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diff --git a/44003.txt b/44003.txt deleted file mode 100644 index 8a1acc5..0000000 --- a/44003.txt +++ /dev/null @@ -1,52328 +0,0 @@ -The Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (3 of 26): Hearings Vol. -III (of 15), by The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - -This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere at no cost and with -almost no restrictions whatsoever. You may copy it, give it away or -re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included -with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.org - - -Title: Warren Commission (3 of 26): Hearings Vol. III (of 15) - -Author: The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - -Release Date: October 19, 2013 [EBook #44003] - -Language: English - -Character set encoding: ASCII - -*** START OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION - HEARINGS V3 *** - - - - -Produced by Curtis Weyant, Charlene Taylor, Charlie Howard, -and the Online Distributed Proofreading Team at -http://www.pgdp.net. Images generously provided by -www.history-matters.com. - - - - - - - - - -Transcriber's Note: Stylized "V", "Y", and "Z" symbols are denoted as -=V=, =Y=, and =Z=. Italicized words are denoted with _underscores_. - - - - - INVESTIGATION OF - THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - HEARINGS - Before the President's Commission - on the Assassination - of President Kennedy - -PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, an Executive order creating a -Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating -to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the -subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and -S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon -the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine -witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas - -_Volume_ III - - -UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE - -WASHINGTON, D.C. - -U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964 - -For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. -Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402 - - - - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE - ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY - - - CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_ - - SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL - SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER - REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS - REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD - MR. ALLEN W. DULLES - MR. JOHN J. McCLOY - - - J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_ - - - _Assistant Counsel_ - - FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS - JOSEPH A. BALL - DAVID W. BELIN - WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr. - MELVIN ARON EISENBERG - BURT W. GRIFFIN - LEON D. HUBERT, Jr. - ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr. - WESLEY J. LIEBELER - NORMAN REDLICH - W. DAVID SLAWSON - ARLEN SPECTER - SAMUEL A. STERN - HOWARD P. WILLENS[A] - -[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the -Department of Justice. - - - _Staff Members_ - - PHILLIP BARSON - EDWARD A. CONROY - JOHN HART ELY - ALFRED GOLDBERG - MURRAY J. LAULICHT - ARTHUR MARMOR - RICHARD M. MOSK - JOHN J. O'BRIEN - STUART POLLAK - ALFREDDA SCOBEY - CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr. - - -Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found -in the Commission's _Report_. - - - - -Preface - - -The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume III: -Ruth Hyde Paine, an acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife; -Howard Leslie Brennan, who was present at the assassination scene; -Bonnie Ray Williams, Harold Norman, James Jarman, Jr., and Roy Sansom -Truly, Texas School Book Depository employees; Marrion L. Baker, -a Dallas motorcycle officer who was present at the assassination -scene; Mrs. Robert A. Reid, who was in the Texas School Book -Depository Building at the time of the assassination; Luke Mooney and -Eugene Boone, Dallas law enforcement officers who took part in the -investigative effort in the Texas School Book Depository Building -immediately following the assassination; Patrolman M. N. McDonald, who -apprehended Lee Harvey Oswald in the Texas Theatre; Helen Markham, -William W. Scoggins, Barbara Jeanette Davis, and Ted Callaway, who -were in the vicinity of the Tippit crime scene; Drs. Charles James -Carrico and Malcolm Perry, who attended President Kennedy at Parkland -Hospital; Robert A. Frazier, a firearms identification expert with the -Federal Bureau of Investigation; Ronald Simmons, an expert in weapons -evaluation with the U.S. Army Weapons Systems Division; Cortlandt -Cunningham, a firearms identification expert with the Federal Bureau of -Investigation; and Joseph D. Nicol, a firearms identification expert -with the Bureau of Criminal Identification and Investigation of the -Illinois Department of Public Safety. - - - - -Contents - - Page - Preface v - - Testimony of-- - Ruth Hyde Paine (resumed) 1 - Howard Leslie Brennan 140, 184, 211 - Bonnie Ray Williams 161 - Harold Norman 186 - James Jarman, Jr 198 - Roy Sansom Truly 212 - Marrion L. Baker 242 - Mrs. Robert A. Reid 270 - Luke Mooney 281 - Eugene Boone 291 - M. N. McDonald 295 - Helen Markham 305, 340 - William W. Scoggins 322 - Barbara Jeanette Davis 342 - Ted Callaway 351 - Charles James Carrico 357 - Malcolm Perry 366 - Robert A. Frazier 390 - Ronald Simmons 441 - Cortlandt Cunningham 451 - Joseph D. Nicol 496 - - -COMMISSION EXHIBITS INTRODUCED - - Exhibit No.: Page - 128 31 - 425 95 - 426 2 - 429 23 - 430 55 - 431 55 - 432 55 - 433 55 - 434 55 - 435 55 - 436 55 - 437 55 - 438 55 - 439 55 - 440 55 - 441 55 - 442 55 - 443 55 - 444 55 - 445 55 - 446 55 - 447 55 - 448 55 - 449 75 - 450 55 - 451 95 - 452 55 - 453 95 - 454 95 - 455 95 - 456 95 - 459-1 134 - 460 132 - 477 147 - 478 147 - 479 147 - 480 157 - 481 157 - 482 157 - 483 183 - 484 183 - 485 183 - 486 183 - 487 183 - 488 183 - 489 183 - 490 183 - 491 183 - 492 183 - 493 194 - 494 217 - 495 217 - 496 217 - 497 236 - 498 236 - 499 236 - 500 236 - 501 236 - 502 236 - 503 236 - 504 236 - 505 236 - 506 236 - 507 280 - 508 290 - 509 290 - 510 290 - 511 290 - 512 290 - 513 290 - 514 290 - 515 290 - 516 294 - 517 294 - 518 302 - 519 302 - 520 304 - 521 314 - 522 314 - 523 314 - 524 314 - 525 317 - 526 317 - 527 321 - 528 324 - 529 339 - 530 339 - 531 339 - 532 339 - 534 339 - 535 341 - 536 341 - 537 357 - 538 357 - 539 357 - 540 392 - 541 394 - 542 397 - 543 399 - 544 399 - 545 399 - 546 401 - 547 401 - 548 403 - 549 403 - 550 404 - 551 404 - 552 404 - 553 404 - 554 404 - 555 405 - 556 408 - 557 415 - 558 415 - 559 419 - 560 420 - 561 423 - 562 424 - 563 425 - 564 427 - 565 427 - 566 430 - 567 432 - 568 432 - 569 435 - 570 436 - 572 437 - 573 439 - 574 441 - 575 441 - 576 444 - 577 444 - 578 444 - 579 445 - 580 445 - 581 445 - 582 445 - 583 445 - 584 445 - 585 450 - 586 450 - 587 453 - 588 453 - 589 454 - 590 454 - 591 454 - 592 459 - 593 462 - 594 465 - 595 466 - 596 467 - 597 467 - 598 467 - 599 467 - 600 467 - 601 467 - 602 474 - 603 474 - 604 474 - 605 474 - 606 488 - 607 489 - 608 499 - 609 500 - 610 500 - 611 501 - 612 502 - 613 505 - 614 506 - 615 506 - 616 507 - 617 507 - 618 507 - 619 508 - 620 508 - 621 508 - 622 508 - 623 508 - 624 509 - 625 512 - - - - -Hearings Before the President's Commission - -on the - -Assassination of President Kennedy - - - - -_Thursday, March 19, 1964--Afternoon Session_ - -TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED - - -The President's Commission reconvened at 2:05 p.m. - -Mr. JENNER. May we proceed, Mr. Chairman? - -Mr. McCLOY. Yes; we are all ready whenever you are. You are still under -affirmation. - -Mr. JENNER. I was at the point of describing the driver's license -application, but before I do that, Mrs. Paine, may I hand you the -document again? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. It has been marked Commission Exhibit 426. You were making -a comparison with the block printing on that document with like block -printing that you testified yesterday had been written in your address -book. I have forgotten the exhibit number, but in your address book -which you have before you---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And the printing in your address book to which you were -addressing yourself was what? - -Mrs. PAINE. His printing of the place where he worked in April of 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. And that is Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall? - -Mrs. PAINE. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. You were comparing that printing which you saw him put in -your address book with what? - -Mrs. PAINE. The printing on this application for Texas driver's license. - -Mr. JENNER. And any particular printing on that application? - -Mrs. PAINE. Was put in in pen. I do observe that the printing here uses -a mixture of upper case and lower case letters, as does the printing in -my phone book, most of it being block upper case. - -Mr. JENNER. The form and shape of the printing in both of the documents -is---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Is similar. - -Mr. JENNER. Similar. All right, thank you. - -Mr. Chairman, because of the point raised by Representative Ford with -particular reference to the word "photographer" which, by the way, is -misspelled, it is spelled "f-o-t-o-g-r-a-p-e-r," and things of that -sort do occur as you have already noted in many of his writings, very -bad misspellings. - -Mr. McCLOY. Yes, his grammar seems to be better than this spelling. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. This form is an official form printed of the Texas -State License Bureau entitled "Application for Texas driver's license," -on the line provided for "name" there appears over "first name", "Lee"; -over "middle name", "Harvey"; and "last name", "Oswald." - -The second set of spaces, provisions for address, birth, and -occupation. He gives as his address, 2545 West Fifth Street, Irving, -Tex. Was that the address of their home when you first became -acquainted with them? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Is the address 2545 Irving Street familiar to you? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think it is 2515. - -Mr. JENNER. Perhaps we will have to have it interpreted by someone -else. It looks like a "4" to me, but it may be a "1." This birthday, -October 18, 1939. The age last birthday 24, and then under "occupation" -appears the word I have already related. Sex, male; color of eyes, -gray; weight, 146 pounds; race the letter "C"; color of hair, brown; -height, 5 foot 9 inches. - -Mr. McCLOY. Were you about to comment? - -Mrs. PAINE. I was interested in his comment on his race. - -Mr. JENNER. I assume C means Caucasian. There are a series of -questions, printed questions on the form, and he answered them, they -are from 1 to 12, as follows: - -"Question No. 1" he answers in the negative, "Have you ever held a -Texas license?" - -Question No. 2. All these are in the negative. - -"Have you ever been examined for a Texas license? - -"Have you ever held a license in any other State? - -"Have you ever been denied a license? - -"Has your license and driving privilege ever been suspended, revoked, -or canceled? - -"Have you ever been convicted of driving while intoxicated, failure to -stop and render aid, aggravated assault with a motor vehicle, negligent -homicide with a motor vehicle or murder with a motor vehicle?" - -All answered in the negative. - -"Have you ever been convicted of any other moving traffic violation? - -"Have you ever been involved as a driver in a motor vehicle accident? - -"Have you ever been subject to losses of consciousness or muscular -control? - -"Have you ever been addicted to the use of intoxicating liquor or -narcotic drugs? - -"Do you have any physical or mental defects?" - -And, lastly: "Have you ever been a patient in a hospital for mental -illness?" - -The side as to the driving record, that is the reverse side, nothing -appears thereon, and nothing in any portion of the form which deals -with the record of his examination. - -I am a little at a loss, Mr. Chairman, as to whether I should offer -this in evidence at the present moment, because it is a document found -among his effects in his room, and my statement of fact would be pure -hearsay. - -Mr. McCLOY. How did we get in possession of it? - -Mr. JENNER. It was supplied to us by the FBI. - -The document was turned over to the FBI. May I withhold offering the -document in evidence? We may have another witness who will be able to -qualify it. - -Mr. McCLOY. Who can identify it? - -Mr. JENNER. I am sure we will have a witness. We do want the document -in evidence. [Commission Exhibit No. 426 is also Commission Exhibit No. -112, vol. I, p. 113.] - -Identifying as Commission Exhibit 427 a form of employee identification -questionnaire of the Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall Co. Please examine Exhibit -427. I direct your attention to the signature in the lower left-hand -corner. Are you familiar with that signature? - -Mrs. PAINE. I can't say I am familiar with it. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussion with Lee Oswald relating -to his obtaining of a position with Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And when did that discussion occur? - -Mrs. PAINE. In New Orleans on the second trip, the end of September, -when we talked about the possibility of Marina's coming back to have -the baby in Texas where they could qualify as one year residents, he -equipped me to show that he had been in Texas, and in Dallas for a year -by giving me a receipt or part of a paycheck, I don't know just what it -was, with the Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall name on it, in October. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the purpose---- - -Mrs. PAINE. He was supplying me with documents that would admit her to -Parkland Hospital as a patient. He gave me his---- - -Mr. JENNER. To show the necessary---- - -Mrs. PAINE. That he had worked with Stovall. - -Mr. JENNER. And the necessary residential period of time in Texas? - -Mrs. PAINE. And the necessary residence. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Did you take that document with you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. And what did you do with it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Took it to Parkland Hospital. And subsequently returned it -to him. - -Mr. JENNER. For what purpose had you gone to Parkland Hospital? - -Mrs. PAINE. For prenatal care and care at the time of the birth of -Marina Oswald's second child. - -Mr. JENNER. And is Parkland Hospital a public institution in Dallas? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. With the necessary residential period of time, Marina, -if she had qualified in that respect, or did qualify then she could -receive treatment with respect to the birth of her child either at no -cost to her or at reduced cost, is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. I understood it to be cost fitted to their ability to pay. - -Mr. JENNER. And so you did, yourself, affirmatively arrange that? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. What arrangement? - -Mr. JENNER. Affirmatively. You did it yourself? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. We have now reached the summer period of 1963, and covered -some of it in part. My recollection of your testimony is that you -vacationed in the summer of 1963. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. You visited various members of your family up north? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You departed Irving, Tex., some time in July, is that -correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. I believe it was the 27th of July. - -Mr. JENNER. And just tell us whom of your family you visited and where -you visited, without telling us what you did. - -Mrs. PAINE. I visited my mother-in-law and stepfather-in-law. - -Mr. JENNER. That is Mr. and Mrs. Young, Arthur Young? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. In Paoli, Pa.? - -Mrs. PAINE. I first went to Naushon Island off the coast of -Massachusetts. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you driving in the station wagon? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was. - -Mr. JENNER. With your children? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you went from there to where? Whom did you visit next? - -Mrs. PAINE. How detailed do you want to be? - -Mr. JENNER. Just tell us whom you visited is all. - -Mrs. PAINE. I stopped and saw Miss Mary Forman, in Connecticut, one -night. - -Mr. JENNER. She is an old friend of yours? - -Mrs. PAINE. She is an old friend of mine from Columbus, Ohio, and went -on then to Paoli the next day, and stayed there, again with the Youngs, -until the early part of September. - -Mr. McCLOY. Is that Paoli, Pa.? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you visit your mother and your father or either of them? - -Mrs. PAINE. My father came to Paoli and visited me there. - -Mr. JENNER. Did I ask you yesterday, Mrs. Paine, and please forgive me -if this is a repetition, the occupation of your father. - -Mrs. PAINE. He is an insurance underwriter; he composes the fine print. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he at one time an actuary? - -Mrs. PAINE. What does actuary mean? - -Mr. JENNER. A man who computes the probabilities and works in -connection with---- - -Mrs. PAINE. He may be. I am not certain exactly what his position is. - -Mr. JENNER. For what company, please? - -Mrs. PAINE. The Nationwide Insurance Company. - -Mr. JENNER. Where is their main office? - -Mrs. PAINE. In Columbus, Ohio. - -Mr. JENNER. Your father visited you at Paoli. Did you see your mother -during that summer period? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. I saw her briefly on the way to Naushon Island, -and then again I saw her on my way back to the south and west, in -Columbus, Ohio. - -Mr. JENNER. At Columbus, she was living there then? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see your sister on that trip? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. And where did you see her? - -Mrs. PAINE. She lives in suburban Washington, and I saw here there -at her home. I also saw Michael's brother, and his wife, who live in -Baltimore. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you identify Michael's brother, please? - -Mrs. PAINE. His name is Cameron Paine, C-a-m-e-r-o-n. - -Mr. JENNER. What is his occupation or business? - -Mrs. PAINE. He works with Social Security. - -Mr. JENNER. For the State or the United States Government? - -Mrs. PAINE. For the United States Government. - -Mr. JENNER. That covers generally the people you visited that summer? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. I also visited my brother, in Yellow Springs, Ohio. - -Mr. JENNER. That is your brother, the physician? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. I visited with friends in the Philadelphia -area, while I was at Paoli. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you mean by the term "friends" there to mean in the -sense I would mean friends? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Or members of the Friends Society? - -Mrs. PAINE. Some were both, but I meant it as personal friends. And -then I saw also friends, also both, capital F and small, in Richmond, -Ind., and then from there I headed directly south to New Orleans. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mrs. PAINE. Shall I go on to arrival at New Orleans? - -Mr. JENNER. This spanned a period of a little over 2 months, did it not? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was just short of 2 months total that I was away from my -home in Irving. - -Mr. JENNER. And in the meantime you had had the correspondence with -Marina that you had related this morning, during the course of your -going along, had you? - -Mrs. PAINE. During that vacation she and I exchanged one letter each. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. Had you advised her that you were coming to New -Orleans? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. For what purpose? - -Mrs. PAINE. To visit. And to talk. - -Mr. JENNER. About what? - -Mrs. PAINE. To see if it was appropriate for her to come to my house -for the birth of the baby. - -Mr. JENNER. At that moment, at that time, when you were about to return -or about to go to New Orleans, this concept was limited to her coming -to be with you for the birth of the child? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. At least temporarily she abandoned the notion of joining -you on a semipermanent basis? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was abandoned. It was not taken up again. - -Mr. JENNER. You arrived in New Orleans? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. The 20th of September. - -Mr. McCLOY. Maybe you are going to get to this. Maybe I am -anticipating your case, so to speak, but during these visits that you -paid to your friends on this trip, did you talk about your association -with Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. McCLOY. You did? - -Mrs. PAINE. Quite a lot. It was rather an important thing to me. - -Mr. JENNER. I have some questions to put to Mrs. Paine on that subject, -but they are in the area of the collateral that I spoke of this -morning, so I did not go into them at the moment. - -Now, starting with your arrival in New Orleans, you got there in the -morning or afternoon? - -Mrs. PAINE. I arrived midafternoon, as I remember. - -Mr. JENNER. And you went directly to their home, did you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you find when you reached the home? - -Mrs. PAINE. I was expected. They had groceries bought. - -Mr. JENNER. Who was home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Marina and Lee, and the baby June. - -Mr. JENNER. I don't have a calendar before me. The 20th of September is -what day of the week? - -Mrs. PAINE. Is a Friday. - -Mr. JENNER. 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. I spent the night there that night and the succeeding 2 -nights. Lee who bought the groceries while I was there, was host. At -one point Mrs. Ruth Kloepfer, who has been previously mentioned, came -and visited with her sister--excuse me, with her two daughters. This -was after I had made a telephone call to her. - -Mr. JENNER. These daughters were adults or were they children? - -Mrs. PAINE. The daughters were grown daughters. - -Mr. JENNER. Grown? - -Mrs. PAINE. In college, college-age daughters, and one had been -studying Russian, didn't know very much. I was impressed with the role -that Lee took of the general host, talking with them, looking over some -slides that one of the daughters had brought of her trip, recent trip -to Russia, showing sights that they recognized, I guess, in Moscow. - -Mr. JENNER. That the girls recognized? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; that Lee and Marina recognized of Moscow, or Lee did, -at least. And he was very outgoing and warm and friendly. He seemed -in good spirits that weekend. I found him--he made a much better -impression on me, I will say, that weekend than the last weekend I had -seen him, which was in May. - -I could see, and it was the first time that I felt that he was -concerned about his wife's physical welfare and about where she could -go to have the baby, and he seemed distinctly relieved to consider the -possibility of her going to Dallas County and getting care through -Parkland Hospital, and clearly pleased that I wanted to offer this, and -pleased to have her go, which relieved my mind a good deal. - -I hadn't wanted to have such an arrangement come about without his -being interested in having it that way. - -Mr. JENNER. During the course of this, did you say you were there 3 -days? - -Mrs. PAINE. Three nights, two days. - -Mr. JENNER. Two days and three nights; there was then a discussion -between yourself and Marina, yourself on the one hand, Marina and Lee -on the other, in which it was determined that Marina would return with -you to Irving, Tex., for the purpose of having the birth of her child -in Irving? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And Lee did participate in those discussions? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, during the course of the time you were there, was -there any discussion of the fact that Lee was at that time jobless and -would be seeking a position? - -Mrs. PAINE. I knew from Marina's letters that he was out of work. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. We did have one short conversation and this was in English. -I began it. He was willing to proceed in English. - -Mr. JENNER. This is one of the few occasions in which he permitted -himself to speak with you in English? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. I asked him if he thought his application -was any impediment to his getting and keeping a job. He said he didn't -know, and went on to say that he had already lost his job when he was -arrested for passing out pro-Cuba literature here in New Orleans. And -he said he spent the night in jail, and I said, "Did Marina know that?" - -"Yes, she knew it." - -Mr. JENNER. I want you to finish the conversation. - -Mrs. PAINE. This was as much of a revelation, accurate revelation of -what he had done as I ever got from him. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine. I am going to get into that with you. - -I would like to have you finish the conversation first before you give -your reaction. - -Mrs. PAINE. That was the end of it. - -Mr. JENNER. That was the end? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, with respect to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee -activity, had you up to this moment heard of Lee Harvey Oswald's -activities, if any, of any character and to any extent, with respect to -the Fair Play for Cuba Committee? - -Mrs. PAINE. I had not heard of any such activities. - -The name of the committee was not mentioned. I did not know the -name of the committee until it appeared in the newspapers after the -assassination. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, how did Lee Harvey Oswald describe that? What did he -say? - -Mrs. PAINE. He said that he was passing out pro-Castro or pro-Cuba -literature, and that there were some anti-Castro people who also caused -some disturbance, and that he had spent the night in jail. - -Mr. JENNER. And did I understand you correctly to say that he assigned -that as a possible---- - -Mrs. PAINE. No, on the contrary. - -Mr. JENNER. As possibly having had some effect on his loss of position? - -Mrs. PAINE. On the contrary, he made the point that he had already lost -his job before this happened. - -Mr. JENNER. That he had lost his position before the Fair Play for Cuba -incident? - -Mrs. PAINE. So that he did not know, he could not cite an instance -where his application had made it difficult for him in his work. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you had conversation with Marina prior to this time in -which she might have suggested or did suggest that his application and -his history of having gone to Russia and then returned to the United -States as having an adverse effect on his efforts to obtain employment? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing of that nature was said. - -Mr. JENNER. That was never discussed in your presence? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it ever discussed in your presence or raised in your -presence by anybody other than Lee Harvey Oswald or Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. Not to my recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it ever discussed with you by anybody even though they -weren't present? By "they" I mean Lee and Marina. You recall none? This -is the first instance of any discussion of that character, and you -raised it, did you? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have exhausted your recollection of this particular -conversation, have you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I gather from your testimony that you found the relations -between Marina and Lee improved on this occasion? - -Mrs. PAINE. They certainly appeared to be improved. The weekend time -was certainly much more comfortable than the weekend in early May had -been when I first was in New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. You described yesterday an irritability as between Marina -and Lee when you were there in the spring? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And that that had continued during all the time you were in -New Orleans. You found the situation different? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. On your return in the fall? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you have already related the incident about touring -Bourbon Street, and that occurred on this occasion, did it? - -Mrs. PAINE. During that weekend, yes; those days. - -Mr. JENNER. And Lee Harvey Oswald stayed home that evening or that day. -It was late in the day, was it, rather than the evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was early evening. - -Mr. JENNER. Early evening. What did he do at home, do you know? - -Mrs. PAINE. When we got back Marina noticed that the dishes had been -cleaned up and put away. I take it back, they had been washed, not put -away. And I believe he did some packing. - -Mr. JENNER. In anticipation of your returning to Irving, Tex., with -Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -I was impressed during these 2 days with his willingness to help with -the packing. He did virtually all the packing and all the loading of -the things into the car. I simply thought that gentlemanly of him -at the time. I have wondered since whether he wasn't doing it by -preference to having me handle it. - -Mr. JENNER. I was about to ask you your impression in that direction. -Did he seem eager to do the packing? - -Mrs. PAINE. He did, distinctly. - -Mr. JENNER. Distinctly eager? - -Mrs. PAINE. I recall he began as early, you see, as Saturday night and -we left Tuesday morning. - -Mr. JENNER. And you are aware of the fact he did some packing while you -and Marina were on tour? - -Mrs. PAINE. It couldn't have been Saturday night, because I only -arrived on Saturday. More likely it was Sunday. Is Bourbon Street open -on Sunday? - -Mr. JENNER. Bourbon Street is open all the time. - -Mrs. PAINE. Then it would have to be---- - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling at the time that he was quite -eager to do the packing? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And did you have the feeling it was just a touch out of the -ordinary? - -Mrs. PAINE. It didn't occur to me that it was. - -Mr. JENNER. But on reflection now, you think it was out of the ordinary? - -Mrs. PAINE. On reflection now I think it wasn't simply a gesture of the -gentleman. - -Mr. JENNER. But at the time it didn't arouse enough interest on your -part to have a question in your mind? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I would have expected it of other men, but this was the -first I saw him taking that much interest. - -Mr. JENNER. It did arrest your attention on that score, in any event? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you were there for 2 full days and 3 evenings. Would -you tell us, conserving your description in your words, what did you do -during these 2 days and 3 nights. When I say "you", I am including all -three of you. - -Mrs. PAINE. Of course, afternoons we usually spent in rest for the -children, having all small children, all of us having small children. - -Mr. JENNER. Whenever this doesn't include Lee Harvey Oswald would you -be good enough to tell us? - -Mrs. PAINE. When he was not present? - -Mr. JENNER. That is right. - -Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is that he was present most of the weekend. -He went out to buy groceries, came in with a cheery call to his two -girls, saying, "Yabutchski," which means girls, the Russian word for -girls, as he came in the door. It was more like Harvey than I had seen -him before. He remembered this time. I saw him reading a pocketbook. - -Mr. JENNER. The Commission is interested in his readings. To the best -of your ability to recall, tell us. You noticed it now, of course. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I don't recall the title of it. I do recall that I -loaned him a pocketbook at one point. I can't even recall what it was -about. But I might if I saw it. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it a book on any political subject? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Representative FORD. Was it an English book? - -Mrs. PAINE. But it was in English, unless it was a parallel text of -Russian-English short stories, something like that, I can't remember. -It might have been Reid's Ten Days That Shook the World, or something -like that, but I am not at all certain. I would have thought he would -have read that, anyway. - -Representative FORD. Was it a book that you recall having had with you -that summer? Ten Days---- - -Mrs. PAINE. It is a book I should still own, and I don't recall for -sure whether I have that one. - -Representative FORD. Ten Days That Shook the World? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am very shaky in my memory. I had prepared a collection -of books for the course in Russian at Saint Marks School, and they -included history and literature and English. - -Representative FORD. But you were still anticipating teaching Russian -at Saint Marks School in Irving? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right, and this was just part of a bibliography of -things of interest that included some of the more historical texts from -many points of view regarding Soviet life. - -Representative FORD. I interrupted you. - -Mr. JENNER. I was asking you to tell us in general what was done during -those 2 days and 3 nights. - -Mrs. PAINE. We went out to wash diapers at the local washiteria, and -stayed while they were done and went back. - -Mr. JENNER. You and Lee? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't think that he went. My recollection is that Marina -and I went. - -Mr. JENNER. He remained home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you visit with any of their in-laws? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did they visit while you were there? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did they come there? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. I have already referred to a visit from Mrs. Kloepfer, -with her two girls which must have been the day before we left or -Monday. - -No, Sunday, it must have been Sunday. It wasn't much time altogether, -because Sunday was the day before we left. - -Mr. JENNER. Is Mrs. Kloepfer a native American? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have no idea. She speaks natively. - -Mr. JENNER. But she does have a command of the Russian language? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no, no. Her daughter has had 1 year of Russian in -college, and was much too shy to begin to say anything, thoroughly -overwhelmed by meeting someone who really spoke. - -Mr. JENNER. I must have misinterpreted your testimony this morning. - -Mrs. PAINE. Her daughter had visited in the Soviet Union just recently -and had slides that she had taken that summer. - -Mr. JENNER. But Mrs. Kloepfer, as far as you are informed, had no -command of the Russian language? - -Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely none. She was the only person I knew to try to -contact to ask if she knew or could find anyone in New Orleans who knew -Russian, and she said she didn't know anyone, over the phone. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mrs. PAINE. And I, therefore, also tried to get Mrs. Blanchard to seek -out someone who could talk to Marina. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Blanchard had no command of the Russian language, as -far as you knew? - -Mrs. PAINE. I would be certain she didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you described for us generally the course of events in -the 2 days and 3 nights you were there? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, much of the last portion, some of the last portion of -Sunday was spent packing up. It was a very well loaded automobile by -then, because I already had a great many of my own, including a boat -on the top of the car to which we attached the playpen, stroller, and -other things on top. I should describe in detail the packing, which was -another thing that made me feel that he did care for his wife. - -We left on Monday morning, yes, Monday morning early, the 23d, and it -seemed to me he was very sorry to see her go. They kissed goodbye and -we got in the car and I started down intending really to go no farther -than the first gas station because I had a soft rear tire and I wasn't -going to have a flat with this great pile of goods on top of not only -my car but my spare, so I went down to the first gas station that was -open a couple blocks down, and prepared to buy a tire. - -Lee having watched us, walked down to the gas station and talked and -visited while I arranged to have the tire changed, bought a new one -and had it changed. I felt he wished or thought he should be offering -something toward the cost of the tire. He said, "That sure is going to -cost a lot, isn't it?" And I said, "Yes; but car owners have to expect -that." This is as close as he came to offering financial help. But it -was at least a gesture. - -Mr. JENNER. Then there was no financial help given you? - -Mrs. PAINE. There was no financial help. - -Mr. JENNER. Given you by Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. In connection with the return of Marina to Irving, Tex.? - -Mrs. PAINE. And he did not at this time give her, so far as I know, any -small change or petty cash to take with her, whereas when he left her -in late April to go to my house, she to go to my house, and he to go to -New Orleans, he left $10 or so with her. She spent that on incidentals. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, did he ever, during all of the period of your -acquaintance with the Oswalds, ever offer any reimbursement financially -or anything at all to you? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; he never offered anything to me. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion between you and him on the subject? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. As close as we came to such discussion was saying that -when they had enough money and perhaps after Christmas they would get -an apartment again, and I judged, felt that he was saving money towards -renting a furnished apartment for his family. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I used the term "offer." Did he ever offer? Did he in -fact ever give you any money? - -Mrs. PAINE. He in fact never gave me any money, either. He did give -Marina. - -Mr. JENNER. The one incident of which you are speaking or on other -occasions? - -Mrs. PAINE. There was that one incident in April. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. He did give her, I think, $10, just prior, or some time -close to the time of the assassination, because she planned to buy some -shoes. - -Mr. JENNER. Shoes for herself, or her children? - -Mrs. PAINE. For herself, flats. But when he gave that to her I am not -certain. I do know that we definitely planned to go out on Friday -afternoon, the 22d of November, to buy those shoes. We did not go. - -Mr. JENNER. That is you girls planned to do that? - -Mrs. PAINE. She and I did; yes. - -Representative FORD. Mr. Jenner, do you plan to ask questions about the -process of packing of the car? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; I do. Now, this improvement in the attitude of Lee -Harvey Oswald, arrested your deliberate attention--didn't it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it did. It was really the first I had felt any -sympathy for him at all. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any feeling that he, in turn, felt that he -might not be seeing Marina any more? - -Mrs. PAINE. I had no feeling of that whatever. - -Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever. - -Mrs. PAINE. He told me that he was going to try to look for work in -Houston, and possibly in Philadelphia; these were the two names he -mentioned. - -Mr. JENNER. We are interested in that, in this particular phase of the -investigation. Did he make that statement in your presence, in the -presence of Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it that this was elicited by a discussion of the -subject of his going to look for work after you girls had left, is that -correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. About what he would do after we left? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, would you repeat just what he said on that subject? - -Mrs. PAINE. He told me that he was going to go to Houston to look for -work, or possibly to Philadelphia. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about having any acquaintances or -friends in either of those towns? - -Mrs. PAINE. He did. You recalled to my mind he said he had a friend in -Houston. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he mention other towns he might undertake to visit? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't. Or any other friends. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any inference or did you infer from anything he -said or which might have been said in your presence that after you -girls left he intended to leave New Orleans? To look---- - -Mrs. PAINE. He was definitely planning to leave New Orleans after we -left. - -Mr. JENNER. Promptly? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You had that definite impression? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And he put it in terms of leaving New Orleans to go to -Houston, or what was the other town? - -Mrs. PAINE. Possibly Philadelphia. - -Mr. JENNER. Possibly Philadelphia. Now, during all that weekend, was -there any discussion of anybody going to Mexico? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of Mexico discussed at any time and in any -respect? - -Mrs. PAINE. Not at any time nor any respect. - -Mr. JENNER. On the trip back to Irving, Tex., did Marina say anything -on the subject of Mexico? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you girls discuss what Lee was going to do during this -interim period? - -Mrs. PAINE. Only to the extent that he was looking for a job, but I -think that discussion, my memory of it comes from a discussion with Lee -rather than a discussion with her. I may say that we never talked about -any particular time, he would see Marina again. - -Mr. JENNER. You did not? - -Mrs. PAINE. He kissed her a very fond goodbye, both at home and then -again at the gas station, and I felt he cared and he would certainly -see her. And this I recalled the other night. It should be put in here. -As he was giving me this material, I have already mentioned, that -indicated his claim to 1 year residence in Texas, I can't remember -just what I said that elicited it from him, but some reference to, -shall I say that you have gone, or how can I--what shall I say about -the husband, where is the husband? - -Mr. JENNER. Do the best in your own words. - -Mrs. PAINE. Shall I say that you have gone away or away looking for -work or something? What shall I say about you? - -Mr. JENNER. This is Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. This is in English now, this one English conversation. - -Mr. JENNER. By you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Apropos of being prepared to admit her to Parkland. I -asked, what shall I say about him, that he is gone or what? - -He said, "Oh, no, that might appear that I had abandoned her." - -And I was glad to hear him say that he didn't at all want it to appear -or to feel of himself that he had abandoned her. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything as to what representations you might -make to Parkland Hospital and other State authorities in that respect? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. On the trip back to--may I defer the packing until -Representative Ford returns--on the trip back to Irving, Tex., did you -and Marina discuss the subject matter of Dee's going to Houston, Tex., -or to Philadelphia to look for a job? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; we didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. At any time during the weekend you were in New Orleans or -driving from New Orleans to Irving, Tex., was the friend identified, -the supposed friend? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. In Houston, identified? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I remember wondering if there was one. - -Mr. JENNER. You wondered at the time? - -Mrs. PAINE. I wondered to myself if there was one. - -Mr. JENNER. What made you wonder? - -Mrs. PAINE. I may say, also, I wondered, as I have already indicated -for the Commission, I had wondered, from time to time, whether this -was a man who was working as a spy or in any way a threat to the -Nation, and I thought, "This is the first I have heard anything about a -contact. I am interested to know if this is a real thing or something -unreal." And waited to see really whether I would learn any more about -it. But this thought crossed my mind. - -Mr. JENNER. It did? Now, many of my questions are directed towards -trying to find out what this man did with his time. When he went job -hunting, according to some of the records here, he appeared to return -home rather promptly. That is, he would leave in the morning but he -would be home before noontime. - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh? - -Mr. JENNER. Did you notice anything of that nature? - -Mrs. PAINE. I never saw him when he was job hunting. The times in -New Orleans, of course, I wasn't there. The times in April he was -job hunting from a base of 214 Neely Street, and in October he was -operating from the base of the room on Beckley Street. So I never saw -him. - -Mr. JENNER. So that as far as--this I would like to bring out, Mr. -Chairman--as far as your contact with Lee Harvey Oswald as such, Mrs. -Paine, your opportunities for knowing what he did with his time were -limited, were they not? - -Mrs. PAINE. They were limited. - -Mr. JENNER. That is in the spring, there was this New Orleans period -when he was absent in New Orleans altogether during the 2 weeks that -Marina was with you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. It is the period preceding the trip to New Orleans that -they lived a little distance from you, and that was in a period of your -really becoming more acquainted with them. Were you aware of what Mr. -Oswald was doing during the daytime, or evening along in that period of -time? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. In the fall when you saw him then for 2 days and 3 nights -in the early fall of 1963, he was out of work. He was at the home -substantially all of that time? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You returned to Irving, then, and you didn't see him until -he appeared as you testified this morning, on October 4, 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, he was in your home from October 4, 1963, until what -was it--the 15th of October? Is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. He was not? - -Mrs. PAINE. Not at all. He was in the home for the weekend of October -4. I then took him to the bus around noon on the 7th, that is a Monday, -to the Intercity Bus between Irving and Dallas. You can't walk to it -from my house. There is no way to get anywhere from my house unless you -use a car. - -Mr. JENNER. We are interested in that, also, Mrs. Paine, about -his ability to get to your home from whatever means of public -transportation there was. Would you be good enough to describe the -problems in that connection? - -Mrs. PAINE. He called on the afternoon of the 4th. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you give us the problems first, the physical -problems? Where was the bus located? What was the bus terminal? How far -was it from your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. The bus terminal in Irving where you could get a bus going -to Dallas was several miles away, 2 to 3 miles away from my home, a 10 -minute car ride. - -Mr. JENNER. And what means of transportation was there from the bus -terminal to your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Walking? - -Mr. JENNER. Any public transportation. - -Mrs. PAINE. There was nothing public. - -Mr. JENNER. You would have to hitchhike or walk or be driven? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, there were occasions when you would have -to go and pick him up at the bus terminal? - -Mrs. PAINE. I recall at least one such occasion, and that was on the -12th of October, a Saturday, which was the next time he came out. - -Mr. JENNER. That was the next time following the October 4 weekend? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. When was the first time that you heard, or had any notice -of the fact that this man had been in Mexico, or possibly may have been -in Mexico? - -Mrs. PAINE. They are two different questions. I will answer the first -one. I heard that he had been in Mexico after the assassination in one -of the papers. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that the first time? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that was the first time. Looking back then, with that -knowledge, I could see that I might have guessed this from two other -things that had happened. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, give us them in sequence, please. - -Mrs. PAINE. One was, I can describe by an incident that took place at -our home, I am not certain which weekend, one of the times that Lee was -out. He wanted to drill a hole in a silver coin for Marina so she could -wear it around her neck, and presumed to use my husband's drill press, -which is one of the many things in the garage, and I complained. But he -convinced me that he knew how to operate it and knew just what he was -doing. - -So I said, all right, and he proceeded to drill a hole in this coin, -and then Marina showed it to me later. I didn't look closely at it. It -wasn't until--although I could have perfectly well in this situation. I -did see that it was a foreign coin. - -Mr. JENNER. It was a what? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was a foreign coin. It was not a coin I recognized. It -was about the size of a silver dollar, but not as thick, as I remember -it. And it was not then until perhaps a week or something less after -the assassination when an FBI agent asked me was there anything left -in the house that would be pertinent, and he and I went together and -looked in the drawer in the room where Marina had been staying, and -found there this drilled coin, looked at it closely, and it was a peso, -the Republic of Mexico. This is the first I had looked at it closely. -Also, with this peso was a Spanish-English Dictionary. - -My tendency to be very hesitant to look into other people's things was -rather put aside at this point, and I was very curious to see what this -book was, and I observed that the price of it, or what I took to be the -price was in a corner at the front was not in English money, and at the -back in his hand or somebody's hand in small scribble was the notation, -"Buy tickets for bull fight, get silver bracelet for Marina" and there -in the drawer also was a silver bracelet with the name Marina on it, -which I took to be associated with this notation. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it inscribed on the bracelet? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was inscribed, the name Marina. And some picture -postcards with no message, just a picture of Mexico City in this -dictionary, and these I gave to the---- - -Mr. JENNER. Had you seen any of these items in your home at anytime -prior to this occasion that you have now described? - -Mrs. PAINE. None of these items except the peso which I had not noticed -to be that, seen it, of course. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, that is one incident. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is one incident. Another refers to a rough draft of a -letter that Lee wrote and left this rough draft on my secretary desk. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you describe the incident? In the meantime, I will -obtain the rough draft here among my notes. - -Mrs. PAINE. All right. This was on the morning of November 9, Saturday. -He asked to use my typewriter, and I said he might. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Would you please state to the Commission why you -are reasonably firm that it was the morning of November 9? What arrests -your attention to that particular date? - -Mrs. PAINE. Because I remember the weekend that this note or rough -draft remained on my secretary desk. He spent the weekend on it. And -the weekend was close and its residence on that desk was stopped also -on the evening of Sunday, the 10th, when I moved everything in the -living room around; the whole arrangement of the furniture was changed, -so that I am very clear in my mind as to what weekend this was. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead. - -Mrs. PAINE. He was using the typewriter. I came and put June in her -high-chair near him at the table where he was typing, and he moved -something over what he was typing from, which aroused my curiosity. - -Mr. JENNER. Why did that arouse your curiosity? - -Mrs. PAINE. It appeared he didn't want me to see what he was writing or -to whom he was writing. I didn't know why he had covered it. If I had -peered around him, I could have looked at the typewriter and the page -in it, but I didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. It did make you curious? - -Mrs. PAINE. It did make me curious. Then, later that day, I noticed a -scrawling handwriting on a piece of paper on the corner at the top of -my secretary desk in the living room. It remained there. - -Sunday morning I was the first one up. I took a closer look at this, -a folded sheet of paper folded at the middle. The first sentence -arrested me because I knew it to be false. And for this reason I then -proceeded---- - -Mr. JENNER. Would you just hold it at that moment. This is for purposes -of identification, Mr. Chairman, rather than admission of the document -in evidence. I have marked pages 321 and 322 of Commission Document No. -385 generally referred to by the staff as the Gemberling Report. He is -an FBI agent. I have now placed that before the witness. You examined -that yesterday with me, did you not, Mrs. Paine? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. The document I am now showing you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that a transcript, a literal transcript of the document -you saw? - -Mrs. PAINE. Of course the document was in English, transcribing of what -was said; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. By transcript I meant that it has been retyped, that it is -literal. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is the document; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That is interesting. You noticed that the document was in -English. - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You saw it. And it was folded at what point, now that you -have the transcript of it before you? - -Mrs. PAINE. At the top of what I could see of the paper. In other -words, it was just below the fold. It said, "The FBI is not now -interested in my activities." - -Mr. JENNER. Is that what arrested your attention? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you do? - -Mrs. PAINE. I then proceeded to read the whole note, wondering, knowing -this to be false, wondering why he was saying it. I was irritated to -have him writing a falsehood on my typewriter, I may say, too. I felt I -had some cause to look at it. - -Mr. JENNER. May I have your permission, Mr. Chairman. The document is -short. It is relevant to the witness' testimony, and might I read it -aloud in the record to draw your attention to it? - -Mr. McCLOY. Without objection. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, would you help me by reading it, since you have -it there. - -Mrs. PAINE. Do you want me to leave out all the crossed out---- - -Mr. JENNER. No; I wish you would indicate that too. - -Mrs. PAINE. "Dear Sirs: - -"This is to inform you of events since my interview with comrade -Kostine in the Embassy of the Soviet Union, Mexico City, Mexico." - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mrs. PAINE. He typed it early in the morning of that day because after -he typed it we went to the place where you get the test for drivers. It -was that same day. - -Mr. JENNER. It was election day and the driver's license place was -closed, is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And that was November 9? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now you have reached the point where you are reading the -letter on the morning of November 10. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right; after I had noticed that it lay on my desk -the previous evening. - -"I was unable to remain in Mexico City (because I considered -useless--)"--because--it is crossed out. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mr. Chairman. In this transcript wherever there -are words stricken out, the transcriber has placed those words in -parenthesis and transcribed the words, but then has written the words -"crossed out" to indicate in the original the words crossed out. - -Proceed, Mrs. Paine. - -Mrs. PAINE. "Indefinitely because of my (visa--crossed out) Mexican -visa restrictions which was for 15 days only. - -"(I had a--crossed out) I could not take a chance on applying for an -extension unless I used my real name so I returned to the U.S. - -"I and Marina Nicholyeva are now living in Dallas, Texas. (You all -ready ha--crossed out). - -"The FBI is not now interested in my activities in the progressive -organization FPCC of which I was secretary in (New Orleans, -La.--crossed out) New Orleans, Louisiana since I (am--crossed out) no -longer (connected with--crossed out) live in that state. - -"(November the November--crossed out) the FBI has visited us here in -Texas on November 1st. Agent of the FBI James P. Hasty warned me that -if I attempt to engage in FPCC activities in Texas the FBI will again -take an 'interest' in me. The agent also 'suggested' that my wife could -'remain in the U.S. under FBI protection', that is, she could (refuse -to return to the--crossed out) defect from the Soviet Union. Of course -I and my wife strongly protested these tactics by the notorious FBI. - -"(It was unfortun that the Soviet Embassy was unable to aid me in -Mexico City but--crossed out) I had not planned to contact the Mexico -City Embassy at all so of course they were unprepared for me. Had I -been able to reach Havana as planned (I could have contacted--crossed -out) the Soviet Embassy there (for the completion of would have -been able to help me get the necessary documents I required assist -me--crossed out) would have had time to assist me, but of course the -stuip Cuban consule was at fault here. I am glad he has since been -replaced by another." - -Mr. JENNER. Now I would like to ask you a few questions about your -reaction to that. You had read that in the quiet of your living room on -Sunday morning, the 10th of November. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And there were a number of things in that that you thought -were untrue. - -Mrs. PAINE. Several things I knew to be untrue. - -Mr. JENNER. You knew to be untrue. Were there things in there that -alarmed you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I would say so. - -Mr. JENNER. What were they? - -Mrs. PAINE. To me this--well, I read it and decided to make a copy. - -Mr. JENNER. Would having the document back before you help you? - -Mrs. PAINE. No, no. I was just trying to think what to say first. And -decided that I should have such a copy to give to an FBI agent coming -again, or to call. I was undecided what to do. Meantime I made a copy. - -Mr. JENNER. But you did have the instinct to report this to the FBI? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you made a copy of the document? - -Mrs. PAINE. And I made a copy of the document which should be among -your papers, because they have that too. And after having made it, -while the shower was running, I am not used to subterfuge in any way, -but then I put it back where it had been and it lay the rest of Sunday -on my desk top, and of course I observed this too. - -Mr. JENNER. That is that Lee didn't put it away, just left it out in -the room? - -Mrs. PAINE. That he didn't put it away or didn't seem to care or notice -or didn't recall that he had a rough draft lying around. I observed it -was untrue that the FBI was no longer interested in him. I observed it -was untrue that the FBI came---- - -Mr. JENNER. Why did you observe that that was untrue? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, the FBI came and they asked me, they said---- - -Mr. JENNER. Had the FBI been making inquiries of you prior to that time? - -Mrs. PAINE. They had been twice. - -Mr. JENNER. November 1 and---- - -Mrs. PAINE. November 1, and they told me the 5. I made no record of it -whatever. - -Mr. JENNER. But it was a few days later? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; a few days later. And the first visit I understood to -be a visit to convey to Marina that if any blackmail pressure was being -put upon her, because of relatives back home, that she was invited, if -she wished, to talk about this to the FBI. This is a far cry from being -told she could defect from the Soviet Union, very strong words, and -false both. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear anything at all insofar as the FBI is -concerned reported to you by Marina or Lee Harvey Oswald during all of -your acquaintance with either of them of any suggestion by the FBI or -anybody else that Marina defect in that context to the United States? - -Mrs. PAINE. No, absolutely not. - -Mr. JENNER. Or anything of similar import? - -Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of similar import. - -Mr. JENNER. I limited it to the FBI. Any agency of the Government of -the United States? - -Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of that sort. - -Mr. JENNER. And did you see or observe anything during all of that -period of your acquaintance, which stimulated you to think at all or -have any notion that any agency of the Government of the United States -was seeking to induce her to defect? - -Mrs. PAINE. To the United States? - -Mr. JENNER. To the United States. - -Mrs. PAINE. No, and her terminology in view of it was so completely -different from such stereotyped and loaded words that I was seeing as I -read this. What I was most struck with was what kind of man is this. - -Mr. JENNER. Is who? - -Mrs. PAINE. Why is Lee Oswald writing this? What kind of man? Here is -a false statement that she was invited to defect, false statement that -the FBI is no longer interested, false statement that he was present, -"they visited I and my wife." - -Mr. JENNER. Was he present? - -Mrs. PAINE. He was not present. False statement that "I and my wife -protested vigorously." Having not been present he could not protest. - -Mr. JENNER. He was not present when the FBI interviewed you on November -1. Was Marina present then? - -Mrs. PAINE. She was present. - -Mr. JENNER. And was Marina present when the FBI came later on November -5? - -Mrs. PAINE. She came into the room just after basically the very short -visit was concluded. - -Mr. JENNER. The second interview was a rather short one? - -Mrs. PAINE. The second interview was conducted standing up. He simply -asked me did I know the address. My memory had been refreshed by him -since. - -Mr. JENNER. The first interview, however, was a rather lengthly one? - -Mrs. PAINE. But it was not strictly speaking an interview. - -Mr. JENNER. What was it? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was, as Mr. Hosty has described to me later, and I think -this was my impression too of it at the time, an informal opening for -confidence. He presented himself. He talked. We conversed about the -weather, about Texas, about the end of the last World War and changes -in Germany at the time. - -He mentioned that the FBI is very careful in their investigations not -to bring anyone they suspect in public light until they have evidence -to convict him in a proper court of law, that they did not convict by -hearsay or public accusation. - -He asked me, and here I am answering why I thought it was false to say -the FBI is no longer interested in Lee Oswald; he asked first of all if -I knew did Lee live there, and I said "No." Did I know where he lived? -No, I didn't, but that it was in Dallas. - -Did I know where he worked? Yes, I did. - -And I said I thought Lee was very worried about losing this job, and -the agent said that well, it wasn't their custom to approach the -employer directly. I said that Lee would be there on the weekend, so -far as I knew, that he could be seen then, if he was interested in -talking to Lee. - -I want to return now to the fact that I had seen these gross falsehoods -and strong words, concluding with "notorious FBI" in this letter, -and gone to say I wondered whether any of it was true, including the -reference to going to Mexico, including the reference to using a false -name, and I still wonder if that was true or false that he used an -assumed name, though I no longer wonder whether he had actually gone. - -Mr. JENNER. There was a subsequent incident in which you did learn that -he used an assumed name, was there not? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, a week later. - -Mr. JENNER. We will get to that in a moment. But was this---- - -Mrs. PAINE. But this was the first indication I had that this man was -a good deal queerer than I thought, and it didn't tell me, perhaps it -should have but it didn't tell me just what sort of a queer he was. He -addressed it "Dear Sirs." It looked to me like someone trying to make -an impression, and choosing the words he thought were best to make that -impression, even including assumed name as a possible attempt to make -an impression on someone who was able to do espionage, but not to my -mind necessarily a picture of someone who was doing espionage, though I -left that open as a possibility, and thought I'd give it to the FBI and -let them conclude or add it to what they knew. - -I regret, and I would like to put this on the record, particularly two -things in my own actions prior to the time of the assassination. - -One, that I didn't make the connection between this phone number that I -had of where he lived and that of course this would produce for the FBI -agent who was asking the address of where he lived. - -Mr. JENNER. I will get to that, Mrs. Paine. - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, that is regret 1. - -Mr. JENNER. I don't want to cover too many subjects at the moment. - -Mrs. PAINE. But then of course you see in light of the events that -followed it is a pity that I didn't go directly instead of waiting for -the next visit, because the next visit was the 23d of November. - -Mr. JENNER. Now I am going to get to that. What did you do with your -copy of the letter? - -Mrs. PAINE. I put my copy of the letter away in an envelope in my desk. -I then, Sunday evening, also took the original. I decided to do that -Sunday evening. - -Mr. JENNER. He had left? - -Mrs. PAINE. No, he had not left. - -Mr. JENNER. He had not left? - -Mrs. PAINE. I asked the gentlemen present, it included Michael, to -come in and help me move the furniture around. I walked in and saw the -letter was still there and plunked it into my desk. We then moved all -the furniture. I then took it out of the desk and placed it. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you take it out of the desk? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't think he knew that I took it. Oh, that evening or -the next morning, I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. And this was the 10th of November? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any conversation with him about that? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. I came close to it. I was disturbed about it. I didn't -go to sleep right away. He was sitting up watching the late spy story, -if you will, on the TV, and I got up and sat there on the sofa with him -saying, "I can't speak," wanting to confront him with this and say, -"What is this?" But on the other hand I was somewhat fearful, and I -didn't know what to do. - -Representative FORD. Fearful in what way? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, if he was an agent, I would rather just give it to -the FBI, not to say "Look, I am watching you" by saying "What is this I -find on my desk." - -Mr. JENNER. Were you fearful of any physical harm? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I was not. - -Representative FORD. That is what I was concerned about. - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I was not, though I don't think I defined my fears. I -sat down and said I couldn't sleep and he said, "I guess you are real -upset about going to the lawyer tomorrow." - -He knew I had an appointment with my lawyer to discuss the possibility -of a divorce the next day, and that didn't happen to be what was -keeping me up that night, but I was indeed upset about the idea, and -it was thoughtful for him to think of it. But I let it rest there, and -we watched the story which he was interested in watching. And then I -excused myself and went to bed. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you do ultimately with your draft of the letter -and the original? - -Mrs. PAINE. The first appearance of an FBI person on the 23d of -November, I gave the original to them. The next day it probably was I -said I also had a copy and gave them that. I wanted to be shut of it. - -Mr. JENNER. So I take it, Mrs. Paine, you did not deliver either the -original or the copy or call attention to the original or the copy -with respect to the FBI. - -Mrs. PAINE. Prior. - -Mr. JENNER. Prior to the 23d did you say? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And what led you to hold onto this rather provocative -document? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is a rather provocative document. It provoked my doubts -about this fellow's normalcy more than it provoked thoughts that this -was the talk of an agent reporting in. But I wasn't sure. - -I of course made no--I didn't know him to be a violent person, had -no thought that he had this trait, possibility in him, absolutely no -connection with the President's coming. If I had, hindsight is so -much better, I would certainly have called the FBI's attention to it. -Supposing that I had? - -Mr. JENNER. If the FBI had returned, Mrs. Paine, as you indicated -during the course of your meeting with the FBI November 1, would you -have disclosed this document to the FBI? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I certainly think so. This was not something I was at -all comfortable in having even. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you expecting the FBI to return? - -Mrs. PAINE. I did expect them to come back. As I say, I had said that -Lee was here on weekends and so forth. It might have been a good time -to give them this document. But as far as I knew, and I know now -certainly, they had not seen him and they were still interested in -seeing him. - -Representative FORD. How did you copy the note? - -Mrs. PAINE. Handwritten. - -Representative FORD. Handwritten? - -Mrs. PAINE. I perhaps should put in here that Lee told me, and I -only reconstructed this a few weeks ago, that he went, after I gave -him--from the first visit of the FBI agent I took down the agent's name -and the number that is in the telephone book to call the FBI, and I -gave this to Lee the weekend he came. - -Mr. JENNER. You gave it to Lee? - -Mrs. PAINE. I gave it to Lee. - -Mr. JENNER. What weekend was that? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am told that came out on the 1st of November, so that -would have been the weekend of the 2d, the next day. - -Mr. JENNER. You have your calendar there. The 1st of November is what -day of the week? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is a Friday. Then he told me, it must have been the -following weekend, that same weekend of the 9th. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything when you gave him Agent Hosty's name on -the telephone? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Nothing at all? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall anything Lee said. I will go on as to the -recollections that came later. He told me that he had stopped at the -downtown office of the FBI and tried to see the agents and left a note. -And my impression of it is that this notice irritated. - -Mr. JENNER. Irritating? - -Mrs. PAINE. Irritated, that he left the note saying what he thought. -This is reconstructing my impression of the fellows bothering him and -his family, and this is my impression then. I couldn't say this was -specifically said to him later. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean he was irritated? - -Mrs. PAINE. He was irritated and he said, "They are trying to inhibit -my activities," and I said, "You passed your pamphlets," and could well -have gone on to say what I thought, but I don't believe I did go on to -say, that he could and should expect the FBI to be interested in him. - -He had gone to the Soviet Union, intended to become a citizen there, -and come back. He had just better adjust himself to being of interest -to them for years to come. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he say to that? - -Mrs. PAINE. Now as I say, this I didn't go on to say. This was my -feeling. - -I didn't actually go on to say this. I did say, "Don't be inhibited, -do what you think you should." But I was thinking in terms of passing -pamphlets or expressing a belief in Fidel Castro, if that is why he -had, I defend his right to express such a belief. I felt the FBI would -too and that he had no reason to be irritated. But then that was my -interpretation. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you given all of what he said and what you said, -however, on that occasion? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I will just go on to say that I learned only a few -weeks ago that he never did go into the FBI office. Of course knowing, -thinking that he had gone in, I thought that was sensible on his part. -But it appears to have been another lie. - -Mr. JENNER. I will return to that FBI visit in a moment. I want to -cover that as a separate subject. - -Representative Ford is interested in another subject. I would like -to return to the day or the period that your station wagon was being -parked just before you took off. You have already testified to the -fact, either earlier this afternoon or late this morning, that Lee -Harvey Oswald appeared to be quite active in doing packing. - -Mrs. PAINE. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Of household wares or goods that were being taken back to -Irving, Tex. Were you present when the station wagon was loaded with -the various materials? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I was present for most if not all of that. - -Mr. JENNER. Who did that? - -Mrs. PAINE. He put the things in. I knew that we would spend one night -on the road, that there were certain things we would have to get too, -and I knew where these were, and he didn't, so that I talked about -where these things should be placed, and helped with some of the -binding, tying things to the boat on the car rack. - -Mr. JENNER. The boat on top of the station wagon? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now would you please tell us what there was in the way of -luggage placed in the station wagon? - -Mrs. PAINE. There again the two large duffels which were heavier than I -could move, he put those in. - -Mr. JENNER. Describe their appearance, please. - -Mrs. PAINE. Again stuffed full, a rumply outside. - -Mr. JENNER. With what? - -Mrs. PAINE. Rumply. - -Mr. JENNER. Rumply? No appearance of any hard object pushing outwards? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Against the sides or ends of the duffel bags? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You saw nothing with respect to those duffel bags which -might have led you to believe---- - -Mrs. PAINE. A board in it, no. - -Mr. JENNER. A tent pole, a long object, hard? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Nothing at all? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. And how many pieces of luggage? - -Mrs. PAINE. Again these same suitcases, 2 or 3, I think 3 including -quite a small one, and the little radio. - -Mr. JENNER. What about the zipper bag? - -Mrs. PAINE. That was there. I think so. Oh no, it probably wasn't. I -don't recall the zipper bag as being part of that. - -Mr. JENNER. I wish you would reflect a little on this because it is -important, Mrs. Paine, if you can remember it as accurately as possible. - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall the zipper bag among those things. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the zipper bag when you arrived in Irving? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think I saw him arrive with it himself, but I am not -certain. No, wait, that may not be because I didn't see him when he -first arrived. - -Mr. JENNER. When you arrived in Irving, Mrs. Paine, not when he arrived. - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that. I distinctly recall the duffels -because it was all I could do to get them off of the car and set them -on the grass until Michael could come and put them into the garage. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you distinctly recall the hard-sided luggage you -described yesterday? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All of the pieces that you saw? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I don't recall that it was all. I couldn't even -recall too well how many went down to New Orleans originally. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there more than one? - -Mrs. PAINE. There was certainly more than one. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you think there were more than two? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection as to whether there was a piece -of luggage still apart from the zipper bag, still in the apartment at -4907 Magazine Street when you girls pulled out to go back to Irving? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have no specific recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it fair to say it is your best recollection at the -moment that the zipper bag you have described earlier, you described -yesterday, was not placed in the station wagon, and did not return with -you to Irving? - -Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall it being in the station wagon. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, was there a separate long package of any kind? - -Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall such a package. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there a separate package of any character wrapped in a -blanket? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. There was a basket such as you use for hanging your -clothes. It carried exactly that, clothes and diapers, and they weren't -as neat as being in suitcases and duffels would imply. There was -leftovers stuffed in the corner, clothes and things, but rather open. - -Mr. JENNER. So you saw no long rectangular package of any kind or -character loaded in or placed in your station wagon? - -Mrs. PAINE. No, it doesn't mean it wasn't there, but I saw nothing of -that nature. - -Mr. JENNER. You saw nothing? - -Mrs. PAINE. I saw nothing. - -Mr. JENNER. When you arrived in Irving, Tex., were you present when -your station wagon was unpacked? - -Mrs. PAINE. Marina and I did that with the exception of the duffels. - -Mr. JENNER. You did it all yourself and you took out of the station -wagon everything in it other than the two duffel bags? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, in the process of removing everything other than the -two duffel bags on the occasion on the 24th of September 1963 when you -reached Irving, Tex., did you find or see any long rectangular package? - -Mrs. PAINE. I recall no such package. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see any kind of a package wrapped in the blanket? - -Mrs. PAINE. Not to my recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see any package---- - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall seeing the blanket either. - -Mr. JENNER. On that occasion? - -Mrs. PAINE. On that occasion, not until later. - -Mr. JENNER. Not until later. - -Representative FORD. Did you see the blanket in New Orleans? - -Mrs. PAINE. On the bed or something. I am asking myself. I don't recall -it specifically. - -Mr. JENNER. Of course we all know the blanket to which we are -referring, which I will ask you about in a moment. I might show it -to you at the moment, or at least ask you if it is the blanket. I am -exhibiting to the witness Commission Exhibit No. 140. Is this blanket -familiar to you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it is. - -Mr. JENNER. And give us the best recollection you have when you first -saw it. - -Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that I saw it on the floor of my -garage sometime in late October. - -Mr. JENNER. 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection of ever having seen it before -that time? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. I might say also now that I know certainly I have never -seen this binding until last night. - -Mr. JENNER. When you say "this binding," you are pointing to what -appears to be some black binding? - -Mrs. PAINE. Some hemstitching, it is sewn. - -Mr. JENNER. On the edge of the blanket. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. This binding was not apparent, did not show. - -Mr. JENNER. You never noticed the binding before, if the binding had -always been on it, is that what you mean to say? - -Mrs. PAINE. When I saw the blanket the binding was not showing. - -Representative FORD. How carefully did you analyze the blanket on the -previous occasions? - -Mrs. PAINE. I stepped over it. I didn't pick it up or look at it -closely. - -Representative FORD. Didn't turn it over? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Representative FORD. Didn't move it? - -Mrs. PAINE. No, I didn't. - -Representative FORD. So you only saw one surface more or less? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, only one surface, except I saw that it had been moved. - -Representative FORD. But you didn't move it yourself? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. In what shape, that is form, was the blanket when you first -saw it? And I take it you first saw it in your garage. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. And it was subsequent to the time that you and Marina had -returned to Irving? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you are certain that you did not see the blanket in -your station wagon when you arrived in Irving? - -Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall seeing the blanket in my station wagon. - -Mr. JENNER. And you didn't see it in their apartment at 4907 Magazine -Street when you were there? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall seeing it there. - -Mr. JENNER. Either in the spring or in the fall, is that true? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is true. - -Mr. JENNER. Now tell us--I take it from your testimony that the -blanket, when you first saw it in a garage, was in a configuration in -the form of a package? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was a long rectangle shape with the ends tucked in. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough to re-form that blanket so that it -is in the shape and the dimension when you first saw it? - -Mrs. PAINE. About like so. - -Mr. JENNER. For the record if you please, Mr. Chairman, the length of -the form is just exactly 45 inches, and it is across exactly 12 inches. - -Representative FORD. That is across lying flat. - -Mr. JENNER. Across lying flat, thank you. - -Now, what else about the form of the blanket did you notice on the -occasion when you first saw it on your garage floor? Anything else? - -Mrs. PAINE. I recall from either that occasion or another that there -were parallel strings around it. - -Mr. JENNER. Tied? - -Mrs. PAINE. Into a bundle, yes, 3 or 4. - -Mr. JENNER. How many were there? - -Mrs. PAINE. 3 or 4, I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. 3 or 4? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I suppose it would be four. It would be very well -spaced if it was only three, and I think they were closer than that. - -Mr. JENNER. Your best recollection now. - -Mrs. PAINE. Is four. - -Mr. JENNER. Rather than rationalization. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, there were four. - -Mr. JENNER. There were four string ties across the 12-inch side of the -blanket. Were those string ties pulled so they seemed to hold something -inside the blanket? - -Mrs. PAINE. They didn't seem particularly tight, but then I don't have -a strong recollection of them prior to the 22d. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever pick up that package? - -Mrs. PAINE. No, I never did. - -Mr. JENNER. That was wrapped in the blanket. Did you ever have any -discussion with Marina Oswald about the package in your garage? - -Mrs. PAINE. Not until the afternoon of the 22d. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see anybody move it about your garage at any time? - -Mrs. PAINE. No, I did not see anyone move it. - -Mr. JENNER. And how long after you returned to Texas did you notice -that package in your garage? - -Mrs. PAINE. I said I thought it was late October perhaps. I wouldn't be -at all certain about when I first noticed it. - -Mr. JENNER. And did you notice from time to time that it was in a -different position or places in your garage? - -Mrs. PAINE. I recall two places I saw it. - -Mr. JENNER. And the first was where? - -Mrs. PAINE. Over near--the radial saw, what do you call it, buzz saw? - -Mr. JENNER. Bandsaw. - -Mrs. PAINE. No, buzz saw. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh yes, a disc type, a buzz saw, near the buzz saw. Then on -the second occasion when you saw it, where was it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Over near the work bench in front of part of the work -bench, one end extending toward the bandsaw. - -Mr. JENNER. And on both of those occasions was the package lying flat -on the floor or was it upended? - -Mrs. PAINE. Flat on the floor. - -Mr. JENNER. And you never had any curiosity with respect to it to lead -you to step on it or feel it in any respect? - -Mrs. PAINE. No, I didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have a lot of debris or articles in the garage? - -Mrs. PAINE. Indeed, and do yet. Our things and most of the Oswald -things were stored there. I have mentioned several pieces of machine -tools. - -Mr. JENNER. We identified the garage picture at the tail end of -yesterday, and I think the Chairman is seeking it. - -Mr. McCLOY. I am trying to find it now. - -Mrs. PAINE. That of course was taken more recently, but it is -reasonably typical of its condition at that time too. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. JENNER. This is a photograph numbered eight, entitled garage -interior, which I have marked with Commission number 429, and I now -exhibit that to Mrs. Paine. - -Are you familiar with what is depicted in that photograph? - -Mrs. PAINE. Very. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know when that photograph was taken? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was taken about 2 weeks ago. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you present? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And does it accurately depict everything that was there and -in its relative position at the time the picture was taken? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And it is your garage? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you locate on that, and I would like to have you -place an X at the point in that picture that you first saw the package? - -Mrs. PAINE. Underneath that box. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. You have written an arrow or X next to "on -floor" and it is underneath the box that is on the floor. - -Mrs. PAINE. It was in front as I recall it; this was the buzz saw I was -talking about, right here. - -Mr. JENNER. Right here the witness is pointing to the right hand upper -middle section of the photograph. - -Mr. DULLES. Is this the first location of the package? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was over on that side of the garage, towards the door -or---- - -Mr. DULLES. The first location of it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Toward what door, Mrs. Paine? - -Mrs. PAINE. Toward the front of the garage. - -Mr. JENNER. Where did you see it on the second occasion? - -Mrs. PAINE. Part of it in front of this work bench, one right under -this box here. - -Mr. JENNER. Put a double X here, between this workbench and this -bandsaw. - -Mrs. PAINE. On the floor. - -Mr. JENNER. The workbench and the bandsaw to which the witness is -pointing are on the left hand side of the photograph, the bandsaw being -about the upper middle. Is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The package was farther to the interior from the bench. - -Mr. JENNER. It was toward the back rather than toward the door? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was the other side of the bandsaw so it was farther to -the interior than its first location. - -Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 429 the -document which the witness has identified which in turn was identified -as Commission Exhibit 429. - -Mr. McCLOY. It will be admitted. - -(The photograph referred to, previously identified as Commission -Exhibit No. 429, was received in evidence.) - -Mr. JENNER. For the record, I am placing the rifle in the folded -blanket as Mrs. Paine folded it. This is being done without the rifle -being dismantled. - -May the record show, Mr. Chairman, that the rifle fits well in the -package from end to end, and it does not---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Can you make it flatter? - -Mr. JENNER. No; because the rifle is now in there. - -Mrs. PAINE. I just mean that---- - -Mr. JENNER. Was that about the appearance of the blanket wrapped -package that you saw on your garage floor? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; although I recall it as quite flat. - -Mr. JENNER. Flatter than it now appears to be? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But it is not a clear recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. You have a firm recollection that the package you saw was -of the length? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, definitely. - -Mr. JENNER. That is 45 inches, approximately. You had no occasion when -you stepped on the package---- - -Mrs. PAINE. I stepped over it. - -Mr. JENNER. You always stepped over it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; until the afternoon of the 22d. - -Mr. JENNER. By accident or otherwise, did you happen to come in contact -with it? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't know whether there was anything solid or hard in -it? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. DULLES. Did it look about the way this package looks? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. Except for the fact it had some cord around it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Representative FORD. When it had some cord around it, did the way it -was tied pull it in or distort the shape? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; it didn't distort the shape. - -Representative FORD. About the same shape even with the cord? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. The cords weren't pulled tight? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. They were relatively loosely tied? - -Mrs. PAINE. I recall this definite shape. - -Mr. JENNER. To hold the blanket in that form rather than to hold the -contents of the package firm, is that your impression? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. Are you going to ask about the husband's testimony in -connection with the moving of the package? - -Mr. JENNER. I did not intend to. - -Mr. McCLOY. I was not present but your husband testified he had moved -the blanket from time to time but had not opened it. Did he ever refer -to it? Did he ever speak to you about having had to move it while he -was---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Not until after the assassination. - -Mr. McCLOY. Not until after the assassination but before the -assassination he had not complained about its being there or any -difficulty in moving it? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not mention it, and I was not present when he -moved it. - -Representative FORD. Was he the person who used these various -woodworking pieces of equipment? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Representative FORD. Did he work in the garage? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, he had--he made the workbench, and he had worked in -the garage when he lived at the home and it has since been somewhat -filled up. - -Representative FORD. But during the time that you and Marina came back -he didn't work in the garage? - -Mrs. PAINE. He did still cut occasionally something on the saws. -Indeed, I did, too. I like to make children's blocks. I am trying to -think when I last, if it is pertinent, when I used the saw. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you use the saw while the blanket was on floor? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe so. - -Mr. McCLOY. You had to step over the blanket to do that? - -Mrs. PAINE. Or around it. - -Mr. McCLOY. Or around it. But in the course of your use of the saw you -never had the necessity or the occasion to readjust the blanket or move -it in any way? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. DULLES. Did we get the three locations here? I only see two. - -Mr. JENNER. There were only two? - -Mrs. PAINE. Two that I recall. - -Mr. DULLES. Only two. - -Representative FORD. She made a mistake in the first drawing of the -second one. - -Mrs. PAINE. I touched it by mistake. - -Representative FORD. I think that ought to be clarified on the record. - -Mr. JENNER. On the right-hand side of Commission Exhibit 429 there is -an X or an arrow above which is written the words "on floor". That is -the first location point at which you saw the package? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. On the left-hand side, the lower half of the photograph -there is a double X. - -Mrs. PAINE. Which I could not put in enough to give the proportion. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean in the photograph? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that where you saw the package for the second time? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; as I have described it. The position I have described -is more accurate than the XX. - -Mr. JENNER. There is a red strip above the table with the tablecloth on -it. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is an accident with my hand. - -Mr. JENNER. That was an accident on your part? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. So there are only two locations? - -Mrs. PAINE. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Chairman, may I reinsert the rifle in the package, -on the opposite side from what it was before, and have the witness look -at it? - -Mr. McCLOY. You may. - -We are back on the record. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. Chairman, I have now placed the opposite side of the rifle to the -floor, and may the record show that the package is much flatter. The -rifle when inserted firstly was turned on the side of the bolt which -operates the rifle which forced it up higher. - -Now does the package look more familiar to you, Mrs. Paine? - -Mrs. PAINE. I recall it as being more like this, not as lumpy as the -other had been. - -Mr. JENNER. More in the form it is now? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now directing your attention to the rifle itself, which is -Commission Exhibit 139, when did you first see that rifle, if you have -ever seen it? - -Mrs. PAINE. I saw a rifle I judge to have been the same one at the -police station on the afternoon of November 22, I don't recall the -strap. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't recall at the time you saw it on the 22d of -November in the police station that it had a strap? - -Mrs. PAINE. It may well have had one but I don't specifically recall -it. I was interested in the sight. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you ever seen this rifle prior to the afternoon of -November 22? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. JENNER. Now, we do have some particular interest, Mrs. Paine, in -the rifle strap. Had you ever had around your house a luggage strap or -a guitar strap similar to the strap that appears on Commission Exhibit -139? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; in fact, I don't recall ever seeing a strap of that -nature. - -Mr. JENNER. Whether in your home or anywhere else? - -Mrs. PAINE. Precisely. - -Mr. JENNER. And you are unable to identify or suggest its source? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. What do you have in your home, Mrs. Paine, by way of heavy -wrapping paper? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have the sort of paper you buy at the dime store to wrap -packages, about 36 inches long, coming in a roll. - -Mr. JENNER. Exhibiting to you Commission Exhibit No. 364, is the -wrapping paper that you have in your home as heavy as that? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe it is quite that heavy and it certainly -isn't quite that long. Well, it could have been cut the otherway, -couldn't it, possibly? - -Mr. JENNER. What about its shade, color? - -Mrs. PAINE. It would be similar to that. - -Mr. JENNER. Similar in shade. - -Do you have the broad banded sticky tape or sticky tape of this nature? - -Mrs. PAINE. There is no tape this wide in my home nor to my -recollection has there ever been. - -Mr. JENNER. You have whole rolls of this tape, of the paper in your -home? - -Mrs. PAINE. A whole roll. - -Mr. JENNER. A whole roll? - -Mrs. PAINE. Which I use for wrapping packages, mailing. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have string in your home that you use in attaching -to this wrapping? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you by any chance know the weight of the string that -wrapped the blanket package as against the strength or weight of the -string that you normally used in your home for packages? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was similar in weight, rather thin. - -Representative FORD. Color was the same? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think it was a whitish color on the blanket and one of -the rolls I have is that. - -Representative FORD. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you say it was a relatively light package string? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Not a rope type? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no. - -Mr. JENNER. And the string you saw on the blanket package was of the -lighter weight type and not---- - -Mrs. PAINE. And of the lighter color too, I think. - -Mr. JENNER. And the lighter color. - -Now, you and Marina arrived home on the 24th of September, with the -packages and contents of the station wagon, and, save the duffel bags, -they were moved into your home, and everybody settled down? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. When next was there--did you hear from Lee Harvey Oswald at -any time thereafter? - -Mrs. PAINE. Not until the afternoon of the 4th, which I have already -referred to. - -Mr. JENNER. No word whatsoever from him from the 24th of September? - -Mrs. PAINE. 23d we left him in New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. 23d of September, until the 4th of October? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct; no word. - -Mr. JENNER. By letter, telephone? - -Mrs. PAINE. Or pigeon. - -Mr. JENNER. Or otherwise, anything whatsoever? - -Mrs. PAINE. No word. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you and Marina have discussions in that 10-day period -about where Lee was or might be? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever? Did you have any discussion about the fact -that you hadn't heard from Lee Harvey Oswald in 14 days or 10 days? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; we didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. No discussion on that at all. What did you and Marina -discuss during that 10-day period? - -Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall which was during that period or which was -after; general conversation. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it generally small talk, ladies talk about the house? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was generally what my vocabulary permitted and then she -would reminisce, her vocabulary being much larger, about her life in -Russia, about the movies she had seen. We talked about the children and -their health. We talked about washing, about cooking. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have ladies visit. Did ladies in the neighborhood -come and visit? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you go to neighbors homes? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. With Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. Again, I can't recall which was before October 4th and -which was after, but there was the normal flow nonetheless---- - -Mr. JENNER. And interested people? - -Mrs. PAINE. Of my visiting at other people's homes and particularly -Mrs. Roberts or Mrs. Craig. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Roberts was your next door neighbor and Mrs. Craig was -how many doors down or across the street? - -Mrs. PAINE. She is, you have to drive. You have to drive to her home. -She is the young German woman to whom I referred. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. Was there any discussion during this 10-day period of -Marina's relations with her husband, Lee? - -Mrs. PAINE. Not that I recall. - -Mr. JENNER. She expressed no concern during this 10-day period, that no -word had been heard from Lee? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she evidence any--did she do or say anything during -that period to indicate she did not expect to hear from him during that -10 days period? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; she did not. - -Mr. JENNER. There was nothing? - -Mrs. PAINE. There was nothing. - -Mr. JENNER. Did it come to your mind that it was curious you hadn't -heard from Lee Harvey Oswald for 10 whole days? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; it didn't seem curious. I know he had spent at least 2 -weeks looking for work on previous occasions in different cities and I -thought he wanted to find something before he communicated. - -Mr. JENNER. But in view of the affection that had been evidenced on the -day of departure on the 23d, you were not bothered by the fact that not -even a telephone call had been received in 10 days? - -Mrs. PAINE. If he was not in town I wouldn't have at all expected a -telephone call because that would have cost him dearly. - -Mr. JENNER. He might have made it collect. - -Mrs. PAINE. I didn't expect that either. - -Mr. JENNER. But there was no telephone call, there was no postcard, -there was no letter? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. There was nothing? - -Mrs. PAINE. There could well have been a letter but there was none. - -Mr. DULLES. Where did you think he was at this time? - -Mrs. PAINE. Houston. - -Mr. DULLES. Houston, looking for a job? Houston? - -Mrs. PAINE. Houston, possibly. - -Mr. JENNER. Because of the conversation on the morning of the 23d, -because of the possibility of his going to Houston or Philadelphia, -your frame of mind was that he was either in Houston or Philadelphia? - -Mrs. PAINE. I thought he probably was in Houston. The Philadelphia -reference was very slight. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any reference or discussion between you and -Marina during that period of the possibility that he was off in Houston -looking for work? - -Mrs. PAINE. No, there was not. - -Mr. JENNER. You are sure there was just no discussion of the subject at -all during that whole 10 days period with Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall any discussion of it. - -Mr. JENNER. She expressed no concern and you none? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. That nobody had heard from Lee. - -All right. - -You heard from him on the 4th of October? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you give the Commission the circumstances, the time -of day and how it came about? - -Mrs. PAINE. He telephoned in early afternoon, something after lunchtime. - -Mr. JENNER. The phone rang. Did you answer it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And did you recognize the voice? - -Mrs. PAINE. He asked to speak to Marina. - -Mr. JENNER. Whose voice was it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, after he asked to speak to Marina, I was certain it -was Lee's. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you say? - -Mrs. PAINE. I said "here" and gave her the phone. - -Mr. JENNER. You didn't say "where are you", or "I am glad to hear from -you, where have you been?" - -Mrs. PAINE. No. I thought that was her's to ask. He wished to speak -to her and I gave her the phone and, of course, that is what was then -asked. I heard her say to him---- - -Mr. JENNER. You heard her side of the conversation, did you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -What did you hear her say? - -Mrs. PAINE. I heard her say, "No, Mrs. Paine, she can't come and pick -you up." - -Mr. JENNER. Was she speaking in Russian? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Throughout? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. When Lee asked for Marina, did he speak in English or -Russian? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. And Marina went on to say that Mrs. Paine, -"Ruth has just been to Parkland Hospital this morning to donate blood, -she shouldn't be going driving now to pick you up." - -Mr. JENNER. Did she refer to you as Mrs. Paine or Ruth? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I am trying to make it clear who is being talked about. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. You might give your testimony the wrong cast. - -Mrs. PAINE. No; of course. She referred to me as "Ruth" or "she". - -To Junie, she called me Aunt Ruth. To Junie, speaking of me to her -little girl, she referred to me as Aunt Ruth. - -Mr. JENNER. You are giving the conversation now, the end of it that you -heard? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Then I heard Marina say "Why didn't you call?" - -Mr. JENNER. You did hear her say that? - -Mrs. PAINE. I believe so. I certainly remember her saying it afterward. -She hung up and she explained the conversation to me. - -Mr. JENNER. What did she say to you? - -Mrs. PAINE. That he had asked for me to come in to downtown Dallas to -pick him up and she said no; he should find his own way. - -Mr. JENNER. To come to downtown Dallas? - -Mrs. PAINE. To come to downtown Dallas to pick him up, and she never -asked me whether I wanted to or would have, told him, no; it was an -imposition, that I had just given blood at Parkland Hospital. - -Mr. JENNER. And you had in fact given blood? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; indeed. - -Mr. JENNER. That morning? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I have a card or the FBI does to that effect. Then -she said that he had said that he was at the Y, staying at the Y, and -had been in town a couple of days, to which she said, "Why didn't you -call right away?", in other words, "why didn't you call right away upon -getting to town?" - -Then he also asked whether he could come out; this was, of course, -during the conversation, and she referred the question to me, could he -come out for the weekend, and I said, yes, he could. - -Mr. JENNER. This was while she was still talking on the telephone? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Prior to his asking for a ride. - -So then they hung up and I went grocery shopping, and when---- - -Mr. JENNER. You left the home? - -Mrs. PAINE. I left the home. - -Mr. JENNER. You have now exhausted your recollection as to everything -that was said to you by Marina after she hung up and was relating to -you, at least a summary of the conversation with her husband? - -Mrs. PAINE. I believe it was also said that he wanted to look for work -in Dallas. He was here, staying at the Y. Could he come out for the -weekend. He planned to look for work in Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Did you say anything about--were you stimulated to say anything to -Marina about any of the subject matters of that conversation as she -reported it to you? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You expressed no response, made no response to her having -made a statement to her husband that--of her surprise as to why he -hadn't called and if he were just over in Dallas and staying at the Y? - -Mrs. PAINE. I thought that but I didn't try to put it in Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. There was no discussion is all I am getting at. - -What did she say as to his coming out by whatever means he could get -there? Was there any discussion of that? - -Mrs. PAINE. It implied whatever means, that he shouldn't ask me to---- - -Mr. JENNER. He was coming? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. But that you were not going to go to get him? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you left and went to the grocery store or market? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. When you returned, was Lee at your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. He was already there, which surprised me greatly. - -Mr. JENNER. Why did it surprise you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Because I thought he would have to take a public bus to -Irving, they run very rarely if at all during the afternoon, and I -thought he would have considerable difficulty getting out. I thought it -would be at least supper time before he got there. - -Mr. JENNER. How much time elapsed between the time you left and the -time you returned? - -Mrs. PAINE. Shopping? Oh, I don't know, perhaps an hour, perhaps a -little less. - -Representative FORD. Where did you go shopping? - -Mrs. PAINE. The grocery store in the same parking lot where we -practiced. - -Mr. JENNER. That was three blocks away? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is a little more than that. These would be long blocks. - -Mr. JENNER. Did any conversation ensue as to how he had, by what means -he had come from Dallas to Irving? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. He then said that he had hitchhiked out, caught a ride -with someone who brought him straight to the door, a Negro man. - -Mr. JENNER. To your door? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. To whom he said that he had been away from his wife -and child and he was just now getting home, and the man kindly brought -him directly to the door. - -Mr. JENNER. Where did this conversation take place? - -Mrs. PAINE. In the home that afternoon. - -Mr. JENNER. When you returned to your home, that was in the afternoon, -wasn't it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Where was Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he inside the home or outside? - -Mrs. PAINE. Inside, I believe. - -Mr. JENNER. Did any conversation ensue as to where he had been in that -10-day interim? - -Mrs. PAINE. Where he had been? - -Mr. JENNER. Where he had been in the intervening 10 days? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he said to me that he had been in Houston and that he -hadn't been able to find work there and was now going to try in Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about Philadelphia? - -Mrs. PAINE. Nothing. - -Mr. JENNER. From your testimony I gather he did not say anything about -Mexico? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present when he stated to you that he had been -in Houston looking for work? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection of it; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You never had any conversation with her up to the 23d or -22d of November on the subject of whether Lee had or had not been in -Mexico? - -Mrs. PAINE. We never had such a conversation. - -Mr. JENNER. Despite your having read that letter on the 10th of -November in which he stated that he had been? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Now there was no occasion in that letter that she may -have known that he went any more than there was certain indication to -my mind that this was true and not false. Had I looked at the peso, -this would have been the only occasion that she knew. - -Mr. JENNER. But the fact is, apart from your rationalization now there -was no conversation on that subject? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. How long did he remain in your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Monday morning---- - -The CHAIRMAN. Before you get to that, I want to ask a question about -giving the blood that day. Did you give it for a particular person or -for a blood bank? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was for Marina. For each of the persons who come in -under county care they ask you to donate two pints of blood, one at a -time. - -The CHAIRMAN. I see. And you donated one pint for her? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. - -Mr. JENNER. How long did he remain in your home on this visit? - -Mrs. PAINE. Until Monday morning, the 7th of October, almost noon, in -fact, when I took him to an Intercity bus at the Irving bus station. - -Mr. JENNER. This is that bus terminal approximately 3 miles from your -home? - -Mrs. PAINE. That same day I gave him a map to assist him in job hunting. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. I would like to get to that. - -I show you what is in evidence, I don't know whether it is received or -not; it is a Commission Exhibit No. 128, and ask you if you have ever -seen that before? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that the map to which you now have reference? - -Mrs. PAINE. I would say it is. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you do with the map with respect to Lee Harvey -Oswald on this occasion? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall who asked, who mentioned a map first, but, -of course, I knew, and he did, that it would be a useful thing to have -job hunting. I think he asked if I had a map of the city of Dallas and -I said, yes, I did, and I can easily get another at the gas station, -one of these. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, it is your clear recollection that this -document, Commission Exhibit No. 128, a map, is the map that you gave -Lee Harvey Oswald, this was October 7th? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was certainly this kind of map, whether it is the -identical map, I couldn't say for sure, but I much prefer the ENCO map -of the city and this is the kind I always get to use. So this is the -kind I had in mind. - -Mr. JENNER. So, to the best of your recollection, the coloring has been -changed a little bit because of attempts to draw fingerprints from it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. But your best recollection now, observing it, is that this -is the document? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you examine it carefully and see that there might be -something on it that would arrest your attention as your having placed -thereon or Lee? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have examined this carefully and a copy of it. - -Mr. JENNER. On other occasions? - -Mrs. PAINE. On other occasions, and I could not at any time find a -marking that I had made. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall having made any markings? - -Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall having made any markings on this particular -map. Sometime on some maps I knew I had made remarks where I was going. - -Mr. JENNER. Just for the purpose of the record, may I reverse it, and -you see no markings on the reverse side, I take it? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; which is Fort Worth, not Dallas, isn't it? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; it is. - -All right, now tell us about that incident? - -Mrs. PAINE. The map? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. I have. - -Mr. JENNER. That is all there was to it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you suggest, was there any discussion of, particular -places of employment? - -Mrs. PAINE. There was no such discussion. - -Mr. JENNER. As to which he might inquire? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he--did you hand him the map? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And was it opened before you and Lee in your discussions? - -Mrs. PAINE. No, no; we didn't discuss. He said, do I have a map, and I -said, yes, I do, you may have it. - -Mr. JENNER. You handed it to him, and that was all that occurred? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And did he place it in his pocket or did he go into his -room or his and Marina's room and place it there? - -Mrs. PAINE. He may have already been on his way to the bus station when -this conversation occurred and took it with him. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -I notice what appears to be a notation that the document has not as -yet been offered in evidence, Mr. Chairman, and I offer in evidence, -therefore, as Commission Exhibit No. 128, the document heretofore -identified by that exhibit number. - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to, heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit No. -128 for identification, was received in evidence.) - -Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present during this discussion of his job -hunting? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. I seem to think we were on our way out -already to go in our car to the bus station. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Marina accompany you? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; she did not. - -Mr. JENNER. She did not? - -Mrs. PAINE. She stayed home with the baby. My children probably went -with me, I don't recall specifically. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the baby, you mean June? - -Mrs. PAINE. June. - -Mr. JENNER. You drove into the bus terminal approximately 3 miles from -your home. Did you remain until the bus came along? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think so. - -Mr. JENNER. You saw him depart? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about where he would reside in Dallas -before he left? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am not certain, but I think he said the Y was rather -expensive. He was going to look for a room. - -Mr. McCLOY. What was the date you took him into the bus station? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is the 7th of October. - -Mr. McCLOY. The 7th of October? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there an occasion in this early period that you drove -him all the way into Dallas? - -Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall ever driving him all the way into Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. At any time? - -Mrs. PAINE. We drove, except to the Oak Cliff Station for this driver -training test. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the only occasion? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is the only one I recall. Can you refresh my -memory. I can't think of any other. - -Mr. JENNER. You are clear that you drove him from your home to the bus -terminal in Irving? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And either you left immediately or waited to see him board -the bus, but it is your definite recollection you did not drive him to -the Dallas downtown area on that occasion? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I did once drive him to the Dallas downtown area, -because I recall where he got out. Now why I was going--yes, I think I -may know why I was going. - -Mr. JENNER. Fix the time first. - -Mrs. PAINE. I do recall now driving him into downtown Dallas because I -was already going and it was probably Monday, the 14th of October. - -Mr. JENNER. This is the day before his employment began with the Texas -School Book Depository? - -Mrs. PAINE. It would have been 2 days before, the day before he -applied. I have several recollections but which day they attach to is -not quite as clear. - -I recall taking him to the bus. I recall picking him up at the bus. I -recall going in and dropping him off at a corner of Ross Avenue and -something else, which was near the employment office. - -Mr. JENNER. In downtown Dallas? - -Mrs. PAINE. Near the employment office station. I was on my way to -get a key fixed on my Russian typewriter which is what was taking me -downtown. I hadn't been thinking--I at no time made a purposeful trip -just to take him to downtown Dallas, but I was going and he went along -and I am pretty sure that was a Monday and he got out at that corner -and Marina was with me and we went on to get this typewriter fixed -either to pick it up or to leave it. I am quite certain it was the -12th, Saturday, that I picked him up at the station. - -Mr. JENNER. At the bus terminal? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And I am pretty certain that it was the 7th I took him -to the bus station. I recall it being already noon, and I thought he -might well have started looking for a job earlier that day. - -Mr. JENNER. When next did you hear from Mr. Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. After the 7th. Probably on the 12th when he called again to -ask if he could come out for the weekend. - -Mr. JENNER. The 12th is what day of the week? - -Mrs. PAINE. The 12th is a Saturday. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that he did call? - -Mrs. PAINE. Pardon? - -Mr. JENNER. Did you recall that he did telephone and ask permission to -come? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, indeed he did. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he always do that? - -Mrs. PAINE. He always did that with the exception of the 21st of -November. - -Mr. JENNER. We will get to that in a very few moments. - -Mr. McCLOY. Before you get to that you said you went all the way into -Dallas with this errand, that Marina was with you. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection. - -Mr. McCLOY. What did you do with the children? - -Mrs. PAINE. We always take them. - -Mr. McCLOY. Took them all, put them all in the station wagon? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; big station wagon. - -Mr. JENNER. By the way, I would like to go back a little. When you -picked him up at the bus station on the afternoon of the 4th of -October, what did he have---- - -Mrs. PAINE. On the afternoon of the 12th, around noon of the 12th. - -Mr. JENNER. Please, when he first returned to Irving after---- - -Mrs. PAINE. He hitchhiked out. - -Mr. JENNER. On the occasion that he told you he had been in Houston -looking for a job? - -Mrs. PAINE. The 4th, he hitchhiked out. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -It is that occasion that I have in mind. - -What did he have with him in the way of luggage? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall certainly. It does seem to me that I -remember he took the zipper bag on Monday, the following Monday, with -him to town, along with some clothes over his arm, ironed shirts, -things that are hung on hangers. - -Mr. JENNER. With respect to that trip---- - -Mrs. PAINE. You must remember I was shopping when he arrived on the -afternoon of the 4th. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. So I didn't see him when he arrived that moment. - -Mr. JENNER. But you do have a recollection of having seen the zipper -bag on Monday? - -Mrs. PAINE. The 7th. - -Mr. JENNER. When you took him to the bus terminal for the purpose of -his returning to downtown Dallas? - -Mrs. PAINE. To find a room and live there and have sufficient clothing -there. - -That is my best recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that the first time you had seen the zipper bag? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. From the time you had left New Orleans on the 23d? - -Mrs. PAINE. So far as I recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you notice anything else in the way of pieces of -luggage in your home after you came back from the shopping center that -afternoon of October 4th that hadn't been there prior to his arrival? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. The only piece of luggage of which you have any -recollection then is the zipper bag which you saw him take with him -when he left on Monday morning, the 7th? - -Mrs. PAINE. And that is, I would not say a certain recollection. But -that is the best I have. - -Mr. JENNER. It is your best recollection anyhow? - -Mrs PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, when you returned to your home did you have any -discussion with Marina about Lee's departure and his future plans and -her understanding of them? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing I recall specifically. - -Mr. JENNER. None at all. - -What discussion went on between you and Marina, that is the subject -matter with respect to his weekend visits? - -Mrs. PAINE. She wanted to be certain it was all right for him to come -out, you know that it wasn't too much of an imposition on me. We got -into discussing his efforts to find a job. Then Monday, the 14th as -best as I recall, was the first time we talked about him, more than to -say it was too bad he didn't find something. This is the---- - -Mr. JENNER. During the course of the week was there discussion between -you and Marina respecting Lee Oswald's attempt at employment? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, there came an occasion, did there not, that weekend or -the following weekend at which there was a discussion at least by you -with some neighbors with respect to efforts to obtain employment for -Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. As best I can reconstruct it this was, while having coffee -at my immediate neighbors, Mrs. Ed Roberts, and also present was Mrs. -Bill Randle, and Lee had said over the weekend that he had gotten the -last of the unemployment compensation checks that were due him, and -that it had been smaller than the others had been, and disappointing in -its smallness and he looked very discouraged when he went to look for -work. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about amount? - -Mrs. PAINE. I didn't hear the question. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about amount? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't, just less. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. PAINE. And the subject of his looking for work and that he hadn't -found work for a week, came up while we were having coffee, the four -young mothers at Mrs. Roberts' house, and Mrs. Randle mentioned that -her younger brother, Wesley Frazier thought they needed another person -at the Texas School Book Depository where Wesley worked. - -Marina then asked me, after we had gone home, asked me if I would -call---- - -Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present during this discussion? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; Marina was present, yes, indeed. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she understand the conversation? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was a running translation, running, faulty translation -going on. - -Mr. JENNER. You were translating for her? - -Mrs. PAINE. I was acting as her translator. And then after we came -home she asked me if I would call the School Book Depository to see if -indeed there was the possibility of an opening, and at her request, I -did telephone---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, please. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. While you were still in the Roberts' home was there any -discussion at all of the subject mentioned by you or by Mrs. Randle -or Mrs. Roberts or anyone else, of calls to be made, or that might be -made, to the Texas School Book Depository in this connection? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall this discussion. As I recall it was a -suggestion made by Marina to me after we got home, but I may be wrong. - -Mr. JENNER. But that is your best recollection that you are now -testifying to? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You reached home and Marina suggested that "Would you -please call the Texas School Depository?" - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you do? - -Mrs. PAINE. I looked up the number in the book, and dialed it, was told -I would need to speak to Mr. Truly, who was at the warehouse. The phone -was taken to Mr. Truly, and I talked with him and said---- - -Mr. JENNER. You mean the call was transferred by the operator? - -Mrs. PAINE. To Mr. Truly, and I said I know of a young man whose wife -was staying in my house, the wife was expecting a child, they already -had a little girl and he had been out of work for a while and was -very interested in getting any employment and his name, and was there -a possibility of an opening there, and Mr. Truly said he didn't know -whether he had an opening, that the young man should apply himself in -person. - -Mr. JENNER. Which made sense. - -Mrs. PAINE. Made very good sense for a personnel man to say. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you make more than one call to this Texas School Book -Depository? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Only the one? - -Mrs. PAINE. Only the one. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the date of this call? - -Mrs. PAINE. Reconstructing it, I believe it was October 14. - -Mr. JENNER. What day of the week is October 14? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is a Monday. - -Mr. JENNER. Following that call and your talking with Mr. Truly, what -did you do? - -Mrs. PAINE. Began to get dinner. Then Lee call the house. - -Mr. JENNER. In the evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. In the early evening. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you talk with him? - -Mrs. PAINE. Marina talked with him, then asked--then Marina asked me -to tell Lee in English what had transpired regarding the possible -job opening, and then I did say that there might be an opening in the -School Book Depository, that Mr. Truly was the man to apply to. Shall I -go on? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. The next day---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, I meant go on as far as the conversation was -concerned. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is all there was. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, I would like to return just for a moment to the -conversation in the Roberts' home. - -Was any possible place of employment in addition to the Texas School -Depository mentioned? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection of any other suggestion as to -possible places of employment? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have no recollection of that. - -Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection of any other, at least two other -places being suggested, and you, in turn, stating that they would be -unsatisfactory, one because an automobile had to be used, or it would -be necessary for Lee to have an automobile, and the other that he was -lacking in the possible qualifications needed? None of that refreshes -your recollection? - -Mrs. PAINE. None of that refreshes my recollection. I certainly -know that I thought, for instance, he couldn't have applied to Bell -Helicopter or to any place apart from the city area. - -Mr. JENNER. But Bell Helicopter was not mentioned? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall it being mentioned. - -Mr. JENNER. Your husband is employed by Bell Helicopter, is he not? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you made an inquiry of your husband as to the -possibility of employment by Lee Harvey Oswald with Bell Helicopter? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I hadn't, especially knowing that he had no way of -getting there. - -Mr. JENNER. Unless he knew how to drive a car? - -Mrs. PAINE. Unless he knew how to drive a car. - -Mr. JENNER. You didn't believe he was proficient enough at this moment -to operate it? - -Mrs. PAINE. We have got on record here that I gave him the first lesson -on the 13th of October. - -Mr. JENNER. And in any event were you aware he had no driver's license? - -Mrs. PAINE. I certainly was. - -Mr. JENNER. Especially that week? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you give him the telephone number and the address of -the Texas School Book Depository on the occasion when you talked to -him, this is the 14th? - -Mrs. PAINE. The address, I don't think so. I probably gave the phone -number. I don't recall that I gave him an address. - -Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to your address book, you have an -entry in your address book of the Texas School Depository, do you not? -Would you turn to that page? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have it here. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there an entry of address of the Texas School Depository -on that page? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; which I believe I made after he gained employment -there. - -Mr. JENNER. Rather than at the time that you advised him of this -possibility? - -Mrs. PAINE. Indeed. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you made an entry of the telephone number of the Texas -School Book Depository on that date? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have and of the address. - -Mr. JENNER. And that is the telephone number and the address of the -Texas School Depository Building where---- - -Mrs. PAINE. On Elm Street. - -Mr. JENNER. I heard you mention the Texas School Depository warehouse. -Did you think the warehouse was at 411 Elm? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. I had seen a sign on a building as I went along one -of the limited access highways that leads into Dallas, saying "Texas -School Book Depository Warehouse" and there was the only building -that had registered on my consciousness as being Texas School Book -Depository. - -I was not aware, hadn't taken in the idea of there being two buildings -and that there was one on Elm, though, I copied the address from the -telephone book, and could well have made that notation in my mind but I -didn't. - -The first I realized that there was a building on Elm was when I heard -on the television on the morning of the 22d of November that a shot had -been fired from such a building. - -Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of this record then I would like to -emphasize you were under the impression then, were you, that Lee Harvey -Oswald was employed? - -Mrs. PAINE. At the warehouse. - -Mr. JENNER. Other than at 411, a place at 411 Elm? - -Mrs. PAINE. I thought he worked at the warehouse. I had in fact, -pointed out the building to my children going into Dallas later after -he had gained employment. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with Lee Harvey Oswald where he -actually was employed, that is the location of the building? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ever mention it? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. There never was any discussion between you and, say, young -Mr. Frazier or Mrs. Randle or anyone in the neighborhood as to where -the place of employment is located? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. It may be significant here to say, my letter to which I -have already referred---- - -Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit No.---- - -Mrs. PAINE. 425, which says, "Lee Oswald is looking for work in -Dallas," does not give a time of day. - -Mr. JENNER. What is the date of that letter? - -Mrs. PAINE. October 14, Monday. - -Mr. JENNER. This is the letter to your mother? - -Mrs. PAINE. But I don't normally write letters any time except when -the children are asleep, they sometimes nap but usually this is in the -evening. - -If it were in the evening it means that he had gotten the suggestion as -to a place to apply, but I didn't mention that. I only mentioned that -he was looking and was discouraged. - -I bring this out simply to say that I had no real hopes that he would -get a job at the School Book Depository. - -I didn't think it too likely that he would, but it was worth a try. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you hear from him then either on the 14th or 15th in -respect to his effort to obtaining employment at the Texas School -Depository? - -Mrs. PAINE. He called immediately on Tuesday, the 15th, after he had -been accepted and said he would start work the next day. - -Mr. JENNER. When you say immediately, what time of day was that? - -Mrs. PAINE. Midmorning I would say, which was contrary to his usual -practice of calling in the early evening. - -Mr. JENNER. By the way, is the call from Dallas, Tex., to Irving a toll -call? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. What is its cost, 10 cents? - -Mrs. PAINE. I expect so. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you answer the phone on the occasion he called? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What happened? - -Mrs. PAINE. He asked for Marina. - -Mr. JENNER. He said nothing to you about his success? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. As soon as you answered he asked for Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he identify himself? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; but I am certain he knew that I knew who he was. - -Mr. JENNER. You recognized his voice, did you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You called her to the phone. - -Did you hear her end of the conversation? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What took place by way of of conversation? - -Mrs. PAINE. She said, "Hurray, he has got a job." Immediately telling -me as she still talked to the telephone that he had been accepted for -work at the school book depository and thanks to me and she said, "We -must thank Mrs. Randle." - -Mr. JENNER. Did you return to the telephone and speak with him? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You did not. Where was he residing then, did you know? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not know. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you had any information that he was not residing at the -YMCA? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. How did you come by that information? - -Mrs. PAINE. He gave me a telephone number, possibly this same weekend. - -Mr. JENNER. That is of importance, Mrs. Paine. Would you give us the -circumstances, please? - -Mrs. PAINE. He said that he was at a---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, where was he when he said this? - -Mrs. PAINE. He was at the home so far as I remember. It might have been -during one of his telephone calls to the house, but I don't think so. -He rarely talked with me when he was out. - -Mr. JENNER. This would be the weekend of what? - -Mrs. PAINE. So this must have been the weekend of the 12th of October, -the same weekend. - -Mr. JENNER. That was the weekend following his return to Dallas on the -7th of October? - -Mrs. PAINE. Fourth of October. - -Mr. JENNER. He departed on the 7th. - -Mrs. PAINE. His return to Dallas, I am sorry. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; now, give it as chronologically as you can; how you -came by that telephone number, the circumstances under which it was -given to you. - -Mrs. PAINE. He said this is the telephone number. - -Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. He said of the room where he was staying, renting a -room, and I could reach him here if she went into labor. - -Mr. JENNER. I see, the coming of the baby was imminent? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. When was the baby expected? - -Mrs. PAINE. Any time after the first week in October. Any time, in -other words. - -Mr. JENNER. The obstetrician predicted the birth of the child as when? - -Mrs. PAINE. As due on the 22d. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Marina have a different notion? - -Mrs. PAINE. She thought it might be due around the 8th. - -Mr. JENNER. So there was a considerable variance in the expectation -between the date and when the baby actually did arrive? When did the -baby actually arrive? - -Mrs. PAINE. On the 20th of October, a Sunday. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he give you more than one telephone number? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. At this occasion did he give you more than one telephone -number? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Just stick to this particular occasion. What telephone -number--did you record it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In what? - -Mrs. PAINE. In ink in my telephone book. - -Mr. JENNER. Your telephone and address book? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you opened that telephone address book to the page in -which you have made that recording? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that the page you identified yesterday? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mr. Chairman, may I examine it for a moment here. - -Now, relate for the record the telephone number that Mr. Oswald gave -you, the first one he gave you on this particular occasion? - -Mrs. PAINE. The number was WH 2-1985. - -Mr. JENNER. And that is at the bottom of the page written in ink. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that in your handwriting? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. What exchange is "WH" in Dallas? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't know. I did not know. I know now, maybe I know, -Whitehall, something. I know now what it is, but I didn't know then. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he on that occasion say anything about where the -apartment or room was? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not. - -Mr. JENNER. He did not give you an address? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Didn't locate it in any area in Dallas? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. All he gave you was the telephone number? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything that would indicate to you that you are -other than free to call him and ask for him by his surname you knew him -by? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not make such a limitation. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it from your testimony that the number was given -to you, at least the discussion was, so that you could call him in -connection with the oncoming event of the birth of his child? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Am I correct about this? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you have mentioned a second number that Mr. Oswald, -Lee Harvey Oswald, gave you. Did you receive that second number -subsequent to the birth of Rachel or prior to that time? - -Mrs. PAINE. Also prior to the birth of Rachel. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, relate for the Commission the circumstances under -which you received a second number? - -Mrs. PAINE. He gave me a second number, I suppose by phone, but I don't -recall. - -Mr. JENNER. When? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was certainly before the birth of the baby because again -it was so that I could reach him if she went to the hospital. - -Mr. JENNER. He called you or related this to you in your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. What? - -Mr. JENNER. He either called you by telephone or he was present in your -home and gave you the second number? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Which recollection serves you best, that he called or that -he gave it to you in your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he say? - -Mrs. PAINE. He said he moved to different rooms, was paying a dollar a -week more, $8 instead of $7; incidentally, I needed to know how much he -was paying in order to put this on the form of Parkland Hospital, but -that it was a little more comfortable and he had television privileges -and privileges to use the refrigerator. And he gave me this number. - -Mr. JENNER. This was after he obtained employment with the Texas School -Book Depository, was it? - -Mrs. PAINE. I would rationalize that I have judged so. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it your best recollection? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. On the second occasion did he give you the location or even -the area in Dallas where his second room was located? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of him? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. No address? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Was the telephone number given you with any reservation as -to when you might call him? - -Mrs. PAINE. No such reservation. - -Mr. JENNER. Any indication that you should ask him, asking for him by -other than his surname by which you knew him? - -Mrs. PAINE. No such indication. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, the baby was born on the---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Twentieth. - -Mr. JENNER. Twentieth of October. Was Lee present, in town, I mean? - -Mrs. PAINE. He was at the house in Irving when labor began, and stayed -at the house to take care of June and my two children who were sleeping -while I took Marina to the hospital since I was the one who could drive. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. The 20th is--when did you take her to the -hospital? - -Mrs. PAINE. Around 9 o'clock in the evening. - -Mr. JENNER. What day? - -Mrs. PAINE. Sunday, the 20th of October. - -Mr. JENNER. And Lee Harvey Oswald was out there on that weekend on one -of his regular visits? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The first one since he had employment. - -Representative FORD. Did you ever call either one of those numbers? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. We will get to it. - -Mr. JENNER. You will forgive me because I would like to bring out the -particular circumstances of the call. - -Representative FORD. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Lee go back into town on Monday to go to work? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did. I informed him in the morning that he had -a baby girl. He was already asleep when I got back--no; that is not -right. He was not asleep when I got back from the hospital, but he had -gone to bed, and I stayed up and waited to call the hospital to hear -what word there was. So, that I knew after he was already asleep that -he had a baby girl. I told him in the morning before he went to work. - -Mr. JENNER. You called him in Dallas? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. I am a little confused. - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I am sorry, I will begin again. I took her to the -hospital and then I returned. I didn't feel I could stay. I thought I -should get back to my children. - -Mr. JENNER. This was Sunday night. - -Mrs. PAINE. Sunday night. - -He went to bed, put Junie to bed. I stayed up and waited until what I -considered a proper time and then called the hospital to hear what news -there was. They had implied I could come and visit, too, but that would -have been incorrect, and learned that he had a baby girl. I then went -to bed and told him in the morning. - -Mr. JENNER. You did not awaken him then? - -Mrs. PAINE. I did not awaken him. I thought about it and I decided if -he was not interested in being awake I would tell him in the morning. - -Mr. JENNER. And the morning was Monday? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Having learned that he was the father of a baby girl, I -assume you told him that? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he go to work that day? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he return to Irving that evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. It was agreed when he left that he would return that -evening. - -Mr. JENNER. How did he--was he brought back to Irving that evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. I imagine Wesley brought him. - -Mr. JENNER. At least you did not? - -Mrs. PAINE. I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he visit with Marina at the hospital that evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. When he arrived it was not decided whether he would go -to the hospital or not. He thought not, and I thought he should, and -encouraged him to go. - -Mr. JENNER. Why did he think he ought not to go? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am uncertain about this. This thought crossed my mind -that perhaps he thought they would find out he was working, but I had -already told them he was working since I had been asked at the hospital -when she was admitted and I mentioned this and it may have changed his -mind about going, but this is conjecture on my part. - -Mr. JENNER. In any event he did go? - -Mrs. PAINE. He did go. It was a good thing as he was the only one -admitted, I was not either a father or grandmother so I was not -permitted to get in. - -Mr. JENNER. I see, and you waited until his visit was over and returned -home with him? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he return to work the next morning? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did. - -Mr. JENNER. When next did you hear from him? - -Mrs. PAINE. The following Friday he came out again. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know how he returned to Dallas that following -morning, that is the 22d? - -Mrs. PAINE. Probably went with Wesley also. - -Mr. JENNER. And he came out the following weekend, did he? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. That was his birthday. - -Mr. JENNER. The 18th of October is his birthday. Did you have a party -for him? - -Mrs. PAINE. We had a cake; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that weekend uneventful? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, Marina was already home. - -Mr. JENNER. The baby was now home. She came home very quickly? - -Mrs. PAINE. Very quickly, a day and a half. She was home on Tuesday, -the 16th, is that right--skipped a day, the 22d. So that his party was -the week before, too. I was wrong then. - -Mr. JENNER. When did he return, on Friday of that week? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, which was the 25th. I was mistaken. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he call in each day in the interim? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And talk to Marina and to you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, to Marina. - -Mr. JENNER. Inquire about the baby? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You overheard some of the conversation? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about the nature of his reaction to his -position at the Texas School Book Depository on the second weekend -when he came home? - -Mrs. PAINE. You are talking about the weekend of the 26th? - -Mr. JENNER. That is right. - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recall anything being said. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, the next weekend was November 1st to 3d, which is -Friday to Sunday, is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he home on that weekend? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he was. - -Mr. JENNER. And did anything eventful occur on that weekend? - -Mrs. PAINE. Just a minute. What I was looking for, I wanted to find out -whether I had taught a Russian lesson to my single student whom I saw -some Saturday afternoon on that weekend, and I recall that I did not. -So, the answer is no. I was there that Saturday. May I say if there was -a weekend other than October 12 when he came on Saturday instead of -Friday night, it was to have been that weekend? - -Mr. JENNER. Which weekend? - -Mrs. PAINE. The weekend of the 1st to the 3d. That is my best -recollection anyway. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. But other than that possibility, there was -nothing--it was a normal weekend at your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, following that weekend, which was the weekend of -November 8 through 10, I think you have already described that weekend. -That was the one on which you went to the Texas driver's application -bureau, is it not? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I recall him writing something on the early morning of -Saturday--this "Dear Sirs" letter. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; this is the letter or draft of letter dealing with his -reporting his visit to Mexico. - -Mrs. PAINE. Or stating that he had done such a thing, which I did not -fully credit. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he come the following weekend, that is the weekend of -November 15 through 17? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Why? - -Mrs. PAINE. Marina asked him not to. - -Mr. JENNER. This was the weekend preceding the ill-fated assassination -day? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Why did she ask him not to? - -Mrs. PAINE. She felt he had overstayed his welcome the previous weekend -which had been 3 days, 9th, 10th, and 11th because he was off Veterans -Day, the 11th of November, and she felt it would be simpler and more -comfortable if he didn't come out. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you had a discussion with her prior to that time on -that subject? - -Mrs. PAINE. I had not suggested that to her. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you overhear her tell him that? - -Mrs. PAINE. I did tell her I was planning a birthday party for my -little girl, and I heard her tell Lee not to come out because I -was having a birthday party. At some point in this same telephone -conversation likely I told him he did not need to have a car but to go -himself to the driver training station. - -Mr. JENNER. You have described that event for us heretofore this -afternoon. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Or this morning, I have forgotten which. - -Mr. McCLOY. May I interrupt here. I wonder whether or not you would -want to take a rest now. We have been pretty arduous and let's take a -little recess now. - -(Short recess.) - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, would you read the last interchange or -question and answer? - -(The reporter read the question and answer.) - -Mr. JENNER. Would you fix as best you can for us, the date or time that -you first saw the wrapped blanket after you had returned to Irving? How -long after that event did you see it to the best of your recollection? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have said it was the latter part of October. I don't -think I can fix it more exactly. - -Mr. JENNER. That would be almost or would be over a month afterwards? -You returned on September 24? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall thinking, that is, that anything like that -marks it as being particular noticeable. So that I am judging that I -recall seeing it in October, somewhere towards the end. - -Mr. JENNER. Had anything occurred at that time that now leads you to -fix it at the latter part of October? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; there is no way that I have to fix it. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you stumble over it or something? - -Mr. McCLOY. Could it have been as early as October 4 or the 7th when -you first got the call from him when he first returned to Dallas? - -Mrs. PAINE. Conceivably, but I don't remember. - -Mr. DULLES. Then you saw it on another occasion, how many days later -was that? - -Mrs. PAINE. I can't fix it that near. - -Mr. DULLES. It was several days later, was it, the time when it seemed -to have been moved from position "X" to position "XX"? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; that was later. - -Mr. McCLOY. Can you place it at all, can you place your recollection at -all as having seen it in relation to the assassination? The date of the -assassination? Was it 2 weeks before, 3 weeks before? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have inquired of myself for some weeks, was such a -package in my station wagon when I arrived from New Orleans, and I -cannot recall it, but I cannot be at all certain that there wasn't. I -certainly didn't unload it. I never lifted such a package. - -Mr. JENNER. Only you and Marina took things out of your station wagon -at that time? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And you did not---- - -Mrs. PAINE. So I think I would have seen it. - -Mr. DULLES. In your earlier testimony I think in reply to a question, -you indicated that you and Marina had only talked about this after the -assassination that afternoon. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. DULLES. If it is not out of order, I would like to get that into -the testimony maybe at this date what took place between them at that -time. - -Mr. JENNER. On the 22d? - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. I think it is best to leave it at the 22d. - -Mr. JENNER. I was going to take her chronologically. - -Mr. DULLES. Just so you recall that. - -Mr. McCLOY. But you can't recall having gone into the garage for any -purpose and having stepped over this thing or around it at any time -that you would associate with his return from New Orleans and Houston, -if he went to Houston? - -Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that it was after, it was in -October, therefore. - -Mr. McCLOY. But later than the 7th of October, you think? - -Mrs. PAINE. Later than that, yes. That is the best I can do. - -Mr. McCLOY. But well before the day of November 22? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I think I have oriented myself without having the reporter -read and may I proceed, Mr. Chairman? - -Mr. McCLOY. Surely. - -Mr. JENNER. We have now reached the weekend of the 15th, 16th, and -17th, which is the weekend that Lee Harvey Oswald did not return to -your home. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You had just finished relating that Marina had told him not -to come that particular weekend? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, was there an occasion during the course of that -weekend when a phone call was made to Lee Harvey Oswald. I direct your -attention particularly to Sunday evening, the 17th of November. - -Mrs. PAINE. Looking back on it, I thought that there was a call made to -him by me on Monday the 18th, but I may be wrong about when it was made. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Marina call him this Sunday evening, November 17? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. There was only one call made at any one time to him, to -my knowledge. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when a call was made to him and -you girls were unable to reach him when that call was made? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I will describe the call, and there is a dispute over -what night it was. - -Mr. JENNER. I would like your best recollection, first as to when it -occurred. Was it during the weekend that he did not return to your -home, the weekend immediately preceding the assassination day? Do you -recall that Marina was lonesome and she wished you to make a call to -Lee and you did so at her request? - -Mrs. PAINE. I recall certainly we had talked with Lee, on the telephone -already that weekend because he called to say that he had been to -attempt to get a driver's license permit. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. Whether he called that Saturday or whether he had called -Sunday, I am not certain. Indeed, I am not certain but what he had -called the very day, had already called and talked with Marina the very -day that I then, at her request, tried to reach him at the number he -had given me, with his number in my telephone book. - -Junie was fooling with the telephone dial, and Marina said, "Let's call -papa" and asked me---- - -Mr. JENNER. Was this at night? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was early evening, still light. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it on a weekend? - -Mrs. PAINE. I would have said it was Monday but I am not certain of -that. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it---- - -Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection, is that it was Monday. - -Mr. JENNER. All we want is your best recollection. If it was a Monday, -was it the Monday following the weekend that he did not come? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, certainly it was. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. That is if it was a Monday, it was the Monday -preceding November 22? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. Was there any evidence that the hint you gave, or that -was given, to Lee Harvey not to come over this weekend caused him any -annoyance? Was he put out by this, and did he indicate it? - -Mrs. PAINE. I made no such request of him. Marina talked with him on -the phone. - -Mr. DULLES. I realize that. - -Mrs. PAINE. And she made no mention of any irritation. Of course, I -didn't hear what he said in response to her asking him not to come. - -Mr. DULLES. And it didn't come out in any of these subsequent telephone -messages which we are now discussing? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I think I probably talked with him during that same -telephone conversation to say that he could go without a car, and there -was no irritation I noticed. - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you. - -Mr. JENNER. But it is your definite recollection that his failure to -come on the weekend preceding the assassination was not at his doing -but at the request of Marina, under the circumstances you have related? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am absolutely clear about that. - -Mr. JENNER. You are absolutely clear about that. All right. Now, state, -you began to state the circumstances of the telephone call. Would you -in your own words and your own chronology proceed with that, please? - -Mrs. PAINE. Marina had said, "Let's call papa," in Russian and asked -me to dial the number for her, knowing that I had a number that he had -given us. I then dialed the number---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, did you dial the first or the second number? - -Mrs. PAINE. The second number. - -Mr. JENNER. And that number is? - -Mrs. PAINE. WH 3-8993. - -Mr. JENNER. When you dialed the number did someone answer? - -Mrs. PAINE. Someone answered and I said, "Is Lee Oswald there?" And the -person replied, "There is no Lee Oswald here," or something to that -effect. - -Mr. JENNER. Would it refresh your recollection if he said, "There is -nobody by that name here"? - -Mrs. PAINE. Or it may have been "nobody by that name" or "I don't know -Lee Oswald." It could have been any of these. - -Mr. JENNER. We want your best recollection. - -Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that he repeated the name. - -Mr. JENNER. He repeated the name? - -Mrs. PAINE. But that is not a certain recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it then from the use of the pronoun that the person -who answered was a man? - -Mrs. PAINE. Was a man. - -Mr. JENNER. And if you will just sit back and relax a little. I would -like to have you restate, if you now will, in your own words, what -occurred? - -You dialed the telephone, someone answered, a male voice? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he say and what did you say? - -Mrs. PAINE. I said, "Is Lee Oswald there." He said, "There is no Lee -Oswald living here." As best as I can recall. This is the substance of -what he said. I said, "Is this a rooming house." He said "Yes." I said, -"Is this WH 3-8993?" And he said "Yes." I thanked him and hung up. - -Mr. JENNER. When you hung up then what did you next do or say? - -Mrs. PAINE. I said to Marina, "They don't know of a Lee Oswald at that -number." - -Mr. JENNER. What did she say? - -Mrs. PAINE. She didn't say anything. - -Mr. JENNER. Just said nothing? - -Mrs. PAINE. She looked surprised. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she evidence any surprise? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she did, she looked surprised. - -Mr. DULLES. You are quite sure you used the first name "Lee," did you, -you did not say just "Mr. Oswald," or something of that kind? - -Mrs. PAINE. I would not say "Mr. Oswald." It is contrary to Quaker -practice, and I don't normally do it that way. - -Mr. JENNER. Contrary to Quaker practice? - -Mrs. PAINE. They seldom use "Mister." - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mr. DULLES. And you wouldn't have said "Harvey Oswald," would you? - -Mrs. PAINE. I knew he had a middle name but only because I filled out -forms in Parkland Hospital. It was never used with him. - -Mr. JENNER. You do recall definitely that you asked for Lee Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. I cannot be that definite. But I believe I asked for him. -Oh, yes; I recall definitely what I asked. I cannot be definite about -the man's reply, whether he included the full name in his reply. - -Mr. JENNER. But you did? - -Mrs. PAINE. I asked for the full name, "Is Lee Oswald there." - -Mr. JENNER. Did you report this incident to the FBI? - -Mrs. PAINE. I had no occasion to see them, and I did not think it -important enough to call them after that until the 23d of November. - -Mr. JENNER. Perhaps I may well have deferred that question until after -I asked you the next. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did any event occur the following day with respect to this -telephone call? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; Lee called---- - -Mr. JENNER. What was it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Lee called at the house and asked for Marina. I was in the -kitchen where the phone is while Marina talked with him, she clearly -was upset, and angry, and when she hung up---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, did you overhear this conversation? - -Mrs. PAINE. I overheard the conversation but I can't tell you specific -content. - -Mr. JENNER. Please, Mrs. Paine, would you do your very best to recall -what was said? - -Mrs. PAINE. I can tell you what she said to me which was immediately -after, which is what I definitely recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you. - -Mrs. PAINE. She said immediately he didn't like her trying to reach -him at the phone in his room at Dallas yesterday. That he was angry -with her for having tried to reach him. That he said he was using a -different name, and she said, "This isn't the first time I felt 22 -fires," a Russian expression. - -Mr. JENNER. This is something she said? - -Mrs. PAINE. She said this. This is not the first time, but it was the -first time she had mentioned it to me. - -Mr. JENNER. Give her exact words to me again. - -Mrs. PAINE. When she felt 22 fires. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the expression she used? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you understand what she meant or, if not, did you ask -for an explanation? - -Mrs. PAINE. I did not ask for an explanation. I judged she meant, -she disagreed with his using a different name, but didn't feel like, -empowered to make him do otherwise or even perhaps ask to as a wife. - -Mr. DULLES. How long a conversation was this. Was it---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Fairly short. - -Mr. DULLES. Fairly short. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection. - -Representative FORD. What day of the month and what day of the week was -this? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, reconstructing it, I thought they succeeded each -other, the original call to the WH number on Monday and his call back -on Tuesday. - -Representative FORD. When he called back it was late in the afternoon -or early evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was the normal time for him to call back, early evening, -around 5:30. - -Mr. JENNER. You have a definite impression she was angry when she hung -up? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was she abrupt in her hanging up. Did she hang up on him? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; she was angry, she was upset. - -Mr. JENNER. And her explanation of her being upset was that he used the -assumed name? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, she didn't explain it as such, but she said he had -used it. - -Mr. JENNER. He was angry with her because you had made the call? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Or she had made it through you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did any further discussion take place between you and -Marina on that subject? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The following day he did not call at the usual time. - -Mr. JENNER. That would be the following day, the 20th? - -Mrs. PAINE. I believe that was a Wednesday and that is how I slipped a -day. - -Mr. JENNER. He didn't call at all on the succeeding day? - -Mrs. PAINE. He didn't call at all, and she said to me as the time for -normally calling passed, "He thinks he is punishing me." - -Mr. JENNER. For what? - -Mrs. PAINE. For having been a bad wife, I would judge, for having done -something he didn't want her to do, the objection. - -Mr. JENNER. To wit, the telephone call about which you have told us? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you and Marina go through a normal day that day, or was -there any other subject of discussion with respect to Lee Oswald on -that day? - -Mrs. PAINE. Nothing I would specifically recall; no. - -Mr. JENNER. This was the 20th of November, a Wednesday? - -Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. Let's proceed with the 21st. Did anything occur on the 21st -with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald, that is a Thursday? - -Mrs. PAINE. I arrived home from grocery shopping around 5:30, and he -was on the front lawn. I was surprised to see him. - -Mr. JENNER. You had no advance notice? - -Mrs. PAINE. I had no advance notice and he had never before come -without asking whether he could. - -Mr. JENNER. Never before had he come to your home in that form without -asking your permission to come? - -Mrs. PAINE. Without asking permission; that is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And he was out on the lawn as you drove up, on your lawn? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. Playing with June and talking with Marina, -who was also out on the lawn. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were, of course, surprised to see him? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you park your car in the driveway as usual? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you walk over to speak with him? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, got out, very likely picked some groceries out of the -car and he very likely picked some up too, and this is I judge what may -have happened. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell the Commission what was said between you and Lee -Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. Between me and Lee Oswald? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; on that occasion. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is not what I recall. I recall talking with Marina on -the side. - -Mr. JENNER. First. Didn't you greet him? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I greeted him. - -Mr. JENNER. And then what did you do, walk in the house? - -Mrs. PAINE. As we were walking in the house, and he must have preceded -because Marina and I spoke in private to one another, she apologized. - -Mr. JENNER. Was Marina out on the lawn also? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir. She apologized for his having come without -permission and I said that was all right, and we said either then or -later--I recall exchanging our opinion that this was a way of making up -the quarrel or as close as he could come to an apology for the fight on -the telephone, that his coming related to that, rather than anything -else. - -Mr. JENNER. That was her reaction to his showing up uninvited and -unexpectedly on that particular afternoon, was it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, it was rather my own, too. - -Mr. JENNER. And it was your own? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And because of this incident of the telephone call and your -not being able to reach him, and the subsequent talk between Lee and -Marina in which there had been some anger expressed, you girls reached -the conclusion the afternoon of November 21 that he was home just to -see if he could make up with Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do I fairly state it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you do that evening? Did you have occasion to note -what he did? - -Mrs. PAINE. We had dinner as usual, and then I sort of bathed my -children, putting them to bed and reading them a story, which put me -in one part of the house. When that was done I realized he had already -gone to bed, this being now about 9 o'clock. I went out to the garage -to paint some children's blocks, and worked in the garage for half an -hour or so. I noticed when I went out that the light was on. - -Mr. JENNER. The light was on in the garage? - -Mrs. PAINE. The light was on in the garage. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this unusual? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, it was unusual for it to be on; yes. I realized that I -felt Lee, since Marina had also been busy with her children, had gone -out to the garage, perhaps worked out there or gotten something. Most -of their clothing was still out there, all of their winter things. They -were getting things out from time to time, warmer things for the cold -weather, so it was not at all remarkable that he went to the garage, -but I thought it careless of him to have left the light on. I finished -my work and then turned off the light and left the garage. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you completed that now? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You stated that he was in the garage, how did you know he -was in the garage? - -Mr. McCLOY. She didn't state that. - -Mrs. PAINE. I didn't state it absolutely. I guessed it was he rather -than she. She was busy with the children and the light had been on and -I know I didn't leave the light on. - -Mr. JENNER. Then, I would ask you directly, did you see him in the -garage at anytime from the time you first saw him on the lawn until he -retired for the night? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Until you retired for the night? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he out on the lawn after dinner or supper? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe so. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you hear any activity out in the garage on that evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Any persons moving about? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. The only thing that arrested your attention was the fact -that you discovered the light on in the garage? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Before you retired? - -Representative FORD. You discovered that when you went out to work -there? - -Mrs. PAINE. When I went out to work there. - -Mr. McCLOY. When you went out there, did you notice the blanket? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically seeing the blanket. I certainly -recall on the afternoon of the 22d where it had been. - -Mr. DULLES. Was there any evidence of any quarreling or any harsh words -between Lee Harvey and Marina that evening that you know of? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there a coolness between them? - -Mrs. PAINE. He went to bed very early, she stayed up and talked with me -some, but there was no coolness that I noticed. He was quite friendly -on the lawn as we---- - -Mr. JENNER. I mean coolness between himself and--between Lee and Marina. - -Mrs. PAINE. I didn't notice any such coolness. Rather, they seemed -warm, like a couple making up a small spat, I should interject one -thing here, too, that I recall as I entered the house and Lee had just -come in, I said to him, "Our President is coming to town." - -And he said, "Ah, yes," and walked on into the kitchen, which was a -common reply from him on anything. I was just excited about this -happening, and there was his response. Nothing more was said about it. - -Mr. DULLES. I didn't quite catch his answer. - -Mrs. PAINE. "Ah, yes," a very common answer. - -Mr. JENNER. He gave no more than that laconic answer? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Had there been any discussion between you and Marina that -the President was coming into town the next day? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything on that subject in the presence of Lee -that evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall anything of that sort. - -Mr. JENNER. What time did you have dinner that evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. 6 or 6:30, I would guess. - -Mr. JENNER. And calling on your recollection, Mrs. Paine, following -dinner do you remember any occasion that evening when Lee was out -of the house and you didn't see him around the house, and you were -conscious of the fact he was not in the house? - -Mrs. PAINE. I was not at anytime of the opinion that he was out of the -house, conscious of it. - -Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection of his being out of the house -anytime that evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. DULLES. Did he do any reading that evening--books, papers, anything? - -Mrs. PAINE. Not to my recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. What were you doing that evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have tried already to describe that after dinner, and -probably after some dishes were done. - -Mr. JENNER. Who did the dishes? - -Mrs. PAINE. Very likely Marina, it depended on who made the meal. I -normally cooked the meal and then she did the dishes or we reversed -occasionally. But I have tried to say I was very likely involved in the -back bedroom and in the bathroom giving the children a bath, getting -them in their pajamas and reading a story for as much as an hour. - -Mr. JENNER. That would take as much as an hour? - -Mrs. PAINE. That takes as much as an hour. - -Mr. JENNER. By this time we are up to approximately 7:30 or 8 o'clock, -are we? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh no; we are up to nearly 9 o'clock by now. We eat from -6:30 to after 7, do some dishes, brings it up toward 8, and then put -the children to bed. - -Mr. JENNER. When you had had your children put to bed and came out of -their room, was Lee, had he then by that time retired? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you have any words with Marina about the light in the -garage? Was that a subject of conversation between you? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; we didn't discuss it. - -Mr. DULLES. You didn't mention it to her? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't discuss it. - -Representative FORD. Did he ever help in the kitchen at all, in any way -whatsoever? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I have said he once did dishes in New Orleans, but -that is about all I recall that he did. - -Representative FORD. But in Dallas, in your home, he never volunteered? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. McCLOY. Marina did help around the house? - -Mrs. PAINE. She helped a great deal. - -Mr. McCLOY. She was a good helper? - -Mrs. PAINE. She is a hard worker. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us, the time you came out of the bedroom and put your -children to bed when you noticed the light in the garage; fix as well -as you can the time of evening. - -Mrs. PAINE. I think it was about 9 o'clock. - -Mr. JENNER. That is when you noticed the light in the garage, around 9 -o'clock after you put your children to bed, and at that time Lee was -already retired? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Marina was still up? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. How long did she remain up? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that evening from that point on much like -any others, with the two of us up, we probably folded some diapers, -laundry. Some evening close to that time, either that evening or the -one before, we discussed plans for Christmas. - -Mr. JENNER. You and Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But it was probably the evening before. I was thinking -about making a playhouse for the children. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you describe Lee's attire when you first saw him on -the lawn when you returned that evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall it. - -Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection of that? Did he bring--do you know -whether he brought anything with him in the way of paper or wrapper or -luggage or this sticky tape, anything of that nature? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall seeing anything of that nature. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see any paper, wrapping paper, of the character -that you have identified around your home that evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. McCLOY. Can't you recall a little more clearly how he generally was -dressed? Did he have a coat on such as I have got on now, or did he -have---- - -Mrs. PAINE. I never saw him in a suit jacket. - -Mr. McCLOY. Suit jacket? What was his normal outer wear apparel? - -Mrs. PAINE. His normal attire was T-shirt, cotton slacks, sometimes the -T-shirt covered by a shirt, flannel or cotton shirt. - -Mr. McCLOY. Do you recall whether he had that type of shirt over his -T-shirt that night? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. - -Mr. McCLOY. You don't recall? - -Mr. JENNER. Did he have any kind of a shirt other than a T-shirt on him -when you saw him? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't really remember. - -Mr. JENNER. I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if despite the fact I haven't -reached the next day, if we might excuse Mrs. Paine? She did tell me -she had an appointment at 5:30 this evening, and I would like to have -her think over more so she can be refreshed in the morning as to this -particular evening. And, Mrs. Paine, I would have you trace the first -thing in the morning as best as you can recall Lee Harvey Oswald's -movements that evening and where he was, to the best that you are able -to recall. Would you try to do that for us? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think I probably have done the best I can, but I will do -it again if you like. - -Mr. JENNER. May we have permission to adjourn, Mr. Chairman? - -Mr. McCLOY. Very well. - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask just one question? With regard to this sketch -of the house, I was interested to know where you would see the light in -the garage. Was it from out here? - -Mrs. PAINE. This is a doorway into the garage from the kitchen area. - -Mr. DULLES. And you saw that light from the kitchen area? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think I was probably on my way to the garage anyway, -opened the door, there was the light on. - -Mr. DULLES. I see. There are no windows or anything. The door was -closed and the light would not be visible if you hadn't gone into it? - -Mrs. PAINE. It would be visible if it was dark in here. - -Mr. DULLES. I understand. Through the door. - -Representative FORD. And you spent about a half hour in the garage -painting some blocks? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Representative FORD. What part of the garage---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Close to the doorway here, the entrance, this entrance. - -Representative FORD. The entrance going into the---- - -Mrs. PAINE. The doorway between the garage and the kitchen-dining area. -Right here. - -Representative FORD. You didn't move around the garage? - -Mrs. PAINE. I moved around enough to get some shellac and brush and -make a place, a block is this big, to paint. - -Representative FORD. Where do you recollect, if you do, the blanket was -at this time? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recollect. It was the next day---- - -Representative FORD. It was the forepart of the garage on the left-hand -side? - -Mrs. PAINE. Beyond. - -Mr. McCLOY. Does anyone have any further questions? - -Mr. JENNER. No questions, Mr. Chairman. - -Representative Ford has directed the attention of the witness to the -document which is now Exhibit No. 430, and when we reconvene in the -morning I will qualify the exhibit. - -Mr. McCLOY. Is that all? - -We will reconvene at 9 a.m., tomorrow. - -(Whereupon, at 5:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -Friday, March 20, 1964 - -TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED - -The President's Commission met at 9:05 a.m. on Friday, March 20, 1964, -at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. - -Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman -Cooper, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and John J. McCloy, members. - -Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Albert E. Jenner, -Jr., assistant counsel; and Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel. - - -Senator COOPER. Mrs. Paine, you, I think, yesterday affirmed, made -affirmation as to the truthfulness of your testimony? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did. - -Senator COOPER. You are still under that affirmation? - -Mrs. PAINE. I understand that I am under that affirmation. - -Mr. JENNER. May I proceed? - -Thank you. Mrs. Paine, just to put you at ease this morning, Mr. -Chairman, may I qualify some documents? - -The CHAIRMAN. Good morning, gentlemen and ladies. How are you, Mrs. -Paine? I am glad to see you this morning. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, I show you Commission Exhibit No. 425 which -you produced and which you testified was the original of a letter of -October 14, 1963, to your mother, part of which you read at large in -the record. Is that document in your handwriting entirely? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. You testified it is a letter from you to your mother? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you dispatch the letter? - -Mrs. PAINE. I did. - -Mr. JENNER. In view of that fact would you explain for the record how -you came into possession of the letter since you sent it to your mother? - -Mrs. PAINE. She gave it to me a few days ago. - -Mr. JENNER. Is the document now in the same condition it was when you -mailed it to your mother? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. You have the first page of two. The other page -not being relative to this case. - -Mr. JENNER. In other words, that there be no question about it, do you -have the other page? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have the other page. - -Mr. JENNER. May I have it? - -Mrs. PAINE. The other page, of course, contains my signature. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. May the record be amended to show that Commission -Exhibit No. ----. - -Mrs. PAINE. I'd rather not have that part of it---- - -Mr. JENNER. It is not going into the record, Mrs. Paine. Just be -patient. Commission Exhibit 425 consists of two pages, that is two -sheets. The pages are numbered from one through four. Would you look at -the page numbered 4? There is a signature appearing at the bottom of -it. Is that your signature? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, may I postpone the offer of this document -in evidence until I do read the second page, which the witness has -now produced. You see, Mrs. Paine, that it may be important to the -Commission to have the entire letter which would indicate the context -in which the statements that are relevant were made. - -You testified yesterday with regard to the draft of what appeared to -be a letter that Mr. Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald, was to send. It was -thought he might send it to someone. I hand you a picture of a letter -in longhand which has been identified as Commission Exhibit 103. Would -you look at that please? Do you recognize that handwriting? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. This is the only time I saw--this is the only -handwriting of his I have seen. - -Mr. JENNER. You can't identify the document as such, that is, are you -familiar enough with his handwriting---- - -Mrs. PAINE. To know that this is his handwriting? - -Mr. JENNER. To identify whether that is or is not his handwriting. - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you ever seen that Document before? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you first see it? - -Mrs. PAINE. I first saw that on Saturday, the 9th of November. I don't -believe I looked to see what it said until the morning of the 10th. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. Now, do you recognize it, however, as a picture of -the document that you did see on the 9th of November, or did you say -10th? - -Mrs. PAINE. I'll say 10th, yes; it is that document. - -Senator COOPER. What is the answer? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is that document. - -Mr. JENNER. And I take it from your testimony that after you had seen -the original of this document, this document happens to be a photo, you -saw a typed transcript of this document or substantially this document? - -Mrs. PAINE. I never saw a typed transcript. - -Mr. JENNER. You did not? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you testified yesterday that Lee Harvey Oswald -asked you if he could use your typewriter? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And he did proceed to use the typewriter to type a letter -or at least some document? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And that you saw a document folded in half and one portion -of it arrested your attention? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Was the document that arrested your attention the typed -document or was it the document that is before you? - -Mrs. PAINE. I never saw the typed document. It was the document that is -before me, which I take to be a rough draft of what he typed. - -Mr. JENNER. And you said you made a duplicate of the document. Did you -make a duplicate in longhand or on your typewriter? - -Mrs. PAINE. I made a duplicate in longhand. - -Mr. JENNER. But you do have a present recollection that this, -Commission Exhibit No. 103 for identification, is the document which -you saw in your home on your desk secretary? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. -103 the document--oh, it is already in evidence. I withdraw that offer. - -Senator COOPER. It is in evidence. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Redlich informs me, Mr. Chairman, that the document has -already been admitted in evidence. - -Now, would you follow me as I go through these? There has been marked -as Commission's Exhibit 430, which is the mark at the moment for -identification, what purports to be a floor plan outline of the Paine -home at 2515 Fifth Street, Irving, Tex., and the witness made reference -to that yesterday close to the close of her testimony yesterday -afternoon. Directing your attention to that exhibit, is that an -accurate floor plan outline of your home at 2515 Fifth Street, Irving, -Tex.? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is an approximately accurate floor plan. - -Mr. JENNER. And is it properly entitled, that is, are the rooms and -sections of the home properly entitled? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they are. - -Mr. JENNER. And does it accurately reflect the door openings, the -hallways in your home and the garage? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is perfectly accurate. - -Mr. JENNER. I think one thing only needs some explanation. In the -upper left-hand corner of the floor plan outline, there is a square -space which has no lettering to identify that space. It is the area -immediately to the left of the--of what is designated as kitchen-dining -area. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. That space is all one room with that which is -designated kitchen-dining area. That is one large room. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. So that even though on the floor plan outline the -words "kitchen-dining area" appear in the right half of that space, -that lettering and wording is to apply to all the space? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And the driveway about which you testified is that portion -of the ground outline which has the circle with the figure "8" and an -arrow, is that right? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is the driveway. - -Mr. JENNER. And the driveway is where the car was parked because the -garage always had too many things in it to get your car in? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Referring to Commission Exhibit No. 431 for identification, -is that a front view of your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you present when the picture was taken? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was. - -Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 432, is that a rear view of your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you present when that was taken? - -Mrs. PAINE. Probably. I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. But that is an accurate depiction? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Of the rear of your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is certainly accurate. - -Mr. JENNER. And showing some of your yard. The next Exhibit 433, is -that a view of the east side of your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. East and north; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And were you present when that was taken? - -Mrs. PAINE. I wouldn't know. - -Mr. JENNER. But it is an accurate depiction of that area of your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 434, is that a view of the west side of -your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. West and north. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you present when that was taken? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Despite that, is it accurate? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is perfectly accurate. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, is Commission Exhibit 435 a view inside your home -looking through the door leading to the garage from your kitchen? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. And were you present when that was taken? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was. - -Mr. JENNER. And is it accurate? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 436, is that a picture of the doorway -area leading to the backyard of your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you present when that was taken? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it accurate? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 437, is that the kitchen area in your -home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, were you present when that was taken? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was. - -Mr. JENNER. And is it accurate? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Returning now to the floor plan exhibit, Commission -Exhibit 430, is Commission Exhibit 437, which is the kitchen area in -your home, that portion of Commission Exhibit 430 which is lettered -"kitchen-dining area." - -Mrs. PAINE. It is a picture of that portion. - -Mr. JENNER. Of that portion, rather than the portion to the left which -is unlettered? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. The garage interior we identified yesterday. By the way, -have you ever been in the Randle home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you been there often enough to identify a floor plan -and pictures of the Randle home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I have been there perhaps once or twice. - -Mr. McCLOY. Do you intend to call Mrs. Randle? - -Mr. JENNER. Unfortunately Mrs. Randle has already testified and Mr. -Ball when he questioned her did not have this exhibit. It wasn't in -existence. - -I show you a page marked Commission Exhibit No. 441 entitled "Randle -Home, 2439 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex.," purporting to be a floor -plan outline of the Randle home. You have been in the Randle home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. - -Mr. JENNER. On several occasions? - -Mrs. PAINE. Two or three; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And are you familiar with the general area of the Randle -home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Surrounding the Randle home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Indeed; I am. - -Mr. JENNER. And looking at Commission Exhibit 441, is that an accurate -floor plan outline and general community outline of the Randle home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I would say it is. - -Mr. JENNER. I show you Commission Exhibit 442. Is that an accurate and -true and correct photograph showing the corner view of the Randle home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 443, is that an accurate photograph of a portion of -the kitchen portion, the front of the kitchen window of the Randle home? - -Mrs. PAINE. I believe so. - -Mr. JENNER. Does your recollection serve you---- - -Mrs. PAINE. I am trying to see if I know which is west and north there -and I am not certain. - -Mr. JENNER. Let us return to the floor plan. - -Mrs. PAINE. This would be, yes, that is what I thought. This is looking -then west. - -Mr. JENNER. You have now oriented yourself. And is it an accurate -picture of the front of the kitchen? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Senator COOPER. Which exhibit are you referring to now? - -Mr. JENNER. The front of the Randle home No. 443. The next number, 444, -is that an accurate photograph of the area of the Randle home showing a -view from the field from the Randle's kitchen window? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is accurate. - -Mr. JENNER. Across the street? - -Mrs. PAINE. Correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 445, is that an accurate photograph of -the kitchen of the Randle home looking at the direction of the carport -from the Randle home? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is an accurate picture showing the door opening to the -carport; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And the kitchen portion of the Randle home facing on the -carport? - -Mrs. PAINE. Correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been in the carport area of the Randle home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. - -Mr. JENNER. And is Commission Exhibit 446 a view of a portion of the -carport area of the Randle home? - -Mrs. PAINE. It looks like it. - -Mr. JENNER. Now 447 is a photograph taken from the street looking -toward the Randle home, is that right? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And it is the west side of the Randle house? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Showing that carport area? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And it is accurate, isn't it? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is accurate. - -Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 438, is that an accurate photograph of -the area of Irving Street showing not only the Randle house but also -your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is accurate. - -Mr. JENNER. And is Commission Exhibit 448---- - -Senator COOPER. What was the number of the photograph which you just -referred to? - -Mr. JENNER. 438. 438 is view looking northeast showing the Paine home -at the left and the Randle home at the far right. Directing your -attention to Commission Exhibit 448, is that an accurate photograph -showing a view of the Randle home looking West Fifth Street? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is Commission Exhibit 438 an accurate photograph showing a -view looking west along Fifth Street to your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. And is the arrow that appears on that photograph--does that -point to your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is Commission Exhibit No. 450, which I now show you, an -accurate photograph of the intersection of Westbrook Drive and West -Fifth Street viewed from immediately outside the Randle kitchen window? - -Mrs. PAINE. It looks to be exactly that. - -Mr. JENNER. I now show you Commission Exhibit No. 440 entitled "Paine -and Randle homes, Irving, Tex." which purports to be, and I believe is, -a scale drawing of the area in Irving, Tex., along West Fifth Street -and Westbrook Drive, in which your home at 2515 West Fifth Street is -shown in outline, and the location and form of the Randle home down the -street and on the corner is likewise shown. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that accurate? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is accurate. - -Senator COOPER. Are you going to make part of the record these exhibits -which she has identified? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; I am about to offer these and I would ask Mr. Redlich -if he would assemble the exhibit numbers so I can make the offer, -please. - -Mrs. Paine, now that you have had a rest over night, we would like to -return to the late afternoon and the evening of November 21. Did Lee -Harvey Oswald come to Irving, Tex., at anytime that day? - -Mrs. PAINE. He came some time shortly before 5:30 in the evening on the -21st. - -Mr. JENNER. Had either you or Marina, I limit it to you first, had you -had any notice or intimation whatsoever that Lee Harvey Oswald would -appear on that day? - -Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely none. - -Mr. JENNER. And his appearance was a complete surprise to you? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Did anything occur during the day or during that week up to -the time that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald that afternoon that impressed -you or led you to believe that Marina had any notion whatsoever that -her husband would or might appear at your home on that day? - -Mrs. PAINE. Nothing. I rather had the contrary impressions. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, what was your first notice, what was the circumstances -that brought your attention to the fact that Lee Harvey Oswald was in -Irving, Tex., that afternoon. - -Mrs. PAINE. I arrived home from the grocery store in my car and saw he -was on the front lawn at my house. - -Mr. JENNER. You had had no word whatsoever from anybody prior to that -moment? - -Mrs. PAINE. No word whatsoever. - -Mr. JENNER. Now where was he? And we may use the exhibits we have just -identified. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence the photographs and the -floor plans and the area outlines the witness has just identified and -testified about as they are Commission Exhibit Nos. 429 through 448 -both inclusive, and 450 and 452. - -Senator COOPER. The exhibits offered will be received in evidence. - -(Commission Exhibits Nos. 429 through 448 both inclusive, and 450 and -452 were received in evidence.) - -The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cooper, at this time I am obliged to leave for -our all-day conference on Friday at the Supreme Court, and I may be -back later in the day, but if I don't, you continue, of course. - -Senator COOPER. I will this morning. If I can't be here this afternoon, -whom do you want to preside? - -The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, would you be here this afternoon at all? - -Representative FORD. Unfortunately Mr. McCloy and I have to go to a -conference out of town. - -The CHAIRMAN. You are both going out of town, aren't you? - -Senator COOPER. I can go and come back if it is necessary. - -The CHAIRMAN. I will try to be here myself. Will Mr. Dulles be here? - -Mr. McCLOY. He is out of town. - -The CHAIRMAN. If you should not finish, Mr. Jenner, will you phone me -at the Court and I will try to suspend my own conference over there and -come over. - -Senator COOPER. I will be here anyway all morning and will try to come -back this afternoon. - -The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. Mrs. Paine, I want to thank you for -coming and for being so patient with our long questioning. - -Mrs. PAINE. I am glad to do what I can. - -The CHAIRMAN. You know that it is necessary. - -Mrs. PAINE. Indeed. - -The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. - -Mr. JENNER. You might use the ruler, and I have set the floor plan and -the area plan of your home, Mrs. Paine, Exhibit 430, on the blackboard. -As you testify, it might be helpful to point to those areas. Now in -which direction were you coming? - -Mrs. PAINE. I was coming from the east. - -Mr. JENNER. From the east? - -Mrs. PAINE. Along West Fifth. - -Mr. JENNER. You were going west. Your home is on the right-hand side. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you first sight, where were you when you first saw -Lee in your courtyard? - -Mrs. PAINE. Just past the corner of Westbrook and Fifth. - -Mr. JENNER. That area is open from that point to your home; is it? - -Mrs. PAINE. The area of the front yard; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Your home is well set back from the street or sidewalk? - -Mrs. PAINE. Moderately set back. - -Mr. JENNER. What would you judge that distance to be? - -Mrs. PAINE. Two car lengths from the opening of the garage to the -sidewalk. - -Mr. JENNER. Now where was Lee Oswald when you first saw him? - -Mrs. PAINE. He was on the grass just to the east of the driveway. - -Mr. JENNER. Near the driveway just to the east, but he was out in front -of your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you do then? You proceeded down the street? - -Mrs. PAINE. I parked my car, yes; parked my car in its usual position -in the driveway. - -Mr. JENNER. In your driveway? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Up close to the garage opening? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And that left you then, you were on the left side or the -driving side of your automobile. You got out, did you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Which way? Did you get out to your left or did you swing -across the seat and get out at the right hand door? - -Mrs. PAINE. I got out on the driver's side, on the left. - -Mr. JENNER. Then what did you do? First tell us what you did. Did you -go into your home directly? Did you walk around? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. I greeted Lee and Marina, who were both on the front -lawn. - -Mr. JENNER. Was their daughter June out in front as well? - -Mrs. PAINE. Their daughter June was out in front. It was warm. Lee was -playing with June. - -Mr. JENNER. How was he attired? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically. - -Mr. JENNER. You said that he normally wore a T-shirt. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he in a T-shirt or shirt? - -Mrs. PAINE. I'd be fairly certain he didn't have a jacket on, but that -whatever it was was tucked in. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the color of his trousers? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Now at that point you were surprised to see him? - -Mrs. PAINE. I was. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you say to him? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. But you do recall greeting him? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't recall that you evidenced any surprise that he -was there? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I think I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Had there ever been an occasion prior thereto that he had -appeared at your home without prior notice to you and permission from -you for him to appear? - -Mrs. PAINE. There had been no such occasion. He had always asked -permission prior to coming. - -Mr. JENNER. And there never had been an exception to that up to this -moment? - -Mrs. PAINE. No exception. - -Mr. JENNER. May we have the time again? You say it was late in the -afternoon, but can you fix the time a little more? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was getting on toward 5:30. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you tarry and talk with Lee and Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. I remember only that Marina and I were still on the grass -at the entryway to the house when she spoke of her embarrassment to me -in an aside, that is to say, not in Lee's hearing, that she was sorry -he hadn't called ahead and asked if that was all right. And I said -"Why, that is all right." - -Mr. JENNER. Nothing was said by her as to why he had come out? - -Mrs. PAINE. Nothing. - -Mr. JENNER. And nothing was---- - -Mrs. PAINE. She was clearly surprised also. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. You made no inquiry of her I take it then of any -explanation made by Lee Oswald as to why he had come out unannounced -and unexpectedly? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. At least not as of that moment. - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Now when you had your aside with Marina, where was Lee -Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. On the grass near the tree playing with June as closely as -I can remember. - -Mr. JENNER. How long did you and Marina remain in conversation at that -place, position? - -Mrs. PAINE. Less than a minute. - -Mr. JENNER. Then what did you do? - -Mrs. PAINE. I can only reconstruct it. - -Mr. JENNER. That is all I am asking you to do. - -Mrs. PAINE. I must have gotten groceries from the car. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean reconstruct in the sense of rationalizing? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I wish you would give me first your recollection. - -Mrs. PAINE. I am certain of going into the house, and I recall standing -just inside the doorway. - -Mr. JENNER. Of your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Of my home. - -Mr. JENNER. But inside the home? - -Mrs. PAINE. But inside now. - -Mr. JENNER. Which way were you facing when you were standing inside the -doorway? - -Mrs. PAINE. I was facing partly toward the door, toward the loud -speaker. I was facing this way. - -Mr. JENNER. Why were you facing outwardly? - -Mrs. PAINE. I believe I turned. I was coming in. I believe I turned to -speak to Lee as he came in. - -Mr. JENNER. Lee followed you in the house? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And did Marina come in? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall whether she was already in or still out. - -Mr. JENNER. But you do have a recollection that Lee followed you into -your home. - -Mrs. PAINE. And I recall very clearly the position I was in in the room -and the position he was in. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us. - -Mrs. PAINE. I was turned part way toward the door. He was coming in, -having just entered the door and in front of this loud speaker to which -I refer. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the loud speaker? - -Mrs. PAINE. The loud speaker is part of the Hi-Fi set. It stands--it is -a big thing. - -Mr. JENNER. Did something occur at that moment? - -Mrs. PAINE. And it was at that time that I said to him "Our President -is coming to town." I believe I said it in Russian, our President is -coming to town in Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. And you gave us his response yesterday but you might do it -again. - -Mrs. PAINE. He said "Uh, yeah" and brushed on by me, walked on past. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he have an attitude of indifference? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was clearly both indifference and not wanting to go on -and talk, because he moved away from me on into the kitchen. - -Mr. JENNER. He went into your kitchen. What did you do? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically. - -Mr. JENNER. We are anxious to follow minute by minute, to the extent -possible, all the movements of which you had any knowledge of Lee -Oswald on this late afternoon and throughout the evening. Did Lee -Oswald remain in your presence right at this time when you entered the -house? If so, how long? You had this short conversation. Did he leave -your presence then and go to some other part of your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. He might have gone to some other part of the home. He -didn't leave the house to my recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. I didn't mean to imply that, only whether he remained in -the general area in which you were in your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he pass from your sight? - -Mrs. PAINE. Probably. - -Mr. JENNER. Before you guess about it, give us your best recollection. - -Senator COOPER. Tell what you remember. - -Mr. McCLOY. Yes; just in your own words tell us what your best -recollection of this afternoon was without second to second sequence. - -Mrs. PAINE. Clearly just having come from the grocery store I put the -bags down in the kitchen and unpacked them, put them away, started -supper. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any sense that Lee Oswald was in and about the -inside of the house while you were doing this? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection that he did not go out into the -yard during this period? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. If he did, it would have been the back. It -would have been unusual for him to go in the front yard. - -Mr. JENNER. Now you were preparing your dinner in your kitchen, were -you not? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And does the entrance to your garage--is there an entrance -to your garage opening from your kitchen into the garage? - -Mrs. PAINE. There is an entrance to the garage from the kitchen; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And one of the exhibits we qualified this morning is a -picture of that area of your home, is it not? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Your answer was yes? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. At anytime while you were preparing dinner was Lee Oswald -in the garage? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were aware of that fact, were you? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection that he was not in the garage -while I was preparing dinner. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know where he was while you were preparing dinner? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to look into your garage area at -anytime during the period you were preparing dinner? - -Mrs. PAINE. Not that I recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Where was Marina during the period you were preparing -dinner? - -Mrs. PAINE. I'd have to guess. - -Senator COOPER. Just tell what you know. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell what you know first. - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection with respect to whether she was -inside the house or outside the house? - -Mrs. PAINE. I recall that she was inside the house. - -Mr. JENNER. And where was the child June with respect to whether she -was inside or outside the house? - -Mrs. PAINE. She was inside. - -Mr. JENNER. Having located Marina and the Oswald daughter inside your -home, does that refresh your recollection as to whether Lee was also -inside the house? - -Mrs. PAINE. As far as I remember, he was also inside the house. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he playing with his daughter? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. How long did it take you to prepare dinner? - -Mrs. PAINE. Probably half an hour. - -Mr. JENNER. I am unaware of the shades of evening and night in Texas. -By the time you had completed dinner had night fallen or was it still -light? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. What time does nightfall come in Texas in November, late -November? - -Mrs. PAINE. I would say between 7 and 7:30. - -Mr. JENNER. I shouldn't have been as broad as I was. I meant to locate -it in Irving, Tex., rather than Texas generally. About 7:30? - -Mrs. PAINE. Between 7 and 7:30. I don't know exactly. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you sit down for dinner? - -Mrs. PAINE. I suppose around 6:30. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that your best recollection? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it still light outside, natural light? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Lee Oswald join you for dinner? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did. - -Mr. JENNER. And how long did dinner take? - -Mrs. PAINE. Perhaps half an hour. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he remain in your presence during all of the dinner -period? - -Mrs. PAINE. Either there or in the living room. - -Mr. JENNER. At anytime during the dinner period, did Lee Oswald leave -your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You have a firm recollection of that? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. At anytime during that period did Lee Oswald enter the -garage area? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. Not to my recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you? - -Mrs. PAINE. The deepfreeze is in the garage. I don't recall having -gone, but I go all the time for goods for the baby, for my little boy. - -Mr. JENNER. And did you use anything from the deepfreeze normally, in -connection with the preparation of an evening meal? - -Mrs. PAINE. I could have gone out then too. - -Mr. JENNER. Though you don't recall it specifically, it is possible -that you went into the garage. - -Mrs. PAINE. It is possible. - -Mr. JENNER. Garage area. - -Senator COOPER. But you don't remember? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't remember. This is something I do as habit. - -Mr. JENNER. It is so much habit that you don't single it out? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. In any event, if you entered the garage, it was pursuant to -a normal practice of preparing dinner and not because you were seeking -to look for something out of the ordinary? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Or that your attention was arrested by something out of the -ordinary? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. After the dinner hour or half hour, whatever it took, what -did you do? Let's take say the 1-hour period following your dinner? - -Mrs. PAINE. I was busy putting my children to bed. - -Mr. JENNER. Where were you located during that period of time? - -Mrs. PAINE. I normally read them a story in the bedroom which is the -back bedroom on the north side. - -Senator COOPER. Did you do it that evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Senator COOPER. Not normally but do you remember that you did it? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am certain I read them a story. - -Senator COOPER. What? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am certain I read them a story. Whether they also had a -bath that night I can't remember. - -Mr. JENNER. Now being in your children's bedroom, which I take it was -also your bedroom---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That would be the rear portion of your home at the corner? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. When you were in that room, what can you see with respect -to other portions of your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. The view from the bedroom door. - -Mr. JENNER. Looking into what? - -Mrs. PAINE. Looking west looks into the kitchen-dining area right past -the doorway entrance to the garage. - -Mr. JENNER. Can you see into the living room area of your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. From that doorway you can; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. If you stand in the doorway, I take it you can do so. - -Mrs. PAINE. But sitting on the bed reading a story; no. - -Mr. JENNER. But if you stood in the middle of the room and looked out -that doorway from your bedroom, you would look into the kitchen area, -not into the living room area? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. How long did you remain in your bedroom putting your -children to bed? - -Mrs. PAINE. That process can take as much as an hour and often does. - -Mr. JENNER. Give us your very best recollection of how long it took -this evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically how long. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection that you pursued your normal course -in getting them to bed. You read a story, I take it, did you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you undressed the children and placed them in the crib -or bed and you say that normally takes approximately an hour? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you remained in the bedroom during all of that 1 hour -period? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I wouldn't be certain of that; no. I also prepare a -bottle which involves going to the kitchen, and heating milk. I also -chase my children. They don't always just stay in the bedroom. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald either in or about your home -from time to time during this hour period that you were preparing your -children for sleep that evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically except that I was aware he was -in the home. - -Senator COOPER. How would you be aware he was in the home? - -Mrs. PAINE. I would have noticed it if he had gone out the door it -seems to me, out the front door. One can easily hear, and that would be -an unusual thing. - -Mr. JENNER. Why would it be unusual? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, he never did go out the front door in the evening. - -Mr. JENNER. Once he entered your home his normal practice was to stay -inside? - -Mrs. PAINE. Was to turn on the television set and sit. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he turn on the television set? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe he watched television that evening. - -Mr. JENNER. Could you tell us of any awareness on your part of his -presence in the home, that is you were definitely conscious that he -remained inside the house? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And was not out in the yard? - -Senator COOPER. How would you know that? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is a small house. You can hear if the front door or the -back door opens. But I can't be absolutely certain. - -Senator COOPER. Is what you are saying that you don't remember, or -rather that you don't remember that the front door or the back door did -open? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. I am also saying there is very little about -that evening that stood out as unusual. I have tried to say what I -could think of that did stand out as unusual. I think the rest melds -together with other evenings which were similar. - -Senator COOPER. I don't want to interrupt you but I think she has got -to tell what she remembers that evening. - -Mr. McCLOY. Yes. I think without the meticulous minute by minute, just -say what it is. - -Senator COOPER. If you don't remember, you don't remember. - -Mrs. PAINE. I am sorry. - -Mr. McCLOY. You can't break it down into sequence that far back? - -Senator COOPER. Just tell what you remember. - -Mr. JENNER. Go ahead and tell us, Mrs. Paine, the course of events that -evening, with particular reference to what we are interested in, what -Lee Oswald did and where he was during the course of that evening. - -Mrs. PAINE. I have already said that after I had my children in bed, I -went to the garage to work. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it now nighttime? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was now dark, I recall about 9 o'clock. I noticed that -the light was on. - -Mr. JENNER. Was the door to the garage open? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; it was closed. - -Mr. JENNER. It was closed. And you noticed the light on when you opened -the door. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Had the light been on at anytime to your knowledge prior to -that? - -Mrs. PAINE. Not that evening; no. - -Mr. JENNER. When entering and leaving the garage during the course of -your preparing dinner, to your recollection, was there any light on at -that time? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You didn't turn the light on at anytime up to this moment -of which you speak? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Senator COOPER. Had you been in the garage that evening before the time -that you found the light on? - -Mrs. PAINE. If I had only in this course of habit which also included -if it was dark, flipping the switch on and flipping it off. - -Senator COOPER. You don't remember if you did that or not before. - -Mrs. PAINE. Specifically, no. - -Mr. McCLOY. She said she might have been. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that a hand switch? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You must trip it. Where is the switch located, in the -kitchen or in the garage? - -Mrs. PAINE. The switch is in the garage. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, the witness has before her Commission Exhibit -435, which is a picture of her home, looking through the door leading -to the garage from the kitchen. Is the light switch shown in that -picture? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; it is not. - -Mr. JENNER. And why is it not shown? - -Mrs. PAINE. The light switch that turns on the light in the garage is -on the interior of the garage approximately through the wall from the -switch you see in the picture, which lights the kitchen, or the dining -area overhead light. - -Mr. JENNER. And the switch that is shown in the picture, is it to the -right of the doorjamb? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And rather high? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Placed high, and on the picture it is shown as having, oh, -is that a white plastic plate? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is exactly. - -Mr. JENNER. And the switch that lights the garage light is directly -opposite on the other side of the wall inside the garage? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now directing your attention to Commission Exhibit 429, -that is a picture, is it not, of the garage interior of your home taken -from the outlet door of the garage and looking back toward the kitchen? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that correct? And does that show the doorway from the -garage into your kitchen? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In other words, the opposite side of the wall, which is -shown in Commission Exhibit 435? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And are you able to locate the light switch on Commission -Exhibit 429 which is the garage interior exhibit? That is, can you see -the switch? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I am not certain I can. This is something else. - -Mr. JENNER. I point out to you the configuration which is halfway down -the garage doorjamb outline. - -Mrs. PAINE. Right next to the top surface of the deepfreeze. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. Is that the light switch? - -Mrs. PAINE. I thought it was higher. - -Senator COOPER. You know there is a light switch there, don't you? - -Mr. McCLOY. There is a light switch there. - -Mrs. PAINE. I know I don't pull the string which is there clearly in -the picture. - -Mr. JENNER. You step down into the garage do you, or is it at the -kitchen floor level? - -Mrs. PAINE. Are you still asking? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. No; you don't step down, perhaps 3 inches all together. - -Mr. JENNER. The floor of the garage and the floor of the kitchen are at -a level? - -Mrs. PAINE. Approximately at a level. - -Mr. JENNER. Why did you enter the garage on that occasion? - -Mrs. PAINE. I was about to lacquer some children's large blocks, -playing blocks. - -Mr. JENNER. These are blocks that you had cut at some other time? - -Mrs. PAINE. I had cut them on the saw in the garage; yes; previously. - -Mr. JENNER. Proceed. - -Representative FORD. Mr. Jenner, may I ask a question there? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Representative FORD. Some people have a habit of turning lights on and -off again regularly. Others are a little careless about it. Would you -describe your attitude in this regard? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am definitely a person with the habit of turning them off. - -Representative FORD. This is a trait that you have? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Representative FORD. Now, if you were to go out from the kitchen to the -garage, is it easy for you as you go out the door to turn the light on? - -Mrs. PAINE. And off; yes. - -Representative FORD. It is very simple for you to do so? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Representative FORD. Both going out and coming in? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Representative FORD. And as you go out on your right or left? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is on my left as I go out of the garage. - -Representative FORD. And as you come in from the garage to the kitchen -it is on your right. - -Mrs. PAINE. As you come into the garage from the kitchen---- - -Mr. McCLOY. When you are going out to the garage, on which side is it? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is on my right. - -Mr. McCLOY. On your right. Coming out from the garage to the kitchen it -is on your left? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is what he said. - -Mr. McCLOY. You said it just the opposite, I think. - -Representative FORD. I thought I asked the question and she responded -in the reverse. - -Mr. McCLOY. Maybe. - -Representative FORD. And it surprised me a little bit. The record may -show two different responses there. - -Mr. JENNER. Could we recover that now? - -Mrs. PAINE. The switch is on the west doorjamb of that door between the -two rooms. - -Mr. JENNER. Perhaps that may help, Mrs. Paine. When you are in the -kitchen about to enter the garage, the doorway from the kitchen to the -garage, and you are going to enter from the kitchen into the garage, -where is the switch with respect to whether it is on your right side or -your left side? - -Mrs. PAINE. Just coming into the garage it is on my right side. - -Mr. JENNER. That is leaving your kitchen entering the garage it is on -your right side. Now when you are in the garage and you are about to -enter the kitchen, the switch then is on your left? Is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Representative FORD. That clarifies it. May I now ask in your -observations of either Marina or Lee, were they the type that were -conscious of turning light switches on or off? Was this an automatic -reaction? Were they careless about it? What was their trait if you have -any observation? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall any other time that the garage light had -been left on, and I would say certainly I saw enough of Marina to be -able to state what I thought would be a trait, and she would normally -turn off a light when she was done, in the room. - -Representative FORD. She had the normal reaction of turning a light off -if she left a room? - -Mrs. PAINE. Her own room. Now you see most of the rooms--if she was -the last one in the room she would turn it off; yes; going to bed or -something like that she certainly would turn it off. - -Mr. JENNER. Of course if she was going to bed she would turn the light -off. But when she was leaving the room, was it her tendency to turn off -the light? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, the garage light is the only room in my house you -leave not to come back to right away. The whole house is active all the -time until bedtime. It is hard to answer. - -Mr. JENNER. So the lights are on? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Representative FORD. Would you make any observation about Lee's -tendencies or traits in this regard? - -Mrs. PAINE. I can't say I have observation as to his tendencies. - -Mr. JENNER. It was your habit, however, as far as you are concerned -with respect to the light in the garage to turn it off when you left -the garage? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What were your habits with respect to closing the main -garage door, that is the door opening onto the street? - -Mrs. PAINE. That was always closed except to open just to take out the -trash can. - -Mr. JENNER. And though it is shown in one of the photographs as open. - -Mrs. PAINE. That was done for the purpose of the photograph by the FBI. - -Mr. JENNER. So that normally your garage door is down? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it down when you arrived? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was. - -Mr. JENNER. At your home when you were surprised to see Lee Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it certainly was. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have recollection whether anytime that evening of -hearing the garage door being raised or seeing the garage door up? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have no such recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection that it was down at all times? - -Mrs. PAINE. I wasn't in the garage. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, you entered the garage did you not that evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. Except then; yes, at 9 or so. It was certainly down. - -Mr. JENNER. It was down then? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You say your home is small and you can hear even the front -door opening. Does the raising of the garage door cause some clatter? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it does. - -Mr. JENNER. And had the garage door been raised, even though you were -giving attention to your children, would you have heard it? - -Mrs. PAINE. If it was raised slow and carefully; no, I would not have -heard it. - -Mr. JENNER. But if it were raised normally? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You would have heard it. And it is your recollection that -at no time that evening were you conscious of that garage door having -been raised. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. You had reached the point at which you said you entered the -garage to, did you say, lacquer some blocks which you had prepared? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you notice in the garage when you entered it to -lacquer those blocks? - -Mrs. PAINE. The garage was as I always found it, and I went and got the -lacquer from the workbench on the west side of the garage and painted -the blocks on top of the deepfreeze. My motions were in the interior -portion. - -Mr. JENNER. That is in the area of the garage near the kitchen entrance? - -Mrs. PAINE. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. How long were you in the garage on that occasion? - -Mrs. PAINE. About a half an hour. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you leave the garage light on while you worked in the -garage? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You are definitely conscious, however, of the fact that -when you entered the garage the light was on? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am certain of that. I thought it quite sloppy to have -left it on. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you make any inquiry of Marina or of Lee Oswald as to -the light having been left on? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. No comment at all? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is my recollection that by the time I was ready to go to -the garage to work, say 9 o'clock, Lee had already retired. - -Mr. JENNER. Now we would like to know, tell us how you were definitely -conscious that he had retired by that time? - -Mrs. PAINE. He was in the bedroom. Traffic between the bedroom where he -was and the bathroom crosses in front of the doorway, the front of the -room where I was. - -Senator COOPER. Did you see him in the bedroom? - -Mrs. PAINE. In the bedroom? - -Senator COOPER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. No; but I'd be---- - -Senator COOPER. What? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; but I'd be fairly certain I saw him go to it. - -Senator COOPER. You saw him go to it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You saw him passing back and forth from the bedroom to the -bathroom and he had his ablutions and then returned to the bedroom to -retire, is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. That is your definite consciousness? - -Mrs. PAINE. All of this was so common that I made no specific note of -it. - -Senator COOPER. I think you have got to tell what you remember that -night. If you can't remember it, you can't remember it. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. But you do remember him passing back and forth from the -bedroom that he and Marina normally occupied when he was there, and -she occupied when she was there, to the bathroom, and then back to the -bedroom. You do have that recollection? - -Mrs. PAINE. I recall specifically the feeling that he was in the room, -and this grounded no doubt in his having been back and forth as you -have described. - -Mr. JENNER. You remained in the garage about a half hour lacquering -your children's blocks. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You left the garage then, did you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. And where did you go when you left the garage? - -Mrs. PAINE. To the kitchen or living room. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see anybody when you entered the kitchen or living -room? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; Marina was still up. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see Lee Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see Lee Oswald anytime from that moment forward -until you retired for the evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. I saw Lee Oswald at no time from that moment forward. - -Mr. JENNER. The answer to my question is no? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you speak with him or he with you at anytime from that -moment forward until you retired? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you conscious that he spoke to Marina at anytime from -that moment forward until you retired that evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. I was not conscious that he spoke to Marina; no. - -Mr. JENNER. Or she with him? - -Mrs. PAINE. Or she with him. - -Mr. JENNER. What time that evening did you retire? - -Mrs. PAINE. I would guess around 11 or 11:30. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Marina remain up and retire at anytime or had she -retired earlier? - -Mrs. PAINE. It seems to me we remained up and retired at about the same -time, having folded laundry on the sofa before we retired, and talked. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you looking at the television while you were doing the -folding? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. I don't think so. - -Mr. JENNER. Now let us return to the garage for a moment. When you were -in the garage for the half hour, did you notice the blanket wrapped -package you testified about yesterday? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't specifically recall seeing it; no. - -Mr. JENNER. You first weren't conscious of it? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. You didn't stumble over it. - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. It wasn't drawn to your attention in any fashion. Is that -correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, as you and Marina sat that evening, folding the -ironing, what did you discuss? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion that might serve to refresh your -recollection, any discussion of the fact that Lee Oswald had come home -or come to Irving in the first place on a Thursday afternoon, which is -unusual, or that he had come home unannounced and without invitation, -which also as you have testified was unusual? Wasn't there any -discussion between you and Marina, speculation at least on your part as -to why he was home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, there was discussion. I can't recall exactly what time -in the evening it took place but I recall the content of the discussion. - -Mr. JENNER. You tell us about it. - -Mrs. PAINE. She suggested that he was making up the quarrel that they -had had because of her attempt to reach him by telephone, and I agreed, -concurred with that judgment of it. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the attitude that evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. He was very warm and friendly. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there anything unusual about his attitude and conduct -that evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. Nothing except he went to bed a little earlier than he -normally would have on a Sunday evening before work. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you conscious of the fact that he was retiring a -little earlier than he normally would? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And did you speculate in your mind as to why that might be? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. I knew that he would go to bed as early as 10 o'clock -say on the Sunday evening before going to work the next day. This was -just, still early. - -Mr. JENNER. What was Marina's attitude toward him that evening? Was she -reserved because of this quarrel? