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diff --git a/44003-0.txt b/44003-0.txt new file mode 100644 index 0000000..14a356c --- /dev/null +++ b/44003-0.txt @@ -0,0 +1,51936 @@ +*** START OF THE PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK 44003 *** + +Transcriber's Note: Stylized "V", "Y", and "Z" symbols are denoted as +=V=, =Y=, and =Z=. Italicized words are denoted with _underscores_. + + + + + INVESTIGATION OF + THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + HEARINGS + Before the President's Commission + on the Assassination + of President Kennedy + +PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, an Executive order creating a +Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating +to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the +subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and +S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon +the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine +witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas + +_Volume_ III + + +UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE + +WASHINGTON, D.C. + +U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964 + +For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. +Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402 + + + + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE + ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY + + + CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_ + + SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL + SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER + REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS + REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD + MR. ALLEN W. DULLES + MR. JOHN J. McCLOY + + + J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_ + + + _Assistant Counsel_ + + FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS + JOSEPH A. BALL + DAVID W. BELIN + WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr. + MELVIN ARON EISENBERG + BURT W. GRIFFIN + LEON D. HUBERT, Jr. + ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr. + WESLEY J. LIEBELER + NORMAN REDLICH + W. DAVID SLAWSON + ARLEN SPECTER + SAMUEL A. STERN + HOWARD P. WILLENS[A] + +[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the +Department of Justice. + + + _Staff Members_ + + PHILLIP BARSON + EDWARD A. CONROY + JOHN HART ELY + ALFRED GOLDBERG + MURRAY J. LAULICHT + ARTHUR MARMOR + RICHARD M. MOSK + JOHN J. O'BRIEN + STUART POLLAK + ALFREDDA SCOBEY + CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr. + + +Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found +in the Commission's _Report_. + + + + +Preface + + +The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume III: +Ruth Hyde Paine, an acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife; +Howard Leslie Brennan, who was present at the assassination scene; +Bonnie Ray Williams, Harold Norman, James Jarman, Jr., and Roy Sansom +Truly, Texas School Book Depository employees; Marrion L. Baker, +a Dallas motorcycle officer who was present at the assassination +scene; Mrs. Robert A. Reid, who was in the Texas School Book +Depository Building at the time of the assassination; Luke Mooney and +Eugene Boone, Dallas law enforcement officers who took part in the +investigative effort in the Texas School Book Depository Building +immediately following the assassination; Patrolman M. N. McDonald, who +apprehended Lee Harvey Oswald in the Texas Theatre; Helen Markham, +William W. Scoggins, Barbara Jeanette Davis, and Ted Callaway, who +were in the vicinity of the Tippit crime scene; Drs. Charles James +Carrico and Malcolm Perry, who attended President Kennedy at Parkland +Hospital; Robert A. Frazier, a firearms identification expert with the +Federal Bureau of Investigation; Ronald Simmons, an expert in weapons +evaluation with the U.S. Army Weapons Systems Division; Cortlandt +Cunningham, a firearms identification expert with the Federal Bureau of +Investigation; and Joseph D. Nicol, a firearms identification expert +with the Bureau of Criminal Identification and Investigation of the +Illinois Department of Public Safety. + + + + +Contents + + Page + Preface v + + Testimony of-- + Ruth Hyde Paine (resumed) 1 + Howard Leslie Brennan 140, 184, 211 + Bonnie Ray Williams 161 + Harold Norman 186 + James Jarman, Jr 198 + Roy Sansom Truly 212 + Marrion L. Baker 242 + Mrs. Robert A. Reid 270 + Luke Mooney 281 + Eugene Boone 291 + M. N. McDonald 295 + Helen Markham 305, 340 + William W. Scoggins 322 + Barbara Jeanette Davis 342 + Ted Callaway 351 + Charles James Carrico 357 + Malcolm Perry 366 + Robert A. Frazier 390 + Ronald Simmons 441 + Cortlandt Cunningham 451 + Joseph D. Nicol 496 + + +COMMISSION EXHIBITS INTRODUCED + + Exhibit No.: Page + 128 31 + 425 95 + 426 2 + 429 23 + 430 55 + 431 55 + 432 55 + 433 55 + 434 55 + 435 55 + 436 55 + 437 55 + 438 55 + 439 55 + 440 55 + 441 55 + 442 55 + 443 55 + 444 55 + 445 55 + 446 55 + 447 55 + 448 55 + 449 75 + 450 55 + 451 95 + 452 55 + 453 95 + 454 95 + 455 95 + 456 95 + 459-1 134 + 460 132 + 477 147 + 478 147 + 479 147 + 480 157 + 481 157 + 482 157 + 483 183 + 484 183 + 485 183 + 486 183 + 487 183 + 488 183 + 489 183 + 490 183 + 491 183 + 492 183 + 493 194 + 494 217 + 495 217 + 496 217 + 497 236 + 498 236 + 499 236 + 500 236 + 501 236 + 502 236 + 503 236 + 504 236 + 505 236 + 506 236 + 507 280 + 508 290 + 509 290 + 510 290 + 511 290 + 512 290 + 513 290 + 514 290 + 515 290 + 516 294 + 517 294 + 518 302 + 519 302 + 520 304 + 521 314 + 522 314 + 523 314 + 524 314 + 525 317 + 526 317 + 527 321 + 528 324 + 529 339 + 530 339 + 531 339 + 532 339 + 534 339 + 535 341 + 536 341 + 537 357 + 538 357 + 539 357 + 540 392 + 541 394 + 542 397 + 543 399 + 544 399 + 545 399 + 546 401 + 547 401 + 548 403 + 549 403 + 550 404 + 551 404 + 552 404 + 553 404 + 554 404 + 555 405 + 556 408 + 557 415 + 558 415 + 559 419 + 560 420 + 561 423 + 562 424 + 563 425 + 564 427 + 565 427 + 566 430 + 567 432 + 568 432 + 569 435 + 570 436 + 572 437 + 573 439 + 574 441 + 575 441 + 576 444 + 577 444 + 578 444 + 579 445 + 580 445 + 581 445 + 582 445 + 583 445 + 584 445 + 585 450 + 586 450 + 587 453 + 588 453 + 589 454 + 590 454 + 591 454 + 592 459 + 593 462 + 594 465 + 595 466 + 596 467 + 597 467 + 598 467 + 599 467 + 600 467 + 601 467 + 602 474 + 603 474 + 604 474 + 605 474 + 606 488 + 607 489 + 608 499 + 609 500 + 610 500 + 611 501 + 612 502 + 613 505 + 614 506 + 615 506 + 616 507 + 617 507 + 618 507 + 619 508 + 620 508 + 621 508 + 622 508 + 623 508 + 624 509 + 625 512 + + + + +Hearings Before the President's Commission + +on the + +Assassination of President Kennedy + + + + +_Thursday, March 19, 1964--Afternoon Session_ + +TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED + + +The President's Commission reconvened at 2:05 p.m. + +Mr. JENNER. May we proceed, Mr. Chairman? + +Mr. McCLOY. Yes; we are all ready whenever you are. You are still under +affirmation. + +Mr. JENNER. I was at the point of describing the driver's license +application, but before I do that, Mrs. Paine, may I hand you the +document again? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. It has been marked Commission Exhibit 426. You were making +a comparison with the block printing on that document with like block +printing that you testified yesterday had been written in your address +book. I have forgotten the exhibit number, but in your address book +which you have before you---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And the printing in your address book to which you were +addressing yourself was what? + +Mrs. PAINE. His printing of the place where he worked in April of 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. And that is Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall? + +Mrs. PAINE. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. You were comparing that printing which you saw him put in +your address book with what? + +Mrs. PAINE. The printing on this application for Texas driver's license. + +Mr. JENNER. And any particular printing on that application? + +Mrs. PAINE. Was put in in pen. I do observe that the printing here uses +a mixture of upper case and lower case letters, as does the printing in +my phone book, most of it being block upper case. + +Mr. JENNER. The form and shape of the printing in both of the documents +is---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Is similar. + +Mr. JENNER. Similar. All right, thank you. + +Mr. Chairman, because of the point raised by Representative Ford with +particular reference to the word "photographer" which, by the way, is +misspelled, it is spelled "f-o-t-o-g-r-a-p-e-r," and things of that +sort do occur as you have already noted in many of his writings, very +bad misspellings. + +Mr. McCLOY. Yes, his grammar seems to be better than this spelling. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. This form is an official form printed of the Texas +State License Bureau entitled "Application for Texas driver's license," +on the line provided for "name" there appears over "first name", "Lee"; +over "middle name", "Harvey"; and "last name", "Oswald." + +The second set of spaces, provisions for address, birth, and +occupation. He gives as his address, 2545 West Fifth Street, Irving, +Tex. Was that the address of their home when you first became +acquainted with them? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Is the address 2545 Irving Street familiar to you? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think it is 2515. + +Mr. JENNER. Perhaps we will have to have it interpreted by someone +else. It looks like a "4" to me, but it may be a "1." This birthday, +October 18, 1939. The age last birthday 24, and then under "occupation" +appears the word I have already related. Sex, male; color of eyes, +gray; weight, 146 pounds; race the letter "C"; color of hair, brown; +height, 5 foot 9 inches. + +Mr. McCLOY. Were you about to comment? + +Mrs. PAINE. I was interested in his comment on his race. + +Mr. JENNER. I assume C means Caucasian. There are a series of +questions, printed questions on the form, and he answered them, they +are from 1 to 12, as follows: + +"Question No. 1" he answers in the negative, "Have you ever held a +Texas license?" + +Question No. 2. All these are in the negative. + +"Have you ever been examined for a Texas license? + +"Have you ever held a license in any other State? + +"Have you ever been denied a license? + +"Has your license and driving privilege ever been suspended, revoked, +or canceled? + +"Have you ever been convicted of driving while intoxicated, failure to +stop and render aid, aggravated assault with a motor vehicle, negligent +homicide with a motor vehicle or murder with a motor vehicle?" + +All answered in the negative. + +"Have you ever been convicted of any other moving traffic violation? + +"Have you ever been involved as a driver in a motor vehicle accident? + +"Have you ever been subject to losses of consciousness or muscular +control? + +"Have you ever been addicted to the use of intoxicating liquor or +narcotic drugs? + +"Do you have any physical or mental defects?" + +And, lastly: "Have you ever been a patient in a hospital for mental +illness?" + +The side as to the driving record, that is the reverse side, nothing +appears thereon, and nothing in any portion of the form which deals +with the record of his examination. + +I am a little at a loss, Mr. Chairman, as to whether I should offer +this in evidence at the present moment, because it is a document found +among his effects in his room, and my statement of fact would be pure +hearsay. + +Mr. McCLOY. How did we get in possession of it? + +Mr. JENNER. It was supplied to us by the FBI. + +The document was turned over to the FBI. May I withhold offering the +document in evidence? We may have another witness who will be able to +qualify it. + +Mr. McCLOY. Who can identify it? + +Mr. JENNER. I am sure we will have a witness. We do want the document +in evidence. [Commission Exhibit No. 426 is also Commission Exhibit No. +112, vol. I, p. 113.] + +Identifying as Commission Exhibit 427 a form of employee identification +questionnaire of the Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall Co. Please examine Exhibit +427. I direct your attention to the signature in the lower left-hand +corner. Are you familiar with that signature? + +Mrs. PAINE. I can't say I am familiar with it. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussion with Lee Oswald relating +to his obtaining of a position with Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And when did that discussion occur? + +Mrs. PAINE. In New Orleans on the second trip, the end of September, +when we talked about the possibility of Marina's coming back to have +the baby in Texas where they could qualify as one year residents, he +equipped me to show that he had been in Texas, and in Dallas for a year +by giving me a receipt or part of a paycheck, I don't know just what it +was, with the Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall name on it, in October. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the purpose---- + +Mrs. PAINE. He was supplying me with documents that would admit her to +Parkland Hospital as a patient. He gave me his---- + +Mr. JENNER. To show the necessary---- + +Mrs. PAINE. That he had worked with Stovall. + +Mr. JENNER. And the necessary residential period of time in Texas? + +Mrs. PAINE. And the necessary residence. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Did you take that document with you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. And what did you do with it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Took it to Parkland Hospital. And subsequently returned it +to him. + +Mr. JENNER. For what purpose had you gone to Parkland Hospital? + +Mrs. PAINE. For prenatal care and care at the time of the birth of +Marina Oswald's second child. + +Mr. JENNER. And is Parkland Hospital a public institution in Dallas? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. With the necessary residential period of time, Marina, +if she had qualified in that respect, or did qualify then she could +receive treatment with respect to the birth of her child either at no +cost to her or at reduced cost, is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. I understood it to be cost fitted to their ability to pay. + +Mr. JENNER. And so you did, yourself, affirmatively arrange that? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. What arrangement? + +Mr. JENNER. Affirmatively. You did it yourself? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. We have now reached the summer period of 1963, and covered +some of it in part. My recollection of your testimony is that you +vacationed in the summer of 1963. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. You visited various members of your family up north? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You departed Irving, Tex., some time in July, is that +correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. I believe it was the 27th of July. + +Mr. JENNER. And just tell us whom of your family you visited and where +you visited, without telling us what you did. + +Mrs. PAINE. I visited my mother-in-law and stepfather-in-law. + +Mr. JENNER. That is Mr. and Mrs. Young, Arthur Young? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. In Paoli, Pa.? + +Mrs. PAINE. I first went to Naushon Island off the coast of +Massachusetts. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you driving in the station wagon? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was. + +Mr. JENNER. With your children? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you went from there to where? Whom did you visit next? + +Mrs. PAINE. How detailed do you want to be? + +Mr. JENNER. Just tell us whom you visited is all. + +Mrs. PAINE. I stopped and saw Miss Mary Forman, in Connecticut, one +night. + +Mr. JENNER. She is an old friend of yours? + +Mrs. PAINE. She is an old friend of mine from Columbus, Ohio, and went +on then to Paoli the next day, and stayed there, again with the Youngs, +until the early part of September. + +Mr. McCLOY. Is that Paoli, Pa.? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you visit your mother and your father or either of them? + +Mrs. PAINE. My father came to Paoli and visited me there. + +Mr. JENNER. Did I ask you yesterday, Mrs. Paine, and please forgive me +if this is a repetition, the occupation of your father. + +Mrs. PAINE. He is an insurance underwriter; he composes the fine print. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he at one time an actuary? + +Mrs. PAINE. What does actuary mean? + +Mr. JENNER. A man who computes the probabilities and works in +connection with---- + +Mrs. PAINE. He may be. I am not certain exactly what his position is. + +Mr. JENNER. For what company, please? + +Mrs. PAINE. The Nationwide Insurance Company. + +Mr. JENNER. Where is their main office? + +Mrs. PAINE. In Columbus, Ohio. + +Mr. JENNER. Your father visited you at Paoli. Did you see your mother +during that summer period? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. I saw her briefly on the way to Naushon Island, +and then again I saw her on my way back to the south and west, in +Columbus, Ohio. + +Mr. JENNER. At Columbus, she was living there then? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see your sister on that trip? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. And where did you see her? + +Mrs. PAINE. She lives in suburban Washington, and I saw here there +at her home. I also saw Michael's brother, and his wife, who live in +Baltimore. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you identify Michael's brother, please? + +Mrs. PAINE. His name is Cameron Paine, C-a-m-e-r-o-n. + +Mr. JENNER. What is his occupation or business? + +Mrs. PAINE. He works with Social Security. + +Mr. JENNER. For the State or the United States Government? + +Mrs. PAINE. For the United States Government. + +Mr. JENNER. That covers generally the people you visited that summer? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. I also visited my brother, in Yellow Springs, Ohio. + +Mr. JENNER. That is your brother, the physician? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. I visited with friends in the Philadelphia +area, while I was at Paoli. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you mean by the term "friends" there to mean in the +sense I would mean friends? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Or members of the Friends Society? + +Mrs. PAINE. Some were both, but I meant it as personal friends. And +then I saw also friends, also both, capital F and small, in Richmond, +Ind., and then from there I headed directly south to New Orleans. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mrs. PAINE. Shall I go on to arrival at New Orleans? + +Mr. JENNER. This spanned a period of a little over 2 months, did it not? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was just short of 2 months total that I was away from my +home in Irving. + +Mr. JENNER. And in the meantime you had had the correspondence with +Marina that you had related this morning, during the course of your +going along, had you? + +Mrs. PAINE. During that vacation she and I exchanged one letter each. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. Had you advised her that you were coming to New +Orleans? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. For what purpose? + +Mrs. PAINE. To visit. And to talk. + +Mr. JENNER. About what? + +Mrs. PAINE. To see if it was appropriate for her to come to my house +for the birth of the baby. + +Mr. JENNER. At that moment, at that time, when you were about to return +or about to go to New Orleans, this concept was limited to her coming +to be with you for the birth of the child? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. At least temporarily she abandoned the notion of joining +you on a semipermanent basis? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was abandoned. It was not taken up again. + +Mr. JENNER. You arrived in New Orleans? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. The 20th of September. + +Mr. McCLOY. Maybe you are going to get to this. Maybe I am +anticipating your case, so to speak, but during these visits that you +paid to your friends on this trip, did you talk about your association +with Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. + +Mr. McCLOY. You did? + +Mrs. PAINE. Quite a lot. It was rather an important thing to me. + +Mr. JENNER. I have some questions to put to Mrs. Paine on that subject, +but they are in the area of the collateral that I spoke of this +morning, so I did not go into them at the moment. + +Now, starting with your arrival in New Orleans, you got there in the +morning or afternoon? + +Mrs. PAINE. I arrived midafternoon, as I remember. + +Mr. JENNER. And you went directly to their home, did you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you find when you reached the home? + +Mrs. PAINE. I was expected. They had groceries bought. + +Mr. JENNER. Who was home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Marina and Lee, and the baby June. + +Mr. JENNER. I don't have a calendar before me. The 20th of September is +what day of the week? + +Mrs. PAINE. Is a Friday. + +Mr. JENNER. 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. I spent the night there that night and the succeeding 2 +nights. Lee who bought the groceries while I was there, was host. At +one point Mrs. Ruth Kloepfer, who has been previously mentioned, came +and visited with her sister--excuse me, with her two daughters. This +was after I had made a telephone call to her. + +Mr. JENNER. These daughters were adults or were they children? + +Mrs. PAINE. The daughters were grown daughters. + +Mr. JENNER. Grown? + +Mrs. PAINE. In college, college-age daughters, and one had been +studying Russian, didn't know very much. I was impressed with the role +that Lee took of the general host, talking with them, looking over some +slides that one of the daughters had brought of her trip, recent trip +to Russia, showing sights that they recognized, I guess, in Moscow. + +Mr. JENNER. That the girls recognized? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; that Lee and Marina recognized of Moscow, or Lee did, +at least. And he was very outgoing and warm and friendly. He seemed +in good spirits that weekend. I found him--he made a much better +impression on me, I will say, that weekend than the last weekend I had +seen him, which was in May. + +I could see, and it was the first time that I felt that he was +concerned about his wife's physical welfare and about where she could +go to have the baby, and he seemed distinctly relieved to consider the +possibility of her going to Dallas County and getting care through +Parkland Hospital, and clearly pleased that I wanted to offer this, and +pleased to have her go, which relieved my mind a good deal. + +I hadn't wanted to have such an arrangement come about without his +being interested in having it that way. + +Mr. JENNER. During the course of this, did you say you were there 3 +days? + +Mrs. PAINE. Three nights, two days. + +Mr. JENNER. Two days and three nights; there was then a discussion +between yourself and Marina, yourself on the one hand, Marina and Lee +on the other, in which it was determined that Marina would return with +you to Irving, Tex., for the purpose of having the birth of her child +in Irving? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And Lee did participate in those discussions? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, during the course of the time you were there, was +there any discussion of the fact that Lee was at that time jobless and +would be seeking a position? + +Mrs. PAINE. I knew from Marina's letters that he was out of work. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. We did have one short conversation and this was in English. +I began it. He was willing to proceed in English. + +Mr. JENNER. This is one of the few occasions in which he permitted +himself to speak with you in English? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. I asked him if he thought his application +was any impediment to his getting and keeping a job. He said he didn't +know, and went on to say that he had already lost his job when he was +arrested for passing out pro-Cuba literature here in New Orleans. And +he said he spent the night in jail, and I said, "Did Marina know that?" + +"Yes, she knew it." + +Mr. JENNER. I want you to finish the conversation. + +Mrs. PAINE. This was as much of a revelation, accurate revelation of +what he had done as I ever got from him. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine. I am going to get into that with you. + +I would like to have you finish the conversation first before you give +your reaction. + +Mrs. PAINE. That was the end of it. + +Mr. JENNER. That was the end? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, with respect to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee +activity, had you up to this moment heard of Lee Harvey Oswald's +activities, if any, of any character and to any extent, with respect to +the Fair Play for Cuba Committee? + +Mrs. PAINE. I had not heard of any such activities. + +The name of the committee was not mentioned. I did not know the +name of the committee until it appeared in the newspapers after the +assassination. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, how did Lee Harvey Oswald describe that? What did he +say? + +Mrs. PAINE. He said that he was passing out pro-Castro or pro-Cuba +literature, and that there were some anti-Castro people who also caused +some disturbance, and that he had spent the night in jail. + +Mr. JENNER. And did I understand you correctly to say that he assigned +that as a possible---- + +Mrs. PAINE. No, on the contrary. + +Mr. JENNER. As possibly having had some effect on his loss of position? + +Mrs. PAINE. On the contrary, he made the point that he had already lost +his job before this happened. + +Mr. JENNER. That he had lost his position before the Fair Play for Cuba +incident? + +Mrs. PAINE. So that he did not know, he could not cite an instance +where his application had made it difficult for him in his work. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you had conversation with Marina prior to this time in +which she might have suggested or did suggest that his application and +his history of having gone to Russia and then returned to the United +States as having an adverse effect on his efforts to obtain employment? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing of that nature was said. + +Mr. JENNER. That was never discussed in your presence? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it ever discussed in your presence or raised in your +presence by anybody other than Lee Harvey Oswald or Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. Not to my recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it ever discussed with you by anybody even though they +weren't present? By "they" I mean Lee and Marina. You recall none? This +is the first instance of any discussion of that character, and you +raised it, did you? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And you have exhausted your recollection of this particular +conversation, have you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I gather from your testimony that you found the relations +between Marina and Lee improved on this occasion? + +Mrs. PAINE. They certainly appeared to be improved. The weekend time +was certainly much more comfortable than the weekend in early May had +been when I first was in New Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. You described yesterday an irritability as between Marina +and Lee when you were there in the spring? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And that that had continued during all the time you were in +New Orleans. You found the situation different? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. On your return in the fall? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you have already related the incident about touring +Bourbon Street, and that occurred on this occasion, did it? + +Mrs. PAINE. During that weekend, yes; those days. + +Mr. JENNER. And Lee Harvey Oswald stayed home that evening or that day. +It was late in the day, was it, rather than the evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was early evening. + +Mr. JENNER. Early evening. What did he do at home, do you know? + +Mrs. PAINE. When we got back Marina noticed that the dishes had been +cleaned up and put away. I take it back, they had been washed, not put +away. And I believe he did some packing. + +Mr. JENNER. In anticipation of your returning to Irving, Tex., with +Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +I was impressed during these 2 days with his willingness to help with +the packing. He did virtually all the packing and all the loading of +the things into the car. I simply thought that gentlemanly of him +at the time. I have wondered since whether he wasn't doing it by +preference to having me handle it. + +Mr. JENNER. I was about to ask you your impression in that direction. +Did he seem eager to do the packing? + +Mrs. PAINE. He did, distinctly. + +Mr. JENNER. Distinctly eager? + +Mrs. PAINE. I recall he began as early, you see, as Saturday night and +we left Tuesday morning. + +Mr. JENNER. And you are aware of the fact he did some packing while you +and Marina were on tour? + +Mrs. PAINE. It couldn't have been Saturday night, because I only +arrived on Saturday. More likely it was Sunday. Is Bourbon Street open +on Sunday? + +Mr. JENNER. Bourbon Street is open all the time. + +Mrs. PAINE. Then it would have to be---- + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling at the time that he was quite +eager to do the packing? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And did you have the feeling it was just a touch out of the +ordinary? + +Mrs. PAINE. It didn't occur to me that it was. + +Mr. JENNER. But on reflection now, you think it was out of the ordinary? + +Mrs. PAINE. On reflection now I think it wasn't simply a gesture of the +gentleman. + +Mr. JENNER. But at the time it didn't arouse enough interest on your +part to have a question in your mind? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I would have expected it of other men, but this was the +first I saw him taking that much interest. + +Mr. JENNER. It did arrest your attention on that score, in any event? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you were there for 2 full days and 3 evenings. Would +you tell us, conserving your description in your words, what did you do +during these 2 days and 3 nights. When I say "you", I am including all +three of you. + +Mrs. PAINE. Of course, afternoons we usually spent in rest for the +children, having all small children, all of us having small children. + +Mr. JENNER. Whenever this doesn't include Lee Harvey Oswald would you +be good enough to tell us? + +Mrs. PAINE. When he was not present? + +Mr. JENNER. That is right. + +Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is that he was present most of the weekend. +He went out to buy groceries, came in with a cheery call to his two +girls, saying, "Yabutchski," which means girls, the Russian word for +girls, as he came in the door. It was more like Harvey than I had seen +him before. He remembered this time. I saw him reading a pocketbook. + +Mr. JENNER. The Commission is interested in his readings. To the best +of your ability to recall, tell us. You noticed it now, of course. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I don't recall the title of it. I do recall that I +loaned him a pocketbook at one point. I can't even recall what it was +about. But I might if I saw it. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it a book on any political subject? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Representative FORD. Was it an English book? + +Mrs. PAINE. But it was in English, unless it was a parallel text of +Russian-English short stories, something like that, I can't remember. +It might have been Reid's Ten Days That Shook the World, or something +like that, but I am not at all certain. I would have thought he would +have read that, anyway. + +Representative FORD. Was it a book that you recall having had with you +that summer? Ten Days---- + +Mrs. PAINE. It is a book I should still own, and I don't recall for +sure whether I have that one. + +Representative FORD. Ten Days That Shook the World? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am very shaky in my memory. I had prepared a collection +of books for the course in Russian at Saint Marks School, and they +included history and literature and English. + +Representative FORD. But you were still anticipating teaching Russian +at Saint Marks School in Irving? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right, and this was just part of a bibliography of +things of interest that included some of the more historical texts from +many points of view regarding Soviet life. + +Representative FORD. I interrupted you. + +Mr. JENNER. I was asking you to tell us in general what was done during +those 2 days and 3 nights. + +Mrs. PAINE. We went out to wash diapers at the local washiteria, and +stayed while they were done and went back. + +Mr. JENNER. You and Lee? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't think that he went. My recollection is that Marina +and I went. + +Mr. JENNER. He remained home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you visit with any of their in-laws? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did they visit while you were there? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did they come there? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. I have already referred to a visit from Mrs. Kloepfer, +with her two girls which must have been the day before we left or +Monday. + +No, Sunday, it must have been Sunday. It wasn't much time altogether, +because Sunday was the day before we left. + +Mr. JENNER. Is Mrs. Kloepfer a native American? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have no idea. She speaks natively. + +Mr. JENNER. But she does have a command of the Russian language? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no, no. Her daughter has had 1 year of Russian in +college, and was much too shy to begin to say anything, thoroughly +overwhelmed by meeting someone who really spoke. + +Mr. JENNER. I must have misinterpreted your testimony this morning. + +Mrs. PAINE. Her daughter had visited in the Soviet Union just recently +and had slides that she had taken that summer. + +Mr. JENNER. But Mrs. Kloepfer, as far as you are informed, had no +command of the Russian language? + +Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely none. She was the only person I knew to try to +contact to ask if she knew or could find anyone in New Orleans who knew +Russian, and she said she didn't know anyone, over the phone. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mrs. PAINE. And I, therefore, also tried to get Mrs. Blanchard to seek +out someone who could talk to Marina. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Blanchard had no command of the Russian language, as +far as you knew? + +Mrs. PAINE. I would be certain she didn't. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you described for us generally the course of events in +the 2 days and 3 nights you were there? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, much of the last portion, some of the last portion of +Sunday was spent packing up. It was a very well loaded automobile by +then, because I already had a great many of my own, including a boat +on the top of the car to which we attached the playpen, stroller, and +other things on top. I should describe in detail the packing, which was +another thing that made me feel that he did care for his wife. + +We left on Monday morning, yes, Monday morning early, the 23d, and it +seemed to me he was very sorry to see her go. They kissed goodbye and +we got in the car and I started down intending really to go no farther +than the first gas station because I had a soft rear tire and I wasn't +going to have a flat with this great pile of goods on top of not only +my car but my spare, so I went down to the first gas station that was +open a couple blocks down, and prepared to buy a tire. + +Lee having watched us, walked down to the gas station and talked and +visited while I arranged to have the tire changed, bought a new one +and had it changed. I felt he wished or thought he should be offering +something toward the cost of the tire. He said, "That sure is going to +cost a lot, isn't it?" And I said, "Yes; but car owners have to expect +that." This is as close as he came to offering financial help. But it +was at least a gesture. + +Mr. JENNER. Then there was no financial help given you? + +Mrs. PAINE. There was no financial help. + +Mr. JENNER. Given you by Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. In connection with the return of Marina to Irving, Tex.? + +Mrs. PAINE. And he did not at this time give her, so far as I know, any +small change or petty cash to take with her, whereas when he left her +in late April to go to my house, she to go to my house, and he to go to +New Orleans, he left $10 or so with her. She spent that on incidentals. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, did he ever, during all of the period of your +acquaintance with the Oswalds, ever offer any reimbursement financially +or anything at all to you? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; he never offered anything to me. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion between you and him on the subject? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. As close as we came to such discussion was saying that +when they had enough money and perhaps after Christmas they would get +an apartment again, and I judged, felt that he was saving money towards +renting a furnished apartment for his family. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, I used the term "offer." Did he ever offer? Did he in +fact ever give you any money? + +Mrs. PAINE. He in fact never gave me any money, either. He did give +Marina. + +Mr. JENNER. The one incident of which you are speaking or on other +occasions? + +Mrs. PAINE. There was that one incident in April. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. He did give her, I think, $10, just prior, or some time +close to the time of the assassination, because she planned to buy some +shoes. + +Mr. JENNER. Shoes for herself, or her children? + +Mrs. PAINE. For herself, flats. But when he gave that to her I am not +certain. I do know that we definitely planned to go out on Friday +afternoon, the 22d of November, to buy those shoes. We did not go. + +Mr. JENNER. That is you girls planned to do that? + +Mrs. PAINE. She and I did; yes. + +Representative FORD. Mr. Jenner, do you plan to ask questions about the +process of packing of the car? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; I do. Now, this improvement in the attitude of Lee +Harvey Oswald, arrested your deliberate attention--didn't it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it did. It was really the first I had felt any +sympathy for him at all. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any feeling that he, in turn, felt that he +might not be seeing Marina any more? + +Mrs. PAINE. I had no feeling of that whatever. + +Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever. + +Mrs. PAINE. He told me that he was going to try to look for work in +Houston, and possibly in Philadelphia; these were the two names he +mentioned. + +Mr. JENNER. We are interested in that, in this particular phase of the +investigation. Did he make that statement in your presence, in the +presence of Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it that this was elicited by a discussion of the +subject of his going to look for work after you girls had left, is that +correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. About what he would do after we left? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, would you repeat just what he said on that subject? + +Mrs. PAINE. He told me that he was going to go to Houston to look for +work, or possibly to Philadelphia. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about having any acquaintances or +friends in either of those towns? + +Mrs. PAINE. He did. You recalled to my mind he said he had a friend in +Houston. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he mention other towns he might undertake to visit? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't. Or any other friends. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any inference or did you infer from anything he +said or which might have been said in your presence that after you +girls left he intended to leave New Orleans? To look---- + +Mrs. PAINE. He was definitely planning to leave New Orleans after we +left. + +Mr. JENNER. Promptly? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You had that definite impression? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And he put it in terms of leaving New Orleans to go to +Houston, or what was the other town? + +Mrs. PAINE. Possibly Philadelphia. + +Mr. JENNER. Possibly Philadelphia. Now, during all that weekend, was +there any discussion of anybody going to Mexico? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of Mexico discussed at any time and in any +respect? + +Mrs. PAINE. Not at any time nor any respect. + +Mr. JENNER. On the trip back to Irving, Tex., did Marina say anything +on the subject of Mexico? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you girls discuss what Lee was going to do during this +interim period? + +Mrs. PAINE. Only to the extent that he was looking for a job, but I +think that discussion, my memory of it comes from a discussion with Lee +rather than a discussion with her. I may say that we never talked about +any particular time, he would see Marina again. + +Mr. JENNER. You did not? + +Mrs. PAINE. He kissed her a very fond goodbye, both at home and then +again at the gas station, and I felt he cared and he would certainly +see her. And this I recalled the other night. It should be put in here. +As he was giving me this material, I have already mentioned, that +indicated his claim to 1 year residence in Texas, I can't remember +just what I said that elicited it from him, but some reference to, +shall I say that you have gone, or how can I--what shall I say about +the husband, where is the husband? + +Mr. JENNER. Do the best in your own words. + +Mrs. PAINE. Shall I say that you have gone away or away looking for +work or something? What shall I say about you? + +Mr. JENNER. This is Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. This is in English now, this one English conversation. + +Mr. JENNER. By you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Apropos of being prepared to admit her to Parkland. I +asked, what shall I say about him, that he is gone or what? + +He said, "Oh, no, that might appear that I had abandoned her." + +And I was glad to hear him say that he didn't at all want it to appear +or to feel of himself that he had abandoned her. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything as to what representations you might +make to Parkland Hospital and other State authorities in that respect? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. On the trip back to--may I defer the packing until +Representative Ford returns--on the trip back to Irving, Tex., did you +and Marina discuss the subject matter of Dee's going to Houston, Tex., +or to Philadelphia to look for a job? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; we didn't. + +Mr. JENNER. At any time during the weekend you were in New Orleans or +driving from New Orleans to Irving, Tex., was the friend identified, +the supposed friend? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. In Houston, identified? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I remember wondering if there was one. + +Mr. JENNER. You wondered at the time? + +Mrs. PAINE. I wondered to myself if there was one. + +Mr. JENNER. What made you wonder? + +Mrs. PAINE. I may say, also, I wondered, as I have already indicated +for the Commission, I had wondered, from time to time, whether this +was a man who was working as a spy or in any way a threat to the +Nation, and I thought, "This is the first I have heard anything about a +contact. I am interested to know if this is a real thing or something +unreal." And waited to see really whether I would learn any more about +it. But this thought crossed my mind. + +Mr. JENNER. It did? Now, many of my questions are directed towards +trying to find out what this man did with his time. When he went job +hunting, according to some of the records here, he appeared to return +home rather promptly. That is, he would leave in the morning but he +would be home before noontime. + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh? + +Mr. JENNER. Did you notice anything of that nature? + +Mrs. PAINE. I never saw him when he was job hunting. The times in +New Orleans, of course, I wasn't there. The times in April he was +job hunting from a base of 214 Neely Street, and in October he was +operating from the base of the room on Beckley Street. So I never saw +him. + +Mr. JENNER. So that as far as--this I would like to bring out, Mr. +Chairman--as far as your contact with Lee Harvey Oswald as such, Mrs. +Paine, your opportunities for knowing what he did with his time were +limited, were they not? + +Mrs. PAINE. They were limited. + +Mr. JENNER. That is in the spring, there was this New Orleans period +when he was absent in New Orleans altogether during the 2 weeks that +Marina was with you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. It is the period preceding the trip to New Orleans that +they lived a little distance from you, and that was in a period of your +really becoming more acquainted with them. Were you aware of what Mr. +Oswald was doing during the daytime, or evening along in that period of +time? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. In the fall when you saw him then for 2 days and 3 nights +in the early fall of 1963, he was out of work. He was at the home +substantially all of that time? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You returned to Irving, then, and you didn't see him until +he appeared as you testified this morning, on October 4, 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, he was in your home from October 4, 1963, until what +was it--the 15th of October? Is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. He was not? + +Mrs. PAINE. Not at all. He was in the home for the weekend of October +4. I then took him to the bus around noon on the 7th, that is a Monday, +to the Intercity Bus between Irving and Dallas. You can't walk to it +from my house. There is no way to get anywhere from my house unless you +use a car. + +Mr. JENNER. We are interested in that, also, Mrs. Paine, about +his ability to get to your home from whatever means of public +transportation there was. Would you be good enough to describe the +problems in that connection? + +Mrs. PAINE. He called on the afternoon of the 4th. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you give us the problems first, the physical +problems? Where was the bus located? What was the bus terminal? How far +was it from your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. The bus terminal in Irving where you could get a bus going +to Dallas was several miles away, 2 to 3 miles away from my home, a 10 +minute car ride. + +Mr. JENNER. And what means of transportation was there from the bus +terminal to your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Walking? + +Mr. JENNER. Any public transportation. + +Mrs. PAINE. There was nothing public. + +Mr. JENNER. You would have to hitchhike or walk or be driven? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, there were occasions when you would have +to go and pick him up at the bus terminal? + +Mrs. PAINE. I recall at least one such occasion, and that was on the +12th of October, a Saturday, which was the next time he came out. + +Mr. JENNER. That was the next time following the October 4 weekend? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. When was the first time that you heard, or had any notice +of the fact that this man had been in Mexico, or possibly may have been +in Mexico? + +Mrs. PAINE. They are two different questions. I will answer the first +one. I heard that he had been in Mexico after the assassination in one +of the papers. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that the first time? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that was the first time. Looking back then, with that +knowledge, I could see that I might have guessed this from two other +things that had happened. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, give us them in sequence, please. + +Mrs. PAINE. One was, I can describe by an incident that took place at +our home, I am not certain which weekend, one of the times that Lee was +out. He wanted to drill a hole in a silver coin for Marina so she could +wear it around her neck, and presumed to use my husband's drill press, +which is one of the many things in the garage, and I complained. But he +convinced me that he knew how to operate it and knew just what he was +doing. + +So I said, all right, and he proceeded to drill a hole in this coin, +and then Marina showed it to me later. I didn't look closely at it. It +wasn't until--although I could have perfectly well in this situation. I +did see that it was a foreign coin. + +Mr. JENNER. It was a what? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was a foreign coin. It was not a coin I recognized. It +was about the size of a silver dollar, but not as thick, as I remember +it. And it was not then until perhaps a week or something less after +the assassination when an FBI agent asked me was there anything left +in the house that would be pertinent, and he and I went together and +looked in the drawer in the room where Marina had been staying, and +found there this drilled coin, looked at it closely, and it was a peso, +the Republic of Mexico. This is the first I had looked at it closely. +Also, with this peso was a Spanish-English Dictionary. + +My tendency to be very hesitant to look into other people's things was +rather put aside at this point, and I was very curious to see what this +book was, and I observed that the price of it, or what I took to be the +price was in a corner at the front was not in English money, and at the +back in his hand or somebody's hand in small scribble was the notation, +"Buy tickets for bull fight, get silver bracelet for Marina" and there +in the drawer also was a silver bracelet with the name Marina on it, +which I took to be associated with this notation. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it inscribed on the bracelet? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was inscribed, the name Marina. And some picture +postcards with no message, just a picture of Mexico City in this +dictionary, and these I gave to the---- + +Mr. JENNER. Had you seen any of these items in your home at anytime +prior to this occasion that you have now described? + +Mrs. PAINE. None of these items except the peso which I had not noticed +to be that, seen it, of course. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, that is one incident. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is one incident. Another refers to a rough draft of a +letter that Lee wrote and left this rough draft on my secretary desk. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you describe the incident? In the meantime, I will +obtain the rough draft here among my notes. + +Mrs. PAINE. All right. This was on the morning of November 9, Saturday. +He asked to use my typewriter, and I said he might. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Would you please state to the Commission why you +are reasonably firm that it was the morning of November 9? What arrests +your attention to that particular date? + +Mrs. PAINE. Because I remember the weekend that this note or rough +draft remained on my secretary desk. He spent the weekend on it. And +the weekend was close and its residence on that desk was stopped also +on the evening of Sunday, the 10th, when I moved everything in the +living room around; the whole arrangement of the furniture was changed, +so that I am very clear in my mind as to what weekend this was. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead. + +Mrs. PAINE. He was using the typewriter. I came and put June in her +high-chair near him at the table where he was typing, and he moved +something over what he was typing from, which aroused my curiosity. + +Mr. JENNER. Why did that arouse your curiosity? + +Mrs. PAINE. It appeared he didn't want me to see what he was writing or +to whom he was writing. I didn't know why he had covered it. If I had +peered around him, I could have looked at the typewriter and the page +in it, but I didn't. + +Mr. JENNER. It did make you curious? + +Mrs. PAINE. It did make me curious. Then, later that day, I noticed a +scrawling handwriting on a piece of paper on the corner at the top of +my secretary desk in the living room. It remained there. + +Sunday morning I was the first one up. I took a closer look at this, +a folded sheet of paper folded at the middle. The first sentence +arrested me because I knew it to be false. And for this reason I then +proceeded---- + +Mr. JENNER. Would you just hold it at that moment. This is for purposes +of identification, Mr. Chairman, rather than admission of the document +in evidence. I have marked pages 321 and 322 of Commission Document No. +385 generally referred to by the staff as the Gemberling Report. He is +an FBI agent. I have now placed that before the witness. You examined +that yesterday with me, did you not, Mrs. Paine? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. The document I am now showing you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that a transcript, a literal transcript of the document +you saw? + +Mrs. PAINE. Of course the document was in English, transcribing of what +was said; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. By transcript I meant that it has been retyped, that it is +literal. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is the document; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. That is interesting. You noticed that the document was in +English. + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You saw it. And it was folded at what point, now that you +have the transcript of it before you? + +Mrs. PAINE. At the top of what I could see of the paper. In other +words, it was just below the fold. It said, "The FBI is not now +interested in my activities." + +Mr. JENNER. Is that what arrested your attention? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you do? + +Mrs. PAINE. I then proceeded to read the whole note, wondering, knowing +this to be false, wondering why he was saying it. I was irritated to +have him writing a falsehood on my typewriter, I may say, too. I felt I +had some cause to look at it. + +Mr. JENNER. May I have your permission, Mr. Chairman. The document is +short. It is relevant to the witness' testimony, and might I read it +aloud in the record to draw your attention to it? + +Mr. McCLOY. Without objection. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, would you help me by reading it, since you have +it there. + +Mrs. PAINE. Do you want me to leave out all the crossed out---- + +Mr. JENNER. No; I wish you would indicate that too. + +Mrs. PAINE. "Dear Sirs: + +"This is to inform you of events since my interview with comrade +Kostine in the Embassy of the Soviet Union, Mexico City, Mexico." + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mrs. PAINE. He typed it early in the morning of that day because after +he typed it we went to the place where you get the test for drivers. It +was that same day. + +Mr. JENNER. It was election day and the driver's license place was +closed, is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And that was November 9? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now you have reached the point where you are reading the +letter on the morning of November 10. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right; after I had noticed that it lay on my desk +the previous evening. + +"I was unable to remain in Mexico City (because I considered +useless--)"--because--it is crossed out. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mr. Chairman. In this transcript wherever there +are words stricken out, the transcriber has placed those words in +parenthesis and transcribed the words, but then has written the words +"crossed out" to indicate in the original the words crossed out. + +Proceed, Mrs. Paine. + +Mrs. PAINE. "Indefinitely because of my (visa--crossed out) Mexican +visa restrictions which was for 15 days only. + +"(I had a--crossed out) I could not take a chance on applying for an +extension unless I used my real name so I returned to the U.S. + +"I and Marina Nicholyeva are now living in Dallas, Texas. (You all +ready ha--crossed out). + +"The FBI is not now interested in my activities in the progressive +organization FPCC of which I was secretary in (New Orleans, +La.--crossed out) New Orleans, Louisiana since I (am--crossed out) no +longer (connected with--crossed out) live in that state. + +"(November the November--crossed out) the FBI has visited us here in +Texas on November 1st. Agent of the FBI James P. Hasty warned me that +if I attempt to engage in FPCC activities in Texas the FBI will again +take an 'interest' in me. The agent also 'suggested' that my wife could +'remain in the U.S. under FBI protection', that is, she could (refuse +to return to the--crossed out) defect from the Soviet Union. Of course +I and my wife strongly protested these tactics by the notorious FBI. + +"(It was unfortun that the Soviet Embassy was unable to aid me in +Mexico City but--crossed out) I had not planned to contact the Mexico +City Embassy at all so of course they were unprepared for me. Had I +been able to reach Havana as planned (I could have contacted--crossed +out) the Soviet Embassy there (for the completion of would have +been able to help me get the necessary documents I required assist +me--crossed out) would have had time to assist me, but of course the +stuip Cuban consule was at fault here. I am glad he has since been +replaced by another." + +Mr. JENNER. Now I would like to ask you a few questions about your +reaction to that. You had read that in the quiet of your living room on +Sunday morning, the 10th of November. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And there were a number of things in that that you thought +were untrue. + +Mrs. PAINE. Several things I knew to be untrue. + +Mr. JENNER. You knew to be untrue. Were there things in there that +alarmed you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I would say so. + +Mr. JENNER. What were they? + +Mrs. PAINE. To me this--well, I read it and decided to make a copy. + +Mr. JENNER. Would having the document back before you help you? + +Mrs. PAINE. No, no. I was just trying to think what to say first. And +decided that I should have such a copy to give to an FBI agent coming +again, or to call. I was undecided what to do. Meantime I made a copy. + +Mr. JENNER. But you did have the instinct to report this to the FBI? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you made a copy of the document? + +Mrs. PAINE. And I made a copy of the document which should be among +your papers, because they have that too. And after having made it, +while the shower was running, I am not used to subterfuge in any way, +but then I put it back where it had been and it lay the rest of Sunday +on my desk top, and of course I observed this too. + +Mr. JENNER. That is that Lee didn't put it away, just left it out in +the room? + +Mrs. PAINE. That he didn't put it away or didn't seem to care or notice +or didn't recall that he had a rough draft lying around. I observed it +was untrue that the FBI was no longer interested in him. I observed it +was untrue that the FBI came---- + +Mr. JENNER. Why did you observe that that was untrue? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, the FBI came and they asked me, they said---- + +Mr. JENNER. Had the FBI been making inquiries of you prior to that time? + +Mrs. PAINE. They had been twice. + +Mr. JENNER. November 1 and---- + +Mrs. PAINE. November 1, and they told me the 5. I made no record of it +whatever. + +Mr. JENNER. But it was a few days later? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; a few days later. And the first visit I understood to +be a visit to convey to Marina that if any blackmail pressure was being +put upon her, because of relatives back home, that she was invited, if +she wished, to talk about this to the FBI. This is a far cry from being +told she could defect from the Soviet Union, very strong words, and +false both. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear anything at all insofar as the FBI is +concerned reported to you by Marina or Lee Harvey Oswald during all of +your acquaintance with either of them of any suggestion by the FBI or +anybody else that Marina defect in that context to the United States? + +Mrs. PAINE. No, absolutely not. + +Mr. JENNER. Or anything of similar import? + +Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of similar import. + +Mr. JENNER. I limited it to the FBI. Any agency of the Government of +the United States? + +Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of that sort. + +Mr. JENNER. And did you see or observe anything during all of that +period of your acquaintance, which stimulated you to think at all or +have any notion that any agency of the Government of the United States +was seeking to induce her to defect? + +Mrs. PAINE. To the United States? + +Mr. JENNER. To the United States. + +Mrs. PAINE. No, and her terminology in view of it was so completely +different from such stereotyped and loaded words that I was seeing as I +read this. What I was most struck with was what kind of man is this. + +Mr. JENNER. Is who? + +Mrs. PAINE. Why is Lee Oswald writing this? What kind of man? Here is +a false statement that she was invited to defect, false statement that +the FBI is no longer interested, false statement that he was present, +"they visited I and my wife." + +Mr. JENNER. Was he present? + +Mrs. PAINE. He was not present. False statement that "I and my wife +protested vigorously." Having not been present he could not protest. + +Mr. JENNER. He was not present when the FBI interviewed you on November +1. Was Marina present then? + +Mrs. PAINE. She was present. + +Mr. JENNER. And was Marina present when the FBI came later on November +5? + +Mrs. PAINE. She came into the room just after basically the very short +visit was concluded. + +Mr. JENNER. The second interview was a rather short one? + +Mrs. PAINE. The second interview was conducted standing up. He simply +asked me did I know the address. My memory had been refreshed by him +since. + +Mr. JENNER. The first interview, however, was a rather lengthly one? + +Mrs. PAINE. But it was not strictly speaking an interview. + +Mr. JENNER. What was it? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was, as Mr. Hosty has described to me later, and I think +this was my impression too of it at the time, an informal opening for +confidence. He presented himself. He talked. We conversed about the +weather, about Texas, about the end of the last World War and changes +in Germany at the time. + +He mentioned that the FBI is very careful in their investigations not +to bring anyone they suspect in public light until they have evidence +to convict him in a proper court of law, that they did not convict by +hearsay or public accusation. + +He asked me, and here I am answering why I thought it was false to say +the FBI is no longer interested in Lee Oswald; he asked first of all if +I knew did Lee live there, and I said "No." Did I know where he lived? +No, I didn't, but that it was in Dallas. + +Did I know where he worked? Yes, I did. + +And I said I thought Lee was very worried about losing this job, and +the agent said that well, it wasn't their custom to approach the +employer directly. I said that Lee would be there on the weekend, so +far as I knew, that he could be seen then, if he was interested in +talking to Lee. + +I want to return now to the fact that I had seen these gross falsehoods +and strong words, concluding with "notorious FBI" in this letter, +and gone to say I wondered whether any of it was true, including the +reference to going to Mexico, including the reference to using a false +name, and I still wonder if that was true or false that he used an +assumed name, though I no longer wonder whether he had actually gone. + +Mr. JENNER. There was a subsequent incident in which you did learn that +he used an assumed name, was there not? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, a week later. + +Mr. JENNER. We will get to that in a moment. But was this---- + +Mrs. PAINE. But this was the first indication I had that this man was +a good deal queerer than I thought, and it didn't tell me, perhaps it +should have but it didn't tell me just what sort of a queer he was. He +addressed it "Dear Sirs." It looked to me like someone trying to make +an impression, and choosing the words he thought were best to make that +impression, even including assumed name as a possible attempt to make +an impression on someone who was able to do espionage, but not to my +mind necessarily a picture of someone who was doing espionage, though I +left that open as a possibility, and thought I'd give it to the FBI and +let them conclude or add it to what they knew. + +I regret, and I would like to put this on the record, particularly two +things in my own actions prior to the time of the assassination. + +One, that I didn't make the connection between this phone number that I +had of where he lived and that of course this would produce for the FBI +agent who was asking the address of where he lived. + +Mr. JENNER. I will get to that, Mrs. Paine. + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, that is regret 1. + +Mr. JENNER. I don't want to cover too many subjects at the moment. + +Mrs. PAINE. But then of course you see in light of the events that +followed it is a pity that I didn't go directly instead of waiting for +the next visit, because the next visit was the 23d of November. + +Mr. JENNER. Now I am going to get to that. What did you do with your +copy of the letter? + +Mrs. PAINE. I put my copy of the letter away in an envelope in my desk. +I then, Sunday evening, also took the original. I decided to do that +Sunday evening. + +Mr. JENNER. He had left? + +Mrs. PAINE. No, he had not left. + +Mr. JENNER. He had not left? + +Mrs. PAINE. I asked the gentlemen present, it included Michael, to +come in and help me move the furniture around. I walked in and saw the +letter was still there and plunked it into my desk. We then moved all +the furniture. I then took it out of the desk and placed it. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you take it out of the desk? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't think he knew that I took it. Oh, that evening or +the next morning, I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. And this was the 10th of November? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any conversation with him about that? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. I came close to it. I was disturbed about it. I didn't +go to sleep right away. He was sitting up watching the late spy story, +if you will, on the TV, and I got up and sat there on the sofa with him +saying, "I can't speak," wanting to confront him with this and say, +"What is this?" But on the other hand I was somewhat fearful, and I +didn't know what to do. + +Representative FORD. Fearful in what way? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, if he was an agent, I would rather just give it to +the FBI, not to say "Look, I am watching you" by saying "What is this I +find on my desk." + +Mr. JENNER. Were you fearful of any physical harm? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I was not. + +Representative FORD. That is what I was concerned about. + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I was not, though I don't think I defined my fears. I +sat down and said I couldn't sleep and he said, "I guess you are real +upset about going to the lawyer tomorrow." + +He knew I had an appointment with my lawyer to discuss the possibility +of a divorce the next day, and that didn't happen to be what was +keeping me up that night, but I was indeed upset about the idea, and +it was thoughtful for him to think of it. But I let it rest there, and +we watched the story which he was interested in watching. And then I +excused myself and went to bed. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you do ultimately with your draft of the letter +and the original? + +Mrs. PAINE. The first appearance of an FBI person on the 23d of +November, I gave the original to them. The next day it probably was I +said I also had a copy and gave them that. I wanted to be shut of it. + +Mr. JENNER. So I take it, Mrs. Paine, you did not deliver either the +original or the copy or call attention to the original or the copy +with respect to the FBI. + +Mrs. PAINE. Prior. + +Mr. JENNER. Prior to the 23d did you say? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And what led you to hold onto this rather provocative +document? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is a rather provocative document. It provoked my doubts +about this fellow's normalcy more than it provoked thoughts that this +was the talk of an agent reporting in. But I wasn't sure. + +I of course made no--I didn't know him to be a violent person, had +no thought that he had this trait, possibility in him, absolutely no +connection with the President's coming. If I had, hindsight is so +much better, I would certainly have called the FBI's attention to it. +Supposing that I had? + +Mr. JENNER. If the FBI had returned, Mrs. Paine, as you indicated +during the course of your meeting with the FBI November 1, would you +have disclosed this document to the FBI? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I certainly think so. This was not something I was at +all comfortable in having even. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you expecting the FBI to return? + +Mrs. PAINE. I did expect them to come back. As I say, I had said that +Lee was here on weekends and so forth. It might have been a good time +to give them this document. But as far as I knew, and I know now +certainly, they had not seen him and they were still interested in +seeing him. + +Representative FORD. How did you copy the note? + +Mrs. PAINE. Handwritten. + +Representative FORD. Handwritten? + +Mrs. PAINE. I perhaps should put in here that Lee told me, and I +only reconstructed this a few weeks ago, that he went, after I gave +him--from the first visit of the FBI agent I took down the agent's name +and the number that is in the telephone book to call the FBI, and I +gave this to Lee the weekend he came. + +Mr. JENNER. You gave it to Lee? + +Mrs. PAINE. I gave it to Lee. + +Mr. JENNER. What weekend was that? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am told that came out on the 1st of November, so that +would have been the weekend of the 2d, the next day. + +Mr. JENNER. You have your calendar there. The 1st of November is what +day of the week? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is a Friday. Then he told me, it must have been the +following weekend, that same weekend of the 9th. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything when you gave him Agent Hosty's name on +the telephone? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Nothing at all? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall anything Lee said. I will go on as to the +recollections that came later. He told me that he had stopped at the +downtown office of the FBI and tried to see the agents and left a note. +And my impression of it is that this notice irritated. + +Mr. JENNER. Irritating? + +Mrs. PAINE. Irritated, that he left the note saying what he thought. +This is reconstructing my impression of the fellows bothering him and +his family, and this is my impression then. I couldn't say this was +specifically said to him later. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean he was irritated? + +Mrs. PAINE. He was irritated and he said, "They are trying to inhibit +my activities," and I said, "You passed your pamphlets," and could well +have gone on to say what I thought, but I don't believe I did go on to +say, that he could and should expect the FBI to be interested in him. + +He had gone to the Soviet Union, intended to become a citizen there, +and come back. He had just better adjust himself to being of interest +to them for years to come. + +Mr. JENNER. What did he say to that? + +Mrs. PAINE. Now as I say, this I didn't go on to say. This was my +feeling. + +I didn't actually go on to say this. I did say, "Don't be inhibited, +do what you think you should." But I was thinking in terms of passing +pamphlets or expressing a belief in Fidel Castro, if that is why he +had, I defend his right to express such a belief. I felt the FBI would +too and that he had no reason to be irritated. But then that was my +interpretation. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you given all of what he said and what you said, +however, on that occasion? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I will just go on to say that I learned only a few +weeks ago that he never did go into the FBI office. Of course knowing, +thinking that he had gone in, I thought that was sensible on his part. +But it appears to have been another lie. + +Mr. JENNER. I will return to that FBI visit in a moment. I want to +cover that as a separate subject. + +Representative Ford is interested in another subject. I would like +to return to the day or the period that your station wagon was being +parked just before you took off. You have already testified to the +fact, either earlier this afternoon or late this morning, that Lee +Harvey Oswald appeared to be quite active in doing packing. + +Mrs. PAINE. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. Of household wares or goods that were being taken back to +Irving, Tex. Were you present when the station wagon was loaded with +the various materials? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I was present for most if not all of that. + +Mr. JENNER. Who did that? + +Mrs. PAINE. He put the things in. I knew that we would spend one night +on the road, that there were certain things we would have to get too, +and I knew where these were, and he didn't, so that I talked about +where these things should be placed, and helped with some of the +binding, tying things to the boat on the car rack. + +Mr. JENNER. The boat on top of the station wagon? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now would you please tell us what there was in the way of +luggage placed in the station wagon? + +Mrs. PAINE. There again the two large duffels which were heavier than I +could move, he put those in. + +Mr. JENNER. Describe their appearance, please. + +Mrs. PAINE. Again stuffed full, a rumply outside. + +Mr. JENNER. With what? + +Mrs. PAINE. Rumply. + +Mr. JENNER. Rumply? No appearance of any hard object pushing outwards? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Against the sides or ends of the duffel bags? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You saw nothing with respect to those duffel bags which +might have led you to believe---- + +Mrs. PAINE. A board in it, no. + +Mr. JENNER. A tent pole, a long object, hard? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Nothing at all? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. And how many pieces of luggage? + +Mrs. PAINE. Again these same suitcases, 2 or 3, I think 3 including +quite a small one, and the little radio. + +Mr. JENNER. What about the zipper bag? + +Mrs. PAINE. That was there. I think so. Oh no, it probably wasn't. I +don't recall the zipper bag as being part of that. + +Mr. JENNER. I wish you would reflect a little on this because it is +important, Mrs. Paine, if you can remember it as accurately as possible. + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall the zipper bag among those things. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the zipper bag when you arrived in Irving? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think I saw him arrive with it himself, but I am not +certain. No, wait, that may not be because I didn't see him when he +first arrived. + +Mr. JENNER. When you arrived in Irving, Mrs. Paine, not when he arrived. + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that. I distinctly recall the duffels +because it was all I could do to get them off of the car and set them +on the grass until Michael could come and put them into the garage. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you distinctly recall the hard-sided luggage you +described yesterday? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All of the pieces that you saw? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I don't recall that it was all. I couldn't even +recall too well how many went down to New Orleans originally. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there more than one? + +Mrs. PAINE. There was certainly more than one. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you think there were more than two? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection as to whether there was a piece +of luggage still apart from the zipper bag, still in the apartment at +4907 Magazine Street when you girls pulled out to go back to Irving? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have no specific recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it fair to say it is your best recollection at the +moment that the zipper bag you have described earlier, you described +yesterday, was not placed in the station wagon, and did not return with +you to Irving? + +Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall it being in the station wagon. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, was there a separate long package of any kind? + +Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall such a package. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there a separate package of any character wrapped in a +blanket? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. There was a basket such as you use for hanging your +clothes. It carried exactly that, clothes and diapers, and they weren't +as neat as being in suitcases and duffels would imply. There was +leftovers stuffed in the corner, clothes and things, but rather open. + +Mr. JENNER. So you saw no long rectangular package of any kind or +character loaded in or placed in your station wagon? + +Mrs. PAINE. No, it doesn't mean it wasn't there, but I saw nothing of +that nature. + +Mr. JENNER. You saw nothing? + +Mrs. PAINE. I saw nothing. + +Mr. JENNER. When you arrived in Irving, Tex., were you present when +your station wagon was unpacked? + +Mrs. PAINE. Marina and I did that with the exception of the duffels. + +Mr. JENNER. You did it all yourself and you took out of the station +wagon everything in it other than the two duffel bags? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, in the process of removing everything other than the +two duffel bags on the occasion on the 24th of September 1963 when you +reached Irving, Tex., did you find or see any long rectangular package? + +Mrs. PAINE. I recall no such package. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see any kind of a package wrapped in the blanket? + +Mrs. PAINE. Not to my recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see any package---- + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall seeing the blanket either. + +Mr. JENNER. On that occasion? + +Mrs. PAINE. On that occasion, not until later. + +Mr. JENNER. Not until later. + +Representative FORD. Did you see the blanket in New Orleans? + +Mrs. PAINE. On the bed or something. I am asking myself. I don't recall +it specifically. + +Mr. JENNER. Of course we all know the blanket to which we are +referring, which I will ask you about in a moment. I might show it +to you at the moment, or at least ask you if it is the blanket. I am +exhibiting to the witness Commission Exhibit No. 140. Is this blanket +familiar to you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it is. + +Mr. JENNER. And give us the best recollection you have when you first +saw it. + +Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that I saw it on the floor of my +garage sometime in late October. + +Mr. JENNER. 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection of ever having seen it before +that time? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. I might say also now that I know certainly I have never +seen this binding until last night. + +Mr. JENNER. When you say "this binding," you are pointing to what +appears to be some black binding? + +Mrs. PAINE. Some hemstitching, it is sewn. + +Mr. JENNER. On the edge of the blanket. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. This binding was not apparent, did not show. + +Mr. JENNER. You never noticed the binding before, if the binding had +always been on it, is that what you mean to say? + +Mrs. PAINE. When I saw the blanket the binding was not showing. + +Representative FORD. How carefully did you analyze the blanket on the +previous occasions? + +Mrs. PAINE. I stepped over it. I didn't pick it up or look at it +closely. + +Representative FORD. Didn't turn it over? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Representative FORD. Didn't move it? + +Mrs. PAINE. No, I didn't. + +Representative FORD. So you only saw one surface more or less? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, only one surface, except I saw that it had been moved. + +Representative FORD. But you didn't move it yourself? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. In what shape, that is form, was the blanket when you first +saw it? And I take it you first saw it in your garage. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. And it was subsequent to the time that you and Marina had +returned to Irving? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you are certain that you did not see the blanket in +your station wagon when you arrived in Irving? + +Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall seeing the blanket in my station wagon. + +Mr. JENNER. And you didn't see it in their apartment at 4907 Magazine +Street when you were there? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall seeing it there. + +Mr. JENNER. Either in the spring or in the fall, is that true? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is true. + +Mr. JENNER. Now tell us--I take it from your testimony that the +blanket, when you first saw it in a garage, was in a configuration in +the form of a package? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was a long rectangle shape with the ends tucked in. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough to re-form that blanket so that it +is in the shape and the dimension when you first saw it? + +Mrs. PAINE. About like so. + +Mr. JENNER. For the record if you please, Mr. Chairman, the length of +the form is just exactly 45 inches, and it is across exactly 12 inches. + +Representative FORD. That is across lying flat. + +Mr. JENNER. Across lying flat, thank you. + +Now, what else about the form of the blanket did you notice on the +occasion when you first saw it on your garage floor? Anything else? + +Mrs. PAINE. I recall from either that occasion or another that there +were parallel strings around it. + +Mr. JENNER. Tied? + +Mrs. PAINE. Into a bundle, yes, 3 or 4. + +Mr. JENNER. How many were there? + +Mrs. PAINE. 3 or 4, I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. 3 or 4? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I suppose it would be four. It would be very well +spaced if it was only three, and I think they were closer than that. + +Mr. JENNER. Your best recollection now. + +Mrs. PAINE. Is four. + +Mr. JENNER. Rather than rationalization. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, there were four. + +Mr. JENNER. There were four string ties across the 12-inch side of the +blanket. Were those string ties pulled so they seemed to hold something +inside the blanket? + +Mrs. PAINE. They didn't seem particularly tight, but then I don't have +a strong recollection of them prior to the 22d. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever pick up that package? + +Mrs. PAINE. No, I never did. + +Mr. JENNER. That was wrapped in the blanket. Did you ever have any +discussion with Marina Oswald about the package in your garage? + +Mrs. PAINE. Not until the afternoon of the 22d. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see anybody move it about your garage at any time? + +Mrs. PAINE. No, I did not see anyone move it. + +Mr. JENNER. And how long after you returned to Texas did you notice +that package in your garage? + +Mrs. PAINE. I said I thought it was late October perhaps. I wouldn't be +at all certain about when I first noticed it. + +Mr. JENNER. And did you notice from time to time that it was in a +different position or places in your garage? + +Mrs. PAINE. I recall two places I saw it. + +Mr. JENNER. And the first was where? + +Mrs. PAINE. Over near--the radial saw, what do you call it, buzz saw? + +Mr. JENNER. Bandsaw. + +Mrs. PAINE. No, buzz saw. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh yes, a disc type, a buzz saw, near the buzz saw. Then on +the second occasion when you saw it, where was it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Over near the work bench in front of part of the work +bench, one end extending toward the bandsaw. + +Mr. JENNER. And on both of those occasions was the package lying flat +on the floor or was it upended? + +Mrs. PAINE. Flat on the floor. + +Mr. JENNER. And you never had any curiosity with respect to it to lead +you to step on it or feel it in any respect? + +Mrs. PAINE. No, I didn't. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have a lot of debris or articles in the garage? + +Mrs. PAINE. Indeed, and do yet. Our things and most of the Oswald +things were stored there. I have mentioned several pieces of machine +tools. + +Mr. JENNER. We identified the garage picture at the tail end of +yesterday, and I think the Chairman is seeking it. + +Mr. McCLOY. I am trying to find it now. + +Mrs. PAINE. That of course was taken more recently, but it is +reasonably typical of its condition at that time too. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. JENNER. This is a photograph numbered eight, entitled garage +interior, which I have marked with Commission number 429, and I now +exhibit that to Mrs. Paine. + +Are you familiar with what is depicted in that photograph? + +Mrs. PAINE. Very. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know when that photograph was taken? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was taken about 2 weeks ago. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you present? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And does it accurately depict everything that was there and +in its relative position at the time the picture was taken? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And it is your garage? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you locate on that, and I would like to have you +place an X at the point in that picture that you first saw the package? + +Mrs. PAINE. Underneath that box. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. You have written an arrow or X next to "on +floor" and it is underneath the box that is on the floor. + +Mrs. PAINE. It was in front as I recall it; this was the buzz saw I was +talking about, right here. + +Mr. JENNER. Right here the witness is pointing to the right hand upper +middle section of the photograph. + +Mr. DULLES. Is this the first location of the package? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was over on that side of the garage, towards the door +or---- + +Mr. DULLES. The first location of it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Toward what door, Mrs. Paine? + +Mrs. PAINE. Toward the front of the garage. + +Mr. JENNER. Where did you see it on the second occasion? + +Mrs. PAINE. Part of it in front of this work bench, one right under +this box here. + +Mr. JENNER. Put a double X here, between this workbench and this +bandsaw. + +Mrs. PAINE. On the floor. + +Mr. JENNER. The workbench and the bandsaw to which the witness is +pointing are on the left hand side of the photograph, the bandsaw being +about the upper middle. Is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The package was farther to the interior from the bench. + +Mr. JENNER. It was toward the back rather than toward the door? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was the other side of the bandsaw so it was farther to +the interior than its first location. + +Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 429 the +document which the witness has identified which in turn was identified +as Commission Exhibit 429. + +Mr. McCLOY. It will be admitted. + +(The photograph referred to, previously identified as Commission +Exhibit No. 429, was received in evidence.) + +Mr. JENNER. For the record, I am placing the rifle in the folded +blanket as Mrs. Paine folded it. This is being done without the rifle +being dismantled. + +May the record show, Mr. Chairman, that the rifle fits well in the +package from end to end, and it does not---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Can you make it flatter? + +Mr. JENNER. No; because the rifle is now in there. + +Mrs. PAINE. I just mean that---- + +Mr. JENNER. Was that about the appearance of the blanket wrapped +package that you saw on your garage floor? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; although I recall it as quite flat. + +Mr. JENNER. Flatter than it now appears to be? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But it is not a clear recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. You have a firm recollection that the package you saw was +of the length? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, definitely. + +Mr. JENNER. That is 45 inches, approximately. You had no occasion when +you stepped on the package---- + +Mrs. PAINE. I stepped over it. + +Mr. JENNER. You always stepped over it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; until the afternoon of the 22d. + +Mr. JENNER. By accident or otherwise, did you happen to come in contact +with it? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't know whether there was anything solid or hard in +it? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. DULLES. Did it look about the way this package looks? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. McCLOY. Except for the fact it had some cord around it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Representative FORD. When it had some cord around it, did the way it +was tied pull it in or distort the shape? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; it didn't distort the shape. + +Representative FORD. About the same shape even with the cord? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. The cords weren't pulled tight? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. They were relatively loosely tied? + +Mrs. PAINE. I recall this definite shape. + +Mr. JENNER. To hold the blanket in that form rather than to hold the +contents of the package firm, is that your impression? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. McCLOY. Are you going to ask about the husband's testimony in +connection with the moving of the package? + +Mr. JENNER. I did not intend to. + +Mr. McCLOY. I was not present but your husband testified he had moved +the blanket from time to time but had not opened it. Did he ever refer +to it? Did he ever speak to you about having had to move it while he +was---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Not until after the assassination. + +Mr. McCLOY. Not until after the assassination but before the +assassination he had not complained about its being there or any +difficulty in moving it? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not mention it, and I was not present when he +moved it. + +Representative FORD. Was he the person who used these various +woodworking pieces of equipment? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Representative FORD. Did he work in the garage? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, he had--he made the workbench, and he had worked in +the garage when he lived at the home and it has since been somewhat +filled up. + +Representative FORD. But during the time that you and Marina came back +he didn't work in the garage? + +Mrs. PAINE. He did still cut occasionally something on the saws. +Indeed, I did, too. I like to make children's blocks. I am trying to +think when I last, if it is pertinent, when I used the saw. + +Mr. McCLOY. Did you use the saw while the blanket was on floor? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe so. + +Mr. McCLOY. You had to step over the blanket to do that? + +Mrs. PAINE. Or around it. + +Mr. McCLOY. Or around it. But in the course of your use of the saw you +never had the necessity or the occasion to readjust the blanket or move +it in any way? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. DULLES. Did we get the three locations here? I only see two. + +Mr. JENNER. There were only two? + +Mrs. PAINE. Two that I recall. + +Mr. DULLES. Only two. + +Representative FORD. She made a mistake in the first drawing of the +second one. + +Mrs. PAINE. I touched it by mistake. + +Representative FORD. I think that ought to be clarified on the record. + +Mr. JENNER. On the right-hand side of Commission Exhibit 429 there is +an X or an arrow above which is written the words "on floor". That is +the first location point at which you saw the package? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. On the left-hand side, the lower half of the photograph +there is a double X. + +Mrs. PAINE. Which I could not put in enough to give the proportion. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean in the photograph? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that where you saw the package for the second time? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; as I have described it. The position I have described +is more accurate than the XX. + +Mr. JENNER. There is a red strip above the table with the tablecloth on +it. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is an accident with my hand. + +Mr. JENNER. That was an accident on your part? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. So there are only two locations? + +Mrs. PAINE. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Chairman, may I reinsert the rifle in the package, +on the opposite side from what it was before, and have the witness look +at it? + +Mr. McCLOY. You may. + +We are back on the record. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. Chairman, I have now placed the opposite side of the rifle to the +floor, and may the record show that the package is much flatter. The +rifle when inserted firstly was turned on the side of the bolt which +operates the rifle which forced it up higher. + +Now does the package look more familiar to you, Mrs. Paine? + +Mrs. PAINE. I recall it as being more like this, not as lumpy as the +other had been. + +Mr. JENNER. More in the form it is now? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now directing your attention to the rifle itself, which is +Commission Exhibit 139, when did you first see that rifle, if you have +ever seen it? + +Mrs. PAINE. I saw a rifle I judge to have been the same one at the +police station on the afternoon of November 22, I don't recall the +strap. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't recall at the time you saw it on the 22d of +November in the police station that it had a strap? + +Mrs. PAINE. It may well have had one but I don't specifically recall +it. I was interested in the sight. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you ever seen this rifle prior to the afternoon of +November 22? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.) + +Mr. JENNER. Now, we do have some particular interest, Mrs. Paine, in +the rifle strap. Had you ever had around your house a luggage strap or +a guitar strap similar to the strap that appears on Commission Exhibit +139? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; in fact, I don't recall ever seeing a strap of that +nature. + +Mr. JENNER. Whether in your home or anywhere else? + +Mrs. PAINE. Precisely. + +Mr. JENNER. And you are unable to identify or suggest its source? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. What do you have in your home, Mrs. Paine, by way of heavy +wrapping paper? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have the sort of paper you buy at the dime store to wrap +packages, about 36 inches long, coming in a roll. + +Mr. JENNER. Exhibiting to you Commission Exhibit No. 364, is the +wrapping paper that you have in your home as heavy as that? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe it is quite that heavy and it certainly +isn't quite that long. Well, it could have been cut the otherway, +couldn't it, possibly? + +Mr. JENNER. What about its shade, color? + +Mrs. PAINE. It would be similar to that. + +Mr. JENNER. Similar in shade. + +Do you have the broad banded sticky tape or sticky tape of this nature? + +Mrs. PAINE. There is no tape this wide in my home nor to my +recollection has there ever been. + +Mr. JENNER. You have whole rolls of this tape, of the paper in your +home? + +Mrs. PAINE. A whole roll. + +Mr. JENNER. A whole roll? + +Mrs. PAINE. Which I use for wrapping packages, mailing. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have string in your home that you use in attaching +to this wrapping? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you by any chance know the weight of the string that +wrapped the blanket package as against the strength or weight of the +string that you normally used in your home for packages? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was similar in weight, rather thin. + +Representative FORD. Color was the same? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think it was a whitish color on the blanket and one of +the rolls I have is that. + +Representative FORD. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you say it was a relatively light package string? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Not a rope type? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no. + +Mr. JENNER. And the string you saw on the blanket package was of the +lighter weight type and not---- + +Mrs. PAINE. And of the lighter color too, I think. + +Mr. JENNER. And the lighter color. + +Now, you and Marina arrived home on the 24th of September, with the +packages and contents of the station wagon, and, save the duffel bags, +they were moved into your home, and everybody settled down? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. When next was there--did you hear from Lee Harvey Oswald at +any time thereafter? + +Mrs. PAINE. Not until the afternoon of the 4th, which I have already +referred to. + +Mr. JENNER. No word whatsoever from him from the 24th of September? + +Mrs. PAINE. 23d we left him in New Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. 23d of September, until the 4th of October? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct; no word. + +Mr. JENNER. By letter, telephone? + +Mrs. PAINE. Or pigeon. + +Mr. JENNER. Or otherwise, anything whatsoever? + +Mrs. PAINE. No word. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you and Marina have discussions in that 10-day period +about where Lee was or might be? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever? Did you have any discussion about the fact +that you hadn't heard from Lee Harvey Oswald in 14 days or 10 days? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; we didn't. + +Mr. JENNER. No discussion on that at all. What did you and Marina +discuss during that 10-day period? + +Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall which was during that period or which was +after; general conversation. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it generally small talk, ladies talk about the house? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was generally what my vocabulary permitted and then she +would reminisce, her vocabulary being much larger, about her life in +Russia, about the movies she had seen. We talked about the children and +their health. We talked about washing, about cooking. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have ladies visit. Did ladies in the neighborhood +come and visit? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you go to neighbors homes? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. With Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. Again, I can't recall which was before October 4th and +which was after, but there was the normal flow nonetheless---- + +Mr. JENNER. And interested people? + +Mrs. PAINE. Of my visiting at other people's homes and particularly +Mrs. Roberts or Mrs. Craig. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Roberts was your next door neighbor and Mrs. Craig was +how many doors down or across the street? + +Mrs. PAINE. She is, you have to drive. You have to drive to her home. +She is the young German woman to whom I referred. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. Was there any discussion during this 10-day period of +Marina's relations with her husband, Lee? + +Mrs. PAINE. Not that I recall. + +Mr. JENNER. She expressed no concern during this 10-day period, that no +word had been heard from Lee? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she evidence any--did she do or say anything during +that period to indicate she did not expect to hear from him during that +10 days period? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; she did not. + +Mr. JENNER. There was nothing? + +Mrs. PAINE. There was nothing. + +Mr. JENNER. Did it come to your mind that it was curious you hadn't +heard from Lee Harvey Oswald for 10 whole days? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; it didn't seem curious. I know he had spent at least 2 +weeks looking for work on previous occasions in different cities and I +thought he wanted to find something before he communicated. + +Mr. JENNER. But in view of the affection that had been evidenced on the +day of departure on the 23d, you were not bothered by the fact that not +even a telephone call had been received in 10 days? + +Mrs. PAINE. If he was not in town I wouldn't have at all expected a +telephone call because that would have cost him dearly. + +Mr. JENNER. He might have made it collect. + +Mrs. PAINE. I didn't expect that either. + +Mr. JENNER. But there was no telephone call, there was no postcard, +there was no letter? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. There was nothing? + +Mrs. PAINE. There could well have been a letter but there was none. + +Mr. DULLES. Where did you think he was at this time? + +Mrs. PAINE. Houston. + +Mr. DULLES. Houston, looking for a job? Houston? + +Mrs. PAINE. Houston, possibly. + +Mr. JENNER. Because of the conversation on the morning of the 23d, +because of the possibility of his going to Houston or Philadelphia, +your frame of mind was that he was either in Houston or Philadelphia? + +Mrs. PAINE. I thought he probably was in Houston. The Philadelphia +reference was very slight. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any reference or discussion between you and +Marina during that period of the possibility that he was off in Houston +looking for work? + +Mrs. PAINE. No, there was not. + +Mr. JENNER. You are sure there was just no discussion of the subject at +all during that whole 10 days period with Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall any discussion of it. + +Mr. JENNER. She expressed no concern and you none? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. That nobody had heard from Lee. + +All right. + +You heard from him on the 4th of October? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you give the Commission the circumstances, the time +of day and how it came about? + +Mrs. PAINE. He telephoned in early afternoon, something after lunchtime. + +Mr. JENNER. The phone rang. Did you answer it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And did you recognize the voice? + +Mrs. PAINE. He asked to speak to Marina. + +Mr. JENNER. Whose voice was it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, after he asked to speak to Marina, I was certain it +was Lee's. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you say? + +Mrs. PAINE. I said "here" and gave her the phone. + +Mr. JENNER. You didn't say "where are you", or "I am glad to hear from +you, where have you been?" + +Mrs. PAINE. No. I thought that was her's to ask. He wished to speak +to her and I gave her the phone and, of course, that is what was then +asked. I heard her say to him---- + +Mr. JENNER. You heard her side of the conversation, did you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +What did you hear her say? + +Mrs. PAINE. I heard her say, "No, Mrs. Paine, she can't come and pick +you up." + +Mr. JENNER. Was she speaking in Russian? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Throughout? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. When Lee asked for Marina, did he speak in English or +Russian? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. And Marina went on to say that Mrs. Paine, +"Ruth has just been to Parkland Hospital this morning to donate blood, +she shouldn't be going driving now to pick you up." + +Mr. JENNER. Did she refer to you as Mrs. Paine or Ruth? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I am trying to make it clear who is being talked about. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. You might give your testimony the wrong cast. + +Mrs. PAINE. No; of course. She referred to me as "Ruth" or "she". + +To Junie, she called me Aunt Ruth. To Junie, speaking of me to her +little girl, she referred to me as Aunt Ruth. + +Mr. JENNER. You are giving the conversation now, the end of it that you +heard? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Then I heard Marina say "Why didn't you call?" + +Mr. JENNER. You did hear her say that? + +Mrs. PAINE. I believe so. I certainly remember her saying it afterward. +She hung up and she explained the conversation to me. + +Mr. JENNER. What did she say to you? + +Mrs. PAINE. That he had asked for me to come in to downtown Dallas to +pick him up and she said no; he should find his own way. + +Mr. JENNER. To come to downtown Dallas? + +Mrs. PAINE. To come to downtown Dallas to pick him up, and she never +asked me whether I wanted to or would have, told him, no; it was an +imposition, that I had just given blood at Parkland Hospital. + +Mr. JENNER. And you had in fact given blood? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; indeed. + +Mr. JENNER. That morning? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I have a card or the FBI does to that effect. Then +she said that he had said that he was at the Y, staying at the Y, and +had been in town a couple of days, to which she said, "Why didn't you +call right away?", in other words, "why didn't you call right away upon +getting to town?" + +Then he also asked whether he could come out; this was, of course, +during the conversation, and she referred the question to me, could he +come out for the weekend, and I said, yes, he could. + +Mr. JENNER. This was while she was still talking on the telephone? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Prior to his asking for a ride. + +So then they hung up and I went grocery shopping, and when---- + +Mr. JENNER. You left the home? + +Mrs. PAINE. I left the home. + +Mr. JENNER. You have now exhausted your recollection as to everything +that was said to you by Marina after she hung up and was relating to +you, at least a summary of the conversation with her husband? + +Mrs. PAINE. I believe it was also said that he wanted to look for work +in Dallas. He was here, staying at the Y. Could he come out for the +weekend. He planned to look for work in Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Did you say anything about--were you stimulated to say anything to +Marina about any of the subject matters of that conversation as she +reported it to you? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You expressed no response, made no response to her having +made a statement to her husband that--of her surprise as to why he +hadn't called and if he were just over in Dallas and staying at the Y? + +Mrs. PAINE. I thought that but I didn't try to put it in Russian. + +Mr. JENNER. There was no discussion is all I am getting at. + +What did she say as to his coming out by whatever means he could get +there? Was there any discussion of that? + +Mrs. PAINE. It implied whatever means, that he shouldn't ask me to---- + +Mr. JENNER. He was coming? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. But that you were not going to go to get him? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you left and went to the grocery store or market? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. When you returned, was Lee at your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. He was already there, which surprised me greatly. + +Mr. JENNER. Why did it surprise you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Because I thought he would have to take a public bus to +Irving, they run very rarely if at all during the afternoon, and I +thought he would have considerable difficulty getting out. I thought it +would be at least supper time before he got there. + +Mr. JENNER. How much time elapsed between the time you left and the +time you returned? + +Mrs. PAINE. Shopping? Oh, I don't know, perhaps an hour, perhaps a +little less. + +Representative FORD. Where did you go shopping? + +Mrs. PAINE. The grocery store in the same parking lot where we +practiced. + +Mr. JENNER. That was three blocks away? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is a little more than that. These would be long blocks. + +Mr. JENNER. Did any conversation ensue as to how he had, by what means +he had come from Dallas to Irving? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. He then said that he had hitchhiked out, caught a ride +with someone who brought him straight to the door, a Negro man. + +Mr. JENNER. To your door? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. To whom he said that he had been away from his wife +and child and he was just now getting home, and the man kindly brought +him directly to the door. + +Mr. JENNER. Where did this conversation take place? + +Mrs. PAINE. In the home that afternoon. + +Mr. JENNER. When you returned to your home, that was in the afternoon, +wasn't it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Where was Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he inside the home or outside? + +Mrs. PAINE. Inside, I believe. + +Mr. JENNER. Did any conversation ensue as to where he had been in that +10-day interim? + +Mrs. PAINE. Where he had been? + +Mr. JENNER. Where he had been in the intervening 10 days? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he said to me that he had been in Houston and that he +hadn't been able to find work there and was now going to try in Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about Philadelphia? + +Mrs. PAINE. Nothing. + +Mr. JENNER. From your testimony I gather he did not say anything about +Mexico? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present when he stated to you that he had been +in Houston looking for work? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection of it; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You never had any conversation with her up to the 23d or +22d of November on the subject of whether Lee had or had not been in +Mexico? + +Mrs. PAINE. We never had such a conversation. + +Mr. JENNER. Despite your having read that letter on the 10th of +November in which he stated that he had been? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Now there was no occasion in that letter that she may +have known that he went any more than there was certain indication to +my mind that this was true and not false. Had I looked at the peso, +this would have been the only occasion that she knew. + +Mr. JENNER. But the fact is, apart from your rationalization now there +was no conversation on that subject? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. How long did he remain in your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Monday morning---- + +The CHAIRMAN. Before you get to that, I want to ask a question about +giving the blood that day. Did you give it for a particular person or +for a blood bank? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was for Marina. For each of the persons who come in +under county care they ask you to donate two pints of blood, one at a +time. + +The CHAIRMAN. I see. And you donated one pint for her? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. + +Mr. JENNER. How long did he remain in your home on this visit? + +Mrs. PAINE. Until Monday morning, the 7th of October, almost noon, in +fact, when I took him to an Intercity bus at the Irving bus station. + +Mr. JENNER. This is that bus terminal approximately 3 miles from your +home? + +Mrs. PAINE. That same day I gave him a map to assist him in job hunting. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. I would like to get to that. + +I show you what is in evidence, I don't know whether it is received or +not; it is a Commission Exhibit No. 128, and ask you if you have ever +seen that before? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that the map to which you now have reference? + +Mrs. PAINE. I would say it is. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you do with the map with respect to Lee Harvey +Oswald on this occasion? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall who asked, who mentioned a map first, but, +of course, I knew, and he did, that it would be a useful thing to have +job hunting. I think he asked if I had a map of the city of Dallas and +I said, yes, I did, and I can easily get another at the gas station, +one of these. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, it is your clear recollection that this +document, Commission Exhibit No. 128, a map, is the map that you gave +Lee Harvey Oswald, this was October 7th? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was certainly this kind of map, whether it is the +identical map, I couldn't say for sure, but I much prefer the ENCO map +of the city and this is the kind I always get to use. So this is the +kind I had in mind. + +Mr. JENNER. So, to the best of your recollection, the coloring has been +changed a little bit because of attempts to draw fingerprints from it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. But your best recollection now, observing it, is that this +is the document? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you examine it carefully and see that there might be +something on it that would arrest your attention as your having placed +thereon or Lee? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have examined this carefully and a copy of it. + +Mr. JENNER. On other occasions? + +Mrs. PAINE. On other occasions, and I could not at any time find a +marking that I had made. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall having made any markings? + +Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall having made any markings on this particular +map. Sometime on some maps I knew I had made remarks where I was going. + +Mr. JENNER. Just for the purpose of the record, may I reverse it, and +you see no markings on the reverse side, I take it? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; which is Fort Worth, not Dallas, isn't it? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; it is. + +All right, now tell us about that incident? + +Mrs. PAINE. The map? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. I have. + +Mr. JENNER. That is all there was to it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you suggest, was there any discussion of, particular +places of employment? + +Mrs. PAINE. There was no such discussion. + +Mr. JENNER. As to which he might inquire? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. What did he--did you hand him the map? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And was it opened before you and Lee in your discussions? + +Mrs. PAINE. No, no; we didn't discuss. He said, do I have a map, and I +said, yes, I do, you may have it. + +Mr. JENNER. You handed it to him, and that was all that occurred? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And did he place it in his pocket or did he go into his +room or his and Marina's room and place it there? + +Mrs. PAINE. He may have already been on his way to the bus station when +this conversation occurred and took it with him. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +I notice what appears to be a notation that the document has not as +yet been offered in evidence, Mr. Chairman, and I offer in evidence, +therefore, as Commission Exhibit No. 128, the document heretofore +identified by that exhibit number. + +Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. + +(The document referred to, heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit No. +128 for identification, was received in evidence.) + +Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present during this discussion of his job +hunting? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. I seem to think we were on our way out +already to go in our car to the bus station. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Marina accompany you? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; she did not. + +Mr. JENNER. She did not? + +Mrs. PAINE. She stayed home with the baby. My children probably went +with me, I don't recall specifically. + +Mr. JENNER. That is the baby, you mean June? + +Mrs. PAINE. June. + +Mr. JENNER. You drove into the bus terminal approximately 3 miles from +your home. Did you remain until the bus came along? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think so. + +Mr. JENNER. You saw him depart? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about where he would reside in Dallas +before he left? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am not certain, but I think he said the Y was rather +expensive. He was going to look for a room. + +Mr. McCLOY. What was the date you took him into the bus station? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is the 7th of October. + +Mr. McCLOY. The 7th of October? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there an occasion in this early period that you drove +him all the way into Dallas? + +Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall ever driving him all the way into Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. At any time? + +Mrs. PAINE. We drove, except to the Oak Cliff Station for this driver +training test. + +Mr. JENNER. That is the only occasion? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is the only one I recall. Can you refresh my +memory. I can't think of any other. + +Mr. JENNER. You are clear that you drove him from your home to the bus +terminal in Irving? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And either you left immediately or waited to see him board +the bus, but it is your definite recollection you did not drive him to +the Dallas downtown area on that occasion? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I did once drive him to the Dallas downtown area, +because I recall where he got out. Now why I was going--yes, I think I +may know why I was going. + +Mr. JENNER. Fix the time first. + +Mrs. PAINE. I do recall now driving him into downtown Dallas because I +was already going and it was probably Monday, the 14th of October. + +Mr. JENNER. This is the day before his employment began with the Texas +School Book Depository? + +Mrs. PAINE. It would have been 2 days before, the day before he +applied. I have several recollections but which day they attach to is +not quite as clear. + +I recall taking him to the bus. I recall picking him up at the bus. I +recall going in and dropping him off at a corner of Ross Avenue and +something else, which was near the employment office. + +Mr. JENNER. In downtown Dallas? + +Mrs. PAINE. Near the employment office station. I was on my way to +get a key fixed on my Russian typewriter which is what was taking me +downtown. I hadn't been thinking--I at no time made a purposeful trip +just to take him to downtown Dallas, but I was going and he went along +and I am pretty sure that was a Monday and he got out at that corner +and Marina was with me and we went on to get this typewriter fixed +either to pick it up or to leave it. I am quite certain it was the +12th, Saturday, that I picked him up at the station. + +Mr. JENNER. At the bus terminal? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And I am pretty certain that it was the 7th I took him +to the bus station. I recall it being already noon, and I thought he +might well have started looking for a job earlier that day. + +Mr. JENNER. When next did you hear from Mr. Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. After the 7th. Probably on the 12th when he called again to +ask if he could come out for the weekend. + +Mr. JENNER. The 12th is what day of the week? + +Mrs. PAINE. The 12th is a Saturday. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that he did call? + +Mrs. PAINE. Pardon? + +Mr. JENNER. Did you recall that he did telephone and ask permission to +come? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, indeed he did. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he always do that? + +Mrs. PAINE. He always did that with the exception of the 21st of +November. + +Mr. JENNER. We will get to that in a very few moments. + +Mr. McCLOY. Before you get to that you said you went all the way into +Dallas with this errand, that Marina was with you. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection. + +Mr. McCLOY. What did you do with the children? + +Mrs. PAINE. We always take them. + +Mr. McCLOY. Took them all, put them all in the station wagon? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; big station wagon. + +Mr. JENNER. By the way, I would like to go back a little. When you +picked him up at the bus station on the afternoon of the 4th of +October, what did he have---- + +Mrs. PAINE. On the afternoon of the 12th, around noon of the 12th. + +Mr. JENNER. Please, when he first returned to Irving after---- + +Mrs. PAINE. He hitchhiked out. + +Mr. JENNER. On the occasion that he told you he had been in Houston +looking for a job? + +Mrs. PAINE. The 4th, he hitchhiked out. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +It is that occasion that I have in mind. + +What did he have with him in the way of luggage? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall certainly. It does seem to me that I +remember he took the zipper bag on Monday, the following Monday, with +him to town, along with some clothes over his arm, ironed shirts, +things that are hung on hangers. + +Mr. JENNER. With respect to that trip---- + +Mrs. PAINE. You must remember I was shopping when he arrived on the +afternoon of the 4th. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. So I didn't see him when he arrived that moment. + +Mr. JENNER. But you do have a recollection of having seen the zipper +bag on Monday? + +Mrs. PAINE. The 7th. + +Mr. JENNER. When you took him to the bus terminal for the purpose of +his returning to downtown Dallas? + +Mrs. PAINE. To find a room and live there and have sufficient clothing +there. + +That is my best recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that the first time you had seen the zipper bag? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. From the time you had left New Orleans on the 23d? + +Mrs. PAINE. So far as I recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you notice anything else in the way of pieces of +luggage in your home after you came back from the shopping center that +afternoon of October 4th that hadn't been there prior to his arrival? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. The only piece of luggage of which you have any +recollection then is the zipper bag which you saw him take with him +when he left on Monday morning, the 7th? + +Mrs. PAINE. And that is, I would not say a certain recollection. But +that is the best I have. + +Mr. JENNER. It is your best recollection anyhow? + +Mrs PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, when you returned to your home did you have any +discussion with Marina about Lee's departure and his future plans and +her understanding of them? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing I recall specifically. + +Mr. JENNER. None at all. + +What discussion went on between you and Marina, that is the subject +matter with respect to his weekend visits? + +Mrs. PAINE. She wanted to be certain it was all right for him to come +out, you know that it wasn't too much of an imposition on me. We got +into discussing his efforts to find a job. Then Monday, the 14th as +best as I recall, was the first time we talked about him, more than to +say it was too bad he didn't find something. This is the---- + +Mr. JENNER. During the course of the week was there discussion between +you and Marina respecting Lee Oswald's attempt at employment? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, there came an occasion, did there not, that weekend or +the following weekend at which there was a discussion at least by you +with some neighbors with respect to efforts to obtain employment for +Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. As best I can reconstruct it this was, while having coffee +at my immediate neighbors, Mrs. Ed Roberts, and also present was Mrs. +Bill Randle, and Lee had said over the weekend that he had gotten the +last of the unemployment compensation checks that were due him, and +that it had been smaller than the others had been, and disappointing in +its smallness and he looked very discouraged when he went to look for +work. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about amount? + +Mrs. PAINE. I didn't hear the question. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about amount? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't, just less. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mrs. PAINE. And the subject of his looking for work and that he hadn't +found work for a week, came up while we were having coffee, the four +young mothers at Mrs. Roberts' house, and Mrs. Randle mentioned that +her younger brother, Wesley Frazier thought they needed another person +at the Texas School Book Depository where Wesley worked. + +Marina then asked me, after we had gone home, asked me if I would +call---- + +Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present during this discussion? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; Marina was present, yes, indeed. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she understand the conversation? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was a running translation, running, faulty translation +going on. + +Mr. JENNER. You were translating for her? + +Mrs. PAINE. I was acting as her translator. And then after we came +home she asked me if I would call the School Book Depository to see if +indeed there was the possibility of an opening, and at her request, I +did telephone---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, please. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. While you were still in the Roberts' home was there any +discussion at all of the subject mentioned by you or by Mrs. Randle +or Mrs. Roberts or anyone else, of calls to be made, or that might be +made, to the Texas School Book Depository in this connection? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall this discussion. As I recall it was a +suggestion made by Marina to me after we got home, but I may be wrong. + +Mr. JENNER. But that is your best recollection that you are now +testifying to? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You reached home and Marina suggested that "Would you +please call the Texas School Depository?" + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you do? + +Mrs. PAINE. I looked up the number in the book, and dialed it, was told +I would need to speak to Mr. Truly, who was at the warehouse. The phone +was taken to Mr. Truly, and I talked with him and said---- + +Mr. JENNER. You mean the call was transferred by the operator? + +Mrs. PAINE. To Mr. Truly, and I said I know of a young man whose wife +was staying in my house, the wife was expecting a child, they already +had a little girl and he had been out of work for a while and was +very interested in getting any employment and his name, and was there +a possibility of an opening there, and Mr. Truly said he didn't know +whether he had an opening, that the young man should apply himself in +person. + +Mr. JENNER. Which made sense. + +Mrs. PAINE. Made very good sense for a personnel man to say. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you make more than one call to this Texas School Book +Depository? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Only the one? + +Mrs. PAINE. Only the one. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the date of this call? + +Mrs. PAINE. Reconstructing it, I believe it was October 14. + +Mr. JENNER. What day of the week is October 14? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is a Monday. + +Mr. JENNER. Following that call and your talking with Mr. Truly, what +did you do? + +Mrs. PAINE. Began to get dinner. Then Lee call the house. + +Mr. JENNER. In the evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. In the early evening. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you talk with him? + +Mrs. PAINE. Marina talked with him, then asked--then Marina asked me +to tell Lee in English what had transpired regarding the possible +job opening, and then I did say that there might be an opening in the +School Book Depository, that Mr. Truly was the man to apply to. Shall I +go on? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. The next day---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, I meant go on as far as the conversation was +concerned. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is all there was. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, I would like to return just for a moment to the +conversation in the Roberts' home. + +Was any possible place of employment in addition to the Texas School +Depository mentioned? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection of any other suggestion as to +possible places of employment? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have no recollection of that. + +Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection of any other, at least two other +places being suggested, and you, in turn, stating that they would be +unsatisfactory, one because an automobile had to be used, or it would +be necessary for Lee to have an automobile, and the other that he was +lacking in the possible qualifications needed? None of that refreshes +your recollection? + +Mrs. PAINE. None of that refreshes my recollection. I certainly +know that I thought, for instance, he couldn't have applied to Bell +Helicopter or to any place apart from the city area. + +Mr. JENNER. But Bell Helicopter was not mentioned? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall it being mentioned. + +Mr. JENNER. Your husband is employed by Bell Helicopter, is he not? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you made an inquiry of your husband as to the +possibility of employment by Lee Harvey Oswald with Bell Helicopter? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I hadn't, especially knowing that he had no way of +getting there. + +Mr. JENNER. Unless he knew how to drive a car? + +Mrs. PAINE. Unless he knew how to drive a car. + +Mr. JENNER. You didn't believe he was proficient enough at this moment +to operate it? + +Mrs. PAINE. We have got on record here that I gave him the first lesson +on the 13th of October. + +Mr. JENNER. And in any event were you aware he had no driver's license? + +Mrs. PAINE. I certainly was. + +Mr. JENNER. Especially that week? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you give him the telephone number and the address of +the Texas School Book Depository on the occasion when you talked to +him, this is the 14th? + +Mrs. PAINE. The address, I don't think so. I probably gave the phone +number. I don't recall that I gave him an address. + +Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to your address book, you have an +entry in your address book of the Texas School Depository, do you not? +Would you turn to that page? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have it here. + +Mr. JENNER. Is there an entry of address of the Texas School Depository +on that page? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; which I believe I made after he gained employment +there. + +Mr. JENNER. Rather than at the time that you advised him of this +possibility? + +Mrs. PAINE. Indeed. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you made an entry of the telephone number of the Texas +School Book Depository on that date? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have and of the address. + +Mr. JENNER. And that is the telephone number and the address of the +Texas School Depository Building where---- + +Mrs. PAINE. On Elm Street. + +Mr. JENNER. I heard you mention the Texas School Depository warehouse. +Did you think the warehouse was at 411 Elm? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. I had seen a sign on a building as I went along one +of the limited access highways that leads into Dallas, saying "Texas +School Book Depository Warehouse" and there was the only building +that had registered on my consciousness as being Texas School Book +Depository. + +I was not aware, hadn't taken in the idea of there being two buildings +and that there was one on Elm, though, I copied the address from the +telephone book, and could well have made that notation in my mind but I +didn't. + +The first I realized that there was a building on Elm was when I heard +on the television on the morning of the 22d of November that a shot had +been fired from such a building. + +Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of this record then I would like to +emphasize you were under the impression then, were you, that Lee Harvey +Oswald was employed? + +Mrs. PAINE. At the warehouse. + +Mr. JENNER. Other than at 411, a place at 411 Elm? + +Mrs. PAINE. I thought he worked at the warehouse. I had in fact, +pointed out the building to my children going into Dallas later after +he had gained employment. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with Lee Harvey Oswald where he +actually was employed, that is the location of the building? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he ever mention it? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. There never was any discussion between you and, say, young +Mr. Frazier or Mrs. Randle or anyone in the neighborhood as to where +the place of employment is located? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. It may be significant here to say, my letter to which I +have already referred---- + +Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit No.---- + +Mrs. PAINE. 425, which says, "Lee Oswald is looking for work in +Dallas," does not give a time of day. + +Mr. JENNER. What is the date of that letter? + +Mrs. PAINE. October 14, Monday. + +Mr. JENNER. This is the letter to your mother? + +Mrs. PAINE. But I don't normally write letters any time except when +the children are asleep, they sometimes nap but usually this is in the +evening. + +If it were in the evening it means that he had gotten the suggestion as +to a place to apply, but I didn't mention that. I only mentioned that +he was looking and was discouraged. + +I bring this out simply to say that I had no real hopes that he would +get a job at the School Book Depository. + +I didn't think it too likely that he would, but it was worth a try. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you hear from him then either on the 14th or 15th in +respect to his effort to obtaining employment at the Texas School +Depository? + +Mrs. PAINE. He called immediately on Tuesday, the 15th, after he had +been accepted and said he would start work the next day. + +Mr. JENNER. When you say immediately, what time of day was that? + +Mrs. PAINE. Midmorning I would say, which was contrary to his usual +practice of calling in the early evening. + +Mr. JENNER. By the way, is the call from Dallas, Tex., to Irving a toll +call? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. What is its cost, 10 cents? + +Mrs. PAINE. I expect so. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you answer the phone on the occasion he called? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What happened? + +Mrs. PAINE. He asked for Marina. + +Mr. JENNER. He said nothing to you about his success? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. As soon as you answered he asked for Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he identify himself? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; but I am certain he knew that I knew who he was. + +Mr. JENNER. You recognized his voice, did you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You called her to the phone. + +Did you hear her end of the conversation? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What took place by way of of conversation? + +Mrs. PAINE. She said, "Hurray, he has got a job." Immediately telling +me as she still talked to the telephone that he had been accepted for +work at the school book depository and thanks to me and she said, "We +must thank Mrs. Randle." + +Mr. JENNER. Did you return to the telephone and speak with him? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You did not. Where was he residing then, did you know? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not know. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you had any information that he was not residing at the +YMCA? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. How did you come by that information? + +Mrs. PAINE. He gave me a telephone number, possibly this same weekend. + +Mr. JENNER. That is of importance, Mrs. Paine. Would you give us the +circumstances, please? + +Mrs. PAINE. He said that he was at a---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, where was he when he said this? + +Mrs. PAINE. He was at the home so far as I remember. It might have been +during one of his telephone calls to the house, but I don't think so. +He rarely talked with me when he was out. + +Mr. JENNER. This would be the weekend of what? + +Mrs. PAINE. So this must have been the weekend of the 12th of October, +the same weekend. + +Mr. JENNER. That was the weekend following his return to Dallas on the +7th of October? + +Mrs. PAINE. Fourth of October. + +Mr. JENNER. He departed on the 7th. + +Mrs. PAINE. His return to Dallas, I am sorry. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; now, give it as chronologically as you can; how you +came by that telephone number, the circumstances under which it was +given to you. + +Mrs. PAINE. He said this is the telephone number. + +Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. He said of the room where he was staying, renting a +room, and I could reach him here if she went into labor. + +Mr. JENNER. I see, the coming of the baby was imminent? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. When was the baby expected? + +Mrs. PAINE. Any time after the first week in October. Any time, in +other words. + +Mr. JENNER. The obstetrician predicted the birth of the child as when? + +Mrs. PAINE. As due on the 22d. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Marina have a different notion? + +Mrs. PAINE. She thought it might be due around the 8th. + +Mr. JENNER. So there was a considerable variance in the expectation +between the date and when the baby actually did arrive? When did the +baby actually arrive? + +Mrs. PAINE. On the 20th of October, a Sunday. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he give you more than one telephone number? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. At this occasion did he give you more than one telephone +number? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Just stick to this particular occasion. What telephone +number--did you record it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. In what? + +Mrs. PAINE. In ink in my telephone book. + +Mr. JENNER. Your telephone and address book? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you opened that telephone address book to the page in +which you have made that recording? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that the page you identified yesterday? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mr. Chairman, may I examine it for a moment here. + +Now, relate for the record the telephone number that Mr. Oswald gave +you, the first one he gave you on this particular occasion? + +Mrs. PAINE. The number was WH 2-1985. + +Mr. JENNER. And that is at the bottom of the page written in ink. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that in your handwriting? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. What exchange is "WH" in Dallas? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't know. I did not know. I know now, maybe I know, +Whitehall, something. I know now what it is, but I didn't know then. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he on that occasion say anything about where the +apartment or room was? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not. + +Mr. JENNER. He did not give you an address? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Didn't locate it in any area in Dallas? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. All he gave you was the telephone number? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything that would indicate to you that you are +other than free to call him and ask for him by his surname you knew him +by? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not make such a limitation. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it from your testimony that the number was given +to you, at least the discussion was, so that you could call him in +connection with the oncoming event of the birth of his child? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Am I correct about this? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you have mentioned a second number that Mr. Oswald, +Lee Harvey Oswald, gave you. Did you receive that second number +subsequent to the birth of Rachel or prior to that time? + +Mrs. PAINE. Also prior to the birth of Rachel. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, relate for the Commission the circumstances under +which you received a second number? + +Mrs. PAINE. He gave me a second number, I suppose by phone, but I don't +recall. + +Mr. JENNER. When? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was certainly before the birth of the baby because again +it was so that I could reach him if she went to the hospital. + +Mr. JENNER. He called you or related this to you in your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. What? + +Mr. JENNER. He either called you by telephone or he was present in your +home and gave you the second number? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Which recollection serves you best, that he called or that +he gave it to you in your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. What did he say? + +Mrs. PAINE. He said he moved to different rooms, was paying a dollar a +week more, $8 instead of $7; incidentally, I needed to know how much he +was paying in order to put this on the form of Parkland Hospital, but +that it was a little more comfortable and he had television privileges +and privileges to use the refrigerator. And he gave me this number. + +Mr. JENNER. This was after he obtained employment with the Texas School +Book Depository, was it? + +Mrs. PAINE. I would rationalize that I have judged so. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it your best recollection? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. On the second occasion did he give you the location or even +the area in Dallas where his second room was located? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of him? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. No address? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Was the telephone number given you with any reservation as +to when you might call him? + +Mrs. PAINE. No such reservation. + +Mr. JENNER. Any indication that you should ask him, asking for him by +other than his surname by which you knew him? + +Mrs. PAINE. No such indication. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, the baby was born on the---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Twentieth. + +Mr. JENNER. Twentieth of October. Was Lee present, in town, I mean? + +Mrs. PAINE. He was at the house in Irving when labor began, and stayed +at the house to take care of June and my two children who were sleeping +while I took Marina to the hospital since I was the one who could drive. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. The 20th is--when did you take her to the +hospital? + +Mrs. PAINE. Around 9 o'clock in the evening. + +Mr. JENNER. What day? + +Mrs. PAINE. Sunday, the 20th of October. + +Mr. JENNER. And Lee Harvey Oswald was out there on that weekend on one +of his regular visits? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The first one since he had employment. + +Representative FORD. Did you ever call either one of those numbers? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. We will get to it. + +Mr. JENNER. You will forgive me because I would like to bring out the +particular circumstances of the call. + +Representative FORD. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Lee go back into town on Monday to go to work? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did. I informed him in the morning that he had +a baby girl. He was already asleep when I got back--no; that is not +right. He was not asleep when I got back from the hospital, but he had +gone to bed, and I stayed up and waited to call the hospital to hear +what word there was. So, that I knew after he was already asleep that +he had a baby girl. I told him in the morning before he went to work. + +Mr. JENNER. You called him in Dallas? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. I am a little confused. + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I am sorry, I will begin again. I took her to the +hospital and then I returned. I didn't feel I could stay. I thought I +should get back to my children. + +Mr. JENNER. This was Sunday night. + +Mrs. PAINE. Sunday night. + +He went to bed, put Junie to bed. I stayed up and waited until what I +considered a proper time and then called the hospital to hear what news +there was. They had implied I could come and visit, too, but that would +have been incorrect, and learned that he had a baby girl. I then went +to bed and told him in the morning. + +Mr. JENNER. You did not awaken him then? + +Mrs. PAINE. I did not awaken him. I thought about it and I decided if +he was not interested in being awake I would tell him in the morning. + +Mr. JENNER. And the morning was Monday? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Having learned that he was the father of a baby girl, I +assume you told him that? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he go to work that day? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he return to Irving that evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. It was agreed when he left that he would return that +evening. + +Mr. JENNER. How did he--was he brought back to Irving that evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. I imagine Wesley brought him. + +Mr. JENNER. At least you did not? + +Mrs. PAINE. I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he visit with Marina at the hospital that evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. When he arrived it was not decided whether he would go +to the hospital or not. He thought not, and I thought he should, and +encouraged him to go. + +Mr. JENNER. Why did he think he ought not to go? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am uncertain about this. This thought crossed my mind +that perhaps he thought they would find out he was working, but I had +already told them he was working since I had been asked at the hospital +when she was admitted and I mentioned this and it may have changed his +mind about going, but this is conjecture on my part. + +Mr. JENNER. In any event he did go? + +Mrs. PAINE. He did go. It was a good thing as he was the only one +admitted, I was not either a father or grandmother so I was not +permitted to get in. + +Mr. JENNER. I see, and you waited until his visit was over and returned +home with him? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he return to work the next morning? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did. + +Mr. JENNER. When next did you hear from him? + +Mrs. PAINE. The following Friday he came out again. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know how he returned to Dallas that following +morning, that is the 22d? + +Mrs. PAINE. Probably went with Wesley also. + +Mr. JENNER. And he came out the following weekend, did he? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. That was his birthday. + +Mr. JENNER. The 18th of October is his birthday. Did you have a party +for him? + +Mrs. PAINE. We had a cake; yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that weekend uneventful? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, Marina was already home. + +Mr. JENNER. The baby was now home. She came home very quickly? + +Mrs. PAINE. Very quickly, a day and a half. She was home on Tuesday, +the 16th, is that right--skipped a day, the 22d. So that his party was +the week before, too. I was wrong then. + +Mr. JENNER. When did he return, on Friday of that week? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, which was the 25th. I was mistaken. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he call in each day in the interim? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And talk to Marina and to you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, to Marina. + +Mr. JENNER. Inquire about the baby? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You overheard some of the conversation? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about the nature of his reaction to his +position at the Texas School Book Depository on the second weekend +when he came home? + +Mrs. PAINE. You are talking about the weekend of the 26th? + +Mr. JENNER. That is right. + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recall anything being said. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, the next weekend was November 1st to 3d, which is +Friday to Sunday, is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he home on that weekend? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he was. + +Mr. JENNER. And did anything eventful occur on that weekend? + +Mrs. PAINE. Just a minute. What I was looking for, I wanted to find out +whether I had taught a Russian lesson to my single student whom I saw +some Saturday afternoon on that weekend, and I recall that I did not. +So, the answer is no. I was there that Saturday. May I say if there was +a weekend other than October 12 when he came on Saturday instead of +Friday night, it was to have been that weekend? + +Mr. JENNER. Which weekend? + +Mrs. PAINE. The weekend of the 1st to the 3d. That is my best +recollection anyway. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. But other than that possibility, there was +nothing--it was a normal weekend at your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, following that weekend, which was the weekend of +November 8 through 10, I think you have already described that weekend. +That was the one on which you went to the Texas driver's application +bureau, is it not? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I recall him writing something on the early morning of +Saturday--this "Dear Sirs" letter. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; this is the letter or draft of letter dealing with his +reporting his visit to Mexico. + +Mrs. PAINE. Or stating that he had done such a thing, which I did not +fully credit. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he come the following weekend, that is the weekend of +November 15 through 17? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Why? + +Mrs. PAINE. Marina asked him not to. + +Mr. JENNER. This was the weekend preceding the ill-fated assassination +day? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Why did she ask him not to? + +Mrs. PAINE. She felt he had overstayed his welcome the previous weekend +which had been 3 days, 9th, 10th, and 11th because he was off Veterans +Day, the 11th of November, and she felt it would be simpler and more +comfortable if he didn't come out. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you had a discussion with her prior to that time on +that subject? + +Mrs. PAINE. I had not suggested that to her. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you overhear her tell him that? + +Mrs. PAINE. I did tell her I was planning a birthday party for my +little girl, and I heard her tell Lee not to come out because I +was having a birthday party. At some point in this same telephone +conversation likely I told him he did not need to have a car but to go +himself to the driver training station. + +Mr. JENNER. You have described that event for us heretofore this +afternoon. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Or this morning, I have forgotten which. + +Mr. McCLOY. May I interrupt here. I wonder whether or not you would +want to take a rest now. We have been pretty arduous and let's take a +little recess now. + +(Short recess.) + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, would you read the last interchange or +question and answer? + +(The reporter read the question and answer.) + +Mr. JENNER. Would you fix as best you can for us, the date or time that +you first saw the wrapped blanket after you had returned to Irving? How +long after that event did you see it to the best of your recollection? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have said it was the latter part of October. I don't +think I can fix it more exactly. + +Mr. JENNER. That would be almost or would be over a month afterwards? +You returned on September 24? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall thinking, that is, that anything like that +marks it as being particular noticeable. So that I am judging that I +recall seeing it in October, somewhere towards the end. + +Mr. JENNER. Had anything occurred at that time that now leads you to +fix it at the latter part of October? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; there is no way that I have to fix it. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you stumble over it or something? + +Mr. McCLOY. Could it have been as early as October 4 or the 7th when +you first got the call from him when he first returned to Dallas? + +Mrs. PAINE. Conceivably, but I don't remember. + +Mr. DULLES. Then you saw it on another occasion, how many days later +was that? + +Mrs. PAINE. I can't fix it that near. + +Mr. DULLES. It was several days later, was it, the time when it seemed +to have been moved from position "X" to position "XX"? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; that was later. + +Mr. McCLOY. Can you place it at all, can you place your recollection at +all as having seen it in relation to the assassination? The date of the +assassination? Was it 2 weeks before, 3 weeks before? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have inquired of myself for some weeks, was such a +package in my station wagon when I arrived from New Orleans, and I +cannot recall it, but I cannot be at all certain that there wasn't. I +certainly didn't unload it. I never lifted such a package. + +Mr. JENNER. Only you and Marina took things out of your station wagon +at that time? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And you did not---- + +Mrs. PAINE. So I think I would have seen it. + +Mr. DULLES. In your earlier testimony I think in reply to a question, +you indicated that you and Marina had only talked about this after the +assassination that afternoon. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. DULLES. If it is not out of order, I would like to get that into +the testimony maybe at this date what took place between them at that +time. + +Mr. JENNER. On the 22d? + +Mr. DULLES. Yes. + +Mr. McCLOY. I think it is best to leave it at the 22d. + +Mr. JENNER. I was going to take her chronologically. + +Mr. DULLES. Just so you recall that. + +Mr. McCLOY. But you can't recall having gone into the garage for any +purpose and having stepped over this thing or around it at any time +that you would associate with his return from New Orleans and Houston, +if he went to Houston? + +Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that it was after, it was in +October, therefore. + +Mr. McCLOY. But later than the 7th of October, you think? + +Mrs. PAINE. Later than that, yes. That is the best I can do. + +Mr. McCLOY. But well before the day of November 22? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I think I have oriented myself without having the reporter +read and may I proceed, Mr. Chairman? + +Mr. McCLOY. Surely. + +Mr. JENNER. We have now reached the weekend of the 15th, 16th, and +17th, which is the weekend that Lee Harvey Oswald did not return to +your home. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You had just finished relating that Marina had told him not +to come that particular weekend? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, was there an occasion during the course of that +weekend when a phone call was made to Lee Harvey Oswald. I direct your +attention particularly to Sunday evening, the 17th of November. + +Mrs. PAINE. Looking back on it, I thought that there was a call made to +him by me on Monday the 18th, but I may be wrong about when it was made. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Marina call him this Sunday evening, November 17? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. There was only one call made at any one time to him, to +my knowledge. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when a call was made to him and +you girls were unable to reach him when that call was made? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I will describe the call, and there is a dispute over +what night it was. + +Mr. JENNER. I would like your best recollection, first as to when it +occurred. Was it during the weekend that he did not return to your +home, the weekend immediately preceding the assassination day? Do you +recall that Marina was lonesome and she wished you to make a call to +Lee and you did so at her request? + +Mrs. PAINE. I recall certainly we had talked with Lee, on the telephone +already that weekend because he called to say that he had been to +attempt to get a driver's license permit. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. Whether he called that Saturday or whether he had called +Sunday, I am not certain. Indeed, I am not certain but what he had +called the very day, had already called and talked with Marina the very +day that I then, at her request, tried to reach him at the number he +had given me, with his number in my telephone book. + +Junie was fooling with the telephone dial, and Marina said, "Let's call +papa" and asked me---- + +Mr. JENNER. Was this at night? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was early evening, still light. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it on a weekend? + +Mrs. PAINE. I would have said it was Monday but I am not certain of +that. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it---- + +Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection, is that it was Monday. + +Mr. JENNER. All we want is your best recollection. If it was a Monday, +was it the Monday following the weekend that he did not come? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, certainly it was. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. That is if it was a Monday, it was the Monday +preceding November 22? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. Was there any evidence that the hint you gave, or that +was given, to Lee Harvey not to come over this weekend caused him any +annoyance? Was he put out by this, and did he indicate it? + +Mrs. PAINE. I made no such request of him. Marina talked with him on +the phone. + +Mr. DULLES. I realize that. + +Mrs. PAINE. And she made no mention of any irritation. Of course, I +didn't hear what he said in response to her asking him not to come. + +Mr. DULLES. And it didn't come out in any of these subsequent telephone +messages which we are now discussing? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I think I probably talked with him during that same +telephone conversation to say that he could go without a car, and there +was no irritation I noticed. + +Mr. DULLES. Thank you. + +Mr. JENNER. But it is your definite recollection that his failure to +come on the weekend preceding the assassination was not at his doing +but at the request of Marina, under the circumstances you have related? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am absolutely clear about that. + +Mr. JENNER. You are absolutely clear about that. All right. Now, state, +you began to state the circumstances of the telephone call. Would you +in your own words and your own chronology proceed with that, please? + +Mrs. PAINE. Marina had said, "Let's call papa," in Russian and asked +me to dial the number for her, knowing that I had a number that he had +given us. I then dialed the number---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, did you dial the first or the second number? + +Mrs. PAINE. The second number. + +Mr. JENNER. And that number is? + +Mrs. PAINE. WH 3-8993. + +Mr. JENNER. When you dialed the number did someone answer? + +Mrs. PAINE. Someone answered and I said, "Is Lee Oswald there?" And the +person replied, "There is no Lee Oswald here," or something to that +effect. + +Mr. JENNER. Would it refresh your recollection if he said, "There is +nobody by that name here"? + +Mrs. PAINE. Or it may have been "nobody by that name" or "I don't know +Lee Oswald." It could have been any of these. + +Mr. JENNER. We want your best recollection. + +Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that he repeated the name. + +Mr. JENNER. He repeated the name? + +Mrs. PAINE. But that is not a certain recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it then from the use of the pronoun that the person +who answered was a man? + +Mrs. PAINE. Was a man. + +Mr. JENNER. And if you will just sit back and relax a little. I would +like to have you restate, if you now will, in your own words, what +occurred? + +You dialed the telephone, someone answered, a male voice? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What did he say and what did you say? + +Mrs. PAINE. I said, "Is Lee Oswald there." He said, "There is no Lee +Oswald living here." As best as I can recall. This is the substance of +what he said. I said, "Is this a rooming house." He said "Yes." I said, +"Is this WH 3-8993?" And he said "Yes." I thanked him and hung up. + +Mr. JENNER. When you hung up then what did you next do or say? + +Mrs. PAINE. I said to Marina, "They don't know of a Lee Oswald at that +number." + +Mr. JENNER. What did she say? + +Mrs. PAINE. She didn't say anything. + +Mr. JENNER. Just said nothing? + +Mrs. PAINE. She looked surprised. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she evidence any surprise? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she did, she looked surprised. + +Mr. DULLES. You are quite sure you used the first name "Lee," did you, +you did not say just "Mr. Oswald," or something of that kind? + +Mrs. PAINE. I would not say "Mr. Oswald." It is contrary to Quaker +practice, and I don't normally do it that way. + +Mr. JENNER. Contrary to Quaker practice? + +Mrs. PAINE. They seldom use "Mister." + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mr. DULLES. And you wouldn't have said "Harvey Oswald," would you? + +Mrs. PAINE. I knew he had a middle name but only because I filled out +forms in Parkland Hospital. It was never used with him. + +Mr. JENNER. You do recall definitely that you asked for Lee Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. I cannot be that definite. But I believe I asked for him. +Oh, yes; I recall definitely what I asked. I cannot be definite about +the man's reply, whether he included the full name in his reply. + +Mr. JENNER. But you did? + +Mrs. PAINE. I asked for the full name, "Is Lee Oswald there." + +Mr. JENNER. Did you report this incident to the FBI? + +Mrs. PAINE. I had no occasion to see them, and I did not think it +important enough to call them after that until the 23d of November. + +Mr. JENNER. Perhaps I may well have deferred that question until after +I asked you the next. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did any event occur the following day with respect to this +telephone call? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; Lee called---- + +Mr. JENNER. What was it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Lee called at the house and asked for Marina. I was in the +kitchen where the phone is while Marina talked with him, she clearly +was upset, and angry, and when she hung up---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, did you overhear this conversation? + +Mrs. PAINE. I overheard the conversation but I can't tell you specific +content. + +Mr. JENNER. Please, Mrs. Paine, would you do your very best to recall +what was said? + +Mrs. PAINE. I can tell you what she said to me which was immediately +after, which is what I definitely recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you. + +Mrs. PAINE. She said immediately he didn't like her trying to reach +him at the phone in his room at Dallas yesterday. That he was angry +with her for having tried to reach him. That he said he was using a +different name, and she said, "This isn't the first time I felt 22 +fires," a Russian expression. + +Mr. JENNER. This is something she said? + +Mrs. PAINE. She said this. This is not the first time, but it was the +first time she had mentioned it to me. + +Mr. JENNER. Give her exact words to me again. + +Mrs. PAINE. When she felt 22 fires. + +Mr. JENNER. That is the expression she used? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you understand what she meant or, if not, did you ask +for an explanation? + +Mrs. PAINE. I did not ask for an explanation. I judged she meant, +she disagreed with his using a different name, but didn't feel like, +empowered to make him do otherwise or even perhaps ask to as a wife. + +Mr. DULLES. How long a conversation was this. Was it---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Fairly short. + +Mr. DULLES. Fairly short. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection. + +Representative FORD. What day of the month and what day of the week was +this? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, reconstructing it, I thought they succeeded each +other, the original call to the WH number on Monday and his call back +on Tuesday. + +Representative FORD. When he called back it was late in the afternoon +or early evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was the normal time for him to call back, early evening, +around 5:30. + +Mr. JENNER. You have a definite impression she was angry when she hung +up? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was she abrupt in her hanging up. Did she hang up on him? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; she was angry, she was upset. + +Mr. JENNER. And her explanation of her being upset was that he used the +assumed name? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, she didn't explain it as such, but she said he had +used it. + +Mr. JENNER. He was angry with her because you had made the call? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Or she had made it through you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did any further discussion take place between you and +Marina on that subject? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The following day he did not call at the usual time. + +Mr. JENNER. That would be the following day, the 20th? + +Mrs. PAINE. I believe that was a Wednesday and that is how I slipped a +day. + +Mr. JENNER. He didn't call at all on the succeeding day? + +Mrs. PAINE. He didn't call at all, and she said to me as the time for +normally calling passed, "He thinks he is punishing me." + +Mr. JENNER. For what? + +Mrs. PAINE. For having been a bad wife, I would judge, for having done +something he didn't want her to do, the objection. + +Mr. JENNER. To wit, the telephone call about which you have told us? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you and Marina go through a normal day that day, or was +there any other subject of discussion with respect to Lee Oswald on +that day? + +Mrs. PAINE. Nothing I would specifically recall; no. + +Mr. JENNER. This was the 20th of November, a Wednesday? + +Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. Let's proceed with the 21st. Did anything occur on the 21st +with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald, that is a Thursday? + +Mrs. PAINE. I arrived home from grocery shopping around 5:30, and he +was on the front lawn. I was surprised to see him. + +Mr. JENNER. You had no advance notice? + +Mrs. PAINE. I had no advance notice and he had never before come +without asking whether he could. + +Mr. JENNER. Never before had he come to your home in that form without +asking your permission to come? + +Mrs. PAINE. Without asking permission; that is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And he was out on the lawn as you drove up, on your lawn? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. Playing with June and talking with Marina, +who was also out on the lawn. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were, of course, surprised to see him? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you park your car in the driveway as usual? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you walk over to speak with him? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, got out, very likely picked some groceries out of the +car and he very likely picked some up too, and this is I judge what may +have happened. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell the Commission what was said between you and Lee +Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. Between me and Lee Oswald? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; on that occasion. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is not what I recall. I recall talking with Marina on +the side. + +Mr. JENNER. First. Didn't you greet him? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I greeted him. + +Mr. JENNER. And then what did you do, walk in the house? + +Mrs. PAINE. As we were walking in the house, and he must have preceded +because Marina and I spoke in private to one another, she apologized. + +Mr. JENNER. Was Marina out on the lawn also? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir. She apologized for his having come without +permission and I said that was all right, and we said either then or +later--I recall exchanging our opinion that this was a way of making up +the quarrel or as close as he could come to an apology for the fight on +the telephone, that his coming related to that, rather than anything +else. + +Mr. JENNER. That was her reaction to his showing up uninvited and +unexpectedly on that particular afternoon, was it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, it was rather my own, too. + +Mr. JENNER. And it was your own? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And because of this incident of the telephone call and your +not being able to reach him, and the subsequent talk between Lee and +Marina in which there had been some anger expressed, you girls reached +the conclusion the afternoon of November 21 that he was home just to +see if he could make up with Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Do I fairly state it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you do that evening? Did you have occasion to note +what he did? + +Mrs. PAINE. We had dinner as usual, and then I sort of bathed my +children, putting them to bed and reading them a story, which put me +in one part of the house. When that was done I realized he had already +gone to bed, this being now about 9 o'clock. I went out to the garage +to paint some children's blocks, and worked in the garage for half an +hour or so. I noticed when I went out that the light was on. + +Mr. JENNER. The light was on in the garage? + +Mrs. PAINE. The light was on in the garage. + +Mr. JENNER. Was this unusual? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, it was unusual for it to be on; yes. I realized that I +felt Lee, since Marina had also been busy with her children, had gone +out to the garage, perhaps worked out there or gotten something. Most +of their clothing was still out there, all of their winter things. They +were getting things out from time to time, warmer things for the cold +weather, so it was not at all remarkable that he went to the garage, +but I thought it careless of him to have left the light on. I finished +my work and then turned off the light and left the garage. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you completed that now? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You stated that he was in the garage, how did you know he +was in the garage? + +Mr. McCLOY. She didn't state that. + +Mrs. PAINE. I didn't state it absolutely. I guessed it was he rather +than she. She was busy with the children and the light had been on and +I know I didn't leave the light on. + +Mr. JENNER. Then, I would ask you directly, did you see him in the +garage at anytime from the time you first saw him on the lawn until he +retired for the night? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Until you retired for the night? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he out on the lawn after dinner or supper? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe so. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you hear any activity out in the garage on that evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Any persons moving about? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. The only thing that arrested your attention was the fact +that you discovered the light on in the garage? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Before you retired? + +Representative FORD. You discovered that when you went out to work +there? + +Mrs. PAINE. When I went out to work there. + +Mr. McCLOY. When you went out there, did you notice the blanket? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically seeing the blanket. I certainly +recall on the afternoon of the 22d where it had been. + +Mr. DULLES. Was there any evidence of any quarreling or any harsh words +between Lee Harvey and Marina that evening that you know of? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there a coolness between them? + +Mrs. PAINE. He went to bed very early, she stayed up and talked with me +some, but there was no coolness that I noticed. He was quite friendly +on the lawn as we---- + +Mr. JENNER. I mean coolness between himself and--between Lee and Marina. + +Mrs. PAINE. I didn't notice any such coolness. Rather, they seemed +warm, like a couple making up a small spat, I should interject one +thing here, too, that I recall as I entered the house and Lee had just +come in, I said to him, "Our President is coming to town." + +And he said, "Ah, yes," and walked on into the kitchen, which was a +common reply from him on anything. I was just excited about this +happening, and there was his response. Nothing more was said about it. + +Mr. DULLES. I didn't quite catch his answer. + +Mrs. PAINE. "Ah, yes," a very common answer. + +Mr. JENNER. He gave no more than that laconic answer? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Had there been any discussion between you and Marina that +the President was coming into town the next day? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything on that subject in the presence of Lee +that evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall anything of that sort. + +Mr. JENNER. What time did you have dinner that evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. 6 or 6:30, I would guess. + +Mr. JENNER. And calling on your recollection, Mrs. Paine, following +dinner do you remember any occasion that evening when Lee was out +of the house and you didn't see him around the house, and you were +conscious of the fact he was not in the house? + +Mrs. PAINE. I was not at anytime of the opinion that he was out of the +house, conscious of it. + +Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection of his being out of the house +anytime that evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. DULLES. Did he do any reading that evening--books, papers, anything? + +Mrs. PAINE. Not to my recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. What were you doing that evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have tried already to describe that after dinner, and +probably after some dishes were done. + +Mr. JENNER. Who did the dishes? + +Mrs. PAINE. Very likely Marina, it depended on who made the meal. I +normally cooked the meal and then she did the dishes or we reversed +occasionally. But I have tried to say I was very likely involved in the +back bedroom and in the bathroom giving the children a bath, getting +them in their pajamas and reading a story for as much as an hour. + +Mr. JENNER. That would take as much as an hour? + +Mrs. PAINE. That takes as much as an hour. + +Mr. JENNER. By this time we are up to approximately 7:30 or 8 o'clock, +are we? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh no; we are up to nearly 9 o'clock by now. We eat from +6:30 to after 7, do some dishes, brings it up toward 8, and then put +the children to bed. + +Mr. JENNER. When you had had your children put to bed and came out of +their room, was Lee, had he then by that time retired? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection. + +Mr. DULLES. Did you have any words with Marina about the light in the +garage? Was that a subject of conversation between you? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; we didn't discuss it. + +Mr. DULLES. You didn't mention it to her? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't discuss it. + +Representative FORD. Did he ever help in the kitchen at all, in any way +whatsoever? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I have said he once did dishes in New Orleans, but +that is about all I recall that he did. + +Representative FORD. But in Dallas, in your home, he never volunteered? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. McCLOY. Marina did help around the house? + +Mrs. PAINE. She helped a great deal. + +Mr. McCLOY. She was a good helper? + +Mrs. PAINE. She is a hard worker. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us, the time you came out of the bedroom and put your +children to bed when you noticed the light in the garage; fix as well +as you can the time of evening. + +Mrs. PAINE. I think it was about 9 o'clock. + +Mr. JENNER. That is when you noticed the light in the garage, around 9 +o'clock after you put your children to bed, and at that time Lee was +already retired? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Marina was still up? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. How long did she remain up? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that evening from that point on much like +any others, with the two of us up, we probably folded some diapers, +laundry. Some evening close to that time, either that evening or the +one before, we discussed plans for Christmas. + +Mr. JENNER. You and Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But it was probably the evening before. I was thinking +about making a playhouse for the children. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you describe Lee's attire when you first saw him on +the lawn when you returned that evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall it. + +Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection of that? Did he bring--do you know +whether he brought anything with him in the way of paper or wrapper or +luggage or this sticky tape, anything of that nature? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall seeing anything of that nature. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see any paper, wrapping paper, of the character +that you have identified around your home that evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. McCLOY. Can't you recall a little more clearly how he generally was +dressed? Did he have a coat on such as I have got on now, or did he +have---- + +Mrs. PAINE. I never saw him in a suit jacket. + +Mr. McCLOY. Suit jacket? What was his normal outer wear apparel? + +Mrs. PAINE. His normal attire was T-shirt, cotton slacks, sometimes the +T-shirt covered by a shirt, flannel or cotton shirt. + +Mr. McCLOY. Do you recall whether he had that type of shirt over his +T-shirt that night? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. + +Mr. McCLOY. You don't recall? + +Mr. JENNER. Did he have any kind of a shirt other than a T-shirt on him +when you saw him? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't really remember. + +Mr. JENNER. I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if despite the fact I haven't +reached the next day, if we might excuse Mrs. Paine? She did tell me +she had an appointment at 5:30 this evening, and I would like to have +her think over more so she can be refreshed in the morning as to this +particular evening. And, Mrs. Paine, I would have you trace the first +thing in the morning as best as you can recall Lee Harvey Oswald's +movements that evening and where he was, to the best that you are able +to recall. Would you try to do that for us? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think I probably have done the best I can, but I will do +it again if you like. + +Mr. JENNER. May we have permission to adjourn, Mr. Chairman? + +Mr. McCLOY. Very well. + +Mr. DULLES. Could I ask just one question? With regard to this sketch +of the house, I was interested to know where you would see the light in +the garage. Was it from out here? + +Mrs. PAINE. This is a doorway into the garage from the kitchen area. + +Mr. DULLES. And you saw that light from the kitchen area? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think I was probably on my way to the garage anyway, +opened the door, there was the light on. + +Mr. DULLES. I see. There are no windows or anything. The door was +closed and the light would not be visible if you hadn't gone into it? + +Mrs. PAINE. It would be visible if it was dark in here. + +Mr. DULLES. I understand. Through the door. + +Representative FORD. And you spent about a half hour in the garage +painting some blocks? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Representative FORD. What part of the garage---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Close to the doorway here, the entrance, this entrance. + +Representative FORD. The entrance going into the---- + +Mrs. PAINE. The doorway between the garage and the kitchen-dining area. +Right here. + +Representative FORD. You didn't move around the garage? + +Mrs. PAINE. I moved around enough to get some shellac and brush and +make a place, a block is this big, to paint. + +Representative FORD. Where do you recollect, if you do, the blanket was +at this time? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recollect. It was the next day---- + +Representative FORD. It was the forepart of the garage on the left-hand +side? + +Mrs. PAINE. Beyond. + +Mr. McCLOY. Does anyone have any further questions? + +Mr. JENNER. No questions, Mr. Chairman. + +Representative Ford has directed the attention of the witness to the +document which is now Exhibit No. 430, and when we reconvene in the +morning I will qualify the exhibit. + +Mr. McCLOY. Is that all? + +We will reconvene at 9 a.m., tomorrow. + +(Whereupon, at 5:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +Friday, March 20, 1964 + +TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED + +The President's Commission met at 9:05 a.m. on Friday, March 20, 1964, +at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. + +Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman +Cooper, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and John J. McCloy, members. + +Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Albert E. Jenner, +Jr., assistant counsel; and Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel. + + +Senator COOPER. Mrs. Paine, you, I think, yesterday affirmed, made +affirmation as to the truthfulness of your testimony? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did. + +Senator COOPER. You are still under that affirmation? + +Mrs. PAINE. I understand that I am under that affirmation. + +Mr. JENNER. May I proceed? + +Thank you. Mrs. Paine, just to put you at ease this morning, Mr. +Chairman, may I qualify some documents? + +The CHAIRMAN. Good morning, gentlemen and ladies. How are you, Mrs. +Paine? I am glad to see you this morning. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, I show you Commission Exhibit No. 425 which +you produced and which you testified was the original of a letter of +October 14, 1963, to your mother, part of which you read at large in +the record. Is that document in your handwriting entirely? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. You testified it is a letter from you to your mother? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you dispatch the letter? + +Mrs. PAINE. I did. + +Mr. JENNER. In view of that fact would you explain for the record how +you came into possession of the letter since you sent it to your mother? + +Mrs. PAINE. She gave it to me a few days ago. + +Mr. JENNER. Is the document now in the same condition it was when you +mailed it to your mother? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. You have the first page of two. The other page +not being relative to this case. + +Mr. JENNER. In other words, that there be no question about it, do you +have the other page? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have the other page. + +Mr. JENNER. May I have it? + +Mrs. PAINE. The other page, of course, contains my signature. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. May the record be amended to show that Commission +Exhibit No. ----. + +Mrs. PAINE. I'd rather not have that part of it---- + +Mr. JENNER. It is not going into the record, Mrs. Paine. Just be +patient. Commission Exhibit 425 consists of two pages, that is two +sheets. The pages are numbered from one through four. Would you look at +the page numbered 4? There is a signature appearing at the bottom of +it. Is that your signature? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, may I postpone the offer of this document +in evidence until I do read the second page, which the witness has +now produced. You see, Mrs. Paine, that it may be important to the +Commission to have the entire letter which would indicate the context +in which the statements that are relevant were made. + +You testified yesterday with regard to the draft of what appeared to +be a letter that Mr. Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald, was to send. It was +thought he might send it to someone. I hand you a picture of a letter +in longhand which has been identified as Commission Exhibit 103. Would +you look at that please? Do you recognize that handwriting? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. This is the only time I saw--this is the only +handwriting of his I have seen. + +Mr. JENNER. You can't identify the document as such, that is, are you +familiar enough with his handwriting---- + +Mrs. PAINE. To know that this is his handwriting? + +Mr. JENNER. To identify whether that is or is not his handwriting. + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you ever seen that Document before? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you first see it? + +Mrs. PAINE. I first saw that on Saturday, the 9th of November. I don't +believe I looked to see what it said until the morning of the 10th. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. Now, do you recognize it, however, as a picture of +the document that you did see on the 9th of November, or did you say +10th? + +Mrs. PAINE. I'll say 10th, yes; it is that document. + +Senator COOPER. What is the answer? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is that document. + +Mr. JENNER. And I take it from your testimony that after you had seen +the original of this document, this document happens to be a photo, you +saw a typed transcript of this document or substantially this document? + +Mrs. PAINE. I never saw a typed transcript. + +Mr. JENNER. You did not? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you testified yesterday that Lee Harvey Oswald +asked you if he could use your typewriter? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And he did proceed to use the typewriter to type a letter +or at least some document? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And that you saw a document folded in half and one portion +of it arrested your attention? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Was the document that arrested your attention the typed +document or was it the document that is before you? + +Mrs. PAINE. I never saw the typed document. It was the document that is +before me, which I take to be a rough draft of what he typed. + +Mr. JENNER. And you said you made a duplicate of the document. Did you +make a duplicate in longhand or on your typewriter? + +Mrs. PAINE. I made a duplicate in longhand. + +Mr. JENNER. But you do have a present recollection that this, +Commission Exhibit No. 103 for identification, is the document which +you saw in your home on your desk secretary? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. +103 the document--oh, it is already in evidence. I withdraw that offer. + +Senator COOPER. It is in evidence. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Redlich informs me, Mr. Chairman, that the document has +already been admitted in evidence. + +Now, would you follow me as I go through these? There has been marked +as Commission's Exhibit 430, which is the mark at the moment for +identification, what purports to be a floor plan outline of the Paine +home at 2515 Fifth Street, Irving, Tex., and the witness made reference +to that yesterday close to the close of her testimony yesterday +afternoon. Directing your attention to that exhibit, is that an +accurate floor plan outline of your home at 2515 Fifth Street, Irving, +Tex.? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is an approximately accurate floor plan. + +Mr. JENNER. And is it properly entitled, that is, are the rooms and +sections of the home properly entitled? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they are. + +Mr. JENNER. And does it accurately reflect the door openings, the +hallways in your home and the garage? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is perfectly accurate. + +Mr. JENNER. I think one thing only needs some explanation. In the +upper left-hand corner of the floor plan outline, there is a square +space which has no lettering to identify that space. It is the area +immediately to the left of the--of what is designated as kitchen-dining +area. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. That space is all one room with that which is +designated kitchen-dining area. That is one large room. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. So that even though on the floor plan outline the +words "kitchen-dining area" appear in the right half of that space, +that lettering and wording is to apply to all the space? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And the driveway about which you testified is that portion +of the ground outline which has the circle with the figure "8" and an +arrow, is that right? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is the driveway. + +Mr. JENNER. And the driveway is where the car was parked because the +garage always had too many things in it to get your car in? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Referring to Commission Exhibit No. 431 for identification, +is that a front view of your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you present when the picture was taken? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was. + +Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 432, is that a rear view of your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you present when that was taken? + +Mrs. PAINE. Probably. I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. But that is an accurate depiction? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Of the rear of your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is certainly accurate. + +Mr. JENNER. And showing some of your yard. The next Exhibit 433, is +that a view of the east side of your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. East and north; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And were you present when that was taken? + +Mrs. PAINE. I wouldn't know. + +Mr. JENNER. But it is an accurate depiction of that area of your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 434, is that a view of the west side of +your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. West and north. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you present when that was taken? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Despite that, is it accurate? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is perfectly accurate. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, is Commission Exhibit 435 a view inside your home +looking through the door leading to the garage from your kitchen? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. And were you present when that was taken? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was. + +Mr. JENNER. And is it accurate? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 436, is that a picture of the doorway +area leading to the backyard of your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you present when that was taken? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it accurate? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 437, is that the kitchen area in your +home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, were you present when that was taken? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was. + +Mr. JENNER. And is it accurate? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Returning now to the floor plan exhibit, Commission +Exhibit 430, is Commission Exhibit 437, which is the kitchen area in +your home, that portion of Commission Exhibit 430 which is lettered +"kitchen-dining area." + +Mrs. PAINE. It is a picture of that portion. + +Mr. JENNER. Of that portion, rather than the portion to the left which +is unlettered? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. The garage interior we identified yesterday. By the way, +have you ever been in the Randle home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you been there often enough to identify a floor plan +and pictures of the Randle home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I have been there perhaps once or twice. + +Mr. McCLOY. Do you intend to call Mrs. Randle? + +Mr. JENNER. Unfortunately Mrs. Randle has already testified and Mr. +Ball when he questioned her did not have this exhibit. It wasn't in +existence. + +I show you a page marked Commission Exhibit No. 441 entitled "Randle +Home, 2439 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex.," purporting to be a floor +plan outline of the Randle home. You have been in the Randle home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. + +Mr. JENNER. On several occasions? + +Mrs. PAINE. Two or three; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And are you familiar with the general area of the Randle +home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Surrounding the Randle home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Indeed; I am. + +Mr. JENNER. And looking at Commission Exhibit 441, is that an accurate +floor plan outline and general community outline of the Randle home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I would say it is. + +Mr. JENNER. I show you Commission Exhibit 442. Is that an accurate and +true and correct photograph showing the corner view of the Randle home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 443, is that an accurate photograph of a portion of +the kitchen portion, the front of the kitchen window of the Randle home? + +Mrs. PAINE. I believe so. + +Mr. JENNER. Does your recollection serve you---- + +Mrs. PAINE. I am trying to see if I know which is west and north there +and I am not certain. + +Mr. JENNER. Let us return to the floor plan. + +Mrs. PAINE. This would be, yes, that is what I thought. This is looking +then west. + +Mr. JENNER. You have now oriented yourself. And is it an accurate +picture of the front of the kitchen? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Senator COOPER. Which exhibit are you referring to now? + +Mr. JENNER. The front of the Randle home No. 443. The next number, 444, +is that an accurate photograph of the area of the Randle home showing a +view from the field from the Randle's kitchen window? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is accurate. + +Mr. JENNER. Across the street? + +Mrs. PAINE. Correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 445, is that an accurate photograph of +the kitchen of the Randle home looking at the direction of the carport +from the Randle home? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is an accurate picture showing the door opening to the +carport; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And the kitchen portion of the Randle home facing on the +carport? + +Mrs. PAINE. Correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been in the carport area of the Randle home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. + +Mr. JENNER. And is Commission Exhibit 446 a view of a portion of the +carport area of the Randle home? + +Mrs. PAINE. It looks like it. + +Mr. JENNER. Now 447 is a photograph taken from the street looking +toward the Randle home, is that right? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And it is the west side of the Randle house? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Showing that carport area? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And it is accurate, isn't it? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is accurate. + +Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 438, is that an accurate photograph of +the area of Irving Street showing not only the Randle house but also +your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is accurate. + +Mr. JENNER. And is Commission Exhibit 448---- + +Senator COOPER. What was the number of the photograph which you just +referred to? + +Mr. JENNER. 438. 438 is view looking northeast showing the Paine home +at the left and the Randle home at the far right. Directing your +attention to Commission Exhibit 448, is that an accurate photograph +showing a view of the Randle home looking West Fifth Street? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is Commission Exhibit 438 an accurate photograph showing a +view looking west along Fifth Street to your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. And is the arrow that appears on that photograph--does that +point to your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is Commission Exhibit No. 450, which I now show you, an +accurate photograph of the intersection of Westbrook Drive and West +Fifth Street viewed from immediately outside the Randle kitchen window? + +Mrs. PAINE. It looks to be exactly that. + +Mr. JENNER. I now show you Commission Exhibit No. 440 entitled "Paine +and Randle homes, Irving, Tex." which purports to be, and I believe is, +a scale drawing of the area in Irving, Tex., along West Fifth Street +and Westbrook Drive, in which your home at 2515 West Fifth Street is +shown in outline, and the location and form of the Randle home down the +street and on the corner is likewise shown. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that accurate? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is accurate. + +Senator COOPER. Are you going to make part of the record these exhibits +which she has identified? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; I am about to offer these and I would ask Mr. Redlich +if he would assemble the exhibit numbers so I can make the offer, +please. + +Mrs. Paine, now that you have had a rest over night, we would like to +return to the late afternoon and the evening of November 21. Did Lee +Harvey Oswald come to Irving, Tex., at anytime that day? + +Mrs. PAINE. He came some time shortly before 5:30 in the evening on the +21st. + +Mr. JENNER. Had either you or Marina, I limit it to you first, had you +had any notice or intimation whatsoever that Lee Harvey Oswald would +appear on that day? + +Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely none. + +Mr. JENNER. And his appearance was a complete surprise to you? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Did anything occur during the day or during that week up to +the time that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald that afternoon that impressed +you or led you to believe that Marina had any notion whatsoever that +her husband would or might appear at your home on that day? + +Mrs. PAINE. Nothing. I rather had the contrary impressions. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, what was your first notice, what was the circumstances +that brought your attention to the fact that Lee Harvey Oswald was in +Irving, Tex., that afternoon. + +Mrs. PAINE. I arrived home from the grocery store in my car and saw he +was on the front lawn at my house. + +Mr. JENNER. You had had no word whatsoever from anybody prior to that +moment? + +Mrs. PAINE. No word whatsoever. + +Mr. JENNER. Now where was he? And we may use the exhibits we have just +identified. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence the photographs and the +floor plans and the area outlines the witness has just identified and +testified about as they are Commission Exhibit Nos. 429 through 448 +both inclusive, and 450 and 452. + +Senator COOPER. The exhibits offered will be received in evidence. + +(Commission Exhibits Nos. 429 through 448 both inclusive, and 450 and +452 were received in evidence.) + +The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cooper, at this time I am obliged to leave for +our all-day conference on Friday at the Supreme Court, and I may be +back later in the day, but if I don't, you continue, of course. + +Senator COOPER. I will this morning. If I can't be here this afternoon, +whom do you want to preside? + +The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, would you be here this afternoon at all? + +Representative FORD. Unfortunately Mr. McCloy and I have to go to a +conference out of town. + +The CHAIRMAN. You are both going out of town, aren't you? + +Senator COOPER. I can go and come back if it is necessary. + +The CHAIRMAN. I will try to be here myself. Will Mr. Dulles be here? + +Mr. McCLOY. He is out of town. + +The CHAIRMAN. If you should not finish, Mr. Jenner, will you phone me +at the Court and I will try to suspend my own conference over there and +come over. + +Senator COOPER. I will be here anyway all morning and will try to come +back this afternoon. + +The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. Mrs. Paine, I want to thank you for +coming and for being so patient with our long questioning. + +Mrs. PAINE. I am glad to do what I can. + +The CHAIRMAN. You know that it is necessary. + +Mrs. PAINE. Indeed. + +The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. + +Mr. JENNER. You might use the ruler, and I have set the floor plan and +the area plan of your home, Mrs. Paine, Exhibit 430, on the blackboard. +As you testify, it might be helpful to point to those areas. Now in +which direction were you coming? + +Mrs. PAINE. I was coming from the east. + +Mr. JENNER. From the east? + +Mrs. PAINE. Along West Fifth. + +Mr. JENNER. You were going west. Your home is on the right-hand side. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you first sight, where were you when you first saw +Lee in your courtyard? + +Mrs. PAINE. Just past the corner of Westbrook and Fifth. + +Mr. JENNER. That area is open from that point to your home; is it? + +Mrs. PAINE. The area of the front yard; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Your home is well set back from the street or sidewalk? + +Mrs. PAINE. Moderately set back. + +Mr. JENNER. What would you judge that distance to be? + +Mrs. PAINE. Two car lengths from the opening of the garage to the +sidewalk. + +Mr. JENNER. Now where was Lee Oswald when you first saw him? + +Mrs. PAINE. He was on the grass just to the east of the driveway. + +Mr. JENNER. Near the driveway just to the east, but he was out in front +of your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you do then? You proceeded down the street? + +Mrs. PAINE. I parked my car, yes; parked my car in its usual position +in the driveway. + +Mr. JENNER. In your driveway? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Up close to the garage opening? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And that left you then, you were on the left side or the +driving side of your automobile. You got out, did you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Which way? Did you get out to your left or did you swing +across the seat and get out at the right hand door? + +Mrs. PAINE. I got out on the driver's side, on the left. + +Mr. JENNER. Then what did you do? First tell us what you did. Did you +go into your home directly? Did you walk around? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. I greeted Lee and Marina, who were both on the front +lawn. + +Mr. JENNER. Was their daughter June out in front as well? + +Mrs. PAINE. Their daughter June was out in front. It was warm. Lee was +playing with June. + +Mr. JENNER. How was he attired? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically. + +Mr. JENNER. You said that he normally wore a T-shirt. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he in a T-shirt or shirt? + +Mrs. PAINE. I'd be fairly certain he didn't have a jacket on, but that +whatever it was was tucked in. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the color of his trousers? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Now at that point you were surprised to see him? + +Mrs. PAINE. I was. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you say to him? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. But you do recall greeting him? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't recall that you evidenced any surprise that he +was there? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I think I did. + +Mr. JENNER. Had there ever been an occasion prior thereto that he had +appeared at your home without prior notice to you and permission from +you for him to appear? + +Mrs. PAINE. There had been no such occasion. He had always asked +permission prior to coming. + +Mr. JENNER. And there never had been an exception to that up to this +moment? + +Mrs. PAINE. No exception. + +Mr. JENNER. May we have the time again? You say it was late in the +afternoon, but can you fix the time a little more? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was getting on toward 5:30. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you tarry and talk with Lee and Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. I remember only that Marina and I were still on the grass +at the entryway to the house when she spoke of her embarrassment to me +in an aside, that is to say, not in Lee's hearing, that she was sorry +he hadn't called ahead and asked if that was all right. And I said +"Why, that is all right." + +Mr. JENNER. Nothing was said by her as to why he had come out? + +Mrs. PAINE. Nothing. + +Mr. JENNER. And nothing was---- + +Mrs. PAINE. She was clearly surprised also. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. You made no inquiry of her I take it then of any +explanation made by Lee Oswald as to why he had come out unannounced +and unexpectedly? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. At least not as of that moment. + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Now when you had your aside with Marina, where was Lee +Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. On the grass near the tree playing with June as closely as +I can remember. + +Mr. JENNER. How long did you and Marina remain in conversation at that +place, position? + +Mrs. PAINE. Less than a minute. + +Mr. JENNER. Then what did you do? + +Mrs. PAINE. I can only reconstruct it. + +Mr. JENNER. That is all I am asking you to do. + +Mrs. PAINE. I must have gotten groceries from the car. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean reconstruct in the sense of rationalizing? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I wish you would give me first your recollection. + +Mrs. PAINE. I am certain of going into the house, and I recall standing +just inside the doorway. + +Mr. JENNER. Of your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Of my home. + +Mr. JENNER. But inside the home? + +Mrs. PAINE. But inside now. + +Mr. JENNER. Which way were you facing when you were standing inside the +doorway? + +Mrs. PAINE. I was facing partly toward the door, toward the loud +speaker. I was facing this way. + +Mr. JENNER. Why were you facing outwardly? + +Mrs. PAINE. I believe I turned. I was coming in. I believe I turned to +speak to Lee as he came in. + +Mr. JENNER. Lee followed you in the house? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And did Marina come in? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall whether she was already in or still out. + +Mr. JENNER. But you do have a recollection that Lee followed you into +your home. + +Mrs. PAINE. And I recall very clearly the position I was in in the room +and the position he was in. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us. + +Mrs. PAINE. I was turned part way toward the door. He was coming in, +having just entered the door and in front of this loud speaker to which +I refer. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the loud speaker? + +Mrs. PAINE. The loud speaker is part of the Hi-Fi set. It stands--it is +a big thing. + +Mr. JENNER. Did something occur at that moment? + +Mrs. PAINE. And it was at that time that I said to him "Our President +is coming to town." I believe I said it in Russian, our President is +coming to town in Russian. + +Mr. JENNER. And you gave us his response yesterday but you might do it +again. + +Mrs. PAINE. He said "Uh, yeah" and brushed on by me, walked on past. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he have an attitude of indifference? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was clearly both indifference and not wanting to go on +and talk, because he moved away from me on into the kitchen. + +Mr. JENNER. He went into your kitchen. What did you do? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically. + +Mr. JENNER. We are anxious to follow minute by minute, to the extent +possible, all the movements of which you had any knowledge of Lee +Oswald on this late afternoon and throughout the evening. Did Lee +Oswald remain in your presence right at this time when you entered the +house? If so, how long? You had this short conversation. Did he leave +your presence then and go to some other part of your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. He might have gone to some other part of the home. He +didn't leave the house to my recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. I didn't mean to imply that, only whether he remained in +the general area in which you were in your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he pass from your sight? + +Mrs. PAINE. Probably. + +Mr. JENNER. Before you guess about it, give us your best recollection. + +Senator COOPER. Tell what you remember. + +Mr. McCLOY. Yes; just in your own words tell us what your best +recollection of this afternoon was without second to second sequence. + +Mrs. PAINE. Clearly just having come from the grocery store I put the +bags down in the kitchen and unpacked them, put them away, started +supper. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any sense that Lee Oswald was in and about the +inside of the house while you were doing this? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection that he did not go out into the +yard during this period? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. If he did, it would have been the back. It +would have been unusual for him to go in the front yard. + +Mr. JENNER. Now you were preparing your dinner in your kitchen, were +you not? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And does the entrance to your garage--is there an entrance +to your garage opening from your kitchen into the garage? + +Mrs. PAINE. There is an entrance to the garage from the kitchen; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And one of the exhibits we qualified this morning is a +picture of that area of your home, is it not? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Your answer was yes? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. At anytime while you were preparing dinner was Lee Oswald +in the garage? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were aware of that fact, were you? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection that he was not in the garage +while I was preparing dinner. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know where he was while you were preparing dinner? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to look into your garage area at +anytime during the period you were preparing dinner? + +Mrs. PAINE. Not that I recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Where was Marina during the period you were preparing +dinner? + +Mrs. PAINE. I'd have to guess. + +Senator COOPER. Just tell what you know. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell what you know first. + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection with respect to whether she was +inside the house or outside the house? + +Mrs. PAINE. I recall that she was inside the house. + +Mr. JENNER. And where was the child June with respect to whether she +was inside or outside the house? + +Mrs. PAINE. She was inside. + +Mr. JENNER. Having located Marina and the Oswald daughter inside your +home, does that refresh your recollection as to whether Lee was also +inside the house? + +Mrs. PAINE. As far as I remember, he was also inside the house. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he playing with his daughter? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. How long did it take you to prepare dinner? + +Mrs. PAINE. Probably half an hour. + +Mr. JENNER. I am unaware of the shades of evening and night in Texas. +By the time you had completed dinner had night fallen or was it still +light? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. What time does nightfall come in Texas in November, late +November? + +Mrs. PAINE. I would say between 7 and 7:30. + +Mr. JENNER. I shouldn't have been as broad as I was. I meant to locate +it in Irving, Tex., rather than Texas generally. About 7:30? + +Mrs. PAINE. Between 7 and 7:30. I don't know exactly. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you sit down for dinner? + +Mrs. PAINE. I suppose around 6:30. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that your best recollection? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it still light outside, natural light? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Lee Oswald join you for dinner? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did. + +Mr. JENNER. And how long did dinner take? + +Mrs. PAINE. Perhaps half an hour. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he remain in your presence during all of the dinner +period? + +Mrs. PAINE. Either there or in the living room. + +Mr. JENNER. At anytime during the dinner period, did Lee Oswald leave +your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You have a firm recollection of that? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. At anytime during that period did Lee Oswald enter the +garage area? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. Not to my recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you? + +Mrs. PAINE. The deepfreeze is in the garage. I don't recall having +gone, but I go all the time for goods for the baby, for my little boy. + +Mr. JENNER. And did you use anything from the deepfreeze normally, in +connection with the preparation of an evening meal? + +Mrs. PAINE. I could have gone out then too. + +Mr. JENNER. Though you don't recall it specifically, it is possible +that you went into the garage. + +Mrs. PAINE. It is possible. + +Mr. JENNER. Garage area. + +Senator COOPER. But you don't remember? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't remember. This is something I do as habit. + +Mr. JENNER. It is so much habit that you don't single it out? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. In any event, if you entered the garage, it was pursuant to +a normal practice of preparing dinner and not because you were seeking +to look for something out of the ordinary? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Or that your attention was arrested by something out of the +ordinary? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. After the dinner hour or half hour, whatever it took, what +did you do? Let's take say the 1-hour period following your dinner? + +Mrs. PAINE. I was busy putting my children to bed. + +Mr. JENNER. Where were you located during that period of time? + +Mrs. PAINE. I normally read them a story in the bedroom which is the +back bedroom on the north side. + +Senator COOPER. Did you do it that evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Senator COOPER. Not normally but do you remember that you did it? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am certain I read them a story. + +Senator COOPER. What? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am certain I read them a story. Whether they also had a +bath that night I can't remember. + +Mr. JENNER. Now being in your children's bedroom, which I take it was +also your bedroom---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. That would be the rear portion of your home at the corner? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. When you were in that room, what can you see with respect +to other portions of your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. The view from the bedroom door. + +Mr. JENNER. Looking into what? + +Mrs. PAINE. Looking west looks into the kitchen-dining area right past +the doorway entrance to the garage. + +Mr. JENNER. Can you see into the living room area of your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. From that doorway you can; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. If you stand in the doorway, I take it you can do so. + +Mrs. PAINE. But sitting on the bed reading a story; no. + +Mr. JENNER. But if you stood in the middle of the room and looked out +that doorway from your bedroom, you would look into the kitchen area, +not into the living room area? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. How long did you remain in your bedroom putting your +children to bed? + +Mrs. PAINE. That process can take as much as an hour and often does. + +Mr. JENNER. Give us your very best recollection of how long it took +this evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically how long. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection that you pursued your normal course +in getting them to bed. You read a story, I take it, did you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you undressed the children and placed them in the crib +or bed and you say that normally takes approximately an hour? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you remained in the bedroom during all of that 1 hour +period? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I wouldn't be certain of that; no. I also prepare a +bottle which involves going to the kitchen, and heating milk. I also +chase my children. They don't always just stay in the bedroom. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald either in or about your home +from time to time during this hour period that you were preparing your +children for sleep that evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically except that I was aware he was +in the home. + +Senator COOPER. How would you be aware he was in the home? + +Mrs. PAINE. I would have noticed it if he had gone out the door it +seems to me, out the front door. One can easily hear, and that would be +an unusual thing. + +Mr. JENNER. Why would it be unusual? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, he never did go out the front door in the evening. + +Mr. JENNER. Once he entered your home his normal practice was to stay +inside? + +Mrs. PAINE. Was to turn on the television set and sit. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he turn on the television set? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe he watched television that evening. + +Mr. JENNER. Could you tell us of any awareness on your part of his +presence in the home, that is you were definitely conscious that he +remained inside the house? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And was not out in the yard? + +Senator COOPER. How would you know that? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is a small house. You can hear if the front door or the +back door opens. But I can't be absolutely certain. + +Senator COOPER. Is what you are saying that you don't remember, or +rather that you don't remember that the front door or the back door did +open? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. I am also saying there is very little about +that evening that stood out as unusual. I have tried to say what I +could think of that did stand out as unusual. I think the rest melds +together with other evenings which were similar. + +Senator COOPER. I don't want to interrupt you but I think she has got +to tell what she remembers that evening. + +Mr. McCLOY. Yes. I think without the meticulous minute by minute, just +say what it is. + +Senator COOPER. If you don't remember, you don't remember. + +Mrs. PAINE. I am sorry. + +Mr. McCLOY. You can't break it down into sequence that far back? + +Senator COOPER. Just tell what you remember. + +Mr. JENNER. Go ahead and tell us, Mrs. Paine, the course of events that +evening, with particular reference to what we are interested in, what +Lee Oswald did and where he was during the course of that evening. + +Mrs. PAINE. I have already said that after I had my children in bed, I +went to the garage to work. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it now nighttime? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was now dark, I recall about 9 o'clock. I noticed that +the light was on. + +Mr. JENNER. Was the door to the garage open? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; it was closed. + +Mr. JENNER. It was closed. And you noticed the light on when you opened +the door. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Had the light been on at anytime to your knowledge prior to +that? + +Mrs. PAINE. Not that evening; no. + +Mr. JENNER. When entering and leaving the garage during the course of +your preparing dinner, to your recollection, was there any light on at +that time? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You didn't turn the light on at anytime up to this moment +of which you speak? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Senator COOPER. Had you been in the garage that evening before the time +that you found the light on? + +Mrs. PAINE. If I had only in this course of habit which also included +if it was dark, flipping the switch on and flipping it off. + +Senator COOPER. You don't remember if you did that or not before. + +Mrs. PAINE. Specifically, no. + +Mr. McCLOY. She said she might have been. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that a hand switch? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You must trip it. Where is the switch located, in the +kitchen or in the garage? + +Mrs. PAINE. The switch is in the garage. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, the witness has before her Commission Exhibit +435, which is a picture of her home, looking through the door leading +to the garage from the kitchen. Is the light switch shown in that +picture? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; it is not. + +Mr. JENNER. And why is it not shown? + +Mrs. PAINE. The light switch that turns on the light in the garage is +on the interior of the garage approximately through the wall from the +switch you see in the picture, which lights the kitchen, or the dining +area overhead light. + +Mr. JENNER. And the switch that is shown in the picture, is it to the +right of the doorjamb? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And rather high? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Placed high, and on the picture it is shown as having, oh, +is that a white plastic plate? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is exactly. + +Mr. JENNER. And the switch that lights the garage light is directly +opposite on the other side of the wall inside the garage? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now directing your attention to Commission Exhibit 429, +that is a picture, is it not, of the garage interior of your home taken +from the outlet door of the garage and looking back toward the kitchen? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that correct? And does that show the doorway from the +garage into your kitchen? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. In other words, the opposite side of the wall, which is +shown in Commission Exhibit 435? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And are you able to locate the light switch on Commission +Exhibit 429 which is the garage interior exhibit? That is, can you see +the switch? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I am not certain I can. This is something else. + +Mr. JENNER. I point out to you the configuration which is halfway down +the garage doorjamb outline. + +Mrs. PAINE. Right next to the top surface of the deepfreeze. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. Is that the light switch? + +Mrs. PAINE. I thought it was higher. + +Senator COOPER. You know there is a light switch there, don't you? + +Mr. McCLOY. There is a light switch there. + +Mrs. PAINE. I know I don't pull the string which is there clearly in +the picture. + +Mr. JENNER. You step down into the garage do you, or is it at the +kitchen floor level? + +Mrs. PAINE. Are you still asking? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. No; you don't step down, perhaps 3 inches all together. + +Mr. JENNER. The floor of the garage and the floor of the kitchen are at +a level? + +Mrs. PAINE. Approximately at a level. + +Mr. JENNER. Why did you enter the garage on that occasion? + +Mrs. PAINE. I was about to lacquer some children's large blocks, +playing blocks. + +Mr. JENNER. These are blocks that you had cut at some other time? + +Mrs. PAINE. I had cut them on the saw in the garage; yes; previously. + +Mr. JENNER. Proceed. + +Representative FORD. Mr. Jenner, may I ask a question there? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Representative FORD. Some people have a habit of turning lights on and +off again regularly. Others are a little careless about it. Would you +describe your attitude in this regard? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am definitely a person with the habit of turning them off. + +Representative FORD. This is a trait that you have? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Representative FORD. Now, if you were to go out from the kitchen to the +garage, is it easy for you as you go out the door to turn the light on? + +Mrs. PAINE. And off; yes. + +Representative FORD. It is very simple for you to do so? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Representative FORD. Both going out and coming in? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Representative FORD. And as you go out on your right or left? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is on my left as I go out of the garage. + +Representative FORD. And as you come in from the garage to the kitchen +it is on your right. + +Mrs. PAINE. As you come into the garage from the kitchen---- + +Mr. McCLOY. When you are going out to the garage, on which side is it? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is on my right. + +Mr. McCLOY. On your right. Coming out from the garage to the kitchen it +is on your left? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is what he said. + +Mr. McCLOY. You said it just the opposite, I think. + +Representative FORD. I thought I asked the question and she responded +in the reverse. + +Mr. McCLOY. Maybe. + +Representative FORD. And it surprised me a little bit. The record may +show two different responses there. + +Mr. JENNER. Could we recover that now? + +Mrs. PAINE. The switch is on the west doorjamb of that door between the +two rooms. + +Mr. JENNER. Perhaps that may help, Mrs. Paine. When you are in the +kitchen about to enter the garage, the doorway from the kitchen to the +garage, and you are going to enter from the kitchen into the garage, +where is the switch with respect to whether it is on your right side or +your left side? + +Mrs. PAINE. Just coming into the garage it is on my right side. + +Mr. JENNER. That is leaving your kitchen entering the garage it is on +your right side. Now when you are in the garage and you are about to +enter the kitchen, the switch then is on your left? Is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Representative FORD. That clarifies it. May I now ask in your +observations of either Marina or Lee, were they the type that were +conscious of turning light switches on or off? Was this an automatic +reaction? Were they careless about it? What was their trait if you have +any observation? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall any other time that the garage light had +been left on, and I would say certainly I saw enough of Marina to be +able to state what I thought would be a trait, and she would normally +turn off a light when she was done, in the room. + +Representative FORD. She had the normal reaction of turning a light off +if she left a room? + +Mrs. PAINE. Her own room. Now you see most of the rooms--if she was +the last one in the room she would turn it off; yes; going to bed or +something like that she certainly would turn it off. + +Mr. JENNER. Of course if she was going to bed she would turn the light +off. But when she was leaving the room, was it her tendency to turn off +the light? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, the garage light is the only room in my house you +leave not to come back to right away. The whole house is active all the +time until bedtime. It is hard to answer. + +Mr. JENNER. So the lights are on? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Representative FORD. Would you make any observation about Lee's +tendencies or traits in this regard? + +Mrs. PAINE. I can't say I have observation as to his tendencies. + +Mr. JENNER. It was your habit, however, as far as you are concerned +with respect to the light in the garage to turn it off when you left +the garage? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What were your habits with respect to closing the main +garage door, that is the door opening onto the street? + +Mrs. PAINE. That was always closed except to open just to take out the +trash can. + +Mr. JENNER. And though it is shown in one of the photographs as open. + +Mrs. PAINE. That was done for the purpose of the photograph by the FBI. + +Mr. JENNER. So that normally your garage door is down? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it down when you arrived? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was. + +Mr. JENNER. At your home when you were surprised to see Lee Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it certainly was. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have recollection whether anytime that evening of +hearing the garage door being raised or seeing the garage door up? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have no such recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection that it was down at all times? + +Mrs. PAINE. I wasn't in the garage. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, you entered the garage did you not that evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. Except then; yes, at 9 or so. It was certainly down. + +Mr. JENNER. It was down then? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You say your home is small and you can hear even the front +door opening. Does the raising of the garage door cause some clatter? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it does. + +Mr. JENNER. And had the garage door been raised, even though you were +giving attention to your children, would you have heard it? + +Mrs. PAINE. If it was raised slow and carefully; no, I would not have +heard it. + +Mr. JENNER. But if it were raised normally? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You would have heard it. And it is your recollection that +at no time that evening were you conscious of that garage door having +been raised. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. You had reached the point at which you said you entered the +garage to, did you say, lacquer some blocks which you had prepared? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you notice in the garage when you entered it to +lacquer those blocks? + +Mrs. PAINE. The garage was as I always found it, and I went and got the +lacquer from the workbench on the west side of the garage and painted +the blocks on top of the deepfreeze. My motions were in the interior +portion. + +Mr. JENNER. That is in the area of the garage near the kitchen entrance? + +Mrs. PAINE. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. How long were you in the garage on that occasion? + +Mrs. PAINE. About a half an hour. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you leave the garage light on while you worked in the +garage? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You are definitely conscious, however, of the fact that +when you entered the garage the light was on? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am certain of that. I thought it quite sloppy to have +left it on. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you make any inquiry of Marina or of Lee Oswald as to +the light having been left on? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. No comment at all? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is my recollection that by the time I was ready to go to +the garage to work, say 9 o'clock, Lee had already retired. + +Mr. JENNER. Now we would like to know, tell us how you were definitely +conscious that he had retired by that time? + +Mrs. PAINE. He was in the bedroom. Traffic between the bedroom where he +was and the bathroom crosses in front of the doorway, the front of the +room where I was. + +Senator COOPER. Did you see him in the bedroom? + +Mrs. PAINE. In the bedroom? + +Senator COOPER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. No; but I'd be---- + +Senator COOPER. What? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; but I'd be fairly certain I saw him go to it. + +Senator COOPER. You saw him go to it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You saw him passing back and forth from the bedroom to the +bathroom and he had his ablutions and then returned to the bedroom to +retire, is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. That is your definite consciousness? + +Mrs. PAINE. All of this was so common that I made no specific note of +it. + +Senator COOPER. I think you have got to tell what you remember that +night. If you can't remember it, you can't remember it. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. But you do remember him passing back and forth from the +bedroom that he and Marina normally occupied when he was there, and +she occupied when she was there, to the bathroom, and then back to the +bedroom. You do have that recollection? + +Mrs. PAINE. I recall specifically the feeling that he was in the room, +and this grounded no doubt in his having been back and forth as you +have described. + +Mr. JENNER. You remained in the garage about a half hour lacquering +your children's blocks. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You left the garage then, did you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. And where did you go when you left the garage? + +Mrs. PAINE. To the kitchen or living room. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see anybody when you entered the kitchen or living +room? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; Marina was still up. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see Lee Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see Lee Oswald anytime from that moment forward +until you retired for the evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. I saw Lee Oswald at no time from that moment forward. + +Mr. JENNER. The answer to my question is no? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you speak with him or he with you at anytime from that +moment forward until you retired? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you conscious that he spoke to Marina at anytime from +that moment forward until you retired that evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. I was not conscious that he spoke to Marina; no. + +Mr. JENNER. Or she with him? + +Mrs. PAINE. Or she with him. + +Mr. JENNER. What time that evening did you retire? + +Mrs. PAINE. I would guess around 11 or 11:30. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Marina remain up and retire at anytime or had she +retired earlier? + +Mrs. PAINE. It seems to me we remained up and retired at about the same +time, having folded laundry on the sofa before we retired, and talked. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you looking at the television while you were doing the +folding? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. I don't think so. + +Mr. JENNER. Now let us return to the garage for a moment. When you were +in the garage for the half hour, did you notice the blanket wrapped +package you testified about yesterday? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't specifically recall seeing it; no. + +Mr. JENNER. You first weren't conscious of it? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. You didn't stumble over it. + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. It wasn't drawn to your attention in any fashion. Is that +correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, as you and Marina sat that evening, folding the +ironing, what did you discuss? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion that might serve to refresh your +recollection, any discussion of the fact that Lee Oswald had come home +or come to Irving in the first place on a Thursday afternoon, which is +unusual, or that he had come home unannounced and without invitation, +which also as you have testified was unusual? Wasn't there any +discussion between you and Marina, speculation at least on your part as +to why he was home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, there was discussion. I can't recall exactly what time +in the evening it took place but I recall the content of the discussion. + +Mr. JENNER. You tell us about it. + +Mrs. PAINE. She suggested that he was making up the quarrel that they +had had because of her attempt to reach him by telephone, and I agreed, +concurred with that judgment of it. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the attitude that evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. He was very warm and friendly. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there anything unusual about his attitude and conduct +that evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. Nothing except he went to bed a little earlier than he +normally would have on a Sunday evening before work. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you conscious of the fact that he was retiring a +little earlier than he normally would? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And did you speculate in your mind as to why that might be? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. I knew that he would go to bed as early as 10 o'clock +say on the Sunday evening before going to work the next day. This was +just, still early. + +Mr. JENNER. What was Marina's attitude toward him that evening? Was she +reserved because of this quarrel? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. I think she felt the best thing was to pass it by and +not discuss it. + +Mr. JENNER. That was your impression of her? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Of her conduct. + +Senator COOPER. That is just your idea about it, isn't it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, and that I saw her do exactly, that too. + +Mr. JENNER. Do exactly what? + +Mrs. PAINE. She didn't ask him why he had come. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. You were present when Marina put a question +to---- + +Mrs. PAINE. She did not ask him. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, she did not. + +Mr. McCLOY. She did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, I am sorry. + +Mrs. PAINE. Certainly not in my presence. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression as to how long he had been at +your home prior to your driving down the street and first seeing him? + +Mrs. PAINE. He usually arrived from his ride with Wesley Frazier +somewhere around a quarter of 5, so I guess it was a few minutes to 10 +minutes. + +Mr. JENNER. You arrived at your home in the neighborhood of 5:25 or +5:30. So it is your impression that he had been at your home from 10 to +15 minutes? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I say from a few minutes to 10 minutes. + +Mr. JENNER. A few minutes to 10 minutes. Did Marina say anything that +evening of his having a package with him when he came to your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; she didn't. + +Mr. JENNER. No discussion of that nature occurred? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. I am going to put a general question to you. Do you have +any recollection at all of Lee Oswald actually being in the garage of +your home that evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have said that I had the feeling from traffic that had +preceded it that he was in the bedroom when I saw he was no longer in +the rest of the house. When I saw the light was on, my distinct thought +was that he had left it on. I think that was founded upon an awareness +of what Marina had been doing and I suppose what he was doing. + +Mr. JENNER. You say doing. You mean an awareness---- + +Mrs. PAINE. In other words, it was common for both Marina and Lee to go +to the garage, but when I saw the light was on I was certain it was Lee +that had left it on. + +Mr. JENNER. Rather than Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. Rather than Marina. + +Mr. JENNER. Because of her habit of turning off lights? + +Mrs. PAINE. Not only that. I feel that I--memory of what she had been +doing during the time that I was also putting the children to bed. She +was involved with the children. + +Mr. JENNER. May we possibly do this. Did you see Marina in the garage +at anytime? + +Mrs. PAINE. That evening? + +Mr. JENNER. That evening. + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You did not see Lee Oswald in the garage at anytime that +evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. Did not see him in the garage; no. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I intend at this moment to proceed to the +next day. I wondered if members of the Commission have any further +questions of Mrs. Paine with respect to the afternoon or evening of +November 21? + +Mr. McCLOY. I don't have any. I think she has covered it all. I would +remind you that we have got to be leaving, Mr. Ford and I, and Senator +Cooper around noon. We would like to make as much progress as we can +before we go. + +Mr. JENNER. That is fine. I will have completed this phase. + +Senator COOPER. If you can get through the events of the 22d. + +Mr. JENNER. You retired along about 11:30? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. The evening of the 21st. Did you sleep through the night? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I woke at 7:30. + +Mr. JENNER. The children did not awaken you at anytime during the night +and nothing else awakened you? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that anything woke me; no. + +Mr. JENNER. Is your recollection sufficient that you were not awakened +during the night, that is your definite impression at the moment? + +Mrs. PAINE. I get up often in the night to change a diaper or cover a +child, but this is a matter of habit and I don't recall whether this +night contained such a getting up or not. + +Mr. JENNER. You sleep with your children, do you not? + +Mrs. PAINE. We are in the same bedroom. + +Mr. JENNER. You awakened when in the morning? + +Mrs. PAINE. At 7:30. + +Mr. JENNER. And when you awakened, immediately after you awakened what +did you do? + +Mrs. PAINE. When I awoke I felt the house was extremely quiet and the +thought occurred to me that Lee might have overslept. I wondered if he +had gotten up in time to get off around 7 o'clock because I knew he +had to go to meet Wesley Frazier to catch his ride. I looked about and +found a plastic coffee cup in the sink that had clearly been used and +judged he had had a cup of coffee and left. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see any other evidence of his having had breakfast? + +Mrs. PAINE. That was all he normally had for breakfast. + +Mr. JENNER. A plastic coffee cup with some remains in it of coffee? + +Mrs. PAINE. Instant coffee; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What was his habit with respect to his breakfast when he +made his visits? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was very normal for him to take coffee. + +Mr. JENNER. Was Marina up and about when you arose at 7:30? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; she was not. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection of the garage area? Was the door +to the garage, the entrance to the garage from the kitchen, closed or +open? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was closed. Would it help if I tried to narrate what +happened? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. McCLOY. Go ahead and narrate. + +Mrs. PAINE. I fixed breakfast for myself and my children, turned on +the television set to hear President Kennedy speak in Fort Worth, and +had breakfast there. I left the house about 9 with my little girl and +boy, because she had a dentist appointment, the little girl. I left the +television set on, feeling that Marina might not think to turn it on, +but I knew that she would be interested to see President Kennedy. + +I then was gone until nearly noon, 11:30 or so, both to the dentist +and on some errands following that, came back and there was coverage +of the fact of the motorcade in Dallas, but there was no television +cameras showing it, as you know, and Marina thanked me for having left +the television set on. She said she woke up in kind of a bad mood, but +she had seen the arrival of President Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy at the +airport in Dallas, and had been thrilled with this occasion and with +the greeting he had received, and it had lifted her spirits. + +Very shortly after this time, I had only just begun to prepare the +lunch, the announcement was made that the President had been shot, and +I translated this to Marina. She had not caught it from the television +statement. And I was crying as I did the translation. And then we sat +down and waited at the television set, no longer interested in the +preparing of lunch, and waited to hear further word. + +I got out some candles and lit them, and my little girl also lighted a +candle, and Marina said to me, "Is that a way of praying?", and I said +"Yes, it is, just my own way." And it was well over an hour before we +heard definitely that the President was dead. + +Mr. JENNER. How did that come to your attention? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was announced on the television. I think it was even +still in the intervening time. It was announced on the television that +the shot which was supposed to have killed the President was fired from +the Texas School Book Depository Building on Elm. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you communicate that to her? + +Mrs. PAINE. Marina at this time was in the yard hanging some clothes. I +recall going out to her and telling her this. + +Mr. JENNER. What did she say? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe she said anything. I then also---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. You say "I don't believe she said anything." Is +it your recollection? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall anything at all that she said. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you---- + +Mr. McCLOY. You told her that you had heard over the television? + +Mrs. PAINE. I heard that the shot had been made---- + +Mr. McCLOY. Coming from the Texas School Book Depository? + +Mrs. PAINE. Schoolbook depository, and I believe I also said I didn't +know there was a building on Elm. + +Senator COOPER. Why did you go out to tell her, this fact? + +Mrs. PAINE. I felt this was terribly close, somebody working in that +building had been there. I thought Lee might be able to say somewhat +about what happened, had been close to the event. This was my thought, +that we would know somebody who would be able to give or possibly give +a first-hand---- + +Senator COOPER. Did you have any thought at all that Lee Oswald might +have been the man who fired the shot? + +Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely none; no. + +Mr. JENNER. Why was that, Mrs. Paine? + +Mrs. PAINE. I had never thought of him as a violent man. He had never +said anything against President Kennedy, nor anything about President +Kennedy. I had no idea that he had a gun. There was nothing that I +had seen about him that indicated a man with that kind of grudge or +hostility. + +Mr. McCLOY. But you told this to Marina because of the association of +Lee Oswald with the schoolbook depository? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I then proceeded to hang some clothes. + +Mr. JENNER. She did not comment? + +Mrs. PAINE. She did not comment. + +Mr. JENNER. Made no comment? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection, that she made no comment. I then +helped hang the clothes. My recollection skips then to being again in +front of the television listening, and it was then that we heard that +the President was dead. We were both sitting on the sofa. + +Mr. JENNER. Marina had come in from the yard? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. From the hanging of the clothes? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall whether we came in together or whether she +preceded me into the house while I finished hanging up the clothes. But +I do recall then next sitting on the sofa when the announcement was +definitely made that the President was dead. And she said to me "What +a terrible thing this was for Mrs. Kennedy and for the two children." +I remember her words were, "Now the two children will have to grow +up without the father." It was very shortly after this we were still +sitting on the sofa. + +Mr. McCLOY. Just take a little time and compose yourself. + +Mrs. PAINE. My neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, came in, really I think to see +if we had heard, and---- + +Senator COOPER. Why don't you rest a few minutes? + +Mrs. PAINE. I can proceed. I recall my feeling of anger with her for +not being more upset, or she didn't appear to me to be, any more than +reporting a remarkable news item. Then it was shortly after that that +the bell rang and I went to the door and met some six officers from the +sheriff's office and police station. + +Mr. JENNER. Was this approximately 3:30 p.m.? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I think it was earlier, but I wouldn't be certain. I +know that we had put our children to bed. They were all taking a nap, +though I am not certain. Yes, my little girl was asleep also. I cried +after I had heard that the President was dead, and my little girl was +upset, too, always taking it from me more than from any understanding +of the situation. And she cried herself to sleep on the sofa, and I +moved her to her bed, and Christopher was already asleep in his crib. +June was in bed asleep. + +Mr. JENNER. Was Marina emotional at all? Did she cry? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. She said to me, "I feel very badly also, but we seem to +show that we are upset in different ways." She did not actually cry. + +Mr. McCLOY. May I go back a moment there, if I may. You said you +were sitting on the sofa--that she and you were sitting on the sofa. +While you were listening or looking at the television, was there any +announcement over the television of a suspicion being cast at Lee? + +Mrs. PAINE. It had just been announced that they had caught someone in +a theatre, but there was no name given. + +Mr. McCLOY. So up to this point there was no suggestion that Lee was +involved? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; not until the time the officers came to the door. + +Mr. McCLOY. Not until the officers came? + +Mrs. PAINE. Do you want to ask me about that? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. Now, the officers came to the door---- + +Mr. McCLOY. Pardon me. Were you asking a question? + +Mr. JENNER. I was waiting for you. + +Mr. McCLOY. Senator Cooper reminded me that there were comments, +apparently to the effect that somebody from that building had fired the +shots. Did you hear that when you were sitting on the sofa with Marina? +Did you hear that comment on the television? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; that was earlier. + +Mr. McCLOY. That was even earlier? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; before it was announced that he was dead. + +Senator COOPER. But when you were all sitting there---- + +Mrs. PAINE. It was at that point that I went out to the yard to tell +her. + +Senator COOPER. To tell her? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Senator COOPER. After that when you went back in and you all were +sitting on the sofa and she was there, were there any other comments +over the television that someone from this building had fired the shot +or that any suspects from---- + +Mrs. PAINE. You mean, someone associated with the building? + +Senator COOPER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. No; that was not said. + +Senator COOPER. There was nothing else said about that? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; just that the shot came from the building. + +Mr. McCLOY. Nothing else that you heard? + +Mrs. PAINE. Nothing else about it. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you do have a definite recollection that you +communicated to Marina out in the yard that the shot had come from the +Texas School Book Depository? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And what did she do when you communicated that to her, +apart from what she said? You told us what she said. What did she do? +Did she come in the house? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she enter the garage? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't know. I never saw her enter the garage, but my +recollection is that I was outside hanging clothes after I told her +this, but what I can't recall is whether she remained with me hanging +the clothes or whether she went in the house. + +Mr. JENNER. She might have gone into the house? + +Mrs. PAINE. She might have gone into the house. + +Mr. JENNER. But, in any event, you do not recall her entering the +garage following your advising her of the announcement that the shot +had come, or was thought to have come from the Texas School Book +Depository? + +Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall. + +Senator COOPER. When you went out to tell her, was she hanging clothes? + +Mrs. PAINE. She was hanging clothes. + +Senator COOPER. Then did you go help her, and then both of you were +hanging clothes? + +Mrs. PAINE. I then helped her. What I can't remember is whether she +remained and finished the job with me. I remember I finished, remained +until they were all hung. + +Senator COOPER. Do you remember at anytime after that whether or not +you were hanging clothes alone? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is what I am not certain about. I could well have been. + +Mr. JENNER. At anytime that afternoon, in any event, up to the time +that the policeman rang your doorbell, did you observe or were you +aware that Marina had entered the garage? + +Mrs. PAINE. I wasn't aware that she had entered, if she did. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it from your testimony it is possible that Marina, +after you advised her that the shot was thought to have come from this +Texas School Book Depository, that she might have been inside your home +while you were still out in the yard? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And, of course, if that is so, then she could have entered +the garage while she was inside your home, and you were out in the yard +hanging clothes? + +Mrs. PAINE. And I would not have seen her; that is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, this clothes-hanging occurred in the rear, the yard +portion in the rear of your home; is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it possible--is there a window in the garage opening on +the rear of your home on to that yard area, or is the wall blank? + +Mrs. PAINE. The window one can look into from the area where one hangs +clothes goes to the dining area. From where I stood, I could not have +seen the door entering the garage, which would be just beyond---- + +Mr. JENNER. You are talking about the inside door? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. First I would like to know this---- + +Mrs. PAINE. The answer to your question is clear if you see the plan +of the interior of the house. No part of the garage shows, no wall or +window or any part of the garage shows from the back---- + +Mr. JENNER. There is no opening from the rear of the garage, is there? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. So you can't see into the garage, at least from---- + +Mrs. PAINE. From the back of my house you can't; no. + +Mr. JENNER. There are windows opening from your kitchen into the back +part, into the yard, are there not? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And being in the yard, could you see when somebody passed +across that window, let us say, headed for the garage area? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. Heading for the garage area, you would not pass across +that window. + +Mr. JENNER. You would not. In any event, you had no consciousness at +anytime that day or afternoon of Marina having entered the garage up to +the time the police came? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that true of the time in the morning that you have been +describing? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. At anytime from 7:30 in the morning, from the time you +awakened until the time the police came, you have no consciousness that +Marina was in the garage? + +Mrs. PAINE. No consciousness of that. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you enter the garage during this period of time? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have no specific recollection of having done so. + +Mr. JENNER. And you have given us Marina's total exclamation or +response to your advising her that the shot had come from the Texas +School Book Depository? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. You have recounted that your next-door neighbor, Mrs. +Robert--or is it Roberts? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Came over. Was Marina present---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. When she arrived at your home? Were you girls in the living +room? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you sit down and talk? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. She just came to the door to see if we had heard the +news. + +Mr. JENNER. She was there just a bit of the time? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. She did not come, actually, into the house. + +Mr. JENNER. She did not. She stood in the doorway? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And did she speak to you and to Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, she spoke in English, and I doubt she said much more +than, "Have you heard?". + +Mr. JENNER. Did Marina say anything to you for translation of Mrs. +Reynolds? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. Roberts. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Roberts; while Mrs. Roberts was there? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Learning that you girls were aware of the events up to that +moment, she left and, as far as you know, returned to her home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, that morning--if I may, Mr. Chairman, because of the +entry of the police, that is a good cutoff point, I would like to go +back to the morning for the moment, or the evening before. Mrs. Paine, +did you then have what might be called some curtain rods in your garage? + +Mrs. PAINE. I believe there were. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they were stored in the garage, wrapped in loose brown +paper. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it the brown paper of the nature and character you +described yesterday that you get at the market and have in a roll? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you wrapped that package yourself? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, curtain rods can be of various types. One type of +curtain rod, as I remember, is a solid brass rod. Others are hollow. +Some are shaped. Would you describe these curtain rods, please? + +Mrs. PAINE. They were a light weight. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me; do you still have them? + +Mrs. PAINE. I still have them. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mrs. PAINE. Metal rods that you slip the curtain over, not with a ring +but just with the cloth itself, and they are expansion rods. + +Mr. JENNER. Are they flat on one side? + +Mrs. PAINE. They are flat on one side; about an inch wide and about a +quarter of an inch thick. + +Mr. JENNER. And assume we are holding the rod horizontally, do the +edges of the rod slip over? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Senator COOPER. Did you wrap these rods in the paper? Had you wrapped +them? + +Mrs. PAINE. Sometime previously I had. + +Senator COOPER. How long before? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, possibly a year. + +Senator COOPER. What? + +Mrs. PAINE. Possibly a year. + +Senator COOPER. As far as you know, they had never been changed? + +Mrs. PAINE. Moved about, but not changed. + +Senator COOPER. Can you just describe the length? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Senator COOPER. The length of the rods, at the time you wrapped them. + +Mrs. PAINE. They would be 36 inches when pushed together. + +Senator COOPER. What? + +Mrs. PAINE. They would be about maybe 36 inches when pushed together. + +Senator COOPER. You remember wrapping them. Do you remember what the +size, the length of the rods were at the time you wrapped them? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Senator COOPER. How long? + +Mrs. PAINE. Didn't I answer about 36 inches? + +Mr. JENNER. In other words, you pushed them together so that then, they +were then their minimum length, unexpanded? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. They were not extended, and in that condition they were 36 +inches long? + +Mrs. PAINE. Something like that. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, how many of them were there? + +Mrs. PAINE. Two. + +Mr. JENNER. These were lightweight metal? + +Mrs. PAINE. Very. Now, there was another item that was both heavier and +longer. + +Mr. JENNER. In that same package? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't think so. In another similar package wrapped +up just to keep the dust off were two Venetian blinds. I guess they +were not longer, more like 36 inches also, that had come from the two +windows in my bedroom. I took them down to change, and put up pull +blinds in their place. + +Mr. JENNER. And had you wrapped them? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. How many were there? + +Mrs. PAINE. Two. + +Mr. JENNER. And what was their length? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think around 36 inches. The width of these windows in the +back bedroom. + +Mr. JENNER. Let us return to the curtain rods first. Do you still have +those curtain rods? + +Mrs. PAINE. I believe so. + +Mr. JENNER. You believe so, or you know; which? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think Michael went to look after the assassination, +whether these were still in the garage. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have a conversation with Michael as to whether he +did or didn't look? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Why was he looking to see if the curtain rod package was +there? + +Mrs. PAINE. He was particularly interested in the wrapping, was the +wrapping still there, the brown paper. + +Mr. JENNER. When did this take place? + +Mrs. PAINE. After the assassination, perhaps a week or so later, +perhaps when one of the FBI people were out; I don't really recall. + +Mr. JENNER. And was the package with the curtain rods found on that +occasion? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is my recollection it was. + +Mr. JENNER. What about the Venetian blind package? + +Mrs. PAINE. Still there, still wrapped. + +Mr. JENNER. You are fully conscious of the fact that that package is +still there? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And to the best of your knowledge, information, and belief +the other package, likewise, is there? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Senator COOPER. Let me ask a question there. After the assassination, +at anytime did you go into the garage and look to see if both of these +packages were there? + +Mrs. PAINE. A week and a half, or a week later. + +Senator COOPER. At any time? + +Mrs. PAINE. Did I, personally? + +Senator COOPER. Have you seen these packages since the assassination? + +Mrs. PAINE. It seems to me I recall seeing a package. + +Senator COOPER. What? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall opening it up and looking in carefully. I +seem to recall seeing the package. + +Senator COOPER. Both of them? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Senator COOPER. Or just one? + +Mrs. PAINE. Both. + +Senator COOPER. Did you feel them to see if the rods were in there? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. I think Michael did, but I am not certain. + +Senator COOPER. But you never did, yourself? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was not my most pressing---- + +Senator COOPER. What? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was not the most pressing thing I had to do at that time. + +Senator COOPER. I know that. But you must have read after the +assassination the story about Lee Oswald saying, he told Mr. Frazier, I +think, that he was carrying some curtain rods in the car? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Senator COOPER. Do you remember reading that? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I remember reading that. + +Senator COOPER. Didn't that lead you--Did it lead you then to go in and +see if the curtain rods were there? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was all I could do at that point to answer my door, +answer my telephone, and take care of my children. + +Senator COOPER. I understand you had many things to do. + +Mrs. PAINE. So I did not. + +Senator COOPER. You never did do it? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am not certain whether I specifically went in and checked +on that. I recall a conversation with Michael about it and, to the best +of my recollection, things looked as I expected to find them looking +out there. This package with brown paper was still there. + +Mr. JENNER. By any chance, does that package appear in the photograph +that you have identified of the interior of your garage? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think it is this that is on a shelf almost to the ceiling. + +Mr. JENNER. May I get over here, Mr. Chairman? + +Mrs. PAINE. Along the west edge of the garage, up here. + +Mr. JENNER. In view of this, I think it is of some importance that you +mark on Commission Exhibit 429 what appears to you to be the package in +which the curtain rods were. + +Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. Now the witness has by an arrow indicated a shelf very +close to the ceiling in the rear of the garage, and an arrow pointing +to what appears to be a long package on that shelf, underneath which +she has written "Wrapping paper around venetian blinds"---- + +Mrs. PAINE. "And thin." + +Mr. JENNER. What is the next word? + +Mrs. PAINE. "Curtain rods." + +Mr. JENNER. There were two packages, Mrs. Paine, one with the rods and +one with the Venetian blinds? + +Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall. The rods were so thin they hardly warranted +a package of their own, but that is rationalization, as you call it. + +Mr. JENNER. You do have a recollection that those rods were a very +lightweight metal? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. They were not round. + +Mr. JENNER. They were flat and slender? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. They were not at all heavy? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. They were curved? Were they curved in any respect? + +Mrs. PAINE. They curved at the ends to attach to the bracket that held +them up on the wall. + +Mr. JENNER. May I use the chalk on the board, Mr. Chairman. Perhaps it +might be better for you, Mrs. Paine, so I don't influence you. Would +you draw a picture of the rods? + +Mrs. PAINE. You are looking down from the top. It attaches here, well, +over a loop thing on the wall. Looking from the inside, it curves over +a slight bit, and then this is recessed. + +Mr. JENNER. I am going to have to have you do that over on a sheet of +paper. Will you remain standing for the moment. We will give it an +exhibit number. But I would like to have you proceed there. What did +you say this was, in the lower diagram? + +Mrs. PAINE. You are looking down. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, where was the break? + +Mrs. PAINE. The break? + +Mr. JENNER. You said they were extension. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. When they are up on the window, it would be +like that. + +Mr. JENNER. You have drawn a double line to indicate what would be seen +if you were looking down into the U-shape of the rod? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. The double line indicates what on either side? + +Mrs. PAINE. That the lightweight metal, white, turned over, bent +around, something less than a quarter of an inch on each side. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, would you be good enough to make the same drawing. +We will mark that sheet as Commission Exhibit No. 449 upon which the +witness is now drawing the curtain rod. + +(Commission Exhibit No. 449 was marked for identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. While you are doing that, Mrs. Paine, would you be good +enough when you return to Irving, Tex., to see if those rods are at +hand, and some of our men are going to be in Irving next week. We might +come out and take a look at them, and perhaps you might surrender them +to us. + +Mrs. PAINE. You are perfectly welcome to them. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you in that connection, Mrs. Paine, do not open the +package until we arrive? + +Mrs. PAINE. I won't even look, then. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, would you mark "A" in the upper elevation +and "B" in the lower elevation. The elevation in the drawing you have +indicated as "A" is a depiction of what? + +Mrs. PAINE. The curtain rod, as you might look at it from the top when +it is hanging in its position, when it is placed in position on the +window. + +Mr. JENNER. And "B"? + +Mrs. PAINE. "B" is as it might appear if you could look at it from +outside the house; the window. + +Mr. JENNER. While the rod was in place? + +Mrs. PAINE. While the rod was in place. + +Mr. JENNER. You have written to the left-hand side "Place at which it +attaches to wall fixture," indicating the butt end of the curved side +of the rod? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And the two oblongs, each of which you have put at the ends +of depiction "B," represent the upturned ends of the fixtures at each +end? + +Mrs. PAINE. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you put a little line as to where the break was in +the rod. + +I offer in evidence, Mr. Chairman, as Commission Exhibit No. 449 +the drawing that the witness has just made, and about which she has +testified. + +Senator COOPER. It will be admitted as part of the evidence. + +(Commission Exhibit No. 449 was received in evidence.) + +Mr. JENNER. Had there been any conversation between you and Lee Oswald, +or between you and Marina, or any conversation taking place in your +presence prior to this occasion, in which the subject of curtain rods +was mentioned? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; there was no such conversation. + +Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of curtain rods--had that ever been +mentioned during all of these weekends that Lee Oswald had come to your +home, commencing, I think you said, with his first return on October 4, +1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. It had not been mentioned. + +Mr. JENNER. Never by anybody? + +Mrs. PAINE. By anybody. + +Mr. JENNER. Had the subject of curtain rods been mentioned even +inadvertently, let us say, by some neighbor talking about the subject, +as to whether you had some curtain rods you weren't using? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. That might be loaned? I think you had testified that the +curtain rods, when unextended, were 36 inches long, approximately? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is a guess. I would say, thinking further about it, it +must be shorter than that. One went over a window that I am pretty sure +was 30 inches wide, and one went over a window that was 42 inches wide, +so it had to extend between these. They were identical, and had served +at these different windows. + +Mr. JENNER. The rods were identical in length when unextended? + +Mrs. PAINE. Or when fully extended; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What? + +Mrs. PAINE. Or when fully extended. + +Mr. JENNER. Or when fully extended; yes. They could be extended to as +great as 42 inches? + +Mrs. PAINE. At least that. I am just saying what windows they were used +for. + +Mr. JENNER. If the rods are still available, we will be able to obtain +them? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And we will know exactly their length, extended and +unextended. Now, as you think further about it, the rods when not +extended, that is, when pushed together, might be but 30 inches long? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Because you recall that you have a 30-inch-wide window. + +Mrs. PAINE. I believe it is more that width than 36. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you hold up your hands to indicate what you think the +width or the length of the rods is when not extended? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I don't recall. Maybe like this. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you measure that, Mr. Liebeler, please? + +Mr. LIEBELER. About 28 inches. + +Mr. JENNER. I intend to leave the subject of the curtain rods, +gentlemen, if you have any questions. + +Mr. McCLOY. May I ask a question. Did the FBI question you about the +curtain rods any, or the Dallas police officials? + +Mrs. PAINE. Not the Dallas police. + +Mr. McCLOY. Not the Dallas police? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. It is possible the FBI did. I don't recall such +question. + +Mr. McCLOY. They didn't take any rods from the garage that you are +aware of? + +Mrs. PAINE. You are aware what the police took. I never did know +exactly what they took. I have never heard any mention of the rods +having left. + +Mr. McCLOY. You are not conscious of the Dallas police ever talking to +you about curtain rods? + +Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely no. + +Mr. McCLOY. But possibly some member of the FBI did? + +Mrs. PAINE. Possibly. I can't recall. + +Mr. McCLOY. You can't recall? + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever mention to the FBI anything, or anybody else +up until recently, the existence of the curtain rods about which you +have now testified? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have already said Michael and I discussed it. + +Mr. JENNER. When? + +Mrs. PAINE. A week or two after the assassination would be my guess. + +Mr. JENNER. And did you discuss those particular curtain rods about +which you have now testified? + +Mrs. PAINE. We were particularly interested in seeing if the wrapping +paper that we used to wrap these things was there, and it was. I recall +that. + +Representative FORD. Did Lee Oswald know where you kept this roll of +wrapping paper? + +Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my knowledge, he did not know where I kept +it. I had never wrapped something when he was around. Neither he nor +Marina had ever asked to use this paper or the string that I had. + +Representative FORD. Where did you keep it? I don't recall precisely. + +Mrs. PAINE. I can be very clear. There is a picture here of a large +secretary desk on Commission Exhibit No. 435. It is in the bottom +drawer, you see, in that desk. This is not the secretary desk upon +which---- + +Mr. JENNER. The note was found? + +Mrs. PAINE. The note was found. + +Representative FORD. You kept it in the lower drawer? + +Mrs. PAINE. Along with some gum tape and string. + +Representative FORD. And this is the section shown on Commission +Exhibit 435? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, you caught the measurement by Mr. Liebeler, +28 inches. Mrs. Paine, what is your best recollection as to how many +curtain rods there were? + +Mrs. PAINE. Two, I am certain. + +Mr. JENNER. Just two? And you wrapped the package yourself, did you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. When you and Michael undertook your discussion about +curtain rods, did you or did he open up this package? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it your present best recollection that as far as you +know, the package, as far as wrapping is concerned, is in the same +condition now as when you wrapped it initially? + +Mrs. PAINE. Certainly very similar. + +Senator COOPER. What was the answer? + +Mrs. PAINE. Certainly very similar. I don't recall making any change. + +Mr. JENNER. Is there a possibility that the package was unwrapped at +anytime? + +Mrs. PAINE. In connection with this inquiry of Michael's; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You think he might have but you don't know. + +Mrs. PAINE. Or I might have. I don't recall. I recall that it wasn't +something that interested me as much as the other things I had to get +done. + +Mr. JENNER. But the rods about which you have testified as far as you +know are on the shelf in your garage at your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether when the FBI discussed this subject +with you, if you can recall that, that you advised the FBI of these +particular curtain rods? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am not perfectly certain that they discussed it with me. + +Mr. JENNER. You just have no recollection of any interview with the FBI +on this particular subject? + +Mrs. PAINE. It seems to me they brought it up, but I don't recall the +content nor whether they went out. I certainly think I would remember +if I had gone out to the garage with an FBI representative. + +Mr. JENNER. But you do not? + +Mrs. PAINE. But I do not remember such an occasion. + +Mr. JENNER. Unless the members of the Commission have any further +questions with respect to the curtain rods, I will return to the +afternoon. + +Senator COOPER. I want to ask just two questions. Before the +assassination, did you know where the package with the curtain rods in +it was situated within the garage? + +Mrs. PAINE. I gave it no attention but yes, it is my impression that I +did go out to see if things were where I expected to find them. They +were wrapped in brown paper, the curtain rods and venetian blinds. And +found things there. I don't recall that I looked into the package. + +Mr. JENNER. You did find the package? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the size of the package in length and width if you +can remember at the time you wrapped it? + +Mrs. PAINE. I suppose about like this, not closed but just wrapping +paper folded over. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you hold your hands there please. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But by no means a neat package, just enough to keep +the dust off. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Thirty-two and a half inches. + +Senator COOPER. What was the width of the package? + +Mrs. PAINE. Like so. + +Senator COOPER. That you wrapped? + +Mrs. PAINE. Now I am not certain. I am really thinking now of the +package with the venetian blind. I don't recall exactly the package +with the rods, whether they were included in this other or whether they +warranted a package of their own. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The witness indicated a width of approximately 7-1/2 +inches. + +Senator COOPER. I will ask one other question. The ends of the rod +which are at right angles to the long surface, how long? What is their +approximate size? + +Mrs. PAINE. Two and a half inches to three inches. + +Senator COOPER. What? + +Mrs. PAINE. Two and a half to three inches. + +Senator COOPER. All right, go ahead. + +Mr. JENNER. Anyone entering your home from the outside walking up your +driveway and looking in the windows, would they see anybody sitting on +the sofa you have described? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you sit on the sofa to look at your television set? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you take the ground floor plan that is before you and +indicate---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Do you want me to draw in the sofa and the television set? + +Mr. JENNER. No; I just want you to put an "X" as to where the sofa is, +and put a double "X" as to where the television set is. Now the opening +that appears to the left of the double "X," is that a window or a door? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is the front door. + +Mr. JENNER. And is there any window in that wall, in the living room +wall. + +Mrs. PAINE. Practically the rest of the wall is window. + +Mr. JENNER. And on this drawing it appears as a solid wall? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. The fact is that is a picture window? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. It is just your printing filled in. It is +exactly like this. There it is. + +Mr. JENNER. Turning to Commission Exhibit 431, the picture window is +shown there, is it not? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now it would be possible, would it not, if someone walked +along the sidewalk and was intent on peering in to see if anyone is +there, to see somebody sitting at the sofa looking at the television +set? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. McCLOY. I am very anxious to hear your story before we leave. + +Senator COOPER. I can stay here while the details are filled in. + +Mr. JENNER. The police arrived and what occurred. + +Mrs. PAINE. I went to the door. They announced themselves as from both +the sheriff's office and the Dallas Police Office, showed me at least +one package or two. I was very surprised. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything? + +Mrs. PAINE. I said nothing. I think I just dropped my jaw. And the man +in front said by way of explanation "We have Lee Oswald in custody. He +is charged with shooting an officer." This is the first I had any idea +that Lee might be in trouble with the police or in any way involved +in the day's events. I asked them to come in. They said they wanted to +search the house. I asked if they had a warrant. They said they didn't. +They said they could get the sheriff out here right away with one if I +insisted. And I said no, that was all right, they could be my guests. + +They then did search the house. I directed them to the fact that most +of the Oswald's things were in storage in my garage and showed where +the garage was, and to the room where Marina and the baby had stayed +where they would find the other things which belonged to the Oswalds. +Marina and I went with two or three of these police officers to the +garage. + +Mr. JENNER. How many police officers were there? + +Mrs. PAINE. There were six altogether, and they were busy in various +parts of the house. The officer asked me in the garage did Lee Oswald +have any weapons or guns. I said no, and translated the question to +Marina, and she said yes; that she had seen a portion of it--had looked +into--she indicated the blanket roll on the floor. + +Mr. JENNER. Was the blanket roll on the floor at that time? + +Mrs. PAINE. She indicated the blanket roll on the floor very close +to where I was standing. As she told me about it I stepped onto the +blanket roll. + +Mr. JENNER. This might be helpful. You had shaped that up yesterday and +I will just put it on the floor. + +Mrs. PAINE. And she indicated to me that she had peered into this roll +and saw a portion of what she took to be a gun she knew her husband to +have, a rifle. And I then translated this to the officers that she knew +that her husband had a gun that he had stored in here. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you standing on the blanket when you advised---- + +Mrs. PAINE. When I translated. I then stepped off of it and the officer +picked it up in the middle and it bent so. + +Mr. JENNER. It hung limp just as it now hangs limp in your hand? + +Mrs. PAINE. And at this moment I felt this man was in very deep trouble +and may have done---- + +Mr. McCLOY. Were the strings still on it? + +Mrs. PAINE. The strings were still on it. It looked exactly as it had +at previous times I had seen it. It was at this point I say I made the +connection with the assassination, thinking that possibly, knowing +already that the shot had been made from the School Book Depository, +and that this was a rifle that was missing, I wondered if he would not +also be charged before the day was out with the assassination. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't say that. + +Mr. JENNER. When the officer picked up the blanket package, did you +hear any crinkling as though there was paper inside? + +Mrs. PAINE. No crinkling. + +Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever. When you stepped on the package, did you +have a feeling through your feet that there was something inside the +package in the way of paper. + +Mrs. PAINE. Not anything in the way of paper. + +Mr. JENNER. Or wrapping. + +Mrs. PAINE. Or anything that crinkled; no. I did think it was hard but +that was my cement floor. + +Mr. JENNER. But definitely you had no sensation of any paper inside? + +Mrs. PAINE. No such sensation. + +Mr. JENNER. Of the nature or character of the wrapping paper you +identified yesterday. + +Mrs. PAINE. No; and when he picked it up I would think such paper would +rattle, but there was no such sound. Marina said nothing at this time. +She was very white, and of course I judged---- + +Mr. JENNER. Did she blanch? + +Mrs. PAINE. She is not a person to immediately show her feelings +necessarily. She was white. I wouldn't say that it was a sudden thing. +I can't be certain that it was sudden at that point. + +Representative FORD. How close was she standing to it. + +Mrs. PAINE. From here to there, about 6 feet. + +Mr. JENNER. Proceed. + +Mrs. PAINE. The officers then said they would like me and Marina to go +down to the police station, and I said well, I would seek to try to +get a baby-sitter to come to stay with the children so that we might +accompany them. About this time, we then left the garage as I recall, +because then Michael Paine arrived at the front door. I was in the +living room when he came. And I said "Did you know to come" and he said +that he had heard Oswald's name mentioned on the radio, and had come +over directly, for which I may say I was very glad. + +Mr. JENNER. How far away from your home--where did he live? + +Mrs. PAINE. It would take about a half hour drive--he was working--from +where he was working to come, 20 minutes perhaps. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have the address at the tip of your tongue? + +Mrs. PAINE. Where he works; no. I don't know the address. I know how to +get to it. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know where he lived? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the address? + +Mrs. PAINE. He lived at the Villa Fontaine Apartments, apartment 217, +2377 Dalworth. + +Mr. JENNER. D-A-L-W-O-R-T-H? + +Mrs. PAINE. D-A-L-W-O-R-T-H, in Grand Prairie, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. Where is Grand Prairie, Tex. + +Mrs. PAINE. Grand Prairie is suburban to Dallas, between Dallas and +Fort Worth, nearer to Dallas, and it was a location very near to where +he worked. + +Mr. JENNER. What distance in miles from your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. You measure distance in minutes in Texas; driving time. I +don't know; 20 minutes to where he lived. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, proceed. + +Mrs. PAINE. The police officers then asked if Michael would also +accompany us to the police station and he said he would. I changed +clothes to a suit from slacks, and went to the house of my babysitter. +She has no telephone. I need to walk to her. + +Mr. JENNER. Where was Marina in the meantime? + +Mrs. PAINE. Marina remained in the house with the children. Lynn by +this time had awakened as I recall. Christopher was still sleeping and +I think June was also. And I said I would walk over to my neighbors to +ask if--there was something that intervened I just remembered. I first +went and asked my immediate neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, if she could keep +the children for a short time in the afternoon, but she was just on +her way to go somewhere. She couldn't. So then I went to the home of +the person I normally have for a baby-sitter. It was now after school +or this babysitter would not have been there, which brings us to 3:30 +perhaps. And I asked the mother if the young girl, teenage girl, could +come and stay at the house. I was accompanied to the house by one of +the officers. As we left the house I said "Oh, you don't have to go +with me." Oh, he said, he'd be glad to. And then it occurred to me +he had been assigned to go with me, and I said "come along." It was +the first I have ever experienced being in the company of people who +suspected me of anything, and of course that is their business. + +We did arrange then for the girls to come back, one or two, I forget +whether it was two of the daughters or one that came then to my house +to stay with the children. As I came back, I noticed the officers +carrying a number of things from the house, and I looked into the back +of one of the cars. It was across the street from my house, and saw +he had three cases of 78 records of mine, and I said, "You don't need +those and I want to use them on Thanksgiving weekend. I have promised +to lead a folk dance conference on the weekend. I will need those +records which are all folk dance records and I doubt that you might get +them back at that time." + +And I said, "that is a 16 mm projector. You don't want that. It is +mine." + +And he took me by the arm and he said, "We'd better get down to the +station. We have wasted too much time as it is." And I said, "I want a +list of what you are taking, please." Or perhaps that was before. As +much answer as I ever got was "We'd better get to the station." Then +I evidently had made them nervous because when we got back from this +car to the house, Marina wanted to change from slacks as I had already +done to a dress. They would not permit her to do that. I said "She +has a right to, she is a woman, to dress as she wishes before going +down." And I directed her to the bathroom to change. The officer opened +the bathroom door and said no, she had no time to change. I was still +making arrangements with the babysitters, arranging for our leaving the +children there, and one of the officers made a statement to the effect +of "we'd better get this straight in a hurry Mrs. Paine or we'll just +take the children down and leave them with juvenile while we talk to +you." + +And I said "Lynn, you may come too" in reply to this. I don't like +being threatened. And then Christopher was still sleeping so I left him +in the house and Lynn, my daughter, and Marina took her daughter and +her baby with her to the police station, so we were quite a group going +into town in the car. Michael was in one car, Marina and I and all the +children were in another with three police officers as I recall. One +of them spoke some Czech, tried to understand what was being said. The +one in the front seat turned to me and said "Are you a Communist," +and I said, "No, I am not, and I don't even feel the need of a Fifth +Amendment." And he was satisfied with that. We went on then to the +police station, and waited until such time as they could interview us. +They interviewed Michael at one point separately. + +Mr. JENNER. Separately? + +Mrs. PAINE. And they interviewed Marina while I was present. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you interpret for her? + +Mrs. PAINE. They had an interpreter there, a Mr. Ilya Mamantov whom I +was very glad to see. He is the son-in-law of a woman who has tutored +me in Dallas, so I had met him before. I was very glad to have someone +whose skill in Russian was greater than mine, and Marina had said even +in the car going down to the station, "your Russian has suddenly become +no good at all." She had asked me again in the car, "isn't it true that +the penalty for shooting someone in Texas is the electric chair" and I +said "yes, that is true." + +Then at the police station---- + +Representative FORD. May I ask this. Was there any interrogation other +than what you have mentioned by police officers in the car? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; none that I recall. + +Representative FORD. You and Marina talked back and forth freely or to +a limited degree? + +Mrs. PAINE. We talked back and forth freely and then she wanted me to +translate to the officer, to the one who understood some Czech, to help +him understand. Then in the room where we were asked questions, what +I particularly recall was they wanted Marina to say what she had said +in the garage to the effect that she had seen a rifle in that wrapped +blanket, and she made the statement again and it was made up into an +affidavit for her to sign with Mr. Mamantov making very clear the +translation of each sentence, each word, and I recall her statement was +to the effect that she had looked in and seen a portion of the gun, of +something which she took to be the gun she knew her husband had; that +she had not opened the package, but had just looked into it. + +They then brought in---- + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, a slight interruption. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was the occasion when Mrs. Oswald, Marina, made the remark +of having seen a weapon inside the blanket, was that the first notice +that you had of any kind or character that there was a weapon in your +garage? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is absolutely the first. Indeed it was contrary to +my expectation as I said. When the officer asked me I answered his +question before I even translated it, answered it in the negative, and +then translated it and found that indeed there had been a gun there. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead. + +Mrs. PAINE. They then showed a gun, a rifle to Marina, and asked her if +she could identify the gun as being her husband's. + +She said her husband had a dark gun, dark in color, that she wasn't +absolutely certain that this was the gun. She couldn't definitely +recall the sight on the top of it. + +Mr. JENNER. The telescope sight? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Then I also was asked to make an affidavit which I +signed, to the effect that I had heard her say in the garage that she +had looked into this package and seen what she took to be a rifle she +knew her husband had. It was after they had finished with this session +that I went back in the same room where Michael was, and Mrs. Oswald, +senior, came in, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you met her at anytime up to that moment? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. I had never met her before. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you ever talked with her at anytime up to that moment? + +Mrs. PAINE. I had never talked with her. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you advised in advance of anything that had been said +that she was to come? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. She said she had heard on her car radio, on her way to +work in the afternoon. + +Mr. JENNER. What time was this about? + +Mrs. PAINE. She heard it? + +Mr. JENNER. No; that she came? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was, it was certainly supper time. We had eaten no lunch. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mrs. PAINE. And she said she heard on her car radio that Lee Oswald +had been in custody in Dallas and had come over. Previously during +October and November Marina had told me she regretted that Lee didn't +wish to keep up contact with his mother because she thought it was only +proper to tell the mother of the coming grandchild, and then she wanted +to announce the birth when the baby had come but she said Lee didn't +try to keep her address, and Marina didn't know how to contact her or +didn't want to do so around her husband certainly. There was a warm +greeting in the police station. + +Mr. JENNER. Between whom? + +Mrs. PAINE. Between Marguerite Oswald and Marina Oswald and I recall +both wept and Mrs. Marguerite Oswald exclaimed over the new baby, and +then held the baby. I then also met Robert Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. When did he come with relation to when Marguerite Oswald +entered? + +Mrs. PAINE. It seemed to me later. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you met Robert Oswald at anytime up to that moment? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I had not. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion that had taken place during the +course of the day up to that moment indicating to you that Robert +Oswald might or would arrive on the scene? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing that day about Robert at all. + +Mr. JENNER. When he entered was there an indication to you at all that +none of the people, in addition to yourself, was aware that he was +about to--that they had any advance advice that he was going to be +present? + +Mrs. PAINE. There was no indication of any advance advice to any of the +people. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any indication to the contrary? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't think anyone was really surprised that he had come. + +Mr. JENNER. There was this lack of prior notice? + +Mrs. PAINE. Lack of prior notice. We then talked about where to go. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, does the "we" include your husband all the time? + +Mrs. PAINE. The "we" then was a group at this point of my husband, +Marguerite Oswald, Marina Oswald, Robert Oswald, and myself, three +children. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your husband know Robert Oswald prior to this time? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Were they introduced to each other on this occasion? + +Mrs. PAINE. They were in the same room and they might have been. It was +agreed that Robert was to stay in a hotel. Marguerite Oswald asked if +she could come out and stay with Marina at my home, and it was agreed. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it agreed that Marina would stay at your house that +night? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; certainly all her baby things were there. So, we went +back there. We were taken back by police officers. + +Mr. JENNER. Everybody assumed she would return back to your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion that would indicate any reluctance +on the part of anybody that she return to your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. None. + +Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever by anybody? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct, none whatsoever by anybody. + +The police officers brought us back to my home. It was by this time +dark, and I think it was about 9 o'clock in the evening. I asked +Michael to go out and buy hamburgers at a drive-in so we wouldn't have +to cook, and we ate these as best we could, and began to prepare to +retire. We talked. I have a few specific recollections of that period +that I will put in here. + +Just close to the time of retiring Marina told me that just the night +before Lee had said to her he hoped they could get an apartment +together again soon. As she said this, I felt she was hurt and +confused, wondering how he could have said such a thing which indicated +wanting to be together with her when he must have already been planning +something that would inevitably cause separation. I asked her did she +think that Lee had killed the President and she said, "I don't know." +And I felt that this was not something to talk about really anyway. But +my curiosity overcame my politeness. + +Now, back a little bit to the time in the living room, Mrs. Oswald and +Michael and Marina and I were all there, and Mrs. Oswald, I recall, +said, I mean of course Mrs. Marguerite Oswald---- + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. That if they were prominent people there would be three of +the lawyers down in the city jail now trying to defend her son, and +coming to his aid. + +She felt that since they were just small people that there +wouldn't--they wouldn't get the proper attention or care, and I tried +to say this was not a small case. That most careful attention would be +given it, but she didn't feel that way. + +Mr. JENNER. You made no impression on her? + +Mrs. PAINE. I made no impression on her. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it---- + +Mrs. PAINE. She made an impression on me. + +Mr. JENNER. I think we would prefer if you would call her Marguerite. +It would avoid confusion. + +Mrs. PAINE. All right. Somewhere in that evening before we retired, and +after we had eaten, the doorbell rang and two men from Life Magazine +appeared. I was---- + +Mr. JENNER. Had you had any advance notice? + +Mrs. PAINE. We had had no advance notice. + +Mr. JENNER. Nobody did? + +Mrs. PAINE. Nobody did. + +Mr. JENNER. You in particular and none of the others in the room? + +Mrs. PAINE. None of the others. + +Mr. JENNER. That was your impression? + +Mrs. PAINE. I would be quite certain that none of the others and +myself---- + +Mr. JENNER. At least that was your impression at the moment? + +Mrs. PAINE. That they had no prior information that these people +might come. I will say I was not surprised that anyone of the press +found his way to our door at that point. If anything, I was surprised +there weren't more. Life Magazine was the only company or group to +appear that evening. I permitted them to come in, and I felt that Mrs. +Marguerite Oswald was interested in the possibility of their buying the +story or paying for what information she and Marina might give them. + +Mr. JENNER. Had that occurred to you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Had that occurred to me? No. But then, too, I wasn't +thinking about pay for lawyers but she made that connection verbally in +my presence. + +Mr. JENNER. What connection? + +Mrs. PAINE. Between the need for money. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. The availability of Life Magazine and the need to pay for a +lawyer. + +Mr. JENNER. And she was the one who raised that subject? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she raised it. + +Mr. JENNER. For commercialization of the story? + +Mrs. PAINE. I recall now she raised it definitely enough that Mr. Tommy +Thompson of Life called, I believe still that evening, to see if he +could offer anything or what he might be empowered to offer. + +Mr. JENNER. That was all instigated by her? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; very much so. I noticed that the other man, whose +name I forget, had a camera and I was amazed, and I also saw he took a +picture and I was amazed, he tried with a dim light in the room. + +Mr. JENNER. When you say he took a picture, you don't mean he took a +picture from your living room? + +Mrs. PAINE. He took a picture in my living room. He photographed. I saw +him wind his roll. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you. + +Mrs. PAINE. I made the mistake I now think of turning on another light +simply as an act of hostess, it was dim in the living room but I hadn't +realized until later that I was making it possible for him to take a +picture. + +I didn't know what was best for me to do as hostess. It seemed to me +that Mrs. Oswald, Sr., Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, was both interested in +encouraging the Life Magazine representatives and still didn't really +want her picture taken, and I had no personal objection to their being +there. But I considered the Oswalds my guests and I didn't want to have +the Life Magazine people there if they didn't want them. But they left +fairly promptly, saying that they would come back in the morning. + +Mr. JENNER. Did they say anything about your talking or not talking to +any other news media representatives until they had talked with you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Not to me. + +Mr. JENNER. Nothing of that implied? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. It was after this that the conversation I have already +related with Marina took place, and we finished our preparations for +bed. She said to me she didn't think she would sleep fairly soon and +asked if she could borrow my hair dryer, she would stay up and take a +shower, which she often said renewed her spirits, and I then went to +bed, having given her my hair dryer. We woke perhaps something after 7 +the next morning or closer to 8. + +Mr. JENNER. When you say "we", who do you mean? + +Mrs. PAINE. The household. I think we had not yet--we pretty much woke +all at once. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your husband remain at your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he remained at my home that night, the first time he +had been there in a great long time. We were still eating breakfast +or had just begun when the two Life people arrived again, this time +with an interpreter, a woman doctor whose name I don't remember, and +Marguerite Oswald and Marina Oswald, with her two little girls went +with these two Life Magazine people to downtown Dallas for the purpose +of seeing Lee, and Marguerite Oswald wanted to see that he got legal +counsel immediately. + +They were acting, the Life people were acting in this case as shovers, +I feel, and I also thought Marguerite Oswald was hoping that something +could be arranged between them, that would be financially helpful. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything that further stimulated your thoughts +and reaction in that direction? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I don't recall specifically but I have the clear +impression that---- + +Mr. JENNER. From her conversation with the Life representatives? + +Mrs. PAINE. From her conversation. Yes. They left quite soon, I +remember wishing Marina had taken more time to have more breakfast +since it was going to be a trying day, and that is the last I saw her +until March 9, in the evening, very recently. + +Mr. JENNER. March 9, 1964? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Just a week or so ago? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. She left, of course, expecting to come back. +She took only the immediate needs of the baby's diapers and bottle, +and I fully expected her to come back later that same day. I don't +really recall. I think there must have been some newsmen out then that +morning, later that morning. + +Mr. JENNER. To see you, at your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. At my home. I would be certain of that. The Houston +Post--well, yes. And Michael was there also, at least in the morning as +I recall, and talked with these people. + +I believe the local paper, Irving News, was there. Then Michael, as +I recall, went to do something related to his work or had to do some +shopping. + +Mr. JENNER. He left your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Anyway, in the afternoon I was the only one there and I +felt I had better get some grocery shopping done so as to be prepared +for a long stay home just answering the doorbell and telling what I +could to the people who wanted to know. I was just preparing to go to +the grocery store when several officers arrived again from the Dallas +Police Office and asked if they could search. + +This time I was in the yard, the front yard on the grass, and asked if +they could search and held up their warrant and I said, yes, they could +search. They said they were looking for something specific and I said, +"I want to go to the grocery store, I'll just go and you go ahead and +do your searching." + +I then went to the grocery store and when I came back they had finished +and left, locking my door which necessitated my getting out my key, I +don't normally lock my door when I go shopping. + +Representative FORD. Did you take your children shopping? + +Mrs. PAINE. Always. Then about 3:30 or 4 I got a telephone call. + +Mr. JENNER. The phone rang? + +Mrs. PAINE. The phone rang; I answered it. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you recognize the voice? + +Mrs. PAINE. I recognized the voice but I don't recall what he said? + +Mr. JENNER. What did the voice say? + +Mrs. PAINE. The voice said: "This is Lee." + +Mr. JENNER. Give your best recollection of everything you said and if +you can, please, everything he said, and exactly what you said. + +Mrs. PAINE. I said, "Well, Hi." And he said he wanted to ask me to call +Mr. John Abt in New York for him after 6 p.m. He gave me a telephone +number of an office in New York and a residence in New York. + +Mr. JENNER. Two telephone numbers he gave you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. One office and one residence of Mr. John Abt. Did he say +who Mr. John Abt was? + +Mrs. PAINE. He said he was an attorney he wanted to have. + +Mr. JENNER. Represent him? + +Mrs. PAINE. To represent him. He thanked me for my concern. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he tell you or ask you what you were to do or say to +Mr. Abt if you reached him? + +Mrs. PAINE. I carried the clear impression I was to ask him if he would +serve as attorney for Lee Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Have you given the substance of the conversation in as much detail, of +the entire conversation, as you now can recall? + +Mrs. PAINE. There is a little more that is---- + +Senator COOPER. Why don't you just go ahead and tell it as you remember +it, everything that he said and you said? + +Mrs. PAINE. I can't give the specific words to this part but I carry a +clear impression, too, that he sounded to me almost as if nothing out +of the ordinary had happened. + +I would make this telephone call for him, would help him, as I had in +other ways previously. He was, he expressed gratitude to me. I felt, +but did not express, considerable irritation at his seeming to be so +apart from the situation, so presuming of his own innocence, if you +will, but I did say I would make the call for him. + +Then he called back almost immediately. I gather that he had made the +call to me on the permission to make a different call and then he got +specific permission from the police to make a call to me and the call +was identical. + +Mr. JENNER. This is speculation? + +Mrs. PAINE. This is speculation but the content of the second call was +almost identical. + +Mr. JENNER. The phone rang? + +Mrs. PAINE. He asked me to contact John Abt. + +Mr. JENNER. He identified himself and he asked you to make the call? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What did he say? + +Mrs. PAINE. He wanted me to call this lawyer. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you express any surprise for him to call back almost +immediately giving you the same message that he had given previously? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think somebody must have said, that the officers had said +he could call, make this call. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything about the fact that he had already +just called you about the same subject matter? + +Mrs. PAINE. He may have added. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you, please? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. I was quite stunned that he called at all or that he +thought he could ask anything of me, appalled, really. + +Mr. McCLOY. Did he say he was innocent, or did he just have this +conversation with respect to the retention of a counsel? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is all. + +Mr. JENNER. At no time during either of those conversations did he deny +that he was in any way involved in this situation? + +Mrs. PAINE. He made no reference to why he was at the police station or +why he needed a lawyer. + +Mr. JENNER. He just assumed that you knew he was at the police station, +did he? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. That was your impression? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. He didn't say where he was? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. He just started out saying what you now say he said? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. But in no respect did he say to you that he was entirely +innocent of any charges that had been made against him? + +Mrs. PAINE. He did not say that. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he mention the subject at all of the assassination of +the President or the slaying of Officer Tippit? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not. + +Mr. JENNER. What you have given is your best recollection of the entire +conversation? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Representative FORD. This was Saturday afternoon, November 23? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Representative FORD. About what time? + +Mrs. PAINE. Four, perhaps in the afternoon. + +Representative FORD. Had you seen him the day before? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. McCLOY. Who was in the house with you when that call came in? + +Mrs. PAINE. Just my children. + +Mr. McCLOY. Just your children. + +Representative FORD. While you were shopping and after the officers had +come with a warrant, they went in the house, no one was in the house? + +Mrs. PAINE. For a portion of the time they were looking, no one was in +the house. + +Representative FORD. They were there alone? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. McCLOY. Did they indicate--were they still there when you got back? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; they were not. Remember the door was locked. + +Mr. McCLOY. Yes; the door was locked, that is what I gather. Do you +know what they took on this occasion, or did they tell you what they +were coming for? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I do not. Before I left they were leafing through books +to see if anything fell out but that is all I saw. + +Mr. McCLOY. All right. + +Mrs. PAINE. In this interim then, I suppose I talked to some more news +people but I want to get to the next important point which was that Lee +called again. + +Mr. JENNER. A third time? + +Mrs. PAINE. I really call the first two one, but it was twice dialed. + +Mr. JENNER. Fix the time, please. + +Mrs. PAINE. It was around 9:30 in the evening. + +Mr. JENNER. Who was home? Was your husband there on that occasion? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Was anyone else other than your children and yourself in +your home at the time of the receipt of the call in the evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. It could only have been Michael. I would remember someone +else. + +Mr. JENNER. But you have no definite recollection that even he was +present? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. The phone rang, you answered it. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you recognize the voice? + +Mrs. PAINE. I recognized the voice. + +Mr. JENNER. Whose was it? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was Lee Oswald's. + +Mr. JENNER. What did he say and what did you say? + +Mrs. PAINE. He said, "Marina, please," in Russian. + +Mr. JENNER. Please, Mrs. Paine, did he speak to you in English in the +conversations in the afternoon or in Russian? + +Mrs. PAINE. He spoke in English the entire conversation. + +Mr. JENNER. The two in the afternoon? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, however, he resorted to Russian, did he? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. He planned to speak to Marina. + +Mr. JENNER. I beg your pardon? + +Mrs. PAINE. He planned to speak to Marina, and this opening phrase was +one he normally used calling as he had many previous times to speak to +her. + +Mr. JENNER. He was under the assumption, you gathered, that Marina was +in your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. He certainly was. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mrs. PAINE. And I would be fairly certain that I answered him in +English. I said she was not there, that I had a notion about where she +might be, but I wasn't at all certain. That I would try to find out. He +said, he wanted me to--he said he thought she should be at my house. He +felt irritated at not having been able to reach her. And he wanted me +to---- + +Mr. JENNER. Did he sound irritated? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he sounded just a slight edge to his voice. And he +wanted me to deliver a message to her that he thought she should be at +my house. + +Mr. JENNER. And he so instructed you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. That is what he said? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. That was so far as I remember, the entire conversation. + +Mr. JENNER. What response did you give to his direction? + +Mrs. PAINE. I said I would try to reach her. + +Mr. JENNER. His direction---- + +Mrs. PAINE. And tell her his message. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mrs. Paine, in the meantime, had you sought to reach John Abt? + +Mrs. PAINE. I had, after 6 o'clock, thank you. I had dialed both +numbers and neither answered. + +Mr. JENNER. Neither answered. Was there any conversation between you +and Lee Oswald in the evening conversation to which you reported to him +your inability to reach Mr. Abt? + +Mrs. PAINE. I do not specifically recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Or the subject of Mr. Abt at all? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't want to get into rationalization. I can judge that +something was said but I do not recall it specifically. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, have you given the full extent of that conversation? + +Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. At anytime during that conversation with Lee Harvey Oswald +did he assert or intimate in any form or fashion his innocence of any +charges against him? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Was the assassination mentioned at all? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; it was not. + +Mr. JENNER. Was the shooting or murder of Officer Tippit mentioned? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You have given everything that was said in that +conversation as best you are able to recall it at the moment? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. I then tried the only thing I knew to do, to +try to reach Marina. I had heard one of the FBI agents try to find her +when he was at my home, had dialed the hotel where the Life people were +staying, and asked to be put in contact with Marina and was told, I +judge, because he repeated it and wrote it down. Executive Inn. Here I +am turning detective in this small way. + +Mr. JENNER. You also mentioned now for the first time there were FBI +agents in your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. That day. + +Mr. JENNER. During the course of the day? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I then dialed---- + +Mr. JENNER. You shook your head, did you shake your head in the +affirmative? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there were FBI agents in my home during the day. One +I recalled made this telephone call. I was waiting to hear from Marina +to see if she wanted to talk with me. I had no desire to press her or +to attempt to reach her unless she wanted to reach me, but then with +this message, I went ahead and dialed the Executive Inn and asked for +Tommy Thompson, and Marguerite Oswald answered, and I said I would like +to talk to Marina, and she said, "Well, Marina is in the bathroom," +and I said to Marguerite that Lee had called me, that he wanted me to +deliver a message to Marina, that he wished for her to be at my home, +and Marguerite Oswald said, "Well, he is in prison, he don't know the +things we are up against, the things we have to face. What he wants +doesn't really matter," which surprised me. And again I asked to speak +to Marina and waited until I did speak to her and delivered the same +message in Russian to her but there was no further---- + +Mr. JENNER. What response did Marina make to the message that you +conveyed to her? + +Mrs. PAINE. She said she was very tired and wanted to get to bed, as I +recall, and thought it was certainly best to stay there that night. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that your best recollection? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And I certainly agreed with her. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything in response to your delivery of Lee +Oswald's message about Marina staying with you, of the possibility of +her staying with you, say, the next day? + +Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of that nature was said. I think I remember that +we did discuss whether she had seen Lee during the day, and on that +occasion it seems to me I learned that she had seen him around noon +but I may be wrong about when I learned that. I knew she had seen him. + +Mr. JENNER. Either in that conversation or any other conversation with +Marina that you may have had, was the subject of Lee Oswald's attitude +or any comments he made mentioned? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Nobody reported to you anything about any conversation they +might or did have with Lee Oswald either on the 22d or 23d or even on +the 24th of November 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. I am of the impression I again tried the home telephone +of John Abt on Sunday morning, but I am not certain, and there was no +answer. That I certainly remember. + +Mr. McCLOY. Did you ever reach Abt? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever attempt to report to Lee Oswald that you had +been unable to reach Mr. Abt? + +Mrs. PAINE. Not unless such transpired in our 9:30 conversation +Saturday evening, but I made no effort to call the police station +itself. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me? + +Mrs. PAINE. I made no effort to call the police station. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have at anytime any further conversations with Lee +Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Other than what you have now related? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. McCLOY. Did you have any impression as to why he wanted Marina to +come back with you? Was it in order to make her available for telephone +calls from him or what? + +Mrs. PAINE. What is distinctly my impression is that he thought she +should be available. That it was she wasn't where he could find her +that irritated him rather than that he thought this was the best place +for her. + +Representative FORD. Did you know of Mr. Abt or was this just---- + +Mrs. PAINE. I had never heard of Mr. Abt before. + +Representative FORD. Never heard of him? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Senator COOPER. Did Marguerite Oswald explain any further, in the +statement you said she made, about having too many obstacles or having +obstacles or having troubles? + +Mrs. PAINE. Are you referring to the statement on Friday night when she +was at my home? + +Senator COOPER. No. I think you said a few minutes ago when she went to +the hotel you called her and told her what Lee Oswald had told you to +tell Marina. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Senator COOPER. I think you said she said something about---- + +Mrs. PAINE. "Well, he doesn't understand the things we are up against +or things of this nature." What I remember most clearly is that she +didn't seem to care whether he was told the truth or not. + +Mr. JENNER. What? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, that is perhaps a further statement, told the truth +about--had it seemed to me a lack of respect on her part. She didn't +care what his wishes were in the situation, in other words. And this +sticks in my mind. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any conversation with Robert Oswald on the +22d, subsequent to the time that you met him when he first come to the +police station? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you on the 23d of November? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. The 24th? + +Mrs. PAINE. I believe the only other time I saw Robert was some 3 weeks +or more later when he came with two other people to pick up the rest of +Marina's things. + +Mr. JENNER. Then from the 22d of November until he came sometime in +December you had no conversation with him and you had not seen him? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. You had no contact at all with him? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection. Marina called me around noon +on Sunday, the 24th. She said she was with the police, and, of course, +this was said in Russian; I don't know whether she meant Secret Service +or Irving Police or Dallas Police or what sort, but official. Her +husband had already been shot at this time, so it was just after. He +had been shot and I had the television on and I knew that. + +Representative FORD. Did she know it? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am certain she did. What makes me certain I can't recall +definitely. I felt that she was confining herself in her conversation +to the things she just had to say. + +Senator COOPER. What did she say? + +Mrs. PAINE. She was directing me how to find certain things she needed +to have. A winter coat, things for the baby, a little purse with some +money in it that she left either on top of the dresser or in a drawer +in the bedroom where they had stayed. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she sound less than cordial---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no, she sounded, as I recall it, as a call from a woman +who was doing her best to simply achieve the things she had to do but +was under a tremendous strain. + +Mr. JENNER. Was any mention made of the death of her husband? + +Mrs. PAINE. He was not yet dead, he had been shot but he was not yet +dead. + +Mr. JENNER. Was any mention made between you in this conversation of +the fact that Lee Oswald had been shot? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall such. + +Mr. JENNER. You didn't mention it? + +Mrs. PAINE. I did not tell her; no. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you--it might be natural that you would express +sympathy. Did you mention the subject at all, sympathetical or +otherwise? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall mentioning the subject and as I say, I have +this distinct feeling that she knew, and I knew she knew but what +caused that, I can't identify. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling, if I may use some vernacular, +that she was "under wraps" or rather she was bereft and just seeking to +do---- + +Mrs. PAINE. I had no feeling she was restraining herself from saying +any particular things. + +Mr. JENNER. Was under restraint? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. From some outside source? + +Mrs. PAINE. I had no such feeling. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mrs. PAINE. I then, well, I should say there were one or two officers +from the Irving Police Department there who were waiting to take the +things that she directed---- + +Mr. JENNER. The police officers had already arrived at your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I guess I remembered it as virtually simultaneous. +I might fill in, whether it is important to your inquiry or not, +the moment the television announced that Lee Oswald had been shot, +an Irving Police patrol car that had been going by my house and had +hesitated in front, stopped and the officer got out carrying a rifle +and came into my house, closed the curtains and said he was here to +protect me. I later learned that he thought Mrs. Oswald, Marina Oswald, +was in the house, and he had been directed by his car radio to come in, +and he then closed all the blinds and peered out. And it was in the +midst of this time that Marina called, so you see the officers were +there already on other business. + +Mr. JENNER. The officer was in your home when you talked with Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; when Marina made the call. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything to the officers that Marina had called +when you finished that conversation? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You told them? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you tell them anything of the substance of the call? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that I was to get some things and I think they had +the same information separately a different way from a car radio or +something at the same time, which was to put some things together to +take to her. I did then pack one or two, or even three of the suit +cases we talked about yesterday with baby things. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine. You keep referring to one or two or +three. Were there as many as three? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think there were as many as three, including a very +small, you might say, cosmetic case, only more, not as fancy as that. +This was in her room, and I recall looking in it and seeing a family +album of photographs and thinking this had better be in her hands, and +included that along with clothes. I sent a childs toy, some things that +I thought might be helpful to her in keeping her children happy as well +as the individual items she had asked for specifically. + +Mr. McCLOY. Did you sense any note of estrangement at all between you +and Marina when she telephoned you? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; the situation was strained. + +Mr. McCLOY. Strained because she hadn't reappeared, you mean? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; because her husband had been shot. + +Mr. McCLOY. No; I meant in your conversation with her was there any +indication of any coolness between you? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; none I detected. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you noticed any when you were in the police station? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no. + +Mr. JENNER. On the previous day? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no. + +Mr. JENNER. None at all. So that up to the moment of this telephone +conversation and after you finished you had no feeling there was any +estrangement, any coolness, any change in attitude on the part of +Marina toward you as a person? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. McCLOY. Have you felt any evidence of that since? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and that has several parts to it and I could easily go +into it now. + +Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask her some general questions and Senator +Cooper asked me if I would permit her just to go through the day as she +has without, with a minimum of, interruptions so that you and he might, +and Representative Ford, might ask some general questions before you +left, so that is what I have done. + +Mr. McCLOY. Have you completed your report? + +Mrs. PAINE. That brings us to the 24th so that all else is really quite +post the assassination. + +Mr. McCLOY. There is one thing I would like to ask before I go, if I +may, and that is your husband testified that several times he had moved +this blanket when it was in the garage. Can you fix the date when he +was in your house and working in the garage so that he was compelled to +move the blanket? When did he come to---- + +Mrs. PAINE. He normally came on Friday evening. He would sometimes come +on a Sunday afternoon, and either of those times could have been times +that he had worked in the garage. + +Mr. McCLOY. That was all through September, October? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; September, October; yes. + +Mr. McCLOY. But when he had been working there he never mentioned to +you any--about the existence of this blanket, package which he had been +compelled to move? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. That didn't come up until after the assassination. + +Mr. McCLOY. It didn't come up until after the assassination. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, you are seeking to refresh your recollection +from what document, please? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am looking at a calendar to see if there is anyway that I +can tell when Michael was in the house. + +Mr. JENNER. That is Commission exhibit number what? + +Mrs. PAINE. 401. But it has not helped me in refreshing my memory. + +Mr. McCLOY. Did you have contacts with the FBI and if so what were they +before the assassination? + +Mrs. PAINE. An FBI agent was out, I have learned since, on November 1. +I made no note of the day for myself. Sat down and talked in a relaxed +way and for sometime in my living room. He said that the FBI liked +to make it plain to people who have been in this country sometime, +immigrated from an iron curtain country if they were experiencing any +blackmail pressure from their home country, that they were welcome, and +invited to discuss it with the FBI if they so choose. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Marina was present? + +Mrs. PAINE. Marina was present. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she overhear? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am not certain--I tried to translate some of this +conversation, I am not certain how good my translation was or how well +I conveyed it, or even if I conveyed it to her. + +Mr. JENNER. But you do recall translating some of the conversation to +her? + +Mrs. PAINE. I do recall translating some of the conversation indeed. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you at times asked to address Marina to convey +something that the FBI agent asked you to convey to her and then to +translate in the reverse to him? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall anything as formal as that; no. The agent +and I conversed some in English. He said, for instance, that, well he +was interested in knowing if Lee Oswald lived here. I told him he did +not, that he had a room in town; he asked if I knew where the room was +and I said I did not. He asked if he was working and I said yes, and +that he was working at the Texas School Book Depository. I haven't gone +over any of this yet, it must have been in conversation with you. + +Mr. JENNER. You testified to this yesterday afternoon? + +Mrs. PAINE. I thought I did. It sounds familiar. + +Mr. McCLOY. I just wanted to fix for my own benefit the number of times +you saw FBI agents prior to the assassination in the company of Marina. + +Mr. JENNER. There was a succeeding date? + +Mrs. PAINE. There was a succeeding date which again I have been told by +the FBI was November 5, the first time. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall it was a few days after the first man came? + +Mrs. PAINE. I recall---- + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall it was in your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. I recall it was in the early part of the week. + +Mr. JENNER. Did the same gentleman call? + +Mrs. PAINE. The same gentleman. He had someone else along. + +Mr. JENNER. That was Mr. Hosty, the gentleman whom you now have in mind? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I now know his name as Hosty. + +Mr. McCLOY. From that you knew that the FBI was still interested in the +activity of Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, indeed. + +Mr. McCLOY. That is what I want to bring out. I think that is all I +have, the questions I have. + +Are you going to take up later this estrangement as to how it developed? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; I shall do that this afternoon. Representative Ford +has afforded me a list of subjects upon which to make inquiry and I +will do so this afternoon. Perhaps Representative Ford and Senator +Cooper, you would have some questions of this lady before we adjourn +for the luncheon period? + +Senator COOPER. Are you going to continue this afternoon? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Senator COOPER. I will postpone mine until this afternoon. I think Mr. +McCloy and Congressman Ford have to go. + +Representative FORD. Mr. Jenner, I will give you these questions +and use those, if any, that are other than what you planned to use +yourself. I am a little interested and I would like to hear you tell +it, if I could, Mrs. Paine, how much did you know about the finances of +Lee and Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. It seemed to me they lived on a very small budget. In +March of the year, at either the first or second visit with her, she +told me she lived on something under, around $200 a month and this was +more than they had been, because they had just finished paying a debt +that they had incurred for their passage to this country and they were +feeling rich on $200 a month, and I could see she was a good planner +in what she bought. I could see they seldom, if ever, bought clothes +for themselves or even for June. In the fall then Lee never volunteered +or gave any money for the cost of her being at my house. He did on +one occasion buy a few things at the grocery store for, at Marina's +request, which he paid for, and on another occasion I was aware that he +had given her some money to buy shoes. Did I mention this previously? + +Representative FORD. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Yesterday afternoon you did; yes. + +Representative FORD. But even after he gained employment at the Texas +School Book Depository and was being paid he never gave her any money +for her to contribute to you? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not. + +Representative FORD. Did Marina ever express any concern about this? + +Mrs. PAINE. Periodically she expressed her embarrassment at having to +receive always from me. I tried to convince her how useful and helpful +it was to me to have her conversation, but I never felt I had convinced +her of that. I would have to say I am guessing that she hoped Lee would +contribute. It would have been like her to think that he should. + +Mr. JENNER. You gather that from the fact that she did raise the +subject occasionally? + +Mrs. PAINE. Just from the fact that she raised her embarrassment? Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Representative FORD. I think that is all now. Mr. Jenner, you can use +those to supplement or as you see fit during the interrogation this +afternoon. Thank you. + +Mr. McCLOY. I have no more questions. + +I would like to say this though, perhaps, Mrs. Paine, that you +understand we are not trying to punish anybody here. We are not---- + +Mrs. PAINE. I do understand. + +Mr. McCLOY. This is not a court of law. We are trying to get at the +facts. Anything that you can contribute before you complete your +testimony which would help us to get the facts we would like to +receive, whether it be in the form of hunches or anything that you +have, and you must not, I suggest that you don't, assume that merely +because we haven't examined you on a particular fact that if there is +anything that you do have in mind that you advance it and volunteer it +for the benefit of the further security of the country. + +Mrs. PAINE. I have tried very hard to think of the things that I +thought would be useful to you, especially as we had so little time in +advance of testifying to help me recall in thinking about it. + +Mr. JENNER. May I say, Mr. McCloy, that Mrs. Paine yesterday and +the day before, when I had an opportunity to talk with her, she did +volunteer several matters of which we had no notice whatsoever. For +example, the telephone calls by Lee Harvey Oswald to her, we had not +known of that. And the existence of the curtain rods. + +Mr. McCLOY. Anything that is in the background that you have---- + +Mrs. PAINE. I did want to amend my testimony of yesterday in one small +particular. I spoke, indeed, during the testimony I recalled this +incident of Lee having gotten into my car, started it, and did the +driving from my home to the parking lot where we practiced, pretty much +over my objection in a sense but I did not object strongly enough. I +said this was about three blocks. That would appear that it was walking +distance. It was longer than that. + +If you have someone out there in time, why I could go with the person +to show just exactly what the distance was. + +Representative FORD. What was his reaction when you objected? First, +was your objection just oral, was it strong, was it admonition, of what +kind? + +Mrs. PAINE. I felt that, and this is what you are getting at too and I +think something we haven't yet discussed, is the matter of what kind +of person this was or how I reacted to the kind of person he was. He +seemed to me prickly, all sharp points and edgy, and I wished he could +be more relaxed and more at ease. I didn't want to confront him with +a statement of, "Lee, I didn't want you to start this car and take it +yourself", so I simply said, "my father is an insurance man and he +certainly would not want me to be permitting you to drive in the street +when you don't even have a learner's permit yet, and I will certainly +drive it home." + +From the time I had first known him he had changed in his attitude +toward me, I felt. I felt in the spring he expected to be disliked, +that he carried a shell of proud disdain around him to protect himself +from human contact, and this was falling away from him at my home. + +Mr. JENNER. In the fall you mean? + +Mrs. PAINE. In the fall of the year, in October and November. He began +to appear much more at ease, and as if he had some confidence in how he +would be treated. It is a whole subject really. + +Representative FORD. Can you give us a little more information on what +you said to him and what he, or how he responded in this incident +involving the car? + +Mrs. PAINE. I would say he clearly wanted to do the driving and to +drive in the street. I felt that this, my not permitting him to, was +one of the things that was helping to get him to the office where he +could get a learner's permit, and he was eager to be driving, and to +learn to drive on the street. + +Representative FORD. Did he just slough off, so to speak, your +admonition that he shouldn't drive? + +Mrs. PAINE. I didn't make it a requirement that he stop right there so +he didn't have to stop. + +Representative FORD. You just suggested it might be better? + +Mrs. PAINE. I just made it clear I was uncomfortable and on the way +home I would drive. + +Mr. McCLOY. There is one thing we haven't had testimony about, I +imagine, except implicitly. + +It is alleged that Lee possessed a .38 caliber revolver. Do you, in the +light of hindsight, perhaps, do you have any feeling now that he was +secreting that weapon on your premises? + +Mrs. PAINE. I had no idea that it was there or ever was there. + +Mr. McCLOY. Nothing now makes you feel that it was there other than the +finding of the rifle? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Representative FORD. Thank you very much, Mrs. Paine. + +Senator COOPER. The Commission will recess until 2 o'clock today. + +(Whereupon, at 12:20 p.m., the Commission recessed.) + + + + +Afternoon Session + +TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED + + +The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m. + +The CHAIRMAN. We will start now. We will continue until Senator Cooper +comes and then he will preside the rest of the afternoon. I will be +busy with Mr. Rankin some of the time. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice. + +Mrs. Paine, this morning I was seeking to qualify and introduce in +evidence Commission Exhibit 425, which, at the time I had it in my +hand, consisted of one page. You called my attention to the fact that +it was a letter dated October 14, 1963, to your mother by you in your +handwriting, but that you had only given me the first page or sheet, +which consists front and reverse of two pages. Then you tendered me the +second page or sheet, and indicated some reluctance about the need for +its use in this connection. + +During the noon recess you have afforded me the possession of the +second page, and my recollection is you have voiced no objection to its +introduction in evidence. + +Mrs. PAINE. I have no objection to its introduction. It refers just to +personal matters, but if you don't have it, you will have to wonder +what it is. It is better not to wonder. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. And it does give the full context of the really +pertinent statements that you made in the first two pages and to which +you made allusion yesterday in your testimony. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. I direct your attention to the second sheet, the first of +which is numbered three and the reverse side numbered four. + +Is the handwriting on both of those sheets yours? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes it is. + +Mr. JENNER. And it is the third and fourth pages of the letter to which +you referred yesterday and again this morning, Commission Exhibit No. +425? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is. + +Mr. JENNER. And that page is in the same condition now as when--that is +pages three and four, as when--you dispatched the entire letter to your +mother? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chief Justice, I offer Commission Exhibit No. 425 in +evidence. It has been heretofore marked. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(Commission Exhibit No. 425 was marked and received in evidence.) + +Mr. JENNER. There have been marked as Commission's exhibits in this +series 451 and 453 to 456, a series of five colored photographs +purporting to be photographs of one Curtis La Verne Crafard, taken on +the 28th day of November 1963. Mrs. Paine would you be good enough to +look at each of those, and after you have looked at them, I wish to ask +you a question. + +Mrs. PAINE. I have looked at them all. + +Mr. JENNER. Calling on your recollection of the physiognomy and +appearance of Lee Oswald, do you detect a resemblance between the man +depicted in those photographs, the exhibit numbers of which I have +given, and Lee Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. To the best of your present recollection, do you recall +whether you have ever seen the person whose features are reflected on +those photographs? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I have not seen him. + +The CHAIRMAN. May I see those, please? + +Mrs. PAINE. Should I say that one picture in particular struck me as +looking similar to Lee? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. When the Chief Justice has concluded his examination I +will have you pick out that one in particular. Thank you, sir. When you +select it will you give the exhibit number which appears on the reverse +side? + +Mrs. PAINE. Exhibit No. 453. Clearly the shoulders are broader than +with Lee, but it is a quality about the face that recalls Oswald to my +mind. + +Mr. JENNER. And the jacket? + +Mrs. PAINE. And the attire. + +Mr. JENNER. The attire that is shown on the exhibit which is the first +one you have before you, what is the number of that? + +Mrs. PAINE. Exhibit 451. + +Mr. JENNER. I asked you to describe Lee Oswald, his general attire. Did +he normally wear a zipper jacket of the character shown on that exhibit? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And referring to the other photographs, you say that man's +attire is similar to that Lee Oswald normally effected and employed. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. It certainly is. + +Mr. JENNER. I offer Commission Exhibits Nos. 451 and 453 through 456. + +The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted. + +(Commission Exhibits Nos. 451 and 453 through 456 were received in +evidence.) + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, the Commissioners this morning, had especially +directed questions to you evidencing their interest in FBI interviews. + +The CHAIRMAN. Senator, will you now continue to preside please, so I +will be free to work with Mr. Rankin a little this afternoon. I will +remain here though for a while. + +Senator COOPER. Thank you. + +Mr. JENNER. I gather the first interview by any FBI agent to your +knowledge was on the first day of November 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and I don't really think interview is a fully accurate +word. + +Mr. JENNER. What word would you like to use? + +Mrs. PAINE. I felt that the agent stopped to see whether the Oswalds, +either Mrs. Oswald or Mr., were living there, and to make the +acquaintance of me. He said that he had talked with my immediate +neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, the previous time. + +Mr. JENNER. The pronoun you are using refers to the FBI agent. + +Mrs. PAINE. He, the FBI agent. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. Said that he had inquired of my next door neighbor, Mrs. +Roberts, whether the Oswalds lived here, and she had said that she +didn't know the last name but knew that the wife of the family was +living there, and that there had just been a baby girl born, and that +the husband came out some week ends. + +Mr. JENNER. Is this what the agent told you? + +Mrs. PAINE. No, the neighbor told me. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. All right. + +Mrs. PAINE. And I judged he wanted to find out directly. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you finished? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you subsequently learned the name of the gentleman who +interviewed you or conversed with you? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have subsequently learned his name, yes. It was James +Hosty. + +The CHAIRMAN. What was the name? + +Mrs. PAINE. James Hosty, H-O-S-T-Y. + +Mr. JENNER. I don't wish you to give that full interview again because +you touched on it yesterday and again at greater length this morning. +But I do wish to ask you with respect to that interview, did you give +Agent Hosty the telephone numbers that you had received from Lee Oswald +as to where he might be reached in Dallas? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't. He asked me if I knew where Lee lived. I did +think of these phone numbers, but---- + +Mr. JENNER. During the course of the---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Or later. + +Mr. JENNER. Of the interview? + +Mrs. PAINE. At least between that time and the time he came again, but +I have been impressed with what I have now concluded was a mistaken +impression I have which effected my behavior; namely, that the FBI +was in possession of a great deal of information, or so I thought, +and certainly would find it very easy to find out where Lee Oswald +was living. I really didn't believe they didn't know or needed to +find out from me. This is a feeling stemming from my understanding of +the difficulties they faced working in a free society. I would behave +quite differently now, but I have learned a lot from this particular +experience. + +Mr. JENNER. Now was there a subsequent interview? + +Mrs. PAINE. There was an interview a few days later, yes, interview to +the extent that he came to the door, walked in the door. We didn't as +much as sit down. But he asked again about an address. I had none. I +did say that I expected---- + +Mr. JENNER. An address as to where Lee resided? + +Mrs. PAINE. In town where he resided. I did say that I expected that +when Marina moved into an apartment with Lee again, as we all thought +would occur, that I would be in contact with her, and that I would be +perfectly willing to give him information as to that address when I had +such, but that my contact was with her and therefore through that way I +would have the address. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you again interviewed by telephone or otherwise by any +FBI agent prior to November 22, 1963. + +Mrs. PAINE. I have mentioned two times. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. And that was all. + +Mr. JENNER. That was all. So up to the time of the assassination, the +only interviews with the FBI to your knowledge were on the first? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. You will recall your testimony yesterday, Mrs. Paine, of +the incident in which a telephone call was made by you at the request +of Marina using the telephone number that has been left with you by +Lee Oswald, and your inability to locate him, in fact the person who +answered the telephone stated that there was no Lee Oswald living +there. Do you recall your testimony on that score? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you report that to the FBI? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. You also recall your testimony with respect to the draft of +the proposed letter which I think is before you, and that is Commission +exhibit number? + +Mrs. PAINE. 130. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you call the FBI and advise them of that incident? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. And without seeking to have you repeat your testimony, were +your reasons for not doing so the same as the one that you gave when I +asked you whether you had given Agent Hosty the telephone number? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; not identical. Certainly I didn't think that they had +any information of such a letter, whereas I did think they knew where +he lived or could easily find out, and of course they could also come +to the house and see him at my house as he came on weekends. + +Mr. JENNER. You did say to the FBI? + +Mrs. PAINE. I did. + +Mr. JENNER. That he would be at your home on weekends. + +Mrs. PAINE. And I judged by the fact they didn't come that this was +not someone they were terribly worried about talking to immediately. +Both this letter, and the telephone conversation really, the one that +followed it, where Marina reported to me that he was using a different +name, were something new and different in the situation that made me +feel this was a man I hadn't accurately perceived before. + +I have said my impression in reading the letter was--I have said +something similar to this--that of a small boy wanting to get in good +with the boys, trying to use words that he thought would please. I +didn't know to whom he addressed himself, but it struck me as something +out of Pravda in his terminology. And I knew, as I have testified, that +several of the statements in it were flatly false, and I wondered about +the rest, and then when I heard that he was using a different name, +that again was indication of a great disregard for truth on the part of +Lee Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. Now what time of day did the interview on November 1 take +place? + +Mrs. PAINE. Afternoon. + +Mr. JENNER. Late? + +Mrs. PAINE. Middle of the afternoon. My memory is there were no +children around which means it was nap time. + +Mr. JENNER. It couldn't have been along about 5 o'clock in the +afternoon? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was a Friday, wasn't it? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, it was. + +Mrs. PAINE. And he probably came out that Friday. + +Mr. JENNER. You were just telling the agent, you had told the agent, +had you not, that he came on weekends. + +Mrs. PAINE. I did. + +Mr. JENNER. And he arrived on Fridays? + +Mrs. PAINE. I did. + +Mr. JENNER. And this was a Friday? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was, and you will recall yesterday---- + +Mr. JENNER. And you did tell the agent that? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. It had to have been that session. I know I certainly +told him, and it had to have been that time because the second meeting +was very brief and had only to do with the address. + +Mr. JENNER. And that was not on a Friday? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; it was not. + +Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about the agent remaining because Lee +Oswald would be along, he was expected? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. May I interject here to recall to your mind that as I +looked through my calendar trying to find if there was any time, any +weekend other than the weekend of October 12, that Lee arrived on a +Saturday instead of a Friday, it had to be that weekend by deduction. +And I don't recall whether he arrived that Friday evening. + +I do recall when he arrived we told him about this meeting and I gave +him the piece of paper on which I had written Mr. Hosty's name and the +normal telephone number for the FBI in Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. But you recall no conversation. May I suggest this to +you as possibly refreshing your recollection. That on that Friday +afternoon, which I may say to you now, Mrs. Paine, is reported by Agent +Hosty as having taken place on November 1, and he has made his report +accordingly, was there any discussion of a suggestion that Lee Oswald +would be out that weekend, that is either that you told him he would +not be or that he would be, that you would expect him? + +Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is that I said he came out here on weekends +and he could be seen then. + +Mr. JENNER. Go ahead. + +Mrs. PAINE. And I have no recollection of ever thinking he was not +going to come that weekend. + +Mr. JENNER. You have also testified that you were also advised in +advance when he was coming? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. He asked permission. So if he were coming on the 1st of +November, that very day, you would have been advised in advance that he +was coming, would you not, according to your testimony. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I would think so. + +Mr. JENNER. But you don't recall saying anything to Agent Hosty that he +was coming that evening, at least that you expected him to be there. + +Mrs. PAINE. I may have. I don't specifically recall. + +Mr. JENNER. But you do have a recollection that you told him at least +generally that Lee Oswald came to your home on weekends? + +Mrs. PAINE. I feel certain of that. + +Mr. JENNER. In any event, Agent Hosty did not remain? + +Mrs. PAINE. He did not remain. I don't think it was very close to 5 +when he left. It was earlier in the afternoon. + +Mr. JENNER. You are inclined to think the interview took place earlier +in the afternoon, that is prior to 5 o'clock? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; more likely 2 to 3 or 3:30. + +Mr. JENNER. During the slumber hours of your children? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Now you are certain in your own mind that you had no +interview or no FBI agent interviewed you prior to November 1? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And if an FBI agent did interview you, you were not aware +that you were being interviewed? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is absolutely correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection that on October 29, that would +be 2 days before the Friday session that you have testified about, that +some sales person or purporting to be a sales person or a drummer or +somebody came to your door and made some inquiries of you about the +Oswalds? + +Mrs. PAINE. October 29 is a Tuesday. I don't recall any such encounter. +Written on my calendar is "Dal" for Dallas "Junie" meaning we went to a +clinic in Dallas in the morning. It doesn't say about the rest of the +day. + +Mr. JENNER. Now when you reported to Lee Oswald the name of the agent +and the telephone number, you put that on a slip of paper. + +Mrs. PAINE. I did. + +Mr. JENNER. And handed the slip of paper to him? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any conversation between you then as to FBI +agents having at any time prior thereto interviewed Lee Oswald. + +Mrs. PAINE. There may have been. I am certainly clear that I was told +probably by Marina that he had been interviewed, or by both of them, +that he had been interviewed in Fort Worth when they first returned +from the Soviet Union. This I knew before the time of the assassination. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Marina say whether she had been interviewed in Fort +Worth? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. This was only that Lee Oswald had been interviewed at Fort +Worth? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. But you recall no conversation in which either Lee or +Marina said or intimated to you that they had, either of them had been +interviewed either in New Orleans or in Dallas. + +Mrs. PAINE. Nothing was mentioned of having been interviewed in New +Orleans or Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. You made some reference yesterday, and I want to keep it in +context, to the license number of the FBI agent. + +Mrs. PAINE. Not in testimony. Did I? + +Mr. JENNER. I thought you had. + +Mrs. PAINE. Perhaps. + +Mr. JENNER. It would be well if we went into that. Would you please +recite what that incident was? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am confused by the question. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the matter of the taking of the agent's +license number from his automobile? + +Mrs. PAINE. I was told by Agent Hosty well after the assassination +that they had found in Oswald's room in Dallas a slip of paper which +included not only Hosty's name and the telephone number of the FBI in +Dallas, but also the license plate number with one letter incorrect, +one number incorrect, of the car that Hosty had driven out. This was +the first I had heard anything about their having been a license plate. + +Mr. JENNER. You did not take---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Number taken down. + +Mr. JENNER. You did not take the number down and place it on that piece +of paper? + +Mrs. PAINE. I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Or give it to Lee Harvey Oswald or to Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. I did not. I was never at any time interested in the +license plate number. I wondered why anyone else would have been. + +Mr. JENNER. In any event, the first you heard of the license number was +after the assassination? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Under the circumstances you have now related? + +Mrs. PAINE. I might describe the second meeting with Mr. Hosty a little +more in detail. + +Mr. JENNER. That is November 1? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is the only way I can guess as to how this license +plate number was in Oswald's room. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mrs. PAINE. Hosty and I, and a second agent was with him, I don't know +the name, stood at the door of my home and talked briefly, as I have +already described, about the address of Oswald in Dallas. Marina was +in her room feeding the baby, or busy some way. She came in just as +Hosty and I were closing the conversation, and I must say we were both +surprised at her entering. He then took his leave immediately, and as +he has told me later, drove to the end of my street which curves and +then drove back down Fifth Street. + +Mr. JENNER. Now you are reporting something agent Hosty has told you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of the fact that he drove to the end of the +street? + +Mrs. PAINE. Not at that time, no. I was aware that he had parked his +car out in front of my house. My best judgment is that the license +plate was not visible, however, while it was parked; not visible from +my house. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see the car? + +Mrs. PAINE. I saw the car. + +Mr. JENNER. Parked? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I noticed it particularly. Because the first time he +had come on the 1st of November, he had parked down the street, and +he made reference to the fact that they don't like to draw attention +for the neighborhood to any interviews that they make, and in fact +my neighbor also commented when she had talked with him a few days +previously that his car was parked down the street and wasn't in front +of my house. So I noticed the change that he had parked directly in +front. But to the best of my recollection, in back of the Oldsmobile of +my husband's. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you attempt to look to see what his license number was? + +Mrs. PAINE. What? + +Mr. JENNER. Did you attempt to look at his automobile to see what the +license number was? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; nor could I have seen it from my house without my +glasses on. I am nearsighted, and I was not wearing them. + +Mr. JENNER. But the license plate would have been visible to anybody +walking down the street or who desired? + +Mrs. PAINE. Walking down the street, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Or looking out your garage. + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't think so, because to the best of my recollection, +an Oldsmobile that my husband bought was also in front of the house, so +that the cars would have been close at the bumpers. + +Mr. JENNER. So the license plates would have been screened by the +Oldsmobile? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you given us all you have in mind with respect to the +incidents? + +Mrs. PAINE. There is one other thing which is a little different, and I +had forgotten it but it is recalled by our conversation. I have already +said that I said to Agent Hosty that if in the future Marina and Lee +are living together, and I know, or I have correspondence with them I +would give him his address if he wished it. Then it was the next day or +that evening or sometime shortly thereafter Marina said to me while we +were doing dishes that she felt their address was their business. Now +my understanding is she doesn't understand English well. The word in +Russian for address is "adres," and she made it plain that this was a +matter of privacy for them. This surprised me. She had never spoken in +this way to me before, and I didn't see that it made any difference. + +Mr. JENNER. Did this arise out of, or in connection with, or was it +stimulated, by any discussion between the two of you of the visit of +Agent Hosty? + +Mrs. PAINE. So far as I could see, it arose separately. + +Mr. JENNER. So far as you can recall? + +Mrs. PAINE. As far as I can recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you make any effort to obtain Lee Oswald's address so +that you could give it to the FBI? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. As I have testified, I really thought they had it. + +Mr. JENNER. When you made the telephone call to Lee Oswald and learned +he apparently was living under an alias, and certainly in that weekend +immediately preceding the assassination when the argument occurred +between Marina and Lee Oswald on which he upbraided her for having made +the call, you still weren't activated to call the FBI and tell them +that he was living under an assumed name, is that true? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is true. I did expect to give this copy which I had +made of his "Dear Sirs," letter which you have marked Commission +Exhibit 103 to the FBI agent at the next meeting. + +Mr. JENNER. At the time he called if he did call? + +Mrs. PAINE. I thought he would. + +Mr. JENNER. During the interview on November 1, you have testified that +Marina was present some of the time. + +Mrs. PAINE. She was present virtually all of that time. + +Mr. JENNER. All of the time? + +Mrs. PAINE. And virtually none of the next time. + +Mr. JENNER. Virtually none. + +Mrs. PAINE. Just came in at the end, on the 5th. + +Mr. JENNER. Was she out in the yard? Did you get that impression any +time during that second interview? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; she had to have been in her room the entire time. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you firm, reasonably firm that Marina, even if she +desired to learn of the license number on Agent Hosty's car, that she +could not have seen or detected it while remaining in the house? + +Mrs. PAINE. She might possibly--oh, I wouldn't say that. It is +conceivable, depending on where it was parked, it is conceivable that +she could have seen it from the bedroom window. + +Mr. JENNER. You are holding up exhibit number? + +Mrs. PAINE. 430. + +Mr. JENNER. And you are pointing to what on that exhibit? + +Mrs. PAINE. The window of the bedroom which she occupied, which is the +southeast bedroom of my house, looks directly out to where I thought +the car was parked. From that position, if I am correct about where the +car was parked, she couldn't have seen the license plate, but she could +have seen it if as Agent Hosty described to me later she saw it while +the car was moving along the street. + +Mr. JENNER. When he pulled away? + +Mrs. PAINE. When he pulled away and then he came back and went the +other way. + +Mr. JENNER. So it is possible that she may have seen the license? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is possible. + +Mr. JENNER. This date that you are now talking about when he parked the +car in front of your house, that was November 5? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it was. + +Mr. JENNER. Whereas on November 1, he parked the car down the street. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. I might add a little more detail here if you +want it. Marina and I talked about whether to tell Lee that the FBI +had been out a second time, and the 5th was a Tuesday. We didn't see +Lee until the 8th. She said to me that he had been upset by the FBI's +coming out and inquiring about him, and he felt it was interference +with his family. And I said there is no reason for him to be upset, or +I think conveyed that idea. But the question of whether to tell him was +settled by Marina who told him on Friday evening, the 8th, and then +Lee inquired of me about that meeting, and he said--I don't think I +have yet said for the record--he said to me then he felt the FBI was +inhibiting his activities. This is what he said. Has this been said? + +Mr. JENNER. Not yet. + +Mrs. PAINE. All right, I have said it. I said to him "Don't be worried +about it. You have your rights to your views, whether they are popular +or not." But I could see that he didn't take that view but rather was +seriously bothered by their having come out and inquired about him. At +this time or another, I don't recall certainly, I asked whether he was +worried about losing his job, and he was. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say so, Mrs. Paine? + +Mrs. PAINE. I recall particularly a telephone conversation with him. +On one of those in which he called out to talk to Marina, I judge, +and perhaps she was busy still changing a baby and I talked. I don't +recall the exact circumstances but I do recall it, and I said to him +if his views, not any references now to the FBI or their interest in +him, but if his political views were interfering with his ability to +hold a job, that this might be a matter of interest to the American +Civil Liberties Union, that he should in our country have a right to +unpopular views or any other kind. + +This I believe was after he had been to an American Civil Liberties +Union meeting with my husband, that meeting having been October 25. + +Mr. JENNER. What was his response? + +Mrs. PAINE. He was pleased, I felt. He felt in a sense reassured. And +indeed I think his response was to join, because it was later reported +in the press that he had, which makes me think that this telephone +conversation was quite close to the time of the assassination. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine---- + +Mrs. PAINE. I am putting in a lot of guesswork. + +Mr. JENNER. Am I interrupting you? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. It is just that I wonder if you want me to dredge this +deeply into things I cannot be absolutely certain about. + +Mr. JENNER. We would like your best recollection. We do hesitate about +speculation. + +Mrs. PAINE. Indeed. + +Mr. JENNER. When we are asking about factual matters. We do ask for +your speculation occasionally, but to try to make it quite deliberate +when we are asking for that rather than for facts. Have you now stated +all that comes to mind with respect to the advice to Lee Oswald of the +visit of FBI agents or any discussion with Mr. Oswald at any time while +he visited your home during this period in 1963 prior to November 22 +with respect to FBI agent visits? + +Have you now exhausted your recollection on the subject? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think one other thing. Agent Hosty asked me, and I am not +certain which time, but more likely the second, since so far as I can +recall Marina wasn't present, if I thought this was a mental problem, +his words referring to Lee Oswald, and I said I didn't understand the +mental processes of anyone who could espouse the Marxist philosophy, +but that this was far different from saying he was mentally unstable or +unable to conduct himself in normal society. + +I did tell Lee that this question had been asked. He gave no reply, but +more a scoffing laugh, hardly voiced. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you now exhausted your recollection? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have clearly exhausted it. + +Senator COOPER. Who asked the question? + +Mrs. PAINE. Hosty asked the question "Is this a mental problem?" + +Senator COOPER. Did you ever hear Oswald express any anger toward +either the agents or the FBI, as an agency? + +Mrs. PAINE. He expressed distinct irritation that he was being +bothered. That is how he looked upon it. + +Senator COOPER. You said that you thought he was concerned about its +effect upon his job, but did he express any emotion other than that? + +Mrs. PAINE. And he was being inhibited in what he wanted to do. + +Senator COOPER. Any irritation or anger because they had interviewed? + +Mrs. PAINE. In tone of voice, yes. + +Senator COOPER. What would it be like? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, irritated. He said, "They are trying to inhibit my +activities." + +Senator COOPER. Did he swear at all? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Senator COOPER. He used no language. + +Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't. + +Senator COOPER. Did he raise the tone of his voice? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Senator COOPER. Did he show---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Nothing more than an edge to his voice I would say. + +Senator COOPER. Did he direct it against any individual FBI agent. + +Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't. I have one other recollection that possibly +should be put in regarding the conversation with Agent Hosty the first +time when Marina was present. We discussed many things, just as you +would having coffee in the afternoon with a visitor, and---- + +Mr. JENNER. Is this a discussion between you and Marina with the agent +present or not present. + +Mrs. PAINE. He was present. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mrs. PAINE. Discussion between the three of us. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you. + +Mrs. PAINE. And I can't recall certainly who brought it up, but I +think Marina asked of Hosty what did he think of Castro, and he said, +"Well, he reads what is printed and from the view given in the American +newspapers of Castro's activities and intentions, he certainly didn't +like those intentions or actions." + +And Marina expressed an opinion subsequently, but contrary, that +perhaps he was not given much chance by the American press, or that the +press was not entirely fair to him. This I translated. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that the extent of it? Now have you exhausted your +recollection? + +Mrs. PAINE. I hope so. I have exhausted myself. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, do you have another question? + +Senator COOPER. Not on this subject. + +Mr. JENNER. I would like to return to your furnishing of the name and +the telephone number of Agent Hosty. In Commission Exhibit No. 18, +which is in evidence, which was Lee Oswald's diary--by the way, may I +hand the exhibit to the witness, Mr. Chairman? + +Senator COOPER. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. This is an address book. In any event it is in evidence as +Exhibit No. 18. Have you ever seen that booklet before? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Examine the outside of the booklet. Have you seen this? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have never seen this. + +Mr. JENNER. You have never seen that in Lee Oswald's possession? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have never seen it at all. + +Mr. JENNER. There is an entry as follows. Would you help me Mr. +Redlich. Would you read it please? + +Mr. REDLICH. "November 1, 1963 FBI agent James P. Hosty." + +Mrs. PAINE. Junior? + +Mr. REDLICH. Just above the word "Hosty" appears in parentheses "RI +1-1121," and underneath "James P. Hosty" appears "MU 8605." Underneath +that is "1114 Commerce Street Dallas." I would just like to correct +upon the record that the phone number originally read is "RI-11211." + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. What is that phone number? + +Mrs. PAINE. That phone number I recognize from my own use of it is to +the FBI in Dallas, my use since the assassination. + +Mr. JENNER. And the series of numbers rather than phone numbers, series +of numbers "MU 8605." + +Mrs. PAINE. Is not known to me. + +Mr. JENNER. What is the system of license plate numbering and lettering +employed in Texas? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am not acquainted with any particular system. They use +both letters and numbers. + +Mr. JENNER. I call your attention in connection with this entry that +it is dated November 1, 1963, and there does appear in it the license +number. + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Your recollection is firm that you didn't furnish it? + +Mrs. PAINE. May I point out also that he must have put this down after +November 1st, or at least that evening. He could not have written it +down with---- + +Mr. JENNER. It had to be after the fact as you furnished him the name. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And the agent's address. + +Mrs. PAINE. I would think he could as well have added--you don't want +my thinking--this number. + +Mr. JENNER. The reason I call that to your attention, Mrs. Paine, it +still does not stimulate your recollection. + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Any differently than before. You did not furnish the +license number. + +Mrs. PAINE. I certainly did not. To the best of my recollection I did +not put down the address either. + +Mr. JENNER. Now during the course of that interview of November 5th, +did you not say to Agent Hosty that Lee had visited at your home +November 2 and 3? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is entirely possible, likely. + +Mr. JENNER. And in this connection I am at liberty to report to you +that Agent Hosty's report is that you did advise him that Oswald had +visited at your home on November 2 and November 3. Does that serve to +refresh your recollection that you did so advise him? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that. + +Mr. JENNER. Now did you express an opinion to Agent Hosty that Oswald +was "an illogical person?" + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did, in answer to his question was this a mental +problem, as I have just described to you. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; that is all right. And did you also say to Agent Hosty +that Oswald himself had "Admitted being a Trotskyite Communist." + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I doubt seriously I said Trotskyite Communist. I would +think Leninist Communist, but I am not certain. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember making a remark of similar import? + +Mrs. PAINE. Reference to Trotsky surprises me. I have come since the +assassination to wonder if he had Trotskyite views. I have become +interested in what such views are since the assassination. + +Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection you don't recall making +that comment? + +Mrs. PAINE. I wouldn't think that I had the knowledge by which to make +such a statement even. + +Mr. JENNER. Now after this rationalization you have made, Mrs. Paine, +it is your recollection that you did not make such a comment? + +Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall. What was the second item that I told Hosty +he had been out on the second and third? I am just trying to clarify +here. + +Mr. JENNER. You had told him that Lee Oswald had been at your home +November 2 and 3, that you told him that Lee Oswald was an illogical +person? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is it. + +Mr. JENNER. And third, that you told him that Oswald had admitted being +a Trotskyite Communist. + +Mrs. PAINE. I may have said that. I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. You may have said the latter. + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall, that is right. + +Mr. JENNER. It is possible that you did say it? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is possible. I am surprised, however, by the word at +that point. + +Mr. JENNER. Now do you recall a telephone interview or call by Agent +Hosty on the 27th of January 1964? Perhaps I had better put it this +way to you. Do you recall subsequent telephone calls after the +assassination that you received from Agent Hosty, that you did receive +such telephone calls? + +Mrs. PAINE. I did, and visits also, at the house. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall he called you on the 27th of January 1964 and +that he inquired whether you had given Lee Oswald the license number of +his automobile when he had been at your home? You stated that you had +not. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +I would have thought that was a face to face interview but I don't +recall. + +Mr. JENNER. But you also told Agent Hosty on that occasion, "However, +this license number could have easily been observed by Marina Oswald +since her bedroom is located only a short distance from the street +where this car would have been parked." + +Mrs. PAINE. I doubt I said "easily." + +Mr. JENNER. But you could have said that the license number could have +been observed by Marina from her bedroom? + +Mrs. PAINE. My recollection of this, that it was not a telephone +interview. + +Mr. JENNER. Telephone or otherwise, there was an interview of you at +which you made that statement, that Marina could have seen the license? + +Mrs. PAINE. That Marina could have? + +Mr. JENNER. You do recall the incident. You don't recall whether it was +at your home or whether it was by telephone? + +Mrs. PAINE. I certainly recall talking with Agent Hosty and on at least +one occasion about how that license number got in Oswald's possession. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall a telephone interview by an FBI agent Lee, +Ivan D. Lee on the 28th of December 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. The name is not familiar to me. A great many FBI agents---- + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an incident in which you reported to an FBI +agent that you had just talked with a reporter from the Houston Post? + +Mrs. PAINE. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. You recall that? + +Mrs. PAINE. I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Now during the course of that interview, you made reference +to a newspaper reporter, did you not? + +Mrs. PAINE. I did. His name is Lonny Hudkins. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you say that the reporter whom you have now identified +had advised you that Lee Harvey Oswald's mother had been working for a +party in Forth Worth during September and October 1962 as a practical +nurse, and according to the reporter, Mrs. Oswald, mother of Lee Harvey +Oswald, advised this party during her employment that her son was doing +important anti-subversive work? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you please relate that incident so we will have the +facts insofar as you participated in them stated of record? + +Mrs. PAINE. I will. I would not have recalled the date, but I knew it +to be toward the end of 1963. I was called on the telephone by Lonny +Hudkins, whom I had never met, announced himself as from the Houston +Post, said there was a matter of some importance that he wanted to +talk with me about, could he come out to the house? And he then +indicated the nature of what he wanted to talk about to the extent very +accurately reported in what you have just read. I called the FBI really +to see if they could advise me in dealing with this man. It struck me +as a very unresponsible thing to print, and I wanted to be able to +convince Hudkins of that fact. I was hopeful that they might be willing +to make a flat denial to him, or in some way prevent the confusion that +would have been caused by his printing this. + +Now shall I go on to tell about the encounter which followed with Mr. +Hudkins, and something of that content? + +Mr. JENNER. I am a little at a loss. Why don't you start because I +can't anticipate. + +Mrs. PAINE. Whether it is important? + +Mr. JENNER. You haven't related this to me. Are these statements you +made to the FBI that you are about to relate? + +Mrs. PAINE. If they asked. I don't recall specifically. I certainly +recall that the content of the telephone conversation reported there is +accurate and is in sum the conversation that then followed with Lonny +Hudkins too, except that it doesn't say what I said in the situation. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you report to the FBI that Mr. Hudkins had said to +you that the primary purpose of seeing you was an effort to get some +confirmation if possible of the possibility Oswald was actually working +on behalf of the United States Government prior to the assassination? + +Mrs. PAINE. I was aware that was his purpose. + +Mr. JENNER. That you knew of no such situation, and ventured the +opinion to the reporter that the story was wholly unlikely, that you +could not imagine anyone having that much confidence in Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is accurate. I went on to say that Mrs. Oswald, +senior, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, could well have said to this +matron a full year back and more that her son was doing important +anti-subversive work for the government. This was 1962 he was talking +about, but that this was her opinion or what she may have wished to +have true. And I did not consider it terribly creditable, and said to +him "You don't think you have a story here, do you?" + +Mr. JENNER. You also recall---- + +Mrs. PAINE. May I put in another point here? + +Mr. JENNER. In connection with this subject matter? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mrs. PAINE. I called and the man to whom I talked, I don't know if it +was Lee, or I think it was someone else who answered first, I am not +certain at all. + +Mr. JENNER. Odum? + +Mrs. PAINE. Odum? It certainly was not Odum. I know him. But someone +answered the phone and I told this to him, and perhaps it was Lee. He +said to me in response to my inquiring "What shall I do, here is this +man coming," he said "well you don't know anything of this nature do +you?" I said, "No". + +"Then anything you might have to say is sheer conjecture on the +subject?" + +"Yes." + +"Then you should certainly make that plain in talking with him." + +Mr. JENNER. Did you do so? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I certainly did. And I felt as though I really +shouldn't have bothered them. This was not of interest to them. But +then I was called back later by the FBI on the same subject. + +Mr. JENNER. And you reported that conversation, the subsequent call +back by the FBI? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. You have content of the first conversation I think +there, isn't that so, or it might have been? + +Mr. JENNER. There are a series, Mrs. Paine, that run in this order. The +first was on December 28, 1963. The conversation occurred between you +and an Agent Lee, and it was a telephone interview? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I have asked you about that, and I have read from the +report and you have affirmed that you so reported to the agent. And +on the next day, December 29, 1963, you had a telephone conversation, +whether you called or whether the agent called, with Kenneth C. Howe. + +Mrs. PAINE. What is his name? + +Mr. JENNER. Kenneth C. Howe, on this same subject. I have questioned +you about that, and I have read from the report, and you have affirmed +as to that. Then on January 3, 1964, this apparently was an interview +at your home by Agent Odum? Do you recall that? + +Mrs. PAINE. Agent Odum has been out a great deal. + +Mr. JENNER. In which you say, did you not, that this reporter Hudkins +of the Houston Post newspaper in his contact with you on the previous +Saturday, December 28 had stated that the FBI was foolish to deny that +Agent Joseph Hosty, being a reference to the FBI agent we have been +talking about today, had tried to develop Lee Harvey Oswald as an +informant. You stated you had made no comment one way or the other to +Hudkins regarding this remark, and furthermore that you knew that---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Would you please repeat that, that I stated? + +Mr. JENNER. I will read it all to you then. You advised that Lonny +Hudkins, the reporter of the Houston Post in his contact that he had +with you on the previous Saturday, December 28, 1963, had stated to you +that the FBI was foolish to deny that Agent Hosty had tried to develop +Lee Harvey Oswald as an informant. Did you make that statement? + +Mrs. PAINE. Not in just those terms. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you make the further statement that you made no comment +one way or the other to Hudkins regarding this remark of his to you? In +order to get this in the proper posture, Mrs. Paine---- + +Senator COOPER. Do you understand the question? + +Mrs. PAINE. I understand what is said, but it doesn't check strictly +with my recollection, that is the confusion. + +Mr. JENNER. What the agent is reporting is your report of what Lonny +Hudkins had said to you, and your report to the agent of your response +to what Lonny Hudkins had said to you. Do we have it now in the proper +posture? + +Mrs. PAINE. This is by no means an accurate description of the +conversation or my response. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't have to accept this report, of course, Mrs. +Paine. Tell us what occurred in that interview? + +Mrs. PAINE. All right. + +Mr. JENNER. What you said and what Agent Odum said to you. + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I don't recall that so well. I was going to tell you +what I said to Hudkins. I do recall this, and it may be the foundation +for what appears in your report there. I made no comment on Mr. Hudkins +saying that there was a Joe Hosty, and that this agent had been in +contact with Oswald. I observed that Hudkins had inaccurate information. + +Mr. JENNER. Didn't you tell the agent what this reporter had said to +you that was inaccurate, to wit, that the reporter had stated to you +that the FBI was foolish to deny that Agent Hosty had tried to develop +Lee Harvey Oswald as an informant? + +Mrs. PAINE. What is totally inaccurate is the following, that implies +that I made no comment to Hudkins regarding such a remark. + +Mr. JENNER. No please, that has not been suggested. I am trying to take +this chronologically. Did you first report to the agent that Hudkins +had said to you that the FBI was foolish to deny that Agent Joseph +Hosty had tried to develop Lee Harvey Oswald as an informant. + +Mrs. PAINE. Certainly what Hudkins said was of this nature. + +Mr. JENNER. And you so reported to the agent? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Then did you make the further remark, which is what I think +you are trying to say, that you made no comment one way or the other to +Hudkins when he made that remark, his remark to you? + +Mrs. PAINE. I made a great deal of comment and I will say what those +comments were. + +Mr. JENNER. You did to the reporter. + +Mrs. PAINE. To the reporter, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Please say what you said, and did you report this to the +FBI, Mr. Odum? + +Mrs. PAINE. Inadequately clearly, judging from the---- + +Mr. JENNER. Why don't you do it this way? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes I reported it. + +Mr. JENNER. Let us have first what you said to the FBI agent on the +subject? + +Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall what I said to the FBI agent. It is much +easier for me to recall what I said to Hudkins. But I do recall clearly +that I said to the FBI agent "I made no correction of his inaccuracies +about Hosty's name." This is where I made no comment. + +Mr. JENNER. I am at a loss now. + +Mrs. PAINE. Joe is not his name. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. His name is James? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you indicate to the agent that you had raised an issue +with the reporter? + +Mrs. PAINE. He also spelled it with an "i", Hudkins. + +Mr. JENNER. With respect to the other phase, that is to what the +reporter had said to you. + +Mrs. PAINE. I would guess that I reported to Mr. Odum other things +about---- + +Mr. JENNER. Present recollections Mrs. Paine. + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall the particular conversation with Mr. Odum at +all. I talked with him a great deal. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you deny this state to Mr. Hudkins, the reporter? + +Mrs. PAINE. To Mr. Hudkins? + +Mr. JENNER. Did you say to him that you did not agree with his +statement? + +Mrs. PAINE. To Mr. Hudkins I said many things, which I hoped would +convince him that he had no story, that his information was very shaky, +that Oswald was not in my view a person that would have been hired by +the FBI or by Russia. I said to him "You are the other side of the +coin from a Mr. Guy Richards of the New York Journal-American who is +certain that Oswald was a paid spy for the Soviet Union, and just as +inaccurate," and coming to, in my opinion, and of course I made it +clear this was my opinion, to conclusions just as wrong. + +Mr. JENNER. That is, it was your opinion that Lee Oswald was neither a +Russian agent nor an agent of any agency of the United States? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. I said indeed to Mr. Hudkins, I had said to +Mr. Richards that if the so-called great Soviet conspiracy has to rest +for its help upon such inadequate people as Lee Oswald, there is no +hope of their achieving their aims. I said I simply cannot believe that +the FBI would find it necessary to employ such a shaky and inadequate +person. + +Mr. JENNER. And is that still your view? + +Mrs. PAINE. Indeed it is. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you also say to Mr. Odum on that occasion that you knew +that Agent Hosty had not interviewed Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. Probably. + +Senator COOPER. Did you read the statements after they had been written? + +Mrs. PAINE. What statements? + +Senator COOPER. The statements of the FBI. + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no; I have never. + +Senator COOPER. You have never seen them? + +Mrs. PAINE. Never seen anything of it. I knew they must write +something, but I have never seen any of these statements. + +Senator COOPER. You never asked them to show you the statements? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever make a statement to anybody that you can +recall that Lee Harvey Oswald in your opinion was doing underground +work? + +Mrs. PAINE. That has never been my opinion. I would be absolutely +certain that he never---- + +Mr. JENNER. Please, did you say it? + +Mrs. PAINE. And I would be absolutely certain that I never said such a +thing. + +Mr. JENNER. To anybody, including when I say anybody, Mrs. Dorothy +Gravitis? + +Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely certain. Never said to anyone that I thought Lee +was doing undercover work. + +Senator COOPER. What is that name? + +Mr. JENNER. Gravitis, G-r-a-v-i-t-i-s. + +Senator COOPER. Do you know this person? + +Mrs. PAINE. She is my Russian tutor in Dallas. + +Senator COOPER. What? + +Mrs. PAINE. Russian tutor and the mother-in-law of the translator that +was at the police station. + +Mr. JENNER. To conclude this series---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Would you clarify for me, someone is of the opinion that I +thought that Oswald was an undercover agent for whom? + +Mr. JENNER. That you said so. + +Mrs. PAINE. For whom? + +Mr. JENNER. For the Russian government. + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh. I have certainly never said anything of the sort. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever say to anybody including Mrs. Gravitis that +you thought Lee Harvey Oswald was a Communist? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, it is possible I said that. I thought he considered +himself a Communist by ideology, certainly a Marxist. He himself always +corrected anyone who called him a Communist and said he was a Marxist. + +Mr. JENNER. When you use the term communist do you think of a person as +a member of the Communist Party or a native of Russia? + +Mrs. PAINE. I seldom use the term at all, but I would confine it +to people who were members or considered themselves in support of +Communist ideology. + +Mr. JENNER. A person in your mind may be a Communist, and yet not a +member of the Communist Party, even in Russia? + +Mrs. PAINE. I might use the word in that loose way. + +Mr. JENNER. The last of these interviews was on, may I suggest, and if +not would you correct me, January 27, 1964, by Agent Wiehl, and Agent +Hosty. It appears, and would you please correct me if I am wrong, to +have been an interview in your home at the very tail end of January +1964? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have no specific recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an interview in which you reported to the +FBI, these two agents, that agent Hosty--no, that you gave Lee Harvey +Oswald the name of agent James P. Hosty together with the Dallas FBI +telephone number which you had obtained on November 1, 1963, that you +did not give him the license number of the automobile driven by agent +Hosty, however, and that, as I have asked you before, the license +number could have been observed by Marina Oswald on November 1? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection of the occurrence. + +Mr. JENNER. And it could have been observed on November 5th? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Senator COOPER. Did you yourself see the license plate? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Senator COOPER. You don't know the numbers or letters that were on the +license plate? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you testified yesterday and you testified again +today, this morning, that you had no recollection of Lee Oswald having +gone into the garage of your home on Thursday, November 21. Do you +recall that testimony? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, that I did not see him there or see him go through +the door to the garage. I was clear in my own mind that it was he who +had left the light on, and I tried to describe that. + +Mr. JENNER. It may have been a possibility and you were inferring from +that that he was in the garage. + +Mrs. PAINE. I definitely infer that. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you interviewed by the FBI agents Hosty and Abernathy +on the 23d of November 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And in the course of that interview, do you recall having +stated to these agents that on the evening of November 21, Lee Oswald +went out to the garage of your home, where he had many of his personal +effects stored, and spent considerable time, apparently rearranging and +handling his personal effects. + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall saying exactly that. + +Mr. JENNER. Could you have said that to the agents. + +Mrs. PAINE. I could have said as far as spending considerable time. + +Mr. JENNER. Now that your recollection is possibly further refreshed, +please tell us what you did say to the agents as you now recall? + +Mrs. PAINE. You have refreshed nothing. You have got all there was of +my recollection in previous testimony. + +Mr. JENNER. Based on the fundamentals, the specifics which you have +given us yesterday and today, you did report to the FBI on the 23d of +November in the interview to which I have called your attention that on +the evening of the 21st Oswald went out to the garage where he had many +of his personal effects stored, and spent considerable time apparently +rearranging and handling his personal effects. + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall ever saying "apparently rearranging and +handling." + +Mr. JENNER. Other than the word "apparently" that is a reasonable +summary of what you did say to the FBI agents, is it? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. I think my best recollection is as I have +given it to you in the testimony, was it this morning, that I certainly +was of the opinion that he had been out there. I had been busy for some +time with my children, and I could easily, and of course that was the +day after, and this several months after, have been of the opinion, +been informed as to how long he had been out there, but my recollection +now doesn't give me any length of time. + +Mr. JENNER. You have heretofore given us yesterday and today your very +best recollection after full reflection on all the course of events. + +Mrs. PAINE. I certainly have. + +Mr. JENNER. I notice that during the course of the interview, and +perhaps you will recall, that you did call attention of the FBI, these +two agents, to the Mexico City letter about which you have testified, +is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I gave it to them. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, that is all I intend to cover with respect to +the FBI. Do you have any questions? We will go on to another subject. + +Senator COOPER. This would be going back into the subject on which you +have already testified, but with reference to this last statement, +this letter, where it is reported, you said, Lee Oswald did go into +the garage and spend some time, did you make a statement to the FBI +after the agents had been in the garage, or the police had been in the +garage, and had found the blanket with nothing in it. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, certainly, this was the next day that Hosty was out +with Abernathy. + +Senator COOPER. And you did remember of course that you found the light +on? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Senator COOPER. You did not expect it to be on in the garage? Do you +think it is correct then that at the time you made this statement, +recognizing the importance of the garage, that you did say at that time +that he had been in the garage on the night before the President was +assassinated? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I think I said that. + +Senator COOPER. You think you made that statement? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think I made that statement. This was certainly my +impression. + +Mr. JENNER. You have already related the arrival of your husband, +Michael Paine, at your home in mid-afternoon of the day of the +assassination? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now would you please tell me exactly to the best of your +recollection the words of your husband as he walked in the door? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall his saying anything. + +Mr. JENNER. Now his words if any with respect to why he had come. + +Mrs. PAINE. I asked him before he volunteered. I said something to the +effect of "how did you know to come?" + +Mr. JENNER. And what did he say? + +Mrs. PAINE. He said he had heard on the radio at work that Lee Oswald +was in custody, and came immediately to the house. + +Mr. JENNER. And that is what you recall he said? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say, and I quote: "I heard where the President was +shot, and I came right over to see if I could be of any help to you." + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he also say to you that he "Just walked off the job." + +Mrs. PAINE. No. He said he had come from work. I might interject here +one recollection if you want it. + +Mr. JENNER. Please. + +Mrs. PAINE. Of Michael having telephoned to me after the assassination. +He wanted to know if I had heard. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he call you before he arrived at your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. He called. He knew about the assassination. He had been +told by a waitress at lunchtime. I don't know whether he knew any +further details, whether he knew from whence the shots had been fired, +but he knew immediately that I would want to know, and called simply to +find out if I knew, and of course I did, and we didn't converse about +it, but I felt the difference between him and my immediate neighbor to +whom I have already referred, Michael was as struck and grieved as I +was, and we shared this over the telephone. + +Mr. JENNER. And his appearance in mid-afternoon, as you have related, +was, according to what he said activated as you have related, that he +had heard that Lee Oswald was now involved. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. How did you and Marina look at the parade, that is as the +motorcade went along were you and Marina---- + +Mrs. PAINE. This was not shown on television. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, it wasn't? + +Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection they had cameras at the +convention center, whatever it was, that the President was coming to +for dinner, and for his talk. + +Mr. JENNER. And was the motorcade being described, broadcast by radio? + +Mrs. PAINE. The motorcade was being described. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you and Marina listening to that? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, it was coming through the television set, but it +wasn't being shown. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you listening? + +Mrs. PAINE. We were. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she show an interest in this? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And it being broadcast in English, I assume you were doing +some interpreting for her? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Most of this has been covered, Senator Cooper, and I am +getting through pages fortunately that we don't have to go over again. + +Senator COOPER. After you knew that the President was dead, and Marina +knew, do you know, from that time on, whether she ever went into her +room, left you and went into her room? + +Mrs. PAINE. I would think it highly likely that she did. The +announcement that the President was actually dead came, oh, I think +around 1:30 or close to 2. I already related that my little girl wept +and fell asleep on the sofa. This was a time therefore that Marina +would have been putting Junie to bed in the bedroom. + +Senator COOPER. Between the time that you heard the President had been +shot and the news came that he died, did she ever leave you and go into +her room, do you remember? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't remember specifically, but you must understand that +the little baby was already born. She would have had many occasions, +needs to go into the room. + +Senator COOPER. Do you know whether she went into the garage? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't know. + +Senator COOPER. What? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't know whether she went into the garage. + +Mr. JENNER. You have no impressions in that respect? + +Mrs. PAINE. None. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an incident involving Lee Oswald's wedding +ring? + +Mrs. PAINE. I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you relate that, please? + +Mrs. PAINE. One or two FBI agents came to my home, I think Odum was +one of them, and said that Marina had inquired after and wanted Lee's +wedding ring, and he asked me if I had any idea where to look for +it. I said I'll look first in the little tea cup that is from her +grandmother, and on top of the chest of drawers in the bedroom where +she had stayed. I looked and it was there. + +Mr. JENNER. Calling on your recollection of this man, was he in the +habit of wearing his wedding ring? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did this strike you as unusual that the wedding ring should +be back in this cup on the dresser in their room? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, quite. + +Mr. JENNER. Elaborate as to why it struck you as unusual? + +Mrs. PAINE. I do not wear my wedding ring. Marina has on several +occasions said to me she considers that bad luck, not a good thing to +do. + +I would suspect that she would certainly have wanted Lee to wear his +wedding ring, and encouraged him to do it. + +Mr. JENNER. In face of the fact that he regularly wore his wedding +ring, yet on this occasion, that is being home the evening before, you +received this call, you went to the bedroom and you found the wedding +ring. Did it occur to you that that might have been in the nature of a +leave-taking of some kind by Lee Oswald, leaving his wedding ring for +Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. It occurred to me that that might have been a form of +thinking ahead. I had no way of knowing whether or not Marina had known +that he left it. I was not instructed where to look for it. + +Mr. JENNER. You were not? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. But Marina did say to you "would you look for Lee's wedding +ring?" + +Mrs. PAINE. No, Odum did. + +Mr. JENNER. Odum did. + +Mrs. PAINE. And of course clearly they would know whether he had it. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, I see. It was not Marina. It was one of the FBI +agents. And it is your clear recollection that he was in the habit of +wearing that wedding ring all the time. Do you ever recall an occasion +when he left the wedding ring at home? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. To your knowledge? + +Mrs. PAINE. To my knowledge, no. + +Mr. JENNER. When you obtained the wedding ring did you examine it? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. I mean did you look inside to see if there was an +inscription on it or were you curious about that? + +Mrs. PAINE. I gave it to Mr. Odum who was with me in the room. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Odum accompanied you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Went with me to the bedroom. I am pretty sure he was the +one. + +Senator COOPER. The morning of the day that the President was killed, +did Mrs. Oswald, after she got up, say anything to you about any +unusual characteristics of Lee Oswald's taking leave of her that +morning? + +Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely none. + +Senator COOPER. Did she talk about him leaving? Did she tell you +anything at all about what happened when he did get up? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have a recollection that must be from her that she woke +enough to feed the baby, to nurse the baby in the morning, when he +was getting up to go, but she then went back to sleep after that, and +she must have told me that. But that is all I know, that she had been +awake, and nursed the baby early in the morning, and then went back to +sleep. + +Senator COOPER. And Lee Oswald went back to sleep? + +Mrs. PAINE. No, no, Marina went back to sleep. + +Senator COOPER. Oh, Marina went back to sleep. Was he leaving then? + +Mrs. PAINE. I judge so. + +Senator COOPER. What? + +Mrs. PAINE. I judge so. + +Senator COOPER. But I mean did she say anything else about him? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing about his leaving at all. + +Mr. JENNER. What were his habits with respect to breakfast? For example +on the Monday mornings of the weekends which he visited your home, did +he prepare his own, and if so, what kind of a breakfast did he prepare? + +Mrs. PAINE. I would say his habit was to have a cup of instant coffee +only. + +Mr. JENNER. And you have a clear recollection that on the morning of +the 21st when you went into the kitchen---- + +Mrs. PAINE. The 22d. + +Mr. JENNER. The 22d, I am sorry, the 22d you saw a plastic coffee cup +or tea cup, and you looked at it and you could see the remains of +somebody having prepared instant coffee? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And that is clear in your mind? + +Mrs. PAINE. Perfectly clear. I looked especially for traces of Lee +having been up, since I wondered if he might be still sleeping, having +overslept. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he in the habit on these weekends of making himself a +sandwich which he would take with him? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; there is no such habit. Perhaps once Marina prepared +something for him to take with him, I think more for him to put in his +room, partly for lunch, partly for him to have at his room in town and +use the refrigerator. + +Mr. JENNER. But in any event, on the morning of the 22d you saw no +evidence of there having been an attempt by anybody to prepare? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Sandwiches for lunch or to take anything else in the way of +food from your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. I saw no evidence, and I saw nothing that was missing. + +Mr. JENNER. At any time during all the time you knew the Oswalds, up to +and including November 22, was any mention ever made of any attempt on +the life of Richard Nixon? + +Mrs. PAINE. None. + +Mr. JENNER. Just that subject matter, was it ever mentioned? + +Mrs. PAINE. Never. + +Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection did they ever discuss +Richard Nixon as a person? + +Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall Richard Nixon coming into the conversation +at any time. + +Mr. JENNER. And to the present day--well, I want to include the time +that you spoke here a couple weeks ago with Marina, let us say up to +and including that day had there ever been any discussion with you by +Marina of the possibility of Lee Oswald contemplating making an attack +upon the person of Richard Nixon? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; no such discussion. + +Mr. JENNER. Did anyone else ever talk to you about that up to that +time, talk to you on that subject? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, after it was rumored in the paper, someone asked me +if I thought there was anything to it but that is something else. + +Mr. JENNER. When you say recently some rumor to that effect that is +what you are talking about? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Up to that time? + +Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely none. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it from your testimony this morning that you have +seen and talked with Robert Oswald but once? + +Mrs. PAINE. And you recall also when he came to pick up her things? + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. Twice. + +Mr. JENNER. So you saw him once for the first time in the city police +station? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. You talked with him on that occasion. You saw him on one +occasion when not so long after that he came out to pick up her things? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And had some conversation with him then. Have there ever +been any other occasions that you have had a conversation with him +directly or by telephone? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. I made one attempt to have such a conversation and +drove out to his home in Denton and talked with his wife. + +Mr. JENNER. And what occurred then? When was that? + +Mrs. PAINE. Possibly in January. + +Mr. JENNER. Of 1964? + +Mrs. PAINE. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. Why did you go out there? + +Mrs. PAINE. I had been writing letters to Marina and receiving no +reply, and I wanted to go and talk with both Robert and his wife +to inquire what was the best way to be a friend to Marina in this +situation, whether it was better to write letters or better not to, +whether she wanted to hear from me or whether she didn't, and knowing +that they had seen her, I felt they might be able to help me with this. + +I was told by Mrs. Robert Oswald that Robert had a bad cold, and she +didn't want to expose my children who were with me, and she and I +talked through the screen, and I explained what I wanted. But I didn't +feel helped by the visit. + +Mr. JENNER. You did not. + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you feel that there was a lack of cordiality? + +Mrs. PAINE. She apologized for not having me in, and she was friendly +and said, "what nice children you have," but it is somewhat hard to +communicate through a screen. + +Mr. JENNER. That was the only difficulty that you observed, the +difficulty in talking through the screen door, the screen of the door? + +Mrs. PAINE. I felt that she could have asked me whether I cared if my +children were exposed. I felt that she preferred for me not to come in. + +Senator COOPER. Was Marina staying with them? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe so. I am pretty certain she was at that +time at the Martin's home. + +Senator COOPER. Did you get any impression in your talk with Mrs. +Robert Oswald that they were not interested in finding out the +information that you were asking for? + +Mrs. PAINE. She offered the opinion that she didn't think there was any +particular point to writing letters at this time, but she offered no +reason. + +Mr. JENNER. By the way, do you have copies of those letters, Mrs. Paine? + +Mrs. PAINE. At home. + +Mr. JENNER. I know now that I will be to see you on Monday. + +Mrs. PAINE. Monday? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. Are you going to be home on Monday? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am flying Monday morning. Shall we go together? I am not +leaving until Monday morning. + +Mr. JENNER. I am going down Sunday night. So may I see those letters on +that occasion? + +Mrs. PAINE. As soon as I get home. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough---- + +Mrs. PAINE. I will have to translate them. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mrs. PAINE. That will take a while. + +Mr. JENNER. With respect to the curtain-rod package, would you be good +enough to leave it intact, don't touch it, just leave it where it is +without touching it at all. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now you have related to us the Texas School Book Depository +employment, the ability to operate an automobile. I am going to read +a list of names to you, and you stop me every time I read a name that +is familiar to you. There are some of the Russian emigré group in and +around Dallas. Some of them may not be Russian emigré group people, but +some of the members of the staff want these particular persons covered. + +George Bouhe. + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't know him. + +Mr. JENNER. I want also your response that you didn't hear these names +discussed by either Marina or Lee. + +Mrs. PAINE. I have never heard that name discussed by Marina or Lee +Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray. + +Mrs. PAINE. I did not hear that name discussed by either of them. I +have since learned from Mrs. Ford that it was to Mrs. Ray's home that +Marina went from Mrs. Ford's home in the fall of 1962. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray. + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. I won't ask you--well, I have Mr. and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt +on my list. + +You have already testified about them. + +Mrs. PAINE. I have met them once; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Only on that one occasion? + +Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection; that is right. + +Mr. JENNER. John and Elena Hall? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't know them. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear them discussed by either Marina or Lee? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have never at any time heard that name. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +I think I pronounce this correctly, Tatiana Biggers? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am not familiar with that name, and I never heard it. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Teofil Meller? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am not familiar with that name. + +Mr. JENNER. Lydia Dymitruk? + +Mrs. PAINE. I met a Lydia who was working as a clerk at a grocery store +in Irving, and I had met Marina previously. I am not certain of her +last name. I am certain that Marina told me not to learn Russian from +her, it was not grammatical. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +By the way, did Marina go out by herself occasionally and shop? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Daniel F. Sullivan? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't know that name. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs. Alan A. Jackson III? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't know that name. + +Mr. JENNER. Peter Gregory? + +Mrs. PAINE. I know that name; yes. That name was mentioned by, to the +best of my recollection first in my presence by, Marguerite Oswald, who +told us that she had just started at the police when I first met her---- + +Mr. JENNER. I would like that. The first time there came to your +attention and your consciousness the name Peter Gregory was when +Marguerite Oswald mentioned it at the police station on the 22d of +November 1963, is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; because she had just begun a course of study with him +in order to try to learn the Russian language at the public library. + +Mr. JENNER. She so said? + +Mrs. PAINE. She so said. I don't recall having heard the name +previously. Although I am not certain. + +Mr. JENNER. Paul Gregory. + +Mrs. PAINE. I would be absolutely certain I had never heard the name +from either of the Oswalds. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Is that likewise true of Paul Gregory who is the +son I may tell you of Peter Gregory? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am not familiar with that name. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. and Mrs., I know you are familiar with this name, Mr. +and Mrs. Declan Ford. When did you first hear of the name of those +people with respect to November 22, 1963, before or after or on that +very day? + +Mrs. PAINE. Mrs. Ford was mentioned to me by name by Marina in the fall +of 1963 before the time of the assassination. Marina described to me a +party at Mrs. Ford's home, and described the decor of the house and how +much she admired Mrs. Ford's tastes, and said that Mrs. Ford had done +most of the decorating herself. + +Let me just say Marina also told me she had stayed at someone's home in +the fall of 1962, but she did not tell me the name of Mrs. Ford in that +connection. It came up in this other connection. It is only since the +assassination that I learned she had stayed briefly at Mrs. Ford's. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +That is the extent of your information with respect to the Fords at +least up to November 22? + +Mrs. PAINE. Up to the time of the assassination that is the extent of +it. + +Mr. JENNER. I wish to be certain of this and I don't recall whether I +asked you and, therefore, I will risk repetition. + +Did Marina and Lee, with you or even without you, visit any people, to +your knowledge, while Marina was living with you in the fall of 1963, +just social visit, go out and make a social visit? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. I meant to include whether either together as a couple or +separately. + +Mrs. PAINE. I recall no such visit. + +Mr. JENNER. I think your testimony was when Lee Oswald came home on the +weekends, from what you have described he remained on the premises? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. With the possible exception of one instance when he went +off and bought some groceries or am I wrong about that exception? + +Mrs. PAINE. He went with my children to buy some popsicles while I was +teaching a student, so I was not at home that time. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +We have a report, Mrs. Paine, and you might help us with it on this +subject, of a barber in your community, who recounts to the FBI that +in his opinion Lee Harvey Oswald or what he thinks a gentleman who was +that man, came to his shop reasonably regularly and had a haircut on +Saturday, on Saturdays, and accompanying him was what he judged to be a +14-year-old boy. Do you recall Lee Oswald ever obtaining a haircut over +any weekend while he was at your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection, subject to his being off +the premises while you were away shopping, it is your present firm +recollection he never left the premises once he arrived, save this one +instance that you knew of when he went to get popsicles? + +Mrs. PAINE. Of course, I was away during that instance. + +Mr. JENNER. You were? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. But you anticipated? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Now, the morning of the 11th of November I was not +home from something before 9 o'clock until about 2 that afternoon. I +don't know what transpired during that time. + +Mr. JENNER. Were there other occasions when you were off ministering to +your children, that is taking them to the dentist or something of that +nature, on a Saturday or to church on Sunday or to the local park on +Sunday, that Lee Oswald may have been, that is periods of time when you +would not have known whether he was on or off your premises? + +Mrs. PAINE. I can think only of grocery shopping which would have been +an hour to an hour and a half period, and the two times that I can +recall in the Saturday afternoon, on a Saturday afternoon that I went +to Dallas to teach one Russian student a lesson. I can't think of any +other spaces of time, hours that I was away. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, this gentleman also says---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Except the one I have just mentioned, of course, the one of +November 11. + +Mr. JENNER. He also says that the man he thinks was Lee Harvey Oswald +not only regularly came to his shop on Friday evenings or Saturday +mornings for a haircut, but that he occasionally drove a station wagon. + +Do you know of any occasion to your certain knowledge that Lee drove +your station wagon other than the one occasion you have already related? + +Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely none. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Lee Oswald subscribed to any newspapers? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. What newspapers, excuse me, did he or did he not subscribe? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. They came to my door. They sat around the house until +the weekend when he arrived. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us what newspapers those were? + +Mrs. PAINE. I noticed a paper which I was told was from Minsk. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it in Russian? + +Mrs. PAINE. In Russian. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see it in the sense of glancing at it out of +idle curiosity if nothing else? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And it was in Russian? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there something about it that indicated to you that it +came from Minsk? + +Mrs. PAINE. Marina told me. + +Mr. JENNER. She told you. Was it a political tract or was it a +newspaper as we understand newspapers? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was a newspaper as Russians understand newspapers which +makes it a borderline political tract. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +In addition to that Russian newspaper from Minsk was there anything---- + +Mrs. PAINE. There was a Russian magazine, small, Reader's Digest size. + +Mr. JENNER. The witness is indicating in her hands about a page size of +about nine by---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Six. + +Mr. JENNER. Nine by six. + +Is that about the size? + +Mrs. PAINE. Something like that, called the Agitator, the name written +in Russian. + +Mr. JENNER. The word "Agitator" was written in Russian, printed in +Russian? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. On the face or cover page of this document, is that true? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was the entire document in Russian? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to look at it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Just the outside. + +Mr. JENNER. Your curiosity or intellectual interest never went beyond +reading any portion of one of the issues? + +Mrs. PAINE. It never did. + +Mr. JENNER. But you do recall definitely the title page? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Any others? + +Mrs. PAINE. Crocodile, which is a Russian satirical humor magazine. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that in Russian? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to read it and to observe Russian +humor? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. It was not political in character? + +Mrs. PAINE. Being satirical, of course, it made political reference but +it was not particularly political in nature. + +Mr. JENNER. It was not designed as a political tract, put it that way. + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Anything else? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The Russian magazine Ogonok. + +Mr. JENNER. What does that mean in Russian? + +Mrs. PAINE. It means "bonfire" or "fire". + +Mr. JENNER. Was that printed in Russian? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have--did your curiosity lead you to read any +portion of it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Or it may be--let's see, I am not certain in my +translation, but go ahead with the question. + +Mr. JENNER. You are not certain of your translation of the word? + +Mrs. PAINE. Of that single word? + +Mr. JENNER. Of the title of this document about which you are now +speaking? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. But you think it means what you said it meant? + +Mrs. PAINE. It has something to do with fire; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you read any portion of any of those issues? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. And what was the nature of it with respect to whether it +was political or otherwise? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was not political. + +Mr. JENNER. What was its nature? + +Mrs. PAINE. Narrative, special articles of interest to the general +population. Marina enjoyed reading this one. + +Mr. JENNER. She enjoyed it? + +Mrs. PAINE. She expressed herself as disliking the Agitator. She +interpreted some of the things in Crocodile for me which I had +difficulty understanding. + +Mr. JENNER. Anything else? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. He subscribed to Time magazine. + +Mr. JENNER. Here in America? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And did he read it when he come out on weekends? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did. He read that first. + +Mr. JENNER. Sat down and read that first. + +Did he take the issue away with him when he left every week? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is my impression he did. + +Mr. JENNER. Are there any others? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. He subscribed to the Militant. + +Mr. JENNER. Militant. What is the Militant? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is a paper in English, newspaper style and I would say +these next two---- + +Mr. JENNER. Published by whom? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. Socialist Worker's Party? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have been so told. + +Mr. JENNER. You just don't know? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. But was it a political tract? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't know that. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you read it? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Why didn't you? + +Mrs. PAINE. I wasn't interested. + +Mr. JENNER. Because of the nature of the document? + +Mrs. PAINE. If I had had time to do much reading, I might have taken +an interest but I had no time, insufficient time to do the reading I +really wanted to do. He also subscribed to the Worker. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that the publication of the Communist Party USA? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have been told so. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you read that? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you observe--have you now concluded the list of +newspapers, periodicals or magazines to which he was a subscriber? + +Mrs. PAINE. I believe so. I might say that my awareness of his +subscribing to these last two, the Militant and the Worker, came after +the assassination. There was mail awaiting for him for that weekend +which he did not pick up on the 21st, and after the assassination, +indeed, after Saturday evening, the 23d, when it was announced on +television that they had a photograph of Lee Oswald holding two papers. +I looked at this pile of mail waiting for him which consisted of these +two newspapers, the Militant and the Worker, and I threw them away. + +Mr. JENNER. You threw them away? + +Mrs. PAINE. Without opening them. + +Mr. JENNER. Why did you throw them away? + +Mrs. PAINE. I was pleased to throw away anything I could. I just didn't +want it. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, my question or query, and I think expression of +surprise, is activated by what I am about to ask you as to whether you +might call that to the attention of the FBI? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I am sure they knew. + +Mr. JENNER. How are you sure they knew? + +Mrs. PAINE. Because mail stopped coming on the spot, nothing came after +the assassination, I was certain it was still coming to some place. + +Mr. JENNER. But this was almost instantaneously after you heard a +broadcast that a photograph of him had been found in which he had been +holding up the Militant. + +But you immediately went to see if he had that mail and there was a +copy of the Militant and you threw it away? + +Mrs. PAINE. Why not? + +Mr. JENNER. Well, it occurred to me you might have called the FBI's +attention to the fact that it had come to the house. But you didn't in +any event? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you report it to the FBI in any of these interviews you +had subsequently with them, or did they ask? It is two questions, if +you will answer both. + +Mrs. PAINE. If so, it was quite recently. + +Mr. JENNER. When did the other papers begin to arrive? Did I interrupt +you before you had a chance to complete your answer to my question? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. The papers different from the Worker and the Militant, when +did they begin to arrive at your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, they began to arrive, I would say, some time after +October 4th. That is, of course, my judgment. That is a rationalization. + +Mr. JENNER. These magazines and newspapers you have recounted first +appeared at your home after Lee Oswald came to Dallas and became +employed or came to Dallas to live at your house and to seek employment? + +Mrs. PAINE. He came to Dallas, he lived in Dallas, but he used my house. + +Mr. JENNER. He came to your house? + +Mrs. PAINE. As a residence, mailing address. Never asked to and I never +complained but I noticed, of course, that he was using it as a mailing +address. + +Mr. JENNER. Up to that time and even though Marina was living with you +nothing of that nature came to your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. What? + +Mr. JENNER. Prior to the time that Lee arrived at your home on or about +or on the 4th of October 1963, none of these newspapers or periodicals +had come to your home, is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he a reader of the local newspaper? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You were a subscriber to what? + +Mrs. PAINE. To the Irving newspaper and the Sunday Dallas Morning News. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he read both of those? + +Mrs. PAINE. He was very interested in seeing the Sunday paper edition +especially. He read both, to the best of my recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. He also read the daily papers? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, he wasn't there daily. + +Mr. JENNER. When he was there he read it? + +Mrs. PAINE. The Irving paper didn't come out on Saturday, so it was +only the Sunday papers. + +Mr. JENNER. But there were occasions when you had issues, the Friday +issue around or Thursday issue around your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall his being interested in back issues. + +Mr. JENNER. Are there any letters and communications between you and +Marina or between you and Lee Oswald to which you have not called my +attention? + +Mrs. PAINE. There never were any letters of any sort between me and Lee +Oswald except unless you could include this English portion to which I +have already called your attention in a letter to Marina. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. The only other letters--I have called your attention to all +such letters, but I will have to wait until you are in Dallas to see +the letters written since the assassination to Marina. + +Mr. JENNER. Then I will ask you this question. + +You produced for my inspection all of these letters other than the ones +that I will see when I am in Dallas which you have identified as having +been written subsequent to, subsequently to, November 22, 1963, is that +correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right, you have all the correspondence. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mrs. PAINE. Wait, we did omit one letter which you have from Marina. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; I have it here. + +Mrs. PAINE. You have no gaps that I could supply you. + +Mr. JENNER. I appreciate the fact I have that letter which we found not +relevant and, therefore, I did not tender it. You have tendered to me +everything other than those I will see when I reach Dallas. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recall having a conversation with Dr. Froelich +Rainey---- + +Senator COOPER. May I ask, just a moment, the letter which has not been +tendered and which was said not to be relevant---- + +Mrs. PAINE. You have a copy of it. + +Senator COOPER. To whom was that letter addressed? + +Mr. JENNER. That is addressed to Marina. + +Senator COOPER. May I ask, does counsel have a copy of that letter? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; I have a copy of the letter and I have preserved the +original and I also have a typewritten copy. + +Senator COOPER. It has not been offered as part of evidence? + +Mr. JENNER. It has not been offered because it is irrelevant to +anything referred to here and it also has a personal remark in it that +Mrs. Paine would prefer not to have spread on the record. + +Mrs. PAINE. A remark not pertinent to the assassination or to the +Oswalds but to my marriage. + +Mr. JENNER. Is the name---- + +Senator COOPER. Let me just say for the record I think that will have +to be a matter which will have to be considered by the members of the +Commission. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +The letter to which you have reference you have exhibited to me, it is +in your handwriting and it is in the same condition now as it was, a +copy of a letter as I recall? + +Mrs. PAINE. Which letter are you referring to? + +(Short recess.) + +Senator COOPER. On the record. + +Mr. JENNER. I will do some jumping around because we have some tag ends +to cover, I hope in a hurry. + +You left New Orleans on September 23, was that in the morning or +afternoon? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was early morning. + +Mr. JENNER. Early morning. + +Did you drive right straight through to Irving? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You stopped then the evening of September 23, is that right? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And where, in Texas? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was just over the line into Texas. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the name of the town? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you pay for that lodging? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. By the way, was there ever any financial arrangement agreed +on with respect to Marina's stay with you in the fall of 1963 which +would involve your giving her $10 a week or any other sum? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing was said beyond this attempt in the letter that +I made to make her feel that she would not be having to ask for every +need. + +Mr. JENNER. We have those letters now in evidence and you testified +about them yesterday? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Returning your attention to the time that Mr. Oswald, Lee +Oswald, came to Irving in October of 1963, that is October 4, and +reported to you he hitchhiked, you recall that? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. He remained overnight the night of the 4th of October, is +that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he return to Dallas the following day? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he driven back to Dallas within the next couple of days +by you? + +Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is that I took him to the bus station +around noon on the 7th of October, that is a Monday. + +Mr. JENNER. You did not drive him all the way into downtown Dallas? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't believe so. + +Mr. JENNER. Marina has testified, or at least when interviewed by the +FBI stated, that you did drive Lee to downtown Dallas. + +Mrs. PAINE. I have given you all my recollections on this matter, +haven't I, for the record? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. With---- + +Mr. JENNER. Even after further reflection last night your recollection +is as you have already stated? + +Mrs. PAINE. That there was an occasion that we were going in with a +Russian typewriter on an errand of mine to get that fixed, and I drove +him to Ross Street and some crossroad, and he said was near to the +employment office. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +What occasion was this? + +Mrs. PAINE. What day? + +Mr. JENNER. Day, yes; please? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall but I would be fairly certain it was a +Monday. + +Mr. JENNER. And had he been out at your home over the weekend? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is my best recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it after he had become employed with the Book +Depository? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; he was on his way to the employment office. This was +his purpose. + +Mr. JENNER. So it was sometime prior to the weekend, was it, that the +matter of employment by the Texas Book Depository had arisen? + +Mrs. PAINE. I would judge that it has to have been on the 14th, which +was Monday prior and indeed morning prior to the conversation at Mrs. +Roberts about this. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mrs. PAINE. But I may be wrong about that, but it is my best +recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. Did the conversation at Mrs. Roberts take place on the 15th +of October? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; on the 14th. + +Mr. JENNER. On the 14th. That was what day of the week? + +Mrs. PAINE. Monday. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you drive him into Dallas on that day? + +Mrs. PAINE. I can't think when else it could have been. + +Mr. JENNER. And to the best of your recollection that is probably the +day then? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you indicate--did Marina accompany you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she or you indicate any interest in driving by and +seeing his apartment or room? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at any time, Mrs. Paine, in your +home or otherwise, with Marina or with Lee, as to the appearance of +his rooming house, curtains flooring, what it was like? + +Mrs. PAINE. The only thing I recall is that he described it as more +comfortable than the $7 room he had occupied, told me the cost of it, +said that he could watch television and had privileges to use the +refrigerator. + +Mr. JENNER. But other than that he didn't describe it? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there ever any discussion of any need on his part for +curtains, that he liked to brighten up his room or in any respect, any +additional appointments? + +Mrs. PAINE. There was no such conversation at any time. + +Mr. JENNER. You are acquainted with Dr. Froelich Rainey? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am. + +Mr. JENNER. He is--what is his position with the University of +Pennsylvania. He has a position with the University of Pennsylvania +Music Department, has he not? + +Mrs. PAINE. He is the curator, the head man, as I understand it. + +Mr. JENNER. You are acquainted with his wife Penelope? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am. + +Mr. JENNER. Does Penelope speak Russian fluently? + +Mrs. PAINE. She has a very good command of the language. I think she +has not had very much opportunity to use it in speech. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you had occasion to inquire of Mrs. Rainey as to +whether she might assist you with your Russian studies? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, there was never any discussion of assisting me in the +role of tutor. She did some years ago loan me a record which I taped +that was in Russian, and we visited this fall as part of my trip in the +east. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean, summer, not fall. + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, it was, yes, August probably or early September that +I saw her. + +Mr. JENNER. And you do recall during the course of your summer trip +before you went, that is you wound up in New Orleans from that trip? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. So we are talking about the same trip. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is the same trip. + +Mr. JENNER. You did see her? + +Mrs. PAINE. I did. + +Mr. JENNER. Where in Philadelphia? + +Mrs. PAINE. At her home. + +Mr. JENNER. Where is her home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Her home is not far from the residence where I was staying +in Paoli. It is suburban Philadelphia. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion then to report to her that--about +Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. And advise her in that respect, that she was married to an +American who is now residing in New Orleans? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you say to her that the, I will call the, lady, Marina, +but it is stated differently here, appeared to be having marital +difficulties with her husband. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And would you state what your remarks were to Mrs. Rainey +in that connection? That is the treatment of Marina by Lee? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall exactly what I said as to the treatment, +but that Marina was unhappy, and that I thought she should have some +alternative to living with him, and that I would probably, when down +there, offer for her to live at my home. She asked me what Michael +thought of that, and I said we had discussed it but that Michael and +I were not living together, and this was news to Mrs. Rainey, and +concerned her deeply. + +And I said that I was lonely. I recall one important thing in what I +said to Mrs. Rainey, that I never said in conversation to anyone else, +that I was worried about offending Lee, that if offended, or if he felt +I was taking his wife or not doing what he wanted in the situation, +that he might be angry with me, and that I didn't want to subject +myself or my children to possible harm from him. + +She is the only person to whom I mentioned my thought that he might +possibly be a person who could cause harm, and there was a very, not +a strong thought in my thinking at all, but should be registered as +having at least occurred to me, that he could be angry to the point of +violence in relation to me. + +Mr. JENNER. To the point of physical violence in relation to you? + +Mrs. PAINE. In relation to me in this situation and I wanted to be +perfectly sure before I made any offer definite that he was not, in +fact, angry at my offer. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall visiting your sister Sylvia? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; indeed. + +Mr. JENNER. You were there about 3 days? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss Marina when you were with your sister? + +Mrs. PAINE. Very probably. + +Mr. JENNER. And in substance did you say to your sister that you +intended to go to New Orleans in the course of your trip within about +2 weeks to pick up Marina who was pregnant, she was the wife of an +American, and she was to live with you in your home in Texas? + +Did you say that much to her? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I probably said it depended on whether she wanted to +go. + +Mr. JENNER. Other than that have I stated the substance in that +connection? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you also say to her that Marina wanted to leave her +husband who was not supporting her, and was a jerk as far as his +husband's role was concerned? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You did not. + +What did you say, did you say anything of similar import? + +Mrs. PAINE. Similar? + +Mr. JENNER. That is, you did imply to your sister, did you, that Marina +wished to leave Lee? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. I would guess that was her interpretation. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you say in this connection, please? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall exactly. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, did you say, did you express your personal opinion to +your sister as to Lee Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you say in that connection. + +Mrs. PAINE. My opinion of Lee Oswald was quite negative all the way up +to---- + +Mr. JENNER. This is what you have told your sister now, that is what I +want. + +Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall exactly what I told my sister at all. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. I talked with virtually everyone I saw this summer, and +there were a great many people, about this friend because it was +important to me. I have already testified that I thought Lee didn't +care enough about his wife and wasn't being a proper husband in the +spring and through the summer, therefore, and it wasn't until I was in +New Orleans that I thought he cared at all. + +Mr. JENNER. I am just confining myself to this period. During this +period as you visited your friends you did have occasion to express a +negative opinion on your part with respect to Lee Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. Indeed. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. It might have been more or less forceful in that expression +of your opinion depending on the person with whom or to whom you were +talking. + +Mrs. PAINE. I would say that my sister's reaction to what I said was +more forceful than what I said. + +Mr. JENNER. But you did express a negative opinion. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You testified that--are you acquainted with a Dr. Carl Hyde? + +Mrs. PAINE. He is my brother. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss Marina and Lee with him when you visited +there in September of 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. I recall particularly an evening discussion with his wife +where I told quite a lot about the contact that I had had with Marina. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you state to either or both of them that Marina's +husband was a Communist? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is possible. I think it is more likely that I referred +to him as a Marxist. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, what is the distinction between a Marxist and a +Communist in your mind? + +Mrs. PAINE. Distinction is not clear to me, but I judged that Lee felt +there was a distinction as he---- + +Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to what Lee thought a Marxist +was as distinguished from a Communist? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have no clear impression. + +Mr. JENNER. If I suggested the possibility of, that a Marxist tenet was +the change in government by violent means rather than gradual process? + +Mrs. PAINE. This is not something I ever heard from him. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it anything that you ever thought of? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. A concept that you ever had? + +Mrs. PAINE. In describing Marxism? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with Lee why he was--he always took +care to distinguish to say that he was a Marxist as distinguished from +a Communist? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I never did. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you form an impression as to what he intended to convey +by that description? + +Mrs. PAINE. He intended to convey that he was more pure, I felt, that +was my impression. + +Mr. JENNER. More pure than what? + +Mrs. PAINE. Than a Communist. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you also say to your brother or your sister or both of +them that Lee had not permitted her to learn English, that is Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. Very probably. + +Mr. JENNER. And that Marina was experiencing marital difficulties with +Lee? + +Mrs. PAINE. Very probably. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever say that Marina did not share her husband's +political views? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, that is to your brother or sister or both of +them? + +Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. Speaking of the marital difficulties, did you ever have the +feeling that Marina was in some measure a contribution--contributed +toward those, causing those difficulties or a catalyst from which those +difficulties resulted? + +Mrs. PAINE. I didn't have that feeling. + +Mr. JENNER. You did not. + +What feeling did you have in that direction, assuming you had one? + +Mrs. PAINE. All the time I knew her or at least any references from +her of the matter to their marriage left me with the impression that +it was hopeful that though it was difficult they could work out their +difficulties. + +Mr. JENNER. And that she was desirous of attempting to do so? + +Mrs. PAINE. She was desirous of attempting to do so though still +leaving open the possibility that in time she would have to conclude +that she couldn't. + +She by no means simply gave in to him on every point or let him walk on +her, but that, I would say, is a healthy thing for the marriage rather +than anything contributive to any fundamental difficulty in it. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you completed your answer? + +Senator COOPER. May I ask a question? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Senator COOPER. Did Marina ever indicate to you in any way whether or +not she felt, after she came to the United States and saw Lee Oswald +in his country in which he had been born and reared, that she found +him unintelligent or a person of mean ability, small ability or poor +background? + +Did she ever have any comment in any way on his being inferior? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall her ever commenting in that way. + +Mr. JENNER. Was she disappointed in any way after he returned to the +United States? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall her ever saying that. + +I had heard Mrs. Ford express such an opinion. + +Mr. JENNER. That would be hearsay? + +Mrs. PAINE. That would be hearsay. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you know, are you familiar with the report that +appeared in the Fort Worth Press on January 15, 1964, reporting that +you had told Marvin Lane that Lee could not have taken the rifle from +your garage and gone to practice without your knowledge? + +Do you recall that? + +Mrs. PAINE. I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Mark Lane. + +Mrs. PAINE. It is Mark but that perhaps was in the Fort Worth Press. I +recall that. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever make that statement to a reporter for the Fort +Worth Press? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did; with slight variation. It always came out a +more definite statement in the press than I meant to make it. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you say to the reporter then? + +Mrs. PAINE. I said I did not see how he could have taken the gun from +the garage without my knowing it. There were two weekends particularly +in question which had been reported in the Press that someone had seen +him at a firing range, one being the weekend of the 9th and 10th, and I +was home virtually all of that weekend except Monday the 11th as I have +already described. + +The other being the following weekend, and I didn't see how he could +have--the weekend he was not out at my house, I didn't see how he could +have come out, taken the gun, gone away without my knowledge, and if +the gun had not been in that garage that weekend, I didn't see what the +purpose of his coming out the 21st of November was in the situation. + +And this is what I told Mr. Tackett of the Fort Worth Press. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you also tell Mr. Tackett in addition to, that his +reasons for his not engaging in rifle practice that weekend or any +other weekend was that he couldn't drive an automobile? + +Mrs. PAINE. Very probably. + +Mr. JENNER. And also that he couldn't have walked that far for rifle +practice? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. By that far I mean there is no place you can walk to +from my house, not only not to the firing range, but to an open enough +place where you could fire. It would be difficult to walk that far. + +Mr. JENNER. Where was the firing range at which it was suggested he +practiced? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't know exactly. It was in the Grand Prairie area, +just south of where we are located. But it would be a 15-minute car +drive I would expect. + +Mr. JENNER. From your home to the firing range. Do you know, did you +ever go to the firing range to see where it really was located? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I never did. + +Mr. JENNER. You are relying on the newspapers, are you? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. When you say thinking of its location you are thinking of +the general location of Grand Prairie, Tex. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Senator COOPER. Were you asked to give your opinion on that? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think so. + +Senator COOPER. Why would you submit that as your conclusion that he +could not have taken the rifle away, could not have got to a firing +range? + +Mrs. PAINE. The only thing--well--it had been reported in the press +that he had been seen at a firing range or someone said he had seen +him, Oswald, at a firing range on the weekend of the 9th, 10th, and the +following weekend and it seemed to me important to say what I could on +the subject if I had any contrary information, and I did any time the +reporters asked me about it. + +Senator COOPER. When you made a statement about the rifle, were you +considering the fact that he had left your house on the morning of the +21st before you got up? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't understand the question. + +Senator COOPER. The 22d, yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. Let me say in making such a statement to the Press, I was +not implying that I didn't think Oswald had taken a gun from my house +on the morning of the 22d. Now, you ask the question again and perhaps +I will understand it better. + +Senator COOPER. Were you referring to two weekends when he left your +house in saying that he couldn't take the gun or were you including +also the morning of the 22d? + +Mrs. PAINE. I was definitely not including the morning of the 22d. + +Mr. JENNER. May I proceed, Mr. Chairman. + +Senator COOPER. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know of any occasion when Lee and Marina did or +might have visited the welfare office of the Salvation Army on your +return from Dallas? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Having in mind all your contact with them during that +period, do you have an opinion as to whether that could have taken +place, that they did visit the Salvation Army Welfare Office? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was suggested that this was in the fall of the year? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't know of any time that they could have. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall in your discussion with Mr. Randle when the +matter of the Texas School Book Depository possible employment came up, +did you make a statement to Mrs. Randle suggesting that she not mention +to anyone that Marina was of Russian birth? + +Mrs. PAINE. After he had been hired I told Mrs. Randle that Lee was +worried about losing his job, and asked her if she would mention to +Wesley that he was worried about this, and would prefer for it not +to be talked about where he worked, that he had a Russian wife as +that would, therefore, bring up the subject of his having been in +Russia and, therefore, the subject of his having tried to change his +citizenship there, and she said to me oh, she was certain that Wesley +would not talk about it. + +Mr. JENNER. That was the extent of the conversation? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And its thrust, rather than the cryptic thrust I have given +it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you know a Frank Krystinik? + +Mrs. PAINE. I do. + +Mr. JENNER. He is an associate of your husband? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to say to him at any time that Lee +Oswald was not properly taking care of his wife and children? + +Mrs. PAINE. I could well have given him that impression or given him +that impression through Michael. I didn't very often see Frank. + +Mr. JENNER. But you could have made that remark to him? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You made similar remarks to others? + +Mrs. PAINE. Indeed, I have. + +Mr. JENNER. During the time you visited with your mother-in-law, Mrs. +Young, did you say to her that Lee wished his wife to return to Russia +alone? + +Mrs. PAINE. I very probably did. + +Mr. JENNER. And also that he did not wish his wife to learn to speak +English? + +Mrs. PAINE. I would judge that I did. + +Mr. JENNER. And that Marina did not wish to return to Russia? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Senator COOPER. While you are getting your papers together can I ask a +few questions? + +Mr. JENNER. Surely. + +Senator COOPER. I refer to November 22 when the police came and you and +Marina went into the garage with the police, you testified about that. +Then you discovered that there wasn't anything in the blanket. + +Now, at a later time, I believe you testified that the police showed +Marina a rifle and asked her if she could identify this rifle that she +had seen in Lee's possession. + +What did she say about it? + +Mrs. PAINE. She said that her husband's rifle had been a dark gun, +that she was not certain that that was the one. That she could not +absolutely recall whether there had been a telescopic sight on his gun +or not. + +Senator COOPER. Was she speaking in Russian? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Senator COOPER. Were you translating? + +Mrs. PAINE. No, Mr. Mamantov. + +Senator COOPER. Were you following what she said? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; indeed. + +Senator COOPER. How did she designate the sight? What words? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is a Russian word that sounded to me like binocular, as +I recall. + +Senator COOPER. Did she refer to it as a sighting device not in the +words sighting device, but did her language in substance as she +described it give reference to it as a sight on the rifle? + +Mrs. PAINE. My judgment is that Mr. Mamantov used the word in reference +to it first, you see, and then she simply used the same word. + +Asking her was she acquainted with this, and giving the word in +Russian, and she said she wasn't certain she had seen that binocular or +whatever the word used was on the gun. + +Senator COOPER. Now, at any time on the 22d, after she had admitted +that she had seen a rifle before, and in your talk with her, either on +the way into the police station or any other time, did she say anything +more about having seen the rifle before? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; she didn't. + +Senator COOPER. To you? What? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Senator COOPER. Did you know who brought Lee Oswald to your house from +Dallas when he would come for his visits? + +Mrs. PAINE. After he had gotten his job it was my understanding that he +came with Wesley Frazier. + +Senator COOPER. Did you ever hear him say that anyone else brought him +to your house? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't. + +Senator COOPER. Did he ever say that any fellow worker at the +Depository brought him to the house? + +Mrs. PAINE. Other than Wesley Frazier; no. + +Senator COOPER. Did he ever mention by name or any description any of +the people with whom he worked at the Depository? + +Mrs. PAINE. Except for Wesley; no. + +Senator COOPER. He never mentioned any one of his fellow workers, +associates there? + +Mrs. PAINE. None. + +Senator COOPER. Did he ever refer to them in any way as liking or +disliking them as a group or as individuals? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't. + +Senator COOPER. In your talks with him or in hearing him talk did he +ever refer to any persons who were friends of his or associates? + +Mrs. PAINE. I never heard him mention anyone. + +Senator COOPER. He never mentioned the name of any person? + +Mrs. PAINE. Not anyone. He mentioned a friend in Houston as I have +already testified, no name and I was wondering whether there was any +such friend, I recall that. That is absolutely the only reference I can +recall. + +Senator COOPER. You said that you told someone that Marina did not +agree with his political views? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Senator COOPER. How did you know that? + +Mrs. PAINE. She told me she wasn't interested in politics. She told me +indeed that Lee complained about her lack of interest. + +Senator COOPER. That is something different from saying that she didn't +agree with them. + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, she did say that she didn't like his having passed +out leaflets in New Orleans. This is still different from saying she +disagreed, though. But that is the most I can say. + +Senator COOPER. Did she ever tell her what her political views were, if +any? + +Mrs. PAINE. She said she didn't consider herself a person interested in +politics. She---- + +Senator COOPER. Did she ever refer to Lee being a Marxist or a +Communist? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall such a reference ever. + +Senator COOPER. Did she ever tell you whether or not she was a Marxist +or a Communist? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. I assumed she was not either. + +Senator COOPER. What? + +Mrs. PAINE. I assumed she was not either. She did at one point poke fun +at the Party faithful who attended a Young Communist meeting in Minsk, +whom she considered a dull lot and the meetings quite dull. + +Senator COOPER. I missed the early part of your testimony so you +may have testified to this, but I thought that I recalled that you +did answer a question addressed to you by someone, a member of the +Commission or counsel, in which you said that you were attracted to the +Oswalds when you first met them, one, because you wanted to perfect +your own Russian, and did you say, too, that you were interested +because of the fact that he had been a defector and had returned and it +was an unusual circumstance which interested you? + +Mrs. PAINE. It made him an odd person. + +Senator COOPER. What? + +Mrs. PAINE. It made him an odd person. I was interested in the curious +sense of what could have motivated him to do this. + +Senator COOPER. Having that interest, didn't you ever talk to him about +it, inquire about his experience? + +Mrs. PAINE. I guess I wasn't interested enough. + +Senator COOPER. What led him to do it? + +Mrs. PAINE. And as I have already testified he always wanted to speak +Russian to me, which shortens my tongue. I can't say as much or raise +as many questions. + +Senator COOPER. Well, did you try to search out the reasons for his +defection and the reasons for returning? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't. + +Senator COOPER. And his political views, his economic views, that kind +of thing? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I regret now that I didn't take any interest, but I did +not. + +Senator COOPER. You said that, in answer to counsel that, you either +did tell people or probably told them that you believed Lee Oswald was +a Communist. + +Mrs. PAINE. It is my impression I spoke of him as he spoke of himself +as a Marxist. + +Senator COOPER. And you think, you believe, that has some relationship +to communism? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh; yes. + +Senator COOPER. I think you have stated that you didn't believe it was +necessary for a person to actually be a member of the Communist Party +to be a Communist in his views? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But that I considered it something less than actually +accurate to call such a person a Communist that went on being---- + +Senator COOPER. Other than the persons you have named in your testimony +as having come to your house, was there anyone else who ever came to +your house, who talked to Lee Oswald or Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. I recall no one other than the people I have mentioned, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Knowing that he was as you have described in your own +words, a Marxist, were you concerned at all about that or worried about +that, as being in your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, as I have described in testimony, I asked myself +whether or not he might be a spy. I was not at all worried about +ideology contrary to my own or with which I disagreed, and it looked to +me that he was a person of this ideology or philosophy which he calls +Marxism, indeed nearly a religion. + +But not that he was in any way dangerous because of these beliefs. + +Senator COOPER. Thinking now and then that he might be a spy or in the +employ of the Soviet Union, were you concerned about the fact that such +person who might be a spy or an agent of the Soviet Union was living in +your house? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, if you recall my testimony I concluded that he was +not, and also I was pleased that the FBI had come and I felt that they +would worry about that, and that I didn't need to worry about any risk +to me of public censure for my befriending such a person. + +Senator COOPER. You told about the newspapers and periodicals that he +received and read. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Senator COOPER. Did he also have any books that he read while he was at +your house? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall his reading books while he was at my house. +He watched television a great deal but I don't recall his reading books. + +Senator COOPER. You said that he did not have very ample means, +financial means. + +Were you struck with the fact that he was able to have these newspapers +sent to him from Russia, England, New York? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I observed---- + +Senator COOPER. The Communist Worker comes from New York. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, nothing from England, I recall, but he certainly +considered these valuable. He was willing to spend money on these, I +observed that, yes. It was rather unusual or unlike the rest of his +behavior in that he did spend money for these periodicals. + +Senator COOPER. Did you ever lend any money to either Marina or Lee +Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Senator COOPER. What? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever give them any money? + +Mrs. PAINE. Cash money; no. + +Senator COOPER. What? + +Mrs. PAINE. Cash; no. + +Of course, I bought groceries but that is not what you are asking. + +Senator COOPER. You gave no money in the sense that you turned over +physical possession of it? + +Mrs. PAINE. I did not. + +Senator COOPER. To either Lee or Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; not at any time to either one. + +Senator COOPER. You did help them in the sense that you provided a home +for Marina and on occasion provided food for Lee? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Senator COOPER. I have just one or two more. + +You said at one time you came to the conclusion that he wasn't an agent +or spy because you didn't think he was intelligent enough. + +I believe you said that. + +Mrs. PAINE. That and the fact that as far as I could see had no +contacts or any means of getting any information that would have been +of any interest to the Soviet Union. + +Senator COOPER. Yet he was intelligent enough that he had learned to +speak Russian. + +Mrs. PAINE. His Russian was poor. His vocabulary was large, his grammar +never was good. + +Senator COOPER. You said that he had, I believe, had the initiative to +go to Russia, not as a tourist but as for reasons that he had developed +himself, and that he came back when he made up his mind to come and was +able to bring his wife. + +You knew he moved around rather quickly, didn't you? He was in New +Orleans---- + +Mrs. PAINE. In this country? + +Senator COOPER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. No, I knew he had been in Fort Worth and had come to Dallas +to seek work and then losing work had gone back to New Orleans and then +back to Dallas. + +Senator COOPER. What made you willing to have this man, you have said, +this very curious man, from all you have described about him, to have +him in your house? + +Mrs. PAINE. He was Marina's husband and I like her, and I, as I have +described, was both lonely and interested in learning the Russian +language. I would have been happy had he never come out, indeed happier +had he not come out on the weekends. + +But they were not separated as a married couple nor contemplating such +separation, and I didn't feel that this--it was appropriate for him to +have to stay away. I did not ask that. + +Senator COOPER. Prior to the time that Marina left your home--the day +of the assassination, wasn't it? + +Mrs. PAINE. She left the next day. + +Senator COOPER. The next day. + +Had you and Marina ever had any disputes or quarrels between yourselves? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have referred to just one time when she in a sense was +taking me to task on the matter of whose property their address was, I +just mentioned that, that is the only time I recall. + +Mr. JENNER. That is the incident in which you---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Following the November 5th meeting with Mr. Hosty. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Hosty. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Senator COOPER. You had said that, I believe you said, prior to the +assassination you considered Lee Oswald as being violent or dangerous? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, now I have said that the thought crossed my mind once +in relation to myself. + +Senator COOPER. What caused that? + +Mrs. PAINE. That he might be violent, because I thought he might resent +my stepping in to do for his wife what he was not doing. + +Senator COOPER. What made you think he would be violent about it if he +wasn't caring about taking care of her? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I wanted to satisfy myself, and I did then. The +thought crossed my mind before I went to New Orleans for the second +time as I have referred to it in a conversation with Mr. Rainey, before +I went to New Orleans and then seeing him and changing my opinion some +about him, I felt that he would not be violent or angry with me for +this offer, and then proceeded with it, and this is the only---- + +Senator COOPER. I can understand why a person might be angry about +something. But what about him led you to believe that he might be +violent? + +Mrs. PAINE. There was nothing that I could put my finger on. On the +contrary my general impression was not of a man who would break out in +sudden marked violence. He argued with his wife, and was distinctly +unpleasant with her. + +Senator COOPER. I believe you said the other day in answer to a +question by Congressman Boggs that you held the opinion now that he did +fire the rifle at the President. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe that is so but I don't know. + +Senator COOPER. From this vantage point, is there anything about him +now which you think of which seems consistent with the fact that he, +that you believe he did shoot the President, President Kennedy? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, what has led me to the conclusion that he did shoot +President Kennedy is the massive circumstantial evidence that surrounds +his relationship or where he was, what he had at the time of the +assassination. Perhaps we should get into the matter of motive. + +Senator COOPER. In other words, a person's personality, is there +anything you can think of now which would change your mind or change +the viewpoint that you held previously that he wasn't violent? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I still can recall no incident that I saw, nothing or +thought at the time, with this small exception of the one reference to +Mrs. Rainey that--and that was a conjecture in reference to myself. +Nothing that violent or indeed that insane. + +Senator COOPER. Was it your opinion that Mrs. Oswald was shaken by the +assassination and by the fact that her husband was charged with it? + +Mrs. PAINE. She was certainly shaken on the afternoon when the +policemen were out there, when he was at that time just charged with +the shooting of Tippit. I never saw her after he was charged with the +shooting of the President. + +Senator COOPER. One other question: I think you said when Marguerite +Oswald, Lee Oswald's mother, came to your house, and the Life people +later appeared, you spoke of that, did you say that both of them, both +Marina and Marguerite, seemed to be interested in making some kind of a +deal with Life in order to get money? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Senator COOPER. Or were you speaking only of Marguerite Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. I was speaking only of Marguerite Oswald. I could add +here that Marina appeared to me to want to be courteous and polite +toward her mother-in-law, and wished to go along with whatever wishes +Marguerite had on the subject. + +Senator COOPER. Has anyone tried to make any kind of a business +transaction for your statement or story? + +Mrs. PAINE. At that time or since? + +Senator COOPER. Since. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Senator COOPER. What? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The Commission has a copy of an article that was +written for Look which was not published and will not be. + +Senator COOPER. Has that been testified? + +Mr. JENNER. Will not be what? + +Mrs. PAINE. Published. It is now my property and I don't plan to, I +have no plans presently, at least. + +Senator COOPER. Just for the record, have you entered into any kind of +business transaction by which you would be paid for a story about this +assassination? + +Mrs. PAINE. I will not be paid for any story I write, and I am certain +now I don't want to write any such story. I have, however, worked with +Miss Jessamyn West, who is an author for an article which will appear +in Time and Red Book magazine, or I expect it will. She is writing +that, she talked to me. + +Mr. JENNER. She approached you on that article? + +Mrs. PAINE. No one approached me in that article. Was already decided +before I was asked. But that is---- + +Mr. JENNER. Who decided it? + +Mrs. PAINE. I had implied that I would be willing to do this, but not +to anyone I thought was making an offer. This is aside. + +Mr. JENNER. This was an offer to help the subject of the interview +being interviewed? + +Mrs. PAINE. All I really should say in clarification here is that there +was bad communication between Red Book, Miss West and myself, and she +was under the impression that I had agreed to do this before she had +in fact been contacted, but then the fact of Red Book and Miss West +thinking that this was something I had agreed to I then did agree to do +it. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Senator COOPER. Back on the record. + +Have you been paid or promised any monetary consideration for any +article that you might write or you might assist someone else in +writing about your experiences connected with the Oswalds? + +Mrs. PAINE. The complete answer to that would be that I received a $300 +advance from Look magazine for helping in the writing of that article +which will not appear, and that I have been told I will receive $500 +from Red Book magazine for helping Miss West in writing that, and if +you want, I will tell you what I think about what I want to do with +this money but perhaps that is not pertinent. + +Senator COOPER. If you want to? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I plan to give it away. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean give it to charity? + +Mrs. PAINE. To charity. + +Senator COOPER. That is all I have. + +Mr. JENNER. You have referred to a Look magazine article in the +preparation of which you have assisted. I have marked as Commission +Exhibit No. 460 a document which I received from Mr. George Harris, +after you had authorized me to call him and ask for it. + +Would you glance through that and verify that that is the article in +the final form? + +You have examined Commission Exhibit 460. Is that the Look article to +which you have made reference in your testimony here this afternoon? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And that article, however, is not one to be published? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you look over that article in this final form and +approve it as to text and statements made in it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; although I don't think the final draft had been done +or final approval given before it was decided that it would not be used. + +Mr. JENNER. But as this exhibit stands, Commission Exhibit No. 460, the +text and statements that are made in there had your approval? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they are, of course, not all of my words. + +Mr. JENNER. Of course, not. The article was written by? + +Mrs. PAINE. By George Harris, who is a senior editor on Look magazine, +and he wrote it from typed copy he had directly as he had taken it from +my telling. + +Mr. JENNER. So it is, to use somewhat of a vernacular, it is ghost +written? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is ghost written but most of it is my words. + +Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence, as Commission Exhibit No. 460, the +document we have just identified. + +Senator COOPER. It will be received in evidence. + +(The document referred to, heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit +No. 460, was received in evidence.) + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have an interest in the Russian language as has +appeared from your testimony? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, are you now or have you ever been a member of +the Communist Party? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am not now and have never been a member of the Communist +Party. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you now or have you ever had any leanings which we might +call Communist Party leanings. + +Mrs. PAINE. No; on the contrary. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you now or have you ever been a member of any groups +which you consciously recognize as being, let us say, Communist front +groups? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I have not and I would be quite certain I had not been +unconsciously a member of any such groups. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it from your response that you have an aversion to +communism? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. And would be at pains and have been at pains during your +adult life, at least, to avoid any association with or any advancement +of communism as we know and abhor it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is right. + +If I may say here, I am offended by the portion of the Communist +doctrine that thinks violence is necessary to achieve its aims. I am +likewise offended by the doctrine that any means to what is considered +a good end is legitimate. + +I, on the contrary, feel that there is no justification at any time for +deception, and the Communists, as I have observed their activity, have +no reluctance to deceive, and this offends me seriously. + +Mr. JENNER. In that thinking, violence also impels you against the +Communist faith? + +Mrs. PAINE. It certainly does. + +Mr. JENNER. Or political doctrine? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; their espousal of violence repels me. + +Mr. JENNER. You have an interest in the Russian language? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, the members of the Commission, all of them are +interested in how you came to have your interest in the Russian +language, and they would like to have you indicate when it first arose +and under what circumstances and what impelled you to have an interest +in the Russian language; start from the very beginning of your life in +that connection--that episode in your life? + +Mrs. PAINE. All right. To be really the very beginning I will start and +say I have been interested in other languages before being interested +in Russian. I studied French in high school, German in college, and got +a tutor to study Yiddish when I was working with a group that spoke +that language. + +Mr. JENNER. That is the Golden Age group of the Young---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Men and Young Women---- + +Mr. JENNER. Hebrew Association in Philadelphia? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. At that time you were employed by? + +Mrs. PAINE. That organization. + +Mr. JENNER. By that organization. And were you doing work in connection +with this plan of Antioch College? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; that was after I had completed my work at Antioch. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I do believe I did get some credit for that year at +Antioch although I had completed my academic work, I was still getting +some credit for my job credit, that is. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, proceed. + +Mrs. PAINE. And then I was working with a group of young Quakers, had +been indeed for sometime. + +Mr. JENNER. Please fix a little more definite time, please? + +Mrs. PAINE. I began my interest in young Quakers in 1947. + +Mr. JENNER. In 1947? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. As quite a young girl? + +Mrs. PAINE. When my interest also began in the Quaker church. + +Mr. JENNER. You were then what, you were 19 years old? + +Mrs. PAINE. I was going on 15, as a matter of fact. + +Mr. JENNER. Going on 15? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. You were going to high school? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Where were you living then? + +Mrs. PAINE. I was living in Columbus, Ohio. + +Mr. JENNER. And you became interested in the Quaker faith then or at +least in the Quaker activity? + +Mrs. PAINE. Both. + +Mr. JENNER. And were you a member of the Friends Society, young +people's society in Columbus at that time? + +Mrs. PAINE. I attended the meeting which is the Quaker church in +Columbus. They didn't have enough young people to have a society in +that particular meeting. But then in college I became active in the +national young Friends group. + +Mr. JENNER. What is the official name of that? + +Mrs. PAINE. The name at that time was the Young Friends Committee of +North America. It included Canada young Friends. And in this connection +I was, I served, as Chairman or Conference Coordinator for a conference +of young friends that was held in 1955. + +Mr. JENNER. Where? + +Mrs. PAINE. At Quaker Haven, Ind. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you attend that? + +Mrs. PAINE. I did. It was at this conference, toward the latter +part, part of really arising out of a discussion of the need for +communication and more of it between the United States and the Soviet +Union by no means the bulk of the business of this conference, but a +small committee of interested people, was working on this matter. + +Mr. JENNER. Are these interested young people? + +Mrs. PAINE. These are all young Friends. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were then of what age, 1955. 23? + +Senator COOPER. 9 years ago? + +Mrs. PAINE. 22, going on 23, that is right. + +Mr. JENNER. 22 going on 23. Was this in the summer time? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Vacation period? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. By the way, Mrs. Paine, you had been to England, had +you not, in some activity of the Friends Society back in 1952? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. That was what meeting did you attend, and as a delegate of +what? + +Mrs. PAINE. I was selected as a delegate of the Lake Erie Association +which is the larger group to which my meeting in Columbus belonged. + +Mr. JENNER. Your Quaker meeting? + +Mrs. PAINE. My Quaker meeting. To go as a delegate to the Friends world +conference held at Oxford, England, in the summer of 1952. I also +attended a young Friends conference held in Reading, England, just +before the larger conference. Shall I return now to the conference at +Quaker Haven in 1955? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. I felt a calling in Friends terminology at that conference. + +Mr. JENNER. An impulse, a desire, is that what you mean, a pulling? + +Mrs. PAINE. More than that, that God asked of me that I study language, +and I can't say that it was specifically said what language. This was +at the time that plans first began for encouraging an exchange of +young people between the Soviet Union and the United States, and I +became active with the committee planning that, and from that planning +there was an exchange, three Soviet young people came to this country +and four young Quakers went to the Soviet Union, and I was very much +impressed with the dearth of people in this country who could speak +Russian. Here was a need for communication with people we had to live +with, although we disagreed with them, certainly disagreed with the +government, and the first elements of communication, the language, was +not available among most young people, and even among older people in +the country. My letter of June 18, 1959, marked Commission Exhibit +No. 459-1 contains a statement of my motivation to study Russian. So +it was this really that started me upon a course of study in Russian. +Then once started, I was more propelled by my interest in the language +itself. Shall I describe what training I have had? + +Mr. JENNER. Well, please. I want to cover something else before that. I +offer Commission Exhibit No. 459-1 in evidence. + +The CHAIRMAN. It is received. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there a movement also in this connection which you are +now describing of a pen pal communication between young people here in +America and young people in Russia? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have anything to do with that? + +Mrs. PAINE. There was a subcommittee of this Young Friends Committee of +North America which was called East-West Contact Committee. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you the leader of that committee? + +Mrs. PAINE. I was not. But I was chairman of a committee of that +committee, which was called Correspondence, and I helped make contact +between young people in this country who wished to write to someone in +the Soviet Union, and an organization of young people in Moscow which +found pen pals for these young Americans. + +We particularly wanted to go through an official organization so as to +be certain we were not endangering or putting suspicion upon anyone, +any young person in the Soviet Union to whom we were writing. We felt +if they picked their own people that would lessen the suspicion of the +Soviet person. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you active in that group? + +Mrs. PAINE. I was chairman of that for sometime. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you take part in the pen pal correspondence yourself? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. And do you recall now the names of the Russian young +people or Russian young person with whom you communicate, or sought +communication? + +Mrs. PAINE. I recall I wrote a few letters to a person named Ella, +I have forgotten her last name, and I don't believe I have the +correspondence still. If I did, I don't any more. + +Mr. JENNER. If you once had it? + +Mrs. PAINE. If I once had it, I don't have it now in my possession, and +then that stopped because she stopped writing. I wrote and got another +correspondent whose name is Nina Aparina, with whom I corresponded up +to last spring, I would say, and I haven't--yes; and I haven't heard +anything from her for about a year. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the nature of the correspondence, particularly +with respect to subject matter? + +Mrs. PAINE. We discussed? + +Mr. JENNER. In this letter period? + +Mrs. PAINE. We discussed our mutual interest in language. She was a +teacher of the English language. She married an engineer during the +time of our correspondence. + +Mr. JENNER. Russian? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; of course. + +Mr. JENNER. Russian citizen? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. We exchanged a magnetic tape recording one time. I +sent her one and she sent one with music and readings, hers were music +and readings in Russian, and mine was similar in English as part of +language study aid. + +My last communication said she was expecting a baby last June but I +haven't heard anything from her since that communication, as I say, +probably a year ago that came. + +Mr. JENNER. Now all of your activity, this activity, of correspondence +between you and any citizen in Russia, was part of it, originated in +the Young Friends group, an activity to supply here a meeting with, +communication by, Americans with citizens in Russia, and then latterly +in your communication with the lady you have last mentioned, a mutual +exchange between the two of you here to improve her English and you to +improve your Russian? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. The committee was formed much the same +time that our State Department made arrangements with the Soviets +for cultural exchange, and I think our purposes were similar but, of +course, outside the government. + +Mr. JENNER. Now the three Russian students who came over here, did you +have any contact with them? + +Mrs. PAINE. I met them once at an open meeting in North Philadelphia. + +Mr. JENNER. Were a number of other people present? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And that is the only contact you had with them? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Proceed. + +Mrs. PAINE. Except that I read a book that was written by one of these +students nearly a year after he had gone back to the Soviet Union +which I found most disillusioning, I must say, in which it was pure +propaganda. + +Mr. JENNER. He sought to report what his experiences here were in +America? + +Mrs. PAINE. He sought to report on this trip that he had taken, that we +had worked to achieve. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you regard him as fair or accurate, that is, what you +read? + +Mrs. PAINE. What I read of the book he wrote was extremely inaccurate +and unfair. + +Mr. JENNER. Did it misrepresent America as you knew it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Misrepresented America, certainly. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mrs. PAINE. Shall I go on now to what I have studied? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. Have you had any formal education in the study of the +Russian language? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. I attended a concentrated summer course at +the University of Pennsylvania in the summer of 1957 where, during the +course of 6 weeks, we completed a first year college Russian text. + +Mr. JENNER. What year did you say that was? + +Mrs. PAINE. I believe that was 1957. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mrs. PAINE. And then I had difficulty keeping that up, keeping Russian +up over the next year, but the following year I was no longer teaching +and took a course at Berlitz School of Languages in Philadelphia in +Russian, and improved my ability to converse, and it helped me to +recall what I had gone through rather too fast in this accelerated +course. + +I then applied for the summer course at the Middlebury College summer +language school in Middlebury, Vt., in the summer of 1959 and attended +that 7-week course. At Middlebury they required that you speak nothing +but the language you are studying the entire time, both in class and +out. This was very valuable though very difficult. + +Mr. JENNER. Who was your instructor? + +Mrs. PAINE. There? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. I took three courses. Natalie Yershov. + +Mr. JENNER. You were relating, Mrs. Paine, you recalled one of your +instructors at Middlebury? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the name of any other? + +Mrs. PAINE. Offhand I can't recall. I recall certainly the director of +the school but he was not an instructor of mine. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have a roommate? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your roommate's name? + +Mrs. PAINE. Her name was Helen Mamikonian. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you still have contact with her? + +Mrs. PAINE. It has been a long time since I have written but we have +exchanged Christmas cards. + +Mr. JENNER. Christmas cards and an occasional letter? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Where does she live? + +Mrs. PAINE. She lives and works in Boston where she is a teacher of +Russian language at Simmons College, as I recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she at one time live in New York City? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; her home is New York. She spent her high school years +there after having immigrated from France, and I believe her mother +still lives there, is a tutor for the Berlitz School in Russian in New +York. + +Mr. JENNER. Her mother is? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Now we have your study at Pennsylvania, University of Pennsylvania, and +your study at the Berlitz School in Philadelphia, was it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And your study at Middlebury College. What additional +formal or at least let us say semiformal instruction or education have +you had in the Russian language? + +Mrs. PAINE. I then moved to the Dallas area to the place where I +presently live in Irving, and then I would guess it was early in 1960 +I took up some study again at the Berlitz School in Dallas, completed +a course which I had paid for in Philadelphia, and then went on after +that with private lessons with Mrs. Gravitis, who has already been +mentioned. + +Mr. JENNER. Is Mrs. Gravitis also an instructor in the Berlitz School +in Dallas? + +Mrs. PAINE. I met her because she was an instructor for a short time +there and I think is yet on call to them as an instructor. + +Mr. JENNER. Does that cover your formal education in the Russian +language? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it does. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, are you a teacher of Russian? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have one student whom I teach beginning Russian. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that a connection with an established institution? + +Mrs. PAINE. It began in connection with an established institution +during the summer of 1963, at the Saint Marks School of Texas in +Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were the teacher of Russian in the Saint Marks +School during that quarter or summer term? + +Mrs. PAINE. Summer term. + +Mr. JENNER. And arising out of that has been your engagement as a +tutor, is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Who is your student? + +Mrs. PAINE. My student's name is Bill H-U-T-K-I-N-S. + +Mr. JENNER. Is he, what is he, a young man? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am sorry, it is H-O-O-T-K-I-N-S. + +Mr. JENNER. How old is he? + +Mrs. PAINE. He turned 15 in the summer. + +Mr. JENNER. Is he a native American so far as you know? + +Mrs. PAINE. As far as I know, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it your--has it been also your desired objective on your +part to teach Russian as a regular instructor or teacher in the public +or private schools? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I would like to do that. + +Mr. JENNER. That is still your hope and desire? + +Mrs. PAINE. It interests me very much. + +Mr. JENNER. And it has been for sometime an objective of yours, has it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I will ask you a couple of general questions. First, I will +probably repeat this when I examine you in your deposition also, Mrs. +Paine, but I desire to have it on this record before the Commission, +is there anything that has come to your mind that you would like to +relate to the Commission which you think might be helpful to it in its +deliberations in consideration of the serious problems and events into +which they are inquiring? + +Mrs. PAINE. There are a few small items I hope we will get into +tomorrow. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you please state them as to subject matter, at least. +Would they take very long for you to state? + +Mrs. PAINE. I will make an attempt to be brief here. I recall that Lee +once used my typewriter to type something else beside this note, is +that what you want? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; would you turn and direct your remarks to the +Chairman, to Senator Cooper, so we can all hear you and you might speak +up a little bit, your voice has been dropping. + +Mrs. PAINE. I am tired. + +I recall that Lee once asked to borrow my typewriter and used it to +type something I judged was a letter at sometime prior to this day +November 9, when he typed a letter which we have a rough draft. This is +probably no use to you. + +Mr. JENNER. That is what I call the Mexico letter? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is what you call it, all right. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Give the exhibit. + +Mrs. PAINE. It is Exhibit No. 103. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you. + +Mrs. PAINE. I want to know whether you want to inquire of me my account +of Secret Service agents having come and asked me, having come out +to the house after the assassination to ask me if I had ever seen a +particular note which they had. And I have later assumed that this is +what has been referred to in the press as the note written by Oswald at +the time of the attempt on Walker and if you want I will make it clear +all I know in relation to that. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; I recall that incident and I wish you would, please. + +Mrs. PAINE. And then the other thing is simply to invite the members +of the Commission, but if it is a deposition I can't do that then, to +feel free to ask me any questions that are not settled in their mind +or clear regarding the separation which existed between myself and my +husband, if that is troublesome in any way or if there is anything in +which---- + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, if that doesn't embarrass you, members of the +Commission have voiced to me some interest in that, that is an interest +only to the extent they are seeking to resolve in their mind who Ruth +Paine is and if I may use the vernacular, what makes her tick, so would +you relate that now on the Commission record, please? + +Mrs. PAINE. All right. I might say that I think it is important and +relevant here because if I had not been separated from my husband I +would have not as I think I have already testified, made an invitation +to anyone to join the family circle, especially in such a small house. + +Really, I might ask if you have questions it might be easier for me to +answer them. + +Mr. JENNER. Perhaps we can bring it along in this fashion. What was the +cause of the separation between your husband and yourself, in your view? + +Mrs. PAINE. In my view, of course, yes. He expressed himself as not +really interested in remaining married to me. We never quarreled. We +never indeed have had any serious difference of opinion except I want +to live with him and he is not that interested in being with me, would +be our single difference of opinion. + +And in the spring of 1962 I felt that something more definite should +be done, and asked Michael why he continued to live with me if he felt +that way about it, and he said that it was easier and cost less, and I +said that wasn't a good enough reason for a marriage, and asked him to +be out of the house in the fall when I returned from summer vacation +that year. + +Mr. JENNER. That was 1962? + +Mrs. PAINE. 1962, yes. I would say our marriage is marked both by +mutual honesty, that is exceptional, and by a lack of overt or +interior strife except that it hasn't quite come together as a mutual +partnership. + +My mother recently said to me that "If you would just look only at what +Michael does there is nothing wrong with your marriage at all. It is +just what he says", and I concur with her opinion on that, that he is +so scrupulously honest with his own feelings that, and really too hard +on himself in a sense, that he states verbally this is not feeling that +he loves me or loves me enough, but in fact his actions toward me are +totally acceptable to me. + +Mr. JENNER. Is he gracious and kind and attentive to you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Has he always been? + +Mrs. PAINE. Insufficiently attentive, I would say, but he is always +kind and thoughtful. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you had any financial differences of opinion? + +Mrs. PAINE. We have not. + +Mr. JENNER. He even during this period of time when you were separated, +he voluntarily supported the household and you lived in a manner and +style that suited you or to which you had become accustomed? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, that is right. + +Mr. JENNER. You had no arguments about matters of that nature? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Your husband has returned to your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. He is living there now. + +Mr. JENNER. How long has that been? + +Mrs. PAINE. He has been staying there since the night of November 22. +He didn't move his belongings in until the middle of the following week. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you say this is a reconciliation? + +Mrs. PAINE. I can't say that. + +Mr. JENNER. You cannot. + +Do you wish to say any more in the statement of yours? + +Mrs. PAINE. Not unless you have questions. I think it is an accurate +statement of the marriage. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +What brought this forth was my asking you if you had anything you would +like to bring before the Commission. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Are there any others? + +Mrs. PAINE. I can think of nothing else. + +Mr. JENNER. To the best of your present recollection are the statements +and the testimony you gave, you have given so far, before the +Commission consistent with statements you have given to the FBI, to +Secret Service, to magazine reporters, editors, to anyone? + +Mrs. PAINE. The statements I have given here are fully consistent with +anything I have said before except that the statement here has been +much fuller than any single previous statement. + +Mr. JENNER. And you have testified to matters and things before the +Commission about which, which you did not relate or even had occasion +to relate in your mind, at least, to FBI agents, to Secret Service +agents and to the others that you have identified in general terms? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you and I had the opportunity, you afforded me +the privilege of speaking with you before your testimony commenced, +before the Commission. And also I think the first day of your testimony +you were gracious enough to return here to the Commission room and we +spent several hours talking? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. As a matter of fact, we left around 12:30, a quarter of one +in the morning, did we not? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, that is right, we did. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, recalling back to those periods of conferences +with me, do you have any feeling or notion whatsoever that any of +your testimony before the Commission was in any degree whatsoever, +inconsistent with anything you related to me? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no; I don't think so, not in any way. + +Mr. JENNER. Not in any way. Do you have any feeling whatsoever that +during the course of my conferences with you, outside this Commission, +that I influenced or sought to shape your testimony in any respect? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. Clearly I felt no influence from you. + +Mr. JENNER. All of the statements that you related to me were free and +voluntary on your part, and not given under any coercion, light or +heavy, as the case might be, on my part. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, there are some additional matters we wish +to examine the witness about and Representative Ford has given me a +rather long list of questions he asked me to cover. He regretted that +was necessary because of his enforced absence, and Mrs. Paine has +agreed that she would be available in the morning, and I may examine +her by way of deposition before a reporter under oath, and with that +understanding of the Commission, of you, Mr. Chairman, I would at this +moment as far as the staff is concerned, close the formal testimony +of Mrs. Paine before the Commission, with advice to you, sir, that +tomorrow morning I will cover additional matters by way of deposition. + +Senator COOPER. As I understand the matters you will go into by +deposition will not be any new evidence in the sense of substance but +more to---- + +Mr. JENNER. I can tell you what they are, it will be her background, +some of which she has now given in regard to her study of the Russian +language. + +More formal proof of her calendar, and her address book. Also her +general background which I have already mentioned. Some correspondence +between herself and her mother, and the items that Mrs. Paine has now +mentioned she would like to relate herself. + +Mrs. PAINE. One of which we took care of already. + +Mr. JENNER. One of which we took care of. We will cover those and I +was going to ask her questions tomorrow, some of which we have already +covered of Lee Harvey Oswald's personality and habits and actions. + +I am going to ask here about Mrs. Shirley Martin, who has appeared on +the scene since the assassination, and appears to be a self-appointed +investigator, and to the extent that there has been any contact between +Mrs. Paine and Mrs. Shirley Martin, and then inquire, I may not even do +this because we have covered a very great deal of the conversations and +discussions between Marina and Mrs. Paine on various possible subjects, +and I can see from my list we have covered many of them already. + +Senator COOPER. Let it be ordered that evidence will be taken this way, +with this reservation, of course, if the Commission determines after +studying the deposition that it would be necessary for her to be called +again, you would be willing to come again before the Commission to +testify. + +Mrs. PAINE. I would certainly be willing if there is any need for my +coming. + +Mr. JENNER. In addition to this, Mr. Chairman, as I think already +appears of record, I will come to Mrs. Paine's home in Irving, +Tex., sometime on Monday or Monday evening or if she finds it more +convenient, on Tuesday of next week to inquire of her with a court +reporter present relative to the curtain rod package, and I also will +make a tour of her home and as we move about her home the reporter will +record the conversation between us, questions and answers. + +Senator COOPER. Are there any further questions? + +Mr. JENNER. That is all. Thank you, sir. + +Senator COOPER. All right, then we will stand in recess subject to the +call of the Chairman of the Commission. + +(Translations of letters introduced in evidence in the course of Mrs. +Paine's testimony are reproduced in the exhibit volumes.) + + + + +_Tuesday, March 24, 1964_ + +TESTIMONY OF HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN, BONNIE RAY WILLIAMS, HAROLD NORMAN, +JAMES JARMAN, JR., AND ROY SANSOM TRULY + +The President's Commission met at 9 a.m., on March 24, 1964, at 200 +Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. + +Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Gerald +R. Ford, John J. McCloy, and Allen W. Dulles, members. + +Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Joseph A. Ball, +assistant counsel; David W. Belin, assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, +assistant counsel; and Charles Murray, observer. + + +TESTIMONY OF HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN + +The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will come to order. + +Mr. Brennan, in keeping with our statements, so you will know just what +the purpose of the session is, I will read a little statement to you. + +The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Howard +Leslie Brennan, Bonnie Ray Williams, James Jarman, Jr., Harold Norman, +Roy S. Truly. + +These witnesses were all in the vicinity of the Texas School Book +Depository Building at the time of the assassination of President +John F. Kennedy. They will be asked to provide the Commission with +their knowledge of the facts concerning the assassination of President +Kennedy. + +Would you please rise and be sworn? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this +Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I do. + +The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated, Mr. Brennan. + +Mr. Belin will conduct the interrogation. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, will you state your name for the record, please? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Howard Leslie Brennan. + +Mr. BELIN. Where do you live? + +Mr. BRENNAN. 6814 Woodward, Dallas 27. + +Mr. BELIN. And how old a man are you? + +Mr. BRENNAN. 45. + +Mr. BELIN. Are you married? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Family? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Two children. One grandson. + +Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation, Mr. Brennan? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Steamfitter. + +Mr. BELIN. And for whom are you employed, or by whom are you employed? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Wallace and Beard. + +Mr. BELIN. Is that a construction company? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. And let me ask you this: How long have you been a +steamfitter? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Since 1943, I believe. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you work for one employer, or do you go from job to job? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I go from job to job. + +Mr. BELIN. Is that at your direction or at the direction of any union? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Local 100 in Dallas. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, where were you on the early part of the +afternoon of November 22, 1963, say around noon or so? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I left a position behind the Book Store, which is a leased +part of Katy Yards, which we have fabrication for pipe for the Republic +Bank Building. At 12 o'clock I went to the cafeteria on the corner of +Main and Record. I believe that is it. + +Mr. BELIN. That would be at Main and Record Streets in Dallas? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. And did you have your lunch there? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. And then after lunch, where did you go? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I finished lunch and I glanced at a clock--I don't know +exactly where the clock is located--and noticed it was 12:18. So I +thought I still had a few minutes, that I might see the parade and the +President. + +I walked to the corner of Houston and Elm. + +Mr. BELIN. What route did you take to get to Houston and Elm? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I went west on Main. + +Mr. BELIN. You went west on Main from Record Street to---- + +Mr. BRENNAN. Houston. + +Mr. BELIN. Houston + +Mr. BRENNAN. And on the east side of Houston, I walked to Elm. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. BRENNAN. Crossed the street to the southwest corner of Houston and +Elm. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you have any estimate about how long it took you to get +there? + +Mr. BRENNAN. A possibility I would say more or less 4 minutes. + +Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do when you got to the southwest +corner of Houston and Elm? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I stayed around a couple of minutes. There was a man +having an epileptic fit, a possibility of 20 yards east--south of this +corner. And they were being attended by some civilians and officers, +and I believe an ambulance picked him up. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. BRENNAN. And I walked over to this retainer wall of this little +park pool and jumped up on the top ledge. + +Mr. BELIN. You jumped up on the retaining wall? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, I hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 477. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 477 for +identification.) + +Mr. BELIN. I ask you to state if you know what this is. + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Will you please tell the Commission what this is? + +Mr. BRENNAN. That is the Book Store at the corner of Houston and Elm. + +Mr. BELIN. By the Book Store, you mean the Texas School Book Depository +Building? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, do you know what---- + +Mr. BRENNAN. That is the retainer wall which I perched on. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. This is the retaining wall on which you perched. +I believe that this is actually you sitting on this retaining wall in +a picture that we took in Dallas pursuant to your showing us where you +were November 22; we took that picture on this past Friday. + +Mr. BRENNAN. That is correct. + +Mr. BELIN. Which would be the 20th of March. Is that correct? + +Mr. BRENNAN. That is correct. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. I hand you now what the reporter has marked as +Commission Exhibit 478. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 478 for +identification.) + +Mr. BELIN. I ask you to state, if you know, what this is. + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. That is the retaining wall and myself sitting on it +at Houston and Elm. + +Mr. BELIN. You remember that the photographer was standing on the front +steps of the Texas School Book Depository when that picture was taken +on the 20th of March? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I do. + +Mr. BELIN. And the camera is pointed in what direction? + +Mr. BRENNAN. South. + +Representative FORD. Are those the positions where you were sitting on +November 22? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. At about 12---- + +Mr. BRENNAN. From about 12:22 or 12:24 until the time of the +assassination. + +Representative FORD. In both pictures, that is a true---- + +Mr. BRENNAN. True location. + +Representative FORD. True location of where you were sitting November +22d? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, I am going to hand you a negative, which has +been marked as Commission Exhibit 479. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 479 for +identification.) + +Mr. BELIN. This appears to be a negative from a moving picture film. +And I will hand you a magnifying glass--the negative has been enlarged. +This negative appears to be a picture of the Presidential motorcade +on the afternoon of November 22d. I ask you to state if you can find +yourself in the crowd in the background in that picture. + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I am sitting at the same position as I was in the +picture taken Friday, with the exception, I believe, my hand is resting +on the wall, and Friday my hand, I believe, was resting on my leg. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, your legs in this picture, Exhibit 479, I notice, are +not dangling on the front side there, is that correct? + +Mr. BRENNAN. No. + +Mr. BELIN. What were you wearing on November 22d? What clothes were you +wearing? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Gray khaki work clothes, with a dark gray hard helmet. + +Mr. BELIN. Your head here appears to be the highest in the group, a +little bit left of center in the upper part of the picture, is that +correct? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Does this scene depict the scene as you recollect it on that +day, November 22d? + +Mr. BRENNAN. It does. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, could you please tell the Commission what +happened from the time you sat on that retaining wall, what you saw? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I was more or less observing the crowd and the +people in different building windows, including the fire escape across +from the Texas Book Store on the east side of the Texas Book Store, +and also the Texas Book Store Building windows. I observed quite a few +people in different windows. In particular, I saw this one man on the +sixth floor which left the window to my knowledge a couple of times. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, you say the window on the sixth floor. What building +are you referring to there? + +Mr. BRENNAN. That is the Texas Book Store. + +Mr. BELIN. I am going to ask you to circle on Exhibit 477 the +particular window that you said you saw a man leave and come back a +couple of times. + +Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I am confused here, the way this shows. But I +believe this is the sixth floor, the way those windows are built there +right at the present. I am confused whether this is the same window. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean because some windows are open below it? + +Mr. BRENNAN. No. The way the building is built, it seems like this is +more or less a long window with a divider in the middle. + +Mr. BELIN. Here is a marking pencil. Will you just mark the window that +you believe you saw the man. + +All right. + +And do you want to put a letter "A", if you would, by that. + +All right, now you have marked on Commission Exhibit 477 a circle with +the letter "A" to show the window that you saw a man in, I believe you +said, at least two times come back and forth. + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see any other people in any other windows that you +can recollect? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Not on that floor. + +There was no other person on that floor that ever came to the window +that I noticed. + +There were people on the next floor down, which is the fifth floor, +colored guys. In particular, I only remember two that I identified. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you want to mark the window with the circle that you +believe you saw some Negro people on the fifth floor. Could you do that +with this marking pencil on Exhibit 477, please? + +Mr. BRENNAN. The two that I identified, I believe, was in this window. + +Mr. BELIN. You want to put a "B" on that one? + +Now, after you saw the man--well, just tell what else you saw during +that afternoon. + +Mr. BRENNAN. Well, as the parade came by, I watched it from a distance +of Elm and Main Street, as it came on to Houston and turned the corner +at Houston and Elm, going down the incline towards the railroad +underpass. And after the President had passed my position, I really +couldn't say how many feet or how far, a short distance I would say, I +heard this crack that I positively thought was a backfire. + +Mr. BELIN. You thought it was backfire? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Of a motorcycle. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you observe or hear? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Well, then something, just right after this explosion, +made me think that it was a firecracker being thrown from the Texas +Book Store. And I glanced up. And this man that I saw previous was +aiming for his last shot. + +Mr. BELIN. This man you saw previous? Which man are you talking about +now? + +Mr. BRENNAN. The man in the sixth story window. + +Mr. BELIN. Would you describe just exactly what you saw when you saw +him this last time? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Well, as it appeared to me he was standing up and resting +against the left window sill, with gun shouldered to his right +shoulder, holding the gun with his left hand and taking positive aim +and fired his last shot. As I calculate a couple of seconds. He drew +the gun back from the window as though he was drawing it back to his +side and maybe paused for another second as though to assure hisself +that he hit his mark, and then he disappeared. + +And, at the same moment, I was diving off of that firewall and to the +right for bullet protection of this stone wall that is a little higher +on the Houston side. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you. What kind of a gun did you see in that +window? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I am not an expert on guns. It was, as I could observe, +some type of a high-powered rifle. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not it had any kind of a scope on +it? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I did not observe a scope. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not it had one? Do you know +whether it did or not, or could you observe that it definitely did or +definitely did not, or don't you know? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I do not know if it had a scope or not. + +Mr. BELIN. I believe you said you thought the man was standing. What do +you believe was the position of the people on the fifth floor that you +saw--standing or sitting? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I thought they were standing with their elbows on the +window sill leaning out. + +Mr. BELIN. At the time you saw this man on the sixth floor, how much of +the man could you see? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I could see--at one time he came to the window and +he sat sideways on the window sill. That was previous to President +Kennedy getting there. And I could see practically his whole body, from +his hips up. But at the time that he was firing the gun, a possibility +from his belt up. + +Mr. BELIN. How much of the gun do you believe that you saw? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I calculate 70 to 85 percent of the gun. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know what direction the gun was pointing. + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. And what direction was the gun pointing when you saw it? + +Mr. BRENNAN. At somewhat 30 degrees downward and west by south. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know down what street it was pointing? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. Down Elm Street toward the railroad underpasses. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, up to the time of the shots, did you observe anything +else that you have not told us about here that you can think of right +now? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Well, not of any importance. I don't remember anything +else except---- + +Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. How many shots did you hear? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Positively two. I do not recall a second shot---- + +Mr. BELIN. By a second shot, you mean a middle shot between the time +you heard the first noise and the last noise? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; that is right. I don't know what made me think that +there was firecrackers throwed out of the Book Store unless I did hear +the second shot, because I positively thought the first shot was a +backfire, and subconsciously I must have heard a second shot, but I do +not recall it. I could not swear to it. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you describe the man you saw in the window on the +sixth floor? + +Mr. BRENNAN. To my best description, a man in his early thirties, fair +complexion, slender but neat, neat slender, possibly 5-foot 10. + +Mr. BELIN. About what weight? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Oh, at--I calculated, I think, from 160 to 170 pounds. + +Mr. BELIN. A white man? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what kind of clothes he was wearing? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Light colored clothes, more of a khaki color. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the color of his hair? + +Mr. BRENNAN. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, I believe you said that after the last shot you jumped +off this masonry structure on which you were sitting. Why did you jump +off? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Well, it occurred to me that there might be more than one +person, that it was a plot which could mean several people, and I knew +beyond reasonable doubt that there were going to be bullets flying from +every direction. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after that? Or what did you see? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I observed to my thinking that they were directing their +search towards the west side of the building and down Houston Street. + +Mr. BELIN. When you say "they", who do you mean? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Law-enforcement officers. + +Mr. BELIN. By the west side of the building, you mean towards the +underpass or railroad tracks? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. After you saw that, what did you do? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I knew I had to get to someone quick to tell them where +the man was. So I ran or I walked--there is a possibility I ran, +because I have a habit of, when something has to be done in a hurry, +I run. And there was one officer standing at the corner of the Texas +Book Store on the street. It didn't seem to me he was going in any +direction. He was standing still. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do or what did you say to him? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I asked him to get me someone in charge, a Secret Service +man or an FBI. That it appeared to me that they were searching in the +wrong direction for the man that did the shooting. + +And he was definitely in the building on the sixth floor. + +I did not say on the sixth floor. Correction there. + +I believe I identified the window as one window from the top. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. BRENNAN. Because, at that time, I did not know how many story +building it was. + +Representative FORD. But you did say to the policeman it was a window +on the second floor from the top? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. And then what happened? + +Mr. BRENNAN. He---- + +The CHAIRMAN. May I ask there. By the second floor from the top, do you +mean the one directly underneath the top floor? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Underneath the top floor, excluding the roof, yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. And then what happened, sir? + +Mr. BRENNAN. He said, "Just a minute." And he had to give some orders +or something on the east side of the building on Houston Street. And +then he had taken me to, I believe, Mr. Sorrels, an automobile sitting +in front of the Texas Book Store. + +Mr. BELIN. And then what happened there? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I related my information and there was a few minutes of +discussion, and Mr. Sorrels had taken me then across the street to the +sheriff's building. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you describe the man that you saw in the window? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I believe I did. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, later that afternoon, or the next day, did +you have occasion to go down to the Dallas Police Station to try to +identify any person? + +Mr. BRENNAN. That evening, the Secret Service picked me up, Mr. +Patterson, I believe, at 6 o'clock, at my home, and taken me to the +Dallas Police Station. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Could you tell us what happened there, please? + +Mr. BRENNAN. If I might add a part, that I left out a couple of minutes +ago---- + +Mr. BELIN. Go right ahead, sir. + +Mr. BRENNAN. As Mr. Sorrels and some more men were discussing this, I +mentioned these two colored guys. + +Mr. BELIN. Yes. + +Mr. BRENNAN. Came out of the book store, running down the steps. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean the two---- + +Mr. BRENNAN. That I had previously saw on the fifth floor. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. BRENNAN. And I immediately identified these two boys to the +officers and Mr. Sorrels as being on the fifth floor. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you have anything else you wish to add now? + +Mr. BRENNAN. No; that concludes that. + +Mr. McCLOY. They were running out of the building? + +Mr. BRENNAN. They came running down the front steps of the building on +the Elm street side. + +Mr. McCLOY. Did they then disappear in the crowd? + +Mr. BRENNAN. No; they took them in custody, I suppose, and questioned +them. + +Representative FORD. The law enforcement officers stopped them, and you +did what, then? + +Mr. BRENNAN. No. I believe Mr. Sorrels or the Secret Service man +stopped them. + +I am not sure, but I don't believe an officer of the police department +stopped them. + +Representative FORD. But you were standing on the steps of the Texas +School Book Depository Building talking to whom? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Mr. Sorrels and another man, and I believe there was an +officer standing there, a police officer. + +Representative FORD. And these two Negroes came out of the front door? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. And you did what then? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I---- + +Representative FORD. Spoke to Mr. Sorrels? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Spoke to Mr. Sorrels, and told him that those were the +two colored boys that was on the fifth floor, or on the next floor +underneath the man that fired the gun. + +Representative FORD. You positively identified them? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I did, at that time. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else now up to the time you got down to +the Dallas Police Station? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Well, nothing except that up until that time, through +my entire life, I could never remember what a colored person looked +like if he got out of my sight. And I always thought that if I had to +identify a colored person I could not. But by coincidence that one time +I did recognize those two boys. + +Representative FORD. Did those two Negro men say in your presence that +they had been in the fifth floor window? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I don't recall. I don't recall. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else, sir, now up to the time you got down +to the Dallas Police Station? + +Mr. BRENNAN. On Friday evening, you are speaking of? + +Mr. BELIN. Yes. + +Mr. BRENNAN. No. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +What happened when you got down to the Dallas Police Station? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Mr. Patterson, if I am correct in the Secret Service that +picked me up, directed me to go to the fourth floor, a certain room on +that floor. + +(At this point, Mr. Warren and Representative Ford withdrew from the +hearing room.) + +Mr. BRENNAN. I later was introduced to several men--Captain Fritz in +Mr. Sorrels' office, and several more men. I do not remember their +names. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Before I go any further, do you remember the name of the officer you +talked to in front of the School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I don't believe I ever heard it. I do not remember his +name. + +Mr. BELIN. Are you sure of the names of the Secret Service men you +talked to? I believe you mentioned the name Sorrels. + +Mr. BRENNAN. I do not know the other man's name. + +Mr. BELIN. You believe one of them was Sorrels? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I believe one of them was Sorrels. + +Mr. BELIN. I think for the record---- + +Mr. BRENNAN. That is at the building. + +Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. + +I think we should offer and introduce Commission Exhibits 477, 478, and +479. + +Mr. DULLES. The Chief Justice has asked me to preside in his absence +this morning. + +They shall be admitted. + +(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission +Exhibits Nos. 477, 478 and 479, were received in evidence.) + +Mr. BELIN. By the way, Mr. Brennan, I note that you have glasses with +you here today. + +Were you wearing glasses at the time of the incident that you related +here? + +Mr. BRENNAN. No. I only use glasses to see fine print and more +especially the Bible and blueprint. + +Mr. BELIN. And have you had your eyes checked within the past 2 or 3 +years? + +Mr. BRENNAN. These here were prescriptioned, I believe, a possibility +less than a year before the incident. + +Mr. DULLES. Does that mean you are farsighted? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) + +Mr. BELIN. Has there been anything that has happened since the time of +November 22, 1963, that has changed your eyesight in any way? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What has happened? + +Mr. BRENNAN. The last of January I got both eyes sandblasted. + +Mr. BELIN. This is January of 1964? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. And I had to be treated by a Doctor Black, I believe, +in the Medical Arts Building, through the company. And I was completely +blind for about 6 hours. + +Mr. BELIN. How is your eyesight today? + +Mr. BRENNAN. He says it is not good. + +Mr. BELIN. But this occurred January of this year, is that correct? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, taking you down to the Dallas Police Station, I believe +you said you talked to Captain Fritz. And then what happened? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I was just more or less introduced to him in Mr. +Sorrels' room, and they told me they were going to conduct a lineup and +wanted me to view it, which I did. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how many people were in the lineup? + +Mr. BRENNAN. No; I don't. A possibility seven more or less one. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Did you see anyone in the lineup you recognized? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. And what did you say? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I told Mr. Sorrels and Captain Fritz at that time that +Oswald--or the man in the lineup that I identified looking more like a +closest resemblance to the man in the window than anyone in the lineup. + +Mr. BELIN. Were the other people in the lineup, do you remember--were +they all white, or were there some Negroes in there, or what? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I do not remember. + +Mr. BELIN. As I understand your testimony, then, you said that you told +him that this particular person looked the most like the man you saw on +the sixth floor of the building there. + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. In the meantime, had you seen any pictures of Lee Harvey +Oswald on television or in the newspapers? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, on television. + +Mr. BELIN. About when was that, do you believe? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I believe I reached home quarter to three or something of +that, 15 minutes either way, and I saw his picture twice on television +before I went down to the police station for the lineup. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, is there anything else you told the officers at the +time of the lineup? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I told them I could not make a positive +identification. + +Mr. BELIN. When you told them that, did you ever later tell any officer +or investigating person anything different? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. When did that happen? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I believe some days later--I don't recall exactly--and I +believe the Secret Service man identified hisself as being Williams, +I believe, from Houston. I won't swear to that--whether his name was +Williams or not. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. BRENNAN. And he could have been an FBI. As far as I remember, it +could have been FBI instead of Secret Service. + +But I believe it was a Secret Service man from Houston. + +And I---- + +Mr. BELIN. What did he say to you and what did you say to him? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Well, he asked me--he said, "You said you couldn't make a +positive identification." + +He said, "Did you do that for security reasons personally, or couldn't +you?" + +And I told him I could with all honesty, but I did it more or less for +security reasons--my family and myself. + +Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by security reasons for your family and +yourself? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I believe at that time, and I still believe it was a +Communist activity, and I felt like there hadn't been more than one +eyewitness, and if it got to be a known fact that I was an eyewitness, +my family or I, either one, might not be safe. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, if you wouldn't have identified him, might he not have +been released by the police? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Beg pardon? + +Mr. BELIN. If you would not have identified that man positively, might +he not have been released by the police? + +Mr. BRENNAN. No. That had a great contributing factor--greater +contributing factor than my personal reasons was that I already knew +they had the man for murder, and I knew he would not be released. + +Mr. BELIN. The murder of whom? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Of Officer Tippit. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, what happened in between to change your mind that you +later decided to come forth and tell them you could identify him? + +Mr. BRENNAN. After Oswald was killed, I was relieved quite a bit that +as far as pressure on myself of somebody not wanting me to identify +anybody, there was no longer that immediate danger. + +Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not your having seen +Oswald on television would have affected your identification of him one +way or the other? + +Mr. BRENNAN. That is something I do not know. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, could you tell us now whether you can or cannot +positively identify the man you saw on the sixth floor window as the +same man that you saw in the police station? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I could at that time--I could, with all sincerity, +identify him as being the same man. + +Mr. BELIN. Was the man that you saw in the window firing the rifle the +same man that you had seen earlier in the window, you said at least a +couple of times, first stepping up and then going back? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. About how far were you away from that window at the time you +saw him, Mr. Brennan? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Well, at that time, I calculated 110-foot at an angle. But +closer surveillance I believe it will run close to 122 to 126 feet at +an angle. + +Mr. BELIN. I believe that on Friday we paced the distance between the +place where you were sitting and the front door of the Texas School +Book Depository Building, and it ran about---- + +Mr. BRENNAN. 93-foot. + +Representative FORD. This doesn't have to be now, but I think some time +he ought to step by step on a diagram trace his movements from the +restaurant until he left the scene of the shooting. + +Mr. BELIN. On that particular diagram, Congressman Ford, which is +Exhibit No. 361, the intersection of Main and Houston, and of Record +and Main is not shown. It would be a little bit to the south. + +Representative FORD. But he might be able to show the direction from +which he came to get on to the scene. + +Mr. BELIN. Yes; that he can do. + +Representative FORD. And then his movements from there on until he left +the area. I think it would be very helpful to tie down the precise +places he was from time to time. + +Mr. BELIN. I think he might do that right now. + +Mr. Brennan, I place in front of you Exhibit 361, and I call to your +attention that the top appears to be south rather than north, and the +arrow north is pointed towards the bottom. And you will notice at the +top here, running in what would be an east-west direction, is Elm +Street. And you can see running in a north-south direction Houston +Street, with the Texas School Book Depository Building noted here in +black. + +Do you see that? + +Mr. BRENNAN. It should be here. + +Mr. BELIN. I will turn the map around to show you north and south; we +can keep it upside down for the moment. + +This is Elm Street. To the north is Pacific. Main would be down here +off the bottom of the map. And here is Record Street right here. And +I believe you said you were at lunch at Record and Main, and then you +walked to the south. + +I wonder if you might take this pen and kind of, off the street +markings, you might start maybe down here at the bottom as to where you +had your lunch. + +Mr. BRENNAN. This is Main here. + +Mr. BELIN. Main would be running there, yes. + +If you would, put a "D" at that point. + +Now, if you would kind of on a line trace your course that you took +that day. + +All right. + +Mr. BRENNAN. I didn't go to the corner. + +Mr. BELIN. You didn't go to the corner of Elm and Houston. That would +be the southeast corner? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I noticed this man having a fit. And I came across at this +corner. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, would you put the letter "E" where you ended up +sitting. This is on Exhibit No. 361. + +Mr. BRENNAN. "E"? + +Mr. BELIN. Yes. + +Mr. BRENNAN. I believe that would be just about where the retainer wall +is. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +So you have put on Exhibit 361 the letter "E" where you were sitting +facing the School Book Depository Building. + +Representative FORD. I think that it might be helpful to trace it where +he went subsequent to that. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Subsequent to the time of the shooting, would you put a line from your +point at point "E" to where you went to talk to the police officers and +the Secret Service officers? + +Mr. BRENNAN. The retaining wall come around here and straight across +here. + +Mr. BELIN. Will you put an "F" where you talked to him? + +Mr. BRENNAN. The car was sitting here. That is where I talked to him. +This is where I contacted the officer. + +Mr. BELIN. You contacted the officer at "F". + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. And then you went over to a car. + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Would you put your direction to the car and put a "G" on +there? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I walked down the street hereaways with this officer. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, the point from "F" where you walked down the +street, that would be walking north on Houston? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I don't know; however, we walked down this way, but I do +remember going in that direction with the officer. + +Mr. BELIN. You went to the north on Houston? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. And then back to---- + +Mr. BELIN. Well, just put a mark in there, and cut it back, if you +could, just to show the route of you going north. + +Mr. BRENNAN. I don't know exactly however. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Will you put a mark to "G" at the end? And I believe you said that the +car that you talked to the Secret Service agent in was at point "G" +approximately? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, are these accurate or approximate locations, Mr. +Brennan? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Well, don't you have photographs of me talking to the +Secret Service men right here? + +Mr. BELIN. I don't believe so. + +Mr. BRENNAN. You should have. It was on television before I got +home--my wife saw it. + +Mr. BELIN. On television? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. At this time we do not have them. + +Do you remember what station they were on television? + +Mr. BRENNAN. No. But they had it. And I called I believe Mr. Lish who +requested that he cut those films or get them cut of the FBI. I believe +you might know about them. Somebody cut those films, because a number +of times later the same films were shown, and that part was cut. + +Mr. BELIN. Who would Mr. Lish be with? + +Mr. BRENNAN. The FBI. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +We thank you very much for that information. + +Is there anything else that you did at point "G" or anywhere else after +the time of the assassination before you went to the Sheriff's office? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I walked up the steps and stood on the outside of the +doorway. + +Mr. BELIN. Of what building? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Of the Texas Book Store, while the officers or the men +that I was with gave some more orders. And then Mr. Sorrels taken me +across to the Sheriff's office. + +Mr. DULLES. You did not go inside the building? + +Mr. BRENNAN. No; I did not. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you notice any people coming out of the front stairs of +the building after these two Negroes came out? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I recall people going in and out, but a different +picture I cannot remember. + +Representative FORD. Where were you standing when you identified the +two Negroes? + +Mr. BRENNAN. On the edge of the street, outer side of the sidewalk, +when the two colored boys came out of the building and came down the +steps. + +Mr. BELIN. Was that at point "G"? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Now, perhaps on Exhibit No. 478 you can trace your route at least along +Houston Street to the time--to the place where you were sitting. You +recognize the intersection of Main and Houston there? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Could you start there and kind of trace--well, I don't know if you can +see all of it. + +Mr. BRENNAN. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Do the best you can, you can trace along here. + +Here would be the intersection of Main and Houston. + +Mr. BRENNAN. I came down that side. Now, this street was open at that +time. + +Mr. BELIN. By this street you mean Houston Street? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I don't recall any parked cars there. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you make that line a little darker, sir, that you have +put on. + +All right. Now, at that first point, this would be---- + +Mr. BRENNAN. I believe I walked a little south there, just observing +them picking the man up. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +You have marked a line on Exhibit No. 478 heading a little bit south on +the west side of Houston street, commencing at the southwest corner of +the intersection, which is where you say you walked to watch the man +with the epileptic fit, is that it? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I didn't go up--he was almost center way of the +block here. I didn't go up that far. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +And will you put the letter "H" there, if you would? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Where I was standing watching the man? + +Mr. BELIN. Where you were standing watching the man; yes. + +Mr. BRENNAN. Right there. + +Mr. BELIN. And then where did you go from there? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Right there. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Now, you have taken a line which would be running along the south side +of Elm Street there towards the point where you are sitting, and that +is in the picture Exhibit 478. And that was the route that you took? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Put the letter "I", if you would, there, please. + +Now, on Exhibit No. 477, I wonder if you would perchance show us after +the assassination, or the shooting--you said you first went over to +another side of the wall. + +Would it be to the east or to the west there? + +Mr. BRENNAN. To the east. This right here is solid concrete. + +Mr. BELIN. Is this where you went? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +On Exhibit 477, could you put the letter "J" where you went right after +the shooting? + +All right. + +Now, I believe you said you later stood up and eventually walked across +the street to get a police officer. On Exhibit 477, could you put a +letter "K" where you believe you went to talk to this police officer, +where he was. + +It looks like there is a car there now. + +So you went from point "J" to point "K", and point "K", on Exhibit 477, +would correspond with "F" on Exhibit 361, is that right? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Now, I wonder if you could perchance show on Exhibit 477 the point that +corresponds with point "G" on Exhibit 361, which is where you said you +went to the car. + +Mr. BRENNAN. This car here--letter what? + +Mr. BELIN. "L". + +Mr. BRENNAN. That is this car here, sitting approximately where---- + +Mr. BELIN. I note that this car that you have marked the "L" is not +actually on the extreme north part of Elm, but really appears to be on +that part which is going down to the Freeway. + +Mr. BRENNAN. Oh, is that right? + +Yes; you are correct there. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, is this accurate, or was it one that you saw parked +right in front of the building? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Right next to the curb in front of the building. + +Mr. BELIN. Would it be behind--you might put the letter "M" to show the +car which it is behind now. + +Mr. BRENNAN. All right. + +Mr. BELIN. You have put the letter "M" on Exhibit 477 to show the car +behind the one which the Secret Service car was parked. + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. At this time I believe Exhibits 477, 478 and 479 should be +reoffered to show all of the markings that the witness has made on +these exhibits. + +Mr. DULLES. They shall be admitted as remarked. + +(The documents referred to, previously marked for identification as +Commission's Exhibit Nos. 477, 478, and 479 were readmitted into +evidence.) + +Mr. BELIN. And also Exhibit 361 should be reoffered. + +Mr. DULLES. What is 361? + +Mr. BELIN. It is the large chart which also has been marked on. + +Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted again, remarked. + +(The chart referred to, previously marked as Commission's Exhibit No. +361 for identification, was readmitted into evidence.) + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, in this sixth floor window, where you saw the +gun fired, did you see any objects of any kind in the window, or near +the window? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. Through the window, which I referred to as back in +the book store building, I could see stacks of boxes. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, I hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 480, which +appears to be a picture of the Texas School Book Depository Building, +which was taken shortly after this time. + +I believe on the fifth floor you can see on two of the open windows +there some people looking out, and Exhibit 481 is a picture of the east +windows on the south side of the fifth and sixth floors, and Exhibit +482 is an enlargement of 481. + +First of all, on Exhibits 481 and 482, do you recognize any of these +two persons in the fifth floor window as people you saw there? + +Mr. BRENNAN. No; I do not recognize them. + +As positive identification I cannot recognize them. + +Now, I see where there is a possibility I did make a mistake. I believe +these two colored boys was in this window, and I believe I showed on +that other exhibit that they were in this window. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +I am going to hand you now---- + +Mr. BRENNAN. The only thing I said is that they were one window over +below the man that fired the gun. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, I hand you Commission Exhibit 477, where you marked a +"B" at the point there you first said you saw the Negro men. Is this +the one you say now you might have been mistaken? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I believe I was mistaken. I believe the two men that +I identified was in this window. + +Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to the window to the east of where you have +now marked "B"? + +Mr. BRENNAN. That I am not positive of. I just remember that they were +over one window from below him, which at that time I might have thought +this was one window over. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Let me ask you this. On Exhibit 481, does the +condition of the opening of the windows in the fifth floor appear to be +that which you saw on the afternoon of November 22? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. These do. + +Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to the fifth-floor windows now? + +Mr. BRENNAN. But I don't recall this window at the time of the shooting +being that low. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, by this window you are pointing to the window on the +sixth floor? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 481. I wonder if you would mark that with the +letter "A"--if you would circle that window. And could you put an "A" +on that, if you would. + +Now, window A, on Exhibit 481, when you saw it, how high do you believe +it was open? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I believe that at the time he was firing, it was open just +like this. + +Mr. BELIN. Just like the windows on the fifth floor immediately below? + +Mr. BRENNAN. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. I note in window "A" there appear to be some boxes in +the window. To the best of your recollection, what is the fact as +to whether or not those boxes as shown in this exhibit appear to be +similar to the ones you saw on November 22? + +Mr. BRENNAN. No; I could see more boxes. + +Mr. BELIN. In the window or behind the window? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Behind the window. + +Mr. BELIN. I am talking in the window itself. + +Mr. BRENNAN. No, no. That is--I don't remember a box in the window, +these boxes I remember are stacked up behind the window, and they were +zigzagged, kind of step down, and there was a space it looked like back +of here. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, you are pointing to a space which would be on the east +side, is that right? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. When you say you don't remember---- + +Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I can see those boxes there now. I don't know +whether you can see them or not. It seems like I can see the boxes in +that picture. Am I right? + +Mr. BELIN. I don't know, sir. I can't see them on Exhibit 471. That +could be the dirty window here. + +Mr. BRENNAN. Here they are here. Those boxes there. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, here is Exhibit 482. + +First of all, I see a box on Exhibit 482, right in the window. + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I don't recall that box. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you recall that it definitely was not there, or just you +don't recall whether it was or was not there. + +Mr. BRENNAN. I do not recall that being there. So, therefore, I could +not say it definitely wasn't there. + +Mr. BELIN. You cannot say whether it was or was not? + +Mr. BRENNAN. No. + +Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 482, do you want to point an arrow to where you +believe you can see boxes back there. Or where you saw boxes. + +All right. + +Let the record show that Exhibits 480, 481, and 482 were taken by, I +believe it is, Underwood or--just a second. Thomas C. Dillard, Chief +Photographer of the Dallas Morning News, who was riding in the car with +Robert H. Jackson, who has already testified before the Commission, +and the deposition of Mr. Dillard will be taken by Mr. Ball and me in +Dallas in the first part of April. + +And that Exhibits 480, 481, and 482 were taken shortly after the firing +of the third shot. I think that this should appear in the record. + +I think it should also appear in the record that Exhibit 479 is one of +the frames from the Abraham Zapruder movie film. + +Mr. Brennan, from the time you first saw the Presidential motorcade +turning north on Houston from Main, did you observe the window from +which you say you saw the last shot fired at any time prior to the time +you saw the rifle in the window? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, what I am saying is this. You saw the motorcade turn? + +Mr. BRENNAN. No; not after I saw the motorcade, I did not observe a man +or rifle in the window. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you observe the window at all until after you heard that +first sound which was a backfire or firecracker, at least you thought +it was? + +Mr. BRENNAN. No. + +Mr. BELIN. So you did not observe the window and would not know whether +or not there was any man in the window during that period? + +Mr. BRENNAN. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, let the record be clear. The first sound you first +thought was what? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Backfire of a motorcycle. + +Mr. BELIN. And then you later said something about a firecracker. + +Did that have reference to the first shot, or something in between the +first and last? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I positively thought that the first shot was a backfire +of a motorcycle. And then something made me think that someone was +throwing firecrackers from the Texas Book Store, and a possibility it +was the second shot. But I glanced up or looked up and I saw this man +taking aim for his last shot. The first shot and last shot is my only +positive recollection of two shots. + +Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the rifle explode? Did you see the flash of +what was either the second or the third shot? + +Mr. BRENNAN. No. + +Mr. McCLOY. Could you see that he had discharged the rifle? + +Mr. BRENNAN. No. For some reason I did not get an echo at any time. The +first shot was positive and clear and the last shot was positive and +clear, with no echo on my part. + +Mr. McCLOY. Yes. + +But you saw him aim? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the rifle discharge, did you see the recoil or +the flash? + +Mr. BRENNAN. No. + +Mr. McCLOY. But you heard the last shot. + +Mr. BRENNAN. The report; yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Could you see who or what he was aiming at? You testified +as to the declination of the rifle, the angle of the rifle. But could +you see what he was firing at? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Subconsciously I knew what he was firing at. But +immediately I looked towards where President Kennedy's car should +be, and there was something obstructing my view. I could not see the +President or his car at that time. + +And I still don't know what was obstructing my view, because I was high +enough that I should have been able to see it. I could not see it. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, on one of your interviews with the FBI, they +record a statement that you estimated your distance between the point +you were seated and the window from which the shots were fired as +approximately 90 yards. + +At that time did you make that statement to the FBI--and this would be +on 22 November. To the best of your recollection? + +Mr. BRENNAN. There was a mistake in the FBI recording there. He had +asked me the question of how far the shot was fired from too, and also +he had asked me the question of how far I was from the shot that was +fired. I calculated the distance at the angle his gun was resting that +he must have been firing 80 to 90 yards. + +Now, I---- + +Mr. BELIN. You mean 80 or 90 yards from where? + +Mr. BRENNAN. From Kennedy's position. + +Mr. BELIN. But could you see Kennedy's position? + +Mr. BRENNAN. No; I could not. But I could see before and after. + +Mr. BELIN. In that same interview, you stated that you attended a +lineup at the Dallas Police Department at which you picked Lee Harvey +Oswald as the person most closely resembling the man you observed with +the rifle in the window of the Texas School Book Depository, but you +stated you could not positively identify Oswald as the person you saw +fire the rifle. + +Now, is this an accurate recording of the statement you made to the FBI +on or about November 22? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I believe---- + +Mr. BELIN. In other words, that part of the FBI statement is correct, +as to what you told them? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What was the fact as to whether you could or could not +identify the person, apart from what you told them? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Why did I---- + +Mr. BELIN. No. + +What was the fact. Could you or could you not actually identify this +person as the man you saw firing the rifle? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I believed I could with all fairness and sincerity. As you +asked me the question before, had I saw those pictures of Oswald prior, +which naturally I don't know whether it confused me or made me feel as +though I was taking unfair advantage or what. But with all fairness, I +could have positively identified the man. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, on December 17 there appears to be another interview +that you had with an agent of the FBI in which you at that time, +according to this report, stated that you could now say that you were +sure that Lee Harvey Oswald was the person you saw in the window at +the time of the assassination, but that when you first saw him in a +lineup you felt positive identification was was not necessary, because +it was your understanding that Oswald had already been charged with the +slaying of Officer Tippit, and you also said that another factor was +that you had observed his picture on television prior to the time of +identification, and that that tended to cloud any identification you +made of Oswald at the police department. + +Now, does this December 17 interview accurately record what you told +the FBI with regard to that matter of identification? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I believe it does. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, later we have an interview on January 7 with the FBI in +which at that time the interview records that while you were at home +and before you returned to view the lineup, which included the possible +assassin of President Kennedy, you observed Lee Harvey Oswald's picture +on television, and that you said that this, of course, did not help you +retain the original impression of the man in the window with the rifle, +but that upon seeing Lee Harvey Oswald in the police lineup, you felt +that Oswald most resembled the man whom you had seen in the window. + +Now, is that what you told the man on January 7--that Oswald most +resembled the man that you had seen in the window? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Does that mean you could not give him a positive +identification at that time, but could merely say he most resembled the +man in the window? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I felt that I could. But for personal reasons I +didn't feel like that at that moment it was compulsory and I did not +want to give a positive identification at that time. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, this last interview was on January 7th. You still felt +these personal reasons as recently as January 7th, then? + +Mr. BRENNAN. No. I felt better about it. This is the first guy that---- + +Mr. BELIN. No. I am referring now to the last interview you had on +January 7th, in which it says that you felt that Oswald most resembled +the man you had seen in the window. + +Is that what you told them? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +You mean told this man? + +Mr. BELIN. On January 7th; yes, sir. + +Mr. BRENNAN. No; I don't believe I told this man in those words. I told +him what I had said at the lineup. But he might have misinterpreted +that I was saying that again. + +Mr. BELIN. In other words--well, I don't want to say in other words. + +When you said on January 7th that upon seeing Lee Harvey Oswald in the +lineup you felt that Oswald most resembled the man whom you had seen in +the window? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, I am referring to a statement to the FBI on January 7th +of this year. + +Mr. BRENNAN. All right. + +Mr. BELIN. By that, did you have reference to your own personal +recollection, or what you said at the time of the Dallas Police +Department lineup? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I believe I was referring to what I said at the Dallas +Police Department. + +Mr. BELIN. On January 7th of this year, what is the fact as to whether +or not you could give--whether or not you felt on November 22d that the +man you saw in the window was the man you saw in the police lineup--not +what you told him, but what was the fact? + +Mr. BRENNAN. On January 7th, at that time I did believe that I could +give positive identification as well as I did later. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean in the December interview? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this: You said you saw the man with the rifle +on the sixth floor, and then you said you saw some Negroes on the fifth +floor. + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you get as good a look at the Negroes as you got at the +man with the rifle? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you feel that your recollection of the Negroes at that +time was as good as the one with the man with the rifle? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes--at that time, it was. Now--the boys rode up with me +on the plane--of course I recognize them now. But as far as a few days +later, I wouldn't positively say that I could identify them. I did +identify them that day. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, for instance, when I showed you Exhibit 482, you said +that you could not identify---- + +Mr. BRENNAN. Well, the picture is not clear enough, as far as distinct +profiles. + +Mr. DULLES. Mr. Belin, I don't think you have asked they be admitted as +yet. + +Mr. BELIN. No, sir. I have one more mark to make on them, sir. + +Mr. BRENNAN. The pictures there are not clear enough, the profile is +not distinct enough. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Now, I wonder if you would take on Exhibit 482, if you can kind of mark +the way the rifle was at the time you saw it. + +Here is a red pencil. If you could put on Exhibit 482 the direction +that you saw the rifle pointing, sir. + +Mr. BRENNAN. I would say more at this angle. Maybe not as far out as +this. + +Mr. BELIN. You have put a line, and I have tried to make a little bit +darker line. + +Mr. BRENNAN. That is as close as I can get it. + +Mr. BELIN. This is on Exhibit 482--as to the angle at which you saw the +rifle. And you say perhaps it wasn't out of the window as far as this +line goes on Exhibit 482, is that correct? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Right. + +Representative FORD. That is the angle that you believe the rifle was +pointed? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. And that is from the area in the window from which the +rifle was pointing? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not any part of the rifle was +protruding out of the window? + +Mr. BRENNAN. On a straight view like that it looked like it was. + +But as I have told investigating officers prior, a person would have to +be at an angle to tell how much was protruding out of the window. It +did look at that time that as much was protruding out of the window as +there was in the window. + +Mr. BELIN. At this time, we offer and introduce into evidence Exhibits +480, 481, and 482. + +Mr. DULLES. They will be accepted. + +(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission +Exhibits Nos. 480, 481, and 482 were received in evidence.) + +Mr. McCLOY. I have one or two questions, if you are finished, Mr. Belin. + +Mr. BELIN. One more question, sir. + +Did you ever tell anyone that you were 90 yards away from that window +where you saw the gun? + +Mr. BRENNAN. No. It was a misunderstanding. My first calculation was +that I was about 75-foot out from the window, and the calculation of +the window 75-foot up. So the hypotenuse there would be approximately +110-foot. That was my first calculation. + +But since we made a step of the grounds Friday, I was farther out than +75 feet. Approximately 93 feet is what we calculated Friday. + +Mr. BELIN. One additional question, sir. + +When did you first see Exhibit 479? + +Mr. BRENNAN. This morning. + +Mr. BELIN. This morning here. + +And on Exhibit 479, who picked the person out as being you in that +picture? Was it you or was it I? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I did. + +I might add that prior to Friday, no one had ever gave me any +information on your evidence whatsoever. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, on Friday you and I met for the first time in +Dallas--that would be on March 20th. + +Mr. BRENNAN. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. And we sat down and I asked you just to tell me what +happened, is that correct? + +Mr. BRENNAN. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. Did I ask you a general question and say, "What happened?" +Or did I just ask you repeated questions? + +Mr. BRENNAN. No. + +Well, you more or less told me to tell it in my own way exactly what +happened. + +Mr. BELIN. And you just started to tell it, is that correct? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I believe that sums it up. + +Mr. BELIN. And then we then went outside where you pointed out the +place where you were sitting? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the doctor that examined your eyes when you +had them examined? + +Mr. BRENNAN. He is in Port Lavaca. He is the only leading optometrist +there. + +Mr. BELIN. Would it be Dr. Howard R. Bonar? + +Mr. BRENNAN. That is right. + +How did you find that out? + +Mr. BERLIN. Well, sir, it is on one of your interviews here. + +Mr. BRENNAN. Had that question been asked me before? + +Mr. BELIN. Yes, it had. On November 22, when you advised that you wore +glasses for reading purposes only. + +Mr. BRENNAN. That is right, the FBI, Mr. Lish, right? + +Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. That examination was before the sand blasting, of course. + +Mr. BRENNAN. Oh, yes, sir. The sandblasting wasn't until January or +early February of this year. + +Representative FORD. Did you have your glasses on at the time of the +assassination? + +Mr. BRENNAN. No. + +Mr. McCLOY. You can see better at that distance without your glasses +than with them? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Oh, yes, much better. Oh, I could put these glasses on and +it is just like looking through a window pane. The upper part is just +regular clear. + +Mr. DULLES. Do you have some questions, Mr. McCloy? + +Mr. McCLOY. Yes; I have some questions. + +You said you went across the street after having sort of jumped off +this retaining wall in order to protect yourself against the possible +fusilade of shots. + +Mr. BRENNAN. Right. + +Mr. McCLOY. Then you went across and picked up a police officer, is +that right? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Right, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. And then you went with him to the steps of the Texas School +Book Depository? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Eventually, yes. + +Mr. McCLOY. How long did it take you, do you think, from the time of +the--when you first got up--from the time of the last shot, how long +would you estimate it would be before you got to the steps of the Texas +Book Depository? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I could not calculate that, because before I got to the +steps of the Texas Book Store, I had already talked to this officer, +and he had taken me to the Secret Service men, I had talked to them. + +Mr. McCLOY. And you stayed behind the retaining wall for a little while +until you saw the coast was clear? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Just seconds. I would say from the time the last shot was +fired, and me diving off the wall there, and getting around on the +solid side, and then running across to the officer, the time element is +hard to figure, but it would still be in seconds. + +Mr. McCLOY. Then when you got to the officer he took you to a Secret +Service man, and then the Secret Service man and you were on the steps +of the depository? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +Well, we talked at the car, and then when these two colored guys came +down the stairway onto the street, I pointed to them, and identified +them as being the two that was in the floor below that floor. And then +Mr. Sorrels, I think, had to give some orders to someone in the book +store. He walked me up the steps, and I stood on the top landing. + +Mr. McCLOY. When you were standing on those steps, did you see anyone +pass you, or anyone that you could recognize as being--as looking +somewhat like the man that you had seen in the window with the rifle? + +Mr. BRENNAN. No, I did not. + +Mr. DULLES. Did you give any estimate--was it a matter of 5 minutes, 6 +minutes, 7 minutes? In general, how long did it take you from the time +that you left where you were protecting yourself to the time you were +on the front steps? What order of magnitude? 10 minutes? + +Mr. BRENNAN. No; it was a shorter time than that. + +I talked to Mr. Sorrels--I believe it was Mr. Sorrels--and the Secret +Service men there--I don't believe I talked to them more than 3 to 5 +minutes. + +Mr. McCLOY. But you had prior to that time talked to the police officer? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +Mr. McCLOY. You said the police officer said, "Wait a minute." + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +Mr. McCLOY. How long was that? + +Mr. BRENNAN. That was quick, too. He gave his orders to some one on +that side of the building, and then he had taken me to the Secret +Service man. + +Mr. McCLOY. Did you have the feeling that the police had put a cordon +around the building, and were they keeping people in, or were people +coming in and out while you were there? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I did, by the time I got on the steps of the Texas +Book Store--I felt like that the place was completely surrounded and +blocked by then. But at the time I ran across to this officer, I may +have been completely wrong, they may have--the Secret Service men and +police department, too, may have been directing their search to the +building, but I felt as though they were directing their search to the +west side of the building. + +Mr. McCLOY. You testified, I believe, that you saw them directing their +search towards the wrong side of the building, so to speak? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. That was my thoughts. + +Mr. McCLOY. And so that would indicate that at that time they were not +blocking that particular entrance at the east side of the building, +below the window that you saw the shot fired from? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Not according to my calculations. + +Mr. DULLES. Any other questions? + +Representative FORD. Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that perhaps in the +case of Mr. Brennan and other witnesses, if a biography prepared by the +individual, looked over by the staff, would not be helpful to include +in the record--I don't mean a biography in great depth, but at least an +outline of the individual's background--I think it would be helpful for +the record. + +Mr. DULLES. We have certain information. + +Mr. BELIN. We have certain information in the record right now which we +took at the very beginning of the session here this morning. + +Representative FORD. Yes, I was present. But I think it is important to +have more of a background of his education, experience, and I think it +is wise to have it for all of the witnesses--not in great depth, but at +least a background to show some biographical information. + +Mr. BELIN. Would you care to have that prepared by the witness himself, +or here in the record? + +Representative FORD. I would suggest that it be prepared initially by +the witness, checked over by the staff, and then mutually agreed as +acceptable through the witness, and then insert it in the record. + +Mr. DULLES. Prior to his testimony? + +Representative FORD. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Would you be willing to furnish us with some kind of an +autobiographical sketch of yourself--your date and place of birth, +where you went to school, your education, your jobs that you have had, +and perhaps it also should include some kind of a physical description +as to your approximate height and weight and what-have-you? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Not at all. But you sure going to be confused on my jobs, +sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Because you have gone from one job to another? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I worked under the union constitution for the last +20 years, and I have worked for many a contractor. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean you just work on contract, and when you are through +with that particular construction job, the union would send you to +another construction job? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. Usually a contractor wants me to go to the State of +Washington, like I did in California, or he wants me to go to Utah or +somewhere like that. + +Mr. DULLES. I don't think we need all that detail. + +Mr. BELIN. In other words, you have been a steamfitter. + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir. + +With the exception of the possibility of 2 years I was in business in +California, private business. + +Mr. McCLOY. Are you a member of a church? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. What church are you a member of? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Baptist. + +Mr. McCLOY. You testified you were a Bible reader. + +Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I don't read it as much as I should. + +Mr. McCLOY. When you do, you have to wear glasses? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Any other questions? + +Mr. BELIN. There have been two or three other questions that have come +up here, sir. + +One question--when we visited on Friday in Dallas, what is the fact as +to whether or not I told you what to say or you yourself just told me +what you wanted to tell me? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I told you--you did not instruct me what to say at all. I +told you in the best words I could to explain exactly my movements and +what happened. + +Representative FORD. And here today you have testified freely on your +own? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Right, I have. + +Mr. DULLES. Anything you would like to add? + +Mr. BELIN. One other question, sir. + +For the record, would you repeat what I would say would be a full +statement of the reasons which caused you to state in your December +interview to the FBI that you had always been convinced that the man +you saw in the lineup was the man you saw firing the rifle, whereas on +November 22d you declined to give positive identification. Could you +give all of the reasons, please? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Well, as I previously have said, I had saw the man in +the window and I had saw him on television. He looked much younger on +television than he did from my picture of him in the window--not much +younger, but a few years younger--say 5 years younger. + +And then I felt that my family could be in danger, and I, myself, might +be in danger. And since they already had the man for murder, that +he wasn't going to be set free to escape and get out of the country +immediately, and I could very easily sooner than the FBI or the Secret +Service wanted me, my testimony in, I could very easily get in touch +with them, if they didn't get in touch with me, and to see that the man +didn't get loose. + +Representative FORD. When you got home, about 3 o'clock, on November +22d, that is when you did get home---- + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +Representative FORD. Was your wife there? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +Representative FORD. Did you and your wife discuss any aspects of the +assassination and your being present, more or less, at the scene of the +assassination? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; we discussed it. We talked--I talked of moving +her and my grandson, which was living with us at that time and my +daughter--moving them out of town somewhere in secrecy. + +Representative FORD. Why did you talk about moving your wife and your +grandson out of town on this afternoon on November 22d? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Because I had already more or less given a detailed +description of the man, and I talked to the Secret Service and gave +them my statement, and they had convinced me that it would be strictly +confidential and all that. But still I felt like if I was the only +eyewitness, that anything could happen to me or my family. + +So that was just about the length of our discussion of it. + +She seemed to think that a person can't get away--wherever they go. + +Representative FORD. Did you talk to anybody else between 3 p.m., +November 22d and the time when one of the law enforcement agents came +out and picked you up that day? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Not to tell--not to give any information out. + +My wife and I went to the bank in Mesquite that evening, and my +daughter was at home. And I told her if anyone called to first have +them identify themselves, and find out the nature of their business +that they wanted me for, and if it was the FBI or the Secret Service, +to tell them where they could contact me. + +And so we were in the bank, I believe, talking to the vice president +that evening. My daughter called and said Mr. Sorrels had called, and +that he had requested her to get the word to me to call him. And she +called me at the bank, and then I asked the secretary to get the number +for me. And I called Mr. Sorrels, and Mr. Sorrels told me there would +be a man to pick me up at 6 o'clock promptly. + +Representative FORD. 6 p.m., November 22d. + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; that is right. + +Representative FORD. And he did pick you up, and you did go down to the +police station? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. When you got back from the police station, did you have any +further conversation with your wife about what you saw in the police +station? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. But I don't believe I explained to her full details. +She probably remembers whether I did or not, but I don't. I believe I +just told her that I would not identify, make positive identification. +I believe that is all I told her. + +Mr. BELIN. That you would not, or that you could not? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I believe I told her I would not. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the specific color of any shirt that the man +with the rifle was wearing? + +Mr. BRENNAN. No, other than light, and a khaki color--maybe in khaki. I +mean other than light color--not a real white shirt, in other words. If +it was a white shirt, it was on the dingy side. + +Mr. BELIN. I am handing you what the court reporter has marked as +Commission Exhibit 150. + +Does this look like it might or might not be the shirt, or can you make +at this time any positive identification of any kind? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I would have expected it to be a little lighter--a shade +or so lighter. + +Mr. BELIN. Than Exhibit 150? + +Mr. BRENNAN. That is the best of my recollection. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Could you see the man's trousers at all? + +Do you remember any color? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I remembered them at that time as being similar to the +same color of the shirt or a little lighter. And that was another thing +that I called their attention to at the lineup. + +Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by that? + +Mr. BRENNAN. That he was not dressed in the same clothes that I saw the +man in the window. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean with reference to the trousers or the shirt? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Well, not particularly either. In other words, he just +didn't have the same clothes on. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. BRENNAN. I don't know whether you have that in the record or not. I +am sure you do. + +Mr. DULLES. Any further questions? + +I guess there are no more questions, Mr. Belin. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, sir, we want to thank you for your cooperation with +the Commission. + +Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much for coming here. + + +TESTIMONY OF BONNIE RAY WILLIAMS + +Mr. BELIN. Our next witness is Mr. Bonnie Ray Williams. + +Mr. DULLES. Mr. Williams, the purpose of the hearing today is to take +the testimony of you and certain others whose names are mentioned here. + +You and the other witnesses were all in the vicinity of the Texas +School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination of +President John F. Kennedy. + +You will be asked to provide the Commission with your knowledge of the +facts concerning the assassination of President Kennedy. + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Would you rise, sir? + +Do your swear that the evidence you will give is the truth, the whole +truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, I do. + +Mr. BALL. Mr. Williams, how old are you? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I am 20 years old. + +Mr. BALL. Where do you live? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I live in Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. BALL. What is your address? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. 1502 Avenue B, Apartment B. + +Mr. BALL. Are you married? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, I am. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you born? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I was born in Carthage, Tex. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go to school in Texas? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, I did. + +Mr. BALL. How far through school? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. All the way. + +Mr. BALL. Graduated from high school? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Where? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Marshall, Tex., and I finished high school summer course +in Dallas, Texas, Madison High. + +Mr. BALL. What year did you get out of high school? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. 1962. + +Mr. BALL. And where did you go to work after that? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I went to work at Marriott's Motor Hotel. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do there? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I started off as a dishwasher. Then they put me on +as a fry cook. + +Mr. BALL. And how long did you stay there? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. About 6 or 7 months. + +Mr. BALL. Then where did you go to work? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I went to work at Union Terminal Building, baggage +department. + +Mr. BALL. How long did you work there? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I worked there about a year. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of work did you do there? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I was a mail separator. + +Mr. BALL. Then where did you go? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Then I found this job at the Texas School Book Depository. + +Mr. BALL. When did you get that job? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Around about September 8th. + +Mr. BALL. What year? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. 1963. + +Mr. BALL. How did you happen to go there to get the job? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, my wife was expecting, and I just wanted a day +job--I was working at night. So I just went looking for a day job, and +I happened to come down that way. + +Mr. DULLES. Were you going to school in the daytime? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No. + +Mr. DULLES. This is after you finished school? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. All this took place after I finished school. + +Mr. BALL. You finished school when? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. 1962. + +Mr. BALL. And you had these three---- + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; and I had a part-time job at a construction +company. I don't remember the name of it. But it was just for about a +week. + +Mr. BALL. When you were going to school? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No. That was the same time I was working at Marriott's +Motel. + +Mr. BALL. Did you work while you went to school? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I delivered the Dallas morning newspaper sometimes, and +little odd jobs. + +Mr. BALL. Well, did anybody tell you you might get a job at the Texas +School Book Depository before you went down there? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You were just looking for a job? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I just put in applications everywhere. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of work did you do when you first went with the +Texas School Book Depository? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I think the first day I started work there they started +me off as a wrapper. Then the fellows told me that I had qualifications +to be a checker, so they put me on as a checker there. + +Mr. BALL. What are you doing now? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. At the present time I do anything--check, pack, fill +orders, anything. + +Mr. BALL. When you went to work there, did you work at the building on +the corner of Houston and Elm? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. The first time I went there I was hired on at +the other warehouse, the lower part of Houston Street. + +Mr. BALL. By lower part, do you mean north of the main building? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. Down further, the big white building. + +Mr. BALL. That is sort of a warehouse? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You went to work there. That is about a block, a block and a +half north? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. A block and a half. + +Mr. BALL. North of the corner of Houston and Elm? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And how long did you work at that place? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I worked there until business began to get slow. I +think that was--it was before November. I think it was some time during +October. I am not sure. + +Mr. BALL. And what did they put you to work at at that time? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. They called me up to help lay a floor on the fifth floor, +they wanted more boards over it. As I say, business was slow, and they +were trying to keep us on without laying us off at the time. + +So I was using the saw, helping cut wood and lay wood. + +Mr. BALL. You were laying a wood floor over the old floor? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. On the fifth floor? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And when you finished on the fifth floor, what did you do? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. After we finished on the fifth floor, we started to move +up to the sixth floor. But at the time we didn't complete the sixth +floor. We only completed just a little portion of it. + +Mr. BALL. By the time, you are talking about November 22d? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Before November 22d, how long had you been laying floor in +the building at Houston and Elm? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Before November 22d, I think we had been working on the +fifth floor, I think, about 3 weeks. I think altogether I had been up +there just about 4 weeks, I think. + +Mr. BALL. And how long had you been on the sixth floor before--how long +have you been working on the sixth floor before November 22d? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Let's see. Before November 22d, I think it might have +been 2 days--it might have been 2 days. I would say about 2 days, +approximately 2 days. + +Mr. BALL. Before you started to lay the floor, did you have to move any +cartons? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; we did. + +Mr. BALL. From what part of the sixth floor did you move the cartons? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. We moved cartons from, I believe, the west side of the +sixth floor to the east side of the sixth floor, because I think there +was a vacancy in there. + +Mr. BALL. Clear over to the east side? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Were there cartons stacked up between the west side and the +east side--were there cartons on the floor? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; there was. + +Mr. BALL. After you moved the cartons, then did you start laying the +floor? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. After we moved the cartons, we started laying the floor. + +Then we had to move the cartons. + +As we go we would move cartons to vacate the space, so we could lay the +floor. + +Mr. BALL. On November 22d, what time did you go to work? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. November 22d, I went to work at 8 o'clock. + +Mr. BALL. Were you late or on time that morning? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe I was on time that morning. I always get there +a little before eight. + +Mr. BALL. Did you know Lee Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I didn't know him personally, but I had seen him working. +Never did say anything to anyone. He never did put himself in any +position to say anything to anyone. + +He just went about his work. He never said anything to me. I never said +anything to him. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever have lunch with him? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No. + +The only time he would come into the lunchroom sometimes and eat a +sandwich maybe, and then he would go for a walk, and he would go out. +And I assume he would come back. But the only other time he would come +in and read a paper or nothing, and laugh and leave again. + +Mr. DULLES. But he would never say good morning or good evening? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. He never would speak to anyone. He was just a funny +fellow. I don't know what kind of a fellow he was. + +Mr. BALL. Did you notice what he read in the newspaper? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe one morning I noticed he was reading something +about politics, and as he was reading this he acted like it was funny +to him. He would read a paragraph or two, smile, or laugh, then throw +the paper down and get up and walk out. + +Representative FORD. Where did this go on? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. This was going on in what we call the domino room. This +is where we would eat our lunch and play dominoes. Some fellow would +bring newspapers, to read the sports or something. He never would read +the sports. + +Mr. BALL. The domino room is a little recreation room on the first +floor? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; it is. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you see the map there which has been marked Commission +Exhibit 362. Will you point on that map the location of the domino room? + +Mr. DULLES. Would it be easier if we put the map up there, and then +everybody could see. + +Mr. WILLIAMS. In the front entrance--I could explain the way I know the +best. + +As I said, this would be the main entrance from Elm Street. Well, +this would be--the domino room is in the same line with Mr. Shelley's +office, and Mr. Truly's office. The domino room would be right in +here. Because two bathrooms, a large one and a small one right in this +vicinity here. + +Mr. BALL. That is marked on the map--the domino room is marked on the +map as rec room, and the toilet is shown there? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. And there is a small one on the other side. + +Mr. BALL. That is on Exhibit 362. + +Mr. DULLES. What floor is this we are looking at now? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. That is the first floor. + +Representative FORD. And it was in the rec room or domino room where +you saw Oswald read the paper on this occasion? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. And you said he read some of it to you and smiled about it? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No; he didn't read it to me. We were waiting turns to +play dominoes, and I happened to glance over. And I just noticed what +he was reading. + +Mr. BALL. Now, this morning, did you see Oswald on the floor at any +time? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. This morning of November 22d? + +Mr. BALL. 22d. + +Mr. WILLIAMS. The morning of November 22d Oswald was on the floor. The +only time I saw him that morning was a little after eight, after I had +started working. As usual, he was walking around with a clipboard in +his hands, I believe he was. + +Mr. BALL. That is on the first floor? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes. He had a clipboard in his hand. + +Mr. BALL. That is the only time you saw him that morning? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. That is the only time I saw him that morning. I saw him +again between 11:30 and maybe 10 until 12:00. + +Mr. BALL. We will come to that in a moment. + +Where did you work that morning? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. That morning I worked on the sixth floor. I think we went +directly up to the sixth floor and I got there. + +Mr. BALL. And how many were working on the sixth floor with you? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe there were five. + +Mr. BALL. What are their names? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, Bill Shelley, Charles Givens, and there was a +fellow by the name of Danny Arce. + +Mr. BALL. He is a Mexican boy? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes. And a fellow by the name of Billy Lovelady, and +myself. And there was a fellow that came up--his name was Harold +Norman. He really wasn't working at the time, but there wasn't anything +to do, he would come around to help a little bit, and then back down. + +Mr. DULLES. Was he in the employ of the company? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; he had been working there at the time about 2 years, +I think. + +Mr. DULLES. But he wasn't on this particular detail on the sixth floor +that you are speaking of? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, he had been helping us on the fifth floor. When the +orders would come in, he would go down and help with the orders, and +when he didn't have anything else to do he would come back and help us +move stock around. + +I think that was him. + +Mr. BALL. What part of the sixth floor were you working that morning? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. On the west side. + +Mr. BALL. Were you moving stock or laying floor that morning? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. We were doing both. + +Mr. BALL. You were doing both? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. The west side of the sixth floor--you mean the whole west +side, or was there a certain part--northwest or southwest or middle? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe it was the whole west side, because we had to +go from window to window--from the elevator to the front window facing +Elm Street--we were laying the floor parallel. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald on the sixth floor that morning? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I am not sure. I think I saw him once messing around with +some cartons or something, back over the east side of the building. But +he wasn't in the window that they said he shot the President from. He +was more on the east side of the elevator, I think, messing around with +cartons, because he always just messed around, kicking cartons around. + +Mr. BALL. What was his job? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. His job was an order filler. + +Mr. BALL. What do you mean by that? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I mean by that an order filler--when orders come in for +the State schools mostly, from Austin, he would take the orders and +fill the orders. + +If the orders called for a certain amount of books, he would fill that +order, and turn it in to be checked, to be shipped out. + +Mr. BALL. You say he would fill the order. He would go and get books? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. He would get books. As an order filler you had access to +all the floors, all seven floors. + +Mr. BALL. And were the cartons that you are talking about containers of +books? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, they were. + +Mr. BALL. Would a checker--would an order filler go to the different +floors and take books out of cartons? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. The order filler would have to, in order to +fill the order--he would have to move around to each floor, and take +the books that he needs. + +Mr. BALL. Then where would he take the books? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Down to the first floor. + +Mr. BALL. And what was on the first floor? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. The first floor is where the checkers, the freight, and +all--they are checking the books to go out, and also where they wrap +the books. + +Mr. BALL. And were there certain men down there wrapping books? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Certain men wrapping, checking, weighing, et cetera. + +Mr. DULLES. Did you have a schedule somewhere posted up so that you +knew which books were on which floor when an order came in? You would +know whether to go to the sixth floor or what floor to go to get the +particular books that were wanted? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, as I remember, I don't know too much about the +building. + +Mr. DULLES. You were not in the order filling business? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; not in that department. + +At the other building. I was just transferred to that building. + +I don't think you really had any schedule to go by, or anything to show +you where the books were. You just asked the older fellows that had +been there were certain books--if you are looking for a certain book, +they would tell you where to find it. + +Mr. BALL. This morning, when you think you saw Oswald on the sixth +floor, can you tell us about where he was? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, as I said before, I am not sure that he was really +on the sixth floor. But he was always around that way. In the place I +think I saw him was as the east elevator come up to the sixth floor, he +was on that side of the elevator. + +Mr. BALL. I have here a diagram of the sixth floor which I will have +marked as Exhibit 483. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 483 for +identification.) + +Mr. BALL. First of all, this is Houston Street, and the top is +north--east and west. Here is Elm Street. + +Mr. WILLIAMS. This would be the east elevator. + +Mr. BALL. This is the east elevator, west elevator and the stairway. + +Now, can you take this and show us about where your men were working +laying floor on that sixth floor? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I would say---- + +Mr. BALL. First of all, you take this pencil and put it down there, and +then we will make the markings afterwards. + +Mr. WILLIAMS. This is the west side of the building. + +Mr. BALL. The area where you were laying floor. Make the outside limits +of the area. + +Mr. WILLIAMS. We were working in this area down there like that. + +Mr. BALL. In other words, from there to the west, or where? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. We were working from the west coming this way, coming to +the east. And we had got about just so much. + +Mr. BALL. Well, let's draw a dark line down there. This marks the area +that you saw? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You had already laid floor from the west side to the dark +line? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And you were working right around in the dark line area, were +you? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. That morning? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, take your pencil and show us about where it was that you +saw Oswald that morning. + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I think I saw Oswald somewhere around in this vicinity. +As I was up by this other elevator, I think one time I saw him over +there. I am not really sure. + +Mr. BALL. You have drawn a line here. This is a sort of general area +where you say you saw Oswald, is that right? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. We will mark that as "O". That is on the north side of the +floor near the east elevator. + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. We will mark that "O". + +Now, these lines you have marked show your area where you were working. + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. We will mark that W-1 and W-1. + +Mr. DULLES. Mr. Williams, were all the boxes of books moved out of this +area while you were working, or as you finished a part of it, were some +boxes put back in? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. To begin with, I think we were working on the wall first. +I don't think we moved too many books in this area. I think we just +moved them out and right back in, as I remember. + +But I think after we got a little further over, I think we had to +move some books. We had to move these books to the east side of this +building, over here, and those books--I would say this would be the +window Oswald shot the President from. We moved these books kind of +like in a row like that, kind of winding them around. + +Mr. DULLES. That is moving them from the west towards the east of the +building? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. The window was here? + +Mr. BALL. That is right. + +Mr. DULLES. Any other questions on this? + +Mr. BALL. About what time of day do you think it was you saw Oswald, if +you can remember? If you can't remember, don't guess. + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I cannot remember. + +Mr. BALL. What time did you knock off work for the lunch hour? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, approximately--between 11:30 to 12, around in +there. I wouldn't say the exact time, because I don't remember the +exact time. + +Mr. BALL. What time do you usually quit for lunch? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. We always quit about 5 minutes before time. + +During the rush season we quit about 5 minutes before time and washup. + +Mr. BALL. Wash your hands and face before you eat lunch? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. That is right. + +Mr. BALL. You say quit 5 minutes before time. What is the time? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Five before 12. + +Mr. BALL. Did you quit earlier this day? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe this day we quit about maybe 5 or 10 minutes, +because all of us were so anxious to see the President--we quit a +little ahead of time, so that we could wash up and we wanted to be sure +we would not miss anything. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did you go downstairs? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. We took two elevators down. I mean, speaking as a group, +we took two down. + +Mr. BALL. Was there some reason you took two down? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. We always had a little kids game we played racing down +with the elevators. And I think one fellow, Charles Givens, had the +east elevator, and me, and I think two or three more fellows had the +west elevator. And we was racing down. + +Mr. BALL. Who was driving the west side elevator? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't remember exactly who was. + +Mr. BALL. You were not? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't think I was. I don't remember. + +Mr. BALL. Who was driving the east side elevator? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I think that was Charles Givens. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did something happen on the way down--did somebody yell +out? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; on the way down I heard Oswald--and I am not sure +whether he was on the fifth or the sixth floor. But on the way down +Oswald hollered "Guys, how about an elevator?" I don't know whether +those are his exact words. But he said something about the elevator. + +And Charles said, "Come on, boy," just like that. + +And he said, "Close the gate on the elevator and send the elevator back +up." + +I don't know what happened after that. + +Representative FORD. Had the elevator gone down below the floor from +which he yelled? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; I believe it was. I assume it was the fifth or the +sixth. + +The reason I could not tell whether it was the sixth or the fifth is +because I was on the opposite elevator, and if you are not thinking +about it it is kind of hard to judge which floor, if you started moving. + +Representative FORD. The elevator did not go back up to the floor from +which he yelled? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Did he ask the gate be closed on the elevator? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I think he asked Charles Givens--I think he said, "Close +the gate on the elevator, or send one of the elevators back up." + +I think that is what he said. + +Mr. McCLOY. That is in order that he would have an elevator to come +down when he wanted to come down? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. On the 23d of November 1963, you talked to two FBI agents +according to the record I have here, Bardwell Odum and Will Griffin, +and they reported that you said that as they were going down, that you +saw Lee on the fifth floor. + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I told him the fifth or the sixth. I told him I wasn't +sure about it. + +Mr. BALL. And were you sure at that time? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. About which floor it was? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No; I wasn't. + +Mr. BALL. Are you sure today? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I am not sure today. + +Mr. BALL. But you think it was the fifth or the sixth floor? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Are you sure it was Oswald you talked to? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I am sure it was Oswald. I didn't talk to him. + +Mr. BALL. But you heard him? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I heard him. + +Mr. BALL. You went down to the first floor. + +What did you do? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. We went down to the first floor. I think the first thing +I did, I washed up, then I went into the domino room where I kept my +lunch, and I got my lunch, came back out and went back up. + +Mr. BALL. Did you carry your lunch that day? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; I did. + +Mr. BALL. Do you usually carry your lunch to work? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; I do. + +Mr. BALL. That was your habit, carrying your lunch? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And that day, on November 22d, how did you carry your lunch +from home to work? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I carried my lunch from home to work in a brown paper +bag. I believe it was size No. 6 or maybe 8--paper bag. + +Mr. BALL. Number 6 or 8 size paper bag? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Small bag? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Like you get in the grocery store? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did you have in your lunch? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I had a chicken sandwich. + +Mr. BALL. Describe the sandwich. What did it have in it besides chicken? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, it just had chicken in it. Chicken on the bone. + +Mr. BALL. Chicken on the bone? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. The chicken was not boned? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. It was just chicken on the bone. Just plain old chicken. + +Mr. BALL. Did it have bread around it? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, it did. + +Mr. BALL. Before you went upstairs, did you get anything to drink? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I got a small bottle of Dr. Pepper from the Dr. Pepper +machine. + +Mr. BALL. Did you have anything else in your lunch besides chicken? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I had a bag of Fritos, I believe it was. + +Mr. BALL. Anything else? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No; I believe that was all. + +Mr. BALL. You say you went back upstairs. Where did you go? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I went back up to the sixth floor. + +Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the sixth floor? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was +going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he +wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by +the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the +sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor. + +Mr. BALL. Did anybody go back? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Nobody came back up. So I just left. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you eat your lunch? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I ate my lunch--I am not sure about this, but the third +or the fourth set of windows, I believe. + +Mr. BALL. Facing on what street? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Facing Elm Street. + +Mr. McCLOY. What floor? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Sixth floor. + +Mr. DULLES. You ate your lunch on the sixth floor? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. And you were all alone? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did you sit on while you ate your lunch? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. First of all, I remember there was some boxes behind me. +I just kind of leaned back on the boxes first. Then I began to get a +little impatient, because there wasn't anyone coming up. So I decided +to move to a two-wheeler. + +Mr. BALL. A two-wheeler truck, you mean? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I remember sitting on this two-wheeler. + +By that time, I was through, and I got up and I just left then. + +Mr. DULLES. How much of the room could you see as you finished your +lunch there? Was your view obstructed by boxes of books, or could you +see a good bit of the sixth floor? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I couldn't see too much of the sixth +floor, because the books at the time were stacked so high. I could +see only in the path that I was standing--as I remember, I could not +possibly see anything to the east side of the building. + +But just one aisle, the aisle I was standing in I could see just about +to the west side of the building. So far as seeing to the east and +behind me, I could only see down the aisle behind me and the aisle to +the west of me. + +Representative FORD. Have you ever had any trouble with the law at all? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. + +Representative FORD. No difficulty as far as the law is concerned? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I have never been inside of a courthouse before. + +Mr. BALL. I have an exhibit here marked 484. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 484 for +identification.) + +Mr. BALL. Do you recognize that? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I recognize that. + +Mr. BALL. What do you see? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I see a two-wheeler, a Dr. Pepper bottle, and some boxes +in the windows. + +Mr. BALL. And is that anywhere near where you were sitting? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; that is the exact place I was sitting. + +Mr. BALL. That is the two-wheeler you were sitting on? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, when you were on the two-wheeler, as you were sitting +there, did you have a view, could you see down towards the southeast +corner? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I couldn't see anything as I remember there. +About the only thing that I could see from there would be just the top +edge of the window, because the boxes were stacked up. + +Mr. BALL. The boxes were stacked up high? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Let me show you another picture here. + +Mr. DULLES. You are not introducing that at this time? + +Mr. BALL. I will. I am going to introduce them all. + +Let's go back to the diagram, which is 483. Could you mark on this +diagram the window that is shown in this picture 484--that is, the +place where you were sitting and eating your lunch? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. That would be facing Elm Street. I would say right around +in this. + +Mr. BALL. In other words, you are marking here something between--some +area between the third and the fourth window. + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You are not able to tell exactly? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No; I am not. + +Mr. BALL. The witness has drawn a red rectangle to show the approximate +area which runs from about the center of the second row of windows from +the southeast corner over to about the fourth pane of windows. + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I would say about right in here, third or fourth. + +Mr. BALL. Third or fourth? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you have made two marks, so I will identify the last +mark. Between the third and fourth, is that right? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. We will mark the rectangle, and we will mark it "W-3" and +"W-4" the end of the lines. + +Mr. McCLOY. What time of day was this, when you were eating your lunch? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. About 12. + +Mr. McCLOY. Just 12? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, as you looked towards the southeast corner from where +you were sitting, could you see the windows in the southeast corner? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. In the southeast--that is--the southeast. I really don't +remember if I seen anything--it would be just the top edge of the +window, as I remember. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see anyone else up there that day? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No, I did not. + +Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I was there from--5, 10, maybe 12 minutes. + +Mr. BALL. Finish your lunch? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. No longer than it took me to finish the chicken +sandwich. + +Mr. BALL. Did you eat the chicken? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, I did. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you put the bones? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't remember exactly, but I think I put some of them +back in the sack. Just as I was ready to go I threw the sack down. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do with the sack? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I think I just dropped it there. + +Mr. BALL. Anywhere near the two-wheeler? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I think it was. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do with the Dr. Pepper bottle? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Just set it down on the floor. + +Mr. BALL. There is a pop bottle that you see in the picture, 484--does +that look like anything like the pop bottle that you were drinking from +that day? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe that was the bottle--I believe. I am not sure. +But it looks like it. + +Mr. BALL. Did you leave the bottle somewhere near the point shown of +the bottle shown on 484? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I am really not sure about it. I don't think I left it +there. I am not sure. I think I left it sitting up on top of the boxes, +right to the side of the two-wheeler. As I remember--I am not sure +about it. It is possible that I could have put it there. + +Mr. BALL. Your memory is that the Dr. Pepper bottle was left on top of +the boxes? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Beg pardon? + +Mr. BALL. Your memory is that you left the Dr. Pepper bottle on top of +some of the cartons? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember. I am not sure. + +Mr. BALL. It is shown there on the floor. + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go when you left there? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I went down to the fifth floor. + +Mr. BALL. How did you get down there? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I took an elevator down. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't go down the stairs? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Which elevator did you take? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I took the east elevator down. + +Mr. BALL. Is that the one that is worked with a hand---- + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. That is the one with the one gate, and works +with the hand pedal. + +Mr. BALL. How does the other one work? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. The other one worked by push button. You have two gates +to pull. That is the one you can pull two gates on and it will come +back up by itself. The east side elevator won't come up unless someone +is operating. + +Mr. BALL. You took the elevator from the sixth floor to the fifth floor? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you intend to go when you left the sixth floor? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I intended to stop on the fifth floor, and if there +wasn't anyone there, I intended to get out of the building, go outside. + +Mr. BALL. Well, you stopped on the fifth floor. Why? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Beg pardon? + +Mr. BALL. Why did you stop on the fifth floor? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. To see if there was anyone there. + +Mr. BALL. Did you know there was anyone there before you started down? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I thought I heard somebody walking, the windows +moving or something. I said maybe someone is down there, I said to +myself. And I just went on down. + +Mr. BALL. Did you find anybody there? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember, when I was walking up, I think Harold +Norman and James Jarman--as I remember, they was down facing the Elm +Street on the fifth floor, as I remember. + +Mr. BALL. Now, I want to call your attention to another report I have +here. + +On the 23d of November 1963, the report of Mr. Odum and Mr. Griffin, +FBI agents, is that you told them that you went from the sixth floor to +the fifth floor using the stairs at the west end of the building. Did +you tell them that? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I didn't tell them I was using the stairs. I came back +down to the fifth floor in the same elevator I came up to the sixth +floor on. + +Mr. BALL. You did? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, also, on January 14th, did you remember talking to a +couple of agents named Carter and Griffin? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I can't remember their names, but I am sure I did. + +Mr. BALL. You talked to a good many of them? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Well, they reported here that you went down to the fifth +floor, and you did so by going down on the west elevator. + +Mr. WILLIAMS. The east elevator. The reason I was able to determine +whether it was the east elevator is because I think when you questioned +us the other day, the other fellows--I told you I didn't remember which +elevator first. But the other fellows said they had the west elevator. +There are only two elevators. If they are sure they had the west +elevator up, that only leaves the east elevator. + +Mr. BALL. When you got to the fifth floor and left the elevator, at +that time were both elevators on the fifth floor? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Both west and east? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir, as I remember. + +Mr. BALL. The other day, when I talked to you in Dallas, on Friday 20 +March---- + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And at that time were you able--did you remember which +elevator it was? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Which elevator I had? + +Mr. BALL. What you had come down from six to five on. + +Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember, I first said I wasn't sure. After the +fellows said they brought the west elevator up, I said I must have the +east elevator. + +Mr. BALL. Is it fair to say now that you don't have any definite memory +as to whether it was the east or west elevator? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I believe that would be true. + +Mr. BALL. But you did bring an elevator up? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. BALL. Now, when you came down there and got off that elevator, did +you notice that the other elevator was also on that floor? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I didn't notice it. + +Mr. BALL. Did you, later? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; as I remember. + +Mr. BALL. You don't remember? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't remember. + +Mr. BALL. When you got off the elevator, you went over to the front of +the building, the Elm Street side. + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. BALL. And you saw Norman and---- + +Mr. DULLES. Mr. Ball, could we get the time element? + +Mr. BALL. I am going to bring that in. + +Mr. DULLES. All right. I will bide my time. + +Mr. BALL. You went over to the front of the building, did you? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And you saw your two friends, Norman and Jarman? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. You had known them before? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, do you know what time that was? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I do not know the exact time. + +Mr. BALL. It was---- + +Mr. WILLIAMS. It was after I had left the sixth floor, after I had +eaten the chicken sandwich. I finished the chicken sandwich maybe 10 or +15 minutes after 12. I could say approximately what time it was. + +Mr. BALL. Approximately what time was it? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Approximately 12:20, maybe. + +Mr. BALL. Well, now, when you talked to the FBI on the 23d day of +November, you said that you went up to the sixth floor about 12 noon +with your lunch, and you stayed only about 3 minutes, and seeing no one +you came down to the fifth floor, using the stairs at the west end of +the building. + +Now, do you think you stayed longer than 3 minutes up there? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I am sure I stayed longer than 3 minutes. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember telling the FBI you only stayed 3 minutes up +there? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I do not remember telling them I only stayed 3 minutes. + +Mr. BALL. And then on this 14th of January 1964, when you talked to +Carter and Griffin, they reported that you told them you went down to +the fifth floor around 12:05 p.m., and that around 12:30 p.m. you were +watching the Presidential parade. + +Now, do you remember telling them you went down there about 12:05 p.m.? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I remember telling the fellows that--they asked me first, +they said, "How long did it take you to finish the sandwich?" I said, +"Maybe 5 to 10 minutes, maybe 15 minutes." Just like I said here. I +don't remember saying for a definite answer that it was 5 minutes. + +Mr. BALL. Well, is it fair to say that you do not remember the exact +time now? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You do remember, though, that you ate your lunch and drank +your pop, your Doctor Pepper, before you came down? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Were you there any length of time before the Presidential +parade came by? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, sir, on the fifth floor? + +Mr. BALL. On the fifth floor, yes, with your two friends, Norman and +Jarman. + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I was there a while before it came around. + +Mr. BALL. You were at what window? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I believe we was on the east side of the window, +and I think Hank was--I think he was directly under the sixth floor +window where Oswald was supposed to have shot the President from. And +I think I was a window over. And I think James Jarman was two or three +windows over. + +Mr. BALL. I will show you a picture here, which is 482. Do you see +yourself in that picture? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I am right here. + +Mr. BALL. All right. Draw a dark line down there towards you and put an +arrow on the end. I will mark that W; the arrow W on 482 points to you, +Bonnie Ray Williams. + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Is that about the way you were sitting in the window? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And you were watching the parade? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't remember whether I was watching the parade here +or not. But I was in the window, that window. + +Mr. BALL. Do you recognize the man in the window to the right of us as +we look at the picture? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; that is Harold Norman. + +Mr. BALL. Now, here is another photograph which is 480, giving more of +the front of the building. Can you tell us in what window your friend +Jarman was sitting, or watching? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe this is James Jarman right here. + +Mr. BALL. All right. Draw a line down to that on 480. Draw an arrow to +the window. + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. We will mark that W on 480. + +Now, were you boys sitting down or standing up? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Are you referring to the picture? + +Mr. BALL. No, I am talking about your memory now as to what you were +doing at the time you were watching for the Presidential parade. + +Mr. WILLIAMS. At the time we were watching for the President's parade, +I believe I was in a squat position. But I don't remember whether I was +on my knees or just squatting on the balls of my feet. + +Mr. BALL. When the parade went by, how were you--squatting? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. As the parade went by, I was in a squat position. + +Mr. BALL. Last Friday you went up to the sixth floor, or the fifth +floor with us, and a photographer, and you three men got into position, +did you not? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. To have your pictures taken. + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; we did. + +Mr. BALL. I can only ask you about your position. First of all, we will +mark this as 485. + +(The photograph was marked Commission Exhibit No. 485 for +identification.) + +Mr. BALL. I will mark this photograph as 486. + +(The photograph was marked Exhibit No. 486 for identification.) + +Mr. BALL. 485 is a picture of three men. You were there when that +picture was taken? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Who are the men who are there? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. First of all in the corner of the east of the building is +Harold Norman. Secondly, the fellow over from me, that would be James +Jarman. + +Mr. BALL. Who is the man in the center? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. That is me. + +Mr. BALL. Is that about the way you were sitting when you watched the +parade? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe it was at the time. + +Mr. BALL. Now, I show you 486 and who are the men in that position? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. In this picture here, 486--this fellow--the other fellow +in the corner, in the east of the building, is Harold Norman. I am in +the window next to him. + +Mr. BALL. Your back is to the picture? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Is that about the position you were in when the President's +parade went by? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe it was. + +Mr. BALL. Now, what do you remember happened when the President's +parade went by? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, to the best of my ability, what I remember was +first coming off of--I believe it was Main Street--well, two motorcycle +policemen came around. I think it was two or maybe three. They came +around first. And then I think the President's car followed. And I +believe a car was behind it carrying the Vice President, as I remember. +I am not sure about it. President Kennedy was sitting in the back seat. +I believe his wife was in the back seat. I believe Governor Connally +was sitting in the front seat of the car as it was going down the +street--I believe---- + +Mr. McCLOY. What street are you talking about there? Are you talking +about Main Street, Houston Street, or Elm Street? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. First of all, as I say, they was coming off of Main +Street. Then as it turned the corner, the corner which I am speaking +of, most people refer to it as Elm Street. But it is not really Elm +Street. I believe it is the start of the turnpike, because Elm Street +runs parallel with the building, but comes to a dead end. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see the parade come up Houston, north on Houston? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. BALL. And then you saw it turn to the left in front of your +building? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now tell us what happened after the President's car had +passed your window. + +Mr. WILLIAMS. After the President's car had passed my window, the last +thing I remember seeing him do was, you know--it seemed to me he had +a habit of pushing his hair back. The last thing I saw him do was he +pushed his hand up like this. I assumed he was brushing his hair back. +And then the thing that happened then was a loud shot--first I thought +they were saluting the President, somebody--even maybe a motorcycle +backfire. The first shot--there was two shots rather close together. +The second and the third shot was closer together than the first shot +and the second shot, as I remember. + +Mr. BALL. Now, was your head out the window? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I could not say for sure. I do not remember. + +Mr. BALL. Did you notice--where did you think the shots came from? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, the first shot--I really did not pay any attention +to it, because I did not know what was happening. The second shot, it +sounded like it was right in the building, the second and third shot. +And it sounded--it even shook the building, the side we were on. Cement +fell on my head. + +Mr. BALL. You say cement fell on your head? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Cement, gravel, dirt, or something, from the old +building, because it shook the windows and everything. Harold was +sitting next to me, and he said it came right from over our head. If +you want to know my exact words, I could tell you. + +Mr. BALL. Tell us. + +Mr. WILLIAMS. My exact words were, "No bull shit." And we jumped up. + +Mr. BALL. Norman said what? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. He said it came directly over our heads. "I can even hear +the shell being ejected from the gun hitting the floor." But I did not +hear the shell being ejected from the gun, probably because I wasn't +paying attention. + +Mr. BALL. Norman said he could hear it? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. He said he could hear it. He was directly under the +window that Oswald shot from. + +Mr. BALL. He was directly under. He told you as he got up from the +window that he could hear the shells ejected from the gun? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; he did. + +Mr. BALL. After he made the statement that you mentioned, he thought +it came from overhead, and you made some statement, did Jarman say +anything? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I think Jarman, he--I think he moved before any of us. +He moved towards us, and he said, "Man, somebody is shooting at the +President." And I think I said again. "No bull shit." And then we all +kind of got excited, you know, and, as I remember, I don't remember him +saying that he thought the shots came from overhead. But we all decided +we would run down to the west side of the building. + +Mr. BALL. You ran down to the west side of the building? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. Ran down to the west side? You mean you were still +on the fifth floor? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; we were on the fifth floor, the east side of +the building. We saw the policemen and people running, scared, +running--there are some tracks on the west side of the building, +railroad tracks. They were running towards that way. And we thought +maybe--well, to ourself, we know the shots practically came from over +our head. But since everybody was running, you know, to the west side +of the building, towards the railroad tracks, we assumed maybe somebody +was down there. And so we all ran that way, the way that the people was +running, and we was looking out the window. + +Mr. BALL. When the cement fell on your head, did either one of the men +notice it and say anything about it? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I believe Harold was the first one. + +Mr. BALL. That is Hank Norman? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe he was the first one. He said "Man, I know +it came from there. It even shook the building." He said, "You got +something on your head." And then James Jarman said, "Yes, man, don't +you brush it out." By that time I just forgot about it. But after I got +downstairs I think I brushed it out anyway. + +Mr. BALL. Jarman is called Junior? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Well, did Norman say anything about hearing the bolt of the +rifle? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't remember him saying anything about it. + +Mr. BALL. But you heard him say he could hear the cartridges? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I heard Harold Norman--pardon me, I thought you were +saying James Jarman. + +Mr. BALL. Did Norman say anything about the bolt? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes. He said he could hear the rifle, and it sounded like +it was right above. He said he could hear the rifle being ejected, the +shells hitting the floor. + +Mr. BALL. But you could not hear this? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No; I could not hear it. + +Mr. BALL. That was an old floor, wasn't it? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; it was. + +Mr. BALL. Could you see light through the floor from the fifth to the +sixth floor as you would look above your window? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time, that day of November 22d, I did not +notice that. But the other day when you were questioning me, even after +the thick new floor that was put over the old floor on the sixth floor, +well, you still could see light. And the new floor extended a little +beyond the old floor. So therefore I would say that you could see light +much more when the old floor was there. + +Mr. BALL. When you were there the other day, you looked up through a +crack in the ceiling of the fifth floor? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Could you see the new floor? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. You could. You could see daylight through. + +Mr. BALL. Now, where was that crack with reference to the wall of the +fifth floor? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. With reference to the wall of the fifth floor, the crack +that I was speaking about was directly over my head, and also directly +over Norman's head. + +Mr. BALL. And that would be where the floor would ordinarily make a +joint with the wall? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. With the wall. + +Mr. BALL. You say you ran down to the west window. + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. From where you were? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. First of all---- + +Mr. BALL. I will take this same diagram---- + +Mr. WILLIAMS. First of all we made a stop before we got to the last +stop that we was when the policeman came up. + +Mr. BALL. Yes. That is where I want you to show me now, where you made +the stop. This is the fifth floor diagram. + +We will mark the fifth floor diagram as Exhibit 487. + +(The document so described was marked Commission Exhibit No. 487 for +identification.) + +Mr. BALL. This is Elm Street on 487, and here are the windows where you +have shown us you were standing. + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, will you show us the direction that you ran and also +point to the window? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. The direction that we ran after we heard the shots was--I +would say I was in about this position here, this window. And we left +like this. Harold was coming from here. + +Mr. BALL. Let me show you the diagram. Here are these two pair of +windows that are shown here on this diagram. This is the corner. Here +is the next window, and here is the next window. + +Now, take the pencil and show where you were and where you ran to. + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I was right here. + +Mr. BALL. Mark an X, and bring it on down, and show us. + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I left here, and I came like this. The other fellows +followed like this. We all was running this direction here. And I +believe when we got to this point here, we stopped. And I am not sure, +but I think James Jarman, he raised this window, this corner window +here, and we all huddled in this corner window. + +Mr. BALL. We will mark that window Y. And then you ran from X to Y, you +three men? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Was the window open or closed? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I think it was closed at the time. + +Mr. BALL. Was it opened then? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe James Jarman opened the window. + +Mr. BALL. Now, the other day, when you were up here, you three men went +to that window and stood there and had your picture taken, did you not? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. This window which you have shown as Y, in 487, the diagram of +the fifth floor. + +Mr. WILLIAMS. That's right. + +Mr. BALL. Here is 488. + +(The document so described was marked Commission Exhibit No. 488 for +identification.) + +Mr. BALL. Is that the window? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; it is. + +Mr. BALL. And is that about the way you were standing as you looked out +to the west? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. That is about the way we were standing. + +Mr. BALL. Did you run fast towards the west? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. We did. We moved rather fast. We was at a trotting pace. + +Mr. DULLES. Was that to get a better view of the President's party in +the car? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't think--we knew the President had been +shot at at that time. The car was gone, you know. It has speeded up +and left. But the people, as I said before, the policemen and people +were running towards the tracks. The tracks are at this side of the +building. We wondered why they were running that way. + +Mr. DULLES. How did you know the President was shot at this time? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. We heard the shots, and we assumed somebody had shot him. +And we decided to run down that way. + +Representative FORD. Why didn't you go up to the sixth floor? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I really don't know. We just never did think about it. +And after we had made this last stop, James Jarman said, "Maybe we +better get the hell out of here." And so we just ran down to the fourth +floor, and came on down. We never did think about it, going up to the +sixth floor. Maybe it was just because we were frightened. + +Mr. DULLES. Did you know the President had been hit? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, personally I did not know he had been hit, but I +think Harold--I remember--I don't know whether he said or not--but I +think he said he saw him slump. So from that I think we all assumed he +had been shot at. + +Mr. DULLES. One of the other two? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I think it was. + +Mr. DULLES. Said that? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I believe that is what he said. Anyway, we knew +he had been shot at. + +Mr. BALL. After you left this corner window in the southwest corner +that we have shown you the picture of as 488, where did you go? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Then we moved over to another window on the west side of +the building. + +Mr. BALL. Let's go back to the diagram of the fifth floor, 487, and you +show me where that window was. + +Mr. WILLIAMS. It was one of these windows, I believe it was this window +here, I believe. Maybe it was this window. I would say this window. + +Mr. BALL. All right. We will mark that Z--window Z. + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And the other day, Friday, March 20th, when we were in +Dallas, you three men went to that same window, didn't you? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And you had your picture taken? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. That is 489. + +(The described document was marked Commission Exhibit No. 489 for +identification.) + +Mr. BALL. Is that about it? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Why did you go there and look in that direction? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Because, as I said before, the policeman was running +toward the tracks. + +Mr. BALL. The tracks shown in this picture? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I believe that is the parking lot right here. + +Mr. BALL. And the tracks are shown in there, aren't they? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And were people running towards the tracks? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; the policemen were. + +Representative FORD. Mr. Ball, I hate to interrupt, but I do have to +go to a call of the House. I wonder if I could ask one question right +here. I dislike breaking up the sequence. + +Mr. Williams, when did you first know that the President's motorcade +would come by the Texas School Book Depository? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I never did know the exact time. But I think my +wife had mentioned it before that Friday. She had told me, because I +never did have too much time reading the paper. And that morning, that +Friday morning, we was on the sixth floor, and I think some fellows +mentioned it to me again, some of the fellows working with me. + +Representative FORD. You did not know the motorcade was coming by your +building until Friday morning? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I didn't know the exact way it was coming, +because I hadn't been reading the papers. + +Representative FORD. You had not read the paper the day before? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. About the only thing I would read in the paper in the +mornings before I leave home would be the sports. + +Representative FORD. Was it discussed in the building that morning of +November 22d that the motorcade was coming by the Texas School Book +Depository? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe I heard a couple of fellows say--I don't +remember exactly who it was--but I believe I heard them say the +motorcade was coming around that way. + +Representative FORD. But it was not until Friday that you personally +knew it was coming by the building? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. I would like to ask one question here. + +When you were on the sixth floor eating your lunch, did you hear +anything that made you feel that there was anybody else on the sixth +floor with you? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I didn't hear anything. + +Mr. DULLES. You did not see anything? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I did not see anything. + +Mr. DULLES. You were all alone as far as you knew at that time on the +sixth floor? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. During that period of from 12 o'clock about to--10 or 15 +minutes after? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I felt like I was all alone. That is one of the +reasons I left--because it was so quiet. + +Mr. McCLOY. When you saw Oswald that morning, was he carrying any +package? Did you see any bundle or package with him? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I didn't see anything other than the clipboard +with the orders on it that he was filling, as I remember. + +Mr. McCLOY. How many shots did you hear fired? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I heard three shots. But at first I told the FBI I only +heard two--they took me down--because I was excited, and I couldn't +remember too well. But later on, as everything began to die down, I +got my memory even a little better than on the 22d, I remembered three +shots, because there was a pause between the first two shots. There was +two real quick. There was three shots. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything upstairs at all? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I didn't hear anything. + +Mr. BALL. Any footsteps? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. Probably the reason we didn't hear anything is +because, you know, after the shots we were running, too, and that was +making a louder noise. + +Mr. BALL. You really ran? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; we ran. And that was probably making a lot of +noise. + +Mr. BALL. Now, I'm going to hold this up. I don't know whether +everybody can see it or not---- + +Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question in connection with your last +question? + +Did you hear either of the elevators going up or down while you were +eating your meal? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. DULLES. You didn't hear the elevators at all? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. If an elevator had come to that floor, would you have heard +it then? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. That all depends---- + +Mr. DULLES. Were they noisy elevators? The operation of the doors and +so forth? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. The elevator that I came up on to the sixth +floor, if you would listen--say you were listening for the boss, you +could hear, because you would be paying attention. The elevator is +worked by hand pedal. When you release the hand pedal it makes a noise. +It bangs--or maybe you can hear the old elevator when it is first +coming up. But at that time I did not hear anything. + +(At this point, Representative Ford left the hearing room.) + +Mr. BALL. I would like to point out over in the northwest corner there +is a stairwell. And the elevators are shown here. And the witness has +placed himself at point "Z" on Exhibit 487, which is near a pair of +west windows. + +Now, you are oriented there, are you not? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. All right. When you were at "Z" were you able to see the +stairwell? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Why? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. You could not see the stairs from that point because this +other--this is the stairway, and it has some shelves made out of some +old wooden boxes. Those old wooden boxes come out to about right here. +And they come out maybe 5 feet, even more than that, past the stairway. +And that would block your view of the stairway from that point. + +Mr. BALL. Mark it in there with your pencil. + +Mr. WILLIAMS. These are the stairs. I would say the bookcase would come +out like that. + +Mr. BALL. The shelf we will mark "WX", both ends of the shelf. How high +is the shelf? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Pretty high. + +Mr. BALL. Does it go to the ceiling? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember, they do not go exactly to the ceiling. But +I am 6 feet, and they are way over me, I think. + +Mr. BALL. Now, could you see all of the elevators from there? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, by me being the tallest, I saw---- + +Mr. BALL. I am not going into what you saw. But could you see either +elevator from where you were standing at "Z"? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; you could see this pretty plainly. + +Mr. BALL. You mean the west elevator? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Could you see the east elevator? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; you could not see it exactly. + +Mr. BALL. Now, when you were questioned by the FBI agents, talking to +Mr. Odum and Mr. Griffin, they reported in writing here that while you +were standing at the west end of the building on the fifth floor, a +police officer came up on the elevator and looked all around the fifth +floor and left the floor. Did you see anything like that? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I was up there I saw a motorcycle +policeman. He came up. And the only thing I saw of him was his white +helmet. + +Mr. BALL. What did he do? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. He just came around, and around to the elevator. + +Mr. BALL. Which elevator? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe it was the east elevator. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody with him? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I did not. + +Mr. BALL. You were only able to see the top of his helmet? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You could only see the top of his helmet? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; that is the only thing I saw about it. + +Mr. BALL. They reported that you told them on the 23d of November that +you and Hank, that is Hank Norman, isn't it---- + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And Junior--that is Junior Jarman--were standing where they +would have seen anyone coming down from the sixth floor by way of the +stairs. Did you tell them that? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I could not possibly have told him that, because you +cannot see anything coming down from that position. + +Mr. BALL. And that you did not see anyone coming down. + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. An elephant could walk by there, and you could +not see him. + +Mr. BALL. That day we were out there, Friday, March 20th, we took some +pictures. + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I show you 490. + +(The document described was marked Exhibit No. 490 for identification.) + +Mr. BALL. We took a picture from where you were standing towards the +stairs. Do you recognize that? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What is that? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. This is the side we were on. I believe these are the +bookshelves I was speaking of. + +Mr. BALL. That is the ones that hide the stairwell? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. That is right. + +Mr. BALL. And the camera is--you saw where the camera was set, didn't +you? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You saw these pictures taken? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where was the camera? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. The camera was located about the exact place I was +standing looking out this window. + +Mr. BALL. That would be "Z" on 487? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. That's right. + +Mr. BALL. And was pointed toward what direction? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. It was pointed towards the stairway and the bookcase. + +Mr. BALL. The way you would have been looking on that day? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Right. + +Mr. BALL. And this shows those shelves. + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I have two other pictures I would like to show, and I would +like to show the Commissioners all three at the same time. + +Now, do you recall that we had you three men stand near the stairwell? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, on this picture here, on 487, that would be what +location? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. On this picture here, that would be about right in here. + +Mr. BALL. Near the "up", is that right? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I would like to have the Commissioners note that--that the +man was standing near the "up" part of the stairwell. + +We took your pictures three in a row, is that right? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. That is right. + +Mr. BALL. And then do you recall the picture was taken? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I recall this picture. This picture was taken +from the position we were standing, and it gave the view of--the only +thing you would be able to see from this point. And this picture here +was James Jarman, which we were standing shoulder to shoulder. + +Mr. BALL. Also were the cartons piled at that time so that--as they +were here--on the day, November 22d, were the cartons piled somewhat +like they are here? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. They were piled somewhat like here, because they have +been rearranged since that time. + +Mr. BALL. Now, in both pictures, 492 and 490, you see two windows, do +you not? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And those windows are shown on the diagram of the fifth +floor, 487, as where? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Right here. + +Mr. BALL. The windows next to the west elevator? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And in this picture, are you able to see either elevator? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. In this picture? + +Mr. BALL. This picture--490 and 492--are you able to see either +elevator? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; you cannot see exactly the elevator. + +Mr. BALL. Now, in this picture, 491, where is the downstairs? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. The downstairs come right in here. + +Mr. BALL. Are you able to see the opening of the downstairs from this +view, 492? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And the thing that obstructs your view is this shelving, is +that right? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; that's right. + +Mr. DULLES. How long has that shelving been there--for quite a long +while? Or was it put there recently? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I think it was there from the time I started, as far as I +can remember. + +Mr. DULLES. That goes back to the time you were first employed there? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. At the time I came to the building. + +Mr. DULLES. So it could not have been put up a day or two before. + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear anyone going up or down the stairs? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No, I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Did you pay any attention to that? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. As you were standing at the window, did you hear any +footsteps? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Up above--hear any movement up above? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't remember. + +Mr. BALL. Were you paying any attention whether or not there was anyone +up above? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; we wasn't paying any attention. + +Mr. BALL. Now, in this FBI report that we have dated the 23d of +November 1963, the report that you said that someone might have been +coming down on the elevator and you would not have noticed that. Did +you say that? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I think I remember saying that. + +Mr. BALL. After you stood at the west window for a while, what did you +do? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. After we stood at the west window for a while, we decided +to go down. Then we left. + +Mr. BALL. How did you go down? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. By stairs. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. We went to the fourth floor first. Then we paused for a +minute there, where we saw these women looking out of the window. Then +we decided to go down to the first floor, and we ran on down. + +Mr. BALL. When you got to the first floor, what did you see there? + +Mr. McCLOY. How did you get to the first floor? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. By stairs. + +Mr. DULLES. There were some people on the fourth floor? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I remember seeing maybe two or three women +standing in the window, looking out the window. + +Mr. DULLES. Looking out the window? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. Which stairway did they take, west or east? + +Mr. BALL. There was only one stairway, and that is the one in the +corner. + +Did you run down stairs? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; we ran. + +Mr. BALL. When you got to the first floor, what did you see? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. When we arrived to the first floor, the first thing I +noticed was that the policemen had rushed in. I think some firemen came +in with a water hose. And then the next thing that happened, these +detectives, or maybe FBI--anyway, they stopped us all and they said, +"Do you work here?" And we told them yes. And they took our name, +address, and they searched everybody. And then the other fellow--I +think one fellow asked whether we had been working upstairs. I think +we told him yes. They got out all the fellows I think that was working +on the sixth floor at the time, and they took us all down to the +courthouse, I think, and we had to fill out some affidavits and things. + +Mr. BALL. You made out an affidavit there? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go out of the building shortly after you came +downstairs? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. They wouldn't let anybody out of the building. + +Mr. BALL. How long after you came down from the first floor were you +taken over to the Police Department? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I couldn't give you the exact time, but it wasn't long. + +Mr. BALL. You can't give me any estimate in minutes? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I would not want to say. + +Mr. DULLES. Did you see Lee Oswald at any time during this period? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't remember seeing him. + +Mr. BALL. Were the police with you? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; they were. + +Mr. BALL. Were your two friends with you, Jarman and---- + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No; they wasn't with me. First I think they took me and +another fellow, Danny--they took us in one car. Then they took some +other fellows in another car, and then another car, I think. + +Mr. BALL. You were with Danny Arce and one or two police officers? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Anybody else? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. That's all. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know when Norman and Jarman went out? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I don't think Norman and Jarman came +down right then. They brought Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady, a fellow +by the name of Jack Dougherty, and Charles Givens later on, they +brought them right behind us. + +Mr. BALL. When you left the first floor with the officers, was Norman +still there? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; he was in the building. + +Mr. BALL. And was Jarman still there? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I would like to offer all of the exhibits that we marked so +far into evidence. + +Mr. DULLES. Could you give me the numbers? + +Mr. BALL. I think they run 483 to 492, inclusive. + +Mr. DULLES. Was 481 introduced? + +Mr. BALL. If 481 and 482 were not, we offer them. 483 is a diagram of +the sixth floor. We offer that. Everything this morning from 477 to 492 +we offer in evidence. The last number is 492. + +Mr. DULLES. All exhibits subsequent to the last exhibit noted in the +record up to and including 492 will be admitted. + +(The material heretofore marked Exhibits Nos. 481 through 492, +inclusive, previously marked for identification, were received in +evidence.) + +Mr. McCLOY. I have some questions. + +When you came downstairs, do you remember seeing a man named Brennan, +and did a man named Brennan identify you downstairs? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't remember that. + +Mr. McCLOY. No one that you know--no one said, "This is the man I have +seen on the fifth floor window?" + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. Were you physically kept from leaving the building when you +got downstairs? Did you try to go out of the building? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I wasn't trying to go out of the building +because there wasn't any use of trying to, because at the time we +arrived on the first floor, I heard an officer shout out and say, "No +one leave the building." + +Mr. McCLOY. Have you got any appreciation of the time that elapsed +between your hearing the first shot and the time that you got finally +down to the first floor, after you had been on the fifth floor and the +fourth floor? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I could not give you any time. + +Mr. McCLOY. Well, you did not give us any time. Do you have any +recollection now of about how long that was? Was it 15 minutes, 10 +minutes, 20 minutes? How long did it take from the time that you were +looking out that window and you heard that shot until you did get down +to the first floor? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I could say approximately 15 minutes, maybe a +little before then, maybe after. I could not say exactly. + +Mr. DULLES. Do you know what time it was when you went off and left for +the police station? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I could not give you the exact time. + +Mr. McCLOY. Do you know whether or not anybody got out of the building +before the police could get there? Did any of your friends or the +people you were working with, did you hear whether any of them had left +the building before the building was closed? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I heard Mr. Truly--he said that--he mentioned +that--he said, "Where is Lee?" That is what everybody called him. +"Where is Lee?", he said, and therefore I assume he did not know +where Lee was, that he was out of the building, because everybody +else was there. And there was another colored fellow by the name of +Charles Givens. He wasn't in the building at the time. He was downtown +somewhere. + +Mr. McCLOY. Had he been at the building at the time of the +shooting--Givens? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't believe he had. + +Mr. DULLES. What did Mr. Truly say about Lee not being there? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. The only thing I heard him say is--I think an officer +asked him, "Is everyone here?" And he said, "Where is Lee?"--like that, +you know. + +Mr. DULLES. Mr. Truly said that? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. Do you know the name of the first policeman that accosted +you, who stopped you? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. Are you familiar with firearms? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. Do you ever do any hunting? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I never go hunting. + +Mr. McCLOY. But you have heard shots fired? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I heard my grandfather try a gun out, something +like that. + +Mr. McCLOY. You were not in the army? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I have never been in the army. + +Mr. McCLOY. I think that is all I have. + +Mr. DULLES. I have one question. + +You have referred to three explosions that--one you thought was a +backfire or a firecracker. + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Was there any difference in the sound of those three +explosions? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. As far as I remember, there wasn't any difference in the +sound. It was just the time between the sound. + +Mr. McCLOY. As I heard you testify, you said there was a larger pause +between the first and the second shot than there was between the second +and the third. + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. Let me get this clear. Did you see the President crumple +after the shot? Did you see the President hit? + +Mr. WILLIAMS. Personally, I did not see him, because I was kind of +jumping. + +Mr. DULLES. Are there any other questions? + +Thank you very much, and we appreciate your coming. We will recess at +this time until 2 o'clock this afternoon. + +(Whereupon, at 12:40 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +Afternoon Session + +TESTIMONY OF HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN RESUMED + + +The President's Commission reconvened at 2:05 p.m. + +Mr. McCLOY. The purpose of today's hearing is to have the testimony of +Mr. Brennan here and you gentlemen. + +Mr. Williams has already appeared before us, and Mr. Norman and Mr. +Jarman and also Mr. Truly who will be on the stand later. + +You were all witnesses, you were all in the vicinity of the Texas +School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination +of President Kennedy, and we are going to ask you to give us your +knowledge of the facts such as they come within your knowledge of that +event and we will have some questions that we will wish to ask you. + +Mr. BALL. The record will show that Harold Norman, whose nickname +is Hank, is present and Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, whose +nickname is Junior. Mr. Brennan is also. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, you testified here this morning, is that +correct? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Right. + +Mr. McCLOY. You are still under oath, Mr. Brennan. + +Mr. BELIN. I believe that you testified that you thought you recognized +two of the people that you saw looking out of the fifth floor of the +School Book Depository Building you thought you recognized outside of +the building sometime after the assassination, is that correct? + +The two people that you saw, are they any of these three people here? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I believe it is the one on the end and this one here, +I am not sure. + +Mr. BELIN. By that you would mean---- + +Mr. BRENNAN. I don't know which of those two. + +Mr. BALL. Let's identify. + +Mr. BELIN. Which person do you mean, you mean Mr. Norman sitting +opposite? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I believe he was one of them. + +Mr. BELIN. And you believe it was Mr. Jarman together? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Jarman. + +Mr. BELIN. Were they with some policeman as they came out of the +building or in custody of some plainclothesman? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I don't believe they were. + +Mr. BELIN. You saw them together come out of the building? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I don't believe they were. I don't recall seeing any +officer bring them out or with them. + +Mr. BELIN. Now you do not believe then that it was Mr. Williams? + +Mr. BRENNAN. No; I won't say for sure. I can't tell which of those two +it was. + +Mr. BELIN. In other words, you say that you can't, when you say you +can't tell whether it was Mr. Williams or Mr. Norman, did you just see +one person or two? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I saw two but I can't identify which one it was. + +Mr. BELIN. Could it have been neither one of these persons that you saw? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I think it was one of them. I think it was this boy on the +end. + +Mr. BELIN. You thought it was Mr. Norman. And what about Mr. Jarman? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I believe it was him, too. Am I right or wrong? + +Mr. BALL. I don't know. + +Mr. BRENNAN. I explained that to you this morning. + +Mr. BALL. I understand. + +Any questions? + +Mr. McCLOY. Did you recognize anyone in this room that you saw in the +fifth floor window while you were sitting on the masonry opposite the +school book depository? + +Mr. BRENNAN. That is the two boys that I am speaking of now. + +Mr. McCLOY. That you are speaking of now? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +Mr. McCLOY. You saw these two men in the fifth floor window and you saw +them again on the first floor? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Coming out of the building down the stairway, coming out +on the street, those were the only two people I could identify. + +Mr. BELIN. I hand you---- + +Mr. BRENNAN. I recall seeing three people with you I---- + +Mr. BELIN. I hand you Exhibit 477 which you testified to this morning +was a recent picture taken of the Texas School Book Depository Building +on March 20. This is you sitting on that concrete wall? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. At first I believe this morning you thought that you saw one +person or two people at the point marked B, and then you later said it +was to the window which would be to the---- + +Mr. BRENNAN. Left. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, let's talk about directions. This direction here would +be to the east and this direction here would be to the west? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. Would it be a window to the east or west? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I believe it was a window to the east. + +Mr. BELIN. So you saw, you believe you saw two people in this window +here to the east of the window that you first marked B? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I am not positive. + +Mr. BELIN. You are not positive? + +Mr. BRENNAN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Mr. McCloy, may I have permission to ask this question of +this witness? + +Mr. McCLOY. Very well. + +Mr. REDLICH. You stated that you saw two employees walking down the +steps of the building? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall whether the two employees that you saw +walking down the steps of the building were the same two employees +that you saw on the window, in the window on the fifth floor at the +easterly most end of the building? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; as far as on the fifth floor and at one of these two +windows. The one I circled or this window here. + +Mr. REDLICH. You mean two of the people that you---- + +Mr. BRENNAN. At one of the windows I saw two, two of those people, +employees that came down. + +Mr. REDLICH. But you are not prepared to state which of these three +possible windows? + +Mr. BRENNAN. That is right. + +Mr. REDLICH. By three, I mean the two windows to the east, plus the one +window which is circled and marked with a B. + +Mr. BRENNAN. Nothing makes me think that they were in this window but I +am in question whether it was this window or this window. + +Mr. REDLICH. And of the two people that you saw, it is possible you +are saying that one might have been in the window marked B and another +might have been in a window to the east? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Thank you. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, are you basing your recollection on what you +saw during the moments that the shots were fired or on what you saw +when you observed these windows prior to the time the motorcade arrived? + +Mr. BRENNAN. What I saw prior. There was no significance to the fact at +all. In other words, there is a little difference in your memory there +on this. + +Mr. BALL. No questions. + +You may be excused, Mr. Brennan. + +You two men can also be excused and we will call you in a few moments, +Mr. Jarman. + +Mr. REDLICH. We don't need Mr. Williams at all. + +Mr. BALL. We don't need you at all. + +Mr. REDLICH. We may want him back. + +Mr. BELIN. Don't get too far away. + + +TESTIMONY OF HAROLD NORMAN + +I will ask you if you will please stand and hold up your right hand. + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give in this case will be +the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. NORMAN. I do. + +Mr. BALL. Mr. Norman. + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where do you live? + +Mr. NORMAN. 4858 Beulah Place, Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. BALL. Are you married? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. How old are you? + +Mr. NORMAN. 26. I will be. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you born? + +Mr. NORMAN. Clarksville, Tex. + +Mr. BALL. Were you raised in Clarksville? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Go to school there? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How far did you go to school? + +Mr. NORMAN. I graduated there. + +Mr. BALL. From high school? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. In Clarksville? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of work did you do after you got out of school? + +Mr. NORMAN. Well, I remember working in Salina. I did a car washing job +at the McElroy Chevrolet Co., and after I left there I came to Dallas +and I started working at the depository, the School Book Depository. + +Mr. BALL. That was about what year did you start working there? + +Mr. NORMAN. In 1961, I believe. + +Mr. BALL. 1961? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How long did you work there? + +Mr. NORMAN. Well, I think this coming October would have made 3 years. + +Mr. BALL. And you work there now? + +Mr. NORMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where do you work now? + +Mr. NORMAN. The Foxboro Co. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of business is that? + +Mr. NORMAN. Engineer instrumentation. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do? + +Mr. NORMAN. Porter. + +Mr. BALL. When did you leave the Texas School Book Depository for this +new job? + +Mr. NORMAN. I left during the Christmas holidays and the New Year's +leave after we got off for New Year's. + +Mr. BALL. In November 1963, this is this last fall, what kind of work +were you doing at the Texas School Book Depository? + +Mr. NORMAN. I was employed as an order filler. + +Mr. BALL. Is that the same kind of a job that Lee Oswald had? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you know him? + +Mr. NORMAN. No; just as an employee, that is all. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't know him before he came to work there? + +Mr. NORMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you get acquainted with him after he was there? + +Mr. NORMAN. No. Just knew his name. I mean, you know, he wouldn't talk +to anybody so I didn't---- + +Mr. BALL. He didn't talk to anybody? + +Mr. NORMAN. No. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever engage him in conversation at the time he was +there? + +Mr. NORMAN. No, sir. I just, you know, speak to him, that is all. I +wouldn't engage in conversation. + +Mr. BALL. Are you the boys that use clipboards? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. The order fillers? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Somebody gives you orders by way of papers? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What do you do after you get an order on a paper? + +Mr. NORMAN. We had a different publisher in the building, and each +individual, he had a publisher that he would take, maybe I would take +to a publisher and the other orders would and we would fill orders and +bring them down to the first floor for them to be checked and shipped +out. + +Mr. BALL. You have to go up and get the books out of cartons, do you? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. If we didn't have enough down in the bins down on the +first floor we would have to go upstairs, to complete the orders. + +Mr. BALL. Do you fill some of your orders from the first floor? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. How many floors did you go to that morning yourself, November +22? Can you remember that? + +Mr. NORMAN. I believe I went as far as the fifth floor that morning. + +Mr. BALL. That is as far---- + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever go to the sixth floor that day, that morning? + +Mr. NORMAN. I can't--yes, I went up that morning during the time I +think they were laying the floor up there when I went up there. + +Mr. BALL. Did you help them? + +Mr. NORMAN. No; I was just up there shooting the breeze. + +Mr. BALL. Now what about Lee Oswald. Do you know what publisher he +filled orders for? + +Mr. NORMAN. I knew Scott-Foresman. + +Mr. BALL. Scott-Foresman. + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. That was the publisher assigned to him? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. Well, I don't know if he was assigned to him but he +filled, you know. + +Mr. BALL. He filled those orders? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. You say then he filled Scott-Foresman book orders? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know where those books were kept? + +Mr. NORMAN. The majority of them were on the sixth floor. + +Mr. BALL. They were? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And did you also keep a stock of Scott-Foresman books on the +first floor? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What time did you get to work on the morning of November the +22d? + +Mr. NORMAN. I got there I would say about 5 minutes of 8 o'clock, 5 +minutes until 8 in the morning. + +Mr. BALL. You weren't late? + +Mr. NORMAN. No; I wasn't. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see Lee Oswald when you got to work? + +Mr. NORMAN. No; I don't recall seeing him when I got to work. + +Mr. BALL. Did you remember seeing him at any time that morning? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes; around about 10 or 10:15, somewhere in the +neighborhood of that. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you see him? + +Mr. NORMAN. Over in the bins by the windows, I mean looking out, you +know, at Elm Street, towards Elm Street. + +Mr. BALL. On what floor? + +Mr. NORMAN. The first. + +Mr. BALL. Looking out on Elm through windows, is that right? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. I was looking out the window. He happened to come +by to fill orders. + +Mr. BALL. Did he say anything to you? + +Mr. NORMAN. No; he didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Did you say anything to him? + +Mr. NORMAN. No. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see him at any time after that? + +Mr. NORMAN. No; no more. I don't recall seeing him any more that day. + +Mr. BALL. What time did you quit for lunch? + +Mr. NORMAN. I believe I quit around 11:45, I think. + +Mr. BALL. And what did you do after you quit? + +Mr. NORMAN. Well, I went in, washed up and I---- + +Mr. BALL. When you go in and wash up, where did you go to wash up? + +Mr. NORMAN. In the men's bathroom. + +Mr. BALL. Is that bathroom near the domino room or off the domino room? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes; that is the one off the domino room. + +Mr. BALL. It is the one near the domino room? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes; one near the domino room. + +Mr. BALL. Right next to it? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. After you washed up, what did you do? + +Mr. NORMAN. Well, I got my lunch, I ate my lunch in the domino room. + +Mr. BALL. Did you bring your lunch from home that day? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes; I believe I did. + +Mr. BALL. And in what kind of a package did you bring it? + +Mr. NORMAN. A brown paper sack, paper bag. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you keep your lunch or leave your lunch from 8 in +the morning until you got it at noon? + +Mr. NORMAN. I left it in the window of the domino room. + +Mr. BALL. Did you notice any other packages in that window that morning? + +Mr. NORMAN. I can't say that I noticed any that morning but I know that +some of the fellows did keep their lunches in there. + +Mr. BALL. Did you notice anything, any unusual package in there that +day? + +Mr. NORMAN. No; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. You got your lunch and did you eat your lunch? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes; I ate my lunch. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you when you ate your lunch? + +Mr. NORMAN. In the domino room, as I recall. + +Mr. BALL. Who was with you at that time? + +Mr. NORMAN. I can't remember who ate in the lunchroom, I mean the +domino room, with me. + +Mr. BALL. Did some other employees eat there? + +Mr. NORMAN. I think there was someone else in there because we usually +played dominoes in there but that particular day we didn't play that +morning. + +Mr. BALL. Why didn't you play that morning? + +Mr. NORMAN. Well, didn't nobody show up there to play like the guys +usually come in to play. + +Mr. BALL. You usually play dominoes during the noon hour? + +Mr. NORMAN. Noon hour and the break period. + +Mr. BALL. After you ate your lunch, what did you do? + +Mr. NORMAN. I got with James Jarman, he and I got together on the first +floor. + +Mr. BALL. Where was James Jarman when you got together with him? + +Mr. NORMAN. He was somewhere in the vicinity of the telephone, I +believe. I am not for sure. + +Mr. BALL. Out near the bins? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What do you call James Jarman? + +Mr. NORMAN. Junior. + +Mr. BALL. And you and Junior did what? + +Mr. NORMAN. We went outside. + +Mr. BALL. You went out the front door, did you? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. That is the Elm Street? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you stand? + +Mr. NORMAN. We stood on the Elm Street sidewalk. + +Mr. BALL. On the sidewalk? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. We didn't go any further than that point. + +Mr. BALL. What time was it that you went out there? + +Mr. NORMAN. Oh, I would say, I don't know exactly, around 12 or 12:10, +something like that. + +Mr. BALL. Who was standing with you when you were standing on the +sidewalk, on the Elm Street sidewalk? + +Mr. NORMAN. I remember it was Danny Arce. + +Mr. BALL. And who else? + +Mr. NORMAN. I remember seeing Mr. Truly and Mr. Campbell. They were +standing somewhere behind us, not exactly behind us but they were back +of us. + +Mr. BALL. Anybody else? + +Mr. NORMAN. Well, I believe Billy Lovelady, I think. He was sitting on +the steps there. + +Mr. BALL. He was? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. That is about all the employees I remember seeing out +there. There were more people out there. + +Mr. BALL. Did you stay there? + +Mr. NORMAN. Well, we stayed there I believe until we got the news that +the motorcade was coming down, let's see, is that Commerce, no Main, +because Commerce--we went back in the building, James Jarman and I. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go when you went in the building? + +Mr. NORMAN. We got the east elevator. No; the west. + +Mr. BALL. The west elevator? + +Mr. NORMAN. The west elevator. And went to the fifth floor. + +Mr. BALL. The west elevator is the one you use the push button on? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes; the one you pull the gate. + +Mr. BALL. That is right. It is a push button elevator. + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And you went up to the fifth floor? + +Mr. NORMAN. Fifth floor. + +Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the fifth floor? + +Mr. NORMAN. Usually, one reason was you usually fill orders, I fill +quite a few orders from the fifth floor and I figured I could get, you +know, a better view of the parade or motorcade or whatever it is from +the fifth floor because I was more familiar with that floor. + +Mr. BALL. And what did you and Junior do after you got off the elevator? + +Mr. NORMAN. We walked around to the windows facing Elm Street and I +can't recall if any were open or not but I remember we opened some, two +or three windows ourselves. + +Mr. BALL. Did somebody join you there? + +Mr. NORMAN. Bonnie Ray, I can't remember if he was there when we got +there or he came later. I know he was with us a period of time later. + +Mr. BALL. And then did he come down before the President's motorcade +came by? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes; he was with us before the motorcade came by. + +Mr. BALL. Did you move around any from one window to another before the +motorcade? + +Mr. NORMAN. Well, if I did I didn't move no further than those three +windows that were open in the front there. I didn't move any further +than that. + +Mr. BALL. I show you some pictures here. This is Commission Exhibit No. +482. Do you recognize anybody in that window? + +Mr. NORMAN. That is myself and that is Bonnie Ray Williams. + +Mr. BALL. "Myself" is pointed to as to the window in the extreme +southeast corner of the fifth floor, is that right? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And Bonnie Ray is in the window next to you? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. I show you 480. Do you see the window in which you were +looking? + +Mr. NORMAN. That window is where I was looking. + +Mr. BALL. In other words, you were looking in the extreme southeast +corner? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Put over here a red arrow which shows the window from which +you were looking. + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Here is 482. Do you see your picture in that window? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. The same picture? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Point out your picture on 482. + +Mr. NORMAN. That is myself. + +Mr. BALL. I will point that out with a red arrow on 482. Now were you +standing up or sitting down? + +Mr. NORMAN. I was sitting. I wasn't at all standing up. + +Mr. BALL. At the time the President's motorcade went by, how were you +sitting? + +Mr. NORMAN. I believe I wasn't on my knees I don't think, but I was in +a hunched over position somewhat like this. + +Mr. BALL. Last Friday afternoon, that is March 20, you and Junior +Jarman and Bonnie Ray Williams went up on the fifth floor with me, +didn't you? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And a photographer? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And you took a position; did you? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What position did you take at the window? First of all, what +did I ask you to do? What position did I ask you to take? + +Mr. NORMAN. I believe you told us to take the position that we thought +we were in during the time of the motorcade. + +Mr. BALL. And do you recognize this picture, 486? Do you show in the +picture? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; that is myself there. + +Mr. BALL. You are sitting there looking out a window. How does that +picture compare with what you remember as to your position when the +President's motorcade went by? + +Mr. NORMAN. Well, I don't think--I think I was facing the window more +straight during that time, I mean the motorcade, that I am in this +position here. + +Mr. BALL. That picture shows you looking out the window down the +street, is that right? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And this is a picture of Bonnie Ray also, isn't it? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Now you saw the President go by, did you? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What happened then? + +Mr. NORMAN. About the time that he got past the window where I was, +well, it seems as though he was, I mean you know, brushing his hair. +Maybe he was looking to the public. + +Mr. McCLOY. Saluting? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. With which arm? + +Mr. NORMAN. I believe it was his right arm, and I can't remember what +the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard +the shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or +something, and then another shot and I believe Jarman or someone told +me, he said, "I believe someone is shooting at the President," and I +think I made a statement "It is someone shooting at the President, and +I believe it came from up above us." + +Well, I couldn't see at all during the time but I know I heard a third +shot fired, and I could also hear something sounded like the shell +hulls hitting the floor and the ejecting of the rifle, it sounded as +though it was to me. + +Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear? + +Mr. NORMAN. Three. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not you said anything to the men +then as to whether or not you heard anything from above you? + +Mr. NORMAN. Only I think I remember saying that I thought I could hear +the shell hulls and the ejection of the rifle. I didn't tell I think I +hear anybody moving, you know. + +Mr. BALL. But you thought, do you remember you told the men then that +you thought you heard the ejection of the rifle? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And shells on the floor? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Falling? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything as to where they thought the shots +came from? + +Mr. NORMAN. Well, I don't recall of either one of them saying they +thought where it came from. + +Mr. BALL. But you did? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And you said you thought it came from where? + +Mr. NORMAN. Above where we were, above us. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see any dust or dirt falling? + +Mr. NORMAN. I didn't see any falling but I saw some in Bonnie Ray +Williams' hair. + +Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything about it? + +Mr. NORMAN. I believe Jarman told him that it was in his hair first. +Then I, you know, told him it was and I believe Jarman told him not to +brush it out his hair but I think he did anyway. + +Mr. BALL. After that happened, what did you do? + +Mr. NORMAN. Well, we ran to the farthest window facing the expressway. + +Mr. BALL. The farthest window, is that right? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. I have here a diagram of this fifth floor. + +Mr. McCLOY. May I interrupt there. + +Mr. BALL. Go right ahead. + +Mr. McCLOY. You spoke about seeing the President sort of slump over +after the first shot? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes; I believe the first. + +Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the President hit on any subsequent shots? + +Mr. NORMAN. No; I don't recall seeing that. + +Mr. BALL. Here is a diagram of the sixth floor. + +Mr. NORMAN. The sixth floor? + +Mr. BALL. Of the fifth floor rather, which is Commission's 487, and +this is the southeast corner window. To what window did you and your +two friends run? + +Mr. NORMAN. This is the south. This is the window we were in. We came +to this last, I believe it is the next to the last or the last window +on this end here, right here. + +Mr. BALL. And the other day when you were up on the fifth floor with a +photographer, you ran to that window, did you? + +Mr. NORMAN. Well, we ran to the window, we thought it was the window we +ran to. + +Mr. BALL. And you opened that window? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And had your picture taken? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Here is 485. Is that the window as you remembered it that you +ran to? + +Mr. NORMAN. I can't say it was that particular window that day but it +was between these two windows here. + +Mr. BALL. One of the two windows? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. This is marked Y here on 487, is that correct? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Why did you run down to that window? + +Mr. NORMAN. Well, it seems as though everyone else was running towards +the railroad tracks, and we ran over there. Curious to see why +everybody was running that way for. I thought maybe---- + +Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything about going up to the sixth floor? + +Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember anyone saying about going up to the sixth +floor. + +Mr. BALL. Then did you leave that window that you have marked Y on 487? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And you went to what window? + +Mr. NORMAN. To the west window. + +Mr. BALL. Look on the diagram and tell me what window you went to, as +you remember it? + +Mr. NORMAN. It was between this point here, these two right here. + +Mr. BALL. That is marked Z? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Is that correct? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do when you went to that window? + +Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember if we raised the window or not but I +remember looking out the window that day. + +Mr. BALL. Here is a picture 489 taken last Friday when you were with me +on that floor? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Do you show in the picture? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Is that the window you looked out of? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I believe that is the one. + +Mr. BALL. What did you look at when you looked out that window? + +Mr. NORMAN. We saw the policeman, and I guess they were detectives, +they were searching the empty cars over there. I remember seeing some +guy on top of them. + +Mr. BALL. On top of the cars? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. They were going through there. + +Mr. BALL. You saw police officers searching cars over on the railroad +tracks? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And how long did you stay at that window? + +Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember, but it wasn't very long. + +Mr. BALL. Then where did you go? + +Mr. NORMAN. We ran down to the first floor. + +Mr. BALL. As you were at the fifth floor, looking west as shown in +Exhibit No. 489, were you able to see the stairwell? + +Mr. NORMAN. No. + +Mr. BALL. Why? + +Mr. NORMAN. Because there is a row of bins there that prevents you +standing in a position that I was in to keep you from seeing it. + +Mr. BALL. There is 492. Does that show the row of bins? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes; the row of bins. + +Mr. BALL. They block off the stairwell. + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember that we tried an experiment when you were +there by putting you three men in line and then taking a picture to see +if we could see any one of you? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. This is a picture 491. That is your picture, isn't it? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where are you? + +Mr. NORMAN. In the middle. + +Mr. BALL. And who is that on the end? + +Mr. NORMAN. Which end? Oh, this is Bonnie Ray Williams. + +Mr. BALL. Who is this one? + +Mr. NORMAN. James Jarman. + +Mr. BALL. And then a picture, do you remember another picture was +taken, 492? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I remember that picture. + +Mr. BALL. Can you see anyone in that picture? + +Mr. NORMAN. I see one person. + +Mr. BALL. Can you make him out? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. I recognize him as James Jarman. + +Mr. BALL. Jarman, the one on the end? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now did you see any police officer come up on that floor? + +Mr. NORMAN. I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't. + +Mr. NORMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Or did you see Mr. Truly come up? + +Mr. NORMAN. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Or did you hear any elevator operator? + +Mr. NORMAN. No; I don't recall. + +Mr. BALL. Going up or down? + +Mr. NORMAN. No, sir; I don't recall anyone. + +Mr. BALL. When you were brought to the first floor or when you came to +the first floor how did you go down there? + +Mr. NORMAN. We came down the stairway. I remember we came down the +stairway. + +Mr. BALL. When you got to the first floor did someone talk to you, +police officers? + +Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember a police officer talking to me as soon as +we got down there. I don't. + +Mr. BALL. Did anyone talk to you later? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Who? + +Mr. NORMAN. I guess they were Secret Service men. But I know they +talked to us. + +Mr. BALL. Did they take you over to the police station later? + +Mr. NORMAN. No; they didn't carry me to the police station. + +Mr. BALL. When did you leave the place? + +Mr. NORMAN. Oh, I would say somewhere around 2 o'clock, somewhere in +the vicinity of that. + +Mr. BALL. Who did you leave with? + +Mr. NORMAN. Mr. James Jarman. I can't remember who. + +Mr. BALL. From the time that you went down on the first door until you +left the building to go home did you leave the building at all? + +Mr. NORMAN. No; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you stay? + +Mr. NORMAN. They kept us on the first floor. + +Mr. BALL. You did make a statement later to the Secret Service, didn't +you? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. I have here a document 493, which is a copy of a statement +made by this witness, which I now mark 493. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 493, for +identification.) + +Mr. BALL. The document that I have here shows the date 4th of December +1963. Do you remember having made a statement to Mr. Carter, Special +Agent of the Secret Service, on that day? + +Mr. NORMAN. I can't remember the exact date but I believe I remember +Mr. Carter. + +Mr. BALL. I want to call your attention to one part of the statement +and I will ask you if you told him that: + +"Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds +later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from +directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to +the floor. I could also hear the bolt action of the rifle. I also saw +some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that +whoever had fired the shots was directly above me." + +Did you make that statement to the Secret Service man? + +Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember making a statement that I knew the shots +came from directly above us. I didn't make that statement. And I don't +remember saying I heard several seconds later. I merely told him that I +heard three shots because I didn't have any idea what time it was. + +Mr. BALL. I see. Did you tell them that you heard the bolt action of +the rifle? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And that you heard the expended cartridges fall to the floor? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes; I heard them making a sound. + +Mr. BALL. I would like to offer this into evidence. + +Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. + +(The document referred to, heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit +No. 493 for identification, was received in evidence.) + +Mr. McCLOY. You used the expression you heard the ejection. This refers +to the bolt action? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. McCLOY. Those are the same things? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; that is what I mean. + +Mr. McCLOY. That is what you meant by that? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What language did you use when you talked to the Secret +Service man, do you know? Did you say you heard the ejection or that +you heard the bolt action? Which did you use? + +Mr. NORMAN. I probably said the ejection. + +Mr. BALL. That is what you think you said? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. The same thing you said here? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember Friday that we conducted an experiment to see +whether or not you could hear? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. From the sixth floor? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And where did you put yourself in order to conduct the +experiment? + +Mr. NORMAN. In the same window. I may not have been in the same +position but I was in the same window. + +Mr. BALL. The same window? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And that window was open? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And the window, was the window on the sixth floor also open? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; they told me it was open. I didn't see it. + +Mr. BALL. And a Secret Service man went upstairs with a rifle, didn't +he? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What did you hear on the fifth floor? + +Mr. NORMAN. Well, I heard the same sound, the sound similar. I heard +three something that he dropped on the floor and then I could hear the +rifle or whatever he had up there. + +Mr. BALL. You could hear the rifle, the sound of an ejection? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear the sound of the bolt going back and forth? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I sure did. + +Mr. BALL. You could hear it clearly, could you? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now there has been a new floor put in on the sixth floor, +hasn't there? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. The day that you were there on November 22, what was the +condition of the ceiling and the floor of the sixth floor? + +Mr. NORMAN. I would say that you could see daylight through there +because during the times they put the plywood down you can see the +plywood, some portion of the plywood, so I would say you could see a +little daylight during that time. + +Mr. BALL. When you were there Friday afternoon, did you look up at the +ceiling from where you were sitting at the southeast window on the +fifth floor? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What could you see on the ceiling? + +Mr. NORMAN. There was one place I could see the plywood and then +another place you could still see a little daylight, I mean peering +through the crack. + +Mr. BALL. What about the joint where the upper floor or the floor of +the sixth and ceiling of the fifth floor comes against the wall. Could +you see daylight through there? + +Mr. NORMAN. Against the wall? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes; in one place you could see a small amount of daylight. + +Mr. BALL. Now the day of the experiment last Friday when you heard the +cartridges eject, the bolt action and the cartridges ejecting---- + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Was there any noise outside? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes; there was. + +Mr. BALL. What was it? + +Mr. NORMAN. There was a train and there were trucks and cars. + +Mr. BALL. Was there more noise or less noise on the day you conducted +the experiment last Friday, March 20, than on November 22, at 12:30? + +Mr. NORMAN. It was more noise last Friday than it was November 22. + +Mr. BALL. Was there any train going by on November 22? + +Mr. NORMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Were there any trucks going by on November 22? + +Mr. NORMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. + +Mr. McCLOY. How did you get your job at the Texas School Book +Depository? + +Mr. NORMAN. Well, as I remember the time that I told you before I used +to live in Salina and washing cars at the Chevrolet company I had a +friend that lived in Dallas and he was working down there, and he told +me that he thought that I could get a job down there, and that is how I +got familiar with the place. I did go by there and Mr. Truly gave me a +job. + +Mr. McCLOY. Were you getting better pay there than you had at your +former job? + +Mr. NORMAN. At the Chevrolet company? + +Mr. McCLOY. Yes. + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I was getting better pay there. + +Mr. McCLOY. Do you have any rough recollection of the amount of time +that passed between the time you heard the first shot and when you ran +down to the west end of the building and looked out the window there +and the time when you left the fifth floor and finally came down to the +first floor where the police officers were? Can you give me a general +estimate of about how much time that took? + +Mr. NORMAN. To come down from the fifth floor? + +Mr. McCLOY. Yes. From the time you first heard the shot and saw what +was going on in the motorcade and then ran down toward the western end +of the building and then as I understand your testimony, you left there +and went down to the--did you go down to the fourth floor first or did +you go all the way down? + +Mr. NORMAN. I believe we went all the way. + +Mr. McCLOY. Until you got down to the first floor, how much would you +say was the entire length of that time, from the first shot until you +got down on the first floor? + +Mr. NORMAN. Oh, I would say somewhere between 10 or 15 minutes, +somewhere like that. + +Mr. McCLOY. I don't think I have any other questions. + +Mr. BALL. I have one question. + +On the 26th of November, an FBI agent named Kreutzer advises us in a +report that he talked to you. Do you remember that? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You remember? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes; I remember talking to him. I don't know his name. + +Mr. BALL. He reports that you told him that you heard a shot and that +you stuck your head from the window and looked upward toward the roof +but could see nothing because small particles of dirt were falling from +above you. Did you tell him that? + +Mr. NORMAN. I don't recall telling him that. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever put your head out the window? + +Mr. NORMAN. No, sir; I don't remember ever putting my head out the +window. + +Mr. BALL. And he reports that you stated that two additional shots +were fired after you pulled your head back in from the window. Do you +remember telling him that? + +Mr. NORMAN. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. + +Mr. McCLOY. Have you ever had any difficulty with the law? Have you +ever been convicted of a crime? + +Mr. NORMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. At the time after you heard the shots, did you have any +thought that you might run upstairs and see if anybody was up there +where the shots were coming from there? + +Mr. NORMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. Did you feel that it might be dangerous to go upstairs? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. You testified that you had not seen Oswald except this one +occasion in the morning. Did you hear any of your friends or coworkers +say whether they had seen Oswald on that morning? + +Mr. NORMAN. Not until after---- + +Mr. McCLOY. After the assassination? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; that is the only time. + +Mr. BELIN. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +The CHAIRMAN. Did you see Brennan down there when you came downstairs? +Did you come out the front door? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I came out the front door and I remember seeing +Mr. Brennan. + +Mr. BELIN. About how long after the shooting was that? + +Mr. NORMAN. It wasn't very long because--I can't remember the time but +it wasn't too long a period of time, and I remember seeing him because +he had on a steel helmet, a little steel helmet. + +Representative FORD. Was he standing with another man and they called +you over? + +Mr. NORMAN. I don't know if he was exactly standing with another man, +but it was several people standing around there, and I remember him +talking and I believe I remember him saying that he saw us when we +first went up to the fifth floor window, he saw us then. I believe I +heard him say that, but otherwise I don't know if he was standing by. +There was quite a few people standing around there. + +Representative FORD. You were stopped and Mr. Brennan made these +comments? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I remember. + +Representative FORD. On the front entrance steps? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. Of the Depository Building? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes. + +The CHAIRMAN. Then did you go out of the building, away from the +building or come back? + +Mr. NORMAN. No, sir; we had to go back inside. + +The CHAIRMAN. You had to go back? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. In other words, you went out in front? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And then came back? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. After you had gone to the first floor? + +Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. Did law enforcement officers make you go back or +did you do it on your own initiative? + +Mr. NORMAN. I remember, I don't know if this is the only time or not, +but I remember the law enforcement saying not to let anybody leave from +the building and I can't remember if that is the time we went back in +the building or before or what. + +Mr. BALL. Who did you go out with? + +Mr. NORMAN. I know James Jarman and I went out. I can't remember. + +Representative FORD. May I ask did we get into the testimony enough of +his background and biography? + +Mr. BALL. Clear from where he was born, through high school and all his +jobs through high school. + +He is 26 years old, married, and never been in any trouble in his life. +I think that is all. + +Mr. McCLOY. Thank you, Mr. Norman. + +The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much for coming. + +Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + + +TESTIMONY OF JAMES JARMAN, JR. + +Mr. BELIN. Chief Justice Warren, this is Mr. Jarman. + +The CHAIRMAN. How do you do. Glad to see you. + +Mr. BELIN. Congressman Ford---- + +Mr. McCLOY. Would you hold up your right hand. Do you solemnly swear +that the testimony you give in this case will be the truth, the whole +truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. JARMAN. I do. + +Mr. BALL. The statement has been read to you as to the purpose of your +examination before the Commission? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Hasn't it, Mr. Jarman? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. State your name, please? + +Mr. JARMAN. James Jarman, Junior. + +Mr. BALL. What do they call you, Junior? + +Mr. JARMAN. Junior. + +Mr. BALL. Where do you live? + +Mr. JARMAN. 4930 Echo. + +Mr. BALL. Are you married? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What is your age? + +Mr. JARMAN. 34. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you born? + +Mr. JARMAN. Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. BALL. Have you lived there all your life? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes; I have. + +Mr. BALL. You still live there? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And did you go to school in Dallas? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes; I did. + +Mr. BALL. How far did you go through school? + +Mr. JARMAN. To the 10th grade and went to California in 1947 and stayed +there for about a year. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do in California? + +Mr. JARMAN. I was living with my aunt at the time. + +Mr. BALL. Did you work? + +Mr. JARMAN. No; I was still in school. + +Mr. BALL. What school did you go to? + +Mr. JARMAN. Alameda High. + +Mr. BALL. Then where did you go after you came back, after you left +California? + +Mr. JARMAN. I came back to Dallas. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go to school any more? + +Mr. JARMAN. No, I went into service. + +Mr. BALL. What year did you go in the service? + +Mr. JARMAN. 1948. + +Mr. BALL. How long were you in the service? + +Mr. JARMAN. I was in the service up until 1952. + +Mr. BALL. What service? + +Mr. JARMAN. U.S. Army. + +Mr. BALL. And did you enlist in 1948? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Enlisted? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did 4 years in the Army? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes; I did. + +Mr. BALL. Did you receive an honorable discharge from the Army? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And then what did you do? + +Mr. JARMAN. I came out and stayed out for about until July of 1953. + +Mr. BALL. Then what? + +Mr. JARMAN. And reenlisted in the service again. + +Mr. BALL. How long did you stay in the Army this time? + +Mr. JARMAN. Until 1956. + +Mr. BALL. And were you discharged then? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, I was. + +Mr. BALL. Did you get an honorable discharge? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And what did you do after that? + +Mr. JARMAN. Well, I started working at the Texas School Book Depository +for about 2 months after. + +Mr. BALL. After you got out of the Army? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. You are still there; are you? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Was there any period of time since 1956 to 1964 that you +didn't work there? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. How many times? + +Mr. JARMAN. I started in 1956. I worked from August up until November, +and I was laid off until December the same year and I started back +again and I worked up until 1958 I believe, 1958 or 1959, and I quit +there and went to Parkland Hospital. From there I went back to the +Depository. And I got laid off again and I went to Bakers Hotel, and +I think it was in 1961 I went back to the Depository and I have been +there ever since. + +Mr. BALL. What was your job at the Depository in November of 1963, last +fall? + +Mr. JARMAN. Checker. + +Mr. BALL. What does a checker do? + +Mr. JARMAN. He checks various orders, books and things that go out to +different schools. + +Mr. BALL. Do the order fillers bring the books down to where you have +your---- + +Mr. JARMAN. Right. + +Mr. BALL. On a table. You have a table? + +Mr. JARMAN. I have a table with a scale and I weigh these books up and +put the upholstery on them and put them on a little conveyor and the +wrappers wrap them or pack them, whichever one it may be. + +Mr. BALL. Did you know Lee Oswald? + +Mr. JARMAN. Only as a coworker. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to him while he was working there? + +Mr. JARMAN. I have had him to correct orders at various times. That is +about all. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to him about politics? + +Mr. JARMAN. No. + +Mr. BALL. Religion? + +Mr. JARMAN. No. + +Mr. BALL. Anything at all? + +Mr. JARMAN. Not until November the 22d. + +Mr. BALL. Not until that day? + +Mr. JARMAN. Not until that day. + +Mr. BALL. Did Oswald have any friends there? + +Mr. JARMAN. Well, not that I know of. + +Mr. BALL. Did he have any close friend that he would eat lunch with +every day? + +Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; not that I know of. + +Mr. BALL. Did you notice whether Oswald brought his lunch most of the +time or bought his lunch most of the time? + +Mr. JARMAN. Most of the time he brought his lunch. + +Mr. BALL. Most of the time he brought his lunch? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him buy his lunch? + +Mr. JARMAN. Well, occasionally. I don't think so. + +Mr. BALL. I don't understand. + +Mr. JARMAN. I mean sometimes he would go out of the building. One time +I know in particular that he went out, but he didn't buy any lunch. + +Mr. BALL. There is a catering service that comes by the building every +morning at 10 o'clock, isn't there? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him buy his lunch from this catering service? + +Mr. JARMAN. I think once or twice he did. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him when he was eating his lunch? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Where? + +Mr. JARMAN. Sometimes in the, as we called it, domino room, and again +over by the coffee table where they make coffee. + +Mr. BALL. Is that the first floor? + +Mr. JARMAN. That is the first floor. + +Mr. BALL. Now on November 22, what time did you get to work? + +Mr. JARMAN. About 5 minutes after 8. + +Mr. BALL. Was Oswald there when you got there? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you see him the first time? + +Mr. JARMAN. Well, he was on the first floor filling orders. + +Mr. BALL. Did you bring your lunch that day? + +Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do about lunch that day? + +Mr. JARMAN. I got a sandwich off the carrying truck. + +Mr. BALL. About what time of day? + +Mr. JARMAN. It was about 10 or a little after 10, maybe. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you put it, keep it until lunch? + +Mr. JARMAN. In the domino room. + +Mr. BALL. Where in the domino room? + +Mr. JARMAN. Well, they have two little windows, they have two sets of +windows in there and I put it in the window. + +Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Oswald that morning? + +Mr. JARMAN. I did. + +Mr. BALL. When? + +Mr. JARMAN. I had him to correct an order. I don't know exactly what +time it was. + +Mr. BALL. Oh, approximately. Nine, ten? + +Mr. JARMAN. It was around, it was between eight and nine, I would say. + +Mr. BALL. Between 8 and 9? + +Mr. JARMAN. Between 5 minutes after 8 and 9. + +Mr. BALL. You had him correct an order? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him again that morning? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. I talked to him again later on that morning. + +Mr. BALL. About what time? + +Mr. JARMAN. It was between 9:30 and 10 o'clock, I believe. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you when you talked to him? + +Mr. JARMAN. In between two rows of bins. + +Mr. BALL. On what floor? + +Mr. JARMAN. On the first floor. + +Mr. BALL. And what was said by him and by you? + +Mr. JARMAN. Well, he was standing up in the window and I went to the +window also, and he asked me what were the people gathering around on +the corner for, and I told him that the President was supposed to pass +that morning, and he asked me did I know which way he was coming, and I +told him, yes; he probably come down Main and turn on Houston and then +back again on Elm. + +Then he said, "Oh, I see," and that was all. + +Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him again? + +Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What time did you quit for lunch? + +Mr. JARMAN. It was right about 5 minutes to 12. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do when you quit for lunch? + +Mr. JARMAN. Went in the rest room and washed up. + +Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? + +Mr. JARMAN. Went and got my sandwich and went up in the lounge and got +me a soda pop. + +Mr. BALL. Where is the lounge? + +Mr. JARMAN. On the second floor. + +Mr. BALL. On the second floor? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Then where did you go after you got your soda pop? + +Mr. JARMAN. Came back and went down to the window. + +Mr. BALL. What window? + +Mr. JARMAN. Where Oswald and I was talking. + +Mr. BALL. Where? + +Mr. JARMAN. Between those two rows of bins. + +Mr. BALL. Where Oswald and you had been talking? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do there? + +Mr. JARMAN. I was eating part of my sandwich there, and then I came +back out and as I was walking across the floor I ate the rest of it +going toward the domino room. + +Mr. BALL. You say you ate the rest of it when? + +Mr. JARMAN. Walking around on the first floor there. + +Mr. BALL. Did you sit down at the window when you ate part of your +sandwich? + +Mr. JARMAN. No; I was standing. + +Mr. BALL. And did you have the pop in your hand, too? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes; I had a sandwich in one hand and pop in the other. + +Mr. BALL. You say you wandered around, you mean on the first floor? + +Mr. JARMAN. On the first floor. + +Mr. BALL. Were you with anybody when you were at the window? Did you +talk to anybody? + +Mr. JARMAN. No; I did not. + +Mr. BALL. Were you with anybody when you were walking around finishing +your sandwich? + +Mr. JARMAN. No; I wasn't. I was trying to get through so I could get +out on the street. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see Lee Oswald? + +Mr. JARMAN. No; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. After his arrest, he stated to a police officer that he had +had lunch with you. Did you have lunch with him? + +Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. When you finished your sandwich and your bottle of pop, what +did you do? + +Mr. JARMAN. I throwed the paper that I had the sandwich in in the box +over close to the telephone and I took the pop bottle and put it in the +case over by the Dr. Pepper machine. + +Mr. BALL. And then what did you do? + +Mr. JARMAN. Then I went out in front of the building. + +Mr. BALL. With who? + +Mr. JARMAN. Harold Norman, Bonnie Ray, and Danny Arce and myself. + +Mr. BALL. You say Bonnie Ray Williams? + +Mr. JARMAN. Bonnie Ray Williams. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember him going with you? + +Mr. JARMAN. No; I am sorry. Excuse me, but it was Harold Norman and +myself and Daniel Arce. + +Mr. BALL. What about Billy Lovelady? + +Mr. JARMAN. I didn't go out with them. They came out later. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see Billy Lovelady out there? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where was he? + +Mr. JARMAN. Standing on the stairway as you go out the front door. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you stand? + +Mr. JARMAN. I was standing over to the right in front of the building +going toward the west. + +Mr. BALL. Were you on the sidewalk or curb? + +Mr. JARMAN. On the sidewalk. + +Mr. BALL. The sidewalk in front of the Texas School Book Depository +Building? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How long did you stand there? + +Mr. JARMAN. Well, until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25. + +Mr. BALL. Who do you remember was standing near you that worked with +you in the Book Depository? + +Mr. JARMAN. Harold Norman and Charles Givens and Daniel Arce. + +Mr. BALL. What about Mr. Truly? + +Mr. JARMAN. He wasn't standing close to me. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see him? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Who was he with? + +Mr. JARMAN. He was with the Vice President of the company. + +Mr. BALL. What is his name? + +Mr. JARMAN. O. V. Campbell. + +Mr. BALL. Where were they standing? + +Mr. JARMAN. They were standing at the corner of the building in front +of the mail boxes. + +Mr. BALL. You left there, didn't you, and went some place? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. With whom? + +Mr. JARMAN. Harold Norman and myself. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go? + +Mr. JARMAN. We went around to the back of the building up to the fifth +floor. + +Mr. BALL. You say you went around. You mean you went around the +building? + +Mr. JARMAN. Right. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't go through and cross the first floor? + +Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; there was too many people standing on the stairway +there, so we decided to go around. + +Mr. BALL. You went in the back door? + +Mr. JARMAN. Right. + +Mr. BALL. That would be the north entrance to the building, wouldn't it? + +Mr. JARMAN. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Did you take an elevator or the stairs? + +Mr. JARMAN. We took the elevator. + +Mr. BALL. Which elevator? + +Mr. JARMAN. The west side elevator. + +Mr. BALL. That is the one you use a punch button on, isn't it? + +Mr. JARMAN. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go? + +Mr. JARMAN. To the fifth floor. + +Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the fifth floor? + +Mr. JARMAN. We just decided to go to the fifth floor. + +Mr. BALL. Was there any reason why you should go to the fifth floor any +more than the fourth or the sixth? + +Mr. JARMAN. No. + +Mr. BALL. Did you know who made the suggestion you go to the fifth +floor? + +Mr. JARMAN. Well, I don't know if it was myself or Hank. + +Mr. BALL. When you got there was there anybody on the fifth floor? + +Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do when you got to the fifth floor? + +Mr. JARMAN. We got out the elevator and pulled the gate down. That was +in case somebody wanted to use it. Then we went to the front of the +building, which is on the south side, and raised the windows. + +Mr. BALL. Which windows did you raise? + +Mr. JARMAN. Well, Harold raised the first window to the east side +of the building, and I went to the second rear windows and raised, +counting the windows, it would be the fourth one. + +Mr. BALL. It would be the fourth window? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did somebody join you then? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir; a few minutes later. + +Mr. BALL. Who joined you? + +Mr. JARMAN. Bonnie Ray Williams. + +Mr. BALL. And where did he stand or sit? + +Mr. JARMAN. He took the window next to Harold Norman. + +Mr. BALL. I show you a picture which is 480, a picture of the Texas +School Book Depository Building. Can you show me the window before +which you were standing and out of which you were looking? + +Mr. JARMAN. This window here. + +Mr. BALL. It is marked W on this picture. Where was Harold Norman, the +window out of which Harold Norman was looking? + +Mr. JARMAN. He was first right here. + +Mr. BALL. That is the one marked with a red arrow? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Where was Bonnie Ray Williams? + +Mr. JARMAN. Bonnie Ray Williams was in this one. + +Mr. BALL. Next to the window of Norman, is that right? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Was---- + +Mr. BELIN. What exhibit is that? + +Mr. BALL. That is 480. This is 482. You recognize those two pictures? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Who are they? + +Mr. JARMAN. Harold Norman and Bonnie Ray Williams. + +Mr. BALL. Now the other day you went up to the fifth floor of the Texas +State School Book Depository with me and a photographer, and had your +picture taken, did you not? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And what did I ask you to do before the picture was taken? + +Mr. JARMAN. To try to get in the same position that we were the day the +assassination was. + +Mr. BALL. And did you do that? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. We tried to the best of our knowledge. + +Mr. BALL. I have a picture here I would like to have marked as +Commission Exhibit 494. + +Mr. McCLOY. It is so marked. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 494 for +identification.) + +Mr. BALL. Is that your picture? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Taken last Friday afternoon, March 20th, is that right? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now does it or does it not show your position at about the +time, as you were watching the President's motorcade go by? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir; that is the position I had as it was going by. + +Mr. BALL. You are on your knees? + +Mr. JARMAN. Right, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I show this to each member of the Commission. This is a new +exhibit. 485, you recognize that picture? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What does it show? + +Mr. JARMAN. It shows that I was on my knees as the motorcade was +passing. + +Mr. BALL. And shows the other two men? + +Mr. JARMAN. As the motorcade was passing. + +Mr. BALL. It shows their position? + +Mr. JARMAN. At the time. + +Mr. BALL. At the time the motorcade was passing? + +Mr. JARMAN. Right, sir. + +Mr. BALL. This has been introduced into evidence. I don't believe you +have seen that, Congressman. + +Representative FORD. This is yourself here? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes. + +Representative FORD. The one closest to an individual looking at the +photograph. + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. After the motorcade passed, what happened? + +Mr. JARMAN. After the motorcade turned, going west on Elm, then there +was a loud shot, or backfire, as I thought it was then--I thought it +was a backfire. + +Mr. BALL. You thought it was what? + +Mr. JARMAN. A backfire or an officer giving a salute to the President. +And then at that time I didn't, you know, think too much about it. And +then the second shot was fired, and that is when the people started +falling on the ground and the motorcade car jumped forward, and then +the third shot was fired right behind the second one. + +Mr. BALL. Were you still on your knees looking up? + +Mr. JARMAN. Well, after the third shot was fired, I think I got up and +I ran over to Harold Norman and Bonnie Ray Williams, and told them, I +said, I told them that it wasn't a backfire or anything, that somebody +was shooting at the President. + +Mr. BALL. And then did they say anything? + +Mr. JARMAN. Hank said, Harold Norman, rather, said that he thought the +shots had came from above us, and I noticed that Bonnie Ray had a few +debris in his head. It was sort of white stuff, or something, and I +told him not to brush it out, but he did anyway. + +Mr. BALL. He had some white what, like plaster? + +Mr. JARMAN. Like some come off a brick or plaster or something. + +Mr. BALL. Did Norman say anything else that you remember? + +Mr. JARMAN. He said that he was sure that the shot came from inside the +building because he had been used to guns and all that, and he said it +didn't sound like it was too far off anyway. And so we ran down to the +west side of the building. + +Mr. BALL. Did Norman say anything about hearing cartridges or ejection +or anything like that, do you remember? + +Mr. JARMAN. That was after we got down to the west side of the building. + +Mr. BALL. After you got down where? + +Mr. JARMAN. To the west side of the building. + +Mr. BALL. Down the west side? + +Mr. JARMAN. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Now you ran down to the west side of the building, did you? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And when you were up there you showed me the window to which +you ran, didn't you? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. The picture was taken of you at that place? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. When you ran down there was the window open or closed? + +Mr. JARMAN. It was closed. + +Mr. BALL. And who opened it? + +Mr. JARMAN. I did. + +Mr. BALL. And what did you do after you opened the window? + +Mr. JARMAN. I leaned out and the officers and various people was +running across the tracks, toward the tracks over there where they had +the passenger trains, and all, boxcars and things. + +Mr. BALL. I show you 488. What does that show? + +Mr. JARMAN. That shows me leaning out the window and Bonnie Ray and +Harold Norman was over to the side of me. + +Mr. BALL. What window? + +Mr. JARMAN. The window on the west side of the building. + +Mr. BALL. Is that the one to which you ran after you heard the shots? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And you looked out that window? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How did you happen to run to that window? + +Mr. JARMAN. Well, I wanted to see what was going on mostly, because +that was after the motorcade car had took off, and I thought they had +stopped under the underpass, but they hadn't. So they went on around +the bend, and after I couldn't see from there I ran to another, the +second window. + +Mr. BALL. That second one you ran to, you pointed that out to me last +Friday, did you? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And the picture was taken of that, is that right? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And that window is on which side? + +Mr. JARMAN. On the west side of the building also. + +Mr. BALL. I show you 489. Is that a picture of the west window? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And what did you see when you looked out that window? + +Mr. JARMAN. When I looked out that window, I saw the policemen and the +secret agents, the FBI men, searching the boxcar yard and the passenger +train and things like that. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you when you heard Harold Norman say something +that he had heard cartridges? + +Mr. JARMAN. All that took place right here in this corner after we had +went to this window. + +Mr. BALL. This corner. What corner do you mean? + +Mr. JARMAN. In the corner of the building right after we had looked out +this window. + +Mr. BALL. Which corner? + +Mr. JARMAN. Right here on the west side of the building. + +Mr. BALL. On the west side of the building? + +Mr. JARMAN. Right. + +Mr. BALL. And would that be the window that is shown in 488, or the +window that is shown in 489? + +Mr. JARMAN. It was between the two windows. + +Mr. BALL. Between the two? + +Mr. JARMAN. As we was going to this window. + +Mr. BALL. To that window? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What did you hear him say? + +Mr. JARMAN. He said it was something sounded like cartridges hitting +the floor, and he could hear the action of the rifle, I mean the bolt, +as it were pulled back, or something like that. + +Mr. BALL. Had you heard anything like that? + +Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; I hadn't. + +Mr. BALL. Had you heard any person running upstairs? + +Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Or any steps upstairs? + +Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Any noise at all up there? + +Mr. JARMAN. None. + +Mr. BALL. I have here a diagram which is 487. This is the southeast +corner of the building on this diagram. Do you recognize that? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. This is the Elm Street side? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Will you point out the window to which you three boys ran +when you looked out, you opened the window and looked out towards +the---- + +Mr. JARMAN. This one here. + +Mr. BALL. The one marked Y on this diagram? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Is that right? + +Mr. JARMAN. This one right here. + +Mr. BALL. That one marked Y. + +Mr. JARMAN. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Where is the window to which you went afterwards to look out +when you saw the police and other agents searching boxcars? + +Mr. JARMAN. I went to the second window from the south side of the +building on the west. + +Mr. BALL. Is that the one marked Z? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. At that time could you see the stairwell when you stood there +at Z? + +Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; I couldn't. + +Mr. BALL. Why? + +Mr. JARMAN. Because there is a row of bins there with books in them. + +Mr. BALL. They block your view? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And did we conduct an experiment there to see how much you +could see from Z? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I show you a picture, 491. Do you remember standing in line +near the stairwell? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. That is you on the end, isn't it? + +Mr. JARMAN. Right. + +Mr. BALL. On the end, the farthest from the stairwell? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And we took a picture, is that right? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Of that area. Does that show the bins? + +Mr. JARMAN. That shows the bins. + +Mr. BALL. I am now referring to 492. + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now was there any part of the stairwell that you could see +when you were along this west wall? + +Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Could you see the elevators? + +Mr. JARMAN. I imagine if I had looked over, but I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember any of the elevators coming up or down as you +were standing there at the west window? + +Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Looking toward the railroad track? + +Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember seeing Mr. Truly? + +Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Or did you see a motorcycle officer come up? + +Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Or did you hear the elevator go up? + +Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did you men do after you looked out the window toward +the railroad tracks from the west window? + +Mr. JARMAN. Well, after Norman had made his statement that he had heard +the cartridges hit the floor and this bolt action, I told him we'd +better get the hell from up here. + +Mr. BALL. Did anybody suggest you go up to the sixth floor? + +Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And where did you go then? + +Mr. JARMAN. Down. We ran to the elevator first, but the elevator had +gone down. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go? + +Mr. JARMAN. Then we ran to the stairway and ran downstairs, and we +paused a few minutes on four. + +Mr. BALL. Which elevator did you run to? + +Mr. JARMAN. To the elevator on the west side. + +Mr. BALL. On the west. That wasn't there? + +Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. When you went downstairs, what did you see on the first floor? + +Mr. JARMAN. When we got downstairs on the first floor, I think the +first one I seen was Eddie Piper. + +Mr. BALL. Eddie Piper works there, does he? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And who else did you see? + +Mr. JARMAN. And I ran into Roy Edward Lewis, which is also another +employee. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody else there? + +Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. I ran, then we ran to the front door. + +Mr. BALL. You ran to the front door? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir; and out on the street. + +Mr. BALL. You and who? + +Mr. JARMAN. Harold Norman. + +Mr. BALL. You and Harold went out there? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see a fellow named Brennan? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you see him first? + +Mr. JARMAN. He was talking to a police officer. + +Mr. BALL. How was he dressed? + +Mr. JARMAN. He was dressed in construction clothes. + +Mr. BALL. Anything else, any other way to describe him? + +Mr. JARMAN. Well, he had on a silverlike helmet. + +Mr. BALL. Hard-hat? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you stay out there very long? + +Mr. JARMAN. Just a few minutes. + +Mr. BALL. Then where did you go? + +Mr. JARMAN. We heard him talking to this officer about that he had +heard these shots and he had seen the barrel of the gun sticking out +the window, and he said that the shots came from inside the building, +and I told the officer that I believed that they came from inside the +building also, and then he rushed us back inside. + +Mr. BALL. The officer did? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How did you know this fellow was Brennan? + +Mr. JARMAN. Well, at that time I didn't know him at all. + +Mr. BALL. Have you learned that since? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Who told you that the man in the hard-hat was Brennan? + +Mr. JARMAN. Well, they have had him down there at the building a couple +of times. + +Mr. BALL. Were you taken to the police station? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you make a statement? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. When? + +Mr. JARMAN. That Saturday morning. + +Mr. BALL. The next day? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How long did you stay in the building, the Texas School Book +Depository Building that afternoon? + +Mr. JARMAN. I'd say it was somewhere between two and two-thirty when +they turned us loose and told us to go home. + +Mr. BALL. When you were there did you notice whether any of the +employees were missing? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. When did you notice, and who was missing? + +Mr. JARMAN. When we started to line up to show our identification, +quite a few of us asked where was Lee. That is what we called him, and +he wasn't anywhere around. We started asking each other, have you seen +Lee Oswald, and they said no. + +Mr. BALL. Was there anybody else missing? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Who. + +Mr. JARMAN. Charles Douglas Givens, I believe. + +Mr. BALL. Charles Givens? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Anybody else? + +Mr. JARMAN. I can't recall. + +Mr. McCLOY. Had Givens been in the Depository that morning? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir; he had. + +Mr. McCLOY. He had been there? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did Givens come back later? + +Mr. JARMAN. He didn't come back to the building until they picked him +up. + +Mr. BALL. He did come back to the building before you left, did he? + +Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. He didn't? + +Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. He was not there when you left? + +Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. When you were on the fifth floor, did you pay any attention +to whether or not there was noise above you, before the shots were +fired? + +Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. In other words, if there was noise up there--let's put it +this way. If there had been any noise up there, you didn't notice it? + +Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Now after the shooting, did you hear any noise from upstairs? + +Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you listen for any? + +Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How long was it before you ran down to the west end, from the +time of the shots until you ran down to the west end, about how much +time do you think it was? + +Mr. JARMAN. After the third shot was fired I would say it was about a +minute. + +Mr. McCLOY. You have had military experience, haven't you? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. And you can recognize rifle shots when you hear them? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. But you didn't hear, you didn't catch the sound of the bolt +moving? + +Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the President actually hit by the bullets? + +Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. I couldn't say that I saw him actually hit, but +after the second shot, I presumed that he was, because I had my eye on +his car from the time it came down Houston until the time it started +toward the freeway underpass. + +Mr. McCLOY. You saw him crumple, you saw him fall, did you? + +Mr. JARMAN. I saw him lean his head. + +Representative FORD. You actually saw the car lurch forward, did you? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. That is a distinct impression? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes. + +Representative FORD. And you had followed it as it turned from Main on +to Houston and followed it as it turned from Houston on to Elm? + +Mr. JARMAN. Right, sir. + +Representative FORD. Had your eye on the car all the time? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. Where did you think the sound of the first shot +came from? Do you have a distinct impression of that? + +Mr. JARMAN. Well, it sounded, I thought at first it had came from +below. That is what I thought. + +Representative FORD. As you looked out the window and you were looking +at the President's car. + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. Did you have a distinct impression as to whether +the sound came from your left or from your right? + +Mr. JARMAN. I am sure it came from the left. + +Representative FORD. But your first reaction, that is was from below. + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. When the second shot came, do you have any +different recollection? + +Mr. JARMAN. Well, they all sounded just about the same. + +Representative FORD. You distinctly recall three shots? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. And at what point did you get up from where you +were on your knees in the window? + +Mr. JARMAN. When the motorcar picked up speed. + +Representative FORD. Was this after what you thought was the third shot? + +Mr. JARMAN. The third shot; yes. + +Representative FORD. Mr. McCloy said you had been in the army 8 years, +two 4-year hitches. Was there any doubt in your mind that this was a +gunshot, either one of the three? + +Mr. JARMAN. Not after the second shot. I didn't have any doubt in my +mind then. + +Representative FORD. When did you first learn of the President's +motorcade route? + +Mr. JARMAN. That morning. + +Representative FORD. Friday morning, November 22d? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. How did you find out about it? + +Mr. JARMAN. The foreman of the employees on the first floor. + +Representative FORD. What is his name? + +Mr. JARMAN. William Shelley was standing up talking to Mrs. Lee. + +Representative FORD. To Mrs. Lee? + +Mr. JARMAN. Miss Lee, or Mrs. Lee, I think, and he was discussing to +her about the President coming, asked her was she going to stand out +there and see him pass. + +Representative FORD. About what time Friday morning was this? + +Mr. JARMAN. I imagine it would be about--I think it was between 8:30 +and 9:00. I am not sure. + +Representative FORD. You hadn't read about it in the papers the night +before or that morning? + +Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. + +Representative FORD. When did you have this conversation with Lee +Oswald, where he asked you--you told him that the motorcade was coming +by the School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. JARMAN. It was some time that morning, between 9:30 and 10:30. + +Representative FORD. This was after you heard Mr. Shelley and Miss or +Mrs. Lee talk? + +Mr. JARMAN. Discuss it--yes. + +Representative FORD. Did Oswald ask you, or did you initiate the +conversation and tell Oswald of the route? + +Mr. JARMAN. He asked me. + +Representative FORD. What was his reaction? + +Mr. JARMAN. After I had told him the route that the President probably +would take, he just said, "Oh, I see" and went back to filling orders. + +Representative FORD. You testified earlier that you were standing on +the steps or in front of the School Depository Building prior to the +President's motorcade coming by the building. + +Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. I was standing on the sidewalk. + +Representative FORD. But in front of the building? + +Mr. JARMAN. In front of the building. + +Representative FORD. Then you said you went around the building. + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes. + +Representative FORD. What route did you take? Did you go down Elm or +did you go down Houston? + +Mr. JARMAN. I went to the corner of the building facing Elm, and turned +going north on Houston. + +Representative FORD. Can you turn around and--here is the main entrance +on Elm Street. And you were standing out on the sidewalk more or less +where? + +Mr. JARMAN. Right here. + +Representative FORD. In which direction did you go then? + +Mr. JARMAN. This way. + +Representative FORD. You went by the front to the corner of Houston and +Elm, and then down Houston towards the loading dock? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. And where did you get on the elevator? + +Mr. JARMAN. We walked around to the back entrance and went through this +door here, and this elevator here was up on six, I believe. And we +walked around the elevator and took the west elevator up. + +Representative FORD. How could you tell this elevator was at six? + +Mr. JARMAN. Because after we got around to the other side we looked up. + +Representative FORD. You could see it was on six? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes. + +Representative FORD. This was about what time? + +Mr. JARMAN. That was about 12:25 or 12:28. + +Representative FORD. You got off the fifth floor? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. As you rode the elevator, you noticed the other +one was on the sixth floor? + +Mr. JARMAN. Right, sir. + +Representative FORD. Have you ever been in any trouble with the police +or did you ever have any disciplinary troubles in the Army? + +Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How was Oswald dressed that morning when you saw him at work? +Do you remember that? + +Mr. JARMAN. I don't exactly recall how he was dressed. I think he had +on some dress pants. But I didn't notice the color. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of pants? + +Mr. JARMAN. Some kind of these slacks you wear. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of a shirt? + +Mr. JARMAN. Ivy leagues, I believe. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of a shirt, do you know? + +Mr. JARMAN. He never hardly worked in a shirt. He worked in a T-shirt. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember if he had a T-shirt on that day? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes; he had on a T-shirt that morning. + +Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. + +Mr. McCLOY. Did you see at any time Oswald that morning with a bundle +or package of any kind? + +Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. When did you first come to the conclusion that any of the +shots came from up above you? + +Mr. JARMAN. After we had ran down to this last window on the west side +of the building, and we was discussing it. And then after I got to +thinking about all the debris on Bonnie Ray's head, and I thought about +that, also. And so I told Hank, I say, "That shot probably did come +from upstairs, up over us," and Hank said, "I know it did, because I +could hear the action of the bolt, and I could hear the cartridges drop +on the floor." + +And I told him there we better get the hell from up here. + +The CHAIRMAN. Now, tell me, when you went downstairs--when you were +downstairs and went out the first time, that is, just before you met +Brennan, did anyone stop you as you went out the building? + +Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. You could have gone right away if you wanted to, could +you? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. And then you happened to run across Brennan, and had this +conversation with him? + +Mr. JARMAN. No. He ran up to the police officer and was telling him +about the man sticking a gun out the window. And I heard him telling +the officer that. + +And I told him that I thought the shots came from inside, too. + +The CHAIRMAN. I see. + +Are you a married man? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. Do you have a family? + +Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir; three children. + +The CHAIRMAN. I think that is all. + +Thank you very much for coming and helping us out. We appreciate it +very much. + +Mr. JARMAN. We are glad to do it. + +Mr. BALL. Mr. Chairman, we would like to recall Mr. Brennan. + + +TESTIMONY OF HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN RESUMED + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, you are the same Howard Leslie Brennan who +testifled this morning here? + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know a George Murray, of the National Broadcasting +Co.? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I do not. + +Mr. BELIN. Have you ever worked for the Union Terminal Co.---- + +Mr. McCLOY. You are still under oath, you realize. + +Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Have you ever worked for the Union Terminal Co. in Dallas? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I have not. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever state to anyone that you heard shots from +opposite the Texas School Book Depository and saw smoke and paper +wadding come out of boxes on a slope below the railroad trestle at the +time of the assassination? Did you ever say that or that, in substance, +to anyone? + +Mr. BRENNAN. I did not. + +Mr. BELIN. That is all. + +Mr. BRENNAN. Is there another Howard Brennan? + +Mr. BELIN. Well, sir; we don't know. We wanted to know whether or not +you ever made this statement to anyone. + +Mr. BRENNAN. No, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Brennan. + +Mr. BRENNAN. I would like to ask a question off the record. + +The CHAIRMAN. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + + +TESTIMONY OF ROY SANSOM TRULY + +Mr. BELIN. Next we will call Mr. Truly. + +Mr. McCLOY. Will you raise your right hand, and stand? + +Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give in this case will be +the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. TRULY. I do. + +Mr. McCLOY. I would like to state, Mr. Truly, what the purpose of this +hearing is. + +This is to hear the testimony of several witnesses, or people close +to the event of the assassination of the President, to get as much +knowledge as we can of the facts concerning that event, which largely +centers around the School Book Depository and the people in it, on the +afternoon of November 22d. + +Will you state for the record your full name? + +Mr. TRULY. Roy Sansom Truly. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, where do you live? + +Mr. TRULY. I live at 4932 Jade Drive, Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. BELIN. Are you originally from Dallas? + +Mr. TRULY. No. I have been in Dallas since 1925. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were you born, sir? + +Mr. TRULY. Hubbard, Tex. + +Mr. BELIN. And what was your birth date? + +Mr. TRULY. August 29, 1907. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, where did you go to school? + +Mr. TRULY. I finished high school at Hubbard. + +Mr. BELIN. In Texas? + +Mr. TRULY. In Texas. + +Mr. BELIN. And what did you do after you finished high school? + +Mr. TRULY. Well, I came to Dallas in the fall of that year and I have +been there ever since. + +Mr. BELIN. For whom did you become employed when you came to Dallas? + +Mr. TRULY. I believe--my father ran a cafe here in Dallas, and I worked +with him a short while. And then in the fall of 1925, I went to work +for Higginbotham, Bailey, Logan Co. + +Mr. BELIN. What business is that? + +Mr. TRULY. That is wholesale drygoods. + +Mr. BELIN. And how long did you work with them? + +Mr. TRULY. I believe a little less than a year. + +Mr. BELIN. And then where did you go? + +Mr. TRULY. I went to work for National Casket Co. + +Mr. BELIN. And about how long did you work for them? + +Mr. TRULY. I couldn't be certain. Several years--maybe 3 or 4 or 5 +years. + +Mr. BELIN. And in what capacity did you work for them? + +Mr. TRULY. Well, I worked in the cloth room, learning the trade of +putting in the drapery and things in the caskets. + +Mr. BELIN. And from there, where did you go? + +Mr. TRULY. I worked a short time at the Dallas Coffin Co., several +months. It wasn't very long. And I left there and during the depression +I worked for several things. I drove a laundry truck off and on for a +couple of years. + +(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.) + +Mr. TRULY. I believe I even worked for the WPA back there in those days. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +And after the depression, where did you start working then? + +Mr. TRULY. I went to work for the Texas School Book Depository in July +1934. + +Mr. BELIN. And have you been employed by the Texas School Book +Depository since that date, since July 1934? + +Mr. TRULY. That is right. + +(At this point, Mr. Dulles entered the hearing room.) + +Mr. BELIN. In what capacity have you worked for that company? + +Mr. TRULY. First, when I first went to work for this company, I had +charge of the miscellaneous order department, which is actually a +one-man operation. I filled orders for books other than state-adopted +textbooks. + +Mr. BELIN. And then what? + +Mr. TRULY. I worked on through that time until the present time. + +During the war I worked in the North American plant at Arlington. + +Mr. BELIN. That is the North American Aviation? + +Mr. TRULY. North American Aviation plant at Arlington, for around 14 +months, at night. But I continued to hold my job. + +Well, I would go down to work 2, 3, 4 hours a day. Shortly after that, +I took charge of all the shipping. + +Well, I have been superintendent of the operation since some time in +the late 1944. + +Mr. BELIN. You have been superintendent of the Texas School Book +Depository. And do you have any other positions with the company at +this time? + +Mr. TRULY. I am a director--I am a member of the board of directors of +the Texas School Book Depository. + +Mr. BELIN. Is that a State organization or a private company? + +Mr. TRULY. It is a private corporation. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, when did you first hear of the name of Lee Harvey +Oswald? + +Mr. TRULY. I heard the name on or about October 15th. + +Mr. BELIN. Of what year? + +Mr. TRULY. Of 1963. + +Mr. BELIN. And from whom did you hear the name? Could you just relate +to the Commission the circumstances, if you would, please? + +Mr. TRULY. I received a phone call from a lady in Irving who said her +name was Mrs. Paine. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +What did Mrs. Paine say, and what did you say? + +Mr. TRULY. She said, "Mr. Truly"--words to this effect--you +understand--"Mr. Truly, you don't know who I am but I have a neighbor +whose brother works for you. I don't know what his name is. But he +tells his sister that you are very busy. And I am just wondering if you +can use another man," or words to that effect. + +And I told Mrs.--she said, "I have a fine young man living here with +his wife and baby, and his wife is expecting a baby--another baby, in a +few days, and he needs work desperately." + +Now, this is not absolutely--this is as near as I can remember the +conversation over the telephone. + +And I told Mrs. Paine that--to send him down, and I would talk to +him--that I didn't have anything in mind for him of a permanent nature, +but if he was suited, we could possibly use him for a brief time. + +Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else from that conversation that you +remember at all, or not? + +Mr. TRULY. No. I believe that was the first and the last time that I +talked to Mrs. Paine. + +In fact, I could not remember her name afterwards until I saw her name +in print, and then it popped into my mind that this was the lady who +called me. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Anything else on--what was this--October 15th--about Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; I am sure it was on October 15th. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can remember about Lee Harvey Oswald on +that day? + +Mr. TRULY. She told me she would tell him to come down and see me. + +So he came in, introduced himself to me, and I took him in my office +and interviewed him. He seemed to be quiet and well mannered. + +I gave him an application to fill out, which he did. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he fill it out in front of you, or not? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes; he did. And he told me--I asked him about experience +that he had had, or where he had worked, and he said he had just served +his term in the Marine Corps and had received an honorable discharge, +and he listed some things of an office nature that he had learned to do +in the Marines. + +I questioned him about any past activities. I asked him if he had ever +had any trouble with the police, and he said, no. So thinking that he +was just out of the Marines, I didn't check any further back. I didn't +have anything of a permanent nature in mind for him. He looked like a +nice young fellow to me--he was quiet and well mannered. He used the +word "sir", you know, which a lot of them don't do at this time. + +So I told him if he would come to work on the morning of the 16th, it +was the beginning of a new pay period. So he filled out his withholding +slip, with the exception of the number of dependents. + +He asked me if I would hold that for 3 or 4 days, that he is expecting +a baby momentarily. + +So some 4 days or so later--I don't remember the exact day--he told me +that he had this new baby, and he wanted to add one dependent. + +He finished filling it out. And I sent it up to Mr. Campbell who makes +out the payroll for the company. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, on October 15th you saw him fill out the application +form for employment in his own writing? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. You also saw him fill out the withholding slip, except for +the number of exemptions, in his own writing, is that correct? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Any other conversation that you can remember from your +meeting on October 15th? + +Mr. TRULY. Well, he told me that he needed a job. He said he had a wife +and child to support. And he also repeated that he was expecting a +child in a few days. + +And I told Lee Oswald that I had some work, that if he could fit in, +of a temporary nature, we could put him on. But I didn't have anything +in mind of a permanent job at that time, because I didn't have any +openings for a permanent person. And he said he would be glad to have +any type of work I would give him, because he did need--and he stressed +he really needed a job to support his family. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else from that conversation on October 15th? + +Mr. TRULY. Nothing that I can recall, except that he seemed to be +grateful that I was giving him the chance of a little extra work, if +you want to call it that. + +He left, and I didn't see him any more until the morning of the 16th. + +Mr. BELIN. What were his hours of work to be? + +Mr. TRULY. His hours were from 8 in the morning until 4:45 in the +afternoon. + +His lunch period was from 12 to 12:45. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you have a time clock there that they punch or not? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. The next morning, do you know whether or not he came to work? + +Mr. TRULY. He came to work the next morning. I told him what his duties +were to be--would be filling book orders. And I told Mr. Shelley, who +is on that floor and has charge of the miscellaneous department. + +Now, this particular thing as to whether I called a boy or Mr. Shelley +did--anyway, we put Lee Oswald with another worker who was experienced +in filling orders. This boy showed him the location of the various +publishers' stock. He worked with him, it seems to me, like only an +hour or two, and then he started filling orders by himself. And from +then on he worked alone. + +He would occasionally ask the other boys where certain stock items were +when he couldn't find them. But he was filling small parcel post and +a few freight orders for the various schools--as they would come down +from the office. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, could you describe how his work progressed as he was +working with you? + +Mr. TRULY. Well, he seemed to catch on and learn the location of the +stock. We have several thousand titles of books in our warehouse. But +he was filling mostly one or two publishers' orders. + +Mr. BELIN. What publishers were those? + +Mr. TRULY. The main publisher was Scott, Foresman and Co. + +Now, they have quite a lot of small orders, all through the year. They +are one of our biggest publishers. So it kept him busy filling mostly +their orders, plus some of the smaller publishers. Possibly he filled +some of Gregg Publishing Co. and others. But when he would run out of +Scott, Foresman orders, he would pick up other orders that might have +had several publishers' books on the same order. + +Incidentally, not only Scott, Foresman orders were billed separately. +There would be other publishers' orders on the same invoice. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, perhaps you might explain to the Commission just what +exactly the nature of your business is, and how an employee would go +about filling orders. + +Mr. TRULY. We are agents for a number of publishers. We furnish offices +for those who desire them in Texas. And our business is shipping, +inventorying, collecting, doing all the bookkeeping work for the +various publishers' books. + +Now, we have--most of the publishers' stock is lined up alphabetically +by titles or by stock numbers or code numbers, whichever determines +that. + +And the location of the books--each publisher's books are to +themselves. They are not mixed in with several other publishers on the +various floors. + +On the first floor we have bin stock, shelf stock, we fill a lot of +small orders from. + +And then in the basement the same. + +The fifth and the sixth floor, and part of the seventh floor is +overflow stock. It is reserve stock. + +But the boys have to go to those floors all during the day to pick up +stock and bring it to the first floor in order to process and complete +the orders for the checker. + +Mr. DULLES. What would reserve stock mean? + +Mr. TRULY. Actually it is not reserve stock--it is not surplus either. +It is part of our stock. But we can carry a limited amount only on the +first floor where we do our shipping. So they may get an order for a +hundred copies of a certain book and there may only be 10 or 15 or 20 +on the shelf on the first floor. They will have to go upstairs and get +a carton or two. And they replenish the first floor stock from that. + +And many of our freight orders are filled entirely from our reserve +stock. And they bring them to the first floor. All orders reach the +first floor, where they are checked and processed and packed and +shipped from that floor. + +Mr. BELIN. Where, generally, are Scott, Foresman books kept? + +Mr. TRULY. On the first floor and the sixth floor. We have a large +quantity of their books on the sixth floor. + +Mr. BELIN. And this is the area where Lee Harvey Oswald worked? + +Mr. TRULY. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. That publisher? + +Mr. TRULY. That publisher. He had occasion to go to the sixth floor +quite a number of times every day, each day, after books. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, when an order would come in, how would it get to the +individual employee, so the employee would go out and pick out the +books? + +Mr. TRULY. The orders came into our office and were processed by our +girls, priced and billed by the bill clerks, and then were sent down +a little chute to the first floor, a little dumbwaiter, regardless of +publisher. + +The boys would take them off of this dumbwaiter and carry them over on +to a little table near the checker stand. + +Various ones would sort out the publishers--sort out the orders by +publishers. + +Scott Foresman could be here, there would be a stock of Gregg and +Southwestern over here, we have a number of small publishers, maybe we +would group them altogether. And the boys usually know which particular +orders they are supposed to fill from, because they know the books, +they can tell. + +On each order it says, "SF" for Scott, Foresman on each invoice and so +forth. + +Mr. BELIN. Do they just pick up the piece of paper for the order and +carry them around with them? + +Mr. TRULY. That is right. Most of them use a clipboard. They may have +several orders at a time on the clipboard. That saves them going back +to the table continually for one order. These orders amount from +anything to $3 or $4 to $300 or $400, on up. + +But usually if a boy is filling Scott, Foresman's orders, for instance, +and he sees half a dozen over there, he will pick up maybe that many. + +But during our busy season, when we have stacks and stacks of orders on +the table, they don't try to put them all on a clipboard, they take a +few at a time--when they go to the sixth floor after stock, they try to +be certain what they need for several orders at one trip. + +Mr. BELIN. Who else worked on Scott, Foresman other than Lee Harvey +Oswald? + +Mr. TRULY. Well, I assume that all of our boys, all of our order +fillers have worked at some time or other, because when the boys finish +up the stocks they are working, the orders they are filling, if there +is anything left, regardless of publisher, they go fill it. + +But Scott, Foresman was one of our publishers that I would say would be +easiest for a new man to learn how to fill. + +And we have a lot of those orders. + +You can give a new man those orders, once he understands a little about +the alphabetical arrangement, the location of the stock, and he can go +ahead and fill orders, and you won't have to keep showing him things. +They are easier to fill. + +Usually the boys that fill a lot of the other orders are the boys that +have had more experience overall, they have been there some time, and +they will know the general location of all the stock, and it is just +easier for an experienced man to fill some other orders. + +Mr. BELIN. When they fill the orders, they go and get the books, and +bring them down to your wrapping and mailing section? + +Mr. TRULY. That is right. And they are checked to see that they are +in correct quantities and titles and called for on the order, or the +invoice. + +Then they are weighed up on parcel post scales, if they go by parcel +post, or they are processed over on the floor if they are big enough +for freight. + +Mr. BELIN. And, as I understand it, they would first look to see if the +title would be on the first floor in your bins, and then only if it +wasn't on the first floor would they go up to some of the upper floors +with your reserve stock, is that correct? + +Mr. TRULY. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of with regard to the particular +nature of the type of work that Lee Harvey Oswald did when he was +working for your company? + +Mr. TRULY. Nothing--except that we have occasionally--we would check +the number of orders that each boy filled per day, to see if he is +doing a day's work. And each invoice which is the billing of the order, +has a little section for a checker's number. And the order filler's +number. Our checker periodically would count at the end of the day the +number of orders that each order filler filled that day. + +We could tell at that time whether some of them were doing much more +work than others. + +And we also kept a list of mistakes that he catches a boy making, such +as filling the wrong quantity of books, or the wrong title. We didn't +do that every day, because it is a top heavy thing, and if we have to +keep a check on your boys all the time, it is not worthwhile. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you find generally--would you classify Lee Harvey +Oswald as an average employee--above average, or below average employee? + +Mr. TRULY. I would say for the nature of the work and the time he was +there, the work that he did was a bit above average. I wasn't on that +floor constantly. The boy, from all reports to me, and what I have seen +kept working and talked little to anybody else. He just kept moving. +And he did a good day's work. + +Mr. BELIN. What was his pay? + +Mr. TRULY. $1.25 an hour. + +Mr. BELIN. 5-day week? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he miss many days of work? + +Mr. TRULY. We had no record of him missing any days. + +Mr. BELIN. By the way, was your company open on Armistice Day, November +11th, or not? If you know. + +Mr. TRULY. We usually are closed on that day. + +Now, I just cannot remember whether we were closed that day or not. + +Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 496, +which appears to be a photostatic copy of a document, and I ask you to +state if you know what that is. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 496 for +identification.) + +Mr. TRULY. This is a copy of the application blank that Oswald filled +out. I am not familiar with his handwriting, because he didn't do +anything that we have records of. All the work that he ever did was put +his number or something. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, my first question is this: Is this particular form a +form of your company? + +Mr. TRULY. That is one form; yes. We changed it a little bit, and this +might have been just one that I pulled out. I can't recall whether it +is the one we use now or the one we did use. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, was this a form that you were using at about the time +he came for employment? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes. + +(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see him fill this out? Was it in your office or not? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes. He was sitting opposite me, and he filled it out on my +desk. + +Mr. BELIN. He filled this Exhibit 496 out on your desk? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. At this time we offer in evidence Exhibit 496. + +495 as yet has not been offered. And I don't know if 494 has been +offered or not. + +But, in the event it has not, we offer that in evidence. + +Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. + +(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission +Exhibits Nos. 494, 495, and 496 were received in evidence.) + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, are there any other observations you can give +about Lee Harvey Oswald as an employee during the month of October +1963, or during the month of November, prior to November 22, 1963? + +Mr. TRULY. Nothing that I can recall. + +I would speak to him in the morning when I would come through, and I +would say, "Good morning, Lee," and he would say, "Good morning, sir." + +I would ask him how he was. Occasionally I would ask about his baby, +and he would usually smile a big smile when I asked him how his new +baby was. And that was just about the extent of my conversation that I +can remember with the boy. + +But I usually saw him every morning as I would come through. He would +be working around the front part of the Scott, Foresman bins and shelf +space. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see whether or not he seemed to strike up any +friendship or acquaintanceship with the other employees? + +Mr. TRULY. No; I never noticed that anywheres. In fact, I would be +inclined--well--I never saw him with anyone else, except occasionally +talking, maybe asking where books were or something. + +I don't know what he would say. But very little conversation he had +with anyone. + +And he worked by himself. His job was something that he needed no help +with, other than to ask occasionally for stock. It wasn't a teamwork +job at all. + +Consequently, he didn't have much occasion to talk with the other boys. + +I thought it was a pretty good trait at the time, because occasionally +you have to spread your boys out and say, "Quit talking so much, let's +get to work." + +And it seemed to me like he paid attention to his job. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you notice whether or not he brought his lunch to work +generally? + +Mr. TRULY. I never was aware that he brought a lunch. I would see him +occasionally in the shipping department eating some little snack or +something--didn't pay much attention. Offhand, it seemed to be not too +much--a Coca-Cola, Dr. Pepper, and some little thing. + +Maybe he would be sitting there reading a book or a newspaper. + +Mr. BELIN. You would see him occasionally reading a newspaper at the +lunch hour? + +Mr. TRULY. I am sure so; yes. + +And occasionally--I didn't always go to lunch at 12--usually a +little after. And he would have to pass my door to go out the front. +Occasionally I had seen the boy go out, and maybe he would be gone long +enough to get across the street and back, with something in his hand. +I seem to recall possibly a newspaper, maybe potato chips or something +like that. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever have any discussions with him about politics or +anything like that? + +Mr. TRULY. Never. + +Mr. BELIN. Prior to November 22, did you have any discussion with him +about the Presidential motorcade, or hear him talk to anyone about it? + +Mr. TRULY. I never heard him talk to anyone, and I didn't talk to him +myself. + +Mr. BELIN. Any other things about Lee Harvey Oswald prior to November +22 that you can think of? + +Mr. TRULY. Offhand I cannot recall a thing. + +Just like I said--he seemed to go about his business in a quiet way, +didn't talk much, seemed to be doing a satisfactory job. + +Mr. BELIN. If you turn behind you, you will see Commission Exhibit No. +362, and it appears to be a floor plan which is entitled, "Texas School +Book Depository." You see the room marked Mr. Truly's office? + +Mr. TRULY. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. Does that appear to accurately depict where your office is +located? This is the front of the building here at the top. + +Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. And it was in the place marked Mr. Truly's office that Lee +Harvey Oswald filled out in front of you on your desk Exhibit 496? + +Mr. TRULY. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. And also the withholding slip? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Now I want to take you to the morning of November 22d. + +First let me ask you when you first heard your employees discussing +the fact that the motorcade would be going by the Texas School Book +Depository? Was that first on the morning of November 22d that you +heard that, or at any prior date? + +Mr. TRULY. I don't recall. I don't recall hearing any particular +discussion about him coming by. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +What time did you get to work on November 22d? + +Mr. TRULY. Around 8 o'clock, or shortly thereafter. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald at any time during that day? + +Mr. TRULY. I am almost certain that I saw him early that morning as I +came in, and spoke to him. + +Mr. BELIN. And where was he when you saw him? + +Mr. TRULY. I think he was around the front part of the Scott, Foresman +bins. + +Mr. BELIN. On what floor? + +Mr. TRULY. On the first floor. + +Mr. BELIN. Was he filling orders? + +Mr. TRULY. Apparently; yes, sir. I don't recall too close. But I am +almost certain that I talked to him that morning. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you recall any conversation you might have had with him, +or he might have had with you? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir. If there was anything, I just said "Good morning, +Lee", and he said, "Good morning, sir" and that would be the extent of +my conversation, if I saw him that morning, which I am almost certain I +did. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see him any other time during that day? + +Mr. TRULY. I cannot recall. I believe I saw him that morning later on, +around his work. But I probably wasn't on that floor too much, or out +on the floor that morning. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, when did you leave for lunch, Mr. Truly? + +Mr. TRULY. As near as I know, it was between somewheres around 12:10 or +shortly after, possibly 12:15. + +Mr. BELIN. At that time did you go out to lunch? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you go to eat? + +Mr. TRULY. We didn't go anywheres. Mr. Campbell and I---- + +Mr. BELIN. That is Mr. O. V. Campbell? + +Mr. TRULY. Mr. O. V. Campbell, vice president--and I had started out +for lunch. I don't know as we had any particular place in mind. We ate +at several places around there. + +It was around 12:10 or 12:15, I would say, to the nearest of my memory. + +As we got to the outside of the building, we noticed that it wouldn't +be long until the motorcade would come by, and we decided to wait and +watch the President come by. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where you were standing with Mr. Campbell? + +Mr. TRULY. I would judge out in Elm Street, 10 to 15 or 20 feet from +the front steps. We first stood on the steps, the bottom steps a few +minutes, and then we walked out in the line of spectators on the side +of Elm Street. + +Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 495, and +ask you to state, if you know, what this is. + +Mr. TRULY. This is the front entrance to our building. + +Mr. BELIN. In what direction would the camera be pointing? + +Mr. TRULY. Almost straight out from it. It would not be--well, it could +be on a little angle. + +Mr. BELIN. I mean would the camera be pointing east, west, north, or +south? + +Mr. TRULY. North. + +Mr. BELIN. And the camera would be pointing north on Exhibit 495. + +I wonder if on that exhibit you would put the place where you and Mr. +Campbell first stood, and mark that with the letter "A" if you would. + +Mr. TRULY. The street curved there, I suppose. I think possibly along +here somewheres. + +Mr. BELIN. You have marked a letter "A" on Exhibit 495. Now, I believe +you said that afterwards you went and moved out towards the street, is +that correct? + +Mr. TRULY. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. I am going to put up on the board Commission Exhibit No. +361. The bottom of the picture is relatively north, sir. + +And the top faces roughly south. + +And here is the Texas School Book Depository Building--located at +Houston and Elm. + +Mr. TRULY. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you could put on Exhibit 361 with the letter "T" +the spot at which you were standing when you moved to a closer position +to watch the motorcade. + +Mr. TRULY. I could be off a few feet, but I believe possibly over this +way just a bit--that is within 3 or 4 or 5 feet of this area. + +We were almost out in this. And I think when the motorcade came around, +we probably pushed out even a bit farther. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, by this, you are referring to the entrance to the +parkway, is that correct? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. And you say that you are either at the spot marked by the +letter "T" or perhaps a little bit to the east of that? + +Mr. TRULY. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. And that you gradually might have moved a little bit towards +the south, towards the parkway, is that correct? + +Mr. TRULY. That is correct. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Do you know approximately what time you got there, Mr. Truly? To the +best of your recollection. + +Mr. TRULY. 3 or 4 minutes after we reached the entrance, the walkway, +we stood on the steps 2 or 3 minutes, and then I don't believe--we just +gradually moved out a bit. + +And then when the policemen leading the motorcade came off of Main on +to Houston, we saw them coming, and then we just moved out a little +farther to the edge of the parkway. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you notice any other company employees with you other +than Mr. Campbell at that time? + +Mr. TRULY. Well, I did. I noticed several. Mrs. Reid was standing +there close. And it seemed like there were several of the other +employees standing out in front of the building. But I cannot--I +think Bill Shelley was standing over to my right as I faced the +motorcade--somewheres in that area. + +I noticed just before the motorcade passed there were, I believe, three +of our colored boys had come out and started up, and two of them came +back. And I didn't see them when the motorcade passed. + +But they had started across Houston Street up Elm, and they came back +later on, and I think those were the ones that were--two of them were +the ones on the fifth floor. Possibly they could not see over the +crowd. They are short boys. I wasn't doing too well at that, myself. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +What did you next see with reference to the motorcade? + +Mr. TRULY. Do you mind me---- + +Mr. BELIN. Do you want to turn that over, sir? Will that be easier for +you? + +Mr. TRULY. It might be easier for the gentlemen when I point this out. + +Now, what was the question? + +Mr. BELIN. My question is what did you see with reference to the +motorcade? + +Mr. TRULY. All right. + +We saw the motorcycle escort come off of Main and turn onto Houston +Street. + +Mr. BELIN. Main would be down here, and it would be coming off Houston, +heading towards the building? + +Mr. TRULY. Headed towards the building. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. TRULY. And it went on down this way. And immediately after---- + +Mr. BELIN. By "this way" you mean the street marked Parkway? + +Mr. TRULY. I assume that is the underpass that you have marked Parkway. + +Mr. BELIN. The street leading to the expressway, that diagonal street? + +Mr. TRULY. That is right. + +And the President's car following close behind came along at an average +speed of 10 or 15 miles an hour. It wasn't that much, because they were +getting ready to turn. And the driver of the Presidential car swung out +too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into +this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed +down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the +middle lane of the parkway. Not being familiar with the street, he came +too far out this way when he made his turn. + +Mr. BELIN. He came too far to the north before he made his curve, and +as he curved--as he made his left turn from Houston onto the street +leading to the expressway, he almost hit this north curb? + +Mr. TRULY. That is right. Just before he got to it, he had to almost +stop, to pull over to the left. + +If he had maintained his speed, he would probably have hit this little +section here. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Now, what is your best estimate of the speed as he started to go down +the street here marked Parkway? + +Mr. TRULY. He picked up a little speed along here, and then seemed to +have fallen back into line, and I would say 10 or 12 miles an hour in +this area. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Then what did you see happen? + +Mr. TRULY. I heard an explosion, which I thought was a toy cannon or a +loud firecracker from west of the building. Nothing happened at this +first explosion. Everything was frozen. And immediately after two more +explosions, which I realized that I thought was a gun, a rifle of some +kind. + +The President's--I saw the President's car swerve to the left and stop +somewheres down in this area. It is misleading here. And that is the +last I saw of his car, because this crowd, when the third shot rang +out--there was a large crowd all along this abutment here, this little +wall, and there was some around us in front--they began screaming +and falling to the ground. And the people in front of myself and Mr. +Campbell surged back, either in terror or panic. They must have seen +this thing. I became separated from Mr. Campbell. They just practically +bore me back to the first step on the entrance of our building. + +Mr. BELIN. When you saw the President's car seem to stop, how long did +it appear to stop? + +Mr. TRULY. It would be hard to say over a second or two or something +like that. I didn't see--I just saw it stop. I don't know. I didn't see +it start up. + +Mr. BELIN. Then you stopped looking at it, or you were distracted by +something else? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes. The crowd in front of me kind of congealed around me +and bore me back through weight of numbers, and I lost sight of it. + +I think there were a lot of people trying to get out of the way of +something. They didn't know what. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do or see? + +Mr. TRULY. I heard a policeman in this area along here make a remark, +"Oh, goddam," or something like that. I just remember that. It +wasn't a motorcycle policeman. It was one of the Dallas policeman, I +think--words to that effect. + +I wouldn't know him. I just remember there was a policeman standing +along in this area about 7, 8, or 10 feet from me. + +But as I came back here, and everybody was screaming and hollering, +just moments later I saw a young motorcycle policeman run up to the +building, up the steps to the entrance of our building. He ran right +by me. And he was pushing people out of the way. He pushed a number of +people out of the way before he got to me. I saw him coming through, I +believe. As he ran up the stairway--I mean up the steps, I was almost +to the steps, I ran up and caught up with him. I believe I caught up +with him inside the lobby of the building, or possibly the front steps. +I don't remember that close. But I remember it occurred to me that +this man wants on top of the building. He doesn't know the plan of the +floor. And that is--that just popped in my mind, and I ran in with him. +As we got in the lobby, almost on the inside of the first floor, this +policeman asked me where the stairway is. And I said, "This way". And I +ran diagonally across to the northwest corner of the building. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, let me, if I can--turning to Exhibit 362 again, I +wonder if you would, with this--we can first do it with this pen, if +you would--trace your route inside there. Point out the place inside +the lobby where you talked to the policeman, where he said "where is +the stairway." + +Mr. TRULY. I believe along right there. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Could you put a "T" on Exhibit 362, if you would. + +Mr. TRULY. I could be wrong, but I am almost positive that is the place. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Now--and this is inside the glass or plastic set of doors shown on +Exhibit 495, is that correct? + +Mr. TRULY. That is correct. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, he said to you what? + +Mr. TRULY. Where is the stairway. + +Mr. BELIN. And what did you say to him? + +Mr. TRULY. I said "This way." + +Mr. BELIN. Now, I wonder if you would take this pen and show the route +that you took with the policeman, or take your own pen, if you would, +sir--starting from point "T" on Exhibit 362. + +Mr. TRULY. I ran in front of him. + +Mr. BELIN. You better mark on the exhibit, sir. + +Mr. TRULY. Took this route. There is a swinging door and a counter, +what we call our will call counter right here. + +Mr. BELIN. Is it here, or here? + +Mr. TRULY. No, wait a minute. + +There--right here. We came in this way. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you still want to put point "T" up here? + +Mr. TRULY. No. This was on the steps, wasn't it? This is where I am +sure he asked me. + +Mr. BELIN. You better cross out the other one, then. + +Mr. TRULY. I saw this thing here, and I thought it was that little +swinging door. + +Mr. BELIN. That would be the main door? + +Now, you have point "T." + +Now, will you trace the route from point "T"? + +Mr. TRULY. We came through this door here. The policeman right behind +me. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. TRULY. This is a counter and this is a counter built in that cut +inside--this is where our customers come that pick up books. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +When you are pointing to the counter on Exhibit 362, you are pointing +to a rectangle that appears to be located immediately to the west of +the glass--looks like a glass partition to your office, is that correct? + +Mr. TRULY. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. You call that the will call counter? + +Mr. TRULY. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. What happened when you got there? + +Mr. TRULY. There is a little swinging door that swings in and out that +we have there. We never keep it locked. But on the bottom is a little +bolt that you can lock it to keep people from pulling it out or pushing +it in. And this bolt had slid out. It has done that on occasions. I +started to run through this little opening, and I ran into the door, +and the bolt hung against the side of the counter, and the policeman +ran into my back. And so I just pulled it back and continued on through. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Now, the door didn't swing through. The bolt stuck. So you were stuck +by the door. The policeman ran into you. And then you had to stop and +pull the door back and go through it. + +Mr. TRULY. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go? You might continue with your pen on +Exhibit 362, showing the route. + +All right. + +Now, you have cut sort of diagonally across towards the rear, and you +have come to the west elevator in the rear. + +Mr. TRULY. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this, Mr. Truly. I note on Exhibit 362 right +where you came in there appears to be some stairs there. Why didn't you +go up those stairs, instead of running to the back? + +Mr. TRULY. Those stairs only reached to the second floor, and they +wouldn't have any way of getting up to the top without going to the +back stairway. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. TRULY. So this is the logical stairway that goes all the way to the +seventh floor. + +Mr. BELIN. And you are pointing to the stairway in what would be the +northwest corner? + +Mr. TRULY. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, you got to the elevator, and what did you do then? + +Mr. TRULY. I looked up. This is two elevators in the same well. This +elevator over here---- + +Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to the west one? + +Mr. TRULY. I am pointing to the west one. This elevator was on the +fifth floor. Also, the east elevator--as far as I can tell--both of +them were on the fifth floor at that time. + +This elevator will come down if the gates are down, and you push a +button. + +Representative FORD. Which elevator is that? + +Mr. TRULY. The west one. But the east one will not come down unless you +get on it and bring it down. You cannot call it if the gates are down. + +Representative FORD. That is the east elevator? + +Mr. TRULY. The east elevator? + +There is a button and a little bell here. I pressed---- + +Mr. BELIN. You might put a "B" on Exhibit 362 by the elevator for +"button." + +Mr. TRULY. That is right on this surface. There is a little button. I +pressed the button and the elevator didn't move. + +I called upstairs "Turn loose the elevator." + +Mr. BELIN. When you say call up, in what kind of a voice did you call? + +Mr. TRULY. Real loud. I suppose in an excited voice. But loud enough +that anyone could have heard me if they had not been over stacking or +making a little noise. But I rang the bell and pushed this button. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you call? + +Mr. TRULY. I said, "Turn loose the elevator." + +Those boys understand that language. + +Mr. BELIN. What does that mean? + +Mr. TRULY. That means if they have the gates up, they go pull the gates +down, and when you press the button, you can pull it down. + +Mr. BELIN. And how many times did you yell that? + +Mr. TRULY. Two times. + +Mr. BELIN. After you had first pushed the button? + +Mr. TRULY. That is right. I had pressed the button twice, I believe, +and called up for the elevator twice. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +First of all, did the elevator come down? + +Mr. TRULY. It did not. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Then what did you do? + +Mr. TRULY. I went up on a run up the stairway. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you again follow--from Point B, could you show which +way you went? + +All right. + +Mr. TRULY. What is this here? + +Mr. BELIN. This is to show this is a stairway, and there is a stairway +above it, too. But you went up the stairs right here? + +Mr. TRULY. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. Okay. And where was this officer at that time? + +Mr. TRULY. This officer was right behind me and coming up the stairway. + +By the time I reached the second floor, the officer was a little +further behind me than he was on the first floor, I assume--I know. + +Mr. BELIN. Was he a few feet behind you then? + +Mr. TRULY. He was a few feet. It is hard for me to tell. I ran right on +around to my left, started to continue on up the stairway to the third +floor, and on up. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, when you say you ran on to your left, did you look +straight ahead to see whether there was anyone in that area, or were +you intent on just going upstairs? + +Mr. TRULY. If there had been anybody in that area, I would have seen +him on the outside. But I was content--I was trying to show the officer +the pathway up, where the elevators--I mean where the stairways +continued. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, I hand you what has been marked Exhibit 497. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 497, for +identification.) + +Mr. BELIN. This is entitled "Texas School Book Depository, Diagram of +Second Floor." + +You can sit down, if you would, please, Mr. Truly. + +And would you, on Exhibit 497, if you would kind of take an arrow to +show the route that you took going out--or up from the first floor, and +starting up the stairs towards the third. + +Now, you marked that with pen. + +Could you put a "T" on that, if you would, please? + +Now, there appears to be some kind of a vestibule or hall of one kind +or another with the No. 22 in a circle on it, on Exhibit 497. Is this +completely clear, or are there books there from time to time? + +Mr. TRULY. No; that is always clear. There is a few cartons of office +stock, invoices, blank invoices and stationery and stuff up and down +here. But there is always a pathway. There is a post, right about where +this 22 is. You can always clear it and come by there. I don't think +there would ever be stock here that would obstruct your view of the +other area across there. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, I hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 498. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 498 for +identification.) + +Mr. BELIN. I ask you to state, if you know what this is. + +Mr. TRULY. Yes. This is the vestibule, when you first come up the +stairs on the second floor--this is what you will find right there. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, as you take a look at the picture Exhibit 498, is this +a post immediately to the left side of the picture, to the extreme left +of the picture? + +Mr. TRULY. No. + +Mr. BELIN. What is this, to the extreme left? Is that the wall for the +staircase? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes; there is an opening on this side, and the staircase is +back over here. This picture is just part of this vestibule out here. + +Mr. BELIN. And what direction does the camera appear to be pointing, or +what is shown there? + +Mr. TRULY. It appears to be pointing east. + +Mr. BELIN. And I see a door with a glass in it. + +Could you show where on this diagram Exhibit 497 this door with the +glass is? + +Do you see a number with an arrow pointing to the door? + +Mr. TRULY. That is it. + +Mr. BELIN. What number is that? + +Mr. TRULY. It is number 23. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Number 23, the arrow points to the door that has +the glass in it. + +Now, as you raced around, how far did you start up the stairs towards +the third floor there? + +Mr. TRULY. I suppose I was up two or three steps before I realized the +officer wasn't following me. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. TRULY. I came back to the second floor landing. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you see? + +Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the +lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. And I see that there appears to be on the second +floor diagram, a room marked lunchroom. + +Mr. TRULY. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? + +Mr. TRULY. I ran over and looked in this door No. 23. + +Mr. BELIN. Through the glass, or was the door open? + +Mr. TRULY. I don't know. I think I opened the door. I feel like I did. +I don't remember. + +Mr. BELIN. It could have been open or it could have been closed, you do +not remember? + +Mr. TRULY. The chances are it was closed. + +Mr. BELIN. You thought you opened it? + +Mr. TRULY. I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in +this way. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you see? + +Mr. TRULY. I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the +lunchroom facing Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. BELIN. And where was Lee Harvey Oswald at the time you saw him? + +Mr. TRULY. He was at the front of the lunchroom, not very far +inside--he was just inside the lunchroom door. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. TRULY. 2 or 3 feet, possibly. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you put an "O" where you saw Lee Harvey Oswald? + +All right. + +You have put an "O" on Exhibit 497. + +What did you see or hear the officer say or do? + +Mr. TRULY. When I reached there, the officer had his gun pointing at +Oswald. The officer turned this way and said, "This man work here?" And +I said, "Yes." + +Mr. BELIN. And then what happened? + +Mr. TRULY. Then we left Lee Harvey Oswald immediately and continued to +run up the stairways until we reached the fifth floor. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Let me ask you this now. How far was the officer's gun from Lee Harvey +Oswald when he asked the question? + +Mr. TRULY. It would be hard for me to say, but it seemed to me like it +was almost touching him. + +Mr. BELIN. What portion of his body? + +Mr. TRULY. Towards the middle portion of his body. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you see Lee Harvey Oswald's hands? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you see---- + +Mr. TRULY. I am sure I could, yes. I could see most of him, because I +was looking in the room on an angle, and they were this way. + +Mr. BELIN. When you say you were looking in the room on an angle---- + +Mr. TRULY. What I mean--this door offsets the lunchroom door. + +Mr. BELIN. By this door, you mean door No. 23 is at an angle to door +No. 24? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes. One this way and the other one is this way. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Could you see whether or not Lee Harvey Oswald had anything in either +hand? + +Mr. TRULY. I noticed nothing in either hand. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see both of his hands? + +Mr. TRULY. I am sure I did. I could be wrong, but I am almost sure I +did. + +Mr. BELIN. About how long did Officer Baker stand there with Lee Harvey +Oswald after you saw them? + +Mr. TRULY. He left him immediately after I told him--after he asked me, +does this man work here. I said, yes. The officer left him immediately. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you hear Lee Harvey Oswald say anything? + +Mr. TRULY. Not a thing. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see any expression on his face? Or weren't you +paying attention? + +Mr. TRULY. He didn't seem to be excited or overly afraid or anything. +He might have been a bit startled, like I might have been if somebody +confronted me. But I cannot recall any change in expression of any kind +on his face. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, I hand you what the reporter has marked as Exhibit 499. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 499 for +identification.) + +Mr. BELIN. I ask you to state if you know what this is. + +Mr. TRULY. That is the interior of the lunchroom. + +Mr. BELIN. And what direction does the camera appear to be pointing on +Exhibit 499? + +Mr. TRULY. East. + +Mr. BELIN. And does this appear to be the doorway in the very +foreground of the picture? + +Mr. TRULY. I believe so. + +Representative FORD. Which doorway would that be? + +Mr. TRULY. Number 24. The camera seems to be right in the doorway when +that picture was taken. You cannot see the doorway very well. + +Mr. DULLES. May I ask you a question? + +Do you know why it was that the officer didn't follow you up the +stairs, but instead was distracted, as it were, and went with Lee +Harvey Oswald into the lunchroom? + +Mr. TRULY. I never knew until a day or two ago that he said he saw a +movement, saw a man going away from him. + +Mr. DULLES. As he was going up the stairs? + +Mr. TRULY. As he got to the second floor landing. While I was going +around, he saw a movement. + +Mr. DULLES. And he followed that? + +Mr. TRULY. That is right. + +Representative FORD. He saw a movement in the lunchroom or a man go +into the lunchroom? + +Mr. TRULY. He saw the back of a man inside the door--I suppose door No. +23. + +But that isn't my statement. I didn't learn about that, you see, until +the other day. + +Mr. BELIN. I believe we have some additional pictures of the lunchroom. +Perhaps we can just briefly identify them. + +Here is a picture which has been marked Commission Exhibit 500. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 500 for +identification.) + +Mr. BELIN. I will ask you to state what this is. + +Mr. TRULY. This is a picture of the lunchroom. + +Mr. BELIN. What direction is the camera facing there? + +Mr. TRULY. East. + +Mr. BELIN. What about Exhibit 501? + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 501 for +identification.) + +Mr. TRULY. This picture is part of the lunchroom. And I would say the +camera must be facing northeast. + +Mr. BELIN. What about Exhibit 502? + +Mr. TRULY. This is the lunchroom looking west. Northwest, I would say. + +Mr. BELIN. Is this door clear to the left of the picture, the door in +which you saw Officer Baker standing when he was talking to Lee Harvey +Oswald? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Truly, you then went up to the third floor with +Officer Baker. + +Mr. TRULY. We continued on until we reached the fifth floor. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, by the way, I have used the name Officer Baker. + +When did you find out what his name was? + +Mr. TRULY. I never did know for sure what his name was until he was +down to the building and you were interviewing him last week. + +Mr. BELIN. This was on Friday, March 20th? + +Mr. TRULY. I had heard his name was Baker or Burton or various other +names. But I never did try to find out what his name was. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 502 for +identification.) + +Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Truly, did you notice when you got to the third +floor--first of all. On the second floor, was there any elevator there? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What about the third floor? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Fourth floor? + +Mr. TRULY. No, I am sure not. + +Mr. BELIN. What about the fifth floor? + +Mr. TRULY. When we reached the fifth floor, the east elevator was on +that floor. + +Mr. BELIN. What about the west elevator? Was that on the fifth floor? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir. I am sure it wasn't, or I could not have seen the +east elevator. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. TRULY. I am almost positive that it wasn't there. + +Mr. DULLES. You said you released the elevator and let it go down? + +Mr. TRULY. No; the east elevator was the one on the fifth floor. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, Exhibit 487 appears to be a diagram of the fifth floor. +As I understand it, you might mark on that diagram the way you went +from the stairs over to the east elevator. + +Mr. TRULY. Well, I started around towards the stairway, and then I +noted that this east elevator was there. So I told the officer, "Come +on, here is an elevator," and then we ran down to the east side, and +got on the east elevator. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you put the letter "T" at the end of that line, please? + +All right. + +Now, where did you go with the east elevator, to what floor? + +Mr. TRULY. We rode the east elevator to the seventh floor. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you stop at the sixth floor at all? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the seventh floor? + +Mr. TRULY. We ran up a little stairway that leads out through a little +penthouse on to the roof. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do on the roof? + +Mr. TRULY. We ran immediately to the west side of the building. There +is a wall around the building that you cannot see over without getting +your foot between the mortar of the stones and, or some such toehold. +We did that and looked over the ground and the railroad tracks below. +There we saw many officers and a lot of spectators, people running up +and down. + +Mr. BELIN. Did the officer say to you why he wanted to go up to the +roof? + +Mr. TRULY. No. At that time, he didn't. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he ever prior to meeting you again on March 20th tell +you why he wanted to go on the roof? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you think the shots came from? + +Mr. TRULY. I thought the shots came from the vicinity of the railroad +or the WPA project, behind the WPA project west of the building. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you have any conversation with the officer that you can +remember? About where you thought the shots came from? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes. When--some time in the course, I believe, after we +reached the roof, the officer looked down over the boxcars and the +railroad tracks and the crowd below. Then he looked around the edge of +the roof for any evidence of anybody being there. And then looked up at +the runways and the big sign on the roof. + +He saw nothing. + +He came over. And some time about then I said, "Officer, I +think"--let's back up. + +I believe the officer told me as we walked down into the seventh floor, +"Be careful, this man will blow your head off." + +And I told the officer that I didn't feel like the shots came from the +building. + +I said, "I think we are wasting our time up here," or words to that +effect, "I don't believe these shots came from the building." + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything to that at all? + +Mr. TRULY. I don't recall exactly what he said. I believe he said, +yes, or somebody said they did, or some such thing as that. I don't +remember. I have heard so many things since, you know. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Now, Mr. Truly, on March 20th, you and I visited about this particular +incident you have related about the running into the building and up +the stairs with this officer, is that correct? + +Mr. TRULY. That is correct. + +Mr. BELIN. And as a matter of fact you and Officer Baker and I tried to +reconstruct the incident in an effort to determine how long it took you +to do all this, is that correct? + +Mr. TRULY. That is correct. + +Mr. BELIN. And do you remember watching me getting over with Officer +Baker in front of the sheriff's office on Market Street--pardon +me--Houston Street, with a stopwatch? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. And then you saw Officer Baker race his motorcycle over and +come in front of the building, and then you ran in with him, is that +correct? + +Mr. TRULY. That is correct. + +Mr. BELIN. And then what is the fact as to whether or not you and +Officer Baker and I recreated the incident as you have testified to +here, going into the lobby with the conversation you had with Officer +Baker, and running into that swinging door, and going back to the +elevator and pushing the elevator button, and then calling or yelling +twice for the elevator to come down, and then coming up the stairs to +the second floor. Do you remember that? + +Mr. TRULY. I remember that. + +Mr. BELIN. When we recreated that incident, did we walk or run? + +Mr. TRULY. We walked. We trotted. + +Mr. BELIN. We trotted. + +Did we get out of breath, do you remember? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did we go at about the speed that you feel you went on that +day with Officer Baker? + +Mr. TRULY. I think so--which was a little more than a trot, I would say. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember offhand what the stopwatch timed us at--I +think we did it twice, is that correct? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir--not from the time that he got on his motorcycle, I +don't remember. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. TRULY. But I was thinking it was somewheres under 2 minutes. +Between a minute and a half and 2 minutes. + +Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, I think, will be able to testify to that in +the morning. + +Representative FORD. But in reconstructing the incident, you went more +or less at a similar pace, took about the same time you did on November +22d? + +Mr. TRULY. As far as I can tell; yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. You ran at about the same speed, do you believe? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes; I believe so. + +We tried to--we had a few people we had to push our way through to +start in the building the other time, and possibly didn't run quite so +fast at first. + +Mr. BELIN. Would you say that again? + +Mr. TRULY. I said when the officer and I ran in, we were shouldering +people aside in front of the building, so we possibly were slowed a +little bit more coming in than we were when he and I came in March +20th. I don't believe so. But it wouldn't be enough to matter there. + +Mr. BELIN. Would you say that the reconstruction that we did on March +20th was a minimum or a maximum time? + +Mr. TRULY. Oh, I would say that would be the minimum time. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, when you took the elevator to the fifth--from the +fifth to the seventh floor, that east elevator did you see the west +elevator at all as you passed the sixth floor, when you got to the +seventh floor? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir; because--I could not see the west elevator while +operating the east elevator. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean because you were not looking at it, or you just +couldn't see it? + +Mr. TRULY. Well, the back of the east elevator is solid metal, and if I +passed--yes; I could. I beg your pardon. + +I could see it from the fifth floor. I didn't notice it anywheres up +there. I wasn't really looking for it, however. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, after you got--when did you notice that west elevator +next? If you know. + +Mr. TRULY. I don't know. + +Mr. BELIN. I believe you said when you first saw the elevators, you +thought they were both on the same floor, the fifth floor. + +Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then how do you explain that when you got to the fifth +floor, one of the elevators was not there? + +Mr. TRULY. I don't know, sir. I think one of my boys was getting stock +off the fifth floor on the back side, and probably moved the elevator +at the time--somewheres between the time we were running upstairs. +And I would not have remembered that. I mean I wouldn't have really +heard that, with the commotion we were making running up the enclosed +stairwell. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone on the fifth floor? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes. When coming down I am sure I saw Jack Dougherty getting +some books off the fifth floor. + +Now, this is so dim in my mind that I could be making a mistake. + +But I believe that he was getting some stock, that he had already gone +back to work, and that he was getting some stock off the fifth floor. + +Mr. BELIN. You really don't know who was operating the elevator, then, +is that correct? + +Mr. TRULY. That is correct. + +Mr. BELIN. What is your best guess? + +Mr. TRULY. My best guess is that Jack Dougherty was. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, after you got down from the seventh floor, you then +went down to the sixth floor with Officer Baker? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he look around on the sixth floor at all or not? + +Mr. TRULY. Just before we got on the elevator on the seventh floor, +Officer Baker ran over and looked in a little room on the seventh +floor, and glanced around on that floor, which is open, and it didn't +take much of a search. And then we reached the sixth floor. I stopped. +He glanced over the sixth floor quickly. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you see the southeast corner of the sixth floor from +there? + +Mr. TRULY. I don't think so; no, sir. You could not. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what? + +Mr. TRULY. Then we continued on down, and we saw officers on the fourth +floor. + +I don't recall that we stopped any more until we reached the first +floor. But I do recall there was an officer on the fourth floor, by the +time we got down that far. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +And then you got down eventually to the first floor? + +Mr. TRULY. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. About how long after these shots do you think it took you to +go all the way up and look around the roof and come all the way down +again? + +Mr. TRULY. Oh, we might have been gone between 5 and 10 minutes. It is +hard to say. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got back to the first floor, or +what did you see? + +Mr. TRULY. When I got back to the first floor, at first I didn't see +anything except officers running around, reporters in the place. There +was a regular madhouse. + +Mr. BELIN. Had they sealed off the building yet, do you know? + +Mr. TRULY. I am sure they had. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what? + +Mr. TRULY. Then in a few minutes--it could have been moments or minutes +at a time like that--I noticed some of my boys were over in the west +corner of the shipping department, and there were several officers over +there taking their names and addresses, and so forth. + +There were other officers in other parts of the building taking other +employees, like office people's names. I noticed that Lee Oswald was +not among these boys. + +So I picked up the telephone and called Mr. Aiken down at the other +warehouse who keeps our application blanks. Back up there. + +First I mentioned to Mr. Campbell--I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen +him, he looked around and said no. + +Mr. BELIN. When you asked Bill Shelley if he had seen whom? + +Mr. TRULY. Lee Oswald. I said, "Have you seen him around lately," and +he said no. + +So Mr. Campbell is standing there, and I said, "I have a boy over here +missing. I don't know whether to report it or not." Because I had +another one or two out then. I didn't know whether they were all there +or not. He said, "What do you think"? And I got to thinking. He said, +"Well, we better do it anyway." It was so quick after that. + +So I picked the phone up then and called Mr. Aiken, at the warehouse, +and got the boy's name and general description and telephone number and +address at Irving. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you have any address for him in Dallas, or did you just +have an address in Irving? + +Mr. TRULY. Just the address in Irving. I knew nothing of this Dallas +address. I didn't know he was living away from his family. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, would that be the address and the description as shown +on this application, Exhibit 496? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ask for the name and addresses of any other +employees who might have been missing? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Why didn't you ask for any other employees? + +Mr. TRULY. That is the only one that I could be certain right then was +missing. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after you got that information? + +Mr. TRULY. Chief Lumpkin of the Dallas Police Department was standing +a few feet from me. I told Chief Lumpkin that I had a boy missing over +here--"I don't know whether it amounts to anything or not." And I gave +him his description. And he says, "Just a moment. We will go tell +Captain Fritz." + +Mr. BELIN. All right. And then what happened? + +Mr. TRULY. So Chief Lumpkin had several officers there that he was +talking to, and I assumed that he gave him some instructions of some +nature--I didn't hear it. And then he turned to me and says, "Now we +will go upstairs". + +So we got on one of the elevators, I don't know which, and rode up to +the sixth floor. I didn't know Captain Fritz was on the sixth floor. +And he was over in the northwest corner of the building. + +Mr. BELIN. By the stairs there? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes; by the stairs. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. TRULY. And there were other officers with him. Chief Lumpkin +stepped over and told Captain Fritz that I had something that I wanted +to tell him. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. And then what happened? + +Mr. TRULY. So Captain Fritz left the men he was with and walked over +about 8 or 10 feet and said, "What is it, Mr. Truly," or words to that +effect. + +And I told him about this boy missing and gave him his address and +telephone number and general description. And he says, "Thank you, Mr. +Truly. We will take care of it." + +And I went back downstairs in a few minutes. + +There was a reporter followed me away from that spot, and asked me +who Oswald was. I told the reporter, "You must have ears like a bird, +or something. I don't want to say anything about a boy I don't know +anything about. This is a terrible thing." Or words to that effect. + +I said, "Don't bother me. Don't mention the name. Let's find something +out." + +So I went back downstairs with Chief Lumpkin. + +Mr. BELIN. When you got on the sixth floor, did you happen to go over +to the southeast corner of the sixth floor at about that time or not? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I sure didn't. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you get over to the southeast corner of the sixth +floor? + +Mr. TRULY. That I can't answer. I don't remember when I went over +there. It was sometime before I learned that they had found either +the rifle or the spent shell cases. It could have been at the time I +went up and told them about Lee Harvey Oswald being missing. I cannot +remember. But I didn't know it. I didn't see them find them, and I +didn't know at the time--I don't know how long they had the things. + +Mr. BELIN. There has been some testimony here, Mr. Truly, about some +bins for storing books on the fifth floor near the stairway. I am going +to hand you an exhibit which has been marked as Commission Exhibit 490, +and ask you to state, if you know--were you there when these pictures +were taken on the fifth floor? On Friday, March 20th? + +The CHAIRMAN. The fifth floor? + +Mr. BELIN. The fifth floor; yes, sir. + +Mr. TRULY. Yes; I was, I believe. Some of them I may not have been when +all of them were taken. I was not there when this picture was taken, +no, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. You are familiar with those bins on the fifth floor, are you +not? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. How long have those bins by the stairway been there? + +Mr. TRULY. Well, it would be hard for me to say, but they have been +there, I suppose, almost from the time we moved in--nearly 2 years. +They were there at the time of November 22. + +Mr. BELIN. On Commission Exhibit 487, the line marked "W", will you +state whether or not this appears to be the approximate line where the +bins are located? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes, it would be. + +Mr. BELIN. Can you see over those bins? + +Mr. TRULY. You cannot. + +Mr. BELIN. I mean when you are at the window--say you are in the +southwest corner. + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir; you cannot. They obscure the stairway. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Now, there was a floor laying project that was going along on the sixth +floor at about the time of November 22, is that correct? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Handing you Commission Exhibit 483, could you state, if +you know, approximately where on the sixth floor they were laying new +plywood floor around November 22d? + +Mr. TRULY. This is it---- + +Mr. BELIN. This is north right here? + +Mr. TRULY. They were in this area right here. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, there is a blank line that appears to have a "W" at +one end or the other. Would that be a fairly accurate---- + +Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; in the west end of the building. + +Mr. BELIN. Where they were laying the floor? + +Mr. TRULY. That is where they were laying the floor. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, when you were--were you familiar with the fact that +they had moved books in the process of laying that floor? + +Mr. TRULY. I knew they had to. I didn't know where they moved them +particularly until that time. I don't suppose I had been up on that +floor in several days. + +Mr. BELIN. By that time, you mean November 22? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did it appear that they had moved them? + +Mr. TRULY. They moved a long row of books down parallel to the windows +on the south side, following the building, and had quite a lot of +cartons on the north--let's see--the southeast corner of the building. + +Mr. BELIN. Sometime on November 22d did you go to the southeast corner +of the building? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you notice anything particularly about the books that +were in the southeast corner? + +Mr. TRULY. I didn't at that time--with the exception of a few cartons +that were moved. But I did not know any pattern that the boys used in +putting these cartons up there. They were just piled up there more or +less at that time. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, handing you what has been marked as Exhibit 503, which +is a picture, does this appear to portray the southeast corner of the +sixth floor as you saw it on November 22d? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 503 for +identification.) + +Mr. BELIN. Now, I notice some rows of books along the east wall. Did +those books go all the way to the corner or not? + +Mr. TRULY. They did not in front of the window extend very much in +height, but they did go all the way on the floor to the corner of the +building. + +Mr. BELIN. Was this prior to November 22d? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. When you got there on November 22d, did those books still go +to the corner of the east wall of the sixth floor? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir. There were several cartons that had been moved out +of the corner and apparently placed on top of the cartons next to them +in front of the east window. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you have any books that are called Rolling Readers? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know what floor those Rolling Readers are usually +kept on? + +Mr. TRULY. The first floor and the sixth floor. Most of them are on the +sixth floor. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know where on the sixth floor the Rolling Readers are? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Approximately where? + +Mr. TRULY. They were--I would say they were thirty or forty feet from +the corner. They were not in the area that the boys moved books from. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, handing you Exhibit 483, I wonder if you would mark +with your pen the letters "RR" for Rolling Readers. Would there have +been any occasion at all to move any Rolling Readers from the area you +have marked on Exhibit 483 to the southeast corner of the sixth floor? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir; because the boys had not finished much of the +plywood work, and they would--none of that stock was moved at that time +for any purpose. + +Mr. BELIN. Are the Rolling Reader cartons average size or small size or +large size? + +Mr. TRULY. They are much smaller than the average size cartons on that +floor. + +Mr. McCLOY. Do you intend to offer all of these exhibits en bloc later +on? + +Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. + +Now, handing you Commission Exhibit 504, there appear to be some +boxes near a window on a floor of your building. And I note that on +two of the boxes they are marked "Ten Rolling Readers." Are those the +Rolling Reader cartons that you referred to, with the letters "RR" on +Commission Exhibit 483? + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 504 for +identification.) + +Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; that is right. + +Representative FORD. The Rolling Reader boxes were not ordinarily in +that southeast corner? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir. That was not the place for them. They were 40 feet +or so away. + +Representative FORD. May I ask--the job that Oswald had, how did you +designate it? + +Mr. TRULY. Well, he filled orders. + +Representative FORD. He was an order filler? + +Mr. TRULY. Order filler. + +Representative FORD. Do you keep records of the orders that are filled +by each order filler every day? + +Mr. TRULY. Not every day; no, sir. Occasionally we would double check +on the employees, or the checker would count up the number and give +me the number each employee filled in that day, or several days in +succession for a whole week. + +Representative FORD. Would you know what orders Oswald filled November +22d? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I would not. + +Representative FORD. You would have no way of checking that? + +Mr. TRULY. No. They would have been some orders that he filled the 21st +that were not checked and out of the house on the 22d. And I could not +tell how many he filled or when he filled his orders, no, sir. + +Representative FORD. When an order filler fills an order, does he make +his initial or mark on it? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; he does. Up there where it says "L", which is +layout, he puts his number, and then the checker puts his number under +"C" when he checks the order and sees that it is all right, and sends +it on for packing. + +Representative FORD. Well, it would seem to me that every order that +was filled on a particular day by an order filler could be identified +as to the individual. + +Mr. TRULY. You see, we don't always get out our orders the same day +they are shipped. The order fillers fill lots of orders, and they are +filling orders on up to quitting time in the afternoon, and those +wouldn't go out until the next day, or sometime, if they get ahead of +the checker. They don't put the date on them when they fill them. + +Representative FORD. What I am trying to find out--is there any way +to trace by the orders that were filled by Oswald on the morning of +November 22d as to whether or not in the process of filling orders he +was taken to the sixth floor? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir; we could not tell whether he filled any orders +that might be dated November 22d--might have been filled--if they were +dated November 22d and had Oswald's number on it, we would know that +he filled those on November 22d. But if they were billed and dated on +the 20th and 21st, and there was a number of those filled, we could not +tell how many of those he filled on the 22d. + +Representative FORD. Have you ever gone back through your orders for +the 22d? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir. + +Representative FORD. Just to take a survey? + +Mr. TRULY. We have thousands and thousands of accounts, and they run +from A to Z alphabetically in our files. We would have to take--we +would have to go through every invoice in each file, from A to Z, in +order to find any orders he might have filled on that day. And it would +be hard to prove that he filled them on that date because, unless we +found one that had his number on it and was dated November 22d--because +we know he wasn't there after that--but if it was dated November 21st, +he could easily have filled a good number of those orders that morning +of the 22d. But we could not tell whether he filled them the 21st or +the 22d. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, in line with Congressman Ford's questions, was +there ever a clipboard found in your building at all? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. Sometime later there was a clipboard found that +had two or three orders on it. + +Mr. BELIN. What were those orders dated? + +Mr. TRULY. I don't remember, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where the clipboard was found? + +Mr. TRULY. I later learned it was found up on the sixth floor, near the +stairway, behind some cartons. I do not remember just exactly how many +orders were on it, but I think it was only two or three. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember who found it? + +Mr. TRULY. A boy by the name of Frankie Kaiser. + +Mr. BELIN. Is he still one of your employees? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether this was ever identified as having ever +belonged to any particular employee of yours? + +Mr. TRULY. Well, he brought the clipboard to Bill Shelley and told him +about it, and he said, "This is an old clipboard I used to use. This is +the one that Oswald was using." It was a kind of homemade affair. + +Mr. BELIN. When you say he brought it to Bill Shelley, who are you +referring to? + +Mr. TRULY. I am referring to Frankie Kaiser who brought the clipboard +with the orders downstairs and told Bill Shelley that he had found +Oswald's clipboard with some orders on it. + +Mr. BELIN. Had those orders ever been filled or not? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir. You see, when they fill the orders, they take them +off the clipboard. They may have 25 on the clipboard, and after a while +they will have 15 or 10 or something. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not those orders were ever eventually +filled that were found on the clipboard? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; they were filled. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do with the clipboard and the order blanks that +were on there? + +Mr. TRULY. I think someone else filled the order blanks and the +clipboard lay around there for a while until it was mentioned. I don't +recall what happened to it. At the time nobody considered it of too +much significance, I suppose--that the boy was just filling orders up +there and he had just thrown his clipboard over. I believe that someone +from a government agency either got the clipboard or looked at it. I +have this thing all mixed up. It hasn't been very long ago, you know, +about the clipboard. I don't know the solution of it. They were trying +to identify this clipboard just a short while ago for someone--the FBI +or the Secret Service, or it could be you, could it? + +Mr. BELIN. No, sir. + +Mr. TRULY. Just shortly before you. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you this question? + +Are there any ways in which your orders are posted that show anything +along the lines that Congressman Ford suggested as to who might fill an +order or when an order would be posted? In other words, if you come to +an order and you see that the order is dated maybe November 21st, but +you do not know whether it was filled on November 21st or November 22d, +would your posting system of entries on your ledger or journal in any +way show when it was filled? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir. The date that we go by is the date the checker +checks the order, and then he puts the date stamp on it. He puts it +over on the table in a little conveyor belt, and the boys wrap it. +When he separates the packing list and the invoice itself--he puts the +packing list and the label with the order. Then he dates the invoice as +of that date, and it goes upstairs to be matched with the other copies, +and then charged to the customer. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, you mentioned earlier that periodically your checkers +get a check to ascertain how many orders were filled by the various +employees. Do you know of any such check made on the morning of +November 22d? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I do not recall having made a check in several days +before that. We would usually run a check of errors for a week, and +then we would run a check occasionally of orders filled. And checking +on the errors the various boys made--maybe we have an unusual number +for us of teachers writing in saying that they got the wrong book. So +we try to check and see which one of these boys possibly was making +these errors. + +Mr. BELIN. Is it your testimony that you do not recall any check being +made on November 22d, or you are sure there was no check on November +22d? + +Mr. TRULY. There was no check that I recall. And I am sure there wasn't. + +(At this point, the Chairman left the hearing room.) + +Representative FORD. Could you tell us the approximate date that this +individual found the clipboard and brought it to your attention? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir. + +Representative FORD. Was it a few days after the assassination, or +several weeks? + +Mr. TRULY. I think it was just a few days afterward because--now, +we would have to check upstairs. If these orders are not filled and +processed and gone upstairs and matched with the copies in several days +there, then we go looking for the order like the boys missed them. +We have copies in the office, and if they do not come through in a +reasonable time, we think that someone has lost some orders, and we +get to checking them. If we cannot find them, we have to duplicate the +orders. + +Representative FORD. In other words, if 2 weeks had passed without the +order being filled according to your records, you would have instituted +a more thorough search to find out where the unfilled order blank was. + +Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir--less than that, I would say, because we do +not--our customers would probably write to us before then, if they did +not receive it. But the girls on it--usually 3 or 4 days, if those +orders have not cleared, they come to check about them, to see if we +are holding one back because we do not have the stock, or if we have +lost it, the boys have lost it. + +(At this point, the Chairman entered the hearing room.) + +Representative FORD. Who is the man who brought the clipboard to you? + +Mr. TRULY. Bill Shelley called my attention to it. At that time I do +not recall anything being done except maybe one of the boys filling the +orders and just forgetting about that part of it. + +Representative FORD. To your best recollection, who gave the clipboard +to Bill Shelley? + +Mr. TRULY. Frankie Kaiser. + +Representative FORD. Was he an employee of the Texas School Book +Depository? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. Do you know generally where Kaiser found the +clipboard? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. Can you point it out to us on one of the exhibits? + +Mr. BELIN. The diagram of the sixth floor has been marked as Exhibit +No. 483. Perhaps you can mark on Exhibit No. 483 with the letter "C" +where you think the clipboard was found. + +I might at this point on the record say for the Commission that +Exhibit 506 purports to be the position of the clipboard when it was +discovered--the clipboard is circled, and the number on the picture, +on Exhibit 506, is numbered 36, and on the Exhibit 483 appears at the +end of the arrow with the number 36 on it, which is near where Mr. +Truly put his "C". And the number 35 on that same exhibit--the number +35 will be shown tomorrow to be the position of the rifle when it was +discovered. + +Representative FORD. And 36 is the position of the clipboard? + +Mr. BALL. I don't think you can take that as evidence. + +Mr. BELIN. This is not evidence. This is just background. + +Mr. BALL. This is really an offer of proof on our part. That is the +most you can consider it--because we intend to take the deposition of +Kaiser who found the clipboard. + +Representative FORD. Is there someone here, the staff or Mr. Truly, who +knows approximately when the clipboard was found? + +Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. I can give you that date in about one minute. +According to our records, Frankie Kaiser, when interviewed on December +2d, said that on the morning of December 2d he found a clipboard which +he had made and which he had turned over to Lee Harvey Oswald with +orders. And we have a list of the orders also in one of the Commission +documents. It is Document 7, page 381. + +But we are going to have to actually take the deposition of Mr. Kaiser, +which we will do when we go to Dallas next week or the week after, or +whenever we get to him. + +Representative FORD. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Representative FORD. Back on the record. + +Mr. BELIN. Three more pictures, Mr. Truly. + +I hand you what the reporter has marked as Exhibit 505. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 505 for +identification.) + +I ask you to state if this appears to be the stairway leading from the +second to the third floor, or can't you tell? + +Mr. TRULY. I believe so; yes. + +Mr. BELIN. And that is the stairway that you went up two or three steps +before you came down to get Officer Baker? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, I note with regard to the floor plan on the second +floor that when you want to get to the lunchroom from the elevator, if +you want to get to the lunchroom from the west elevator you have to +walk in the area through that door marked number 23. Is that correct? + +Mr. TRULY. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. If you want to get there from the east elevator, what do you +do? + +Mr. TRULY. Well, there is a side door, a north door, coming into the +lunchroom that they can come through. + +Mr. BELIN. Does that north door appear on Exhibit 501? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. That appears to be located east of the Coca Cola machine, is +that correct? + +Mr. TRULY. That is correct. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, if someone wanted to take an elevator and get off on +the second floor, and go through the back door to get to the lunchroom, +would there be any way for that elevator to leave the second floor +other than for someone to get back on that east elevator and personally +operate it? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. In other words, the east elevator you have to actually have +an operator on it and it cannot be moved by just pushing a button? + +Mr. TRULY. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. One other question. Just what are Rolling Readers? Is +Rolling a company or what is it? + +Mr. TRULY. Well, if you would look at it you wouldn't know what it +was after you opened the box. But it is a new concept in material for +reading for children in the first grade, kindergarten and so forth. +They are little blocks with words on them that roll out, and then you +turn them over. It is something like--I know way back in my childhood +they would use number blocks and things like that. But it has words and +sentences and things they can put together. + +Mr. DULLES. A square like dice? + +Mr. TRULY. That's right. It looks like dice, only they are bigger. They +have the theory that these can interest a lot of children because of +the noise they put out here, and they pick them up when they hit the +floor and put them together into sentences and things. Something to +stimulate the interest of children who are not quite as advanced in +their reading. + +Mr. BELIN. Are they relatively heavy or light cartons? + +Mr. TRULY. They are very light. + +Mr. BELIN. The cartons themselves. About how much would a carton of 10 +Rolling Readers weigh? + +Mr. TRULY. I don't think they would weigh over between five and ten +pounds. + +Mr. BELIN. And by 10 Rolling Readers you mean there were 10 sets of the +Rolling Readers in each of these cartons shown on Exhibit 504? + +Mr. TRULY. That's right. + +Mr. BELIN. At this time we offer in evidence exhibits 490 through 506 +inclusive. + +Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted. + +(The documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 490 through +506, inclusive, for identification, were received in evidence.) + +Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Truly, I think I heard you say when you were describing +the first contact that you had with Oswald that you said, "That is the +last time I saw him until November 16th." + +Did I hear you say that? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I did not. If I did, it was a mistake. I saw him on +October 16th, the morning he came to work. + +Mr. McCLOY. I put down here that was the last time you had seen him +until November 16th. + +Mr. TRULY. For the record, if I said that, that is wrong. I meant +October 16th. + +The CHAIRMAN. Which was the next morning? + +Mr. TRULY. That was the next morning after he was told to come to work. + +Mr. DULLES. Do you recall, Mr. Truly, whether you hired any personnel +for work in this particular building, in the School Depository, after +the 15th of October and before the 22d of November? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't recall hiring anyone else other than Oswald +for that building the same day that I hired Oswald. I believe, if I am +not mistaken, I hired another boy for a temporary job, and put him in +the other warehouse at 1917 North Houston. + +Mr. DULLES. At a different warehouse? + +Mr. TRULY. At a different warehouse. He was laid off November 15th, I +believe--November 15th, or something like that. + +Mr. DULLES. What I was getting at is whether an accomplice could have +gotten in in that way. That is why I was asking the question. + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't recall. Actually, the end of our fall +rush--if it hadn't existed a week or 2 weeks longer, or if we had not +been using some of our regular boys putting down this plywood, we would +not have had any need for Lee Oswald at that time, which is a tragic +thing for me to think about. + +Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Truly, while Oswald was in your employ, did you have +any inquiries made of you by any of the United States agencies, such as +FBI, regarding him? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir; nothing ever. + +Mr. DULLES. Did Oswald mention to you anything about his trip to Russia +and return from Russia? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir; he did not. He just told me that he just recently +was discharged from the Marines with an honorable discharge. And I +suppose that if he had had some background of a few jobs, skipping here +and there, I might have investigated those jobs thoroughly. + +Mr. DULLES. He did not tell you about those short-time jobs he had? + +Mr. TRULY. No. The thing is I thought he was just discharged from the +service, and we have worked with boys in the past, and they have gone +on and got on their feet and got a better job. And I did not give it a +thought that he was really just not discharged from the Marines. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, you mentioned the fact that you thought Jack +Dougherty was the one operating that west elevator. Is that correct? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you tell us a little bit about Jack Dougherty? + +Mr. TRULY. Jack Dougherty has been working for us 12 or 14 years. +Until we moved into this building, he has been mostly in our State +Department, the building at 1917 North Houston. He would fill orders +for--that called for many cartons of books on a three-textbook-order +basis to the various schools in Texas. And he seemed to be intelligent +and smart and a hard worker. The main thing is he just worked all the +time. + +I have never had any occasion to have any hard words for Jack. A few +times he would get a little bit--maybe do a little something wrong, +and I would mention it to him, and he would just go to pieces--not +anything--but anything the rest of the day or the next day would not +be right. [Deletion.] He is a great big husky fellow. I think he is 39 +years old. He has never been married. He has no interest in women. He +gets flustered, has a small word for it, at times. He has never had any +trouble. He is a good, loyal, hard working employee. He always has been. + +Mr. BELIN. Would you consider him of average intelligence? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. I think what is wrong with him mostly is his +emotional makeup. I would say that for the work he is doing, he is of +average intelligence. + +Mr. BELIN. When you got to the fifth floor, as I understand it, the +west elevator was not there, but when you started up from the first +floor, you thought it was on the fifth floor. + +Mr. TRULY. No. When I came down from the second floor--from the seventh +floor with the officer, I thought I saw Jack Dougherty on the fifth +floor, which he would have had plenty of time to move the elevator down +and up and get some stock and come back. + +Mr. BELIN. But when you got to the fifth floor that west elevator was +not there? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Was it on any floor below the fifth floor? + +Mr. TRULY. I didn't look. + +Mr. BELIN. As you were climbing up the floors, you did not see it? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. And if it wasn't on the fifth floor when you got there, it +could have been on the sixth or seventh, I assume. + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't believe so, because I think I would have +heard or seen it coming downstairs when I got on the fifth floor +elevator, on the east side. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, suppose it was just stopped on the sixth floor when +you got on the fifth floor elevator. Would you have seen it then? + +Mr. TRULY. I think so, yes, sir. As we started up from the fifth floor, +you could see the top of it at an angle. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you looking in that direction as you rode up on the +fifth floor, or were you facing the east? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir. I don't know which way I was looking. I was only +intent on getting to the seventh floor. + +Mr. BELIN. So you cannot say when you passed the sixth floor whether or +not an elevator was there? + +Mr. TRULY. I cannot. + +Mr. BELIN. When you got to the seventh floor, you got out of the east +elevator. Was the west elevator on the seventh floor? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Are you sure it was not on the seventh floor? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you hear the west elevator running at any time when you +were riding the elevator from the fifth to the seventh? + +Mr. TRULY. I was not aware of it. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. I have no further questions. + +The CHAIRMAN. Any other questions? + +Representative FORD. How many employees do you have in the building on +the corner of Houston and Elm? + +Mr. TRULY. I cannot tell you the figures, the total number of the +office and all employees. We had about 15, I think. We had 19-warehouse +and order-filler boys in both warehouses, and there are only four or +five down at the other place. I think we had 15 men working in our +warehouse at Houston and Elm on that day. + +Representative FORD. On November 22d. + +Mr. DULLES. Would all of them normally have had access to the sixth +floor, or might have gone to the sixth floor? + +Mr. TRULY. Possibly any--possibly so. We have one man that checks. He +hardly fills any orders. And we have one or two that write up freight. +But any of the order-fillers there might be a possibility--there might +be a possibility they might need something off the sixth floor. + +Representative FORD. When you noticed the police assembling the +employees after the assassination, what prompted you to think that +Oswald was not among them? + +Mr. TRULY. I have asked myself that many times. I cannot give an +answer. Unless it was the fact that I knew he was on the second floor, +I had seen him 10 or 15 minutes, or whatever it was, before that. That +might have brought that boy's name to my mind--because I was looking +over there and he was the only one I missed at that time that I could +think of. Subconsciously it might have been because I saw him on the +second floor and I knew he was in the building. + +Representative FORD. Had there been any traits that you had noticed +from the time of his employment that might have made you think then +that there was a connection between the shooting and Oswald? + +Mr. TRULY. Not at all. In fact, I was fooled so completely by the sound +of--the direction of the shot, that I did not believe--still did not +believe--maybe I could not force myself to believe, that the shots +came from that building until I learned that they found the gun and +the shells there. So I had no feeling whatever that they did come from +there. I am sure that did not bring Oswald in my mind. But it was just +the fact that they were trying to get people's names. + +Mr. DULLES. When you reported that Oswald was missing, do you recall +whether you told the police that he had been on the second floor? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. DULLES. You did not? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I just said, "I have a man that is missing. I don't +know whether it means anything, but this is the name." + +Representative FORD. Do you know about what time that was that you told +the police? + +Mr. TRULY. I could be wrong, but I think it was around 15--between 15 +minutes or 20 minutes after the shots, or something. I could be as far +off as 5 minutes or so. I don't know. I did not seem to think it was +very long. We might have spent more time up on the roof and coming +down, and then I might have walked out in the shipping department. +Everybody was running up asking questions. Time could fool me. But I +did not think it was but about 15 or 20 minutes later. + +Representative FORD. In your description of Oswald to Captain Fritz, +did you describe the kind of clothes that Oswald had on that day? + +Mr. TRULY. I don't know, sir. No, sir; I just told him his name and +where he lived and his telephone number and his age, as 23, and I said +5 feet, 9, about 150 pounds, light brown hair--whatever I picked up off +the description there. I did not try to depend on my memory to describe +him. I just put down what was on this application blank. That's the +reason I called Mr. Aiken, because I did not want to mislead anybody +as to a description. I might call a man brown-haired, and he might be +blonde. + +Mr. DULLES. When you and the officer saw Oswald in the luncheon room, +did any words pass between you? + +Mr. TRULY. No. The officer said something to the boy. + +Mr. DULLES. I mean between you and Oswald. + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir. Oswald never said a word. Not to me. + +Mr. DULLES. What was he doing? + +Mr. TRULY. He was just standing there. + +Mr. DULLES. Did he have a coke? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. No drink? + +Mr. TRULY. No drink at all. Just standing there. + +Mr. DULLES. Anything about his appearance that was startling or unusual? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir. No, sir; I didn't see him panting like he had been +running or anything. + +Mr. DULLES. Didn't appear to be doing anything special, moving in any +direction? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir. He was standing still facing the doorway to the +lunchroom. The officer was there with a gun pointed at him, around +towards his middle, almost touching. + +Mr. DULLES. How long before the President's actual visit on the 22d of +November did you know of the visit and of the route that he was going +to take. + +Mr. TRULY. Well, I think they said it was announced 72 hours before the +assassination that he would take that route. + +Mr. DULLES. Was there any discussion, as far as you know, among your +employees, of the fact that the procession would go near the School +Depository? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir; not that I know of. + +Mr. McCLOY. Did you ever have any reason to suspect any other +member--any other of your boys of being in any way connected with this +affair? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I never have found anything or any actions to make +me feel that they might be connected with it. + +Mr. McCLOY. You never observed Oswald conversing with any strange or +unidentified characters during his employment with you? + +Mr. TRULY. Never. + +Mr. DULLES. Did Oswald have any visitors as far as you know? + +Mr. TRULY. Never knew of a one; no, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. Did he have the use of a telephone when he was in the +building? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. We have a telephone on the first floor that he was +free to use during his lunch hour for a minute. He was supposed to ask +permission to use the phone. But he could have used the phone. + +Mr. DULLES. Pay telephone or office telephone? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir; it is a regular office telephone. It is a +pushbutton type. + +Mr. McCLOY. Did he strike you as being a frequent user of that +telephone? + +Mr. TRULY. I never remember ever seeing him on the telephone. + +Mr. DULLES. Would you have any record or be able to find out now +whether he had ever used it? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. You did not see him on November 22d with any package or any +bundle? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, when we were there on March 20th, did you take +a walk down from the southeast corner window on the sixth floor with +Officer Baker and a Secret Service Agent Howlett--we walked along from +that window at the southeast corner of the sixth floor, walked along +the east wall to the northeast corner of the building, and then across +there around the elevators, and Secret Service Agent Howlett simulated +putting a rifle at the spot where the rifle was found; and then we +took the stairs down to the second floor lunchroom where Officer Baker +encountered Lee Harvey Oswald? You remember us doing that? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. How fast were we going--running, trotting, walking or what? + +Mr. TRULY. Walking at a brisk walk, and then a little bit faster, I +would say. + +Mr. BELIN. You remember what time that was? How long did it take? + +Mr. TRULY. It seemed to me like it was a minute and 18 seconds, and a +minute and 15 seconds. We tried it twice. I believe that is about as +near as I remember. + +Mr. BELIN. If a person were in that southeast corner window, just +knowing the way the books were laid up there, would that have been the +most practicable route to use to get out of there, to get down the +stairs? + +Mr. TRULY. I believe so. I believe it to be. + +Mr. McCLOY. In your judgment, you think that is the route that Oswald +took? + +Mr. TRULY. I think--he had two possible routes there. One of them, he +could come half way down the east wall and down this way, but he would +have to make one more turn. But if he came all the way down the east +wall to where the rows of books stop, he had a straight run toward the +sixth floor stairs. + +Mr. DULLES. You do not think he used any of the elevators at any time +to get from the sixth to the second floor? + +Mr. TRULY. You mean after the shooting? No, sir; he just could not, +because those elevators, I saw myself, were both on the fifth floor, +they were both even. And I tried to get one of them, and then when we +ran up to the second floor--it would have been impossible for him to +have come down either one of those elevators after the assassination. +He had to use the stairway as his only way of getting down--since we +did see the elevators in those positions. + +Mr. DULLES. He could not have taken it down and then have somebody else +go up to that floor and leave it? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't believe he would have had time for that. + +Representative FORD. He couldn't have taken an elevator down and then +sent it up to a higher floor? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir. Yes; he could. I suppose he could put his hand +through the slotted bars and touched one of the upper floors. + +Mr. BELIN. On both elevators? + +Mr. TRULY. That is just the west one only. + +Representative FORD. That was feasible, even though it might be a +little difficult? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. There was no button on the outside that permitted +him to send an elevator up to a higher floor? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir. It would take him quite a little job to get his +hand all through there and press one. + +Mr. DULLES. Would he have to break any glass to do it? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir. The car gate--and then there was an outside gate +slatted--slats about this far apart. + +Mr. McCLOY. When you entered the building with the officer behind you, +when you were presumably trying to get to the roof, there had been no +cordon at that time thrown around the building? + +Mr. TRULY. No, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. So that Oswald could have slipped out without an officer +having been at the doorway at that point? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; I think so. There were many officers running down +west of the building. It appears many people thought the shots came +from there because of the echo or what. + +Mr. DULLES. Is it your view he went out the front door rather than one +of the back doors? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; it is. From the nature--from the direction he was +walking through the office, and the front stairway, to reach the second +floor--it is my view that he walked down the front stairs and just out +through the crowd there, probably a minute or two before the police had +everything stopped. + +Mr. McCLOY. From what you know of these young men who testified before +you today, are they trustworthy? + +Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; I think they are. They are good men. They have +been with me, most of them, for some time. I have no reason to doubt +their word. I do know that they have been rather, as the expression +goes, shook up about this thing, especially this tall one, Bonnie +Williams. He is pretty superstitious, I would say. For 2 or 3 weeks the +work was not normal, or a month. The boys did not put out their normal +amount of work. Their hearts were not in it. But after that, they have +picked up very well. They are doing their work well. + +Mr. BELIN. If we can go off the record for just a moment. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +The CHAIRMAN. Back on the record. + +Mr. TRULY. I thank you very much. + +The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, sir. You have helped us a good deal. + +We will recess at this time until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. + +(Whereupon, at 6 p.m. the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +_Wednesday, March 25, 1964_ + +TESTIMONY OF MARRION L. BAKER, MRS. ROBERT A. REID, LUKE MOONEY, EUGENE +BOONE, AND M. N. McDONALD + +The President's Commission met at 9:50 a.m. on March 25, 1964, at 200 +Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. + +Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman +Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and +Allen W. Dulles, members. + +Also present were Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel; David W. Belin, +assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Charles Murray, +observer; and Waggoner Carr, attorney general of Texas. + + +TESTIMONY OF MARRION L. BAKER + +The CHAIRMAN. Would you raise your right hand and be sworn please? + +Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission +will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help +you God? + +Mr. BAKER. I do, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated. I will read a little short brief +statement to you, Mr. Baker, which will indicate the purpose of our +meeting today. + +The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of M. L. Baker, +Mrs. R. A. Reid, Eugene Boone, Luke Mooney, and M. N. McDonald. Officer +Baker and Mrs. Reid were in the vicinity of the Texas School Book +Depository Building at the time of the assassination. + +Deputy Sheriffs Boone and Mooney assisted in the search of the sixth +floor of the Texas School Depository Building shortly after the +assassination and Officer McDonald apprehended Lee Harvey Oswald at the +Texas theater. + +I read this to you just so you will know the general nature of the +inquiry we are making today and we will make of you. + +Mr. Belin will conduct the examination. + +Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, would you state your legal name, please for +the Commission? + +Mr. BAKER. Marrion L. Baker. + +Mr. BELIN. You are known as M. L. Baker? + +Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation? + +Mr. BAKER. With Dallas Police Department. + +Mr. BELIN. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department? + +Mr. BAKER. Almost 10 years. + +Mr. BELIN. How old are you, Officer Baker? + +Mr. BAKER. Thirty-three. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were you born? + +Mr. BAKER. In a little town called Blum, Tex. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school in Blum, Tex.? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I think I went to about the sixth grade. + +Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go? + +Mr. BAKER. We moved to Dallas and I continued schooling at the Roger Q. +Mills School, elementary, went to junior high school, I believe it was +called Storey, and then I finished high school in Adamson High School. + +Mr. BELIN. In Dallas? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you graduated from high school? + +Mr. BAKER. I think I got married. + +The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, at this time I must go to the court, we have +a session of the court today hearing arguments and Mr. Dulles, you +are going to be here through the morning, so if you will conduct the +meeting from this time on. + +Excuse me, gentlemen. + +(At this point, the Chief Justice left the hearing room.) + +Mr. BELIN. After you got married, sir, what did you do. I mean in the +way of vocation? + +Mr. BAKER. I took up a job as a sheetmetal man at the Continental Tin +Co. + +Mr. BELIN. How long did you work for Continental? + +Mr. BAKER. Approximately 3 months. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. BAKER. At that time I quit this job and went to the Ford Motor Co. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do at Ford? + +Mr. BAKER. Well, at that time I stayed there approximately 11 months +and they laid me off and I went to the, I believe they call it Chance +Vought at that time, aircraft. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do at Ford, sir? + +Mr. BAKER. I was a glass installer, I believe that is what you would +call it. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +When you went to this aircraft factory what did you do? + +Mr. BAKER. I was a material clerk. + +Mr. BELIN. How long did you work for them? + +Mr. BAKER. I didn't understand? + +Mr. BELIN. How long did you work for the aircraft company? + +Mr. BAKER. It seemed like somewhere around a year and a half. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, then what did you do? + +Mr. BAKER. At that time it was uncertain out there whether you would +stay there or not, they were laying off a few of the men and I went +with the neighbor's trailer company which was located in Oak Cliff +there. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do there? + +Mr. BAKER. I was, I guess you would call it a mechanic. I did a little +bit of everything there, I did all the road work, and did all the +delivering at that time. + +Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay with them? + +Mr. BAKER. A little over 3 years. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. BAKER. Then I became, I went with the city of Dallas. + +Mr. BELIN. With the police department? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you take a course of instruction for the police +department? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I went to the Dallas Police Academy School out +there. + +Mr. BELIN. How long was this schooling period, approximately? + +Mr. BAKER. Four months. + +Mr. BELIN. After you were graduated from the Dallas Police Academy, +did you right away become a motorcycle policeman or were you first a +patrolman or what did you do? + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir; at first I was a patrolman and I spent some 23 +months in radio patrol division. And then I volunteered solo division. + +Mr. BELIN. When you were in this radio car, was this a patrol car where +two men would be---- + +Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. And have you been a motorcycle policeman then, say, for the +last 7 or 8 years? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that is pretty close to it. + +(At this point, Representative Ford left the hearing room.) + +Mr. BELIN. By the way, you use the word solo; generally do people in +police cars ride in pairs during the daytime or solos or what? + +Mr. BAKER. If you are talking about the squad cars at the time that I +worked in the radio patrol division, most of them were two-men squads. + +Mr. BELIN. Were there some one-man squads, too? + +Mr. BAKER. Very few. + +Mr. BELIN. What about today, do you know what the situation is? + +Mr. BAKER. They still have, say, very few two-men squads and a lot of +one-man squads now. + +Mr. BELIN. They have a lot of one-man squads now? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Is that because of a shortage of men for the jobs to cover? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Not because of the procedures? + +Mr. BAKER. Now, at night they try to ride them two men. + +Mr. BELIN. In the daytime what is the situation now? + +Mr. BAKER. Usually the downtown squads which I work are two men, and +the outlying squads are one man. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Coming down to November 22, 1963, what was your occupation on that day? + +Mr. BAKER. I was assigned to ride a motorcycle. + +Mr. BELIN. And where were you assigned to ride the motorcycle? + +Mr. BAKER. At this particular day in the office up there before we went +out, I was, my partner and I, we received instructions to ride right +beside the President's car. + +Mr. BELIN. About when was this that you received these instructions? + +Mr. BAKER. Let's see, I believe we went to work early that day, +somewhere around 8 o'clock. + +Mr. BELIN. And from whom did you receive your original instructions to +ride by the side of the President's car? + +Mr. BAKER. Our sergeant is the one who gave us the instructions. This +is all made up in the captain's office, I believe. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. DULLES. Captain Curry? + +Mr. BAKER. Chief Curry; our captain is Captain Lawrence. + +Mr. BELIN. Were these instructions ever changed? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. When we got to the airport, our sergeant +instructed me that there wouldn't be anybody riding beside the +President's car. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you why or why not? + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir. We had several occasions where we were assigned +there and we were moved by request. + +Mr. BELIN. On that day, you mean? + +Mr. BAKER. Well, that day and several other occasions when I have +escorted them. + +Mr. BELIN. On that day when did you ride or where were you supposed to +ride after this assignment was changed? + +Mr. BAKER. They just--the sergeant told us just to fall in beyond it, I +believe he called it the press, behind the car. + +Mr. BELIN. Beyond the press? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you this after the President's plane arrived at +the airport or was it before? + +Mr. BAKER. It seemed like it was after he arrived out there. + +Mr. BELIN. Had you already seen him get out of the plane? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. About what time was it before the motorcade left that you +were advised of this, was it just before or 5 or 10 minutes before, or +what? + +Mr. BAKER. It was 5 or 10 minutes before. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Then the motorcade left and you rode along on a motorcycle in the +motorcade? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Was it a two-wheeler or a three-wheeler? + +Mr. BAKER. It was a two-wheeler. + +Mr. BELIN. You rode with the motorcade as it traveled through downtown +Dallas? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. And eventually what is the fact as to whether or not the +motorcade got to Main Street? + +Mr. BAKER. You say how fast? + +Mr. BELIN. No; did the motorcade get to Main Street in Dallas, was it +going down Main Street at anytime? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; it did. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +I wonder if you would pick up your actions with the motorcade as it +went down Main Street commencing at, say, Main and Record Streets. + +Mr. BAKER. Well, it was the usual escort. We were traveling about +somewhere around 5 to 10 miles an hour. + +Mr. DULLES. There is a map right behind you. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. BELIN. Back on the record again. + +Mr. DULLES. Would you state exactly where you were riding? We know a +good deal about this, the cars the way they were paced. There was a +car right behind the President's car that followed it, I think 6 or 7 +feet right behind the President's car. + +Mr. BAKER. That was the Secret Service car. + +Mr. DULLES. That is right. Were you in that gap between the two cars or +what? + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I was, it seemed to me like, there was this car. + +Mr. DULLES. When you say "this car" what do you mean? + +Mr. BAKER. That Secret Service car. + +Mr. DULLES. The Secret Service car right behind the President? + +Mr. BAKER. And there was one more car in there. + +Mr. DULLES. Behind that? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. That was the Vice President's car, wasn't it? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. And then? + +Mr. BAKER. There were four press cars carrying the press and I was +right at the side of that last one. + +Representative BOGGS. The last press car? + +Mr. DULLES. The last press car? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. So you were roughly how far behind the President's car at +this stage? + +Mr. BAKER. Sometimes we got, at this stage we were possibly a half +block. + +Mr. DULLES. A half block? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; as I say as I turned the corner the front of it +was turning the corner at Elm Street. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean as you were turning right from Main on to Houston +Street heading north onto Houston, the President's car had already +turned to the left off Houston heading down that entrance to the +expressway, is that correct? + +Mr. BAKER. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +I believe--pardon me, Mr. Dulles, does that answer your question? + +Mr. DULLES. That answers my question. I wanted to see where he was. + +Mr. BELIN. You said you were going down Main Street at around Record at +from 5 to 10 miles an hour? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Will you take up your trip from there, please? + +Mr. BAKER. As we approached the corner there of Main and Houston we +were making a right turn, and as I came out behind that building there, +which is the county courthouse, the sheriff building, well, there was a +strong wind hit me and I almost lost my balance. + +Mr. BELIN. How fast would you estimate the speed of your motorcycle as +you turned the corner, if you know? + +Mr. BAKER. I would say--it wasn't very fast. I almost lost balance, we +were just creeping along real slowly. + +Mr. DULLES. That is turning from Main into Houston? + +Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. You turned--do you have any actual speed estimate as you +turned that corner at all or just you would say very slow? + +Mr. BAKER. I would say from around 5 to 6 or 7 miles an hour, because +you can't hardly travel under that and you know keep your balance. + +Mr. BELIN. From what direction was the wind coming when it hit you? + +Mr. BAKER. Due north. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Now, tell us what happened after you turned on to Houston Street? + +Mr. BAKER. As I got myself straightened up there, I guess it took me +some 20, 30 feet, something like that, and it was about that time that +I heard these shots come out. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Could you just tell us what you heard and what you saw and what you +did? + +Mr. BAKER. As I got, like I say as I got straightened up there, I was, +I don't know when these shots started coming off, I just--it seemed +to me like they were high, and I just happened to look right straight +up---- + +Mr. DULLES. I wonder if you would just tell us on that chart and I will +try to follow with the record where you were at this time, you were +coming down Houston. + +Mr. BELIN. Sir, if you can--I plan to get that actual chart in a +minute. If we could---- + +Mr. DULLES. I want to see where he was vis-a-vis the building on the +chart there. + +Mr. BAKER. This is Main Street and this is Houston. This is the corner +that I am speaking of; I made the right turn here. The motorcade and +all, as I was here turning the front car was turning up here, and as I +got somewhere about right here---- + +Mr. DULLES. That is halfway down the first block. + +Mr. BELIN. No, sir; can I interrupt you for a minute? + +Mr. DULLES. Certainly. + +Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, when we were in Dallas on March 20, Friday, +you walked over with me and showed me about the point you thought your +motorcycle was when you heard the first shot, do you remember doing +that? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. And then we paced this off measuring it from a distance +which could be described as the north curbline of Main Street as +extended? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that would be this one right across here. + +Mr. BELIN. And we paced it off as to where you thought your motorcycle +was when you heard the first shot and do you remember offhand about +where you said this was as to what distance it was, north of the north +curbline of Main Street? + +Mr. BAKER. We approximated it was 60 to 80 feet there, north of the +north curbline of Main on Houston. + +Mr. DULLES. Thank you. + +Mr. BELIN. Does that answer your question? + +Mr. DULLES. That answers my question entirely. + +Mr. BELIN. In any event you heard the first shot, or when you heard +this noise did you believe it was a shot or did you believe it was +something else? + +Mr. BAKER. It hit me all at once that it was a rifle shot because I had +just got back from deer hunting and I had heard them pop over there for +about a week. + +Mr. BELIN. What kind of a weapon did it sound like it was coming from? + +Mr. BAKER. It sounded to me like it was a high-powered rifle. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. When you heard the first shot or the first noise, +what did you do and what did you see? + +Mr. BAKER. Well, to me, it sounded high and I immediately kind of +looked up, and I had a feeling that it came from the building, either +right in front of me or of the one across to the right of it. + +Mr. BELIN. What would the building right in front of you be? + +Mr. BAKER. It would be this Book Depository Building. + +Mr. BELIN. That would be the building located on what corner of Houston +and Elm? + +Mr. BAKER. That would be the northwest corner. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. And you thought it was either from that building +or the building located where? + +Mr. BAKER. On the northeast corner. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Did you see or hear or do anything else after you +heard the first noise? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. As I was looking up, all these pigeons began to +fly up to the top of the buildings here and I saw those come up and +start flying around. + +Mr. BELIN. From what building, if you know, do you think those pigeons +came from? + +Mr. BAKER. I wasn't sure, but I am pretty sure they came from the +building right on the northwest corner. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see or do? + +Mr. BAKER. Well, I immediately revved that motorcycle up and was going +up there to see if I could help anybody or see what was going on +because I couldn't see around this bend. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, between the time you revved up the motorcycle had you +heard any more shots? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I heard--now before I revved up this motorcycle, I +heard the, you know, the two extra shots, the three shots. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you have any time estimate as to the spacing of any of +these shots? + +Mr. BAKER. It seemed to me like they just went bang, bang, bang; they +were pretty well even to me. + +Mr. BELIN. They were pretty well even. + +Anything else between the time of the first shot and the time of the +last shot that you did up to the time or saw---- + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir; except I was looking up and I could tell it was +high and I was looking up there and I saw those pigeons flying around +there. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you notice anything in either of those two buildings +either on the northeast or northwest corner of Houston and Elm? + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you looking at any of those windows? + +Mr. BAKER. I kind of glanced over them, but I couldn't see anything. + +Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear? + +Mr. BAKER. Three. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. After the third shot, then, what did you do? + +Mr. BAKER. Well, I revved that motorcycle up and I went down to the +corner which would be approximately 180 to 200 feet from the point +where we had first stated, you know, that we heard the shots. + +Mr. BELIN. What distance did you state? What we did on Friday +afternoon, we paced off from the point you thought you heard the first +shot to the point at which you parked the motorcycle, and this paced +off to how much? + +Mr. BAKER. From 180 to 200 feet. + +Mr. BELIN. That is where you parked the motorcycle? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +I wonder if we could go on this plat, Officer Baker, and first if you +could put on here with this pen, and I have turned it upside down. + +With Exhibit 361, show us the spot at which you stopped your motorcycle +approximately and put a "B" on it, if you would. + +Mr. BAKER. Somewhere at this position here, which is approximately 10 +feet from this signal light here on the northwest corner of Elm and +Houston. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +You have put a dot on Exhibit 361 with the line going to "B" and the +dot represents that signal light, is that correct? + +Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. You, on Friday, March 20, parked your motorcycle where you +thought it was parked on November 22 and then we paced off the distance +from the nearest point of the motorcycle to the stop light and it was +10 feet, is that correct? + +Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Now, I show you Exhibit 478 and ask you if you will, on this exhibit +put an arrow with the letter "B" to this stoplight. + +Mr. BAKER. Talking about this one here? + +Mr. BELIN. The stoplight from which we measured the distance to the +motorcycle. The arrow with the letter "B" points to the stoplight, is +that correct? + +Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. And you stopped your motorcycle 10 feet to the east of that +stoplight, is that correct? + +Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. We then paced off the distance as to approximately how far +it was from the place your motorcycle was parked to the doorway of the +School Book Depository Building, do you remember doing that, on March +20? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. And it appears on Exhibit 477 that that doorway is recessed, +is that correct? + +Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how far that was from the place your +motorcycle was parked to the doorway? + +Mr. BAKER. Approximately 45 feet. + +Mr. BELIN. This same stoplight appears as you look at Exhibit 477 to +the left of the entranceway to the building, is that correct? + +Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. After you parked your motorcycle, did you notice anything +that was going on in the area? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. As I parked here---- + +Mr. BELIN. You are pointing on Exhibit 361 to the place that you have +marked with "B." + +Mr. BAKER. And I was looking westward which would be in this direction. + +Mr. BELIN. By that, you are pointing down the entrance to the freeway +and kind of what I will call the peninsula of the park there? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Toward the triple underpass. + +Representative BOGGS. Where is the underpass? + +Mr. BAKER. The underpass is down here. This is really Elm Street, and +this would be Main and Commerce and they all come together here, and +there is a triple overpass. + +Representative BOGGS. Right. + +Mr. BAKER. At this point, I looked down here as I was parking my +motorcycle and these people on this ground here, on the sidewalk, there +were several of them falling, and they were rolling around down there, +and all these people were rushing back, a lot of them were grabbing +their children, and I noticed one, I didn't know who he was, but there +was a man ran out into the crowd and back. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you notice anything else? + +Mr. BAKER. Except there was a woman standing--well, all these people +were running, and there was a woman screaming, "Oh, they have shot that +man, they have shot that man." + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Now, you are on Exhibit 361, and you are pointing to people along the +area or bordering the entrance to that expressway and that bit of land +lying to the west and north, as to where you describe these people, is +that correct? + +Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Would you mark where the overpass would be, right at the +end of those lines, just so we get oriented on it. + +Mr. BELIN. I am trying to see down here. + +Mr. DULLES. I just wanted to get a general idea. + +Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 361, sir, it wouldn't show but it basically would +be off in this direction coming down this way. The entrance to the +freeway would go down here and the overpass would roughly be down here. + +Mr. DULLES. As far as that? + +Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir; I think Mr. Redlich is going to get a picture that +will better describe it. + +Mr. DULLES. All right. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Is there anything else you saw there, Officer Baker, before you ran to +the building? + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir; not at that time. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Then what did you do after surveying the situation? + +Mr. BAKER. I had it in mind that the shots came from the top of this +building here. + +Mr. BELIN. By this building, you are referring to what? + +Mr. BAKER. The Book Depository Building. + +Mr. BELIN. Go on. + +Representative BOGGS. You were parked right in front of the Building? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; ran right straight to it. + +Representative BOGGS. Right. + +Let me ask you a question. How far away, approximately, were these +people who were running and falling and so forth from the entrance to +the Building? + +Mr. BAKER. Well, now, let me say this. From this position here. + +Mr. BELIN. That is position "B" on Exhibit 361? + +Mr. BAKER. There were people running all over this here. + +Mr. BELIN. And you are pointing to the street and the parkway all in +front of the School Building? + +Mr. BAKER. You see, it looked to me like there were maybe 500 or 600 +people in this area here. + +Representative BOGGS. Yes. + +Mr. BAKER. As those shots rang out, why they started running, you know, +every direction, just trying to get back out of the way. + +Mr. DULLES. For the record, by this area right here, you have that +little peninsula between the Elm Street extension and the Building? + +Mr. BAKER. That is right. This little street runs down in front of the +building down here to the property of the railroad tracks and this is +all a parkway. + +Mr. DULLES. Yes. I just wanted to get it for the record. + +Mr. BELIN. You then ran into the Building, is that correct? + +Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you see and what did you do as you ran into the +Building? + +Mr. BAKER. As I entered this building, there was, it seems to me like +there was outside doors and then there is a little lobby. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. BAKER. And then there are some inner doors and another door you +have to go through, a swinging door type. + +As I entered this lobby there were people going in as I entered. And I +asked, I just spoke out and asked where the stairs or elevator was, and +this man, Mr. Truly, spoke up and says, it seems to me like he says, "I +am a building manager. Follow me, officer, and I will show you." So we +immediately went out through the second set of doors, and we ran into +the swinging door. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Now, during the course of running into the swinging door, did you bump +into the back of Mr. Truly? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what happened? + +Mr. BAKER. We finally backed up and got through that little swinging +door there and we kind of all ran, not real fast but, you know, a good +trot, to the back of the Building, I was following him. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Then what did you do? + +Mr. BAKER. We went to the northwest corner, we was kind of on the, I +would say, the southeast corner of the Building there where we entered +it, and we went across it to the northwest corner which is in the rear, +back there. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. BAKER. And he was trying to get that service elevator down there. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. What did you see Mr. Truly do? + +Mr. BAKER. He ran over there and pushed the button to get it down. + +Mr. BELIN. Did the elevator come down after he pushed the button? + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir; it didn't. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did he do? + +Mr. BAKER. He hollered for it, said, "Bring that elevator down here." + +Mr. BELIN. How many times did he holler, to the best of your +recollection? + +Mr. BAKER. It seemed like he did it twice. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Then what did he do? + +Mr. BAKER. I said let's take the stairs. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Then what did you do? + +Mr. BAKER. He said, "Okay" and so he immediately turned around, which +the stairs is just to the, would be to the, well, the west of this +elevator. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. BAKER. And we went up them. + +Mr. BELIN. You went up the stairs then? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. When you started up the stairs what was your intention at +that time? + +Mr. BAKER. My intention was to go all the way to the top where I +thought the shots had come from, to see if I could find something +there, you know, to indicate that. + +Mr. BELIN. And did you go all the way up to the top of the stairs right +away? + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir; we didn't. + +Mr. BELIN. What happened? + +Mr. BAKER. As I came out to the second floor there, Mr. Truly was ahead +of me, and as I come out I was kind of scanning, you know, the rooms, +and I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this--I happened +to see him through this window in this door. I don't know how come I +saw him, but I had a glimpse of him coming down there. + +Mr. DULLES. Where was he coming from, do you know? + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir. All I seen of him was a glimpse of him go away from +me. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? + +Mr. BAKER. I ran on over there---- + +Representative BOGGS. You mean where he was? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. There is a door there with a glass, it seemed to +me like about a 2 by 2, something like that, and then there is another +door which is 6 foot on over there, and there is a hallway over there +and a hallway entering into a lunchroom, and when I got to where I +could see him he was walking away from me about 20 feet away from me in +the lunchroom. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do? + +Mr. BAKER. I hollered at him at that time and said, "Come here." He +turned and walked right straight back to me. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were you at the time you hollered? + +Mr. BAKER. I was standing in the hallway between this door and the +second door, right at the edge of the second door. + +Mr. BELIN. He walked back toward you then? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 497 +which appears to be a diagram of the second floor of the School Book +Depository, and you will notice on this diagram there are circles with +arrows. I want you to state, if you will, what number or the arrow +approximates the point at which you were standing when you told him to +"Come here". Is there a number on there at all or not? + +Mr. BAKER. This 24 would be the position where I was standing. + +Mr. BELIN. The arrow which is represented by No. 24, is that correct? + +Mr. BAKER. That is correct. + +Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 497. When you first saw him in which direction +was he walking? + +Mr. BAKER. He was walking east. + +Mr. BELIN. Was--his back was away from you, or not, as you first saw +him? + +Mr. BAKER. As I first caught that glimpse of him, or as I saw him, +really saw him? + +Mr. BELIN. As you really saw him. + +Mr. BAKER. He was walking away from me with his back toward me. + +Mr. DULLES. Can I suggest if you will do this, put on there where the +officer was and where Lee Oswald was, or the man who turned out to be +Lee Oswald, and which direction he was walking in. I think that is +quite important. + +Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. We are going to get to that with one more +question, if I can, sir. When you saw him, he then turned around, is +that correct, and then walked back toward you? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Was he carrying anything in his hands? + +Mr. BAKER. He had nothing at that time. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Were you carrying anything in either of your +hands? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I was. + +Mr. BELIN. What were you carrying? + +Mr. BAKER. I had my revolver out. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you take your revolver out? + +Mr. BAKER. As I was starting up the stairway. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, turning to Exhibit 497, if you would +approximate on Exhibit 497 with a pen the point at which you saw this +man in the lunch room when you told him to turn around. + +Mr. DULLES. Could we get first where he first saw him. + +Representative BOGGS. You have that already. + +Mr. DULLES. I don't think you have it on the chart where he was. + +Mr. BELIN. This is when he first saw him after he got in the room, sir. +If I can go off the record. + +Mr. DULLES. What I wanted to get is where he first saw him as he was +standing down here, as he was going up the stairs and stopped and then +in what direction he was--he seemed to be moving at that time before he +saw. + +Mr. BELIN. Just answer the question, if you will. Where were you when +you first caught a glimpse of this man? + +Mr. BAKER. I was just coming up these stairs just around this corner +right here. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. You were coming up the stairs at the point on +Exhibit 497 where there are the letters "DN" marking down. + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. And you saw something move through a door which is marked as +what number on Exhibit 497? + +Mr. DULLES. Where was he when you first saw him? + +Mr. BAKER. At this doorway right here, this 23. + +Mr. BELIN. At 23. + +Representative BOGGS. May I ask a couple of questions because I have to +go? + +Mr. BELIN. Surely. + +Representative BOGGS. Were you suspicious of this man? + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I wasn't. + +Representative BOGGS. And he came up to you, did he say anything to you? + +Mr. BAKER. Let me start over. I assumed that I was suspicious of +everybody because I had my pistol out. + +Representative BOGGS. Right. + +Mr. BAKER. And as soon as I saw him, I caught a glimpse of him and I +ran over there and opened that door and hollered at him. + +Representative BOGGS. Right. + +Mr. DULLES. He had not seen you up to that point probably? + +Mr. BAKER. I don't know whether he had or not. + +Representative BOGGS. He came up to you? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; and when I hollered at him he turned around and +walked back to me. + +Representative BOGGS. Right close to you? + +Mr. BAKER. And we were right here at this position 24, right here in +this doorway. + +Representative BOGGS. Right. What did you say to him? + +Mr. BAKER. I didn't get anything out of him. Mr. Truly had come up to +my side here, and I turned to Mr. Truly and I says, "Do you know this +man, does he work here?" And he said yes, and I turned immediately and +went on out up the stairs. + +Mr. BELIN. Then you continued up the stairway? + +Representative BOGGS. Let me ask one other question. You later, when +you recognized this man as Lee Oswald, is that right, saw pictures of +him? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. I had occasion to see him in the homicide office +later that evening after we got through with Parkland Hospital and then +Love Field and we went back to the City Hall and I went up there and +made this affidavit. + +Representative BOGGS. After he had been arrested? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Could you tell us anything more about his appearance, what +he was doing, get an impression of the man at all? Did he seem to be +hurrying, anything of that kind? + +Mr. BAKER. Evidently he was hurrying because at this point here, I was +running, and I ran on over here to this door. + +Mr. BELIN. What door number on that? + +Mr. BAKER. This would be 23. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. BAKER. And at that position there he was already down here some 20 +feet away from me. + +Representative BOGGS. When you saw him, was he out of breath, did he +appear to have been running or what? + +Mr. BAKER. It didn't appear that to me. He appeared normal you know. + +Representative BOGGS. Was he calm and collected? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. He never did say a word or nothing. In fact, he +didn't change his expression one bit. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he flinch in anyway when you put the gun up in his face? + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. There is no testimony that he put the gun up in his face. + +Mr. BAKER. I had my gun talking to him like this. + +Mr. DULLES. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. How close was your gun to him if it wasn't the face whatever +part of the body it was? + +Mr. BAKER. About as far from me to you. + +Mr. BELIN. That would be about how far? + +Mr. BAKER. Approximately 3 feet. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you notice, did he say anything or was there any +expression after Mr. Truly said he worked here? + +Mr. BAKER. At that time I never did look back toward him. After he +says, "Yes, he works here," I turned immediately and run on up, I +halfway turned then when I was talking to Mr. Truly. + +Representative BOGGS. That question about time I would like to +establish. + +How long would you say it was from the time that you first heard the +shots until that episode occurred? + +Mr. BAKER. We went back and made two trial runs on that, and---- + +Mr. BELIN. Was that on Friday, March 20? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. BAKER. And the first run we made it was a minute and 30 seconds, +and---- + +Mr. DULLES. Will you say from what time to what time, from the last +shot? + +Mr. BAKER. From the last shot. + +Mr. BELIN. The first shot. + +Mr. DULLES. The first shot? + +Mr. BAKER. The first shot. + +We simulated the shots and by the time we got there, we did everything +that I did that day, and this would be the minimum, because I am sure +that I, you know, it took me a little longer. + +Mr. DULLES. I want to get clear in my mind and for the record, it +started at the first shot and when did it terminate, when you saw +Oswald? + +Mr. BAKER. When we saw Oswald. + +Mr. DULLES. When you saw Oswald? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. And that time is how much? + +Mr. BAKER. The first run would be a minute and 30 seconds, and then we +did it over, and we did it in a minute and 15 seconds. + +(At this point, Representative Boggs left the hearing room.) + +Mr. BELIN. Were we walking or running when we did this? + +Mr. BAKER. The first time we did it a little bit slower, and the second +time we hurried it up a little bit. + +Mr. BELIN. Were we running or walking, when we moved, did we run or +walk? + +Mr. BAKER. From the time I got off the motorcycle we walked the first +time and then we kind of run the second time from the motorcycle on +into the building. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. When we got inside the building did we run or +trot or walk? + +Mr. BAKER. Well, we did it at kind of a trot, I would say, it wasn't a +real fast run, an open run. It was more of a trot, kind of. + +Mr. BELIN. You mentioned the relationship between what we did on March +20 and what actually occurred on November 22. Would you estimate that +what we did on March 20 was the maximum or the minimum as for the time +you took? + +Mr. BAKER. I would say it would be the minimum. + +Mr. BELIN. For instance, on March 20 did we do anything about trying to +get through any people on the front steps of the building at all? Did +we slow down at all for that? + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did we slow down at all on March 20 for the time it took you +to look over the scene as to what was happening in the area down Elm +Street and the Parkway? + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Later did we go to the southeast corner of the sixth floor? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; we did. + +Mr. BELIN. With the stopwatch? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did we make any or do any stopwatch tests about any route +from the southeast corner of the sixth floor down to the lunchroom? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; we made two test runs. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Do you remember what the route was? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; we started on the sixth floor on the east side of +the building. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. BAKER. We walked down the east wall. + +Mr. BELIN. We started at that particular corner? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; we started in the southeast corner. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. We walked down the east wall, you say? + +Mr. BAKER. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, then where did we go? + +Mr. BAKER. To the north wall and then we walked down the north wall to +the west side of where the stairs was. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, we walked from the southeast corner to the +northeast corner? + +Mr. BAKER. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. Then along the northeast corner, around the elevators, do +you remember who was with us when we did this? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. There was, it seems to me like his name was +John--anyway, he was a Secret Service man. + +Mr. BELIN. John Howlett. + +Mr. BAKER. John Howlett. That is right, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did Mr. Howlett simulate anyone putting a gun in any +particular place? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; he did. + +Mr. BELIN. And then what did we do when we got to the--where did he do +that, do you remember? + +Mr. BAKER. That would be as we approached the stairway, there were some +cases of books on the left-hand side there. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. And Secret Service Agent Howlett went over to +these books and leaned over as if he were putting a rifle there? + +Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did he do? + +Mr. BAKER. Then we continued on down the stairs. + +Mr. BELIN. To the lunchroom? + +Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how long that took? + +Mr. BAKER. The first run with normal walking took us a minute and 18 +seconds. + +Mr. BELIN. What about the second time? + +Mr. BAKER. And the second time we did it at a fast walk which took us a +minute and 14 seconds. + +Mr. BELIN. You saw the stopwatch on all of these timing occasions when +it was started and when it was stopped, is that correct? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, I want to go back to the sixth floor a minute with Mr. +Dulles' questions. + +Mr. DULLES. Can we go off the record here one moment? + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. BELIN. On the record. + +Officer Baker, when you related your story earlier you said that as you +ran back on the first floor you first ran to the elevator shaft, is +that correct? + +Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. And you stopped at the east or the west elevator door? + +Mr. BAKER. That would be the west. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. This was on the first floor, and did you look up +the elevator shaft at that time? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; at that time I did. + +Mr. BELIN. This was while Mr. Truly was calling for the elevator? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Was there any kind of a gate between you and the elevator +shaft? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; there was. + +Mr. BELIN. Wood or metal, do you remember? + +Mr. BAKER. It is wood. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you see when you looked up the elevator shaft? + +Mr. BAKER. At that time I thought there was just one elevator there, +you know, one big freight elevator, and to me they looked like they +were up there, I didn't know how many floors in that building but you +could see them up there, it looked like just at that time, I thought it +was just one, when I looked up there, and it looked to me anywhere from +three to four floors up. + +Mr. BELIN. Was either elevator moving at the time or--pardon me, was +there any elevator moving at the time you saw and looked up the shaft? + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any elevator moving? + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly pushed the button, I believe you said. + +Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. When he pushed the button did any elevator start moving? + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. When you looked up the elevator shaft did it appear as if +there was one elevator covering the complete shaft or did it appear +there was one elevator that you saw covering half of the shaft? + +Mr. BAKER. Like I say, I thought it was one elevator there and it was +covering the whole deal up there so to me it appeared to be one. + +Mr. BELIN. It didn't appear to be two elevators on different floors? + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you got up to floor number two at the time +and you did that with the stairs. + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. At the time you got up there was there any elevator on floor +number two that you can remember, if you can remember? Maybe you cannot +remember, I don't know. + +Mr. BAKER. Evidently--now, I didn't look, evidently it wasn't because +it seemed to me like the next floor up Mr. Truly said let's take the +elevator. + +Mr. BELIN. At some higher floor after that? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, if we can go off the record for a moment here. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, first of all, handing you what the court +reporter has marked as Exhibit 498, I would like you to state if you +know whether or not this appears to be the door leading from the second +floor hallway into the vestibule going into the lunchroom. + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; it does. + +Mr. BELIN. Is this the door through which you glanced as you came +around the stairs coming up from the first floor? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you see that caused you to turn away from going up +to the third floor? + +Mr. BAKER. As I came out of that stairway running, Mr. Truly had +already gone on around, see, and I don't know, as I come around---- + +Mr. DULLES. Gone on around and up? + +Mr. BAKER. He had already started around the bend to come to the next +elevation going up, I was coming out this one on the second floor, and +I don't know, I was kind of sweeping this area as I come up, I was +looking from right to left and as I got to this door here I caught a +glimpse of this man, just, you know, a sudden glimpse, that is all it +was now, and it looked to me like he was going away from me. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Then what did you do? + +Mr. BAKER. I ran on up here and opened this door and when I got this +door opened I could see him walking on down. + +Mr. DULLES. Had he meanwhile gone on through the door ahead of you? + +Mr. BAKER. I can't say whether he had gone on through that door or not. +All I did was catch a glance at him, and evidently he was--this door +might have been, you know, closing and almost shut at that time. + +Mr. BELIN. You are pointing by "this door" to the door on Exhibit 498? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. You mean you might have seen him as he was opening and +going through the door almost? + +Mr. BAKER. Well, to me it was the back of it. Now, through this window +you can't see too much but I just caught a glimpse of him through this +window going away from me and as I ran to this door and opened it, and +looked on down in the lunchroom he was on down there about 20 feet so +he was moving about as fast as I was. + +Mr. DULLES. How far were you as you left the stairwell, the stairway---- + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. From that door through which you eventually went through +and then saw Oswald? + +Mr. BAKER. I would say that was approximately 15, 20 feet, something +like that. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. On Exhibit 499 is this a picture of the lunchroom? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; it is. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know what direction the camera is pointing to take +this picture? + +Mr. BAKER. It would be pointed eastward. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. I see a coke machine off on the left. When you +saw Oswald after you got to this doorway inside the lunchroom, had he +gone as far as the coke machine? + +Mr. BAKER. I didn't notice the coke machine or any item in the +room there. All I was looking at was the man, and he seemed to be +approximately 20 feet down there from me. + +Mr. BELIN. As you got to the doorway which on Exhibit 497 is marked as +number, what number is that, you are referring to this number 24 here? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, with relation to Exhibit 497 perhaps you can try to +trace your route as you came out from the stairway, as to the route you +took and the point you were when you first caught a glimpse of some +movement through that window or door? + +Mr. BAKER. At the upper portion of this stairway leading to the second +floor, I was just stepping out on to the second floor when I caught +this glimpse of this man through this doorway. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you want to put a spot there, with the letter "B" at the +point you believe you were when you were looking through that door? You +put the letter "B" on Exhibit 497 when you first saw the movement. + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. And then you, from that point, could you kind of trace your +route to the---- + +Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question before you ask this question, and +this is a bit of a leading question, and think carefully. + +If Oswald had been coming down the stairs and going into the lunchroom +would he have been following the course insofar as you saw a course, +that he--that you saw him follow? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. The reason I say that, this hallway to the +right---- + +Mr. BELIN. By the right you mean the hallway that goes to the--this +is---- + +Mr. BAKER. This is a hallway right here. + +Mr. BELIN. It is a hallway that has the number 27 on it? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; from what I understand these are offices in there. + +Mr. DULLES. Yes. + +Mr. BAKER. And he had no business in there and the lunchroom would be +the only place that he would be going, and there is a door out here +that you can get out and to the other part of the building. + +Mr. BELIN. I think Mr. Dulles' question relates to whether or not any +person would have taken a stairway or elevator to have gotten to that +point, is that correct? + +Mr. DULLES. Yes; that is correct. I am clear as you come up the stairs +you take a certain course you would go into the lunchroom. + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. I am not quite clear as to where you would end up on the +second floor as you come down the stairs, is it the same point? + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Dulles, if you will look on Exhibit 497, the stairway +appears to be the same stairway. You see the letter, the arrow, 21, +points to the stairway going up to the third floor which, of course, +would be the same stairway going down from the third floor and on the +building. + +Mr. DULLES. You would cross if you were going up and down, you would +cross right there at the same point? + +Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. And if a man were going up the stairs and then going to the +lunchroom and then coming down the stairs and going to the lunchroom, +he would be approximately following the same course from the time +he got off the stairs and went into that room before you get to the +lunchroom. + +Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, you had just marked on Exhibit 497 point +"B" where you thought you were at about the time you caught a glimpse +of something, either through a door or through the window in the door +marked 23, is that correct? + +Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you trace your route from point "B" to the doorway 23, +if you would, sir. + +Mr. BAKER. I ran right straight across here and through this doorway +and this is approximately where, I would say 23 here, is approximately +where I looked through this lunchroom and saw a man on down here. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. I am going to put an arrow at that point on +Exhibit 497, and this arrow in pen, I am going to put a "B-1" and at +that arrow which is just to the left of the circle with the number 24 +in it you say you then looked through the doorway and saw a man in the +lunchroom, right? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; walking away from me. + +Mr. BELIN. Walking away from you. And then where did you move from +point "B-1"? + +Mr. BAKER. I moved on to this position 24 right here in this doorway. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. I am going to put--you have put an "X" there, +and I am going to put that on Exhibit 497 as an arrow pointing to it, +with "B-2". Is this where you stood when you called to the man to come +back to you? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you move from that time until the man came up to you? + +Mr. BAKER. As I called, I remember moving forward a little bit and +meeting him right here in this doorway. + +Mr. BELIN. As you called you say you remembered moving forward and +meeting him right in the doorway which would be marked with the arrow +with number 24 on it on Exhibit 497, is that right? + +Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. After you got there, did you move until the man came up to +you? + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you notice what clothes the man was wearing as he came +up to you? + +Mr. BAKER. At that particular time I was looking at his face, and it +seemed to me like he had a light brown jacket on and maybe some kind of +white-looking shirt. + +Anyway, as I noticed him walking away from me, it was kind of dim in +there that particular day, and it was hanging out to his side. + +Mr. BELIN. Handing you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 150, +would this appear to be anything that you have ever seen before? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I believe that is the shirt that he had on when he +came--I wouldn't be sure of that. It seemed to me like that other shirt +was a little bit darker than that whenever I saw him in the homicide +office there. + +Mr. BELIN. What about when you saw him in the School Book Depository +Building, does this look familiar as anything he was wearing, if you +know? + +Mr. BAKER. I couldn't say whether that was--it seemed to me it was a +light-colored brown but I couldn't say it was that or not. + +Mr. DULLES. Lighter brown did you say, I am just asking what you said. +I couldn't quite hear. + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; all I can remember it was in my recollection of it +it was a light brown jacket. + +Mr. BELIN. Are you referring to this Exhibit 150 as being similar to +the jacket or similar to the shirt that you saw or, if not, similar to +either one? + +Mr. BAKER. Well, it would be similar in color to it--I assume it was a +jacket, it was hanging out. Now, I was looking at his face and I wasn't +really paying any attention. After Mr. Truly said he knew him, so I +didn't pay any attention to him, so I just turned and went on. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, you did see him later at the police station, is that +correct? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing anything that looked like Exhibit 150 at the +police station? + +Mr. BAKER. He did have a brown-type shirt on that was out. + +Mr. BELIN. Did it appear to be similar to any clothing you had seen +when you saw him at the School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. BAKER. I could have mistaken it for a jacket, but to my +recollection it was a little colored jacket, that is all I can say. + +Mr. DULLES. You saw Oswald later in the lineup or later---- + +Mr. BAKER. I never did have a chance to see him in the lineup. I saw +him when I went to give the affidavit, the statement that I saw him +down there, of the actions of myself and Mr. Truly as we went into the +building and on up what we are discussing now. + +(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.) + +Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker---- + +Mr. DULLES. I didn't get clearly in mind, I am trying to check up, as +to whether you saw Oswald maybe in the same costume later in the day. +Did you see Oswald later in the day of November 22d? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. DULLES. Under what circumstances? Don't go into detail, I just want +to tie up these two situations. + +Mr. BAKER. As I was in the homicide office there writing this, giving +this affidavit, I got hung in one of those little small offices +back there, while the Secret Service took Mr. Oswald in there +and questioned him and I couldn't get out by him while they were +questioning him, and I did get to see him at that time. + +Mr. DULLES. You saw him for a moment at that time? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, you then left the second floor lunchroom with +Mr. Truly, is that correct? + +Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay in the lunchroom after Truly +identified this person as being an employee? + +Mr. BAKER. Just momentarily. As he said, "Yes, he works here," I turned +and went on up the stairs. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Do you have any time estimate as to the period +of time that elapsed between the time that you first got to the head +of the stairs and saw some movement through that first doorway and the +time you left to go back up to the flight of stairs going to the third +floor? + +Mr. BAKER. I would say approximately maybe 30 seconds, something like +that. It was a real quick interview, you know, and then I left. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. As you left, did you notice whether or not the +man in the lunchroom did anything or started moving anywhere? + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir. As I left he was still in the position that he was +whenever I was facing him. + +Mr. BELIN. You then went where? + +Mr. BAKER. I immediately turned and went on, started on, up the +stairways. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. After going up the stairways, do you know what +numbered floor it was--I will ask you this, did you take the stairway +all the way to the top? + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir; we caught that elevator, it seemed like we went up +either one or two floors, and Mr. Truly said "Let's take the elevator, +here it is." + +Mr. BELIN. Did you take an east or west elevator? + +Mr. BAKER. We took the east elevator. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, the nearest elevator to you when you got off a flight +of stairs would have been the east or the west? + +Mr. BAKER. The west. + +Mr. BELIN. When you got off the flight of stairs Mr. Truly said, "Here +is an elevator," did the west elevator appear to be there? + +Mr. BAKER. I didn't notice. I was looking around over the building at +the time he said, "Let's take the elevator" and I just followed him on +around. + +Mr. BELIN. You went to an east elevator? + +Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. How far did it appear you rode up the elevator? + +Mr. BAKER. It was a short ride. We just, either went one or two floors. +I couldn't remember. I was still looking at the floors, you know, as we +went up. + +Mr. BELIN. As you rode up on the elevator, did you notice whether or +not you passed the elevator on the west side? + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't notice. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you notice or hear anything to indicate that the +elevator on the west side might have been moving? + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you take the east elevator as far as it would go? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; we did. + +Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do? + +Mr. BAKER. We had to walk up another flight of stairs to get up to the +top floor. + +Mr. BELIN. To get up to the roof? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. When you got off on the seventh floor or the top floor---- + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you notice whether or not the other elevator was there? + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BELIN. You didn't notice. You got off the east elevator and then +what did you do? + +Mr. BAKER. We walked up the flight of stairs to the top. + +Mr. BELIN. To the top. What did you do when you got to the top? + +Mr. BAKER. We went out on the roof. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do on the roof? + +Mr. BAKER. I immediately went around all the sides of the ledges up +there, and after I got on top I found out that a person couldn't shoot +off that roof because when you stand up you have to put your hands like +this, at the top of that ledge and if you wanted to see over you would +have to tiptoe to see over it. + +Mr. DULLES. If you look right behind you, Officer, you will see a +picture and you might point out what the top wall that is shown on that +photograph of the building is how high? + +Mr. BAKER. Well, it is about 5 feet. I know I had to put my hand on top +of it and tiptoe to see over it. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Mr. Dulles is referring to the picture of the +School Book Depository building on Exhibit 362 and in demonstrating +before the Commission as to where your hands were about how high are +they in relation to your shoulders or mouth or chin or what-have-you? + +Mr. BAKER. Approximately 5 feet. + +Mr. BELIN. Your hands are 5 feet high? Did you go over just to one roof +side or to all sides of the roof? + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir; we came out at this northwest corner back behind +this sign here. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. BAKER. And then I ran, kind of running walk, went all the way +around. First I glanced over this side here, because the last thing I +heard here on the radio was the chief saying, "Get some men up on that +railroad track." + +Mr. BELIN. Did you hear that on your police radio? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that was the last thing I heard. + +Mr. BELIN. As you were getting off your motorcycle? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Senator COOPER. I didn't hear what he said he heard on the radio? + +Mr. BAKER. I heard Chief Curry, the chief of the police over there, +say, "Get some men over on the railroad track." I think everyone at +that time thought these shots came from the railroad track. + +Mr. BELIN. By "everyone" do you include you, too? + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir. I had it--I was in a better position due to the +wind and you know under it, that I knew it was directly ahead, and up, +and it either had to be this building here or this one over here. + +Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to either the first building, you are +pointing to the School Book Depository Building, and the second one +you are pointing to is the one across the street. When you heard +this announcement on your radio was it while you were parking your +motorcycle? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Go ahead, if you would, please. You are on the roof now. + +Mr. BAKER. Well, as I looked over here, all these people, there were +people all over this railroad track. + +Mr. BELIN. You are saying as you are looking over the south and over +the west? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. BAKER. Then after I looked to see what was going on down there, and +then I figured out that he wouldn't have shot from that ledge he would +have shot from this sign or this old room, building back here on the +back side. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you are pointing to Exhibit 362 to the sign +on the top of the School Book Depository Building, the Hertz sign, and +some kind of a structure on the northeast corner of the building, is +that correct? + +Mr. BAKER. That is correct. + +Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, when you talk, I wonder if you would look at +me, we might be able to hear a little bit better. Would you tell us +what else you did? + +Mr. BAKER. As I finished going all around this building here and then I +came to this sign and I looked up there to see if I could find anybody +hiding up there and I started up these steps, it is a ladder there on +that sign, and I got on, say, 10 feet up there and I came back down, I +seen that nobody would shoot from up there. He wouldn't have no place +to hold on. + +Mr. BELIN. By that you are referring to climbing the ladder to climb up +the sign, is that correct? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; this large Hertz sign here. + +Mr. BELIN. On the top of the School Book Depository Building on Exhibit +362. + +All right. Then what did you do? + +Mr. BAKER. Then I came back down and I went and checked this building +right here. It is an old deserted room there of some type. + +Mr. BELIN. Some kind of a shack on the northeast corner of the building? + +Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Out there. What did you see when you saw that shack? + +Mr. BAKER. As I approached it, and looked under it, there wasn't +anything under it, and you could tell that pigeons had been roosting +there for sometime. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. There were indications that pigeons had been +roosting there? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. BAKER. No indications that anyone would be around there. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see any pigeons there as you approached it? + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir. They had all--at the time I kind of glanced and +they were still flying around in the sky up there. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do? + +Senator COOPER. You referred to pigeons, did you see some pigeon +droppings? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Had they been disturbed in any way? + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. BAKER. At that time I went on back. Mr. Truly was standing over +here on this northwest corner and we descended on the stairs there. + +Mr. BELIN. You went from the stairs to the roof to where, to the top +floor of the building? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the top floor of the +building? + +Mr. BAKER. We walked on down one more flight of stairs and then we +caught the same elevator back down. + +Mr. DULLES. The top floor was the seventh floor, is it not? + +Mr. BAKER. Well, you have one flight of stairs going from the top floor +on up. + +Mr. DULLES. Yes. + +Mr. BAKER. And then we caught the elevator back down, the same elevator +that we took up. + +Mr. BELIN. When you referred to one flight of stairs, are you referring +to the flight of stairs from the roof to the top floor that you took or +the flight of stairs from the top floor to the next to the top floor? + +Mr. BAKER. Well, there are two flights of stairs there. The one from +the roof down to the top floor and then there is another one there. + +Mr. BELIN. When you took the elevator back did you take it from the top +floor down or from the next to the top floor down? + +Mr. BAKER. That elevator to me, it didn't go to the top floor, it goes +to the next to the top. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you take it as far as it went? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. When--did you take an elevator down or did you take the +stairs down? + +Mr. BAKER. We took the elevator down. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you take the same elevator down you took up or did you +take a different elevator down? + +Mr. BAKER. We took the same one. + +Mr. BELIN. When you went to take that elevator going back down did you +notice whether or not the other elevator was there? + +Mr. BAKER. I didn't notice. It would be to my back and I was looking +out forward. + +Mr. BELIN. It would be to your back from where you came off the stairs +going to the roof? + +Mr. BAKER. Are you talking about when we got on the elevator? + +Mr. BELIN. When you got on the elevator to make the return trip? + +Mr. BAKER. There wasn't one there whenever we come around out of the +stairway, you know, to get on, you know we had to get on the east side +instead of just stepping over on the west elevator. + +Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, I am going to hand you what the court +reporter, what the Commission reporter, has marked as Exhibit 507 which +purports to be a diagram of the seventh floor of the Texas School Book +Depository Building and on that diagram you will see at the top the +marks of two elevators and then, what looks to be the south, a stairway +marked "Ladder to the roof." + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not this stairway marked +"Ladder to the roof" is the stairway that you took to go to the roof? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; it would be. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Now, when you got off the elevator which you took up to the top floor, +which you said was the east elevator---- + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you have any occasion to notice whether or not the west +elevator was on this top floor? + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't notice it. + +Mr. BELIN. You didn't notice whether it was or whether it was not? + +Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir? + +Mr. BELIN. When you got back down from the roof to this top floor, did +you have any occasion to notice whether or not the west elevator was on +that top floor or not? + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I still didn't look at the elevator. I was +following Mr. Truly and every time I had a chance I would look around +over the building. + +Mr. BELIN. You would look over the floor itself rather than the other +elevator? + +Mr. BAKER. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. You then got on the elevator to go on back down? + +Mr. BAKER. That is correct. + +Mr. BELIN. And I believe you said it was the east elevator, is that +correct? + +Mr. BAKER. That is correct. + +Mr. BELIN. How far did you take the east elevator down? + +Mr. BAKER. As we descended, somewhere around--we were still talking and +I was still looking over the building. + +Mr. BELIN. As the elevator was moving? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; downward. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. BAKER. The next thing that I noticed was Inspector Sawyer, he was +on one of those floors there, he is a police inspector. + +Mr. DULLES. City of Dallas Police? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. And he was on, I really didn't notice which floor +he was on, but that is the first thing I saw as we descended how this +freight elevator, you know, it has got these picket boards in front of +it and it has got it open so far, and it seemed to me like we stopped +for a moment and I spoke to him and I told him that I had been to the +roof, and there wasn't anything on the roof that would indicate anybody +being up there, and then we started on down. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you stay on the elevator while you spoke to him? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what floor it was that you spoke to him on +or how many floors down that you went from the top before you saw him? + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir; not at that time. It seemed to me like it was on +either the third or the fourth floor. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about how long you stayed on the roof? + +Mr. BAKER. It was a little over 5 minutes. + +Mr. BELIN. When you continued moving on the elevator after you talked +to Inspector Sawyer how far did you go on the elevator? + +Mr. BAKER. We went to the, I believe it would be the first floor there. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. You got off the elevator then? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you leave Mr. Truly or did you stay with him? + +Mr. BAKER. I left Mr. Truly there. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. BAKER. I immediately went on out. I was with this motorcade and I +went right on straight through the front door and got on my motorcycle +and tried to find out what happened to the motorcade. + +Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, when you left the building had the building +been sealed off or not? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; there was an officer at the front door. + +Mr. BELIN. The officer at the front door, was he stopping people from +coming in and out or what? + +Mr. BAKER. I assumed that he was but I, you know, just went on out. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +When you got to the first floor on the east elevator did you notice +whether the west elevator was there? + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else that you observed in or about the +Texas School Book Depository Building at that day that you haven't told +us about that you can think of right now? + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I can't think of anything else. + +Mr. BELIN. From the time you went into the building how long did it +take you to go up and make your searches and come on down until the +time you left, to the best of your recollection? + +Mr. BAKER. I would say that I was in there approximately 15 minutes. + +Mr. BELIN. And you left there right at the time that you left Mr. Truly +on the first floor? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. In this time sequence you mentioned you were on the roof +more than 5 minutes, that could be 25 or 30 or 10 or 15 or what? + +Mr. BAKER. This, to my recollection, it seemed like I shouldn't have +stayed up there over 10 minutes anyway, if that long. + +Mr. BELIN. So you would say somewhere between 5 and 10 minutes? + +Mr. BAKER. I just ran around up there looking for something; I didn't +find it and then we came on down. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Dulles, are there any questions that you have? + +Mr. DULLES. I have no more questions. Have you any questions? + +Mr. BELIN. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, I believe you testified that you later saw +Lee Harvey Oswald at the police station of the homicide office, is that +correct? + +Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Was this later on that same day? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, it was. + +Mr. BELIN. Would you state whether or not the man who was shown to you +in the police station as Lee Harvey Oswald was or was not the same man +that you saw and encountered on the second floor lunchroom of the Texas +School Book Depository Building on that day? + +Mr. BAKER. He was the same man. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else about his clothes that you can +remember or his dress that you haven't talked about here? + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I can't. + +Mr. DULLES. Do you recall whether or not he was wearing the same +clothes, did he appear to you the same when you saw him in the police +station as when you saw him in the lunchroom? + +Mr. BAKER. Actually just looking at him, he looked like he didn't have +the same thing on. + +Mr. BELIN. He looked as though he did not have the same thing on? + +Mr. BAKER. He looked like he did not have the same on. + +Senator COOPER. Did you say when you first saw this man walking away +from you in the lunchroom, walking away in the opposite direction, that +you said for him to come toward you. + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Did he turn around? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; he did. + +Mr. DULLES. The officer testified he had a pistol in his hand at that +time, Officer Baker? + +Senator COOPER. He did have a pistol in his hand? + +Mr. BAKER. I had the pistol. + +Mr. DULLES. Officer Baker had a pistol in his hand. + +Senator COOPER. I see. Did he move toward you? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; he did. + +Senator COOPER. Was there anything about his appearance that was +unusual? + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir. Whenever I called to him, well he turned around and +I had my gun in my hand, you know, and he started walking back towards +me and I walked to meet him, and I met him at that doorway over there +and about that time Mr. Truly who had started on up the stairs and then +he came back, he found that I wasn't with him, came back, and walked up +there aside of him and just about the time we met all three of us got +there together and I turned to Mr. Truly and I asked him, and I said, +"Do you know this man? Does he work here?" + +And he said, "Yes," and that is whenever I turned and went on up +the stairs. At that time he didn't say a word, he didn't change the +expression or nothing on him. + +Mr. DULLES. You testified, I believe, that he did not seem to be out of +breath? + +Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir. + +Senator COOPER. He did not show any evidence of any emotion? + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Did you see anyone else while you were in the building, +other than this man you have identified later as Oswald, and Mr. Truly? + +Mr. BAKER. On the first floor there were two men. As we came through +the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the +elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another +one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us. + +Mr. DULLES. Were they white men? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, we have an exhibit here 362 showing the first +floor of the School Book Depository Building, and the top part of the +exhibit is south. It is a little bit upside down from the usual top +being north. + +You will notice here the stairway in the front of the building. + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. And then there is a glass swinging door which I believe is +shown there. + +Could you mark the point at which you believe you were when you called +out for someone to tell you where the stairway or elevator was? + +Mr. BAKER. Is that the steps on the outside and this is the---- + +Mr. BELIN. These are the steps on the outside, this is the door, the +first door and this is kind of the main lobby here, below the words +"Main Entrance." + +Mr. BAKER. Well, as you come up the steps, there is a glass door here +in front of the building. + +Mr. BELIN. Pardon me, this will be the recessed glass door right here +swinging? + +Mr. BAKER. All of this is the lobby. + +Mr. BELIN. Yes, that is all the lobby. + +Mr. BAKER. OK. This is the first door that you open to get in. + +Mr. BELIN. Yes. + +Mr. BAKER. And this is the lobby. + +Mr. BELIN. Yes. + +Mr. BAKER. And then you have another set of glass doors. + +Mr. BELIN. There is another door right here, yes. + +Mr. BAKER. And on through this one you have a swinging door, a little +old counter-type door that swings---- + +Mr. BELIN. This would be the swinging door which would be to the west +of the room marked "Mr. Truly's office" on Exhibit 362? + +Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Where would you have been when you were yelling would +someone tell you about the stairs or the elevator? + +Mr. BAKER. At this point approximately where the "T" is here. + +Mr. BELIN. You would be where the "T" is? + +Mr. BAKER. I was standing inside the front doors and I wasn't too far +from this door here. + +Mr. BELIN. That would be the, what I call the, middle set of doors as +you come in, between the front set of doors and the doors by the side +of Mr. Truly's office, that little half door there. + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. And you were at the point as marked on Exhibit 362 +approximately where the word "T" is. + +Mr. BAKER. This lobby, to the best of my recollection, it seemed to me +like, would--I would say, about 15 feet wide or something like that. + +Mr. BELIN. Yes. + +Mr. BAKER. And I had come in there, oh, say, 4 or 5 feet whenever I +said, "Where is the stairway or the elevator?" + +Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you could show us on Exhibit 362 the route that +you took from the first floor to the time you went to the elevator? + +Mr. BAKER. I came through the first set of doors, the second set and +this second little old counter-type here, and kind of ran through that, +from the southwest corner here through this swinging door. + +Mr. BELIN. That is by Mr. Truly's office? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; to the northwest corner here. + +Mr. BELIN. By the west elevator. + +Mr. BAKER. West elevator, that is right. + +Mr. BELIN. Would this be roughly along the pen line already in there, +would you estimate? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that is pretty close to it. + +Mr. BELIN. You then went to the east elevator where Mr. Truly first +pushed the button for the elevator? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Any further questions? Mr. Attorney General, do you have +any questions? + +Mr. CARR. There is just one. There were many people around there at +that time, and the rest of the day---- + +Mr. DULLES. You are talking now about the Depository Building? + +Mr. CARR. Yes, sir; at the time he has been testifying about. Did you +have occasion during the rest of the day either in passing visits or +idle conversation or anything of that type with any of the people that +were there at the time who might have seen something or told you some +theory they had about what might have happened? + +Mr. BAKER. Not until last Friday morning. Chief Lunday, which is my +chief in traffic, called me and asked me to go down to this Texas +Depository Building, and I had--I have worked traffic outside several +times but I never did go inside or talk to any of the employees. + +Mr. CARR. I am referring to the people who were out there at the time +of the shooting. Did you have a chance during that day to talk with any +of them or did you overhear any conversations that might be material to +the investigation here? + +Mr. BAKER. The only ones that I talked to would be the solo officers +who were around him. + +Mr. DULLES. Around whom? + +Mr. BAKER. Around the President's car at that time. + +Mr. DULLES. What was the nature of those conversations? + +Mr. BAKER. Well, we just were discussing, each one of us had a theory, +you know where, how it happened, and really none of us knew how it +happened, it just happened, and where they was at in place, you know, +in reference to the car, would be about the only thing they could say, +and at the time the first shot they didn't know where the shot came +from. + +The second shot they still didn't know, and then the third shot some +of them over to the left-hand side, the blood and everything hit their +helmets and their windshields and then they knew it had to come from +behind. + +Mr. BELIN. Say this again, Officer Baker. When you say some were on the +left-hand side? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, I believe Officer B. J. Martin---- + +Mr. BELIN. Is he a motorcycle policeman? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; he is. + +Mr. BELIN. On a one- or two-wheeler or three-wheeler? + +Mr. BAKER. He is a solo motorcycle, two-wheeler. + +Mr. BELIN. Where was he riding at this time? + +Mr. BAKER. He was on the left front. + +Mr. BELIN. Of what? + +Mr. BAKER. There were five motorcycle officers in front. There were +four, two on each right side behind. + +Mr. BELIN. When you say in front and behind of what vehicle? + +Mr. BAKER. We are referring to the President's car. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. He was on the front and to the left of the +President's car. + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that is right. + +Mr. BELIN. What did he say to you about blood or something? + +Mr. BAKER. Like I say, we were talking about where the shot came from, +and he said the first shot he couldn't figure it out where it came +from. He turned his head backward, reflex, you know, and then he turned +back and the second shot came off, and then the third shot is when the +blood and everything hit his helmet and his windshield. + +Mr. BELIN. Did it hit the inside or the outside of his windshield, did +he say? + +Mr. BAKER. It hit all this inside. Now, as far as the inside or outside +of the windshield. I don't know about that. But it was all on the +right-hand side of his helmet. + +Mr. BELIN. Of his helmet? + +Mr. BAKER. On his uniform also. + +Mr. BELIN. On his uniform. + +Mr. BAKER. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. And he was riding to the left of the President and you say +ahead of the President? + +Mr. BAKER. On the left-hand side. + +Mr. DULLES. But a little ahead of him? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. They were immediately in front of the car. + +Mr. DULLES. Any other conversations--pardon me, does that answer your +question? + +Mr. CARR. I was more interested, sir, in that, of course, but with the +laymen around there. There was a lot of talk and theorizing at the +time and I was just wondering what he might have heard from any of the +laymen, or just ordinary onlookers of the parade, did you get a chance +to talk to any of them? + +Mr. BAKER. At that time I didn't get a chance to talk to any of those. +At that time I immediately got on my motorcycle and went on down to +the Trade Mart down there where he was set up for the luncheon and at +the time I got on there I didn't stop until here come a sergeant and a +medical examiner and they wanted me to take them code 3 to Parkland, at +the time I got there we stood around the President's car there and kept +the crowd back, and that is where I stayed until, I think we left after +they loaded the body, we went to Love Field and stayed there for, say, +30 minutes or something like that. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to--pardon me, sir, does that take care of your +questions? + +Mr. CARR. Yes, sir; thank you very much. + +Mr. DULLES. Any further questions? + +Mr. CARR. No; thank you, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to any of the other officers who were in or +about the President's vehicle at the time of the shooting? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I talked to several of them and all of them had +kind of had the same story, you know. It had to come from above and +behind. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you talk to these officers, like Officer Martin? + +Mr. BAKER. That was--I didn't talk to him until we got back to the city +hall, which we got off, we were supposed to get off at 3 o'clock that +day, we got off around 4 the same time, they called us all in together. + +Mr. BELIN. What other officers did you talk to and what did they say +that you remember? + +Mr. BAKER. I talked to Jim Chaney, and he made the statement that the +two shots hit Kennedy first and then the other one hit the Governor. + +Mr. BELIN. Where was he? + +Mr. BAKER. He was on the right rear of the car or to the side, and then +at that time the chief of police, he didn't know anything about this, +and he moved up and told him, and then that was during the time that +the Secret Service men were trying to get in the car, and at the time, +after the shooting, from the time the first shot rang out, the car +stopped completely, pulled to the left and stopped. + +Mr. BELIN. The President's car? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. Now, I have heard several of them say that, Mr. +Truly was standing out there, he said it stopped. Several officers said +it stopped completely. + +Mr. DULLES. You saw it stop, did you? + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't see it stop. + +Mr. DULLES. You just heard from others that it had stopped? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that it had completely stopped, and then for a +moment there, and then they rushed on out to Parkland. + +Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, did this Officer Chaney say anything else +about, for instance, where he thought the source of the shots was? + +Mr. BAKER. Not--he knew they came from behind him but he didn't know +where. He said from down there they was kind of going down that hill +and said that shot, the sound of it, you couldn't tell just exactly +where it came from. + +Mr. BELIN. How did he know it came from behind then? + +Mr. BAKER. Because he was riding from behind, and whenever it hit the +President, he said he would see him fall. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, you are giving a motion now, did he see him fall +backwards first or forwards or when you say fall what do you mean by +that? + +Mr. BAKER. Well, he just said, when they hit he kind of fell, so I +assumed he went to the left of him. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Did any other officer say anything to you about what he saw or thought +what happened? + +Mr. BAKER. I talked to several of them but I can't remember exactly, +you know, just what their story was. + +Mr. BELIN. Was there anyone you talked to who thought the shots came +from the front? + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir; not except that the chief of police that is the +only one. + +Now, that, like I say, that is the last thing I heard over that radio +is "Get some men up on that railroad." Now, that could mean they either +came from the side, which is due north, or right across in front of +him. You know---- + +Mr. BELIN. Well, apart from the statement you testified to that the +chief of police made over the radio about the underpass, was there +any policeman or patrolman who was in the motorcade who in any way +indicated to you that the shots came from the front? + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir. + +Senator COOPER. I would like to ask a couple of questions. + +I think you said when you went inside the depository you saw no one +except the man you later identified as Oswald, and Mr. Truly. There +were two people sitting down on the first floor. + +Mr. BAKER. As I entered that depository building, I was--people were +running toward you, I don't know whether they worked there or whether +they were just trying to get out of the way. + +Mr. DULLES. From inside the building? + +Mr. BAKER. No; from the street in. As I ran in I was pushing them aside +and running through them, and some way, Mr. Truly got from my back to +my front. + +Now, he said he was right behind me. I never did see him until I got in +and asked the question of where the stairs was, so evidently whenever +I went in the door why he came on in. There were several people coming +in as I, you know, came in, there were several in front of me and also +around my sides and my back. And it seemed to me like a double door +deal. + +Senator COOPER. As you went up on the elevator could you see out of the +elevator onto floors? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. The best that I could, that is the reason I wasn't +paying too much attention to the elevator I was looking around all +those floors. + +Senator COOPER. Did you see anyone? + +Mr. BELIN. When you say up on the elevator, he didn't get on the +elevator until he had got up on the stairs. + +Senator COOPER. I am aware of that. + +Mr. BAKER. I was still looking. + +Senator COOPER. You went up on the second floor by stairs? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Then you got on the elevator. + +Mr. BELIN. No, sir; he didn't get on the elevator until the fifth floor. + +Senator COOPER. Anyway, as you walked up the stairs could you see into +each floor space as you passed from floor to floor? + +Mr. BAKER. Partly. Now, this building has got pillars in it, you know, +and then it has got books, cases of books stacked all in it. And the +best that I could, you know, I would look through there and see if I +could see anybody. + +Senator COOPER. Did you see anyone? + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir. + +Senator COOPER. When you looked? + +Mr. BAKER. Not from the second floor on up. + +Senator COOPER. As you approached the building by motorcycle, did you +notice whether anyone was looking out of the windows of the Texas +School Book Depository? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. Those windows, I would say a number of them were +open and I tell you, to the best of my recollection, I scanned those +windows, but I can't recall anybody looking out of them, you know. I +looked at all them buildings so much and there were people looking out +of every one of them, every doorway and every window, and I really was +looking high more at the roof of it than I was anything, and I really +didn't see nothing in the windows. + +Senator COOPER. I may be repeating because I missed the first part of +his testimony. + +Mr. DULLES. Go ahead. + +Senator COOPER. But when you heard the shot, you said later you saw +some pigeons fly up. + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. What was the sequence of time between the time you saw +the flight of the pigeons and you heard the shot? + +Mr. BAKER. As I got that motorcycle straightened up, and I hadn't gone +just a very few feet there, it didn't seem like, you know, I went very +far, but it is possible I went, we figured maybe 80, 60 to 80 feet +there, and I looked up, as the shots started, I immediately looked +up, you know. I was already facing ahead and I just kind of raised, I +sighted up, and while I was looking up, those other two shots came off, +and as I come up, I noticed those pigeons start to fly up there, but I +really didn't see which, there were so many of them I couldn't tell +which building they were coming from but I know they were all over. + +Say you were facing north like Houston they were in the sky facing +north in the street. + +Senator COOPER. Which way were the pigeons going? + +Mr. BAKER. They were just coming up, you know. + +Senator COOPER. I assume you are a hunter, aren't you, from what you +said? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I try to be. + +Senator COOPER. Have you seen birds in flight when they are suddenly +startled? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Well, was this the character of the flight of pigeons +you saw? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that is the way it seemed to me, that these birds, +you know, just with a sudden uprush. + +Senator COOPER. Did you have any notice of anyone saying there might +have been a shot from the railroad until you heard the statement over +the radio just before you entered the School Book Depository? + +Mr. BAKER. No, sir; that was the only words that I remember that was +said over the radio from the time the shots rang out until I started +parking that motorcycle, and when I came off of it I heard those words. + +Senator COOPER. Could you see the railroad yards? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I could see it--this track ran under this triple +underpass to my left, all out behind this building. + +Senator COOPER. Did you see anything there which attracted your +attention other than---- + +Mr. BAKER. Nothing except---- + +Senator COOPER. Crowd? + +Mr. BAKER. There were people all over this track, over this triple +underpass, and people just standing all over this sloping bank there, +you know, going up. + +Senator COOPER. Were there any officers that you saw near the School +Book Depository when you went in? + +Mr. BAKER. There was an officer working traffic on that corner, and +Officer J. W. Williams was---- + +Mr. DULLES. By that corner you mean the corner of Elm and Houston? + +Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir. J. W. Williams who is a motorcycle +officer, was, I thought, over on the left-hand side of me, and he was +right with me, but as I ran in this building, I found out that I was by +myself. I didn't know where anybody went. + +Senator COOPER. Did you later see J. W. Williams, Officer Williams? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. He stated that when the motorcade left with the +President, and they immediately went code 3 to Parkland, why he was up +there with him and he went up there with him. And I later saw him out +there at Parkland. + +Mr. DULLES. You testified, I believe, that you did not yourself see +the President's car stop. You just were told it was stopped by several +other officers? + +Mr. BAKER. Let me say, as I parked that motorcycle, I looked down +there, well, the car had swerved to the left, and I saw this man run +out into this crowd and back. I don't know who he was but I saw that +and I saw these people following him, and all these pressmen jumping +out of their cars and running down the street toward him. + +Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, do you know from where this man ran off into +the crowd at all or not? + +Mr. BAKER. Apparently he came from one of the cars right there by +the President's car. He was, he came from the motorcade, inside the +motorcade out to the sidewalk and then back. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +You mentioned the fact that you had gone or come back from deer hunting +just prior to November 22, 1963. + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What kind of a weapon did you have when you went deer +hunting? + +Mr. BAKER. I had one of these .30-06, I believe the Springfield type. + +Mr. BELIN. Is it a rifle? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Automatic or bolt action? + +Mr. BAKER. Bolt action. + +Mr. BELIN. How long have you owned a rifle, any rifle? + +Mr. BAKER. This particular one I have had it approximately 7 years. + +Mr. BELIN. Have you had much experience to go hunting? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. Every year. + +Mr. BELIN. Every year you go deer hunting? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. You have had occasion to hear shots from your rifle? + +Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. From other rifles? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did this in any way influence your decisions as to what you +did on November 22 as you heard the first sound? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; it did. + +Mr. BELIN. In what way did it influence them? + +Mr. BAKER. To me it was immediately a rifle shot. A lot of the solo +officers said they thought it was the backfire from a motorcycle +because you can make those motorcycles pop pretty loud. But that +instant it just, I don't know, it just hit me as a rifle shot. + +Senator COOPER. How long have you been firing a rifle? + +Mr. BAKER. Say, from the time I was about 17 years old. + +Senator COOPER. Have you fired other types of rifles other than the one +you used? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; the first one I had was a 30-30 Marlin lever type. + +Senator COOPER. Have you ever seen the rifle that is alleged to have +belonged to Lee Oswald? + +Mr. BAKER. I saw it, a photograph of it, in the newspaper. + +Senator COOPER. Do you know what kind of rifle it is? + +Mr. BAKER. Not offhand. I heard it was some foreign make gun. Most of +the boys down there at the police department have had dealings with +foreign type guns, rifles, you know of this kind, and a lot of them +sell them, and a lot of them rework them, you know, make them into deer +rifles. + +Senator COOPER. What were the characteristics of the report that you +heard, three reports, which made you believe that it was a shot from a +rifle? + +Mr. BAKER. Well, they were too distinct, you know, to be--I have heard +that pop from that motorcycle and I have heard rifle shots, and to me +there was just a difference in them. + +Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, did it appear to you that these sounds that +you heard were from the same rifle or from possibly more than one rifle? + +Mr. BAKER. I would say they was from the same rifle. + +Mr. BELIN. Did it appear that the sounds all came from the same source? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. With regard to the closeness of these sounds together, how +fast they came, did it appear that it came from or that it could have +come from a weapon that had to be operated by bolt action as opposed to +a semiautomatic or an automatic weapon? + +Mr. BAKER. It seemed to me like you could either fire a semi or bolt +action in about the same time. + +Mr. BELIN. Have you had occasion to use a bolt action rifle and fire +shots quickly one after the other? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I have. + +Mr. BELIN. Did it appear that, from what you heard, that from your +experience you could have operated your own bolt action rifle as +quickly as those shots came? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. If you made any judgment, what was the length of time +from the time you heard the first report until you heard the third? + +Mr. BAKER. I would say just about as fast as you could bolt one of +those bolt action rifles which wouldn't be--I don't believe it would be +over 3 seconds apart. + +Mr. DULLES. Over what? + +Mr. BAKER. Three seconds apart. + +Mr. BELIN. From each shot? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Three seconds from the first to the second and another 3 +seconds from the second to the third? + +Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. You are saying not over 3 seconds? + +Mr. BAKER. Not over 3 seconds. + +Mr. DULLES. Any further questions? + +Thank you very much, Officer Baker. Your testimony has been very +helpful. (At this point Senator Cooper left the hearing room.) + + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. ROBERT A. REID + +Mr. DULLES. Mrs. Reid, the Chief Justice had to leave a few moments and +he expressed his regret to you. + +Mrs. REID. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. So I am presiding over the Commission at the present time. + +As you possibly have been informed, the purpose of the testimony this +morning has been to hear the testimony of Officer Baker, yourself, +and certain others who were in the vicinity of the Texas School Book +Depository Building at the time of the assassination of the President, +and we will ask you give testimony in that connection and anything else +you may know. + +Would you please rise, Mrs. Reid, and hold up your right hand. + +Do you swear the testimony you will give before this Commission is the +truth, the whole truth, so help you God, and nothing but the truth? + +Mrs. REID. I do. + +Mr. DULLES. Mr. Belin will carry forward the interrogation. + +Mr. BELIN. We met in Dallas on Friday, March 20. + +Mrs. REID. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Reid, could you state your name for the Commission, +please? + +Mrs. REID. Mrs. Robert A. Reid. + +Mr. BELIN. That is R-e-i-d? + +Mrs. REID. R-e-i-d, that is right. + +Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mrs. Reid? + +Mrs. REID. 1914 Elmwood Boulevard, Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. BELIN. And are you originally from Dallas? + +Mrs. REID. Well, I have been for quite a number of years. I was born +out in a little town out from Dallas, Cereal, Tex. + +Mr. BELIN. How long did you go to school in Dallas? Did you go through +high school? + +Mrs. REID. I completed high school there and I married and went to +Waxahachie and lived there about 15 years and moved back to Dallas then. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you have any family, Mrs. Reid? + +Mrs. REID. You mean like sisters or my children? + +Mr. BELIN. Well, children. + +Mrs. REID. Both, I have six sisters and I have two children and a +grandchild. + +Mr. BELIN. You have a grandchild? + +Mrs. REID. And a husband, and a family. + +Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation, Mrs. Reid? + +Mrs. REID. I am a clerical supervisor. + +Mr. BELIN. For what company? + +Mrs. REID. Texas School Book Depository. + +Mr. BELIN. How long have you worked for the Texas School Book +Depository? + +Mrs. REID. I have been 7 years. + +Mr. BELIN. Have you been a clerical supervisor all the time? + +Mrs. REID. No; I started out in the department on what they call their +postage desk and I was appointed to a clerical supervisor. + +Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Reid, I am taking you to November 22, 1963. + +Mrs. REID. All right. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were you on that day commencing with, say, around noon +or so? + +Mrs. REID. Well, at 12 I went to lunch, and I had my lunch rather +hurriedly so that I might go downstairs and watch the parade. + +Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Reid, you say you ate your lunch? + +Mrs. REID. Yes; I did. + +Mr. BELIN. Where did you eat your lunch? + +Mrs. REID. In our lunchroom, in the lunchroom. + +Mr. BELIN. Where is that? + +Mrs. REID. Well---- + +Mr. BELIN. On what floor? + +Mrs. REID. On two, the same floor as our office. + +Mr. BELIN. That is on the second floor? + +Mrs. REID. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you buy your lunch or bring your lunch? + +Mrs. REID. No; I brought my lunch. + +Mr. BELIN. Was there anyone in the lunchroom when you were eating lunch? + +Mrs. REID. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember who was there? + +Mrs. REID. Well, the girls that work under me, the young ladies, +goodness, it is all hard for me to remember how many there were, but +the general ones that usually eat there with me every day. + +Mr. BELIN. On Commission Exhibit 497, is this room, this lunchroom, the +one that is marked "lunchroom" here with the numbers 25 and 26 in it? + +Mrs. REID. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. And that is where you ate? + +Mrs. REID. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. And on Commission Exhibit 497 do you work on the second +floor also? + +Mrs. REID. I do. + +Mr. BELIN. In the area marked with the room "office space," somewhere +in that room? + +Mrs. REID. Over here. + +Mr. BELIN. You say you work over near the dumbwaiter which is marked? + +Mrs. REID. My desk---- + +Mr. BELIN. Your desk is near the dumbwaiter on Exhibit 497. + +Mr. DULLES. That is the desk there, is it? + +Mr. BELIN. That is the dumbwaiter. + +Mr. DULLES. Oh, yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, Mrs. Reid, you left lunch about what time? + +Mrs. REID. Well, I left, I ate my lunch hurriedly, I wasn't watching +the time but I wanted to be sure of getting out on the streets in time +for the parade before he got there, and I called my husband, who works +at the records building, and they had a radio in their office and +they were listening as the parade progressed and he told me they were +running about 10 minutes late. But I went down rather soon and stood on +the steps. + +Mr. DULLES. Where was your husband working? + +Mrs. REID. He works for the records building. + +Mr. BELIN. Where is that located? + +Mrs. REID. Well, it is off the left-hand side, kind of cater-cornered +across from our building. + +Mr. BELIN. The records building has one side of it on Elm Street +running from Houston to Record Street? + +Mrs. REID. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. And I believe it is on, it would run on, the south side of +Elm? + +Mrs. REID. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Is that correct? + +Mrs. REID. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Do you know about what time it was that you left +the lunchroom, was it 12, 12:15? + +Mrs. REID. I think around 12:30 somewhere along in there. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. When you left the lunchroom, did you leave with +the other girls? + +Mrs. REID. No; I didn't. The younger girls had gone and I left alone. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you the last person in the lunchroom? + +Mrs. REID. No; I could not say that because I don't remember that part +of it because I was going out of the building by myself, I wasn't even, +you know, connected with anyone at all. + +Mr. BELIN. Were there any men in the lunchroom when you left there? + +Mrs. REID. I can't, I don't, remember that. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mrs. REID. I can't remember the time they left. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, you went out from the lunchroom; turning to Exhibit +497, you went from the lunchroom through the door, which would be the +west door, and then through the doorway marked number 23 on the exhibit +there or did you instead go to the front? + +Mrs. REID. No; I came back through the office. + +Mr. BELIN. You didn't go through the door marked 24? + +Mrs. REID. No; I did not. + +Mr. BELIN. You came out through this first door of the lunchroom? + +Mrs. REID. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. And then you turned which way? + +Mrs. REID. Turned this way. + +Mr. BELIN. You turned to your left and went through the door which is +between numbers 27 and 28? + +Mrs. REID. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 497, and you went back to your office. Did you go +by your desk? + +Mrs. REID. I am sure I did because I usually leave my purse in there +until I get ready to go out and then pick it up. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. You walked toward the number marked 29 on Exhibit +497? + +Mrs. REID. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. Then where did you walk? + +Mrs. REID. I came over here and got my jacket and scarf out of the +closet. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +You are now pointing to the closet on Exhibit 497 which would be +located on the east side of the building? + +Mrs. REID. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. Toward the front. Then what did you do? + +Mrs. REID. I came and went out this door. + +Mr. BELIN. You are, you went out the door which is marked on Exhibit +497 as room 200, is that correct? + +Mrs. REID. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do? + +Mrs. REID. I got on the elevator. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, there is an elevator along the east wall toward the +front of the building, is that correct? + +Mrs. REID. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. Is this a freight or passenger? + +Mrs. REID. It is a passenger. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know how far this elevator goes or how high? + +Mrs. REID. Fourth floor. + +Mr. BELIN. Fourth floor. You got on the elevator on the second floor? + +Mrs. REID. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mrs. REID. Came down on the first floor. + +Mr. BELIN. Then you came on the first floor. + +Mrs. REID. Went out the front door of our building. + +Mr. BELIN. Went out the front door. + +Mrs. REID. I stood on the steps for several minutes. + +Mrs. BELIN. All right. + +Mrs. REID. Shall I continue? + +Mr. BELIN. Yes. + +Mrs. REID. Until I saw the parade coming around the corner from Main +and Houston and when I did I walked out to the street so I would be +nearer to the people, and I walked out and was standing by Mr. Truly +and Mr. Campbell. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. This was in front of the steps, ma'am? + +Mrs. REID. Well, no; I had gone out directly in the front but I had +gotten nearer to the street than the steps. + +Mr. BELIN. You were actually onto the street then as the motorcade came +by? + +Mrs. REID. Yes; that is right. There is a part in there where our +streets, one goes this way and one kind of goes off this way, and the +line of parade they were going that way and I got right on the curb and +was standing there. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, turning to Exhibit 361, the top of Exhibit 361 faces +south and this is Houston Street, here is the School Book Depository +Building that I am pointing to. + +Can you give any estimate as to where you were with relation to this, +well, I will call it a peninsula of land between the parkway and the +building. + +Mrs. REID. You have got me turned around. + +Mr. BELIN. The parade was coming along Houston. + +Mrs. REID. I was standing about along in here, in here. + +Mr. BELIN. You were standing a little bit to the north of the spot +marked "B" on Exhibit 361. + +Mrs. REID. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. And you would be directly in front of the main entrance of +the School Book Depository, is that correct? + +Mrs. REID. That is correct. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, by "B" I am referring to, on Exhibit 361, I am +referring to the pen ink--pen and ink "B" which is directly to the east +of what I will call the traffic light on that peninsula of land as Elm +goes into the parkway there. All right, what did you see? + +Mrs. REID. You mean when I was standing there? + +Mr. BELIN. What did you see and hear and do? + +Mrs. REID. Well, I was naturally watching for the car as the President +came by. I looked at him and I was very anxious to see Mrs. Kennedy, I +looked at her and I was going to see how she was dressed and she was +dressed very attractive and she put up her hand to her hat and was +holding it on, the wind was blowing a little bit and then went on right +on by me and that is the last as far as the parade, I mean as far as +they were concerned. + +I did see Johnson, and that was it. I can't even tell you any more +about the parade because after the shots I didn't know any part about +that. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you see and hear and do after that? + +Mrs. REID. Well, when I heard--I heard three shots. + +Mr. BELIN. You heard three shots? + +Mrs. REID. And I turned to Mr. Campbell and I said, "Oh, my goodness, +I am afraid those came from our building," because it seemed like +they came just so directly over my head, and then I looked up in the +windows, and saw three colored boys up there, I only recognized one +because I didn't know the rest of them so well. + +Mr. BELIN. Which one did you know? + +Mrs. REID. James Jarman. + +Mr. BELIN. You recognized James Jarman? + +Mrs. REID. Yes; because I had had some dealings with him in the +business part and I knew him. I couldn't have told you the other two at +all because I didn't know them. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember that floor you saw them on? + +Mrs. REID. Well, I wasn't exactly looking at the floor, I don't know, +I would say a couple of floors up. I mean several anyway. I don't know +exactly. + +Mr. BELIN. You don't remember which floor it was. + +Mrs. REID. I couldn't tell you because, you know, I didn't count the +floors and I didn't count them, and I made the statement "Oh, I hope +they don't think any of our boys have done this" and I had no thoughts +of anything like that. I turned and went back in the building. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, let me ask you this then. + +Mrs. REID. All right. + +Mr. BELIN. Before you turned and went back into the building did +you--did Mr. Campbell say anything to you? + +Mrs. REID. He said, "Oh, Mrs. Reid, no, it came from the grassy area +down this way," and that was the last I said to him. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. When he said "this way" which direction was he +pointing? + +Mrs. REID. Well, I hope I get my directions. In the direction of the +parade was going, in the bottom of that direction. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, did you look around after the shots and notice what +people were doing? + +Mrs. REID. Well, it was just a mass of confusion. I saw people +beginning to fall, and the thought that went through my mind, my +goodness I must get out of this line of shots, they may fire some more. +And don't ask me why I went into the building because I don't know. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else of people running or doing +anything else? + +Mrs. REID. No; because I ran into the building. I do not recall seeing +anyone in the lobby. I ran up to our office. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. DULLES. Just 1 second there. How long after the third shot did you +run into the building? + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Dulles, we did a reconstruction on that time sequence on +Friday and I am going to come to that as soon as I get the route first. + +Mr. DULLES. Right. + +Mr. BELIN. You went into the building in the main lobby? + +Mrs. REID. Yes; I did. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you take the elevator or the stairs? + +Mrs. REID. No; I went up the stairs. + +Mr. BELIN. Was this the front stairs or the back stairs? + +Mrs. REID. No; the front stairs. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. You went up through the stairs and then what did +you do? + +Mrs. REID. I went into the office. + +Mr. BELIN. You went into your office? + +Mrs. REID. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do? + +Mrs. REID. Well, I kept walking and I looked up and Oswald was coming +in the back door of the office. I met him by the time I passed my desk +several feet and I told him, I said, "Oh, the President has been shot, +but maybe they didn't hit him." + +He mumbled something to me, I kept walking, he did, too. I didn't pay +any attention to what he said because I had no thoughts of anything +of him having any connection with it at all because he was very calm. +He had gotten a coke and was holding it in his hands and I guess the +reason it impressed me seeing him in there I thought it was a little +strange that one of the warehouse boys would be up in the office at the +time, not that he had done anything wrong. The only time I had seen him +in the office was to come and get change and he already had his coke +in his hand so he didn't come for change and I dismissed him. I didn't +think anything else. + +Mr. BELIN. When you saw him, I believe you said you first saw him when +he was coming through the door? + +Mrs. REID. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Turning to Exhibit 497, what doorway was it where you first +saw him? + +Mrs. REID. Right here. + +Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to the doorway between numbers 27 and 28? + +Mrs. REID. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 497? + +Mrs. REID. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you saw him in that doorway? + +Mrs. REID. I was coming right through here. + +Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to what number there? + +Mrs. REID. Well, it is 29. + +Mr. BELIN. 29. And then about where were you when you actually passed +him or had this exchange? + +Mrs. REID. Right along here. I passed my desk. + +Mr. BELIN. Why don't you put on Exhibit 496 an "X" as to where you were +when you thought you passed him. + +Mrs. REID. Here. + +Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you would put the initial "R" which we will put +for Mrs. Reid. + +Mrs. REID. All right. + +Mr. BELIN. By the "X" and that is where you were when you passed him. + +On March 20 you and I met for the first time, didn't we, Mrs. Reid? + +Mrs. REID. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. We sat down and I asked you to tell me what happened and you +related the story. Did I keep on questioning you or did you tell me +what happened? + +Mrs. REID. Well, I more or less told you what had happened. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Then we went out on the street, did we not, in +front of the building, with a stopwatch, do you remember that? + +Mrs. REID. Yes; I surely do. It was kind of cool. + +Mr. BELIN. It was kind of cool wasn't it, and a little bit windy. + +Mrs. REID. Yes; it was; yes. + +Mr. BELIN. And when in Dallas, we started the stopwatch from the time +that the last shot was fired, is that correct? + +Mrs. REID. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. And then you went through your actions, what you saw, your +conversations that you had, and your actions in going back into the +building and up to the point that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mrs. REID. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how long by the stopwatch it took you? + +Mrs. REID. Approximately 2 minutes. + +Mr. DULLES. I didn't hear you. + +Mrs. REID. Two minutes. + +Mr. BELIN. From the time of the last shot the time you and Oswald +crossed? + +Mrs. REID. Yes; I believe that is the way we timed it. + +Mr. BELIN. When you--you saw me start the stopwatch and you saw me stop +it there, right? + +Mrs. REID. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. When you met in the lunchroom---- + +Mrs. REID. I didn't meet him in the lunchroom. + +Mr. BELIN. Pardon me, when you met in the office, which direction +were you going, looking toward Exhibit 497, as you look on it, which +direction were you going toward the left or right? + +Mrs. REID. You mean as I came in the office? I turned in and turned to +my left. + +Mr. BELIN. That would be heading in a westerly direction is that right? + +Mrs. REID. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What direction was Oswald walking? + +Mrs. REID. He was going east. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see him actually walk through or coming through the +door there? + +Mrs. REID. He had just gotten to the door, was stepping in as I glanced +up. + +Mr. BELIN. He was stepping in as you glanced up? + +Mrs. REID. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Had you ever--you said, I will put it this way, had you ever +seen Oswald in that second floor office space before apart from the +time of getting his pay? + +Mrs. REID. Well, one other time he came in, now he might have been in +to get that change for this time but I didn't see him going up there, +and he made a remark to one of the girls back there and she said, +"Well, he sure is calm." And I said, "What did he say to you?" + +And she says, "I have a baby," and he stopped and I said, "Well, he +is pretty calm just having a new baby," and outside of that I never +remember seeing him other than to come in to get change. + +Mr. BELIN. What about the other men in the warehouse, did they have +occasion to come into that office space? + +Mrs. REID. Occasionally they come up to get change. + +Mr. BELIN. Apart from getting change or getting paid? + +Mrs. REID. No; very seldom unless they are sent up there to get +something. I mean they just don't come in there and wander around. It +is some business for them. + +Now, I did see him in the lunchroom a few times prior to this eating +his lunch but I didn't even know his name. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you know his name on the day you saw him? + +Mrs. REID. No; I did not. When I saw his picture I still didn't know +his name until they told us who it was. + +Mr. BELIN. How did you know the person you saw was Lee Harvey Oswald on +the second floor? + +Mrs. REID. Because it looked just like him. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean the picture with the name Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mrs. REID. Oh, yes. + +Mr. BELIN. But you had seen him in the building? + +Mrs. REID. Other than that day, sure. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him? + +Mrs. REID. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind +of wash trousers. What color I couldn't tell you. + +Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission +Exhibit, first 157 and then 158, and I will ask you if either or both +look like they might have been the trousers that you saw him wear or +can you tell? + +Mrs. REID. I just couldn't be positive about that. I would rather not +say, because I just cannot. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over +his T-shirt? + +Mrs. REID. He did not. He did not have any jacket on. + +Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen anyone working at the book depository +wearing any kind of a shirt or jacket similar to Commission Exhibit 150 +or do you know? + +Mrs. REID. No; I do not. I have never, so far as I know ever seen that +shirt. I have been asked about that shirt before, I have seen it once +before but not since all this happened. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Mrs. Reid, if a person were in the lunchroom +with a coke on the second floor, and then wanted to get to the front +stairway or front elevator, would there be only one route to get there +or would there be more than one? + +Mrs. REID. Yes; he could either go around this hallway, or back here in +this hallway or he could have gotten through our office or---- + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +I wonder if in the first hallway you could mark route 1 there so we +have it on 496. + +Mrs. REID. Does it matter? + +Mr. BELIN. That is fine. + +Mrs. REID. You said the front stairway, too? + +Mr. BELIN. That is the front stairway. You have put a number 1, I am +going to put "R-1". + +Mrs. REID. All right. + +Mr. BELIN. And that will be one hallway to go down to get from the +lunchroom to the front stairway? + +Mrs. REID. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, would there be another way to get there? + +Mrs. REID. He can come through the office. + +Mr. BELIN. You could come through the office? + +Mrs. REID. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Which is the way Lee Harvey Oswald was walking? + +Mrs. REID. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. Would any one way be faster than the other or not? + +Mrs. REID. It couldn't be very much faster because it is practically +the same distance here that it is here and you have got this hallway +there. + +Mr. BELIN. So, either "R-1" or going through the office marked 29 would +be approximately the same? + +Mrs. REID. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, where you saw Lee Harvey Oswald is there kind of a +pathway through there without any obstructions for desks? + +Mrs. REID. Yes; there is, sort of a passageway. + +Mr. BELIN. You passed at point what you have marked with an "X"? + +Mrs. REID. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Is that correct? + +Mrs. REID. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. With an "R" and "X" to it? + +Mrs. REID. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did Lee Harvey Oswald walk past you? + +Mrs. REID. Yes; he did. + +Mr. BELIN. Kept on walking in the same direction? + +Mrs. REID. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. How far did you see him go? + +Mrs. REID. I didn't turn around to look. He went on straight, he did +not go on past the back door because I was facing that way. What he did +after that---- + +Mr. BELIN. But you know he did not go out the same back door he came in? + +Mrs. REID. No; he did not. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not he went into the conference room? + +Mrs. REID. Well, I wouldn't think he did because this door off here was +locked and I had unlocked it for the policeman myself. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, let's put an arrow here to the door that you say +was locked, and we will put--do you want to put in the word "locked" in +there, if you would, please? + +Mrs. REID. All right. + +Mr. DULLES. On which side was it locked or did you take the key away, +was it locked so that you---- + +Mrs. REID. I would go in from this way. I wasn't going in from our +office into the conference room. + +Mr. DULLES. And you locked that door? + +Mrs. REID. We did. They had asked me, I went in there with the +policeman into the conference room. + +Mr. DULLES. Did you take the key? + +Mrs. REID. Yes, sir; I did, I got it for Mr. Williams. + +Mr. DULLES. No; I mean after you locked the door do you leave the key +in the lock? + +Mrs. REID. No. + +Mr. BELIN. What I want to know is this, Mrs. Reid. When you came +back up into the building after the shooting and you walked into the +conference room, at that time was the door which you have marked +"locked," was it locked at that time when you came in? + +Mrs. REID. Yes, sir; it was to--it was locked when I got to it, I will +say that. + +Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Had you been the one who had locked it +before or don't you know? + +Mrs. REID. Oh, no, I couldn't say that because too many people used the +conference room. + +I would have no way of knowing who locked it or if it is left unlocked. +The porter locks it in the evening. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +If one is locking that door with a key do you lock the door from the +inside of the conference room? + +Mrs. REID. Either way. + +Mr. BELIN. Or the outside, either way? + +Mrs. REID. Either way. + +Mr. BELIN. Who has custody of the key? + +Mrs. REID. I got that from Mr. Williams' desk, because that is where +I got it from, and then the porter has one. I could not say. They all +have the keys. + +Mr. BELIN. When did you get it to unlock the door? + +Mrs. REID. Well, by the time the policeman got there and started +searching our floor. I can't recall whether I had taken him into the +lounge first because they had me to go in there with him, the ladies' +lounge, or whether they went in there because there is a little stand +in here that Mr. Cason uses when we have a conference, and he jerked it +back because it would have been humanly possible for a person to have +gotten in there, but it was up against the wall and there was no one +there. + +Mr. BELIN. Would this have been more or less than 5 minutes after you +got back in the building that you opened the lounge? + +Mrs. REID. That is where you all get me in this time because I was not +watching the clock that day. + +Mr. BELIN. That is all right. + +Mrs. REID. Time really didn't mean anything to us because they, the +police officers, just came in on us and began to ask so many questions. + +Mr. BELIN. When you were at point "RX" and moving, if someone would +have walked into the conference room would you have heard him in any +way? + +Mrs. REID. I could have heard him open the door. + +Mr. BELIN. You could hear them open the door. During the time, the +period of time you were there and saw Lee Harvey Oswald, did you hear +anyone open the door to the conference room? + +Mrs. REID. I do not recall any. + +Mr. BELIN. From your best judgment, if Lee Harvey Oswald didn't go +into the conference room and didn't go back to the door marked around +between 27 and 28, how would he have gotten out of the office? + +Mrs. REID. Right straight out this door down this stairway and out the +front door. + +Mr. BELIN. You are saying right down the hallway in the direction in +which the arrow number 29 is pointing? + +Mrs. REID. That is right. + +Mr. BELIN. Down through the hall and down through the front stairway. + +Have you ever talked to anyone there who ever saw Lee Harvey Oswald +leave the building? + +Mrs. REID. No; I haven't. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know of your own personal knowledge how he got out of +the building? + +Mrs. REID. No; I do not, I do not. I have no idea. + +Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Reid, did you notice whether or not the man you ran +into on the second floor whom you now identify as Lee Harvey Oswald was +carrying anything in either arm other than a coke? + +Mrs. REID. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Was the coke full or empty? + +Mrs. REID. It was full. + +Mr. BELIN. It was full. + +Was there anything else you noticed about him? + +Mrs. REID. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything about the expression on his face? + +Mrs. REID. No; just calm. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything about whether or not his clothes were clean or +dirty? + +Mrs. REID. Well, they were clean. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything about whether or not his hair was combed or mussed? + +Mrs. REID. No; I did not. There wasn't anything unusual. + +Mr. BELIN. You say he mumbled something? + +Mrs. REID. He did. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you even remember one word that he mumbled? + +Mrs. REID. I did not because he kept moving and I did, too, and I was +just not interested in what he was saying, it was just the excitement +of time and I didn't even say, "What did you say?" because I wasn't +interested. + +Mr. DULLES. Was he moving fast? + +Mrs. REID. No; because he was moving at a very slow pace, I never did +see him moving fast at any time. + +Mr. BELIN. He was moving just at his normal walk? + +Mrs. REID. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he was wearing any pieces of jewelry +like a watch or bracelet or ring or something? + +Mrs. REID. No; I do not remember that. + +Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Reid, did you ever have any personal contact with Lee +Harvey Oswald about such things as his paycheck or anything like that? + +Mrs. REID. No; I did not. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what hand he was carrying his coke in? + +Mrs. REID. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. In what hand? + +Mrs. REID. In his right hand. + +Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Reid, we thank you very much. + +Mr. DULLES. Just one moment. + +Mr. BELIN. Pardon me, do you have a question, sir? + +Mr. DULLES. How many times do you think you saw Mr. Oswald during the +period he was employed? + +Mrs. REID. My goodness. + +Mr. DULLES. Roughly. + +Mrs. REID. It couldn't have been---- + +Mr. DULLES. Five times, 10 times? + +Mrs. REID. I would say five times. At times I would go down to Mr. +Truly's office for some business. I would see him across the floor, but +he paid no attention to you and there were times, the few times, he ate +lunch up there but he never talked to anyone. + +Mr. DULLES. Never talked to anyone? + +Mrs. REID. And he was usually reading, I noticed that. + +Mr. DULLES. Did he seem to repel ordinary conversational attempts or +didn't you try that? + +Mrs. REID. I never did try it, I never did. + +Mr. DULLES. You never tried it. + +Mrs. REID. He seemed to be interested in what he was doing, I would +never see anyone talking to him at all in the lunchroom so far as I can +recall, not any time. + +Mr. DULLES. Who in the organization so far as you know would have +handled his paychecks? + +Mrs. REID. Mr. Campbell. + +Mr. DULLES. Campbell would have handled his paychecks. + +Mrs. REID. He makes them out and then he sends them to Mr. Truly and I +am sure he distributes it to his employees. + +Mr. BELIN. Two questions, Mrs. Reid. + +Mrs. REID. All right. + +Mr. BELIN. When we reconstructed your actions on Friday, March 20, +which you said it took about 2 minutes, would you say that this was a +maximum or minimum time? + +Mrs. REID. Well, it wasn't any less than that I am sure because 2 +minutes time---- + +Mr. BELIN. Did we kind of run? + +Mrs. REID. Yes, we did, three times. + +Mr. BELIN. Three times. + +Mrs. REID. I remember that. + +Mr. BELIN. And we were both huffing and puffing? + +Mrs. REID. Yes, we were. I know I was that day, I think. + +Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Reid, since the tragedy of November 22, have there been +any discussions that you have heard among any employees which might +relate to the character insofar as the personal habits or what-have-you +of Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mrs. REID. The only thing I have heard anybody say was he never talked +to anybody, he always went about his business, that is the only thing I +heard the employees say. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever hear anyone say that he might have been +friendly with at least one other employee? + +Mrs. REID. No; I have not. + +Mr. DULLES. Did the employees discuss him at all among themselves? + +Mrs. REID. You mean prior to this? + +Mr. DULLES. Prior, during the period he was employed there? + +Mrs. REID. No. + +Mr. DULLES. At the Book Depository? + +Mrs. REID. I never heard it. + +Mr. DULLES. They did not discuss him in your presence, the office +employees? + +Mrs. REID. Well, the office employees and the warehouse employees are +not connected. We talk to them, naturally some of them have been there +a long time. + +Mr. DULLES. Was it your usual practice to take lunch in the lunchroom +on the second floor? + +Mrs. REID. Yes, it is; every day. + +Mr. DULLES. Do you recall whether it was Lee Harvey Oswald's usual +practice or how many times possibly you saw him there at lunch with you +and the others? + +Mrs. REID. You mean did he come up every day? No, he did not. + +Mr. DULLES. Would you think he came up half the days or could you give +any--half the working days? + +Mrs. REID. No; I wouldn't say he came that often. I can't recall seeing +him up there but three times. We have said since then, since he sat +there and didn't say anything and was reading we have often wondered +what we discussed before him because we all have a general conversation +every day at noon but I don't know we would have said anything that +interested him. + +But you wondered was he listening to what we were saying, I don't know +whether he heard anything but he may have heard what we were saying. + +Mr. DULLES. You, of course, knew that Lee Harvey Oswald was an employee +of the School Book Depository? + +Mrs. REID. You mean by name before this happened? + +Mr. DULLES. That the individual that you later knew was Oswald was one +of the employees of the school book? + +Mrs. REID. Yes, because I had seen him working in the building. + +Mr. DULLES. Yes. Attorney General Carr, do you have any questions? + +Mr. CARR. Mrs. Reid, have you had occasion to visit with any of +Oswald's relatives, his wife or mother? + +Mrs. REID. No. + +Mr. CARR. Have they been in there since that date to look over the +premises? + +Mrs. REID. His mother has been but I didn't see her. She didn't go any +further than the first floor I understand, but I have never seen her +other than these pictures. + +Mr. DULLES. Is it usual for the employees of the depository to have +friends visit them during office hours or would that be an unusual +practice? + +Mrs. REID. No; that would not be unusual. Family or somebody wanted to +drop by to see you they never have objected to that. + +Mr. BELIN. I think the record should show we are offering in evidence +this morning, Mr. Dulles, Commission Exhibit 507 which is the diagram +of the seventh floor which Officer Baker testified to. + +Mr. DULLES. You want that admitted now? + +Mr. BELIN. We want that admitted now. + +Mr. DULLES. No objection. It will be admitted. + +(The diagram referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 507 for +identification and received in evidence.) + +Mr. BELIN. I think those are all the questions we have of Mrs. Reid. + +We want to thank you very much for your cooperation in coming up here, +Mrs. Reid. + +Mrs. REID. Thank you. + +Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much, Mrs. Reid. + +I will tell the Chief Justice of your cooperation and helpfulness. + +We will reconvene at 2:30. + +(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +Afternoon Session + +TESTIMONY OF LUKE MOONEY + + +The President's Commission reconvened at 2:15 p.m. + +Senator COOPER. The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony +of Officer Baker, whose testimony has been heard; Mrs. Reid, Eugene +Boone, Luke Mooney, and M. N. McDonald. Officer Baker and Mrs. Reid +were in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building +at the time of the assassination. Deputy Sheriffs Boone and Mooney +assisted in the search of the sixth floor of the Texas School Book +Depository Building shortly after the assassination, and Officer +McDonald apprehended Lee Harvey Oswald at the Texas Theatre. + +Officer Mooney, will you raise your right hand? + +You do solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be +the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. MOONEY. I do, sir. + +Senator COOPER. You are informed now of the nature and purpose of this +inquiry. + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Do you appear here voluntarily? + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Do you have counsel with you? + +Mr. MOONEY. No, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Do you desire counsel? + +Mr. MOONEY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Mr. Mooney, what is your occupation? + +Mr. MOONEY. I am a deputy sheriff, Dallas County, Tex. + +Mr. BALL. How long have you been in that job? + +Mr. MOONEY. I have been on the force since February 1, 1958. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you born? + +Mr. MOONEY. Hopkins County, south of Brashear. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go to school there? + +Mr. MOONEY. I went to school at Middle Grove, Tex. + +Mr. BALL. How far did you go through school? + +Mr. MOONEY. I finished high school there. + +Mr. BALL. And then where did you go? + +Mr. MOONEY. Well, I finished making a crop--I was a farm boy. My father +passed away. I started school at A. & M. and had to withdraw after my +father's death, and come back home to my mother, because I was the only +child at home. And later on I took a course in aeronautical work, at +Luscomb School of Aeronautics, in Dallas, which is about--at that time +was about 75 miles from my home, and finished the course, and worked +for Luscomb in Garland, Tex., which is a suburb, or 15 miles out of +Dallas. + +And I worked there approximately a year before I was drafted into the +U.S. armed services. I was 19 years old when I was drafted, one of the +first. + +Mr. BALL. How long were you in the service? + +Mr. MOONEY. From 1942--I went in December, I believe it was, 28th, +1942, and got out February 20, 1946. I believe that is correct. + +Mr. BALL. And what did you do then, after that? + +Mr. MOONEY. I returned home on discharge, discharged out of the +services, honorable discharge. And I went to Dallas again, come back to +Dallas. + +After a short couple of weeks vacation, so to speak, I took a business +course at Drawns Business College in Dallas. + +I finished the course there and was employed at Johnson Brothers +Chevrolet Co. for 10 years, approximately 10 years, as a dispatcher +in the service department, in charge of the shops. And for 2 years I +worked for an automobile financing company, Associate Investment Co. + +And after 2 years of service there, I was employed by the Dallas County +Sheriff's Office, because I didn't desire to be transferred out of the +city of Dallas. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of work did you do for the sheriff's office? + +Mr. MOONEY. I worked in the Writ and Execution Department, Civil Law, +Writ of Sequestrations and Executions. That is my principal job. +However, we do everything that comes down. + +Mr. BALL. What do you call that writ? + +Mr. MOONEY. Writ of Sequestration, or you might call it sequest. + +Mr. BALL. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963? + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; I was. + +Mr. BALL. What was your job on that day? + +Mr. MOONEY. I didn't have a special assignment. Some of the officers +did out at the Market Hall. I was waiting in front of the Dallas +Criminal Courts Building, which is the sheriff's office, and we were +waiting outside on the front steps there. I was down on the sidewalk, +off the steps, on the street level, waiting for the motorcade to +approach. + +Mr. BALL. Were you standing there when the President went by? + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. I took my hat off. + +Mr. BALL. That is on Main Street? + +Mr. MOONEY. Right. + +Mr. BALL. And that is---- + +Mr. MOONEY. 505 Main. + +Mr. BALL. That is where the cavalcade turned north? + +Mr. MOONEY. Made a right turn, yes, sir; on Houston Street. + +Mr. BALL. That building is about a block south on Houston, isn't +it--south of the Texas School Book Depository? + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; it is a short block there. + +Mr. BALL. After the President's car went by, what did you do? + +Mr. MOONEY. Well, we were--we was more or less milling around. We just +kept standing there, more or less talking to one another. + +I don't know how many seconds had elapsed--it wasn't too many. + +Mr. BALL. You say "we." Who was with you? + +Mr. MOONEY. There was another officer there, Hiram Ingram--he is an +officer, also, a deputy sheriff. And I believe Ralph Walters was +standing there with me, and I believe there was a lady standing there, +by the name of Martha Johnson, who is one of the judges' wife, a JP +judge. + +I believe Officer Boone was standing near us, also. And I don't recall +how many more. There was a number of officers there. + +Mr. BALL. What happened, as you remember? + +Mr. MOONEY. After that few seconds elapsed, we heard this shot ring +out. At that time, I didn't realize it was a shot. The wind was blowing +pretty high, and, of course, it echoed. I turned my head this way. + +Mr. BALL. You mean to the right? + +Mr. MOONEY. To the right; yes, sir. We were facing more or less south. +And I turned my head to the right. + +Mr. BALL. That would be looking towards Houston Street? + +Mr. MOONEY. Looking towards the old court. + +Well, when I turned my head to the right; yes, sir. I would be looking +west. And there was a short lapse between these shots. I can still hear +them very distinctly--between the first and second shot. The second and +third shot was pretty close together, but there was a short lapse there +between the first and second shot. Why, I don't know. But when that +begin to take place--after the first shot we started moving out. And by +the time I started running--all of us except Officer Ingram--he had a +heart attack, and, of course, he wasn't qualified to do any running. + +Mr. BALL. Which way? + +Mr. MOONEY. Due west, across Houston Street, went down across this +lawn, across Elm Street there--I assume it is approximately the +location the President was hit. + +Of course the motorcade was gone. There wasn't anything there except a +bunch of people, a lot of them laying on the ground, taking on, various +things. I was running at full speed. + +Mr. BALL. When you ran across Elm, where did you go? + +Mr. MOONEY. Across Elm, up the embankment, which is a high terrace +there, across--there is a kind of concrete building there, more or less +of a little park. + +Jumped over the fence and went into the railroad yards. And, of course, +there was other officers over there. Who they were, I don't recall at +this time. But Ralph Walters and I were running together. And we jumped +into the railroad yards and began to look around there. + +And, of course, we didn't see anything there. Of course the other +officers had checked into the car there, and didn't find anything, I +don't believe, but a Negro porter. Of course there were quite a few +spectators milling around behind us. We were trying to clear the area +out and get all the civilians out that wasn't officers. + +Mr. BALL. Why did you go over to the railroad yard? + +Mr. MOONEY. Well, that was--from the echo of the shots, we thought they +came from that direction. + +Mr. BALL. That would be north and west from where you were standing? + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. To a certain extent--northwest. The way the echo +sounded, the cracking of the shot. And we wasn't there many seconds--of +course I never did look at my watch to see how many seconds it took +us to run so many hundred yards there, and into the railroad yard. We +were there only a few seconds until we had orders to cover the Texas +Depository Building. + +Mr. BALL. How did you get those orders? + +Mr. MOONEY. They were referred to us by the sheriff, Mr. Bill Decker. + +Mr. BALL. Where was he when he gave you those orders? + +Mr. MOONEY. They were relayed on to us. I assume Mr. Decker was up near +the intersection of Elm and Houston. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear it over a loudspeaker? + +Mr. MOONEY. No, sir. It come by word, by another officer. + +Mr. BALL. And you were with Walters at that time? + +Mr. MOONEY. Right. And where Officer Walters went at that time, I don't +know. We split up. I didn't see him any more until later on, which I +will refer to later. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go? + +Mr. MOONEY. Mr. Webster and Mr. Vickery were there with me at the time +that we received these orders from another deputy. + +Mr. BALL. They are deputy sheriffs? + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; they were plainclothes officers like myself, work +in the same department, and we run right over to the building then, +which we were only 150, 200 feet back--I assume it is that distance--I +haven't measured it. It didn't take us but a few seconds to get there. +When we hit the rear part, these big iron gates, they have cyclone +fencing on them--this used to be an old grocery store warehouse--Sachs +& Co., I believe is correct. And I says let's get these doors closed to +block off this rear entrance. + +Mr. BALL. Were the doors open? + +Mr. MOONEY. They were wide open, the big gates. So I grabbed one, and +we swung them to, and there was a citizen there, and I put him on +orders to keep them shut, because I don't recall whether there was a +lock on them or not. Didn't want to lock them because you never know +what might happen. + +So he stood guard, I assume, until a uniformed officer took over. + +We shut the back door--there was a back door on a little dock. And then +we went in through the docks, through the rear entrance. + +Officer Vickery and Webster said, "We will take the staircase there in +the corner." + +I said, "I will go up the freight elevator." I noticed there was a big +elevator there. So I jumped on it. And about that time two women come +running and said, "we want to go to the second floor." + +I said, "All right, get on, we are going." + +Mr. BALL. Which elevator did you get on? + +Mr. MOONEY. It was the one nearest to the staircase, on the northwest +corner of the building. + +Mr. BALL. There are two elevators there? + +Mr. MOONEY. I found that out later. I didn't know it at that time. + +Mr. BALL. You took the west one, or the east one? + +Mr. MOONEY. I would say it was the west elevator, the one nearest to +the staircase. + +Mr. BALL. Did it work with a push button? + +Mr. MOONEY. It was a push button affair the best I can remember. I +got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the +second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got +there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power +on the elevator. So I looked around their office there, just a short +second or two, and then I went up the staircase myself. And I met some +other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were +deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going +up. And how come I get off the sixth floor, I don't know yet. But, +anyway, I stopped on six, and didn't even know what floor I was on. + +Mr. BALL. You were alone? + +Mr. MOONEY. I was alone at that time. + +Mr. BALL. Was there any reason for you to go to the sixth floor? + +Mr. MOONEY. No, sir. That is what I say. I don't know why. I just +stopped on that particular floor. I thought I was pretty close to the +top. + +Mr. BALL. Were there any other officers on the floor? + +Mr. MOONEY. I didn't see any at that time. I assume there had +been other officers up there. But I didn't see them. And I begin +criss-crossing it, round and round, through boxes, looking at open +windows--some of them were open over on the south side. + +And I believe they had started laying some flooring up there. + +I was checking the fire escapes. And criss-crossing back and forth. And +then I decided--I saw there was another floor. And I said I would go +up. So I went on up to the seventh floor. I approached Officers Webster +and Vickery. They were up there--in this little old stairway there that +leads up into the attic. So we climbed up in there and looked around +right quick. We didn't climb all the way into the attic, almost into +it. We said this is too dark, we have got to have floodlights, because +we can't see. And so somebody made a statement that they believed +floodlights was on the way. And I later found out that probably +Officers Boone and Walters had gone after lights. I heard that. + +And so we looked around up there for a short time. And then I says I am +going back down on six. + +At that time, some news reporter, or press, I don't know who he was--he +was coming up with a camera. Of course he wasn't taking any pictures. +He was just looking, too, I assume. So I went back down ahead of +Officers Vickery and Webster. They come in behind me down to the sixth +floor. + +I went straight across to the southeast corner of the building, and +I saw all these high boxes. Of course they were stacked all the +way around over there. And I squeezed between two. And the minute +I squeezed between these two stacks of boxes, I had to turn myself +sideways to get in there--that is when I saw the expended shells and +the boxes that were stacked up looked to be a rest for the weapon. And, +also, there was a slight crease in the top box. Whether the recoil made +the crease or it was placed there before the shots were fired, I don't +know. But, anyway, there was a very slight crease in the box, where the +rifle could have lain--at the same angle that the shots were fired from. + +So, at that time, I didn't lay my hands on anything, because I wanted +to save every evidence we could for fingerprints. So I leaned out the +window, the same window from which the shots were fired, looked down, +and I saw Sheriff Bill Decker and Captain Will Fritz standing right on +the ground. + +Well, so I hollered, or signaled--I hollered, I more or less hollered. +I whistled a time or two before I got anybody to see me. And yet they +was all looking that way, too--except the sheriff, they wasn't looking +up. + +And I told him to get the crime lab officers en route, that I had the +location spotted. + +So I stood guard to see that no one disturbed anything until Captain +Will Fritz approached with his group of officers, city officers. At +that time, of course, when I hollered, of course Officers Vickery +and Webster, they came across and later on several other deputies--I +believe Officers McCurley, A. D. McCurley, I believe he came over. +Where he came from--they was all en route up there, I assume. + +Mr. BALL. I show you three pictures, Officer; for your convenience I +will give you the pictures. + +I have a picture here which has been marked as Commission Exhibit 508. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 508 for +identification.) + +Mr. BALL. Does that look anything like the southeast corner of the +building as you saw it that afternoon? + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. About what time of day was this? + +Mr. MOONEY. Well, it was approaching 1 o'clock. It could have been 1 +o'clock. + +Mr. BALL. Did you look at your watch? + +Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; I didn't. I should have, but I didn't look at my +watch at the time to see what time it was. + +Mr. BALL. Were you the only officer in that corner? + +Mr. MOONEY. At that very moment I was. + +Mr. BALL. You say you squeezed behind certain boxes. Can you point out +for me what boxes you squeezed through? + +Mr. MOONEY. If I remember correctly, I went in there from this angle +right here--right through here. There could be a space. There is a +space there I squeezed in between here, and that is when I got into +the opening, because the minute I squeezed through there there lay the +shells. + +Mr. BALL. All right. Let's make a mark here. Is this the space? + +Mr. MOONEY. I believe that is going to be the space; yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. If I make an arrow on that, would that indicate it? + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. There is another picture I have seen later that +shows an opening in through here, but I didn't see that opening at that +time. + +Mr. BALL. That is the opening through which you squeezed? And it is an +arrow shown on Exhibit 508. + +Now, I will show you 509. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 509 for +identification.) + +Is that the way the boxes looked? + +Mr. MOONEY. That is the three boxes, but one of them was tilted off +just a little, laying down on the edge, I believe, to my knowledge. + +Mr. BALL. Now, does that look like---- + +Mr. MOONEY. That is the three boxes that were there; yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Are they arranged as they were when you saw them? + +Mr. MOONEY. I am not positive. As I remember right, there was one box +tilted off. + +Mr. BALL. What were the boxes--did they have a label on them, two of +the boxes? + +Mr. MOONEY. These do. I didn't notice the label at that time. + +Mr. BALL. That is a picture of the window? + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Do I understand that you say that it appeared to you that the +top box was tilted? + +Mr. MOONEY. The end of it was laying this way. + +Mr. BALL. You say there was a crease in a box. Where was that crease? + +Mr. MOONEY. This crease was right in this area of this box. + +Mr. BALL. You mean over on the edge? + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; on this far ledge here, where I am laying my +finger. + +Mr. BALL. Did it go into the box? + +Mr. MOONEY. Very slight crease, very slight. + +Mr. BALL. Can you take this and point out about where the crease was on +509? + +Now, was there anything you saw over in the corner? + +Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; I didn't see anything over in the corner. I did +see this one partially eaten piece of fried chicken laying over to the +right. It looked like he was facing---- + +Mr. BALL. Tell us where you found it? + +Mr. MOONEY. It would be laying over on the top of these other boxes. +This here is kind of blurred. + +Mr. BALL. We will get to that in a moment. Now, I show you 510. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 510 for +identification.) + +Mr. BALL. Is that the empty shells you found? + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Are they shown there? + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, will you take this and encircle the shells? + +Mr. MOONEY. All right. + +Mr. BALL. Put a fairly good sized circle around each shell. That is the +way they were when you saw them, is that right? + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. I assume that this possibly could have been the +first shot. + +Mr. BALL. You cannot speculate about that? + +Mr. MOONEY. You cannot speculate about that. + +Mr. BALL. Those were empty shells? + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. They were turned over to Captain Fritz? + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; he was the first officer that picked them up, as +far as I know, because I stood there and watched him go over and pick +them up and look at them. As far as I could tell, I couldn't even tell +what caliber they were, because I didn't get down that close to them. +They were brass cartridges, brass shells. + +Mr. BALL. Is this the position of the cartridges as shown on 510, as +you saw them? + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. That is just about the way they were laying, to +the best of my knowledge. I do know there was--one was further away, +and these other two were relatively close together--on this particular +area. But these cartridges--this one and this one looks like they are +further apart than they actually was. + +Mr. BALL. Which ones? + +Mr. MOONEY. This one and this one. + +Mr. BALL. Now, two cartridges were close together, is that right? + +Mr. MOONEY. The one cartridge here, by the wall facing, is right. And +this one and this one, they were further away from this one. + +Mr. BALL. Well---- + +Mr. MOONEY. But as to being positive of the exact distance---- + +Mr. BALL. You think that the cartridges are in the same position as +when you saw them in this picture 510? + +Mr. MOONEY. As far as my knowledge, they are; pretty close to right. + +Mr. BALL. Well, we will label these cartridges, the empty shells as +"A", "B", and "C." + +Now, I didn't quite understand--did you say it was your memory that "A" +and "B" were not that close together? + +Mr. MOONEY. Just from my memory, it seems that this cartridge ought to +have been over this way a little further. + +Mr. BALL. You mean the "B" cartridge should be closer to the "C?" + +Mr. MOONEY. Closer to the "C"; yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, I have another picture here which I should like to have +marked as 511. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 511 for +identification.) + +Mr. BALL. Does this appear to be--first of all, does that appear---- + +Mr. MOONEY. There are two cartridges. + +Where is the third one? + +Mr. BALL. The third one is not in this picture. This is taken from +another angle. + +Mr. MOONEY. This looks more like it than this angle here. + +Mr. BALL. You can see it is a different angle. + +Mr. MOONEY. That is right. + +Mr. BALL. Now, in this same picture--511, you see a box in the window. +Does that seem to be about the angle---- + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes; that box was tilted. + +Mr. BALL. That was tilted in that way? + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, when you made a crease on 509, the box shown in 509---- + +Mr. MOONEY. The box should have been actually tilted. + +Mr. BALL. In other words, it was your testimony, was it, that the box +as shown in 509 was not as you first saw it? + +Mr. MOONEY. If I recall it right, this box was tilted. It had fallen +off--looked like he might have knocked it off. + +Mr. BALL. Well, you cannot speculate to that, but you can just tell us +what you saw. What about the box in the window shown in 511? + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Is that the box that had the crease on it? + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; I believe that is correct. + +Mr. BALL. Now, the crease was--started from the edge, and came across? + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; just a slight crease. + +Mr. BALL. I have another picture. This is 512. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 512 for +identification.) + +Mr. BALL. Here is a picture taken, also, from another angle. Does that +show the cartridges? + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, compare that with 510. + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Is that about the way it looked? + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; that is right. It sure is. + +Mr. BALL. Now, were the boxes, as you saw them, on the extreme left +side of the window, the middle of the window, or the right side. + +Mr. MOONEY. Well, they were further over to the left of the window than +over to the right. More or less as they are in there in that picture. + +Mr. BALL. In 509? + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, the boxes are in about the right position with reference +to---- + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; because I had room enough to stand right here, +and lean out this window, without disturbing the boxes. + +Mr. BALL. You could stand on the right of the boxes? + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And put your head out the window? + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. If I recall, I put my hand on the outside of this +ledge. + +Mr. BALL. And put your head out the window? + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Was the window open when you got there? + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. If you stood to the left of the boxes, could you have looked +out the window? + +Mr. MOONEY. I don't believe I could, without disturbing them. Possibly +I might have, could have, but I just didn't try it. + +Mr. BALL. Now, I show you Exhibit 513. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 513, for +identification.) + +Mr. BALL. This is another view of that window. + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see it from that angle? + +Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; I never did. + +Mr. BALL. You don't think you have ever seen it---- + +Mr. MOONEY. From that angle. + +Mr. BALL. Does that show any place where you saw the chicken bone? + +Mr. MOONEY. If I recall correctly, the chicken bone could have been +laying on this box or it might have been laying on this box right here. + +Mr. BALL. Make a couple of marks there to indicate where possibly the +chicken bone was lying. + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Make two "X's". You think there was a chicken bone on the top +of either one of those two? + +Mr. MOONEY. There was one of them partially eaten. And there was a +little small paper poke. + +Mr. BALL. By poke, you mean a paper sack? + +Mr. MOONEY. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Where was that? + +Mr. MOONEY. Saw the chicken bone was laying here. The poke was laying +about a foot away from it. + +Mr. BALL. On the same carton? + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. In close relation to each other. But as to what +was in the sack--it was kind of together, and I didn't open it. I +didn't put my hands on it to open it. I only saw one piece of chicken. + +Senator COOPER. How far was the chicken, the piece of chicken you saw, +and the paper bag from the boxes near the window, and particularly the +box that had the crease in it? + +Mr. MOONEY. I would say they might have been 5 feet or something like +that. He wouldn't have had to leave the location. He could just maybe +take one step and lay it over there, if he was the one that put it +there. + +Senator COOPER. You mean if someone had been standing near the box with +the crease in it? + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. It would have been that approximate distance to the +chicken leg and paper bag? + +Mr. MOONEY. Sir? + +Senator COOPER. And the paper bag you spoke of? + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; they were in close relation to each other, yes, +sir. + +Mr. BALL. How big a bag was it? + +Mr. MOONEY. Well, as to the number--these bags are numbered, I +understand. But it was--I don't know what the number you would call it, +but it didn't stand more than that high. + +Mr. BALL. About 12 inches? + +Mr. MOONEY. About 8 to 10 inches, at the most. + +Mr. BALL. What color was the bag? + +Mr. MOONEY. It was brown. Just a regular paper bag. Just as a grocery +store uses for their produce and what-have-you. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see any soda pop? + +Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see a paper bag at any other window? + +Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Any other chicken bones? + +Mr. MOONEY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see a Dr. Pepper bottle any place? + +Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; except in the picture. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't see it? + +Mr. MOONEY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. When you say you have seen the picture, I will show you the +picture, and let me see if that is the one you mean you have seen. That +is Commission 484. This picture has been shown to you, hasn't it? + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I showed you that. + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And you did not see that two-wheel truck? + +Mr. MOONEY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You did not see the Dr. Pepper bottle? + +Mr. MOONEY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't see a paper sack anywhere near a two-wheel truck +or a Dr. Pepper bottle? + +Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; in my running around up there, I didn't observe +it. Possibly it was there. I am sure it was. But I didn't check it. + +Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there? + +Mr. MOONEY. Sir? + +Mr. BALL. How long did you stay up on the sixth floor? After you found +the location of the three cartridges? + +Mr. MOONEY. Well, I stayed up there not over 15 or 20 minutes +longer--after Captain Will Fritz and his officers came over there, +Captain Fritz picked up the cartridges, began to examine them, of +course I left that particular area. By that time there was a number of +officers up there. The floor was covered with officers, And we were +searching, trying to find the weapon at that time. + +Mr. BALL. Were you there when it was found? + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. I was searching under these books and between +them and up on the ledges and the joists, we was just looking +everywhere. And I was about 10 or 15 steps at the most from Officer +Boone when he hollered, "Here is the gun." + +Mr. BALL. Did you go over there? + +Mr. MOONEY. I stepped over there. + +Mr. BALL. What did you see? + +Mr. MOONEY. I had to look twice before I actually saw the gun laying +in there. I had to get around to the right angle before I could see +it. And there the gun lay, stuck between these cartons in an upright +position. The scope was up. + +Mr. BALL. Well, now, I will show you a picture, 514. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 514, for +identification.) + +Senator COOPER. May I ask--did you change the position of the shells +which you have identified? + +Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; I didn't have my hands on them. + +Senator COOPER. Or the bag, or chicken leg? + +Mr. MOONEY. No, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Until--before the chief came? + +Mr. MOONEY. Captain Will Fritz; yes, sir; he is the chief. + +Senator COOPER. Was there any odor in the area when you first got there? + +Mr. MOONEY. I didn't particularly notice any. Now, there could have +been a slight powder odor there. + +(At this point, Mr. Warren entered the hearing room.) + +Senator COOPER. Did you smell any powder? + +Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; not to my knowledge. Of course it was musty odor, +with all those cartons and books there. + +Mr. BALL. Do you see the picture which is 514? Does it look like +anything like that? + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; with the exception there was more cartons around +it than that. In other words, the way it looked to me, when I walked +over there--of course these may have been disturbed at a later date. + +Mr. BALL. It looks like there are more cartons? + +Mr. MOONEY. No; there is less cartons around it right now. Of course +that is looking straight down. Now, there are some more boxes here. + +Mr. BALL. I show you a picture which we will mark as 515. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 515 for +identification.) + +Mr. MOONEY. But that is in the position the gun was laying. + +Mr. BALL. That is about the position of the gun? + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, here is a picture of that marked stairway. Can you +orient yourself from that picture? + +Mr. MOONEY. Let's see. Here is the staircase right in here. If I +remember right, the gun was either in this crack or this one here. I +don't remember which. + +Mr. BALL. Does that show you about the number of cartons around? + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; that is the way it looked; sure did. Because I +had to stand up back here, before I could see over off in there. + +Mr. BALL. And when you did look down there between the cartons, was the +gun---- + +Mr. MOONEY. It was sitting in that position. The scope was up. + +Mr. BALL. As shown in 514? + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. That is the way it was laying, in that position. + +Senator COOPER. It was lying on the floor? + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. With the scope on the upper side? + +Mr. MOONEY. The scope in upright position. The stock was back to the +east. In other words, the gun was pointed west. + +Mr. BALL. Did a photographer come up and take pictures when you were +there? + +Mr. MOONEY. There was a number of photographers up there shooting +pictures. Who they were or who they represented--I assume it was the +press. + +Mr. BALL. How long were they there? + +Mr. MOONEY. They were there when all these officers and everybody was +up there. + +Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. + +Senator COOPER. How far was it from the place where the gun was found, +from where you first saw the rifle, to the window? + +Mr. MOONEY. You mean how far was it from the gun to the window? + +Senator COOPER. Yes; where you saw the shells. + +Mr. MOONEY. Well, it was clear across the entire sixth floor, +thereabouts. In other words, if you take the location from where the +shells were found, they were in the southeast corner. And this was in +the far northwest corner. Just right there at the staircase. + +And the distance across there, I just don't know how far it is, but it +is quite a large warehouse floor. + +Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. I would like to offer the +exhibits up to 515, inclusive. May this witness be excused? + +The CHAIRMAN. Any questions, Senator Cooper? + +Senator COOPER. As you examined these exhibits, you gave your best +judgment, your recollection of the location of the boxes and the shells. + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. The way I remember, sir, is---- + +Senator COOPER. The chicken and the paper bag? + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. I do remember that the one box was tilted off, +laying partially over on the legs. + +Senator COOPER. That was the box which you said you observed a crease +in? + +Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. Just very slight, very slight. + +Senator COOPER. Is that the box which was the top box? + +Mr. MOONEY. The way I remember, the two boxes and the third one was +the one tilted off. It looked like it possibly could have been knocked +off from a movement, because it wasn't naturally placed that way by +hand for any purpose, because it wouldn't have had any purpose, to my +knowledge. + +Senator COOPER. Let the exhibits which have been offered be admitted in +evidence. + +(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission +Exhibits Nos. 508 through 515, were received in evidence.) + +Mr. MOONEY. In other words, if you just run against it, you would have +knocked it off. + +The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much for coming, sir. You have been very +helpful. + +Mr. BALL. Our next witness is Deputy Sheriff Boone. + + +TESTIMONY OF EUGENE BOONE + +The CHAIRMAN. Sit right down, Mr. Boone. + +Senator COOPER. The purpose of this hearing is to hear the testimony +of M. L. Baker, Mrs. R. A. Reid, Eugene Boone, Luke Mooney, and M. +N. McDonald. Officer Baker and Mrs. Reid were in the vicinity of the +Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination. +Deputy Sheriffs Boone and Mooney assisted in the search of the sixth +floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building shortly after the +assassination, and Officer McDonald apprehended Lee Harvey Oswald at +the Texas theatre. + +Will you be sworn? Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to +give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so +help you God? + +Mr. BOONE. I do. + +Senator COOPER. You understand the purpose of this inquiry? + +Mr. BOONE. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. You have come here voluntarily to testify? + +Mr. BOONE. Yes. + +Senator COOPER. Do you have a counsel with you? + +Mr. BOONE. No. + +Senator COOPER. Do you desire one? + +Mr. BOONE. No. + +Mr. BALL. What is your business? + +Mr. BOONE. I am a deputy sheriff in or for the county of Dallas. + +Mr. BALL. How long have you been a deputy sheriff? + +Mr. BOONE. A year and a half. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you born? + +Mr. BOONE. Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. BALL. Go to school there? + +Mr. BOONE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How far through school did you go? + +Mr. BOONE. High school. + +Mr. BALL. In Dallas? + +Mr. BOONE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do after you got out of school? + +Mr. BOONE. I was working with the Dallas Times Herald Newspaper there, +in the advertising department. + +Mr. BALL. How long did you work there? + +Mr. BOONE. Well, I worked there part time when I was going to school, +up until the time I quit, 8 years. + +Mr. BALL. Is that the time you went with the sheriff's office? + +Mr. BOONE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How old are you? + +Mr. BOONE. Twenty-six. + +Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November, where were you working? + +Mr. BOONE. I was working downtown. I was out viewing the parade. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you view the parade? + +Mr. BOONE. Right in front of the sheriff's office. + +Mr. BALL. Had you been assigned a place, a job that day? + +Mr. BOONE. No. + +Mr. BALL. You were out in front of the sheriff's office on Main Street? + +Mr. BOONE. That is correct. + +Mr. BALL. Near Houston? + +Mr. BOONE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And who were you with? + +Mr. BOONE. Officer Mooney was out there, I believe, and several of the +office personnel, women in the office, clerk-typist and what-have-you. +Ralph Walters, Buddy Walthers, Allen Sweatt, L. C. Smith. Officer +Gramstaff. That is about all I can remember. + +Mr. BALL. What happened there? + +Mr. BOONE. Well, it was approximately 1 o'clock when we heard the +shots. The motorcade had already passed by us and turned back to the +north on Houston Street. And we heard what we thought to be a shot. +And there seemed to be a pause between the first shot and the second +shot and third shots--a little longer pause. And we raced across the +street there. + +Mr. BALL. You raced across what street? + +Mr. BOONE. Houston Street. + +Mr. BALL. You turned to your right and went west? + +Mr. BOONE. Well, there is a big cement works out there. We went on west +across Houston Street, and then cut across the grass out there behind +the large cement works there. Some of the bystanders over there seemed +to think the shots came from up over the railroad in the freight yards, +from over the triple underpass. + +So there was some city officer, I don't know who he was, motorcycle +officer had laid his motorcycle down and was running up the embankment +to get over a little retaining wall that separates the freight yards +there. He went over the wall first, and I was right behind him, going +into the freight yards. We searched out the freight yards. We were +unable to find anything. + +Mr. BALL. A good many officers over there searching? + +Mr. BOONE. Yes; there were. Most all of the officers--well, all of the +officers in front of the sheriff's office there. There were others that +I don't recall. There were other officers in the area. Also, they all +ran in that general direction, over around the depository and also down +into the freight yards. + +Mr. BALL. Any railroad employees around there? + +Mr. BOONE. There was one colored boy way on back down in the freight +yards. He had been working on one of the pullmans down there. + +Mr. BALL. And didn't you talk to somebody that was also in a tower? + +Mr. BOONE. Yes; I did. + +Mr. BALL. A man named Bowers? + +Mr. BOONE. I don't know what his name was. He was up in the tower and +I hollered up there to see if he had seen anybody running out there in +the freight yards, or heard any shots. And he said he didn't hear any +shots, and he hadn't seen anybody racing around out there in the yard. + +Mr. BALL. That was a railroad tower? + +Mr. BOONE. Yes; it is situated between the tracks and the school book +depository. Almost directly west of the building. + +Mr. BALL. After that, what did you do? + +Mr. BOONE. Well, I finally went around and was talking to some of the +spectators that were in the area there, located a boy by the name of +Betzer. He had taken what he thought was some photographs, or there +were photographs--he thought he might have had a portion of the +building. + +Later on we were able to ascertain that the shots had come from the +building, from that southeast corner over there. And he had some +photographs, but they didn't extend past the second floor on the +building. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go up into the building then? + +Mr. BOONE. I took him on over to the sheriff's office, and placed him +in the sheriff's office, took his camera, to bring it back to the ID +Bureau to be developed. Placed him in the sheriff's office at that time +to await somebody to take a statement from him. + +Then some other officers, Ralph Walters and Officer Gramstaff, and I +don't know whether--I don't remember Officer Mooney was with them or +not at that time--they headed back to get some heavy power flashlights. +They said they wanted to look around in the attic. And there were a +bunch of pallets, that they moved the books around, and it was dark and +they couldn't see. So we got the lights and went over to the building. + +At that time, we proceeded directly to the sixth floor. + +Mr. BALL. Somebody tell you to go to the sixth floor? + +Mr. BOONE. Well, that is just where everybody was going. And they said +five floors below that--I believe Inspector Sawyer with the city was +out there, and he said the other floors were in the process of being +searched or had been already searched. This was after Officer Mooney +found the shells. + +Mr. BALL. Did somebody tell you Officer Mooney had found some shells? + +Mr. BOONE. Not him in particular. They said the shells had been found +on the sixth floor. At that time, I didn't know he had found them. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do after you got up to the sixth floor? + +Mr. BOONE. Well, I proceeded to the east end of the building, I +guess, and started working our way across the building to the west +wall, looking in, under, and around all the boxes and pallets, and +what-have-you that were on the floor. Looking for the weapon. And as I +got to the west wall, there were a row of windows there, and a slight +space between some boxes and the wall. I squeezed through them. + +When I did--I had my light in my hand. I was slinging it around on the +floor, and I caught a glimpse of the rifle, stuffed down between two +rows of boxes with another box or so pulled over the top of it. And I +hollered that the rifle was here. + +Mr. BALL. What happened then? + +Mr. BOONE. Some of the other officers came over to look at it. I told +them to stand back, not to get around close, they might want to take +prints of some of the boxes, and not touch the rifle. And at that time +Captain Fritz and an ID man came over. I believe the ID man's name +was Lieutenant Day--I am not sure. They came over and the weapon was +photographed as it lay. And at that time Captain Fritz picked it up by +the strap, and it was removed from the place where it was. + +Mr. BALL. You saw them take the photograph? + +Mr. BOONE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Were you alone at that time? + +Mr. BOONE. There was an Officer Weitzman, I believe. He is a deputy +constable. + +Mr. BALL. Where was the rifle located on the floor, general location? + +Mr. BOONE. Well, it was almost--the stairwell is in the corner of the +building, something like this, and there is a wall coming up here, +making one side of the stairwell with the building acting as the other +two sides. And from that, it was almost directly in front or about 3 +feet south, I guess, it would be, from that partition wall that made up +the stairwell. + +Mr. BALL. The rifle was about 3 feet from the---- + +Mr. BOONE. Yes, sir; behind a row of boxes. There was a row of boxes +that came across there. Then the rifle was behind that first row of +boxes. + +Mr. BALL. I show you 514. Is that the way it looked when you saw it? + +Mr. BOONE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Is that the way it was when the picture was taken? + +Mr. BOONE. Yes; I believe so. + +Mr. BALL. This shows the rifle as you saw it, does it? + +Mr. BOONE. That is right. Then you could kneel down over here and +see that it had a scope, a telescopic sight on it, by looking down +underneath the boxes. + +Mr. BALL. Now, I show you 515. Does that look anything like the area +where you found the rifle? + +Mr. BOONE. Yes; it did. + +Mr. BALL. Will you put that down on the table so that everyone can see +where it is, and show us where the rifle was with reference to the +stairwell? + +Mr. BOONE. This is that retaining wall here that I was talking about +here. Now, the rifle was right down in this area right here, almost +directly. This is the west end of the building here, this being the +north side, as I recall. + +Mr. BALL. That is the northwest corner? + +Mr. BOONE. Yes. And it is about 3 feet from the edge--you cannot see +the edge of it because it is behind this. + +Mr. BALL. The edge of what? + +Mr. BOONE. The stairwell wall here. It is about 3 feet from where this +partition ends over to--back behind these cases of books here. + +Mr. BALL. Can you mark with an arrow there the exact space between the +boxes where you found the rifle as shown on this exhibit, which is 514? + +Mr. BOONE. What do you mean--the exact space? It was in this space +right in here, like this. + +Mr. BALL. The arrow marks the space. + +Mr. BOONE. I had come around these boxes here, next to the windows over +here, and that is when I saw it, looking down across this way. + +Mr. BALL. You came along the west wall, near the windows shown in this +picture 514? + +Mr. BOONE. That is correct. + +Mr. BALL. And when you looked in the direction that would be easterly, +that is when you saw the rifle? + +Mr. BOONE. Northeasterly. + +Mr. BALL. Here is another picture which we will mark as 516. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 516 for +identification.) + +Mr. BALL. Now, 515 contains the arrow which shows the space between +boxes where you found the rifle, is that right? + +Mr. BOONE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Now, I show you an exhibit marked 516. Does that show--what +corner of the building does that show? Or do you recognize it? + +Mr. BOONE. It appears to be the same general location here. + +Mr. BALL. Show---- + +Mr. BOONE. This is the stairwell back here in the corner. If I am not +mistaken, there is a freight elevator over here. + +Mr. BALL. That would be the right of the picture? + +Mr. BOONE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Now, point to the boxes where you found the rifle. + +Mr. BOONE. Right down in this general direction. + +Mr. BALL. Draw another arrow. I show you Exhibit 483, a diagram of +the sixth floor. Now, by referring to these numbers, can you show us +approximately where the rifle was found? + +Mr. BOONE. Roughly in the area here, designated by the arrow No. 35. + +Mr. BALL. The diagram on the sixth floor, as the Commission knows, has +been correlated with certain pictures. I now have Commission Exhibit +517 marked, which has the figure 35 on it, which corresponds to the +position of the camera at the time the picture was taken. + +In other words, at about point 35 on this map. And now I show you a +photograph marked 517. Is that about the way the rifle looked when you +first saw it? + +Mr. BOONE. Yes; it is. There was some newsman up there right behind +Officer Whitman and myself who took movie film of it, too. I don't know +his name. + +Mr. BALL. What time was it? + +Mr. BOONE. 1:22 p.m., in the afternoon. + +Mr. BALL. 1:22? + +Mr. BOONE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. You looked at your watch? + +Mr. BOONE. That is correct. + +Mr. BALL. And made a note of it? + +Mr. BOONE. Yes; I did. + +Mr. BALL. I show you a rifle which is Commission Exhibit 139. Can you +tell us whether or not that looks like the rifle you saw on the floor +that day? + +Mr. BOONE. It looks like the same rifle. I have no way of being +positive. + +Mr. BALL. You never handled it? + +Mr. BOONE. I did not touch the weapon at all. + +Mr. BALL. I would like to offer all the exhibits we have offered with +this witness, which is 515 to 516 and 517, into evidence. + +Senator COOPER. Let the exhibits be admitted in evidence. + +(The documents referred to marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 515, 516, +and 517 were received in evidence.) + +Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. + +The CHAIRMAN. I think you said that the reason you didn't touch it was +because of the danger of fingerprints on there, is that right? + +Mr. BOONE. That is correct. The city officers had personnel in charge +up there. Captain Fritz, I believe, was in charge, senior officer on +the floor. + +He was called to the location as soon as I found the rifle. He came +over, and it was photographed then. + +Senator COOPER. Did you notice whether the rifle that you discovered +had a telescopic sight? + +Mr. BOONE. Yes, it did. + +Senator COOPER. Did it have a sling? + +Mr. BOONE. Yes, it did. Because Captain Fritz picked it up by the sling +when he removed it from its resting place. + +Senator COOPER. Looking at Exhibit 483, which represents the floor plan +of the sixth floor, you have marked on there the place where you found +the rifle. Is that near the stairwell? + +Mr. BOONE. Yes, sir; this is the stairwell right here in the northeast +corner. + +Senator COOPER. Also near the elevators? + +Mr. BOONE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Pardon me, Senator Cooper, I think you said northeast. + +Mr. BOONE. Northwest--I beg your pardon. + +Senator COOPER. Do you remember whether Officer Mooney came up after +you found the rifle? + +Mr. BOONE. I don't recall. There were officers, both city and county +officers, and constables officers up in the area on the floor. Now, +whether he was among the crowd there, I do not know. + +Senator COOPER. When you climbed over the retaining wall at the +railroad yard, can you describe what the situation in the railroad yard +was at that time? Were there railroad cars in the area? + +Mr. BOONE. There were four railroad cars down approximately 100 yards +from the retaining wall, right over the Elm Street tunnel, or portion +of the triple underpass. Then there were some people down to the south +of the triple underpass which had viewed the parade, or were viewing +the parade--I don't know. The city officer went back south, as I +recall, and I went off to the north, northwest. + +Senator COOPER. Thank you. + +The CHAIRMAN. Sheriff, thank you very much. + +Mr. BALL. There is one question. Did you hear anybody refer to this +rifle as a Mauser that day? + +Mr. BOONE. Yes, I did. And at first, not knowing what it was, I thought +it was 7.65 Mauser. + +Mr. BALL. Who referred to it as a Mauser that day? + +Mr. BOONE. I believe Captain Fritz. He had knelt down there to look at +it, and before he removed it, not knowing what it was, he said that is +what it looks like. This is when Lieutenant Day, I believe his name is, +the ID man was getting ready to photograph it. + +We were just discussing it back and forth. And he said it looks like a +7.65 Mauser. + +Mr. BALL. Thank you. + +The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Sheriff. You have been very helpful. + +Mr. BALL. Call Officer McDonald. + + +TESTIMONY OF M. N. McDONALD + +Senator COOPER. Will you stand up and be sworn? Do you swear that +the testimony you shall give will be the truth, the whole truth, and +nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. McDONALD. I do. + +Senator COOPER. You understand that the purpose of this inquiry is to +inquire into the circumstances surrounding the assassination of the +late President Kennedy? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; I do. + +Senator COOPER. Today's hearings are to hear testimony of various +witnesses, including yourself, who were in the vicinity of the Texas +School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination, and +because it is reported you apprehended Lee Harvey Oswald in the Texas +theatre. + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Do you testify here voluntarily? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Do you have counsel with you? + +Mr. McDONALD. No, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Do you desire counsel? + +Mr. McDONALD. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Mr. McDonald, where do you live? + +Mr. McDONALD. 530 South Port Drive. + +Mr. BALL. In Dallas? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you born? + +Mr. McDONALD. Camden, Ark. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go to school in Arkansas? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How far through school did you go? + +Mr. McDONALD. Well, I finished through the 11th grade, took an +equivalent for a high school diploma, and I attended 1 year at Arkansas +State Teachers College in Conway. + +Mr. BALL. What year was that? + +Mr. McDONALD. 1948 and 1949. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do after that? + +Mr. McDONALD. Well, worked in a printing firm for awhile, after getting +out of college a year. Then I joined the Air Force. But in a break +between high school and college, I entered the Navy, in January 1946. I +served 22 months in the Navy, active duty. + +Mr. BALL. Then you say in the 1950's you joined the Air Force? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; December 29, 1950. + +Mr. BALL. How long were you in the Air Force? + +Mr. McDONALD. Four years. + +Mr. BALL. What work did you do in the Air Force? + +Mr. McDONALD. I was a supply sergeant. + +Mr. BALL. After that, what did you do? + +Mr. McDONALD. I became a policeman in the Dallas Police Department. + +Mr. BALL. That was in 1956? + +Mr. McDONALD. March 3, 1955. + +Mr. BALL. And you have been a police officer ever since? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Were you on duty on March--November 22, 1963? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What was your job that day? + +Mr. McDONALD. Radio patrol. + +Mr. BALL. What were your hours of duty? + +Mr. McDONALD. From 7:30 a.m. to 3:30 p.m. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ride alone or have a partner? + +Mr. McDONALD. No, sir; I had a partner. + +Mr. BALL. What is his name? + +Mr. McDONALD. T. R. Gregory. + +Mr. BALL. Were you cruising about 12:30 that day? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. In what area? + +Mr. McDONALD. On the Westmoreland Avenue and Falls Drive intersection. + +Mr. BALL. Was your area, an area close to downtown Dallas or outside? + +Mr. McDONALD. Outside, approximately 8 miles. + +Mr. BALL. Did you get an order over the radio about that time to move +your car? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What was the order? + +Mr. McDONALD. Report to the vicinity of Elm and Houston Streets, code 3. + +Mr. BALL. And did you know Officer Tippit? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Was he also a radio patrol officer? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; he was. + +Mr. BALL. Did he cruise alone or with a partner? + +Mr. McDONALD. He was cruising alone. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know what his area--the area assigned to him on that +day? + +Mr. McDONALD. The southern part of Oak Cliff, nearing the city limits. + +Mr. BALL. Was that farther out from the center of town than you? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; approximately 10 to 12 miles. + +Mr. BALL. Did Tippit usually cruise alone, or did he ever have a +partner sometimes? + +Mr. McDONALD. Well, working in the daylight hours, which we were +assigned that month, it is a custom to work alone--unless he had a +trainee, such as I. I don't believe he was a trainer. + +Mr. BALL. In other words, you had a trainee with you, and that is the +reason you were not alone? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear an order over the radio for cars in the outlying +district near the city limits, what they were to do? + +Mr. McDONALD. They were to move in closer to the downtown area, but not +directly to the area. + +Mr. BALL. You were ordered to move into the downtown area? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And the cars that were cruising farther out were ordered to +move closer to the downtown area? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear any other specific orders over the radio that +day--that morning, or about 12:30, 1 o'clock? + +Mr. McDONALD. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do after you received those orders? + +Mr. McDONALD. I applied my red lights and sirens, and went code 32, Elm +and Houston Streets. + +Mr. BALL. About what time did you get there? + +Mr. McDONALD. Approximately 10 minutes later. + +Mr. BALL. What time would that be? + +Mr. McDONALD. Approximately 12:40. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you park your car? + +Mr. McDONALD. On the right curb, Elm Street, before you enter the +triple underpass. + +Mr. BALL. And how long did you stay there? + +Mr. McDONALD. Approximately 35 minutes. + +Mr. BALL. What were you doing there? + +Mr. McDONALD. Well, after I left the car, my partner and I reported to +a supervisor, and he directed us to patrol the crowd and move the crowd +around Elm Street, and rope off the area. + +Mr. BALL. Now, was your radio on? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. There were several police units around the +intersection, and all the radios were on. And after I had moved the +crowd around, went back to the entrance of the Texas School Book +Depository, I heard this over the police radio, of--the first thing I +heard was that President Kennedy had expired at Parkland Hospital. + +And the next thing I heard was a voice over the radio that was not +familiar to police procedure. He was saying that an officer had been +shot, and that he was using car No. 10 radio. Of my own knowledge, +I knew that car was driven by Officer Tippit, and that that car was +assigned to his district. + +Mr. BALL. Did he give you a location? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; 400 block of East 10th Street. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do? + +Mr. McDONALD. I told my partner we were not doing much good here, to go +to Oak Cliff, and see if we could help out over there, try to apprehend +the person that shot Tippit. + +Mr. BALL. Did you? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go in Oak Cliff? + +Mr. McDONALD. Well, we got in the car and went underneath the triple +underpass and got on the Stemmons Expressway, which leads into the R. +L. Thornton Expressway. I believe we took the Jefferson exit and drove +up to the 400 block of East Jefferson. + +Mr. BALL. Patton is about a block to the north of Jefferson? + +Mr. McDONALD. Patton runs across Jefferson. Tenth and Patton. + +Mr. BALL. Patton runs north and south? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Tenth Street is a block north of Jefferson? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How did you happen to go to the 400 block on Jefferson? + +Mr. McDONALD. I was stopped by other officers there. They wanted to +search a house. So I relieved my partner to go to help the supervisors +search this house, in the 400 block of East Jefferson. Then I went +around to the alleys, and started cruising the alley in my squad car. + +Mr. BALL. And did you get a call over your radio to go to a certain +place? + +Mr. McDONALD. Well, there was a report from the dispatcher that a +suspect was seen running into the public library at Marsalis and +Jefferson. + +Mr. BALL. You went down there? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. I went directly to Denver Street, which is an +alley at that point. It is still designated as Denver Street. I parked +the squad car, took my shotgun, and went to the west basement entrance +to the public library, and ordered the people in the basement, in the +library outside. They came out with their hands up. + +The boy immediately said that he had just run into the library to tell +the people that the President had been shot. He was a much younger +person than what was broadcast on description on the radio. + +Mr. BALL. You had heard a broadcast? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Of a description, of someone to look for? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did you hear? + +Mr. McDONALD. White male, approximately 27 years old, 5 foot 10, weight +about 145 pounds, wearing light clothing. + +Mr. BALL. When did you hear that? About what time? + +Mr. McDONALD. It came out on the radio as I was coming to Oak Cliff. +There was another general description given on the way to the Texas +School Book Depository at Elm and Houston Streets. But it was a vague +description. + +Mr. BALL. The first description that you heard of a man to look for was +on the way downtown to the Texas School Book Depository? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What was that description? + +Mr. McDONALD. White male, approximately 27, 29 years old, and he had a +white shirt on, weighed about 160 pounds. + +Mr. BALL. And that was about 12:40 you got that? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, this later description you got was what point in your +travel to Oak Cliff? + +Mr. McDONALD. This was approximately 1:20, or 1:17. + +Mr. BALL. That was after you had heard that Tippit--that the officer +had been shot? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And what was that description? + +Mr. McDONALD. Well, it was 5 foot 10, white male, 27 years old, wearing +a white shirt. + +Mr. BALL. Now, as you were cruising the alleys, you had gone into +the library basement, and gone to cruising the alleys, did you hear +something else over the radio that drew your attention to another +part---- + +Mr. McDONALD. Just to report to the public library. + +Mr. BALL. After that. Did you receive a report? + +Mr. McDONALD. After I was satisfied that this teenager that had run +into the library didn't fit the description, I went back to my squad +car, put my shotgun back in the rack. Just as I got into the squad car, +it was reported that a suspect was seen running into the Texas Theatre, +231 West Jefferson. + +So I reported to that location Code 3. This is approximately seven +blocks from the library, seven blocks west. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go down there with your partner? + +Mr. McDONALD. No, sir; I had let my partner out on arrival; my first +arrival in the 400 block. + +Mr. BALL. He was on foot? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; I didn't see him any more that day. + +Mr. BALL. You went down to the Texas Theatre? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And that is what address? + +Mr. McDONALD. 231 West Jefferson. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do? + +Mr. McDONALD. Well, when I got to the front of the theater there was +several police cars already at the scene, and I surmised that officers +were already inside the theater. + +So I decided to go to the rear, in the alley, and seal off the rear. I +parked my squad car. I noticed there were three or four other officers +standing outside with shotguns guarding the rear exits. There were +three other officers at the rear door. I joined them. We walked into +the rear exit door over the alley. + +Mr. BALL. What were their names? + +Mr. McDONALD. Officer Hawkins, T. A. Hutson, and C. T. Walker. And +as we got inside the door, we were met by a man that was in civilian +clothes, a suit, and he told us that the man that acted suspiciously as +he ran into the theater was sitting downstairs in the orchestra seats, +and not in the balcony. He was sitting at the rear of the theater alone. + +Officer Walker and I went to the exit curtains that is to the left of +the movie screen. I looked into the audience. I saw the person that the +shoe store salesman had pointed out to us. + +Mr. BALL. Were the lights on or off? + +Mr. McDONALD. The lights were up, and the movie was playing at this +time. + +Mr. BALL. And could you see to the rear of the theater? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You could see the man. Did the civilian point out to you the +man in one of the rear seats? + +Mr. McDONALD. He didn't point out personally. He was pointing out the +suspect to another officer with him on the right of the stage, just +right of the movie screen. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do then? + +Mr. McDONALD. Well, after seeing him, I noticed the other people in +the theater--there was approximately 10 or 15 other people seated +throughout the theater. There were two men sitting in the center, about +10 rows from the front. + +I walked up the left center aisle into the row behind these two men, +and Officer C. T. Walker was behind me. When I got to these two men, +I told them to get on their feet. They got up. I searched them for a +weapon. + +I looked over my shoulder and the suspect that had been pointed out to +me. He remained seated without moving, just looking at me. + +Mr. BALL. Why did you frisk these two men in the center of the theater? + +Mr. McDONALD. I wanted to make sure that I didn't pass anything or miss +anybody. I wanted to make sure I didn't overlook anybody or anything. + +Mr. BALL. And you still kept your eye on the suspect? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. He was to my back. I was looking over my +shoulder at him. + +Mr. BALL. Was he sitting nearest the right or the left aisle as you +came in? + +Mr. McDONALD. The right center aisle. He was in the second seat. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do then? + +Mr. McDONALD. After I was satisfied that these two men were not armed +or had a weapon on them, I walked out of this row, up to the right +center aisle toward the suspect. And as I walked up there, just at a +normal gait, I didn't look directly at him, but I kept my eye on him +and any other persons. And to my left was another man and I believe a +woman was with him. But he was further back than the suspect. + +And just as I got to the row where the suspect was sitting, I stopped +abruptly, and turned in and told him to get on his feet. He rose +immediately, bringing up both hands. He got this hand about shoulder +high, his left hand shoulder high, and he got his right hand about +breast high. He said, "Well, it is all over now." + +As he said this, I put my left hand on his waist and then his hand went +to the waist. And this hand struck me between the eyes on the bridge of +the nose. + +Mr. BALL. Did he cock his fist? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; knocking my cap off. + +Mr. BALL. Which fist did he hit you with? + +Mr. McDONALD. His left fist. + +Mr. BALL. What happened then? + +Mr. McDONALD. Well, whenever he knocked my hat off, any normal reaction +was for me to go at him with this hand. + +Mr. BALL. Right hand? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes. I went at him with this hand, and I believe I struck +him on the face, but I don't know where. And with my hand, that was on +his hand over the pistol. + +Mr. BALL. Did you feel the pistol? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Which hand was--was his right hand or his left hand on the +pistol? + +Mr. McDONALD. His right hand was on the pistol. + +Mr. BALL. And which of your hands? + +Mr. McDONALD. My left hand, at this point. + +Mr. BALL. And had he withdrawn the pistol---- + +Mr. McDONALD. He was drawing it as I put my hand. + +Mr. BALL. From his waist? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What happened then? + +Mr. McDONALD. Well, whenever I hit him, we both fell into the seats. +While we were struggling around there, with this hand on the gun---- + +Mr. BALL. Your left hand? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. Somehow I managed to get this hand in the +action also. + +Mr. BALL. Your right hand? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. Now, as we fell into the seats, I called out, +"I have got him," and Officer T. A. Hutson, he came to the row behind +us and grabbed Oswald around the neck. And then Officer C. T. Walker +came into the row that we were in and grabbed his left arm. And Officer +Ray Hawkins came to the row in front of us and grabbed him from the +front. + +By the time all three of these officers had got there, I had gotten my +right hand on the butt of the pistol and jerked it free. + +Mr. BALL. Had you felt any movement of the hammer? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. When this hand--we went down into the seats. + +Mr. BALL. When your left hand went into the seats, what happened? + +Mr. McDONALD. It felt like something had grazed across my hand. I felt +movement there. And that was the only movement I felt. And I heard a +snap. I didn't know what it was at the time. + +Mr. BALL. Was the pistol out of his waist at that time? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know any way it was pointed? + +Mr. McDONALD. Well, I believe the muzzle was toward me, because the +sensation came across this way. To make a movement like that, it would +have to be the cylinder or the hammer. + +Mr. BALL. Across your left palm? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. And my hand was directly over the pistol in +this manner. More or less the butt. But not on the butt. + +Mr. BALL. What happened when you jerked the pistol free? + +Mr. McDONALD. When I jerked it free, I was down in the seats with +him, with my head, some reason or other, I don't know why, and when I +brought the pistol out, it grazed me across the cheek here, and I put +it all the way out to the aisle, holding it by the butt. I gave the +pistol to Detective Bob Carroll at that point. + +Mr. BALL. Grazed your left cheek? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Scratched--noticeable scratch? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; about a 4-inch scratch just above the eye to +just above the lip. + +Mr. BALL. Then what happened after that? + +Mr. McDONALD. Well, the officers that had come to my aid started +handcuffing him and taking him out of the theater. + +Mr. BALL. What did he say--anything? + +Mr. McDONALD. Well, he was cursing a little bit and hollering police +brutality, for one thing. + +Mr. BALL. What words did he use? + +Mr. McDONALD. I couldn't recall the exact words. It was just mixed up +words, people hollering and screaming when they get arrested. + +Mr. BALL. What did he say about police brutality? + +Mr. McDONALD. One thing, "Don't hit me any more." I remember that. + +Mr. BALL. Did somebody hit him? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; I guess they did. + +Mr. BALL. Who hit him, do you know? + +Mr. McDONALD. No, sir; I don't, other than myself. + +Mr. BALL. You know you hit him? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did you go with them outside? + +Mr. McDONALD. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do? + +Mr. McDONALD. I was looking for my hat and flashlight. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go downtown with them? + +Mr. McDONALD. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Later you went downtown? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And did you put a mark on the revolver? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. BALL. And did you look at the ammunition in the revolver, the six +rounds in the cylinder? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you notice anything unusual about any one of them? + +Mr. McDONALD. I noticed on the primer of one of the shells it had an +indentation on it, but not one that had been fired or anything--not +that strong of an indentation. + +Mr. BALL. We have here Exhibit 143 for identification. Do you know +whether or not this is the revolver that you took from the man that you +arrested? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; this is it. I found the mark here. + +Mr. BALL. You found your mark? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. What mark is it? + +Mr. McDONALD. I marked the initial "M". + +Mr. BALL. Where? + +Mr. McDONALD. Right here, on this steel plate. + +Mr. BALL. Of the butt? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Let the record show the witness is pointing to a point on +the steel plate directly below the screw on the butt. + +Mr. BALL. How many cartridges were in the cylinder? + +Mr. McDONALD. Six, fully loaded. + +Mr. BALL. I will show you four that are marked as--we will give these +four an exhibit number. Do you know whether or not they were shells +similar to that? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; they were .38 caliber. Now, I didn't mark all +of these shells, myself. + +Mr. BALL. Did you mark any of them? + +Mr. McDONALD. I recall marking one. + +Mr. BALL. The four cartridges, the witness is examining now we will +mark collectively as Commission Exhibit 518. + +(The articles referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 518 for +identification.) + +Mr. BALL. And there are two cartridges that have been marked as +Commission Exhibit 145 that the witness is also examining. Now, on +one of the cartridges that have come from Commission's Exhibit 145, +consisting of two cartridges, one of these you identify as a cartridge +with a dent in it? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How can you tell this? + +Mr. McDONALD. From the center of this--of the primer there--it is a +small indentation, and some of the metal is blurred or not polished. + +Mr. BALL. And your mark is on one of these cartridges? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I will show you an Exhibit 519. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 519 for +identification.) + +Mr. BALL. Is that a picture of the theatre? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And can you mark on there the seat in which the man was +seated who was the suspect? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Put an arrow down to that seat. Did you see Oswald later that +evening? + +Mr. McDONALD. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him again? + +Mr. McDONALD. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. When you saw Oswald, was he bloody any? + +Mr. McDONALD. Afterwards? + +Mr. BALL. Well, when he was being taken from the theatre. Was he bloody? + +Mr. McDONALD. No, sir; I didn't see any blood. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't? + +Mr. McDONALD. Because whenever they took him, they took him directly +out. + +Mr. BALL. And you never saw him again? + +Mr. McDONALD. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What was he wearing at that time? + +Mr. McDONALD. At the time he was wearing a dark brown shirt and a +T-shirt and dark trousers. + +Mr. BALL. A dark brown shirt, a T-shirt, and dark trousers? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I will show you Commission 150. Does that look anything like +the color of the shirt he was wearing? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I would like to at this time offer all exhibits up to 519 in +evidence. + +Senator COOPER. They will be admitted in evidence. + +(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission +Exhibits Nos. 518 and 519 were received in evidence.) + +Mr. BALL. Did you notice where the pistol was concealed on this man's +person? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. It was under his right waist band, right side. + +Mr. BALL. Was it under the shirt? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; it was underneath the shirt. + +Mr. BALL. Underneath the shirt? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. I would like to correct that, and say it was +underneath the brown shirt that he had on. Not underneath the T-shirt. + +The CHAIRMAN. It was not in a holster? + +Mr. McDONALD. No, sir; no holster at all. + +Mr. BALL. Were--was there an FBI agent there? + +Mr. McDONALD. I don't know, sir. I was told he was there, but I don't +know. + +Mr. BALL. The only people that you saw were---- + +Mr. McDONALD. The ones I named there. + +Mr. BALL. Dallas Police Department men? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. + +Senator COOPER. Who was it that pointed out to you the suspect when you +entered the theatre? + +Mr. McDONALD. I learned his name later. + +Senator COOPER. Did some person there point out to you, though, this +man sitting in the row whom you later arrested? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. He was a shoestore salesman. His name was +Brewer. He was the one that met us at the rear exit door and said that +he saw this person run into the Texas Theatre. + +Senator COOPER. Did you hear him say that? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. And have you seen him since? + +Mr. McDONALD. No, sir. + +Senator COOPER. But somebody has identified him to you? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. We will examine him next week, sir. + +Senator COOPER. May I ask--if the suspect was pointed out to you, why +was it you did not go directly to him, but you searched other persons? + +Mr. McDONALD. Well, usually on information of that sort, you have to +weigh it a little bit to make sure you get the right person. He could +have been mistaken. If a suspect was in that theatre, I wanted to make +sure I got him, and not overlook him. + +Senator COOPER. You said, though, that before you went into the +theatre, where the seats were located, that a man pointed out to you a +person who he claimed was the suspect. + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; he said that that was the man that had acted +suspiciously in running into the theatre. + +Senator COOPER. That was the man that was identified to you? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Then, if he was the man identified to you, why did +you stop and search these two men before you got to the man you later +arrested? + +Mr. McDONALD. Well, I wanted to make sure he was right. + +Senator COOPER. Was it your purpose to search everybody in there? + +Mr. McDONALD. It was my intention--everybody I came to. + +Senator COOPER. Were these the first two that you did search? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; they were the closest ones to me. + +Senator COOPER. They were sitting in front of the man you later +arrested? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; they were sitting about 10 rows in front of him. + +Senator COOPER. At the time you were searching them, you could see the +other man that you later arrested? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. What did he do? + +Mr. McDONALD. Just sat in his seat, with his hands in his lap, watching +me. + +Senator COOPER. Were there any other police officers in his vicinity? + +Mr. McDONALD. There were police officers in the balcony, and police +officers in the aisle, or in the lobby, you might call it--not in the +theatre, except for the other three that I named. + +Senator COOPER. You are the only one in the theatre? + +Mr. McDONALD. Well, there was the other three officers that accompanied +me through the rear exit door. Officer Walker went through the curtains +with me, and Officers Hawkins and Hutson was on the stage with the man +that was identifying the suspect. + +Senator COOPER. Then when you told the man you arrested to stand up did +he immediately pull his pistol out? + +Mr. McDONALD. No, sir; he stood up and started raising his hands, +"Well, it is all over now." But in my opinion, it was an act of giving +up or surrendering. It was just natural that my hand went to his waist +for a weapon, which was my intent anyway, whether he raised his hands +or not. I didn't command him to raise his hands or anything. It was +just a reaction of his. + +Senator COOPER. Did he hit you with the pistol? + +Mr. McDONALD. No, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Did he point it towards you? + +Mr. McDONALD. I don't know what position the gun was pointed out, +whenever my hand was on it, because we were both grappling around +there. But, as I say, the top of my hand was over on top of the pistol. + +Senator COOPER. To whom did you turn over the possession of the pistol? + +Mr. McDONALD. Detective Bob Carroll. He had come into the aisle. +Whenever I hollered, "I got him" immediately I was swarmed by officers. + +Senator COOPER. Did you mark the pistol at that time before you turned +it over? + +Mr. McDONALD. No, sir; I marked it at the police station. + +Senator COOPER. But you recognized it then as the same pistol you had +identified today? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. That is all. + +The CHAIRMAN. Officer, you were in uniform that day? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. Did the blow he gave you on your nose leave any mark? + +Mr. McDONALD. Well, for 2 days I had some swelling. It didn't break the +skin or anything. Some of the force was taken by my top. It hit the +bill of my cap and my nose. + +The CHAIRMAN. And the scratch from the corner of your eye down to the +corner of your mouth came from the pistol? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. As I was taking the pistol away, clearing it +from his body. Yes, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. I think that is all. We are very glad you are able to be +with us today. + +Mr. BALL. There is one thing. + +I have marked an exhibit, 520. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 520 for +identification and received in evidence.) + +Mr. BALL. As he said he had not seen Oswald since, and I know this was +taken--but I would like to ask him one question with reference to 520 +for identification, and we will later provide an identification, proper +identification for it. + +Does that look like the man that you arrested in the Texas Theatre that +day? + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And does it look like--well, of course, he had a shirt over +that T-shirt. + +Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. + +The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, officer. We are glad you were able +to be with us. + +(Whereupon, at 4:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +_Thursday, March 26, 1964_ + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. HELEN MARKHAM, WILLIAM W. SCOGGINS, MRS. JEANETTE +DAVIS, AND TED CALLAWAY + +The President's Commission met at 9:10 a.m. on March 26, 1964, at 200 +Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. + +Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Gerald +R. Ford, and Allen W. Dulles, members. + +Also present were Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel; David W. Belin, +assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Charles Murray, +observer; and Waggoner Carr, attorney general of Texas. + + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. HELEN MARKHAM + +The CHAIRMAN. The purpose of the session of the Commission is for the +purpose of taking testimony on the assassination of President Kennedy, +and it is our information that you have some evidence concerning it and +we want to ask you some questions concerning it. You are willing to +testify, are you? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Do all I can. + +The CHAIRMAN. All right. Will you stand up and be sworn, please? + +Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission +will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help +you God? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I do. + +The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated. + +Mr. Ball will ask you the questions. + +Mr. BALL. Mrs. Markham, what is your address? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. 328 East Ninth. + +Mr. BALL. In Dallas, Tex.? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you born, Mrs. Markham? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Where was I born? Dallas. + +Mr. BALL. The Commission would like to know something of your past life +and experience, where you were born and your education so I will just +ask you a few questions like that. + +Take it easy, this is just---- + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I am very shook up. + +Mr. BALL. This is a very informal little conference here. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, do you want me to tell you about my life? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. Just tell us briefly where you were born and where you +went to school and things of that kind. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I was born in Dallas, Dallas County. My father was a +farmer. I was very small when my mother died, I was 6 years old; and my +brothers and I were separated which they were put in the State orphans +home, and I went to live with my aunt. + +Mr. DULLES. Are your brothers older or younger? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I have one older than I. And I went to live with my aunt +and uncle in Grand Prairie. I went to Grand Prairie school. + +Mr. BALL. How far did you go through school? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Eighth grade. + +Mr. BALL. Then did you go to work? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I got married. I got married. + +Mr. BALL. How long were you married? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Me---- + +Mr. BALL. I understand you are not married at the present time? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No. I am not married. I would have been married 25 years +this past July. + +Mr. BALL. Were you a housewife for a while while you were married? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I was. + +Mr. BALL. How many years? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Let me see, about 8 years. + +Mr. BALL. Did you have any children? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I did. + +Mr. BALL. How many children did you have? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, I have five children. + +Mr. BALL. Do they live with you now or what? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I have one son who stays with me. + +Mr. BALL. What has been your work most of your life since you were +divorced, what kind of work have you done? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Waitress work. + +Mr. BALL. You have done waitress work? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where do you work now? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Eat Well Restaurant, 1404 Main Street, Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. BALL. Were you working there on November 22, 1963? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I was. + +Mr. BALL. What hours did you work? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I was due at work from 2:30 in the evening until 10:30 at +night. + +Mr. BALL. Straight shift? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you leave your home some time that morning to go to work? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. That evening? + +Mr. BALL. Morning. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. That morning? + +Mr. BALL. You left your home to go to work at some time, didn't you, +that day? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. At one. + +Mr. BALL. One o'clock? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I believe it was a little after 1. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you intend to catch the bus? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. On Patton and Jefferson. + +Mr. BALL. Patton and Jefferson is about a block south of Patton and +10th Street, isn't it? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I think so. + +Mr. BALL. Well, where is your home from Patton and Jefferson? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I had came--I come one block, I had come one block from +my home. + +Mr. BALL. You were walking, were you? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I came from 9th to the corner of 10th Street. + +Mr. BALL. And you were walking toward Jefferson? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Tenth Street runs the same direction as Jefferson, doesn't it? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. It runs in a generally east and west direction? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And Patton runs north and south? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; up and down this way. + +Mr. BALL. So you were walking south toward Jefferson? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You think it was a little after 1? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I wouldn't be afraid to bet it wasn't 6 or 7 minutes +after 1. + +Mr. BALL. You know what time you usually get your bus, don't you? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. 1:15. + +Mr. BALL. So it was before 1:15? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, it was. + +Mr. BALL. When you came to the corner of Patton and 10th Street--first +of all, what side of the street were you walking on? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Now you have got me mixed up on all my streets. I was on +the opposite of where this man was. + +Mr. BALL. Well, you were walking along the street---- + +Mrs. MARKHAM. On the street. + +Mr. BALL. On Patton, you were going toward Jefferson? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And you were on the right- or left-hand side of the street as +you were walking south? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. That would be on the left. + +Mr. BALL. Your right. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, it would be right. + +Mr. BALL. Right-hand side, wouldn't it? When you came to the corner did +you have to stop before you crossed 10th Street? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I did. + +Mr. BALL. Why? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. On account the traffic was coming. + +Mr. BALL. And you stopped there on the corner? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. That would be the northwest corner, wouldn't it? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Northwest corner. + +Mr. BALL. Is that right? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I believe it is. I believe it is the northwest corner. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see any man walking at that time? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I seen this man on the opposite side, across the +street from me. He was almost across Patton Street. + +Mr. BALL. Almost across Patton? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Walking in what direction? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I guess this would be south. + +Mr. BALL. Along 10th, east? Was it along 10th? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Walking away from you, wasn't he? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. He was walking up 10th, away from me. + +Mr. BALL. To your left? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, he was on the opposite side of the street to me +like that. + +Mr. BALL. Had he reached the curb yet? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Almost ready to get up on the curb. + +Mr. BALL. What did you notice then? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, I noticed a police car coming. + +Mr. BALL. Where was the police car when you first saw it? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. He was driving real slow, almost up to this man, well, +say this man, and he kept, this man kept walking, you know, and the +police car going real slow now, real slow, and they just kept coming +into the curb, and finally they got way up there a little ways up, +well, it stopped. + +Mr. BALL. The police car stopped? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What about the man? Was he still walking? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. The man stopped. + +Mr. BALL. Then what did you see the man do? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I saw the man come over to the car very slow, leaned and +put his arms just like this, he leaned over in this window and looked +in this window. + +Mr. BALL. He put his arms on the window ledge? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. The window was down. + +Mr. BALL. It was? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Put his arms on the window ledge? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. On the ledge of the window. + +Mr. BALL. And the policeman was sitting where? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. On the driver's side. + +Mr. BALL. He was sitting behind the wheel? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Was he alone in the car? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Then what happened? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, I didn't think nothing about it; you know, the +police are nice and friendly, and I thought friendly conversation. +Well, I looked, and there were cars coming, so I had to wait. Well, in +a few minutes this man made---- + +Mr. BALL. What did you see the policeman do? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. See the policeman? Well, this man, like I told you, put +his arms up, leaned over, he--just a minute, and he drew back and he +stepped back about two steps. Mr. Tippit---- + +Mr. BALL. The policeman? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. The policeman calmly opened the car door, very slowly, +wasn't angry or nothing, he calmly crawled out of this car, and I still +just thought a friendly conversation, maybe disturbance in the house, I +did not know; well, just as the policeman got in---- + +Mr. BALL. Which way did he walk? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Towards the front of the car. And just as he had gotten +even with the wheel on the driver's side---- + +Mr. BALL. You mean the left front wheel? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; this man shot the policeman. + +Mr. BALL. You heard the shots, did you? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Three. + +Mr. BALL. What did you see the policeman do? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. He fell to the ground, and his cap went a little ways out +on the street. + +Mr. BALL. What did the man do? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. The man, he just walked calmly, fooling with his gun. + +Mr. BALL. Toward what direction did he walk? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Come back towards me, turned around, and went back. + +Mr. BALL. Toward Patton? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; towards Patton. He didn't run. It just didn't +scare him to death. He didn't run. When he saw me he looked at me, +stared at me. I put my hands over my face like this, closed my eyes. I +gradually opened my fingers like this, and I opened my eyes, and when I +did he started off in kind of a little trot. + +Mr. BALL. Which way? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Sir? + +Mr. BALL. Which way? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Towards Jefferson, right across that way. + +Mr. DULLES. Did he have the pistol in his hand at this time? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. He had the gun when I saw him. + +Mr. BALL. Did you yell at him? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. When I pulled my fingers down where I could see, I got my +hand down, he began to trot off, and then I ran to the policeman. + +Mr. BALL. Before you put your hands over your eyes, before you put your +hand over your eyes, did you see the man walk towards the corner? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What did he do? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, he stared at me. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I didn't do anything. I couldn't. + +Mr. BALL. Didn't you say something? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, I couldn't. + +Mr. BALL. Or yell or scream? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I could not. I could not say nothing. + +Mr. BALL. You looked at him? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. You looked at him? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. He looked wild. I mean, well, he did to me. + +Mr. BALL. And you say you saw him fooling with his gun? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. He had it in his hands. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see what he was doing with it? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. He was just fooling with it. I didn't know what he was +doing. I was afraid he was fixing to kill me. + +Mr. BALL. How far away from the police car do you think you were on the +corner when you saw the shooting? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, I wasn't too far. + +Mr. BALL. Can you estimate it in feet? Don't guess. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I would just be afraid to say how many feet because I am +a bad judgment on that. + +Mr. BALL. When you looked at the man, though, when he came toward the +corner, you were standing on one corner, were you? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where was he standing with reference to the other corner? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. After he had shot---- + +Mr. BALL. When he looked at you. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. After he had shot the policeman? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. He was standing almost even to that curb, not very far +from the curb, from the sidewalk. + +Mr. BALL. Across the street from you? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did he look at you? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And did you look at him? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I sure did. + +Mr. BALL. That was before you put your hands over your eyes? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; and he kept fooling with his gun, and I slapped +my hands up to my face like this. + +Mr. BALL. And then you ran to the policeman? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. After he ran off. + +Mr. BALL. In what hand did he have his gun, do you know, when he fired +the shots? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Sir, I believe it was his right. I am not positive +because I was scared. + +Mr. BALL. When he came down the street towards you, in what hand did he +have his gun? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. He had it in both of them. + +Mr. BALL. He had it in both of them? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. When he went towards Jefferson you say he went at sort of a +trot? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did he cross Patton? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Were there many other, or other people in the block at that +time, or were you there with Officer Tippit almost alone? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I was out there, I didn't see anybody. I was there alone +by myself. + +Mr. DULLES. I see. You didn't see anybody else in the immediate +neighborhood? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No; not until everything was over--I never seen anybody +until I was at Mr. Tippit's side. I tried to save his life, which was I +didn't know at that time I couldn't do something for him. + +Mr. DULLES. Mr. Tippit, Officer Tippit, didn't say anything to you? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. He tried to. + +Mr. DULLES. He tried to? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. But he didn't succeed? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, I couldn't understand. I was screaming and hollering +and I was trying to help him all I could, and I would have. I was with +him until they put him in the ambulance. + +Mr. BALL. Did you make an estimate of how far you were from this man +with the gun when he came--after the shooting, and when he came down to +the corner, did you make an estimate of that? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No. To anyone---- + +Mr. BALL. We measured it the other day. We were out there, weren't we? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Now I couldn't tell you how many feet or nothing because +I have never had no occasions to measure that. + +Mr. DULLES. Was it further than this table, the length of this table? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. It was across the street. + +Mr. DULLES. Across the street. It was two or three times the length of +this table? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Across from the street. That was too close. + +Mr. BALL. We have a map coming from the FBI. We thought it would be +here this morning. + +Mrs. Markham, you were taken to the Police Department, weren't you? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Immediately. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Later that day they had a showup you went to? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. A lineup? + +Mr. BALL. A lineup. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. How many men were in the lineup? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I believe there were, now I am not positive, I believe +there were three besides this man. + +Mr. BALL. That would be four people altogether? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I believe that is correct. + +Mr. BALL. Were they of anywhere near similar build or size or coloring? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, they were all about the same height. + +Mr. BALL. Who were you in the lineup room with? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Who was I in the room where they had this man? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Policemen. + +Mr. BALL. More than one? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. The room was full. + +Mr. BALL. It was. In this lineup room, the room was full of policemen. +Weren't there just one or two men with you? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. One or two with me, but I don't know who they were. + +Mr. BALL. But there were other officers? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. There were all policemen sitting in the back of me, and +aside of me. + +Mr. BALL. In this room? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. They were doing something. + +Mr. BALL. Before you went into this room were you shown a picture of +anyone? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I was not. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see any television? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I did not. + +Mr. BALL. Did a police officer say anything to you before you went in +there, to tell you---- + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. That he thought "We had the right man," or something of that +sort? Anything like that? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. No statement like that? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did anybody tell you that the man you were looking for would +be in a certain position in the lineup, or anything like that? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now when you went into the room you looked these people over, +these four men? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you recognize anyone in the lineup? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You did not? Did you see anybody--I have asked you that +question before--did you recognize anybody from their face? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. From their face, no. + +Mr. BALL. Did you identify anybody in these four people? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I didn't know nobody. + +Mr. BALL. I know you didn't know anybody, but did anybody in that +lineup look like anybody you had seen before? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No. I had never seen none of them, none of these men. + +Mr. BALL. No one of the four? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No one of them. + +Mr. BALL. No one of all four? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Was there a number two man in there? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two is the one I picked. + +Mr. BALL. Well, I thought you just told me that you hadn't---- + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I thought you wanted me to describe their clothing. + +Mr. BALL. No. I wanted to know if that day when you were in there if +you saw anyone in there---- + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two. + +Mr. BALL. What did you say when you saw number two? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, let me tell you. I said the second man, and they +kept asking me which one, which one. I said, number two. When I said +number two, I just got weak. + +Mr. BALL. What about number two, what did you mean when you said number +two? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two was the man I saw shoot the policeman. + +Mr. BALL. You recognized him from his appearance? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I asked--I looked at him. When I saw this man I wasn't +sure, but I had cold chills just run all over me. + +Mr. BALL. When you saw him? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. When I saw the man. But I wasn't sure, so, you see, I +told them I wanted to be sure, and looked at his face is what I was +looking at, mostly is what I looked at, on account of his eyes, the way +he looked at me. So I asked them if they would turn him sideways. They +did, and then they turned him back around, and I said the second, and +they said, which one, and I said number two. So when I said that, well, +I just kind of fell over. Everybody in there, you know, was beginning +to talk, and I don't know, just---- + +Mr. BALL. Did you recognize him from his clothing? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. He had on a light short jacket, dark trousers. I looked +at his clothing, but I looked at his face, too. + +Mr. BALL. Did he have the same clothing on that the man had that you +saw shoot the officer? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. He had these dark trousers on. + +Mr. BALL. Did he have a jacket or a shirt? The man that you saw shoot +Officer Tippit and run away, did you notice if he had a jacket on? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. He had a jacket on when he done it. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of a jacket, what general color of jacket? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. It was a short jacket open in the front, kind of a +grayish tan. + +Mr. BALL. Did you tell the police that? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I did. + +Mr. BALL. Did any man in the lineup have a jacket on? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I can't remember that. + +Mr. BALL. Did this number two man that you mentioned to the police have +any jacket on when he was in the lineup? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did he have on? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. He had on a light shirt and dark trousers. + +(Representative Ford is now in the Commission hearing room.) + +Mr. BALL. Did you recognize the man from his clothing or from his face? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Mostly from his face. + +Mr. BALL. Were you sure it was the same man you had seen before? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I am sure. + +Mr. BALL. Now, what time of day was it that you saw this man in the +lineup? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I would say it was four, a little after. + +Mr. BALL. That was four in the afternoon? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I was so upset I couldn't even tell you the time. In +fact, I wasn't interested in the time. + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. Could I ask just one question? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. You referred to his eyes; they were rather striking. Can +you give any impression of how his eyes looked to you? I realize that +is a very vague question. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. He looked wild. They were glassy looking, because I +could see---- + +Mr. DULLES. He had no glasses on? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No. When we looked at each other, he just stared, just +like that. I just don't know. I just seen him--I would know the man +anywhere, I know I would. + +Mr. DULLES. Thank you. + +Mr. BALL. I have here an exhibit, Commission Exhibit 162, a jacket. Did +you ever see this before? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I did not. + +Mr. BALL. Does it look like, anything like, the jacket the man had on? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. It is short, open down the front. But that jacket it is a +darker jacket than that, I know it was. + +Mr. BALL. You don't think it was as light a jacket as that? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, it was darker than that, I know it was. At that +moment I was so excited---- + +Mr. BALL. I show you a shirt here, which is Exhibit 150. Did you ever +see a shirt the color of this? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. The shirt that this man had, it was a lighter looking +shirt than that. + +Mr. BALL. The man who shot Tippit? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; I think it was lighter. + +Mr. BALL. All right. I have some pictures here that I would like to +show you. I have Exhibits 521 and 522, which have been marked as +Exhibits. Here is one picture, 521. Do you recognize that as the sign +down? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. This is the corner of Patton and 10th. + +Mr. BALL. Patton and 10th. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. This is on the corner of Patton and 10th. + +Mr. BALL. Yes. Was the man anywhere near that corner when you saw him? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, he was. + +Mr. BALL. After the shooting? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; he was. + +Mr. BALL. All right. Now, take this pen and put an X as to the point +when he looked at you and you looked at him. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. He was right along here. + +Mr. BALL. Put an X. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't know. I am too nervous. + +Mr. BALL. At the time the man was standing at X in this picture, at +this location, which is shown in 521, where were you? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I was on the opposite corner, across over here, like this. + +Mr. BALL. Were you as close to the curb as--were you close to the curb +at that time? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I was. + +Mr. DULLES. Where was the car, where this car is? + +Mr. BALL. No, I have another picture I will show her. I have here +Exhibit 522; do you recognize the white house in the picture? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And the driveway next to it? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Does that show the location of the police car at the time it +stopped? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. That is the big old white house, 404. + +Mrs. BALL. That is right. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. 10th Street, and this driveway and this house. + +Mr. DULLES. Will you give us an idea, Mr. Ball, as to where she said +she was on this picture? Was she over here? + +Mr. BALL. We have a picture. There is a booklet here that has been +prepared by a succession of witnesses. We have a general diagram here +which I will show the witness at this time. + +Mrs. Markham, there is a diagram here which shows 10th Street going in +an easterly and westerly direction, Patton running north and south. + +(Marked Commission Exhibit No. 523 for identification.) + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Do you understand that? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. This would be the corner I would be at. + +Mr. BALL. No, this would be Patton. This is north and south. Jefferson +is down here. Can you locate yourself? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. This is 10th? + +Mr. BALL. That is 10th. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. And this Patton? + +Mr. BALL. That is right. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I was standing on the corner of 10th and Patton. + +Mr. BALL. That is right. But which corner? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Northeast corner is where I was standing. + +Mr. BALL. Northeast or northwest? This would be northeast and this +would be northwest. Here is where the squad car would be. Right there. +Here is 404. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. It would be this corner then. + +Mr. BALL. Well, that is northeast and that is northwest. Were you +kitty-cornered? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I was kitty-cornered from it like this. + +Mr. BALL. Like that? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Well, this is northwest, this is northeast, southeast, +southwest, and here is the car. We are going down the street now. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. It would be this--that would be on the opposite side. + +Mr. BALL. That is right. Look at a number on that and tell me where you +were standing. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I was standing right at the curb. + +Mr. BALL. Do you see a number? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Number 5. + +Mr. BALL. Number 5 on this diagram would be indicating the place where +you would be standing, is that right? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I was standing on the opposite corner from that. + +Mr. BALL. I know, but I have got to get you to tell me where you were +standing. Picture yourself going down Patton towards Jefferson. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Going down Patton? + +Mr. BALL. You were coming from this direction. Your home was up here. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I was coming down Patton. It would be this corner. + +Mr. BALL. That corner, all right. Take this pen and show your course +down the sidewalk. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Just draw it right on it? + +Mr. BALL. Down to where you stood. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Right on the edge. + +Mr. BALL. Is there a number there that shows where you were? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Near 5, is that right? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. That is the northwest corner? + +Mr. BALL. Northwest corner; that is the northwest corner. Here is a +picture. Do you recognize that? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. That is picture number 3 in the booklet. Does that show where +you were? + +(Marked Commission Exhibit No. 524 for identification.) + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where was the man shot? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Right here. + +Mr. BALL. Put a mark where you first saw him. Mark that A. Then he went +which direction down the street? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. He went this way. + +Mr. BALL. In other words, he went in a direction--draw a line and then +put an arrow showing what direction. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. From here---- + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Right on down the side. + +Mr. BALL. Make a mark and put an arrow. That was the direction he was +walking? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. The police car had not come into sight yet? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. That is right. + +Mr. BALL. Put an X where the police car was when you first saw it, put +an X there and we will mark that B. Now, after the shooting, where was +the man when you looked at him? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. He turned and came back this way. + +Mr. BALL. Where did he stand and look at you? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Right here. + +Mr. BALL. Put a mark there. We will mark that C. Where were you +standing when he was looking at you? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. The same position. + +Mr. BALL. The same position as the girl shown on this picture? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Is that your picture? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. That is you there in that picture? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you stand there for the photographer to show him where +you were standing? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I would like to offer into evidence the diagram in this book, +together with the picture which illustrates the diagram. + +The CHAIRMAN. Under what numbers? + +Mr. BALL. As 523, which is the diagram, and 524, which is the picture. + +The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted. + +(The documents identified as Commission Exhibits Nos. 521-524 were +received in evidence.) + +Mr. BALL. You went out there in picture number 3. Now, Mr. Dulles, I +think this will explain it. + +Mr. DULLES. Yes, Mr. Ball. + +Mr. BALL. I have some other pictures here that might illustrate. Do you +recognize this? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. You were here the time the picture was taken? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You told the parties where to put the squad car? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Does this show the place where the police car was when this +happened? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. The place at the arrow? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. It shows a corner. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. On the picture make a mark where the man was when he came +back and looked at you. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. He was a little behind this. + +Mr. BALL. Just make an X there in general. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. That is supposed to be on the sidewalk. + +Mr. BALL. I would like to have this marked as Commission Exhibit 525. +The X marks the position of the man who did the shooting on the corner +after the shooting, and the arrow points to the squad car. Here is +another picture marked 4 in this book which I will mark as Commission +Exhibit 526. Is that you in the picture? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You went out there the day the picture was taken? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Is that where you were standing? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Is that where you were when you saw the shooting? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you move from that place from the time of the shooting +until the time you saw the man on the corner? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. I wonder, Mrs. Markham, if you would repeat for me, I would +like to hear it, and Congressman Ford would like to hear it, the scene +that you saw where the man now known to be Oswald went up and put his +arms on the door of the police car, as I understand it. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. Would you tell that once again. I would like to hear it +again. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. He calmly walked to the car. He wasn't in no hurry. + +Mr. DULLES. May I ask, was he called, were there any words that you +heard? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, I did not. I seen the police car stop. + +Mr. DULLES. You didn't hear the policeman say, "Come here," or anything +of that kind? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No. + +Mr. DULLES. He might have done it, but you didn't hear it? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. That is right. And the man went over to the car, put his +hands on the window---- + +Mr. DULLES. The window was open? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Leaned over like this. + +Mr. DULLES. Let me see. Was that on the right-hand side of the car, or +where the driver was? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. It was on the opposite side of the car. + +Mr. DULLES. Opposite side of the car from the driver, yes. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. The window was down, and I know it was down, I +know, and he put his arms and leaned over, I don't know what they were +talking about, I didn't hear it. Then he stepped back in a few minutes, +stepped back two steps. + +Mr. DULLES. He stepped back two steps from the car? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Just stepped back twice. Mr. Tippit, of course, the +policeman--I didn't know it was Mr. Tippit---- + +Mr. DULLES. Yes. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. He calmly opened the door. He calmly crawled out like he +wasn't angry. + +Mr. DULLES. Did he have a weapon in his hands? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I didn't see one. + +Mr. DULLES. And what happened? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. He was just calmly walking to the front of the car and +when he got even with the wheel on the driver's side, front, you know, +that man shot him. + +Mr. DULLES. Did you see him draw his revolver? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. He shot him like this. + +Mr. DULLES. I see. + +Mr. BALL. Like this, you mean from the hip or from the waist? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. In the wink of your eye, before you could ever--just +like that. It didn't seem like it bothered him, disturbed him. + +Mr. DULLES. The policeman hadn't made, as far as you could see, any +menacing gestures toward him? He wasn't trying to grab him or anything +of that kind? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No. He was very calm, very. I would say like in slow +motion, you know, like he was getting out to talk with the man, or go +in the house for disturbance or something, I don't know. + +Mr. BALL. He shot across the hood of the car? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Across the hood. + +Mr. BALL. The policeman was in the street, walking in the street around +to the front of the car? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. The policeman then got out on the opposite side of where +Oswald was? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I guess he was coming around. + +Representative FORD. It appeared as though he was walking around the +front of the car? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. He had started around, and then he was going over to the +man. + +Mr. BALL. He had only reached the left front wheel though when he was +shot? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And he fell into the street? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. He fell into the street, his hat fell off his head. He +didn't fall, just clumped down like that. + +Representative FORD. Did the man with the gun move at all as the +officer started to go around the car? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No. He didn't move. I mean, walked back or anything like +that, no, sir. + +Representative FORD. He didn't appear to run? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No. I didn't know anything was going to happen. If I had +I would have kept walking, not walking, running. + +Mr. DULLES. He had walked slowly around the car to meet the other man? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. The policeman was. + +Mr. DULLES. Slow? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Was there a pool of blood where Mr. Tippit fell in the street? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I show you this picture, Exhibit 533 (renumbered as Exhibit +527, see p. 321). Will you look at that picture and tell me whether it +shows the approximate position where Mr. Tippit fell after he was shot? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. He fell right out this way. + +Mr. BALL. Look at the discoloration in the street. Is that anywhere +near where Tippit fell? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. It don't seem to me it was out that far. + +Mr. BALL. It doesn't? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. It seemed like to me it was over this way because he fell +this way. + +Mr. BALL. He fell this way? These people can't see what you are showing +here. Here is the pool of blood. Which way do you think he fell? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. See the wheel would be right down under here, back right +this way. He fell this way. + +Mr. BALL. Into the street? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, and his head was like this, you know, it was laying +like this. + +Mr. DULLES. Is this splotch out here in front of the car the pool of +blood? + +Mr. BALL. Out to the left. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. It seems to me it ought to be here. + +Mr. BALL. But there was a pool of blood? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I will pass this out to the Commissioners. + +Representative FORD. May I ask this, Mr. Ball, the place where you +pointed, where you thought the pool of blood different from where it is +shown on here was only a matter of what, a foot or two? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; just about a little, back a little. It seems +his hat was this way. + +Representative FORD. So it is a difference of a foot or two, at the +most? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. That is right. + +Mr. DULLES. Could you see the blood at this time or just see him fall? +Did you actually see blood? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Did I actually see it, sir? I was there. + +Mr. DULLES. I know you were there. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I was standing over it. + +Mr. DULLES. You were standing right over the officer? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. Just as soon as, just as quick as I could get to +him; and the blood was coming from here like this and like that, in an +oval shape. It did not splutter on his face too much, his mouth. It was +here, coming out here. + +Representative FORD. The blood was? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, just gushes. I had my workshoes in my hand. I laid +them up on the squad car. I had my purse, which I can't remember where +I put it, but this, I had a head scarf around my head, I had my coat on. + +Mr. BALL. I would like to offer all of these into evidence at this +time, up to 526, inclusive. + +The CHAIRMAN. They may be received. + +(The items identified as Commission Exhibits Nos. 525 and 526 were +received in evidence.) + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dulles, will you preside in my absence, please. I +must attend a session of the Court. + +Mr. DULLES. I will, sir. + +(The Chairman left the hearing room at this point.) + +Mr. BALL. Mrs. Markham, the police car, did the police car go beyond +the man who was walking along the sidewalk, or did it stop opposite him? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Almost even with him. + +Mr. BALL. And when the police car stopped, did the man stop? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; and walked over to the policeman. + +Mr. BALL. The police car was going in the same direction as the man? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And caught up with him? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Mrs. Markham, do you know a man named Mark Lane? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I do not. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever hear of the name? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Did not. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to a New York lawyer who says he was from +New York? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to a lawyer who was investigating the case +in behalf of the deceased man, Lee Oswald? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to a man who said he was representing the +mother of Lee Oswald? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You don't remember ever talking to a man named Mark Lane? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. In an appearance before this Commission, a man named Mark +Lane has testified this way. Let me read it to you. That was on +Wednesday, March 4, 1964, Vol. II of a public hearing before this +Commission, page 51. This is what he said: + +"I spoke with the deponent"--he is talking about an affidavit that +you made to the Dallas Police Department--"I spoke with the deponent, +the eyewitness, Helen Louise Markham, and Mrs. Markham told me--Miss +or Mrs., I didn't ask her if she was married--told me she was 100 +feet away from the police car, not the 50 feet which appears in the +affidavit." + +Do you recall ever stating that to Mr. Lane or anyone else? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; no, sir. + +Mr. BALL. He testified: "She gave me a more detailed description of the +man who she said shot Officer Tippit. She said he was short, a little +on the heavy side, and his hair was somewhat bushy." Did you say that +to Mark Lane? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; I don't even know the man. + +Mr. BALL. Or anybody else? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever tell anyone that the man who shot Tippit was +short, a little on the heavy side, and his hair was somewhat bushy? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Was the man, is it your memory now that the man who shot +Tippit was short, a little on the heavy side? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. He wasn't too heavy. + +Mr. BALL. Is it your memory that his hair was bushy? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. It wasn't so bushy. It was, say, windblown or something. +What I mean, he didn't have a lot of hair. + +Mr. BALL. He didn't have a lot of hair? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; that I could see. I don't even know that man; I +never talked to nobody. + +Representative FORD. You didn't talk to him by telephone or any other +means? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. + +Representative FORD. Did you ever get an anonymous phone call from a +person who asked you these questions? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No. + +Mr. BALL. Now, he also says, and he testified as follows: + +"Helen Markham said to me she was taken to the police station on that +same day, that she was very upset. She, of course, had never seen +anyone killed in front of her eyes before, and in the police station +she identified Oswald as the person who had shot Officer Tippit in the +lineup, including three other persons. She said no one pointed Oswald +out to her, and she said she was just shown four people, and she picked +Oswald. She said when he asked her how she could identify him, she said +she was able to identify him because of his clothing, a gray jacket and +dark trousers." + +Did you ever make that statement to him? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I did not, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Or to anyone else? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Not to anybody. + +Mr. BALL. When you identified Oswald--it was the number 2 man--were you +told the number 2 man whom you identified in the lineup? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, I was not. + +Mr. BALL. Were you ever told his name? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No. + +Mr. BALL. Ever told his name later? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Nobody, nobody told me nothing. + +Mr. BALL. Well, the man that you identified as the number 2 man in the +lineup in the police station, you identified him as the man you had +seen shoot Officer Tippit? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I did. + +Mr. BALL. Did you identify him because of his clothing that he had on +at that time in the lineup. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Just like I told you. I mostly looked at his face, his +eyes, and his clothing, too. + +Mr. BALL. He said here you were able to identify him, Mark Lane +testified that you told him you were able to identify him because of +his clothing, a gray jacket. First, did the man in the lineup have a +gray jacket on? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did he have on? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. He had on this light shirt, dark trousers. + +Mr. DULLES. You have considered your answers very carefully, have you, +on this point? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I am doing my best. + +Mr. DULLES. Yes, I know you are, and you are quite sure you never +talked to anyone who purported to be Mr. Lane? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Never in my life. I talked to two men, and this man who +told me he was from Paris, France. He came down on my job. I was scared +to death. I wasn't going to talk to him. I work for a Greek. + +Mr. DULLES. Let's get this a little more clearly, Mrs. Markham. You say +you talked with someone who came from France? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. Did he represent a French newspaper? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. You don't know what newspaper? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No. He told--you see, I didn't understand this man, but +my boss could. + +Mr. DULLES. He came to you in the restaurant? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. And I was scared, which I was scared of everybody. +I was upset and trying to work, too, and he was--he come to me and he +asked for me and, of course, they knew who I was because I was there so +long. + +Mr. DULLES. When was that? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't recall the date. + +Mr. DULLES. Was it 2 or 3 days after the assassination or was it right +after? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. It was quite some time after. + +Mr. DULLES. Some time after? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. A week or more, maybe? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. + +Representative FORD. Can you describe this man? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. He had--he was dark complected, very nice man, black +horn-rimmed glasses, black-headed, and he was build kind of---- + +Mr. DULLES. What did he ask you--excuse me. + +Representative FORD. Was he tall or short, heavy set? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. About medium, I guess. I didn't pay much attention to the +man. + +Representative FORD. Did he have an accent? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, he did. + +Representative FORD. Was it difficult for you to understand him because +of this accent? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. This is what this man told me. He told me--he told +my boss and my boss also told me, my boss stood right beside me. + +Representative FORD. Did he speak in English with an accent? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. But this man told me the Government sent him. + +Representative FORD. Did he identify which government? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. He had--he showed me who he was. He was a news reporter. + +Mr. DULLES. Did he say whether he was a foreigner or an American +citizen? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I can't remember. I was too scared. But he did show me +his identification, his picture and everything. The Government had sent +him to me, which he was coming to Washington. He was supposed to be +here, and then back somewhere in Dallas, I think he told me. + +Mr. DULLES. Could you recall the questions he asked you? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. He just asked me very few questions. This man asked me +about if the police had taken me down to the police station and did I +see anything after I went into the police station, hear any TV, or see +any TV, any radio, newspapers, or anybody talked to me, and I said they +did not. + +Representative FORD. Did your employer listen to the questions and +answers? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, James Gambolis listened to it. + +Mr. DULLES. We will take a moment's recess. + +(A short recess was taken.) + +Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November, 1963, that is the day of the +shooting, did you talk to an FBI agent named Odum? Do you remember? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I talked to some people, men, down at the police station. + +Mr. BALL. That is right. He says that you described the man who shot +Tippit as a white male, about 18, black hair, red complexion, wearing +black shoes, tan jacket, and dark trousers. Do you remember that? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I never said anything about his shoes because I never did +look at his feet. + +Mr. BALL. Did you say about 18? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I said he was young looking. + +Mr. BALL. Did you give that age, 18? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, I don't believe I did. + +Mr. BALL. Did you say he had black hair? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You thought he was black-haired? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, that is what I told him. I thought he was +black-haired. I remember saying that. + +Mr. BALL. Red complexion? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, not red complexioned. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't say that? + +Mr. DULLES. Mrs. Markham, did you say you talked to two persons, one +person whom you are now describing from a foreign newspaper, and one +other? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. Who was the other one with whom you talked? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't recall. He was a newspaper reporter by Life +magazine. + +Mr. DULLES. Life magazine? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. I remember, which they did print the picture in Life +magazine. + +Mr. DULLES. And Life magazine printed what you told them? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. And printed it accurately as far as you recall? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Very little of what I told him did he put in. + +Mr. DULLES. What they put in was accurate more or less? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. + +Representative FORD. It coincided with what you told him? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, just a little old paragraph or two. + +Mr. DULLES. Except for those two persons, you don't recall talking with +anyone about your testimony or your appearance in the lineup? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Just those two? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Just a few more questions, Mrs. Markham. You ran immediately +over to where the police officer was lying in the street? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I did. + +Mr. BALL. Was he alive? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did he say anything? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. He was trying to, but he just couldn't. I just couldn't +make out what he was trying to say. + +Mr. BALL. Did some man come up immediately thereafter? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of a car did he have? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Not immediately. + +Mr. BALL. Soon? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Soon. + +Mr. BALL. In a pickup truck? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. I very frankly remembered this truck, but I remember +it the way it took off. + +Mr. BALL. He stopped though, didn't he? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. That is the man who called over the police radio, wasn't he? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't recall. + +Mr. BALL. What did he look like, the man in the pickup truck? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. This man had a hat on. I thought he was a policeman. + +Mr. BALL. A dark man, looked somewhat Spanish? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't recall. I was screaming and crying and trying to +get help, begging for somebody to help me. + +Mr. BALL. When did you start screaming? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I started screaming by the time I left where I was +standing and screamed plumb across the street. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember what you said? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. "The man has killed a policeman," I remember, "Somebody +help. He has killed him, he has killed him," I was saying that, I was +pulling my hair almost. It is a wonder he did not turn and kill me, +really it was. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Scoggins? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't remember---- + +Mr. BALL. The taxicab driver. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I saw the taxicab driver. + +Mr. BALL. Where was the taxicab? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Parked on Patton. + +Mr. BALL. On Patton? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see the man later, did you see him before the +shooting? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, he was sitting in his cab. + +Mr. BALL. He was. Then you saw him afterward, didn't you? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Those are all the questions I have of this witness. Do you +have something additional? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Believe me, it was just like---- + +Mr. DULLES. I believe Mr. Ford would like to have the witness repeat +what she saw the man, now known as Oswald, do after the shooting. Will +you just repeat that for Congressman Ford? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. After he shot the policeman---- + +Mr. DULLES. After he shot the policeman. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. After he shot the policeman he turned around, came back +around toward Patton Street. He wasn't he didn't seem to be in a no +hurry. I thought he hadn't done anything, and he was fooling with his +gun in his hands, and he seen me, and he stops. + +Mr. DULLES. He stopped? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. When he saw me. That is the reason we were looking at +each other. + +Mr. DULLES. He hadn't seen you before so far as you could tell? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I put my hands over my face and closed my eyes, because I +knew he was going to kill me. I couldn't scream, I couldn't holler. I +froze. + +Mr. DULLES. I think you testified about that then he began to run +slowly. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Then---- + +Mr. DULLES. Was that after he saw you? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; after I put my hands up, and when I had opened my +fingers and my eyes and slowly pulled them down, he was trotting off. + +Mr. DULLES. Trotting off? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. He wasn't out of sight when I started running +to this police car. He was not out of sight. + +Mr. DULLES. You didn't see which way he turned at the end of this run? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No; he cut across like this, across Patton, and went out +like that. + +Mr. DULLES. Like this means to the right or to the left? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. It means to the right, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. To his right, to the man's right, as he was running? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. He ran back, turned and came back down 10th to Patton +Street. He cut across Patton Street like this. + +Mr. BELIN. Heading toward what street? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Toward Jefferson; yes, sir. Then he was still in sight +when I began to scream and holler and run to this police car, well, to +Mr. Tippit. + +Mr. DULLES. Thank you. + +Mr. BALL. Are there any more questions? + +You can be excused, Mrs. Markham. + +Mr. DULLES. Do you have any questions you would like to ask, Mr. +Attorney General? + +Mr. CARR. No; I have not. + +Mr. DULLES. Could you wait for just a moment. We are sorry to detain +you. There is something that might come up with the next witness, and +we might wish to ask you another question. I do not think we will. We +are very grateful to you, Mrs. Markham. + +Mr. BALL. Exhibit previously marked "533," which is the squad car, +Tippit, showing the street and blood spot in the street, I would like +to have marked as "Exhibit 527." It was marked by mistake. + +Mr. DULLES. Is that our last exhibit? + +Mr. BALL. That is our last exhibit, 527 is our last exhibit now. + +(The item identified as Commission Exhibit No. 527 was received in +evidence.) + +Mr. DULLES. You might stand for just a moment, Mr. Scoggins. The +witnesses are sworn before they can give testimony before this +Commission. + +Do you swear, Mr. Scoggins, that the testimony that you will give +before this Commission is the truth, the whole truth, so help you God? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. To the best of my knowledge; yes. + +Mr. DULLES. Be seated, please. + +Mr. Scoggins, the Commission is taking testimony, and the Chief Justice +asked me to preside in his absence, he has to be away in the Court this +morning. + +The purpose of today's hearing is to hear your testimony and that of +certain others who were in the vicinity of the shooting of Officer +Tippit, and we will want your testimony on that particular point this +morning. + +Will you proceed? + +Mr. BALL. Mr. Belin is going to examine this witness. + +Mr. DULLES. Mr. Belin will carry on the examination on behalf of the +Commission. + +Will you proceed please? + + +TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM W. SCOGGINS + +Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. Will you please state your name, sir, for the +record. + +Mr. SCOGGINS. William W. Scoggins. + +Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Scoggins? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. 3138 Alaska. + +Mr. BELIN. In what city and State is that? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Dallas. + +Mr. BELIN. Dallas, Tex.? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. How old a gentleman are you? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Forty-nine. + +Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Taxicab driver, operator. + +Mr. BELIN. For what company? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. The Dallas Transit Co. I drive out of Oak Cliff. + +Mr. BELIN. You drive out of Oak Cliff? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir; Oak Cliff, yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were you born, Mr. Scoggins? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Hillsboro, Hill County. + +Mr. BELIN. Is that in Texas? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school there? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I went most of the time in McLennan County; most of +my schooling was down in McLennan County. + +Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school before you started to +work? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Eighth grade. + +Mr. BELIN. Now what did you do after school? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, while I was going to school, and that time we lived +on a farm, you know, and then after that, well, that would be a hard +problem there. I left home when I was rather young, stayed with some of +my brothers some, and then done odd jobs around for quite a while. My +first job, I guess you might say, would be automobile paint job. + +Mr. BELIN. Automobile paint job? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, New York City. + +Mr. BELIN. New York City. How long did you stay in New York? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Approximately 3 years. + +Mr. BELIN. And then where did you go? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I went back to Texas. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do there? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Done farmwork. + +Mr. BELIN. And about how long did you do farmwork, approximately? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Well now, after--let's see, my life was kind of mixed up. +I have been around quite a while in different places and things. After +I left New York I went to Connecticut to join the CCC camp and stayed +there 3 years. + +Mr. BELIN. CCC camp? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. And then I went back to Texas. + +The first thing I done was open up a cafe down there and operated it +about a year, and from there went to Waco and worked in a cotton mill, +and then I moved back to west Texas to a little town about 18 miles out +of Waco, and lived there, and done farmwork for a couple or 3 years, +and then I moved to Dallas. + +I think late in 1941, and I worked for Newhoff Packers in Dallas for 2 +years, and then I went into the aircraft business and worked for North +American approximately 3 years, and then I went into the contracting +business for about a year, and went to General Dynamics, worked there +approximately 15-1/2 years, and then I have been working for the +company, taxicab company, for a couple of years. + +Mr. BELIN. You have been driving a cab for 2 years? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No, not quite 2 years. + +Mr. BELIN. A little bit less than 2 years? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. A year and 9 months. I don't know exactly when I started. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were you driving your cab in the early part of the +afternoon of November 22, 1963, if you remember? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I picked up a gentleman at Love Field at +approximately 12:35, I would say, and I discharged him at 1 o'clock at +321 North Ewing. + +Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I went around by the Gentlemen's Club which I believe is +125 Patton. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do there? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I pulled up and parked at the corner of Patton and 10th +and went back down to the club. At first, whenever I passed by, one of +the guys hollered at me and asked me did I know the President had been +shot, and I made the remark that I had not heard that one. I found a +place to park and I came back, and he came back there in a couple of +minutes and told me the facts about it. I thought it was some kind of a +joke. + +So I had to go plumb up to the corner of 10th before I could find a +parking place, and I parked right there on the corner and went back and +got me a coke and watched the deal, watched the television. + +Mr. DULLES. Would you speak a little louder, please; I can't quite hear. + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I got me a coke and watched television for a few minutes, +I would say 10, 12, 15 minutes, there, and went out to eat my lunch. + +Mr. DULLES. What were you seeing on television? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. The deal about the President getting assassinated; and +when I got back to my cab and got my lunch, and, well, I noticed a +police car cruising east there on 10th Street. + +Mr. BELIN. Where was your cab parked with relationship to the +intersection of Patton and 10th? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, it was headed north on Patton, facing 10th Street, +on the right-hand side of the street, right close to where the stop +sign had been. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, the right-hand side of the street would be the east or +the west? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. It would be the east side. I was headed north. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Were you on the north side of the intersection or +the south side of the intersection? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. South side. + +Mr. DULLES. How near the intersection were you? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Right near. They had a stop sign there and someone had +had a wreck previously, I don't know, the sign was down. It was laying +there, it had been bent over. + +Representative FORD. Was this a normal stop for you, or how did you +happen to be stopped there? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I just went around just like I say. We can take our +lunch hour anytime, you know; we can call in and say we are going to be +out of service for lunch or for anything we might want to be out for, +and that is what I had done. + +Representative FORD. This was not a regular place where you waited for +calls? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No. You see the way we operate there, just where we +discharge a passenger, then we call in and tell them where we are at on +our radio, and if they have anybody in that vicinity who needs a cab, +they give us their address, you see. Of course, now in the downtown +area we do have stands to operate from, at the hotels, and then we +have some stands at the medical buildings and the depot and the bus +stations; and if we want to pick up there, we can pick up and we don't +need to call in. But if we want to sit there we can call in that we are +in this neighborhood. If they have got someone who has requested a cab, +they give us the address, you see. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, showing you Commission Exhibit 528, I would +like to ask you to state, if you know, what this is. + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir; that is the corner where I was sitting right +here, you see, on 10th. + +Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to something in the front-center part of +the picture. What is that? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. That is the stop sign that had been knocked over. + +Mr. BELIN. That is the knocked-over stop sign? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What intersection is that? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Tenth and Patton. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, we offer in evidence remarked Exhibit 527 and also +Exhibit 528. + +(The items identified as Commission Exhibits Nos. 527 and 528 were +received in evidence.) + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, handing you what has been marked as Commission +Exhibit 523, which purports to be a plat, you see the streets of Patton +Avenue there and East 10th. Do you see any number on that exhibit, +Exhibit 523, which would indicate the approximate location of your car +during the period that you are describing here? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, it looks to me like this number 10. + +Mr. BELIN. You are not pointing to number 10. + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Eleven, isn't it? + +Mr. BELIN. It is 11, and here is 9. + +Mr. SCOGGINS. It looked like a 10 to me. Number 11. + +Mr. BELIN. Number 11 is, you think, where you were with regard to---- + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Within the general area. + +Mr. BELIN. Within the general area of Number 11 on Exhibit 523. + +Now, Mr. Scoggins, you stated you were sitting in your cab as you +stopped at your intersection. You had a coke and your lunch. + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. What were you doing, eating your lunch? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I was in the process of eating it. + +Mr. BELIN. You were in the process? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I had taken one or two bites of my sandwich and drank a +couple of swallows out of my coke. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. DULLES. What time was this, approximately, as far as you can recall? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Around 1:20 in the afternoon. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Will you please state then what happened, what +you saw, what you did, what you heard? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I first seen the police car cruising east. + +Mr. BELIN. About how fast was it cruising? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Not more than 10 or 12 miles a hour, I would say. + +Mr. BELIN. It was going east on what street? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. On Tenth. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Did you see the police car go across right in +front of yours? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he went right down the street. He come from the +west, going east on east Tenth. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I noticed he stopped down there, and I wasn't paying too +much attention to the man, you see, just used to see him every day, but +then I kind of looked down the street, saw this, someone, that looked +to me like he was going west, now, I couldn't exactly say whether he +was going west or was in the process of turning around, but he was +facing west when I saw him. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. SCOGGINS. And he was--he stopped there. + +Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this now. When you first saw this man, had +the police car stopped or not? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he stopped. When I saw he stopped, then I looked +to see why he was stopping, you see, and I saw this man with a +light-colored jacket on. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, you saw a man with a light-colored jacket. With +relation to the police car, was the man east of the police car, west of +the police car, or kind of---- + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Just a little east is the best I can remember. + +Mr. BELIN. He was a little bit east of the police car? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he was just a little bit forward. The police car +headed east and he was a little bit, maybe not more than the front end +of the car. + +Mr. BELIN. You thought the man was at the front end of the car? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; approximately. + +Mr. BELIN. But by that you mean the front wheel or front bumper area? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Was he on the sidewalk? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. At the time I saw him; yes. + +Mr. BELIN. When you first saw him, I believe you said you saw the man's +face, or did you not say that? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I couldn't see the man's face from there. I saw the face +when he passed the cab. + +Mr. BELIN. What led you to believe that he was walking west? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, he was facing west. + +Mr. BELIN. You mean he was facing west when you first saw him? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he was kind of facing that way. + +Mr. BELIN. Was it due west the way the sidewalk was, or was it---- + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; west in relation to the sidewalk. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. Then what did you see the man do? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I saw him turn facing the street, and then I didn't see +him any more after that because he went behind some shrubbery. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see the police officer do anything? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I saw him get out of the police car. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see what side he went out of? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. He got out of the driver's side, left-hand side. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see happen? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Then he took about a step, I would say, or approximately +one or two steps, and then I wasn't really--you know--I went back to my +eating, and about that time I heard the shots. + +Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Three or four, in the neighborhood. They was fast. + +Mr. BELIN. They were fast shots? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; they were fast. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do or say or hear? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Then I saw the man falling, grab his stomach and fall. + +Mr. BELIN. Which man did you see fall? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. The policeman. I was excited when I heard them shots, +and I started to get out--since we went back over there the other day +and reenacted that scene, I must have seen him fall as I was getting +out of my cab, because I got out of the cab, and in the process of +getting out of the cab I seen this guy coming around, so I got out of +sight. I started to cross the street, but I seen I didn't have enough +time to cross the street before he got down there, so I got back behind +the cab, and as he cut across that yard I heard him running into some +bushes, and I looked up and seen him going south on Patton and then +when I jumped back in my cab I called my dispatcher. + +Mr. BELIN. Why did you jump out of your cab first when you heard the +shots? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Because anytime that there is anything going on that is +one thing the cab driver wants to do is to get away from that cab, +because the man is going to try--if he had ever seen the cab, he looked +back over his left shoulder, and I don't think he even seen the cab--he +would have probably jumped in the cab and had me take him somewhere or +maybe shot me, too, you know, and I didn't want to be around the cab +at anytime while he was in the neighborhood, you know, when there was +anything like that going on, or anything, robbery, or anything. + +Mr. BELIN. I believe you said you saw the officer fall. Did you see +where he fell? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he fell right by the side of the front, about, a +little bit forward of the door, right about the door. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you ever later go up and view the officer? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. I went up there, but by the time I got up there the +ambulance had already got there. You see I got my dispatcher and was +telling him about it, just by that time the ambulance got there. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you notice anything in the street to indicate where the +officer fell? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. There was blood there, of course. They picked the man up +by the time I got there, the ambulance did. + +Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question? You were in touch with your +dispatcher over your radio contact? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. What did you tell your dispatcher? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I told him there had been a policeman shot at 10th and +Patton, and you see they have a number of cars they are talking to, you +know, and I had to holler about three or four times before I got his +attention, and then I seen I wasn't going to get through to him, so I +just hollered there had been a policeman shot at 10th and Patton, and +then they went to talking to me then. + +Mr. DULLES. What did they say to you then? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. The first thing they says is do they need an ambulance, +and I says, "Sure." And they wanted to know the exact location, and I +said right off east of 10th and Patton, and the ambulance was only a +block and a quarter or so from the scene, you see, and they just come +on right around there. + +Mr. DULLES. And this conversation took you a minute or two, would you +estimate? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, a couple of minutes, I would say. It was pretty +close. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, handing you what the Commission reporter has +marked, or what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 527, I ask you to +state if this substance on the street here appears to be anything you +had ever seen before. + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; that appears to be the officer's blood, blood from +the officer. + +Mr. BELIN. Is that located in approximate location to this car in the +same relative position that you saw the blood when you were there, or +is it any different, if you know? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I was kind of excited there, a little bit, and I could be +mistaken, but I was thinking he was a little bit closer to the car than +that. + +Mr. BELIN. You thought he was a little bit closer to the car than that? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. I thought he was, but I could be mistaken. + +Mr. BELIN. Handing you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 529, +which shows a picture of a car and appears to be some kind of a stain +in the street, does that look to you any closer to the car than Exhibit +527, or does that look to be about the same place? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. It looks to be about the same place as that one there +does. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. You thought it was a little bit closer to the +front? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. All right. I thought it was. + +Mr. BELIN. Did the officer fall, did he fall forward or backward in any +way? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. He fell forward. + +Mr. BELIN. He fell forward? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where his head was lying as he fell forward, +if you know? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I wouldn't be sure about that. He kind of fell in a +crumpled manner, I would say. + +Mr. BELIN. When you saw the officer fall, when was the next place +that you saw the man, or did you see him at the same time you saw the +officer fall, the other man? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No. I saw him coming kind of toward me around that cutoff +through there, and he never did look at me. He looked back over his +left shoulder like that, as he went by. It seemed like I could see his +face, his features and everything plain, you see. + +Mr. BELIN. Was he walking or running or trotting? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Kind of loping, trotting. + +Mr. BELIN. Kind of loping or trotting? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Not in too big a hurry. It didn't seem like at first. + +Mr. BELIN. At first not too big a hurry? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he change that at all? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Never did change his pace as long as I saw him. I don't +know where he went after he passed the cab and got down a little piece, +because then I was busy trying to get my dispatcher, and I never did +look and never did get to see him. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he have anything in his hand? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. He had a pistol in his left hand. + +Mr. BELIN. Did the pistol appear to be--did he appear to be doing +anything with the pistol or not? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. He had it, holding it, in his left hand in a manner +that the barrel was up like this, and the stock was down here, curved +back in here. + +Mr. BELIN. Did it look like the gun had been flipped open at all or not? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I wouldn't say. + +Mr. BELIN. You don't know? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No; I don't. + +Mr. DULLES. You said he had it in his left hand? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see where his right hand was? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. He was kind of running, kind of like this, in this manner. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you hear the man say anything? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I heard him mutter something like, "poor damn cop," or +"poor dumb cop." He said that over twice, and the last, I don't know +whether the middle word was "damn" or "dumb," but anyway, he muttered +that twice. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you hear him say any other word or phrase? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you hear anyone else making any noise at about that time? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No; I didn't. Of course, there were people coming up +there, around there, but I didn't--I didn't notice any. + +Mr. BELIN. Recently in Dallas you were asked to go to the scene of the +Tippit shooting to try to reconstruct the positions of the various +people at this time; is that correct? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, yes; I was over there---- + +Mr. BELIN. And you parked your cab in what spot? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. There on Patton, facing 10th at approximately the place I +thought I was parked at, the reasonable area where I thought I was. I +wouldn't say I was exactly on that spot, but within a foot or so. + +Mr. BELIN. Does Exhibit 530 appear to be a picture of your cab at that +point? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. I also hand you Commission Exhibit 531 and ask you if there +is another view of your cab also at that same point? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; it appears to be. + +Mr. BELIN. You were there when those two pictures were taken? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir; I was there whenever they took some picture. I +couldn't swear these were the ones, but I imagine it was. + +Mr. BELIN. These are pictures numbered 7 and 22 in that sequence there. +Mr. Scoggins, at the time of November 22, 1963, were there as many cars +parked along Patton Street as appear to be in these Exhibits 530 and +531? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. There wasn't as many on this side here. + +Mr. BELIN. You are speaking now when you say "This side here," you are +pointing to the east or west side of the street? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. On the west side. + +Mr. BELIN. There weren't as many on the west side? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. There wasn't as many here as where the pickup truck is +setting here. + +Mr. BELIN. That would be down below the second or third car south of +East 10th, is that right. + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; on this other side it was taken up solid, and the +only place I could found is here is the reason I come up here and +parked, because the club is down here at this other end, and I would +have taken the first parking place I found because, you know, the +closest to the club. + +Mr. DULLES. As far as you know, there were no people in these cars that +were parked there? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No; there was no one in those cars. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see any people in any cars parked on either side of +Patton Street? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. None. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, handing you Exhibit 162, have you ever seen +any jacket on any person in that area of East 10th and Patton that +looks familiar to, or looks anything similar to this exhibit, or does +this appear to be lighter or darker than the jacket? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. It appears to be a little lighter, but the sleeves look +familiar all right, the type of sleeve. He had on a jacket, the type of +sleeve of that, but I thought it was a little darker. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether it was a zipper or button jacket or +don't you---- + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No; I couldn't tell you that. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what kind of trousers the man was wearing? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. The best I can remember they was dark, not too dark, and +he had on a light shirt. + +Mr. BELIN. A light shirt? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I wouldn't say it was white, but---- + +Mr. BELIN. Would the shirt be lighter than Exhibit 150 or about the +same color or darker or would Exhibit 150 look anything like the shirt +you thought he was wearing, if you know? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No, I don't, so I couldn't answer that. + +Mr. BELIN. And you say you don't know, or you think this is different +than what he was wearing? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I couldn't say about the shirt. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I just couldn't. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, when you were in Dallas the other day and they +took these pictures, they also tried to take a picture through your car +windows toward the place where the car of Officer Tippit was parked, is +that correct? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where the car of Officer Tippit was parked +on November 22d? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, it was parked approximately between the first and +second houses and across the driveway between the houses, pretty well +across the driveway. + +Mr. BELIN. Was it parked across a driveway? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. As well as I remember, it was. + +Mr. BELIN. Handing you what has been marked Exhibit 522, which purports +to be a picture taken of a squad car, and I don't know if you can see +through the window a little driveway---- + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Does that appear to be the driveway in front of which the +squad car was parked? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. Does that appear to be the two houses between which the +driveway ran? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. This would be the two houses--and the other one I +didn't know. + +Mr. BELIN. We have a magnifying glass here, and I believe with it we +might be able to see the number on that house. Can you see the number +over the doorway of that house? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. 404. + +Mr. BELIN. That would be which street? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. That would be on East 10th, on the south side. + +Mr. BELIN. This appears to be, or does not appear to be, the position +of the car on November 22? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; that appears to be the approximate position; I would +say it was. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, handing you what has been marked Exhibit 532, do you +remember when this picture was taken? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I remember the day. I don't remember the date of it. + +Mr. BELIN. But you remember it was taken? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I remember it was taken. + +Mr. BELIN. Sometime in March of this year? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. You saw the photographer point the camera through the window? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Is this about the view that you had toward the police car on +November 22d? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. As you were eating your lunch? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. And it appears that you can see through one of the windows +there the police car, is that correct? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Was the police car at the time Exhibit 532 was taken, was it +in the approximate same position that the car of Officer Tippit was on +November 22? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I would think so, yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, you saw the police car there? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Was it parked about in front of that driveway? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; I would say in the same area. You know, it may not +be on the same inch. + +Mr. BELIN. Within a foot or two? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you would take Exhibit 523 and see if there is +any number on Exhibit 523 which corresponds to the position of the man +who was walking along East 10th Street, or wherever he was when you +first saw him. + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Approximately where 16 is. + +Mr. BELIN. Yes; you are pointing to the position where the arrow is in +number 16? + +Mr. BALL. Mr. Belin, he didn't see him walking. + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I saw him there. + +Mr. BELIN. I used the word "walking." Pardon me. When you first saw him +he was on point 16. Where did you see him when you next saw him, where +did you see him when he moved? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. When I next saw him he was in the process of running up +10th Street. + +Mr. BELIN. You next saw him after the shooting then? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; I did. + +Mr. BELIN. About where was he on 10th Street when you next saw him? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. He was on the sidewalk when I saw him, about, I would +say, about--I am trying to figure out now--about number 21 or back a +little piece from 21. + +Mr. BELIN. Here is the squad car and 21 would be just east of the squad +car? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. You saw him there? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What was he doing when you saw him in the area of 21 in +Exhibit 523? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. He was proceeding west on 10th and had---- + +Mr. BELIN. All right. I wonder if you would just take this pen and on +Exhibit 523 mark the route that you think this man took. + +Mr. SCOGGINS. This is a sidewalk here. + +Mr. BELIN. That is the sidewalk. + +Mr. SCOGGINS. This is the house back here. + +Mr. BELIN. This is the corner house, this is the second house, this is +the third house, 400, 404, and 410. + +Mr. DULLES. What does that line show, Mr. Belin? + +Mr. BELIN. This is to show the movement of the man from point 21. + +Mr. DULLES. Along the sidewalk going west? + +Mr. BELIN. Yes. + +Mr. SCOGGINS. He ran to the point in the shrubbery. + +Mr. BELIN. Is that as far as you have seen him go? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. You have now marked by ink line commencing on Exhibit 523 to +a point that I will mark is the route that you believe you saw the man +take. Where were you when you saw him take this route? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. When I first saw him coming, you see, over here, I got +out of my cab and I started to cross the street to find a place to get +behind, and I got midway across the street, and then I got back and hid +behind the cab. I didn't see him in here, but I saw him when he hit the +shrubbery, when he hit that shrubbery. + +Mr. BELIN. There is an opening in part of that shrubbery? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, and I heard that when he hit that, and he was +looking over his left shoulder at that time. I first saw him and then I +got out---- + +Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you would show us on Exhibit 531, if you would +put an X there, the approximate location you were when you saw this man. + +Mr. SCOGGINS. When I first saw him? + +Mr. BELIN. No; when you first--yes, you can put where you first saw him. + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I was sitting inside my cab when I first saw him. + +Mr. BELIN. I mean after the shooting. + +Mr. SCOGGINS. After the shooting I guess when I first saw him, right +along about here. + +Mr. BELIN. All right, we are going to put--you had gotten out of your +car, and we are going to put a letter "A" with an arrow there. Where +were you when you saw him coming through the bushes, or by the bushes? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I was back there beside my cab. + +Mr. BELIN. You were still at that same point? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No, when I first saw him I left the cab and I went out to +the middle of the street. + +Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you first saw him and he was at the +point you marked, position 21 here on Exhibit 523? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Here. + +Mr. BELIN. At point "A." Then you went to the--you went out to the +street, in the street, and came back to point "A" on Exhibit 531--were +you standing or were you crouched? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I was kind of crouched down behind the cab. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. How did you see him if you were crouched? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, whenever he run through those bushes I looked up +again, you see. + +Mr. BELIN. You looked through your cab window? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I heard him--whenever I heard him hit those bushes---- + +Mr. BELIN. Did you stand or just look through your cab window? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I just looked and saw he was going down there. + +Mr. BELIN. About how close was this man to you when you saw him, the +closest when you saw him coming through the bushes, approximately. + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Oh, I would say from here to that chair down there. + +Mr. BELIN. Pardon? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. About that chair down there. + +Mr. BELIN. 12 feet? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. Referring to your tracing of the path that the man later +found to be Oswald followed, he went through the lower of these two +bushes there, did he? He went right through it? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. You see there is an opening in there. + +Mr. DULLES. But he didn't apparently take the opening, according to +this, because he went right through the bushes. + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, because I didn't see any opening in there. Was +there an opening in there? + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Dulles, for the record, when you are referring to 523, +there is an opening between the shrubbery, but within the shrubbery +itself there is an opening, and I think it will appear if you---- + +Mr. DULLES. I think the witness testified he heard the bushes move. + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Yes. But the opening within the bushes, is it a large +opening or a small opening between the bushes? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. It is not too large, but a man can get through very +easily by going through. + +Mr. DULLES. But he hits the bushes as he goes through? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. I see. That makes it clear. + +Mr. BELIN. It is not the wide opening between the two sets of bushes. + +Mr. DULLES. It is not quite as wide. + +Mr. SCOGGINS. It is an opening between the bushes themselves, like +maybe someone had planted three bushes and maybe one of them had died +to break the shrubbery. + +Mr. DULLES. That has happened to me. + +Mr. BELIN. What I am saying, Mr. Dulles, on Exhibit 523 there are two +groups of bushes. Within the lower group of bushes there is a slight +space to which the witness is referring. + +Mr. DULLES. I see. It is not the space here. + +Mr. BELIN. It is not the space between the two sets of bushes. + +Mr. DULLES. At this point do you recall whether he was running or +walking or what pace was he going at? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. He was going at a kind of lope. + +Mr. DULLES. Lope? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, what you might call a little trot. He did not seem +in too big a hurry, but he wasn't walking. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, you last saw the man when he was at the point +that you let the line stop at on Exhibit 523, is that correct? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. That would be in the approximate location. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I got on my radio. + +Mr. BELIN. And then you told us about calling your dispatcher? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I got back in my cab to call my dispatcher, you see. + +Mr. BELIN. Yes. + +Mr. SCOGGINS. And then I got out of the cab and run down there; the +ambulance had already arrived by the time I got there, and they were +in the process of picking the man up, and they had done had him, was +putting him on the stretcher when I got there, and they put him in the +ambulance and took him away, and there was someone that got on the +radio at that time and they told him he was going to report it, so they +told him to get off the air, that it had already been reported, and he +picks up the officer's pistol that was laying on the ground, apparently +fell out of his holster when he fell, and says, "Come on, let's go see +if we can find him." + +Mr. DULLES. Before you ask the next question, I wonder if I can ask one +question here. Do you know whether the ambulance came as a result of +the message you sent? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No, I sure don't. + +Mr. DULLES. You do not know? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No. + +Mr. DULLES. From the time angle, do you think that could have happened? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. It was awful fast if it did. They got there awfully +quickly if they did. + +Mr. DULLES. You don't know of any other warning going in; you put your +warning in, and that is all you know about it? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. That is all I know about it at that time, and I do know +this other gentleman called after I got up to the car, he called in, +and they told him it had already been. + +(Off the record discussion.) + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, I started to ask you about the revolver of the +policeman when you came and saw him. This was in his holster or on the +street? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. It was on the street whenever I saw it. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know where it was with relation to the policeman's +body? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. It was there pretty close to his body, you know, like +kind of under his body when they picked him up. It either fell out of +his holster or was laying on the ground, one, I don't know which. + +Mr. BELIN. What did you see him do? This man came up and picked up the +policeman's gun. He picked it up and said, "Let's go see if we can find +him?" + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I thought the man was a kind of police, Secret Service +or something, I didn't know, and I take him and we drove around over +the neighborhood looking, and I still didn't know what kind--I still +thought he was connected with the police department in some way. + +Mr. BELIN. What route did you take as you drove over the neighborhood? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I couldn't tell you. + +Mr. BELIN. You can't tell us the route you took over the neighborhood? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I was doing the driving and he was doing the directing. + +Mr. BELIN. He directed you where to go? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Actually, I couldn't say where he was going. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Representative FORD. Were you in your cab? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. + +Representative FORD. When you saw the pistol it wasn't in Officer +Tippit's hands? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No, sir; oh, he never did have a pistol in his hand, as +far as I know. + +Mr. BELIN. You saw him when he was falling? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he was holding his stomach. + +Mr. BELIN. You saw him holding his stomach as he fell? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he have anything in his hands? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. If he did I couldn't see it, and I don't think he ever +got to his pistol from what I saw. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see the man with the gun as he opened his gun, as he +was going to the west on--up 10th Street at all after the shooting? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No, I didn't see him. + +Mr. BELIN. After you went around to look for the man, did you find him +at all? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No. We drove around and asked several people, but we did +not see anybody that looked like him. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, by that time there was more policemen there than +you can shake a stick at. They were all over that place, and we stopped +the cab. + +Mr. BELIN. At about what time, do you know offhand? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. About 1:30, I guess, approximately 1:30; between 1:30 +and 1:35, I would say. We cruised around several blocks looking for +him, and we--one of these police cars came by and this fellow who was +with me stopped it, and we got back in the car and went back up to the +scene, and he give them the pistol, and that time is when I found out +he wasn't an officer. + +Mr. BELIN. Then what happened, or what did you do? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, they was questioning a lot of people and +questioning everybody, and they was talking, and so I went back and got +on my radio and contacted my supervisor, and they wanted me to come +into the office and make a statement, and so I did, the cab company. +One of the supervisors got a statement of it, and he asked me did the +police, did I give them a statement, and I told him no because, and he +said, "Well, why didn't you?" I said, "They didn't ask me. They talked +with everybody else." + +So the next day they took me down and put me through a lineup, showed +me a lineup of four people, and I identified the one that I had seen +the day before. + +Mr. BELIN. Now, let me ask you this question. First of all, do you +remember, or can you describe the man you saw on November 22 with the +gun? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. He was a medium-height fellow with, kind of a slender +look, and approximately, I said 25, 26 years old, somewhere along there. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the color of his hair? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. It was light; let's see, was it light or not--medium +brown, I would say. + +Mr. BELIN. Pardon? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Medium brown, I would say--now, wait a minute. Now, +medium brown or dark. + +Mr. BELIN. Medium brown or dark hair? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Was he a Negro or a white man? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. White, light complected, not real brown. + +Mr. BELIN. Was he fat, average build or thin? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No, he was slender; not real slender, but you know---- + +Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing glasses or not? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Pardon? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. That he had on? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Anything else you remember about him, the color of his shoes? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No, I can't say that. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember any jewelry he might have had on? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. You say you went down to the police station when, Mr. +Scoggins, approximately? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. You mean the time of day it was? + +Mr. BELIN. Was it the same day of the shooting or the next day? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No, it was the next day. + +Mr. BELIN. Morning, afternoon, or evening, if you remember? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, the best I can remember, they called me down from +the cab stand, the police came down to the office and picked me up. +Well, the other guy--I was close to the downtown area, and it didn't +take me long to get there, and I waited quite a while before the other +man, he was quite out a ways, and it was before dinner. + +Mr. BELIN. It was before dinner? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, whenever they called me in. + +Mr. BELIN. Would it have been on the afternoon of November 23, to the +best of your recollection? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. When they took me down there it was along about dinner +time. + +Representative FORD. What do you mean by dinner time? In various parts +of the country dinner and supper get confused a little bit. Was it the +noon meal or the evening meal? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. + +Representative FORD. Yes what? It was the noon meal? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. They took you down about the time of the noon meal, is that +correct; they took you to the police station? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I would think that would be about the time. + +Mr. BELIN. Sometime after you got there after the noon meal you saw the +lineup, is that correct? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. How many people were in the lineup, if you can remember? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Four. + +Mr. BELIN. Four? Did any one of the people look anything like--strike +that. Did you identify anyone in the lineup? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I identified the one we are talking about, Oswald. I +identified him. + +Mr. BELIN. You didn't know his name as Oswald at that time, did you, or +did you not? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, the next day I did. But, of course I didn't know +what his name was the day that I picked him out. + +Mr. BELIN. You saw a man in the lineup? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did anyone tell you any particular man was Oswald in the +lineup? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Well, describe what happened in the police station with +regard to the lineup, what they did to you, what they said to you, and +what you said to them, and so on. + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, they had the four men up there in the lineup, and +before they brought them in they told us what they wanted us to do, to +look them over and be sure we was, in our estimation, we was right on +the man, and which one it was, the one that we saw, the one that I saw. + +Mr. BELIN. Did they tell you one of the men was the man you saw or not, +or did they tell you "See if you can"--just what did they say? Did they +say "Here is a lineup, see if you can identify anyone," or did they +say, "One of the men in the lineup"---- + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, I believe those are the words they used. I am not---- + +Mr. BELIN. Did all of these men look different to you? Were most of +them fat, or were most of them thin, or some fat, some thin, some tall, +some short? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. There were two of them--the one that I identified as the +one I saw over at Oak Cliff, and there was one I saw similar to him, +and the other two was a little bit shorter. + +Mr. DULLES. Had you been looking at television or seeing television +prior to your appearance here at the lineup? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No. + +Mr. DULLES. You had not? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No, sir. + +Representative FORD. Had you been working this Saturday morning with +your cab? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. In other words, you went to work Saturday morning +at the regular time? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. + +Representative FORD. And were working when they asked you to come down +to the cab stand to go over to the police station? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. All right. + +Mr. BELIN. Had you seen any pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald in the +newspapers prior to the time you went to the police station lineup? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I think I saw one in the morning paper. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you subscribe to the morning or evening paper? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I take the evening paper myself. + +Mr. BELIN. You went down and bought a morning paper? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No; I didn't go out. I was looking at one of the--some of +the cab drivers had it. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see any television picture on the morning of +November 23 of Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I have never until this day seen it. + +Mr. BELIN. On television? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I never have. + +Representative FORD. Do you have a television in your home? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes sir; I do. But I don't--when I get home I will read +the paper, and after you work about 12 hours you don't feel like +fooling around with television too much. + +Mr. BELIN. What number man in the lineup did you identify as having +seen on November 22? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Number 3. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you have the man turn around, or could you---- + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, they turned him around. + +Mr. BELIN. Did they turn just one man around or all of them? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No; they had them all. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if the number 3 man in the lineup was +wearing the same clothes that the man you saw at the Tippit shooting +wore? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. He had on a different shirt, and he didn't have a jacket +on. He had on kind of a polo shirt. + +Mr. BELIN. Before you went to view the lineup, did any of the police +officers show you a picture of this man? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Sometime later, after the lineup, did any investigator come +up to you with a picture of anyone and ask you if you could identify +him? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if he was an FBI man or a Dallas policeman +or a Secret Service agent? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. He was an FBI or a Secret Service. + +Mr. BELIN. What did he ask you and what did you tell him? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. He gave me some pictures, showed me several pictures +there, which was, some of them were, pretty well resembled him, +and some of them didn't, and they looked like they was kind of old +pictures, and I think I picked the wrong picture. I am not too---- + +Mr. BELIN. What did he say to you and what did you say to him, if you +remember? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I don't really--I know he showed me his credentials. + +Mr. BELIN. Did he say to you something like "These are pictures we have +of Lee Harvey Oswald"? Did he use that name in front of you, or did he +say, "Here are some pictures. See if you can identify them"--if you +remember? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I don't remember, but after I got through looking at them +and everything, and I says, I told them one of these two pictures is +him, out of this group he showed me, and the one that was actually him +looked like an older man than he was to me. Of course, I am not too +much on identifying pictures. It wasn't a full shot of him, you know, +and then he told me the other one was Oswald. + +Representative FORD. Had you narrowed the number of pictures from more +than two to two? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. + +Representative FORD. In other words, they showed you pictures of how +many people altogether, how many different people, your best estimate? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I would say 4 or 5. + +Representative FORD. And you narrowed the number of 4 or 5 down to 2? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Down to two; yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, at the time of the shooting, did you see any +pedestrians standing at the corner of East 10th and Patton, any of the +corners there? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I didn't see anybody. I was kind of excited. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you see any other person walking along the street there? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Not at the time of the shooting, I didn't. + +Mr. BELIN. Is there anything you can think of that you haven't told +us here that might be relevant to what you saw in connection with the +Tippit shooting? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No, I can't--nothing that I know of. That is the first +time I ever seen anything like that happen, and I was pretty well +excited and mixed up, and not knowing what to do or what not to do. But +actually, of course, right after the shooting, I saw a number of people +come running over, you see, from everywhere. + +Mr. BELIN. Were they all men? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No, they were just people. + +Mr. BELIN. General Carr, do you have any questions? + +Mr. CARR. No, sir. I was exploring with him, but I guess we won't get +into it. + +Mr. BELIN. Those are all the questions I have. Just a second. When +you saw a picture in the morning paper of Lee Harvey Oswald, did this +look similar to the man you saw at the Tippit shooting, or did it look +different? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I would say similar; yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Did it look like the same man? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. + +Representative FORD. What kind of eyesight do you have? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I had my eyes examined when I went to work for the cab +company and the lady said I had remarkable eyesight. You know, they +have--after I went to work, after a while, I had to go get my eyes +examined. + +Representative FORD. You had your eyes examined subsequent to your +employment with the cab company? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, it was sometime after, maybe 6 months after. + +Mr. DULLES. How many years ago was that? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Oh, about a year, approximately. + +Representative FORD. At that time what did the eye examiner tell you? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. She said I had excellent eyesight and vision. + +Representative FORD. You don't wear glasses? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No. + +Representative FORD. What about your hearing? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I can hear. I got good hearing. I never did have it +examined or anything, but I can hear everything. + +Representative FORD. Have you ever had any difficulty with the law, +have you ever had any trouble with officers of the law? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I got a ticket for parking that I had to pay. + +Representative FORD. That is a traffic violation. + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. No; I really haven't had any problems that amount to +anything otherwise than traffic violations. + +Representative FORD. Nothing other than traffic violations? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I was picked up one time in New York City for +stowing away on a tugboat. + +Mr. BELIN. Stowing away on a boat? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Actually what happened---- + +Mr. DULLES. How old were you then? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. 17 or 18. I was sleeping in a boxcar and they put that +boxcar on a tugboat and sent it across the river. + +Mr. DULLES. You stowed away without knowing it. + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. I don't think that is a very grave offense. + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No. I never have been in any grave trouble. + +Mr. BELIN. One more question, Mr. Scoggins. You rode up here to +Washington on an airplane with Mrs. Markham, did you not? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Before you saw Mrs. Markham the other day, did you ever +recognize her as having seen her from the time of the Tippit shooting +at all or not? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, I saw her down there talking to the policemen after +I came back. You see. I saw her talking to them. + +Mr. BELIN. You never actually saw her standing on the street, did you? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I never actually observed her there. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. + +Mr. DULLES. When you say, "I came back" is that when you got into your +car? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. After I had got in the car and toured the neighborhood +and then the policemen came along and I left my cab setting down there +and got in a car with them and left the scene. + +Mr. DULLES. At what stage did you see Mrs. Markham? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. After I had gotten back up there. After I had drove +around in the neighborhood looking for Oswald or looking for this guy. + +Mr. DULLES. It was after that? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. It was after that. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, when you identified the man in the lineup at +the police station on November 23, was there any other person who at +the same time was asked to identify a man in that lineup? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, one other. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know--one other person? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know what that man's name is or what his occupation +is? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, he drives a taxicab. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you know his name? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; his name is Bill Whaley. + +Mr. BELIN. Whaley? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I think it is Whaley. I didn't know him from Adam until +that day, you know, and he said his name was Whaley. + +Mr. BELIN. When you were there and identified a man, had Whaley already +identified that man or not? I mean, did you hear Whaley or see Whaley +identify that man? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No. He was sitting over on my left. + +Mr. BELIN. He was on your left? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. It was dark. They turned the lights out where we +were sitting. We could see the man with lights up there. + +Mr. BELIN. Could you see Mr. Whaley at the time he made the +identification? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I suppose if I would have looked over there I could +have seen that there was a man there, that I could have recognized him. + +Mr. BELIN. Were you looking at Mr. Whaley at the time? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Did you make your identification by your voice or by your +hands? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. By my hands, using--I put up three fingers. + +Mr. BELIN. Did they tell you ahead of time to hold up the number of +fingers for the man that you saw? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BELIN. How many fingers did you hold up? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Three. + +Mr. BELIN. At the time you held up your three fingers, did you know how +many fingers Mr. Whaley was holding up? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No. + +Mr. BELIN. Then did you know whether or not Mr. Whaley had identified +the man? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No, I sure don't. + +Mr. BELIN. Was there any person or were there any persons standing +between you and Mr. Whaley? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. That I don't know because I did not look over there. + +Mr. DULLES. Could Mr. Whaley, in your opinion, see you holding up these +fingers? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No, no. I made sure of that because I had my hand down +like this. + +Mr. BELIN. When you had your hand down you are putting it in front of +your belt? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. As well as I could remember I had it down kind of like +this here. I don't know whether I used my right or my left hand, but I +didn't hold up three fingers like this, but I held them down just about +like this. + +Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to your right hand and putting it somewhat +about a few inches above the buckle of your belt; is that about where +you held up your fingers? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. About as well as I could remember. + +Mr. BELIN. What happened after you held up your fingers, did someone +see you holding your fingers up there? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. + +Representative FORD. Where were they standing beside you so that they +could see your fingers? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, this gentleman was standing over back a piece to my +left, sir. + +Representative FORD. Was it close to you, sir? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. There was one man on my right. He was Secret Service or +FBI, I think FBI; and the other man was a policeman, Dallas policeman. + +Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether Mr. Whaley was making his +identification at the same time that you did or did he make it before +or after? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No. All I know is that we viewed them at the same time. + +Mr. DULLES. He viewed them at the same time? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. You don't know at what time Mr. Whaley made his +identification? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. You didn't see him make the identification? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I didn't even see him. + +Mr. DULLES. You don't know what his identification was? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No. I never asked him which one or nothing, because I +never did discuss it with him at all after that. + +Representative FORD. When you brought your cab up to the corner of 10th +and Patton, did you just conclude or had you just concluded dropping a +passenger? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, approximately five minutes before that. + +Representative FORD. Do you keep a record of the trips that you take? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. During your working day? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. If I pick up a passenger, say, like 28 minutes +to 12 o'clock, we put 20 minutes to 12. We don't put the odd minutes +down. + +If we let him out 2 minutes after 12, we put down 12 o'clock. I know I +let him out at 1 o'clock, maybe a minute or two after. We do put the +destination we leave from and the destination he is going to on our +records sheet. + +Representative FORD. What does your record show about this last trip? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I picked him up at Love Field and carried him to +321 North Ewing, as well as I can remember now, that was the address. + +Representative FORD. And your record shows that? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. When I picked him up, the mileage started from, the +mileage I let him out on the speedometer. When I picked him up we put +the mileage down. We don't put the tenth down, and when we let him out +we put the mileage and the time; and when we pick him up we put the +mileage and the time, and the destination where we start and where we +let him off, and the amount the fare was. + +Representative FORD. And your last entry shows what for that day? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I don't know what the last entry was. Up until then that +was the one where I let the man off at. It was an apartment building. +Of course, I don't have the apartment number, anything like that. The +guy says, "I want to go to 321 North Ewing," and that is where I take +him. It is an apartment. Of course now, if somebody calls in for a cab +at a certain address, if it is an apartment, they have to give their +apartment number so we could find it. + +Representative FORD. How far was this last destination to the point of +10th and Patton? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. It was less than a mile, about a half mile or +maybe--well, let's see, it was closer to a mile, I would say. + +Representative FORD. Was there any particular reason why you went to +the corner of 10th and Patton? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. I belong to that club there, and I was going around +there to get me a coca cola that I could have gotten anywhere else, but +I know a lot of the guys. + +Representative FORD. What is the club called? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. It is a gentleman's club, a domino parlor where we play +dominos. + +Representative FORD. It is at what address? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. 123 or 125 South Patton. + +Mr. BELIN. About where is it in relation to East 10th and Patton, how +far away, a block, two blocks? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. It is not a block. It is just about, I would say, +just--if it was measured it would be a little over a half block from +where I was parked at to the place, you see. + +Mr. BELIN. I wonder, perhaps, if we can see it on any of these +pictures, Mr. Scoggins. Do you see it in this picture, Exhibit 530? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; I can see the building. + +Mr. BELIN. Let's see the building here. + +Mr. SCOGGINS. That is it up there. + +Mr. BELIN. I wonder if we can't, perhaps, put on Exhibit 530 an arrow +which points to this building, and we will put "G" for the gentleman's +club; is that correct? Is that the building to which you are referring? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, we have another picture that we would like to +have you identify, Commission Exhibit 534. This is a picture in which +the camera appears to be heading in what direction? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. It would be heading east--I mean west on 10th Street. + +Mr. BELIN. That picture was taken the other day at the time you drove +your cab back to that scene, is that correct? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. I would think it was; yes. + +Mr. BELIN. Does this appear to be the position your cab was in at the +time of the shooting of Officer Tippit? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. + +Mr. BELIN. All right. At this time we offer and introduce into evidence +all exhibits up through 534, except we do not have a 533 because we +renumbered the original Exhibit 533, so we do not have a 533. + +Do you have anything more, Congressman Ford? + +Representative FORD. Those exhibits will be admitted. + +(Items identified as Commission Exhibits through No. 534, with the +exception of Exhibit No. 533, were admitted in evidence.) + +Mr. DULLES. Mr. Scoggins, you have referred, I believe, to a +conversation you had with Mr. Whaley, I think his name is, and I would +like to have you just recount what you recall of what Mr. Whaley said +to you, and where he said it, and at what time. + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Well now, this conversation we are talking about, while +we were down there waiting. + +Mr. DULLES. Down where, down at the police station? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No; down at the cab office--it is a cab office at 610 +South Akard Street, you know. + +Mr. DULLES. A cab stand? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. We call it our main office. + +Mr. DULLES. And Mr. Whaley's cab belonged to the same company as your +cab? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. Only he drives out of downtown, which office is +610 South Akard Street, that is the number. They have a building there, +a large building, with all the dispatching offices and everything, and +mine, of course, I have got the same dispatchers, we all belong to the +same company. I drive an Oak Cliff cab, and he drives downtown. + +Mr. DULLES. Relate what Mr. Whaley said to you. + +Mr. SCOGGINS. He didn't relate it to me. He was talking to the others. + +Mr. DULLES. He was talking to cabdrivers? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. He was talking to one of the---- + +Mr. DULLES. Where did this take place? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. It was down at the cabstand. + +Mr. DULLES. Was this on Saturday after the assassination? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. And he was telling them where he picked him up and where +he took him to. + +Mr. DULLES. And that is what you recall? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; because I didn't know him. I wasn't acquainted with +the man. + +Mr. DULLES. You were not acquainted with Mr. Whaley? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. No. Before he came down there that morning I wouldn't +have known him from Adam, you know, just wouldn't have had any idea who +he was. + +Mr. DULLES. Would you recall what he said as to where he picked up the +man and where he took him? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. He said he picked him up at the Greyhound bus and carried +him to a neighborhood, no particular address, on North Beckley, the 500 +block. + +Mr. DULLES. Have you anything more on that, Mr. Belin? + +Mr. BELIN. No, sir. I do have one other question. + +Mr. DULLES. Proceed then. + +Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not your dispatcher recorded +any time on his sheets as to the time you called in after the Tippit +shooting? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. When I was down there giving my statement to my +supervisor, he asked me what time it was, and I said I don't have any +idea, so he picked up the phone and called the dispatcher, and he said +it was 1:23. + +Mr. BELIN. That is the time that he recorded it? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. He must have recorded it up there because he said it +was 1:23 in the afternoon. + +Mr. BELIN. When you called in after the shooting? + +Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. Anything else? + +Mr. BELIN. No, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Any further questions? Well, thank you very much, Mr. +Scoggins. + + +TESTIMONY OF HELEN MARKHAM RESUMED + +Mr. DULLES. You were sworn when you previously were before us, and this +testimony of yours will be covered by the oath you previously have +given. Will you be seated? + +Mr. BALL. I have two Commission Exhibits, 535 and 536. I will show them +to you, Mrs. Markham, and I will ask you if you have ever seen the man +who is pictured there, whose picture is shown on these two exhibits. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No. + +Mr. BALL. Never have seen him before. Do you think he might have been +one of the men you talked to before? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, no. + +Mr. BALL. They are pictures of the same man. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No. + +Mr. DULLES. We are inquiring whether you had ever seen him after the +assassination. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I know. No; not this man. This man I have never +seen--I have never seen this man in my life. + +Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. + +Mr. DULLES. Do you know who he is? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I don't. It is just a picture of a man; I don't know +him. + +Mr. DULLES. Mr. Ball, do you have any further questions? + +Mr. BALL. No further questions. + +Representative FORD. Have you ever had any difficulty with the law, +Mrs. Markham? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No. + +Representative FORD. None whatsoever? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. + +Representative FORD. Traffic violations? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. You are lucky. + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I have never been in trouble. + +Representative FORD. No difficulties whatsoever with the law? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. That is all, Mrs. Markham. You can be excused. + +Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much, Mrs. Markham. + +Mr. BALL. I offer Exhibits 535 and 536 in evidence at this time. + +Mr. DULLES. They will be received. + +(The items identified as Commission Exhibits Nos. 535 and 536 were +received in evidence.) + +Mr. BALL. They were taken from a newspaper, they were taken from +newspaper accounts which purported to be, to show, the picture of a man +named Mark Lane. + +Mr. DULLES. Yes, because he appeared before this Commission, did he not? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. Mr. Redlich, can you identify him? Were you present when +Mr. Lane appeared before this Commission? + +Mr. REDLICH. Yes; I was. + +Mr. DULLES. Can you identify these pictures as pictures of Mr. Lane? + +Mr. REDLICH. Yes; I can identify these as pictures of Mr. Lane. I would +also like for the record to indicate where they came from. Commission +Exhibit No. 535 is taken from--Commission Exhibit 536 came from the San +Francisco Chronicle, and dated February 8, 1964, and purports to be a +photograph of Mark Lane. + +Commission No. 535 is a photograph from a newspaper clipping which was +in the Commission files, and it is an Associated Press photograph, and +appeared, it is taken from the New York Herald Tribune of March 5, +1964, and purports to be a photograph of Mark Lane. I have met Mr. Lane +once or twice prior to his appearance before this Commission, and I was +present during his testimony before this Commission. + +Mr. DULLES. You identify these as pictures of Mr. Lane? + +Mr. REDLICH. These are photographs of Mark Lane. + +Mr. DULLES. And these Exhibits 535 and 536 were the exhibits which were +presented to Mrs. Markham? + +Mr. BELIN. I think the record should show how they were presented. They +were clipped out so there was not any writing or anything to indicate +whom they were pictures of on their face. + +Mr. DULLES. That is on the record. + +Mrs. Markham, there is a short question that Congressman Ford wanted to +put to you. + +Representative FORD. What kind of eyesight do you have, Mrs. Markham? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. I have always had good eyesight. + +Representative FORD. Do you wear glasses? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I don't. + +Representative FORD. Have your eyes tested recently? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I haven't. I have no cause to. + +Representative FORD. You have never worn glasses in your lifetime? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. No. + +Mr. DULLES. Are you farsighted, nearsighted, or neither, just +good-sighted? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Just good-sighted. I did a lot of writing and a cashier +and everything. I see pretty good. + +Representative FORD. If you go to a movie can you see the picture +easily and well? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Oh, yes; yes, sir; real well. + +Representative FORD. You can see things at a distance quite well? + +Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. I have never had glasses. + +Representative FORD. Thank you very much. + + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. BARBARA JEANETTE DAVIS + +Mr. BALL. Mrs. Davis, you didn't get the notice through the mail asking +you to appear here? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. We told you orally in Washington, or in Dallas last Friday, +didn't we? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. She has not been sworn. Will you kindly raise your right +hand? Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give to this +Commission is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so +help you God? + +Mrs. DAVIS. I do. + +Mr. BALL. Mrs. Davis, you didn't get a letter from the Commission +asking you to appear here? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. But when Mr. Belin and I were in Dallas on Friday of last +week we asked you to appear? + +Mrs. DAVIS. On Saturday. + +Mr. BALL. On Saturday, was it? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. That is right. And you voluntarily agreed to come up here, +didn't you? + +Mrs. DAVIS. That is right. + +Mr. BALL. Without any notice from the Commission? + +Mrs. DAVIS. That is right. + +Mr. BALL. Where do you live? + +Mr. DULLES. May we thank you for that. + +Mrs. DAVIS. Athens, Tex. + +Mr. BALL. Where do you live? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Athens, Tex. + +Mr. BALL. You are married, are you? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. You have some children? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Two. + +Mr. BALL. What is your husband's name? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Troy. + +Mr. BALL. Troy Davis? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Troy Lee Davis. + +Mr. BALL. What is your business or what is his business? + +Mrs. DAVIS. He is a roofer. + +Mr. BALL. Beg pardon? + +Mrs. DAVIS. He is a roofer. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you born, Mrs. Davis? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Athens. + +Mr. BALL. Athens? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Live there all your life? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; part of it I have lived in Dallas some. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Athens. + +Mr. BALL. How far through school did you go? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Halfway through the 10th midterm. + +Mr. BALL. Then did you get married? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. You were living in Dallas on November 22, were you? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What was your address there in Dallas? + +Mrs. DAVIS. 400 East 10th. + +Mr. BALL. Who was living with you at that time? + +Mrs. DAVIS. You mean in the apartment or in the building? + +Mr. BALL. In the apartment with you. + +Mrs. DAVIS. Just my husband and two children. + +Mr. BALL. You had a sister, did you? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Sister-in-law. + +Mr. BALL. What is her name? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Virginia. + +Mr. BALL. Was she living there at the time, too? + +Mrs. DAVIS. They lived around the side of the apartment house. + +Mr. BALL. In the same building? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. That was your husband's sister? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No; it was my husband's brother's wife. + +Mr. BALL. Husband's brother's wife. I see. + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. I have got some pictures here so we will understand. I will +show you Exhibit 525. Is the house in which you were living on November +22d shown in the picture? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Here. + +Mr. BALL. It is the one on the corner? The southeast corner of 10th and +Patton, isn't it? + +Mrs. DAVIS. I don't know anything about that, but I know where it is. + +Mr. BALL. I will show you Commission Exhibit 524. Is the house shown in +that picture? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; sir. + +Mr. BALL. And I show you 534, is the house shown in that picture? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I am showing you 528 and there is a lawn there, that is the +lawn of what house? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Of the house I lived in. + +Mr. BALL. The house you lived in. + +On that day did something unusual happen that you observed, on November +22d? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Those gunshots. + +Mr. BALL. Gunshots? Where were you when you heard gunshots? + +Mrs. DAVIS. In bed. + +Mr. DULLES. Did you say gunshot or gunshots? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Shots. + +Mr. DULLES. Plural? How many did you hear? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Just two, they were pretty close together. + +Mr. BALL. You were lying on the bed. What did you do? + +Mrs. DAVIS. I got up, put my shoes on to see what it was. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever go outdoors? + +Mrs. DAVIS. At first, I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. When you went to the door, did you open the door? + +Mrs. DAVIS. I opened the door and held the screen opened. + +Mr. BALL. What did you see? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Mrs. Markham standing across the street over there, and she +was standing over there and the man was coming across the yard. + +Mr. BALL. A man was coming across what yard? + +Mrs. DAVIS. My yard. + +Mr. BALL. And what did you see the man doing? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Well, first off she went to screaming before I had paid too +much attention to him, and pointing at him, and he was, what I thought, +was emptying the gun. + +Mr. BALL. He had a gun in his hand? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And he was emptying it? + +Mrs. DAVIS. It was open and he had his hands cocked like he was +emptying it. + +Mr. DULLES. Which hand did he have it? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Right hand. + +Mr. BALL. To his left palm? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see him throw anything away? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do next? + +Mrs. DAVIS. He looked at her first and looked at me and then smiled and +went around the corner. + +Mr. BALL. Was he running or walking? + +Mrs. DAVIS. He was walking at his normal pace. + +Mr. BALL. And he went around the corner? + +Did he go on the sidewalk? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. He was on the sidewalk right beside the house. + +Mr. BALL. Did he go, did he cut across your lawn at all? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Where? + +Mrs. DAVIS. He cut across the middle of the yard. + +Mr. BALL. Here is a diagram, 523, this is 400--that is your home. + +Mrs. DAVIS. He came right across like this. + +Mr. BALL. Came across like this? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Ran beside the sidewalk. + +Mr. BALL. There is already a mark on there. + +Mrs. DAVIS. He left the sidewalk about here, just on the other side of +this. + +Mr. BALL. Well, mark on the picture now, photo 21 which is Commission +Exhibit 534, and you just take this and mark with it and show where he +left the sidewalk and what course he took. + +Mrs. DAVIS. He was just parallel to the side of this and right around +this little bush and around the corner. + +Mr. BALL. Around the corner? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. The black mark from the sidewalk on 534 marks the course that +the man took? + +Representative FORD. Could you tell us where you were standing when you +saw him? + +Mrs. DAVIS. I was standing on the porch. + +Mr. BALL. Put an "X" there. + +Mrs. DAVIS. I can't see the porch. The door is right between these two +things here. + +Mr. BALL. These two things--what do you mean? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Between the two posts. + +Mr. BALL. Two posts? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Let's get a better view. + +Mr. DULLES. It seems to be the best. + +Mr. BALL. You are right. + +That is 525. + +Now mark where he cut across on that with a line. + +Mrs. DAVIS. Right across like this, only it would be on the other side +of the bushes here. + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +And where were you? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Standing right--here is the door right here. + +Mr. BALL. Put an "X" there. That "X" is a mark to locate your position +and we will give a symbol to it. "D." Now, the line you have drawn from +the sidewalk through the bushes is the course the man took. Where was +he when you saw him emptying his gun? + +Mrs. DAVIS. He was right here on the other side of this bush. + +Mr. BALL. Draw a line through the course there. + +Mrs. DAVIS. Just about along in here. + +Mr. DULLES. Did you know at the time he was emptying his gun? + +Mrs. DAVIS. That is what I presumed because he had it open and was +shaking it. + +Mr. DULLES. I see. Just right there. + +Mr. BALL. In other words, there is a cross you make across the line +that he took which marks the place where he was emptying the gun. + +Mrs. DAVIS. Just about halfway there. + +Mr. BALL. Mark it also on 21, 534. + +Mrs. DAVIS. Not quite half, not quite to the bushes there. + +Representative FORD. Mr. Ball, even though she cannot pinpoint the +point where she was standing because of the photograph, she might draw +an arrow showing about where she was standing. + +Mr. BALL. Show an arrow about where you were standing. + +Mrs. DAVIS. About there. + +Mr. BALL. That is 21, photo 21 and Commission Exhibit 534. + +After the man left, what did you do, after he went out of sight what +did you do? + +Mrs. DAVIS. I went back in and phoned the police. + +Mr. BALL. Then what did you tell the police? + +Mrs. DAVIS. I just told them that a policeman had been shot. + +Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? + +Mrs. DAVIS. I came back outside and walked down to where the +policeman's car was out. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see the policeman? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Where was he? + +Mrs. DAVIS. He was laying on the left-hand side of the car on the +ground, by the left-hand fender. + +Mr. BALL. Was he alive or what? + +Mrs. DAVIS. I don't know. + +Mr. BALL. Did he talk? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't know whether he was alive or dead? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; I didn't get that close. + +Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Not 5 minutes, I would imagine, because the police cars +started coming, so I went back to my yard. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see a man coming and get the policeman's gun? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Did you later look in the bushes and find something? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; in the grass beside the house. + +Mr. BALL. The grass beside the house. What did you find? + +Mrs. DAVIS. We found one shell. + +Mr. BALL. One shell? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And your sister-in-law, did your sister-in-law find something +else? + +Mrs. DAVIS. She found one later in the afternoon. + +Mr. BALL. One, later? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Can you show me on one of these pictures here where you found +one shell? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Under the window here. That would be the only one I could +tell. + +Mr. BALL. The only one that shows, it is photo 3, it is Commission +Exhibit 534. Draw an arrow down. + +Mrs. DAVIS. Right Under that window there. + +Mr. BALL. Under that window. + +The arrow which is marked "D-1" shows the position where you found one +shell. Did you see your sister-in-law find the other shell? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Where was that found? + +Mrs. DAVIS. There is a little cement walk right here by her door, it +was right there, not too far from there. + +Mr. BALL. Could you draw an arrow down to show the approximate position? + +Mrs. DAVIS. It was almost in front of her door, there is a little +cement porch to step up to her door. + +Mr. BALL. The arrow which we marked as "D-2" marks the place where your +sister-in-law found the second shell? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. You only found two shells, did you, you one and your +sister-in-law one? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What time of day did you find the one shell? + +Mrs. DAVIS. I don't know. This was probably an hour and a half, maybe 2 +hours, after the officer was shot. + +Mr. BALL. What time of day did your sister-in-law find her shell, find +the shell that she found? + +Mr. DAVIS. Somewhere around 4:30, 5, somewhere in there. + +Mr. BALL. Did you later go down to the police station? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Were you shown a group of people in the police station and +asked if you could identify the man? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Were you alone in that room when you were shown these people? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Who was with you? + +Mrs. DAVIS. My husband, my sister-in-law was with me, and some other +men. + +Mr. BALL. That is your husband Troy, your sister-in-law Virginia Davis, +and yourself, and other men? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you know those men? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Were police officers there? + +Mrs. DAVIS. They were all in suits, some sat at the back of the room. + +Mr. BALL. When those--how many men were shown to you in this lineup? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Four. + +Mr. BALL. Were they of the same size or of different sizes? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Most of them was about the same size. + +Mr. BALL. All white men, were they? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did you recognize anyone in that room? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. I recognized number 2. + +Mr. BALL. Number 2 you recognized? Did you tell any policeman there +anything after you recognized them? + +Mrs. DAVIS. I told the man who had brought us down there. + +Mr. BALL. What did you tell him? + +Mrs. DAVIS. That I thought number 2 was the man that I saw. + +Mr. BALL. That you saw? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. By number 2, was the man you saw the man you saw doing what? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Unloading the gun. + +Mr. BALL. And going across your yard? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. That was about what time of day that you were at the lineup? + +Mrs. DAVIS. It was after 8, I am sure. + +Mr. BALL. After when? + +Mrs. DAVIS. After 8 o'clock. + +Mr. BALL. On what day? + +Mrs. DAVIS. On Friday, the same day. + +Mr. BALL. The same day? It was after 8 o'clock on Friday, the same day +that you had seen the man unloading the gun? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Have you any way of fixing the time of when the man ran +across your lawn, approximately? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; not exactly because I had laid down with the +children and I didn't pay any attention to what time it was. + +Representative FORD. You saw him take the shells out of the gun? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; he was shaking them. + +Representative FORD. He was shaking them? + +Mrs. DAVIS. He was shaking them. I didn't see him actually use his hand +to take them out. I mean he was sort of shaking them out. + +Representative FORD. Did you find this one bullet at the point where +you saw him shake the gun? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; it was around the side of the house. + +Representative FORD. About how many feet? + +Mrs. DAVIS. I don't know. Not too far. + +Representative FORD. But he had moved from the one point to where you +found the bullets? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. Yes. + +Mrs. DAVIS. That is where they started looking for it. + +Representative FORD. I meant the shells rather than the bullets. + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Was he dressed the same in the lineup as he was when you saw +him running across the lawn? + +Mrs. DAVIS. All except he didn't have a black coat on when I saw him in +the lineup. + +Mr. BALL. Did he have a coat on when you saw him? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What color coat? + +Mrs. DAVIS. A dark coat. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did you recognize him from his face or from his clothes +when you saw him in the lineup? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Well, I looked at his clothes and then his face from the +side because I had seen him from a side view of him. I didn't see him +fullface. + +Mr. BALL. Now answer the question. Did you recognize him from seeing +his face or from his clothes? + +Mrs. DAVIS. From his face because that was all I was looking at. + +Mr. BALL. I see. Now, when you heard the shots you were lying down, +were you? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Was anyone lying with you? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Virginia was laying on the couch. + +Mr. BALL. In the same room with you? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did she go to the door with you when you went to the door? + +Mrs. DAVIS. She went right behind me. + +Mr. BALL. I have a jacket, I would like to show you, which is +Commission Exhibit No. 162. Does this look anything like the jacket +that the man had on that was going across your lawn? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How is it different? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Well, it was dark and to me it looked like it was maybe a +wool fabric, it looked sort of rough. Like more of a sporting jacket. + +Mr. BALL. I show you a shirt which is Commission Exhibit No. 150. Was +that--does that shirt look anything like something he had on, that the +man had on who went across your lawn? + +Mrs. DAVIS. I thought that the shirt he had on was lighter than that. + +Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. Where was Mrs. Markham when you +first saw her? + +Mrs. DAVIS. She was standing right here on this corner. + +Mr. BALL. That picture? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. That picture that you refer to is photo number 3, Commission +Exhibit 524. + +It is as shown on the corner here, as the woman who is shown in the +corner? + +Mrs. DAVIS. That was her position. + +Representative FORD. Do you wear glasses, Mrs. Davis? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. + +Representative FORD. Have you had your eyes examined recently? + +Mrs. DAVIS. I believe it was in October when I applied for some +driver's license. + +Representative FORD. In October of 1963? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Representative FORD. You applied for a driver's license? + +Mrs. DAVIS. I believe it was the first--some time in October, I believe. + +Representative FORD. When you applied for a driver's license in Texas +you have to take an examination? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. And you did take one? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. Did they recommend that you wear glasses? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. He said my eyes are all right. + +Representative FORD. He said your eyes were all right? + +Mr. DULLES. Have you had any problems with the law at any time? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Except for traffic violations? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No. + +Mr. DULLES. Thank you. What is your husband's occupation? + +Mrs. DAVIS. He is a roofer. + +Mr. DULLES. What? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Puts shingles and roofs on houses. + +Mr. DULLES. Oh, yes, surely. + +Mr. BALL. Mrs. Davis, before you went down to look at the man at +the police station at 8 o'clock that night, had you seen television +pictures of the man on television that he had been arrested? + +Mrs. DAVIS. As far as I can remember I don't remember seeing it because +I was out in the yard all the time that was going on, and I don't +believe the TV was on. + +Mr. BALL. Before you saw the man in the lineup were you shown a picture +of any man by a police officer? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you read a newspaper and see any pictures in a newspaper, +picture of a man in the newspaper, before you went down there? + +Mrs. DAVIS. I don't really know. I couldn't be quite sure. I can't +remember whether I did or not. + +Mr. BALL. Do you take an evening or a morning paper? + +Mrs. DAVIS. We take an afternoon paper, we took an afternoon paper then. + +Mr. BALL. Do you recall whether or not you did see a picture in the +paper of the man? + +Mrs. DAVIS. I don't remember. I don't even remember whether I read it +or not. There was so much excitement. + +Mr. BALL. When the man ran over the lawn, can you give me an estimate +of how far away he was from you? + +Mrs. DAVIS. I can't. + +Mr. BALL. Make a judgment about it as to this room. Is it as far away +from you to me? + +Mrs. DAVIS. It was about as far as here to the corner of the room out +there, or just a little bit more, the far corner. + +Representative FORD. Just a little less, did you say? + +Mrs. DAVIS. About like that. + +Mr. BELIN. About seven or eight steps? + +Mr. BALL. About 20, 25 feet, is that right? + +Mrs. DAVIS. I believe so. + +Mr. BALL. There is an affidavit that has been filed with us, a +statement you made to the Secret Service men on the first of December +1963. And in that affidavit, it says, after describing that "The man +was on the sidewalk directly in front of me and shaking shells from +a pistol into his hand as he walked,"--this says here, "The man was +walking in a normal direction and walked across the corner of my +property towards Patton Street." + +Did you ever tell anyone that you saw the man walking in a normal +direction? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No; I showed them where it was at, and they done that. + +Mr. BALL. I see. He was walking--what direction? + +Mrs. DAVIS. I didn't know. And so they figured that out. + +Mr. BALL. He was walking towards what street? + +Mrs. DAVIS. He was going down Patton. + +Mr. BALL. Towards what street? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Jefferson. And so they figured it out for me. + +Mr. BALL. However--when--did you see the man after he went around the +corner of your house? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. + +Representative FORD. Did you see the taxicab parked on the corner? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Let's go back to that afternoon, and you give your best +memory of what the man looked like. Don't think of what anybody has +told you or what has happened in between. Try to remember the vision +you had of that man--the color of his hair, the size of his build and +so forth. + +Mrs. DAVIS. You mean weight and like that? + +Mr. BALL. He was white, wasn't he? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Light complexioned, or dark? + +Mrs. DAVIS. He was more light complected than he would have been dark. + +Mr. BALL. Color of his hair? + +Mrs. DAVIS. It was either dark brown or black. It was just dark hair. + +Mr. BALL. And the color of his clothes? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Well, I said he had on--he looked to me that he had on dark +trousers, and it looked like a light colored shirt, with a dark coat +over it. + +Mr. BALL. About what age would you say the man was? + +Mrs. DAVIS. I am not very good on that. I don't know. I would say he +was about 23, 24. + +Mr. BALL. And what about his weight and height? + +Mrs. DAVIS. I---- + +Mr. BALL. You have to be general, I know that. + +Mr. DULLES. Just your best recollection. If you haven't any, just tell +us. + +Mrs. DAVIS. I just don't know. + +Mr. BALL. Was he fat or slender? + +Mrs. DAVIS. He was slender built, and not very heavy. + +Mr. BALL. Was he a tall man, or a real short man, or average? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Oh, he wasn't especially tall. I would say he was about +medium height or a little taller. I mean he wasn't extra tall. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did you have some difficulty in identifying this No. 2 +man in the showup when you saw him? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Well, they made us look at him a long time before they let +us say anything. + +Mr. BALL. What about you? I am not talking about what you told them. + +What was your reaction when you saw this man? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Well, I was pretty sure it was the same man I saw. When +they made him turn sideways, I was positive that was the one I seen. + +Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. + +Mr. BELIN. Thank you, Mrs. Davis. + +Mr. DULLES. Did your sister-in-law go with you to the lineup? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Did she make an identification? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. At the same time as you did? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Did you see her identification? + +Mrs. DAVIS. We didn't discuss it. + +Mr. DULLES. I mean, but after she had made it, did you see what +identification she had made? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Do you mean--I don't understand what you mean. + +Mr. DULLES. Well, let me start over again. + +Did you identify the man in the lineup before your sister-in-law? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Before your sister-in-law? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir; I was the first one. + +Mr. DULLES. All right. + +Did your sister-in-law, to your knowledge, make the same identification? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir; she was there with me at the same time. + +Mr. DULLES. She was standing with you. And she saw the identification +you had made? + +Mrs. DAVIS. All I done was just lean over and tell the man. + +Mr. DULLES. How did you make your identification? By pointing or +holding up your fingers. + +Mrs. DAVIS. The man that was sitting next to me just asked me which one +I thought it was, and I leaned over and told him. And then he leaned +around me and asked her. + +Mr. DULLES. He did what? + +Mrs. DAVIS. He leaned around--he was behind me, and asked her. + +Mr. DULLES. I see. + +Mrs. DAVIS. I sort of set up where he could talk to her. + +Mr. DULLES. And did you identify the man by number or by pointing? + +Mrs. DAVIS. By number. + +Mr. DULLES. Do you remember what number it was? + +Mrs. DAVIS. It was number 2. From the left. + +Mr. DULLES. Have you any questions? + +Representative FORD. Did you whisper this information to the man behind +you? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we were all sitting in a line, and he was sitting on +this side of me. He just leaned over and asked me which one I thought +it was. + +Representative FORD. He was sitting on your right? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Representative FORD. And you turned to your right and told him? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. And your sister-in-law was sitting on your left? + +Mrs. DAVIS. On the other side, yes. + +Representative FORD. When you spoke to him, you were speaking away from +her? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. Did you speak in a loud voice or a whisper? + +Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; very quietly. + +Representative FORD. You think your sister-in-law heard you say the +number? + +Mrs. DAVIS. I don't know. + +Mr DULLES. Mr. Attorney General, have you any questions? + +Mr. CARR. Thank you, I do not. + +Mr. MURRAY. I have no questions. + +Mr. BELIN. I think the record should show that although the witness did +not receive the letter notifying her of our request for an appearance, +we mailed it to her last known address at 400 East 10th Street, and the +letter came back here. But the notice was mailed to the witness. It was +just that it was not forwarded to where she now lives in Athens. + +Mr. DULLES. You had moved from this house where these incidents took +place? + +Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. DULLES. You are excused. Thank you very much. + +Mr. BALL. Our next witness is Mr. Ted Callaway. + + +TESTIMONY OF TED CALLAWAY + +Mr. DULLES. Mr. Callaway, in the absence of the Chief Justice, I am +presiding over the meeting of the Commission this morning. + +Would you kindly raise your right hand? + +Do you swear that the testimony that you will give to this Commission +is the truth, the whole truth, so help you God? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. And nothing but the truth? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. That is correct. + +Mr. DULLES. You may be seated. + +Mr. Ball, will you proceed? + +Mr. BALL. Mr. Callaway, we are investigating the assassination of +President Kennedy. We are going to ask you questions with regard to +what you saw on the day of November 22, 1963, in Dallas. + +Where do you live? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. 805 West Eighth. + +Mr. BALL. What is your business? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Car salesman. + +Mr. BALL. We would like to know something about your background. We ask +most of the witnesses these questions. + +Where were you born? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. In Dallas. + +Mr. BALL. Were you raised in Dallas? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Went to school in Dallas? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How old are you? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Forty. + +Mr. BALL. How far through school did you go? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Two years of college. + +Mr. BALL. What college? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. S.M.U. + +Mr. BALL. And what did you do after you got out of college? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. I worked part time as a clothing salesman downtown, and +then my uncle was a painter, and I worked for him for awhile. Then I +went back in the Marines for 3 years. + +And I have been selling cars since '56. + +Mr. BALL. You are a used-car salesman? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you employed--have you had any trouble with the +police of any sort? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. No. + +Mr. BALL. Any difficulty at all in your life? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. No, sir; never. + +Mr. BALL. You were discharged from the Marines, were you? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What year? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. 1954. + +Mr. BALL. Received an honorable discharge from the service? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, where were you working? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. At Harris Bros., auto sales. + +Mr. BALL. And what was your job? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. I was used-car manager. + +Mr. BALL. Now, Harris Bros. Auto Sales is located where? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. 501 East Jefferson. + +Mr. BALL. Where is that from 10th and Patton? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Just one block. + +Mr. BALL. One block south? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What corner? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. It would be on the northeast corner. + +Mr. BALL. So that we can orient ourselves from 10th and Patton--I have +marked this diagram as Commission Exhibit 537. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 537 for +identification.) + +Mr. BALL. Now, Mr. Callaway, will you, on 537, take this and mark the +location of the used car lot with an "X"? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. All right, sir. + +Right here. + +Mr. BALL. The "X" marks the position of the used-car lot? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, Mr. Callaway, around 1:15 or so of that day, where were +you? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. I was standing on the front porch of our office. + +Mr. BALL. That is at 401 East Jefferson? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. No; 501. + +Mr. BALL. I will show you a picture which we will mark as 538. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 538 for +identification.) + +Mr. BALL. Does this show a picture of the office? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. That is it. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you went down there one day last week to have some +pictures taken. + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you attempt to stand in the same place you were at the +time? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where you were standing November 22d around 1 o'clock or so? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did you hear at that time? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. I heard what sounded to me like five pistol shots. + +Mr. BALL. Five pistol shots? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Five shots, yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. From the sound, could you tell the source of the sound? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir, I could tell it was back of the lot over toward +10th Street. + +Mr. BALL. And what did you do? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. I ran out to the sidewalk on Patton. + +Mr. BALL. And what did you see? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Well, I could see--I was still--before I got to the +sidewalk, I could see this taxicab parked down on Patton. I saw the +cabdriver beside his cab, and saw a man cutting from one side of the +street to the other. That would be the east side of Patton and over to +the west side of Patton. And he was running. And he had a gun in his +hand, his right hand. + +Mr. BALL. And how was he holding the gun? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. We used to say in the Marine Corps in a raised pistol +position. + +Mr. BALL. That would be with the muzzle pointed upward, and with the +arm bent at the elbow, is that right? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir; just like this. + +Mr. BALL. I have a picture here, 539. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 539 for +identification.) + +Mr. BALL. When this picture was taken, did you try to represent the +place you were standing when you saw the man? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How did you get there? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. I ran. + +Mr. BALL. You ran from the place on the porch, is that right? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. That is right. From right here, to there. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you were at the place shown on 538, on the porch? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And when you heard the shots, what did you do? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. I just hurried--I don't know whether I really ran or not. +But I hurried off the side of this porch and came to this position. + +Mr. BALL. All right. When you came to this position, you say you saw a +taxicab? + +Mr. DULLES. Where is this position on this chart? Right here? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. It would be about right here. I come off the porch here. + +Mr. DULLES. Point 29? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. You saw a taxicab where, on photo 29? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Right here. + +Mr. BALL. Let's mark an arrow there, about where you saw the taxicab. +The arrow marks the position of the taxicab. You saw a man? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. He was crossing Patton? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Was that to the south or the north of the taxicab? Closer to +you than the taxicab? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Was he running or walking? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. He was running. + +Mr. BALL. And where were you when you noticed he had the gun? Or where +was he when you noticed he had the gun? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. When I first saw the gun, he had already crossed from +here to here and was coming up this sidewalk. + +Mr. BALL. Coming up the sidewalk on which side of Patton? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. West side of Patton. + +Mr. BALL. And did he continue to come? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And did you say anything to him? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What did you say? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. I hollered "Hey, man, what the hell is going on?" When he +was right along here. + +Mr. BALL. Make a mark there where he was when you yelled, "What the +hell is going on?" "X" marks the place where the man with the gun was +when you yelled at him? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. That is right. + +Mr. DULLES. Would you mark it on this chart, too--Exhibit 537? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Right along here--about 27. I guess. That would be it. +You see, here is where I was, sir. And then he was right there when I +hollered at him. + +Mr. DULLES. I don't get this. There is an alleyway there, apparently. + +Mr. CALLAWAY. That is right. + +Mr. DULLES. But here is where the squad car was. + +Mr. CALLAWAY. That is right. + +Mr. DULLES. And here is where the cab was. + +Mr. CALLAWAY. That is right. + +Mr. DULLES. He had come all the way down? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. He had come from there through this yard and cut behind +this taxicab, over to this side of the street. + +Mr. DULLES. So he was there, then? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. No, sir. I didn't holler at him until he came up to here. +He was running up this sidewalk. + +Mr. DULLES. He was going south on Patton? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. On the west side of the street. + +Representative FORD. You saw him run from about the taxicab---- + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Across the street, up this sidewalk. + +Mr. DULLES. About how far is that? Fifty feet or more? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Oh, it is more than that. From here down to there, I +think is about 300 feet. + +Mr. BALL. Mark on this diagram, which is 537, where the man was, and +the course he took. + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Well, now, when I first saw him he was right here. Then +he came across here, down this way. + +Mr. BALL. Down to the point where you spoke to him? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. That is right. + +Mr. BALL. What did he do when you hollered at him? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. He slowed his pace, almost halted for a minute. And he +said something to me, which I could not understand. And then kind of +shrugged his shoulders, and kept on going. + +Mr. BALL. Show the course he took on the map, if you will. + +Mr. CALLAWAY. All right. + +Right on down here, and he cut through this front yard. + +Mr. BALL. And where was he when you last saw him? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Right here. + +Mr. BALL. Right at that point? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Now, the first "X" marks the position of the parking lot--we +will mark that 1. The place of the taxicab we will mark as 2. The place +where the man was with the gun when you yelled at him, we will mark +that as 3. The last place you saw the man, that we will mark 4. + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. All right. Now---- + +Mr. DULLES. May I ask what course he was taking when you last saw him? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. He was going west on Jefferson Street. + +Mr. DULLES. West on Jefferson Street? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. I hollered to this guy behind--B. D. Searcy. + +Mr. BALL. What did you say to Mr. Searcy? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. I told him to keep an eye on that guy, I says, "Keep an +eye on that guy, follow him. I am going to go down there and see what +is going on." So I ran, a good hard run, from here down around the +corner. + +Mr. BALL. 10th and Patton? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. When you got there what did you see? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. I saw a squad car, and by that time there was four or +five people that had gathered, a couple of cars had stopped. Then I +saw--I went on up to the squad car and saw the police officer lying +in the street. I see he had been shot in the head. So the first thing +I did, I ran over to the squad car. I didn't know whether anybody +reported it or not. So I got on the police radio and called them, and +told them a man had been shot, told them the location, I thought the +officer was dead. They said we know about it, stay off the air, so I +went back. + +By this time an ambulance was coming. The officer was laying on his +left side, his pistol was underneath him. I kind of rolled him over and +took his gun out from under him. The people wonder whether he ever got +his pistol out of his holster. He did. + +Mr. BALL. The pistol was out of the holster? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir; out of the holster, and it was unsnapped. It +was on his right side. He was laying with the gun under him. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. I picked the gun up and laid it on the hood of the squad +car, and then someone put it in the front seat of the squad car. Then +after I helped load Officer Tippit in the ambulance, I got the gun out +of the car and told this cabdriver, I said, "You saw the guy didn't +you?" He said, yes. + +I said, "If he is going up Jefferson, he can't be very far. Let's see +if we can find him." So I went with Scoggins in the taxicab, went up to +10th, Crawford, from Crawford up to Jefferson, and down Jefferson to +Beckley. And we turned on Beckley. If we had kept going up Jefferson, +we probably--there is a good chance we would have seen him, because he +was headed right towards the Texas Theatre. But then we circled around +several blocks, and ended up coming back to where it happened. + +Mr. BALL. And the ambulance--had the ambulance been there by that time? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Oh, yes; the ambulance already left before I ever left +with the cabdriver. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go down to the police station later? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. That evening. + +Mr. BALL. What time? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. I think it was around 6:30 or 7 o'clock. I remember it +was after dark. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go down there alone? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. No. I went with Sam Guinyard, a colored porter of ours. +He saw him, also. + +(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.) + +Mr. CALLAWAY. We drove down. Officer--Detective Jim Leavelle met us, +and took us into this room where they showed us the lineup. + +Mr. BALL. Now, before you went down there, had you seen any newspaper +accounts of this incident? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. No, sir; I had been out there on the lot. I hadn't seen a +newspaper, hadn't even heard a radio, really. + +Mr. BALL. Had you seen any television? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Had you seen a picture of a man? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. No. + +Mr. BALL. The officer show you any pictures? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You went into a police lineup, in a room where they had a +lineup of men? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. How many? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Four. + +Mr. BALL. And were they all the same size, or different sizes? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. They were about the same build, but the man that I +identified was the shortest one of the bunch. + +Mr. BALL. Were they anywhere near the same age? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. They were about the same age, yes, sir. They looked--you +know. + +Mr. BALL. And you say you identified a man. How did you do that? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Well---- + +Mr. BALL. Tell us what happened. + +Mr. CALLAWAY. We first went into the room. There was Jim Leavelle, the +detective, Sam Guinyard, and then this busdriver and myself. We waited +down there for probably 20 or 30 minutes. And Jim told us, "When I show +you these guys, be sure, take your time, see if you can make a positive +identification." + +Mr. BALL. Had you known him before? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. No. And he said, "We want to be sure, we want to try to +wrap him up real tight on killing this officer. We think he is the same +one that shot the President. But if we can wrap him up tight on killing +this officer, we have got him." So they brought four men in. + +I stepped to the back of the room, so I could kind of see him from the +same distance which I had seen him before. And when he came out, I knew +him. + +Mr. BALL. You mean he looked like the same man? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. About what distance was he away from you--the closest that he +ever was to you? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. About 56 feet. + +Mr. BALL. You measured that, did you? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Last Saturday morning? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Measured it with a tape measure? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did he have the same clothes on in the lineup--did the man +have the same clothes? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. He had the same trousers and shirt, but he didn't have +his jacket on. He had ditched his jacket. + +Mr. BALL. What kind--when you talked to the police officers before you +saw this man, did you give them a description of the clothing he had on? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did you tell them you saw? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. I told them he had some dark trousers and a light tannish +gray windbreaker jacket, and I told him that he was fair complexion, +dark hair. + +Mr. BALL. Tell them the size? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes; I told them--I think I told them about 5'10". + +Mr. DULLES. Did you see his front face at any time, or did you only +have a side view of him? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. He looked right at me, sir. When I called to him, he +looked right at me. + +Mr. DULLES. You saw front face? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. I have a jacket here--Commission's Exhibit No. 162. Does this +look anything like the jacket that the man had on that you saw across +the street with a gun? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes; it sure does. Yes, that is the same type jacket. +Actually, I thought it had a little more tan to it. + +Mr. BALL. Same type? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. I show you a shirt, 150. Does it look anything like the shirt +he had on under the jacket? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Sir, when I saw him he didn't have--I couldn't see this +shirt. I saw--he had it open. That shirt was open, and I could see his +white T-shirt underneath. + +Mr. BALL. He had a white T-shirt underneath? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes. That is the shirt he had on in the lineup that night. + +Mr. BALL. Was he fat or thin? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. He was just---- + +Mr. BALL. I mean the man you saw across the street? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Just a nice athletic type size boy, I mean. Neither fat +nor thin. + +Mr. BALL. What did you estimate his weight when you talked to the +officer before the lineup? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. I told him it looked to me like around 160 pounds. + +Mr. DULLES. How fast was he going when you hailed him? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Just a good steady trot, not real fast. + +Mr. DULLES. He was not walking and not running--it was a trot? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. A trot; yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. He stopped? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Almost. He slowed down, like a guy is trotting along, and +he almost stopped, and kept going. + +Mr. DULLES. And he looked at you? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Did he say anything? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir; he said something, but I could not understand +it. + +Mr. DULLES. You could not understand what he said? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. That is right; yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. And then did he resume his progress at a trot? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever ask Searcy if he followed him? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. He didn't follow him. + +He said something about "Follow him, hell. That man will kill you. He +has a gun." + +So instead of following him, he went back over and got behind the +office building. + +Mr. DULLES. Did he see him at any time? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes; he saw him the same time I did; yes, sir. I never +could figure out why he didn't just follow that man. You could follow +50 yards behind him and keep a guy in sight. Chances are you wouldn't +get killed 50 yards away. + +Mr. DULLES. Had you had previous military service? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir; I was in the Marine Corps 6 years, World War +II, and during Korea. + +Mr. DULLES. Did you ever tangle with the law in any way? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. No, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. What years were you in the Marine Corps? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. 1942 through '45, and then '51 through '54. + +Mr. DULLES. Were you in Korea? + +Mr. CALLAWAY. No, sir; I didn't go to Korea. I was at Camp Pendleton as +a troop trainer. + +Mr. DULLES. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. DULLES. Back on the record. + +Mr. BALL. I would like to offer to Exhibit 539, inclusive. + +Mr. DULLES. Can you tell me what the numbers are? + +Mr. BALL. 537, 538, and 539. + +Mr. DULLES. Exhibits 537, 538, and 539 previously identified will now +be admitted in evidence. + +(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission +Exhibits Nos. 537 through 539 were received in evidence.) + +Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much. We appreciate your coming. + +(Whereupon, at 12:40 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +_Monday, March 30, 1964_ + +TESTIMONY OF DR. CHARLES JAMES CARRICO AND DR. MALCOLM OLIVER PERRY + +The President's Commission met at 9:10 a.m. on March 30, 1964, at 200 +Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. + +Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Hale +Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, John J. McCloy, and Allen W. +Dulles, members. + +Also present were Arlen Specter, assistant counsel; Charles Murray, +observer; and Dean Robert G. Storey, special counsel to the attorney +general of Texas. + + +TESTIMONY OF DR. CHARLES JAMES CARRICO + +The CHAIRMAN. All right, Dr. Carrico, you know the reason why we are +here, what we are investigating. + +If you will raise your right hand, please, and be sworn, sir. + +You solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission shall +be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you +God? + +Dr. CARRICO. I do. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Specter will conduct the examination. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Carrico, will you state your full name for the record +please? + +Dr. CARRICO. Charles James Carrico. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is your address, Dr. Carrico? + +Dr. CARRICO. Home address? + +Mr. SPECTER. Please. + +Dr. CARRICO. It is 2605 Ridgwood in Irving. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your professional address? + +Dr. CARRICO. Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. SPECTER. How old are you, sir? + +Dr. CARRICO. 28. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly your educational background? + +Dr. CARRICO. I attended grade school and high school in Denton, Tex.; +received a Bachelor of Science in Chemistry from North Texas State +University in 1947; received my M.D. from the University of Texas +Southwestern Medical School in 1961; served an internship at Parkland +Memorial Hospital from 1961 to 1962; and then did a year of fellowship +at the surgery department at Southwestern Medical School, followed by +my surgery residency at Parkland Hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed to practice medicine in the State of +Texas, Dr. Carrico? + +Dr. CARRICO. Yes; I am. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you board certified at the present time or are you +working toward the board certification in surgery? + +Dr. CARRICO. I am engaged in surgery residency which will qualify me +for board certification. + +Mr. SPECTER. What experience have you had, if any, with gunshot wounds? + +Dr. CARRICO. In the emergency room at Parkland, during my residence +school and internship and residency, we have seen a fair number of +gunshot wounds. + +Mr. SPECTER. Could you approximate the number of gunshot wounds you +have treated in the course of those duties? + +Dr. CARRICO. In all probably 150, 200, something in that range. + +Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties at Parkland Memorial Hospital on +November 22, 1963? + +Dr. CARRICO. At that time I was assigned to the elective surgery +service, which is the general surgery service treating the usual +surgical cases. I was in the emergency room evaluating some patient for +admission. + +Mr. SPECTER. What were you doing specifically in the neighborhood of +12:30 p.m. on that day? + +Dr. CARRICO. At that time I had been called to the emergency room to +evaluate a patient for admission to the hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you notified that an emergency case involving +President Kennedy was en route to the hospital? + +Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the time that you were +notified that President Kennedy was en route to the hospital? + +Dr. CARRICO. Shortly after 12:30 is the best I can do. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long thereafter was it that he actually did arrive at +Parkland, to the best of your recollection? + +Dr. CARRICO. Within 2 minutes approximately. + +Mr. SPECTER. And precisely where were you at Parkland when you first +observed him? + +Dr. CARRICO. When I first observed him I was in the emergency room, +seeing--actually Governor Connally had been brought in first, as you +know, Dr. Dulany and I had gone to care for Governor Connally and when +the President was brought in I left Governor Connally and went to care +for the President. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe briefly the physical layout of Parkland +with respect to the point where emergency cases are brought up to the +building and the general layout of the building into the emergency room. + +Dr. CARRICO. The emergency entrance is at the back of the building. +There is an ambulance ramp. Then immediately adjacent to the ambulance +ramp are, of course, double doors, swinging doors and a corridor which +is approximately 30 feet long and empties directly into the emergency +room. + +Then inside the emergency room are several areas, the surgical area +consists of about eight booths for treating, examination and treatment +of patients, and four large emergency operating rooms. + +Two of these are specifically set aside for acutely ill, severely ill, +patients and these are referred to as trauma rooms. + +Mr. SPECTER. And were these trauma rooms used in connection with the +treatment of President Kennedy and Governor Connally? + +Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. What precisely was the point where you met at his arrival? + +Dr. CARRICO. The President was being wheeled into trauma room one when +I saw him. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who else, if anyone, was present at that time? + +Dr. CARRICO. At that time, Dr. Don Curtis, Martin White. + +The CHAIRMAN. Was he a doctor, too? + +Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir; Miss Bowron. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who is Miss Bowron? + +Dr. CARRICO. She is one of the nurses on duty at the emergency room. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who was the first doctor to actually see the President? + +Dr. CARRICO. I was. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, what did you observe as to the condition of President +Kennedy when you first saw him? + +Dr. CARRICO. He was on an ambulance cart, emergency cart, rather. His +color was blue white, ashen. He had slow agonal respiration, spasmodic +respirations without any coordination. He was making no voluntary +movements. His eyes were open, pupils were seen to be dilated and later +were seen not to react to light. This was the initial impression. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the status of his pulse at the time of arrival? + +Dr. CARRICO. He had no palpable pulse. + +Mr. SPECTER. And was he making any movements at the time of arrival? + +Dr. CARRICO. No voluntary movements, only the spasmodic respirations. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was any heartbeat noted at his arrival? + +Dr. CARRICO. After these initial observations we opened his shirt, +coat, listened very briefly to his chest, heard a few sounds which we +felt to be heartbeats and then proceeded with the remainder of the +examination. + +Mr. SPECTER. In your opinion was President Kennedy alive or dead on his +arrival at Parkland. + +Dr. CARRICO. From a medical standpoint I suppose he was still alive in +that he did still have a heartbeat? + +Mr. SPECTER. What action, if any, was taken with respect to the removal +of President Kennedy's clothing? + +Dr. CARRICO. As I said after I had opened his shirt and coat, I +proceeded with the examination and the nurses removed his clothing as +is the usual procedure. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was President Kennedy wearing a back brace? + +Dr. CARRICO. Yes; he was. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe as precisely as you can that back brace? + +Dr. CARRICO. As I recall, this was a white cotton or some sort of fiber +standard brace with stays and corset, in a corset-type arrangement and +buckles. + +Mr. SPECTER. How far up on his body did it come? + +Dr. CARRICO. Just below his umbilicus, as I recall. + +Mr. SPECTER. How far down on his body did it go? + +Dr. CARRICO. I did not examine below his belt at that time. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you at any time examine below his belt? + +Dr. CARRICO. I did not; no, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know if anyone else did? + +Dr. CARRICO. Not in a formal manner. + +Mr. SPECTER. What action did you take by way of treating President +Kennedy on his arrival? + +Dr. CARRICO. After what we have described we completed an initial +emergency examination, which consisted of, as we have already said, +his color, his pulse, we felt his back, determined there were no +large wounds which would be an immediate threat to life there. Looked +very briefly at the head wound and then because of his inadequate +respirations inserted an endotracheal tube to attempt to support these +respirations. + +Mr. SPECTER. Specifically what did you do with respect to the back, Dr. +Carrico? + +Dr. CARRICO. This is a routine examination of critically ill patients +where you haven't got time to examine him fully. I just placed my hands +just above the belt, but in this case just above the brace, and ran my +hands up his back. + +Mr. SPECTER. To what point on his body? + +Dr. CARRICO. All the way up to his neck very briefly. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you feel by that? + +Dr. CARRICO. I felt nothing other than the blood and debris. There was +no large wound there. + +Mr. SPECTER. What source did you attribute the blood to at that time? + +Dr. CARRICO. As it could have come from the head wound, and it +certainly could have been a back wound, but there was no way to tell +whether this blood would have come from a back wound and not from his +head. + +Mr. SPECTER. What action did you next take then? + +Dr. CARRICO. At that time the endotracheal tube was inserted, using a +curved laryngoscopic blade, inserting an endotracheal tube, it was seen +there were some contusions, hematoma to the right of the larynx, with +a minimal deviation of the larynx to the left, and ragged tissue below +indicating tracheal injury. + +The tube was inserted past this injury, and the cuff inflater was +connected to a Bennett machine which is a respiratory assistor using +positive pressure. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe briefly what you mean in lay terms by a +cuffed endotracheal tube? + +Dr. CARRICO. This is a plastic tube which is inserted into the trachea, +into the windpipe, to allow an adequate airway, adequate breathing. The +cuff is a small latex cuff which should prevent leakage of air around +the tube, thus insuring an adequate airway. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you continue, then, to describe what efforts you made +to revive the President. + +Dr. CARRICO. After the endotracheal tube was inserted and connected, +I listened briefly to his chest, respirations were better but still +inadequate. + +Dr. Perry arrived, and because of the inadequate respirations the +presence of a tracheal injury, advised that the chest tube was to be +inserted, this was done by some of the other physicians in the room. + +At the same time we had been getting the airway inserted Dr. Curtis +and Dr. White were doing a cutdown, venous section using polyethylene +catheters through which fluid, medicine and blood could be administered. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe in lay language what you mean by a +cutdown in relationship to what they did in this case? + +Dr. CARRICO. This was a small incision over his ankle and a tube was +inserted into one of his veins through which blood could be given, +fluid. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is the general purpose of that to maintain a circulatory +system? + +Dr. CARRICO. Right. + +Mr. SPECTER. In wounded parties? + +Dr. CARRICO. Yes. + +(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you now proceed again to describe what else was done +for the President in an effort to save his life? + +Dr. CARRICO. Sure. Dr. Perry then took over supervision and treatment, +and the chest tubes were inserted, another cutdown was done by Dr. +Jones on the President's arm. + +Fluid, as I said, was given, blood was given, hydrocortisone was given. +Dr. Clark, the chief neurosurgeon, Dr. Bashour, cardiologist, was there +or arrived, and a cardiac monitor was attached and although I never saw +any electro-activity, Dr. Clark said there was some electrical activity +of the heart which means he was still trying to---- + +Mr. SPECTER. What is Dr. Clark's position in the hospital? + +Dr. CARRICO. He is chief of the neurosurgery department and professor +of the neurosurgery. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Carrico, will you continue to tell us then what +treatment you rendered the President? + +Dr. CARRICO. When this electrocardiac activity ceased, close cardiac +massage was begun. Using this, and fluids and airway we were able +to maintain fairly good color, apparently fairly good peripheral +circulation as monitored by carotid and radial pulses for a period of +time. These efforts were abandoned when it was determined by Dr. Clark +that there was no continued cardiac response. There was no cerebral +response, that is the pupils remained dilated and fixed; there was +evidence of anoxia. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe in lay language what anoxia means? + +Dr. CARRICO. No oxygen. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was cardiac massage applied in this situation? + +Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir; it was, excellent cardiac massage. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were bloods administered to the President? + +Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir. + +(At this point, Mr. Dulles entered the hearing room.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Carrico, was any action taken with respect to the +adrenalin insufficiency of President Kennedy? + +Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir; he was given 300 milligrams of hydrocortisone +which is an adrenal hormone. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what was the reason for the administration of that +drug? + +Dr. CARRICO. It was recalled that the President had been said to have +adrenal insufficiency. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, at what time was the death of the President +pronounced, Doctor? + +Dr. CARRICO. At 1 o'clock. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who pronounced the death of the President? + +Dr. CARRICO. Dr. Clark, I believe. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was that a precise time fixed or a general time fixed for +the point of death? + +Dr. CARRICO. This was a general time, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. What, in your opinion, was the cause of death? + +Dr. CARRICO. The head wound, the head injury. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe as specifically as you can the head +wound which you have already mentioned briefly? + +Dr. CARRICO. Sure. + +This was a 5- by 71-cm defect in the posterior skull, the occipital +region. There was an absence of the calvarium or skull in this area, +with shredded tissue, brain tissue present and initially considerable +slow oozing. Then after we established some circulation there was more +profuse bleeding from this wound. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was any other wound observed on the head in addition to +this large opening where the skull was absent? + +Dr. CARRICO. No other wound on the head. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any opportunity specifically to look for a +small wound which was below the large opening of the skull on the right +side of the head? + +Dr. CARRICO. No, sir; at least initially there was no time to examine +the patient completely for all small wounds. As we said before, this +was an acutely ill patient and all we had time to do was to determine +what things were life-threatening right then and attempt to resuscitate +him and after which a more complete examination would be carried out +and we didn't have time to examine for other wounds. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was such a more complete examination ever carried out by +the doctors in Parkland? + +Dr. CARRICO. No, sir; not in my presence. + +Mr. SPECTER. Why not? + +Dr. CARRICO. As we said initially this was an acute emergency situation +and there was not time initially and when the cardiac massage was done +this prevented any further examination during this time this was being +done. After the President was pronounced dead his wife was there, he +was the President, and we felt certainly that complete examination +would be carried out and no one had the heart, I believe, to examine +him then. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe, as specifically as you can then, the +neck wounds which you heretofore mentioned briefly? + +Dr. CARRICO. There was a small wound, 5- to 8-mm. in size, located in +the lower third of the neck, below the thyroid cartilage, the Adams +apple. + +Mr. DULLES. Will you show us about where it was? + +Dr. CARRICO. Just about where your tie would be. + +Mr. DULLES. Where did it enter? + +Dr. CARRICO. It entered? + +Mr. DULLES. Yes. + +Dr. CARRICO. At the time we did not know---- + +Mr. DULLES. I see. + +Dr. CARRICO. The entrance. All we knew this was a small wound here. + +Mr. DULLES. I see. And you put your hand right above where your tie is? + +Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir; just where the tie---- + +Mr. DULLES. A little bit to the left. + +Dr. CARRICO. To the right. + +Mr. DULLES. Yes; to the right. + +Dr. CARRICO. Yes. And this wound was fairly round, had no jagged edges, +no evidence of powder burns, and so forth. + +Representative FORD. No evidence of powder burns? + +Dr. CARRICO. So far as I know. + +Representative FORD. In the front? + +Dr. CARRICO. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described that wound as specifically as you +can based upon your observations at the time? + +Dr. CARRICO. I believe so. + +Mr. SPECTER. And your recollection at the time of those observations? + +Dr. CARRICO. Yes; an even round wound. + +Mr. DULLES. You felt this wound in the neck was not a fatal wound? + +Dr. CARRICO. That is right. + +Mr. SPECTER. That is, absent the head wound, would the President have +survived the wound which was present on his neck? + +Dr. CARRICO. I think very likely he would have. + +Mr. SPECTER. Based on your observations on the neck wound alone did +you have a sufficient basis to form an opinion as to whether it was an +entrance or an exit wound? + +Dr. CARRICO. No, sir; we did not. Not having completely evaluated all +the wounds, traced out the course of the bullets, this wound would have +been compatible with either entrance or exit wound depending upon the +size, the velocity, the tissue structure and so forth. + +Mr. SPECTER. Permit me to add some facts which I shall ask you to +assume as being true for purposes of having you express an opinion. + +First of all, assume that the President was struck by a 6.5 mm. +copper-jacketed bullet from a rifle having a muzzle velocity of +approximately 2,000 feet per second at a time when the President was +approximately 160 to 250 feet from the weapon, with the President being +struck from the rear at a downward angle of approximately 45 degrees, +being struck on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper +border of the scapula 14 centimeters from the tip of the right acromion +process and 14 centimeters below the tip of the right mastoid process. + +Assume further that the missile passed through the body of the +President striking no bones, traversing the neck and sliding between +the large muscles in the posterior aspect of the President's body +through a fascia channel without violating the pleural cavity, but +bruising only the apex of the right pleural cavity and bruising the +most apical portion of the right lung, then causing a hematoma to the +right of the larynx which you have described, and creating a jagged +wound in the trachea, then exiting precisely at the point where you +observe the puncture wound to exist. + +Now based on those facts was the appearance of the wound in your +opinion consistent with being an exit wound? + +Dr. CARRICO. It certainly was. It could have been under the +circumstances. + +Mr. SPECTER. And assuming that all the facts which I have given you to +be true, do you have an opinion with a reasonable degree of medical +certainty as to whether, in fact, the wound was an entrance wound or an +exit wound? + +Dr. CARRICO. With those facts and the fact as I understand it no other +bullet was found this would be, this was, I believe, was an exit wound. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were any bullets found in the President's body by the +doctors at Parkland? + +Dr. CARRICO. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was the President's clothing ever examined by you, Dr. +Carrico? + +Dr. CARRICO. No, sir; it was not. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the reason for no examination of the clothing? + +Dr. CARRICO. Again in the emergency situation the nurses removed the +clothing after we had initially unbuttoned enough to get a look at +him, at his chest, and as the routine is set up, the nurses remove the +clothing and we just don't take time to look at it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was the President's body then ever turned over at any +point by you or any of the other doctors at Parkland? + +Dr. CARRICO. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was President Kennedy lying on the emergency stretcher +from the time he was brought into trauma room one until the treatment +at Parkland Hospital was concluded? + +Dr. CARRICO. Yes; he was. + +Mr. SPECTER. At what time was that treatment concluded, to the best of +your recollection? + +Dr. CARRICO. At about 1 o'clock. + +Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did you leave the trauma room +where the President was brought? + +Dr. CARRICO. I left right at one when we decided that he was dead. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did the other doctors leave at the same time or did +any remain in the trauma room? + +Dr. CARRICO. I left before some of the other doctors, I do not remember +specifically who was there. I believe Dr. Baxter was, Dr. Jenkins was +still there, I believe. And I think Dr. Perry was. + +Mr. SPECTER. You have described a number of doctors in the course of +your testimony up to this point. Would you state what other doctors +were present during the time the President was treated, to the best of +your recollection? + +Dr. CARRICO. Well, I have already mentioned Dr. Don Curtis, the surgery +resident; Martin White, an interne; Dr. Perry was there, Dr. Baxter, +Dr. McClelland, a member of the surgery staff; Dr. Ronald Jones, +chief surgery resident; Dr. Jenkins, chief of anesthesia; several +other physicians whose names I can't remember at the present. Admiral +Burkley, I believe was his name, the President's physician, was there +as soon as he got to the hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your view, Dr. Carrico, as to how many bullets +struck the President? + +Dr. CARRICO. At the time of the initial examination I really had no +view. In view of what we have been told by you, and the Commission, two +bullets would be my opinion. + +Mr. SPECTER. Based on the additional facts which I have asked you to +assume---- + +Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And also based on the autopsy report from Bethesda---- + +Dr. CARRICO. Right. + +Mr. SPECTER. Which was made available to you by me. + +Dr. CARRICO. Right. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, who, if any one, has talked to you representing the +Federal Government in connection with the treatment which you assisted +in rendering President Kennedy at Parkland on November 22? + +Dr. CARRICO. We have talked to some representatives of the Secret +Service, whose names I do not remember. + +Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions, if there was more than one? + +Dr. CARRICO. Two occasions, a fairly long interview shortly after the +President's death, and then approximately a month or so afterwards a +very short interview. + +Representative FORD. When you say shortly after the President's death, +you mean that day? + +Dr. CARRICO. No, sir. Within a week maybe. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what was the substance of the first interview with the +Secret Service which you have described as occurring within 1 week? + +Dr. CARRICO. This was a meeting in Dr. Shires' office, Dr. Shires, Dr. +Perry, Dr. McClelland and myself, and two representatives of the Secret +Service in which we went over the treatment. + +They discussed the autopsy findings as I recall it, with Dr. Shires, +and reviewed the treatment with him, essentially. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what questions were you asked specifically at that +time, if any? + +Dr. CARRICO. I don't recall any specific questions I was asked. In +general, I was asked some questions pertaining to his treatment, to the +wounds, what I thought they were, and et cetera. + +Mr. SPECTER. What opinions did you express at that time? + +Dr. CARRICO. Again, I said that on the basis of our initial +examination, this wound in his neck could have been either an entrance +or exit wound, which was what they were most concerned about, and +assuming there was a wound in the back, somewhere similar to what you +have described that this certainly would be compatible with an exit +wound. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were your statements at that time different in any respect +with the testimony which you have given here this morning? + +Dr. CARRICO. Not that I recall. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were your views at that time consistent with the findings +in the autopsy report, or did they vary in any way from the findings in +that report? + +Dr. CARRICO. As I recall, the autopsy report is exactly as I remember +it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were your opinions at that time consistent with the +findings of the autopsy report? + +Dr. CARRICO. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you identify Dr. Shires for the record, please? + +Dr. CARRICO. Dr. Shires is chief of the surgery service at Parkland, +and chairman of the Department of Surgery at Southwestern Medical +School. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, approximately when, to the best of your recollection, +did the second interview occur with the Secret Service? + +Dr. CARRICO. This was some time in February, probably about the middle +of February, and the interview consisted of the agent asking me if I +had any further information. + +I said I did not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was that the total context of the interview? + +Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, did I interview you and take your deposition in +Dallas, Tex., last Wednesday? + +Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And has that deposition transcript been made available to +you this morning? + +Dr. CARRICO. It has. + +Mr. SPECTER. And were the views you expressed to me in our conversation +before the deposition and on the record during the course of the +deposition different in any way with the testimony which you have +provided here this morning? + +Dr. CARRICO. No, sir; they were not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Carrico, have you changed your opinion in any way +concerning your observations or conclusions about the situation with +respect to President Kennedy at any time since November 22, 1963? + +Dr. CARRICO. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any notes or writings of any sort in your +possession concerning your participation in the treatment of President +Kennedy? + +Dr. CARRICO. None other than the letter to my children I mentioned to +you. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you state briefly the general nature of that for the +Commission here today, please. + +Dr. CARRICO. This is just a letter written to my children to be read by +them later, saying what happened, how I felt about it. And maybe why it +happened, and maybe it would do them some good later. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you also make a written report which was made a part +of the records of Parkland Hospital which you have identified for the +record during the deposition proceeding? + +Dr. CARRICO. Yes; I did. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do those constitute the total of the writings which you +made concerning your participation in the treatment of the President? + +Dr. CARRICO. Right. + +Mr. DULLES. You spoke of a letter to your children. I don't want to +invade your privacy in this respect in any way, but is there anything +in that letter that you think would bear on our considerations here by +this Commission? + +Dr. CARRICO. No; I don't believe so. This thing doesn't mention the +treatment other than to say probably by the time they read the letter +it will be archaic. + +Mr. DULLES. You spoke about the causes of it all, I don't know +whether---- + +Dr. CARRICO. Just a little homespun philosophy. I just said that there +was a lot of extremism both in Dallas and in the Nation as a whole, and +in an attitude of extremism a warped mind can flourish much better than +in a more stable atmosphere. + +Mr. DULLES. Thank you. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Carrico, was the nature of the treatment affected, +in your opinion, in any way by the fact that you were working on the +President of the United States? + +Dr. CARRICO. I don't believe so, sir. We have seen a large number of +acutely injured people, and acutely ill people, and the treatment +has been carried out enough that this is almost reflex, if you will. +Certainly everyone was emotionally affected. I think, if anything, the +emotional aspect made us think faster, work faster and better. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think would be +helpful to the Commission in its inquiry on the assassination of +President Kennedy? + +Dr. CARRICO. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Those conclude my questions, Mr. Chief Justice. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dulles, have you any questions to ask of the Doctor? + +Mr. DULLES. Looking back on it, do you think it was probable that death +followed almost immediately after this shot in the head? + +Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir; as I said---- + +Mr. DULLES. I was absent, I am sorry, at that time. + +Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir. Medically, I suppose you would have to say he +was alive when he came to Parkland. From a practical standpoint, I +think he was dead then. + +The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford? + +Representative FORD. When did you say that he arrived, when you first +started working on the President? + +Dr. CARRICO. It would only be a guess. Probably about 12:35. It was +about 12:30 when I got in the emergency room, and I was there 2 or 3 +minutes when we were called, and he was there within 2 or 3 minutes. + +Representative FORD. So approximately from 12:35 until 1 the President +was examined and treatment was given by you and others? + +Dr. CARRICO. Yes. + +Representative FORD. Have you read and analyzed the autopsy performed +by the authorities at Bethesda? + +Dr. CARRICO. I have not read it carefully. I have seen it. Mr. Specter +showed me parts of it, and I had seen a copy of it earlier, briefly. + +Representative FORD. Is there anything in it that you have read that +would be in conflict with your observation? + +Dr. CARRICO. Nothing at all in conflict. It certainly adds to the +observations that we made. + +Representative FORD. Have you been interviewed by the press and, if so, +when? + +Dr. CARRICO. I think I have talked to the press twice. + +Mr. Burrus, a reporter for the Dallas Times Herald, talked to me about +5 minutes, probably 3 or 4 days after the President's death, and then +a reporter from Time called about 3 or 4 weeks after the President's +death, and I talked to him for a very few minutes. + +Representative FORD. Did you make any statements in either of these +interviews that are different from the observations you have made here +this morning? + +Dr. CARRICO. Not that I recall. + +Representative FORD. That is all. + +Mr. DULLES. Mr. Chief Justice, could I--off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +The CHAIRMAN. Well, Doctor, thank you very much. We appreciate your +help. + +Dr. CARRICO. Certainly. Glad to be here. + + +TESTIMONY OF DR. MALCOLM PERRY + +The CHAIRMAN. Dr. Perry, will you be sworn now, please? + +Would you raise your right hand and be sworn, please? + +Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the +Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Dr. PERRY. I do. + +The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please? + +Mr. Specter will conduct the examination. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please? + +Dr. PERRY. Malcolm Oliver Perry. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your residence address? + +Dr. PERRY. 4115 Parkland, Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. SPECTER. Your professional address? + +Dr. PERRY. 5323 Harley Hines Boulevard. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is that the address of Parkland Memorial Hospital? + +Dr. PERRY. That is the address of the University of Texas Southwestern +Medical School. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is that situated immediately adjacent to Parkland Memorial +Hospital? + +Dr. PERRY. That is correct. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your age, sir? + +Dr. PERRY. 34. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession? + +Dr. PERRY. I am a physician and surgeon. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you duly licensed to practice medicine by the State +of Texas? + +Dr. PERRY. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your educational background, +please? + +Dr. PERRY. After graduation from Plano High School in 1947, I attended +the University of Texas and was duly graduated there in January of 1951 +with a degree of Bachelor of Arts. + +I subsequently graduated from the University of Texas Southwestern +Medical School in 1956 with a degree of Doctor of Medicine. I served +an internship of 12 months at Letterman Hospital in San Francisco, and +after 2 more years in the Air Force I returned to Parkland for a 4-year +residency in general surgery. + +I completed that in---- + +Mr. DULLES. Where did you serve in the Air Force, by the way? + +Dr. PERRY. I was in Spokane, Wash., Geiger Field. + +At the completion of my surgery residency in June of 1962, I was +appointed an instructor in surgery at the Southwestern Medical School. + +But in September 1962, I returned to the University of California at +San Francisco to spend a year in vascular surgery. During that time, I +took and passed my boards for the certification for the American Board +of Surgery. + +I returned to Parkland Hospital and Southwestern in September of 1963, +was appointed an assistant professor of surgery, attending surgeon and +vascular consultant for Parkland Hospital and John Smith Hospital in +Fort Worth. + +Mr. SPECTER. What experience have you had, Dr. Perry, if any, in +gunshot wounds? + +Dr. PERRY. During my period in medical school and my residency, I have +seen a large number, from 150 to 200. + +Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties at Parkland Memorial Hospital, if +any, on November 22d, 1963? + +Dr. PERRY. On that day I had come over from the medical school for the +usual 1 o'clock rounds with the residents, and Dr. Ronald Jones and +I, he being chief surgical resident, were having dinner in the main +dining room there in the hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe how you happened to be called in to +render assistance to President Kennedy? + +Dr. PERRY. Somewhere around 12:30, and I cannot give you the time +accurately since I did not look at my watch in that particular instant, +an emergency page was put in for Dr. Tom Shires, who is chief of the +emergency surgical service in Parkland. I knew he was in Galveston +attending a meeting and giving a paper, and I asked Dr. Jones to pick +up the page to see if he or I could be of assistance. + +The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, at this time I must leave for a session at the +Supreme Court, and the hearing will continue. Congressman Ford, I am +going to ask you if you will preside in my absence. If you are obliged +to go to the Congress, Commissioner Dulles will preside, and I will be +available as soon as the Court session is over to be here with you. + +(At this point, Mr. Warren withdrew from the hearing room.) + +Representative FORD. Will you proceed, please? + +Mr. SPECTER. What action did you take after learning of the emergency +call, Dr. Perry? + +Dr. PERRY. The emergency room is one flight of stairs down from the +main dining cafeteria, so Dr. Jones and I went immediately to the +emergency room to render what assistance we could. + +Representative FORD. May I ask this: In the confirmation of the page +call, was it told to you that the President was the patient involved? + +Dr. PERRY. It was told to Dr. Jones, who picked up the page, that +President Kennedy had been shot and was being brought to Parkland. +We went down immediately to the emergency room to await his arrival. +However, he was there when we reached it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who else was present at the time you arrived on the scene +with the President? + +Dr. PERRY. When Dr. Jones and I entered the emergency room, the +place was filled with people, most of them officers and, apparently, +attendants to the Presidential procession. Dr. Carrico was in +attendance with the President in trauma room No. 1 when I walked in. +There were several other people there. Mrs. Kennedy was there with some +gentleman whom I didn't know. I have the impression there was another +physician in the room, but I cannot recall at this time who it was. +There were several nurses there. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were any other doctors present besides Dr. Carrico? + +Dr. PERRY. I think there was another doctor present, but I don't know +who it was, I don't recall. + +Mr. DULLES. Can I ask a question here, Mr. Specter? + +Mr. SPECTER. Certainly. + +Mr. DULLES. What is the procedure for somebody taking command in a +situation of this kind? Who takes over and who says who should do what? +I realize it is an emergency situation. Maybe that is an improper +question. + +Dr. PERRY. No, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. But it would be very helpful to me---- + +Dr. PERRY. No, sir; it is perfectly proper. + +Mr. DULLES. In reviewing the situation to see how you acted. + +In a military situation, you have somebody who takes command. + +Dr. PERRY. We do, too. And it essentially is based on the same kind of +thing. + +Mr. DULLES. I would like to hear about that. + +If it doesn't fit in here---- + +Mr. SPECTER. It is fine. + +Dr. PERRY. It is based on rank and experience, essentially. For +example, Dr. Carrico being the senior surgical resident in the area, +at the time President Kennedy was brought in to the emergency suite, +would have done what we felt was necessary and would have assumed +control of the situation being as there were interns and probably +medical students around the area, but being senior would take it. This, +of course, catapulted me into this because I was the senior attending +staff man when I arrived and at that time Dr. Carrico has noted I took +over direction of the care since I was senior of all the people there +and being as we are surgeons, the department of surgery operates that +portion of the emergency room and directs the care of the patients. + +Mr. DULLES. Did you try to clear the room of unnecessary people? + +Dr. PERRY. This was done, not by me, but by the nurse supervisor, +I assume, but several of the people were asked to leave the room. +Generally, this is not necessary. In an instance such as this, it is a +little more difficult, as you can understand. + +Mr. DULLES. Yes. + +Dr. PERRY. But this care of an acutely injured and acutely injured +patients goes on quite rapidly. Over 90,000 a year go through that +emergency room, and, as a result, people are well trained in the +performance of their duties. There is generally no problem in asking +anyone to leave the room because everyone is quite busy and they know +what they have to do and are proceeding to do it. + +Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much. + +Mr. SPECTER. Upon your arrival in the room, where President Kennedy was +situated, what did you observe as to his condition? + +Dr. PERRY. At the time I entered the door, Dr. Carrico was attending +him. He was attaching the Bennett apparatus to an endotracheal tube in +place to assist his respiration. + +The President was lying supine on the carriage, underneath the +overhead lamp. His shirt, coat, had been removed. There was a sheet +over his lower extremities and the lower portion of his trunk. He was +unresponsive. There was no evidence of voluntary motion. His eyes were +open, deviated up and outward, and the pupils were dilated and fixed. + +I did not detect a heart beat and was told there was no blood pressure +obtainable. + +He was, however, having ineffective spasmodic respiratory efforts. + +There was blood on the carriage. + +Mr. DULLES. What does that mean to the amateur, to the unprofessional? + +Dr. PERRY. Short, rather jerky contractions of his chest and diaphragm, +pulling for air. + +Mr. DULLES. I see. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were those respiratory efforts on his part alone or was he +being aided in his breathing at that time? + +Dr. PERRY. He had just attached the machine and at this point it was +not turned on. He was attempting to breathe. + +Mr. SPECTER. So that those efforts were being made at that juncture at +least without mechanical aid? + +Dr. PERRY. Those were spontaneous efforts on the part of the President. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you continue, then, Dr. Perry, as to what you +observed of his condition? + +Dr. PERRY. Yes, there was blood noted on the carriage and a large +avulsive wound on the right posterior cranium. + +I cannot state the size, I did not examine it at all. I just noted the +presence of lacerated brain tissue. In the lower part of the neck below +the Adams apple was a small, roughly circular wound of perhaps 5 mm. in +diameter from which blood was exuding slowly. + +I did not see any other wounds. + +I examined the chest briefly, and from the anterior portion did not see +anything. + +I pushed up the brace on the left side very briefly to feel for his +femoral pulse, but did not obtain any. + +I did no further examination because it was obvious that if any +treatment were to be carried out with any success a secure effective +airway must be obtained immediately. + +I asked Dr. Carrico if the wound on the neck was actually a wound or +had he begun a tracheotomy and he replied in the negative, that it was +a wound, and at that point---- + +Mr. DULLES. I am a little confused, I thought Dr. Carrico was absent. +That was an earlier period. + +Dr. PERRY. No, sir; he was present. + +Mr. DULLES. He was present? + +Dr. PERRY. Yes; he was present when I walked in the room and, at that +point, I asked someone to secure a tracheotomy tray but there was one +already there. Apparently Dr. Carrico had already asked them to set up +the tray. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, backtracking just a bit from the context of the +answer which you have just given, would you describe the quantity of +blood which you observed on the carriage when you first came into the +room where the President was located? + +Dr. PERRY. Mr. Specter, this is an extremely difficult thing. The +estimation of blood when it is either on the floor or on drapes or +bandages is grossly inaccurate in almost every instance. + +As you know, many hospitals have studied this extensively to try to +determine whether they were able to do it with any accuracy but they +cannot. I can just tell you there was considerable blood present on the +carriage and some on his head and some on the floor but how much, I +would hesitate to estimate. Several hundred CC's would be the closest +I could get but it could be from 200 to 1,500 and I know by experience +you cannot estimate it more accurately. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you characterize it as a very substantial or minor +blood loss? + +Dr. PERRY. A substantial blood loss. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, you mentioned the President's brace. Could you +describe that as specifically as possible? + +Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I did not examine it. I noted its presence only +in an effort to reach the femoral pulse and I pushed it up just +slightly so that I might palpate for the femoral pulse, I did no more +examination. + +Mr. SPECTER. In the course of seeking the femoral pulse, did you +observe or note an Ace bandage? + +Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. In the brace area? + +Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir. It was my impression, I saw a portion of an Ace +Bandage, an elastic supporting bandage on the right thigh. I did not +examine it at all but I just noted its presence. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did the Ace Bandage cover any portion of the President's +body that you were able to observe in addition to the right thigh? + +Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I did not go any further. I just noted its presence +right there at the junction at the hip. It could have been on the lower +trunk or the upper thigh, I don't know. I didn't care any further. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you continue to describe the resuscitative efforts +that were undertaken at that time? + +Dr. PERRY. At the beginning I had removed my coat and watch as I +entered the room and dropped it off in the corner, and as I was talking +to Dr. Carrico in regard to the neck wound, I glanced cursorily at the +head wound and noted its severe character, and then proceeded with the +tracheotomy after donning a pair of gloves. I asked that someone call +Dr. Kemp Clark, of neurosurgery, Dr. Robert McClelland, Dr. Charles +Baxter, assistant professors of surgery, to come and assist. There were +several other people in the room by this time, none of which I can +identify. I then began the tracheotomy making a transverse incision +right through the wound in the neck. + +Mr. SPECTER. Why did you elect to make the tracheotomy incision through +the wound in the neck, Dr. Perry? + +Dr. PERRY. The area of the wound, as pointed out to you in the lower +third of the neck anteriorly is customarily the spot one would +electively perform the tracheotomy. + +This is one of the safest and easiest spots to reach the trachea. In +addition the presence of the wound indicated to me there was possibly +an underlaying wound to the neck muscles in the neck, the carotid +artery or the jugular vein. If you are going to control these it is +necessary that the incision be as low, that is toward the heart or +lungs as the wound if you are going to obtain adequate control. + +Therefore, for expediency's sake I went directly to that level to +obtain control of the airway. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe, in a general way and in lay terms, the +purpose for the tracheotomy at that time? + +Dr. PERRY. Dr. Carrico had very judicially placed an endotracheal tube +but unfortunately due to the injury to the trachea, the cuff which +is an inflatable balloon on the endotracheal tube was not below the +tracheal injury and thus he could not secure the adequate airway that +you would require to maintain respiration. + +(At this point, Mr. McCloy entered the hearing room.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, you mentioned an injury to the trachea. + +Will you describe that as precisely as you can, please? + +Dr. PERRY. Yes. Once the transverse incision through the skin and +subcutaneous tissues was made, it was necessary to separate the strap +muscles covering the anterior muscles of the windpipe and thyroid. At +that point the trachea was noted to be deviated slightly to the left +and I found it necessary to sever the exterior strap muscles on the +other side to reach the trachea. + +I noticed a small ragged laceration of the trachea on the anterior +lateral right side. I could see the endotracheal tube which had been +placed by Dr. Carrico in the wound, but there was evidence of air and +blood around the tube because I noted the cuff was just above the +injury to the trachea. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you now proceed to describe what efforts you made to +save the President's life? + +Dr. PERRY. At this point, I had entered the neck, and Dr. Baxter and +Dr. McClelland arrived shortly thereafter. I cannot describe with +accuracy their exact arrival. I only know I looked up and saw Dr. +Baxter as I began the tracheotomy and he took a pair of gloves to +assist me. + +Dr. McClelland's presence was known to me at the time he picked up an +instrument and said, "Here, I will hand it to you." + +At that point I was down in the trachea. Once the trachea had been +exposed I took the knife and incised the windpipe at the point of the +bullet injury. And asked that the endotracheal tube previously placed +by Dr. Carrico be withdrawn slightly so I could insert a tracheotomy +tube at this level. This was effected and attached to an anesthesia +machine which had been brought down by Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Giesecke for +better control of circulation. + +I noticed there was free air and blood in the right mediastinum and +although I could not see any evidence, myself any evidence, of it in +the pleura of the lung the presence of this blood in this area could be +indicative of the underlying condition. + +I asked someone to put in a chest tube to allow sealed drainage of any +blood or air which might be accumulated in the right hemothorax. + +This occurred while I was doing the tracheotomy. I did not know at the +time when I inserted the tube but I was informed subsequently that Dr. +Paul Peters, assistant professor of urology, and Dr. Charles Baxter, +previously noted in this record, inserted the chest tube and attached +it to underwater seal or drainage of the right pneumothorax. + +Mr. DULLES. How long did this tracheotomy take, approximately? + +Dr. PERRY. I don't know that for sure, Mr. Dulles. However, I have--a +matter of 3 to 5 minutes, perhaps even less. This was very--I didn't +look at the watch, I have done them at those speeds and faster when I +have had to. So I would estimate that. + +At this point also Dr. Carrico, having previously attached and +assisting with the attaching of the anesthesia machine was doing +another cut down on the right leg; Dr. Ronald Jones was doing an +additional cut down, venous section on the left arm for the insertion +of plastic cannula into veins so one may rapidly and effectively infuse +blood and fluids. These were being done. + +It is to Dr. Carrico's credit, I think he ordered the hydrocortisone +for the President having known he suffered from adrenal insufficiency +and in this particular instance being quite busy he had the presence +of mind to recall this and order what could have been a lifesaving +measure, I think. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you identify who Dr. Baxter is? + +Dr. PERRY. Yes. Dr. Charles Baxter is, when I noted when I asked for +the call, is an assistant professor of surgery also and Dr. McClelland. + +Mr. SPECTER. And is Dr. McClelland occupying a similar position at +Parkland Memorial Hospital as Dr. Baxter? + +Dr. PERRY. That is correct. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you identify Dr. Jenkins? + +Dr. PERRY. Dr. M. T. Jenkins is professor and chairman of the +department of anesthesiology and chief of the anesthesia service, and +Dr. Giesecke is assistant professor of anesthesiology at Parkland. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you now identified all of the medical personnel +whom you can recollect who were present at the time the aid was being +rendered to the President? + +Dr. PERRY. No, sir; several other people entered the room. I recall +seeing Dr. Bashour who is an associate professor of medicine and chief +of the cardiology section at Parkland. + +Dr. Don W. Seldin, who is professor and chairman of the department +of medicine, and I previously mentioned Dr. Paul Peters, assistant +professor of urology, and I believe that Dr. Jackie Hunt of the +department of anesthesiology was also there, and there were other +people, I cannot identify them, several nurses and several others. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. William Kemp Clark arrived at about that time? + +Dr. PERRY. Dr. Clark's arrival was first noted to me after the +completion of the tracheotomy, and at this point, the cardiotachyscope +had been attached to Mr. Kennedy to detect any electrical activity and +although I did not note any, being occupied, it was related to me there +was initially evidence of a spontaneous electrical activity in the +President's heart. + +However, at the completion of the tracheotomy and the institution of +the sealed tube drainage of the chest, Dr. Clark and I began external +cardiac massage. This was monitored by Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Giesecke who +informed us we were obtaining a satisfactory carotid pulse in the neck, +and someone whose name I do not know at this time, said they could also +feel a femoral pulse in the leg. We continued external cardiac massage, +I continued it as Dr. Clark examined the head wound and observed the +cardiotachyscope. The exact time interval that this took I cannot tell +you. I continued it until Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Clark informed me there +was no activity at all, in the cardiotachyscope and that there had been +no neurological or muscular response to our resuscitative effort at +all and that the wound which the President sustained of his head was a +mortal wound, and at that point we determined that he had expired and +we abandoned efforts of resuscitation. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you identify Dr. Clark's specialty for the record, +please? + +Dr. PERRY. Dr. Clark is professor and chairman of the department of +neurosurgery at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical School, +and chief of the neurosurgical services at Parkland Hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, you described a condition in the right mediastinum. +Would you elaborate on what your views were of the condition at the +time you were rendering this treatment? + +Dr. PERRY. The condition of this area? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir. + +Dr. PERRY. There was both blood, free blood and air in the right +superior mediastinum. That is the space that is located between the +lungs and the heart at that level. + +As I noted, I did not see any underlying injury of the pleura, the +coverings of the lungs or of the lungs themselves. But in the presence +of this large amount of blood in this area, one would be unable to +detect small injuries to the underlying structures. The air was +indicated by the fact that there was some frothing of this blood +present, bubbling which could have been due to the tracheal injury or +an underlying injury to the lung. + +Since the morbidity attendant upon insertion of an anterior chest tube +for sealed drainage is negligible and the morbidity which attends a +pneumothorax is considerable, I elected to have the chest tube put +in place because we were giving him positive pressure oxygen and the +possibility of inducing a tension on pneumothorax would be quite high +in such instances. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is pneumothorax? + +Dr. PERRY. Hemothorax would be blood in the free chest cavity and +pneumothorax would be air in the free chest cavity underlying collapse +of the lungs. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would that have been caused by the injury which you noted +to the President's trachea? + +Dr. PERRY. There was no evidence of a hemothorax or a pneumothorax +through my examination; only it is sufficient this could have been +observed because of the free blood in the mediastinum. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were the symptoms which excited your suspicion causable by +the injury to the trachea? + +Dr. PERRY. They were. + +Mr. SPECTER. At what time was the pronouncement of death made? + +Dr. PERRY. Approximately 1 o'clock. + +Mr. SPECTER. By whom was death announced? + +Dr. PERRY. Dr. Kemp Clark. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there any special reason why it was Dr. Kemp Clark who +pronounced the President had died? + +Dr. PERRY. It was the opinion of those of us who had attended the +President that the ultimate cause of his demise was a severe injury to +his brain with subsequent loss of neurologic function and subsequent +massive loss of blood, and thus Dr. Clark, being a neurosurgeon, signed +the death certificate. + +Mr. SPECTER. In your opinion, would the President have survived the +injury which he sustained to the neck which you have described? + +Dr. PERRY. Barring the advent of complications this wound was +tolerable, and I think he would have survived it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all of the treatment which was +rendered to the President by the medical team in attendance at Parkland +Memorial Hospital. + +Dr. PERRY. In essence I have, Mr. Specter. I do not know the exact +quantities of balance salt solutions or blood that was given. I +mentioned the 300 mg. of hydrocortisone Dr. Carrico ordered and, of +course, he was given oxygen under pressure which has been previously +recorded. The quantities of substances or any other drugs I have no +knowledge of. + +Mr. SPECTER. In general you have recounted the treatment? + +Dr. PERRY. That is correct. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you now stated for the record all of the individuals +who were in attendance in treating the President that you can recollect +at this time? + +Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; I have. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you now describe as specifically as you can, the +injury which you noted in the President's head? + +Dr. PERRY. As I mentioned previously in the record, I made only a +cursory examination of the President's head. I noted a large avulsive +wound of the right parietal occipital area, in which both scalp and +portions of skull were absent, and there was severe laceration of +underlying brain tissue. My examination did not go any further than +that. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you, to be specific, observe a smaller wound below the +large avulsed area which you have described? + +Dr. PERRY. I did not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there blood in that area of the President's head? + +Dr. PERRY. There was. + +Mr. SPECTER. Which might have obscured such a wound? + +Dr. PERRY. There was a considerable amount of blood at the head of the +cartilage. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you now describe as particularly as possible the +neck wound you observed? + +Dr. PERRY. This was situated in the lower anterior one-third of the +neck, approximately 5 mm. in diameter. + +It was exuding blood slowly which partially obscured it. Its edges were +neither ragged nor were they punched out, but rather clean. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described the neck wound as specifically as +you can? + +Dr. PERRY. I have. + +Mr. SPECTER. Based on your observations of the neck wound alone, do +you have a sufficient basis to form an opinion as to whether it was an +entrance wound or an exit wound, + +Dr. PERRY. No, sir. I was unable to determine that since I did not +ascertain the exact trajectory of the missile. The operative procedure +which I performed was restricted to securing an adequate airway and +insuring there was no injury to the carotid artery or jugular vein at +that level and at that point I made the procedure. + +Mr. SPECTER. Based on the appearance of the neck wound alone, could it +have been either an entrance or an exit wound? + +Dr. PERRY. It could have been either. + +Mr. SPECTER. Permit me to supply some additional facts, Dr. Perry, +which I shall ask you to assume as being true for purposes of having +you express an opinion. + +Assume first of all that the President was struck by a 6.5-mm. +copper-jacketed bullet fired from a gun having a muzzle velocity +of approximately 2,000 feet per second, with the weapon being +approximately 160 to 250 feet from the President, with the bullet +striking him at an angle of declination of approximately 45 degrees, +striking the President on the upper right posterior thorax just above +the upper border of the scapula, being 14 cm. from the tip of the +right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid +process, passing through the President's body striking no bones, +traversing the neck and sliding between the large muscles in the +posterior portion of the President's body through a fascia channel +without violating the pleural cavity but bruising the apex of the right +pleural cavity, and bruising the most apical portion of the right lung +inflicting a hematoma to the right side of the larynx, which you have +just described, and striking the trachea causing the injury which you +described, and then exiting from the hole that you have described in +the midline of the neck. + +Now, assuming those facts to be true, would the hole which you observed +in the neck of the President be consistent with an exit wound under +those circumstances? + +Dr. PERRY. Certainly would be consistent with an exit wound. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, assuming one additional fact that there was no bullet +found in the body of the President, and assuming the facts which I have +just set forth to be true, do you have an opinion as to whether the +wound which you observed in the President's neck was an entrance or an +exit wound? + +Dr. PERRY. A full jacketed bullet without deformation passing through +skin would leave a similar wound for an exit and entrance wound +and with the facts which you have made available and with these +assumptions, I believe that it was an exit wound. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have sufficient facts available to you to render +an opinion as to the cause of the injury which you observed in the +President's head? + +Dr. PERRY. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you had an opportunity to examine the autopsy report? + +Dr. PERRY. I have. + +Mr. SPECTER. And are the facts set forth in the autopsy report +consistent with your observations and views or are they inconsistent in +any way with your findings and opinions? + +Dr. PERRY. They are quite consistent and I noted initially that they +explained very nicely the circumstances as we observed them at the time. + +Mr. SPECTER. Could you elaborate on that last answer, Dr. Perry? + +Dr. PERRY. Yes. There was some considerable speculation, as you will +recall, as to whether there were one or two bullets and as to from +whence they came. Dr. Clark and I were queried extensively in respect +to this and in addition Dr. Carrico could not determine whether there +were one or two bullets from our initial examination. + +I say that because we did what was necessary in the emergency +procedure, and abandoned any efforts of examination at the termination. +I did not ascertain the trajectory of any of the missiles. As a result +I did not know whether there was evidence for 1 or 2 or even 3 bullets +entering and at the particular time it was of no importance. + +Mr. SPECTER. But based on the additional factors provided in the +autopsy report, do you have an opinion at this time as to the number of +bullets there were? + +Dr. PERRY. The wounds as described from the autopsy report and coupled +with the wounds I have observed it would appear there were two missiles +that struck the President. + +Mr. SPECTER. And based on the additional factors which I have provided +to you by way of hypothetical assumption, and the factors present in +the autopsy report from your examination of that report, what does the +source of the bullets seem to have been to you? + +Dr. PERRY. That I could not say. I can only determine their pathway, on +the basis of these reports within the President's body. + +As to their ultimate source not knowing any of the circumstances +surrounding it, I would not have any speculation. + +Mr. SPECTER. From what direction would the bullets have come based on +all of those factors? + +Dr. PERRY. The bullets would have come from behind the President based +on these factors. + +Mr. SPECTER. And from the level, from below or above the President? + +Dr. PERRY. Not having examined any of the wounds with the exception of +the anterior neck wounds, I could not say. This wound, as I noted was +about 5 mm., and roughly circular in shape. There is no way for me to +determine. + +Mr. SPECTER. Based upon a point of entrance in the body of the +President which I described to you as being 14 cm. from the right +acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process +and coupling that with your observation of the neck wound, would that +provide a sufficient basis for you to form an opinion as to the path of +the bullet, as to whether it was level, up or down? + +Dr. PERRY. Yes, it would. + +In view of the fact there was an injury to the right lateral portion +of the trachea and a wound in the neck if one were to extend a line +roughly between these two, it would be going slightly superiorly, that +is cephalad toward the head, from anterior to posterior, which would +indicate that the missile entered from slightly above and behind. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, have you been a part of or participated in any +press conferences? + +Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; I have + +Mr. SPECTER. And by whom, if anyone, were the press conferences +arranged? + +Dr. PERRY. The initial press conference, to the best of my knowledge, +was arranged by Mr. Hawkes who was identified to me as being of +the White House Press, and Mr. Steve Landregan of the hospital +administration there at Parkland, and Dr. Kemp Clark. + +They called me, I was in the operating suite at the time to assist with +the care of the Governor, and they called and asked me if it would be +possible for me to come down to a press conference. + +Mr. SPECTER. At about what time did that call come to you, Doctor? + +Dr. PERRY. I am not real sure about that but probably around 2 o'clock. + +Mr. SPECTER. What action, if any, did you take in response to that call? + +Dr. PERRY. I put in a page for Dr. Baxter and Dr. McClelland since they +were also involved, and went down to the emergency room where I met Mr. +Hawkes and Dr. Clark. And from there we went up to classrooms one and +two which had been combined into a large press room, and was packed +with gentlemen and ladies of the press. + +Mr. SPECTER. In what building was that located? + +Dr. PERRY. This was in Parkland Hospital, in the classroom section. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to identify which news media were present at +that time? + +Dr. PERRY. No, sir; there were numerous people in the room. I would +estimate maybe a hundred. + +Mr. SPECTER. What doctors spoke at that press conference? + +Dr. PERRY. Dr. Clark and I answered the questions. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who spoke first as between you and Dr. Clark? + +Dr. PERRY. I did. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you state as specifically as you can the questions +which were asked of you at that time and the answers which you gave? + +Dr. PERRY. Mr. Specter, I would preface this by saying that, as you +know, I have been interviewed on numerous occasions subsequent to that +time, and I cannot recall with accuracy the questions that were asked. +They, in general, were similar to the questions that were asked here. +The press were given essentially the same, but in no detail such as +have been given here. I was asked, for example, what I felt caused the +President's death, the nature of the wound, from whence they came, +what measures were taken for resuscitation, who were the people in +attendance, at what time was it determined that he was beyond our help. + +Mr. SPECTER. What responses did you give to questions relating to the +source of the bullets, if such questions were asked? + +Dr. PERRY. I could not. I pointed out that both Dr. Clark and I had no +way of knowing from whence the bullets came. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you asked how many bullets there were? + +Dr. PERRY. We were, and our reply was it was impossible with the +knowledge we had at hand to ascertain if there were 1 or 2 bullets, +or more. We were given, similarly, to the discussion here today, +hypothetical situations. "Is it possible that such could have been the +case, or such and such?" If it was possible that there was one bullet. +To this, I replied in the affirmative, it was possible and conceivable +that it was only one bullet, but I did not know. + +Mr. SPECTER. What would the trajectory, or conceivable course of one +bullet have been, Dr. Perry, to account for the injuries which you +observed in the President, as you stated it? + +Dr. PERRY. Since I observed only two wounds in my cursory examination, +it would have necessitated the missile striking probably a bony +structure and being deviated in its course in order to account for +these two wounds. + +Mr. SPECTER. What bony structure was it conceivably? + +Dr. PERRY. It required striking the spine. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you express a professional opinion that that did, +in fact, happen or it was a matter of speculation that it could have +happened? + +Dr. PERRY. I expressed it as a matter of speculation that this was +conceivable. But, again, Dr. Clark and I emphasized that we had no way +of knowing. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you now recounted as specifically as you can +recollect what occurred at that first press conference or is it +practical for you to give any further detail to the contents of that +press conference? + +Dr. PERRY. I do not recall any specific details any further than that. + +Representative FORD. Mr. Specter--was there ever a recording kept of +the questions and answers at that interview, Dr. Perry? + +Dr. PERRY. This was one of the things I was mad about, Mr. Ford. There +were microphones, and cameras, and the whole bit, as you know, and +during the course of it a lot of these hypothetical situations and +questions that were asked to us would often be asked by someone on +this side and recorded by some one on this, and I don't know who was +recorded and whether they were broadcasting it directly. There were +tape recorders there and there were television cameras with their +microphones. I know there were recordings made but who made them I +don't know and, of course, portions of it would be given to this group +and questions answered here and, as a result, considerable questions +were not answered in their entirety and even some of them that were +asked, I am sure were misunderstood. It was bedlam. + +Representative FORD. I was thinking, was there an official recording +either made by the hospital officials or by the White House people or +by any government agency? + +Dr. PERRY. Not to my knowledge. + +Representative FORD. A true recording of everything that was said, the +questions asked, and the answers given? + +Dr. PERRY. Not to my knowledge. + +Mr. DULLES. Was there any reasonably good account in any of the press +of this interview? + +Dr. PERRY. No, sir. + +Representative FORD. May I ask---- + +Dr. PERRY. I have failed to see one that was asked. + +Representative FORD. In other words, you subsequently read or heard +what was allegedly said by you and by Dr. Clark and Dr. Carrico. Were +those reportings by the news media accurate or inaccurate as to what +you and others said? + +Dr. PERRY. In general, they were inaccurate. There were some that were +fairly close, but I, as you will probably surmise, was pretty full +after both Friday and Sunday, and after the interviews again, following +the operation of which I was a member on Sunday, I left town, and I +did not read a lot of them, but of those which I saw I found none that +portrayed it exactly as it happened. Nor did I find any that reported +our statements exactly as they were given. They were frequently taken +out of context. They were frequently mixed up as to who said what or +identification as to which person was who. + +Representative FORD. This interview took place on Sunday, the 24th, did +you say? + +Dr. PERRY. No, there were several interviews, Mr. Ford. We had one in +the afternoon, Friday afternoon, and then I spent almost the entire +day Saturday in the administrative suite at the hospital answering +questions to people of the press, and some medical people of the +American Medical Association. And then, of course, Sunday, following +the operation on Oswald, I again attended the press conference since +I was the first in attendance with him. And, subsequently, there +was another conference on Monday conducted by the American Medical +Association, and a couple of more interviews with some people whom I +don't even recall. + +Representative FORD. Would you say that these errors that were reported +were because of a lack of technical knowledge as to what you as a +physician were saying, or others were saying? + +Dr. PERRY. Certainly that could be it in part, but it was not all. +Certainly a part of it was lack of attention. A question would be +asked and you would incompletely answer it and another question +would be asked and they had gotten what they wanted without really +understanding, and they would go on and it would go out of context. +For example, on the speculation on the ultimate source of bullets, I +obviously knew less about it than most people because I was in the +hospital at the time and didn't know the circumstances surrounding it +until it was over. I was much too busy and yet I was quoted as saying +that the bullet, there was probably one bullet, which struck and +deviated upward which came from the front, and what I had replied was +to a question, was it conceivable that this could have happened, and I +said yes, it is conceivable. + +I have subsequently learned that to use a straight affirmative word +like "yes" is not good relations; that one should say it is conceivable +and not give a straight yes or no answer. + +"It is conceivable" was dropped and the "yes" was used, and this was +happening over and over again. Of course, Dr. Shires, for example, who +was the professor and chairman of the department was identified in one +press release as chief resident. + +Mr. DULLES. As what? I didn't get it. + +Dr. PERRY. As chief resident. And myself, as his being my superior, +whereas Dr. Ronald Jones was chief resident of course, nothing could be +further from the truth in identifying Dr. Shires as chief resident. I +was identified as a resident surgeon in the Dallas paper. And I am not +impressed with the accuracy of the press reports. + +Mr. McCLOY. I don't know whether you have covered this very well. +Let me ask you about the wound, the wound that you examined in the +President's neck. + +You said that it would have been tolerable. Would his speech have been +impaired? + +Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I don't think so. The injury was below the larynx, +and certainly barring the advent of any complication would have healed +without any difficulty. + +Mr. McCLOY. He would have had a relatively normal life? + +Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. Did you, any other time, or other than the press conference +or any other period, say that you thought this was an exit wound? + +Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. McCLOY. When the President was brought, when you first saw the +President, was he fully clothed, or did you cut the clothing away? + +Dr. PERRY. Not at the time I saw him. Dr. Carrico and the nurses were +all in attendance, they had removed his coat and his shirt, which is +standard procedure, while we were proceeding about the examination, for +them to do so. + +Mr. McCLOY. But you didn't actually remove his shirt? + +Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. McCLOY. Did you get the doctor's experience with regard to gunshot +wounds? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. McCLOY. You said something to the effect that, of knowing the +President had an adrenalin insufficiency, is that something you could +observe? + +Dr. PERRY. This is common medical knowledge, sir, that he had had +in the past necessarily taken adrenalin steroids to support this +insufficiency. Dr. Carrico, at this moment of great stress, recalled +this, and requested this be given to him at that time, this is +extremely important because people who have adrenalin insufficiency are +unable to mobilize this hormone at the time of any great stress and it +may be fatal without support from exogenous drugs. + +Mr. McCLOY. In other words, you had a general medical history of the +President before he was--common knowledge. + +Dr. PERRY. No more so than anyone else, sir, except this would have +stuck with us, sir, since they were already in that line. + +Mr. McCLOY. Did you discuss with any of the other doctors present, and +you named quite a number of them, as to whether this was an exit wound +or an entrance wound? + +Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; we did at the time. But our discussion was +necessarily limited by the fact that none of us knew, someone asked me +now--you must remember that actually the only people who saw this wound +for sure were Dr. Carrico and myself, and some of the other doctors +were quoted as saying something about the wound which actually they +never said at all because they never saw it, because on their arrival +I had already made the incision through the wound, and despite what +the press releases may have said neither Dr. Carrico nor myself could +say whether it was an entrance or an exit wound from the nature of the +wound itself and Dr. McClelland was quoted, for example, as saying he +thought it was an exit wound, but that was not what he said at all +because he didn't even see it. + +Mr. McCLOY. And it is a fact, is it not, that you did not see what we +now are supposed to believe was the entrance wound? + +Dr. PERRY. No, sir; we did not examine him. At that time, we attended +to the matters of expediency that were life-saving and the securing +of an adequate airway and the stanching of massive hemorrhage are +really the two medical emergencies; most everything else can wait, but +those must be attended to in a matter of minutes and consequently to +termination of treatment I had no morbid curiosity, my work was done, +and actually I was rather anxious to leave. + +Mr. McCLOY. That is all. + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. DULLES. I suggest, Mr. Specter, if you feel it is feasible, you +send to the doctor the accounts of his press conference or conferences. + +And possibly, if you are willing, sir, you could send us a letter, send +to the Commission a letter, pointing out the various points in these +press conferences where you are inaccurately quoted, so we can have +that as a matter of record. + +Is that feasible? + +Dr. PERRY. That is, sir. + +Would you prefer that each clipping be edited individually or a general +statement? + +Mr. DULLES. Well, I think it would be better to have each clipping +dealt with separately. Obviously, if you have answered one point in one +clipping it won't be necessary to answer that point if it is repeated +in another clipping. + +Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Just deal with the new points. + +Dr. PERRY. I can and will do this. + +Representative FORD. This would be where Dr. Perry is quoted himself, +or Dr. Carrico, or anyone else, they would only pass judgment on the +quotes concerning themselves. + +Mr. DULLES. That would be correct. + +Dr. PERRY. Yes, because some of the other circumstances in some of the +press releases which have come to my attention have not been entirely +accurate either, regarding sequence of events, and although I would not +have knowledge about those you would not want those added necessarily, +just any statement alluded to have been made by me. + +Mr. DULLES. I think that would be better. + +Don't you think so, Mr. Chairman? + +Representative FORD. I think it would be the proper procedure. + +Is this a monumental job, Mr. Specter? + +Mr. SPECTER. No, I think it is one which can be managed, Congressman +Ford. I might say we have done that with some of the clippings. + +There was an article, as the deposition records will show when you have +an opportunity to review them, they have not been transcribed, as to an +article which appeared in La Expres, statements were attributed to Dr. +McClelland---- + +Mr. DULLES. Which paper? + +Mr. SPECTER. A French paper, La Expres. And I questioned the doctors +quoted therein and developed for the record what was true and what was +false on the statements attributed to them, so we have undertaken that +in some circles but not as extensively as you suggest as to Dr. Perry, +because we have been trying diligently to get the tape records of the +television interviews, and we were unsuccessful. I discussed this with +Dr. Perry in Dallas last Wednesday, and he expressed an interest in +seeing them, and I told him we would make them available to him prior +to his appearance, before deposition or before the Commission, except +our efforts at CBS and NBC, ABC and everywhere including New York, +Dallas and other cities were to no avail. + +The problem is they have not yet cataloged all of the footage which +they have, and I have been advised by the Secret Service, by Agent John +Howlett, that they have an excess of 200 hours of transcripts among all +of the events and they just have not cataloged them and could not make +them available. + +Mr. DULLES. Do you intend to catalog them? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes, they do, Mr. Dulles. They intend to do that +eventually in their normal process, and the Secret Service is trying +to expedite the news media to give us those, and it was our thought as +to the film clips, which would be the most direct or the recordings +which would be the most direct, to make comparisons between the reports +in the news media and what Dr. Perry said at that time, and the facts +which we have from the doctors through our depositions and transcript +today. + +Representative FORD. Can you give us any time estimate when this +catalog and comparison might be made? + +Mr. SPECTER. Only that they are working on it right now, have been for +some time, but it may be a matter of a couple of weeks until they can +turn it over. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Chairman, I have some doubt as to the present propriety +of making, of having the doctor make, comments in respect to a +particular group of newspaper articles. There have been comments, as +we all know, around the world, of great variety and great extent, +and it would be practically impossible, I suppose, to check all of +the accounts and in failing to check one would not wish to have it +suggested that others, the accuracy of others was being endorsed. + +I would suggest that the staff make an examination of the files that we +have of the comments, together with such tape recordings as may have +been taken of the actual press conferences, and after that examination +is made we can then determine, perhaps a little more effectively, what +might be done to clarify this situation so that it would conform to +the actual statements that the doctor has made. + +Mr. DULLES. Well, Mr. McCloy, it is quite satisfactory with me and I +agree with you we cannot run down all of the rumors in all of the press +and it is quite satisfactory with me to wait and see whether we have +adequate information to deal with this situation when we get in the +complete tapes of the various television, radio and other appearances, +so that we have a pretty complete record of what these two witnesses +and others have said on the points we have been discussing here today. + +So I quite agree we will await this presentation to the doctors until +we have had a further chance to review this situation. + +What I wanted to be sure was that when we are through with this we do +have in our files and records adequate information to deal with a great +many of the false rumors that have been spread on the basis of false +interpretation of these appearances before television, radio, and so +forth and so on. + +Representative FORD. Is that all, Mr. Dulles, and Mr. McCloy? + +Mr. DULLES. Yes. + +Mr. McCLOY. May I ask at this point, did you examine Governor Connally, +too? + +Dr. PERRY. I was in the operating room briefly to see about his leg. + +Mr. McCLOY. You haven't come to that point in your interrogation. + +Mr. SPECTER. I did not. + +Mr. McCLOY. I understood you to say you did examine Oswald. + +Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; I operated on Oswald. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described in general the press conferences +in which you participated immediately after the treatment which you +rendered to President Kennedy and following the treatment which you +assisted in rendering to Mr. Oswald? + +Dr. PERRY. To the best of my knowledge. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you make an effort to leave the area of Dallas +immediately following the Monday after the weekend of the assassination +and the killing of Oswald in an effort to get away from the press +conferences? + +Dr. PERRY. I left Monday afternoon approximately 3 o'clock. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where did you go? + +Dr. PERRY. I went to McAllen, Tex., to the home of my mother-in-law. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how far is that from Dallas? + +Dr. PERRY. About 560 miles. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you leave instructions as to revealing the destination +that you set upon? + +Dr. PERRY. No, only with Dr. Shires and my secretary. + +Mr. SPECTER. And were you contacted by the press in McAllen? + +Dr. PERRY. The following day. + +Mr. SPECTER. And were your whereabouts given either by Dr. Shires or +your secretary? + +Dr. PERRY. No, it was not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you relate briefly the sequence that followed in +McAllen, Tex. + +Dr. PERRY. The gentleman from UPI came out and knocked on the door, +and I was quite surprised, not having told anyone where I was going, +and I asked him if he would mind telling me how he found out how I was +there, and looking back at it I was kind of naive, I went to a relative +and told no one else. He had a wire in his hands which he showed me +indicating it had come from the Dallas office, naming the place where I +was, and the exact address, and who I was staying with. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did he ask to take pictures of you? + +Dr. PERRY. He did. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was your response? + +Dr. PERRY. This was denied. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did he ask you questions? + +Dr. PERRY. He did, essentially the same questions which I have +reiterated as to the emergency treatment that was undertaken. He did +not press the point as to the number of bullets or anything of that, +and I told him I had no knowledge of that. He only asked about the +emergency measures I had taken and I related them to him as I have to +you. + +Mr. SPECTER. Subsequently, did an article appear about you in the +Saturday Evening Post? + +Dr. PERRY. It did. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly the circumstances surrounding +the appearance of that article as you felt them to be? + +Dr. PERRY. We were contacted, not I directly but Dr. Shires, by the +medical editor of the Saturday Evening Post, this was all related to me +by Dr. Shires, in regard to a possible story. This was declined, since +Dr. Shires and those of us in the department felt that the news value +was gone and this was commercialism, and they told Dr. Shires, I am +told, that they would not print anything. + +However, an article appearing under a New York Herald Tribune +uncopyrighted by-line apparently was subsequently acquired by them and +published. + +Mr. SPECTER. And was that article accurate, inaccurate, or what was the +level of accuracy of the contents thereof? + +Dr. PERRY. The level of accuracy was not very good at all. It was +overly dramatic, garish and in poor taste, and ethically damaging to me. + +Mr. SPECTER. In what way was it ethically damaging to you, Dr. Perry? + +Dr. PERRY. As you know, it is our policy that the physician's name +in the treatment of any patient be essentially kept quiet. There +are unusual circumstances surrounding this one, of course, and our +names were made public. But this mentions my name freely, published a +photograph that apparently was taken of me at the press conference and +had previously appeared in a newspaper, and a picture of the emergency +room, trauma room No. 1, and although most of the people in the medical +profession, I have subsequently been assured by the Society of Surgeons +and AMA, that they realize I had no part in it, which is obvious to +them because of the gross inaccuracies. Nonetheless it is harmful to +me as a member of the faculty of the medical school to have such an +article in print. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, did you have occasion to discuss your +observations with Comdr. James J. Humes of the Bethesda Naval Hospital? + +Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. SPECTER. When did that conversation occur? + +Dr. PERRY. My knowledge as to the exact accuracy of it is obviously +in doubt. I was under the initial impression that I talked to him on +Friday, but I understand it was on Saturday. I didn't recall exactly +when. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an independent recollection at this moment as +to whether it was on Friday or Saturday? + +Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I have thought about it again and the events +surrounding that weekend were very kaleidoscopic, and I talked with Dr. +Humes on two occasions, separated by a very short interval of, I think +it was, 30 minutes or an hour or so, it could have been a little longer. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the medium of your conversation? + +Dr. PERRY. Over the telephone. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did he identify himself to you as Dr. Humes of Bethesda? + +Dr. PERRY. He did. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you state as specifically as you can recollect the +conversation that you first had with him? + +Dr. PERRY. He advised me that he could not discuss with me the findings +of necropsy, that he had a few questions he would like to clarify. The +initial phone call was in relation to my doing a tracheotomy. Since I +had made the incision directly through the wound in the neck, it made +it difficult for them to ascertain the exact nature of this wound. Of +course, that did not occur to me at the time. I did what appeared to +me to be medically expedient. And when I informed him that there was a +wound there and I suspected an underlying wound of the trachea and even +perhaps of the great vessels he advised me that he thought this action +was correct and he said he could not relate to me any of the other +findings. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate to me in lay language what necropsy is? + +Dr. PERRY. Autopsy, postmortem examination. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the content of the second conversation which you +had with Comdr. Humes, please? + +Dr. PERRY. The second conversation was in regard to the placement of +the chest tubes for drainage of the chest cavity. And I related to him, +as I have to you, the indications that prompted me to advise that this +be done at that time. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, did you observe any bruising of the neck +muscles of President Kennedy when you were engaged in your operative +procedure that you have described? + +Dr. PERRY. This bruising, as you describe, would have been obscured +by the fact that there was a large amount of blood, hematoma, present +in the neck and the mediastinum and hence all the blood tissues were +covered by this blood. + +Mr. SPECTER. A few moments ago in response to a question by Mr. McCloy +I believe you commented that, as you recollected it, very few of the +doctors would have had an opportunity to observe the hole in the +President's neck and I think you said that only you and Dr. Carrico +would have had such an opportunity. Can you state, with absolute +certainty, at which point the various doctors arrived in the room? And +bear in mind on this that while you have not had the opportunity to +review the depositions, some of the other doctors have expressed the +view that they have had an opportunity to see the wound. Specifically, +Dr. M. T. Jenkins said in a deposition that he did see the wound, and +I have not had an opportunity to ask you that question before, because +you made the comment during the course of the testimony today. + +But I would like your comment on, in your opinion, whether the other +doctors would have had an opportunity, perhaps, to observe the neck +wound prior to the tracheotomy? + +Dr. PERRY. Since I don't know with accuracy the exact times of their +arrival, it is conceivable that others could have seen it. And Dr. +Jenkins was apparently one of the early arrivals in the room. + +However, at the time that I arrived, as I related, Dr. Carrico was +present and Dr. Jones and I. Dr. Jones immediately directed himself +toward obtaining another intravenous infusion, and I immediately went +to the neck wound. At the time of arrival of the other surgeons which +assisted me in the operation, I had already made the incision. + +Dr. Jenkins could have arrived at the time that I was preparing to make +the incision and seen the wound. It is possible, I don't know when he +came in the room. I know he did not examine the wound per se. + +Mr. SPECTER. And similarly Dr. Jones has commented in the course of his +deposition about the situation with respect to the wound in the neck. + +Based on your observations, would it be consistent with what you know +to be fact that he had an opportunity to examine the neck wound? + +Dr. PERRY. I know he might have seen it because he and I entered the +room simultaneously, we came down together. To my knowledge, he did not +examine the wound although he might have noted the wound present as I +went to work. + +Mr. SPECTER. Specifically what did he do then as you went to work? + +Dr. PERRY. He was standing immediately on my left at that point, doing +a venesection, a cut down in the left arm for the administration of +fluids so he was able to observe the performance of the tracheotomy. + +Mr. SPECTER. In your opinion, Dr. Perry, was President Kennedy alive or +dead on arrival at Parkland? + +Dr. PERRY. The President was alive in that spontaneous ineffective +respiratory motions were observed by me, and although I never detected +a pulse or a heartbeat, I was told there was also electrical activity +on the cardiotachyscope when it was initially attached indicating there +was spontaneous activity of the heart. + +He was, therefore alive for medical purposes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who told you about the electrical activity on the +cardiotachyscope? + +Dr. PERRY. Dr. Clark. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was any bullet found by you or by any other doctor at +Parkland in the President's body? + +Dr. PERRY. I found none. To the best of my knowledge neither did anyone +else. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was the President ever turned over at any time? + +Dr. PERRY. Not by me nor did I see it done. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you present as long as any other doctor was present +in the emergency room? + +Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I think that at the time that I left trauma room +number one, I went outside, and washed my hands, and I opened the door +briefly to retrieve my coat which I had left there on the floor and the +nurse handed me my coat. + +At that time as I recall Doctor Jenkins was still in the room and there +were several other people there including Mrs. Kennedy and the priest, +and some gentlemen whom I did not know. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you make any effort to examine the clothing of +President Kennedy?. + +Dr. PERRY. I did not. + +(At this point, Representative Boggs entered the hearing room.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Why was it, Dr. Perry, that there was no effort made to +examine the clothing of President Kennedy and no effort to turn him +over and examine the back of the President? + +Dr. PERRY. At the termination of the procedure and after we had +determined that Mr. Kennedy had expired, I cannot speak for the others +but as for myself, my work was done. I fought a losing battle, and +I actually obviously, having seen a lot of wounds, had no morbid +curiosity, and actually was rather anxious to leave the room. I had +nothing further to offer. + +Mr. SPECTER. With the President having been declared dead, did you +consider it was your function to make any further exploration of the +President's body? + +Dr. PERRY. This is not my function or my prerogative. This would be +undertaken by suitable authorities at the time of postmortem, people +with experience superior to mine in determining things of this sort. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where was Mrs. Kennedy, if you know, during the course of +the treatment which you have described that you performed? + +Dr. PERRY. I had the initial impression she was in the room most of +the time although I have been corrected on this. When I entered the +room she was standing by the door, rather kneeling by the door, and +someone was standing there beside her. I saw her several times during +the course of the resuscitative measures, when I would look up from the +operative field to secure an instrument from the nearby tray. + +Mr. DULLES. Under your procedure who had the responsibility for +declaring that the President was dead? + +Dr. PERRY. This was a combination of factors, Mr. Dulles, undertaken by +those of us all in attendance, by Dr. Clark and Dr. Jenkins and myself +particularly since we were the senior people there. + +I was informed subsequently that Mrs. Kennedy left the room several +times to just outside the door but returned although as I say, I saw +her several times in the room. I did not speak to her nor she to me so +I do not have any knowledge as to exactly what she was doing. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wound in the President's chest? + +Dr. PERRY. I did not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wound on the left side of the +President's head? + +Dr. PERRY. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you heretofore during the course of your testimony +today described all of the wounds in the President which you have +observed? + +Dr. PERRY. I have. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you and the other doctors affected, in your opinion, +in your treatment of the President by virtue of the fact that he was +the President of the United States? + +Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; I am sure that is true. At the time that I was +going down the stairs to the emergency room I was, of course, quite +concerned, not knowing any of the circumstances surrounding the +incident nor in what condition I would find him, and at the time that I +entered the room, and it was my initial impression that he had a mortal +wound. + +At that point I directed myself to doing that which I could do and, of +course, the time then became quite compressed during the course of the +procedures and it was really not until afterwards that the full impact +of what had happened began to hit me. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to render any treatment to +Governor Connally at Parkland Hospital? + +Dr. PERRY. I saw the Governor in regard to the consultation in regard +to the injury to his leg. As I related earlier I am consultant in +vascular surgery to the hospital, and the estimated course of the +missile in his leg presupposed that he might have an injury to his +femoral artery or vein and Dr. Shires asked me if I would put on a +scrub suit and come to the operating room to assist in case it was +necessary to do some arterial surgery. + +It was not, however, so I did not operate. + +Mr. SPECTER. At what time approximately did you arrive at the operating +room where Governor Connally was being cared for? + +Dr. PERRY. I don't know, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was it during the course of the operation performed by Dr. +Shires? + +Dr. PERRY. Yes, At that time I was there during the time Dr. Shires was +there and Dr. Gregory was also operating on the arm at that point. Dr. +Shaw had completed his portion of the procedure. + +Mr. SPECTER. That would have been after the press conference had been +completed? + +Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render medical aid to Lee Harvey +Oswald on November 24? + +Dr. PERRY. I did. + +Mr. McCLOY. Before you get to that may I get clear, Dr. Shires and Dr. +Gregory were in attendance? + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw in addition. + +Dr. PERRY. Yes, and Shaw. + +Mr. McCLOY. Shaw, Shires and Gregory? + +Doctor PERRY. S-h-i-r-e-s. + +Representative BOGGS. Before you get to Oswald may I ask one question? +I am sure the doctor covered it. You said the minute you saw the +President you felt he had suffered a mortal wound? + +Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir. + +Representative BOGGS. You saw the wound immediately then? + +Dr. PERRY. Well, I saw his condition immediately, and as you are aware, +I have attended a lot of people with severe injuries. + +Representative BOGGS. Surely. + +Dr. PERRY. And he obviously was in extremis when I walked in the room. +And then I noted very cursorily the wound in the head and it was +obvious that this was an extremely serious wound. + +Representative BOGGS. Was he still alive when you saw him? + +Dr. PERRY. He was. + +Representative BOGGS. That is all. + +Representative FORD. May I ask, Mr. Specter, during the total time that +you were examining and treating the President, how much of his exposed +body did you see? + +Dr. PERRY. The upper trunk predominantly, Congressman Ford. His chest, +and, of course, his arms were bare, neck and head. I did not examine +any other portions of his body nor did I see any other portions except +briefly when I felt for the femoral pulse on the left side. + +Representative FORD. From the waist on up the front? + +Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe the treatment rendered to Mr. Oswald at +Parkland Memorial Hospital by yourself and by others as you observed it? + +Dr. PERRY. At the time I saw--starting with when I was called? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes. + +Dr. PERRY. Well, I went immediately to the emergency room again, Dr. +Jones and I who also was in the hospital again, and told me that I was +the only attending surgeon present, and that they were bringing Mr. +Oswald out, and I was in the surgery suite and I went directly to the +emergency room just as he was being brought indoors. + +Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time was that? + +Dr. PERRY. I really don't know, sir. It was about 11:15 or so when I +was up in surgery. I had been seeing a baby in regard to an operation +we had scheduled at 1 o'clock and then Dr. Jones came after me. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long did it take you approximately to travel from the +point where you received the notice that he was en route until your +arrival at the emergency room? + +Dr. PERRY. No more than 2 or 3 minutes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And you say you arrived there simultaneously with Mr. +Oswald? + +Dr. PERRY. Just as he came in. + +Mr. SPECTER. Precisely where in the hospital was it where you met Mr. +Oswald? + +Dr. PERRY. He was brought into the emergency room, trauma room number +two, and as they wheeled him in I came around the corner. + +Mr. SPECTER. What action did you take with respect to Mr. Oswald? + +Dr. PERRY. Well, there were numerous people in attendance, more so +than on the previous incident on Friday. He also obviously was quite +seriously injured. He was cyanotic, very blue and although he also was +attempting respirations, they were not effective, and an endotracheal +tube was placed in him by one of the anesthesiologists, I think Dr. +Jenkins, and I examined his chest and noted the entrance point of the +bullet wound on the left side and I could feel the bullet just under +the skin on the right side, right rear margin, indicating the bullet +had passed entirely through his body and come to rest under the skin. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where through his body? + +Dr. PERRY. I beg your pardon sir, the bullet entered approximately the +midaxillary line at about the 9th or 10th interspace on the left side +of the chest cage, and came to rest just under the rib margin on the +right side under the skin. + +Mr. SPECTER. Could you supply in lay language what cyanotic means? + +Dr. PERRY. Blue from lack of oxygen. + +Mr. SPECTER. Could you explain in lay language the midaxillary line? + +Dr. PERRY. It is about the mid portion of the fold extending down from +the armpit on the left. This is just rough because I glanced at that +briefly and determined the nature of the path of the bullet and from +looking at him it was obvious that this had traversed major structures +in his body in order to reach that particular place, so while a cutdown +was being done again to administer fluid, I asked someone to put in a +left chest tube on him because it appeared it went in and I recalled +surgery until they were bringing him directly up. + +Dr. Tom Shires, Chief of the Surgical Services, came into the door at +a point and Dr. McClelland, and we left and went to surgery to change +clothes and they brought him from there immediately to surgery and we +proceeded with the operation. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who was present, if anyone, with Mr. Oswald at the time +you arrived there? + +Dr. PERRY. In the emergency room? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes. + +Dr. PERRY. Dr. Jenkins was there, Dr. M. T. Jenkins, Chief of +Anesthesiology. + +I think Dr. Giesecke was also there again, although I am not sure of +that. I saw Dr. Risk who is a resident in urology and I saw Dr. Dulany +who is a resident in surgery. Dr. Boland, I believe who is a resident +in thoracic surgery and, of course, Dr. Jones and myself, and there +were several other people, the nurses, I don't recall. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe briefly the physical layout utilized in +taking Mr. Oswald from trauma room number two which you have already +described up to the operating room? + +Dr. PERRY. We have an express elevator that connects delivery room, +operating room, emergency room and it is approximately 20 yards from +trauma room two, I would estimate, just around the corner, in an even +corridor and although I was not there as they took him up, I was in +the operating room preparing and scrubbing, he was wheeled directly +there to the express elevator and taken to the second floor where the +operating suites are. + +Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long does it take to get a patient from +the trauma room up to the operating room? + +Dr. PERRY. It depends on a lot of factors. One is if the elevator is +there or not or if it happens to be in surgery or in the delivery room. +But I have on occasion where it was necessary that you must go with +all dispatch to the operating room, have done it in a matter of a few +minutes. + +They brought him right in the door, placed him on the elevator with a +finger controlling the hemorrhage where you could take him directly to +the operating room. I have done that in a matter, I am sure, of less +than 3 or 4 minutes if I had to. + +Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long did it take to get Oswald from +trauma room two to the operating room? + +Dr. PERRY. I don't know, I was told subsequently it was 12 minutes from +the time we had him up. And---- + +Representative BOGGS. How long was it from the time he was shot until +he reached the hospital? + +Dr. PERRY. I have no knowledge of that, sir. + +Representative BOGGS. Do you know? + +Mr. SPECTER. No; I don't know. + +Mr. DULLES. Was he conscious at any time so far as you know? + +Dr. PERRY. No, sir; he did not say a word. + +Mr. DULLES. He was not conscious? + +Dr. PERRY. No, sir; and even had he been, of course, once we had the +endotracheal tube in he could not have spoken. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who was in charge of the operation performed on Mr. Oswald? + +Dr. PERRY. Dr. Tom Shires. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who was in assistance with Dr. Shires? + +Dr. PERRY. I first assisted Dr. Shires and then Ronald Jones and Dr. +McClelland were also at the operation. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the operative procedures employed on Mr. +Oswald please? + +Dr. PERRY. Yes. From the nature of the trajectory of the wound and +the nature of the path of the bullet on the other side it was obvious +that it had traversed major vessels, the aorta and vena cava. The +aorta and vena cava, the heart area, and then a midline incision was +made. A rapid prep with iodine was done, the patient was draped. An +incision was carried rapidly into the abdominal cavity at which time +we noticed approximately 3 litres of free blood which is an excess of +three quarts. This was removed by suction, lap packs and by just moving +it out in the form of clots with the hands. It was noted there was +considerable bleeding appearing in both the right upper and left upper +quadrants of the body. There was a large hematoma retroperitoneally +in the midline also, causing the bowels to be pushed forward rather +strikingly. + +We immediately dissected over the portal vein on the right since it +was apparently injured, and placed a vascular occlusive clamp of the +Sittinsky type in this area to control the bleeding. Noted an injury +to the right kidney and to the lobe of the liver. We also noted there +was an injury to the stomach, the pancreas, the spleen. At that point +it became apparent that he had indeed struck major vessels, and +appeared to be the aorta, so the left colon was reflected very rapidly +in order to allow us to enter the space behind the intestines, the +retroperitoneal space, and at that point I controlled the bleeding from +the aorta by finger pressure below and above this area. + +The bullet had knocked the superior mesenteric artery completely off +the aorta exposing a large area. + +After I had controlled the bleeding Dr. Shires was able to dissect +around the area sufficient to allow us to gain control of the aorta, +superior mesenteric artery and the vena cava and the placement of +vascular clamps across these vessels in order to stop the hemmorhage. + +At this point, he was being given blood and, of course, the suitable +anesthesia measures which were oxygen under pressure. He did not +require an anesthetic agent, I am told. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who told you that, Dr. Perry? + +Dr. PERRY. I think one of the residents did, one of the anesthesia +residents. We at that point had restored his blood pressure. I don't +know the exact recordings, but I was told subsequently it had returned +to near normal levels since we had the bleeding controlled. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the situation with respect to his respiration at +that time? + +Dr. PERRY. It was being assisted and controlled, of course, by +anesthesiology. This was no problem. We had a tube in place and +was breathing for him so he had no problem with respiration. This +was completely under control of anesthesia. The blood pressure was +controlled and we stopped for a moment to determine how we would best +go about repairing the structures and which would have priority, all +the bleeding had stopped but, as I recall, the clamping of the aorta at +the level of the superior mesenteric artery means, of course, that you +must prevent blood from entering the kidneys, and this in itself can be +hazardous if extended, and therefore we decided this must be repaired +immediately in order to restore blood into the kidneys and the lower +portion of the body. + +Then Dr. Jenkins informed me and Dr. Shires that his cardiac action +was becoming weak, and I don't remember all the details surrounding +the medications and the things that were done at this particular time, +but he developed a backward cardiac failure, his heart slowed abruptly +and the blood pressure fell again and it was apparent the tremendous +blood loss he had had set the stage for irreversible shock and lack +of pumping action from the heart although he was being given massive +transfusions, I don't know the exact number, probably he had 10 or 12 +units. I believe it is in the record. + +At this point when they told me a cardiac arrest had occurred as a +result of the hemorrhage and blood loss I took a knife and opened the +left chest in the fourth interspace and reached in to massage his +heart, and the heart was flabby, and dilated, and apparently contained +very little blood. + +I began to massage the heart, to maintain it as we infused the blood +and was able to obtain a palpable pulse in the carotid vessels going to +the neck and into the head. We were unable to get the heart to go, and +it began to fibrillate which is an uncoordinated motion of the muscles +of the heart itself and the successive electrical shocks were applied +with the defibrillator and to stimulate heart action, and we failed in +this and the cardiac pacemaker was sewn in place, and it was handed to +me by the thoracic surgery resident, and I sewed it into the heart to +artificially induce heart action, this also was without benefit. + +We were never able to restore effective heart action and then Dr. +Jenkins informed as neurologically he was not responding, that his +reflexes were gone, and he felt that he had expired. + +Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did that occur? + +Dr. PERRY. I don't know, Mr. Specter, I would have to look at the +record. + +Mr. SPECTER. At approximately how long after he arrived at the hospital +did that occur? + +Dr. PERRY. I don't know that, either. + +Mr. SPECTER. Can you approximate the length of time of the operation +itself? + +Dr. PERRY. 45 minutes or so, I would say. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is there any question but that he was alive during the +course of your operative procedures? + +Dr. PERRY. Oh, no, no question. The fact is we were very close, I +think, to winning the battle. We have seen injuries of this magnitude, +they rarely survive, this is a very serious injury and to the best +of my knowledge I have not seen anyone with this particular set of +injuries survive. But at one point once we controlled the hemorrhage +and once I had control of the aorta and was able to stop the bleeding +of that area I actually felt we had a very good chance since everything +had proceeded with expediency. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed by any representative of the +Federal Government in connection with your treatment of President +Kennedy, Dr. Perry? + +Dr. PERRY. Yes, I have. + +Mr. SPECTER. By whom were you interviewed? + +Dr. PERRY. I regret that I do not recall their names. I was interviewed +by two gentlemen from the Secret Service approximately the following +week, as I recall, and again about a month ago. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what questions were asked of you on the first +interview by the Secret Service? + +Dr. PERRY. Essentially in regard to the treatment and once again +speculation as to where the bullets might have originated and what the +nature of the wounds were and I was unable to supply them with any +adequate information. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were the responses given by you to the Secret Service on +that first interview essentially the same as you have given today? + +Dr. PERRY. With minor variations in wording, they are essentially the +same. + +Mr. SPECTER. Approximately when did the second interview occur with the +Secret Service? + +Dr. PERRY. I think approximately a month ago, although I am not sure of +that. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the content of that interview? + +Dr. PERRY. A gentleman identified himself as being connected with the +Warren Commission and Secret Service. I asked for his credentials which +he duly supplied and he asked me in regard to any further information I +might have pertaining to the events of that weekend, and we reiterated +some of these statements which I made previously, and since I had +nothing more to add, why it was terminated. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you supply any information which was in any way +different from that which you have testified to here today? + +Dr. PERRY. In essence; no, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. On the second interview, did the man identify himself to +you as a Secret Service agent who was conducting a further inquiry at +the request of the President's Commission? + +Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; he said he was with the Warren Commission. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did I discuss the facts within your knowledge or take your +deposition in Dallas on Wednesday, March 25, 1964? + +Dr. PERRY. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And was the information which you provided at that time +in advance of the deposition and during the course of the deposition +itself the same as the information which you provided here today +concerning the treatment of President Kennedy, your observations and +opinions on President Kennedy? + +Dr. PERRY. It is. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have I made that transcript available to you this morning +before we started this testimony? + +Dr. PERRY. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you at any time changed any opinion which you held +concerning any matter relating to President Kennedy? + +Dr. PERRY. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you prepare a handwritten report on your care of +President Kennedy which became part of the record of Parkland Hospital? + +Dr. PERRY. I did. + +Mr. SPECTER. Which you identified during the course of the deposition +proceeding as being your report? + +Dr. PERRY. Yes, that is correct. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any other notes of your own relating to any of +the matters which you testified here today? + +Dr. PERRY. None. + +Mr. McCLOY. What was the condition of, general physical condition, +apart from the wounds, of Oswald, as you observed him? Was his body +healthy? + +Dr. PERRY. I made only a very cursory examination, Mr. McCloy. He +appeared rather thin to me. + +Mr. McCLOY. Not, you wouldn't call him a muscular type? + +Dr. PERRY. No, he would be what we would describe as a thinnish +individual, that is very thin; was wiry rather than bulky muscles. + +Mr. McCLOY. Were there any signs that you observed cursorily, symptoms +of any prior disease? + +Dr. PERRY. No, I did not look for those. + +Mr. DULLES. No distinguishing marks on the body that you saw, prior +operations? + +Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I did not look. There was no evidence of previous +surgical operation on his abdomen, and I didn't examine anything else. + +Of course, this also can be missed unless you are looking for it. We +went through the midline and unless one went looking for it we did not +have time and we would not see it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, was the chest tube inserted in the President's +chest abandoned or was that operation or operative procedure completed? + +Dr. PERRY. The chest tube, to be placed there, was supposedly placed +into the pleural cavity. However, I have knowledge that it was not. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what was the reason for its not being placed into the +pleural cavity? + +Dr. PERRY. I did not speak with certainty but at that point I think +that we were at the end of the procedure and they just did not continue +with it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Had it become apparent at that time that the President +expired? + +Dr. PERRY. That, I think, is probably true, but I did not state that +with certainty because I cannot state the exact sequence. I was +employed myself at the time, and I think if it had been determined that +this was not in, it would have been completed, if there was still time, +but I am not sure of that. That is speculation. + +Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the condition of the neck wounds, was it +ragged or pushed out in any manner? + +Dr. PERRY. No, it was not. As I originally described it, the edges were +neither cleancut, that is punched out, nor were they very ragged. I +realize that is not a very specific description but it is in between +those two areas. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there blood in that area which tended to obscure your +view? + +Dr. PERRY. It was exuding blood during that procedure and thus I did +not examine it very closely. In retrospect, I think it would have been +of much more value had I looked at these things more carefully but I +had directed my attention to other things. + +Mr. SPECTER. Those complete my questions. + +Representative FORD. Mr. McCloy? + +Mr. Dulles? + +Have you examined the autopsy report made by the officials in Bethesda? + +Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir, I have. + +Representative FORD. Does your testimony conform to the facts stated in +that report? + +Dr. PERRY. I think so. At the time the testimony which I have given +here of my knowledge without the--was given the same as it was without +the basis of that report. But now having had access to that report, +I think it ties in very nicely. I see no discrepancies at all. For +example, had I known that he had these other two wounds, it would have +been much easier at the time to state a little more categorically about +the trajectory of the missiles, but not knowing about those I could +only speculate. + +Representative FORD. There is no basic conflict between what you have +testified to or what you have said previously, and the autopsy report? + +Dr. PERRY. None at all. + +Representative BOGGS. Just one question. I presume this question has +been asked. + +This neck wound, was there any indication that that wound had come from +the front? + +Dr. PERRY. There is no way to tell, sir, for sure. As you may recall, +passage of a high velocity missile, the damage it does, is dependent on +two factors, actually, one being deformation of the missile, increase +in its relative caliber, and the other the expending of the energy of +that missile in the object it strikes. + +For example, the energy used to carry the missile beyond the object +that it struck is obviously not going to cause much of an injury. If +there is a missile of relatively high velocity, although I consider +this a medium velocity weapon, that the missile for entrance or exit +had the bullet not been deformed would not be substantially different, +had it not been deformed nor particularly slowed in its velocity. + +Representative BOGGS. By that, you mean it would be difficult to +determine the point of exit and the point of entrance under those +circumstances? + +Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; unless one were able to ascertain the trajectory. +If you could, for example, make check points between what the missile +might have struck, then you could ascertain trajectory. But with a +relatively high velocity missile, this also is difficult due to the +amount of blast injury which occurs in enclosed tissues, similar to +those I am sure you have seen to those discussed, so blast injury can +be an area remote from the exact passage of the missile itself. + +Representative BOGGS. Of course, your main concern was to try to save +the President's life and not---- + +Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; it actually never occurred to me until all the +questions began to come, and I was ill-prepared to meet them, but it +never occurred to me that, to investigate, because I was busy, and I +have done these types of things many times. + +It just never occurred to me to look into it until afterwards. + +Representative FORD. Any questions, Dean Storey? + +Mr. STOREY. No, thank you, sir. + +Representative FORD. Mr. Murray? + +Mr. MURRAY. No. + +Mr. DULLES. I have one more question I would like to ask. + +Did you know anything about the spent bullet that was found on, I don't +know what you call it--the litter? + +Dr. PERRY. On the carriage? + +Mr. DULLES. On the carriage. + +Dr. PERRY. My first knowledge of that was one of the newspaper +publications had said there was a bullet found there. I don't know now +whether it was or was not. I didn't find it. + +Mr. SPECTER. May I say, Mr. Dulles, on that subject, I took several +depositions on that subject in the Dallas Hospital and I think we have +a reasonably conclusive answer on that question; and, in fact, it came +from the stretcher of Governor Connally. + +Dr. PERRY. They were quoted as having removed a bullet from Governor +Connally's leg, the press quoted that, but a bullet was not removed +from Governor Connally's leg. + +Mr. SPECTER. There was no bullet removed from Governor Connally's +leg, but there was a wound there, but there was a very small fragment +embedded in the femur, as the deposition of Drs. Shaw, Shires, and +Gregory will show. But the bullet was found on a stretcher and the +question arose as to whose stretcher it was, and we have traced the two +stretchers in a way so as to exclude the possibility of its being the +stretcher on which President Kennedy was carried, and we have traced +the path of Governor Connally's stretcher and have narrowed it to two +stretchers. And the bullet came off of one of the two stretchers, +so that, through the circumstances of the facts, it is reasonably +conclusive that it came from the stretcher of Governor Connally. + +Representative FORD. How long did it take you to go from where you were +when the page came to get down to trauma room No. 1? + +Dr. PERRY. A matter of no more than a minute or so, Congressman Ford. +It is down one flight of stairs and the door is almost immediately +adjacent to the dining room where we would go and we did not wait on +the elevator. We went down the stairs. + +Representative FORD. How long after the President was brought in before +you went to trauma room No. 1? + +Dr. PERRY. That I don't know either. My last recollection in regard to +time was approximately 12:30 when I was having lunch prior to rounds, +and Dr. Jones picked up the page and as we went downstairs I took off +my watch and dropped it in my coat pocket, rather expecting to do some +kind of procedure, and I took off my coat and I never looked at the +clock until afterwards. + +Mr. McCLOY. One more question, I want to get clear. + +The extent to which you examined Governor Connally's wounds, as I +gather, you were asked to stand by. + +Dr. PERRY. That is right, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. Rather than to be involved in a close examination of the +wounds. + +Dr. PERRY. That is right, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. So you are not generally familiar? + +Dr. PERRY. No, sir; all I did was come into the operating room, put on +a scrub suit, cap and mask, and looked at the thigh wound before Dr. +Shires started the operation. That was the extent of the episode into +the wound, and I stayed there while he carried it down to the lower +portion of the wound and indicated there was no serious injury, and I +left the operating room at that point. + +Mr. McCLOY. And you didn't see the other two wounds? + +Dr. PERRY. I didn't see the other wounds at all, sir. + +Representative FORD. Thank you very much, Dr. Perry. + +Your testimony has been most helpful. + +(Whereupon, at 11:45 a.m., the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +_Tuesday, March 31, 1964_ + +TESTIMONY OF ROBERT A. FRAZIER AND RONALD SIMMONS + +The President's Commission met at 9 a.m. on March 31, 1964, at 200 +Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. + +Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Hale +Boggs and John J. McCloy, members. + +Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Melvin Aron +Eisenberg, assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; +Charles Murray and Lewis Powell, observers; and Leon Jaworski, special +counsel to the attorney general of Texas. + + +TESTIMONY OF ROBERT A. FRAZIER + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Frazier, the purpose of today's hearing is to take +the testimony of yourself and Mr. Ronald Simmons. + +You are, we understand, a firearms expert with the FBI, and Mr. Simmons +is a firearms expert with the Weapons System Division at Fort Meade, Md. + +You are asked to provide technical information to assist the Commission +in this work. + +Would you raise your right hand and be sworn, please? + +You solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this +Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I do. + +The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated, please. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, will you give your name and position? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Robert A. Frazier, Special Agent, Federal Bureau of +Investigation, assigned to the FBI Laboratory, Washington, D.C. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And your education? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I have a science degree which I received from the +University of Idaho. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you briefly state your training and experience in +the fields of firearms, firearms identification, and ballistics? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Beginning in 1937, I was on the University of Idaho Rifle +Team, and the following year, 1938. In 1939 I enlisted in the National +Guard and for 2 years was on the National Guard Rifle Team firing both +small bore, or .22 caliber weapons, and the large bore, .30 caliber +weapons, both being of the bolt-action type weapons. + +In 1939 and 1940 I instructed in firearms in the Army of the United +States, and acquired additional experience in firing of weapons, +training in firing at moving targets, additional training in firing +the .45 caliber automatic and machineguns. And to further my firearms, +practical firearms training, I received in 1942 a training course +offered by the Federal Bureau of Investigation after entering on duty +with that organization in--on June 9, 1941. That firearms training +course consisted of a basic training in handguns--that is, revolvers +and automatic pistols, training in autoloading rifles, training in +submachineguns, shotguns, and various other types of firearms. + +One year later, approximately 1943, I received a specialized +administrative firearms course which qualified me for training other +agents in the field of law-enforcement type firearms. + +Over the past 23 years, I have received the regular FBI firearms +training, which is a monthly retraining in firearms, and a periodic, +or every 4 years, detailed retraining in the basic FBI firearms--the +firearms training with the rifle, submachinegun, shotgun, revolver. + +In the FBI, training includes firing both at stationary targets and +moving targets with both revolver and rifle and shotgun, and includes +firing at slow-fire targets--that is aimed fire for accuracy and rapid +fire to increase speed of firing. + +Generally in the field of firearms identification, where I have +been assigned for 23 years, I received specialized training given +in the FBI Laboratory to train me for the position of firearms +identification specialist. In that field, we make examinations of +bullets and cartridge cases, firearms of various types, for the purpose +of identifying weapons as to their caliber, what they are, their +manufacturer, their physical characteristics, and determining the type +of ammunition which they shoot. + +We examine ammunition of various types to identify it as to its +caliber, its specific designation, and the type or types of weapons in +which it can be fired, and we make comparisons of bullets to determine +whether or not they were fired from a particular weapon and make +comparisons of cartridge cases for the purpose of determining whether +or not they were fired in a particular weapon, or for determining +whether or not they had been loaded into or extracted from a particular +weapon. + +That training course lasted for approximately 1 year. However, of +course, the experience in firearms is actually part of the training and +continues for the entire time in which you are engaged in examining +firearms. + +Briefly, that is the summary of the firearms training I have had. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you estimate the number of examinations you have +made of firearms to identify the firearms? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Thousands, I would say--firearms comparisons--I have made +in the neighborhood of 50,000 to 60,000. + +Mr. McCLOY. Have you written any articles on this subject? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. I have prepared an article for the "FBI Law +Enforcement Bulletin" on firearms identification, which is published as +a reprint and provided to any organization or person interested in the +general field of firearms identification. + +Mr. McCLOY. Have you read most of the literature on the subject? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I have. + +Mr. McCLOY. Is there any classical book on this subject? + +Mr. FRAZIER. There are a number of fairly good texts. + +The basic one, originally published in 1936, is by Maj. Julian +S. Hatcher, who later, as a general, rewrote his book "Firearms +Investigation, Identification, and Evidence." + +There are many other books published on the subject. + +Mr. EISENBERG. May I ask that this person be accepted as a qualified +witness on firearms? + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes, indeed. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, I now hand you a rifle marked Commission +Exhibit 139. + +Are you familiar with this weapon? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I am. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And do you recognize it by serial number or by your mark? + +Mr. FRAZIER. By serial number on the barrel, and by my initials which +appear on various parts of the weapon. + +Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, this is the rifle which was found on the +sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22. + +Can you describe this rifle by name and caliber? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It is a caliber 6.5 Italian military rifle, commonly +referred to in the United States as a 6.5 mm. Mannlicher-Carcano. + +It is a bolt-action clip-fed military rifle. + +Do you wish a general physical description of the weapon at this time? + +Mr. EISENBERG. Well, no; not at this time. + +Can you explain the American equivalent to the 6.5 mm. caliber? + +Mr. FRAZIER. That is the same as .25 caliber. Such weapons in the +United States as the .25-20 Winchester, .25-35, the .250 Savage, and +the .257 Roberts, are all of the same barrel diameter, or approximately +the same barrel diameter. So a decimal figure of .257 inch is the +equivalent of 6.5 mm. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And can you explain what the caliber is a measure of? + +Mr. FRAZIER. The caliber is the measure of the distance across the +raised portions or the lands in the barrel. The groove diameter, or +the spirals cut in the barrel to form the rifling, will be slightly +larger--in this case between 7/1000ths and 8/1000ths of an inch larger +than the actual bore diameter. + +The caliber is normally determined by the bore diameter. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain how you made the identification of this +rifle? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I identified it pictorially by comparing it with +pictures in reference books. And the actual identification was of the +manufacturer's name appearing on the barrel and serial number, which +indicated it was an Italian military rifle. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you independently determine the caliber of the rifle? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I did. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you tell us how you did that? + +Mr. FRAZIER. The caliber and the caliber type may be confusing here. + +The caliber, being the diameter of the barrel, is determined in two +ways--one, by comparing the barrel with 6.5mm. Mannlicher-Carcano +ammunition, which we also chambered in the weapon and determined that +it actually fit the weapon. And, secondly, we measured the width of +the barrel with, a micrometer. And in that connection, I would like to +point out that we made a sulphur cast of the muzzle of the weapon which +permitted us to use a micrometer to determine the land width and the +groove width in the barrel. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have that sulphur cast? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I do. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And that was made by you or under your supervision? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it was made by me. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I ask that this be admitted as Commission +Exhibit No. 540. + +The CHAIRMAN. It will be admitted. + +(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 540, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is there any reason that you can think of why this +Exhibit 139 might be thought to be a 7.35-or 7.65-caliber rifle? + +Mr. FRAZIER. From outward appearances, it could be a 7.35-mm. rifle, +because, basically, that is what it is. But its mechanism has been +rebarreled with a 6.5-mm. barrel. Photographs of the weapons are +similar, unless you make a very particular study of the photographs of +the original model 38 Italian military rifle, which is 7.35 mm. + +Early in the Second World War, however, the Italian Government barreled +many of these rifles with a 6.5-mm. barrel, since they had a quantity +of that ammunition on hand. I presume that would be the most logical +way of confusing this weapon with one of a larger caliber. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And is the 6.5-caliber weapon distinguished from the +7.35-caliber weapon by name? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it is; it is by the model number. The model 91/38 +designates the 6.5-mm. rifle, whereas the model 38 designates the 7.35. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Have you taken photographs of the various markings on +the rifle? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I did. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have those with you? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Actually, I think we forwarded those photographs to the +Commission. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Are these the photographs that you took, or had taken? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Has the Federal Bureau of Investigation been supplied +with information concerning the meanings and significances of these +various markings? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; we have. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you state the source of that information? + +Mr. FRAZIER. This information came to us by mail as a result of an +inquiry of the Italian Armed Forces Intelligence Service, abbreviated +SIFAR, by letter dated March 26, 1964, through the FBI representative +in Rome, Italy. + +This information is classified as secret by the Italian Government, +who have advised that the material may be released to the Commission. +However, they desire the retention of the information in a secret +category. + +The CHAIRMAN. Is this essential to the proof? + +If it is not, I think we would rather not have it, because the fewer +things we have to keep in secret, the better the situation is for us. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Back on the record. + +Based on your experience with firearms, is the placement of a specific +serial number on a weapon generally confined to one weapon of a given +type? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it is. Particularly--may I refer to foreign weapons +particularly? + +The serial number consists of a series of numbers which normally will +be repeated. However, a prefix is placed before the number, which +actually must be part of the serial number, consisting of a letter. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Have you been able to confirm that the serial number on +this weapon is the only such number on such a weapon? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it is. + +Mr. EISENBERG. All right. + +Now, without reference to any classified information, could you briefly +describe the markings shown on these photographs? + +Mr. FRAZIER. The first photograph is an overall photograph of the rifle. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Excuse me. + +These photographs--when you say "first photograph"--these photographs +are marked No. 1, No. 2, et cetera, on the back. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, they are. + +Photograph No. 1 is an overall photograph of the rifle. + +Photograph No. 2 is made of the top of the barrel, showing the serial +number C2766. + +Photograph No. 3 is also of the top of the rifle, showing a portion of +the inscription on the telescopic sight, and the figures 1940, which +is the manufacturer's date, the words "Made Italy" and a figure in the +form of a crown, under that the letters "R-E," and then a portion of +the word "Terni." + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain the significance of "Terni?" + +Mr. FRAZIER. Terni is the location for an Italian ordnance plant in +Italy where rifles are made, and it is apparent that this weapon was +made in Terni, because it is stamped with that name. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And the significance of that crown? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I think that would be just an Italian identification mark +or proof mark. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And are the words "Made Italy" likely to have been put +on the weapon at the time of manufacture or subsequently? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; the words "Made Italy" would be stamped on the +weapon by a purchaser or an individual desiring to send the weapon to +another country, to establish actually its origin. + +Photograph No. 4 is again of the top of the weapon showing the same +information--1940, "Made Italy," the crown, the place it was made, and +the inscription "Caliber 6.5" across the top of the rear sight. + +Photograph No. 5 shows a small circle which appears on the forward end +of the receiver, or that portion into which the barrel is screwed, with +the words "TNI" in the circle, and over these letters is again a small +crown. This could be a proof mark or an inspector's stamp. + +Photograph No. 6 is of an inscription on the side of the rear sight +which has the appearance of the letter "i," or the letter "l," +followed by a capital letter "A," and the capital letter "G," with the +numbers "47," and "2," stamped underneath them. I do not know what the +significance of that is. It could be, again, an inspector's stamp or a +proof mark of some type. + +Photograph No. 7 is made of the cocking piece on the end of the bolt, +which gives the word "Rocca." This apparently would be the name of the +manufacturer of that part of the rifle. + +Photograph No. 8 is an inscription "PG" on the top of the bolt of the +weapon. This inscription--I do not know of my own knowledge what that +is--but it could be the mark of a manufacturer or a proof mark or an +inspector's mark made at the time the handle was made to be welded to +the bolt. + +Photograph No. 9 was taken of the bottom of the receiver of the weapon, +with the stock removed. It shows the Number "40," which could refer +again to the year of manufacture, 1940, on the receiver, and at the +rear of the photograph a small lettered inscription referring again +to an inspector stamp, a proof stamp, of some nature. The identity of +this, I do not know. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I ask that these photographs be admitted +as a group under the number 541. + +The CHAIRMAN. You are going to put all of them in under one number? + +Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. They have the subnumbers on the back, which will +differentiate them. + +The CHAIRMAN. They will be admitted. + +(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 541, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain why someone might call Exhibit 139 a +German-made Mauser rifle or a Mauser bolt-action rifle? + +Mr. FRAZIER. The Mauser was one of the earliest, if not the earliest, +and the basic bolt-action rifle, from which many others were copied. +And since this uses the same type of bolt system, it may have been +referred to as a Mauser for that reason. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Does this weapon show--how much use does this weapon +show? + +Mr. FRAZIER. The stock is worn, scratched. The bolt is relatively +smooth, as if it had been operated several times. I cannot actually say +how much use the weapon has had. The barrel is--was not, when we first +got it, in excellent condition. It was, I would say, in fair condition. +In other words, it showed the effects of wear and corrosion. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is this weapon---- + +The CHAIRMAN. I didn't get that last. + +Mr. FRAZIER. It showed the effects of wear and corrosion. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is this weapon used when it is sold into the United +States? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it is a surplus type of weapon. + +Mr. EISENBERG. So that it is impossible to attribute any given amount +of wear to the last user? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it is impossible. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Have you measured the dimensions of this rifle +assembled, and disassembled? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I have. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you give us that information? + +Mr. FRAZIER. The overall length is 40.2 inches. It weighs 8 pounds even. + +Mr. McCLOY. With the scope? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, with the scope. + +The CHAIRMAN. And the sling? + +Mr. FRAZIER. That is with the sling, yes, sir. The sling weighs 4-3/4 +ounces. The stock length is 34.8 inches, which is the wooden portion +from end to end with the butt plate attached. The barrel and action +from the muzzle to the rear of the tang, which is this portion at the +rearmost portion of the metal, is 28.9 inches. The barrel only is 21.18 +inches. + +Mr. EISENBERG. When you say, "this portion," Mr. Frazier, I don't think +that is coming down clear in the record. I wonder whether you could +rephrase that so as to describe the part of the barrel or part of the +stock to which you are pointing when you say "tang." + +Mr. FRAZIER. The tang is the rear of the receiver of the weapon into +which the rear mounting screw is screwed to hold the rearmost part of +the metal action of the weapon into the wooden stock. From the end of +that portion to the muzzle of the weapon is 28.9 inches. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And the length of the longest component when the rifle +is dissembled, Mr. Frazier? + +Mr. FRAZIER. 34.8 inches, which is the length of the stock, the wooden +portion. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe to us the telescopic sight on the rifle +in terms of---- + +Mr. McCLOY. Before you get to the sight, can I ask a question? + +Mr. EISENBERG. Surely. + +Mr. McCLOY. How soon after the assassination did you examine this rifle? + +Mr. FRAZIER. We received the rifle the following morning. + +Mr. McCLOY. Received it in Washington? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. And you immediately made your examination of it then? + +Mr. FRAZIER. We made an examination of it at that time, and kept it +temporarily in the laboratory. + +It was then returned to the Dallas Police Department, returned again to +the laboratory--the second time on November 27th, and has been either +in the laboratory's possession or the Commission's possession since +then. + +Mr. McCLOY. When you examined the rifle the first time, you said that +it showed signs of some corrosion and wear? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. Was it what you would call pitted, were the lands in good +shape? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; the lands and the grooves were worn, the corners +were worn, and the interior of the surface was roughened from corrosion +or wear. + +Mr. McCLOY. Was there metal fouling in the barrel? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I did not examine it for that. + +Mr. McCLOY. Could you say roughly how many rounds you think had been +fired since it left the factory, with the condition of the barrel as +you found it? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I could not, because the number of rounds is not +an indication of the condition of the barrel, since if a barrel is +allowed to rust, one round will remove that rust and wear the barrel +to the same extent as 10 or 15 or 50 rounds just fired through a clean +barrel. + +Mr. McCLOY. Thank you. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you describe the telescopic sight on the rifle? +Magnification, country of origin? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It is a four-power telescopic sight employing crosshairs +in it as a sighting device, in the interior of the scope. + +It is stamped "Optics Ordnance Incorporated, Hollywood California," +and under that is the inscription "Made in Japan." It is a very +inexpensive Japanese telescopic sight. + +The mount attached to it was also made in Japan. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Have you removed the mount? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I have. + +Mr. EISENBERG. How many holes did you find drilled into the receiver? + +Mr. FRAZIER. There are two holes in the receiver. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you form an opinion as to whether these were +original holes or whether new holes--new and larger holes had been +formed over the original holes? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Normally, the receiver would have no holes at all, and +would have to be drilled and tapped for the screws. In the sight itself +there normally are three holes, two of which have been enlarged to +accommodate the two mounting screws presently holding the mount to the +rifle. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Do you think, based on your experience with types of +screws used in mounts, that these were the original screws and the +original holes for the screws? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I could not say--I could not answer that specifically. +However, they appear to be the same type of screw as is present on the +rest of the mount--although they are somewhat larger in size than the +remaining hole which is present in the lower portion of the mount. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, I now hand you a rifle which is marked C-250. Are +you familiar with this rifle? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe it briefly? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It is an identical rifle physically to the rifle +Commission's Exhibit 139, in that it is the same caliber, 6.5-mm. +Mannlicher-Carcano Italian Military rifle, Model 91/38. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you attempt to determine by use of this rifle +whether the scope was mounted on Exhibit 139 by the firm which is +thought to have sold Exhibit 139? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Would you repeat that, please? + +Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. + +Did you make an attempt to determine, by use of this C-250, whether the +firm which had sold Exhibit 139 had mounted the scope on Exhibit 139? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe how you made that attempt? + +Mr. FRAZIER. We contacted the firm, Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago, +and asked them concerning this matter to provide us with a similar +rifle mounted in the way in which they normally mount scopes of this +type on these rifles, and forward the rifle to us for examination. + +In this connection, we did inform them that the scope should be in +approximately this position on the frame of the weapon. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Pardon me, Mr. Frazier. When you say "this position," so +that the record is clear could you---- + +Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes; in the position in which it now is, approximately +three-eighths of an inch to the rear of the receiver ring. + +Mr. EISENBERG. On the---- + +Mr. FRAZIER. On the C-250 rifle. + +When we received the rifle C-250, we examined the mount and found that +two of the holes had been enlarged, and that screws had been placed +through them and threaded into the receiver of the C-250 rifle. + +The third hole in the mount had not been used. + +We also found that an identical scope to the one on the Commission's +rifle 139 was present on the C-250 rifle. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Were the screws used in mounting the C-250 rifle--in +mounting the scope on the C-250 rifle--type of screws as those used in +mounting the scope on Exhibit 139? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And the holes were the same dimensions? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, they are. And the threads in the holes are the same. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like C-250 admitted into evidence +as Commission Exhibit 542. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 542, and +received in evidence.) + +The CHAIRMAN. At this time I will interrupt to say I must now leave +to attend a session of the Supreme Court, and I will return at the +conclusion of the session. + +In the meantime, Mr. McCloy will preside at the Commission hearing, +and in the event he should be required to leave, Mr. McCloy, whatever +Commissioner is here will conduct the examination in his absence. + +(At this point, Chairman Warren withdrew from the hearing room.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Have you examined the sling on Commission Exhibit 139? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I did. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Do you feel that this is--that this sling was originally +manufactured as a rifle sling? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it is not in any way similar to a normal sling +for a rifle. It appears to be a sling from some carrying case, camera +bag, musical-instrument strap, or something of that nature. + +We have made attempts to identify it, with no success. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Apart from the addition of this sling and mounting of +the telescopic sight, have any modifications been made in the C-139 +rifle--in the Commission Exhibit 139 rifle? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. You would suggest, I gather, Mr. Frazier, that this is a +homemade sling? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it appears to have been cut to length by +inserting this strap, or this sling, on the rifle, and then trimming +off the excess ends of the two straps to fit. + +Mr. McCLOY. How would that broad patch on the sling--how would that be +used, in your judgment, in firing the rifle? Would it be wrapped around +the base of your---- + +Mr. FRAZIER. I find it very difficult to use the rifle with a sling at +all. The sling is too short, actually, to do more than put your arm +through it. + +Mr. McCLOY. You get quite a leverage with that? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir, you do, in one direction. But it is rather +awkward to wrap the forward hand into the sling in the normal fashion. + +Mr. McCLOY. This gives a pretty tight---- + +Mr. FRAZIER. It can be used. But I don't feel that actually the +position of this broad piece is of too much significance as far as use +of the sling goes. + +Mr. McCLOY. But certainly the sling would tend to steady the aim, even +in this crude form? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes. + +Mr. McCLOY. It would make more easy an offhand shot than if you didn't +have a sling? It would make it more accurate? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It would assist more in offhand than any other type of +shooting, yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Returning to the scope for a moment, on the basis of the +experiment, so to speak, which you had Klein's conduct, would you form +an opinion as to whether the telescopic sight was mounted on Exhibit +139--was likely to have been mounted--by Klein's, or likely to have +been mounted subsequently? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I could not deduce from that--from the way the scope +is mounted--who mounted it. I can only say that the two are mounted in +identical fashion. And it is possible that the same person or persons +mounted the two scopes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you briefly explain the operation of this rifle, +the bolt action and the clip-feed mechanism? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; the weapon is loaded by turning up the bolt +handle, drawing the bolt to the rear, and inserting the clip from the +top of the weapon, after the clip has been loaded with the number of +rounds you desire to load. + +The maximum number of rounds the clip holds is six. However, the weapon +can be loaded with a clip holding 5, 4, 3, 2, or 1 round. + +This is done by inserting the clip in the rear portion of the ejection +port, and pushing it downwards until it clears the bottom of the bolt. +The weapon then is loaded by moving the bolt forward. It picks up one +cartridge out of the clip, carries it into the chamber of the weapon, +and the bolt is then locked by turning down. + +To fire the weapon, it is merely necessary to pull the trigger, since +the closing of the bolt has cocked the cocking piece on the weapon. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you proceed to show the extraction and ejection +mechanism? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. The extraction is merely by raising the bolt +and drawing it to the rear. When the cartridge is first loaded, the +rim on the base of the cartridge is caught under the extractor in the +face of the bolt, so that drawing the bolt to the rear draws the fired +cartridge or a loaded cartridge if it has not been fired, out of the +chamber to the rear, where the opposite side of the cartridge strikes a +projection in the ejection port called the ejector. The ejector strikes +on the opposite side of the case from the extractor, causing the shell +to be thrown out of the weapon on the right-hand side. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, to fire the next shot, is any further action +necessary, apart from closing the bolt and pulling the trigger, if +remaining cartridges are in the clip? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you pull out the clip and explain any markings you +find on it? + +Mr. FRAZIER. The only markings are the manufacturer's markings, "SMI," +on the base of the clip, and a number, 952. The significance of that +number I am not aware of. It could be a part number or a manufacturer's +code number. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is there any reason that you can think of why someone +might call that a five-shot clip? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir, unless they were unfamiliar with it. There is an +area of confusion in that a different type of rifle shooting larger +ammunition, such as a .30-06 or a German Mauser rifle, uses five-shot +clips, and the five-shot clip is the common style or size of clip, +whereas this one actually holds six. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Have you had occasion to purchase ammunition for this +rifle? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Does the ammunition come in the clip? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Normally it does not. The ammunition that we have +purchased for this rifle comes in 20-shot boxes. It is possible--and I +say this as a result of reading advertisements--to buy ammunition for +this rifle, and to receive a clip or clips at the same time, but not +necessarily part of the same shipment. + +Mr. EISENBERG. When you ordered C-250, which is now Commission Exhibit +542, did you receive a clip with that rifle? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Would you deduce, therefore, that the clip--that someone +wishing to shoot that rifle and use a clip in the rifle would have +purchased the clip later? + +Mr. FRAZIER. They would have to acquire it from some source, yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is it commonly available? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. Can you use that rifle without the clip? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; you can. + +Mr. McCLOY. What is the advantage of the clip? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It permits repeated firing of the weapon without manually +loading one shot at a time. + +Mr. McCLOY. The only other way you can fire it is by way of manual load? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; one shot at a time. + +Mr. McCLOY. When you say a six-cartridge clip, could that gun have been +fired with the clip fully loaded and another one in the chamber? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. The same as the .30-06? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; the weapon will hold a maximum of seven. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I now hand you a cartridge in an envelope, marked +Commission Exhibit 141. Are you familiar with this cartridge? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I am. I received this cartridge for examination in +the FBI laboratory, submitted to me as a cartridge removed from the +rifle at the time it was recovered. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe that cartridge in terms of name, +manufacturer, and country of origin? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It is a 6.5 mm. Mannlicher-Carcano cartridge, manufactured +by the Western Cartridge Co., at East Alton, Ill. + +It is loaded with a full metal-jacketed bullet of the military type. +Cartridges of this type which I have examined, having this type of +bullet, have bullets weighing 160 to 161 grains. + +Mr. McCLOY. When you mentioned that cartridge as being a +Mannlicher-Carcano cartridge, could that be fired, for example, in a +Mannlicher 6.5 Schoenauer? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I am not familiar with that. + +Mr. McCLOY. That is the normal sporting rifle--that Mannlicher +Schoenauer is the normal 6.5 Austrian sporting rifle that you buy. I +just wondered if it was the same cartridge. + +Mr. FRAZIER. I am sorry. I don't know whether there is a distinction +between these two or not. + +Mr. McCLOY. I happen to have one of those. And I was just wondering if +it is the same cartridge. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, I now hand you a series of three cartridge +cases. I ask you whether you are familiar with these cartridge cases. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I am. I received these cartridge cases on two +different occasions for examination in the laboratory, and comparison +with the rifle. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Do these cases have your mark on them? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; they do. Each is marked with my initials and the +inscription for identification purposes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like to introduce these cartridge +cases into evidence as Commission Exhibits 543, 544 and 545. + +Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted. + +(The articles referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 543, +544, and 545 and received in evidence.) + +Mr. McCLOY. Will you introduce evidence to show where they came from? + +Mr. EISENBERG. Well, sir, the record will show at the conclusion of the +hearings where they came from. This witness is able to identify them +only as to his examination. + +Mr. McCLOY. I understand that. I understand that witness cannot +identify them. But I simply asked for the record whether you have +evidence to show where they did come from. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; for the record, these cartridges were found on the +sixth floor of the School Book Depository Building. They were found +near the southeast corner window--that is, the easternmost window on +the southern face of the sixth floor of that building. + +Mr. Frazier, are these cartridge cases which have just been admitted +into evidence the same type of cartridge--from the same type of +cartridge--as you just examined, Commission Exhibit No. 141? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; they are. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That is, 6.5 mm. Mannlicher-Carcano, manufactured by the +Western Cartridge Co.? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. You gave the weight of the bullet which is found in this +type of cartridge. Could you give us a description of the contour of +the bullet, and its length? + +Mr. FRAZIER. The bullet has parallel sides, with a round nose, is fully +jacketed with a copper-alloy coating or metal jacket on the outside of +a lead core. Its diameter is 6.65 millimeters. The length--possibly +it would be better to put it in inches rather than millimeters. The +diameter is .267 inches, and a length of 1.185, or approximately 1.2 +inches. + +Mr. McCLOY. You say that the diameter is 6.65. Did you mean 6.65 or 6.5 +millimeters? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I was looking for that figure on that. It is about +6.6--6.65 millimeters. + +The bullet, of course, will be a larger diameter than the bore of the +weapon to accommodate the depths of the grooves in the barrel. + +On the base of the bullet is a crimp ring, or a cannelure, which is +located two-tenths of an inch from the base up the bullet and which is +6/100ths of an inch in width--that is, it is a band around the bullet +6/100ths of an inch wide. + +I believe that is a description of the bullet. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Have you tested Commission Exhibit 139 with the type of +ammunition you have been looking at to determine the muzzle velocity of +that type of ammunition in this weapon? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. The tests were run to determine the muzzle +velocity of this rifle, using this ammunition, at the Naval Research +Laboratory in Washington, D.C., on December 2, 1963, using two +different lots of ammunition--Lot No. 6,000 and Lot No. 6,003. + +I might point out that there were four lots of ammunition manufactured +by the Western Cartridge Co., only two of which are available. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you give the results? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Possibly I can give the results shot by shot, so the +record will show each one, and then give an average for them. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Fine. + +Mr. FRAZIER. The first shot, Lot 6,000, the velocity was 2199.7 feet +per second. + +Shot No. 2, Lot 6,000, velocity 2,180.3 feet per second. + +The third shot, velocity--same lot--velocity 2,178.9 feet per second. + +The third shot, velocity--and this is Lot No. 6,003--velocity was +2,184.8 feet per second. + +The fourth shot, Lot No. 6,003, was 2,137.6 feet per second. + +Fifth shot, Lot No. 6,000, 2,162.7 feet per second. + +The sixth shot, Lot 6,003, 2,134.8 feet per second. + +An average of all shots of 2,165 feet per second. + +Mr. EISENBERG. How would you characterize the differences between +the muzzle velocities of the various rounds in terms of whether that +difference was a large or small difference? + +Mr. FRAZIER. This is a difference well within the manufacturer's +accepted standards of velocity variations. They permit in their +standard ammunition manual, which is a guide to the entire industry in +the United States, a 40-foot-per-second, plus or minus, variation shot +to shot in the same ammunition. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Have you calculated the muzzle energy of this 6.5 +millimeter ammunition in this weapon? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It was furnished by letter to the Commission. Yes, +sir--the muzzle energy was calculated on the basis of the average +velocity of 2,165 feet per second as 1,676 foot-pounds. + +Mr. EISENBERG. This is a calculation rather than a measurement? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Necessarily a calculation, because it is merely a term +used to compare one bullet against another rather than for any +practical purposes because--because of the bullet's extremely light +weight. + +The bullet's velocity and weight, and gravity enter into the +determination of its energy in foot-pounds. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is the 6.5 millimeter Mannlicher-Carcano with which we +are dealing an accurate type of ammunition as opposed to other types +of military ammunition--as compared, I should say, with other types of +military ammunition? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I would say it is also accurate. As other types of +ammunition the 6.5 millimeter cartridge or bullet is a very accurate +bullet, and ammunition of this type as manufactured in the United +States would give fairly reasonable accuracy. Other military cartridges +may or may not give accurate results. + +But the cartridge inherently is an accurate cartridge. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is this type of cartridge readily available for purchase? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it is. Information we have indicates that 2 million +rounds of this ammunition was reimported into this country and placed +on sale. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Commission Exhibit No. 141, the cartridge found in +the chamber--I should say, was found in the chamber. Do you draw any +inference from the fact that the cartridge was found in the chamber? +In your experience, does one automatically reload whether or not one +intends to fire, or is there a special significance in the fact that +the cartridge had been chambered? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I would say no, there would be no inference which I could +draw based on human behavior as to why someone would or would not +reload a cartridge. Normally, if you were--in my experience--shooting +at some object, and it was no longer necessary to shoot, you would not +reload. + +You may or may not reload. It would be a normal thing to automatically +reload. But not necessarily in every instance. + +Mr. McCLOY. Do you have any information of your own knowledge as to +whether this cartridge was in the chamber or not at the time the rifle +was found? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Only as furnished to me--it was submitted as having been +removed from the rifle by the Dallas Police Department. + +Mr. McCLOY. As having been removed from the chamber? + +Mr. FRAZIER. From the chamber of the rifle. + +Mr. McCLOY. But you did not remove it yourself? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you make a test to determine the pattern of the +cartridge-case ejection of Commission Exhibit 139? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I made two studies in connection with the +ejection pattern--one to determine distance and one to determine the +angle at which the cartridge cases leave the ejection port. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And did you summarize your examination by diagrams? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I did. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you show us those diagrams? + +Mr. FRAZIER. In this diagram---- + +Mr. EISENBERG. Excuse me just a second, Mr. Frazier. + +Were these diagrams prepared by you? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; they were--not the actual physical diagrams, but the +figures on the diagrams were furnished by me to the draftsman. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I introduce these diagrams as +Commission Exhibits Nos. 546 and 547? + +Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted. + +(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 546 and +547, and were received in evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you give us the results of your tests by using +these diagrams, Mr. Frazier? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +In this test, Commission Exhibit 546, the diagram illustrates the +positions on the floor at which cartridge cases landed after being +extracted and ejected from the rifle, Commission's Exhibit 139. In +the top portion of Exhibit 546, the barrel was held depressed at a +45-degree angle, and in the lower half of the exhibit it shows the +pattern with the barrel held in a horizontal position. Each spot marked +with a figure on the diagram shows where one cartridge case landed in +both instances, and each one is marked with the distance and the angle +to which the cartridge case was ejected. + +With the barrel held in the depressed condition, all of the cartridge +cases landed within an 85-inch circle located 80 degrees to the right +front of the rifle. That may be confusing. It was 80 degrees to the +right from the line of sight of the rifle and at a distance of 86 +inches from the ejection port. + +Now, this circle will not necessarily encompass all cartridge cases +ejected from the rifle, since the ejection is determined, not only by +the angle of the weapon, but more by the force with which the bolt +is operated. A very light force on the bolt can cause the cartridge +case to tip gently out and fall at your feet. However, under normal +conditions of reloading in a fairly rapid manner, we found the +cartridge cases to land in this circle. + +The same situation is true of the test made with the muzzle in the +horizontal condition. + +All of the cartridge cases landed within a 47-inch circle, which was +located at right angles to the ejection port, or 90 degrees from the +line of sight, and at a distance 80 inches from the ejection port. + +In both of these tests, the ejection port of the weapon was held 32 +inches above the floor. + +In the second test performed, Commission Exhibit 547, the test was made +to ascertain how high above the ejection port a cartridge case would +fly as it was being ejected. + +After ejecting numerous cartridge cases from the weapon with the barrel +held in a depressed condition, it was found that the cartridge cases +did not exceed two inches above the level of the ejection port. And +with the muzzle held horizontally, it did not exceed 12 inches above +the level of the ejection port. + +Mr. EISENBERG. In making these tests, was the bolt pulled with a normal +degree of rifle pull? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It was pulled with various pulls, to determine what the +effect would be with different speeds of the bolt. + +Mr. EISENBERG. How did you select the distance above the floor at which +the rifle was fired? + +Mr. FRAZIER. We selected a distance which we thought might be typical +of a condition which would give an overall picture of the ejection +pattern, and not from any basis of previous information as to possibly +how the weapon had been fired previously. Thirty-two inches happened to +be approximately table height, so that we could control the height of +the weapon readily. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I now hand you three Commission Exhibits, 510, 511, and +512, which are photographs which have been identified as giving the +location of the cartridges--cartridge cases--Nos. 543, 544, and 545, +on the sixth floor of the School Book Depository Building. I ask you +to examine these pictures, and to determine whether if the rifle had +been fired from the window shown in these pictures, the location of the +cartridge cases is consistent with the results of the tests you ran to +determine the ejection patterns. + +Mr. FRAZIER. I would say yes; it is consistent--although the cartridge +cases are--two of them--against the wall. There is a stack of boxes +fairly near the wall, and the position of the cartridge cases could +very well have been affected by the boxes. That is, they could strike +the box and bounce for several feet, and they could have bounced back +and forth in this small area here and come to rest in the areas shown +in the photographs. + +Mr. EISENBERG. In making your tests, did you notice much ricochet? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; considerable. Each time a cartridge case hit the +floor, it would bounce anywhere from 8 inches to 10 to 15 feet. + +Mr. McCLOY. Make a lot of noise? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; a clatter. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Have you tested Commission Exhibit 139 to determine its +accuracy under rapid-fire conditions? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I have. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe these tests? + +Mr. FRAZIER. A series of three tests were made. When we first received +the rifle, there was not an opportunity to test it at long range, so +we tested it at short range. After we had obtained sample bullets and +cartridge cases from it, we fired accuracy and speed tests with it. +Three examiners did the firing, all three being present at the same +time. + +The first tests were made at 15 yards, and shooting at a silhouette +target. + +Mr. EISENBERG. A silhouette of a man? + +Mr. FRAZIER. A paper silhouette target of a man; yes. + +Possibly you may wish to mark these, to refer to them. + +Mr. EISENBERG. These targets were made by you or in your presence? + +Mr. FRAZIER. These are actually copies of the actual targets. I have +the actual targets here, if you would rather use those. However, the +markings show better on the copies than they do on the actual targets. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I request permission to introduce the +copies for the reasons given, as Commission Exhibits 548 and 549. + +Mr. McCLOY. You have made these copies, Mr. Frazier? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I had them made. They are actual xerox copies of the +original targets, which are black, and do not show the markings placed +around the holes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. McCLOY. Back on the record. + +Mr. Frazier, you have the original targets that were used in this +experiment. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. Were you one of the three that fired? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. Can you identify your target as distinguished from the +other two? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. Do you have the target that you fired? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I fired--yes, I do. However, another examiner also fired +at this same target. + +Mr. McCLOY. Have you made a copy of that--or did you cause a copy of +that target to be made? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. And you have that with you? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I do. + +Mr. McCLOY. Have you marked it yet? + +Mr. EISENBERG. No. That would be 548. + +Mr. McCLOY. Suppose you identify that copy. + +Mr. EISENBERG. This copy that you are presenting to us has initials at +the bottom "CC-R-CK"? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And the numbers and letters D-2 on the right-hand margin? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And that has been copied under your supervision? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman? + +Mr. McCLOY. That can be admitted as Commission Exhibit 548. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 548, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. McCLOY. Now, is Commission Exhibit 548 an accurate copy of the +target which you have--that you fired, and which you presented? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it is. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you also have a copy here which has the name on +it Killion, and similar initials, letters, and numbers to the other +target. Is this an accurate copy which you had prepared? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. That was the target fired by Charles Killion in +my presence. + +Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this admitted as 549? + +Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 549, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. This test was performed at 15 yards, did you say, Mr. +Frazier? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. And this series of shots we fired to determine +actually the speed at which the rifle could be fired, not being overly +familiar with this particular firearm, and also to determine the +accuracy of the weapon under those conditions. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And could you give us the names of the three agents who +participated? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Charles Killion, Cortlandt Cunningham, and +myself. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And the date? + +Mr. FRAZIER. November 27, 1963. + +Mr. EISENBERG. How many shots did each agent fire? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Killion fired three, Cunningham fired three, and I fired +three. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And do you have the times within which each agent fired +the three shots? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Killion fired his three shots in nine seconds, +and they are shown--the three shots are interlocking, shown on +Commission Exhibit No. 549. + +Cunningham fired three shots--I know the approximate number of seconds +was seven. + +Cunningham's time was approximately seven seconds. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you at a later date confirm the exact time? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And you will do that by letter to the Commission, or if +you happen to come back by oral testimony? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And your time, Mr. Frazier? + +Mr. FRAZIER. For this series, was six seconds, for my three shots, +which also were on the target at which Mr. Cunningham fired, which is +Exhibit 548. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you characterize the dispersion of the shots on +the two targets which you have been showing us, 548 and 549? + +Mr. FRAZIER. The bullets landed approximately--in Killion's target, No. +549, approximately 2-1/2 inches high, and 1 inch to the right, in the +area about the size of a dime, interlocking in the paper, all three +shots. + +On Commission Exhibit 548, Cunningham fired three shots. These shots +were interlocking, or within an eighth of an inch of each other, and +were located approximately 4 inches high and 1 inch to the right of +the aiming point. The three shots which I fired were--landed in a +three-quarter inch circle, two of them interlocking with Cunningham's +shots, 4 inches high, and approximately 1 inch to the right of the +aiming point. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe the second series of tests? + +Mr. FRAZIER. The second test which was performed was two series of +three shots at 25 yards, instead of 15 yards. I fired both of these +tests, firing them at a cardboard target, in an effort to determine +how fast the weapon could be fired primarily, with secondary purpose +accuracy. + +We did not attempt--I did not attempt to maintain in that test an +accurate rate of fire. + +This is the actual target which I fired. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And that target has all six holes in it? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir--two series of three holes, the first three holes +being marked with the No. 1, and the second series being marked No. 2. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like this introduced as 550. + +Mr. McCLOY. That will be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 550, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you describe for the record the dispersion on the +two series? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. The first series of three shots were +approximately--from 4 to 5 inches high and from 1 to 2 inches to the +right of the aiming point, and landed within a 2-inch circle. These +three shots were fired in 4.8 seconds. The second series of shots +landed--one was about 1 inch high, and the other two about 4 or 5 +inches high, and the maximum spread was 5 inches. + +That series was fired in 4.6 seconds. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And do you have the date? + +Mr. FRAZIER. That also was on the 27th of November. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Same date as the first tests? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And you performed one more test, I believe? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. We fired additional targets at 100 yards on the +range at Quantico, Va., firing groups of three shots. And I have the +four targets we fired here. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like these admitted as 551, 552, +553, and 554. + +Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted. + +(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 551 +through 554, and received in evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Who fired these shots, Mr. Frazier? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I fired them. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you characterize the dispersion on each of the four +targets? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +On Commission Exhibit 551 the three shots landed approximately 5 inches +high and within a 3-1/2-inch circle, almost on a line horizontally +across the target. This target and the other targets were fired on +March 16, 1964 at Quantico, Va. These three shots were fired in 5.9 +seconds. + +The second target fired is Commission Exhibit 552, consisting of three +shots fired in 6.2 seconds, which landed in approximately a 4-1/2 to +5-inch circle located 4 inches high and 3 or 4 inches to the right of +the aiming point. + +Commission Exhibit No. 553 is the third target fired, consisting of +three shots which landed in a 3-inch circle located about 2-1/2 inches +high and 2 inches to the right of the aiming point. + +These three shots were fired in 5.6 seconds. + +And Commission Exhibit No. 554, consisting of three shots fired in 6.5 +seconds, which landed approximately 5 inches high and 5 inches to the +right of the aiming point, all within a 3-1/2-inch circle. + +Mr. McCLOY. The first one is not exactly 5 inches to the right, is it? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. The center of the circle in which they all landed +would be about 5 inches high and 5 inches to the right. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, could you tell us why, in your opinion, all +the shots, virtually all the shots, are grouped high and to the right +of the aiming point? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. When we attempted to sight in this rifle at +Quantico, we found that the elevation adjustment in the telescopic +sight was not sufficient to bring the point of impact to the aiming +point. In attempting to adjust and sight-in the rifle, every time we +changed the adjusting screws to move the crosshairs in the telescopic +sight in one direction it also affected the movement of the impact +or the point of impact in the other direction. That is, if we moved +the crosshairs in the telescope to the left it would also affect the +elevation setting of the telescope. And when we had sighted-in the +rifle approximately, we fired several shots and found that the shots +were not all landing in the same place, but were gradually moving away +from the point of impact. This was apparently due to the construction +of the telescope, which apparently did not stabilize itself--that is, +the spring mounting in the crosshair ring did not stabilize until we +had fired five or six shots. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Pardon me, Mr. Frazier. Have you prepared a diagram of +the telescopic sight? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I wonder whether you could show us that now to help +illustrate the point you are making. + +Let me mark that. + +This diagram was prepared by you? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it was. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And illustrates---- + +Mr. FRAZIER. Excuse me. The actual diagram was copied by me from a +textbook, showing a diagrammatic view of how a telescopic crosshair +ring is mounted in a telescope. + +Mr. EISENBERG. This is a generalized diagram, rather than a diagram of +the specific scope on Exhibit 139? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it is. However, I have checked the scope on Exhibit +139 and found it to be substantially the same as this diagram. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this admitted as 555? + +Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 555, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. FRAZIER. Commission Exhibit No. 555 is a diagrammatic drawing of +the manner in which the crosshair ring is mounted in Exhibit 139, +showing on the right-hand side of the diagram a circular drawing +indicating the outer part of the tube, with an inner circle with a +crossed line in it representing the crosshairs in the telescope. + +There is an elevation-adjusting screw at the top, which pushes the +crosshair ring down against a spring located in the lower left-hand +portion of the circle, or which allows the crosshair ring to come up, +being pushed by the spring on the opposite side of the ring. There is +a windage screw on the right-hand side of the scope tube circle which +adjusts the crosshair ring laterally for windage adjustments. + +The diagram at the left side of Commission's Exhibit 555 shows +diagrammatically the blade spring mounted in the telescope tube which +causes the ring to be pressed against the adjusting screws. + +We found in this telescopic sight on this rifle that this ring was +shifting in the telescope tube so that the gun could not be sighted-in +merely by changing the screws. It was necessary to adjust it, and +then fire several shots to stabilize the crosshair ring by causing +this spring to press tightly against the screws, to the point that +we decided it would not be feasible to completely sight the weapon +inasfar as windage goes, and in addition found that the elevation screw +could not be adjusted sufficiently to bring the point of impact on the +targets down to the sighting point. + +And, therefore, we left the rifle as soon as it became stabilized and +fired all of our shots with the point of impact actually high and to +the right. + +Mr. EISENBERG. As I understand it, the construction of the scope is +such that after the elevation or windage screw has been moved, the +scope does not--is not--automatically pushed up by the blade spring as +it should be, until you have fired several shots? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; that is true--when the crosshairs are largely out +of the center of the tube. And in this case it is necessary to move +the crosshairs completely up into the upper portion of the tube, which +causes this spring to bear in a position out of the ordinary, and for +this windage screw to strike the side or the sloping surface of the +ring rather than at 90 degrees, as it shows in Exhibit 555. With this +screw being off center, both in windage and elevation, the spring is +not strong enough to center the crosshair ring by itself, and it is +necessary to jar it several times, which we did by firing, to bring it +to bear tightly so as to maintain the same position then for the next +shots. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And because of the difficulty you had stabilizing the +crosshair, you did not wish to pursue it to a further refinement, is +that correct? + +Mr. FRAZIER. We sighted the scope in relatively close, fired it, and +decided rather than fire more ammunition through the weapon, we would +use these targets which we had fired. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, once the crosshairs had been stabilized, did you +find that they stayed, remained stabilized? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; they did. + +Mr. EISENBERG. How long do you think the crosshairs would remain +stabilized in Exhibit 139, assuming no violent jar? + +Mr. FRAZIER. They should remain stabilized continuously. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Do you know when the defect in this scope, which causes +you not to be able to adjust the elevation crosshair in the manner it +should be--do you know when this defect was introduced into the scope? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No; I do not. However, on the back end of the scope tube +there is a rather severe scrape which was on this weapon when we +received it in the laboratory, in which some of the metal has been +removed, and the scope tube could have been bent or damaged. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you first test the weapon for accuracy on November +27th? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Have you any way of determining whether the defect +pre-existed November 27th? + +Mr. FRAZIER. When we fired on November 27th, the shots were landing +high and slightly to the right. However, the scope was apparently +fairly well stabilized at that time, because three shots would land in +an area the size of a dime under rapid-fire conditions, which would not +have occurred if the interior mechanism of the scope was shifting. + +Mr. EISENBERG. But you are unable to say whether--or are you able +to say whether--the defect existed before November 27th? That is, +precisely when it was introduced? + +Mr. FRAZIER. As far as to be unable to adjust the scope, actually, I +could not say when it had been introduced. I don't know actually what +the cause is. It may be that the mount has been bent or the crosshair +ring shifted. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, when you were running, let's say, the last +test, could you have compensated for this defect? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; you could take an aiming point low and to the left +and have the shots strike a predetermined point. But it would be no +different from taking these targets and putting an aiming point in the +center of the bullet-impact area. Here that would be the situation you +would have--an aiming point off to the side and an impact area at the +high right corner. + +Mr. EISENBERG. If you had been shooting to score bulls-eyes, in a +bulls-eye pattern, what would you have--what action, if any, would you +have taken, to improve your score? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I would have aimed low and to the left--after finding how +high the bullets were landing; you would compensate by aiming low left, +or adjusting the mount of the scope in a manner which would cause the +hairlines to coincide with the point of impact. + +Mr. EISENBERG. How much practice had you had with the rifle before the +last series of four targets were shot by you? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I had fired it possibly 20 rounds, 15 to 20 rounds, and in +addition had operated the bolt repeatedly. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Does practice with this weapon--or would practice with +this weapon--materially shorten the time in which three shots could be +accurately fired? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; very definitely. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Would practice without actually firing the weapon be +helpful--that is, a dry-run practice? + +Mr. FRAZIER. That would be most helpful, particularly in a bolt-action +weapon, where it is necessary to shift your hand from the trigger area +to the bolt, operate the bolt, and go back to the trigger after closing +the bolt. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Based on your experience with the weapon, do you think +three shots could be fired accurately within 5-1/2 seconds if no rest +was utilized? + +Mr. FRAZIER. That would depend on the accuracy which was necessary +or needed or which you desired. I think you could fire the shots in +that length of time, but whether you could place them, say, in a 3- or +4-inch circle without either resting or possibly using the sling as a +support--I doubt that you could accomplish that. + +Mr. EISENBERG. How--these targets at which you fired stationary at 100 +yards--how do you think your time would have been affected by use of a +moving target? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It would have slowed down the shooting. It would have +lengthened the time to the extent of allowing the crosshairs to pass +over the moving target. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you give an amount? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Approximately 1 second. It would depend on how fast the +target was moving, and whether it was moving away from you or towards +you or at right angles. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Do you think you could shorten your time with further +practice with the weapon? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you give us an estimate on that? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I fired three shots in 4.6 seconds at 25 yards with +approximately a 3-inch spread, which is the equivalent of a 12-inch +spread at a hundred yards. And I feel that a 12-inch relative circle +could be reduced to 6 inches or even less with considerable practice +with the weapon. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That is in the 4.6-second time? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. I would say from 4.8 to 5 seconds, in that area--4.6 +is firing this weapon as fast as the bolt can be operated, I think. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I am now going to ask you several hypothetical +questions concerning the factors which might have affected the aim +of the assassin on November 22d, and I would like you to make the +following assumptions in answering these questions: First, that the +assassin fired his shots from the window near which the cartridges were +found--that is, the easternmost window on the south face of the sixth +floor of the School Book Depository Building, which is 60 feet above +the ground, and several more feet above the position at which the car +was apparently located when the shots were fired. + +Second, that the length of the trajectory of the first shot was 175 +feet, and that the length of the trajectory of the third shot was 265 +feet. + +And third, that the elapsed time between the firing of the first and +third shots was 5-1/2 seconds. + +Based on those assumptions, Mr. Frazier, approximately what lead +would the assassin have had to give his target to compensate for its +movement--and here I would disregard any possible defect in the scope. + +Mr. FRAZIER. I would say he would have to lead approximately 2 feet +under both such situations. The lead would, of course, be dependent +upon the direction in which the object was moving, primarily. If it is +moving away from you, then, of course, the actual lead of, say, 2 feet +which he would have to lead would be interpreted as a considerably less +lead in elevation above the target, because the target will move the 2 +feet in a direction away from the shooter, and the apparent lead then +would be cut to one foot or 12 inches or 8 inches or something of that +nature, due to the movement of the individual. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Have you made calculations to achieve the figures you +gave? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I made the calculations, but I don't have them with me. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you supply these to us, either in further +testimony or by letter, Mr. Frazier? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I have one object here, a diagram which will illustrate +that lead, if you would like to use that. This is drawn to scale from +those figures which you quoted as building height, and distances of 175 +feet and 265 feet. + +Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, these figures are approximations of the +figures believed to be involved in the assassination. + +Will you supply the data at a later date? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I can furnish that. + +Mr. EISENBERG. May I have permission to introduce this as 556? + +Mr. McCLOY. That will be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 556, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you show the lead in that diagram, Mr. Frazier? + +Mr. FRAZIER. In Commission Exhibit 556, it shows a triangular diagram +with the vertical line on the left-hand side illustrating the height of +the building. The figures of a 60-foot building height plus---- + +Mr. EISENBERG. That is height of the muzzle above the ground? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No--window sill--60-foot window sill height above the +ground, with an assumed 2-foot height in addition to accommodate the +height of the rifle above the possible--the possible height of the +rifle above the window sill. + +The horizontal line extends outward from the building to a small +rectangular block, and then a sloping line illustrates a 5-foot slope +from the 175-foot point to the 265-foot point. + +(At this point, Representative Boggs entered the hearing room.) + +Mr. FRAZIER. The time of flight of the bullet of approximately 8/100ths +of a second and, again, it was necessary to assume--the time of flight +of the bullet from the window to this first location of 175 feet is +approximately 8/100ths of a second, which means a 2-foot lead on the +target. That is, the target would move 2 feet in that interval of time, +thereby necessitating shooting slightly ahead of the target to hit your +aiming point. That has been diagrammatically illustrated by a 2-foot +distance laid off on this rectangular block here, and two lines, very +fine lines, drawn back towards the window area. + +The right-hand side of Commission's 556 shows the same rectangular +block, again with two lines drawn to it, one illustrating the point of +aim and the other the amount of lead which would be necessary to strike +an object aimed at which was moving, according to the time of flight of +the projectile. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And you calculated the speed of the car by translating +the figures on total time elapsed between first and third shots? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. The time--the speed of the moving object was +calculated on the basis of an assumed 5.5-second interval for a +distance of 90 feet, which figures out mathematically to be 11.3 miles +per hour. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you said before that in order to give this 2-foot +lead, you would have to aim 2 inches--for a target going away from you, +you would have to aim 2 inches above the target, or in front of the +target. + +Mr. FRAZIER. 2 feet in front of the target, which would interpolate +into a much lower actual elevation change. + +Mr. EISENBERG. The elevation change would be 2 inches, is that it? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, no. It would be on the order of 6 to 8 inches. + +Mr. EISENBERG. 6 to 8 inches? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What was your 2-inch figure? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I don't recall. + +Mr. EISENBERG. But it is 6 to 8 inches in elevation? + +Representative BOGGS. May I ask a question? + +Using that telescopic lens, how would you aim that rifle to achieve +that distinction? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, it would be necessary to hold the crosshairs an +estimated distance off the target, of say, 6 inches over the intended +target, so what when the shot was fired the crosshairs should be +located about 6 inches over your target, and in the length of time +that the bullet was in the air and the length of time the object was +moving, the object would move into actually, the path of the bullet in +approximately 1/10th to 13/100ths of a second. + +Mr. EISENBERG. So that if the target of the assassin was the center of +the President's head, and he wanted to give a correct lead, where would +he have aimed, if we eliminate the possibility of errors introduced by +other factors? + +Mr. FRAZIER. He would aim from 4 to 6 inches--approximately 2 inches, I +would say, above the President's head, which would be actually 6 inches +above his aiming point at the center of the head. + +Mr. EISENBERG. How difficult is it to give this--a lead of this +size--to this type of target? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It would not be difficult at all with a telescopic sight, +because your target is enlarged four times, and you can estimate very +quickly in a telescopic sight, inches or feet or lead of any desired +amount. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Would it be substantially easier than it would be with +an open or peep sight? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. It would be much more difficult to do with the open +iron sights, the notched rear sight and the blade front sight, which is +on Exhibit 139. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you have been able to calculate the precise amount +of lead which should be given, because you have been given figures. If +you had been in the assassin's position, and were attempting to give a +correct lead, what lead do you think you would have estimated as being +the necessary lead? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It would have been a very small amount, in the +neighborhood of a 3-inch lead. + +Mr. EISENBERG. As opposed to the 6 or 8 inches? + +Mr. FRAZIER. As opposed to about 6 inches, yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What would the consequence of the mistake in assumption +as to lead be--that is, if you gave a 3-inch lead rather than the +correct lead? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It would be a difference of a 3-inch variation in the +point of impact on the target. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, if you had aimed at the center of the President's +head, and given a 3-inch lead, again eliminating other errors, where +would you have hit, if you hit accurately? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It would be 3 inches below the center of his head--from +the top--it would be not the actual center from the back, but the +center would be located high. The bullet would strike at possibly the +base of the skull. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, suppose you had given no lead at all and aimed at +that target and aimed accurately. Where would the bullet have hit? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It would hit the base of the neck--approximately 6 inches +below the center of the head. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, would you have tried to give a lead at all, +if you had been in that position? + +Mr. FRAZIER. At that range, at that distance, 175 to 265 feet, with +this rifle and that telescopic sight, I would not have allowed any +lead--I would not have made any correction for lead merely to hit a +target of that size. + +Mr. McCLOY. May I ask a question? + +In your experimentation, in your firing of those shots that you have +testified to a little while back, when you fired the first shot, was +the shot in the chamber, or did you have to push it into the chamber by +use of the bolt? + +Mr. FRAZIER. This was fired with a loaded chamber, and timed from the +time of this first shot until the last shot. + +Mr. McCLOY. Did you shoot offhand or did you shoot with a rest? + +Mr. FRAZIER. We shot with a rest, both the other individuals and +myself, on each occasion, with one arm resting on a bench or a table. + +Mr. McCLOY. Were you prone, or were you standing up? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, we were sitting, actually, sitting or kneeling, in +order to bring the arm down to the rest we were using. + +Mr. McCLOY. One other question. + +You keep referring to, and the questions kept referring to, "lead." By +"lead," in this instance, you would mean height above the aiming point +rather than---- + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. To the right, let's say, of the aiming point? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. McCLOY. Because it was a going away shot? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. That is all. + +Representative BOGGS. May I ask a question? + +Where did you conduct these tests? + +Mr. FRAZIER. The targets were fired both on the indoor range in the +FBI range here in Washington and the 100-yard tests were fired at the +Quantico, Va., FBI ranges. + +Representative BOGGS. Have any tests--have there been any simulated +tests in the building in Texas? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I don't know, sir. + +Representative BOGGS. But the FBI has not conducted any? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Not to my knowledge. There may have been measurements and +things of that nature taken, but I don't know. + +Representative BOGGS. Now, in these tests, was there any difficulty +about firing this rifle three times within the space or period of time +that has been given to the Commission--5 seconds, I think. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, let me say this. I fired the rifle three times, +in accordance with that system of timing it from the first shot with +the chamber loaded until the last shot occurred--three times in 4.6 +seconds, 4.8 seconds, 5.6 seconds, 5.8, 5.9, and another one a little +over 6, or in that neighborhood. The tenth of a second variation could +very easily be as a result of the timing procedure used. A reflex of +just not stopping the stopwatch in a tenth of a second. + +Representative BOGGS. You were firing at a simulated target? + +Mr. FRAZIER. These targets previously introduced, or copies of the +targets, are those which we actually fired. + +Representative BOGGS. My questions are really a followup of the +Chairman's question. + +These practices--were you just practicing for time, or were you +practicing under conditions similar to those existing in Dallas at the +time of the assassination? + +Mr. FRAZIER. The tests we ran were for the purposes of determining +whether we could fire this gun accurately in a limited amount of time, +and specifically to determine whether it could be fired accurately in 6 +seconds. + +Now, we assumed the 6 seconds empirically--that is, we had not been +furnished with any particular time interval. Later we were furnished +with a time interval of 5.5 seconds. However, I have no independent +knowledge--had no independent knowledge of the time interval or the +accuracy. But we merely fired it to demonstrate the results from +rapidly firing the weapon, reloading the gun and so on, in a limited +time. + +Representative BOGGS. Were there other tests conducted to determine the +accuracy of the weapon and so on? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir--only the rapid-fire accuracy tests were fired by +the FBI. + +Representative BOGGS. There is no reason to believe that this weapon is +not accurate, is there? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It is a very accurate weapon. The targets we fired show +that. + +Representative BOGGS. That was the point I was trying to establish. + +Mr. FRAZIER. This Exhibit 549 is a target fired, showing that the +weapon will, even under rapid-fire conditions, group closely--that is, +one shot with the next. + +Representative BOGGS. How many shots in the weapon? Five? + +Mr. McCLOY. The clip takes six itself. You can put a seventh in the +chamber. It could hold seven, in other words. But the clip is only a +six-shot clip. + +Representative BOGGS. Was the weapon fully loaded at the time of the +assassination? + +Mr. McCLOY. I don't know how many shells--three shells were picked up. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. McCLOY. Back on the record. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, turning back to the scope, if the elevation +crosshair was defective at the time of the assassination, in the same +manner it is now, and no compensation was made for this defect, how +would this have interacted with the amount of lead which needed to be +given to the target? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, may I say this first. I do not consider the +crosshair as being defective, but only the adjusting mechanism does not +have enough tolerance to bring the crosshair to the point of impact +of the bullet. As to how that would affect the lead--the gun, when we +first received it in the laboratory and fired these first targets, shot +high and slightly to the right. + +If you were shooting at a moving target from a high elevation, +relatively high elevation, moving away from you, it would be necessary +for you to shoot over that object in order for the bullet to strike +your intended target, because the object during the flight of the +bullet would move a certain distance. + +The fact that the crosshairs are set high would actually compensate for +any lead which had to be taken. So that if you aimed with this weapon +as it actually was received at the laboratory, it would be necessary to +take no lead whatsoever in order to hit the intended object. The scope +would accomplish the lead for you. + +I might also say that it also shot slightly to the right, which would +tend to cause you to miss your target slightly to the right. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, on that last question, did you attempt to center +the windage crosshair, to sight-in the windage crosshair? + +Mr. FRAZIER. We attempted to, and found that it was changing--the +elevation was changing the windage. So we merely left the windage as it +was. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you say conclusively that the windage crosshair +could not be centered in, sighted-in? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. I would say that the windage could have been +centered in the telescope to bring the windage to the aiming line. + +Mr. EISENBERG. So that--and if that had been done, then you would not +have this problem of dispersion to the right? + +Mr. FRAZIER. That's true. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, turning to---- + +Representative BOGGS. Excuse me just a moment. Do you have any opinion +on whether or not the sight was deliberately set that way? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I do not. And I think I must say here that this +mount was loose on the rifle when we received it. And apparently +the scope had even been taken off of the rifle, in searching for +fingerprints on the rifle. So that actually the way it was sighted-in +when we got it does not necessarily mean it was sighted-in that way +when it was abandoned. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Carrying this question a little bit further on the +deliberateness of the sighting-in, the problem with the elevation +crosshair is built into the mounting of the scope, is that correct? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. The mount is not screwed to the rifle in such a +fashion that it points the scope at the target closely enough to +permit adjusting the crosshair to accurately sight-in the rifle. + +Representative BOGGS. One other question, then. + +It is possible, is it not, to so adjust the telescopic sight to +compensate for that change in the target? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes. You can accomplish that merely by putting shims +under the front of the scope and over the back of the scope to tip the +scope in the mount itself, to bring it into alinement. + +Representative BOGGS. So an accomplished person, accustomed to using +that weapon, anticipating a shot of that type, might very well have +made such an adjustment prior to using the rifle; isn't that so? + +Mr. FRAZIER. If it were necessary; yes. There were no shims in the +weapon, either under the mount, where it screws to the weapon, or in +the two mounting rings, when we received it in the laboratory. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have any shims with you, Mr. Frazier? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. When we received the weapon yesterday, there were +shims mounted in the rifle. The one under the front end of the mount is +in this envelope. + +Representative BOGGS. But they were not there when you received it +originally? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. These were placed there by some other individual. + +Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, these were placed by the ballistics +laboratory of the Army, a representative of which will testify later. + +Now, turning to another possible source of error in aim, Mr. Frazier, +if a rifle such as Exhibit 139 is sighted-in with the use of a target +at a given distance, and it is aimed at a target which is further away +or closer than the target which was used for sighting-in purposes, +will any error be introduced by reason of the fact that the target is +further or closer away than the sighting-in target? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it will, because the bullet in leaving the muzzle +follows a curved path rather than a straight path, and in order to hit +a specific target at a specific range, it is necessary for the bullet +to travel up and drop down to the target, rather than have the bore +pointed right at the target at the time of discharge. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you calculate the amount of error which would be +introduced by a specific projectile? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Have you made such calculations? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I have taken calculations for similar weight and velocity +bullets from ballistics tables, which bullets approximate the velocity +of the 6.5 mm. bullet and the weight of that bullet as fired from 139. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Are these results affected by the rifle which is +employed, or do they depend upon the missile? + +Mr. FRAZIER. They depend upon the weight and shape of the missile and +the velocity, but not upon the weapon. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you give us the results of these calculations? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; if you, for instance, take this rifle with a +telescopic sight and sight it in for 300 feet--that is, the bullet will +strike where you are looking when you are shooting at 300 feet--at +200 feet the bullet will be above the line of sight approximately +one-quarter of an inch, and at 100 feet it will be approximately +one-quarter of an inch below the line of sight. That is accomplished +because the bullet is still coming up at 100 feet, it crosses the +line of sight, and does not descend again to it until you come to the +sighting-in distance of 300 feet. + +If you sighted-in to strike at 450 feet, the bullet at 100 feet would +be just at the line of sight--that is, on its way up would just cross +the line of sight at about 100 feet. It would be one inch high at 200 +feet, and approximately one and one-eighth inches high at 300 feet. + +It would, of course, drop back down to the point of aim at 450 feet. If +you sighted-in at 600 feet, then at 100 feet it would be approximately +one-half inch high. At 200 feet it would be 2 inches high, and at 300 +feet it would be approximately 3 inches high. + +Representative BOGGS. Is this a stationary target? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, this is shooting from a rest at a stationary target. + +Representative BOGGS. This is just a normal---- + +Mr. FRAZIER. This is just the trajectory of the bullet. + +Representative BOGGS. I understand. + +Mr. FRAZIER. As calculated---- + +Mr. McCLOY. Putting it another way, what would be the drop of the +bullet at a hundred yards if you aim point-blank straight at that +target? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Assuming no sighting or anything, the bullet would drop +about 1.2 inches from the line of the bore at 100 yards. + +Representative BOGGS. 1.2 inches? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Representative BOGGS. But now the telescopic sight at a hundred yards +would correct that? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Actually, you would sight so that the muzzle is +tipped up slightly with reference to the sight. + +Mr. EISENBERG. The error would be introduced if you shot at a target +which is closer or further away than the sighting-in target; is that +correct? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, that's right. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Would you characterize these errors as material? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I would not--unless you began shooting at +distances well beyond your sighting-in point--then the amount of +variation increases very rapidly. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What would be the usual minimum distance you use for +sighting-in a weapon such as Exhibit 139? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It would vary from place to place depending upon shooting +conditions, and I would say it would seldom be sighted-in for less than +150 or 200 yards. + +Mr. EISENBERG. So that if the shots involved in the assassination were +fired at 175 feet and 265 feet respectively, they would be shorter than +the sighting-in distance and therefore not materially affected by the +trajectory characteristics, is that correct? + +Mr. FRAZIER. That is correct, yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, based upon the characteristics of Exhibit 139, +and the ammunition it employs, and based upon your experience with +the weapon, would you consider it to have been a good choice for the +commission of a crime such as the assassination? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I would. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain that? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. Any rifle, regardless of its caliber, would be a good +choice if it would shoot accurately. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And did you find this shot accurately? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Representative BOGGS. Would you consider the shots difficult +shots--talking about the shots from the sixth-floor window to the head +of the President and to Governor Connally? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I would not under the circumstances--a relatively +slow-moving target, and very short distance, and a telescopic sight. + +Representative BOGGS. You are not answering that as an expert. + +Mr. FRAZIER. From my own experience in shooting over the years, when +you shoot at 175 feet or 260 feet, which is less than a hundred yards, +with a telescopic sight, you should not have any difficulty in hitting +your target. + +Representative BOGGS. Putting my question another way, you would not +have to be an expert marksman to accomplish this objective? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I would say no, you certainly would not. + +Representative BOGGS. And a man is a relatively large target, is he not? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I would say you would have to be very familiar +with the weapon to fire it rapidly, and do this--hit this target at +those ranges. But the marksmanship is accomplished by the telescopic +sight. I mean it requires no training at all to shoot a weapon with a +telescopic sight once you know that you must put the crosshairs on the +target and that is all that is necessary. + +Mr. EISENBERG. How does the recoil of this weapon compare with the +recoil of the average military rifle? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Considerably less. The recoil is nominal with this +weapon, because it has a very low velocity and pressure, and just an +average-size bullet weight. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Would that trend to improve the shooter's marksmanship? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Under rapid-fire conditions, yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Would that make it a better choice than a more +powerfully recoiling weapon for the type of crime which was committed? + +Mr. FRAZIER. For shooting rapidly, this would be a much better choice, +because the recoil does not throw the muzzle nearly so far off the +target, it does not jar the shooter nearly so much, as a higher-powered +rifle, such as a .30/06 or a .270 Winchester, or a German 8 mm. Mauser, +for instance, or one of the other military-type weapons available. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is the killing power of the bullets essentially similar +to the killing power at these ranges--the killing power of the rifles +you have named? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. How much difference is there? + +Mr. FRAZIER. The higher velocity bullets of approximately the same +weight would have more killing power. This has a low velocity, but has +very adequate killing power with reference to humans, because it is a +military--it is an established military weapon. + +Representative BOGGS. This is a military weapon, is it not? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. That is designed to kill a human being. + +Representative BOGGS. Exactly. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Unless there are further questions on the weapon, I am +going to move into the area of the identification of the cartridge +cases and the bullets. + +Mr. McCLOY. I may say I have to leave at twelve o'clock for a +twelve-fifteen appointment. I will be back this afternoon. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, returning to the cartridge cases which were +marked earlier into evidence as Commission Exhibits 543, 544, and 545, +and which, as I stated earlier for the record, had been found next to +the window of the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository, can +you tell us when you received those cartridge cases? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I received the first of the exhibits, 543 and +544, on November 23, 1963. They were delivered to me by Special Agent +Vincent Drain of the Dallas FBI Office. + +And the other one I received on November 27, 1963, which was delivered +by Special Agents Vincent Drain and Warren De Brueys of the Dallas +Office. + +Mr. EISENBERG. After receiving these cartridge cases, did you clean +them up or in any way prepare them for examination? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. The bases were cleaned of a paint which was placed on +them by the manufacturer. In spots this red lacquer on the base of the +case was overlapping the head of the case where some of the microscopic +marks were located, and some of that color was taken off. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Why is that lacquer put on the cartridge cases? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It seals the primer area against moisture. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Were there any other changes made in the preparation of +the cartridge cases? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. You have examined the cartridge cases previously. Are +they in the same condition now that they were when you received them in +the laboratory except for the cleaning of the lacquer? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; they are. + +Mr. EISENBERG. After receiving the cartridge cases, did you examine +them to determine whether they had been fired in Commission Exhibit 139? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. When did you make the examinations? + +Mr. FRAZIER. On the dates I mentioned, that is, November 23, 1963, and +November 27, 1963. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And what were your conclusions, Mr. Frazier? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I found all three of the cartridge cases had been fired in +this particular weapon. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe the examination which you conducted to +reach these conclusions? + +Mr. FRAZIER. The first step was to fire test cartridge cases in this +rifle to pick up the microscopic marks which are left on all cartridge +cases fired in this weapon by the face of the bolt. Then those test +cartridge cases were mounted on a comparison microscope, on the +right-hand side, and on the left-hand side of the comparison microscope +was mounted one of the three submitted cartridge cases, so that you +could magnify the surfaces of the test and the evidence and compare the +marks left on the cartridge cases by the bolt face and the firing pin +of the rifle. + +(At this point, Mr. McCloy left the hearing room.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. I now hand you two cartridge cases, and ask you whether +you can identify these cartridge cases? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; these are the two cartridge cases we fired for +test purposes in Exhibit 139. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Do they have your mark on them? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, they do. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Commissioner Boggs, may I introduce these as 557? + +Representative BOGGS. They may be admitted. + +(The items referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 557 for +identification and received in evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. These were the only two cartridge cases fired as tests +in Exhibit 139--as tests for the purpose of identification of the +cartridge cases which you examined before, 543, 544, and 545? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; these two were used in those tests. There were +many other cartridge cases fired, but not for that purpose. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain how you are able to come to a conclusion +that a cartridge case was fired in a particular weapon to the exclusion +of all other weapons? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; during the manufacture of a weapon, there are +certain things done to the mechanism of it, which are by machine or +by filing, by grinding, which form the parts of the weapon into their +final shape. These machining and grinding and filing operations will +mark the metal with very fine scratches or turning marks and grinding +marks in such a way that there will be developed on the surface of the +metal a characteristic pattern. This pattern, because it is made by +these accidental machine-type operations, will be characteristic of +that particular weapon, and will not be reproduced on separate weapons. +It may be a combination of marks that--the face of the bolt may be +milled, then it may be in part filed to smooth off the corners, and +then, as a final operation, it may be polished, or otherwise adjusted +during the hand fitting operation, so that it does have its particular +pattern of microscopic marks. + +The bolt face of the 139 rifle I have photographed and enlarged in this +photograph to show the types of marks I was referring to. + +Mr. EISENBERG. You took this photograph yourself, and it is a +photograph of the bolt face of the 139 rifle? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this introduced as 558? + +Representative BOGGS. It may be admitted. + +(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 558, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. What is the magnification of this bolt-face photograph? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Approximately 11 diameters. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you slip out the bolt of the rifle so we could see +how it compares, and show us the part of the bolt which is photographed? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Orienting the photograph with the writing at the bottom, +orients the bolt also, as it comes out of the rifle--with the slot +shown as a groove on the bottom of the bolt. Then the extractor on +the bolt, is the area shown at the left side of the photograph, as you +view it--the actual bolt face itself is inset into the bolt below the +surface of the extractor, and a supporting shoulder around it, and in +the center, of course, is the firing-pin hole and the firing pin. + +The marks produced during manufacture are the marks seen on the bolt +face; filing marks, machining marks of the various types, even forging +marks or casting marks if the bolt happens to be forged or cast. And +then variations which occur in these marks during the life of the +weapon are very important in identification, because many of the +machining marks can be flattened out, can be changed, by merely a grain +of sand between the face of the cartridge case and the bolt at the time +a shot is fired, which will itself scratch and dent the bolt face. So +the bolt face will pick up a characteristic pattern of marks which are +peculiar to it. + +The same is true of extractors and ejectors. They are in turn machined +and will have a pattern of marks or scratches on their surfaces which +will mark cartridge cases in the same manner each time. + +The comparison we made was of the marks appearing in this photograph, +558, in fairly close proximity to the firing pin hole, since that is +the area that the primer in the head of the cartridge case comes in +contact with. + +The primer in a cartridge case normally takes marks more readily +than the surrounding brass portion of the cartridge case, which is a +considerably harder metal and is not impressed with these marks as +readily. + +The three cartridge cases, 553, 554, and 555, were compared---- + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is that 543, 544, and 545? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I am sorry--yes, 543, 544, and 545. These three cartridge +cases were placed one at a time on the comparison microscope, and the +surfaces having the breech-face marks or the bolt marks were compared +with those on the test cartridge cases, Exhibit 557. As a result of +comparing the pattern of microscopic markings on the test cartridge +cases and those marks on Exhibits 543, 544, and 545, both of the face +of the bolt and the firing pin, I concluded that these three had been +fired in this particular weapon. + +Representative BOGGS. Who manufactured these cartridges? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Western Cartridge Co., East Alton, Ill. + +Representative BOGGS. They manufacture cartridges and bullets for all +manner of rifles? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, they do. + +Representative BOGGS. This is not--this rifle is not common in the +United States, is it? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It is fairly common now, but at the time it was +manufactured or used primarily it was not. It was imported into this +country as surplus military equipment, and has been advertised quite +widely. + +Representative BOGGS. These three cartridge--these three shells that +you had were the same as the live ones that were found there, were they +not? + +Mr. FRAZIER. There was one live cartridge found. They are identical. + +Representative BOGGS. And the live one was manufactured also by---- + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, the Western Cartridge Co. It bears the head stamp +"WCO" and "6.5. mm." + +Representative BOGGS. These are not difficult to obtain? You can buy +them anywhere? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, you can buy them from mail-order houses primarily, +or a few gun shops that have accumulated a supply by ordering them. The +information we have is that two million rounds were imported into the +United States in one lot, one shipment--and they have been transmitted +over the country and are for sale by several different surplus gun +shops--used guns--mail-order houses and places of that nature--and +gunsmiths, and firearms shops sell this ammunition. + +Representative BOGGS. Go ahead. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, what is the basis of the statement you made +earlier that no two bolt faces would be the same? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Because the marks which are placed on any bolt face are +accidental in nature. That is, they are not placed there intentionally +in the first place. They are residual to some machining operation, +such as a milling machine, in which each cutter of the milling tool +cuts away a portion of the metal; then the next tooth comes along and +cuts away a little more, and so on, until the final surface bears the +combination of the various teeth of the milling cutter. In following +that operation, then, the surface is additionally scratched--until +you have numerous--we call them microscopic characteristics, a +characteristic being a mark which is peculiar to a certain place on +the bolt face, and of a certain shape, it is of a certain size, it has +a certain contour, it may be just a little dimple in the metal, or a +spot of rust at one time on the face of the bolt, or have occurred from +some accidental means such as dropping the bolt, or repeated use having +flattened or smoothed off the surface of the metal. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Why doesn't a series of the same machines, or repeated +use of the same machines, cause the same results, apart from future +accidental markings? + +Mr. FRAZIER. In some instances a certain type of cutter will duplicate +a certain pattern of marks. In general you will find for a milling +cutter a circular mark. And you may find the same pattern of circles. +But that milling cutter does not actually cut the steel; it tears it +out, it chips it out, and the surface of the metal then is rough--even +though the circle is there, the circle is not a smooth circle, but it +is a result of tearing out the metal, and you will have a very rough +surface. When magnified sufficiently, you can detect the difference +even between two similarly milled surfaces because of the minor +variations in the cutting operation. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Have you had occasion to examine such similarly-milled +surfaces? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes; many times. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Would you go into detail on that? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, part of my work in the laboratory is dealing +with tool-marks of all types, from drills, mills, files, cutting +instruments, and so on. And when you are dealing with filing marks +or milling marks and so on, it is sometimes possible to identify a +particular mill as having made a certain mark on the basis of the +grinding marks on that particular mill. But such as a case like this, +where the cutting marks have now been altered through use of the weapon +and corrosion, or in wear or in filing, some of the original marks +are removed, and other marks are in their place, until eventually you +reach a condition where that bolt face will be entirely different from +any other bolt face. It is a matter actually--when you get down to the +basis of it, it is a matter of a mathematical impossibility in the +realm of human experience for any two things to ever be exactly alike. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That is because the original markings will not be +exactly alike, and then you have added accidental markings on top of +the original ones? + +Mr. FRAZIER. That is right; yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Returning for a moment to the original markings, as +I understand it, you have worked with the tools themselves and the +impressions the tools themselves leave, as opposed to a tooled surface, +such as this. + +Mr. FRAZIER. I have worked with both. In other words, in comparing +tool-marks, you examine not only the tool, but the marks they produce. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And in working with these tools, as I understand your +testimony, you have found that the markings which a tool leaves, which +the same tool leaves, will be distinctive. + +Mr. FRAZIER. That is true, yes. When it is a scrape or an impression +from its surface, or something of that nature, it can be very readily +identified. But if it is a drill or something of that nature, where you +have a tearing operation, then it is not readily identified, but it +occasionally can be identified. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Well, how many such examinations do you think you have +made? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Thousands of them. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Have you noticed whether the marks left by a given +tool--that you have examined--change over the course of the use of the +tool? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, they change very rapidly when a tool is used to cut a +hard object. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you elaborate on what you mean by "very rapidly"? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, for instance, when using a pry bar, for example, +one insertion of a pry bar into the hard insulation of a safe, with +pressure applied to it can change the entire blade of the tool to the +extent that you could not identify a succession of marks, because of +the abrasion by the insulation. But that same tool, used to mark a soft +steel or brass or copper, could make mark after mark without changing, +or only a small portion of it may change with each impression. Or it +may gradually change over a period of time. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, is the metal in the bolt face a hard metal or a +soft metal? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I would say it was hard metal---- + +Mr. EISENBERG. Well---- + +Mr. FRAZIER. With reference to copper or other softer metals--it is a +steel. I could not say how hard it actually is. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What will the effect of the metal used in the bolt face +be upon the tool which is used to finish it off, cut it and finish it +off? + +Mr. FRAZIER. The tool will gradually wear out. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Well, will the tool leave different marks on the end of +the bolt face from one bolt to the very next bolt face? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes; that very often happens. The tool is worn out or +the small cuttings get underneath the edge, between the tool, and nick +the edge of the tool, so that the tool will gradually change over a +period of time. The cutting edge--the amount of change depends upon the +amount of wear, the heat involved, and the hardness of the metal--the +relative hardness of the metal. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Will that particular change be noticed invariably in two +consecutive bolt faces? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. So what is the genesis of the difference in the two +consecutive bolt faces as they come from the manufacturer? + +Mr. FRAZIER. The change, as I said, depends on the bolt you are using. +It does not always take place, because some bolts are made of a very +soft metal, and they will not necessarily change a machining tool to +that extent. + +Mr. EISENBERG. But the markings, you said, would be different on two +consecutive bolt faces? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And if the tool is not changed, what is the origin of +the difference between the markings? + +Mr. FRAZIER. There are other accidental markings placed there during +the machining operation. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you describe that? + +Mr. FRAZIER. For instance, as the blade of a milling machine travels +around a surface, it takes off actually a dust--it is not actually a +piece of metal--it scrapes a little steel off in the form of a dust--or +a very fine powder or chip--that tooth leaves a certain pattern of +marks--that edge. That milling cutter may have a dozen of these edges +on its surface, and each one takes a little more. Gradually you wear +the metal down, you tear it out actually until you are at the proper +depth. Those little pieces of metal, as they are traveling around, can +also scratch the face of the bolt--unless they are washed away. So that +you may have accidental marks from that source, just in the machining +operation. + +Now, there are two types of marks produced in a cutting operation. One, +from the nicks along the cutting edge of the tool, which are produced +by a circular operating tool--which produce very fine scratches in +a circular pattern. Each time the tool goes around, it erases those +marks that were there before. And when the tool is finally lifted out, +you have a series of marks which go around the surface which has been +machined, and you will find that that pattern of marks, as this tool +goes around, will change. In one area, it will be one set of marks--and +as you visually examine the surface of the metal, these very fine +marks will extend for a short distance, then disappear, and a new mark +of a new type will begin and extend for a short distance. The entire +surface, then, will have a--be composed of a series of circles, but the +individual marks seen in the microscope will not be circular, will not +form complete circles around the face of the bolt. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Have you had occasion to examine two consecutive bolt +faces from a factory? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And what did you find on that examination? + +Mr. FRAZIER. There would be no similarity in the individual microscopic +characteristics between the two bolt faces. + +Mr. EISENBERG. There actually was none? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, there was none. + +Mr. EISENBERG. In the bolt face with which we are dealing, Exhibit 139, +can you say from inspection whether the markings on that bolt face +are predominantly the accidental markings introduced subsequent to +manufacture, or the markings of the manufacture? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I would say that these were filing marks for the most part +which were made during manufacture, some of which have been obliterated +and changed through use--possibly corrosion. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, taking Exhibit 543, did you prepare a +photograph of this exhibit---- + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Compared with the test cartridge case? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; this is the photograph, showing the test +cartridge case from Exhibit 557 on the right and the cartridge case 543 +on the left. + +Mr. EISENBERG. This was prepared by you or under your supervision? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman? + +Representative BOGGS. It may be admitted. + +(The item referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 559 and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, that is marked on the left C-14, and on the right, +C-6. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And the left-hand photograph is a photograph of what? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Of the cartridge case 543. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That is the actual fired case? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it shows just a portion of the primer, and a +very small portion of the firing-pin impression. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And the right-hand side of that photograph, marked C-6? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It is a test cartridge case, fired in the rifle Exhibit +139. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What is the magnification, Mr. Frazier? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Approximately 100 diameters. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And is that magnification equal on both sides of the +picture? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you make your identification of Exhibit 543, that is +the identification of that exhibit as having been fired in the rifle +139, on the basis of your examination under the microscope, or on the +basis of the photograph? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Under the microscope. The photograph has no relationship +whatsoever to the examination. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain that? + +Mr. FRAZIER. The examination is made microscopically through the +use of your eyes, and your eyes will record depths and shapes to +a much greater extent than can be shown in a photograph. So that +the examination and comparison is made of these irregular surfaces +mentally, rather than mechanically by any means. The photograph is +taken primarily to illustrate the types of marks found and their +location, relatively, on the specimen. + +Representative BOGGS. We will have to adjourn and come back at 2. + +(Whereupon, at 12:15 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +Afternoon Session + +TESTIMONY OF ROBERT A. FRAZIER RESUMED + + +The President's Commission reconvened at 2:10 p.m. + +Mr. McCLOY. You are still under oath, you know. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I would like to begin by clearing up a few items which +have been covered or left open during the morning session. + +First, you were going to supply us with certain figures concerning the +times which were taken by two of the Agents to fire three shots in the +first series of tests which were made for determining the accuracy of +the firing under rapid-fire conditions. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; that was at two targets. The first one I +gave you--Killion fired in 9 seconds. The other was a target marked +Cunningham and Frazier. Cunningham fired his three shots in 8 seconds +and I fired my three shots in 5.9 seconds. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now also you had made certain calculations concerning +what we have been calling the lead that had to be given to a target, +assuming various factors which were supplied to you. Do you have those +calculations now? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; the lead would amount to shooting over the +target at 175 feet, a distance of 6.7 inches, and the decimal on that +figure is not an accurate decimal because this figure relates to an +average velocity of ammunition of this type, and is concerned with a +speed of a vehicle which is also estimated, and a distance which may or +may not be exactly accurate. + +But at a ground speed of 11 miles an hour, it would be necessary to +shoot over or lead a target 6.7 inches for the bullet to hit the +intended spot on the target. At 265 feet the lead would be .51 feet, or +6.1 inches. + +I might say that the variation, that of less lead at the longer +distance, is in great part due to the fact that the target is farther +away and that the shot is more nearly in line with the direction in +which the target is moving, which would account for much of the drop in +the amount of lead. + +And, in addition, I calculated this on the basis of the fact that there +was a slight slope between the 175-foot and the 265-foot location +downwards away from the shooter, which would also tend to more nearly +cause the target to be moving in the same path as the bullet. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And did you convert those lead distances into the amount +of inches which the shooter would have to sight above the head, above +the point of the target? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Those figures I gave were the elevations or the sighting +distances above the target. The 6.7 inches vertical lead or sighting +over the target is the equivalent of leading on the ground of 1.4 feet. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And that table also shows leads at other car speeds? + +Mr. FRAZIER. This table--I could calculate them--it only shows miles +per hour translated into feet per second. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I mean, does it show various miles per hour? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it shows miles per hour in feet per second. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Without going into detail at this time, may I have +permission to introduce this table into evidence? + +Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. + +Mr. EISENBERG. This will be Commission Exhibit 560. + +(The item identified as Commission Exhibit No. 560 was received in +evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Frazier, in the construction of this table +and also in your last tests for rapid fire for this rifle, you used a +five-and-a-half second figure as a factor in your calculations, and in +your attempt at rapid fire accuracy placements. Can you give us the +source of that figure? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. You were the source of it, based on examination, +as I understood it, of a movie taken at the scene, and measurements +taken at the scene. However, I have no knowledge of the actual time. + +Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, I just wanted to establish that this is +a source that was supplied by the Commission and which is tentative, +and it is not to imply any final conclusion on the part of the FBI; is +that correct? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I hope it is taken that way, because we don't know what +the time actually was. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Another point then, which should have been covered this +morning, Mr. Frazier, in your qualifications: have you testified before +in court? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I have. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you estimate the number of times? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Approximately 400 times. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Finally, we had discussed briefly your examination +of consecutively manufactured bolt faces to see whether any two +such consecutively manufactured bolt faces were identical in their +microscopic characteristics. How many such examinations have you +performed. + +Mr. FRAZIER. I would say about four examinations of pairs of bolt faces +which have been consecutively manufactured. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And in each case the result was what? + +Mr. FRAZIER. The marks on one bolt face in no way resembled the marks +on the other bolt face. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, we were just beginning to discuss, +before the recess, Commission Exhibit 559, which is a picture, as +you described it, of Exhibit No. 543 and a test cartridge under a +microscope, and that is also known as C-6 and C-14, is that right? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you discuss, by using that picture, some of the +markings which you have seen under the microscope and on the basis of +which you made your identification? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. In the photograph I have drawn some small +circles and numbered them, those circles, correspondingly on each side +of the photograph. The purpose of the circles is not to point out all +the similarities, but to call attention to some of them and to help +orient in locating a mark on one with a mark on the opposite side of +the photograph. In general the area shown is immediately outside of +the firing pin in the bolt of the 139 rifle, on the left side of the +photograph, and Commission Exhibit 543 on the right side. + +The circles have been drawn around the dents or irregularly shaped +ridges, small bumps, and depressions on the surface of the metal in six +places on each side of the photograph. It is an examination of these +marks, and all of the marks on the face of the breech, microscopically +which permits a conclusion to be reached. The photograph itself +actually is a substitute to show only the type of marks found rather +than their nature, that is, their height, their width, or their +relationship to each other, which is actually a mental, visual, +comparison on the two specimens themselves. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Referring for a second to this mental, visual, +comparison, Mr. Frazier, would a person without firearms +training--firearms-identification training--be able to look under a +microscope and make a determination for himself concerning whether a +given cartridge case had been fired in a given weapon? + +Mr. FRAZIER. In that connection that person could look through the +microscope. He may or may not see these individual characteristics +which are present, because he does not know what to look for in the +first place, and, secondly, they are of such a nature that you have +to mentally sort them out in your mind going back and forth between +one area and the other until you form a mental picture of them in a +comparison such as this. + +If it was a different type of comparison, of parallel marks or +something of that nature, then he could see the marks, but in either +instance, without having compared hundreds and hundreds of specimens, +he would not be able to make any statement as to whether or not they +were fired from the same rifle. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Would you say that this is, then, a matter of expert +interpretation rather than a point-for-point comparison which a layman +could make? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I would say so; yes. I don't think a layman would +recognize some of the things on these cartridge cases and some shown +in the photographs as actually being significant or not significant, +because there will be things present which have nothing whatsoever to +do with the firing of the cartridge case in the gun. + +There may be a depression in the primer to begin with, and there are no +marks registered at that point as a result of the firing. Unless these +things are known to occur, someone may actually arrive at a different +conclusion, because of the absence of similar marks. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now having reference to the specific exhibit before you, +which is 559---- + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Are all the marks shown in both photographs identical? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And could you go into detail on a mark which is not +identical to explain why you would get such a result? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, for instance, between what I have drawn here as +circle 4 and circle 5, there is a slanting line from the upper left +to the lower right on C-6. This line shows as a white line in the +photograph. + +On the other side there is a rough, very rough ridge which runs through +there, having an entirely different appearance from the relatively +sharp line on C-6. The significant part of that mark is the groove in +between, rather than the sharp edge of the mark, because the sharp +corner could be affected by the hardness of the metal or the irregular +surface of the primer and the amount of pressure exerted against +it, pressing it back against the face of the bolt, at the time the +cartridges were fired. So that you would never expect all the marks +on one cartridge case to be identical with all the marks on the other +cartridge case. + +In fact, you would expect many differences. But the comparison is made +on the overall pattern, contour, and nature of the marks that are +present. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Back on the record. + +Mr. Frazier, could you discuss or characterize those points which you +have circled on Commission Exhibit 559, starting from the top? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Number 1 circle is drawn around a depression in the metal +of irregular shape. I might say that number 1 shows on the right side +of the photograph, and only half of it shows on the left side because +of the relative position of the two cartridge cases in the photograph. + +Number 2 is a circle drawn around a long line which extends obliquely +across each cartridge case from the upper left to the lower right. The +long line itself is a means of orienting the cartridge cases one with +the other, but the circle is drawn around a break in that line in the +form of a very small hump or an absence of metal which shows up as an +actual break in the long line. + +Number 3 again is a depression between two grooves, which is rather +similar in shape. I cannot tell you how deep it is because the +photograph only shows two dimensions. But on the cartridge cases it has +a very characteristic depth to it, which is readily apparent. + +It is formed by two parallel lines extending from the upper left to the +lower, towards the lower right, with the depression in between, and +again one side of the depression is formed by a small raised area in +the primer metal which is seen in each photograph as a conical, almost +a conical-shaped bump or raised area. + +Number 4 is another raised portion on the photograph. In connection +with 4, I would like to point out that a portion of this bump has +been erased from the test cartridge case on the left-hand side of the +photograph, the erasure caused by the turning of the bolt of the weapon +while being pressed against the primer, which has smoothed off some of +the protruding rough areas on the primer. + +Number 5 is a horizontal ridge which has two depressions, one on the +top and one on the bottom, shown on both sides of the photograph, and +number 6 is a wishbone type of ridge, a wide ridge which divides into +two smaller ridges on the left-hand edge, and in the middle of the +dividing lines, the forked lines, is a small dent or raised portion. +Those six which I have marked are only portions of those shown in the +photograph, and of course the photograph does not show the entire +surface of the primer. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Were you able to find identifying marks on the brass as +well as the primer on this cartridge case? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No; I did not notice any marks on the brass portions +outside of the primer. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is that typical of cartridge-case identification? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Generally that is true, unless there is a great pressure, +unless the brass of the cartridge case is soft, or unless the marks are +very sharp on the breech face; then they will be impressed into the +brass. + +Mr. EISENBERG. This picture represents only a portion of the primer. +You examined the entire primer to make your identification? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And found? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It would not have been necessary to examine the entire +primer necessarily, but of course we do examine the entire primer, +pick out all of the marks on the left and the right, and rotate the +cartridge cases and look at them from various angles, before arriving +at a conclusion. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you amplify the meaning of the statement that it +would not be necessary to examine the entire primer? + +Mr. FRAZIER. There are sufficient marks shown in this photograph upon +which to base an identification. In other words, it would not be +necessary to have the rest of the primer if it had been mutilated or +destroyed or something of that nature. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you also examine the firing-pin impression in the +cartridge? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you take a picture of that examination? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. Here is the photograph of the firing-pin impression, +again on the left the rifle, and on the right the cartridge case, +Commission's 543. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That bears the number C-14 and C-6, corresponding to the +numbers on Commission Exhibit 559? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it does. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you take this photograph or have it taken under your +supervision? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What is the magnification of this photograph? + +Mr. FRAZIER. 90 diameters. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is it equal on both sides? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this admitted? + +Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That will be 561. + +(The item identified as Commission Exhibit No. 561 was received in +evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you proceed with the discussion of the circled +marks on this photograph, number 561? + +Mr. FRAZIER. In the case of firing-pin impressions which are shown on +Exhibit 561, the marks result from two related sources; excuse me, not +sources, but from two related causes, one being the force given to the +firing pin driving it into the primer to set off the cartridge, and +the second being the force of the powder charge inside the cartridge +being driven back--driving the primer back against the firing pin at +the same time, so that the metal of the primer is caused to flow or be +stamped by the firing pin and pressed against by the gases, so that any +irregularities in the firing pin will be impressed into the primer of +the cartridge case. + +Number 1 consists of a double horizontal line, one a fairly wide coarse +line at the top. Immediately under that approximately one-eighth of an +inch is a fairly fine horizontal line. + +Circled and marked number 2 is a very coarse, wide ridge, very short +in length, approximately one-half an inch, and an eighth to a quarter +of an inch in height. This ridge is formed by two grooves, a straight +groove across the top, and a curved or crescent-shaped groove across +the bottom. + +Number 3 is a circle drawn around two small raised areas in the primer +metal separated by a depression. + +Number 4 is a section from a large ridge across the metal of the +primer, which has a break in its surface in the lower portion of the +circle, and immediately above the break is a groove, and immediately +above that again is another ridge which is at a little steeper angle +upwards to the left. + +Number 5 is a depression, is a portion of a depression appearing at +the bottom of the circle with a very short ridge running horizontally +across the circle. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Again there are dissimilar marks on these two pictures, +Mr. Frazier? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; there are, for the same reason, that metal does not +flow the same in every instance, and it will not be impressed to the +same depth and to the same amount, depending on the type of metal, the +blow that is struck, and the pressures involved. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is your identification made therefore on the basis +of the presence of similarities, as opposed to the absence of +dissimilarities? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, that is not exactly right. The identification is made +on the presence of sufficient individual microscopic characteristics +so that a very definite pattern is formed and visualized on the two +surfaces. + +Dissimilarities may or may not be present, depending on whether there +have been changes to the firing pin through use or wear, whether the +metal flows are the same, and whether the pressures are the same or not. + +So I don't think we can say that it is an absence of dissimilarities, +but rather the presence of similarities. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Any further questions on this cartridge case? + +Mr. McCLOY. No. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, you have testified also that you identified +the cartridge case which is Exhibit 544 as having been fired from this +rifle, in this rifle, to the exclusion of all others. Did you take a +photograph of the comparison that you made under the microscope of +number 544? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. I again took two photographs, one of the breech-face +or bolt-face marks, and one of the firing-pin marks. + +Mr. EISENBERG. This exhibit which I am holding is a picture of the +breech-face marks? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And was that taken by you or under your supervision? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And the magnification here is what? + +Mr. FRAZIER. 90 diameters. + +Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this admitted, Mr. Chairman? + +Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That will be number 562, Mr. Reporter. + +(The item described as Commission Exhibit No. 562 was received in +evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you discuss the markings on this picture, Mr. +Frazier? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. In Commission Exhibit 562, there is again the +vertical dividing line which is the top of the prism in the microscope +which divides your view. On the left hand side is a portion of the +primer and a portion of the head of the test cartridge case from +Exhibit 139. On the right side of the photograph is a portion of the +surface of the primer and a portion of the firing-pin impression of the +cartridge case, Commission Exhibit 544. + +To assist in pointing out on the photograph some of the areas where +individual microscopic characteristics are present, I have had circles +drawn, circling at the top, number 1, an oval-shaped depression in the +metal, having an irregularly shaped or wavy ridge across the bottom of +the circle. Immediately below that is another ridge which has a flat +top, and is more or less of a diamond shape. + +Number 3 circle is over a very coarse, wide ridge separated by two +fairly deep grooves on each side. + +Number 4 circle is over a conical-shaped raised portion on the primer +which represents a dent in the metal of the bolt face, and number 5 +again is a raised area on the primer which is a portion of a ridge. +In this instance this is more or less of a compound ridge which runs +horizontally with a small break in it pointing down toward the lower +left. + +Mr. McCLOY. Is that same break apparent in the left hand photograph? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it is. Looking very closely and right at the +hairline, you can see the break in the ridge where it forms more or +less of a =Y=. The actual connecting point is not present, but you can +see the portion of the ridge as it heads towards the horizontal ridge. +The hairline has separated that portion of it. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Would you call these marks strongly characteristic +marks, Mr. Frazier? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes; very characteristic. They are primarily +characteristic because of their irregular shape. If they had been +regular in shape, it wouldn't have meant nearly as much as it does to +have the irregular rough surfaces and contours of the marks. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I think you have identified the next picture I am +holding as having been taken by you? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was. That is a 70-diameter magnification +photograph of Exhibit 544 on the right, and the test from the rifle on +the left. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And this bears the numbers C-14 and C-7, and is a +firing-pin photograph? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. May this firing-pin mark photograph be admitted, Mr. +Chairman? + +Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That is 563. + +(The item was numbered 563, and was received in evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you review that photograph, Mr. Frazier? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. In Exhibit 563 the test cartridge case +representing the rifle is on the left side of the photograph, and shows +most of the firing-pin impression in that cartridge case. Five circles +have been drawn over towards the right-hand edge of the firing-pin +impression, and five similarly located circles have been drawn over the +area at the right-hand edge of the firing-pin impression of Exhibit 544. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Which is actually the left-hand side of the right-hand +part of the picture? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It would be--that is right; at the dividing line, the +circles on 544 are drawn close to the dividing line, which shows only a +very small portion of the firing pin of that cartridge case. + +Beginning with number 1, it has a gently sloping ridge running from +upper left toward lower right in each instance, with a break in the +ridge contour at the middle in the form of an extension upwards toward +the top of the photograph. + +In number 2 there is a circle drawn around the end of a very long line +in the left-hand side of the photograph. The circle is drawn to show a +=Y=-shaped break in this line located on both cartridge cases. + +Number 3 is a photograph of an irregular-shaped raised portion on the +firing-pin impression, which is very difficult to describe in words. + +Number 4 is a groove extending from upper right to lower left which +has a break in its lower side to allow a horizontal groove to come in +towards the main groove. The lower portion of that groove coming in +from the lower side is in the form of a crescent-shaped ridge, which +starts horizontally from the left and then falls off towards the lower +right-hand side of the photograph. + +The circle, number 5, is again a =Y=-shaped or wishbone-shaped ridge, +with a horizontal bar on the right, and then extending ridges upward +toward the left and downward to the left. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Again, are these firing-pin marks what you would call +strongly characteristic? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I would say so. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Does the firing pin give any evidence of having been +altered subsequent to the original manufacture? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; only in an accidental sort of way, that is, very +fine scratches which may have been caused by firing or dirt on a +cartridge or something which may have scratched the firing pin. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Are firing-pin marks usually as characteristic of a +given cartridge case as the primer marks? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I would say they are as characteristic. However, +they may not always be as evident, they may not be seen as readily. +However, they are just as characteristic. + +Mr. McCLOY. Just to repeat again, what is this side of this picture? +What does this represent? + +Mr. FRAZIER. That represents the rifle cartridge. + +Mr. McCLOY. The rifle cartridge itself? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. And this on the right? + +Mr. FRAZIER. This is one of the three cartridge cases recovered from +the building, Exhibit 544. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, you fired two test cartridges in the rifle, +is that correct? + +Mr. FRAZIER. We fired several test cartridge cases. These two are the +ones that were used in the comparisons. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you fire several for possible comparison purposes, +or only two for possible comparison purposes? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Those we fired were in the time-fire test and we retained +some of those for possible use in comparing, but it was not necessary +to use them, actually. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you use both of these test cartridge cases in the +photographs, or only one of them? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I could not tell by these photographs. We did not make any +distinction when we were comparing tests with the evidence as to which +test cartridge case we were using. + +Mr. EISENBERG. When you made your selection among cartridge cases to +select the items which would be used as test cases for comparison +purposes, were the items you rejected much different from those you +selected? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No. The marks were generally the same on all of them. +Those we used in this comparison were two tests which we fired on +November 23d and used them in our tests--made our examination, our +identification. + +Later on we fired accuracy tests and speed tests and retained some of +those cartridge cases, but they were not necessarily retained for test +purposes, for identification of the weapon, but merely as a result of +the other tests that were made. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you just as easily have used other of the items +from your original November twenty---- + +Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes; yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Getting to the last cartridge case, Exhibit 545, did you +take a photograph of the exhibit together with the test case under the +microscope after making your identification? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I did. This photograph shows that cartridge case 545 +on the right, and the test cartridge case from the rifle, 139, on the +left. + +Mr. EISENBERG. This is marked on the right C-38 and on the left C-14? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Again this is a photograph taken by you or under your +supervision? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And that is of the primer? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it is. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And you have a second photograph here also, marked C-14 +and C-38, also taken by you or under your supervision? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And this is of the markings of the firing pin? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it is. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you give us the magnification first of the +primer-markings photograph? + +Mr. FRAZIER. That is 100 diameters enlargement on the primer, and on +the firing-pin it is 80 diameters. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now in all the cases of the photographs you have given +us, the magnifications are equal on both sides, are they? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; they are. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have these admitted into evidence? + +Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted. + +Mr. EISENBERG. They will be 564 and 565. + +(The items, identified as Commission Exhibits Nos. 564 and 565, were +received in evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you discuss the photograph, Exhibit 564 please, +Mr. Frazier? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Exhibit 564 is again, a portion of the primer of the +cartridge case fired by me in the rifle number 139 appearing on the +left side of the vertical dividing line through the center of the +photograph, and on the right side a portion of the surface of the +cartridge case, Exhibit 545, showing its primer and the marks on it. + +In the photograph four circles, or portions of circles, have been +drawn, circling some of the areas where individual microscopic +characteristics are found which permitted identifying the two cartridge +cases as having been fired in the same weapon. + +In the upper circle are again two ridges separated by a groove, the +lower right-hand end of which is blocked by a raised portion in the +metal of the primer. + +Circle number 2 is again a depression bounded on the top by a long +sloping groove, sloping from the upper left subsequently to the lower +right. + +In circle number 3 there is a series of ridges running horizontally +across the photograph. The lowest of these three ridges is a rather +wide round-topped ridge. + +Circle number 4 shows the left-hand side of a figure which you could +roughly call a Z in the primer, which consists of a horizontal or +nearly horizontal line running from left to right which meets a second +line running from right down to the left, which again meets a third +line which runs from the left to the right. This is shown in both +photographs as the three lines which form the shape of a Z on the +primer. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, on this photograph there is shown a mark +at approximately 3 o'clock on the left-hand side of the picture, and +9 o'clock on the right-hand side, and the marks seem to be different +in the two pictures, being broader on the left-hand, C-14, than on the +right, C-38. Could you explain the genesis of the difference? It seems +to extend further down. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Approximately in the center of the photograph where the +two images meet, there is a scraped area which is the result of the +surface of the metal of the bolt scraping the surface of the primer as +the bolt was turned in opening the bolt to extract the cartridge. + +On the test cartridge case, this area is much broader and coarser +because the bolt was pressing more tightly against the primer when it +was turned. On the evidence cartridge case, the marks are relatively +fine, separated, and even show portions of the surface of the primer +in between the circular marks left by the rotating bolt. The reason is +that this primer was not being pressed as tightly against the bolt at +the time it was turned. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Would that be due to differences in the construction of +the cartridge--the two cartridges? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It could be differences in the cartridge, but primarily it +would be a difference in the amount of setback of the cartridge against +the bolt at the time it was fired. + +If a cartridge is slightly away from the bolt when it is fired, the +primer is blown back out of the cartridge. As the pressure builds up, +the cartridge then moves back and reseats the primer in the primer +pocket. The manner in which that movement of the primer out and back in +is accomplished determines how tightly the primer will bear against the +face of the breach after the cartridge has been fired. + +It could be that, and it could be just a slight difference in the +hardness of the metal of the primer which caused this one to flow back +more and be marked more. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you discuss Exhibit No. 565? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; in Commission Exhibit No. 565 is shown the +firing-pin impressions of the test cartridge case from the 139 rifle +on the left and the cartridge case, 545, on the right, with a dividing +line through the middle separating the primer of one cartridge case +from the primer of the other. + +No circles have been drawn around this photograph because the marks +shown are marks of an abraded area on the firing pin, and are more or +less parallel and formed parallel patterns, so that the eye can follow +from one line across to the opposite side of the photograph. + +In this area shown of the firing pin of the weapon, there was a small +scraped area which left these microscopic ridges and grooves shown +on the left photograph, and also reproduced in the 545 primer or +firing-pin impression on the right side of the photograph. + +Mr. McCLOY. State for me again what is on the left side? What is this +C-14? + +Mr. FRAZIER. This is the rifle cartridge case, the test cartridge case. + +Mr. McCLOY. The test rifle? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; the cartridge case which I fired in 139. + +Mr. McCLOY. In 139. And the one on the right? + +Mr. FRAZIER. This the cartridge case from the building, Exhibit 545. + +Mr. McCLOY. Which was found in the building? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Found in the building. + +Mr. McCLOY. On all of these on the left is it always the same---- + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; on all of the photographs we have discussed so +far. + +Mr. McCLOY. I just wanted to make that clear. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, it appears to the eye that only a portion +of this is in focus. Is that correct? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Only a portion of the entire photograph is in focus, yes, +and that is the area where these individual marks appear, occur. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; the reason being the outer area, the area up to +the edge of the firing-pin impression is considerably higher, and the +microscope does not have the depth of focus to focus on a very deep +groove or depression such as the firing pin at the bottom of it and +still maintain the top in focus. + +The firing pin is circular, I should say, hemispherical in shape, so +that it leaves a cup-shaped impression of it--only one portion of it +can be in focus at the same time; the other part being either higher or +lower will be out of focus. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, I now hand you Commission Exhibit 399, +which, for the record, is a bullet, and also for the record, it is +a bullet which was found in the Parkland Hospital following the +assassination. Are you familiar with this exhibit? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. This is a bullet which was delivered to me in +the FBI laboratory on November 22, 1963 by Special Agent Elmer Todd of +the FBI Washington Field Office. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Does that have your mark on it? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it does. + +Mr. EISENBERG. The bullet is in the same condition as it was when you +received it? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; except for the marking of my initials and the +other examiners. There is a discoloration at the nose caused apparently +by mounting this bullet in some material which stained it, which was +not present when received, and one more thing on the nose is a small +dent or scraped area. At this area the spectographic examiner removed a +small quantity of metal for analysis. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you prepare the bullet in any way for examination? +That is, did you clean it or in any way alter it? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it was not necessary. The bullet was clean and it +was not necessary to change it in any way. + +Mr. EISENBERG. There was no blood or similar material on the bullet +when you received it? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Not any which would interfere with the examination, no, +sir. Now there may have been slight traces which could have been +removed just in ordinary handling, but it wasn't necessary to actually +clean blood or tissue off of the bullet. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you examine this exhibit to determine whether it had +been fired in Exhibit 139? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And what was your conclusion? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It was. Exhibit 399 was fired in the rifle 139. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That is to the exclusion of all other rifles? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe the types of markings which are +generated onto a bullet, as opposed to those which are generated onto a +cartridge case? + +Mr. FRAZIER. A bullet when it is fired picks up the marks of the barrel +of the weapon. These marks consist of rifling marks of the lands and +the grooves, the spiral grooves in the barrel, and, in addition, the +abrasion marks or rubbing marks which the bullet picks up due to the +friction between the barrel and the surface of the copper jacket on the +bullet, or if it is a lead bullet, with the lead. + +Mr. McCLOY. You said the marks of the groove. You mean the marks of the +groove or the marks of the lands? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Both, sir; both are present. In this barrel there are +four lands and four grooves. Each of the raised portions in the barrel +will be impressed into the surface of the bullet causing four--we call +them land impressions--on the bullet, and, in between, four groove +impressions. + +Mr. EISENBERG. How are you able to conclude that a given bullet was +fired in a given weapon to the exclusion of all other weapons, Mr. +Frazier? + +Mr. FRAZIER. That is based again upon the microscopic marks left on the +fired bullets and those marks in turn are based upon the barrel from +which the bullets are fired. + +The marks in the barrel originate during manufacture. They originate +through use of the gun, through accidental marks resulting from +cleaning, excessive cleaning, of the weapon, or faulty cleaning. + +They result from corrosion in the barrel due to the hot gases and +possibly corrosive primer mixtures in the cartridges used, and +primarily again they result from wear, that is an eroding of the barrel +through friction due to the firing of cartridges, bullets through it. + +In this particular barrel the manufacturer's marks are caused by the +drill which drills out the barrel, leaving certain marks from the +drilling tool. Then portions of these marks are erased by a rifling +tool which cuts the four spiral grooves in the barrel and, in turn, +leaves marks themselves, and in connection with those marks of course, +the drilling marks, being circular in shape, there is a tearing away of +the surface of the metal, so that a microscopically rough surface is +left. + +Then removing part of those marks with a separate tool causes that +barrel to assume an individual characteristic, a character all of its +own. + +In other words, at that time you could identify a bullet fired from +that barrel as having been fired from the barrel to the exclusion of +all other barrels, because there is no system whatever to the drilling +of the barrel. The only system is in the rifling or in the cutting +of the grooves, and in this case of rifle barrels, even the cutters +wear down as the barrels are made, eventually of course having to be +discarded or re-sharpened. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Have you examined consecutively manufactured barrels to +determine whether their microscopic characteristics are identical? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I have three different sets of, you might say, +paired barrels, which have been manufactured on the same machine, one +after the other, under controlled conditions to make them as nearly +alike as possible, and in each case fired bullets from those barrels +could not be identified with each other; in fact, they looked nothing +at all alike as far as individual microscopic characteristics are +concerned. Their rifling impressions of course would be identical, but +the individual marks there would be entirely different. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, did you determine the weight of the +exhibit--that is, 399? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Exhibit 399 weighs 158.6 grains. + +Mr. EISENBERG. How much weight loss does that show from the original +bullet weight? + +Mr. FRAZIER. We measured several standard bullets, and their weights +varied, which is a normal situation, a portion of a grain, or two +grains, from 161 grains--that is, they were all in the vicinity of 161 +grains. One weighed--160.85, 161.5, 161.1 grains. + +Mr. EISENBERG. In your opinion, was there any weight loss? + +Mr. FRAZIER. There did not necessarily have to be any weight loss to +the bullet. There may be a slight amount of lead missing from the +base of the bullet, since it is exposed at the base, and the bullet +is slightly flattened; there could be a slight weight loss from the +end of the bullet, but it would not amount to more than 4 grains, +because 158.6 is only a grain and a half less than the normal weight, +and at least a 2 grain variation would be allowed. So it would be +approximately 3 or 4 grains. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Were the markings on the bullet at all defaced? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; they were, in that the bullet is distorted by having +been slightly flattened or twisted. + +Mr. EISENBERG. How material would you call that defacement? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It is hardly visible unless you look at the base of the +bullet and notice it is not round. + +Mr. EISENBERG. How far does it affect your examination for purposes of +identification? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It had no effect on it at all. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain why? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Because it did not mutilate or distort the original +microscopic marks beyond the point where you could recognize the +pattern and find the same pattern of marks on one bullet as were +present on the other. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you take a photograph of your comparison of Exhibit +399 with a test bullet? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. This photograph was prepared by you or under your +supervision? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you tell us the magnification? + +Mr. FRAZIER. 70 diameters. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And this reads C-14 on the left and C-l on the right? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it does. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have that admitted? + +Mr. McCLOY. The one on the right is the cartridge that you just---- + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. 399, yes, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. 399? + +Mr. FRAZIER. And the one on the left is the test bullet. + +Mr. McCLOY. The test. It may be admitted. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That will be 566, Mr. Reporter. + +(The item so described was identified as Commission Exhibit No. 566 and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, could you discuss photograph 566? + +Mr. FRAZIER. This exhibit shows on the left side of a dividing vertical +line representing the top of the prism in the microscope which was used +for the comparison, a portion of the surface from the test bullet from +the rifle, 139, and on the right side of the photograph a portion of +the surface of the bullet, 399. + +The marks shown in the photograph are on an area representing +approximately one-half of one groove impression in the barrel of the +weapon, which extends from approximately 2 inches up from the bottom +of the photograph, being the edge of one land impression, and the +beginning of a groove impression, up to the top of the photograph, that +area being approximately one-half or possibly two-thirds of a groove +impression. + +The microscopic marks which were used in the identification, after +being observed through the microscope and making the comparison and +the identification, were photographed, and this photograph shows a +portion of the surface of that bullet, showing parallel lines extending +from the left side of the photograph coming up to the hairline +and continuing across on the right side of the photograph, these +microscopic marks being very fine grooves and ridges on the surface +of the bullet, very coarse ridges on the surface of the bullet, and +inbetween size scratches left on the bullet by the barrel of the weapon. + +There will be some marks which will not show up on one bullet which +show up on the other bullet, and similarly some marks on the other +bullet, in this case Exhibit 399, will not be present on the test +bullet, that stiuation being due to a number of causes. + +One, the bullets could have originally been slightly different in +diameter, the larger bullet, of course, picking up more marks during +its passage through the barrel. + +Secondly, the two bullets may not have expanded exactly the same, due +to the pressure of the powder behind them as they passed through the +barrel. + +Third, with each bullet fired through the barrel, there are certain +changes that occur due to the wearing away of the surface of the metal +of the barrel, so that after a series of shots through a particular +barrel, it would be expected that the pattern of microscopic marks +produced by it would change. + +The identification is based on areas such as this on the bullet and the +comparison of the microscopic marks around the entire surface of the +bullet which bears individual characteristics. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, running through the middle of the exhibit +there seem to be finer lines on the right-hand side than on the left. +Could you explain that, the reason why the lines come out with more +detail or that there are more lines on the right side than on the left? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Those marks could be the result of the bullet striking +some object after it was fired, or they could be the result of changes +having taken place in the barrel. + +For instance, even a piece of coarse cloth, leather or some other +object could have polished the surface of the metal slightly and left +infinitesimal scratches which, when enlarged sufficiently, actually +look like marks on the bullet. + +Mr. EISENBERG. In making your examination of the bullet, what was the +relative attention you gave to the broader lines we see in this picture +and the finer lines such as those we have just been referring to? + +Mr. FRAZIER. The broader lines would be more characteristic or they +are looked for most, because they change less rapidly than the fine +lines. For instance, firing two or three bullets through a barrel could +completely erase microscopic marks which would appear as fine lines in +a certain area, whereas the coarser lines and grooves on the bullet +would be maintained over a series of fired bullets. + +Mr. EISENBERG. In evaluating these lines, do you examine the lines +individually, or are you interested in their relationship with one +another in addition? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It is a combination. You actually examine each mark and +each line individually, but it is a mental process rather than a matter +of adding one line to another. It is a process of looking at a series +of lines and you actually notice that they are composed of round-topped +ridges, =V=-topped ridges, flat-topped ridges, and it is a mental +process of looking at the whole pattern rather than the individual +marks. + +Mr. EISENBERG. All these lines that we are looking at lie within a +groove, within one groove, did you say? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; except for the lower portion of the photograph, +there is a portion of a land impression showing one rather deep groove +running across the bottom of the picture, and a series of grooves shown +next to the edge of the land impression. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Will you identify the circular-looking mark on the +right-hand side of the picture? + +Mr. FRAZIER. That could be either a flaw in the bullet, the metal +itself, before it was fired, or could be the result of the bullet +having struck some object after it was fired and before it stopped, or +as it stopped, or could be the result of having been dropped or roughly +handled. + +This particular mark there would be invisible practically speaking to +the naked eye when looking at the bullet. + +Mr. McCLOY. The mark to which you refer is the one on the right-hand +side of the exhibit toward the top, about an inch and a half from the +center line? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is that about 11 o'clock? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have another photograph, Mr. Frazier, of this? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I now hand you a bullet fragment, what appears to be a +bullet fragment, in a pill box which is labeled Jacket and Lead Q-2, +and it has certain initials on it. For the record, this was found--this +bullet fragment was found--in the front portion of the car in which +the President was riding. I ask you whether you are familiar with this +object. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I am. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is your mark on it? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you examine this? Is this a bullet fragment, Mr. +Frazier? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. This consists of a piece of the jacket portion +of a bullet from the nose area and a piece of the lead core from under +the jacket. + +Mr. EISENBERG. How were you able to conclude it is part of the nose +area? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Because of the rifling marks which extend part way up the +side, and then have the characteristic leading edge impressions and no +longer continue along the bullet, and by the fact that the bullet has a +rounded contour to it which has not been mutilated. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you examine this bullet to determine whether it had +been fired from Exhibit 139 to the exclusion of all other weapons? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What was your conclusion? + +Mr. FRAZIER. This bullet fragment was fired in this rifle, 139. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, did you weigh this fragment? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I did. It weighs 44.6 grains. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you take a photograph of the fragment as compared +with a test bullet? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. This photograph is labeled C-14 on the left and C-2 +on the right, and it is a photograph taken by you or under your +supervision? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. C-14 being the test bullet? + +Mr. FRAZIER. The test bullet from 139. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And what is the magnification of this photograph? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It would be 70 diameters. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may that be admitted? + +Mr. McCLOY. C-2 is the actual fragment? + +Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. + +Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can we go back a second? I don't think I asked for +admission of the bullet fragment which Mr. Frazier identified. May I +have that admitted? + +Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. + +Mr. EISENBERG. The bullet fragment will be 567 and the photograph just +identified by Mr. Frazier will be 568. + +Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. + +(The items described, identified as Commission Exhibits Nos. 567 and +568, were received in evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, could you discuss this photograph with us? + +Mr. FRAZIER. In Commission Exhibit 568 is again the vertical dividing +line through the center of the photograph, with the test bullet from +the rifle 139 on the left, and the bullet, Exhibit 567, on the right. +Am I right in that the bullet jacket fragment is 567? + +Mr. EISENBERG. I think I put it down here. That is right, 567. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Approximately two-thirds of a groove impression from each +of the two bullets is shown, with a very small portion at the bottom +of the photograph of a land impression. The individual microscopic +characteristics which were used in the comparison, and on which the +identification was made, were photographed and are as shown in this +photograph. However, this photograph did not enter into the actual +conclusion reached. The microscopic characteristics appear as parallel +horizontal lines extending from the test bullet on the left to the +bullet Exhibit 567 on the right. + +The marks used in the identification are grooves, paired lines, a +series of ridges up and down the hairline on one bullet, and they also +appear on the opposite side of the photograph. + +In one particular instance it will be seen that at the edge of the +land impression at the lower left portion of the photograph is a very +definite paired ridge which appears on the right side of the photograph +but in a slightly different area. + +The reason for the difference in the location of this paired line on +the exhibit, Exhibit 567, can be explained by the fact that this is a +jacket fragment, that it was torn from the rest of the bullet, and is +greatly mutilated, distorted, and bears only a very few areas suitable +for identification purposes because of that fact. + +The distortion has foreshortened the area of the jacket fragment, 567, +to the extent that over this approximately one-tenth-of-an-inch surface +represented in this photograph, these lines do not coincide exactly on +the lower part of the photograph when they are lined up on the upper +part of the photograph. + +Mr. EISENBERG. When you say they don't correspond exactly, do you mean +at all, or do you mean they aren't---- + +Mr. FRAZIER. I mean that the marks are present, but they do not line up +at the hairline. + +Mr. EISENBERG. But in your opinion the marks on the left are the same +as the marks on the right? + +Mr. FRAZIER. The marks on the left are the same marks as those on the +right. In the examination this is easily determined by rotating the two +bullets. As you rotate them, you can see these characteristic patterns +line up. + +Then you will notice these do not line up. But as you rotate one +bullet, you can follow the individual marks mentally and see that the +same pattern is present and you can line them up in your mind, even +though they are not actually physically lined up in the microscope. + +Mr. McCLOY. They are not lined up in the microscope because there is +mutilation on the fragment? + +Mr. EISENBERG. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. And there is no mutilation on the test cartridge? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, in the lower portion of each side of that +photograph, which I take it is the groove of the bullet, or the land +impression of the rifle--is that correct? + +Mr. FRAZIER. The land on the rifle leaves this groove on the bullet. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; the right-hand side seems to be slightly striated +while the left-hand side does not seem to be striated. Can you explain +that? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, the striae in this side are not apparent in this +photograph. I don't know whether they actually exist on the bullet or +not. You can't tell from the photograph, because they are so fine as to +possibly not show at all. + +A close examination right at the hairline shows a whole series of very +fine scratches which do not appear further away from the hairline, +and that could be very easily due to differences in the metal, as the +bullet passed down the barrel, being pressed less forcibly against the +barrel, or could also be due to the fact that at the edges of the lands +it is very often evident that hot gases from the burning powder had +passed the bullet through these cracks and actually will melt or erode +away the surface of the bullet. + +As to why they may or may not be present is difficult to say from an +examination of the photograph. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What portion of the bullet fragment provided enough +markings for purposes of identification, approximately? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I would say that one-fourth, in this instance, one-fourth +of 567's surface was available. One-fifth to one-sixth would have been +sufficient for identification, based on the character of the marks +present. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now this portion of the fragment was an even smaller +portion of the bullet, the entire bullet, is that correct? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it was. + +Mr. EISENBERG. So when you say one-fifth and one-sixth, are you +referring now to the proportion of marks on the fragment, as opposed to +the proportion of marks you would want from an entire bullet? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No; I am referring to the proportion of marks on the +fragment which were used in the examination as compared to the total +bullet circumference which would have existed on an unmutilated bullet. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, do you feel that the amount of markings +here were sufficient to make positive identification? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Have you made identifications in the past with as few or +less markings as are present on this bullet fragment? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes; and on less, much less of an area. The character +of the marks is more important than the number of the marks. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, here you were of course unable to see +all of the lines which were present on the bullet before mutilation. +Have you ever had an occasion where you examined a bullet and saw one +portion of it which was an apparent match and then found out that the +balance of the bullet was not an apparent match? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; and if I understand your words "apparent +match," there is no such thing as an apparent match. It either is an +identification or it isn't, and until you have made up your mind, you +don't have an apparent match. We don't actually use that term in the +FBI. Unless you have sufficient marks for an identification, you cannot +say one way or the other as to whether or not two bullets were fired +from a particular barrel. + +In other words, you cannot nonidentify on the absence of similarities +any more than you can identify when you have no similarities present. + +Mr. EISENBERG. In other words, you won't make an identification unless +you feel enough marks are present to constitute a basis for a positive +identification? + +Mr. FRAZIER. That is right, and I would not report any type of +similarities unless they were sufficient for an identification, because +unless you can say one bullet was fired from the same barrel as a +second bullet, then there is room for error, and in this field of +firearms identification, we try to avoid any possible chance of error +creeping in. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Do you avoid the category of "probable" identification? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes; we never use it, never. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And why is that? + +Mr. FRAZIER. There is no such thing as a probable identification. It +either is or isn't as far as we are concerned. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And in this case it is? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It is, yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Any further questions on this bullet fragment, Mr. +Chairman? + +Mr. McCLOY. Do we have any proof in the record thus far as to where the +fragment referred to a moment ago came from? + +Mr. EISENBERG. Honestly, I am not sure. I know it will be in the record +eventually, but I have not taken that up as part of this testimony. + +Mr. McCLOY. That will be subject to further proof. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. + +Mr. McCLOY. If it is not in the record. As a result of all these +comparisons, you would say that the evidence is indisputable that the +three shells that were identified by you were fired from that rifle? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. And you would say the same thing of Commission Exhibit 399, +the bullet 399 was fired from that rifle? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. And the fragment 567---- + +Mr. FRAZIER. 567, the one we have just finished. + +Mr. McCLOY. Was likewise a portion of a bullet fired from that rifle? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. You have no doubt about any of those? + +Mr. FRAZIER. None whatsoever. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now finally in the category of bullets and bullet +fragments, I hand you what is apparently a bullet fragment, which +is in a pill box marked Q-3, and which, I state for the record, was +also found in the front portion of the President's car, and I ask you +whether you are familiar with this item, marked Q-3? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; this was submitted to me as having been found +beside the front seat of the automobile. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Your mark is on that fragment? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it is. + +Mr. EISENBERG. When did you receive that fragment, Mr. Frazier? + +Mr. FRAZIER. At 11:50 p.m., November 22, 1963, from Special Agent +Orrin Bartlett, our liaison agent with the Secret Service, in the FBI +laboratory. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And the last bullet fragment you examined, Exhibit 567, +when did you receive that? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It was received at the same time from Special Agent +Bartlett. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you examine both at that time, Mr. Frazier? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; beginning the following morning, November 23. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this bullet fragment marked Q-3 +admitted as Commission 569? + +Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. + +(The item, identified as Commission Exhibit No. 569, was received in +evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, did you examine this bullet fragment with a +view to determining whether it had been fired from the rifle, Exhibit +139? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What was your conclusion? + +Mr. FRAZIER. This bullet fragment, Exhibit 569, was fired from this +particular rifle, 139. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Again to the exclusion of all other rifles? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you weigh this fragment, Mr. Frazier? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I did. It weighs 21.0 grains. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe the fragment? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. It consists of the base or most rearward portion of +the jacket of a metal-jacketed bullet, from which the lead core is +missing. + +Mr. EISENBERG. How can you tell that it is the most rearward portion? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It has the shape which bases of bullets have. It has the +cannelure which is located at the rear, on the portion of bullets of +this type. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you determine whether this bullet fragment, 567, and +569 are portions of the originally same bullet? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. You cannot? + +Mr. FRAZIER. There is not enough of the two fragments in unmutilated +condition to determine whether or not the fragments actually fit +together. + +However, it was determined that there is no area on one fragment, such +as 567, which would overlap a corresponding area on the base section of +569, so that they could be parts of one bullet, and then, of course, +they could be parts of separate bullets. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now 569 is without the core; is that correct? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you estimate how much weight you would add if you +had the core? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, I cannot. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Not at all? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No. I do not have the figure on the core weight. + +Mr. EISENBERG. In your opinion, is it possible that if you did make +such an estimate, the weight, the projected weight of 569 plus the +actual weight of 567 would exceed the bullet weight of the 6.5 mm. +bullet? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, no; it would not. + +Mr. EISENBERG. It would not? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It would not come even close to it, because the amount of +core is only--one-quarter inch of the bullet is all that remains at the +base, and that much core would not weigh more than 40 grains at the +most. + +Mr. EISENBERG. No cannelure shows on 567, is that correct? + +Mr. FRAZIER. That is correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, did you make a comparison photograph of 569 +with a test bullet? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. This photograph is marked C-14 on the left and C-3 on +the right; is that correct? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it is. + +Mr. EISENBERG. C-14 being the test? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, from the rifle 139, and C-3 is Exhibit 569. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And the magnification on this photograph is what, Mr. +Frazier? + +Mr. FRAZIER. 70 diameters. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And this was taken by you or under your supervision? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this admitted? + +Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. + +Mr. EISENBERG. 570. + +(The item was identified as Commission Exhibit No. 570 and was received +in evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you discuss this picture? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Commission Exhibit 570 shows a portion of the test bullet +from Exhibit 139 on the left side of the photograph, and a portion of +the bullet 569 on the right side, divided by a hairline. + +The photograph was taken of the microscopic marks, examined through the +comparison microscope, consisting of very fine and very coarse grooves, +or scratches, or ridges, on the surface of each of the bullets as +compared with those on the other bullet. + +The photograph did not, of course, enter into the conclusion reached in +the examination, but was merely taken to demonstrate, to illustrate the +types of marks present insofar as a photograph can show them. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, what portion of the Exhibit 569 was +unmutilated enough to allow you to make a comparison of its markings? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Approximately one-third. Actually, the entire base section +of the bullet was present, but approximately one-half of that base +was mutilated. On the mutilated area, either marks were destroyed +completely by striking some object, or being compressed or stretched, +or they were thrown out of relationship with each other by stretching +or compressing to the extent that they were of no value. + +So I would estimate approximately one-third of the area was present. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, when you say one-third, is this total area or +circumference? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Circumference--one-third of the circumference. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have any further pictures of any of the bullets, +Mr. Frazier? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, I do not. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, I hand you two bullets and ask whether you +are familiar with them. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I am. These are the two test bullets which I fired +from this rifle, Exhibit 139. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Do they have your mark on them? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, they do. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have these admitted as Exhibit 572? + +Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 572, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Getting back to the two bullet fragments mentioned, Mr. +Frazier, did you alter them in any way after they had been received in +the laboratory, by way of cleaning or otherwise? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; there was a very slight residue of blood or some +other material adhering, but it did not interfere with the examination. +It was wiped off to clean up the bullet for examination, but it +actually would not have been necessary. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is that true on both fragments? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. You also mentioned there was blood or some other +substance on the bullet marked 399. Is this an off-hand determination, +or was there a test to determine what the substance was? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, there was no test made of the materials. + +Mr. EISENBERG. As you examined the bullet and the two bullet fragments, +are they in the same condition now as they were when they entered your +hands? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. One other question on the cartridge cases. + +Did you examine the cartridge cases for chambering marks, extraction +marks, or ejection marks? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I did, but I did not make any comparisons of either +extractor or ejector marks or chambering marks, since the purpose of my +examination was primarily to determine whether they were fired in this +rifle, and such marks would not have assisted in that determination. +They were not necessary because they would have indicated only that it +may have been loaded into and extracted from the weapon, whereas the +marks which I found served to identify it as having been fired in the +weapon, actually. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, unless you have further questions on the +cartridge cases or bullets, I would like to move on to another subject. + +Mr. McCLOY. From your examination of the actual bullets that you have +been told were fired on the day of the assassination from this rifle, +and from your--how many separate bullets do you identify? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Two, at the maximum--possibly three, if these two jacket +fragments came from different bullets. If they came from one bullet, +then there would be a maximum of the whole bullet 399 and this bullet +in two parts. + +Mr. McCLOY. And you cannot tell whether these two particles came from +one bullet or two separate ones? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. When you say "two at the maximum," do you mean two at +the minimum? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I meant at least two bullets. + +Mr. McCLOY. There were at least two different bullets? + +Mr. FRAZIER. At least two, yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, can you give an estimate of the total +number of bullets fired in the various tests made with this rifle? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Approximately 60 rounds. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And were all of these rounds 6.5 mm. Western +Mannlicher-Carcano ammunition? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you have any misfires? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you find the ammunition dependable? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Very dependable. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you think of any reason why someone might think this +is an undependable type of ammunition? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; The Western Cartridge Co. has always +manufactured, in my experience, very dependable ammunition. There is +other ammunition on the market available for this particular rifle in +this caliber, which in my opinion is undependable or would be a very +poor quality of ammunition. It may have been a confusion between that +other ammunition of the same caliber and this Western ammunition. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you elaborate as to what that other ammunition +consists of? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Certain companies have imported into the United States +cartridges of foreign manufacture. Those I have seen for this rifle +were of Italian manufacture. They have pulled the military bullets from +those cartridges and reloading hunting type or soft-point bullets into +the cartridges. In doing that, they did not, apparently, take any great +pains in loading them. Occasionally, the mouth of the case would be +bent over and the bullet driven in right on top of the bent case. + +I have seen split cartridge cases, even before they were fired, badly +corroded cartridge cases. All in all, the ammunition is of generally +poor overall appearance, and it has been reported to me that it was of +poor firing quality. + +I have not fired any of it, personally. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Have you heard anything about the dependability of the +Italian-made ammunition, unreloaded? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; not as such. + +However, I have experienced the examination of Italian ammunition of +various years of manufacture and, of course, various makes. And I think +it is rather poor quality in this particular caliber, primarily due to +the very short seating depth to which bullets of this type are seated +in the cartridge, which causes the bullets to loosen very readily in +the cartridge case even before they are loaded into a clip or fired. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you notice, Mr. Frazier, in your examination of +targets and so forth, whether there was any marked degree of yaw or +tumbling by the bullets? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No evidence at all of tumbling or yaw. + +Mr. EISENBERG. In your opinion, would the firing of 60 shots materially +affect the microscopic characteristics of Exhibit 139? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It would change them, if not completely, practically +completely. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, some witnesses to the assassination +have stated that they heard more than three shots. Can you think of +any reason why they might have come to that conclusion--in terms of +acoustical properties of high-velocity bullets? + +Mr. FRAZIER. They could very readily have heard other sounds which +could be confused with shots. It is apparent--it is obvious with any +weapon in which the bullet travels faster than the speed of sound, +which is 1,127, approximately, feet per second, the bullet itself will +cause a shock wave or a sound wave, and a person standing in front +of that weapon will hear the report of the bullet passing and then +subsequently the sound will reach them of the cartridge explosion, +which could very easily be confused with two shots. There will be the +crack of the bullet going by, overhead or in the vicinity, and then the +sound of the shot. + +So that you would hear for three shots actually six reports, which +could have caused some confusion. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, I now hand you a bullet in a pill box which +is marked Q-188. I ask you whether you are familiar with this bullet. + +I would like to state for the record that this bullet was found in the +Walker residence after the attempted assassination of General Walker. + +Mr. McCLOY. As far as you know, we have no proof of that yet? + +Mr. EISENBERG. That is right. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I am familiar with it. I have made an examination of +that bullet. + +With reference to this bullet, I could furnish everything except the +weight of it. + +Mr. EISENBERG. All right. Just taking one thing at a time. You are +familiar with it. Does it have your marking on it? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it does. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this admitted as 573? + +Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. + +(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 573, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. When did you receive this bullet, do you recall, Mr. +Frazier? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I would need to refer to my notes for that. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you supply that for us at a subsequent time? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And the weight. + +Is this bullet in the same condition as it was when you received it in +the laboratory, Mr. Frazier? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it is. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you clean it up or in any way alter it when you +received it? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, did you examine this bullet to determine +whether it was or might have been fired in Exhibit 139? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I did. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And what was your conclusion? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I was unable to reach a conclusion as to whether or +not it had been fired from this rifle. The conclusion went slightly +further than that, in that we determined that the general rifling +characteristics of the rifle 139 are of the same type as those found +on the bullet, Exhibit 573, and, further, on this basis, that the +bullet could have been fired from the rifle on the basis of its land +and groove impressions. And, second, that all of the remaining physical +characteristics of this bullet, 573, are the same as Western 6.5mm. +Mannlicher-Carcano bullets of the type normally loaded in ammunition +made for this rifle, 139. However, the mutilation of the nose of the +bullet has eliminated the length characteristics, and it cannot be +definitely stated that Exhibit 573 is in fact a Western Cartridge +Co. product, but all of the remaining characteristics of base shape, +distance from the base to the cannelure, the width of the cannelure, +and the overall appearance, coloration, and so forth, are similar to +Western ammunition. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is this a jacketed bullet? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it is a copper-alloy jacketed bullet having a lead +core. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you think of any reason why someone might have +called this a steel-jacketed bullet? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; except that some individuals commonly refer to +rifle bullets as steel-jacketed bullets, when they actually in fact +just have a copper-alloy jacket. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe the general rifling characteristics +which you referred to? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. They consist of impressions from four lands and +grooves. The bullet is mutilated on a portion of its surface. However, +it can be determined that there were four land impressions and four +groove impressions originally on this bullet. + +The width of the land impression is 7/100ths of an inch, that is 0.07 +inch--whereas the width of the groove impression is 0.13 inch, or +13/100ths of an inch. + +The bullet is flattened so that it was not possible to measure its +diameter. However, by adding the land width to the groove width, and +multiplying by the number of lands and grooves, you can determine the +circumference of the bullet and mathematically determine its diameter, +which in this case corresponds to 6.5 mm. ammunition, or approximately +.267 inch. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What was the direction of the twist? + +Mr. FRAZIER. To the right. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you estimate how many types of rifle would +produce, on a 6.5 mm. bullet, four lands and four grooves, right +twist, with the width of lands and grooves which you established as +being those on this bullet? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Only from experience, I could say that it would be +relatively few which would agree with all of those characteristics. I +have, of course, not seen or measured all of the foreign rifles, and +therefore I could not estimate the number that there might be. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you find any miscroscopic characteristics or other +evidence which would indicate that the bullet was not fired from 139? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Were you able to determine the depth of the grooves of +the bullet? + +Mr. FRAZIER. The bullet, 573, had what appeared to be normal-depth +grooves. + +However, this bullet is completely flattened due to hitting a plaster +or cement or other hard material on one side, and the opposite side, +as a result of the flattening--has assumed a concave appearance, which +has stretched the surface in various places and changes its overall +appearance--that is the basis for actually having to state that there +were not enough unmutilated marks for identification purposes on it. + +Mr. EISENBERG. But you do conclude that this was fired from +a Mannlicher-Carcano 91/38, or a rifle with similar barrel +characteristics? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, do you have any further questions on this? + +Mr. McCLOY. When you say you were able to determine it was fired from +this type of rifle or one similar to it, that would include a number of +different kinds of rifles besides the Mannlicher-Carcano? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it could include a variety of weapons with which +I am not familiar in the foreign field. + +Mr. McCLOY. But it is definitely, according to your best judgment, a +6.5 mm. bullet? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. And the bullet, such as we find it, has now characteristics +similar to the type of bullet which was our Exhibit No. 399? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it does. Placing them side by side, the cannelure, +which is really the only physical characteristic apparent, comes to +exactly the same place on both 399 and 573, indicating that this bullet +was loaded to exactly the same depth in the cartridge--the two bullets, +both 399 and 573. + +Mr. McCLOY. I think I have no further questions. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, did any other firearms experts in the FBI +laboratory examine the three cartridge cases, the bullet, and the two +bullet fragments which you have testified as to today? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, all of the actual firearms comparisons were also made +by Charles Killion and Cortlandt Cunningham. These examinations were +made separately, that is, they made their examination individually +and separately from mine, and there was no association between their +examination and mine until both were finished. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did the three of you come to the conclusions which you +have given us today as your own conclusions? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did anyone in the FBI laboratory who examined the +evidence come to a different conclusion as to any of the evidence you +have discussed today? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is there anything you would like to add to your +testimony, Mr. Frazier? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Not with reference to this material, no. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Are you thinking of---- + +Mr. FRAZIER. I am thinking of other examinations which I made, but +which probably will come up at another time. + +Mr. EISENBERG. You are referring to examinations such as the clothing, +holes in the clothing, and the fracture in the automobile windshield? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. There will be testimony elicited at another time on +those examinations, Mr. Frazier. + +Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Frazier will be a witness in those, too? + +Mr. EISENBERG. Yes, sir. + +Mr. Specter will probably elicit that testimony. + +Mr. Chairman, or gentlemen, are there any other questions? + +Thank you very much, Mr. Frazier. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Excuse me. I have one photograph here that might be useful +in this regard, and that is of a clip showing the six cartridges loaded +into it. + +Mr. McCLOY. I think that might be a good idea. You might identify that, +to show what we mean by clips. + +Mr. EISENBERG. You have shown us photographs of a clip--the clip from +the Exhibit 139 rifle? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. One photograph loaded, and one unloaded? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. In one instance I put six cartridges in the clip and +photographed it. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you take those photographs? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Frazier, you testified that if you didn't use the clip +you would only be able to shoot one shell at a time, is that right? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; this weapon does not have the box magazine +commonly found in most military weapons which holds the cartridges +and can be reloaded one at a time, but they must remain in the clip, +or they will malfunction. The follower in the weapon will throw the +cartridges right back out of the gun. + +Mr. McCLOY. That explains it to my mind, because I know I have fired +rifles with clips and fired them without clips. But they were much more +convenient in loading. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; this one is designed---- + +Mr. McCLOY. For example, the Springfield you could load with clip or +load without a clip. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. But this one has to have a clip in order not to malfunction? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it does. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Those will be 574 and 575. + +Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted. + +(The photographs referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 574 +and 575, and received in evidence.) + +Mr. McCLOY. Thank you very much, Mr. Frazier. You have been very +helpful. + + +TESTIMONY OF RONALD SIMMONS + +Mr. EISENBERG. Our next witness will be Mr. Simmons. + +Mr. McCLOY. Would you hold up your right hand? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give in this hearing +will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help +you God? + +Mr. SIMMONS. I do. + +Mr. McCLOY. Please be seated. + +This, as you know--the constitution of the Commission and its +purpose--we want to ask you something about the firearm aspect of our +hearings, and certain characteristics of this rifle that we would like +to hear from you about, and if there is anything else you have that can +throw light on our problems. + +If you can state for the record, first, your name, and where you live. + +Mr. SIMMONS. My name is Ronald Simmons. I live near Havre de Grace, Md. + +Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Eisenberg? + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you give us your position, Mr. Simmons? + +Mr. SIMMONS. I am the Chief of the Infantry Weapons Evaluation Branch +of the Ballistics Research Laboratory of the Department of the Army. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And how long have you held this position? + +Mr. SIMMONS. This position, about four years, and previous employment +has been in these laboratories. + +Mr. EISENBERG. How long have you been working, Mr. Simmons, in the area +of evaluation of weapons? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Since 1951, in various classes of weapons. + +Since 1957, however, I have had the responsibility for the laboratories +on small arms. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Has part of it--of these--have part of these evaluations +been conducted with military rifles, Mr. Simmons? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Most of our evaluations have been associated with military +rifles. + +Mr. EISENBERG. How long altogether have you spent in this area? + +Mr. SIMMONS. In the area of rifles? + +Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. + +Mr. SIMMONS. Some experience beginning from about 1953. I have been +continuously concerned with this since 1957. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you give a rough estimate of how many weapons you +have evaluated as to accuracy? + +Mr. SIMMONS. No. We have been concerned with almost all of the +weapons which the Army has tested, either in preliminary stages or as +developmental weapons. + +Mr. EISENBERG. But your specialty is the evaluation of weapons systems, +including military rifles, and you have been engaged in this for 13 +years, as to all weapons systems, and since 1953 as to---- + +Mr. SIMMONS. Yes, that is correct. + +Mr. McCLOY. In the course of that you have examined hundreds of rifles, +though, have you not? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Well, our examination of rifles is not the detailed +engineering, design experiment which a gunsmith or a rifle expert +as such would concern himself with. We are more concerned with +establishing a framework by which we can put numbers to the performance +of military rifles in tactical employment. And this means that for a +specific--specific classes of weapons, we have had to establish, for +example, round-to-round dispersion, the accuracy with which they can be +employed, and the wounding power of the projectiles. + +Mr. McCLOY. In the course of this you have fired a great many rifles +yourself? + +Mr. SIMMONS. No, sir; I don't fire them. + +Mr. McCLOY. Somebody else fires them? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. + +Mr. McCLOY. But you make the studies in relation to the accuracy of the +weapons? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Yes, that is correct. The firing is accomplished by +employees of the development and proof services, which is the weapons +testing facility at the Aberdeen Proving Ground. + +Mr. McCLOY. Your task is primarily evaluation---- + +Mr. SIMMONS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. Of the characteristics of the rifle, particularly in terms +of its accuracy and its wounding power, killing power? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may this witness be admitted as an expert +to testify in this area? + +Mr. McCLOY. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Simmons, did you conduct a test from a machine rest, +a test of round-to-round dispersion of this weapon, or have such tests +conducted? + +Mr. SIMMONS. May I check the serial number? + +Mr. EISENBERG. I should ask first if you are familiar with this weapon. + +I have handed the witness Commission Exhibit 139. + +Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. We fired this weapon from a machine rest for +round-to-round dispersion. We fired exactly 20 rounds in this test, and +the dispersion which we measured is of conventional magnitude, about +the same that we get with our present military rifles, and the standard +deviation of dispersion is .29 mil. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That is a fraction of a degree? + +Mr. SIMMONS. A mil is an angular measurement. There are 17.7 mils to a +degree. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Do I understand your testimony to be that this rifle is +as accurate as the current American military rifles? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. As far as we can determine from bench-rest firing. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Would you consider that to be a high degree of accuracy? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Yes, the weapon is quite accurate. For most small arms, +we discover that the round-to-round dispersion is of the order of +three-tenths of a mil. We have run into some unusual ones, however, +which give us higher values, but very few which give us smaller values, +except in selected lots of ammunition. + +Mr. McCLOY. You are talking about the present military rifle--will you +designate it? + +Mr. SIMMONS. The M-14. + +Mr. McCLOY. Is it as accurate as the Springfield 1906 ammunition? + +Mr. SIMMONS. I am not familiar with the difference between the M-14 in +its accuracy and the 1906 Springfield. These are very similar in their +dispersion. + +Mr. McCLOY. At a hundred yards, what does that amount to? What is the +dispersion? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Well, at a hundred yards, one mil is 3.6 inches, and 0.3 +of that is a little more than an inch. + +Mr. EISENBERG. You tested this with what type of ammunition, Mr. +Simmons? + +Mr. SIMMONS. The ammunition was labeled Type Ball, and it was made by +the Western Cartridge Co., Division of Olin Industries. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Was that a 6.5 mm.? + +Mr. SIMMONS. 6.5-mm. Mannlicher-Carcano. + +Mr. EISENBERG. In the course of this test from a machine rest, Mr. +Simmons, did you also attempt to determine the muzzle velocity? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Yes; we also measured muzzle velocities for approximately +10 rounds of the ammunition. We gather from these measurements that the +nominal velocity, the nominal muzzle velocity is of the order of 2,200 +feet per second, and the velocity at about 200 feet from the muzzle +is approximately 2,000 feet per second. And there is some variation +in velocity from round to round as there is with all small-arms +ammunition. But the variation is relatively small, and within the same +order of magnitude as for conventional ammunition. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you test the bullets for yaw? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Yes; we measured yaw also, and all measurements of yaw +were also small. We had no values in excess of 2 degrees, and many +values were less than 1 degree in yaw, indicating that the round is +quite stable. + +Mr. EISENBERG. How did you test for yaw? + +Mr. SIMMONS. We took spark shadowgraph pictures at various stations +down range from the muzzle, so that we actually have pictures of the +position of the bullet relative to the top and bottom of our range. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you bring those pictures with you? + +Mr. SIMMONS. No; I do not have them with me. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you furnish those to the Commission at a later +date? + +Mr. SIMMONS. They could be made available later. I would like to point +out these are not pictures, however. They are on large pieces of glass, +and they are not photos. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can they be read by a layman? + +Mr. SIMMONS. That I do not know. I do not read them. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Well, I wonder whether you can send them up, and we +could take a look at them. + +Mr. SIMMONS. Yes; we can have them forwarded. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Was it reported to you by the persons who ran the +machine-rest tests whether they had any difficulties with sighting the +weapon in? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Well, they could not sight the weapon in using the +telescope, and no attempt was made to sight it in using the iron +sight. We did adjust the telescopic sight by the addition of two +shims, one which tended to adjust the azimuth, and one which adjusted +an elevation. The azimuth correction could have been made without the +addition of the shim, but it would have meant that we would have used +all of the adjustment possible, and the shim was a more convenient +means--not more convenient, but a more permanent means of correction. + +Mr. EISENBERG. By azimuth, do you refer to the crosshair which is +sometimes referred to as the windage crosshair? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Would you recognize these shims that I display to you, +Mr. Simmons, as being the shims that were placed in the weapon? + +Mr. SIMMONS. I saw the shims only when they were in the weapon, but +those look very much like what was evident from the external view, +after they were in place. + +Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, Mr. Chairman, these shims were given to +me by the FBI who told me that they had removed them from the weapon +after they had been placed there by Mr. Simmons' laboratory. + +May I have these introduced as evidence? + +Mr. McCLOY. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Simmons, I find there are three shims here. You +mentioned two. Would three be consistent with what you were told? + +Mr. SIMMONS. I was told two. These were put in by a gunsmith in one of +our machine shops--rather a machinist in one of our machine shops. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Simmons, I wonder whether you could take these shims +back after I have marked them to find out whether the three had been +placed? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I am marking these 576, 577, and 578. They consist of +three shims in three small envelopes. + +(The items referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 576, 577, +and 578, and received in evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Simmons, did you have a test run to determine the +possibility of scoring hits with this weapon, Exhibit 139, on a given +target at a given distance under rapid-fire conditions? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Yes; we did. We placed three targets, which were head +and shoulder silhouettes, at distances of 175 feet, 240 feet, and 265 +feet, and these distances are slant ranges from the window ledge of a +tower which is about 30 feet high. We used three firers in an attempt +to obtain hits on all three targets within as short a time interval as +possible. + +I should make one comment here relative to the angular displacement +of the targets. We did not reproduce these angles exactly from the +map which we had been given because the conditions in the field were +a little awkward for this. But the distance--the angular distance +from the first target to the second was greater than from the second +to the third, which would tend to correspond to a longer interval of +time between the first and second impact than between the second and +the third. The movement of the rifle was greater from the first to the +second target than from the second to the third. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Simmons, were your marksmen instructed to aim at the +three targets in consecutive order? + +Mr. SIMMONS. The marksmen were instructed to take as much time as they +desired at the first target, and then to fire--at the first target, +being at 175 feet--to then fire at the target emplaced at 240 feet, and +then at the one at 265 feet. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you state where you derived these distances? + +Mr. SIMMONS. These distances were the values given on the survey map +which were given to us. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Are you sure they were not the values I gave to you +myself? + +Mr. SIMMONS. I stand corrected. These are values--we were informed that +the numbers on the survey map were possibly in error. The distances are +very close, however. + +Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, the figures which I gave Mr. Simmons are +approximations and are not to be taken as the Commission's conclusive +determination of what those distances are. + +Mr. SIMMONS. For our experiment, I do not see how a difference of a few +feet would make any difference. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Simmons, did you take pictures or have pictures +taken showing what that range looked like? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Yes; I have copies of these pictures here. I show you +three pictures--the first showing the window from which the weapon was +fired in our experiments; the second showing the view of the three +targets from the window; and the third showing a rifleman in position. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Simmons, did you take these pictures yourself? + +Mr. SIMMONS. No; these pictures were taken by one of the cameramen from +the development and proof services. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you see the scenes represented in these pictures? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Are these pictures accurate reproductions of these +scenes? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like to have the first, second, +and third pictures described by Mr. Simmons admitted as exhibits. That +will be 579 for the first, 580 for the second, and 581 for the third. + +Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted. + +(The photographs referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 579, +580, and 581 and received in evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Simmons, the targets were--well, can you describe +the targets for us? + +Mr. SIMMONS. The targets are standard head-and-shoulders silhouettes, +and they consist of approximately 2 square feet in area. + +Mr. EISENBERG. How many marksmen were involved? + +Mr. SIMMONS. We used three riflemen. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And can you tell us what their background was? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. All three riflemen are rated as Master by the +National Rifle Association. Two of them are civilian gunners in the +Small Arms Division of our Development and Proof Services, and the +third is presently in the Army, and he has considerable background as a +rifleman, and also has a Master rating. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Each fired one or more series of three rounds? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Each fired two series of three rounds, using the +telescopic sight. Then one of the firers repeated the exercise using +the iron sight--because we had no indication whether the telescope had +been used. + +Mr. EISENBERG. So the total number of rounds fired was what? + +Mr. SIMMONS. 21. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you bring with you targets or copies of the targets? + +Mr. SIMMONS. I brought photos of the targets. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you take these photographs, Mr. Simmons, or have +them taken under your supervision? + +Mr. SIMMONS. These photographs were taken by the photographic +laboratory in our Ballistic Measurements Laboratory, which is one of +the complex of laboratories within the Ballistic Research Laboratory. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you verify these photographs as being accurate +reproductions of the targets? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have these admitted as 582, 583 and +584? + +Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted. + +(The photographs referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 582, +583, and 584 for identification and received in evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Simmons, could you discuss the results of the tests +you ran, by using these photographs? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Exhibit 582 is the target which was emplaced at 175 feet. +All firers hit the first target, and this was to be expected, because +they had as much time as they desired to aim at the first target. + +As you can see from the picture, the accuracy of the weapon is quite +good. + +Mr. McCLOY. That first target is what distance? + +Mr. SIMMONS. 175 feet. And we had to make an assumption here about the +point of aim. It is quite likely that in fact each man was aiming at a +different portion of the target--there were no markings on the target +visible to the firer. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did I understand you just told the firers to aim at the +target without referring to---- + +Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. There is an apparent crossline running darkly through +that photograph. + +Mr. SIMMONS. These lines were drawn in afterwards, in order for us to +make some measurements from the actual impact point. + +The target which was emplaced at 240 feet, as shown in Exhibit 583--we +had rather an unusual coincidence with respect to this target. This +involved the displacement of the weapon to a sufficient angle that the +basic firing position of the man had to be changed. And because they +knew time was very important, they made the movement very quickly. And +for the first four attempts, the firers missed the second target. Of +course, we made a rather, I guess, disadvantageous error in the test by +pointing out that they had missed on the second target, and there was a +conscious effort made on the additional rounds to hit the second target. + +On the third target, the angle through which the weapon had to be moved +to get to the third target from the second was relatively small, and +there were only two rounds which did not hit the target at 270 feet. +One of these rounds, by the way, was used in the sequence where the +iron sight was employed. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Simmons, when you said that the firers had to make a +large shift relatively in their firing position, and were in a hurry, +is this your interpretation or is this based on discussions with them +subsequently? + +Mr. SIMMONS. This is based on discussions with the firers after the +experiment. + +Mr. EISENBERG. After these tests were finished, did you make a +determination of the amount of error--average amount of error in the +aim of these riflemen? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. By assuming that all riflemen had aimed at the +intersection of the lines that we have drawn on these pictures, we +calculated the total aiming--the aiming error associated with the three +riflemen--this is one number to describe the accuracy of all three +riflemen. And against the first target the accuracy observed was about +.7 mils, in standard deviation. Against the second target, the accuracy +was 1.4 mils. And against the third target, it was 1.2 mils. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Again, could you convert those at a hundred yards to +inches? + +Mr. SIMMONS. 0.7 of a mil at 100 yards is approximately 2 inches. 1.4 +mils is approximately 4 inches. And 1.2 mils is approximately 3-1/2 +inches. + +Mr. EISENBERG. In arriving at these figures, had you discounted the +round-to-round dispersion as determined in the bench rest test? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. We have subtracted out the round-to-round dispersion. + +Mr. EISENBERG. But the actual accuracy of the riflemen would have to +include the round-to-round dispersion, would it not? + +Mrs. SIMMONS. Yes; it would. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Why did you then subtract the round-to-round dispersion +figure, or discount it? + +Mr. SIMMONS. We wanted to determine what the aiming error itself was +associated with the rifle. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you give us the times in which the various riflemen +used to fire the three shots in each sequence? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. And the numbers which I will give you will be the +average of two readings on stop watches. + +Mr. EISENBERG. For each rifleman? + +Mr. SIMMONS. For each exercise. + +Mr. Hendrix fired twice. The time for the first exercise was 8.25 +seconds; the time for the second exercise was 7.0 seconds. + +Mr. Staley, on the first exercise, fired in 6-3/4 seconds; the second +attempt he used 6.45 seconds. + +Specialist Miller used 4.6 seconds on his first attempt, 5.15 seconds +in his second attempt, and 4.45 seconds in his exercise using the iron +sight. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What was the accuracy of Specialist Miller? + +Mr. SIMMONS. I do not have his accuracy separated from the group. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is it possible to separate the accuracy out? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Yes; it is, by an additional calculation. + +Mr. Miller succeeded in hitting the third target on both attempts with +the telescope. He missed the second target on both attempts with the +telescope, but he hit the second target with the iron sight. And he +emplaced all three rounds on the target, the first target. + +Mr. EISENBERG. How did he do with the iron sight on the third target? + +Mr. SIMMONS. On the third target he missed the boards completely. And +we have not checked this out. It appears that for the firing posture +which Mr. Miller--Specialist Miller uses, the iron sight is not zeroed +for him, since his impacts on the first and second targets were quite +high, and against the third target we would assume that the projectile +went over the top of the target, which extended only a few inches over +the top of the silhouette. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What position did the rifleman fire from, Mr. Simmons? + +Mr. SIMMONS. The firers braced an elbow on the window sill and used +pretty much a standard sitting position, using a stool. + +Mr. EISENBERG. How much practice had they had with the weapon, Exhibit +139, before they began firing? + +Mr. SIMMONS. They had each attempted the exercise without the use of +ammunition, and had worked the bolt as they tried the exercise. They +had not pulled the trigger during the exercise, however, because we +were a little concerned about breaking the firing pin. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you give us an estimate of how much time they used +in this dry-run practice, each? + +Mr. SIMMONS. They used no more than 2 or 3 minutes each. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did they make any comments concerning the weapon? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Yes; there were several comments made--particularly with +respect to the amount of effort required to open the bolt. As a matter +of fact, Mr. Staley had difficulty in opening the bolt in his first +firing exercise. He thought it was completely up and it was not, and +he had to retrace his steps as he attempted to open the bolt after the +first round. + +There was also comment made about the trigger pull, which is different +as far as these firers are concerned. It is in effect a two-stage +operation where the first--in the first stage the trigger is relatively +free, and it suddenly required a greater pull to actually fire the +weapon. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Simmons, did you prepare a table showing the +probability of hit at a given target at given ranges by riflemen with +given degrees of accuracy? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Well, we prepared a table which showed what the +probability of a hit would be on specific sizes of target as a function +of aiming error, and using the appropriate round-to-round dispersion +also in these calculations. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What were the targets that you used in your calculations? + +Mr. SIMMONS. We used two circular targets, one of 4 inches in radius +and one of 9 inches in radius, to approximate the area of the head and +the area of the shoulders, or the thorax, actually. And a significant +point to these calculations to us is that against the larger target, if +you fire with the 0.7 mil aiming error which was observed against the +first target, the probability of hitting that target is 1, and it is 1 +at all three ranges, out to 270 feet. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain the meaning of the probability being 1? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Well, the probability is effectively one. Actually the +number is 0.99 and several more digits afterwards. It is rounded off to +1. Simply implying that the probability of a hit is very high with the +small aiming errors and short range. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now of course this aiming error is derived from the +three riflemen who you employed in the tests, is that correct? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you proceed to the other two? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Using the 1.2 mil aiming error, again at the larger +targets, the probability of hitting the target at 175 feet is 1; at 240 +feet it is 0.96; and at 270 feet it is 0.92. + +Mr. EISENBERG. How would you characterize the second two figures in +terms of probability? + +Mr. SIMMONS. These also are very high values. + +Mr. EISENBERG. The mil figure was 1.2, was it? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Does that include, did you say, both aiming error and +round-to-round dispersion? + +Mr. SIMMONS. The 1.2 is the aiming error. When we include the +round-to-round dispersion, it becomes only 1.24 mils. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Does the probability reflect the 1.2 or the 1.24 figure? + +Mr. SIMMONS. It reflects the total error, which is 1.24. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And the same on the first series of calculations you +gave us? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Would you go on to the third? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Using the 1.4 mil aiming error, and the round-to-round +dispersion, giving a total error of 1.43 mils, the probability of hit +at the 175 foot target is 0.99; at 240 feet it is 0.91; at 270 feet it +is 0.85. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you give us the figures for the smaller target? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Using the 0.7 mil aiming error, the probability of a hit at +175 feet is 0.96; at 240 feet, 0.81; at 270 feet, 0.73. + +For the 1.2 mil aiming error, the probability is 0.69 at 175 feet; 0.74 +at 240 feet; 0.39 at 270 feet. + +Using the---- + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you characterize those, or explain them in lay terms? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Well, against a shorter target, the probability is still +almost 0.7, which is a relatively high value. The effective-range +increase is beginning to show, however, because at 270 feet the value +of 0.4 tends to be small. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Does 0.4 mean you have 4 chances in 10 of hitting? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. + +Now, our assumption throughout all of this is that the actual target +was probably not either a small--the small area, but tending to be a +larger area, as indicated by the crosshairs in these targets which we +placed at this point. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you have given us probabilities of hit with three +variations of aiming error. You have selected these three variations in +what manner, Mr. Simmons? + +Mr. SIMMONS. These were actually the three values which were +demonstrated in the experiment. + +Mr. EISENBERG. But each of those values is associated with one target? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. However, you have applied them to all three targets? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you have a special reason for doing that? + +Mr. SIMMONS. No. We are victims of habit, and we tend to provide such +information in parametric form. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Simmons, of course the assassin's aiming error +must be unknown. But do you have any opinion concerning the probable +aiming error of an assassin using this weapon against the aiming error +displayed by the three riflemen you employed? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Well, it looks like to achieve hits as indicated, the +accuracy, overall accuracy of the three rounds would have to be of the +order of 1.2 mils. And this is really not a small number as far as +marksmanship goes. There have been many exercises in which we have been +involved where the aiming error turns out to be much smaller, smaller +than this. And in match competition, of course, the numbers actually +turn out to be--the total aiming error turns out to be about equal to +the round-to-round dispersion. + +Mr. EISENBERG. When you make the reference to many exercises, are you +referring to exercises solely with skilled riflemen? + +Mr. SIMMONS. If we have skilled riflemen, the values for aiming error +tend to be of the order of 1 mil. As a matter of fact, to qualify as +expert on Army rifle courses, about a 1 mil aiming error is required--a +standard deviation of 1 mil. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is that with a rest or without a rest? + +Mr. SIMMONS. This would be without a rest. This would be the actual +aiming error from the fixed position, firing range. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And is this with open or telescopic sights? + +Mr. SIMMONS. This would be with the peepsight on the conventional rifle. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Have you exercises which you feel would be applicable to +the assassination--that is, exercises conducted with--under noncombat +conditions, with a telescopic sight and a rest? + +Mr. SIMMONS. The only experience that we have with the telescopic sight +with which I am familiar is the exercise using this weapon. There have +been experiments made using telescopic sights, but these are of limited +interest militarily. + +Mr. EISENBERG. In your opinion, what effect does the introduction of a +rest and telescopic sight have on probable aiming error? + +Mr. SIMMONS. From a position where the movement of the weapon is not +great, and where the target is slowly moving, the fixed position on the +telescope should enhance the probability of a hit. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Do you think a marksman who is less than a highly +skilled marksman under those conditions would be able to shoot in the +range of 1.2-mil aiming error? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Obviously considerable experience would have to be +in one's background to do so. And with this weapon, I think also +considerable experience with this weapon, because of the amount of +effort required to work the bolt. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Would do what? You mean would improve the accuracy? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. In our experiments, the pressure to open the bolt was +so great that we tended to move the rifle off the target, whereas with +greater proficiency this might not have occurred. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could this experience in operating the bolt be achieved +in dry practice, Mr. Simmons? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Yes; it could be, if sufficient practice were used. There +is some indication of the magnitude of change with one of our shooters +who in his second attempt fired three-tenths of a second less time than +he did in the first. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Simmons, has data been compiled showing the effect +of the time taken between shots on the accuracy of the shots? + +Mr. SIMMONS. There have been experiments run where aiming error has +been measured as a function of the time one has to aim. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Do those experiments show that aiming error is directly +proportionate to the length of time one has to aim? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Not directly proportionate, but aiming error decreases +as time increases. But once you get to the area of about 4 seconds in +time, then there is very small decrease in aiming error for increase in +time. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Translating that to this weapon, does that mean that +taking more than 8 seconds between three shots should not appreciably +affect the degree of accuracy? + +Mr. SIMMONS. The 8 seconds I was referring to is between shots. + +Mr. EISENBERG. You said 4 seconds, I thought. + +Mr. SIMMONS. I beg your pardon. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And I was saying, if you took 4 seconds between the +first and second, and 4 seconds between the second and third, for a +total of 8 seconds, on the basis of this data would that mean after +8 seconds you would not be substantially increasing your accuracy by +taking more time? + +Mr. SIMMONS. That is correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Approximately how many bullets did you fire in the +course of your tests? + +Mr. SIMMONS. We fired 47 bullets. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you have any misfires? + +Mr. SIMMONS. None. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Were you aware when you performed your tests of the +conclusions of any other body concerning the accuracy of this weapon? + +Mr. SIMMONS. No; we were not. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Are you aware of such conclusions at this point? + +Mr. SIMMONS. No; I am not. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman? + +Mr. McCLOY. You said that these riflemen, or one or two of them at +least, had the rank of master. What is that? + +Mr. SIMMONS. I again fall back on my comment earlier that I am not +a shooter myself. A master is one of the ratings given to highly +qualified riflemen by the National Rifle Association. These men have +all participated in national match competitions in the National Rifle +Association. + +Mr. McCLOY. Is that a higher grade than sharpshooter in the Army? + +Mr. SIMMONS. There is really no comparison between the rating of master +in the NRA and the rating of sharpshooter in the Army. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I am not sure whether or not you answered this question, +but do you feel that if the target was moving, rather than having the +rifleman move, there would have been a difference in aiming error, +increased or decreased aiming error--if the target was moving 5 to 10 +miles an hour? + +Mr. SIMMONS. I think the movement of the target in this case would have +practically no effect on the accuracy of fire, because from the map we +are led to believe that the movement was primarily away from the firer, +so that the back of the President was fully exposed to the rifleman at +all times. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you explain your reference to a map? You have made +several references to that. + +Mr. SIMMONS. I refer to the survey plat which is dated December 5, 1963. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And how were you supplied with that? + +Mr. SIMMONS. To the best of my knowledge, you gave it to one of the +employees in my office. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, this is a plat made by a licensed surveyor +of the area immediately adjoining the Texas School Book Depository. +I would like to introduce it into evidence solely to show the basis +which Mr. Simmons was using in his test, and not for the truth of the +measurements which are shown in here. + +Mr. McCLOY. It may be received. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That would be Commission 585. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 585 and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. I have no further questions. + +Mr. McCLOY. I have no further questions. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is there anything you would like to add to your +testimony? + +Mr. SIMMONS. I think not. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I wonder whether we could have a copy of your table? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. + +Mr. McCLOY. From your experience, Mr. Simmons, do you feel that with +a man who had been in the Marine Corps, with the rifle instruction he +had there, using this rifle, and what you know of the shots that killed +the President--do you think he was an extraordinarily good shot, do you +think he was just shooting in accordance with what might be taken to be +the skill that service in the Marine Corps would give him? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Well, in order to achieve three hits, it would not be +required that a man be an exceptional shot. A proficient man with this +weapon, yes. But I think with the opportunity to use the weapon and to +get familiar with it, we could probably have the results reproduced by +more than one firer. + +Mr. McCLOY. I think that is all. + +Mr. EISENBERG. One thing, Mr. Chairman. May I have this admitted as +586, this table which Mr. Simmons prepared, from which he was giving +testimony earlier? This is "Table I, Hit Probability as a Function of +Range and Aiming Error." + +Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. + +(The table referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 586 and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. When you say proficiency with this weapon, Mr. Simmons, +could you go into detail as to what you mean--do you mean, accuracy +with this weapon, or familiarity with the weapon? + +Mr. SIMMONS. I mean familiarity basically with two things. One is the +action of the bolt itself, and the force required to open it; and two, +the action of the trigger, which is a two-stage trigger. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can familiarity with the trigger and with the bolt be +acquired in dry practice? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Familiarity with the bolt can, probably as well as during +live firing. But familiarity with the trigger would best be achieved +with some firing. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Why is there this difference between familiarity with +the bolt and familiarity with the trigger in dry firing? + +Mr. SIMMONS. There tends to be a reaction between the firer and the +weapon at the time the weapon is fired, due to the recoil impulse. And +I do not believe the action of the bolt going home would sufficiently +simulate the action of the recoil of the weapon. + +Mr. EISENBERG. One further question. + +Looking at the figures for aiming error, as discounted by +round-to-round dispersion, how would you characterize the actual +performance of men with this rifle--that is, not the accuracy of the +weapon, but the accuracy of man and weapon. + +Mr. SIMMONS. I am not sure I understand your question. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Do you feel on the basis of the aiming error, discounted +for round-to-round dispersion or including it, that this weapon is an +easy one with which to be accurate, or a difficult one? + +Mr. SIMMONS. It appears to be relatively conventional in that regard, +I assume. The telescope helps in the accuracy against a target which +is well displayed, as was the case here. And the weapon is reasonably +conventional. So that I think it would not be significantly different +from any other weapon. + +Mr. McCLOY. If you were having a dry run with this, you could certainly +make yourself used to the drag in the trigger without discharging the +rifle, could you not? + +Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. But there are two stages to the trigger. Our riflemen +were all used to a trigger with a constant pull. When the slack was +taken up, then they expected the round to fire. But actually when the +slack is taken up, you tend to have a hair trigger here, which requires +a bit of getting used to. + +Mr. McCLOY. This does not have a hair trigger after the slack is taken +up? + +Mr. SIMMONS. This tends to have the hair trigger as soon as you move it +after the slack is taken up. You achieve or you feel greater resistance +to the movement of the trigger, and then ordinarily you would expect +the weapon to have fired, and in this case then as you move it to +overcome that, it fires immediately. And our firers were moving the +shoulder into the weapon. + +Mr. McCLOY. I have no further questions. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That is all. + +Mr. McCLOY. Thank you very much. You have been very helpful. + +We shall recess now until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. + +(Whereupon, at 5:25 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +_Wednesday, April 1, 1964_ + +TESTIMONY OF CORTLANDT CUNNINGHAM AND JOSEPH D. NICOL + +The President's Commission met at 9 a.m. on April 1, 1964, at 200 +Maryland Avenue NE., Washington. D.C. + +Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Hale +Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Mr. Allen W. Dulles, members. + +Also present were Melvin Aron Eisenberg, assistant counsel; Norman +Redlich, assistant counsel; Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel; Charles +Murray and Charles Rhyne, observers. + + +TESTIMONY OF CORTLANDT CUNNINGHAM + +The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. + +Mr. Cunningham, the purpose of today's hearing is to take the testimony +of yourself and Mr. Joseph Nicol. We understand that you are a firearms +expert with the FBI, and Mr. Nicol is a firearms expert with the Bureau +of Criminal Identification and Investigation of the Department of +Public Safety of the State of Illinois. + +You have both been asked to provide technical information to assist the +Commission in its work. + +Would you raise your right hand and be sworn, please? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give will be the +truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I do. + +The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please. + +You may proceed with the examination. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, would you state your name and position? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Cortlandt Cunningham. I am a Special Agent of the FBI. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And in what branch of the FBI do you work? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am assigned to the Firearms Identification Unit of +the FBI Laboratory, here in Washington, D.C. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What is your education? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I have a Bachelor of Science degree from Northwestern +University, and a Bachelor of Laws degree from the University of Miami. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you briefly state your qualifications in the field +of firearms identification? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Upon entering the FBI Laboratory, I underwent an +extensive training course under the supervision of experienced +examiners in the field of firearms identification, which consisted of +making thousands of examinations and comparisons of bullets, cartridge +cases, and weapons. + +I have also done reading in the subject. I have done some research and +conducted many experiments in the field. And, of course, I have made +thousands of examinations on my own and testified numerous times in +State and Federal courts. + +Mr. EISENBERG. How many years have you been in the Laboratory, Mr. +Cunningham? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Over 5 years, and I have been in the Bureau over 10 +years. + +The CHAIRMAN. The witness is qualified. + +Mr. EISENBERG. To begin with, Mr. Cunningham, we had some testimony +yesterday on the bullet which is thought to have been fired at General +Walker. That is Commission Exhibit No. 573. Are you familiar with this +bullet, Mr. Cunningham? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you supply the weight of that bullet, which was +going to be supplied to us? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I can. This bullet weighed 148.25 grains. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Does that show some weight loss, if the bullet was from +a 6.5 mm. Mannlicher-Carcano cartridge? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It does. Those bullets weigh 161 grains, but there is a +great deal of mutilation on this bullet. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And could you tell us when you received this bullet in +your laboratory, Mr. Cunningham? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. It was received from the Dallas office of the FBI +on December 4, 1963. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And when was it examined? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It was examined that date. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, I now hand you Commission Exhibit No. +143, and I ask you whether you are familiar with this exhibit, which, +for the record, is a revolver. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. If you will excuse me, I won't open the cylinder. I +have checked the cylinder, and there are expended or fired cartridge +cases in the cylinder. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Which you have placed in it for a special demonstration? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I fired it, yes, prior to my testimony here today. I +have seen this weapon before. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Again for the record, this is the weapon which is +believed to have been used in the murder of Officer Tippit. Can you +describe this weapon in terms of name, caliber and so forth? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Do you want me to describe it as it is today? + +Mr. EISENBERG. As it is today. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. As it is today, it is a .38 Special Smith and Wesson, +Victory Model revolver. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And was it always a .38 Special? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, it was not. Originally this weapon was known as +a .38-200 British Service revolver. In this country the weapon would +be known as a .38 caliber Smith and Wesson revolver, Victory Model. +However, the British gave the designation .38-200 to it. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Was this revolver made in the United States? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It was. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And has it been in England subsequent to that? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And how can you tell that, Mr. Cunningham? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Well, first of all, all weapons going into England have +to be proofed. They are proofed at, usually, the Birmingham proofhouse. + +Representative FORD. What does that mean? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They are tested for whether they will withstand a +certain charge. They place in the cylinders overloaded cartridges, and +they are fired, in the cylinder, as this one has been. It has been +proofed to 3-1/2 tons. Each chamber in the cylinder has been proofed. + +You can tell that, because each chamber has been stamped with the +Birmingham proofmark, indicating that each chamber in the cylinder has +been proofed. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, could you explain to us the difference +between a .38 S&W and a .38 Special? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They are completely different cartridges. One cartridge +is a .38 Special, and the other cartridge is a .38 S&W, or actually +written out it would be Smith and Wesson. It was developed for their +weapons, and it 1s quite an old cartridge, and it is known--usually as +appears on a box of ammunition--as merely a .38 S&W. However, there are +many differences in the cartridges. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Have you brought two--an example of each type of +cartridge with you? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I have. First of all, this is actually a Western .38 +S&W cartridge. You will see the head stamping on the base of this +cartridge signifies it to be a .38 S&W. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Before you go any further--Mr. Chairman, may I have this +marked as an exhibit--this specimen? + +I am holding a cartridge marked Western .38 S&W, and it is submitted as +Commission Exhibit 587. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 587, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. If you would care to see one broken down, I have one +with me. That is the same cartridge where the bullet has been pulled +and the powder has been dumped out. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That is also a .38 S&W cartridge, but it has been +disassembled into a bullet and a cartridge case? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. The bullet has been pulled out of the +cartridge case and the powder removed. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this admitted as an exhibit? + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be. What is the number? + +Mr. EISENBERG. That will be 588. + +The CHAIRMAN. It will be admitted as Commission Exhibit 588. + +(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 588, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. This particular cartridge, which is one complete +cartridge, is a Remington-Peters .38 S&W. These two components actually +are of the same cartridge. All I have done is pull the bullet, and it +is also a Remington-Peters .38 S&W. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That is the same cartridge as Exhibits 588 and 587? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. The only difference is that they are +different brands. They were made by two different manufacturers. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you show that to the Chairman for his examination? + +The CHAIRMAN. These appear to be lead bullets. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They are, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. The others appeared to be jacketed. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They are not, sir. It is known as gilding metal. They +are copper-coated lead bullets. Actually, it is an alloy--it is not +pure copper. They have been flash coated, for sales appeal, more than +anything else. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Does that coating serve to prevent distortion to any +measurable extent when the bullet has penetrated a body? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, it would not, to any appreciable amount. It is such +a thin coat, as you can see. Later on I will show you the ones that +have been fired, and also the bullets removed from Officer Tippit's +body. You can see the coating comes off--it flakes off--it is very thin. + +Mr. EISENBERG. So that Exhibits 587 and 588 are substantially similar +to the R-P cartridge you have just been discussing? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. They are both loaded to the same specifications, +even though there are two manufacturers. All commercially made +ammunition in this country is loaded to a specific muzzle velocity. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this R-P cartridge which Mr. +Cunningham has been discussing admitted into evidence as Commission +Exhibit 589? + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 589, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. You have been showing us a .38 S&W, Mr. Cunningham? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have an example of a .38 Special? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I do. The first one is a Western .38 Special +copper-coated lead bullet of Western manufacture, a .38 Special. The +other components I have here are components of the same cartridge from +which the bullet has been pulled. + +Mr. EISENBERG. May I have the cartridge case, bullet, and cartridge +admitted into evidence as 590? + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 590, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cunningham, could you describe to us briefly +the difference---- + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Do you want the Remington-Peters? + +Mr. EISENBERG. You are holding in your hand a Remington-Peters +disassembled and assembled .38 Special? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Would you hand that to the Chief Justice? May this be +admitted into evidence as Exhibit 591? + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 591, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. This consists of an assembled R-P .38 Special and a +disassembled R-P .38 Special. + +Again, I notice, Mr. Cunningham, that the R-P bullet has a lead-colored +look, whereas Exhibit 590 had a copper-colored look. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. The Western coating is known by the trade +name "Lubaloy." It is a trade name of the Western Cartridge Co., and +it is nothing more than a gilding metal--actually, it is just a flash +coating on the outside of the bullet. There is some advantage, a very +small advantage, as to leading. But it is mostly for sales appeal, +because with Winchester bullets, some do and some don't have the +coating. Most of Winchesters which is the same bullet, have not been +copper coated--that they are selling today. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, can you explain the difference in terms of +dimensions and contour, weight, and so forth, between the .38 Special +bullets which you have just shown us and the .38 S&W bullets which you +have shown to us? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. The complete .38 Special cartridges, +both brands, they are approximately the same--they are made to +specifications, and they are within--just 1/1000th difference between +the two of them. They are very close. In some cases, there is a slight +difference, but generally they are the same size. + +The .38 Special cartridges are a little over 1-1/2 inches in length. +The .38 S&W cartridges are approximately 1.2 inches in length. In other +words, there is about 4/10ths of an inch difference in their length. + +The bullets of the .38 Special weigh 158 grains--both brands. +The bullets in the .38 S&W cartridges--there is one grain +difference--Western Lubaloy bullets weigh 145 grains, and Remington's +bullets weigh 146 grains, which is very close, when you figure there +are 7,000 grains to the pound. + +The length of the bullets themselves--the .38 Special bullets are +approximately .72 plus inch. The .38 S&W bullets are approximately +.6 plus inch. The lengths of the cartridge cases are also different. +A .38 Special is approximately 1.15 inches for both brands. The .38 +S&W cartridge cases are approximately .77 inch. And there you have +approximately a quarter of an inch difference between the lengths of +the cartridge cases. + +The diameters of the bullets--the .38 Special bullets, at the +portion of the bullet where the case is crimped into the bullet are +approximately .357". + +Mr. EISENBERG. That is the groove around the base of the bullet, also +known as the cannelure? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, it is just above the two grooves, which are known +as cannelures, where the bullet is crimped. It is known as the crimp +ring. It is nothing more than where the case has been crimped in. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I have pulled out the bullet from Exhibit 591, and there +is a little groove running above the second groove from the top--from +the bottom, the base, of the bullet. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That would be your crimping groove. Up at approximately +that area, both .38 Specials are approximately .357". However, the +bases of the .38 Specials, both brands, are about .350". + +In other words, there is about 7/1000ths difference between the base +and where they are crimped, and both brands of .38 Specials seem to +run--slightly undersized at the base. + +On the .38 Special the diameter of the bullets where they are crimped +is .357". The .38 S&W Remington-Peters bullets run about .360", or +just slightly less, which is about 3/1000ths larger. Their bases, both +brands, run about .356". In other words, they run about 6/1000ths +larger at the base--even though the bullets are shorter overall in the +.38 S&W. + +Mr. EISENBERG. To summarize that, in terms of the diameter, do I +understand that the .38 Special and the .38 S&W have a similar diameter +as you approach the nose of the bullet, but that the .38 has a somewhat +larger diameter at the base than the .38 Special? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. .38 S&W. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, why would the gun be rechambered from the original +chamber, which was designed for the .38 S&W, to the chamber as it +stands now, which you tell us is designed for the .38 Special? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. In this country, the .38 S&W is not a popular cartridge +at the present time. In years gone by, many, many, many weapons have +been made for that particular cartridge. But they are usually the +top-break, the cheaper type of weapon. The .38 Special cartridge is a +better cartridge. There is a higher velocity and everything about the +cartridge is better than the .38 S&W, ballistically. + +The .38 Special has become popular in this country for revolvers. And +the reason it was chambered in .38 S&W originally is because in England +and on the Continent it is a popular cartridge. The .38 S&W in England +is the .38-200. They loaded a 200-grain bullet into the same cartridge +case, and it was the standard British Army load for this particular +weapon and others. Why they took that particular cartridge, I do not +know. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Was the gun rebarreled as well as rechambered? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, it was not. The barrel of this weapon has been cut +off approximately 2-3/4 inches. The original barrel was 5 inches for +this model. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Would the failure to rebarrel affect the accuracy of the +weapon? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It should slightly, if you are firing .38 Special +bullets, because they are slightly undersized in a .38 S&W barrel. On +the average, .38 S&W barrels are approximately 4/1000ths larger than +the normal .38 Special barrel. In this particular weapon, that holds +true. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Would it affect accuracy at close range? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. None whatsoever. And there, again, the shortening of +the barrel would affect the accuracy more than the use of .38 Special, +due to the fact that your sight radius has been cut down. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That is to say, when you shorten the barrel, the length +between the front and the back sights is shorter, therefore giving more +room for error? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. In other words, the movement of the front +sight will cause more of a discrepancy at the target at longer ranges, +due to the shorter sight radius. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is there any functional reason for cutting the barrel +down to its present short size? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Sales appeal, I would say, is the main reason. Also, +concealment. + +Mr. EISENBERG. In your experience, is a short barrel, cut-down barrel +weapon like this usually purchased for legitimate purposes by other +than police officers? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Possibly a collector. Among target shooters, it is not +a popular weapon, due to the short sight radius. Revolvers with 6-inch +barrels are very accurate weapons. A target shooter would not use a +weapon of the short barrel type. Therefore, it is not a very popular +weapon for sportsmen. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Does the cutting off of the barrel increase the +possibility of concealment? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It does, because it makes it handier. I carried, when I +was in the field 5 years--I carried my personally owned firearm, which +had a 2-inch barrel, due to the fact that for concealment you could not +see it when I wore a suit, and it was more discreet in the type of work +I was doing. + +The CHAIRMAN. Can both kinds of cartridges be used interchangeably in +this gun? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. In this particular gun, yes sir. It makes no difference. + +The CHAIRMAN. Either an S&W or S&W Special? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; the chambers of this particular cylinder have +been bored out, it appears from the very rough marks, to accommodate +the forward portion of a .38 Special cartridge. Also, when this barrel +was made--or the cylinder was made--the chambers had a shoulder or lip +that the .38 S&W cartridge case would fit up against. The bullet would +go forward farther, but the cartridge case would fit up against this +shoulder at the neck. + +And in order to chamber a .38 Special, that forward portion had to +be bored out slightly, several thousandths to accommodate the longer +cartridge, which, by the way, is a very common thing on these surplus +weapons. Practically all of them are being rechambered, due to the +popularity of the .38 Special cartridge. + +The CHAIRMAN. I see. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, this weapon--was this weapon sold into +the United States after it had been used in England? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. How much sign of use does it show? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It has definitely been used, there is no doubt. +However, the cylinder is quite tight, and I would say that this weapon +is in good operating condition. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, since it was sold used, are you unable to attribute +any amount of use to the last user? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is right, you would not be able to tell. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, could you explain briefly the manner +in which this revolver is operated, paying particular attention to +extraction and loading and reloading? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. First of all, the weapon has a frame into +which a barrel has been screwed and a cylinder which is hinged on a +crane is also fitted into the frame. There is a cylinder release on the +left-hand side of this weapon which enables one to push the cylinder to +the left. + +The cylinder has six chambers--in other words, it is a six-shot weapon. +There is an extractor rod and an extractor in the rear portion of the +cylinder. When you press on the extractor rod, either loaded cartridges +or fired cartridge cases may be extracted from the cylinder so that it +may be reloaded again. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cunningham, in the operation of this weapon, +the cylinder takes six bullets--is that correct? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. In the operation of this weapon, when six bullets have +been loaded into the cylinder, is any action needed for firing except +six consecutive trigger pulls? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. You can fire this weapon either single +or double action. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, can you explain the meaning of that? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. Double action is accomplished by pulling the +trigger. In other words, you just pull the trigger each time and you +can fire this weapon six times before reloading. This weapon can also +be cocked, which puts the sear on the step of the hammer and reduces +the trigger pull, and may be fired that way. This is known as single +action. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, if a person using the gun and having it fully +loaded with six bullets fired less than six bullets, can he use this +ejector-extraction mechanism without losing his unfired bullets as well +as the empty cartridge cases? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir--by merely tipping the weapon. The unfired +cartridge is heavier, and will fall out of the cylinder into his hand. +Then he can extract the cartridge cases and load in more. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you demonstrate that? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. If I may have a cartridge, please. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have any fired cartridges in the cylinder? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; I do. Prior to my appearance here today, this +morning, I fired five cartridges in this weapon, and they are still in +the cylinder. + +Mr. EISENBERG. You are now placing an unfired---- + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. An unfired cartridge in the sixth chamber of the +cylinder. Now, in a normal way, you would hit the cylinder release, +push in your hand like this, and tip it up. The unfired cartridge will +fall right out into your hand, due to the fact that the chambers of +the cylinder are naturally larger than the cartridge you are loading +in there--for ease of putting them in. When you fire a cartridge +in a revolver, the case expands as wide as the cylinder. In other +words, when the firing pin hits the primer, there is an explosion in +the primer, the powder is ignited in the cartridge, and the terrific +pressure will expand the cartridge case to tightly fit the chamber. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I would like the record to show that when Mr. Cunningham +tipped the revolver, the unfired bullet tipped out, but the five +expended shells remained in. + +The CHAIRMAN. Very well. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cunningham, would you show how you would eject +the five expended shells? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. These are very difficult, by the way, to extract, +due to the fact that the chamber has been rechambered. And as you can +see, you get on your cartridge cases a little ballooning with these +smaller diameter cases in the .38 Special. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I would like the record to show that Mr. Cunningham +extracted the five expended cartridge cases merely by one push of the +ejector rod. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. You won't be able to see it again, but when you eject a +cartridge case--later on for the powder pattern test, I will show that +you can have residues of unburned powder. That is what would happen +if you ejected these cartridge cases in your hand. You would pick up +unburned powder, residues, and partially burned powder. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham had ejected five cartridge cases from the +revolver into his hand, and his right hand is now filled with small +black particles, whose composition I am unable to determine. + +Representative FORD. That would happen any time that you did it? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; every time you eject them, these particles +will come out from the cylinder into your hand--unburned powder, +partially burned powder, and gunpowder residues. + +Representative FORD. Had you fired this morning these particular +bullets? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; at 8:15. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, these cartridge cases which you ejected +were .38 Special cartridge cases? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They were. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What time did you fire those bullets, those .38 Special +bullets in this revolver? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. At approximately 8:15 this morning. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Let the record show that it is now 9:45. Now, Mr. +Cunningham, could this revolver be loaded on the run, or while walking? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It could. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Have you personally loaded a revolver like this while +walking? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. And running. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Does this revolver have a serial number on it? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It does. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you read that number to us, please? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. V-510210. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is this serial number unique to this particular type of +weapon? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. Smith and Wesson does not duplicate numbers. You +may have a similar number, but not with the prefix "V." + +Mr. EISENBERG. So this is the only such weapon with this serial number +that is in existence? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. As far as I know. I have never found +one in my experience, and Smith and Wesson does not duplicate serial +numbers in a particular series of weapons. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Smith and Wesson claims not to duplicate? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, how fast could one get off shots from +this weapon, shooting rapid fire, and without sighting? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. In a combat stance, that is crouched, with a gun at +belt level, and your wrist locked, you would have no trouble at all +getting off five shots in from 3 to 4 seconds. + +Mr. EISENBERG. With what degree of accuracy at close range? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Excellent. All FBI agents, for instance, practice at 7 +yards, which is 21 feet, and we are hitting in the "kill zone" without +any problem. + +Mr. EISENBERG. How much training would one have to have with this +weapon to get four hits in four or five shots at close range into a +human body? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. None whatsoever--if you can pull the trigger and point +directly at a person, at 8 feet you would not likely miss--with one +exception. If you did not lock your wrist, there is a possibility +you could shoot too low, or you could pull to the side. Anyone with +a little bit of knowledge and with--and really grabbing hold of the +weapon, would have little difficulty at all at that distance. + +Mr. EISENBERG. When you say "lock your wrist," do you mean just +pointing the wrist so that it is in a straight line with your lower +forearm? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. In other words, to tighten it, and not be in a +relaxed position. By merely tightening the wrist, you would have no +trouble at all hitting a person, approximately the same distance as Mr. +Eisenberg and myself. + +The CHAIRMAN. I suppose a person who had the normal small-arms training +that he gets in the Marine Corps would have the ability to do what you +have just spoken of? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Definitely, sir. As a matter of fact, with any training +at all with a revolver, I would say that he would hit 90 percent of the +time. + +Representative FORD. Is there a recoil action at all from this kind of +weapon? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; you get recoil. But if you have had any +training with a weapon of this sort, the recoil is not even noticed. +The first time you ever fired this weapon the recoil or the noise, +might bother you. But if you have ever fired a handgun, you don't even +think about recoil. You automatically adjust. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, you mentioned distance between you and +me earlier, a few sentences ago. Could you estimate that distance? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Approximately 8 feet. + +Mr. EISENBERG. If there are no further questions on the revolver, I +propose to move on to identification of bullets and cartridge cases +associated with the Tippit murder. + +The CHAIRMAN. I have none. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, I hand you Commission Exhibits Nos. 145 +and 518, which, for the record, consist of bullets, unfired bullets +which were found in the revolver and the pocket of Lee Harvey Oswald +following his arrest on November 22. I ask you whether you are familiar +with the bullets in these exhibits. + +You are now looking at which exhibit, Mr. Cunningham? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Commission Exhibit 518. + +I have seen them before. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe these bullets very briefly? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. They are cartridges. There are four +cartridges. Two are Western .38 Special with copper-coated lead bullets +loaded into these cartridges. The other two are Remington-Peters .38 +Special cartridges, which are loaded with lead bullets. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you describe the bullets in the other exhibit? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Commission Exhibit 145 consists of one Western .38 +Special cartridge, which is also loaded with a copper-coated lead +bullet, and the other cartridge is a Remington-Peters .38 Special +cartridge, which is loaded with a lead bullet. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I now hand you another group of bullets, marked Q-82 +through Q-86. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Eisenberg, would you state for the record at this +time what those two bullets are? They are introduced another time. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; all the bullets which Mr. Cunningham examined were +found either in the pocket or the--pocket of Lee Harvey Oswald--or the +cylinder of his revolver at the time of his arrest on November 22. + +I now hand you another group of bullets marked Q-82 through Q-86, and +with certain other markings on them. + +Are you familiar with these bullets? And may I state for the record +that the bullets I have just handed Mr. Cunningham derive from the same +source. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am familiar with these bullets. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you describe these briefly? + +Before I do that--Mr. Chairman, may I have these bullets admitted into +evidence as a group, as Exhibit 592? + +The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted. + +(The articles referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 592, and +received in evidence.) + +The CHAIRMAN. At this time, I shall have to leave to attend a session +of the Supreme Court. + +Commissioner Ford, would you preside? + +And, during the morning, Commissioner Dulles will be here, I am told, +and if you leave, leave him in charge, will you, please? + +Representative FORD. Yes, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. + +Mr. Cunningham, thank you for your assistance. Glad to have seen you. + +(At this point, Mr. Warren withdrew from the hearing room.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you describe the bullets in Exhibit 592, Mr. +Cunningham? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; all five of them are Western .38 Special +cartridges, which are loaded with copper-coated lead bullets. + +Mr. EISENBERG. So that of a total of--you have examined a total of 11 +bullets, and three are Remington-Peter--well, at any rate, of the 11 +they are divided 3 and 8 into Remington-Peter and Western .38 Special +bullets? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cunningham, I hand you four cartridge cases in +an envelope marked Q-74, Q-75, Q-76, and Q-77. And I ask you whether +you are familiar with these cartridge cases. + +Mr. Cunningham, before going on to the cartridge cases I just handed +you, could you explain when you received the bullets which are +comprised in the last three exhibits, and who you received them from, +and how they were presented to you? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. Commission Exhibit 145 consists of the two +cartridges that we received--the FBI received from the U.S. Secret +Service. We received them on December 3, 1963. + +That is correct. They were personally delivered to the laboratory by +Special Agent Orrin Bartlett of the FBI, who is a liaison agent with +the Secret Service. And he delivered them to us on December 3, 1963. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And did he identify them in any way to you when he +delivered them? Did he describe their origin to you? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; he did not describe them to us. + +Mr. EISENBERG. All right. Could you go on to the next group of five +cartridges? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. I don't know the exhibit number. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That is Exhibit 592. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Commission Exhibit 592 was received in the FBI +Laboratory from the Dallas office of the FBI on November 30, 1963. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you tell us who you received them from? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The Dallas office of the FBI. I have no first-hand +knowledge. I know that they were received from the Dallas Police +Department--but that was due to what I have read in an FBI +investigative report. The laboratory received them from the Dallas +office on November 30. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you go on to the last group of four bullets? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Commission Exhibit 518 was also received from the +Dallas office of the FBI on November 30, 1963. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, for the record, I would like to state that to the +best of my knowledge the group of two and the group of four bullets, +which together total six, were taken by the Dallas Police from the +chamber of the revolver which is Exhibit 143, after the apprehension +of Lee Harvey Oswald. They were then split into two groups of two and +four as we have them now, two bullets being given to the Secret Service +and eventually, as Mr. Cunningham relates, to the FBI, and four bullets +going to the Dallas office of the FBI. + +The group of five bullets was taken from a pocket of Lee Harvey Oswald, +following his apprehension on November 22 and was kept separated from +the remaining bullets, I believe, merely because they had been taken +from a different source--that is, the pocket rather than the chamber of +the revolver. + +Mr. Cunningham, returning to Exhibit 145, do either of the two +cartridges in Exhibit 145 bear any signs of having suffered an impact +from the firing pin in the revolver, Exhibit 143? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. An examination of these two cartridges, the primers of +these two cartridges, reveals no marks that could be associated with +the firing pin in Commission Exhibit 143, or any other weapon. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Are there any nicks on either of those cartridges? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. There is a small nick, an indentation, up near the +edge of the primer in the Remington-Peters .38 Special cartridge. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could this nick have been caused by the firing pin? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. There was no indication, from an examination, that that +nick had been so caused by a firing pin. + +First of all, it is in the wrong position, it is not in the center of +the primer. And, also, a microscopic examination of that nick gave no +indication that it was made by a firing pin. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you microscopically examine the bases of both +cartridge cases? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, turning to Exhibit 518, consisting of four +bullets, which, as I mentioned earlier, were, like the two bullets in +Exhibit 145, taken from the chamber of the revolver, did you find any +nicks in any of these bullets, the bases of any of these bullets? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Just by handling, there are bound to be small +microscopic scratches of one kind or other. But there was no indication +that any of the primers in these four cartridges had been struck by a +firing pin. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Were these also examined microscopically? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They were, individually. + +Mr. EISENBERG. When you say there was no indication that they were +struck by a firing pin, in your opinion, based on the construction of +this weapon, if the firing pin had been drawn back to any extent and +then released, would it have left a mark on one of the cartridges? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is--yes and no. It depends on how far it is drawn +back. As soon as the hammer internally clears the rebound block, the +hammer is then able to go forward and it probably would have fired. +But up to that point, the hammer is held back from striking, it +cannot--under normal conditions--be made to fire a cartridge. + +However, it has been found with this particular weapon, a drop of +approximately 3 feet on the hammer would fire a cartridge in the +chamber. + +Representative FORD. How far back does the hammer have to be drawn in +order to fire? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That can be shown very easily by holding the cylinder. +By holding the cylinder, that distance can be seen, which is +approximately 3/8 to 1/2 inch. + +Mr. EISENBERG. The witness is demonstrating. + +The hammer, as he says, is going back about 3/8 of an inch. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Once you allow the cylinder to rotate, then the rebound +block is pushed out of the way, as you can see. Then you can cock the +weapon. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you demonstrate for us the sound which would be +heard if you held the cylinder, pulled back, and then released the +trigger? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. A snapping sound can definitely be heard. + +Mr. EISENBERG. There is a very audible snapping sound. Would that +snap--that amount of snap--leave a mark on the base of the cartridge +case against which the firing pin---- + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Under these conditions it could not leave a mark, +because the rebound block is in the way. + +Mr. EISENBERG. When you say rebound block, this is a block between the +firing pin and the base of the cartridge case? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; it is the block that is forcing the trigger +to go forward after it is pulled back. You see, your trigger will snap +back. It is done by a spring in the block. + +Mr. EISENBERG. To put it differently, this block would prevent the +firing pin from emerging from its hole? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. That is exactly it. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, could the firing pin emerge from its hole without +having traveled a considerable distance back? That is, to say, at what +point does the rebound block release the hammer? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. At approximately--well, right there you can hear it. +That is a good half inch. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you pull it back and then release that half an +inch to disengage the rebound block? + +(The witness did so.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. If the firing pin hit the cartridge with that amount of +force, do you believe the cartridge would be fired? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is there any possibility it would not be fired? Any +substantial possibility? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It would still make a mark. + +Mr. EISENBERG. It would make a mark, at any rate? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Let me clarify it. It still will not fire because the +block will go forward. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What will go forward? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. In other words, the trigger has to be pulled through +the whole cycle in a Smith---- + +Mr. EISENBERG. In order to disengage---- + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Either that, or cocked before the block will be out of +the way. When you pull the trigger and you don't release it or if it is +in the cocked position and the trigger is pulled and not released, the +hammer will stay forward. The firing pin will stay forward, so you can +see it out through the breech face, as long as the trigger is pulled. +Then when you release the trigger, the rebound block throws your +trigger forward, so the weapon can be fired again. + +Mr. EISENBERG. You are modifying what you had said previously? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And you do that upon closer examination of the weapon? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No; it is on the basis of trying to describe an +internal part without seeing it. If you would care to, I can show +you what it looks like. I have a photograph of the National Rifle +Association breakdown. It would be easier to explain if I could show +you what I am referring to. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you, please? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Before you refer to this diagram, could I take a look at +it? + +Congressman Ford, could I have that diagram admitted into evidence? + +Representative FORD. It will be admitted. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That will be 593. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 593, and +received in evidence.) + +Representative FORD. Mr. Eisenberg, do you want the whole article? + +Mr. EISENBERG. I think we might as well put the whole article in, yes. + +(To Mr. Cunningham.) Perhaps it would be easiest if you came around +here, since the diagram is a small one. + +Now, the diagram which you are referring to is on page 61, the second +page of this Exhibit 593? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Right. + +As you can see, it is a diagram with the sideplate removed, which is +this portion right here. It is the right-hand side of the weapon. +(Witness pointing to revolver.) We are looking down on it with the +sideplate on. These four screws hold on the sideplate. + +When you pull the trigger of---- + +Mr. EISENBERG. The sideplate is marked 20 over here? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes--No. 20 is the sideplate. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That is in the diagram. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No. 42 in the diagram is the trigger. There is a sear +arrangement on the trigger, attached to the trigger. If you cock it, +the sear arrangement will go up into a notch on the hammer right there, +and hold it back--right in here. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That is number---- + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. You see, this is the sear. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, could you use numbers? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. No. 39 is the sear, and the sear is attached to +the trigger, which is No. 42 in the diagram. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, we are referring to the first page of the exhibit. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. When the trigger is pulled on this particular weapon, +or if the hammer is drawn back, there is a notch on the hammer which +is engaged by the sear. When the hammer is back you have to pull the +trigger to disengage the sear mechanism from the hammer. When you pull +back and it is in the notch, that is known as single-action firing. + +Also, No. 30 in the diagram is known as the rebound slide or block, +and this rebound slide is positioned right behind the trigger on an +internal part of the weapon. When the trigger is pulled, the recoil +slide runs in a horizontal direction. As you can see by the larger +drawing right here--it is a small camming action. It comes up, and is +being pushed back. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That is in the middle of the second page of the exhibit. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Now, do you see the rounded portion of the hammer right +here, right in front of the notch? + +Mr. EISENBERG. That is No.---- + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Number--on No. 42, the hammer, on the bottom, right +next to the notch that the sear engages, is a rounded portion. That +is--in actuality, this rebound slide acts as an internal safety, so the +hammer cannot go forward unless the trigger is pulled or it is cocked, +because it is in the way. It cannot go all the way forward, due to the +fact that--right there you can see it very plainly in the schematic +numbered drawing on page 2. + +Mr. EISENBERG. The number you are pointing to is what? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It is on the trigger, number---- + +Mr. EISENBERG. Forty-two? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Not trigger--the hammer, No. 34. + +By the way, on the prior 42 I meant 34. I got the wrong number. I was +referring to the right piece, but the wrong number. + +But you can see this little--it is like a curved portion. It prevents +the hammer from going any further forward. The firing pin will not come +out of the hole in the breech face. + +Now, as soon as you pull the hammer back, the rebound slide, No. 30, is +out of the way. + +Also, when you pull the weapon through double action, that slide pushes +back, and your sear doesn't even touch the groove in the hammer, but it +just keeps on going right on through. In other words, you are pulling +the trigger strictly against the mainspring all the way. When it is on +the notch, it is being held, and the only pressure needed, is to take +off the sear. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cunningham, to focus this line of questioning, +Officer McDonald, who has reported that he was in a struggle with Lee +Harvey Oswald on November 22d, while Oswald was in possession of this +revolver, has stated that--I am reading now from an affidavit, from a +letter from Officer McDonald to Mr. J. E. Curry, chief of police of the +Dallas Police Force, dated December 3, 1963. + +He states in this letter that as he came in contact with Oswald, "I +managed to get my right hand on the pistol over the suspect's hand. I +could feel his hand on the trigger. I then got a secure grip on the +butt of the pistol. I jerked the pistol and as it was clearing the +suspect's clothing and grip, I heard the snap of the hammer, and the +pistol crossed over my left cheek. I marked the pistol and six rounds +at central station. The primer of one round was dented on misfire at +the time of the struggle with the suspect." + +Now, in light of your examination of this weapon, and your discussion, +could you comment on this statement? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I personally have fired this weapon numerous times, as +well as Special Agents Robert Frazier and Charles Killion. At no time +did we ever attempt to fire this weapon that it misfired. It operated +excellently and every time we have tried to fire it, it has fired. + +It is very possible when he says that he reached across, and he grabbed +it, that he locked the cylinder, which I think any trained police +officer would do. You want to stop this cylinder from rotating. As +soon as you do that, you have actually stopped the hammer falling on a +live round, because if the hammer is allowed to go forward again, and +it hasn't gotten into the cocked position, the rebound slide, as I was +stating before, would block the firing pin from striking the primer of +the cartridge. + +Mr. EISENBERG. As I understand it, the cylinder is so interconnected +with the trigger, that the trigger cannot be pulled all the way back +when the cylinder has been firmly grasped? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And if the hammer has not been pulled all the way back, +the rebound slide will not allow the firing pin to strike the cartridge? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Officer McDonald's statement that the primer of +one round was dented on misfire: as far as you can tell, could this +statement be confirmed? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; we found nothing to indicate that this +weapon's firing pin had struck the primer of any of these cartridges. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, if the firing pin had struck the primer, it could +only have been after the trigger was pulled all the way back, under the +discussion you have just given us, is that correct? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Or after cocking. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Or after it had been cocked and pulled? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; if it is in the cocked position, grabbing the +cylinder will do you no good; due to the fact that in the very +operation of cocking this weapon, the cylinder is rotated, and it is +ready to be fired. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, in either event, the hammer would have traveled +almost to the outermost extremity to which it can go. That is, the +hammer would have traveled back all the way, whether it was cocked or +fired in a double-action manner. If that had happened, what would the +likelihood be that upon returning to the cartridge case, it would not +fire the cartridge case--that upon returning to the cartridge, the +cartridge would not be fired? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. You mean actually the hammer had gone all the way +through its cycle? + +Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I can only say that from my examination internally, as +well as having fired this weapon--I found no reason why you would get a +misfire with this weapon. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, if a man had put his hand between the hammer and +the point at which the hammer enters, with the firing pin, into the +breech face, would that stop the weapon from firing? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes and no. It is very possible that you can do it. And +it hurts, by the way, because the mainspring in this one--you can see +the indentation in my thumb--is a very strong mainspring. It would be +possible. You could put something in there. + +Now, the question is when you pull that object out, would there be +enough distance and enough force to set off the primer? + +That is quite a moot point, because you could grab the hammer and +recock it. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Apart from that question, would the man's finger or +whatever object he stuck in there be firmly fixed for a second or two, +between the hammer and the breech face? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It could be. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Would he feel the impact? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. He would definitely feel the impact--if he had a piece +of tissue of his hand in between. Now, if a piece of material, of +course, went between it which I don't know how it could happen--if you +were struggling over the gun, and he said he grabbed the gun--I don't +know how he could have anything except a portion of his hand, and I am +sure he would feel it if the trigger was pulled. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Finally, if he had just grasped the cylinder, and Oswald +had pulled back on the trigger, could you demonstrate the sound which +might have been heard? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; you can hold it, and you get a snapping sound--if +the gun is grabbed away forcefully, and he would be really grabbing +hard. So there could have been an attempt to shoot and a snap would be +heard. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. The only thing which is unlikely is that the primer +would be dented on the misfire? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. You would not get any denting if the cylinder was held +and the gun was jerked forcibly out of Oswald's hands. You would hear +the snap, but you would get no mark on the primer whatsoever. + +The same thing he could hear if he jerked it out of his hands and he +accidentally, somehow, hit the hammer--you would still get a noise, a +snapping sound. But the firing pin would not come in contact with the +primer of the cartridge. + +Representative FORD. Because of the discussion we had a few minutes ago? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. Using the diagram that was inserted as Exhibit 593. + +Mr. EISENBERG. One final question. Officer McDonald says in this +letter, "I then got a secure grip on the butt of the pistol." + +Now, would that grip in itself in any way interfere with the action of +the pistol--the revolver? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I don't know what he means by that. + +Mr. EISENBERG. If he means what he says, that is, if he got a secure +grip on the butt---- + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. If he got a secure grip on the butt, that would take +him away. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Take him away from what? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That would take him away from the cylinder. If you are +fighting over a weapon, the first thing is to get it off of you and +then get hold of the cylinder. And then you can get both hands on the +gun to jerk it away. That is what I would do. + +As I say, it is the way we are taught. You want to get the gun off of +you first, so you are not in direct line, and then go in and attempt to +get it away from the person. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, suppose the gun was pulled away from Oswald as +Oswald had his grip on the trigger, so that he could not get the +trigger through the complete cycle. Would there be a snapping noise +made? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Definitely. If you locked the cylinder and jerked it +away, you would get a snapping noise. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Suppose you did not lock the cylinder, but for some +reason or other the full trigger cycle was not gone through? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Then you would also get it. It would be difficult, but +you could get it. + +Mr. EISENBERG. How hard do you have to pull on that trigger in order to +fire the weapon? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. For double action--that is, without cocking, it is +approximately 11 to 12 pounds, which is normal for this type of weapon. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, I handed you earlier four cartridge cases in +a plastic envelope marked Q-74, Q-75, Q-76, and Q-77, also marked +C47-C50. Are you familiar with these cartridge cases? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am. I have previously looked at them. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Do they have your mark on them? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They do. Right on the side of each one, right there. + +Mr. EISENBERG. When did you receive these cartridge cases? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. These cartridge cases were received from the Dallas +office of the FBI on November 30, 1963. + +Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, I would like to state that these +cartridge cases were found in the immediate proximity of the site at +which Officer Tippit was killed. They were found on the ground near the +street where Officer Tippit was killed on November 22. + +Representative FORD. These are the ones that were found in the street +near the automobile? + +Mr. EISENBERG. Well, either in the street or in a lawn in front of a +private residence, or semiapartment house. + +Representative FORD. I see. In other words, they were possibly some of +those that were on the lawn in the front of 400? + +Mr. EISENBERG. Yes, sir; again, for the record only, since this witness +is unable to testify as to where they were picked up. The mechanism of +this revolver is such that the shells are not ejected until the user +decides to eject them--unlike a bolt-action rifle where the cartridge +must be ejected where you shoot from. + +Mr. Chairman, I would like to have these four cartridge cases +introduced into evidence as 594. + +Representative FORD. They may be admitted. + +(The articles referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 594, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cunningham, could you describe the make of +these cartridge cases? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Two of these cartridge cases are Remington-Peters .38 +Special cartridge cases. The other two cartridge cases are Western .38 +Special cartridge cases. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you examined earlier six bullets which I told you +had been--six cartridges which I told you had been taken from the +chamber of the revolver which we have been looking at. + +Those cartridges were divided into three Remington-Peters and three +Western, were they not? + +(At this point, Representative Boggs entered the hearing room.) + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. So that--or 50-50. So that the division is the +same, the division of the cartridge cases is the same, as between +Remington-Peters and Western, as the division of the cartridges +found--which I told you were found in the chamber? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you examine the cartridge cases in Exhibit 594 in an +attempt to determine whether they had been fired in Exhibit 143, the +revolver, to the exclusion of all other revolvers? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I did. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you tell us your conclusion? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. As a result of my examination, it is my opinion that +those four cartridge cases, Commission Exhibit 594, were fired in the +revolver, Commission Exhibit 143, to the exclusion of all other weapons. + +Mr. EISENBERG. When did you perform this examination, Mr. Cunningham? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. On November 30, 1963. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And how did you make the examination? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I first marked these cartridge cases upon receiving +them. There were four. I would like to state, first of all that +Special Agents Frazier and Killion also independently examined these +four cartridge cases, and made the same comparisons that I am going +to state. I am telling you what I found--although they independently +arrived at the same conclusion. + +The cartridge cases were first marked and examined for the presence of +any individual characteristic marks on these cartridge cases whereby it +would be possible to identify them as having been fired in a weapon. I +then test-fired Commission Exhibit 143, using similar ammunition, and +microscopically compared the four cartridge case--one at a time--that +is Commission Exhibit 594--with the tests obtained from the revolver, +Commission Exhibit 143. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I hand you here two cartridge cases, and ask you whether +you are familiar with these cartridge cases? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And can you describe these cartridge cases to us? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. One is a Western .38 Special cartridge case. The +other is a Winchester .38 Special cartridge case. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And how did you get possession of these cartridge cases? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. These were test-fired in Commission Exhibit No. 143, by +myself. + +Mr. EISENBERG. So these are the test cartridges you were referring to? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That was a portion of them; yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have these admitted as Commission +Exhibit 595? + +Representative FORD. They will be admitted. + +(The articles referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 595, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I also would like to state that we were test firing +Remington-Peters, also. + +Mr. EISENBERG. How many test cartridges were fired, Mr. Cunningham? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. To begin with, three. And we have since fired the +weapon many times. + +Representative BOGGS. How many cartridges were fired by Oswald? + +Mr. EISENBERG. We are going to get into that. This is a difficult +question which you are going to have to make a decision on. So I would +rather develop that slowly. + +I notice that one of the cartridge cases in Exhibit 595 is split on the +side, Mr. Cunningham. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Why is that? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is due to the oversized chambers of this revolver. +As I previously testified, the weapon was originally chambered for the +.38 S&W, which is a wider cartridge than .38 Special. And when a .38 +Special is fired in this particular weapon, the case form fits to the +shape of each chamber. And in one of those cartridges, the metal just +let go. Normally it does not; however this one particular case split +slightly. + +Representative FORD. Does that have any impact on the rest of the +operation? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir. As a matter of fact, I test-fired the weapon +originally, and I didn't even know it had split until I tried to eject +it. + +Mr. EISENBERG. You mentioned before, by the way, that there had been no +misfires with this weapon. Approximately how many times was the weapon +fired altogether? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I would have no way of knowing exactly, but I imagine +we are approaching close to a hundred times by now. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And no misfires? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. And no misfires. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cunningham, did you take photographs of the +cartridge cases which you have just identified as having been fired +from 143, and the cartridge cases which are Commission Exhibit No. 595? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I did. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you make your identification on the basis of the +photographs or on the basis of your examination under the microscope? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. My conclusions were arrived at strictly on the basis +of my examinations. These photographs in no way entered into the +identification and are strictly for demonstrative purposes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you show us these photographs, Mr. Cunningham? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Let's take them one at a time, and let's introduce +them as exhibits, one at a time. I have here--you have given me five +photographs. Did you take each of these photographs? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. As a matter of fact; I did. I personally took these. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And these are photographs of what? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They are photographs of the individual characteristic +marks on the base and in the firing-pin impression on test cartridge +cases obtained from Oswald's revolver, and also the marks on the base +and in the firing-pin impression on the cartridge cases, Commission +Exhibit No. 594. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like these admitted, if you would, +as 596, 597, 598, 599, and 600. + +Representative FORD. They may be admitted. + +(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 596 +through 600, and received in evidence.) + +Representative FORD. Will the witness explain to the Commission what +they mean? + +Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; he will. Did you also make a photograph of the +breech face of the weapon, Mr. Cunningham? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I did. I didn't take this photograph. I was present +when it was taken. I have compared the negative with the actual breech +face of Commission Exhibit 143, and I found it to be a true and +accurate reproduction. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you show us that photograph? May I have that +admitted as 601, Mr. Chairman? + +Representative FORD. It may be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 601, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you show us the area of the revolver which +corresponds to the area shown in the photograph, Exhibit 601? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. The cylinder was first removed to facilitate +the photograph. That is very easily done by removing the forward +sideplate screw, which is just above the trigger, which allows the +crane to slide right out, and the cylinder removed. + +The photograph was taken from the right side, looking in toward the +firing-pin hole. + +Representative BOGGS. Just the way you are holding the revolver now? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; just the way I am holding it now. + +Representative BOGGS. With the cylinder removed? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. With the cylinder removed. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, there is a cylindrical-shaped object in the center +of that picture, Mr. Cunningham. Could you describe what that is--right +in the center of the picture? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is known by two different names. It is known as a +hammer-nose bushing, or a recoil block. It is--Smith and Wesson presses +this particular block in. It forms the hole through which the firing +pin comes out of the breech face. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That is, the firing pin strikes the center of the +cartridge, or the primer, as it is called? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Which causes the cartridge to fire. Now, what is the +magnification of the photograph of the breech face? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Of the breech face, it is approximately 17 times. + +Mr. EISENBERG. There are a number of markings or lines on this breech +face. Are these the microscopic characteristics which reproduce on the +cartridge cases? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And are the microscopic characteristics of this breech +face individual to this weapon, to the exclusion of all other weapons? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They are. + +Mr. EISENBERG. This is your method of determining that a given +cartridge case has been fired from a given weapon? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The breech face marks, as well as the individual +imperfections in the firing pin. + +Representative BOGGS. Let me ask a very elementary question, the answer +to which I used to know years ago, but I have forgotten. Just exactly +what does the firing pin do? What happens after that strikes? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Well, it is easier to start with the cartridge itself. +The components of a cartridge are a bullet, a cartridge case, a primer +in the base of the cartridge case, and powder. + +Now, the primer is made out of a very soft metal that can be dented. +These primers at manufacture are filled with, basically, an explosive. +For instance, Remington-Peters cartridges have PETN, which is one of +Du Pont's explosives. RDX is used as one of the components of Western +cartridge cases, as well as lead styphnate, lead azides, and other +explosive materials. + +When the firing pin strikes, there is a small explosion. Fire is given +off---- + +Representative BOGGS. How does that bring about the explosion? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It is sensitive to detonation by a sharp blow. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That is, the primer is sensitive? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; it is an explosive. To differentiate from the +powder, which is not explosive. Powder burns. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, I have taken Commission Exhibit No. 591, which +consists of an unfired cartridge, and there is a round circle in the +middle of the base of that cartridge. Is that the primer? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. That is actually a separate entity that has been +pressed into a hole in the base of the cartridge case. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And that is more sensitive to shock than the powder in +the cartridge case itself? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. Powder is relatively insensitive. You don't set +off powder by a blow. + +Mr. EISENBERG. But the primer is quite sensitive? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is normally. I am talking about a normal blow. +The primer is very sensitive. I just named a few of the components, +but there are many other compounds in priming mixtures, which are +considered secret by each company. But I know that they are explosive +mixtures. And the actual striking of the firing pin--with enough +force--causes a small detonation to occur. The fire given off, goes +through holes in the base, and into where the powder is, and starts the +powder burning. It is the gases that are given off when powder burns, +which actually cause the bullet to move forward--the pressure builds up +behind it, and the bullet goes forward. + +Representative BOGGS. That is a very good explanation. Thank you. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, I wonder whether you could review the +pictures with us, and discuss some of the markings which you found in +those pictures that led you to decide that the cartridge cases shown +therein have been fired in the revolver we have been discussing. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. The first photograph is a photograph of the +breech-face marks, the individual characteristic marks remaining on +test cartridge cases obtained from the revolver, and on the C-50 +cartridge case that was recovered from the scene. C-50 is on the left. +C-15 is on the right. And the hairline, the magnified hairline down the +center separates the two cartridge cases. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, is the invariable procedure to put the test +cartridge on the right and the suspect cartridge on the left? Or at +least is that your standard procedure? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I usually put the suspect on the left. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Well, in the photographs at any rate, in all the +photographs we are going to see, the test cartridge is on the right, +and the suspect cartridge is on the left? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Usually. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And what is the magnification of this photograph? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It is approximately 91 times. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you go on, please? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. On the left you will see the stamping, "SP", which +is in the cartridge case itself. And over here next to the hairline you +will see the individual characteristic marks. And you will see similar +marks continuing on the other side of the hairline. + +On the C-15, the revolver side, you will see a dark portion running +vertically down through. That is the space that the Congressman was +asking about--how it fits the primer. That is the small space at the +top where the primer fits into the base of the cartridge. And over here +to the right of that dark mark you will see a lighter colored object +with more individual characteristic marks, that is actually the primer, +the individual characteristic marks on the primer of the test cartridge +case. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, as I understand it, in effect this picture can +be viewed as a composite cartridge? That is, the picture on the left +begins where the picture on the right ends, in terms of position on the +cartridge case? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. In essence; yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And the point of the picture is to show that when you +make this composite, the lines on each case show up as if there were no +composite at all, but as if they were simply one case, because they are +so close together in microscopic markings? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; in proximity. And they are brought together. + +Representative BOGGS. And so similar? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. + +Representative BOGGS. What is the magnification again? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is approximately 91 times. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Are there any dissimilarities on the two--on the test +and the suspect cartridge cases, Mr. Cunningham? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; there are always dissimilarities. However, +the similarities so outweigh the dissimilarities that it is an +identification. If there are no dissimilarities, I would be suspicious +that it would be faked--using the same photograph and just cut and put +together. + +There are always dissimilarities. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain why there are always dissimilarities +when the two cartridge cases are fired in the very same weapon? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The metal is different; one cartridge case is slightly +harder than another; for some reason the cartridge case wasn't driven +back, upon firing, into the breech face exactly the same way. In other +words, these marks are reproducing, but you don't get exactly the same +hit. It would not be possible to get exactly the same hit time after +time with different cartridge cases. + +Representative FORD. What ratio of similarities and dissimilarities do +you have to have? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. There is no ratio. Based upon the examiner's training +and experience, he comes to the conclusion that a particular cartridge +case or bullet has been fired from a particular weapon. As in this +photograph, you can see the dissimilarity is very slight. These are +excellent marks. + +Representative FORD. There was never any doubt in your mind, then? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. None whatsoever. + +Mr. EISENBERG. You say these are particularly strong marks? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. These are very, very, good marks. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, these marks are on the brass, so to speak, of the +cartridge case, rather than in the primer? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; that is correct. Actually, it is brass, it is +nickelplated brass. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is that unusual, to be able to pick up such strong marks +in the brass as opposed to the primer of the cartridge case? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It is not really unusual; no. It depends upon the +particular weapon. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you also examine the microscopic markings on the +primer? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I did. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And you found what? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I could identify the weapon on the basis of the +imperfections, individual characteristic marks, in the firing-pin +impression. + +Mr. EISENBERG. The firing-pin impression. And what about the area of +the primer around the firing-pin impression? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. In other words, each of these three areas--the brass, +the primer, and the firing-pin impression--carries individually +characteristic microscopic marks which would be the basis of +identification? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, you cannot make a flat statement. + +Mr. EISENBERG. No; in this case. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. In this particular case, I knew at the time I was +examining it, all of the firing-pin impressions were excellent, and +some portions of the breech-face marks were. But you cannot say they +will mark in exactly the same place, due to the fact that these cases +will mark in different areas, they are different cartridges, they have +been fired at a different time. You will get good areas, and then in +another area your marks will not be sufficient. In other words, it is +just the way the cartridge case was driven back at the time of the +explosion in the primer, and the bullet is fired. + +They can hit slightly different, hit deeper on one side, be lighter +on the other. When a primer is set in a little bit deeper, it will +not pick up these marks on the primer part, whereas the firing-pin +impression can be excellent--one portion of the case will be excellent. +But each one is a different examination. And many times they will mark +in different places. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you show us the next photograph? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. This is Commission document No. 597. This is +a photograph, photomicrograph, rather, of the breech face marks on two +cartridge cases. The one on the left is C-49, which is our number C-49, +and the one on the right of the hairline is a test cartridge case from +this revolver. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What is the magnification? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. This one was approximately 120 times. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is the magnification equal on both sides? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It is. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is that true of all the pictures you are showing us +today? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. The negative is taken at exactly the same +time. You are photographing through a single eyepiece, with a focusable +hairline down the middle, whatever is on both stages of your comparison +microscope. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you turn that picture around again? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. These marking are also on the brass, or outside of the +primer? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And again it is a sort of a composite photograph? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, these markings seem a little less distinct than the +others. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It is in a different area. On this particular case, the +marks are excellent. You can see down in here some nice fine marks, and +then the heavier marks coming across there. They are good marks. + +Representative FORD. Could you point out, as you look at the +photograph, what you consider good similarities, which would help you +in the identification? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. Now, this is not the only point of +similarity. These strictly demonstrate the type of marks. There are +many more marks on these cartridge cases, all over the base of the +cartridge cases, as well as in the firing-pin impressions. But Mr. +Eisenberg asked that we have a photograph to demonstrate the type of +marks on each particular cartridge case. + +Representative FORD. This is only illustrative, then? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. My identification was not based on +this picture. It was based on my complete microscopic examination +and comparison of test cartridge cases from the revolver with this +particular cartridge case. + +Representative FORD. Could you show me the similarities? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. You see, you have your large--it is slightly out +of focus up towards this end---- + +Mr. EISENBERG. Excuse me, as you demonstrate this, could you mark with +circles and with a number what you are talking about, so when the +record is looked at it is clear what you are talking about? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. All right--up here, near the top, you will find a very +deep ridge, which I will mark "1." As you are coming down, you will +find another real deep ridge, which I will mark "2." + +When you consider this is 120 times, this is actually quite close +together, except it has been magnified--you have a set of marks +resembling "railroad tracks," which I will mark "3." + +You will find over here--you go down to your next step. There are +similarities in between there. The next big set of "railroad tracks" I +will mark "4." + +Then you move down, and you will find another similarity, four nice +marks down near the bottom. This whole area is similar. You are going +out of focus, but you can see these "railroad tracks." They are running +along very nicely, and that is being marked "No. 5." + +The next photograph is a photograph--on the left of the hairline---- + +Mr. EISENBERG. What Commission exhibit is that? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No. 598. + +On the left of the hairline is our number C-47, the cartridge case. On +the right is a test from the C-15 revolver, which is Commission Exhibit +143. These also are breech-face marks in the base of the cartridge +cases. + +On the right you can see the space between the primer and the base of +the cartridge case, and also the individual characteristic marks in the +primer. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What is the magnification? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. This is approximately 123-1/2 times. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Congressman Ford, would you care for a discussion of +this? + +Representative FORD. No. The one previously gave the basis. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Actually, this seems to be a slightly larger area. You +have again the same "railroad tracks," all up and down, going across +the two cartridge cases. + +Representative FORD. To the layman that seems even more---- + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Demonstrative, yes. I don't know if you saw the +photographs of the cartridge cases in the rifle, the assassination +rifle. Those marks are just as distinctive as the more demonstrative +marks in this particular breech face. But to a trained examiner, they +stand out. They are harder to see than those on these particular +photographs. And even in these photographs, the photograph you were +asking me, they were not quite as vivid as they are on this photograph. + +But there, again, it goes back to what I told you--each cartridge case +will strike the breech face in a slightly different way, and you don't +get complete similarity. + +Mr. EISENBERG. To illustrate your point, Mr. Cunningham, I hand you +Commission Exhibit 565, which is a photograph, which was explained +yesterday, of the cartridge case fired in the rifle, and a test +cartridge. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, this demonstrates it very well. + +This is the very rough surface on the bolt of the assassination rifle. + +Mr. EISENBERG. The bolt face? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; the bolt face, and it is just as distinctive as +these striae on my photographs of the breech-face marks of the revolver. + +Mr. EISENBERG. By "striae" you mean lines? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; just lines. But it is more difficult to see, due +to the character of these marks--even though one type of mark is just +as characteristic as the other type. + +Mr. EISENBERG. As I understand your testimony, to the trained observer +the photograph shown--the cartridges shown in the photographs on 565 +can be as easily identified with each other as the cartridges shown on, +let's say, 598? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. But to the layman it is easier to see the similarities +on 598, with its striae, than 565 with its grosser imperfections? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; due to the type of marks on each of the +cartridge cases, one is easier for the layman to see. + +The next photograph is Commission document No. 599. On the left of the +hairline is our number C-48, the cartridge case. On the right is the +test cartridge case from Oswald's revolver. + +Now, here you asked about what happens--somebody asked what happens +on the other side. Here you have the other side. In this particular +cartridge case---- + +Mr. EISENBERG. That is the other half of the cartridge case? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. In other words, you are seeing the primer, +the space between the primer and the brass on the cartridge case +itself--on the questioned cartridge case this time--and the base of +the cartridge case of the test is on the right. It looks like it is +one. It is just the opposite side of the cartridge case from the other +photographs. + +In other words, you take the photograph of the most demonstrative +marks--which look real good, naturally. The examination is of all the +marks. That is the big difference. And this time you will see--it is +very demonstrative--on each side of the hairline, a great deal of +similarity between these marks. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And the magnification here? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It is approximately 96 times. + +Mr. RHYNE. Why do you vary the magnification? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The magnification of every photograph you take, sir, +depends on the length of the bellows of the camera. The microscope +will have a set magnification. But each time that you focus the +length of the bellows can change, which will increase or decrease the +magnification. Also with some photographs you mask off areas which are +out of focus. You certainly would not want to print a whole negative +where you have distortion. You bring into focus one small portion of +the surface of that bullet. + +If, say, one surface of the bullet is slightly flattened and the other +surface is rounded--the rounded surface will be going out of focus much +faster than the flattened side, and it would be very confusing. That is +the type of thing. You mask differently. + +Then when you have the negatives enlarged, you can enlarge one negative +more than you do the other. So it can be based either on the length of +the bellows, or on the amount you have enlarged it. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is that all the photographs? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, there is one more. + +This photograph is a photograph of the firing-pin impression of the +C-49 cartridge case, and the firing-pin impression on the test from +Oswald's revolver, and this is Commission document 600. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And the magnification? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. 120 times, approximately. + +Now, here you have very distinctive marks, but it is much more +difficult for a layman to pick them out. That is the reason I have +circled these marks and numbered them, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, on each side +of the hairline. On the left is C-49, and on the right is the cartridge +case obtained from C-143. + +You have this very large, very distinctive imperfection. + +Mr. EISENBERG. You are pointing to circle number 1? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. In number 1. Also, in number 2, it looks like a little +set of railroad tracks, and this one with the same shape coming down +through. You can see this little piece and this little piece. Over here +you have a real small "railroad track." + +Mr. EISENBERG. That is number 3? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is number 3. And it looks like a little hump or +bump, and that is very distinctive. + +There is a slight overlapping here, but you can see it is sort of a =V= +shape--in number 4, very distinctive. Down here you have a =Z= line +with a line through it, number 6. I only brought those out to show six +of the similarities. If you go through you can pick out places in the +firing-pin impressions, that are similar, by yourself. + +Mr. EISENBERG. On the top of each of these photos, C-49 and C-15, there +is a large comma-shaped indentation, or comma-shaped mark. What is that +caused by, Mr. Cunningham? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is caused by a very large imperfection--a very +distinctive imperfection in the firing pin itself. And here it is. + +Here I am looking at Commission document 601, the breech face and +firing pin. If you will look at the firing pin in this photograph, you +will see over on this side, this very large imperfection. It is like +a facet--it is a flattened side. It shows up in the photograph of the +firing pin. + +It is indented--since it is missing from the firing pin, it will show +as a flattened area in the firing-pin impression. In other words, what +is concave on the firing pin itself, will be convex in the firing-pin +impression. + +Mr. EISENBERG. If there are no further questions on the cartridge +cases, I will move on to the bullets. + +Representative FORD. Mr. Boggs? + +Representative BOGGS. Just one question. What you are saying is that +there is no doubt about the fact that the cartridges that you examined +came from this revolver? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. + +Representative BOGGS. And, of course, there is no question about the +fact that this was Mr. Oswald's revolver. Is that so? + +Mr. EISENBERG. That will be proved, I hope, before the end of the +hearings. This witness cannot himself testify. + +Representative BOGGS. I understand that. I am asking you. + +Mr. EISENBERG. There is no question, I don't think, about that. That +will be the subject of testimony. + +Representative BOGGS. I know--we are not following the exact rules of +evidence around here. + +Mr. EISENBERG. We will connect it up. + +Representative BOGGS. In that connection--how many bullets were +recovered? + +Mr. EISENBERG. Four were recovered from the body of the officer. But as +you will see from the testimony which we will get into right now, that +doesn't mean four shots were fired, because there is a slight problem +here. I would rather have the witness develop it. + +Representative BOGGS. You are being very mysterious now, but it is all +right. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, I hand you four bullets in plastic cases +marked C-251, C-252, Q-13, and C-253, which have also certain other +markings on them, and I ask you if you are familiar with these bullets. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Are your marks on these bullets? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, they are. + +Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, I would like to state these four bullets +were recovered from the body of Officer Tippit. + +When did you receive these bullets, Mr. Cunningham? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The Q-13 bullet was delivered to the Laboratory the +first time on the morning of November 23d, and it was delivered to the +Laboratory by Special Agent Vincent Drain of the Dallas office of the +FBI. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And the remaining bullets? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. By the way, it was returned to Dallas, and then it was +returned to the Laboratory, delivered again by Special Agent Vincent +Drain, of the Dallas office, also, Special Agent Warren De Brueys. They +delivered our Q-13 a second time on November 27th. + +Representative FORD. When you say "our," what do you mean by "our"? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. In other words, to facilitate reporting in the +Laboratory, we usually give these items a Q or a K number. A Q number +is a questioned item, like a bullet from a body, and a known is a gun, +the K is a known, like a weapon. + +That is for reporting purposes. But since this case began, we have so +much evidence, and we have received so much evidence, it was considered +practical to reassign a C number by us--like Mr. Eisenberg said, they +are C-253, C-262, and C-251. They also have a Q number. Q-13 is C-13. +That is the reason why I said "our" Q-13. + +Mr. EISENBERG. When did you examine Q-13, Mr. Cunningham? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. November 23d, the first time. That was when I made my +examination. It was returned on the other date. But it was examined on +11-23. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Q-13 has in it a brass colored object, as well as a +bullet--that is, the box containing Q-13, your Q-13. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. That was identified as the button--the +button--from the coat of Officer Tippit. The bullet struck that button +and when the bullet was removed from the body, the button was also +removed. + +Representative BOGGS. Went right in? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. I have no first-hand knowledge. But that is +what it was identified as. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like these four bullets admitted +as 602, 603, 604, and 605. + +Representative FORD. They will be admitted. + +(The articles referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 602 +through 605, and received in evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. When did you receive what are now marked 603, 604, and +605, Mr. Cunningham? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They were received in the FBI Laboratory on March 16th +of this year, and they were submitted to the Laboratory by the Dallas +office of the FBI. + +Mr. EISENBERG. When were they examined? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They were examined on March 17, 1964. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain the great time difference between +the receipt and examination of the first bullet and the receipt and +examination of the last three bullets? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. At your request, you asked us to postpone the +examination of these three bullets in order to facilitate other +examinations you wished more expedited than the examinations of these +bullets. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now you are explaining the time between the receipt and +the examination? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, can you explain why these three bullets---- + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Oh, between the first submission and the second? + +Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; between the submission of the first bullet, and the +submission to you of the second three bullets. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Well, it is my understanding the first bullet +was turned over to the FBI office in Dallas by the Dallas Police +Department. They reportedly said this was the only bullet that was +recovered, or that they had. Later at the request of this Commission, +we went back to the Dallas Police Department and found in their files +that they actually had three other bullets. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, did you examine these four bullets to determine +whether they had been fired in the revolver, Exhibit No. 143, to the +exclusion of all other weapons? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am sorry. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you examine the four bullets which have just been +marked into evidence to determine whether those four bullets had been +fired in the revolver, No. 143? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I did. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And can you give us your results, your conclusions? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. + +First of all, Commission Exhibit 602, which is our Q-13 bullet, I found +to be a .38 Special, copper-coated lead bullet of Western-Winchester +manufacture which had been fired from a barrel having five lands and +grooves, right twist. I also found the other three bullets---- + +Mr. EISENBERG. 603---- + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. 603, 604, and 605, Commission Exhibits, which are +C-253, C-252, and C-251, respectively. I found that 251 and C-253---- + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you give us the Commission numbers? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Commission Exhibits 605, 603, they, too, were .38 +Special copper-coated lead bullets of Winchester-Western manufacture, +which had been fired from a barrel having five lands and grooves, right +twist. + +The grooves in the barrel ran in a right-hand direction, a right twist. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That accounts for three bullets. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. + +And Commission Exhibit 604, which is C-252, is a .38 Special +Remington-Peters lead bullet, which has been fired from a barrel having +five lands and grooves, right twist. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Winchester-Western, you say? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; that is Remington---- + +Mr. EISENBERG. Let's go over that. + +We have 603---- + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. 602, 603, and 605 are your copper-coated lead bullets +of Winchester-Western manufacture. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And 604? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. And 604 is a Remington-Peters lead bullet. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, were you able to determine whether those bullets +have been fired in this weapon? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No; I was not. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain why? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. + +First of all, Commission Exhibit No. 602 was too mutilated. There were +not sufficient microscopic marks remaining on the surface of this +bullet, due to the mutilation, to determine whether or not it had been +fired from this weapon. + +However, Commission Exhibits 603, 604, and 605 do bear microscopic +marks for comparison purposes, but it was not possible from an +examination and comparison of these bullets to determine whether or not +they had been fired--these bullets themselves--had been fired from one +weapon, or whether or not they had been fired from Oswald's revolver. + +Further, it was not possible, using .38 Special ammunition, to +determine whether or not consecutive test bullets obtained from this +revolver had been fired in this weapon. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have an opinion as to why it was impossible to +make either type of determination? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; this weapon, using .38 Special bullets, was +not producing marks consistent with each other. Each time it was fired, +the bullet would seem to pass down the barrel in a different way, +which could be due to the slightly undersized bullets in the oversized +.38 S&W barrel. It would cause an erratic passage down the barrel, +and thereby, cause inconsistent individual characteristic marks to be +impressed or scratched into the surface of the bullets. + +Representative FORD. When you say this weapon, will you identify what +you mean by "this weapon"? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. This particular revolver, Commission Exhibit 143. + +Mr. EISENBERG. So this brings us back to your earlier testimony, that +the gun had been rechambered for a .38 Special, which is slightly +smaller in one respect than the .38 S&W, but it had not been rebarreled +for the .38 Special? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. + +The original .38 Smith and Wesson barrel is still on the weapon. + +Mr. EISENBERG. So that the .38 Special, when fired in that gun, might +wobble slightly as it passes through the barrel? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I don't know if wobble is the correct word. But as +the bullet is passing down this shortened .38 barrel, we are probably +getting an erratic passage, so the marks won't reproduce. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is it possible to say that the bullets were not fired +from this weapon, No. 143? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, it is not; since the rifling characteristics of +Commission Exhibit 143--this revolver--are the same as those present on +the four bullets. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you said that there were three bullets of +Winchester-Western manufacture, those are 602, 603, and 605, and one +bullet of R.-P. manufacture. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. However, as to the cartridge cases, Exhibit 594, you +told us there were two R.-P. cartridge cases and two Western cartridge +cases. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. So that the recovered cartridge cases, there is one more +recovered R.-P. cartridge case than there was recovered bullet? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And as to the bullets, there is one more recovered +Winchester-Western bullet than there is Winchester-Western cartridges? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. + +Representative BOGGS. How would you account for that? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The possibility exists that one bullet is missing. +Also, they may not have found one of the cartridge cases. + +Representative BOGGS. Are you able to match the bullet with the +cartridge case? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It is not possible. + +Representative BOGGS. So that while you can establish the fact that the +cartridge case, the four that we have, were fired in that gun---- + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. + +Representative BOGGS. You cannot establish the fact that the bullets +were fired in that gun? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. + +Representative BOGGS. And you cannot--having the cartridge case and the +bullet--you cannot match them up? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, you cannot. + +Representative BOGGS. There is no way to do it? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No; other than what I have said. In other words, you +can tell manufacture. But there is no way of--that I know of--of +connecting or identifying a particular bullet having been loaded into a +particular cartridge case. + +Representative BOGGS. But there is no doubt about the fact that the +four cartridge cases came from firing in that weapon? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They were fired in that weapon to the exclusion of all +other weapons. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, when you said before that you would be missing a +bullet--under the explanation you gave--would you be missing both a +bullet and a cartridge case? + +Representative BOGGS. Excuse me, before you answer that question. +What testimony have we developed with reference to this delay in the +transmission of these bullets to either the FBI or to the Commission? + +Mr. EISENBERG. Just what you have heard. Would you like to have it +developed further? + +Representative BOGGS. Well, is this within his competence? + +Mr. EISENBERG. I do not think so. I can state for the record myself +that about 2 weeks ago I requested--I made a request of Mr. Conrad, +who is the Assistant Director in charge of the FBI Laboratory--that +the three Tippit bullets which had not theretofore been examined, be +examined. At that point they had not yet been sent from the Dallas +Police to the FBI, and no request had apparently been made for them. + +Representative BOGGS. Well, the FBI obtained one almost immediately. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. + +Representative BOGGS. And then there was how long a delay before the +other three? + +Mr. EISENBERG. You have the dates there, Mr. Cunningham? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The date was--we obtained the first one on November 23, +1963, and then---- + +Representative BOGGS. The day after the killing of Officer Tippit? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; it was delivered at the same time as all the other +material. And then it was returned November 17, 1963. + +As far as the FBI is concerned, sir, we have no jurisdiction in that +case. We were doing the lab work for the Dallas Police Department, but +in the investigation of the death of Officer Tippit we do not have +jurisdiction. + +Representative BOGGS. How did the Commission ascertain that these +additional bullets were there? + +Mr. EISENBERG. Well, upon review of the underlying materials, it +developed that while one bullet had been taken out of Officer Tippit as +soon as he got to the hospital, which was apparently the first bullet, +the one examined November 23, three further bullets were taken out at +the autopsy. And since we knew that only one bullet had been examined +by the FBI, and since we knew at that point that three further bullets +had been taken out, we asked that those three further bullets be +examined. + +Representative BOGGS. What proof do you have though that these are the +bullets? + +Mr. EISENBERG. Well, again, we will have to connect it up at a +subsequent time. They were turned over to the FBI Dallas Office, were +they, Mr. Cunningham? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. + +Representative BOGGS. I am talking about the three bullets now, not the +first bullet. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; turned over to the FBI Dallas Office by the Dallas +Police. Now, we will have to connect up by deposition or testimony +before the Commission on the origin of those bullets, and proof is not +in the record now, as it is not in the case of many of these items, as +to origin. However, I have no doubt that we will be able to connect it +up and put it all in the record. + +Representative BOGGS. Has there been any inquiry made as to why there +was this delay in removing the other three bullets to the FBI? + +Mr. EISENBERG. Well, as Mr. Cunningham stated, I was told since this +was not within the jurisdiction of the FBI, they would only examine +evidence which was given to them. And since it had not been given to +them, they had not examined it. + +When I asked for it, there was a formal request made for them, and they +made their examination at that point. + +Is that your understanding, Mr. Cunningham? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct, sir. In other words, we will do +laboratory examinations for any duly constituted law-enforcement agency +upon request. And we did it in this case. We offer our facilities +but do not go out and ask for work. Since we have no jurisdiction +in the killing of Officer Tippit, we would make no investigation +and therefore, we would have no reason to go and ask for additional +bullets, until of course this Commission asked us to, and then we did +on behalf of the Commission. + +Representative BOGGS. Do you have any theory, and this is just a +theory, you understand, as to this discrepancy in these results as +compared to the cartridge cases? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Inasmuch as there are three Western bullets, you would +be missing one Western cartridge case, and one Remington bullet. You +are missing one of each. He could have missed one of the shots. I do +not know how many times he actually fired the weapon. But he could have +missed once. It is very possible that he could have. And depending +on the angle, it would be very difficult to find that bullet unless +it struck some close intervening object. Also I have no first-hand +information, again, but I believe that some neighbor turned in these +cartridge cases to the Dallas Police Department. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I believe that is correct. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. You have received a letter from the Dallas office of +the FBI just recently, I believe, setting forth that information. + +Representative BOGGS. That would account for one. There would still be +another one, would there not? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. There would be just one cartridge case missing. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is there any other logical theory which could explain +the results? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Of course, he could have had an empty cartridge case +remaining in the weapon at the time he fired it. Then he would only +have fired four shots, and then a bullet is still unaccounted for. That +would explain it also. + +Mr. EISENBERG. In other words, if he had an unejected R-P cartridge +case? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No--a Western. + +Mr. EISENBERG. You mean an unejected Western cartridge case? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And he fired two Winchester and two R-P bullets--now in +that case--and, if he then ejected he would get three Winchester and +two R-P bullets, would he not--that is, cartridge case--if he had an +extra cartridge case? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. If he had an extra cartridge case---- + +Mr. EISENBERG. He would get five cartridge cases? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. In other words, if he had an extra cartridge case, say +a Remington---- + +Mr. EISENBERG. I was right the first time. Suppose he has an extra +Remington? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Well, then you would have lost a Western. If he fires +four times? + +Mr. EISENBERG. Yes? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. And he has the fifth one in. You would still have to +have three Western cartridges loaded in and one Remington cartridge. + +Mr. EISENBERG. But then---- + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Which is four. + +Mr. EISENBERG. But then you only have to lose one cartridge case. You +do not have to lose a bullet and a cartridge case. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is right. You do have to lose one case. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And the case you lose would be a Western case? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. Western. + +Representative FORD. Is it unusual to have a mixture of this kind in a +pistol? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. Usually they are all the same brand. Although +if you have two boxes--.38 Special cartridges come in boxes of 50. And +you will see hand-loaders once in a while. By the way, we found no +indication that they had been hand loaded. + +Representative BOGGS. Is this a police weapon as well? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; and a very good one. Not in that particular +caliber. In other words, the caliber---- + +Representative BOGGS. That is what I meant. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. .38 S&W is not a popular cartridge in this country. The +.38 Special is. + +Representative BOGGS. .38 Special is? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. That cartridge. + +Representative BOGGS. With police forces? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. We use it. Most of your larger police forces use the +.38 Special. It is a better cartridge. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Getting back to the example we were using before as a +second possible theory--the cartridge case that would be lost would be +a Western case, I believe actually? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, it would be a Western case. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, also getting back to a subject we were discussing, +I will quote in part from a letter from Mr. Hoover to Mr. Rankin dated +March 31, 1964. + +"On March 30, 1964, Mr. Eisenberg requested that the Dallas Police +Department be contacted to determine whether any additional cartridge +cases had been recovered." And I say parenthetically I mean in addition +to the four which we have seen here. + +"On March 30, 1964, Lieutenant Carl Day, Dallas Police Department, +advised the Dallas office of this Bureau that all of the cartridge +cases and bullets recovered had been previously submitted to the FBI." + +You mentioned or discussed the question of hand loading. Can you +describe what you mean by hand loading? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Hand loading is nothing more than taking components and +by means of a press you make your own cartridges. You put them together. + +Mr. EISENBERG. In this process, would you be able to take a bullet of +one manufacturer and a cartridge case of another? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. You said that you found no evidence that that had been +done in this case? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. We found no sizing marks on the cartridge cases, which +after the first time it has been fired, you many times have to resize +it, due to the fact that one chamber can be too large. They always +full-length resize, for in a police department many officers will be +using this ammunition. You might not resize if one were only firing +them in one gun. In other words, you are limiting the chambers of your +cylinder that they will fit into. But normally they are full-length +resized, and from this you get these sizing marks. Actually they are +scrape marks from the sizing die. + +Mr. EISENBERG. In a hand-loading operation, is the equipment needed +bulky or small? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It is quite bulky. + +Mr. EISENBERG. If Oswald had hand-loading equipment, would it have been +likely to have been turned up among his personal effects? Could it be +easily missed? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. You could not miss it; no, sir. + +Representative FORD. When you say bulky---- + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. A "C" press or an "O" press will stand anywhere from +10 to 12 inches high with a 2-foot handle. Your turret-type would run +almost a foot and a half high above the table. And they are all made +very heavy because of your full-length resizing--not only on your +small revolver cartridges, but for all your hunting cartridges--that +takes great pressure. They are heavy duty. And you need quite a bit of +equipment. Most of the time there will be a case trimmer, your complete +press--there is a primer press, and then you have to have dies for the +cartridge you are loading--your sizing dies and your bullet dies that +you use to press the bullet into the cartridge case. Then there are all +sorts of sundry equipment that go along with hand loading--your powder +measurer, which is usually quite large if it is one that will do it +volumetrically. True, you can have a balance and weigh out a particular +amount for each one, but it takes an awful lot of time. Normally they +are volumetric powder measures. You tip it and it puts a certain amount +of powder into the cartridge case. + +Representative FORD. Is it expensive equipment to buy? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Originally, yes. Comparatively so. A good press, I +think you can buy one anywhere from $29 to over $100. You will have +to invest, I would say, $150 to have a fairly good outfit. But over +the years it is a cheap investment. Instead of paying $2.80 a box, or +$2.85 a box, you are turning out cartridges, once you have your brass, +for--even rifle, hunting cartridges--for about 7 cents, and lead bullet +cartridges down to around 3 cents apiece. + +Representative FORD. $2.80 a box? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I have the component list here from Western. I do not +have the cost per box of ammunition, but it can run anywhere from +$2.25 all the way up to $6 to $8 for some of your larger hunting rifle +cartridges--boxes of 20 in hunting ammunition, boxes of 50 in your +revolver and pistol ammunition. + +Even buying components, it is comparatively cheap. If you buy them +by the hundred, and they will run, for instance the .38 Special, +158 grain lead bullets per hundred, only $2.80, and that is for +original components. If you have the brass, your powder cost is +negligible--probably a penny a cartridge, half a cent a cartridge for a +.38 Special. So it saves you so much money if you are a target shooter, +for instance, it is advantageous to do it if you like to shoot. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is that a skilled operation, hand loading? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Basically, no. Once you have the basic--if you do any +reading on it, and you take your time, and are very careful, it is not +a difficult operation at all. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, would a---- + +Representative BOGGS. How are these cartridges loaded mechanically--not +like this hand loading. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It is all done on large machines. They buy their lead, +for instance, in rods. They ask for a lead alloy of a certain hardness. +Then these machines--they feed in the rods in the bullet-making +machines, and they cut them off to length. They have different diameter +rods. For a .38 the rod diameter would be approximately .357" or .358". +Then this machine comes down in a swaging operation. + +Another machine puts the knurling around--forming the lubricating +grooves, and another groove. They tumble out as fast as the machine can +run. + +Then you have your case formation. They buy their cases--they look like +little cups of copper. Actually it is a copper alloy. And then you go +through a drawing process, and then an annealing, and a drawing and +annealing, and a drawing and annealing of these brass cases. And then +once you get them to approximate length, you full-size them and form +the cases. The machine keeps tumbling them out. + +And a small lathe--as these cases are going around--turns the case +and puts in the extraction groove--all automatically. Another machine +comes up from the bottom and puts the head stamp in. Another one is a +drilling operation, and it puts in the holes for the primer and also +the flash holes into the case. All done automatically. And they tumble +into a big box. + +Then they take those components and they put them on the line. The +primers are all done by hand, except for shotgun primers at Western. + +There are girls sitting at these presses who do 50 or 100 at a time. +They put guide plates into the machine in which the girls put the +primers. They are automatically loaded. All the primers are put in by +hand, in essence. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, what is the advantage of hand loading in +terms of cost, if you do not have your own shells to start with? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. There again your initial cost is fairly expensive. +For instance, for the .38 Special, unprimed cases, the list price per +hundred last year, was $4.60 a hundred. The primed cost $5. The primers +cost 20 cents---- + +Mr. EISENBERG. So there is a saving even if you do not provide your own +shells? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Oh, yes--and the bullets would cost---- + +Mr. EISENBERG. How many primers? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. One hundred. And 158 grain lead, .38 Special bullets +are $2.80. So $7.80 plus $2.00 worth of powder and you are in business. + +Mr. EISENBERG. For $9.80? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And how much would the bullets cost you if you bought +them commercially already prepared? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I think it is $2.50 per 50. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Well, that is more. $2.25 per 50, did you say? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. $2.85? I never buy any ammunition of that type. I do +not know. + +Mr. EISENBERG. So for a hundred that would be $5.90. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I would say it is closer to $8 per hundred for .38 +Special. + +Mr. EISENBERG. So it is cheaper to buy them that way than to buy the +components? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It is cheaper to buy your components when you do not +have to buy the cartridge cases. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Well, now, is it possible that a gunsmith would buy +the components, including new cases, and reload together a case from +Western-Winchester and a bullet from Remington-Peters? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I don't think that a gunsmith would buy the new cases. +That is what I was saying. For instance, used .30-.06 brass, right here +in town--you can buy it locally. You can buy National Match Cases, +which are excellent brass. I think they are a nickel a piece; $5 a +hundred. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Are they as good as the new cases? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They are once-fired cases. They are excellent. + +Mr. EISENBERG. So in you opinion does the possibility that this +discrepancy in bullets and cartridge cases can be explained in terms of +reloading make much sense? Does it have a high degree of probability or +a low degree of probability, would you think? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am sorry. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Would you think it probable or improbable, in light +of all your testimony, that the discrepancy between the number of +recovered bullets and the number of recovered cartridge cases can be +explained in terms of a reloading operation of some kind, or hand +loading? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; I do not. It is improbable, because we found +no indication of any reloading operation. And in an examination of +all the cartridges that we had examined, there was no indication of +a reloading operation on those. They looked like factory bullets and +factory cases. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And if you were going to reload, you would use used +cartridges rather than new ones? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. You would use used brass, because you usually can pick +it up at ranges and places like that. You would not even have to buy it. + +Representative BOGGS. By that you mean you would use these? (Referring +to Commission Exhibit No. 595.) + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; well--these would be very difficult--in other + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; well--these would be very difficult on +account of the case. They would be hard to resize on account of the +fact the case is pushed out due to the rechambering. But they could be +used; yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. When you say there is no indication, would there be an +indication if they were resized? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; usually--unless the sizing die was extremely +clean--usually you will get your resizing marks from the resizing die. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And in particular you say the cartridge cases from this +particular weapon show a substantial amount of bulge? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They do. As you brought to my attention, there is a +crack in the one case. I would not care to use this type of brass if +I were hand loading. I would find brass that had been fired in a .38 +Special. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, by the way, the various cartridge cases, the four +cartridge cases and four bullets that you have identified, and that you +obtained from your Dallas Office and other sources, that is, Exhibits +594 and 602, 603, 604, and 605, are these now in the same condition as +they were when you originally got them? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Substantially. A small sample was taken off the noise +which was run spectrographically. But the major portions of all these +bullets are the same as when they were received in the laboratory. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you clean them in any way or alter them? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; we had to clean them. They were removed from the +body and were bloody. You could not see the surfaces. We had to put +them in haemo-sol, which is nothing more than a material that will take +out the blood. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is that true of all four bullets? That is true of the +last three bullets as well as the original bullet? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Q-13 was cleaned of blood tissue in haemo-sol. I do not +think I have anything in the notes that the last three were cleaned at +all. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Would that indicate they were not cleaned? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I would say so, because I would have put it down. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Was the substance removed from the first bullet tested +to see whether it was blood, or did you just assume it was blood? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No examination was made of it. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Was there any dirt on the cartridge case? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I don't remember any. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Would your notes show if you had cleaned it up? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And they do not show any cleaning up? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No. + +Mr. EISENBERG. You said these revolver bullets were sold in boxes of +how many? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Fifty. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Will a storekeeper, a gun man who sells bullets, sell +less than 50 usually, in your experience? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Maybe some small outfit would. But I just don't know of +any around here that will. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Oswald was found with two types of ammunition, two +makes of .38 Special cartridges. Would you infer than that---- + +Representative BOGGS. What two types? + +Mr. EISENBERG. R.-P., or Remington-Peters, and Western-Winchester. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They were Westerns. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Would you infer on the basis of your previous statement +that he had probably bought a larger quantity? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The inference would be that he had at least two boxes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. At some point? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; either that or he had obtained them from another +individual. + +Mr. EISENBERG. How about the rifle ammunition, this 6.5 +Mannlicher-Carcano rifle ammunition--how is that commonly sold--the +Western brand? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That would depend on the surplus house, how it is sold. + +Mr. EISENBERG. You think that might be sold in less than fixed minimum +quantities? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Many times that type of ammunition, surplus ammunition, +is sold in any amount. They will give a single price, single cartridge +price--or they will take off some if you buy them by the thousand or +the hundred. That is a lot different than commercially made ammunition +for sale in this country. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like to examine this witness now +on the paraffin test, if there are no further questions on the areas we +have been covering up to now. + +Representative FORD. Any questions, Mr. Boggs? + +Representative BOGGS. I don't think so. + +Representative FORD. Mr. Rhyne? + +Mr. RHYNE. Yes; you said that you were positive that these cartridge +cases that were found near where Officer Tippit was killed, and which +are over in front of Representative Boggs now, were fired in this gun. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. As I stated the first time, in my opinion those +cartridge cases were fired in that particular weapon to the exclusion +of all other weapons. + +Mr. RHYNE. And with respect to the bullets that were found in the body +of Officer Tippit, you testified that you could not be positive that +they were fired by this weapon, Exhibit 143. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I could not identify those bullets as having been fired +from that gun. However, the rifling characteristics on the bullets +are the same as produced by that weapon. Also, I could not identify +consecutive tests obtained from that revolver, using .38 Special +ammunition, and I could not identify, even though there are microscopic +marks on three of these bullets for comparison purposes--I could not +identify them with each other. + +Mr. RHYNE. Now, based on your many, many years of experience, is this +usual or unusual, that you are unable to identify bullets from such a +gun under these circumstances? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It is not unusual in this particular case. I have +had other cases with these rechambered .38 S&W revolvers, that are +rechambered to a .38 Special; it is not unusual to not be able to +identify them. And especially when the barrel has been cut off 2-3/4 +inches, it even cuts down the possibility a little bit more. + +Mr. RHYNE. I was under the impression that you people down at the FBI +could identify almost any bullet as coming from almost any gun. That is +not strictly true, then? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Thank you, but it is not. + +Representative BOGGS. How much has this barrel been cut off? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. About 2-3/4 inches. You measure the length of the +barrel from--you see the cylinder---- + +Representative BOGGS. Yes. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. And the portion coming out from the frame, that is a +portion of the barrel. And the barrel is measured from there to the +muzzle. And the barrel now is 2-1/4 inches long. The original barrel +was 5 inches long--or at least it is similar to the model that would +have a 5-inch barrel. + +Representative BOGGS. What is the advantage of reducing the length of +the barrel? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Two things--sales appeal and concealment. + +Representative BOGGS. Does it affect the firing quality of the weapon? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It affects your accuracy inasmuch as it cuts down on +your sight radius. Your longer barrel will be more accurate than a +shorter barrel, due to the longer sight radius. The reason that rifles +are inherently more accurate than a hand weapon is due, in part, to +the longer sight radius. That is the reason the farther you can get +away from the sight when you are firing a revolver, the more accurate. +Lengthening your sight radius will increase the accuracy. + +Mr. RHYNE. Based on your experience in your study of these bullets, do +you have an opinion as to whether or not they were fired by this gun? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; I cannot determine that. + +Mr. RHYNE. You have no opinion at all? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The only thing I can testify to, is they could have, +on the basis of the rifling characteristics--they could have been. +However, no conclusion could be reached from an actual comparison of +these bullets with test bullets obtained from that gun. + +Mr. RHYNE. Even though there are a lot of similar markings. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. There are not; no, sir. There are not a lot of similar +markings. They are similar. The rifling characteristics, are the same, +or similar. But, in the individual characteristic marks, there are not +a lot of similarities. There are not sufficient similarities to effect +an identification. + +Representative BOGGS. Stating Mr. Rhyne's question negatively, these +bullets could have been fired by another weapon? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. Either this weapon or another weapon +which has the same rifling characteristics. + +Representative FORD. You are limiting that to the bullets now? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The bullets. + +Mr. RHYNE. Yes; my question related just to the bullets. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I identified the cartridge cases. + +Mr. RHYNE. He was positive about the cartridge cases, but not about the +bullets. + +Representative BOGGS. Now, would it be likely to find these cartridge +cases, which you can positively identify as having been fired from this +weapon--would it be likely that these bullets which you cannot identify +as having been fired from this weapon--would it be likely that they +would be fired from another weapon under those circumstances? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Well, that, sir, depends on other extraneous facts +other than my comparisons and examinations. In other words, I can only +testify to what I actually found from an examination and comparison of +those bullets with these test bullets from that gun. And as to anything +else, I cannot testify. I mean--that would be based upon other facts. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Carrying some of these questions a little bit further, +Mr. Cunningham, you say that this bullet could have been fired from +this gun, and was fired from a gun with these rifling characteristics? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Which you said were five lands, five grooves, right +twist? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What about the widths of the lands and grooves? Did you +measure those? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; they were also the same. In other words, when I +say it has similar rifling characteristics--the widths of the lands and +the grooves is taken into account the rifling characteristics. It has +the same width and number of lands and grooves and a right twist. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, how many other--well, before I ask that, you have +also established that the bullets were .38 Specials? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And the manufacturer of each bullet? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Would you say they had been fired therefore from a gun +chambered for a .38 Special? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; there was no indication that they were fired in a +weapon other than .38 caliber. + +Mr. EISENBERG. So that the weapon was a .38 Special weapon with five +lands, five grooves, right twist, and with the same dimensions for each +land and each groove. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, would the entire production run of this model +conform to that description? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. And also there are other models. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Other models also produced by Smith and Wesson? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; in .38 Special. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you estimate the number of those guns? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. May I have the NRA reprint? My estimate comes from the +figures that are set forth in Commission Exhibit 593, which states that +by 1942 there were a million "Military and Police" revolvers, which is +the prior model to the Victory model, which they produced. + +Representative BOGGS. That is this model? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir. But the model has similar rifling +characteristics. You could not distinguish between them. In other +words, one is a commercially made gun--this is strictly a wartime gun. +Also production of the "S" series continued until 1948, when the "C" +series was started, including over one million "M&P" models, including +the Victory model, which was this model, were manufactured between +1942 through March of 1948; and since that date, Smith and Wesson has +produced over 500,000 "M&P" revolvers in the "C" series, which, when +you add them up--there are over two and a half million. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Two and a half million? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Over 2-1/2 million. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, apart from specially handmade or equivalent +weapons, how many other types of weapons have you encountered which +have these rifling characteristics? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Other than possibly a Spanish-made copy of the +Smith--the Smith is the only one in .38 Special now that will have +similar rifling characteristics. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, when you say Spanish-made, you are referring to the +basement type of operation? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, this weapon did not produce, and does not +produce--that is, the weapon 143--does not produce identical +microscopic characteristics from bullet to bullet, you have testified. +And you have told us that the reason might be that the weapon was +rechambered but not rebarrelled, so that the .38 Special is slightly +undersized for the barrel? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It has not been rebarrelled. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That's right. So when you fire a .38 Special, it is +slightly undersized, and this might affect the barrel characteristics? +Wasn't that your testimony? That the .38 Special is slightly undersized? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; approximately four-thousandths of an inch. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, could you therefore limit the number of possible +weapons from which the bullets might have been fired, not only to the +2-1/2 million S&W's which you discussed, plus the possibility of +Spanish homemade weapons, but also to those weapons, that subcategory +of weapons within those 2-1/2 million, which does not produce +microscopic characteristics such that you can identify bullets fired +from them? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; you cannot, due to the fact that there was +also the possibility that the inability to identify consecutive tests +from that weapon could be caused from an accumulation of lead or from +barrel wear--the barrel was actually physically changing. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That is not quite what I meant. Out of every ten S&W .38 +Specials, on the basis of your experience, how many do you think would +produce rifling characteristics such that you could identify bullets +fired from them? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Well, you could tell if the rifling characteristics are +similar. But as far as the individual characteristic marks, that would +be on an individual basis. Much depends on the imperfections in the +barrel. Now, if you have some real deep imperfections in a barrel, it +would be possible to pick them up each time. Even though you would have +a lot of dissimilarities, the similarities would be so distinctive that +there is always a possibility you could identify them. But not this +weapon. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Rhyne asked before whether it was usual or unusual +to get this type of weapon not producing microscopic characteristics +such that you could identify the bullet to the gun. You said it was not +unusual. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It is not unusual. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, I say out of every 10 such weapons, how many would +you expect to be in this condition--that is, in a condition such that +you cannot make an identification? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I would have no way of knowing that. + +Mr. EISENBERG. On the basis of your experience, the experience that led +you to say it is not unusual to have this condition? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I can only say that you find them, that you cannot +identify them, so it is not unusual. But as to numbers, I could not +say. When you go back and you take all the hundreds and hundreds of +examinations I have made, it is not unusual. But I also will not say +that it is usual. I will go to the negative, I will say it is not +unusual. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Would you agree that out of the 2-1/2 million possible +weapons it could only have been fired from a gun which will not produce +microscopic characteristics such that you can identify the bullet to +the weapon? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. There is a good indication of that; yes. However, +there is mutilation on all four of the bullets. But the three we are +talking about, the ones that had marks for comparison purposes, now, +even though the possibility is remote, it is still possible that there +is mutilation in different areas of each bullet, so you would not be +able to identify them. Even if the bullets--even if they had not been +mutilated, you maybe still could not identify them. In other words, +your mutilation on different parts of each bullet would preclude the +possibility of identifying them with each other. So I cannot answer +your question positively. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Well, Mr. Chairman, I have one subject remaining with +this witness. Mr. Cunningham, are you familiar with the paraffin test? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Have you administered this test? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I have. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you give us the approximate number of times you have +administered it? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I don't know the exact number, but I must have +performed this test at least 100 times, and probably more. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, I will state for the record--I know you do not know +of this of your own knowledge, Mr. Cunningham--but a paraffin test was +performed on Lee Harvey Oswald by the Dallas Police. Three paraffin +casts were made, one of the right cheek, one of the right hand, and one +of the left hand. There was no reaction on the paraffin test of the +right cheek. There was a reaction on the paraffin test of each of the +right and left hands. + +I will now hand you a sketch which was made by a participant in those +tests, which shows the distribution of the blue or violet dots which +constitute a positive reaction to this test on the left and right hands +of Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Representative BOGGS. Before you do that, Mr. Cunningham, will you +describe briefly the procedure on a paraffin test? I want to understand +exactly what it is. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The so-called paraffin test is the making of reinforced +paraffin casts, of a person's hands, and then treating either with +either one of two reagents. One is diphenylamine, and the other is +diphenylbenzidine. + +Representative BOGGS. Is that when the cast is on? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is definitely after it is removed. + +Representative FORD. You actually make a cast of the individual's hand? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Oh, yes. + +Representative BOGGS. You make the casts. Then you take the casts off. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. You slit it. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe how the cast is made? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. You first take warm paraffin. Each paraffin melts +at a slightly different temperature. What we were using in our tests +melts at about 130°. And this hot paraffin is placed on the hands. It +is spread on with a brush, or it can be poured over. If you are sure +that your brush is absolutely clean and will not react--and we checked +all of our equipment so that we were not getting a reaction from the +diphenylbenzidine--we let it pour on from the brush. Once you get a +coating, you can just brush it on, because then you won't be disturbing +any materials on the hands. And after you get a coat on, you take +gauze bandages and lay them on top and put more paraffin on them. The +gauze does nothing more than to give it reinforcement so it won't fall +apart or crumble when it gets real cool. Then you cut them off the +hands after they cool. Then they are chemically processed with either +diphenylamine or diphenylbenzidine. + +Representative BOGGS. The cast? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; the portion of the cast next to the hand. + +Representative BOGGS. Right. I understand now. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain why paraffin is used? What is the action +of the paraffin? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Well, the warm paraffin has the effect of opening up +the pores of the skin and many times material that you cannot get +off from washing will be picked up in the sticky paraffin. As it is +cooling, the dirt and the foreign material on the hands will become +embedded in the paraffin. + +Mr. EISENBERG. So the paraffin acts as a base to pick up---- + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It acts as a medium in which the foreign material is +picked up from the hands. + +Mr. EISENBERG. When you add the reagent, what is considered to be a +positive reaction? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It turns a blue color. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That is the cast? When you say "it," it is the cast? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Well, specks on the cast. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Dots? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, or an area of the cast. The theory of the test +is that it is a test for gunpowder residues. Now, that is the theory, +and it is fallacious, inasmuch as the reagents used in these two tests +are not specific for gunpowder residues. Now, it is true that the +nitrates and nitrites in gunpowder residues will react positively with +diphenylamine and diphenylbenzidine, but they are not specific. They +will react--these two reagents will react with most oxidizing agents. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you give us a few examples? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. Urine, tobacco, cosmetics, pharmaceuticals, soil, +fertilizer--I have a list here of the different families or classes of +compounds that will react. + +In addition to nitrates and nitrites, substances such as dichromates, +permanganates, hypochlorites, periodates, some oxides, such as +selenium dioxide and so forth. Also, ferric chloride and chromates +and chlorates. The list of oxidizing agents is so large--that will +react--that you cannot specifically say it was a gunpowder residue. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Supposedly it is to determine whether or not a person +has fired a weapon. In actuality, in chemistry it is a good indication +that an oxidizing agent is present. The reagents have a valid use in a +chemistry laboratory. + +Representative BOGGS. Let me put the question this way. Given a dozen +ordinary people in the ordinary walk of life, what would be the chance +of a positive reaction on any one of these 12 people? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Excellent, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Has the FBI performed an experiment to determine this? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; we have. The early sets of tests we ran with +diphenylamine. And 17 men were involved in this test. Each man fired +five shots from a .38 caliber revolver. Both the firing hand and the +hand that was not involved in the firing were treated with paraffin +casts, and then those casts treated with diphenylamine. A total of +eight men showed negative or essentially negative results on both +hands. A total of three men showed positive results on the idle hand, +but negative on the firing hand. Two men showed positive results on +their firing hand and negative results on their idle hands. And four +men showed positive on both hands, after having fired only with their +right hands. That was the first test we ran. + +The second test--we used people who had not washed their hands in any +way. They were going about their duties during the day. Their hands +were soiled. Nine people fired weapons out of 29--20 people just had +the casts made. + +The first person fired a revolver. Both right hand and left hand were +positive. The second person fired a revolver. Both hands positive. A +person fired an automatic pistol, where you would not expect to find +residue. Both hands positive. Shooting with the right hand only, again +one with a revolver and three people firing automatics, all positive. +Shooting with the left hand only, one person with a revolver, one with +an automatic, both hands positive. + +Now, of the 20 people that had not come in contact with a gun--they +definitely had just gone about their business--every one of them showed +positive tests on either or both hands. A heavy smoker, for instance, +would come up positive in the area of the hand where you expect to find +residues from firing a gun. + +Representative FORD. That is the hand that you use for smoking? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That's correct. And I noticed you with your pipe. You +are also sure to react because you touch the tobacco in your pipe. You +do it unconsciously. During another test we performed recently I did +not know that the diphenylbenzidine was on the corner of the cast I was +trying to pick up to wash off. I just touched it, and both my fingers +which had touched my cigar turned a blue color. That is how sensitive +it is. + +Now, of these 20 people--true there were some that had one hand that +did not get a reaction, but they all got a reaction, one hand or +another, or both. + +Now, recently in connection with the assassination we made casts--the +three of us, Special Agents Frazier, Killion, and myself, for +neutron-activation. However, two of the casts we treated with +diphenylbenzidine. We obtained a cast of the left hand after firing +this particular revolver four times and reloading. We obtained a cast +of the right hand after firing that revolver four times, and reloading. +We treated both casts, fronts and backs with diphenylbenzidine. This +particular one was run on me. I washed my hands thoroughly with green +soap--and the green soap, by the way, did not react because we checked +it--the gauze used and the paraffin were all checked, to see if they +would react, and they did not. We found numerous, numerous reactions +on the casts of both hand. And I did not fire a weapon with my left +hand. However, as I previously showed you, when I demonstrated how you +ejected cartridge cases, all of those residues showed up, as well as, +I am sure, other foreign material that the paraffin removed from my +hands. And there were reactions on both hands, fronts and backs. + +Now, theoretically, you should not find them on the backs over here, +because I had my left hand behind me, and you would find it on the +palm. We found reactions everywhere on the casts. + +Representative FORD. It is 12:30 now. We will recess until 2 o'clock +this afternoon. + +(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +Afternoon Session + +TESTIMONY OF CORTLANDT CUNNINGHAM RESUMED + + +The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m. + +Mr. DULLES. You are still under oath, Mr. Cunningham, so we won't swear +you again. Will you proceed? + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, I would like to take up a few things +relating to this morning's testimony and then we will go back to +paraffin test. + +First, I hand you two bullets and I ask you whether you are familiar +with these bullets? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is your mark on those bullets? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. On the nose; yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you identify them to us? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. These are two of the tests that I fired from Commission +Exhibit 143, Oswald's revolver. + +Mr. EISENBERG. One is a---- + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. One of them is a copper-coated lead bullet. In this +case, I know that it is Western, because that was the cartridge I used, +and the other one is a Winchester .38 Special lead bullet. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have these admitted in evidence as +Commission Exhibit 606? + +Mr. DULLES. They may be admitted as 606. + +(The bullets referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 606, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, using these bullets as demonstrations, could you +tell us how you determined that the bullets that were recovered from +the body of Officer Tippit, which you looked at this morning, and those +were Exhibits 602 through 604, were respectively a Western-Winchester +.38 Special and a Remington-Peters .38 Special? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; however, I couldn't do it with these two +bullets. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Sure, use 602 to---- + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The copper-coated lead bullet. I could use and I did +use it--I made a photograph. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Before we discuss that further, let's see if we can mark +that for identification. Can you describe what is in this photograph? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. It is a photograph of four bullets. The first +bullet starting from the left is Commission Exhibit No. 604. As you +can see right on the label, it is Q-501, which would be Commission +Exhibit 604. The next bullet to it is a test bullet that I fired from +Commission Exhibit 143, which is a known 158-grain lead bullet of +Remington-Peters manufacture. + +The third bullet in the photograph is our number C-253, which is +Commission Exhibit No. 603. And the fourth bullet in the photograph is +this particular bullet which you have given Commission Exhibit 606. It +is a copper-coated lead bullet of Western manufacture. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you take this photograph? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I was present when it was taken. I compared the bullets +with the negative, and I can testify that this photograph is a true +representation--an accurate representation of the four bullets that +were photographed. + +Mr. DULLES. And this photograph is Commission Exhibit No.---- + +Mr. EISENBERG. If you will admit it into evidence, it will be 607. + +Mr. DULLES. It may be admitted. + +(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 607 and +was received in evidence.) + +(At this point Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) + +Mr. DULLES. All right. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, we have introduced a photograph, which +is Commission Exhibit No. 607, which shows four bullets labeled +"C-252," "R-P," "C-253," and "Western." + +Are two of those bullets the bullets which you just identified as +Exhibit 606? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No; Commission Exhibit 606, the copper-coated Western +bullet, is the same bullet that was in this photograph, labeled the +Western bullet. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you hold that up? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; that is the bullet. + +Mr. EISENBERG. The copper-coated or copper-colored bullet in 606 +corresponds with the far right-hand side bullet labeled "Western" in +607? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is right. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What about the lead-colored bullet in 606? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is a Remington-Peters 158-grain lead bullet. I do +not have that one with me. + +Mr. EISENBERG. This would be similar in appearance though to the bullet +which was photographed as the "R-P" bullet? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, it isn't. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Why is that? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Because this is a Winchester. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Why isn't it copper coated? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The Western Cartridge Division of Olin Mathieson Corp. +loads both lead- and copper-coated bullets into their .38 Specials. + +As of today, Winchester is only loading--under that brand--uncoated +bullets. That is what their latest catalog says. + +Only Western is loading copper-coated bullets. They are both made in +the same factory--they are both made by the Western Cartridge Division +of Olin Mathieson Chemical Corp. in East Alton, Ill. + +Mr. EISENBERG. So you didn't give us an R-P test bullet? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I did not. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I see. Did you use an R-P test bullet in attempting to +make your identification? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; you asked for our first two tests. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I see. Okay. Can you show by use of that photograph, +Exhibit 607, how you were able to determine that certain of the bullets +found in Officer Tippit were of R-P manufacture, .38 Special, and +certain were Winchester-Western? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. + +First of all, in the manufacture of these bullets, each manufacturer +has his own specifications for how they are to look. By that I mean +generally that both manufacturers' bullets are similar. They are +similar in weight. They are generally similar in size and diameter +as well as length. However, the number and the spacing between the +grooves--these grooves, the cannelures, are not similar. It is actually +a knurling process, you can see the knurling marks. + +Mr. DULLES. What is the purpose of those? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Lubrication grooves. .38 Specials being lead +bullets--in order to keep down excessive leading they put in a +lubricant--Remington-Peters--they use a very dark heavy lubricant. +Western-Winchester, they use a very light-colored waxy type of +lubricant. + +Mr. DULLES. Thank you. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Up above you will see a small groove. It is nothing +more than just a slight groove. That can be caused when the case is +crimped, the bullet is crimped into the case. + +Representative FORD. That is in the R-P? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. On both of them, sir. + +Representative FORD. That is on both? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; you see one here, that has actually been put in. +They load up to that certain place and they crimp into that groove, +which is known as a crimping groove. + +Mr. EISENBERG. When you say crimping groove, do you mean the cartridge +is tightened around the case? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The neck of the case is tightened around--is crimped +into the bullet. The distance between the base to the first cannelure, +and the width of the cannelure, the portion of the bullet between the +two cannelures, and the width of the next cannelure, is individual with +Remington-Peters bullets. + +In other words, Western-Winchester bullets are not made with the same +width cannelures and the same distances between the two of them. Each +manufacturer prefers to have a certain distance between cannelures and +a certain width of cannelure, and it is strictly individual to each +company. By these specifications--and also another very important thing +is the base shape--you can determine whether or not a bullet is of one +manufacture or another. + +If you will take these two, one of the tests in Commission Exhibit No. +606, you will see that the number, the width and everything about the +copper-coated Western and the uncoated Winchester are the same. In +other words, they put a flash coat of the gilding metal on the bullet +and as I testified previously its chief value is for sales appeal, and, +a secondary value to prevent leading. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. DULLES. Back on the record again. Continue please. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, as of November 22, 1963, how many major +manufacturers were there in the United States who were manufacturing +.38 Special bullets? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Three. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Who were they? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. First, is the Western Cartridge Division of Olin +Mathieson Chemical Corp., East Alton, Ill., which manufactures +ammunition under the trade names "Western" as well as "Winchester." + +The next major manufacturer is Du Pont, and they manufacture in +their Remington Cartridge Division ammunition under the trade names +"Remington" and "Peters," and the third manufacturer is Federal +Cartridge Co. in Minneapolis. + +Mr. EISENBERG. How many manufacturers of .38 Special ammunition are +there outside the United States, approximately? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I would have no way of knowing all of them. I know it +is manufactured in Canada by Dominion, and Norma also manufactures it. + +Mr. DULLES. What was that name? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Norma. + +Mr. DULLES. N-o-r-m-a? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. In Canada too? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; it is in Sweden. + +DWM in Germany must manufacture it, I am just recalling these +larger manufacturers that should manufacture it. Also, some English +manufacturers. + +Mr. EISENBERG. How are you certain that one of the bullets found +in Officer Tippit was not manufactured by one of the foreign +manufacturers, either one you are acquainted with or one you are not? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. We maintain a Test Specimen and a Standard Ammunition +File, and we have foreign ammunition in them, although I don't think we +have all of the foreign. But we have never come across a foreign-made +bullet with the same physical characteristics as the bullets +represented by those removed from the body of Officer Tippit. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Do you attempt to get a complete file of .38 Special +ammunition? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. We definitely maintain an up-to-date file in our +Standard Ammunition File in the laboratory of all domestic manufactured +ammunition as well as some foreign, for instance, Norma and Dominion, +and we have specimens from other foreign manufacturers. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And you say that of the specimens you do have which you +feel are as complete as possible you have never come across two types +which are similar at least to these .38 Specials? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now Mr. Frazier yesterday said that the Walker bullet +seemed to be a 6.5 millimeter bullet or may have been fired from the +6.5 millimeter Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, had the same general rifling +characteristics as was found on that rifle which is in evidence as +Commission Exhibit---- + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. 139. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; 139. + +Now do you have a complete file of 6.5 or a large file of 6.5 +millimeter ammunition? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. We have some. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Do you feel it is as complete as your .38 Special file? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No; I do not. However, we have never found any foreign +manufacturer manufacturing 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano ammunition that was +similar to this. + +From its general appearance, it has all the similarities of a +western-world-manufactured bullet---- + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now this is Commission---- + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. In other words, the knurling is typical--the physical +characteristics were similar to those of the bullets manufactured by +the Western Cartridge Co. + +Mr. EISENBERG. This is Commission Exhibit 573, which is the--as to +which Mr. Frazier has testified, and which is believed to be the bullet +found in the Walker residence. + +Are you familiar with it? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And you have examined it as well as Mr. Frazier? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I have. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Would you say that this bullet was a 6.5-mm. Western +copper-jacketed Mannlicher-Carcano bullet? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I would. + +Mr. EISENBERG. As definitely as you say the bullets which we +have just been looking at are respectively Remington-Peters and +Western-Winchester .38 Special bullets? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Could I see that just a moment? + +What did that hit, the brick wall of the house? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I have no idea, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. You don't know? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I don't know. I have no first-hand knowledge of it. +It is in essentially the same condition as when we received it in the +laboratory, and all I know would be what has already been furnished +your Commission by report. + +Mr. DULLES. Thank you. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now given the fact that that was a 6.5-millimeter +Mannlicher-Carcano cartridge, could that have been fired in any other +6.5-millimeter rifle? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; it has to be a rifle that is chambered +specifically for this particular cartridge. In other words, there are +other 6.5-millimeter cartridges. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, as I understand it, your conclusion and Mr. +Frazier's was only that this cartridge, that this bullet, could have +been fired from Exhibit 139 or a rifle with similar---- + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. On the basis of the rifling characteristics it could +have been fired from 139. However, there are insufficient marks +remaining to determine whether or not it had actually been so fired. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now the testimony yesterday as I recall it was that it +was fired either from Exhibit 139 or from a rifle with similar, or from +a weapon with similar rifling characteristics? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. But according to your testimony it would have to be +similar to a 6.5-millimeter Mannlicher-Carcano rifle? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No; I did not so testify. You asked if you could fire +another 6.5-mm. cartridge other than the cartridge---- + +Mr. EISENBERG. I asked if that cartridge, if a Western manufacture +6.5-mm. Mannlicher-Carcano cartridge could be fired in a gun other than +the 6.5-mm. Mannlicher-Carcano. And you said, as I recall it, "It could +only be fired from a gun chambered for that cartridge." + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. That 6.5-mm. Mannlicher-Carcano +cartridge could only be fired in a weapon that is chambered for that +particular cartridge. Further we have never found another cartridge +that this particular type bullet has been loaded into. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Have you any reason to believe there is another +6.5-millimeter rifle manufactured that is chambered for that cartridge? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. None that I know of. Maybe I misunderstood +you. You mean, if the weapon is chambered for a 6.5-millimeter +Mannlicher-Carcano, then that is commonly known as its caliber? + +Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. But you can rechamber weapons for another cartridge, as +they do all the time with the military surplus Springfield rifles. You +can have them rebarreled and rechambered. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Apart from rechambering, talking just about original +manufacture, do I understand that the only weapon which you have +encountered, the only 6.5 millimeter weapon you have encountered which +would fire the particular type of cartridge which is Exhibit 573 is the +Mannlicher-Carcano rifle? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; the various models of it. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Okay. + +Before the luncheon--are there any further questions along this line? + +Before the luncheon recess we were talking about the paraffin test and +we were discussing the significance of a positive result, and you had +given testimony concerning two experiments which the FBI had run which +indicated that positive results might be obtained even by a person who +had not recently fired a weapon? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. A paraffin test was also run of Oswald's cheek and it +produced a negative result. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Do your tests, or do the tests which you ran, or +your experience with revolvers and rifles, cast any light on the +significance of a negative result being obtained on the right cheek? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; I personally wouldn't expect to find any +residues on a person's right cheek after firing a rifle due to the fact +that by the very principles and the manufacture and the action, the +cartridge itself is sealed into the chamber by the bolt being closed +behind it, and upon firing the case, the cartridge case expands into +the chamber filling it up and sealing it off from the gases, so none +will come back in your face, and so by its very nature, I would not +expect to find residue on the right cheek of a shooter. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Would you expect to find residues on a person who has +fired a revolver such as Commission Exhibit 143? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. There again, by its design, you would expect to find +something, although there are cases where you won't find it. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Why do you expect to find a residue in the case of the +revolver as opposed to the rifle? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. A revolver has a revolving cylinder. There is a space +between the barrel and the front portion of the cylinder. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I wonder whether you could show that by use of Exhibit +143? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. You can see when you close the cylinder, and each +chamber lines up, there is a few thousandths space between. When the +bullet is fired, the bullet jumps across this space and enters the ramp +and then into the rifling. + +The gases always escape through this small space. The loss is +negligible, but the gases are escaping on every shot. After you fire +this revolver, you can see residues, smoke deposits and other residues +around the entrance to the rear portion of the barrel which is next to +the cylinder, as well as on the cylinder itself. + +So you would expect to find gunpowder residues on a person's hands +after he fired a revolver. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Do I understand your testimony to be that there is no +equivalent gap in the manufacture of a rifle? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you run any kind of a test with this revolver which +would indicate whether it did in fact leave residues? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; I did, or we did, three of us, Mr. Frazier, Mr. +Killion, and myself. The tests were run on me. I was the one who washed +my hands thoroughly. I did not use a brush, I just washed them with +green soap and rinsed them in distilled water. + +Mr. EISENBERG. The purpose of this washing was what? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. To remove possible dirt from my hands. I washed my +hands. The gun was then wiped off with dilute HCl to get rid of any +deposits already on the gun, and I fired it in our bullet-recovery +room, four times--and then after firing I opened it up and ejected +the cartridge cases into my hand, as I showed you earlier today. The +amount of residue that you pick up on your hands from ejection of the +cartridge cases was in my hand at the time. + +I then, under ideal conditions naturally, went back and had paraffin +casts made of my hands and these were treated with a solution of +diphenylbenzidine. + +The results of this examination were that we got a positive result on +both casts, front and back. Many reactions in this area where I had +ejected the cartridge cases in my hand were noted. + +Mr. EISENBERG. By the way, you testified this morning that many common +substances will produce a positive reaction to the nitrate test, +so-called paraffin test. + +Will the handling of an unclean weapon also produce a positive reaction? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Just as much as firing it will. That is what makes this +test so unreliable. Handling a recently fired weapon, that is covered +with residues--you would get just as many oxidizing agents in the form +of nitrates and nitrites on your hands as you would from firing it and +in some cases more--especially up here and around here you would. + +Mr. DULLES. Does the time between the tests, between the firing and the +test, make very much difference, within a few hours? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. If the residues are on the skin they will react. In +other words, if the material has been washed off completely, then you +are all through, but if it remains on the skin or is imbedded in the +pores of the skin it would still react, but so will so many other +things. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Just to review for a second your testimony this morning, +in the experiments that the FBI ran, a revolver or automatic pistol +were used as opposed to rifles, as I recall it? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Were there any negative results following the shooting +of the revolver or automatic pistol? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. None of those were negative results, but they were not +run under the same conditions. By the way, with an automatic pistol you +shouldn't expect to find any residues, for the same reason as with a +rifle--the cartridge is chamber, and the boltface comes in right behind. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you look at your notes for your first experiment, +because as I recall there were some negative results on that. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The only negative results were on the 20 people who +were run as a control and who had never fired a gun, and even for those +people they all got positive reactions at least on one hand. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I am talking about the first experiment now, not the +second one. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The first experiment--yes; that was true. This test was +a little bit different. + +In other words, they were not just taking people from their work. These +people had washed their hands. + +Mr. EISENBERG. In other words, their hands were cleaned before they +fired the weapon? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. But then some of them fired a revolver and still didn't +get a residue, as I remember your testimony? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you make a test with the exhibit, with the rifle, +139, to determine whether that left a powder residue on the right cheek? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. We did. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Will you describe that test? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; this time we ran a control. We were interested in +running a control to find out just what the possibility was of getting +a positive reaction after a person has thoroughly washed their hands. +Mr. Killion used green soap and washed his hands, and we ran a control, +both of the right cheek and of both hands. + +We got many reactions on both the right hand and the left hand, and he +had not tired a gun that day. + +Mr. EISENBERG. This was before firing the rifle? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. That was before firing the rifle. We got no +reaction on the cheek. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Also before firing the rifle? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. + +We fired the rifle. Mr. Killion fired it three times rapidly, using +similar ammunition to that used in the assassination. We reran the +tests both on the cheek and both hands. This time we got a negative +reaction on all casts. + +Mr. EISENBERG. So to recapitulate, after firing the rifle rapid-fire no +residues of any nitrate were picked off Mr. Killion's cheek? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct, and there were none on the hands. We +cleaned off the rifle again with dilute HCl. I loaded it for him. He +held it in one of the cleaned areas and I pushed the clip in so he +would not have to get his hands near the chamber--in other words, so +he wouldn't pick up residues, from it, or from the action, or from the +receiver. When we ran the casts, we got no reaction on either hand or +on his cheek. On the controls, when he hadn't fired a gun all day, we +got numerous reactions. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Are there any further questions on the paraffin test? + +Representative FORD. Based on your testimony this morning, and what you +have told us in the last few minutes, why are paraffin tests conducted +and how extensively are they? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Many local law-enforcement agencies do conduct these +tests, and at their request the FBI will process them. They take the +cast and we will process them. + +However, in reporting, we give them qualified results, since we +frequently will get some reaction. Numerous reactions or a few +reactions will be found on the casts. However, in no way does this +indicate that a person has recently fired a weapon. Then we list a few +of the oxidizing agents, the common ones, such as in urine and tobacco +and cosmetics and a few other things that one may come in contact with. +Even Clorox would give you a positive reaction. + +Representative FORD. Is this a test that has been conducted by +law-enforcement agencies for some time. Is it a new test? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; the first test that I reported on here were +conducted in 1935. + +There may be some law-enforcement agencies which use the test for +psychological reasons. + +Mr. DULLES. Explain that. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; what they do is they ask, say, "We are going +to run a paraffin test on you, you might as well confess now," and they +will--it is-- + +Mr. DULLES. I get your point. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Following up Congressman Ford's question, does the +FBI run paraffin tests except on request from other law-enforcement +agencies? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. We don't, no. Basically, the paraffin test is the +preparing of the cast. We don't do that. We will run the chemical +processing of these casts at the request of the local law-enforcement +agency. + +Mr. EISENBERG. To rephrase it, if the FBI is having an investigation by +itself in a matter it has primary jurisdiction over, will it use the +paraffin test? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No; not the paraffin-chemical test. + +Representative FORD. Is that because of the feeling that it is not as +reliable as it should be? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It is the feeling that it is definitely not reliable +as to determining whether or not a person has fired a weapon. It is +positive, and diphenlybenzidine solution is very positive and very +sensitive, as to whether or not an oxidizing agent is present and it is +used in chemistry. + +Mr. DULLES. You and I with our pipes would be in trouble here, wouldn't +we? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; I mentioned that this morning. + +Representative FORD. He brought it out this morning. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I would be willing to state right now if we processed +both of your hands you would come up positive, because invariably pipe +smokers stick their finger in the bowl and you would get a positive +reaction. + +I am a cigar smoker, I also would come up positive. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I don't have any further questions, Mr. Chairman. + +Mr. DULLES. Do you have any further questions? + +Representative FORD. I have no questions. + +Mr. RHYNE. I take it in sum and substance that these paraffin tests are +practically worthless? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. For the determination of whether or not a person has +fired a weapon. + +Mr. RHYNE. A gun? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. + +Now the test is not worthless in chemistry. + +Mr. DULLES. What use are they then except possibly from this +psychological angle that you have mentioned? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. We don't---- + +Mr. DULLES. Are they useful in other ways than but for the +psychological reasons you mentioned? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. As far as whether or not a person has fired a gun? + +Mr. DULLES. Yes. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No. Even with the mere handling of this weapon I could +pick up residues. One could not testify that a person has fired a +weapon because he had residues on his hands, which I showed you this +morning, for example. + +There is a spot right there on my hand, and all I have done is empty +the weapon. + +Representative FORD. Did the FBI conduct a paraffin test on Oswald? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; the Dallas Police Department did. + +Representative FORD. The FBI did not? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. We did not, sir. + +Representative FORD. You didn't analyze it? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. We did not. We obtained the paraffin casts and another +agent in the spectographic unit took them to Oak Ridge and had them +subjected to neutron activation, with which I am not familiar. But we +did not do the original examination and the reporting. I don't know +definitely as to what the Dallas Police Department did. + +Mr. EISENBERG. It was under the supervision of the Dallas Police +Department. I think a doctor performed the test, I am not sure whether +it was a police doctor or not. + +By the way, after the paraffin test is run, does the positive reaction +stay evident on the paraffin cast? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, it does not, due to the fact you have to wash +it off. The solution of diphenylbenzidine is 70 percent sulphuric +acid. The solution we were using in these tests was .25 grams of +diphenylbenzidine to 100 ml. of 70 percent sulphuric acid, and +sulphuric acid is corrosive. In other words, the majority of the +solution is 70 percent sulphuric acid. + +Mr. EISENBERG. So the casts as they are now don't show anything except +white paraffin? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. + +Mr. DULLES. You have no further questions? + +Mr. MURRAY. No, thank you, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much, Mr. Cunningham. Thank you very much, +sir. + + +TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH D. NICOL + +Mr. DULLES. Mr. Nicol, I am presiding at the request of the Chief +Justice. + +Will you kindly raise your right hand. Do you swear the testimony you +will give before this Commission is the truth, the whole truth, and +nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. NICOL. I do. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Nicol, would you state your name and position? + +Mr. NICOL. Joseph D. Nicol, Superintendent of the Bureau of Criminal +Identification and Investigation for the State of Illinois. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you briefly describe your qualifications in the +field of firearms investigation? + +Mr. NICOL. I began studying this field in 1941 in the Chicago Police +Crime Laboratory under Charles Wilson, remained there as a firearms +technician for approximately 9 years, and then moved to Pittsburgh, +where I directed and set up the Pittsburgh and Allegheny County Crime +Laboratory, also working in the field of ballistics. + +Then I went to Miami, Fla., and set up the Dade County Crime Laboratory +and worked there for 5 years. I went to Michigan State and taught for 4 +and now I am back in Illinois, in Springfield, as Superintendent of the +Bureau. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you tell us approximately how many bullets and +cartridge cases you have examined to identify them or attempt to +identify them to suspect weapons? + +Mr. NICOL. This would number in the thousands, I do not have an exact +figure, but our caseload in Chicago is approximately 4,000 guns +annually, of which we would make approximately between 10 and a dozen +comparisons, so the comparisons that would be conducted by myself or +those under my direct supervision would be approximately 50,000 a year. +Now this is just a rough figure. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have any publications or lectures? + +Mr. NICOL. I have one minor publication in the field of firearms. Most +of my publication work has been with the "Journal of Criminology" in +the area, of the technical note and abstract section. + +I do not have any major publications in the firearms field. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What is your association with that Journal? + +Mr. NICOL. I am associate editor of the "Journal of Criminal Law and +Criminology." + +Mr. EISENBERG. Do you lecture on any regular basis? + +Mr. NICOL. At the present time I am lecturing with the University of +Illinois in criminal investigation, at the Chicago campus, and prior +to that I had been on the staff at Michigan State University for +approximately 4 years. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What was your education before you went into this field? + +Mr. NICOL. I have a Bachelor of Science degree in Chemistry from +Northwestern, and during the period that I was with the Chicago Crime +Laboratory I got a Master's in Physics also from Northwestern. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like permission to take Mr. +Nicol's testimony as an expert witness in the field of firearms +identification. + +Mr. DULLES. You may proceed. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Nicol, I will hand you 3 exhibits, 3 items, +Commission Exhibits 399, 567, and 569, which I will describe for the +record as being a bullet and 2 bullet fragments, and I ask you whether +you are familiar with those 3 Commission Exhibits? + +Mr. NICOL. May I examine them? + +Mr. EISENBERG. Yes, you may. + +Mr. NICOL. Yes, this was the exhibit that was given to me as Q-1 in the +original transmission. + +Mr. EISENBERG. This being which Commission exhibit? + +Mr. NICOL. This being 399. + +Exhibit 567, this was referred to as Q-2, and also accompanied the +other exhibit. + +Commission Exhibit 569, this is Q-3. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Are your marks on those exhibits? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes, I have marked my initials on an unrifled portion of +each one of these exhibits. There were also other marks on it at the +time I received the specimens. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I don't know whether you gentlemen have seen these. +These are rifle bullets and bullet fragments. + +Mr. DULLES. Is this the one that was found on the stretcher? + +Mr. EISENBERG. Exhibit 399 is the bullet that was found on the +stretcher. Exhibits 567 and 569 were found in the front portion of the +President's car. + +Mr. DULLES. These are pretty badly mutilated, aren't they? + +Mr. NICOL. Apparently they are separated so that one can't tell whether +they come from a single bullet or from two separate projectiles. One is +a nose portion and the other is a base. + +Mr. DULLES. Is this the one that is the nose portion? + +Mr. EISENBERG. You are handing, Mr. Dulles is handing Mr. Nicol +Commission Exhibit 569. + +Mr. NICOL. No, that would be the base portion. + +Mr. DULLES. That is what I thought. Are those different parts of the +same bullet possibly? + +Mr. NICOL. That is possible, because there appears to be an interval +of approximately an eighth of an inch that is not present, so that the +area where one begins is not even with the other, so it is not possible +to tell, at least I couldn't to express an opinion. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That is, they might be two separate bullets or two parts +of the same bullet? + +Mr. NICOL. Two parts of the same or separate bullets that is right. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I hand you Commission Exhibit 572, which for the record +consists of two bullets, and ask you whether you are familiar with +those bullets? + +Mr. NICOL. These are the two projectiles which were given to me as K-1, +and were used by me as standards or tests. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, when you say "standards or tests," could you +amplify that? + +Mr. NICOL. On the basis of information on the cartridge, or on the +envelope, rather, it was my understanding that these had been fired +from a weapon. I have not any personal knowledge of the weapon from +which they were fired, but they were used as comparison standards to be +compared against rifling impressions on the other three exhibits. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you tell us how you obtained these four exhibits +which you have just looked at? + +Mr. NICOL. All these exhibits were obtained from Mr. Eisenberg on March +24, here in this office. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And for the record, I obtained these items from the +Federal Bureau of Investigation, and transmitted them directly to Mr. +Nicol for his examination. + +Now, Mr. Nicol, you therefore did not fire the two test bullets which +you used in your comparison? + +Mr. NICOL. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And can you go into that at any length as to--do you +have any reason for that? + +Mr. NICOL. Well, probably two very basic reasons. One, the matter of +time, and secondly the fact that I did not have facilities in the +area where I was working for the collection of such tests from a +high-powered weapon. + +There is the other problem, as developed later, it was apparent that +the weapon, even in the firing of this small sequence, was undergoing +some changes, and it was my understanding that several shots had been +fired since these tests were fired and there might be some likelihood +of transitory changes which would make these the best specimens rather +than those I might fire now after this series. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Again for the record, I had been informed by the FBI +that some 50 or more bullets had been fired from the rifle, and that +the firing of this many bullets from a high-velocity weapon would +seriously alter the characteristics of the barrel. + +Representative FORD. Would that be your conclusion, too? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes, it would be. It has been my experience that there is a +rapid erosion with the high pressures and high temperatures that are +involved in a weapon of that velocity. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Nicol, did you examine the three exhibits which +were given to you as Q-1, Q-2, and Q-3, and which are now, I believe +567, 569, and 399---- + +Mr. NICOL. Yes sir; I did. + +Mr. EISENBERG. To determine whether or not they had come from the +identical barrel as that in which the two--the bullets in Exhibit 572 +had sheen fired? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes, I did. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Can you give us your conclusions? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes. It is my opinion that the same weapon that fired +Commission's Exhibit 572 also fired the projectiles in Commission's +Exhibits 569, 567, and 399. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That would be to the exclusion of all other weapons? + +Mr. NICOL. Correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you take photographs of the test and suspect items? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes; I did. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Under the comparison microscope? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And have you brought those photographs with you? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir; I have. + +I might say in passing that this was done in Philadelphia with +equipment that I was not thoroughly conversant with, that is, a type +that I have used, but each piece has some idiosyncrasy, and considering +the time element I do not offer these as the best quality that could be +produced under the circumstances. + +Representative FORD. Does that make any difference in your judgment or +opinion? + +Mr. NICOL. No, sir; it doesn't, because my opinion is based upon a +visual examination. That is, photography is not an integral part of +arriving at the conclusion, except in one facet which I will discuss +later. + +Mr. EISENBERG. On that subject, have you testified in court on firearms +identification? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir; many times. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Do you usually use photographs when you testify? + +Mr. NICOL. No. As a matter of fact, I can't recall an instance in which +I have. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And why were these prepared? + +Mr. NICOL. These were prepared at your request so that there would be +documentary evidence of what I was observing. However--and this one, +for example, will serve to illustrate the type of photography that is +involved. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Excuse me a second. + +You are holding up a photograph labeled Q-1, K-1. Did you take that +photograph, Mr. Nicol? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes, this was taken under a comparison microscope. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And Q-1 is one of the bullets which I have called the +suspect bullets, and K-1 is the test bullet? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes, Q-1 would be 399, and K-1 would be one of the +projectiles in 572. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this photograph admitted as +Commission Exhibit No. 608? + +Mr. DULLES. It may be admitted. + +(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 608 and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Using this photograph, Mr. Nicol, could you explain some +of the markings which led you to the conclusion that Q-1 or Exhibit 399 +had been fired from the same barrel through which K-1 was fired? + +Mr. DULLES. Before you do that, just for an amateur, would you explain +what this is a photograph of, the inside of the barrel? + +Mr. NICOL. No, this is a photograph of two projectiles. + +Mr. DULLES. Projectiles? + +Mr. NICOL. This is the dividing line of the comparison bridge actually. +You see a portion of one, of K-1 on one side and Q-1 on the other. + +Mr. DULLES. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is that groove on the right a cannelure? + +Mr. NICOL. There is a cannelure, that would be the position at which +the projectile is crimped and held in the cartridge case. + +Representative FORD. Why wouldn't that show on Q-1? + +Mr. NICOL. It would be over here on the other side. You see you only +see this much of Q-1, and it may show on Q-1, but it will be over +underneath, and you only see this much of it--in half the field. + +Representative FORD. This is an overlay in effect? + +Mr. NICOL. In a sense, yes, and you are actually masking off half of +each one that is represented over here, and masking off half of the K-1 +over here. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. What is the magnification of these photographs, by the +way? + +Mr. NICOL. These were taken on five by seven, I would estimate about 30 +diameter. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And is the magnification of Q-1 the same as the +magnification of K-1? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir; the optics are carefully matched in order that +they magnify identically. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Will that statement be true of all the comparison +photographs that will be shown? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir. They may not be at the same magnification because +I took some of the subsequent ones on a different unit which had +different optics. + +Mr. EISENBERG. But the left and right side of the pictures would be at +the same magnification as each other? + +Mr. NICOL. They will be at matched magnification, correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Why don't you continue. + +Mr. NICOL. Starting up at the top you will notice a white patch which +represents a land impression on the two projectiles. Immediately below +that a large patch with a similarity of the contours of the edges. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Nicol, do you think you could circle that and mark +it "1" so that people looking at the record in the future will know +what you are referring to? Circle it or make an arrow? + +Mr. NICOL. All right. + +Below that in approximately this position you will see a line on Q-1 +that is found over in the comparable position on K-1. + +Below that at a point representing an imperfection on Q-1, slight +damage to the projectile, you will notice a line which continues across. + +Below that a pair of lines, and then a larger line, below that a pair +of fairly deep impressions, and below that another pair of single +broad grooves, and then another pair, one of the lines is not in the +same size, and then as one gets further down the match is--the bullets +are no longer in a match relationship, simply because Q-1 is somewhat +distorted as a result of having struck some hard object at the base +portion, so that it is oval. + +In the case here we are comparing two surfaces of different radii so +that they do not--looking at them as a projection they do not match up. + +But in this particular region, from approximately this fill-in in the +cannelure, there is a sufficient number of points of identification to +lead me to the conclusion they were both fired in the same weapon. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you mark that, that you mention as "2"? + +Mr. DULLES. This again, at least the "Q" part of this, is the bullet +that was found in the stretcher? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir; this specimen here. + +Mr. DULLES. That is on the left-hand side, is it? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. "Q," as Mr. Cunningham stated, is the FBI mark for +"questioned," whereas "K" is the FBI mark for "known." + +Mr. NICOL. I retained the same nomenclature so I would not add any +unnecessary marks. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now do you have another photograph? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes. I took three different positions of Q-1 and K-1. This +would be now with the same projectiles under the comparison microscope +but rotated to a new position. Each one of these positions shows a +similar rotation. + +Do you want to mark these? + +Mr. EISENBERG. This photograph was also taken by you, Mr. Nicol? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this admitted as 609? + +Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted. + +(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 609, and +was received in evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. This is also marked Q-1 and K-1. + +That will be Commission Exhibit 609. + +Would you discuss that photograph briefly, Mr. Nicol? + +Mr. NICOL. This represents a new position of Q-1 and K-1 in a match +relationship. Both have been rotated simultaneously through the same +angle, and looking at the bottom this time, the large broad area +represents a land impression. + +Then coming up to a point approximately a half inch above the land edge +there is a deep groove paired up with several other deep indentations. +These are worth noting because these represented very prominent index +marks on both Q-1, Q-2, and Q-3. This was used as, you might say, a +point of departure in lining up the projectiles. And again this shows +what I would consider evidence of similarity between the rifling +impressions on both projectiles. + +Mr. DULLES. You wouldn't go further than that--"evidence of similarity"? + +Mr. NICOL. Well, I would go so far as to say that based upon the +individual characteristics that I observed, these, plus those shown on +the other photograph, would lead me to the opinion that they were fired +in the same gun. + +When I refer to similarities, these would be individual characteristics +which would be in the same category as the individual points of +identification on a fingerprint. This would be tantamount to the +fingerprint of that particular weapon. + +Mr. EISENBERG. This is the third photograph? + +Mr. NICOL. This is a third photograph of another very prominent mark on +both projectiles. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Taken by you, Mr. Nicol? + +Mr. NICOL. Right. + +Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this admitted as Commission Exhibit 610? + +Mr. DULLES. It will be admitted. + +(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 610 and +was received in evidence.) + +Representative Ford (addressing Mr. Eisenberg). Now both Q-1 and K-1 +were fired from the Commission Exhibit 139? + +Mr. EISENBERG. 139, yes. The FBI fired K-1 from Exhibit 139. + +Mr. Nicol has now identified Q-1 as having been fired from the same +source as K-1, and, therefore, from Exhibit 139. + +Representative FORD. Yes. + +Mr. NICOL. This represents a third position of Q-1 and K-1, and in this +third position, of course, the first two positions still are in match +relationship, that is to say in a relative sense; because of mutilation +of Q-1 they would not be precise, there would be some mild adjustments. + +What I am illustrating here is a very prominent groove. In this +particular case, Q-1 has displaced slightly in the mechanics of +photography so that the lower broad shoulder that you see here of this +heavy line does not match up. This should come up just slightly above. + +The photographer in printing chose this negative rather than another +one which would have been superior, and I apologize for this particular +photograph. + +But this groove, along with the other pattern shown on 609, also appear +prominently on Q-2 and Q-3 as prominent index marks. + +Mr. DULLES. I don't quite understand 610. This is the last one we have +just admitted. + +Are these ridges the same? This wouldn't be very clear for the +record--this is 609 that I have here. + +Mr. NICOL. No, this is not the same view. + +Mr. DULLES. That is not the same view at all. It is a different part of +the bullet. + +Mr. NICOL. This is rotated, both of them rotated simultaneously the +same amount to bring those into position here. + +Mr. DULLES. Now on 610, I don't see anything comparable on the Q-1 +bullet, a ridge comparable on the Q-1 bullet to the one I find on the +K-1 bullet. + +Mr. NICOL. The dividing line is right through here. + +Mr. DULLES. Yes. + +Mr. NICOL. And it is this big groove gouged through there. + +Mr. DULLES. It stops there at that point? + +Mr. NICOL. It stops right here. This is the base of the bullet. The +lead is protruding, that is what you see down here. + +Mr. DULLES. I see. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Could you circle the mark you are discussing now? + +Mr. NICOL. That comprises the three positions of the comparison of Q-1 +and K-1. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you also take photographs of Q-2, which is our +Commission number 567? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir; this particular position is a comparison of Q-2 +and Q-1. + +Mr. EISENBERG. You took this photograph, Mr. Nicol? + +Mr. NICOL. Right. + +Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this admitted as 611? + +Mr. DULLES. Yes. + +(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 611 for +identification and received in evidence.) + +Mr. NICOL. Due to the extent of mutilation of these two projectiles, I +found it more advantageous to compare Q-1 and Q-2 rather than comparing +Q-2 and K-1. + +Mr. EISENBERG. In other words, you took Q-1, which you had already +identified as having been fired through--from the same rifle as K-1, +and compared it with Q-2 in the photograph? + +Mr. NICOL. Right. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, in determining whether Q-2 had been fired from the +same rifle as K-1, that is, in determining whether the suspect bullet +had been fired from the same rifle as the test bullet, did you match up +Q-2 against the test bullet or against Q-1? + +Mr. NICOL. I did both. But photographically, I could get a better +illustration between Q-1 and Q-2 rather than K-1, because what was +apparent was that the heavy groove here, which would be a projection +in the barrel, and, of course, being outstanding, would be subject +to rapid wear, had changed somewhat between the Q specimens and the +K specimens. And so in order to get closer to the actual time of the +original firing, it was advantageous to make a comparison of Q-1 and +Q-2. + +Mr. EISENBERG. But you arrived at a conclusion independently also on +the basis of K-1? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes, also on the basis of other striations which are not as +easily illustrated photographically, the reason being the mutilation of +the projectile. And here we are comparing a curved surface with a flat +surface, or a curved surface that is flattened out, and the geometry is +no longer the same. + +Mr. EISENBERG. But you did compare Q-2 to K-1 under the microscope? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And did you arrive at a positive conclusion? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes, I did. It is my conclusion that the same weapon that +fired K-1 fired Q-2. + +Mr. EISENBERG. So the photograph that compares Q-1 and Q-2 is only for +illustrative purposes? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. For clarification purposes, am I correct that Q-2 is the +mutilated fractured bullet that was found in the car? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. And was Q-3 in such a situation that it furnished any +useful test or not? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes; I could use it for comparison. + +Mr. DULLES. That was the other part, or separate part found in the +President's car? + +Mr. NICOL. Q-2 is the nose. + +Mr. DULLES. Yes, I remember that. I looked at that. + +Mr. NICOL. You see, what I have to work with is this flat back portion +there, as against the round part, and of course the geometry is just +not the same. + +Mr. EISENBERG. You were pointing just now to---- + +Mr. NICOL. Q-2. + +Mr. DULLES. Q-2 is the nose and Q-3 is the base? + +Mr. NICOL. Base portion, correct. + +Mr. DULLES. Of the fractured bullet. + +Mr. NICOL. Or bullets. + +Mr. DULLES. Or bullets. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you had just begun to show us photograph 611. + +Mr. NICOL. 611 represents, for purposes of illustration--it represents +Q-1 on the right and Q-2 on the left, and the major mark that I +referred to on the comparison of K-1 and Q-1 is represented by this +deep gouge across the field here. There are also other smaller +striations that are in the match, above it. + +Mr. EISENBERG. You now show me a photograph of Q-l and Q-3? + +Mr. NICOL. Right. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you take this photograph? + +Mr. NICOL. I did. + +Mr. DULLES. It will be admitted as Commission Exhibit 612. + +(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 612 and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Again I ask, Mr. Nicol, whether in arriving at your +conclusion you made a comparison of Q-3 directly against K-1? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir; I did. And the purpose here, as expressed before, +is that the illustration seemed to be better between Q-1 and Q-3, as +far as the photographic presentation was concerned. + +We have here Q-1 on the right and Q-3 on the left. Just down at the +base portion of Q-1, just the small portion visible here, there is a +group of very prominent marks that are in a match relationship there. +These are the same group referred to in---- + +Mr. DULLES. That is Q-1 and Q-3 that Mr. Rhyne is looking at? + +Mr. RHYNE. Yes. + +Mr. NICOL. It would be the same area as referred to in 609. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, does that complete your photographs of the three +bullets in Exhibits 399, 567, and 569? + +Mr. NICOL. That's right--against Commission Exhibit 572. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Nicol, I hand you Commission Exhibit 573 and +I ask you whether you are familiar with this item, which I state for +the record is a bullet found inside the Walker residence after the +attempted assassination of General Walker. + +Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir; I have seen this. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is your mark on that? + +Mr. NICOL. Correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Nicol, did you make an examination of Commission +Exhibit 573 to determine whether it was fired from the same rifle as +Commission Exhibit 572, which we have--one of which we have also been +calling K-1? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And what was your conclusion? + +Mr. NICOL. I found that within the limits that Commission Exhibit 573 +is badly mutilated as a result of having struck some hard object on the +side--that the class characteristics generally correspond, that is to +say it would be fired from a weapon of comparable rifling to Commission +Exhibit 572. Then looking at an area which I can best describe on 609 +as being a burr that develops along the edge of the rifling, I found +both on the upper surface, which would be the groove impression, and +along on the shoulder, quite a few points, individual characteristics, +which matched up in each of the positions which were visible. + +Because of the mutilation I was not able to put these in the kind of +a match relationship that would suggest a positive identification. +However, I did not find anything on Commission Exhibit 573 that was +incompatible with Commission Exhibit 572, so without going to the +degree of saying that there is a positive identification, I would +express it this way--that there is a fair probability that Commission +Exhibit 573 was fired from the same weapon that fired 672. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Nicol, we had testimony from a Mr. Frazier +yesterday of the FBI Firearms Section, and he testified that the FBI +does not make probable identifications, but merely positive or negative +identifications. + +Mr. NICOL. I am aware of their position. This is not, I am sure, +arrived at without careful consideration. However, to say that because +one does not find sufficient marks for identification that it is a +negative, I think is going overboard in the other direction. And for +purposes of probative value, for whatever it might be worth, in the +absence of very definite negative evidence, I think it is permissible +to say that in an exhibit such as 573 there is enough on it to say +that it could have come, and even perhaps a little stronger, to say +that it probably came from this, without going so far as to say to the +exclusion of all other guns. This I could not do. + +Mr. DULLES (addressing Mr. Eisenberg). Would you refresh my memory as to +this other exhibit--I don't remember--is 573 the actual bullet that was +fired and mutilated in the Walker attempt? + +Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. And 572 is what? + +Mr. EISENBERG. Those are the test bullets fired by the FBI. + +Mr. DULLES. I was a little puzzled by the order. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. That is just the order in which they were +introduced in evidence. + +Mr. DULLES. And really 573 came before 572 in terms of time. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. That clears it up for me. + +Mr. NICOL. This is the condition of the bullet. + +Mr. DULLES. I have seen the bullet, yes. + +Mr. NICOL. It is in sad shape, to say the least. + +Mr. EISENBERG. As I understand your testimony, therefore, you feel that +there are sufficient identical microscopic characteristics on 572 and +573 to say that they were probably fired from the same weapon, but not +enough to say that they were definitely fired from the same weapon. + +Mr. NICOL. Yes. My opinion would be based upon the finding of families +of lines that would be of the order of two to four fine striations on +the burr that I referred to. For a stronger identification, I would +want a larger group, I would want perhaps five or six in a given area, +all matching in terms of contour as well as position. But this I did +not find. And so for that reason, I would not want to express this as +a positive finding. However, I would not want to be misunderstood or +suggest that this could not have come from that particular gun. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you say burr. This is a burr in the barrel of the +rifle which produced---- + +Mr. NICOL. No, I believe it is the result of a displacement of metal as +the land impresses into the jacket material, and actually machines up a +burr along here on the driving edge. + +Mr. EISENBERG. So is there an extrusion on--on the rifle barrel which +would produce that? + +Mr. NICOL. It may have been true at one time. It appeared at some point +in the passage through the barrel, this portion of the jacket curled up +and subsequently before it left the barrel was touched by the rifling, +so that it is now flat and even. When I refer to it as a burr, it is +not raised up. It is even with the rest of this surface. But you can +see the definite outline of that burr at the land edge. + +(At this point the Chairman entered the hearing room.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, would this be caused by an extrusion in the barrel +or a concavity in the barrel? + +Mr. NICOL. It is probably the result of erosion back at the chamber, +back at the rear of the barrel, along the land edge here, and then +as the bullet gets to the end of the barrel, pressures decrease, so +erosion also decreases, and therefore there is still rifling enough +left to press this down and make some impression on the projectile +itself. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And does this lie within a land impression, or the edge +of a land impression? + +Mr. NICOL. It would be actually in the groove impression. + +Mr. EISENBERG. In the groove impression of the bullet? + +Mr. NICOL. Of the bullet. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you found this same mark on the Walker bullet as +you found on the bullets that were---- + +Mr. NICOL. All the Q specimens and the K specimens had this +characteristic burr. Now, I could not honestly say that this would +not be found, the burr would not be found on other weapons of similar +construction, similar velocity. However, the fine lines that you can +see visible in this photograph, by which an identification could be +made, would be the same individual characteristics as any other fine +lines on the rifling impression. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Nicol, was this burr in the same position in +its relation to the edge of the groove on what we have been calling the +Walker bullet as it was in the other bullets? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir. And, as a matter of fact, repeated in about the +same extent in those land positions and groove positions which are +still visible on that projectile. + +Mr. EISENBERG. So that you not only have the existence of the burr, +but you have it at a characteristic distance from the edge of a groove +impression? + +Mr. NICOL. Correct. And while the contour matched, this is not as +significant, because any two guns manufactured with the same rifling +cutter, as perhaps a production weapon like this would be, would have +the same contour characteristics. So this would not necessarily be +definitive. But the presence of those individual characteristics which +are referred to, although not sufficient for a positive, certainly +would indicate that there is a possibility that this is fired from that +particular gun. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Were you able to secure photographs of this Walker +bullet under the microscope? + +Mr. NICOL. No; I could not, because what I would be comparing would be +a curved surface that is flattened out with the test bullets, which +would be still in curved geometry. So that while I might get one point +in match, the others, you see, would be spread out. So that--actually, +an identification of that kind is made in a dynamic fashion. That is +to say, one bullet is slid and the other bullet is rotated. So that it +is in a sense unfolding the curved bullet so that it resembles in a +progressive way the flattened out projectile. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Nicol, I now hand you Commission Exhibit--well, +before I go into that, is there any further testimony you wish to give +on the subject of the rifle bullets? + +Mr. NICOL. No. The only other work I did on it was with respect to +an examination of the nose of Q-1 to ascertain whether there was any +evidence of ricochet or perhaps contact with fabric and so on. + +However, although there were some fine striations on there, there was +nothing of such a nature that it would suggest a pattern, like a weave +pattern or anything of that nature. So that except for the nick, which +I understand has been explained as a site where spectrographic tests +were conduced, no further tests were run on either of those projectiles. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. + +For the record, the nick which Mr. Nicol refers to was in the nose of +what was given to you as Q-1--and which I have been informed was a bit +of metal that was taken out by the FBI to make a spectrographic test on +the chemical composition of the bullet, and therefore was not produced +in the process of firing the bullet. + +Now, Mr. Nicol, I hand you Commission Exhibits 545, 543, and 544, +which for the record consist of three shells, three rifle cartridge +cases, which were found on the sixth floor of the TSBD building at +the easternmost corner of the south face. I ask you whether you are +familiar with those shells? + +Mr. DULLES. They bear your mark? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir; there is a little JDN inscribed very lightly under +the Q position. + +Mr. EISENBERG. You are familiar with these shells? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir. And these were given to me by you on the same day +I received the projectiles. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I hand you Commission Exhibit 557, which also consists +of--which consists of two expended shells, and I ask you whether you +are familiar with them. + +Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir. These are the specimens, the two shells which I +used as standards or tests to compare against the other three fired +cartridge cases. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And you obtained those from what source? + +Mr. NICOL. I obtained these from Mr. Eisenberg on the 24th of March +here in this office. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Again for the record, I obtained these shells from the +FBI and turned them over directly to Mr. Nicol, and they have been +identified earlier as having been fired by the FBI from Exhibit 139, +the rifle found on the sixth floor of the TSBD building. + +Now, Mr. Nicol, did you examine the shells in Exhibits 543, 544, and +545 to determine whether they had been fired from the same rifle as +fired the shells in Exhibit 557? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes; I did. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And what was your conclusion? + +Mr. NICOL. Based upon the similarity of the firing-pin impressions and +the breech-block markings, as well as ejector and extractor marks, it +is my opinion that all three of the exhibits, 545, 543, and 544, were +fired in the same weapon as fired Exhibit 557. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Nicol, did you take photographs of the various +shells under the microscope? + +Mr. NICOL. I took photographs of the specimen which I referred to, or +was referred to, as Q-48, which would be this. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. That is Commission Exhibit 545. + +Mr. NICOL. These were also taken under the comparison microscope in the +same fashion as the other specimens. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And these were taken by you? + +Mr. NICOL. These were taken by me. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I ask permission to introduce this as +Exhibit 613. + +Mr. DULLES. It may be received. + +(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 613 and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you have extra copies of this photograph? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes; I do. + +Mr. EISENBERG. By use of this photograph, could you explain some of the +markings on Q-48, which is illustrated on the left-hand side and which +is Commission Exhibit 545, and K-1, which is on the right-hand side, +which is the test cartridge, which led you to the conclusion that both +shells were fired from the same rifle? + +Mr. DULLES. 545 is one of the shells found on the sixth floor? + +Mr. EISENBERG. That's correct. + +Mr. NICOL. This was the lone one that was found, I understand. + +Mr. EISENBERG. L-o-n-e? + +Mr. NICOL. Right. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Again, for the record, what Mr. Nicol is referring to is +that for some reason the shells were grouped into a group of two and a +group of one shells by the Dallas police, apparently on the basis that +two shells were very close together, and the third shell was a little +further away. But they were actually all within a quite small area. And +this is just an arbitrary grouping. + +Mr. NICOL. Now, although this compares--is a comparison of Q-48 and +K-1, Commission Exhibits 545 and 572--I'm sorry, 557--the same would +apply to comparable regions on Exhibits 543 and 544. + +I have placed arrows just for fiduciary marks so we can be looking at +the same area. + +Taking the top arrow, the area running across there is rather broad, an +eroded or corroded band, a valley. Below it is a fairly distinct mark. +The two small marks appear below it. And then on the projectile, at the +middle arrow, there is a broad flat plane. This plane has an irregular +contour, and what I have attempted to do is match a projection at the +lower portion of this--you also see that the contour at the top is +equivalent, insofar as the spatial area. + +Below, there are at the lower arrow some additional marks. These +begin to come to the edge of the primer. What we are looking at here +is actually the primer of the cartridge case, and the marks are the +breech-block markings as the result of the pressure of the set-back of +the shell. + +I have a sequence of these where the division moves across. Do you want +to introduce all of them? + +Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; I think we should mark them in evidence. + +Mr. NICOL. All right. + +This would be the dividing line of the comparison bridge moved over a +small portion. You see the entire flat area here, but the match has now +shifted over slightly. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I am holding two photographs, both marked Q-48 and K-1. +You took both photographs? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. I wonder if, for clarification, we could take one of those +shells and see from what angle the photograph is taken and what is +covered in the photograph. I am a little confused. It doesn't make any +difference which one. + +Mr. NICOL. All right, sir. + +The area shown between this dark ring would represent the area between +these two grooves right here. Actually, it is the entire primer. This +is the firing-pin impression you are looking at right here. + +Mr. DULLES. Thank you. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have these admitted, these last +photographs, as 614 and 615? + +Mr. DULLES. 614 and 615, exhibits as described, will be admitted. + +(The photographs referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 614 +and 615 and received in evidence.) + +Mr. NICOL. Now, this again illustrates Q-48 and K-1 with the position +now such that the division of the field is moved over approximately +a sixteenth of an inch from the position we looked at previously. +And again at the points indicated by the arrow, there are individual +characteristics running across the dividing line of the comparison in +both the top and bottom region. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, from the position of the firing-pin hole on Q-48, +on this last exhibit, it appears that it is not perfectly aligned with +the position of the firing-pin hole on K-1, Mr. Nicol. I am looking at +the mark on the right-hand side of Q-48. + +Mr. NICOL. Yes. And the purpose for the mis-alignment was in order +to show these smaller marks that appear right at the edge of the +firing-pin impression. + +Mr. EISENBERG. So that at the top the markings on Q48 and K-1 will not +run into each other, as well as on the bottom? + +Mr. NICOL. If they are divergent, of course, they will not. If they are +parallel, it makes no difference where the position is. + +Now, this is another setting, going to the opposite side of the +firing-pin impression, just translating the two cartridge cases the +same distance, so that we are now looking at a division at the other +side, and a comparison of the breech-block markings on the other side +of the two shells. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Again marked Q-48 and K-1. You took this photograph? + +Mr. NICOL. I did. + +Mr. EISENBERG. May I have permission to mark this 615? + +Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted. + +(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 615 and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. NICOL. Looking at the position of the upper arrow, there is a pair +of diagonal marks, a small mark immediately below it going down to the +lower part of the breech-block markings. There are a series of parallel +lines at approximately a 45-degree angle to the division of the bridge. +These were duplicated on both--all of the cartridge cases submitted. + +Mr. DULLES. I am not entirely clear in my mind what this demonstrates. + +Mr. NICOL. This is the basis upon which I arrived at the conclusion +that the two cartridge cases, K-1 and Q-48, were fired in the same +weapon. Actually, we could take a good match, such as shown here, or +even this one, and this would be sufficient. All I have done here is +repeat this by moving the two bullets, or the two cartridge cases +together the same translated distance, and then taking a series of +photographs at each particular position. So they represent actually the +same thing in each one. + +Mr. DULLES. As the hammer comes down on the cartridge, it makes a +distinctive mark, is that the idea? + +Mr. NICOL. No. I have not compared the firing-pin impression. What this +is is the setback of the shell against the breech face, against the +rear of the chamber. + +Mr. DULLES. The breech face makes an impression on the shell, and that +is a distinctive impression? + +Mr. NICOL. Very definitely, just as individual as a fingerprint. + +Mr. EISENBERG. These are two further photographs that you took, Mr. +Nicol? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And they both illustrate the same cartridge case, the +same two cartridge cases, the one questioned and the one known? + +Mr. NICOL. Right. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And you have moved the hairline somewhat over to the +right? + +Mr. NICOL. Right. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I introduce these as 616 and 617? + +Mr. DULLES. They shall be admitted. + +(The photographs described were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 616 and +617 and were received in evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I suggest that in the interest of time, +since these two photographs are merely continuations of the first +series, we go on to the next. + +Mr. Nicol, you have further photographs now. These are marked Q-48 and +K-1, and these are separate photographs? + +Mr. NICOL. Same photographs. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That is submitted as 618, Mr. Chairman. + +Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted. + +(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 618 and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, was this photograph taken to show the same point as +the previous photographs? + +Mr. NICOL. Not exactly. This shows the rim of the two cartridge cases. +K-1 is just barely visible. Q-48 represents the other half of the +picture. And what we are looking at here in the match relationship, +at the point of the arrow, is a patch which represents the extractor +riding around the rim of the shell at the time that the cartridge was +introduced into the chamber. I might qualify that by saying this: in +order to be certain of the exact factor which produced this, I would +have had to examine the weapon and conducted some tests to ascertain +whether this was the extractor or the bolt pushing the cartridge into +the chamber when the mechanism was operated. + +In any case, the same tool, whether it be the extractor or the bolt, +produced this pattern of lines on both the known and the unknown +cartridge cases. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, did you find that mark repeated on the cartridge +case in other places? + +Mr. NICOL. This was repeated on Q-6 and 7. However, what you may be +referring to is another series which was only found on Q-6. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, could you get to that photograph you just +mentioned, Q-6? + +Mr. NICOL. I photographed the Q-6 in three different positions, which I +designated as 1, 2, and 3. + +Mr. DULLES. Have we identified Q-6 before on the record? + +Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. Q-6, I think it is stated on the record, is the +equivalent of our Commission Exhibit 543. + +Mr. DULLES. What is 543? + +Mr. EISENBERG. 543 is a shell found in the TSBD building. + +Mr. NICOL. This is a photograph I took of the head--a portion of the +head of Q-6, or Commission Exhibit 543. + +Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this admitted as 619, Mr. Chairman? + +Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted as 619. + +(The photograph described was marked Commission Exhibit No. 619 and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. NICOL. It might be well to introduce these, too. These are the same +as the ones which are mounted, except that I have cut them for the +purpose of matching them. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I would like to introduce these two photographs--also +taken by you, Mr. Nicol? + +Mr. NICOL. Right. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Which are similar, or taken from this photograph. That +will be 620 and 621, Mr. Reporter. + +Mr. DULLES. Exhibits 620 and 621 as described will be admitted. + +(The photographs described were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 620 and +621 and were received in evidence.) + +Mr. NICOL. Perhaps in order to illustrate this we ought to get all the +three in, or at least another set, so I can show the match relationship +photographically--so that this represents another position of Q-6, or +543. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And this is a photograph which has not been admitted yet? + +Mr. NICOL. No. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this admitted as 622, please? + +Mr. DULLES. 622 and 623. + +(The items referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 622 and +623, and received in evidence.) + +Mr. DULLES. Would you just briefly describe these? + +Mr. NICOL. This represents another position of the cartridge case, the +head of the case--you are looking at the rim, and this is the portion +of the head stamp representing millimeter. This was a 6.5 millimeter. +You see just a portion of the "5." And what I will be talking about is +the marks down against the rim in all of these exhibits. + +Now, this is the same cartridge as represented by these other two +photographs, with a slight rotation. + +Now, we have only one which we might have to pass around. But if the +photograph 621 is placed in a position corresponding to the arrows, a +match of the fine striations, the pairs of broad lines as well as the +fine lines, can be seen. + +The reason that this could not be taken under the comparison microscope +is that because of course we cannot divide the cartridge case, so +that this had to be done photographically rather than being done on a +comparison basis. + +Now, this illustrates the fact that the same operation occurred twice +on this particular cartridge case. + +Do you want to introduce the third at this time? + +Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. + +This is a photograph taken by you? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Of the same cartridge case? + +Mr. NICOL. Same cartridge case in a different position, rotated in a +different position. + +Mr. EISENBERG. May I have permission to introduce this as 624, Mr. +Chairman? + +Mr. DULLES. It may be admitted. + +(The photograph described was marked Commission Exhibit No. 624 and was +received in evidence.) + +Mr. NICOL. If we compare 624 and 621 in the same general fashion, again +we we have a match of the individual characteristics. So that again +the same mechanical operation occurred on this cartridge case, 543, +three different times, and in a rather random fashion. They are not the +angular relationship between each of these sets of patterns--it is not +divisible by any particular number. It is just a random occurrence. + +Associated with this is another mark that occurs on all three of the +positions, however not in any particular relationship to the group +of lines, and perhaps not as definitive. And it was on the basis of +the match of these patterns that I would conclude that this cartridge +had been introduced into a chamber at least three times prior to +its final firing. So that this would represent, you might say, a +practice or dry-run loading the gun and unloading it for purpose of +either determining its--how it functions, or whether it was in proper +function, or just for practice. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Just to review this testimony, Mr. Nicol, this is a mark +which occurs on the base of the cartridge case, is that correct? + +Mr. NICOL. That is correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And are you able to say definitely whether it is an +extractor or an ejection mark or a chambering mark? + +Mr. NICOL. It appears to me to be an extractor mark, although I was not +able to identify this as similar to any extractor mark or any other +marks on either Q-7 or 544 or any of the tests, 557. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did extractor marks appear on those other cartridge +cases? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And when you say you were not able to identify them, do +you mean that they were not identical to or---- + +Mr. NICOL. They were absent. + +Mr. EISENBERG. They were absent? + +Mr. NICOL. Absent in all the other cases. + +Mr. EISENBERG. So that extractor marks did not appear in the other +cases? + +Mr. NICOL. Extractor marks appeared, but these marks did not appear. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Well, two sets of extractor marks have been put on---- + +Mr. NICOL. This would be possible--perhaps the violence with which the +weapon was activated in this particular incident--or it might be the +result of something not associated with the internal mechanism of the +weapon, but might be the result of the charger or the cartridge carrier +that is introduced into--the way the cartridges are introduced into the +magazine. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, what led you to the conclusion that this was an +extractor mark? + +Mr. NICOL. Only that it appears at the location of the cartridge case +where an extractor mark would normally be found. That is to say, this +would be the mark where the extractor strikes the edge of the case, and +then springs around as the cartridge is driven into the chamber. + +Mr. EISENBERG. But you could not definitely say whether it is an +extractor mark produced by the rifle through which the test bullets +you were given were fired? + +Mr. NICOL. No, sir; I could not. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, I am not quite clear as to why another set of marks +should have appeared on the other cases, which you also think are +extractor marks. + +Mr. NICOL. I cannot say that this could not have been produced by +another gun. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That might have been produced by another gun? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes. + +Mr. EISENBERG. But it was produced by the same source, whether it was +this gun or another gun, three different times? + +Mr. NICOL. Correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Somebody had done one operation, in your opinion, with +this cartridge at three different times? + +Mr. NICOL. Right. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, just to set this in context, I have taken the bolt +from Commission Exhibit 139, the rifle found on the sixth floor, and +could you show the Commission what the extractor is on this bolt? + +Mr. NICOL. The extractor is this semicircular piece extending back in +the bolt, and its purpose is to withdraw the cartridge from the chamber +at the time that the bolt is drawn back. It rides in the extractor +groove, which is machined in the head of the cartridge case. At the +time that the weapon is loaded, oftentimes this springs around, it +first contacts the rim of the cartridge case, and then springs around +the rim of the cartridge and produces marks such as these, or marks +such as I have illustrated on the three sets. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, is it possible that the reason the marks were +present on this cartridge but not on the other cartridge case--on this +cartridge case but not on the other cartridge cases you examined--is +because these marks were produced by dry firing as opposed to actual +firing? + +Mr. NICOL. This is possible. The weight of the empty shell would be +different of course from one which had a projectile in it, so that +its dynamics might be different, and it might produce a different +mark--although in the absence of accessibility of the weapon, or the +absence of these marks on the tests, I really am unable to say what +is the precise origin of those marks, except to speculate that they +are probably from the extractor, and that the second mark that appears +here, which I have indicated with a similar number, is probably an +ejector mark. + +Now, this, I might add, is a different type of ejector mark than the +mark found on the rim from the normal firing of these tests and the +evidence cartridges. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you stated that another mark appeared in all +three--associated in juxtaposition with the three marks you have been +describing? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes; and in the same angular relationship to a radii through +the center of the head. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, again, if it is an ejector mark, might the +difference have been caused by the fact that it may have been +associated with a dry firing rather than an actual firing? + +Mr. NICOL. That might be possible. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Do you think a person would apply a different bolt +pressure in a dry firing as opposed to an actual firing? + +Mr. NICOL. Well, since this is a manually operated weapon, it is quite +possible that no two operations are done with exactly the same force. +However, with reasonable reproduceability, all these marks appear to +the same depth and to the same extent, so that it would appear that +whatever produced them operated in identically the same fashion. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have anything you would like to add to your +testimony on the rifle bullets or the rifle cartridge cases, Mr. Nicol? + +Mr. NICOL. No, sir; I don't think so. + +Mr. EISENBERG. If there are no further questions on that particular +subject, I will proceed to the Tippit bullets and cartridge cases. + +Mr. DULLES. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. DULLES. Back on the record. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I hand you, Mr. Nicol, a group of four cartridge cases +marked Commission Exhibit 594, which, for the record, are cartridge +cases found in the area of the Tippit crime scene, and ask you whether +you are familiar with those cartridge cases? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir; these are cartridge cases which were given to me +on March 26th by Mr. Eisenberg. + +Mr. EISENBERG. They have your mark on them? + +Mr. NICOL. No; I made notes of the FBI designations, and these are the +same--they have the JH and the CK and RF and the Q designations that +were placed on there by the FBI. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Those initials are initials apparently of examining +agents? + +Mr. NICOL. I presume so. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I hand you Commission Exhibit 595 and ask you whether +you are familiar with the cartridge cases contained in that exhibit? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes; these are two fired cartridge cases designated K-3 by +the FBI and marked with their identification marks--CK, JH, and RF. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, for the record, these cartridge cases were earlier +identified as having been fired by the FBI in Commission Exhibit No. +143, the revolver believed to have been used to kill Officer Tippit. + +Also for the record, I obtained these cartridge cases, both Exhibit +595, which are test cases, and Exhibit 594, which are cases from the +murder scene, from the FBI, and transmitted them directly to Mr. Nicol +for his examination. + +Mr. Nicol, did you examine the cartridge cases in Exhibit 594 to +determine whether they had been fired from the weapon in which the +cartridge cases in Exhibit 595 had been fired? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And can you give us your conclusions? + +Mr. NICOL. It is my opinion, based upon the similarity of class and +individual characteristics, that the four cartridge cases in 594 were +fired in the same weapon as produced the cartridge cases in 595. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Nicol, did you take photographs of the comparisons? + +Mr. NICOL. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. EISENBERG. However, you are certain in your own mind of the +identification? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes; the marks on the firing pin particularly were very +definitive. Apparently this firing pin had been subjected to some +rather severe abuse, and there were numerous small and large striations +which could be matched up very easily. + +Mr. DULLES. What do you mean by severe abuse? + +Mr. NICOL. It appeared as though it had either been touched up with a +file, or in the initial manufacture the finishing operation was rather +crude. It was not what I would consider a well-finished firing pin. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Nicol, just to review your earlier testimony, as +I recall you stated that you do not use photographs to make your +identification, and usually do not testify with photographs? + +Mr. NICOL. That's correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. But that the other photographs were made as an +accommodation to us, at my request, so that the Commission could see +them? + +Mr. NICOL. The material I am just talking about could well have been +illustrated. However, I ran out of time. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Nicol, finally I hand you a group of four bullets +marked Commission Exhibits 602, 603, 604, and 605, which I state for +the record were recovered from the body of Officer Tippit, and a group +of two bullets marked Commission Exhibit 606, which I state for the +record were fired by the FBI through the revolver, Commission Exhibit +143. + +I ask you whether you are familiar with this group of exhibits. + +Mr. NICOL. These two are fired lead projectiles that were designated by +the FBI as K-3, companions to the tests in 595. + +Mr. EISENBERG. When you say companions, you mean they were given to +you---- + +Mr. NICOL. They were given to me simultaneously in an envelope, at that +time wrapped in cotton. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And the other Exhibits? + +Mr. NICOL. This was the projectile designated by the FBI, I believe, as +Q-13. + +This is a .38 Special projectile designated Q-502. That would +correspond to Commission Exhibit 603. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And the item you just identified? + +Mr. NICOL. Q-13 would correspond with 602. + +This is Q-501, corresponding to Exhibit 604. + +This is Q-500, corresponding to Exhibit 605. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Are you familiar with all of those? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes; I have seen and examined all of these. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you examine Exhibits 602 through 605 to determine +whether they have been fired from the same weapon as fired 606? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes; I did. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What was your conclusion? + +Mr. NICOL. Due to mutilation, I was not able to determine whether 605, +604, and 602 were fired in the same weapon. There were similarity of +class characteristics--that is to say, there is nothing evident that +would exclude the weapon. However, due to mutilation and apparent +variance between the size of the barrel and the size of the projectile, +the reproduction of individual characteristics was not good, and +therefore I was unable to arrive at a conclusion beyond that of saying +that the few lines that were found would indicate a modest possibility. +But I would not by any means say that I could be positive. + +However, on specimen 602--I'm sorry--603, which I have designated as +Q-502, I found sufficient individual characteristics to lead me to the +conclusion that that projectile was fired in the same weapon that fired +the projectiles in 606. + +Mr. EISENBERG. That is to the exclusion of all other weapons? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. EISENBERG. By the way, on the cartridge cases, that was also to the +exclusion of all other weapons? + +Mr. NICOL. Correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Did you take a photograph of this identified missile? + +Mr. NICOL. I took a photograph of one position, and that is shown here +as a comparison of K-3 and what I designated as Q-502. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this admitted? That would be +625. + +(The item described was marked Commission Exhibit No. 625 and received +in evidence.) + +Mr. EISENBERG. These arrows, Mr. Nicol, can you explain why they are +different? + +Mr. NICOL. This was one I made up originally and then decided that the +illustration would be ample with one arrow in that one position. + +Mr. DULLES. The one that is being admitted is the one-arrow photograph. + +Mr. EISENBERG. The arrows are placed on mechanically after the +photograph is developed? + +Mr. NICOL. That is correct. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And therefore it can vary? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes. This is not a part of the photographic process. + +Mr. EISENBERG. What is the magnification here, Mr. Nicol? + +Mr. NICOL. It would be pretty close to 25 to 30 diameters. I cannot +measure exactly the magnification. + +Mr. NICOL. This illustrates some of the lines, not all of them, +that I saw on a comparison of 502 and K-3. At the position of the +arrow, you are looking at the top of the groove; adjacent to it in +the lower portion is a land impression. And on that shoulder there +are approximately five or six matching lines. They are very fine +striations. These would be indicative of the fact that the same portion +of the barrel had ridden on both projectiles. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Well, now, there seems to be significantly less markings +here than on the bullets which were seen earlier, which had come from +the rifle. Does that same condition pertain when the bullet is viewed +under the microscope? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes. Of course, we are dealing with two different types of +ammunition. One is a lead projectile, and the other is a metal-case +projectile. And the ability of the metal-case projectile to pick up and +retain fine striations, even in spite of distortion and mutilation, far +exceeds what the lead projectile will do. + +Furthermore, the lead being a soft and low-melting-point material is +more subject to erosion of hot gases. So that there are many more +variables in the reproduction in terms of a lead projectile as over +against a metal-case projectile. + +Mr. EISENBERG. You found enough similarities to satisfy yourself that +there is an identification here? + +Mr. NICOL. I am satisfied that the two projectiles came from the same +weapon. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, we have received testimony that the weapon which is +marked Commission Exhibit 143 was rechambered but not rebarreled, so +that a .38 Special bullet fired through the barrel would be slightly +undersized. + +Mr. NICOL. Of course I have not had a chance to examine the weapon. But +on the information that you gave me, this was originally manufactured +for English ammunition, and has been rechambered for American domestic +ammunition, is that correct? + +Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. + +Mr. NICOL. The undersized bullet going through an oversized barrel of +course presents some serious identification problems, because it does +not go through with the same conformity as a projectile going through +the proper-sized barrel, so that it is apt to, you might say, skip and +bear more on one surface than on another in subsequent firings, so that +the identification is made more complex and it is expected that more +dissimilarities occur under those circumstances. + +However, at the points where it did reproduce at the land edges, as +shown in this photograph, I found sufficient lines of identification +to lead me to the conclusion that they had both been fired in the same +weapon. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is it consistent with the markings you found on this +bullet that it had been fired in a slightly oversized barrel? + +Mr. NICOL. Slight. However, due to the malleability of lead, it does +accommodate itself more than a metal-case projectile, and therefore the +evidence of being fired in an oversized barrel is not as pronounced +as it would be if it were fired, let's say, a .32-20 fired in a .38 +Special, which would be possible, and would give very distinct evidence +of the difference in the size of the bullet and the barrel. However, +in neither case is an identification completely precluded. What is +necessary is that tests are available which have borne on the same +surface. If this is true, and if the marks have not been mutilated, +then an identification is still possible. + +Mr. EISENBERG. When you say the bullet will accommodate itself, you +mean it will expand to fill out all or part of the lands and grooves? + +Mr. NICOL. Yes. Actually, with the pressure on the base and the inertia +of the bullet, it is in a sense shorter and expanded in diameter to +accommodate for the larger-sized barrel. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Now, I was not clear whether you drew any conclusion on +the other three bullets--that is, did you definitely--find yourself +definitely unable to identify those bullets, or did you reach a +"probable" conclusion? + +Mr. NICOL. I would say there was nothing, no major marks to preclude +it. However, I was unable to find what would satisfy me to say that it +positively came from that particular weapon. So that I would place it +in the category of bullets which could have come from this particular +weapon, but not to the exclusion of all others. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Is this short of the "probable" category in which you +placed the Walker bullets, or is it in the same category? + +Mr. NICOL. This is in a gray area between black and white, and it is +somewhat nebulous to pin it down to a precise percentage dimension. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Nicol, were you able to identify the type of +bullet which is involved in each of these four exhibits--that is, the +manufacturer of 603, 602, 604, and 605? + +Mr. NICOL. No; I did not attempt this, because I did not have an +adequate reference collection against which to make the comparison. + +Mr. EISENBERG. I do not have any further questions, Mr. Chairman. + +The CHAIRMAN. I have no questions. + +Mr. RHYNE. No questions. + +Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Nicol, do you have anything you would like to add +before we conclude? + +Mr. NICOL. No; I think I have covered everything. + +Mr. DULLES. We want to thank you very much. + +Mr. EISENBERG. There is one further question I have. + +When you made your examination, were you aware of the conclusions which +any other examining agent or body had come to? + +Mr. NICOL. No. I of course was aware of the fact that tests were +conducted. However, I was not aware either through the press or any +other media as to the conclusions. This represents my own personal +conclusions without benefit of any other knowledge. + +Mr. EISENBERG. And do you know at this point what any other body has +come to in the way of conclusions? + +Mr. NICOL. No, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. I wonder if you would be willing to give us your views as +to the effectiveness of paraffin tests? + +Mr. NICOL. I have used the paraffin test both in case work and in +experiments, as an investigative aid. However, I have a very low level +of confidence in it--either as a positive or negative, as far as that's +concerned. + +Experimentally, as the literature well demonstrates, it is possible to +fire a gun and get nothing on the hands. It is also possible to take +people at random off the street and test them with the reagent which +is not specific for powder and find all kinds of reactions. And while +there are some "experts" who--and I say that with quotes--who allege +that they can differentiate one product from another, actually the +end product of the oxidation of diphenylamine is a definite quinoid +structure, which has only one blue color, and I am not sure how they +make this differentiation. I cannot do it. + +I have used it as an investigative aid with positive results if and +when I find in the cast a particle of powder that I can definitely +identify as powder--not just simply the reaction, but something I can +take out, put it under the microscope and I can say this is a particle +of powder. Then I will say that this hand has been in the presence of +the discharge of a weapon. + +Mr. DULLES. You do not need a paraffin test for that, do you? + +Mr. NICOL. I don't think so. I think if you actually examine the +subject's hands, you probably can find that. Although as a rule in the +laboratory we do not see the subject, and so this is the medium by +which we get a look at the surface of the hand. + +Sometime ago in Los Angeles a series of experiments was conducted +whereby--and this was on shooting victims, including only those where +they could be certain by other investigative means as to the exact +status of the case. One of the technicians placed the paraffin on the +hand. This was presented to the other technician who had no knowledge +of the case whatsoever. And that I guess must have included both the +controls of non-shooting victims as well as shooting victims. And the +net result was if this fellow almost flipped a coin he could be in the +ball park as far as whether or not this person had actually fired a +weapon. + +It just is not particularly accurate. + +I might go further to say that there have been several cases in which I +would say a fair amount of injustice was done to the defendant or the +suspect in the case simply because people have gone overboard on the +application of the paraffin test. + +It is one of these areas in which everyone would like a nice test. It +would certainly be beneficial. But it is not one in which a competent +technician places much confidence. + +Mr. DULLES. I understand that pipe smokers are quite likely to get +caught on these, on these tests. + +Mr. NICOL. Or someone who strikes a kitchen match, or in the spring, a +man fertilizing his lawn. A man working in the meatpacking industry, +where they preserve meats with nitrates, might also have difficulties. +Certain of the common things, such as urine, I think can be discounted, +because the diffused pattern can be easily determined. But as far as +pinpoints of striking a match, I could not differentiate one from the +other. + +Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much. + +Mr. NICOL. I realize this doesn't help. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Nicol, thank you very much, sir, for helping us. You +have been very helpful. + +Mr. NICOL. Thank you, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. We will recess at this time until 9 o'clock tomorrow +morning. + +(Whereupon, at 5:10 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +Transcriber's Notes: + + +Punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant +preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed. + +Misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be +due to mispronunciations were not changed. + +Some simple typographical errors were corrected. + +Inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained. + +Ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained. + +Occasional uses of "Mr." for "Mrs." and of "Mrs." for "Mr." corrected. + +Dubious repeated words, (e.g., "What took place by way of of +conversation?") retained. + +Several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied. + +Occasional periods that should be question marks not changed. + +Occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be +periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at +the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at +the beginning of a line). Some commas and semi-colons were printed so +faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and +corrected, but some almost certainly remain. + +The Index and illustrated Exhibits volumes of this series may not be +available at Project Gutenberg. + +Page 4: "Where is their main office?" was misprinted as "there"; +corrected here. + +Page 4: "No. I also visited my brother, in Yellow Springs, Ohio." was +misprinted as "visited by"; corrected here. + +Page 14: the name "James P. Hasty" should be "James P. Hosty"; not +changed here. + +Page 15: Misspelling in "It was unfortun that" not changed. + +Page 15: Misspellings in "the stuip Cuban consule was at fault" not +changed. + +Page 16: Misspelling in "was a rather lengthly one?" not changed. + +Page 25: "otherway" not changed. + +Page 27: "Did she evidence any" was misprinted as "he"; corrected here. + +Page 54: Possible missing word in "of the Randle home looking West +Fifth Street?" + +Page 95: "(Commission Exhibits Nos. 451 and 453 through 456 were +received in evidence.)" "456" was misprinted as "465" but printed +correctly two lines earlier; corrected here. + +Page 136: "and improved my ability to converse" misprinted as "by +ability"; corrected here. + +Page 157: "Mr. Berlin. Well, sir, it is on one of your interviews +here." was misprinted as "Mr. Brennan."; corrected here. + +Page 166: "were certain books--if you" probably should be "where"; not +changed. + +Page 186: "In other words, there is a little difference in your memory +there on this." was printed as part of a statement by Mr. Brennan, but +may have been said by someone else. + +Page 208: "Mr. Jarman. After the third shot was fired I would say it +was about a minute." was printed as "Mr. Ball"; corrected here. + +Page 361: The measurement in "This was a 5- by 71-cm defect" probably +was misprinted; not changed here. + +Page 373: "whether it was an entrance wound or an exit wound," should +end with a question mark instead of a comma. + +Page 409: "so what when the shot was fired" probably should be "so that +when". + +Page 414: "Would that trend to improve the shooter's marksmanship?" +probably should be "tend". + +Page 428: "This the cartridge case from the building, Exhibit 545." +probably should be "This is the". + +Page 477: "And then it was returned November 17, 1963." Incorrect date, +should be no earlier than November 23, 1963. + +Page 481: "So in you opinion" should be "your". + +Page 481: "Mr. Cunningham. Yes, sir; well--these would be very +difficult--in other" is an incomplete sentence. + +Page 481: "A small sample was taken off the noise" probably should be +"nose". + +Page 487: "the cast of both hand" was printed that way. + + + + + + + +End of the Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (3 of 26): Hearings +Vol. III (of 15), by The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy + +*** END OF THE PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK 44003 *** |