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. I think she felt the best thing was to pass it by and -not discuss it. - -Mr. JENNER. That was your impression of her? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Of her conduct. - -Senator COOPER. That is just your idea about it, isn't it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, and that I saw her do exactly, that too. - -Mr. JENNER. Do exactly what? - -Mrs. PAINE. She didn't ask him why he had come. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. You were present when Marina put a question -to---- - -Mrs. PAINE. She did not ask him. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, she did not. - -Mr. McCLOY. She did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, I am sorry. - -Mrs. PAINE. Certainly not in my presence. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression as to how long he had been at -your home prior to your driving down the street and first seeing him? - -Mrs. PAINE. He usually arrived from his ride with Wesley Frazier -somewhere around a quarter of 5, so I guess it was a few minutes to 10 -minutes. - -Mr. JENNER. You arrived at your home in the neighborhood of 5:25 or -5:30. So it is your impression that he had been at your home from 10 to -15 minutes? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I say from a few minutes to 10 minutes. - -Mr. JENNER. A few minutes to 10 minutes. Did Marina say anything that -evening of his having a package with him when he came to your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; she didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. No discussion of that nature occurred? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. I am going to put a general question to you. Do you have -any recollection at all of Lee Oswald actually being in the garage of -your home that evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have said that I had the feeling from traffic that had -preceded it that he was in the bedroom when I saw he was no longer in -the rest of the house. When I saw the light was on, my distinct thought -was that he had left it on. I think that was founded upon an awareness -of what Marina had been doing and I suppose what he was doing. - -Mr. JENNER. You say doing. You mean an awareness---- - -Mrs. PAINE. In other words, it was common for both Marina and Lee to go -to the garage, but when I saw the light was on I was certain it was Lee -that had left it on. - -Mr. JENNER. Rather than Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. Rather than Marina. - -Mr. JENNER. Because of her habit of turning off lights? - -Mrs. PAINE. Not only that. I feel that I--memory of what she had been -doing during the time that I was also putting the children to bed. She -was involved with the children. - -Mr. JENNER. May we possibly do this. Did you see Marina in the garage -at anytime? - -Mrs. PAINE. That evening? - -Mr. JENNER. That evening. - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You did not see Lee Oswald in the garage at anytime that -evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. Did not see him in the garage; no. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I intend at this moment to proceed to the -next day. I wondered if members of the Commission have any further -questions of Mrs. Paine with respect to the afternoon or evening of -November 21? - -Mr. McCLOY. I don't have any. I think she has covered it all. I would -remind you that we have got to be leaving, Mr. Ford and I, and Senator -Cooper around noon. We would like to make as much progress as we can -before we go. - -Mr. JENNER. That is fine. I will have completed this phase. - -Senator COOPER. If you can get through the events of the 22d. - -Mr. JENNER. You retired along about 11:30? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. The evening of the 21st. Did you sleep through the night? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I woke at 7:30. - -Mr. JENNER. The children did not awaken you at anytime during the night -and nothing else awakened you? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that anything woke me; no. - -Mr. JENNER. Is your recollection sufficient that you were not awakened -during the night, that is your definite impression at the moment? - -Mrs. PAINE. I get up often in the night to change a diaper or cover a -child, but this is a matter of habit and I don't recall whether this -night contained such a getting up or not. - -Mr. JENNER. You sleep with your children, do you not? - -Mrs. PAINE. We are in the same bedroom. - -Mr. JENNER. You awakened when in the morning? - -Mrs. PAINE. At 7:30. - -Mr. JENNER. And when you awakened, immediately after you awakened what -did you do? - -Mrs. PAINE. When I awoke I felt the house was extremely quiet and the -thought occurred to me that Lee might have overslept. I wondered if he -had gotten up in time to get off around 7 o'clock because I knew he -had to go to meet Wesley Frazier to catch his ride. I looked about and -found a plastic coffee cup in the sink that had clearly been used and -judged he had had a cup of coffee and left. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see any other evidence of his having had breakfast? - -Mrs. PAINE. That was all he normally had for breakfast. - -Mr. JENNER. A plastic coffee cup with some remains in it of coffee? - -Mrs. PAINE. Instant coffee; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What was his habit with respect to his breakfast when he -made his visits? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was very normal for him to take coffee. - -Mr. JENNER. Was Marina up and about when you arose at 7:30? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; she was not. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection of the garage area? Was the door -to the garage, the entrance to the garage from the kitchen, closed or -open? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was closed. Would it help if I tried to narrate what -happened? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. Go ahead and narrate. - -Mrs. PAINE. I fixed breakfast for myself and my children, turned on -the television set to hear President Kennedy speak in Fort Worth, and -had breakfast there. I left the house about 9 with my little girl and -boy, because she had a dentist appointment, the little girl. I left the -television set on, feeling that Marina might not think to turn it on, -but I knew that she would be interested to see President Kennedy. - -I then was gone until nearly noon, 11:30 or so, both to the dentist -and on some errands following that, came back and there was coverage -of the fact of the motorcade in Dallas, but there was no television -cameras showing it, as you know, and Marina thanked me for having left -the television set on. She said she woke up in kind of a bad mood, but -she had seen the arrival of President Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy at the -airport in Dallas, and had been thrilled with this occasion and with -the greeting he had received, and it had lifted her spirits. - -Very shortly after this time, I had only just begun to prepare the -lunch, the announcement was made that the President had been shot, and -I translated this to Marina. She had not caught it from the television -statement. And I was crying as I did the translation. And then we sat -down and waited at the television set, no longer interested in the -preparing of lunch, and waited to hear further word. - -I got out some candles and lit them, and my little girl also lighted a -candle, and Marina said to me, "Is that a way of praying?", and I said -"Yes, it is, just my own way." And it was well over an hour before we -heard definitely that the President was dead. - -Mr. JENNER. How did that come to your attention? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was announced on the television. I think it was even -still in the intervening time. It was announced on the television that -the shot which was supposed to have killed the President was fired from -the Texas School Book Depository Building on Elm. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you communicate that to her? - -Mrs. PAINE. Marina at this time was in the yard hanging some clothes. I -recall going out to her and telling her this. - -Mr. JENNER. What did she say? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe she said anything. I then also---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. You say "I don't believe she said anything." Is -it your recollection? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall anything at all that she said. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you---- - -Mr. McCLOY. You told her that you had heard over the television? - -Mrs. PAINE. I heard that the shot had been made---- - -Mr. McCLOY. Coming from the Texas School Book Depository? - -Mrs. PAINE. Schoolbook depository, and I believe I also said I didn't -know there was a building on Elm. - -Senator COOPER. Why did you go out to tell her, this fact? - -Mrs. PAINE. I felt this was terribly close, somebody working in that -building had been there. I thought Lee might be able to say somewhat -about what happened, had been close to the event. This was my thought, -that we would know somebody who would be able to give or possibly give -a first-hand---- - -Senator COOPER. Did you have any thought at all that Lee Oswald might -have been the man who fired the shot? - -Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely none; no. - -Mr. JENNER. Why was that, Mrs. Paine? - -Mrs. PAINE. I had never thought of him as a violent man. He had never -said anything against President Kennedy, nor anything about President -Kennedy. I had no idea that he had a gun. There was nothing that I -had seen about him that indicated a man with that kind of grudge or -hostility. - -Mr. McCLOY. But you told this to Marina because of the association of -Lee Oswald with the schoolbook depository? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I then proceeded to hang some clothes. - -Mr. JENNER. She did not comment? - -Mrs. PAINE. She did not comment. - -Mr. JENNER. Made no comment? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection, that she made no comment. I then -helped hang the clothes. My recollection skips then to being again in -front of the television listening, and it was then that we heard that -the President was dead. We were both sitting on the sofa. - -Mr. JENNER. Marina had come in from the yard? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. From the hanging of the clothes? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall whether we came in together or whether she -preceded me into the house while I finished hanging up the clothes. But -I do recall then next sitting on the sofa when the announcement was -definitely made that the President was dead. And she said to me "What -a terrible thing this was for Mrs. Kennedy and for the two children." -I remember her words were, "Now the two children will have to grow -up without the father." It was very shortly after this we were still -sitting on the sofa. - -Mr. McCLOY. Just take a little time and compose yourself. - -Mrs. PAINE. My neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, came in, really I think to see -if we had heard, and---- - -Senator COOPER. Why don't you rest a few minutes? - -Mrs. PAINE. I can proceed. I recall my feeling of anger with her for -not being more upset, or she didn't appear to me to be, any more than -reporting a remarkable news item. Then it was shortly after that that -the bell rang and I went to the door and met some six officers from the -sheriff's office and police station. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this approximately 3:30 p.m.? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I think it was earlier, but I wouldn't be certain. I -know that we had put our children to bed. They were all taking a nap, -though I am not certain. Yes, my little girl was asleep also. I cried -after I had heard that the President was dead, and my little girl was -upset, too, always taking it from me more than from any understanding -of the situation. And she cried herself to sleep on the sofa, and I -moved her to her bed, and Christopher was already asleep in his crib. -June was in bed asleep. - -Mr. JENNER. Was Marina emotional at all? Did she cry? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. She said to me, "I feel very badly also, but we seem to -show that we are upset in different ways." She did not actually cry. - -Mr. McCLOY. May I go back a moment there, if I may. You said you -were sitting on the sofa--that she and you were sitting on the sofa. -While you were listening or looking at the television, was there any -announcement over the television of a suspicion being cast at Lee? - -Mrs. PAINE. It had just been announced that they had caught someone in -a theatre, but there was no name given. - -Mr. McCLOY. So up to this point there was no suggestion that Lee was -involved? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; not until the time the officers came to the door. - -Mr. McCLOY. Not until the officers came? - -Mrs. PAINE. Do you want to ask me about that? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. Now, the officers came to the door---- - -Mr. McCLOY. Pardon me. Were you asking a question? - -Mr. JENNER. I was waiting for you. - -Mr. McCLOY. Senator Cooper reminded me that there were comments, -apparently to the effect that somebody from that building had fired the -shots. Did you hear that when you were sitting on the sofa with Marina? -Did you hear that comment on the television? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; that was earlier. - -Mr. McCLOY. That was even earlier? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; before it was announced that he was dead. - -Senator COOPER. But when you were all sitting there---- - -Mrs. PAINE. It was at that point that I went out to the yard to tell -her. - -Senator COOPER. To tell her? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Senator COOPER. After that when you went back in and you all were -sitting on the sofa and she was there, were there any other comments -over the television that someone from this building had fired the shot -or that any suspects from---- - -Mrs. PAINE. You mean, someone associated with the building? - -Senator COOPER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. No; that was not said. - -Senator COOPER. There was nothing else said about that? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; just that the shot came from the building. - -Mr. McCLOY. Nothing else that you heard? - -Mrs. PAINE. Nothing else about it. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you do have a definite recollection that you -communicated to Marina out in the yard that the shot had come from the -Texas School Book Depository? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And what did she do when you communicated that to her, -apart from what she said? You told us what she said. What did she do? -Did she come in the house? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she enter the garage? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't know. I never saw her enter the garage, but my -recollection is that I was outside hanging clothes after I told her -this, but what I can't recall is whether she remained with me hanging -the clothes or whether she went in the house. - -Mr. JENNER. She might have gone into the house? - -Mrs. PAINE. She might have gone into the house. - -Mr. JENNER. But, in any event, you do not recall her entering the -garage following your advising her of the announcement that the shot -had come, or was thought to have come from the Texas School Book -Depository? - -Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall. - -Senator COOPER. When you went out to tell her, was she hanging clothes? - -Mrs. PAINE. She was hanging clothes. - -Senator COOPER. Then did you go help her, and then both of you were -hanging clothes? - -Mrs. PAINE. I then helped her. What I can't remember is whether she -remained and finished the job with me. I remember I finished, remained -until they were all hung. - -Senator COOPER. Do you remember at anytime after that whether or not -you were hanging clothes alone? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is what I am not certain about. I could well have been. - -Mr. JENNER. At anytime that afternoon, in any event, up to the time -that the policeman rang your doorbell, did you observe or were you -aware that Marina had entered the garage? - -Mrs. PAINE. I wasn't aware that she had entered, if she did. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it from your testimony it is possible that Marina, -after you advised her that the shot was thought to have come from this -Texas School Book Depository, that she might have been inside your home -while you were still out in the yard? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And, of course, if that is so, then she could have entered -the garage while she was inside your home, and you were out in the yard -hanging clothes? - -Mrs. PAINE. And I would not have seen her; that is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, this clothes-hanging occurred in the rear, the yard -portion in the rear of your home; is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it possible--is there a window in the garage opening on -the rear of your home on to that yard area, or is the wall blank? - -Mrs. PAINE. The window one can look into from the area where one hangs -clothes goes to the dining area. From where I stood, I could not have -seen the door entering the garage, which would be just beyond---- - -Mr. JENNER. You are talking about the inside door? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. First I would like to know this---- - -Mrs. PAINE. The answer to your question is clear if you see the plan -of the interior of the house. No part of the garage shows, no wall or -window or any part of the garage shows from the back---- - -Mr. JENNER. There is no opening from the rear of the garage, is there? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. So you can't see into the garage, at least from---- - -Mrs. PAINE. From the back of my house you can't; no. - -Mr. JENNER. There are windows opening from your kitchen into the back -part, into the yard, are there not? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And being in the yard, could you see when somebody passed -across that window, let us say, headed for the garage area? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. Heading for the garage area, you would not pass across -that window. - -Mr. JENNER. You would not. In any event, you had no consciousness at -anytime that day or afternoon of Marina having entered the garage up to -the time the police came? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that true of the time in the morning that you have been -describing? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. At anytime from 7:30 in the morning, from the time you -awakened until the time the police came, you have no consciousness that -Marina was in the garage? - -Mrs. PAINE. No consciousness of that. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you enter the garage during this period of time? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have no specific recollection of having done so. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have given us Marina's total exclamation or -response to your advising her that the shot had come from the Texas -School Book Depository? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. You have recounted that your next-door neighbor, Mrs. -Robert--or is it Roberts? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Came over. Was Marina present---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. When she arrived at your home? Were you girls in the living -room? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you sit down and talk? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. She just came to the door to see if we had heard the -news. - -Mr. JENNER. She was there just a bit of the time? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. She did not come, actually, into the house. - -Mr. JENNER. She did not. She stood in the doorway? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And did she speak to you and to Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, she spoke in English, and I doubt she said much more -than, "Have you heard?". - -Mr. JENNER. Did Marina say anything to you for translation of Mrs. -Reynolds? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. Roberts. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Roberts; while Mrs. Roberts was there? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Learning that you girls were aware of the events up to that -moment, she left and, as far as you know, returned to her home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, that morning--if I may, Mr. Chairman, because of the -entry of the police, that is a good cutoff point, I would like to go -back to the morning for the moment, or the evening before. Mrs. Paine, -did you then have what might be called some curtain rods in your garage? - -Mrs. PAINE. I believe there were. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they were stored in the garage, wrapped in loose brown -paper. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it the brown paper of the nature and character you -described yesterday that you get at the market and have in a roll? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you wrapped that package yourself? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, curtain rods can be of various types. One type of -curtain rod, as I remember, is a solid brass rod. Others are hollow. -Some are shaped. Would you describe these curtain rods, please? - -Mrs. PAINE. They were a light weight. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me; do you still have them? - -Mrs. PAINE. I still have them. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. PAINE. Metal rods that you slip the curtain over, not with a ring -but just with the cloth itself, and they are expansion rods. - -Mr. JENNER. Are they flat on one side? - -Mrs. PAINE. They are flat on one side; about an inch wide and about a -quarter of an inch thick. - -Mr. JENNER. And assume we are holding the rod horizontally, do the -edges of the rod slip over? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Senator COOPER. Did you wrap these rods in the paper? Had you wrapped -them? - -Mrs. PAINE. Sometime previously I had. - -Senator COOPER. How long before? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, possibly a year. - -Senator COOPER. What? - -Mrs. PAINE. Possibly a year. - -Senator COOPER. As far as you know, they had never been changed? - -Mrs. PAINE. Moved about, but not changed. - -Senator COOPER. Can you just describe the length? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Senator COOPER. The length of the rods, at the time you wrapped them. - -Mrs. PAINE. They would be 36 inches when pushed together. - -Senator COOPER. What? - -Mrs. PAINE. They would be about maybe 36 inches when pushed together. - -Senator COOPER. You remember wrapping them. Do you remember what the -size, the length of the rods were at the time you wrapped them? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Senator COOPER. How long? - -Mrs. PAINE. Didn't I answer about 36 inches? - -Mr. JENNER. In other words, you pushed them together so that then, they -were then their minimum length, unexpanded? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. They were not extended, and in that condition they were 36 -inches long? - -Mrs. PAINE. Something like that. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, how many of them were there? - -Mrs. PAINE. Two. - -Mr. JENNER. These were lightweight metal? - -Mrs. PAINE. Very. Now, there was another item that was both heavier and -longer. - -Mr. JENNER. In that same package? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't think so. In another similar package wrapped -up just to keep the dust off were two Venetian blinds. I guess they -were not longer, more like 36 inches also, that had come from the two -windows in my bedroom. I took them down to change, and put up pull -blinds in their place. - -Mr. JENNER. And had you wrapped them? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. How many were there? - -Mrs. PAINE. Two. - -Mr. JENNER. And what was their length? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think around 36 inches. The width of these windows in the -back bedroom. - -Mr. JENNER. Let us return to the curtain rods first. Do you still have -those curtain rods? - -Mrs. PAINE. I believe so. - -Mr. JENNER. You believe so, or you know; which? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think Michael went to look after the assassination, -whether these were still in the garage. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have a conversation with Michael as to whether he -did or didn't look? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Why was he looking to see if the curtain rod package was -there? - -Mrs. PAINE. He was particularly interested in the wrapping, was the -wrapping still there, the brown paper. - -Mr. JENNER. When did this take place? - -Mrs. PAINE. After the assassination, perhaps a week or so later, -perhaps when one of the FBI people were out; I don't really recall. - -Mr. JENNER. And was the package with the curtain rods found on that -occasion? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is my recollection it was. - -Mr. JENNER. What about the Venetian blind package? - -Mrs. PAINE. Still there, still wrapped. - -Mr. JENNER. You are fully conscious of the fact that that package is -still there? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And to the best of your knowledge, information, and belief -the other package, likewise, is there? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Senator COOPER. Let me ask a question there. After the assassination, -at anytime did you go into the garage and look to see if both of these -packages were there? - -Mrs. PAINE. A week and a half, or a week later. - -Senator COOPER. At any time? - -Mrs. PAINE. Did I, personally? - -Senator COOPER. Have you seen these packages since the assassination? - -Mrs. PAINE. It seems to me I recall seeing a package. - -Senator COOPER. What? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall opening it up and looking in carefully. I -seem to recall seeing the package. - -Senator COOPER. Both of them? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Senator COOPER. Or just one? - -Mrs. PAINE. Both. - -Senator COOPER. Did you feel them to see if the rods were in there? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. I think Michael did, but I am not certain. - -Senator COOPER. But you never did, yourself? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was not my most pressing---- - -Senator COOPER. What? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was not the most pressing thing I had to do at that time. - -Senator COOPER. I know that. But you must have read after the -assassination the story about Lee Oswald saying, he told Mr. Frazier, I -think, that he was carrying some curtain rods in the car? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Senator COOPER. Do you remember reading that? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I remember reading that. - -Senator COOPER. Didn't that lead you--Did it lead you then to go in and -see if the curtain rods were there? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was all I could do at that point to answer my door, -answer my telephone, and take care of my children. - -Senator COOPER. I understand you had many things to do. - -Mrs. PAINE. So I did not. - -Senator COOPER. You never did do it? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am not certain whether I specifically went in and checked -on that. I recall a conversation with Michael about it and, to the best -of my recollection, things looked as I expected to find them looking -out there. This package with brown paper was still there. - -Mr. JENNER. By any chance, does that package appear in the photograph -that you have identified of the interior of your garage? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think it is this that is on a shelf almost to the ceiling. - -Mr. JENNER. May I get over here, Mr. Chairman? - -Mrs. PAINE. Along the west edge of the garage, up here. - -Mr. JENNER. In view of this, I think it is of some importance that you -mark on Commission Exhibit 429 what appears to you to be the package in -which the curtain rods were. - -Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. Now the witness has by an arrow indicated a shelf very -close to the ceiling in the rear of the garage, and an arrow pointing -to what appears to be a long package on that shelf, underneath which -she has written "Wrapping paper around venetian blinds"---- - -Mrs. PAINE. "And thin." - -Mr. JENNER. What is the next word? - -Mrs. PAINE. "Curtain rods." - -Mr. JENNER. There were two packages, Mrs. Paine, one with the rods and -one with the Venetian blinds? - -Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall. The rods were so thin they hardly warranted -a package of their own, but that is rationalization, as you call it. - -Mr. JENNER. You do have a recollection that those rods were a very -lightweight metal? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. They were not round. - -Mr. JENNER. They were flat and slender? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. They were not at all heavy? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. They were curved? Were they curved in any respect? - -Mrs. PAINE. They curved at the ends to attach to the bracket that held -them up on the wall. - -Mr. JENNER. May I use the chalk on the board, Mr. Chairman. Perhaps it -might be better for you, Mrs. Paine, so I don't influence you. Would -you draw a picture of the rods? - -Mrs. PAINE. You are looking down from the top. It attaches here, well, -over a loop thing on the wall. Looking from the inside, it curves over -a slight bit, and then this is recessed. - -Mr. JENNER. I am going to have to have you do that over on a sheet of -paper. Will you remain standing for the moment. We will give it an -exhibit number. But I would like to have you proceed there. What did -you say this was, in the lower diagram? - -Mrs. PAINE. You are looking down. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, where was the break? - -Mrs. PAINE. The break? - -Mr. JENNER. You said they were extension. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. When they are up on the window, it would be -like that. - -Mr. JENNER. You have drawn a double line to indicate what would be seen -if you were looking down into the U-shape of the rod? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. The double line indicates what on either side? - -Mrs. PAINE. That the lightweight metal, white, turned over, bent -around, something less than a quarter of an inch on each side. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, would you be good enough to make the same drawing. -We will mark that sheet as Commission Exhibit No. 449 upon which the -witness is now drawing the curtain rod. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 449 was marked for identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. While you are doing that, Mrs. Paine, would you be good -enough when you return to Irving, Tex., to see if those rods are at -hand, and some of our men are going to be in Irving next week. We might -come out and take a look at them, and perhaps you might surrender them -to us. - -Mrs. PAINE. You are perfectly welcome to them. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you in that connection, Mrs. Paine, do not open the -package until we arrive? - -Mrs. PAINE. I won't even look, then. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, would you mark "A" in the upper elevation -and "B" in the lower elevation. The elevation in the drawing you have -indicated as "A" is a depiction of what? - -Mrs. PAINE. The curtain rod, as you might look at it from the top when -it is hanging in its position, when it is placed in position on the -window. - -Mr. JENNER. And "B"? - -Mrs. PAINE. "B" is as it might appear if you could look at it from -outside the house; the window. - -Mr. JENNER. While the rod was in place? - -Mrs. PAINE. While the rod was in place. - -Mr. JENNER. You have written to the left-hand side "Place at which it -attaches to wall fixture," indicating the butt end of the curved side -of the rod? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And the two oblongs, each of which you have put at the ends -of depiction "B," represent the upturned ends of the fixtures at each -end? - -Mrs. PAINE. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you put a little line as to where the break was in -the rod. - -I offer in evidence, Mr. Chairman, as Commission Exhibit No. 449 -the drawing that the witness has just made, and about which she has -testified. - -Senator COOPER. It will be admitted as part of the evidence. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 449 was received in evidence.) - -Mr. JENNER. Had there been any conversation between you and Lee Oswald, -or between you and Marina, or any conversation taking place in your -presence prior to this occasion, in which the subject of curtain rods -was mentioned? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; there was no such conversation. - -Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of curtain rods--had that ever been -mentioned during all of these weekends that Lee Oswald had come to your -home, commencing, I think you said, with his first return on October 4, -1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. It had not been mentioned. - -Mr. JENNER. Never by anybody? - -Mrs. PAINE. By anybody. - -Mr. JENNER. Had the subject of curtain rods been mentioned even -inadvertently, let us say, by some neighbor talking about the subject, -as to whether you had some curtain rods you weren't using? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. That might be loaned? I think you had testified that the -curtain rods, when unextended, were 36 inches long, approximately? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is a guess. I would say, thinking further about it, it -must be shorter than that. One went over a window that I am pretty sure -was 30 inches wide, and one went over a window that was 42 inches wide, -so it had to extend between these. They were identical, and had served -at these different windows. - -Mr. JENNER. The rods were identical in length when unextended? - -Mrs. PAINE. Or when fully extended; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What? - -Mrs. PAINE. Or when fully extended. - -Mr. JENNER. Or when fully extended; yes. They could be extended to as -great as 42 inches? - -Mrs. PAINE. At least that. I am just saying what windows they were used -for. - -Mr. JENNER. If the rods are still available, we will be able to obtain -them? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And we will know exactly their length, extended and -unextended. Now, as you think further about it, the rods when not -extended, that is, when pushed together, might be but 30 inches long? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Because you recall that you have a 30-inch-wide window. - -Mrs. PAINE. I believe it is more that width than 36. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you hold up your hands to indicate what you think the -width or the length of the rods is when not extended? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I don't recall. Maybe like this. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you measure that, Mr. Liebeler, please? - -Mr. LIEBELER. About 28 inches. - -Mr. JENNER. I intend to leave the subject of the curtain rods, -gentlemen, if you have any questions. - -Mr. McCLOY. May I ask a question. Did the FBI question you about the -curtain rods any, or the Dallas police officials? - -Mrs. PAINE. Not the Dallas police. - -Mr. McCLOY. Not the Dallas police? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. It is possible the FBI did. I don't recall such -question. - -Mr. McCLOY. They didn't take any rods from the garage that you are -aware of? - -Mrs. PAINE. You are aware what the police took. I never did know -exactly what they took. I have never heard any mention of the rods -having left. - -Mr. McCLOY. You are not conscious of the Dallas police ever talking to -you about curtain rods? - -Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely no. - -Mr. McCLOY. But possibly some member of the FBI did? - -Mrs. PAINE. Possibly. I can't recall. - -Mr. McCLOY. You can't recall? - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever mention to the FBI anything, or anybody else -up until recently, the existence of the curtain rods about which you -have now testified? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have already said Michael and I discussed it. - -Mr. JENNER. When? - -Mrs. PAINE. A week or two after the assassination would be my guess. - -Mr. JENNER. And did you discuss those particular curtain rods about -which you have now testified? - -Mrs. PAINE. We were particularly interested in seeing if the wrapping -paper that we used to wrap these things was there, and it was. I recall -that. - -Representative FORD. Did Lee Oswald know where you kept this roll of -wrapping paper? - -Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my knowledge, he did not know where I kept -it. I had never wrapped something when he was around. Neither he nor -Marina had ever asked to use this paper or the string that I had. - -Representative FORD. Where did you keep it? I don't recall precisely. - -Mrs. PAINE. I can be very clear. There is a picture here of a large -secretary desk on Commission Exhibit No. 435. It is in the bottom -drawer, you see, in that desk. This is not the secretary desk upon -which---- - -Mr. JENNER. The note was found? - -Mrs. PAINE. The note was found. - -Representative FORD. You kept it in the lower drawer? - -Mrs. PAINE. Along with some gum tape and string. - -Representative FORD. And this is the section shown on Commission -Exhibit 435? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, you caught the measurement by Mr. Liebeler, -28 inches. Mrs. Paine, what is your best recollection as to how many -curtain rods there were? - -Mrs. PAINE. Two, I am certain. - -Mr. JENNER. Just two? And you wrapped the package yourself, did you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. When you and Michael undertook your discussion about -curtain rods, did you or did he open up this package? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it your present best recollection that as far as you -know, the package, as far as wrapping is concerned, is in the same -condition now as when you wrapped it initially? - -Mrs. PAINE. Certainly very similar. - -Senator COOPER. What was the answer? - -Mrs. PAINE. Certainly very similar. I don't recall making any change. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there a possibility that the package was unwrapped at -anytime? - -Mrs. PAINE. In connection with this inquiry of Michael's; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You think he might have but you don't know. - -Mrs. PAINE. Or I might have. I don't recall. I recall that it wasn't -something that interested me as much as the other things I had to get -done. - -Mr. JENNER. But the rods about which you have testified as far as you -know are on the shelf in your garage at your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether when the FBI discussed this subject -with you, if you can recall that, that you advised the FBI of these -particular curtain rods? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am not perfectly certain that they discussed it with me. - -Mr. JENNER. You just have no recollection of any interview with the FBI -on this particular subject? - -Mrs. PAINE. It seems to me they brought it up, but I don't recall the -content nor whether they went out. I certainly think I would remember -if I had gone out to the garage with an FBI representative. - -Mr. JENNER. But you do not? - -Mrs. PAINE. But I do not remember such an occasion. - -Mr. JENNER. Unless the members of the Commission have any further -questions with respect to the curtain rods, I will return to the -afternoon. - -Senator COOPER. I want to ask just two questions. Before the -assassination, did you know where the package with the curtain rods in -it was situated within the garage? - -Mrs. PAINE. I gave it no attention but yes, it is my impression that I -did go out to see if things were where I expected to find them. They -were wrapped in brown paper, the curtain rods and venetian blinds. And -found things there. I don't recall that I looked into the package. - -Mr. JENNER. You did find the package? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the size of the package in length and width if you -can remember at the time you wrapped it? - -Mrs. PAINE. I suppose about like this, not closed but just wrapping -paper folded over. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you hold your hands there please. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But by no means a neat package, just enough to keep -the dust off. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Thirty-two and a half inches. - -Senator COOPER. What was the width of the package? - -Mrs. PAINE. Like so. - -Senator COOPER. That you wrapped? - -Mrs. PAINE. Now I am not certain. I am really thinking now of the -package with the venetian blind. I don't recall exactly the package -with the rods, whether they were included in this other or whether they -warranted a package of their own. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The witness indicated a width of approximately 7-1/2 -inches. - -Senator COOPER. I will ask one other question. The ends of the rod -which are at right angles to the long surface, how long? What is their -approximate size? - -Mrs. PAINE. Two and a half inches to three inches. - -Senator COOPER. What? - -Mrs. PAINE. Two and a half to three inches. - -Senator COOPER. All right, go ahead. - -Mr. JENNER. Anyone entering your home from the outside walking up your -driveway and looking in the windows, would they see anybody sitting on -the sofa you have described? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you sit on the sofa to look at your television set? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you take the ground floor plan that is before you and -indicate---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Do you want me to draw in the sofa and the television set? - -Mr. JENNER. No; I just want you to put an "X" as to where the sofa is, -and put a double "X" as to where the television set is. Now the opening -that appears to the left of the double "X," is that a window or a door? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is the front door. - -Mr. JENNER. And is there any window in that wall, in the living room -wall. - -Mrs. PAINE. Practically the rest of the wall is window. - -Mr. JENNER. And on this drawing it appears as a solid wall? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. The fact is that is a picture window? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. It is just your printing filled in. It is -exactly like this. There it is. - -Mr. JENNER. Turning to Commission Exhibit 431, the picture window is -shown there, is it not? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now it would be possible, would it not, if someone walked -along the sidewalk and was intent on peering in to see if anyone is -there, to see somebody sitting at the sofa looking at the television -set? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. McCLOY. I am very anxious to hear your story before we leave. - -Senator COOPER. I can stay here while the details are filled in. - -Mr. JENNER. The police arrived and what occurred. - -Mrs. PAINE. I went to the door. They announced themselves as from both -the sheriff's office and the Dallas Police Office, showed me at least -one package or two. I was very surprised. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything? - -Mrs. PAINE. I said nothing. I think I just dropped my jaw. And the man -in front said by way of explanation "We have Lee Oswald in custody. He -is charged with shooting an officer." This is the first I had any idea -that Lee might be in trouble with the police or in any way involved -in the day's events. I asked them to come in. They said they wanted to -search the house. I asked if they had a warrant. They said they didn't. -They said they could get the sheriff out here right away with one if I -insisted. And I said no, that was all right, they could be my guests. - -They then did search the house. I directed them to the fact that most -of the Oswald's things were in storage in my garage and showed where -the garage was, and to the room where Marina and the baby had stayed -where they would find the other things which belonged to the Oswalds. -Marina and I went with two or three of these police officers to the -garage. - -Mr. JENNER. How many police officers were there? - -Mrs. PAINE. There were six altogether, and they were busy in various -parts of the house. The officer asked me in the garage did Lee Oswald -have any weapons or guns. I said no, and translated the question to -Marina, and she said yes; that she had seen a portion of it--had looked -into--she indicated the blanket roll on the floor. - -Mr. JENNER. Was the blanket roll on the floor at that time? - -Mrs. PAINE. She indicated the blanket roll on the floor very close -to where I was standing. As she told me about it I stepped onto the -blanket roll. - -Mr. JENNER. This might be helpful. You had shaped that up yesterday and -I will just put it on the floor. - -Mrs. PAINE. And she indicated to me that she had peered into this roll -and saw a portion of what she took to be a gun she knew her husband to -have, a rifle. And I then translated this to the officers that she knew -that her husband had a gun that he had stored in here. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you standing on the blanket when you advised---- - -Mrs. PAINE. When I translated. I then stepped off of it and the officer -picked it up in the middle and it bent so. - -Mr. JENNER. It hung limp just as it now hangs limp in your hand? - -Mrs. PAINE. And at this moment I felt this man was in very deep trouble -and may have done---- - -Mr. McCLOY. Were the strings still on it? - -Mrs. PAINE. The strings were still on it. It looked exactly as it had -at previous times I had seen it. It was at this point I say I made the -connection with the assassination, thinking that possibly, knowing -already that the shot had been made from the School Book Depository, -and that this was a rifle that was missing, I wondered if he would not -also be charged before the day was out with the assassination. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't say that. - -Mr. JENNER. When the officer picked up the blanket package, did you -hear any crinkling as though there was paper inside? - -Mrs. PAINE. No crinkling. - -Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever. When you stepped on the package, did you -have a feeling through your feet that there was something inside the -package in the way of paper. - -Mrs. PAINE. Not anything in the way of paper. - -Mr. JENNER. Or wrapping. - -Mrs. PAINE. Or anything that crinkled; no. I did think it was hard but -that was my cement floor. - -Mr. JENNER. But definitely you had no sensation of any paper inside? - -Mrs. PAINE. No such sensation. - -Mr. JENNER. Of the nature or character of the wrapping paper you -identified yesterday. - -Mrs. PAINE. No; and when he picked it up I would think such paper would -rattle, but there was no such sound. Marina said nothing at this time. -She was very white, and of course I judged---- - -Mr. JENNER. Did she blanch? - -Mrs. PAINE. She is not a person to immediately show her feelings -necessarily. She was white. I wouldn't say that it was a sudden thing. -I can't be certain that it was sudden at that point. - -Representative FORD. How close was she standing to it. - -Mrs. PAINE. From here to there, about 6 feet. - -Mr. JENNER. Proceed. - -Mrs. PAINE. The officers then said they would like me and Marina to go -down to the police station, and I said well, I would seek to try to -get a baby-sitter to come to stay with the children so that we might -accompany them. About this time, we then left the garage as I recall, -because then Michael Paine arrived at the front door. I was in the -living room when he came. And I said "Did you know to come" and he said -that he had heard Oswald's name mentioned on the radio, and had come -over directly, for which I may say I was very glad. - -Mr. JENNER. How far away from your home--where did he live? - -Mrs. PAINE. It would take about a half hour drive--he was working--from -where he was working to come, 20 minutes perhaps. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have the address at the tip of your tongue? - -Mrs. PAINE. Where he works; no. I don't know the address. I know how to -get to it. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know where he lived? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the address? - -Mrs. PAINE. He lived at the Villa Fontaine Apartments, apartment 217, -2377 Dalworth. - -Mr. JENNER. D-A-L-W-O-R-T-H? - -Mrs. PAINE. D-A-L-W-O-R-T-H, in Grand Prairie, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. Where is Grand Prairie, Tex. - -Mrs. PAINE. Grand Prairie is suburban to Dallas, between Dallas and -Fort Worth, nearer to Dallas, and it was a location very near to where -he worked. - -Mr. JENNER. What distance in miles from your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. You measure distance in minutes in Texas; driving time. I -don't know; 20 minutes to where he lived. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, proceed. - -Mrs. PAINE. The police officers then asked if Michael would also -accompany us to the police station and he said he would. I changed -clothes to a suit from slacks, and went to the house of my babysitter. -She has no telephone. I need to walk to her. - -Mr. JENNER. Where was Marina in the meantime? - -Mrs. PAINE. Marina remained in the house with the children. Lynn by -this time had awakened as I recall. Christopher was still sleeping and -I think June was also. And I said I would walk over to my neighbors to -ask if--there was something that intervened I just remembered. I first -went and asked my immediate neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, if she could keep -the children for a short time in the afternoon, but she was just on -her way to go somewhere. She couldn't. So then I went to the home of -the person I normally have for a baby-sitter. It was now after school -or this babysitter would not have been there, which brings us to 3:30 -perhaps. And I asked the mother if the young girl, teenage girl, could -come and stay at the house. I was accompanied to the house by one of -the officers. As we left the house I said "Oh, you don't have to go -with me." Oh, he said, he'd be glad to. And then it occurred to me -he had been assigned to go with me, and I said "come along." It was -the first I have ever experienced being in the company of people who -suspected me of anything, and of course that is their business. - -We did arrange then for the girls to come back, one or two, I forget -whether it was two of the daughters or one that came then to my house -to stay with the children. As I came back, I noticed the officers -carrying a number of things from the house, and I looked into the back -of one of the cars. It was across the street from my house, and saw -he had three cases of 78 records of mine, and I said, "You don't need -those and I want to use them on Thanksgiving weekend. I have promised -to lead a folk dance conference on the weekend. I will need those -records which are all folk dance records and I doubt that you might get -them back at that time." - -And I said, "that is a 16 mm projector. You don't want that. It is -mine." - -And he took me by the arm and he said, "We'd better get down to the -station. We have wasted too much time as it is." And I said, "I want a -list of what you are taking, please." Or perhaps that was before. As -much answer as I ever got was "We'd better get to the station." Then -I evidently had made them nervous because when we got back from this -car to the house, Marina wanted to change from slacks as I had already -done to a dress. They would not permit her to do that. I said "She -has a right to, she is a woman, to dress as she wishes before going -down." And I directed her to the bathroom to change. The officer opened -the bathroom door and said no, she had no time to change. I was still -making arrangements with the babysitters, arranging for our leaving the -children there, and one of the officers made a statement to the effect -of "we'd better get this straight in a hurry Mrs. Paine or we'll just -take the children down and leave them with juvenile while we talk to -you." - -And I said "Lynn, you may come too" in reply to this. I don't like -being threatened. And then Christopher was still sleeping so I left him -in the house and Lynn, my daughter, and Marina took her daughter and -her baby with her to the police station, so we were quite a group going -into town in the car. Michael was in one car, Marina and I and all the -children were in another with three police officers as I recall. One -of them spoke some Czech, tried to understand what was being said. The -one in the front seat turned to me and said "Are you a Communist," -and I said, "No, I am not, and I don't even feel the need of a Fifth -Amendment." And he was satisfied with that. We went on then to the -police station, and waited until such time as they could interview us. -They interviewed Michael at one point separately. - -Mr. JENNER. Separately? - -Mrs. PAINE. And they interviewed Marina while I was present. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you interpret for her? - -Mrs. PAINE. They had an interpreter there, a Mr. Ilya Mamantov whom I -was very glad to see. He is the son-in-law of a woman who has tutored -me in Dallas, so I had met him before. I was very glad to have someone -whose skill in Russian was greater than mine, and Marina had said even -in the car going down to the station, "your Russian has suddenly become -no good at all." She had asked me again in the car, "isn't it true that -the penalty for shooting someone in Texas is the electric chair" and I -said "yes, that is true." - -Then at the police station---- - -Representative FORD. May I ask this. Was there any interrogation other -than what you have mentioned by police officers in the car? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; none that I recall. - -Representative FORD. You and Marina talked back and forth freely or to -a limited degree? - -Mrs. PAINE. We talked back and forth freely and then she wanted me to -translate to the officer, to the one who understood some Czech, to help -him understand. Then in the room where we were asked questions, what -I particularly recall was they wanted Marina to say what she had said -in the garage to the effect that she had seen a rifle in that wrapped -blanket, and she made the statement again and it was made up into an -affidavit for her to sign with Mr. Mamantov making very clear the -translation of each sentence, each word, and I recall her statement was -to the effect that she had looked in and seen a portion of the gun, of -something which she took to be the gun she knew her husband had; that -she had not opened the package, but had just looked into it. - -They then brought in---- - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, a slight interruption. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was the occasion when Mrs. Oswald, Marina, made the remark -of having seen a weapon inside the blanket, was that the first notice -that you had of any kind or character that there was a weapon in your -garage? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is absolutely the first. Indeed it was contrary to -my expectation as I said. When the officer asked me I answered his -question before I even translated it, answered it in the negative, and -then translated it and found that indeed there had been a gun there. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead. - -Mrs. PAINE. They then showed a gun, a rifle to Marina, and asked her if -she could identify the gun as being her husband's. - -She said her husband had a dark gun, dark in color, that she wasn't -absolutely certain that this was the gun. She couldn't definitely -recall the sight on the top of it. - -Mr. JENNER. The telescope sight? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Then I also was asked to make an affidavit which I -signed, to the effect that I had heard her say in the garage that she -had looked into this package and seen what she took to be a rifle she -knew her husband had. It was after they had finished with this session -that I went back in the same room where Michael was, and Mrs. Oswald, -senior, came in, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you met her at anytime up to that moment? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. I had never met her before. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you ever talked with her at anytime up to that moment? - -Mrs. PAINE. I had never talked with her. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you advised in advance of anything that had been said -that she was to come? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. She said she had heard on her car radio, on her way to -work in the afternoon. - -Mr. JENNER. What time was this about? - -Mrs. PAINE. She heard it? - -Mr. JENNER. No; that she came? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was, it was certainly supper time. We had eaten no lunch. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. PAINE. And she said she heard on her car radio that Lee Oswald -had been in custody in Dallas and had come over. Previously during -October and November Marina had told me she regretted that Lee didn't -wish to keep up contact with his mother because she thought it was only -proper to tell the mother of the coming grandchild, and then she wanted -to announce the birth when the baby had come but she said Lee didn't -try to keep her address, and Marina didn't know how to contact her or -didn't want to do so around her husband certainly. There was a warm -greeting in the police station. - -Mr. JENNER. Between whom? - -Mrs. PAINE. Between Marguerite Oswald and Marina Oswald and I recall -both wept and Mrs. Marguerite Oswald exclaimed over the new baby, and -then held the baby. I then also met Robert Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. When did he come with relation to when Marguerite Oswald -entered? - -Mrs. PAINE. It seemed to me later. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you met Robert Oswald at anytime up to that moment? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I had not. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion that had taken place during the -course of the day up to that moment indicating to you that Robert -Oswald might or would arrive on the scene? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing that day about Robert at all. - -Mr. JENNER. When he entered was there an indication to you at all that -none of the people, in addition to yourself, was aware that he was -about to--that they had any advance advice that he was going to be -present? - -Mrs. PAINE. There was no indication of any advance advice to any of the -people. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any indication to the contrary? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't think anyone was really surprised that he had come. - -Mr. JENNER. There was this lack of prior notice? - -Mrs. PAINE. Lack of prior notice. We then talked about where to go. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, does the "we" include your husband all the time? - -Mrs. PAINE. The "we" then was a group at this point of my husband, -Marguerite Oswald, Marina Oswald, Robert Oswald, and myself, three -children. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your husband know Robert Oswald prior to this time? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Were they introduced to each other on this occasion? - -Mrs. PAINE. They were in the same room and they might have been. It was -agreed that Robert was to stay in a hotel. Marguerite Oswald asked if -she could come out and stay with Marina at my home, and it was agreed. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it agreed that Marina would stay at your house that -night? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; certainly all her baby things were there. So, we went -back there. We were taken back by police officers. - -Mr. JENNER. Everybody assumed she would return back to your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion that would indicate any reluctance -on the part of anybody that she return to your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. None. - -Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever by anybody? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct, none whatsoever by anybody. - -The police officers brought us back to my home. It was by this time -dark, and I think it was about 9 o'clock in the evening. I asked -Michael to go out and buy hamburgers at a drive-in so we wouldn't have -to cook, and we ate these as best we could, and began to prepare to -retire. We talked. I have a few specific recollections of that period -that I will put in here. - -Just close to the time of retiring Marina told me that just the night -before Lee had said to her he hoped they could get an apartment -together again soon. As she said this, I felt she was hurt and -confused, wondering how he could have said such a thing which indicated -wanting to be together with her when he must have already been planning -something that would inevitably cause separation. I asked her did she -think that Lee had killed the President and she said, "I don't know." -And I felt that this was not something to talk about really anyway. But -my curiosity overcame my politeness. - -Now, back a little bit to the time in the living room, Mrs. Oswald and -Michael and Marina and I were all there, and Mrs. Oswald, I recall, -said, I mean of course Mrs. Marguerite Oswald---- - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. That if they were prominent people there would be three of -the lawyers down in the city jail now trying to defend her son, and -coming to his aid. - -She felt that since they were just small people that there -wouldn't--they wouldn't get the proper attention or care, and I tried -to say this was not a small case. That most careful attention would be -given it, but she didn't feel that way. - -Mr. JENNER. You made no impression on her? - -Mrs. PAINE. I made no impression on her. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it---- - -Mrs. PAINE. She made an impression on me. - -Mr. JENNER. I think we would prefer if you would call her Marguerite. -It would avoid confusion. - -Mrs. PAINE. All right. Somewhere in that evening before we retired, and -after we had eaten, the doorbell rang and two men from Life Magazine -appeared. I was---- - -Mr. JENNER. Had you had any advance notice? - -Mrs. PAINE. We had had no advance notice. - -Mr. JENNER. Nobody did? - -Mrs. PAINE. Nobody did. - -Mr. JENNER. You in particular and none of the others in the room? - -Mrs. PAINE. None of the others. - -Mr. JENNER. That was your impression? - -Mrs. PAINE. I would be quite certain that none of the others and -myself---- - -Mr. JENNER. At least that was your impression at the moment? - -Mrs. PAINE. That they had no prior information that these people -might come. I will say I was not surprised that anyone of the press -found his way to our door at that point. If anything, I was surprised -there weren't more. Life Magazine was the only company or group to -appear that evening. I permitted them to come in, and I felt that Mrs. -Marguerite Oswald was interested in the possibility of their buying the -story or paying for what information she and Marina might give them. - -Mr. JENNER. Had that occurred to you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Had that occurred to me? No. But then, too, I wasn't -thinking about pay for lawyers but she made that connection verbally in -my presence. - -Mr. JENNER. What connection? - -Mrs. PAINE. Between the need for money. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. The availability of Life Magazine and the need to pay for a -lawyer. - -Mr. JENNER. And she was the one who raised that subject? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she raised it. - -Mr. JENNER. For commercialization of the story? - -Mrs. PAINE. I recall now she raised it definitely enough that Mr. Tommy -Thompson of Life called, I believe still that evening, to see if he -could offer anything or what he might be empowered to offer. - -Mr. JENNER. That was all instigated by her? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; very much so. I noticed that the other man, whose -name I forget, had a camera and I was amazed, and I also saw he took a -picture and I was amazed, he tried with a dim light in the room. - -Mr. JENNER. When you say he took a picture, you don't mean he took a -picture from your living room? - -Mrs. PAINE. He took a picture in my living room. He photographed. I saw -him wind his roll. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you. - -Mrs. PAINE. I made the mistake I now think of turning on another light -simply as an act of hostess, it was dim in the living room but I hadn't -realized until later that I was making it possible for him to take a -picture. - -I didn't know what was best for me to do as hostess. It seemed to me -that Mrs. Oswald, Sr., Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, was both interested in -encouraging the Life Magazine representatives and still didn't really -want her picture taken, and I had no personal objection to their being -there. But I considered the Oswalds my guests and I didn't want to have -the Life Magazine people there if they didn't want them. But they left -fairly promptly, saying that they would come back in the morning. - -Mr. JENNER. Did they say anything about your talking or not talking to -any other news media representatives until they had talked with you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Not to me. - -Mr. JENNER. Nothing of that implied? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. It was after this that the conversation I have already -related with Marina took place, and we finished our preparations for -bed. She said to me she didn't think she would sleep fairly soon and -asked if she could borrow my hair dryer, she would stay up and take a -shower, which she often said renewed her spirits, and I then went to -bed, having given her my hair dryer. We woke perhaps something after 7 -the next morning or closer to 8. - -Mr. JENNER. When you say "we", who do you mean? - -Mrs. PAINE. The household. I think we had not yet--we pretty much woke -all at once. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your husband remain at your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he remained at my home that night, the first time he -had been there in a great long time. We were still eating breakfast -or had just begun when the two Life people arrived again, this time -with an interpreter, a woman doctor whose name I don't remember, and -Marguerite Oswald and Marina Oswald, with her two little girls went -with these two Life Magazine people to downtown Dallas for the purpose -of seeing Lee, and Marguerite Oswald wanted to see that he got legal -counsel immediately. - -They were acting, the Life people were acting in this case as shovers, -I feel, and I also thought Marguerite Oswald was hoping that something -could be arranged between them, that would be financially helpful. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything that further stimulated your thoughts -and reaction in that direction? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I don't recall specifically but I have the clear -impression that---- - -Mr. JENNER. From her conversation with the Life representatives? - -Mrs. PAINE. From her conversation. Yes. They left quite soon, I -remember wishing Marina had taken more time to have more breakfast -since it was going to be a trying day, and that is the last I saw her -until March 9, in the evening, very recently. - -Mr. JENNER. March 9, 1964? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Just a week or so ago? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. She left, of course, expecting to come back. -She took only the immediate needs of the baby's diapers and bottle, -and I fully expected her to come back later that same day. I don't -really recall. I think there must have been some newsmen out then that -morning, later that morning. - -Mr. JENNER. To see you, at your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. At my home. I would be certain of that. The Houston -Post--well, yes. And Michael was there also, at least in the morning as -I recall, and talked with these people. - -I believe the local paper, Irving News, was there. Then Michael, as -I recall, went to do something related to his work or had to do some -shopping. - -Mr. JENNER. He left your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Anyway, in the afternoon I was the only one there and I -felt I had better get some grocery shopping done so as to be prepared -for a long stay home just answering the doorbell and telling what I -could to the people who wanted to know. I was just preparing to go to -the grocery store when several officers arrived again from the Dallas -Police Office and asked if they could search. - -This time I was in the yard, the front yard on the grass, and asked if -they could search and held up their warrant and I said, yes, they could -search. They said they were looking for something specific and I said, -"I want to go to the grocery store, I'll just go and you go ahead and -do your searching." - -I then went to the grocery store and when I came back they had finished -and left, locking my door which necessitated my getting out my key, I -don't normally lock my door when I go shopping. - -Representative FORD. Did you take your children shopping? - -Mrs. PAINE. Always. Then about 3:30 or 4 I got a telephone call. - -Mr. JENNER. The phone rang? - -Mrs. PAINE. The phone rang; I answered it. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you recognize the voice? - -Mrs. PAINE. I recognized the voice but I don't recall what he said? - -Mr. JENNER. What did the voice say? - -Mrs. PAINE. The voice said: "This is Lee." - -Mr. JENNER. Give your best recollection of everything you said and if -you can, please, everything he said, and exactly what you said. - -Mrs. PAINE. I said, "Well, Hi." And he said he wanted to ask me to call -Mr. John Abt in New York for him after 6 p.m. He gave me a telephone -number of an office in New York and a residence in New York. - -Mr. JENNER. Two telephone numbers he gave you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. One office and one residence of Mr. John Abt. Did he say -who Mr. John Abt was? - -Mrs. PAINE. He said he was an attorney he wanted to have. - -Mr. JENNER. Represent him? - -Mrs. PAINE. To represent him. He thanked me for my concern. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he tell you or ask you what you were to do or say to -Mr. Abt if you reached him? - -Mrs. PAINE. I carried the clear impression I was to ask him if he would -serve as attorney for Lee Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Have you given the substance of the conversation in as much detail, of -the entire conversation, as you now can recall? - -Mrs. PAINE. There is a little more that is---- - -Senator COOPER. Why don't you just go ahead and tell it as you remember -it, everything that he said and you said? - -Mrs. PAINE. I can't give the specific words to this part but I carry a -clear impression, too, that he sounded to me almost as if nothing out -of the ordinary had happened. - -I would make this telephone call for him, would help him, as I had in -other ways previously. He was, he expressed gratitude to me. I felt, -but did not express, considerable irritation at his seeming to be so -apart from the situation, so presuming of his own innocence, if you -will, but I did say I would make the call for him. - -Then he called back almost immediately. I gather that he had made the -call to me on the permission to make a different call and then he got -specific permission from the police to make a call to me and the call -was identical. - -Mr. JENNER. This is speculation? - -Mrs. PAINE. This is speculation but the content of the second call was -almost identical. - -Mr. JENNER. The phone rang? - -Mrs. PAINE. He asked me to contact John Abt. - -Mr. JENNER. He identified himself and he asked you to make the call? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he say? - -Mrs. PAINE. He wanted me to call this lawyer. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you express any surprise for him to call back almost -immediately giving you the same message that he had given previously? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think somebody must have said, that the officers had said -he could call, make this call. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything about the fact that he had already -just called you about the same subject matter? - -Mrs. PAINE. He may have added. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you, please? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. I was quite stunned that he called at all or that he -thought he could ask anything of me, appalled, really. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did he say he was innocent, or did he just have this -conversation with respect to the retention of a counsel? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is all. - -Mr. JENNER. At no time during either of those conversations did he deny -that he was in any way involved in this situation? - -Mrs. PAINE. He made no reference to why he was at the police station or -why he needed a lawyer. - -Mr. JENNER. He just assumed that you knew he was at the police station, -did he? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. That was your impression? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. He didn't say where he was? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. He just started out saying what you now say he said? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. But in no respect did he say to you that he was entirely -innocent of any charges that had been made against him? - -Mrs. PAINE. He did not say that. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he mention the subject at all of the assassination of -the President or the slaying of Officer Tippit? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not. - -Mr. JENNER. What you have given is your best recollection of the entire -conversation? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Representative FORD. This was Saturday afternoon, November 23? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Representative FORD. About what time? - -Mrs. PAINE. Four, perhaps in the afternoon. - -Representative FORD. Had you seen him the day before? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. McCLOY. Who was in the house with you when that call came in? - -Mrs. PAINE. Just my children. - -Mr. McCLOY. Just your children. - -Representative FORD. While you were shopping and after the officers had -come with a warrant, they went in the house, no one was in the house? - -Mrs. PAINE. For a portion of the time they were looking, no one was in -the house. - -Representative FORD. They were there alone? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did they indicate--were they still there when you got back? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; they were not. Remember the door was locked. - -Mr. McCLOY. Yes; the door was locked, that is what I gather. Do you -know what they took on this occasion, or did they tell you what they -were coming for? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I do not. Before I left they were leafing through books -to see if anything fell out but that is all I saw. - -Mr. McCLOY. All right. - -Mrs. PAINE. In this interim then, I suppose I talked to some more news -people but I want to get to the next important point which was that Lee -called again. - -Mr. JENNER. A third time? - -Mrs. PAINE. I really call the first two one, but it was twice dialed. - -Mr. JENNER. Fix the time, please. - -Mrs. PAINE. It was around 9:30 in the evening. - -Mr. JENNER. Who was home? Was your husband there on that occasion? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Was anyone else other than your children and yourself in -your home at the time of the receipt of the call in the evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. It could only have been Michael. I would remember someone -else. - -Mr. JENNER. But you have no definite recollection that even he was -present? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. The phone rang, you answered it. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you recognize the voice? - -Mrs. PAINE. I recognized the voice. - -Mr. JENNER. Whose was it? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was Lee Oswald's. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he say and what did you say? - -Mrs. PAINE. He said, "Marina, please," in Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. Please, Mrs. Paine, did he speak to you in English in the -conversations in the afternoon or in Russian? - -Mrs. PAINE. He spoke in English the entire conversation. - -Mr. JENNER. The two in the afternoon? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, however, he resorted to Russian, did he? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. He planned to speak to Marina. - -Mr. JENNER. I beg your pardon? - -Mrs. PAINE. He planned to speak to Marina, and this opening phrase was -one he normally used calling as he had many previous times to speak to -her. - -Mr. JENNER. He was under the assumption, you gathered, that Marina was -in your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. He certainly was. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. PAINE. And I would be fairly certain that I answered him in -English. I said she was not there, that I had a notion about where she -might be, but I wasn't at all certain. That I would try to find out. He -said, he wanted me to--he said he thought she should be at my house. He -felt irritated at not having been able to reach her. And he wanted me -to---- - -Mr. JENNER. Did he sound irritated? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he sounded just a slight edge to his voice. And he -wanted me to deliver a message to her that he thought she should be at -my house. - -Mr. JENNER. And he so instructed you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That is what he said? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. That was so far as I remember, the entire conversation. - -Mr. JENNER. What response did you give to his direction? - -Mrs. PAINE. I said I would try to reach her. - -Mr. JENNER. His direction---- - -Mrs. PAINE. And tell her his message. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. Paine, in the meantime, had you sought to reach John Abt? - -Mrs. PAINE. I had, after 6 o'clock, thank you. I had dialed both -numbers and neither answered. - -Mr. JENNER. Neither answered. Was there any conversation between you -and Lee Oswald in the evening conversation to which you reported to him -your inability to reach Mr. Abt? - -Mrs. PAINE. I do not specifically recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Or the subject of Mr. Abt at all? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't want to get into rationalization. I can judge that -something was said but I do not recall it specifically. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, have you given the full extent of that conversation? - -Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. At anytime during that conversation with Lee Harvey Oswald -did he assert or intimate in any form or fashion his innocence of any -charges against him? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Was the assassination mentioned at all? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; it was not. - -Mr. JENNER. Was the shooting or murder of Officer Tippit mentioned? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You have given everything that was said in that -conversation as best you are able to recall it at the moment? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. I then tried the only thing I knew to do, to -try to reach Marina. I had heard one of the FBI agents try to find her -when he was at my home, had dialed the hotel where the Life people were -staying, and asked to be put in contact with Marina and was told, I -judge, because he repeated it and wrote it down. Executive Inn. Here I -am turning detective in this small way. - -Mr. JENNER. You also mentioned now for the first time there were FBI -agents in your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. That day. - -Mr. JENNER. During the course of the day? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I then dialed---- - -Mr. JENNER. You shook your head, did you shake your head in the -affirmative? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there were FBI agents in my home during the day. One -I recalled made this telephone call. I was waiting to hear from Marina -to see if she wanted to talk with me. I had no desire to press her or -to attempt to reach her unless she wanted to reach me, but then with -this message, I went ahead and dialed the Executive Inn and asked for -Tommy Thompson, and Marguerite Oswald answered, and I said I would like -to talk to Marina, and she said, "Well, Marina is in the bathroom," -and I said to Marguerite that Lee had called me, that he wanted me to -deliver a message to Marina, that he wished for her to be at my home, -and Marguerite Oswald said, "Well, he is in prison, he don't know the -things we are up against, the things we have to face. What he wants -doesn't really matter," which surprised me. And again I asked to speak -to Marina and waited until I did speak to her and delivered the same -message in Russian to her but there was no further---- - -Mr. JENNER. What response did Marina make to the message that you -conveyed to her? - -Mrs. PAINE. She said she was very tired and wanted to get to bed, as I -recall, and thought it was certainly best to stay there that night. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that your best recollection? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And I certainly agreed with her. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything in response to your delivery of Lee -Oswald's message about Marina staying with you, of the possibility of -her staying with you, say, the next day? - -Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of that nature was said. I think I remember that -we did discuss whether she had seen Lee during the day, and on that -occasion it seems to me I learned that she had seen him around noon -but I may be wrong about when I learned that. I knew she had seen him. - -Mr. JENNER. Either in that conversation or any other conversation with -Marina that you may have had, was the subject of Lee Oswald's attitude -or any comments he made mentioned? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Nobody reported to you anything about any conversation they -might or did have with Lee Oswald either on the 22d or 23d or even on -the 24th of November 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. I am of the impression I again tried the home telephone -of John Abt on Sunday morning, but I am not certain, and there was no -answer. That I certainly remember. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you ever reach Abt? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever attempt to report to Lee Oswald that you had -been unable to reach Mr. Abt? - -Mrs. PAINE. Not unless such transpired in our 9:30 conversation -Saturday evening, but I made no effort to call the police station -itself. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me? - -Mrs. PAINE. I made no effort to call the police station. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have at anytime any further conversations with Lee -Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Other than what you have now related? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you have any impression as to why he wanted Marina to -come back with you? Was it in order to make her available for telephone -calls from him or what? - -Mrs. PAINE. What is distinctly my impression is that he thought she -should be available. That it was she wasn't where he could find her -that irritated him rather than that he thought this was the best place -for her. - -Representative FORD. Did you know of Mr. Abt or was this just---- - -Mrs. PAINE. I had never heard of Mr. Abt before. - -Representative FORD. Never heard of him? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Senator COOPER. Did Marguerite Oswald explain any further, in the -statement you said she made, about having too many obstacles or having -obstacles or having troubles? - -Mrs. PAINE. Are you referring to the statement on Friday night when she -was at my home? - -Senator COOPER. No. I think you said a few minutes ago when she went to -the hotel you called her and told her what Lee Oswald had told you to -tell Marina. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Senator COOPER. I think you said she said something about---- - -Mrs. PAINE. "Well, he doesn't understand the things we are up against -or things of this nature." What I remember most clearly is that she -didn't seem to care whether he was told the truth or not. - -Mr. JENNER. What? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, that is perhaps a further statement, told the truth -about--had it seemed to me a lack of respect on her part. She didn't -care what his wishes were in the situation, in other words. And this -sticks in my mind. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any conversation with Robert Oswald on the -22d, subsequent to the time that you met him when he first come to the -police station? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you on the 23d of November? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. The 24th? - -Mrs. PAINE. I believe the only other time I saw Robert was some 3 weeks -or more later when he came with two other people to pick up the rest of -Marina's things. - -Mr. JENNER. Then from the 22d of November until he came sometime in -December you had no conversation with him and you had not seen him? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. You had no contact at all with him? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection. Marina called me around noon -on Sunday, the 24th. She said she was with the police, and, of course, -this was said in Russian; I don't know whether she meant Secret Service -or Irving Police or Dallas Police or what sort, but official. Her -husband had already been shot at this time, so it was just after. He -had been shot and I had the television on and I knew that. - -Representative FORD. Did she know it? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am certain she did. What makes me certain I can't recall -definitely. I felt that she was confining herself in her conversation -to the things she just had to say. - -Senator COOPER. What did she say? - -Mrs. PAINE. She was directing me how to find certain things she needed -to have. A winter coat, things for the baby, a little purse with some -money in it that she left either on top of the dresser or in a drawer -in the bedroom where they had stayed. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she sound less than cordial---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no, she sounded, as I recall it, as a call from a woman -who was doing her best to simply achieve the things she had to do but -was under a tremendous strain. - -Mr. JENNER. Was any mention made of the death of her husband? - -Mrs. PAINE. He was not yet dead, he had been shot but he was not yet -dead. - -Mr. JENNER. Was any mention made between you in this conversation of -the fact that Lee Oswald had been shot? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall such. - -Mr. JENNER. You didn't mention it? - -Mrs. PAINE. I did not tell her; no. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you--it might be natural that you would express -sympathy. Did you mention the subject at all, sympathetical or -otherwise? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall mentioning the subject and as I say, I have -this distinct feeling that she knew, and I knew she knew but what -caused that, I can't identify. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling, if I may use some vernacular, -that she was "under wraps" or rather she was bereft and just seeking to -do---- - -Mrs. PAINE. I had no feeling she was restraining herself from saying -any particular things. - -Mr. JENNER. Was under restraint? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. From some outside source? - -Mrs. PAINE. I had no such feeling. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. PAINE. I then, well, I should say there were one or two officers -from the Irving Police Department there who were waiting to take the -things that she directed---- - -Mr. JENNER. The police officers had already arrived at your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I guess I remembered it as virtually simultaneous. -I might fill in, whether it is important to your inquiry or not, -the moment the television announced that Lee Oswald had been shot, -an Irving Police patrol car that had been going by my house and had -hesitated in front, stopped and the officer got out carrying a rifle -and came into my house, closed the curtains and said he was here to -protect me. I later learned that he thought Mrs. Oswald, Marina Oswald, -was in the house, and he had been directed by his car radio to come in, -and he then closed all the blinds and peered out. And it was in the -midst of this time that Marina called, so you see the officers were -there already on other business. - -Mr. JENNER. The officer was in your home when you talked with Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; when Marina made the call. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything to the officers that Marina had called -when you finished that conversation? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You told them? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you tell them anything of the substance of the call? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that I was to get some things and I think they had -the same information separately a different way from a car radio or -something at the same time, which was to put some things together to -take to her. I did then pack one or two, or even three of the suit -cases we talked about yesterday with baby things. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine. You keep referring to one or two or -three. Were there as many as three? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think there were as many as three, including a very -small, you might say, cosmetic case, only more, not as fancy as that. -This was in her room, and I recall looking in it and seeing a family -album of photographs and thinking this had better be in her hands, and -included that along with clothes. I sent a childs toy, some things that -I thought might be helpful to her in keeping her children happy as well -as the individual items she had asked for specifically. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you sense any note of estrangement at all between you -and Marina when she telephoned you? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; the situation was strained. - -Mr. McCLOY. Strained because she hadn't reappeared, you mean? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; because her husband had been shot. - -Mr. McCLOY. No; I meant in your conversation with her was there any -indication of any coolness between you? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; none I detected. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you noticed any when you were in the police station? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no. - -Mr. JENNER. On the previous day? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no. - -Mr. JENNER. None at all. So that up to the moment of this telephone -conversation and after you finished you had no feeling there was any -estrangement, any coolness, any change in attitude on the part of -Marina toward you as a person? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. McCLOY. Have you felt any evidence of that since? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and that has several parts to it and I could easily go -into it now. - -Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask her some general questions and Senator -Cooper asked me if I would permit her just to go through the day as she -has without, with a minimum of, interruptions so that you and he might, -and Representative Ford, might ask some general questions before you -left, so that is what I have done. - -Mr. McCLOY. Have you completed your report? - -Mrs. PAINE. That brings us to the 24th so that all else is really quite -post the assassination. - -Mr. McCLOY. There is one thing I would like to ask before I go, if I -may, and that is your husband testified that several times he had moved -this blanket when it was in the garage. Can you fix the date when he -was in your house and working in the garage so that he was compelled to -move the blanket? When did he come to---- - -Mrs. PAINE. He normally came on Friday evening. He would sometimes come -on a Sunday afternoon, and either of those times could have been times -that he had worked in the garage. - -Mr. McCLOY. That was all through September, October? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; September, October; yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. But when he had been working there he never mentioned to -you any--about the existence of this blanket, package which he had been -compelled to move? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. That didn't come up until after the assassination. - -Mr. McCLOY. It didn't come up until after the assassination. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, you are seeking to refresh your recollection -from what document, please? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am looking at a calendar to see if there is anyway that I -can tell when Michael was in the house. - -Mr. JENNER. That is Commission exhibit number what? - -Mrs. PAINE. 401. But it has not helped me in refreshing my memory. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you have contacts with the FBI and if so what were they -before the assassination? - -Mrs. PAINE. An FBI agent was out, I have learned since, on November 1. -I made no note of the day for myself. Sat down and talked in a relaxed -way and for sometime in my living room. He said that the FBI liked -to make it plain to people who have been in this country sometime, -immigrated from an iron curtain country if they were experiencing any -blackmail pressure from their home country, that they were welcome, and -invited to discuss it with the FBI if they so choose. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Marina was present? - -Mrs. PAINE. Marina was present. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she overhear? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am not certain--I tried to translate some of this -conversation, I am not certain how good my translation was or how well -I conveyed it, or even if I conveyed it to her. - -Mr. JENNER. But you do recall translating some of the conversation to -her? - -Mrs. PAINE. I do recall translating some of the conversation indeed. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you at times asked to address Marina to convey -something that the FBI agent asked you to convey to her and then to -translate in the reverse to him? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall anything as formal as that; no. The agent -and I conversed some in English. He said, for instance, that, well he -was interested in knowing if Lee Oswald lived here. I told him he did -not, that he had a room in town; he asked if I knew where the room was -and I said I did not. He asked if he was working and I said yes, and -that he was working at the Texas School Book Depository. I haven't gone -over any of this yet, it must have been in conversation with you. - -Mr. JENNER. You testified to this yesterday afternoon? - -Mrs. PAINE. I thought I did. It sounds familiar. - -Mr. McCLOY. I just wanted to fix for my own benefit the number of times -you saw FBI agents prior to the assassination in the company of Marina. - -Mr. JENNER. There was a succeeding date? - -Mrs. PAINE. There was a succeeding date which again I have been told by -the FBI was November 5, the first time. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall it was a few days after the first man came? - -Mrs. PAINE. I recall---- - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall it was in your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. I recall it was in the early part of the week. - -Mr. JENNER. Did the same gentleman call? - -Mrs. PAINE. The same gentleman. He had someone else along. - -Mr. JENNER. That was Mr. Hosty, the gentleman whom you now have in mind? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I now know his name as Hosty. - -Mr. McCLOY. From that you knew that the FBI was still interested in the -activity of Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, indeed. - -Mr. McCLOY. That is what I want to bring out. I think that is all I -have, the questions I have. - -Are you going to take up later this estrangement as to how it developed? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; I shall do that this afternoon. Representative Ford -has afforded me a list of subjects upon which to make inquiry and I -will do so this afternoon. Perhaps Representative Ford and Senator -Cooper, you would have some questions of this lady before we adjourn -for the luncheon period? - -Senator COOPER. Are you going to continue this afternoon? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Senator COOPER. I will postpone mine until this afternoon. I think Mr. -McCloy and Congressman Ford have to go. - -Representative FORD. Mr. Jenner, I will give you these questions -and use those, if any, that are other than what you planned to use -yourself. I am a little interested and I would like to hear you tell -it, if I could, Mrs. Paine, how much did you know about the finances of -Lee and Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. It seemed to me they lived on a very small budget. In -March of the year, at either the first or second visit with her, she -told me she lived on something under, around $200 a month and this was -more than they had been, because they had just finished paying a debt -that they had incurred for their passage to this country and they were -feeling rich on $200 a month, and I could see she was a good planner -in what she bought. I could see they seldom, if ever, bought clothes -for themselves or even for June. In the fall then Lee never volunteered -or gave any money for the cost of her being at my house. He did on -one occasion buy a few things at the grocery store for, at Marina's -request, which he paid for, and on another occasion I was aware that he -had given her some money to buy shoes. Did I mention this previously? - -Representative FORD. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Yesterday afternoon you did; yes. - -Representative FORD. But even after he gained employment at the Texas -School Book Depository and was being paid he never gave her any money -for her to contribute to you? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not. - -Representative FORD. Did Marina ever express any concern about this? - -Mrs. PAINE. Periodically she expressed her embarrassment at having to -receive always from me. I tried to convince her how useful and helpful -it was to me to have her conversation, but I never felt I had convinced -her of that. I would have to say I am guessing that she hoped Lee would -contribute. It would have been like her to think that he should. - -Mr. JENNER. You gather that from the fact that she did raise the -subject occasionally? - -Mrs. PAINE. Just from the fact that she raised her embarrassment? Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Representative FORD. I think that is all now. Mr. Jenner, you can use -those to supplement or as you see fit during the interrogation this -afternoon. Thank you. - -Mr. McCLOY. I have no more questions. - -I would like to say this though, perhaps, Mrs. Paine, that you -understand we are not trying to punish anybody here. We are not---- - -Mrs. PAINE. I do understand. - -Mr. McCLOY. This is not a court of law. We are trying to get at the -facts. Anything that you can contribute before you complete your -testimony which would help us to get the facts we would like to -receive, whether it be in the form of hunches or anything that you -have, and you must not, I suggest that you don't, assume that merely -because we haven't examined you on a particular fact that if there is -anything that you do have in mind that you advance it and volunteer it -for the benefit of the further security of the country. - -Mrs. PAINE. I have tried very hard to think of the things that I -thought would be useful to you, especially as we had so little time in -advance of testifying to help me recall in thinking about it. - -Mr. JENNER. May I say, Mr. McCloy, that Mrs. Paine yesterday and -the day before, when I had an opportunity to talk with her, she did -volunteer several matters of which we had no notice whatsoever. For -example, the telephone calls by Lee Harvey Oswald to her, we had not -known of that. And the existence of the curtain rods. - -Mr. McCLOY. Anything that is in the background that you have---- - -Mrs. PAINE. I did want to amend my testimony of yesterday in one small -particular. I spoke, indeed, during the testimony I recalled this -incident of Lee having gotten into my car, started it, and did the -driving from my home to the parking lot where we practiced, pretty much -over my objection in a sense but I did not object strongly enough. I -said this was about three blocks. That would appear that it was walking -distance. It was longer than that. - -If you have someone out there in time, why I could go with the person -to show just exactly what the distance was. - -Representative FORD. What was his reaction when you objected? First, -was your objection just oral, was it strong, was it admonition, of what -kind? - -Mrs. PAINE. I felt that, and this is what you are getting at too and I -think something we haven't yet discussed, is the matter of what kind -of person this was or how I reacted to the kind of person he was. He -seemed to me prickly, all sharp points and edgy, and I wished he could -be more relaxed and more at ease. I didn't want to confront him with -a statement of, "Lee, I didn't want you to start this car and take it -yourself", so I simply said, "my father is an insurance man and he -certainly would not want me to be permitting you to drive in the street -when you don't even have a learner's permit yet, and I will certainly -drive it home." - -From the time I had first known him he had changed in his attitude -toward me, I felt. I felt in the spring he expected to be disliked, -that he carried a shell of proud disdain around him to protect himself -from human contact, and this was falling away from him at my home. - -Mr. JENNER. In the fall you mean? - -Mrs. PAINE. In the fall of the year, in October and November. He began -to appear much more at ease, and as if he had some confidence in how he -would be treated. It is a whole subject really. - -Representative FORD. Can you give us a little more information on what -you said to him and what he, or how he responded in this incident -involving the car? - -Mrs. PAINE. I would say he clearly wanted to do the driving and to -drive in the street. I felt that this, my not permitting him to, was -one of the things that was helping to get him to the office where he -could get a learner's permit, and he was eager to be driving, and to -learn to drive on the street. - -Representative FORD. Did he just slough off, so to speak, your -admonition that he shouldn't drive? - -Mrs. PAINE. I didn't make it a requirement that he stop right there so -he didn't have to stop. - -Representative FORD. You just suggested it might be better? - -Mrs. PAINE. I just made it clear I was uncomfortable and on the way -home I would drive. - -Mr. McCLOY. There is one thing we haven't had testimony about, I -imagine, except implicitly. - -It is alleged that Lee possessed a .38 caliber revolver. Do you, in the -light of hindsight, perhaps, do you have any feeling now that he was -secreting that weapon on your premises? - -Mrs. PAINE. I had no idea that it was there or ever was there. - -Mr. McCLOY. Nothing now makes you feel that it was there other than the -finding of the rifle? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Representative FORD. Thank you very much, Mrs. Paine. - -Senator COOPER. The Commission will recess until 2 o'clock today. - -(Whereupon, at 12:20 p.m., the Commission recessed.) - - - - -Afternoon Session - -TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED - - -The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m. - -The CHAIRMAN. We will start now. We will continue until Senator Cooper -comes and then he will preside the rest of the afternoon. I will be -busy with Mr. Rankin some of the time. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice. - -Mrs. Paine, this morning I was seeking to qualify and introduce in -evidence Commission Exhibit 425, which, at the time I had it in my -hand, consisted of one page. You called my attention to the fact that -it was a letter dated October 14, 1963, to your mother by you in your -handwriting, but that you had only given me the first page or sheet, -which consists front and reverse of two pages. Then you tendered me the -second page or sheet, and indicated some reluctance about the need for -its use in this connection. - -During the noon recess you have afforded me the possession of the -second page, and my recollection is you have voiced no objection to its -introduction in evidence. - -Mrs. PAINE. I have no objection to its introduction. It refers just to -personal matters, but if you don't have it, you will have to wonder -what it is. It is better not to wonder. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. And it does give the full context of the really -pertinent statements that you made in the first two pages and to which -you made allusion yesterday in your testimony. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. I direct your attention to the second sheet, the first of -which is numbered three and the reverse side numbered four. - -Is the handwriting on both of those sheets yours? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes it is. - -Mr. JENNER. And it is the third and fourth pages of the letter to which -you referred yesterday and again this morning, Commission Exhibit No. -425? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is. - -Mr. JENNER. And that page is in the same condition now as when--that is -pages three and four, as when--you dispatched the entire letter to your -mother? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chief Justice, I offer Commission Exhibit No. 425 in -evidence. It has been heretofore marked. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 425 was marked and received in evidence.) - -Mr. JENNER. There have been marked as Commission's exhibits in this -series 451 and 453 to 456, a series of five colored photographs -purporting to be photographs of one Curtis La Verne Crafard, taken on -the 28th day of November 1963. Mrs. Paine would you be good enough to -look at each of those, and after you have looked at them, I wish to ask -you a question. - -Mrs. PAINE. I have looked at them all. - -Mr. JENNER. Calling on your recollection of the physiognomy and -appearance of Lee Oswald, do you detect a resemblance between the man -depicted in those photographs, the exhibit numbers of which I have -given, and Lee Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. To the best of your present recollection, do you recall -whether you have ever seen the person whose features are reflected on -those photographs? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I have not seen him. - -The CHAIRMAN. May I see those, please? - -Mrs. PAINE. Should I say that one picture in particular struck me as -looking similar to Lee? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. When the Chief Justice has concluded his examination I -will have you pick out that one in particular. Thank you, sir. When you -select it will you give the exhibit number which appears on the reverse -side? - -Mrs. PAINE. Exhibit No. 453. Clearly the shoulders are broader than -with Lee, but it is a quality about the face that recalls Oswald to my -mind. - -Mr. JENNER. And the jacket? - -Mrs. PAINE. And the attire. - -Mr. JENNER. The attire that is shown on the exhibit which is the first -one you have before you, what is the number of that? - -Mrs. PAINE. Exhibit 451. - -Mr. JENNER. I asked you to describe Lee Oswald, his general attire. Did -he normally wear a zipper jacket of the character shown on that exhibit? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And referring to the other photographs, you say that man's -attire is similar to that Lee Oswald normally effected and employed. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. It certainly is. - -Mr. JENNER. I offer Commission Exhibits Nos. 451 and 453 through 456. - -The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibits Nos. 451 and 453 through 456 were received in -evidence.) - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, the Commissioners this morning, had especially -directed questions to you evidencing their interest in FBI interviews. - -The CHAIRMAN. Senator, will you now continue to preside please, so I -will be free to work with Mr. Rankin a little this afternoon. I will -remain here though for a while. - -Senator COOPER. Thank you. - -Mr. JENNER. I gather the first interview by any FBI agent to your -knowledge was on the first day of November 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and I don't really think interview is a fully accurate -word. - -Mr. JENNER. What word would you like to use? - -Mrs. PAINE. I felt that the agent stopped to see whether the Oswalds, -either Mrs. Oswald or Mr., were living there, and to make the -acquaintance of me. He said that he had talked with my immediate -neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, the previous time. - -Mr. JENNER. The pronoun you are using refers to the FBI agent. - -Mrs. PAINE. He, the FBI agent. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. Said that he had inquired of my next door neighbor, Mrs. -Roberts, whether the Oswalds lived here, and she had said that she -didn't know the last name but knew that the wife of the family was -living there, and that there had just been a baby girl born, and that -the husband came out some week ends. - -Mr. JENNER. Is this what the agent told you? - -Mrs. PAINE. No, the neighbor told me. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. All right. - -Mrs. PAINE. And I judged he wanted to find out directly. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you finished? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you subsequently learned the name of the gentleman who -interviewed you or conversed with you? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have subsequently learned his name, yes. It was James -Hosty. - -The CHAIRMAN. What was the name? - -Mrs. PAINE. James Hosty, H-O-S-T-Y. - -Mr. JENNER. I don't wish you to give that full interview again because -you touched on it yesterday and again at greater length this morning. -But I do wish to ask you with respect to that interview, did you give -Agent Hosty the telephone numbers that you had received from Lee Oswald -as to where he might be reached in Dallas? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't. He asked me if I knew where Lee lived. I did -think of these phone numbers, but---- - -Mr. JENNER. During the course of the---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Or later. - -Mr. JENNER. Of the interview? - -Mrs. PAINE. At least between that time and the time he came again, but -I have been impressed with what I have now concluded was a mistaken -impression I have which effected my behavior; namely, that the FBI -was in possession of a great deal of information, or so I thought, -and certainly would find it very easy to find out where Lee Oswald -was living. I really didn't believe they didn't know or needed to -find out from me. This is a feeling stemming from my understanding of -the difficulties they faced working in a free society. I would behave -quite differently now, but I have learned a lot from this particular -experience. - -Mr. JENNER. Now was there a subsequent interview? - -Mrs. PAINE. There was an interview a few days later, yes, interview to -the extent that he came to the door, walked in the door. We didn't as -much as sit down. But he asked again about an address. I had none. I -did say that I expected---- - -Mr. JENNER. An address as to where Lee resided? - -Mrs. PAINE. In town where he resided. I did say that I expected that -when Marina moved into an apartment with Lee again, as we all thought -would occur, that I would be in contact with her, and that I would be -perfectly willing to give him information as to that address when I had -such, but that my contact was with her and therefore through that way I -would have the address. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you again interviewed by telephone or otherwise by any -FBI agent prior to November 22, 1963. - -Mrs. PAINE. I have mentioned two times. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. And that was all. - -Mr. JENNER. That was all. So up to the time of the assassination, the -only interviews with the FBI to your knowledge were on the first? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. You will recall your testimony yesterday, Mrs. Paine, of -the incident in which a telephone call was made by you at the request -of Marina using the telephone number that has been left with you by -Lee Oswald, and your inability to locate him, in fact the person who -answered the telephone stated that there was no Lee Oswald living -there. Do you recall your testimony on that score? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you report that to the FBI? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. You also recall your testimony with respect to the draft of -the proposed letter which I think is before you, and that is Commission -exhibit number? - -Mrs. PAINE. 130. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you call the FBI and advise them of that incident? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. And without seeking to have you repeat your testimony, were -your reasons for not doing so the same as the one that you gave when I -asked you whether you had given Agent Hosty the telephone number? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; not identical. Certainly I didn't think that they had -any information of such a letter, whereas I did think they knew where -he lived or could easily find out, and of course they could also come -to the house and see him at my house as he came on weekends. - -Mr. JENNER. You did say to the FBI? - -Mrs. PAINE. I did. - -Mr. JENNER. That he would be at your home on weekends. - -Mrs. PAINE. And I judged by the fact they didn't come that this was -not someone they were terribly worried about talking to immediately. -Both this letter, and the telephone conversation really, the one that -followed it, where Marina reported to me that he was using a different -name, were something new and different in the situation that made me -feel this was a man I hadn't accurately perceived before. - -I have said my impression in reading the letter was--I have said -something similar to this--that of a small boy wanting to get in good -with the boys, trying to use words that he thought would please. I -didn't know to whom he addressed himself, but it struck me as something -out of Pravda in his terminology. And I knew, as I have testified, that -several of the statements in it were flatly false, and I wondered about -the rest, and then when I heard that he was using a different name, -that again was indication of a great disregard for truth on the part of -Lee Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. Now what time of day did the interview on November 1 take -place? - -Mrs. PAINE. Afternoon. - -Mr. JENNER. Late? - -Mrs. PAINE. Middle of the afternoon. My memory is there were no -children around which means it was nap time. - -Mr. JENNER. It couldn't have been along about 5 o'clock in the -afternoon? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was a Friday, wasn't it? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, it was. - -Mrs. PAINE. And he probably came out that Friday. - -Mr. JENNER. You were just telling the agent, you had told the agent, -had you not, that he came on weekends. - -Mrs. PAINE. I did. - -Mr. JENNER. And he arrived on Fridays? - -Mrs. PAINE. I did. - -Mr. JENNER. And this was a Friday? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was, and you will recall yesterday---- - -Mr. JENNER. And you did tell the agent that? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. It had to have been that session. I know I certainly -told him, and it had to have been that time because the second meeting -was very brief and had only to do with the address. - -Mr. JENNER. And that was not on a Friday? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; it was not. - -Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about the agent remaining because Lee -Oswald would be along, he was expected? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. May I interject here to recall to your mind that as I -looked through my calendar trying to find if there was any time, any -weekend other than the weekend of October 12, that Lee arrived on a -Saturday instead of a Friday, it had to be that weekend by deduction. -And I don't recall whether he arrived that Friday evening. - -I do recall when he arrived we told him about this meeting and I gave -him the piece of paper on which I had written Mr. Hosty's name and the -normal telephone number for the FBI in Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. But you recall no conversation. May I suggest this to -you as possibly refreshing your recollection. That on that Friday -afternoon, which I may say to you now, Mrs. Paine, is reported by Agent -Hosty as having taken place on November 1, and he has made his report -accordingly, was there any discussion of a suggestion that Lee Oswald -would be out that weekend, that is either that you told him he would -not be or that he would be, that you would expect him? - -Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is that I said he came out here on weekends -and he could be seen then. - -Mr. JENNER. Go ahead. - -Mrs. PAINE. And I have no recollection of ever thinking he was not -going to come that weekend. - -Mr. JENNER. You have also testified that you were also advised in -advance when he was coming? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. He asked permission. So if he were coming on the 1st of -November, that very day, you would have been advised in advance that he -was coming, would you not, according to your testimony. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I would think so. - -Mr. JENNER. But you don't recall saying anything to Agent Hosty that he -was coming that evening, at least that you expected him to be there. - -Mrs. PAINE. I may have. I don't specifically recall. - -Mr. JENNER. But you do have a recollection that you told him at least -generally that Lee Oswald came to your home on weekends? - -Mrs. PAINE. I feel certain of that. - -Mr. JENNER. In any event, Agent Hosty did not remain? - -Mrs. PAINE. He did not remain. I don't think it was very close to 5 -when he left. It was earlier in the afternoon. - -Mr. JENNER. You are inclined to think the interview took place earlier -in the afternoon, that is prior to 5 o'clock? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; more likely 2 to 3 or 3:30. - -Mr. JENNER. During the slumber hours of your children? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Now you are certain in your own mind that you had no -interview or no FBI agent interviewed you prior to November 1? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And if an FBI agent did interview you, you were not aware -that you were being interviewed? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is absolutely correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection that on October 29, that would -be 2 days before the Friday session that you have testified about, that -some sales person or purporting to be a sales person or a drummer or -somebody came to your door and made some inquiries of you about the -Oswalds? - -Mrs. PAINE. October 29 is a Tuesday. I don't recall any such encounter. -Written on my calendar is "Dal" for Dallas "Junie" meaning we went to a -clinic in Dallas in the morning. It doesn't say about the rest of the -day. - -Mr. JENNER. Now when you reported to Lee Oswald the name of the agent -and the telephone number, you put that on a slip of paper. - -Mrs. PAINE. I did. - -Mr. JENNER. And handed the slip of paper to him? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any conversation between you then as to FBI -agents having at any time prior thereto interviewed Lee Oswald. - -Mrs. PAINE. There may have been. I am certainly clear that I was told -probably by Marina that he had been interviewed, or by both of them, -that he had been interviewed in Fort Worth when they first returned -from the Soviet Union. This I knew before the time of the assassination. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Marina say whether she had been interviewed in Fort -Worth? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. This was only that Lee Oswald had been interviewed at Fort -Worth? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. But you recall no conversation in which either Lee or -Marina said or intimated to you that they had, either of them had been -interviewed either in New Orleans or in Dallas. - -Mrs. PAINE. Nothing was mentioned of having been interviewed in New -Orleans or Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. You made some reference yesterday, and I want to keep it in -context, to the license number of the FBI agent. - -Mrs. PAINE. Not in testimony. Did I? - -Mr. JENNER. I thought you had. - -Mrs. PAINE. Perhaps. - -Mr. JENNER. It would be well if we went into that. Would you please -recite what that incident was? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am confused by the question. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the matter of the taking of the agent's -license number from his automobile? - -Mrs. PAINE. I was told by Agent Hosty well after the assassination -that they had found in Oswald's room in Dallas a slip of paper which -included not only Hosty's name and the telephone number of the FBI in -Dallas, but also the license plate number with one letter incorrect, -one number incorrect, of the car that Hosty had driven out. This was -the first I had heard anything about their having been a license plate. - -Mr. JENNER. You did not take---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Number taken down. - -Mr. JENNER. You did not take the number down and place it on that piece -of paper? - -Mrs. PAINE. I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Or give it to Lee Harvey Oswald or to Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. I did not. I was never at any time interested in the -license plate number. I wondered why anyone else would have been. - -Mr. JENNER. In any event, the first you heard of the license number was -after the assassination? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Under the circumstances you have now related? - -Mrs. PAINE. I might describe the second meeting with Mr. Hosty a little -more in detail. - -Mr. JENNER. That is November 1? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is the only way I can guess as to how this license -plate number was in Oswald's room. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. PAINE. Hosty and I, and a second agent was with him, I don't know -the name, stood at the door of my home and talked briefly, as I have -already described, about the address of Oswald in Dallas. Marina was -in her room feeding the baby, or busy some way. She came in just as -Hosty and I were closing the conversation, and I must say we were both -surprised at her entering. He then took his leave immediately, and as -he has told me later, drove to the end of my street which curves and -then drove back down Fifth Street. - -Mr. JENNER. Now you are reporting something agent Hosty has told you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of the fact that he drove to the end of the -street? - -Mrs. PAINE. Not at that time, no. I was aware that he had parked his -car out in front of my house. My best judgment is that the license -plate was not visible, however, while it was parked; not visible from -my house. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see the car? - -Mrs. PAINE. I saw the car. - -Mr. JENNER. Parked? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I noticed it particularly. Because the first time he -had come on the 1st of November, he had parked down the street, and -he made reference to the fact that they don't like to draw attention -for the neighborhood to any interviews that they make, and in fact -my neighbor also commented when she had talked with him a few days -previously that his car was parked down the street and wasn't in front -of my house. So I noticed the change that he had parked directly in -front. But to the best of my recollection, in back of the Oldsmobile of -my husband's. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you attempt to look to see what his license number was? - -Mrs. PAINE. What? - -Mr. JENNER. Did you attempt to look at his automobile to see what the -license number was? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; nor could I have seen it from my house without my -glasses on. I am nearsighted, and I was not wearing them. - -Mr. JENNER. But the license plate would have been visible to anybody -walking down the street or who desired? - -Mrs. PAINE. Walking down the street, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Or looking out your garage. - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't think so, because to the best of my recollection, -an Oldsmobile that my husband bought was also in front of the house, so -that the cars would have been close at the bumpers. - -Mr. JENNER. So the license plates would have been screened by the -Oldsmobile? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you given us all you have in mind with respect to the -incidents? - -Mrs. PAINE. There is one other thing which is a little different, and I -had forgotten it but it is recalled by our conversation. I have already -said that I said to Agent Hosty that if in the future Marina and Lee -are living together, and I know, or I have correspondence with them I -would give him his address if he wished it. Then it was the next day or -that evening or sometime shortly thereafter Marina said to me while we -were doing dishes that she felt their address was their business. Now -my understanding is she doesn't understand English well. The word in -Russian for address is "adres," and she made it plain that this was a -matter of privacy for them. This surprised me. She had never spoken in -this way to me before, and I didn't see that it made any difference. - -Mr. JENNER. Did this arise out of, or in connection with, or was it -stimulated, by any discussion between the two of you of the visit of -Agent Hosty? - -Mrs. PAINE. So far as I could see, it arose separately. - -Mr. JENNER. So far as you can recall? - -Mrs. PAINE. As far as I can recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you make any effort to obtain Lee Oswald's address so -that you could give it to the FBI? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. As I have testified, I really thought they had it. - -Mr. JENNER. When you made the telephone call to Lee Oswald and learned -he apparently was living under an alias, and certainly in that weekend -immediately preceding the assassination when the argument occurred -between Marina and Lee Oswald on which he upbraided her for having made -the call, you still weren't activated to call the FBI and tell them -that he was living under an assumed name, is that true? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is true. I did expect to give this copy which I had -made of his "Dear Sirs," letter which you have marked Commission -Exhibit 103 to the FBI agent at the next meeting. - -Mr. JENNER. At the time he called if he did call? - -Mrs. PAINE. I thought he would. - -Mr. JENNER. During the interview on November 1, you have testified that -Marina was present some of the time. - -Mrs. PAINE. She was present virtually all of that time. - -Mr. JENNER. All of the time? - -Mrs. PAINE. And virtually none of the next time. - -Mr. JENNER. Virtually none. - -Mrs. PAINE. Just came in at the end, on the 5th. - -Mr. JENNER. Was she out in the yard? Did you get that impression any -time during that second interview? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; she had to have been in her room the entire time. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you firm, reasonably firm that Marina, even if she -desired to learn of the license number on Agent Hosty's car, that she -could not have seen or detected it while remaining in the house? - -Mrs. PAINE. She might possibly--oh, I wouldn't say that. It is -conceivable, depending on where it was parked, it is conceivable that -she could have seen it from the bedroom window. - -Mr. JENNER. You are holding up exhibit number? - -Mrs. PAINE. 430. - -Mr. JENNER. And you are pointing to what on that exhibit? - -Mrs. PAINE. The window of the bedroom which she occupied, which is the -southeast bedroom of my house, looks directly out to where I thought -the car was parked. From that position, if I am correct about where the -car was parked, she couldn't have seen the license plate, but she could -have seen it if as Agent Hosty described to me later she saw it while -the car was moving along the street. - -Mr. JENNER. When he pulled away? - -Mrs. PAINE. When he pulled away and then he came back and went the -other way. - -Mr. JENNER. So it is possible that she may have seen the license? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is possible. - -Mr. JENNER. This date that you are now talking about when he parked the -car in front of your house, that was November 5? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it was. - -Mr. JENNER. Whereas on November 1, he parked the car down the street. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. I might add a little more detail here if you -want it. Marina and I talked about whether to tell Lee that the FBI -had been out a second time, and the 5th was a Tuesday. We didn't see -Lee until the 8th. She said to me that he had been upset by the FBI's -coming out and inquiring about him, and he felt it was interference -with his family. And I said there is no reason for him to be upset, or -I think conveyed that idea. But the question of whether to tell him was -settled by Marina who told him on Friday evening, the 8th, and then -Lee inquired of me about that meeting, and he said--I don't think I -have yet said for the record--he said to me then he felt the FBI was -inhibiting his activities. This is what he said. Has this been said? - -Mr. JENNER. Not yet. - -Mrs. PAINE. All right, I have said it. I said to him "Don't be worried -about it. You have your rights to your views, whether they are popular -or not." But I could see that he didn't take that view but rather was -seriously bothered by their having come out and inquired about him. At -this time or another, I don't recall certainly, I asked whether he was -worried about losing his job, and he was. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say so, Mrs. Paine? - -Mrs. PAINE. I recall particularly a telephone conversation with him. -On one of those in which he called out to talk to Marina, I judge, -and perhaps she was busy still changing a baby and I talked. I don't -recall the exact circumstances but I do recall it, and I said to him -if his views, not any references now to the FBI or their interest in -him, but if his political views were interfering with his ability to -hold a job, that this might be a matter of interest to the American -Civil Liberties Union, that he should in our country have a right to -unpopular views or any other kind. - -This I believe was after he had been to an American Civil Liberties -Union meeting with my husband, that meeting having been October 25. - -Mr. JENNER. What was his response? - -Mrs. PAINE. He was pleased, I felt. He felt in a sense reassured. And -indeed I think his response was to join, because it was later reported -in the press that he had, which makes me think that this telephone -conversation was quite close to the time of the assassination. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine---- - -Mrs. PAINE. I am putting in a lot of guesswork. - -Mr. JENNER. Am I interrupting you? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. It is just that I wonder if you want me to dredge this -deeply into things I cannot be absolutely certain about. - -Mr. JENNER. We would like your best recollection. We do hesitate about -speculation. - -Mrs. PAINE. Indeed. - -Mr. JENNER. When we are asking about factual matters. We do ask for -your speculation occasionally, but to try to make it quite deliberate -when we are asking for that rather than for facts. Have you now stated -all that comes to mind with respect to the advice to Lee Oswald of the -visit of FBI agents or any discussion with Mr. Oswald at any time while -he visited your home during this period in 1963 prior to November 22 -with respect to FBI agent visits? - -Have you now exhausted your recollection on the subject? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think one other thing. Agent Hosty asked me, and I am not -certain which time, but more likely the second, since so far as I can -recall Marina wasn't present, if I thought this was a mental problem, -his words referring to Lee Oswald, and I said I didn't understand the -mental processes of anyone who could espouse the Marxist philosophy, -but that this was far different from saying he was mentally unstable or -unable to conduct himself in normal society. - -I did tell Lee that this question had been asked. He gave no reply, but -more a scoffing laugh, hardly voiced. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you now exhausted your recollection? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have clearly exhausted it. - -Senator COOPER. Who asked the question? - -Mrs. PAINE. Hosty asked the question "Is this a mental problem?" - -Senator COOPER. Did you ever hear Oswald express any anger toward -either the agents or the FBI, as an agency? - -Mrs. PAINE. He expressed distinct irritation that he was being -bothered. That is how he looked upon it. - -Senator COOPER. You said that you thought he was concerned about its -effect upon his job, but did he express any emotion other than that? - -Mrs. PAINE. And he was being inhibited in what he wanted to do. - -Senator COOPER. Any irritation or anger because they had interviewed? - -Mrs. PAINE. In tone of voice, yes. - -Senator COOPER. What would it be like? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, irritated. He said, "They are trying to inhibit my -activities." - -Senator COOPER. Did he swear at all? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Senator COOPER. He used no language. - -Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't. - -Senator COOPER. Did he raise the tone of his voice? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Senator COOPER. Did he show---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Nothing more than an edge to his voice I would say. - -Senator COOPER. Did he direct it against any individual FBI agent. - -Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't. I have one other recollection that possibly -should be put in regarding the conversation with Agent Hosty the first -time when Marina was present. We discussed many things, just as you -would having coffee in the afternoon with a visitor, and---- - -Mr. JENNER. Is this a discussion between you and Marina with the agent -present or not present. - -Mrs. PAINE. He was present. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. PAINE. Discussion between the three of us. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you. - -Mrs. PAINE. And I can't recall certainly who brought it up, but I -think Marina asked of Hosty what did he think of Castro, and he said, -"Well, he reads what is printed and from the view given in the American -newspapers of Castro's activities and intentions, he certainly didn't -like those intentions or actions." - -And Marina expressed an opinion subsequently, but contrary, that -perhaps he was not given much chance by the American press, or that the -press was not entirely fair to him. This I translated. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that the extent of it? Now have you exhausted your -recollection? - -Mrs. PAINE. I hope so. I have exhausted myself. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, do you have another question? - -Senator COOPER. Not on this subject. - -Mr. JENNER. I would like to return to your furnishing of the name and -the telephone number of Agent Hosty. In Commission Exhibit No. 18, -which is in evidence, which was Lee Oswald's diary--by the way, may I -hand the exhibit to the witness, Mr. Chairman? - -Senator COOPER. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. This is an address book. In any event it is in evidence as -Exhibit No. 18. Have you ever seen that booklet before? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Examine the outside of the booklet. Have you seen this? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have never seen this. - -Mr. JENNER. You have never seen that in Lee Oswald's possession? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have never seen it at all. - -Mr. JENNER. There is an entry as follows. Would you help me Mr. -Redlich. Would you read it please? - -Mr. REDLICH. "November 1, 1963 FBI agent James P. Hosty." - -Mrs. PAINE. Junior? - -Mr. REDLICH. Just above the word "Hosty" appears in parentheses "RI -1-1121," and underneath "James P. Hosty" appears "MU 8605." Underneath -that is "1114 Commerce Street Dallas." I would just like to correct -upon the record that the phone number originally read is "RI-11211." - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. What is that phone number? - -Mrs. PAINE. That phone number I recognize from my own use of it is to -the FBI in Dallas, my use since the assassination. - -Mr. JENNER. And the series of numbers rather than phone numbers, series -of numbers "MU 8605." - -Mrs. PAINE. Is not known to me. - -Mr. JENNER. What is the system of license plate numbering and lettering -employed in Texas? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am not acquainted with any particular system. They use -both letters and numbers. - -Mr. JENNER. I call your attention in connection with this entry that -it is dated November 1, 1963, and there does appear in it the license -number. - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Your recollection is firm that you didn't furnish it? - -Mrs. PAINE. May I point out also that he must have put this down after -November 1st, or at least that evening. He could not have written it -down with---- - -Mr. JENNER. It had to be after the fact as you furnished him the name. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And the agent's address. - -Mrs. PAINE. I would think he could as well have added--you don't want -my thinking--this number. - -Mr. JENNER. The reason I call that to your attention, Mrs. Paine, it -still does not stimulate your recollection. - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Any differently than before. You did not furnish the -license number. - -Mrs. PAINE. I certainly did not. To the best of my recollection I did -not put down the address either. - -Mr. JENNER. Now during the course of that interview of November 5th, -did you not say to Agent Hosty that Lee had visited at your home -November 2 and 3? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is entirely possible, likely. - -Mr. JENNER. And in this connection I am at liberty to report to you -that Agent Hosty's report is that you did advise him that Oswald had -visited at your home on November 2 and November 3. Does that serve to -refresh your recollection that you did so advise him? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that. - -Mr. JENNER. Now did you express an opinion to Agent Hosty that Oswald -was "an illogical person?" - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did, in answer to his question was this a mental -problem, as I have just described to you. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; that is all right. And did you also say to Agent Hosty -that Oswald himself had "Admitted being a Trotskyite Communist." - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I doubt seriously I said Trotskyite Communist. I would -think Leninist Communist, but I am not certain. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember making a remark of similar import? - -Mrs. PAINE. Reference to Trotsky surprises me. I have come since the -assassination to wonder if he had Trotskyite views. I have become -interested in what such views are since the assassination. - -Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection you don't recall making -that comment? - -Mrs. PAINE. I wouldn't think that I had the knowledge by which to make -such a statement even. - -Mr. JENNER. Now after this rationalization you have made, Mrs. Paine, -it is your recollection that you did not make such a comment? - -Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall. What was the second item that I told Hosty -he had been out on the second and third? I am just trying to clarify -here. - -Mr. JENNER. You had told him that Lee Oswald had been at your home -November 2 and 3, that you told him that Lee Oswald was an illogical -person? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is it. - -Mr. JENNER. And third, that you told him that Oswald had admitted being -a Trotskyite Communist. - -Mrs. PAINE. I may have said that. I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. You may have said the latter. - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall, that is right. - -Mr. JENNER. It is possible that you did say it? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is possible. I am surprised, however, by the word at -that point. - -Mr. JENNER. Now do you recall a telephone interview or call by Agent -Hosty on the 27th of January 1964? Perhaps I had better put it this -way to you. Do you recall subsequent telephone calls after the -assassination that you received from Agent Hosty, that you did receive -such telephone calls? - -Mrs. PAINE. I did, and visits also, at the house. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall he called you on the 27th of January 1964 and -that he inquired whether you had given Lee Oswald the license number of -his automobile when he had been at your home? You stated that you had -not. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -I would have thought that was a face to face interview but I don't -recall. - -Mr. JENNER. But you also told Agent Hosty on that occasion, "However, -this license number could have easily been observed by Marina Oswald -since her bedroom is located only a short distance from the street -where this car would have been parked." - -Mrs. PAINE. I doubt I said "easily." - -Mr. JENNER. But you could have said that the license number could have -been observed by Marina from her bedroom? - -Mrs. PAINE. My recollection of this, that it was not a telephone -interview. - -Mr. JENNER. Telephone or otherwise, there was an interview of you at -which you made that statement, that Marina could have seen the license? - -Mrs. PAINE. That Marina could have? - -Mr. JENNER. You do recall the incident. You don't recall whether it was -at your home or whether it was by telephone? - -Mrs. PAINE. I certainly recall talking with Agent Hosty and on at least -one occasion about how that license number got in Oswald's possession. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall a telephone interview by an FBI agent Lee, -Ivan D. Lee on the 28th of December 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. The name is not familiar to me. A great many FBI agents---- - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an incident in which you reported to an FBI -agent that you had just talked with a reporter from the Houston Post? - -Mrs. PAINE. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. You recall that? - -Mrs. PAINE. I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Now during the course of that interview, you made reference -to a newspaper reporter, did you not? - -Mrs. PAINE. I did. His name is Lonny Hudkins. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you say that the reporter whom you have now identified -had advised you that Lee Harvey Oswald's mother had been working for a -party in Forth Worth during September and October 1962 as a practical -nurse, and according to the reporter, Mrs. Oswald, mother of Lee Harvey -Oswald, advised this party during her employment that her son was doing -important anti-subversive work? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you please relate that incident so we will have the -facts insofar as you participated in them stated of record? - -Mrs. PAINE. I will. I would not have recalled the date, but I knew it -to be toward the end of 1963. I was called on the telephone by Lonny -Hudkins, whom I had never met, announced himself as from the Houston -Post, said there was a matter of some importance that he wanted to -talk with me about, could he come out to the house? And he then -indicated the nature of what he wanted to talk about to the extent very -accurately reported in what you have just read. I called the FBI really -to see if they could advise me in dealing with this man. It struck me -as a very unresponsible thing to print, and I wanted to be able to -convince Hudkins of that fact. I was hopeful that they might be willing -to make a flat denial to him, or in some way prevent the confusion that -would have been caused by his printing this. - -Now shall I go on to tell about the encounter which followed with Mr. -Hudkins, and something of that content? - -Mr. JENNER. I am a little at a loss. Why don't you start because I -can't anticipate. - -Mrs. PAINE. Whether it is important? - -Mr. JENNER. You haven't related this to me. Are these statements you -made to the FBI that you are about to relate? - -Mrs. PAINE. If they asked. I don't recall specifically. I certainly -recall that the content of the telephone conversation reported there is -accurate and is in sum the conversation that then followed with Lonny -Hudkins too, except that it doesn't say what I said in the situation. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you report to the FBI that Mr. Hudkins had said to -you that the primary purpose of seeing you was an effort to get some -confirmation if possible of the possibility Oswald was actually working -on behalf of the United States Government prior to the assassination? - -Mrs. PAINE. I was aware that was his purpose. - -Mr. JENNER. That you knew of no such situation, and ventured the -opinion to the reporter that the story was wholly unlikely, that you -could not imagine anyone having that much confidence in Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is accurate. I went on to say that Mrs. Oswald, -senior, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, could well have said to this -matron a full year back and more that her son was doing important -anti-subversive work for the government. This was 1962 he was talking -about, but that this was her opinion or what she may have wished to -have true. And I did not consider it terribly creditable, and said to -him "You don't think you have a story here, do you?" - -Mr. JENNER. You also recall---- - -Mrs. PAINE. May I put in another point here? - -Mr. JENNER. In connection with this subject matter? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. PAINE. I called and the man to whom I talked, I don't know if it -was Lee, or I think it was someone else who answered first, I am not -certain at all. - -Mr. JENNER. Odum? - -Mrs. PAINE. Odum? It certainly was not Odum. I know him. But someone -answered the phone and I told this to him, and perhaps it was Lee. He -said to me in response to my inquiring "What shall I do, here is this -man coming," he said "well you don't know anything of this nature do -you?" I said, "No". - -"Then anything you might have to say is sheer conjecture on the -subject?" - -"Yes." - -"Then you should certainly make that plain in talking with him." - -Mr. JENNER. Did you do so? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I certainly did. And I felt as though I really -shouldn't have bothered them. This was not of interest to them. But -then I was called back later by the FBI on the same subject. - -Mr. JENNER. And you reported that conversation, the subsequent call -back by the FBI? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. You have content of the first conversation I think -there, isn't that so, or it might have been? - -Mr. JENNER. There are a series, Mrs. Paine, that run in this order. The -first was on December 28, 1963. The conversation occurred between you -and an Agent Lee, and it was a telephone interview? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I have asked you about that, and I have read from the -report and you have affirmed that you so reported to the agent. And -on the next day, December 29, 1963, you had a telephone conversation, -whether you called or whether the agent called, with Kenneth C. Howe. - -Mrs. PAINE. What is his name? - -Mr. JENNER. Kenneth C. Howe, on this same subject. I have questioned -you about that, and I have read from the report, and you have affirmed -as to that. Then on January 3, 1964, this apparently was an interview -at your home by Agent Odum? Do you recall that? - -Mrs. PAINE. Agent Odum has been out a great deal. - -Mr. JENNER. In which you say, did you not, that this reporter Hudkins -of the Houston Post newspaper in his contact with you on the previous -Saturday, December 28 had stated that the FBI was foolish to deny that -Agent Joseph Hosty, being a reference to the FBI agent we have been -talking about today, had tried to develop Lee Harvey Oswald as an -informant. You stated you had made no comment one way or the other to -Hudkins regarding this remark, and furthermore that you knew that---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Would you please repeat that, that I stated? - -Mr. JENNER. I will read it all to you then. You advised that Lonny -Hudkins, the reporter of the Houston Post in his contact that he had -with you on the previous Saturday, December 28, 1963, had stated to you -that the FBI was foolish to deny that Agent Hosty had tried to develop -Lee Harvey Oswald as an informant. Did you make that statement? - -Mrs. PAINE. Not in just those terms. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you make the further statement that you made no comment -one way or the other to Hudkins regarding this remark of his to you? In -order to get this in the proper posture, Mrs. Paine---- - -Senator COOPER. Do you understand the question? - -Mrs. PAINE. I understand what is said, but it doesn't check strictly -with my recollection, that is the confusion. - -Mr. JENNER. What the agent is reporting is your report of what Lonny -Hudkins had said to you, and your report to the agent of your response -to what Lonny Hudkins had said to you. Do we have it now in the proper -posture? - -Mrs. PAINE. This is by no means an accurate description of the -conversation or my response. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't have to accept this report, of course, Mrs. -Paine. Tell us what occurred in that interview? - -Mrs. PAINE. All right. - -Mr. JENNER. What you said and what Agent Odum said to you. - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I don't recall that so well. I was going to tell you -what I said to Hudkins. I do recall this, and it may be the foundation -for what appears in your report there. I made no comment on Mr. Hudkins -saying that there was a Joe Hosty, and that this agent had been in -contact with Oswald. I observed that Hudkins had inaccurate information. - -Mr. JENNER. Didn't you tell the agent what this reporter had said to -you that was inaccurate, to wit, that the reporter had stated to you -that the FBI was foolish to deny that Agent Hosty had tried to develop -Lee Harvey Oswald as an informant? - -Mrs. PAINE. What is totally inaccurate is the following, that implies -that I made no comment to Hudkins regarding such a remark. - -Mr. JENNER. No please, that has not been suggested. I am trying to take -this chronologically. Did you first report to the agent that Hudkins -had said to you that the FBI was foolish to deny that Agent Joseph -Hosty had tried to develop Lee Harvey Oswald as an informant. - -Mrs. PAINE. Certainly what Hudkins said was of this nature. - -Mr. JENNER. And you so reported to the agent? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Then did you make the further remark, which is what I think -you are trying to say, that you made no comment one way or the other to -Hudkins when he made that remark, his remark to you? - -Mrs. PAINE. I made a great deal of comment and I will say what those -comments were. - -Mr. JENNER. You did to the reporter. - -Mrs. PAINE. To the reporter, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Please say what you said, and did you report this to the -FBI, Mr. Odum? - -Mrs. PAINE. Inadequately clearly, judging from the---- - -Mr. JENNER. Why don't you do it this way? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes I reported it. - -Mr. JENNER. Let us have first what you said to the FBI agent on the -subject? - -Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall what I said to the FBI agent. It is much -easier for me to recall what I said to Hudkins. But I do recall clearly -that I said to the FBI agent "I made no correction of his inaccuracies -about Hosty's name." This is where I made no comment. - -Mr. JENNER. I am at a loss now. - -Mrs. PAINE. Joe is not his name. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. His name is James? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you indicate to the agent that you had raised an issue -with the reporter? - -Mrs. PAINE. He also spelled it with an "i", Hudkins. - -Mr. JENNER. With respect to the other phase, that is to what the -reporter had said to you. - -Mrs. PAINE. I would guess that I reported to Mr. Odum other things -about---- - -Mr. JENNER. Present recollections Mrs. Paine. - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall the particular conversation with Mr. Odum at -all. I talked with him a great deal. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you deny this state to Mr. Hudkins, the reporter? - -Mrs. PAINE. To Mr. Hudkins? - -Mr. JENNER. Did you say to him that you did not agree with his -statement? - -Mrs. PAINE. To Mr. Hudkins I said many things, which I hoped would -convince him that he had no story, that his information was very shaky, -that Oswald was not in my view a person that would have been hired by -the FBI or by Russia. I said to him "You are the other side of the -coin from a Mr. Guy Richards of the New York Journal-American who is -certain that Oswald was a paid spy for the Soviet Union, and just as -inaccurate," and coming to, in my opinion, and of course I made it -clear this was my opinion, to conclusions just as wrong. - -Mr. JENNER. That is, it was your opinion that Lee Oswald was neither a -Russian agent nor an agent of any agency of the United States? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. I said indeed to Mr. Hudkins, I had said to -Mr. Richards that if the so-called great Soviet conspiracy has to rest -for its help upon such inadequate people as Lee Oswald, there is no -hope of their achieving their aims. I said I simply cannot believe that -the FBI would find it necessary to employ such a shaky and inadequate -person. - -Mr. JENNER. And is that still your view? - -Mrs. PAINE. Indeed it is. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you also say to Mr. Odum on that occasion that you knew -that Agent Hosty had not interviewed Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. Probably. - -Senator COOPER. Did you read the statements after they had been written? - -Mrs. PAINE. What statements? - -Senator COOPER. The statements of the FBI. - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no; I have never. - -Senator COOPER. You have never seen them? - -Mrs. PAINE. Never seen anything of it. I knew they must write -something, but I have never seen any of these statements. - -Senator COOPER. You never asked them to show you the statements? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever make a statement to anybody that you can -recall that Lee Harvey Oswald in your opinion was doing underground -work? - -Mrs. PAINE. That has never been my opinion. I would be absolutely -certain that he never---- - -Mr. JENNER. Please, did you say it? - -Mrs. PAINE. And I would be absolutely certain that I never said such a -thing. - -Mr. JENNER. To anybody, including when I say anybody, Mrs. Dorothy -Gravitis? - -Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely certain. Never said to anyone that I thought Lee -was doing undercover work. - -Senator COOPER. What is that name? - -Mr. JENNER. Gravitis, G-r-a-v-i-t-i-s. - -Senator COOPER. Do you know this person? - -Mrs. PAINE. She is my Russian tutor in Dallas. - -Senator COOPER. What? - -Mrs. PAINE. Russian tutor and the mother-in-law of the translator that -was at the police station. - -Mr. JENNER. To conclude this series---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Would you clarify for me, someone is of the opinion that I -thought that Oswald was an undercover agent for whom? - -Mr. JENNER. That you said so. - -Mrs. PAINE. For whom? - -Mr. JENNER. For the Russian government. - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh. I have certainly never said anything of the sort. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever say to anybody including Mrs. Gravitis that -you thought Lee Harvey Oswald was a Communist? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, it is possible I said that. I thought he considered -himself a Communist by ideology, certainly a Marxist. He himself always -corrected anyone who called him a Communist and said he was a Marxist. - -Mr. JENNER. When you use the term communist do you think of a person as -a member of the Communist Party or a native of Russia? - -Mrs. PAINE. I seldom use the term at all, but I would confine it -to people who were members or considered themselves in support of -Communist ideology. - -Mr. JENNER. A person in your mind may be a Communist, and yet not a -member of the Communist Party, even in Russia? - -Mrs. PAINE. I might use the word in that loose way. - -Mr. JENNER. The last of these interviews was on, may I suggest, and if -not would you correct me, January 27, 1964, by Agent Wiehl, and Agent -Hosty. It appears, and would you please correct me if I am wrong, to -have been an interview in your home at the very tail end of January -1964? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have no specific recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an interview in which you reported to the -FBI, these two agents, that agent Hosty--no, that you gave Lee Harvey -Oswald the name of agent James P. Hosty together with the Dallas FBI -telephone number which you had obtained on November 1, 1963, that you -did not give him the license number of the automobile driven by agent -Hosty, however, and that, as I have asked you before, the license -number could have been observed by Marina Oswald on November 1? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection of the occurrence. - -Mr. JENNER. And it could have been observed on November 5th? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Senator COOPER. Did you yourself see the license plate? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Senator COOPER. You don't know the numbers or letters that were on the -license plate? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you testified yesterday and you testified again -today, this morning, that you had no recollection of Lee Oswald having -gone into the garage of your home on Thursday, November 21. Do you -recall that testimony? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, that I did not see him there or see him go through -the door to the garage. I was clear in my own mind that it was he who -had left the light on, and I tried to describe that. - -Mr. JENNER. It may have been a possibility and you were inferring from -that that he was in the garage. - -Mrs. PAINE. I definitely infer that. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you interviewed by the FBI agents Hosty and Abernathy -on the 23d of November 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And in the course of that interview, do you recall having -stated to these agents that on the evening of November 21, Lee Oswald -went out to the garage of your home, where he had many of his personal -effects stored, and spent considerable time, apparently rearranging and -handling his personal effects. - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall saying exactly that. - -Mr. JENNER. Could you have said that to the agents. - -Mrs. PAINE. I could have said as far as spending considerable time. - -Mr. JENNER. Now that your recollection is possibly further refreshed, -please tell us what you did say to the agents as you now recall? - -Mrs. PAINE. You have refreshed nothing. You have got all there was of -my recollection in previous testimony. - -Mr. JENNER. Based on the fundamentals, the specifics which you have -given us yesterday and today, you did report to the FBI on the 23d of -November in the interview to which I have called your attention that on -the evening of the 21st Oswald went out to the garage where he had many -of his personal effects stored, and spent considerable time apparently -rearranging and handling his personal effects. - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall ever saying "apparently rearranging and -handling." - -Mr. JENNER. Other than the word "apparently" that is a reasonable -summary of what you did say to the FBI agents, is it? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. I think my best recollection is as I have -given it to you in the testimony, was it this morning, that I certainly -was of the opinion that he had been out there. I had been busy for some -time with my children, and I could easily, and of course that was the -day after, and this several months after, have been of the opinion, -been informed as to how long he had been out there, but my recollection -now doesn't give me any length of time. - -Mr. JENNER. You have heretofore given us yesterday and today your very -best recollection after full reflection on all the course of events. - -Mrs. PAINE. I certainly have. - -Mr. JENNER. I notice that during the course of the interview, and -perhaps you will recall, that you did call attention of the FBI, these -two agents, to the Mexico City letter about which you have testified, -is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I gave it to them. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, that is all I intend to cover with respect to -the FBI. Do you have any questions? We will go on to another subject. - -Senator COOPER. This would be going back into the subject on which you -have already testified, but with reference to this last statement, -this letter, where it is reported, you said, Lee Oswald did go into -the garage and spend some time, did you make a statement to the FBI -after the agents had been in the garage, or the police had been in the -garage, and had found the blanket with nothing in it. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, certainly, this was the next day that Hosty was out -with Abernathy. - -Senator COOPER. And you did remember of course that you found the light -on? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Senator COOPER. You did not expect it to be on in the garage? Do you -think it is correct then that at the time you made this statement, -recognizing the importance of the garage, that you did say at that time -that he had been in the garage on the night before the President was -assassinated? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I think I said that. - -Senator COOPER. You think you made that statement? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think I made that statement. This was certainly my -impression. - -Mr. JENNER. You have already related the arrival of your husband, -Michael Paine, at your home in mid-afternoon of the day of the -assassination? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now would you please tell me exactly to the best of your -recollection the words of your husband as he walked in the door? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall his saying anything. - -Mr. JENNER. Now his words if any with respect to why he had come. - -Mrs. PAINE. I asked him before he volunteered. I said something to the -effect of "how did you know to come?" - -Mr. JENNER. And what did he say? - -Mrs. PAINE. He said he had heard on the radio at work that Lee Oswald -was in custody, and came immediately to the house. - -Mr. JENNER. And that is what you recall he said? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say, and I quote: "I heard where the President was -shot, and I came right over to see if I could be of any help to you." - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he also say to you that he "Just walked off the job." - -Mrs. PAINE. No. He said he had come from work. I might interject here -one recollection if you want it. - -Mr. JENNER. Please. - -Mrs. PAINE. Of Michael having telephoned to me after the assassination. -He wanted to know if I had heard. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he call you before he arrived at your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. He called. He knew about the assassination. He had been -told by a waitress at lunchtime. I don't know whether he knew any -further details, whether he knew from whence the shots had been fired, -but he knew immediately that I would want to know, and called simply to -find out if I knew, and of course I did, and we didn't converse about -it, but I felt the difference between him and my immediate neighbor to -whom I have already referred, Michael was as struck and grieved as I -was, and we shared this over the telephone. - -Mr. JENNER. And his appearance in mid-afternoon, as you have related, -was, according to what he said activated as you have related, that he -had heard that Lee Oswald was now involved. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. How did you and Marina look at the parade, that is as the -motorcade went along were you and Marina---- - -Mrs. PAINE. This was not shown on television. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, it wasn't? - -Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection they had cameras at the -convention center, whatever it was, that the President was coming to -for dinner, and for his talk. - -Mr. JENNER. And was the motorcade being described, broadcast by radio? - -Mrs. PAINE. The motorcade was being described. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you and Marina listening to that? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, it was coming through the television set, but it -wasn't being shown. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you listening? - -Mrs. PAINE. We were. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she show an interest in this? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And it being broadcast in English, I assume you were doing -some interpreting for her? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Most of this has been covered, Senator Cooper, and I am -getting through pages fortunately that we don't have to go over again. - -Senator COOPER. After you knew that the President was dead, and Marina -knew, do you know, from that time on, whether she ever went into her -room, left you and went into her room? - -Mrs. PAINE. I would think it highly likely that she did. The -announcement that the President was actually dead came, oh, I think -around 1:30 or close to 2. I already related that my little girl wept -and fell asleep on the sofa. This was a time therefore that Marina -would have been putting Junie to bed in the bedroom. - -Senator COOPER. Between the time that you heard the President had been -shot and the news came that he died, did she ever leave you and go into -her room, do you remember? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't remember specifically, but you must understand that -the little baby was already born. She would have had many occasions, -needs to go into the room. - -Senator COOPER. Do you know whether she went into the garage? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't know. - -Senator COOPER. What? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't know whether she went into the garage. - -Mr. JENNER. You have no impressions in that respect? - -Mrs. PAINE. None. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an incident involving Lee Oswald's wedding -ring? - -Mrs. PAINE. I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you relate that, please? - -Mrs. PAINE. One or two FBI agents came to my home, I think Odum was -one of them, and said that Marina had inquired after and wanted Lee's -wedding ring, and he asked me if I had any idea where to look for -it. I said I'll look first in the little tea cup that is from her -grandmother, and on top of the chest of drawers in the bedroom where -she had stayed. I looked and it was there. - -Mr. JENNER. Calling on your recollection of this man, was he in the -habit of wearing his wedding ring? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did this strike you as unusual that the wedding ring should -be back in this cup on the dresser in their room? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, quite. - -Mr. JENNER. Elaborate as to why it struck you as unusual? - -Mrs. PAINE. I do not wear my wedding ring. Marina has on several -occasions said to me she considers that bad luck, not a good thing to -do. - -I would suspect that she would certainly have wanted Lee to wear his -wedding ring, and encouraged him to do it. - -Mr. JENNER. In face of the fact that he regularly wore his wedding -ring, yet on this occasion, that is being home the evening before, you -received this call, you went to the bedroom and you found the wedding -ring. Did it occur to you that that might have been in the nature of a -leave-taking of some kind by Lee Oswald, leaving his wedding ring for -Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. It occurred to me that that might have been a form of -thinking ahead. I had no way of knowing whether or not Marina had known -that he left it. I was not instructed where to look for it. - -Mr. JENNER. You were not? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. But Marina did say to you "would you look for Lee's wedding -ring?" - -Mrs. PAINE. No, Odum did. - -Mr. JENNER. Odum did. - -Mrs. PAINE. And of course clearly they would know whether he had it. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, I see. It was not Marina. It was one of the FBI -agents. And it is your clear recollection that he was in the habit of -wearing that wedding ring all the time. Do you ever recall an occasion -when he left the wedding ring at home? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. To your knowledge? - -Mrs. PAINE. To my knowledge, no. - -Mr. JENNER. When you obtained the wedding ring did you examine it? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. I mean did you look inside to see if there was an -inscription on it or were you curious about that? - -Mrs. PAINE. I gave it to Mr. Odum who was with me in the room. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Odum accompanied you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Went with me to the bedroom. I am pretty sure he was the -one. - -Senator COOPER. The morning of the day that the President was killed, -did Mrs. Oswald, after she got up, say anything to you about any -unusual characteristics of Lee Oswald's taking leave of her that -morning? - -Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely none. - -Senator COOPER. Did she talk about him leaving? Did she tell you -anything at all about what happened when he did get up? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have a recollection that must be from her that she woke -enough to feed the baby, to nurse the baby in the morning, when he -was getting up to go, but she then went back to sleep after that, and -she must have told me that. But that is all I know, that she had been -awake, and nursed the baby early in the morning, and then went back to -sleep. - -Senator COOPER. And Lee Oswald went back to sleep? - -Mrs. PAINE. No, no, Marina went back to sleep. - -Senator COOPER. Oh, Marina went back to sleep. Was he leaving then? - -Mrs. PAINE. I judge so. - -Senator COOPER. What? - -Mrs. PAINE. I judge so. - -Senator COOPER. But I mean did she say anything else about him? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing about his leaving at all. - -Mr. JENNER. What were his habits with respect to breakfast? For example -on the Monday mornings of the weekends which he visited your home, did -he prepare his own, and if so, what kind of a breakfast did he prepare? - -Mrs. PAINE. I would say his habit was to have a cup of instant coffee -only. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have a clear recollection that on the morning of -the 21st when you went into the kitchen---- - -Mrs. PAINE. The 22d. - -Mr. JENNER. The 22d, I am sorry, the 22d you saw a plastic coffee cup -or tea cup, and you looked at it and you could see the remains of -somebody having prepared instant coffee? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And that is clear in your mind? - -Mrs. PAINE. Perfectly clear. I looked especially for traces of Lee -having been up, since I wondered if he might be still sleeping, having -overslept. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he in the habit on these weekends of making himself a -sandwich which he would take with him? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; there is no such habit. Perhaps once Marina prepared -something for him to take with him, I think more for him to put in his -room, partly for lunch, partly for him to have at his room in town and -use the refrigerator. - -Mr. JENNER. But in any event, on the morning of the 22d you saw no -evidence of there having been an attempt by anybody to prepare? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Sandwiches for lunch or to take anything else in the way of -food from your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. I saw no evidence, and I saw nothing that was missing. - -Mr. JENNER. At any time during all the time you knew the Oswalds, up to -and including November 22, was any mention ever made of any attempt on -the life of Richard Nixon? - -Mrs. PAINE. None. - -Mr. JENNER. Just that subject matter, was it ever mentioned? - -Mrs. PAINE. Never. - -Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection did they ever discuss -Richard Nixon as a person? - -Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall Richard Nixon coming into the conversation -at any time. - -Mr. JENNER. And to the present day--well, I want to include the time -that you spoke here a couple weeks ago with Marina, let us say up to -and including that day had there ever been any discussion with you by -Marina of the possibility of Lee Oswald contemplating making an attack -upon the person of Richard Nixon? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; no such discussion. - -Mr. JENNER. Did anyone else ever talk to you about that up to that -time, talk to you on that subject? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, after it was rumored in the paper, someone asked me -if I thought there was anything to it but that is something else. - -Mr. JENNER. When you say recently some rumor to that effect that is -what you are talking about? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Up to that time? - -Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely none. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it from your testimony this morning that you have -seen and talked with Robert Oswald but once? - -Mrs. PAINE. And you recall also when he came to pick up her things? - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. Twice. - -Mr. JENNER. So you saw him once for the first time in the city police -station? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. You talked with him on that occasion. You saw him on one -occasion when not so long after that he came out to pick up her things? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And had some conversation with him then. Have there ever -been any other occasions that you have had a conversation with him -directly or by telephone? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. I made one attempt to have such a conversation and -drove out to his home in Denton and talked with his wife. - -Mr. JENNER. And what occurred then? When was that? - -Mrs. PAINE. Possibly in January. - -Mr. JENNER. Of 1964? - -Mrs. PAINE. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Why did you go out there? - -Mrs. PAINE. I had been writing letters to Marina and receiving no -reply, and I wanted to go and talk with both Robert and his wife -to inquire what was the best way to be a friend to Marina in this -situation, whether it was better to write letters or better not to, -whether she wanted to hear from me or whether she didn't, and knowing -that they had seen her, I felt they might be able to help me with this. - -I was told by Mrs. Robert Oswald that Robert had a bad cold, and she -didn't want to expose my children who were with me, and she and I -talked through the screen, and I explained what I wanted. But I didn't -feel helped by the visit. - -Mr. JENNER. You did not. - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you feel that there was a lack of cordiality? - -Mrs. PAINE. She apologized for not having me in, and she was friendly -and said, "what nice children you have," but it is somewhat hard to -communicate through a screen. - -Mr. JENNER. That was the only difficulty that you observed, the -difficulty in talking through the screen door, the screen of the door? - -Mrs. PAINE. I felt that she could have asked me whether I cared if my -children were exposed. I felt that she preferred for me not to come in. - -Senator COOPER. Was Marina staying with them? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe so. I am pretty certain she was at that -time at the Martin's home. - -Senator COOPER. Did you get any impression in your talk with Mrs. -Robert Oswald that they were not interested in finding out the -information that you were asking for? - -Mrs. PAINE. She offered the opinion that she didn't think there was any -particular point to writing letters at this time, but she offered no -reason. - -Mr. JENNER. By the way, do you have copies of those letters, Mrs. Paine? - -Mrs. PAINE. At home. - -Mr. JENNER. I know now that I will be to see you on Monday. - -Mrs. PAINE. Monday? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. Are you going to be home on Monday? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am flying Monday morning. Shall we go together? I am not -leaving until Monday morning. - -Mr. JENNER. I am going down Sunday night. So may I see those letters on -that occasion? - -Mrs. PAINE. As soon as I get home. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough---- - -Mrs. PAINE. I will have to translate them. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. PAINE. That will take a while. - -Mr. JENNER. With respect to the curtain-rod package, would you be good -enough to leave it intact, don't touch it, just leave it where it is -without touching it at all. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now you have related to us the Texas School Book Depository -employment, the ability to operate an automobile. I am going to read -a list of names to you, and you stop me every time I read a name that -is familiar to you. There are some of the Russian emigre group in and -around Dallas. Some of them may not be Russian emigre group people, but -some of the members of the staff want these particular persons covered. - -George Bouhe. - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't know him. - -Mr. JENNER. I want also your response that you didn't hear these names -discussed by either Marina or Lee. - -Mrs. PAINE. I have never heard that name discussed by Marina or Lee -Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray. - -Mrs. PAINE. I did not hear that name discussed by either of them. I -have since learned from Mrs. Ford that it was to Mrs. Ray's home that -Marina went from Mrs. Ford's home in the fall of 1962. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray. - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. I won't ask you--well, I have Mr. and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt -on my list. - -You have already testified about them. - -Mrs. PAINE. I have met them once; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Only on that one occasion? - -Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection; that is right. - -Mr. JENNER. John and Elena Hall? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't know them. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear them discussed by either Marina or Lee? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have never at any time heard that name. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -I think I pronounce this correctly, Tatiana Biggers? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am not familiar with that name, and I never heard it. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Teofil Meller? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am not familiar with that name. - -Mr. JENNER. Lydia Dymitruk? - -Mrs. PAINE. I met a Lydia who was working as a clerk at a grocery store -in Irving, and I had met Marina previously. I am not certain of her -last name. I am certain that Marina told me not to learn Russian from -her, it was not grammatical. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -By the way, did Marina go out by herself occasionally and shop? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Daniel F. Sullivan? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't know that name. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Alan A. Jackson III? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't know that name. - -Mr. JENNER. Peter Gregory? - -Mrs. PAINE. I know that name; yes. That name was mentioned by, to the -best of my recollection first in my presence by, Marguerite Oswald, who -told us that she had just started at the police when I first met her---- - -Mr. JENNER. I would like that. The first time there came to your -attention and your consciousness the name Peter Gregory was when -Marguerite Oswald mentioned it at the police station on the 22d of -November 1963, is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; because she had just begun a course of study with him -in order to try to learn the Russian language at the public library. - -Mr. JENNER. She so said? - -Mrs. PAINE. She so said. I don't recall having heard the name -previously. Although I am not certain. - -Mr. JENNER. Paul Gregory. - -Mrs. PAINE. I would be absolutely certain I had never heard the name -from either of the Oswalds. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Is that likewise true of Paul Gregory who is the -son I may tell you of Peter Gregory? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am not familiar with that name. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs., I know you are familiar with this name, Mr. -and Mrs. Declan Ford. When did you first hear of the name of those -people with respect to November 22, 1963, before or after or on that -very day? - -Mrs. PAINE. Mrs. Ford was mentioned to me by name by Marina in the fall -of 1963 before the time of the assassination. Marina described to me a -party at Mrs. Ford's home, and described the decor of the house and how -much she admired Mrs. Ford's tastes, and said that Mrs. Ford had done -most of the decorating herself. - -Let me just say Marina also told me she had stayed at someone's home in -the fall of 1962, but she did not tell me the name of Mrs. Ford in that -connection. It came up in this other connection. It is only since the -assassination that I learned she had stayed briefly at Mrs. Ford's. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -That is the extent of your information with respect to the Fords at -least up to November 22? - -Mrs. PAINE. Up to the time of the assassination that is the extent of -it. - -Mr. JENNER. I wish to be certain of this and I don't recall whether I -asked you and, therefore, I will risk repetition. - -Did Marina and Lee, with you or even without you, visit any people, to -your knowledge, while Marina was living with you in the fall of 1963, -just social visit, go out and make a social visit? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. I meant to include whether either together as a couple or -separately. - -Mrs. PAINE. I recall no such visit. - -Mr. JENNER. I think your testimony was when Lee Oswald came home on the -weekends, from what you have described he remained on the premises? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. With the possible exception of one instance when he went -off and bought some groceries or am I wrong about that exception? - -Mrs. PAINE. He went with my children to buy some popsicles while I was -teaching a student, so I was not at home that time. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -We have a report, Mrs. Paine, and you might help us with it on this -subject, of a barber in your community, who recounts to the FBI that -in his opinion Lee Harvey Oswald or what he thinks a gentleman who was -that man, came to his shop reasonably regularly and had a haircut on -Saturday, on Saturdays, and accompanying him was what he judged to be a -14-year-old boy. Do you recall Lee Oswald ever obtaining a haircut over -any weekend while he was at your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection, subject to his being off -the premises while you were away shopping, it is your present firm -recollection he never left the premises once he arrived, save this one -instance that you knew of when he went to get popsicles? - -Mrs. PAINE. Of course, I was away during that instance. - -Mr. JENNER. You were? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. But you anticipated? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Now, the morning of the 11th of November I was not -home from something before 9 o'clock until about 2 that afternoon. I -don't know what transpired during that time. - -Mr. JENNER. Were there other occasions when you were off ministering to -your children, that is taking them to the dentist or something of that -nature, on a Saturday or to church on Sunday or to the local park on -Sunday, that Lee Oswald may have been, that is periods of time when you -would not have known whether he was on or off your premises? - -Mrs. PAINE. I can think only of grocery shopping which would have been -an hour to an hour and a half period, and the two times that I can -recall in the Saturday afternoon, on a Saturday afternoon that I went -to Dallas to teach one Russian student a lesson. I can't think of any -other spaces of time, hours that I was away. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, this gentleman also says---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Except the one I have just mentioned, of course, the one of -November 11. - -Mr. JENNER. He also says that the man he thinks was Lee Harvey Oswald -not only regularly came to his shop on Friday evenings or Saturday -mornings for a haircut, but that he occasionally drove a station wagon. - -Do you know of any occasion to your certain knowledge that Lee drove -your station wagon other than the one occasion you have already related? - -Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely none. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Lee Oswald subscribed to any newspapers? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. What newspapers, excuse me, did he or did he not subscribe? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. They came to my door. They sat around the house until -the weekend when he arrived. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us what newspapers those were? - -Mrs. PAINE. I noticed a paper which I was told was from Minsk. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it in Russian? - -Mrs. PAINE. In Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see it in the sense of glancing at it out of -idle curiosity if nothing else? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And it was in Russian? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there something about it that indicated to you that it -came from Minsk? - -Mrs. PAINE. Marina told me. - -Mr. JENNER. She told you. Was it a political tract or was it a -newspaper as we understand newspapers? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was a newspaper as Russians understand newspapers which -makes it a borderline political tract. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -In addition to that Russian newspaper from Minsk was there anything---- - -Mrs. PAINE. There was a Russian magazine, small, Reader's Digest size. - -Mr. JENNER. The witness is indicating in her hands about a page size of -about nine by---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Six. - -Mr. JENNER. Nine by six. - -Is that about the size? - -Mrs. PAINE. Something like that, called the Agitator, the name written -in Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. The word "Agitator" was written in Russian, printed in -Russian? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. On the face or cover page of this document, is that true? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was the entire document in Russian? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to look at it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Just the outside. - -Mr. JENNER. Your curiosity or intellectual interest never went beyond -reading any portion of one of the issues? - -Mrs. PAINE. It never did. - -Mr. JENNER. But you do recall definitely the title page? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Any others? - -Mrs. PAINE. Crocodile, which is a Russian satirical humor magazine. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that in Russian? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to read it and to observe Russian -humor? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. It was not political in character? - -Mrs. PAINE. Being satirical, of course, it made political reference but -it was not particularly political in nature. - -Mr. JENNER. It was not designed as a political tract, put it that way. - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Anything else? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The Russian magazine Ogonok. - -Mr. JENNER. What does that mean in Russian? - -Mrs. PAINE. It means "bonfire" or "fire". - -Mr. JENNER. Was that printed in Russian? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have--did your curiosity lead you to read any -portion of it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Or it may be--let's see, I am not certain in my -translation, but go ahead with the question. - -Mr. JENNER. You are not certain of your translation of the word? - -Mrs. PAINE. Of that single word? - -Mr. JENNER. Of the title of this document about which you are now -speaking? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. But you think it means what you said it meant? - -Mrs. PAINE. It has something to do with fire; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you read any portion of any of those issues? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. And what was the nature of it with respect to whether it -was political or otherwise? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was not political. - -Mr. JENNER. What was its nature? - -Mrs. PAINE. Narrative, special articles of interest to the general -population. Marina enjoyed reading this one. - -Mr. JENNER. She enjoyed it? - -Mrs. PAINE. She expressed herself as disliking the Agitator. She -interpreted some of the things in Crocodile for me which I had -difficulty understanding. - -Mr. JENNER. Anything else? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. He subscribed to Time magazine. - -Mr. JENNER. Here in America? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And did he read it when he come out on weekends? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did. He read that first. - -Mr. JENNER. Sat down and read that first. - -Did he take the issue away with him when he left every week? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is my impression he did. - -Mr. JENNER. Are there any others? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. He subscribed to the Militant. - -Mr. JENNER. Militant. What is the Militant? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is a paper in English, newspaper style and I would say -these next two---- - -Mr. JENNER. Published by whom? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. Socialist Worker's Party? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have been so told. - -Mr. JENNER. You just don't know? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. But was it a political tract? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't know that. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you read it? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Why didn't you? - -Mrs. PAINE. I wasn't interested. - -Mr. JENNER. Because of the nature of the document? - -Mrs. PAINE. If I had had time to do much reading, I might have taken -an interest but I had no time, insufficient time to do the reading I -really wanted to do. He also subscribed to the Worker. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that the publication of the Communist Party USA? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have been told so. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you read that? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you observe--have you now concluded the list of -newspapers, periodicals or magazines to which he was a subscriber? - -Mrs. PAINE. I believe so. I might say that my awareness of his -subscribing to these last two, the Militant and the Worker, came after -the assassination. There was mail awaiting for him for that weekend -which he did not pick up on the 21st, and after the assassination, -indeed, after Saturday evening, the 23d, when it was announced on -television that they had a photograph of Lee Oswald holding two papers. -I looked at this pile of mail waiting for him which consisted of these -two newspapers, the Militant and the Worker, and I threw them away. - -Mr. JENNER. You threw them away? - -Mrs. PAINE. Without opening them. - -Mr. JENNER. Why did you throw them away? - -Mrs. PAINE. I was pleased to throw away anything I could. I just didn't -want it. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, my question or query, and I think expression of -surprise, is activated by what I am about to ask you as to whether you -might call that to the attention of the FBI? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I am sure they knew. - -Mr. JENNER. How are you sure they knew? - -Mrs. PAINE. Because mail stopped coming on the spot, nothing came after -the assassination, I was certain it was still coming to some place. - -Mr. JENNER. But this was almost instantaneously after you heard a -broadcast that a photograph of him had been found in which he had been -holding up the Militant. - -But you immediately went to see if he had that mail and there was a -copy of the Militant and you threw it away? - -Mrs. PAINE. Why not? - -Mr. JENNER. Well, it occurred to me you might have called the FBI's -attention to the fact that it had come to the house. But you didn't in -any event? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you report it to the FBI in any of these interviews you -had subsequently with them, or did they ask? It is two questions, if -you will answer both. - -Mrs. PAINE. If so, it was quite recently. - -Mr. JENNER. When did the other papers begin to arrive? Did I interrupt -you before you had a chance to complete your answer to my question? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. The papers different from the Worker and the Militant, when -did they begin to arrive at your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, they began to arrive, I would say, some time after -October 4th. That is, of course, my judgment. That is a rationalization. - -Mr. JENNER. These magazines and newspapers you have recounted first -appeared at your home after Lee Oswald came to Dallas and became -employed or came to Dallas to live at your house and to seek employment? - -Mrs. PAINE. He came to Dallas, he lived in Dallas, but he used my house. - -Mr. JENNER. He came to your house? - -Mrs. PAINE. As a residence, mailing address. Never asked to and I never -complained but I noticed, of course, that he was using it as a mailing -address. - -Mr. JENNER. Up to that time and even though Marina was living with you -nothing of that nature came to your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. What? - -Mr. JENNER. Prior to the time that Lee arrived at your home on or about -or on the 4th of October 1963, none of these newspapers or periodicals -had come to your home, is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he a reader of the local newspaper? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You were a subscriber to what? - -Mrs. PAINE. To the Irving newspaper and the Sunday Dallas Morning News. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he read both of those? - -Mrs. PAINE. He was very interested in seeing the Sunday paper edition -especially. He read both, to the best of my recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. He also read the daily papers? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, he wasn't there daily. - -Mr. JENNER. When he was there he read it? - -Mrs. PAINE. The Irving paper didn't come out on Saturday, so it was -only the Sunday papers. - -Mr. JENNER. But there were occasions when you had issues, the Friday -issue around or Thursday issue around your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall his being interested in back issues. - -Mr. JENNER. Are there any letters and communications between you and -Marina or between you and Lee Oswald to which you have not called my -attention? - -Mrs. PAINE. There never were any letters of any sort between me and Lee -Oswald except unless you could include this English portion to which I -have already called your attention in a letter to Marina. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. The only other letters--I have called your attention to all -such letters, but I will have to wait until you are in Dallas to see -the letters written since the assassination to Marina. - -Mr. JENNER. Then I will ask you this question. - -You produced for my inspection all of these letters other than the ones -that I will see when I am in Dallas which you have identified as having -been written subsequent to, subsequently to, November 22, 1963, is that -correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right, you have all the correspondence. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. PAINE. Wait, we did omit one letter which you have from Marina. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; I have it here. - -Mrs. PAINE. You have no gaps that I could supply you. - -Mr. JENNER. I appreciate the fact I have that letter which we found not -relevant and, therefore, I did not tender it. You have tendered to me -everything other than those I will see when I reach Dallas. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recall having a conversation with Dr. Froelich -Rainey---- - -Senator COOPER. May I ask, just a moment, the letter which has not been -tendered and which was said not to be relevant---- - -Mrs. PAINE. You have a copy of it. - -Senator COOPER. To whom was that letter addressed? - -Mr. JENNER. That is addressed to Marina. - -Senator COOPER. May I ask, does counsel have a copy of that letter? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; I have a copy of the letter and I have preserved the -original and I also have a typewritten copy. - -Senator COOPER. It has not been offered as part of evidence? - -Mr. JENNER. It has not been offered because it is irrelevant to -anything referred to here and it also has a personal remark in it that -Mrs. Paine would prefer not to have spread on the record. - -Mrs. PAINE. A remark not pertinent to the assassination or to the -Oswalds but to my marriage. - -Mr. JENNER. Is the name---- - -Senator COOPER. Let me just say for the record I think that will have -to be a matter which will have to be considered by the members of the -Commission. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -The letter to which you have reference you have exhibited to me, it is -in your handwriting and it is in the same condition now as it was, a -copy of a letter as I recall? - -Mrs. PAINE. Which letter are you referring to? - -(Short recess.) - -Senator COOPER. On the record. - -Mr. JENNER. I will do some jumping around because we have some tag ends -to cover, I hope in a hurry. - -You left New Orleans on September 23, was that in the morning or -afternoon? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was early morning. - -Mr. JENNER. Early morning. - -Did you drive right straight through to Irving? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You stopped then the evening of September 23, is that right? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And where, in Texas? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was just over the line into Texas. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the name of the town? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you pay for that lodging? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. By the way, was there ever any financial arrangement agreed -on with respect to Marina's stay with you in the fall of 1963 which -would involve your giving her $10 a week or any other sum? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing was said beyond this attempt in the letter that -I made to make her feel that she would not be having to ask for every -need. - -Mr. JENNER. We have those letters now in evidence and you testified -about them yesterday? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Returning your attention to the time that Mr. Oswald, Lee -Oswald, came to Irving in October of 1963, that is October 4, and -reported to you he hitchhiked, you recall that? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. He remained overnight the night of the 4th of October, is -that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he return to Dallas the following day? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he driven back to Dallas within the next couple of days -by you? - -Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is that I took him to the bus station -around noon on the 7th of October, that is a Monday. - -Mr. JENNER. You did not drive him all the way into downtown Dallas? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't believe so. - -Mr. JENNER. Marina has testified, or at least when interviewed by the -FBI stated, that you did drive Lee to downtown Dallas. - -Mrs. PAINE. I have given you all my recollections on this matter, -haven't I, for the record? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. With---- - -Mr. JENNER. Even after further reflection last night your recollection -is as you have already stated? - -Mrs. PAINE. That there was an occasion that we were going in with a -Russian typewriter on an errand of mine to get that fixed, and I drove -him to Ross Street and some crossroad, and he said was near to the -employment office. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -What occasion was this? - -Mrs. PAINE. What day? - -Mr. JENNER. Day, yes; please? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall but I would be fairly certain it was a -Monday. - -Mr. JENNER. And had he been out at your home over the weekend? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is my best recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it after he had become employed with the Book -Depository? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; he was on his way to the employment office. This was -his purpose. - -Mr. JENNER. So it was sometime prior to the weekend, was it, that the -matter of employment by the Texas Book Depository had arisen? - -Mrs. PAINE. I would judge that it has to have been on the 14th, which -was Monday prior and indeed morning prior to the conversation at Mrs. -Roberts about this. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mrs. PAINE. But I may be wrong about that, but it is my best -recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. Did the conversation at Mrs. Roberts take place on the 15th -of October? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; on the 14th. - -Mr. JENNER. On the 14th. That was what day of the week? - -Mrs. PAINE. Monday. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you drive him into Dallas on that day? - -Mrs. PAINE. I can't think when else it could have been. - -Mr. JENNER. And to the best of your recollection that is probably the -day then? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you indicate--did Marina accompany you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she or you indicate any interest in driving by and -seeing his apartment or room? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at any time, Mrs. Paine, in your -home or otherwise, with Marina or with Lee, as to the appearance of -his rooming house, curtains flooring, what it was like? - -Mrs. PAINE. The only thing I recall is that he described it as more -comfortable than the $7 room he had occupied, told me the cost of it, -said that he could watch television and had privileges to use the -refrigerator. - -Mr. JENNER. But other than that he didn't describe it? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there ever any discussion of any need on his part for -curtains, that he liked to brighten up his room or in any respect, any -additional appointments? - -Mrs. PAINE. There was no such conversation at any time. - -Mr. JENNER. You are acquainted with Dr. Froelich Rainey? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am. - -Mr. JENNER. He is--what is his position with the University of -Pennsylvania. He has a position with the University of Pennsylvania -Music Department, has he not? - -Mrs. PAINE. He is the curator, the head man, as I understand it. - -Mr. JENNER. You are acquainted with his wife Penelope? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am. - -Mr. JENNER. Does Penelope speak Russian fluently? - -Mrs. PAINE. She has a very good command of the language. I think she -has not had very much opportunity to use it in speech. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you had occasion to inquire of Mrs. Rainey as to -whether she might assist you with your Russian studies? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, there was never any discussion of assisting me in the -role of tutor. She did some years ago loan me a record which I taped -that was in Russian, and we visited this fall as part of my trip in the -east. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean, summer, not fall. - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, it was, yes, August probably or early September that -I saw her. - -Mr. JENNER. And you do recall during the course of your summer trip -before you went, that is you wound up in New Orleans from that trip? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. So we are talking about the same trip. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is the same trip. - -Mr. JENNER. You did see her? - -Mrs. PAINE. I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Where in Philadelphia? - -Mrs. PAINE. At her home. - -Mr. JENNER. Where is her home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Her home is not far from the residence where I was staying -in Paoli. It is suburban Philadelphia. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion then to report to her that--about -Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. And advise her in that respect, that she was married to an -American who is now residing in New Orleans? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you say to her that the, I will call the, lady, Marina, -but it is stated differently here, appeared to be having marital -difficulties with her husband. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And would you state what your remarks were to Mrs. Rainey -in that connection? That is the treatment of Marina by Lee? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall exactly what I said as to the treatment, -but that Marina was unhappy, and that I thought she should have some -alternative to living with him, and that I would probably, when down -there, offer for her to live at my home. She asked me what Michael -thought of that, and I said we had discussed it but that Michael and -I were not living together, and this was news to Mrs. Rainey, and -concerned her deeply. - -And I said that I was lonely. I recall one important thing in what I -said to Mrs. Rainey, that I never said in conversation to anyone else, -that I was worried about offending Lee, that if offended, or if he felt -I was taking his wife or not doing what he wanted in the situation, -that he might be angry with me, and that I didn't want to subject -myself or my children to possible harm from him. - -She is the only person to whom I mentioned my thought that he might -possibly be a person who could cause harm, and there was a very, not -a strong thought in my thinking at all, but should be registered as -having at least occurred to me, that he could be angry to the point of -violence in relation to me. - -Mr. JENNER. To the point of physical violence in relation to you? - -Mrs. PAINE. In relation to me in this situation and I wanted to be -perfectly sure before I made any offer definite that he was not, in -fact, angry at my offer. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall visiting your sister Sylvia? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; indeed. - -Mr. JENNER. You were there about 3 days? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss Marina when you were with your sister? - -Mrs. PAINE. Very probably. - -Mr. JENNER. And in substance did you say to your sister that you -intended to go to New Orleans in the course of your trip within about -2 weeks to pick up Marina who was pregnant, she was the wife of an -American, and she was to live with you in your home in Texas? - -Did you say that much to her? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I probably said it depended on whether she wanted to -go. - -Mr. JENNER. Other than that have I stated the substance in that -connection? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you also say to her that Marina wanted to leave her -husband who was not supporting her, and was a jerk as far as his -husband's role was concerned? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You did not. - -What did you say, did you say anything of similar import? - -Mrs. PAINE. Similar? - -Mr. JENNER. That is, you did imply to your sister, did you, that Marina -wished to leave Lee? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. I would guess that was her interpretation. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you say in this connection, please? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall exactly. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, did you say, did you express your personal opinion to -your sister as to Lee Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you say in that connection. - -Mrs. PAINE. My opinion of Lee Oswald was quite negative all the way up -to---- - -Mr. JENNER. This is what you have told your sister now, that is what I -want. - -Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall exactly what I told my sister at all. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. I talked with virtually everyone I saw this summer, and -there were a great many people, about this friend because it was -important to me. I have already testified that I thought Lee didn't -care enough about his wife and wasn't being a proper husband in the -spring and through the summer, therefore, and it wasn't until I was in -New Orleans that I thought he cared at all. - -Mr. JENNER. I am just confining myself to this period. During this -period as you visited your friends you did have occasion to express a -negative opinion on your part with respect to Lee Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. Indeed. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. It might have been more or less forceful in that expression -of your opinion depending on the person with whom or to whom you were -talking. - -Mrs. PAINE. I would say that my sister's reaction to what I said was -more forceful than what I said. - -Mr. JENNER. But you did express a negative opinion. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You testified that--are you acquainted with a Dr. Carl Hyde? - -Mrs. PAINE. He is my brother. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss Marina and Lee with him when you visited -there in September of 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. I recall particularly an evening discussion with his wife -where I told quite a lot about the contact that I had had with Marina. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you state to either or both of them that Marina's -husband was a Communist? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is possible. I think it is more likely that I referred -to him as a Marxist. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, what is the distinction between a Marxist and a -Communist in your mind? - -Mrs. PAINE. Distinction is not clear to me, but I judged that Lee felt -there was a distinction as he---- - -Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to what Lee thought a Marxist -was as distinguished from a Communist? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have no clear impression. - -Mr. JENNER. If I suggested the possibility of, that a Marxist tenet was -the change in government by violent means rather than gradual process? - -Mrs. PAINE. This is not something I ever heard from him. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it anything that you ever thought of? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. A concept that you ever had? - -Mrs. PAINE. In describing Marxism? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with Lee why he was--he always took -care to distinguish to say that he was a Marxist as distinguished from -a Communist? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I never did. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you form an impression as to what he intended to convey -by that description? - -Mrs. PAINE. He intended to convey that he was more pure, I felt, that -was my impression. - -Mr. JENNER. More pure than what? - -Mrs. PAINE. Than a Communist. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you also say to your brother or your sister or both of -them that Lee had not permitted her to learn English, that is Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. Very probably. - -Mr. JENNER. And that Marina was experiencing marital difficulties with -Lee? - -Mrs. PAINE. Very probably. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever say that Marina did not share her husband's -political views? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, that is to your brother or sister or both of -them? - -Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. Speaking of the marital difficulties, did you ever have the -feeling that Marina was in some measure a contribution--contributed -toward those, causing those difficulties or a catalyst from which those -difficulties resulted? - -Mrs. PAINE. I didn't have that feeling. - -Mr. JENNER. You did not. - -What feeling did you have in that direction, assuming you had one? - -Mrs. PAINE. All the time I knew her or at least any references from -her of the matter to their marriage left me with the impression that -it was hopeful that though it was difficult they could work out their -difficulties. - -Mr. JENNER. And that she was desirous of attempting to do so? - -Mrs. PAINE. She was desirous of attempting to do so though still -leaving open the possibility that in time she would have to conclude -that she couldn't. - -She by no means simply gave in to him on every point or let him walk on -her, but that, I would say, is a healthy thing for the marriage rather -than anything contributive to any fundamental difficulty in it. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you completed your answer? - -Senator COOPER. May I ask a question? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Senator COOPER. Did Marina ever indicate to you in any way whether or -not she felt, after she came to the United States and saw Lee Oswald -in his country in which he had been born and reared, that she found -him unintelligent or a person of mean ability, small ability or poor -background? - -Did she ever have any comment in any way on his being inferior? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall her ever commenting in that way. - -Mr. JENNER. Was she disappointed in any way after he returned to the -United States? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall her ever saying that. - -I had heard Mrs. Ford express such an opinion. - -Mr. JENNER. That would be hearsay? - -Mrs. PAINE. That would be hearsay. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you know, are you familiar with the report that -appeared in the Fort Worth Press on January 15, 1964, reporting that -you had told Marvin Lane that Lee could not have taken the rifle from -your garage and gone to practice without your knowledge? - -Do you recall that? - -Mrs. PAINE. I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Mark Lane. - -Mrs. PAINE. It is Mark but that perhaps was in the Fort Worth Press. I -recall that. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever make that statement to a reporter for the Fort -Worth Press? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did; with slight variation. It always came out a -more definite statement in the press than I meant to make it. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you say to the reporter then? - -Mrs. PAINE. I said I did not see how he could have taken the gun from -the garage without my knowing it. There were two weekends particularly -in question which had been reported in the Press that someone had seen -him at a firing range, one being the weekend of the 9th and 10th, and I -was home virtually all of that weekend except Monday the 11th as I have -already described. - -The other being the following weekend, and I didn't see how he could -have--the weekend he was not out at my house, I didn't see how he could -have come out, taken the gun, gone away without my knowledge, and if -the gun had not been in that garage that weekend, I didn't see what the -purpose of his coming out the 21st of November was in the situation. - -And this is what I told Mr. Tackett of the Fort Worth Press. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you also tell Mr. Tackett in addition to, that his -reasons for his not engaging in rifle practice that weekend or any -other weekend was that he couldn't drive an automobile? - -Mrs. PAINE. Very probably. - -Mr. JENNER. And also that he couldn't have walked that far for rifle -practice? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. By that far I mean there is no place you can walk to -from my house, not only not to the firing range, but to an open enough -place where you could fire. It would be difficult to walk that far. - -Mr. JENNER. Where was the firing range at which it was suggested he -practiced? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't know exactly. It was in the Grand Prairie area, -just south of where we are located. But it would be a 15-minute car -drive I would expect. - -Mr. JENNER. From your home to the firing range. Do you know, did you -ever go to the firing range to see where it really was located? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I never did. - -Mr. JENNER. You are relying on the newspapers, are you? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. When you say thinking of its location you are thinking of -the general location of Grand Prairie, Tex. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Senator COOPER. Were you asked to give your opinion on that? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think so. - -Senator COOPER. Why would you submit that as your conclusion that he -could not have taken the rifle away, could not have got to a firing -range? - -Mrs. PAINE. The only thing--well--it had been reported in the press -that he had been seen at a firing range or someone said he had seen -him, Oswald, at a firing range on the weekend of the 9th, 10th, and the -following weekend and it seemed to me important to say what I could on -the subject if I had any contrary information, and I did any time the -reporters asked me about it. - -Senator COOPER. When you made a statement about the rifle, were you -considering the fact that he had left your house on the morning of the -21st before you got up? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't understand the question. - -Senator COOPER. The 22d, yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. Let me say in making such a statement to the Press, I was -not implying that I didn't think Oswald had taken a gun from my house -on the morning of the 22d. Now, you ask the question again and perhaps -I will understand it better. - -Senator COOPER. Were you referring to two weekends when he left your -house in saying that he couldn't take the gun or were you including -also the morning of the 22d? - -Mrs. PAINE. I was definitely not including the morning of the 22d. - -Mr. JENNER. May I proceed, Mr. Chairman. - -Senator COOPER. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know of any occasion when Lee and Marina did or -might have visited the welfare office of the Salvation Army on your -return from Dallas? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Having in mind all your contact with them during that -period, do you have an opinion as to whether that could have taken -place, that they did visit the Salvation Army Welfare Office? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was suggested that this was in the fall of the year? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't know of any time that they could have. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall in your discussion with Mr. Randle when the -matter of the Texas School Book Depository possible employment came up, -did you make a statement to Mrs. Randle suggesting that she not mention -to anyone that Marina was of Russian birth? - -Mrs. PAINE. After he had been hired I told Mrs. Randle that Lee was -worried about losing his job, and asked her if she would mention to -Wesley that he was worried about this, and would prefer for it not -to be talked about where he worked, that he had a Russian wife as -that would, therefore, bring up the subject of his having been in -Russia and, therefore, the subject of his having tried to change his -citizenship there, and she said to me oh, she was certain that Wesley -would not talk about it. - -Mr. JENNER. That was the extent of the conversation? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And its thrust, rather than the cryptic thrust I have given -it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know a Frank Krystinik? - -Mrs. PAINE. I do. - -Mr. JENNER. He is an associate of your husband? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to say to him at any time that Lee -Oswald was not properly taking care of his wife and children? - -Mrs. PAINE. I could well have given him that impression or given him -that impression through Michael. I didn't very often see Frank. - -Mr. JENNER. But you could have made that remark to him? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You made similar remarks to others? - -Mrs. PAINE. Indeed, I have. - -Mr. JENNER. During the time you visited with your mother-in-law, Mrs. -Young, did you say to her that Lee wished his wife to return to Russia -alone? - -Mrs. PAINE. I very probably did. - -Mr. JENNER. And also that he did not wish his wife to learn to speak -English? - -Mrs. PAINE. I would judge that I did. - -Mr. JENNER. And that Marina did not wish to return to Russia? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Senator COOPER. While you are getting your papers together can I ask a -few questions? - -Mr. JENNER. Surely. - -Senator COOPER. I refer to November 22 when the police came and you and -Marina went into the garage with the police, you testified about that. -Then you discovered that there wasn't anything in the blanket. - -Now, at a later time, I believe you testified that the police showed -Marina a rifle and asked her if she could identify this rifle that she -had seen in Lee's possession. - -What did she say about it? - -Mrs. PAINE. She said that her husband's rifle had been a dark gun, -that she was not certain that that was the one. That she could not -absolutely recall whether there had been a telescopic sight on his gun -or not. - -Senator COOPER. Was she speaking in Russian? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Senator COOPER. Were you translating? - -Mrs. PAINE. No, Mr. Mamantov. - -Senator COOPER. Were you following what she said? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; indeed. - -Senator COOPER. How did she designate the sight? What words? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is a Russian word that sounded to me like binocular, as -I recall. - -Senator COOPER. Did she refer to it as a sighting device not in the -words sighting device, but did her language in substance as she -described it give reference to it as a sight on the rifle? - -Mrs. PAINE. My judgment is that Mr. Mamantov used the word in reference -to it first, you see, and then she simply used the same word. - -Asking her was she acquainted with this, and giving the word in -Russian, and she said she wasn't certain she had seen that binocular or -whatever the word used was on the gun. - -Senator COOPER. Now, at any time on the 22d, after she had admitted -that she had seen a rifle before, and in your talk with her, either on -the way into the police station or any other time, did she say anything -more about having seen the rifle before? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; she didn't. - -Senator COOPER. To you? What? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Senator COOPER. Did you know who brought Lee Oswald to your house from -Dallas when he would come for his visits? - -Mrs. PAINE. After he had gotten his job it was my understanding that he -came with Wesley Frazier. - -Senator COOPER. Did you ever hear him say that anyone else brought him -to your house? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't. - -Senator COOPER. Did he ever say that any fellow worker at the -Depository brought him to the house? - -Mrs. PAINE. Other than Wesley Frazier; no. - -Senator COOPER. Did he ever mention by name or any description any of -the people with whom he worked at the Depository? - -Mrs. PAINE. Except for Wesley; no. - -Senator COOPER. He never mentioned any one of his fellow workers, -associates there? - -Mrs. PAINE. None. - -Senator COOPER. Did he ever refer to them in any way as liking or -disliking them as a group or as individuals? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't. - -Senator COOPER. In your talks with him or in hearing him talk did he -ever refer to any persons who were friends of his or associates? - -Mrs. PAINE. I never heard him mention anyone. - -Senator COOPER. He never mentioned the name of any person? - -Mrs. PAINE. Not anyone. He mentioned a friend in Houston as I have -already testified, no name and I was wondering whether there was any -such friend, I recall that. That is absolutely the only reference I can -recall. - -Senator COOPER. You said that you told someone that Marina did not -agree with his political views? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Senator COOPER. How did you know that? - -Mrs. PAINE. She told me she wasn't interested in politics. She told me -indeed that Lee complained about her lack of interest. - -Senator COOPER. That is something different from saying that she didn't -agree with them. - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, she did say that she didn't like his having passed -out leaflets in New Orleans. This is still different from saying she -disagreed, though. But that is the most I can say. - -Senator COOPER. Did she ever tell her what her political views were, if -any? - -Mrs. PAINE. She said she didn't consider herself a person interested in -politics. She---- - -Senator COOPER. Did she ever refer to Lee being a Marxist or a -Communist? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall such a reference ever. - -Senator COOPER. Did she ever tell you whether or not she was a Marxist -or a Communist? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. I assumed she was not either. - -Senator COOPER. What? - -Mrs. PAINE. I assumed she was not either. She did at one point poke fun -at the Party faithful who attended a Young Communist meeting in Minsk, -whom she considered a dull lot and the meetings quite dull. - -Senator COOPER. I missed the early part of your testimony so you -may have testified to this, but I thought that I recalled that you -did answer a question addressed to you by someone, a member of the -Commission or counsel, in which you said that you were attracted to the -Oswalds when you first met them, one, because you wanted to perfect -your own Russian, and did you say, too, that you were interested -because of the fact that he had been a defector and had returned and it -was an unusual circumstance which interested you? - -Mrs. PAINE. It made him an odd person. - -Senator COOPER. What? - -Mrs. PAINE. It made him an odd person. I was interested in the curious -sense of what could have motivated him to do this. - -Senator COOPER. Having that interest, didn't you ever talk to him about -it, inquire about his experience? - -Mrs. PAINE. I guess I wasn't interested enough. - -Senator COOPER. What led him to do it? - -Mrs. PAINE. And as I have already testified he always wanted to speak -Russian to me, which shortens my tongue. I can't say as much or raise -as many questions. - -Senator COOPER. Well, did you try to search out the reasons for his -defection and the reasons for returning? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't. - -Senator COOPER. And his political views, his economic views, that kind -of thing? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I regret now that I didn't take any interest, but I did -not. - -Senator COOPER. You said that, in answer to counsel that, you either -did tell people or probably told them that you believed Lee Oswald was -a Communist. - -Mrs. PAINE. It is my impression I spoke of him as he spoke of himself -as a Marxist. - -Senator COOPER. And you think, you believe, that has some relationship -to communism? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh; yes. - -Senator COOPER. I think you have stated that you didn't believe it was -necessary for a person to actually be a member of the Communist Party -to be a Communist in his views? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But that I considered it something less than actually -accurate to call such a person a Communist that went on being---- - -Senator COOPER. Other than the persons you have named in your testimony -as having come to your house, was there anyone else who ever came to -your house, who talked to Lee Oswald or Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. I recall no one other than the people I have mentioned, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Knowing that he was as you have described in your own -words, a Marxist, were you concerned at all about that or worried about -that, as being in your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, as I have described in testimony, I asked myself -whether or not he might be a spy. I was not at all worried about -ideology contrary to my own or with which I disagreed, and it looked to -me that he was a person of this ideology or philosophy which he calls -Marxism, indeed nearly a religion. - -But not that he was in any way dangerous because of these beliefs. - -Senator COOPER. Thinking now and then that he might be a spy or in the -employ of the Soviet Union, were you concerned about the fact that such -person who might be a spy or an agent of the Soviet Union was living in -your house? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, if you recall my testimony I concluded that he was -not, and also I was pleased that the FBI had come and I felt that they -would worry about that, and that I didn't need to worry about any risk -to me of public censure for my befriending such a person. - -Senator COOPER. You told about the newspapers and periodicals that he -received and read. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Senator COOPER. Did he also have any books that he read while he was at -your house? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall his reading books while he was at my house. -He watched television a great deal but I don't recall his reading books. - -Senator COOPER. You said that he did not have very ample means, -financial means. - -Were you struck with the fact that he was able to have these newspapers -sent to him from Russia, England, New York? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I observed---- - -Senator COOPER. The Communist Worker comes from New York. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, nothing from England, I recall, but he certainly -considered these valuable. He was willing to spend money on these, I -observed that, yes. It was rather unusual or unlike the rest of his -behavior in that he did spend money for these periodicals. - -Senator COOPER. Did you ever lend any money to either Marina or Lee -Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Senator COOPER. What? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever give them any money? - -Mrs. PAINE. Cash money; no. - -Senator COOPER. What? - -Mrs. PAINE. Cash; no. - -Of course, I bought groceries but that is not what you are asking. - -Senator COOPER. You gave no money in the sense that you turned over -physical possession of it? - -Mrs. PAINE. I did not. - -Senator COOPER. To either Lee or Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; not at any time to either one. - -Senator COOPER. You did help them in the sense that you provided a home -for Marina and on occasion provided food for Lee? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Senator COOPER. I have just one or two more. - -You said at one time you came to the conclusion that he wasn't an agent -or spy because you didn't think he was intelligent enough. - -I believe you said that. - -Mrs. PAINE. That and the fact that as far as I could see had no -contacts or any means of getting any information that would have been -of any interest to the Soviet Union. - -Senator COOPER. Yet he was intelligent enough that he had learned to -speak Russian. - -Mrs. PAINE. His Russian was poor. His vocabulary was large, his grammar -never was good. - -Senator COOPER. You said that he had, I believe, had the initiative to -go to Russia, not as a tourist but as for reasons that he had developed -himself, and that he came back when he made up his mind to come and was -able to bring his wife. - -You knew he moved around rather quickly, didn't you? He was in New -Orleans---- - -Mrs. PAINE. In this country? - -Senator COOPER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. No, I knew he had been in Fort Worth and had come to Dallas -to seek work and then losing work had gone back to New Orleans and then -back to Dallas. - -Senator COOPER. What made you willing to have this man, you have said, -this very curious man, from all you have described about him, to have -him in your house? - -Mrs. PAINE. He was Marina's husband and I like her, and I, as I have -described, was both lonely and interested in learning the Russian -language. I would have been happy had he never come out, indeed happier -had he not come out on the weekends. - -But they were not separated as a married couple nor contemplating such -separation, and I didn't feel that this--it was appropriate for him to -have to stay away. I did not ask that. - -Senator COOPER. Prior to the time that Marina left your home--the day -of the assassination, wasn't it? - -Mrs. PAINE. She left the next day. - -Senator COOPER. The next day. - -Had you and Marina ever had any disputes or quarrels between yourselves? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have referred to just one time when she in a sense was -taking me to task on the matter of whose property their address was, I -just mentioned that, that is the only time I recall. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the incident in which you---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Following the November 5th meeting with Mr. Hosty. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Hosty. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Senator COOPER. You had said that, I believe you said, prior to the -assassination you considered Lee Oswald as being violent or dangerous? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, now I have said that the thought crossed my mind once -in relation to myself. - -Senator COOPER. What caused that? - -Mrs. PAINE. That he might be violent, because I thought he might resent -my stepping in to do for his wife what he was not doing. - -Senator COOPER. What made you think he would be violent about it if he -wasn't caring about taking care of her? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I wanted to satisfy myself, and I did then. The -thought crossed my mind before I went to New Orleans for the second -time as I have referred to it in a conversation with Mr. Rainey, before -I went to New Orleans and then seeing him and changing my opinion some -about him, I felt that he would not be violent or angry with me for -this offer, and then proceeded with it, and this is the only---- - -Senator COOPER. I can understand why a person might be angry about -something. But what about him led you to believe that he might be -violent? - -Mrs. PAINE. There was nothing that I could put my finger on. On the -contrary my general impression was not of a man who would break out in -sudden marked violence. He argued with his wife, and was distinctly -unpleasant with her. - -Senator COOPER. I believe you said the other day in answer to a -question by Congressman Boggs that you held the opinion now that he did -fire the rifle at the President. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe that is so but I don't know. - -Senator COOPER. From this vantage point, is there anything about him -now which you think of which seems consistent with the fact that he, -that you believe he did shoot the President, President Kennedy? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, what has led me to the conclusion that he did shoot -President Kennedy is the massive circumstantial evidence that surrounds -his relationship or where he was, what he had at the time of the -assassination. Perhaps we should get into the matter of motive. - -Senator COOPER. In other words, a person's personality, is there -anything you can think of now which would change your mind or change -the viewpoint that you held previously that he wasn't violent? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I still can recall no incident that I saw, nothing or -thought at the time, with this small exception of the one reference to -Mrs. Rainey that--and that was a conjecture in reference to myself. -Nothing that violent or indeed that insane. - -Senator COOPER. Was it your opinion that Mrs. Oswald was shaken by the -assassination and by the fact that her husband was charged with it? - -Mrs. PAINE. She was certainly shaken on the afternoon when the -policemen were out there, when he was at that time just charged with -the shooting of Tippit. I never saw her after he was charged with the -shooting of the President. - -Senator COOPER. One other question: I think you said when Marguerite -Oswald, Lee Oswald's mother, came to your house, and the Life people -later appeared, you spoke of that, did you say that both of them, both -Marina and Marguerite, seemed to be interested in making some kind of a -deal with Life in order to get money? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Senator COOPER. Or were you speaking only of Marguerite Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. I was speaking only of Marguerite Oswald. I could add -here that Marina appeared to me to want to be courteous and polite -toward her mother-in-law, and wished to go along with whatever wishes -Marguerite had on the subject. - -Senator COOPER. Has anyone tried to make any kind of a business -transaction for your statement or story? - -Mrs. PAINE. At that time or since? - -Senator COOPER. Since. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Senator COOPER. What? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The Commission has a copy of an article that was -written for Look which was not published and will not be. - -Senator COOPER. Has that been testified? - -Mr. JENNER. Will not be what? - -Mrs. PAINE. Published. It is now my property and I don't plan to, I -have no plans presently, at least. - -Senator COOPER. Just for the record, have you entered into any kind of -business transaction by which you would be paid for a story about this -assassination? - -Mrs. PAINE. I will not be paid for any story I write, and I am certain -now I don't want to write any such story. I have, however, worked with -Miss Jessamyn West, who is an author for an article which will appear -in Time and Red Book magazine, or I expect it will. She is writing -that, she talked to me. - -Mr. JENNER. She approached you on that article? - -Mrs. PAINE. No one approached me in that article. Was already decided -before I was asked. But that is---- - -Mr. JENNER. Who decided it? - -Mrs. PAINE. I had implied that I would be willing to do this, but not -to anyone I thought was making an offer. This is aside. - -Mr. JENNER. This was an offer to help the subject of the interview -being interviewed? - -Mrs. PAINE. All I really should say in clarification here is that there -was bad communication between Red Book, Miss West and myself, and she -was under the impression that I had agreed to do this before she had -in fact been contacted, but then the fact of Red Book and Miss West -thinking that this was something I had agreed to I then did agree to do -it. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Senator COOPER. Back on the record. - -Have you been paid or promised any monetary consideration for any -article that you might write or you might assist someone else in -writing about your experiences connected with the Oswalds? - -Mrs. PAINE. The complete answer to that would be that I received a $300 -advance from Look magazine for helping in the writing of that article -which will not appear, and that I have been told I will receive $500 -from Red Book magazine for helping Miss West in writing that, and if -you want, I will tell you what I think about what I want to do with -this money but perhaps that is not pertinent. - -Senator COOPER. If you want to? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I plan to give it away. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean give it to charity? - -Mrs. PAINE. To charity. - -Senator COOPER. That is all I have. - -Mr. JENNER. You have referred to a Look magazine article in the -preparation of which you have assisted. I have marked as Commission -Exhibit No. 460 a document which I received from Mr. George Harris, -after you had authorized me to call him and ask for it. - -Would you glance through that and verify that that is the article in -the final form? - -You have examined Commission Exhibit 460. Is that the Look article to -which you have made reference in your testimony here this afternoon? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And that article, however, is not one to be published? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you look over that article in this final form and -approve it as to text and statements made in it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; although I don't think the final draft had been done -or final approval given before it was decided that it would not be used. - -Mr. JENNER. But as this exhibit stands, Commission Exhibit No. 460, the -text and statements that are made in there had your approval? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they are, of course, not all of my words. - -Mr. JENNER. Of course, not. The article was written by? - -Mrs. PAINE. By George Harris, who is a senior editor on Look magazine, -and he wrote it from typed copy he had directly as he had taken it from -my telling. - -Mr. JENNER. So it is, to use somewhat of a vernacular, it is ghost -written? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is ghost written but most of it is my words. - -Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence, as Commission Exhibit No. 460, the -document we have just identified. - -Senator COOPER. It will be received in evidence. - -(The document referred to, heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit -No. 460, was received in evidence.) - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have an interest in the Russian language as has -appeared from your testimony? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, are you now or have you ever been a member of -the Communist Party? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am not now and have never been a member of the Communist -Party. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you now or have you ever had any leanings which we might -call Communist Party leanings. - -Mrs. PAINE. No; on the contrary. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you now or have you ever been a member of any groups -which you consciously recognize as being, let us say, Communist front -groups? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I have not and I would be quite certain I had not been -unconsciously a member of any such groups. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it from your response that you have an aversion to -communism? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. And would be at pains and have been at pains during your -adult life, at least, to avoid any association with or any advancement -of communism as we know and abhor it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is right. - -If I may say here, I am offended by the portion of the Communist -doctrine that thinks violence is necessary to achieve its aims. I am -likewise offended by the doctrine that any means to what is considered -a good end is legitimate. - -I, on the contrary, feel that there is no justification at any time for -deception, and the Communists, as I have observed their activity, have -no reluctance to deceive, and this offends me seriously. - -Mr. JENNER. In that thinking, violence also impels you against the -Communist faith? - -Mrs. PAINE. It certainly does. - -Mr. JENNER. Or political doctrine? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; their espousal of violence repels me. - -Mr. JENNER. You have an interest in the Russian language? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, the members of the Commission, all of them are -interested in how you came to have your interest in the Russian -language, and they would like to have you indicate when it first arose -and under what circumstances and what impelled you to have an interest -in the Russian language; start from the very beginning of your life in -that connection--that episode in your life? - -Mrs. PAINE. All right. To be really the very beginning I will start and -say I have been interested in other languages before being interested -in Russian. I studied French in high school, German in college, and got -a tutor to study Yiddish when I was working with a group that spoke -that language. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the Golden Age group of the Young---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Men and Young Women---- - -Mr. JENNER. Hebrew Association in Philadelphia? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. At that time you were employed by? - -Mrs. PAINE. That organization. - -Mr. JENNER. By that organization. And were you doing work in connection -with this plan of Antioch College? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; that was after I had completed my work at Antioch. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I do believe I did get some credit for that year at -Antioch although I had completed my academic work, I was still getting -some credit for my job credit, that is. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, proceed. - -Mrs. PAINE. And then I was working with a group of young Quakers, had -been indeed for sometime. - -Mr. JENNER. Please fix a little more definite time, please? - -Mrs. PAINE. I began my interest in young Quakers in 1947. - -Mr. JENNER. In 1947? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. As quite a young girl? - -Mrs. PAINE. When my interest also began in the Quaker church. - -Mr. JENNER. You were then what, you were 19 years old? - -Mrs. PAINE. I was going on 15, as a matter of fact. - -Mr. JENNER. Going on 15? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. You were going to high school? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Where were you living then? - -Mrs. PAINE. I was living in Columbus, Ohio. - -Mr. JENNER. And you became interested in the Quaker faith then or at -least in the Quaker activity? - -Mrs. PAINE. Both. - -Mr. JENNER. And were you a member of the Friends Society, young -people's society in Columbus at that time? - -Mrs. PAINE. I attended the meeting which is the Quaker church in -Columbus. They didn't have enough young people to have a society in -that particular meeting. But then in college I became active in the -national young Friends group. - -Mr. JENNER. What is the official name of that? - -Mrs. PAINE. The name at that time was the Young Friends Committee of -North America. It included Canada young Friends. And in this connection -I was, I served, as Chairman or Conference Coordinator for a conference -of young friends that was held in 1955. - -Mr. JENNER. Where? - -Mrs. PAINE. At Quaker Haven, Ind. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you attend that? - -Mrs. PAINE. I did. It was at this conference, toward the latter -part, part of really arising out of a discussion of the need for -communication and more of it between the United States and the Soviet -Union by no means the bulk of the business of this conference, but a -small committee of interested people, was working on this matter. - -Mr. JENNER. Are these interested young people? - -Mrs. PAINE. These are all young Friends. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were then of what age, 1955. 23? - -Senator COOPER. 9 years ago? - -Mrs. PAINE. 22, going on 23, that is right. - -Mr. JENNER. 22 going on 23. Was this in the summer time? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Vacation period? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. By the way, Mrs. Paine, you had been to England, had -you not, in some activity of the Friends Society back in 1952? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That was what meeting did you attend, and as a delegate of -what? - -Mrs. PAINE. I was selected as a delegate of the Lake Erie Association -which is the larger group to which my meeting in Columbus belonged. - -Mr. JENNER. Your Quaker meeting? - -Mrs. PAINE. My Quaker meeting. To go as a delegate to the Friends world -conference held at Oxford, England, in the summer of 1952. I also -attended a young Friends conference held in Reading, England, just -before the larger conference. Shall I return now to the conference at -Quaker Haven in 1955? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. I felt a calling in Friends terminology at that conference. - -Mr. JENNER. An impulse, a desire, is that what you mean, a pulling? - -Mrs. PAINE. More than that, that God asked of me that I study language, -and I can't say that it was specifically said what language. This was -at the time that plans first began for encouraging an exchange of -young people between the Soviet Union and the United States, and I -became active with the committee planning that, and from that planning -there was an exchange, three Soviet young people came to this country -and four young Quakers went to the Soviet Union, and I was very much -impressed with the dearth of people in this country who could speak -Russian. Here was a need for communication with people we had to live -with, although we disagreed with them, certainly disagreed with the -government, and the first elements of communication, the language, was -not available among most young people, and even among older people in -the country. My letter of June 18, 1959, marked Commission Exhibit -No. 459-1 contains a statement of my motivation to study Russian. So -it was this really that started me upon a course of study in Russian. -Then once started, I was more propelled by my interest in the language -itself. Shall I describe what training I have had? - -Mr. JENNER. Well, please. I want to cover something else before that. I -offer Commission Exhibit No. 459-1 in evidence. - -The CHAIRMAN. It is received. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there a movement also in this connection which you are -now describing of a pen pal communication between young people here in -America and young people in Russia? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have anything to do with that? - -Mrs. PAINE. There was a subcommittee of this Young Friends Committee of -North America which was called East-West Contact Committee. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you the leader of that committee? - -Mrs. PAINE. I was not. But I was chairman of a committee of that -committee, which was called Correspondence, and I helped make contact -between young people in this country who wished to write to someone in -the Soviet Union, and an organization of young people in Moscow which -found pen pals for these young Americans. - -We particularly wanted to go through an official organization so as to -be certain we were not endangering or putting suspicion upon anyone, -any young person in the Soviet Union to whom we were writing. We felt -if they picked their own people that would lessen the suspicion of the -Soviet person. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you active in that group? - -Mrs. PAINE. I was chairman of that for sometime. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you take part in the pen pal correspondence yourself? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. And do you recall now the names of the Russian young -people or Russian young person with whom you communicate, or sought -communication? - -Mrs. PAINE. I recall I wrote a few letters to a person named Ella, -I have forgotten her last name, and I don't believe I have the -correspondence still. If I did, I don't any more. - -Mr. JENNER. If you once had it? - -Mrs. PAINE. If I once had it, I don't have it now in my possession, and -then that stopped because she stopped writing. I wrote and got another -correspondent whose name is Nina Aparina, with whom I corresponded up -to last spring, I would say, and I haven't--yes; and I haven't heard -anything from her for about a year. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the nature of the correspondence, particularly -with respect to subject matter? - -Mrs. PAINE. We discussed? - -Mr. JENNER. In this letter period? - -Mrs. PAINE. We discussed our mutual interest in language. She was a -teacher of the English language. She married an engineer during the -time of our correspondence. - -Mr. JENNER. Russian? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; of course. - -Mr. JENNER. Russian citizen? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. We exchanged a magnetic tape recording one time. I -sent her one and she sent one with music and readings, hers were music -and readings in Russian, and mine was similar in English as part of -language study aid. - -My last communication said she was expecting a baby last June but I -haven't heard anything from her since that communication, as I say, -probably a year ago that came. - -Mr. JENNER. Now all of your activity, this activity, of correspondence -between you and any citizen in Russia, was part of it, originated in -the Young Friends group, an activity to supply here a meeting with, -communication by, Americans with citizens in Russia, and then latterly -in your communication with the lady you have last mentioned, a mutual -exchange between the two of you here to improve her English and you to -improve your Russian? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. The committee was formed much the same -time that our State Department made arrangements with the Soviets -for cultural exchange, and I think our purposes were similar but, of -course, outside the government. - -Mr. JENNER. Now the three Russian students who came over here, did you -have any contact with them? - -Mrs. PAINE. I met them once at an open meeting in North Philadelphia. - -Mr. JENNER. Were a number of other people present? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And that is the only contact you had with them? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Proceed. - -Mrs. PAINE. Except that I read a book that was written by one of these -students nearly a year after he had gone back to the Soviet Union -which I found most disillusioning, I must say, in which it was pure -propaganda. - -Mr. JENNER. He sought to report what his experiences here were in -America? - -Mrs. PAINE. He sought to report on this trip that he had taken, that we -had worked to achieve. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you regard him as fair or accurate, that is, what you -read? - -Mrs. PAINE. What I read of the book he wrote was extremely inaccurate -and unfair. - -Mr. JENNER. Did it misrepresent America as you knew it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Misrepresented America, certainly. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. PAINE. Shall I go on now to what I have studied? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. Have you had any formal education in the study of the -Russian language? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. I attended a concentrated summer course at -the University of Pennsylvania in the summer of 1957 where, during the -course of 6 weeks, we completed a first year college Russian text. - -Mr. JENNER. What year did you say that was? - -Mrs. PAINE. I believe that was 1957. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. PAINE. And then I had difficulty keeping that up, keeping Russian -up over the next year, but the following year I was no longer teaching -and took a course at Berlitz School of Languages in Philadelphia in -Russian, and improved my ability to converse, and it helped me to -recall what I had gone through rather too fast in this accelerated -course. - -I then applied for the summer course at the Middlebury College summer -language school in Middlebury, Vt., in the summer of 1959 and attended -that 7-week course. At Middlebury they required that you speak nothing -but the language you are studying the entire time, both in class and -out. This was very valuable though very difficult. - -Mr. JENNER. Who was your instructor? - -Mrs. PAINE. There? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. I took three courses. Natalie Yershov. - -Mr. JENNER. You were relating, Mrs. Paine, you recalled one of your -instructors at Middlebury? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the name of any other? - -Mrs. PAINE. Offhand I can't recall. I recall certainly the director of -the school but he was not an instructor of mine. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have a roommate? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your roommate's name? - -Mrs. PAINE. Her name was Helen Mamikonian. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you still have contact with her? - -Mrs. PAINE. It has been a long time since I have written but we have -exchanged Christmas cards. - -Mr. JENNER. Christmas cards and an occasional letter? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Where does she live? - -Mrs. PAINE. She lives and works in Boston where she is a teacher of -Russian language at Simmons College, as I recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she at one time live in New York City? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; her home is New York. She spent her high school years -there after having immigrated from France, and I believe her mother -still lives there, is a tutor for the Berlitz School in Russian in New -York. - -Mr. JENNER. Her mother is? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Now we have your study at Pennsylvania, University of Pennsylvania, and -your study at the Berlitz School in Philadelphia, was it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And your study at Middlebury College. What additional -formal or at least let us say semiformal instruction or education have -you had in the Russian language? - -Mrs. PAINE. I then moved to the Dallas area to the place where I -presently live in Irving, and then I would guess it was early in 1960 -I took up some study again at the Berlitz School in Dallas, completed -a course which I had paid for in Philadelphia, and then went on after -that with private lessons with Mrs. Gravitis, who has already been -mentioned. - -Mr. JENNER. Is Mrs. Gravitis also an instructor in the Berlitz School -in Dallas? - -Mrs. PAINE. I met her because she was an instructor for a short time -there and I think is yet on call to them as an instructor. - -Mr. JENNER. Does that cover your formal education in the Russian -language? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it does. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, are you a teacher of Russian? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have one student whom I teach beginning Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that a connection with an established institution? - -Mrs. PAINE. It began in connection with an established institution -during the summer of 1963, at the Saint Marks School of Texas in -Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were the teacher of Russian in the Saint Marks -School during that quarter or summer term? - -Mrs. PAINE. Summer term. - -Mr. JENNER. And arising out of that has been your engagement as a -tutor, is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Who is your student? - -Mrs. PAINE. My student's name is Bill H-U-T-K-I-N-S. - -Mr. JENNER. Is he, what is he, a young man? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am sorry, it is H-O-O-T-K-I-N-S. - -Mr. JENNER. How old is he? - -Mrs. PAINE. He turned 15 in the summer. - -Mr. JENNER. Is he a native American so far as you know? - -Mrs. PAINE. As far as I know, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it your--has it been also your desired objective on your -part to teach Russian as a regular instructor or teacher in the public -or private schools? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I would like to do that. - -Mr. JENNER. That is still your hope and desire? - -Mrs. PAINE. It interests me very much. - -Mr. JENNER. And it has been for sometime an objective of yours, has it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I will ask you a couple of general questions. First, I will -probably repeat this when I examine you in your deposition also, Mrs. -Paine, but I desire to have it on this record before the Commission, -is there anything that has come to your mind that you would like to -relate to the Commission which you think might be helpful to it in its -deliberations in consideration of the serious problems and events into -which they are inquiring? - -Mrs. PAINE. There are a few small items I hope we will get into -tomorrow. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you please state them as to subject matter, at least. -Would they take very long for you to state? - -Mrs. PAINE. I will make an attempt to be brief here. I recall that Lee -once used my typewriter to type something else beside this note, is -that what you want? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; would you turn and direct your remarks to the -Chairman, to Senator Cooper, so we can all hear you and you might speak -up a little bit, your voice has been dropping. - -Mrs. PAINE. I am tired. - -I recall that Lee once asked to borrow my typewriter and used it to -type something I judged was a letter at sometime prior to this day -November 9, when he typed a letter which we have a rough draft. This is -probably no use to you. - -Mr. JENNER. That is what I call the Mexico letter? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is what you call it, all right. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Give the exhibit. - -Mrs. PAINE. It is Exhibit No. 103. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you. - -Mrs. PAINE. I want to know whether you want to inquire of me my account -of Secret Service agents having come and asked me, having come out -to the house after the assassination to ask me if I had ever seen a -particular note which they had. And I have later assumed that this is -what has been referred to in the press as the note written by Oswald at -the time of the attempt on Walker and if you want I will make it clear -all I know in relation to that. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; I recall that incident and I wish you would, please. - -Mrs. PAINE. And then the other thing is simply to invite the members -of the Commission, but if it is a deposition I can't do that then, to -feel free to ask me any questions that are not settled in their mind -or clear regarding the separation which existed between myself and my -husband, if that is troublesome in any way or if there is anything in -which---- - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, if that doesn't embarrass you, members of the -Commission have voiced to me some interest in that, that is an interest -only to the extent they are seeking to resolve in their mind who Ruth -Paine is and if I may use the vernacular, what makes her tick, so would -you relate that now on the Commission record, please? - -Mrs. PAINE. All right. I might say that I think it is important and -relevant here because if I had not been separated from my husband I -would have not as I think I have already testified, made an invitation -to anyone to join the family circle, especially in such a small house. - -Really, I might ask if you have questions it might be easier for me to -answer them. - -Mr. JENNER. Perhaps we can bring it along in this fashion. What was the -cause of the separation between your husband and yourself, in your view? - -Mrs. PAINE. In my view, of course, yes. He expressed himself as not -really interested in remaining married to me. We never quarreled. We -never indeed have had any serious difference of opinion except I want -to live with him and he is not that interested in being with me, would -be our single difference of opinion. - -And in the spring of 1962 I felt that something more definite should -be done, and asked Michael why he continued to live with me if he felt -that way about it, and he said that it was easier and cost less, and I -said that wasn't a good enough reason for a marriage, and asked him to -be out of the house in the fall when I returned from summer vacation -that year. - -Mr. JENNER. That was 1962? - -Mrs. PAINE. 1962, yes. I would say our marriage is marked both by -mutual honesty, that is exceptional, and by a lack of overt or -interior strife except that it hasn't quite come together as a mutual -partnership. - -My mother recently said to me that "If you would just look only at what -Michael does there is nothing wrong with your marriage at all. It is -just what he says", and I concur with her opinion on that, that he is -so scrupulously honest with his own feelings that, and really too hard -on himself in a sense, that he states verbally this is not feeling that -he loves me or loves me enough, but in fact his actions toward me are -totally acceptable to me. - -Mr. JENNER. Is he gracious and kind and attentive to you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Has he always been? - -Mrs. PAINE. Insufficiently attentive, I would say, but he is always -kind and thoughtful. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you had any financial differences of opinion? - -Mrs. PAINE. We have not. - -Mr. JENNER. He even during this period of time when you were separated, -he voluntarily supported the household and you lived in a manner and -style that suited you or to which you had become accustomed? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, that is right. - -Mr. JENNER. You had no arguments about matters of that nature? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Your husband has returned to your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. He is living there now. - -Mr. JENNER. How long has that been? - -Mrs. PAINE. He has been staying there since the night of November 22. -He didn't move his belongings in until the middle of the following week. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you say this is a reconciliation? - -Mrs. PAINE. I can't say that. - -Mr. JENNER. You cannot. - -Do you wish to say any more in the statement of yours? - -Mrs. PAINE. Not unless you have questions. I think it is an accurate -statement of the marriage. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -What brought this forth was my asking you if you had anything you would -like to bring before the Commission. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Are there any others? - -Mrs. PAINE. I can think of nothing else. - -Mr. JENNER. To the best of your present recollection are the statements -and the testimony you gave, you have given so far, before the -Commission consistent with statements you have given to the FBI, to -Secret Service, to magazine reporters, editors, to anyone? - -Mrs. PAINE. The statements I have given here are fully consistent with -anything I have said before except that the statement here has been -much fuller than any single previous statement. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have testified to matters and things before the -Commission about which, which you did not relate or even had occasion -to relate in your mind, at least, to FBI agents, to Secret Service -agents and to the others that you have identified in general terms? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you and I had the opportunity, you afforded me -the privilege of speaking with you before your testimony commenced, -before the Commission. And also I think the first day of your testimony -you were gracious enough to return here to the Commission room and we -spent several hours talking? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. As a matter of fact, we left around 12:30, a quarter of one -in the morning, did we not? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, that is right, we did. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, recalling back to those periods of conferences -with me, do you have any feeling or notion whatsoever that any of -your testimony before the Commission was in any degree whatsoever, -inconsistent with anything you related to me? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no; I don't think so, not in any way. - -Mr. JENNER. Not in any way. Do you have any feeling whatsoever that -during the course of my conferences with you, outside this Commission, -that I influenced or sought to shape your testimony in any respect? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. Clearly I felt no influence from you. - -Mr. JENNER. All of the statements that you related to me were free and -voluntary on your part, and not given under any coercion, light or -heavy, as the case might be, on my part. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, there are some additional matters we wish -to examine the witness about and Representative Ford has given me a -rather long list of questions he asked me to cover. He regretted that -was necessary because of his enforced absence, and Mrs. Paine has -agreed that she would be available in the morning, and I may examine -her by way of deposition before a reporter under oath, and with that -understanding of the Commission, of you, Mr. Chairman, I would at this -moment as far as the staff is concerned, close the formal testimony -of Mrs. Paine before the Commission, with advice to you, sir, that -tomorrow morning I will cover additional matters by way of deposition. - -Senator COOPER. As I understand the matters you will go into by -deposition will not be any new evidence in the sense of substance but -more to---- - -Mr. JENNER. I can tell you what they are, it will be her background, -some of which she has now given in regard to her study of the Russian -language. - -More formal proof of her calendar, and her address book. Also her -general background which I have already mentioned. Some correspondence -between herself and her mother, and the items that Mrs. Paine has now -mentioned she would like to relate herself. - -Mrs. PAINE. One of which we took care of already. - -Mr. JENNER. One of which we took care of. We will cover those and I -was going to ask her questions tomorrow, some of which we have already -covered of Lee Harvey Oswald's personality and habits and actions. - -I am going to ask here about Mrs. Shirley Martin, who has appeared on -the scene since the assassination, and appears to be a self-appointed -investigator, and to the extent that there has been any contact between -Mrs. Paine and Mrs. Shirley Martin, and then inquire, I may not even do -this because we have covered a very great deal of the conversations and -discussions between Marina and Mrs. Paine on various possible subjects, -and I can see from my list we have covered many of them already. - -Senator COOPER. Let it be ordered that evidence will be taken this way, -with this reservation, of course, if the Commission determines after -studying the deposition that it would be necessary for her to be called -again, you would be willing to come again before the Commission to -testify. - -Mrs. PAINE. I would certainly be willing if there is any need for my -coming. - -Mr. JENNER. In addition to this, Mr. Chairman, as I think already -appears of record, I will come to Mrs. Paine's home in Irving, -Tex., sometime on Monday or Monday evening or if she finds it more -convenient, on Tuesday of next week to inquire of her with a court -reporter present relative to the curtain rod package, and I also will -make a tour of her home and as we move about her home the reporter will -record the conversation between us, questions and answers. - -Senator COOPER. Are there any further questions? - -Mr. JENNER. That is all. Thank you, sir. - -Senator COOPER. All right, then we will stand in recess subject to the -call of the Chairman of the Commission. - -(Translations of letters introduced in evidence in the course of Mrs. -Paine's testimony are reproduced in the exhibit volumes.) - - - - -_Tuesday, March 24, 1964_ - -TESTIMONY OF HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN, BONNIE RAY WILLIAMS, HAROLD NORMAN, -JAMES JARMAN, JR., AND ROY SANSOM TRULY - -The President's Commission met at 9 a.m., on March 24, 1964, at 200 -Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. - -Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Gerald -R. Ford, John J. McCloy, and Allen W. Dulles, members. - -Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Joseph A. Ball, -assistant counsel; David W. Belin, assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, -assistant counsel; and Charles Murray, observer. - - -TESTIMONY OF HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN - -The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will come to order. - -Mr. Brennan, in keeping with our statements, so you will know just what -the purpose of the session is, I will read a little statement to you. - -The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Howard -Leslie Brennan, Bonnie Ray Williams, James Jarman, Jr., Harold Norman, -Roy S. Truly. - -These witnesses were all in the vicinity of the Texas School Book -Depository Building at the time of the assassination of President -John F. Kennedy. They will be asked to provide the Commission with -their knowledge of the facts concerning the assassination of President -Kennedy. - -Would you please rise and be sworn? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this -Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I do. - -The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated, Mr. Brennan. - -Mr. Belin will conduct the interrogation. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, will you state your name for the record, please? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Howard Leslie Brennan. - -Mr. BELIN. Where do you live? - -Mr. BRENNAN. 6814 Woodward, Dallas 27. - -Mr. BELIN. And how old a man are you? - -Mr. BRENNAN. 45. - -Mr. BELIN. Are you married? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Family? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Two children. One grandson. - -Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation, Mr. Brennan? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Steamfitter. - -Mr. BELIN. And for whom are you employed, or by whom are you employed? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Wallace and Beard. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that a construction company? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. And let me ask you this: How long have you been a -steamfitter? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Since 1943, I believe. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you work for one employer, or do you go from job to job? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I go from job to job. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that at your direction or at the direction of any union? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Local 100 in Dallas. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, where were you on the early part of the -afternoon of November 22, 1963, say around noon or so? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I left a position behind the Book Store, which is a leased -part of Katy Yards, which we have fabrication for pipe for the Republic -Bank Building. At 12 o'clock I went to the cafeteria on the corner of -Main and Record. I believe that is it. - -Mr. BELIN. That would be at Main and Record Streets in Dallas? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. And did you have your lunch there? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. And then after lunch, where did you go? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I finished lunch and I glanced at a clock--I don't know -exactly where the clock is located--and noticed it was 12:18. So I -thought I still had a few minutes, that I might see the parade and the -President. - -I walked to the corner of Houston and Elm. - -Mr. BELIN. What route did you take to get to Houston and Elm? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I went west on Main. - -Mr. BELIN. You went west on Main from Record Street to---- - -Mr. BRENNAN. Houston. - -Mr. BELIN. Houston - -Mr. BRENNAN. And on the east side of Houston, I walked to Elm. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. BRENNAN. Crossed the street to the southwest corner of Houston and -Elm. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you have any estimate about how long it took you to get -there? - -Mr. BRENNAN. A possibility I would say more or less 4 minutes. - -Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do when you got to the southwest -corner of Houston and Elm? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I stayed around a couple of minutes. There was a man -having an epileptic fit, a possibility of 20 yards east--south of this -corner. And they were being attended by some civilians and officers, -and I believe an ambulance picked him up. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. BRENNAN. And I walked over to this retainer wall of this little -park pool and jumped up on the top ledge. - -Mr. BELIN. You jumped up on the retaining wall? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, I hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 477. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 477 for -identification.) - -Mr. BELIN. I ask you to state if you know what this is. - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Will you please tell the Commission what this is? - -Mr. BRENNAN. That is the Book Store at the corner of Houston and Elm. - -Mr. BELIN. By the Book Store, you mean the Texas School Book Depository -Building? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, do you know what---- - -Mr. BRENNAN. That is the retainer wall which I perched on. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. This is the retaining wall on which you perched. -I believe that this is actually you sitting on this retaining wall in -a picture that we took in Dallas pursuant to your showing us where you -were November 22; we took that picture on this past Friday. - -Mr. BRENNAN. That is correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Which would be the 20th of March. Is that correct? - -Mr. BRENNAN. That is correct. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. I hand you now what the reporter has marked as -Commission Exhibit 478. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 478 for -identification.) - -Mr. BELIN. I ask you to state, if you know, what this is. - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. That is the retaining wall and myself sitting on it -at Houston and Elm. - -Mr. BELIN. You remember that the photographer was standing on the front -steps of the Texas School Book Depository when that picture was taken -on the 20th of March? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I do. - -Mr. BELIN. And the camera is pointed in what direction? - -Mr. BRENNAN. South. - -Representative FORD. Are those the positions where you were sitting on -November 22? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. At about 12---- - -Mr. BRENNAN. From about 12:22 or 12:24 until the time of the -assassination. - -Representative FORD. In both pictures, that is a true---- - -Mr. BRENNAN. True location. - -Representative FORD. True location of where you were sitting November -22d? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, I am going to hand you a negative, which has -been marked as Commission Exhibit 479. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 479 for -identification.) - -Mr. BELIN. This appears to be a negative from a moving picture film. -And I will hand you a magnifying glass--the negative has been enlarged. -This negative appears to be a picture of the Presidential motorcade -on the afternoon of November 22d. I ask you to state if you can find -yourself in the crowd in the background in that picture. - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I am sitting at the same position as I was in the -picture taken Friday, with the exception, I believe, my hand is resting -on the wall, and Friday my hand, I believe, was resting on my leg. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, your legs in this picture, Exhibit 479, I notice, are -not dangling on the front side there, is that correct? - -Mr. BRENNAN. No. - -Mr. BELIN. What were you wearing on November 22d? What clothes were you -wearing? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Gray khaki work clothes, with a dark gray hard helmet. - -Mr. BELIN. Your head here appears to be the highest in the group, a -little bit left of center in the upper part of the picture, is that -correct? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Does this scene depict the scene as you recollect it on that -day, November 22d? - -Mr. BRENNAN. It does. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, could you please tell the Commission what -happened from the time you sat on that retaining wall, what you saw? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I was more or less observing the crowd and the -people in different building windows, including the fire escape across -from the Texas Book Store on the east side of the Texas Book Store, -and also the Texas Book Store Building windows. I observed quite a few -people in different windows. In particular, I saw this one man on the -sixth floor which left the window to my knowledge a couple of times. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, you say the window on the sixth floor. What building -are you referring to there? - -Mr. BRENNAN. That is the Texas Book Store. - -Mr. BELIN. I am going to ask you to circle on Exhibit 477 the -particular window that you said you saw a man leave and come back a -couple of times. - -Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I am confused here, the way this shows. But I -believe this is the sixth floor, the way those windows are built there -right at the present. I am confused whether this is the same window. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean because some windows are open below it? - -Mr. BRENNAN. No. The way the building is built, it seems like this is -more or less a long window with a divider in the middle. - -Mr. BELIN. Here is a marking pencil. Will you just mark the window that -you believe you saw the man. - -All right. - -And do you want to put a letter "A", if you would, by that. - -All right, now you have marked on Commission Exhibit 477 a circle with -the letter "A" to show the window that you saw a man in, I believe you -said, at least two times come back and forth. - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see any other people in any other windows that you -can recollect? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Not on that floor. - -There was no other person on that floor that ever came to the window -that I noticed. - -There were people on the next floor down, which is the fifth floor, -colored guys. In particular, I only remember two that I identified. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you want to mark the window with the circle that you -believe you saw some Negro people on the fifth floor. Could you do that -with this marking pencil on Exhibit 477, please? - -Mr. BRENNAN. The two that I identified, I believe, was in this window. - -Mr. BELIN. You want to put a "B" on that one? - -Now, after you saw the man--well, just tell what else you saw during -that afternoon. - -Mr. BRENNAN. Well, as the parade came by, I watched it from a distance -of Elm and Main Street, as it came on to Houston and turned the corner -at Houston and Elm, going down the incline towards the railroad -underpass. And after the President had passed my position, I really -couldn't say how many feet or how far, a short distance I would say, I -heard this crack that I positively thought was a backfire. - -Mr. BELIN. You thought it was backfire? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Of a motorcycle. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you observe or hear? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Well, then something, just right after this explosion, -made me think that it was a firecracker being thrown from the Texas -Book Store. And I glanced up. And this man that I saw previous was -aiming for his last shot. - -Mr. BELIN. This man you saw previous? Which man are you talking about -now? - -Mr. BRENNAN. The man in the sixth story window. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you describe just exactly what you saw when you saw -him this last time? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Well, as it appeared to me he was standing up and resting -against the left window sill, with gun shouldered to his right -shoulder, holding the gun with his left hand and taking positive aim -and fired his last shot. As I calculate a couple of seconds. He drew -the gun back from the window as though he was drawing it back to his -side and maybe paused for another second as though to assure hisself -that he hit his mark, and then he disappeared. - -And, at the same moment, I was diving off of that firewall and to the -right for bullet protection of this stone wall that is a little higher -on the Houston side. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you. What kind of a gun did you see in that -window? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I am not an expert on guns. It was, as I could observe, -some type of a high-powered rifle. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not it had any kind of a scope on -it? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I did not observe a scope. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not it had one? Do you know -whether it did or not, or could you observe that it definitely did or -definitely did not, or don't you know? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I do not know if it had a scope or not. - -Mr. BELIN. I believe you said you thought the man was standing. What do -you believe was the position of the people on the fifth floor that you -saw--standing or sitting? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I thought they were standing with their elbows on the -window sill leaning out. - -Mr. BELIN. At the time you saw this man on the sixth floor, how much of -the man could you see? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I could see--at one time he came to the window and -he sat sideways on the window sill. That was previous to President -Kennedy getting there. And I could see practically his whole body, from -his hips up. But at the time that he was firing the gun, a possibility -from his belt up. - -Mr. BELIN. How much of the gun do you believe that you saw? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I calculate 70 to 85 percent of the gun. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know what direction the gun was pointing. - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. And what direction was the gun pointing when you saw it? - -Mr. BRENNAN. At somewhat 30 degrees downward and west by south. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know down what street it was pointing? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. Down Elm Street toward the railroad underpasses. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, up to the time of the shots, did you observe anything -else that you have not told us about here that you can think of right -now? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Well, not of any importance. I don't remember anything -else except---- - -Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. How many shots did you hear? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Positively two. I do not recall a second shot---- - -Mr. BELIN. By a second shot, you mean a middle shot between the time -you heard the first noise and the last noise? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; that is right. I don't know what made me think that -there was firecrackers throwed out of the Book Store unless I did hear -the second shot, because I positively thought the first shot was a -backfire, and subconsciously I must have heard a second shot, but I do -not recall it. I could not swear to it. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you describe the man you saw in the window on the -sixth floor? - -Mr. BRENNAN. To my best description, a man in his early thirties, fair -complexion, slender but neat, neat slender, possibly 5-foot 10. - -Mr. BELIN. About what weight? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Oh, at--I calculated, I think, from 160 to 170 pounds. - -Mr. BELIN. A white man? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what kind of clothes he was wearing? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Light colored clothes, more of a khaki color. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the color of his hair? - -Mr. BRENNAN. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, I believe you said that after the last shot you jumped -off this masonry structure on which you were sitting. Why did you jump -off? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Well, it occurred to me that there might be more than one -person, that it was a plot which could mean several people, and I knew -beyond reasonable doubt that there were going to be bullets flying from -every direction. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after that? Or what did you see? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I observed to my thinking that they were directing their -search towards the west side of the building and down Houston Street. - -Mr. BELIN. When you say "they", who do you mean? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Law-enforcement officers. - -Mr. BELIN. By the west side of the building, you mean towards the -underpass or railroad tracks? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. After you saw that, what did you do? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I knew I had to get to someone quick to tell them where -the man was. So I ran or I walked--there is a possibility I ran, -because I have a habit of, when something has to be done in a hurry, -I run. And there was one officer standing at the corner of the Texas -Book Store on the street. It didn't seem to me he was going in any -direction. He was standing still. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do or what did you say to him? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I asked him to get me someone in charge, a Secret Service -man or an FBI. That it appeared to me that they were searching in the -wrong direction for the man that did the shooting. - -And he was definitely in the building on the sixth floor. - -I did not say on the sixth floor. Correction there. - -I believe I identified the window as one window from the top. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. BRENNAN. Because, at that time, I did not know how many story -building it was. - -Representative FORD. But you did say to the policeman it was a window -on the second floor from the top? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. And then what happened? - -Mr. BRENNAN. He---- - -The CHAIRMAN. May I ask there. By the second floor from the top, do you -mean the one directly underneath the top floor? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Underneath the top floor, excluding the roof, yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. And then what happened, sir? - -Mr. BRENNAN. He said, "Just a minute." And he had to give some orders -or something on the east side of the building on Houston Street. And -then he had taken me to, I believe, Mr. Sorrels, an automobile sitting -in front of the Texas Book Store. - -Mr. BELIN. And then what happened there? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I related my information and there was a few minutes of -discussion, and Mr. Sorrels had taken me then across the street to the -sheriff's building. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you describe the man that you saw in the window? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I believe I did. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, later that afternoon, or the next day, did -you have occasion to go down to the Dallas Police Station to try to -identify any person? - -Mr. BRENNAN. That evening, the Secret Service picked me up, Mr. -Patterson, I believe, at 6 o'clock, at my home, and taken me to the -Dallas Police Station. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Could you tell us what happened there, please? - -Mr. BRENNAN. If I might add a part, that I left out a couple of minutes -ago---- - -Mr. BELIN. Go right ahead, sir. - -Mr. BRENNAN. As Mr. Sorrels and some more men were discussing this, I -mentioned these two colored guys. - -Mr. BELIN. Yes. - -Mr. BRENNAN. Came out of the book store, running down the steps. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean the two---- - -Mr. BRENNAN. That I had previously saw on the fifth floor. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. BRENNAN. And I immediately identified these two boys to the -officers and Mr. Sorrels as being on the fifth floor. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you have anything else you wish to add now? - -Mr. BRENNAN. No; that concludes that. - -Mr. McCLOY. They were running out of the building? - -Mr. BRENNAN. They came running down the front steps of the building on -the Elm street side. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did they then disappear in the crowd? - -Mr. BRENNAN. No; they took them in custody, I suppose, and questioned -them. - -Representative FORD. The law enforcement officers stopped them, and you -did what, then? - -Mr. BRENNAN. No. I believe Mr. Sorrels or the Secret Service man -stopped them. - -I am not sure, but I don't believe an officer of the police department -stopped them. - -Representative FORD. But you were standing on the steps of the Texas -School Book Depository Building talking to whom? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Mr. Sorrels and another man, and I believe there was an -officer standing there, a police officer. - -Representative FORD. And these two Negroes came out of the front door? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. And you did what then? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I---- - -Representative FORD. Spoke to Mr. Sorrels? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Spoke to Mr. Sorrels, and told him that those were the -two colored boys that was on the fifth floor, or on the next floor -underneath the man that fired the gun. - -Representative FORD. You positively identified them? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I did, at that time. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else now up to the time you got down to -the Dallas Police Station? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Well, nothing except that up until that time, through -my entire life, I could never remember what a colored person looked -like if he got out of my sight. And I always thought that if I had to -identify a colored person I could not. But by coincidence that one time -I did recognize those two boys. - -Representative FORD. Did those two Negro men say in your presence that -they had been in the fifth floor window? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I don't recall. I don't recall. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else, sir, now up to the time you got down -to the Dallas Police Station? - -Mr. BRENNAN. On Friday evening, you are speaking of? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes. - -Mr. BRENNAN. No. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -What happened when you got down to the Dallas Police Station? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Mr. Patterson, if I am correct in the Secret Service that -picked me up, directed me to go to the fourth floor, a certain room on -that floor. - -(At this point, Mr. Warren and Representative Ford withdrew from the -hearing room.) - -Mr. BRENNAN. I later was introduced to several men--Captain Fritz in -Mr. Sorrels' office, and several more men. I do not remember their -names. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Before I go any further, do you remember the name of the officer you -talked to in front of the School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I don't believe I ever heard it. I do not remember his -name. - -Mr. BELIN. Are you sure of the names of the Secret Service men you -talked to? I believe you mentioned the name Sorrels. - -Mr. BRENNAN. I do not know the other man's name. - -Mr. BELIN. You believe one of them was Sorrels? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I believe one of them was Sorrels. - -Mr. BELIN. I think for the record---- - -Mr. BRENNAN. That is at the building. - -Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. - -I think we should offer and introduce Commission Exhibits 477, 478, and -479. - -Mr. DULLES. The Chief Justice has asked me to preside in his absence -this morning. - -They shall be admitted. - -(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission -Exhibits Nos. 477, 478 and 479, were received in evidence.) - -Mr. BELIN. By the way, Mr. Brennan, I note that you have glasses with -you here today. - -Were you wearing glasses at the time of the incident that you related -here? - -Mr. BRENNAN. No. I only use glasses to see fine print and more -especially the Bible and blueprint. - -Mr. BELIN. And have you had your eyes checked within the past 2 or 3 -years? - -Mr. BRENNAN. These here were prescriptioned, I believe, a possibility -less than a year before the incident. - -Mr. DULLES. Does that mean you are farsighted? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. BELIN. Has there been anything that has happened since the time of -November 22, 1963, that has changed your eyesight in any way? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What has happened? - -Mr. BRENNAN. The last of January I got both eyes sandblasted. - -Mr. BELIN. This is January of 1964? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. And I had to be treated by a Doctor Black, I believe, -in the Medical Arts Building, through the company. And I was completely -blind for about 6 hours. - -Mr. BELIN. How is your eyesight today? - -Mr. BRENNAN. He says it is not good. - -Mr. BELIN. But this occurred January of this year, is that correct? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, taking you down to the Dallas Police Station, I believe -you said you talked to Captain Fritz. And then what happened? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I was just more or less introduced to him in Mr. -Sorrels' room, and they told me they were going to conduct a lineup and -wanted me to view it, which I did. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how many people were in the lineup? - -Mr. BRENNAN. No; I don't. A possibility seven more or less one. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Did you see anyone in the lineup you recognized? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. And what did you say? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I told Mr. Sorrels and Captain Fritz at that time that -Oswald--or the man in the lineup that I identified looking more like a -closest resemblance to the man in the window than anyone in the lineup. - -Mr. BELIN. Were the other people in the lineup, do you remember--were -they all white, or were there some Negroes in there, or what? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I do not remember. - -Mr. BELIN. As I understand your testimony, then, you said that you told -him that this particular person looked the most like the man you saw on -the sixth floor of the building there. - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. In the meantime, had you seen any pictures of Lee Harvey -Oswald on television or in the newspapers? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, on television. - -Mr. BELIN. About when was that, do you believe? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I believe I reached home quarter to three or something of -that, 15 minutes either way, and I saw his picture twice on television -before I went down to the police station for the lineup. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, is there anything else you told the officers at the -time of the lineup? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I told them I could not make a positive -identification. - -Mr. BELIN. When you told them that, did you ever later tell any officer -or investigating person anything different? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. When did that happen? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I believe some days later--I don't recall exactly--and I -believe the Secret Service man identified hisself as being Williams, -I believe, from Houston. I won't swear to that--whether his name was -Williams or not. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. BRENNAN. And he could have been an FBI. As far as I remember, it -could have been FBI instead of Secret Service. - -But I believe it was a Secret Service man from Houston. - -And I---- - -Mr. BELIN. What did he say to you and what did you say to him? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Well, he asked me--he said, "You said you couldn't make a -positive identification." - -He said, "Did you do that for security reasons personally, or couldn't -you?" - -And I told him I could with all honesty, but I did it more or less for -security reasons--my family and myself. - -Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by security reasons for your family and -yourself? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I believe at that time, and I still believe it was a -Communist activity, and I felt like there hadn't been more than one -eyewitness, and if it got to be a known fact that I was an eyewitness, -my family or I, either one, might not be safe. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, if you wouldn't have identified him, might he not have -been released by the police? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Beg pardon? - -Mr. BELIN. If you would not have identified that man positively, might -he not have been released by the police? - -Mr. BRENNAN. No. That had a great contributing factor--greater -contributing factor than my personal reasons was that I already knew -they had the man for murder, and I knew he would not be released. - -Mr. BELIN. The murder of whom? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Of Officer Tippit. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, what happened in between to change your mind that you -later decided to come forth and tell them you could identify him? - -Mr. BRENNAN. After Oswald was killed, I was relieved quite a bit that -as far as pressure on myself of somebody not wanting me to identify -anybody, there was no longer that immediate danger. - -Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not your having seen -Oswald on television would have affected your identification of him one -way or the other? - -Mr. BRENNAN. That is something I do not know. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, could you tell us now whether you can or cannot -positively identify the man you saw on the sixth floor window as the -same man that you saw in the police station? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I could at that time--I could, with all sincerity, -identify him as being the same man. - -Mr. BELIN. Was the man that you saw in the window firing the rifle the -same man that you had seen earlier in the window, you said at least a -couple of times, first stepping up and then going back? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. About how far were you away from that window at the time you -saw him, Mr. Brennan? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Well, at that time, I calculated 110-foot at an angle. But -closer surveillance I believe it will run close to 122 to 126 feet at -an angle. - -Mr. BELIN. I believe that on Friday we paced the distance between the -place where you were sitting and the front door of the Texas School -Book Depository Building, and it ran about---- - -Mr. BRENNAN. 93-foot. - -Representative FORD. This doesn't have to be now, but I think some time -he ought to step by step on a diagram trace his movements from the -restaurant until he left the scene of the shooting. - -Mr. BELIN. On that particular diagram, Congressman Ford, which is -Exhibit No. 361, the intersection of Main and Houston, and of Record -and Main is not shown. It would be a little bit to the south. - -Representative FORD. But he might be able to show the direction from -which he came to get on to the scene. - -Mr. BELIN. Yes; that he can do. - -Representative FORD. And then his movements from there on until he left -the area. I think it would be very helpful to tie down the precise -places he was from time to time. - -Mr. BELIN. I think he might do that right now. - -Mr. Brennan, I place in front of you Exhibit 361, and I call to your -attention that the top appears to be south rather than north, and the -arrow north is pointed towards the bottom. And you will notice at the -top here, running in what would be an east-west direction, is Elm -Street. And you can see running in a north-south direction Houston -Street, with the Texas School Book Depository Building noted here in -black. - -Do you see that? - -Mr. BRENNAN. It should be here. - -Mr. BELIN. I will turn the map around to show you north and south; we -can keep it upside down for the moment. - -This is Elm Street. To the north is Pacific. Main would be down here -off the bottom of the map. And here is Record Street right here. And -I believe you said you were at lunch at Record and Main, and then you -walked to the south. - -I wonder if you might take this pen and kind of, off the street -markings, you might start maybe down here at the bottom as to where you -had your lunch. - -Mr. BRENNAN. This is Main here. - -Mr. BELIN. Main would be running there, yes. - -If you would, put a "D" at that point. - -Now, if you would kind of on a line trace your course that you took -that day. - -All right. - -Mr. BRENNAN. I didn't go to the corner. - -Mr. BELIN. You didn't go to the corner of Elm and Houston. That would -be the southeast corner? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I noticed this man having a fit. And I came across at this -corner. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, would you put the letter "E" where you ended up -sitting. This is on Exhibit No. 361. - -Mr. BRENNAN. "E"? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes. - -Mr. BRENNAN. I believe that would be just about where the retainer wall -is. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -So you have put on Exhibit 361 the letter "E" where you were sitting -facing the School Book Depository Building. - -Representative FORD. I think that it might be helpful to trace it where -he went subsequent to that. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Subsequent to the time of the shooting, would you put a line from your -point at point "E" to where you went to talk to the police officers and -the Secret Service officers? - -Mr. BRENNAN. The retaining wall come around here and straight across -here. - -Mr. BELIN. Will you put an "F" where you talked to him? - -Mr. BRENNAN. The car was sitting here. That is where I talked to him. -This is where I contacted the officer. - -Mr. BELIN. You contacted the officer at "F". - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. And then you went over to a car. - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you put your direction to the car and put a "G" on -there? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I walked down the street hereaways with this officer. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, the point from "F" where you walked down the -street, that would be walking north on Houston? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I don't know; however, we walked down this way, but I do -remember going in that direction with the officer. - -Mr. BELIN. You went to the north on Houston? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. And then back to---- - -Mr. BELIN. Well, just put a mark in there, and cut it back, if you -could, just to show the route of you going north. - -Mr. BRENNAN. I don't know exactly however. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Will you put a mark to "G" at the end? And I believe you said that the -car that you talked to the Secret Service agent in was at point "G" -approximately? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, are these accurate or approximate locations, Mr. -Brennan? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Well, don't you have photographs of me talking to the -Secret Service men right here? - -Mr. BELIN. I don't believe so. - -Mr. BRENNAN. You should have. It was on television before I got -home--my wife saw it. - -Mr. BELIN. On television? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. At this time we do not have them. - -Do you remember what station they were on television? - -Mr. BRENNAN. No. But they had it. And I called I believe Mr. Lish who -requested that he cut those films or get them cut of the FBI. I believe -you might know about them. Somebody cut those films, because a number -of times later the same films were shown, and that part was cut. - -Mr. BELIN. Who would Mr. Lish be with? - -Mr. BRENNAN. The FBI. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -We thank you very much for that information. - -Is there anything else that you did at point "G" or anywhere else after -the time of the assassination before you went to the Sheriff's office? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I walked up the steps and stood on the outside of the -doorway. - -Mr. BELIN. Of what building? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Of the Texas Book Store, while the officers or the men -that I was with gave some more orders. And then Mr. Sorrels taken me -across to the Sheriff's office. - -Mr. DULLES. You did not go inside the building? - -Mr. BRENNAN. No; I did not. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you notice any people coming out of the front stairs of -the building after these two Negroes came out? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I recall people going in and out, but a different -picture I cannot remember. - -Representative FORD. Where were you standing when you identified the -two Negroes? - -Mr. BRENNAN. On the edge of the street, outer side of the sidewalk, -when the two colored boys came out of the building and came down the -steps. - -Mr. BELIN. Was that at point "G"? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Now, perhaps on Exhibit No. 478 you can trace your route at least along -Houston Street to the time--to the place where you were sitting. You -recognize the intersection of Main and Houston there? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Could you start there and kind of trace--well, I don't know if you can -see all of it. - -Mr. BRENNAN. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Do the best you can, you can trace along here. - -Here would be the intersection of Main and Houston. - -Mr. BRENNAN. I came down that side. Now, this street was open at that -time. - -Mr. BELIN. By this street you mean Houston Street? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I don't recall any parked cars there. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you make that line a little darker, sir, that you have -put on. - -All right. Now, at that first point, this would be---- - -Mr. BRENNAN. I believe I walked a little south there, just observing -them picking the man up. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -You have marked a line on Exhibit No. 478 heading a little bit south on -the west side of Houston street, commencing at the southwest corner of -the intersection, which is where you say you walked to watch the man -with the epileptic fit, is that it? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I didn't go up--he was almost center way of the -block here. I didn't go up that far. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -And will you put the letter "H" there, if you would? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Where I was standing watching the man? - -Mr. BELIN. Where you were standing watching the man; yes. - -Mr. BRENNAN. Right there. - -Mr. BELIN. And then where did you go from there? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Right there. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Now, you have taken a line which would be running along the south side -of Elm Street there towards the point where you are sitting, and that -is in the picture Exhibit 478. And that was the route that you took? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Put the letter "I", if you would, there, please. - -Now, on Exhibit No. 477, I wonder if you would perchance show us after -the assassination, or the shooting--you said you first went over to -another side of the wall. - -Would it be to the east or to the west there? - -Mr. BRENNAN. To the east. This right here is solid concrete. - -Mr. BELIN. Is this where you went? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -On Exhibit 477, could you put the letter "J" where you went right after -the shooting? - -All right. - -Now, I believe you said you later stood up and eventually walked across -the street to get a police officer. On Exhibit 477, could you put a -letter "K" where you believe you went to talk to this police officer, -where he was. - -It looks like there is a car there now. - -So you went from point "J" to point "K", and point "K", on Exhibit 477, -would correspond with "F" on Exhibit 361, is that right? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Now, I wonder if you could perchance show on Exhibit 477 the point that -corresponds with point "G" on Exhibit 361, which is where you said you -went to the car. - -Mr. BRENNAN. This car here--letter what? - -Mr. BELIN. "L". - -Mr. BRENNAN. That is this car here, sitting approximately where---- - -Mr. BELIN. I note that this car that you have marked the "L" is not -actually on the extreme north part of Elm, but really appears to be on -that part which is going down to the Freeway. - -Mr. BRENNAN. Oh, is that right? - -Yes; you are correct there. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, is this accurate, or was it one that you saw parked -right in front of the building? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Right next to the curb in front of the building. - -Mr. BELIN. Would it be behind--you might put the letter "M" to show the -car which it is behind now. - -Mr. BRENNAN. All right. - -Mr. BELIN. You have put the letter "M" on Exhibit 477 to show the car -behind the one which the Secret Service car was parked. - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. At this time I believe Exhibits 477, 478 and 479 should be -reoffered to show all of the markings that the witness has made on -these exhibits. - -Mr. DULLES. They shall be admitted as remarked. - -(The documents referred to, previously marked for identification as -Commission's Exhibit Nos. 477, 478, and 479 were readmitted into -evidence.) - -Mr. BELIN. And also Exhibit 361 should be reoffered. - -Mr. DULLES. What is 361? - -Mr. BELIN. It is the large chart which also has been marked on. - -Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted again, remarked. - -(The chart referred to, previously marked as Commission's Exhibit No. -361 for identification, was readmitted into evidence.) - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, in this sixth floor window, where you saw the -gun fired, did you see any objects of any kind in the window, or near -the window? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. Through the window, which I referred to as back in -the book store building, I could see stacks of boxes. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, I hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 480, which -appears to be a picture of the Texas School Book Depository Building, -which was taken shortly after this time. - -I believe on the fifth floor you can see on two of the open windows -there some people looking out, and Exhibit 481 is a picture of the east -windows on the south side of the fifth and sixth floors, and Exhibit -482 is an enlargement of 481. - -First of all, on Exhibits 481 and 482, do you recognize any of these -two persons in the fifth floor window as people you saw there? - -Mr. BRENNAN. No; I do not recognize them. - -As positive identification I cannot recognize them. - -Now, I see where there is a possibility I did make a mistake. I believe -these two colored boys was in this window, and I believe I showed on -that other exhibit that they were in this window. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -I am going to hand you now---- - -Mr. BRENNAN. The only thing I said is that they were one window over -below the man that fired the gun. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, I hand you Commission Exhibit 477, where you marked a -"B" at the point there you first said you saw the Negro men. Is this -the one you say now you might have been mistaken? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I believe I was mistaken. I believe the two men that -I identified was in this window. - -Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to the window to the east of where you have -now marked "B"? - -Mr. BRENNAN. That I am not positive of. I just remember that they were -over one window from below him, which at that time I might have thought -this was one window over. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Let me ask you this. On Exhibit 481, does the -condition of the opening of the windows in the fifth floor appear to be -that which you saw on the afternoon of November 22? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. These do. - -Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to the fifth-floor windows now? - -Mr. BRENNAN. But I don't recall this window at the time of the shooting -being that low. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, by this window you are pointing to the window on the -sixth floor? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 481. I wonder if you would mark that with the -letter "A"--if you would circle that window. And could you put an "A" -on that, if you would. - -Now, window A, on Exhibit 481, when you saw it, how high do you believe -it was open? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I believe that at the time he was firing, it was open just -like this. - -Mr. BELIN. Just like the windows on the fifth floor immediately below? - -Mr. BRENNAN. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. I note in window "A" there appear to be some boxes in -the window. To the best of your recollection, what is the fact as -to whether or not those boxes as shown in this exhibit appear to be -similar to the ones you saw on November 22? - -Mr. BRENNAN. No; I could see more boxes. - -Mr. BELIN. In the window or behind the window? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Behind the window. - -Mr. BELIN. I am talking in the window itself. - -Mr. BRENNAN. No, no. That is--I don't remember a box in the window, -these boxes I remember are stacked up behind the window, and they were -zigzagged, kind of step down, and there was a space it looked like back -of here. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, you are pointing to a space which would be on the east -side, is that right? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. When you say you don't remember---- - -Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I can see those boxes there now. I don't know -whether you can see them or not. It seems like I can see the boxes in -that picture. Am I right? - -Mr. BELIN. I don't know, sir. I can't see them on Exhibit 471. That -could be the dirty window here. - -Mr. BRENNAN. Here they are here. Those boxes there. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, here is Exhibit 482. - -First of all, I see a box on Exhibit 482, right in the window. - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I don't recall that box. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you recall that it definitely was not there, or just you -don't recall whether it was or was not there. - -Mr. BRENNAN. I do not recall that being there. So, therefore, I could -not say it definitely wasn't there. - -Mr. BELIN. You cannot say whether it was or was not? - -Mr. BRENNAN. No. - -Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 482, do you want to point an arrow to where you -believe you can see boxes back there. Or where you saw boxes. - -All right. - -Let the record show that Exhibits 480, 481, and 482 were taken by, I -believe it is, Underwood or--just a second. Thomas C. Dillard, Chief -Photographer of the Dallas Morning News, who was riding in the car with -Robert H. Jackson, who has already testified before the Commission, -and the deposition of Mr. Dillard will be taken by Mr. Ball and me in -Dallas in the first part of April. - -And that Exhibits 480, 481, and 482 were taken shortly after the firing -of the third shot. I think that this should appear in the record. - -I think it should also appear in the record that Exhibit 479 is one of -the frames from the Abraham Zapruder movie film. - -Mr. Brennan, from the time you first saw the Presidential motorcade -turning north on Houston from Main, did you observe the window from -which you say you saw the last shot fired at any time prior to the time -you saw the rifle in the window? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, what I am saying is this. You saw the motorcade turn? - -Mr. BRENNAN. No; not after I saw the motorcade, I did not observe a man -or rifle in the window. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you observe the window at all until after you heard that -first sound which was a backfire or firecracker, at least you thought -it was? - -Mr. BRENNAN. No. - -Mr. BELIN. So you did not observe the window and would not know whether -or not there was any man in the window during that period? - -Mr. BRENNAN. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, let the record be clear. The first sound you first -thought was what? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Backfire of a motorcycle. - -Mr. BELIN. And then you later said something about a firecracker. - -Did that have reference to the first shot, or something in between the -first and last? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I positively thought that the first shot was a backfire -of a motorcycle. And then something made me think that someone was -throwing firecrackers from the Texas Book Store, and a possibility it -was the second shot. But I glanced up or looked up and I saw this man -taking aim for his last shot. The first shot and last shot is my only -positive recollection of two shots. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the rifle explode? Did you see the flash of -what was either the second or the third shot? - -Mr. BRENNAN. No. - -Mr. McCLOY. Could you see that he had discharged the rifle? - -Mr. BRENNAN. No. For some reason I did not get an echo at any time. The -first shot was positive and clear and the last shot was positive and -clear, with no echo on my part. - -Mr. McCLOY. Yes. - -But you saw him aim? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the rifle discharge, did you see the recoil or -the flash? - -Mr. BRENNAN. No. - -Mr. McCLOY. But you heard the last shot. - -Mr. BRENNAN. The report; yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Could you see who or what he was aiming at? You testified -as to the declination of the rifle, the angle of the rifle. But could -you see what he was firing at? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Subconsciously I knew what he was firing at. But -immediately I looked towards where President Kennedy's car should -be, and there was something obstructing my view. I could not see the -President or his car at that time. - -And I still don't know what was obstructing my view, because I was high -enough that I should have been able to see it. I could not see it. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, on one of your interviews with the FBI, they -record a statement that you estimated your distance between the point -you were seated and the window from which the shots were fired as -approximately 90 yards. - -At that time did you make that statement to the FBI--and this would be -on 22 November. To the best of your recollection? - -Mr. BRENNAN. There was a mistake in the FBI recording there. He had -asked me the question of how far the shot was fired from too, and also -he had asked me the question of how far I was from the shot that was -fired. I calculated the distance at the angle his gun was resting that -he must have been firing 80 to 90 yards. - -Now, I---- - -Mr. BELIN. You mean 80 or 90 yards from where? - -Mr. BRENNAN. From Kennedy's position. - -Mr. BELIN. But could you see Kennedy's position? - -Mr. BRENNAN. No; I could not. But I could see before and after. - -Mr. BELIN. In that same interview, you stated that you attended a -lineup at the Dallas Police Department at which you picked Lee Harvey -Oswald as the person most closely resembling the man you observed with -the rifle in the window of the Texas School Book Depository, but you -stated you could not positively identify Oswald as the person you saw -fire the rifle. - -Now, is this an accurate recording of the statement you made to the FBI -on or about November 22? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I believe---- - -Mr. BELIN. In other words, that part of the FBI statement is correct, -as to what you told them? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What was the fact as to whether you could or could not -identify the person, apart from what you told them? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Why did I---- - -Mr. BELIN. No. - -What was the fact. Could you or could you not actually identify this -person as the man you saw firing the rifle? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I believed I could with all fairness and sincerity. As you -asked me the question before, had I saw those pictures of Oswald prior, -which naturally I don't know whether it confused me or made me feel as -though I was taking unfair advantage or what. But with all fairness, I -could have positively identified the man. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, on December 17 there appears to be another interview -that you had with an agent of the FBI in which you at that time, -according to this report, stated that you could now say that you were -sure that Lee Harvey Oswald was the person you saw in the window at -the time of the assassination, but that when you first saw him in a -lineup you felt positive identification was was not necessary, because -it was your understanding that Oswald had already been charged with the -slaying of Officer Tippit, and you also said that another factor was -that you had observed his picture on television prior to the time of -identification, and that that tended to cloud any identification you -made of Oswald at the police department. - -Now, does this December 17 interview accurately record what you told -the FBI with regard to that matter of identification? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I believe it does. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, later we have an interview on January 7 with the FBI in -which at that time the interview records that while you were at home -and before you returned to view the lineup, which included the possible -assassin of President Kennedy, you observed Lee Harvey Oswald's picture -on television, and that you said that this, of course, did not help you -retain the original impression of the man in the window with the rifle, -but that upon seeing Lee Harvey Oswald in the police lineup, you felt -that Oswald most resembled the man whom you had seen in the window. - -Now, is that what you told the man on January 7--that Oswald most -resembled the man that you had seen in the window? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Does that mean you could not give him a positive -identification at that time, but could merely say he most resembled the -man in the window? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I felt that I could. But for personal reasons I -didn't feel like that at that moment it was compulsory and I did not -want to give a positive identification at that time. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, this last interview was on January 7th. You still felt -these personal reasons as recently as January 7th, then? - -Mr. BRENNAN. No. I felt better about it. This is the first guy that---- - -Mr. BELIN. No. I am referring now to the last interview you had on -January 7th, in which it says that you felt that Oswald most resembled -the man you had seen in the window. - -Is that what you told them? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -You mean told this man? - -Mr. BELIN. On January 7th; yes, sir. - -Mr. BRENNAN. No; I don't believe I told this man in those words. I told -him what I had said at the lineup. But he might have misinterpreted -that I was saying that again. - -Mr. BELIN. In other words--well, I don't want to say in other words. - -When you said on January 7th that upon seeing Lee Harvey Oswald in the -lineup you felt that Oswald most resembled the man whom you had seen in -the window? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, I am referring to a statement to the FBI on January 7th -of this year. - -Mr. BRENNAN. All right. - -Mr. BELIN. By that, did you have reference to your own personal -recollection, or what you said at the time of the Dallas Police -Department lineup? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I believe I was referring to what I said at the Dallas -Police Department. - -Mr. BELIN. On January 7th of this year, what is the fact as to whether -or not you could give--whether or not you felt on November 22d that the -man you saw in the window was the man you saw in the police lineup--not -what you told him, but what was the fact? - -Mr. BRENNAN. On January 7th, at that time I did believe that I could -give positive identification as well as I did later. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean in the December interview? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this: You said you saw the man with the rifle -on the sixth floor, and then you said you saw some Negroes on the fifth -floor. - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you get as good a look at the Negroes as you got at the -man with the rifle? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you feel that your recollection of the Negroes at that -time was as good as the one with the man with the rifle? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes--at that time, it was. Now--the boys rode up with me -on the plane--of course I recognize them now. But as far as a few days -later, I wouldn't positively say that I could identify them. I did -identify them that day. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, for instance, when I showed you Exhibit 482, you said -that you could not identify---- - -Mr. BRENNAN. Well, the picture is not clear enough, as far as distinct -profiles. - -Mr. DULLES. Mr. Belin, I don't think you have asked they be admitted as -yet. - -Mr. BELIN. No, sir. I have one more mark to make on them, sir. - -Mr. BRENNAN. The pictures there are not clear enough, the profile is -not distinct enough. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Now, I wonder if you would take on Exhibit 482, if you can kind of mark -the way the rifle was at the time you saw it. - -Here is a red pencil. If you could put on Exhibit 482 the direction -that you saw the rifle pointing, sir. - -Mr. BRENNAN. I would say more at this angle. Maybe not as far out as -this. - -Mr. BELIN. You have put a line, and I have tried to make a little bit -darker line. - -Mr. BRENNAN. That is as close as I can get it. - -Mr. BELIN. This is on Exhibit 482--as to the angle at which you saw the -rifle. And you say perhaps it wasn't out of the window as far as this -line goes on Exhibit 482, is that correct? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Right. - -Representative FORD. That is the angle that you believe the rifle was -pointed? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. And that is from the area in the window from which the -rifle was pointing? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not any part of the rifle was -protruding out of the window? - -Mr. BRENNAN. On a straight view like that it looked like it was. - -But as I have told investigating officers prior, a person would have to -be at an angle to tell how much was protruding out of the window. It -did look at that time that as much was protruding out of the window as -there was in the window. - -Mr. BELIN. At this time, we offer and introduce into evidence Exhibits -480, 481, and 482. - -Mr. DULLES. They will be accepted. - -(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission -Exhibits Nos. 480, 481, and 482 were received in evidence.) - -Mr. McCLOY. I have one or two questions, if you are finished, Mr. Belin. - -Mr. BELIN. One more question, sir. - -Did you ever tell anyone that you were 90 yards away from that window -where you saw the gun? - -Mr. BRENNAN. No. It was a misunderstanding. My first calculation was -that I was about 75-foot out from the window, and the calculation of -the window 75-foot up. So the hypotenuse there would be approximately -110-foot. That was my first calculation. - -But since we made a step of the grounds Friday, I was farther out than -75 feet. Approximately 93 feet is what we calculated Friday. - -Mr. BELIN. One additional question, sir. - -When did you first see Exhibit 479? - -Mr. BRENNAN. This morning. - -Mr. BELIN. This morning here. - -And on Exhibit 479, who picked the person out as being you in that -picture? Was it you or was it I? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I did. - -I might add that prior to Friday, no one had ever gave me any -information on your evidence whatsoever. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, on Friday you and I met for the first time in -Dallas--that would be on March 20th. - -Mr. BRENNAN. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. And we sat down and I asked you just to tell me what -happened, is that correct? - -Mr. BRENNAN. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. Did I ask you a general question and say, "What happened?" -Or did I just ask you repeated questions? - -Mr. BRENNAN. No. - -Well, you more or less told me to tell it in my own way exactly what -happened. - -Mr. BELIN. And you just started to tell it, is that correct? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I believe that sums it up. - -Mr. BELIN. And then we then went outside where you pointed out the -place where you were sitting? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the doctor that examined your eyes when you -had them examined? - -Mr. BRENNAN. He is in Port Lavaca. He is the only leading optometrist -there. - -Mr. BELIN. Would it be Dr. Howard R. Bonar? - -Mr. BRENNAN. That is right. - -How did you find that out? - -Mr. BERLIN. Well, sir, it is on one of your interviews here. - -Mr. BRENNAN. Had that question been asked me before? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes, it had. On November 22, when you advised that you wore -glasses for reading purposes only. - -Mr. BRENNAN. That is right, the FBI, Mr. Lish, right? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. That examination was before the sand blasting, of course. - -Mr. BRENNAN. Oh, yes, sir. The sandblasting wasn't until January or -early February of this year. - -Representative FORD. Did you have your glasses on at the time of the -assassination? - -Mr. BRENNAN. No. - -Mr. McCLOY. You can see better at that distance without your glasses -than with them? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Oh, yes, much better. Oh, I could put these glasses on and -it is just like looking through a window pane. The upper part is just -regular clear. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you have some questions, Mr. McCloy? - -Mr. McCLOY. Yes; I have some questions. - -You said you went across the street after having sort of jumped off -this retaining wall in order to protect yourself against the possible -fusilade of shots. - -Mr. BRENNAN. Right. - -Mr. McCLOY. Then you went across and picked up a police officer, is -that right? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Right, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. And then you went with him to the steps of the Texas School -Book Depository? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Eventually, yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. How long did it take you, do you think, from the time of -the--when you first got up--from the time of the last shot, how long -would you estimate it would be before you got to the steps of the Texas -Book Depository? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I could not calculate that, because before I got to the -steps of the Texas Book Store, I had already talked to this officer, -and he had taken me to the Secret Service men, I had talked to them. - -Mr. McCLOY. And you stayed behind the retaining wall for a little while -until you saw the coast was clear? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Just seconds. I would say from the time the last shot was -fired, and me diving off the wall there, and getting around on the -solid side, and then running across to the officer, the time element is -hard to figure, but it would still be in seconds. - -Mr. McCLOY. Then when you got to the officer he took you to a Secret -Service man, and then the Secret Service man and you were on the steps -of the depository? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -Well, we talked at the car, and then when these two colored guys came -down the stairway onto the street, I pointed to them, and identified -them as being the two that was in the floor below that floor. And then -Mr. Sorrels, I think, had to give some orders to someone in the book -store. He walked me up the steps, and I stood on the top landing. - -Mr. McCLOY. When you were standing on those steps, did you see anyone -pass you, or anyone that you could recognize as being--as looking -somewhat like the man that you had seen in the window with the rifle? - -Mr. BRENNAN. No, I did not. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you give any estimate--was it a matter of 5 minutes, 6 -minutes, 7 minutes? In general, how long did it take you from the time -that you left where you were protecting yourself to the time you were -on the front steps? What order of magnitude? 10 minutes? - -Mr. BRENNAN. No; it was a shorter time than that. - -I talked to Mr. Sorrels--I believe it was Mr. Sorrels--and the Secret -Service men there--I don't believe I talked to them more than 3 to 5 -minutes. - -Mr. McCLOY. But you had prior to that time talked to the police officer? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. You said the police officer said, "Wait a minute." - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. How long was that? - -Mr. BRENNAN. That was quick, too. He gave his orders to some one on -that side of the building, and then he had taken me to the Secret -Service man. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you have the feeling that the police had put a cordon -around the building, and were they keeping people in, or were people -coming in and out while you were there? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I did, by the time I got on the steps of the Texas -Book Store--I felt like that the place was completely surrounded and -blocked by then. But at the time I ran across to this officer, I may -have been completely wrong, they may have--the Secret Service men and -police department, too, may have been directing their search to the -building, but I felt as though they were directing their search to the -west side of the building. - -Mr. McCLOY. You testified, I believe, that you saw them directing their -search towards the wrong side of the building, so to speak? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. That was my thoughts. - -Mr. McCLOY. And so that would indicate that at that time they were not -blocking that particular entrance at the east side of the building, -below the window that you saw the shot fired from? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Not according to my calculations. - -Mr. DULLES. Any other questions? - -Representative FORD. Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that perhaps in the -case of Mr. Brennan and other witnesses, if a biography prepared by the -individual, looked over by the staff, would not be helpful to include -in the record--I don't mean a biography in great depth, but at least an -outline of the individual's background--I think it would be helpful for -the record. - -Mr. DULLES. We have certain information. - -Mr. BELIN. We have certain information in the record right now which we -took at the very beginning of the session here this morning. - -Representative FORD. Yes, I was present. But I think it is important to -have more of a background of his education, experience, and I think it -is wise to have it for all of the witnesses--not in great depth, but at -least a background to show some biographical information. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you care to have that prepared by the witness himself, -or here in the record? - -Representative FORD. I would suggest that it be prepared initially by -the witness, checked over by the staff, and then mutually agreed as -acceptable through the witness, and then insert it in the record. - -Mr. DULLES. Prior to his testimony? - -Representative FORD. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you be willing to furnish us with some kind of an -autobiographical sketch of yourself--your date and place of birth, -where you went to school, your education, your jobs that you have had, -and perhaps it also should include some kind of a physical description -as to your approximate height and weight and what-have-you? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Not at all. But you sure going to be confused on my jobs, -sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Because you have gone from one job to another? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I worked under the union constitution for the last -20 years, and I have worked for many a contractor. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean you just work on contract, and when you are through -with that particular construction job, the union would send you to -another construction job? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. Usually a contractor wants me to go to the State of -Washington, like I did in California, or he wants me to go to Utah or -somewhere like that. - -Mr. DULLES. I don't think we need all that detail. - -Mr. BELIN. In other words, you have been a steamfitter. - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir. - -With the exception of the possibility of 2 years I was in business in -California, private business. - -Mr. McCLOY. Are you a member of a church? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. What church are you a member of? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Baptist. - -Mr. McCLOY. You testified you were a Bible reader. - -Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I don't read it as much as I should. - -Mr. McCLOY. When you do, you have to wear glasses? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Any other questions? - -Mr. BELIN. There have been two or three other questions that have come -up here, sir. - -One question--when we visited on Friday in Dallas, what is the fact as -to whether or not I told you what to say or you yourself just told me -what you wanted to tell me? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I told you--you did not instruct me what to say at all. I -told you in the best words I could to explain exactly my movements and -what happened. - -Representative FORD. And here today you have testified freely on your -own? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Right, I have. - -Mr. DULLES. Anything you would like to add? - -Mr. BELIN. One other question, sir. - -For the record, would you repeat what I would say would be a full -statement of the reasons which caused you to state in your December -interview to the FBI that you had always been convinced that the man -you saw in the lineup was the man you saw firing the rifle, whereas on -November 22d you declined to give positive identification. Could you -give all of the reasons, please? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Well, as I previously have said, I had saw the man in -the window and I had saw him on television. He looked much younger on -television than he did from my picture of him in the window--not much -younger, but a few years younger--say 5 years younger. - -And then I felt that my family could be in danger, and I, myself, might -be in danger. And since they already had the man for murder, that -he wasn't going to be set free to escape and get out of the country -immediately, and I could very easily sooner than the FBI or the Secret -Service wanted me, my testimony in, I could very easily get in touch -with them, if they didn't get in touch with me, and to see that the man -didn't get loose. - -Representative FORD. When you got home, about 3 o'clock, on November -22d, that is when you did get home---- - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -Representative FORD. Was your wife there? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -Representative FORD. Did you and your wife discuss any aspects of the -assassination and your being present, more or less, at the scene of the -assassination? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; we discussed it. We talked--I talked of moving -her and my grandson, which was living with us at that time and my -daughter--moving them out of town somewhere in secrecy. - -Representative FORD. Why did you talk about moving your wife and your -grandson out of town on this afternoon on November 22d? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Because I had already more or less given a detailed -description of the man, and I talked to the Secret Service and gave -them my statement, and they had convinced me that it would be strictly -confidential and all that. But still I felt like if I was the only -eyewitness, that anything could happen to me or my family. - -So that was just about the length of our discussion of it. - -She seemed to think that a person can't get away--wherever they go. - -Representative FORD. Did you talk to anybody else between 3 p.m., -November 22d and the time when one of the law enforcement agents came -out and picked you up that day? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Not to tell--not to give any information out. - -My wife and I went to the bank in Mesquite that evening, and my -daughter was at home. And I told her if anyone called to first have -them identify themselves, and find out the nature of their business -that they wanted me for, and if it was the FBI or the Secret Service, -to tell them where they could contact me. - -And so we were in the bank, I believe, talking to the vice president -that evening. My daughter called and said Mr. Sorrels had called, and -that he had requested her to get the word to me to call him. And she -called me at the bank, and then I asked the secretary to get the number -for me. And I called Mr. Sorrels, and Mr. Sorrels told me there would -be a man to pick me up at 6 o'clock promptly. - -Representative FORD. 6 p.m., November 22d. - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; that is right. - -Representative FORD. And he did pick you up, and you did go down to the -police station? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. When you got back from the police station, did you have any -further conversation with your wife about what you saw in the police -station? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. But I don't believe I explained to her full details. -She probably remembers whether I did or not, but I don't. I believe I -just told her that I would not identify, make positive identification. -I believe that is all I told her. - -Mr. BELIN. That you would not, or that you could not? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I believe I told her I would not. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the specific color of any shirt that the man -with the rifle was wearing? - -Mr. BRENNAN. No, other than light, and a khaki color--maybe in khaki. I -mean other than light color--not a real white shirt, in other words. If -it was a white shirt, it was on the dingy side. - -Mr. BELIN. I am handing you what the court reporter has marked as -Commission Exhibit 150. - -Does this look like it might or might not be the shirt, or can you make -at this time any positive identification of any kind? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I would have expected it to be a little lighter--a shade -or so lighter. - -Mr. BELIN. Than Exhibit 150? - -Mr. BRENNAN. That is the best of my recollection. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Could you see the man's trousers at all? - -Do you remember any color? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I remembered them at that time as being similar to the -same color of the shirt or a little lighter. And that was another thing -that I called their attention to at the lineup. - -Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by that? - -Mr. BRENNAN. That he was not dressed in the same clothes that I saw the -man in the window. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean with reference to the trousers or the shirt? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Well, not particularly either. In other words, he just -didn't have the same clothes on. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. BRENNAN. I don't know whether you have that in the record or not. I -am sure you do. - -Mr. DULLES. Any further questions? - -I guess there are no more questions, Mr. Belin. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, sir, we want to thank you for your cooperation with -the Commission. - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much for coming here. - - -TESTIMONY OF BONNIE RAY WILLIAMS - -Mr. BELIN. Our next witness is Mr. Bonnie Ray Williams. - -Mr. DULLES. Mr. Williams, the purpose of the hearing today is to take -the testimony of you and certain others whose names are mentioned here. - -You and the other witnesses were all in the vicinity of the Texas -School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination of -President John F. Kennedy. - -You will be asked to provide the Commission with your knowledge of the -facts concerning the assassination of President Kennedy. - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Would you rise, sir? - -Do your swear that the evidence you will give is the truth, the whole -truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, I do. - -Mr. BALL. Mr. Williams, how old are you? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I am 20 years old. - -Mr. BALL. Where do you live? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I live in Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. BALL. What is your address? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. 1502 Avenue B, Apartment B. - -Mr. BALL. Are you married? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, I am. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you born? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I was born in Carthage, Tex. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go to school in Texas? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, I did. - -Mr. BALL. How far through school? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. All the way. - -Mr. BALL. Graduated from high school? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Where? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Marshall, Tex., and I finished high school summer course -in Dallas, Texas, Madison High. - -Mr. BALL. What year did you get out of high school? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. 1962. - -Mr. BALL. And where did you go to work after that? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I went to work at Marriott's Motor Hotel. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do there? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I started off as a dishwasher. Then they put me on -as a fry cook. - -Mr. BALL. And how long did you stay there? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. About 6 or 7 months. - -Mr. BALL. Then where did you go to work? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I went to work at Union Terminal Building, baggage -department. - -Mr. BALL. How long did you work there? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I worked there about a year. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of work did you do there? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I was a mail separator. - -Mr. BALL. Then where did you go? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Then I found this job at the Texas School Book Depository. - -Mr. BALL. When did you get that job? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Around about September 8th. - -Mr. BALL. What year? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. 1963. - -Mr. BALL. How did you happen to go there to get the job? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, my wife was expecting, and I just wanted a day -job--I was working at night. So I just went looking for a day job, and -I happened to come down that way. - -Mr. DULLES. Were you going to school in the daytime? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No. - -Mr. DULLES. This is after you finished school? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. All this took place after I finished school. - -Mr. BALL. You finished school when? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. 1962. - -Mr. BALL. And you had these three---- - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; and I had a part-time job at a construction -company. I don't remember the name of it. But it was just for about a -week. - -Mr. BALL. When you were going to school? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No. That was the same time I was working at Marriott's -Motel. - -Mr. BALL. Did you work while you went to school? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I delivered the Dallas morning newspaper sometimes, and -little odd jobs. - -Mr. BALL. Well, did anybody tell you you might get a job at the Texas -School Book Depository before you went down there? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You were just looking for a job? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I just put in applications everywhere. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of work did you do when you first went with the -Texas School Book Depository? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I think the first day I started work there they started -me off as a wrapper. Then the fellows told me that I had qualifications -to be a checker, so they put me on as a checker there. - -Mr. BALL. What are you doing now? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. At the present time I do anything--check, pack, fill -orders, anything. - -Mr. BALL. When you went to work there, did you work at the building on -the corner of Houston and Elm? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. The first time I went there I was hired on at -the other warehouse, the lower part of Houston Street. - -Mr. BALL. By lower part, do you mean north of the main building? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. Down further, the big white building. - -Mr. BALL. That is sort of a warehouse? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You went to work there. That is about a block, a block and a -half north? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. A block and a half. - -Mr. BALL. North of the corner of Houston and Elm? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And how long did you work at that place? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I worked there until business began to get slow. I -think that was--it was before November. I think it was some time during -October. I am not sure. - -Mr. BALL. And what did they put you to work at at that time? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. They called me up to help lay a floor on the fifth floor, -they wanted more boards over it. As I say, business was slow, and they -were trying to keep us on without laying us off at the time. - -So I was using the saw, helping cut wood and lay wood. - -Mr. BALL. You were laying a wood floor over the old floor? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. On the fifth floor? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And when you finished on the fifth floor, what did you do? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. After we finished on the fifth floor, we started to move -up to the sixth floor. But at the time we didn't complete the sixth -floor. We only completed just a little portion of it. - -Mr. BALL. By the time, you are talking about November 22d? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Before November 22d, how long had you been laying floor in -the building at Houston and Elm? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Before November 22d, I think we had been working on the -fifth floor, I think, about 3 weeks. I think altogether I had been up -there just about 4 weeks, I think. - -Mr. BALL. And how long had you been on the sixth floor before--how long -have you been working on the sixth floor before November 22d? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Let's see. Before November 22d, I think it might have -been 2 days--it might have been 2 days. I would say about 2 days, -approximately 2 days. - -Mr. BALL. Before you started to lay the floor, did you have to move any -cartons? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; we did. - -Mr. BALL. From what part of the sixth floor did you move the cartons? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. We moved cartons from, I believe, the west side of the -sixth floor to the east side of the sixth floor, because I think there -was a vacancy in there. - -Mr. BALL. Clear over to the east side? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Were there cartons stacked up between the west side and the -east side--were there cartons on the floor? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; there was. - -Mr. BALL. After you moved the cartons, then did you start laying the -floor? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. After we moved the cartons, we started laying the floor. - -Then we had to move the cartons. - -As we go we would move cartons to vacate the space, so we could lay the -floor. - -Mr. BALL. On November 22d, what time did you go to work? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. November 22d, I went to work at 8 o'clock. - -Mr. BALL. Were you late or on time that morning? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe I was on time that morning. I always get there -a little before eight. - -Mr. BALL. Did you know Lee Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I didn't know him personally, but I had seen him working. -Never did say anything to anyone. He never did put himself in any -position to say anything to anyone. - -He just went about his work. He never said anything to me. I never said -anything to him. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever have lunch with him? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No. - -The only time he would come into the lunchroom sometimes and eat a -sandwich maybe, and then he would go for a walk, and he would go out. -And I assume he would come back. But the only other time he would come -in and read a paper or nothing, and laugh and leave again. - -Mr. DULLES. But he would never say good morning or good evening? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. He never would speak to anyone. He was just a funny -fellow. I don't know what kind of a fellow he was. - -Mr. BALL. Did you notice what he read in the newspaper? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe one morning I noticed he was reading something -about politics, and as he was reading this he acted like it was funny -to him. He would read a paragraph or two, smile, or laugh, then throw -the paper down and get up and walk out. - -Representative FORD. Where did this go on? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. This was going on in what we call the domino room. This -is where we would eat our lunch and play dominoes. Some fellow would -bring newspapers, to read the sports or something. He never would read -the sports. - -Mr. BALL. The domino room is a little recreation room on the first -floor? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; it is. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you see the map there which has been marked Commission -Exhibit 362. Will you point on that map the location of the domino room? - -Mr. DULLES. Would it be easier if we put the map up there, and then -everybody could see. - -Mr. WILLIAMS. In the front entrance--I could explain the way I know the -best. - -As I said, this would be the main entrance from Elm Street. Well, -this would be--the domino room is in the same line with Mr. Shelley's -office, and Mr. Truly's office. The domino room would be right in -here. Because two bathrooms, a large one and a small one right in this -vicinity here. - -Mr. BALL. That is marked on the map--the domino room is marked on the -map as rec room, and the toilet is shown there? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. And there is a small one on the other side. - -Mr. BALL. That is on Exhibit 362. - -Mr. DULLES. What floor is this we are looking at now? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. That is the first floor. - -Representative FORD. And it was in the rec room or domino room where -you saw Oswald read the paper on this occasion? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. And you said he read some of it to you and smiled about it? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No; he didn't read it to me. We were waiting turns to -play dominoes, and I happened to glance over. And I just noticed what -he was reading. - -Mr. BALL. Now, this morning, did you see Oswald on the floor at any -time? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. This morning of November 22d? - -Mr. BALL. 22d. - -Mr. WILLIAMS. The morning of November 22d Oswald was on the floor. The -only time I saw him that morning was a little after eight, after I had -started working. As usual, he was walking around with a clipboard in -his hands, I believe he was. - -Mr. BALL. That is on the first floor? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes. He had a clipboard in his hand. - -Mr. BALL. That is the only time you saw him that morning? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. That is the only time I saw him that morning. I saw him -again between 11:30 and maybe 10 until 12:00. - -Mr. BALL. We will come to that in a moment. - -Where did you work that morning? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. That morning I worked on the sixth floor. I think we went -directly up to the sixth floor and I got there. - -Mr. BALL. And how many were working on the sixth floor with you? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe there were five. - -Mr. BALL. What are their names? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, Bill Shelley, Charles Givens, and there was a -fellow by the name of Danny Arce. - -Mr. BALL. He is a Mexican boy? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes. And a fellow by the name of Billy Lovelady, and -myself. And there was a fellow that came up--his name was Harold -Norman. He really wasn't working at the time, but there wasn't anything -to do, he would come around to help a little bit, and then back down. - -Mr. DULLES. Was he in the employ of the company? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; he had been working there at the time about 2 years, -I think. - -Mr. DULLES. But he wasn't on this particular detail on the sixth floor -that you are speaking of? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, he had been helping us on the fifth floor. When the -orders would come in, he would go down and help with the orders, and -when he didn't have anything else to do he would come back and help us -move stock around. - -I think that was him. - -Mr. BALL. What part of the sixth floor were you working that morning? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. On the west side. - -Mr. BALL. Were you moving stock or laying floor that morning? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. We were doing both. - -Mr. BALL. You were doing both? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. The west side of the sixth floor--you mean the whole west -side, or was there a certain part--northwest or southwest or middle? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe it was the whole west side, because we had to -go from window to window--from the elevator to the front window facing -Elm Street--we were laying the floor parallel. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald on the sixth floor that morning? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I am not sure. I think I saw him once messing around with -some cartons or something, back over the east side of the building. But -he wasn't in the window that they said he shot the President from. He -was more on the east side of the elevator, I think, messing around with -cartons, because he always just messed around, kicking cartons around. - -Mr. BALL. What was his job? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. His job was an order filler. - -Mr. BALL. What do you mean by that? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I mean by that an order filler--when orders come in for -the State schools mostly, from Austin, he would take the orders and -fill the orders. - -If the orders called for a certain amount of books, he would fill that -order, and turn it in to be checked, to be shipped out. - -Mr. BALL. You say he would fill the order. He would go and get books? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. He would get books. As an order filler you had access to -all the floors, all seven floors. - -Mr. BALL. And were the cartons that you are talking about containers of -books? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, they were. - -Mr. BALL. Would a checker--would an order filler go to the different -floors and take books out of cartons? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. The order filler would have to, in order to -fill the order--he would have to move around to each floor, and take -the books that he needs. - -Mr. BALL. Then where would he take the books? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Down to the first floor. - -Mr. BALL. And what was on the first floor? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. The first floor is where the checkers, the freight, and -all--they are checking the books to go out, and also where they wrap -the books. - -Mr. BALL. And were there certain men down there wrapping books? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Certain men wrapping, checking, weighing, et cetera. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you have a schedule somewhere posted up so that you -knew which books were on which floor when an order came in? You would -know whether to go to the sixth floor or what floor to go to get the -particular books that were wanted? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, as I remember, I don't know too much about the -building. - -Mr. DULLES. You were not in the order filling business? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; not in that department. - -At the other building. I was just transferred to that building. - -I don't think you really had any schedule to go by, or anything to show -you where the books were. You just asked the older fellows that had -been there were certain books--if you are looking for a certain book, -they would tell you where to find it. - -Mr. BALL. This morning, when you think you saw Oswald on the sixth -floor, can you tell us about where he was? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, as I said before, I am not sure that he was really -on the sixth floor. But he was always around that way. In the place I -think I saw him was as the east elevator come up to the sixth floor, he -was on that side of the elevator. - -Mr. BALL. I have here a diagram of the sixth floor which I will have -marked as Exhibit 483. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 483 for -identification.) - -Mr. BALL. First of all, this is Houston Street, and the top is -north--east and west. Here is Elm Street. - -Mr. WILLIAMS. This would be the east elevator. - -Mr. BALL. This is the east elevator, west elevator and the stairway. - -Now, can you take this and show us about where your men were working -laying floor on that sixth floor? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I would say---- - -Mr. BALL. First of all, you take this pencil and put it down there, and -then we will make the markings afterwards. - -Mr. WILLIAMS. This is the west side of the building. - -Mr. BALL. The area where you were laying floor. Make the outside limits -of the area. - -Mr. WILLIAMS. We were working in this area down there like that. - -Mr. BALL. In other words, from there to the west, or where? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. We were working from the west coming this way, coming to -the east. And we had got about just so much. - -Mr. BALL. Well, let's draw a dark line down there. This marks the area -that you saw? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You had already laid floor from the west side to the dark -line? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And you were working right around in the dark line area, were -you? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. That morning? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, take your pencil and show us about where it was that you -saw Oswald that morning. - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I think I saw Oswald somewhere around in this vicinity. -As I was up by this other elevator, I think one time I saw him over -there. I am not really sure. - -Mr. BALL. You have drawn a line here. This is a sort of general area -where you say you saw Oswald, is that right? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. We will mark that as "O". That is on the north side of the -floor near the east elevator. - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. We will mark that "O". - -Now, these lines you have marked show your area where you were working. - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. We will mark that W-1 and W-1. - -Mr. DULLES. Mr. Williams, were all the boxes of books moved out of this -area while you were working, or as you finished a part of it, were some -boxes put back in? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. To begin with, I think we were working on the wall first. -I don't think we moved too many books in this area. I think we just -moved them out and right back in, as I remember. - -But I think after we got a little further over, I think we had to -move some books. We had to move these books to the east side of this -building, over here, and those books--I would say this would be the -window Oswald shot the President from. We moved these books kind of -like in a row like that, kind of winding them around. - -Mr. DULLES. That is moving them from the west towards the east of the -building? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. The window was here? - -Mr. BALL. That is right. - -Mr. DULLES. Any other questions on this? - -Mr. BALL. About what time of day do you think it was you saw Oswald, if -you can remember? If you can't remember, don't guess. - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I cannot remember. - -Mr. BALL. What time did you knock off work for the lunch hour? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, approximately--between 11:30 to 12, around in -there. I wouldn't say the exact time, because I don't remember the -exact time. - -Mr. BALL. What time do you usually quit for lunch? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. We always quit about 5 minutes before time. - -During the rush season we quit about 5 minutes before time and washup. - -Mr. BALL. Wash your hands and face before you eat lunch? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. That is right. - -Mr. BALL. You say quit 5 minutes before time. What is the time? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Five before 12. - -Mr. BALL. Did you quit earlier this day? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe this day we quit about maybe 5 or 10 minutes, -because all of us were so anxious to see the President--we quit a -little ahead of time, so that we could wash up and we wanted to be sure -we would not miss anything. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did you go downstairs? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. We took two elevators down. I mean, speaking as a group, -we took two down. - -Mr. BALL. Was there some reason you took two down? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. We always had a little kids game we played racing down -with the elevators. And I think one fellow, Charles Givens, had the -east elevator, and me, and I think two or three more fellows had the -west elevator. And we was racing down. - -Mr. BALL. Who was driving the west side elevator? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't remember exactly who was. - -Mr. BALL. You were not? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't think I was. I don't remember. - -Mr. BALL. Who was driving the east side elevator? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I think that was Charles Givens. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did something happen on the way down--did somebody yell -out? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; on the way down I heard Oswald--and I am not sure -whether he was on the fifth or the sixth floor. But on the way down -Oswald hollered "Guys, how about an elevator?" I don't know whether -those are his exact words. But he said something about the elevator. - -And Charles said, "Come on, boy," just like that. - -And he said, "Close the gate on the elevator and send the elevator back -up." - -I don't know what happened after that. - -Representative FORD. Had the elevator gone down below the floor from -which he yelled? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; I believe it was. I assume it was the fifth or the -sixth. - -The reason I could not tell whether it was the sixth or the fifth is -because I was on the opposite elevator, and if you are not thinking -about it it is kind of hard to judge which floor, if you started moving. - -Representative FORD. The elevator did not go back up to the floor from -which he yelled? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Did he ask the gate be closed on the elevator? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I think he asked Charles Givens--I think he said, "Close -the gate on the elevator, or send one of the elevators back up." - -I think that is what he said. - -Mr. McCLOY. That is in order that he would have an elevator to come -down when he wanted to come down? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. On the 23d of November 1963, you talked to two FBI agents -according to the record I have here, Bardwell Odum and Will Griffin, -and they reported that you said that as they were going down, that you -saw Lee on the fifth floor. - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I told him the fifth or the sixth. I told him I wasn't -sure about it. - -Mr. BALL. And were you sure at that time? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. About which floor it was? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No; I wasn't. - -Mr. BALL. Are you sure today? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I am not sure today. - -Mr. BALL. But you think it was the fifth or the sixth floor? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Are you sure it was Oswald you talked to? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I am sure it was Oswald. I didn't talk to him. - -Mr. BALL. But you heard him? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I heard him. - -Mr. BALL. You went down to the first floor. - -What did you do? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. We went down to the first floor. I think the first thing -I did, I washed up, then I went into the domino room where I kept my -lunch, and I got my lunch, came back out and went back up. - -Mr. BALL. Did you carry your lunch that day? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; I did. - -Mr. BALL. Do you usually carry your lunch to work? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; I do. - -Mr. BALL. That was your habit, carrying your lunch? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And that day, on November 22d, how did you carry your lunch -from home to work? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I carried my lunch from home to work in a brown paper -bag. I believe it was size No. 6 or maybe 8--paper bag. - -Mr. BALL. Number 6 or 8 size paper bag? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Small bag? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Like you get in the grocery store? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did you have in your lunch? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I had a chicken sandwich. - -Mr. BALL. Describe the sandwich. What did it have in it besides chicken? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, it just had chicken in it. Chicken on the bone. - -Mr. BALL. Chicken on the bone? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. The chicken was not boned? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. It was just chicken on the bone. Just plain old chicken. - -Mr. BALL. Did it have bread around it? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, it did. - -Mr. BALL. Before you went upstairs, did you get anything to drink? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I got a small bottle of Dr. Pepper from the Dr. Pepper -machine. - -Mr. BALL. Did you have anything else in your lunch besides chicken? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I had a bag of Fritos, I believe it was. - -Mr. BALL. Anything else? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No; I believe that was all. - -Mr. BALL. You say you went back upstairs. Where did you go? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I went back up to the sixth floor. - -Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the sixth floor? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was -going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he -wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by -the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the -sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor. - -Mr. BALL. Did anybody go back? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Nobody came back up. So I just left. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you eat your lunch? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I ate my lunch--I am not sure about this, but the third -or the fourth set of windows, I believe. - -Mr. BALL. Facing on what street? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Facing Elm Street. - -Mr. McCLOY. What floor? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Sixth floor. - -Mr. DULLES. You ate your lunch on the sixth floor? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. And you were all alone? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did you sit on while you ate your lunch? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. First of all, I remember there was some boxes behind me. -I just kind of leaned back on the boxes first. Then I began to get a -little impatient, because there wasn't anyone coming up. So I decided -to move to a two-wheeler. - -Mr. BALL. A two-wheeler truck, you mean? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I remember sitting on this two-wheeler. - -By that time, I was through, and I got up and I just left then. - -Mr. DULLES. How much of the room could you see as you finished your -lunch there? Was your view obstructed by boxes of books, or could you -see a good bit of the sixth floor? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I couldn't see too much of the sixth -floor, because the books at the time were stacked so high. I could -see only in the path that I was standing--as I remember, I could not -possibly see anything to the east side of the building. - -But just one aisle, the aisle I was standing in I could see just about -to the west side of the building. So far as seeing to the east and -behind me, I could only see down the aisle behind me and the aisle to -the west of me. - -Representative FORD. Have you ever had any trouble with the law at all? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. - -Representative FORD. No difficulty as far as the law is concerned? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I have never been inside of a courthouse before. - -Mr. BALL. I have an exhibit here marked 484. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 484 for -identification.) - -Mr. BALL. Do you recognize that? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I recognize that. - -Mr. BALL. What do you see? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I see a two-wheeler, a Dr. Pepper bottle, and some boxes -in the windows. - -Mr. BALL. And is that anywhere near where you were sitting? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; that is the exact place I was sitting. - -Mr. BALL. That is the two-wheeler you were sitting on? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, when you were on the two-wheeler, as you were sitting -there, did you have a view, could you see down towards the southeast -corner? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I couldn't see anything as I remember there. -About the only thing that I could see from there would be just the top -edge of the window, because the boxes were stacked up. - -Mr. BALL. The boxes were stacked up high? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Let me show you another picture here. - -Mr. DULLES. You are not introducing that at this time? - -Mr. BALL. I will. I am going to introduce them all. - -Let's go back to the diagram, which is 483. Could you mark on this -diagram the window that is shown in this picture 484--that is, the -place where you were sitting and eating your lunch? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. That would be facing Elm Street. I would say right around -in this. - -Mr. BALL. In other words, you are marking here something between--some -area between the third and the fourth window. - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You are not able to tell exactly? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No; I am not. - -Mr. BALL. The witness has drawn a red rectangle to show the approximate -area which runs from about the center of the second row of windows from -the southeast corner over to about the fourth pane of windows. - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I would say about right in here, third or fourth. - -Mr. BALL. Third or fourth? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you have made two marks, so I will identify the last -mark. Between the third and fourth, is that right? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. We will mark the rectangle, and we will mark it "W-3" and -"W-4" the end of the lines. - -Mr. McCLOY. What time of day was this, when you were eating your lunch? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. About 12. - -Mr. McCLOY. Just 12? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, as you looked towards the southeast corner from where -you were sitting, could you see the windows in the southeast corner? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. In the southeast--that is--the southeast. I really don't -remember if I seen anything--it would be just the top edge of the -window, as I remember. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see anyone else up there that day? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No, I did not. - -Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I was there from--5, 10, maybe 12 minutes. - -Mr. BALL. Finish your lunch? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. No longer than it took me to finish the chicken -sandwich. - -Mr. BALL. Did you eat the chicken? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, I did. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you put the bones? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't remember exactly, but I think I put some of them -back in the sack. Just as I was ready to go I threw the sack down. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do with the sack? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I think I just dropped it there. - -Mr. BALL. Anywhere near the two-wheeler? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I think it was. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do with the Dr. Pepper bottle? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Just set it down on the floor. - -Mr. BALL. There is a pop bottle that you see in the picture, 484--does -that look like anything like the pop bottle that you were drinking from -that day? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe that was the bottle--I believe. I am not sure. -But it looks like it. - -Mr. BALL. Did you leave the bottle somewhere near the point shown of -the bottle shown on 484? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I am really not sure about it. I don't think I left it -there. I am not sure. I think I left it sitting up on top of the boxes, -right to the side of the two-wheeler. As I remember--I am not sure -about it. It is possible that I could have put it there. - -Mr. BALL. Your memory is that the Dr. Pepper bottle was left on top of -the boxes? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Beg pardon? - -Mr. BALL. Your memory is that you left the Dr. Pepper bottle on top of -some of the cartons? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember. I am not sure. - -Mr. BALL. It is shown there on the floor. - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go when you left there? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I went down to the fifth floor. - -Mr. BALL. How did you get down there? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I took an elevator down. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't go down the stairs? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Which elevator did you take? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I took the east elevator down. - -Mr. BALL. Is that the one that is worked with a hand---- - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. That is the one with the one gate, and works -with the hand pedal. - -Mr. BALL. How does the other one work? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. The other one worked by push button. You have two gates -to pull. That is the one you can pull two gates on and it will come -back up by itself. The east side elevator won't come up unless someone -is operating. - -Mr. BALL. You took the elevator from the sixth floor to the fifth floor? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you intend to go when you left the sixth floor? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I intended to stop on the fifth floor, and if there -wasn't anyone there, I intended to get out of the building, go outside. - -Mr. BALL. Well, you stopped on the fifth floor. Why? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Beg pardon? - -Mr. BALL. Why did you stop on the fifth floor? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. To see if there was anyone there. - -Mr. BALL. Did you know there was anyone there before you started down? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I thought I heard somebody walking, the windows -moving or something. I said maybe someone is down there, I said to -myself. And I just went on down. - -Mr. BALL. Did you find anybody there? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember, when I was walking up, I think Harold -Norman and James Jarman--as I remember, they was down facing the Elm -Street on the fifth floor, as I remember. - -Mr. BALL. Now, I want to call your attention to another report I have -here. - -On the 23d of November 1963, the report of Mr. Odum and Mr. Griffin, -FBI agents, is that you told them that you went from the sixth floor to -the fifth floor using the stairs at the west end of the building. Did -you tell them that? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I didn't tell them I was using the stairs. I came back -down to the fifth floor in the same elevator I came up to the sixth -floor on. - -Mr. BALL. You did? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, also, on January 14th, did you remember talking to a -couple of agents named Carter and Griffin? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I can't remember their names, but I am sure I did. - -Mr. BALL. You talked to a good many of them? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Well, they reported here that you went down to the fifth -floor, and you did so by going down on the west elevator. - -Mr. WILLIAMS. The east elevator. The reason I was able to determine -whether it was the east elevator is because I think when you questioned -us the other day, the other fellows--I told you I didn't remember which -elevator first. But the other fellows said they had the west elevator. -There are only two elevators. If they are sure they had the west -elevator up, that only leaves the east elevator. - -Mr. BALL. When you got to the fifth floor and left the elevator, at -that time were both elevators on the fifth floor? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Both west and east? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir, as I remember. - -Mr. BALL. The other day, when I talked to you in Dallas, on Friday 20 -March---- - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And at that time were you able--did you remember which -elevator it was? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Which elevator I had? - -Mr. BALL. What you had come down from six to five on. - -Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember, I first said I wasn't sure. After the -fellows said they brought the west elevator up, I said I must have the -east elevator. - -Mr. BALL. Is it fair to say now that you don't have any definite memory -as to whether it was the east or west elevator? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I believe that would be true. - -Mr. BALL. But you did bring an elevator up? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. BALL. Now, when you came down there and got off that elevator, did -you notice that the other elevator was also on that floor? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I didn't notice it. - -Mr. BALL. Did you, later? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; as I remember. - -Mr. BALL. You don't remember? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't remember. - -Mr. BALL. When you got off the elevator, you went over to the front of -the building, the Elm Street side. - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. BALL. And you saw Norman and---- - -Mr. DULLES. Mr. Ball, could we get the time element? - -Mr. BALL. I am going to bring that in. - -Mr. DULLES. All right. I will bide my time. - -Mr. BALL. You went over to the front of the building, did you? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And you saw your two friends, Norman and Jarman? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You had known them before? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, do you know what time that was? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I do not know the exact time. - -Mr. BALL. It was---- - -Mr. WILLIAMS. It was after I had left the sixth floor, after I had -eaten the chicken sandwich. I finished the chicken sandwich maybe 10 or -15 minutes after 12. I could say approximately what time it was. - -Mr. BALL. Approximately what time was it? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Approximately 12:20, maybe. - -Mr. BALL. Well, now, when you talked to the FBI on the 23d day of -November, you said that you went up to the sixth floor about 12 noon -with your lunch, and you stayed only about 3 minutes, and seeing no one -you came down to the fifth floor, using the stairs at the west end of -the building. - -Now, do you think you stayed longer than 3 minutes up there? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I am sure I stayed longer than 3 minutes. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember telling the FBI you only stayed 3 minutes up -there? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I do not remember telling them I only stayed 3 minutes. - -Mr. BALL. And then on this 14th of January 1964, when you talked to -Carter and Griffin, they reported that you told them you went down to -the fifth floor around 12:05 p.m., and that around 12:30 p.m. you were -watching the Presidential parade. - -Now, do you remember telling them you went down there about 12:05 p.m.? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I remember telling the fellows that--they asked me first, -they said, "How long did it take you to finish the sandwich?" I said, -"Maybe 5 to 10 minutes, maybe 15 minutes." Just like I said here. I -don't remember saying for a definite answer that it was 5 minutes. - -Mr. BALL. Well, is it fair to say that you do not remember the exact -time now? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You do remember, though, that you ate your lunch and drank -your pop, your Doctor Pepper, before you came down? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Were you there any length of time before the Presidential -parade came by? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, sir, on the fifth floor? - -Mr. BALL. On the fifth floor, yes, with your two friends, Norman and -Jarman. - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I was there a while before it came around. - -Mr. BALL. You were at what window? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I believe we was on the east side of the window, -and I think Hank was--I think he was directly under the sixth floor -window where Oswald was supposed to have shot the President from. And -I think I was a window over. And I think James Jarman was two or three -windows over. - -Mr. BALL. I will show you a picture here, which is 482. Do you see -yourself in that picture? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I am right here. - -Mr. BALL. All right. Draw a dark line down there towards you and put an -arrow on the end. I will mark that W; the arrow W on 482 points to you, -Bonnie Ray Williams. - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Is that about the way you were sitting in the window? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And you were watching the parade? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't remember whether I was watching the parade here -or not. But I was in the window, that window. - -Mr. BALL. Do you recognize the man in the window to the right of us as -we look at the picture? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; that is Harold Norman. - -Mr. BALL. Now, here is another photograph which is 480, giving more of -the front of the building. Can you tell us in what window your friend -Jarman was sitting, or watching? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe this is James Jarman right here. - -Mr. BALL. All right. Draw a line down to that on 480. Draw an arrow to -the window. - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. We will mark that W on 480. - -Now, were you boys sitting down or standing up? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Are you referring to the picture? - -Mr. BALL. No, I am talking about your memory now as to what you were -doing at the time you were watching for the Presidential parade. - -Mr. WILLIAMS. At the time we were watching for the President's parade, -I believe I was in a squat position. But I don't remember whether I was -on my knees or just squatting on the balls of my feet. - -Mr. BALL. When the parade went by, how were you--squatting? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. As the parade went by, I was in a squat position. - -Mr. BALL. Last Friday you went up to the sixth floor, or the fifth -floor with us, and a photographer, and you three men got into position, -did you not? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. To have your pictures taken. - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; we did. - -Mr. BALL. I can only ask you about your position. First of all, we will -mark this as 485. - -(The photograph was marked Commission Exhibit No. 485 for -identification.) - -Mr. BALL. I will mark this photograph as 486. - -(The photograph was marked Exhibit No. 486 for identification.) - -Mr. BALL. 485 is a picture of three men. You were there when that -picture was taken? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Who are the men who are there? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. First of all in the corner of the east of the building is -Harold Norman. Secondly, the fellow over from me, that would be James -Jarman. - -Mr. BALL. Who is the man in the center? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. That is me. - -Mr. BALL. Is that about the way you were sitting when you watched the -parade? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe it was at the time. - -Mr. BALL. Now, I show you 486 and who are the men in that position? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. In this picture here, 486--this fellow--the other fellow -in the corner, in the east of the building, is Harold Norman. I am in -the window next to him. - -Mr. BALL. Your back is to the picture? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Is that about the position you were in when the President's -parade went by? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe it was. - -Mr. BALL. Now, what do you remember happened when the President's -parade went by? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, to the best of my ability, what I remember was -first coming off of--I believe it was Main Street--well, two motorcycle -policemen came around. I think it was two or maybe three. They came -around first. And then I think the President's car followed. And I -believe a car was behind it carrying the Vice President, as I remember. -I am not sure about it. President Kennedy was sitting in the back seat. -I believe his wife was in the back seat. I believe Governor Connally -was sitting in the front seat of the car as it was going down the -street--I believe---- - -Mr. McCLOY. What street are you talking about there? Are you talking -about Main Street, Houston Street, or Elm Street? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. First of all, as I say, they was coming off of Main -Street. Then as it turned the corner, the corner which I am speaking -of, most people refer to it as Elm Street. But it is not really Elm -Street. I believe it is the start of the turnpike, because Elm Street -runs parallel with the building, but comes to a dead end. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see the parade come up Houston, north on Houston? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. BALL. And then you saw it turn to the left in front of your -building? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now tell us what happened after the President's car had -passed your window. - -Mr. WILLIAMS. After the President's car had passed my window, the last -thing I remember seeing him do was, you know--it seemed to me he had -a habit of pushing his hair back. The last thing I saw him do was he -pushed his hand up like this. I assumed he was brushing his hair back. -And then the thing that happened then was a loud shot--first I thought -they were saluting the President, somebody--even maybe a motorcycle -backfire. The first shot--there was two shots rather close together. -The second and the third shot was closer together than the first shot -and the second shot, as I remember. - -Mr. BALL. Now, was your head out the window? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I could not say for sure. I do not remember. - -Mr. BALL. Did you notice--where did you think the shots came from? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, the first shot--I really did not pay any attention -to it, because I did not know what was happening. The second shot, it -sounded like it was right in the building, the second and third shot. -And it sounded--it even shook the building, the side we were on. Cement -fell on my head. - -Mr. BALL. You say cement fell on your head? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Cement, gravel, dirt, or something, from the old -building, because it shook the windows and everything. Harold was -sitting next to me, and he said it came right from over our head. If -you want to know my exact words, I could tell you. - -Mr. BALL. Tell us. - -Mr. WILLIAMS. My exact words were, "No bull shit." And we jumped up. - -Mr. BALL. Norman said what? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. He said it came directly over our heads. "I can even hear -the shell being ejected from the gun hitting the floor." But I did not -hear the shell being ejected from the gun, probably because I wasn't -paying attention. - -Mr. BALL. Norman said he could hear it? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. He said he could hear it. He was directly under the -window that Oswald shot from. - -Mr. BALL. He was directly under. He told you as he got up from the -window that he could hear the shells ejected from the gun? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; he did. - -Mr. BALL. After he made the statement that you mentioned, he thought -it came from overhead, and you made some statement, did Jarman say -anything? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I think Jarman, he--I think he moved before any of us. -He moved towards us, and he said, "Man, somebody is shooting at the -President." And I think I said again. "No bull shit." And then we all -kind of got excited, you know, and, as I remember, I don't remember him -saying that he thought the shots came from overhead. But we all decided -we would run down to the west side of the building. - -Mr. BALL. You ran down to the west side of the building? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Ran down to the west side? You mean you were still -on the fifth floor? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; we were on the fifth floor, the east side of -the building. We saw the policemen and people running, scared, -running--there are some tracks on the west side of the building, -railroad tracks. They were running towards that way. And we thought -maybe--well, to ourself, we know the shots practically came from over -our head. But since everybody was running, you know, to the west side -of the building, towards the railroad tracks, we assumed maybe somebody -was down there. And so we all ran that way, the way that the people was -running, and we was looking out the window. - -Mr. BALL. When the cement fell on your head, did either one of the men -notice it and say anything about it? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I believe Harold was the first one. - -Mr. BALL. That is Hank Norman? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe he was the first one. He said "Man, I know -it came from there. It even shook the building." He said, "You got -something on your head." And then James Jarman said, "Yes, man, don't -you brush it out." By that time I just forgot about it. But after I got -downstairs I think I brushed it out anyway. - -Mr. BALL. Jarman is called Junior? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Well, did Norman say anything about hearing the bolt of the -rifle? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't remember him saying anything about it. - -Mr. BALL. But you heard him say he could hear the cartridges? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I heard Harold Norman--pardon me, I thought you were -saying James Jarman. - -Mr. BALL. Did Norman say anything about the bolt? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes. He said he could hear the rifle, and it sounded like -it was right above. He said he could hear the rifle being ejected, the -shells hitting the floor. - -Mr. BALL. But you could not hear this? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No; I could not hear it. - -Mr. BALL. That was an old floor, wasn't it? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; it was. - -Mr. BALL. Could you see light through the floor from the fifth to the -sixth floor as you would look above your window? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time, that day of November 22d, I did not -notice that. But the other day when you were questioning me, even after -the thick new floor that was put over the old floor on the sixth floor, -well, you still could see light. And the new floor extended a little -beyond the old floor. So therefore I would say that you could see light -much more when the old floor was there. - -Mr. BALL. When you were there the other day, you looked up through a -crack in the ceiling of the fifth floor? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Could you see the new floor? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. You could. You could see daylight through. - -Mr. BALL. Now, where was that crack with reference to the wall of the -fifth floor? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. With reference to the wall of the fifth floor, the crack -that I was speaking about was directly over my head, and also directly -over Norman's head. - -Mr. BALL. And that would be where the floor would ordinarily make a -joint with the wall? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. With the wall. - -Mr. BALL. You say you ran down to the west window. - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. From where you were? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. First of all---- - -Mr. BALL. I will take this same diagram---- - -Mr. WILLIAMS. First of all we made a stop before we got to the last -stop that we was when the policeman came up. - -Mr. BALL. Yes. That is where I want you to show me now, where you made -the stop. This is the fifth floor diagram. - -We will mark the fifth floor diagram as Exhibit 487. - -(The document so described was marked Commission Exhibit No. 487 for -identification.) - -Mr. BALL. This is Elm Street on 487, and here are the windows where you -have shown us you were standing. - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, will you show us the direction that you ran and also -point to the window? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. The direction that we ran after we heard the shots was--I -would say I was in about this position here, this window. And we left -like this. Harold was coming from here. - -Mr. BALL. Let me show you the diagram. Here are these two pair of -windows that are shown here on this diagram. This is the corner. Here -is the next window, and here is the next window. - -Now, take the pencil and show where you were and where you ran to. - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I was right here. - -Mr. BALL. Mark an X, and bring it on down, and show us. - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I left here, and I came like this. The other fellows -followed like this. We all was running this direction here. And I -believe when we got to this point here, we stopped. And I am not sure, -but I think James Jarman, he raised this window, this corner window -here, and we all huddled in this corner window. - -Mr. BALL. We will mark that window Y. And then you ran from X to Y, you -three men? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Was the window open or closed? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I think it was closed at the time. - -Mr. BALL. Was it opened then? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe James Jarman opened the window. - -Mr. BALL. Now, the other day, when you were up here, you three men went -to that window and stood there and had your picture taken, did you not? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. This window which you have shown as Y, in 487, the diagram of -the fifth floor. - -Mr. WILLIAMS. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. Here is 488. - -(The document so described was marked Commission Exhibit No. 488 for -identification.) - -Mr. BALL. Is that the window? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; it is. - -Mr. BALL. And is that about the way you were standing as you looked out -to the west? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. That is about the way we were standing. - -Mr. BALL. Did you run fast towards the west? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. We did. We moved rather fast. We was at a trotting pace. - -Mr. DULLES. Was that to get a better view of the President's party in -the car? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't think--we knew the President had been -shot at at that time. The car was gone, you know. It has speeded up -and left. But the people, as I said before, the policemen and people -were running towards the tracks. The tracks are at this side of the -building. We wondered why they were running that way. - -Mr. DULLES. How did you know the President was shot at this time? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. We heard the shots, and we assumed somebody had shot him. -And we decided to run down that way. - -Representative FORD. Why didn't you go up to the sixth floor? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I really don't know. We just never did think about it. -And after we had made this last stop, James Jarman said, "Maybe we -better get the hell out of here." And so we just ran down to the fourth -floor, and came on down. We never did think about it, going up to the -sixth floor. Maybe it was just because we were frightened. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you know the President had been hit? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, personally I did not know he had been hit, but I -think Harold--I remember--I don't know whether he said or not--but I -think he said he saw him slump. So from that I think we all assumed he -had been shot at. - -Mr. DULLES. One of the other two? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I think it was. - -Mr. DULLES. Said that? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I believe that is what he said. Anyway, we knew -he had been shot at. - -Mr. BALL. After you left this corner window in the southwest corner -that we have shown you the picture of as 488, where did you go? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Then we moved over to another window on the west side of -the building. - -Mr. BALL. Let's go back to the diagram of the fifth floor, 487, and you -show me where that window was. - -Mr. WILLIAMS. It was one of these windows, I believe it was this window -here, I believe. Maybe it was this window. I would say this window. - -Mr. BALL. All right. We will mark that Z--window Z. - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And the other day, Friday, March 20th, when we were in -Dallas, you three men went to that same window, didn't you? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And you had your picture taken? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. That is 489. - -(The described document was marked Commission Exhibit No. 489 for -identification.) - -Mr. BALL. Is that about it? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Why did you go there and look in that direction? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Because, as I said before, the policeman was running -toward the tracks. - -Mr. BALL. The tracks shown in this picture? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I believe that is the parking lot right here. - -Mr. BALL. And the tracks are shown in there, aren't they? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And were people running towards the tracks? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; the policemen were. - -Representative FORD. Mr. Ball, I hate to interrupt, but I do have to -go to a call of the House. I wonder if I could ask one question right -here. I dislike breaking up the sequence. - -Mr. Williams, when did you first know that the President's motorcade -would come by the Texas School Book Depository? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I never did know the exact time. But I think my -wife had mentioned it before that Friday. She had told me, because I -never did have too much time reading the paper. And that morning, that -Friday morning, we was on the sixth floor, and I think some fellows -mentioned it to me again, some of the fellows working with me. - -Representative FORD. You did not know the motorcade was coming by your -building until Friday morning? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I didn't know the exact way it was coming, -because I hadn't been reading the papers. - -Representative FORD. You had not read the paper the day before? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. About the only thing I would read in the paper in the -mornings before I leave home would be the sports. - -Representative FORD. Was it discussed in the building that morning of -November 22d that the motorcade was coming by the Texas School Book -Depository? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe I heard a couple of fellows say--I don't -remember exactly who it was--but I believe I heard them say the -motorcade was coming around that way. - -Representative FORD. But it was not until Friday that you personally -knew it was coming by the building? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. I would like to ask one question here. - -When you were on the sixth floor eating your lunch, did you hear -anything that made you feel that there was anybody else on the sixth -floor with you? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I didn't hear anything. - -Mr. DULLES. You did not see anything? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I did not see anything. - -Mr. DULLES. You were all alone as far as you knew at that time on the -sixth floor? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. During that period of from 12 o'clock about to--10 or 15 -minutes after? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I felt like I was all alone. That is one of the -reasons I left--because it was so quiet. - -Mr. McCLOY. When you saw Oswald that morning, was he carrying any -package? Did you see any bundle or package with him? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I didn't see anything other than the clipboard -with the orders on it that he was filling, as I remember. - -Mr. McCLOY. How many shots did you hear fired? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I heard three shots. But at first I told the FBI I only -heard two--they took me down--because I was excited, and I couldn't -remember too well. But later on, as everything began to die down, I -got my memory even a little better than on the 22d, I remembered three -shots, because there was a pause between the first two shots. There was -two real quick. There was three shots. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything upstairs at all? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I didn't hear anything. - -Mr. BALL. Any footsteps? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. Probably the reason we didn't hear anything is -because, you know, after the shots we were running, too, and that was -making a louder noise. - -Mr. BALL. You really ran? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; we ran. And that was probably making a lot of -noise. - -Mr. BALL. Now, I'm going to hold this up. I don't know whether -everybody can see it or not---- - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question in connection with your last -question? - -Did you hear either of the elevators going up or down while you were -eating your meal? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. DULLES. You didn't hear the elevators at all? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. If an elevator had come to that floor, would you have heard -it then? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. That all depends---- - -Mr. DULLES. Were they noisy elevators? The operation of the doors and -so forth? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. The elevator that I came up on to the sixth -floor, if you would listen--say you were listening for the boss, you -could hear, because you would be paying attention. The elevator is -worked by hand pedal. When you release the hand pedal it makes a noise. -It bangs--or maybe you can hear the old elevator when it is first -coming up. But at that time I did not hear anything. - -(At this point, Representative Ford left the hearing room.) - -Mr. BALL. I would like to point out over in the northwest corner there -is a stairwell. And the elevators are shown here. And the witness has -placed himself at point "Z" on Exhibit 487, which is near a pair of -west windows. - -Now, you are oriented there, are you not? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. All right. When you were at "Z" were you able to see the -stairwell? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Why? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. You could not see the stairs from that point because this -other--this is the stairway, and it has some shelves made out of some -old wooden boxes. Those old wooden boxes come out to about right here. -And they come out maybe 5 feet, even more than that, past the stairway. -And that would block your view of the stairway from that point. - -Mr. BALL. Mark it in there with your pencil. - -Mr. WILLIAMS. These are the stairs. I would say the bookcase would come -out like that. - -Mr. BALL. The shelf we will mark "WX", both ends of the shelf. How high -is the shelf? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Pretty high. - -Mr. BALL. Does it go to the ceiling? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember, they do not go exactly to the ceiling. But -I am 6 feet, and they are way over me, I think. - -Mr. BALL. Now, could you see all of the elevators from there? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, by me being the tallest, I saw---- - -Mr. BALL. I am not going into what you saw. But could you see either -elevator from where you were standing at "Z"? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; you could see this pretty plainly. - -Mr. BALL. You mean the west elevator? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Could you see the east elevator? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; you could not see it exactly. - -Mr. BALL. Now, when you were questioned by the FBI agents, talking to -Mr. Odum and Mr. Griffin, they reported in writing here that while you -were standing at the west end of the building on the fifth floor, a -police officer came up on the elevator and looked all around the fifth -floor and left the floor. Did you see anything like that? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I was up there I saw a motorcycle -policeman. He came up. And the only thing I saw of him was his white -helmet. - -Mr. BALL. What did he do? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. He just came around, and around to the elevator. - -Mr. BALL. Which elevator? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe it was the east elevator. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody with him? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I did not. - -Mr. BALL. You were only able to see the top of his helmet? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You could only see the top of his helmet? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; that is the only thing I saw about it. - -Mr. BALL. They reported that you told them on the 23d of November that -you and Hank, that is Hank Norman, isn't it---- - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And Junior--that is Junior Jarman--were standing where they -would have seen anyone coming down from the sixth floor by way of the -stairs. Did you tell them that? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I could not possibly have told him that, because you -cannot see anything coming down from that position. - -Mr. BALL. And that you did not see anyone coming down. - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. An elephant could walk by there, and you could -not see him. - -Mr. BALL. That day we were out there, Friday, March 20th, we took some -pictures. - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I show you 490. - -(The document described was marked Exhibit No. 490 for identification.) - -Mr. BALL. We took a picture from where you were standing towards the -stairs. Do you recognize that? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What is that? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. This is the side we were on. I believe these are the -bookshelves I was speaking of. - -Mr. BALL. That is the ones that hide the stairwell? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. That is right. - -Mr. BALL. And the camera is--you saw where the camera was set, didn't -you? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You saw these pictures taken? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where was the camera? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. The camera was located about the exact place I was -standing looking out this window. - -Mr. BALL. That would be "Z" on 487? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. That's right. - -Mr. BALL. And was pointed toward what direction? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. It was pointed towards the stairway and the bookcase. - -Mr. BALL. The way you would have been looking on that day? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Right. - -Mr. BALL. And this shows those shelves. - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I have two other pictures I would like to show, and I would -like to show the Commissioners all three at the same time. - -Now, do you recall that we had you three men stand near the stairwell? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, on this picture here, on 487, that would be what -location? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. On this picture here, that would be about right in here. - -Mr. BALL. Near the "up", is that right? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I would like to have the Commissioners note that--that the -man was standing near the "up" part of the stairwell. - -We took your pictures three in a row, is that right? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. That is right. - -Mr. BALL. And then do you recall the picture was taken? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I recall this picture. This picture was taken -from the position we were standing, and it gave the view of--the only -thing you would be able to see from this point. And this picture here -was James Jarman, which we were standing shoulder to shoulder. - -Mr. BALL. Also were the cartons piled at that time so that--as they -were here--on the day, November 22d, were the cartons piled somewhat -like they are here? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. They were piled somewhat like here, because they have -been rearranged since that time. - -Mr. BALL. Now, in both pictures, 492 and 490, you see two windows, do -you not? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And those windows are shown on the diagram of the fifth -floor, 487, as where? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Right here. - -Mr. BALL. The windows next to the west elevator? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And in this picture, are you able to see either elevator? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. In this picture? - -Mr. BALL. This picture--490 and 492--are you able to see either -elevator? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; you cannot see exactly the elevator. - -Mr. BALL. Now, in this picture, 491, where is the downstairs? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. The downstairs come right in here. - -Mr. BALL. Are you able to see the opening of the downstairs from this -view, 492? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And the thing that obstructs your view is this shelving, is -that right? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; that's right. - -Mr. DULLES. How long has that shelving been there--for quite a long -while? Or was it put there recently? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I think it was there from the time I started, as far as I -can remember. - -Mr. DULLES. That goes back to the time you were first employed there? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. At the time I came to the building. - -Mr. DULLES. So it could not have been put up a day or two before. - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear anyone going up or down the stairs? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No, I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Did you pay any attention to that? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. As you were standing at the window, did you hear any -footsteps? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Up above--hear any movement up above? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't remember. - -Mr. BALL. Were you paying any attention whether or not there was anyone -up above? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; we wasn't paying any attention. - -Mr. BALL. Now, in this FBI report that we have dated the 23d of -November 1963, the report that you said that someone might have been -coming down on the elevator and you would not have noticed that. Did -you say that? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I think I remember saying that. - -Mr. BALL. After you stood at the west window for a while, what did you -do? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. After we stood at the west window for a while, we decided -to go down. Then we left. - -Mr. BALL. How did you go down? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. By stairs. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. We went to the fourth floor first. Then we paused for a -minute there, where we saw these women looking out of the window. Then -we decided to go down to the first floor, and we ran on down. - -Mr. BALL. When you got to the first floor, what did you see there? - -Mr. McCLOY. How did you get to the first floor? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. By stairs. - -Mr. DULLES. There were some people on the fourth floor? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I remember seeing maybe two or three women -standing in the window, looking out the window. - -Mr. DULLES. Looking out the window? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Which stairway did they take, west or east? - -Mr. BALL. There was only one stairway, and that is the one in the -corner. - -Did you run down stairs? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; we ran. - -Mr. BALL. When you got to the first floor, what did you see? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. When we arrived to the first floor, the first thing I -noticed was that the policemen had rushed in. I think some firemen came -in with a water hose. And then the next thing that happened, these -detectives, or maybe FBI--anyway, they stopped us all and they said, -"Do you work here?" And we told them yes. And they took our name, -address, and they searched everybody. And then the other fellow--I -think one fellow asked whether we had been working upstairs. I think -we told him yes. They got out all the fellows I think that was working -on the sixth floor at the time, and they took us all down to the -courthouse, I think, and we had to fill out some affidavits and things. - -Mr. BALL. You made out an affidavit there? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go out of the building shortly after you came -downstairs? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. They wouldn't let anybody out of the building. - -Mr. BALL. How long after you came down from the first floor were you -taken over to the Police Department? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I couldn't give you the exact time, but it wasn't long. - -Mr. BALL. You can't give me any estimate in minutes? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I would not want to say. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you see Lee Oswald at any time during this period? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't remember seeing him. - -Mr. BALL. Were the police with you? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; they were. - -Mr. BALL. Were your two friends with you, Jarman and---- - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No; they wasn't with me. First I think they took me and -another fellow, Danny--they took us in one car. Then they took some -other fellows in another car, and then another car, I think. - -Mr. BALL. You were with Danny Arce and one or two police officers? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Anybody else? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. That's all. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know when Norman and Jarman went out? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I don't think Norman and Jarman came -down right then. They brought Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady, a fellow -by the name of Jack Dougherty, and Charles Givens later on, they -brought them right behind us. - -Mr. BALL. When you left the first floor with the officers, was Norman -still there? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; he was in the building. - -Mr. BALL. And was Jarman still there? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I would like to offer all of the exhibits that we marked so -far into evidence. - -Mr. DULLES. Could you give me the numbers? - -Mr. BALL. I think they run 483 to 492, inclusive. - -Mr. DULLES. Was 481 introduced? - -Mr. BALL. If 481 and 482 were not, we offer them. 483 is a diagram of -the sixth floor. We offer that. Everything this morning from 477 to 492 -we offer in evidence. The last number is 492. - -Mr. DULLES. All exhibits subsequent to the last exhibit noted in the -record up to and including 492 will be admitted. - -(The material heretofore marked Exhibits Nos. 481 through 492, -inclusive, previously marked for identification, were received in -evidence.) - -Mr. McCLOY. I have some questions. - -When you came downstairs, do you remember seeing a man named Brennan, -and did a man named Brennan identify you downstairs? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't remember that. - -Mr. McCLOY. No one that you know--no one said, "This is the man I have -seen on the fifth floor window?" - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Were you physically kept from leaving the building when you -got downstairs? Did you try to go out of the building? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I wasn't trying to go out of the building -because there wasn't any use of trying to, because at the time we -arrived on the first floor, I heard an officer shout out and say, "No -one leave the building." - -Mr. McCLOY. Have you got any appreciation of the time that elapsed -between your hearing the first shot and the time that you got finally -down to the first floor, after you had been on the fifth floor and the -fourth floor? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I could not give you any time. - -Mr. McCLOY. Well, you did not give us any time. Do you have any -recollection now of about how long that was? Was it 15 minutes, 10 -minutes, 20 minutes? How long did it take from the time that you were -looking out that window and you heard that shot until you did get down -to the first floor? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I could say approximately 15 minutes, maybe a -little before then, maybe after. I could not say exactly. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you know what time it was when you went off and left for -the police station? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I could not give you the exact time. - -Mr. McCLOY. Do you know whether or not anybody got out of the building -before the police could get there? Did any of your friends or the -people you were working with, did you hear whether any of them had left -the building before the building was closed? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I heard Mr. Truly--he said that--he mentioned -that--he said, "Where is Lee?" That is what everybody called him. -"Where is Lee?", he said, and therefore I assume he did not know -where Lee was, that he was out of the building, because everybody -else was there. And there was another colored fellow by the name of -Charles Givens. He wasn't in the building at the time. He was downtown -somewhere. - -Mr. McCLOY. Had he been at the building at the time of the -shooting--Givens? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't believe he had. - -Mr. DULLES. What did Mr. Truly say about Lee not being there? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. The only thing I heard him say is--I think an officer -asked him, "Is everyone here?" And he said, "Where is Lee?"--like that, -you know. - -Mr. DULLES. Mr. Truly said that? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Do you know the name of the first policeman that accosted -you, who stopped you? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Are you familiar with firearms? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Do you ever do any hunting? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I never go hunting. - -Mr. McCLOY. But you have heard shots fired? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I heard my grandfather try a gun out, something -like that. - -Mr. McCLOY. You were not in the army? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I have never been in the army. - -Mr. McCLOY. I think that is all I have. - -Mr. DULLES. I have one question. - -You have referred to three explosions that--one you thought was a -backfire or a firecracker. - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Was there any difference in the sound of those three -explosions? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. As far as I remember, there wasn't any difference in the -sound. It was just the time between the sound. - -Mr. McCLOY. As I heard you testify, you said there was a larger pause -between the first and the second shot than there was between the second -and the third. - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Let me get this clear. Did you see the President crumple -after the shot? Did you see the President hit? - -Mr. WILLIAMS. Personally, I did not see him, because I was kind of -jumping. - -Mr. DULLES. Are there any other questions? - -Thank you very much, and we appreciate your coming. We will recess at -this time until 2 o'clock this afternoon. - -(Whereupon, at 12:40 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -Afternoon Session - -TESTIMONY OF HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN RESUMED - - -The President's Commission reconvened at 2:05 p.m. - -Mr. McCLOY. The purpose of today's hearing is to have the testimony of -Mr. Brennan here and you gentlemen. - -Mr. Williams has already appeared before us, and Mr. Norman and Mr. -Jarman and also Mr. Truly who will be on the stand later. - -You were all witnesses, you were all in the vicinity of the Texas -School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination -of President Kennedy, and we are going to ask you to give us your -knowledge of the facts such as they come within your knowledge of that -event and we will have some questions that we will wish to ask you. - -Mr. BALL. The record will show that Harold Norman, whose nickname -is Hank, is present and Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, whose -nickname is Junior. Mr. Brennan is also. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, you testified here this morning, is that -correct? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Right. - -Mr. McCLOY. You are still under oath, Mr. Brennan. - -Mr. BELIN. I believe that you testified that you thought you recognized -two of the people that you saw looking out of the fifth floor of the -School Book Depository Building you thought you recognized outside of -the building sometime after the assassination, is that correct? - -The two people that you saw, are they any of these three people here? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I believe it is the one on the end and this one here, -I am not sure. - -Mr. BELIN. By that you would mean---- - -Mr. BRENNAN. I don't know which of those two. - -Mr. BALL. Let's identify. - -Mr. BELIN. Which person do you mean, you mean Mr. Norman sitting -opposite? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I believe he was one of them. - -Mr. BELIN. And you believe it was Mr. Jarman together? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Jarman. - -Mr. BELIN. Were they with some policeman as they came out of the -building or in custody of some plainclothesman? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I don't believe they were. - -Mr. BELIN. You saw them together come out of the building? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I don't believe they were. I don't recall seeing any -officer bring them out or with them. - -Mr. BELIN. Now you do not believe then that it was Mr. Williams? - -Mr. BRENNAN. No; I won't say for sure. I can't tell which of those two -it was. - -Mr. BELIN. In other words, you say that you can't, when you say you -can't tell whether it was Mr. Williams or Mr. Norman, did you just see -one person or two? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I saw two but I can't identify which one it was. - -Mr. BELIN. Could it have been neither one of these persons that you saw? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I think it was one of them. I think it was this boy on the -end. - -Mr. BELIN. You thought it was Mr. Norman. And what about Mr. Jarman? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I believe it was him, too. Am I right or wrong? - -Mr. BALL. I don't know. - -Mr. BRENNAN. I explained that to you this morning. - -Mr. BALL. I understand. - -Any questions? - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you recognize anyone in this room that you saw in the -fifth floor window while you were sitting on the masonry opposite the -school book depository? - -Mr. BRENNAN. That is the two boys that I am speaking of now. - -Mr. McCLOY. That you are speaking of now? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. You saw these two men in the fifth floor window and you saw -them again on the first floor? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Coming out of the building down the stairway, coming out -on the street, those were the only two people I could identify. - -Mr. BELIN. I hand you---- - -Mr. BRENNAN. I recall seeing three people with you I---- - -Mr. BELIN. I hand you Exhibit 477 which you testified to this morning -was a recent picture taken of the Texas School Book Depository Building -on March 20. This is you sitting on that concrete wall? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. At first I believe this morning you thought that you saw one -person or two people at the point marked B, and then you later said it -was to the window which would be to the---- - -Mr. BRENNAN. Left. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, let's talk about directions. This direction here would -be to the east and this direction here would be to the west? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. Would it be a window to the east or west? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I believe it was a window to the east. - -Mr. BELIN. So you saw, you believe you saw two people in this window -here to the east of the window that you first marked B? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I am not positive. - -Mr. BELIN. You are not positive? - -Mr. BRENNAN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Mr. McCloy, may I have permission to ask this question of -this witness? - -Mr. McCLOY. Very well. - -Mr. REDLICH. You stated that you saw two employees walking down the -steps of the building? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall whether the two employees that you saw -walking down the steps of the building were the same two employees -that you saw on the window, in the window on the fifth floor at the -easterly most end of the building? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; as far as on the fifth floor and at one of these two -windows. The one I circled or this window here. - -Mr. REDLICH. You mean two of the people that you---- - -Mr. BRENNAN. At one of the windows I saw two, two of those people, -employees that came down. - -Mr. REDLICH. But you are not prepared to state which of these three -possible windows? - -Mr. BRENNAN. That is right. - -Mr. REDLICH. By three, I mean the two windows to the east, plus the one -window which is circled and marked with a B. - -Mr. BRENNAN. Nothing makes me think that they were in this window but I -am in question whether it was this window or this window. - -Mr. REDLICH. And of the two people that you saw, it is possible you -are saying that one might have been in the window marked B and another -might have been in a window to the east? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Thank you. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, are you basing your recollection on what you -saw during the moments that the shots were fired or on what you saw -when you observed these windows prior to the time the motorcade arrived? - -Mr. BRENNAN. What I saw prior. There was no significance to the fact at -all. In other words, there is a little difference in your memory there -on this. - -Mr. BALL. No questions. - -You may be excused, Mr. Brennan. - -You two men can also be excused and we will call you in a few moments, -Mr. Jarman. - -Mr. REDLICH. We don't need Mr. Williams at all. - -Mr. BALL. We don't need you at all. - -Mr. REDLICH. We may want him back. - -Mr. BELIN. Don't get too far away. - - -TESTIMONY OF HAROLD NORMAN - -I will ask you if you will please stand and hold up your right hand. - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give in this case will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. NORMAN. I do. - -Mr. BALL. Mr. Norman. - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where do you live? - -Mr. NORMAN. 4858 Beulah Place, Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. BALL. Are you married? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. How old are you? - -Mr. NORMAN. 26. I will be. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you born? - -Mr. NORMAN. Clarksville, Tex. - -Mr. BALL. Were you raised in Clarksville? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Go to school there? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How far did you go to school? - -Mr. NORMAN. I graduated there. - -Mr. BALL. From high school? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. In Clarksville? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of work did you do after you got out of school? - -Mr. NORMAN. Well, I remember working in Salina. I did a car washing job -at the McElroy Chevrolet Co., and after I left there I came to Dallas -and I started working at the depository, the School Book Depository. - -Mr. BALL. That was about what year did you start working there? - -Mr. NORMAN. In 1961, I believe. - -Mr. BALL. 1961? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How long did you work there? - -Mr. NORMAN. Well, I think this coming October would have made 3 years. - -Mr. BALL. And you work there now? - -Mr. NORMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where do you work now? - -Mr. NORMAN. The Foxboro Co. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of business is that? - -Mr. NORMAN. Engineer instrumentation. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do? - -Mr. NORMAN. Porter. - -Mr. BALL. When did you leave the Texas School Book Depository for this -new job? - -Mr. NORMAN. I left during the Christmas holidays and the New Year's -leave after we got off for New Year's. - -Mr. BALL. In November 1963, this is this last fall, what kind of work -were you doing at the Texas School Book Depository? - -Mr. NORMAN. I was employed as an order filler. - -Mr. BALL. Is that the same kind of a job that Lee Oswald had? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you know him? - -Mr. NORMAN. No; just as an employee, that is all. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't know him before he came to work there? - -Mr. NORMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you get acquainted with him after he was there? - -Mr. NORMAN. No. Just knew his name. I mean, you know, he wouldn't talk -to anybody so I didn't---- - -Mr. BALL. He didn't talk to anybody? - -Mr. NORMAN. No. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever engage him in conversation at the time he was -there? - -Mr. NORMAN. No, sir. I just, you know, speak to him, that is all. I -wouldn't engage in conversation. - -Mr. BALL. Are you the boys that use clipboards? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. The order fillers? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Somebody gives you orders by way of papers? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What do you do after you get an order on a paper? - -Mr. NORMAN. We had a different publisher in the building, and each -individual, he had a publisher that he would take, maybe I would take -to a publisher and the other orders would and we would fill orders and -bring them down to the first floor for them to be checked and shipped -out. - -Mr. BALL. You have to go up and get the books out of cartons, do you? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. If we didn't have enough down in the bins down on the -first floor we would have to go upstairs, to complete the orders. - -Mr. BALL. Do you fill some of your orders from the first floor? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. How many floors did you go to that morning yourself, November -22? Can you remember that? - -Mr. NORMAN. I believe I went as far as the fifth floor that morning. - -Mr. BALL. That is as far---- - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever go to the sixth floor that day, that morning? - -Mr. NORMAN. I can't--yes, I went up that morning during the time I -think they were laying the floor up there when I went up there. - -Mr. BALL. Did you help them? - -Mr. NORMAN. No; I was just up there shooting the breeze. - -Mr. BALL. Now what about Lee Oswald. Do you know what publisher he -filled orders for? - -Mr. NORMAN. I knew Scott-Foresman. - -Mr. BALL. Scott-Foresman. - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. That was the publisher assigned to him? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. Well, I don't know if he was assigned to him but he -filled, you know. - -Mr. BALL. He filled those orders? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You say then he filled Scott-Foresman book orders? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know where those books were kept? - -Mr. NORMAN. The majority of them were on the sixth floor. - -Mr. BALL. They were? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And did you also keep a stock of Scott-Foresman books on the -first floor? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What time did you get to work on the morning of November the -22d? - -Mr. NORMAN. I got there I would say about 5 minutes of 8 o'clock, 5 -minutes until 8 in the morning. - -Mr. BALL. You weren't late? - -Mr. NORMAN. No; I wasn't. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see Lee Oswald when you got to work? - -Mr. NORMAN. No; I don't recall seeing him when I got to work. - -Mr. BALL. Did you remember seeing him at any time that morning? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes; around about 10 or 10:15, somewhere in the -neighborhood of that. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you see him? - -Mr. NORMAN. Over in the bins by the windows, I mean looking out, you -know, at Elm Street, towards Elm Street. - -Mr. BALL. On what floor? - -Mr. NORMAN. The first. - -Mr. BALL. Looking out on Elm through windows, is that right? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. I was looking out the window. He happened to come -by to fill orders. - -Mr. BALL. Did he say anything to you? - -Mr. NORMAN. No; he didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Did you say anything to him? - -Mr. NORMAN. No. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see him at any time after that? - -Mr. NORMAN. No; no more. I don't recall seeing him any more that day. - -Mr. BALL. What time did you quit for lunch? - -Mr. NORMAN. I believe I quit around 11:45, I think. - -Mr. BALL. And what did you do after you quit? - -Mr. NORMAN. Well, I went in, washed up and I---- - -Mr. BALL. When you go in and wash up, where did you go to wash up? - -Mr. NORMAN. In the men's bathroom. - -Mr. BALL. Is that bathroom near the domino room or off the domino room? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes; that is the one off the domino room. - -Mr. BALL. It is the one near the domino room? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes; one near the domino room. - -Mr. BALL. Right next to it? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. After you washed up, what did you do? - -Mr. NORMAN. Well, I got my lunch, I ate my lunch in the domino room. - -Mr. BALL. Did you bring your lunch from home that day? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes; I believe I did. - -Mr. BALL. And in what kind of a package did you bring it? - -Mr. NORMAN. A brown paper sack, paper bag. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you keep your lunch or leave your lunch from 8 in -the morning until you got it at noon? - -Mr. NORMAN. I left it in the window of the domino room. - -Mr. BALL. Did you notice any other packages in that window that morning? - -Mr. NORMAN. I can't say that I noticed any that morning but I know that -some of the fellows did keep their lunches in there. - -Mr. BALL. Did you notice anything, any unusual package in there that -day? - -Mr. NORMAN. No; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. You got your lunch and did you eat your lunch? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes; I ate my lunch. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you when you ate your lunch? - -Mr. NORMAN. In the domino room, as I recall. - -Mr. BALL. Who was with you at that time? - -Mr. NORMAN. I can't remember who ate in the lunchroom, I mean the -domino room, with me. - -Mr. BALL. Did some other employees eat there? - -Mr. NORMAN. I think there was someone else in there because we usually -played dominoes in there but that particular day we didn't play that -morning. - -Mr. BALL. Why didn't you play that morning? - -Mr. NORMAN. Well, didn't nobody show up there to play like the guys -usually come in to play. - -Mr. BALL. You usually play dominoes during the noon hour? - -Mr. NORMAN. Noon hour and the break period. - -Mr. BALL. After you ate your lunch, what did you do? - -Mr. NORMAN. I got with James Jarman, he and I got together on the first -floor. - -Mr. BALL. Where was James Jarman when you got together with him? - -Mr. NORMAN. He was somewhere in the vicinity of the telephone, I -believe. I am not for sure. - -Mr. BALL. Out near the bins? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What do you call James Jarman? - -Mr. NORMAN. Junior. - -Mr. BALL. And you and Junior did what? - -Mr. NORMAN. We went outside. - -Mr. BALL. You went out the front door, did you? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. That is the Elm Street? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you stand? - -Mr. NORMAN. We stood on the Elm Street sidewalk. - -Mr. BALL. On the sidewalk? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. We didn't go any further than that point. - -Mr. BALL. What time was it that you went out there? - -Mr. NORMAN. Oh, I would say, I don't know exactly, around 12 or 12:10, -something like that. - -Mr. BALL. Who was standing with you when you were standing on the -sidewalk, on the Elm Street sidewalk? - -Mr. NORMAN. I remember it was Danny Arce. - -Mr. BALL. And who else? - -Mr. NORMAN. I remember seeing Mr. Truly and Mr. Campbell. They were -standing somewhere behind us, not exactly behind us but they were back -of us. - -Mr. BALL. Anybody else? - -Mr. NORMAN. Well, I believe Billy Lovelady, I think. He was sitting on -the steps there. - -Mr. BALL. He was? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. That is about all the employees I remember seeing out -there. There were more people out there. - -Mr. BALL. Did you stay there? - -Mr. NORMAN. Well, we stayed there I believe until we got the news that -the motorcade was coming down, let's see, is that Commerce, no Main, -because Commerce--we went back in the building, James Jarman and I. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go when you went in the building? - -Mr. NORMAN. We got the east elevator. No; the west. - -Mr. BALL. The west elevator? - -Mr. NORMAN. The west elevator. And went to the fifth floor. - -Mr. BALL. The west elevator is the one you use the push button on? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes; the one you pull the gate. - -Mr. BALL. That is right. It is a push button elevator. - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And you went up to the fifth floor? - -Mr. NORMAN. Fifth floor. - -Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the fifth floor? - -Mr. NORMAN. Usually, one reason was you usually fill orders, I fill -quite a few orders from the fifth floor and I figured I could get, you -know, a better view of the parade or motorcade or whatever it is from -the fifth floor because I was more familiar with that floor. - -Mr. BALL. And what did you and Junior do after you got off the elevator? - -Mr. NORMAN. We walked around to the windows facing Elm Street and I -can't recall if any were open or not but I remember we opened some, two -or three windows ourselves. - -Mr. BALL. Did somebody join you there? - -Mr. NORMAN. Bonnie Ray, I can't remember if he was there when we got -there or he came later. I know he was with us a period of time later. - -Mr. BALL. And then did he come down before the President's motorcade -came by? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes; he was with us before the motorcade came by. - -Mr. BALL. Did you move around any from one window to another before the -motorcade? - -Mr. NORMAN. Well, if I did I didn't move no further than those three -windows that were open in the front there. I didn't move any further -than that. - -Mr. BALL. I show you some pictures here. This is Commission Exhibit No. -482. Do you recognize anybody in that window? - -Mr. NORMAN. That is myself and that is Bonnie Ray Williams. - -Mr. BALL. "Myself" is pointed to as to the window in the extreme -southeast corner of the fifth floor, is that right? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And Bonnie Ray is in the window next to you? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. I show you 480. Do you see the window in which you were -looking? - -Mr. NORMAN. That window is where I was looking. - -Mr. BALL. In other words, you were looking in the extreme southeast -corner? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Put over here a red arrow which shows the window from which -you were looking. - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Here is 482. Do you see your picture in that window? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. The same picture? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Point out your picture on 482. - -Mr. NORMAN. That is myself. - -Mr. BALL. I will point that out with a red arrow on 482. Now were you -standing up or sitting down? - -Mr. NORMAN. I was sitting. I wasn't at all standing up. - -Mr. BALL. At the time the President's motorcade went by, how were you -sitting? - -Mr. NORMAN. I believe I wasn't on my knees I don't think, but I was in -a hunched over position somewhat like this. - -Mr. BALL. Last Friday afternoon, that is March 20, you and Junior -Jarman and Bonnie Ray Williams went up on the fifth floor with me, -didn't you? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And a photographer? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And you took a position; did you? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What position did you take at the window? First of all, what -did I ask you to do? What position did I ask you to take? - -Mr. NORMAN. I believe you told us to take the position that we thought -we were in during the time of the motorcade. - -Mr. BALL. And do you recognize this picture, 486? Do you show in the -picture? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; that is myself there. - -Mr. BALL. You are sitting there looking out a window. How does that -picture compare with what you remember as to your position when the -President's motorcade went by? - -Mr. NORMAN. Well, I don't think--I think I was facing the window more -straight during that time, I mean the motorcade, that I am in this -position here. - -Mr. BALL. That picture shows you looking out the window down the -street, is that right? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And this is a picture of Bonnie Ray also, isn't it? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Now you saw the President go by, did you? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What happened then? - -Mr. NORMAN. About the time that he got past the window where I was, -well, it seems as though he was, I mean you know, brushing his hair. -Maybe he was looking to the public. - -Mr. McCLOY. Saluting? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. With which arm? - -Mr. NORMAN. I believe it was his right arm, and I can't remember what -the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard -the shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or -something, and then another shot and I believe Jarman or someone told -me, he said, "I believe someone is shooting at the President," and I -think I made a statement "It is someone shooting at the President, and -I believe it came from up above us." - -Well, I couldn't see at all during the time but I know I heard a third -shot fired, and I could also hear something sounded like the shell -hulls hitting the floor and the ejecting of the rifle, it sounded as -though it was to me. - -Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear? - -Mr. NORMAN. Three. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not you said anything to the men -then as to whether or not you heard anything from above you? - -Mr. NORMAN. Only I think I remember saying that I thought I could hear -the shell hulls and the ejection of the rifle. I didn't tell I think I -hear anybody moving, you know. - -Mr. BALL. But you thought, do you remember you told the men then that -you thought you heard the ejection of the rifle? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And shells on the floor? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Falling? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything as to where they thought the shots -came from? - -Mr. NORMAN. Well, I don't recall of either one of them saying they -thought where it came from. - -Mr. BALL. But you did? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And you said you thought it came from where? - -Mr. NORMAN. Above where we were, above us. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see any dust or dirt falling? - -Mr. NORMAN. I didn't see any falling but I saw some in Bonnie Ray -Williams' hair. - -Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything about it? - -Mr. NORMAN. I believe Jarman told him that it was in his hair first. -Then I, you know, told him it was and I believe Jarman told him not to -brush it out his hair but I think he did anyway. - -Mr. BALL. After that happened, what did you do? - -Mr. NORMAN. Well, we ran to the farthest window facing the expressway. - -Mr. BALL. The farthest window, is that right? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. I have here a diagram of this fifth floor. - -Mr. McCLOY. May I interrupt there. - -Mr. BALL. Go right ahead. - -Mr. McCLOY. You spoke about seeing the President sort of slump over -after the first shot? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes; I believe the first. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the President hit on any subsequent shots? - -Mr. NORMAN. No; I don't recall seeing that. - -Mr. BALL. Here is a diagram of the sixth floor. - -Mr. NORMAN. The sixth floor? - -Mr. BALL. Of the fifth floor rather, which is Commission's 487, and -this is the southeast corner window. To what window did you and your -two friends run? - -Mr. NORMAN. This is the south. This is the window we were in. We came -to this last, I believe it is the next to the last or the last window -on this end here, right here. - -Mr. BALL. And the other day when you were up on the fifth floor with a -photographer, you ran to that window, did you? - -Mr. NORMAN. Well, we ran to the window, we thought it was the window we -ran to. - -Mr. BALL. And you opened that window? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And had your picture taken? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Here is 485. Is that the window as you remembered it that you -ran to? - -Mr. NORMAN. I can't say it was that particular window that day but it -was between these two windows here. - -Mr. BALL. One of the two windows? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. This is marked Y here on 487, is that correct? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Why did you run down to that window? - -Mr. NORMAN. Well, it seems as though everyone else was running towards -the railroad tracks, and we ran over there. Curious to see why -everybody was running that way for. I thought maybe---- - -Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything about going up to the sixth floor? - -Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember anyone saying about going up to the sixth -floor. - -Mr. BALL. Then did you leave that window that you have marked Y on 487? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And you went to what window? - -Mr. NORMAN. To the west window. - -Mr. BALL. Look on the diagram and tell me what window you went to, as -you remember it? - -Mr. NORMAN. It was between this point here, these two right here. - -Mr. BALL. That is marked Z? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Is that correct? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do when you went to that window? - -Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember if we raised the window or not but I -remember looking out the window that day. - -Mr. BALL. Here is a picture 489 taken last Friday when you were with me -on that floor? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Do you show in the picture? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Is that the window you looked out of? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I believe that is the one. - -Mr. BALL. What did you look at when you looked out that window? - -Mr. NORMAN. We saw the policeman, and I guess they were detectives, -they were searching the empty cars over there. I remember seeing some -guy on top of them. - -Mr. BALL. On top of the cars? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. They were going through there. - -Mr. BALL. You saw police officers searching cars over on the railroad -tracks? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And how long did you stay at that window? - -Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember, but it wasn't very long. - -Mr. BALL. Then where did you go? - -Mr. NORMAN. We ran down to the first floor. - -Mr. BALL. As you were at the fifth floor, looking west as shown in -Exhibit No. 489, were you able to see the stairwell? - -Mr. NORMAN. No. - -Mr. BALL. Why? - -Mr. NORMAN. Because there is a row of bins there that prevents you -standing in a position that I was in to keep you from seeing it. - -Mr. BALL. There is 492. Does that show the row of bins? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes; the row of bins. - -Mr. BALL. They block off the stairwell. - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember that we tried an experiment when you were -there by putting you three men in line and then taking a picture to see -if we could see any one of you? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. This is a picture 491. That is your picture, isn't it? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where are you? - -Mr. NORMAN. In the middle. - -Mr. BALL. And who is that on the end? - -Mr. NORMAN. Which end? Oh, this is Bonnie Ray Williams. - -Mr. BALL. Who is this one? - -Mr. NORMAN. James Jarman. - -Mr. BALL. And then a picture, do you remember another picture was -taken, 492? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I remember that picture. - -Mr. BALL. Can you see anyone in that picture? - -Mr. NORMAN. I see one person. - -Mr. BALL. Can you make him out? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. I recognize him as James Jarman. - -Mr. BALL. Jarman, the one on the end? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now did you see any police officer come up on that floor? - -Mr. NORMAN. I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't. - -Mr. NORMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Or did you see Mr. Truly come up? - -Mr. NORMAN. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Or did you hear any elevator operator? - -Mr. NORMAN. No; I don't recall. - -Mr. BALL. Going up or down? - -Mr. NORMAN. No, sir; I don't recall anyone. - -Mr. BALL. When you were brought to the first floor or when you came to -the first floor how did you go down there? - -Mr. NORMAN. We came down the stairway. I remember we came down the -stairway. - -Mr. BALL. When you got to the first floor did someone talk to you, -police officers? - -Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember a police officer talking to me as soon as -we got down there. I don't. - -Mr. BALL. Did anyone talk to you later? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Who? - -Mr. NORMAN. I guess they were Secret Service men. But I know they -talked to us. - -Mr. BALL. Did they take you over to the police station later? - -Mr. NORMAN. No; they didn't carry me to the police station. - -Mr. BALL. When did you leave the place? - -Mr. NORMAN. Oh, I would say somewhere around 2 o'clock, somewhere in -the vicinity of that. - -Mr. BALL. Who did you leave with? - -Mr. NORMAN. Mr. James Jarman. I can't remember who. - -Mr. BALL. From the time that you went down on the first door until you -left the building to go home did you leave the building at all? - -Mr. NORMAN. No; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you stay? - -Mr. NORMAN. They kept us on the first floor. - -Mr. BALL. You did make a statement later to the Secret Service, didn't -you? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. I have here a document 493, which is a copy of a statement -made by this witness, which I now mark 493. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 493, for -identification.) - -Mr. BALL. The document that I have here shows the date 4th of December -1963. Do you remember having made a statement to Mr. Carter, Special -Agent of the Secret Service, on that day? - -Mr. NORMAN. I can't remember the exact date but I believe I remember -Mr. Carter. - -Mr. BALL. I want to call your attention to one part of the statement -and I will ask you if you told him that: - -"Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds -later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from -directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to -the floor. I could also hear the bolt action of the rifle. I also saw -some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that -whoever had fired the shots was directly above me." - -Did you make that statement to the Secret Service man? - -Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember making a statement that I knew the shots -came from directly above us. I didn't make that statement. And I don't -remember saying I heard several seconds later. I merely told him that I -heard three shots because I didn't have any idea what time it was. - -Mr. BALL. I see. Did you tell them that you heard the bolt action of -the rifle? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And that you heard the expended cartridges fall to the floor? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes; I heard them making a sound. - -Mr. BALL. I would like to offer this into evidence. - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to, heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit -No. 493 for identification, was received in evidence.) - -Mr. McCLOY. You used the expression you heard the ejection. This refers -to the bolt action? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. Those are the same things? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; that is what I mean. - -Mr. McCLOY. That is what you meant by that? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What language did you use when you talked to the Secret -Service man, do you know? Did you say you heard the ejection or that -you heard the bolt action? Which did you use? - -Mr. NORMAN. I probably said the ejection. - -Mr. BALL. That is what you think you said? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. The same thing you said here? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember Friday that we conducted an experiment to see -whether or not you could hear? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. From the sixth floor? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And where did you put yourself in order to conduct the -experiment? - -Mr. NORMAN. In the same window. I may not have been in the same -position but I was in the same window. - -Mr. BALL. The same window? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And that window was open? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And the window, was the window on the sixth floor also open? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; they told me it was open. I didn't see it. - -Mr. BALL. And a Secret Service man went upstairs with a rifle, didn't -he? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What did you hear on the fifth floor? - -Mr. NORMAN. Well, I heard the same sound, the sound similar. I heard -three something that he dropped on the floor and then I could hear the -rifle or whatever he had up there. - -Mr. BALL. You could hear the rifle, the sound of an ejection? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear the sound of the bolt going back and forth? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I sure did. - -Mr. BALL. You could hear it clearly, could you? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now there has been a new floor put in on the sixth floor, -hasn't there? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. The day that you were there on November 22, what was the -condition of the ceiling and the floor of the sixth floor? - -Mr. NORMAN. I would say that you could see daylight through there -because during the times they put the plywood down you can see the -plywood, some portion of the plywood, so I would say you could see a -little daylight during that time. - -Mr. BALL. When you were there Friday afternoon, did you look up at the -ceiling from where you were sitting at the southeast window on the -fifth floor? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What could you see on the ceiling? - -Mr. NORMAN. There was one place I could see the plywood and then -another place you could still see a little daylight, I mean peering -through the crack. - -Mr. BALL. What about the joint where the upper floor or the floor of -the sixth and ceiling of the fifth floor comes against the wall. Could -you see daylight through there? - -Mr. NORMAN. Against the wall? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes; in one place you could see a small amount of daylight. - -Mr. BALL. Now the day of the experiment last Friday when you heard the -cartridges eject, the bolt action and the cartridges ejecting---- - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Was there any noise outside? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes; there was. - -Mr. BALL. What was it? - -Mr. NORMAN. There was a train and there were trucks and cars. - -Mr. BALL. Was there more noise or less noise on the day you conducted -the experiment last Friday, March 20, than on November 22, at 12:30? - -Mr. NORMAN. It was more noise last Friday than it was November 22. - -Mr. BALL. Was there any train going by on November 22? - -Mr. NORMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Were there any trucks going by on November 22? - -Mr. NORMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. - -Mr. McCLOY. How did you get your job at the Texas School Book -Depository? - -Mr. NORMAN. Well, as I remember the time that I told you before I used -to live in Salina and washing cars at the Chevrolet company I had a -friend that lived in Dallas and he was working down there, and he told -me that he thought that I could get a job down there, and that is how I -got familiar with the place. I did go by there and Mr. Truly gave me a -job. - -Mr. McCLOY. Were you getting better pay there than you had at your -former job? - -Mr. NORMAN. At the Chevrolet company? - -Mr. McCLOY. Yes. - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I was getting better pay there. - -Mr. McCLOY. Do you have any rough recollection of the amount of time -that passed between the time you heard the first shot and when you ran -down to the west end of the building and looked out the window there -and the time when you left the fifth floor and finally came down to the -first floor where the police officers were? Can you give me a general -estimate of about how much time that took? - -Mr. NORMAN. To come down from the fifth floor? - -Mr. McCLOY. Yes. From the time you first heard the shot and saw what -was going on in the motorcade and then ran down toward the western end -of the building and then as I understand your testimony, you left there -and went down to the--did you go down to the fourth floor first or did -you go all the way down? - -Mr. NORMAN. I believe we went all the way. - -Mr. McCLOY. Until you got down to the first floor, how much would you -say was the entire length of that time, from the first shot until you -got down on the first floor? - -Mr. NORMAN. Oh, I would say somewhere between 10 or 15 minutes, -somewhere like that. - -Mr. McCLOY. I don't think I have any other questions. - -Mr. BALL. I have one question. - -On the 26th of November, an FBI agent named Kreutzer advises us in a -report that he talked to you. Do you remember that? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You remember? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes; I remember talking to him. I don't know his name. - -Mr. BALL. He reports that you told him that you heard a shot and that -you stuck your head from the window and looked upward toward the roof -but could see nothing because small particles of dirt were falling from -above you. Did you tell him that? - -Mr. NORMAN. I don't recall telling him that. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever put your head out the window? - -Mr. NORMAN. No, sir; I don't remember ever putting my head out the -window. - -Mr. BALL. And he reports that you stated that two additional shots -were fired after you pulled your head back in from the window. Do you -remember telling him that? - -Mr. NORMAN. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. - -Mr. McCLOY. Have you ever had any difficulty with the law? Have you -ever been convicted of a crime? - -Mr. NORMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. At the time after you heard the shots, did you have any -thought that you might run upstairs and see if anybody was up there -where the shots were coming from there? - -Mr. NORMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you feel that it might be dangerous to go upstairs? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. You testified that you had not seen Oswald except this one -occasion in the morning. Did you hear any of your friends or coworkers -say whether they had seen Oswald on that morning? - -Mr. NORMAN. Not until after---- - -Mr. McCLOY. After the assassination? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; that is the only time. - -Mr. BELIN. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -The CHAIRMAN. Did you see Brennan down there when you came downstairs? -Did you come out the front door? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I came out the front door and I remember seeing -Mr. Brennan. - -Mr. BELIN. About how long after the shooting was that? - -Mr. NORMAN. It wasn't very long because--I can't remember the time but -it wasn't too long a period of time, and I remember seeing him because -he had on a steel helmet, a little steel helmet. - -Representative FORD. Was he standing with another man and they called -you over? - -Mr. NORMAN. I don't know if he was exactly standing with another man, -but it was several people standing around there, and I remember him -talking and I believe I remember him saying that he saw us when we -first went up to the fifth floor window, he saw us then. I believe I -heard him say that, but otherwise I don't know if he was standing by. -There was quite a few people standing around there. - -Representative FORD. You were stopped and Mr. Brennan made these -comments? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I remember. - -Representative FORD. On the front entrance steps? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Of the Depository Building? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes. - -The CHAIRMAN. Then did you go out of the building, away from the -building or come back? - -Mr. NORMAN. No, sir; we had to go back inside. - -The CHAIRMAN. You had to go back? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. In other words, you went out in front? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And then came back? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. After you had gone to the first floor? - -Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Did law enforcement officers make you go back or -did you do it on your own initiative? - -Mr. NORMAN. I remember, I don't know if this is the only time or not, -but I remember the law enforcement saying not to let anybody leave from -the building and I can't remember if that is the time we went back in -the building or before or what. - -Mr. BALL. Who did you go out with? - -Mr. NORMAN. I know James Jarman and I went out. I can't remember. - -Representative FORD. May I ask did we get into the testimony enough of -his background and biography? - -Mr. BALL. Clear from where he was born, through high school and all his -jobs through high school. - -He is 26 years old, married, and never been in any trouble in his life. -I think that is all. - -Mr. McCLOY. Thank you, Mr. Norman. - -The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much for coming. - -Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - - -TESTIMONY OF JAMES JARMAN, JR. - -Mr. BELIN. Chief Justice Warren, this is Mr. Jarman. - -The CHAIRMAN. How do you do. Glad to see you. - -Mr. BELIN. Congressman Ford---- - -Mr. McCLOY. Would you hold up your right hand. Do you solemnly swear -that the testimony you give in this case will be the truth, the whole -truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. JARMAN. I do. - -Mr. BALL. The statement has been read to you as to the purpose of your -examination before the Commission? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Hasn't it, Mr. Jarman? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. State your name, please? - -Mr. JARMAN. James Jarman, Junior. - -Mr. BALL. What do they call you, Junior? - -Mr. JARMAN. Junior. - -Mr. BALL. Where do you live? - -Mr. JARMAN. 4930 Echo. - -Mr. BALL. Are you married? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What is your age? - -Mr. JARMAN. 34. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you born? - -Mr. JARMAN. Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. BALL. Have you lived there all your life? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes; I have. - -Mr. BALL. You still live there? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And did you go to school in Dallas? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes; I did. - -Mr. BALL. How far did you go through school? - -Mr. JARMAN. To the 10th grade and went to California in 1947 and stayed -there for about a year. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do in California? - -Mr. JARMAN. I was living with my aunt at the time. - -Mr. BALL. Did you work? - -Mr. JARMAN. No; I was still in school. - -Mr. BALL. What school did you go to? - -Mr. JARMAN. Alameda High. - -Mr. BALL. Then where did you go after you came back, after you left -California? - -Mr. JARMAN. I came back to Dallas. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go to school any more? - -Mr. JARMAN. No, I went into service. - -Mr. BALL. What year did you go in the service? - -Mr. JARMAN. 1948. - -Mr. BALL. How long were you in the service? - -Mr. JARMAN. I was in the service up until 1952. - -Mr. BALL. What service? - -Mr. JARMAN. U.S. Army. - -Mr. BALL. And did you enlist in 1948? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Enlisted? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did 4 years in the Army? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes; I did. - -Mr. BALL. Did you receive an honorable discharge from the Army? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And then what did you do? - -Mr. JARMAN. I came out and stayed out for about until July of 1953. - -Mr. BALL. Then what? - -Mr. JARMAN. And reenlisted in the service again. - -Mr. BALL. How long did you stay in the Army this time? - -Mr. JARMAN. Until 1956. - -Mr. BALL. And were you discharged then? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, I was. - -Mr. BALL. Did you get an honorable discharge? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And what did you do after that? - -Mr. JARMAN. Well, I started working at the Texas School Book Depository -for about 2 months after. - -Mr. BALL. After you got out of the Army? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You are still there; are you? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Was there any period of time since 1956 to 1964 that you -didn't work there? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. How many times? - -Mr. JARMAN. I started in 1956. I worked from August up until November, -and I was laid off until December the same year and I started back -again and I worked up until 1958 I believe, 1958 or 1959, and I quit -there and went to Parkland Hospital. From there I went back to the -Depository. And I got laid off again and I went to Bakers Hotel, and -I think it was in 1961 I went back to the Depository and I have been -there ever since. - -Mr. BALL. What was your job at the Depository in November of 1963, last -fall? - -Mr. JARMAN. Checker. - -Mr. BALL. What does a checker do? - -Mr. JARMAN. He checks various orders, books and things that go out to -different schools. - -Mr. BALL. Do the order fillers bring the books down to where you have -your---- - -Mr. JARMAN. Right. - -Mr. BALL. On a table. You have a table? - -Mr. JARMAN. I have a table with a scale and I weigh these books up and -put the upholstery on them and put them on a little conveyor and the -wrappers wrap them or pack them, whichever one it may be. - -Mr. BALL. Did you know Lee Oswald? - -Mr. JARMAN. Only as a coworker. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to him while he was working there? - -Mr. JARMAN. I have had him to correct orders at various times. That is -about all. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to him about politics? - -Mr. JARMAN. No. - -Mr. BALL. Religion? - -Mr. JARMAN. No. - -Mr. BALL. Anything at all? - -Mr. JARMAN. Not until November the 22d. - -Mr. BALL. Not until that day? - -Mr. JARMAN. Not until that day. - -Mr. BALL. Did Oswald have any friends there? - -Mr. JARMAN. Well, not that I know of. - -Mr. BALL. Did he have any close friend that he would eat lunch with -every day? - -Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; not that I know of. - -Mr. BALL. Did you notice whether Oswald brought his lunch most of the -time or bought his lunch most of the time? - -Mr. JARMAN. Most of the time he brought his lunch. - -Mr. BALL. Most of the time he brought his lunch? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him buy his lunch? - -Mr. JARMAN. Well, occasionally. I don't think so. - -Mr. BALL. I don't understand. - -Mr. JARMAN. I mean sometimes he would go out of the building. One time -I know in particular that he went out, but he didn't buy any lunch. - -Mr. BALL. There is a catering service that comes by the building every -morning at 10 o'clock, isn't there? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him buy his lunch from this catering service? - -Mr. JARMAN. I think once or twice he did. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him when he was eating his lunch? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Where? - -Mr. JARMAN. Sometimes in the, as we called it, domino room, and again -over by the coffee table where they make coffee. - -Mr. BALL. Is that the first floor? - -Mr. JARMAN. That is the first floor. - -Mr. BALL. Now on November 22, what time did you get to work? - -Mr. JARMAN. About 5 minutes after 8. - -Mr. BALL. Was Oswald there when you got there? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you see him the first time? - -Mr. JARMAN. Well, he was on the first floor filling orders. - -Mr. BALL. Did you bring your lunch that day? - -Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do about lunch that day? - -Mr. JARMAN. I got a sandwich off the carrying truck. - -Mr. BALL. About what time of day? - -Mr. JARMAN. It was about 10 or a little after 10, maybe. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you put it, keep it until lunch? - -Mr. JARMAN. In the domino room. - -Mr. BALL. Where in the domino room? - -Mr. JARMAN. Well, they have two little windows, they have two sets of -windows in there and I put it in the window. - -Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Oswald that morning? - -Mr. JARMAN. I did. - -Mr. BALL. When? - -Mr. JARMAN. I had him to correct an order. I don't know exactly what -time it was. - -Mr. BALL. Oh, approximately. Nine, ten? - -Mr. JARMAN. It was around, it was between eight and nine, I would say. - -Mr. BALL. Between 8 and 9? - -Mr. JARMAN. Between 5 minutes after 8 and 9. - -Mr. BALL. You had him correct an order? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him again that morning? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. I talked to him again later on that morning. - -Mr. BALL. About what time? - -Mr. JARMAN. It was between 9:30 and 10 o'clock, I believe. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you when you talked to him? - -Mr. JARMAN. In between two rows of bins. - -Mr. BALL. On what floor? - -Mr. JARMAN. On the first floor. - -Mr. BALL. And what was said by him and by you? - -Mr. JARMAN. Well, he was standing up in the window and I went to the -window also, and he asked me what were the people gathering around on -the corner for, and I told him that the President was supposed to pass -that morning, and he asked me did I know which way he was coming, and I -told him, yes; he probably come down Main and turn on Houston and then -back again on Elm. - -Then he said, "Oh, I see," and that was all. - -Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him again? - -Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What time did you quit for lunch? - -Mr. JARMAN. It was right about 5 minutes to 12. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do when you quit for lunch? - -Mr. JARMAN. Went in the rest room and washed up. - -Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? - -Mr. JARMAN. Went and got my sandwich and went up in the lounge and got -me a soda pop. - -Mr. BALL. Where is the lounge? - -Mr. JARMAN. On the second floor. - -Mr. BALL. On the second floor? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Then where did you go after you got your soda pop? - -Mr. JARMAN. Came back and went down to the window. - -Mr. BALL. What window? - -Mr. JARMAN. Where Oswald and I was talking. - -Mr. BALL. Where? - -Mr. JARMAN. Between those two rows of bins. - -Mr. BALL. Where Oswald and you had been talking? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do there? - -Mr. JARMAN. I was eating part of my sandwich there, and then I came -back out and as I was walking across the floor I ate the rest of it -going toward the domino room. - -Mr. BALL. You say you ate the rest of it when? - -Mr. JARMAN. Walking around on the first floor there. - -Mr. BALL. Did you sit down at the window when you ate part of your -sandwich? - -Mr. JARMAN. No; I was standing. - -Mr. BALL. And did you have the pop in your hand, too? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes; I had a sandwich in one hand and pop in the other. - -Mr. BALL. You say you wandered around, you mean on the first floor? - -Mr. JARMAN. On the first floor. - -Mr. BALL. Were you with anybody when you were at the window? Did you -talk to anybody? - -Mr. JARMAN. No; I did not. - -Mr. BALL. Were you with anybody when you were walking around finishing -your sandwich? - -Mr. JARMAN. No; I wasn't. I was trying to get through so I could get -out on the street. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see Lee Oswald? - -Mr. JARMAN. No; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. After his arrest, he stated to a police officer that he had -had lunch with you. Did you have lunch with him? - -Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. When you finished your sandwich and your bottle of pop, what -did you do? - -Mr. JARMAN. I throwed the paper that I had the sandwich in in the box -over close to the telephone and I took the pop bottle and put it in the -case over by the Dr. Pepper machine. - -Mr. BALL. And then what did you do? - -Mr. JARMAN. Then I went out in front of the building. - -Mr. BALL. With who? - -Mr. JARMAN. Harold Norman, Bonnie Ray, and Danny Arce and myself. - -Mr. BALL. You say Bonnie Ray Williams? - -Mr. JARMAN. Bonnie Ray Williams. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember him going with you? - -Mr. JARMAN. No; I am sorry. Excuse me, but it was Harold Norman and -myself and Daniel Arce. - -Mr. BALL. What about Billy Lovelady? - -Mr. JARMAN. I didn't go out with them. They came out later. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see Billy Lovelady out there? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where was he? - -Mr. JARMAN. Standing on the stairway as you go out the front door. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you stand? - -Mr. JARMAN. I was standing over to the right in front of the building -going toward the west. - -Mr. BALL. Were you on the sidewalk or curb? - -Mr. JARMAN. On the sidewalk. - -Mr. BALL. The sidewalk in front of the Texas School Book Depository -Building? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How long did you stand there? - -Mr. JARMAN. Well, until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25. - -Mr. BALL. Who do you remember was standing near you that worked with -you in the Book Depository? - -Mr. JARMAN. Harold Norman and Charles Givens and Daniel Arce. - -Mr. BALL. What about Mr. Truly? - -Mr. JARMAN. He wasn't standing close to me. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see him? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Who was he with? - -Mr. JARMAN. He was with the Vice President of the company. - -Mr. BALL. What is his name? - -Mr. JARMAN. O. V. Campbell. - -Mr. BALL. Where were they standing? - -Mr. JARMAN. They were standing at the corner of the building in front -of the mail boxes. - -Mr. BALL. You left there, didn't you, and went some place? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. With whom? - -Mr. JARMAN. Harold Norman and myself. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go? - -Mr. JARMAN. We went around to the back of the building up to the fifth -floor. - -Mr. BALL. You say you went around. You mean you went around the -building? - -Mr. JARMAN. Right. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't go through and cross the first floor? - -Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; there was too many people standing on the stairway -there, so we decided to go around. - -Mr. BALL. You went in the back door? - -Mr. JARMAN. Right. - -Mr. BALL. That would be the north entrance to the building, wouldn't it? - -Mr. JARMAN. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Did you take an elevator or the stairs? - -Mr. JARMAN. We took the elevator. - -Mr. BALL. Which elevator? - -Mr. JARMAN. The west side elevator. - -Mr. BALL. That is the one you use a punch button on, isn't it? - -Mr. JARMAN. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go? - -Mr. JARMAN. To the fifth floor. - -Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the fifth floor? - -Mr. JARMAN. We just decided to go to the fifth floor. - -Mr. BALL. Was there any reason why you should go to the fifth floor any -more than the fourth or the sixth? - -Mr. JARMAN. No. - -Mr. BALL. Did you know who made the suggestion you go to the fifth -floor? - -Mr. JARMAN. Well, I don't know if it was myself or Hank. - -Mr. BALL. When you got there was there anybody on the fifth floor? - -Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do when you got to the fifth floor? - -Mr. JARMAN. We got out the elevator and pulled the gate down. That was -in case somebody wanted to use it. Then we went to the front of the -building, which is on the south side, and raised the windows. - -Mr. BALL. Which windows did you raise? - -Mr. JARMAN. Well, Harold raised the first window to the east side -of the building, and I went to the second rear windows and raised, -counting the windows, it would be the fourth one. - -Mr. BALL. It would be the fourth window? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did somebody join you then? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir; a few minutes later. - -Mr. BALL. Who joined you? - -Mr. JARMAN. Bonnie Ray Williams. - -Mr. BALL. And where did he stand or sit? - -Mr. JARMAN. He took the window next to Harold Norman. - -Mr. BALL. I show you a picture which is 480, a picture of the Texas -School Book Depository Building. Can you show me the window before -which you were standing and out of which you were looking? - -Mr. JARMAN. This window here. - -Mr. BALL. It is marked W on this picture. Where was Harold Norman, the -window out of which Harold Norman was looking? - -Mr. JARMAN. He was first right here. - -Mr. BALL. That is the one marked with a red arrow? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Where was Bonnie Ray Williams? - -Mr. JARMAN. Bonnie Ray Williams was in this one. - -Mr. BALL. Next to the window of Norman, is that right? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Was---- - -Mr. BELIN. What exhibit is that? - -Mr. BALL. That is 480. This is 482. You recognize those two pictures? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Who are they? - -Mr. JARMAN. Harold Norman and Bonnie Ray Williams. - -Mr. BALL. Now the other day you went up to the fifth floor of the Texas -State School Book Depository with me and a photographer, and had your -picture taken, did you not? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And what did I ask you to do before the picture was taken? - -Mr. JARMAN. To try to get in the same position that we were the day the -assassination was. - -Mr. BALL. And did you do that? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. We tried to the best of our knowledge. - -Mr. BALL. I have a picture here I would like to have marked as -Commission Exhibit 494. - -Mr. McCLOY. It is so marked. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 494 for -identification.) - -Mr. BALL. Is that your picture? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Taken last Friday afternoon, March 20th, is that right? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now does it or does it not show your position at about the -time, as you were watching the President's motorcade go by? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir; that is the position I had as it was going by. - -Mr. BALL. You are on your knees? - -Mr. JARMAN. Right, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I show this to each member of the Commission. This is a new -exhibit. 485, you recognize that picture? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What does it show? - -Mr. JARMAN. It shows that I was on my knees as the motorcade was -passing. - -Mr. BALL. And shows the other two men? - -Mr. JARMAN. As the motorcade was passing. - -Mr. BALL. It shows their position? - -Mr. JARMAN. At the time. - -Mr. BALL. At the time the motorcade was passing? - -Mr. JARMAN. Right, sir. - -Mr. BALL. This has been introduced into evidence. I don't believe you -have seen that, Congressman. - -Representative FORD. This is yourself here? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes. - -Representative FORD. The one closest to an individual looking at the -photograph. - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. After the motorcade passed, what happened? - -Mr. JARMAN. After the motorcade turned, going west on Elm, then there -was a loud shot, or backfire, as I thought it was then--I thought it -was a backfire. - -Mr. BALL. You thought it was what? - -Mr. JARMAN. A backfire or an officer giving a salute to the President. -And then at that time I didn't, you know, think too much about it. And -then the second shot was fired, and that is when the people started -falling on the ground and the motorcade car jumped forward, and then -the third shot was fired right behind the second one. - -Mr. BALL. Were you still on your knees looking up? - -Mr. JARMAN. Well, after the third shot was fired, I think I got up and -I ran over to Harold Norman and Bonnie Ray Williams, and told them, I -said, I told them that it wasn't a backfire or anything, that somebody -was shooting at the President. - -Mr. BALL. And then did they say anything? - -Mr. JARMAN. Hank said, Harold Norman, rather, said that he thought the -shots had came from above us, and I noticed that Bonnie Ray had a few -debris in his head. It was sort of white stuff, or something, and I -told him not to brush it out, but he did anyway. - -Mr. BALL. He had some white what, like plaster? - -Mr. JARMAN. Like some come off a brick or plaster or something. - -Mr. BALL. Did Norman say anything else that you remember? - -Mr. JARMAN. He said that he was sure that the shot came from inside the -building because he had been used to guns and all that, and he said it -didn't sound like it was too far off anyway. And so we ran down to the -west side of the building. - -Mr. BALL. Did Norman say anything about hearing cartridges or ejection -or anything like that, do you remember? - -Mr. JARMAN. That was after we got down to the west side of the building. - -Mr. BALL. After you got down where? - -Mr. JARMAN. To the west side of the building. - -Mr. BALL. Down the west side? - -Mr. JARMAN. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Now you ran down to the west side of the building, did you? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And when you were up there you showed me the window to which -you ran, didn't you? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. The picture was taken of you at that place? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. When you ran down there was the window open or closed? - -Mr. JARMAN. It was closed. - -Mr. BALL. And who opened it? - -Mr. JARMAN. I did. - -Mr. BALL. And what did you do after you opened the window? - -Mr. JARMAN. I leaned out and the officers and various people was -running across the tracks, toward the tracks over there where they had -the passenger trains, and all, boxcars and things. - -Mr. BALL. I show you 488. What does that show? - -Mr. JARMAN. That shows me leaning out the window and Bonnie Ray and -Harold Norman was over to the side of me. - -Mr. BALL. What window? - -Mr. JARMAN. The window on the west side of the building. - -Mr. BALL. Is that the one to which you ran after you heard the shots? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And you looked out that window? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How did you happen to run to that window? - -Mr. JARMAN. Well, I wanted to see what was going on mostly, because -that was after the motorcade car had took off, and I thought they had -stopped under the underpass, but they hadn't. So they went on around -the bend, and after I couldn't see from there I ran to another, the -second window. - -Mr. BALL. That second one you ran to, you pointed that out to me last -Friday, did you? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And the picture was taken of that, is that right? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And that window is on which side? - -Mr. JARMAN. On the west side of the building also. - -Mr. BALL. I show you 489. Is that a picture of the west window? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And what did you see when you looked out that window? - -Mr. JARMAN. When I looked out that window, I saw the policemen and the -secret agents, the FBI men, searching the boxcar yard and the passenger -train and things like that. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you when you heard Harold Norman say something -that he had heard cartridges? - -Mr. JARMAN. All that took place right here in this corner after we had -went to this window. - -Mr. BALL. This corner. What corner do you mean? - -Mr. JARMAN. In the corner of the building right after we had looked out -this window. - -Mr. BALL. Which corner? - -Mr. JARMAN. Right here on the west side of the building. - -Mr. BALL. On the west side of the building? - -Mr. JARMAN. Right. - -Mr. BALL. And would that be the window that is shown in 488, or the -window that is shown in 489? - -Mr. JARMAN. It was between the two windows. - -Mr. BALL. Between the two? - -Mr. JARMAN. As we was going to this window. - -Mr. BALL. To that window? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What did you hear him say? - -Mr. JARMAN. He said it was something sounded like cartridges hitting -the floor, and he could hear the action of the rifle, I mean the bolt, -as it were pulled back, or something like that. - -Mr. BALL. Had you heard anything like that? - -Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; I hadn't. - -Mr. BALL. Had you heard any person running upstairs? - -Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Or any steps upstairs? - -Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Any noise at all up there? - -Mr. JARMAN. None. - -Mr. BALL. I have here a diagram which is 487. This is the southeast -corner of the building on this diagram. Do you recognize that? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. This is the Elm Street side? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Will you point out the window to which you three boys ran -when you looked out, you opened the window and looked out towards -the---- - -Mr. JARMAN. This one here. - -Mr. BALL. The one marked Y on this diagram? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Is that right? - -Mr. JARMAN. This one right here. - -Mr. BALL. That one marked Y. - -Mr. JARMAN. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Where is the window to which you went afterwards to look out -when you saw the police and other agents searching boxcars? - -Mr. JARMAN. I went to the second window from the south side of the -building on the west. - -Mr. BALL. Is that the one marked Z? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. At that time could you see the stairwell when you stood there -at Z? - -Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; I couldn't. - -Mr. BALL. Why? - -Mr. JARMAN. Because there is a row of bins there with books in them. - -Mr. BALL. They block your view? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And did we conduct an experiment there to see how much you -could see from Z? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I show you a picture, 491. Do you remember standing in line -near the stairwell? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. That is you on the end, isn't it? - -Mr. JARMAN. Right. - -Mr. BALL. On the end, the farthest from the stairwell? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And we took a picture, is that right? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Of that area. Does that show the bins? - -Mr. JARMAN. That shows the bins. - -Mr. BALL. I am now referring to 492. - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now was there any part of the stairwell that you could see -when you were along this west wall? - -Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Could you see the elevators? - -Mr. JARMAN. I imagine if I had looked over, but I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember any of the elevators coming up or down as you -were standing there at the west window? - -Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Looking toward the railroad track? - -Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember seeing Mr. Truly? - -Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Or did you see a motorcycle officer come up? - -Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Or did you hear the elevator go up? - -Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did you men do after you looked out the window toward -the railroad tracks from the west window? - -Mr. JARMAN. Well, after Norman had made his statement that he had heard -the cartridges hit the floor and this bolt action, I told him we'd -better get the hell from up here. - -Mr. BALL. Did anybody suggest you go up to the sixth floor? - -Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And where did you go then? - -Mr. JARMAN. Down. We ran to the elevator first, but the elevator had -gone down. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go? - -Mr. JARMAN. Then we ran to the stairway and ran downstairs, and we -paused a few minutes on four. - -Mr. BALL. Which elevator did you run to? - -Mr. JARMAN. To the elevator on the west side. - -Mr. BALL. On the west. That wasn't there? - -Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. When you went downstairs, what did you see on the first floor? - -Mr. JARMAN. When we got downstairs on the first floor, I think the -first one I seen was Eddie Piper. - -Mr. BALL. Eddie Piper works there, does he? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And who else did you see? - -Mr. JARMAN. And I ran into Roy Edward Lewis, which is also another -employee. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody else there? - -Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. I ran, then we ran to the front door. - -Mr. BALL. You ran to the front door? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir; and out on the street. - -Mr. BALL. You and who? - -Mr. JARMAN. Harold Norman. - -Mr. BALL. You and Harold went out there? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see a fellow named Brennan? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you see him first? - -Mr. JARMAN. He was talking to a police officer. - -Mr. BALL. How was he dressed? - -Mr. JARMAN. He was dressed in construction clothes. - -Mr. BALL. Anything else, any other way to describe him? - -Mr. JARMAN. Well, he had on a silverlike helmet. - -Mr. BALL. Hard-hat? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you stay out there very long? - -Mr. JARMAN. Just a few minutes. - -Mr. BALL. Then where did you go? - -Mr. JARMAN. We heard him talking to this officer about that he had -heard these shots and he had seen the barrel of the gun sticking out -the window, and he said that the shots came from inside the building, -and I told the officer that I believed that they came from inside the -building also, and then he rushed us back inside. - -Mr. BALL. The officer did? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How did you know this fellow was Brennan? - -Mr. JARMAN. Well, at that time I didn't know him at all. - -Mr. BALL. Have you learned that since? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Who told you that the man in the hard-hat was Brennan? - -Mr. JARMAN. Well, they have had him down there at the building a couple -of times. - -Mr. BALL. Were you taken to the police station? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you make a statement? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. When? - -Mr. JARMAN. That Saturday morning. - -Mr. BALL. The next day? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How long did you stay in the building, the Texas School Book -Depository Building that afternoon? - -Mr. JARMAN. I'd say it was somewhere between two and two-thirty when -they turned us loose and told us to go home. - -Mr. BALL. When you were there did you notice whether any of the -employees were missing? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. When did you notice, and who was missing? - -Mr. JARMAN. When we started to line up to show our identification, -quite a few of us asked where was Lee. That is what we called him, and -he wasn't anywhere around. We started asking each other, have you seen -Lee Oswald, and they said no. - -Mr. BALL. Was there anybody else missing? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Who. - -Mr. JARMAN. Charles Douglas Givens, I believe. - -Mr. BALL. Charles Givens? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Anybody else? - -Mr. JARMAN. I can't recall. - -Mr. McCLOY. Had Givens been in the Depository that morning? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir; he had. - -Mr. McCLOY. He had been there? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did Givens come back later? - -Mr. JARMAN. He didn't come back to the building until they picked him -up. - -Mr. BALL. He did come back to the building before you left, did he? - -Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. He didn't? - -Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. He was not there when you left? - -Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. When you were on the fifth floor, did you pay any attention -to whether or not there was noise above you, before the shots were -fired? - -Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. In other words, if there was noise up there--let's put it -this way. If there had been any noise up there, you didn't notice it? - -Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Now after the shooting, did you hear any noise from upstairs? - -Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you listen for any? - -Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How long was it before you ran down to the west end, from the -time of the shots until you ran down to the west end, about how much -time do you think it was? - -Mr. JARMAN. After the third shot was fired I would say it was about a -minute. - -Mr. McCLOY. You have had military experience, haven't you? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. And you can recognize rifle shots when you hear them? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. But you didn't hear, you didn't catch the sound of the bolt -moving? - -Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the President actually hit by the bullets? - -Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. I couldn't say that I saw him actually hit, but -after the second shot, I presumed that he was, because I had my eye on -his car from the time it came down Houston until the time it started -toward the freeway underpass. - -Mr. McCLOY. You saw him crumple, you saw him fall, did you? - -Mr. JARMAN. I saw him lean his head. - -Representative FORD. You actually saw the car lurch forward, did you? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. That is a distinct impression? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes. - -Representative FORD. And you had followed it as it turned from Main on -to Houston and followed it as it turned from Houston on to Elm? - -Mr. JARMAN. Right, sir. - -Representative FORD. Had your eye on the car all the time? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Where did you think the sound of the first shot -came from? Do you have a distinct impression of that? - -Mr. JARMAN. Well, it sounded, I thought at first it had came from -below. That is what I thought. - -Representative FORD. As you looked out the window and you were looking -at the President's car. - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Did you have a distinct impression as to whether -the sound came from your left or from your right? - -Mr. JARMAN. I am sure it came from the left. - -Representative FORD. But your first reaction, that is was from below. - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. When the second shot came, do you have any -different recollection? - -Mr. JARMAN. Well, they all sounded just about the same. - -Representative FORD. You distinctly recall three shots? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. And at what point did you get up from where you -were on your knees in the window? - -Mr. JARMAN. When the motorcar picked up speed. - -Representative FORD. Was this after what you thought was the third shot? - -Mr. JARMAN. The third shot; yes. - -Representative FORD. Mr. McCloy said you had been in the army 8 years, -two 4-year hitches. Was there any doubt in your mind that this was a -gunshot, either one of the three? - -Mr. JARMAN. Not after the second shot. I didn't have any doubt in my -mind then. - -Representative FORD. When did you first learn of the President's -motorcade route? - -Mr. JARMAN. That morning. - -Representative FORD. Friday morning, November 22d? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. How did you find out about it? - -Mr. JARMAN. The foreman of the employees on the first floor. - -Representative FORD. What is his name? - -Mr. JARMAN. William Shelley was standing up talking to Mrs. Lee. - -Representative FORD. To Mrs. Lee? - -Mr. JARMAN. Miss Lee, or Mrs. Lee, I think, and he was discussing to -her about the President coming, asked her was she going to stand out -there and see him pass. - -Representative FORD. About what time Friday morning was this? - -Mr. JARMAN. I imagine it would be about--I think it was between 8:30 -and 9:00. I am not sure. - -Representative FORD. You hadn't read about it in the papers the night -before or that morning? - -Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. - -Representative FORD. When did you have this conversation with Lee -Oswald, where he asked you--you told him that the motorcade was coming -by the School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. JARMAN. It was some time that morning, between 9:30 and 10:30. - -Representative FORD. This was after you heard Mr. Shelley and Miss or -Mrs. Lee talk? - -Mr. JARMAN. Discuss it--yes. - -Representative FORD. Did Oswald ask you, or did you initiate the -conversation and tell Oswald of the route? - -Mr. JARMAN. He asked me. - -Representative FORD. What was his reaction? - -Mr. JARMAN. After I had told him the route that the President probably -would take, he just said, "Oh, I see" and went back to filling orders. - -Representative FORD. You testified earlier that you were standing on -the steps or in front of the School Depository Building prior to the -President's motorcade coming by the building. - -Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. I was standing on the sidewalk. - -Representative FORD. But in front of the building? - -Mr. JARMAN. In front of the building. - -Representative FORD. Then you said you went around the building. - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes. - -Representative FORD. What route did you take? Did you go down Elm or -did you go down Houston? - -Mr. JARMAN. I went to the corner of the building facing Elm, and turned -going north on Houston. - -Representative FORD. Can you turn around and--here is the main entrance -on Elm Street. And you were standing out on the sidewalk more or less -where? - -Mr. JARMAN. Right here. - -Representative FORD. In which direction did you go then? - -Mr. JARMAN. This way. - -Representative FORD. You went by the front to the corner of Houston and -Elm, and then down Houston towards the loading dock? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. And where did you get on the elevator? - -Mr. JARMAN. We walked around to the back entrance and went through this -door here, and this elevator here was up on six, I believe. And we -walked around the elevator and took the west elevator up. - -Representative FORD. How could you tell this elevator was at six? - -Mr. JARMAN. Because after we got around to the other side we looked up. - -Representative FORD. You could see it was on six? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes. - -Representative FORD. This was about what time? - -Mr. JARMAN. That was about 12:25 or 12:28. - -Representative FORD. You got off the fifth floor? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. As you rode the elevator, you noticed the other -one was on the sixth floor? - -Mr. JARMAN. Right, sir. - -Representative FORD. Have you ever been in any trouble with the police -or did you ever have any disciplinary troubles in the Army? - -Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How was Oswald dressed that morning when you saw him at work? -Do you remember that? - -Mr. JARMAN. I don't exactly recall how he was dressed. I think he had -on some dress pants. But I didn't notice the color. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of pants? - -Mr. JARMAN. Some kind of these slacks you wear. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of a shirt? - -Mr. JARMAN. Ivy leagues, I believe. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of a shirt, do you know? - -Mr. JARMAN. He never hardly worked in a shirt. He worked in a T-shirt. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember if he had a T-shirt on that day? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes; he had on a T-shirt that morning. - -Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you see at any time Oswald that morning with a bundle -or package of any kind? - -Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. When did you first come to the conclusion that any of the -shots came from up above you? - -Mr. JARMAN. After we had ran down to this last window on the west side -of the building, and we was discussing it. And then after I got to -thinking about all the debris on Bonnie Ray's head, and I thought about -that, also. And so I told Hank, I say, "That shot probably did come -from upstairs, up over us," and Hank said, "I know it did, because I -could hear the action of the bolt, and I could hear the cartridges drop -on the floor." - -And I told him there we better get the hell from up here. - -The CHAIRMAN. Now, tell me, when you went downstairs--when you were -downstairs and went out the first time, that is, just before you met -Brennan, did anyone stop you as you went out the building? - -Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. You could have gone right away if you wanted to, could -you? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. And then you happened to run across Brennan, and had this -conversation with him? - -Mr. JARMAN. No. He ran up to the police officer and was telling him -about the man sticking a gun out the window. And I heard him telling -the officer that. - -And I told him that I thought the shots came from inside, too. - -The CHAIRMAN. I see. - -Are you a married man? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Do you have a family? - -Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir; three children. - -The CHAIRMAN. I think that is all. - -Thank you very much for coming and helping us out. We appreciate it -very much. - -Mr. JARMAN. We are glad to do it. - -Mr. BALL. Mr. Chairman, we would like to recall Mr. Brennan. - - -TESTIMONY OF HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN RESUMED - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, you are the same Howard Leslie Brennan who -testifled this morning here? - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know a George Murray, of the National Broadcasting -Co.? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I do not. - -Mr. BELIN. Have you ever worked for the Union Terminal Co.---- - -Mr. McCLOY. You are still under oath, you realize. - -Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Have you ever worked for the Union Terminal Co. in Dallas? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I have not. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever state to anyone that you heard shots from -opposite the Texas School Book Depository and saw smoke and paper -wadding come out of boxes on a slope below the railroad trestle at the -time of the assassination? Did you ever say that or that, in substance, -to anyone? - -Mr. BRENNAN. I did not. - -Mr. BELIN. That is all. - -Mr. BRENNAN. Is there another Howard Brennan? - -Mr. BELIN. Well, sir; we don't know. We wanted to know whether or not -you ever made this statement to anyone. - -Mr. BRENNAN. No, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Brennan. - -Mr. BRENNAN. I would like to ask a question off the record. - -The CHAIRMAN. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - - -TESTIMONY OF ROY SANSOM TRULY - -Mr. BELIN. Next we will call Mr. Truly. - -Mr. McCLOY. Will you raise your right hand, and stand? - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give in this case will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. TRULY. I do. - -Mr. McCLOY. I would like to state, Mr. Truly, what the purpose of this -hearing is. - -This is to hear the testimony of several witnesses, or people close -to the event of the assassination of the President, to get as much -knowledge as we can of the facts concerning that event, which largely -centers around the School Book Depository and the people in it, on the -afternoon of November 22d. - -Will you state for the record your full name? - -Mr. TRULY. Roy Sansom Truly. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, where do you live? - -Mr. TRULY. I live at 4932 Jade Drive, Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. BELIN. Are you originally from Dallas? - -Mr. TRULY. No. I have been in Dallas since 1925. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were you born, sir? - -Mr. TRULY. Hubbard, Tex. - -Mr. BELIN. And what was your birth date? - -Mr. TRULY. August 29, 1907. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, where did you go to school? - -Mr. TRULY. I finished high school at Hubbard. - -Mr. BELIN. In Texas? - -Mr. TRULY. In Texas. - -Mr. BELIN. And what did you do after you finished high school? - -Mr. TRULY. Well, I came to Dallas in the fall of that year and I have -been there ever since. - -Mr. BELIN. For whom did you become employed when you came to Dallas? - -Mr. TRULY. I believe--my father ran a cafe here in Dallas, and I worked -with him a short while. And then in the fall of 1925, I went to work -for Higginbotham, Bailey, Logan Co. - -Mr. BELIN. What business is that? - -Mr. TRULY. That is wholesale drygoods. - -Mr. BELIN. And how long did you work with them? - -Mr. TRULY. I believe a little less than a year. - -Mr. BELIN. And then where did you go? - -Mr. TRULY. I went to work for National Casket Co. - -Mr. BELIN. And about how long did you work for them? - -Mr. TRULY. I couldn't be certain. Several years--maybe 3 or 4 or 5 -years. - -Mr. BELIN. And in what capacity did you work for them? - -Mr. TRULY. Well, I worked in the cloth room, learning the trade of -putting in the drapery and things in the caskets. - -Mr. BELIN. And from there, where did you go? - -Mr. TRULY. I worked a short time at the Dallas Coffin Co., several -months. It wasn't very long. And I left there and during the depression -I worked for several things. I drove a laundry truck off and on for a -couple of years. - -(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.) - -Mr. TRULY. I believe I even worked for the WPA back there in those days. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -And after the depression, where did you start working then? - -Mr. TRULY. I went to work for the Texas School Book Depository in July -1934. - -Mr. BELIN. And have you been employed by the Texas School Book -Depository since that date, since July 1934? - -Mr. TRULY. That is right. - -(At this point, Mr. Dulles entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. BELIN. In what capacity have you worked for that company? - -Mr. TRULY. First, when I first went to work for this company, I had -charge of the miscellaneous order department, which is actually a -one-man operation. I filled orders for books other than state-adopted -textbooks. - -Mr. BELIN. And then what? - -Mr. TRULY. I worked on through that time until the present time. - -During the war I worked in the North American plant at Arlington. - -Mr. BELIN. That is the North American Aviation? - -Mr. TRULY. North American Aviation plant at Arlington, for around 14 -months, at night. But I continued to hold my job. - -Well, I would go down to work 2, 3, 4 hours a day. Shortly after that, -I took charge of all the shipping. - -Well, I have been superintendent of the operation since some time in -the late 1944. - -Mr. BELIN. You have been superintendent of the Texas School Book -Depository. And do you have any other positions with the company at -this time? - -Mr. TRULY. I am a director--I am a member of the board of directors of -the Texas School Book Depository. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that a State organization or a private company? - -Mr. TRULY. It is a private corporation. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, when did you first hear of the name of Lee Harvey -Oswald? - -Mr. TRULY. I heard the name on or about October 15th. - -Mr. BELIN. Of what year? - -Mr. TRULY. Of 1963. - -Mr. BELIN. And from whom did you hear the name? Could you just relate -to the Commission the circumstances, if you would, please? - -Mr. TRULY. I received a phone call from a lady in Irving who said her -name was Mrs. Paine. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -What did Mrs. Paine say, and what did you say? - -Mr. TRULY. She said, "Mr. Truly"--words to this effect--you -understand--"Mr. Truly, you don't know who I am but I have a neighbor -whose brother works for you. I don't know what his name is. But he -tells his sister that you are very busy. And I am just wondering if you -can use another man," or words to that effect. - -And I told Mrs.--she said, "I have a fine young man living here with -his wife and baby, and his wife is expecting a baby--another baby, in a -few days, and he needs work desperately." - -Now, this is not absolutely--this is as near as I can remember the -conversation over the telephone. - -And I told Mrs. Paine that--to send him down, and I would talk to -him--that I didn't have anything in mind for him of a permanent nature, -but if he was suited, we could possibly use him for a brief time. - -Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else from that conversation that you -remember at all, or not? - -Mr. TRULY. No. I believe that was the first and the last time that I -talked to Mrs. Paine. - -In fact, I could not remember her name afterwards until I saw her name -in print, and then it popped into my mind that this was the lady who -called me. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Anything else on--what was this--October 15th--about Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; I am sure it was on October 15th. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can remember about Lee Harvey Oswald on -that day? - -Mr. TRULY. She told me she would tell him to come down and see me. - -So he came in, introduced himself to me, and I took him in my office -and interviewed him. He seemed to be quiet and well mannered. - -I gave him an application to fill out, which he did. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he fill it out in front of you, or not? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes; he did. And he told me--I asked him about experience -that he had had, or where he had worked, and he said he had just served -his term in the Marine Corps and had received an honorable discharge, -and he listed some things of an office nature that he had learned to do -in the Marines. - -I questioned him about any past activities. I asked him if he had ever -had any trouble with the police, and he said, no. So thinking that he -was just out of the Marines, I didn't check any further back. I didn't -have anything of a permanent nature in mind for him. He looked like a -nice young fellow to me--he was quiet and well mannered. He used the -word "sir", you know, which a lot of them don't do at this time. - -So I told him if he would come to work on the morning of the 16th, it -was the beginning of a new pay period. So he filled out his withholding -slip, with the exception of the number of dependents. - -He asked me if I would hold that for 3 or 4 days, that he is expecting -a baby momentarily. - -So some 4 days or so later--I don't remember the exact day--he told me -that he had this new baby, and he wanted to add one dependent. - -He finished filling it out. And I sent it up to Mr. Campbell who makes -out the payroll for the company. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, on October 15th you saw him fill out the application -form for employment in his own writing? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. You also saw him fill out the withholding slip, except for -the number of exemptions, in his own writing, is that correct? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Any other conversation that you can remember from your -meeting on October 15th? - -Mr. TRULY. Well, he told me that he needed a job. He said he had a wife -and child to support. And he also repeated that he was expecting a -child in a few days. - -And I told Lee Oswald that I had some work, that if he could fit in, -of a temporary nature, we could put him on. But I didn't have anything -in mind of a permanent job at that time, because I didn't have any -openings for a permanent person. And he said he would be glad to have -any type of work I would give him, because he did need--and he stressed -he really needed a job to support his family. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else from that conversation on October 15th? - -Mr. TRULY. Nothing that I can recall, except that he seemed to be -grateful that I was giving him the chance of a little extra work, if -you want to call it that. - -He left, and I didn't see him any more until the morning of the 16th. - -Mr. BELIN. What were his hours of work to be? - -Mr. TRULY. His hours were from 8 in the morning until 4:45 in the -afternoon. - -His lunch period was from 12 to 12:45. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you have a time clock there that they punch or not? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. The next morning, do you know whether or not he came to work? - -Mr. TRULY. He came to work the next morning. I told him what his duties -were to be--would be filling book orders. And I told Mr. Shelley, who -is on that floor and has charge of the miscellaneous department. - -Now, this particular thing as to whether I called a boy or Mr. Shelley -did--anyway, we put Lee Oswald with another worker who was experienced -in filling orders. This boy showed him the location of the various -publishers' stock. He worked with him, it seems to me, like only an -hour or two, and then he started filling orders by himself. And from -then on he worked alone. - -He would occasionally ask the other boys where certain stock items were -when he couldn't find them. But he was filling small parcel post and -a few freight orders for the various schools--as they would come down -from the office. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, could you describe how his work progressed as he was -working with you? - -Mr. TRULY. Well, he seemed to catch on and learn the location of the -stock. We have several thousand titles of books in our warehouse. But -he was filling mostly one or two publishers' orders. - -Mr. BELIN. What publishers were those? - -Mr. TRULY. The main publisher was Scott, Foresman and Co. - -Now, they have quite a lot of small orders, all through the year. They -are one of our biggest publishers. So it kept him busy filling mostly -their orders, plus some of the smaller publishers. Possibly he filled -some of Gregg Publishing Co. and others. But when he would run out of -Scott, Foresman orders, he would pick up other orders that might have -had several publishers' books on the same order. - -Incidentally, not only Scott, Foresman orders were billed separately. -There would be other publishers' orders on the same invoice. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, perhaps you might explain to the Commission just what -exactly the nature of your business is, and how an employee would go -about filling orders. - -Mr. TRULY. We are agents for a number of publishers. We furnish offices -for those who desire them in Texas. And our business is shipping, -inventorying, collecting, doing all the bookkeeping work for the -various publishers' books. - -Now, we have--most of the publishers' stock is lined up alphabetically -by titles or by stock numbers or code numbers, whichever determines -that. - -And the location of the books--each publisher's books are to -themselves. They are not mixed in with several other publishers on the -various floors. - -On the first floor we have bin stock, shelf stock, we fill a lot of -small orders from. - -And then in the basement the same. - -The fifth and the sixth floor, and part of the seventh floor is -overflow stock. It is reserve stock. - -But the boys have to go to those floors all during the day to pick up -stock and bring it to the first floor in order to process and complete -the orders for the checker. - -Mr. DULLES. What would reserve stock mean? - -Mr. TRULY. Actually it is not reserve stock--it is not surplus either. -It is part of our stock. But we can carry a limited amount only on the -first floor where we do our shipping. So they may get an order for a -hundred copies of a certain book and there may only be 10 or 15 or 20 -on the shelf on the first floor. They will have to go upstairs and get -a carton or two. And they replenish the first floor stock from that. - -And many of our freight orders are filled entirely from our reserve -stock. And they bring them to the first floor. All orders reach the -first floor, where they are checked and processed and packed and -shipped from that floor. - -Mr. BELIN. Where, generally, are Scott, Foresman books kept? - -Mr. TRULY. On the first floor and the sixth floor. We have a large -quantity of their books on the sixth floor. - -Mr. BELIN. And this is the area where Lee Harvey Oswald worked? - -Mr. TRULY. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. That publisher? - -Mr. TRULY. That publisher. He had occasion to go to the sixth floor -quite a number of times every day, each day, after books. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, when an order would come in, how would it get to the -individual employee, so the employee would go out and pick out the -books? - -Mr. TRULY. The orders came into our office and were processed by our -girls, priced and billed by the bill clerks, and then were sent down -a little chute to the first floor, a little dumbwaiter, regardless of -publisher. - -The boys would take them off of this dumbwaiter and carry them over on -to a little table near the checker stand. - -Various ones would sort out the publishers--sort out the orders by -publishers. - -Scott Foresman could be here, there would be a stock of Gregg and -Southwestern over here, we have a number of small publishers, maybe we -would group them altogether. And the boys usually know which particular -orders they are supposed to fill from, because they know the books, -they can tell. - -On each order it says, "SF" for Scott, Foresman on each invoice and so -forth. - -Mr. BELIN. Do they just pick up the piece of paper for the order and -carry them around with them? - -Mr. TRULY. That is right. Most of them use a clipboard. They may have -several orders at a time on the clipboard. That saves them going back -to the table continually for one order. These orders amount from -anything to $3 or $4 to $300 or $400, on up. - -But usually if a boy is filling Scott, Foresman's orders, for instance, -and he sees half a dozen over there, he will pick up maybe that many. - -But during our busy season, when we have stacks and stacks of orders on -the table, they don't try to put them all on a clipboard, they take a -few at a time--when they go to the sixth floor after stock, they try to -be certain what they need for several orders at one trip. - -Mr. BELIN. Who else worked on Scott, Foresman other than Lee Harvey -Oswald? - -Mr. TRULY. Well, I assume that all of our boys, all of our order -fillers have worked at some time or other, because when the boys finish -up the stocks they are working, the orders they are filling, if there -is anything left, regardless of publisher, they go fill it. - -But Scott, Foresman was one of our publishers that I would say would be -easiest for a new man to learn how to fill. - -And we have a lot of those orders. - -You can give a new man those orders, once he understands a little about -the alphabetical arrangement, the location of the stock, and he can go -ahead and fill orders, and you won't have to keep showing him things. -They are easier to fill. - -Usually the boys that fill a lot of the other orders are the boys that -have had more experience overall, they have been there some time, and -they will know the general location of all the stock, and it is just -easier for an experienced man to fill some other orders. - -Mr. BELIN. When they fill the orders, they go and get the books, and -bring them down to your wrapping and mailing section? - -Mr. TRULY. That is right. And they are checked to see that they are -in correct quantities and titles and called for on the order, or the -invoice. - -Then they are weighed up on parcel post scales, if they go by parcel -post, or they are processed over on the floor if they are big enough -for freight. - -Mr. BELIN. And, as I understand it, they would first look to see if the -title would be on the first floor in your bins, and then only if it -wasn't on the first floor would they go up to some of the upper floors -with your reserve stock, is that correct? - -Mr. TRULY. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of with regard to the particular -nature of the type of work that Lee Harvey Oswald did when he was -working for your company? - -Mr. TRULY. Nothing--except that we have occasionally--we would check -the number of orders that each boy filled per day, to see if he is -doing a day's work. And each invoice which is the billing of the order, -has a little section for a checker's number. And the order filler's -number. Our checker periodically would count at the end of the day the -number of orders that each order filler filled that day. - -We could tell at that time whether some of them were doing much more -work than others. - -And we also kept a list of mistakes that he catches a boy making, such -as filling the wrong quantity of books, or the wrong title. We didn't -do that every day, because it is a top heavy thing, and if we have to -keep a check on your boys all the time, it is not worthwhile. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you find generally--would you classify Lee Harvey -Oswald as an average employee--above average, or below average employee? - -Mr. TRULY. I would say for the nature of the work and the time he was -there, the work that he did was a bit above average. I wasn't on that -floor constantly. The boy, from all reports to me, and what I have seen -kept working and talked little to anybody else. He just kept moving. -And he did a good day's work. - -Mr. BELIN. What was his pay? - -Mr. TRULY. $1.25 an hour. - -Mr. BELIN. 5-day week? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he miss many days of work? - -Mr. TRULY. We had no record of him missing any days. - -Mr. BELIN. By the way, was your company open on Armistice Day, November -11th, or not? If you know. - -Mr. TRULY. We usually are closed on that day. - -Now, I just cannot remember whether we were closed that day or not. - -Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 496, -which appears to be a photostatic copy of a document, and I ask you to -state if you know what that is. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 496 for -identification.) - -Mr. TRULY. This is a copy of the application blank that Oswald filled -out. I am not familiar with his handwriting, because he didn't do -anything that we have records of. All the work that he ever did was put -his number or something. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, my first question is this: Is this particular form a -form of your company? - -Mr. TRULY. That is one form; yes. We changed it a little bit, and this -might have been just one that I pulled out. I can't recall whether it -is the one we use now or the one we did use. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, was this a form that you were using at about the time -he came for employment? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes. - -(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see him fill this out? Was it in your office or not? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes. He was sitting opposite me, and he filled it out on my -desk. - -Mr. BELIN. He filled this Exhibit 496 out on your desk? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. At this time we offer in evidence Exhibit 496. - -495 as yet has not been offered. And I don't know if 494 has been -offered or not. - -But, in the event it has not, we offer that in evidence. - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. - -(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission -Exhibits Nos. 494, 495, and 496 were received in evidence.) - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, are there any other observations you can give -about Lee Harvey Oswald as an employee during the month of October -1963, or during the month of November, prior to November 22, 1963? - -Mr. TRULY. Nothing that I can recall. - -I would speak to him in the morning when I would come through, and I -would say, "Good morning, Lee," and he would say, "Good morning, sir." - -I would ask him how he was. Occasionally I would ask about his baby, -and he would usually smile a big smile when I asked him how his new -baby was. And that was just about the extent of my conversation that I -can remember with the boy. - -But I usually saw him every morning as I would come through. He would -be working around the front part of the Scott, Foresman bins and shelf -space. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see whether or not he seemed to strike up any -friendship or acquaintanceship with the other employees? - -Mr. TRULY. No; I never noticed that anywheres. In fact, I would be -inclined--well--I never saw him with anyone else, except occasionally -talking, maybe asking where books were or something. - -I don't know what he would say. But very little conversation he had -with anyone. - -And he worked by himself. His job was something that he needed no help -with, other than to ask occasionally for stock. It wasn't a teamwork -job at all. - -Consequently, he didn't have much occasion to talk with the other boys. - -I thought it was a pretty good trait at the time, because occasionally -you have to spread your boys out and say, "Quit talking so much, let's -get to work." - -And it seemed to me like he paid attention to his job. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you notice whether or not he brought his lunch to work -generally? - -Mr. TRULY. I never was aware that he brought a lunch. I would see him -occasionally in the shipping department eating some little snack or -something--didn't pay much attention. Offhand, it seemed to be not too -much--a Coca-Cola, Dr. Pepper, and some little thing. - -Maybe he would be sitting there reading a book or a newspaper. - -Mr. BELIN. You would see him occasionally reading a newspaper at the -lunch hour? - -Mr. TRULY. I am sure so; yes. - -And occasionally--I didn't always go to lunch at 12--usually a -little after. And he would have to pass my door to go out the front. -Occasionally I had seen the boy go out, and maybe he would be gone long -enough to get across the street and back, with something in his hand. -I seem to recall possibly a newspaper, maybe potato chips or something -like that. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever have any discussions with him about politics or -anything like that? - -Mr. TRULY. Never. - -Mr. BELIN. Prior to November 22, did you have any discussion with him -about the Presidential motorcade, or hear him talk to anyone about it? - -Mr. TRULY. I never heard him talk to anyone, and I didn't talk to him -myself. - -Mr. BELIN. Any other things about Lee Harvey Oswald prior to November -22 that you can think of? - -Mr. TRULY. Offhand I cannot recall a thing. - -Just like I said--he seemed to go about his business in a quiet way, -didn't talk much, seemed to be doing a satisfactory job. - -Mr. BELIN. If you turn behind you, you will see Commission Exhibit No. -362, and it appears to be a floor plan which is entitled, "Texas School -Book Depository." You see the room marked Mr. Truly's office? - -Mr. TRULY. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. Does that appear to accurately depict where your office is -located? This is the front of the building here at the top. - -Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. And it was in the place marked Mr. Truly's office that Lee -Harvey Oswald filled out in front of you on your desk Exhibit 496? - -Mr. TRULY. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. And also the withholding slip? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Now I want to take you to the morning of November 22d. - -First let me ask you when you first heard your employees discussing -the fact that the motorcade would be going by the Texas School Book -Depository? Was that first on the morning of November 22d that you -heard that, or at any prior date? - -Mr. TRULY. I don't recall. I don't recall hearing any particular -discussion about him coming by. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -What time did you get to work on November 22d? - -Mr. TRULY. Around 8 o'clock, or shortly thereafter. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald at any time during that day? - -Mr. TRULY. I am almost certain that I saw him early that morning as I -came in, and spoke to him. - -Mr. BELIN. And where was he when you saw him? - -Mr. TRULY. I think he was around the front part of the Scott, Foresman -bins. - -Mr. BELIN. On what floor? - -Mr. TRULY. On the first floor. - -Mr. BELIN. Was he filling orders? - -Mr. TRULY. Apparently; yes, sir. I don't recall too close. But I am -almost certain that I talked to him that morning. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you recall any conversation you might have had with him, -or he might have had with you? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir. If there was anything, I just said "Good morning, -Lee", and he said, "Good morning, sir" and that would be the extent of -my conversation, if I saw him that morning, which I am almost certain I -did. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see him any other time during that day? - -Mr. TRULY. I cannot recall. I believe I saw him that morning later on, -around his work. But I probably wasn't on that floor too much, or out -on the floor that morning. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, when did you leave for lunch, Mr. Truly? - -Mr. TRULY. As near as I know, it was between somewheres around 12:10 or -shortly after, possibly 12:15. - -Mr. BELIN. At that time did you go out to lunch? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you go to eat? - -Mr. TRULY. We didn't go anywheres. Mr. Campbell and I---- - -Mr. BELIN. That is Mr. O. V. Campbell? - -Mr. TRULY. Mr. O. V. Campbell, vice president--and I had started out -for lunch. I don't know as we had any particular place in mind. We ate -at several places around there. - -It was around 12:10 or 12:15, I would say, to the nearest of my memory. - -As we got to the outside of the building, we noticed that it wouldn't -be long until the motorcade would come by, and we decided to wait and -watch the President come by. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where you were standing with Mr. Campbell? - -Mr. TRULY. I would judge out in Elm Street, 10 to 15 or 20 feet from -the front steps. We first stood on the steps, the bottom steps a few -minutes, and then we walked out in the line of spectators on the side -of Elm Street. - -Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 495, and -ask you to state, if you know, what this is. - -Mr. TRULY. This is the front entrance to our building. - -Mr. BELIN. In what direction would the camera be pointing? - -Mr. TRULY. Almost straight out from it. It would not be--well, it could -be on a little angle. - -Mr. BELIN. I mean would the camera be pointing east, west, north, or -south? - -Mr. TRULY. North. - -Mr. BELIN. And the camera would be pointing north on Exhibit 495. - -I wonder if on that exhibit you would put the place where you and Mr. -Campbell first stood, and mark that with the letter "A" if you would. - -Mr. TRULY. The street curved there, I suppose. I think possibly along -here somewheres. - -Mr. BELIN. You have marked a letter "A" on Exhibit 495. Now, I believe -you said that afterwards you went and moved out towards the street, is -that correct? - -Mr. TRULY. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. I am going to put up on the board Commission Exhibit No. -361. The bottom of the picture is relatively north, sir. - -And the top faces roughly south. - -And here is the Texas School Book Depository Building--located at -Houston and Elm. - -Mr. TRULY. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you could put on Exhibit 361 with the letter "T" -the spot at which you were standing when you moved to a closer position -to watch the motorcade. - -Mr. TRULY. I could be off a few feet, but I believe possibly over this -way just a bit--that is within 3 or 4 or 5 feet of this area. - -We were almost out in this. And I think when the motorcade came around, -we probably pushed out even a bit farther. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, by this, you are referring to the entrance to the -parkway, is that correct? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. And you say that you are either at the spot marked by the -letter "T" or perhaps a little bit to the east of that? - -Mr. TRULY. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. And that you gradually might have moved a little bit towards -the south, towards the parkway, is that correct? - -Mr. TRULY. That is correct. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Do you know approximately what time you got there, Mr. Truly? To the -best of your recollection. - -Mr. TRULY. 3 or 4 minutes after we reached the entrance, the walkway, -we stood on the steps 2 or 3 minutes, and then I don't believe--we just -gradually moved out a bit. - -And then when the policemen leading the motorcade came off of Main on -to Houston, we saw them coming, and then we just moved out a little -farther to the edge of the parkway. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you notice any other company employees with you other -than Mr. Campbell at that time? - -Mr. TRULY. Well, I did. I noticed several. Mrs. Reid was standing -there close. And it seemed like there were several of the other -employees standing out in front of the building. But I cannot--I -think Bill Shelley was standing over to my right as I faced the -motorcade--somewheres in that area. - -I noticed just before the motorcade passed there were, I believe, three -of our colored boys had come out and started up, and two of them came -back. And I didn't see them when the motorcade passed. - -But they had started across Houston Street up Elm, and they came back -later on, and I think those were the ones that were--two of them were -the ones on the fifth floor. Possibly they could not see over the -crowd. They are short boys. I wasn't doing too well at that, myself. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -What did you next see with reference to the motorcade? - -Mr. TRULY. Do you mind me---- - -Mr. BELIN. Do you want to turn that over, sir? Will that be easier for -you? - -Mr. TRULY. It might be easier for the gentlemen when I point this out. - -Now, what was the question? - -Mr. BELIN. My question is what did you see with reference to the -motorcade? - -Mr. TRULY. All right. - -We saw the motorcycle escort come off of Main and turn onto Houston -Street. - -Mr. BELIN. Main would be down here, and it would be coming off Houston, -heading towards the building? - -Mr. TRULY. Headed towards the building. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. TRULY. And it went on down this way. And immediately after---- - -Mr. BELIN. By "this way" you mean the street marked Parkway? - -Mr. TRULY. I assume that is the underpass that you have marked Parkway. - -Mr. BELIN. The street leading to the expressway, that diagonal street? - -Mr. TRULY. That is right. - -And the President's car following close behind came along at an average -speed of 10 or 15 miles an hour. It wasn't that much, because they were -getting ready to turn. And the driver of the Presidential car swung out -too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into -this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed -down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the -middle lane of the parkway. Not being familiar with the street, he came -too far out this way when he made his turn. - -Mr. BELIN. He came too far to the north before he made his curve, and -as he curved--as he made his left turn from Houston onto the street -leading to the expressway, he almost hit this north curb? - -Mr. TRULY. That is right. Just before he got to it, he had to almost -stop, to pull over to the left. - -If he had maintained his speed, he would probably have hit this little -section here. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Now, what is your best estimate of the speed as he started to go down -the street here marked Parkway? - -Mr. TRULY. He picked up a little speed along here, and then seemed to -have fallen back into line, and I would say 10 or 12 miles an hour in -this area. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Then what did you see happen? - -Mr. TRULY. I heard an explosion, which I thought was a toy cannon or a -loud firecracker from west of the building. Nothing happened at this -first explosion. Everything was frozen. And immediately after two more -explosions, which I realized that I thought was a gun, a rifle of some -kind. - -The President's--I saw the President's car swerve to the left and stop -somewheres down in this area. It is misleading here. And that is the -last I saw of his car, because this crowd, when the third shot rang -out--there was a large crowd all along this abutment here, this little -wall, and there was some around us in front--they began screaming -and falling to the ground. And the people in front of myself and Mr. -Campbell surged back, either in terror or panic. They must have seen -this thing. I became separated from Mr. Campbell. They just practically -bore me back to the first step on the entrance of our building. - -Mr. BELIN. When you saw the President's car seem to stop, how long did -it appear to stop? - -Mr. TRULY. It would be hard to say over a second or two or something -like that. I didn't see--I just saw it stop. I don't know. I didn't see -it start up. - -Mr. BELIN. Then you stopped looking at it, or you were distracted by -something else? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes. The crowd in front of me kind of congealed around me -and bore me back through weight of numbers, and I lost sight of it. - -I think there were a lot of people trying to get out of the way of -something. They didn't know what. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do or see? - -Mr. TRULY. I heard a policeman in this area along here make a remark, -"Oh, goddam," or something like that. I just remember that. It -wasn't a motorcycle policeman. It was one of the Dallas policeman, I -think--words to that effect. - -I wouldn't know him. I just remember there was a policeman standing -along in this area about 7, 8, or 10 feet from me. - -But as I came back here, and everybody was screaming and hollering, -just moments later I saw a young motorcycle policeman run up to the -building, up the steps to the entrance of our building. He ran right -by me. And he was pushing people out of the way. He pushed a number of -people out of the way before he got to me. I saw him coming through, I -believe. As he ran up the stairway--I mean up the steps, I was almost -to the steps, I ran up and caught up with him. I believe I caught up -with him inside the lobby of the building, or possibly the front steps. -I don't remember that close. But I remember it occurred to me that -this man wants on top of the building. He doesn't know the plan of the -floor. And that is--that just popped in my mind, and I ran in with him. -As we got in the lobby, almost on the inside of the first floor, this -policeman asked me where the stairway is. And I said, "This way". And I -ran diagonally across to the northwest corner of the building. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, let me, if I can--turning to Exhibit 362 again, I -wonder if you would, with this--we can first do it with this pen, if -you would--trace your route inside there. Point out the place inside -the lobby where you talked to the policeman, where he said "where is -the stairway." - -Mr. TRULY. I believe along right there. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Could you put a "T" on Exhibit 362, if you would. - -Mr. TRULY. I could be wrong, but I am almost positive that is the place. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Now--and this is inside the glass or plastic set of doors shown on -Exhibit 495, is that correct? - -Mr. TRULY. That is correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, he said to you what? - -Mr. TRULY. Where is the stairway. - -Mr. BELIN. And what did you say to him? - -Mr. TRULY. I said "This way." - -Mr. BELIN. Now, I wonder if you would take this pen and show the route -that you took with the policeman, or take your own pen, if you would, -sir--starting from point "T" on Exhibit 362. - -Mr. TRULY. I ran in front of him. - -Mr. BELIN. You better mark on the exhibit, sir. - -Mr. TRULY. Took this route. There is a swinging door and a counter, -what we call our will call counter right here. - -Mr. BELIN. Is it here, or here? - -Mr. TRULY. No, wait a minute. - -There--right here. We came in this way. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you still want to put point "T" up here? - -Mr. TRULY. No. This was on the steps, wasn't it? This is where I am -sure he asked me. - -Mr. BELIN. You better cross out the other one, then. - -Mr. TRULY. I saw this thing here, and I thought it was that little -swinging door. - -Mr. BELIN. That would be the main door? - -Now, you have point "T." - -Now, will you trace the route from point "T"? - -Mr. TRULY. We came through this door here. The policeman right behind -me. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. TRULY. This is a counter and this is a counter built in that cut -inside--this is where our customers come that pick up books. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -When you are pointing to the counter on Exhibit 362, you are pointing -to a rectangle that appears to be located immediately to the west of -the glass--looks like a glass partition to your office, is that correct? - -Mr. TRULY. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. You call that the will call counter? - -Mr. TRULY. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. What happened when you got there? - -Mr. TRULY. There is a little swinging door that swings in and out that -we have there. We never keep it locked. But on the bottom is a little -bolt that you can lock it to keep people from pulling it out or pushing -it in. And this bolt had slid out. It has done that on occasions. I -started to run through this little opening, and I ran into the door, -and the bolt hung against the side of the counter, and the policeman -ran into my back. And so I just pulled it back and continued on through. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Now, the door didn't swing through. The bolt stuck. So you were stuck -by the door. The policeman ran into you. And then you had to stop and -pull the door back and go through it. - -Mr. TRULY. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go? You might continue with your pen on -Exhibit 362, showing the route. - -All right. - -Now, you have cut sort of diagonally across towards the rear, and you -have come to the west elevator in the rear. - -Mr. TRULY. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this, Mr. Truly. I note on Exhibit 362 right -where you came in there appears to be some stairs there. Why didn't you -go up those stairs, instead of running to the back? - -Mr. TRULY. Those stairs only reached to the second floor, and they -wouldn't have any way of getting up to the top without going to the -back stairway. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. TRULY. So this is the logical stairway that goes all the way to the -seventh floor. - -Mr. BELIN. And you are pointing to the stairway in what would be the -northwest corner? - -Mr. TRULY. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, you got to the elevator, and what did you do then? - -Mr. TRULY. I looked up. This is two elevators in the same well. This -elevator over here---- - -Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to the west one? - -Mr. TRULY. I am pointing to the west one. This elevator was on the -fifth floor. Also, the east elevator--as far as I can tell--both of -them were on the fifth floor at that time. - -This elevator will come down if the gates are down, and you push a -button. - -Representative FORD. Which elevator is that? - -Mr. TRULY. The west one. But the east one will not come down unless you -get on it and bring it down. You cannot call it if the gates are down. - -Representative FORD. That is the east elevator? - -Mr. TRULY. The east elevator? - -There is a button and a little bell here. I pressed---- - -Mr. BELIN. You might put a "B" on Exhibit 362 by the elevator for -"button." - -Mr. TRULY. That is right on this surface. There is a little button. I -pressed the button and the elevator didn't move. - -I called upstairs "Turn loose the elevator." - -Mr. BELIN. When you say call up, in what kind of a voice did you call? - -Mr. TRULY. Real loud. I suppose in an excited voice. But loud enough -that anyone could have heard me if they had not been over stacking or -making a little noise. But I rang the bell and pushed this button. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you call? - -Mr. TRULY. I said, "Turn loose the elevator." - -Those boys understand that language. - -Mr. BELIN. What does that mean? - -Mr. TRULY. That means if they have the gates up, they go pull the gates -down, and when you press the button, you can pull it down. - -Mr. BELIN. And how many times did you yell that? - -Mr. TRULY. Two times. - -Mr. BELIN. After you had first pushed the button? - -Mr. TRULY. That is right. I had pressed the button twice, I believe, -and called up for the elevator twice. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -First of all, did the elevator come down? - -Mr. TRULY. It did not. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Then what did you do? - -Mr. TRULY. I went up on a run up the stairway. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you again follow--from Point B, could you show which -way you went? - -All right. - -Mr. TRULY. What is this here? - -Mr. BELIN. This is to show this is a stairway, and there is a stairway -above it, too. But you went up the stairs right here? - -Mr. TRULY. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. Okay. And where was this officer at that time? - -Mr. TRULY. This officer was right behind me and coming up the stairway. - -By the time I reached the second floor, the officer was a little -further behind me than he was on the first floor, I assume--I know. - -Mr. BELIN. Was he a few feet behind you then? - -Mr. TRULY. He was a few feet. It is hard for me to tell. I ran right on -around to my left, started to continue on up the stairway to the third -floor, and on up. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, when you say you ran on to your left, did you look -straight ahead to see whether there was anyone in that area, or were -you intent on just going upstairs? - -Mr. TRULY. If there had been anybody in that area, I would have seen -him on the outside. But I was content--I was trying to show the officer -the pathway up, where the elevators--I mean where the stairways -continued. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, I hand you what has been marked Exhibit 497. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 497, for -identification.) - -Mr. BELIN. This is entitled "Texas School Book Depository, Diagram of -Second Floor." - -You can sit down, if you would, please, Mr. Truly. - -And would you, on Exhibit 497, if you would kind of take an arrow to -show the route that you took going out--or up from the first floor, and -starting up the stairs towards the third. - -Now, you marked that with pen. - -Could you put a "T" on that, if you would, please? - -Now, there appears to be some kind of a vestibule or hall of one kind -or another with the No. 22 in a circle on it, on Exhibit 497. Is this -completely clear, or are there books there from time to time? - -Mr. TRULY. No; that is always clear. There is a few cartons of office -stock, invoices, blank invoices and stationery and stuff up and down -here. But there is always a pathway. There is a post, right about where -this 22 is. You can always clear it and come by there. I don't think -there would ever be stock here that would obstruct your view of the -other area across there. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, I hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 498. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 498 for -identification.) - -Mr. BELIN. I ask you to state, if you know what this is. - -Mr. TRULY. Yes. This is the vestibule, when you first come up the -stairs on the second floor--this is what you will find right there. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, as you take a look at the picture Exhibit 498, is this -a post immediately to the left side of the picture, to the extreme left -of the picture? - -Mr. TRULY. No. - -Mr. BELIN. What is this, to the extreme left? Is that the wall for the -staircase? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes; there is an opening on this side, and the staircase is -back over here. This picture is just part of this vestibule out here. - -Mr. BELIN. And what direction does the camera appear to be pointing, or -what is shown there? - -Mr. TRULY. It appears to be pointing east. - -Mr. BELIN. And I see a door with a glass in it. - -Could you show where on this diagram Exhibit 497 this door with the -glass is? - -Do you see a number with an arrow pointing to the door? - -Mr. TRULY. That is it. - -Mr. BELIN. What number is that? - -Mr. TRULY. It is number 23. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Number 23, the arrow points to the door that has -the glass in it. - -Now, as you raced around, how far did you start up the stairs towards -the third floor there? - -Mr. TRULY. I suppose I was up two or three steps before I realized the -officer wasn't following me. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. TRULY. I came back to the second floor landing. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you see? - -Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the -lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. And I see that there appears to be on the second -floor diagram, a room marked lunchroom. - -Mr. TRULY. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? - -Mr. TRULY. I ran over and looked in this door No. 23. - -Mr. BELIN. Through the glass, or was the door open? - -Mr. TRULY. I don't know. I think I opened the door. I feel like I did. -I don't remember. - -Mr. BELIN. It could have been open or it could have been closed, you do -not remember? - -Mr. TRULY. The chances are it was closed. - -Mr. BELIN. You thought you opened it? - -Mr. TRULY. I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in -this way. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you see? - -Mr. TRULY. I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the -lunchroom facing Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. BELIN. And where was Lee Harvey Oswald at the time you saw him? - -Mr. TRULY. He was at the front of the lunchroom, not very far -inside--he was just inside the lunchroom door. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. TRULY. 2 or 3 feet, possibly. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you put an "O" where you saw Lee Harvey Oswald? - -All right. - -You have put an "O" on Exhibit 497. - -What did you see or hear the officer say or do? - -Mr. TRULY. When I reached there, the officer had his gun pointing at -Oswald. The officer turned this way and said, "This man work here?" And -I said, "Yes." - -Mr. BELIN. And then what happened? - -Mr. TRULY. Then we left Lee Harvey Oswald immediately and continued to -run up the stairways until we reached the fifth floor. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Let me ask you this now. How far was the officer's gun from Lee Harvey -Oswald when he asked the question? - -Mr. TRULY. It would be hard for me to say, but it seemed to me like it -was almost touching him. - -Mr. BELIN. What portion of his body? - -Mr. TRULY. Towards the middle portion of his body. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you see Lee Harvey Oswald's hands? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you see---- - -Mr. TRULY. I am sure I could, yes. I could see most of him, because I -was looking in the room on an angle, and they were this way. - -Mr. BELIN. When you say you were looking in the room on an angle---- - -Mr. TRULY. What I mean--this door offsets the lunchroom door. - -Mr. BELIN. By this door, you mean door No. 23 is at an angle to door -No. 24? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes. One this way and the other one is this way. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Could you see whether or not Lee Harvey Oswald had anything in either -hand? - -Mr. TRULY. I noticed nothing in either hand. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see both of his hands? - -Mr. TRULY. I am sure I did. I could be wrong, but I am almost sure I -did. - -Mr. BELIN. About how long did Officer Baker stand there with Lee Harvey -Oswald after you saw them? - -Mr. TRULY. He left him immediately after I told him--after he asked me, -does this man work here. I said, yes. The officer left him immediately. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you hear Lee Harvey Oswald say anything? - -Mr. TRULY. Not a thing. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see any expression on his face? Or weren't you -paying attention? - -Mr. TRULY. He didn't seem to be excited or overly afraid or anything. -He might have been a bit startled, like I might have been if somebody -confronted me. But I cannot recall any change in expression of any kind -on his face. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, I hand you what the reporter has marked as Exhibit 499. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 499 for -identification.) - -Mr. BELIN. I ask you to state if you know what this is. - -Mr. TRULY. That is the interior of the lunchroom. - -Mr. BELIN. And what direction does the camera appear to be pointing on -Exhibit 499? - -Mr. TRULY. East. - -Mr. BELIN. And does this appear to be the doorway in the very -foreground of the picture? - -Mr. TRULY. I believe so. - -Representative FORD. Which doorway would that be? - -Mr. TRULY. Number 24. The camera seems to be right in the doorway when -that picture was taken. You cannot see the doorway very well. - -Mr. DULLES. May I ask you a question? - -Do you know why it was that the officer didn't follow you up the -stairs, but instead was distracted, as it were, and went with Lee -Harvey Oswald into the lunchroom? - -Mr. TRULY. I never knew until a day or two ago that he said he saw a -movement, saw a man going away from him. - -Mr. DULLES. As he was going up the stairs? - -Mr. TRULY. As he got to the second floor landing. While I was going -around, he saw a movement. - -Mr. DULLES. And he followed that? - -Mr. TRULY. That is right. - -Representative FORD. He saw a movement in the lunchroom or a man go -into the lunchroom? - -Mr. TRULY. He saw the back of a man inside the door--I suppose door No. -23. - -But that isn't my statement. I didn't learn about that, you see, until -the other day. - -Mr. BELIN. I believe we have some additional pictures of the lunchroom. -Perhaps we can just briefly identify them. - -Here is a picture which has been marked Commission Exhibit 500. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 500 for -identification.) - -Mr. BELIN. I will ask you to state what this is. - -Mr. TRULY. This is a picture of the lunchroom. - -Mr. BELIN. What direction is the camera facing there? - -Mr. TRULY. East. - -Mr. BELIN. What about Exhibit 501? - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 501 for -identification.) - -Mr. TRULY. This picture is part of the lunchroom. And I would say the -camera must be facing northeast. - -Mr. BELIN. What about Exhibit 502? - -Mr. TRULY. This is the lunchroom looking west. Northwest, I would say. - -Mr. BELIN. Is this door clear to the left of the picture, the door in -which you saw Officer Baker standing when he was talking to Lee Harvey -Oswald? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Truly, you then went up to the third floor with -Officer Baker. - -Mr. TRULY. We continued on until we reached the fifth floor. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, by the way, I have used the name Officer Baker. - -When did you find out what his name was? - -Mr. TRULY. I never did know for sure what his name was until he was -down to the building and you were interviewing him last week. - -Mr. BELIN. This was on Friday, March 20th? - -Mr. TRULY. I had heard his name was Baker or Burton or various other -names. But I never did try to find out what his name was. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 502 for -identification.) - -Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Truly, did you notice when you got to the third -floor--first of all. On the second floor, was there any elevator there? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What about the third floor? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Fourth floor? - -Mr. TRULY. No, I am sure not. - -Mr. BELIN. What about the fifth floor? - -Mr. TRULY. When we reached the fifth floor, the east elevator was on -that floor. - -Mr. BELIN. What about the west elevator? Was that on the fifth floor? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir. I am sure it wasn't, or I could not have seen the -east elevator. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. TRULY. I am almost positive that it wasn't there. - -Mr. DULLES. You said you released the elevator and let it go down? - -Mr. TRULY. No; the east elevator was the one on the fifth floor. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, Exhibit 487 appears to be a diagram of the fifth floor. -As I understand it, you might mark on that diagram the way you went -from the stairs over to the east elevator. - -Mr. TRULY. Well, I started around towards the stairway, and then I -noted that this east elevator was there. So I told the officer, "Come -on, here is an elevator," and then we ran down to the east side, and -got on the east elevator. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you put the letter "T" at the end of that line, please? - -All right. - -Now, where did you go with the east elevator, to what floor? - -Mr. TRULY. We rode the east elevator to the seventh floor. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you stop at the sixth floor at all? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the seventh floor? - -Mr. TRULY. We ran up a little stairway that leads out through a little -penthouse on to the roof. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do on the roof? - -Mr. TRULY. We ran immediately to the west side of the building. There -is a wall around the building that you cannot see over without getting -your foot between the mortar of the stones and, or some such toehold. -We did that and looked over the ground and the railroad tracks below. -There we saw many officers and a lot of spectators, people running up -and down. - -Mr. BELIN. Did the officer say to you why he wanted to go up to the -roof? - -Mr. TRULY. No. At that time, he didn't. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he ever prior to meeting you again on March 20th tell -you why he wanted to go on the roof? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you think the shots came from? - -Mr. TRULY. I thought the shots came from the vicinity of the railroad -or the WPA project, behind the WPA project west of the building. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you have any conversation with the officer that you can -remember? About where you thought the shots came from? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes. When--some time in the course, I believe, after we -reached the roof, the officer looked down over the boxcars and the -railroad tracks and the crowd below. Then he looked around the edge of -the roof for any evidence of anybody being there. And then looked up at -the runways and the big sign on the roof. - -He saw nothing. - -He came over. And some time about then I said, "Officer, I -think"--let's back up. - -I believe the officer told me as we walked down into the seventh floor, -"Be careful, this man will blow your head off." - -And I told the officer that I didn't feel like the shots came from the -building. - -I said, "I think we are wasting our time up here," or words to that -effect, "I don't believe these shots came from the building." - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything to that at all? - -Mr. TRULY. I don't recall exactly what he said. I believe he said, -yes, or somebody said they did, or some such thing as that. I don't -remember. I have heard so many things since, you know. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Now, Mr. Truly, on March 20th, you and I visited about this particular -incident you have related about the running into the building and up -the stairs with this officer, is that correct? - -Mr. TRULY. That is correct. - -Mr. BELIN. And as a matter of fact you and Officer Baker and I tried to -reconstruct the incident in an effort to determine how long it took you -to do all this, is that correct? - -Mr. TRULY. That is correct. - -Mr. BELIN. And do you remember watching me getting over with Officer -Baker in front of the sheriff's office on Market Street--pardon -me--Houston Street, with a stopwatch? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. And then you saw Officer Baker race his motorcycle over and -come in front of the building, and then you ran in with him, is that -correct? - -Mr. TRULY. That is correct. - -Mr. BELIN. And then what is the fact as to whether or not you and -Officer Baker and I recreated the incident as you have testified to -here, going into the lobby with the conversation you had with Officer -Baker, and running into that swinging door, and going back to the -elevator and pushing the elevator button, and then calling or yelling -twice for the elevator to come down, and then coming up the stairs to -the second floor. Do you remember that? - -Mr. TRULY. I remember that. - -Mr. BELIN. When we recreated that incident, did we walk or run? - -Mr. TRULY. We walked. We trotted. - -Mr. BELIN. We trotted. - -Did we get out of breath, do you remember? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did we go at about the speed that you feel you went on that -day with Officer Baker? - -Mr. TRULY. I think so--which was a little more than a trot, I would say. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember offhand what the stopwatch timed us at--I -think we did it twice, is that correct? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir--not from the time that he got on his motorcycle, I -don't remember. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. TRULY. But I was thinking it was somewheres under 2 minutes. -Between a minute and a half and 2 minutes. - -Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, I think, will be able to testify to that in -the morning. - -Representative FORD. But in reconstructing the incident, you went more -or less at a similar pace, took about the same time you did on November -22d? - -Mr. TRULY. As far as I can tell; yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You ran at about the same speed, do you believe? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes; I believe so. - -We tried to--we had a few people we had to push our way through to -start in the building the other time, and possibly didn't run quite so -fast at first. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you say that again? - -Mr. TRULY. I said when the officer and I ran in, we were shouldering -people aside in front of the building, so we possibly were slowed a -little bit more coming in than we were when he and I came in March -20th. I don't believe so. But it wouldn't be enough to matter there. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you say that the reconstruction that we did on March -20th was a minimum or a maximum time? - -Mr. TRULY. Oh, I would say that would be the minimum time. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, when you took the elevator to the fifth--from the -fifth to the seventh floor, that east elevator did you see the west -elevator at all as you passed the sixth floor, when you got to the -seventh floor? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir; because--I could not see the west elevator while -operating the east elevator. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean because you were not looking at it, or you just -couldn't see it? - -Mr. TRULY. Well, the back of the east elevator is solid metal, and if I -passed--yes; I could. I beg your pardon. - -I could see it from the fifth floor. I didn't notice it anywheres up -there. I wasn't really looking for it, however. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, after you got--when did you notice that west elevator -next? If you know. - -Mr. TRULY. I don't know. - -Mr. BELIN. I believe you said when you first saw the elevators, you -thought they were both on the same floor, the fifth floor. - -Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then how do you explain that when you got to the fifth -floor, one of the elevators was not there? - -Mr. TRULY. I don't know, sir. I think one of my boys was getting stock -off the fifth floor on the back side, and probably moved the elevator -at the time--somewheres between the time we were running upstairs. -And I would not have remembered that. I mean I wouldn't have really -heard that, with the commotion we were making running up the enclosed -stairwell. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone on the fifth floor? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes. When coming down I am sure I saw Jack Dougherty getting -some books off the fifth floor. - -Now, this is so dim in my mind that I could be making a mistake. - -But I believe that he was getting some stock, that he had already gone -back to work, and that he was getting some stock off the fifth floor. - -Mr. BELIN. You really don't know who was operating the elevator, then, -is that correct? - -Mr. TRULY. That is correct. - -Mr. BELIN. What is your best guess? - -Mr. TRULY. My best guess is that Jack Dougherty was. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, after you got down from the seventh floor, you then -went down to the sixth floor with Officer Baker? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he look around on the sixth floor at all or not? - -Mr. TRULY. Just before we got on the elevator on the seventh floor, -Officer Baker ran over and looked in a little room on the seventh -floor, and glanced around on that floor, which is open, and it didn't -take much of a search. And then we reached the sixth floor. I stopped. -He glanced over the sixth floor quickly. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you see the southeast corner of the sixth floor from -there? - -Mr. TRULY. I don't think so; no, sir. You could not. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what? - -Mr. TRULY. Then we continued on down, and we saw officers on the fourth -floor. - -I don't recall that we stopped any more until we reached the first -floor. But I do recall there was an officer on the fourth floor, by the -time we got down that far. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -And then you got down eventually to the first floor? - -Mr. TRULY. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. About how long after these shots do you think it took you to -go all the way up and look around the roof and come all the way down -again? - -Mr. TRULY. Oh, we might have been gone between 5 and 10 minutes. It is -hard to say. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got back to the first floor, or -what did you see? - -Mr. TRULY. When I got back to the first floor, at first I didn't see -anything except officers running around, reporters in the place. There -was a regular madhouse. - -Mr. BELIN. Had they sealed off the building yet, do you know? - -Mr. TRULY. I am sure they had. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what? - -Mr. TRULY. Then in a few minutes--it could have been moments or minutes -at a time like that--I noticed some of my boys were over in the west -corner of the shipping department, and there were several officers over -there taking their names and addresses, and so forth. - -There were other officers in other parts of the building taking other -employees, like office people's names. I noticed that Lee Oswald was -not among these boys. - -So I picked up the telephone and called Mr. Aiken down at the other -warehouse who keeps our application blanks. Back up there. - -First I mentioned to Mr. Campbell--I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen -him, he looked around and said no. - -Mr. BELIN. When you asked Bill Shelley if he had seen whom? - -Mr. TRULY. Lee Oswald. I said, "Have you seen him around lately," and -he said no. - -So Mr. Campbell is standing there, and I said, "I have a boy over here -missing. I don't know whether to report it or not." Because I had -another one or two out then. I didn't know whether they were all there -or not. He said, "What do you think"? And I got to thinking. He said, -"Well, we better do it anyway." It was so quick after that. - -So I picked the phone up then and called Mr. Aiken, at the warehouse, -and got the boy's name and general description and telephone number and -address at Irving. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you have any address for him in Dallas, or did you just -have an address in Irving? - -Mr. TRULY. Just the address in Irving. I knew nothing of this Dallas -address. I didn't know he was living away from his family. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, would that be the address and the description as shown -on this application, Exhibit 496? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ask for the name and addresses of any other -employees who might have been missing? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Why didn't you ask for any other employees? - -Mr. TRULY. That is the only one that I could be certain right then was -missing. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after you got that information? - -Mr. TRULY. Chief Lumpkin of the Dallas Police Department was standing -a few feet from me. I told Chief Lumpkin that I had a boy missing over -here--"I don't know whether it amounts to anything or not." And I gave -him his description. And he says, "Just a moment. We will go tell -Captain Fritz." - -Mr. BELIN. All right. And then what happened? - -Mr. TRULY. So Chief Lumpkin had several officers there that he was -talking to, and I assumed that he gave him some instructions of some -nature--I didn't hear it. And then he turned to me and says, "Now we -will go upstairs". - -So we got on one of the elevators, I don't know which, and rode up to -the sixth floor. I didn't know Captain Fritz was on the sixth floor. -And he was over in the northwest corner of the building. - -Mr. BELIN. By the stairs there? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes; by the stairs. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. TRULY. And there were other officers with him. Chief Lumpkin -stepped over and told Captain Fritz that I had something that I wanted -to tell him. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. And then what happened? - -Mr. TRULY. So Captain Fritz left the men he was with and walked over -about 8 or 10 feet and said, "What is it, Mr. Truly," or words to that -effect. - -And I told him about this boy missing and gave him his address and -telephone number and general description. And he says, "Thank you, Mr. -Truly. We will take care of it." - -And I went back downstairs in a few minutes. - -There was a reporter followed me away from that spot, and asked me -who Oswald was. I told the reporter, "You must have ears like a bird, -or something. I don't want to say anything about a boy I don't know -anything about. This is a terrible thing." Or words to that effect. - -I said, "Don't bother me. Don't mention the name. Let's find something -out." - -So I went back downstairs with Chief Lumpkin. - -Mr. BELIN. When you got on the sixth floor, did you happen to go over -to the southeast corner of the sixth floor at about that time or not? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I sure didn't. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you get over to the southeast corner of the sixth -floor? - -Mr. TRULY. That I can't answer. I don't remember when I went over -there. It was sometime before I learned that they had found either -the rifle or the spent shell cases. It could have been at the time I -went up and told them about Lee Harvey Oswald being missing. I cannot -remember. But I didn't know it. I didn't see them find them, and I -didn't know at the time--I don't know how long they had the things. - -Mr. BELIN. There has been some testimony here, Mr. Truly, about some -bins for storing books on the fifth floor near the stairway. I am going -to hand you an exhibit which has been marked as Commission Exhibit 490, -and ask you to state, if you know--were you there when these pictures -were taken on the fifth floor? On Friday, March 20th? - -The CHAIRMAN. The fifth floor? - -Mr. BELIN. The fifth floor; yes, sir. - -Mr. TRULY. Yes; I was, I believe. Some of them I may not have been when -all of them were taken. I was not there when this picture was taken, -no, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You are familiar with those bins on the fifth floor, are you -not? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. How long have those bins by the stairway been there? - -Mr. TRULY. Well, it would be hard for me to say, but they have been -there, I suppose, almost from the time we moved in--nearly 2 years. -They were there at the time of November 22. - -Mr. BELIN. On Commission Exhibit 487, the line marked "W", will you -state whether or not this appears to be the approximate line where the -bins are located? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes, it would be. - -Mr. BELIN. Can you see over those bins? - -Mr. TRULY. You cannot. - -Mr. BELIN. I mean when you are at the window--say you are in the -southwest corner. - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir; you cannot. They obscure the stairway. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Now, there was a floor laying project that was going along on the sixth -floor at about the time of November 22, is that correct? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Handing you Commission Exhibit 483, could you state, if -you know, approximately where on the sixth floor they were laying new -plywood floor around November 22d? - -Mr. TRULY. This is it---- - -Mr. BELIN. This is north right here? - -Mr. TRULY. They were in this area right here. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, there is a blank line that appears to have a "W" at -one end or the other. Would that be a fairly accurate---- - -Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; in the west end of the building. - -Mr. BELIN. Where they were laying the floor? - -Mr. TRULY. That is where they were laying the floor. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, when you were--were you familiar with the fact that -they had moved books in the process of laying that floor? - -Mr. TRULY. I knew they had to. I didn't know where they moved them -particularly until that time. I don't suppose I had been up on that -floor in several days. - -Mr. BELIN. By that time, you mean November 22? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did it appear that they had moved them? - -Mr. TRULY. They moved a long row of books down parallel to the windows -on the south side, following the building, and had quite a lot of -cartons on the north--let's see--the southeast corner of the building. - -Mr. BELIN. Sometime on November 22d did you go to the southeast corner -of the building? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you notice anything particularly about the books that -were in the southeast corner? - -Mr. TRULY. I didn't at that time--with the exception of a few cartons -that were moved. But I did not know any pattern that the boys used in -putting these cartons up there. They were just piled up there more or -less at that time. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, handing you what has been marked as Exhibit 503, which -is a picture, does this appear to portray the southeast corner of the -sixth floor as you saw it on November 22d? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 503 for -identification.) - -Mr. BELIN. Now, I notice some rows of books along the east wall. Did -those books go all the way to the corner or not? - -Mr. TRULY. They did not in front of the window extend very much in -height, but they did go all the way on the floor to the corner of the -building. - -Mr. BELIN. Was this prior to November 22d? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. When you got there on November 22d, did those books still go -to the corner of the east wall of the sixth floor? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir. There were several cartons that had been moved out -of the corner and apparently placed on top of the cartons next to them -in front of the east window. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you have any books that are called Rolling Readers? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know what floor those Rolling Readers are usually -kept on? - -Mr. TRULY. The first floor and the sixth floor. Most of them are on the -sixth floor. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know where on the sixth floor the Rolling Readers are? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Approximately where? - -Mr. TRULY. They were--I would say they were thirty or forty feet from -the corner. They were not in the area that the boys moved books from. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, handing you Exhibit 483, I wonder if you would mark -with your pen the letters "RR" for Rolling Readers. Would there have -been any occasion at all to move any Rolling Readers from the area you -have marked on Exhibit 483 to the southeast corner of the sixth floor? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir; because the boys had not finished much of the -plywood work, and they would--none of that stock was moved at that time -for any purpose. - -Mr. BELIN. Are the Rolling Reader cartons average size or small size or -large size? - -Mr. TRULY. They are much smaller than the average size cartons on that -floor. - -Mr. McCLOY. Do you intend to offer all of these exhibits en bloc later -on? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. - -Now, handing you Commission Exhibit 504, there appear to be some -boxes near a window on a floor of your building. And I note that on -two of the boxes they are marked "Ten Rolling Readers." Are those the -Rolling Reader cartons that you referred to, with the letters "RR" on -Commission Exhibit 483? - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 504 for -identification.) - -Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; that is right. - -Representative FORD. The Rolling Reader boxes were not ordinarily in -that southeast corner? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir. That was not the place for them. They were 40 feet -or so away. - -Representative FORD. May I ask--the job that Oswald had, how did you -designate it? - -Mr. TRULY. Well, he filled orders. - -Representative FORD. He was an order filler? - -Mr. TRULY. Order filler. - -Representative FORD. Do you keep records of the orders that are filled -by each order filler every day? - -Mr. TRULY. Not every day; no, sir. Occasionally we would double check -on the employees, or the checker would count up the number and give -me the number each employee filled in that day, or several days in -succession for a whole week. - -Representative FORD. Would you know what orders Oswald filled November -22d? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I would not. - -Representative FORD. You would have no way of checking that? - -Mr. TRULY. No. They would have been some orders that he filled the 21st -that were not checked and out of the house on the 22d. And I could not -tell how many he filled or when he filled his orders, no, sir. - -Representative FORD. When an order filler fills an order, does he make -his initial or mark on it? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; he does. Up there where it says "L", which is -layout, he puts his number, and then the checker puts his number under -"C" when he checks the order and sees that it is all right, and sends -it on for packing. - -Representative FORD. Well, it would seem to me that every order that -was filled on a particular day by an order filler could be identified -as to the individual. - -Mr. TRULY. You see, we don't always get out our orders the same day -they are shipped. The order fillers fill lots of orders, and they are -filling orders on up to quitting time in the afternoon, and those -wouldn't go out until the next day, or sometime, if they get ahead of -the checker. They don't put the date on them when they fill them. - -Representative FORD. What I am trying to find out--is there any way -to trace by the orders that were filled by Oswald on the morning of -November 22d as to whether or not in the process of filling orders he -was taken to the sixth floor? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir; we could not tell whether he filled any orders -that might be dated November 22d--might have been filled--if they were -dated November 22d and had Oswald's number on it, we would know that -he filled those on November 22d. But if they were billed and dated on -the 20th and 21st, and there was a number of those filled, we could not -tell how many of those he filled on the 22d. - -Representative FORD. Have you ever gone back through your orders for -the 22d? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir. - -Representative FORD. Just to take a survey? - -Mr. TRULY. We have thousands and thousands of accounts, and they run -from A to Z alphabetically in our files. We would have to take--we -would have to go through every invoice in each file, from A to Z, in -order to find any orders he might have filled on that day. And it would -be hard to prove that he filled them on that date because, unless we -found one that had his number on it and was dated November 22d--because -we know he wasn't there after that--but if it was dated November 21st, -he could easily have filled a good number of those orders that morning -of the 22d. But we could not tell whether he filled them the 21st or -the 22d. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, in line with Congressman Ford's questions, was -there ever a clipboard found in your building at all? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. Sometime later there was a clipboard found that -had two or three orders on it. - -Mr. BELIN. What were those orders dated? - -Mr. TRULY. I don't remember, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where the clipboard was found? - -Mr. TRULY. I later learned it was found up on the sixth floor, near the -stairway, behind some cartons. I do not remember just exactly how many -orders were on it, but I think it was only two or three. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember who found it? - -Mr. TRULY. A boy by the name of Frankie Kaiser. - -Mr. BELIN. Is he still one of your employees? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether this was ever identified as having ever -belonged to any particular employee of yours? - -Mr. TRULY. Well, he brought the clipboard to Bill Shelley and told him -about it, and he said, "This is an old clipboard I used to use. This is -the one that Oswald was using." It was a kind of homemade affair. - -Mr. BELIN. When you say he brought it to Bill Shelley, who are you -referring to? - -Mr. TRULY. I am referring to Frankie Kaiser who brought the clipboard -with the orders downstairs and told Bill Shelley that he had found -Oswald's clipboard with some orders on it. - -Mr. BELIN. Had those orders ever been filled or not? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir. You see, when they fill the orders, they take them -off the clipboard. They may have 25 on the clipboard, and after a while -they will have 15 or 10 or something. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not those orders were ever eventually -filled that were found on the clipboard? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; they were filled. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do with the clipboard and the order blanks that -were on there? - -Mr. TRULY. I think someone else filled the order blanks and the -clipboard lay around there for a while until it was mentioned. I don't -recall what happened to it. At the time nobody considered it of too -much significance, I suppose--that the boy was just filling orders up -there and he had just thrown his clipboard over. I believe that someone -from a government agency either got the clipboard or looked at it. I -have this thing all mixed up. It hasn't been very long ago, you know, -about the clipboard. I don't know the solution of it. They were trying -to identify this clipboard just a short while ago for someone--the FBI -or the Secret Service, or it could be you, could it? - -Mr. BELIN. No, sir. - -Mr. TRULY. Just shortly before you. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you this question? - -Are there any ways in which your orders are posted that show anything -along the lines that Congressman Ford suggested as to who might fill an -order or when an order would be posted? In other words, if you come to -an order and you see that the order is dated maybe November 21st, but -you do not know whether it was filled on November 21st or November 22d, -would your posting system of entries on your ledger or journal in any -way show when it was filled? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir. The date that we go by is the date the checker -checks the order, and then he puts the date stamp on it. He puts it -over on the table in a little conveyor belt, and the boys wrap it. -When he separates the packing list and the invoice itself--he puts the -packing list and the label with the order. Then he dates the invoice as -of that date, and it goes upstairs to be matched with the other copies, -and then charged to the customer. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, you mentioned earlier that periodically your checkers -get a check to ascertain how many orders were filled by the various -employees. Do you know of any such check made on the morning of -November 22d? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I do not recall having made a check in several days -before that. We would usually run a check of errors for a week, and -then we would run a check occasionally of orders filled. And checking -on the errors the various boys made--maybe we have an unusual number -for us of teachers writing in saying that they got the wrong book. So -we try to check and see which one of these boys possibly was making -these errors. - -Mr. BELIN. Is it your testimony that you do not recall any check being -made on November 22d, or you are sure there was no check on November -22d? - -Mr. TRULY. There was no check that I recall. And I am sure there wasn't. - -(At this point, the Chairman left the hearing room.) - -Representative FORD. Could you tell us the approximate date that this -individual found the clipboard and brought it to your attention? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir. - -Representative FORD. Was it a few days after the assassination, or -several weeks? - -Mr. TRULY. I think it was just a few days afterward because--now, -we would have to check upstairs. If these orders are not filled and -processed and gone upstairs and matched with the copies in several days -there, then we go looking for the order like the boys missed them. -We have copies in the office, and if they do not come through in a -reasonable time, we think that someone has lost some orders, and we -get to checking them. If we cannot find them, we have to duplicate the -orders. - -Representative FORD. In other words, if 2 weeks had passed without the -order being filled according to your records, you would have instituted -a more thorough search to find out where the unfilled order blank was. - -Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir--less than that, I would say, because we do -not--our customers would probably write to us before then, if they did -not receive it. But the girls on it--usually 3 or 4 days, if those -orders have not cleared, they come to check about them, to see if we -are holding one back because we do not have the stock, or if we have -lost it, the boys have lost it. - -(At this point, the Chairman entered the hearing room.) - -Representative FORD. Who is the man who brought the clipboard to you? - -Mr. TRULY. Bill Shelley called my attention to it. At that time I do -not recall anything being done except maybe one of the boys filling the -orders and just forgetting about that part of it. - -Representative FORD. To your best recollection, who gave the clipboard -to Bill Shelley? - -Mr. TRULY. Frankie Kaiser. - -Representative FORD. Was he an employee of the Texas School Book -Depository? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Do you know generally where Kaiser found the -clipboard? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Can you point it out to us on one of the exhibits? - -Mr. BELIN. The diagram of the sixth floor has been marked as Exhibit -No. 483. Perhaps you can mark on Exhibit No. 483 with the letter "C" -where you think the clipboard was found. - -I might at this point on the record say for the Commission that -Exhibit 506 purports to be the position of the clipboard when it was -discovered--the clipboard is circled, and the number on the picture, -on Exhibit 506, is numbered 36, and on the Exhibit 483 appears at the -end of the arrow with the number 36 on it, which is near where Mr. -Truly put his "C". And the number 35 on that same exhibit--the number -35 will be shown tomorrow to be the position of the rifle when it was -discovered. - -Representative FORD. And 36 is the position of the clipboard? - -Mr. BALL. I don't think you can take that as evidence. - -Mr. BELIN. This is not evidence. This is just background. - -Mr. BALL. This is really an offer of proof on our part. That is the -most you can consider it--because we intend to take the deposition of -Kaiser who found the clipboard. - -Representative FORD. Is there someone here, the staff or Mr. Truly, who -knows approximately when the clipboard was found? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. I can give you that date in about one minute. -According to our records, Frankie Kaiser, when interviewed on December -2d, said that on the morning of December 2d he found a clipboard which -he had made and which he had turned over to Lee Harvey Oswald with -orders. And we have a list of the orders also in one of the Commission -documents. It is Document 7, page 381. - -But we are going to have to actually take the deposition of Mr. Kaiser, -which we will do when we go to Dallas next week or the week after, or -whenever we get to him. - -Representative FORD. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Representative FORD. Back on the record. - -Mr. BELIN. Three more pictures, Mr. Truly. - -I hand you what the reporter has marked as Exhibit 505. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 505 for -identification.) - -I ask you to state if this appears to be the stairway leading from the -second to the third floor, or can't you tell? - -Mr. TRULY. I believe so; yes. - -Mr. BELIN. And that is the stairway that you went up two or three steps -before you came down to get Officer Baker? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, I note with regard to the floor plan on the second -floor that when you want to get to the lunchroom from the elevator, if -you want to get to the lunchroom from the west elevator you have to -walk in the area through that door marked number 23. Is that correct? - -Mr. TRULY. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. If you want to get there from the east elevator, what do you -do? - -Mr. TRULY. Well, there is a side door, a north door, coming into the -lunchroom that they can come through. - -Mr. BELIN. Does that north door appear on Exhibit 501? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. That appears to be located east of the Coca Cola machine, is -that correct? - -Mr. TRULY. That is correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, if someone wanted to take an elevator and get off on -the second floor, and go through the back door to get to the lunchroom, -would there be any way for that elevator to leave the second floor -other than for someone to get back on that east elevator and personally -operate it? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. In other words, the east elevator you have to actually have -an operator on it and it cannot be moved by just pushing a button? - -Mr. TRULY. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. One other question. Just what are Rolling Readers? Is -Rolling a company or what is it? - -Mr. TRULY. Well, if you would look at it you wouldn't know what it -was after you opened the box. But it is a new concept in material for -reading for children in the first grade, kindergarten and so forth. -They are little blocks with words on them that roll out, and then you -turn them over. It is something like--I know way back in my childhood -they would use number blocks and things like that. But it has words and -sentences and things they can put together. - -Mr. DULLES. A square like dice? - -Mr. TRULY. That's right. It looks like dice, only they are bigger. They -have the theory that these can interest a lot of children because of -the noise they put out here, and they pick them up when they hit the -floor and put them together into sentences and things. Something to -stimulate the interest of children who are not quite as advanced in -their reading. - -Mr. BELIN. Are they relatively heavy or light cartons? - -Mr. TRULY. They are very light. - -Mr. BELIN. The cartons themselves. About how much would a carton of 10 -Rolling Readers weigh? - -Mr. TRULY. I don't think they would weigh over between five and ten -pounds. - -Mr. BELIN. And by 10 Rolling Readers you mean there were 10 sets of the -Rolling Readers in each of these cartons shown on Exhibit 504? - -Mr. TRULY. That's right. - -Mr. BELIN. At this time we offer in evidence exhibits 490 through 506 -inclusive. - -Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted. - -(The documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 490 through -506, inclusive, for identification, were received in evidence.) - -Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Truly, I think I heard you say when you were describing -the first contact that you had with Oswald that you said, "That is the -last time I saw him until November 16th." - -Did I hear you say that? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I did not. If I did, it was a mistake. I saw him on -October 16th, the morning he came to work. - -Mr. McCLOY. I put down here that was the last time you had seen him -until November 16th. - -Mr. TRULY. For the record, if I said that, that is wrong. I meant -October 16th. - -The CHAIRMAN. Which was the next morning? - -Mr. TRULY. That was the next morning after he was told to come to work. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you recall, Mr. Truly, whether you hired any personnel -for work in this particular building, in the School Depository, after -the 15th of October and before the 22d of November? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't recall hiring anyone else other than Oswald -for that building the same day that I hired Oswald. I believe, if I am -not mistaken, I hired another boy for a temporary job, and put him in -the other warehouse at 1917 North Houston. - -Mr. DULLES. At a different warehouse? - -Mr. TRULY. At a different warehouse. He was laid off November 15th, I -believe--November 15th, or something like that. - -Mr. DULLES. What I was getting at is whether an accomplice could have -gotten in in that way. That is why I was asking the question. - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't recall. Actually, the end of our fall -rush--if it hadn't existed a week or 2 weeks longer, or if we had not -been using some of our regular boys putting down this plywood, we would -not have had any need for Lee Oswald at that time, which is a tragic -thing for me to think about. - -Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Truly, while Oswald was in your employ, did you have -any inquiries made of you by any of the United States agencies, such as -FBI, regarding him? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir; nothing ever. - -Mr. DULLES. Did Oswald mention to you anything about his trip to Russia -and return from Russia? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir; he did not. He just told me that he just recently -was discharged from the Marines with an honorable discharge. And I -suppose that if he had had some background of a few jobs, skipping here -and there, I might have investigated those jobs thoroughly. - -Mr. DULLES. He did not tell you about those short-time jobs he had? - -Mr. TRULY. No. The thing is I thought he was just discharged from the -service, and we have worked with boys in the past, and they have gone -on and got on their feet and got a better job. And I did not give it a -thought that he was really just not discharged from the Marines. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, you mentioned the fact that you thought Jack -Dougherty was the one operating that west elevator. Is that correct? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you tell us a little bit about Jack Dougherty? - -Mr. TRULY. Jack Dougherty has been working for us 12 or 14 years. -Until we moved into this building, he has been mostly in our State -Department, the building at 1917 North Houston. He would fill orders -for--that called for many cartons of books on a three-textbook-order -basis to the various schools in Texas. And he seemed to be intelligent -and smart and a hard worker. The main thing is he just worked all the -time. - -I have never had any occasion to have any hard words for Jack. A few -times he would get a little bit--maybe do a little something wrong, -and I would mention it to him, and he would just go to pieces--not -anything--but anything the rest of the day or the next day would not -be right. [Deletion.] He is a great big husky fellow. I think he is 39 -years old. He has never been married. He has no interest in women. He -gets flustered, has a small word for it, at times. He has never had any -trouble. He is a good, loyal, hard working employee. He always has been. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you consider him of average intelligence? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. I think what is wrong with him mostly is his -emotional makeup. I would say that for the work he is doing, he is of -average intelligence. - -Mr. BELIN. When you got to the fifth floor, as I understand it, the -west elevator was not there, but when you started up from the first -floor, you thought it was on the fifth floor. - -Mr. TRULY. No. When I came down from the second floor--from the seventh -floor with the officer, I thought I saw Jack Dougherty on the fifth -floor, which he would have had plenty of time to move the elevator down -and up and get some stock and come back. - -Mr. BELIN. But when you got to the fifth floor that west elevator was -not there? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Was it on any floor below the fifth floor? - -Mr. TRULY. I didn't look. - -Mr. BELIN. As you were climbing up the floors, you did not see it? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. And if it wasn't on the fifth floor when you got there, it -could have been on the sixth or seventh, I assume. - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't believe so, because I think I would have -heard or seen it coming downstairs when I got on the fifth floor -elevator, on the east side. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, suppose it was just stopped on the sixth floor when -you got on the fifth floor elevator. Would you have seen it then? - -Mr. TRULY. I think so, yes, sir. As we started up from the fifth floor, -you could see the top of it at an angle. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you looking in that direction as you rode up on the -fifth floor, or were you facing the east? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir. I don't know which way I was looking. I was only -intent on getting to the seventh floor. - -Mr. BELIN. So you cannot say when you passed the sixth floor whether or -not an elevator was there? - -Mr. TRULY. I cannot. - -Mr. BELIN. When you got to the seventh floor, you got out of the east -elevator. Was the west elevator on the seventh floor? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Are you sure it was not on the seventh floor? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you hear the west elevator running at any time when you -were riding the elevator from the fifth to the seventh? - -Mr. TRULY. I was not aware of it. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. I have no further questions. - -The CHAIRMAN. Any other questions? - -Representative FORD. How many employees do you have in the building on -the corner of Houston and Elm? - -Mr. TRULY. I cannot tell you the figures, the total number of the -office and all employees. We had about 15, I think. We had 19-warehouse -and order-filler boys in both warehouses, and there are only four or -five down at the other place. I think we had 15 men working in our -warehouse at Houston and Elm on that day. - -Representative FORD. On November 22d. - -Mr. DULLES. Would all of them normally have had access to the sixth -floor, or might have gone to the sixth floor? - -Mr. TRULY. Possibly any--possibly so. We have one man that checks. He -hardly fills any orders. And we have one or two that write up freight. -But any of the order-fillers there might be a possibility--there might -be a possibility they might need something off the sixth floor. - -Representative FORD. When you noticed the police assembling the -employees after the assassination, what prompted you to think that -Oswald was not among them? - -Mr. TRULY. I have asked myself that many times. I cannot give an -answer. Unless it was the fact that I knew he was on the second floor, -I had seen him 10 or 15 minutes, or whatever it was, before that. That -might have brought that boy's name to my mind--because I was looking -over there and he was the only one I missed at that time that I could -think of. Subconsciously it might have been because I saw him on the -second floor and I knew he was in the building. - -Representative FORD. Had there been any traits that you had noticed -from the time of his employment that might have made you think then -that there was a connection between the shooting and Oswald? - -Mr. TRULY. Not at all. In fact, I was fooled so completely by the sound -of--the direction of the shot, that I did not believe--still did not -believe--maybe I could not force myself to believe, that the shots -came from that building until I learned that they found the gun and -the shells there. So I had no feeling whatever that they did come from -there. I am sure that did not bring Oswald in my mind. But it was just -the fact that they were trying to get people's names. - -Mr. DULLES. When you reported that Oswald was missing, do you recall -whether you told the police that he had been on the second floor? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. DULLES. You did not? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I just said, "I have a man that is missing. I don't -know whether it means anything, but this is the name." - -Representative FORD. Do you know about what time that was that you told -the police? - -Mr. TRULY. I could be wrong, but I think it was around 15--between 15 -minutes or 20 minutes after the shots, or something. I could be as far -off as 5 minutes or so. I don't know. I did not seem to think it was -very long. We might have spent more time up on the roof and coming -down, and then I might have walked out in the shipping department. -Everybody was running up asking questions. Time could fool me. But I -did not think it was but about 15 or 20 minutes later. - -Representative FORD. In your description of Oswald to Captain Fritz, -did you describe the kind of clothes that Oswald had on that day? - -Mr. TRULY. I don't know, sir. No, sir; I just told him his name and -where he lived and his telephone number and his age, as 23, and I said -5 feet, 9, about 150 pounds, light brown hair--whatever I picked up off -the description there. I did not try to depend on my memory to describe -him. I just put down what was on this application blank. That's the -reason I called Mr. Aiken, because I did not want to mislead anybody -as to a description. I might call a man brown-haired, and he might be -blonde. - -Mr. DULLES. When you and the officer saw Oswald in the luncheon room, -did any words pass between you? - -Mr. TRULY. No. The officer said something to the boy. - -Mr. DULLES. I mean between you and Oswald. - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir. Oswald never said a word. Not to me. - -Mr. DULLES. What was he doing? - -Mr. TRULY. He was just standing there. - -Mr. DULLES. Did he have a coke? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. No drink? - -Mr. TRULY. No drink at all. Just standing there. - -Mr. DULLES. Anything about his appearance that was startling or unusual? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir. No, sir; I didn't see him panting like he had been -running or anything. - -Mr. DULLES. Didn't appear to be doing anything special, moving in any -direction? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir. He was standing still facing the doorway to the -lunchroom. The officer was there with a gun pointed at him, around -towards his middle, almost touching. - -Mr. DULLES. How long before the President's actual visit on the 22d of -November did you know of the visit and of the route that he was going -to take. - -Mr. TRULY. Well, I think they said it was announced 72 hours before the -assassination that he would take that route. - -Mr. DULLES. Was there any discussion, as far as you know, among your -employees, of the fact that the procession would go near the School -Depository? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir; not that I know of. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you ever have any reason to suspect any other -member--any other of your boys of being in any way connected with this -affair? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I never have found anything or any actions to make -me feel that they might be connected with it. - -Mr. McCLOY. You never observed Oswald conversing with any strange or -unidentified characters during his employment with you? - -Mr. TRULY. Never. - -Mr. DULLES. Did Oswald have any visitors as far as you know? - -Mr. TRULY. Never knew of a one; no, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did he have the use of a telephone when he was in the -building? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. We have a telephone on the first floor that he was -free to use during his lunch hour for a minute. He was supposed to ask -permission to use the phone. But he could have used the phone. - -Mr. DULLES. Pay telephone or office telephone? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir; it is a regular office telephone. It is a -pushbutton type. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did he strike you as being a frequent user of that -telephone? - -Mr. TRULY. I never remember ever seeing him on the telephone. - -Mr. DULLES. Would you have any record or be able to find out now -whether he had ever used it? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. You did not see him on November 22d with any package or any -bundle? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, when we were there on March 20th, did you take -a walk down from the southeast corner window on the sixth floor with -Officer Baker and a Secret Service Agent Howlett--we walked along from -that window at the southeast corner of the sixth floor, walked along -the east wall to the northeast corner of the building, and then across -there around the elevators, and Secret Service Agent Howlett simulated -putting a rifle at the spot where the rifle was found; and then we -took the stairs down to the second floor lunchroom where Officer Baker -encountered Lee Harvey Oswald? You remember us doing that? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. How fast were we going--running, trotting, walking or what? - -Mr. TRULY. Walking at a brisk walk, and then a little bit faster, I -would say. - -Mr. BELIN. You remember what time that was? How long did it take? - -Mr. TRULY. It seemed to me like it was a minute and 18 seconds, and a -minute and 15 seconds. We tried it twice. I believe that is about as -near as I remember. - -Mr. BELIN. If a person were in that southeast corner window, just -knowing the way the books were laid up there, would that have been the -most practicable route to use to get out of there, to get down the -stairs? - -Mr. TRULY. I believe so. I believe it to be. - -Mr. McCLOY. In your judgment, you think that is the route that Oswald -took? - -Mr. TRULY. I think--he had two possible routes there. One of them, he -could come half way down the east wall and down this way, but he would -have to make one more turn. But if he came all the way down the east -wall to where the rows of books stop, he had a straight run toward the -sixth floor stairs. - -Mr. DULLES. You do not think he used any of the elevators at any time -to get from the sixth to the second floor? - -Mr. TRULY. You mean after the shooting? No, sir; he just could not, -because those elevators, I saw myself, were both on the fifth floor, -they were both even. And I tried to get one of them, and then when we -ran up to the second floor--it would have been impossible for him to -have come down either one of those elevators after the assassination. -He had to use the stairway as his only way of getting down--since we -did see the elevators in those positions. - -Mr. DULLES. He could not have taken it down and then have somebody else -go up to that floor and leave it? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't believe he would have had time for that. - -Representative FORD. He couldn't have taken an elevator down and then -sent it up to a higher floor? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir. Yes; he could. I suppose he could put his hand -through the slotted bars and touched one of the upper floors. - -Mr. BELIN. On both elevators? - -Mr. TRULY. That is just the west one only. - -Representative FORD. That was feasible, even though it might be a -little difficult? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. There was no button on the outside that permitted -him to send an elevator up to a higher floor? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir. It would take him quite a little job to get his -hand all through there and press one. - -Mr. DULLES. Would he have to break any glass to do it? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir. The car gate--and then there was an outside gate -slatted--slats about this far apart. - -Mr. McCLOY. When you entered the building with the officer behind you, -when you were presumably trying to get to the roof, there had been no -cordon at that time thrown around the building? - -Mr. TRULY. No, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. So that Oswald could have slipped out without an officer -having been at the doorway at that point? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; I think so. There were many officers running down -west of the building. It appears many people thought the shots came -from there because of the echo or what. - -Mr. DULLES. Is it your view he went out the front door rather than one -of the back doors? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; it is. From the nature--from the direction he was -walking through the office, and the front stairway, to reach the second -floor--it is my view that he walked down the front stairs and just out -through the crowd there, probably a minute or two before the police had -everything stopped. - -Mr. McCLOY. From what you know of these young men who testified before -you today, are they trustworthy? - -Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; I think they are. They are good men. They have -been with me, most of them, for some time. I have no reason to doubt -their word. I do know that they have been rather, as the expression -goes, shook up about this thing, especially this tall one, Bonnie -Williams. He is pretty superstitious, I would say. For 2 or 3 weeks the -work was not normal, or a month. The boys did not put out their normal -amount of work. Their hearts were not in it. But after that, they have -picked up very well. They are doing their work well. - -Mr. BELIN. If we can go off the record for just a moment. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -The CHAIRMAN. Back on the record. - -Mr. TRULY. I thank you very much. - -The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, sir. You have helped us a good deal. - -We will recess at this time until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. - -(Whereupon, at 6 p.m. the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -_Wednesday, March 25, 1964_ - -TESTIMONY OF MARRION L. BAKER, MRS. ROBERT A. REID, LUKE MOONEY, EUGENE -BOONE, AND M. N. McDONALD - -The President's Commission met at 9:50 a.m. on March 25, 1964, at 200 -Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. - -Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman -Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and -Allen W. Dulles, members. - -Also present were Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel; David W. Belin, -assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Charles Murray, -observer; and Waggoner Carr, attorney general of Texas. - - -TESTIMONY OF MARRION L. BAKER - -The CHAIRMAN. Would you raise your right hand and be sworn please? - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission -will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help -you God? - -Mr. BAKER. I do, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated. I will read a little short brief -statement to you, Mr. Baker, which will indicate the purpose of our -meeting today. - -The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of M. L. Baker, -Mrs. R. A. Reid, Eugene Boone, Luke Mooney, and M. N. McDonald. Officer -Baker and Mrs. Reid were in the vicinity of the Texas School Book -Depository Building at the time of the assassination. - -Deputy Sheriffs Boone and Mooney assisted in the search of the sixth -floor of the Texas School Depository Building shortly after the -assassination and Officer McDonald apprehended Lee Harvey Oswald at the -Texas theater. - -I read this to you just so you will know the general nature of the -inquiry we are making today and we will make of you. - -Mr. Belin will conduct the examination. - -Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, would you state your legal name, please for -the Commission? - -Mr. BAKER. Marrion L. Baker. - -Mr. BELIN. You are known as M. L. Baker? - -Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation? - -Mr. BAKER. With Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. BELIN. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department? - -Mr. BAKER. Almost 10 years. - -Mr. BELIN. How old are you, Officer Baker? - -Mr. BAKER. Thirty-three. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were you born? - -Mr. BAKER. In a little town called Blum, Tex. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school in Blum, Tex.? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I think I went to about the sixth grade. - -Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go? - -Mr. BAKER. We moved to Dallas and I continued schooling at the Roger Q. -Mills School, elementary, went to junior high school, I believe it was -called Storey, and then I finished high school in Adamson High School. - -Mr. BELIN. In Dallas? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you graduated from high school? - -Mr. BAKER. I think I got married. - -The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, at this time I must go to the court, we have -a session of the court today hearing arguments and Mr. Dulles, you -are going to be here through the morning, so if you will conduct the -meeting from this time on. - -Excuse me, gentlemen. - -(At this point, the Chief Justice left the hearing room.) - -Mr. BELIN. After you got married, sir, what did you do. I mean in the -way of vocation? - -Mr. BAKER. I took up a job as a sheetmetal man at the Continental Tin -Co. - -Mr. BELIN. How long did you work for Continental? - -Mr. BAKER. Approximately 3 months. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. BAKER. At that time I quit this job and went to the Ford Motor Co. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do at Ford? - -Mr. BAKER. Well, at that time I stayed there approximately 11 months -and they laid me off and I went to the, I believe they call it Chance -Vought at that time, aircraft. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do at Ford, sir? - -Mr. BAKER. I was a glass installer, I believe that is what you would -call it. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -When you went to this aircraft factory what did you do? - -Mr. BAKER. I was a material clerk. - -Mr. BELIN. How long did you work for them? - -Mr. BAKER. I didn't understand? - -Mr. BELIN. How long did you work for the aircraft company? - -Mr. BAKER. It seemed like somewhere around a year and a half. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, then what did you do? - -Mr. BAKER. At that time it was uncertain out there whether you would -stay there or not, they were laying off a few of the men and I went -with the neighbor's trailer company which was located in Oak Cliff -there. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do there? - -Mr. BAKER. I was, I guess you would call it a mechanic. I did a little -bit of everything there, I did all the road work, and did all the -delivering at that time. - -Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay with them? - -Mr. BAKER. A little over 3 years. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. BAKER. Then I became, I went with the city of Dallas. - -Mr. BELIN. With the police department? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you take a course of instruction for the police -department? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I went to the Dallas Police Academy School out -there. - -Mr. BELIN. How long was this schooling period, approximately? - -Mr. BAKER. Four months. - -Mr. BELIN. After you were graduated from the Dallas Police Academy, -did you right away become a motorcycle policeman or were you first a -patrolman or what did you do? - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir; at first I was a patrolman and I spent some 23 -months in radio patrol division. And then I volunteered solo division. - -Mr. BELIN. When you were in this radio car, was this a patrol car where -two men would be---- - -Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. And have you been a motorcycle policeman then, say, for the -last 7 or 8 years? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that is pretty close to it. - -(At this point, Representative Ford left the hearing room.) - -Mr. BELIN. By the way, you use the word solo; generally do people in -police cars ride in pairs during the daytime or solos or what? - -Mr. BAKER. If you are talking about the squad cars at the time that I -worked in the radio patrol division, most of them were two-men squads. - -Mr. BELIN. Were there some one-man squads, too? - -Mr. BAKER. Very few. - -Mr. BELIN. What about today, do you know what the situation is? - -Mr. BAKER. They still have, say, very few two-men squads and a lot of -one-man squads now. - -Mr. BELIN. They have a lot of one-man squads now? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Is that because of a shortage of men for the jobs to cover? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Not because of the procedures? - -Mr. BAKER. Now, at night they try to ride them two men. - -Mr. BELIN. In the daytime what is the situation now? - -Mr. BAKER. Usually the downtown squads which I work are two men, and -the outlying squads are one man. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Coming down to November 22, 1963, what was your occupation on that day? - -Mr. BAKER. I was assigned to ride a motorcycle. - -Mr. BELIN. And where were you assigned to ride the motorcycle? - -Mr. BAKER. At this particular day in the office up there before we went -out, I was, my partner and I, we received instructions to ride right -beside the President's car. - -Mr. BELIN. About when was this that you received these instructions? - -Mr. BAKER. Let's see, I believe we went to work early that day, -somewhere around 8 o'clock. - -Mr. BELIN. And from whom did you receive your original instructions to -ride by the side of the President's car? - -Mr. BAKER. Our sergeant is the one who gave us the instructions. This -is all made up in the captain's office, I believe. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. DULLES. Captain Curry? - -Mr. BAKER. Chief Curry; our captain is Captain Lawrence. - -Mr. BELIN. Were these instructions ever changed? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. When we got to the airport, our sergeant -instructed me that there wouldn't be anybody riding beside the -President's car. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you why or why not? - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir. We had several occasions where we were assigned -there and we were moved by request. - -Mr. BELIN. On that day, you mean? - -Mr. BAKER. Well, that day and several other occasions when I have -escorted them. - -Mr. BELIN. On that day when did you ride or where were you supposed to -ride after this assignment was changed? - -Mr. BAKER. They just--the sergeant told us just to fall in beyond it, I -believe he called it the press, behind the car. - -Mr. BELIN. Beyond the press? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you this after the President's plane arrived at -the airport or was it before? - -Mr. BAKER. It seemed like it was after he arrived out there. - -Mr. BELIN. Had you already seen him get out of the plane? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. About what time was it before the motorcade left that you -were advised of this, was it just before or 5 or 10 minutes before, or -what? - -Mr. BAKER. It was 5 or 10 minutes before. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Then the motorcade left and you rode along on a motorcycle in the -motorcade? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Was it a two-wheeler or a three-wheeler? - -Mr. BAKER. It was a two-wheeler. - -Mr. BELIN. You rode with the motorcade as it traveled through downtown -Dallas? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. And eventually what is the fact as to whether or not the -motorcade got to Main Street? - -Mr. BAKER. You say how fast? - -Mr. BELIN. No; did the motorcade get to Main Street in Dallas, was it -going down Main Street at anytime? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; it did. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -I wonder if you would pick up your actions with the motorcade as it -went down Main Street commencing at, say, Main and Record Streets. - -Mr. BAKER. Well, it was the usual escort. We were traveling about -somewhere around 5 to 10 miles an hour. - -Mr. DULLES. There is a map right behind you. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. BELIN. Back on the record again. - -Mr. DULLES. Would you state exactly where you were riding? We know a -good deal about this, the cars the way they were paced. There was a -car right behind the President's car that followed it, I think 6 or 7 -feet right behind the President's car. - -Mr. BAKER. That was the Secret Service car. - -Mr. DULLES. That is right. Were you in that gap between the two cars or -what? - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I was, it seemed to me like, there was this car. - -Mr. DULLES. When you say "this car" what do you mean? - -Mr. BAKER. That Secret Service car. - -Mr. DULLES. The Secret Service car right behind the President? - -Mr. BAKER. And there was one more car in there. - -Mr. DULLES. Behind that? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. That was the Vice President's car, wasn't it? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. And then? - -Mr. BAKER. There were four press cars carrying the press and I was -right at the side of that last one. - -Representative BOGGS. The last press car? - -Mr. DULLES. The last press car? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. So you were roughly how far behind the President's car at -this stage? - -Mr. BAKER. Sometimes we got, at this stage we were possibly a half -block. - -Mr. DULLES. A half block? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; as I say as I turned the corner the front of it -was turning the corner at Elm Street. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean as you were turning right from Main on to Houston -Street heading north onto Houston, the President's car had already -turned to the left off Houston heading down that entrance to the -expressway, is that correct? - -Mr. BAKER. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -I believe--pardon me, Mr. Dulles, does that answer your question? - -Mr. DULLES. That answers my question. I wanted to see where he was. - -Mr. BELIN. You said you were going down Main Street at around Record at -from 5 to 10 miles an hour? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Will you take up your trip from there, please? - -Mr. BAKER. As we approached the corner there of Main and Houston we -were making a right turn, and as I came out behind that building there, -which is the county courthouse, the sheriff building, well, there was a -strong wind hit me and I almost lost my balance. - -Mr. BELIN. How fast would you estimate the speed of your motorcycle as -you turned the corner, if you know? - -Mr. BAKER. I would say--it wasn't very fast. I almost lost balance, we -were just creeping along real slowly. - -Mr. DULLES. That is turning from Main into Houston? - -Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You turned--do you have any actual speed estimate as you -turned that corner at all or just you would say very slow? - -Mr. BAKER. I would say from around 5 to 6 or 7 miles an hour, because -you can't hardly travel under that and you know keep your balance. - -Mr. BELIN. From what direction was the wind coming when it hit you? - -Mr. BAKER. Due north. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Now, tell us what happened after you turned on to Houston Street? - -Mr. BAKER. As I got myself straightened up there, I guess it took me -some 20, 30 feet, something like that, and it was about that time that -I heard these shots come out. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Could you just tell us what you heard and what you saw and what you -did? - -Mr. BAKER. As I got, like I say as I got straightened up there, I was, -I don't know when these shots started coming off, I just--it seemed -to me like they were high, and I just happened to look right straight -up---- - -Mr. DULLES. I wonder if you would just tell us on that chart and I will -try to follow with the record where you were at this time, you were -coming down Houston. - -Mr. BELIN. Sir, if you can--I plan to get that actual chart in a -minute. If we could---- - -Mr. DULLES. I want to see where he was vis-a-vis the building on the -chart there. - -Mr. BAKER. This is Main Street and this is Houston. This is the corner -that I am speaking of; I made the right turn here. The motorcade and -all, as I was here turning the front car was turning up here, and as I -got somewhere about right here---- - -Mr. DULLES. That is halfway down the first block. - -Mr. BELIN. No, sir; can I interrupt you for a minute? - -Mr. DULLES. Certainly. - -Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, when we were in Dallas on March 20, Friday, -you walked over with me and showed me about the point you thought your -motorcycle was when you heard the first shot, do you remember doing -that? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. And then we paced this off measuring it from a distance -which could be described as the north curbline of Main Street as -extended? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that would be this one right across here. - -Mr. BELIN. And we paced it off as to where you thought your motorcycle -was when you heard the first shot and do you remember offhand about -where you said this was as to what distance it was, north of the north -curbline of Main Street? - -Mr. BAKER. We approximated it was 60 to 80 feet there, north of the -north curbline of Main on Houston. - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you. - -Mr. BELIN. Does that answer your question? - -Mr. DULLES. That answers my question entirely. - -Mr. BELIN. In any event you heard the first shot, or when you heard -this noise did you believe it was a shot or did you believe it was -something else? - -Mr. BAKER. It hit me all at once that it was a rifle shot because I had -just got back from deer hunting and I had heard them pop over there for -about a week. - -Mr. BELIN. What kind of a weapon did it sound like it was coming from? - -Mr. BAKER. It sounded to me like it was a high-powered rifle. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. When you heard the first shot or the first noise, -what did you do and what did you see? - -Mr. BAKER. Well, to me, it sounded high and I immediately kind of -looked up, and I had a feeling that it came from the building, either -right in front of me or of the one across to the right of it. - -Mr. BELIN. What would the building right in front of you be? - -Mr. BAKER. It would be this Book Depository Building. - -Mr. BELIN. That would be the building located on what corner of Houston -and Elm? - -Mr. BAKER. That would be the northwest corner. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. And you thought it was either from that building -or the building located where? - -Mr. BAKER. On the northeast corner. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Did you see or hear or do anything else after you -heard the first noise? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. As I was looking up, all these pigeons began to -fly up to the top of the buildings here and I saw those come up and -start flying around. - -Mr. BELIN. From what building, if you know, do you think those pigeons -came from? - -Mr. BAKER. I wasn't sure, but I am pretty sure they came from the -building right on the northwest corner. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see or do? - -Mr. BAKER. Well, I immediately revved that motorcycle up and was going -up there to see if I could help anybody or see what was going on -because I couldn't see around this bend. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, between the time you revved up the motorcycle had you -heard any more shots? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I heard--now before I revved up this motorcycle, I -heard the, you know, the two extra shots, the three shots. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you have any time estimate as to the spacing of any of -these shots? - -Mr. BAKER. It seemed to me like they just went bang, bang, bang; they -were pretty well even to me. - -Mr. BELIN. They were pretty well even. - -Anything else between the time of the first shot and the time of the -last shot that you did up to the time or saw---- - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir; except I was looking up and I could tell it was -high and I was looking up there and I saw those pigeons flying around -there. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you notice anything in either of those two buildings -either on the northeast or northwest corner of Houston and Elm? - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you looking at any of those windows? - -Mr. BAKER. I kind of glanced over them, but I couldn't see anything. - -Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear? - -Mr. BAKER. Three. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. After the third shot, then, what did you do? - -Mr. BAKER. Well, I revved that motorcycle up and I went down to the -corner which would be approximately 180 to 200 feet from the point -where we had first stated, you know, that we heard the shots. - -Mr. BELIN. What distance did you state? What we did on Friday -afternoon, we paced off from the point you thought you heard the first -shot to the point at which you parked the motorcycle, and this paced -off to how much? - -Mr. BAKER. From 180 to 200 feet. - -Mr. BELIN. That is where you parked the motorcycle? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -I wonder if we could go on this plat, Officer Baker, and first if you -could put on here with this pen, and I have turned it upside down. - -With Exhibit 361, show us the spot at which you stopped your motorcycle -approximately and put a "B" on it, if you would. - -Mr. BAKER. Somewhere at this position here, which is approximately 10 -feet from this signal light here on the northwest corner of Elm and -Houston. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -You have put a dot on Exhibit 361 with the line going to "B" and the -dot represents that signal light, is that correct? - -Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You, on Friday, March 20, parked your motorcycle where you -thought it was parked on November 22 and then we paced off the distance -from the nearest point of the motorcycle to the stop light and it was -10 feet, is that correct? - -Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Now, I show you Exhibit 478 and ask you if you will, on this exhibit -put an arrow with the letter "B" to this stoplight. - -Mr. BAKER. Talking about this one here? - -Mr. BELIN. The stoplight from which we measured the distance to the -motorcycle. The arrow with the letter "B" points to the stoplight, is -that correct? - -Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. And you stopped your motorcycle 10 feet to the east of that -stoplight, is that correct? - -Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. We then paced off the distance as to approximately how far -it was from the place your motorcycle was parked to the doorway of the -School Book Depository Building, do you remember doing that, on March -20? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. And it appears on Exhibit 477 that that doorway is recessed, -is that correct? - -Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how far that was from the place your -motorcycle was parked to the doorway? - -Mr. BAKER. Approximately 45 feet. - -Mr. BELIN. This same stoplight appears as you look at Exhibit 477 to -the left of the entranceway to the building, is that correct? - -Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. After you parked your motorcycle, did you notice anything -that was going on in the area? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. As I parked here---- - -Mr. BELIN. You are pointing on Exhibit 361 to the place that you have -marked with "B." - -Mr. BAKER. And I was looking westward which would be in this direction. - -Mr. BELIN. By that, you are pointing down the entrance to the freeway -and kind of what I will call the peninsula of the park there? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Toward the triple underpass. - -Representative BOGGS. Where is the underpass? - -Mr. BAKER. The underpass is down here. This is really Elm Street, and -this would be Main and Commerce and they all come together here, and -there is a triple overpass. - -Representative BOGGS. Right. - -Mr. BAKER. At this point, I looked down here as I was parking my -motorcycle and these people on this ground here, on the sidewalk, there -were several of them falling, and they were rolling around down there, -and all these people were rushing back, a lot of them were grabbing -their children, and I noticed one, I didn't know who he was, but there -was a man ran out into the crowd and back. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you notice anything else? - -Mr. BAKER. Except there was a woman standing--well, all these people -were running, and there was a woman screaming, "Oh, they have shot that -man, they have shot that man." - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Now, you are on Exhibit 361, and you are pointing to people along the -area or bordering the entrance to that expressway and that bit of land -lying to the west and north, as to where you describe these people, is -that correct? - -Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Would you mark where the overpass would be, right at the -end of those lines, just so we get oriented on it. - -Mr. BELIN. I am trying to see down here. - -Mr. DULLES. I just wanted to get a general idea. - -Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 361, sir, it wouldn't show but it basically would -be off in this direction coming down this way. The entrance to the -freeway would go down here and the overpass would roughly be down here. - -Mr. DULLES. As far as that? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir; I think Mr. Redlich is going to get a picture that -will better describe it. - -Mr. DULLES. All right. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Is there anything else you saw there, Officer Baker, before you ran to -the building? - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir; not at that time. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Then what did you do after surveying the situation? - -Mr. BAKER. I had it in mind that the shots came from the top of this -building here. - -Mr. BELIN. By this building, you are referring to what? - -Mr. BAKER. The Book Depository Building. - -Mr. BELIN. Go on. - -Representative BOGGS. You were parked right in front of the Building? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; ran right straight to it. - -Representative BOGGS. Right. - -Let me ask you a question. How far away, approximately, were these -people who were running and falling and so forth from the entrance to -the Building? - -Mr. BAKER. Well, now, let me say this. From this position here. - -Mr. BELIN. That is position "B" on Exhibit 361? - -Mr. BAKER. There were people running all over this here. - -Mr. BELIN. And you are pointing to the street and the parkway all in -front of the School Building? - -Mr. BAKER. You see, it looked to me like there were maybe 500 or 600 -people in this area here. - -Representative BOGGS. Yes. - -Mr. BAKER. As those shots rang out, why they started running, you know, -every direction, just trying to get back out of the way. - -Mr. DULLES. For the record, by this area right here, you have that -little peninsula between the Elm Street extension and the Building? - -Mr. BAKER. That is right. This little street runs down in front of the -building down here to the property of the railroad tracks and this is -all a parkway. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. I just wanted to get it for the record. - -Mr. BELIN. You then ran into the Building, is that correct? - -Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you see and what did you do as you ran into the -Building? - -Mr. BAKER. As I entered this building, there was, it seems to me like -there was outside doors and then there is a little lobby. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. BAKER. And then there are some inner doors and another door you -have to go through, a swinging door type. - -As I entered this lobby there were people going in as I entered. And I -asked, I just spoke out and asked where the stairs or elevator was, and -this man, Mr. Truly, spoke up and says, it seems to me like he says, "I -am a building manager. Follow me, officer, and I will show you." So we -immediately went out through the second set of doors, and we ran into -the swinging door. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Now, during the course of running into the swinging door, did you bump -into the back of Mr. Truly? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what happened? - -Mr. BAKER. We finally backed up and got through that little swinging -door there and we kind of all ran, not real fast but, you know, a good -trot, to the back of the Building, I was following him. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Then what did you do? - -Mr. BAKER. We went to the northwest corner, we was kind of on the, I -would say, the southeast corner of the Building there where we entered -it, and we went across it to the northwest corner which is in the rear, -back there. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. BAKER. And he was trying to get that service elevator down there. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. What did you see Mr. Truly do? - -Mr. BAKER. He ran over there and pushed the button to get it down. - -Mr. BELIN. Did the elevator come down after he pushed the button? - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir; it didn't. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did he do? - -Mr. BAKER. He hollered for it, said, "Bring that elevator down here." - -Mr. BELIN. How many times did he holler, to the best of your -recollection? - -Mr. BAKER. It seemed like he did it twice. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Then what did he do? - -Mr. BAKER. I said let's take the stairs. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Then what did you do? - -Mr. BAKER. He said, "Okay" and so he immediately turned around, which -the stairs is just to the, would be to the, well, the west of this -elevator. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. BAKER. And we went up them. - -Mr. BELIN. You went up the stairs then? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. When you started up the stairs what was your intention at -that time? - -Mr. BAKER. My intention was to go all the way to the top where I -thought the shots had come from, to see if I could find something -there, you know, to indicate that. - -Mr. BELIN. And did you go all the way up to the top of the stairs right -away? - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir; we didn't. - -Mr. BELIN. What happened? - -Mr. BAKER. As I came out to the second floor there, Mr. Truly was ahead -of me, and as I come out I was kind of scanning, you know, the rooms, -and I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this--I happened -to see him through this window in this door. I don't know how come I -saw him, but I had a glimpse of him coming down there. - -Mr. DULLES. Where was he coming from, do you know? - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir. All I seen of him was a glimpse of him go away from -me. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? - -Mr. BAKER. I ran on over there---- - -Representative BOGGS. You mean where he was? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. There is a door there with a glass, it seemed to -me like about a 2 by 2, something like that, and then there is another -door which is 6 foot on over there, and there is a hallway over there -and a hallway entering into a lunchroom, and when I got to where I -could see him he was walking away from me about 20 feet away from me in -the lunchroom. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do? - -Mr. BAKER. I hollered at him at that time and said, "Come here." He -turned and walked right straight back to me. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were you at the time you hollered? - -Mr. BAKER. I was standing in the hallway between this door and the -second door, right at the edge of the second door. - -Mr. BELIN. He walked back toward you then? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 497 -which appears to be a diagram of the second floor of the School Book -Depository, and you will notice on this diagram there are circles with -arrows. I want you to state, if you will, what number or the arrow -approximates the point at which you were standing when you told him to -"Come here". Is there a number on there at all or not? - -Mr. BAKER. This 24 would be the position where I was standing. - -Mr. BELIN. The arrow which is represented by No. 24, is that correct? - -Mr. BAKER. That is correct. - -Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 497. When you first saw him in which direction -was he walking? - -Mr. BAKER. He was walking east. - -Mr. BELIN. Was--his back was away from you, or not, as you first saw -him? - -Mr. BAKER. As I first caught that glimpse of him, or as I saw him, -really saw him? - -Mr. BELIN. As you really saw him. - -Mr. BAKER. He was walking away from me with his back toward me. - -Mr. DULLES. Can I suggest if you will do this, put on there where the -officer was and where Lee Oswald was, or the man who turned out to be -Lee Oswald, and which direction he was walking in. I think that is -quite important. - -Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. We are going to get to that with one more -question, if I can, sir. When you saw him, he then turned around, is -that correct, and then walked back toward you? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Was he carrying anything in his hands? - -Mr. BAKER. He had nothing at that time. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Were you carrying anything in either of your -hands? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I was. - -Mr. BELIN. What were you carrying? - -Mr. BAKER. I had my revolver out. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you take your revolver out? - -Mr. BAKER. As I was starting up the stairway. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, turning to Exhibit 497, if you would -approximate on Exhibit 497 with a pen the point at which you saw this -man in the lunch room when you told him to turn around. - -Mr. DULLES. Could we get first where he first saw him. - -Representative BOGGS. You have that already. - -Mr. DULLES. I don't think you have it on the chart where he was. - -Mr. BELIN. This is when he first saw him after he got in the room, sir. -If I can go off the record. - -Mr. DULLES. What I wanted to get is where he first saw him as he was -standing down here, as he was going up the stairs and stopped and then -in what direction he was--he seemed to be moving at that time before he -saw. - -Mr. BELIN. Just answer the question, if you will. Where were you when -you first caught a glimpse of this man? - -Mr. BAKER. I was just coming up these stairs just around this corner -right here. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. You were coming up the stairs at the point on -Exhibit 497 where there are the letters "DN" marking down. - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. And you saw something move through a door which is marked as -what number on Exhibit 497? - -Mr. DULLES. Where was he when you first saw him? - -Mr. BAKER. At this doorway right here, this 23. - -Mr. BELIN. At 23. - -Representative BOGGS. May I ask a couple of questions because I have to -go? - -Mr. BELIN. Surely. - -Representative BOGGS. Were you suspicious of this man? - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I wasn't. - -Representative BOGGS. And he came up to you, did he say anything to you? - -Mr. BAKER. Let me start over. I assumed that I was suspicious of -everybody because I had my pistol out. - -Representative BOGGS. Right. - -Mr. BAKER. And as soon as I saw him, I caught a glimpse of him and I -ran over there and opened that door and hollered at him. - -Representative BOGGS. Right. - -Mr. DULLES. He had not seen you up to that point probably? - -Mr. BAKER. I don't know whether he had or not. - -Representative BOGGS. He came up to you? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; and when I hollered at him he turned around and -walked back to me. - -Representative BOGGS. Right close to you? - -Mr. BAKER. And we were right here at this position 24, right here in -this doorway. - -Representative BOGGS. Right. What did you say to him? - -Mr. BAKER. I didn't get anything out of him. Mr. Truly had come up to -my side here, and I turned to Mr. Truly and I says, "Do you know this -man, does he work here?" And he said yes, and I turned immediately and -went on out up the stairs. - -Mr. BELIN. Then you continued up the stairway? - -Representative BOGGS. Let me ask one other question. You later, when -you recognized this man as Lee Oswald, is that right, saw pictures of -him? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. I had occasion to see him in the homicide office -later that evening after we got through with Parkland Hospital and then -Love Field and we went back to the City Hall and I went up there and -made this affidavit. - -Representative BOGGS. After he had been arrested? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Could you tell us anything more about his appearance, what -he was doing, get an impression of the man at all? Did he seem to be -hurrying, anything of that kind? - -Mr. BAKER. Evidently he was hurrying because at this point here, I was -running, and I ran on over here to this door. - -Mr. BELIN. What door number on that? - -Mr. BAKER. This would be 23. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. BAKER. And at that position there he was already down here some 20 -feet away from me. - -Representative BOGGS. When you saw him, was he out of breath, did he -appear to have been running or what? - -Mr. BAKER. It didn't appear that to me. He appeared normal you know. - -Representative BOGGS. Was he calm and collected? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. He never did say a word or nothing. In fact, he -didn't change his expression one bit. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he flinch in anyway when you put the gun up in his face? - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. There is no testimony that he put the gun up in his face. - -Mr. BAKER. I had my gun talking to him like this. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. How close was your gun to him if it wasn't the face whatever -part of the body it was? - -Mr. BAKER. About as far from me to you. - -Mr. BELIN. That would be about how far? - -Mr. BAKER. Approximately 3 feet. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you notice, did he say anything or was there any -expression after Mr. Truly said he worked here? - -Mr. BAKER. At that time I never did look back toward him. After he -says, "Yes, he works here," I turned immediately and run on up, I -halfway turned then when I was talking to Mr. Truly. - -Representative BOGGS. That question about time I would like to -establish. - -How long would you say it was from the time that you first heard the -shots until that episode occurred? - -Mr. BAKER. We went back and made two trial runs on that, and---- - -Mr. BELIN. Was that on Friday, March 20? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. BAKER. And the first run we made it was a minute and 30 seconds, -and---- - -Mr. DULLES. Will you say from what time to what time, from the last -shot? - -Mr. BAKER. From the last shot. - -Mr. BELIN. The first shot. - -Mr. DULLES. The first shot? - -Mr. BAKER. The first shot. - -We simulated the shots and by the time we got there, we did everything -that I did that day, and this would be the minimum, because I am sure -that I, you know, it took me a little longer. - -Mr. DULLES. I want to get clear in my mind and for the record, it -started at the first shot and when did it terminate, when you saw -Oswald? - -Mr. BAKER. When we saw Oswald. - -Mr. DULLES. When you saw Oswald? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. And that time is how much? - -Mr. BAKER. The first run would be a minute and 30 seconds, and then we -did it over, and we did it in a minute and 15 seconds. - -(At this point, Representative Boggs left the hearing room.) - -Mr. BELIN. Were we walking or running when we did this? - -Mr. BAKER. The first time we did it a little bit slower, and the second -time we hurried it up a little bit. - -Mr. BELIN. Were we running or walking, when we moved, did we run or -walk? - -Mr. BAKER. From the time I got off the motorcycle we walked the first -time and then we kind of run the second time from the motorcycle on -into the building. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. When we got inside the building did we run or -trot or walk? - -Mr. BAKER. Well, we did it at kind of a trot, I would say, it wasn't a -real fast run, an open run. It was more of a trot, kind of. - -Mr. BELIN. You mentioned the relationship between what we did on March -20 and what actually occurred on November 22. Would you estimate that -what we did on March 20 was the maximum or the minimum as for the time -you took? - -Mr. BAKER. I would say it would be the minimum. - -Mr. BELIN. For instance, on March 20 did we do anything about trying to -get through any people on the front steps of the building at all? Did -we slow down at all for that? - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did we slow down at all on March 20 for the time it took you -to look over the scene as to what was happening in the area down Elm -Street and the Parkway? - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Later did we go to the southeast corner of the sixth floor? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; we did. - -Mr. BELIN. With the stopwatch? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did we make any or do any stopwatch tests about any route -from the southeast corner of the sixth floor down to the lunchroom? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; we made two test runs. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Do you remember what the route was? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; we started on the sixth floor on the east side of -the building. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. BAKER. We walked down the east wall. - -Mr. BELIN. We started at that particular corner? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; we started in the southeast corner. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. We walked down the east wall, you say? - -Mr. BAKER. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, then where did we go? - -Mr. BAKER. To the north wall and then we walked down the north wall to -the west side of where the stairs was. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, we walked from the southeast corner to the -northeast corner? - -Mr. BAKER. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. Then along the northeast corner, around the elevators, do -you remember who was with us when we did this? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. There was, it seems to me like his name was -John--anyway, he was a Secret Service man. - -Mr. BELIN. John Howlett. - -Mr. BAKER. John Howlett. That is right, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did Mr. Howlett simulate anyone putting a gun in any -particular place? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; he did. - -Mr. BELIN. And then what did we do when we got to the--where did he do -that, do you remember? - -Mr. BAKER. That would be as we approached the stairway, there were some -cases of books on the left-hand side there. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. And Secret Service Agent Howlett went over to -these books and leaned over as if he were putting a rifle there? - -Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did he do? - -Mr. BAKER. Then we continued on down the stairs. - -Mr. BELIN. To the lunchroom? - -Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how long that took? - -Mr. BAKER. The first run with normal walking took us a minute and 18 -seconds. - -Mr. BELIN. What about the second time? - -Mr. BAKER. And the second time we did it at a fast walk which took us a -minute and 14 seconds. - -Mr. BELIN. You saw the stopwatch on all of these timing occasions when -it was started and when it was stopped, is that correct? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, I want to go back to the sixth floor a minute with Mr. -Dulles' questions. - -Mr. DULLES. Can we go off the record here one moment? - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. BELIN. On the record. - -Officer Baker, when you related your story earlier you said that as you -ran back on the first floor you first ran to the elevator shaft, is -that correct? - -Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. And you stopped at the east or the west elevator door? - -Mr. BAKER. That would be the west. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. This was on the first floor, and did you look up -the elevator shaft at that time? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; at that time I did. - -Mr. BELIN. This was while Mr. Truly was calling for the elevator? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Was there any kind of a gate between you and the elevator -shaft? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; there was. - -Mr. BELIN. Wood or metal, do you remember? - -Mr. BAKER. It is wood. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you see when you looked up the elevator shaft? - -Mr. BAKER. At that time I thought there was just one elevator there, -you know, one big freight elevator, and to me they looked like they -were up there, I didn't know how many floors in that building but you -could see them up there, it looked like just at that time, I thought it -was just one, when I looked up there, and it looked to me anywhere from -three to four floors up. - -Mr. BELIN. Was either elevator moving at the time or--pardon me, was -there any elevator moving at the time you saw and looked up the shaft? - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any elevator moving? - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly pushed the button, I believe you said. - -Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. When he pushed the button did any elevator start moving? - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. When you looked up the elevator shaft did it appear as if -there was one elevator covering the complete shaft or did it appear -there was one elevator that you saw covering half of the shaft? - -Mr. BAKER. Like I say, I thought it was one elevator there and it was -covering the whole deal up there so to me it appeared to be one. - -Mr. BELIN. It didn't appear to be two elevators on different floors? - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you got up to floor number two at the time -and you did that with the stairs. - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. At the time you got up there was there any elevator on floor -number two that you can remember, if you can remember? Maybe you cannot -remember, I don't know. - -Mr. BAKER. Evidently--now, I didn't look, evidently it wasn't because -it seemed to me like the next floor up Mr. Truly said let's take the -elevator. - -Mr. BELIN. At some higher floor after that? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, if we can go off the record for a moment here. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, first of all, handing you what the court -reporter has marked as Exhibit 498, I would like you to state if you -know whether or not this appears to be the door leading from the second -floor hallway into the vestibule going into the lunchroom. - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; it does. - -Mr. BELIN. Is this the door through which you glanced as you came -around the stairs coming up from the first floor? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you see that caused you to turn away from going up -to the third floor? - -Mr. BAKER. As I came out of that stairway running, Mr. Truly had -already gone on around, see, and I don't know, as I come around---- - -Mr. DULLES. Gone on around and up? - -Mr. BAKER. He had already started around the bend to come to the next -elevation going up, I was coming out this one on the second floor, and -I don't know, I was kind of sweeping this area as I come up, I was -looking from right to left and as I got to this door here I caught a -glimpse of this man, just, you know, a sudden glimpse, that is all it -was now, and it looked to me like he was going away from me. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Then what did you do? - -Mr. BAKER. I ran on up here and opened this door and when I got this -door opened I could see him walking on down. - -Mr. DULLES. Had he meanwhile gone on through the door ahead of you? - -Mr. BAKER. I can't say whether he had gone on through that door or not. -All I did was catch a glance at him, and evidently he was--this door -might have been, you know, closing and almost shut at that time. - -Mr. BELIN. You are pointing by "this door" to the door on Exhibit 498? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. You mean you might have seen him as he was opening and -going through the door almost? - -Mr. BAKER. Well, to me it was the back of it. Now, through this window -you can't see too much but I just caught a glimpse of him through this -window going away from me and as I ran to this door and opened it, and -looked on down in the lunchroom he was on down there about 20 feet so -he was moving about as fast as I was. - -Mr. DULLES. How far were you as you left the stairwell, the stairway---- - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. From that door through which you eventually went through -and then saw Oswald? - -Mr. BAKER. I would say that was approximately 15, 20 feet, something -like that. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. On Exhibit 499 is this a picture of the lunchroom? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; it is. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know what direction the camera is pointing to take -this picture? - -Mr. BAKER. It would be pointed eastward. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. I see a coke machine off on the left. When you -saw Oswald after you got to this doorway inside the lunchroom, had he -gone as far as the coke machine? - -Mr. BAKER. I didn't notice the coke machine or any item in the -room there. All I was looking at was the man, and he seemed to be -approximately 20 feet down there from me. - -Mr. BELIN. As you got to the doorway which on Exhibit 497 is marked as -number, what number is that, you are referring to this number 24 here? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, with relation to Exhibit 497 perhaps you can try to -trace your route as you came out from the stairway, as to the route you -took and the point you were when you first caught a glimpse of some -movement through that window or door? - -Mr. BAKER. At the upper portion of this stairway leading to the second -floor, I was just stepping out on to the second floor when I caught -this glimpse of this man through this doorway. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you want to put a spot there, with the letter "B" at the -point you believe you were when you were looking through that door? You -put the letter "B" on Exhibit 497 when you first saw the movement. - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. And then you, from that point, could you kind of trace your -route to the---- - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question before you ask this question, and -this is a bit of a leading question, and think carefully. - -If Oswald had been coming down the stairs and going into the lunchroom -would he have been following the course insofar as you saw a course, -that he--that you saw him follow? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. The reason I say that, this hallway to the -right---- - -Mr. BELIN. By the right you mean the hallway that goes to the--this -is---- - -Mr. BAKER. This is a hallway right here. - -Mr. BELIN. It is a hallway that has the number 27 on it? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; from what I understand these are offices in there. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. - -Mr. BAKER. And he had no business in there and the lunchroom would be -the only place that he would be going, and there is a door out here -that you can get out and to the other part of the building. - -Mr. BELIN. I think Mr. Dulles' question relates to whether or not any -person would have taken a stairway or elevator to have gotten to that -point, is that correct? - -Mr. DULLES. Yes; that is correct. I am clear as you come up the stairs -you take a certain course you would go into the lunchroom. - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. I am not quite clear as to where you would end up on the -second floor as you come down the stairs, is it the same point? - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Dulles, if you will look on Exhibit 497, the stairway -appears to be the same stairway. You see the letter, the arrow, 21, -points to the stairway going up to the third floor which, of course, -would be the same stairway going down from the third floor and on the -building. - -Mr. DULLES. You would cross if you were going up and down, you would -cross right there at the same point? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. And if a man were going up the stairs and then going to the -lunchroom and then coming down the stairs and going to the lunchroom, -he would be approximately following the same course from the time -he got off the stairs and went into that room before you get to the -lunchroom. - -Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, you had just marked on Exhibit 497 point -"B" where you thought you were at about the time you caught a glimpse -of something, either through a door or through the window in the door -marked 23, is that correct? - -Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you trace your route from point "B" to the doorway 23, -if you would, sir. - -Mr. BAKER. I ran right straight across here and through this doorway -and this is approximately where, I would say 23 here, is approximately -where I looked through this lunchroom and saw a man on down here. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. I am going to put an arrow at that point on -Exhibit 497, and this arrow in pen, I am going to put a "B-1" and at -that arrow which is just to the left of the circle with the number 24 -in it you say you then looked through the doorway and saw a man in the -lunchroom, right? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; walking away from me. - -Mr. BELIN. Walking away from you. And then where did you move from -point "B-1"? - -Mr. BAKER. I moved on to this position 24 right here in this doorway. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. I am going to put--you have put an "X" there, -and I am going to put that on Exhibit 497 as an arrow pointing to it, -with "B-2". Is this where you stood when you called to the man to come -back to you? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you move from that time until the man came up to you? - -Mr. BAKER. As I called, I remember moving forward a little bit and -meeting him right here in this doorway. - -Mr. BELIN. As you called you say you remembered moving forward and -meeting him right in the doorway which would be marked with the arrow -with number 24 on it on Exhibit 497, is that right? - -Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. After you got there, did you move until the man came up to -you? - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you notice what clothes the man was wearing as he came -up to you? - -Mr. BAKER. At that particular time I was looking at his face, and it -seemed to me like he had a light brown jacket on and maybe some kind of -white-looking shirt. - -Anyway, as I noticed him walking away from me, it was kind of dim in -there that particular day, and it was hanging out to his side. - -Mr. BELIN. Handing you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 150, -would this appear to be anything that you have ever seen before? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I believe that is the shirt that he had on when he -came--I wouldn't be sure of that. It seemed to me like that other shirt -was a little bit darker than that whenever I saw him in the homicide -office there. - -Mr. BELIN. What about when you saw him in the School Book Depository -Building, does this look familiar as anything he was wearing, if you -know? - -Mr. BAKER. I couldn't say whether that was--it seemed to me it was a -light-colored brown but I couldn't say it was that or not. - -Mr. DULLES. Lighter brown did you say, I am just asking what you said. -I couldn't quite hear. - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; all I can remember it was in my recollection of it -it was a light brown jacket. - -Mr. BELIN. Are you referring to this Exhibit 150 as being similar to -the jacket or similar to the shirt that you saw or, if not, similar to -either one? - -Mr. BAKER. Well, it would be similar in color to it--I assume it was a -jacket, it was hanging out. Now, I was looking at his face and I wasn't -really paying any attention. After Mr. Truly said he knew him, so I -didn't pay any attention to him, so I just turned and went on. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, you did see him later at the police station, is that -correct? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing anything that looked like Exhibit 150 at the -police station? - -Mr. BAKER. He did have a brown-type shirt on that was out. - -Mr. BELIN. Did it appear to be similar to any clothing you had seen -when you saw him at the School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. BAKER. I could have mistaken it for a jacket, but to my -recollection it was a little colored jacket, that is all I can say. - -Mr. DULLES. You saw Oswald later in the lineup or later---- - -Mr. BAKER. I never did have a chance to see him in the lineup. I saw -him when I went to give the affidavit, the statement that I saw him -down there, of the actions of myself and Mr. Truly as we went into the -building and on up what we are discussing now. - -(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker---- - -Mr. DULLES. I didn't get clearly in mind, I am trying to check up, as -to whether you saw Oswald maybe in the same costume later in the day. -Did you see Oswald later in the day of November 22d? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. DULLES. Under what circumstances? Don't go into detail, I just want -to tie up these two situations. - -Mr. BAKER. As I was in the homicide office there writing this, giving -this affidavit, I got hung in one of those little small offices -back there, while the Secret Service took Mr. Oswald in there -and questioned him and I couldn't get out by him while they were -questioning him, and I did get to see him at that time. - -Mr. DULLES. You saw him for a moment at that time? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, you then left the second floor lunchroom with -Mr. Truly, is that correct? - -Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay in the lunchroom after Truly -identified this person as being an employee? - -Mr. BAKER. Just momentarily. As he said, "Yes, he works here," I turned -and went on up the stairs. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Do you have any time estimate as to the period -of time that elapsed between the time that you first got to the head -of the stairs and saw some movement through that first doorway and the -time you left to go back up to the flight of stairs going to the third -floor? - -Mr. BAKER. I would say approximately maybe 30 seconds, something like -that. It was a real quick interview, you know, and then I left. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. As you left, did you notice whether or not the -man in the lunchroom did anything or started moving anywhere? - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir. As I left he was still in the position that he was -whenever I was facing him. - -Mr. BELIN. You then went where? - -Mr. BAKER. I immediately turned and went on, started on, up the -stairways. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. After going up the stairways, do you know what -numbered floor it was--I will ask you this, did you take the stairway -all the way to the top? - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir; we caught that elevator, it seemed like we went up -either one or two floors, and Mr. Truly said "Let's take the elevator, -here it is." - -Mr. BELIN. Did you take an east or west elevator? - -Mr. BAKER. We took the east elevator. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, the nearest elevator to you when you got off a flight -of stairs would have been the east or the west? - -Mr. BAKER. The west. - -Mr. BELIN. When you got off the flight of stairs Mr. Truly said, "Here -is an elevator," did the west elevator appear to be there? - -Mr. BAKER. I didn't notice. I was looking around over the building at -the time he said, "Let's take the elevator" and I just followed him on -around. - -Mr. BELIN. You went to an east elevator? - -Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. How far did it appear you rode up the elevator? - -Mr. BAKER. It was a short ride. We just, either went one or two floors. -I couldn't remember. I was still looking at the floors, you know, as we -went up. - -Mr. BELIN. As you rode up on the elevator, did you notice whether or -not you passed the elevator on the west side? - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't notice. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you notice or hear anything to indicate that the -elevator on the west side might have been moving? - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you take the east elevator as far as it would go? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; we did. - -Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do? - -Mr. BAKER. We had to walk up another flight of stairs to get up to the -top floor. - -Mr. BELIN. To get up to the roof? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. When you got off on the seventh floor or the top floor---- - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you notice whether or not the other elevator was there? - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BELIN. You didn't notice. You got off the east elevator and then -what did you do? - -Mr. BAKER. We walked up the flight of stairs to the top. - -Mr. BELIN. To the top. What did you do when you got to the top? - -Mr. BAKER. We went out on the roof. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do on the roof? - -Mr. BAKER. I immediately went around all the sides of the ledges up -there, and after I got on top I found out that a person couldn't shoot -off that roof because when you stand up you have to put your hands like -this, at the top of that ledge and if you wanted to see over you would -have to tiptoe to see over it. - -Mr. DULLES. If you look right behind you, Officer, you will see a -picture and you might point out what the top wall that is shown on that -photograph of the building is how high? - -Mr. BAKER. Well, it is about 5 feet. I know I had to put my hand on top -of it and tiptoe to see over it. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Mr. Dulles is referring to the picture of the -School Book Depository building on Exhibit 362 and in demonstrating -before the Commission as to where your hands were about how high are -they in relation to your shoulders or mouth or chin or what-have-you? - -Mr. BAKER. Approximately 5 feet. - -Mr. BELIN. Your hands are 5 feet high? Did you go over just to one roof -side or to all sides of the roof? - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir; we came out at this northwest corner back behind -this sign here. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. BAKER. And then I ran, kind of running walk, went all the way -around. First I glanced over this side here, because the last thing I -heard here on the radio was the chief saying, "Get some men up on that -railroad track." - -Mr. BELIN. Did you hear that on your police radio? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that was the last thing I heard. - -Mr. BELIN. As you were getting off your motorcycle? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Senator COOPER. I didn't hear what he said he heard on the radio? - -Mr. BAKER. I heard Chief Curry, the chief of the police over there, -say, "Get some men over on the railroad track." I think everyone at -that time thought these shots came from the railroad track. - -Mr. BELIN. By "everyone" do you include you, too? - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir. I had it--I was in a better position due to the -wind and you know under it, that I knew it was directly ahead, and up, -and it either had to be this building here or this one over here. - -Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to either the first building, you are -pointing to the School Book Depository Building, and the second one -you are pointing to is the one across the street. When you heard -this announcement on your radio was it while you were parking your -motorcycle? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Go ahead, if you would, please. You are on the roof now. - -Mr. BAKER. Well, as I looked over here, all these people, there were -people all over this railroad track. - -Mr. BELIN. You are saying as you are looking over the south and over -the west? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. BAKER. Then after I looked to see what was going on down there, and -then I figured out that he wouldn't have shot from that ledge he would -have shot from this sign or this old room, building back here on the -back side. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you are pointing to Exhibit 362 to the sign -on the top of the School Book Depository Building, the Hertz sign, and -some kind of a structure on the northeast corner of the building, is -that correct? - -Mr. BAKER. That is correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, when you talk, I wonder if you would look at -me, we might be able to hear a little bit better. Would you tell us -what else you did? - -Mr. BAKER. As I finished going all around this building here and then I -came to this sign and I looked up there to see if I could find anybody -hiding up there and I started up these steps, it is a ladder there on -that sign, and I got on, say, 10 feet up there and I came back down, I -seen that nobody would shoot from up there. He wouldn't have no place -to hold on. - -Mr. BELIN. By that you are referring to climbing the ladder to climb up -the sign, is that correct? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; this large Hertz sign here. - -Mr. BELIN. On the top of the School Book Depository Building on Exhibit -362. - -All right. Then what did you do? - -Mr. BAKER. Then I came back down and I went and checked this building -right here. It is an old deserted room there of some type. - -Mr. BELIN. Some kind of a shack on the northeast corner of the building? - -Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Out there. What did you see when you saw that shack? - -Mr. BAKER. As I approached it, and looked under it, there wasn't -anything under it, and you could tell that pigeons had been roosting -there for sometime. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. There were indications that pigeons had been -roosting there? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. BAKER. No indications that anyone would be around there. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see any pigeons there as you approached it? - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir. They had all--at the time I kind of glanced and -they were still flying around in the sky up there. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do? - -Senator COOPER. You referred to pigeons, did you see some pigeon -droppings? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Had they been disturbed in any way? - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. BAKER. At that time I went on back. Mr. Truly was standing over -here on this northwest corner and we descended on the stairs there. - -Mr. BELIN. You went from the stairs to the roof to where, to the top -floor of the building? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the top floor of the -building? - -Mr. BAKER. We walked on down one more flight of stairs and then we -caught the same elevator back down. - -Mr. DULLES. The top floor was the seventh floor, is it not? - -Mr. BAKER. Well, you have one flight of stairs going from the top floor -on up. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. - -Mr. BAKER. And then we caught the elevator back down, the same elevator -that we took up. - -Mr. BELIN. When you referred to one flight of stairs, are you referring -to the flight of stairs from the roof to the top floor that you took or -the flight of stairs from the top floor to the next to the top floor? - -Mr. BAKER. Well, there are two flights of stairs there. The one from -the roof down to the top floor and then there is another one there. - -Mr. BELIN. When you took the elevator back did you take it from the top -floor down or from the next to the top floor down? - -Mr. BAKER. That elevator to me, it didn't go to the top floor, it goes -to the next to the top. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you take it as far as it went? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. When--did you take an elevator down or did you take the -stairs down? - -Mr. BAKER. We took the elevator down. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you take the same elevator down you took up or did you -take a different elevator down? - -Mr. BAKER. We took the same one. - -Mr. BELIN. When you went to take that elevator going back down did you -notice whether or not the other elevator was there? - -Mr. BAKER. I didn't notice. It would be to my back and I was looking -out forward. - -Mr. BELIN. It would be to your back from where you came off the stairs -going to the roof? - -Mr. BAKER. Are you talking about when we got on the elevator? - -Mr. BELIN. When you got on the elevator to make the return trip? - -Mr. BAKER. There wasn't one there whenever we come around out of the -stairway, you know, to get on, you know we had to get on the east side -instead of just stepping over on the west elevator. - -Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, I am going to hand you what the court -reporter, what the Commission reporter, has marked as Exhibit 507 which -purports to be a diagram of the seventh floor of the Texas School Book -Depository Building and on that diagram you will see at the top the -marks of two elevators and then, what looks to be the south, a stairway -marked "Ladder to the roof." - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not this stairway marked -"Ladder to the roof" is the stairway that you took to go to the roof? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; it would be. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Now, when you got off the elevator which you took up to the top floor, -which you said was the east elevator---- - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you have any occasion to notice whether or not the west -elevator was on this top floor? - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't notice it. - -Mr. BELIN. You didn't notice whether it was or whether it was not? - -Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir? - -Mr. BELIN. When you got back down from the roof to this top floor, did -you have any occasion to notice whether or not the west elevator was on -that top floor or not? - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I still didn't look at the elevator. I was -following Mr. Truly and every time I had a chance I would look around -over the building. - -Mr. BELIN. You would look over the floor itself rather than the other -elevator? - -Mr. BAKER. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. You then got on the elevator to go on back down? - -Mr. BAKER. That is correct. - -Mr. BELIN. And I believe you said it was the east elevator, is that -correct? - -Mr. BAKER. That is correct. - -Mr. BELIN. How far did you take the east elevator down? - -Mr. BAKER. As we descended, somewhere around--we were still talking and -I was still looking over the building. - -Mr. BELIN. As the elevator was moving? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; downward. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. BAKER. The next thing that I noticed was Inspector Sawyer, he was -on one of those floors there, he is a police inspector. - -Mr. DULLES. City of Dallas Police? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. And he was on, I really didn't notice which floor -he was on, but that is the first thing I saw as we descended how this -freight elevator, you know, it has got these picket boards in front of -it and it has got it open so far, and it seemed to me like we stopped -for a moment and I spoke to him and I told him that I had been to the -roof, and there wasn't anything on the roof that would indicate anybody -being up there, and then we started on down. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you stay on the elevator while you spoke to him? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what floor it was that you spoke to him on -or how many floors down that you went from the top before you saw him? - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir; not at that time. It seemed to me like it was on -either the third or the fourth floor. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about how long you stayed on the roof? - -Mr. BAKER. It was a little over 5 minutes. - -Mr. BELIN. When you continued moving on the elevator after you talked -to Inspector Sawyer how far did you go on the elevator? - -Mr. BAKER. We went to the, I believe it would be the first floor there. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. You got off the elevator then? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you leave Mr. Truly or did you stay with him? - -Mr. BAKER. I left Mr. Truly there. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. BAKER. I immediately went on out. I was with this motorcade and I -went right on straight through the front door and got on my motorcycle -and tried to find out what happened to the motorcade. - -Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, when you left the building had the building -been sealed off or not? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; there was an officer at the front door. - -Mr. BELIN. The officer at the front door, was he stopping people from -coming in and out or what? - -Mr. BAKER. I assumed that he was but I, you know, just went on out. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -When you got to the first floor on the east elevator did you notice -whether the west elevator was there? - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else that you observed in or about the -Texas School Book Depository Building at that day that you haven't told -us about that you can think of right now? - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I can't think of anything else. - -Mr. BELIN. From the time you went into the building how long did it -take you to go up and make your searches and come on down until the -time you left, to the best of your recollection? - -Mr. BAKER. I would say that I was in there approximately 15 minutes. - -Mr. BELIN. And you left there right at the time that you left Mr. Truly -on the first floor? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. In this time sequence you mentioned you were on the roof -more than 5 minutes, that could be 25 or 30 or 10 or 15 or what? - -Mr. BAKER. This, to my recollection, it seemed like I shouldn't have -stayed up there over 10 minutes anyway, if that long. - -Mr. BELIN. So you would say somewhere between 5 and 10 minutes? - -Mr. BAKER. I just ran around up there looking for something; I didn't -find it and then we came on down. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Dulles, are there any questions that you have? - -Mr. DULLES. I have no more questions. Have you any questions? - -Mr. BELIN. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, I believe you testified that you later saw -Lee Harvey Oswald at the police station of the homicide office, is that -correct? - -Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Was this later on that same day? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, it was. - -Mr. BELIN. Would you state whether or not the man who was shown to you -in the police station as Lee Harvey Oswald was or was not the same man -that you saw and encountered on the second floor lunchroom of the Texas -School Book Depository Building on that day? - -Mr. BAKER. He was the same man. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else about his clothes that you can -remember or his dress that you haven't talked about here? - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I can't. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you recall whether or not he was wearing the same -clothes, did he appear to you the same when you saw him in the police -station as when you saw him in the lunchroom? - -Mr. BAKER. Actually just looking at him, he looked like he didn't have -the same thing on. - -Mr. BELIN. He looked as though he did not have the same thing on? - -Mr. BAKER. He looked like he did not have the same on. - -Senator COOPER. Did you say when you first saw this man walking away -from you in the lunchroom, walking away in the opposite direction, that -you said for him to come toward you. - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Did he turn around? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; he did. - -Mr. DULLES. The officer testified he had a pistol in his hand at that -time, Officer Baker? - -Senator COOPER. He did have a pistol in his hand? - -Mr. BAKER. I had the pistol. - -Mr. DULLES. Officer Baker had a pistol in his hand. - -Senator COOPER. I see. Did he move toward you? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; he did. - -Senator COOPER. Was there anything about his appearance that was -unusual? - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir. Whenever I called to him, well he turned around and -I had my gun in my hand, you know, and he started walking back towards -me and I walked to meet him, and I met him at that doorway over there -and about that time Mr. Truly who had started on up the stairs and then -he came back, he found that I wasn't with him, came back, and walked up -there aside of him and just about the time we met all three of us got -there together and I turned to Mr. Truly and I asked him, and I said, -"Do you know this man? Does he work here?" - -And he said, "Yes," and that is whenever I turned and went on up -the stairs. At that time he didn't say a word, he didn't change the -expression or nothing on him. - -Mr. DULLES. You testified, I believe, that he did not seem to be out of -breath? - -Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir. - -Senator COOPER. He did not show any evidence of any emotion? - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Did you see anyone else while you were in the building, -other than this man you have identified later as Oswald, and Mr. Truly? - -Mr. BAKER. On the first floor there were two men. As we came through -the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the -elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another -one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us. - -Mr. DULLES. Were they white men? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, we have an exhibit here 362 showing the first -floor of the School Book Depository Building, and the top part of the -exhibit is south. It is a little bit upside down from the usual top -being north. - -You will notice here the stairway in the front of the building. - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. And then there is a glass swinging door which I believe is -shown there. - -Could you mark the point at which you believe you were when you called -out for someone to tell you where the stairway or elevator was? - -Mr. BAKER. Is that the steps on the outside and this is the---- - -Mr. BELIN. These are the steps on the outside, this is the door, the -first door and this is kind of the main lobby here, below the words -"Main Entrance." - -Mr. BAKER. Well, as you come up the steps, there is a glass door here -in front of the building. - -Mr. BELIN. Pardon me, this will be the recessed glass door right here -swinging? - -Mr. BAKER. All of this is the lobby. - -Mr. BELIN. Yes, that is all the lobby. - -Mr. BAKER. OK. This is the first door that you open to get in. - -Mr. BELIN. Yes. - -Mr. BAKER. And this is the lobby. - -Mr. BELIN. Yes. - -Mr. BAKER. And then you have another set of glass doors. - -Mr. BELIN. There is another door right here, yes. - -Mr. BAKER. And on through this one you have a swinging door, a little -old counter-type door that swings---- - -Mr. BELIN. This would be the swinging door which would be to the west -of the room marked "Mr. Truly's office" on Exhibit 362? - -Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Where would you have been when you were yelling would -someone tell you about the stairs or the elevator? - -Mr. BAKER. At this point approximately where the "T" is here. - -Mr. BELIN. You would be where the "T" is? - -Mr. BAKER. I was standing inside the front doors and I wasn't too far -from this door here. - -Mr. BELIN. That would be the, what I call the, middle set of doors as -you come in, between the front set of doors and the doors by the side -of Mr. Truly's office, that little half door there. - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. And you were at the point as marked on Exhibit 362 -approximately where the word "T" is. - -Mr. BAKER. This lobby, to the best of my recollection, it seemed to me -like, would--I would say, about 15 feet wide or something like that. - -Mr. BELIN. Yes. - -Mr. BAKER. And I had come in there, oh, say, 4 or 5 feet whenever I -said, "Where is the stairway or the elevator?" - -Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you could show us on Exhibit 362 the route that -you took from the first floor to the time you went to the elevator? - -Mr. BAKER. I came through the first set of doors, the second set and -this second little old counter-type here, and kind of ran through that, -from the southwest corner here through this swinging door. - -Mr. BELIN. That is by Mr. Truly's office? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; to the northwest corner here. - -Mr. BELIN. By the west elevator. - -Mr. BAKER. West elevator, that is right. - -Mr. BELIN. Would this be roughly along the pen line already in there, -would you estimate? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that is pretty close to it. - -Mr. BELIN. You then went to the east elevator where Mr. Truly first -pushed the button for the elevator? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Any further questions? Mr. Attorney General, do you have -any questions? - -Mr. CARR. There is just one. There were many people around there at -that time, and the rest of the day---- - -Mr. DULLES. You are talking now about the Depository Building? - -Mr. CARR. Yes, sir; at the time he has been testifying about. Did you -have occasion during the rest of the day either in passing visits or -idle conversation or anything of that type with any of the people that -were there at the time who might have seen something or told you some -theory they had about what might have happened? - -Mr. BAKER. Not until last Friday morning. Chief Lunday, which is my -chief in traffic, called me and asked me to go down to this Texas -Depository Building, and I had--I have worked traffic outside several -times but I never did go inside or talk to any of the employees. - -Mr. CARR. I am referring to the people who were out there at the time -of the shooting. Did you have a chance during that day to talk with any -of them or did you overhear any conversations that might be material to -the investigation here? - -Mr. BAKER. The only ones that I talked to would be the solo officers -who were around him. - -Mr. DULLES. Around whom? - -Mr. BAKER. Around the President's car at that time. - -Mr. DULLES. What was the nature of those conversations? - -Mr. BAKER. Well, we just were discussing, each one of us had a theory, -you know where, how it happened, and really none of us knew how it -happened, it just happened, and where they was at in place, you know, -in reference to the car, would be about the only thing they could say, -and at the time the first shot they didn't know where the shot came -from. - -The second shot they still didn't know, and then the third shot some -of them over to the left-hand side, the blood and everything hit their -helmets and their windshields and then they knew it had to come from -behind. - -Mr. BELIN. Say this again, Officer Baker. When you say some were on the -left-hand side? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, I believe Officer B. J. Martin---- - -Mr. BELIN. Is he a motorcycle policeman? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; he is. - -Mr. BELIN. On a one- or two-wheeler or three-wheeler? - -Mr. BAKER. He is a solo motorcycle, two-wheeler. - -Mr. BELIN. Where was he riding at this time? - -Mr. BAKER. He was on the left front. - -Mr. BELIN. Of what? - -Mr. BAKER. There were five motorcycle officers in front. There were -four, two on each right side behind. - -Mr. BELIN. When you say in front and behind of what vehicle? - -Mr. BAKER. We are referring to the President's car. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. He was on the front and to the left of the -President's car. - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that is right. - -Mr. BELIN. What did he say to you about blood or something? - -Mr. BAKER. Like I say, we were talking about where the shot came from, -and he said the first shot he couldn't figure it out where it came -from. He turned his head backward, reflex, you know, and then he turned -back and the second shot came off, and then the third shot is when the -blood and everything hit his helmet and his windshield. - -Mr. BELIN. Did it hit the inside or the outside of his windshield, did -he say? - -Mr. BAKER. It hit all this inside. Now, as far as the inside or outside -of the windshield. I don't know about that. But it was all on the -right-hand side of his helmet. - -Mr. BELIN. Of his helmet? - -Mr. BAKER. On his uniform also. - -Mr. BELIN. On his uniform. - -Mr. BAKER. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. And he was riding to the left of the President and you say -ahead of the President? - -Mr. BAKER. On the left-hand side. - -Mr. DULLES. But a little ahead of him? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. They were immediately in front of the car. - -Mr. DULLES. Any other conversations--pardon me, does that answer your -question? - -Mr. CARR. I was more interested, sir, in that, of course, but with the -laymen around there. There was a lot of talk and theorizing at the -time and I was just wondering what he might have heard from any of the -laymen, or just ordinary onlookers of the parade, did you get a chance -to talk to any of them? - -Mr. BAKER. At that time I didn't get a chance to talk to any of those. -At that time I immediately got on my motorcycle and went on down to -the Trade Mart down there where he was set up for the luncheon and at -the time I got on there I didn't stop until here come a sergeant and a -medical examiner and they wanted me to take them code 3 to Parkland, at -the time I got there we stood around the President's car there and kept -the crowd back, and that is where I stayed until, I think we left after -they loaded the body, we went to Love Field and stayed there for, say, -30 minutes or something like that. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to--pardon me, sir, does that take care of your -questions? - -Mr. CARR. Yes, sir; thank you very much. - -Mr. DULLES. Any further questions? - -Mr. CARR. No; thank you, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to any of the other officers who were in or -about the President's vehicle at the time of the shooting? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I talked to several of them and all of them had -kind of had the same story, you know. It had to come from above and -behind. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you talk to these officers, like Officer Martin? - -Mr. BAKER. That was--I didn't talk to him until we got back to the city -hall, which we got off, we were supposed to get off at 3 o'clock that -day, we got off around 4 the same time, they called us all in together. - -Mr. BELIN. What other officers did you talk to and what did they say -that you remember? - -Mr. BAKER. I talked to Jim Chaney, and he made the statement that the -two shots hit Kennedy first and then the other one hit the Governor. - -Mr. BELIN. Where was he? - -Mr. BAKER. He was on the right rear of the car or to the side, and then -at that time the chief of police, he didn't know anything about this, -and he moved up and told him, and then that was during the time that -the Secret Service men were trying to get in the car, and at the time, -after the shooting, from the time the first shot rang out, the car -stopped completely, pulled to the left and stopped. - -Mr. BELIN. The President's car? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. Now, I have heard several of them say that, Mr. -Truly was standing out there, he said it stopped. Several officers said -it stopped completely. - -Mr. DULLES. You saw it stop, did you? - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't see it stop. - -Mr. DULLES. You just heard from others that it had stopped? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that it had completely stopped, and then for a -moment there, and then they rushed on out to Parkland. - -Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, did this Officer Chaney say anything else -about, for instance, where he thought the source of the shots was? - -Mr. BAKER. Not--he knew they came from behind him but he didn't know -where. He said from down there they was kind of going down that hill -and said that shot, the sound of it, you couldn't tell just exactly -where it came from. - -Mr. BELIN. How did he know it came from behind then? - -Mr. BAKER. Because he was riding from behind, and whenever it hit the -President, he said he would see him fall. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, you are giving a motion now, did he see him fall -backwards first or forwards or when you say fall what do you mean by -that? - -Mr. BAKER. Well, he just said, when they hit he kind of fell, so I -assumed he went to the left of him. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Did any other officer say anything to you about what he saw or thought -what happened? - -Mr. BAKER. I talked to several of them but I can't remember exactly, -you know, just what their story was. - -Mr. BELIN. Was there anyone you talked to who thought the shots came -from the front? - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir; not except that the chief of police that is the -only one. - -Now, that, like I say, that is the last thing I heard over that radio -is "Get some men up on that railroad." Now, that could mean they either -came from the side, which is due north, or right across in front of -him. You know---- - -Mr. BELIN. Well, apart from the statement you testified to that the -chief of police made over the radio about the underpass, was there -any policeman or patrolman who was in the motorcade who in any way -indicated to you that the shots came from the front? - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir. - -Senator COOPER. I would like to ask a couple of questions. - -I think you said when you went inside the depository you saw no one -except the man you later identified as Oswald, and Mr. Truly. There -were two people sitting down on the first floor. - -Mr. BAKER. As I entered that depository building, I was--people were -running toward you, I don't know whether they worked there or whether -they were just trying to get out of the way. - -Mr. DULLES. From inside the building? - -Mr. BAKER. No; from the street in. As I ran in I was pushing them aside -and running through them, and some way, Mr. Truly got from my back to -my front. - -Now, he said he was right behind me. I never did see him until I got in -and asked the question of where the stairs was, so evidently whenever -I went in the door why he came on in. There were several people coming -in as I, you know, came in, there were several in front of me and also -around my sides and my back. And it seemed to me like a double door -deal. - -Senator COOPER. As you went up on the elevator could you see out of the -elevator onto floors? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. The best that I could, that is the reason I wasn't -paying too much attention to the elevator I was looking around all -those floors. - -Senator COOPER. Did you see anyone? - -Mr. BELIN. When you say up on the elevator, he didn't get on the -elevator until he had got up on the stairs. - -Senator COOPER. I am aware of that. - -Mr. BAKER. I was still looking. - -Senator COOPER. You went up on the second floor by stairs? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Then you got on the elevator. - -Mr. BELIN. No, sir; he didn't get on the elevator until the fifth floor. - -Senator COOPER. Anyway, as you walked up the stairs could you see into -each floor space as you passed from floor to floor? - -Mr. BAKER. Partly. Now, this building has got pillars in it, you know, -and then it has got books, cases of books stacked all in it. And the -best that I could, you know, I would look through there and see if I -could see anybody. - -Senator COOPER. Did you see anyone? - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir. - -Senator COOPER. When you looked? - -Mr. BAKER. Not from the second floor on up. - -Senator COOPER. As you approached the building by motorcycle, did you -notice whether anyone was looking out of the windows of the Texas -School Book Depository? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. Those windows, I would say a number of them were -open and I tell you, to the best of my recollection, I scanned those -windows, but I can't recall anybody looking out of them, you know. I -looked at all them buildings so much and there were people looking out -of every one of them, every doorway and every window, and I really was -looking high more at the roof of it than I was anything, and I really -didn't see nothing in the windows. - -Senator COOPER. I may be repeating because I missed the first part of -his testimony. - -Mr. DULLES. Go ahead. - -Senator COOPER. But when you heard the shot, you said later you saw -some pigeons fly up. - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. What was the sequence of time between the time you saw -the flight of the pigeons and you heard the shot? - -Mr. BAKER. As I got that motorcycle straightened up, and I hadn't gone -just a very few feet there, it didn't seem like, you know, I went very -far, but it is possible I went, we figured maybe 80, 60 to 80 feet -there, and I looked up, as the shots started, I immediately looked -up, you know. I was already facing ahead and I just kind of raised, I -sighted up, and while I was looking up, those other two shots came off, -and as I come up, I noticed those pigeons start to fly up there, but I -really didn't see which, there were so many of them I couldn't tell -which building they were coming from but I know they were all over. - -Say you were facing north like Houston they were in the sky facing -north in the street. - -Senator COOPER. Which way were the pigeons going? - -Mr. BAKER. They were just coming up, you know. - -Senator COOPER. I assume you are a hunter, aren't you, from what you -said? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I try to be. - -Senator COOPER. Have you seen birds in flight when they are suddenly -startled? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Well, was this the character of the flight of pigeons -you saw? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that is the way it seemed to me, that these birds, -you know, just with a sudden uprush. - -Senator COOPER. Did you have any notice of anyone saying there might -have been a shot from the railroad until you heard the statement over -the radio just before you entered the School Book Depository? - -Mr. BAKER. No, sir; that was the only words that I remember that was -said over the radio from the time the shots rang out until I started -parking that motorcycle, and when I came off of it I heard those words. - -Senator COOPER. Could you see the railroad yards? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I could see it--this track ran under this triple -underpass to my left, all out behind this building. - -Senator COOPER. Did you see anything there which attracted your -attention other than---- - -Mr. BAKER. Nothing except---- - -Senator COOPER. Crowd? - -Mr. BAKER. There were people all over this track, over this triple -underpass, and people just standing all over this sloping bank there, -you know, going up. - -Senator COOPER. Were there any officers that you saw near the School -Book Depository when you went in? - -Mr. BAKER. There was an officer working traffic on that corner, and -Officer J. W. Williams was---- - -Mr. DULLES. By that corner you mean the corner of Elm and Houston? - -Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir. J. W. Williams who is a motorcycle -officer, was, I thought, over on the left-hand side of me, and he was -right with me, but as I ran in this building, I found out that I was by -myself. I didn't know where anybody went. - -Senator COOPER. Did you later see J. W. Williams, Officer Williams? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. He stated that when the motorcade left with the -President, and they immediately went code 3 to Parkland, why he was up -there with him and he went up there with him. And I later saw him out -there at Parkland. - -Mr. DULLES. You testified, I believe, that you did not yourself see -the President's car stop. You just were told it was stopped by several -other officers? - -Mr. BAKER. Let me say, as I parked that motorcycle, I looked down -there, well, the car had swerved to the left, and I saw this man run -out into this crowd and back. I don't know who he was but I saw that -and I saw these people following him, and all these pressmen jumping -out of their cars and running down the street toward him. - -Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, do you know from where this man ran off into -the crowd at all or not? - -Mr. BAKER. Apparently he came from one of the cars right there by -the President's car. He was, he came from the motorcade, inside the -motorcade out to the sidewalk and then back. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -You mentioned the fact that you had gone or come back from deer hunting -just prior to November 22, 1963. - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What kind of a weapon did you have when you went deer -hunting? - -Mr. BAKER. I had one of these .30-06, I believe the Springfield type. - -Mr. BELIN. Is it a rifle? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Automatic or bolt action? - -Mr. BAKER. Bolt action. - -Mr. BELIN. How long have you owned a rifle, any rifle? - -Mr. BAKER. This particular one I have had it approximately 7 years. - -Mr. BELIN. Have you had much experience to go hunting? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. Every year. - -Mr. BELIN. Every year you go deer hunting? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You have had occasion to hear shots from your rifle? - -Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. From other rifles? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did this in any way influence your decisions as to what you -did on November 22 as you heard the first sound? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; it did. - -Mr. BELIN. In what way did it influence them? - -Mr. BAKER. To me it was immediately a rifle shot. A lot of the solo -officers said they thought it was the backfire from a motorcycle -because you can make those motorcycles pop pretty loud. But that -instant it just, I don't know, it just hit me as a rifle shot. - -Senator COOPER. How long have you been firing a rifle? - -Mr. BAKER. Say, from the time I was about 17 years old. - -Senator COOPER. Have you fired other types of rifles other than the one -you used? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; the first one I had was a 30-30 Marlin lever type. - -Senator COOPER. Have you ever seen the rifle that is alleged to have -belonged to Lee Oswald? - -Mr. BAKER. I saw it, a photograph of it, in the newspaper. - -Senator COOPER. Do you know what kind of rifle it is? - -Mr. BAKER. Not offhand. I heard it was some foreign make gun. Most of -the boys down there at the police department have had dealings with -foreign type guns, rifles, you know of this kind, and a lot of them -sell them, and a lot of them rework them, you know, make them into deer -rifles. - -Senator COOPER. What were the characteristics of the report that you -heard, three reports, which made you believe that it was a shot from a -rifle? - -Mr. BAKER. Well, they were too distinct, you know, to be--I have heard -that pop from that motorcycle and I have heard rifle shots, and to me -there was just a difference in them. - -Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, did it appear to you that these sounds that -you heard were from the same rifle or from possibly more than one rifle? - -Mr. BAKER. I would say they was from the same rifle. - -Mr. BELIN. Did it appear that the sounds all came from the same source? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. With regard to the closeness of these sounds together, how -fast they came, did it appear that it came from or that it could have -come from a weapon that had to be operated by bolt action as opposed to -a semiautomatic or an automatic weapon? - -Mr. BAKER. It seemed to me like you could either fire a semi or bolt -action in about the same time. - -Mr. BELIN. Have you had occasion to use a bolt action rifle and fire -shots quickly one after the other? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I have. - -Mr. BELIN. Did it appear that, from what you heard, that from your -experience you could have operated your own bolt action rifle as -quickly as those shots came? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. If you made any judgment, what was the length of time -from the time you heard the first report until you heard the third? - -Mr. BAKER. I would say just about as fast as you could bolt one of -those bolt action rifles which wouldn't be--I don't believe it would be -over 3 seconds apart. - -Mr. DULLES. Over what? - -Mr. BAKER. Three seconds apart. - -Mr. BELIN. From each shot? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Three seconds from the first to the second and another 3 -seconds from the second to the third? - -Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. You are saying not over 3 seconds? - -Mr. BAKER. Not over 3 seconds. - -Mr. DULLES. Any further questions? - -Thank you very much, Officer Baker. Your testimony has been very -helpful. (At this point Senator Cooper left the hearing room.) - - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. ROBERT A. REID - -Mr. DULLES. Mrs. Reid, the Chief Justice had to leave a few moments and -he expressed his regret to you. - -Mrs. REID. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. So I am presiding over the Commission at the present time. - -As you possibly have been informed, the purpose of the testimony this -morning has been to hear the testimony of Officer Baker, yourself, -and certain others who were in the vicinity of the Texas School Book -Depository Building at the time of the assassination of the President, -and we will ask you give testimony in that connection and anything else -you may know. - -Would you please rise, Mrs. Reid, and hold up your right hand. - -Do you swear the testimony you will give before this Commission is the -truth, the whole truth, so help you God, and nothing but the truth? - -Mrs. REID. I do. - -Mr. DULLES. Mr. Belin will carry forward the interrogation. - -Mr. BELIN. We met in Dallas on Friday, March 20. - -Mrs. REID. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Reid, could you state your name for the Commission, -please? - -Mrs. REID. Mrs. Robert A. Reid. - -Mr. BELIN. That is R-e-i-d? - -Mrs. REID. R-e-i-d, that is right. - -Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mrs. Reid? - -Mrs. REID. 1914 Elmwood Boulevard, Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. BELIN. And are you originally from Dallas? - -Mrs. REID. Well, I have been for quite a number of years. I was born -out in a little town out from Dallas, Cereal, Tex. - -Mr. BELIN. How long did you go to school in Dallas? Did you go through -high school? - -Mrs. REID. I completed high school there and I married and went to -Waxahachie and lived there about 15 years and moved back to Dallas then. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you have any family, Mrs. Reid? - -Mrs. REID. You mean like sisters or my children? - -Mr. BELIN. Well, children. - -Mrs. REID. Both, I have six sisters and I have two children and a -grandchild. - -Mr. BELIN. You have a grandchild? - -Mrs. REID. And a husband, and a family. - -Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation, Mrs. Reid? - -Mrs. REID. I am a clerical supervisor. - -Mr. BELIN. For what company? - -Mrs. REID. Texas School Book Depository. - -Mr. BELIN. How long have you worked for the Texas School Book -Depository? - -Mrs. REID. I have been 7 years. - -Mr. BELIN. Have you been a clerical supervisor all the time? - -Mrs. REID. No; I started out in the department on what they call their -postage desk and I was appointed to a clerical supervisor. - -Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Reid, I am taking you to November 22, 1963. - -Mrs. REID. All right. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were you on that day commencing with, say, around noon -or so? - -Mrs. REID. Well, at 12 I went to lunch, and I had my lunch rather -hurriedly so that I might go downstairs and watch the parade. - -Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Reid, you say you ate your lunch? - -Mrs. REID. Yes; I did. - -Mr. BELIN. Where did you eat your lunch? - -Mrs. REID. In our lunchroom, in the lunchroom. - -Mr. BELIN. Where is that? - -Mrs. REID. Well---- - -Mr. BELIN. On what floor? - -Mrs. REID. On two, the same floor as our office. - -Mr. BELIN. That is on the second floor? - -Mrs. REID. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you buy your lunch or bring your lunch? - -Mrs. REID. No; I brought my lunch. - -Mr. BELIN. Was there anyone in the lunchroom when you were eating lunch? - -Mrs. REID. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember who was there? - -Mrs. REID. Well, the girls that work under me, the young ladies, -goodness, it is all hard for me to remember how many there were, but -the general ones that usually eat there with me every day. - -Mr. BELIN. On Commission Exhibit 497, is this room, this lunchroom, the -one that is marked "lunchroom" here with the numbers 25 and 26 in it? - -Mrs. REID. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. And that is where you ate? - -Mrs. REID. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. And on Commission Exhibit 497 do you work on the second -floor also? - -Mrs. REID. I do. - -Mr. BELIN. In the area marked with the room "office space," somewhere -in that room? - -Mrs. REID. Over here. - -Mr. BELIN. You say you work over near the dumbwaiter which is marked? - -Mrs. REID. My desk---- - -Mr. BELIN. Your desk is near the dumbwaiter on Exhibit 497. - -Mr. DULLES. That is the desk there, is it? - -Mr. BELIN. That is the dumbwaiter. - -Mr. DULLES. Oh, yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, Mrs. Reid, you left lunch about what time? - -Mrs. REID. Well, I left, I ate my lunch hurriedly, I wasn't watching -the time but I wanted to be sure of getting out on the streets in time -for the parade before he got there, and I called my husband, who works -at the records building, and they had a radio in their office and -they were listening as the parade progressed and he told me they were -running about 10 minutes late. But I went down rather soon and stood on -the steps. - -Mr. DULLES. Where was your husband working? - -Mrs. REID. He works for the records building. - -Mr. BELIN. Where is that located? - -Mrs. REID. Well, it is off the left-hand side, kind of cater-cornered -across from our building. - -Mr. BELIN. The records building has one side of it on Elm Street -running from Houston to Record Street? - -Mrs. REID. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. And I believe it is on, it would run on, the south side of -Elm? - -Mrs. REID. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that correct? - -Mrs. REID. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Do you know about what time it was that you left -the lunchroom, was it 12, 12:15? - -Mrs. REID. I think around 12:30 somewhere along in there. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. When you left the lunchroom, did you leave with -the other girls? - -Mrs. REID. No; I didn't. The younger girls had gone and I left alone. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you the last person in the lunchroom? - -Mrs. REID. No; I could not say that because I don't remember that part -of it because I was going out of the building by myself, I wasn't even, -you know, connected with anyone at all. - -Mr. BELIN. Were there any men in the lunchroom when you left there? - -Mrs. REID. I can't, I don't, remember that. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mrs. REID. I can't remember the time they left. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, you went out from the lunchroom; turning to Exhibit -497, you went from the lunchroom through the door, which would be the -west door, and then through the doorway marked number 23 on the exhibit -there or did you instead go to the front? - -Mrs. REID. No; I came back through the office. - -Mr. BELIN. You didn't go through the door marked 24? - -Mrs. REID. No; I did not. - -Mr. BELIN. You came out through this first door of the lunchroom? - -Mrs. REID. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. And then you turned which way? - -Mrs. REID. Turned this way. - -Mr. BELIN. You turned to your left and went through the door which is -between numbers 27 and 28? - -Mrs. REID. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 497, and you went back to your office. Did you go -by your desk? - -Mrs. REID. I am sure I did because I usually leave my purse in there -until I get ready to go out and then pick it up. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. You walked toward the number marked 29 on Exhibit -497? - -Mrs. REID. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. Then where did you walk? - -Mrs. REID. I came over here and got my jacket and scarf out of the -closet. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -You are now pointing to the closet on Exhibit 497 which would be -located on the east side of the building? - -Mrs. REID. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. Toward the front. Then what did you do? - -Mrs. REID. I came and went out this door. - -Mr. BELIN. You are, you went out the door which is marked on Exhibit -497 as room 200, is that correct? - -Mrs. REID. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do? - -Mrs. REID. I got on the elevator. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, there is an elevator along the east wall toward the -front of the building, is that correct? - -Mrs. REID. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. Is this a freight or passenger? - -Mrs. REID. It is a passenger. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know how far this elevator goes or how high? - -Mrs. REID. Fourth floor. - -Mr. BELIN. Fourth floor. You got on the elevator on the second floor? - -Mrs. REID. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mrs. REID. Came down on the first floor. - -Mr. BELIN. Then you came on the first floor. - -Mrs. REID. Went out the front door of our building. - -Mr. BELIN. Went out the front door. - -Mrs. REID. I stood on the steps for several minutes. - -Mrs. BELIN. All right. - -Mrs. REID. Shall I continue? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes. - -Mrs. REID. Until I saw the parade coming around the corner from Main -and Houston and when I did I walked out to the street so I would be -nearer to the people, and I walked out and was standing by Mr. Truly -and Mr. Campbell. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. This was in front of the steps, ma'am? - -Mrs. REID. Well, no; I had gone out directly in the front but I had -gotten nearer to the street than the steps. - -Mr. BELIN. You were actually onto the street then as the motorcade came -by? - -Mrs. REID. Yes; that is right. There is a part in there where our -streets, one goes this way and one kind of goes off this way, and the -line of parade they were going that way and I got right on the curb and -was standing there. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, turning to Exhibit 361, the top of Exhibit 361 faces -south and this is Houston Street, here is the School Book Depository -Building that I am pointing to. - -Can you give any estimate as to where you were with relation to this, -well, I will call it a peninsula of land between the parkway and the -building. - -Mrs. REID. You have got me turned around. - -Mr. BELIN. The parade was coming along Houston. - -Mrs. REID. I was standing about along in here, in here. - -Mr. BELIN. You were standing a little bit to the north of the spot -marked "B" on Exhibit 361. - -Mrs. REID. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. And you would be directly in front of the main entrance of -the School Book Depository, is that correct? - -Mrs. REID. That is correct. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, by "B" I am referring to, on Exhibit 361, I am -referring to the pen ink--pen and ink "B" which is directly to the east -of what I will call the traffic light on that peninsula of land as Elm -goes into the parkway there. All right, what did you see? - -Mrs. REID. You mean when I was standing there? - -Mr. BELIN. What did you see and hear and do? - -Mrs. REID. Well, I was naturally watching for the car as the President -came by. I looked at him and I was very anxious to see Mrs. Kennedy, I -looked at her and I was going to see how she was dressed and she was -dressed very attractive and she put up her hand to her hat and was -holding it on, the wind was blowing a little bit and then went on right -on by me and that is the last as far as the parade, I mean as far as -they were concerned. - -I did see Johnson, and that was it. I can't even tell you any more -about the parade because after the shots I didn't know any part about -that. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you see and hear and do after that? - -Mrs. REID. Well, when I heard--I heard three shots. - -Mr. BELIN. You heard three shots? - -Mrs. REID. And I turned to Mr. Campbell and I said, "Oh, my goodness, -I am afraid those came from our building," because it seemed like -they came just so directly over my head, and then I looked up in the -windows, and saw three colored boys up there, I only recognized one -because I didn't know the rest of them so well. - -Mr. BELIN. Which one did you know? - -Mrs. REID. James Jarman. - -Mr. BELIN. You recognized James Jarman? - -Mrs. REID. Yes; because I had had some dealings with him in the -business part and I knew him. I couldn't have told you the other two at -all because I didn't know them. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember that floor you saw them on? - -Mrs. REID. Well, I wasn't exactly looking at the floor, I don't know, -I would say a couple of floors up. I mean several anyway. I don't know -exactly. - -Mr. BELIN. You don't remember which floor it was. - -Mrs. REID. I couldn't tell you because, you know, I didn't count the -floors and I didn't count them, and I made the statement "Oh, I hope -they don't think any of our boys have done this" and I had no thoughts -of anything like that. I turned and went back in the building. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, let me ask you this then. - -Mrs. REID. All right. - -Mr. BELIN. Before you turned and went back into the building did -you--did Mr. Campbell say anything to you? - -Mrs. REID. He said, "Oh, Mrs. Reid, no, it came from the grassy area -down this way," and that was the last I said to him. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. When he said "this way" which direction was he -pointing? - -Mrs. REID. Well, I hope I get my directions. In the direction of the -parade was going, in the bottom of that direction. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, did you look around after the shots and notice what -people were doing? - -Mrs. REID. Well, it was just a mass of confusion. I saw people -beginning to fall, and the thought that went through my mind, my -goodness I must get out of this line of shots, they may fire some more. -And don't ask me why I went into the building because I don't know. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else of people running or doing -anything else? - -Mrs. REID. No; because I ran into the building. I do not recall seeing -anyone in the lobby. I ran up to our office. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. DULLES. Just 1 second there. How long after the third shot did you -run into the building? - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Dulles, we did a reconstruction on that time sequence on -Friday and I am going to come to that as soon as I get the route first. - -Mr. DULLES. Right. - -Mr. BELIN. You went into the building in the main lobby? - -Mrs. REID. Yes; I did. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you take the elevator or the stairs? - -Mrs. REID. No; I went up the stairs. - -Mr. BELIN. Was this the front stairs or the back stairs? - -Mrs. REID. No; the front stairs. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. You went up through the stairs and then what did -you do? - -Mrs. REID. I went into the office. - -Mr. BELIN. You went into your office? - -Mrs. REID. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do? - -Mrs. REID. Well, I kept walking and I looked up and Oswald was coming -in the back door of the office. I met him by the time I passed my desk -several feet and I told him, I said, "Oh, the President has been shot, -but maybe they didn't hit him." - -He mumbled something to me, I kept walking, he did, too. I didn't pay -any attention to what he said because I had no thoughts of anything -of him having any connection with it at all because he was very calm. -He had gotten a coke and was holding it in his hands and I guess the -reason it impressed me seeing him in there I thought it was a little -strange that one of the warehouse boys would be up in the office at the -time, not that he had done anything wrong. The only time I had seen him -in the office was to come and get change and he already had his coke -in his hand so he didn't come for change and I dismissed him. I didn't -think anything else. - -Mr. BELIN. When you saw him, I believe you said you first saw him when -he was coming through the door? - -Mrs. REID. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Turning to Exhibit 497, what doorway was it where you first -saw him? - -Mrs. REID. Right here. - -Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to the doorway between numbers 27 and 28? - -Mrs. REID. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 497? - -Mrs. REID. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you saw him in that doorway? - -Mrs. REID. I was coming right through here. - -Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to what number there? - -Mrs. REID. Well, it is 29. - -Mr. BELIN. 29. And then about where were you when you actually passed -him or had this exchange? - -Mrs. REID. Right along here. I passed my desk. - -Mr. BELIN. Why don't you put on Exhibit 496 an "X" as to where you were -when you thought you passed him. - -Mrs. REID. Here. - -Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you would put the initial "R" which we will put -for Mrs. Reid. - -Mrs. REID. All right. - -Mr. BELIN. By the "X" and that is where you were when you passed him. - -On March 20 you and I met for the first time, didn't we, Mrs. Reid? - -Mrs. REID. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. We sat down and I asked you to tell me what happened and you -related the story. Did I keep on questioning you or did you tell me -what happened? - -Mrs. REID. Well, I more or less told you what had happened. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Then we went out on the street, did we not, in -front of the building, with a stopwatch, do you remember that? - -Mrs. REID. Yes; I surely do. It was kind of cool. - -Mr. BELIN. It was kind of cool wasn't it, and a little bit windy. - -Mrs. REID. Yes; it was; yes. - -Mr. BELIN. And when in Dallas, we started the stopwatch from the time -that the last shot was fired, is that correct? - -Mrs. REID. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. And then you went through your actions, what you saw, your -conversations that you had, and your actions in going back into the -building and up to the point that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mrs. REID. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how long by the stopwatch it took you? - -Mrs. REID. Approximately 2 minutes. - -Mr. DULLES. I didn't hear you. - -Mrs. REID. Two minutes. - -Mr. BELIN. From the time of the last shot the time you and Oswald -crossed? - -Mrs. REID. Yes; I believe that is the way we timed it. - -Mr. BELIN. When you--you saw me start the stopwatch and you saw me stop -it there, right? - -Mrs. REID. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. When you met in the lunchroom---- - -Mrs. REID. I didn't meet him in the lunchroom. - -Mr. BELIN. Pardon me, when you met in the office, which direction -were you going, looking toward Exhibit 497, as you look on it, which -direction were you going toward the left or right? - -Mrs. REID. You mean as I came in the office? I turned in and turned to -my left. - -Mr. BELIN. That would be heading in a westerly direction is that right? - -Mrs. REID. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What direction was Oswald walking? - -Mrs. REID. He was going east. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see him actually walk through or coming through the -door there? - -Mrs. REID. He had just gotten to the door, was stepping in as I glanced -up. - -Mr. BELIN. He was stepping in as you glanced up? - -Mrs. REID. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Had you ever--you said, I will put it this way, had you ever -seen Oswald in that second floor office space before apart from the -time of getting his pay? - -Mrs. REID. Well, one other time he came in, now he might have been in -to get that change for this time but I didn't see him going up there, -and he made a remark to one of the girls back there and she said, -"Well, he sure is calm." And I said, "What did he say to you?" - -And she says, "I have a baby," and he stopped and I said, "Well, he -is pretty calm just having a new baby," and outside of that I never -remember seeing him other than to come in to get change. - -Mr. BELIN. What about the other men in the warehouse, did they have -occasion to come into that office space? - -Mrs. REID. Occasionally they come up to get change. - -Mr. BELIN. Apart from getting change or getting paid? - -Mrs. REID. No; very seldom unless they are sent up there to get -something. I mean they just don't come in there and wander around. It -is some business for them. - -Now, I did see him in the lunchroom a few times prior to this eating -his lunch but I didn't even know his name. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you know his name on the day you saw him? - -Mrs. REID. No; I did not. When I saw his picture I still didn't know -his name until they told us who it was. - -Mr. BELIN. How did you know the person you saw was Lee Harvey Oswald on -the second floor? - -Mrs. REID. Because it looked just like him. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean the picture with the name Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mrs. REID. Oh, yes. - -Mr. BELIN. But you had seen him in the building? - -Mrs. REID. Other than that day, sure. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him? - -Mrs. REID. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind -of wash trousers. What color I couldn't tell you. - -Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission -Exhibit, first 157 and then 158, and I will ask you if either or both -look like they might have been the trousers that you saw him wear or -can you tell? - -Mrs. REID. I just couldn't be positive about that. I would rather not -say, because I just cannot. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over -his T-shirt? - -Mrs. REID. He did not. He did not have any jacket on. - -Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen anyone working at the book depository -wearing any kind of a shirt or jacket similar to Commission Exhibit 150 -or do you know? - -Mrs. REID. No; I do not. I have never, so far as I know ever seen that -shirt. I have been asked about that shirt before, I have seen it once -before but not since all this happened. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Mrs. Reid, if a person were in the lunchroom -with a coke on the second floor, and then wanted to get to the front -stairway or front elevator, would there be only one route to get there -or would there be more than one? - -Mrs. REID. Yes; he could either go around this hallway, or back here in -this hallway or he could have gotten through our office or---- - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -I wonder if in the first hallway you could mark route 1 there so we -have it on 496. - -Mrs. REID. Does it matter? - -Mr. BELIN. That is fine. - -Mrs. REID. You said the front stairway, too? - -Mr. BELIN. That is the front stairway. You have put a number 1, I am -going to put "R-1". - -Mrs. REID. All right. - -Mr. BELIN. And that will be one hallway to go down to get from the -lunchroom to the front stairway? - -Mrs. REID. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, would there be another way to get there? - -Mrs. REID. He can come through the office. - -Mr. BELIN. You could come through the office? - -Mrs. REID. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Which is the way Lee Harvey Oswald was walking? - -Mrs. REID. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. Would any one way be faster than the other or not? - -Mrs. REID. It couldn't be very much faster because it is practically -the same distance here that it is here and you have got this hallway -there. - -Mr. BELIN. So, either "R-1" or going through the office marked 29 would -be approximately the same? - -Mrs. REID. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, where you saw Lee Harvey Oswald is there kind of a -pathway through there without any obstructions for desks? - -Mrs. REID. Yes; there is, sort of a passageway. - -Mr. BELIN. You passed at point what you have marked with an "X"? - -Mrs. REID. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that correct? - -Mrs. REID. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. With an "R" and "X" to it? - -Mrs. REID. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did Lee Harvey Oswald walk past you? - -Mrs. REID. Yes; he did. - -Mr. BELIN. Kept on walking in the same direction? - -Mrs. REID. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. How far did you see him go? - -Mrs. REID. I didn't turn around to look. He went on straight, he did -not go on past the back door because I was facing that way. What he did -after that---- - -Mr. BELIN. But you know he did not go out the same back door he came in? - -Mrs. REID. No; he did not. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not he went into the conference room? - -Mrs. REID. Well, I wouldn't think he did because this door off here was -locked and I had unlocked it for the policeman myself. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, let's put an arrow here to the door that you say -was locked, and we will put--do you want to put in the word "locked" in -there, if you would, please? - -Mrs. REID. All right. - -Mr. DULLES. On which side was it locked or did you take the key away, -was it locked so that you---- - -Mrs. REID. I would go in from this way. I wasn't going in from our -office into the conference room. - -Mr. DULLES. And you locked that door? - -Mrs. REID. We did. They had asked me, I went in there with the -policeman into the conference room. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you take the key? - -Mrs. REID. Yes, sir; I did, I got it for Mr. Williams. - -Mr. DULLES. No; I mean after you locked the door do you leave the key -in the lock? - -Mrs. REID. No. - -Mr. BELIN. What I want to know is this, Mrs. Reid. When you came -back up into the building after the shooting and you walked into the -conference room, at that time was the door which you have marked -"locked," was it locked at that time when you came in? - -Mrs. REID. Yes, sir; it was to--it was locked when I got to it, I will -say that. - -Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Had you been the one who had locked it -before or don't you know? - -Mrs. REID. Oh, no, I couldn't say that because too many people used the -conference room. - -I would have no way of knowing who locked it or if it is left unlocked. -The porter locks it in the evening. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -If one is locking that door with a key do you lock the door from the -inside of the conference room? - -Mrs. REID. Either way. - -Mr. BELIN. Or the outside, either way? - -Mrs. REID. Either way. - -Mr. BELIN. Who has custody of the key? - -Mrs. REID. I got that from Mr. Williams' desk, because that is where -I got it from, and then the porter has one. I could not say. They all -have the keys. - -Mr. BELIN. When did you get it to unlock the door? - -Mrs. REID. Well, by the time the policeman got there and started -searching our floor. I can't recall whether I had taken him into the -lounge first because they had me to go in there with him, the ladies' -lounge, or whether they went in there because there is a little stand -in here that Mr. Cason uses when we have a conference, and he jerked it -back because it would have been humanly possible for a person to have -gotten in there, but it was up against the wall and there was no one -there. - -Mr. BELIN. Would this have been more or less than 5 minutes after you -got back in the building that you opened the lounge? - -Mrs. REID. That is where you all get me in this time because I was not -watching the clock that day. - -Mr. BELIN. That is all right. - -Mrs. REID. Time really didn't mean anything to us because they, the -police officers, just came in on us and began to ask so many questions. - -Mr. BELIN. When you were at point "RX" and moving, if someone would -have walked into the conference room would you have heard him in any -way? - -Mrs. REID. I could have heard him open the door. - -Mr. BELIN. You could hear them open the door. During the time, the -period of time you were there and saw Lee Harvey Oswald, did you hear -anyone open the door to the conference room? - -Mrs. REID. I do not recall any. - -Mr. BELIN. From your best judgment, if Lee Harvey Oswald didn't go -into the conference room and didn't go back to the door marked around -between 27 and 28, how would he have gotten out of the office? - -Mrs. REID. Right straight out this door down this stairway and out the -front door. - -Mr. BELIN. You are saying right down the hallway in the direction in -which the arrow number 29 is pointing? - -Mrs. REID. That is right. - -Mr. BELIN. Down through the hall and down through the front stairway. - -Have you ever talked to anyone there who ever saw Lee Harvey Oswald -leave the building? - -Mrs. REID. No; I haven't. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know of your own personal knowledge how he got out of -the building? - -Mrs. REID. No; I do not, I do not. I have no idea. - -Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Reid, did you notice whether or not the man you ran -into on the second floor whom you now identify as Lee Harvey Oswald was -carrying anything in either arm other than a coke? - -Mrs. REID. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Was the coke full or empty? - -Mrs. REID. It was full. - -Mr. BELIN. It was full. - -Was there anything else you noticed about him? - -Mrs. REID. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything about the expression on his face? - -Mrs. REID. No; just calm. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything about whether or not his clothes were clean or -dirty? - -Mrs. REID. Well, they were clean. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything about whether or not his hair was combed or mussed? - -Mrs. REID. No; I did not. There wasn't anything unusual. - -Mr. BELIN. You say he mumbled something? - -Mrs. REID. He did. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you even remember one word that he mumbled? - -Mrs. REID. I did not because he kept moving and I did, too, and I was -just not interested in what he was saying, it was just the excitement -of time and I didn't even say, "What did you say?" because I wasn't -interested. - -Mr. DULLES. Was he moving fast? - -Mrs. REID. No; because he was moving at a very slow pace, I never did -see him moving fast at any time. - -Mr. BELIN. He was moving just at his normal walk? - -Mrs. REID. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he was wearing any pieces of jewelry -like a watch or bracelet or ring or something? - -Mrs. REID. No; I do not remember that. - -Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Reid, did you ever have any personal contact with Lee -Harvey Oswald about such things as his paycheck or anything like that? - -Mrs. REID. No; I did not. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what hand he was carrying his coke in? - -Mrs. REID. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. In what hand? - -Mrs. REID. In his right hand. - -Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Reid, we thank you very much. - -Mr. DULLES. Just one moment. - -Mr. BELIN. Pardon me, do you have a question, sir? - -Mr. DULLES. How many times do you think you saw Mr. Oswald during the -period he was employed? - -Mrs. REID. My goodness. - -Mr. DULLES. Roughly. - -Mrs. REID. It couldn't have been---- - -Mr. DULLES. Five times, 10 times? - -Mrs. REID. I would say five times. At times I would go down to Mr. -Truly's office for some business. I would see him across the floor, but -he paid no attention to you and there were times, the few times, he ate -lunch up there but he never talked to anyone. - -Mr. DULLES. Never talked to anyone? - -Mrs. REID. And he was usually reading, I noticed that. - -Mr. DULLES. Did he seem to repel ordinary conversational attempts or -didn't you try that? - -Mrs. REID. I never did try it, I never did. - -Mr. DULLES. You never tried it. - -Mrs. REID. He seemed to be interested in what he was doing, I would -never see anyone talking to him at all in the lunchroom so far as I can -recall, not any time. - -Mr. DULLES. Who in the organization so far as you know would have -handled his paychecks? - -Mrs. REID. Mr. Campbell. - -Mr. DULLES. Campbell would have handled his paychecks. - -Mrs. REID. He makes them out and then he sends them to Mr. Truly and I -am sure he distributes it to his employees. - -Mr. BELIN. Two questions, Mrs. Reid. - -Mrs. REID. All right. - -Mr. BELIN. When we reconstructed your actions on Friday, March 20, -which you said it took about 2 minutes, would you say that this was a -maximum or minimum time? - -Mrs. REID. Well, it wasn't any less than that I am sure because 2 -minutes time---- - -Mr. BELIN. Did we kind of run? - -Mrs. REID. Yes, we did, three times. - -Mr. BELIN. Three times. - -Mrs. REID. I remember that. - -Mr. BELIN. And we were both huffing and puffing? - -Mrs. REID. Yes, we were. I know I was that day, I think. - -Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Reid, since the tragedy of November 22, have there been -any discussions that you have heard among any employees which might -relate to the character insofar as the personal habits or what-have-you -of Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mrs. REID. The only thing I have heard anybody say was he never talked -to anybody, he always went about his business, that is the only thing I -heard the employees say. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever hear anyone say that he might have been -friendly with at least one other employee? - -Mrs. REID. No; I have not. - -Mr. DULLES. Did the employees discuss him at all among themselves? - -Mrs. REID. You mean prior to this? - -Mr. DULLES. Prior, during the period he was employed there? - -Mrs. REID. No. - -Mr. DULLES. At the Book Depository? - -Mrs. REID. I never heard it. - -Mr. DULLES. They did not discuss him in your presence, the office -employees? - -Mrs. REID. Well, the office employees and the warehouse employees are -not connected. We talk to them, naturally some of them have been there -a long time. - -Mr. DULLES. Was it your usual practice to take lunch in the lunchroom -on the second floor? - -Mrs. REID. Yes, it is; every day. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you recall whether it was Lee Harvey Oswald's usual -practice or how many times possibly you saw him there at lunch with you -and the others? - -Mrs. REID. You mean did he come up every day? No, he did not. - -Mr. DULLES. Would you think he came up half the days or could you give -any--half the working days? - -Mrs. REID. No; I wouldn't say he came that often. I can't recall seeing -him up there but three times. We have said since then, since he sat -there and didn't say anything and was reading we have often wondered -what we discussed before him because we all have a general conversation -every day at noon but I don't know we would have said anything that -interested him. - -But you wondered was he listening to what we were saying, I don't know -whether he heard anything but he may have heard what we were saying. - -Mr. DULLES. You, of course, knew that Lee Harvey Oswald was an employee -of the School Book Depository? - -Mrs. REID. You mean by name before this happened? - -Mr. DULLES. That the individual that you later knew was Oswald was one -of the employees of the school book? - -Mrs. REID. Yes, because I had seen him working in the building. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. Attorney General Carr, do you have any questions? - -Mr. CARR. Mrs. Reid, have you had occasion to visit with any of -Oswald's relatives, his wife or mother? - -Mrs. REID. No. - -Mr. CARR. Have they been in there since that date to look over the -premises? - -Mrs. REID. His mother has been but I didn't see her. She didn't go any -further than the first floor I understand, but I have never seen her -other than these pictures. - -Mr. DULLES. Is it usual for the employees of the depository to have -friends visit them during office hours or would that be an unusual -practice? - -Mrs. REID. No; that would not be unusual. Family or somebody wanted to -drop by to see you they never have objected to that. - -Mr. BELIN. I think the record should show we are offering in evidence -this morning, Mr. Dulles, Commission Exhibit 507 which is the diagram -of the seventh floor which Officer Baker testified to. - -Mr. DULLES. You want that admitted now? - -Mr. BELIN. We want that admitted now. - -Mr. DULLES. No objection. It will be admitted. - -(The diagram referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 507 for -identification and received in evidence.) - -Mr. BELIN. I think those are all the questions we have of Mrs. Reid. - -We want to thank you very much for your cooperation in coming up here, -Mrs. Reid. - -Mrs. REID. Thank you. - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much, Mrs. Reid. - -I will tell the Chief Justice of your cooperation and helpfulness. - -We will reconvene at 2:30. - -(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -Afternoon Session - -TESTIMONY OF LUKE MOONEY - - -The President's Commission reconvened at 2:15 p.m. - -Senator COOPER. The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony -of Officer Baker, whose testimony has been heard; Mrs. Reid, Eugene -Boone, Luke Mooney, and M. N. McDonald. Officer Baker and Mrs. Reid -were in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building -at the time of the assassination. Deputy Sheriffs Boone and Mooney -assisted in the search of the sixth floor of the Texas School Book -Depository Building shortly after the assassination, and Officer -McDonald apprehended Lee Harvey Oswald at the Texas Theatre. - -Officer Mooney, will you raise your right hand? - -You do solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. MOONEY. I do, sir. - -Senator COOPER. You are informed now of the nature and purpose of this -inquiry. - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Do you appear here voluntarily? - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Do you have counsel with you? - -Mr. MOONEY. No, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Do you desire counsel? - -Mr. MOONEY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Mr. Mooney, what is your occupation? - -Mr. MOONEY. I am a deputy sheriff, Dallas County, Tex. - -Mr. BALL. How long have you been in that job? - -Mr. MOONEY. I have been on the force since February 1, 1958. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you born? - -Mr. MOONEY. Hopkins County, south of Brashear. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go to school there? - -Mr. MOONEY. I went to school at Middle Grove, Tex. - -Mr. BALL. How far did you go through school? - -Mr. MOONEY. I finished high school there. - -Mr. BALL. And then where did you go? - -Mr. MOONEY. Well, I finished making a crop--I was a farm boy. My father -passed away. I started school at A. & M. and had to withdraw after my -father's death, and come back home to my mother, because I was the only -child at home. And later on I took a course in aeronautical work, at -Luscomb School of Aeronautics, in Dallas, which is about--at that time -was about 75 miles from my home, and finished the course, and worked -for Luscomb in Garland, Tex., which is a suburb, or 15 miles out of -Dallas. - -And I worked there approximately a year before I was drafted into the -U.S. armed services. I was 19 years old when I was drafted, one of the -first. - -Mr. BALL. How long were you in the service? - -Mr. MOONEY. From 1942--I went in December, I believe it was, 28th, -1942, and got out February 20, 1946. I believe that is correct. - -Mr. BALL. And what did you do then, after that? - -Mr. MOONEY. I returned home on discharge, discharged out of the -services, honorable discharge. And I went to Dallas again, come back to -Dallas. - -After a short couple of weeks vacation, so to speak, I took a business -course at Drawns Business College in Dallas. - -I finished the course there and was employed at Johnson Brothers -Chevrolet Co. for 10 years, approximately 10 years, as a dispatcher -in the service department, in charge of the shops. And for 2 years I -worked for an automobile financing company, Associate Investment Co. - -And after 2 years of service there, I was employed by the Dallas County -Sheriff's Office, because I didn't desire to be transferred out of the -city of Dallas. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of work did you do for the sheriff's office? - -Mr. MOONEY. I worked in the Writ and Execution Department, Civil Law, -Writ of Sequestrations and Executions. That is my principal job. -However, we do everything that comes down. - -Mr. BALL. What do you call that writ? - -Mr. MOONEY. Writ of Sequestration, or you might call it sequest. - -Mr. BALL. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963? - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; I was. - -Mr. BALL. What was your job on that day? - -Mr. MOONEY. I didn't have a special assignment. Some of the officers -did out at the Market Hall. I was waiting in front of the Dallas -Criminal Courts Building, which is the sheriff's office, and we were -waiting outside on the front steps there. I was down on the sidewalk, -off the steps, on the street level, waiting for the motorcade to -approach. - -Mr. BALL. Were you standing there when the President went by? - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. I took my hat off. - -Mr. BALL. That is on Main Street? - -Mr. MOONEY. Right. - -Mr. BALL. And that is---- - -Mr. MOONEY. 505 Main. - -Mr. BALL. That is where the cavalcade turned north? - -Mr. MOONEY. Made a right turn, yes, sir; on Houston Street. - -Mr. BALL. That building is about a block south on Houston, isn't -it--south of the Texas School Book Depository? - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; it is a short block there. - -Mr. BALL. After the President's car went by, what did you do? - -Mr. MOONEY. Well, we were--we was more or less milling around. We just -kept standing there, more or less talking to one another. - -I don't know how many seconds had elapsed--it wasn't too many. - -Mr. BALL. You say "we." Who was with you? - -Mr. MOONEY. There was another officer there, Hiram Ingram--he is an -officer, also, a deputy sheriff. And I believe Ralph Walters was -standing there with me, and I believe there was a lady standing there, -by the name of Martha Johnson, who is one of the judges' wife, a JP -judge. - -I believe Officer Boone was standing near us, also. And I don't recall -how many more. There was a number of officers there. - -Mr. BALL. What happened, as you remember? - -Mr. MOONEY. After that few seconds elapsed, we heard this shot ring -out. At that time, I didn't realize it was a shot. The wind was blowing -pretty high, and, of course, it echoed. I turned my head this way. - -Mr. BALL. You mean to the right? - -Mr. MOONEY. To the right; yes, sir. We were facing more or less south. -And I turned my head to the right. - -Mr. BALL. That would be looking towards Houston Street? - -Mr. MOONEY. Looking towards the old court. - -Well, when I turned my head to the right; yes, sir. I would be looking -west. And there was a short lapse between these shots. I can still hear -them very distinctly--between the first and second shot. The second and -third shot was pretty close together, but there was a short lapse there -between the first and second shot. Why, I don't know. But when that -begin to take place--after the first shot we started moving out. And by -the time I started running--all of us except Officer Ingram--he had a -heart attack, and, of course, he wasn't qualified to do any running. - -Mr. BALL. Which way? - -Mr. MOONEY. Due west, across Houston Street, went down across this -lawn, across Elm Street there--I assume it is approximately the -location the President was hit. - -Of course the motorcade was gone. There wasn't anything there except a -bunch of people, a lot of them laying on the ground, taking on, various -things. I was running at full speed. - -Mr. BALL. When you ran across Elm, where did you go? - -Mr. MOONEY. Across Elm, up the embankment, which is a high terrace -there, across--there is a kind of concrete building there, more or less -of a little park. - -Jumped over the fence and went into the railroad yards. And, of course, -there was other officers over there. Who they were, I don't recall at -this time. But Ralph Walters and I were running together. And we jumped -into the railroad yards and began to look around there. - -And, of course, we didn't see anything there. Of course the other -officers had checked into the car there, and didn't find anything, I -don't believe, but a Negro porter. Of course there were quite a few -spectators milling around behind us. We were trying to clear the area -out and get all the civilians out that wasn't officers. - -Mr. BALL. Why did you go over to the railroad yard? - -Mr. MOONEY. Well, that was--from the echo of the shots, we thought they -came from that direction. - -Mr. BALL. That would be north and west from where you were standing? - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. To a certain extent--northwest. The way the echo -sounded, the cracking of the shot. And we wasn't there many seconds--of -course I never did look at my watch to see how many seconds it took -us to run so many hundred yards there, and into the railroad yard. We -were there only a few seconds until we had orders to cover the Texas -Depository Building. - -Mr. BALL. How did you get those orders? - -Mr. MOONEY. They were referred to us by the sheriff, Mr. Bill Decker. - -Mr. BALL. Where was he when he gave you those orders? - -Mr. MOONEY. They were relayed on to us. I assume Mr. Decker was up near -the intersection of Elm and Houston. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear it over a loudspeaker? - -Mr. MOONEY. No, sir. It come by word, by another officer. - -Mr. BALL. And you were with Walters at that time? - -Mr. MOONEY. Right. And where Officer Walters went at that time, I don't -know. We split up. I didn't see him any more until later on, which I -will refer to later. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go? - -Mr. MOONEY. Mr. Webster and Mr. Vickery were there with me at the time -that we received these orders from another deputy. - -Mr. BALL. They are deputy sheriffs? - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; they were plainclothes officers like myself, work -in the same department, and we run right over to the building then, -which we were only 150, 200 feet back--I assume it is that distance--I -haven't measured it. It didn't take us but a few seconds to get there. -When we hit the rear part, these big iron gates, they have cyclone -fencing on them--this used to be an old grocery store warehouse--Sachs -& Co., I believe is correct. And I says let's get these doors closed to -block off this rear entrance. - -Mr. BALL. Were the doors open? - -Mr. MOONEY. They were wide open, the big gates. So I grabbed one, and -we swung them to, and there was a citizen there, and I put him on -orders to keep them shut, because I don't recall whether there was a -lock on them or not. Didn't want to lock them because you never know -what might happen. - -So he stood guard, I assume, until a uniformed officer took over. - -We shut the back door--there was a back door on a little dock. And then -we went in through the docks, through the rear entrance. - -Officer Vickery and Webster said, "We will take the staircase there in -the corner." - -I said, "I will go up the freight elevator." I noticed there was a big -elevator there. So I jumped on it. And about that time two women come -running and said, "we want to go to the second floor." - -I said, "All right, get on, we are going." - -Mr. BALL. Which elevator did you get on? - -Mr. MOONEY. It was the one nearest to the staircase, on the northwest -corner of the building. - -Mr. BALL. There are two elevators there? - -Mr. MOONEY. I found that out later. I didn't know it at that time. - -Mr. BALL. You took the west one, or the east one? - -Mr. MOONEY. I would say it was the west elevator, the one nearest to -the staircase. - -Mr. BALL. Did it work with a push button? - -Mr. MOONEY. It was a push button affair the best I can remember. I -got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the -second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got -there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power -on the elevator. So I looked around their office there, just a short -second or two, and then I went up the staircase myself. And I met some -other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were -deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going -up. And how come I get off the sixth floor, I don't know yet. But, -anyway, I stopped on six, and didn't even know what floor I was on. - -Mr. BALL. You were alone? - -Mr. MOONEY. I was alone at that time. - -Mr. BALL. Was there any reason for you to go to the sixth floor? - -Mr. MOONEY. No, sir. That is what I say. I don't know why. I just -stopped on that particular floor. I thought I was pretty close to the -top. - -Mr. BALL. Were there any other officers on the floor? - -Mr. MOONEY. I didn't see any at that time. I assume there had -been other officers up there. But I didn't see them. And I begin -criss-crossing it, round and round, through boxes, looking at open -windows--some of them were open over on the south side. - -And I believe they had started laying some flooring up there. - -I was checking the fire escapes. And criss-crossing back and forth. And -then I decided--I saw there was another floor. And I said I would go -up. So I went on up to the seventh floor. I approached Officers Webster -and Vickery. They were up there--in this little old stairway there that -leads up into the attic. So we climbed up in there and looked around -right quick. We didn't climb all the way into the attic, almost into -it. We said this is too dark, we have got to have floodlights, because -we can't see. And so somebody made a statement that they believed -floodlights was on the way. And I later found out that probably -Officers Boone and Walters had gone after lights. I heard that. - -And so we looked around up there for a short time. And then I says I am -going back down on six. - -At that time, some news reporter, or press, I don't know who he was--he -was coming up with a camera. Of course he wasn't taking any pictures. -He was just looking, too, I assume. So I went back down ahead of -Officers Vickery and Webster. They come in behind me down to the sixth -floor. - -I went straight across to the southeast corner of the building, and -I saw all these high boxes. Of course they were stacked all the -way around over there. And I squeezed between two. And the minute -I squeezed between these two stacks of boxes, I had to turn myself -sideways to get in there--that is when I saw the expended shells and -the boxes that were stacked up looked to be a rest for the weapon. And, -also, there was a slight crease in the top box. Whether the recoil made -the crease or it was placed there before the shots were fired, I don't -know. But, anyway, there was a very slight crease in the box, where the -rifle could have lain--at the same angle that the shots were fired from. - -So, at that time, I didn't lay my hands on anything, because I wanted -to save every evidence we could for fingerprints. So I leaned out the -window, the same window from which the shots were fired, looked down, -and I saw Sheriff Bill Decker and Captain Will Fritz standing right on -the ground. - -Well, so I hollered, or signaled--I hollered, I more or less hollered. -I whistled a time or two before I got anybody to see me. And yet they -was all looking that way, too--except the sheriff, they wasn't looking -up. - -And I told him to get the crime lab officers en route, that I had the -location spotted. - -So I stood guard to see that no one disturbed anything until Captain -Will Fritz approached with his group of officers, city officers. At -that time, of course, when I hollered, of course Officers Vickery -and Webster, they came across and later on several other deputies--I -believe Officers McCurley, A. D. McCurley, I believe he came over. -Where he came from--they was all en route up there, I assume. - -Mr. BALL. I show you three pictures, Officer; for your convenience I -will give you the pictures. - -I have a picture here which has been marked as Commission Exhibit 508. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 508 for -identification.) - -Mr. BALL. Does that look anything like the southeast corner of the -building as you saw it that afternoon? - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. About what time of day was this? - -Mr. MOONEY. Well, it was approaching 1 o'clock. It could have been 1 -o'clock. - -Mr. BALL. Did you look at your watch? - -Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; I didn't. I should have, but I didn't look at my -watch at the time to see what time it was. - -Mr. BALL. Were you the only officer in that corner? - -Mr. MOONEY. At that very moment I was. - -Mr. BALL. You say you squeezed behind certain boxes. Can you point out -for me what boxes you squeezed through? - -Mr. MOONEY. If I remember correctly, I went in there from this angle -right here--right through here. There could be a space. There is a -space there I squeezed in between here, and that is when I got into -the opening, because the minute I squeezed through there there lay the -shells. - -Mr. BALL. All right. Let's make a mark here. Is this the space? - -Mr. MOONEY. I believe that is going to be the space; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. If I make an arrow on that, would that indicate it? - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. There is another picture I have seen later that -shows an opening in through here, but I didn't see that opening at that -time. - -Mr. BALL. That is the opening through which you squeezed? And it is an -arrow shown on Exhibit 508. - -Now, I will show you 509. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 509 for -identification.) - -Is that the way the boxes looked? - -Mr. MOONEY. That is the three boxes, but one of them was tilted off -just a little, laying down on the edge, I believe, to my knowledge. - -Mr. BALL. Now, does that look like---- - -Mr. MOONEY. That is the three boxes that were there; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Are they arranged as they were when you saw them? - -Mr. MOONEY. I am not positive. As I remember right, there was one box -tilted off. - -Mr. BALL. What were the boxes--did they have a label on them, two of -the boxes? - -Mr. MOONEY. These do. I didn't notice the label at that time. - -Mr. BALL. That is a picture of the window? - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Do I understand that you say that it appeared to you that the -top box was tilted? - -Mr. MOONEY. The end of it was laying this way. - -Mr. BALL. You say there was a crease in a box. Where was that crease? - -Mr. MOONEY. This crease was right in this area of this box. - -Mr. BALL. You mean over on the edge? - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; on this far ledge here, where I am laying my -finger. - -Mr. BALL. Did it go into the box? - -Mr. MOONEY. Very slight crease, very slight. - -Mr. BALL. Can you take this and point out about where the crease was on -509? - -Now, was there anything you saw over in the corner? - -Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; I didn't see anything over in the corner. I did -see this one partially eaten piece of fried chicken laying over to the -right. It looked like he was facing---- - -Mr. BALL. Tell us where you found it? - -Mr. MOONEY. It would be laying over on the top of these other boxes. -This here is kind of blurred. - -Mr. BALL. We will get to that in a moment. Now, I show you 510. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 510 for -identification.) - -Mr. BALL. Is that the empty shells you found? - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Are they shown there? - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, will you take this and encircle the shells? - -Mr. MOONEY. All right. - -Mr. BALL. Put a fairly good sized circle around each shell. That is the -way they were when you saw them, is that right? - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. I assume that this possibly could have been the -first shot. - -Mr. BALL. You cannot speculate about that? - -Mr. MOONEY. You cannot speculate about that. - -Mr. BALL. Those were empty shells? - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. They were turned over to Captain Fritz? - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; he was the first officer that picked them up, as -far as I know, because I stood there and watched him go over and pick -them up and look at them. As far as I could tell, I couldn't even tell -what caliber they were, because I didn't get down that close to them. -They were brass cartridges, brass shells. - -Mr. BALL. Is this the position of the cartridges as shown on 510, as -you saw them? - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. That is just about the way they were laying, to -the best of my knowledge. I do know there was--one was further away, -and these other two were relatively close together--on this particular -area. But these cartridges--this one and this one looks like they are -further apart than they actually was. - -Mr. BALL. Which ones? - -Mr. MOONEY. This one and this one. - -Mr. BALL. Now, two cartridges were close together, is that right? - -Mr. MOONEY. The one cartridge here, by the wall facing, is right. And -this one and this one, they were further away from this one. - -Mr. BALL. Well---- - -Mr. MOONEY. But as to being positive of the exact distance---- - -Mr. BALL. You think that the cartridges are in the same position as -when you saw them in this picture 510? - -Mr. MOONEY. As far as my knowledge, they are; pretty close to right. - -Mr. BALL. Well, we will label these cartridges, the empty shells as -"A", "B", and "C." - -Now, I didn't quite understand--did you say it was your memory that "A" -and "B" were not that close together? - -Mr. MOONEY. Just from my memory, it seems that this cartridge ought to -have been over this way a little further. - -Mr. BALL. You mean the "B" cartridge should be closer to the "C?" - -Mr. MOONEY. Closer to the "C"; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, I have another picture here which I should like to have -marked as 511. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 511 for -identification.) - -Mr. BALL. Does this appear to be--first of all, does that appear---- - -Mr. MOONEY. There are two cartridges. - -Where is the third one? - -Mr. BALL. The third one is not in this picture. This is taken from -another angle. - -Mr. MOONEY. This looks more like it than this angle here. - -Mr. BALL. You can see it is a different angle. - -Mr. MOONEY. That is right. - -Mr. BALL. Now, in this same picture--511, you see a box in the window. -Does that seem to be about the angle---- - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes; that box was tilted. - -Mr. BALL. That was tilted in that way? - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, when you made a crease on 509, the box shown in 509---- - -Mr. MOONEY. The box should have been actually tilted. - -Mr. BALL. In other words, it was your testimony, was it, that the box -as shown in 509 was not as you first saw it? - -Mr. MOONEY. If I recall it right, this box was tilted. It had fallen -off--looked like he might have knocked it off. - -Mr. BALL. Well, you cannot speculate to that, but you can just tell us -what you saw. What about the box in the window shown in 511? - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Is that the box that had the crease on it? - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; I believe that is correct. - -Mr. BALL. Now, the crease was--started from the edge, and came across? - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; just a slight crease. - -Mr. BALL. I have another picture. This is 512. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 512 for -identification.) - -Mr. BALL. Here is a picture taken, also, from another angle. Does that -show the cartridges? - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, compare that with 510. - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Is that about the way it looked? - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; that is right. It sure is. - -Mr. BALL. Now, were the boxes, as you saw them, on the extreme left -side of the window, the middle of the window, or the right side. - -Mr. MOONEY. Well, they were further over to the left of the window than -over to the right. More or less as they are in there in that picture. - -Mr. BALL. In 509? - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, the boxes are in about the right position with reference -to---- - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; because I had room enough to stand right here, -and lean out this window, without disturbing the boxes. - -Mr. BALL. You could stand on the right of the boxes? - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And put your head out the window? - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. If I recall, I put my hand on the outside of this -ledge. - -Mr. BALL. And put your head out the window? - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Was the window open when you got there? - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. If you stood to the left of the boxes, could you have looked -out the window? - -Mr. MOONEY. I don't believe I could, without disturbing them. Possibly -I might have, could have, but I just didn't try it. - -Mr. BALL. Now, I show you Exhibit 513. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 513, for -identification.) - -Mr. BALL. This is another view of that window. - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see it from that angle? - -Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; I never did. - -Mr. BALL. You don't think you have ever seen it---- - -Mr. MOONEY. From that angle. - -Mr. BALL. Does that show any place where you saw the chicken bone? - -Mr. MOONEY. If I recall correctly, the chicken bone could have been -laying on this box or it might have been laying on this box right here. - -Mr. BALL. Make a couple of marks there to indicate where possibly the -chicken bone was lying. - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Make two "X's". You think there was a chicken bone on the top -of either one of those two? - -Mr. MOONEY. There was one of them partially eaten. And there was a -little small paper poke. - -Mr. BALL. By poke, you mean a paper sack? - -Mr. MOONEY. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Where was that? - -Mr. MOONEY. Saw the chicken bone was laying here. The poke was laying -about a foot away from it. - -Mr. BALL. On the same carton? - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. In close relation to each other. But as to what -was in the sack--it was kind of together, and I didn't open it. I -didn't put my hands on it to open it. I only saw one piece of chicken. - -Senator COOPER. How far was the chicken, the piece of chicken you saw, -and the paper bag from the boxes near the window, and particularly the -box that had the crease in it? - -Mr. MOONEY. I would say they might have been 5 feet or something like -that. He wouldn't have had to leave the location. He could just maybe -take one step and lay it over there, if he was the one that put it -there. - -Senator COOPER. You mean if someone had been standing near the box with -the crease in it? - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. It would have been that approximate distance to the -chicken leg and paper bag? - -Mr. MOONEY. Sir? - -Senator COOPER. And the paper bag you spoke of? - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; they were in close relation to each other, yes, -sir. - -Mr. BALL. How big a bag was it? - -Mr. MOONEY. Well, as to the number--these bags are numbered, I -understand. But it was--I don't know what the number you would call it, -but it didn't stand more than that high. - -Mr. BALL. About 12 inches? - -Mr. MOONEY. About 8 to 10 inches, at the most. - -Mr. BALL. What color was the bag? - -Mr. MOONEY. It was brown. Just a regular paper bag. Just as a grocery -store uses for their produce and what-have-you. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see any soda pop? - -Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see a paper bag at any other window? - -Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Any other chicken bones? - -Mr. MOONEY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see a Dr. Pepper bottle any place? - -Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; except in the picture. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't see it? - -Mr. MOONEY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. When you say you have seen the picture, I will show you the -picture, and let me see if that is the one you mean you have seen. That -is Commission 484. This picture has been shown to you, hasn't it? - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I showed you that. - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And you did not see that two-wheel truck? - -Mr. MOONEY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You did not see the Dr. Pepper bottle? - -Mr. MOONEY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't see a paper sack anywhere near a two-wheel truck -or a Dr. Pepper bottle? - -Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; in my running around up there, I didn't observe -it. Possibly it was there. I am sure it was. But I didn't check it. - -Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there? - -Mr. MOONEY. Sir? - -Mr. BALL. How long did you stay up on the sixth floor? After you found -the location of the three cartridges? - -Mr. MOONEY. Well, I stayed up there not over 15 or 20 minutes -longer--after Captain Will Fritz and his officers came over there, -Captain Fritz picked up the cartridges, began to examine them, of -course I left that particular area. By that time there was a number of -officers up there. The floor was covered with officers, And we were -searching, trying to find the weapon at that time. - -Mr. BALL. Were you there when it was found? - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. I was searching under these books and between -them and up on the ledges and the joists, we was just looking -everywhere. And I was about 10 or 15 steps at the most from Officer -Boone when he hollered, "Here is the gun." - -Mr. BALL. Did you go over there? - -Mr. MOONEY. I stepped over there. - -Mr. BALL. What did you see? - -Mr. MOONEY. I had to look twice before I actually saw the gun laying -in there. I had to get around to the right angle before I could see -it. And there the gun lay, stuck between these cartons in an upright -position. The scope was up. - -Mr. BALL. Well, now, I will show you a picture, 514. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 514, for -identification.) - -Senator COOPER. May I ask--did you change the position of the shells -which you have identified? - -Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; I didn't have my hands on them. - -Senator COOPER. Or the bag, or chicken leg? - -Mr. MOONEY. No, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Until--before the chief came? - -Mr. MOONEY. Captain Will Fritz; yes, sir; he is the chief. - -Senator COOPER. Was there any odor in the area when you first got there? - -Mr. MOONEY. I didn't particularly notice any. Now, there could have -been a slight powder odor there. - -(At this point, Mr. Warren entered the hearing room.) - -Senator COOPER. Did you smell any powder? - -Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; not to my knowledge. Of course it was musty odor, -with all those cartons and books there. - -Mr. BALL. Do you see the picture which is 514? Does it look like -anything like that? - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; with the exception there was more cartons around -it than that. In other words, the way it looked to me, when I walked -over there--of course these may have been disturbed at a later date. - -Mr. BALL. It looks like there are more cartons? - -Mr. MOONEY. No; there is less cartons around it right now. Of course -that is looking straight down. Now, there are some more boxes here. - -Mr. BALL. I show you a picture which we will mark as 515. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 515 for -identification.) - -Mr. MOONEY. But that is in the position the gun was laying. - -Mr. BALL. That is about the position of the gun? - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, here is a picture of that marked stairway. Can you -orient yourself from that picture? - -Mr. MOONEY. Let's see. Here is the staircase right in here. If I -remember right, the gun was either in this crack or this one here. I -don't remember which. - -Mr. BALL. Does that show you about the number of cartons around? - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; that is the way it looked; sure did. Because I -had to stand up back here, before I could see over off in there. - -Mr. BALL. And when you did look down there between the cartons, was the -gun---- - -Mr. MOONEY. It was sitting in that position. The scope was up. - -Mr. BALL. As shown in 514? - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. That is the way it was laying, in that position. - -Senator COOPER. It was lying on the floor? - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. With the scope on the upper side? - -Mr. MOONEY. The scope in upright position. The stock was back to the -east. In other words, the gun was pointed west. - -Mr. BALL. Did a photographer come up and take pictures when you were -there? - -Mr. MOONEY. There was a number of photographers up there shooting -pictures. Who they were or who they represented--I assume it was the -press. - -Mr. BALL. How long were they there? - -Mr. MOONEY. They were there when all these officers and everybody was -up there. - -Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. - -Senator COOPER. How far was it from the place where the gun was found, -from where you first saw the rifle, to the window? - -Mr. MOONEY. You mean how far was it from the gun to the window? - -Senator COOPER. Yes; where you saw the shells. - -Mr. MOONEY. Well, it was clear across the entire sixth floor, -thereabouts. In other words, if you take the location from where the -shells were found, they were in the southeast corner. And this was in -the far northwest corner. Just right there at the staircase. - -And the distance across there, I just don't know how far it is, but it -is quite a large warehouse floor. - -Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. I would like to offer the -exhibits up to 515, inclusive. May this witness be excused? - -The CHAIRMAN. Any questions, Senator Cooper? - -Senator COOPER. As you examined these exhibits, you gave your best -judgment, your recollection of the location of the boxes and the shells. - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. The way I remember, sir, is---- - -Senator COOPER. The chicken and the paper bag? - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. I do remember that the one box was tilted off, -laying partially over on the legs. - -Senator COOPER. That was the box which you said you observed a crease -in? - -Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. Just very slight, very slight. - -Senator COOPER. Is that the box which was the top box? - -Mr. MOONEY. The way I remember, the two boxes and the third one was -the one tilted off. It looked like it possibly could have been knocked -off from a movement, because it wasn't naturally placed that way by -hand for any purpose, because it wouldn't have had any purpose, to my -knowledge. - -Senator COOPER. Let the exhibits which have been offered be admitted in -evidence. - -(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission -Exhibits Nos. 508 through 515, were received in evidence.) - -Mr. MOONEY. In other words, if you just run against it, you would have -knocked it off. - -The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much for coming, sir. You have been very -helpful. - -Mr. BALL. Our next witness is Deputy Sheriff Boone. - - -TESTIMONY OF EUGENE BOONE - -The CHAIRMAN. Sit right down, Mr. Boone. - -Senator COOPER. The purpose of this hearing is to hear the testimony -of M. L. Baker, Mrs. R. A. Reid, Eugene Boone, Luke Mooney, and M. -N. McDonald. Officer Baker and Mrs. Reid were in the vicinity of the -Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination. -Deputy Sheriffs Boone and Mooney assisted in the search of the sixth -floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building shortly after the -assassination, and Officer McDonald apprehended Lee Harvey Oswald at -the Texas theatre. - -Will you be sworn? Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to -give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so -help you God? - -Mr. BOONE. I do. - -Senator COOPER. You understand the purpose of this inquiry? - -Mr. BOONE. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. You have come here voluntarily to testify? - -Mr. BOONE. Yes. - -Senator COOPER. Do you have a counsel with you? - -Mr. BOONE. No. - -Senator COOPER. Do you desire one? - -Mr. BOONE. No. - -Mr. BALL. What is your business? - -Mr. BOONE. I am a deputy sheriff in or for the county of Dallas. - -Mr. BALL. How long have you been a deputy sheriff? - -Mr. BOONE. A year and a half. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you born? - -Mr. BOONE. Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. BALL. Go to school there? - -Mr. BOONE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How far through school did you go? - -Mr. BOONE. High school. - -Mr. BALL. In Dallas? - -Mr. BOONE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do after you got out of school? - -Mr. BOONE. I was working with the Dallas Times Herald Newspaper there, -in the advertising department. - -Mr. BALL. How long did you work there? - -Mr. BOONE. Well, I worked there part time when I was going to school, -up until the time I quit, 8 years. - -Mr. BALL. Is that the time you went with the sheriff's office? - -Mr. BOONE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How old are you? - -Mr. BOONE. Twenty-six. - -Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November, where were you working? - -Mr. BOONE. I was working downtown. I was out viewing the parade. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you view the parade? - -Mr. BOONE. Right in front of the sheriff's office. - -Mr. BALL. Had you been assigned a place, a job that day? - -Mr. BOONE. No. - -Mr. BALL. You were out in front of the sheriff's office on Main Street? - -Mr. BOONE. That is correct. - -Mr. BALL. Near Houston? - -Mr. BOONE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And who were you with? - -Mr. BOONE. Officer Mooney was out there, I believe, and several of the -office personnel, women in the office, clerk-typist and what-have-you. -Ralph Walters, Buddy Walthers, Allen Sweatt, L. C. Smith. Officer -Gramstaff. That is about all I can remember. - -Mr. BALL. What happened there? - -Mr. BOONE. Well, it was approximately 1 o'clock when we heard the -shots. The motorcade had already passed by us and turned back to the -north on Houston Street. And we heard what we thought to be a shot. -And there seemed to be a pause between the first shot and the second -shot and third shots--a little longer pause. And we raced across the -street there. - -Mr. BALL. You raced across what street? - -Mr. BOONE. Houston Street. - -Mr. BALL. You turned to your right and went west? - -Mr. BOONE. Well, there is a big cement works out there. We went on west -across Houston Street, and then cut across the grass out there behind -the large cement works there. Some of the bystanders over there seemed -to think the shots came from up over the railroad in the freight yards, -from over the triple underpass. - -So there was some city officer, I don't know who he was, motorcycle -officer had laid his motorcycle down and was running up the embankment -to get over a little retaining wall that separates the freight yards -there. He went over the wall first, and I was right behind him, going -into the freight yards. We searched out the freight yards. We were -unable to find anything. - -Mr. BALL. A good many officers over there searching? - -Mr. BOONE. Yes; there were. Most all of the officers--well, all of the -officers in front of the sheriff's office there. There were others that -I don't recall. There were other officers in the area. Also, they all -ran in that general direction, over around the depository and also down -into the freight yards. - -Mr. BALL. Any railroad employees around there? - -Mr. BOONE. There was one colored boy way on back down in the freight -yards. He had been working on one of the pullmans down there. - -Mr. BALL. And didn't you talk to somebody that was also in a tower? - -Mr. BOONE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. BALL. A man named Bowers? - -Mr. BOONE. I don't know what his name was. He was up in the tower and -I hollered up there to see if he had seen anybody running out there in -the freight yards, or heard any shots. And he said he didn't hear any -shots, and he hadn't seen anybody racing around out there in the yard. - -Mr. BALL. That was a railroad tower? - -Mr. BOONE. Yes; it is situated between the tracks and the school book -depository. Almost directly west of the building. - -Mr. BALL. After that, what did you do? - -Mr. BOONE. Well, I finally went around and was talking to some of the -spectators that were in the area there, located a boy by the name of -Betzer. He had taken what he thought was some photographs, or there -were photographs--he thought he might have had a portion of the -building. - -Later on we were able to ascertain that the shots had come from the -building, from that southeast corner over there. And he had some -photographs, but they didn't extend past the second floor on the -building. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go up into the building then? - -Mr. BOONE. I took him on over to the sheriff's office, and placed him -in the sheriff's office, took his camera, to bring it back to the ID -Bureau to be developed. Placed him in the sheriff's office at that time -to await somebody to take a statement from him. - -Then some other officers, Ralph Walters and Officer Gramstaff, and I -don't know whether--I don't remember Officer Mooney was with them or -not at that time--they headed back to get some heavy power flashlights. -They said they wanted to look around in the attic. And there were a -bunch of pallets, that they moved the books around, and it was dark and -they couldn't see. So we got the lights and went over to the building. - -At that time, we proceeded directly to the sixth floor. - -Mr. BALL. Somebody tell you to go to the sixth floor? - -Mr. BOONE. Well, that is just where everybody was going. And they said -five floors below that--I believe Inspector Sawyer with the city was -out there, and he said the other floors were in the process of being -searched or had been already searched. This was after Officer Mooney -found the shells. - -Mr. BALL. Did somebody tell you Officer Mooney had found some shells? - -Mr. BOONE. Not him in particular. They said the shells had been found -on the sixth floor. At that time, I didn't know he had found them. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do after you got up to the sixth floor? - -Mr. BOONE. Well, I proceeded to the east end of the building, I -guess, and started working our way across the building to the west -wall, looking in, under, and around all the boxes and pallets, and -what-have-you that were on the floor. Looking for the weapon. And as I -got to the west wall, there were a row of windows there, and a slight -space between some boxes and the wall. I squeezed through them. - -When I did--I had my light in my hand. I was slinging it around on the -floor, and I caught a glimpse of the rifle, stuffed down between two -rows of boxes with another box or so pulled over the top of it. And I -hollered that the rifle was here. - -Mr. BALL. What happened then? - -Mr. BOONE. Some of the other officers came over to look at it. I told -them to stand back, not to get around close, they might want to take -prints of some of the boxes, and not touch the rifle. And at that time -Captain Fritz and an ID man came over. I believe the ID man's name -was Lieutenant Day--I am not sure. They came over and the weapon was -photographed as it lay. And at that time Captain Fritz picked it up by -the strap, and it was removed from the place where it was. - -Mr. BALL. You saw them take the photograph? - -Mr. BOONE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Were you alone at that time? - -Mr. BOONE. There was an Officer Weitzman, I believe. He is a deputy -constable. - -Mr. BALL. Where was the rifle located on the floor, general location? - -Mr. BOONE. Well, it was almost--the stairwell is in the corner of the -building, something like this, and there is a wall coming up here, -making one side of the stairwell with the building acting as the other -two sides. And from that, it was almost directly in front or about 3 -feet south, I guess, it would be, from that partition wall that made up -the stairwell. - -Mr. BALL. The rifle was about 3 feet from the---- - -Mr. BOONE. Yes, sir; behind a row of boxes. There was a row of boxes -that came across there. Then the rifle was behind that first row of -boxes. - -Mr. BALL. I show you 514. Is that the way it looked when you saw it? - -Mr. BOONE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Is that the way it was when the picture was taken? - -Mr. BOONE. Yes; I believe so. - -Mr. BALL. This shows the rifle as you saw it, does it? - -Mr. BOONE. That is right. Then you could kneel down over here and -see that it had a scope, a telescopic sight on it, by looking down -underneath the boxes. - -Mr. BALL. Now, I show you 515. Does that look anything like the area -where you found the rifle? - -Mr. BOONE. Yes; it did. - -Mr. BALL. Will you put that down on the table so that everyone can see -where it is, and show us where the rifle was with reference to the -stairwell? - -Mr. BOONE. This is that retaining wall here that I was talking about -here. Now, the rifle was right down in this area right here, almost -directly. This is the west end of the building here, this being the -north side, as I recall. - -Mr. BALL. That is the northwest corner? - -Mr. BOONE. Yes. And it is about 3 feet from the edge--you cannot see -the edge of it because it is behind this. - -Mr. BALL. The edge of what? - -Mr. BOONE. The stairwell wall here. It is about 3 feet from where this -partition ends over to--back behind these cases of books here. - -Mr. BALL. Can you mark with an arrow there the exact space between the -boxes where you found the rifle as shown on this exhibit, which is 514? - -Mr. BOONE. What do you mean--the exact space? It was in this space -right in here, like this. - -Mr. BALL. The arrow marks the space. - -Mr. BOONE. I had come around these boxes here, next to the windows over -here, and that is when I saw it, looking down across this way. - -Mr. BALL. You came along the west wall, near the windows shown in this -picture 514? - -Mr. BOONE. That is correct. - -Mr. BALL. And when you looked in the direction that would be easterly, -that is when you saw the rifle? - -Mr. BOONE. Northeasterly. - -Mr. BALL. Here is another picture which we will mark as 516. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 516 for -identification.) - -Mr. BALL. Now, 515 contains the arrow which shows the space between -boxes where you found the rifle, is that right? - -Mr. BOONE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Now, I show you an exhibit marked 516. Does that show--what -corner of the building does that show? Or do you recognize it? - -Mr. BOONE. It appears to be the same general location here. - -Mr. BALL. Show---- - -Mr. BOONE. This is the stairwell back here in the corner. If I am not -mistaken, there is a freight elevator over here. - -Mr. BALL. That would be the right of the picture? - -Mr. BOONE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Now, point to the boxes where you found the rifle. - -Mr. BOONE. Right down in this general direction. - -Mr. BALL. Draw another arrow. I show you Exhibit 483, a diagram of -the sixth floor. Now, by referring to these numbers, can you show us -approximately where the rifle was found? - -Mr. BOONE. Roughly in the area here, designated by the arrow No. 35. - -Mr. BALL. The diagram on the sixth floor, as the Commission knows, has -been correlated with certain pictures. I now have Commission Exhibit -517 marked, which has the figure 35 on it, which corresponds to the -position of the camera at the time the picture was taken. - -In other words, at about point 35 on this map. And now I show you a -photograph marked 517. Is that about the way the rifle looked when you -first saw it? - -Mr. BOONE. Yes; it is. There was some newsman up there right behind -Officer Whitman and myself who took movie film of it, too. I don't know -his name. - -Mr. BALL. What time was it? - -Mr. BOONE. 1:22 p.m., in the afternoon. - -Mr. BALL. 1:22? - -Mr. BOONE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You looked at your watch? - -Mr. BOONE. That is correct. - -Mr. BALL. And made a note of it? - -Mr. BOONE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. BALL. I show you a rifle which is Commission Exhibit 139. Can you -tell us whether or not that looks like the rifle you saw on the floor -that day? - -Mr. BOONE. It looks like the same rifle. I have no way of being -positive. - -Mr. BALL. You never handled it? - -Mr. BOONE. I did not touch the weapon at all. - -Mr. BALL. I would like to offer all the exhibits we have offered with -this witness, which is 515 to 516 and 517, into evidence. - -Senator COOPER. Let the exhibits be admitted in evidence. - -(The documents referred to marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 515, 516, -and 517 were received in evidence.) - -Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. - -The CHAIRMAN. I think you said that the reason you didn't touch it was -because of the danger of fingerprints on there, is that right? - -Mr. BOONE. That is correct. The city officers had personnel in charge -up there. Captain Fritz, I believe, was in charge, senior officer on -the floor. - -He was called to the location as soon as I found the rifle. He came -over, and it was photographed then. - -Senator COOPER. Did you notice whether the rifle that you discovered -had a telescopic sight? - -Mr. BOONE. Yes, it did. - -Senator COOPER. Did it have a sling? - -Mr. BOONE. Yes, it did. Because Captain Fritz picked it up by the sling -when he removed it from its resting place. - -Senator COOPER. Looking at Exhibit 483, which represents the floor plan -of the sixth floor, you have marked on there the place where you found -the rifle. Is that near the stairwell? - -Mr. BOONE. Yes, sir; this is the stairwell right here in the northeast -corner. - -Senator COOPER. Also near the elevators? - -Mr. BOONE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Pardon me, Senator Cooper, I think you said northeast. - -Mr. BOONE. Northwest--I beg your pardon. - -Senator COOPER. Do you remember whether Officer Mooney came up after -you found the rifle? - -Mr. BOONE. I don't recall. There were officers, both city and county -officers, and constables officers up in the area on the floor. Now, -whether he was among the crowd there, I do not know. - -Senator COOPER. When you climbed over the retaining wall at the -railroad yard, can you describe what the situation in the railroad yard -was at that time? Were there railroad cars in the area? - -Mr. BOONE. There were four railroad cars down approximately 100 yards -from the retaining wall, right over the Elm Street tunnel, or portion -of the triple underpass. Then there were some people down to the south -of the triple underpass which had viewed the parade, or were viewing -the parade--I don't know. The city officer went back south, as I -recall, and I went off to the north, northwest. - -Senator COOPER. Thank you. - -The CHAIRMAN. Sheriff, thank you very much. - -Mr. BALL. There is one question. Did you hear anybody refer to this -rifle as a Mauser that day? - -Mr. BOONE. Yes, I did. And at first, not knowing what it was, I thought -it was 7.65 Mauser. - -Mr. BALL. Who referred to it as a Mauser that day? - -Mr. BOONE. I believe Captain Fritz. He had knelt down there to look at -it, and before he removed it, not knowing what it was, he said that is -what it looks like. This is when Lieutenant Day, I believe his name is, -the ID man was getting ready to photograph it. - -We were just discussing it back and forth. And he said it looks like a -7.65 Mauser. - -Mr. BALL. Thank you. - -The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Sheriff. You have been very helpful. - -Mr. BALL. Call Officer McDonald. - - -TESTIMONY OF M. N. McDONALD - -Senator COOPER. Will you stand up and be sworn? Do you swear that -the testimony you shall give will be the truth, the whole truth, and -nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. McDONALD. I do. - -Senator COOPER. You understand that the purpose of this inquiry is to -inquire into the circumstances surrounding the assassination of the -late President Kennedy? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; I do. - -Senator COOPER. Today's hearings are to hear testimony of various -witnesses, including yourself, who were in the vicinity of the Texas -School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination, and -because it is reported you apprehended Lee Harvey Oswald in the Texas -theatre. - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Do you testify here voluntarily? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Do you have counsel with you? - -Mr. McDONALD. No, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Do you desire counsel? - -Mr. McDONALD. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Mr. McDonald, where do you live? - -Mr. McDONALD. 530 South Port Drive. - -Mr. BALL. In Dallas? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you born? - -Mr. McDONALD. Camden, Ark. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go to school in Arkansas? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How far through school did you go? - -Mr. McDONALD. Well, I finished through the 11th grade, took an -equivalent for a high school diploma, and I attended 1 year at Arkansas -State Teachers College in Conway. - -Mr. BALL. What year was that? - -Mr. McDONALD. 1948 and 1949. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do after that? - -Mr. McDONALD. Well, worked in a printing firm for awhile, after getting -out of college a year. Then I joined the Air Force. But in a break -between high school and college, I entered the Navy, in January 1946. I -served 22 months in the Navy, active duty. - -Mr. BALL. Then you say in the 1950's you joined the Air Force? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; December 29, 1950. - -Mr. BALL. How long were you in the Air Force? - -Mr. McDONALD. Four years. - -Mr. BALL. What work did you do in the Air Force? - -Mr. McDONALD. I was a supply sergeant. - -Mr. BALL. After that, what did you do? - -Mr. McDONALD. I became a policeman in the Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. BALL. That was in 1956? - -Mr. McDONALD. March 3, 1955. - -Mr. BALL. And you have been a police officer ever since? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Were you on duty on March--November 22, 1963? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What was your job that day? - -Mr. McDONALD. Radio patrol. - -Mr. BALL. What were your hours of duty? - -Mr. McDONALD. From 7:30 a.m. to 3:30 p.m. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ride alone or have a partner? - -Mr. McDONALD. No, sir; I had a partner. - -Mr. BALL. What is his name? - -Mr. McDONALD. T. R. Gregory. - -Mr. BALL. Were you cruising about 12:30 that day? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. In what area? - -Mr. McDONALD. On the Westmoreland Avenue and Falls Drive intersection. - -Mr. BALL. Was your area, an area close to downtown Dallas or outside? - -Mr. McDONALD. Outside, approximately 8 miles. - -Mr. BALL. Did you get an order over the radio about that time to move -your car? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What was the order? - -Mr. McDONALD. Report to the vicinity of Elm and Houston Streets, code 3. - -Mr. BALL. And did you know Officer Tippit? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Was he also a radio patrol officer? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; he was. - -Mr. BALL. Did he cruise alone or with a partner? - -Mr. McDONALD. He was cruising alone. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know what his area--the area assigned to him on that -day? - -Mr. McDONALD. The southern part of Oak Cliff, nearing the city limits. - -Mr. BALL. Was that farther out from the center of town than you? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; approximately 10 to 12 miles. - -Mr. BALL. Did Tippit usually cruise alone, or did he ever have a -partner sometimes? - -Mr. McDONALD. Well, working in the daylight hours, which we were -assigned that month, it is a custom to work alone--unless he had a -trainee, such as I. I don't believe he was a trainer. - -Mr. BALL. In other words, you had a trainee with you, and that is the -reason you were not alone? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear an order over the radio for cars in the outlying -district near the city limits, what they were to do? - -Mr. McDONALD. They were to move in closer to the downtown area, but not -directly to the area. - -Mr. BALL. You were ordered to move into the downtown area? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And the cars that were cruising farther out were ordered to -move closer to the downtown area? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear any other specific orders over the radio that -day--that morning, or about 12:30, 1 o'clock? - -Mr. McDONALD. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do after you received those orders? - -Mr. McDONALD. I applied my red lights and sirens, and went code 32, Elm -and Houston Streets. - -Mr. BALL. About what time did you get there? - -Mr. McDONALD. Approximately 10 minutes later. - -Mr. BALL. What time would that be? - -Mr. McDONALD. Approximately 12:40. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you park your car? - -Mr. McDONALD. On the right curb, Elm Street, before you enter the -triple underpass. - -Mr. BALL. And how long did you stay there? - -Mr. McDONALD. Approximately 35 minutes. - -Mr. BALL. What were you doing there? - -Mr. McDONALD. Well, after I left the car, my partner and I reported to -a supervisor, and he directed us to patrol the crowd and move the crowd -around Elm Street, and rope off the area. - -Mr. BALL. Now, was your radio on? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. There were several police units around the -intersection, and all the radios were on. And after I had moved the -crowd around, went back to the entrance of the Texas School Book -Depository, I heard this over the police radio, of--the first thing I -heard was that President Kennedy had expired at Parkland Hospital. - -And the next thing I heard was a voice over the radio that was not -familiar to police procedure. He was saying that an officer had been -shot, and that he was using car No. 10 radio. Of my own knowledge, -I knew that car was driven by Officer Tippit, and that that car was -assigned to his district. - -Mr. BALL. Did he give you a location? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; 400 block of East 10th Street. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do? - -Mr. McDONALD. I told my partner we were not doing much good here, to go -to Oak Cliff, and see if we could help out over there, try to apprehend -the person that shot Tippit. - -Mr. BALL. Did you? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go in Oak Cliff? - -Mr. McDONALD. Well, we got in the car and went underneath the triple -underpass and got on the Stemmons Expressway, which leads into the R. -L. Thornton Expressway. I believe we took the Jefferson exit and drove -up to the 400 block of East Jefferson. - -Mr. BALL. Patton is about a block to the north of Jefferson? - -Mr. McDONALD. Patton runs across Jefferson. Tenth and Patton. - -Mr. BALL. Patton runs north and south? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Tenth Street is a block north of Jefferson? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How did you happen to go to the 400 block on Jefferson? - -Mr. McDONALD. I was stopped by other officers there. They wanted to -search a house. So I relieved my partner to go to help the supervisors -search this house, in the 400 block of East Jefferson. Then I went -around to the alleys, and started cruising the alley in my squad car. - -Mr. BALL. And did you get a call over your radio to go to a certain -place? - -Mr. McDONALD. Well, there was a report from the dispatcher that a -suspect was seen running into the public library at Marsalis and -Jefferson. - -Mr. BALL. You went down there? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. I went directly to Denver Street, which is an -alley at that point. It is still designated as Denver Street. I parked -the squad car, took my shotgun, and went to the west basement entrance -to the public library, and ordered the people in the basement, in the -library outside. They came out with their hands up. - -The boy immediately said that he had just run into the library to tell -the people that the President had been shot. He was a much younger -person than what was broadcast on description on the radio. - -Mr. BALL. You had heard a broadcast? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Of a description, of someone to look for? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did you hear? - -Mr. McDONALD. White male, approximately 27 years old, 5 foot 10, weight -about 145 pounds, wearing light clothing. - -Mr. BALL. When did you hear that? About what time? - -Mr. McDONALD. It came out on the radio as I was coming to Oak Cliff. -There was another general description given on the way to the Texas -School Book Depository at Elm and Houston Streets. But it was a vague -description. - -Mr. BALL. The first description that you heard of a man to look for was -on the way downtown to the Texas School Book Depository? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What was that description? - -Mr. McDONALD. White male, approximately 27, 29 years old, and he had a -white shirt on, weighed about 160 pounds. - -Mr. BALL. And that was about 12:40 you got that? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, this later description you got was what point in your -travel to Oak Cliff? - -Mr. McDONALD. This was approximately 1:20, or 1:17. - -Mr. BALL. That was after you had heard that Tippit--that the officer -had been shot? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And what was that description? - -Mr. McDONALD. Well, it was 5 foot 10, white male, 27 years old, wearing -a white shirt. - -Mr. BALL. Now, as you were cruising the alleys, you had gone into -the library basement, and gone to cruising the alleys, did you hear -something else over the radio that drew your attention to another -part---- - -Mr. McDONALD. Just to report to the public library. - -Mr. BALL. After that. Did you receive a report? - -Mr. McDONALD. After I was satisfied that this teenager that had run -into the library didn't fit the description, I went back to my squad -car, put my shotgun back in the rack. Just as I got into the squad car, -it was reported that a suspect was seen running into the Texas Theatre, -231 West Jefferson. - -So I reported to that location Code 3. This is approximately seven -blocks from the library, seven blocks west. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go down there with your partner? - -Mr. McDONALD. No, sir; I had let my partner out on arrival; my first -arrival in the 400 block. - -Mr. BALL. He was on foot? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; I didn't see him any more that day. - -Mr. BALL. You went down to the Texas Theatre? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And that is what address? - -Mr. McDONALD. 231 West Jefferson. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do? - -Mr. McDONALD. Well, when I got to the front of the theater there was -several police cars already at the scene, and I surmised that officers -were already inside the theater. - -So I decided to go to the rear, in the alley, and seal off the rear. I -parked my squad car. I noticed there were three or four other officers -standing outside with shotguns guarding the rear exits. There were -three other officers at the rear door. I joined them. We walked into -the rear exit door over the alley. - -Mr. BALL. What were their names? - -Mr. McDONALD. Officer Hawkins, T. A. Hutson, and C. T. Walker. And -as we got inside the door, we were met by a man that was in civilian -clothes, a suit, and he told us that the man that acted suspiciously as -he ran into the theater was sitting downstairs in the orchestra seats, -and not in the balcony. He was sitting at the rear of the theater alone. - -Officer Walker and I went to the exit curtains that is to the left of -the movie screen. I looked into the audience. I saw the person that the -shoe store salesman had pointed out to us. - -Mr. BALL. Were the lights on or off? - -Mr. McDONALD. The lights were up, and the movie was playing at this -time. - -Mr. BALL. And could you see to the rear of the theater? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You could see the man. Did the civilian point out to you the -man in one of the rear seats? - -Mr. McDONALD. He didn't point out personally. He was pointing out the -suspect to another officer with him on the right of the stage, just -right of the movie screen. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do then? - -Mr. McDONALD. Well, after seeing him, I noticed the other people in -the theater--there was approximately 10 or 15 other people seated -throughout the theater. There were two men sitting in the center, about -10 rows from the front. - -I walked up the left center aisle into the row behind these two men, -and Officer C. T. Walker was behind me. When I got to these two men, -I told them to get on their feet. They got up. I searched them for a -weapon. - -I looked over my shoulder and the suspect that had been pointed out to -me. He remained seated without moving, just looking at me. - -Mr. BALL. Why did you frisk these two men in the center of the theater? - -Mr. McDONALD. I wanted to make sure that I didn't pass anything or miss -anybody. I wanted to make sure I didn't overlook anybody or anything. - -Mr. BALL. And you still kept your eye on the suspect? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. He was to my back. I was looking over my -shoulder at him. - -Mr. BALL. Was he sitting nearest the right or the left aisle as you -came in? - -Mr. McDONALD. The right center aisle. He was in the second seat. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do then? - -Mr. McDONALD. After I was satisfied that these two men were not armed -or had a weapon on them, I walked out of this row, up to the right -center aisle toward the suspect. And as I walked up there, just at a -normal gait, I didn't look directly at him, but I kept my eye on him -and any other persons. And to my left was another man and I believe a -woman was with him. But he was further back than the suspect. - -And just as I got to the row where the suspect was sitting, I stopped -abruptly, and turned in and told him to get on his feet. He rose -immediately, bringing up both hands. He got this hand about shoulder -high, his left hand shoulder high, and he got his right hand about -breast high. He said, "Well, it is all over now." - -As he said this, I put my left hand on his waist and then his hand went -to the waist. And this hand struck me between the eyes on the bridge of -the nose. - -Mr. BALL. Did he cock his fist? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; knocking my cap off. - -Mr. BALL. Which fist did he hit you with? - -Mr. McDONALD. His left fist. - -Mr. BALL. What happened then? - -Mr. McDONALD. Well, whenever he knocked my hat off, any normal reaction -was for me to go at him with this hand. - -Mr. BALL. Right hand? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes. I went at him with this hand, and I believe I struck -him on the face, but I don't know where. And with my hand, that was on -his hand over the pistol. - -Mr. BALL. Did you feel the pistol? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Which hand was--was his right hand or his left hand on the -pistol? - -Mr. McDONALD. His right hand was on the pistol. - -Mr. BALL. And which of your hands? - -Mr. McDONALD. My left hand, at this point. - -Mr. BALL. And had he withdrawn the pistol---- - -Mr. McDONALD. He was drawing it as I put my hand. - -Mr. BALL. From his waist? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What happened then? - -Mr. McDONALD. Well, whenever I hit him, we both fell into the seats. -While we were struggling around there, with this hand on the gun---- - -Mr. BALL. Your left hand? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. Somehow I managed to get this hand in the -action also. - -Mr. BALL. Your right hand? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. Now, as we fell into the seats, I called out, -"I have got him," and Officer T. A. Hutson, he came to the row behind -us and grabbed Oswald around the neck. And then Officer C. T. Walker -came into the row that we were in and grabbed his left arm. And Officer -Ray Hawkins came to the row in front of us and grabbed him from the -front. - -By the time all three of these officers had got there, I had gotten my -right hand on the butt of the pistol and jerked it free. - -Mr. BALL. Had you felt any movement of the hammer? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. When this hand--we went down into the seats. - -Mr. BALL. When your left hand went into the seats, what happened? - -Mr. McDONALD. It felt like something had grazed across my hand. I felt -movement there. And that was the only movement I felt. And I heard a -snap. I didn't know what it was at the time. - -Mr. BALL. Was the pistol out of his waist at that time? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know any way it was pointed? - -Mr. McDONALD. Well, I believe the muzzle was toward me, because the -sensation came across this way. To make a movement like that, it would -have to be the cylinder or the hammer. - -Mr. BALL. Across your left palm? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. And my hand was directly over the pistol in -this manner. More or less the butt. But not on the butt. - -Mr. BALL. What happened when you jerked the pistol free? - -Mr. McDONALD. When I jerked it free, I was down in the seats with -him, with my head, some reason or other, I don't know why, and when I -brought the pistol out, it grazed me across the cheek here, and I put -it all the way out to the aisle, holding it by the butt. I gave the -pistol to Detective Bob Carroll at that point. - -Mr. BALL. Grazed your left cheek? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Scratched--noticeable scratch? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; about a 4-inch scratch just above the eye to -just above the lip. - -Mr. BALL. Then what happened after that? - -Mr. McDONALD. Well, the officers that had come to my aid started -handcuffing him and taking him out of the theater. - -Mr. BALL. What did he say--anything? - -Mr. McDONALD. Well, he was cursing a little bit and hollering police -brutality, for one thing. - -Mr. BALL. What words did he use? - -Mr. McDONALD. I couldn't recall the exact words. It was just mixed up -words, people hollering and screaming when they get arrested. - -Mr. BALL. What did he say about police brutality? - -Mr. McDONALD. One thing, "Don't hit me any more." I remember that. - -Mr. BALL. Did somebody hit him? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; I guess they did. - -Mr. BALL. Who hit him, do you know? - -Mr. McDONALD. No, sir; I don't, other than myself. - -Mr. BALL. You know you hit him? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did you go with them outside? - -Mr. McDONALD. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do? - -Mr. McDONALD. I was looking for my hat and flashlight. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go downtown with them? - -Mr. McDONALD. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Later you went downtown? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And did you put a mark on the revolver? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. BALL. And did you look at the ammunition in the revolver, the six -rounds in the cylinder? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you notice anything unusual about any one of them? - -Mr. McDONALD. I noticed on the primer of one of the shells it had an -indentation on it, but not one that had been fired or anything--not -that strong of an indentation. - -Mr. BALL. We have here Exhibit 143 for identification. Do you know -whether or not this is the revolver that you took from the man that you -arrested? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; this is it. I found the mark here. - -Mr. BALL. You found your mark? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. What mark is it? - -Mr. McDONALD. I marked the initial "M". - -Mr. BALL. Where? - -Mr. McDONALD. Right here, on this steel plate. - -Mr. BALL. Of the butt? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Let the record show the witness is pointing to a point on -the steel plate directly below the screw on the butt. - -Mr. BALL. How many cartridges were in the cylinder? - -Mr. McDONALD. Six, fully loaded. - -Mr. BALL. I will show you four that are marked as--we will give these -four an exhibit number. Do you know whether or not they were shells -similar to that? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; they were .38 caliber. Now, I didn't mark all -of these shells, myself. - -Mr. BALL. Did you mark any of them? - -Mr. McDONALD. I recall marking one. - -Mr. BALL. The four cartridges, the witness is examining now we will -mark collectively as Commission Exhibit 518. - -(The articles referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 518 for -identification.) - -Mr. BALL. And there are two cartridges that have been marked as -Commission Exhibit 145 that the witness is also examining. Now, on -one of the cartridges that have come from Commission's Exhibit 145, -consisting of two cartridges, one of these you identify as a cartridge -with a dent in it? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How can you tell this? - -Mr. McDONALD. From the center of this--of the primer there--it is a -small indentation, and some of the metal is blurred or not polished. - -Mr. BALL. And your mark is on one of these cartridges? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I will show you an Exhibit 519. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 519 for -identification.) - -Mr. BALL. Is that a picture of the theatre? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And can you mark on there the seat in which the man was -seated who was the suspect? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Put an arrow down to that seat. Did you see Oswald later that -evening? - -Mr. McDONALD. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him again? - -Mr. McDONALD. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. When you saw Oswald, was he bloody any? - -Mr. McDONALD. Afterwards? - -Mr. BALL. Well, when he was being taken from the theatre. Was he bloody? - -Mr. McDONALD. No, sir; I didn't see any blood. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't? - -Mr. McDONALD. Because whenever they took him, they took him directly -out. - -Mr. BALL. And you never saw him again? - -Mr. McDONALD. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What was he wearing at that time? - -Mr. McDONALD. At the time he was wearing a dark brown shirt and a -T-shirt and dark trousers. - -Mr. BALL. A dark brown shirt, a T-shirt, and dark trousers? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I will show you Commission 150. Does that look anything like -the color of the shirt he was wearing? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I would like to at this time offer all exhibits up to 519 in -evidence. - -Senator COOPER. They will be admitted in evidence. - -(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission -Exhibits Nos. 518 and 519 were received in evidence.) - -Mr. BALL. Did you notice where the pistol was concealed on this man's -person? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. It was under his right waist band, right side. - -Mr. BALL. Was it under the shirt? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; it was underneath the shirt. - -Mr. BALL. Underneath the shirt? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. I would like to correct that, and say it was -underneath the brown shirt that he had on. Not underneath the T-shirt. - -The CHAIRMAN. It was not in a holster? - -Mr. McDONALD. No, sir; no holster at all. - -Mr. BALL. Were--was there an FBI agent there? - -Mr. McDONALD. I don't know, sir. I was told he was there, but I don't -know. - -Mr. BALL. The only people that you saw were---- - -Mr. McDONALD. The ones I named there. - -Mr. BALL. Dallas Police Department men? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. - -Senator COOPER. Who was it that pointed out to you the suspect when you -entered the theatre? - -Mr. McDONALD. I learned his name later. - -Senator COOPER. Did some person there point out to you, though, this -man sitting in the row whom you later arrested? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. He was a shoestore salesman. His name was -Brewer. He was the one that met us at the rear exit door and said that -he saw this person run into the Texas Theatre. - -Senator COOPER. Did you hear him say that? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. And have you seen him since? - -Mr. McDONALD. No, sir. - -Senator COOPER. But somebody has identified him to you? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. We will examine him next week, sir. - -Senator COOPER. May I ask--if the suspect was pointed out to you, why -was it you did not go directly to him, but you searched other persons? - -Mr. McDONALD. Well, usually on information of that sort, you have to -weigh it a little bit to make sure you get the right person. He could -have been mistaken. If a suspect was in that theatre, I wanted to make -sure I got him, and not overlook him. - -Senator COOPER. You said, though, that before you went into the -theatre, where the seats were located, that a man pointed out to you a -person who he claimed was the suspect. - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; he said that that was the man that had acted -suspiciously in running into the theatre. - -Senator COOPER. That was the man that was identified to you? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Then, if he was the man identified to you, why did -you stop and search these two men before you got to the man you later -arrested? - -Mr. McDONALD. Well, I wanted to make sure he was right. - -Senator COOPER. Was it your purpose to search everybody in there? - -Mr. McDONALD. It was my intention--everybody I came to. - -Senator COOPER. Were these the first two that you did search? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; they were the closest ones to me. - -Senator COOPER. They were sitting in front of the man you later -arrested? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; they were sitting about 10 rows in front of him. - -Senator COOPER. At the time you were searching them, you could see the -other man that you later arrested? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. What did he do? - -Mr. McDONALD. Just sat in his seat, with his hands in his lap, watching -me. - -Senator COOPER. Were there any other police officers in his vicinity? - -Mr. McDONALD. There were police officers in the balcony, and police -officers in the aisle, or in the lobby, you might call it--not in the -theatre, except for the other three that I named. - -Senator COOPER. You are the only one in the theatre? - -Mr. McDONALD. Well, there was the other three officers that accompanied -me through the rear exit door. Officer Walker went through the curtains -with me, and Officers Hawkins and Hutson was on the stage with the man -that was identifying the suspect. - -Senator COOPER. Then when you told the man you arrested to stand up did -he immediately pull his pistol out? - -Mr. McDONALD. No, sir; he stood up and started raising his hands, -"Well, it is all over now." But in my opinion, it was an act of giving -up or surrendering. It was just natural that my hand went to his waist -for a weapon, which was my intent anyway, whether he raised his hands -or not. I didn't command him to raise his hands or anything. It was -just a reaction of his. - -Senator COOPER. Did he hit you with the pistol? - -Mr. McDONALD. No, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Did he point it towards you? - -Mr. McDONALD. I don't know what position the gun was pointed out, -whenever my hand was on it, because we were both grappling around -there. But, as I say, the top of my hand was over on top of the pistol. - -Senator COOPER. To whom did you turn over the possession of the pistol? - -Mr. McDONALD. Detective Bob Carroll. He had come into the aisle. -Whenever I hollered, "I got him" immediately I was swarmed by officers. - -Senator COOPER. Did you mark the pistol at that time before you turned -it over? - -Mr. McDONALD. No, sir; I marked it at the police station. - -Senator COOPER. But you recognized it then as the same pistol you had -identified today? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. That is all. - -The CHAIRMAN. Officer, you were in uniform that day? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Did the blow he gave you on your nose leave any mark? - -Mr. McDONALD. Well, for 2 days I had some swelling. It didn't break the -skin or anything. Some of the force was taken by my top. It hit the -bill of my cap and my nose. - -The CHAIRMAN. And the scratch from the corner of your eye down to the -corner of your mouth came from the pistol? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. As I was taking the pistol away, clearing it -from his body. Yes, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. I think that is all. We are very glad you are able to be -with us today. - -Mr. BALL. There is one thing. - -I have marked an exhibit, 520. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 520 for -identification and received in evidence.) - -Mr. BALL. As he said he had not seen Oswald since, and I know this was -taken--but I would like to ask him one question with reference to 520 -for identification, and we will later provide an identification, proper -identification for it. - -Does that look like the man that you arrested in the Texas Theatre that -day? - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And does it look like--well, of course, he had a shirt over -that T-shirt. - -Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. - -The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, officer. We are glad you were able -to be with us. - -(Whereupon, at 4:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -_Thursday, March 26, 1964_ - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. HELEN MARKHAM, WILLIAM W. SCOGGINS, MRS. JEANETTE -DAVIS, AND TED CALLAWAY - -The President's Commission met at 9:10 a.m. on March 26, 1964, at 200 -Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. - -Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Gerald -R. Ford, and Allen W. Dulles, members. - -Also present were Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel; David W. Belin, -assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Charles Murray, -observer; and Waggoner Carr, attorney general of Texas. - - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. HELEN MARKHAM - -The CHAIRMAN. The purpose of the session of the Commission is for the -purpose of taking testimony on the assassination of President Kennedy, -and it is our information that you have some evidence concerning it and -we want to ask you some questions concerning it. You are willing to -testify, are you? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Do all I can. - -The CHAIRMAN. All right. Will you stand up and be sworn, please? - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission -will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help -you God? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I do. - -The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated. - -Mr. Ball will ask you the questions. - -Mr. BALL. Mrs. Markham, what is your address? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. 328 East Ninth. - -Mr. BALL. In Dallas, Tex.? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you born, Mrs. Markham? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Where was I born? Dallas. - -Mr. BALL. The Commission would like to know something of your past life -and experience, where you were born and your education so I will just -ask you a few questions like that. - -Take it easy, this is just---- - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I am very shook up. - -Mr. BALL. This is a very informal little conference here. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, do you want me to tell you about my life? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. Just tell us briefly where you were born and where you -went to school and things of that kind. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I was born in Dallas, Dallas County. My father was a -farmer. I was very small when my mother died, I was 6 years old; and my -brothers and I were separated which they were put in the State orphans -home, and I went to live with my aunt. - -Mr. DULLES. Are your brothers older or younger? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I have one older than I. And I went to live with my aunt -and uncle in Grand Prairie. I went to Grand Prairie school. - -Mr. BALL. How far did you go through school? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Eighth grade. - -Mr. BALL. Then did you go to work? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I got married. I got married. - -Mr. BALL. How long were you married? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Me---- - -Mr. BALL. I understand you are not married at the present time? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No. I am not married. I would have been married 25 years -this past July. - -Mr. BALL. Were you a housewife for a while while you were married? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I was. - -Mr. BALL. How many years? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Let me see, about 8 years. - -Mr. BALL. Did you have any children? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I did. - -Mr. BALL. How many children did you have? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, I have five children. - -Mr. BALL. Do they live with you now or what? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I have one son who stays with me. - -Mr. BALL. What has been your work most of your life since you were -divorced, what kind of work have you done? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Waitress work. - -Mr. BALL. You have done waitress work? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where do you work now? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Eat Well Restaurant, 1404 Main Street, Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. BALL. Were you working there on November 22, 1963? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I was. - -Mr. BALL. What hours did you work? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I was due at work from 2:30 in the evening until 10:30 at -night. - -Mr. BALL. Straight shift? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you leave your home some time that morning to go to work? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. That evening? - -Mr. BALL. Morning. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. That morning? - -Mr. BALL. You left your home to go to work at some time, didn't you, -that day? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. At one. - -Mr. BALL. One o'clock? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I believe it was a little after 1. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you intend to catch the bus? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. On Patton and Jefferson. - -Mr. BALL. Patton and Jefferson is about a block south of Patton and -10th Street, isn't it? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I think so. - -Mr. BALL. Well, where is your home from Patton and Jefferson? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I had came--I come one block, I had come one block from -my home. - -Mr. BALL. You were walking, were you? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I came from 9th to the corner of 10th Street. - -Mr. BALL. And you were walking toward Jefferson? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Tenth Street runs the same direction as Jefferson, doesn't it? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. It runs in a generally east and west direction? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And Patton runs north and south? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; up and down this way. - -Mr. BALL. So you were walking south toward Jefferson? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You think it was a little after 1? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I wouldn't be afraid to bet it wasn't 6 or 7 minutes -after 1. - -Mr. BALL. You know what time you usually get your bus, don't you? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. 1:15. - -Mr. BALL. So it was before 1:15? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, it was. - -Mr. BALL. When you came to the corner of Patton and 10th Street--first -of all, what side of the street were you walking on? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Now you have got me mixed up on all my streets. I was on -the opposite of where this man was. - -Mr. BALL. Well, you were walking along the street---- - -Mrs. MARKHAM. On the street. - -Mr. BALL. On Patton, you were going toward Jefferson? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And you were on the right- or left-hand side of the street as -you were walking south? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. That would be on the left. - -Mr. BALL. Your right. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, it would be right. - -Mr. BALL. Right-hand side, wouldn't it? When you came to the corner did -you have to stop before you crossed 10th Street? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I did. - -Mr. BALL. Why? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. On account the traffic was coming. - -Mr. BALL. And you stopped there on the corner? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. That would be the northwest corner, wouldn't it? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Northwest corner. - -Mr. BALL. Is that right? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I believe it is. I believe it is the northwest corner. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see any man walking at that time? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I seen this man on the opposite side, across the -street from me. He was almost across Patton Street. - -Mr. BALL. Almost across Patton? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Walking in what direction? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I guess this would be south. - -Mr. BALL. Along 10th, east? Was it along 10th? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Walking away from you, wasn't he? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. He was walking up 10th, away from me. - -Mr. BALL. To your left? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, he was on the opposite side of the street to me -like that. - -Mr. BALL. Had he reached the curb yet? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Almost ready to get up on the curb. - -Mr. BALL. What did you notice then? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, I noticed a police car coming. - -Mr. BALL. Where was the police car when you first saw it? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. He was driving real slow, almost up to this man, well, -say this man, and he kept, this man kept walking, you know, and the -police car going real slow now, real slow, and they just kept coming -into the curb, and finally they got way up there a little ways up, -well, it stopped. - -Mr. BALL. The police car stopped? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What about the man? Was he still walking? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. The man stopped. - -Mr. BALL. Then what did you see the man do? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I saw the man come over to the car very slow, leaned and -put his arms just like this, he leaned over in this window and looked -in this window. - -Mr. BALL. He put his arms on the window ledge? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. The window was down. - -Mr. BALL. It was? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Put his arms on the window ledge? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. On the ledge of the window. - -Mr. BALL. And the policeman was sitting where? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. On the driver's side. - -Mr. BALL. He was sitting behind the wheel? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Was he alone in the car? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Then what happened? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, I didn't think nothing about it; you know, the -police are nice and friendly, and I thought friendly conversation. -Well, I looked, and there were cars coming, so I had to wait. Well, in -a few minutes this man made---- - -Mr. BALL. What did you see the policeman do? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. See the policeman? Well, this man, like I told you, put -his arms up, leaned over, he--just a minute, and he drew back and he -stepped back about two steps. Mr. Tippit---- - -Mr. BALL. The policeman? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. The policeman calmly opened the car door, very slowly, -wasn't angry or nothing, he calmly crawled out of this car, and I still -just thought a friendly conversation, maybe disturbance in the house, I -did not know; well, just as the policeman got in---- - -Mr. BALL. Which way did he walk? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Towards the front of the car. And just as he had gotten -even with the wheel on the driver's side---- - -Mr. BALL. You mean the left front wheel? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; this man shot the policeman. - -Mr. BALL. You heard the shots, did you? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Three. - -Mr. BALL. What did you see the policeman do? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. He fell to the ground, and his cap went a little ways out -on the street. - -Mr. BALL. What did the man do? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. The man, he just walked calmly, fooling with his gun. - -Mr. BALL. Toward what direction did he walk? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Come back towards me, turned around, and went back. - -Mr. BALL. Toward Patton? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; towards Patton. He didn't run. It just didn't -scare him to death. He didn't run. When he saw me he looked at me, -stared at me. I put my hands over my face like this, closed my eyes. I -gradually opened my fingers like this, and I opened my eyes, and when I -did he started off in kind of a little trot. - -Mr. BALL. Which way? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Sir? - -Mr. BALL. Which way? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Towards Jefferson, right across that way. - -Mr. DULLES. Did he have the pistol in his hand at this time? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. He had the gun when I saw him. - -Mr. BALL. Did you yell at him? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. When I pulled my fingers down where I could see, I got my -hand down, he began to trot off, and then I ran to the policeman. - -Mr. BALL. Before you put your hands over your eyes, before you put your -hand over your eyes, did you see the man walk towards the corner? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What did he do? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, he stared at me. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I didn't do anything. I couldn't. - -Mr. BALL. Didn't you say something? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, I couldn't. - -Mr. BALL. Or yell or scream? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I could not. I could not say nothing. - -Mr. BALL. You looked at him? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You looked at him? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. He looked wild. I mean, well, he did to me. - -Mr. BALL. And you say you saw him fooling with his gun? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. He had it in his hands. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see what he was doing with it? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. He was just fooling with it. I didn't know what he was -doing. I was afraid he was fixing to kill me. - -Mr. BALL. How far away from the police car do you think you were on the -corner when you saw the shooting? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, I wasn't too far. - -Mr. BALL. Can you estimate it in feet? Don't guess. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I would just be afraid to say how many feet because I am -a bad judgment on that. - -Mr. BALL. When you looked at the man, though, when he came toward the -corner, you were standing on one corner, were you? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where was he standing with reference to the other corner? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. After he had shot---- - -Mr. BALL. When he looked at you. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. After he had shot the policeman? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. He was standing almost even to that curb, not very far -from the curb, from the sidewalk. - -Mr. BALL. Across the street from you? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did he look at you? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And did you look at him? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I sure did. - -Mr. BALL. That was before you put your hands over your eyes? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; and he kept fooling with his gun, and I slapped -my hands up to my face like this. - -Mr. BALL. And then you ran to the policeman? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. After he ran off. - -Mr. BALL. In what hand did he have his gun, do you know, when he fired -the shots? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Sir, I believe it was his right. I am not positive -because I was scared. - -Mr. BALL. When he came down the street towards you, in what hand did he -have his gun? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. He had it in both of them. - -Mr. BALL. He had it in both of them? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. When he went towards Jefferson you say he went at sort of a -trot? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did he cross Patton? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Were there many other, or other people in the block at that -time, or were you there with Officer Tippit almost alone? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I was out there, I didn't see anybody. I was there alone -by myself. - -Mr. DULLES. I see. You didn't see anybody else in the immediate -neighborhood? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No; not until everything was over--I never seen anybody -until I was at Mr. Tippit's side. I tried to save his life, which was I -didn't know at that time I couldn't do something for him. - -Mr. DULLES. Mr. Tippit, Officer Tippit, didn't say anything to you? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. He tried to. - -Mr. DULLES. He tried to? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. But he didn't succeed? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, I couldn't understand. I was screaming and hollering -and I was trying to help him all I could, and I would have. I was with -him until they put him in the ambulance. - -Mr. BALL. Did you make an estimate of how far you were from this man -with the gun when he came--after the shooting, and when he came down to -the corner, did you make an estimate of that? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No. To anyone---- - -Mr. BALL. We measured it the other day. We were out there, weren't we? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Now I couldn't tell you how many feet or nothing because -I have never had no occasions to measure that. - -Mr. DULLES. Was it further than this table, the length of this table? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. It was across the street. - -Mr. DULLES. Across the street. It was two or three times the length of -this table? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Across from the street. That was too close. - -Mr. BALL. We have a map coming from the FBI. We thought it would be -here this morning. - -Mrs. Markham, you were taken to the Police Department, weren't you? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Immediately. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Later that day they had a showup you went to? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. A lineup? - -Mr. BALL. A lineup. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. How many men were in the lineup? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I believe there were, now I am not positive, I believe -there were three besides this man. - -Mr. BALL. That would be four people altogether? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I believe that is correct. - -Mr. BALL. Were they of anywhere near similar build or size or coloring? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, they were all about the same height. - -Mr. BALL. Who were you in the lineup room with? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Who was I in the room where they had this man? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Policemen. - -Mr. BALL. More than one? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. The room was full. - -Mr. BALL. It was. In this lineup room, the room was full of policemen. -Weren't there just one or two men with you? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. One or two with me, but I don't know who they were. - -Mr. BALL. But there were other officers? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. There were all policemen sitting in the back of me, and -aside of me. - -Mr. BALL. In this room? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. They were doing something. - -Mr. BALL. Before you went into this room were you shown a picture of -anyone? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I was not. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see any television? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I did not. - -Mr. BALL. Did a police officer say anything to you before you went in -there, to tell you---- - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. That he thought "We had the right man," or something of that -sort? Anything like that? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. No statement like that? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did anybody tell you that the man you were looking for would -be in a certain position in the lineup, or anything like that? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now when you went into the room you looked these people over, -these four men? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you recognize anyone in the lineup? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You did not? Did you see anybody--I have asked you that -question before--did you recognize anybody from their face? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. From their face, no. - -Mr. BALL. Did you identify anybody in these four people? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I didn't know nobody. - -Mr. BALL. I know you didn't know anybody, but did anybody in that -lineup look like anybody you had seen before? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No. I had never seen none of them, none of these men. - -Mr. BALL. No one of the four? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No one of them. - -Mr. BALL. No one of all four? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Was there a number two man in there? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two is the one I picked. - -Mr. BALL. Well, I thought you just told me that you hadn't---- - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I thought you wanted me to describe their clothing. - -Mr. BALL. No. I wanted to know if that day when you were in there if -you saw anyone in there---- - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two. - -Mr. BALL. What did you say when you saw number two? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, let me tell you. I said the second man, and they -kept asking me which one, which one. I said, number two. When I said -number two, I just got weak. - -Mr. BALL. What about number two, what did you mean when you said number -two? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two was the man I saw shoot the policeman. - -Mr. BALL. You recognized him from his appearance? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I asked--I looked at him. When I saw this man I wasn't -sure, but I had cold chills just run all over me. - -Mr. BALL. When you saw him? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. When I saw the man. But I wasn't sure, so, you see, I -told them I wanted to be sure, and looked at his face is what I was -looking at, mostly is what I looked at, on account of his eyes, the way -he looked at me. So I asked them if they would turn him sideways. They -did, and then they turned him back around, and I said the second, and -they said, which one, and I said number two. So when I said that, well, -I just kind of fell over. Everybody in there, you know, was beginning -to talk, and I don't know, just---- - -Mr. BALL. Did you recognize him from his clothing? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. He had on a light short jacket, dark trousers. I looked -at his clothing, but I looked at his face, too. - -Mr. BALL. Did he have the same clothing on that the man had that you -saw shoot the officer? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. He had these dark trousers on. - -Mr. BALL. Did he have a jacket or a shirt? The man that you saw shoot -Officer Tippit and run away, did you notice if he had a jacket on? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. He had a jacket on when he done it. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of a jacket, what general color of jacket? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. It was a short jacket open in the front, kind of a -grayish tan. - -Mr. BALL. Did you tell the police that? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I did. - -Mr. BALL. Did any man in the lineup have a jacket on? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I can't remember that. - -Mr. BALL. Did this number two man that you mentioned to the police have -any jacket on when he was in the lineup? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did he have on? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. He had on a light shirt and dark trousers. - -(Representative Ford is now in the Commission hearing room.) - -Mr. BALL. Did you recognize the man from his clothing or from his face? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Mostly from his face. - -Mr. BALL. Were you sure it was the same man you had seen before? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I am sure. - -Mr. BALL. Now, what time of day was it that you saw this man in the -lineup? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I would say it was four, a little after. - -Mr. BALL. That was four in the afternoon? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I was so upset I couldn't even tell you the time. In -fact, I wasn't interested in the time. - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask just one question? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. You referred to his eyes; they were rather striking. Can -you give any impression of how his eyes looked to you? I realize that -is a very vague question. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. He looked wild. They were glassy looking, because I -could see---- - -Mr. DULLES. He had no glasses on? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No. When we looked at each other, he just stared, just -like that. I just don't know. I just seen him--I would know the man -anywhere, I know I would. - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you. - -Mr. BALL. I have here an exhibit, Commission Exhibit 162, a jacket. Did -you ever see this before? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I did not. - -Mr. BALL. Does it look like, anything like, the jacket the man had on? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. It is short, open down the front. But that jacket it is a -darker jacket than that, I know it was. - -Mr. BALL. You don't think it was as light a jacket as that? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, it was darker than that, I know it was. At that -moment I was so excited---- - -Mr. BALL. I show you a shirt here, which is Exhibit 150. Did you ever -see a shirt the color of this? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. The shirt that this man had, it was a lighter looking -shirt than that. - -Mr. BALL. The man who shot Tippit? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; I think it was lighter. - -Mr. BALL. All right. I have some pictures here that I would like to -show you. I have Exhibits 521 and 522, which have been marked as -Exhibits. Here is one picture, 521. Do you recognize that as the sign -down? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. This is the corner of Patton and 10th. - -Mr. BALL. Patton and 10th. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. This is on the corner of Patton and 10th. - -Mr. BALL. Yes. Was the man anywhere near that corner when you saw him? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, he was. - -Mr. BALL. After the shooting? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; he was. - -Mr. BALL. All right. Now, take this pen and put an X as to the point -when he looked at you and you looked at him. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. He was right along here. - -Mr. BALL. Put an X. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't know. I am too nervous. - -Mr. BALL. At the time the man was standing at X in this picture, at -this location, which is shown in 521, where were you? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I was on the opposite corner, across over here, like this. - -Mr. BALL. Were you as close to the curb as--were you close to the curb -at that time? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I was. - -Mr. DULLES. Where was the car, where this car is? - -Mr. BALL. No, I have another picture I will show her. I have here -Exhibit 522; do you recognize the white house in the picture? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And the driveway next to it? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Does that show the location of the police car at the time it -stopped? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. That is the big old white house, 404. - -Mrs. BALL. That is right. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. 10th Street, and this driveway and this house. - -Mr. DULLES. Will you give us an idea, Mr. Ball, as to where she said -she was on this picture? Was she over here? - -Mr. BALL. We have a picture. There is a booklet here that has been -prepared by a succession of witnesses. We have a general diagram here -which I will show the witness at this time. - -Mrs. Markham, there is a diagram here which shows 10th Street going in -an easterly and westerly direction, Patton running north and south. - -(Marked Commission Exhibit No. 523 for identification.) - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you understand that? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. This would be the corner I would be at. - -Mr. BALL. No, this would be Patton. This is north and south. Jefferson -is down here. Can you locate yourself? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. This is 10th? - -Mr. BALL. That is 10th. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. And this Patton? - -Mr. BALL. That is right. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I was standing on the corner of 10th and Patton. - -Mr. BALL. That is right. But which corner? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Northeast corner is where I was standing. - -Mr. BALL. Northeast or northwest? This would be northeast and this -would be northwest. Here is where the squad car would be. Right there. -Here is 404. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. It would be this corner then. - -Mr. BALL. Well, that is northeast and that is northwest. Were you -kitty-cornered? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I was kitty-cornered from it like this. - -Mr. BALL. Like that? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Well, this is northwest, this is northeast, southeast, -southwest, and here is the car. We are going down the street now. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. It would be this--that would be on the opposite side. - -Mr. BALL. That is right. Look at a number on that and tell me where you -were standing. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I was standing right at the curb. - -Mr. BALL. Do you see a number? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Number 5. - -Mr. BALL. Number 5 on this diagram would be indicating the place where -you would be standing, is that right? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I was standing on the opposite corner from that. - -Mr. BALL. I know, but I have got to get you to tell me where you were -standing. Picture yourself going down Patton towards Jefferson. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Going down Patton? - -Mr. BALL. You were coming from this direction. Your home was up here. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I was coming down Patton. It would be this corner. - -Mr. BALL. That corner, all right. Take this pen and show your course -down the sidewalk. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Just draw it right on it? - -Mr. BALL. Down to where you stood. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Right on the edge. - -Mr. BALL. Is there a number there that shows where you were? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Near 5, is that right? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. That is the northwest corner? - -Mr. BALL. Northwest corner; that is the northwest corner. Here is a -picture. Do you recognize that? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. That is picture number 3 in the booklet. Does that show where -you were? - -(Marked Commission Exhibit No. 524 for identification.) - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where was the man shot? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Right here. - -Mr. BALL. Put a mark where you first saw him. Mark that A. Then he went -which direction down the street? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. He went this way. - -Mr. BALL. In other words, he went in a direction--draw a line and then -put an arrow showing what direction. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. From here---- - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Right on down the side. - -Mr. BALL. Make a mark and put an arrow. That was the direction he was -walking? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. The police car had not come into sight yet? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. That is right. - -Mr. BALL. Put an X where the police car was when you first saw it, put -an X there and we will mark that B. Now, after the shooting, where was -the man when you looked at him? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. He turned and came back this way. - -Mr. BALL. Where did he stand and look at you? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Right here. - -Mr. BALL. Put a mark there. We will mark that C. Where were you -standing when he was looking at you? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. The same position. - -Mr. BALL. The same position as the girl shown on this picture? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Is that your picture? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. That is you there in that picture? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you stand there for the photographer to show him where -you were standing? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I would like to offer into evidence the diagram in this book, -together with the picture which illustrates the diagram. - -The CHAIRMAN. Under what numbers? - -Mr. BALL. As 523, which is the diagram, and 524, which is the picture. - -The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted. - -(The documents identified as Commission Exhibits Nos. 521-524 were -received in evidence.) - -Mr. BALL. You went out there in picture number 3. Now, Mr. Dulles, I -think this will explain it. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes, Mr. Ball. - -Mr. BALL. I have some other pictures here that might illustrate. Do you -recognize this? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You were here the time the picture was taken? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You told the parties where to put the squad car? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Does this show the place where the police car was when this -happened? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. The place at the arrow? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. It shows a corner. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. On the picture make a mark where the man was when he came -back and looked at you. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. He was a little behind this. - -Mr. BALL. Just make an X there in general. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. That is supposed to be on the sidewalk. - -Mr. BALL. I would like to have this marked as Commission Exhibit 525. -The X marks the position of the man who did the shooting on the corner -after the shooting, and the arrow points to the squad car. Here is -another picture marked 4 in this book which I will mark as Commission -Exhibit 526. Is that you in the picture? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You went out there the day the picture was taken? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Is that where you were standing? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Is that where you were when you saw the shooting? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you move from that place from the time of the shooting -until the time you saw the man on the corner? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. I wonder, Mrs. Markham, if you would repeat for me, I would -like to hear it, and Congressman Ford would like to hear it, the scene -that you saw where the man now known to be Oswald went up and put his -arms on the door of the police car, as I understand it. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. Would you tell that once again. I would like to hear it -again. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. He calmly walked to the car. He wasn't in no hurry. - -Mr. DULLES. May I ask, was he called, were there any words that you -heard? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, I did not. I seen the police car stop. - -Mr. DULLES. You didn't hear the policeman say, "Come here," or anything -of that kind? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No. - -Mr. DULLES. He might have done it, but you didn't hear it? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. That is right. And the man went over to the car, put his -hands on the window---- - -Mr. DULLES. The window was open? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Leaned over like this. - -Mr. DULLES. Let me see. Was that on the right-hand side of the car, or -where the driver was? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. It was on the opposite side of the car. - -Mr. DULLES. Opposite side of the car from the driver, yes. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. The window was down, and I know it was down, I -know, and he put his arms and leaned over, I don't know what they were -talking about, I didn't hear it. Then he stepped back in a few minutes, -stepped back two steps. - -Mr. DULLES. He stepped back two steps from the car? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Just stepped back twice. Mr. Tippit, of course, the -policeman--I didn't know it was Mr. Tippit---- - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. He calmly opened the door. He calmly crawled out like he -wasn't angry. - -Mr. DULLES. Did he have a weapon in his hands? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I didn't see one. - -Mr. DULLES. And what happened? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. He was just calmly walking to the front of the car and -when he got even with the wheel on the driver's side, front, you know, -that man shot him. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you see him draw his revolver? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. He shot him like this. - -Mr. DULLES. I see. - -Mr. BALL. Like this, you mean from the hip or from the waist? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. In the wink of your eye, before you could ever--just -like that. It didn't seem like it bothered him, disturbed him. - -Mr. DULLES. The policeman hadn't made, as far as you could see, any -menacing gestures toward him? He wasn't trying to grab him or anything -of that kind? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No. He was very calm, very. I would say like in slow -motion, you know, like he was getting out to talk with the man, or go -in the house for disturbance or something, I don't know. - -Mr. BALL. He shot across the hood of the car? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Across the hood. - -Mr. BALL. The policeman was in the street, walking in the street around -to the front of the car? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. The policeman then got out on the opposite side of where -Oswald was? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I guess he was coming around. - -Representative FORD. It appeared as though he was walking around the -front of the car? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. He had started around, and then he was going over to the -man. - -Mr. BALL. He had only reached the left front wheel though when he was -shot? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And he fell into the street? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. He fell into the street, his hat fell off his head. He -didn't fall, just clumped down like that. - -Representative FORD. Did the man with the gun move at all as the -officer started to go around the car? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No. He didn't move. I mean, walked back or anything like -that, no, sir. - -Representative FORD. He didn't appear to run? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No. I didn't know anything was going to happen. If I had -I would have kept walking, not walking, running. - -Mr. DULLES. He had walked slowly around the car to meet the other man? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. The policeman was. - -Mr. DULLES. Slow? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Was there a pool of blood where Mr. Tippit fell in the street? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I show you this picture, Exhibit 533 (renumbered as Exhibit -527, see p. 321). Will you look at that picture and tell me whether it -shows the approximate position where Mr. Tippit fell after he was shot? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. He fell right out this way. - -Mr. BALL. Look at the discoloration in the street. Is that anywhere -near where Tippit fell? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. It don't seem to me it was out that far. - -Mr. BALL. It doesn't? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. It seemed like to me it was over this way because he fell -this way. - -Mr. BALL. He fell this way? These people can't see what you are showing -here. Here is the pool of blood. Which way do you think he fell? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. See the wheel would be right down under here, back right -this way. He fell this way. - -Mr. BALL. Into the street? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, and his head was like this, you know, it was laying -like this. - -Mr. DULLES. Is this splotch out here in front of the car the pool of -blood? - -Mr. BALL. Out to the left. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. It seems to me it ought to be here. - -Mr. BALL. But there was a pool of blood? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I will pass this out to the Commissioners. - -Representative FORD. May I ask this, Mr. Ball, the place where you -pointed, where you thought the pool of blood different from where it is -shown on here was only a matter of what, a foot or two? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; just about a little, back a little. It seems -his hat was this way. - -Representative FORD. So it is a difference of a foot or two, at the -most? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. That is right. - -Mr. DULLES. Could you see the blood at this time or just see him fall? -Did you actually see blood? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Did I actually see it, sir? I was there. - -Mr. DULLES. I know you were there. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I was standing over it. - -Mr. DULLES. You were standing right over the officer? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. Just as soon as, just as quick as I could get to -him; and the blood was coming from here like this and like that, in an -oval shape. It did not splutter on his face too much, his mouth. It was -here, coming out here. - -Representative FORD. The blood was? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, just gushes. I had my workshoes in my hand. I laid -them up on the squad car. I had my purse, which I can't remember where -I put it, but this, I had a head scarf around my head, I had my coat on. - -Mr. BALL. I would like to offer all of these into evidence at this -time, up to 526, inclusive. - -The CHAIRMAN. They may be received. - -(The items identified as Commission Exhibits Nos. 525 and 526 were -received in evidence.) - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dulles, will you preside in my absence, please. I -must attend a session of the Court. - -Mr. DULLES. I will, sir. - -(The Chairman left the hearing room at this point.) - -Mr. BALL. Mrs. Markham, the police car, did the police car go beyond -the man who was walking along the sidewalk, or did it stop opposite him? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Almost even with him. - -Mr. BALL. And when the police car stopped, did the man stop? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; and walked over to the policeman. - -Mr. BALL. The police car was going in the same direction as the man? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And caught up with him? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Mrs. Markham, do you know a man named Mark Lane? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I do not. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever hear of the name? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Did not. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to a New York lawyer who says he was from -New York? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to a lawyer who was investigating the case -in behalf of the deceased man, Lee Oswald? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to a man who said he was representing the -mother of Lee Oswald? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You don't remember ever talking to a man named Mark Lane? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. In an appearance before this Commission, a man named Mark -Lane has testified this way. Let me read it to you. That was on -Wednesday, March 4, 1964, Vol. II of a public hearing before this -Commission, page 51. This is what he said: - -"I spoke with the deponent"--he is talking about an affidavit that -you made to the Dallas Police Department--"I spoke with the deponent, -the eyewitness, Helen Louise Markham, and Mrs. Markham told me--Miss -or Mrs., I didn't ask her if she was married--told me she was 100 -feet away from the police car, not the 50 feet which appears in the -affidavit." - -Do you recall ever stating that to Mr. Lane or anyone else? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; no, sir. - -Mr. BALL. He testified: "She gave me a more detailed description of the -man who she said shot Officer Tippit. She said he was short, a little -on the heavy side, and his hair was somewhat bushy." Did you say that -to Mark Lane? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; I don't even know the man. - -Mr. BALL. Or anybody else? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever tell anyone that the man who shot Tippit was -short, a little on the heavy side, and his hair was somewhat bushy? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Was the man, is it your memory now that the man who shot -Tippit was short, a little on the heavy side? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. He wasn't too heavy. - -Mr. BALL. Is it your memory that his hair was bushy? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. It wasn't so bushy. It was, say, windblown or something. -What I mean, he didn't have a lot of hair. - -Mr. BALL. He didn't have a lot of hair? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; that I could see. I don't even know that man; I -never talked to nobody. - -Representative FORD. You didn't talk to him by telephone or any other -means? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. - -Representative FORD. Did you ever get an anonymous phone call from a -person who asked you these questions? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No. - -Mr. BALL. Now, he also says, and he testified as follows: - -"Helen Markham said to me she was taken to the police station on that -same day, that she was very upset. She, of course, had never seen -anyone killed in front of her eyes before, and in the police station -she identified Oswald as the person who had shot Officer Tippit in the -lineup, including three other persons. She said no one pointed Oswald -out to her, and she said she was just shown four people, and she picked -Oswald. She said when he asked her how she could identify him, she said -she was able to identify him because of his clothing, a gray jacket and -dark trousers." - -Did you ever make that statement to him? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I did not, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Or to anyone else? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Not to anybody. - -Mr. BALL. When you identified Oswald--it was the number 2 man--were you -told the number 2 man whom you identified in the lineup? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, I was not. - -Mr. BALL. Were you ever told his name? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No. - -Mr. BALL. Ever told his name later? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Nobody, nobody told me nothing. - -Mr. BALL. Well, the man that you identified as the number 2 man in the -lineup in the police station, you identified him as the man you had -seen shoot Officer Tippit? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I did. - -Mr. BALL. Did you identify him because of his clothing that he had on -at that time in the lineup. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Just like I told you. I mostly looked at his face, his -eyes, and his clothing, too. - -Mr. BALL. He said here you were able to identify him, Mark Lane -testified that you told him you were able to identify him because of -his clothing, a gray jacket. First, did the man in the lineup have a -gray jacket on? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did he have on? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. He had on this light shirt, dark trousers. - -Mr. DULLES. You have considered your answers very carefully, have you, -on this point? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I am doing my best. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes, I know you are, and you are quite sure you never -talked to anyone who purported to be Mr. Lane? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Never in my life. I talked to two men, and this man who -told me he was from Paris, France. He came down on my job. I was scared -to death. I wasn't going to talk to him. I work for a Greek. - -Mr. DULLES. Let's get this a little more clearly, Mrs. Markham. You say -you talked with someone who came from France? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. Did he represent a French newspaper? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. You don't know what newspaper? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No. He told--you see, I didn't understand this man, but -my boss could. - -Mr. DULLES. He came to you in the restaurant? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. And I was scared, which I was scared of everybody. -I was upset and trying to work, too, and he was--he come to me and he -asked for me and, of course, they knew who I was because I was there so -long. - -Mr. DULLES. When was that? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't recall the date. - -Mr. DULLES. Was it 2 or 3 days after the assassination or was it right -after? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. It was quite some time after. - -Mr. DULLES. Some time after? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. A week or more, maybe? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. - -Representative FORD. Can you describe this man? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. He had--he was dark complected, very nice man, black -horn-rimmed glasses, black-headed, and he was build kind of---- - -Mr. DULLES. What did he ask you--excuse me. - -Representative FORD. Was he tall or short, heavy set? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. About medium, I guess. I didn't pay much attention to the -man. - -Representative FORD. Did he have an accent? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, he did. - -Representative FORD. Was it difficult for you to understand him because -of this accent? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. This is what this man told me. He told me--he told -my boss and my boss also told me, my boss stood right beside me. - -Representative FORD. Did he speak in English with an accent? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. But this man told me the Government sent him. - -Representative FORD. Did he identify which government? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. He had--he showed me who he was. He was a news reporter. - -Mr. DULLES. Did he say whether he was a foreigner or an American -citizen? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I can't remember. I was too scared. But he did show me -his identification, his picture and everything. The Government had sent -him to me, which he was coming to Washington. He was supposed to be -here, and then back somewhere in Dallas, I think he told me. - -Mr. DULLES. Could you recall the questions he asked you? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. He just asked me very few questions. This man asked me -about if the police had taken me down to the police station and did I -see anything after I went into the police station, hear any TV, or see -any TV, any radio, newspapers, or anybody talked to me, and I said they -did not. - -Representative FORD. Did your employer listen to the questions and -answers? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, James Gambolis listened to it. - -Mr. DULLES. We will take a moment's recess. - -(A short recess was taken.) - -Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November, 1963, that is the day of the -shooting, did you talk to an FBI agent named Odum? Do you remember? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I talked to some people, men, down at the police station. - -Mr. BALL. That is right. He says that you described the man who shot -Tippit as a white male, about 18, black hair, red complexion, wearing -black shoes, tan jacket, and dark trousers. Do you remember that? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I never said anything about his shoes because I never did -look at his feet. - -Mr. BALL. Did you say about 18? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I said he was young looking. - -Mr. BALL. Did you give that age, 18? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, I don't believe I did. - -Mr. BALL. Did you say he had black hair? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You thought he was black-haired? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, that is what I told him. I thought he was -black-haired. I remember saying that. - -Mr. BALL. Red complexion? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, not red complexioned. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't say that? - -Mr. DULLES. Mrs. Markham, did you say you talked to two persons, one -person whom you are now describing from a foreign newspaper, and one -other? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. Who was the other one with whom you talked? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't recall. He was a newspaper reporter by Life -magazine. - -Mr. DULLES. Life magazine? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. I remember, which they did print the picture in Life -magazine. - -Mr. DULLES. And Life magazine printed what you told them? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. And printed it accurately as far as you recall? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Very little of what I told him did he put in. - -Mr. DULLES. What they put in was accurate more or less? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. - -Representative FORD. It coincided with what you told him? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, just a little old paragraph or two. - -Mr. DULLES. Except for those two persons, you don't recall talking with -anyone about your testimony or your appearance in the lineup? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Just those two? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Just a few more questions, Mrs. Markham. You ran immediately -over to where the police officer was lying in the street? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I did. - -Mr. BALL. Was he alive? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did he say anything? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. He was trying to, but he just couldn't. I just couldn't -make out what he was trying to say. - -Mr. BALL. Did some man come up immediately thereafter? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of a car did he have? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Not immediately. - -Mr. BALL. Soon? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Soon. - -Mr. BALL. In a pickup truck? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. I very frankly remembered this truck, but I remember -it the way it took off. - -Mr. BALL. He stopped though, didn't he? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. That is the man who called over the police radio, wasn't he? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't recall. - -Mr. BALL. What did he look like, the man in the pickup truck? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. This man had a hat on. I thought he was a policeman. - -Mr. BALL. A dark man, looked somewhat Spanish? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't recall. I was screaming and crying and trying to -get help, begging for somebody to help me. - -Mr. BALL. When did you start screaming? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I started screaming by the time I left where I was -standing and screamed plumb across the street. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember what you said? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. "The man has killed a policeman," I remember, "Somebody -help. He has killed him, he has killed him," I was saying that, I was -pulling my hair almost. It is a wonder he did not turn and kill me, -really it was. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Scoggins? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't remember---- - -Mr. BALL. The taxicab driver. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I saw the taxicab driver. - -Mr. BALL. Where was the taxicab? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Parked on Patton. - -Mr. BALL. On Patton? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see the man later, did you see him before the -shooting? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, he was sitting in his cab. - -Mr. BALL. He was. Then you saw him afterward, didn't you? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Those are all the questions I have of this witness. Do you -have something additional? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Believe me, it was just like---- - -Mr. DULLES. I believe Mr. Ford would like to have the witness repeat -what she saw the man, now known as Oswald, do after the shooting. Will -you just repeat that for Congressman Ford? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. After he shot the policeman---- - -Mr. DULLES. After he shot the policeman. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. After he shot the policeman he turned around, came back -around toward Patton Street. He wasn't he didn't seem to be in a no -hurry. I thought he hadn't done anything, and he was fooling with his -gun in his hands, and he seen me, and he stops. - -Mr. DULLES. He stopped? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. When he saw me. That is the reason we were looking at -each other. - -Mr. DULLES. He hadn't seen you before so far as you could tell? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I put my hands over my face and closed my eyes, because I -knew he was going to kill me. I couldn't scream, I couldn't holler. I -froze. - -Mr. DULLES. I think you testified about that then he began to run -slowly. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Then---- - -Mr. DULLES. Was that after he saw you? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; after I put my hands up, and when I had opened my -fingers and my eyes and slowly pulled them down, he was trotting off. - -Mr. DULLES. Trotting off? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. He wasn't out of sight when I started running -to this police car. He was not out of sight. - -Mr. DULLES. You didn't see which way he turned at the end of this run? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No; he cut across like this, across Patton, and went out -like that. - -Mr. DULLES. Like this means to the right or to the left? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. It means to the right, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. To his right, to the man's right, as he was running? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. He ran back, turned and came back down 10th to Patton -Street. He cut across Patton Street like this. - -Mr. BELIN. Heading toward what street? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Toward Jefferson; yes, sir. Then he was still in sight -when I began to scream and holler and run to this police car, well, to -Mr. Tippit. - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you. - -Mr. BALL. Are there any more questions? - -You can be excused, Mrs. Markham. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you have any questions you would like to ask, Mr. -Attorney General? - -Mr. CARR. No; I have not. - -Mr. DULLES. Could you wait for just a moment. We are sorry to detain -you. There is something that might come up with the next witness, and -we might wish to ask you another question. I do not think we will. We -are very grateful to you, Mrs. Markham. - -Mr. BALL. Exhibit previously marked "533," which is the squad car, -Tippit, showing the street and blood spot in the street, I would like -to have marked as "Exhibit 527." It was marked by mistake. - -Mr. DULLES. Is that our last exhibit? - -Mr. BALL. That is our last exhibit, 527 is our last exhibit now. - -(The item identified as Commission Exhibit No. 527 was received in -evidence.) - -Mr. DULLES. You might stand for just a moment, Mr. Scoggins. The -witnesses are sworn before they can give testimony before this -Commission. - -Do you swear, Mr. Scoggins, that the testimony that you will give -before this Commission is the truth, the whole truth, so help you God? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. To the best of my knowledge; yes. - -Mr. DULLES. Be seated, please. - -Mr. Scoggins, the Commission is taking testimony, and the Chief Justice -asked me to preside in his absence, he has to be away in the Court this -morning. - -The purpose of today's hearing is to hear your testimony and that of -certain others who were in the vicinity of the shooting of Officer -Tippit, and we will want your testimony on that particular point this -morning. - -Will you proceed? - -Mr. BALL. Mr. Belin is going to examine this witness. - -Mr. DULLES. Mr. Belin will carry on the examination on behalf of the -Commission. - -Will you proceed please? - - -TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM W. SCOGGINS - -Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. Will you please state your name, sir, for the -record. - -Mr. SCOGGINS. William W. Scoggins. - -Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Scoggins? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. 3138 Alaska. - -Mr. BELIN. In what city and State is that? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Dallas. - -Mr. BELIN. Dallas, Tex.? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. How old a gentleman are you? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Forty-nine. - -Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Taxicab driver, operator. - -Mr. BELIN. For what company? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. The Dallas Transit Co. I drive out of Oak Cliff. - -Mr. BELIN. You drive out of Oak Cliff? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir; Oak Cliff, yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were you born, Mr. Scoggins? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Hillsboro, Hill County. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that in Texas? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school there? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I went most of the time in McLennan County; most of -my schooling was down in McLennan County. - -Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school before you started to -work? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Eighth grade. - -Mr. BELIN. Now what did you do after school? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, while I was going to school, and that time we lived -on a farm, you know, and then after that, well, that would be a hard -problem there. I left home when I was rather young, stayed with some of -my brothers some, and then done odd jobs around for quite a while. My -first job, I guess you might say, would be automobile paint job. - -Mr. BELIN. Automobile paint job? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, New York City. - -Mr. BELIN. New York City. How long did you stay in New York? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Approximately 3 years. - -Mr. BELIN. And then where did you go? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I went back to Texas. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do there? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Done farmwork. - -Mr. BELIN. And about how long did you do farmwork, approximately? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Well now, after--let's see, my life was kind of mixed up. -I have been around quite a while in different places and things. After -I left New York I went to Connecticut to join the CCC camp and stayed -there 3 years. - -Mr. BELIN. CCC camp? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. And then I went back to Texas. - -The first thing I done was open up a cafe down there and operated it -about a year, and from there went to Waco and worked in a cotton mill, -and then I moved back to west Texas to a little town about 18 miles out -of Waco, and lived there, and done farmwork for a couple or 3 years, -and then I moved to Dallas. - -I think late in 1941, and I worked for Newhoff Packers in Dallas for 2 -years, and then I went into the aircraft business and worked for North -American approximately 3 years, and then I went into the contracting -business for about a year, and went to General Dynamics, worked there -approximately 15-1/2 years, and then I have been working for the -company, taxicab company, for a couple of years. - -Mr. BELIN. You have been driving a cab for 2 years? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No, not quite 2 years. - -Mr. BELIN. A little bit less than 2 years? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. A year and 9 months. I don't know exactly when I started. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were you driving your cab in the early part of the -afternoon of November 22, 1963, if you remember? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I picked up a gentleman at Love Field at -approximately 12:35, I would say, and I discharged him at 1 o'clock at -321 North Ewing. - -Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I went around by the Gentlemen's Club which I believe is -125 Patton. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do there? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I pulled up and parked at the corner of Patton and 10th -and went back down to the club. At first, whenever I passed by, one of -the guys hollered at me and asked me did I know the President had been -shot, and I made the remark that I had not heard that one. I found a -place to park and I came back, and he came back there in a couple of -minutes and told me the facts about it. I thought it was some kind of a -joke. - -So I had to go plumb up to the corner of 10th before I could find a -parking place, and I parked right there on the corner and went back and -got me a coke and watched the deal, watched the television. - -Mr. DULLES. Would you speak a little louder, please; I can't quite hear. - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I got me a coke and watched television for a few minutes, -I would say 10, 12, 15 minutes, there, and went out to eat my lunch. - -Mr. DULLES. What were you seeing on television? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. The deal about the President getting assassinated; and -when I got back to my cab and got my lunch, and, well, I noticed a -police car cruising east there on 10th Street. - -Mr. BELIN. Where was your cab parked with relationship to the -intersection of Patton and 10th? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, it was headed north on Patton, facing 10th Street, -on the right-hand side of the street, right close to where the stop -sign had been. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, the right-hand side of the street would be the east or -the west? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. It would be the east side. I was headed north. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Were you on the north side of the intersection or -the south side of the intersection? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. South side. - -Mr. DULLES. How near the intersection were you? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Right near. They had a stop sign there and someone had -had a wreck previously, I don't know, the sign was down. It was laying -there, it had been bent over. - -Representative FORD. Was this a normal stop for you, or how did you -happen to be stopped there? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I just went around just like I say. We can take our -lunch hour anytime, you know; we can call in and say we are going to be -out of service for lunch or for anything we might want to be out for, -and that is what I had done. - -Representative FORD. This was not a regular place where you waited for -calls? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No. You see the way we operate there, just where we -discharge a passenger, then we call in and tell them where we are at on -our radio, and if they have anybody in that vicinity who needs a cab, -they give us their address, you see. Of course, now in the downtown -area we do have stands to operate from, at the hotels, and then we -have some stands at the medical buildings and the depot and the bus -stations; and if we want to pick up there, we can pick up and we don't -need to call in. But if we want to sit there we can call in that we are -in this neighborhood. If they have got someone who has requested a cab, -they give us the address, you see. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, showing you Commission Exhibit 528, I would -like to ask you to state, if you know, what this is. - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir; that is the corner where I was sitting right -here, you see, on 10th. - -Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to something in the front-center part of -the picture. What is that? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. That is the stop sign that had been knocked over. - -Mr. BELIN. That is the knocked-over stop sign? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What intersection is that? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Tenth and Patton. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, we offer in evidence remarked Exhibit 527 and also -Exhibit 528. - -(The items identified as Commission Exhibits Nos. 527 and 528 were -received in evidence.) - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, handing you what has been marked as Commission -Exhibit 523, which purports to be a plat, you see the streets of Patton -Avenue there and East 10th. Do you see any number on that exhibit, -Exhibit 523, which would indicate the approximate location of your car -during the period that you are describing here? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, it looks to me like this number 10. - -Mr. BELIN. You are not pointing to number 10. - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Eleven, isn't it? - -Mr. BELIN. It is 11, and here is 9. - -Mr. SCOGGINS. It looked like a 10 to me. Number 11. - -Mr. BELIN. Number 11 is, you think, where you were with regard to---- - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Within the general area. - -Mr. BELIN. Within the general area of Number 11 on Exhibit 523. - -Now, Mr. Scoggins, you stated you were sitting in your cab as you -stopped at your intersection. You had a coke and your lunch. - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. What were you doing, eating your lunch? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I was in the process of eating it. - -Mr. BELIN. You were in the process? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I had taken one or two bites of my sandwich and drank a -couple of swallows out of my coke. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. DULLES. What time was this, approximately, as far as you can recall? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Around 1:20 in the afternoon. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Will you please state then what happened, what -you saw, what you did, what you heard? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I first seen the police car cruising east. - -Mr. BELIN. About how fast was it cruising? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Not more than 10 or 12 miles a hour, I would say. - -Mr. BELIN. It was going east on what street? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. On Tenth. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Did you see the police car go across right in -front of yours? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he went right down the street. He come from the -west, going east on east Tenth. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I noticed he stopped down there, and I wasn't paying too -much attention to the man, you see, just used to see him every day, but -then I kind of looked down the street, saw this, someone, that looked -to me like he was going west, now, I couldn't exactly say whether he -was going west or was in the process of turning around, but he was -facing west when I saw him. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. SCOGGINS. And he was--he stopped there. - -Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this now. When you first saw this man, had -the police car stopped or not? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he stopped. When I saw he stopped, then I looked -to see why he was stopping, you see, and I saw this man with a -light-colored jacket on. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, you saw a man with a light-colored jacket. With -relation to the police car, was the man east of the police car, west of -the police car, or kind of---- - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Just a little east is the best I can remember. - -Mr. BELIN. He was a little bit east of the police car? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he was just a little bit forward. The police car -headed east and he was a little bit, maybe not more than the front end -of the car. - -Mr. BELIN. You thought the man was at the front end of the car? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; approximately. - -Mr. BELIN. But by that you mean the front wheel or front bumper area? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Was he on the sidewalk? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. At the time I saw him; yes. - -Mr. BELIN. When you first saw him, I believe you said you saw the man's -face, or did you not say that? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I couldn't see the man's face from there. I saw the face -when he passed the cab. - -Mr. BELIN. What led you to believe that he was walking west? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, he was facing west. - -Mr. BELIN. You mean he was facing west when you first saw him? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he was kind of facing that way. - -Mr. BELIN. Was it due west the way the sidewalk was, or was it---- - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; west in relation to the sidewalk. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. Then what did you see the man do? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I saw him turn facing the street, and then I didn't see -him any more after that because he went behind some shrubbery. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see the police officer do anything? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I saw him get out of the police car. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see what side he went out of? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. He got out of the driver's side, left-hand side. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see happen? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Then he took about a step, I would say, or approximately -one or two steps, and then I wasn't really--you know--I went back to my -eating, and about that time I heard the shots. - -Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Three or four, in the neighborhood. They was fast. - -Mr. BELIN. They were fast shots? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; they were fast. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do or say or hear? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Then I saw the man falling, grab his stomach and fall. - -Mr. BELIN. Which man did you see fall? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. The policeman. I was excited when I heard them shots, -and I started to get out--since we went back over there the other day -and reenacted that scene, I must have seen him fall as I was getting -out of my cab, because I got out of the cab, and in the process of -getting out of the cab I seen this guy coming around, so I got out of -sight. I started to cross the street, but I seen I didn't have enough -time to cross the street before he got down there, so I got back behind -the cab, and as he cut across that yard I heard him running into some -bushes, and I looked up and seen him going south on Patton and then -when I jumped back in my cab I called my dispatcher. - -Mr. BELIN. Why did you jump out of your cab first when you heard the -shots? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Because anytime that there is anything going on that is -one thing the cab driver wants to do is to get away from that cab, -because the man is going to try--if he had ever seen the cab, he looked -back over his left shoulder, and I don't think he even seen the cab--he -would have probably jumped in the cab and had me take him somewhere or -maybe shot me, too, you know, and I didn't want to be around the cab -at anytime while he was in the neighborhood, you know, when there was -anything like that going on, or anything, robbery, or anything. - -Mr. BELIN. I believe you said you saw the officer fall. Did you see -where he fell? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he fell right by the side of the front, about, a -little bit forward of the door, right about the door. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you ever later go up and view the officer? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. I went up there, but by the time I got up there the -ambulance had already got there. You see I got my dispatcher and was -telling him about it, just by that time the ambulance got there. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you notice anything in the street to indicate where the -officer fell? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. There was blood there, of course. They picked the man up -by the time I got there, the ambulance did. - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question? You were in touch with your -dispatcher over your radio contact? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. What did you tell your dispatcher? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I told him there had been a policeman shot at 10th and -Patton, and you see they have a number of cars they are talking to, you -know, and I had to holler about three or four times before I got his -attention, and then I seen I wasn't going to get through to him, so I -just hollered there had been a policeman shot at 10th and Patton, and -then they went to talking to me then. - -Mr. DULLES. What did they say to you then? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. The first thing they says is do they need an ambulance, -and I says, "Sure." And they wanted to know the exact location, and I -said right off east of 10th and Patton, and the ambulance was only a -block and a quarter or so from the scene, you see, and they just come -on right around there. - -Mr. DULLES. And this conversation took you a minute or two, would you -estimate? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, a couple of minutes, I would say. It was pretty -close. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, handing you what the Commission reporter has -marked, or what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 527, I ask you to -state if this substance on the street here appears to be anything you -had ever seen before. - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; that appears to be the officer's blood, blood from -the officer. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that located in approximate location to this car in the -same relative position that you saw the blood when you were there, or -is it any different, if you know? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I was kind of excited there, a little bit, and I could be -mistaken, but I was thinking he was a little bit closer to the car than -that. - -Mr. BELIN. You thought he was a little bit closer to the car than that? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. I thought he was, but I could be mistaken. - -Mr. BELIN. Handing you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 529, -which shows a picture of a car and appears to be some kind of a stain -in the street, does that look to you any closer to the car than Exhibit -527, or does that look to be about the same place? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. It looks to be about the same place as that one there -does. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. You thought it was a little bit closer to the -front? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. All right. I thought it was. - -Mr. BELIN. Did the officer fall, did he fall forward or backward in any -way? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. He fell forward. - -Mr. BELIN. He fell forward? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where his head was lying as he fell forward, -if you know? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I wouldn't be sure about that. He kind of fell in a -crumpled manner, I would say. - -Mr. BELIN. When you saw the officer fall, when was the next place -that you saw the man, or did you see him at the same time you saw the -officer fall, the other man? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No. I saw him coming kind of toward me around that cutoff -through there, and he never did look at me. He looked back over his -left shoulder like that, as he went by. It seemed like I could see his -face, his features and everything plain, you see. - -Mr. BELIN. Was he walking or running or trotting? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Kind of loping, trotting. - -Mr. BELIN. Kind of loping or trotting? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Not in too big a hurry. It didn't seem like at first. - -Mr. BELIN. At first not too big a hurry? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he change that at all? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Never did change his pace as long as I saw him. I don't -know where he went after he passed the cab and got down a little piece, -because then I was busy trying to get my dispatcher, and I never did -look and never did get to see him. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he have anything in his hand? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. He had a pistol in his left hand. - -Mr. BELIN. Did the pistol appear to be--did he appear to be doing -anything with the pistol or not? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. He had it, holding it, in his left hand in a manner -that the barrel was up like this, and the stock was down here, curved -back in here. - -Mr. BELIN. Did it look like the gun had been flipped open at all or not? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I wouldn't say. - -Mr. BELIN. You don't know? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No; I don't. - -Mr. DULLES. You said he had it in his left hand? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see where his right hand was? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. He was kind of running, kind of like this, in this manner. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you hear the man say anything? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I heard him mutter something like, "poor damn cop," or -"poor dumb cop." He said that over twice, and the last, I don't know -whether the middle word was "damn" or "dumb," but anyway, he muttered -that twice. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you hear him say any other word or phrase? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you hear anyone else making any noise at about that time? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No; I didn't. Of course, there were people coming up -there, around there, but I didn't--I didn't notice any. - -Mr. BELIN. Recently in Dallas you were asked to go to the scene of the -Tippit shooting to try to reconstruct the positions of the various -people at this time; is that correct? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, yes; I was over there---- - -Mr. BELIN. And you parked your cab in what spot? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. There on Patton, facing 10th at approximately the place I -thought I was parked at, the reasonable area where I thought I was. I -wouldn't say I was exactly on that spot, but within a foot or so. - -Mr. BELIN. Does Exhibit 530 appear to be a picture of your cab at that -point? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. I also hand you Commission Exhibit 531 and ask you if there -is another view of your cab also at that same point? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; it appears to be. - -Mr. BELIN. You were there when those two pictures were taken? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir; I was there whenever they took some picture. I -couldn't swear these were the ones, but I imagine it was. - -Mr. BELIN. These are pictures numbered 7 and 22 in that sequence there. -Mr. Scoggins, at the time of November 22, 1963, were there as many cars -parked along Patton Street as appear to be in these Exhibits 530 and -531? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. There wasn't as many on this side here. - -Mr. BELIN. You are speaking now when you say "This side here," you are -pointing to the east or west side of the street? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. On the west side. - -Mr. BELIN. There weren't as many on the west side? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. There wasn't as many here as where the pickup truck is -setting here. - -Mr. BELIN. That would be down below the second or third car south of -East 10th, is that right. - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; on this other side it was taken up solid, and the -only place I could found is here is the reason I come up here and -parked, because the club is down here at this other end, and I would -have taken the first parking place I found because, you know, the -closest to the club. - -Mr. DULLES. As far as you know, there were no people in these cars that -were parked there? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No; there was no one in those cars. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see any people in any cars parked on either side of -Patton Street? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. None. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, handing you Exhibit 162, have you ever seen -any jacket on any person in that area of East 10th and Patton that -looks familiar to, or looks anything similar to this exhibit, or does -this appear to be lighter or darker than the jacket? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. It appears to be a little lighter, but the sleeves look -familiar all right, the type of sleeve. He had on a jacket, the type of -sleeve of that, but I thought it was a little darker. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether it was a zipper or button jacket or -don't you---- - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No; I couldn't tell you that. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what kind of trousers the man was wearing? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. The best I can remember they was dark, not too dark, and -he had on a light shirt. - -Mr. BELIN. A light shirt? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I wouldn't say it was white, but---- - -Mr. BELIN. Would the shirt be lighter than Exhibit 150 or about the -same color or darker or would Exhibit 150 look anything like the shirt -you thought he was wearing, if you know? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No, I don't, so I couldn't answer that. - -Mr. BELIN. And you say you don't know, or you think this is different -than what he was wearing? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I couldn't say about the shirt. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I just couldn't. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, when you were in Dallas the other day and they -took these pictures, they also tried to take a picture through your car -windows toward the place where the car of Officer Tippit was parked, is -that correct? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where the car of Officer Tippit was parked -on November 22d? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, it was parked approximately between the first and -second houses and across the driveway between the houses, pretty well -across the driveway. - -Mr. BELIN. Was it parked across a driveway? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. As well as I remember, it was. - -Mr. BELIN. Handing you what has been marked Exhibit 522, which purports -to be a picture taken of a squad car, and I don't know if you can see -through the window a little driveway---- - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Does that appear to be the driveway in front of which the -squad car was parked? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. Does that appear to be the two houses between which the -driveway ran? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. This would be the two houses--and the other one I -didn't know. - -Mr. BELIN. We have a magnifying glass here, and I believe with it we -might be able to see the number on that house. Can you see the number -over the doorway of that house? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. 404. - -Mr. BELIN. That would be which street? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. That would be on East 10th, on the south side. - -Mr. BELIN. This appears to be, or does not appear to be, the position -of the car on November 22? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; that appears to be the approximate position; I would -say it was. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, handing you what has been marked Exhibit 532, do you -remember when this picture was taken? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I remember the day. I don't remember the date of it. - -Mr. BELIN. But you remember it was taken? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I remember it was taken. - -Mr. BELIN. Sometime in March of this year? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. You saw the photographer point the camera through the window? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Is this about the view that you had toward the police car on -November 22d? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. As you were eating your lunch? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. And it appears that you can see through one of the windows -there the police car, is that correct? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Was the police car at the time Exhibit 532 was taken, was it -in the approximate same position that the car of Officer Tippit was on -November 22? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I would think so, yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, you saw the police car there? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Was it parked about in front of that driveway? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; I would say in the same area. You know, it may not -be on the same inch. - -Mr. BELIN. Within a foot or two? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you would take Exhibit 523 and see if there is -any number on Exhibit 523 which corresponds to the position of the man -who was walking along East 10th Street, or wherever he was when you -first saw him. - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Approximately where 16 is. - -Mr. BELIN. Yes; you are pointing to the position where the arrow is in -number 16? - -Mr. BALL. Mr. Belin, he didn't see him walking. - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I saw him there. - -Mr. BELIN. I used the word "walking." Pardon me. When you first saw him -he was on point 16. Where did you see him when you next saw him, where -did you see him when he moved? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. When I next saw him he was in the process of running up -10th Street. - -Mr. BELIN. You next saw him after the shooting then? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; I did. - -Mr. BELIN. About where was he on 10th Street when you next saw him? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. He was on the sidewalk when I saw him, about, I would -say, about--I am trying to figure out now--about number 21 or back a -little piece from 21. - -Mr. BELIN. Here is the squad car and 21 would be just east of the squad -car? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. You saw him there? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What was he doing when you saw him in the area of 21 in -Exhibit 523? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. He was proceeding west on 10th and had---- - -Mr. BELIN. All right. I wonder if you would just take this pen and on -Exhibit 523 mark the route that you think this man took. - -Mr. SCOGGINS. This is a sidewalk here. - -Mr. BELIN. That is the sidewalk. - -Mr. SCOGGINS. This is the house back here. - -Mr. BELIN. This is the corner house, this is the second house, this is -the third house, 400, 404, and 410. - -Mr. DULLES. What does that line show, Mr. Belin? - -Mr. BELIN. This is to show the movement of the man from point 21. - -Mr. DULLES. Along the sidewalk going west? - -Mr. BELIN. Yes. - -Mr. SCOGGINS. He ran to the point in the shrubbery. - -Mr. BELIN. Is that as far as you have seen him go? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. You have now marked by ink line commencing on Exhibit 523 to -a point that I will mark is the route that you believe you saw the man -take. Where were you when you saw him take this route? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. When I first saw him coming, you see, over here, I got -out of my cab and I started to cross the street to find a place to get -behind, and I got midway across the street, and then I got back and hid -behind the cab. I didn't see him in here, but I saw him when he hit the -shrubbery, when he hit that shrubbery. - -Mr. BELIN. There is an opening in part of that shrubbery? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, and I heard that when he hit that, and he was -looking over his left shoulder at that time. I first saw him and then I -got out---- - -Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you would show us on Exhibit 531, if you would -put an X there, the approximate location you were when you saw this man. - -Mr. SCOGGINS. When I first saw him? - -Mr. BELIN. No; when you first--yes, you can put where you first saw him. - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I was sitting inside my cab when I first saw him. - -Mr. BELIN. I mean after the shooting. - -Mr. SCOGGINS. After the shooting I guess when I first saw him, right -along about here. - -Mr. BELIN. All right, we are going to put--you had gotten out of your -car, and we are going to put a letter "A" with an arrow there. Where -were you when you saw him coming through the bushes, or by the bushes? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I was back there beside my cab. - -Mr. BELIN. You were still at that same point? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No, when I first saw him I left the cab and I went out to -the middle of the street. - -Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you first saw him and he was at the -point you marked, position 21 here on Exhibit 523? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Here. - -Mr. BELIN. At point "A." Then you went to the--you went out to the -street, in the street, and came back to point "A" on Exhibit 531--were -you standing or were you crouched? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I was kind of crouched down behind the cab. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. How did you see him if you were crouched? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, whenever he run through those bushes I looked up -again, you see. - -Mr. BELIN. You looked through your cab window? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I heard him--whenever I heard him hit those bushes---- - -Mr. BELIN. Did you stand or just look through your cab window? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I just looked and saw he was going down there. - -Mr. BELIN. About how close was this man to you when you saw him, the -closest when you saw him coming through the bushes, approximately. - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Oh, I would say from here to that chair down there. - -Mr. BELIN. Pardon? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. About that chair down there. - -Mr. BELIN. 12 feet? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. Referring to your tracing of the path that the man later -found to be Oswald followed, he went through the lower of these two -bushes there, did he? He went right through it? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. You see there is an opening in there. - -Mr. DULLES. But he didn't apparently take the opening, according to -this, because he went right through the bushes. - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, because I didn't see any opening in there. Was -there an opening in there? - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Dulles, for the record, when you are referring to 523, -there is an opening between the shrubbery, but within the shrubbery -itself there is an opening, and I think it will appear if you---- - -Mr. DULLES. I think the witness testified he heard the bushes move. - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Yes. But the opening within the bushes, is it a large -opening or a small opening between the bushes? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. It is not too large, but a man can get through very -easily by going through. - -Mr. DULLES. But he hits the bushes as he goes through? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. I see. That makes it clear. - -Mr. BELIN. It is not the wide opening between the two sets of bushes. - -Mr. DULLES. It is not quite as wide. - -Mr. SCOGGINS. It is an opening between the bushes themselves, like -maybe someone had planted three bushes and maybe one of them had died -to break the shrubbery. - -Mr. DULLES. That has happened to me. - -Mr. BELIN. What I am saying, Mr. Dulles, on Exhibit 523 there are two -groups of bushes. Within the lower group of bushes there is a slight -space to which the witness is referring. - -Mr. DULLES. I see. It is not the space here. - -Mr. BELIN. It is not the space between the two sets of bushes. - -Mr. DULLES. At this point do you recall whether he was running or -walking or what pace was he going at? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. He was going at a kind of lope. - -Mr. DULLES. Lope? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, what you might call a little trot. He did not seem -in too big a hurry, but he wasn't walking. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, you last saw the man when he was at the point -that you let the line stop at on Exhibit 523, is that correct? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. That would be in the approximate location. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I got on my radio. - -Mr. BELIN. And then you told us about calling your dispatcher? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I got back in my cab to call my dispatcher, you see. - -Mr. BELIN. Yes. - -Mr. SCOGGINS. And then I got out of the cab and run down there; the -ambulance had already arrived by the time I got there, and they were -in the process of picking the man up, and they had done had him, was -putting him on the stretcher when I got there, and they put him in the -ambulance and took him away, and there was someone that got on the -radio at that time and they told him he was going to report it, so they -told him to get off the air, that it had already been reported, and he -picks up the officer's pistol that was laying on the ground, apparently -fell out of his holster when he fell, and says, "Come on, let's go see -if we can find him." - -Mr. DULLES. Before you ask the next question, I wonder if I can ask one -question here. Do you know whether the ambulance came as a result of -the message you sent? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No, I sure don't. - -Mr. DULLES. You do not know? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No. - -Mr. DULLES. From the time angle, do you think that could have happened? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. It was awful fast if it did. They got there awfully -quickly if they did. - -Mr. DULLES. You don't know of any other warning going in; you put your -warning in, and that is all you know about it? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. That is all I know about it at that time, and I do know -this other gentleman called after I got up to the car, he called in, -and they told him it had already been. - -(Off the record discussion.) - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, I started to ask you about the revolver of the -policeman when you came and saw him. This was in his holster or on the -street? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. It was on the street whenever I saw it. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know where it was with relation to the policeman's -body? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. It was there pretty close to his body, you know, like -kind of under his body when they picked him up. It either fell out of -his holster or was laying on the ground, one, I don't know which. - -Mr. BELIN. What did you see him do? This man came up and picked up the -policeman's gun. He picked it up and said, "Let's go see if we can find -him?" - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I thought the man was a kind of police, Secret Service -or something, I didn't know, and I take him and we drove around over -the neighborhood looking, and I still didn't know what kind--I still -thought he was connected with the police department in some way. - -Mr. BELIN. What route did you take as you drove over the neighborhood? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I couldn't tell you. - -Mr. BELIN. You can't tell us the route you took over the neighborhood? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I was doing the driving and he was doing the directing. - -Mr. BELIN. He directed you where to go? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Actually, I couldn't say where he was going. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Representative FORD. Were you in your cab? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. - -Representative FORD. When you saw the pistol it wasn't in Officer -Tippit's hands? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No, sir; oh, he never did have a pistol in his hand, as -far as I know. - -Mr. BELIN. You saw him when he was falling? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he was holding his stomach. - -Mr. BELIN. You saw him holding his stomach as he fell? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he have anything in his hands? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. If he did I couldn't see it, and I don't think he ever -got to his pistol from what I saw. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see the man with the gun as he opened his gun, as he -was going to the west on--up 10th Street at all after the shooting? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No, I didn't see him. - -Mr. BELIN. After you went around to look for the man, did you find him -at all? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No. We drove around and asked several people, but we did -not see anybody that looked like him. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, by that time there was more policemen there than -you can shake a stick at. They were all over that place, and we stopped -the cab. - -Mr. BELIN. At about what time, do you know offhand? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. About 1:30, I guess, approximately 1:30; between 1:30 -and 1:35, I would say. We cruised around several blocks looking for -him, and we--one of these police cars came by and this fellow who was -with me stopped it, and we got back in the car and went back up to the -scene, and he give them the pistol, and that time is when I found out -he wasn't an officer. - -Mr. BELIN. Then what happened, or what did you do? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, they was questioning a lot of people and -questioning everybody, and they was talking, and so I went back and got -on my radio and contacted my supervisor, and they wanted me to come -into the office and make a statement, and so I did, the cab company. -One of the supervisors got a statement of it, and he asked me did the -police, did I give them a statement, and I told him no because, and he -said, "Well, why didn't you?" I said, "They didn't ask me. They talked -with everybody else." - -So the next day they took me down and put me through a lineup, showed -me a lineup of four people, and I identified the one that I had seen -the day before. - -Mr. BELIN. Now, let me ask you this question. First of all, do you -remember, or can you describe the man you saw on November 22 with the -gun? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. He was a medium-height fellow with, kind of a slender -look, and approximately, I said 25, 26 years old, somewhere along there. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the color of his hair? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. It was light; let's see, was it light or not--medium -brown, I would say. - -Mr. BELIN. Pardon? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Medium brown, I would say--now, wait a minute. Now, -medium brown or dark. - -Mr. BELIN. Medium brown or dark hair? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Was he a Negro or a white man? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. White, light complected, not real brown. - -Mr. BELIN. Was he fat, average build or thin? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No, he was slender; not real slender, but you know---- - -Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing glasses or not? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Pardon? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. That he had on? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Anything else you remember about him, the color of his shoes? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No, I can't say that. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember any jewelry he might have had on? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. You say you went down to the police station when, Mr. -Scoggins, approximately? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. You mean the time of day it was? - -Mr. BELIN. Was it the same day of the shooting or the next day? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No, it was the next day. - -Mr. BELIN. Morning, afternoon, or evening, if you remember? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, the best I can remember, they called me down from -the cab stand, the police came down to the office and picked me up. -Well, the other guy--I was close to the downtown area, and it didn't -take me long to get there, and I waited quite a while before the other -man, he was quite out a ways, and it was before dinner. - -Mr. BELIN. It was before dinner? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, whenever they called me in. - -Mr. BELIN. Would it have been on the afternoon of November 23, to the -best of your recollection? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. When they took me down there it was along about dinner -time. - -Representative FORD. What do you mean by dinner time? In various parts -of the country dinner and supper get confused a little bit. Was it the -noon meal or the evening meal? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. - -Representative FORD. Yes what? It was the noon meal? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. They took you down about the time of the noon meal, is that -correct; they took you to the police station? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I would think that would be about the time. - -Mr. BELIN. Sometime after you got there after the noon meal you saw the -lineup, is that correct? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. How many people were in the lineup, if you can remember? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Four. - -Mr. BELIN. Four? Did any one of the people look anything like--strike -that. Did you identify anyone in the lineup? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I identified the one we are talking about, Oswald. I -identified him. - -Mr. BELIN. You didn't know his name as Oswald at that time, did you, or -did you not? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, the next day I did. But, of course I didn't know -what his name was the day that I picked him out. - -Mr. BELIN. You saw a man in the lineup? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did anyone tell you any particular man was Oswald in the -lineup? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Well, describe what happened in the police station with -regard to the lineup, what they did to you, what they said to you, and -what you said to them, and so on. - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, they had the four men up there in the lineup, and -before they brought them in they told us what they wanted us to do, to -look them over and be sure we was, in our estimation, we was right on -the man, and which one it was, the one that we saw, the one that I saw. - -Mr. BELIN. Did they tell you one of the men was the man you saw or not, -or did they tell you "See if you can"--just what did they say? Did they -say "Here is a lineup, see if you can identify anyone," or did they -say, "One of the men in the lineup"---- - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, I believe those are the words they used. I am not---- - -Mr. BELIN. Did all of these men look different to you? Were most of -them fat, or were most of them thin, or some fat, some thin, some tall, -some short? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. There were two of them--the one that I identified as the -one I saw over at Oak Cliff, and there was one I saw similar to him, -and the other two was a little bit shorter. - -Mr. DULLES. Had you been looking at television or seeing television -prior to your appearance here at the lineup? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No. - -Mr. DULLES. You had not? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No, sir. - -Representative FORD. Had you been working this Saturday morning with -your cab? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. In other words, you went to work Saturday morning -at the regular time? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. - -Representative FORD. And were working when they asked you to come down -to the cab stand to go over to the police station? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. All right. - -Mr. BELIN. Had you seen any pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald in the -newspapers prior to the time you went to the police station lineup? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I think I saw one in the morning paper. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you subscribe to the morning or evening paper? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I take the evening paper myself. - -Mr. BELIN. You went down and bought a morning paper? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No; I didn't go out. I was looking at one of the--some of -the cab drivers had it. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see any television picture on the morning of -November 23 of Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I have never until this day seen it. - -Mr. BELIN. On television? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I never have. - -Representative FORD. Do you have a television in your home? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes sir; I do. But I don't--when I get home I will read -the paper, and after you work about 12 hours you don't feel like -fooling around with television too much. - -Mr. BELIN. What number man in the lineup did you identify as having -seen on November 22? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Number 3. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you have the man turn around, or could you---- - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, they turned him around. - -Mr. BELIN. Did they turn just one man around or all of them? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No; they had them all. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if the number 3 man in the lineup was -wearing the same clothes that the man you saw at the Tippit shooting -wore? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. He had on a different shirt, and he didn't have a jacket -on. He had on kind of a polo shirt. - -Mr. BELIN. Before you went to view the lineup, did any of the police -officers show you a picture of this man? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Sometime later, after the lineup, did any investigator come -up to you with a picture of anyone and ask you if you could identify -him? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if he was an FBI man or a Dallas policeman -or a Secret Service agent? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. He was an FBI or a Secret Service. - -Mr. BELIN. What did he ask you and what did you tell him? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. He gave me some pictures, showed me several pictures -there, which was, some of them were, pretty well resembled him, -and some of them didn't, and they looked like they was kind of old -pictures, and I think I picked the wrong picture. I am not too---- - -Mr. BELIN. What did he say to you and what did you say to him, if you -remember? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I don't really--I know he showed me his credentials. - -Mr. BELIN. Did he say to you something like "These are pictures we have -of Lee Harvey Oswald"? Did he use that name in front of you, or did he -say, "Here are some pictures. See if you can identify them"--if you -remember? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I don't remember, but after I got through looking at them -and everything, and I says, I told them one of these two pictures is -him, out of this group he showed me, and the one that was actually him -looked like an older man than he was to me. Of course, I am not too -much on identifying pictures. It wasn't a full shot of him, you know, -and then he told me the other one was Oswald. - -Representative FORD. Had you narrowed the number of pictures from more -than two to two? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. - -Representative FORD. In other words, they showed you pictures of how -many people altogether, how many different people, your best estimate? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I would say 4 or 5. - -Representative FORD. And you narrowed the number of 4 or 5 down to 2? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Down to two; yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, at the time of the shooting, did you see any -pedestrians standing at the corner of East 10th and Patton, any of the -corners there? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I didn't see anybody. I was kind of excited. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you see any other person walking along the street there? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Not at the time of the shooting, I didn't. - -Mr. BELIN. Is there anything you can think of that you haven't told -us here that might be relevant to what you saw in connection with the -Tippit shooting? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No, I can't--nothing that I know of. That is the first -time I ever seen anything like that happen, and I was pretty well -excited and mixed up, and not knowing what to do or what not to do. But -actually, of course, right after the shooting, I saw a number of people -come running over, you see, from everywhere. - -Mr. BELIN. Were they all men? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No, they were just people. - -Mr. BELIN. General Carr, do you have any questions? - -Mr. CARR. No, sir. I was exploring with him, but I guess we won't get -into it. - -Mr. BELIN. Those are all the questions I have. Just a second. When -you saw a picture in the morning paper of Lee Harvey Oswald, did this -look similar to the man you saw at the Tippit shooting, or did it look -different? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I would say similar; yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Did it look like the same man? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. - -Representative FORD. What kind of eyesight do you have? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I had my eyes examined when I went to work for the cab -company and the lady said I had remarkable eyesight. You know, they -have--after I went to work, after a while, I had to go get my eyes -examined. - -Representative FORD. You had your eyes examined subsequent to your -employment with the cab company? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, it was sometime after, maybe 6 months after. - -Mr. DULLES. How many years ago was that? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Oh, about a year, approximately. - -Representative FORD. At that time what did the eye examiner tell you? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. She said I had excellent eyesight and vision. - -Representative FORD. You don't wear glasses? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No. - -Representative FORD. What about your hearing? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I can hear. I got good hearing. I never did have it -examined or anything, but I can hear everything. - -Representative FORD. Have you ever had any difficulty with the law, -have you ever had any trouble with officers of the law? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I got a ticket for parking that I had to pay. - -Representative FORD. That is a traffic violation. - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. No; I really haven't had any problems that amount to -anything otherwise than traffic violations. - -Representative FORD. Nothing other than traffic violations? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I was picked up one time in New York City for -stowing away on a tugboat. - -Mr. BELIN. Stowing away on a boat? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Actually what happened---- - -Mr. DULLES. How old were you then? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. 17 or 18. I was sleeping in a boxcar and they put that -boxcar on a tugboat and sent it across the river. - -Mr. DULLES. You stowed away without knowing it. - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. I don't think that is a very grave offense. - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No. I never have been in any grave trouble. - -Mr. BELIN. One more question, Mr. Scoggins. You rode up here to -Washington on an airplane with Mrs. Markham, did you not? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Before you saw Mrs. Markham the other day, did you ever -recognize her as having seen her from the time of the Tippit shooting -at all or not? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, I saw her down there talking to the policemen after -I came back. You see. I saw her talking to them. - -Mr. BELIN. You never actually saw her standing on the street, did you? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I never actually observed her there. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. - -Mr. DULLES. When you say, "I came back" is that when you got into your -car? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. After I had got in the car and toured the neighborhood -and then the policemen came along and I left my cab setting down there -and got in a car with them and left the scene. - -Mr. DULLES. At what stage did you see Mrs. Markham? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. After I had gotten back up there. After I had drove -around in the neighborhood looking for Oswald or looking for this guy. - -Mr. DULLES. It was after that? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. It was after that. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, when you identified the man in the lineup at -the police station on November 23, was there any other person who at -the same time was asked to identify a man in that lineup? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, one other. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know--one other person? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know what that man's name is or what his occupation -is? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, he drives a taxicab. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you know his name? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; his name is Bill Whaley. - -Mr. BELIN. Whaley? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I think it is Whaley. I didn't know him from Adam until -that day, you know, and he said his name was Whaley. - -Mr. BELIN. When you were there and identified a man, had Whaley already -identified that man or not? I mean, did you hear Whaley or see Whaley -identify that man? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No. He was sitting over on my left. - -Mr. BELIN. He was on your left? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. It was dark. They turned the lights out where we -were sitting. We could see the man with lights up there. - -Mr. BELIN. Could you see Mr. Whaley at the time he made the -identification? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I suppose if I would have looked over there I could -have seen that there was a man there, that I could have recognized him. - -Mr. BELIN. Were you looking at Mr. Whaley at the time? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Did you make your identification by your voice or by your -hands? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. By my hands, using--I put up three fingers. - -Mr. BELIN. Did they tell you ahead of time to hold up the number of -fingers for the man that you saw? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BELIN. How many fingers did you hold up? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Three. - -Mr. BELIN. At the time you held up your three fingers, did you know how -many fingers Mr. Whaley was holding up? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No. - -Mr. BELIN. Then did you know whether or not Mr. Whaley had identified -the man? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No, I sure don't. - -Mr. BELIN. Was there any person or were there any persons standing -between you and Mr. Whaley? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. That I don't know because I did not look over there. - -Mr. DULLES. Could Mr. Whaley, in your opinion, see you holding up these -fingers? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No, no. I made sure of that because I had my hand down -like this. - -Mr. BELIN. When you had your hand down you are putting it in front of -your belt? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. As well as I could remember I had it down kind of like -this here. I don't know whether I used my right or my left hand, but I -didn't hold up three fingers like this, but I held them down just about -like this. - -Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to your right hand and putting it somewhat -about a few inches above the buckle of your belt; is that about where -you held up your fingers? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. About as well as I could remember. - -Mr. BELIN. What happened after you held up your fingers, did someone -see you holding your fingers up there? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. - -Representative FORD. Where were they standing beside you so that they -could see your fingers? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, this gentleman was standing over back a piece to my -left, sir. - -Representative FORD. Was it close to you, sir? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. There was one man on my right. He was Secret Service or -FBI, I think FBI; and the other man was a policeman, Dallas policeman. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether Mr. Whaley was making his -identification at the same time that you did or did he make it before -or after? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No. All I know is that we viewed them at the same time. - -Mr. DULLES. He viewed them at the same time? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. You don't know at what time Mr. Whaley made his -identification? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. You didn't see him make the identification? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I didn't even see him. - -Mr. DULLES. You don't know what his identification was? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No. I never asked him which one or nothing, because I -never did discuss it with him at all after that. - -Representative FORD. When you brought your cab up to the corner of 10th -and Patton, did you just conclude or had you just concluded dropping a -passenger? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, approximately five minutes before that. - -Representative FORD. Do you keep a record of the trips that you take? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. During your working day? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. If I pick up a passenger, say, like 28 minutes -to 12 o'clock, we put 20 minutes to 12. We don't put the odd minutes -down. - -If we let him out 2 minutes after 12, we put down 12 o'clock. I know I -let him out at 1 o'clock, maybe a minute or two after. We do put the -destination we leave from and the destination he is going to on our -records sheet. - -Representative FORD. What does your record show about this last trip? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I picked him up at Love Field and carried him to -321 North Ewing, as well as I can remember now, that was the address. - -Representative FORD. And your record shows that? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. When I picked him up, the mileage started from, the -mileage I let him out on the speedometer. When I picked him up we put -the mileage down. We don't put the tenth down, and when we let him out -we put the mileage and the time; and when we pick him up we put the -mileage and the time, and the destination where we start and where we -let him off, and the amount the fare was. - -Representative FORD. And your last entry shows what for that day? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I don't know what the last entry was. Up until then that -was the one where I let the man off at. It was an apartment building. -Of course, I don't have the apartment number, anything like that. The -guy says, "I want to go to 321 North Ewing," and that is where I take -him. It is an apartment. Of course now, if somebody calls in for a cab -at a certain address, if it is an apartment, they have to give their -apartment number so we could find it. - -Representative FORD. How far was this last destination to the point of -10th and Patton? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. It was less than a mile, about a half mile or -maybe--well, let's see, it was closer to a mile, I would say. - -Representative FORD. Was there any particular reason why you went to -the corner of 10th and Patton? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. I belong to that club there, and I was going around -there to get me a coca cola that I could have gotten anywhere else, but -I know a lot of the guys. - -Representative FORD. What is the club called? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. It is a gentleman's club, a domino parlor where we play -dominos. - -Representative FORD. It is at what address? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. 123 or 125 South Patton. - -Mr. BELIN. About where is it in relation to East 10th and Patton, how -far away, a block, two blocks? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. It is not a block. It is just about, I would say, -just--if it was measured it would be a little over a half block from -where I was parked at to the place, you see. - -Mr. BELIN. I wonder, perhaps, if we can see it on any of these -pictures, Mr. Scoggins. Do you see it in this picture, Exhibit 530? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; I can see the building. - -Mr. BELIN. Let's see the building here. - -Mr. SCOGGINS. That is it up there. - -Mr. BELIN. I wonder if we can't, perhaps, put on Exhibit 530 an arrow -which points to this building, and we will put "G" for the gentleman's -club; is that correct? Is that the building to which you are referring? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, we have another picture that we would like to -have you identify, Commission Exhibit 534. This is a picture in which -the camera appears to be heading in what direction? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. It would be heading east--I mean west on 10th Street. - -Mr. BELIN. That picture was taken the other day at the time you drove -your cab back to that scene, is that correct? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. I would think it was; yes. - -Mr. BELIN. Does this appear to be the position your cab was in at the -time of the shooting of Officer Tippit? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. - -Mr. BELIN. All right. At this time we offer and introduce into evidence -all exhibits up through 534, except we do not have a 533 because we -renumbered the original Exhibit 533, so we do not have a 533. - -Do you have anything more, Congressman Ford? - -Representative FORD. Those exhibits will be admitted. - -(Items identified as Commission Exhibits through No. 534, with the -exception of Exhibit No. 533, were admitted in evidence.) - -Mr. DULLES. Mr. Scoggins, you have referred, I believe, to a -conversation you had with Mr. Whaley, I think his name is, and I would -like to have you just recount what you recall of what Mr. Whaley said -to you, and where he said it, and at what time. - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Well now, this conversation we are talking about, while -we were down there waiting. - -Mr. DULLES. Down where, down at the police station? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No; down at the cab office--it is a cab office at 610 -South Akard Street, you know. - -Mr. DULLES. A cab stand? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. We call it our main office. - -Mr. DULLES. And Mr. Whaley's cab belonged to the same company as your -cab? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. Only he drives out of downtown, which office is -610 South Akard Street, that is the number. They have a building there, -a large building, with all the dispatching offices and everything, and -mine, of course, I have got the same dispatchers, we all belong to the -same company. I drive an Oak Cliff cab, and he drives downtown. - -Mr. DULLES. Relate what Mr. Whaley said to you. - -Mr. SCOGGINS. He didn't relate it to me. He was talking to the others. - -Mr. DULLES. He was talking to cabdrivers? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. He was talking to one of the---- - -Mr. DULLES. Where did this take place? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. It was down at the cabstand. - -Mr. DULLES. Was this on Saturday after the assassination? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. And he was telling them where he picked him up and where -he took him to. - -Mr. DULLES. And that is what you recall? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; because I didn't know him. I wasn't acquainted with -the man. - -Mr. DULLES. You were not acquainted with Mr. Whaley? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. No. Before he came down there that morning I wouldn't -have known him from Adam, you know, just wouldn't have had any idea who -he was. - -Mr. DULLES. Would you recall what he said as to where he picked up the -man and where he took him? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. He said he picked him up at the Greyhound bus and carried -him to a neighborhood, no particular address, on North Beckley, the 500 -block. - -Mr. DULLES. Have you anything more on that, Mr. Belin? - -Mr. BELIN. No, sir. I do have one other question. - -Mr. DULLES. Proceed then. - -Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not your dispatcher recorded -any time on his sheets as to the time you called in after the Tippit -shooting? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. When I was down there giving my statement to my -supervisor, he asked me what time it was, and I said I don't have any -idea, so he picked up the phone and called the dispatcher, and he said -it was 1:23. - -Mr. BELIN. That is the time that he recorded it? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. He must have recorded it up there because he said it -was 1:23 in the afternoon. - -Mr. BELIN. When you called in after the shooting? - -Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. Anything else? - -Mr. BELIN. No, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Any further questions? Well, thank you very much, Mr. -Scoggins. - - -TESTIMONY OF HELEN MARKHAM RESUMED - -Mr. DULLES. You were sworn when you previously were before us, and this -testimony of yours will be covered by the oath you previously have -given. Will you be seated? - -Mr. BALL. I have two Commission Exhibits, 535 and 536. I will show them -to you, Mrs. Markham, and I will ask you if you have ever seen the man -who is pictured there, whose picture is shown on these two exhibits. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No. - -Mr. BALL. Never have seen him before. Do you think he might have been -one of the men you talked to before? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, no. - -Mr. BALL. They are pictures of the same man. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No. - -Mr. DULLES. We are inquiring whether you had ever seen him after the -assassination. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I know. No; not this man. This man I have never -seen--I have never seen this man in my life. - -Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you know who he is? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I don't. It is just a picture of a man; I don't know -him. - -Mr. DULLES. Mr. Ball, do you have any further questions? - -Mr. BALL. No further questions. - -Representative FORD. Have you ever had any difficulty with the law, -Mrs. Markham? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No. - -Representative FORD. None whatsoever? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. - -Representative FORD. Traffic violations? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. You are lucky. - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I have never been in trouble. - -Representative FORD. No difficulties whatsoever with the law? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. That is all, Mrs. Markham. You can be excused. - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much, Mrs. Markham. - -Mr. BALL. I offer Exhibits 535 and 536 in evidence at this time. - -Mr. DULLES. They will be received. - -(The items identified as Commission Exhibits Nos. 535 and 536 were -received in evidence.) - -Mr. BALL. They were taken from a newspaper, they were taken from -newspaper accounts which purported to be, to show, the picture of a man -named Mark Lane. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes, because he appeared before this Commission, did he not? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. Mr. Redlich, can you identify him? Were you present when -Mr. Lane appeared before this Commission? - -Mr. REDLICH. Yes; I was. - -Mr. DULLES. Can you identify these pictures as pictures of Mr. Lane? - -Mr. REDLICH. Yes; I can identify these as pictures of Mr. Lane. I would -also like for the record to indicate where they came from. Commission -Exhibit No. 535 is taken from--Commission Exhibit 536 came from the San -Francisco Chronicle, and dated February 8, 1964, and purports to be a -photograph of Mark Lane. - -Commission No. 535 is a photograph from a newspaper clipping which was -in the Commission files, and it is an Associated Press photograph, and -appeared, it is taken from the New York Herald Tribune of March 5, -1964, and purports to be a photograph of Mark Lane. I have met Mr. Lane -once or twice prior to his appearance before this Commission, and I was -present during his testimony before this Commission. - -Mr. DULLES. You identify these as pictures of Mr. Lane? - -Mr. REDLICH. These are photographs of Mark Lane. - -Mr. DULLES. And these Exhibits 535 and 536 were the exhibits which were -presented to Mrs. Markham? - -Mr. BELIN. I think the record should show how they were presented. They -were clipped out so there was not any writing or anything to indicate -whom they were pictures of on their face. - -Mr. DULLES. That is on the record. - -Mrs. Markham, there is a short question that Congressman Ford wanted to -put to you. - -Representative FORD. What kind of eyesight do you have, Mrs. Markham? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. I have always had good eyesight. - -Representative FORD. Do you wear glasses? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I don't. - -Representative FORD. Have your eyes tested recently? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I haven't. I have no cause to. - -Representative FORD. You have never worn glasses in your lifetime? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. No. - -Mr. DULLES. Are you farsighted, nearsighted, or neither, just -good-sighted? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Just good-sighted. I did a lot of writing and a cashier -and everything. I see pretty good. - -Representative FORD. If you go to a movie can you see the picture -easily and well? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Oh, yes; yes, sir; real well. - -Representative FORD. You can see things at a distance quite well? - -Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. I have never had glasses. - -Representative FORD. Thank you very much. - - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. BARBARA JEANETTE DAVIS - -Mr. BALL. Mrs. Davis, you didn't get the notice through the mail asking -you to appear here? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. We told you orally in Washington, or in Dallas last Friday, -didn't we? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. She has not been sworn. Will you kindly raise your right -hand? Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give to this -Commission is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so -help you God? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I do. - -Mr. BALL. Mrs. Davis, you didn't get a letter from the Commission -asking you to appear here? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. But when Mr. Belin and I were in Dallas on Friday of last -week we asked you to appear? - -Mrs. DAVIS. On Saturday. - -Mr. BALL. On Saturday, was it? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. That is right. And you voluntarily agreed to come up here, -didn't you? - -Mrs. DAVIS. That is right. - -Mr. BALL. Without any notice from the Commission? - -Mrs. DAVIS. That is right. - -Mr. BALL. Where do you live? - -Mr. DULLES. May we thank you for that. - -Mrs. DAVIS. Athens, Tex. - -Mr. BALL. Where do you live? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Athens, Tex. - -Mr. BALL. You are married, are you? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You have some children? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Two. - -Mr. BALL. What is your husband's name? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Troy. - -Mr. BALL. Troy Davis? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Troy Lee Davis. - -Mr. BALL. What is your business or what is his business? - -Mrs. DAVIS. He is a roofer. - -Mr. BALL. Beg pardon? - -Mrs. DAVIS. He is a roofer. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you born, Mrs. Davis? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Athens. - -Mr. BALL. Athens? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Live there all your life? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; part of it I have lived in Dallas some. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Athens. - -Mr. BALL. How far through school did you go? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Halfway through the 10th midterm. - -Mr. BALL. Then did you get married? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You were living in Dallas on November 22, were you? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What was your address there in Dallas? - -Mrs. DAVIS. 400 East 10th. - -Mr. BALL. Who was living with you at that time? - -Mrs. DAVIS. You mean in the apartment or in the building? - -Mr. BALL. In the apartment with you. - -Mrs. DAVIS. Just my husband and two children. - -Mr. BALL. You had a sister, did you? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Sister-in-law. - -Mr. BALL. What is her name? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Virginia. - -Mr. BALL. Was she living there at the time, too? - -Mrs. DAVIS. They lived around the side of the apartment house. - -Mr. BALL. In the same building? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. That was your husband's sister? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No; it was my husband's brother's wife. - -Mr. BALL. Husband's brother's wife. I see. - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. I have got some pictures here so we will understand. I will -show you Exhibit 525. Is the house in which you were living on November -22d shown in the picture? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Here. - -Mr. BALL. It is the one on the corner? The southeast corner of 10th and -Patton, isn't it? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I don't know anything about that, but I know where it is. - -Mr. BALL. I will show you Commission Exhibit 524. Is the house shown in -that picture? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; sir. - -Mr. BALL. And I show you 534, is the house shown in that picture? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I am showing you 528 and there is a lawn there, that is the -lawn of what house? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Of the house I lived in. - -Mr. BALL. The house you lived in. - -On that day did something unusual happen that you observed, on November -22d? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Those gunshots. - -Mr. BALL. Gunshots? Where were you when you heard gunshots? - -Mrs. DAVIS. In bed. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you say gunshot or gunshots? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Shots. - -Mr. DULLES. Plural? How many did you hear? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Just two, they were pretty close together. - -Mr. BALL. You were lying on the bed. What did you do? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I got up, put my shoes on to see what it was. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever go outdoors? - -Mrs. DAVIS. At first, I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. When you went to the door, did you open the door? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I opened the door and held the screen opened. - -Mr. BALL. What did you see? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Mrs. Markham standing across the street over there, and she -was standing over there and the man was coming across the yard. - -Mr. BALL. A man was coming across what yard? - -Mrs. DAVIS. My yard. - -Mr. BALL. And what did you see the man doing? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Well, first off she went to screaming before I had paid too -much attention to him, and pointing at him, and he was, what I thought, -was emptying the gun. - -Mr. BALL. He had a gun in his hand? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And he was emptying it? - -Mrs. DAVIS. It was open and he had his hands cocked like he was -emptying it. - -Mr. DULLES. Which hand did he have it? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Right hand. - -Mr. BALL. To his left palm? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see him throw anything away? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do next? - -Mrs. DAVIS. He looked at her first and looked at me and then smiled and -went around the corner. - -Mr. BALL. Was he running or walking? - -Mrs. DAVIS. He was walking at his normal pace. - -Mr. BALL. And he went around the corner? - -Did he go on the sidewalk? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. He was on the sidewalk right beside the house. - -Mr. BALL. Did he go, did he cut across your lawn at all? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Where? - -Mrs. DAVIS. He cut across the middle of the yard. - -Mr. BALL. Here is a diagram, 523, this is 400--that is your home. - -Mrs. DAVIS. He came right across like this. - -Mr. BALL. Came across like this? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Ran beside the sidewalk. - -Mr. BALL. There is already a mark on there. - -Mrs. DAVIS. He left the sidewalk about here, just on the other side of -this. - -Mr. BALL. Well, mark on the picture now, photo 21 which is Commission -Exhibit 534, and you just take this and mark with it and show where he -left the sidewalk and what course he took. - -Mrs. DAVIS. He was just parallel to the side of this and right around -this little bush and around the corner. - -Mr. BALL. Around the corner? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. The black mark from the sidewalk on 534 marks the course that -the man took? - -Representative FORD. Could you tell us where you were standing when you -saw him? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I was standing on the porch. - -Mr. BALL. Put an "X" there. - -Mrs. DAVIS. I can't see the porch. The door is right between these two -things here. - -Mr. BALL. These two things--what do you mean? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Between the two posts. - -Mr. BALL. Two posts? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Let's get a better view. - -Mr. DULLES. It seems to be the best. - -Mr. BALL. You are right. - -That is 525. - -Now mark where he cut across on that with a line. - -Mrs. DAVIS. Right across like this, only it would be on the other side -of the bushes here. - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -And where were you? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Standing right--here is the door right here. - -Mr. BALL. Put an "X" there. That "X" is a mark to locate your position -and we will give a symbol to it. "D." Now, the line you have drawn from -the sidewalk through the bushes is the course the man took. Where was -he when you saw him emptying his gun? - -Mrs. DAVIS. He was right here on the other side of this bush. - -Mr. BALL. Draw a line through the course there. - -Mrs. DAVIS. Just about along in here. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you know at the time he was emptying his gun? - -Mrs. DAVIS. That is what I presumed because he had it open and was -shaking it. - -Mr. DULLES. I see. Just right there. - -Mr. BALL. In other words, there is a cross you make across the line -that he took which marks the place where he was emptying the gun. - -Mrs. DAVIS. Just about halfway there. - -Mr. BALL. Mark it also on 21, 534. - -Mrs. DAVIS. Not quite half, not quite to the bushes there. - -Representative FORD. Mr. Ball, even though she cannot pinpoint the -point where she was standing because of the photograph, she might draw -an arrow showing about where she was standing. - -Mr. BALL. Show an arrow about where you were standing. - -Mrs. DAVIS. About there. - -Mr. BALL. That is 21, photo 21 and Commission Exhibit 534. - -After the man left, what did you do, after he went out of sight what -did you do? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I went back in and phoned the police. - -Mr. BALL. Then what did you tell the police? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I just told them that a policeman had been shot. - -Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I came back outside and walked down to where the -policeman's car was out. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see the policeman? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Where was he? - -Mrs. DAVIS. He was laying on the left-hand side of the car on the -ground, by the left-hand fender. - -Mr. BALL. Was he alive or what? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I don't know. - -Mr. BALL. Did he talk? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't know whether he was alive or dead? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; I didn't get that close. - -Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Not 5 minutes, I would imagine, because the police cars -started coming, so I went back to my yard. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see a man coming and get the policeman's gun? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Did you later look in the bushes and find something? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; in the grass beside the house. - -Mr. BALL. The grass beside the house. What did you find? - -Mrs. DAVIS. We found one shell. - -Mr. BALL. One shell? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And your sister-in-law, did your sister-in-law find something -else? - -Mrs. DAVIS. She found one later in the afternoon. - -Mr. BALL. One, later? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Can you show me on one of these pictures here where you found -one shell? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Under the window here. That would be the only one I could -tell. - -Mr. BALL. The only one that shows, it is photo 3, it is Commission -Exhibit 534. Draw an arrow down. - -Mrs. DAVIS. Right Under that window there. - -Mr. BALL. Under that window. - -The arrow which is marked "D-1" shows the position where you found one -shell. Did you see your sister-in-law find the other shell? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Where was that found? - -Mrs. DAVIS. There is a little cement walk right here by her door, it -was right there, not too far from there. - -Mr. BALL. Could you draw an arrow down to show the approximate position? - -Mrs. DAVIS. It was almost in front of her door, there is a little -cement porch to step up to her door. - -Mr. BALL. The arrow which we marked as "D-2" marks the place where your -sister-in-law found the second shell? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You only found two shells, did you, you one and your -sister-in-law one? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What time of day did you find the one shell? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I don't know. This was probably an hour and a half, maybe 2 -hours, after the officer was shot. - -Mr. BALL. What time of day did your sister-in-law find her shell, find -the shell that she found? - -Mr. DAVIS. Somewhere around 4:30, 5, somewhere in there. - -Mr. BALL. Did you later go down to the police station? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Were you shown a group of people in the police station and -asked if you could identify the man? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Were you alone in that room when you were shown these people? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Who was with you? - -Mrs. DAVIS. My husband, my sister-in-law was with me, and some other -men. - -Mr. BALL. That is your husband Troy, your sister-in-law Virginia Davis, -and yourself, and other men? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you know those men? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Were police officers there? - -Mrs. DAVIS. They were all in suits, some sat at the back of the room. - -Mr. BALL. When those--how many men were shown to you in this lineup? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Four. - -Mr. BALL. Were they of the same size or of different sizes? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Most of them was about the same size. - -Mr. BALL. All white men, were they? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did you recognize anyone in that room? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. I recognized number 2. - -Mr. BALL. Number 2 you recognized? Did you tell any policeman there -anything after you recognized them? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I told the man who had brought us down there. - -Mr. BALL. What did you tell him? - -Mrs. DAVIS. That I thought number 2 was the man that I saw. - -Mr. BALL. That you saw? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. By number 2, was the man you saw the man you saw doing what? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Unloading the gun. - -Mr. BALL. And going across your yard? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. That was about what time of day that you were at the lineup? - -Mrs. DAVIS. It was after 8, I am sure. - -Mr. BALL. After when? - -Mrs. DAVIS. After 8 o'clock. - -Mr. BALL. On what day? - -Mrs. DAVIS. On Friday, the same day. - -Mr. BALL. The same day? It was after 8 o'clock on Friday, the same day -that you had seen the man unloading the gun? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Have you any way of fixing the time of when the man ran -across your lawn, approximately? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; not exactly because I had laid down with the -children and I didn't pay any attention to what time it was. - -Representative FORD. You saw him take the shells out of the gun? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; he was shaking them. - -Representative FORD. He was shaking them? - -Mrs. DAVIS. He was shaking them. I didn't see him actually use his hand -to take them out. I mean he was sort of shaking them out. - -Representative FORD. Did you find this one bullet at the point where -you saw him shake the gun? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; it was around the side of the house. - -Representative FORD. About how many feet? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I don't know. Not too far. - -Representative FORD. But he had moved from the one point to where you -found the bullets? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Yes. - -Mrs. DAVIS. That is where they started looking for it. - -Representative FORD. I meant the shells rather than the bullets. - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Was he dressed the same in the lineup as he was when you saw -him running across the lawn? - -Mrs. DAVIS. All except he didn't have a black coat on when I saw him in -the lineup. - -Mr. BALL. Did he have a coat on when you saw him? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What color coat? - -Mrs. DAVIS. A dark coat. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did you recognize him from his face or from his clothes -when you saw him in the lineup? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Well, I looked at his clothes and then his face from the -side because I had seen him from a side view of him. I didn't see him -fullface. - -Mr. BALL. Now answer the question. Did you recognize him from seeing -his face or from his clothes? - -Mrs. DAVIS. From his face because that was all I was looking at. - -Mr. BALL. I see. Now, when you heard the shots you were lying down, -were you? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Was anyone lying with you? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Virginia was laying on the couch. - -Mr. BALL. In the same room with you? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did she go to the door with you when you went to the door? - -Mrs. DAVIS. She went right behind me. - -Mr. BALL. I have a jacket, I would like to show you, which is -Commission Exhibit No. 162. Does this look anything like the jacket -that the man had on that was going across your lawn? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How is it different? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Well, it was dark and to me it looked like it was maybe a -wool fabric, it looked sort of rough. Like more of a sporting jacket. - -Mr. BALL. I show you a shirt which is Commission Exhibit No. 150. Was -that--does that shirt look anything like something he had on, that the -man had on who went across your lawn? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I thought that the shirt he had on was lighter than that. - -Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. Where was Mrs. Markham when you -first saw her? - -Mrs. DAVIS. She was standing right here on this corner. - -Mr. BALL. That picture? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. That picture that you refer to is photo number 3, Commission -Exhibit 524. - -It is as shown on the corner here, as the woman who is shown in the -corner? - -Mrs. DAVIS. That was her position. - -Representative FORD. Do you wear glasses, Mrs. Davis? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. - -Representative FORD. Have you had your eyes examined recently? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I believe it was in October when I applied for some -driver's license. - -Representative FORD. In October of 1963? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Representative FORD. You applied for a driver's license? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I believe it was the first--some time in October, I believe. - -Representative FORD. When you applied for a driver's license in Texas -you have to take an examination? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. And you did take one? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Did they recommend that you wear glasses? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. He said my eyes are all right. - -Representative FORD. He said your eyes were all right? - -Mr. DULLES. Have you had any problems with the law at any time? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Except for traffic violations? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No. - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you. What is your husband's occupation? - -Mrs. DAVIS. He is a roofer. - -Mr. DULLES. What? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Puts shingles and roofs on houses. - -Mr. DULLES. Oh, yes, surely. - -Mr. BALL. Mrs. Davis, before you went down to look at the man at -the police station at 8 o'clock that night, had you seen television -pictures of the man on television that he had been arrested? - -Mrs. DAVIS. As far as I can remember I don't remember seeing it because -I was out in the yard all the time that was going on, and I don't -believe the TV was on. - -Mr. BALL. Before you saw the man in the lineup were you shown a picture -of any man by a police officer? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you read a newspaper and see any pictures in a newspaper, -picture of a man in the newspaper, before you went down there? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I don't really know. I couldn't be quite sure. I can't -remember whether I did or not. - -Mr. BALL. Do you take an evening or a morning paper? - -Mrs. DAVIS. We take an afternoon paper, we took an afternoon paper then. - -Mr. BALL. Do you recall whether or not you did see a picture in the -paper of the man? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I don't remember. I don't even remember whether I read it -or not. There was so much excitement. - -Mr. BALL. When the man ran over the lawn, can you give me an estimate -of how far away he was from you? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I can't. - -Mr. BALL. Make a judgment about it as to this room. Is it as far away -from you to me? - -Mrs. DAVIS. It was about as far as here to the corner of the room out -there, or just a little bit more, the far corner. - -Representative FORD. Just a little less, did you say? - -Mrs. DAVIS. About like that. - -Mr. BELIN. About seven or eight steps? - -Mr. BALL. About 20, 25 feet, is that right? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I believe so. - -Mr. BALL. There is an affidavit that has been filed with us, a -statement you made to the Secret Service men on the first of December -1963. And in that affidavit, it says, after describing that "The man -was on the sidewalk directly in front of me and shaking shells from -a pistol into his hand as he walked,"--this says here, "The man was -walking in a normal direction and walked across the corner of my -property towards Patton Street." - -Did you ever tell anyone that you saw the man walking in a normal -direction? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No; I showed them where it was at, and they done that. - -Mr. BALL. I see. He was walking--what direction? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I didn't know. And so they figured that out. - -Mr. BALL. He was walking towards what street? - -Mrs. DAVIS. He was going down Patton. - -Mr. BALL. Towards what street? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Jefferson. And so they figured it out for me. - -Mr. BALL. However--when--did you see the man after he went around the -corner of your house? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. - -Representative FORD. Did you see the taxicab parked on the corner? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Let's go back to that afternoon, and you give your best -memory of what the man looked like. Don't think of what anybody has -told you or what has happened in between. Try to remember the vision -you had of that man--the color of his hair, the size of his build and -so forth. - -Mrs. DAVIS. You mean weight and like that? - -Mr. BALL. He was white, wasn't he? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Light complexioned, or dark? - -Mrs. DAVIS. He was more light complected than he would have been dark. - -Mr. BALL. Color of his hair? - -Mrs. DAVIS. It was either dark brown or black. It was just dark hair. - -Mr. BALL. And the color of his clothes? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Well, I said he had on--he looked to me that he had on dark -trousers, and it looked like a light colored shirt, with a dark coat -over it. - -Mr. BALL. About what age would you say the man was? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I am not very good on that. I don't know. I would say he -was about 23, 24. - -Mr. BALL. And what about his weight and height? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I---- - -Mr. BALL. You have to be general, I know that. - -Mr. DULLES. Just your best recollection. If you haven't any, just tell -us. - -Mrs. DAVIS. I just don't know. - -Mr. BALL. Was he fat or slender? - -Mrs. DAVIS. He was slender built, and not very heavy. - -Mr. BALL. Was he a tall man, or a real short man, or average? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Oh, he wasn't especially tall. I would say he was about -medium height or a little taller. I mean he wasn't extra tall. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did you have some difficulty in identifying this No. 2 -man in the showup when you saw him? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Well, they made us look at him a long time before they let -us say anything. - -Mr. BALL. What about you? I am not talking about what you told them. - -What was your reaction when you saw this man? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Well, I was pretty sure it was the same man I saw. When -they made him turn sideways, I was positive that was the one I seen. - -Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. - -Mr. BELIN. Thank you, Mrs. Davis. - -Mr. DULLES. Did your sister-in-law go with you to the lineup? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Did she make an identification? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. At the same time as you did? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you see her identification? - -Mrs. DAVIS. We didn't discuss it. - -Mr. DULLES. I mean, but after she had made it, did you see what -identification she had made? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Do you mean--I don't understand what you mean. - -Mr. DULLES. Well, let me start over again. - -Did you identify the man in the lineup before your sister-in-law? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Before your sister-in-law? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir; I was the first one. - -Mr. DULLES. All right. - -Did your sister-in-law, to your knowledge, make the same identification? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir; she was there with me at the same time. - -Mr. DULLES. She was standing with you. And she saw the identification -you had made? - -Mrs. DAVIS. All I done was just lean over and tell the man. - -Mr. DULLES. How did you make your identification? By pointing or -holding up your fingers. - -Mrs. DAVIS. The man that was sitting next to me just asked me which one -I thought it was, and I leaned over and told him. And then he leaned -around me and asked her. - -Mr. DULLES. He did what? - -Mrs. DAVIS. He leaned around--he was behind me, and asked her. - -Mr. DULLES. I see. - -Mrs. DAVIS. I sort of set up where he could talk to her. - -Mr. DULLES. And did you identify the man by number or by pointing? - -Mrs. DAVIS. By number. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you remember what number it was? - -Mrs. DAVIS. It was number 2. From the left. - -Mr. DULLES. Have you any questions? - -Representative FORD. Did you whisper this information to the man behind -you? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we were all sitting in a line, and he was sitting on -this side of me. He just leaned over and asked me which one I thought -it was. - -Representative FORD. He was sitting on your right? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Representative FORD. And you turned to your right and told him? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. And your sister-in-law was sitting on your left? - -Mrs. DAVIS. On the other side, yes. - -Representative FORD. When you spoke to him, you were speaking away from -her? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Did you speak in a loud voice or a whisper? - -Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; very quietly. - -Representative FORD. You think your sister-in-law heard you say the -number? - -Mrs. DAVIS. I don't know. - -Mr DULLES. Mr. Attorney General, have you any questions? - -Mr. CARR. Thank you, I do not. - -Mr. MURRAY. I have no questions. - -Mr. BELIN. I think the record should show that although the witness did -not receive the letter notifying her of our request for an appearance, -we mailed it to her last known address at 400 East 10th Street, and the -letter came back here. But the notice was mailed to the witness. It was -just that it was not forwarded to where she now lives in Athens. - -Mr. DULLES. You had moved from this house where these incidents took -place? - -Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. DULLES. You are excused. Thank you very much. - -Mr. BALL. Our next witness is Mr. Ted Callaway. - - -TESTIMONY OF TED CALLAWAY - -Mr. DULLES. Mr. Callaway, in the absence of the Chief Justice, I am -presiding over the meeting of the Commission this morning. - -Would you kindly raise your right hand? - -Do you swear that the testimony that you will give to this Commission -is the truth, the whole truth, so help you God? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. And nothing but the truth? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. That is correct. - -Mr. DULLES. You may be seated. - -Mr. Ball, will you proceed? - -Mr. BALL. Mr. Callaway, we are investigating the assassination of -President Kennedy. We are going to ask you questions with regard to -what you saw on the day of November 22, 1963, in Dallas. - -Where do you live? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. 805 West Eighth. - -Mr. BALL. What is your business? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Car salesman. - -Mr. BALL. We would like to know something about your background. We ask -most of the witnesses these questions. - -Where were you born? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. In Dallas. - -Mr. BALL. Were you raised in Dallas? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Went to school in Dallas? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How old are you? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Forty. - -Mr. BALL. How far through school did you go? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Two years of college. - -Mr. BALL. What college? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. S.M.U. - -Mr. BALL. And what did you do after you got out of college? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. I worked part time as a clothing salesman downtown, and -then my uncle was a painter, and I worked for him for awhile. Then I -went back in the Marines for 3 years. - -And I have been selling cars since '56. - -Mr. BALL. You are a used-car salesman? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you employed--have you had any trouble with the -police of any sort? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. No. - -Mr. BALL. Any difficulty at all in your life? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. No, sir; never. - -Mr. BALL. You were discharged from the Marines, were you? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What year? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. 1954. - -Mr. BALL. Received an honorable discharge from the service? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, where were you working? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. At Harris Bros., auto sales. - -Mr. BALL. And what was your job? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. I was used-car manager. - -Mr. BALL. Now, Harris Bros. Auto Sales is located where? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. 501 East Jefferson. - -Mr. BALL. Where is that from 10th and Patton? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Just one block. - -Mr. BALL. One block south? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What corner? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. It would be on the northeast corner. - -Mr. BALL. So that we can orient ourselves from 10th and Patton--I have -marked this diagram as Commission Exhibit 537. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 537 for -identification.) - -Mr. BALL. Now, Mr. Callaway, will you, on 537, take this and mark the -location of the used car lot with an "X"? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. All right, sir. - -Right here. - -Mr. BALL. The "X" marks the position of the used-car lot? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, Mr. Callaway, around 1:15 or so of that day, where were -you? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. I was standing on the front porch of our office. - -Mr. BALL. That is at 401 East Jefferson? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. No; 501. - -Mr. BALL. I will show you a picture which we will mark as 538. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 538 for -identification.) - -Mr. BALL. Does this show a picture of the office? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. That is it. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you went down there one day last week to have some -pictures taken. - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you attempt to stand in the same place you were at the -time? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where you were standing November 22d around 1 o'clock or so? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did you hear at that time? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. I heard what sounded to me like five pistol shots. - -Mr. BALL. Five pistol shots? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Five shots, yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. From the sound, could you tell the source of the sound? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir, I could tell it was back of the lot over toward -10th Street. - -Mr. BALL. And what did you do? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. I ran out to the sidewalk on Patton. - -Mr. BALL. And what did you see? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Well, I could see--I was still--before I got to the -sidewalk, I could see this taxicab parked down on Patton. I saw the -cabdriver beside his cab, and saw a man cutting from one side of the -street to the other. That would be the east side of Patton and over to -the west side of Patton. And he was running. And he had a gun in his -hand, his right hand. - -Mr. BALL. And how was he holding the gun? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. We used to say in the Marine Corps in a raised pistol -position. - -Mr. BALL. That would be with the muzzle pointed upward, and with the -arm bent at the elbow, is that right? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir; just like this. - -Mr. BALL. I have a picture here, 539. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 539 for -identification.) - -Mr. BALL. When this picture was taken, did you try to represent the -place you were standing when you saw the man? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How did you get there? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. I ran. - -Mr. BALL. You ran from the place on the porch, is that right? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. That is right. From right here, to there. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you were at the place shown on 538, on the porch? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And when you heard the shots, what did you do? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. I just hurried--I don't know whether I really ran or not. -But I hurried off the side of this porch and came to this position. - -Mr. BALL. All right. When you came to this position, you say you saw a -taxicab? - -Mr. DULLES. Where is this position on this chart? Right here? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. It would be about right here. I come off the porch here. - -Mr. DULLES. Point 29? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You saw a taxicab where, on photo 29? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Right here. - -Mr. BALL. Let's mark an arrow there, about where you saw the taxicab. -The arrow marks the position of the taxicab. You saw a man? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. He was crossing Patton? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Was that to the south or the north of the taxicab? Closer to -you than the taxicab? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Was he running or walking? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. He was running. - -Mr. BALL. And where were you when you noticed he had the gun? Or where -was he when you noticed he had the gun? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. When I first saw the gun, he had already crossed from -here to here and was coming up this sidewalk. - -Mr. BALL. Coming up the sidewalk on which side of Patton? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. West side of Patton. - -Mr. BALL. And did he continue to come? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And did you say anything to him? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What did you say? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. I hollered "Hey, man, what the hell is going on?" When he -was right along here. - -Mr. BALL. Make a mark there where he was when you yelled, "What the -hell is going on?" "X" marks the place where the man with the gun was -when you yelled at him? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. That is right. - -Mr. DULLES. Would you mark it on this chart, too--Exhibit 537? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Right along here--about 27. I guess. That would be it. -You see, here is where I was, sir. And then he was right there when I -hollered at him. - -Mr. DULLES. I don't get this. There is an alleyway there, apparently. - -Mr. CALLAWAY. That is right. - -Mr. DULLES. But here is where the squad car was. - -Mr. CALLAWAY. That is right. - -Mr. DULLES. And here is where the cab was. - -Mr. CALLAWAY. That is right. - -Mr. DULLES. He had come all the way down? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. He had come from there through this yard and cut behind -this taxicab, over to this side of the street. - -Mr. DULLES. So he was there, then? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. No, sir. I didn't holler at him until he came up to here. -He was running up this sidewalk. - -Mr. DULLES. He was going south on Patton? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. On the west side of the street. - -Representative FORD. You saw him run from about the taxicab---- - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Across the street, up this sidewalk. - -Mr. DULLES. About how far is that? Fifty feet or more? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Oh, it is more than that. From here down to there, I -think is about 300 feet. - -Mr. BALL. Mark on this diagram, which is 537, where the man was, and -the course he took. - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Well, now, when I first saw him he was right here. Then -he came across here, down this way. - -Mr. BALL. Down to the point where you spoke to him? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. That is right. - -Mr. BALL. What did he do when you hollered at him? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. He slowed his pace, almost halted for a minute. And he -said something to me, which I could not understand. And then kind of -shrugged his shoulders, and kept on going. - -Mr. BALL. Show the course he took on the map, if you will. - -Mr. CALLAWAY. All right. - -Right on down here, and he cut through this front yard. - -Mr. BALL. And where was he when you last saw him? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Right here. - -Mr. BALL. Right at that point? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Now, the first "X" marks the position of the parking lot--we -will mark that 1. The place of the taxicab we will mark as 2. The place -where the man was with the gun when you yelled at him, we will mark -that as 3. The last place you saw the man, that we will mark 4. - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. All right. Now---- - -Mr. DULLES. May I ask what course he was taking when you last saw him? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. He was going west on Jefferson Street. - -Mr. DULLES. West on Jefferson Street? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. I hollered to this guy behind--B. D. Searcy. - -Mr. BALL. What did you say to Mr. Searcy? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. I told him to keep an eye on that guy, I says, "Keep an -eye on that guy, follow him. I am going to go down there and see what -is going on." So I ran, a good hard run, from here down around the -corner. - -Mr. BALL. 10th and Patton? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. When you got there what did you see? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. I saw a squad car, and by that time there was four or -five people that had gathered, a couple of cars had stopped. Then I -saw--I went on up to the squad car and saw the police officer lying -in the street. I see he had been shot in the head. So the first thing -I did, I ran over to the squad car. I didn't know whether anybody -reported it or not. So I got on the police radio and called them, and -told them a man had been shot, told them the location, I thought the -officer was dead. They said we know about it, stay off the air, so I -went back. - -By this time an ambulance was coming. The officer was laying on his -left side, his pistol was underneath him. I kind of rolled him over and -took his gun out from under him. The people wonder whether he ever got -his pistol out of his holster. He did. - -Mr. BALL. The pistol was out of the holster? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir; out of the holster, and it was unsnapped. It -was on his right side. He was laying with the gun under him. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. I picked the gun up and laid it on the hood of the squad -car, and then someone put it in the front seat of the squad car. Then -after I helped load Officer Tippit in the ambulance, I got the gun out -of the car and told this cabdriver, I said, "You saw the guy didn't -you?" He said, yes. - -I said, "If he is going up Jefferson, he can't be very far. Let's see -if we can find him." So I went with Scoggins in the taxicab, went up to -10th, Crawford, from Crawford up to Jefferson, and down Jefferson to -Beckley. And we turned on Beckley. If we had kept going up Jefferson, -we probably--there is a good chance we would have seen him, because he -was headed right towards the Texas Theatre. But then we circled around -several blocks, and ended up coming back to where it happened. - -Mr. BALL. And the ambulance--had the ambulance been there by that time? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Oh, yes; the ambulance already left before I ever left -with the cabdriver. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go down to the police station later? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. That evening. - -Mr. BALL. What time? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. I think it was around 6:30 or 7 o'clock. I remember it -was after dark. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go down there alone? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. No. I went with Sam Guinyard, a colored porter of ours. -He saw him, also. - -(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.) - -Mr. CALLAWAY. We drove down. Officer--Detective Jim Leavelle met us, -and took us into this room where they showed us the lineup. - -Mr. BALL. Now, before you went down there, had you seen any newspaper -accounts of this incident? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. No, sir; I had been out there on the lot. I hadn't seen a -newspaper, hadn't even heard a radio, really. - -Mr. BALL. Had you seen any television? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Had you seen a picture of a man? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. No. - -Mr. BALL. The officer show you any pictures? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You went into a police lineup, in a room where they had a -lineup of men? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. How many? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Four. - -Mr. BALL. And were they all the same size, or different sizes? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. They were about the same build, but the man that I -identified was the shortest one of the bunch. - -Mr. BALL. Were they anywhere near the same age? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. They were about the same age, yes, sir. They looked--you -know. - -Mr. BALL. And you say you identified a man. How did you do that? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Well---- - -Mr. BALL. Tell us what happened. - -Mr. CALLAWAY. We first went into the room. There was Jim Leavelle, the -detective, Sam Guinyard, and then this busdriver and myself. We waited -down there for probably 20 or 30 minutes. And Jim told us, "When I show -you these guys, be sure, take your time, see if you can make a positive -identification." - -Mr. BALL. Had you known him before? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. No. And he said, "We want to be sure, we want to try to -wrap him up real tight on killing this officer. We think he is the same -one that shot the President. But if we can wrap him up tight on killing -this officer, we have got him." So they brought four men in. - -I stepped to the back of the room, so I could kind of see him from the -same distance which I had seen him before. And when he came out, I knew -him. - -Mr. BALL. You mean he looked like the same man? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. About what distance was he away from you--the closest that he -ever was to you? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. About 56 feet. - -Mr. BALL. You measured that, did you? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Last Saturday morning? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Measured it with a tape measure? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did he have the same clothes on in the lineup--did the man -have the same clothes? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. He had the same trousers and shirt, but he didn't have -his jacket on. He had ditched his jacket. - -Mr. BALL. What kind--when you talked to the police officers before you -saw this man, did you give them a description of the clothing he had on? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did you tell them you saw? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. I told them he had some dark trousers and a light tannish -gray windbreaker jacket, and I told him that he was fair complexion, -dark hair. - -Mr. BALL. Tell them the size? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes; I told them--I think I told them about 5'10". - -Mr. DULLES. Did you see his front face at any time, or did you only -have a side view of him? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. He looked right at me, sir. When I called to him, he -looked right at me. - -Mr. DULLES. You saw front face? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. I have a jacket here--Commission's Exhibit No. 162. Does this -look anything like the jacket that the man had on that you saw across -the street with a gun? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes; it sure does. Yes, that is the same type jacket. -Actually, I thought it had a little more tan to it. - -Mr. BALL. Same type? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. I show you a shirt, 150. Does it look anything like the shirt -he had on under the jacket? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Sir, when I saw him he didn't have--I couldn't see this -shirt. I saw--he had it open. That shirt was open, and I could see his -white T-shirt underneath. - -Mr. BALL. He had a white T-shirt underneath? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes. That is the shirt he had on in the lineup that night. - -Mr. BALL. Was he fat or thin? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. He was just---- - -Mr. BALL. I mean the man you saw across the street? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Just a nice athletic type size boy, I mean. Neither fat -nor thin. - -Mr. BALL. What did you estimate his weight when you talked to the -officer before the lineup? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. I told him it looked to me like around 160 pounds. - -Mr. DULLES. How fast was he going when you hailed him? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Just a good steady trot, not real fast. - -Mr. DULLES. He was not walking and not running--it was a trot? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. A trot; yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. He stopped? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Almost. He slowed down, like a guy is trotting along, and -he almost stopped, and kept going. - -Mr. DULLES. And he looked at you? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Did he say anything? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir; he said something, but I could not understand -it. - -Mr. DULLES. You could not understand what he said? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. That is right; yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. And then did he resume his progress at a trot? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever ask Searcy if he followed him? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. He didn't follow him. - -He said something about "Follow him, hell. That man will kill you. He -has a gun." - -So instead of following him, he went back over and got behind the -office building. - -Mr. DULLES. Did he see him at any time? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes; he saw him the same time I did; yes, sir. I never -could figure out why he didn't just follow that man. You could follow -50 yards behind him and keep a guy in sight. Chances are you wouldn't -get killed 50 yards away. - -Mr. DULLES. Had you had previous military service? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir; I was in the Marine Corps 6 years, World War -II, and during Korea. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you ever tangle with the law in any way? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. No, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. What years were you in the Marine Corps? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. 1942 through '45, and then '51 through '54. - -Mr. DULLES. Were you in Korea? - -Mr. CALLAWAY. No, sir; I didn't go to Korea. I was at Camp Pendleton as -a troop trainer. - -Mr. DULLES. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. DULLES. Back on the record. - -Mr. BALL. I would like to offer to Exhibit 539, inclusive. - -Mr. DULLES. Can you tell me what the numbers are? - -Mr. BALL. 537, 538, and 539. - -Mr. DULLES. Exhibits 537, 538, and 539 previously identified will now -be admitted in evidence. - -(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission -Exhibits Nos. 537 through 539 were received in evidence.) - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much. We appreciate your coming. - -(Whereupon, at 12:40 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -_Monday, March 30, 1964_ - -TESTIMONY OF DR. CHARLES JAMES CARRICO AND DR. MALCOLM OLIVER PERRY - -The President's Commission met at 9:10 a.m. on March 30, 1964, at 200 -Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. - -Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Hale -Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, John J. McCloy, and Allen W. -Dulles, members. - -Also present were Arlen Specter, assistant counsel; Charles Murray, -observer; and Dean Robert G. Storey, special counsel to the attorney -general of Texas. - - -TESTIMONY OF DR. CHARLES JAMES CARRICO - -The CHAIRMAN. All right, Dr. Carrico, you know the reason why we are -here, what we are investigating. - -If you will raise your right hand, please, and be sworn, sir. - -You solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission shall -be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you -God? - -Dr. CARRICO. I do. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Specter will conduct the examination. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Carrico, will you state your full name for the record -please? - -Dr. CARRICO. Charles James Carrico. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is your address, Dr. Carrico? - -Dr. CARRICO. Home address? - -Mr. SPECTER. Please. - -Dr. CARRICO. It is 2605 Ridgwood in Irving. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your professional address? - -Dr. CARRICO. Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. SPECTER. How old are you, sir? - -Dr. CARRICO. 28. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly your educational background? - -Dr. CARRICO. I attended grade school and high school in Denton, Tex.; -received a Bachelor of Science in Chemistry from North Texas State -University in 1947; received my M.D. from the University of Texas -Southwestern Medical School in 1961; served an internship at Parkland -Memorial Hospital from 1961 to 1962; and then did a year of fellowship -at the surgery department at Southwestern Medical School, followed by -my surgery residency at Parkland Hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed to practice medicine in the State of -Texas, Dr. Carrico? - -Dr. CARRICO. Yes; I am. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you board certified at the present time or are you -working toward the board certification in surgery? - -Dr. CARRICO. I am engaged in surgery residency which will qualify me -for board certification. - -Mr. SPECTER. What experience have you had, if any, with gunshot wounds? - -Dr. CARRICO. In the emergency room at Parkland, during my residence -school and internship and residency, we have seen a fair number of -gunshot wounds. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could you approximate the number of gunshot wounds you -have treated in the course of those duties? - -Dr. CARRICO. In all probably 150, 200, something in that range. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties at Parkland Memorial Hospital on -November 22, 1963? - -Dr. CARRICO. At that time I was assigned to the elective surgery -service, which is the general surgery service treating the usual -surgical cases. I was in the emergency room evaluating some patient for -admission. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were you doing specifically in the neighborhood of -12:30 p.m. on that day? - -Dr. CARRICO. At that time I had been called to the emergency room to -evaluate a patient for admission to the hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you notified that an emergency case involving -President Kennedy was en route to the hospital? - -Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the time that you were -notified that President Kennedy was en route to the hospital? - -Dr. CARRICO. Shortly after 12:30 is the best I can do. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long thereafter was it that he actually did arrive at -Parkland, to the best of your recollection? - -Dr. CARRICO. Within 2 minutes approximately. - -Mr. SPECTER. And precisely where were you at Parkland when you first -observed him? - -Dr. CARRICO. When I first observed him I was in the emergency room, -seeing--actually Governor Connally had been brought in first, as you -know, Dr. Dulany and I had gone to care for Governor Connally and when -the President was brought in I left Governor Connally and went to care -for the President. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe briefly the physical layout of Parkland -with respect to the point where emergency cases are brought up to the -building and the general layout of the building into the emergency room. - -Dr. CARRICO. The emergency entrance is at the back of the building. -There is an ambulance ramp. Then immediately adjacent to the ambulance -ramp are, of course, double doors, swinging doors and a corridor which -is approximately 30 feet long and empties directly into the emergency -room. - -Then inside the emergency room are several areas, the surgical area -consists of about eight booths for treating, examination and treatment -of patients, and four large emergency operating rooms. - -Two of these are specifically set aside for acutely ill, severely ill, -patients and these are referred to as trauma rooms. - -Mr. SPECTER. And were these trauma rooms used in connection with the -treatment of President Kennedy and Governor Connally? - -Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What precisely was the point where you met at his arrival? - -Dr. CARRICO. The President was being wheeled into trauma room one when -I saw him. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who else, if anyone, was present at that time? - -Dr. CARRICO. At that time, Dr. Don Curtis, Martin White. - -The CHAIRMAN. Was he a doctor, too? - -Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir; Miss Bowron. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who is Miss Bowron? - -Dr. CARRICO. She is one of the nurses on duty at the emergency room. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who was the first doctor to actually see the President? - -Dr. CARRICO. I was. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, what did you observe as to the condition of President -Kennedy when you first saw him? - -Dr. CARRICO. He was on an ambulance cart, emergency cart, rather. His -color was blue white, ashen. He had slow agonal respiration, spasmodic -respirations without any coordination. He was making no voluntary -movements. His eyes were open, pupils were seen to be dilated and later -were seen not to react to light. This was the initial impression. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the status of his pulse at the time of arrival? - -Dr. CARRICO. He had no palpable pulse. - -Mr. SPECTER. And was he making any movements at the time of arrival? - -Dr. CARRICO. No voluntary movements, only the spasmodic respirations. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was any heartbeat noted at his arrival? - -Dr. CARRICO. After these initial observations we opened his shirt, -coat, listened very briefly to his chest, heard a few sounds which we -felt to be heartbeats and then proceeded with the remainder of the -examination. - -Mr. SPECTER. In your opinion was President Kennedy alive or dead on his -arrival at Parkland. - -Dr. CARRICO. From a medical standpoint I suppose he was still alive in -that he did still have a heartbeat? - -Mr. SPECTER. What action, if any, was taken with respect to the removal -of President Kennedy's clothing? - -Dr. CARRICO. As I said after I had opened his shirt and coat, I -proceeded with the examination and the nurses removed his clothing as -is the usual procedure. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was President Kennedy wearing a back brace? - -Dr. CARRICO. Yes; he was. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe as precisely as you can that back brace? - -Dr. CARRICO. As I recall, this was a white cotton or some sort of fiber -standard brace with stays and corset, in a corset-type arrangement and -buckles. - -Mr. SPECTER. How far up on his body did it come? - -Dr. CARRICO. Just below his umbilicus, as I recall. - -Mr. SPECTER. How far down on his body did it go? - -Dr. CARRICO. I did not examine below his belt at that time. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you at any time examine below his belt? - -Dr. CARRICO. I did not; no, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know if anyone else did? - -Dr. CARRICO. Not in a formal manner. - -Mr. SPECTER. What action did you take by way of treating President -Kennedy on his arrival? - -Dr. CARRICO. After what we have described we completed an initial -emergency examination, which consisted of, as we have already said, -his color, his pulse, we felt his back, determined there were no -large wounds which would be an immediate threat to life there. Looked -very briefly at the head wound and then because of his inadequate -respirations inserted an endotracheal tube to attempt to support these -respirations. - -Mr. SPECTER. Specifically what did you do with respect to the back, Dr. -Carrico? - -Dr. CARRICO. This is a routine examination of critically ill patients -where you haven't got time to examine him fully. I just placed my hands -just above the belt, but in this case just above the brace, and ran my -hands up his back. - -Mr. SPECTER. To what point on his body? - -Dr. CARRICO. All the way up to his neck very briefly. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you feel by that? - -Dr. CARRICO. I felt nothing other than the blood and debris. There was -no large wound there. - -Mr. SPECTER. What source did you attribute the blood to at that time? - -Dr. CARRICO. As it could have come from the head wound, and it -certainly could have been a back wound, but there was no way to tell -whether this blood would have come from a back wound and not from his -head. - -Mr. SPECTER. What action did you next take then? - -Dr. CARRICO. At that time the endotracheal tube was inserted, using a -curved laryngoscopic blade, inserting an endotracheal tube, it was seen -there were some contusions, hematoma to the right of the larynx, with -a minimal deviation of the larynx to the left, and ragged tissue below -indicating tracheal injury. - -The tube was inserted past this injury, and the cuff inflater was -connected to a Bennett machine which is a respiratory assistor using -positive pressure. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe briefly what you mean in lay terms by a -cuffed endotracheal tube? - -Dr. CARRICO. This is a plastic tube which is inserted into the trachea, -into the windpipe, to allow an adequate airway, adequate breathing. The -cuff is a small latex cuff which should prevent leakage of air around -the tube, thus insuring an adequate airway. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you continue, then, to describe what efforts you made -to revive the President. - -Dr. CARRICO. After the endotracheal tube was inserted and connected, -I listened briefly to his chest, respirations were better but still -inadequate. - -Dr. Perry arrived, and because of the inadequate respirations the -presence of a tracheal injury, advised that the chest tube was to be -inserted, this was done by some of the other physicians in the room. - -At the same time we had been getting the airway inserted Dr. Curtis -and Dr. White were doing a cutdown, venous section using polyethylene -catheters through which fluid, medicine and blood could be administered. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe in lay language what you mean by a -cutdown in relationship to what they did in this case? - -Dr. CARRICO. This was a small incision over his ankle and a tube was -inserted into one of his veins through which blood could be given, -fluid. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is the general purpose of that to maintain a circulatory -system? - -Dr. CARRICO. Right. - -Mr. SPECTER. In wounded parties? - -Dr. CARRICO. Yes. - -(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you now proceed again to describe what else was done -for the President in an effort to save his life? - -Dr. CARRICO. Sure. Dr. Perry then took over supervision and treatment, -and the chest tubes were inserted, another cutdown was done by Dr. -Jones on the President's arm. - -Fluid, as I said, was given, blood was given, hydrocortisone was given. -Dr. Clark, the chief neurosurgeon, Dr. Bashour, cardiologist, was there -or arrived, and a cardiac monitor was attached and although I never saw -any electro-activity, Dr. Clark said there was some electrical activity -of the heart which means he was still trying to---- - -Mr. SPECTER. What is Dr. Clark's position in the hospital? - -Dr. CARRICO. He is chief of the neurosurgery department and professor -of the neurosurgery. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Carrico, will you continue to tell us then what -treatment you rendered the President? - -Dr. CARRICO. When this electrocardiac activity ceased, close cardiac -massage was begun. Using this, and fluids and airway we were able -to maintain fairly good color, apparently fairly good peripheral -circulation as monitored by carotid and radial pulses for a period of -time. These efforts were abandoned when it was determined by Dr. Clark -that there was no continued cardiac response. There was no cerebral -response, that is the pupils remained dilated and fixed; there was -evidence of anoxia. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe in lay language what anoxia means? - -Dr. CARRICO. No oxygen. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was cardiac massage applied in this situation? - -Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir; it was, excellent cardiac massage. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were bloods administered to the President? - -Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir. - -(At this point, Mr. Dulles entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Carrico, was any action taken with respect to the -adrenalin insufficiency of President Kennedy? - -Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir; he was given 300 milligrams of hydrocortisone -which is an adrenal hormone. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what was the reason for the administration of that -drug? - -Dr. CARRICO. It was recalled that the President had been said to have -adrenal insufficiency. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, at what time was the death of the President -pronounced, Doctor? - -Dr. CARRICO. At 1 o'clock. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who pronounced the death of the President? - -Dr. CARRICO. Dr. Clark, I believe. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was that a precise time fixed or a general time fixed for -the point of death? - -Dr. CARRICO. This was a general time, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What, in your opinion, was the cause of death? - -Dr. CARRICO. The head wound, the head injury. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe as specifically as you can the head -wound which you have already mentioned briefly? - -Dr. CARRICO. Sure. - -This was a 5- by 71-cm defect in the posterior skull, the occipital -region. There was an absence of the calvarium or skull in this area, -with shredded tissue, brain tissue present and initially considerable -slow oozing. Then after we established some circulation there was more -profuse bleeding from this wound. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was any other wound observed on the head in addition to -this large opening where the skull was absent? - -Dr. CARRICO. No other wound on the head. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any opportunity specifically to look for a -small wound which was below the large opening of the skull on the right -side of the head? - -Dr. CARRICO. No, sir; at least initially there was no time to examine -the patient completely for all small wounds. As we said before, this -was an acutely ill patient and all we had time to do was to determine -what things were life-threatening right then and attempt to resuscitate -him and after which a more complete examination would be carried out -and we didn't have time to examine for other wounds. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was such a more complete examination ever carried out by -the doctors in Parkland? - -Dr. CARRICO. No, sir; not in my presence. - -Mr. SPECTER. Why not? - -Dr. CARRICO. As we said initially this was an acute emergency situation -and there was not time initially and when the cardiac massage was done -this prevented any further examination during this time this was being -done. After the President was pronounced dead his wife was there, he -was the President, and we felt certainly that complete examination -would be carried out and no one had the heart, I believe, to examine -him then. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe, as specifically as you can then, the -neck wounds which you heretofore mentioned briefly? - -Dr. CARRICO. There was a small wound, 5- to 8-mm. in size, located in -the lower third of the neck, below the thyroid cartilage, the Adams -apple. - -Mr. DULLES. Will you show us about where it was? - -Dr. CARRICO. Just about where your tie would be. - -Mr. DULLES. Where did it enter? - -Dr. CARRICO. It entered? - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. - -Dr. CARRICO. At the time we did not know---- - -Mr. DULLES. I see. - -Dr. CARRICO. The entrance. All we knew this was a small wound here. - -Mr. DULLES. I see. And you put your hand right above where your tie is? - -Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir; just where the tie---- - -Mr. DULLES. A little bit to the left. - -Dr. CARRICO. To the right. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes; to the right. - -Dr. CARRICO. Yes. And this wound was fairly round, had no jagged edges, -no evidence of powder burns, and so forth. - -Representative FORD. No evidence of powder burns? - -Dr. CARRICO. So far as I know. - -Representative FORD. In the front? - -Dr. CARRICO. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described that wound as specifically as you -can based upon your observations at the time? - -Dr. CARRICO. I believe so. - -Mr. SPECTER. And your recollection at the time of those observations? - -Dr. CARRICO. Yes; an even round wound. - -Mr. DULLES. You felt this wound in the neck was not a fatal wound? - -Dr. CARRICO. That is right. - -Mr. SPECTER. That is, absent the head wound, would the President have -survived the wound which was present on his neck? - -Dr. CARRICO. I think very likely he would have. - -Mr. SPECTER. Based on your observations on the neck wound alone did -you have a sufficient basis to form an opinion as to whether it was an -entrance or an exit wound? - -Dr. CARRICO. No, sir; we did not. Not having completely evaluated all -the wounds, traced out the course of the bullets, this wound would have -been compatible with either entrance or exit wound depending upon the -size, the velocity, the tissue structure and so forth. - -Mr. SPECTER. Permit me to add some facts which I shall ask you to -assume as being true for purposes of having you express an opinion. - -First of all, assume that the President was struck by a 6.5 mm. -copper-jacketed bullet from a rifle having a muzzle velocity of -approximately 2,000 feet per second at a time when the President was -approximately 160 to 250 feet from the weapon, with the President being -struck from the rear at a downward angle of approximately 45 degrees, -being struck on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper -border of the scapula 14 centimeters from the tip of the right acromion -process and 14 centimeters below the tip of the right mastoid process. - -Assume further that the missile passed through the body of the -President striking no bones, traversing the neck and sliding between -the large muscles in the posterior aspect of the President's body -through a fascia channel without violating the pleural cavity, but -bruising only the apex of the right pleural cavity and bruising the -most apical portion of the right lung, then causing a hematoma to the -right of the larynx which you have described, and creating a jagged -wound in the trachea, then exiting precisely at the point where you -observe the puncture wound to exist. - -Now based on those facts was the appearance of the wound in your -opinion consistent with being an exit wound? - -Dr. CARRICO. It certainly was. It could have been under the -circumstances. - -Mr. SPECTER. And assuming that all the facts which I have given you to -be true, do you have an opinion with a reasonable degree of medical -certainty as to whether, in fact, the wound was an entrance wound or an -exit wound? - -Dr. CARRICO. With those facts and the fact as I understand it no other -bullet was found this would be, this was, I believe, was an exit wound. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were any bullets found in the President's body by the -doctors at Parkland? - -Dr. CARRICO. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was the President's clothing ever examined by you, Dr. -Carrico? - -Dr. CARRICO. No, sir; it was not. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the reason for no examination of the clothing? - -Dr. CARRICO. Again in the emergency situation the nurses removed the -clothing after we had initially unbuttoned enough to get a look at -him, at his chest, and as the routine is set up, the nurses remove the -clothing and we just don't take time to look at it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was the President's body then ever turned over at any -point by you or any of the other doctors at Parkland? - -Dr. CARRICO. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was President Kennedy lying on the emergency stretcher -from the time he was brought into trauma room one until the treatment -at Parkland Hospital was concluded? - -Dr. CARRICO. Yes; he was. - -Mr. SPECTER. At what time was that treatment concluded, to the best of -your recollection? - -Dr. CARRICO. At about 1 o'clock. - -Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did you leave the trauma room -where the President was brought? - -Dr. CARRICO. I left right at one when we decided that he was dead. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did the other doctors leave at the same time or did -any remain in the trauma room? - -Dr. CARRICO. I left before some of the other doctors, I do not remember -specifically who was there. I believe Dr. Baxter was, Dr. Jenkins was -still there, I believe. And I think Dr. Perry was. - -Mr. SPECTER. You have described a number of doctors in the course of -your testimony up to this point. Would you state what other doctors -were present during the time the President was treated, to the best of -your recollection? - -Dr. CARRICO. Well, I have already mentioned Dr. Don Curtis, the surgery -resident; Martin White, an interne; Dr. Perry was there, Dr. Baxter, -Dr. McClelland, a member of the surgery staff; Dr. Ronald Jones, -chief surgery resident; Dr. Jenkins, chief of anesthesia; several -other physicians whose names I can't remember at the present. Admiral -Burkley, I believe was his name, the President's physician, was there -as soon as he got to the hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your view, Dr. Carrico, as to how many bullets -struck the President? - -Dr. CARRICO. At the time of the initial examination I really had no -view. In view of what we have been told by you, and the Commission, two -bullets would be my opinion. - -Mr. SPECTER. Based on the additional facts which I have asked you to -assume---- - -Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And also based on the autopsy report from Bethesda---- - -Dr. CARRICO. Right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Which was made available to you by me. - -Dr. CARRICO. Right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, who, if any one, has talked to you representing the -Federal Government in connection with the treatment which you assisted -in rendering President Kennedy at Parkland on November 22? - -Dr. CARRICO. We have talked to some representatives of the Secret -Service, whose names I do not remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions, if there was more than one? - -Dr. CARRICO. Two occasions, a fairly long interview shortly after the -President's death, and then approximately a month or so afterwards a -very short interview. - -Representative FORD. When you say shortly after the President's death, -you mean that day? - -Dr. CARRICO. No, sir. Within a week maybe. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what was the substance of the first interview with the -Secret Service which you have described as occurring within 1 week? - -Dr. CARRICO. This was a meeting in Dr. Shires' office, Dr. Shires, Dr. -Perry, Dr. McClelland and myself, and two representatives of the Secret -Service in which we went over the treatment. - -They discussed the autopsy findings as I recall it, with Dr. Shires, -and reviewed the treatment with him, essentially. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what questions were you asked specifically at that -time, if any? - -Dr. CARRICO. I don't recall any specific questions I was asked. In -general, I was asked some questions pertaining to his treatment, to the -wounds, what I thought they were, and et cetera. - -Mr. SPECTER. What opinions did you express at that time? - -Dr. CARRICO. Again, I said that on the basis of our initial -examination, this wound in his neck could have been either an entrance -or exit wound, which was what they were most concerned about, and -assuming there was a wound in the back, somewhere similar to what you -have described that this certainly would be compatible with an exit -wound. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were your statements at that time different in any respect -with the testimony which you have given here this morning? - -Dr. CARRICO. Not that I recall. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were your views at that time consistent with the findings -in the autopsy report, or did they vary in any way from the findings in -that report? - -Dr. CARRICO. As I recall, the autopsy report is exactly as I remember -it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were your opinions at that time consistent with the -findings of the autopsy report? - -Dr. CARRICO. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you identify Dr. Shires for the record, please? - -Dr. CARRICO. Dr. Shires is chief of the surgery service at Parkland, -and chairman of the Department of Surgery at Southwestern Medical -School. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, approximately when, to the best of your recollection, -did the second interview occur with the Secret Service? - -Dr. CARRICO. This was some time in February, probably about the middle -of February, and the interview consisted of the agent asking me if I -had any further information. - -I said I did not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was that the total context of the interview? - -Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, did I interview you and take your deposition in -Dallas, Tex., last Wednesday? - -Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And has that deposition transcript been made available to -you this morning? - -Dr. CARRICO. It has. - -Mr. SPECTER. And were the views you expressed to me in our conversation -before the deposition and on the record during the course of the -deposition different in any way with the testimony which you have -provided here this morning? - -Dr. CARRICO. No, sir; they were not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Carrico, have you changed your opinion in any way -concerning your observations or conclusions about the situation with -respect to President Kennedy at any time since November 22, 1963? - -Dr. CARRICO. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any notes or writings of any sort in your -possession concerning your participation in the treatment of President -Kennedy? - -Dr. CARRICO. None other than the letter to my children I mentioned to -you. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you state briefly the general nature of that for the -Commission here today, please. - -Dr. CARRICO. This is just a letter written to my children to be read by -them later, saying what happened, how I felt about it. And maybe why it -happened, and maybe it would do them some good later. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you also make a written report which was made a part -of the records of Parkland Hospital which you have identified for the -record during the deposition proceeding? - -Dr. CARRICO. Yes; I did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do those constitute the total of the writings which you -made concerning your participation in the treatment of the President? - -Dr. CARRICO. Right. - -Mr. DULLES. You spoke of a letter to your children. I don't want to -invade your privacy in this respect in any way, but is there anything -in that letter that you think would bear on our considerations here by -this Commission? - -Dr. CARRICO. No; I don't believe so. This thing doesn't mention the -treatment other than to say probably by the time they read the letter -it will be archaic. - -Mr. DULLES. You spoke about the causes of it all, I don't know -whether---- - -Dr. CARRICO. Just a little homespun philosophy. I just said that there -was a lot of extremism both in Dallas and in the Nation as a whole, and -in an attitude of extremism a warped mind can flourish much better than -in a more stable atmosphere. - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Carrico, was the nature of the treatment affected, -in your opinion, in any way by the fact that you were working on the -President of the United States? - -Dr. CARRICO. I don't believe so, sir. We have seen a large number of -acutely injured people, and acutely ill people, and the treatment -has been carried out enough that this is almost reflex, if you will. -Certainly everyone was emotionally affected. I think, if anything, the -emotional aspect made us think faster, work faster and better. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think would be -helpful to the Commission in its inquiry on the assassination of -President Kennedy? - -Dr. CARRICO. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Those conclude my questions, Mr. Chief Justice. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dulles, have you any questions to ask of the Doctor? - -Mr. DULLES. Looking back on it, do you think it was probable that death -followed almost immediately after this shot in the head? - -Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir; as I said---- - -Mr. DULLES. I was absent, I am sorry, at that time. - -Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir. Medically, I suppose you would have to say he -was alive when he came to Parkland. From a practical standpoint, I -think he was dead then. - -The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford? - -Representative FORD. When did you say that he arrived, when you first -started working on the President? - -Dr. CARRICO. It would only be a guess. Probably about 12:35. It was -about 12:30 when I got in the emergency room, and I was there 2 or 3 -minutes when we were called, and he was there within 2 or 3 minutes. - -Representative FORD. So approximately from 12:35 until 1 the President -was examined and treatment was given by you and others? - -Dr. CARRICO. Yes. - -Representative FORD. Have you read and analyzed the autopsy performed -by the authorities at Bethesda? - -Dr. CARRICO. I have not read it carefully. I have seen it. Mr. Specter -showed me parts of it, and I had seen a copy of it earlier, briefly. - -Representative FORD. Is there anything in it that you have read that -would be in conflict with your observation? - -Dr. CARRICO. Nothing at all in conflict. It certainly adds to the -observations that we made. - -Representative FORD. Have you been interviewed by the press and, if so, -when? - -Dr. CARRICO. I think I have talked to the press twice. - -Mr. Burrus, a reporter for the Dallas Times Herald, talked to me about -5 minutes, probably 3 or 4 days after the President's death, and then -a reporter from Time called about 3 or 4 weeks after the President's -death, and I talked to him for a very few minutes. - -Representative FORD. Did you make any statements in either of these -interviews that are different from the observations you have made here -this morning? - -Dr. CARRICO. Not that I recall. - -Representative FORD. That is all. - -Mr. DULLES. Mr. Chief Justice, could I--off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -The CHAIRMAN. Well, Doctor, thank you very much. We appreciate your -help. - -Dr. CARRICO. Certainly. Glad to be here. - - -TESTIMONY OF DR. MALCOLM PERRY - -The CHAIRMAN. Dr. Perry, will you be sworn now, please? - -Would you raise your right hand and be sworn, please? - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the -Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Dr. PERRY. I do. - -The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please? - -Mr. Specter will conduct the examination. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please? - -Dr. PERRY. Malcolm Oliver Perry. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your residence address? - -Dr. PERRY. 4115 Parkland, Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. SPECTER. Your professional address? - -Dr. PERRY. 5323 Harley Hines Boulevard. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is that the address of Parkland Memorial Hospital? - -Dr. PERRY. That is the address of the University of Texas Southwestern -Medical School. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is that situated immediately adjacent to Parkland Memorial -Hospital? - -Dr. PERRY. That is correct. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your age, sir? - -Dr. PERRY. 34. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession? - -Dr. PERRY. I am a physician and surgeon. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you duly licensed to practice medicine by the State -of Texas? - -Dr. PERRY. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your educational background, -please? - -Dr. PERRY. After graduation from Plano High School in 1947, I attended -the University of Texas and was duly graduated there in January of 1951 -with a degree of Bachelor of Arts. - -I subsequently graduated from the University of Texas Southwestern -Medical School in 1956 with a degree of Doctor of Medicine. I served -an internship of 12 months at Letterman Hospital in San Francisco, and -after 2 more years in the Air Force I returned to Parkland for a 4-year -residency in general surgery. - -I completed that in---- - -Mr. DULLES. Where did you serve in the Air Force, by the way? - -Dr. PERRY. I was in Spokane, Wash., Geiger Field. - -At the completion of my surgery residency in June of 1962, I was -appointed an instructor in surgery at the Southwestern Medical School. - -But in September 1962, I returned to the University of California at -San Francisco to spend a year in vascular surgery. During that time, I -took and passed my boards for the certification for the American Board -of Surgery. - -I returned to Parkland Hospital and Southwestern in September of 1963, -was appointed an assistant professor of surgery, attending surgeon and -vascular consultant for Parkland Hospital and John Smith Hospital in -Fort Worth. - -Mr. SPECTER. What experience have you had, Dr. Perry, if any, in -gunshot wounds? - -Dr. PERRY. During my period in medical school and my residency, I have -seen a large number, from 150 to 200. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties at Parkland Memorial Hospital, if -any, on November 22d, 1963? - -Dr. PERRY. On that day I had come over from the medical school for the -usual 1 o'clock rounds with the residents, and Dr. Ronald Jones and -I, he being chief surgical resident, were having dinner in the main -dining room there in the hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe how you happened to be called in to -render assistance to President Kennedy? - -Dr. PERRY. Somewhere around 12:30, and I cannot give you the time -accurately since I did not look at my watch in that particular instant, -an emergency page was put in for Dr. Tom Shires, who is chief of the -emergency surgical service in Parkland. I knew he was in Galveston -attending a meeting and giving a paper, and I asked Dr. Jones to pick -up the page to see if he or I could be of assistance. - -The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, at this time I must leave for a session at the -Supreme Court, and the hearing will continue. Congressman Ford, I am -going to ask you if you will preside in my absence. If you are obliged -to go to the Congress, Commissioner Dulles will preside, and I will be -available as soon as the Court session is over to be here with you. - -(At this point, Mr. Warren withdrew from the hearing room.) - -Representative FORD. Will you proceed, please? - -Mr. SPECTER. What action did you take after learning of the emergency -call, Dr. Perry? - -Dr. PERRY. The emergency room is one flight of stairs down from the -main dining cafeteria, so Dr. Jones and I went immediately to the -emergency room to render what assistance we could. - -Representative FORD. May I ask this: In the confirmation of the page -call, was it told to you that the President was the patient involved? - -Dr. PERRY. It was told to Dr. Jones, who picked up the page, that -President Kennedy had been shot and was being brought to Parkland. -We went down immediately to the emergency room to await his arrival. -However, he was there when we reached it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who else was present at the time you arrived on the scene -with the President? - -Dr. PERRY. When Dr. Jones and I entered the emergency room, the -place was filled with people, most of them officers and, apparently, -attendants to the Presidential procession. Dr. Carrico was in -attendance with the President in trauma room No. 1 when I walked in. -There were several other people there. Mrs. Kennedy was there with some -gentleman whom I didn't know. I have the impression there was another -physician in the room, but I cannot recall at this time who it was. -There were several nurses there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were any other doctors present besides Dr. Carrico? - -Dr. PERRY. I think there was another doctor present, but I don't know -who it was, I don't recall. - -Mr. DULLES. Can I ask a question here, Mr. Specter? - -Mr. SPECTER. Certainly. - -Mr. DULLES. What is the procedure for somebody taking command in a -situation of this kind? Who takes over and who says who should do what? -I realize it is an emergency situation. Maybe that is an improper -question. - -Dr. PERRY. No, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. But it would be very helpful to me---- - -Dr. PERRY. No, sir; it is perfectly proper. - -Mr. DULLES. In reviewing the situation to see how you acted. - -In a military situation, you have somebody who takes command. - -Dr. PERRY. We do, too. And it essentially is based on the same kind of -thing. - -Mr. DULLES. I would like to hear about that. - -If it doesn't fit in here---- - -Mr. SPECTER. It is fine. - -Dr. PERRY. It is based on rank and experience, essentially. For -example, Dr. Carrico being the senior surgical resident in the area, -at the time President Kennedy was brought in to the emergency suite, -would have done what we felt was necessary and would have assumed -control of the situation being as there were interns and probably -medical students around the area, but being senior would take it. This, -of course, catapulted me into this because I was the senior attending -staff man when I arrived and at that time Dr. Carrico has noted I took -over direction of the care since I was senior of all the people there -and being as we are surgeons, the department of surgery operates that -portion of the emergency room and directs the care of the patients. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you try to clear the room of unnecessary people? - -Dr. PERRY. This was done, not by me, but by the nurse supervisor, -I assume, but several of the people were asked to leave the room. -Generally, this is not necessary. In an instance such as this, it is a -little more difficult, as you can understand. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. - -Dr. PERRY. But this care of an acutely injured and acutely injured -patients goes on quite rapidly. Over 90,000 a year go through that -emergency room, and, as a result, people are well trained in the -performance of their duties. There is generally no problem in asking -anyone to leave the room because everyone is quite busy and they know -what they have to do and are proceeding to do it. - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much. - -Mr. SPECTER. Upon your arrival in the room, where President Kennedy was -situated, what did you observe as to his condition? - -Dr. PERRY. At the time I entered the door, Dr. Carrico was attending -him. He was attaching the Bennett apparatus to an endotracheal tube in -place to assist his respiration. - -The President was lying supine on the carriage, underneath the -overhead lamp. His shirt, coat, had been removed. There was a sheet -over his lower extremities and the lower portion of his trunk. He was -unresponsive. There was no evidence of voluntary motion. His eyes were -open, deviated up and outward, and the pupils were dilated and fixed. - -I did not detect a heart beat and was told there was no blood pressure -obtainable. - -He was, however, having ineffective spasmodic respiratory efforts. - -There was blood on the carriage. - -Mr. DULLES. What does that mean to the amateur, to the unprofessional? - -Dr. PERRY. Short, rather jerky contractions of his chest and diaphragm, -pulling for air. - -Mr. DULLES. I see. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were those respiratory efforts on his part alone or was he -being aided in his breathing at that time? - -Dr. PERRY. He had just attached the machine and at this point it was -not turned on. He was attempting to breathe. - -Mr. SPECTER. So that those efforts were being made at that juncture at -least without mechanical aid? - -Dr. PERRY. Those were spontaneous efforts on the part of the President. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you continue, then, Dr. Perry, as to what you -observed of his condition? - -Dr. PERRY. Yes, there was blood noted on the carriage and a large -avulsive wound on the right posterior cranium. - -I cannot state the size, I did not examine it at all. I just noted the -presence of lacerated brain tissue. In the lower part of the neck below -the Adams apple was a small, roughly circular wound of perhaps 5 mm. in -diameter from which blood was exuding slowly. - -I did not see any other wounds. - -I examined the chest briefly, and from the anterior portion did not see -anything. - -I pushed up the brace on the left side very briefly to feel for his -femoral pulse, but did not obtain any. - -I did no further examination because it was obvious that if any -treatment were to be carried out with any success a secure effective -airway must be obtained immediately. - -I asked Dr. Carrico if the wound on the neck was actually a wound or -had he begun a tracheotomy and he replied in the negative, that it was -a wound, and at that point---- - -Mr. DULLES. I am a little confused, I thought Dr. Carrico was absent. -That was an earlier period. - -Dr. PERRY. No, sir; he was present. - -Mr. DULLES. He was present? - -Dr. PERRY. Yes; he was present when I walked in the room and, at that -point, I asked someone to secure a tracheotomy tray but there was one -already there. Apparently Dr. Carrico had already asked them to set up -the tray. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, backtracking just a bit from the context of the -answer which you have just given, would you describe the quantity of -blood which you observed on the carriage when you first came into the -room where the President was located? - -Dr. PERRY. Mr. Specter, this is an extremely difficult thing. The -estimation of blood when it is either on the floor or on drapes or -bandages is grossly inaccurate in almost every instance. - -As you know, many hospitals have studied this extensively to try to -determine whether they were able to do it with any accuracy but they -cannot. I can just tell you there was considerable blood present on the -carriage and some on his head and some on the floor but how much, I -would hesitate to estimate. Several hundred CC's would be the closest -I could get but it could be from 200 to 1,500 and I know by experience -you cannot estimate it more accurately. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you characterize it as a very substantial or minor -blood loss? - -Dr. PERRY. A substantial blood loss. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, you mentioned the President's brace. Could you -describe that as specifically as possible? - -Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I did not examine it. I noted its presence only -in an effort to reach the femoral pulse and I pushed it up just -slightly so that I might palpate for the femoral pulse, I did no more -examination. - -Mr. SPECTER. In the course of seeking the femoral pulse, did you -observe or note an Ace bandage? - -Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. In the brace area? - -Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir. It was my impression, I saw a portion of an Ace -Bandage, an elastic supporting bandage on the right thigh. I did not -examine it at all but I just noted its presence. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did the Ace Bandage cover any portion of the President's -body that you were able to observe in addition to the right thigh? - -Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I did not go any further. I just noted its presence -right there at the junction at the hip. It could have been on the lower -trunk or the upper thigh, I don't know. I didn't care any further. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you continue to describe the resuscitative efforts -that were undertaken at that time? - -Dr. PERRY. At the beginning I had removed my coat and watch as I -entered the room and dropped it off in the corner, and as I was talking -to Dr. Carrico in regard to the neck wound, I glanced cursorily at the -head wound and noted its severe character, and then proceeded with the -tracheotomy after donning a pair of gloves. I asked that someone call -Dr. Kemp Clark, of neurosurgery, Dr. Robert McClelland, Dr. Charles -Baxter, assistant professors of surgery, to come and assist. There were -several other people in the room by this time, none of which I can -identify. I then began the tracheotomy making a transverse incision -right through the wound in the neck. - -Mr. SPECTER. Why did you elect to make the tracheotomy incision through -the wound in the neck, Dr. Perry? - -Dr. PERRY. The area of the wound, as pointed out to you in the lower -third of the neck anteriorly is customarily the spot one would -electively perform the tracheotomy. - -This is one of the safest and easiest spots to reach the trachea. In -addition the presence of the wound indicated to me there was possibly -an underlaying wound to the neck muscles in the neck, the carotid -artery or the jugular vein. If you are going to control these it is -necessary that the incision be as low, that is toward the heart or -lungs as the wound if you are going to obtain adequate control. - -Therefore, for expediency's sake I went directly to that level to -obtain control of the airway. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe, in a general way and in lay terms, the -purpose for the tracheotomy at that time? - -Dr. PERRY. Dr. Carrico had very judicially placed an endotracheal tube -but unfortunately due to the injury to the trachea, the cuff which -is an inflatable balloon on the endotracheal tube was not below the -tracheal injury and thus he could not secure the adequate airway that -you would require to maintain respiration. - -(At this point, Mr. McCloy entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, you mentioned an injury to the trachea. - -Will you describe that as precisely as you can, please? - -Dr. PERRY. Yes. Once the transverse incision through the skin and -subcutaneous tissues was made, it was necessary to separate the strap -muscles covering the anterior muscles of the windpipe and thyroid. At -that point the trachea was noted to be deviated slightly to the left -and I found it necessary to sever the exterior strap muscles on the -other side to reach the trachea. - -I noticed a small ragged laceration of the trachea on the anterior -lateral right side. I could see the endotracheal tube which had been -placed by Dr. Carrico in the wound, but there was evidence of air and -blood around the tube because I noted the cuff was just above the -injury to the trachea. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you now proceed to describe what efforts you made to -save the President's life? - -Dr. PERRY. At this point, I had entered the neck, and Dr. Baxter and -Dr. McClelland arrived shortly thereafter. I cannot describe with -accuracy their exact arrival. I only know I looked up and saw Dr. -Baxter as I began the tracheotomy and he took a pair of gloves to -assist me. - -Dr. McClelland's presence was known to me at the time he picked up an -instrument and said, "Here, I will hand it to you." - -At that point I was down in the trachea. Once the trachea had been -exposed I took the knife and incised the windpipe at the point of the -bullet injury. And asked that the endotracheal tube previously placed -by Dr. Carrico be withdrawn slightly so I could insert a tracheotomy -tube at this level. This was effected and attached to an anesthesia -machine which had been brought down by Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Giesecke for -better control of circulation. - -I noticed there was free air and blood in the right mediastinum and -although I could not see any evidence, myself any evidence, of it in -the pleura of the lung the presence of this blood in this area could be -indicative of the underlying condition. - -I asked someone to put in a chest tube to allow sealed drainage of any -blood or air which might be accumulated in the right hemothorax. - -This occurred while I was doing the tracheotomy. I did not know at the -time when I inserted the tube but I was informed subsequently that Dr. -Paul Peters, assistant professor of urology, and Dr. Charles Baxter, -previously noted in this record, inserted the chest tube and attached -it to underwater seal or drainage of the right pneumothorax. - -Mr. DULLES. How long did this tracheotomy take, approximately? - -Dr. PERRY. I don't know that for sure, Mr. Dulles. However, I have--a -matter of 3 to 5 minutes, perhaps even less. This was very--I didn't -look at the watch, I have done them at those speeds and faster when I -have had to. So I would estimate that. - -At this point also Dr. Carrico, having previously attached and -assisting with the attaching of the anesthesia machine was doing -another cut down on the right leg; Dr. Ronald Jones was doing an -additional cut down, venous section on the left arm for the insertion -of plastic cannula into veins so one may rapidly and effectively infuse -blood and fluids. These were being done. - -It is to Dr. Carrico's credit, I think he ordered the hydrocortisone -for the President having known he suffered from adrenal insufficiency -and in this particular instance being quite busy he had the presence -of mind to recall this and order what could have been a lifesaving -measure, I think. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you identify who Dr. Baxter is? - -Dr. PERRY. Yes. Dr. Charles Baxter is, when I noted when I asked for -the call, is an assistant professor of surgery also and Dr. McClelland. - -Mr. SPECTER. And is Dr. McClelland occupying a similar position at -Parkland Memorial Hospital as Dr. Baxter? - -Dr. PERRY. That is correct. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you identify Dr. Jenkins? - -Dr. PERRY. Dr. M. T. Jenkins is professor and chairman of the -department of anesthesiology and chief of the anesthesia service, and -Dr. Giesecke is assistant professor of anesthesiology at Parkland. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you now identified all of the medical personnel -whom you can recollect who were present at the time the aid was being -rendered to the President? - -Dr. PERRY. No, sir; several other people entered the room. I recall -seeing Dr. Bashour who is an associate professor of medicine and chief -of the cardiology section at Parkland. - -Dr. Don W. Seldin, who is professor and chairman of the department -of medicine, and I previously mentioned Dr. Paul Peters, assistant -professor of urology, and I believe that Dr. Jackie Hunt of the -department of anesthesiology was also there, and there were other -people, I cannot identify them, several nurses and several others. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. William Kemp Clark arrived at about that time? - -Dr. PERRY. Dr. Clark's arrival was first noted to me after the -completion of the tracheotomy, and at this point, the cardiotachyscope -had been attached to Mr. Kennedy to detect any electrical activity and -although I did not note any, being occupied, it was related to me there -was initially evidence of a spontaneous electrical activity in the -President's heart. - -However, at the completion of the tracheotomy and the institution of -the sealed tube drainage of the chest, Dr. Clark and I began external -cardiac massage. This was monitored by Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Giesecke who -informed us we were obtaining a satisfactory carotid pulse in the neck, -and someone whose name I do not know at this time, said they could also -feel a femoral pulse in the leg. We continued external cardiac massage, -I continued it as Dr. Clark examined the head wound and observed the -cardiotachyscope. The exact time interval that this took I cannot tell -you. I continued it until Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Clark informed me there -was no activity at all, in the cardiotachyscope and that there had been -no neurological or muscular response to our resuscitative effort at -all and that the wound which the President sustained of his head was a -mortal wound, and at that point we determined that he had expired and -we abandoned efforts of resuscitation. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you identify Dr. Clark's specialty for the record, -please? - -Dr. PERRY. Dr. Clark is professor and chairman of the department of -neurosurgery at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical School, -and chief of the neurosurgical services at Parkland Hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, you described a condition in the right mediastinum. -Would you elaborate on what your views were of the condition at the -time you were rendering this treatment? - -Dr. PERRY. The condition of this area? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir. - -Dr. PERRY. There was both blood, free blood and air in the right -superior mediastinum. That is the space that is located between the -lungs and the heart at that level. - -As I noted, I did not see any underlying injury of the pleura, the -coverings of the lungs or of the lungs themselves. But in the presence -of this large amount of blood in this area, one would be unable to -detect small injuries to the underlying structures. The air was -indicated by the fact that there was some frothing of this blood -present, bubbling which could have been due to the tracheal injury or -an underlying injury to the lung. - -Since the morbidity attendant upon insertion of an anterior chest tube -for sealed drainage is negligible and the morbidity which attends a -pneumothorax is considerable, I elected to have the chest tube put -in place because we were giving him positive pressure oxygen and the -possibility of inducing a tension on pneumothorax would be quite high -in such instances. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is pneumothorax? - -Dr. PERRY. Hemothorax would be blood in the free chest cavity and -pneumothorax would be air in the free chest cavity underlying collapse -of the lungs. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would that have been caused by the injury which you noted -to the President's trachea? - -Dr. PERRY. There was no evidence of a hemothorax or a pneumothorax -through my examination; only it is sufficient this could have been -observed because of the free blood in the mediastinum. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were the symptoms which excited your suspicion causable by -the injury to the trachea? - -Dr. PERRY. They were. - -Mr. SPECTER. At what time was the pronouncement of death made? - -Dr. PERRY. Approximately 1 o'clock. - -Mr. SPECTER. By whom was death announced? - -Dr. PERRY. Dr. Kemp Clark. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any special reason why it was Dr. Kemp Clark who -pronounced the President had died? - -Dr. PERRY. It was the opinion of those of us who had attended the -President that the ultimate cause of his demise was a severe injury to -his brain with subsequent loss of neurologic function and subsequent -massive loss of blood, and thus Dr. Clark, being a neurosurgeon, signed -the death certificate. - -Mr. SPECTER. In your opinion, would the President have survived the -injury which he sustained to the neck which you have described? - -Dr. PERRY. Barring the advent of complications this wound was -tolerable, and I think he would have survived it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all of the treatment which was -rendered to the President by the medical team in attendance at Parkland -Memorial Hospital. - -Dr. PERRY. In essence I have, Mr. Specter. I do not know the exact -quantities of balance salt solutions or blood that was given. I -mentioned the 300 mg. of hydrocortisone Dr. Carrico ordered and, of -course, he was given oxygen under pressure which has been previously -recorded. The quantities of substances or any other drugs I have no -knowledge of. - -Mr. SPECTER. In general you have recounted the treatment? - -Dr. PERRY. That is correct. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you now stated for the record all of the individuals -who were in attendance in treating the President that you can recollect -at this time? - -Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; I have. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you now describe as specifically as you can, the -injury which you noted in the President's head? - -Dr. PERRY. As I mentioned previously in the record, I made only a -cursory examination of the President's head. I noted a large avulsive -wound of the right parietal occipital area, in which both scalp and -portions of skull were absent, and there was severe laceration of -underlying brain tissue. My examination did not go any further than -that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you, to be specific, observe a smaller wound below the -large avulsed area which you have described? - -Dr. PERRY. I did not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there blood in that area of the President's head? - -Dr. PERRY. There was. - -Mr. SPECTER. Which might have obscured such a wound? - -Dr. PERRY. There was a considerable amount of blood at the head of the -cartilage. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you now describe as particularly as possible the -neck wound you observed? - -Dr. PERRY. This was situated in the lower anterior one-third of the -neck, approximately 5 mm. in diameter. - -It was exuding blood slowly which partially obscured it. Its edges were -neither ragged nor were they punched out, but rather clean. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described the neck wound as specifically as -you can? - -Dr. PERRY. I have. - -Mr. SPECTER. Based on your observations of the neck wound alone, do -you have a sufficient basis to form an opinion as to whether it was an -entrance wound or an exit wound, - -Dr. PERRY. No, sir. I was unable to determine that since I did not -ascertain the exact trajectory of the missile. The operative procedure -which I performed was restricted to securing an adequate airway and -insuring there was no injury to the carotid artery or jugular vein at -that level and at that point I made the procedure. - -Mr. SPECTER. Based on the appearance of the neck wound alone, could it -have been either an entrance or an exit wound? - -Dr. PERRY. It could have been either. - -Mr. SPECTER. Permit me to supply some additional facts, Dr. Perry, -which I shall ask you to assume as being true for purposes of having -you express an opinion. - -Assume first of all that the President was struck by a 6.5-mm. -copper-jacketed bullet fired from a gun having a muzzle velocity -of approximately 2,000 feet per second, with the weapon being -approximately 160 to 250 feet from the President, with the bullet -striking him at an angle of declination of approximately 45 degrees, -striking the President on the upper right posterior thorax just above -the upper border of the scapula, being 14 cm. from the tip of the -right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid -process, passing through the President's body striking no bones, -traversing the neck and sliding between the large muscles in the -posterior portion of the President's body through a fascia channel -without violating the pleural cavity but bruising the apex of the right -pleural cavity, and bruising the most apical portion of the right lung -inflicting a hematoma to the right side of the larynx, which you have -just described, and striking the trachea causing the injury which you -described, and then exiting from the hole that you have described in -the midline of the neck. - -Now, assuming those facts to be true, would the hole which you observed -in the neck of the President be consistent with an exit wound under -those circumstances? - -Dr. PERRY. Certainly would be consistent with an exit wound. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, assuming one additional fact that there was no bullet -found in the body of the President, and assuming the facts which I have -just set forth to be true, do you have an opinion as to whether the -wound which you observed in the President's neck was an entrance or an -exit wound? - -Dr. PERRY. A full jacketed bullet without deformation passing through -skin would leave a similar wound for an exit and entrance wound -and with the facts which you have made available and with these -assumptions, I believe that it was an exit wound. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have sufficient facts available to you to render -an opinion as to the cause of the injury which you observed in the -President's head? - -Dr. PERRY. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you had an opportunity to examine the autopsy report? - -Dr. PERRY. I have. - -Mr. SPECTER. And are the facts set forth in the autopsy report -consistent with your observations and views or are they inconsistent in -any way with your findings and opinions? - -Dr. PERRY. They are quite consistent and I noted initially that they -explained very nicely the circumstances as we observed them at the time. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could you elaborate on that last answer, Dr. Perry? - -Dr. PERRY. Yes. There was some considerable speculation, as you will -recall, as to whether there were one or two bullets and as to from -whence they came. Dr. Clark and I were queried extensively in respect -to this and in addition Dr. Carrico could not determine whether there -were one or two bullets from our initial examination. - -I say that because we did what was necessary in the emergency -procedure, and abandoned any efforts of examination at the termination. -I did not ascertain the trajectory of any of the missiles. As a result -I did not know whether there was evidence for 1 or 2 or even 3 bullets -entering and at the particular time it was of no importance. - -Mr. SPECTER. But based on the additional factors provided in the -autopsy report, do you have an opinion at this time as to the number of -bullets there were? - -Dr. PERRY. The wounds as described from the autopsy report and coupled -with the wounds I have observed it would appear there were two missiles -that struck the President. - -Mr. SPECTER. And based on the additional factors which I have provided -to you by way of hypothetical assumption, and the factors present in -the autopsy report from your examination of that report, what does the -source of the bullets seem to have been to you? - -Dr. PERRY. That I could not say. I can only determine their pathway, on -the basis of these reports within the President's body. - -As to their ultimate source not knowing any of the circumstances -surrounding it, I would not have any speculation. - -Mr. SPECTER. From what direction would the bullets have come based on -all of those factors? - -Dr. PERRY. The bullets would have come from behind the President based -on these factors. - -Mr. SPECTER. And from the level, from below or above the President? - -Dr. PERRY. Not having examined any of the wounds with the exception of -the anterior neck wounds, I could not say. This wound, as I noted was -about 5 mm., and roughly circular in shape. There is no way for me to -determine. - -Mr. SPECTER. Based upon a point of entrance in the body of the -President which I described to you as being 14 cm. from the right -acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process -and coupling that with your observation of the neck wound, would that -provide a sufficient basis for you to form an opinion as to the path of -the bullet, as to whether it was level, up or down? - -Dr. PERRY. Yes, it would. - -In view of the fact there was an injury to the right lateral portion -of the trachea and a wound in the neck if one were to extend a line -roughly between these two, it would be going slightly superiorly, that -is cephalad toward the head, from anterior to posterior, which would -indicate that the missile entered from slightly above and behind. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, have you been a part of or participated in any -press conferences? - -Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; I have - -Mr. SPECTER. And by whom, if anyone, were the press conferences -arranged? - -Dr. PERRY. The initial press conference, to the best of my knowledge, -was arranged by Mr. Hawkes who was identified to me as being of -the White House Press, and Mr. Steve Landregan of the hospital -administration there at Parkland, and Dr. Kemp Clark. - -They called me, I was in the operating suite at the time to assist with -the care of the Governor, and they called and asked me if it would be -possible for me to come down to a press conference. - -Mr. SPECTER. At about what time did that call come to you, Doctor? - -Dr. PERRY. I am not real sure about that but probably around 2 o'clock. - -Mr. SPECTER. What action, if any, did you take in response to that call? - -Dr. PERRY. I put in a page for Dr. Baxter and Dr. McClelland since they -were also involved, and went down to the emergency room where I met Mr. -Hawkes and Dr. Clark. And from there we went up to classrooms one and -two which had been combined into a large press room, and was packed -with gentlemen and ladies of the press. - -Mr. SPECTER. In what building was that located? - -Dr. PERRY. This was in Parkland Hospital, in the classroom section. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to identify which news media were present at -that time? - -Dr. PERRY. No, sir; there were numerous people in the room. I would -estimate maybe a hundred. - -Mr. SPECTER. What doctors spoke at that press conference? - -Dr. PERRY. Dr. Clark and I answered the questions. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who spoke first as between you and Dr. Clark? - -Dr. PERRY. I did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you state as specifically as you can the questions -which were asked of you at that time and the answers which you gave? - -Dr. PERRY. Mr. Specter, I would preface this by saying that, as you -know, I have been interviewed on numerous occasions subsequent to that -time, and I cannot recall with accuracy the questions that were asked. -They, in general, were similar to the questions that were asked here. -The press were given essentially the same, but in no detail such as -have been given here. I was asked, for example, what I felt caused the -President's death, the nature of the wound, from whence they came, -what measures were taken for resuscitation, who were the people in -attendance, at what time was it determined that he was beyond our help. - -Mr. SPECTER. What responses did you give to questions relating to the -source of the bullets, if such questions were asked? - -Dr. PERRY. I could not. I pointed out that both Dr. Clark and I had no -way of knowing from whence the bullets came. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you asked how many bullets there were? - -Dr. PERRY. We were, and our reply was it was impossible with the -knowledge we had at hand to ascertain if there were 1 or 2 bullets, -or more. We were given, similarly, to the discussion here today, -hypothetical situations. "Is it possible that such could have been the -case, or such and such?" If it was possible that there was one bullet. -To this, I replied in the affirmative, it was possible and conceivable -that it was only one bullet, but I did not know. - -Mr. SPECTER. What would the trajectory, or conceivable course of one -bullet have been, Dr. Perry, to account for the injuries which you -observed in the President, as you stated it? - -Dr. PERRY. Since I observed only two wounds in my cursory examination, -it would have necessitated the missile striking probably a bony -structure and being deviated in its course in order to account for -these two wounds. - -Mr. SPECTER. What bony structure was it conceivably? - -Dr. PERRY. It required striking the spine. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you express a professional opinion that that did, -in fact, happen or it was a matter of speculation that it could have -happened? - -Dr. PERRY. I expressed it as a matter of speculation that this was -conceivable. But, again, Dr. Clark and I emphasized that we had no way -of knowing. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you now recounted as specifically as you can -recollect what occurred at that first press conference or is it -practical for you to give any further detail to the contents of that -press conference? - -Dr. PERRY. I do not recall any specific details any further than that. - -Representative FORD. Mr. Specter--was there ever a recording kept of -the questions and answers at that interview, Dr. Perry? - -Dr. PERRY. This was one of the things I was mad about, Mr. Ford. There -were microphones, and cameras, and the whole bit, as you know, and -during the course of it a lot of these hypothetical situations and -questions that were asked to us would often be asked by someone on -this side and recorded by some one on this, and I don't know who was -recorded and whether they were broadcasting it directly. There were -tape recorders there and there were television cameras with their -microphones. I know there were recordings made but who made them I -don't know and, of course, portions of it would be given to this group -and questions answered here and, as a result, considerable questions -were not answered in their entirety and even some of them that were -asked, I am sure were misunderstood. It was bedlam. - -Representative FORD. I was thinking, was there an official recording -either made by the hospital officials or by the White House people or -by any government agency? - -Dr. PERRY. Not to my knowledge. - -Representative FORD. A true recording of everything that was said, the -questions asked, and the answers given? - -Dr. PERRY. Not to my knowledge. - -Mr. DULLES. Was there any reasonably good account in any of the press -of this interview? - -Dr. PERRY. No, sir. - -Representative FORD. May I ask---- - -Dr. PERRY. I have failed to see one that was asked. - -Representative FORD. In other words, you subsequently read or heard -what was allegedly said by you and by Dr. Clark and Dr. Carrico. Were -those reportings by the news media accurate or inaccurate as to what -you and others said? - -Dr. PERRY. In general, they were inaccurate. There were some that were -fairly close, but I, as you will probably surmise, was pretty full -after both Friday and Sunday, and after the interviews again, following -the operation of which I was a member on Sunday, I left town, and I -did not read a lot of them, but of those which I saw I found none that -portrayed it exactly as it happened. Nor did I find any that reported -our statements exactly as they were given. They were frequently taken -out of context. They were frequently mixed up as to who said what or -identification as to which person was who. - -Representative FORD. This interview took place on Sunday, the 24th, did -you say? - -Dr. PERRY. No, there were several interviews, Mr. Ford. We had one in -the afternoon, Friday afternoon, and then I spent almost the entire -day Saturday in the administrative suite at the hospital answering -questions to people of the press, and some medical people of the -American Medical Association. And then, of course, Sunday, following -the operation on Oswald, I again attended the press conference since -I was the first in attendance with him. And, subsequently, there -was another conference on Monday conducted by the American Medical -Association, and a couple of more interviews with some people whom I -don't even recall. - -Representative FORD. Would you say that these errors that were reported -were because of a lack of technical knowledge as to what you as a -physician were saying, or others were saying? - -Dr. PERRY. Certainly that could be it in part, but it was not all. -Certainly a part of it was lack of attention. A question would be -asked and you would incompletely answer it and another question -would be asked and they had gotten what they wanted without really -understanding, and they would go on and it would go out of context. -For example, on the speculation on the ultimate source of bullets, I -obviously knew less about it than most people because I was in the -hospital at the time and didn't know the circumstances surrounding it -until it was over. I was much too busy and yet I was quoted as saying -that the bullet, there was probably one bullet, which struck and -deviated upward which came from the front, and what I had replied was -to a question, was it conceivable that this could have happened, and I -said yes, it is conceivable. - -I have subsequently learned that to use a straight affirmative word -like "yes" is not good relations; that one should say it is conceivable -and not give a straight yes or no answer. - -"It is conceivable" was dropped and the "yes" was used, and this was -happening over and over again. Of course, Dr. Shires, for example, who -was the professor and chairman of the department was identified in one -press release as chief resident. - -Mr. DULLES. As what? I didn't get it. - -Dr. PERRY. As chief resident. And myself, as his being my superior, -whereas Dr. Ronald Jones was chief resident of course, nothing could be -further from the truth in identifying Dr. Shires as chief resident. I -was identified as a resident surgeon in the Dallas paper. And I am not -impressed with the accuracy of the press reports. - -Mr. McCLOY. I don't know whether you have covered this very well. -Let me ask you about the wound, the wound that you examined in the -President's neck. - -You said that it would have been tolerable. Would his speech have been -impaired? - -Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I don't think so. The injury was below the larynx, -and certainly barring the advent of any complication would have healed -without any difficulty. - -Mr. McCLOY. He would have had a relatively normal life? - -Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you, any other time, or other than the press conference -or any other period, say that you thought this was an exit wound? - -Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. McCLOY. When the President was brought, when you first saw the -President, was he fully clothed, or did you cut the clothing away? - -Dr. PERRY. Not at the time I saw him. Dr. Carrico and the nurses were -all in attendance, they had removed his coat and his shirt, which is -standard procedure, while we were proceeding about the examination, for -them to do so. - -Mr. McCLOY. But you didn't actually remove his shirt? - -Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you get the doctor's experience with regard to gunshot -wounds? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. McCLOY. You said something to the effect that, of knowing the -President had an adrenalin insufficiency, is that something you could -observe? - -Dr. PERRY. This is common medical knowledge, sir, that he had had -in the past necessarily taken adrenalin steroids to support this -insufficiency. Dr. Carrico, at this moment of great stress, recalled -this, and requested this be given to him at that time, this is -extremely important because people who have adrenalin insufficiency are -unable to mobilize this hormone at the time of any great stress and it -may be fatal without support from exogenous drugs. - -Mr. McCLOY. In other words, you had a general medical history of the -President before he was--common knowledge. - -Dr. PERRY. No more so than anyone else, sir, except this would have -stuck with us, sir, since they were already in that line. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you discuss with any of the other doctors present, and -you named quite a number of them, as to whether this was an exit wound -or an entrance wound? - -Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; we did at the time. But our discussion was -necessarily limited by the fact that none of us knew, someone asked me -now--you must remember that actually the only people who saw this wound -for sure were Dr. Carrico and myself, and some of the other doctors -were quoted as saying something about the wound which actually they -never said at all because they never saw it, because on their arrival -I had already made the incision through the wound, and despite what -the press releases may have said neither Dr. Carrico nor myself could -say whether it was an entrance or an exit wound from the nature of the -wound itself and Dr. McClelland was quoted, for example, as saying he -thought it was an exit wound, but that was not what he said at all -because he didn't even see it. - -Mr. McCLOY. And it is a fact, is it not, that you did not see what we -now are supposed to believe was the entrance wound? - -Dr. PERRY. No, sir; we did not examine him. At that time, we attended -to the matters of expediency that were life-saving and the securing -of an adequate airway and the stanching of massive hemorrhage are -really the two medical emergencies; most everything else can wait, but -those must be attended to in a matter of minutes and consequently to -termination of treatment I had no morbid curiosity, my work was done, -and actually I was rather anxious to leave. - -Mr. McCLOY. That is all. - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. DULLES. I suggest, Mr. Specter, if you feel it is feasible, you -send to the doctor the accounts of his press conference or conferences. - -And possibly, if you are willing, sir, you could send us a letter, send -to the Commission a letter, pointing out the various points in these -press conferences where you are inaccurately quoted, so we can have -that as a matter of record. - -Is that feasible? - -Dr. PERRY. That is, sir. - -Would you prefer that each clipping be edited individually or a general -statement? - -Mr. DULLES. Well, I think it would be better to have each clipping -dealt with separately. Obviously, if you have answered one point in one -clipping it won't be necessary to answer that point if it is repeated -in another clipping. - -Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Just deal with the new points. - -Dr. PERRY. I can and will do this. - -Representative FORD. This would be where Dr. Perry is quoted himself, -or Dr. Carrico, or anyone else, they would only pass judgment on the -quotes concerning themselves. - -Mr. DULLES. That would be correct. - -Dr. PERRY. Yes, because some of the other circumstances in some of the -press releases which have come to my attention have not been entirely -accurate either, regarding sequence of events, and although I would not -have knowledge about those you would not want those added necessarily, -just any statement alluded to have been made by me. - -Mr. DULLES. I think that would be better. - -Don't you think so, Mr. Chairman? - -Representative FORD. I think it would be the proper procedure. - -Is this a monumental job, Mr. Specter? - -Mr. SPECTER. No, I think it is one which can be managed, Congressman -Ford. I might say we have done that with some of the clippings. - -There was an article, as the deposition records will show when you have -an opportunity to review them, they have not been transcribed, as to an -article which appeared in La Expres, statements were attributed to Dr. -McClelland---- - -Mr. DULLES. Which paper? - -Mr. SPECTER. A French paper, La Expres. And I questioned the doctors -quoted therein and developed for the record what was true and what was -false on the statements attributed to them, so we have undertaken that -in some circles but not as extensively as you suggest as to Dr. Perry, -because we have been trying diligently to get the tape records of the -television interviews, and we were unsuccessful. I discussed this with -Dr. Perry in Dallas last Wednesday, and he expressed an interest in -seeing them, and I told him we would make them available to him prior -to his appearance, before deposition or before the Commission, except -our efforts at CBS and NBC, ABC and everywhere including New York, -Dallas and other cities were to no avail. - -The problem is they have not yet cataloged all of the footage which -they have, and I have been advised by the Secret Service, by Agent John -Howlett, that they have an excess of 200 hours of transcripts among all -of the events and they just have not cataloged them and could not make -them available. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you intend to catalog them? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, they do, Mr. Dulles. They intend to do that -eventually in their normal process, and the Secret Service is trying -to expedite the news media to give us those, and it was our thought as -to the film clips, which would be the most direct or the recordings -which would be the most direct, to make comparisons between the reports -in the news media and what Dr. Perry said at that time, and the facts -which we have from the doctors through our depositions and transcript -today. - -Representative FORD. Can you give us any time estimate when this -catalog and comparison might be made? - -Mr. SPECTER. Only that they are working on it right now, have been for -some time, but it may be a matter of a couple of weeks until they can -turn it over. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Chairman, I have some doubt as to the present propriety -of making, of having the doctor make, comments in respect to a -particular group of newspaper articles. There have been comments, as -we all know, around the world, of great variety and great extent, -and it would be practically impossible, I suppose, to check all of -the accounts and in failing to check one would not wish to have it -suggested that others, the accuracy of others was being endorsed. - -I would suggest that the staff make an examination of the files that we -have of the comments, together with such tape recordings as may have -been taken of the actual press conferences, and after that examination -is made we can then determine, perhaps a little more effectively, what -might be done to clarify this situation so that it would conform to -the actual statements that the doctor has made. - -Mr. DULLES. Well, Mr. McCloy, it is quite satisfactory with me and I -agree with you we cannot run down all of the rumors in all of the press -and it is quite satisfactory with me to wait and see whether we have -adequate information to deal with this situation when we get in the -complete tapes of the various television, radio and other appearances, -so that we have a pretty complete record of what these two witnesses -and others have said on the points we have been discussing here today. - -So I quite agree we will await this presentation to the doctors until -we have had a further chance to review this situation. - -What I wanted to be sure was that when we are through with this we do -have in our files and records adequate information to deal with a great -many of the false rumors that have been spread on the basis of false -interpretation of these appearances before television, radio, and so -forth and so on. - -Representative FORD. Is that all, Mr. Dulles, and Mr. McCloy? - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. May I ask at this point, did you examine Governor Connally, -too? - -Dr. PERRY. I was in the operating room briefly to see about his leg. - -Mr. McCLOY. You haven't come to that point in your interrogation. - -Mr. SPECTER. I did not. - -Mr. McCLOY. I understood you to say you did examine Oswald. - -Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; I operated on Oswald. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described in general the press conferences -in which you participated immediately after the treatment which you -rendered to President Kennedy and following the treatment which you -assisted in rendering to Mr. Oswald? - -Dr. PERRY. To the best of my knowledge. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you make an effort to leave the area of Dallas -immediately following the Monday after the weekend of the assassination -and the killing of Oswald in an effort to get away from the press -conferences? - -Dr. PERRY. I left Monday afternoon approximately 3 o'clock. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you go? - -Dr. PERRY. I went to McAllen, Tex., to the home of my mother-in-law. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how far is that from Dallas? - -Dr. PERRY. About 560 miles. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you leave instructions as to revealing the destination -that you set upon? - -Dr. PERRY. No, only with Dr. Shires and my secretary. - -Mr. SPECTER. And were you contacted by the press in McAllen? - -Dr. PERRY. The following day. - -Mr. SPECTER. And were your whereabouts given either by Dr. Shires or -your secretary? - -Dr. PERRY. No, it was not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you relate briefly the sequence that followed in -McAllen, Tex. - -Dr. PERRY. The gentleman from UPI came out and knocked on the door, -and I was quite surprised, not having told anyone where I was going, -and I asked him if he would mind telling me how he found out how I was -there, and looking back at it I was kind of naive, I went to a relative -and told no one else. He had a wire in his hands which he showed me -indicating it had come from the Dallas office, naming the place where I -was, and the exact address, and who I was staying with. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he ask to take pictures of you? - -Dr. PERRY. He did. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was your response? - -Dr. PERRY. This was denied. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did he ask you questions? - -Dr. PERRY. He did, essentially the same questions which I have -reiterated as to the emergency treatment that was undertaken. He did -not press the point as to the number of bullets or anything of that, -and I told him I had no knowledge of that. He only asked about the -emergency measures I had taken and I related them to him as I have to -you. - -Mr. SPECTER. Subsequently, did an article appear about you in the -Saturday Evening Post? - -Dr. PERRY. It did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly the circumstances surrounding -the appearance of that article as you felt them to be? - -Dr. PERRY. We were contacted, not I directly but Dr. Shires, by the -medical editor of the Saturday Evening Post, this was all related to me -by Dr. Shires, in regard to a possible story. This was declined, since -Dr. Shires and those of us in the department felt that the news value -was gone and this was commercialism, and they told Dr. Shires, I am -told, that they would not print anything. - -However, an article appearing under a New York Herald Tribune -uncopyrighted by-line apparently was subsequently acquired by them and -published. - -Mr. SPECTER. And was that article accurate, inaccurate, or what was the -level of accuracy of the contents thereof? - -Dr. PERRY. The level of accuracy was not very good at all. It was -overly dramatic, garish and in poor taste, and ethically damaging to me. - -Mr. SPECTER. In what way was it ethically damaging to you, Dr. Perry? - -Dr. PERRY. As you know, it is our policy that the physician's name -in the treatment of any patient be essentially kept quiet. There -are unusual circumstances surrounding this one, of course, and our -names were made public. But this mentions my name freely, published a -photograph that apparently was taken of me at the press conference and -had previously appeared in a newspaper, and a picture of the emergency -room, trauma room No. 1, and although most of the people in the medical -profession, I have subsequently been assured by the Society of Surgeons -and AMA, that they realize I had no part in it, which is obvious to -them because of the gross inaccuracies. Nonetheless it is harmful to -me as a member of the faculty of the medical school to have such an -article in print. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, did you have occasion to discuss your -observations with Comdr. James J. Humes of the Bethesda Naval Hospital? - -Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did that conversation occur? - -Dr. PERRY. My knowledge as to the exact accuracy of it is obviously -in doubt. I was under the initial impression that I talked to him on -Friday, but I understand it was on Saturday. I didn't recall exactly -when. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an independent recollection at this moment as -to whether it was on Friday or Saturday? - -Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I have thought about it again and the events -surrounding that weekend were very kaleidoscopic, and I talked with Dr. -Humes on two occasions, separated by a very short interval of, I think -it was, 30 minutes or an hour or so, it could have been a little longer. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the medium of your conversation? - -Dr. PERRY. Over the telephone. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he identify himself to you as Dr. Humes of Bethesda? - -Dr. PERRY. He did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you state as specifically as you can recollect the -conversation that you first had with him? - -Dr. PERRY. He advised me that he could not discuss with me the findings -of necropsy, that he had a few questions he would like to clarify. The -initial phone call was in relation to my doing a tracheotomy. Since I -had made the incision directly through the wound in the neck, it made -it difficult for them to ascertain the exact nature of this wound. Of -course, that did not occur to me at the time. I did what appeared to -me to be medically expedient. And when I informed him that there was a -wound there and I suspected an underlying wound of the trachea and even -perhaps of the great vessels he advised me that he thought this action -was correct and he said he could not relate to me any of the other -findings. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate to me in lay language what necropsy is? - -Dr. PERRY. Autopsy, postmortem examination. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the content of the second conversation which you -had with Comdr. Humes, please? - -Dr. PERRY. The second conversation was in regard to the placement of -the chest tubes for drainage of the chest cavity. And I related to him, -as I have to you, the indications that prompted me to advise that this -be done at that time. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, did you observe any bruising of the neck -muscles of President Kennedy when you were engaged in your operative -procedure that you have described? - -Dr. PERRY. This bruising, as you describe, would have been obscured -by the fact that there was a large amount of blood, hematoma, present -in the neck and the mediastinum and hence all the blood tissues were -covered by this blood. - -Mr. SPECTER. A few moments ago in response to a question by Mr. McCloy -I believe you commented that, as you recollected it, very few of the -doctors would have had an opportunity to observe the hole in the -President's neck and I think you said that only you and Dr. Carrico -would have had such an opportunity. Can you state, with absolute -certainty, at which point the various doctors arrived in the room? And -bear in mind on this that while you have not had the opportunity to -review the depositions, some of the other doctors have expressed the -view that they have had an opportunity to see the wound. Specifically, -Dr. M. T. Jenkins said in a deposition that he did see the wound, and -I have not had an opportunity to ask you that question before, because -you made the comment during the course of the testimony today. - -But I would like your comment on, in your opinion, whether the other -doctors would have had an opportunity, perhaps, to observe the neck -wound prior to the tracheotomy? - -Dr. PERRY. Since I don't know with accuracy the exact times of their -arrival, it is conceivable that others could have seen it. And Dr. -Jenkins was apparently one of the early arrivals in the room. - -However, at the time that I arrived, as I related, Dr. Carrico was -present and Dr. Jones and I. Dr. Jones immediately directed himself -toward obtaining another intravenous infusion, and I immediately went -to the neck wound. At the time of arrival of the other surgeons which -assisted me in the operation, I had already made the incision. - -Dr. Jenkins could have arrived at the time that I was preparing to make -the incision and seen the wound. It is possible, I don't know when he -came in the room. I know he did not examine the wound per se. - -Mr. SPECTER. And similarly Dr. Jones has commented in the course of his -deposition about the situation with respect to the wound in the neck. - -Based on your observations, would it be consistent with what you know -to be fact that he had an opportunity to examine the neck wound? - -Dr. PERRY. I know he might have seen it because he and I entered the -room simultaneously, we came down together. To my knowledge, he did not -examine the wound although he might have noted the wound present as I -went to work. - -Mr. SPECTER. Specifically what did he do then as you went to work? - -Dr. PERRY. He was standing immediately on my left at that point, doing -a venesection, a cut down in the left arm for the administration of -fluids so he was able to observe the performance of the tracheotomy. - -Mr. SPECTER. In your opinion, Dr. Perry, was President Kennedy alive or -dead on arrival at Parkland? - -Dr. PERRY. The President was alive in that spontaneous ineffective -respiratory motions were observed by me, and although I never detected -a pulse or a heartbeat, I was told there was also electrical activity -on the cardiotachyscope when it was initially attached indicating there -was spontaneous activity of the heart. - -He was, therefore alive for medical purposes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who told you about the electrical activity on the -cardiotachyscope? - -Dr. PERRY. Dr. Clark. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was any bullet found by you or by any other doctor at -Parkland in the President's body? - -Dr. PERRY. I found none. To the best of my knowledge neither did anyone -else. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was the President ever turned over at any time? - -Dr. PERRY. Not by me nor did I see it done. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you present as long as any other doctor was present -in the emergency room? - -Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I think that at the time that I left trauma room -number one, I went outside, and washed my hands, and I opened the door -briefly to retrieve my coat which I had left there on the floor and the -nurse handed me my coat. - -At that time as I recall Doctor Jenkins was still in the room and there -were several other people there including Mrs. Kennedy and the priest, -and some gentlemen whom I did not know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you make any effort to examine the clothing of -President Kennedy?. - -Dr. PERRY. I did not. - -(At this point, Representative Boggs entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Why was it, Dr. Perry, that there was no effort made to -examine the clothing of President Kennedy and no effort to turn him -over and examine the back of the President? - -Dr. PERRY. At the termination of the procedure and after we had -determined that Mr. Kennedy had expired, I cannot speak for the others -but as for myself, my work was done. I fought a losing battle, and -I actually obviously, having seen a lot of wounds, had no morbid -curiosity, and actually was rather anxious to leave the room. I had -nothing further to offer. - -Mr. SPECTER. With the President having been declared dead, did you -consider it was your function to make any further exploration of the -President's body? - -Dr. PERRY. This is not my function or my prerogative. This would be -undertaken by suitable authorities at the time of postmortem, people -with experience superior to mine in determining things of this sort. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where was Mrs. Kennedy, if you know, during the course of -the treatment which you have described that you performed? - -Dr. PERRY. I had the initial impression she was in the room most of -the time although I have been corrected on this. When I entered the -room she was standing by the door, rather kneeling by the door, and -someone was standing there beside her. I saw her several times during -the course of the resuscitative measures, when I would look up from the -operative field to secure an instrument from the nearby tray. - -Mr. DULLES. Under your procedure who had the responsibility for -declaring that the President was dead? - -Dr. PERRY. This was a combination of factors, Mr. Dulles, undertaken by -those of us all in attendance, by Dr. Clark and Dr. Jenkins and myself -particularly since we were the senior people there. - -I was informed subsequently that Mrs. Kennedy left the room several -times to just outside the door but returned although as I say, I saw -her several times in the room. I did not speak to her nor she to me so -I do not have any knowledge as to exactly what she was doing. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wound in the President's chest? - -Dr. PERRY. I did not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wound on the left side of the -President's head? - -Dr. PERRY. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you heretofore during the course of your testimony -today described all of the wounds in the President which you have -observed? - -Dr. PERRY. I have. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you and the other doctors affected, in your opinion, -in your treatment of the President by virtue of the fact that he was -the President of the United States? - -Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; I am sure that is true. At the time that I was -going down the stairs to the emergency room I was, of course, quite -concerned, not knowing any of the circumstances surrounding the -incident nor in what condition I would find him, and at the time that I -entered the room, and it was my initial impression that he had a mortal -wound. - -At that point I directed myself to doing that which I could do and, of -course, the time then became quite compressed during the course of the -procedures and it was really not until afterwards that the full impact -of what had happened began to hit me. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to render any treatment to -Governor Connally at Parkland Hospital? - -Dr. PERRY. I saw the Governor in regard to the consultation in regard -to the injury to his leg. As I related earlier I am consultant in -vascular surgery to the hospital, and the estimated course of the -missile in his leg presupposed that he might have an injury to his -femoral artery or vein and Dr. Shires asked me if I would put on a -scrub suit and come to the operating room to assist in case it was -necessary to do some arterial surgery. - -It was not, however, so I did not operate. - -Mr. SPECTER. At what time approximately did you arrive at the operating -room where Governor Connally was being cared for? - -Dr. PERRY. I don't know, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was it during the course of the operation performed by Dr. -Shires? - -Dr. PERRY. Yes, At that time I was there during the time Dr. Shires was -there and Dr. Gregory was also operating on the arm at that point. Dr. -Shaw had completed his portion of the procedure. - -Mr. SPECTER. That would have been after the press conference had been -completed? - -Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render medical aid to Lee Harvey -Oswald on November 24? - -Dr. PERRY. I did. - -Mr. McCLOY. Before you get to that may I get clear, Dr. Shires and Dr. -Gregory were in attendance? - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw in addition. - -Dr. PERRY. Yes, and Shaw. - -Mr. McCLOY. Shaw, Shires and Gregory? - -Doctor PERRY. S-h-i-r-e-s. - -Representative BOGGS. Before you get to Oswald may I ask one question? -I am sure the doctor covered it. You said the minute you saw the -President you felt he had suffered a mortal wound? - -Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir. - -Representative BOGGS. You saw the wound immediately then? - -Dr. PERRY. Well, I saw his condition immediately, and as you are aware, -I have attended a lot of people with severe injuries. - -Representative BOGGS. Surely. - -Dr. PERRY. And he obviously was in extremis when I walked in the room. -And then I noted very cursorily the wound in the head and it was -obvious that this was an extremely serious wound. - -Representative BOGGS. Was he still alive when you saw him? - -Dr. PERRY. He was. - -Representative BOGGS. That is all. - -Representative FORD. May I ask, Mr. Specter, during the total time that -you were examining and treating the President, how much of his exposed -body did you see? - -Dr. PERRY. The upper trunk predominantly, Congressman Ford. His chest, -and, of course, his arms were bare, neck and head. I did not examine -any other portions of his body nor did I see any other portions except -briefly when I felt for the femoral pulse on the left side. - -Representative FORD. From the waist on up the front? - -Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe the treatment rendered to Mr. Oswald at -Parkland Memorial Hospital by yourself and by others as you observed it? - -Dr. PERRY. At the time I saw--starting with when I was called? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. - -Dr. PERRY. Well, I went immediately to the emergency room again, Dr. -Jones and I who also was in the hospital again, and told me that I was -the only attending surgeon present, and that they were bringing Mr. -Oswald out, and I was in the surgery suite and I went directly to the -emergency room just as he was being brought indoors. - -Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time was that? - -Dr. PERRY. I really don't know, sir. It was about 11:15 or so when I -was up in surgery. I had been seeing a baby in regard to an operation -we had scheduled at 1 o'clock and then Dr. Jones came after me. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long did it take you approximately to travel from the -point where you received the notice that he was en route until your -arrival at the emergency room? - -Dr. PERRY. No more than 2 or 3 minutes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And you say you arrived there simultaneously with Mr. -Oswald? - -Dr. PERRY. Just as he came in. - -Mr. SPECTER. Precisely where in the hospital was it where you met Mr. -Oswald? - -Dr. PERRY. He was brought into the emergency room, trauma room number -two, and as they wheeled him in I came around the corner. - -Mr. SPECTER. What action did you take with respect to Mr. Oswald? - -Dr. PERRY. Well, there were numerous people in attendance, more so -than on the previous incident on Friday. He also obviously was quite -seriously injured. He was cyanotic, very blue and although he also was -attempting respirations, they were not effective, and an endotracheal -tube was placed in him by one of the anesthesiologists, I think Dr. -Jenkins, and I examined his chest and noted the entrance point of the -bullet wound on the left side and I could feel the bullet just under -the skin on the right side, right rear margin, indicating the bullet -had passed entirely through his body and come to rest under the skin. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where through his body? - -Dr. PERRY. I beg your pardon sir, the bullet entered approximately the -midaxillary line at about the 9th or 10th interspace on the left side -of the chest cage, and came to rest just under the rib margin on the -right side under the skin. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could you supply in lay language what cyanotic means? - -Dr. PERRY. Blue from lack of oxygen. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could you explain in lay language the midaxillary line? - -Dr. PERRY. It is about the mid portion of the fold extending down from -the armpit on the left. This is just rough because I glanced at that -briefly and determined the nature of the path of the bullet and from -looking at him it was obvious that this had traversed major structures -in his body in order to reach that particular place, so while a cutdown -was being done again to administer fluid, I asked someone to put in a -left chest tube on him because it appeared it went in and I recalled -surgery until they were bringing him directly up. - -Dr. Tom Shires, Chief of the Surgical Services, came into the door at -a point and Dr. McClelland, and we left and went to surgery to change -clothes and they brought him from there immediately to surgery and we -proceeded with the operation. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who was present, if anyone, with Mr. Oswald at the time -you arrived there? - -Dr. PERRY. In the emergency room? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. - -Dr. PERRY. Dr. Jenkins was there, Dr. M. T. Jenkins, Chief of -Anesthesiology. - -I think Dr. Giesecke was also there again, although I am not sure of -that. I saw Dr. Risk who is a resident in urology and I saw Dr. Dulany -who is a resident in surgery. Dr. Boland, I believe who is a resident -in thoracic surgery and, of course, Dr. Jones and myself, and there -were several other people, the nurses, I don't recall. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe briefly the physical layout utilized in -taking Mr. Oswald from trauma room number two which you have already -described up to the operating room? - -Dr. PERRY. We have an express elevator that connects delivery room, -operating room, emergency room and it is approximately 20 yards from -trauma room two, I would estimate, just around the corner, in an even -corridor and although I was not there as they took him up, I was in -the operating room preparing and scrubbing, he was wheeled directly -there to the express elevator and taken to the second floor where the -operating suites are. - -Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long does it take to get a patient from -the trauma room up to the operating room? - -Dr. PERRY. It depends on a lot of factors. One is if the elevator is -there or not or if it happens to be in surgery or in the delivery room. -But I have on occasion where it was necessary that you must go with -all dispatch to the operating room, have done it in a matter of a few -minutes. - -They brought him right in the door, placed him on the elevator with a -finger controlling the hemorrhage where you could take him directly to -the operating room. I have done that in a matter, I am sure, of less -than 3 or 4 minutes if I had to. - -Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long did it take to get Oswald from -trauma room two to the operating room? - -Dr. PERRY. I don't know, I was told subsequently it was 12 minutes from -the time we had him up. And---- - -Representative BOGGS. How long was it from the time he was shot until -he reached the hospital? - -Dr. PERRY. I have no knowledge of that, sir. - -Representative BOGGS. Do you know? - -Mr. SPECTER. No; I don't know. - -Mr. DULLES. Was he conscious at any time so far as you know? - -Dr. PERRY. No, sir; he did not say a word. - -Mr. DULLES. He was not conscious? - -Dr. PERRY. No, sir; and even had he been, of course, once we had the -endotracheal tube in he could not have spoken. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who was in charge of the operation performed on Mr. Oswald? - -Dr. PERRY. Dr. Tom Shires. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who was in assistance with Dr. Shires? - -Dr. PERRY. I first assisted Dr. Shires and then Ronald Jones and Dr. -McClelland were also at the operation. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the operative procedures employed on Mr. -Oswald please? - -Dr. PERRY. Yes. From the nature of the trajectory of the wound and -the nature of the path of the bullet on the other side it was obvious -that it had traversed major vessels, the aorta and vena cava. The -aorta and vena cava, the heart area, and then a midline incision was -made. A rapid prep with iodine was done, the patient was draped. An -incision was carried rapidly into the abdominal cavity at which time -we noticed approximately 3 litres of free blood which is an excess of -three quarts. This was removed by suction, lap packs and by just moving -it out in the form of clots with the hands. It was noted there was -considerable bleeding appearing in both the right upper and left upper -quadrants of the body. There was a large hematoma retroperitoneally -in the midline also, causing the bowels to be pushed forward rather -strikingly. - -We immediately dissected over the portal vein on the right since it -was apparently injured, and placed a vascular occlusive clamp of the -Sittinsky type in this area to control the bleeding. Noted an injury -to the right kidney and to the lobe of the liver. We also noted there -was an injury to the stomach, the pancreas, the spleen. At that point -it became apparent that he had indeed struck major vessels, and -appeared to be the aorta, so the left colon was reflected very rapidly -in order to allow us to enter the space behind the intestines, the -retroperitoneal space, and at that point I controlled the bleeding from -the aorta by finger pressure below and above this area. - -The bullet had knocked the superior mesenteric artery completely off -the aorta exposing a large area. - -After I had controlled the bleeding Dr. Shires was able to dissect -around the area sufficient to allow us to gain control of the aorta, -superior mesenteric artery and the vena cava and the placement of -vascular clamps across these vessels in order to stop the hemmorhage. - -At this point, he was being given blood and, of course, the suitable -anesthesia measures which were oxygen under pressure. He did not -require an anesthetic agent, I am told. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who told you that, Dr. Perry? - -Dr. PERRY. I think one of the residents did, one of the anesthesia -residents. We at that point had restored his blood pressure. I don't -know the exact recordings, but I was told subsequently it had returned -to near normal levels since we had the bleeding controlled. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the situation with respect to his respiration at -that time? - -Dr. PERRY. It was being assisted and controlled, of course, by -anesthesiology. This was no problem. We had a tube in place and -was breathing for him so he had no problem with respiration. This -was completely under control of anesthesia. The blood pressure was -controlled and we stopped for a moment to determine how we would best -go about repairing the structures and which would have priority, all -the bleeding had stopped but, as I recall, the clamping of the aorta at -the level of the superior mesenteric artery means, of course, that you -must prevent blood from entering the kidneys, and this in itself can be -hazardous if extended, and therefore we decided this must be repaired -immediately in order to restore blood into the kidneys and the lower -portion of the body. - -Then Dr. Jenkins informed me and Dr. Shires that his cardiac action -was becoming weak, and I don't remember all the details surrounding -the medications and the things that were done at this particular time, -but he developed a backward cardiac failure, his heart slowed abruptly -and the blood pressure fell again and it was apparent the tremendous -blood loss he had had set the stage for irreversible shock and lack -of pumping action from the heart although he was being given massive -transfusions, I don't know the exact number, probably he had 10 or 12 -units. I believe it is in the record. - -At this point when they told me a cardiac arrest had occurred as a -result of the hemorrhage and blood loss I took a knife and opened the -left chest in the fourth interspace and reached in to massage his -heart, and the heart was flabby, and dilated, and apparently contained -very little blood. - -I began to massage the heart, to maintain it as we infused the blood -and was able to obtain a palpable pulse in the carotid vessels going to -the neck and into the head. We were unable to get the heart to go, and -it began to fibrillate which is an uncoordinated motion of the muscles -of the heart itself and the successive electrical shocks were applied -with the defibrillator and to stimulate heart action, and we failed in -this and the cardiac pacemaker was sewn in place, and it was handed to -me by the thoracic surgery resident, and I sewed it into the heart to -artificially induce heart action, this also was without benefit. - -We were never able to restore effective heart action and then Dr. -Jenkins informed as neurologically he was not responding, that his -reflexes were gone, and he felt that he had expired. - -Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did that occur? - -Dr. PERRY. I don't know, Mr. Specter, I would have to look at the -record. - -Mr. SPECTER. At approximately how long after he arrived at the hospital -did that occur? - -Dr. PERRY. I don't know that, either. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you approximate the length of time of the operation -itself? - -Dr. PERRY. 45 minutes or so, I would say. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is there any question but that he was alive during the -course of your operative procedures? - -Dr. PERRY. Oh, no, no question. The fact is we were very close, I -think, to winning the battle. We have seen injuries of this magnitude, -they rarely survive, this is a very serious injury and to the best -of my knowledge I have not seen anyone with this particular set of -injuries survive. But at one point once we controlled the hemorrhage -and once I had control of the aorta and was able to stop the bleeding -of that area I actually felt we had a very good chance since everything -had proceeded with expediency. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed by any representative of the -Federal Government in connection with your treatment of President -Kennedy, Dr. Perry? - -Dr. PERRY. Yes, I have. - -Mr. SPECTER. By whom were you interviewed? - -Dr. PERRY. I regret that I do not recall their names. I was interviewed -by two gentlemen from the Secret Service approximately the following -week, as I recall, and again about a month ago. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what questions were asked of you on the first -interview by the Secret Service? - -Dr. PERRY. Essentially in regard to the treatment and once again -speculation as to where the bullets might have originated and what the -nature of the wounds were and I was unable to supply them with any -adequate information. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were the responses given by you to the Secret Service on -that first interview essentially the same as you have given today? - -Dr. PERRY. With minor variations in wording, they are essentially the -same. - -Mr. SPECTER. Approximately when did the second interview occur with the -Secret Service? - -Dr. PERRY. I think approximately a month ago, although I am not sure of -that. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the content of that interview? - -Dr. PERRY. A gentleman identified himself as being connected with the -Warren Commission and Secret Service. I asked for his credentials which -he duly supplied and he asked me in regard to any further information I -might have pertaining to the events of that weekend, and we reiterated -some of these statements which I made previously, and since I had -nothing more to add, why it was terminated. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you supply any information which was in any way -different from that which you have testified to here today? - -Dr. PERRY. In essence; no, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. On the second interview, did the man identify himself to -you as a Secret Service agent who was conducting a further inquiry at -the request of the President's Commission? - -Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; he said he was with the Warren Commission. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did I discuss the facts within your knowledge or take your -deposition in Dallas on Wednesday, March 25, 1964? - -Dr. PERRY. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And was the information which you provided at that time -in advance of the deposition and during the course of the deposition -itself the same as the information which you provided here today -concerning the treatment of President Kennedy, your observations and -opinions on President Kennedy? - -Dr. PERRY. It is. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have I made that transcript available to you this morning -before we started this testimony? - -Dr. PERRY. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you at any time changed any opinion which you held -concerning any matter relating to President Kennedy? - -Dr. PERRY. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you prepare a handwritten report on your care of -President Kennedy which became part of the record of Parkland Hospital? - -Dr. PERRY. I did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Which you identified during the course of the deposition -proceeding as being your report? - -Dr. PERRY. Yes, that is correct. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any other notes of your own relating to any of -the matters which you testified here today? - -Dr. PERRY. None. - -Mr. McCLOY. What was the condition of, general physical condition, -apart from the wounds, of Oswald, as you observed him? Was his body -healthy? - -Dr. PERRY. I made only a very cursory examination, Mr. McCloy. He -appeared rather thin to me. - -Mr. McCLOY. Not, you wouldn't call him a muscular type? - -Dr. PERRY. No, he would be what we would describe as a thinnish -individual, that is very thin; was wiry rather than bulky muscles. - -Mr. McCLOY. Were there any signs that you observed cursorily, symptoms -of any prior disease? - -Dr. PERRY. No, I did not look for those. - -Mr. DULLES. No distinguishing marks on the body that you saw, prior -operations? - -Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I did not look. There was no evidence of previous -surgical operation on his abdomen, and I didn't examine anything else. - -Of course, this also can be missed unless you are looking for it. We -went through the midline and unless one went looking for it we did not -have time and we would not see it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, was the chest tube inserted in the President's -chest abandoned or was that operation or operative procedure completed? - -Dr. PERRY. The chest tube, to be placed there, was supposedly placed -into the pleural cavity. However, I have knowledge that it was not. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what was the reason for its not being placed into the -pleural cavity? - -Dr. PERRY. I did not speak with certainty but at that point I think -that we were at the end of the procedure and they just did not continue -with it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had it become apparent at that time that the President -expired? - -Dr. PERRY. That, I think, is probably true, but I did not state that -with certainty because I cannot state the exact sequence. I was -employed myself at the time, and I think if it had been determined that -this was not in, it would have been completed, if there was still time, -but I am not sure of that. That is speculation. - -Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the condition of the neck wounds, was it -ragged or pushed out in any manner? - -Dr. PERRY. No, it was not. As I originally described it, the edges were -neither cleancut, that is punched out, nor were they very ragged. I -realize that is not a very specific description but it is in between -those two areas. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there blood in that area which tended to obscure your -view? - -Dr. PERRY. It was exuding blood during that procedure and thus I did -not examine it very closely. In retrospect, I think it would have been -of much more value had I looked at these things more carefully but I -had directed my attention to other things. - -Mr. SPECTER. Those complete my questions. - -Representative FORD. Mr. McCloy? - -Mr. Dulles? - -Have you examined the autopsy report made by the officials in Bethesda? - -Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir, I have. - -Representative FORD. Does your testimony conform to the facts stated in -that report? - -Dr. PERRY. I think so. At the time the testimony which I have given -here of my knowledge without the--was given the same as it was without -the basis of that report. But now having had access to that report, -I think it ties in very nicely. I see no discrepancies at all. For -example, had I known that he had these other two wounds, it would have -been much easier at the time to state a little more categorically about -the trajectory of the missiles, but not knowing about those I could -only speculate. - -Representative FORD. There is no basic conflict between what you have -testified to or what you have said previously, and the autopsy report? - -Dr. PERRY. None at all. - -Representative BOGGS. Just one question. I presume this question has -been asked. - -This neck wound, was there any indication that that wound had come from -the front? - -Dr. PERRY. There is no way to tell, sir, for sure. As you may recall, -passage of a high velocity missile, the damage it does, is dependent on -two factors, actually, one being deformation of the missile, increase -in its relative caliber, and the other the expending of the energy of -that missile in the object it strikes. - -For example, the energy used to carry the missile beyond the object -that it struck is obviously not going to cause much of an injury. If -there is a missile of relatively high velocity, although I consider -this a medium velocity weapon, that the missile for entrance or exit -had the bullet not been deformed would not be substantially different, -had it not been deformed nor particularly slowed in its velocity. - -Representative BOGGS. By that, you mean it would be difficult to -determine the point of exit and the point of entrance under those -circumstances? - -Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; unless one were able to ascertain the trajectory. -If you could, for example, make check points between what the missile -might have struck, then you could ascertain trajectory. But with a -relatively high velocity missile, this also is difficult due to the -amount of blast injury which occurs in enclosed tissues, similar to -those I am sure you have seen to those discussed, so blast injury can -be an area remote from the exact passage of the missile itself. - -Representative BOGGS. Of course, your main concern was to try to save -the President's life and not---- - -Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; it actually never occurred to me until all the -questions began to come, and I was ill-prepared to meet them, but it -never occurred to me that, to investigate, because I was busy, and I -have done these types of things many times. - -It just never occurred to me to look into it until afterwards. - -Representative FORD. Any questions, Dean Storey? - -Mr. STOREY. No, thank you, sir. - -Representative FORD. Mr. Murray? - -Mr. MURRAY. No. - -Mr. DULLES. I have one more question I would like to ask. - -Did you know anything about the spent bullet that was found on, I don't -know what you call it--the litter? - -Dr. PERRY. On the carriage? - -Mr. DULLES. On the carriage. - -Dr. PERRY. My first knowledge of that was one of the newspaper -publications had said there was a bullet found there. I don't know now -whether it was or was not. I didn't find it. - -Mr. SPECTER. May I say, Mr. Dulles, on that subject, I took several -depositions on that subject in the Dallas Hospital and I think we have -a reasonably conclusive answer on that question; and, in fact, it came -from the stretcher of Governor Connally. - -Dr. PERRY. They were quoted as having removed a bullet from Governor -Connally's leg, the press quoted that, but a bullet was not removed -from Governor Connally's leg. - -Mr. SPECTER. There was no bullet removed from Governor Connally's -leg, but there was a wound there, but there was a very small fragment -embedded in the femur, as the deposition of Drs. Shaw, Shires, and -Gregory will show. But the bullet was found on a stretcher and the -question arose as to whose stretcher it was, and we have traced the two -stretchers in a way so as to exclude the possibility of its being the -stretcher on which President Kennedy was carried, and we have traced -the path of Governor Connally's stretcher and have narrowed it to two -stretchers. And the bullet came off of one of the two stretchers, -so that, through the circumstances of the facts, it is reasonably -conclusive that it came from the stretcher of Governor Connally. - -Representative FORD. How long did it take you to go from where you were -when the page came to get down to trauma room No. 1? - -Dr. PERRY. A matter of no more than a minute or so, Congressman Ford. -It is down one flight of stairs and the door is almost immediately -adjacent to the dining room where we would go and we did not wait on -the elevator. We went down the stairs. - -Representative FORD. How long after the President was brought in before -you went to trauma room No. 1? - -Dr. PERRY. That I don't know either. My last recollection in regard to -time was approximately 12:30 when I was having lunch prior to rounds, -and Dr. Jones picked up the page and as we went downstairs I took off -my watch and dropped it in my coat pocket, rather expecting to do some -kind of procedure, and I took off my coat and I never looked at the -clock until afterwards. - -Mr. McCLOY. One more question, I want to get clear. - -The extent to which you examined Governor Connally's wounds, as I -gather, you were asked to stand by. - -Dr. PERRY. That is right, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Rather than to be involved in a close examination of the -wounds. - -Dr. PERRY. That is right, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. So you are not generally familiar? - -Dr. PERRY. No, sir; all I did was come into the operating room, put on -a scrub suit, cap and mask, and looked at the thigh wound before Dr. -Shires started the operation. That was the extent of the episode into -the wound, and I stayed there while he carried it down to the lower -portion of the wound and indicated there was no serious injury, and I -left the operating room at that point. - -Mr. McCLOY. And you didn't see the other two wounds? - -Dr. PERRY. I didn't see the other wounds at all, sir. - -Representative FORD. Thank you very much, Dr. Perry. - -Your testimony has been most helpful. - -(Whereupon, at 11:45 a.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -_Tuesday, March 31, 1964_ - -TESTIMONY OF ROBERT A. FRAZIER AND RONALD SIMMONS - -The President's Commission met at 9 a.m. on March 31, 1964, at 200 -Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. - -Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Hale -Boggs and John J. McCloy, members. - -Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Melvin Aron -Eisenberg, assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; -Charles Murray and Lewis Powell, observers; and Leon Jaworski, special -counsel to the attorney general of Texas. - - -TESTIMONY OF ROBERT A. FRAZIER - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Frazier, the purpose of today's hearing is to take -the testimony of yourself and Mr. Ronald Simmons. - -You are, we understand, a firearms expert with the FBI, and Mr. Simmons -is a firearms expert with the Weapons System Division at Fort Meade, Md. - -You are asked to provide technical information to assist the Commission -in this work. - -Would you raise your right hand and be sworn, please? - -You solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this -Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I do. - -The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated, please. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, will you give your name and position? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Robert A. Frazier, Special Agent, Federal Bureau of -Investigation, assigned to the FBI Laboratory, Washington, D.C. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And your education? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I have a science degree which I received from the -University of Idaho. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you briefly state your training and experience in -the fields of firearms, firearms identification, and ballistics? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Beginning in 1937, I was on the University of Idaho Rifle -Team, and the following year, 1938. In 1939 I enlisted in the National -Guard and for 2 years was on the National Guard Rifle Team firing both -small bore, or .22 caliber weapons, and the large bore, .30 caliber -weapons, both being of the bolt-action type weapons. - -In 1939 and 1940 I instructed in firearms in the Army of the United -States, and acquired additional experience in firing of weapons, -training in firing at moving targets, additional training in firing -the .45 caliber automatic and machineguns. And to further my firearms, -practical firearms training, I received in 1942 a training course -offered by the Federal Bureau of Investigation after entering on duty -with that organization in--on June 9, 1941. That firearms training -course consisted of a basic training in handguns--that is, revolvers -and automatic pistols, training in autoloading rifles, training in -submachineguns, shotguns, and various other types of firearms. - -One year later, approximately 1943, I received a specialized -administrative firearms course which qualified me for training other -agents in the field of law-enforcement type firearms. - -Over the past 23 years, I have received the regular FBI firearms -training, which is a monthly retraining in firearms, and a periodic, -or every 4 years, detailed retraining in the basic FBI firearms--the -firearms training with the rifle, submachinegun, shotgun, revolver. - -In the FBI, training includes firing both at stationary targets and -moving targets with both revolver and rifle and shotgun, and includes -firing at slow-fire targets--that is aimed fire for accuracy and rapid -fire to increase speed of firing. - -Generally in the field of firearms identification, where I have -been assigned for 23 years, I received specialized training given -in the FBI Laboratory to train me for the position of firearms -identification specialist. In that field, we make examinations of -bullets and cartridge cases, firearms of various types, for the purpose -of identifying weapons as to their caliber, what they are, their -manufacturer, their physical characteristics, and determining the type -of ammunition which they shoot. - -We examine ammunition of various types to identify it as to its -caliber, its specific designation, and the type or types of weapons in -which it can be fired, and we make comparisons of bullets to determine -whether or not they were fired from a particular weapon and make -comparisons of cartridge cases for the purpose of determining whether -or not they were fired in a particular weapon, or for determining -whether or not they had been loaded into or extracted from a particular -weapon. - -That training course lasted for approximately 1 year. However, of -course, the experience in firearms is actually part of the training and -continues for the entire time in which you are engaged in examining -firearms. - -Briefly, that is the summary of the firearms training I have had. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you estimate the number of examinations you have -made of firearms to identify the firearms? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Thousands, I would say--firearms comparisons--I have made -in the neighborhood of 50,000 to 60,000. - -Mr. McCLOY. Have you written any articles on this subject? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. I have prepared an article for the "FBI Law -Enforcement Bulletin" on firearms identification, which is published as -a reprint and provided to any organization or person interested in the -general field of firearms identification. - -Mr. McCLOY. Have you read most of the literature on the subject? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I have. - -Mr. McCLOY. Is there any classical book on this subject? - -Mr. FRAZIER. There are a number of fairly good texts. - -The basic one, originally published in 1936, is by Maj. Julian -S. Hatcher, who later, as a general, rewrote his book "Firearms -Investigation, Identification, and Evidence." - -There are many other books published on the subject. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I ask that this person be accepted as a qualified -witness on firearms? - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes, indeed. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, I now hand you a rifle marked Commission -Exhibit 139. - -Are you familiar with this weapon? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I am. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And do you recognize it by serial number or by your mark? - -Mr. FRAZIER. By serial number on the barrel, and by my initials which -appear on various parts of the weapon. - -Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, this is the rifle which was found on the -sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22. - -Can you describe this rifle by name and caliber? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It is a caliber 6.5 Italian military rifle, commonly -referred to in the United States as a 6.5 mm. Mannlicher-Carcano. - -It is a bolt-action clip-fed military rifle. - -Do you wish a general physical description of the weapon at this time? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Well, no; not at this time. - -Can you explain the American equivalent to the 6.5 mm. caliber? - -Mr. FRAZIER. That is the same as .25 caliber. Such weapons in the -United States as the .25-20 Winchester, .25-35, the .250 Savage, and -the .257 Roberts, are all of the same barrel diameter, or approximately -the same barrel diameter. So a decimal figure of .257 inch is the -equivalent of 6.5 mm. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And can you explain what the caliber is a measure of? - -Mr. FRAZIER. The caliber is the measure of the distance across the -raised portions or the lands in the barrel. The groove diameter, or -the spirals cut in the barrel to form the rifling, will be slightly -larger--in this case between 7/1000ths and 8/1000ths of an inch larger -than the actual bore diameter. - -The caliber is normally determined by the bore diameter. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain how you made the identification of this -rifle? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I identified it pictorially by comparing it with -pictures in reference books. And the actual identification was of the -manufacturer's name appearing on the barrel and serial number, which -indicated it was an Italian military rifle. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you independently determine the caliber of the rifle? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you tell us how you did that? - -Mr. FRAZIER. The caliber and the caliber type may be confusing here. - -The caliber, being the diameter of the barrel, is determined in two -ways--one, by comparing the barrel with 6.5mm. Mannlicher-Carcano -ammunition, which we also chambered in the weapon and determined that -it actually fit the weapon. And, secondly, we measured the width of -the barrel with, a micrometer. And in that connection, I would like to -point out that we made a sulphur cast of the muzzle of the weapon which -permitted us to use a micrometer to determine the land width and the -groove width in the barrel. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have that sulphur cast? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I do. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And that was made by you or under your supervision? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it was made by me. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I ask that this be admitted as Commission -Exhibit No. 540. - -The CHAIRMAN. It will be admitted. - -(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 540, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is there any reason that you can think of why this -Exhibit 139 might be thought to be a 7.35-or 7.65-caliber rifle? - -Mr. FRAZIER. From outward appearances, it could be a 7.35-mm. rifle, -because, basically, that is what it is. But its mechanism has been -rebarreled with a 6.5-mm. barrel. Photographs of the weapons are -similar, unless you make a very particular study of the photographs of -the original model 38 Italian military rifle, which is 7.35 mm. - -Early in the Second World War, however, the Italian Government barreled -many of these rifles with a 6.5-mm. barrel, since they had a quantity -of that ammunition on hand. I presume that would be the most logical -way of confusing this weapon with one of a larger caliber. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And is the 6.5-caliber weapon distinguished from the -7.35-caliber weapon by name? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it is; it is by the model number. The model 91/38 -designates the 6.5-mm. rifle, whereas the model 38 designates the 7.35. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you taken photographs of the various markings on -the rifle? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have those with you? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Actually, I think we forwarded those photographs to the -Commission. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Are these the photographs that you took, or had taken? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Has the Federal Bureau of Investigation been supplied -with information concerning the meanings and significances of these -various markings? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; we have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you state the source of that information? - -Mr. FRAZIER. This information came to us by mail as a result of an -inquiry of the Italian Armed Forces Intelligence Service, abbreviated -SIFAR, by letter dated March 26, 1964, through the FBI representative -in Rome, Italy. - -This information is classified as secret by the Italian Government, -who have advised that the material may be released to the Commission. -However, they desire the retention of the information in a secret -category. - -The CHAIRMAN. Is this essential to the proof? - -If it is not, I think we would rather not have it, because the fewer -things we have to keep in secret, the better the situation is for us. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Back on the record. - -Based on your experience with firearms, is the placement of a specific -serial number on a weapon generally confined to one weapon of a given -type? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it is. Particularly--may I refer to foreign weapons -particularly? - -The serial number consists of a series of numbers which normally will -be repeated. However, a prefix is placed before the number, which -actually must be part of the serial number, consisting of a letter. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you been able to confirm that the serial number on -this weapon is the only such number on such a weapon? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. All right. - -Now, without reference to any classified information, could you briefly -describe the markings shown on these photographs? - -Mr. FRAZIER. The first photograph is an overall photograph of the rifle. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Excuse me. - -These photographs--when you say "first photograph"--these photographs -are marked No. 1, No. 2, et cetera, on the back. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, they are. - -Photograph No. 1 is an overall photograph of the rifle. - -Photograph No. 2 is made of the top of the barrel, showing the serial -number C2766. - -Photograph No. 3 is also of the top of the rifle, showing a portion of -the inscription on the telescopic sight, and the figures 1940, which -is the manufacturer's date, the words "Made Italy" and a figure in the -form of a crown, under that the letters "R-E," and then a portion of -the word "Terni." - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain the significance of "Terni?" - -Mr. FRAZIER. Terni is the location for an Italian ordnance plant in -Italy where rifles are made, and it is apparent that this weapon was -made in Terni, because it is stamped with that name. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And the significance of that crown? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I think that would be just an Italian identification mark -or proof mark. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And are the words "Made Italy" likely to have been put -on the weapon at the time of manufacture or subsequently? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; the words "Made Italy" would be stamped on the -weapon by a purchaser or an individual desiring to send the weapon to -another country, to establish actually its origin. - -Photograph No. 4 is again of the top of the weapon showing the same -information--1940, "Made Italy," the crown, the place it was made, and -the inscription "Caliber 6.5" across the top of the rear sight. - -Photograph No. 5 shows a small circle which appears on the forward end -of the receiver, or that portion into which the barrel is screwed, with -the words "TNI" in the circle, and over these letters is again a small -crown. This could be a proof mark or an inspector's stamp. - -Photograph No. 6 is of an inscription on the side of the rear sight -which has the appearance of the letter "i," or the letter "l," -followed by a capital letter "A," and the capital letter "G," with the -numbers "47," and "2," stamped underneath them. I do not know what the -significance of that is. It could be, again, an inspector's stamp or a -proof mark of some type. - -Photograph No. 7 is made of the cocking piece on the end of the bolt, -which gives the word "Rocca." This apparently would be the name of the -manufacturer of that part of the rifle. - -Photograph No. 8 is an inscription "PG" on the top of the bolt of the -weapon. This inscription--I do not know of my own knowledge what that -is--but it could be the mark of a manufacturer or a proof mark or an -inspector's mark made at the time the handle was made to be welded to -the bolt. - -Photograph No. 9 was taken of the bottom of the receiver of the weapon, -with the stock removed. It shows the Number "40," which could refer -again to the year of manufacture, 1940, on the receiver, and at the -rear of the photograph a small lettered inscription referring again -to an inspector stamp, a proof stamp, of some nature. The identity of -this, I do not know. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I ask that these photographs be admitted -as a group under the number 541. - -The CHAIRMAN. You are going to put all of them in under one number? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. They have the subnumbers on the back, which will -differentiate them. - -The CHAIRMAN. They will be admitted. - -(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 541, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain why someone might call Exhibit 139 a -German-made Mauser rifle or a Mauser bolt-action rifle? - -Mr. FRAZIER. The Mauser was one of the earliest, if not the earliest, -and the basic bolt-action rifle, from which many others were copied. -And since this uses the same type of bolt system, it may have been -referred to as a Mauser for that reason. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Does this weapon show--how much use does this weapon -show? - -Mr. FRAZIER. The stock is worn, scratched. The bolt is relatively -smooth, as if it had been operated several times. I cannot actually say -how much use the weapon has had. The barrel is--was not, when we first -got it, in excellent condition. It was, I would say, in fair condition. -In other words, it showed the effects of wear and corrosion. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is this weapon---- - -The CHAIRMAN. I didn't get that last. - -Mr. FRAZIER. It showed the effects of wear and corrosion. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is this weapon used when it is sold into the United -States? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it is a surplus type of weapon. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So that it is impossible to attribute any given amount -of wear to the last user? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it is impossible. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you measured the dimensions of this rifle -assembled, and disassembled? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you give us that information? - -Mr. FRAZIER. The overall length is 40.2 inches. It weighs 8 pounds even. - -Mr. McCLOY. With the scope? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, with the scope. - -The CHAIRMAN. And the sling? - -Mr. FRAZIER. That is with the sling, yes, sir. The sling weighs 4-3/4 -ounces. The stock length is 34.8 inches, which is the wooden portion -from end to end with the butt plate attached. The barrel and action -from the muzzle to the rear of the tang, which is this portion at the -rearmost portion of the metal, is 28.9 inches. The barrel only is 21.18 -inches. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When you say, "this portion," Mr. Frazier, I don't think -that is coming down clear in the record. I wonder whether you could -rephrase that so as to describe the part of the barrel or part of the -stock to which you are pointing when you say "tang." - -Mr. FRAZIER. The tang is the rear of the receiver of the weapon into -which the rear mounting screw is screwed to hold the rearmost part of -the metal action of the weapon into the wooden stock. From the end of -that portion to the muzzle of the weapon is 28.9 inches. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And the length of the longest component when the rifle -is dissembled, Mr. Frazier? - -Mr. FRAZIER. 34.8 inches, which is the length of the stock, the wooden -portion. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe to us the telescopic sight on the rifle -in terms of---- - -Mr. McCLOY. Before you get to the sight, can I ask a question? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Surely. - -Mr. McCLOY. How soon after the assassination did you examine this rifle? - -Mr. FRAZIER. We received the rifle the following morning. - -Mr. McCLOY. Received it in Washington? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. And you immediately made your examination of it then? - -Mr. FRAZIER. We made an examination of it at that time, and kept it -temporarily in the laboratory. - -It was then returned to the Dallas Police Department, returned again to -the laboratory--the second time on November 27th, and has been either -in the laboratory's possession or the Commission's possession since -then. - -Mr. McCLOY. When you examined the rifle the first time, you said that -it showed signs of some corrosion and wear? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Was it what you would call pitted, were the lands in good -shape? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; the lands and the grooves were worn, the corners -were worn, and the interior of the surface was roughened from corrosion -or wear. - -Mr. McCLOY. Was there metal fouling in the barrel? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I did not examine it for that. - -Mr. McCLOY. Could you say roughly how many rounds you think had been -fired since it left the factory, with the condition of the barrel as -you found it? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I could not, because the number of rounds is not -an indication of the condition of the barrel, since if a barrel is -allowed to rust, one round will remove that rust and wear the barrel -to the same extent as 10 or 15 or 50 rounds just fired through a clean -barrel. - -Mr. McCLOY. Thank you. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you describe the telescopic sight on the rifle? -Magnification, country of origin? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It is a four-power telescopic sight employing crosshairs -in it as a sighting device, in the interior of the scope. - -It is stamped "Optics Ordnance Incorporated, Hollywood California," -and under that is the inscription "Made in Japan." It is a very -inexpensive Japanese telescopic sight. - -The mount attached to it was also made in Japan. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you removed the mount? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How many holes did you find drilled into the receiver? - -Mr. FRAZIER. There are two holes in the receiver. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you form an opinion as to whether these were -original holes or whether new holes--new and larger holes had been -formed over the original holes? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Normally, the receiver would have no holes at all, and -would have to be drilled and tapped for the screws. In the sight itself -there normally are three holes, two of which have been enlarged to -accommodate the two mounting screws presently holding the mount to the -rifle. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you think, based on your experience with types of -screws used in mounts, that these were the original screws and the -original holes for the screws? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I could not say--I could not answer that specifically. -However, they appear to be the same type of screw as is present on the -rest of the mount--although they are somewhat larger in size than the -remaining hole which is present in the lower portion of the mount. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, I now hand you a rifle which is marked C-250. Are -you familiar with this rifle? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe it briefly? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It is an identical rifle physically to the rifle -Commission's Exhibit 139, in that it is the same caliber, 6.5-mm. -Mannlicher-Carcano Italian Military rifle, Model 91/38. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you attempt to determine by use of this rifle -whether the scope was mounted on Exhibit 139 by the firm which is -thought to have sold Exhibit 139? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Would you repeat that, please? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. - -Did you make an attempt to determine, by use of this C-250, whether the -firm which had sold Exhibit 139 had mounted the scope on Exhibit 139? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe how you made that attempt? - -Mr. FRAZIER. We contacted the firm, Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago, -and asked them concerning this matter to provide us with a similar -rifle mounted in the way in which they normally mount scopes of this -type on these rifles, and forward the rifle to us for examination. - -In this connection, we did inform them that the scope should be in -approximately this position on the frame of the weapon. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Pardon me, Mr. Frazier. When you say "this position," so -that the record is clear could you---- - -Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes; in the position in which it now is, approximately -three-eighths of an inch to the rear of the receiver ring. - -Mr. EISENBERG. On the---- - -Mr. FRAZIER. On the C-250 rifle. - -When we received the rifle C-250, we examined the mount and found that -two of the holes had been enlarged, and that screws had been placed -through them and threaded into the receiver of the C-250 rifle. - -The third hole in the mount had not been used. - -We also found that an identical scope to the one on the Commission's -rifle 139 was present on the C-250 rifle. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Were the screws used in mounting the C-250 rifle--in -mounting the scope on the C-250 rifle--type of screws as those used in -mounting the scope on Exhibit 139? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And the holes were the same dimensions? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, they are. And the threads in the holes are the same. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like C-250 admitted into evidence -as Commission Exhibit 542. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 542, and -received in evidence.) - -The CHAIRMAN. At this time I will interrupt to say I must now leave -to attend a session of the Supreme Court, and I will return at the -conclusion of the session. - -In the meantime, Mr. McCloy will preside at the Commission hearing, -and in the event he should be required to leave, Mr. McCloy, whatever -Commissioner is here will conduct the examination in his absence. - -(At this point, Chairman Warren withdrew from the hearing room.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you examined the sling on Commission Exhibit 139? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you feel that this is--that this sling was originally -manufactured as a rifle sling? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it is not in any way similar to a normal sling -for a rifle. It appears to be a sling from some carrying case, camera -bag, musical-instrument strap, or something of that nature. - -We have made attempts to identify it, with no success. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Apart from the addition of this sling and mounting of -the telescopic sight, have any modifications been made in the C-139 -rifle--in the Commission Exhibit 139 rifle? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. You would suggest, I gather, Mr. Frazier, that this is a -homemade sling? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it appears to have been cut to length by -inserting this strap, or this sling, on the rifle, and then trimming -off the excess ends of the two straps to fit. - -Mr. McCLOY. How would that broad patch on the sling--how would that be -used, in your judgment, in firing the rifle? Would it be wrapped around -the base of your---- - -Mr. FRAZIER. I find it very difficult to use the rifle with a sling at -all. The sling is too short, actually, to do more than put your arm -through it. - -Mr. McCLOY. You get quite a leverage with that? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir, you do, in one direction. But it is rather -awkward to wrap the forward hand into the sling in the normal fashion. - -Mr. McCLOY. This gives a pretty tight---- - -Mr. FRAZIER. It can be used. But I don't feel that actually the -position of this broad piece is of too much significance as far as use -of the sling goes. - -Mr. McCLOY. But certainly the sling would tend to steady the aim, even -in this crude form? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. It would make more easy an offhand shot than if you didn't -have a sling? It would make it more accurate? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It would assist more in offhand than any other type of -shooting, yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Returning to the scope for a moment, on the basis of the -experiment, so to speak, which you had Klein's conduct, would you form -an opinion as to whether the telescopic sight was mounted on Exhibit -139--was likely to have been mounted--by Klein's, or likely to have -been mounted subsequently? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I could not deduce from that--from the way the scope -is mounted--who mounted it. I can only say that the two are mounted in -identical fashion. And it is possible that the same person or persons -mounted the two scopes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you briefly explain the operation of this rifle, -the bolt action and the clip-feed mechanism? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; the weapon is loaded by turning up the bolt -handle, drawing the bolt to the rear, and inserting the clip from the -top of the weapon, after the clip has been loaded with the number of -rounds you desire to load. - -The maximum number of rounds the clip holds is six. However, the weapon -can be loaded with a clip holding 5, 4, 3, 2, or 1 round. - -This is done by inserting the clip in the rear portion of the ejection -port, and pushing it downwards until it clears the bottom of the bolt. -The weapon then is loaded by moving the bolt forward. It picks up one -cartridge out of the clip, carries it into the chamber of the weapon, -and the bolt is then locked by turning down. - -To fire the weapon, it is merely necessary to pull the trigger, since -the closing of the bolt has cocked the cocking piece on the weapon. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you proceed to show the extraction and ejection -mechanism? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. The extraction is merely by raising the bolt -and drawing it to the rear. When the cartridge is first loaded, the -rim on the base of the cartridge is caught under the extractor in the -face of the bolt, so that drawing the bolt to the rear draws the fired -cartridge or a loaded cartridge if it has not been fired, out of the -chamber to the rear, where the opposite side of the cartridge strikes a -projection in the ejection port called the ejector. The ejector strikes -on the opposite side of the case from the extractor, causing the shell -to be thrown out of the weapon on the right-hand side. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, to fire the next shot, is any further action -necessary, apart from closing the bolt and pulling the trigger, if -remaining cartridges are in the clip? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you pull out the clip and explain any markings you -find on it? - -Mr. FRAZIER. The only markings are the manufacturer's markings, "SMI," -on the base of the clip, and a number, 952. The significance of that -number I am not aware of. It could be a part number or a manufacturer's -code number. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is there any reason that you can think of why someone -might call that a five-shot clip? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir, unless they were unfamiliar with it. There is an -area of confusion in that a different type of rifle shooting larger -ammunition, such as a .30-06 or a German Mauser rifle, uses five-shot -clips, and the five-shot clip is the common style or size of clip, -whereas this one actually holds six. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you had occasion to purchase ammunition for this -rifle? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Does the ammunition come in the clip? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Normally it does not. The ammunition that we have -purchased for this rifle comes in 20-shot boxes. It is possible--and I -say this as a result of reading advertisements--to buy ammunition for -this rifle, and to receive a clip or clips at the same time, but not -necessarily part of the same shipment. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When you ordered C-250, which is now Commission Exhibit -542, did you receive a clip with that rifle? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would you deduce, therefore, that the clip--that someone -wishing to shoot that rifle and use a clip in the rifle would have -purchased the clip later? - -Mr. FRAZIER. They would have to acquire it from some source, yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is it commonly available? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Can you use that rifle without the clip? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; you can. - -Mr. McCLOY. What is the advantage of the clip? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It permits repeated firing of the weapon without manually -loading one shot at a time. - -Mr. McCLOY. The only other way you can fire it is by way of manual load? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; one shot at a time. - -Mr. McCLOY. When you say a six-cartridge clip, could that gun have been -fired with the clip fully loaded and another one in the chamber? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. The same as the .30-06? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; the weapon will hold a maximum of seven. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I now hand you a cartridge in an envelope, marked -Commission Exhibit 141. Are you familiar with this cartridge? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I am. I received this cartridge for examination in -the FBI laboratory, submitted to me as a cartridge removed from the -rifle at the time it was recovered. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe that cartridge in terms of name, -manufacturer, and country of origin? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It is a 6.5 mm. Mannlicher-Carcano cartridge, manufactured -by the Western Cartridge Co., at East Alton, Ill. - -It is loaded with a full metal-jacketed bullet of the military type. -Cartridges of this type which I have examined, having this type of -bullet, have bullets weighing 160 to 161 grains. - -Mr. McCLOY. When you mentioned that cartridge as being a -Mannlicher-Carcano cartridge, could that be fired, for example, in a -Mannlicher 6.5 Schoenauer? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I am not familiar with that. - -Mr. McCLOY. That is the normal sporting rifle--that Mannlicher -Schoenauer is the normal 6.5 Austrian sporting rifle that you buy. I -just wondered if it was the same cartridge. - -Mr. FRAZIER. I am sorry. I don't know whether there is a distinction -between these two or not. - -Mr. McCLOY. I happen to have one of those. And I was just wondering if -it is the same cartridge. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, I now hand you a series of three cartridge -cases. I ask you whether you are familiar with these cartridge cases. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I am. I received these cartridge cases on two -different occasions for examination in the laboratory, and comparison -with the rifle. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do these cases have your mark on them? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; they do. Each is marked with my initials and the -inscription for identification purposes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like to introduce these cartridge -cases into evidence as Commission Exhibits 543, 544 and 545. - -Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted. - -(The articles referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 543, -544, and 545 and received in evidence.) - -Mr. McCLOY. Will you introduce evidence to show where they came from? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Well, sir, the record will show at the conclusion of the -hearings where they came from. This witness is able to identify them -only as to his examination. - -Mr. McCLOY. I understand that. I understand that witness cannot -identify them. But I simply asked for the record whether you have -evidence to show where they did come from. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; for the record, these cartridges were found on the -sixth floor of the School Book Depository Building. They were found -near the southeast corner window--that is, the easternmost window on -the southern face of the sixth floor of that building. - -Mr. Frazier, are these cartridge cases which have just been admitted -into evidence the same type of cartridge--from the same type of -cartridge--as you just examined, Commission Exhibit No. 141? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; they are. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is, 6.5 mm. Mannlicher-Carcano, manufactured by the -Western Cartridge Co.? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You gave the weight of the bullet which is found in this -type of cartridge. Could you give us a description of the contour of -the bullet, and its length? - -Mr. FRAZIER. The bullet has parallel sides, with a round nose, is fully -jacketed with a copper-alloy coating or metal jacket on the outside of -a lead core. Its diameter is 6.65 millimeters. The length--possibly -it would be better to put it in inches rather than millimeters. The -diameter is .267 inches, and a length of 1.185, or approximately 1.2 -inches. - -Mr. McCLOY. You say that the diameter is 6.65. Did you mean 6.65 or 6.5 -millimeters? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I was looking for that figure on that. It is about -6.6--6.65 millimeters. - -The bullet, of course, will be a larger diameter than the bore of the -weapon to accommodate the depths of the grooves in the barrel. - -On the base of the bullet is a crimp ring, or a cannelure, which is -located two-tenths of an inch from the base up the bullet and which is -6/100ths of an inch in width--that is, it is a band around the bullet -6/100ths of an inch wide. - -I believe that is a description of the bullet. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you tested Commission Exhibit 139 with the type of -ammunition you have been looking at to determine the muzzle velocity of -that type of ammunition in this weapon? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. The tests were run to determine the muzzle -velocity of this rifle, using this ammunition, at the Naval Research -Laboratory in Washington, D.C., on December 2, 1963, using two -different lots of ammunition--Lot No. 6,000 and Lot No. 6,003. - -I might point out that there were four lots of ammunition manufactured -by the Western Cartridge Co., only two of which are available. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you give the results? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Possibly I can give the results shot by shot, so the -record will show each one, and then give an average for them. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Fine. - -Mr. FRAZIER. The first shot, Lot 6,000, the velocity was 2199.7 feet -per second. - -Shot No. 2, Lot 6,000, velocity 2,180.3 feet per second. - -The third shot, velocity--same lot--velocity 2,178.9 feet per second. - -The third shot, velocity--and this is Lot No. 6,003--velocity was -2,184.8 feet per second. - -The fourth shot, Lot No. 6,003, was 2,137.6 feet per second. - -Fifth shot, Lot No. 6,000, 2,162.7 feet per second. - -The sixth shot, Lot 6,003, 2,134.8 feet per second. - -An average of all shots of 2,165 feet per second. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How would you characterize the differences between -the muzzle velocities of the various rounds in terms of whether that -difference was a large or small difference? - -Mr. FRAZIER. This is a difference well within the manufacturer's -accepted standards of velocity variations. They permit in their -standard ammunition manual, which is a guide to the entire industry in -the United States, a 40-foot-per-second, plus or minus, variation shot -to shot in the same ammunition. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you calculated the muzzle energy of this 6.5 -millimeter ammunition in this weapon? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It was furnished by letter to the Commission. Yes, -sir--the muzzle energy was calculated on the basis of the average -velocity of 2,165 feet per second as 1,676 foot-pounds. - -Mr. EISENBERG. This is a calculation rather than a measurement? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Necessarily a calculation, because it is merely a term -used to compare one bullet against another rather than for any -practical purposes because--because of the bullet's extremely light -weight. - -The bullet's velocity and weight, and gravity enter into the -determination of its energy in foot-pounds. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is the 6.5 millimeter Mannlicher-Carcano with which we -are dealing an accurate type of ammunition as opposed to other types -of military ammunition--as compared, I should say, with other types of -military ammunition? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I would say it is also accurate. As other types of -ammunition the 6.5 millimeter cartridge or bullet is a very accurate -bullet, and ammunition of this type as manufactured in the United -States would give fairly reasonable accuracy. Other military cartridges -may or may not give accurate results. - -But the cartridge inherently is an accurate cartridge. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is this type of cartridge readily available for purchase? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it is. Information we have indicates that 2 million -rounds of this ammunition was reimported into this country and placed -on sale. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Commission Exhibit No. 141, the cartridge found in -the chamber--I should say, was found in the chamber. Do you draw any -inference from the fact that the cartridge was found in the chamber? -In your experience, does one automatically reload whether or not one -intends to fire, or is there a special significance in the fact that -the cartridge had been chambered? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I would say no, there would be no inference which I could -draw based on human behavior as to why someone would or would not -reload a cartridge. Normally, if you were--in my experience--shooting -at some object, and it was no longer necessary to shoot, you would not -reload. - -You may or may not reload. It would be a normal thing to automatically -reload. But not necessarily in every instance. - -Mr. McCLOY. Do you have any information of your own knowledge as to -whether this cartridge was in the chamber or not at the time the rifle -was found? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Only as furnished to me--it was submitted as having been -removed from the rifle by the Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. McCLOY. As having been removed from the chamber? - -Mr. FRAZIER. From the chamber of the rifle. - -Mr. McCLOY. But you did not remove it yourself? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you make a test to determine the pattern of the -cartridge-case ejection of Commission Exhibit 139? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I made two studies in connection with the -ejection pattern--one to determine distance and one to determine the -angle at which the cartridge cases leave the ejection port. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And did you summarize your examination by diagrams? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you show us those diagrams? - -Mr. FRAZIER. In this diagram---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. Excuse me just a second, Mr. Frazier. - -Were these diagrams prepared by you? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; they were--not the actual physical diagrams, but the -figures on the diagrams were furnished by me to the draftsman. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I introduce these diagrams as -Commission Exhibits Nos. 546 and 547? - -Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted. - -(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 546 and -547, and were received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you give us the results of your tests by using -these diagrams, Mr. Frazier? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -In this test, Commission Exhibit 546, the diagram illustrates the -positions on the floor at which cartridge cases landed after being -extracted and ejected from the rifle, Commission's Exhibit 139. In -the top portion of Exhibit 546, the barrel was held depressed at a -45-degree angle, and in the lower half of the exhibit it shows the -pattern with the barrel held in a horizontal position. Each spot marked -with a figure on the diagram shows where one cartridge case landed in -both instances, and each one is marked with the distance and the angle -to which the cartridge case was ejected. - -With the barrel held in the depressed condition, all of the cartridge -cases landed within an 85-inch circle located 80 degrees to the right -front of the rifle. That may be confusing. It was 80 degrees to the -right from the line of sight of the rifle and at a distance of 86 -inches from the ejection port. - -Now, this circle will not necessarily encompass all cartridge cases -ejected from the rifle, since the ejection is determined, not only by -the angle of the weapon, but more by the force with which the bolt -is operated. A very light force on the bolt can cause the cartridge -case to tip gently out and fall at your feet. However, under normal -conditions of reloading in a fairly rapid manner, we found the -cartridge cases to land in this circle. - -The same situation is true of the test made with the muzzle in the -horizontal condition. - -All of the cartridge cases landed within a 47-inch circle, which was -located at right angles to the ejection port, or 90 degrees from the -line of sight, and at a distance 80 inches from the ejection port. - -In both of these tests, the ejection port of the weapon was held 32 -inches above the floor. - -In the second test performed, Commission Exhibit 547, the test was made -to ascertain how high above the ejection port a cartridge case would -fly as it was being ejected. - -After ejecting numerous cartridge cases from the weapon with the barrel -held in a depressed condition, it was found that the cartridge cases -did not exceed two inches above the level of the ejection port. And -with the muzzle held horizontally, it did not exceed 12 inches above -the level of the ejection port. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In making these tests, was the bolt pulled with a normal -degree of rifle pull? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It was pulled with various pulls, to determine what the -effect would be with different speeds of the bolt. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How did you select the distance above the floor at which -the rifle was fired? - -Mr. FRAZIER. We selected a distance which we thought might be typical -of a condition which would give an overall picture of the ejection -pattern, and not from any basis of previous information as to possibly -how the weapon had been fired previously. Thirty-two inches happened to -be approximately table height, so that we could control the height of -the weapon readily. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I now hand you three Commission Exhibits, 510, 511, and -512, which are photographs which have been identified as giving the -location of the cartridges--cartridge cases--Nos. 543, 544, and 545, -on the sixth floor of the School Book Depository Building. I ask you -to examine these pictures, and to determine whether if the rifle had -been fired from the window shown in these pictures, the location of the -cartridge cases is consistent with the results of the tests you ran to -determine the ejection patterns. - -Mr. FRAZIER. I would say yes; it is consistent--although the cartridge -cases are--two of them--against the wall. There is a stack of boxes -fairly near the wall, and the position of the cartridge cases could -very well have been affected by the boxes. That is, they could strike -the box and bounce for several feet, and they could have bounced back -and forth in this small area here and come to rest in the areas shown -in the photographs. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In making your tests, did you notice much ricochet? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; considerable. Each time a cartridge case hit the -floor, it would bounce anywhere from 8 inches to 10 to 15 feet. - -Mr. McCLOY. Make a lot of noise? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; a clatter. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you tested Commission Exhibit 139 to determine its -accuracy under rapid-fire conditions? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe these tests? - -Mr. FRAZIER. A series of three tests were made. When we first received -the rifle, there was not an opportunity to test it at long range, so -we tested it at short range. After we had obtained sample bullets and -cartridge cases from it, we fired accuracy and speed tests with it. -Three examiners did the firing, all three being present at the same -time. - -The first tests were made at 15 yards, and shooting at a silhouette -target. - -Mr. EISENBERG. A silhouette of a man? - -Mr. FRAZIER. A paper silhouette target of a man; yes. - -Possibly you may wish to mark these, to refer to them. - -Mr. EISENBERG. These targets were made by you or in your presence? - -Mr. FRAZIER. These are actually copies of the actual targets. I have -the actual targets here, if you would rather use those. However, the -markings show better on the copies than they do on the actual targets. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I request permission to introduce the -copies for the reasons given, as Commission Exhibits 548 and 549. - -Mr. McCLOY. You have made these copies, Mr. Frazier? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I had them made. They are actual xerox copies of the -original targets, which are black, and do not show the markings placed -around the holes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. McCLOY. Back on the record. - -Mr. Frazier, you have the original targets that were used in this -experiment. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Were you one of the three that fired? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Can you identify your target as distinguished from the -other two? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Do you have the target that you fired? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I fired--yes, I do. However, another examiner also fired -at this same target. - -Mr. McCLOY. Have you made a copy of that--or did you cause a copy of -that target to be made? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. And you have that with you? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I do. - -Mr. McCLOY. Have you marked it yet? - -Mr. EISENBERG. No. That would be 548. - -Mr. McCLOY. Suppose you identify that copy. - -Mr. EISENBERG. This copy that you are presenting to us has initials at -the bottom "CC-R-CK"? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And the numbers and letters D-2 on the right-hand margin? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And that has been copied under your supervision? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman? - -Mr. McCLOY. That can be admitted as Commission Exhibit 548. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 548, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. McCLOY. Now, is Commission Exhibit 548 an accurate copy of the -target which you have--that you fired, and which you presented? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you also have a copy here which has the name on -it Killion, and similar initials, letters, and numbers to the other -target. Is this an accurate copy which you had prepared? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. That was the target fired by Charles Killion in -my presence. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this admitted as 549? - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 549, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. This test was performed at 15 yards, did you say, Mr. -Frazier? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. And this series of shots we fired to determine -actually the speed at which the rifle could be fired, not being overly -familiar with this particular firearm, and also to determine the -accuracy of the weapon under those conditions. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And could you give us the names of the three agents who -participated? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Charles Killion, Cortlandt Cunningham, and -myself. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And the date? - -Mr. FRAZIER. November 27, 1963. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How many shots did each agent fire? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Killion fired three, Cunningham fired three, and I fired -three. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And do you have the times within which each agent fired -the three shots? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Killion fired his three shots in nine seconds, -and they are shown--the three shots are interlocking, shown on -Commission Exhibit No. 549. - -Cunningham fired three shots--I know the approximate number of seconds -was seven. - -Cunningham's time was approximately seven seconds. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you at a later date confirm the exact time? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And you will do that by letter to the Commission, or if -you happen to come back by oral testimony? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And your time, Mr. Frazier? - -Mr. FRAZIER. For this series, was six seconds, for my three shots, -which also were on the target at which Mr. Cunningham fired, which is -Exhibit 548. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you characterize the dispersion of the shots on -the two targets which you have been showing us, 548 and 549? - -Mr. FRAZIER. The bullets landed approximately--in Killion's target, No. -549, approximately 2-1/2 inches high, and 1 inch to the right, in the -area about the size of a dime, interlocking in the paper, all three -shots. - -On Commission Exhibit 548, Cunningham fired three shots. These shots -were interlocking, or within an eighth of an inch of each other, and -were located approximately 4 inches high and 1 inch to the right of -the aiming point. The three shots which I fired were--landed in a -three-quarter inch circle, two of them interlocking with Cunningham's -shots, 4 inches high, and approximately 1 inch to the right of the -aiming point. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe the second series of tests? - -Mr. FRAZIER. The second test which was performed was two series of -three shots at 25 yards, instead of 15 yards. I fired both of these -tests, firing them at a cardboard target, in an effort to determine -how fast the weapon could be fired primarily, with secondary purpose -accuracy. - -We did not attempt--I did not attempt to maintain in that test an -accurate rate of fire. - -This is the actual target which I fired. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And that target has all six holes in it? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir--two series of three holes, the first three holes -being marked with the No. 1, and the second series being marked No. 2. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like this introduced as 550. - -Mr. McCLOY. That will be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 550, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you describe for the record the dispersion on the -two series? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. The first series of three shots were -approximately--from 4 to 5 inches high and from 1 to 2 inches to the -right of the aiming point, and landed within a 2-inch circle. These -three shots were fired in 4.8 seconds. The second series of shots -landed--one was about 1 inch high, and the other two about 4 or 5 -inches high, and the maximum spread was 5 inches. - -That series was fired in 4.6 seconds. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And do you have the date? - -Mr. FRAZIER. That also was on the 27th of November. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Same date as the first tests? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And you performed one more test, I believe? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. We fired additional targets at 100 yards on the -range at Quantico, Va., firing groups of three shots. And I have the -four targets we fired here. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like these admitted as 551, 552, -553, and 554. - -Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted. - -(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 551 -through 554, and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Who fired these shots, Mr. Frazier? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I fired them. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you characterize the dispersion on each of the four -targets? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -On Commission Exhibit 551 the three shots landed approximately 5 inches -high and within a 3-1/2-inch circle, almost on a line horizontally -across the target. This target and the other targets were fired on -March 16, 1964 at Quantico, Va. These three shots were fired in 5.9 -seconds. - -The second target fired is Commission Exhibit 552, consisting of three -shots fired in 6.2 seconds, which landed in approximately a 4-1/2 to -5-inch circle located 4 inches high and 3 or 4 inches to the right of -the aiming point. - -Commission Exhibit No. 553 is the third target fired, consisting of -three shots which landed in a 3-inch circle located about 2-1/2 inches -high and 2 inches to the right of the aiming point. - -These three shots were fired in 5.6 seconds. - -And Commission Exhibit No. 554, consisting of three shots fired in 6.5 -seconds, which landed approximately 5 inches high and 5 inches to the -right of the aiming point, all within a 3-1/2-inch circle. - -Mr. McCLOY. The first one is not exactly 5 inches to the right, is it? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. The center of the circle in which they all landed -would be about 5 inches high and 5 inches to the right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, could you tell us why, in your opinion, all -the shots, virtually all the shots, are grouped high and to the right -of the aiming point? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. When we attempted to sight in this rifle at -Quantico, we found that the elevation adjustment in the telescopic -sight was not sufficient to bring the point of impact to the aiming -point. In attempting to adjust and sight-in the rifle, every time we -changed the adjusting screws to move the crosshairs in the telescopic -sight in one direction it also affected the movement of the impact -or the point of impact in the other direction. That is, if we moved -the crosshairs in the telescope to the left it would also affect the -elevation setting of the telescope. And when we had sighted-in the -rifle approximately, we fired several shots and found that the shots -were not all landing in the same place, but were gradually moving away -from the point of impact. This was apparently due to the construction -of the telescope, which apparently did not stabilize itself--that is, -the spring mounting in the crosshair ring did not stabilize until we -had fired five or six shots. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Pardon me, Mr. Frazier. Have you prepared a diagram of -the telescopic sight? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I wonder whether you could show us that now to help -illustrate the point you are making. - -Let me mark that. - -This diagram was prepared by you? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it was. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And illustrates---- - -Mr. FRAZIER. Excuse me. The actual diagram was copied by me from a -textbook, showing a diagrammatic view of how a telescopic crosshair -ring is mounted in a telescope. - -Mr. EISENBERG. This is a generalized diagram, rather than a diagram of -the specific scope on Exhibit 139? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it is. However, I have checked the scope on Exhibit -139 and found it to be substantially the same as this diagram. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this admitted as 555? - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 555, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. FRAZIER. Commission Exhibit No. 555 is a diagrammatic drawing of -the manner in which the crosshair ring is mounted in Exhibit 139, -showing on the right-hand side of the diagram a circular drawing -indicating the outer part of the tube, with an inner circle with a -crossed line in it representing the crosshairs in the telescope. - -There is an elevation-adjusting screw at the top, which pushes the -crosshair ring down against a spring located in the lower left-hand -portion of the circle, or which allows the crosshair ring to come up, -being pushed by the spring on the opposite side of the ring. There is -a windage screw on the right-hand side of the scope tube circle which -adjusts the crosshair ring laterally for windage adjustments. - -The diagram at the left side of Commission's Exhibit 555 shows -diagrammatically the blade spring mounted in the telescope tube which -causes the ring to be pressed against the adjusting screws. - -We found in this telescopic sight on this rifle that this ring was -shifting in the telescope tube so that the gun could not be sighted-in -merely by changing the screws. It was necessary to adjust it, and -then fire several shots to stabilize the crosshair ring by causing -this spring to press tightly against the screws, to the point that -we decided it would not be feasible to completely sight the weapon -inasfar as windage goes, and in addition found that the elevation screw -could not be adjusted sufficiently to bring the point of impact on the -targets down to the sighting point. - -And, therefore, we left the rifle as soon as it became stabilized and -fired all of our shots with the point of impact actually high and to -the right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. As I understand it, the construction of the scope is -such that after the elevation or windage screw has been moved, the -scope does not--is not--automatically pushed up by the blade spring as -it should be, until you have fired several shots? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; that is true--when the crosshairs are largely out -of the center of the tube. And in this case it is necessary to move -the crosshairs completely up into the upper portion of the tube, which -causes this spring to bear in a position out of the ordinary, and for -this windage screw to strike the side or the sloping surface of the -ring rather than at 90 degrees, as it shows in Exhibit 555. With this -screw being off center, both in windage and elevation, the spring is -not strong enough to center the crosshair ring by itself, and it is -necessary to jar it several times, which we did by firing, to bring it -to bear tightly so as to maintain the same position then for the next -shots. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And because of the difficulty you had stabilizing the -crosshair, you did not wish to pursue it to a further refinement, is -that correct? - -Mr. FRAZIER. We sighted the scope in relatively close, fired it, and -decided rather than fire more ammunition through the weapon, we would -use these targets which we had fired. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, once the crosshairs had been stabilized, did you -find that they stayed, remained stabilized? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; they did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How long do you think the crosshairs would remain -stabilized in Exhibit 139, assuming no violent jar? - -Mr. FRAZIER. They should remain stabilized continuously. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you know when the defect in this scope, which causes -you not to be able to adjust the elevation crosshair in the manner it -should be--do you know when this defect was introduced into the scope? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No; I do not. However, on the back end of the scope tube -there is a rather severe scrape which was on this weapon when we -received it in the laboratory, in which some of the metal has been -removed, and the scope tube could have been bent or damaged. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you first test the weapon for accuracy on November -27th? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you any way of determining whether the defect -pre-existed November 27th? - -Mr. FRAZIER. When we fired on November 27th, the shots were landing -high and slightly to the right. However, the scope was apparently -fairly well stabilized at that time, because three shots would land in -an area the size of a dime under rapid-fire conditions, which would not -have occurred if the interior mechanism of the scope was shifting. - -Mr. EISENBERG. But you are unable to say whether--or are you able -to say whether--the defect existed before November 27th? That is, -precisely when it was introduced? - -Mr. FRAZIER. As far as to be unable to adjust the scope, actually, I -could not say when it had been introduced. I don't know actually what -the cause is. It may be that the mount has been bent or the crosshair -ring shifted. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, when you were running, let's say, the last -test, could you have compensated for this defect? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; you could take an aiming point low and to the left -and have the shots strike a predetermined point. But it would be no -different from taking these targets and putting an aiming point in the -center of the bullet-impact area. Here that would be the situation you -would have--an aiming point off to the side and an impact area at the -high right corner. - -Mr. EISENBERG. If you had been shooting to score bulls-eyes, in a -bulls-eye pattern, what would you have--what action, if any, would you -have taken, to improve your score? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I would have aimed low and to the left--after finding how -high the bullets were landing; you would compensate by aiming low left, -or adjusting the mount of the scope in a manner which would cause the -hairlines to coincide with the point of impact. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How much practice had you had with the rifle before the -last series of four targets were shot by you? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I had fired it possibly 20 rounds, 15 to 20 rounds, and in -addition had operated the bolt repeatedly. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Does practice with this weapon--or would practice with -this weapon--materially shorten the time in which three shots could be -accurately fired? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; very definitely. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would practice without actually firing the weapon be -helpful--that is, a dry-run practice? - -Mr. FRAZIER. That would be most helpful, particularly in a bolt-action -weapon, where it is necessary to shift your hand from the trigger area -to the bolt, operate the bolt, and go back to the trigger after closing -the bolt. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Based on your experience with the weapon, do you think -three shots could be fired accurately within 5-1/2 seconds if no rest -was utilized? - -Mr. FRAZIER. That would depend on the accuracy which was necessary -or needed or which you desired. I think you could fire the shots in -that length of time, but whether you could place them, say, in a 3- or -4-inch circle without either resting or possibly using the sling as a -support--I doubt that you could accomplish that. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How--these targets at which you fired stationary at 100 -yards--how do you think your time would have been affected by use of a -moving target? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It would have slowed down the shooting. It would have -lengthened the time to the extent of allowing the crosshairs to pass -over the moving target. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you give an amount? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Approximately 1 second. It would depend on how fast the -target was moving, and whether it was moving away from you or towards -you or at right angles. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you think you could shorten your time with further -practice with the weapon? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you give us an estimate on that? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I fired three shots in 4.6 seconds at 25 yards with -approximately a 3-inch spread, which is the equivalent of a 12-inch -spread at a hundred yards. And I feel that a 12-inch relative circle -could be reduced to 6 inches or even less with considerable practice -with the weapon. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is in the 4.6-second time? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. I would say from 4.8 to 5 seconds, in that area--4.6 -is firing this weapon as fast as the bolt can be operated, I think. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I am now going to ask you several hypothetical -questions concerning the factors which might have affected the aim -of the assassin on November 22d, and I would like you to make the -following assumptions in answering these questions: First, that the -assassin fired his shots from the window near which the cartridges were -found--that is, the easternmost window on the south face of the sixth -floor of the School Book Depository Building, which is 60 feet above -the ground, and several more feet above the position at which the car -was apparently located when the shots were fired. - -Second, that the length of the trajectory of the first shot was 175 -feet, and that the length of the trajectory of the third shot was 265 -feet. - -And third, that the elapsed time between the firing of the first and -third shots was 5-1/2 seconds. - -Based on those assumptions, Mr. Frazier, approximately what lead -would the assassin have had to give his target to compensate for its -movement--and here I would disregard any possible defect in the scope. - -Mr. FRAZIER. I would say he would have to lead approximately 2 feet -under both such situations. The lead would, of course, be dependent -upon the direction in which the object was moving, primarily. If it is -moving away from you, then, of course, the actual lead of, say, 2 feet -which he would have to lead would be interpreted as a considerably less -lead in elevation above the target, because the target will move the 2 -feet in a direction away from the shooter, and the apparent lead then -would be cut to one foot or 12 inches or 8 inches or something of that -nature, due to the movement of the individual. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you made calculations to achieve the figures you -gave? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I made the calculations, but I don't have them with me. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you supply these to us, either in further -testimony or by letter, Mr. Frazier? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I have one object here, a diagram which will illustrate -that lead, if you would like to use that. This is drawn to scale from -those figures which you quoted as building height, and distances of 175 -feet and 265 feet. - -Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, these figures are approximations of the -figures believed to be involved in the assassination. - -Will you supply the data at a later date? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I can furnish that. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have permission to introduce this as 556? - -Mr. McCLOY. That will be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 556, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you show the lead in that diagram, Mr. Frazier? - -Mr. FRAZIER. In Commission Exhibit 556, it shows a triangular diagram -with the vertical line on the left-hand side illustrating the height of -the building. The figures of a 60-foot building height plus---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is height of the muzzle above the ground? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No--window sill--60-foot window sill height above the -ground, with an assumed 2-foot height in addition to accommodate the -height of the rifle above the possible--the possible height of the -rifle above the window sill. - -The horizontal line extends outward from the building to a small -rectangular block, and then a sloping line illustrates a 5-foot slope -from the 175-foot point to the 265-foot point. - -(At this point, Representative Boggs entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. FRAZIER. The time of flight of the bullet of approximately 8/100ths -of a second and, again, it was necessary to assume--the time of flight -of the bullet from the window to this first location of 175 feet is -approximately 8/100ths of a second, which means a 2-foot lead on the -target. That is, the target would move 2 feet in that interval of time, -thereby necessitating shooting slightly ahead of the target to hit your -aiming point. That has been diagrammatically illustrated by a 2-foot -distance laid off on this rectangular block here, and two lines, very -fine lines, drawn back towards the window area. - -The right-hand side of Commission's 556 shows the same rectangular -block, again with two lines drawn to it, one illustrating the point of -aim and the other the amount of lead which would be necessary to strike -an object aimed at which was moving, according to the time of flight of -the projectile. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And you calculated the speed of the car by translating -the figures on total time elapsed between first and third shots? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. The time--the speed of the moving object was -calculated on the basis of an assumed 5.5-second interval for a -distance of 90 feet, which figures out mathematically to be 11.3 miles -per hour. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you said before that in order to give this 2-foot -lead, you would have to aim 2 inches--for a target going away from you, -you would have to aim 2 inches above the target, or in front of the -target. - -Mr. FRAZIER. 2 feet in front of the target, which would interpolate -into a much lower actual elevation change. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The elevation change would be 2 inches, is that it? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, no. It would be on the order of 6 to 8 inches. - -Mr. EISENBERG. 6 to 8 inches? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What was your 2-inch figure? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I don't recall. - -Mr. EISENBERG. But it is 6 to 8 inches in elevation? - -Representative BOGGS. May I ask a question? - -Using that telescopic lens, how would you aim that rifle to achieve -that distinction? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, it would be necessary to hold the crosshairs an -estimated distance off the target, of say, 6 inches over the intended -target, so what when the shot was fired the crosshairs should be -located about 6 inches over your target, and in the length of time -that the bullet was in the air and the length of time the object was -moving, the object would move into actually, the path of the bullet in -approximately 1/10th to 13/100ths of a second. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So that if the target of the assassin was the center of -the President's head, and he wanted to give a correct lead, where would -he have aimed, if we eliminate the possibility of errors introduced by -other factors? - -Mr. FRAZIER. He would aim from 4 to 6 inches--approximately 2 inches, I -would say, above the President's head, which would be actually 6 inches -above his aiming point at the center of the head. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How difficult is it to give this--a lead of this -size--to this type of target? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It would not be difficult at all with a telescopic sight, -because your target is enlarged four times, and you can estimate very -quickly in a telescopic sight, inches or feet or lead of any desired -amount. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would it be substantially easier than it would be with -an open or peep sight? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. It would be much more difficult to do with the open -iron sights, the notched rear sight and the blade front sight, which is -on Exhibit 139. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you have been able to calculate the precise amount -of lead which should be given, because you have been given figures. If -you had been in the assassin's position, and were attempting to give a -correct lead, what lead do you think you would have estimated as being -the necessary lead? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It would have been a very small amount, in the -neighborhood of a 3-inch lead. - -Mr. EISENBERG. As opposed to the 6 or 8 inches? - -Mr. FRAZIER. As opposed to about 6 inches, yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What would the consequence of the mistake in assumption -as to lead be--that is, if you gave a 3-inch lead rather than the -correct lead? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It would be a difference of a 3-inch variation in the -point of impact on the target. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, if you had aimed at the center of the President's -head, and given a 3-inch lead, again eliminating other errors, where -would you have hit, if you hit accurately? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It would be 3 inches below the center of his head--from -the top--it would be not the actual center from the back, but the -center would be located high. The bullet would strike at possibly the -base of the skull. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, suppose you had given no lead at all and aimed at -that target and aimed accurately. Where would the bullet have hit? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It would hit the base of the neck--approximately 6 inches -below the center of the head. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, would you have tried to give a lead at all, -if you had been in that position? - -Mr. FRAZIER. At that range, at that distance, 175 to 265 feet, with -this rifle and that telescopic sight, I would not have allowed any -lead--I would not have made any correction for lead merely to hit a -target of that size. - -Mr. McCLOY. May I ask a question? - -In your experimentation, in your firing of those shots that you have -testified to a little while back, when you fired the first shot, was -the shot in the chamber, or did you have to push it into the chamber by -use of the bolt? - -Mr. FRAZIER. This was fired with a loaded chamber, and timed from the -time of this first shot until the last shot. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you shoot offhand or did you shoot with a rest? - -Mr. FRAZIER. We shot with a rest, both the other individuals and -myself, on each occasion, with one arm resting on a bench or a table. - -Mr. McCLOY. Were you prone, or were you standing up? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, we were sitting, actually, sitting or kneeling, in -order to bring the arm down to the rest we were using. - -Mr. McCLOY. One other question. - -You keep referring to, and the questions kept referring to, "lead." By -"lead," in this instance, you would mean height above the aiming point -rather than---- - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. To the right, let's say, of the aiming point? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. McCLOY. Because it was a going away shot? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. That is all. - -Representative BOGGS. May I ask a question? - -Where did you conduct these tests? - -Mr. FRAZIER. The targets were fired both on the indoor range in the -FBI range here in Washington and the 100-yard tests were fired at the -Quantico, Va., FBI ranges. - -Representative BOGGS. Have any tests--have there been any simulated -tests in the building in Texas? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I don't know, sir. - -Representative BOGGS. But the FBI has not conducted any? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Not to my knowledge. There may have been measurements and -things of that nature taken, but I don't know. - -Representative BOGGS. Now, in these tests, was there any difficulty -about firing this rifle three times within the space or period of time -that has been given to the Commission--5 seconds, I think. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, let me say this. I fired the rifle three times, -in accordance with that system of timing it from the first shot with -the chamber loaded until the last shot occurred--three times in 4.6 -seconds, 4.8 seconds, 5.6 seconds, 5.8, 5.9, and another one a little -over 6, or in that neighborhood. The tenth of a second variation could -very easily be as a result of the timing procedure used. A reflex of -just not stopping the stopwatch in a tenth of a second. - -Representative BOGGS. You were firing at a simulated target? - -Mr. FRAZIER. These targets previously introduced, or copies of the -targets, are those which we actually fired. - -Representative BOGGS. My questions are really a followup of the -Chairman's question. - -These practices--were you just practicing for time, or were you -practicing under conditions similar to those existing in Dallas at the -time of the assassination? - -Mr. FRAZIER. The tests we ran were for the purposes of determining -whether we could fire this gun accurately in a limited amount of time, -and specifically to determine whether it could be fired accurately in 6 -seconds. - -Now, we assumed the 6 seconds empirically--that is, we had not been -furnished with any particular time interval. Later we were furnished -with a time interval of 5.5 seconds. However, I have no independent -knowledge--had no independent knowledge of the time interval or the -accuracy. But we merely fired it to demonstrate the results from -rapidly firing the weapon, reloading the gun and so on, in a limited -time. - -Representative BOGGS. Were there other tests conducted to determine the -accuracy of the weapon and so on? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir--only the rapid-fire accuracy tests were fired by -the FBI. - -Representative BOGGS. There is no reason to believe that this weapon is -not accurate, is there? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It is a very accurate weapon. The targets we fired show -that. - -Representative BOGGS. That was the point I was trying to establish. - -Mr. FRAZIER. This Exhibit 549 is a target fired, showing that the -weapon will, even under rapid-fire conditions, group closely--that is, -one shot with the next. - -Representative BOGGS. How many shots in the weapon? Five? - -Mr. McCLOY. The clip takes six itself. You can put a seventh in the -chamber. It could hold seven, in other words. But the clip is only a -six-shot clip. - -Representative BOGGS. Was the weapon fully loaded at the time of the -assassination? - -Mr. McCLOY. I don't know how many shells--three shells were picked up. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. McCLOY. Back on the record. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, turning back to the scope, if the elevation -crosshair was defective at the time of the assassination, in the same -manner it is now, and no compensation was made for this defect, how -would this have interacted with the amount of lead which needed to be -given to the target? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, may I say this first. I do not consider the -crosshair as being defective, but only the adjusting mechanism does not -have enough tolerance to bring the crosshair to the point of impact -of the bullet. As to how that would affect the lead--the gun, when we -first received it in the laboratory and fired these first targets, shot -high and slightly to the right. - -If you were shooting at a moving target from a high elevation, -relatively high elevation, moving away from you, it would be necessary -for you to shoot over that object in order for the bullet to strike -your intended target, because the object during the flight of the -bullet would move a certain distance. - -The fact that the crosshairs are set high would actually compensate for -any lead which had to be taken. So that if you aimed with this weapon -as it actually was received at the laboratory, it would be necessary to -take no lead whatsoever in order to hit the intended object. The scope -would accomplish the lead for you. - -I might also say that it also shot slightly to the right, which would -tend to cause you to miss your target slightly to the right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, on that last question, did you attempt to center -the windage crosshair, to sight-in the windage crosshair? - -Mr. FRAZIER. We attempted to, and found that it was changing--the -elevation was changing the windage. So we merely left the windage as it -was. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you say conclusively that the windage crosshair -could not be centered in, sighted-in? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. I would say that the windage could have been -centered in the telescope to bring the windage to the aiming line. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So that--and if that had been done, then you would not -have this problem of dispersion to the right? - -Mr. FRAZIER. That's true. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, turning to---- - -Representative BOGGS. Excuse me just a moment. Do you have any opinion -on whether or not the sight was deliberately set that way? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I do not. And I think I must say here that this -mount was loose on the rifle when we received it. And apparently -the scope had even been taken off of the rifle, in searching for -fingerprints on the rifle. So that actually the way it was sighted-in -when we got it does not necessarily mean it was sighted-in that way -when it was abandoned. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Carrying this question a little bit further on the -deliberateness of the sighting-in, the problem with the elevation -crosshair is built into the mounting of the scope, is that correct? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. The mount is not screwed to the rifle in such a -fashion that it points the scope at the target closely enough to -permit adjusting the crosshair to accurately sight-in the rifle. - -Representative BOGGS. One other question, then. - -It is possible, is it not, to so adjust the telescopic sight to -compensate for that change in the target? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes. You can accomplish that merely by putting shims -under the front of the scope and over the back of the scope to tip the -scope in the mount itself, to bring it into alinement. - -Representative BOGGS. So an accomplished person, accustomed to using -that weapon, anticipating a shot of that type, might very well have -made such an adjustment prior to using the rifle; isn't that so? - -Mr. FRAZIER. If it were necessary; yes. There were no shims in the -weapon, either under the mount, where it screws to the weapon, or in -the two mounting rings, when we received it in the laboratory. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have any shims with you, Mr. Frazier? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. When we received the weapon yesterday, there were -shims mounted in the rifle. The one under the front end of the mount is -in this envelope. - -Representative BOGGS. But they were not there when you received it -originally? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. These were placed there by some other individual. - -Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, these were placed by the ballistics -laboratory of the Army, a representative of which will testify later. - -Now, turning to another possible source of error in aim, Mr. Frazier, -if a rifle such as Exhibit 139 is sighted-in with the use of a target -at a given distance, and it is aimed at a target which is further away -or closer than the target which was used for sighting-in purposes, -will any error be introduced by reason of the fact that the target is -further or closer away than the sighting-in target? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it will, because the bullet in leaving the muzzle -follows a curved path rather than a straight path, and in order to hit -a specific target at a specific range, it is necessary for the bullet -to travel up and drop down to the target, rather than have the bore -pointed right at the target at the time of discharge. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you calculate the amount of error which would be -introduced by a specific projectile? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you made such calculations? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I have taken calculations for similar weight and velocity -bullets from ballistics tables, which bullets approximate the velocity -of the 6.5 mm. bullet and the weight of that bullet as fired from 139. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Are these results affected by the rifle which is -employed, or do they depend upon the missile? - -Mr. FRAZIER. They depend upon the weight and shape of the missile and -the velocity, but not upon the weapon. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you give us the results of these calculations? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; if you, for instance, take this rifle with a -telescopic sight and sight it in for 300 feet--that is, the bullet will -strike where you are looking when you are shooting at 300 feet--at -200 feet the bullet will be above the line of sight approximately -one-quarter of an inch, and at 100 feet it will be approximately -one-quarter of an inch below the line of sight. That is accomplished -because the bullet is still coming up at 100 feet, it crosses the -line of sight, and does not descend again to it until you come to the -sighting-in distance of 300 feet. - -If you sighted-in to strike at 450 feet, the bullet at 100 feet would -be just at the line of sight--that is, on its way up would just cross -the line of sight at about 100 feet. It would be one inch high at 200 -feet, and approximately one and one-eighth inches high at 300 feet. - -It would, of course, drop back down to the point of aim at 450 feet. If -you sighted-in at 600 feet, then at 100 feet it would be approximately -one-half inch high. At 200 feet it would be 2 inches high, and at 300 -feet it would be approximately 3 inches high. - -Representative BOGGS. Is this a stationary target? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, this is shooting from a rest at a stationary target. - -Representative BOGGS. This is just a normal---- - -Mr. FRAZIER. This is just the trajectory of the bullet. - -Representative BOGGS. I understand. - -Mr. FRAZIER. As calculated---- - -Mr. McCLOY. Putting it another way, what would be the drop of the -bullet at a hundred yards if you aim point-blank straight at that -target? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Assuming no sighting or anything, the bullet would drop -about 1.2 inches from the line of the bore at 100 yards. - -Representative BOGGS. 1.2 inches? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Representative BOGGS. But now the telescopic sight at a hundred yards -would correct that? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Actually, you would sight so that the muzzle is -tipped up slightly with reference to the sight. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The error would be introduced if you shot at a target -which is closer or further away than the sighting-in target; is that -correct? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, that's right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would you characterize these errors as material? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I would not--unless you began shooting at -distances well beyond your sighting-in point--then the amount of -variation increases very rapidly. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What would be the usual minimum distance you use for -sighting-in a weapon such as Exhibit 139? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It would vary from place to place depending upon shooting -conditions, and I would say it would seldom be sighted-in for less than -150 or 200 yards. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So that if the shots involved in the assassination were -fired at 175 feet and 265 feet respectively, they would be shorter than -the sighting-in distance and therefore not materially affected by the -trajectory characteristics, is that correct? - -Mr. FRAZIER. That is correct, yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, based upon the characteristics of Exhibit 139, -and the ammunition it employs, and based upon your experience with -the weapon, would you consider it to have been a good choice for the -commission of a crime such as the assassination? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I would. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain that? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. Any rifle, regardless of its caliber, would be a good -choice if it would shoot accurately. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And did you find this shot accurately? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Representative BOGGS. Would you consider the shots difficult -shots--talking about the shots from the sixth-floor window to the head -of the President and to Governor Connally? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I would not under the circumstances--a relatively -slow-moving target, and very short distance, and a telescopic sight. - -Representative BOGGS. You are not answering that as an expert. - -Mr. FRAZIER. From my own experience in shooting over the years, when -you shoot at 175 feet or 260 feet, which is less than a hundred yards, -with a telescopic sight, you should not have any difficulty in hitting -your target. - -Representative BOGGS. Putting my question another way, you would not -have to be an expert marksman to accomplish this objective? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I would say no, you certainly would not. - -Representative BOGGS. And a man is a relatively large target, is he not? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I would say you would have to be very familiar -with the weapon to fire it rapidly, and do this--hit this target at -those ranges. But the marksmanship is accomplished by the telescopic -sight. I mean it requires no training at all to shoot a weapon with a -telescopic sight once you know that you must put the crosshairs on the -target and that is all that is necessary. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How does the recoil of this weapon compare with the -recoil of the average military rifle? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Considerably less. The recoil is nominal with this -weapon, because it has a very low velocity and pressure, and just an -average-size bullet weight. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would that trend to improve the shooter's marksmanship? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Under rapid-fire conditions, yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would that make it a better choice than a more -powerfully recoiling weapon for the type of crime which was committed? - -Mr. FRAZIER. For shooting rapidly, this would be a much better choice, -because the recoil does not throw the muzzle nearly so far off the -target, it does not jar the shooter nearly so much, as a higher-powered -rifle, such as a .30/06 or a .270 Winchester, or a German 8 mm. Mauser, -for instance, or one of the other military-type weapons available. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is the killing power of the bullets essentially similar -to the killing power at these ranges--the killing power of the rifles -you have named? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How much difference is there? - -Mr. FRAZIER. The higher velocity bullets of approximately the same -weight would have more killing power. This has a low velocity, but has -very adequate killing power with reference to humans, because it is a -military--it is an established military weapon. - -Representative BOGGS. This is a military weapon, is it not? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. That is designed to kill a human being. - -Representative BOGGS. Exactly. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Unless there are further questions on the weapon, I am -going to move into the area of the identification of the cartridge -cases and the bullets. - -Mr. McCLOY. I may say I have to leave at twelve o'clock for a -twelve-fifteen appointment. I will be back this afternoon. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, returning to the cartridge cases which were -marked earlier into evidence as Commission Exhibits 543, 544, and 545, -and which, as I stated earlier for the record, had been found next to -the window of the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository, can -you tell us when you received those cartridge cases? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I received the first of the exhibits, 543 and -544, on November 23, 1963. They were delivered to me by Special Agent -Vincent Drain of the Dallas FBI Office. - -And the other one I received on November 27, 1963, which was delivered -by Special Agents Vincent Drain and Warren De Brueys of the Dallas -Office. - -Mr. EISENBERG. After receiving these cartridge cases, did you clean -them up or in any way prepare them for examination? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. The bases were cleaned of a paint which was placed on -them by the manufacturer. In spots this red lacquer on the base of the -case was overlapping the head of the case where some of the microscopic -marks were located, and some of that color was taken off. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Why is that lacquer put on the cartridge cases? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It seals the primer area against moisture. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Were there any other changes made in the preparation of -the cartridge cases? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You have examined the cartridge cases previously. Are -they in the same condition now that they were when you received them in -the laboratory except for the cleaning of the lacquer? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; they are. - -Mr. EISENBERG. After receiving the cartridge cases, did you examine -them to determine whether they had been fired in Commission Exhibit 139? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When did you make the examinations? - -Mr. FRAZIER. On the dates I mentioned, that is, November 23, 1963, and -November 27, 1963. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And what were your conclusions, Mr. Frazier? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I found all three of the cartridge cases had been fired in -this particular weapon. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe the examination which you conducted to -reach these conclusions? - -Mr. FRAZIER. The first step was to fire test cartridge cases in this -rifle to pick up the microscopic marks which are left on all cartridge -cases fired in this weapon by the face of the bolt. Then those test -cartridge cases were mounted on a comparison microscope, on the -right-hand side, and on the left-hand side of the comparison microscope -was mounted one of the three submitted cartridge cases, so that you -could magnify the surfaces of the test and the evidence and compare the -marks left on the cartridge cases by the bolt face and the firing pin -of the rifle. - -(At this point, Mr. McCloy left the hearing room.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. I now hand you two cartridge cases, and ask you whether -you can identify these cartridge cases? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; these are the two cartridge cases we fired for -test purposes in Exhibit 139. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do they have your mark on them? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, they do. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Commissioner Boggs, may I introduce these as 557? - -Representative BOGGS. They may be admitted. - -(The items referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 557 for -identification and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. These were the only two cartridge cases fired as tests -in Exhibit 139--as tests for the purpose of identification of the -cartridge cases which you examined before, 543, 544, and 545? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; these two were used in those tests. There were -many other cartridge cases fired, but not for that purpose. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain how you are able to come to a conclusion -that a cartridge case was fired in a particular weapon to the exclusion -of all other weapons? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; during the manufacture of a weapon, there are -certain things done to the mechanism of it, which are by machine or -by filing, by grinding, which form the parts of the weapon into their -final shape. These machining and grinding and filing operations will -mark the metal with very fine scratches or turning marks and grinding -marks in such a way that there will be developed on the surface of the -metal a characteristic pattern. This pattern, because it is made by -these accidental machine-type operations, will be characteristic of -that particular weapon, and will not be reproduced on separate weapons. -It may be a combination of marks that--the face of the bolt may be -milled, then it may be in part filed to smooth off the corners, and -then, as a final operation, it may be polished, or otherwise adjusted -during the hand fitting operation, so that it does have its particular -pattern of microscopic marks. - -The bolt face of the 139 rifle I have photographed and enlarged in this -photograph to show the types of marks I was referring to. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You took this photograph yourself, and it is a -photograph of the bolt face of the 139 rifle? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this introduced as 558? - -Representative BOGGS. It may be admitted. - -(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 558, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. What is the magnification of this bolt-face photograph? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Approximately 11 diameters. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you slip out the bolt of the rifle so we could see -how it compares, and show us the part of the bolt which is photographed? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Orienting the photograph with the writing at the bottom, -orients the bolt also, as it comes out of the rifle--with the slot -shown as a groove on the bottom of the bolt. Then the extractor on -the bolt, is the area shown at the left side of the photograph, as you -view it--the actual bolt face itself is inset into the bolt below the -surface of the extractor, and a supporting shoulder around it, and in -the center, of course, is the firing-pin hole and the firing pin. - -The marks produced during manufacture are the marks seen on the bolt -face; filing marks, machining marks of the various types, even forging -marks or casting marks if the bolt happens to be forged or cast. And -then variations which occur in these marks during the life of the -weapon are very important in identification, because many of the -machining marks can be flattened out, can be changed, by merely a grain -of sand between the face of the cartridge case and the bolt at the time -a shot is fired, which will itself scratch and dent the bolt face. So -the bolt face will pick up a characteristic pattern of marks which are -peculiar to it. - -The same is true of extractors and ejectors. They are in turn machined -and will have a pattern of marks or scratches on their surfaces which -will mark cartridge cases in the same manner each time. - -The comparison we made was of the marks appearing in this photograph, -558, in fairly close proximity to the firing pin hole, since that is -the area that the primer in the head of the cartridge case comes in -contact with. - -The primer in a cartridge case normally takes marks more readily -than the surrounding brass portion of the cartridge case, which is a -considerably harder metal and is not impressed with these marks as -readily. - -The three cartridge cases, 553, 554, and 555, were compared---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is that 543, 544, and 545? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I am sorry--yes, 543, 544, and 545. These three cartridge -cases were placed one at a time on the comparison microscope, and the -surfaces having the breech-face marks or the bolt marks were compared -with those on the test cartridge cases, Exhibit 557. As a result of -comparing the pattern of microscopic markings on the test cartridge -cases and those marks on Exhibits 543, 544, and 545, both of the face -of the bolt and the firing pin, I concluded that these three had been -fired in this particular weapon. - -Representative BOGGS. Who manufactured these cartridges? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Western Cartridge Co., East Alton, Ill. - -Representative BOGGS. They manufacture cartridges and bullets for all -manner of rifles? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, they do. - -Representative BOGGS. This is not--this rifle is not common in the -United States, is it? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It is fairly common now, but at the time it was -manufactured or used primarily it was not. It was imported into this -country as surplus military equipment, and has been advertised quite -widely. - -Representative BOGGS. These three cartridge--these three shells that -you had were the same as the live ones that were found there, were they -not? - -Mr. FRAZIER. There was one live cartridge found. They are identical. - -Representative BOGGS. And the live one was manufactured also by---- - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, the Western Cartridge Co. It bears the head stamp -"WCO" and "6.5. mm." - -Representative BOGGS. These are not difficult to obtain? You can buy -them anywhere? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, you can buy them from mail-order houses primarily, -or a few gun shops that have accumulated a supply by ordering them. The -information we have is that two million rounds were imported into the -United States in one lot, one shipment--and they have been transmitted -over the country and are for sale by several different surplus gun -shops--used guns--mail-order houses and places of that nature--and -gunsmiths, and firearms shops sell this ammunition. - -Representative BOGGS. Go ahead. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, what is the basis of the statement you made -earlier that no two bolt faces would be the same? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Because the marks which are placed on any bolt face are -accidental in nature. That is, they are not placed there intentionally -in the first place. They are residual to some machining operation, -such as a milling machine, in which each cutter of the milling tool -cuts away a portion of the metal; then the next tooth comes along and -cuts away a little more, and so on, until the final surface bears the -combination of the various teeth of the milling cutter. In following -that operation, then, the surface is additionally scratched--until -you have numerous--we call them microscopic characteristics, a -characteristic being a mark which is peculiar to a certain place on -the bolt face, and of a certain shape, it is of a certain size, it has -a certain contour, it may be just a little dimple in the metal, or a -spot of rust at one time on the face of the bolt, or have occurred from -some accidental means such as dropping the bolt, or repeated use having -flattened or smoothed off the surface of the metal. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Why doesn't a series of the same machines, or repeated -use of the same machines, cause the same results, apart from future -accidental markings? - -Mr. FRAZIER. In some instances a certain type of cutter will duplicate -a certain pattern of marks. In general you will find for a milling -cutter a circular mark. And you may find the same pattern of circles. -But that milling cutter does not actually cut the steel; it tears it -out, it chips it out, and the surface of the metal then is rough--even -though the circle is there, the circle is not a smooth circle, but it -is a result of tearing out the metal, and you will have a very rough -surface. When magnified sufficiently, you can detect the difference -even between two similarly milled surfaces because of the minor -variations in the cutting operation. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you had occasion to examine such similarly-milled -surfaces? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes; many times. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would you go into detail on that? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, part of my work in the laboratory is dealing -with tool-marks of all types, from drills, mills, files, cutting -instruments, and so on. And when you are dealing with filing marks -or milling marks and so on, it is sometimes possible to identify a -particular mill as having made a certain mark on the basis of the -grinding marks on that particular mill. But such as a case like this, -where the cutting marks have now been altered through use of the weapon -and corrosion, or in wear or in filing, some of the original marks -are removed, and other marks are in their place, until eventually you -reach a condition where that bolt face will be entirely different from -any other bolt face. It is a matter actually--when you get down to the -basis of it, it is a matter of a mathematical impossibility in the -realm of human experience for any two things to ever be exactly alike. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is because the original markings will not be -exactly alike, and then you have added accidental markings on top of -the original ones? - -Mr. FRAZIER. That is right; yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Returning for a moment to the original markings, as -I understand it, you have worked with the tools themselves and the -impressions the tools themselves leave, as opposed to a tooled surface, -such as this. - -Mr. FRAZIER. I have worked with both. In other words, in comparing -tool-marks, you examine not only the tool, but the marks they produce. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And in working with these tools, as I understand your -testimony, you have found that the markings which a tool leaves, which -the same tool leaves, will be distinctive. - -Mr. FRAZIER. That is true, yes. When it is a scrape or an impression -from its surface, or something of that nature, it can be very readily -identified. But if it is a drill or something of that nature, where you -have a tearing operation, then it is not readily identified, but it -occasionally can be identified. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Well, how many such examinations do you think you have -made? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Thousands of them. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you noticed whether the marks left by a given -tool--that you have examined--change over the course of the use of the -tool? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, they change very rapidly when a tool is used to cut a -hard object. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you elaborate on what you mean by "very rapidly"? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, for instance, when using a pry bar, for example, -one insertion of a pry bar into the hard insulation of a safe, with -pressure applied to it can change the entire blade of the tool to the -extent that you could not identify a succession of marks, because of -the abrasion by the insulation. But that same tool, used to mark a soft -steel or brass or copper, could make mark after mark without changing, -or only a small portion of it may change with each impression. Or it -may gradually change over a period of time. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, is the metal in the bolt face a hard metal or a -soft metal? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I would say it was hard metal---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. Well---- - -Mr. FRAZIER. With reference to copper or other softer metals--it is a -steel. I could not say how hard it actually is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What will the effect of the metal used in the bolt face -be upon the tool which is used to finish it off, cut it and finish it -off? - -Mr. FRAZIER. The tool will gradually wear out. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Well, will the tool leave different marks on the end of -the bolt face from one bolt to the very next bolt face? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes; that very often happens. The tool is worn out or -the small cuttings get underneath the edge, between the tool, and nick -the edge of the tool, so that the tool will gradually change over a -period of time. The cutting edge--the amount of change depends upon the -amount of wear, the heat involved, and the hardness of the metal--the -relative hardness of the metal. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Will that particular change be noticed invariably in two -consecutive bolt faces? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So what is the genesis of the difference in the two -consecutive bolt faces as they come from the manufacturer? - -Mr. FRAZIER. The change, as I said, depends on the bolt you are using. -It does not always take place, because some bolts are made of a very -soft metal, and they will not necessarily change a machining tool to -that extent. - -Mr. EISENBERG. But the markings, you said, would be different on two -consecutive bolt faces? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And if the tool is not changed, what is the origin of -the difference between the markings? - -Mr. FRAZIER. There are other accidental markings placed there during -the machining operation. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you describe that? - -Mr. FRAZIER. For instance, as the blade of a milling machine travels -around a surface, it takes off actually a dust--it is not actually a -piece of metal--it scrapes a little steel off in the form of a dust--or -a very fine powder or chip--that tooth leaves a certain pattern of -marks--that edge. That milling cutter may have a dozen of these edges -on its surface, and each one takes a little more. Gradually you wear -the metal down, you tear it out actually until you are at the proper -depth. Those little pieces of metal, as they are traveling around, can -also scratch the face of the bolt--unless they are washed away. So that -you may have accidental marks from that source, just in the machining -operation. - -Now, there are two types of marks produced in a cutting operation. One, -from the nicks along the cutting edge of the tool, which are produced -by a circular operating tool--which produce very fine scratches in -a circular pattern. Each time the tool goes around, it erases those -marks that were there before. And when the tool is finally lifted out, -you have a series of marks which go around the surface which has been -machined, and you will find that that pattern of marks, as this tool -goes around, will change. In one area, it will be one set of marks--and -as you visually examine the surface of the metal, these very fine -marks will extend for a short distance, then disappear, and a new mark -of a new type will begin and extend for a short distance. The entire -surface, then, will have a--be composed of a series of circles, but the -individual marks seen in the microscope will not be circular, will not -form complete circles around the face of the bolt. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you had occasion to examine two consecutive bolt -faces from a factory? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And what did you find on that examination? - -Mr. FRAZIER. There would be no similarity in the individual microscopic -characteristics between the two bolt faces. - -Mr. EISENBERG. There actually was none? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, there was none. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In the bolt face with which we are dealing, Exhibit 139, -can you say from inspection whether the markings on that bolt face -are predominantly the accidental markings introduced subsequent to -manufacture, or the markings of the manufacture? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I would say that these were filing marks for the most part -which were made during manufacture, some of which have been obliterated -and changed through use--possibly corrosion. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, taking Exhibit 543, did you prepare a -photograph of this exhibit---- - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Compared with the test cartridge case? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; this is the photograph, showing the test -cartridge case from Exhibit 557 on the right and the cartridge case 543 -on the left. - -Mr. EISENBERG. This was prepared by you or under your supervision? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman? - -Representative BOGGS. It may be admitted. - -(The item referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 559 and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, that is marked on the left C-14, and on the right, -C-6. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And the left-hand photograph is a photograph of what? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Of the cartridge case 543. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is the actual fired case? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it shows just a portion of the primer, and a -very small portion of the firing-pin impression. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And the right-hand side of that photograph, marked C-6? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It is a test cartridge case, fired in the rifle Exhibit -139. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What is the magnification, Mr. Frazier? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Approximately 100 diameters. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And is that magnification equal on both sides of the -picture? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you make your identification of Exhibit 543, that is -the identification of that exhibit as having been fired in the rifle -139, on the basis of your examination under the microscope, or on the -basis of the photograph? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Under the microscope. The photograph has no relationship -whatsoever to the examination. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain that? - -Mr. FRAZIER. The examination is made microscopically through the -use of your eyes, and your eyes will record depths and shapes to -a much greater extent than can be shown in a photograph. So that -the examination and comparison is made of these irregular surfaces -mentally, rather than mechanically by any means. The photograph is -taken primarily to illustrate the types of marks found and their -location, relatively, on the specimen. - -Representative BOGGS. We will have to adjourn and come back at 2. - -(Whereupon, at 12:15 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -Afternoon Session - -TESTIMONY OF ROBERT A. FRAZIER RESUMED - - -The President's Commission reconvened at 2:10 p.m. - -Mr. McCLOY. You are still under oath, you know. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I would like to begin by clearing up a few items which -have been covered or left open during the morning session. - -First, you were going to supply us with certain figures concerning the -times which were taken by two of the Agents to fire three shots in the -first series of tests which were made for determining the accuracy of -the firing under rapid-fire conditions. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; that was at two targets. The first one I -gave you--Killion fired in 9 seconds. The other was a target marked -Cunningham and Frazier. Cunningham fired his three shots in 8 seconds -and I fired my three shots in 5.9 seconds. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now also you had made certain calculations concerning -what we have been calling the lead that had to be given to a target, -assuming various factors which were supplied to you. Do you have those -calculations now? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; the lead would amount to shooting over the -target at 175 feet, a distance of 6.7 inches, and the decimal on that -figure is not an accurate decimal because this figure relates to an -average velocity of ammunition of this type, and is concerned with a -speed of a vehicle which is also estimated, and a distance which may or -may not be exactly accurate. - -But at a ground speed of 11 miles an hour, it would be necessary to -shoot over or lead a target 6.7 inches for the bullet to hit the -intended spot on the target. At 265 feet the lead would be .51 feet, or -6.1 inches. - -I might say that the variation, that of less lead at the longer -distance, is in great part due to the fact that the target is farther -away and that the shot is more nearly in line with the direction in -which the target is moving, which would account for much of the drop in -the amount of lead. - -And, in addition, I calculated this on the basis of the fact that there -was a slight slope between the 175-foot and the 265-foot location -downwards away from the shooter, which would also tend to more nearly -cause the target to be moving in the same path as the bullet. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And did you convert those lead distances into the amount -of inches which the shooter would have to sight above the head, above -the point of the target? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Those figures I gave were the elevations or the sighting -distances above the target. The 6.7 inches vertical lead or sighting -over the target is the equivalent of leading on the ground of 1.4 feet. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And that table also shows leads at other car speeds? - -Mr. FRAZIER. This table--I could calculate them--it only shows miles -per hour translated into feet per second. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I mean, does it show various miles per hour? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it shows miles per hour in feet per second. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Without going into detail at this time, may I have -permission to introduce this table into evidence? - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. - -Mr. EISENBERG. This will be Commission Exhibit 560. - -(The item identified as Commission Exhibit No. 560 was received in -evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Frazier, in the construction of this table -and also in your last tests for rapid fire for this rifle, you used a -five-and-a-half second figure as a factor in your calculations, and in -your attempt at rapid fire accuracy placements. Can you give us the -source of that figure? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. You were the source of it, based on examination, -as I understood it, of a movie taken at the scene, and measurements -taken at the scene. However, I have no knowledge of the actual time. - -Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, I just wanted to establish that this is -a source that was supplied by the Commission and which is tentative, -and it is not to imply any final conclusion on the part of the FBI; is -that correct? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I hope it is taken that way, because we don't know what -the time actually was. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Another point then, which should have been covered this -morning, Mr. Frazier, in your qualifications: have you testified before -in court? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you estimate the number of times? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Approximately 400 times. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Finally, we had discussed briefly your examination -of consecutively manufactured bolt faces to see whether any two -such consecutively manufactured bolt faces were identical in their -microscopic characteristics. How many such examinations have you -performed. - -Mr. FRAZIER. I would say about four examinations of pairs of bolt faces -which have been consecutively manufactured. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And in each case the result was what? - -Mr. FRAZIER. The marks on one bolt face in no way resembled the marks -on the other bolt face. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, we were just beginning to discuss, -before the recess, Commission Exhibit 559, which is a picture, as -you described it, of Exhibit No. 543 and a test cartridge under a -microscope, and that is also known as C-6 and C-14, is that right? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you discuss, by using that picture, some of the -markings which you have seen under the microscope and on the basis of -which you made your identification? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. In the photograph I have drawn some small -circles and numbered them, those circles, correspondingly on each side -of the photograph. The purpose of the circles is not to point out all -the similarities, but to call attention to some of them and to help -orient in locating a mark on one with a mark on the opposite side of -the photograph. In general the area shown is immediately outside of -the firing pin in the bolt of the 139 rifle, on the left side of the -photograph, and Commission Exhibit 543 on the right side. - -The circles have been drawn around the dents or irregularly shaped -ridges, small bumps, and depressions on the surface of the metal in six -places on each side of the photograph. It is an examination of these -marks, and all of the marks on the face of the breech, microscopically -which permits a conclusion to be reached. The photograph itself -actually is a substitute to show only the type of marks found rather -than their nature, that is, their height, their width, or their -relationship to each other, which is actually a mental, visual, -comparison on the two specimens themselves. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Referring for a second to this mental, visual, -comparison, Mr. Frazier, would a person without firearms -training--firearms-identification training--be able to look under a -microscope and make a determination for himself concerning whether a -given cartridge case had been fired in a given weapon? - -Mr. FRAZIER. In that connection that person could look through the -microscope. He may or may not see these individual characteristics -which are present, because he does not know what to look for in the -first place, and, secondly, they are of such a nature that you have -to mentally sort them out in your mind going back and forth between -one area and the other until you form a mental picture of them in a -comparison such as this. - -If it was a different type of comparison, of parallel marks or -something of that nature, then he could see the marks, but in either -instance, without having compared hundreds and hundreds of specimens, -he would not be able to make any statement as to whether or not they -were fired from the same rifle. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would you say that this is, then, a matter of expert -interpretation rather than a point-for-point comparison which a layman -could make? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I would say so; yes. I don't think a layman would -recognize some of the things on these cartridge cases and some shown -in the photographs as actually being significant or not significant, -because there will be things present which have nothing whatsoever to -do with the firing of the cartridge case in the gun. - -There may be a depression in the primer to begin with, and there are no -marks registered at that point as a result of the firing. Unless these -things are known to occur, someone may actually arrive at a different -conclusion, because of the absence of similar marks. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now having reference to the specific exhibit before you, -which is 559---- - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Are all the marks shown in both photographs identical? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And could you go into detail on a mark which is not -identical to explain why you would get such a result? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, for instance, between what I have drawn here as -circle 4 and circle 5, there is a slanting line from the upper left -to the lower right on C-6. This line shows as a white line in the -photograph. - -On the other side there is a rough, very rough ridge which runs through -there, having an entirely different appearance from the relatively -sharp line on C-6. The significant part of that mark is the groove in -between, rather than the sharp edge of the mark, because the sharp -corner could be affected by the hardness of the metal or the irregular -surface of the primer and the amount of pressure exerted against -it, pressing it back against the face of the bolt, at the time the -cartridges were fired. So that you would never expect all the marks -on one cartridge case to be identical with all the marks on the other -cartridge case. - -In fact, you would expect many differences. But the comparison is made -on the overall pattern, contour, and nature of the marks that are -present. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Back on the record. - -Mr. Frazier, could you discuss or characterize those points which you -have circled on Commission Exhibit 559, starting from the top? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Number 1 circle is drawn around a depression in the metal -of irregular shape. I might say that number 1 shows on the right side -of the photograph, and only half of it shows on the left side because -of the relative position of the two cartridge cases in the photograph. - -Number 2 is a circle drawn around a long line which extends obliquely -across each cartridge case from the upper left to the lower right. The -long line itself is a means of orienting the cartridge cases one with -the other, but the circle is drawn around a break in that line in the -form of a very small hump or an absence of metal which shows up as an -actual break in the long line. - -Number 3 again is a depression between two grooves, which is rather -similar in shape. I cannot tell you how deep it is because the -photograph only shows two dimensions. But on the cartridge cases it has -a very characteristic depth to it, which is readily apparent. - -It is formed by two parallel lines extending from the upper left to the -lower, towards the lower right, with the depression in between, and -again one side of the depression is formed by a small raised area in -the primer metal which is seen in each photograph as a conical, almost -a conical-shaped bump or raised area. - -Number 4 is another raised portion on the photograph. In connection -with 4, I would like to point out that a portion of this bump has -been erased from the test cartridge case on the left-hand side of the -photograph, the erasure caused by the turning of the bolt of the weapon -while being pressed against the primer, which has smoothed off some of -the protruding rough areas on the primer. - -Number 5 is a horizontal ridge which has two depressions, one on the -top and one on the bottom, shown on both sides of the photograph, and -number 6 is a wishbone type of ridge, a wide ridge which divides into -two smaller ridges on the left-hand edge, and in the middle of the -dividing lines, the forked lines, is a small dent or raised portion. -Those six which I have marked are only portions of those shown in the -photograph, and of course the photograph does not show the entire -surface of the primer. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Were you able to find identifying marks on the brass as -well as the primer on this cartridge case? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No; I did not notice any marks on the brass portions -outside of the primer. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is that typical of cartridge-case identification? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Generally that is true, unless there is a great pressure, -unless the brass of the cartridge case is soft, or unless the marks are -very sharp on the breech face; then they will be impressed into the -brass. - -Mr. EISENBERG. This picture represents only a portion of the primer. -You examined the entire primer to make your identification? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And found? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It would not have been necessary to examine the entire -primer necessarily, but of course we do examine the entire primer, -pick out all of the marks on the left and the right, and rotate the -cartridge cases and look at them from various angles, before arriving -at a conclusion. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you amplify the meaning of the statement that it -would not be necessary to examine the entire primer? - -Mr. FRAZIER. There are sufficient marks shown in this photograph upon -which to base an identification. In other words, it would not be -necessary to have the rest of the primer if it had been mutilated or -destroyed or something of that nature. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you also examine the firing-pin impression in the -cartridge? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you take a picture of that examination? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. Here is the photograph of the firing-pin impression, -again on the left the rifle, and on the right the cartridge case, -Commission's 543. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That bears the number C-14 and C-6, corresponding to the -numbers on Commission Exhibit 559? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it does. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you take this photograph or have it taken under your -supervision? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What is the magnification of this photograph? - -Mr. FRAZIER. 90 diameters. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is it equal on both sides? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this admitted? - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That will be 561. - -(The item identified as Commission Exhibit No. 561 was received in -evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you proceed with the discussion of the circled -marks on this photograph, number 561? - -Mr. FRAZIER. In the case of firing-pin impressions which are shown on -Exhibit 561, the marks result from two related sources; excuse me, not -sources, but from two related causes, one being the force given to the -firing pin driving it into the primer to set off the cartridge, and -the second being the force of the powder charge inside the cartridge -being driven back--driving the primer back against the firing pin at -the same time, so that the metal of the primer is caused to flow or be -stamped by the firing pin and pressed against by the gases, so that any -irregularities in the firing pin will be impressed into the primer of -the cartridge case. - -Number 1 consists of a double horizontal line, one a fairly wide coarse -line at the top. Immediately under that approximately one-eighth of an -inch is a fairly fine horizontal line. - -Circled and marked number 2 is a very coarse, wide ridge, very short -in length, approximately one-half an inch, and an eighth to a quarter -of an inch in height. This ridge is formed by two grooves, a straight -groove across the top, and a curved or crescent-shaped groove across -the bottom. - -Number 3 is a circle drawn around two small raised areas in the primer -metal separated by a depression. - -Number 4 is a section from a large ridge across the metal of the -primer, which has a break in its surface in the lower portion of the -circle, and immediately above the break is a groove, and immediately -above that again is another ridge which is at a little steeper angle -upwards to the left. - -Number 5 is a depression, is a portion of a depression appearing at -the bottom of the circle with a very short ridge running horizontally -across the circle. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Again there are dissimilar marks on these two pictures, -Mr. Frazier? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; there are, for the same reason, that metal does not -flow the same in every instance, and it will not be impressed to the -same depth and to the same amount, depending on the type of metal, the -blow that is struck, and the pressures involved. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is your identification made therefore on the basis -of the presence of similarities, as opposed to the absence of -dissimilarities? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, that is not exactly right. The identification is made -on the presence of sufficient individual microscopic characteristics -so that a very definite pattern is formed and visualized on the two -surfaces. - -Dissimilarities may or may not be present, depending on whether there -have been changes to the firing pin through use or wear, whether the -metal flows are the same, and whether the pressures are the same or not. - -So I don't think we can say that it is an absence of dissimilarities, -but rather the presence of similarities. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Any further questions on this cartridge case? - -Mr. McCLOY. No. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, you have testified also that you identified -the cartridge case which is Exhibit 544 as having been fired from this -rifle, in this rifle, to the exclusion of all others. Did you take a -photograph of the comparison that you made under the microscope of -number 544? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. I again took two photographs, one of the breech-face -or bolt-face marks, and one of the firing-pin marks. - -Mr. EISENBERG. This exhibit which I am holding is a picture of the -breech-face marks? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And was that taken by you or under your supervision? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And the magnification here is what? - -Mr. FRAZIER. 90 diameters. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this admitted, Mr. Chairman? - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That will be number 562, Mr. Reporter. - -(The item described as Commission Exhibit No. 562 was received in -evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you discuss the markings on this picture, Mr. -Frazier? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. In Commission Exhibit 562, there is again the -vertical dividing line which is the top of the prism in the microscope -which divides your view. On the left hand side is a portion of the -primer and a portion of the head of the test cartridge case from -Exhibit 139. On the right side of the photograph is a portion of the -surface of the primer and a portion of the firing-pin impression of the -cartridge case, Commission Exhibit 544. - -To assist in pointing out on the photograph some of the areas where -individual microscopic characteristics are present, I have had circles -drawn, circling at the top, number 1, an oval-shaped depression in the -metal, having an irregularly shaped or wavy ridge across the bottom of -the circle. Immediately below that is another ridge which has a flat -top, and is more or less of a diamond shape. - -Number 3 circle is over a very coarse, wide ridge separated by two -fairly deep grooves on each side. - -Number 4 circle is over a conical-shaped raised portion on the primer -which represents a dent in the metal of the bolt face, and number 5 -again is a raised area on the primer which is a portion of a ridge. -In this instance this is more or less of a compound ridge which runs -horizontally with a small break in it pointing down toward the lower -left. - -Mr. McCLOY. Is that same break apparent in the left hand photograph? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it is. Looking very closely and right at the -hairline, you can see the break in the ridge where it forms more or -less of a =Y=. The actual connecting point is not present, but you can -see the portion of the ridge as it heads towards the horizontal ridge. -The hairline has separated that portion of it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would you call these marks strongly characteristic -marks, Mr. Frazier? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes; very characteristic. They are primarily -characteristic because of their irregular shape. If they had been -regular in shape, it wouldn't have meant nearly as much as it does to -have the irregular rough surfaces and contours of the marks. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I think you have identified the next picture I am -holding as having been taken by you? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was. That is a 70-diameter magnification -photograph of Exhibit 544 on the right, and the test from the rifle on -the left. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And this bears the numbers C-14 and C-7, and is a -firing-pin photograph? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May this firing-pin mark photograph be admitted, Mr. -Chairman? - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is 563. - -(The item was numbered 563, and was received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you review that photograph, Mr. Frazier? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. In Exhibit 563 the test cartridge case -representing the rifle is on the left side of the photograph, and shows -most of the firing-pin impression in that cartridge case. Five circles -have been drawn over towards the right-hand edge of the firing-pin -impression, and five similarly located circles have been drawn over the -area at the right-hand edge of the firing-pin impression of Exhibit 544. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Which is actually the left-hand side of the right-hand -part of the picture? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It would be--that is right; at the dividing line, the -circles on 544 are drawn close to the dividing line, which shows only a -very small portion of the firing pin of that cartridge case. - -Beginning with number 1, it has a gently sloping ridge running from -upper left toward lower right in each instance, with a break in the -ridge contour at the middle in the form of an extension upwards toward -the top of the photograph. - -In number 2 there is a circle drawn around the end of a very long line -in the left-hand side of the photograph. The circle is drawn to show a -=Y=-shaped break in this line located on both cartridge cases. - -Number 3 is a photograph of an irregular-shaped raised portion on the -firing-pin impression, which is very difficult to describe in words. - -Number 4 is a groove extending from upper right to lower left which -has a break in its lower side to allow a horizontal groove to come in -towards the main groove. The lower portion of that groove coming in -from the lower side is in the form of a crescent-shaped ridge, which -starts horizontally from the left and then falls off towards the lower -right-hand side of the photograph. - -The circle, number 5, is again a =Y=-shaped or wishbone-shaped ridge, -with a horizontal bar on the right, and then extending ridges upward -toward the left and downward to the left. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Again, are these firing-pin marks what you would call -strongly characteristic? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I would say so. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Does the firing pin give any evidence of having been -altered subsequent to the original manufacture? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; only in an accidental sort of way, that is, very -fine scratches which may have been caused by firing or dirt on a -cartridge or something which may have scratched the firing pin. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Are firing-pin marks usually as characteristic of a -given cartridge case as the primer marks? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I would say they are as characteristic. However, -they may not always be as evident, they may not be seen as readily. -However, they are just as characteristic. - -Mr. McCLOY. Just to repeat again, what is this side of this picture? -What does this represent? - -Mr. FRAZIER. That represents the rifle cartridge. - -Mr. McCLOY. The rifle cartridge itself? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. And this on the right? - -Mr. FRAZIER. This is one of the three cartridge cases recovered from -the building, Exhibit 544. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, you fired two test cartridges in the rifle, -is that correct? - -Mr. FRAZIER. We fired several test cartridge cases. These two are the -ones that were used in the comparisons. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you fire several for possible comparison purposes, -or only two for possible comparison purposes? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Those we fired were in the time-fire test and we retained -some of those for possible use in comparing, but it was not necessary -to use them, actually. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you use both of these test cartridge cases in the -photographs, or only one of them? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I could not tell by these photographs. We did not make any -distinction when we were comparing tests with the evidence as to which -test cartridge case we were using. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When you made your selection among cartridge cases to -select the items which would be used as test cases for comparison -purposes, were the items you rejected much different from those you -selected? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No. The marks were generally the same on all of them. -Those we used in this comparison were two tests which we fired on -November 23d and used them in our tests--made our examination, our -identification. - -Later on we fired accuracy tests and speed tests and retained some of -those cartridge cases, but they were not necessarily retained for test -purposes, for identification of the weapon, but merely as a result of -the other tests that were made. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you just as easily have used other of the items -from your original November twenty---- - -Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes; yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Getting to the last cartridge case, Exhibit 545, did you -take a photograph of the exhibit together with the test case under the -microscope after making your identification? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I did. This photograph shows that cartridge case 545 -on the right, and the test cartridge case from the rifle, 139, on the -left. - -Mr. EISENBERG. This is marked on the right C-38 and on the left C-14? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Again this is a photograph taken by you or under your -supervision? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And that is of the primer? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And you have a second photograph here also, marked C-14 -and C-38, also taken by you or under your supervision? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And this is of the markings of the firing pin? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you give us the magnification first of the -primer-markings photograph? - -Mr. FRAZIER. That is 100 diameters enlargement on the primer, and on -the firing-pin it is 80 diameters. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now in all the cases of the photographs you have given -us, the magnifications are equal on both sides, are they? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; they are. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have these admitted into evidence? - -Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted. - -Mr. EISENBERG. They will be 564 and 565. - -(The items, identified as Commission Exhibits Nos. 564 and 565, were -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you discuss the photograph, Exhibit 564 please, -Mr. Frazier? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Exhibit 564 is again, a portion of the primer of the -cartridge case fired by me in the rifle number 139 appearing on the -left side of the vertical dividing line through the center of the -photograph, and on the right side a portion of the surface of the -cartridge case, Exhibit 545, showing its primer and the marks on it. - -In the photograph four circles, or portions of circles, have been -drawn, circling some of the areas where individual microscopic -characteristics are found which permitted identifying the two cartridge -cases as having been fired in the same weapon. - -In the upper circle are again two ridges separated by a groove, the -lower right-hand end of which is blocked by a raised portion in the -metal of the primer. - -Circle number 2 is again a depression bounded on the top by a long -sloping groove, sloping from the upper left subsequently to the lower -right. - -In circle number 3 there is a series of ridges running horizontally -across the photograph. The lowest of these three ridges is a rather -wide round-topped ridge. - -Circle number 4 shows the left-hand side of a figure which you could -roughly call a Z in the primer, which consists of a horizontal or -nearly horizontal line running from left to right which meets a second -line running from right down to the left, which again meets a third -line which runs from the left to the right. This is shown in both -photographs as the three lines which form the shape of a Z on the -primer. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, on this photograph there is shown a mark -at approximately 3 o'clock on the left-hand side of the picture, and -9 o'clock on the right-hand side, and the marks seem to be different -in the two pictures, being broader on the left-hand, C-14, than on the -right, C-38. Could you explain the genesis of the difference? It seems -to extend further down. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Approximately in the center of the photograph where the -two images meet, there is a scraped area which is the result of the -surface of the metal of the bolt scraping the surface of the primer as -the bolt was turned in opening the bolt to extract the cartridge. - -On the test cartridge case, this area is much broader and coarser -because the bolt was pressing more tightly against the primer when it -was turned. On the evidence cartridge case, the marks are relatively -fine, separated, and even show portions of the surface of the primer -in between the circular marks left by the rotating bolt. The reason is -that this primer was not being pressed as tightly against the bolt at -the time it was turned. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would that be due to differences in the construction of -the cartridge--the two cartridges? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It could be differences in the cartridge, but primarily it -would be a difference in the amount of setback of the cartridge against -the bolt at the time it was fired. - -If a cartridge is slightly away from the bolt when it is fired, the -primer is blown back out of the cartridge. As the pressure builds up, -the cartridge then moves back and reseats the primer in the primer -pocket. The manner in which that movement of the primer out and back in -is accomplished determines how tightly the primer will bear against the -face of the breach after the cartridge has been fired. - -It could be that, and it could be just a slight difference in the -hardness of the metal of the primer which caused this one to flow back -more and be marked more. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you discuss Exhibit No. 565? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; in Commission Exhibit No. 565 is shown the -firing-pin impressions of the test cartridge case from the 139 rifle -on the left and the cartridge case, 545, on the right, with a dividing -line through the middle separating the primer of one cartridge case -from the primer of the other. - -No circles have been drawn around this photograph because the marks -shown are marks of an abraded area on the firing pin, and are more or -less parallel and formed parallel patterns, so that the eye can follow -from one line across to the opposite side of the photograph. - -In this area shown of the firing pin of the weapon, there was a small -scraped area which left these microscopic ridges and grooves shown -on the left photograph, and also reproduced in the 545 primer or -firing-pin impression on the right side of the photograph. - -Mr. McCLOY. State for me again what is on the left side? What is this -C-14? - -Mr. FRAZIER. This is the rifle cartridge case, the test cartridge case. - -Mr. McCLOY. The test rifle? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; the cartridge case which I fired in 139. - -Mr. McCLOY. In 139. And the one on the right? - -Mr. FRAZIER. This the cartridge case from the building, Exhibit 545. - -Mr. McCLOY. Which was found in the building? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Found in the building. - -Mr. McCLOY. On all of these on the left is it always the same---- - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; on all of the photographs we have discussed so -far. - -Mr. McCLOY. I just wanted to make that clear. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, it appears to the eye that only a portion -of this is in focus. Is that correct? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Only a portion of the entire photograph is in focus, yes, -and that is the area where these individual marks appear, occur. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; the reason being the outer area, the area up to -the edge of the firing-pin impression is considerably higher, and the -microscope does not have the depth of focus to focus on a very deep -groove or depression such as the firing pin at the bottom of it and -still maintain the top in focus. - -The firing pin is circular, I should say, hemispherical in shape, so -that it leaves a cup-shaped impression of it--only one portion of it -can be in focus at the same time; the other part being either higher or -lower will be out of focus. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, I now hand you Commission Exhibit 399, -which, for the record, is a bullet, and also for the record, it is -a bullet which was found in the Parkland Hospital following the -assassination. Are you familiar with this exhibit? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. This is a bullet which was delivered to me in -the FBI laboratory on November 22, 1963 by Special Agent Elmer Todd of -the FBI Washington Field Office. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Does that have your mark on it? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it does. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The bullet is in the same condition as it was when you -received it? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; except for the marking of my initials and the -other examiners. There is a discoloration at the nose caused apparently -by mounting this bullet in some material which stained it, which was -not present when received, and one more thing on the nose is a small -dent or scraped area. At this area the spectographic examiner removed a -small quantity of metal for analysis. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you prepare the bullet in any way for examination? -That is, did you clean it or in any way alter it? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it was not necessary. The bullet was clean and it -was not necessary to change it in any way. - -Mr. EISENBERG. There was no blood or similar material on the bullet -when you received it? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Not any which would interfere with the examination, no, -sir. Now there may have been slight traces which could have been -removed just in ordinary handling, but it wasn't necessary to actually -clean blood or tissue off of the bullet. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you examine this exhibit to determine whether it had -been fired in Exhibit 139? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And what was your conclusion? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It was. Exhibit 399 was fired in the rifle 139. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is to the exclusion of all other rifles? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe the types of markings which are -generated onto a bullet, as opposed to those which are generated onto a -cartridge case? - -Mr. FRAZIER. A bullet when it is fired picks up the marks of the barrel -of the weapon. These marks consist of rifling marks of the lands and -the grooves, the spiral grooves in the barrel, and, in addition, the -abrasion marks or rubbing marks which the bullet picks up due to the -friction between the barrel and the surface of the copper jacket on the -bullet, or if it is a lead bullet, with the lead. - -Mr. McCLOY. You said the marks of the groove. You mean the marks of the -groove or the marks of the lands? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Both, sir; both are present. In this barrel there are -four lands and four grooves. Each of the raised portions in the barrel -will be impressed into the surface of the bullet causing four--we call -them land impressions--on the bullet, and, in between, four groove -impressions. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How are you able to conclude that a given bullet was -fired in a given weapon to the exclusion of all other weapons, Mr. -Frazier? - -Mr. FRAZIER. That is based again upon the microscopic marks left on the -fired bullets and those marks in turn are based upon the barrel from -which the bullets are fired. - -The marks in the barrel originate during manufacture. They originate -through use of the gun, through accidental marks resulting from -cleaning, excessive cleaning, of the weapon, or faulty cleaning. - -They result from corrosion in the barrel due to the hot gases and -possibly corrosive primer mixtures in the cartridges used, and -primarily again they result from wear, that is an eroding of the barrel -through friction due to the firing of cartridges, bullets through it. - -In this particular barrel the manufacturer's marks are caused by the -drill which drills out the barrel, leaving certain marks from the -drilling tool. Then portions of these marks are erased by a rifling -tool which cuts the four spiral grooves in the barrel and, in turn, -leaves marks themselves, and in connection with those marks of course, -the drilling marks, being circular in shape, there is a tearing away of -the surface of the metal, so that a microscopically rough surface is -left. - -Then removing part of those marks with a separate tool causes that -barrel to assume an individual characteristic, a character all of its -own. - -In other words, at that time you could identify a bullet fired from -that barrel as having been fired from the barrel to the exclusion of -all other barrels, because there is no system whatever to the drilling -of the barrel. The only system is in the rifling or in the cutting -of the grooves, and in this case of rifle barrels, even the cutters -wear down as the barrels are made, eventually of course having to be -discarded or re-sharpened. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you examined consecutively manufactured barrels to -determine whether their microscopic characteristics are identical? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I have three different sets of, you might say, -paired barrels, which have been manufactured on the same machine, one -after the other, under controlled conditions to make them as nearly -alike as possible, and in each case fired bullets from those barrels -could not be identified with each other; in fact, they looked nothing -at all alike as far as individual microscopic characteristics are -concerned. Their rifling impressions of course would be identical, but -the individual marks there would be entirely different. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, did you determine the weight of the -exhibit--that is, 399? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Exhibit 399 weighs 158.6 grains. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How much weight loss does that show from the original -bullet weight? - -Mr. FRAZIER. We measured several standard bullets, and their weights -varied, which is a normal situation, a portion of a grain, or two -grains, from 161 grains--that is, they were all in the vicinity of 161 -grains. One weighed--160.85, 161.5, 161.1 grains. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In your opinion, was there any weight loss? - -Mr. FRAZIER. There did not necessarily have to be any weight loss to -the bullet. There may be a slight amount of lead missing from the -base of the bullet, since it is exposed at the base, and the bullet -is slightly flattened; there could be a slight weight loss from the -end of the bullet, but it would not amount to more than 4 grains, -because 158.6 is only a grain and a half less than the normal weight, -and at least a 2 grain variation would be allowed. So it would be -approximately 3 or 4 grains. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Were the markings on the bullet at all defaced? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; they were, in that the bullet is distorted by having -been slightly flattened or twisted. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How material would you call that defacement? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It is hardly visible unless you look at the base of the -bullet and notice it is not round. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How far does it affect your examination for purposes of -identification? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It had no effect on it at all. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain why? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Because it did not mutilate or distort the original -microscopic marks beyond the point where you could recognize the -pattern and find the same pattern of marks on one bullet as were -present on the other. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you take a photograph of your comparison of Exhibit -399 with a test bullet? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. This photograph was prepared by you or under your -supervision? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you tell us the magnification? - -Mr. FRAZIER. 70 diameters. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And this reads C-14 on the left and C-l on the right? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it does. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have that admitted? - -Mr. McCLOY. The one on the right is the cartridge that you just---- - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. 399, yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. 399? - -Mr. FRAZIER. And the one on the left is the test bullet. - -Mr. McCLOY. The test. It may be admitted. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That will be 566, Mr. Reporter. - -(The item so described was identified as Commission Exhibit No. 566 and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, could you discuss photograph 566? - -Mr. FRAZIER. This exhibit shows on the left side of a dividing vertical -line representing the top of the prism in the microscope which was used -for the comparison, a portion of the surface from the test bullet from -the rifle, 139, and on the right side of the photograph a portion of -the surface of the bullet, 399. - -The marks shown in the photograph are on an area representing -approximately one-half of one groove impression in the barrel of the -weapon, which extends from approximately 2 inches up from the bottom -of the photograph, being the edge of one land impression, and the -beginning of a groove impression, up to the top of the photograph, that -area being approximately one-half or possibly two-thirds of a groove -impression. - -The microscopic marks which were used in the identification, after -being observed through the microscope and making the comparison and -the identification, were photographed, and this photograph shows a -portion of the surface of that bullet, showing parallel lines extending -from the left side of the photograph coming up to the hairline -and continuing across on the right side of the photograph, these -microscopic marks being very fine grooves and ridges on the surface -of the bullet, very coarse ridges on the surface of the bullet, and -inbetween size scratches left on the bullet by the barrel of the weapon. - -There will be some marks which will not show up on one bullet which -show up on the other bullet, and similarly some marks on the other -bullet, in this case Exhibit 399, will not be present on the test -bullet, that stiuation being due to a number of causes. - -One, the bullets could have originally been slightly different in -diameter, the larger bullet, of course, picking up more marks during -its passage through the barrel. - -Secondly, the two bullets may not have expanded exactly the same, due -to the pressure of the powder behind them as they passed through the -barrel. - -Third, with each bullet fired through the barrel, there are certain -changes that occur due to the wearing away of the surface of the metal -of the barrel, so that after a series of shots through a particular -barrel, it would be expected that the pattern of microscopic marks -produced by it would change. - -The identification is based on areas such as this on the bullet and the -comparison of the microscopic marks around the entire surface of the -bullet which bears individual characteristics. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, running through the middle of the exhibit -there seem to be finer lines on the right-hand side than on the left. -Could you explain that, the reason why the lines come out with more -detail or that there are more lines on the right side than on the left? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Those marks could be the result of the bullet striking -some object after it was fired, or they could be the result of changes -having taken place in the barrel. - -For instance, even a piece of coarse cloth, leather or some other -object could have polished the surface of the metal slightly and left -infinitesimal scratches which, when enlarged sufficiently, actually -look like marks on the bullet. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In making your examination of the bullet, what was the -relative attention you gave to the broader lines we see in this picture -and the finer lines such as those we have just been referring to? - -Mr. FRAZIER. The broader lines would be more characteristic or they -are looked for most, because they change less rapidly than the fine -lines. For instance, firing two or three bullets through a barrel could -completely erase microscopic marks which would appear as fine lines in -a certain area, whereas the coarser lines and grooves on the bullet -would be maintained over a series of fired bullets. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In evaluating these lines, do you examine the lines -individually, or are you interested in their relationship with one -another in addition? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It is a combination. You actually examine each mark and -each line individually, but it is a mental process rather than a matter -of adding one line to another. It is a process of looking at a series -of lines and you actually notice that they are composed of round-topped -ridges, =V=-topped ridges, flat-topped ridges, and it is a mental -process of looking at the whole pattern rather than the individual -marks. - -Mr. EISENBERG. All these lines that we are looking at lie within a -groove, within one groove, did you say? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; except for the lower portion of the photograph, -there is a portion of a land impression showing one rather deep groove -running across the bottom of the picture, and a series of grooves shown -next to the edge of the land impression. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Will you identify the circular-looking mark on the -right-hand side of the picture? - -Mr. FRAZIER. That could be either a flaw in the bullet, the metal -itself, before it was fired, or could be the result of the bullet -having struck some object after it was fired and before it stopped, or -as it stopped, or could be the result of having been dropped or roughly -handled. - -This particular mark there would be invisible practically speaking to -the naked eye when looking at the bullet. - -Mr. McCLOY. The mark to which you refer is the one on the right-hand -side of the exhibit toward the top, about an inch and a half from the -center line? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is that about 11 o'clock? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have another photograph, Mr. Frazier, of this? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I now hand you a bullet fragment, what appears to be a -bullet fragment, in a pill box which is labeled Jacket and Lead Q-2, -and it has certain initials on it. For the record, this was found--this -bullet fragment was found--in the front portion of the car in which -the President was riding. I ask you whether you are familiar with this -object. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I am. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is your mark on it? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you examine this? Is this a bullet fragment, Mr. -Frazier? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. This consists of a piece of the jacket portion -of a bullet from the nose area and a piece of the lead core from under -the jacket. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How were you able to conclude it is part of the nose -area? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Because of the rifling marks which extend part way up the -side, and then have the characteristic leading edge impressions and no -longer continue along the bullet, and by the fact that the bullet has a -rounded contour to it which has not been mutilated. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you examine this bullet to determine whether it had -been fired from Exhibit 139 to the exclusion of all other weapons? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What was your conclusion? - -Mr. FRAZIER. This bullet fragment was fired in this rifle, 139. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, did you weigh this fragment? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I did. It weighs 44.6 grains. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you take a photograph of the fragment as compared -with a test bullet? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. This photograph is labeled C-14 on the left and C-2 -on the right, and it is a photograph taken by you or under your -supervision? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. C-14 being the test bullet? - -Mr. FRAZIER. The test bullet from 139. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And what is the magnification of this photograph? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It would be 70 diameters. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may that be admitted? - -Mr. McCLOY. C-2 is the actual fragment? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can we go back a second? I don't think I asked for -admission of the bullet fragment which Mr. Frazier identified. May I -have that admitted? - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The bullet fragment will be 567 and the photograph just -identified by Mr. Frazier will be 568. - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. - -(The items described, identified as Commission Exhibits Nos. 567 and -568, were received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, could you discuss this photograph with us? - -Mr. FRAZIER. In Commission Exhibit 568 is again the vertical dividing -line through the center of the photograph, with the test bullet from -the rifle 139 on the left, and the bullet, Exhibit 567, on the right. -Am I right in that the bullet jacket fragment is 567? - -Mr. EISENBERG. I think I put it down here. That is right, 567. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Approximately two-thirds of a groove impression from each -of the two bullets is shown, with a very small portion at the bottom -of the photograph of a land impression. The individual microscopic -characteristics which were used in the comparison, and on which the -identification was made, were photographed and are as shown in this -photograph. However, this photograph did not enter into the actual -conclusion reached. The microscopic characteristics appear as parallel -horizontal lines extending from the test bullet on the left to the -bullet Exhibit 567 on the right. - -The marks used in the identification are grooves, paired lines, a -series of ridges up and down the hairline on one bullet, and they also -appear on the opposite side of the photograph. - -In one particular instance it will be seen that at the edge of the -land impression at the lower left portion of the photograph is a very -definite paired ridge which appears on the right side of the photograph -but in a slightly different area. - -The reason for the difference in the location of this paired line on -the exhibit, Exhibit 567, can be explained by the fact that this is a -jacket fragment, that it was torn from the rest of the bullet, and is -greatly mutilated, distorted, and bears only a very few areas suitable -for identification purposes because of that fact. - -The distortion has foreshortened the area of the jacket fragment, 567, -to the extent that over this approximately one-tenth-of-an-inch surface -represented in this photograph, these lines do not coincide exactly on -the lower part of the photograph when they are lined up on the upper -part of the photograph. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When you say they don't correspond exactly, do you mean -at all, or do you mean they aren't---- - -Mr. FRAZIER. I mean that the marks are present, but they do not line up -at the hairline. - -Mr. EISENBERG. But in your opinion the marks on the left are the same -as the marks on the right? - -Mr. FRAZIER. The marks on the left are the same marks as those on the -right. In the examination this is easily determined by rotating the two -bullets. As you rotate them, you can see these characteristic patterns -line up. - -Then you will notice these do not line up. But as you rotate one -bullet, you can follow the individual marks mentally and see that the -same pattern is present and you can line them up in your mind, even -though they are not actually physically lined up in the microscope. - -Mr. McCLOY. They are not lined up in the microscope because there is -mutilation on the fragment? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. And there is no mutilation on the test cartridge? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, in the lower portion of each side of that -photograph, which I take it is the groove of the bullet, or the land -impression of the rifle--is that correct? - -Mr. FRAZIER. The land on the rifle leaves this groove on the bullet. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; the right-hand side seems to be slightly striated -while the left-hand side does not seem to be striated. Can you explain -that? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, the striae in this side are not apparent in this -photograph. I don't know whether they actually exist on the bullet or -not. You can't tell from the photograph, because they are so fine as to -possibly not show at all. - -A close examination right at the hairline shows a whole series of very -fine scratches which do not appear further away from the hairline, -and that could be very easily due to differences in the metal, as the -bullet passed down the barrel, being pressed less forcibly against the -barrel, or could also be due to the fact that at the edges of the lands -it is very often evident that hot gases from the burning powder had -passed the bullet through these cracks and actually will melt or erode -away the surface of the bullet. - -As to why they may or may not be present is difficult to say from an -examination of the photograph. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What portion of the bullet fragment provided enough -markings for purposes of identification, approximately? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I would say that one-fourth, in this instance, one-fourth -of 567's surface was available. One-fifth to one-sixth would have been -sufficient for identification, based on the character of the marks -present. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now this portion of the fragment was an even smaller -portion of the bullet, the entire bullet, is that correct? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it was. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So when you say one-fifth and one-sixth, are you -referring now to the proportion of marks on the fragment, as opposed to -the proportion of marks you would want from an entire bullet? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No; I am referring to the proportion of marks on the -fragment which were used in the examination as compared to the total -bullet circumference which would have existed on an unmutilated bullet. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, do you feel that the amount of markings -here were sufficient to make positive identification? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you made identifications in the past with as few or -less markings as are present on this bullet fragment? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes; and on less, much less of an area. The character -of the marks is more important than the number of the marks. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, here you were of course unable to see -all of the lines which were present on the bullet before mutilation. -Have you ever had an occasion where you examined a bullet and saw one -portion of it which was an apparent match and then found out that the -balance of the bullet was not an apparent match? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; and if I understand your words "apparent -match," there is no such thing as an apparent match. It either is an -identification or it isn't, and until you have made up your mind, you -don't have an apparent match. We don't actually use that term in the -FBI. Unless you have sufficient marks for an identification, you cannot -say one way or the other as to whether or not two bullets were fired -from a particular barrel. - -In other words, you cannot nonidentify on the absence of similarities -any more than you can identify when you have no similarities present. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In other words, you won't make an identification unless -you feel enough marks are present to constitute a basis for a positive -identification? - -Mr. FRAZIER. That is right, and I would not report any type of -similarities unless they were sufficient for an identification, because -unless you can say one bullet was fired from the same barrel as a -second bullet, then there is room for error, and in this field of -firearms identification, we try to avoid any possible chance of error -creeping in. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you avoid the category of "probable" identification? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes; we never use it, never. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And why is that? - -Mr. FRAZIER. There is no such thing as a probable identification. It -either is or isn't as far as we are concerned. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And in this case it is? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It is, yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Any further questions on this bullet fragment, Mr. -Chairman? - -Mr. McCLOY. Do we have any proof in the record thus far as to where the -fragment referred to a moment ago came from? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Honestly, I am not sure. I know it will be in the record -eventually, but I have not taken that up as part of this testimony. - -Mr. McCLOY. That will be subject to further proof. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. If it is not in the record. As a result of all these -comparisons, you would say that the evidence is indisputable that the -three shells that were identified by you were fired from that rifle? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. And you would say the same thing of Commission Exhibit 399, -the bullet 399 was fired from that rifle? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. And the fragment 567---- - -Mr. FRAZIER. 567, the one we have just finished. - -Mr. McCLOY. Was likewise a portion of a bullet fired from that rifle? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. You have no doubt about any of those? - -Mr. FRAZIER. None whatsoever. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now finally in the category of bullets and bullet -fragments, I hand you what is apparently a bullet fragment, which -is in a pill box marked Q-3, and which, I state for the record, was -also found in the front portion of the President's car, and I ask you -whether you are familiar with this item, marked Q-3? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; this was submitted to me as having been found -beside the front seat of the automobile. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Your mark is on that fragment? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When did you receive that fragment, Mr. Frazier? - -Mr. FRAZIER. At 11:50 p.m., November 22, 1963, from Special Agent -Orrin Bartlett, our liaison agent with the Secret Service, in the FBI -laboratory. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And the last bullet fragment you examined, Exhibit 567, -when did you receive that? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It was received at the same time from Special Agent -Bartlett. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you examine both at that time, Mr. Frazier? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; beginning the following morning, November 23. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this bullet fragment marked Q-3 -admitted as Commission 569? - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. - -(The item, identified as Commission Exhibit No. 569, was received in -evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, did you examine this bullet fragment with a -view to determining whether it had been fired from the rifle, Exhibit -139? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What was your conclusion? - -Mr. FRAZIER. This bullet fragment, Exhibit 569, was fired from this -particular rifle, 139. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Again to the exclusion of all other rifles? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you weigh this fragment, Mr. Frazier? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I did. It weighs 21.0 grains. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe the fragment? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. It consists of the base or most rearward portion of -the jacket of a metal-jacketed bullet, from which the lead core is -missing. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How can you tell that it is the most rearward portion? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It has the shape which bases of bullets have. It has the -cannelure which is located at the rear, on the portion of bullets of -this type. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you determine whether this bullet fragment, 567, and -569 are portions of the originally same bullet? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You cannot? - -Mr. FRAZIER. There is not enough of the two fragments in unmutilated -condition to determine whether or not the fragments actually fit -together. - -However, it was determined that there is no area on one fragment, such -as 567, which would overlap a corresponding area on the base section of -569, so that they could be parts of one bullet, and then, of course, -they could be parts of separate bullets. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now 569 is without the core; is that correct? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you estimate how much weight you would add if you -had the core? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, I cannot. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Not at all? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No. I do not have the figure on the core weight. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In your opinion, is it possible that if you did make -such an estimate, the weight, the projected weight of 569 plus the -actual weight of 567 would exceed the bullet weight of the 6.5 mm. -bullet? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, no; it would not. - -Mr. EISENBERG. It would not? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It would not come even close to it, because the amount of -core is only--one-quarter inch of the bullet is all that remains at the -base, and that much core would not weigh more than 40 grains at the -most. - -Mr. EISENBERG. No cannelure shows on 567, is that correct? - -Mr. FRAZIER. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, did you make a comparison photograph of 569 -with a test bullet? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. This photograph is marked C-14 on the left and C-3 on -the right; is that correct? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. C-14 being the test? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, from the rifle 139, and C-3 is Exhibit 569. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And the magnification on this photograph is what, Mr. -Frazier? - -Mr. FRAZIER. 70 diameters. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And this was taken by you or under your supervision? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this admitted? - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. - -Mr. EISENBERG. 570. - -(The item was identified as Commission Exhibit No. 570 and was received -in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you discuss this picture? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Commission Exhibit 570 shows a portion of the test bullet -from Exhibit 139 on the left side of the photograph, and a portion of -the bullet 569 on the right side, divided by a hairline. - -The photograph was taken of the microscopic marks, examined through the -comparison microscope, consisting of very fine and very coarse grooves, -or scratches, or ridges, on the surface of each of the bullets as -compared with those on the other bullet. - -The photograph did not, of course, enter into the conclusion reached in -the examination, but was merely taken to demonstrate, to illustrate the -types of marks present insofar as a photograph can show them. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, what portion of the Exhibit 569 was -unmutilated enough to allow you to make a comparison of its markings? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Approximately one-third. Actually, the entire base section -of the bullet was present, but approximately one-half of that base -was mutilated. On the mutilated area, either marks were destroyed -completely by striking some object, or being compressed or stretched, -or they were thrown out of relationship with each other by stretching -or compressing to the extent that they were of no value. - -So I would estimate approximately one-third of the area was present. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, when you say one-third, is this total area or -circumference? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Circumference--one-third of the circumference. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have any further pictures of any of the bullets, -Mr. Frazier? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, I do not. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, I hand you two bullets and ask whether you -are familiar with them. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I am. These are the two test bullets which I fired -from this rifle, Exhibit 139. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do they have your mark on them? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, they do. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have these admitted as Exhibit 572? - -Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 572, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Getting back to the two bullet fragments mentioned, Mr. -Frazier, did you alter them in any way after they had been received in -the laboratory, by way of cleaning or otherwise? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; there was a very slight residue of blood or some -other material adhering, but it did not interfere with the examination. -It was wiped off to clean up the bullet for examination, but it -actually would not have been necessary. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is that true on both fragments? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You also mentioned there was blood or some other -substance on the bullet marked 399. Is this an off-hand determination, -or was there a test to determine what the substance was? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, there was no test made of the materials. - -Mr. EISENBERG. As you examined the bullet and the two bullet fragments, -are they in the same condition now as they were when they entered your -hands? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. One other question on the cartridge cases. - -Did you examine the cartridge cases for chambering marks, extraction -marks, or ejection marks? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I did, but I did not make any comparisons of either -extractor or ejector marks or chambering marks, since the purpose of my -examination was primarily to determine whether they were fired in this -rifle, and such marks would not have assisted in that determination. -They were not necessary because they would have indicated only that it -may have been loaded into and extracted from the weapon, whereas the -marks which I found served to identify it as having been fired in the -weapon, actually. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, unless you have further questions on the -cartridge cases or bullets, I would like to move on to another subject. - -Mr. McCLOY. From your examination of the actual bullets that you have -been told were fired on the day of the assassination from this rifle, -and from your--how many separate bullets do you identify? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Two, at the maximum--possibly three, if these two jacket -fragments came from different bullets. If they came from one bullet, -then there would be a maximum of the whole bullet 399 and this bullet -in two parts. - -Mr. McCLOY. And you cannot tell whether these two particles came from -one bullet or two separate ones? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When you say "two at the maximum," do you mean two at -the minimum? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I meant at least two bullets. - -Mr. McCLOY. There were at least two different bullets? - -Mr. FRAZIER. At least two, yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, can you give an estimate of the total -number of bullets fired in the various tests made with this rifle? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Approximately 60 rounds. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And were all of these rounds 6.5 mm. Western -Mannlicher-Carcano ammunition? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you have any misfires? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you find the ammunition dependable? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Very dependable. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you think of any reason why someone might think this -is an undependable type of ammunition? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; The Western Cartridge Co. has always -manufactured, in my experience, very dependable ammunition. There is -other ammunition on the market available for this particular rifle in -this caliber, which in my opinion is undependable or would be a very -poor quality of ammunition. It may have been a confusion between that -other ammunition of the same caliber and this Western ammunition. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you elaborate as to what that other ammunition -consists of? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Certain companies have imported into the United States -cartridges of foreign manufacture. Those I have seen for this rifle -were of Italian manufacture. They have pulled the military bullets from -those cartridges and reloading hunting type or soft-point bullets into -the cartridges. In doing that, they did not, apparently, take any great -pains in loading them. Occasionally, the mouth of the case would be -bent over and the bullet driven in right on top of the bent case. - -I have seen split cartridge cases, even before they were fired, badly -corroded cartridge cases. All in all, the ammunition is of generally -poor overall appearance, and it has been reported to me that it was of -poor firing quality. - -I have not fired any of it, personally. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you heard anything about the dependability of the -Italian-made ammunition, unreloaded? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; not as such. - -However, I have experienced the examination of Italian ammunition of -various years of manufacture and, of course, various makes. And I think -it is rather poor quality in this particular caliber, primarily due to -the very short seating depth to which bullets of this type are seated -in the cartridge, which causes the bullets to loosen very readily in -the cartridge case even before they are loaded into a clip or fired. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you notice, Mr. Frazier, in your examination of -targets and so forth, whether there was any marked degree of yaw or -tumbling by the bullets? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No evidence at all of tumbling or yaw. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In your opinion, would the firing of 60 shots materially -affect the microscopic characteristics of Exhibit 139? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It would change them, if not completely, practically -completely. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, some witnesses to the assassination -have stated that they heard more than three shots. Can you think of -any reason why they might have come to that conclusion--in terms of -acoustical properties of high-velocity bullets? - -Mr. FRAZIER. They could very readily have heard other sounds which -could be confused with shots. It is apparent--it is obvious with any -weapon in which the bullet travels faster than the speed of sound, -which is 1,127, approximately, feet per second, the bullet itself will -cause a shock wave or a sound wave, and a person standing in front -of that weapon will hear the report of the bullet passing and then -subsequently the sound will reach them of the cartridge explosion, -which could very easily be confused with two shots. There will be the -crack of the bullet going by, overhead or in the vicinity, and then the -sound of the shot. - -So that you would hear for three shots actually six reports, which -could have caused some confusion. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, I now hand you a bullet in a pill box which -is marked Q-188. I ask you whether you are familiar with this bullet. - -I would like to state for the record that this bullet was found in the -Walker residence after the attempted assassination of General Walker. - -Mr. McCLOY. As far as you know, we have no proof of that yet? - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is right. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I am familiar with it. I have made an examination of -that bullet. - -With reference to this bullet, I could furnish everything except the -weight of it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. All right. Just taking one thing at a time. You are -familiar with it. Does it have your marking on it? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it does. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this admitted as 573? - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. - -(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 573, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. When did you receive this bullet, do you recall, Mr. -Frazier? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I would need to refer to my notes for that. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you supply that for us at a subsequent time? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And the weight. - -Is this bullet in the same condition as it was when you received it in -the laboratory, Mr. Frazier? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you clean it up or in any way alter it when you -received it? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, did you examine this bullet to determine -whether it was or might have been fired in Exhibit 139? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And what was your conclusion? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I was unable to reach a conclusion as to whether or -not it had been fired from this rifle. The conclusion went slightly -further than that, in that we determined that the general rifling -characteristics of the rifle 139 are of the same type as those found -on the bullet, Exhibit 573, and, further, on this basis, that the -bullet could have been fired from the rifle on the basis of its land -and groove impressions. And, second, that all of the remaining physical -characteristics of this bullet, 573, are the same as Western 6.5mm. -Mannlicher-Carcano bullets of the type normally loaded in ammunition -made for this rifle, 139. However, the mutilation of the nose of the -bullet has eliminated the length characteristics, and it cannot be -definitely stated that Exhibit 573 is in fact a Western Cartridge -Co. product, but all of the remaining characteristics of base shape, -distance from the base to the cannelure, the width of the cannelure, -and the overall appearance, coloration, and so forth, are similar to -Western ammunition. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is this a jacketed bullet? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it is a copper-alloy jacketed bullet having a lead -core. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you think of any reason why someone might have -called this a steel-jacketed bullet? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; except that some individuals commonly refer to -rifle bullets as steel-jacketed bullets, when they actually in fact -just have a copper-alloy jacket. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe the general rifling characteristics -which you referred to? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. They consist of impressions from four lands and -grooves. The bullet is mutilated on a portion of its surface. However, -it can be determined that there were four land impressions and four -groove impressions originally on this bullet. - -The width of the land impression is 7/100ths of an inch, that is 0.07 -inch--whereas the width of the groove impression is 0.13 inch, or -13/100ths of an inch. - -The bullet is flattened so that it was not possible to measure its -diameter. However, by adding the land width to the groove width, and -multiplying by the number of lands and grooves, you can determine the -circumference of the bullet and mathematically determine its diameter, -which in this case corresponds to 6.5 mm. ammunition, or approximately -.267 inch. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What was the direction of the twist? - -Mr. FRAZIER. To the right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you estimate how many types of rifle would -produce, on a 6.5 mm. bullet, four lands and four grooves, right -twist, with the width of lands and grooves which you established as -being those on this bullet? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Only from experience, I could say that it would be -relatively few which would agree with all of those characteristics. I -have, of course, not seen or measured all of the foreign rifles, and -therefore I could not estimate the number that there might be. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you find any miscroscopic characteristics or other -evidence which would indicate that the bullet was not fired from 139? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Were you able to determine the depth of the grooves of -the bullet? - -Mr. FRAZIER. The bullet, 573, had what appeared to be normal-depth -grooves. - -However, this bullet is completely flattened due to hitting a plaster -or cement or other hard material on one side, and the opposite side, -as a result of the flattening--has assumed a concave appearance, which -has stretched the surface in various places and changes its overall -appearance--that is the basis for actually having to state that there -were not enough unmutilated marks for identification purposes on it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. But you do conclude that this was fired from -a Mannlicher-Carcano 91/38, or a rifle with similar barrel -characteristics? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, do you have any further questions on this? - -Mr. McCLOY. When you say you were able to determine it was fired from -this type of rifle or one similar to it, that would include a number of -different kinds of rifles besides the Mannlicher-Carcano? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it could include a variety of weapons with which -I am not familiar in the foreign field. - -Mr. McCLOY. But it is definitely, according to your best judgment, a -6.5 mm. bullet? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. And the bullet, such as we find it, has now characteristics -similar to the type of bullet which was our Exhibit No. 399? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it does. Placing them side by side, the cannelure, -which is really the only physical characteristic apparent, comes to -exactly the same place on both 399 and 573, indicating that this bullet -was loaded to exactly the same depth in the cartridge--the two bullets, -both 399 and 573. - -Mr. McCLOY. I think I have no further questions. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, did any other firearms experts in the FBI -laboratory examine the three cartridge cases, the bullet, and the two -bullet fragments which you have testified as to today? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, all of the actual firearms comparisons were also made -by Charles Killion and Cortlandt Cunningham. These examinations were -made separately, that is, they made their examination individually -and separately from mine, and there was no association between their -examination and mine until both were finished. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did the three of you come to the conclusions which you -have given us today as your own conclusions? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did anyone in the FBI laboratory who examined the -evidence come to a different conclusion as to any of the evidence you -have discussed today? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is there anything you would like to add to your -testimony, Mr. Frazier? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Not with reference to this material, no. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Are you thinking of---- - -Mr. FRAZIER. I am thinking of other examinations which I made, but -which probably will come up at another time. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You are referring to examinations such as the clothing, -holes in the clothing, and the fracture in the automobile windshield? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. There will be testimony elicited at another time on -those examinations, Mr. Frazier. - -Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Frazier will be a witness in those, too? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes, sir. - -Mr. Specter will probably elicit that testimony. - -Mr. Chairman, or gentlemen, are there any other questions? - -Thank you very much, Mr. Frazier. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Excuse me. I have one photograph here that might be useful -in this regard, and that is of a clip showing the six cartridges loaded -into it. - -Mr. McCLOY. I think that might be a good idea. You might identify that, -to show what we mean by clips. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You have shown us photographs of a clip--the clip from -the Exhibit 139 rifle? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. One photograph loaded, and one unloaded? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. In one instance I put six cartridges in the clip and -photographed it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you take those photographs? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Frazier, you testified that if you didn't use the clip -you would only be able to shoot one shell at a time, is that right? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; this weapon does not have the box magazine -commonly found in most military weapons which holds the cartridges -and can be reloaded one at a time, but they must remain in the clip, -or they will malfunction. The follower in the weapon will throw the -cartridges right back out of the gun. - -Mr. McCLOY. That explains it to my mind, because I know I have fired -rifles with clips and fired them without clips. But they were much more -convenient in loading. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; this one is designed---- - -Mr. McCLOY. For example, the Springfield you could load with clip or -load without a clip. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. But this one has to have a clip in order not to malfunction? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it does. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Those will be 574 and 575. - -Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted. - -(The photographs referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 574 -and 575, and received in evidence.) - -Mr. McCLOY. Thank you very much, Mr. Frazier. You have been very -helpful. - - -TESTIMONY OF RONALD SIMMONS - -Mr. EISENBERG. Our next witness will be Mr. Simmons. - -Mr. McCLOY. Would you hold up your right hand? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give in this hearing -will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help -you God? - -Mr. SIMMONS. I do. - -Mr. McCLOY. Please be seated. - -This, as you know--the constitution of the Commission and its -purpose--we want to ask you something about the firearm aspect of our -hearings, and certain characteristics of this rifle that we would like -to hear from you about, and if there is anything else you have that can -throw light on our problems. - -If you can state for the record, first, your name, and where you live. - -Mr. SIMMONS. My name is Ronald Simmons. I live near Havre de Grace, Md. - -Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Eisenberg? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you give us your position, Mr. Simmons? - -Mr. SIMMONS. I am the Chief of the Infantry Weapons Evaluation Branch -of the Ballistics Research Laboratory of the Department of the Army. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And how long have you held this position? - -Mr. SIMMONS. This position, about four years, and previous employment -has been in these laboratories. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How long have you been working, Mr. Simmons, in the area -of evaluation of weapons? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Since 1951, in various classes of weapons. - -Since 1957, however, I have had the responsibility for the laboratories -on small arms. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Has part of it--of these--have part of these evaluations -been conducted with military rifles, Mr. Simmons? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Most of our evaluations have been associated with military -rifles. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How long altogether have you spent in this area? - -Mr. SIMMONS. In the area of rifles? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. - -Mr. SIMMONS. Some experience beginning from about 1953. I have been -continuously concerned with this since 1957. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you give a rough estimate of how many weapons you -have evaluated as to accuracy? - -Mr. SIMMONS. No. We have been concerned with almost all of the -weapons which the Army has tested, either in preliminary stages or as -developmental weapons. - -Mr. EISENBERG. But your specialty is the evaluation of weapons systems, -including military rifles, and you have been engaged in this for 13 -years, as to all weapons systems, and since 1953 as to---- - -Mr. SIMMONS. Yes, that is correct. - -Mr. McCLOY. In the course of that you have examined hundreds of rifles, -though, have you not? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Well, our examination of rifles is not the detailed -engineering, design experiment which a gunsmith or a rifle expert -as such would concern himself with. We are more concerned with -establishing a framework by which we can put numbers to the performance -of military rifles in tactical employment. And this means that for a -specific--specific classes of weapons, we have had to establish, for -example, round-to-round dispersion, the accuracy with which they can be -employed, and the wounding power of the projectiles. - -Mr. McCLOY. In the course of this you have fired a great many rifles -yourself? - -Mr. SIMMONS. No, sir; I don't fire them. - -Mr. McCLOY. Somebody else fires them? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. But you make the studies in relation to the accuracy of the -weapons? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Yes, that is correct. The firing is accomplished by -employees of the development and proof services, which is the weapons -testing facility at the Aberdeen Proving Ground. - -Mr. McCLOY. Your task is primarily evaluation---- - -Mr. SIMMONS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Of the characteristics of the rifle, particularly in terms -of its accuracy and its wounding power, killing power? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may this witness be admitted as an expert -to testify in this area? - -Mr. McCLOY. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Simmons, did you conduct a test from a machine rest, -a test of round-to-round dispersion of this weapon, or have such tests -conducted? - -Mr. SIMMONS. May I check the serial number? - -Mr. EISENBERG. I should ask first if you are familiar with this weapon. - -I have handed the witness Commission Exhibit 139. - -Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. We fired this weapon from a machine rest for -round-to-round dispersion. We fired exactly 20 rounds in this test, and -the dispersion which we measured is of conventional magnitude, about -the same that we get with our present military rifles, and the standard -deviation of dispersion is .29 mil. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is a fraction of a degree? - -Mr. SIMMONS. A mil is an angular measurement. There are 17.7 mils to a -degree. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do I understand your testimony to be that this rifle is -as accurate as the current American military rifles? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. As far as we can determine from bench-rest firing. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would you consider that to be a high degree of accuracy? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Yes, the weapon is quite accurate. For most small arms, -we discover that the round-to-round dispersion is of the order of -three-tenths of a mil. We have run into some unusual ones, however, -which give us higher values, but very few which give us smaller values, -except in selected lots of ammunition. - -Mr. McCLOY. You are talking about the present military rifle--will you -designate it? - -Mr. SIMMONS. The M-14. - -Mr. McCLOY. Is it as accurate as the Springfield 1906 ammunition? - -Mr. SIMMONS. I am not familiar with the difference between the M-14 in -its accuracy and the 1906 Springfield. These are very similar in their -dispersion. - -Mr. McCLOY. At a hundred yards, what does that amount to? What is the -dispersion? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Well, at a hundred yards, one mil is 3.6 inches, and 0.3 -of that is a little more than an inch. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You tested this with what type of ammunition, Mr. -Simmons? - -Mr. SIMMONS. The ammunition was labeled Type Ball, and it was made by -the Western Cartridge Co., Division of Olin Industries. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Was that a 6.5 mm.? - -Mr. SIMMONS. 6.5-mm. Mannlicher-Carcano. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In the course of this test from a machine rest, Mr. -Simmons, did you also attempt to determine the muzzle velocity? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Yes; we also measured muzzle velocities for approximately -10 rounds of the ammunition. We gather from these measurements that the -nominal velocity, the nominal muzzle velocity is of the order of 2,200 -feet per second, and the velocity at about 200 feet from the muzzle -is approximately 2,000 feet per second. And there is some variation -in velocity from round to round as there is with all small-arms -ammunition. But the variation is relatively small, and within the same -order of magnitude as for conventional ammunition. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you test the bullets for yaw? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Yes; we measured yaw also, and all measurements of yaw -were also small. We had no values in excess of 2 degrees, and many -values were less than 1 degree in yaw, indicating that the round is -quite stable. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How did you test for yaw? - -Mr. SIMMONS. We took spark shadowgraph pictures at various stations -down range from the muzzle, so that we actually have pictures of the -position of the bullet relative to the top and bottom of our range. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you bring those pictures with you? - -Mr. SIMMONS. No; I do not have them with me. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you furnish those to the Commission at a later -date? - -Mr. SIMMONS. They could be made available later. I would like to point -out these are not pictures, however. They are on large pieces of glass, -and they are not photos. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can they be read by a layman? - -Mr. SIMMONS. That I do not know. I do not read them. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Well, I wonder whether you can send them up, and we -could take a look at them. - -Mr. SIMMONS. Yes; we can have them forwarded. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Was it reported to you by the persons who ran the -machine-rest tests whether they had any difficulties with sighting the -weapon in? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Well, they could not sight the weapon in using the -telescope, and no attempt was made to sight it in using the iron -sight. We did adjust the telescopic sight by the addition of two -shims, one which tended to adjust the azimuth, and one which adjusted -an elevation. The azimuth correction could have been made without the -addition of the shim, but it would have meant that we would have used -all of the adjustment possible, and the shim was a more convenient -means--not more convenient, but a more permanent means of correction. - -Mr. EISENBERG. By azimuth, do you refer to the crosshair which is -sometimes referred to as the windage crosshair? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would you recognize these shims that I display to you, -Mr. Simmons, as being the shims that were placed in the weapon? - -Mr. SIMMONS. I saw the shims only when they were in the weapon, but -those look very much like what was evident from the external view, -after they were in place. - -Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, Mr. Chairman, these shims were given to -me by the FBI who told me that they had removed them from the weapon -after they had been placed there by Mr. Simmons' laboratory. - -May I have these introduced as evidence? - -Mr. McCLOY. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Simmons, I find there are three shims here. You -mentioned two. Would three be consistent with what you were told? - -Mr. SIMMONS. I was told two. These were put in by a gunsmith in one of -our machine shops--rather a machinist in one of our machine shops. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Simmons, I wonder whether you could take these shims -back after I have marked them to find out whether the three had been -placed? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I am marking these 576, 577, and 578. They consist of -three shims in three small envelopes. - -(The items referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 576, 577, -and 578, and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Simmons, did you have a test run to determine the -possibility of scoring hits with this weapon, Exhibit 139, on a given -target at a given distance under rapid-fire conditions? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Yes; we did. We placed three targets, which were head -and shoulder silhouettes, at distances of 175 feet, 240 feet, and 265 -feet, and these distances are slant ranges from the window ledge of a -tower which is about 30 feet high. We used three firers in an attempt -to obtain hits on all three targets within as short a time interval as -possible. - -I should make one comment here relative to the angular displacement -of the targets. We did not reproduce these angles exactly from the -map which we had been given because the conditions in the field were -a little awkward for this. But the distance--the angular distance -from the first target to the second was greater than from the second -to the third, which would tend to correspond to a longer interval of -time between the first and second impact than between the second and -the third. The movement of the rifle was greater from the first to the -second target than from the second to the third. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Simmons, were your marksmen instructed to aim at the -three targets in consecutive order? - -Mr. SIMMONS. The marksmen were instructed to take as much time as they -desired at the first target, and then to fire--at the first target, -being at 175 feet--to then fire at the target emplaced at 240 feet, and -then at the one at 265 feet. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you state where you derived these distances? - -Mr. SIMMONS. These distances were the values given on the survey map -which were given to us. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Are you sure they were not the values I gave to you -myself? - -Mr. SIMMONS. I stand corrected. These are values--we were informed that -the numbers on the survey map were possibly in error. The distances are -very close, however. - -Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, the figures which I gave Mr. Simmons are -approximations and are not to be taken as the Commission's conclusive -determination of what those distances are. - -Mr. SIMMONS. For our experiment, I do not see how a difference of a few -feet would make any difference. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Simmons, did you take pictures or have pictures -taken showing what that range looked like? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Yes; I have copies of these pictures here. I show you -three pictures--the first showing the window from which the weapon was -fired in our experiments; the second showing the view of the three -targets from the window; and the third showing a rifleman in position. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Simmons, did you take these pictures yourself? - -Mr. SIMMONS. No; these pictures were taken by one of the cameramen from -the development and proof services. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you see the scenes represented in these pictures? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Are these pictures accurate reproductions of these -scenes? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like to have the first, second, -and third pictures described by Mr. Simmons admitted as exhibits. That -will be 579 for the first, 580 for the second, and 581 for the third. - -Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted. - -(The photographs referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 579, -580, and 581 and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Simmons, the targets were--well, can you describe -the targets for us? - -Mr. SIMMONS. The targets are standard head-and-shoulders silhouettes, -and they consist of approximately 2 square feet in area. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How many marksmen were involved? - -Mr. SIMMONS. We used three riflemen. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And can you tell us what their background was? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. All three riflemen are rated as Master by the -National Rifle Association. Two of them are civilian gunners in the -Small Arms Division of our Development and Proof Services, and the -third is presently in the Army, and he has considerable background as a -rifleman, and also has a Master rating. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Each fired one or more series of three rounds? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Each fired two series of three rounds, using the -telescopic sight. Then one of the firers repeated the exercise using -the iron sight--because we had no indication whether the telescope had -been used. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So the total number of rounds fired was what? - -Mr. SIMMONS. 21. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you bring with you targets or copies of the targets? - -Mr. SIMMONS. I brought photos of the targets. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you take these photographs, Mr. Simmons, or have -them taken under your supervision? - -Mr. SIMMONS. These photographs were taken by the photographic -laboratory in our Ballistic Measurements Laboratory, which is one of -the complex of laboratories within the Ballistic Research Laboratory. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you verify these photographs as being accurate -reproductions of the targets? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have these admitted as 582, 583 and -584? - -Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted. - -(The photographs referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 582, -583, and 584 for identification and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Simmons, could you discuss the results of the tests -you ran, by using these photographs? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Exhibit 582 is the target which was emplaced at 175 feet. -All firers hit the first target, and this was to be expected, because -they had as much time as they desired to aim at the first target. - -As you can see from the picture, the accuracy of the weapon is quite -good. - -Mr. McCLOY. That first target is what distance? - -Mr. SIMMONS. 175 feet. And we had to make an assumption here about the -point of aim. It is quite likely that in fact each man was aiming at a -different portion of the target--there were no markings on the target -visible to the firer. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did I understand you just told the firers to aim at the -target without referring to---- - -Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. There is an apparent crossline running darkly through -that photograph. - -Mr. SIMMONS. These lines were drawn in afterwards, in order for us to -make some measurements from the actual impact point. - -The target which was emplaced at 240 feet, as shown in Exhibit 583--we -had rather an unusual coincidence with respect to this target. This -involved the displacement of the weapon to a sufficient angle that the -basic firing position of the man had to be changed. And because they -knew time was very important, they made the movement very quickly. And -for the first four attempts, the firers missed the second target. Of -course, we made a rather, I guess, disadvantageous error in the test by -pointing out that they had missed on the second target, and there was a -conscious effort made on the additional rounds to hit the second target. - -On the third target, the angle through which the weapon had to be moved -to get to the third target from the second was relatively small, and -there were only two rounds which did not hit the target at 270 feet. -One of these rounds, by the way, was used in the sequence where the -iron sight was employed. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Simmons, when you said that the firers had to make a -large shift relatively in their firing position, and were in a hurry, -is this your interpretation or is this based on discussions with them -subsequently? - -Mr. SIMMONS. This is based on discussions with the firers after the -experiment. - -Mr. EISENBERG. After these tests were finished, did you make a -determination of the amount of error--average amount of error in the -aim of these riflemen? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. By assuming that all riflemen had aimed at the -intersection of the lines that we have drawn on these pictures, we -calculated the total aiming--the aiming error associated with the three -riflemen--this is one number to describe the accuracy of all three -riflemen. And against the first target the accuracy observed was about -.7 mils, in standard deviation. Against the second target, the accuracy -was 1.4 mils. And against the third target, it was 1.2 mils. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Again, could you convert those at a hundred yards to -inches? - -Mr. SIMMONS. 0.7 of a mil at 100 yards is approximately 2 inches. 1.4 -mils is approximately 4 inches. And 1.2 mils is approximately 3-1/2 -inches. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In arriving at these figures, had you discounted the -round-to-round dispersion as determined in the bench rest test? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. We have subtracted out the round-to-round dispersion. - -Mr. EISENBERG. But the actual accuracy of the riflemen would have to -include the round-to-round dispersion, would it not? - -Mrs. SIMMONS. Yes; it would. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Why did you then subtract the round-to-round dispersion -figure, or discount it? - -Mr. SIMMONS. We wanted to determine what the aiming error itself was -associated with the rifle. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you give us the times in which the various riflemen -used to fire the three shots in each sequence? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. And the numbers which I will give you will be the -average of two readings on stop watches. - -Mr. EISENBERG. For each rifleman? - -Mr. SIMMONS. For each exercise. - -Mr. Hendrix fired twice. The time for the first exercise was 8.25 -seconds; the time for the second exercise was 7.0 seconds. - -Mr. Staley, on the first exercise, fired in 6-3/4 seconds; the second -attempt he used 6.45 seconds. - -Specialist Miller used 4.6 seconds on his first attempt, 5.15 seconds -in his second attempt, and 4.45 seconds in his exercise using the iron -sight. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What was the accuracy of Specialist Miller? - -Mr. SIMMONS. I do not have his accuracy separated from the group. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is it possible to separate the accuracy out? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Yes; it is, by an additional calculation. - -Mr. Miller succeeded in hitting the third target on both attempts with -the telescope. He missed the second target on both attempts with the -telescope, but he hit the second target with the iron sight. And he -emplaced all three rounds on the target, the first target. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How did he do with the iron sight on the third target? - -Mr. SIMMONS. On the third target he missed the boards completely. And -we have not checked this out. It appears that for the firing posture -which Mr. Miller--Specialist Miller uses, the iron sight is not zeroed -for him, since his impacts on the first and second targets were quite -high, and against the third target we would assume that the projectile -went over the top of the target, which extended only a few inches over -the top of the silhouette. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What position did the rifleman fire from, Mr. Simmons? - -Mr. SIMMONS. The firers braced an elbow on the window sill and used -pretty much a standard sitting position, using a stool. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How much practice had they had with the weapon, Exhibit -139, before they began firing? - -Mr. SIMMONS. They had each attempted the exercise without the use of -ammunition, and had worked the bolt as they tried the exercise. They -had not pulled the trigger during the exercise, however, because we -were a little concerned about breaking the firing pin. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you give us an estimate of how much time they used -in this dry-run practice, each? - -Mr. SIMMONS. They used no more than 2 or 3 minutes each. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did they make any comments concerning the weapon? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Yes; there were several comments made--particularly with -respect to the amount of effort required to open the bolt. As a matter -of fact, Mr. Staley had difficulty in opening the bolt in his first -firing exercise. He thought it was completely up and it was not, and -he had to retrace his steps as he attempted to open the bolt after the -first round. - -There was also comment made about the trigger pull, which is different -as far as these firers are concerned. It is in effect a two-stage -operation where the first--in the first stage the trigger is relatively -free, and it suddenly required a greater pull to actually fire the -weapon. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Simmons, did you prepare a table showing the -probability of hit at a given target at given ranges by riflemen with -given degrees of accuracy? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Well, we prepared a table which showed what the -probability of a hit would be on specific sizes of target as a function -of aiming error, and using the appropriate round-to-round dispersion -also in these calculations. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What were the targets that you used in your calculations? - -Mr. SIMMONS. We used two circular targets, one of 4 inches in radius -and one of 9 inches in radius, to approximate the area of the head and -the area of the shoulders, or the thorax, actually. And a significant -point to these calculations to us is that against the larger target, if -you fire with the 0.7 mil aiming error which was observed against the -first target, the probability of hitting that target is 1, and it is 1 -at all three ranges, out to 270 feet. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain the meaning of the probability being 1? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Well, the probability is effectively one. Actually the -number is 0.99 and several more digits afterwards. It is rounded off to -1. Simply implying that the probability of a hit is very high with the -small aiming errors and short range. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now of course this aiming error is derived from the -three riflemen who you employed in the tests, is that correct? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you proceed to the other two? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Using the 1.2 mil aiming error, again at the larger -targets, the probability of hitting the target at 175 feet is 1; at 240 -feet it is 0.96; and at 270 feet it is 0.92. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How would you characterize the second two figures in -terms of probability? - -Mr. SIMMONS. These also are very high values. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The mil figure was 1.2, was it? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Does that include, did you say, both aiming error and -round-to-round dispersion? - -Mr. SIMMONS. The 1.2 is the aiming error. When we include the -round-to-round dispersion, it becomes only 1.24 mils. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Does the probability reflect the 1.2 or the 1.24 figure? - -Mr. SIMMONS. It reflects the total error, which is 1.24. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And the same on the first series of calculations you -gave us? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would you go on to the third? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Using the 1.4 mil aiming error, and the round-to-round -dispersion, giving a total error of 1.43 mils, the probability of hit -at the 175 foot target is 0.99; at 240 feet it is 0.91; at 270 feet it -is 0.85. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you give us the figures for the smaller target? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Using the 0.7 mil aiming error, the probability of a hit at -175 feet is 0.96; at 240 feet, 0.81; at 270 feet, 0.73. - -For the 1.2 mil aiming error, the probability is 0.69 at 175 feet; 0.74 -at 240 feet; 0.39 at 270 feet. - -Using the---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you characterize those, or explain them in lay terms? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Well, against a shorter target, the probability is still -almost 0.7, which is a relatively high value. The effective-range -increase is beginning to show, however, because at 270 feet the value -of 0.4 tends to be small. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Does 0.4 mean you have 4 chances in 10 of hitting? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. - -Now, our assumption throughout all of this is that the actual target -was probably not either a small--the small area, but tending to be a -larger area, as indicated by the crosshairs in these targets which we -placed at this point. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you have given us probabilities of hit with three -variations of aiming error. You have selected these three variations in -what manner, Mr. Simmons? - -Mr. SIMMONS. These were actually the three values which were -demonstrated in the experiment. - -Mr. EISENBERG. But each of those values is associated with one target? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. However, you have applied them to all three targets? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you have a special reason for doing that? - -Mr. SIMMONS. No. We are victims of habit, and we tend to provide such -information in parametric form. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Simmons, of course the assassin's aiming error -must be unknown. But do you have any opinion concerning the probable -aiming error of an assassin using this weapon against the aiming error -displayed by the three riflemen you employed? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Well, it looks like to achieve hits as indicated, the -accuracy, overall accuracy of the three rounds would have to be of the -order of 1.2 mils. And this is really not a small number as far as -marksmanship goes. There have been many exercises in which we have been -involved where the aiming error turns out to be much smaller, smaller -than this. And in match competition, of course, the numbers actually -turn out to be--the total aiming error turns out to be about equal to -the round-to-round dispersion. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When you make the reference to many exercises, are you -referring to exercises solely with skilled riflemen? - -Mr. SIMMONS. If we have skilled riflemen, the values for aiming error -tend to be of the order of 1 mil. As a matter of fact, to qualify as -expert on Army rifle courses, about a 1 mil aiming error is required--a -standard deviation of 1 mil. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is that with a rest or without a rest? - -Mr. SIMMONS. This would be without a rest. This would be the actual -aiming error from the fixed position, firing range. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And is this with open or telescopic sights? - -Mr. SIMMONS. This would be with the peepsight on the conventional rifle. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you exercises which you feel would be applicable to -the assassination--that is, exercises conducted with--under noncombat -conditions, with a telescopic sight and a rest? - -Mr. SIMMONS. The only experience that we have with the telescopic sight -with which I am familiar is the exercise using this weapon. There have -been experiments made using telescopic sights, but these are of limited -interest militarily. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In your opinion, what effect does the introduction of a -rest and telescopic sight have on probable aiming error? - -Mr. SIMMONS. From a position where the movement of the weapon is not -great, and where the target is slowly moving, the fixed position on the -telescope should enhance the probability of a hit. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you think a marksman who is less than a highly -skilled marksman under those conditions would be able to shoot in the -range of 1.2-mil aiming error? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Obviously considerable experience would have to be -in one's background to do so. And with this weapon, I think also -considerable experience with this weapon, because of the amount of -effort required to work the bolt. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would do what? You mean would improve the accuracy? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. In our experiments, the pressure to open the bolt was -so great that we tended to move the rifle off the target, whereas with -greater proficiency this might not have occurred. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could this experience in operating the bolt be achieved -in dry practice, Mr. Simmons? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Yes; it could be, if sufficient practice were used. There -is some indication of the magnitude of change with one of our shooters -who in his second attempt fired three-tenths of a second less time than -he did in the first. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Simmons, has data been compiled showing the effect -of the time taken between shots on the accuracy of the shots? - -Mr. SIMMONS. There have been experiments run where aiming error has -been measured as a function of the time one has to aim. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do those experiments show that aiming error is directly -proportionate to the length of time one has to aim? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Not directly proportionate, but aiming error decreases -as time increases. But once you get to the area of about 4 seconds in -time, then there is very small decrease in aiming error for increase in -time. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Translating that to this weapon, does that mean that -taking more than 8 seconds between three shots should not appreciably -affect the degree of accuracy? - -Mr. SIMMONS. The 8 seconds I was referring to is between shots. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You said 4 seconds, I thought. - -Mr. SIMMONS. I beg your pardon. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And I was saying, if you took 4 seconds between the -first and second, and 4 seconds between the second and third, for a -total of 8 seconds, on the basis of this data would that mean after -8 seconds you would not be substantially increasing your accuracy by -taking more time? - -Mr. SIMMONS. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Approximately how many bullets did you fire in the -course of your tests? - -Mr. SIMMONS. We fired 47 bullets. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you have any misfires? - -Mr. SIMMONS. None. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Were you aware when you performed your tests of the -conclusions of any other body concerning the accuracy of this weapon? - -Mr. SIMMONS. No; we were not. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Are you aware of such conclusions at this point? - -Mr. SIMMONS. No; I am not. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman? - -Mr. McCLOY. You said that these riflemen, or one or two of them at -least, had the rank of master. What is that? - -Mr. SIMMONS. I again fall back on my comment earlier that I am not -a shooter myself. A master is one of the ratings given to highly -qualified riflemen by the National Rifle Association. These men have -all participated in national match competitions in the National Rifle -Association. - -Mr. McCLOY. Is that a higher grade than sharpshooter in the Army? - -Mr. SIMMONS. There is really no comparison between the rating of master -in the NRA and the rating of sharpshooter in the Army. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I am not sure whether or not you answered this question, -but do you feel that if the target was moving, rather than having the -rifleman move, there would have been a difference in aiming error, -increased or decreased aiming error--if the target was moving 5 to 10 -miles an hour? - -Mr. SIMMONS. I think the movement of the target in this case would have -practically no effect on the accuracy of fire, because from the map we -are led to believe that the movement was primarily away from the firer, -so that the back of the President was fully exposed to the rifleman at -all times. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you explain your reference to a map? You have made -several references to that. - -Mr. SIMMONS. I refer to the survey plat which is dated December 5, 1963. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And how were you supplied with that? - -Mr. SIMMONS. To the best of my knowledge, you gave it to one of the -employees in my office. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, this is a plat made by a licensed surveyor -of the area immediately adjoining the Texas School Book Depository. -I would like to introduce it into evidence solely to show the basis -which Mr. Simmons was using in his test, and not for the truth of the -measurements which are shown in here. - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be received. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That would be Commission 585. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 585 and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. I have no further questions. - -Mr. McCLOY. I have no further questions. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is there anything you would like to add to your -testimony? - -Mr. SIMMONS. I think not. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I wonder whether we could have a copy of your table? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. From your experience, Mr. Simmons, do you feel that with -a man who had been in the Marine Corps, with the rifle instruction he -had there, using this rifle, and what you know of the shots that killed -the President--do you think he was an extraordinarily good shot, do you -think he was just shooting in accordance with what might be taken to be -the skill that service in the Marine Corps would give him? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Well, in order to achieve three hits, it would not be -required that a man be an exceptional shot. A proficient man with this -weapon, yes. But I think with the opportunity to use the weapon and to -get familiar with it, we could probably have the results reproduced by -more than one firer. - -Mr. McCLOY. I think that is all. - -Mr. EISENBERG. One thing, Mr. Chairman. May I have this admitted as -586, this table which Mr. Simmons prepared, from which he was giving -testimony earlier? This is "Table I, Hit Probability as a Function of -Range and Aiming Error." - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. - -(The table referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 586 and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. When you say proficiency with this weapon, Mr. Simmons, -could you go into detail as to what you mean--do you mean, accuracy -with this weapon, or familiarity with the weapon? - -Mr. SIMMONS. I mean familiarity basically with two things. One is the -action of the bolt itself, and the force required to open it; and two, -the action of the trigger, which is a two-stage trigger. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can familiarity with the trigger and with the bolt be -acquired in dry practice? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Familiarity with the bolt can, probably as well as during -live firing. But familiarity with the trigger would best be achieved -with some firing. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Why is there this difference between familiarity with -the bolt and familiarity with the trigger in dry firing? - -Mr. SIMMONS. There tends to be a reaction between the firer and the -weapon at the time the weapon is fired, due to the recoil impulse. And -I do not believe the action of the bolt going home would sufficiently -simulate the action of the recoil of the weapon. - -Mr. EISENBERG. One further question. - -Looking at the figures for aiming error, as discounted by -round-to-round dispersion, how would you characterize the actual -performance of men with this rifle--that is, not the accuracy of the -weapon, but the accuracy of man and weapon. - -Mr. SIMMONS. I am not sure I understand your question. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you feel on the basis of the aiming error, discounted -for round-to-round dispersion or including it, that this weapon is an -easy one with which to be accurate, or a difficult one? - -Mr. SIMMONS. It appears to be relatively conventional in that regard, -I assume. The telescope helps in the accuracy against a target which -is well displayed, as was the case here. And the weapon is reasonably -conventional. So that I think it would not be significantly different -from any other weapon. - -Mr. McCLOY. If you were having a dry run with this, you could certainly -make yourself used to the drag in the trigger without discharging the -rifle, could you not? - -Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. But there are two stages to the trigger. Our riflemen -were all used to a trigger with a constant pull. When the slack was -taken up, then they expected the round to fire. But actually when the -slack is taken up, you tend to have a hair trigger here, which requires -a bit of getting used to. - -Mr. McCLOY. This does not have a hair trigger after the slack is taken -up? - -Mr. SIMMONS. This tends to have the hair trigger as soon as you move it -after the slack is taken up. You achieve or you feel greater resistance -to the movement of the trigger, and then ordinarily you would expect -the weapon to have fired, and in this case then as you move it to -overcome that, it fires immediately. And our firers were moving the -shoulder into the weapon. - -Mr. McCLOY. I have no further questions. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is all. - -Mr. McCLOY. Thank you very much. You have been very helpful. - -We shall recess now until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. - -(Whereupon, at 5:25 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -_Wednesday, April 1, 1964_ - -TESTIMONY OF CORTLANDT CUNNINGHAM AND JOSEPH D. NICOL - -The President's Commission met at 9 a.m. on April 1, 1964, at 200 -Maryland Avenue NE., Washington. D.C. - -Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Hale -Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Mr. Allen W. Dulles, members. - -Also present were Melvin Aron Eisenberg, assistant counsel; Norman -Redlich, assistant counsel; Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel; Charles -Murray and Charles Rhyne, observers. - - -TESTIMONY OF CORTLANDT CUNNINGHAM - -The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. - -Mr. Cunningham, the purpose of today's hearing is to take the testimony -of yourself and Mr. Joseph Nicol. We understand that you are a firearms -expert with the FBI, and Mr. Nicol is a firearms expert with the Bureau -of Criminal Identification and Investigation of the Department of -Public Safety of the State of Illinois. - -You have both been asked to provide technical information to assist the -Commission in its work. - -Would you raise your right hand and be sworn, please? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give will be the -truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I do. - -The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please. - -You may proceed with the examination. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, would you state your name and position? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Cortlandt Cunningham. I am a Special Agent of the FBI. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And in what branch of the FBI do you work? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am assigned to the Firearms Identification Unit of -the FBI Laboratory, here in Washington, D.C. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What is your education? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I have a Bachelor of Science degree from Northwestern -University, and a Bachelor of Laws degree from the University of Miami. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you briefly state your qualifications in the field -of firearms identification? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Upon entering the FBI Laboratory, I underwent an -extensive training course under the supervision of experienced -examiners in the field of firearms identification, which consisted of -making thousands of examinations and comparisons of bullets, cartridge -cases, and weapons. - -I have also done reading in the subject. I have done some research and -conducted many experiments in the field. And, of course, I have made -thousands of examinations on my own and testified numerous times in -State and Federal courts. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How many years have you been in the Laboratory, Mr. -Cunningham? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Over 5 years, and I have been in the Bureau over 10 -years. - -The CHAIRMAN. The witness is qualified. - -Mr. EISENBERG. To begin with, Mr. Cunningham, we had some testimony -yesterday on the bullet which is thought to have been fired at General -Walker. That is Commission Exhibit No. 573. Are you familiar with this -bullet, Mr. Cunningham? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you supply the weight of that bullet, which was -going to be supplied to us? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I can. This bullet weighed 148.25 grains. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Does that show some weight loss, if the bullet was from -a 6.5 mm. Mannlicher-Carcano cartridge? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It does. Those bullets weigh 161 grains, but there is a -great deal of mutilation on this bullet. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And could you tell us when you received this bullet in -your laboratory, Mr. Cunningham? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. It was received from the Dallas office of the FBI -on December 4, 1963. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And when was it examined? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It was examined that date. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, I now hand you Commission Exhibit No. -143, and I ask you whether you are familiar with this exhibit, which, -for the record, is a revolver. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. If you will excuse me, I won't open the cylinder. I -have checked the cylinder, and there are expended or fired cartridge -cases in the cylinder. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Which you have placed in it for a special demonstration? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I fired it, yes, prior to my testimony here today. I -have seen this weapon before. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Again for the record, this is the weapon which is -believed to have been used in the murder of Officer Tippit. Can you -describe this weapon in terms of name, caliber and so forth? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Do you want me to describe it as it is today? - -Mr. EISENBERG. As it is today. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. As it is today, it is a .38 Special Smith and Wesson, -Victory Model revolver. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And was it always a .38 Special? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, it was not. Originally this weapon was known as -a .38-200 British Service revolver. In this country the weapon would -be known as a .38 caliber Smith and Wesson revolver, Victory Model. -However, the British gave the designation .38-200 to it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Was this revolver made in the United States? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It was. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And has it been in England subsequent to that? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And how can you tell that, Mr. Cunningham? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Well, first of all, all weapons going into England have -to be proofed. They are proofed at, usually, the Birmingham proofhouse. - -Representative FORD. What does that mean? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They are tested for whether they will withstand a -certain charge. They place in the cylinders overloaded cartridges, and -they are fired, in the cylinder, as this one has been. It has been -proofed to 3-1/2 tons. Each chamber in the cylinder has been proofed. - -You can tell that, because each chamber has been stamped with the -Birmingham proofmark, indicating that each chamber in the cylinder has -been proofed. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, could you explain to us the difference -between a .38 S&W and a .38 Special? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They are completely different cartridges. One cartridge -is a .38 Special, and the other cartridge is a .38 S&W, or actually -written out it would be Smith and Wesson. It was developed for their -weapons, and it 1s quite an old cartridge, and it is known--usually as -appears on a box of ammunition--as merely a .38 S&W. However, there are -many differences in the cartridges. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you brought two--an example of each type of -cartridge with you? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I have. First of all, this is actually a Western .38 -S&W cartridge. You will see the head stamping on the base of this -cartridge signifies it to be a .38 S&W. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Before you go any further--Mr. Chairman, may I have this -marked as an exhibit--this specimen? - -I am holding a cartridge marked Western .38 S&W, and it is submitted as -Commission Exhibit 587. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 587, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. If you would care to see one broken down, I have one -with me. That is the same cartridge where the bullet has been pulled -and the powder has been dumped out. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is also a .38 S&W cartridge, but it has been -disassembled into a bullet and a cartridge case? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. The bullet has been pulled out of the -cartridge case and the powder removed. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this admitted as an exhibit? - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be. What is the number? - -Mr. EISENBERG. That will be 588. - -The CHAIRMAN. It will be admitted as Commission Exhibit 588. - -(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 588, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. This particular cartridge, which is one complete -cartridge, is a Remington-Peters .38 S&W. These two components actually -are of the same cartridge. All I have done is pull the bullet, and it -is also a Remington-Peters .38 S&W. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is the same cartridge as Exhibits 588 and 587? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. The only difference is that they are -different brands. They were made by two different manufacturers. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you show that to the Chairman for his examination? - -The CHAIRMAN. These appear to be lead bullets. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They are, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. The others appeared to be jacketed. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They are not, sir. It is known as gilding metal. They -are copper-coated lead bullets. Actually, it is an alloy--it is not -pure copper. They have been flash coated, for sales appeal, more than -anything else. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Does that coating serve to prevent distortion to any -measurable extent when the bullet has penetrated a body? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, it would not, to any appreciable amount. It is such -a thin coat, as you can see. Later on I will show you the ones that -have been fired, and also the bullets removed from Officer Tippit's -body. You can see the coating comes off--it flakes off--it is very thin. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So that Exhibits 587 and 588 are substantially similar -to the R-P cartridge you have just been discussing? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. They are both loaded to the same specifications, -even though there are two manufacturers. All commercially made -ammunition in this country is loaded to a specific muzzle velocity. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this R-P cartridge which Mr. -Cunningham has been discussing admitted into evidence as Commission -Exhibit 589? - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 589, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. You have been showing us a .38 S&W, Mr. Cunningham? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have an example of a .38 Special? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I do. The first one is a Western .38 Special -copper-coated lead bullet of Western manufacture, a .38 Special. The -other components I have here are components of the same cartridge from -which the bullet has been pulled. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have the cartridge case, bullet, and cartridge -admitted into evidence as 590? - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 590, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cunningham, could you describe to us briefly -the difference---- - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Do you want the Remington-Peters? - -Mr. EISENBERG. You are holding in your hand a Remington-Peters -disassembled and assembled .38 Special? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would you hand that to the Chief Justice? May this be -admitted into evidence as Exhibit 591? - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 591, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. This consists of an assembled R-P .38 Special and a -disassembled R-P .38 Special. - -Again, I notice, Mr. Cunningham, that the R-P bullet has a lead-colored -look, whereas Exhibit 590 had a copper-colored look. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. The Western coating is known by the trade -name "Lubaloy." It is a trade name of the Western Cartridge Co., and -it is nothing more than a gilding metal--actually, it is just a flash -coating on the outside of the bullet. There is some advantage, a very -small advantage, as to leading. But it is mostly for sales appeal, -because with Winchester bullets, some do and some don't have the -coating. Most of Winchesters which is the same bullet, have not been -copper coated--that they are selling today. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, can you explain the difference in terms of -dimensions and contour, weight, and so forth, between the .38 Special -bullets which you have just shown us and the .38 S&W bullets which you -have shown to us? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. The complete .38 Special cartridges, -both brands, they are approximately the same--they are made to -specifications, and they are within--just 1/1000th difference between -the two of them. They are very close. In some cases, there is a slight -difference, but generally they are the same size. - -The .38 Special cartridges are a little over 1-1/2 inches in length. -The .38 S&W cartridges are approximately 1.2 inches in length. In other -words, there is about 4/10ths of an inch difference in their length. - -The bullets of the .38 Special weigh 158 grains--both brands. -The bullets in the .38 S&W cartridges--there is one grain -difference--Western Lubaloy bullets weigh 145 grains, and Remington's -bullets weigh 146 grains, which is very close, when you figure there -are 7,000 grains to the pound. - -The length of the bullets themselves--the .38 Special bullets are -approximately .72 plus inch. The .38 S&W bullets are approximately -.6 plus inch. The lengths of the cartridge cases are also different. -A .38 Special is approximately 1.15 inches for both brands. The .38 -S&W cartridge cases are approximately .77 inch. And there you have -approximately a quarter of an inch difference between the lengths of -the cartridge cases. - -The diameters of the bullets--the .38 Special bullets, at the -portion of the bullet where the case is crimped into the bullet are -approximately .357". - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is the groove around the base of the bullet, also -known as the cannelure? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, it is just above the two grooves, which are known -as cannelures, where the bullet is crimped. It is known as the crimp -ring. It is nothing more than where the case has been crimped in. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I have pulled out the bullet from Exhibit 591, and there -is a little groove running above the second groove from the top--from -the bottom, the base, of the bullet. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That would be your crimping groove. Up at approximately -that area, both .38 Specials are approximately .357". However, the -bases of the .38 Specials, both brands, are about .350". - -In other words, there is about 7/1000ths difference between the base -and where they are crimped, and both brands of .38 Specials seem to -run--slightly undersized at the base. - -On the .38 Special the diameter of the bullets where they are crimped -is .357". The .38 S&W Remington-Peters bullets run about .360", or -just slightly less, which is about 3/1000ths larger. Their bases, both -brands, run about .356". In other words, they run about 6/1000ths -larger at the base--even though the bullets are shorter overall in the -.38 S&W. - -Mr. EISENBERG. To summarize that, in terms of the diameter, do I -understand that the .38 Special and the .38 S&W have a similar diameter -as you approach the nose of the bullet, but that the .38 has a somewhat -larger diameter at the base than the .38 Special? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. .38 S&W. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, why would the gun be rechambered from the original -chamber, which was designed for the .38 S&W, to the chamber as it -stands now, which you tell us is designed for the .38 Special? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. In this country, the .38 S&W is not a popular cartridge -at the present time. In years gone by, many, many, many weapons have -been made for that particular cartridge. But they are usually the -top-break, the cheaper type of weapon. The .38 Special cartridge is a -better cartridge. There is a higher velocity and everything about the -cartridge is better than the .38 S&W, ballistically. - -The .38 Special has become popular in this country for revolvers. And -the reason it was chambered in .38 S&W originally is because in England -and on the Continent it is a popular cartridge. The .38 S&W in England -is the .38-200. They loaded a 200-grain bullet into the same cartridge -case, and it was the standard British Army load for this particular -weapon and others. Why they took that particular cartridge, I do not -know. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Was the gun rebarreled as well as rechambered? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, it was not. The barrel of this weapon has been cut -off approximately 2-3/4 inches. The original barrel was 5 inches for -this model. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would the failure to rebarrel affect the accuracy of the -weapon? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It should slightly, if you are firing .38 Special -bullets, because they are slightly undersized in a .38 S&W barrel. On -the average, .38 S&W barrels are approximately 4/1000ths larger than -the normal .38 Special barrel. In this particular weapon, that holds -true. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would it affect accuracy at close range? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. None whatsoever. And there, again, the shortening of -the barrel would affect the accuracy more than the use of .38 Special, -due to the fact that your sight radius has been cut down. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is to say, when you shorten the barrel, the length -between the front and the back sights is shorter, therefore giving more -room for error? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. In other words, the movement of the front -sight will cause more of a discrepancy at the target at longer ranges, -due to the shorter sight radius. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is there any functional reason for cutting the barrel -down to its present short size? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Sales appeal, I would say, is the main reason. Also, -concealment. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In your experience, is a short barrel, cut-down barrel -weapon like this usually purchased for legitimate purposes by other -than police officers? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Possibly a collector. Among target shooters, it is not -a popular weapon, due to the short sight radius. Revolvers with 6-inch -barrels are very accurate weapons. A target shooter would not use a -weapon of the short barrel type. Therefore, it is not a very popular -weapon for sportsmen. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Does the cutting off of the barrel increase the -possibility of concealment? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It does, because it makes it handier. I carried, when I -was in the field 5 years--I carried my personally owned firearm, which -had a 2-inch barrel, due to the fact that for concealment you could not -see it when I wore a suit, and it was more discreet in the type of work -I was doing. - -The CHAIRMAN. Can both kinds of cartridges be used interchangeably in -this gun? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. In this particular gun, yes sir. It makes no difference. - -The CHAIRMAN. Either an S&W or S&W Special? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; the chambers of this particular cylinder have -been bored out, it appears from the very rough marks, to accommodate -the forward portion of a .38 Special cartridge. Also, when this barrel -was made--or the cylinder was made--the chambers had a shoulder or lip -that the .38 S&W cartridge case would fit up against. The bullet would -go forward farther, but the cartridge case would fit up against this -shoulder at the neck. - -And in order to chamber a .38 Special, that forward portion had to -be bored out slightly, several thousandths to accommodate the longer -cartridge, which, by the way, is a very common thing on these surplus -weapons. Practically all of them are being rechambered, due to the -popularity of the .38 Special cartridge. - -The CHAIRMAN. I see. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, this weapon--was this weapon sold into -the United States after it had been used in England? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How much sign of use does it show? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It has definitely been used, there is no doubt. -However, the cylinder is quite tight, and I would say that this weapon -is in good operating condition. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, since it was sold used, are you unable to attribute -any amount of use to the last user? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is right, you would not be able to tell. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, could you explain briefly the manner -in which this revolver is operated, paying particular attention to -extraction and loading and reloading? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. First of all, the weapon has a frame into -which a barrel has been screwed and a cylinder which is hinged on a -crane is also fitted into the frame. There is a cylinder release on the -left-hand side of this weapon which enables one to push the cylinder to -the left. - -The cylinder has six chambers--in other words, it is a six-shot weapon. -There is an extractor rod and an extractor in the rear portion of the -cylinder. When you press on the extractor rod, either loaded cartridges -or fired cartridge cases may be extracted from the cylinder so that it -may be reloaded again. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cunningham, in the operation of this weapon, -the cylinder takes six bullets--is that correct? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In the operation of this weapon, when six bullets have -been loaded into the cylinder, is any action needed for firing except -six consecutive trigger pulls? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. You can fire this weapon either single -or double action. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, can you explain the meaning of that? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. Double action is accomplished by pulling the -trigger. In other words, you just pull the trigger each time and you -can fire this weapon six times before reloading. This weapon can also -be cocked, which puts the sear on the step of the hammer and reduces -the trigger pull, and may be fired that way. This is known as single -action. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, if a person using the gun and having it fully -loaded with six bullets fired less than six bullets, can he use this -ejector-extraction mechanism without losing his unfired bullets as well -as the empty cartridge cases? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir--by merely tipping the weapon. The unfired -cartridge is heavier, and will fall out of the cylinder into his hand. -Then he can extract the cartridge cases and load in more. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you demonstrate that? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. If I may have a cartridge, please. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have any fired cartridges in the cylinder? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; I do. Prior to my appearance here today, this -morning, I fired five cartridges in this weapon, and they are still in -the cylinder. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You are now placing an unfired---- - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. An unfired cartridge in the sixth chamber of the -cylinder. Now, in a normal way, you would hit the cylinder release, -push in your hand like this, and tip it up. The unfired cartridge will -fall right out into your hand, due to the fact that the chambers of -the cylinder are naturally larger than the cartridge you are loading -in there--for ease of putting them in. When you fire a cartridge -in a revolver, the case expands as wide as the cylinder. In other -words, when the firing pin hits the primer, there is an explosion in -the primer, the powder is ignited in the cartridge, and the terrific -pressure will expand the cartridge case to tightly fit the chamber. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I would like the record to show that when Mr. Cunningham -tipped the revolver, the unfired bullet tipped out, but the five -expended shells remained in. - -The CHAIRMAN. Very well. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cunningham, would you show how you would eject -the five expended shells? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. These are very difficult, by the way, to extract, -due to the fact that the chamber has been rechambered. And as you can -see, you get on your cartridge cases a little ballooning with these -smaller diameter cases in the .38 Special. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I would like the record to show that Mr. Cunningham -extracted the five expended cartridge cases merely by one push of the -ejector rod. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. You won't be able to see it again, but when you eject a -cartridge case--later on for the powder pattern test, I will show that -you can have residues of unburned powder. That is what would happen -if you ejected these cartridge cases in your hand. You would pick up -unburned powder, residues, and partially burned powder. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham had ejected five cartridge cases from the -revolver into his hand, and his right hand is now filled with small -black particles, whose composition I am unable to determine. - -Representative FORD. That would happen any time that you did it? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; every time you eject them, these particles -will come out from the cylinder into your hand--unburned powder, -partially burned powder, and gunpowder residues. - -Representative FORD. Had you fired this morning these particular -bullets? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; at 8:15. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, these cartridge cases which you ejected -were .38 Special cartridge cases? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They were. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What time did you fire those bullets, those .38 Special -bullets in this revolver? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. At approximately 8:15 this morning. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Let the record show that it is now 9:45. Now, Mr. -Cunningham, could this revolver be loaded on the run, or while walking? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It could. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you personally loaded a revolver like this while -walking? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. And running. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Does this revolver have a serial number on it? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It does. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you read that number to us, please? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. V-510210. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is this serial number unique to this particular type of -weapon? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. Smith and Wesson does not duplicate numbers. You -may have a similar number, but not with the prefix "V." - -Mr. EISENBERG. So this is the only such weapon with this serial number -that is in existence? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. As far as I know. I have never found -one in my experience, and Smith and Wesson does not duplicate serial -numbers in a particular series of weapons. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Smith and Wesson claims not to duplicate? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, how fast could one get off shots from -this weapon, shooting rapid fire, and without sighting? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. In a combat stance, that is crouched, with a gun at -belt level, and your wrist locked, you would have no trouble at all -getting off five shots in from 3 to 4 seconds. - -Mr. EISENBERG. With what degree of accuracy at close range? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Excellent. All FBI agents, for instance, practice at 7 -yards, which is 21 feet, and we are hitting in the "kill zone" without -any problem. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How much training would one have to have with this -weapon to get four hits in four or five shots at close range into a -human body? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. None whatsoever--if you can pull the trigger and point -directly at a person, at 8 feet you would not likely miss--with one -exception. If you did not lock your wrist, there is a possibility -you could shoot too low, or you could pull to the side. Anyone with -a little bit of knowledge and with--and really grabbing hold of the -weapon, would have little difficulty at all at that distance. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When you say "lock your wrist," do you mean just -pointing the wrist so that it is in a straight line with your lower -forearm? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. In other words, to tighten it, and not be in a -relaxed position. By merely tightening the wrist, you would have no -trouble at all hitting a person, approximately the same distance as Mr. -Eisenberg and myself. - -The CHAIRMAN. I suppose a person who had the normal small-arms training -that he gets in the Marine Corps would have the ability to do what you -have just spoken of? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Definitely, sir. As a matter of fact, with any training -at all with a revolver, I would say that he would hit 90 percent of the -time. - -Representative FORD. Is there a recoil action at all from this kind of -weapon? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; you get recoil. But if you have had any -training with a weapon of this sort, the recoil is not even noticed. -The first time you ever fired this weapon the recoil or the noise, -might bother you. But if you have ever fired a handgun, you don't even -think about recoil. You automatically adjust. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, you mentioned distance between you and -me earlier, a few sentences ago. Could you estimate that distance? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Approximately 8 feet. - -Mr. EISENBERG. If there are no further questions on the revolver, I -propose to move on to identification of bullets and cartridge cases -associated with the Tippit murder. - -The CHAIRMAN. I have none. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, I hand you Commission Exhibits Nos. 145 -and 518, which, for the record, consist of bullets, unfired bullets -which were found in the revolver and the pocket of Lee Harvey Oswald -following his arrest on November 22. I ask you whether you are familiar -with the bullets in these exhibits. - -You are now looking at which exhibit, Mr. Cunningham? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Commission Exhibit 518. - -I have seen them before. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe these bullets very briefly? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. They are cartridges. There are four -cartridges. Two are Western .38 Special with copper-coated lead bullets -loaded into these cartridges. The other two are Remington-Peters .38 -Special cartridges, which are loaded with lead bullets. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you describe the bullets in the other exhibit? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Commission Exhibit 145 consists of one Western .38 -Special cartridge, which is also loaded with a copper-coated lead -bullet, and the other cartridge is a Remington-Peters .38 Special -cartridge, which is loaded with a lead bullet. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I now hand you another group of bullets, marked Q-82 -through Q-86. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Eisenberg, would you state for the record at this -time what those two bullets are? They are introduced another time. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; all the bullets which Mr. Cunningham examined were -found either in the pocket or the--pocket of Lee Harvey Oswald--or the -cylinder of his revolver at the time of his arrest on November 22. - -I now hand you another group of bullets marked Q-82 through Q-86, and -with certain other markings on them. - -Are you familiar with these bullets? And may I state for the record -that the bullets I have just handed Mr. Cunningham derive from the same -source. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am familiar with these bullets. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you describe these briefly? - -Before I do that--Mr. Chairman, may I have these bullets admitted into -evidence as a group, as Exhibit 592? - -The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted. - -(The articles referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 592, and -received in evidence.) - -The CHAIRMAN. At this time, I shall have to leave to attend a session -of the Supreme Court. - -Commissioner Ford, would you preside? - -And, during the morning, Commissioner Dulles will be here, I am told, -and if you leave, leave him in charge, will you, please? - -Representative FORD. Yes, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. - -Mr. Cunningham, thank you for your assistance. Glad to have seen you. - -(At this point, Mr. Warren withdrew from the hearing room.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you describe the bullets in Exhibit 592, Mr. -Cunningham? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; all five of them are Western .38 Special -cartridges, which are loaded with copper-coated lead bullets. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So that of a total of--you have examined a total of 11 -bullets, and three are Remington-Peter--well, at any rate, of the 11 -they are divided 3 and 8 into Remington-Peter and Western .38 Special -bullets? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cunningham, I hand you four cartridge cases in -an envelope marked Q-74, Q-75, Q-76, and Q-77. And I ask you whether -you are familiar with these cartridge cases. - -Mr. Cunningham, before going on to the cartridge cases I just handed -you, could you explain when you received the bullets which are -comprised in the last three exhibits, and who you received them from, -and how they were presented to you? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. Commission Exhibit 145 consists of the two -cartridges that we received--the FBI received from the U.S. Secret -Service. We received them on December 3, 1963. - -That is correct. They were personally delivered to the laboratory by -Special Agent Orrin Bartlett of the FBI, who is a liaison agent with -the Secret Service. And he delivered them to us on December 3, 1963. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And did he identify them in any way to you when he -delivered them? Did he describe their origin to you? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; he did not describe them to us. - -Mr. EISENBERG. All right. Could you go on to the next group of five -cartridges? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. I don't know the exhibit number. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is Exhibit 592. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Commission Exhibit 592 was received in the FBI -Laboratory from the Dallas office of the FBI on November 30, 1963. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you tell us who you received them from? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The Dallas office of the FBI. I have no first-hand -knowledge. I know that they were received from the Dallas Police -Department--but that was due to what I have read in an FBI -investigative report. The laboratory received them from the Dallas -office on November 30. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you go on to the last group of four bullets? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Commission Exhibit 518 was also received from the -Dallas office of the FBI on November 30, 1963. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, for the record, I would like to state that to the -best of my knowledge the group of two and the group of four bullets, -which together total six, were taken by the Dallas Police from the -chamber of the revolver which is Exhibit 143, after the apprehension -of Lee Harvey Oswald. They were then split into two groups of two and -four as we have them now, two bullets being given to the Secret Service -and eventually, as Mr. Cunningham relates, to the FBI, and four bullets -going to the Dallas office of the FBI. - -The group of five bullets was taken from a pocket of Lee Harvey Oswald, -following his apprehension on November 22 and was kept separated from -the remaining bullets, I believe, merely because they had been taken -from a different source--that is, the pocket rather than the chamber of -the revolver. - -Mr. Cunningham, returning to Exhibit 145, do either of the two -cartridges in Exhibit 145 bear any signs of having suffered an impact -from the firing pin in the revolver, Exhibit 143? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. An examination of these two cartridges, the primers of -these two cartridges, reveals no marks that could be associated with -the firing pin in Commission Exhibit 143, or any other weapon. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Are there any nicks on either of those cartridges? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. There is a small nick, an indentation, up near the -edge of the primer in the Remington-Peters .38 Special cartridge. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could this nick have been caused by the firing pin? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. There was no indication, from an examination, that that -nick had been so caused by a firing pin. - -First of all, it is in the wrong position, it is not in the center of -the primer. And, also, a microscopic examination of that nick gave no -indication that it was made by a firing pin. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you microscopically examine the bases of both -cartridge cases? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, turning to Exhibit 518, consisting of four -bullets, which, as I mentioned earlier, were, like the two bullets in -Exhibit 145, taken from the chamber of the revolver, did you find any -nicks in any of these bullets, the bases of any of these bullets? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Just by handling, there are bound to be small -microscopic scratches of one kind or other. But there was no indication -that any of the primers in these four cartridges had been struck by a -firing pin. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Were these also examined microscopically? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They were, individually. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When you say there was no indication that they were -struck by a firing pin, in your opinion, based on the construction of -this weapon, if the firing pin had been drawn back to any extent and -then released, would it have left a mark on one of the cartridges? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is--yes and no. It depends on how far it is drawn -back. As soon as the hammer internally clears the rebound block, the -hammer is then able to go forward and it probably would have fired. -But up to that point, the hammer is held back from striking, it -cannot--under normal conditions--be made to fire a cartridge. - -However, it has been found with this particular weapon, a drop of -approximately 3 feet on the hammer would fire a cartridge in the -chamber. - -Representative FORD. How far back does the hammer have to be drawn in -order to fire? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That can be shown very easily by holding the cylinder. -By holding the cylinder, that distance can be seen, which is -approximately 3/8 to 1/2 inch. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The witness is demonstrating. - -The hammer, as he says, is going back about 3/8 of an inch. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Once you allow the cylinder to rotate, then the rebound -block is pushed out of the way, as you can see. Then you can cock the -weapon. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you demonstrate for us the sound which would be -heard if you held the cylinder, pulled back, and then released the -trigger? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. A snapping sound can definitely be heard. - -Mr. EISENBERG. There is a very audible snapping sound. Would that -snap--that amount of snap--leave a mark on the base of the cartridge -case against which the firing pin---- - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Under these conditions it could not leave a mark, -because the rebound block is in the way. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When you say rebound block, this is a block between the -firing pin and the base of the cartridge case? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; it is the block that is forcing the trigger -to go forward after it is pulled back. You see, your trigger will snap -back. It is done by a spring in the block. - -Mr. EISENBERG. To put it differently, this block would prevent the -firing pin from emerging from its hole? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. That is exactly it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, could the firing pin emerge from its hole without -having traveled a considerable distance back? That is, to say, at what -point does the rebound block release the hammer? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. At approximately--well, right there you can hear it. -That is a good half inch. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you pull it back and then release that half an -inch to disengage the rebound block? - -(The witness did so.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. If the firing pin hit the cartridge with that amount of -force, do you believe the cartridge would be fired? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is there any possibility it would not be fired? Any -substantial possibility? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It would still make a mark. - -Mr. EISENBERG. It would make a mark, at any rate? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Let me clarify it. It still will not fire because the -block will go forward. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What will go forward? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. In other words, the trigger has to be pulled through -the whole cycle in a Smith---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. In order to disengage---- - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Either that, or cocked before the block will be out of -the way. When you pull the trigger and you don't release it or if it is -in the cocked position and the trigger is pulled and not released, the -hammer will stay forward. The firing pin will stay forward, so you can -see it out through the breech face, as long as the trigger is pulled. -Then when you release the trigger, the rebound block throws your -trigger forward, so the weapon can be fired again. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You are modifying what you had said previously? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And you do that upon closer examination of the weapon? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No; it is on the basis of trying to describe an -internal part without seeing it. If you would care to, I can show -you what it looks like. I have a photograph of the National Rifle -Association breakdown. It would be easier to explain if I could show -you what I am referring to. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you, please? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Before you refer to this diagram, could I take a look at -it? - -Congressman Ford, could I have that diagram admitted into evidence? - -Representative FORD. It will be admitted. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That will be 593. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 593, and -received in evidence.) - -Representative FORD. Mr. Eisenberg, do you want the whole article? - -Mr. EISENBERG. I think we might as well put the whole article in, yes. - -(To Mr. Cunningham.) Perhaps it would be easiest if you came around -here, since the diagram is a small one. - -Now, the diagram which you are referring to is on page 61, the second -page of this Exhibit 593? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Right. - -As you can see, it is a diagram with the sideplate removed, which is -this portion right here. It is the right-hand side of the weapon. -(Witness pointing to revolver.) We are looking down on it with the -sideplate on. These four screws hold on the sideplate. - -When you pull the trigger of---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. The sideplate is marked 20 over here? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes--No. 20 is the sideplate. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is in the diagram. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No. 42 in the diagram is the trigger. There is a sear -arrangement on the trigger, attached to the trigger. If you cock it, -the sear arrangement will go up into a notch on the hammer right there, -and hold it back--right in here. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is number---- - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. You see, this is the sear. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, could you use numbers? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. No. 39 is the sear, and the sear is attached to -the trigger, which is No. 42 in the diagram. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, we are referring to the first page of the exhibit. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. When the trigger is pulled on this particular weapon, -or if the hammer is drawn back, there is a notch on the hammer which -is engaged by the sear. When the hammer is back you have to pull the -trigger to disengage the sear mechanism from the hammer. When you pull -back and it is in the notch, that is known as single-action firing. - -Also, No. 30 in the diagram is known as the rebound slide or block, -and this rebound slide is positioned right behind the trigger on an -internal part of the weapon. When the trigger is pulled, the recoil -slide runs in a horizontal direction. As you can see by the larger -drawing right here--it is a small camming action. It comes up, and is -being pushed back. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is in the middle of the second page of the exhibit. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Now, do you see the rounded portion of the hammer right -here, right in front of the notch? - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is No.---- - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Number--on No. 42, the hammer, on the bottom, right -next to the notch that the sear engages, is a rounded portion. That -is--in actuality, this rebound slide acts as an internal safety, so the -hammer cannot go forward unless the trigger is pulled or it is cocked, -because it is in the way. It cannot go all the way forward, due to the -fact that--right there you can see it very plainly in the schematic -numbered drawing on page 2. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The number you are pointing to is what? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It is on the trigger, number---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. Forty-two? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Not trigger--the hammer, No. 34. - -By the way, on the prior 42 I meant 34. I got the wrong number. I was -referring to the right piece, but the wrong number. - -But you can see this little--it is like a curved portion. It prevents -the hammer from going any further forward. The firing pin will not come -out of the hole in the breech face. - -Now, as soon as you pull the hammer back, the rebound slide, No. 30, is -out of the way. - -Also, when you pull the weapon through double action, that slide pushes -back, and your sear doesn't even touch the groove in the hammer, but it -just keeps on going right on through. In other words, you are pulling -the trigger strictly against the mainspring all the way. When it is on -the notch, it is being held, and the only pressure needed, is to take -off the sear. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cunningham, to focus this line of questioning, -Officer McDonald, who has reported that he was in a struggle with Lee -Harvey Oswald on November 22d, while Oswald was in possession of this -revolver, has stated that--I am reading now from an affidavit, from a -letter from Officer McDonald to Mr. J. E. Curry, chief of police of the -Dallas Police Force, dated December 3, 1963. - -He states in this letter that as he came in contact with Oswald, "I -managed to get my right hand on the pistol over the suspect's hand. I -could feel his hand on the trigger. I then got a secure grip on the -butt of the pistol. I jerked the pistol and as it was clearing the -suspect's clothing and grip, I heard the snap of the hammer, and the -pistol crossed over my left cheek. I marked the pistol and six rounds -at central station. The primer of one round was dented on misfire at -the time of the struggle with the suspect." - -Now, in light of your examination of this weapon, and your discussion, -could you comment on this statement? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I personally have fired this weapon numerous times, as -well as Special Agents Robert Frazier and Charles Killion. At no time -did we ever attempt to fire this weapon that it misfired. It operated -excellently and every time we have tried to fire it, it has fired. - -It is very possible when he says that he reached across, and he grabbed -it, that he locked the cylinder, which I think any trained police -officer would do. You want to stop this cylinder from rotating. As -soon as you do that, you have actually stopped the hammer falling on a -live round, because if the hammer is allowed to go forward again, and -it hasn't gotten into the cocked position, the rebound slide, as I was -stating before, would block the firing pin from striking the primer of -the cartridge. - -Mr. EISENBERG. As I understand it, the cylinder is so interconnected -with the trigger, that the trigger cannot be pulled all the way back -when the cylinder has been firmly grasped? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And if the hammer has not been pulled all the way back, -the rebound slide will not allow the firing pin to strike the cartridge? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Officer McDonald's statement that the primer of -one round was dented on misfire: as far as you can tell, could this -statement be confirmed? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; we found nothing to indicate that this -weapon's firing pin had struck the primer of any of these cartridges. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, if the firing pin had struck the primer, it could -only have been after the trigger was pulled all the way back, under the -discussion you have just given us, is that correct? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Or after cocking. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Or after it had been cocked and pulled? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; if it is in the cocked position, grabbing the -cylinder will do you no good; due to the fact that in the very -operation of cocking this weapon, the cylinder is rotated, and it is -ready to be fired. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, in either event, the hammer would have traveled -almost to the outermost extremity to which it can go. That is, the -hammer would have traveled back all the way, whether it was cocked or -fired in a double-action manner. If that had happened, what would the -likelihood be that upon returning to the cartridge case, it would not -fire the cartridge case--that upon returning to the cartridge, the -cartridge would not be fired? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. You mean actually the hammer had gone all the way -through its cycle? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I can only say that from my examination internally, as -well as having fired this weapon--I found no reason why you would get a -misfire with this weapon. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, if a man had put his hand between the hammer and -the point at which the hammer enters, with the firing pin, into the -breech face, would that stop the weapon from firing? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes and no. It is very possible that you can do it. And -it hurts, by the way, because the mainspring in this one--you can see -the indentation in my thumb--is a very strong mainspring. It would be -possible. You could put something in there. - -Now, the question is when you pull that object out, would there be -enough distance and enough force to set off the primer? - -That is quite a moot point, because you could grab the hammer and -recock it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Apart from that question, would the man's finger or -whatever object he stuck in there be firmly fixed for a second or two, -between the hammer and the breech face? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It could be. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would he feel the impact? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. He would definitely feel the impact--if he had a piece -of tissue of his hand in between. Now, if a piece of material, of -course, went between it which I don't know how it could happen--if you -were struggling over the gun, and he said he grabbed the gun--I don't -know how he could have anything except a portion of his hand, and I am -sure he would feel it if the trigger was pulled. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Finally, if he had just grasped the cylinder, and Oswald -had pulled back on the trigger, could you demonstrate the sound which -might have been heard? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; you can hold it, and you get a snapping sound--if -the gun is grabbed away forcefully, and he would be really grabbing -hard. So there could have been an attempt to shoot and a snap would be -heard. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The only thing which is unlikely is that the primer -would be dented on the misfire? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. You would not get any denting if the cylinder was held -and the gun was jerked forcibly out of Oswald's hands. You would hear -the snap, but you would get no mark on the primer whatsoever. - -The same thing he could hear if he jerked it out of his hands and he -accidentally, somehow, hit the hammer--you would still get a noise, a -snapping sound. But the firing pin would not come in contact with the -primer of the cartridge. - -Representative FORD. Because of the discussion we had a few minutes ago? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Using the diagram that was inserted as Exhibit 593. - -Mr. EISENBERG. One final question. Officer McDonald says in this -letter, "I then got a secure grip on the butt of the pistol." - -Now, would that grip in itself in any way interfere with the action of -the pistol--the revolver? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I don't know what he means by that. - -Mr. EISENBERG. If he means what he says, that is, if he got a secure -grip on the butt---- - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. If he got a secure grip on the butt, that would take -him away. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Take him away from what? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That would take him away from the cylinder. If you are -fighting over a weapon, the first thing is to get it off of you and -then get hold of the cylinder. And then you can get both hands on the -gun to jerk it away. That is what I would do. - -As I say, it is the way we are taught. You want to get the gun off of -you first, so you are not in direct line, and then go in and attempt to -get it away from the person. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, suppose the gun was pulled away from Oswald as -Oswald had his grip on the trigger, so that he could not get the -trigger through the complete cycle. Would there be a snapping noise -made? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Definitely. If you locked the cylinder and jerked it -away, you would get a snapping noise. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Suppose you did not lock the cylinder, but for some -reason or other the full trigger cycle was not gone through? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Then you would also get it. It would be difficult, but -you could get it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How hard do you have to pull on that trigger in order to -fire the weapon? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. For double action--that is, without cocking, it is -approximately 11 to 12 pounds, which is normal for this type of weapon. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, I handed you earlier four cartridge cases in -a plastic envelope marked Q-74, Q-75, Q-76, and Q-77, also marked -C47-C50. Are you familiar with these cartridge cases? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am. I have previously looked at them. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do they have your mark on them? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They do. Right on the side of each one, right there. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When did you receive these cartridge cases? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. These cartridge cases were received from the Dallas -office of the FBI on November 30, 1963. - -Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, I would like to state that these -cartridge cases were found in the immediate proximity of the site at -which Officer Tippit was killed. They were found on the ground near the -street where Officer Tippit was killed on November 22. - -Representative FORD. These are the ones that were found in the street -near the automobile? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Well, either in the street or in a lawn in front of a -private residence, or semiapartment house. - -Representative FORD. I see. In other words, they were possibly some of -those that were on the lawn in the front of 400? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes, sir; again, for the record only, since this witness -is unable to testify as to where they were picked up. The mechanism of -this revolver is such that the shells are not ejected until the user -decides to eject them--unlike a bolt-action rifle where the cartridge -must be ejected where you shoot from. - -Mr. Chairman, I would like to have these four cartridge cases -introduced into evidence as 594. - -Representative FORD. They may be admitted. - -(The articles referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 594, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cunningham, could you describe the make of -these cartridge cases? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Two of these cartridge cases are Remington-Peters .38 -Special cartridge cases. The other two cartridge cases are Western .38 -Special cartridge cases. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you examined earlier six bullets which I told you -had been--six cartridges which I told you had been taken from the -chamber of the revolver which we have been looking at. - -Those cartridges were divided into three Remington-Peters and three -Western, were they not? - -(At this point, Representative Boggs entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So that--or 50-50. So that the division is the -same, the division of the cartridge cases is the same, as between -Remington-Peters and Western, as the division of the cartridges -found--which I told you were found in the chamber? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you examine the cartridge cases in Exhibit 594 in an -attempt to determine whether they had been fired in Exhibit 143, the -revolver, to the exclusion of all other revolvers? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you tell us your conclusion? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. As a result of my examination, it is my opinion that -those four cartridge cases, Commission Exhibit 594, were fired in the -revolver, Commission Exhibit 143, to the exclusion of all other weapons. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When did you perform this examination, Mr. Cunningham? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. On November 30, 1963. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And how did you make the examination? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I first marked these cartridge cases upon receiving -them. There were four. I would like to state, first of all that -Special Agents Frazier and Killion also independently examined these -four cartridge cases, and made the same comparisons that I am going -to state. I am telling you what I found--although they independently -arrived at the same conclusion. - -The cartridge cases were first marked and examined for the presence of -any individual characteristic marks on these cartridge cases whereby it -would be possible to identify them as having been fired in a weapon. I -then test-fired Commission Exhibit 143, using similar ammunition, and -microscopically compared the four cartridge case--one at a time--that -is Commission Exhibit 594--with the tests obtained from the revolver, -Commission Exhibit 143. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I hand you here two cartridge cases, and ask you whether -you are familiar with these cartridge cases? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And can you describe these cartridge cases to us? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. One is a Western .38 Special cartridge case. The -other is a Winchester .38 Special cartridge case. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And how did you get possession of these cartridge cases? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. These were test-fired in Commission Exhibit No. 143, by -myself. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So these are the test cartridges you were referring to? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That was a portion of them; yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have these admitted as Commission -Exhibit 595? - -Representative FORD. They will be admitted. - -(The articles referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 595, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I also would like to state that we were test firing -Remington-Peters, also. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How many test cartridges were fired, Mr. Cunningham? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. To begin with, three. And we have since fired the -weapon many times. - -Representative BOGGS. How many cartridges were fired by Oswald? - -Mr. EISENBERG. We are going to get into that. This is a difficult -question which you are going to have to make a decision on. So I would -rather develop that slowly. - -I notice that one of the cartridge cases in Exhibit 595 is split on the -side, Mr. Cunningham. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Why is that? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is due to the oversized chambers of this revolver. -As I previously testified, the weapon was originally chambered for the -.38 S&W, which is a wider cartridge than .38 Special. And when a .38 -Special is fired in this particular weapon, the case form fits to the -shape of each chamber. And in one of those cartridges, the metal just -let go. Normally it does not; however this one particular case split -slightly. - -Representative FORD. Does that have any impact on the rest of the -operation? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir. As a matter of fact, I test-fired the weapon -originally, and I didn't even know it had split until I tried to eject -it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You mentioned before, by the way, that there had been no -misfires with this weapon. Approximately how many times was the weapon -fired altogether? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I would have no way of knowing exactly, but I imagine -we are approaching close to a hundred times by now. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And no misfires? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. And no misfires. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cunningham, did you take photographs of the -cartridge cases which you have just identified as having been fired -from 143, and the cartridge cases which are Commission Exhibit No. 595? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you make your identification on the basis of the -photographs or on the basis of your examination under the microscope? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. My conclusions were arrived at strictly on the basis -of my examinations. These photographs in no way entered into the -identification and are strictly for demonstrative purposes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you show us these photographs, Mr. Cunningham? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Let's take them one at a time, and let's introduce -them as exhibits, one at a time. I have here--you have given me five -photographs. Did you take each of these photographs? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. As a matter of fact; I did. I personally took these. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And these are photographs of what? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They are photographs of the individual characteristic -marks on the base and in the firing-pin impression on test cartridge -cases obtained from Oswald's revolver, and also the marks on the base -and in the firing-pin impression on the cartridge cases, Commission -Exhibit No. 594. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like these admitted, if you would, -as 596, 597, 598, 599, and 600. - -Representative FORD. They may be admitted. - -(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 596 -through 600, and received in evidence.) - -Representative FORD. Will the witness explain to the Commission what -they mean? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; he will. Did you also make a photograph of the -breech face of the weapon, Mr. Cunningham? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I did. I didn't take this photograph. I was present -when it was taken. I have compared the negative with the actual breech -face of Commission Exhibit 143, and I found it to be a true and -accurate reproduction. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you show us that photograph? May I have that -admitted as 601, Mr. Chairman? - -Representative FORD. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 601, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you show us the area of the revolver which -corresponds to the area shown in the photograph, Exhibit 601? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. The cylinder was first removed to facilitate -the photograph. That is very easily done by removing the forward -sideplate screw, which is just above the trigger, which allows the -crane to slide right out, and the cylinder removed. - -The photograph was taken from the right side, looking in toward the -firing-pin hole. - -Representative BOGGS. Just the way you are holding the revolver now? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; just the way I am holding it now. - -Representative BOGGS. With the cylinder removed? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. With the cylinder removed. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, there is a cylindrical-shaped object in the center -of that picture, Mr. Cunningham. Could you describe what that is--right -in the center of the picture? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is known by two different names. It is known as a -hammer-nose bushing, or a recoil block. It is--Smith and Wesson presses -this particular block in. It forms the hole through which the firing -pin comes out of the breech face. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is, the firing pin strikes the center of the -cartridge, or the primer, as it is called? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Which causes the cartridge to fire. Now, what is the -magnification of the photograph of the breech face? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Of the breech face, it is approximately 17 times. - -Mr. EISENBERG. There are a number of markings or lines on this breech -face. Are these the microscopic characteristics which reproduce on the -cartridge cases? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And are the microscopic characteristics of this breech -face individual to this weapon, to the exclusion of all other weapons? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They are. - -Mr. EISENBERG. This is your method of determining that a given -cartridge case has been fired from a given weapon? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The breech face marks, as well as the individual -imperfections in the firing pin. - -Representative BOGGS. Let me ask a very elementary question, the answer -to which I used to know years ago, but I have forgotten. Just exactly -what does the firing pin do? What happens after that strikes? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Well, it is easier to start with the cartridge itself. -The components of a cartridge are a bullet, a cartridge case, a primer -in the base of the cartridge case, and powder. - -Now, the primer is made out of a very soft metal that can be dented. -These primers at manufacture are filled with, basically, an explosive. -For instance, Remington-Peters cartridges have PETN, which is one of -Du Pont's explosives. RDX is used as one of the components of Western -cartridge cases, as well as lead styphnate, lead azides, and other -explosive materials. - -When the firing pin strikes, there is a small explosion. Fire is given -off---- - -Representative BOGGS. How does that bring about the explosion? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It is sensitive to detonation by a sharp blow. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is, the primer is sensitive? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; it is an explosive. To differentiate from the -powder, which is not explosive. Powder burns. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, I have taken Commission Exhibit No. 591, which -consists of an unfired cartridge, and there is a round circle in the -middle of the base of that cartridge. Is that the primer? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. That is actually a separate entity that has been -pressed into a hole in the base of the cartridge case. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And that is more sensitive to shock than the powder in -the cartridge case itself? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. Powder is relatively insensitive. You don't set -off powder by a blow. - -Mr. EISENBERG. But the primer is quite sensitive? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is normally. I am talking about a normal blow. -The primer is very sensitive. I just named a few of the components, -but there are many other compounds in priming mixtures, which are -considered secret by each company. But I know that they are explosive -mixtures. And the actual striking of the firing pin--with enough -force--causes a small detonation to occur. The fire given off, goes -through holes in the base, and into where the powder is, and starts the -powder burning. It is the gases that are given off when powder burns, -which actually cause the bullet to move forward--the pressure builds up -behind it, and the bullet goes forward. - -Representative BOGGS. That is a very good explanation. Thank you. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, I wonder whether you could review the -pictures with us, and discuss some of the markings which you found in -those pictures that led you to decide that the cartridge cases shown -therein have been fired in the revolver we have been discussing. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. The first photograph is a photograph of the -breech-face marks, the individual characteristic marks remaining on -test cartridge cases obtained from the revolver, and on the C-50 -cartridge case that was recovered from the scene. C-50 is on the left. -C-15 is on the right. And the hairline, the magnified hairline down the -center separates the two cartridge cases. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, is the invariable procedure to put the test -cartridge on the right and the suspect cartridge on the left? Or at -least is that your standard procedure? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I usually put the suspect on the left. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Well, in the photographs at any rate, in all the -photographs we are going to see, the test cartridge is on the right, -and the suspect cartridge is on the left? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Usually. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And what is the magnification of this photograph? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It is approximately 91 times. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you go on, please? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. On the left you will see the stamping, "SP", which -is in the cartridge case itself. And over here next to the hairline you -will see the individual characteristic marks. And you will see similar -marks continuing on the other side of the hairline. - -On the C-15, the revolver side, you will see a dark portion running -vertically down through. That is the space that the Congressman was -asking about--how it fits the primer. That is the small space at the -top where the primer fits into the base of the cartridge. And over here -to the right of that dark mark you will see a lighter colored object -with more individual characteristic marks, that is actually the primer, -the individual characteristic marks on the primer of the test cartridge -case. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, as I understand it, in effect this picture can -be viewed as a composite cartridge? That is, the picture on the left -begins where the picture on the right ends, in terms of position on the -cartridge case? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. In essence; yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And the point of the picture is to show that when you -make this composite, the lines on each case show up as if there were no -composite at all, but as if they were simply one case, because they are -so close together in microscopic markings? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; in proximity. And they are brought together. - -Representative BOGGS. And so similar? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. - -Representative BOGGS. What is the magnification again? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is approximately 91 times. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Are there any dissimilarities on the two--on the test -and the suspect cartridge cases, Mr. Cunningham? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; there are always dissimilarities. However, -the similarities so outweigh the dissimilarities that it is an -identification. If there are no dissimilarities, I would be suspicious -that it would be faked--using the same photograph and just cut and put -together. - -There are always dissimilarities. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain why there are always dissimilarities -when the two cartridge cases are fired in the very same weapon? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The metal is different; one cartridge case is slightly -harder than another; for some reason the cartridge case wasn't driven -back, upon firing, into the breech face exactly the same way. In other -words, these marks are reproducing, but you don't get exactly the same -hit. It would not be possible to get exactly the same hit time after -time with different cartridge cases. - -Representative FORD. What ratio of similarities and dissimilarities do -you have to have? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. There is no ratio. Based upon the examiner's training -and experience, he comes to the conclusion that a particular cartridge -case or bullet has been fired from a particular weapon. As in this -photograph, you can see the dissimilarity is very slight. These are -excellent marks. - -Representative FORD. There was never any doubt in your mind, then? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. None whatsoever. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You say these are particularly strong marks? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. These are very, very, good marks. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, these marks are on the brass, so to speak, of the -cartridge case, rather than in the primer? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; that is correct. Actually, it is brass, it is -nickelplated brass. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is that unusual, to be able to pick up such strong marks -in the brass as opposed to the primer of the cartridge case? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It is not really unusual; no. It depends upon the -particular weapon. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you also examine the microscopic markings on the -primer? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And you found what? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I could identify the weapon on the basis of the -imperfections, individual characteristic marks, in the firing-pin -impression. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The firing-pin impression. And what about the area of -the primer around the firing-pin impression? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In other words, each of these three areas--the brass, -the primer, and the firing-pin impression--carries individually -characteristic microscopic marks which would be the basis of -identification? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, you cannot make a flat statement. - -Mr. EISENBERG. No; in this case. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. In this particular case, I knew at the time I was -examining it, all of the firing-pin impressions were excellent, and -some portions of the breech-face marks were. But you cannot say they -will mark in exactly the same place, due to the fact that these cases -will mark in different areas, they are different cartridges, they have -been fired at a different time. You will get good areas, and then in -another area your marks will not be sufficient. In other words, it is -just the way the cartridge case was driven back at the time of the -explosion in the primer, and the bullet is fired. - -They can hit slightly different, hit deeper on one side, be lighter -on the other. When a primer is set in a little bit deeper, it will -not pick up these marks on the primer part, whereas the firing-pin -impression can be excellent--one portion of the case will be excellent. -But each one is a different examination. And many times they will mark -in different places. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you show us the next photograph? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. This is Commission document No. 597. This is -a photograph, photomicrograph, rather, of the breech face marks on two -cartridge cases. The one on the left is C-49, which is our number C-49, -and the one on the right of the hairline is a test cartridge case from -this revolver. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What is the magnification? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. This one was approximately 120 times. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is the magnification equal on both sides? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It is. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is that true of all the pictures you are showing us -today? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. The negative is taken at exactly the same -time. You are photographing through a single eyepiece, with a focusable -hairline down the middle, whatever is on both stages of your comparison -microscope. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you turn that picture around again? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. These marking are also on the brass, or outside of the -primer? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And again it is a sort of a composite photograph? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, these markings seem a little less distinct than the -others. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It is in a different area. On this particular case, the -marks are excellent. You can see down in here some nice fine marks, and -then the heavier marks coming across there. They are good marks. - -Representative FORD. Could you point out, as you look at the -photograph, what you consider good similarities, which would help you -in the identification? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. Now, this is not the only point of -similarity. These strictly demonstrate the type of marks. There are -many more marks on these cartridge cases, all over the base of the -cartridge cases, as well as in the firing-pin impressions. But Mr. -Eisenberg asked that we have a photograph to demonstrate the type of -marks on each particular cartridge case. - -Representative FORD. This is only illustrative, then? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. My identification was not based on -this picture. It was based on my complete microscopic examination -and comparison of test cartridge cases from the revolver with this -particular cartridge case. - -Representative FORD. Could you show me the similarities? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. You see, you have your large--it is slightly out -of focus up towards this end---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. Excuse me, as you demonstrate this, could you mark with -circles and with a number what you are talking about, so when the -record is looked at it is clear what you are talking about? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. All right--up here, near the top, you will find a very -deep ridge, which I will mark "1." As you are coming down, you will -find another real deep ridge, which I will mark "2." - -When you consider this is 120 times, this is actually quite close -together, except it has been magnified--you have a set of marks -resembling "railroad tracks," which I will mark "3." - -You will find over here--you go down to your next step. There are -similarities in between there. The next big set of "railroad tracks" I -will mark "4." - -Then you move down, and you will find another similarity, four nice -marks down near the bottom. This whole area is similar. You are going -out of focus, but you can see these "railroad tracks." They are running -along very nicely, and that is being marked "No. 5." - -The next photograph is a photograph--on the left of the hairline---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. What Commission exhibit is that? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No. 598. - -On the left of the hairline is our number C-47, the cartridge case. On -the right is a test from the C-15 revolver, which is Commission Exhibit -143. These also are breech-face marks in the base of the cartridge -cases. - -On the right you can see the space between the primer and the base of -the cartridge case, and also the individual characteristic marks in the -primer. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What is the magnification? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. This is approximately 123-1/2 times. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Congressman Ford, would you care for a discussion of -this? - -Representative FORD. No. The one previously gave the basis. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Actually, this seems to be a slightly larger area. You -have again the same "railroad tracks," all up and down, going across -the two cartridge cases. - -Representative FORD. To the layman that seems even more---- - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Demonstrative, yes. I don't know if you saw the -photographs of the cartridge cases in the rifle, the assassination -rifle. Those marks are just as distinctive as the more demonstrative -marks in this particular breech face. But to a trained examiner, they -stand out. They are harder to see than those on these particular -photographs. And even in these photographs, the photograph you were -asking me, they were not quite as vivid as they are on this photograph. - -But there, again, it goes back to what I told you--each cartridge case -will strike the breech face in a slightly different way, and you don't -get complete similarity. - -Mr. EISENBERG. To illustrate your point, Mr. Cunningham, I hand you -Commission Exhibit 565, which is a photograph, which was explained -yesterday, of the cartridge case fired in the rifle, and a test -cartridge. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, this demonstrates it very well. - -This is the very rough surface on the bolt of the assassination rifle. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The bolt face? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; the bolt face, and it is just as distinctive as -these striae on my photographs of the breech-face marks of the revolver. - -Mr. EISENBERG. By "striae" you mean lines? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; just lines. But it is more difficult to see, due -to the character of these marks--even though one type of mark is just -as characteristic as the other type. - -Mr. EISENBERG. As I understand your testimony, to the trained observer -the photograph shown--the cartridges shown in the photographs on 565 -can be as easily identified with each other as the cartridges shown on, -let's say, 598? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. But to the layman it is easier to see the similarities -on 598, with its striae, than 565 with its grosser imperfections? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; due to the type of marks on each of the -cartridge cases, one is easier for the layman to see. - -The next photograph is Commission document No. 599. On the left of the -hairline is our number C-48, the cartridge case. On the right is the -test cartridge case from Oswald's revolver. - -Now, here you asked about what happens--somebody asked what happens -on the other side. Here you have the other side. In this particular -cartridge case---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is the other half of the cartridge case? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. In other words, you are seeing the primer, -the space between the primer and the brass on the cartridge case -itself--on the questioned cartridge case this time--and the base of -the cartridge case of the test is on the right. It looks like it is -one. It is just the opposite side of the cartridge case from the other -photographs. - -In other words, you take the photograph of the most demonstrative -marks--which look real good, naturally. The examination is of all the -marks. That is the big difference. And this time you will see--it is -very demonstrative--on each side of the hairline, a great deal of -similarity between these marks. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And the magnification here? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It is approximately 96 times. - -Mr. RHYNE. Why do you vary the magnification? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The magnification of every photograph you take, sir, -depends on the length of the bellows of the camera. The microscope -will have a set magnification. But each time that you focus the -length of the bellows can change, which will increase or decrease the -magnification. Also with some photographs you mask off areas which are -out of focus. You certainly would not want to print a whole negative -where you have distortion. You bring into focus one small portion of -the surface of that bullet. - -If, say, one surface of the bullet is slightly flattened and the other -surface is rounded--the rounded surface will be going out of focus much -faster than the flattened side, and it would be very confusing. That is -the type of thing. You mask differently. - -Then when you have the negatives enlarged, you can enlarge one negative -more than you do the other. So it can be based either on the length of -the bellows, or on the amount you have enlarged it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is that all the photographs? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, there is one more. - -This photograph is a photograph of the firing-pin impression of the -C-49 cartridge case, and the firing-pin impression on the test from -Oswald's revolver, and this is Commission document 600. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And the magnification? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. 120 times, approximately. - -Now, here you have very distinctive marks, but it is much more -difficult for a layman to pick them out. That is the reason I have -circled these marks and numbered them, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, on each side -of the hairline. On the left is C-49, and on the right is the cartridge -case obtained from C-143. - -You have this very large, very distinctive imperfection. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You are pointing to circle number 1? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. In number 1. Also, in number 2, it looks like a little -set of railroad tracks, and this one with the same shape coming down -through. You can see this little piece and this little piece. Over here -you have a real small "railroad track." - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is number 3? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is number 3. And it looks like a little hump or -bump, and that is very distinctive. - -There is a slight overlapping here, but you can see it is sort of a =V= -shape--in number 4, very distinctive. Down here you have a =Z= line -with a line through it, number 6. I only brought those out to show six -of the similarities. If you go through you can pick out places in the -firing-pin impressions, that are similar, by yourself. - -Mr. EISENBERG. On the top of each of these photos, C-49 and C-15, there -is a large comma-shaped indentation, or comma-shaped mark. What is that -caused by, Mr. Cunningham? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is caused by a very large imperfection--a very -distinctive imperfection in the firing pin itself. And here it is. - -Here I am looking at Commission document 601, the breech face and -firing pin. If you will look at the firing pin in this photograph, you -will see over on this side, this very large imperfection. It is like -a facet--it is a flattened side. It shows up in the photograph of the -firing pin. - -It is indented--since it is missing from the firing pin, it will show -as a flattened area in the firing-pin impression. In other words, what -is concave on the firing pin itself, will be convex in the firing-pin -impression. - -Mr. EISENBERG. If there are no further questions on the cartridge -cases, I will move on to the bullets. - -Representative FORD. Mr. Boggs? - -Representative BOGGS. Just one question. What you are saying is that -there is no doubt about the fact that the cartridges that you examined -came from this revolver? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. - -Representative BOGGS. And, of course, there is no question about the -fact that this was Mr. Oswald's revolver. Is that so? - -Mr. EISENBERG. That will be proved, I hope, before the end of the -hearings. This witness cannot himself testify. - -Representative BOGGS. I understand that. I am asking you. - -Mr. EISENBERG. There is no question, I don't think, about that. That -will be the subject of testimony. - -Representative BOGGS. I know--we are not following the exact rules of -evidence around here. - -Mr. EISENBERG. We will connect it up. - -Representative BOGGS. In that connection--how many bullets were -recovered? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Four were recovered from the body of the officer. But as -you will see from the testimony which we will get into right now, that -doesn't mean four shots were fired, because there is a slight problem -here. I would rather have the witness develop it. - -Representative BOGGS. You are being very mysterious now, but it is all -right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, I hand you four bullets in plastic cases -marked C-251, C-252, Q-13, and C-253, which have also certain other -markings on them, and I ask you if you are familiar with these bullets. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Are your marks on these bullets? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, they are. - -Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, I would like to state these four bullets -were recovered from the body of Officer Tippit. - -When did you receive these bullets, Mr. Cunningham? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The Q-13 bullet was delivered to the Laboratory the -first time on the morning of November 23d, and it was delivered to the -Laboratory by Special Agent Vincent Drain of the Dallas office of the -FBI. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And the remaining bullets? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. By the way, it was returned to Dallas, and then it was -returned to the Laboratory, delivered again by Special Agent Vincent -Drain, of the Dallas office, also, Special Agent Warren De Brueys. They -delivered our Q-13 a second time on November 27th. - -Representative FORD. When you say "our," what do you mean by "our"? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. In other words, to facilitate reporting in the -Laboratory, we usually give these items a Q or a K number. A Q number -is a questioned item, like a bullet from a body, and a known is a gun, -the K is a known, like a weapon. - -That is for reporting purposes. But since this case began, we have so -much evidence, and we have received so much evidence, it was considered -practical to reassign a C number by us--like Mr. Eisenberg said, they -are C-253, C-262, and C-251. They also have a Q number. Q-13 is C-13. -That is the reason why I said "our" Q-13. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When did you examine Q-13, Mr. Cunningham? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. November 23d, the first time. That was when I made my -examination. It was returned on the other date. But it was examined on -11-23. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Q-13 has in it a brass colored object, as well as a -bullet--that is, the box containing Q-13, your Q-13. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. That was identified as the button--the -button--from the coat of Officer Tippit. The bullet struck that button -and when the bullet was removed from the body, the button was also -removed. - -Representative BOGGS. Went right in? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. I have no first-hand knowledge. But that is -what it was identified as. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like these four bullets admitted -as 602, 603, 604, and 605. - -Representative FORD. They will be admitted. - -(The articles referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 602 -through 605, and received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. When did you receive what are now marked 603, 604, and -605, Mr. Cunningham? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They were received in the FBI Laboratory on March 16th -of this year, and they were submitted to the Laboratory by the Dallas -office of the FBI. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When were they examined? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They were examined on March 17, 1964. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain the great time difference between -the receipt and examination of the first bullet and the receipt and -examination of the last three bullets? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. At your request, you asked us to postpone the -examination of these three bullets in order to facilitate other -examinations you wished more expedited than the examinations of these -bullets. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now you are explaining the time between the receipt and -the examination? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, can you explain why these three bullets---- - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Oh, between the first submission and the second? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; between the submission of the first bullet, and the -submission to you of the second three bullets. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Well, it is my understanding the first bullet -was turned over to the FBI office in Dallas by the Dallas Police -Department. They reportedly said this was the only bullet that was -recovered, or that they had. Later at the request of this Commission, -we went back to the Dallas Police Department and found in their files -that they actually had three other bullets. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, did you examine these four bullets to determine -whether they had been fired in the revolver, Exhibit No. 143, to the -exclusion of all other weapons? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am sorry. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you examine the four bullets which have just been -marked into evidence to determine whether those four bullets had been -fired in the revolver, No. 143? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And can you give us your results, your conclusions? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -First of all, Commission Exhibit 602, which is our Q-13 bullet, I found -to be a .38 Special, copper-coated lead bullet of Western-Winchester -manufacture which had been fired from a barrel having five lands and -grooves, right twist. I also found the other three bullets---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. 603---- - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. 603, 604, and 605, Commission Exhibits, which are -C-253, C-252, and C-251, respectively. I found that 251 and C-253---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you give us the Commission numbers? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Commission Exhibits 605, 603, they, too, were .38 -Special copper-coated lead bullets of Winchester-Western manufacture, -which had been fired from a barrel having five lands and grooves, right -twist. - -The grooves in the barrel ran in a right-hand direction, a right twist. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That accounts for three bullets. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. - -And Commission Exhibit 604, which is C-252, is a .38 Special -Remington-Peters lead bullet, which has been fired from a barrel having -five lands and grooves, right twist. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Winchester-Western, you say? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; that is Remington---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. Let's go over that. - -We have 603---- - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. 602, 603, and 605 are your copper-coated lead bullets -of Winchester-Western manufacture. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And 604? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. And 604 is a Remington-Peters lead bullet. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, were you able to determine whether those bullets -have been fired in this weapon? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No; I was not. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain why? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -First of all, Commission Exhibit No. 602 was too mutilated. There were -not sufficient microscopic marks remaining on the surface of this -bullet, due to the mutilation, to determine whether or not it had been -fired from this weapon. - -However, Commission Exhibits 603, 604, and 605 do bear microscopic -marks for comparison purposes, but it was not possible from an -examination and comparison of these bullets to determine whether or not -they had been fired--these bullets themselves--had been fired from one -weapon, or whether or not they had been fired from Oswald's revolver. - -Further, it was not possible, using .38 Special ammunition, to -determine whether or not consecutive test bullets obtained from this -revolver had been fired in this weapon. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have an opinion as to why it was impossible to -make either type of determination? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; this weapon, using .38 Special bullets, was -not producing marks consistent with each other. Each time it was fired, -the bullet would seem to pass down the barrel in a different way, -which could be due to the slightly undersized bullets in the oversized -.38 S&W barrel. It would cause an erratic passage down the barrel, -and thereby, cause inconsistent individual characteristic marks to be -impressed or scratched into the surface of the bullets. - -Representative FORD. When you say this weapon, will you identify what -you mean by "this weapon"? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. This particular revolver, Commission Exhibit 143. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So this brings us back to your earlier testimony, that -the gun had been rechambered for a .38 Special, which is slightly -smaller in one respect than the .38 S&W, but it had not been rebarreled -for the .38 Special? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. - -The original .38 Smith and Wesson barrel is still on the weapon. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So that the .38 Special, when fired in that gun, might -wobble slightly as it passes through the barrel? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I don't know if wobble is the correct word. But as -the bullet is passing down this shortened .38 barrel, we are probably -getting an erratic passage, so the marks won't reproduce. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is it possible to say that the bullets were not fired -from this weapon, No. 143? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, it is not; since the rifling characteristics of -Commission Exhibit 143--this revolver--are the same as those present on -the four bullets. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you said that there were three bullets of -Winchester-Western manufacture, those are 602, 603, and 605, and one -bullet of R.-P. manufacture. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. However, as to the cartridge cases, Exhibit 594, you -told us there were two R.-P. cartridge cases and two Western cartridge -cases. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So that the recovered cartridge cases, there is one more -recovered R.-P. cartridge case than there was recovered bullet? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And as to the bullets, there is one more recovered -Winchester-Western bullet than there is Winchester-Western cartridges? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. - -Representative BOGGS. How would you account for that? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The possibility exists that one bullet is missing. -Also, they may not have found one of the cartridge cases. - -Representative BOGGS. Are you able to match the bullet with the -cartridge case? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It is not possible. - -Representative BOGGS. So that while you can establish the fact that the -cartridge case, the four that we have, were fired in that gun---- - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Representative BOGGS. You cannot establish the fact that the bullets -were fired in that gun? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. - -Representative BOGGS. And you cannot--having the cartridge case and the -bullet--you cannot match them up? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, you cannot. - -Representative BOGGS. There is no way to do it? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No; other than what I have said. In other words, you -can tell manufacture. But there is no way of--that I know of--of -connecting or identifying a particular bullet having been loaded into a -particular cartridge case. - -Representative BOGGS. But there is no doubt about the fact that the -four cartridge cases came from firing in that weapon? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They were fired in that weapon to the exclusion of all -other weapons. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, when you said before that you would be missing a -bullet--under the explanation you gave--would you be missing both a -bullet and a cartridge case? - -Representative BOGGS. Excuse me, before you answer that question. -What testimony have we developed with reference to this delay in the -transmission of these bullets to either the FBI or to the Commission? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Just what you have heard. Would you like to have it -developed further? - -Representative BOGGS. Well, is this within his competence? - -Mr. EISENBERG. I do not think so. I can state for the record myself -that about 2 weeks ago I requested--I made a request of Mr. Conrad, -who is the Assistant Director in charge of the FBI Laboratory--that -the three Tippit bullets which had not theretofore been examined, be -examined. At that point they had not yet been sent from the Dallas -Police to the FBI, and no request had apparently been made for them. - -Representative BOGGS. Well, the FBI obtained one almost immediately. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. - -Representative BOGGS. And then there was how long a delay before the -other three? - -Mr. EISENBERG. You have the dates there, Mr. Cunningham? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The date was--we obtained the first one on November 23, -1963, and then---- - -Representative BOGGS. The day after the killing of Officer Tippit? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; it was delivered at the same time as all the other -material. And then it was returned November 17, 1963. - -As far as the FBI is concerned, sir, we have no jurisdiction in that -case. We were doing the lab work for the Dallas Police Department, but -in the investigation of the death of Officer Tippit we do not have -jurisdiction. - -Representative BOGGS. How did the Commission ascertain that these -additional bullets were there? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Well, upon review of the underlying materials, it -developed that while one bullet had been taken out of Officer Tippit as -soon as he got to the hospital, which was apparently the first bullet, -the one examined November 23, three further bullets were taken out at -the autopsy. And since we knew that only one bullet had been examined -by the FBI, and since we knew at that point that three further bullets -had been taken out, we asked that those three further bullets be -examined. - -Representative BOGGS. What proof do you have though that these are the -bullets? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Well, again, we will have to connect it up at a -subsequent time. They were turned over to the FBI Dallas Office, were -they, Mr. Cunningham? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. - -Representative BOGGS. I am talking about the three bullets now, not the -first bullet. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; turned over to the FBI Dallas Office by the Dallas -Police. Now, we will have to connect up by deposition or testimony -before the Commission on the origin of those bullets, and proof is not -in the record now, as it is not in the case of many of these items, as -to origin. However, I have no doubt that we will be able to connect it -up and put it all in the record. - -Representative BOGGS. Has there been any inquiry made as to why there -was this delay in removing the other three bullets to the FBI? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Well, as Mr. Cunningham stated, I was told since this -was not within the jurisdiction of the FBI, they would only examine -evidence which was given to them. And since it had not been given to -them, they had not examined it. - -When I asked for it, there was a formal request made for them, and they -made their examination at that point. - -Is that your understanding, Mr. Cunningham? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct, sir. In other words, we will do -laboratory examinations for any duly constituted law-enforcement agency -upon request. And we did it in this case. We offer our facilities -but do not go out and ask for work. Since we have no jurisdiction -in the killing of Officer Tippit, we would make no investigation -and therefore, we would have no reason to go and ask for additional -bullets, until of course this Commission asked us to, and then we did -on behalf of the Commission. - -Representative BOGGS. Do you have any theory, and this is just a -theory, you understand, as to this discrepancy in these results as -compared to the cartridge cases? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Inasmuch as there are three Western bullets, you would -be missing one Western cartridge case, and one Remington bullet. You -are missing one of each. He could have missed one of the shots. I do -not know how many times he actually fired the weapon. But he could have -missed once. It is very possible that he could have. And depending -on the angle, it would be very difficult to find that bullet unless -it struck some close intervening object. Also I have no first-hand -information, again, but I believe that some neighbor turned in these -cartridge cases to the Dallas Police Department. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I believe that is correct. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. You have received a letter from the Dallas office of -the FBI just recently, I believe, setting forth that information. - -Representative BOGGS. That would account for one. There would still be -another one, would there not? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. There would be just one cartridge case missing. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is there any other logical theory which could explain -the results? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Of course, he could have had an empty cartridge case -remaining in the weapon at the time he fired it. Then he would only -have fired four shots, and then a bullet is still unaccounted for. That -would explain it also. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In other words, if he had an unejected R-P cartridge -case? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No--a Western. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You mean an unejected Western cartridge case? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And he fired two Winchester and two R-P bullets--now in -that case--and, if he then ejected he would get three Winchester and -two R-P bullets, would he not--that is, cartridge case--if he had an -extra cartridge case? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. If he had an extra cartridge case---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. He would get five cartridge cases? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. In other words, if he had an extra cartridge case, say -a Remington---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. I was right the first time. Suppose he has an extra -Remington? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Well, then you would have lost a Western. If he fires -four times? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. And he has the fifth one in. You would still have to -have three Western cartridges loaded in and one Remington cartridge. - -Mr. EISENBERG. But then---- - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Which is four. - -Mr. EISENBERG. But then you only have to lose one cartridge case. You -do not have to lose a bullet and a cartridge case. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is right. You do have to lose one case. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And the case you lose would be a Western case? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. Western. - -Representative FORD. Is it unusual to have a mixture of this kind in a -pistol? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. Usually they are all the same brand. Although -if you have two boxes--.38 Special cartridges come in boxes of 50. And -you will see hand-loaders once in a while. By the way, we found no -indication that they had been hand loaded. - -Representative BOGGS. Is this a police weapon as well? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; and a very good one. Not in that particular -caliber. In other words, the caliber---- - -Representative BOGGS. That is what I meant. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. .38 S&W is not a popular cartridge in this country. The -.38 Special is. - -Representative BOGGS. .38 Special is? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. That cartridge. - -Representative BOGGS. With police forces? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. We use it. Most of your larger police forces use the -.38 Special. It is a better cartridge. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Getting back to the example we were using before as a -second possible theory--the cartridge case that would be lost would be -a Western case, I believe actually? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, it would be a Western case. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, also getting back to a subject we were discussing, -I will quote in part from a letter from Mr. Hoover to Mr. Rankin dated -March 31, 1964. - -"On March 30, 1964, Mr. Eisenberg requested that the Dallas Police -Department be contacted to determine whether any additional cartridge -cases had been recovered." And I say parenthetically I mean in addition -to the four which we have seen here. - -"On March 30, 1964, Lieutenant Carl Day, Dallas Police Department, -advised the Dallas office of this Bureau that all of the cartridge -cases and bullets recovered had been previously submitted to the FBI." - -You mentioned or discussed the question of hand loading. Can you -describe what you mean by hand loading? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Hand loading is nothing more than taking components and -by means of a press you make your own cartridges. You put them together. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In this process, would you be able to take a bullet of -one manufacturer and a cartridge case of another? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You said that you found no evidence that that had been -done in this case? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. We found no sizing marks on the cartridge cases, which -after the first time it has been fired, you many times have to resize -it, due to the fact that one chamber can be too large. They always -full-length resize, for in a police department many officers will be -using this ammunition. You might not resize if one were only firing -them in one gun. In other words, you are limiting the chambers of your -cylinder that they will fit into. But normally they are full-length -resized, and from this you get these sizing marks. Actually they are -scrape marks from the sizing die. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In a hand-loading operation, is the equipment needed -bulky or small? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It is quite bulky. - -Mr. EISENBERG. If Oswald had hand-loading equipment, would it have been -likely to have been turned up among his personal effects? Could it be -easily missed? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. You could not miss it; no, sir. - -Representative FORD. When you say bulky---- - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. A "C" press or an "O" press will stand anywhere from -10 to 12 inches high with a 2-foot handle. Your turret-type would run -almost a foot and a half high above the table. And they are all made -very heavy because of your full-length resizing--not only on your -small revolver cartridges, but for all your hunting cartridges--that -takes great pressure. They are heavy duty. And you need quite a bit of -equipment. Most of the time there will be a case trimmer, your complete -press--there is a primer press, and then you have to have dies for the -cartridge you are loading--your sizing dies and your bullet dies that -you use to press the bullet into the cartridge case. Then there are all -sorts of sundry equipment that go along with hand loading--your powder -measurer, which is usually quite large if it is one that will do it -volumetrically. True, you can have a balance and weigh out a particular -amount for each one, but it takes an awful lot of time. Normally they -are volumetric powder measures. You tip it and it puts a certain amount -of powder into the cartridge case. - -Representative FORD. Is it expensive equipment to buy? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Originally, yes. Comparatively so. A good press, I -think you can buy one anywhere from $29 to over $100. You will have -to invest, I would say, $150 to have a fairly good outfit. But over -the years it is a cheap investment. Instead of paying $2.80 a box, or -$2.85 a box, you are turning out cartridges, once you have your brass, -for--even rifle, hunting cartridges--for about 7 cents, and lead bullet -cartridges down to around 3 cents apiece. - -Representative FORD. $2.80 a box? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I have the component list here from Western. I do not -have the cost per box of ammunition, but it can run anywhere from -$2.25 all the way up to $6 to $8 for some of your larger hunting rifle -cartridges--boxes of 20 in hunting ammunition, boxes of 50 in your -revolver and pistol ammunition. - -Even buying components, it is comparatively cheap. If you buy them -by the hundred, and they will run, for instance the .38 Special, -158 grain lead bullets per hundred, only $2.80, and that is for -original components. If you have the brass, your powder cost is -negligible--probably a penny a cartridge, half a cent a cartridge for a -.38 Special. So it saves you so much money if you are a target shooter, -for instance, it is advantageous to do it if you like to shoot. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is that a skilled operation, hand loading? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Basically, no. Once you have the basic--if you do any -reading on it, and you take your time, and are very careful, it is not -a difficult operation at all. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, would a---- - -Representative BOGGS. How are these cartridges loaded mechanically--not -like this hand loading. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It is all done on large machines. They buy their lead, -for instance, in rods. They ask for a lead alloy of a certain hardness. -Then these machines--they feed in the rods in the bullet-making -machines, and they cut them off to length. They have different diameter -rods. For a .38 the rod diameter would be approximately .357" or .358". -Then this machine comes down in a swaging operation. - -Another machine puts the knurling around--forming the lubricating -grooves, and another groove. They tumble out as fast as the machine can -run. - -Then you have your case formation. They buy their cases--they look like -little cups of copper. Actually it is a copper alloy. And then you go -through a drawing process, and then an annealing, and a drawing and -annealing, and a drawing and annealing of these brass cases. And then -once you get them to approximate length, you full-size them and form -the cases. The machine keeps tumbling them out. - -And a small lathe--as these cases are going around--turns the case -and puts in the extraction groove--all automatically. Another machine -comes up from the bottom and puts the head stamp in. Another one is a -drilling operation, and it puts in the holes for the primer and also -the flash holes into the case. All done automatically. And they tumble -into a big box. - -Then they take those components and they put them on the line. The -primers are all done by hand, except for shotgun primers at Western. - -There are girls sitting at these presses who do 50 or 100 at a time. -They put guide plates into the machine in which the girls put the -primers. They are automatically loaded. All the primers are put in by -hand, in essence. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, what is the advantage of hand loading in -terms of cost, if you do not have your own shells to start with? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. There again your initial cost is fairly expensive. -For instance, for the .38 Special, unprimed cases, the list price per -hundred last year, was $4.60 a hundred. The primed cost $5. The primers -cost 20 cents---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. So there is a saving even if you do not provide your own -shells? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Oh, yes--and the bullets would cost---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. How many primers? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. One hundred. And 158 grain lead, .38 Special bullets -are $2.80. So $7.80 plus $2.00 worth of powder and you are in business. - -Mr. EISENBERG. For $9.80? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And how much would the bullets cost you if you bought -them commercially already prepared? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I think it is $2.50 per 50. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Well, that is more. $2.25 per 50, did you say? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. $2.85? I never buy any ammunition of that type. I do -not know. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So for a hundred that would be $5.90. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I would say it is closer to $8 per hundred for .38 -Special. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So it is cheaper to buy them that way than to buy the -components? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It is cheaper to buy your components when you do not -have to buy the cartridge cases. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Well, now, is it possible that a gunsmith would buy -the components, including new cases, and reload together a case from -Western-Winchester and a bullet from Remington-Peters? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I don't think that a gunsmith would buy the new cases. -That is what I was saying. For instance, used .30-.06 brass, right here -in town--you can buy it locally. You can buy National Match Cases, -which are excellent brass. I think they are a nickel a piece; $5 a -hundred. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Are they as good as the new cases? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They are once-fired cases. They are excellent. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So in you opinion does the possibility that this -discrepancy in bullets and cartridge cases can be explained in terms of -reloading make much sense? Does it have a high degree of probability or -a low degree of probability, would you think? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am sorry. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would you think it probable or improbable, in light -of all your testimony, that the discrepancy between the number of -recovered bullets and the number of recovered cartridge cases can be -explained in terms of a reloading operation of some kind, or hand -loading? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; I do not. It is improbable, because we found -no indication of any reloading operation. And in an examination of -all the cartridges that we had examined, there was no indication of -a reloading operation on those. They looked like factory bullets and -factory cases. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And if you were going to reload, you would use used -cartridges rather than new ones? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. You would use used brass, because you usually can pick -it up at ranges and places like that. You would not even have to buy it. - -Representative BOGGS. By that you mean you would use these? (Referring -to Commission Exhibit No. 595.) - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; well--these would be very difficult--in other - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; well--these would be very difficult on -account of the case. They would be hard to resize on account of the -fact the case is pushed out due to the rechambering. But they could be -used; yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When you say there is no indication, would there be an -indication if they were resized? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; usually--unless the sizing die was extremely -clean--usually you will get your resizing marks from the resizing die. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And in particular you say the cartridge cases from this -particular weapon show a substantial amount of bulge? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They do. As you brought to my attention, there is a -crack in the one case. I would not care to use this type of brass if -I were hand loading. I would find brass that had been fired in a .38 -Special. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, by the way, the various cartridge cases, the four -cartridge cases and four bullets that you have identified, and that you -obtained from your Dallas Office and other sources, that is, Exhibits -594 and 602, 603, 604, and 605, are these now in the same condition as -they were when you originally got them? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Substantially. A small sample was taken off the noise -which was run spectrographically. But the major portions of all these -bullets are the same as when they were received in the laboratory. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you clean them in any way or alter them? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; we had to clean them. They were removed from the -body and were bloody. You could not see the surfaces. We had to put -them in haemo-sol, which is nothing more than a material that will take -out the blood. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is that true of all four bullets? That is true of the -last three bullets as well as the original bullet? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Q-13 was cleaned of blood tissue in haemo-sol. I do not -think I have anything in the notes that the last three were cleaned at -all. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would that indicate they were not cleaned? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I would say so, because I would have put it down. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Was the substance removed from the first bullet tested -to see whether it was blood, or did you just assume it was blood? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No examination was made of it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Was there any dirt on the cartridge case? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I don't remember any. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would your notes show if you had cleaned it up? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And they do not show any cleaning up? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You said these revolver bullets were sold in boxes of -how many? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Fifty. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Will a storekeeper, a gun man who sells bullets, sell -less than 50 usually, in your experience? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Maybe some small outfit would. But I just don't know of -any around here that will. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Oswald was found with two types of ammunition, two -makes of .38 Special cartridges. Would you infer than that---- - -Representative BOGGS. What two types? - -Mr. EISENBERG. R.-P., or Remington-Peters, and Western-Winchester. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They were Westerns. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would you infer on the basis of your previous statement -that he had probably bought a larger quantity? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The inference would be that he had at least two boxes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. At some point? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; either that or he had obtained them from another -individual. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How about the rifle ammunition, this 6.5 -Mannlicher-Carcano rifle ammunition--how is that commonly sold--the -Western brand? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That would depend on the surplus house, how it is sold. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You think that might be sold in less than fixed minimum -quantities? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Many times that type of ammunition, surplus ammunition, -is sold in any amount. They will give a single price, single cartridge -price--or they will take off some if you buy them by the thousand or -the hundred. That is a lot different than commercially made ammunition -for sale in this country. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like to examine this witness now -on the paraffin test, if there are no further questions on the areas we -have been covering up to now. - -Representative FORD. Any questions, Mr. Boggs? - -Representative BOGGS. I don't think so. - -Representative FORD. Mr. Rhyne? - -Mr. RHYNE. Yes; you said that you were positive that these cartridge -cases that were found near where Officer Tippit was killed, and which -are over in front of Representative Boggs now, were fired in this gun. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. As I stated the first time, in my opinion those -cartridge cases were fired in that particular weapon to the exclusion -of all other weapons. - -Mr. RHYNE. And with respect to the bullets that were found in the body -of Officer Tippit, you testified that you could not be positive that -they were fired by this weapon, Exhibit 143. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I could not identify those bullets as having been fired -from that gun. However, the rifling characteristics on the bullets -are the same as produced by that weapon. Also, I could not identify -consecutive tests obtained from that revolver, using .38 Special -ammunition, and I could not identify, even though there are microscopic -marks on three of these bullets for comparison purposes--I could not -identify them with each other. - -Mr. RHYNE. Now, based on your many, many years of experience, is this -usual or unusual, that you are unable to identify bullets from such a -gun under these circumstances? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It is not unusual in this particular case. I have -had other cases with these rechambered .38 S&W revolvers, that are -rechambered to a .38 Special; it is not unusual to not be able to -identify them. And especially when the barrel has been cut off 2-3/4 -inches, it even cuts down the possibility a little bit more. - -Mr. RHYNE. I was under the impression that you people down at the FBI -could identify almost any bullet as coming from almost any gun. That is -not strictly true, then? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Thank you, but it is not. - -Representative BOGGS. How much has this barrel been cut off? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. About 2-3/4 inches. You measure the length of the -barrel from--you see the cylinder---- - -Representative BOGGS. Yes. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. And the portion coming out from the frame, that is a -portion of the barrel. And the barrel is measured from there to the -muzzle. And the barrel now is 2-1/4 inches long. The original barrel -was 5 inches long--or at least it is similar to the model that would -have a 5-inch barrel. - -Representative BOGGS. What is the advantage of reducing the length of -the barrel? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Two things--sales appeal and concealment. - -Representative BOGGS. Does it affect the firing quality of the weapon? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It affects your accuracy inasmuch as it cuts down on -your sight radius. Your longer barrel will be more accurate than a -shorter barrel, due to the longer sight radius. The reason that rifles -are inherently more accurate than a hand weapon is due, in part, to -the longer sight radius. That is the reason the farther you can get -away from the sight when you are firing a revolver, the more accurate. -Lengthening your sight radius will increase the accuracy. - -Mr. RHYNE. Based on your experience in your study of these bullets, do -you have an opinion as to whether or not they were fired by this gun? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; I cannot determine that. - -Mr. RHYNE. You have no opinion at all? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The only thing I can testify to, is they could have, -on the basis of the rifling characteristics--they could have been. -However, no conclusion could be reached from an actual comparison of -these bullets with test bullets obtained from that gun. - -Mr. RHYNE. Even though there are a lot of similar markings. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. There are not; no, sir. There are not a lot of similar -markings. They are similar. The rifling characteristics, are the same, -or similar. But, in the individual characteristic marks, there are not -a lot of similarities. There are not sufficient similarities to effect -an identification. - -Representative BOGGS. Stating Mr. Rhyne's question negatively, these -bullets could have been fired by another weapon? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. Either this weapon or another weapon -which has the same rifling characteristics. - -Representative FORD. You are limiting that to the bullets now? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The bullets. - -Mr. RHYNE. Yes; my question related just to the bullets. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I identified the cartridge cases. - -Mr. RHYNE. He was positive about the cartridge cases, but not about the -bullets. - -Representative BOGGS. Now, would it be likely to find these cartridge -cases, which you can positively identify as having been fired from this -weapon--would it be likely that these bullets which you cannot identify -as having been fired from this weapon--would it be likely that they -would be fired from another weapon under those circumstances? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Well, that, sir, depends on other extraneous facts -other than my comparisons and examinations. In other words, I can only -testify to what I actually found from an examination and comparison of -those bullets with these test bullets from that gun. And as to anything -else, I cannot testify. I mean--that would be based upon other facts. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Carrying some of these questions a little bit further, -Mr. Cunningham, you say that this bullet could have been fired from -this gun, and was fired from a gun with these rifling characteristics? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Which you said were five lands, five grooves, right -twist? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What about the widths of the lands and grooves? Did you -measure those? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; they were also the same. In other words, when I -say it has similar rifling characteristics--the widths of the lands and -the grooves is taken into account the rifling characteristics. It has -the same width and number of lands and grooves and a right twist. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, how many other--well, before I ask that, you have -also established that the bullets were .38 Specials? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And the manufacturer of each bullet? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would you say they had been fired therefore from a gun -chambered for a .38 Special? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; there was no indication that they were fired in a -weapon other than .38 caliber. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So that the weapon was a .38 Special weapon with five -lands, five grooves, right twist, and with the same dimensions for each -land and each groove. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, would the entire production run of this model -conform to that description? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. And also there are other models. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Other models also produced by Smith and Wesson? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; in .38 Special. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you estimate the number of those guns? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. May I have the NRA reprint? My estimate comes from the -figures that are set forth in Commission Exhibit 593, which states that -by 1942 there were a million "Military and Police" revolvers, which is -the prior model to the Victory model, which they produced. - -Representative BOGGS. That is this model? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir. But the model has similar rifling -characteristics. You could not distinguish between them. In other -words, one is a commercially made gun--this is strictly a wartime gun. -Also production of the "S" series continued until 1948, when the "C" -series was started, including over one million "M&P" models, including -the Victory model, which was this model, were manufactured between -1942 through March of 1948; and since that date, Smith and Wesson has -produced over 500,000 "M&P" revolvers in the "C" series, which, when -you add them up--there are over two and a half million. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Two and a half million? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Over 2-1/2 million. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, apart from specially handmade or equivalent -weapons, how many other types of weapons have you encountered which -have these rifling characteristics? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Other than possibly a Spanish-made copy of the -Smith--the Smith is the only one in .38 Special now that will have -similar rifling characteristics. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, when you say Spanish-made, you are referring to the -basement type of operation? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, this weapon did not produce, and does not -produce--that is, the weapon 143--does not produce identical -microscopic characteristics from bullet to bullet, you have testified. -And you have told us that the reason might be that the weapon was -rechambered but not rebarrelled, so that the .38 Special is slightly -undersized for the barrel? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It has not been rebarrelled. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That's right. So when you fire a .38 Special, it is -slightly undersized, and this might affect the barrel characteristics? -Wasn't that your testimony? That the .38 Special is slightly undersized? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; approximately four-thousandths of an inch. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, could you therefore limit the number of possible -weapons from which the bullets might have been fired, not only to the -2-1/2 million S&W's which you discussed, plus the possibility of -Spanish homemade weapons, but also to those weapons, that subcategory -of weapons within those 2-1/2 million, which does not produce -microscopic characteristics such that you can identify bullets fired -from them? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; you cannot, due to the fact that there was -also the possibility that the inability to identify consecutive tests -from that weapon could be caused from an accumulation of lead or from -barrel wear--the barrel was actually physically changing. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is not quite what I meant. Out of every ten S&W .38 -Specials, on the basis of your experience, how many do you think would -produce rifling characteristics such that you could identify bullets -fired from them? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Well, you could tell if the rifling characteristics are -similar. But as far as the individual characteristic marks, that would -be on an individual basis. Much depends on the imperfections in the -barrel. Now, if you have some real deep imperfections in a barrel, it -would be possible to pick them up each time. Even though you would have -a lot of dissimilarities, the similarities would be so distinctive that -there is always a possibility you could identify them. But not this -weapon. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Rhyne asked before whether it was usual or unusual -to get this type of weapon not producing microscopic characteristics -such that you could identify the bullet to the gun. You said it was not -unusual. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It is not unusual. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, I say out of every 10 such weapons, how many would -you expect to be in this condition--that is, in a condition such that -you cannot make an identification? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I would have no way of knowing that. - -Mr. EISENBERG. On the basis of your experience, the experience that led -you to say it is not unusual to have this condition? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I can only say that you find them, that you cannot -identify them, so it is not unusual. But as to numbers, I could not -say. When you go back and you take all the hundreds and hundreds of -examinations I have made, it is not unusual. But I also will not say -that it is usual. I will go to the negative, I will say it is not -unusual. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would you agree that out of the 2-1/2 million possible -weapons it could only have been fired from a gun which will not produce -microscopic characteristics such that you can identify the bullet to -the weapon? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. There is a good indication of that; yes. However, -there is mutilation on all four of the bullets. But the three we are -talking about, the ones that had marks for comparison purposes, now, -even though the possibility is remote, it is still possible that there -is mutilation in different areas of each bullet, so you would not be -able to identify them. Even if the bullets--even if they had not been -mutilated, you maybe still could not identify them. In other words, -your mutilation on different parts of each bullet would preclude the -possibility of identifying them with each other. So I cannot answer -your question positively. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Well, Mr. Chairman, I have one subject remaining with -this witness. Mr. Cunningham, are you familiar with the paraffin test? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you administered this test? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you give us the approximate number of times you have -administered it? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I don't know the exact number, but I must have -performed this test at least 100 times, and probably more. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, I will state for the record--I know you do not know -of this of your own knowledge, Mr. Cunningham--but a paraffin test was -performed on Lee Harvey Oswald by the Dallas Police. Three paraffin -casts were made, one of the right cheek, one of the right hand, and one -of the left hand. There was no reaction on the paraffin test of the -right cheek. There was a reaction on the paraffin test of each of the -right and left hands. - -I will now hand you a sketch which was made by a participant in those -tests, which shows the distribution of the blue or violet dots which -constitute a positive reaction to this test on the left and right hands -of Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Representative BOGGS. Before you do that, Mr. Cunningham, will you -describe briefly the procedure on a paraffin test? I want to understand -exactly what it is. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The so-called paraffin test is the making of reinforced -paraffin casts, of a person's hands, and then treating either with -either one of two reagents. One is diphenylamine, and the other is -diphenylbenzidine. - -Representative BOGGS. Is that when the cast is on? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is definitely after it is removed. - -Representative FORD. You actually make a cast of the individual's hand? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Oh, yes. - -Representative BOGGS. You make the casts. Then you take the casts off. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. You slit it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe how the cast is made? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. You first take warm paraffin. Each paraffin melts -at a slightly different temperature. What we were using in our tests -melts at about 130 deg. And this hot paraffin is placed on the hands. It -is spread on with a brush, or it can be poured over. If you are sure -that your brush is absolutely clean and will not react--and we checked -all of our equipment so that we were not getting a reaction from the -diphenylbenzidine--we let it pour on from the brush. Once you get a -coating, you can just brush it on, because then you won't be disturbing -any materials on the hands. And after you get a coat on, you take -gauze bandages and lay them on top and put more paraffin on them. The -gauze does nothing more than to give it reinforcement so it won't fall -apart or crumble when it gets real cool. Then you cut them off the -hands after they cool. Then they are chemically processed with either -diphenylamine or diphenylbenzidine. - -Representative BOGGS. The cast? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; the portion of the cast next to the hand. - -Representative BOGGS. Right. I understand now. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain why paraffin is used? What is the action -of the paraffin? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Well, the warm paraffin has the effect of opening up -the pores of the skin and many times material that you cannot get -off from washing will be picked up in the sticky paraffin. As it is -cooling, the dirt and the foreign material on the hands will become -embedded in the paraffin. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So the paraffin acts as a base to pick up---- - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It acts as a medium in which the foreign material is -picked up from the hands. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When you add the reagent, what is considered to be a -positive reaction? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It turns a blue color. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is the cast? When you say "it," it is the cast? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Well, specks on the cast. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Dots? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, or an area of the cast. The theory of the test -is that it is a test for gunpowder residues. Now, that is the theory, -and it is fallacious, inasmuch as the reagents used in these two tests -are not specific for gunpowder residues. Now, it is true that the -nitrates and nitrites in gunpowder residues will react positively with -diphenylamine and diphenylbenzidine, but they are not specific. They -will react--these two reagents will react with most oxidizing agents. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you give us a few examples? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. Urine, tobacco, cosmetics, pharmaceuticals, soil, -fertilizer--I have a list here of the different families or classes of -compounds that will react. - -In addition to nitrates and nitrites, substances such as dichromates, -permanganates, hypochlorites, periodates, some oxides, such as -selenium dioxide and so forth. Also, ferric chloride and chromates -and chlorates. The list of oxidizing agents is so large--that will -react--that you cannot specifically say it was a gunpowder residue. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Supposedly it is to determine whether or not a person -has fired a weapon. In actuality, in chemistry it is a good indication -that an oxidizing agent is present. The reagents have a valid use in a -chemistry laboratory. - -Representative BOGGS. Let me put the question this way. Given a dozen -ordinary people in the ordinary walk of life, what would be the chance -of a positive reaction on any one of these 12 people? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Excellent, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Has the FBI performed an experiment to determine this? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; we have. The early sets of tests we ran with -diphenylamine. And 17 men were involved in this test. Each man fired -five shots from a .38 caliber revolver. Both the firing hand and the -hand that was not involved in the firing were treated with paraffin -casts, and then those casts treated with diphenylamine. A total of -eight men showed negative or essentially negative results on both -hands. A total of three men showed positive results on the idle hand, -but negative on the firing hand. Two men showed positive results on -their firing hand and negative results on their idle hands. And four -men showed positive on both hands, after having fired only with their -right hands. That was the first test we ran. - -The second test--we used people who had not washed their hands in any -way. They were going about their duties during the day. Their hands -were soiled. Nine people fired weapons out of 29--20 people just had -the casts made. - -The first person fired a revolver. Both right hand and left hand were -positive. The second person fired a revolver. Both hands positive. A -person fired an automatic pistol, where you would not expect to find -residue. Both hands positive. Shooting with the right hand only, again -one with a revolver and three people firing automatics, all positive. -Shooting with the left hand only, one person with a revolver, one with -an automatic, both hands positive. - -Now, of the 20 people that had not come in contact with a gun--they -definitely had just gone about their business--every one of them showed -positive tests on either or both hands. A heavy smoker, for instance, -would come up positive in the area of the hand where you expect to find -residues from firing a gun. - -Representative FORD. That is the hand that you use for smoking? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That's correct. And I noticed you with your pipe. You -are also sure to react because you touch the tobacco in your pipe. You -do it unconsciously. During another test we performed recently I did -not know that the diphenylbenzidine was on the corner of the cast I was -trying to pick up to wash off. I just touched it, and both my fingers -which had touched my cigar turned a blue color. That is how sensitive -it is. - -Now, of these 20 people--true there were some that had one hand that -did not get a reaction, but they all got a reaction, one hand or -another, or both. - -Now, recently in connection with the assassination we made casts--the -three of us, Special Agents Frazier, Killion, and myself, for -neutron-activation. However, two of the casts we treated with -diphenylbenzidine. We obtained a cast of the left hand after firing -this particular revolver four times and reloading. We obtained a cast -of the right hand after firing that revolver four times, and reloading. -We treated both casts, fronts and backs with diphenylbenzidine. This -particular one was run on me. I washed my hands thoroughly with green -soap--and the green soap, by the way, did not react because we checked -it--the gauze used and the paraffin were all checked, to see if they -would react, and they did not. We found numerous, numerous reactions -on the casts of both hand. And I did not fire a weapon with my left -hand. However, as I previously showed you, when I demonstrated how you -ejected cartridge cases, all of those residues showed up, as well as, -I am sure, other foreign material that the paraffin removed from my -hands. And there were reactions on both hands, fronts and backs. - -Now, theoretically, you should not find them on the backs over here, -because I had my left hand behind me, and you would find it on the -palm. We found reactions everywhere on the casts. - -Representative FORD. It is 12:30 now. We will recess until 2 o'clock -this afternoon. - -(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -Afternoon Session - -TESTIMONY OF CORTLANDT CUNNINGHAM RESUMED - - -The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m. - -Mr. DULLES. You are still under oath, Mr. Cunningham, so we won't swear -you again. Will you proceed? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, I would like to take up a few things -relating to this morning's testimony and then we will go back to -paraffin test. - -First, I hand you two bullets and I ask you whether you are familiar -with these bullets? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is your mark on those bullets? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. On the nose; yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you identify them to us? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. These are two of the tests that I fired from Commission -Exhibit 143, Oswald's revolver. - -Mr. EISENBERG. One is a---- - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. One of them is a copper-coated lead bullet. In this -case, I know that it is Western, because that was the cartridge I used, -and the other one is a Winchester .38 Special lead bullet. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have these admitted in evidence as -Commission Exhibit 606? - -Mr. DULLES. They may be admitted as 606. - -(The bullets referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 606, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, using these bullets as demonstrations, could you -tell us how you determined that the bullets that were recovered from -the body of Officer Tippit, which you looked at this morning, and those -were Exhibits 602 through 604, were respectively a Western-Winchester -.38 Special and a Remington-Peters .38 Special? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; however, I couldn't do it with these two -bullets. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Sure, use 602 to---- - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The copper-coated lead bullet. I could use and I did -use it--I made a photograph. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Before we discuss that further, let's see if we can mark -that for identification. Can you describe what is in this photograph? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. It is a photograph of four bullets. The first -bullet starting from the left is Commission Exhibit No. 604. As you -can see right on the label, it is Q-501, which would be Commission -Exhibit 604. The next bullet to it is a test bullet that I fired from -Commission Exhibit 143, which is a known 158-grain lead bullet of -Remington-Peters manufacture. - -The third bullet in the photograph is our number C-253, which is -Commission Exhibit No. 603. And the fourth bullet in the photograph is -this particular bullet which you have given Commission Exhibit 606. It -is a copper-coated lead bullet of Western manufacture. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you take this photograph? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I was present when it was taken. I compared the bullets -with the negative, and I can testify that this photograph is a true -representation--an accurate representation of the four bullets that -were photographed. - -Mr. DULLES. And this photograph is Commission Exhibit No.---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. If you will admit it into evidence, it will be 607. - -Mr. DULLES. It may be admitted. - -(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 607 and -was received in evidence.) - -(At this point Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. DULLES. All right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, we have introduced a photograph, which -is Commission Exhibit No. 607, which shows four bullets labeled -"C-252," "R-P," "C-253," and "Western." - -Are two of those bullets the bullets which you just identified as -Exhibit 606? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No; Commission Exhibit 606, the copper-coated Western -bullet, is the same bullet that was in this photograph, labeled the -Western bullet. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you hold that up? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; that is the bullet. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The copper-coated or copper-colored bullet in 606 -corresponds with the far right-hand side bullet labeled "Western" in -607? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What about the lead-colored bullet in 606? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is a Remington-Peters 158-grain lead bullet. I do -not have that one with me. - -Mr. EISENBERG. This would be similar in appearance though to the bullet -which was photographed as the "R-P" bullet? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, it isn't. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Why is that? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Because this is a Winchester. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Why isn't it copper coated? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The Western Cartridge Division of Olin Mathieson Corp. -loads both lead- and copper-coated bullets into their .38 Specials. - -As of today, Winchester is only loading--under that brand--uncoated -bullets. That is what their latest catalog says. - -Only Western is loading copper-coated bullets. They are both made in -the same factory--they are both made by the Western Cartridge Division -of Olin Mathieson Chemical Corp. in East Alton, Ill. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So you didn't give us an R-P test bullet? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I did not. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I see. Did you use an R-P test bullet in attempting to -make your identification? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; you asked for our first two tests. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I see. Okay. Can you show by use of that photograph, -Exhibit 607, how you were able to determine that certain of the bullets -found in Officer Tippit were of R-P manufacture, .38 Special, and -certain were Winchester-Western? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. - -First of all, in the manufacture of these bullets, each manufacturer -has his own specifications for how they are to look. By that I mean -generally that both manufacturers' bullets are similar. They are -similar in weight. They are generally similar in size and diameter -as well as length. However, the number and the spacing between the -grooves--these grooves, the cannelures, are not similar. It is actually -a knurling process, you can see the knurling marks. - -Mr. DULLES. What is the purpose of those? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Lubrication grooves. .38 Specials being lead -bullets--in order to keep down excessive leading they put in a -lubricant--Remington-Peters--they use a very dark heavy lubricant. -Western-Winchester, they use a very light-colored waxy type of -lubricant. - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Up above you will see a small groove. It is nothing -more than just a slight groove. That can be caused when the case is -crimped, the bullet is crimped into the case. - -Representative FORD. That is in the R-P? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. On both of them, sir. - -Representative FORD. That is on both? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; you see one here, that has actually been put in. -They load up to that certain place and they crimp into that groove, -which is known as a crimping groove. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When you say crimping groove, do you mean the cartridge -is tightened around the case? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The neck of the case is tightened around--is crimped -into the bullet. The distance between the base to the first cannelure, -and the width of the cannelure, the portion of the bullet between the -two cannelures, and the width of the next cannelure, is individual with -Remington-Peters bullets. - -In other words, Western-Winchester bullets are not made with the same -width cannelures and the same distances between the two of them. Each -manufacturer prefers to have a certain distance between cannelures and -a certain width of cannelure, and it is strictly individual to each -company. By these specifications--and also another very important thing -is the base shape--you can determine whether or not a bullet is of one -manufacture or another. - -If you will take these two, one of the tests in Commission Exhibit No. -606, you will see that the number, the width and everything about the -copper-coated Western and the uncoated Winchester are the same. In -other words, they put a flash coat of the gilding metal on the bullet -and as I testified previously its chief value is for sales appeal, and, -a secondary value to prevent leading. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. DULLES. Back on the record again. Continue please. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, as of November 22, 1963, how many major -manufacturers were there in the United States who were manufacturing -.38 Special bullets? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Three. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Who were they? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. First, is the Western Cartridge Division of Olin -Mathieson Chemical Corp., East Alton, Ill., which manufactures -ammunition under the trade names "Western" as well as "Winchester." - -The next major manufacturer is Du Pont, and they manufacture in -their Remington Cartridge Division ammunition under the trade names -"Remington" and "Peters," and the third manufacturer is Federal -Cartridge Co. in Minneapolis. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How many manufacturers of .38 Special ammunition are -there outside the United States, approximately? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I would have no way of knowing all of them. I know it -is manufactured in Canada by Dominion, and Norma also manufactures it. - -Mr. DULLES. What was that name? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Norma. - -Mr. DULLES. N-o-r-m-a? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. In Canada too? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; it is in Sweden. - -DWM in Germany must manufacture it, I am just recalling these -larger manufacturers that should manufacture it. Also, some English -manufacturers. - -Mr. EISENBERG. How are you certain that one of the bullets found -in Officer Tippit was not manufactured by one of the foreign -manufacturers, either one you are acquainted with or one you are not? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. We maintain a Test Specimen and a Standard Ammunition -File, and we have foreign ammunition in them, although I don't think we -have all of the foreign. But we have never come across a foreign-made -bullet with the same physical characteristics as the bullets -represented by those removed from the body of Officer Tippit. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you attempt to get a complete file of .38 Special -ammunition? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. We definitely maintain an up-to-date file in our -Standard Ammunition File in the laboratory of all domestic manufactured -ammunition as well as some foreign, for instance, Norma and Dominion, -and we have specimens from other foreign manufacturers. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And you say that of the specimens you do have which you -feel are as complete as possible you have never come across two types -which are similar at least to these .38 Specials? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now Mr. Frazier yesterday said that the Walker bullet -seemed to be a 6.5 millimeter bullet or may have been fired from the -6.5 millimeter Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, had the same general rifling -characteristics as was found on that rifle which is in evidence as -Commission Exhibit---- - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. 139. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; 139. - -Now do you have a complete file of 6.5 or a large file of 6.5 -millimeter ammunition? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. We have some. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you feel it is as complete as your .38 Special file? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No; I do not. However, we have never found any foreign -manufacturer manufacturing 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano ammunition that was -similar to this. - -From its general appearance, it has all the similarities of a -western-world-manufactured bullet---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now this is Commission---- - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. In other words, the knurling is typical--the physical -characteristics were similar to those of the bullets manufactured by -the Western Cartridge Co. - -Mr. EISENBERG. This is Commission Exhibit 573, which is the--as to -which Mr. Frazier has testified, and which is believed to be the bullet -found in the Walker residence. - -Are you familiar with it? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And you have examined it as well as Mr. Frazier? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would you say that this bullet was a 6.5-mm. Western -copper-jacketed Mannlicher-Carcano bullet? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I would. - -Mr. EISENBERG. As definitely as you say the bullets which we -have just been looking at are respectively Remington-Peters and -Western-Winchester .38 Special bullets? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Could I see that just a moment? - -What did that hit, the brick wall of the house? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I have no idea, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. You don't know? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I don't know. I have no first-hand knowledge of it. -It is in essentially the same condition as when we received it in the -laboratory, and all I know would be what has already been furnished -your Commission by report. - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now given the fact that that was a 6.5-millimeter -Mannlicher-Carcano cartridge, could that have been fired in any other -6.5-millimeter rifle? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; it has to be a rifle that is chambered -specifically for this particular cartridge. In other words, there are -other 6.5-millimeter cartridges. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, as I understand it, your conclusion and Mr. -Frazier's was only that this cartridge, that this bullet, could have -been fired from Exhibit 139 or a rifle with similar---- - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. On the basis of the rifling characteristics it could -have been fired from 139. However, there are insufficient marks -remaining to determine whether or not it had actually been so fired. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now the testimony yesterday as I recall it was that it -was fired either from Exhibit 139 or from a rifle with similar, or from -a weapon with similar rifling characteristics? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. But according to your testimony it would have to be -similar to a 6.5-millimeter Mannlicher-Carcano rifle? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No; I did not so testify. You asked if you could fire -another 6.5-mm. cartridge other than the cartridge---- - -Mr. EISENBERG. I asked if that cartridge, if a Western manufacture -6.5-mm. Mannlicher-Carcano cartridge could be fired in a gun other than -the 6.5-mm. Mannlicher-Carcano. And you said, as I recall it, "It could -only be fired from a gun chambered for that cartridge." - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. That 6.5-mm. Mannlicher-Carcano -cartridge could only be fired in a weapon that is chambered for that -particular cartridge. Further we have never found another cartridge -that this particular type bullet has been loaded into. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Have you any reason to believe there is another -6.5-millimeter rifle manufactured that is chambered for that cartridge? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. None that I know of. Maybe I misunderstood -you. You mean, if the weapon is chambered for a 6.5-millimeter -Mannlicher-Carcano, then that is commonly known as its caliber? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. But you can rechamber weapons for another cartridge, as -they do all the time with the military surplus Springfield rifles. You -can have them rebarreled and rechambered. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Apart from rechambering, talking just about original -manufacture, do I understand that the only weapon which you have -encountered, the only 6.5 millimeter weapon you have encountered which -would fire the particular type of cartridge which is Exhibit 573 is the -Mannlicher-Carcano rifle? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; the various models of it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Okay. - -Before the luncheon--are there any further questions along this line? - -Before the luncheon recess we were talking about the paraffin test and -we were discussing the significance of a positive result, and you had -given testimony concerning two experiments which the FBI had run which -indicated that positive results might be obtained even by a person who -had not recently fired a weapon? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. A paraffin test was also run of Oswald's cheek and it -produced a negative result. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do your tests, or do the tests which you ran, or -your experience with revolvers and rifles, cast any light on the -significance of a negative result being obtained on the right cheek? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; I personally wouldn't expect to find any -residues on a person's right cheek after firing a rifle due to the fact -that by the very principles and the manufacture and the action, the -cartridge itself is sealed into the chamber by the bolt being closed -behind it, and upon firing the case, the cartridge case expands into -the chamber filling it up and sealing it off from the gases, so none -will come back in your face, and so by its very nature, I would not -expect to find residue on the right cheek of a shooter. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Would you expect to find residues on a person who has -fired a revolver such as Commission Exhibit 143? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. There again, by its design, you would expect to find -something, although there are cases where you won't find it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Why do you expect to find a residue in the case of the -revolver as opposed to the rifle? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. A revolver has a revolving cylinder. There is a space -between the barrel and the front portion of the cylinder. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I wonder whether you could show that by use of Exhibit -143? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. You can see when you close the cylinder, and each -chamber lines up, there is a few thousandths space between. When the -bullet is fired, the bullet jumps across this space and enters the ramp -and then into the rifling. - -The gases always escape through this small space. The loss is -negligible, but the gases are escaping on every shot. After you fire -this revolver, you can see residues, smoke deposits and other residues -around the entrance to the rear portion of the barrel which is next to -the cylinder, as well as on the cylinder itself. - -So you would expect to find gunpowder residues on a person's hands -after he fired a revolver. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do I understand your testimony to be that there is no -equivalent gap in the manufacture of a rifle? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you run any kind of a test with this revolver which -would indicate whether it did in fact leave residues? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; I did, or we did, three of us, Mr. Frazier, Mr. -Killion, and myself. The tests were run on me. I was the one who washed -my hands thoroughly. I did not use a brush, I just washed them with -green soap and rinsed them in distilled water. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The purpose of this washing was what? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. To remove possible dirt from my hands. I washed my -hands. The gun was then wiped off with dilute HCl to get rid of any -deposits already on the gun, and I fired it in our bullet-recovery -room, four times--and then after firing I opened it up and ejected -the cartridge cases into my hand, as I showed you earlier today. The -amount of residue that you pick up on your hands from ejection of the -cartridge cases was in my hand at the time. - -I then, under ideal conditions naturally, went back and had paraffin -casts made of my hands and these were treated with a solution of -diphenylbenzidine. - -The results of this examination were that we got a positive result on -both casts, front and back. Many reactions in this area where I had -ejected the cartridge cases in my hand were noted. - -Mr. EISENBERG. By the way, you testified this morning that many common -substances will produce a positive reaction to the nitrate test, -so-called paraffin test. - -Will the handling of an unclean weapon also produce a positive reaction? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Just as much as firing it will. That is what makes this -test so unreliable. Handling a recently fired weapon, that is covered -with residues--you would get just as many oxidizing agents in the form -of nitrates and nitrites on your hands as you would from firing it and -in some cases more--especially up here and around here you would. - -Mr. DULLES. Does the time between the tests, between the firing and the -test, make very much difference, within a few hours? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. If the residues are on the skin they will react. In -other words, if the material has been washed off completely, then you -are all through, but if it remains on the skin or is imbedded in the -pores of the skin it would still react, but so will so many other -things. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Just to review for a second your testimony this morning, -in the experiments that the FBI ran, a revolver or automatic pistol -were used as opposed to rifles, as I recall it? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Were there any negative results following the shooting -of the revolver or automatic pistol? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. None of those were negative results, but they were not -run under the same conditions. By the way, with an automatic pistol you -shouldn't expect to find any residues, for the same reason as with a -rifle--the cartridge is chamber, and the boltface comes in right behind. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you look at your notes for your first experiment, -because as I recall there were some negative results on that. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The only negative results were on the 20 people who -were run as a control and who had never fired a gun, and even for those -people they all got positive reactions at least on one hand. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I am talking about the first experiment now, not the -second one. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The first experiment--yes; that was true. This test was -a little bit different. - -In other words, they were not just taking people from their work. These -people had washed their hands. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In other words, their hands were cleaned before they -fired the weapon? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. But then some of them fired a revolver and still didn't -get a residue, as I remember your testimony? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you make a test with the exhibit, with the rifle, -139, to determine whether that left a powder residue on the right cheek? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. We did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Will you describe that test? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; this time we ran a control. We were interested in -running a control to find out just what the possibility was of getting -a positive reaction after a person has thoroughly washed their hands. -Mr. Killion used green soap and washed his hands, and we ran a control, -both of the right cheek and of both hands. - -We got many reactions on both the right hand and the left hand, and he -had not tired a gun that day. - -Mr. EISENBERG. This was before firing the rifle? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. That was before firing the rifle. We got no -reaction on the cheek. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Also before firing the rifle? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. - -We fired the rifle. Mr. Killion fired it three times rapidly, using -similar ammunition to that used in the assassination. We reran the -tests both on the cheek and both hands. This time we got a negative -reaction on all casts. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So to recapitulate, after firing the rifle rapid-fire no -residues of any nitrate were picked off Mr. Killion's cheek? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct, and there were none on the hands. We -cleaned off the rifle again with dilute HCl. I loaded it for him. He -held it in one of the cleaned areas and I pushed the clip in so he -would not have to get his hands near the chamber--in other words, so -he wouldn't pick up residues, from it, or from the action, or from the -receiver. When we ran the casts, we got no reaction on either hand or -on his cheek. On the controls, when he hadn't fired a gun all day, we -got numerous reactions. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Are there any further questions on the paraffin test? - -Representative FORD. Based on your testimony this morning, and what you -have told us in the last few minutes, why are paraffin tests conducted -and how extensively are they? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Many local law-enforcement agencies do conduct these -tests, and at their request the FBI will process them. They take the -cast and we will process them. - -However, in reporting, we give them qualified results, since we -frequently will get some reaction. Numerous reactions or a few -reactions will be found on the casts. However, in no way does this -indicate that a person has recently fired a weapon. Then we list a few -of the oxidizing agents, the common ones, such as in urine and tobacco -and cosmetics and a few other things that one may come in contact with. -Even Clorox would give you a positive reaction. - -Representative FORD. Is this a test that has been conducted by -law-enforcement agencies for some time. Is it a new test? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; the first test that I reported on here were -conducted in 1935. - -There may be some law-enforcement agencies which use the test for -psychological reasons. - -Mr. DULLES. Explain that. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; what they do is they ask, say, "We are going -to run a paraffin test on you, you might as well confess now," and they -will--it is-- - -Mr. DULLES. I get your point. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Following up Congressman Ford's question, does the -FBI run paraffin tests except on request from other law-enforcement -agencies? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. We don't, no. Basically, the paraffin test is the -preparing of the cast. We don't do that. We will run the chemical -processing of these casts at the request of the local law-enforcement -agency. - -Mr. EISENBERG. To rephrase it, if the FBI is having an investigation by -itself in a matter it has primary jurisdiction over, will it use the -paraffin test? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No; not the paraffin-chemical test. - -Representative FORD. Is that because of the feeling that it is not as -reliable as it should be? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It is the feeling that it is definitely not reliable -as to determining whether or not a person has fired a weapon. It is -positive, and diphenlybenzidine solution is very positive and very -sensitive, as to whether or not an oxidizing agent is present and it is -used in chemistry. - -Mr. DULLES. You and I with our pipes would be in trouble here, wouldn't -we? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; I mentioned that this morning. - -Representative FORD. He brought it out this morning. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I would be willing to state right now if we processed -both of your hands you would come up positive, because invariably pipe -smokers stick their finger in the bowl and you would get a positive -reaction. - -I am a cigar smoker, I also would come up positive. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I don't have any further questions, Mr. Chairman. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you have any further questions? - -Representative FORD. I have no questions. - -Mr. RHYNE. I take it in sum and substance that these paraffin tests are -practically worthless? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. For the determination of whether or not a person has -fired a weapon. - -Mr. RHYNE. A gun? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. - -Now the test is not worthless in chemistry. - -Mr. DULLES. What use are they then except possibly from this -psychological angle that you have mentioned? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. We don't---- - -Mr. DULLES. Are they useful in other ways than but for the -psychological reasons you mentioned? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. As far as whether or not a person has fired a gun? - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No. Even with the mere handling of this weapon I could -pick up residues. One could not testify that a person has fired a -weapon because he had residues on his hands, which I showed you this -morning, for example. - -There is a spot right there on my hand, and all I have done is empty -the weapon. - -Representative FORD. Did the FBI conduct a paraffin test on Oswald? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; the Dallas Police Department did. - -Representative FORD. The FBI did not? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. We did not, sir. - -Representative FORD. You didn't analyze it? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. We did not. We obtained the paraffin casts and another -agent in the spectographic unit took them to Oak Ridge and had them -subjected to neutron activation, with which I am not familiar. But we -did not do the original examination and the reporting. I don't know -definitely as to what the Dallas Police Department did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. It was under the supervision of the Dallas Police -Department. I think a doctor performed the test, I am not sure whether -it was a police doctor or not. - -By the way, after the paraffin test is run, does the positive reaction -stay evident on the paraffin cast? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, it does not, due to the fact you have to wash -it off. The solution of diphenylbenzidine is 70 percent sulphuric -acid. The solution we were using in these tests was .25 grams of -diphenylbenzidine to 100 ml. of 70 percent sulphuric acid, and -sulphuric acid is corrosive. In other words, the majority of the -solution is 70 percent sulphuric acid. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So the casts as they are now don't show anything except -white paraffin? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. - -Mr. DULLES. You have no further questions? - -Mr. MURRAY. No, thank you, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much, Mr. Cunningham. Thank you very much, -sir. - - -TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH D. NICOL - -Mr. DULLES. Mr. Nicol, I am presiding at the request of the Chief -Justice. - -Will you kindly raise your right hand. Do you swear the testimony you -will give before this Commission is the truth, the whole truth, and -nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. NICOL. I do. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Nicol, would you state your name and position? - -Mr. NICOL. Joseph D. Nicol, Superintendent of the Bureau of Criminal -Identification and Investigation for the State of Illinois. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you briefly describe your qualifications in the -field of firearms investigation? - -Mr. NICOL. I began studying this field in 1941 in the Chicago Police -Crime Laboratory under Charles Wilson, remained there as a firearms -technician for approximately 9 years, and then moved to Pittsburgh, -where I directed and set up the Pittsburgh and Allegheny County Crime -Laboratory, also working in the field of ballistics. - -Then I went to Miami, Fla., and set up the Dade County Crime Laboratory -and worked there for 5 years. I went to Michigan State and taught for 4 -and now I am back in Illinois, in Springfield, as Superintendent of the -Bureau. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you tell us approximately how many bullets and -cartridge cases you have examined to identify them or attempt to -identify them to suspect weapons? - -Mr. NICOL. This would number in the thousands, I do not have an exact -figure, but our caseload in Chicago is approximately 4,000 guns -annually, of which we would make approximately between 10 and a dozen -comparisons, so the comparisons that would be conducted by myself or -those under my direct supervision would be approximately 50,000 a year. -Now this is just a rough figure. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have any publications or lectures? - -Mr. NICOL. I have one minor publication in the field of firearms. Most -of my publication work has been with the "Journal of Criminology" in -the area, of the technical note and abstract section. - -I do not have any major publications in the firearms field. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What is your association with that Journal? - -Mr. NICOL. I am associate editor of the "Journal of Criminal Law and -Criminology." - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you lecture on any regular basis? - -Mr. NICOL. At the present time I am lecturing with the University of -Illinois in criminal investigation, at the Chicago campus, and prior -to that I had been on the staff at Michigan State University for -approximately 4 years. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What was your education before you went into this field? - -Mr. NICOL. I have a Bachelor of Science degree in Chemistry from -Northwestern, and during the period that I was with the Chicago Crime -Laboratory I got a Master's in Physics also from Northwestern. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like permission to take Mr. -Nicol's testimony as an expert witness in the field of firearms -identification. - -Mr. DULLES. You may proceed. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Nicol, I will hand you 3 exhibits, 3 items, -Commission Exhibits 399, 567, and 569, which I will describe for the -record as being a bullet and 2 bullet fragments, and I ask you whether -you are familiar with those 3 Commission Exhibits? - -Mr. NICOL. May I examine them? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes, you may. - -Mr. NICOL. Yes, this was the exhibit that was given to me as Q-1 in the -original transmission. - -Mr. EISENBERG. This being which Commission exhibit? - -Mr. NICOL. This being 399. - -Exhibit 567, this was referred to as Q-2, and also accompanied the -other exhibit. - -Commission Exhibit 569, this is Q-3. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Are your marks on those exhibits? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes, I have marked my initials on an unrifled portion of -each one of these exhibits. There were also other marks on it at the -time I received the specimens. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I don't know whether you gentlemen have seen these. -These are rifle bullets and bullet fragments. - -Mr. DULLES. Is this the one that was found on the stretcher? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Exhibit 399 is the bullet that was found on the -stretcher. Exhibits 567 and 569 were found in the front portion of the -President's car. - -Mr. DULLES. These are pretty badly mutilated, aren't they? - -Mr. NICOL. Apparently they are separated so that one can't tell whether -they come from a single bullet or from two separate projectiles. One is -a nose portion and the other is a base. - -Mr. DULLES. Is this the one that is the nose portion? - -Mr. EISENBERG. You are handing, Mr. Dulles is handing Mr. Nicol -Commission Exhibit 569. - -Mr. NICOL. No, that would be the base portion. - -Mr. DULLES. That is what I thought. Are those different parts of the -same bullet possibly? - -Mr. NICOL. That is possible, because there appears to be an interval -of approximately an eighth of an inch that is not present, so that the -area where one begins is not even with the other, so it is not possible -to tell, at least I couldn't to express an opinion. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is, they might be two separate bullets or two parts -of the same bullet? - -Mr. NICOL. Two parts of the same or separate bullets that is right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I hand you Commission Exhibit 572, which for the record -consists of two bullets, and ask you whether you are familiar with -those bullets? - -Mr. NICOL. These are the two projectiles which were given to me as K-1, -and were used by me as standards or tests. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, when you say "standards or tests," could you -amplify that? - -Mr. NICOL. On the basis of information on the cartridge, or on the -envelope, rather, it was my understanding that these had been fired -from a weapon. I have not any personal knowledge of the weapon from -which they were fired, but they were used as comparison standards to be -compared against rifling impressions on the other three exhibits. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you tell us how you obtained these four exhibits -which you have just looked at? - -Mr. NICOL. All these exhibits were obtained from Mr. Eisenberg on March -24, here in this office. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And for the record, I obtained these items from the -Federal Bureau of Investigation, and transmitted them directly to Mr. -Nicol for his examination. - -Now, Mr. Nicol, you therefore did not fire the two test bullets which -you used in your comparison? - -Mr. NICOL. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And can you go into that at any length as to--do you -have any reason for that? - -Mr. NICOL. Well, probably two very basic reasons. One, the matter of -time, and secondly the fact that I did not have facilities in the -area where I was working for the collection of such tests from a -high-powered weapon. - -There is the other problem, as developed later, it was apparent that -the weapon, even in the firing of this small sequence, was undergoing -some changes, and it was my understanding that several shots had been -fired since these tests were fired and there might be some likelihood -of transitory changes which would make these the best specimens rather -than those I might fire now after this series. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Again for the record, I had been informed by the FBI -that some 50 or more bullets had been fired from the rifle, and that -the firing of this many bullets from a high-velocity weapon would -seriously alter the characteristics of the barrel. - -Representative FORD. Would that be your conclusion, too? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes, it would be. It has been my experience that there is a -rapid erosion with the high pressures and high temperatures that are -involved in a weapon of that velocity. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Nicol, did you examine the three exhibits which -were given to you as Q-1, Q-2, and Q-3, and which are now, I believe -567, 569, and 399---- - -Mr. NICOL. Yes sir; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. To determine whether or not they had come from the -identical barrel as that in which the two--the bullets in Exhibit 572 -had sheen fired? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes, I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Can you give us your conclusions? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes. It is my opinion that the same weapon that fired -Commission's Exhibit 572 also fired the projectiles in Commission's -Exhibits 569, 567, and 399. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That would be to the exclusion of all other weapons? - -Mr. NICOL. Correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you take photographs of the test and suspect items? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Under the comparison microscope? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And have you brought those photographs with you? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir; I have. - -I might say in passing that this was done in Philadelphia with -equipment that I was not thoroughly conversant with, that is, a type -that I have used, but each piece has some idiosyncrasy, and considering -the time element I do not offer these as the best quality that could be -produced under the circumstances. - -Representative FORD. Does that make any difference in your judgment or -opinion? - -Mr. NICOL. No, sir; it doesn't, because my opinion is based upon a -visual examination. That is, photography is not an integral part of -arriving at the conclusion, except in one facet which I will discuss -later. - -Mr. EISENBERG. On that subject, have you testified in court on firearms -identification? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir; many times. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you usually use photographs when you testify? - -Mr. NICOL. No. As a matter of fact, I can't recall an instance in which -I have. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And why were these prepared? - -Mr. NICOL. These were prepared at your request so that there would be -documentary evidence of what I was observing. However--and this one, -for example, will serve to illustrate the type of photography that is -involved. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Excuse me a second. - -You are holding up a photograph labeled Q-1, K-1. Did you take that -photograph, Mr. Nicol? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes, this was taken under a comparison microscope. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And Q-1 is one of the bullets which I have called the -suspect bullets, and K-1 is the test bullet? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes, Q-1 would be 399, and K-1 would be one of the -projectiles in 572. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this photograph admitted as -Commission Exhibit No. 608? - -Mr. DULLES. It may be admitted. - -(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 608 and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Using this photograph, Mr. Nicol, could you explain some -of the markings which led you to the conclusion that Q-1 or Exhibit 399 -had been fired from the same barrel through which K-1 was fired? - -Mr. DULLES. Before you do that, just for an amateur, would you explain -what this is a photograph of, the inside of the barrel? - -Mr. NICOL. No, this is a photograph of two projectiles. - -Mr. DULLES. Projectiles? - -Mr. NICOL. This is the dividing line of the comparison bridge actually. -You see a portion of one, of K-1 on one side and Q-1 on the other. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is that groove on the right a cannelure? - -Mr. NICOL. There is a cannelure, that would be the position at which -the projectile is crimped and held in the cartridge case. - -Representative FORD. Why wouldn't that show on Q-1? - -Mr. NICOL. It would be over here on the other side. You see you only -see this much of Q-1, and it may show on Q-1, but it will be over -underneath, and you only see this much of it--in half the field. - -Representative FORD. This is an overlay in effect? - -Mr. NICOL. In a sense, yes, and you are actually masking off half of -each one that is represented over here, and masking off half of the K-1 -over here. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. What is the magnification of these photographs, by the -way? - -Mr. NICOL. These were taken on five by seven, I would estimate about 30 -diameter. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And is the magnification of Q-1 the same as the -magnification of K-1? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir; the optics are carefully matched in order that -they magnify identically. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Will that statement be true of all the comparison -photographs that will be shown? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir. They may not be at the same magnification because -I took some of the subsequent ones on a different unit which had -different optics. - -Mr. EISENBERG. But the left and right side of the pictures would be at -the same magnification as each other? - -Mr. NICOL. They will be at matched magnification, correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Why don't you continue. - -Mr. NICOL. Starting up at the top you will notice a white patch which -represents a land impression on the two projectiles. Immediately below -that a large patch with a similarity of the contours of the edges. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Nicol, do you think you could circle that and mark -it "1" so that people looking at the record in the future will know -what you are referring to? Circle it or make an arrow? - -Mr. NICOL. All right. - -Below that in approximately this position you will see a line on Q-1 -that is found over in the comparable position on K-1. - -Below that at a point representing an imperfection on Q-1, slight -damage to the projectile, you will notice a line which continues across. - -Below that a pair of lines, and then a larger line, below that a pair -of fairly deep impressions, and below that another pair of single -broad grooves, and then another pair, one of the lines is not in the -same size, and then as one gets further down the match is--the bullets -are no longer in a match relationship, simply because Q-1 is somewhat -distorted as a result of having struck some hard object at the base -portion, so that it is oval. - -In the case here we are comparing two surfaces of different radii so -that they do not--looking at them as a projection they do not match up. - -But in this particular region, from approximately this fill-in in the -cannelure, there is a sufficient number of points of identification to -lead me to the conclusion they were both fired in the same weapon. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you mark that, that you mention as "2"? - -Mr. DULLES. This again, at least the "Q" part of this, is the bullet -that was found in the stretcher? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir; this specimen here. - -Mr. DULLES. That is on the left-hand side, is it? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. "Q," as Mr. Cunningham stated, is the FBI mark for -"questioned," whereas "K" is the FBI mark for "known." - -Mr. NICOL. I retained the same nomenclature so I would not add any -unnecessary marks. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now do you have another photograph? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes. I took three different positions of Q-1 and K-1. This -would be now with the same projectiles under the comparison microscope -but rotated to a new position. Each one of these positions shows a -similar rotation. - -Do you want to mark these? - -Mr. EISENBERG. This photograph was also taken by you, Mr. Nicol? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this admitted as 609? - -Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted. - -(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 609, and -was received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. This is also marked Q-1 and K-1. - -That will be Commission Exhibit 609. - -Would you discuss that photograph briefly, Mr. Nicol? - -Mr. NICOL. This represents a new position of Q-1 and K-1 in a match -relationship. Both have been rotated simultaneously through the same -angle, and looking at the bottom this time, the large broad area -represents a land impression. - -Then coming up to a point approximately a half inch above the land edge -there is a deep groove paired up with several other deep indentations. -These are worth noting because these represented very prominent index -marks on both Q-1, Q-2, and Q-3. This was used as, you might say, a -point of departure in lining up the projectiles. And again this shows -what I would consider evidence of similarity between the rifling -impressions on both projectiles. - -Mr. DULLES. You wouldn't go further than that--"evidence of similarity"? - -Mr. NICOL. Well, I would go so far as to say that based upon the -individual characteristics that I observed, these, plus those shown on -the other photograph, would lead me to the opinion that they were fired -in the same gun. - -When I refer to similarities, these would be individual characteristics -which would be in the same category as the individual points of -identification on a fingerprint. This would be tantamount to the -fingerprint of that particular weapon. - -Mr. EISENBERG. This is the third photograph? - -Mr. NICOL. This is a third photograph of another very prominent mark on -both projectiles. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Taken by you, Mr. Nicol? - -Mr. NICOL. Right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this admitted as Commission Exhibit 610? - -Mr. DULLES. It will be admitted. - -(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 610 and -was received in evidence.) - -Representative Ford (addressing Mr. Eisenberg). Now both Q-1 and K-1 -were fired from the Commission Exhibit 139? - -Mr. EISENBERG. 139, yes. The FBI fired K-1 from Exhibit 139. - -Mr. Nicol has now identified Q-1 as having been fired from the same -source as K-1, and, therefore, from Exhibit 139. - -Representative FORD. Yes. - -Mr. NICOL. This represents a third position of Q-1 and K-1, and in this -third position, of course, the first two positions still are in match -relationship, that is to say in a relative sense; because of mutilation -of Q-1 they would not be precise, there would be some mild adjustments. - -What I am illustrating here is a very prominent groove. In this -particular case, Q-1 has displaced slightly in the mechanics of -photography so that the lower broad shoulder that you see here of this -heavy line does not match up. This should come up just slightly above. - -The photographer in printing chose this negative rather than another -one which would have been superior, and I apologize for this particular -photograph. - -But this groove, along with the other pattern shown on 609, also appear -prominently on Q-2 and Q-3 as prominent index marks. - -Mr. DULLES. I don't quite understand 610. This is the last one we have -just admitted. - -Are these ridges the same? This wouldn't be very clear for the -record--this is 609 that I have here. - -Mr. NICOL. No, this is not the same view. - -Mr. DULLES. That is not the same view at all. It is a different part of -the bullet. - -Mr. NICOL. This is rotated, both of them rotated simultaneously the -same amount to bring those into position here. - -Mr. DULLES. Now on 610, I don't see anything comparable on the Q-1 -bullet, a ridge comparable on the Q-1 bullet to the one I find on the -K-1 bullet. - -Mr. NICOL. The dividing line is right through here. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. - -Mr. NICOL. And it is this big groove gouged through there. - -Mr. DULLES. It stops there at that point? - -Mr. NICOL. It stops right here. This is the base of the bullet. The -lead is protruding, that is what you see down here. - -Mr. DULLES. I see. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Could you circle the mark you are discussing now? - -Mr. NICOL. That comprises the three positions of the comparison of Q-1 -and K-1. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you also take photographs of Q-2, which is our -Commission number 567? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir; this particular position is a comparison of Q-2 -and Q-1. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You took this photograph, Mr. Nicol? - -Mr. NICOL. Right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this admitted as 611? - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. - -(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 611 for -identification and received in evidence.) - -Mr. NICOL. Due to the extent of mutilation of these two projectiles, I -found it more advantageous to compare Q-1 and Q-2 rather than comparing -Q-2 and K-1. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In other words, you took Q-1, which you had already -identified as having been fired through--from the same rifle as K-1, -and compared it with Q-2 in the photograph? - -Mr. NICOL. Right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, in determining whether Q-2 had been fired from the -same rifle as K-1, that is, in determining whether the suspect bullet -had been fired from the same rifle as the test bullet, did you match up -Q-2 against the test bullet or against Q-1? - -Mr. NICOL. I did both. But photographically, I could get a better -illustration between Q-1 and Q-2 rather than K-1, because what was -apparent was that the heavy groove here, which would be a projection -in the barrel, and, of course, being outstanding, would be subject -to rapid wear, had changed somewhat between the Q specimens and the -K specimens. And so in order to get closer to the actual time of the -original firing, it was advantageous to make a comparison of Q-1 and -Q-2. - -Mr. EISENBERG. But you arrived at a conclusion independently also on -the basis of K-1? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes, also on the basis of other striations which are not as -easily illustrated photographically, the reason being the mutilation of -the projectile. And here we are comparing a curved surface with a flat -surface, or a curved surface that is flattened out, and the geometry is -no longer the same. - -Mr. EISENBERG. But you did compare Q-2 to K-1 under the microscope? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And did you arrive at a positive conclusion? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes, I did. It is my conclusion that the same weapon that -fired K-1 fired Q-2. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So the photograph that compares Q-1 and Q-2 is only for -illustrative purposes? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. For clarification purposes, am I correct that Q-2 is the -mutilated fractured bullet that was found in the car? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. And was Q-3 in such a situation that it furnished any -useful test or not? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes; I could use it for comparison. - -Mr. DULLES. That was the other part, or separate part found in the -President's car? - -Mr. NICOL. Q-2 is the nose. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes, I remember that. I looked at that. - -Mr. NICOL. You see, what I have to work with is this flat back portion -there, as against the round part, and of course the geometry is just -not the same. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You were pointing just now to---- - -Mr. NICOL. Q-2. - -Mr. DULLES. Q-2 is the nose and Q-3 is the base? - -Mr. NICOL. Base portion, correct. - -Mr. DULLES. Of the fractured bullet. - -Mr. NICOL. Or bullets. - -Mr. DULLES. Or bullets. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you had just begun to show us photograph 611. - -Mr. NICOL. 611 represents, for purposes of illustration--it represents -Q-1 on the right and Q-2 on the left, and the major mark that I -referred to on the comparison of K-1 and Q-1 is represented by this -deep gouge across the field here. There are also other smaller -striations that are in the match, above it. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You now show me a photograph of Q-l and Q-3? - -Mr. NICOL. Right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you take this photograph? - -Mr. NICOL. I did. - -Mr. DULLES. It will be admitted as Commission Exhibit 612. - -(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 612 and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Again I ask, Mr. Nicol, whether in arriving at your -conclusion you made a comparison of Q-3 directly against K-1? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir; I did. And the purpose here, as expressed before, -is that the illustration seemed to be better between Q-1 and Q-3, as -far as the photographic presentation was concerned. - -We have here Q-1 on the right and Q-3 on the left. Just down at the -base portion of Q-1, just the small portion visible here, there is a -group of very prominent marks that are in a match relationship there. -These are the same group referred to in---- - -Mr. DULLES. That is Q-1 and Q-3 that Mr. Rhyne is looking at? - -Mr. RHYNE. Yes. - -Mr. NICOL. It would be the same area as referred to in 609. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, does that complete your photographs of the three -bullets in Exhibits 399, 567, and 569? - -Mr. NICOL. That's right--against Commission Exhibit 572. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Nicol, I hand you Commission Exhibit 573 and -I ask you whether you are familiar with this item, which I state for -the record is a bullet found inside the Walker residence after the -attempted assassination of General Walker. - -Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir; I have seen this. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is your mark on that? - -Mr. NICOL. Correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Nicol, did you make an examination of Commission -Exhibit 573 to determine whether it was fired from the same rifle as -Commission Exhibit 572, which we have--one of which we have also been -calling K-1? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And what was your conclusion? - -Mr. NICOL. I found that within the limits that Commission Exhibit 573 -is badly mutilated as a result of having struck some hard object on the -side--that the class characteristics generally correspond, that is to -say it would be fired from a weapon of comparable rifling to Commission -Exhibit 572. Then looking at an area which I can best describe on 609 -as being a burr that develops along the edge of the rifling, I found -both on the upper surface, which would be the groove impression, and -along on the shoulder, quite a few points, individual characteristics, -which matched up in each of the positions which were visible. - -Because of the mutilation I was not able to put these in the kind of -a match relationship that would suggest a positive identification. -However, I did not find anything on Commission Exhibit 573 that was -incompatible with Commission Exhibit 572, so without going to the -degree of saying that there is a positive identification, I would -express it this way--that there is a fair probability that Commission -Exhibit 573 was fired from the same weapon that fired 672. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Nicol, we had testimony from a Mr. Frazier -yesterday of the FBI Firearms Section, and he testified that the FBI -does not make probable identifications, but merely positive or negative -identifications. - -Mr. NICOL. I am aware of their position. This is not, I am sure, -arrived at without careful consideration. However, to say that because -one does not find sufficient marks for identification that it is a -negative, I think is going overboard in the other direction. And for -purposes of probative value, for whatever it might be worth, in the -absence of very definite negative evidence, I think it is permissible -to say that in an exhibit such as 573 there is enough on it to say -that it could have come, and even perhaps a little stronger, to say -that it probably came from this, without going so far as to say to the -exclusion of all other guns. This I could not do. - -Mr. DULLES (addressing Mr. Eisenberg). Would you refresh my memory as to -this other exhibit--I don't remember--is 573 the actual bullet that was -fired and mutilated in the Walker attempt? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. And 572 is what? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Those are the test bullets fired by the FBI. - -Mr. DULLES. I was a little puzzled by the order. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. That is just the order in which they were -introduced in evidence. - -Mr. DULLES. And really 573 came before 572 in terms of time. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. That clears it up for me. - -Mr. NICOL. This is the condition of the bullet. - -Mr. DULLES. I have seen the bullet, yes. - -Mr. NICOL. It is in sad shape, to say the least. - -Mr. EISENBERG. As I understand your testimony, therefore, you feel that -there are sufficient identical microscopic characteristics on 572 and -573 to say that they were probably fired from the same weapon, but not -enough to say that they were definitely fired from the same weapon. - -Mr. NICOL. Yes. My opinion would be based upon the finding of families -of lines that would be of the order of two to four fine striations on -the burr that I referred to. For a stronger identification, I would -want a larger group, I would want perhaps five or six in a given area, -all matching in terms of contour as well as position. But this I did -not find. And so for that reason, I would not want to express this as -a positive finding. However, I would not want to be misunderstood or -suggest that this could not have come from that particular gun. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you say burr. This is a burr in the barrel of the -rifle which produced---- - -Mr. NICOL. No, I believe it is the result of a displacement of metal as -the land impresses into the jacket material, and actually machines up a -burr along here on the driving edge. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So is there an extrusion on--on the rifle barrel which -would produce that? - -Mr. NICOL. It may have been true at one time. It appeared at some point -in the passage through the barrel, this portion of the jacket curled up -and subsequently before it left the barrel was touched by the rifling, -so that it is now flat and even. When I refer to it as a burr, it is -not raised up. It is even with the rest of this surface. But you can -see the definite outline of that burr at the land edge. - -(At this point the Chairman entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, would this be caused by an extrusion in the barrel -or a concavity in the barrel? - -Mr. NICOL. It is probably the result of erosion back at the chamber, -back at the rear of the barrel, along the land edge here, and then -as the bullet gets to the end of the barrel, pressures decrease, so -erosion also decreases, and therefore there is still rifling enough -left to press this down and make some impression on the projectile -itself. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And does this lie within a land impression, or the edge -of a land impression? - -Mr. NICOL. It would be actually in the groove impression. - -Mr. EISENBERG. In the groove impression of the bullet? - -Mr. NICOL. Of the bullet. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you found this same mark on the Walker bullet as -you found on the bullets that were---- - -Mr. NICOL. All the Q specimens and the K specimens had this -characteristic burr. Now, I could not honestly say that this would -not be found, the burr would not be found on other weapons of similar -construction, similar velocity. However, the fine lines that you can -see visible in this photograph, by which an identification could be -made, would be the same individual characteristics as any other fine -lines on the rifling impression. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Nicol, was this burr in the same position in -its relation to the edge of the groove on what we have been calling the -Walker bullet as it was in the other bullets? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir. And, as a matter of fact, repeated in about the -same extent in those land positions and groove positions which are -still visible on that projectile. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So that you not only have the existence of the burr, -but you have it at a characteristic distance from the edge of a groove -impression? - -Mr. NICOL. Correct. And while the contour matched, this is not as -significant, because any two guns manufactured with the same rifling -cutter, as perhaps a production weapon like this would be, would have -the same contour characteristics. So this would not necessarily be -definitive. But the presence of those individual characteristics which -are referred to, although not sufficient for a positive, certainly -would indicate that there is a possibility that this is fired from that -particular gun. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Were you able to secure photographs of this Walker -bullet under the microscope? - -Mr. NICOL. No; I could not, because what I would be comparing would be -a curved surface that is flattened out with the test bullets, which -would be still in curved geometry. So that while I might get one point -in match, the others, you see, would be spread out. So that--actually, -an identification of that kind is made in a dynamic fashion. That is -to say, one bullet is slid and the other bullet is rotated. So that it -is in a sense unfolding the curved bullet so that it resembles in a -progressive way the flattened out projectile. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Nicol, I now hand you Commission Exhibit--well, -before I go into that, is there any further testimony you wish to give -on the subject of the rifle bullets? - -Mr. NICOL. No. The only other work I did on it was with respect to -an examination of the nose of Q-1 to ascertain whether there was any -evidence of ricochet or perhaps contact with fabric and so on. - -However, although there were some fine striations on there, there was -nothing of such a nature that it would suggest a pattern, like a weave -pattern or anything of that nature. So that except for the nick, which -I understand has been explained as a site where spectrographic tests -were conduced, no further tests were run on either of those projectiles. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. - -For the record, the nick which Mr. Nicol refers to was in the nose of -what was given to you as Q-1--and which I have been informed was a bit -of metal that was taken out by the FBI to make a spectrographic test on -the chemical composition of the bullet, and therefore was not produced -in the process of firing the bullet. - -Now, Mr. Nicol, I hand you Commission Exhibits 545, 543, and 544, -which for the record consist of three shells, three rifle cartridge -cases, which were found on the sixth floor of the TSBD building at -the easternmost corner of the south face. I ask you whether you are -familiar with those shells? - -Mr. DULLES. They bear your mark? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir; there is a little JDN inscribed very lightly under -the Q position. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You are familiar with these shells? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir. And these were given to me by you on the same day -I received the projectiles. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I hand you Commission Exhibit 557, which also consists -of--which consists of two expended shells, and I ask you whether you -are familiar with them. - -Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir. These are the specimens, the two shells which I -used as standards or tests to compare against the other three fired -cartridge cases. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And you obtained those from what source? - -Mr. NICOL. I obtained these from Mr. Eisenberg on the 24th of March -here in this office. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Again for the record, I obtained these shells from the -FBI and turned them over directly to Mr. Nicol, and they have been -identified earlier as having been fired by the FBI from Exhibit 139, -the rifle found on the sixth floor of the TSBD building. - -Now, Mr. Nicol, did you examine the shells in Exhibits 543, 544, and -545 to determine whether they had been fired from the same rifle as -fired the shells in Exhibit 557? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And what was your conclusion? - -Mr. NICOL. Based upon the similarity of the firing-pin impressions and -the breech-block markings, as well as ejector and extractor marks, it -is my opinion that all three of the exhibits, 545, 543, and 544, were -fired in the same weapon as fired Exhibit 557. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Nicol, did you take photographs of the various -shells under the microscope? - -Mr. NICOL. I took photographs of the specimen which I referred to, or -was referred to, as Q-48, which would be this. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. That is Commission Exhibit 545. - -Mr. NICOL. These were also taken under the comparison microscope in the -same fashion as the other specimens. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And these were taken by you? - -Mr. NICOL. These were taken by me. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I ask permission to introduce this as -Exhibit 613. - -Mr. DULLES. It may be received. - -(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 613 and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you have extra copies of this photograph? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes; I do. - -Mr. EISENBERG. By use of this photograph, could you explain some of the -markings on Q-48, which is illustrated on the left-hand side and which -is Commission Exhibit 545, and K-1, which is on the right-hand side, -which is the test cartridge, which led you to the conclusion that both -shells were fired from the same rifle? - -Mr. DULLES. 545 is one of the shells found on the sixth floor? - -Mr. EISENBERG. That's correct. - -Mr. NICOL. This was the lone one that was found, I understand. - -Mr. EISENBERG. L-o-n-e? - -Mr. NICOL. Right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Again, for the record, what Mr. Nicol is referring to is -that for some reason the shells were grouped into a group of two and a -group of one shells by the Dallas police, apparently on the basis that -two shells were very close together, and the third shell was a little -further away. But they were actually all within a quite small area. And -this is just an arbitrary grouping. - -Mr. NICOL. Now, although this compares--is a comparison of Q-48 and -K-1, Commission Exhibits 545 and 572--I'm sorry, 557--the same would -apply to comparable regions on Exhibits 543 and 544. - -I have placed arrows just for fiduciary marks so we can be looking at -the same area. - -Taking the top arrow, the area running across there is rather broad, an -eroded or corroded band, a valley. Below it is a fairly distinct mark. -The two small marks appear below it. And then on the projectile, at the -middle arrow, there is a broad flat plane. This plane has an irregular -contour, and what I have attempted to do is match a projection at the -lower portion of this--you also see that the contour at the top is -equivalent, insofar as the spatial area. - -Below, there are at the lower arrow some additional marks. These -begin to come to the edge of the primer. What we are looking at here -is actually the primer of the cartridge case, and the marks are the -breech-block markings as the result of the pressure of the set-back of -the shell. - -I have a sequence of these where the division moves across. Do you want -to introduce all of them? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; I think we should mark them in evidence. - -Mr. NICOL. All right. - -This would be the dividing line of the comparison bridge moved over a -small portion. You see the entire flat area here, but the match has now -shifted over slightly. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I am holding two photographs, both marked Q-48 and K-1. -You took both photographs? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. I wonder if, for clarification, we could take one of those -shells and see from what angle the photograph is taken and what is -covered in the photograph. I am a little confused. It doesn't make any -difference which one. - -Mr. NICOL. All right, sir. - -The area shown between this dark ring would represent the area between -these two grooves right here. Actually, it is the entire primer. This -is the firing-pin impression you are looking at right here. - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have these admitted, these last -photographs, as 614 and 615? - -Mr. DULLES. 614 and 615, exhibits as described, will be admitted. - -(The photographs referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 614 -and 615 and received in evidence.) - -Mr. NICOL. Now, this again illustrates Q-48 and K-1 with the position -now such that the division of the field is moved over approximately -a sixteenth of an inch from the position we looked at previously. -And again at the points indicated by the arrow, there are individual -characteristics running across the dividing line of the comparison in -both the top and bottom region. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, from the position of the firing-pin hole on Q-48, -on this last exhibit, it appears that it is not perfectly aligned with -the position of the firing-pin hole on K-1, Mr. Nicol. I am looking at -the mark on the right-hand side of Q-48. - -Mr. NICOL. Yes. And the purpose for the mis-alignment was in order -to show these smaller marks that appear right at the edge of the -firing-pin impression. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So that at the top the markings on Q48 and K-1 will not -run into each other, as well as on the bottom? - -Mr. NICOL. If they are divergent, of course, they will not. If they are -parallel, it makes no difference where the position is. - -Now, this is another setting, going to the opposite side of the -firing-pin impression, just translating the two cartridge cases the -same distance, so that we are now looking at a division at the other -side, and a comparison of the breech-block markings on the other side -of the two shells. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Again marked Q-48 and K-1. You took this photograph? - -Mr. NICOL. I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have permission to mark this 615? - -Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted. - -(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 615 and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. NICOL. Looking at the position of the upper arrow, there is a pair -of diagonal marks, a small mark immediately below it going down to the -lower part of the breech-block markings. There are a series of parallel -lines at approximately a 45-degree angle to the division of the bridge. -These were duplicated on both--all of the cartridge cases submitted. - -Mr. DULLES. I am not entirely clear in my mind what this demonstrates. - -Mr. NICOL. This is the basis upon which I arrived at the conclusion -that the two cartridge cases, K-1 and Q-48, were fired in the same -weapon. Actually, we could take a good match, such as shown here, or -even this one, and this would be sufficient. All I have done here is -repeat this by moving the two bullets, or the two cartridge cases -together the same translated distance, and then taking a series of -photographs at each particular position. So they represent actually the -same thing in each one. - -Mr. DULLES. As the hammer comes down on the cartridge, it makes a -distinctive mark, is that the idea? - -Mr. NICOL. No. I have not compared the firing-pin impression. What this -is is the setback of the shell against the breech face, against the -rear of the chamber. - -Mr. DULLES. The breech face makes an impression on the shell, and that -is a distinctive impression? - -Mr. NICOL. Very definitely, just as individual as a fingerprint. - -Mr. EISENBERG. These are two further photographs that you took, Mr. -Nicol? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And they both illustrate the same cartridge case, the -same two cartridge cases, the one questioned and the one known? - -Mr. NICOL. Right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And you have moved the hairline somewhat over to the -right? - -Mr. NICOL. Right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I introduce these as 616 and 617? - -Mr. DULLES. They shall be admitted. - -(The photographs described were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 616 and -617 and were received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I suggest that in the interest of time, -since these two photographs are merely continuations of the first -series, we go on to the next. - -Mr. Nicol, you have further photographs now. These are marked Q-48 and -K-1, and these are separate photographs? - -Mr. NICOL. Same photographs. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is submitted as 618, Mr. Chairman. - -Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted. - -(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 618 and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, was this photograph taken to show the same point as -the previous photographs? - -Mr. NICOL. Not exactly. This shows the rim of the two cartridge cases. -K-1 is just barely visible. Q-48 represents the other half of the -picture. And what we are looking at here in the match relationship, -at the point of the arrow, is a patch which represents the extractor -riding around the rim of the shell at the time that the cartridge was -introduced into the chamber. I might qualify that by saying this: in -order to be certain of the exact factor which produced this, I would -have had to examine the weapon and conducted some tests to ascertain -whether this was the extractor or the bolt pushing the cartridge into -the chamber when the mechanism was operated. - -In any case, the same tool, whether it be the extractor or the bolt, -produced this pattern of lines on both the known and the unknown -cartridge cases. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, did you find that mark repeated on the cartridge -case in other places? - -Mr. NICOL. This was repeated on Q-6 and 7. However, what you may be -referring to is another series which was only found on Q-6. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, could you get to that photograph you just -mentioned, Q-6? - -Mr. NICOL. I photographed the Q-6 in three different positions, which I -designated as 1, 2, and 3. - -Mr. DULLES. Have we identified Q-6 before on the record? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. Q-6, I think it is stated on the record, is the -equivalent of our Commission Exhibit 543. - -Mr. DULLES. What is 543? - -Mr. EISENBERG. 543 is a shell found in the TSBD building. - -Mr. NICOL. This is a photograph I took of the head--a portion of the -head of Q-6, or Commission Exhibit 543. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this admitted as 619, Mr. Chairman? - -Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted as 619. - -(The photograph described was marked Commission Exhibit No. 619 and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. NICOL. It might be well to introduce these, too. These are the same -as the ones which are mounted, except that I have cut them for the -purpose of matching them. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I would like to introduce these two photographs--also -taken by you, Mr. Nicol? - -Mr. NICOL. Right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Which are similar, or taken from this photograph. That -will be 620 and 621, Mr. Reporter. - -Mr. DULLES. Exhibits 620 and 621 as described will be admitted. - -(The photographs described were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 620 and -621 and were received in evidence.) - -Mr. NICOL. Perhaps in order to illustrate this we ought to get all the -three in, or at least another set, so I can show the match relationship -photographically--so that this represents another position of Q-6, or -543. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And this is a photograph which has not been admitted yet? - -Mr. NICOL. No. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this admitted as 622, please? - -Mr. DULLES. 622 and 623. - -(The items referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 622 and -623, and received in evidence.) - -Mr. DULLES. Would you just briefly describe these? - -Mr. NICOL. This represents another position of the cartridge case, the -head of the case--you are looking at the rim, and this is the portion -of the head stamp representing millimeter. This was a 6.5 millimeter. -You see just a portion of the "5." And what I will be talking about is -the marks down against the rim in all of these exhibits. - -Now, this is the same cartridge as represented by these other two -photographs, with a slight rotation. - -Now, we have only one which we might have to pass around. But if the -photograph 621 is placed in a position corresponding to the arrows, a -match of the fine striations, the pairs of broad lines as well as the -fine lines, can be seen. - -The reason that this could not be taken under the comparison microscope -is that because of course we cannot divide the cartridge case, so -that this had to be done photographically rather than being done on a -comparison basis. - -Now, this illustrates the fact that the same operation occurred twice -on this particular cartridge case. - -Do you want to introduce the third at this time? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. - -This is a photograph taken by you? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Of the same cartridge case? - -Mr. NICOL. Same cartridge case in a different position, rotated in a -different position. - -Mr. EISENBERG. May I have permission to introduce this as 624, Mr. -Chairman? - -Mr. DULLES. It may be admitted. - -(The photograph described was marked Commission Exhibit No. 624 and was -received in evidence.) - -Mr. NICOL. If we compare 624 and 621 in the same general fashion, again -we we have a match of the individual characteristics. So that again -the same mechanical operation occurred on this cartridge case, 543, -three different times, and in a rather random fashion. They are not the -angular relationship between each of these sets of patterns--it is not -divisible by any particular number. It is just a random occurrence. - -Associated with this is another mark that occurs on all three of the -positions, however not in any particular relationship to the group -of lines, and perhaps not as definitive. And it was on the basis of -the match of these patterns that I would conclude that this cartridge -had been introduced into a chamber at least three times prior to -its final firing. So that this would represent, you might say, a -practice or dry-run loading the gun and unloading it for purpose of -either determining its--how it functions, or whether it was in proper -function, or just for practice. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Just to review this testimony, Mr. Nicol, this is a mark -which occurs on the base of the cartridge case, is that correct? - -Mr. NICOL. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And are you able to say definitely whether it is an -extractor or an ejection mark or a chambering mark? - -Mr. NICOL. It appears to me to be an extractor mark, although I was not -able to identify this as similar to any extractor mark or any other -marks on either Q-7 or 544 or any of the tests, 557. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did extractor marks appear on those other cartridge -cases? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And when you say you were not able to identify them, do -you mean that they were not identical to or---- - -Mr. NICOL. They were absent. - -Mr. EISENBERG. They were absent? - -Mr. NICOL. Absent in all the other cases. - -Mr. EISENBERG. So that extractor marks did not appear in the other -cases? - -Mr. NICOL. Extractor marks appeared, but these marks did not appear. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Well, two sets of extractor marks have been put on---- - -Mr. NICOL. This would be possible--perhaps the violence with which the -weapon was activated in this particular incident--or it might be the -result of something not associated with the internal mechanism of the -weapon, but might be the result of the charger or the cartridge carrier -that is introduced into--the way the cartridges are introduced into the -magazine. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, what led you to the conclusion that this was an -extractor mark? - -Mr. NICOL. Only that it appears at the location of the cartridge case -where an extractor mark would normally be found. That is to say, this -would be the mark where the extractor strikes the edge of the case, and -then springs around as the cartridge is driven into the chamber. - -Mr. EISENBERG. But you could not definitely say whether it is an -extractor mark produced by the rifle through which the test bullets -you were given were fired? - -Mr. NICOL. No, sir; I could not. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, I am not quite clear as to why another set of marks -should have appeared on the other cases, which you also think are -extractor marks. - -Mr. NICOL. I cannot say that this could not have been produced by -another gun. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That might have been produced by another gun? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes. - -Mr. EISENBERG. But it was produced by the same source, whether it was -this gun or another gun, three different times? - -Mr. NICOL. Correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Somebody had done one operation, in your opinion, with -this cartridge at three different times? - -Mr. NICOL. Right. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, just to set this in context, I have taken the bolt -from Commission Exhibit 139, the rifle found on the sixth floor, and -could you show the Commission what the extractor is on this bolt? - -Mr. NICOL. The extractor is this semicircular piece extending back in -the bolt, and its purpose is to withdraw the cartridge from the chamber -at the time that the bolt is drawn back. It rides in the extractor -groove, which is machined in the head of the cartridge case. At the -time that the weapon is loaded, oftentimes this springs around, it -first contacts the rim of the cartridge case, and then springs around -the rim of the cartridge and produces marks such as these, or marks -such as I have illustrated on the three sets. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, is it possible that the reason the marks were -present on this cartridge but not on the other cartridge case--on this -cartridge case but not on the other cartridge cases you examined--is -because these marks were produced by dry firing as opposed to actual -firing? - -Mr. NICOL. This is possible. The weight of the empty shell would be -different of course from one which had a projectile in it, so that -its dynamics might be different, and it might produce a different -mark--although in the absence of accessibility of the weapon, or the -absence of these marks on the tests, I really am unable to say what -is the precise origin of those marks, except to speculate that they -are probably from the extractor, and that the second mark that appears -here, which I have indicated with a similar number, is probably an -ejector mark. - -Now, this, I might add, is a different type of ejector mark than the -mark found on the rim from the normal firing of these tests and the -evidence cartridges. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you stated that another mark appeared in all -three--associated in juxtaposition with the three marks you have been -describing? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes; and in the same angular relationship to a radii through -the center of the head. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, again, if it is an ejector mark, might the -difference have been caused by the fact that it may have been -associated with a dry firing rather than an actual firing? - -Mr. NICOL. That might be possible. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you think a person would apply a different bolt -pressure in a dry firing as opposed to an actual firing? - -Mr. NICOL. Well, since this is a manually operated weapon, it is quite -possible that no two operations are done with exactly the same force. -However, with reasonable reproduceability, all these marks appear to -the same depth and to the same extent, so that it would appear that -whatever produced them operated in identically the same fashion. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have anything you would like to add to your -testimony on the rifle bullets or the rifle cartridge cases, Mr. Nicol? - -Mr. NICOL. No, sir; I don't think so. - -Mr. EISENBERG. If there are no further questions on that particular -subject, I will proceed to the Tippit bullets and cartridge cases. - -Mr. DULLES. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. DULLES. Back on the record. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I hand you, Mr. Nicol, a group of four cartridge cases -marked Commission Exhibit 594, which, for the record, are cartridge -cases found in the area of the Tippit crime scene, and ask you whether -you are familiar with those cartridge cases? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir; these are cartridge cases which were given to me -on March 26th by Mr. Eisenberg. - -Mr. EISENBERG. They have your mark on them? - -Mr. NICOL. No; I made notes of the FBI designations, and these are the -same--they have the JH and the CK and RF and the Q designations that -were placed on there by the FBI. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Those initials are initials apparently of examining -agents? - -Mr. NICOL. I presume so. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I hand you Commission Exhibit 595 and ask you whether -you are familiar with the cartridge cases contained in that exhibit? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes; these are two fired cartridge cases designated K-3 by -the FBI and marked with their identification marks--CK, JH, and RF. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, for the record, these cartridge cases were earlier -identified as having been fired by the FBI in Commission Exhibit No. -143, the revolver believed to have been used to kill Officer Tippit. - -Also for the record, I obtained these cartridge cases, both Exhibit -595, which are test cases, and Exhibit 594, which are cases from the -murder scene, from the FBI, and transmitted them directly to Mr. Nicol -for his examination. - -Mr. Nicol, did you examine the cartridge cases in Exhibit 594 to -determine whether they had been fired from the weapon in which the -cartridge cases in Exhibit 595 had been fired? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And can you give us your conclusions? - -Mr. NICOL. It is my opinion, based upon the similarity of class and -individual characteristics, that the four cartridge cases in 594 were -fired in the same weapon as produced the cartridge cases in 595. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Nicol, did you take photographs of the comparisons? - -Mr. NICOL. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. EISENBERG. However, you are certain in your own mind of the -identification? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes; the marks on the firing pin particularly were very -definitive. Apparently this firing pin had been subjected to some -rather severe abuse, and there were numerous small and large striations -which could be matched up very easily. - -Mr. DULLES. What do you mean by severe abuse? - -Mr. NICOL. It appeared as though it had either been touched up with a -file, or in the initial manufacture the finishing operation was rather -crude. It was not what I would consider a well-finished firing pin. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Nicol, just to review your earlier testimony, as -I recall you stated that you do not use photographs to make your -identification, and usually do not testify with photographs? - -Mr. NICOL. That's correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. But that the other photographs were made as an -accommodation to us, at my request, so that the Commission could see -them? - -Mr. NICOL. The material I am just talking about could well have been -illustrated. However, I ran out of time. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Nicol, finally I hand you a group of four bullets -marked Commission Exhibits 602, 603, 604, and 605, which I state for -the record were recovered from the body of Officer Tippit, and a group -of two bullets marked Commission Exhibit 606, which I state for the -record were fired by the FBI through the revolver, Commission Exhibit -143. - -I ask you whether you are familiar with this group of exhibits. - -Mr. NICOL. These two are fired lead projectiles that were designated by -the FBI as K-3, companions to the tests in 595. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When you say companions, you mean they were given to -you---- - -Mr. NICOL. They were given to me simultaneously in an envelope, at that -time wrapped in cotton. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And the other Exhibits? - -Mr. NICOL. This was the projectile designated by the FBI, I believe, as -Q-13. - -This is a .38 Special projectile designated Q-502. That would -correspond to Commission Exhibit 603. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And the item you just identified? - -Mr. NICOL. Q-13 would correspond with 602. - -This is Q-501, corresponding to Exhibit 604. - -This is Q-500, corresponding to Exhibit 605. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Are you familiar with all of those? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes; I have seen and examined all of these. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you examine Exhibits 602 through 605 to determine -whether they have been fired from the same weapon as fired 606? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes; I did. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What was your conclusion? - -Mr. NICOL. Due to mutilation, I was not able to determine whether 605, -604, and 602 were fired in the same weapon. There were similarity of -class characteristics--that is to say, there is nothing evident that -would exclude the weapon. However, due to mutilation and apparent -variance between the size of the barrel and the size of the projectile, -the reproduction of individual characteristics was not good, and -therefore I was unable to arrive at a conclusion beyond that of saying -that the few lines that were found would indicate a modest possibility. -But I would not by any means say that I could be positive. - -However, on specimen 602--I'm sorry--603, which I have designated as -Q-502, I found sufficient individual characteristics to lead me to the -conclusion that that projectile was fired in the same weapon that fired -the projectiles in 606. - -Mr. EISENBERG. That is to the exclusion of all other weapons? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. EISENBERG. By the way, on the cartridge cases, that was also to the -exclusion of all other weapons? - -Mr. NICOL. Correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Did you take a photograph of this identified missile? - -Mr. NICOL. I took a photograph of one position, and that is shown here -as a comparison of K-3 and what I designated as Q-502. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this admitted? That would be -625. - -(The item described was marked Commission Exhibit No. 625 and received -in evidence.) - -Mr. EISENBERG. These arrows, Mr. Nicol, can you explain why they are -different? - -Mr. NICOL. This was one I made up originally and then decided that the -illustration would be ample with one arrow in that one position. - -Mr. DULLES. The one that is being admitted is the one-arrow photograph. - -Mr. EISENBERG. The arrows are placed on mechanically after the -photograph is developed? - -Mr. NICOL. That is correct. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And therefore it can vary? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes. This is not a part of the photographic process. - -Mr. EISENBERG. What is the magnification here, Mr. Nicol? - -Mr. NICOL. It would be pretty close to 25 to 30 diameters. I cannot -measure exactly the magnification. - -Mr. NICOL. This illustrates some of the lines, not all of them, -that I saw on a comparison of 502 and K-3. At the position of the -arrow, you are looking at the top of the groove; adjacent to it in -the lower portion is a land impression. And on that shoulder there -are approximately five or six matching lines. They are very fine -striations. These would be indicative of the fact that the same portion -of the barrel had ridden on both projectiles. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Well, now, there seems to be significantly less markings -here than on the bullets which were seen earlier, which had come from -the rifle. Does that same condition pertain when the bullet is viewed -under the microscope? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes. Of course, we are dealing with two different types of -ammunition. One is a lead projectile, and the other is a metal-case -projectile. And the ability of the metal-case projectile to pick up and -retain fine striations, even in spite of distortion and mutilation, far -exceeds what the lead projectile will do. - -Furthermore, the lead being a soft and low-melting-point material is -more subject to erosion of hot gases. So that there are many more -variables in the reproduction in terms of a lead projectile as over -against a metal-case projectile. - -Mr. EISENBERG. You found enough similarities to satisfy yourself that -there is an identification here? - -Mr. NICOL. I am satisfied that the two projectiles came from the same -weapon. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, we have received testimony that the weapon which is -marked Commission Exhibit 143 was rechambered but not rebarreled, so -that a .38 Special bullet fired through the barrel would be slightly -undersized. - -Mr. NICOL. Of course I have not had a chance to examine the weapon. But -on the information that you gave me, this was originally manufactured -for English ammunition, and has been rechambered for American domestic -ammunition, is that correct? - -Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. - -Mr. NICOL. The undersized bullet going through an oversized barrel of -course presents some serious identification problems, because it does -not go through with the same conformity as a projectile going through -the proper-sized barrel, so that it is apt to, you might say, skip and -bear more on one surface than on another in subsequent firings, so that -the identification is made more complex and it is expected that more -dissimilarities occur under those circumstances. - -However, at the points where it did reproduce at the land edges, as -shown in this photograph, I found sufficient lines of identification -to lead me to the conclusion that they had both been fired in the same -weapon. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is it consistent with the markings you found on this -bullet that it had been fired in a slightly oversized barrel? - -Mr. NICOL. Slight. However, due to the malleability of lead, it does -accommodate itself more than a metal-case projectile, and therefore the -evidence of being fired in an oversized barrel is not as pronounced -as it would be if it were fired, let's say, a .32-20 fired in a .38 -Special, which would be possible, and would give very distinct evidence -of the difference in the size of the bullet and the barrel. However, -in neither case is an identification completely precluded. What is -necessary is that tests are available which have borne on the same -surface. If this is true, and if the marks have not been mutilated, -then an identification is still possible. - -Mr. EISENBERG. When you say the bullet will accommodate itself, you -mean it will expand to fill out all or part of the lands and grooves? - -Mr. NICOL. Yes. Actually, with the pressure on the base and the inertia -of the bullet, it is in a sense shorter and expanded in diameter to -accommodate for the larger-sized barrel. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Now, I was not clear whether you drew any conclusion on -the other three bullets--that is, did you definitely--find yourself -definitely unable to identify those bullets, or did you reach a -"probable" conclusion? - -Mr. NICOL. I would say there was nothing, no major marks to preclude -it. However, I was unable to find what would satisfy me to say that it -positively came from that particular weapon. So that I would place it -in the category of bullets which could have come from this particular -weapon, but not to the exclusion of all others. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Is this short of the "probable" category in which you -placed the Walker bullets, or is it in the same category? - -Mr. NICOL. This is in a gray area between black and white, and it is -somewhat nebulous to pin it down to a precise percentage dimension. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Nicol, were you able to identify the type of -bullet which is involved in each of these four exhibits--that is, the -manufacturer of 603, 602, 604, and 605? - -Mr. NICOL. No; I did not attempt this, because I did not have an -adequate reference collection against which to make the comparison. - -Mr. EISENBERG. I do not have any further questions, Mr. Chairman. - -The CHAIRMAN. I have no questions. - -Mr. RHYNE. No questions. - -Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Nicol, do you have anything you would like to add -before we conclude? - -Mr. NICOL. No; I think I have covered everything. - -Mr. DULLES. We want to thank you very much. - -Mr. EISENBERG. There is one further question I have. - -When you made your examination, were you aware of the conclusions which -any other examining agent or body had come to? - -Mr. NICOL. No. I of course was aware of the fact that tests were -conducted. However, I was not aware either through the press or any -other media as to the conclusions. This represents my own personal -conclusions without benefit of any other knowledge. - -Mr. EISENBERG. And do you know at this point what any other body has -come to in the way of conclusions? - -Mr. NICOL. No, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. I wonder if you would be willing to give us your views as -to the effectiveness of paraffin tests? - -Mr. NICOL. I have used the paraffin test both in case work and in -experiments, as an investigative aid. However, I have a very low level -of confidence in it--either as a positive or negative, as far as that's -concerned. - -Experimentally, as the literature well demonstrates, it is possible to -fire a gun and get nothing on the hands. It is also possible to take -people at random off the street and test them with the reagent which -is not specific for powder and find all kinds of reactions. And while -there are some "experts" who--and I say that with quotes--who allege -that they can differentiate one product from another, actually the -end product of the oxidation of diphenylamine is a definite quinoid -structure, which has only one blue color, and I am not sure how they -make this differentiation. I cannot do it. - -I have used it as an investigative aid with positive results if and -when I find in the cast a particle of powder that I can definitely -identify as powder--not just simply the reaction, but something I can -take out, put it under the microscope and I can say this is a particle -of powder. Then I will say that this hand has been in the presence of -the discharge of a weapon. - -Mr. DULLES. You do not need a paraffin test for that, do you? - -Mr. NICOL. I don't think so. I think if you actually examine the -subject's hands, you probably can find that. Although as a rule in the -laboratory we do not see the subject, and so this is the medium by -which we get a look at the surface of the hand. - -Sometime ago in Los Angeles a series of experiments was conducted -whereby--and this was on shooting victims, including only those where -they could be certain by other investigative means as to the exact -status of the case. One of the technicians placed the paraffin on the -hand. This was presented to the other technician who had no knowledge -of the case whatsoever. And that I guess must have included both the -controls of non-shooting victims as well as shooting victims. And the -net result was if this fellow almost flipped a coin he could be in the -ball park as far as whether or not this person had actually fired a -weapon. - -It just is not particularly accurate. - -I might go further to say that there have been several cases in which I -would say a fair amount of injustice was done to the defendant or the -suspect in the case simply because people have gone overboard on the -application of the paraffin test. - -It is one of these areas in which everyone would like a nice test. It -would certainly be beneficial. But it is not one in which a competent -technician places much confidence. - -Mr. DULLES. I understand that pipe smokers are quite likely to get -caught on these, on these tests. - -Mr. NICOL. Or someone who strikes a kitchen match, or in the spring, a -man fertilizing his lawn. A man working in the meatpacking industry, -where they preserve meats with nitrates, might also have difficulties. -Certain of the common things, such as urine, I think can be discounted, -because the diffused pattern can be easily determined. But as far as -pinpoints of striking a match, I could not differentiate one from the -other. - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much. - -Mr. NICOL. I realize this doesn't help. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Nicol, thank you very much, sir, for helping us. You -have been very helpful. - -Mr. NICOL. Thank you, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. We will recess at this time until 9 o'clock tomorrow -morning. - -(Whereupon, at 5:10 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -Transcriber's Notes: - - -Punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant -preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed. - -Misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be -due to mispronunciations were not changed. - -Some simple typographical errors were corrected. - -Inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained. - -Ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained. - -Occasional uses of "Mr." for "Mrs." and of "Mrs." for "Mr." corrected. - -Dubious repeated words, (e.g., "What took place by way of of -conversation?") retained. - -Several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied. - -Occasional periods that should be question marks not changed. - -Occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be -periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at -the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at -the beginning of a line). Some commas and semi-colons were printed so -faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and -corrected, but some almost certainly remain. - -The Index and illustrated Exhibits volumes of this series may not be -available at Project Gutenberg. - -Page 4: "Where is their main office?" was misprinted as "there"; -corrected here. - -Page 4: "No. I also visited my brother, in Yellow Springs, Ohio." was -misprinted as "visited by"; corrected here. - -Page 14: the name "James P. Hasty" should be "James P. Hosty"; not -changed here. - -Page 15: Misspelling in "It was unfortun that" not changed. - -Page 15: Misspellings in "the stuip Cuban consule was at fault" not -changed. - -Page 16: Misspelling in "was a rather lengthly one?" not changed. - -Page 25: "otherway" not changed. - -Page 27: "Did she evidence any" was misprinted as "he"; corrected here. - -Page 54: Possible missing word in "of the Randle home looking West -Fifth Street?" - -Page 95: "(Commission Exhibits Nos. 451 and 453 through 456 were -received in evidence.)" "456" was misprinted as "465" but printed -correctly two lines earlier; corrected here. - -Page 136: "and improved my ability to converse" misprinted as "by -ability"; corrected here. - -Page 157: "Mr. Berlin. Well, sir, it is on one of your interviews -here." was misprinted as "Mr. Brennan."; corrected here. - -Page 166: "were certain books--if you" probably should be "where"; not -changed. - -Page 186: "In other words, there is a little difference in your memory -there on this." was printed as part of a statement by Mr. Brennan, but -may have been said by someone else. - -Page 208: "Mr. Jarman. After the third shot was fired I would say it -was about a minute." was printed as "Mr. Ball"; corrected here. - -Page 361: The measurement in "This was a 5- by 71-cm defect" probably -was misprinted; not changed here. - -Page 373: "whether it was an entrance wound or an exit wound," should -end with a question mark instead of a comma. - -Page 409: "so what when the shot was fired" probably should be "so that -when". - -Page 414: "Would that trend to improve the shooter's marksmanship?" -probably should be "tend". - -Page 428: "This the cartridge case from the building, Exhibit 545." -probably should be "This is the". - -Page 477: "And then it was returned November 17, 1963." Incorrect date, -should be no earlier than November 23, 1963. - -Page 481: "So in you opinion" should be "your". - -Page 481: "Mr. Cunningham. Yes, sir; well--these would be very -difficult--in other" is an incomplete sentence. - -Page 481: "A small sample was taken off the noise" probably should be -"nose". - -Page 487: "the cast of both hand" was printed that way. - - - - - - - -End of the Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (3 of 26): Hearings -Vol. III (of 15), by The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - -*** END OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION - HEARINGS V3 *** - -***** This file should be named 44003.txt or 44003.zip ***** -This and all associated files of various formats will be found in: - http://www.gutenberg.org/4/4/0/0/44003/ - -Produced by Curtis Weyant, Charlene Taylor, Charlie Howard, -and the Online Distributed Proofreading Team at -http://www.pgdp.net. 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