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diff --git a/44002.txt b/44002.txt deleted file mode 100644 index fa62ebb..0000000 --- a/44002.txt +++ /dev/null @@ -1,51205 +0,0 @@ -The Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (2 of 26): Hearings Vol. -II (of 15), by The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - -This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere at no cost and with -almost no restrictions whatsoever. You may copy it, give it away or -re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included -with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.org - - -Title: Warren Commission (2 of 26): Hearings Vol. II (of 15) - -Author: The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - -Release Date: October 19, 2013 [EBook #44002] - -Language: English - -Character set encoding: ASCII - -*** START OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION - HEARINGS V2 *** - - - - -Produced by Curtis Weyant, Charlene Taylor, Charlie Howard, -and the Online Distributed Proofreading Team at -http://www.pgdp.net. Images generously provided by -www.history-matters.com. - - - - - - - - INVESTIGATION OF - THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - HEARINGS - Before the President's Commission - on the Assassination - of President Kennedy - -PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, an Executive order creating a -Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating -to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the -subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and -S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon -the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine -witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas - -_Volume_ II - - -UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE - -WASHINGTON, D.C. - - -U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964 - -For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. -Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402 - - - - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE - ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY - - - CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_ - - SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL - SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER - REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS - REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD - MR. ALLEN W. DULLES - MR. JOHN J. McCLOY - - - J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_ - - - _Assistant Counsel_ - - FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS - JOSEPH A. BALL - DAVID W. BELIN - WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr. - MELVIN ARON EISENBERG - BURT W. GRIFFIN - LEON D. HUBERT, Jr. - ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr. - WESLEY J. LIEBELER - NORMAN REDLICH - W. DAVID SLAWSON - ARLEN SPECTER - SAMUEL A. STERN - HOWARD P. WILLENS[A] - -[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the -Department of Justice. - - - _Staff Members_ - - PHILLIP BARSON - EDWARD A. CONROY - JOHN HART ELY - ALFRED GOLDBERG - MURRAY J. LAULICHT - ARTHUR MARMOR - RICHARD M. MOSK - JOHN J. O'BRIEN - STUART POLLAK - ALFREDDA SCOBEY - CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr. - - -Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found -in the Commission's _Report_. - - - - -Preface - - -The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume II: -James Herbert Martin, who acted for a brief period as the business -manager of Mrs. Marina Oswald; Mark Lane, a New York attorney; William -Robert Greer, who was driving the President's car at the time of the -assassination; Roy H. Kellerman, a Secret Service agent who sat to the -right of Greer; Clinton J. Hill, a Secret Service agent who was in -the car behind the President's car; Rufus Wayne Youngblood, a Secret -Service agent who rode in the car with then Vice President Johnson; -Robert Hill Jackson, a newspaper photographer who rode in a car at the -end of the motorcade; Arnold Louis Rowland, James Richard Worrell, Jr., -and Amos Lee Euins, who were present at the assassination scene; Buell -Wesley Frazier, who drove Lee Harvey Oswald home on the evening of -November 21, and back to work on the morning of November 22; Linnie Mae -Randle, Buell Wesley Frazier's sister; Cortlandt Cunningham, a firearms -identification expert with the Federal Bureau of Investigation; -William Wayne Whaley, a taxicab driver, and Cecil J. McWatters, a -busdriver, who testified concerning Oswald's movements following the -assassination; Mrs. Katherine Ford, Declan P. Ford, and Peter Paul -Gregory, acquaintances of Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife; Comdr. James -J. Humes, Comdr. J. Thornton Boswell, and Lt. Col. Pierre A. Finck, -who performed the autopsy on the President at Bethesda Naval Hospital; -and Michael R. Paine and Ruth Hyde Paine, acquaintances of Lee Harvey -Oswald and his wife. - - - - -Contents - - Page - Preface v - - Testimony of-- - James Herber Martin (resumed) 1 - Mark Lane 32 - Roy H. Kellerman 61 - William Robert Greer 112 - Clinton J. Hill 132 - Rufus Wayne Youngblood 144 - Robert Hill Jackson 155 - Arnold Louis Rowland 165 - James Richard Worrell, Jr 190 - Amos Lee Euins 201 - Buell Wesley Frazier 210 - Linnie Mae Randle 245 - Cortlandt Cunningham 251 - William Wayne Whaley 253, 292 - Cecil J. McWatters 262 - Katherine Ford 295 - Declan P. Ford 322 - Peter Paul Gregory 337 - James J. Humes 348 - J. Thornton Boswell 376 - Pierre A. Finck 377 - Michael R. Paine 384 - Ruth Hyde Paine 430 - - -COMMISSION EXHIBITS INTRODUCED - - Exhibit No.: Page - 328 1 - 329 2 - 330 2 - 331 15 - 332 22 - 333 29 - 334 38 - 335 38 - 336 38 - 337 38 - 338 38 - 339 38 - 340 38 - 341 38 - 342 38 - 343 54 - 344 64 - 345 64 - 346 65 - 347 72 - 348 72 - 349 85 - 350 86 - 351 92 - 352 95 - 353 95 - 354 155 - 355 155 - 356 189 - 357 189 - 358 189 - 359 198 - 360 198 - 361 198 - 362 198 - 365 210 - 366 210 - 367 210 - 368 257 - 369 257 - 370 261 - 371 257 - 372 268 - 373 273 - 374 274 - 375 274 - 376 275 - 377 279 - 378 282 - 379 286 - 380 286 - 381-A 287 - 382 292 - 383-A 292 - 384 340 - 385 353 - 386 353 - 387 353 - 388 353 - 389 353 - 390 353 - 391 359 - 392 362 - 393 365 - 394 365 - 395 365 - 396 367 - 397 374 - 398 374 - 399 374 - 400 380 - 401 445 - 402 455 - 403 477 - 404 479 - 404-A 479 - 405 480 - 406 480 - 407 483 - 408 483 - 408-A 483 - 409 490 - 409-A 490 - 409-B 490 - 410 494 - 411 496 - 412 496 - 413 496 - 414 496 - 415 498 - 416 498 - 417 498 - 418 498 - 419 500 - 420 501 - 421 501 - 422 502 - 423 502 - 424 502 - - - - -Hearings Before the President's Commission - -on the - -Assassination of President Kennedy - - - - -_Thursday, February 27, 1964--Afternoon Session_ - -TESTIMONY OF JAMES HERBERT MARTIN RESUMED - - -The President's Commission reconvened at 3 p.m. - -Mr. DULLES. Gentlemen, the Commission will come to order. - -Are you ready to continue the testimony, Mr. Martin? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Will you carry forward, Mr. Redlich? - -Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I would like to hand you a group of newspaper -clippings which have not as yet been introduced in evidence and I would -ask you to look through them and to pick out any which you feel create -an image of Mrs. Marina Oswald which you feel does not conform to the -reality of her personality, as you know it, and ask you in regard to -each one to tell us in what respect the facts as reported in each of -these clippings do not conform to the real person as you know her. - -Mr. DULLES. I assume we can avoid repetition, can't we? - -Mr. REDLICH. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. Incidents here have been touched on in other papers and we -don't need to touch them again. - -Mr. REDLICH. Yes, Mr. Chairman. - -During the intermission we have gone through all of the newspaper -clippings and eliminated the duplicate stories and hope to eliminate -duplicate facts as we go along. - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, this one is inaccurate that it doesn't have anything -to do with her image, so to speak. It says she spent Christmas---- - -Mr. REDLICH. For the sake of the record if we are going to have comment -on them I would like to have them introduced as evidence because the -record wouldn't state what they are about. - -Are you going to make comment? - -Mr. MARTIN. Do you want me to? - -Mr. REDLICH. If you are going to make comment about it, if you feel -there is some inaccuracy here then I would like to introduce that in -evidence, since apparently you are. - -Mr. MARTIN. It is inaccurate as far as the date in the article is -concerned. - -Mr. REDLICH. The witness has handed to us a newspaper story which we -have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 328. - -Mr. DULLES. Could we have the inaccuracy mentioned here? - -Mr. REDLICH. Yes, the headline of which is "Mrs. Oswald Will Bare Life -of Mate" and I request it be admitted in evidence. - -Mr. DULLES. Any objection? - -Mr. LEECH. No. - -Mr. DULLES. It will be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 328 for -identification and received in evidence.) - -Mr. REDLICH. I show you Commission Exhibit No. 328 and ask you if there -are any inaccuracies in that statement. - -Mr. MARTIN. "Mrs. Oswald and Her Children Now Make Their Home at an -Undisclosed Hotel" which is inaccurate--"and it was in that motel room, -somewhere in the Dallas-Fort Worth area that the youngest Oswald child -spent her first Christmas. There was a tree, toys and even a visit from -Mrs. Oswald's brother who lives 30 miles to the north in Denton, Tex." - -That was the inaccuracy that she spent Christmas not in a motel but in -our home. - -Mr. DULLES. That is about from 3 o'clock in the afternoon as I recall -until 7:30 in the evening. - -Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; that was Thanksgiving. - -Mr. DULLES. That was Thanksgiving. Spent the whole day of Christmas in -your home? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, she lived there. She was at our home 24 hours a day. - -This one-- - -Mr. REDLICH. The witness has produced before the Commission a newspaper -story which we have labeled as Commission Exhibit No. 329, the headline -of which reads, "Money Gifts to Tippit's Near $200,000 Mark." - -Mr. Chairman, I request that Commission Exhibit No. 329 be admitted in -evidence. - -Mr. DULLES. Any objection? - -Mr. LEECH. No. - -Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 329 for -identification and received in evidence.) - -Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I hand you Exhibit No. 329 and ask you if it -is inaccurate in any respect. - -Mr. MARTIN. The article states that Mrs. Shirley Williamson, a Fort -Worth housewife, who felt compassion for the widow, Mrs. Oswald, and -the two babies said the fund for the Russian-born widow had reached -$76,000." - -The fund that Mrs. Williamson collected amounted to some $2,600. That -was her total. That is the inaccuracy there. - -Mr. DULLES. Is she referring to the funds she collected or the whole -collections? - -Mr. MARTIN. Her funds. This has come up numerous times. We even called -her about it one time. She had given out press releases that she had -collected personally, I think, in excess of $8,000, whereas what she -was doing was adding what she had collected to what had already been -sent to Marina, and saying that she was holding that money. - -Mr. DULLES. But even that total is exaggerated, is it not? - -Mr. MARTIN. At that time, yes. - -Mr. DULLES. The total collections? - -Mr. MARTIN. At that time, yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, this article also makes reference to the fund -on behalf of the wife of Officer Tippit with which, of course, you have -no connection. - -I would like to ask you, however, whether at the time you extended the -offer to Marina Oswald to live in your home you were aware of the fact -that there were funds being raised for Officer Tippit's wife. - -Mr. MARTIN. I was undoubtedly aware of it but I don't recall any -conscious knowledge of it or thinking of it. - -Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall whether you were aware at the time that -there were any funds coming in on behalf of Mrs. Oswald? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. You were not aware? - -Mr. MARTIN. Not aware, no. - -Mr. REDLICH. The witness has offered to, has presented to, the -Commission a newspaper story appearing in the Buffalo Evening News, -December 7, 1963, headline of which reads, "Oswald's Widow Reported -Hoping to be U.S. Citizen." - -This story has been identified as Commission Exhibit No. 330 and I ask -that it be introduced in evidence. - -Mr. DULLES. Any objection? - -Mr. LEECH. None. - -Mr. DULLES. Accepted. - -(The newspaper article referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. -330 for identification and received in evidence.) - -Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I show you Commission's Exhibit No. 330 -and ask you if it is inaccurate in any respect to the best of your -knowledge? - -Mr. MARTIN. In the second paragraph it says, "Mrs. Oswald, 23," which -is inaccurate--"Russian-born Mother of Three--" - -Mr. REDLICH. Will you state the inaccuracy? - -Mr. MARTIN. The age is inaccurate. She is 22, "Russian-born Mother of -Three" that is inaccurate. She is the mother of two, "burst into tears -when she learned at least $7,700 had been sent to her by sympathetic -Americans." - -There was no burst of tears. - -Mr. REDLICH. Will you tell the Commission what the reaction was? - -Mr. MARTIN. I would say of happiness rather than--she was glad that -that was there, which is normal. - -Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall anything she told you? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. This was December 7. No, I have no recollection of -anything that she said? - -Mr. DULLES. Didn't you testify before, maybe it is with regard to -another or similar clipping, that she had some reference to the silly -Americans who were giving this money? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, it was a comment she had made at sometime or another. -I don't know whether it was during this particular thing or not. I -think it was further on. - -Mr. DULLES. On a similar occasion? - -Mr. MARTIN. A little later date, yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, you have commented on the respects in which -the newspaper clippings were at variance with the facts about Marina -Oswald as you knew them. - -Are there any other facts which perhaps were not reflected in these -clippings but which you might be aware of in respect to which the -public image of Marina Oswald differed from the true person that you -knew on the basis of your contact with her? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. Of course, she is not the least bit frugal. She spends -money quite freely, which it is her money to spend, but it won't last -very long at the rate it is going. - -Mr. REDLICH. In connection with that did Marina Oswald ever discuss -with you the financial difficulties she may have encountered while she -was married to Lee Oswald? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. She remarked one time that she had always wished for -$500 just to do with as she wanted. She also mentioned that the small -amount of money that it took them to live upon. She said it ran between -$130 and $135 a month. - -Representative FORD. Did she complain about this limited amount? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. I asked her how she could live on that little and she -said well, all they had was rent and food, and occasionally she would -get a dress or get a pair of shoes. She said that she didn't object to -it. - -Representative FORD. But when more money became available she found -ways and means of spending it? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Well, she mentioned one time to me that--I told her -she was spending too much money, and she said, "Well, when it is all -gone I will go to work." That is---- - -Mr. DULLES. That is a little Russian, may I say for the record. - -Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, this Commission has recovered information to -the effect that the public announcements which you made concerning the -amount of funds which had been collected on Marina Oswald's behalf -actually reflected figures that were less than the amount which had -actually been collected on her behalf. - -Without getting into specific figures at this time, are these reports -correct in your opinion? - -Mr. MARTIN. Which report? - -Mr. REDLICH. The report---- - -Mr. MARTIN. Oh, yes, we were obtaining a smaller figure, that is true. - -Mr. REDLICH. That is true. Did you consult with Marina Oswald on this -policy on reporting to the press a lesser figure than had actually been -collected? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. What was your reason for doing it? - -Mr. MARTIN. To--well, the money she had collected was considerable, and -most people in their life don't accumulate that much money in their -entire lifetime. - -What we were trying to do for her was to build enough of a--enough -capital to furnish her from the interest a steady income. And by -keeping the figure down figured it would increase. - -Mr. REDLICH. I don't want to put words in your mouth. Could you be a -little more specific about your reason? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, so people would keep contributing to her cause. - -Mr. REDLICH. And she was in accord with this policy of keeping the -public amount at a low figure so that people would contribute to her -cause? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. I would like to revert to a point that you made this -morning to clear up the record. You said that you left your job at the -Six Flags Inn Motel because of your obligations to Marina Oswald. Did -you leave the job voluntarily or were you fired? - -Mr. MARTIN. I left voluntarily. I actually left on the 15th of -December, and I had a week's vacation coming, they gave me that which -paid me to the 1st of January. - -Mr. REDLICH. When you met Mrs. Oswald in late November and in your -conversations with her at that time, did she discuss with you the fact -of her husband's trip to Mexico? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Are you now---- - -Mr. MARTIN. She did at a later date, sometime in January before she -went to the Commission. - -Mr. REDLICH. When did you first learn of Lee Oswald's trip to Mexico? - -Mr. MARTIN. I guess it was from newspaper accounts. - -Mr. REDLICH. When you read it in the newspapers did you ask Marina -about it? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. What prompted you to discuss with Marina in January the -question of her knowledge about it? - -Mr. MARTIN. Let's see--she told me when the FBI was questioning her -one day, she told me that they had information that he had attempted -suicide, and that particular day she didn't want to see the FBI at all, -and she was a little bit unhappy with them and I just asked her what -else did she learn. - -Mr. REDLICH. Who else was present at this conversation? - -Mr. MARTIN. I don't think anybody. - -Mr. REDLICH. Just you and Mrs. Oswald? - -Mr. DULLES. Who was this who had attempted suicide, I didn't catch that? - -Mr. MARTIN. Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. DULLES. At what time? - -Mr. MARTIN. That was in Russia sometime before, I think before he met -her. - -Mr. DULLES. And she said she had heard this from the FBI or the FBI had -asked her about it? - -Mr. MARTIN. The FBI had read, I think, in his manuscript that he had -attempted suicide. - -Mr. DULLES. And they asked her about it? - -Mr. MARTIN. She didn't know that. Yes. And at that time I asked her if -she learned anything else, and she said no, but that they still didn't -know that she knew that he had gone to Mexico, and at that time we -were talking about the Commission, that general area of time, and I -mentioned to be sure to tell the truth to the Commission. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did you ask her why she had not revealed knowledge of her -trip--of her knowledge of Lee Oswald's trip to Mexico? - -Mr. MARTIN. I can't recall exactly whether I did or not. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did you ask her? - -Mr. MARTIN. I have a recollection but I have no idea what was said. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did you and she discuss the purpose of Lee Oswald's trip -to Mexico? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Do you say you advised her to tell this Commission about -that trip to Mexico? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. When you were here and she testified did you inquire of -her as to whether in fact she did tell this Commission about the trip -to Mexico? - -Mr. MARTIN. I inquired of John Thorne and he said that she had. - -Mr. REDLICH. But in connection with the Nixon incident, you indicated -earlier in your testimony that you had not inquired of her as to -whether she had told this Commission about the Nixon incident. - -Mr. MARTIN. Right. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did you think that the Nixon incident was of less -importance than the Mexican trip? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, I didn't quite believe the Nixon incident. - -Mr. REDLICH. Do you believe it now? - -Mr. MARTIN. I don't know. I don't know if there is any corroboration -other than her say so. - -Mr. REDLICH. It was because you had doubts about the actual existence -of the incident that you didn't pursue with her the question as to -whether she should tell this Commission about it? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I didn't tell her not to say anything about it. I -didn't mention it specifically at all. The only thing I told her to do -was to tell the Commission the truth in all cases. - -Mr. REDLICH. At the conclusion of each day's testimony while she was -here before this Commission did you discuss the nature of her testimony -with her? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. I asked her how the day went. And she would tell me, -"fine," and that was the end of it. - -Mr. REDLICH. But you did inquire specifically about the Mexico trip? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Because I knew she lied about that to the FBI. - -Mr. REDLICH. Are there any other incidents you knew she had lied about -to the FBI? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. That is the only one? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did you and Marina Oswald ever discuss the question of her -husband's rifle practice? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. The only time I recall that ever being asked of her was -at the press conference here in Washington, and I never specifically -asked her at all, whether he practiced. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did you ever discuss with her the question of Lee Oswald's -ownership of a rifle? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. When you discussed the General Walker incident with her, -did you discuss his ownership of a rifle? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. The only thing, I think about the only thing I asked -her about that was how he got there and how he got back. - -Mr. REDLICH. What did she say? - -Mr. MARTIN. She said he walked and took the bus. - -Mr. REDLICH. And you didn't ask her what weapon he had shot at General -Walker with? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. That was in the newspaper, it was a rifle. And there -were many things I didn't ask about because I was previously informed -through the news or I thought I was anyway. - -Mr. REDLICH. You specifically, with regard to the rifle, you are -telling this Commission that you had no conversations with Marina -Oswald concerning her husband's practice with the rifle either in -Dallas or in New Orleans. - -Mr. MARTIN. Let's see--I think I did discuss with her one time at the -rifle range out in Grand Prairie was it, wherever it was, that the -owner had seen Lee Harvey Oswald out there with a rifle, and he drove -up in a car. - -Mr. REDLICH. Who is "they"? - -Mr. MARTIN. The owner of the rifle range. - -Mr. REDLICH. You say they drove up in a car? - -Mr. MARTIN. He drove up in a car. - -Mr. REDLICH. The owner of the rifle range? - -Mr. MARTIN. No; Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. REDLICH. Drove to the rifle range in a car? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. And---- - -Mr. DULLES. Did he drive himself? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, this is a report from the rifle range owner who said -he had seen Lee Harvey Oswald there on numerous occasions practicing, -and that he drove up in a car by himself. He always came by himself, -and I did ask her if he could drive and she said no, definitely. - -Mr. REDLICH. Where did you read this report or where did you hear about -it? - -Mr. MARTIN. It was right after the start there, in the Dallas papers. - -Mr. REDLICH. This was something you read. This was not a personal -conversation you had with the owner of the rifle range? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, it was a newspaper account. - -Mr. REDLICH. Were there any other conversations you had with Mrs. -Oswald concerning rifle practice? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did you have any conversations with her concerning Lee -Oswald's ability as a rifleman? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did Mrs. Oswald ever discuss with you the fears that she -claims to have had that Lee Oswald would attempt to kill a public -figure as a result specifically of the Walker incident? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, other than when she told me that she told him that -if he tried anything similar to the Walker incident she would have -him arrested. And she never mentioned to me a particular figure that -he would do anything like that. She evidently had it though or she -wouldn't have made the threat to him. - -Mr. REDLICH. Other than the Nixon incident, and the Walker incident, -Mrs. Oswald never related to you any other specific incident with -regard to the attempt to take the life of anyone? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Representative FORD. Did Mrs. Oswald, Marina, ever indicate to you -her feeling toward guns; did she ever indicate any apprehension about -having one in the house? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Representative FORD. Related to rifles, pistols? - -Mr. MARTIN. I have a 22 rifle in the house, for instance. Of course, -she may never have seen it. But I don't believe the question ever came -up at all. - -Representative FORD. She never indicated to you that she had told Lee -Harvey Oswald that she was apprehensive about his use of a gun or his -having a gun in the household? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I would like to ask you whether Mrs. Oswald -ever discussed with you any aspects of the life of Marina Oswald and -Lee Harvey Oswald while they were in Russia. - -Mr. MARTIN. Let's see now--she mentioned one time to both my wife and -I that Lee had gone to Moscow, I believe, and an old boy friend called -her up and she went out with him while Lee was gone. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did she indicate to you at that time the purpose of Lee's -trip to Moscow? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did she indicate to you whether she had told Lee about her -going out with this old boy friend? - -Mr. MARTIN. She said she did tell him. - -Mr. REDLICH. By the way, would you recall when Lee made this trip to -Moscow? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't think she mentioned the date at all. She may -have but I don't recall. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did she indicate in connection with this trip of Lee -Oswald to Moscow that she herself subsequently went to Moscow while he -was there? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. I think she said he was gone one day or one night and -came back the next day. - -Mr. REDLICH. So that on the basis of your recollection, if there was a -trip in which Lee Oswald went to Moscow and she joined him there this -was a different trip from the one you are talking about? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Is that right? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Just to make sure of this you say to the best of your -recollection she said he went there for one day and returned? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Can you think of any other aspects of their life in the -Soviet Union that Marina discussed with you. - -Mr. MARTIN. He used to like her aunt. Now, which aunt I don't know. -Yes, I do. It is the aunt that is working as a secretary and her -husband is on a pension. She has an aunt and an uncle by blood. - -Now, the aunt's husband is on a pension, and the uncle's--The uncle is -a lieutenant colonel in the Soviet Army. - -Mr. REDLICH. Now, the aunt and uncle that you say she liked very much, -is this the aunt and uncle with whom she was living at the time she met -Lee Oswald or is this a different aunt and uncle? - -Mr. MARTIN. That was all very--always confusing to me because she -wouldn't call the spouse of the aunt, for instance, her uncle, and I -couldn't tell all the time which party she was talking about. - -Mr. DULLES. These were both relatives to Marina, therefore, they were -not married. - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, no; they were not married to each other. - -Mr. DULLES. That is what I mean, yes. - -Mr. MARTIN. There were two couples, and the aunt in one couple and the -uncle in the other couple. But she didn't refer to the opposite spouse -as an aunt and uncle. - -Mr. REDLICH. Does the name Berlov refresh your recollection any? - -Mr. MARTIN. Berlov? - -Representative FORD. Did Marina ever indicate to you anything about her -education, what school she attended? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, just the school of pharmacy, and she compared her grade -school or our grade school, which is, I guess similar to our grade -school in high school or junior high, anyway. - -Representative FORD. She only referred to the pharmacy training? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Representative FORD. As any special training she received? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Representative FORD. But she did discuss that with you? - -Mr. MARTIN. Not at length. Just stated the fact that she had finished -pharmacy school. - -Representative FORD. But she didn't discuss any other training or -schooling of a special nature. - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Representative FORD. Did she ever discuss any special training that Lee -might have had while he was in Russia? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Representative FORD. Did she ever discuss Lee's employment while he was -in Russia? - -Mr. MARTIN. Only that he was unhappy where he was working. - -Representative FORD. Did she tell you where he worked, the kind of work -he was doing? - -Mr. MARTIN. I don't know, I have an idea it was in a factory of some -kind, whether she told me that or whether it was an assumption, I don't -know. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did she ever discuss their apartment, their living -quarters in Minsk? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, she said she had a one-room apartment, and had a -balcony on it, and that as soon as the baby was born they were going to -move to a larger one. I questioned her about that because I understand -it is quite difficult to get more than a one-room apartment in Russia -and she said, well, Lee was an American and he could get things the -Russians couldn't get. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did Mrs. Oswald give you the impression that in general -she and Lee Oswald had better treatment than other Russians? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, and actually her past life even before she met Lee -seemed a little bit strange to me, going to the opera, taking vacations -and holidays as she says. I understand it is quite expensive to go to -the opera, and she was making, what did she say, 45 rubles a month, and -she would take a girl friend with her when she went to the opera. - -Now, how much that cost, I don't know. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did you ever question her about her financial situation in -Russia? - -Mr. MARTIN. I asked her how she could afford it and she said she got -by. She was living at home or with her aunt and uncle. So I imagine -their expenses there weren't high. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did she mention any extra income which Lee Harvey Oswald -may have had apart from his job? - -Mr. MARTIN. No; I asked her about that specifically because I had heard -an account that he was supposed to be getting Western Union money -orders, and asked her about that. She didn't know what a Western Union -money order was, for one thing, so I reworded the question and asked if -he was getting money from anyone else other than where he was working, -and she said no. - -Mr. REDLICH. This was true of this life in the Soviet Union? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, apparently. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever discuss with you the uncle with whom she -lived who was apparently a lieutenant colonel in the Soviet army? - -Mr. MARTIN. No; except she didn't like him. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did she say why? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. She preferred her aunt, who has the husband on the -pension. - -Mr. REDLICH. Can you search your memory at this point and tell this -Commission anything that you have not yet told us about Marina's -conversations with you concerning her life in the Soviet Union? - -Mr. MARTIN. Her aunt used to bring food and liquor home after parties -had at the government building where she was working. Other than -talking about--she pulled one tooth out before she came to the United -States. A tooth was either crooked or broken and she pulled the tooth -out. That caused the other one to twist. I don't know what that was. - -Representative FORD. Did Marina ever indicate to you while she was in -the Soviet Union that she drank beer, wine, liquor? - -Mr. MARTIN. Vodka. - -Representative FORD. When she came to the United States, you could -observe it, did she drink beer, wine, liquor of any kind? - -Mr. MARTIN. She drank, I guess she drank a bottle of beer every day, -and occasionally she would drink some vodka. - -Representative FORD. But not a heavy drinker? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, have you ever been curious about how Mrs. -Oswald was ever able to leave the Soviet Union? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, I wasn't, until Don Levine brought up the subject. Of -course, I have no idea what it entails to get into Russia or out of it -as far as that is concerned. - -But according to Mr. Levine, it is extremely difficult for people to -get out of Russia, especially when they have had the training that -Marina has had. - -Mr. REDLICH. By training you mean what? - -Mr. MARTIN. Pharmacy. He said they spent quite a bit of money on her -training, and he doesn't understand how she got out of Russia on such -short notice. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did you ever ask this question of Marina Oswald? - -Mr. MARTIN. She said that Lee arranged it, and that is all she would -say. - -Mr. REDLICH. She never discussed any other aspect of her departure from -the Soviet Union? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. Let's see, they were in Moscow, she waited a couple -of days while he was, how did she put it, collecting money or getting -money together to come over to the States. I have forgotten the name -of the hotel they stayed in. She even remarked they had pancakes every -morning and she didn't like pancakes. - -Mr. REDLICH. In terms of her official negotiations to leave the Soviet -Union, you asked her nothing other than the question that I have -already discussed with you? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, she said that Lee arranged everything. - -Mr. REDLICH. I would like to ask you a few questions now about some of -the individuals that Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald knew in Fort Worth -and Dallas, and ask you in each case whether Marina Oswald discussed -any of these individuals with you. - -The first is George Bouhe. - -Mr. MARTIN. I know the name but I don't think Marina has ever mentioned -him; Katya Ford has though. - -Mr. REDLICH. Are you personally acquainted with George Bouhe? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us what Katya Ford has told you about Mr. -Bouhe? - -Mr. MARTIN. It was relating to Marina--I think Katya Ford and Bouhe are -friends, and they had been discussing Marina all the time she was in -seclusion, and wondering what had happened to her, where she was. Now -this was after the news was out where she was. - -Mr. REDLICH. Are you acquainted with---- - -Mr. DULLES. Excuse me, by "in seclusion", you mean at the time she was -with you in your house? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, and the press didn't know where she was. - -Mr. DULLES. I see. - -Mr. REDLICH. Are you acquainted with George De Mohrenschildt or his -wife Jean De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever discussed either George or Jean De -Mohrenschildt with Marina Oswald? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever discussed George and Jean De Mohrenschildt -with anyone else? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you ever hear the name mentioned before? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. I think I would remember that name. - -Mr. REDLICH. Are you personally acquainted with Peter Gregory? - -Mr. MARTIN. I met him once, maybe twice, at the Inn. He was -interpreting for Marina, for the Secret Service, I believe, before Lee -Gopadze got there. - -Mr. REDLICH. Do you know who he is? - -Mr. MARTIN. I understand he is a geologist, and he also teaches Russian. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever discuss either Peter Gregory or Paul -Gregory with you? - -Mr. MARTIN. She mentioned--I don't know which one. - -Mr. REDLICH. One is the father and one is a son. - -Mr. MARTIN. I think it is the older gentleman that I met. She mentioned -that she liked him. - -Mr. REDLICH. The older gentleman? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. And I think she corresponded with him. I know she -corresponded with him. - -Mr. REDLICH. Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Gregory's son? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever met him? - -Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge. - -Mr. REDLICH. You have had no conversations with anyone else about him? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. We were--I think John Thorne and I were talking about -at sometime we may need an interpreter, and I mentioned his name in -that instance. - -Mr. REDLICH. That would be the elder Mr. Gregory? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. But nothing on Paul Gregory. - -Mr. REDLICH. Nothing on Paul Gregory? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Are you aware of the fact that Paul Gregory is a student -at the University of Oklahoma? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever discuss with you the fact that she had -helped tutor the son of Peter Gregory? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Are you familiar with--strike that. Do you have any -personal acquaintanceship with Gary Taylor? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever heard the name of Gary Taylor? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Marina Oswald has never discussed that name with you? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Do you know Mrs. Elena Hall? - -Mr. MARTIN. Elena Hall? No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Has Marina ever discussed her with you? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. The name John R. Hall, who is the husband of Mrs. Elena -Hall? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, it sounded a little familiar but I can't place anything -on it. - -Mr. REDLICH. Do you know Mrs. Katherine Ford? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us how you came to know her? - -Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, she had contacted Marina a couple of times by -letter, and---- - -Representative FORD. While she was staying at your home? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes--well, she sent the letter to Grand Prairie, the -letters, Christmas cards, and I think two letters after that. So I -called her and Marina wanted to, expressed a desire to, talk to her. So -I called her and Marina talked to her on the phone. I think every time -she talked to her she talked nearly an hour. - -Representative FORD. In Russian or in English? - -Mr. MARTIN. In Russian. - -Mr. DULLES. Was it on the telephone? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever tell you the gist of these conversations? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever relate to you whether she had ever lived -in Mrs. Ford's home? - -Mr. MARTIN. I believe she had for a very short time. - -Mr. REDLICH. You mean Marina related this to you? - -Mr. MARTIN. I think Mrs. Ford told me that. - -Mr. REDLICH. How did you get this knowledge, from Marina or from Mrs. -Ford? Did you ever discuss this with Marina? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. I know Marina likes her home, I mean likes the house -that they live in. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did you ever ask Marina how it came about that she was -separated from her husband and living at the home of Mrs. Ford? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did any of Marina's other Russian-speaking friends in the -Dallas-Fort Worth area write letters to her while she was at your home? - -Mr. MARTIN. Mrs. Paine wrote at least once a week and---- - -Mr. DULLES. Once a week? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Marina did not answer, didn't answer any of the -letters and didn't call her. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did Mrs. Paine attempt to reach Marina by phone? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, until I had my telephone number changed and then she -couldn't find the phone number so she came over to the house. - -Mr. REDLICH. What happened when she came to the house? - -Mr. MARTIN. Nothing, I let her in the house and Marina and the children -were back in the den and the Secret Service men went back into the den, -and I don't believe she knew that she was there. - -Mr. DULLES. Was the change in number, did it have anything to do with -Marina as objecting to receiving the calls? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. That was strictly because the press pressure. - -Mr. DULLES. The presence of the press? - -Mr. REDLICH. I would like to go back to this incident when Mrs. Paine -came to see Marina. You say Marina did not know that Mrs. Paine was -there? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, she knew it. - -Mr. REDLICH. She knew that Mrs. Paine was there? - -Mr. MARTIN. Mrs. Paine didn't know that Marina was there. - -Mr. REDLICH. But Marina knew that Mrs. Paine was there? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina see Mrs. Paine at that time? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did you talk to Marina at that time? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, before and after. - -Mr. REDLICH. At the time Mrs. Paine was there did you personally tell -Marina that Mrs. Paine wanted to see her? - -Mr. MARTIN. I told her before Mrs. Paine came in the door that Mrs. -Paine was here, and she said she didn't want to see her. She stayed in -the den, and Mrs. Paine was in the living room. - -Mr. REDLICH. Then did you convey this message to Mrs. Paine yourself? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Who did? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, she came with the intention or for the purpose of -bringing a package to Marina that she had received in the mail, and I -don't believe she knew that Marina was living there. I told her at that -time that because of security that Marina wasn't seeing anyone but I -don't believe she knew that Marina was at that address until later. - -Mr. REDLICH. When Mrs. Paine called your home prior to the change of -phone, did you speak to Mrs. Paine? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, my wife did. - -Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall the nature of the conversations between your -wife and Mrs. Paine as reported to you? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, let's see, she called and asked for Marina or asked -to get in touch with Marina. My wife gave me the number and I guess I -called her back. - -Mr. REDLICH. You called Mrs. Paine back? - -Mr. MARTIN. A day or two later, yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. What did you say to her? - -Mr. MARTIN. I told her that under the present circumstances she just -didn't want to see anybody, and also the security on her didn't permit -her to go out too far. That we could possibly arrange a meeting at some -middle point later on. - -Mr. REDLICH. Was Marina free to see anyone she wanted to see? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. And the reason she didn't see Mrs. Paine was because she -didn't want to see Mrs. Paine? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I asked her several times to call her, at least call -Mrs. Paine and tell her she didn't want to see her, and she just -shrugged her shoulders and said she didn't want to talk to her. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever tell you why she didn't want to talk to -her? - -Mr. MARTIN. She said something about Mrs. Paine talking too much, and -she didn't like Mrs. Paine's children. - -Mr. REDLICH. Were you aware at the time that Marina had lived with Mrs. -Paine? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Were you aware at the time that Mrs. Paine had taken the -Oswald family to New Orleans and had---- - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Gone to New Orleans and brought them back to Irving, Tex.? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, that is why I felt she owed Mrs. Paine something. - -Mr. REDLICH. What was Marina's attitude toward your comments? - -Mr. MARTIN. She just didn't want to talk to her. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did you yourself ever meet Mrs. Paine? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Would you describe that meeting? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, the first time I met her was we went over to the -Paine's house to pick up some of Marina's belongings. - -Mr. REDLICH. Who is "we"? - -Mr. MARTIN. John Thorne and I. - -Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall about when this was? - -Mr. MARTIN. I guess it was about a week after she had moved in, maybe -shorter, maybe sooner than that. There was not much said at all at that -meeting. Then when she came out to the house she talked at length, but -it was---- - -Mr. REDLICH. There is another occasion when you say she came? - -Mr. MARTIN. When she came to my house. - -Mr. REDLICH. That was the same occasion that you referred to earlier -when she came to pick up a package? - -Mr. MARTIN. To deliver a package. - -Mr. REDLICH. To deliver a package, I am sorry. Could you relate what -happened at that time? - -Mr. MARTIN. I was quite distracted by the children. It was rather a -stiff meeting or conversation. - -Representative FORD. This was the meeting at Mrs. Paine's house? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, my house. - -Representative FORD. Your house? - -Mr. MARTIN. Mrs. Paine brought, I think, a package and some food, -cookies, things like that, for Marina, and---- - -Mr. DULLES. Those are from Mrs. Paine to Marina, but the package was a -third---- - -Mr. MARTIN. The package came through the mail. - -Mr. DULLES. That you understand, but the cookies came from Mrs. Paine. - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -I believe she brought some toys for the children. What the toys were, -I don't recall. Her children were running back and forth through the -living room making quite a bit of noise. - -Mr. DULLES. Mrs. Paine's children? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. And I wasn't really paying too much attention to what -she was saying. I was wanting her to leave. I didn't ask her to leave -but I wasn't saying much to foster the conversation. Then she left in, -I guess, 15 minutes. - -Mr. REDLICH. What did Mrs. Paine say to you? - -Mr. MARTIN. Oh, boy---- - -Mr. DULLES. Was she disturbed, I mean was she annoyed, visibly annoyed, -that Marina wouldn't see her. She didn't know Marina was in the house, -I realize that. - -Mr. MARTIN. She didn't know Marina was in the house. I am certain she -didn't. - -Mr. REDLICH. You mean her children were running around the house -though, weren't they? - -Mr. MARTIN. Her children were running in the living room and dining -room. - -Mr. DULLES. But not into the den? - -Mr. MARTIN. But not into the den and kitchen. - -Representative FORD. Do you have a door on the den so you can close the -den off? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. She talked mostly about generalities and she would -like to see Marina to make sure she is well taken care of, and so on. -She was concerned about her. And she came back after that time, she -came back once more. I wasn't there. My wife answered the door and -didn't invite her in. - -Mr. DULLES. How long a trip is it from your house to Mrs. Paine's, -roughly, a few miles? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, a good 20 miles. - -Mr. DULLES. A good 20 miles? - -Mr. MARTIN. Because it is 30 miles out to the Inn, and she lives about -8 or 10 miles toward me from the Inn, so it is about 20 miles. - -Mr. REDLICH. Your wife did not invite Mrs. Paine into the house at that -time? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Was this at Marina's urging? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Mrs. Paine was quite upset at that--that is what Wanda -said, she looked upset at that time. - -Representative FORD. On this occasion, did Mrs. Paine know Marina was -in the house? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't believe so. - -Mr. DULLES. Did she ask where she was, specifically? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. DULLES. She didn't ask? - -Mr. REDLICH. What was the purpose of her visit? - -Mr. MARTIN. I don't believe--let's see, she may have brought something -that day, too. I don't recall whether she did or not. I know right -after that, the Civil Liberties Union got into it. Well, Mark Lane, was -first. - -Mr. REDLICH. You say right after that Mark Lane got into it? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Would you elaborate on that? - -Mr. MARTIN. Mark Lane came to Dallas, and contacted John Thorne and I. -We met him at the Statler and talked to him at lunch, and he expressed -a desire to talk to Marina Oswald so that he could represent her -husband, defend her husband in a hearing, and we told him that we would -relay that information to her. - -So we did, and she said that she didn't want to have any -representation. She didn't want any more---- - -Mr. REDLICH. You mean she didn't want any representation for Lee Oswald? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, she didn't want any more to do about it. - -Representative FORD. Can you recall the date of this visit by Mr. Lane? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Representative FORD. Was it in December or January? - -Mr. MARTIN. It was in January, I believe. - -Mr. REDLICH. And you transmitted Mr. Lane's message to Marina? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, and she said that she didn't want any representation -for Lee. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did you tell her this in English? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, and explained it to her, and at that time she could -understand. - -Mr. DULLES. To your knowledge, did Marina ever meet Mr. Lane? - -Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge, no. - -Mr. REDLICH. And you also related the Ruth Paine, second Ruth Paine, -visit to your home to something which you referred to as the American -Civil Liberties Union business. - -Mr. MARTIN. It was right after--these incidents happened rather -closely. The letter from the Civil Liberties Union--well, first we -received a telephone call from the Civil Liberties Union wanting to see -Marina Oswald. - -Representative FORD. Telephone call from Dallas or New York, or what? - -Mr. MARTIN. From Richardson, the same person who wrote the letter which -you have there. Do you have that? - -Mr. REDLICH. We do have. We are inventorying many of these documents of -which the American Civil Liberties letter is one and we will introduce -it at an appropriate time. - -Mr. MARTIN. Richardson is a suburb of Dallas. This gentleman called, -what was his name? - -Mr. LEECH. I can't remember it. - -Mr. REDLICH. Would it refresh your recollection if I mentioned the name -Olds? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, Greg Olds. He called on the phone and wanted to see -Marina Oswald, wanted to make sure she was being properly represented, -that she knew her rights, and so on and so forth. - -John Thorne talked to him, and told him that he represented Marina -Oswald, and that he was definitely sure that all her rights were being -observed. - -Then I think there was another phone call from them still wanting to -see Marina Oswald, and I talked to Marina and she said well, she would -talk to him. So they arranged a meeting with a third party, I can't -remember his name, who was a minister of some kind, and then Marina -changed her mind and said no, she didn't want to go at all, she didn't -want to talk to any of them. So then they wrote the letter. They wrote -a letter to her in Russian and sent one to me in English, one to John -Thorne in English, and I believe one to the Secret Service and one to -the FBI. - -Mr. LEECH. Do you want to mention about their press releases at this -time? - -Mr. MARTIN. There were a number of press releases at that time also -that she was being held incognito and not able to---- - -Mr. REDLICH. You mean incognito or incommunicado? - -Mr. MARTIN. Incommunicado. - -Representative FORD. Press releases by whom? - -Mr. MARTIN. The Civil Liberties Union, and so they sent this letter to -her and she answered it with a two-page letter in Russian. - -Representative FORD. In Russian? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Do you have a copy of that two-page letter? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. She wrote it, put it in an envelope, put a stamp on it -and I mailed it. I didn't open it or look in it in any way. And that -seemed to be the end of it, but they still persisted they wanted to see -her. - -Mr. REDLICH. And the reason Marina did not see them was entirely her -own volition? - -Mr. MARTIN. Her own. - -Mr. DULLES. She never talked to you about what was in the letter? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, she said she just told them she didn't want to see them. - -Mr. DULLES. In two pages? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; This was quoted, a portion of the letter was -quoted, in the Worker. - -Representative FORD. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that we get, if possible, -a copy of the original of that letter. - -Mr. MARTIN. You probably can get it from Greg Olds. - -Mr. DULLES. Would you make a note of that. I think we should do that. - -That was dated sometime in the middle of January? - -Mr. MARTIN. I believe so. The letter you have--she wadded the letter -up that was written to her in Russian and threw it away, and I got it -back out, and asked her to go ahead and write them a letter so it would -quiet them. So she said she would and she wrote a letter, I think, -that night, so it would be within a couple of days of the date of that -letter, the English copy of which you have. - -Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chairman, if you would like, we could take a 3- or -4-minute recess and I could get the American Civil Liberties Union -letter to Marina Oswald and introduce it at this time for the sake of -clarity in the record. - -Mr. DULLES. Good. It is a good time for a breather. - -(Short recess.) - -The CHAIRMAN. All right, gentlemen, the Commission will be in order. - -You are familiar with, Mr. Dulles, you are familiar with, the hearing -up to date. You go right ahead and preside, if you will. - -Mr. DULLES. Mr. Redlich will you go right ahead with your questions? - -Mr. REDLICH. I believe Congressman Ford, you said you wanted to ask -your questions prior to your leaving. - -Representative FORD. Do you wish to have that letter entered as an -exhibit at this point before I ask several questions? - -Mr. REDLICH. The witness has produced before this Commission a letter -which I now mark Commission Exhibit No. 331 on the Dallas Civil -Liberties Union stationery, addressed to Mr. John Thorne, James Martin, -Mr. Sorrels, Secret Service, Mrs. Lee H. Oswald, and the Federal Bureau -of Investigation. - -I ask that it be introduced in evidence. - -Mr. DULLES. Any objection? - -Mr. LEECH. No. - -Mr. DULLES. It will be introduced. - -(The letter referred to was marked for identification as Commission -Exhibit No. 331 and received in evidence.) - -The CHAIRMAN. Have you seen it? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chief Justice, we have introduced that because -just prior to the recess we were discussing it and Congressman Ford -indicated he had to leave I believe and I wanted to ask some questions. - -The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead. - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question on this letter for clarification? -It is my understanding it is your belief that Mrs. Oswald received a -copy of this letter in Russian? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, she received a letter on this letterhead written in -Russian. Now whether it was an exact copy, I don't know. - -Mr. DULLES. About the length of this letter as far as you could tell? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. At about the same time? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, it was the same day. - -Mr. DULLES. That was the letter she crumpled up and put in the -wastepaper basket? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. But you retrieved it from the wastepaper basket, did you -not say? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir, and asked her to answer it. - -Mr. DULLES. Where is that copy that you retrieved from the wastepaper -basket? - -Mr. MARTIN. I don't know. - -Mr. DULLES. Maybe reassigned to the wastepaper basket? - -Mr. MARTIN. It may have been, yes. - -Representative FORD. I believe that was the letter that Mr. Redlich -indicated he would get a copy from the Dallas Chapter of the American -Civil Liberties Union. - -Mr. MARTIN. Her answer is what he wanted to get. - -Mr. REDLICH. I think Congressman Ford is right. We might be able to get -both a copy of the letter and their answer. - -Mr. DULLES. Their statement in this letter is the English of the -Russian translation which they sent to her. I think it would be -adequate, wouldn't it? - -Mr. REDLICH. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. It seems to me it would be adequate for our purposes. - -Mr. REDLICH. We will contact the Dallas Division on that. - -Representative FORD. Marina testified here, and she has said elsewhere, -that based on the facts as she now knows them, she believes that Lee -was guilty of the assassination of President Kennedy. - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Representative FORD. Was that her attitude when you first met her? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, when I first met her, we didn't converse very well at -all. There was lack of communication because of the language barrier, -and I didn't discuss it with her probably until the latter part of -December, although she was speaking fairly good English by the 15th of -December. - -Representative FORD. When you first discussed it with her, what was her -attitude? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, she said she thought he was crazy. - -Representative FORD. But did she indicate when you first discussed the -question of guilt or not being guilty, what was her attitude? - -Mr. MARTIN. She thought he was guilty. - -Representative FORD. The first time you discussed the matter? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Representative FORD. Did she indicate why? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. I asked her why, and she said it was just a feeling. - -Representative FORD. At that point had she---- - -Mr. MARTIN. A woman's feeling. - -Representative FORD. At that point had she been given or shown the -evidence that had been accumulated by various agencies of the Federal -Government? - -Mr. MARTIN. I don't know. I assume she had through the FBI. The FBI -were showing her pictures and numerous things. I was not in on any of -the questioning at all. - -Mr. DULLES. Had she read the papers or had them read to her as far as -you know at that period? - -Mr. MARTIN. Some of them, yes. - -Mr. DULLES. Newspapers, I mean. - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Representative FORD. From that first conversation you had with her -about this matter, the guilt of Lee Harvey Oswald, she has never -changed her mind? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, and I have never heard her say anything other than he -was guilty. - -Representative FORD. Did you ever discuss with Marina the conversation -she had with Lee Harvey Oswald at the Dallas police station the day he -was apprehended or the day following. Or at any time prior to his death? - -Mr. MARTIN. The only time she said anything about it was that he told -her not to worry and to make sure and get the--get June a pair of shoes. - -Representative FORD. She told you that is what he said to her? - -Mr. MARTIN. That is what he said, yes. - -Representative FORD. There was nothing extraordinary that she told you -about the conversation? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, sir. - -Representative FORD. Other than what you have indicated? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. He said not to worry. Everything would be all right. - -Representative FORD. Did you ever ask her about this conversation -that she had with Lee Harvey Oswald while he was at the Dallas police -station? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Representative FORD. As her manager, as the manager of Marina, did you -have anything to do with the change of her appearance? Many people -have said to me the first picture they saw of her and the subsequent -pictures they saw of her she was wearing different kind of clothes. She -had a different hair-do, and so forth. Did you have anything to do with -that? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Representative FORD. What was the purpose of that? - -Mr. MARTIN. Just to change her general appearance so she wouldn't be -recognized when she went out. - -Representative FORD. Did she agree to this, was she willing to do it? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. She didn't like her haircut particularly. - -Representative FORD. She liked the previous way it was? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Representative FORD. How about the change in clothes, the type that she -wore? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, of course, that was for the better. - -Representative FORD. Did she like it? - -Mr. MARTIN. She liked the clothes, yes. - -Representative FORD. That is all. - -Mr. MARTIN. She tried makeup but that didn't work, because she couldn't -stand makeup. - -Mr. REDLICH. We previously asked you, Mr. Martin, about various people -that Marina Oswald knew in the Dallas-Fort Worth area and you have -indicated the extent to which you knew them personally and the extent -to which they had contacted Marina Oswald during the time she was in -your home. - -Are there any other friends of Marina Oswald's rather than those I have -asked you about that you--who attempted to contact her while she was -living at your home? - -Mr. MARTIN. Ilya, I believe it is Mamatav or Mamantov--he is of the -Dallas Police Department and he has asked of her how she is. - -Mr. REDLICH. Has he ever seen her, to the best of your knowledge other -than in an official capacity? - -(At this point, Congressman Ford left the hearing room.) - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, one time when we went to Sears, Sears Roebuck in -Dallas, and walked into the store he was walking and practically ran -into her, and they said hello and passed the time of day and he left. - -Mr. REDLICH. There were no other friends of hers that you know about -who attempted to see her or call her while she was living at your home? - -Other than those we have already discussed on the record? If I -mentioned the name of Mr. or Mrs. Teofil Meller--the first name is -Teofil, the last name is Meller. - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, there was someone that called the office one day and -had a rather odd name, was that Meller, and said that Marina wanted to -talk to her, and we took it just for a crank call. She wouldn't leave -the number or anything like that. I am not sure whether that was Meller. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. MARTIN. There was no telephone number involved. - -Mr. REDLICH. You have discussed at length the attempt of Ruth Paine to -see Mrs. Oswald. Did Mike Paine ever attempt to see Mrs. Oswald while -she was living at your home? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever talked to Michael Paine? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. When we went over to get the clothes, for instance, he -stood back--I don't believe he said anything at all. It was a very odd -situation. He was helping us move things but he didn't say anything. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever discuss Michael Paine with you? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Only Ruth Paine but not Michael Paine? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. She said they were separated. - -Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, did Marina ever discuss with you her husband's -desire to go to Cuba? - -Mr. MARTIN. She said that he had wanted to go to Cuba because he -wanted--because he wasn't happy in Russia and he wasn't happy in the -United States and then she said he wouldn't be happy in Cuba either. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did she ever discuss with you a plan to hi-jack a plane? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did she ever indicate what steps he was taking to get to -Cuba? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. Not at all. - -Mr. REDLICH. Do you have any knowledge at all of any plans he was -making to get to and live in Cuba? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Ford has asked you about the conversations which -Marina had with Lee Oswald at the Dallas Police Station on November 23 -and you have replied. I would like to ask you about any--your knowledge -about any conversation which Robert Oswald had with Lee Oswald while he -was in the custody of the Dallas Police prior to his death? - -Mr. MARTIN. I have no knowledge at all of that. - -Mr. REDLICH. You have never had any conversations with Robert Oswald -concerning his conversations with Lee Oswald. - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever talked to Mrs. Marguerite Oswald concerning -any conversations which she had with her son while he was in the -custody of the Dallas police? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Have you had any conversations at all with Mrs. Marguerite -Oswald concerning the facts surrounding the assassination of President -Kennedy? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't think any direct conversation, I mean between -she and I. I was present at times out there at the Inn when she was -talking to this person or that person. But I don't believe I have had -any direct conversation with her at all. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did Mrs. Marguerite Oswald ever discuss with you an -incident concerning a photograph which was supposed to have been shown -to her by agents of the FBI on November 23, 1963. - -Mr. MARTIN. No, I have heard that through news media but that is the -only place I heard it. - -Mr. REDLICH. You have no direct knowledge of that incident yourself. -Did Marina Oswald ever discuss that incident with you? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina Oswald ever discuss with you her -mother-in-law's allegations that Lee Oswald was acting as an agent of -the United States Government? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. She mentioned only one incident where the FBI came -to their house when they were in Oak Cliff, and they took him down -to the car, I believe he was about ready to sit down to dinner when -they arrived, and they took him down to the car and talked to him, and -Marina was upset because dinner was spoiling, and I think that is the -only reference she has made to anything like that. - -Mr. REDLICH. She has never discussed with you the specific claims of -Marguerite Oswald in that respect? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. In the course of your conversations with Marina Oswald or -in the course of the preparation of any stories or releases on Mrs. -Oswald's behalf have you ever discussed with Mrs. Oswald the events of -November 21 and the morning of November 22? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Could you relate those conversations to us? - -Mr. MARTIN. He came home Thursday night, which was unusual. - -Mr. REDLICH. Just so the record is clear, I hope you are relating to us -now what Marina Oswald has related to you and not what you have read in -any publication. - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. All right. - -Mr. MARTIN. And, let's see, this was sometime in December that she was -telling me this--no, I remember when it was, when she was moving from -the Inn to my home. - -Mr. REDLICH. By the Inn you mean---- - -Mr. MARTIN. The Inn of the Six Flags. She was in the back seat and Leon -Gopadze was in the front seat talking with her, and she told him that -he had come home Thursday night and that---- - -Mr. DULLES. In Russian? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. This was a conversation in Russian? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Lee translated it for me, Gopadze translated it. - -Mr. DULLES. Afterwards or as it took place. - -Mr. MARTIN. As it took place, well, it was immediately afterwards, and -she made a comment that he had left his wedding band on the dresser, I -think, and she got up the next morning she found his wedding band on -the dresser, which was strange. - -Now, that is the only thing that relates to that period that I have -heard her say. Now, I didn't actually hear her say that. - -Mr. REDLICH. You have had no other conversations with her with regard -to the period of November 21 and the morning of November 22? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Do you have any knowledge of the story which Marina Oswald -prepared in Russian and which she has sent to this Commission? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Could you state the extent of your knowledge? - -Mr. MARTIN. I knew it was written, and written by her, and that is -about the extent of it. - -Mr. REDLICH. Was it ever translated for you? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, we have part of it translated, a portion of it. - -Mr. REDLICH. Are there any parts of that story which you now believe to -be inaccurate? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't have the whole thing translated, but I think -everything that is translated, I have no reason to doubt. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did you assist Marina Oswald in the preparation for her -television appearance in January on CBS television? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Are there any portions of that interview which you now -believe to be inaccurate in any respect? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. We set a format for CBS to use, specific questions, -and Marina was not prompted as to the answers to give. Those were -impromptu. But we went over the ones with her off the camera, and asked -her the questions so that she would understand them, and then she -answered them, and the second time she did it on camera. - -Mr. REDLICH. To the best of your knowledge and recollection those -answers were accurate? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I can't remember them. But none of them struck me as -being---- - -Mr. REDLICH. Apart from the newspaper clippings which we went through -this morning and afternoon, are you familiar with any other narrative -prepared by or for Marina Oswald? - -Mr. MARTIN. Prepared by or for? - -Mr. REDLICH. Yes. - -Mr. MARTIN. You mean other than newspaper articles? - -Mr. REDLICH. Other than the newspaper articles which we discussed this -morning and this afternoon. - -Mr. MARTIN. Life magazine. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did you have anything to do with the recent story in Life -magazine? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, we had nothing on that other than the picture. Time -magazine, she was interviewed for Time magazine. - -Mr. REDLICH. When was that? - -Mr. MARTIN. Saturday--Friday--she was here in Washington. - -Mr. REDLICH. If I may refresh your recollection, she completed her -testimony before this Commission at approximately 5:30 on Thursday, -February 6. - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, I believe it was Friday. We held a press conference -on Friday afternoon, and I think it was Friday night then. - -Mr. REDLICH. It would be sometime after the completion of her testimony -is that correct? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Were you with her during the course of that interview? - -Mr. MARTIN. It must have been Thursday night. It was Thursday night -because Secret Service was still with her. - -Mr. REDLICH. You believe this interview took place on Thursday night? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. That would be February 6? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Were you with her during the course of this interview? - -Mr. MARTIN. Part of the time. I left John Thorne and Marina and the -Time reporter at the table. June was restless, and I was walking her -around the restaurant. - -Mr. REDLICH. Have you read the interview? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Are there any portions of it which you now believe to be -inaccurate, to the best of your recollection? - -Mr. MARTIN. I don't think so. I would have to re-read it to make it -definite, make a definite statement on it. - -Mr. REDLICH. On the basis of conversations which you had during the -course of the testimony of Marina Oswald before this Commission and on -the basis of conversations which you have had subsequent to that time, -do you have any opinion concerning the truthfulness of the testimony -which she presented before this Commission? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. I think primarily she is truthful, and I think that -under oath she would tell the truth. - -Mr. REDLICH. Are you still Mrs. Oswald's business representative? - -Mr. MARTIN. According to the contract, yes. According to my contract -with her. - -Mr. REDLICH. Have you received any communication from her which raises -questions as to whether you are still her business representative? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -The CHAIRMAN. Are we really concerned with that? - -Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chairman, I intend to ask the witness why he was -discharged in terms of whether it had anything to do with any business -negotiations or anything to do with the testimony of Mrs. Oswald before -this Commission. - -The CHAIRMAN. You can ask him if it has anything to do with her -testimony. We are not interested in her business affairs. - -Mr. REDLICH. I merely wanted to establish the fact of---- - -The CHAIRMAN. This thing can go on interminably with all this minutia -and things that don't bear on what we are here to find out, whatever -his business relations are with Mrs. Oswald, it seems to me is his -business and not ours. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did Mrs. Oswald's attempt to terminate the relationship -with you relate in any way to her testimony before this Commission? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. There was no reason given. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did it relate in any way, in your opinion, to any -information which you may have given to anyone else with regard to -your knowledge of the facts concerning the assassination of President -Kennedy. - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Do you know Jack Ruby? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Would you tell us about your association with him? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, it is a very minor association. I had been working in -the Statler Hotel in Dallas as assistant manager for maybe six months -before I met him, and met him through some of the other people in the -hotel. - -Mr. DULLES. What year was this? - -Mr. MARTIN. About 1955. - -Mr. DULLES. I just want to get the general area. - -Mr. MARTIN. 1955 or 1956. And as a club manager, I was club manager -in Dallas also, and didn't associate with him at all, even on a -bilateral communication through the clubs. But it was just a nodding -acquaintance, you might say. I knew him by his first name. He knew me -by my first name and we spoke when we saw each other and I think I have -been in his place twice. - -Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall the approximate dates of those visits? - -Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, once in 1962. I had some gentlemen from New -Orleans with me. They were visiting Dallas on business at the Inn of -the Six Flags, and they wanted to see the Carousel. - -Mr. DULLES. That is what you mean by his place? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. So I called Jack Ruby and asked if it would be all -right if I brought them down. We stayed approximately an hour and a -half. - -The other time was during the daytime, let's see, as it was then, I -had--I was walking in that area and just stopped in to say hello. The -club was closed at that time, not closed for business but it was before -opening hours. - -Mr. REDLICH. Those are the only times you have been in Jack Ruby's -business establishment? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Do you consider yourself a friend of his? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. An acquaintance. - -Mr. REDLICH. Have you gone out socially? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. He came out to the Inn one time with some little -gimmick. It is called a Detwist Board. It is quite a piece of plywood -about like this with a round plate on the bottom of it, seated in ball -bearings and you are supposed to stand on this thing to twist, and came -out to ask me to see who to ask at the park to merchandise it, the Six -Flags over Texas Amusement Park, and I told him. Now, whether he went -over there or not, I don't know. - -Mr. REDLICH. I understand that you have had a conversation with an aid -of General Walker concerning the General Walker incident. - -Would you tell the Commission about that? - -Mr. MARTIN. They contacted us---- - -Mr. REDLICH. Who is "they"? - -Mr. MARTIN. General Walker's aide, Mr. Moore or Morse, a tall thin -gentleman, about 55 or 60, and wanted actually an interview with Marina -which we didn't think was necessary. - -They came out to John Thorne's office and we sat and talked. They were -of the opinion--what they were trying to do was find out who else was -involved--this was right after the announcement was made in the paper -about Lee Oswald shooting at Walker. They were trying to find out who -else was involved because General Walker is still in fear of his life. - -Mr. DULLES. This was some time before the 22d. - -Mr. MARTIN. No, it was after. - -Mr. DULLES. After November 22? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. This was after the announcement was made in the -paper that---- - -Mr. DULLES. Oh, yes. - -Mr. MARTIN. That Lee Oswald had attacked him. - -Mr. DULLES. The actual attack was in April. This was after the -newspaper announcement. - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -The CHAIRMAN. After the newspaper announcements that Lee had tried to -kill him which was after the assassination? - -Mr. MARTIN. That is correct. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. - -Mr. MARTIN. And they just wanted verification actually that or to try -to get verification as to how many people were involved, and we told -them that there was just one person involved. - -Mr. REDLICH. At the time did you ask Marina about this? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. And this is what she told you? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. The persons involved in the Walker incident? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. She said that Lee did it alone without any help. There -was no one with him. - -Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I have at this time no further questions other -than those which may be suggested by a perusal of the records which you -have forwarded to this Commission. - -As we indicated in the brief recess earlier, Mr. Dulles is able to be -here at 9 o'clock this evening, and I would envisage then a very brief -session at which time your testimony would be completed. - -Mr. MARTIN. All right. - -Mr. REDLICH. Are there any questions that anyone would like to ask of -Mr. Martin at this time? - -The CHAIRMAN. Would you like to ask your client any questions? - -Mr. LEECH. No. I am not going to make that mistake. - -(Laughter.) - -The CHAIRMAN. All right. - -Mr. DULLES. I have no questions. I will reserve them for tonight. I -don't think I have any further questions. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rhyne, do you have any questions you would like to -ask. Mr. Rankin, are you through for the day? - -Mr. RANKIN. Until 9 o'clock. - -The CHAIRMAN. Well then, gentlemen, we will adjourn until 9 o'clock. - -(Whereupon, at 5:15 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -Evening Session - -TESTIMONY OF JAMES HERBERT MARTIN RESUMED - - -The President's Commission reconvened at 9:20 p.m. - -Mr. DULLES. The Committee will come to order. - -Will you continue with the testimony? - -Mr. REDLICH. Thank you, Mr. Dulles. - -Mr. Martin, at our last session I asked you whether you knew Jack Ruby, -and you replied that you did. You indicated the brief contact that you -have had with him and the two times, I believe, that you have been to -his business establishment? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Apart from your own personal contact with Jack Ruby, do -you have any other information about him and his activities which you -would like to present before this Commission? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, nothing that I definitely know about him. It is just he -is a city character. He is very friendly to everyone. - -Mr. REDLICH. Please understand I am not asking you for rumors or that -type of thing. - -Mr. MARTIN. No, I know. Well, just what I know of him, he seems very -friendly to everyone, and he is always around. You are liable to see -him anywhere. - -Mr. REDLICH. Has he ever been to the motel that you have? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, I mentioned that. - -Mr. REDLICH. Oh, yes. - -Mr. MARTIN. He brought that twist board out there one time. - -Mr. REDLICH. Never been there as a guest? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. I hand you a copy of an invoice for a Revere recorder and -a 1,200-foot reel of recording tape, and ask you if you have ever seen -this? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. That is a tape recorder that I rented and recorded -the---- - -Mr. REDLICH. I will ask you about it shortly. I would just like to know -if you are familiar with it. - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chairman, I am marking this as Commission Exhibit No. -332, and ask that it be admitted in evidence. - -Mr. DULLES. Any objection? - -Mr. LEECH. No, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. It may be admitted. - -(The tape recorder and tape invoice referred to were marked -Commission's Exhibit No. 332 for identification and received in -evidence.) - -Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I hand you Commission Exhibit No. 332, and -ask you to tell the Commission the conditions under which this invoice -arose? - -Mr. MARTIN. We had Marina's manuscript interpreted by Ilya Mamantov, -and this was part of it. He was only able to interpret about half of it. - -Mr. REDLICH. He interpreted it and put it on tape? - -Mr. MARTIN. And we recorded that on tape as he interpreted it. - -Mr. DULLES. How do you mean interpreted? - -Mr. MARTIN. He read it in English? - -Mr. DULLES. Oh, I see, translated it. - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. From Russian into English? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. When I asked you this afternoon about your knowledge as to -the accuracy of that story, I take it your reply was based upon this -translation? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. And this only encompasses about half of the entire story, -is that right? - -Mr. MARTIN. It is more than half, it is about 15 pages, I guess. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did she consult with you at all in the preparation of that -story? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. And there is nothing on this tape other than the English -translation of that Russian story? - -Mr. MARTIN. That is true. - -Mr. DULLES. Do we have that translation as well as the copy of the -original? - -Mr. REDLICH. Yes, Mr. Chairman, we have the original in Russian and -then it was translated by Mr. Gopadze, of the Secret Service. - -Mr. MARTIN. Actually our translation is very poor. He was not able to -translate properly into English a lot of the phrases. - -Mr. DULLES. Who is "he," Illa? Isn't that Ilya, by the way? - -Mr. MARTIN. I am not sure. - -Mr. DULLES. That is generally the Russian, I don't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is right. - -Mr. MARTIN. It might be. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. - -Mr. MARTIN. But he is professor at SMU. He has a list of titles that -long. He is very well thought of. I think he works for Sun Oil Company, -and is a well-respected individual. His wife and his mother, I believe, -teach Russian also. I think his mother taught Mrs. Paine a good deal of -her Russian. - -Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I would like to show you Commission Exhibit -No. 325 which was introduced earlier today. Mr. Leech, I believe you -have a photostat of this. If you could hand it to me during the course -of this questioning. I would appreciate it. - -Mr. LEECH. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Thank you. - -Could you tell the Commission what this document purports to state, and -then I will ask you about individual items. - -Mr. MARTIN. These are contracts that we have made both in writing and -verbally for Marina Oswald's right, her story rights. - -Mr. REDLICH. And the first item appearing on Commission Exhibit No. 325 -is a contract with Texitalia Films. - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Would you describe the terms and conditions of that -contract? - -Mr. MARTIN. Texitalia Films is planning a 60-minute technicolor -documentary to start. They will pay $75,000 for World-Wide movie and -the TV rights. - -Mr. DULLES. Excuse me, is this a documentary of Marina's life? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Any movie or television appearances Marina would be -paid $7,500 plus expenses for each appearance. Then for each personal -appearance, for instance, the film opens in St. Louis on such and such -a date and they would like for her to be there to make a personal -appearance for the showing, the opening of the film, she would receive -$1,500 plus expenses for each public appearance of that nature. - -Mr. REDLICH. And this contract according to this exhibit was signed on -February 11, 1964? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. LEECH. By her? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, by me acting for her. - -Mr. REDLICH. By you acting on behalf of Mrs. Oswald? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, in accordance with my contract with her. - -Mr. REDLICH. The second item appearing here is a contract with Life -magazine. Would you tell the Commission about that? - -Mr. MARTIN. Life magazine purchased the rights, North American rights -on a photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald with a rifle and pistol, primarily -for their use on a cover issue. - -Mr. DULLES. That is what appeared on the recent cover issue, I guess, -it was 2 weeks ago. - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. - -Now, that $5,000 has been paid. We have the $5,000 in an escrow account. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did you actually have in your possession the photograph, a -copy of which appeared on the cover of Life magazine? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us how this contract was consummated, in -view of the fact that Life magazine apparently printed on its cover a -photograph which you never possessed? - -Mr. MARTIN. They knew the photographs belonged to Marina. They have a -common law copyright, and the only way they could legally use the film -is to purchase the rights from Marina. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did Life magazine indicate to you where they obtained the -photograph? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Have you had conversations with other publications -concerning that photograph? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I made the contact with the London Daily Mirror -for the purchase of the British Commonwealth rights on that same -photograph, and they guaranteed $2,200 plus 50-50 split on what they -sold in the Commonwealth. It was restricted to the Commonwealth only. - -However, the London Daily Mail came out with the photograph prior to -the Mirror, and I was informed by Mr. Weggand of the London Daily -Express that the Detroit Free Press had sold this photograph to the -London Daily Mail for $500. - -Mr. REDLICH. Do you have any idea how the Detroit Free Press obtained -this photograph? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. I talked to Ken Murray, who I was informed was the -attorney for the Detroit Free Press. - -Mr. REDLICH. Where did you talk to him? - -Mr. MARTIN. At his home in Detroit. - -Mr. REDLICH. By phone? - -Mr. MARTIN. By telephone. And he stated that the photograph was public -property, and not covered under common law copyright. I asked him where -he got the photo, and he said he got it at the same place as Life did, -through a leak in the Commission. I talked to Life magazine attorney--I -can't remember his name. It is a very odd name. It begins with an "S". -Now, Murray said that Life had informed him that they had gotten it -from a leak through the Commission, and I contacted Life and he denied -saying anything of the sort to Murray. - -However, Murray insisted that that is where he got that and he figured -it was public domain. - -Mr. REDLICH. At the start of today's testimony when you mentioned -the possibility of a leak with regard to this photograph, something -that you said prior to the actual start of hearings, Mr. Rankin and I -commented on that assertion. - -Would you tell the Commission what we said? - -Mr. MARTIN. That there was definitely not a leak in the Commission, and -that you would certainly find out what Murray was talking about. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did you talk to an editor of the Detroit Free Press with -regard to this photograph? - -Mr. MARTIN. I called at night. It was at night, and I asked for the -news editor. He was not in, so I talked to a reporter, and he couldn't -say anything about it. He referred me to Ken Murray and gave me his -home telephone number. - -Mr. REDLICH. The next item on Commission Exhibit No. 325 has reference -to Stern Magazine. - -Would you tell the Commission about that, please? - -Mr. MARTIN. Stern Magazine we have been working with since the middle -of December. They have been quite patient actually. For $12,500 they -wanted Marina's memoirs and photographs, available photographs for use -in Germany and Italy only. They wanted exclusive use in those two -countries. Then they would endeavor to sell these same memoirs and -pictures to other European countries, limiting it only to European -countries, and take a 30 percent commission on any sales that they -made, the remaining 70 percent going to Marina. - -Mr. REDLICH. Has this contract been signed? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Do you know when it was signed? Can you approximate the -date? - -Mr. MARTIN. I confirmed it by wire to them. It is in the exhibits. - -Mr. REDLICH. We have not introduced---- - -Mr. MARTIN. You haven't come to that yet. - -Mr. REDLICH. We do not intend to introduce the specific documents into -the record, just this summary. - -Mr. LEECH. Give him an approximate date. - -Mr. REDLICH. You say it was confirmed by telegram. - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, it was confirmed by telegram to Spiegelberg. - -Mr. LEECH. When? - -Mr. MARTIN. In New York. December 16 at 2:45 p.m. - -Mr. REDLICH. The next item on Commission Exhibit No. 325 also refers to -Stern Magazine, an item of $2,650. - -Could you comment on that? - -Mr. MARTIN. This was a recent development wherein since they could not -send an author in to talk to Marina, they purchased seven photographs -for a total of $2,650, to take the memoirs later. - -However, they will not hold off the memoirs forever. - -Mr. REDLICH. These seven photographs are photographs of what? - -Mr. MARTIN. Of Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald together and separate. - -Mr. REDLICH. These were photographs which were not turned over to the -Dallas police? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. They were photographs that we were given prints of by -the FBI. The FBI sent prints of these photographs to us. - -Mr. REDLICH. Am I correct in assuming that all of the photographs which -were in the possession of Marina Oswald and Lee Harvey Oswald, either -in his apartment or in the Paine's apartment, were turned over to the -Dallas police? - -Is that right? - -Mr. MARTIN. As far as I know. - -Mr. REDLICH. To the best of your knowledge? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. And that any photographs which you have and which have -been the basis of any contract are copies which were made available to -you by some law enforcement authority? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Now, there was a check, there was a $250 cash down -payment made on this $2,650. Then a check for $2,400; the check was -stopped, payment on the check was stopped because of a letter written -by William McKenzie saying that I had no authority to sign any -contracts whatsoever for Marina, and that if they did use anything that -I had sold them, litigation would follow immediately. So consequently -they stopped payment on the check. I still have the check. It is still -attached to the letter that was sent with it. - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask who is that check made out to? - -Mr. MARTIN. Made out to me. - -Mr. DULLES. To you as agent? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. Or to you just in your name? - -Mr. MARTIN. I think it is just made out to me. - -Mr. DULLES. I don't know if it is important. - -Mr. LEECH. You go ahead and I'll find it. - -Mr. MARTIN. Under the contract all checks were supposed to be made -payable to me. Then I would deduct my fee and forward the balance to -Marina. - -Mr. REDLICH. The next item on Commission Exhibit No. 325 refers to -Meredith Press. - -Mr. MARTIN. The Meredith Press is a book publisher with their main -office in Des Moines, Iowa. I had talked with Mr. Ted Purdy at great -length and on numerous occasions by phone. We had negotiated world -book rights for Marina Oswald's story. For this Meredith Press would -pay a $25,000 advance to her. Then on the first printing would be a 10 -percent commission of the retail price of the book. - -On the second printing would be 12-1/2 percent commission, and on the -third and succeeding printings it would be 15 percent commission. - -Now, of course, the commissions were to be deducted from the advance. - -Mr. REDLICH. And this was to be her life story? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Had you discussed with Marina at all the contents of this -book? Had you started making any preparations for writing? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. I am not a writer, and wouldn't know the first thing -to do about a book. But we had negotiated with one writer, Isaac Don -Levine, who Meredith Press felt would be the best writer available for -this type of book because of the Russian attachment. - -Mr. REDLICH. When you told us this morning of your initial concern over -the Nixon shooting incident, did it relate to these various agreements -that you have been working on concerning the sale of Marina Oswald's -story? - -Mr. MARTIN. Did it relate to them? - -Mr. REDLICH. Yes. - -Mr. MARTIN. How do you mean? - -Mr. REDLICH. Were you concerned about the publicity, the effect of the -publicity of the Nixon incident on these various agreements which you -were negotiating at the time? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. As a matter of fact, it would enhance the price of it. - -For instance, the Post magazine, the Saturday Evening Post, said that -they would like to buy American serial rights if there was something in -Marina's story that the Commission did not know. - -Mr. REDLICH. When did they tell you this? - -Mr. MARTIN. Around the first of the year I guess. - -Mr. REDLICH. Around the first of the year. Did Marina know about this? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. This is the Saturday Evening Post you are talking about? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I talked to a Mr. Black. - -Mr. REDLICH. And the Saturday Evening Post said to you that they would -buy the serial rights provided there was some information which would -not be known to the Commission? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I told them there was no realm that would apply, and -we closed negotiations. - -Mr. REDLICH. And you say you didn't relate this fact at all to Marina -Oswald? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. These negotiations with the Post. - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Was there in fact to the best of your knowledge material -which she did not in fact relate to this Commission? - -Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge other than the Nixon affair. - -Mr. REDLICH. And were you aware at the time she completed her testimony -here that she had not related this information to the Commission? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Was there any connection between her failure to tell the -Commission of the Nixon incident and the negotiations, the temporary -negotiations that you had had with the Saturday Evening Post? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, none whatsoever. That was closed off at least 30 days -before she testified. - -Mr. REDLICH. Was there any attempt on your part or anyone acting on -Marina Oswald's part that you know of to negotiate the sale of the -information concerning the Nixon shooting incident? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, not to my knowledge. - -Mr. REDLICH. When Marina--did Marina ever give you an explanation for -why she did not tell the Commission about the Nixon incident? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. I have never talked to her about that other than the -first time that she told me about it. I asked John Thorne if she had -mentioned it. I didn't discuss it with her. - -Mr. REDLICH. And since Marina Oswald's return from Washington after -having testified here, you say you have never discussed the Nixon -incident with Marina Oswald in any way? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. I probably would have had there been sufficient time. -Of course, she left my home the following day after she got back from -Washington. - -Mr. REDLICH. When you say you probably would have, in what way? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, since she didn't mention it to the Commission, I feel -the Commission should know about it. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you know at this time she had not mentioned it to the -Commission? - -Mr. MARTIN. I asked John Thorne. - -Mr. DULLES. Oh, you asked John Thorne? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. What did John Thorne say? - -Mr. MARTIN. Said she had not mentioned it. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did you ask John Thorne why she had not mentioned it? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did John Thorne offer any information as to why she had -not mentioned it? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Do you know whether John Thorne had urged her to mention -it? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. John Thorne was aware of the Nixon incident prior to -Marina Oswald's appearance before this Commission, was he not? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Because you had apparently told him about that shortly -after you learned about it in January. - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did you discuss the Nixon incident with Robert Oswald -after Marina Oswald's appearance before this Commission in February? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. You had not? - -Mr. MARTIN. I don't know if I discussed it with him prior to the -Commission's testimony or not. I may or I may not have. I don't know. I -don't know whether I mentioned it to him or not. - -Mr. REDLICH. Coming back to Commission Exhibit No. 325, the next item -under London Daily Mirror, am I correct in assuming that this is, that -this item refers to the rifle photo which you discussed earlier in your -testimony tonight? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, that is right. - -Mr. REDLICH. Do you have anything to add with regard to that rifle -photo that you have not already told us? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did you discuss with Marina Oswald at any time this rifle -photo and the circumstances under which it was taken. - -Mr. MARTIN. I asked her at one time why he wanted a photograph taken of -that type, and she said she didn't know. He just wanted pictures taken -that way. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did she tell you when this photograph was taken in -relationship to any other incidents such as the General Walker incident -or the Richard Nixon incident? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did you know where the photograph was taken? - -Mr. MARTIN. I don't know, I don't even know if it was in Oak Cliff or -not. I have an idea that it was in Oak Cliff but I don't know whether I -know that or whether I have read it. - -Mr. REDLICH. When you say Oak Cliff, some of us don't live in Dallas. - -Mr. MARTIN. It is a suburb of Dallas, a section of Dallas. - -Mr. REDLICH. Are you referring to the area where the Neely Street house -was located? - -To refresh your recollection, Mr. Martin, the Oswalds lived in two -places in Dallas. One was on Elsbeth Street and the other on Neely. Are -they both in Oak Cliff? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, Elsbeth Street is right around the corner from Neely -Street, I believe they lived in an apartment on Elsbeth. - -It was a group of apartments in one building, and on Neely Street, I -think, that was similar to a duplex. - -Mr. REDLICH. And you are not certain as to where this photograph which -was the subject of these negotiations was taken? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, except that the Elsbeth address, I believe, was a brick -residence, I mean a brick apartment, it is a dark building, and the -Neely Street address is a white building. - -I believe the photo shows a white building. - -Mr. REDLICH. On the basis of that you would conclude the photograph was -taken at which address? - -Mr. MARTIN. At the Neely Street address. - -Mr. REDLICH. At the Neely Street address. When you were negotiating -with various publications for this photograph, didn't anyone ask you -when and where it was taken? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, I told them that it was while they were living in Oak -Cliff. I didn't say where or when. - -Mr. REDLICH. No one asked you. - -Mr. MARTIN. And they apparently weren't concerned with the where or -when. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did they ask you anything about the publication which Lee -Oswald had in his hand? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, and I told them that it was either the Militant or the -Worker. I was not sure which one. I am not even sure whether either one. - -Mr. REDLICH. Your copy of the photograph did not indicate clearly which -one it was? - -Mr. MARTIN. Correct. - -Mr. REDLICH. Do you now know which one it was? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. DULLES. Are you sure it is one of the two? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, I am not. I assume that it would be one of the two. - -Mr. REDLICH. For the record it is the Militant. - -Mr. DULLES. It is? - -Mr. REDLICH. Is there anything about the circumstances of this -photograph, including the rifle, the pistol, the time, the place, -anything concerning this photograph that you have not told this -Commission about which you have knowledge? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. The last item on Commission Exhibit No. 325 is This Week -magazine, $1,000. Could you tell us about that. At the conclusion of -this list I will ask if there is anything else. We are now at This Week -magazine. - -Mr. MARTIN. When Marina was here in Washington, she had the press -conference, and at the end of the press conference she mentioned, she -made a statement "Now I go to church." On the way to the CBS studios we -passed a Russian Orthodox Church, and she remarked about it, that she -would like to come back and go inside, see what it looked like. Someone -in This Week magazine caught that statement, and wanted to write a -short article on Marina going to church, and that is what that is. - -Mr. REDLICH. What happened? Could you tell us how this article got -written? - -Mr. MARTIN. It hasn't been written. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did the reporter accompany Mrs. Oswald to church? - -Mr. MARTIN. Oh, no. Actually when the television interview was over, -we came back and went to the church, but the church was locked and -we didn't get in at all. Now this contact was made after we left -Washington. This Week magazine contacted us after, not while we were -still here. - -Mr. REDLICH. And what was the subject matter of this article -specifically supposed to be? - -Mr. MARTIN. The title of it was supposed to be "I go to church," and it -would be an article written on Marina going to church. - -Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, the total figure on the bottom of Commission -Exhibit No. 325 is $132,350. This presumably does not include any -future royalties, is that correct? - -Mr. MARTIN. That is correct. - -Mr. REDLICH. Have you made an estimate as to the total earnings which -would accrue as a result of these contractual arrangements? - -Mr. MARTIN. It should be approximately $300,000 at a maximum, depending -on what American serial rights and British Commonwealth serial rights, -Asiatic serial rights would bring. - -Mr. REDLICH. You say the maximum of $300,000? - -Mr. MARTIN. I think so. - -Mr. LEECH. Of those contracts? - -Mr. REDLICH. That is what I am asking about are these. - -Mr. MARTIN. Of these contracts, yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us about any other contractual arrangements -that you have made or are negotiating on behalf of Marina Oswald? - -Mr. MARTIN. There are no others. I will have to refer to things. -We had an offer from Australia and also from New Zealand as far as -this photograph is concerned. However, it was thrown to the wind by -the Detroit Free Press, so they got it from Detroit Free Press, we -have been offered--we have not received an offer. The Australian -newspaper---- - -Mr. DULLES. Do you need these details do you think? - -Mr. REDLICH. I want to get the total figure, Mr. Chairman. - -Mr. MARTIN. Associated Newspapers Limited of Australia would like to -have Australian rights to a book that Marina would write, and also -the London Evening Standard would like to have the British rights, of -course, to the picture of Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, Mr. Thorne has indicated to this Commission -that he estimated that Marina's earnings would approach approximately -$500,000. Would you comment on that estimate? - -Mr. MARTIN. I think it might be a little high. Of course, if you take -into consideration she has $68,000, close to $70,000 in contributions -alone, then the advances on this Exhibit No. 325, that is $200,000 -right there. I think $500,000 might be just a little bit high. - -Mr. REDLICH. The final document I would like to show you is a photostat -of a letter which you presented to the Commission today, purporting to -be a letter written in Russian together with an English translation. It -starts, the English translation starts with the words "As the widow of -Lee Oswald." I show you Commission Exhibit No. 333 and ask you if this -is a photostat of the letter which you submitted to the Commission this -morning. - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, apparently so. - -Mr. DULLES. Who is that letter to? - -Mr. REDLICH. We don't know yet. - -Mr. DULLES. You don't know yet? - -Mr. REDLICH. I will develop that in the questioning. I mark this -Commission Exhibit No. 333, being a Russian letter and what purports to -be its English translation and ask that it be admitted in evidence. - -Mr. DULLES. Can you identify that any further than just a Russian -letter? - -Mr. REDLICH. On the top appears a date, and the day of the month is the -20th. I am unable to tell what month it is. - -Mr. MARTIN. But the year is 1964, and the words "Dallas, Texas" then -appear under the date. - -Mr. DULLES. That helps identify it. - -Mr. REDLICH. I ask that it be admitted in evidence. - -Mr. DULLES. Any objection? - -Mr. LEECH. No objection. - -Mr. DULLES. It is admitted. - -(The photostats of a Russian letter with an English translation were -marked Commission Exhibit No. 333 for identification and received in -evidence.) - -Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, with your permission I would just summarize -the contents of this letter, and if I have summarized it inaccurately, -just say so. This letter requests that the death penalty not be applied -to Jack Ruby, the person who has been charged with the murder of Lee -Harvey Oswald. Is that inaccurate? - -Mr. MARTIN. No; that is correct. - -Mr. REDLICH. That is a correct summary of the contents of the letter? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall to whom that letter was written? - -Mr. MARTIN. She originally wrote the letter to Melvin Belli. - -Mr. REDLICH. By "she" you mean Marina Oswald? - -Mr. MARTIN. Marina. I advised her against---- - -Mr. REDLICH. Melvin Belli? - -Mr. MARTIN. Is the attorney for Jack Ruby. I advised her against -such an action, because of the possibility of the letter itself in -translating from Russian to English being misinterpreted and used in a -manner that might be derogatory to Marina Oswald. I suggested that she -send this letter to Henry Wade who would be the prosecutor in the case. -Now whether she changed the salutation on the letter I don't know. -I can't read Russian. And the salutation was not translated in the -translation. The translation was made by Katya Ford. - -Mr. REDLICH. To the best of your knowledge has this letter ever been -sent to anyone? - -Mr. MARTIN. No sir, it hasn't. - -Mr. DULLES. You say it has not been? - -Mr. MARTIN. It has not been. - -Mr. DULLES. That is your belief or you have knowledge that it has not -been? - -Mr. MARTIN. I have the original. Now if a letter has been sent, it -would be a different letter. - -Mr. REDLICH. On the basis of your knowledge of Marina Oswald's -handwriting, would you tell the Commission whether you believe that -this letter is in her handwriting? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, it is. I also observed her writing the letter. - -Mr. REDLICH. Are you aware of the fact that Marina Oswald discussed -this letter when she appeared before this Commission? - -Mr. MARTIN. I believe you mentioned it sometime today. - -Mr. REDLICH. Were you aware of it prior to your coming here? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Do you know why it has not been sent? - -Mr. MARTIN. She decided that it was best not to be sent unless she -actually thought that Ruby was going to get the death penalty. Actually -a letter like that should go to the Governor of the State. - -Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, do you have any additional information -concerning the assassination of President Kennedy, Marina Oswald, or -the assassination of her husband Lee Harvey Oswald which you would like -to present before this Commission at this time? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't think so. Nothing. - -Mr. REDLICH. If it would be helpful for the work of this Commission for -you to return to Washington and appear again before this Commission, -would you be willing to do so? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions of this witness, -unless Mr. Rankin does or you do. - -Mr. DULLES. I would just like to ask a question about this letter I am -just glancing over. Where did this letter paper come from? Is that some -personal paper with a tree on it? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I bought that. - -Mr. DULLES. You bought it for her? - -Mr. MARTIN. At a drug store, yes, sir, at a drug store in Arlington. - -Mr. DULLES. Is this another draft or is this just a copy? - -Mr. MARTIN. This is the original of the copy. - -Mr. REDLICH. We have photographed what is now Commission Exhibit No. -333 and we are keeping the photostat. Mr. Martin, you will recall that -at the start of today's proceedings Chief Justice Warren read into the -record a copy of the letter which you received requesting certain -notes, records, documents in connection with today's hearing. Have -you made available to the Commission all of the material which was -requested in that letter? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I went through everything I had at home, and -could find nothing else. - -Mr. REDLICH. If you should find anything else which you inadvertently -failed to bring before this Commission, will you mail it to us for -examination and we will return it to you. - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; there is a Worker that I have. - -Mr. REDLICH. You mean by Worker the Daily Worker? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I think they dropped the "Daily." - -Mr. DULLES. They are no longer daily. - -Mr. MARTIN. It is called the Worker now. It has quite a lengthy article -about Marina in it, and I will send that to you. - -Mr. REDLICH. And you will send anything that you may come across which -you may have inadvertently failed to produce before this Commission? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. REDLICH. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. - -Mr. DULLES. There were some questions that Senator Cooper had -suggested. I don't know, have you looked those over? Have they been -covered? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Those have been covered. - -Mr. DULLES. All been covered? - -Mr. REDLICH. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. Did Marina ever express to you her opinion as to the guilt -or innocence of her husband in connection with the assassination of the -President? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. What did she say? - -Mr. MARTIN. She believes he was guilty. She believes he did it, and -the first time she said it I questioned her as to why she thought he -did it, and she said she just felt it. It was a woman's intuition. She -didn't know the word intuition at that time. I had to look it up in the -Russian-English Dictionary. - -Mr. DULLES. Did she indicate any view as to whether he did it alone or -had an accomplice or accomplices? - -Mr. MARTIN. She remarked about the Walker incident, that that was -definitely done alone, and that he always was alone. He never did -anything with anyone else. I don't recall that she mentioned that -specifically in the case of the assassination of the President. But she -had made that remark before or during the interim about Walker. - -Mr. DULLES. Did she ever at any time express to you any interest in -returning to the Soviet Union or her desire to stay in the United -States? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, she has always said that she wanted to stay in the -United States. One time she said that she thought she would go back to -Russia, and I asked her why and she said, well, she was just joking. - -Mr. DULLES. Did she ever refer to you any letters she wrote to the -Soviet Embassy with regard to a desire to return? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. There was only one incident that she told me about was -a letter to a friend in Russia. - -Mr. DULLES. You mentioned that I think. - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. The one that she didn't put enough stamps on, enough -postage on. - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, it came back "insufficient postage." - -Mr. DULLES. Did she ever mention to you any names of any friends or -associates of her husband that had not been discussed here at one time -or another in this testimony, including the list of names that was read -out to you? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you know any other friends that Marina has other than -those that have been discussed in this testimony? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. I was trying to think a while ago about that, and I -can't think of anyone else. - -Mr. DULLES. That is all I have. - -Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Leech, would you like to ask Mr. Martin any questions -at this time? - -Mr. LEECH. Not a word. - -Mr. DULLES. Mr. Rhyne? Mr. Rankin, have you any further questions? - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I merely wish to thank him for appearing -voluntarily. - -Mr. DULLES. I do thank you for coming and responding so fully to our -questions. - -Mr. MARTIN. Anything I can do. - -Mr. DULLES. And if anything occurs to you or to your counsel as -sometimes happens later, we will be very glad if you or your counsel -will bring it to our attention. - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I certainly will. - -Mr. REDLICH. May I before we adjourn ask another question? - -Mr. DULLES. Certainly. - -Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever discussed with Mrs. Marguerite Oswald the -question of the guilt or innocence of Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. The only time I was in contact with Marguerite Oswald -was at the Inn of the Six Flags in Arlington, Tex., and I don't believe -I really discussed anything with her. I was more on the sidelines and -didn't enter into any discussions with her at all. - -Mr. REDLICH. And have you discussed with Robert Oswald the question of -the guilt or innocence of Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Let's see, on one occasion the article by Mark -Lane, I think it was in the National Observer, was printed in the -National Observer, and I called Robert's attention to that. I believe -he cited 15 points where he believed that Lee Oswald was innocent, -and I remarked to Robert that in nearly 100 percent of those points -they were just completely out of line. The brief I believe was taken -from newspaper accounts, from various newspaper accounts of the -assassination, and a number of them contradicted each other. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did Robert Oswald comment on this? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. For the record I believe the publication you are referring -to is the National Guardian. - -Mr. MARTIN. The National Guardian, yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Is that your recollection now? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, National Guardian. - -Mr. REDLICH. And Robert Oswald had no comment on this? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. We have no further questions. - -Mr. DULLES. The Commission will stand adjourned, subject to call. - -(Whereupon, at 10:20 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -_Wednesday, March 4, 1964_ - -TESTIMONY OF MARK LANE - -The President's Commission met at 2:30 p.m., on March 4, 1964, at 200 -Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. - -Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman -Cooper and Representative Gerald R. Ford, members. - -Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Norman Redlich, -assistant counsel; Charles Murray and Charles Rhyne, assistants to -Walter E. Craig. - - -The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. - -The Commission has been informed that Mr. Lane has collected numerous -materials relevant to the Commission's work. - -The Commission proposes to question Mr. Lane on all matters of which -he has knowledge concerning the assassination of President Kennedy and -the subsequent killing of Lee Harvey Oswald, and to request of Mr. Lane -that he make available to the Commission any documentary material in -his possession which can assist the Commission in its work. - -In accordance with the rules of this Commission, Mr. Lane has been -furnished with a copy of this statement. - -Mr. Lane, would please rise and be sworn? Do you solemnly swear to tell -the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. LANE. I do. - -The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please. - -Mr. Rankin, would you proceed with the examination, please? - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Lane, will you state your name? - -Mr. LANE. My name is Mark Lane. - -Mr. RANKIN. Where do you live? - -Mr. LANE. 164 West 79th Street, New York City, New York State. - -Mr. RANKIN. Are you a practicing lawyer? - -Mr. LANE. Yes; I am. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you state your age, please? - -Mr. LANE. I am 37 years old. - -Mr. RANKIN. How long have you been practicing law? - -Mr. LANE. Thirteen years. - -Mr. RANKIN. You have qualified in the State of New York? - -Mr. LANE. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Are you qualified in any other Jurisdiction? - -Mr. LANE. Just in the Federal court. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you have some information concerning the matters being -investigated by the Commission that you would like to present to the -Commission? - -Mr. LANE. Yes; I do. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you proceed to do so? - -Mr. LANE. Yes. - -I wonder if I might ask at the outset if I will be able to secure a -copy of the transcript of my testimony tomorrow, or is that going to be -rushing things? - -The CHAIRMAN. You will be able to obtain it. I don't know whether we -can promise it to you tomorrow morning or not. But we will do it just -as quickly as it can be transcribed by the reporter. - -Mr. LANE. Thank you, sir. - -At the outset, I would like to request that this portion of the -hearing, in any event, be opened to the public. I think that there are -matters here of grave concern to all the people of our country, and -that it would, therefore, be fruitful and constructive for the sessions -to be conducted in a public fashion, open to the public and to the -press. - -Accordingly, I request that this session at least involving my -testimony be so opened to the public. - -The CHAIRMAN. You would have a right, as any witness would have, to -request that, Mr. Lane. We will conduct this in an open hearing. We -will adjourn at this time to the auditorium downstairs, and we will -conduct the hearing there. It will be open to the public. I saw a good -many members of the press around, so it will really be a public affair. - -(Whereupon, at 2:45 p.m., the Commission recessed and then reconvened -in the auditorium in open session.) - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MARK LANE RESUMED IN OPEN SESSION - - -The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. - -The Commission convened in our committee room on the fourth floor. - -A reporter has been appointed. - -Mr. Lane has been sworn. - -Mr. Lane has stated that he would like to give his testimony at a -public hearing. I explained to him that that was thoroughly agreeable -to the Commission. The Commission does not operate in a secret way. Any -witness who desires to have his--give his testimony in public may do so. - -We have done it in the quiet of our rooms for the convenience of -witnesses, and in order to accelerate the program. But any witness who -desires to have his testimony recorded at a public hearing may do so. - -The purpose of this Commission is, of course, eventually to make known -to the President, and to the American public everything that has -transpired before this Commission. All of it will be made available at -the appropriate time. The records of the work of the Commission will be -preserved for the public. So, Mr. Lane, we will be happy to accommodate -you, and to proceed with our hearing. - -Now, Mr. Rankin will conduct the examination. - -(Having been previously duly sworn.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Lane, will you proceed to tell the Commission whatever -you have that would bear upon this investigation? Start item by item, -and give us whatever you have in support. - -Mr. LANE. Yes, sir. - -At the outset, I would like to call to the Commission's attention a -matter which is somewhat peripheral, perhaps, and should the Commission -determine it does not wish to hear my testimony in that regard, I -will understand that. But I would like to call it to your attention, -because although it is peripheral I think it is related to both the -assassination and the investigation into the assassination of the -President. - -That is in relationship to a picture which has been widely publicized, -probably in every single community of our country, allegedly showing -Lee Harvey Oswald holding in his hand a rifle which has been described -in at least one publication, Life magazine, as the weapon with which he -assassinated President Kennedy. - -I would like to indicate to the Commission at this time that the -pictures which have been distributed throughout the country included -doctored and forged photographs. I would like to present evidence to -the Commission at this time in that regard. - -I ask the Commission if it does conclude that the photographs have been -doctored, whether it will consider determining whether or not a crime -has been committed, or an effort has been made to submit evidence to -the Commission members, though not directly through the press, from -magazines, which evidence---- - -The CHAIRMAN. I didn't get that last sentence--something about the -Commission? - -Mr. LANE. I am asking the Commission if it does conclude that the -pictures have been doctored, to consider investigating the method by -which the doctoring took place, who was responsible, and whether or not -an effort has been made to influence the members of the Commission, -while not directly, through the publication of this picture, which -certainly has been circulated very widely throughout our country. - -The CHAIRMAN. You may be sure, Mr. Lane, that anything you present in -that regard will be thoroughly considered by the Commission. - -Mr. LANE. Thank you, sir. - -I would like to offer the February 21, 1964 issue of Life magazine. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you mark that, Mr. Reporter, please, the next number. - -Mr. LANE. A picture appears on the entire cover of Life magazine, and -an identical picture appears in the interior pages, at page 80. The -caption on the cover reads, "Lee Oswald with the weapons he used to -kill President Kennedy and Officer Tippit." - -I think it is quite plain from looking at both of the pictures that -there appears on the rifle, what appears to be a rifle in the left hand -of Lee Harvey Oswald, a telescopic sight. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Lane, we will mark that Exhibit No. 334. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 334, for -identification.) - -Mr. LANE. Next I would like to offer a picture which is a glossy -8-1/2-by-11 picture, of a photograph published in the New York Times, -secured by the New York Times from the Associated Press. - -Representative FORD. Is there any verification of the fact that that is -as you have identified it? - -Mr. LANE. That is what--a picture secured---- - -Representative FORD. From the New York Times, which in turn had -acquired it from the Associated Press? - -Mr. LANE. Well, that is a statement which I have made under oath, and -it can be verified with the New York Times. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 335 that you are just referring to, Mr. -Lane. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 335, for -identification.) - -Mr. LANE. I suggest that is the identical picture with the one -published on the cover of Life magazine, Exhibit 334, in every respect, -including the creases in the trousers, the background, with the -exception of the rifle in the hands of Oswald, which appears to have no -telescopic scope in Exhibit 335. - -In addition, there clearly has been some other doctoring of the -photograph around the head of Lee Harvey Oswald, and the trees and -other background material over his left shoulder have been removed from -the Associated Press picture, but are present in the Life magazine -picture. - -Shadows and fenceposts which can be observed between the legs of Lee -Harvey Oswald in Exhibit 335 have been removed in the Life magazine -picture. I would like to offer this picture as the next exhibit. - -Mr. RANKIN. That will be marked Exhibit 336. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 336 for -identification.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us what that is, Mr. Lane? - -Mr. LANE. Yes; 336 is an 8-1/2-by-11 glossy photograph of a picture -appearing in Newsweek magazine, March 2, 1964, credited by Newsweek -magazine to the Detroit Free Press. I would suggest that that is an -identical picture with the other two pictures in every respect, except -that it has no telescopic sight on the rifle, and there is a great deal -of metallic materials present on that rifle clearly not present in the -other two pictures. - -The CHAIRMAN. Did you say metallics? - -Mr. LANE. Metallics. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us what you mean by that, Mr. Lane? - -Mr. LANE. Yes. Just below the hand, the left hand of Lee Harvey Oswald, -there is clearly visible a series of pieces of metal, allegedly part of -the rifle, which are in no way clear--which are in no way present in -the other pictures. - -The CHAIRMAN. I see. - -Mr. LANE. To make that clearer, I would like to offer Exhibit 337, -which is an enlargement of the picture 335, the New York Times picture. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 337, for -identification.) - -Mr. LANE. This enlarges the area on the rifle just below what is -allegedly Oswald's left hand. It clearly shows an absolute absence of -all of the metallic material present in the Newsweek photo, 336. - -This is a front page of the New York Journal American dated February -18, 1964, which is an identical picture with the one published in -Life magazine, Exhibit 334, and the credit lines appearing on that -publication indicate that the picture has been secured from the -Associated Press through the Detroit Free Press. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 338, for -identification.) - -Mr. LANE. That picture has a telescopic sight, and is not the picture -in terms of the metal material on the rifle which Newsweek stated they -secured through the Detroit Free Press, and is not the picture without -the telescopic sight which the New York Times states that it secured -through the Associated Press. In any event, I would like to submit a -picture procured from Worldwide Photos. - -Mr. RANKIN. 339. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 339, for -identification.) - -Mr. LANE. This is allegedly a picture taken in the Dallas Police -Station, showing the alleged murder weapon. - -The CHAIRMAN. That is No. 339, Mr. Lane? - -Mr. LANE. Yes, sir, and I would call the Commission's attention to the -curved line of the stock present in Exhibit 339, and obviously absent -from every other picture, indicating that in no event is the rifle -allegedly in the hands of Lee Oswald, in Exhibits 334 through 338 -comparable to the alleged murder weapon as shown in the Dallas police -station. - -And should the Commission decide to investigate the obviously doctored -pictures that have been circulated so widely in our country, I would -refer the Commission investigators to the Times Picayune of New -Orleans, published on November 24, 1963, in which an Associated Press -story indicated that the Dallas police chief, Jesse Curry, stated that -he had in his possession photographs found in the home of Lee Harvey -Oswald's Russian-born wife which linked Oswald with the rifle used -in the assassination of President Kennedy. Curry said in the article -attributed to Curry---- - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you wish to make that a part of the record? - -Mr. LANE. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. That will be Exhibit 340. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 340 for -identification.) - -Mr. LANE. The article attributes a statement to Curry indicating that -he, the Dallas Police Chief, found the pictures in the suburban Irving, -Tex., home in which Marina Oswald lived, and stated that Mr. Curry had -said that the pictures will be used in evidence in Oswald's murder -trial. This was published, I assume, prior to the time that Oswald was -himself killed on that day. - -Representative FORD. Would the date of the paper be on the back side? - -The CHAIRMAN. It is on the front. November 24th. - -Mr. LANE. I would like to offer this as an exhibit. - -Mr. RANKIN. This is marked Commission Exhibit 341. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 341, for -identification.) - -Mr. LANE. Exhibit 341 is a page or portion of a page of the New York -Times, on Sunday, December 8, with a picture of the alleged murder -weapon, secured, according to the credit line under the picture, from -the United Press International, indicating clearly that that rifle is -not the rifle allegedly being held by Mr. Oswald in any of the pictures -so widely circulated throughout our country. - -Mr. RANKIN. On what do you base that last conclusion, Mr. Lane? Would -you point out to the Commission the differences as you see them? - -Mr. LANE. Yes; the reference of the stock. The stock has a clearly -curved and bent line in this picture. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is in Exhibit 341? - -Mr. LANE. Yes, and it is present in none of the pictures of Oswald -holding the rifle; 336, for example, in Newsweek magazine shows almost -a straight stock. Some of them show even an absolutely straight stock. - -Exhibit 335 from the New York Times shows a perfectly straight -stock--which is not only a stock unlike this particular Italian 6.5 -millimeter carbine, but is a stock I believe unlike any rifle stock -produced during the 20th century, and possibly the 19th century, -anywhere. Rifle experts seem to agree that every stock must have in -it some break, so that it is possible to place your hand around the -rifle while your finger holds the trigger. And there is no break in -the doctored photographs, in the stock portrayed on the doctored -photographs. - -I have checked many rifle catalogs. This is not my field, and I don't -qualify as an expert. But I have checked many rifle catalogs, and have -only seen rifles with a break where the stock becomes narrow enough for -one's hand to grasp it while pulling the trigger. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is that the basis of your opinion that you have just given, -that it doesn't have a break in it, and that other rifles for any -period later than you have described do? - -Mr. LANE. Well, several persons who have described themselves as rifle -experts have made that statement to me. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who are those? - -Mr. LANE. I believe I have some of their names here. I don't have the -names of those who have called, but I can secure that at our first -break by a telephone call to my office. - -Mr. RANKIN. Would you furnish that then? - -Mr. LANE. Surely. In any event, whether there was another rifle or -not, the rifle portrayed in the picture is clearly--in the picture in -which Oswald is allegedly holding the rifle--clearly is not the rifle -allegedly claimed to be the murder weapon. I wonder if I might ask the -Commission if it might produce the rifle now, so that we might compare -the actual rifle with the pictures. - -The CHAIRMAN. We will do that in due course. But we don't have the -rifle here now, Mr. Lane. We will make the proper comparisons, you may -be sure, with experts. - -Mr. LANE. Now, on another peripheral matter--unless there are any -further questions in relation to this matter---- - -Mr. RANKIN. No, you may proceed. Do you have negatives of these -pictures you have produced? - -Mr. LANE. No. I am glad you asked that question, because I can now -relate to you about a conversation that I had 2 or 3 days ago with -a Mr. Dirksen, who is on the photo desk of the Associated Press. I -called Mr. Dirksen and asked him for a glossy of the picture which the -Associated Press sent out over the wire service. - -Mr. RANKIN. Could you identify Mr. Dirksen a little more clearly? - -Mr. LANE. He just told me he was employed. I called the Associated -Press in New York City and asked for the photo desk, Mr. Dirksen -answered and said he was employed there. I asked him what his specific -position was there, and he declined to give me that information. He -said he didn't think it was relevant. - -In any event, I asked him if he could secure for me a glossy, a glossy -copy of the picture sent by the Associated Press over the wires. And -I described the picture as the one of Oswald allegedly holding the -murder weapon in his left hand, and having on his right hip a pistol, -allegedly the pistol with which he slew Officer Tippit. - -Mr. Dirksen stated to me that he could not make a glossy of that -picture available to me and I pointed out to him that in the past the -Associated Press had been most cooperative when I asked for pictures, -and he said, "Yes, we sent a whole batch up to you last week, didn't -we?" I said, "Yes, you did, I appreciated that. I wonder why this -picture is being treated differently from other pictures." He said, -"This is not a normal picture and this is not the normal situation." - -I asked him what he meant by that. He explained that there was a -special contract--he did not have all the details, he said, because -he is not one of the persons who was involved in drafting the -contract--but there was a special contract between the Associated Press -and the source of this picture, and they agreed, the Associated Press -agreed in this contract that they would not make a glossy available -to anyone, that they would send the pictures out only to their -subscribers, and that no one else would be allowed to see the picture. - -I said if that was the understanding, I certainly would not wish to -have them breach their agreement, and asked if instead he would make -the name of the source known to me, so that I might go directly to the -source and see if I might secure the picture in that fashion. He stated -he could not do that, because one of the other stipulations in the -contract would be that they could not reveal the name of the source of -the picture. - -I discussed this with an employee of the New York Times thereafter, -since I knew that the New York Times was a subscriber to the services -made available by the Associated Press. - -Mr. RANKIN. Could you identify that employee, please? - -Mr. LANE. No, I am not going to be able to discuss sources, obviously, -here, I am sorry. - -But this employee indicated to me thereafter that an inquiry had been -made by the New York Times to the Associated Press along the same lines -as the inquiry which I had made, in terms of trying to determine the -source of the Associated Press picture. And I was informed by this -employee of the New York Times that the Associated Press declined to -name the source of the picture, even when the New York Times made a -request. Therefore, I do not have the negative, and I do not know the -source of the picture. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is that true with regard to all of the pictures that you -produced? - -Mr. LANE. My office called Life magazine, and asked someone at Life -magazine on the photo desk, the editorial department, if a picture -could be made available and they stated that they would not make a -glossy available--it was their policy in reference to all pictures in -their possession. - -Those are the only inquiries I made with reference to the source of the -pictures. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now you may proceed. - -Mr. LANE. Yes. I would like to raise one other peripheral matter before -going into the evidence, if I might. That is, I would like to call to -the attention of the Commission this article, and ask that it be marked -as an exhibit. - -Mr. RANKIN. That has been marked Commission Exhibit 342. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 342, for -identification.) - -Mr. LANE. Thank you. - -This is an article appearing in the New York Journal American Sunday, -February 23. - -Mr. RANKIN. This consists of two separate pages, does it not? - -Mr. LANE. It does--the first page being a masthead and front page, -headline from the Journal American, dated Sunday, February 23, 1964, -and the second page containing a portion of the front page of the -Journal American on that date, and a portion of page 15, the continued -story of the Journal American on the same date. - -This is an article written by Bob Considine, who enjoys a reputation -for being an excellent reporter. Mr. Considine states in his article -that an eyewitness to the shooting of Officer Tippit by the name of -Warren Reynolds was himself recently shot through the head by a man -with a rifle. - -Now, I don't believe that it is alleged that Reynolds actually saw the -person pull the trigger which sent the bullets at Officer Tippit. As -I understand it, Mr. Reynolds has stated that he, Reynolds, heard the -shot, the shooting, left his office and saw a man running away, placing -new shells into a pistol as he ran away. And Mr. Considine indicates -that Reynolds thereafter identified Oswald as the person who was -running from the scene. - -This article indicated that during January, Mr. Reynolds was himself -shot through the head with a rifle, and that he is in the hospital--I -believe he was in the hospital at that time. I don't know what the -state of his health is at the present time. - -Mr. Considine indicates that a person was picked up in the Dallas area -and charged with the shooting, but that someone who Mr. Considine -refers to as "his girl"--I assume he is making reference to the -gentleman who was charged with the attack upon Reynolds--testified -in such a fashion, and took a lie detector test, so that the person -charged with the crime was released. - -This person, Betty Mooney MacDonald, who helped to free her friend, -according to Mr. Considine, herself had worked as a stripper in the -Carousel Club in Dallas, owned by Jack Ruby. - -Two weeks before this article was written, Miss MacDonald was herself -arrested for a fight with her roommate, and the week before the article -was written, Mr. Considine states she hanged herself in her cell. - -I would request the Commission to investigate into these series of most -unusual coincidences, to see if they have any bearing upon the basic -matter pending before the Commission. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be introduced as are all of these pictures, -admitted. - -(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission -Exhibits Nos. 334 to 342, were received in evidence.) - -Mr. LANE. In the course of my investigation, I have come across some -material which would be relevant only if I was first able to examine -the rifle, quite frankly. I wonder if that might be able to be -accomplished sometime during the day? - -The CHAIRMAN. During the day? - -Mr. LANE. Today, if possible. - -The CHAIRMAN. Well, I think not, because we don't have it. But we will -make it available to you, though, at the very first opportunity, Mr. -Lane. - -Mr. LANE. Fine. Then I will reserve my comment in reference to the -rifle for that occasion. - -The CHAIRMAN. You may. - -Mr. LANE. Thank you. I would like to, on behalf of Lee Harvey Oswald, -make this information available to the Commission. - -It, of course, has been alleged by the chief of police of Dallas, and -by the district attorney of Dallas that Oswald was present on the -sixth floor of the Texas Book Depository Building during the very -early afternoon of November 22, 1963, and that from that area he fired -an Italian carbine, 6.5 millimeters, three times, twice striking the -President of the United States, wounding him fatally, and injuring the -Governor of Texas by striking him with a bullet, on one occasion. - -The physician who signed the death certificate of the President -pronouncing him dead was Dr. Kemp Clark, whose name appeared on the -official homicide report filed by the Dallas Police Department, and -attested to by two police officers. - -On the 27th of November, the New York Times reported, "Dr. Kemp Clark, -who pronounced Mr. Kennedy dead, said one bullet struck him at about -the necktie knot, 'It ranged downward in his chest and did not exit' -the surgeon said." - -On the same day the New York Herald Tribune stated, "On the basis of -accumulated data, investigators have concluded that the first shot -fired as the Presidential car was approaching, struck the President in -the neck, just above the knot of his necktie, then ranged downward into -his body." - -According to Richard Dudman--Mr. Dudman is the Washington -correspondent, as I am sure you all know better than I, for the St. -Louis Post-Dispatch--according to him, the surgeons who attended the -President while he was at the Parkland Memorial Hospital, described -the wound--were in agreement in describing the wound in the throat -as an entrance wound. The St. Louis Post-Dispatch on December 1 -carried a rather long and involved story by Mr. Dudman, recounting his -conversations with the physicians who were treating the President on -the 22d at the Parkland Memorial Hospital. - -Dr. Perry explained that he began to open an air passage in the -President's throat in an effort to restore his breathing, and he -explained that the incision had been made through the bullet wound in -the President's throat--since that was in the correct place for the -operation, in any event. Dr. Perry, according to Mr. Dudman, described -to him the bullet hole as an entrance wound. - -Dr. Robert N. McClelland, who was one of the three physicians who -participated in that operation, later stated to Mr. Dudman, "It -certainly did look like an entrance wound." - -He went on to say that he saw bullet wounds every day in Dallas, -sometimes several times a day, and that this did appear to be an -entrance wound. - -One doctor made reference to the frothing of blood in the neck wound. -The doctor said, "He is bubbling air." Two of the doctors, Drs. -Peters and Baxter, inserted a tube into the right upper part of the -President's chest, just below the shoulder, to reexpand the lungs, and -to keep them from collapsing. - -Dr. Jones and Dr. Perry inserted a similar tube on the left portion of -the President's chest. - -The activity was necessitated because the bubbling air was the first -clue that they had that the President's lung had been punctured. - -The prosecuting authorities, confronted with what seemed then to be -evidence that the President had been shot from the front, in the -throat---- - -The CHAIRMAN. Are you reading now, Mr. Lane? - -Mr. LANE. No, I am just making reference to this. That is not a quote. - -The CHAIRMAN. It is not a quote. You are just paraphrasing what was in -this article of Mr. Dudman's? - -Mr. LANE. No, I am leaving Mr. Dudman now, and going on to statements -made by the prosecuting authorities. I will submit quotations--I will -try to remember to place quotation marks when I have a quotation. - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes, all right. - -Mr. LANE. The authorities who were confronted with what seemed to be -irrefutable evidence that the President had been shot in the front of -the throat, concluded that the Presidential limousine was approaching -the Book Depository Building when the first shot was fired, because -it seems at the very outset a theory was developed by the prosecuting -authorities that Oswald was on the sixth floor of the Book Depository -Building, that he was the assassin, and that he acted alone. - -I think that the record and an examination of the activities of the -Dallas police, and the Dallas district attorney's office, will show -that the only area where they have been consistent from the outset was -once this theory was enunciated, they stayed with the theory, and they -were devoted to the theory, regardless of the discovery of new evidence -and new facts. - -For example, the New York Times stated on November 26, 1963, "The known -facts about the bullets, and the position of the assassin, suggested -that he started shooting as the President's car was coming toward him, -swung his rifle in an arc of almost 180 deg., and fired at least twice -more." At that time, the prosecution case had already been developed in -terms of the theory that Oswald was the assassin and that Oswald acted -alone. - -There were newspaper pictures published in many portions of the country -showing the Textbook Depository Building on Houston Street where the -Presidential limousine approached the Book Depository Building, and Elm -Street, where after the limousine made a sharp left turn it continued -until it reached the underpass directly ahead. - -And in these newspapers, there were superimposed dotted lines showing -the trajectory of the three bullets, showing that the first bullet was -fired while the Presidential car was still on Houston Street, still -approaching the Book Depository Building. - -However, it soon became essential for the prosecution to abandon that -theory, because the eyewitnesses present, including Governor Connally, -and Mrs. Connally, stated that the limousine had already made a left -turn, had passed the Book Depository Building at the time that the -first shot was fired. - -In essence, then, the prosecution remained with the theory that Oswald, -while acting alone, shot the President from the front from the back. - -However,---- - -Mr. RANKIN. I don't understand that. - -Mr. LANE. I don't understand that either, but this was the theory of -the prosecution--that the President had--it had been conceded at that -time that the President had been shot in the front of the throat. -However, the evidence then developed indicated that the Presidential -limousine had already passed the Book Depository Building, and the -President was not facing the Book Depository Building when the first -shot was fired. At that time, Life magazine explains it all in a -full page article entitled, "An End to Nagging Rumors, the 6 Crucial -Seconds." - -And Life conceded that the limousine was some 50 yards past Oswald when -the first shot was fired, and that the shot entered the President's -throat from the front, but explained that the President had turned -completely around and was facing the Book Depository Building when the -shot was fired. - -But that theory, however, could not---- - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you have the date of that article? - -Mr. LANE. That was December 6, Life magazine. The full page article was -entitled "End to Nagging Rumors, the Six Critical Seconds." - -The problem---- - -Senator COOPER. May I ask a question there--just to clarify? Did you -say that in this article that Life said that the late President had -turned around and was facing the Book Depository Building when the shot -was fired? - -Mr. LANE. Yes, Senator. The trouble with that theory, however, which -was enunciated by Life, and from where they secured it I do not -know, but they certainly were in Dallas very much in evidence on the -scene--was that the week prior to then Life magazine itself printed -the stills of the motion pictures, and in those stills, with Life's -own captions, it was quite plain that the President was looking almost -completely forward, just slightly to the right, but almost forward, and -certainly not turned around when the first shot was fired. And so the -stills printed in Life's own publication a week before they enunciated -this theory proved that the Life theory was false. - -In addition to this, persons present on the scene, such witnesses as -Mrs. Connally and the Governor of Texas, indicated that the President -was looking almost straight ahead. And I believe that Mrs. Connally -stated that she had just made a statement to the President, tragically -enough, something about, "You cannot say the people of Dallas have not -given you a warm welcome today," and he was about to respond when the -first bullet struck him. - -In order for the prosecution to remain with the theory in the light -of the new evidence that Oswald was the assassin and he acted alone, -something would have to give, and it became plain that the third try -would have to result in a new examination of the medical testimony. - -Mr. Dudman stated that the doctors at Parkland Hospital, who had, of -course, this vital evidence to offer, were never questioned about the -vital evidence by the FBI or by the Secret Service, and that it was not -until after an autopsy had been performed at Bethesda, that two Secret -Service agents, armed with that report, journeyed down to the Parkland -Hospital and talked to the doctors, for the purpose of explaining to -them that the new medical testimony and evidence indicated they were -all in error at the outset. And, eventually, that was the position -agreed to by the physicians, that they all had been in error when they -stated that it was an entrance wound in the throat. - -Physicians seem to agree that a short period of time after death, as -a result of the deterioration of tissue, it is much more difficult to -examine wounds to determine if they are entrance wounds or exit wounds. - -In addition to this, according to Mr. Dudman in the Post Dispatch -there had been an operation performed on what the doctors thought then -was an entrance wound; therefore, it would seem altering the wound in -the throat so that it would probably be more difficult to determine -if it were an entrance or an exit wound, after the operation had been -completed. - -However, I do not know, of course, what is in the autopsy report--very -likely you have seen that report--but portions of it, whether -accurately or inaccurately, have been leaked to the public through -the press. And the portion which has been leaked to the press, to the -public through the press, in reference to the wound in the President's -throat, indicated that the bullet struck the back of the President's -head, and either a fragment of the bullet or a fragment of bone from -the President's head exited at the throat. - -If this were so, while it could explain perhaps the wound in the -throat, it would be difficult to understand why this was not apparent -to the doctors in the Parkland Hospital, particularly in view of the -fact that it would indicate that the path of the bullet ran from the -top of the head down to the throat, not from the throat down to the -back of the chest, a very different path entirely. - -And since Dr. Perry indicated that he inserted a tube into the -President's throat following the bullet wound, it would be difficult to -understand how he was not aware of the path of the bullet, when it was -absolutely in the opposite direction from the one he thought it was in -when he inserted the tube. - -Most remarkable of all, though, is that if the bullet entered the top -of the head, and a portion of it or a portion of bone exited from the -throat, the collapse of the lungs and the frothing of air at the throat -are both indications of a punctured lung--it would be difficult to -explain by that particular bullet's path. - -I think that an openminded investigating and prosecuting agency would -have found, at the outset, in view of the medical evidence available -at the outset, that the President was shot from the front while -facing slightly to the right, and after passing the book depository -building--an openminded investigating body in Dallas, the district -attorney's office or the police, or others who were associated in that -investigation, might have considered abandoning their theory that -Oswald was the assassin and that he acted alone, and might have been -led by the factual data to investigate in other areas as well--clearly -something that they did not do. - -I have been informed by reporters, for example, that--reporters from -foreign countries covering the trial, that some of them were very -concerned about the fact that they would now not be able to leave -Dallas, that clearly the airports would be closed, there would be -roadblocks placed on many of the streets, the trains would be stopped -or searched, in order that the assassin or those who assisted him, -or those who assisted the assassins, might be prevented from readily -leaving the entire area. - -I am informed by the reporters in the area that there were no such -roadblocks, that planes continued to leave, trains continued to leave, -and that the prosecution continued with its theory that Oswald was the -assassin, that he acted alone, and they had secured his arrest, and -there was nothing more to be done other than to prove as conclusively -as possible, utilizing the press as we know, and the television, and -the radio media for that purpose. - -And while I am on this question, I wonder if I might ask the Commission -to give consideration to--although I don't believe that it is -present in any of the six panels which have been established by the -Commission--but to give consideration nevertheless to the 48 hours -in which Oswald was in custody, in reference to what happened to his -rights as an American citizen, charged with a crime in this country. - -The statement by the National Board of the American Civil Liberties -Union, that had Oswald lived he could not have secured a fair trial -anywhere in this country. - -The CHAIRMAN. You may be sure, Mr. Lane, that that will be given most -serious consideration by the Commission, and the Commission has already -appointed as an act in that direction the President of the American -Bar Association, with such help as he may wish to have, to make an -investigation of that very thing. I assure you it will be done by the -Commission. - -Mr. LANE. Getting back to the evidence, Mr. Chief Justice, the -spectator closest to President Kennedy, a Mrs. Hill, who was a -substitute teacher in the Dallas public school system, stated to me -that she was in her view the closest spectator to the President, and -was standing alongside a Mary Moorman, who resides in Dallas. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you have the date of this interview, Mr. Lane? - -Mr. LANE. It was within the last week. She stated to me that she was -the closest spectator to the President, she and her friend, when the -President was struck by a bullet. She said that she heard some four to -six shots fired. - -Now, she was standing on the grass across the--across Elm Street, -across from the Texas Book Depository Building. She said that in -her--it is her feeling that all of the shots, the four to six shots, -came from the grassy knoll near the triple overpass which was at that -time directly in front and slightly to the right of the Presidential -limousine, and that in her view none of the shots were fired from the -Book Depository Building which was directly across the street from her, -and which was to the rear of the Presidential limousine. - -She said further that after the last shot was fired, she saw a man run -from behind the general area of a concrete facade on that grassy knoll, -and that he ran on to the triple overpass. - -She told me that standing alongside of her was Mary Moorman, who took -a picture of the President just a brief moment before the first shot -was fired, and that agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation took -the film from Miss Moorman, and gave her a receipt, which she still has -in her possession, but that she has not been able to see the picture, -and that it is possible that the picture included the entire Book -Depository Building, taken just precisely a second or less before the -shots were fired. - -Tom Wicker, who is a member of the New York Times White House staff, -who was the only New York Times reporter in Dallas when the President -was shot, stated in an article which appeared in the Saturday Review, -on January 11, 1964, "As we came out of the overpass, I saw a -motorcycle policeman drive over the curb, cross an open area, a few -feet up a railroad bank, dismount, and start scrambling up the bank." -Ronnie Dugger, who is the editor of the Texas Observer, a statewide -publication in Texas, stated in his publication on November 29, 1963, -and later stated to me in two different interviews material of the same -nature. - -I am now quoting from the publication: - -"On the other side of the overpass a motorcycle policeman was -roughriding across some grass to the trestle for the railroad tracks, -across the overpass. He brought his cycle to a halt and leapt from it -and was running up the base of the trestle when I lost sight of him." - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you give us the date of the paper that came from? - -Mr. LANE. Yes. That was the Texas Observer, November 29, 1963. That -statement has been confirmed by Mr. Dugger to me in two interviews in -Dallas. - -James Vachule, who is a reporter for the Fort Worth Star Telegram, -said, "I heard the shots, several, at the triple overpass." - -And Jerry Flemmons, reporting also for the Fort Worth Star Telegram, -on November 22, 1963, stated, "Kennedy was gunned down by an assassin, -apparently standing on the overpass above the freeway." - -Now, I spoke to a Mary Woodward, who is an employee of the Dallas -Morning News, and she stated that she was present with three coworkers, -all employees of the Dallas Morning News, and they were standing near -the--the base of the grassy knoll, perhaps 50 feet or so from the -overpass, with the overpass to their right, and the book depository -building to their left. And on November 23, 1963, the Dallas Morning -News ran a story by Miss Woodward, and I have since that time spoken -with Miss Woodward by telephone, and she has confirmed portions--the -entire portion which I will quote from now--in her conversation with me. - -That is, that as she and her three coworkers waited for the President -to pass, on the grassy slope just east of the triple overpass, she -explained that the President approached and acknowledged their cheers -and the cheers of others, "he faced forward again, and suddenly there -was an ear-shattering noise coming from behind us and a little to the -right." - -Here we have a statement, then, by an employee of the Dallas Morning -News, evidently speaking--she indicated to me that she was speaking on -behalf of all four employees, all of whom stated that the shots came -from the direction of the overpass, which was to their right, and not -at all from the Book Depository Building, which was to their left. - -Miss Woodward continued, "Instead of speeding up the car, the car came -to a halt. Things are a little bit hazy from this point, but I don't -believe anyone was hit with the first bullet. The President and Mrs. -Kennedy turned and looked around as if they, too, didn't believe the -noise was really coming from a gun. Then after a moment's pause there -was another shot, and I saw the President slumping in the car." - -This would seem to be consistent with the statement by Miss Hill that -more than three shots were fired. - -In addition to these statements, James A. Chaney, who is a Dallas -motorcycle policeman, was quoted in the Houston Chronicle on November -24, 1963, as stating that the first shot missed entirely. He said he -was 6 feet to the right and front of the President's car, moving about -15 miles an hour, and when the first shot was fired. "I thought it was -a backfire", he said. - -Now, Miss Hill told me that when she was questioned--put that word -unfortunately in quotation marks--by the U.S. Secret Service agents, -that they indicated to her what her testimony should be, and that is -that she only heard three shots. And she insisted that she heard from -four to six shots. And she said that at least one agent of the Secret -Service said to her, "There were three wounds and there were three -shells, so we are only saying three shots." And they raised with her -the possibility that instead of hearing more than three shots, that she -might have heard firecrackers exploding, or that she might have heard -echoes. - -Despite this type of questioning by the Secret Service, Miss Hill -continued to maintain, the last I spoke with her, about a week ago, -that she heard from four to six shots. - -Now, to the best of my knowledge, from my investigation, which has been -very severely limited by lack of personnel and almost total lack of -funds, and, therefore, is clearly not the kind of investigation which -is required here--but from this limited investigation, it seems that -only two persons immediately charged into the Texas Book Depository -Building after the shots were fired. They were an officer of the Dallas -Police Force, Seymour Weitzman, who submitted an affidavit to the -Dallas police office, in which he stated that he discovered the rifle -on the sixth floor of the Book Depository Building. - -There was one other gentleman who ran into the building, and that was -Roy S. Truly, who was and is, I believe, the director of the Book -Depository Building. - -However, Mr. Truly stated that he believed that the shots came from the -direction of the overpass and from the grassy knoll. And although he -was standing directly in front of the Book Depository Building, he did -not believe that the shots came from that building. - -Standing with him at the time of the assassination was O. V. Campbell, -who was the vice president of the Book Depository Building. - -In the Dallas Morning News on November 23, 1963, it was stated that -"Campbell says he ran toward a grassy knoll to the west of the building -where he thought the sniper had hidden." - -So we have two persons that we know of standing in front of the Book -Depository Building, and they both thought that the shots came from the -grassy knoll near the overpass. - -The police officer, Seymour Weitzman, submitted an affidavit to the -Dallas district attorney's office, he and Mr. Truly, as I indicated -a moment ago were the only two who charged into the Book Depository -Building when the shots were fired. - -Weitzman indicated in his affidavit--I assume you have the original of -that affidavit--that he ran "in a northwest direction, scaled the fence -toward where we thought the shots came from." - -He indicated "then someone said they thought the shots came from the -old Texas Building. I immediately ran to the Texas Building and started -looking inside." - -So even the two people who ran into the building indicated that they -did not believe the shots came from the building. - -Mr. Weitzman went into the building because someone whose name he -did not give in his affidavit told him to go into the building, and -then Truly explained that although he thought the shots came from the -general direction of the grassy knoll or the overpass in front of the -President's limousine, he saw this officer run into the building, of -which he is a director, and he felt that since he knew the building and -the officer did not, he should go in the building to assist the officer. - -From published accounts, and from my investigation, I can only find one -person who thought that the shots came from the building, and that was -the Chief of Police in Dallas, Jesse Curry, who said as soon as the -shots were fired, he knew they came from the building. From the Book -Depository Building. - -Now, of course, there were many persons present there whom I have not -quoted, to whom I have no access. - -Now, I spoke on several occasions with the reporter for the Fort Worth -Star Telegram, whose name is Thayer Waldo. Mr. Waldo was standing with -a police captain near the Dallas Trade Mart Building, which was the -building, public building, where the President was going to have spoken -that day. Mr. Waldo was awaiting his arrival, the President's arrival -there, when a sergeant who was seated in a police cruiser called the -captain over hurriedly to the police car. Mr. Waldo accompanied the -captain to the police car. And Mr. Waldo stated to me that he heard -the first bulletin which came over the Dallas police radio, and it was -"Bulletin. The President has been shot. It is feared that others in his -party have been wounded. The shots came from a triple overpass in front -of the Presidential automobile." - -So even the police, despite the Chief of Police's later assertion that -he knew that the shots came from the Book Depository Building, behind -the Presidential limousine, the first police radio broadcast indicated -that it was the police position at that time that the shots came from -the front, not from the rear. - -Now, Patrolman Chaney, who I made reference to a little earlier, -the motorcycle patrolman, stated that the Presidential car stopped -momentarily after the first shot. That statement was consistent -with Miss Woodward's statement in the Dallas Morning News, that the -automobile came to almost a complete halt after the first shot, and the -statement of many other witnesses as well. - -Mr. RANKIN. When was that statement made? - -Mr. LANE. That statement appeared in the newspaper I made reference to -before, the Houston Chronicle, on November 24, 1963. - -Mr. RANKIN. When you made an independent inquiry at any time, would you -tell us, Mr. Lane? - -Mr. LANE. Yes, I certainly shall do that. - -Now, I think one has to conjecture as to why the Secret Service agent -who was undoubtedly trained for this assignment, and particularly the -agent who was driving the Presidential limousine in Dallas, where -we were told that the greatest efforts ever to protect an American -President were going to be made that day, because of the previous -difficulties in Dallas, the attack upon our Ambassador to the United -Nations and the attack upon the then Senator Johnson, when he spoke in -Dallas in 1960--one would assume that the most qualified Secret Service -driver that could be secured would be driving that automobile. It is -difficult to understand why the automobile almost came to a complete -stop after the first shot was fired, if the shots were coming from the -rear. The natural inclination, it would seem, would be to step on the -gas and accelerate as quickly as possible. However, if the driver were -under the impression that the shots were from the front, one could -understand his hesitation in not wanting to drive closer to the sniper -or snipers. - -In addition, however, Roy Kellerman, who was in the front right-hand -seat of the automobile, who I am told was in charge of the Secret -Service operation that day, the director of the Secret Service not -being present in Dallas on that occasion--according to the pictures -printed in Life magazine, Mr. Kellerman looked forward until the first -shot was fired. Then he turned back, and looked at the President. He -immediately looked forward again, and was looking in the direction of -the overpass while the second shot was fired, and while the third shot -was fired. - -One would certainly expect that Mr. Kellerman was and is a trained -observer, who would not panic in such a circumstance, for which he has -received his training. - -The pictures I make reference to are those in Life magazine which I -referred to a little earlier in the afternoon. - -Senator COOPER. May I ask a question there, Mr. Chief Justice? - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes, go right ahead, Senator. - -Senator COOPER. This last statement you made, about the Secret Service -agent who turned, so that he was faced to the rear, toward the -President, and then turned forward--I didn't quite understand what you -deduced from that. - -Mr. LANE. I assumed that he was looking toward the sound of the shots. - -Senator COOPER. You mean when he turned to the rear, or turned ahead? - -Mr. LANE. Well, when the President was shot, and was struck he then -turned around, which I would imagine would be an ordinary response when -somebody in an automobile with whom you are riding has been shot. - -But immediately after that, before the second shot was fired, he turned -completely to the front, and was looking at the overpass during the -remainder of the time that the shots were fired. It would seem to -indicate to me that it is possible that Mr. Kellerman felt that the -shots were coming from the general direction in which he was looking. - -Mr. RANKIN. What do you base your statement on that the car stopped, -the President's limousine? - -Mr. LANE. The statement made by various witnesses, including Mr. -Chaney, a motorcycle policeman, Miss Woodward, who was one of the -closest witnesses to the President at the time that he was shot, and -others. I think that is the--I haven't documented that beyond that, -because that seemed to be so generally conceded by almost everyone, -that the automobile came to--almost came to a complete halt after the -first shot--did not quite stop, but almost did. And, of course, you -have the films, I assume, of the assassination and know more about that -than I do, certainly. - -Now, in reference to the rifle, there is on file--I assume that you -have it or copies of it--in the Dallas district attorney's office or -the police office in Dallas, an affidavit sworn to by Officer Weitzman, -in which he indicates that he discovered the rifle on the sixth floor -of the Book Depository Building at, I believe, 1:22 p.m., on November -22, 1963. - -Now, in this affidavit, Officer Weitzman swore that the murder -weapon--that the weapon which he found on the sixth floor was a -7.65 Mauser, which he then went on to describe in some detail, with -reference to the color of the strap, et cetera. - -Now, the prosecuting attorney, of course, took exactly the same -position, and for hours insisted that the rifle discovered on the sixth -floor was a German Mauser, adding the nationality. A German Mauser is -nothing at all like an Italian carbine. I think almost any rifle expert -will indicate that that is so. - -I have been informed that almost every Mauser--and I am not able to -document this, unfortunately, but I am sure that you have easy access -to rifle experts--that almost every German Mauser has stamped upon it -the caliber, as does almost every Italian carbine. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know the difference between the two? - -Mr. LANE. Do I know the difference? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mr. LANE. I know the difference between an Army M-l and an American -carbine--those are the only two weapons I fired--during the war. No, I -don't know anything about rifles, other than those two rifles, which I -used at one time. - -I think it is most interesting to note that when Oswald was arrested -we were informed immediately that he had an alias--his last name was -Lee in that alias--as well as a great deal of material about his -political background and activities on behalf of the Fair Play for Cuba -Committee, and his defection to the Soviet Union, et cetera. But the -alias was raised immediately. - -The following day, on the 23d, when it was announced by the Federal -Bureau of Investigation, that Oswald had purchased an Italian carbine, -6.5 millimeters, under the assumed name, A. Hidell, then for the first -time the district attorney of Dallas indicated that the rifle in his -possession, the alleged murder weapon, had changed both nationality -and size, and had become from a German 7.65 Mauser, an Italian 6.5 -carbine. And, further he indicated then for the first time that they -knew of another alias maintained by Lee Oswald. In addition to the -name Lee, which they discovered, they said, by going to the home where -he lived--the house where he had lived in Dallas, where he rented a -room, a rooming house, they discovered there he had secured the room -under the name Lee. Mr. Wade stated that on Oswald's person, in his -pocketbook, was an identification card made out to A. Hidell, and -I have seen pictures of this reproduced in either Time magazine or -Newsweek, or one of the weekly news magazines--I believe it was one or -the other--with a picture of Oswald appearing on this card, plainly -indicating that Oswald had the alias A. Hidell, to Mr. Wade. - -I think it is interesting that the name Lee as an alias was released -immediately, although some investigation was required to secure that -alias. But the name A. Hidell, was not released as an alias, although -that was present and obvious by mere search of Oswald's person when he -was arrested. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you give us the time of the release of the information -about the alias, A. Hidell? - -Mr. LANE. That was on November 23. - -Mr. RANKIN. And how about Lee? - -Mr. LANE. November 22. The first release of the name A. Hidell came -from the district attorney's office after the FBI had indicated that -Oswald had purchased an Italian carbine under that name. - -If I were permitted to cross-examine Mr. Wade, which evidently you have -decided that I shall not be permitted to do, and Officer Weitzman, I -would seek to find out how about the most important single element in -probably this case or any other murder case, physical evidence, the -murder weapon, in a case which I am sure is Mr. Wade's most important -case--how he could be so completely in error about this. - -Mr. Wade is a very distinguished prosecuting attorney, has been one for -some 13 or 14 years, and I believe was an agent of the Federal Bureau -of Investigation prior to that time. - -I would like to know how he could have been so wrong about something so -vital. - -Now, assuming that the rifle found on the sixth floor was an Italian -rifle, Italian carbine, one must wonder how it was possible for any -number of things to happen for it to be fired there three times and -strike the President in front of the throat, although he was past -that building, and for the noise, according to the witnesses of the -shooting, to have come from a different place entirely. - -But in addition to that, one must wonder if that rifle is capable of -the performance which the prosecuting authorities allege that it gave -on that day. An Olympic rifle champion, Hubert Hammerer, said that he -doubts that it could be done. - -Mr. RANKIN. Could you give us his address? - -Mr. LANE. He is not in the United States. The story appeared in the New -York Times. I don't have the exact date. - -Representative FORD. What nationality is he? - -Mr. LANE. I don't know. - -Representative FORD. Do you know when he was Olympic champion? - -Mr. LANE. No, I don't know that. I do know it probably was some time -after the Italian carbine was manufactured, since it is an extremely -old weapon, manufactured back in 1938, as I recall. There seems to be -an agreement that the period of time was between 5 and 6 seconds from -the first shot to the last shot. - -There is a serious question in the minds, I think, of persons who have -fired that pistol--that rifle--first of all, as to its ability to be -fired that quickly accurately with a telescopic sight, and secondly, in -reference to the ammunition which is available. Various persons have -tested various lots of ammunition. Someone from the National Rifle -Association told me that he tested more than 30 rounds, a little over -30 rounds of the Italian 6.5---- - -Mr. RANKIN. When you refer to these people, will you tell us the names -of any of them that you can? It might be of help to us. - -Mr. LANE. I should remember this gentleman, because I just spoke with -him. That is another name I am going to have to supply for you. - -Mr. RANKIN. Thank you. - -Mr. LANE. He is a member of the board of directors of the National -Rifle Association. He purchased for one of the television networks some -30 rounds, a little over 30 rounds, and told me that 20 of them did -not fire at all, and 6 of them were guilty of hanged fire, which is a -phrase I don't know anything about, but he tells me that means it did -not fire fully, and, therefore, could not be accurate. Therefore, a -very small percentage of the ammunition was of any value. - -Mr. Ed Wallace talked about making a similar test in the New York World -Telegram and Sun, in a feature article, and I think he said that he -went with an expert, and they got 20 rounds of this ammunition, and of -those 17 did not fire--only 3 fired. It was very old ammunition. - -Representative FORD. Who is Ed Wallace, and who is the individual that -Ed Wallace referred to? Do you have that information? - -Mr. LANE. I believe Mr. Wallace indicated that he was present when the -test was made. But it was an article appearing in the New York World -Telegram and Sun within a week after the assassination--from the 23d to -the 30th of November. And I can secure and mail to you a copy of that -article, if you prefer. - -While there may be some question as to whether or not a rifle expert -could secure such performance from a rifle, or whether or not one could -secure enough good ammunition to get such performance, I think there -is general agreement that only in the hands of a rifle expert could -one attempt to come close to that kind of shooting that it is alleged -Oswald did on November 22. - -The Times reported on November 23, "As Marines go, Lee Harvey Oswald -was not highly regarded as a rifleman." And you have in your files, -of course, the scorecard indicating Oswald's marksmanship or lack of -marksmanship while in the Marine Corps. - -In addition to that, you have the documents given to you by Marguerite -Oswald, Lee Oswald's mother, which contained a scorecard maintained by -Oswald while in the Marine Corps, showing his score in fast and slow -shooting at various different yardages, in reference to both an M-l, as -I recall, and an American carbine. Now, of course, it has been alleged -on occasion that Mr. Oswald practiced with his rifle, on occasion, on -weekends, at rifle ranges. - -Mrs. Paine, with whom Lee Oswald's wife lived for the 2 month period -preceding the assassination, and where Lee Oswald himself spent -weekends for that 2 months period preceding the assassination, told me -that Oswald could not have ever gone to a rifle range on a weekend, -since she can account for his whereabouts during that entire 2 month -period just preceding the assassination. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you give us the day of that conversation with Mrs. -Paine? - -Mr. LANE. I have had about five conversations with her. The first one -would be, oh, I believe, New Year's Day. I think that is the first -time--this year--I believe that is the first time that she made the -statement to me. She said she could account for Oswald's whereabouts -during that 2 month period on weekends, from Friday late afternoon, -when he left work in Dallas and arrived there in Irving, until early -Monday morning. - -She said the exception is during that time--she didn't watch him every -moment, of course--there might be exceptions when she went shopping for -half an hour, and he was left home to take care of the children, her -two children, his children. But that unless he ran out quickly into the -back yard with the rifle and shot and then quickly put the rifle away -while caring for three children, or four children, that it would be -impossible for him to practice with the rifle on weekends. - -Since it has been alleged that the rifle was in the garage during the -entire period of time, of course--that was in Irving, Tex., and he was -in Dallas, Tex.--it would have been impossible for him to practice -during the week while he was in Dallas, with that particular rifle. - -Of course one must zero in a rifle in order to be even fairly accurate -with it. One must practice with the specific weapon which one is going -to use, in order to have any accuracy, in any event. - -Now, I spoke with Dial M. Ryder, who is a gunsmith in Irving, Tex., -at the Irving Sport Shop, and he told me that he mounted a telescopic -sight on a rifle for a man named Oswald during October 1963. - -Now, unfortunately, he does not recall--that is around the deer -season, he informed me, and a lot of people are getting rifles -fixed or repaired or sights mounted on them during that time in the -Dallas-Irving area. And he does not recall, therefore, what this -gentleman named Oswald looks like. - -But he does know that a rifle was brought to him by someone whose name -now appears in this record as Oswald, and that he drilled three holes -in the rifle for a mount, telescopic mount. He said he had only seen -three rifles which required three holes for telescopic mount--a 303 -British Enfield, a 303 American Springfield army surplus rifle, or an -Eddystone, which is also an American rifle. He said, therefore, he did -not attach a telescopic sight to the Italian carbine, because he would -have only drilled two holes. - -His employer, I think his name is Greener, he told me, checked with all -the Oswalds they could find in the Irving area after this matter came -to their attention, and could not find anyone in that area--and they -called some people in Dallas also named Oswald--could not find anyone -named Oswald who brought the rifle in to him. - -I talked to Milton Klein, who is the owner of Klein's sporting -goods store in Chicago--Klein's Sporting Goods is the name of the -establishment, in Chicago. - -Mr. RANKIN. When was this? - -Mr. LANE. I spoke with him within the last 2 or 3 days. And he told -me that--he runs the mail-order house which sent the carbine, Italian -carbine, to Dallas, not to Oswald, but to A. Hidell, and that he sent -that out with the holes already bored in the Italian carbine, and -equipped with a telescopic sight which was already attached to the -rifle. - -Aguto Marcelli, who is a correspondent for an Italian publication which -appears physically very much to be like Life magazine, called Leuropeo, -stated to me that he had spoken with Mr. Klein, and Mr. Klein told him -that the FBI--"The FBI warned me to keep my trap shut." - -Mr. RANKIN. When was this? - -Mr. LANE. He told me this about 2 weeks ago. When I spoke with Mr. -Klein, about 3 days ago, 2 or 3 days ago, he indicated that he did not -want to discuss any aspect of this matter with me. And I asked him if -that was because he was told not to talk with anyone about this case, -and he said yes. - -And I said, "Who told you that?" - -He said, "The FBI agents told me, ordered me not to discuss this case." - -I pointed out to him that if he did not wish to discuss the case -with me, I would not force him to. There was no way that he would -be compelled to answer any of the questions that I asked him. But, -however, in our democratic society, the FBI cannot order anyone not to -discuss a case, and that such an order to him was not a valid order, if -he wanted to discuss the case with me--he could. - -So he did. And he told me what I informed you--that the FBI told him -not to discuss the case, and that he mailed this rifle with the holes -already bored and with the telescopic sight already mounted to someone -named A. Hidell. - -He also said that "No ammunition was purchased from me by Hidell at -that time or since." - -Senator COOPER. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question? - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Did he name any person with the FBI who told him not to -discuss the case? - -Mr. LANE. No; he did not. - -Senator COOPER. Can you identify--did he identify him in any way? - -Mr. LANE. He did not identify him. Earlier, perhaps before you arrived, -Senator, I made reference to a statement made by Mrs. Hill, who was -told by the Secret Service--I think perhaps you were here--that only -three shots were fired. And I asked her specifically if she could -identify that Secret Service agent, and she told me that she could not, -there was such tremendous confusion at that time, there were so many -agents of the FBI and Secret Service that she spoke to, that she did -not think she could. But possibly if she saw him, she might be able to -recognize him. - -I didn't go any further into that question, however, with Mr. Klein. He -seemed very reluctant to discuss that entire area--to discuss anything, -but particularly that area. - -I read in the Dallas Times Herald, on November 25, 1963, the statement -made by Mr. Wade, when asked what they had tying Oswald to the -"crime of the century" and his response was, according to the Dallas -Times Herald, "If I had to single out any one thing, it would be the -fingerprints on the rifle, and the book cartons which he used to prop -the weapon on." - -On the same day the World Telegram and Sun reported "Federal -authorities have concluded that no readable print was found on the -murder weapon when it was flown to Washington for laboratory studies." - -There were certain leaks that a fingerprint or a palm print was -discovered on the bolt of the rifle. If that is so, it would be -remarkable if it were a print belonging to anyone other than Captain -Fritz of the Homicide Squad in Dallas, because according to the -affidavit signed by Officer Weitzman, who discovered the weapon, and I -am quoting now from the affidavit on file--at that time on file with -the district attorney's office, "The time the rifle was found was 1:22 -p.m. Captain Fritz took charge of the rifle, and ejected one live round -from the Chamber. I then went back to the office after this." - -Now, you know if you have worked with that rifle that the--on most -Italian carbines that bolt is not worked too easily. One really has to -grab a hold of it and pull back. It would be unusual if a fingerprint -belonging to someone other than the person who did that survived. - -The first statement made by Mr. Wade in reference to the taxi driver -who he alleged--he, Wade, alleged took Oswald generally from this -scene, indicated that the driver's name was Daryl Click. - -Now, that statement was not made in the first hours of the arrest. That -statement was not made until after Chief Curry had announced to the -press in Dallas, on that day, November 24th that the case was closed, -there would be no further investigation--Oswald was the assassin, he -had acted alone, he was then dead. And as a result of the change in -policy, to reopen the case and have Mr. Wade assume a position in front -of the radio and television microphones and cameras of the Nation, on -that evening November 24, Mr. Wade then presented what he said was the -evidence "for you piece by piece." And part of the evidence which he -had secured was the proof that a taxi driver named Daryl Click drove -Oswald roughly from the scene to his home, to Oswald's home. - -When I was in Dallas--I suppose this was on January 2d, my first trip -there in reference to this matter--I spoke with a Mr. Roseboro of the -Teamsters Union--they have organized the taxi drivers in Dallas--and -asked him if he knew--if he could give me any information about a Daryl -Click. He said he did not have the name in his files, but Texas being a -right-to-work law State, it is possible, he said, that Mr. Click was a -driver but not a member of that union. He referred me to the personnel -department of the City Transportation Co., which he told me was the one -company monopoly running all the taxis in Dallas. - -I spoke with the City Transportation Co. personnel office, Mr. Pott, as -I recalled, who checked the records, and indicated to me that there was -no Daryl Click who drove a taxi in Dallas. - -Some time after Mr. Wade stated that Daryl Click was the taxi driver, -he then stated that a person by the name of William Whaley was the taxi -driver who took Oswald from the scene after he left the bus to his home. - -It is therefore alleged by the prosecution that Oswald, after firing -upon the Presidential limousine, walked the entire floor from the front -of the Book Depository Building to the rear of the warehouse, almost -to the extreme rear, where he hid the rifle, where it was found, and -then took the stairs at the rear of the Book Depository Building and -walked down four flights, until he arrived at the second floor, and -then he walked to the Coca-Cola machine, which was at the front of the -building, meaning he crossed the entire warehouse floor again, and -he purchased a Coca-Cola, and was sipping it when a police officer -arrived with a gun drawn, questioned him briefly. Mr. Truly explained -to the officer that Oswald worked there. And eventually Oswald left the -building, boarded a bus, then walked, after leaving the bus--walked two -blocks and entered Mr. Whaley's taxi, at exactly 12:30, according to -Mr. Whaley. The shots that killed the President were fired at 12:31. - -Now, there is on file in the district attorney's office--I assume you -have the original or copies of it--a report of a paraffin test taken -of Oswald, of both his hands and his face. The test proved, according -to Mr. Curry, and the statement that he made on Saturday, November -23, to the press that Oswald had fired the murder weapon. However, a -reading of the test indicates that one could come to a very different -conclusion. - -The test in reference to the face proved negative, indicating that -Oswald had not fired a rifle on November 22, 1963--although the test on -the hands showed positive--indicating, according to the person who did -the analysis, the kinds of patterns consistent with one having fired -a revolver. That was the statement on the test taken and conducted by -a Louis L. Anderson, on November 23, 1963, by the Dallas City County -Crime Investigation Laboratory. - -Now, it has, of course, been alleged that after Oswald shot the -President and took a bus and a taxi, and went home and got a jacket, -he then shot and killed Officer Tippit. The affidavit in the district -attorney's office indicates that a person saw a stopped police car, -walked up to the police car, leaned on it with his arms on the window, -or what would be a windowsill or window ledge of the automobile, and -then stepped back a step or two, the officer came out, and this person -shot Officer Tippit to death. - -The affidavit is peculiarly sparse in reference to the description of -the assailant, the man who killed Tippit, by an eyewitness who said she -was just 50 feet away. - -Her description of this person is found in two different portions of -the affidavit--he was young, white, male, and that is the entire -description present in the affidavit at that time. - -I spoke with the deponent, the eyewitness, Helen Louise Markham, -and Mrs. Markham told me--Miss or Mrs., I didn't ask her if she was -married--told me that she was a hundred feet away from the police -car, not the 50 feet which appears in the affidavit. She gave to me -a more detailed description of the man who she said shot Officer -Tippit. She said he was short, a little on the heavy side, and his -hair was somewhat bushy. I think it is fair to state that an accurate -description of Oswald would be average height, quite slender, with thin -and receding hair. - -Helen Markham said to me that she was taken to the police station on -that same day, that she was very upset, she of course had never seen -anyone killed in front of her eyes before, and that in the police -station she identified Oswald as the person who had shot Officer Tippit -in the lineup, including three other persons. She said no one pointed -Oswald out to her--she was just shown four people, and she picked -Oswald. - -She said--when I asked her how she could identify him--she indicated -she was able to identify him because of his clothing, a gray jacket and -dark trousers. And this was the basis for her identification--although -Oswald physically does not meet the description which she indicated. - -Representative FORD. When did you have this conversation with the -deponent? - -Mr. LANE. Within the last 5 days. - -Representative FORD. Some time in late February 1964? - -Mr. LANE. Or perhaps even early March, yes, sir. - -Now, I inquired--I told her that I was coming here today, and that I -was completing my investigation as Oswald's lawyer, and asked her if -she would discuss the matter with me, and she said she would. - -I asked her if anyone had asked her not to discuss this matter with me. -At first she seemed reluctant, and she said she was reluctant because -I called her at her place of employment, the Eat Well Cafe in Dallas. -I tried her at home many times before then, but her phone was always -busy. I believe it is a phone which is not her personal one, but is a -common phone shared by others in the building where she resides. - -I apologized for calling her at her place of employment. And she seemed -reluctant to talk to me. I asked if anyone had asked her not to talk -about this case with anyone. She said yes, she had been told by the -FBI, by Secret Service agents, and by Dallas police, all three groups, -not to discuss anything in relation to this case, and that by and large -she had not. - -I told her that somewhere it occurred to me that I had seen an article -in a newspaper in which she described the assailant of Oswald as short, -stocky, and with bushy hair--I'm sorry, the assailant of Tippit--as -being short, stocky, with bushy hair. And she said she did talk to a -reporter, she thinks, for one of the Dallas newspapers, the Dallas -Times-Herald or the Dallas Morning News--but that is the only time she -talked to anybody. - -I would like to call to the Commission's attention the entire brief -narrative of the entire case, as presented by the district attorney's -office at this point, or at least on the 24th, because it seems to me -to be so full of incredible happenings, that it would be very difficult -to submit such a story to a jury by a prosecution generally. - -If everything that the prosecution in this case says is true, one must -conclude that Oswald behaved in a very, very unusual manner from the -beginning to the end. - -He decided on Thursday, November 21, that he was going to assassinate -the President, and so he decided to go back to Irving, Tex., to secure -a rifle there, in order to carry out that purpose. He had on his person -some $13 when arrested, and almost $150 in cash in the top drawer -of his dresser--so we can assume that on Thursday, the 21st, he had -roughly that amount of money present. - -One can purchase a rifle for less than $13 in many stores in Dallas. -There is no question about that. By using a small portion of that $150, -he could have purchased a rifle absolutely superior to the Italian -carbine at home in Irving in many respects. And there are gun magazines -which have had editorials dwelling on this question, saying that if -Oswald did it with this weapon, and they do not move into the question -of whether or not he did, it was an absolute miracle, because no one -who knew anything about rifles would have chosen such a decrepit, -worthless rifle, as this Italian carbine, manufactured in 1938, for -which there is such pure ammunition. There are a series, I believe, of -editorials in gun magazines proving that Oswald, I think, as a matter -of pride, from a sportsman's viewpoint--that Oswald was in no way -associated with weapons and did not belong in that category, because he -could not have chosen such a weapon. - -Representative FORD. Could you give us the citations of one of these -magazines? - -Mr. LANE. Yes. One is called Gun Magazine. I do not recall the names. -But that is one of them. I am sure there was such an editorial in that -one. I will get the other one and mail those to you also. - -But I think there would have to be a more compelling reason for Oswald -not to go home and get that particular inferior rifle if he decided on -Thursday to kill the President. That was the only rifle in the whole -world probably that could be traced to him. One can purchase a rifle -in almost any community in this country, certainly in Dallas, without -any notoriety attaching to it, without giving one's name or address, or -having a serial number attached to a receipt kept by a store indicating -who owns that particular rifle. - -But here we have Oswald going home to get an inferior rifle, which -rifle is the only rifle in the whole world which can be traced to him, -which rifle he is going to leave behind as a calling card after the -assassination is complete. - -And so he goes home to Irving, Tex., and he gets this rifle, and -he wraps it up in paper, we are told, and brings it in to the Book -Depository Building. - -Now, the rifle can be broken down, I believe, from examining other -Italian carbines. But it would be not much shorter if it was broken -down--perhaps 6 or 7 inches shorter. Evidently, though, he did not do -that. - -So he took this rifle into the book depository building, which I -suggest, gentlemen, is a most remarkable thing. This was going to be -the greatest series of precautions in the history of the United States -to protect an American President. As we know now, and suspected then, -with very good reason, because of the nature of what had gone before, -with reference to public officials in Dallas--and here we have a -man who has defected to the Soviet Union, who has married a Russian -national, active on behalf of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, we -see a discharge less than honorable from the U.S. Marine Corps, who -was working in the building exactly on the Presidential route. Not -only is it on the Presidential route, but it is the building where the -automobile is going to have to clearly slow down because of the sharp -turn, sharp left turn, made right in front of the building. - -And despite all of these precautions--and I have been informed that -there were serious precautions taken in Dallas on that day by the -Dallas police and by others, and that persons who did no more publicly, -who did no more ever politically than to publicly speak in favor of -school integration, were followed that day as potential assassins in -Dallas. - -Nevertheless, Oswald, with that background, is permitted to walk into -the Book Depository Building, directly on the Presidential route, -carrying with him in his hand a full rifle. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us the information on which you base this, -about anyone who merely spoke about school integration? - -Mr. LANE. Yes. A reporter for the Dallas Morning News told me that, -told me he was absolutely certain that was so. But before revealing -his name, I am going to have to call him and indicate I am going to do -that. I will be happy to do that. I am glad you are interested in that -matter, because I think it is a most important one. - -I suggest that the Federal Bureau of Investigation knew that Oswald -worked at the Texas Book Depository Building, which was on the -Presidential route. An FBI agent by the name of Hosty visited the home -of the Paines in Irving, Tex., sometime during September and October. -He visited that home on more than one occasion. Each of the at least -two times that he was there, possibly three but I am not certain--but -I was told he was there two times--I know I was told by Mrs. Paine -in the presence of her husband, Michael Paine, that Agent Hosty was -there at least on two occasions--each time he was there he asked -where Oswald was. Mrs. Paine explained to Agent Hosty, she told me, -that Oswald lived there only on weekends, and that during the week -Agent Hosty could find him at his room in Dallas, where he stayed -during the week, or during the daytime could find him at the Texas Book -Depository Building, where he was an employee. Nevertheless--and that -Oswald would not be found in Irving, Tex. at the Paine's home during -the week. Nevertheless, Agent Hosty returned again at least one more -time to the Paine home in Irving, during the week, during the day, -I believe--certainly during the week--and again asked about Oswald, -and again Mrs. Paine told him that he worked at the Book Depository -Building, he would not be there, she said, "As we told you last time -he won't be here during the week. During the daytime during the week -you can find him at his job at the Book Depository Building, and during -the nighttime during the week you can find him at his rooming house in -Dallas." - -Mr. RANKIN. Did she tell you whether she told him where the rooming -house was? - -Mr. LANE. I do not believe I asked her that question, and I don't -believe she mentioned that. - -Well, to go back to the prosecution narrative, or narrative according -to the facts presented by the prosecution, Oswald was on the sixth -floor, fired at the Presidential limousine, not as the automobile -approached the building, when the automobile came extremely close to -the building, so close that possibly even with that weapon one could -have shot occupants of the automobile from that window--but it is -alleged that Oswald never shot--it is now alleged that Oswald never -shot when the automobile was right outside of the building, but fired -when the automobile was some 75 yards beyond the building, when the -first shot was fired. - -Then Oswald walked the entire floor--or ran--the entire floor of the -warehouse to the rear of the building, placing the rifle in between -some boxes, but visible, so that one can see it when one arrives on -the floor; went to the rear stairs, walked down the four flights to -the second floor, then to the front of the building again, where he -purchased a Coca-Cola--made no effort to leave the building at that -time, evidently was going to wait until the building was surrounded by -police before leaving. - -He stayed at the top of the stairs near the Coke machine long enough so -that a police officer could come up and place a pistol near him, and -Roy Truly, the director, then intervened indicating that Mr. Oswald was -employed at the building at that time, and the officer then went on to -do other things in the building, including later on, I believe, to find -the rifle, if it was the same officer. - -Mr. Truly stated that Oswald was quite calm when the officer approached -him on the stairs. He said although he did seem a little concerned -about that pistol being stuck at him--but otherwise he seemed quite -calm at that time. - -Well---- - -Representative FORD. Where was this statement made, or testimony given? - -Mr. LANE. By Truly? - -Representative FORD. Yes. - -Mr. LANE. This was reported very widely in probably dozens or scores -of newspapers. The New York Times carried that, as did many other -publications--direct quotations from Truly who was interviewed. - -Then the next thing we heard from the prosecution in their opening or -closing statement to the television cameras, after Oswald was killed -was that--the next we hear of Oswald he was on a bus. Well, if Oswald -boarded the bus where the busdriver claims he did, then Oswald walked a -distance, in order to secure a bus which is going to take him directly -back to the Book Depository Building, which one would think he was -trying to flee after assassinating the President. - -I would refer you to his story by Hugh Ainsworth in the Dallas Morning -News published during the first week after the assassination. Hugh -Ainsworth and Larry Grove published on November 28 in the Dallas -Morning News--this is headed "Oswald Planned To Ride By Scene"--in -which there are statements from the busdriver that--named C. J. -McWatters, in which Mr. McWatters indicates that Oswald entered the bus -at Elm and Griffin, and further indicates that the bus was going to -go seven blocks further west and turn at Houston Street, exactly the -scene of the assassination, or at least the scene of the Texas Book -Depository. So Oswald traveled somehow some seven blocks in order to -secure a bus which is going to take him back to the place that he left. - -Now, although I have talked to Mr. Ainsworth, and he tells me that the -story is absolutely correct, and he questioned Mr. McWatters quite -thoroughly, and he will so testify, I believe, if he is asked--Mr. -Ainsworth will--and the affidavit which Mr. McWatters signed, or which -the busdriver signed, he does not state that Oswald walked seven blocks -and was going to get on a bus which was going to take him back. Indeed, -he states that he picked him up about Elm and Houston Street, at the -Book Depository Building. But the busdriver indicates that that story -in his affidavit is not true. He indicated that after the affidavit was -drawn and signed by him. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you say was not true, Mr. Lane--which part of it? - -Mr. LANE. The affidavit. Mr. McWatters indicates that the affidavit in -which--let me start that again. - -There is an affidavit from the busdriver, which I am sure you have, -which shows that according to his statement Oswald came into the bus -at Elm and Houston Street. However, the busdriver since that time has -indicated that Oswald came into the bus seven blocks from Elm and -Houston Street, and had entered a bus which was going to take him -to Elm and Houston Street. Elm and Houston Street of course is the -location of the Book Depository Building. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, when you say since that time he has indicated that, -you mean to you or to someone else? - -Mr. LANE. To those two reporters for the Dallas Morning News with whom -I discussed--one of them--I discussed this specifically. And he said -that every word in that story is absolutely accurate, that he went to -see the busdriver, and had a prolonged interview with him, and went -over this in great detail with him. I think these two reporters will -testify as to what the busdriver told them in their interview with him. - -Mr. RANKIN. But they have not published this later story that you are -telling about. - -Mr. LANE. Yes, they have. That is the date that I gave you. The Dallas -Morning News, on Thursday, November 28, under the headline "Oswald -Planned To Ride By Scene". - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you want to leave that with us? - -Mr. LANE. I wonder if copies can be made of everything. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mr. LANE. Then I will be happy to leave it. - -Mr. RANKIN. The story you were just referring to in the Dallas Morning -News is Commission Exhibit 343. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 343 for -identification and received in evidence.) - -Mr. LANE. That's correct. - -Well, now, Oswald allegedly had shot the President and has walked some, -talked to an officer, was calm, walked some seven blocks to find a bus -which was going to take him back to where he left, and then got off and -got--entered into a taxi after he had walked some two blocks from where -he left the bus. And this taxi he entered of course a minute before the -President was shot, if the taxi driver's log is accurate--after Oswald -had done all these things, after allegedly shooting the President and -the Governor. - -Then the taxi driver drove him directly past his own home, according to -the statement and--past Oswald's Dallas rooming house, until he arrived -at a scene about a half a mile beyond Oswald's house, where Oswald then -left the taxi, and then walked or ran home to secure a jacket--leaving -behind, although one would assume he is now giving considering to -escaping, the $150 in the dresser drawer, and taking just his jacket -with him. - -Mr. RANKIN. Which dresser drawer? - -Mr. LANE. This is in Dallas. - -Mr. RANKIN. Not at the Paine's? - -Mr. LANE. Not at the Paine's. I do not know if there was money at the -Paine's, but if he had money there, he left that behind the night -before, knowing he was going to---- - -Mr. RANKIN. But the $150 you are speaking of was in his rooming house -at Dallas. - -Mr. LANE. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any affidavit or information in support of that -statement about the $150? - -Mr. LANE. I do not have an affidavit. I have the statement of a -reporter who was told that--he was told this by a police officer who -was present when the money was found in the Dallas rooming house. I -have his statement. I can again ask for his permission to release that. - -Mr. RANKIN. Would you do that, please. - -Mr. LANE. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Mr. Chairman--perhaps it has been done, but I think it -would be proper in all cases in which he has referred to conversations -that he has had with individuals who made statements to him about some -aspect of this matter, and whose names he has not identified, that if -he could give to the Commission in all of those cases the names of the -individuals who gave him this information. - -Mr. LANE. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. I mean at sometime--don't you think? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes, sir, it would be very helpful. - -Mr. LANE. Yes, sir. I think there are only two occasions where I -indicated I had to check the source, and one is the name of the rifle -association board member whose name I will be happy to give to you, but -I just do not recall it--my office has that. - -Senator COOPER. I did not remember that you gave the name of this -individual who told you that some policeman had told him that he had -been present when the $150 was found. - -Mr. LANE. Yes; that is one. - -Senator COOPER. Did you give that name? - -Mr. LANE. No; I did not give that name. - -Mr. RANKIN. You said you were going to ask him his permission. - -Mr. LANE. Yes; that's correct. - -Then Oswald took a taxi, which took him approximately a half mile -beyond his own house, his own room in Dallas, and he either walked or -ran back to get his jacket--although it was a very warm day in Dallas. -That day Mrs. Kennedy said later on that, reviewing the moment before -the President was shot--she said she saw this overpass ahead and looked -forward to being under it for a moment because there would be some -brief shade to protect them from the powerful sun that day. - -Well, Oswald ran home to get his jacket. He left the house, saw -a police car parked, went up to the police car, according to the -affidavit of Mrs. Markham, leaned on the car, and when the officer -came out, he shot him to death, and then he went to the movies. And in -the movies, and just before he went into the Texas Theatre, he was so -extremely agitated that a gentleman on the outside of the theatre--I -think his name is John Brewer--I am not certain--you have that -affidavit, I am sure--indicated that Oswald was acting very agitated, -the cashier made the same statement, and changing from seat to seat. -The police were called and he was arrested. - -Of course, one would wonder why Oswald, who might have thought that -he had made his getaway while in the Texas Theatre unobserved, would -become so extremely agitated, when just a moment after he allegedly -shot the President and the Governor, with the policeman charging up the -stairs, pointing a pistol at him, about to arrest him for these two -terrible crimes, he was calm, according to Mr. Truly, but he became -agitated only when he thought he had secured his getaway. - -I think those of us who saw, as we all did, I guess, Oswald on -television in his brief appearance would conclude that he seemed, even -while in custody and charged with these two crimes, somewhat calm under -the circumstances--calm when charged with the assassination, calm a -moment after killing the President, when a policeman pointed a pistol -at him, but agitated only in the theatre, and just before going to the -theatre when he might have concluded that he was then in the clear. - -I would just like to conclude on this note. - -I hope the Commission will give consideration to my request, which the -Commission has answered, but which again I would like at this time to -renew. That is, that I be permitted, at the request of Mrs. Oswald, -the mother of the accused defendant, really, before this Commission's -hearing, to represent his interests here, to have access to the -material which you have access to, and the right to present witnesses. - -It is not usual for an attorney representing a party to be given an -opportunity to testify, which is quite unusual--but rather to be given -the opportunity to present witnesses and to cross-examine them. It has -generally been my role in criminal cases. Never before have I testified -in behalf of a client. - -If it is the Commission's position that this is not a trial in any -respect, and therefore Oswald is not entitled to counsel, that is the -position with which I would like to respectfully offer a dissent. - -The fact that Oswald is not going to have a real trial flows only from -his death, and he is not responsible with that having taken place. -Every right belonging to an American citizen charged with a crime was -taken from him up to and including his life. - -I think now that that episode is completed, hopefully never to reappear -ever again in our history, or anything close to it--I think it would -be proper to permit him to have counsel before the Commission, counsel -who can function on his behalf in terms of cross-examining evidence and -presenting witnesses. If it is the Commission's position now that he is -entitled to counsel, and the Commission will appoint counsel, then I -ask the Commission to consider that the Constitutional right to counsel -involves the right to counsel of one's choice, or in the event of the -death of a party, to counsel of the choice of the surviving members of -the family. - -If Marina Oswald, the widow, sought to have counsel represent her -husband I would think--here--I would think that would cause a conflict -and a problem, if the widow and also the mother made the same request. -But as I understand it no request has been made by the widow, who -has indicated to the press that she believes her husband is guilty, -and through her former business agent, Mr. Martin, who I am told -was secured for her by the Secret Service as a business agent, she -indicated that even a trial which might prove he was innocent, she -would still be sure he was guilty, and has indicated since that time -no desire to my knowledge to secure counsel for her husband, her late -husband, before the Commission. - -I think, then, the mother would, in almost any jurisdiction, be the -next person to make a decision in this area, and the mother has made a -decision, as you know. She has retained me to represent the rights and -interests of her son. - -I think under those circumstances it would be proper for the Commission -to permit me to participate. - -This, of course, is not a jury trial. With all due respect to the -integrity and background of each of the members of the Commission, -I suggest that it is not the function of the trying body to appoint -counsel, or the jury to appoint counsel, but in our society it is just -the reverse; it is the function of defense counsel to participate in -determining who the jury should be. - -Many criminal lawyers, very noted counsel, would probably seek to -excuse certain--and again no disrespect at all is meant to the -background of members of this Commission--but defense counsel generally -seeks to excuse as jurors those who are in any way associated with -the Government in a criminal case. And here we have the Government -appointing the jury, and then the jury picking counsel, who also is -Government connected at this time. I in no way wish to raise the -question of the integrity of any of the members of the Commission -or counsel or anyone else, or their ability. But that truism about -equality has some meaning in terms of impartiality--everyone is -impartial to some people, and more impartial to other people. And -counsel, in order to function, I believe, must be totally independent -and totally committed to the responsibility of representing his client. - -But above all, he must be secured by someone who has the ability to -speak for the deceased, in this case his mother and his wife. And under -those circumstances, I renew my request that I be permitted to, at the -request of Lee Oswald's mother, who survives him--to function before -this Commission as counsel on his behalf. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Lane, I must advise you that the Commission, as you -already know, has considered your request and has denied it. It does -not consider you as the attorney for Lee Oswald. Now, this is not for -any discussion. We are not going to argue it. You have had your say, -and I will just answer. - -Lee Oswald left a widow. She is his legal representative. She is -represented by counsel. This Commission is cooperating with her in -any way she may request. If anyone else wants to present any evidence -to this Commission, they may do so. But it is the view and the -wish--the will of the Commission--that no one else shall be entitled to -participate in the work and the deliberations of the Commission. - -We asked you to come here today because we understood that you did have -evidence. We are happy to receive it. We want every bit of evidence -that you have. You may present anything that you wish to us. But you -are not to be a participant in the work of the Commission. I assume you -have some questions you would like to ask Mr. Lane, Mr. Rankin? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes, sir. Do you have any affidavits that you would like -to submit to the Commission? I understood at one time you had some -affidavits. - -Mr. LANE. Well, I do have some affidavits. They are not originals--they -are photostatic copies of affidavits taken by the Dallas police and -on file in the Dallas district attorney's office. Now--including the -paraffin test which I made reference to. - -Now, if the Commission does not have copies of those, I would like to -be so informed and I will see what I can do. I assume the Commission -has copies of all those documents. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. Do you have anything beyond that that you care to -submit? - -Mr. LANE. I have the various statements which I have made reference to -from Mrs. Hill and Mrs. Markham, Mr. Klein, Mr. Ryder. But I have given -you the essence of those statements. If you are interested in pursuing -that, I think it might be best to call them. - -Mr. RANKIN. I am interested if there was anything beyond what you have -given us, Mr. Lane. And if you say you have given us the substance, -then I take it that is complete as far as it could be of assistance to -us, except our going directly to the witness. Is that what you have in -mind? - -Mr. LANE. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, do you have any witnesses that you would like to -present for the Commission? - -Mr. LANE. Well, I would like--I do not know that I would be able to do -that, frankly. - -Mr. RANKIN. Well, would you have any that you suggest that we should -interview, bring before the Commission, that you have not presented up -to this time in your testimony? - -Mr. LANE. No; there is no one who I know of other than those names I -have given, and two other persons whose permission I am going to have -to secure in reference to other matters, and hopefully they will be -willing to not only allow their names to be used, but to come forward -and testify, if you wish to hear them. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, is there any documentary evidence beyond which you -have submitted that you would like to submit to the Commission? - -Mr. LANE. Not beyond what I have submitted or made reference to. - -Mr. RANKIN. In regard to the paraffin that you have referred to, do -you have any particular materials or anything you want to refer the -Commission to? - -Mr. LANE. To that particular test taken by Mr. Anderson on November 23d? - -Mr. RANKIN. Anything beyond that? - -Mr. LANE. No; not at this time. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, I understand at one time you referred to some meeting -in the Carousel Club a week or so before the assassination. Do you have -any material on that or any information? - -Mr. LANE. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is there anything you would care to present to the -Commission? - -Mr. LANE. Yes. I have been informed--and this is the source I will have -to check with again in order to secure his testimony---- - -Mr. RANKIN. You will advise us if you are permitted to. - -Mr. LANE. Yes. But I can tell you the substance--that a meeting took -place on November 14, 1963, in the Carousel Club between Officer Tippit -and Bernard Weissman, Mr. Weissman being the gentleman who placed a -full-page advertisement in the Dallas Morning News which was printed on -November 22, asking a series of questions of President Kennedy. It was -addressed "Welcome to Dallas, President Kennedy. Why have you traded -the Monroe Doctrine for spirit of Moscow. Why has Gus Hall and the -Communist Party endorsed your 1964 election" and such matter. I think -these two give a rather clear indication of the kind of advertisement -that it was. And I have been informed that Mr. Weissman and Officer -Tippit and a third person were present there. I have been given the -name of the third person. But for matters which I will make plain to -the Commission, I will be pleased to give you the name of the third -person as given to me, but not in the presence of the press. I would -rather do that in executive session--that one piece of testimony. - -The CHAIRMAN. That is satisfactory to do that, if you wish. - -Mr. LANE. Thank you, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is there anything else about that incident that you know -and want to tell the Commission at this time? - -Mr. LANE. No. - -The CHAIRMAN. That is the entire story, is it? - -Mr. LANE. That they were there for more than 2 hours conferring--these -three persons. - -The CHAIRMAN. Your information does not--is not to the effect as to -what they were conferring on. - -Mr. LANE. No; they did not hear that. - -Mr. RANKIN. I am not suggesting, Mr. Lane, that you have been selective -about what you have told the Commission and what you have not told, but -I do wish to make the inquiry as to whether there is any information -you might have that the Commission should be informed of as to other -people that you might have interviewed in regard to this matter. - -Mr. LANE. I have given the Commission at this time everything that I -know. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is there anything about the palm prints that you can tell -us in addition to what you have given us? - -Mr. LANE. Not in addition to what I have said. - -Mr. RANKIN. Well, I will ask you generally--is there anything in -addition to what you have said that you would like to tell the -Commission at this time that has any bearing upon this investigation? - -Mr. LANE. All I can say in reference to that, Mr. Rankin, is that I -am practically engaged in this project by myself, which means I am -extremely limited. This is not my profession--investigator. I am an -attorney. And there are many leads which I have followed, which have -led me nowhere at all, obviously. Before finding Mrs. Markham or before -finding Mrs. Hill, there were many other persons I talked to who were -not even present, who I have heard were present. But there are still -large numbers, probably at this point hundreds of leads which I have -heard of, and which I have not yet been able to trace or to check -through. I do not think it would be constructive just to tell you all -of the things I have heard, because most of them are patently untrue, -and they just require a great deal of work. But I will continue to do -that, and should I come across any material which might in any way -interest you, I will certainly either write to you for the purpose of -presenting it to you through the mail in affidavit form, if you prefer, -or indicate that I will be available to come and testify again if you -prefer that. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Lane, your client, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, when she -was testifying before us, told us that she had sold some pictures to -the press and she wanted the originals of all the pictures that she -presented to us, because she said they were of great financial value to -her. Do you know what sales she has made concerning pictures such as -you have shown us? - -Mr. LANE. In terms of the picture with the rifle, you mean, for example? - -The CHAIRMAN. Well, we might start with that. - -Mr. LANE. She has never seen such a picture, she has informed me, of -Lee Harvey Oswald with the rifle--except after they had been published. -She never had any knowledge of such pictures, and had never seen them. - -I do not really represent Marguerite Oswald. She has retained me to -represent the interests of her son. And so in her business dealings in -terms of her sale of pictures and articles, I have not represented her. -I believe she has a literary agent or perhaps even another lawyer--I -don't know. But she has retained me to represent her son's interests, -not to represent her at all. - -The CHAIRMAN. I see. - -Mr. LANE. Of course, we have conferred. But I do not have that -information. - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr Lane, I have a further question. Have you ever been -prevented by any law enforcement officer from interviewing anyone -concerning this matter when you wished to? - -Mr. LANE. Well, I would say that I have been prevented by the -statements made by the law enforcement persons or agents to the -individual, that he should not talk to anyone about this case, that it -is a secret matter. As I have indicated, Mr. Klein---- - -Mr. RANKIN. You have described those cases, have you? - -Mr. LANE. I have also spoken to a reporter who is employed by a Dallas -newspaper, who informed me that he sought to question more than 150 in -the area, and that many of those persons informed him that they were -ordered by the FBI not to talk to anyone about this case, and that -almost none of the witnesses would talk with him about the case, and -that some of them, when he asked the reason that they were not talking -to him, it was "Was this because you have been told by the FBI?"--and -he indicated they were not even allowed to answer that question. But -many of them told him that the FBI or the Secret Service ordered them -not to talk. In no other respect have I been interfered with to my -knowledge. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you have the name of that reporter--can you reveal that -to us? - -Mr. LANE. I cannot reveal it at this time, but I am hopeful you will -permit me to. He is one of the reporters I referred to earlier. - -Mr. RANKIN. Thank you. - -The CHAIRMAN. Senator, do you have any questions? - -Senator COOPER. No; I have no questions. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rhyne. - -Mr. RHYNE. Mr. Chief Justice--I wanted to ask Mr. Lane, on his inquiry -about what happened to Oswald during the 48 hours he was under -detention--you suggested that the Commission make an inquiry into -whether his civil rights were denied. Do you have any information on -that subject? - -Mr. LANE. Yes. I saw what happened--I read in the newspapers and heard -on the radio. - -Mr. RHYNE. It looked to me that most of the material presented here -today was really in the newspapers. You are merely repeating what -someone else has said. - -Mr. LANE. I don't think that is an accurate characterization of my -testimony at all, sir. For example, I told you before of conversations -that I have had--I know you listened intently--I told you of -conversations that I had with Mr. Klein. I told you of conversations -I had with Miss Hill, who is probably the closest eyewitness to the -assassination, with Miss Woodward, who is perhaps the second or third -closest witness to the assassination, with Dial Ryder, with at least -two or three other persons. - -Mr. RHYNE. But on this one point, with respect to denial of any civil -rights or protection of civil rights during this 48-hour period, you -say that is all in the newspaper stories? - -Mr. LANE. No. What I meant by that response was that the basic denial -that I was discussing was the development of the case publicly against -him, so that it would be impossible in securing a jury panel to secure -12 jurors probably anywhere in this country who had not reached a -conclusion, first of all. And secondly, obviously the death of the -accused, which I know is a matter for the Commission's inquiry already. - -Mr. RHYNE. I notice that you said your investigation was incomplete. So -I just wanted to be sure that I understood what you meant with respect -to this 48-hour detention period. - -Mr. LANE. No; I have no knowledge over and above that that I could give -you in that area. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Murray, do you have any questions you would like to -ask? - -Mr. MURRAY. No; I have none, Mr. Chief Justice, at this time. - -The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mr. Lane, if any evidence should come to your -attention in the future, would you be willing to convey the information -to the Commission? - -Mr. LANE. Yes; I certainly would, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. We will appreciate it if you would. Thank you for your -attendance. - -We will adjourn at this time. - -(Whereupon, at 5:35 p.m., the President's Commission adjourned, and -reconvened in executive session.) - - - - -TESTIMONY OF MR. LANE RESUMED IN EXECUTIVE SESSION - - -The CHAIRMAN. The session will be in order. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you proceed, Mr. Lane, in executive session now, to -describe the names? - -Mr. LANE. The third name that I was informed--the person that I was -informed was there, the third person, is named Jack Ruby. It was my -feeling, of course, while his case was pending it would not be proper -to comment on that in the presence of the press. - -Mr. RANKIN. You mean the third person in the group apparently -conferring? - -Mr. LANE. Yes. Tippit, Weissman, and Ruby. - -The CHAIRMAN. Have you made any public statement of this kind before on -this subject--about this meeting? - -Mr. LANE. Not about Ruby--about a meeting between Weissman and Tippit, -yes. - -The CHAIRMAN. But you never named Ruby publicly? - -Mr. LANE. No; I have not. I shall not. - -The CHAIRMAN. I see. Do you know any way by which we might corroborate -that meeting--the fact that it was held? - -Mr. LANE. I am going this evening to see, or tomorrow--I will try this -evening first--to see if I can secure permission by my informant to -reveal his name, and I hope he will be willing to come forward and -testify as to what took place. - -The CHAIRMAN. The Commission would like to know it, if you can do that. - -Mr. LANE. Yes; I shall inform you as soon as I discover that. I would -like very much for the Commission to have that information. Can I -indicate to my informant that the matter can be so raised so that his -name will not be known to anyone other than the Commission? - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir; you may. - -Mr. LANE. That will be extremely helpful. - -The CHAIRMAN. If you can think of any way that can be corroborated, it -would be most helpful to us. - -Mr. LANE. I understand. - -The CHAIRMAN. Congressman, you just got in as we are about to adjourn. -Mr. Lane was telling us of one piece of information that he had -concerning a meeting that was held at the Carousel Nightclub, about a -week, did you say---- - -Mr. LANE. Yes. - -The CHAIRMAN. About a week before the assassination, at which the man -who financed this full-page article in the paper, Dallas paper, this -morning, concerning President Kennedy, and Officer Tippit, and he told -us in private here--he didn't want to mention it before the press--Jack -Ruby. And he tells us that he will try to find out from his informant -more about that, and if he possibly can deliver the information to us. - -Senator COOPER. May I ask one question? - -I assume from what you have said you wouldn't be able to answer it, but -was there any reason ascribed for the presence of Tippit? - -Mr. LANE. My informant does not know the reason. - -Senator COOPER. Or Ruby, with Weissman? - -Mr. LANE. My informant does not know that information. - -Representative FORD. May I ask a question, Mr. Chief Justice? When did -this information come to your attention, Mr. Lane? - -Mr. LANE. Some weeks ago. - -Representative FORD. Do you consider the informant a reliable, -responsible person? - -Mr. LANE. Yes. I cannot vouch, of course, for the information -personally, but I believe the informant is a reliable and a responsible -person. - -Representative FORD. Would your informant be willing, as far as you -know--be willing to testify and give the Commission this information -directly? - -Mr. LANE. I am going to try to arrange that this evening. The Chief -Justice has indicated that his name would not be known if he did that, -and that I did not know that I could make that statement to him before -now. I hope that will be decisive. - -The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything further, gentlemen? - -If not---- - -Representative FORD. May I ask, Mr. Chairman, are we going to have a -schedule laid out, are we going to have a meeting of the Commission -where maybe we will know what the schedule is in the next week or 10 -days or 2 weeks? - -Mr. RANKIN. We have a draft now. - -The CHAIRMAN. We have a draft for you to see. - -Mr. LANE. Perhaps I should withdraw at this time. - -The CHAIRMAN. All right. - -Mr. Lane, thank you very much, sir. - -(Whereupon, at 5:45 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -_Monday, March 9, 1964_ - -TESTIMONY OF ROY H. KELLERMAN, WILLIAM ROBERT GREER, CLINTON J. HILL, -AND RUFUS WAYNE YOUNGBLOOD - -The President's Commission met at 9:10 a.m. on March 9, 1964, at 200 -Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. - -Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman -Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, and Representative Gerald R. Ford, -members. - -Also present were Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Arlen Specter, -assistant counsel; Walter Craig and Charles Murray, observers; and Fred -Smith, Treasury Department. - - -TESTIMONY OF ROY H. KELLERMAN, SPECIAL AGENT, SECRET SERVICE - -The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, the Commission will be in order. Will you be -seated, please? - -Would you state the names of the witnesses who are to be heard today, -Mr. Specter? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, Your Honor; the witnesses are to be Roy Kellerman of -the Secret Service, William R. Greer of the Secret Service, Clinton -Hill, also of the Secret Service, and Rufus Youngblood, representative -of the Secret Service. - -The CHAIRMAN. Very well, gentlemen; you know the purpose of the -meeting, and we will call first, Mr. who? - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman is our first witness. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Kellerman. Gentlemen, I want to announce that today -it will be necessary for me to spend practically all of the morning -with the Supreme Court, and in my absence Congressman Ford will conduct -the hearing today because he can be here practically all the time. I -will be here in and out throughout the day, however. - -Congressman Ford, will you take over please? - -Representative FORD. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. - -The CHAIRMAN. Will you proceed? I believe the first thing is to swear -the witness. - -Mr. SPECTER. Very good, sir. - -Representative FORD. Do you promise to tell the truth, the whole truth, -so help you God? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I do, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. My name is Roy H. Kellerman. - -Mr. SPECTER. By whom are you employed, Mr. Kellerman? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I am employed as a special agent for the Secret Service. - -Mr. SPECTER. How old are you? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I am 48 years old. - -Mr. SPECTER. Married? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Pardon? - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you married? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; I am married and have two daughters; their -ages are 20 and 17. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where do you reside? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Bethesda, Md. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your current duty station with the Secret Service? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. My current duty station is assistant special agent in -charge of the White House detail. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been with the Secret Service? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. This is my 23d year. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you sketch in a general outline what your duties have -been with the Secret Service since the time you started with them, -please? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I was appointed an agent with the Secret Service in -Detroit, Mich., the 19th of December 1941. I was transferred to -Washington, D.C., the field office, on February 9, 1942. Prior to -that I had a 30-day assignment in the office of Cincinnati, Ohio, -temporarily. I worked in the Washington field office from the 9th of -February 1942 until the middle of March 1942, whereby I was temporarily -transferred to the White House detail. This transfer became permanent, -effective, I believe it was, the 17th of April or the latter part of -April in 1942, still as a special agent. - -At the White House detail we work on shifts around the clock, -protecting the President and his family. I was a member of one of -those three shifts. Presently, these shifts change on a two-weekly -basis, from 8 to 4, 4 to midnight, and midnight to 8. I remained on the -White House detail until February 7, 1951, when I was transferred to -Indianapolis, Ind. Prior to that time I had received enough seniority -whereby I grew up on this shift from the bottom to the top, and was in -charge of one of the shifts prior to my departure to Indianapolis. This -was fieldwork in Indiana. - -On February 1, 1955, I was transferred back to the White House detail. -On my return I was comparable to like, let's say, the No. 2 man of a -shift. I was not in charge of it. - -From 1955, I believe a couple of years later a vacancy occurred, a top -man of that shift left and I received his position. That title was -assistant to the special agent in charge. You at that time governed -each man on your shift. You were in charge of him. - -On October 1 of 1962 a vacancy was opened in the three top officials of -the White House detail, which are comprised of, let me say, the special -agent in charge, who has two assistants; one vacancy occurred. It was -the oldest man on the White House detail; it was given to me and that -is why today I have the title of assistant special agent in charge. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, since you brought us up to 1955, have your duties -remained the same since that time? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I should bring you up to 1964. In 1955, I was -transferred back to the White House detail, remained on that status on -shift work until 1962, whereas I am now an assistant special agent in -charge, which duties are the overseeing and the complete responsibility -of the entire White House detail. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your educational background, Mr.---- - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I am a high school graduate only. - -Mr. SPECTER. What year did you graduate from high school? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. 1933. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were your activities between graduation from high -school and the time you joined the Secret Service, please? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. In October of 1937 I completed the training with the -Michigan State Police. I was sworn in as a trooper. I remained with the -Michigan State Police until December 18, 1941, when I resigned and was -appointed to the U.S. Secret Service. - -Mr. SPECTER. How were you employed or occupied from the time of -graduation from high school until the time you joined the Michigan -State Police? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. 1933 there wasn't too much work; 1935 was my first work -with the Dodge Corp. of the Chrysler people in Detroit. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long did you work there, sir? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Three years, off and on. - -Mr. SPECTER. You described in a general way the organization of the -Secret Service on the White House protective detail. Who is the special -agent in charge? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Gerald A. Behn, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was he the special agent in charge back on November 22, -1963? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. He was. - -Mr. SPECTER. How many shifts are there? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Three shifts, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And approximately how many men are assigned to each shift? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Ten men on each shift, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were your specific duties back on November 22 of 1963? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. My specific duty, gentlemen, on the 22d of November of -1963, I was in charge of the detail for this trip of President Kennedy, -for the trip to Texas in those 2 days. - -Mr. SPECTER. How did you personally make the trip to Texas? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I rode on the President's plane on the entire tour. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline in a general way the times of departure -and arrival on the trip to Texas up until the morning of November 22, -please? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I just don't have the time we left Washington, D.C. - -Mr. SPECTER. Without the precise times; just in a general way. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. All right. We departed in the morning from Washington. -Our first stop was in San Antonio, Tex. - -Mr. SPECTER. Which morning was that, sir? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. It was November 21; it was at San Antonio, Tex., that -we picked up the then Vice President Johnson. The two people continued -on this tour of the State in separate planes. During our stay in San -Antonio, we then flew from San Antonio to Houston, Tex. There were -ceremonies there, and the program there which had been set up. From -Houston we flew into Fort Worth, Tex., where we remained overnight on -November 21. - -We arrived at the Texas Hotel, it was a little after 11 o'clock in the -evening. There were no activities until the following morning, November -22. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time did the activities start the following morning? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. On November 22, the activities started at around 8:25 in -the morning when the President, accompanied by the then Vice President -Johnson, and a few congressional leaders walked out the front door, -across this street which was a parking lot, and a few minutes' speech -was made to the gathering there. It was a light drizzle at the time. -From there we returned to the hotel and he attended a breakfast given -by the chamber of commerce and, I believe it was, a citizens group of -Fort Worth. On completion of the breakfast he returned to his suite. -The weather was then changing. It had quit raining and it looked -like it was going to break out and be a real beautiful day. In the -neighborhood of 10 o'clock in the morning I received a call from Mr. -Lawson, Special Agent Lawson, who had the advance from Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Lawson was with the Secret Service, was he? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; he is. He asked me to determine whether the -bubbletop car that the President would ride in in Dallas that day -should have the top down or remain up. - -Mr. SPECTER. Let me interrupt you there for just a minute, Mr. -Kellerman. I show you a photograph which has been marked as Commission -Exhibit No. 344. Are you able to identify that picture and the -automobile in that picture? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; this is the 1961 Lincoln Continental four-door -convertible bubbletop. It is a special car. - -Mr. SPECTER. For the purpose of the record, how many doors does that -car have? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. This vehicle has four doors. - -Mr. SPECTER. And in the posture of the picture identified as Commission -Exhibit 344, is the top up or down? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. The top is down, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what top does that automobile have? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. This top is a plastic top. From the rear of the -passenger all the way to the windshield there are four sections of -plastic glass. The one that comes over the top of the passengers in the -back seat, two little sections that come over the two doors, and one -over the driver and passenger in the front seat. - -Mr. SPECTER. In what way is that attached, if any, to the car? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Securely bolted, screwed. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chairman, may I ask that the Exhibit 344 be introduced -formally in evidence, please? - -Representative FORD. It will be so admitted. - -(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 344 for -identification and received in evidence.) - -Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 345. -Are you able to tell us what that depicts? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; this is the same vehicle as mentioned in 344. -The difference being the top is up and there is a covering, a cloth -covering that also fits over this plastic top. - -Mr. SPECTER. And Exhibit No. 345 is taken from what angle, Mr. -Kellerman? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. From the rear, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. As contrasted with Exhibit No. 344, which is taken from -what angle? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. This is from the right side. - -Mr. SPECTER. I ask that Exhibit 345 be introduced, if the Commission -please. - -Representative FORD. So admitted. - -(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 345 for -identification and received in evidence.) - -Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 346, -Mr. Kellerman, and ask you if you can tell us what that depicts. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. This picture depicts the interior of this same -automobile. It has a rear solid seat; there are two other jump seats -that can be folded forward in the rear and the complete solid front -seat for the driver and passenger. This is the same vehicle. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe what, if anything, is present between -the front seat and the rear seat area? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. This metal partition that is erected in back -of the driver, between the driver and the passengers in the rear seat, -is a metal framework that goes over the car. It has four holes in it. -These holes are utilized by the President for parades. As an example, -say it was used in Washington where you had an official visitor, and in -using one of the streets here as your parade route, he and his guest -would stand in this car where the people could view them a little -better than sitting in the rear seat. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where is that metal bar positioned with respect to the -front seat? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. It is positioned over the front seat; the top of this -bar would be 4 or 5 inches over my head. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is it directly over the back portion of the front seat? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. Directly over the front seat. - -Mr. SPECTER. And you describe it as 4 or 5 inches over your head. Can -you give us an estimate of the distance above the top of the front seat? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Oh, I am guessing in the neighborhood of 15, 18 inches. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is the width of that metal bar? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. The bar, 4 to 6 inches, I would say. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you tell us approximately how wide the automobile -itself is? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I can't. - -Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the automobile, are there any running -boards? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. There are no running boards. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is there any place on the car where someone can stand up -and ride as it proceeds in motion? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; on the rear of the vehicle, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. How many such positions are there? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. There is a step on each side of the spare tire, one man -on each one. - -Mr. SPECTER. And is there any facility for holding on with a man riding -in those positions? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; there is a metal arm erected on the trunk -where a man can hold on while standing on the rear of the car. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. - -May it please the Commission, I move that Exhibit 346 be introduced in -evidence. - -Representative FORD. It will be so admitted. - -(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 346 for -identification and received in evidence.) - -Mr. SPECTER. With reference to the bubble top which you have heretofore -described, of what is that composed? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. It is composed of plastic, clear plastic substance. -Its use would be for a weather matter whereby the President or his -occupants can see out. It is not an enclosed car. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is it bulletproof? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. It is not bulletproof. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is it bullet resistant in any way? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. It's not bullet resistant. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could you describe in a general way at this point what -efforts, if any, have been made to obtain a bulletproof clear top for -the President's automobile? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Presently? - -Mr. SPECTER. Presently or heretofore. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to have to go in the present day. - -Mr. SPECTER. Fine. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. This same vehicle, I understand, is being completed with -a bullet-resistant top and sides. - -Representative FORD. Can you explain the difference between bullet -resistant and the existing kind of the top? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I can't; I really can't. I have been behind on this -thing and I am at a loss for a better answer. - -Representative FORD. Could the present top deflect in any way, destroy -the accuracy of a shot? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. This would be a guess, Mr. Congressman. I would think -that it would be deterred for, let's say, the velocity of a missile -coming in at great speed, I think it would deter it; I don't think it -would eliminate--it still would enter the top. - -Representative FORD. The vehicle. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I am sure; yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. But as far as you know the top that was available -would not impede the projectile? Do you know whether or not it would -deflect its accuracy? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, I have tried to study that, sir. The angle of -the back as an example which is, what degree I don't recall, hoping -that--of course, it was now known to be an upshot into the vehicle -hoping that it would deter its force and so forth, but I really don't -know. I kind of doubt it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, in describing the top as being not -bulletproof and not bullet resistant, state whether you are describing -the top which they are currently working on or the top which was -present at the time of November 22, 1963? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is the top that they are currently working on. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, as to the bubble top which accompanied this car on -November 22, 1963, was that bulletproof or bullet resistant? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. It was not; neither. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not an effort is being made at the -present time to develop a bullet-resistant or bulletproof top. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes sir; it is. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you personally familiar with the progress of that -effort? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I am not, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how the President's automobile was transported -from Washington, D.C., to Texas? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. The President's vehicle was transported to San -Antonio by cargo aircraft. It was flown to San Antonio a day before the -President arrived. It was then flown from San Antonio to Dallas, where -it was used on November 22. This vehicle was not used in the other two -stops at Houston and Fort Worth. - -Representative FORD. When you say cargo aircraft---- - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Like a C-130, sir. - -Representative FORD. A Government? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. You are right, sir; that is right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, what were the President's activities, if -you know immediately prior to the time he departed from Fort Worth? - -Senator COOPER. Might I ask just one question? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Do you know whether or not prior to November 22 the -President's car had ever been equipped with a top which had the -capacity to stop or deflect a bullet? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Never had been, Senator. - -Senator COOPER. There was none in existence? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, what were the President's activities -immediately before departing from Fort Worth on the morning of November -22? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. First he walked from the hotel across the street, spoke -to a group that were in a parking lot, with other congressional people -there in Texas. From there he walked right into the hotel and entered -the ballroom where a breakfast was held, given to him by the chamber of -commerce and, I believe, the citizens group in Fort Worth. - -From there he returned to his suite because there was time left before -his departure for Dallas. It was up there in the neighborhood of 10 -o'clock in the morning that Special Agent Lawson called me from Dallas -asking me to verify whether the top should be put on--should remain -on the President's car or should be taken off due to the change of -weather. It had been raining slightly in Dallas at that time. I said, -"One moment and I will check with you one way or the other." - -As I said earlier, the weather was clearing in Fort Worth; it was going -to be a nice day. I asked Mr. Kenneth O'Donnell, who is President -Kennedy's appointment secretary: "Mr. O'Donnell," I said, "the -weather; it is slightly raining in Dallas, predictions of clearing up. -Do you desire to have the bubbletop on the President's car or do you, -or would you desire to have it removed for this parade over to the -Trade Mart?" - -His instructions to me were, "If the weather is clear and it is not -raining, have that bubbletop off," and that is exactly what I relayed -to Mr. Lawson. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, at about what time did President Kennedy depart from -Fort Worth? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. We were airborne from Fort Worth at 11:20 in the morning. - -Mr. SPECTER. In what plane were you airborne? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. In the President's special plane, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive in that plane in Dallas? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. We arrived in Dallas, Love Field, at 11:40 a.m. - -Mr. SPECTER. Describe in a general way what President Kennedy's -activities were at Love Field, please. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Very well. May I add this: Again I said there were two -planes in this program. The then Vice President Johnson would be in -a separate plane. He would land ahead of us by a minute or two, all -right. He is in Dallas by the time we arrive at 11:40 a.m. As we are -spotted on the apron at Love Field and when the ramp is pulled forward, -the Vice President, then Vice President Johnson and Mrs. Johnson, -together with a selected group of people would form a reception -committee from the end of the ramp straight out to where the motorcade -was in place. - -At 11:40, as I said, the President and Mrs. Kennedy left that plane, -met these people. As we finished greeting these folks here, there was -an elderly lady wheeled up in a wheelchair; her name I do not know; the -both of them met her. By this time the people are starting to get in -their automobiles for this trip into town. The President then noticed -that there was quite a gathering of people at this airport in back of a -fenced area, and, with her, they both walked over to this crowded area -and started shaking hands and greeting these people who had been there -perhaps some time before we got in. - -Mr. SPECTER. By "her", who do you mean, sir? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Mrs. Kennedy; I am sorry. - -Mr. SPECTER. What would you estimate the crowd to be? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. In the thousands; I would say there were two, three, -four thousand people there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long did the greeting of the crowd at -Love Field last, Mr. Kellerman? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Fifteen minutes. The motorcade left Love Field at 11:55. - -Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how many cars were there in that motorcade? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. At least 15. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the first car in line? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. The first car in line, sir, was what we call the police -pilot car. The duties of these police officers in that car--they would -drive ahead. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you personally know who was in that car? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. How far ahead of the regular motorcade were they to be? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. They could be several blocks ahead of us. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is the general purpose of that pilot car? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. The purpose of that pilot car is to clear the roadway -and instruct the officers along the route that the President is in -motion and coming in back of them. Next you will find a small group of -motorcycles. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how many motorcycles there were in Dallas on -that day? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I don't. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you tell us what the custom is with respect to -motorcycles? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; those motorcycles that would be in back of -that police car were to assist any officers along the way in any -disturbance that they would run into before we got to that point, or -secondly, in the event that we needed them back on our car they could -be called, utilized. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is the next car in line? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. The next car is the lead car. That car on that day was -driven by Chief Curry of the Dallas Police Department. - -His occupants in that car was Special Agent Winston Lawson, who was -carrying a portable radio with him. Also in this car was Special Agent -in Charge Verne Sorrels, in charge of our Dallas office. The other -occupant, I believe, was a deputy sheriff. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was it Sheriff Decker, perhaps, of Dallas County? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. The name doesn't reach me, sir; I am sorry. - -Mr. SPECTER. You described a radio. Will you tell us a little more -fully what radio transmission there was in the motorcade, please? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. This lead car which Mr. Lawson was in has a -portable radio. The President's car is next. This is equipped with a -permanent set radio on the same frequency as that gentleman up front. -The next car is our Secret Service followup car which has a permanent -installation. The Secret Service car, as I say, is equipped with a -permanent installation which connects the President's car and the lead -car. The next car in back of our Secret Service car was the then Vice -President Johnson. The Secret Service agent in that car had a portable -radio that he could read all three of us ahead. His car following was a -small Secret Service followup car, and they, too, had a portable set, -which could read all four. - -So we had a net of five on our own frequency. In the police cars they -had their own city police frequency radios. - -Mr. SPECTER. How many frequencies were used by your own network? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. One. - -Representative FORD. Do you have an alternative frequency, emergency -frequency? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; we do. We have two of them. - -Mr. SPECTER. What automobile came behind the lead automobile? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. The President's car. - -Mr. SPECTER. Describe the occupants of that car, indicating their -positions, if you can, please. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. The President--President Kennedy sat on the right -rear seat. Next to him on the left seat was Mrs. Kennedy. On the right -jump seat in front of President Kennedy was Governor Connally. On the -left jump seat in front of Mrs. Kennedy was Mrs. Connally. I sat on the -right passenger seat of the driver's seat, and Special Agent William -Greer drove the vehicle. - -Mr. SPECTER. How far were you behind the lead car? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No more than two or three car lengths. - -Senator COOPER. What is that? I didn't hear it. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No more than two or three car lengths, Senator Cooper. - -Mr. SPECTER. What car immediately followed the President's car? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Our own Secret Service followup car. - -Mr. SPECTER. What kind of a car was that? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. This is a 1956 Cadillac, four-door touring car with the -top down. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was that also a special automobile flown in? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. This is a special automobile, flown in with the -President's car; yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who were the occupants of that car, indicating their -positions in the car? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. All during this ride in from Love Field Special Agent -Sam Kinney was the driver of this automobile. The assistant to the -Special Agent in Charge Emory Roberts was sitting in the front seat, -the passenger side. This car has running boards. Standing on the front -of the left running board was Special Agent Clinton Hill. In back of -him on the rear of that same running board on that side was Special -Agent William McIntyre. On the right running board standing forward was -Special Agent John Ready, and standing in back of him on the rear of -the right running board was Special Agent Paul Landis. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did that automobile have jump seats? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. This automobile has jump seats. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what people occupied the jump seats? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. It was occupied by Mr. Kenneth O'Donnell, who was the -appointment secretary of President Kennedy, and Mr. Dave Powers. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know which sat on which side? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. O'Donnell sat on the left; Mr. Powers sat on the -right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who was in the back seat of that automobile? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. The back seat of that automobile on the right side was -Special Agent George Hickey, and on the left side Special Agent Glen -Bennett. - -Mr. SPECTER. How were the special agents in the followup car armed, if -at all? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Each agent carries his own gun. This is a 4-inch -revolver on their person. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would that apply to you and Mr. Greer as well? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Absolutely. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other arms in the President's followup car? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; in this followup car we have what is now known -as an AR-15. This is a rifle, and it is on all movements; this vehicle -is out of the case; it won't be shown; it could be laying flat on the -floor, but she is ready to go. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, how far behind the President's car did the -Presidential followup car follow? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Not knowing how far it was behind, I would say, from the -practice of that driver that he has, five feet would be a maximum. - -Mr. SPECTER. What car was in the motorcade immediately behind the -President's followup car? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That was Vice President Johnson's car then. - -Mr. SPECTER. What kind of a car was that on that particular day? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. This was a Lincoln four-door Continental convertible. -This was a four-door car, with no top on it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is that a special car, also, or is that obtained on the -market? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. This is not a special car; it is a car that is on the -market. - -Mr. SPECTER. What car followed the Vice President's car? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. The car following his car was a police car. It was -driven by a member of the Dallas Police Force, or I just don't recall. -I am sorry. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have personal knowledge or detail of the occupants -of the Vice President's car? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who was present there? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Special Agent Rufus Youngblood sat in the front seat on -the right side. In back of him on the right side and the rear was the -then Vice President Johnson. Next to him was Mrs. Johnson, and next to -Mrs. Johnson was Senator Yarborough. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was Vice President Johnson seated on the right side or the -left side of the rear seat? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. On the right side, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were there jump seats in the Vice President's car? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the identity of the driver of the Vice -President's car? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who was that? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That was Mr. Hurchel Jacks. He is a Dallas police -officer. - -Mr. SPECTER. Might he be a Texas State police officer? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; you are right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the identity of all of the individuals in the -Vice President's followup car? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Not the driver. The agents, yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who were they, sir? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Special Agent Thomas L. Johns, Special Agent Warren -Taylor, and I believe that is all. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to indicate their precise positions? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, no. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, what car, if you know, followed the Vice President's -followup car? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That was car--as an example, car No. 1, which would be a -congressional car; the occupants I do not know at the present time. - -Mr. SPECTER. And behind that car, describe in a general way the balance -of the motorcade, if you will, please. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. All right. The balance of the motorcade, the back -of that car No. 1 which would be the congressional people would be -two press cars, one covering the wire people, and one would be the -photographic group. Then you would have a series of guest cars, and -then a press bus. And then a police car followup, bringing up the -entire motorcade. - -Mr. SPECTER. You described the motorcycles which followed the pilot -car. Were there any other motorcycles in the motorcade? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; we had four other motorcycles opposite the -back wheel of the President's vehicle, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were those on both sides or on each side? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. On each side; two on each side. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other motorcycles in the balance of the -motorcade? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Not that I recall. - -Mr. SPECTER. At what speed did the motorcade proceed at the various -times en route, say, from Love Field down to the downtown section of -Dallas, Tex.? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. As we left Love Field, the driveway from this apron on -the field was sort of a winding thing, and there were many people that -gathered on the roadside to view him as they passed. I don't think -we traveled more than 12 to 15 miles until we left the airport apron -proper. - -Mr. SPECTER. Twelve to fifteen miles per hour? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Per hour. - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Then, as we were in the opening between there and the -city limits of Dallas, we could have gone 25 to 30. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the size of the crowd at that specific point? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Nothing in between then until we hit the outskirts of -the city. Of course, then you got into a residential, a school, area -where all the people were out on the curb line. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the speed when you reached that area? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Then we would reduce the speed down to 15 miles an hour. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the minimum speed traveled -until you reached the downtown area? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. We could have been going 25 to 30 at several times, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were the crowds like in the downtown area itself? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. A lot of people. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the speed of the motorcade when you came into the -downtown area? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. It would be reduced down to 10 to 15 miles an hour, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were there any unusual occurrences en route from Love -Field until, say, you got to the downtown area of Dallas, Tex.? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. As we were on the outskirts of this town and apparently -reaching a crowded area there were a group of youngsters on the right -side of the car curb-line-wise, that had a large sign, oh, perhaps the -width of the two windows there, that said, "Please, Mr. President, stop -and shake our hands," and he saw this and he called to the driver and -said, "Stop," he said, "call these people over and I will shake their -hands," which we did. The entire motorcade stopped. I got out of the -car and stood alongside of it while these people were right up on me. -The agents who were on the followup car, all around it. And then after -a few seconds he said, "All right; let's travel on." - -Mr. SPECTER. You say the agents in the followup car moved up at the -stopping? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Always, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Specifically, what did they do on that occasion? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. They crowded right in between the President, the car, -and the people. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did the President actually leave the car? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how long did that stop last? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. A matter of seconds. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other unusual occurrence en route to the -downtown area itself? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I can recall, however, one small affair. I think -we were in the heart of Dallas on this street when a young boy jumped -off the curb and apparently he was thinking of running over to the -President's car and shaking his hands when one of our people left the -followup car and put him back on the curb, and that all happened in -motion so there was nothing out of the way. - -Mr. SPECTER. I show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No. -347 and ask you if you are at this time able to tell us what that -photograph represents. - -The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, may I interrupt at this time to ask to -be excused? I have a session in the Supreme Court, but I will be back -later. - -Representative FORD. Thank you very much, Mr. Chief Justice. - -(Chief Justice Warren left the hearing room.) - -Mr. KELLERMAN. This is an aerial photo of the downtown parade. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to identify the street on which you proceeded -coming into the area depicted by that photograph? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. This is--this would be Main Street as we came -into the heart of Dallas. - -Mr. SPECTER. I think it might be helpful if we marked that as Main -Street if we can get a pencil or pen that will mark on that. - -Mr. CRAIG. May I suggest the witness mark it? - -Mr. SPECTER. I think it is a good idea. Will you mark the street which -you have identified as Main Street? - -(Witness marking.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you also mark---- - -Mr. KELLERMAN. We were traveling---- - -Mr. SPECTER. The street onto which you turned from Main Street? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. As we were coming up from Main Street or down, either -way. - -Mr. SPECTER. In what general direction were you proceeding on Main -Street? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. This was a westerly direction. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you put an arrow indicating which way is north on -the map? That is a general northerly direction on the map. - -(Witness indicating.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark an arrow on Main Street showing the -direction on which you were proceeding on Main? And how far did you -proceed on Main Street to what street? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Elm Street, sir. This is a very short block, maybe a -couple of hundred feet at the most. - -Mr. SPECTER. My question was to what street did you proceed on Main? -You then drove to what street? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Houston Street. - -Mr. SPECTER. Which way did you turn onto Houston Street? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Turned right, which would be north. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark the street that you have told us would be -Houston Street? - -(Witness indicating.) - -Mr. SPECTER. How far did you proceed down Houston Street? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I am sure it wasn't more than 200 feet at the most. It -was a real short block. - -Mr. SPECTER. What street then did you turn onto as you turned off of -Houston Street? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. From Houston we turned onto Elm, which was a rather -sharp turn with a downgrade, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was that a turn on the left or the right? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. To the left, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. I ask that Exhibit 347 be admitted in evidence, may it -please the Commission. - -Representative FORD. It will be admitted. - -Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit -No. 348, Mr. Kellerman, and I ask you if you are able at this time to -identify what building is in that picture? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. This building right straight ahead in the photo--I -couldn't have told you on the day of the 22nd of November what it was, -but as of now this is the Texas Depository Building. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is that the building known as the Texas School Book -Depository Building? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir. - -(The photograph marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 347 and 348 for -identification and received in evidence.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark on Exhibit 347--we have 348, we will get 348 -back in a moment. I would like to have you mark in the aerial shot the -precise location of that building with the initials "TS." - -(Witness marks.) - -Mr. SPECTER. For the written part of our record will you describe how -many stories high the Texas School Book Depository building is? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. This is a seven-story building. From here it appears to -be a rather square-type constructed. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. As you were proceeding in a generally northerly -direction on Houston Street, can you describe the layout of the street, -indicating first the approximate width of that street? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Houston Street is a rather wide city street similar to -anything we have here in Washington, really, and being in the heart of -the business section, I would say that it was a six-lane street at the -time. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was on your right as you proceeded down Houston -Street? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. The buildings. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how about on your left? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. On my left it was open. - -Mr. SPECTER. As you turned left onto Elm Street, will you describe what -was on your right? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. As we turned left onto Elm Street and left this building -that we are speaking of here---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Is that the Texas School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; then your area became clear. - -Mr. SPECTER. On the right? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. On the right, sir. This was an open field area with a -hill. Now, there were, if I recall correctly, just at the brink of -the hill, right beyond this building in question, there was a small -white--how can I describe it? - -Mr. SPECTER. A little park area? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. A little park area; that is right. And beyond it it was -all open. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was on your left at about that time as you proceeded -down Elm Street? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. As we turned left on Elm Street off Houston, -this, too, was a little plaza area, and kind of a triangular thing -where the street was on the opposite side; this is an apparently -one-way street, and directly to our left as we turned you had to view, -this looked like a little one-story plaza building or structure. - -Mr. SPECTER. To complete the scene, as you looked ahead of you down Elm -Street what, if anything, did you see immediately in front of you? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. First thing that I saw was that the road was going -to turn, and then a little further ahead we had a viaduct which we were -going under. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what name the Dallas Texans give to that -viaduct? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I really don't. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you heard it described since as the triple overpass? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I haven't. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the approximate width of Elm Street in lanes of -travel, if you recall? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. It is at least three lanes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And describe the terrain, whether it was smooth, level or -in what way you went as you went down Elm Street. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. As we went down Elm Street, there was a smooth road and -the terrain on each side was a grassy plotted area, a very cleared-off -area, visibility tremendous. - -Mr. SPECTER. And describe the composure of the crowds at that time. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. As we turned north on to Houston Street, this was -primarily the end of the crowd in Dallas, Tex.; in the downtown -section, there were still a few on the sidewalk until we got to Elm -Street. As we turned in a northerly direction to Elm Street, which -would be on our left, then the crowds just diminished. They were -spotty, standing on the grassy plot. They were not on the side of the -street. In fact, there were just a matter of a handful, that was all, -and we were through it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what time it was when you got to the -intersection of Houston and Elm on November 22? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Not at Houston and Elm; no. No; I don't. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the speed of the motorcade, Mr. Kellerman, as you -were proceeding down Main Street at about the time you turned right -onto Houston? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Ten, fifteen, no more; real parade speed. - -Mr. SPECTER. How far ahead of you was the lead car at that time? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Again, it was four or five car lengths in front. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how far behind you the President's followup -car was as you turned right onto Houston from Main Street? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I don't, but I am positive it was right on our rear -wheels. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. - -Now, as you turned left off Houston onto Elm, what is your best -estimate of the speed of the President's automobile at that time? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. As we turned onto Elm Street and the crowd, we were -through the section of Dallas; we might have had--the driver picked -it up because we were all through. Purely a guess, we could have been -going at the most 25. - -Mr. SPECTER. What would your estimate, your minimum estimate, of the -speed be? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Fifteen. - -Mr. SPECTER. As you turned left onto Elm Street, how far were you -behind the lead car at that point? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say the same; three to five car lengths, -but I can, to go a little further, I can see this car ahead of me. He -is not running away from us. - -Mr. SPECTER. How about the pilot car; was that car in sight? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No; that I didn't see; I didn't see it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know from your personal observation at the time you -turned left onto Elm Street how far the President's followup car was -behind you at that point? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Not from personal observation. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, describe what occurred as you proceeded -down Elm Street after turning off of Houston. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. As we turned off Houston onto Elm and made the short -little dip to the left going down grade, as I said, we were away -from buildings, and were--there was a sign on the side of the road -which I don't recall what it was or what it said, but we no more than -passed that and you are out in the open, and there is a report like a -firecracker, pop. And I turned my head to the right because whatever -this noise was I was sure that it came from the right and perhaps into -the rear, and as I turned my head to the right to view whatever it was -or see whatever it was, I heard a voice from the back seat and I firmly -believe it was the President's, "My God, I am hit," and I turned around -and he has got his hands up here like this. - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating right hand up toward his neck? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir. In fact, both hands were up in that -direction. - -Senator COOPER. Which side of his neck? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Beg pardon? - -Senator COOPER. Which side of his neck? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Both hands were up, sir; this one is like this here and -here we are with the hands---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the left hand is up above the head. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. In the collar section. - -Mr. SPECTER. As you are positioning yourself in the witness chair, your -right hand is up with the finger at the ear level as if clutching from -the right of the head; would that be an accurate description of the -position you pictured there? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. Good. There was enough for me to verify that the -man was hit. So, in the same motion I come right back and grabbed the -speaker and said to the driver, "Let's get out of here; we are hit," -and grabbed the mike and I said, "Lawson, this is Kellerman,"--this is -Lawson, who is in the front car. "We are hit; get us to the hospital -immediately." Now, in the seconds that I talked just now, a flurry of -shells come into the car. I then looked back and this time Mr. Hill, -who was riding on the left front bumper of our followup car, was on the -back trunk of that car; the President was sideways down into the back -seat. - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating on his left side. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Right; just like I am here. - -Mr. SPECTER. You mean, correct, left side? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Correct; yes, sir. Governor Connally by that time is -lying flat backwards into her lap--Mrs. Connally--and she was lying -flat over him. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who was lying flat over him? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Mrs. Connally was lying flat over the Governor. - -Mr. SPECTER. You say that you turned to your right immediately after -you heard a shot? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the reason for your reacting to your right? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That was the direction that I heard this noise, pop. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have a reaction as to the height from which the -noise came? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No; honestly, I do not. - -Representative FORD. Was there any reaction that you noticed on the -part of Greer when the noise was noticed by you? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. You are referring, Mr. Congressman, to the reaction to -get this car out of there? - -Representative FORD. Yes. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Congressman, I have driven that car many times, and -I never cease to be amazed even to this day with the weight of the -automobile plus the power that is under the hood; we just literally -jumped out of the God-damn road. - -Representative FORD. As soon as this noise was heard, or as soon as you -transmitted this message to Lawson? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. As soon as I transmitted to the driver first as I went -to Lawson. I just leaned sideways to him and said, "Let's get out of -here. We are hit." - -Representative FORD. That comment was made to Greer; not to Lawson? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; that is right. - -Representative FORD. And the subsequent message was to Lawson? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Correct. That is right. - -Mr. SPECTER. With relationship to that first noise that you have -described, when did you hear the voice? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. His voice? - -Mr. SPECTER. We will start with his voice. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. OK. From the noise of which I was in the process of -turning to determine where it was or what it was, it carried on right -then. Why I am so positive, gentlemen, that it was his voice--there is -only one man in that back seat that was from Boston, and the accents -carried very clearly. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, had you become familiar with the President's voice -prior to that day? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; very much so. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what was the basis for your becoming familiar with his -voice prior to that day? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I had been with him for 3 years. - -Mr. SPECTER. And had you talked with him on a very frequent basis -during the course of that association? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. He was a very free man to talk to; yes. He knew most -all the men, most everybody who worked in the White House as well as -everywhere, and he would call you. - -Mr. SPECTER. And from your experience would you say that you could -recognize the voice? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much, sir; I would. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, I think you may have answered this, but I want to -pinpoint just when you heard that statement which you have attributed -to President Kennedy in relationship to the sound which you described -as a firecracker. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. This noise which I attribute as a firecracker, when this -occurred and I am in the process of determining where it comes because -I am sure it came off my right rear somewhere; the voice broke in right -then. - -Mr. SPECTER. At about the same time? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct, sir. That is right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, did President Kennedy say anything beside, "My God, I -am hit." - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is the last words he said, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Kennedy say anything at that specific time? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, there was an awful lot of confusion in -that back seat. She did a lot of talking which I can't recall all the -phrases. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, pinpoint---- - -Mr. KELLERMAN. But after the flurry of shots, I recall her saying, -"What are they doing to you?" Now again, of course, my comparison of -the voice of her speech--certainly, I have heard it many times, and in -the car there was conversation she was carrying on through shock, I am -sure. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, going back to the precise time that you heard the -President say, "My God, I am hit," do you recollect whether she said -anything at that time? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Whether or not you can re-create what she said? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Not that I can recall right then, sir. This statement, -or whatever she said, happened after all the shooting was over. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, you have described hearing a noise which -sounded like a firecracker and you have described turning to your right -and described hearing the President's voice and, again, what was your -next motion, if any, or movement, if any? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. After I was sure that his statement was right that he -was hit, turned from the back I come right down---- - -Mr. SPECTER. You just indicated that you had turned to the left. Had -you turned to the left after hearing his voice? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; certainly. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did you see? You have described what you saw in -terms of position of his hands. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That was it. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is when I completely turned to my right and grabbed -for the mike in the same motion, sideways telling the driver, "Let's -get out of here; we are hit." - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you give us the best estimate of the lapse of -time from the instant you heard the sound which appeared to you to -be a firecracker until you instructed Mr. Greer in the way you have -described? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Seconds. - -Mr. SPECTER. How many seconds? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Three or four. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, how long did it take you to relay the instructions -which you have told us about to Special Agent Lawson; what your best -estimate would be? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Instant, in seconds again. Again it is three to five. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, in your prior testimony you described a flurry of -shells into the car. How many shots did you hear after the first noise -which you described as sounding like a firecracker? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, these shells came in all together. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to say how many you heard? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say two, and it was like a double -bang--bang, bang. - -Mr. SPECTER. You mean now two shots in addition to the first noise? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; yes, sir; at least. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the time, in seconds, from -the first noise sounding like a firecracker until the second noise -which you heard? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. This was instantaneous. - -Mr. SPECTER. No; let me repeat the question so I am sure you understand -it. From the time you first heard the noise coming to your right rear, -which you described as sounding like a firecracker, until you heard the -flurry of shots? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. This is about how long it took, sir. As I am viewing, -trying to determine this noise, I turned to my right and I heard the -voice and I came back and I verify it and speak to the driver, grab the -mike, these shots come in. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, you have described it as 3 to 4 seconds from the -time---- - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No more. - -Mr. SPECTER. From the time of the first noise--wait a minute--until you -gave the instruction to Mr. Greer and then as you made the statement -to Special Agent Lawson over the microphone that was an instantaneous -timespan as you have described it. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. How soon thereafter did the flurry of shots come? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. They came in, Mr. Specter, while I am delivering that -radio message. - -Mr. SPECTER. To Mr. Lawson. All right. Was there any timespan which -you could discern between the first and second shots and what you have -described as the flurry? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I will estimate 5 seconds, if that. - -Representative FORD. But this flurry took place while you were occupied -with these other activities; is that correct? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir. - -Representative FORD. You don't recall precisely a second shot and a -third shot such as you did in the case of the first? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Let me give you an illustration, sir, before I can give -you an answer. You have heard the sound barrier, of a plane breaking -the sound barrier, bang, bang? That is it. - -Representative FORD. This is for the second and the third, or the -flurry as you described it? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; that is right, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. On your 5-second estimate, was that in reference, Mr. -Kellerman, to the total timespan from the first noise until the flurry -ended? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; that is right. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, when the flurry occurred then, were you -still facing forward talking into the microphone to Lawson? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. Then precisely what was your next movement -after completing the delivery of that message to Lawson? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. When I completed the delivery of those instructions to -Lawson, I just hung up the receiver and looked back. - -Mr. SPECTER. To your right this time--to your left; pardon me. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. To my left; that is right. This is when I first viewed -Mr. Hill, who was on the back of the---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Precisely where was he in that instant? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Lying right across the trunk of the car with Mrs. -Kennedy on the left rear. Mr. Hill's head was right up in back of her. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you describe the left rear you mean as the car was -facing? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. As the car is traveling, sir; yes, sir. He was lying -across the trunk of this car, feet on this side. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was he flat across the trunk of the car? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Flat; that is right. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the position of Mrs. Kennedy's body at that time? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. She was sitting up in the corner of this back seat, like -this. - -Mr. SPECTER. So that she was on the buttocks area of her body at that -time? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what movement, if any, did you observe Mrs. Kennedy -make at that time? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I never did see Mrs. Kennedy leave that back seat, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say the back seat, are you referring---- - -Mr. KELLERMAN. The seat she was sitting on. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you referring to the seat itself of the automobile? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you look next; what did you observe following -that? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Then I observed how the President was lying, which -was--he was--flat in the seat in this direction. - -Mr. SPECTER. On his left-hand side? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. Governor Connally was lying straight on his -back with Mrs. Connally over him about halfway. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Governor Connally say anything up to this point? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Connally say anything up to that point? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. When was it that Mrs. Kennedy made the statement which you -have described, "My God, what are they doing?" - -Mr. KELLERMAN. This occurred after the flurry of shots. - -Mr. SPECTER. At that time you looked back and saw Special Agent Hill -across the trunk of the car, had your automobile accelerated by that -time? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Tremendously so; yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, to the best of your ability to recollect, exactly -when did your automobile first accelerate? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Our car accelerated immediately on the time--at the -time--this flurry of shots came into it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you say the acceleration---- - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Between the second and third shot. - -Senator COOPER. Might I ask a question there? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. - -Senator COOPER. A few minutes ago you said in response to a question -that when you spoke to the driver the car leaped forward from an -acceleration immediately. Did that acceleration occur before the second -shot was fired? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. Just about the time that it came in. - -Senator COOPER. About the time it came in? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Not before? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No. - -Senator COOPER. One other question: You said the flurry of shots came -in the car. You were leaning forward talking to the driver after the -first shot. What made you aware of a flurry of shots? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Senator, between all the matter that was--between all -the matter that was blown off from an injured person, this stuff all -came over. - -Senator COOPER. What was that? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Body matter; flesh. - -Senator COOPER. When you were speaking of a flurry of shots, was -there a longer interval between the first shot and the second shot as -compared to the interval between the second shot and the third shot? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you first notice the substance which you have -described as body matter? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. When I got to the hospital, sir, it was all over my coat. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice it flying past you at any time prior to -your arrival at the hospital? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; I know there was something in the air. - -Mr. SPECTER. When, in relation to the shots, Mr. Kellerman, did you -notice the substance in the air? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Fine. When I have given the orders to Mr. Lawson, this -is when it all came between the driver and myself. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe what it was in a little more detail as it -appeared to you at that time? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. This is a rather poor comparison, but let's say you take -a little handful of matter--I am going to use sawdust for want of a -better item--and just throw it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the sound of the flurry of shots by way -of distinction with the way you have described the sound of the first -shot? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, having heard all types of guns fired, most of -them, rather, if I recall correctly these were two sharp reports, sir. -Again, I am going to refer to it as like a plane going through a sound -barrier; bang, bang. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, you are referring to the flurry? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did it sound differently from the first noise you have -described as being a firecracker? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; definitely; very much so. - -Representative FORD. Was there any other noise going on at the time of -the second and third shots different from the noise of the crowd or -otherwise at the time of the first shot? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. We had no crowd, sir. There was nothing there. - -Representative FORD. So the external noise was identical as far as -the---- - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much. - -Representative FORD. First or second or the third shot? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. We are in an open-field area, so to speak, and -everything was just clear. - -Representative FORD. So there was no other sound that would have -disturbed your hearing capability from the first through the third shot? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; no other shot. - -Representative FORD. Your only problem would be your personal activity -after the first shot. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Correct. - -Representative FORD. Your activity of speaking to Greer and talking to -Lawson? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct, sir; yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Was there any crowd reaction? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. There was no crowd. - -Representative FORD. There were a few stragglers? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. A handful, and I didn't view any reaction, sir. - -Representative FORD. All right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, you said earlier that there were at least -two additional shots. Is there any area in your mind or possibility, as -you recollect that situation, that there could have been more than two -shots, or are you able to say with any certainty? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say that I have, from the firecracker -report and the two other shots that I know, those were three shots. -But, Mr. Specter, if President Kennedy had from all reports four -wounds, Governor Connally three, there have got to be more than three -shots, gentlemen. - -Senator COOPER. What is that answer? What did he say? - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you repeat that, Mr. Kellerman? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. President Kennedy had four wounds, two in the head and -shoulder and the neck. Governor Connally, from our reports, had three. -There have got to be more than three shots. - -Representative FORD. Is that why you have described---- - -Mr. KELLERMAN. The flurry. - -Representative FORD. The noise as a flurry? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Excuse me, do you have any independent recollection, Mr. -Kellerman, of the number of shots, aside from the inference that you -make as to how many points of wounds there were? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Could you rephrase that, please? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. You have drawn a conclusion, in effect, by saying -that there were four wounds for the President and three wounds for the -Governor; and from that, you say there must have been more than three -shots in your opinion or your view. But my question is: Do you have any -current recollection of having heard more than three shots? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No. I don't. I will have to say "No." - -Senator COOPER. Has that been your recollection from the very time of -the shooting? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; it has been my opinion. - -Senator COOPER. Not your opinion, but from the time of the shooting you -think then that you heard only three shots, or did you---- - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. - -Senator COOPER. Or did you ever think that you heard more than three? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; I can't say that, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, you referred to four wounds, Mr. Kellerman, -realizing, of course, your characterization is only lay opinion. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Very true. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us which wounds you made reference to by -that statement, please? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. All right. Can I keep the train going from the time we -got to the hospital? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir; do it in your own way just as you please. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Fine. As we arrived at the hospital I immediately got -out of the car. Our followup car is in back of us, as you will recall. -I yelled to the agents, "Get in"--"Go get us two stretchers on wheels." - -In the meantime in a matter of seconds--I don't know how they got out -so fast--I turned right around to the back door and opened it. By this -time Mrs. Connally had raised up, and the Governor is lying in her lap, -face up. His eyes are open and he is looking at me, and I am fairly -sure he is alive. By this time I noticed the two stretchers coming out -of the emergency room, and I said to the Governor, I said, "Governor, -don't worry; everything is going to be all right." And he nodded his -head, which I was fairly convinced that that man was alive. - -By this time the stretcher is there. I get inside on one side of him, -and Special Agent Hill on the other. Somebody is holding his feet, and -we remove the Governor and put him on the stretcher and they take him -in. - -We then get in and help Mrs. Connally out. Our next move is to get -Mrs. Kennedy off from the seat, which was a little difficult, but -she was removed. Then Mr. Hill removed his coat and laid it over the -President's face and shoulder. He and I among two other people--I -don't know--we lifted up the President and put him on a stretcher and -followed him right into the emergency room. - -Gentlemen, this emergency room is a, it looks like a, checkerboard; -it has a walkway down the center and a crossway and there are rooms -on each side. President Kennedy was put into the one on the right, -Governor Connally across on the left. And as we pushed the wheelchair -in--we pushed the stretcher inside, the medical people just seemed to -form right in, right there, and I walked around him and I wanted to -look at this man's face, they had him face up. - -Senator COOPER. The President? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. The President; I am sorry. I did not see any wounds in -that man's face. - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating with your hand at that moment the front part of -his face? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Right, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. May I interrupt you just to ask whether you had any -view---- - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Surely. - -Mr. SPECTER. Of the rear part of his head? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I did not, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the rearmost or uppermost portion of President -Kennedy's head which you could observe at that time? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. It was the hairline to the ear, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Proceed. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Having all the medical people in there, my business is -left in their hands. So I left. Mrs. Kennedy, incidentally, was still -in there. - -Mr. SPECTER. In where, sir? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. In the emergency room with him. Which after a few -minutes they convinced her to leave, and she sat outside the room while -they were working over the President. I walked into this center area -of this emergency room--and I am looking for a telephone--which there -is a little doctor's office and I walked inside, and I am alone at -that time, except one medic who was in there. There are two phones and -I said, "Can I use either one of these phones to get outside?" and he -said, "Yes; just pick one up." - -By this time Mr. Lawson enters and also Mr. Hill. I asked Mr. Lawson -for the telephone number of the Dallas White House switchboard. -He immediately has it and I said to Mr. Hill, "Will you dial it, -please?" By that time a medic comes into the room from President -Kennedy's section and he asks if anybody knows the blood type of the -President--President Kennedy. We all carry it. I produce mine, and that -is what I believe they used; I am not sure. By this time the connection -is made with the White House operator in Dallas, and I took the phone, -identified myself, and I said, "Give me Washington. Please don't pull -this line; let's leave it open." - -I got the Washington operator and I said, identified myself, and I -said, "Give me Mr. Behn." - -Mr. Behn was in the office at the time, and I said--his name is Gerald -Behn--and I said, "Gerry, we have had an incident here in Dallas. The -President, the Governor have been shot. We are in the emergency room -of the Parkland Memorial Hospital." I said, "Mark down the time." -Of course, since that time until now we have disagreed on about 3 -minutes. I said it is 12:38, which would be 1:38 Dallas time. I am -sorry--Washington time. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was that at the time you were talking to Mr. Behn? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. To Mr. Behn; yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And your version is that it is 12:38 Dallas time? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. 12:38. He said it was 12:41; he told me the next day. - -Mr. SPECTER. May I interrupt you there for you to tell us how long -after you arrived at the hospital did you make that telephone call to -Mr. Behn, to the best of your recollection? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Three to five minutes. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. The topic we are on now, Mr. Kellerman, is your -own way of relating the description of the wounds, starting with four -wounds on President Kennedy. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Right; OK. - -Mr. SPECTER. Proceed, then. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I can eclipse an awful lot here and get into the morgue -here in Bethesda, because that is where I looked him over. - -Mr. SPECTER. I will come back and pick up some of the other detail. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Fine. - -Mr. SPECTER. But for the sequence at the moment, as it relates to your -conclusions on the shots which you have already testified about---- - -Mr. KELLERMAN. OK. - -Mr. SPECTER. I would like to develop your understanding and your -observations of the four wounds on President Kennedy. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. OK. This all transpired in the morgue of the Naval -Hospital in Bethesda, sir. He had a large wound this size. - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a circle with your finger of the diameter of 5 -inches; would that be approximately correct? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, circular; yes, on this part of the head. - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the rear portion of the head. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. More to the right side of the head? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. This was removed. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say, "This was removed," what do you mean by this? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. The skull part was removed. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. - -Representative FORD. Above the ear and back? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. To the left of the ear, sir, and a little high; yes. -About right in here. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say "removed," by that do you mean that it was -absent when you saw him, or taken off by the doctor? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. It was absent when I saw him. - -Mr. SPECTER. Fine. Proceed. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Entry into this man's head was right below that wound, -right here. - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the bottom of the hairline immediately to the -right of the ear about the lower third of the ear? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. But it was in the hairline, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. In his hairline? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Near the end of his hairline? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the size of that aperture? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. The little finger. - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the diameter of the little finger. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, what was the position of that opening with respect to -the portion of the skull which you have described as being removed or -absent? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, I am going to have to describe it similar to this. -Let's say part of your skull is removed here; this is below. - -Mr. SPECTER. You have described a distance of approximately an inch and -a half, 2 inches, below. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct; about that, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. What other wounds, if any, did you notice on -the President? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. The other wound that I noticed was on his shoulder. - -Mr. SPECTER. Which shoulder. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Right shoulder. - -Mr. SPECTER. And was it--what was its general position with respect to -the breadth of the back? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Right straight. - -Mr. SPECTER. No. Upper shoulder, lower shoulder; how far below the -lower neckline would you say? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. The upper neckline, sir, in that large muscle between -the shoulder and the neck, just below it. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the size of that opening? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Again about the size of a little finger. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you described three wounds which you have -observed? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is three. The fourth one I will have to collaborate -with--the medical people in Dallas said that he had entry in the throat -or an exit. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, you are indicating a part on the throat right -underneath your tie as you sit there, the knot of your tie. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who told you that? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. This comes from a report from Dr. Kemp Clark. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to Dr. Clark personally? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I did not. This is a written report. - -Mr. SPECTER. This is a written report which you have read? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; that is right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any knowledge of that wound on the front side -aside from the written report of Dr. Kemp Clark? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Except that in the morgue it was very visible that they -had incisioned him here to insert the tracheotomy that they performed -on him. - -Mr. SPECTER. So with the operative procedures to perform a tracheotomy, -was there anything, in your view, left of the original entry? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Entry or exit that you have described. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. All you could see at that point was the operative -procedure, the cutting of the surgeon's blade in Dallas? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right. - -Senator COOPER. You are saying this, then, that you did not see, -yourself, at any time the mark of any wound in his neck front? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. When we took him into the hospital in Dallas; that is -right. - -Senator COOPER. What? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; when we took him in the hospital in -Dallas, I did not. - -Senator COOPER. Did you ever see it? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Only after he was opened up in the morgue; yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. You saw some indication or some mark of a wound in the -front of his neck? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Senator, from the report of the doctor who worked on him -in Dallas, that he enlarged the incision here in his throat to perform -that tracheotomy, and I believe in his own statement that that wound -was there prior to this incision. - -Senator COOPER. I know, but I am asking---- - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I didn't see it, sir. - -Senator COOPER. What you saw yourself? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I didn't. - -Representative FORD. Was that because Hill had thrown his coat over the -President, or just didn't see the skin or the body at the time? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. When I--that coat was thrown over, sir, to -eliminate any gruesome pictures. - -Representative FORD. How far over that body? Did it go over the head -only or down the chest? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No; the whole coat went all the way down to the -waistline, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. You saw the President's face, though, at a later time as -you have described? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, thank you. This I had lost track of, to help you -out, Mr. Congressman. While he lay on the stretcher in that emergency -room his collar and everything is up and I saw nothing in his face to -indicate an injury, whether the shot had come through or not. He was -clear. - -Representative FORD. But while he was on the stretcher in the emergency -room you saw his face? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right. - -Representative FORD. But he had his tie and his collar still---- - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Still on. - -Representative FORD. Still on? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. You never saw his neck? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. - -Representative FORD. At that time? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. At that time, I did not observe him. - -Representative FORD. The only time you saw him was later at the morgue? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any blood on the portion of his body in -the neck area or anyplace in the front of his body? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't recall any. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any hole in the clothing of the President -on the front part, in the shirt or tie area? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. From your observation of the wound which you observed in -the morgue which you have described as a tracheotomy, would that have -been above or below the shirtline when the President was clothed? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. It would have been below the shirtline, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you described all of the wounds of the President -to which you have referred? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the three wounds which I believe you -said Governor Connally sustained? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to refer to the medical report on Governor -Connally, wherein they said one wound was in his right back---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the upper shoulder area? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. One went through his wrist. - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the right wrist. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I am using the numbers, and he was--a missile went into -his thigh somewhere. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know anything about Governor Connally's wounds -aside from what you read in the medical report? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No; not personally. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any independent knowledge of which wrist and -which thigh, aside from what you read in the medical reports themselves? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; I do, I talked to the Governor several times -later, and it is the right wrist, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. It is the right wrist? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And which thigh? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. It would be the left one. - -Representative FORD. Is this a good point for a recess? - -Mr. SPECTER. This is fine. - -Representative FORD. We will take a 5-minute break. - -(Short recess.) - -Representative FORD. The Commission will resume, and will you proceed, -Mr. Specter, please? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes sir. One of your last answers was that the position -of the wounds on Governor Connally was ascertained from a conversation -between you and Governor Connally, as well as from the medical reports -themselves. Is that correct? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No; it is really not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Then tell us what your basis is for your testimony on -Governor Connally's wounds. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I have never conversed with the Governor as to his other -wounds outside of his wrist. Your medical report on Governor Connally -which indicate the shoulder wound, wrist, and in the thigh. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you have occasion to talk to him about his wrist -wound? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Over the holidays in Texas, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. The Christmas holidays? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you now told us everything you know, either from -conversations or reports, about the wounds of Governor Connally? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. Were you able to observe at the time of the -shooting and immediately thereafter, as Governor Connally went into the -hospital, any of his specific wounds? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Only of the--I am presuming now of the hand because, -when he was lying, he had it across his stomach here, and it was rather -bloody. - -Mr. SPECTER. And was it the hand that was bloody, the stomach, or both? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I would say so right now; yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Which? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. The hand. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was the stomach bloody at all? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Not that I remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add, Mr. Kellerman, on the total -number of wounds in relationship to your view that there were more than -three shots? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, let's consider the vehicle. - -Mr. SPECTER. Fine. What about the vehicle would you consider relevant -in this regard? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. The windshield itself, which I observed a day or two -after the funeral here, had been hit by a piece of this missile or -missiles, whatever it is, shell. - -Mr. SPECTER. While you are referring to the windshield, permit me to -hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 349 and ask if you can -tell us what that photograph depicts? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. This photograph is the windshield of the Presidential -special automobile that we used in Dallas on November 22. And it -depicts a hit by some instrument on the metal railing that covers the -windshield. - -Mr. SPECTER. In what position is the hit on that metal railing? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Directly to the right of the mirror. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is that on the top of the windshield? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is on the top of the windshield. I am sorry; this -is not the windshield itself; this is the top of the vehicle. This is -the framework. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw a red arrow with the pen that you have to -the mark which you have just described? - -(Mr. Kellerman marked the photograph.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, when did you first observe that indentation? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. This was observed a day or two after the funeral, which -funeral was the 25th of November; this would be upward of the 27th. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where was the automobile at the time you observed that -indentation? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. At the White House garage, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was the windshield in the automobile at that time? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it was in the automobile. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe or notice that indentation in the -windshield when you were in Dallas after the shooting occurred? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe or notice that indentation before the -shooting occurred? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to state positively whether or not that -indentation was present before the shooting? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. So that you observed it on the first occasion when you -saw the car in the White House garage on or about November 27; is that -correct? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. The indentation could conceivably have been present before -the shooting? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. It could have; yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. But you didn't observe it before the shooting? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I did not. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you not observe it in Dallas after the shooting? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; I did not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to examine closely the -windshield area after the assassination in Dallas? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to examine closely the -windshield at any time after the assassination until you saw the car in -the garage on or about November 27? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; I have not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe for the record where that indentation -occurs or is placed? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. This indentation is placed on the metal-bar framework -which is across the top of the windshield. The indentation is directly -to the right of the mirror holder. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is that on the inside or the outside of the car? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. This is on the inside of the car. - -Representative FORD. What prompted you to make that investigation on or -about November 27? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. First, Mr. Congressman, I wanted to look this car over -for--let me go back a little bit. When this car was checked over that -night for its return to Washington, I was informed the following day -of the pieces of these missiles that were found in the front seat, and -I believe aside from the skull, that was in the rear seat, I couldn't -conceive even from elevation how this shot hit President Kennedy like -it did. I wanted to view this vehicle, whether this was a slant blow -off the car, whether it hit the car first and then hit him, or what -other marks are on this vehicle, and that is what prompted me to go -around and check it over myself. - -Representative FORD. Had anybody told you of this indentation prior to -your own personal investigation? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Not of the windshield; no, sir. - -Representative FORD. You were the first one to find this indentation? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I believe I am the first one who noticed this thing up -on the bar. - -Representative FORD. That is what I meant. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. You are the first one to notice this particular -indentation? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; I believe I am, sir. - -Representative FORD. All right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to examine the windshield or the -framework closely before the assassination, either in Dallas or in -Washington? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I honestly didn't. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chairman, I move for the admission to evidence of -Exhibit No. 349. - -Representative FORD. It will be so admitted. - -(The document referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 349 -for identification, was received in evidence.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Now I hand to Mr. Kellerman, through the Chairman, -Commission Exhibit No. 350, and ask you to describe what this picture -represents? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. This picture represents the windshield of the -President's special automobile as we are looking into it. This is an -outside photo. My reason for this is that on inspection there is a--the -windshield has been struck by an instrument and it has been cracked. -This crack is opposite the mirror facing the driver would be toward the -driver, to the right of the mirror, and---- - -Mr. SPECTER. The photograph, Exhibit 350, is from the outside of the -car front looking toward the car; correct? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What mark, if any, appears in the photograph on the -windshield itself? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. There is the cracked windshield located to the right of -the mirror as you look into the automobile. - -Mr. SPECTER. That would be on the driver's side, as you previously -stated? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; on the driver's side of the vehicle. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, is this picture an accurate representation of the -appearance of the windshield at some time when you observed the -windshield? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. This windshield I observed on this same day. - -Mr. SPECTER. On or about November 27, 1963? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct. - -Mr. SPECTER. Does that picture accurately represent what the windshield -looked like on that day when you observed it? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it is. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any crack in the windshield as -the President's automobile was being driven from the point of -assassination to the hospital? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I did not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe it at any time prior to the time you saw -the automobile in the White House garage on or before November 27? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I did not, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to examine closely the -windshield after the time of the shooting up until the time you saw it -in the White House garage? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, at the time of your examination of the windshield in -the White House garage, did you feel the windshield? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. On the day that I visited the White House garage and -checked this car over for my own personal reasons, and this windshield -crack was pointed out to me, I did---- - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say it was pointed out to you, by whom? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. There were other people in the garage, Mr. Specter, like -Mr. Kinney, I believe was there at the time, Special Agent Henry Rybka -was the other person. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was it sufficiently prominent without having to have it -pointed out specially? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Oh, yes; very much. And I felt this windshield both -inwardly and outwardly to determine first if there was something that -was struck from the back of us or--and I was satisfied that it was. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say struck from in back of you, do you mean on -the inside or outside of the windshield? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Inside, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Inside of the car? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to feel the outside of the -windshield? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I did on that day; yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you feel, if anything? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Not a thing; it was real smooth. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to feel the inside of the windshield? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I did. - -Mr. SPECTER. How did that feel to you? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. My comparison was that the broken glass, broken -windshield, there was enough little roughness in there from the cracks -and split that I was positive, or it was my belief, that whatever hit -it came into the inside of the car. - -Mr. SPECTER. I move for the admission into evidence of Exhibit No. 350. - -Representative FORD. It will be so admitted. - -(The document referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 350 -for identification, was received in evidence.) - -Mr. SPECTER. I now call the attention of the Commission to Exhibit -No. 351, which is the windshield itself which, as the Commission may -observe, is present in the hearing room. Now, with reference to Exhibit -No. 351, which is a marking placed over a glass object, Mr. Kellerman, -can you describe for the Commission what that is? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; this windshield, which has since been removed from -the vehicle, at the time I first viewed it, this area marked in here -was all that was cracked. These are later splints. - -Mr. SPECTER. Before you proceed, Mr. Kellerman, do you have knowledge -as to the general removal procedure during which this windshield was -taken from the President's car? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I believe I do not. However, I believe Mr. Greer would -be able to identify it better than I, on the removal side. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe the condition of the windshield in its -present state as we are viewing it here this morning? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. The windshield this morning has--has been hit by some -object with sufficient force---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Perhaps we ought to start with the point of impact, Mr. -Kellerman. First, are you able to positively identify this as the -windshield from the President's automobile? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; I would say it was, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is this the same windshield as depicted in Exhibits 349 -and 350? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, starting with the principal point of -impact, where does that exist on this windshield? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. The principal point of impact is located to the left of -the mirror, to the right above the driver's head, and to the right of -his, I am going to say, view line. - -Mr. SPECTER. As we view the windshield at this time, state whether or -not there are spidering lines which have emanated from that point which -you have described as the principal point of impact? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. The spidering lines which extend in three different -directions--you are speaking of the large ones or the others? - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, I want to put on this record all of the spidering -lines which exist here. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. OK; the spidering lines which are in this encircled area -reflect, in my opinion, that when the instrument hit this glass it -shattered in half a dozen different ways. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well now, with respect to the cracks themselves, is there -a crack which goes in a generally upwardly direction slanting off in -the general direction of the driver? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. In the center of this, the impact of the center of this -scratch, one goes directly to the top of the windshield. - -Mr. SPECTER. On that line itself, is there a further splintering off of -that line at another point? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. It then continues on a small leg, a straight leg, about -3 inches from the original direction. - -Mr. SPECTER. And is there a change of direction at that point, or a -bifurcation, dividing it into two parts? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, you have described in a generally upwardly direction -of about 3 inches? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And is there not a crack which then extends all the way to -the top of the windshield moving, in the direction of the left side of -the windshield from the driver facing it? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right. There is a complete crack from this -so-called cutoff to the top right of the windshield right above the -view line of the driver. - -Mr. SPECTER. Taking that from a compass reading, would that be in a -generally northeasterly direction? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; northeasterly. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. From a point 3 inches from the center crack, -which we described as the principal point of impact, then, does there -form a point of crack in a V-direction with the line you have already -described? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; there does. There is a small splint, about 2 -inches, that heads directly north off from this splinter that goes in a -northeasterly direction. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, moving in a clockwise direction. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. In a clockwise direction. - -Mr. SPECTER. What crack do you observe, if any? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I next observe on the eastward side of this center crack -a splint of about 3 inches long, which then makes a sharp veer to the -southeast to the bottom of the windshield. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, moving further in a clockwise direction, what crack -do you next observe emanating from the central point of impact? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. The next crack from the central point of impact extends -down about 3 inches, to the southeast, and then veers to a sharp -southeast to the bottom of the windshield. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, moving further in a clockwise direction. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. From this point---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Let's continue to move from the central point of impact -to finish up what divergent cracks there are from the central point of -impact. Is there one other? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. There is one other point left. This is completely in a -westerly direction about 3 inches from the center of impact, which then -veers to the northwest to the top of the windshield. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are there other cracks in the windshield? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. There is one other splint, which is from the -southeasterly leg---- - -Mr. SPECTER. That would be southwesterly leg. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Southwesterly leg--I am sorry--that drops to within an -inch of the bottom of the windshield, whereby another splint travels in -a northwesterly direction to about halfway of the windshield. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you described all of the visible cracks in the -windshield? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That has completed it, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. As you have viewed this windshield, have you looked at it -from the outside looking in or the inside looking out? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I have been looking from the outside looking in. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where you would have been if you had been, say, on -the front hood of the car when the windshield was in place on the -automobile? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I would have been--pardon? - -Mr. SPECTER. On the hood of the car? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. On the hood of the car this would have been facing me as -it is sitting here today. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have there been any measures taken to protect the outer -edges of this windshield in its position here in the hearing room? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. A form of protective tape has been placed around -the entire windshield to protect it, to keep it intact. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are there any differences in the cracks on the windshield -today as it sits in our hearing room from its condition when you -observed it on or about November 27, 1963? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. From the point of impact the four cracks that -looked in the four directions were the only ones on this windshield. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is there any marking in color or otherwise on that piece -of the windshield? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. There has been a yellow crayon marking the circumference -of these four cracks, apparently before the windshield was removed from -the automobile. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is that yellow or red? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. It is red. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were the cracks present within the circumference of that -marking present at the time you observed the windshield on or about -November 27? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were any of the other marks present when you observed the -windshield on or about November 27? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you at this time feel the outside of the windshield -and describe what, if anything, you feel at the point of impact? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. The outside markings from the point of impact, the -extended lines---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman. I would like for you at this time to -actually touch the outside and tell me, first of all, if it is the same -or if it differs in any way from the sense of feel which you noted when -you touched it on or about November 27? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. As I touch the outside on the impact, it would be the -same as I noticed on the 27th of November. - -Mr. SPECTER. What do you notice, if anything? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. It is a smooth surface without any---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Without any--finish your answer. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. On the inside. - -Mr. SPECTER. No; before. It is a smooth surface without any what? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Without any crack lines. - -Mr. SPECTER. On the outside? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That can be felt. - -Mr. SPECTER. On the outside? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; on the outside of the windshield. - -Mr. SPECTER. Feel the inside and tell us, first of all, whether it is -the same or different from the way you touched it on November 27? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. On November 27, when I felt the inside of this impact -area, I was convinced that I could--that I felt an opening in one of -these lines, which was indicative to me that the blow was struck from -the inside of the car on this windshield. - -Mr. SPECTER. Does it feel the same to you today as it did on or about -November 27? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. As a matter of fact, it feels rather smooth today. - -Mr. SPECTER. It feels somewhat differently today than it felt before? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; it does. - -Representative FORD. Could we ask when the red circle was placed on the -windshield, if you know? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I do not know. - -Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the shattering which existed on or about -November 27, which is within the red circle, could that condition have -existed on November 22 after the assassination? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Absolutely not. I don't think so. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is the reason for your expressing your thought that -it could not have existed? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. This automobile is never out of sight of any agent, or -even a police officer, before it is used--used or afterward. Let me -clarify that. The agent that accompanied these cars to Dallas was with -the vehicles from the time they left Washington aboard this plane. -One of his many duties outside of keeping it, having this car run -perfectly, is that all the equipment is in perfect condition. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, what you are saying, then, is there had -been no crack in the windshield prior to the time of the shooting? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct. - -Mr. SPECTER. My next question is: Did you observe any crack in the -windshield after the shooting on November 22? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to look for or examine for any -crack in the windshield after the shooting? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I had no occasion whatsoever. - -Mr. SPECTER. If the crack in the windshield had been as prominent as it -was on or about November 27, 1963, would you have observed it after the -shooting on November 22? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; I don't think I would have. - -Senator COOPER. Is it correct then to say that you didn't find any -occasion to examine the windshield after you heard the shots? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, I did not have the opportunity. - -Mr. SPECTER. And after the President was removed from the automobile, -did you ever go back and examine the car, including the windshield? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Not in Dallas; no, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. To be absolutely certain our record is straight on this -point, when you observed this windshield on or about November 27, 1963, -was the windshield in or out of the car? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. It was in the car. This was the same day they were going -to remove it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did they remove it later that day, to your knowledge? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; they did, and the mechanics were there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you there at the time this was removed? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. But the mechanics had arrived preparatory to removing it? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, we intended to describe the windshield -in detail prior to your mentioning it, but to go back to your train -of thought, you had brought up the windshield in response to my -question about whether you had told us everything that you had in mind -when you expressed the view that there were more than three shots. -Now, remaining on the subject of the windshield, what fact about the -windshield was important in your mind when you expressed the view that -there must have been more than three shots? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I may be a little--I am not ahead of myself in your -investigation of this case, but I think with the evidence that you -all have on the numbers, on the pieces of evidence that were found in -the car, plus the fact that you have a missile that was received from -Dallas, from one of the stretchers, plus the fact of the missile that, -to my knowledge, hasn't been removed from Governor Connally--it may -have, I don't know--count up to more than three to me, gentlemen. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right; fine. But focusing just a moment on the -windshield in and of itself, is there any physical factor or -characteristic of the windshield other than those already described for -the record which has any bearing on your conclusion about the number of -shots? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No; it does not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, moving on to the other pieces of evidence which you -have just described, you referred to pieces of evidence in the car. -What did you mean when you made that reference, sir? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I have--I was told, although this is a hearsay thing---- - -Mr. SPECTER. For these purposes, please tell us whatever you are -referring to, whatever its source, hearsay or not. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Okay; fine. That when they examined that vehicle that -night, when it was brought back to Washington, D.C., two pieces of a -bullet or bullets were found on the passenger side on the floor of the -front seat. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe those? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who told you that, or what report? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Boring--Floyd Boring. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who is Mr. Boring? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. He is also an assistant special agent in charge. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is he currently with the Secret Service? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. He is currently with the Secret Service at the White -House; yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were those two pieces of bullet described with more -particularity than you have mentioned? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No; they were not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were they described as fragments of bullets as -distinguished from whole bullets? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Right, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. But do you have any information as to the size of the -fragments? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I do not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other pieces of evidence in the car that you -were referring to there? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. The only other piece of evidence in the car was -President Kennedy's skull. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. Do you know what was done with those fragments -that Mr. Boring told you about? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I don't. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not those were turned over to the -FBI? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I would say they were probably turned over to the FBI; -yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And why would you say they probably were? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Because they were assigned to going over the car. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was it their procedure to turn over whatever they found to -the FBI? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Oh, yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, is there anything special in the nature of the skull -which you just mentioned which would have any bearing on the number of -shots fired in this assassination? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, but it would be one shell, one shot. - -Mr. SPECTER. That would be your conclusion? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That would be my conclusion. - -Mr. SPECTER. That it would take one shot to have separated that portion -of skull? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. You mentioned a missile found on a stretcher in Dallas. -Will you elaborate on what you were referring to there? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. This was given, I believe, in your statements there, to -a Special Agent Johnsen. I haven't seen this missile. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you referring there to the missile which was found on -the stretcher and to the sequence of events from which it was traced -back to one of the two victims of this shooting? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any more knowledge about that other than that -which you have already mentioned? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I do not. - -Mr. SPECTER. You mentioned a missile which was not removed from -Governor Connally. Specifically, what did you refer to there? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. There was in the early--this was on the day in Parkland -Memorial Hospital, and this information comes from Dr. George Burkley, -the President's physician, when, I believe, I asked him the condition -of Governor Connally, and have they removed the bullet from him. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did Dr. Burkley say? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Dr. Burkley said that to his knowledge he still has the -bullet in him. - -Mr. SPECTER. And at what time on November 22 was that? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. This was after we got into the hospital after the -shooting, sir, between then and 2 o'clock. - -Mr. SPECTER. So that the operation on Governor Connally had not been -completed at that point? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any additional knowledge about any bullet in -Governor Connally? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I do not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you now told us about all of the facts which you took -into account in your conclusion that there were more than three shots? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add, Mr. Kellerman, by way of -explanation or elaboration, to tell us which might be helpful with -respect to your conclusion based on all of these items which you have -described to us that there were more than three shots? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Gentlemen, I think if you would view the films yourself -you may come up with a little different answer. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, have you viewed the films, Mr. Kellerman? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I have; yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there something special in your viewing of the films -which led you to believe that there were more than three shots? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No; it doesn't point out more than three shots, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Which films are you referring to? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. These are the colored ones that were taken on the right -side. - -Mr. SPECTER. Taken by Mr. Abraham Zapruder? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't know. - -Mr. SPECTER. You are not familiar with the photographer? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I am not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, can you describe the view you say is from the -right-hand side of the automobile? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right. - -Mr. SPECTER. So that would be on the side of the road where the Texas -School Book Depository Building was? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And approximately where did those pictures begin and end? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. These pictures began as we turned off Houston Street -onto Elm. - -Mr. SPECTER. And where did they end? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. As we are, just before we are, going into the viaduct. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were those black and white or in color? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No; they were colored. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you seen any other films of the assassination? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; I saw a black-and-white, but I didn't--I saw a -black-and-white film. However, I didn't get enough out of it there -to---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Before proceeding any further, I would like to move for -the introduction in evidence of Exhibit 351. - -Representative FORD. It is approved. - -(The windshield referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 351 for -identification and was received in evidence.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything at all to add which you think might -be helpful, Mr. Kellerman, on the question of how many shots were -fired, or have you told us everything you have in mind on that question? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I believe I have, Mr. Specter. - -Senator COOPER. What was the name of the special agent driving the -car--the President's car? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. William Greer. - -Senator COOPER. He was the one to whom you spoke when you heard the -report? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Has he ever expressed any opinion to you as to the -number of shots that were fired? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. I think we are all of the opinion, Senator, -that we know of three. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, referring to Commission Exhibit No. 347, -will you pinpoint as precisely as you can on that aerial shot, aerial -picture, where the President's car was at the time of the first shot? -And mark that, if you would, please, with an "X" in red pencil. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. My guess would be right in here, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you mark as closely as you can where the -President's car was at the time of the second shot and mark that with a -"Y" in red. - -(Mr. Kellerman marking the picture.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, you have marked the cars being in approximately the -middle of the road; is that accurate, as you recollect it? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is the general procedure, Mr. Specter; they were -traveling in the center of the road. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, with respect to the time of the third shot, would -your marking be any different from the "Y" position? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No; it would not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, from the time of the shooting until the time the -automobile arrived at Parkland Hospital, did anyone in the President's -car say anything that you have not already told us about? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, there is a report from the Federal Bureau -of Investigation designated "Bureau File No. 105"--I believe there is -an "S", although it is somewhat illegible on my copy--"S2555, report -of Special Agent Robert P. Gemberling," dated December 10, 1963, which -refers to an interview of you by Special Agent Francis X. O'Neill, Jr., -and James W. Sibert, in which the following is set forth: - -"He"--and this obviously refers to you--"advised that he heard a shot -and immediately turned around looking past Governor Connally who was -seated directly in back of him, to the President. He observed the -President slumped forward and heard him say 'get me to a hospital.' -Mr. Kellerman then heard Mrs. Kennedy say, 'Oh, no,' as the President -leaned toward her." That is the end of the quotation. My question is: -Did you hear him; did you hear President Kennedy say, "Get me to a -hospital"? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear Mrs. Kennedy say, "Oh, no"? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any knowledge or explanation as to why you -would have been so quoted in the report of the FBI? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. When these two gentlemen talked to me, I don't know -where they got those quotes, because the only two things that I told -them, they were interested in what I heard from the people in the back -seat, and one said "my God, I have been hit," which was President -Kennedy, and Mrs. Kennedy said, "What are they doing to you?" - -Mr. SPECTER. You were interviewed, however, by Mr. O'Neill and Mr. -Sibert on November 22, 1963? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. November what? - -Mr. SPECTER. November 22. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No. November 22 is when they were in the morgue with me. -They interviewed me in the office that--it was around the 27th. This -was after the funeral. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did they have any conversation with you about these events -in the morgue? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Not that I recall, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a discussion with either of those gentlemen -about anything while you were at the morgue on November 22? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. The only thing I can recall discussionwise--I just -forget which one it was, one of the two--this was before we even knew -that a shell had been found from the hole in the President's shoulder. -We couldn't determine what happened to it. They couldn't find it in the -morgue; they couldn't find any leeway as to whatever happened to the -shell when it hit the President's shoulder; where did it go. So our -contention was that while he was on the stretcher in Dallas, and the -neurosurgeon was working over him no doubt with pressure on the heart, -this thing worked itself out. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say "our contention," what do you mean by that? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. One of these agents--I forget which one it was; it could -have been Sibert or O'Neill, but I am not sure. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did what? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. We--our discussion or my discussion. - -Mr. SPECTER. You had a discussion and when you say "our contention" by -that do you mean that was the conclusion you came to? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Conclusion--that is right, sir--as to where this bullet -went into the shoulder and where did it go. - -Mr. SPECTER. While you are on that subject, was there any conversation -at the time of the autopsy on that matter itself? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much so. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate to the Commission the nature of that -conversation and the parties to it? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. There were three gentlemen who were performing this -autopsy. A Colonel Finck--during the examination of the President, -from the hole that was in his shoulder, and with a probe, and we were -standing right alongside of him, he is probing inside the shoulder with -his instrument and I said, "Colonel, where did it go?" He said, "There -are no lanes for an outlet of this entry in this man's shoulder." - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you say anything in response to that? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I said, "Colonel, would it have been possible that while -he was on the stretcher in Dallas that it works itself out?" And he -said, "Yes." - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any additional conversation between you and -Colonel Finck at that time? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Not on that point; no, sir; not on that point. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any conversation of any sort between you and -Colonel Finck which would be helpful to us here? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, from Humes, who was the other gentleman out there, -from the entry of the skull, from this hole here. - -Mr. SPECTER. You are now referring to the hole which you describe being -below the missing part of the skull? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it was confirmed that the entry of the shell -here went right through the top and removed that piece of the skull. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who confirmed that? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. One of the three gentlemen; I don't recall. - -Mr. SPECTER. You don't recall which one, but it was one of the three -doctors doing the autopsy? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right. - -Mr. SPECTER. So you are saying it confirmed that the hole that was -below the piece of skull that was removed, was the point of entry of -the one bullet which then passed up through the head and took off the -skull? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Right, sir. That is correct. - -Mr. SPECTER. Then that was all done by one bullet, based on what you -are telling us at this moment? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right. - -Mr. SPECTER. From the confirmation that one of the three doctors made? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, was there any other conversation between you and -Colonel Finck or Commander Humes---- - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. At that time, which was important on the subject we are -discussing? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Actually, from all the X-rays that were taken, and we -viewed them all together; when I say "we," I am saying the medical -people who were in the morgue at the time, the two Bureau agents, -myself, and also Mr. Greer, who was in there with me, naturally, they -were looking for pieces of fragmentation of this bullet. There was -none; only one piece to my knowledge. That was removed inside above the -eye, the right eye. - -Mr. SPECTER. You have now told us all about the conversations between -you and Colonel Finck and Commander Humes and anyone else at the -autopsy which are important on the positions of the hole and the wounds -in the head? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Right, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any other conversation with either Special -Agent O'Neill or Special Agent Sibert of the FBI on November 22, 1963, -other than your conversations about the wounds on President Kennedy? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, while we are discussing this in -relationship to your conversations with Special Agents O'Neill and -Sibert, were there any other comments made by anybody else present -at the autopsy about the path of the bullet into Mr. Kennedy's back, -relating to whether there was any point of exit or anything of that -sort? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Colonel Finck did all the talking, sir. He was the only -one. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you told us everything Colonel Finck said about -that subject? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much so; yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. So that there is nothing that was said on that subject -other than what you have already told us about? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No; that is right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, I have read to you a part of what Special -Agents O'Neill and Sibert have attributed to you in an interview which -they have written about on November 22, 1963. Referring to that in -the portion which I have read to you and which I will reread, I want -you to direct your attention to the issue about which way you turned. -The report states, "He advised he heard a shot and immediately turned -around looking past Governor Connally who was seated directly in back -of him to the President." - -Now, did that describe a turn to the right or to the left? This is a -difficult question. Let me interject one thing. We are presupposing -here, based on your testimony, that you did not discuss with Special -Agents O'Neill or Sibert these specific events on November 22, to the -best of your recollection as we sit here today. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right. - -Mr. SPECTER. So that the question really goes to a situation where -perhaps they have an inaccurate day or your recollection is inaccurate -as to some of the things you might have told them. So, my prefatory -question would be whether that is an accurate statement and is -something you told them at some time. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't believe I did. I think I will stand on my -original statement. - -Representative FORD. The original statement you made here today? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; very much. - -Mr. SPECTER. So that the statement I just read to you, so far as your -best---- - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I can't---- - -Mr. SPECTER. So far as your best testimony is at this time, it was -simply not made by you on November 22? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right, now. Was that statement I just read to you, the -short one about your turn, to the best of your recollection at this -moment, did you ever make that statement to Special Agents O'Neill -and/or Sibert? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, everybody I have talked to I have always -turned to the right when I first heard the noise. I turned to my left -to view the people in my back seat because it is a more comfortable -position. So I don't think the turning is correct, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you say the report is incorrect? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right. - -Representative FORD. May I ask--you have viewed these colored motion -pictures which were taken during the assassination. Have you looked at -those to see what your own actions were during this period of time? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Do they coincide with what you have testified to -here today? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. They certainly do. - -Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No. -352, and ask you if you can tell us what that picture represents? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; this was the rear seat of the President's car, -sir, after all the occupants were removed. - -Mr. SPECTER. And when did the rear seat of the President's car look -like the picture 352? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. After all the occupants were removed on the 22d of -November. - -Mr. SPECTER. When the car was parked at Parkland Hospital? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't know where this picture was taken, sir. This -could have been taken in the White House garage. - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes; but aside from where the picture was taken, is that -the way the car looked at the time it was at Parkland Hospital after -President Kennedy and Governor Connally were removed from the car? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe for the written record very briefly what -this picture shows? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. The picture shows the complete rear seat of the -Presidential limousine. - -Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, is on the rear seat? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. On the seat part of this car is splattered with blood; -there are a few petals of flowers, and the back seat cushion part is -pretty well bloodied up. - -Mr. SPECTER. I move for the introduction in evidence of Commission -Exhibit No. 352. - -Representative FORD. So admitted. - -(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 352 for -identification, and received in evidence.) - -Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you, through the Chairman, Commission Exhibit -No. 353, move its admission into evidence, and ask you to tell us what -this depicts. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. This is the same Presidential vehicle after the -occupants have been removed from the rear seat. It shows the--a goodly -amount of blood that had remained on the cushion and back part of the -seat and also little flower petals. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is Exhibit No. 353 an accurate representation of the way -the rear seat of the President's automobile looked after---- - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. After President Kennedy and Governor Connally were removed -to Parkland Hospital. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it is. - -Mr. SPECTER. You have described in answers to previous questions what -occurred upon the arrival at Parkland of the President's automobile. -What action, if any, did you take immediately after President Kennedy -and Governor Connally were taken into the hospital? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I believe we had got to the point where I had made -this phone call to Washington to alert these people back here of the -incident. - -Mr. SPECTER. And proceeding from that point? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. From this point, the agents who were in this followup -car had joined me in the emergency room. They took up security posts -at entrance into the emergency room to keep it clear of all people -except medical people. The only people allowed in there would be -workers. After this was done, Special Agent Kinney came to me and asked -permission to remove the President's car and our followup car to the -airport, to load it aboard this aircraft for shipment to Washington, -and I said, "Yes." - -At that time the next move was Special Agent Warren Taylor, who was -assigned to the then Vice President Johnson, came to me and he said, -"Mr. Johnson wants to talk to you." So, I followed him into this room -that they had the Johnson party in. He asked me the condition of -President Kennedy, which I told him that President Kennedy is still in -the emergency room, his condition is serious. He then said, "You let me -know of any developments." - -I then returned to the emergency room. By that time another shift of -agents, who were at the Trade Mart on duty for prior to our arrival, -reported into the emergency room. This is what is called as our -afternoon shift, the 4 to 12. Mr. Roberts, whose group was on the -followup car in the motorcade through Dallas, was the 8-to-4 shift. -The 4-to-12 shift then was under the supervision of Mr. Stewart Stout. -I then instructed Mr. Roberts to take his shift, which were the day -people, and join Special Agent Rufus Youngblood and stay with Vice -President Johnson. - -Mr. SPECTER. How many agents were they to take with them? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. They took the entire followup car, which would mean that -they had Roberts, Ready, Bennett, McIntyre; those four. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know where they went or what specifically they did -by way of establishing security for Vice President Johnson? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I really don't. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was your next activity? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. My next move, then, my next part in this was--by this -time it was after 1 o'clock--I am trying to pinpoint time--after 1, -because Dr. Burkley said that the President had died; it was after 1 -o'clock. By this time other people who were in with Mr. Kennedy, such -as his staff--I am speaking of Mr. O'Donnell, Mr. Powers, I believe -Larry O'Brien--through them, and I believe Mr. Hill, they had obtained -a casket from one of the funeral people in town. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where had Mrs. Kennedy been during this time? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Mrs. Kennedy was right outside the door to the emergency -room. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long, if at all, was she inside the emergency room -with President Kennedy? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. This I can't truly answer. However, I should say that, -as for the casket being brought into the hospital, another gentleman -came into this little doctor's room, his name I don't recall, but he -represented himself to be from the Health Department or commission, -some form. He said to me, he said, "There has been a homicide here, you -won't be able to remove the body. We will have to take it down there -to the mortuary and have an autopsy." I said, "No, we are not." And he -said, "We have a law here whereby you have to comply with it." - -With that Dr. Burkley walked in, and I said, "Doctor, this man is from -some health unit in town. He tells me we can't remove this body." The -Doctor became a little enraged; he said, "We are removing it." He -said, "This is the President of the United States and there should be -some consideration in an event like this." And I told this gentleman, -I said, "You are going to have to come up with something a little -stronger than you to give me the law that this body can't be removed." - -So, he frantically called everybody he could think of and he hasn't got -an answer; nobody is home. Shortly he leaves this little room and it -seems like a few minutes he is back and he has another gentleman with -him, and he said, "This is"--the name escapes me--he said, "He is a -judge here in Dallas," and he said, "He will tell you whether you can -remove this body or not." I said, "It doesn't make any difference. We -are going to move it," and I said, "Judge, do you know who I am?" - -And he said, "Yes," and I said, "There must be something in your -thinking here that we don't have to go through this agony; the family -doesn't have to go through this. We will take care of the matter when -we get back to Washington." The poor man looked at me and he said, "I -know who you are," and he said, "I can't help you out." I said, "All -right, sir." But then I happened to look to the right and I can see -the casket coming on rollers, and I just left the room and let it out -through the emergency entrance and we got to the ambulance and put it -in, shut the door after Mrs. Kennedy and General McHugh and Clinton -Hill in the rear part of this ambulance. - -I am looking around for Mr. Greer and I don't spot him directly because -I want to get out of here in a hurry, and I recognize Agent Berger and -I said, "Berger, you get in the front seat and drive and, Mr. Stout, -you get in the middle and I will set on this side," and as we are -leaving--Mr. Lawson, I should say, was in a police car that led us away -from Parkland Memorial Hospital. As we are leaving a gentleman taps on -the driver's window and they roll it down and he says, "I will meet you -at the mortuary." "Yes, sir." We went to the airport, gentlemen. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who said, "Yes, sir"? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I did, sir. We went to the airport. In the meantime, Mr. -Johnson had been taken to the airplane. They had secured the airport; -nobody was there. They had removed seats off the rear part of the plane -so we could put the body and the casket in it. As we got to the airport -the ramp was there; we opened the door, and we moved the casket out and -walked it right up to the plane. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any further difficulty of any sort---- - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Imposed by any Texas officials on the removal of the body? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. Whatever happened to the hearse, I don't know. -I never left the plane. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe---- - -Mr. KELLERMAN. We left the hospital; we have a time on that; it is 4 -minutes after 2. It is about a 10-minute ride to the airplane. - -Mr. SPECTER. On the question of timing, pinning down these times as -best we can, how long did it take you to get from the shooting incident -to the time you arrived at Parkland, based on your best estimates? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, it seemed like hours, but we flew there, I -honestly don't know. I can't really tell you. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is the best estimate of the speed of your vehicle en -route from the shooting to the hospital? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't know. - -Senator COOPER. Let the record show that Congressman Ford has to go to -his official duties in the House and that I, Senator Cooper, am now -acting as Chairman. - -(At this point, Representative Ford left the hearing room.) - -Senator COOPER. Go ahead. - -Mr. SPECTER. Moving ahead, then, on to the sequences of time as best -you can recollect them, Mr. Kellerman, at what time was it ascertained -that the President had died and what was the basis of the pronouncement -of death. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That was on the death certificate, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you learn at or about 1 o'clock, while you were at -Parkland Hospital, that he had died? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I would think so. However, at that time let me say that -I wasn't watching any clock too closely and this time was given to me -by Dr. Burkley. - -Mr. SPECTER. Then you have no independent recollection of time at -Parkland when the death was announced or pronounced? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, then, you have specified the time of departure from -Parkland Hospital and en route back to Love Field at what, sir? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. We departed at 4 minutes after 2 from Parkland. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive at the President's plane? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. 2:14. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were your next activities? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Our next time, we had waited until Judge Sarah Hughes -had arrived for the swearing-in ceremonies. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time did the swearing-in ceremonies occur? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. 2:37 p.m. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what time did the plane depart from Dallas? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. We left at 2:48. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you present during the swearing-in ceremonies? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. In a general way, tell us who else was present there, -recognizing that you don't know all the people there. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. President Johnson, Mrs. Johnson, Mrs. Kennedy, -Malcolm Kilduff. He was the press secretary for that trip. Congressman -Thornberry, Congressman Thomas, Marie Fehmer, Mrs. Evelyn Lincoln, -Jack Valenti, Bill Moyers, Special Agent Johns. There was another -congressional man--I believe his name was Congressman Roberts--Brooks; -I am sorry; Congressman Brooks. The picture was taken by Capt. Cecil -Stoughton and myself. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time did the President's plane arrive back at the -Washington area? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. May I look at my notes, sir? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, you may. Identify for us, if you will, what notes you -are referring to. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. 5:58 p.m. This is my report. - -Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr. Kellerman has just referred -to a four-page report dated November 29, 1963, entitled "The -Assassination of President John F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963, at -Dallas, Tex.," which is a copy of a report he made, three of the sheets -being carbon copies, and one being a photostatic reproduction. So that -our record may be complete, let the record show that this is the same -report which Mr. Kellerman submitted to the Secret Service which was, -in turn, submitted by the Secret Service to the Commission, as one of -the statements in Exhibit 12, statement 11, which was furnished by -the Secret Service to the Commission as the report of the U.S. Secret -Service on the assassination of President Kennedy, under the exhibits -section. I will return that to you. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Fine; thank you. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were your activities; specifically where did you land -in the Washington area? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. We landed at Andrews Air Force Base. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were your activities then, immediately after landing -at Andrews? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. While en route from Dallas to Washington, D.C., I had -several telephone communications with my special agent in charge, -Gerald Behn, concerning this, transportation for the people aboard -the plane, an ambulance for the body of President Kennedy, and my -instructions. I was instructed to stay with the late President -Kennedy. Aboard this plane were agents of the 4-to-12 shift which, as -I mentioned earlier, was under the supervision of Mr. Stewart Stout; -a conference was held with Mr. Rufus Youngblood, who was in charge of -the Johnson detail at that time. He was informed that he would take -all the agents under Mr. Stout's supervision and they would remain with -them for the remainder of the day. That I would have Special Agents -Hill, Landis, Greer, and O'Leary. - -As we arrived at Andrews Air Force Base, arrangements were made prior -to having a lift brought up to the rear end of the plane, whereby all -the agents were requested by Mrs. Kennedy to carry this casket from the -plane to the ambulance. It was put aboard this carrier; from there we -took it from the carrier into the Navy ambulance. Mrs. Kennedy rode in -the back seat, or in the rear part of the ambulance, with Mr. Robert -Kennedy and General McHugh. - -In the front seat the ambulance was driven by Special Agent Greer, of -which Agents Landis and myself and Dr. Burkley rode in the front seat -to the U.S. Naval Hospital in Bethesda. At that point Navy officials -there instructed us where to take the ambulance, to what part of the -building, and remove the casket into the morgue facilities. - -As we landed in Andrews Air Force Base, I was met by our Chief, Mr. -James Rowley, who informed me that Mr. Sibert and Mr. O'Neill of the -FBI would join me at the Naval Hospital and to allow them in. I also -informed him that the vehicles--that is, the President's car and our -Secret Service followup car--are en route to Washington from Dallas, -and that he should assign some members from our Washington field office -to go over these cars for any evidence that might be left. In the -morgue, I should say that Special Agent Greer and myself remained all -night, Mr. O'Leary only briefly. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did the---- - -Mr. KELLERMAN. The family was placed---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did the family go? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. They were placed in a room in the tower section of the -Naval Hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you actually accompany the body from the vehicle to -the morgue room? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And were you present during the entire autopsy? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Tell us in a general way---- - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I only left on three different occasions. - -Mr. SPECTER. For how long were you absent on those occasions? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. A minute or two to make a phone call. - -Mr. SPECTER. While the autopsy was in session, or when did you leave on -those three occasions? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. OK. First I was informed by a Navy personnel that I -should call Mr. Rowley. There wasn't any phone--there was a phone in -the room, but I wasn't aware of it at the time. So, I left and walked -out into the corridor and called him. This was my first knowledge that -they had found a projectile. The second call, I think I called home; -that was my first call to home and that was it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, the projectile that you just referred to was found -where? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. This was the projectile that was reportedly given to our -Special Agent Richard Johnsen as we were leaving the hospital in Dallas. - -Mr. SPECTER. How did you find out about that? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. He says it was given to him by a security man or -security officer in the hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you first hear about it? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. The phone call with Mr. Rowley that morning after we had -got to the morgue. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time was this? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I am only guessing; 9 o'clock in the evening. - -Mr. SPECTER. Nine o'clock in the evening. You had said morning; you -didn't mean morning; you meant 9 o'clock in the evening when you had a -telephone call. From whom was the call again? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Rowley, Chief of Secret Service. - -Mr. SPECTER. You got the phone call from Mr. Rowley? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who had called him, if you know? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. This I don't know. - -Mr. SPECTER. But at that time Chief Rowley advised of the detection -of the bullet on the stretcher and brought you up to date with what -information was known at that time? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you described all the times that you were absent -from the room of the autopsy? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. The only other time that I was absent was when the -autopsy was about completed before the funeral directors were in, and -it was my decision to get Mr. Hill down and view this man for all the -damage that was done; so I went up to the floor where they were at and -brought him down and he inspected the incisions. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was your reason for that, Mr. Kellerman? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. More witnesses, Mr. Specter; I think more to view the -unfortunate happenings it would be a little better. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time did that autopsy start, as you recollect it? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Immediately. Immediately after we brought him right in. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time was that approximately, if you have a -recollection? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't have a recollection. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time did it end, if you recollect? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. We left the hospital for the White House at 3:56 in the -morning. - -Mr. SPECTER. 3:56 a.m. on November 23? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did the autopsy last all that time? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No. They were going to give these people a couple of -hours that they worked on them. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you observe, during the course of the autopsy, -bullet fragments which you might describe as little stars? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, of the numerous X-rays that were taken mainly of -the skull, the head. The reason for it was that through all the probing -which these gentlemen were trying to pick up little pieces of evidence -in the form of shell fragments, they were unable to locate any. From -the X-rays, when you placed the X-ray up against the light the whole -head looked like a little mass of stars, there must have been 30, 40 -lights where these pieces were so minute that they couldn't be reached. -However, all through this series of X-rays this was the one that they -found, through X-ray that was above the right eye, and they removed -that. - -Mr. SPECTER. How big a piece was that above the right eye, would you -say? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. The tip of a matchhead, a little larger. - -Senator COOPER. Let me ask a few questions. Mr. Kellerman, from what -you have just said, I think it would be correct that from the time you -began to assist in removing President Kennedy from his car to the time -you left him in the emergency room that you never saw any bullet on a -stretcher, either his stretcher or Governor Connally's stretcher? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I never saw any bullet, sir. - -Senator COOPER. I believe you testified that, at the time you heard -this first report, the President's car was approaching a viaduct? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Approaching, yes, but quite a little distance from it, -sir. - -Senator COOPER. Can you make any estimate as to how far away it was. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't know the footage, Senator Cooper. - -Senator COOPER. Can you see it? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; oh, yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Can you see the viaduct plainly? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Oh, yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Could you tell whether anybody was standing on top of -the viaduct, or did you observe? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I didn't notice anybody up there at all, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Did you observe whether anyone was in the immediate -vicinity of the viaduct? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Not at this distance; no. - -Senator COOPER. Do you have any--at the time of the shots, at the time -that you were conscious of these shots being fired, do you have any -judgment as to from what direction they came? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. None whatsoever. Except I should say again that when -this first one went off, which I indicated here that it sounded like -a firecracker to my right and, say, rear, I looked to my right to see -what it was. - -Senator COOPER. Then it would be correct to say it was your judgment at -the time, at the time of the report---- - -Mr. KELLERMAN. It was my judgment, sir. - -Senator COOPER. That it was to the right and to the rear? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That would be correct. It was my judgment, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Did you observe any persons standing to the right of -the car? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Maybe a handful. - -Senator COOPER. Did you see anything to indicate that any shot had been -fired by those persons? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; not at the time. - -Senator COOPER. When you heard the report and turned, could you see -this building known as the Texas Book Depository? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Not by name. You could see the building because we -passed right in front of it, sir. - -Senator COOPER. You didn't know it as the Texas Depository Building? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Not then, no, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Have you any idea how--what distance the President's -car traveled from the time you heard the first report until the time -you have described as hearing the flurry of shots? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I really don't know the distance. It wasn't too far. - -Senator COOPER. What? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. It wasn't too far. - -Mr. SPECTER. For the record, I have some more questions when we -reconvene. - -Senator COOPER. We will recess then until 2 o'clock. - -(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -Afternoon Session - -TESTIMONY OF ROY H. KELLERMAN, SPECIAL AGENT, SECRET SERVICE, RESUMED - - -The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m. - -Representative FORD. The Commission will come to order. - -Will you proceed, Mr. Specter? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, thank you. Mr. Kellerman, immediately before the -luncheon recess, Senator Cooper had asked some questions relating to -the presence of anyone on the triple overpass which was in front of -the President's car. Did you have any occasion, immediately before -or immediately after the shooting, to look for anyone on the triple -overpass or in that vicinity? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I really didn't. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you in a position to state, then, whether there was or -was not someone on the triple overpass? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I am in no position to state that. - -Mr. SPECTER. At the time of the shooting, did you observe any bullets -ricochet off of the windshield or off of any other part of the -automobile? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No. If any of the bullets ricocheted off the windshield -or front part of the car, this would have been matter that was blown -over mine and the driver's head from, I would say, the explosion of -President Kennedy's head. - -Mr. SPECTER. But aside from the portions of President Kennedy's head -which you have already testified about, you observed nothing detectable -as being bullet fragments or bullets? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Ricocheting off any part of the car? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you ever observe any bullet fragments in the car -at rest after the shooting? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe a priest at Parkland Hospital? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; there were two. - -Mr. SPECTER. And approximately what time were they present at the -hospital? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. When we brought President Kennedy into the emergency -room, the request for a priest was made immediately by one of the -members of the staff. I do not recall who called for one. However, in -the interim, a second call was sent out. Consequently, two showed; not -at the same time, but one after the other. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long were they at the hospital? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Just a matter of a couple of minutes of time. - -Mr. SPECTER. And do you know where they went upon arrival at the -hospital? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. They went right in the emergency room with the -President. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you in the emergency room at the time they were there? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And do you know what services, if any, they performed -while they were there? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any conversations with either of them while -they were en route, either coming or going? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the state of readiness of Parkland -Hospital at your arrival, how long after you got there were stretcher -bearers at the front door? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. To the best of my knowledge, there were no stretcher -bearers at the car--none. - -Mr. SPECTER. At your arrival? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did some come shortly after you arrived? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, what sequence did follow with respect to the arrival -of the stretchers? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. When we arrived at the hospital, I had called to the -agents to go inside and get two stretchers on wheels. Between those -people and police officers who also entered the emergency room, they -brought the stretchers out. I did not at any time see a man in a white -uniform outside, indicating a medical person. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you first see the first indication of a doctor? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. When we got in the emergency room itself proper. - -Mr. SPECTER. And do you know which doctor that was? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Not by name or sight; no, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. How many doctors did you see at that time? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. The room was full. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who were the individuals who brought the stretchers on -wheels, if you know? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Agents who were in the followup car, police officers who -were ahead of us on motorcycles. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, did you state how long the autopsy lasted -when you testified this morning? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I didn't. However, this is going to be an assumption -on time; I think I can pin it pretty well. - -Mr. SPECTER. Give us your best estimate on that, please. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Let's come back to the period of our arrival at Andrews -Air Force Base, which was 5:58 p.m. at night. By the time it took us -to take the body from the plane into the ambulance, and a couple of -carloads of staff people who followed us, we may have spent 15 minutes -there. And in driving from Andrews to the U.S. Naval Hospital, I would -judge, a good 45 minutes. So there is 7 o'clock. We went immediately -over, without too much delay on the outside of the hospital, into the -morgue. The Navy people had their staff in readiness right then. There -wasn't anybody to call. They were all there. So at the latest, 7:30, -they began to work on the autopsy. And, as I said, we left the hospital -at 3:56 in the morning. Let's give the undertaker people 2 hours. So -they were through at 2 o'clock in the morning. I would judge offhand -that they worked on the autopsy angle 4-1/2, 5 hours. - -Mr. SPECTER. And were you present when the funeral director's personnel -were preparing the body? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I was; yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And about what time, then, did they complete their work? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. They were all through at 3:30. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do immediately after they completed their -work? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. All right. Our communication between the Kennedy family -and staff, who were on another floor in the hospital, was in this -regard. We had telephone communication whereby we would tell them if -the body is ready to be taken out of the morgue and into the ambulance. -And they would hit the elevator and come right out the same way. So the -5 minutes it took to load the people in, we left the hospital morgue -part at least at 3:50, and, as I say, we were off at 3:56, driving to -the White House. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you go directly to the White House? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; we did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did that complete your tour of duty for that day? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, with respect to the time you were present at the -autopsy, was there any conversation of any sort concerning the -possibility of a point of entry from the front of the President's body? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. You have testified about the impression you had as to the -source of the first shot, which sounded to you like a firecracker. Did -you have any impression as to the source of the other shots, which you -described as being a flurry? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. If you will excuse me just a minute. I was trying to -elaborate on the last question. - -Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me. Go ahead. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Just for the record, I wish to have this down. While the -President is in the morgue, he is lying flat. And with the part of the -skull removed, and the hole in the throat, nobody was aware until they -lifted him up that there was a hole in his shoulder. That was the first -concrete evidence that they knew that the man was hit in the back first. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did they lift him up and first observe the hole in -the shoulder? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. They had been working on him for quite some time, -Mr. Specter--through the photos and other things they do through an -autopsy. And I believe it was this Colonel Finck who raised him and -there was a clean hole. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was said, if anything, by those present at the -autopsy concerning the wound in the throat? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. To go back just a little further, the reason for the -hole in the throat, the tracheotomy; I am thinking they were of the -opinion that when the--when he was shot in the head, and they had found -this piece remaining above the eye underneath; I am sure there was some -concern as to where the outlet was, and whether they considered--this -is all an assumption now; whether they considered this--that there was -a hole here in the throat prior to the tracheotomy, I don't know. But -to complete the examination, they lifted him up by the shoulders, and -there was this hole. Now, I think you asked me a question. Could you -repeat it, please? - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, let's be sure that we have your final answer on the -question of any conversation at all about a point of entry in the front -part of his body, in his throat, or any place else. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't believe, Mr. Specter, that it was ever concluded -that there was an entry in the front. - -Mr. SPECTER. Then that completes the conversations at the autopsy? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. On any of the subjects I have asked you about? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. - -Mr. SPECTER. The question which I had then started to ask you was -whether you had any impression at the time of the second and third -shots, which you described as a flurry of shots, as to the point of -origin or source of those shots. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. The only answer I can give to that is that they would -have to come from the rear. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, is that the impression or reaction you had at the -time of the flurry? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever, since the time of the assassination to this -date, had any contrary impression, reaction, or view that the shots -came from the front of the President? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, Mr. Kellerman, with respect to the immediate reaction -by you to the emergency situation, did you consider at any time leaving -your seat, on the right front of the President's automobile, to go into -the rear portion, where the President sat? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is the basis for--or what was the basis for your -conclusion on that? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. After I had heard President Kennedy's voice say, "My -God, I am hit," I viewed him, which was enough for me that he was. My -decision was to get this man to a hospital, because he needed medical -treatment. And during the few seconds that I instructed the driver to -get out of here, we are hit, my second instruction was to the man in -the lead car ahead of us for the same, to lead us to a hospital, that -we are hit. I then turn around, and I had two people injured. Not only -was the President down in his seat; the Governor was down in his seat. -My presence back there was gone. On top of that, I had Mr. Hill lying -across that trunk. - -Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean when you say, sir, that your presence -back there was gone? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. They were comfortable, if there is a comfort in this. -Mr. Hill was taking care of Mrs. Kennedy. Mrs. Connally was over the -Governor; there was no motion. The next thing was a doctor, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you consider presenting a further shield for the -President at that time? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did the metallic handhold which you described early in -your testimony as being about 15 inches off the top of the seat and -going all the way across the width of the car, did that metal structure -present any substantial impediment to your moving from the front seat -to the rear seat of the automobile? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, I think it would have been a small -obstacle. However, let me say this: If I thought in my own mind that -I was needed back there, there wouldn't have been an obstacle strong -enough to hold me. - -Mr. SPECTER. How about the presence of Governor Connally in the jump -seat? Would the presence of Governor Connally or any passenger in the -jump seat provide a substantial obstacle to your moving from your seat -to shield the President's body? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Not at all. It wouldn't have made any difference, sir. -Why? Because my job is to protect the President, sir, regardless of the -obstacles. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Greer at any time use the radio in your car? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, did the President's automobile at any time -slow down after the first shot? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No; not that I recall. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chairman, that completes our questions, sir. - -Representative FORD. As you turned from Houston onto Elm, you were then -facing the triple overpass? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. You were looking forward at the time? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. - -Representative FORD. You were not looking to the side particularly, or -back at all? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Don't let me change your thought, Mr. Congressman. But -as we turned left on Elm, there is also another curve before you get to -this overpass. - -Representative FORD. A rather slight curve to the right? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much. I still knew there was an overpass. - -Representative FORD. But your concentration was ahead? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Ahead. - -Representative FORD. Not to the side or to the rear? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No; not to the rear especially; that is true. Let me -explain a little more. When you are riding in this automobile, which -is with him, and on your right side, naturally you are observing more -on the right. It is obvious. However, you still have time periodically -to glance over to the left for viewing anything that might be of a -danger--whether it is people or any other object. - -Representative FORD. There is no way you would know from personal -observation in what direction the President was looking at the time he -was hit by the first shot? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; I would not. - -Representative FORD. Could you outline for us here the process by which -you were put in charge of this particular operation? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. - -Representative FORD. Can you outline for us the procedure that is -followed in such cases? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, indeed. As I said earlier, we have three -people, for a better word, in charge of the White House detail. Mr. -Behn--Gerald Behn--is the special agent in charge. There are two -assistants, Floyd Boring and myself. On all trips this was a divided -matter. And this one was my trip. Not that I picked it or anything. -It was my trip that Mr. Behn said, "You will make this one with the -President." The other two people would have other duties to do. And -this is how it fell on to me for that day, sir. - -Representative FORD. Once this assignment is made by Mr. Behn, what -happens after that? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. In regard to who, sir? - -Representative FORD. To your responsibilities. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. The overall. - -Representative FORD. In other words, from that assignment by Mr. Behn, -you take charge; you execute; you make assignments and so forth? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Only one thing. I am not going to say that I don't make -assignments. Mr. Congressman, these people all work in a team form. We -have three shifts. They work together for a long time, and to say this, -that they knew each other's footprints, is probably an overstatement. -But they know each other's methods. Let me go back just one step -further. I want to give it clear to you. - -Let's say the four or five stops that we had in Texas on this visit--we -had one overnight in Fort Worth. All right. Each time, each stop that -we make, the individual that we had sent out ahead to set up and -coordinate the program with the people in that area, whether it is -security or otherwise, through communications for the days he is away, -he keeps us abreast of what is going on, who to expect, and so forth. - -And, again, I should say that in the morning of the 22d in Fort Worth, -this lad called me--Mr. Lawson--asked about the top, whether it should -remain on or off, which decision was reached from Mr. O'Donnell. I then -asked him--I said, "Are we going to be all right in Dallas?" He said, -"Oh, yes; it is a good program." Fine. If and when we ever arrived at -that spot, I would ask this man, is there anything unusual when we get -here. That is a general question that I have given these people all the -time. - -Representative FORD. In other words, once the assignment has been made -that you handle this trip, and in this case there was first a stop at -El Paso, then at Houston---- - -Mr. KELLERMAN. San Antonio. - -Representative FORD. San Antonio; then Houston, Fort Worth. You stayed -overnight at Fort Worth? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. - -Representative FORD. Then you proceeded to Dallas on the 22d? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Correct; yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. As I understand it, when you arrived at San -Antonio, the man that is in charge there, you immediately contacted. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, indeed. - -Representative FORD. When you go to Houston, the same process? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Fort Worth, the same? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Fine. - -Representative FORD. And when you got to Dallas, when you arrived -there, whom did you see first? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Lawson. - -Representative FORD. And what did he tell you? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. He said, "Your program is all set. We have all the -equipment and there should be no problem here." Fine. - -Let me go back to Fort Worth again. On that night we had an overnight. -The gentleman we had working that stop had an added thing thrown into -him, which was the speech before breakfast. The President spoke to a -crowd across the main street in front of the hotel. After the President -retired that night, he and I went down to that parking lot. I said, -show me where this man is going to be, where the platform is going to -be, where are you going to have all these folks, and how close are they -going to be; show me. He did. - -You have got to keep abreast of these things, Mr. Congressman. Well, it -is your job. - -Representative FORD. Were all of these men that had charge of these -various operations in San Antonio, Houston, Fort Worth, Dallas, men of -experience? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much; very much so. I want to give you a little -information on how these people are selected for doing your advance -work out of Washington. In the first place, when they are brought in, -you instruct them on everything you do securitywise around the White -House. You instruct them in rangework, followup car work, every little -phase entailed. Then say you have a little movement in town--the -President has a press conference, as an example. He doesn't do that. -Send him with an older fellow. Even if he just walks around, learn it. -Take him another place, a departure from an airport, or a theater. Give -him four or five. Then give him one, give him a little departure at -an airport, or a hotel. But have somebody with him. Then there is no -mistake made. - -Representative FORD. Now, when these men are assigned to handle the -responsibilities in a particular city, such as Lawson in Dallas, is -Lawson on the staff here or is he a man from Dallas with the Secret -Service? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. These are all people we have in the White House detail, -sir. - -Representative FORD. In other words, Lawson was a White House detail -man from Washington? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Right, sir. He is one of the men off those three shifts. - -Representative FORD. Now, when was your assignment made as the man in -charge of this particular operation? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Oh, I am going to say a week ahead, for lack of a better -time--in fact, I knew that much of it. - -Representative FORD. November---- - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Say the 17th, for a better day. - -Representative FORD. On or before November 17th you got this assignment. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Surely. I knew that I was making a trip, and none of the -other two gentlemen were. - -Representative FORD. What did you do after you got this -assignment--what steps did you take? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. OK. The steps that I took--this entails work right -here in Washington. First, to determine, to staff people in the White -House, who is all going to make it, who are the passengers. This is a -thing that those advance people out in the field do not know when they -leave. You set up the time schedule--flight time--because the people -on the other end want you there at 11:30 in the morning, you have to -work back a flight time from Washington, or the helicopter time from -the White House. All this is incorporated. Weatherwise--you will use an -automobile. Allow a little more time. All right. - -From the people that are out in the field on those 4 or 5 different -spots, they are the ones that coordinate with the local folks what -program they would like, which is forwarded back, conferred with staff -people, whether it is approved, disapproved, added, or cut out. And -about the day before you leave, then it is all gelled. - -Representative FORD. But this is your principal responsibility, to pull -everything together. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. - -Representative FORD. Now, according to the various reports we have, -when you know you are going to a particular city, or several cities, -you have a method or a procedure to check to see if there are any -individuals or organizations that present a serious threat to the -President. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. We have what we call a Protective Research -Section. This has been in existence for many years, through Roosevelt's -days--I will go back that far. Through the combined efforts of various -sources, through other agencies, they have a file on all the, let's -say dangerous, for a better word, people that could be suspected in -the city he arrives in. They will furnish the agents on those three -shifts, if there are a number of them, or even one--it doesn't make any -difference--all the data possible on that person--it will be given to -each shift. It is a report form; can be read by all. And, if possible, -there is a photograph included. That will be circulated around. - -Representative FORD. Now, when you got your assignment on or about -November 17, what did you do in this regard? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. One little thing I should say. Well, I am sorry. One -of the first things we do, when a trip is planned, is make a call on -that PRS Section and tell them, "On November 21 we are going to be in -San Antonio, Houston, and Fort Worth. On the 22d we will be in Dallas, -Austin, and at the ranch." And they take it from there, sir. - -Representative FORD. So, on or about November 22d, you made this -inquiry. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. This inquiry, sir, would be made a week ahead of time. - -Representative FORD. A week ahead of the date that you were appointed? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That's right. - -Representative FORD. Who would make that inquiry? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That would be made by any one of the three people--Mr. -Behn, Mr. Boring, or myself, or one other person which I interrupted -you a second ago. A departure is given to one man from one of the -shifts who would set up a departure from the White House to Andrews. -He, too, in turn notifies our Protective Research Section of this thing. - -Representative FORD. Well, do you know who in this case for this trip -made that inquiry of the Protective Research Section? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't have the name right now. - -Representative FORD. Would there be a record of that made? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. I think we ought to have that for the record--the -time it was made. You don't recall making it yourself, however. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No. - -The CHAIRMAN. Do you know if it was actually done? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. It is always done, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. I know. But do you know if it was done in this case? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Not for a fact; no. - -Representative FORD. But you must assume it was done. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much so. - -Representative FORD. Were you given the information from this inquiry, -even though you didn't make it yourself? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. What kind of information, sir? - -Representative FORD. Well, about those people who are considered -dangerous or a problem in any one of these four or five cities where -the President was going on this trip. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I will have to check this, but there was no record. - -Representative FORD. In other words---- - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No information. - -Representative FORD. In other words, PRS never turned over to you -any information about any dangerous individuals in any one of these -communities on this trip. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That's right. - -Representative FORD. Is this unusual? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. But let me reserve the right to recheck that -question again; may I? - -Representative FORD. Absolutely. All we want in this case, as in any -other, are whatever the facts are to the best of records that are -available. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. All right. - -Representative FORD. In the report from the Secret Service it says, -and I quote, "Because of the incidents on the occasion of the visit of -Ambassador Stevenson to Dallas earlier in the fall, special attention -was given to extremist groups known to be active in Dallas. Appendix A -describes the action taken in Dallas in more detail." Were you familiar -with that part of the Secret Service activity prior to your departure -for Texas? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I have knowledge of that; yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. How much knowledge? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. But not enough to be written up, that I recall, sir. - -Representative FORD. Well, could you describe for the Commission what -knowledge you did have in this regard? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. The only knowledge I can describe to you, sir, is the -fact that we were aware of what this Ambassador went through down -there. However, we had no information that such an incident would -happen to President Kennedy on his trip into that State. - -Representative FORD. But I gather from this report, which is the -official report of the Treasury Department, that somebody knew of these -previous incidents, and was thereby alerted to the possibility of--the -potential of one, because the report says, "Special attention is given -to extremist groups known to be in Dallas." Now, could you tell us what -special attention was given? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No. Outside of the fact that everybody was alerted to -this previous incident. - -Representative FORD. PRS, Protective Research Section, didn't tell -you, as the person in charge, of any individuals or of any groups that -wanted special attention? I am using "special attention" as in the -report. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Right as of this minute, the only knowledge that I have -of any incident that could happen was in San Antonio, when I believe we -had information of some pickets. Now, those pickets showed up outside -of--he made a speech at that space hospital. Well, anyway, in view of -that, I cannot reach the name right now--these pickets were out at, -let's say, the main gate to the grounds, and just stayed right there -with their placards. - -Representative FORD. Also on the report it says, "In accordance with -the usual practice, the local FBI office informed the local Secret -Service office of any information which affected the President's visit." - -Mr. KELLERMAN. They did. That is the normal practice. - -Representative FORD. That was the normal procedure? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. It is always the normal procedure; yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Now, whom would they have informed in this case in -Dallas? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Their report would have come to Washington, and relayed -to our Protective Research Section. - -Representative FORD. And the FBI in this instance gave you what -information, if any, that you should relay back to the people---- - -Mr. KELLERMAN. The only thing I can recall right now, sir, are those -pickets in San Antonio. - -Representative FORD. Well, may I say if on your return to your office -you find any information on this particular point, I think it would be -very helpful for the record, and it should be included in the record. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. All right. I surely will. - -Representative FORD. The report also says, "On October 30, 1963, the -local FBI office gave the local Secret Service officer the name of a -rightwing individual in the Dallas area. An investigation was made. -On November 21 and 22 the local FBI office referred two pieces of -information to the local Dallas office of the Secret Service." Were you -familiar with that? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No. - -Representative FORD. Who would, under your normal procedures, have been -familiar with that? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. It would be the same organization, Protective Research -Section. - -Representative FORD. But they did not give you any information of this. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No. - -Representative FORD. Is this unusual or different? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. If they evaluated this information, there would have to -be a degree of seriousness. - -Representative FORD. But, as far as you can best recollect at this -point, you were never so informed. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, indeed. - -Representative FORD. The report does go on to say, and I quote, "One -involved scurrilous literature already in the hands of the Secret -Service, Exhibit 4. The second involved possible picket trouble which -the local police were aware of." That is the picket trouble you were -talking about? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Apparently so. - -Representative FORD. The report also says on page 8, "Special Agent -Lawson, SAIC Sorrel, and Special Agent Howlett met with Dallas -law-enforcement officials. Special Agent Howlett also met with an -informant. They followed up all leads and tips and checked scurrilous -literature, Exhibit 4." Did you have any information personally about -this activity by Lawson, Sorrel, and Howlett? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. - -Representative FORD. Was it their responsibility to do it, to undertake -that kind of an operation? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Everybody but Lawson. These other two gentlemen you are -speaking of are field agents out of Dallas. Yes; they would investigate -the seriousness of this thing, through the information furnished by -the FBI. And, depending on the degree now, this would be furnished our -Protective Research Section here in Washington. - -Representative FORD. Now, did Lawson or anybody else communicate to you -what was going on in this regard? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, no. I do not think Mr. Lawson got in this -investigative part at all. It would not be any part of his duties. - -Representative FORD. I am only reading from the report. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. - -Representative FORD. And the report goes on to say, "Their -investigations did not bring to light the name or the individual Lee H. -Oswald, and he or his name was not known to them or any other Secret -Service agent in Dallas or elsewhere prior to this shooting of the -President." Would that be the same as far as you are concerned? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is very true. - -Representative FORD. You did not know of Lee H. Oswald? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. None whatsoever. - -Representative FORD. Was it surprising to you that when the President -was going to a city as large as Dallas, that there were no names turned -over to you, either by your Protective Research Section or by any other -Federal agents--individuals or an individual dangerous to the President? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I recall, to give you an answer, Congressman, that it -did seem strange that here we are hitting five cities in one State -and--and from the apparent trouble Ambassador Stevenson had down there -one evening, we certainly should have had some information on somebody. - -Representative FORD. Hypothetically, if you go to other large -metropolitan areas, do you normally get names from various agencies, -including PRS, warning you of an individual or groups that might cause -trouble? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Again I say that our PRS would recheck their files, -from all the cities--from all the cases that they have in that city, -and furnished us information, whether a report or photographwise. -They in turn would--and I believe I am correct on this--they in turn -notify the Bureau of this visit, or may have people check through their -files. They can doublecheck this stuff. I don't recall any information -whatsoever, except that picket thing. - -Representative FORD. It is surprising to me, as well, and I gather it -was certainly, on reflection, surprising to you---- - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; it is. - -Representative FORD. Was this in itself any warning to you that there -might be some breakdown in the system? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Gee--no; I never cherished that thought, sir. - -Representative FORD. You assumed that the proper liaison between -various agencies was taking place, and your PRS was operating -effectively? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Oh, yes; very much; yes indeed. Now, if I am wrong, when -I check these two questions back here, I will let you know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Congressman Ford, on this line, perhaps I should say that -organizationally we are divided into phases where this is a separate -phase in terms of protective devices. So, for the prepared part of what -the staff has set up, we have by design omitted that portion here, with -later witnesses to go into all these questions in some detail for the -Commission. - -Representative FORD. I was trying to get from Mr. Kellerman--from his -testimony he was indicating that he was the person who from on or about -November 17 had the responsibility. And I was trying to trace precisely -how this responsibility was carried through, up to the point where you -started out this morning. Do I understand, then, that at some later -point in the Commission hearings with other witnesses we will go back -into the process of how these decisions are made, as far as PRS is -concerned? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir. There will be detailed witnesses on the workings -of PRS, and how they functioned with respect to this trip, and what -information the FBI had or the State Department had about Lee Harvey -Oswald, and whatever coordination, if any, was present. Our thought was -that that would be handled separately, organizationally. Certainly, to -some extent it is impossible to draw sharp lines of distinction here. -But that is the way the staff has prepared the distinctions--with Mr. -Kellerman going more specifically, as the other witnesses of today, on -the sequence of events themselves at the assassination. - -Representative FORD. But, as far as the procedures within PRS and the -relationship between the Secret Service, the FBI, and other Federal -agencies, that will come up later on in other witnesses who are more -familiar with the precise workings. - -Mr. SPECTER. Exactly; yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Who actually had the responsibility to check the -route from the airport to the Trade Mart? I mean to check the route, -lay out whatever security precautions should be taken from the outset -until the day of the President's visit? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That was coordinated, Mr. Congressman, between Mr. -Lawson and members of the Dallas Police Department, sir. - -Representative FORD. You did not arrive in Dallas until the morning of -the assassination? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; that is correct, sir. - -Representative FORD. As you were in the car, in the right front seat, -and the car turned from Main Street right into Houston, you had for a -relatively short period of time an opportunity to look at the Texas -School Depository Building. Did you look at it; did you notice anything -about it? What was your reaction, if any, to that particular building? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Not knowing the name of the building--let me say this: -When you are driving down this street, regardless of Houston or which, -and you have buildings on either side of you, you are going to scan -your eyes up and down this building. - -Representative FORD. Did this building create, as you turned into -Houston Street, any particular problem that would have alerted you one -way or another? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. None whatsoever. It did not produce a thing. - -Representative FORD. Your eyes scanned the area. Did they scan -sufficiently to identify anything, to be alerted by anything in any -window, on the roof, or anyplace else? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. - -Representative FORD. Did Mr. Lawson or anybody else indicate to you at -any time that the Book Depository Building was a problem? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. - -Representative FORD. I mean beforehand. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Never mentioned it. - -Representative FORD. Did Mr. Lawson or anybody else discuss with you -any particular danger involved in the overpass, the triple overpass? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. - -Representative FORD. Did you have minute knowledge as to the route in -Dallas, or was that left up to Lawson in his judgment? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Left up to Lawson and the people in Texas. - -Representative FORD. But he did tell you when you arrived in Dallas; -what, again? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. And the people in Texas, the police department. - -Representative FORD. What did he tell you? When you arrived in Dallas -that morning, he told you something. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. He said, "This is your reception committee, -which is at the bottom of the ramp leading out." I said, "Are we all -right in Dallas here all the way for today?" And he said, "Yes; this -will be fine." I said, "All right; let's get on with it." - -Representative FORD. When were you first interviewed by anyone -regarding the directions from which the shots came? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't recall ever being interviewed. - -Representative FORD. Did you ever make a statement for submission to -the Commission or to your supervisors? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Just this statement that I submitted here. - -Representative FORD. Which is included in the Secret Service report. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Did you have anything to do with setting up the -method of trying to apprehend the alleged assassin? Was that outside or -within your jurisdiction? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Outside, sir. - -Representative FORD. You did nothing in that regard. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Nothing. - -Representative FORD. I believe that is all. I have to go back to a very -important committee meeting, Mr. Chairman. I may be able to get back -later, Mr. Chief Justice. - -The CHAIRMAN. I will be here the rest of the afternoon, so there will -be no necessity of your coming back if you are tied up. Thank you very -much for presiding all day. - -Mr. Specter, have you some more questioning? - -Mr. SPECTER. I have just one or two other questions. - -Mr. Kellerman, you referred to a single statement which you said you -had made. In the report of the U.S. Secret Service on the assassination -of President Kennedy, on Exhibit 12, statement 11--we have the first -statement which you made, which is four pages, and that is the one to -which you referred, to refresh your recollection earlier today, and I -show you what appears to be a second very brief report which you made 1 -day later under date of November 30, 1963, with your name and initials, -and ask you if you made this one, also. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. You referred to you and Mr. Boring being the -two assistant special agents in charge. Is that status the same at the -present time, or are there now three assistant special agents in charge? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. There are three. Mr. Rufus Youngblood is the third one. - -Mr. SPECTER. Has that slight shift been made since the time of the -assassination. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, those are my only additional questions, -sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Craig, would you like to ask any questions, or do you -think of any other avenue that we should explore here? - -Mr. CRAIG. No, sir; thank you, Mr. Chief Justice. As the interrogation -has progressed, I have been handing notes to counsel and he has been -very kind in asking those questions. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Murray, can you think of anything? - -Mr. MURRAY. No, thank you, Mr. Chief Justice. - -Mr. SMITH. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. CRAIG. Mr. Kellerman, is there any special agent in charge of the -protection of the person next in line in succession, to your knowledge? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. I think Mr. Rowley would like to man that. I think they -have had a little difficulty to find a man. - -Mr. CRAIG. There is no such person now? - -Mr. KELLERMAN. No, they have made numerous attempts with the people, -and so far they have got a negative reply. - -The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mr. Kellerman, thank you very much, sir, for your -attendance and for your testimony. - -Mr. KELLERMAN. Thank you, sir. - -(At this point, Representative Ford left the hearing room.) - -The CHAIRMAN. Now, Mr. Specter. - -Mr. SPECTER. We will call Mr. Greer. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Greer, how do you, sir. - -Mr. Greer, will you raise your right hand and be sworn. - -Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing -but the truth before this Commission, so help you God? - -Mr. GREER. I do. - -The CHAIRMAN. Would you be seated, please. - - -TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM ROBERT GREER, SPECIAL AGENT, SECRET SERVICE - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please. - -Mr. GREER. William Robert Greer. - -Mr. SPECTER. By whom are you employed, Mr. Greer? - -Mr. GREER. The Treasury Department, Secret Service Division of the -Treasury Department. - -Mr. SPECTER. How old are you at the present time? - -Mr. GREER. Fifty-four years old. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been with the Secret Service Department? - -Mr. GREER. I have been with the Secret Service Department since October -1, 1945. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your educational background? - -Mr. GREER. I have just education in public schools in Ireland, really. - -Mr. SPECTER. And---- - -Mr. GREER. I took courses here in this country. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you a high school graduate, then? - -Mr. GREER. Well, I have 2 years of high school. - -Mr. SPECTER. And when did you complete this educational background? - -Mr. GREER. I have to go back now. - -Mr. SPECTER. Approximately. - -Mr. GREER. About 1924 or 1925. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline in a general way what your activities -have been since that time, up until your joining the Secret Service, -please? - -Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. I was born and raised on farmwork, a farmer. And -I done that until I came to this country in February 1930. I worked -for a period of time--I lived in Boston for a little while. I worked -one summer on the estate of Henry Cabot Lodge. I was a chauffeur for a -family in Brookline, Mass., for about a year. And then I went to New -York, Dobbs Ferry, N.Y. I lived there for 13 years as a chauffeur for a -private family in Dobbs Ferry, N.Y. Then I went in the Navy in November -1942. I got discharged on September 18, 1945. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were your principal duties while in the Navy? - -Mr. GREER. I was seaman first class. I did almost 2 years at -Bainbridge, Md., with the seaman guard there. And then I was assigned -to the presidential yacht in May 1944, until I was discharged in -September. But most of my duty was at the White House in that period, -that year. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how long after discharge from the Navy was it before -you joined the U.S. Secret Service? - -Mr. GREER. Well, I got out of the Navy September 18 and October 1 I -went with the Secret Service--a matter of 14 or 15 days. - -Mr. SPECTER. Describe your duties since joining the Secret Service, -please. - -Mr. GREER. Since joining the Secret Service I was assigned to the -uniform force at first with the Secret Service at the Bureau of -Engraving and Printing. For about 2 years I was with the physical -education part of it. We had a gymnasium there. I was an instructor -there part-time--part of the time. And then I was assigned for about 2 -years to pick up the food of the President at the White House. I had -that duty for about 2 years. And then I went back to the Treasury for -a short period, a few months. And then I was reassigned to the White -House as an agent in November--1950 I went, there. I was made a full -agent that following August 1951. I was there as a special officer from -November to August 1951. - -Mr. SPECTER. And have you been assigned to the White House staff since -that time? - -Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I have been there ever since. - -Mr. SPECTER. And while assigned at the White House staff, how much of -your duty has involved driving the President's car? - -Mr. GREER. Well, I drove the followup car for quite a long time--you -know, off and on. And then I drove the President at intervals -during President Truman's and President Eisenhower's terms. I was -also assigned a great many times to Mrs. Eisenhower. When she left -Washington, I was always assigned to her, to travel with her. And I -have been assigned to the President, to drive the President, since -election day, with President Kennedy. I was the senior agent assigned -to him, to drive him. - -Mr. SPECTER. How did you get to Dallas yourself back on November 22, -1963? - -Mr. GREER. I flew--I was on a plane with the President all during the -trip. And I flew from Fort Worth to Dallas that morning. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, I hand you documents which have been marked -Commission Exhibits 344, 345, and 346. I ask you if you can identify -those, starting with 344, what that depicts. - -Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I can identify this automobile very well. That is -the 1961 Lincoln, especially built for the President. And this is a -rear view of that same automobile. This is the interior of that Lincoln -Continental. Yes, sir, everything is very positive that I can identify. - -Mr. SPECTER. How did that automobile--how was that automobile -transported to Texas? - -Mr. GREER. It was flown there in a C-130. - -Mr. SPECTER. And do you know where it was flown to? - -Mr. GREER. Well, it was flown--let's see, I forget the day before where -our first stop was on that trip right now. I would have to go back into -my papers. But we used I believe more than one stop. I am trying to -think where we used it before we went to Dallas. It could have been at -Houston. I am not too sure whether we used it at Houston the day before -or not. I would have to go back in my records. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is it possible the first time you used the automobile on -that Texas trip was at Dallas? - -Mr. GREER. Right now it is so long ago, I have almost forgotten whether -we did use it at Houston prior to that or not. I am not too sure where -the first stop was. We sometimes use it more than one stop. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is there any covering which can be put on the President's -automobile? - -Mr. GREER. There is--when we put the plastic--I put the plastic on it, -we have a black canvass-type cover that buttons over the top of the -plastic. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you please describe in a general way the plastic -covering you just referred to. - -Mr. GREER. The plastic covering is made in six pieces. Three of -them--there are two corner pieces and a centerpiece on the back that -we fasten together before we set it up onto the car. Then there is a -front--one piece that goes across the front seat after that. Then the -last pieces we put on are two that go in the center, and they meet -together in the center--they come together in the center. That makes -the six pieces that it comes down in. We have to break it down in the -six pieces to store it in the trunk. It is kept in the trunk of the car -whenever we are not using it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are the three pieces that you described as being joined -together for the rear portion disassembled at all times? - -Mr. GREER. We disassemble them to store them in the trunk, yes, sir. -But we put them together on the floor, on the ground or something like -that--we put the three pieces together, then we lift it up and set it -in place, which covers the back seat of the car. - -Mr. SPECTER. And after you put the three pieces together for the back -portion of the car, how many additional pieces are there for the -balance of the car? - -Mr. GREER. Three; three more pieces. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how are they secured to the automobile itself? - -Mr. GREER. They are secured with--I don't know what you would call -it--these fasteners, snaps, kind of snaps that snap on them. We have -them made that way so that we can install them or take them apart very -fast. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, is this cover transparent? Can it be seen through? - -Mr. GREER. The plastic; yes. You can see through it. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is the plastic made of, if you know? - -Mr. GREER. Well, it is a type of plastic. I just don't know who -manufactures it. But it is clear plastic. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is it bulletproof or bullet resistant? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir. It is weather--the idea back of it was for -inclement weather, that the President could be seen if the weather was -too bad to have him outside. That is what we had in mind originally -with it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any personal knowledge of any efforts made to -obtain a bulletproof or bullet-resistant transparent top? - -Mr. GREER. Now, or before that? - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, start beforehand. - -Mr. GREER. No; I never had anything to do with that at all. I never had -anything to do with anything being made for that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what efforts have been made subsequent to -the assassination of President Kennedy to obtain such a bulletproof -transparent top? - -Mr. GREER. Only just hearing conversation; nothing definite; no, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Approximately what time, to the best of your recollection, -did President Kennedy arrive in Dallas on November 22? - -Mr. GREER. I would have to--I would not tell you right now. I would -have to go back and look into my--you probably have it there. I have it -also on my report. - -Mr. SPECTER. If you don't recall the exact time, just give us your best -estimate. - -Mr. GREER. Approximately 11:35. I am guessing. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what was his mode of transportation into Dallas? - -Mr. GREER. He flew on an Air Force plane. - -Mr. SPECTER. And where did he fly from? - -Mr. GREER. From Fort Worth to Dallas. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you tell us in a general way what he did upon arrival -in Dallas at Love Field? - -Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. He got off the plane. He walked along the fence -along there, and shook hands with a great many people. There was a -large crowd there. He and Mrs. Kennedy both walked along and shook -hands with many people. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, approximately how long after arrival at Love Field -did he get into his automobile? - -Mr. GREER. I would guess probably, say, approximately maybe 10 minutes. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were the weather conditions like that day as he got -into his automobile? - -Mr. GREER. The weather was very nice that day. It was a beautiful day -in Dallas, very fine day, warm, fairly warm, nice day. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was the car open? - -Mr. GREER. The car was open; no top. - -Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how many automobiles were there in that -motorcade? - -Mr. GREER. I wouldn't have--couldn't tell you right now how many. There -was quite a few cars. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who were the occupants of the President's car? - -Mr. GREER. On the back seat, on the right rear seat, the President, -Mrs. Kennedy on the left rear seat, Governor Connally was on the right -jump seat, and Mrs. Connally was on the left jump seat. Mr. Kellerman -was riding on the right front, and I was driving. - -Mr. SPECTER. At what speed did you travel as you proceeded at various -points from Love Field, say, down into the downtown area of Dallas? - -Mr. GREER. Well, we traveled at various speeds, according to the amount -of people, the crowd. If it was--if we came to a large crowd, we would -have to slow down. I would say, to probably 10 to 15 miles an hour. -Then we would pick it up possibly 25 or somewhere around--25 maybe to -30, where there was few people. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the maximum speed at which you drove from the -time you left Love Field until the time you got to downtown Dallas? - -Mr. GREER. I wouldn't have the slightest idea now, after this length of -time. I could not say how much it would be. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us your best estimate on the minimum speed -from the time you left Love Field until the time you arrived at -downtown Dallas? - -Mr. GREER. The minimum speed traveling at all would probably be 10 to -15 miles an hour. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what sort of crowds were along the way? - -Mr. GREER. There was large crowds--at some places there was quite large -crowds. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did anything unusual occur en route from Love Field to the -downtown area of Dallas? - -Mr. GREER. Well, I think--it may have been--we may have stopped one -time where he got out--didn't get out, but he stopped and spoke to some -young people, I believe, en route. I think there may have been a group -of people there. - -Mr. SPECTER. I hand you a photograph which has already been marked -Commission Exhibit No. 347 and ask you if at this time you are able to -identify what that photograph depicts. - -Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. That is the photograph of the route that we -traveled in Dallas. - -Mr. SPECTER. I show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No. 348 -and ask you if you can identify what that picture represents. - -Mr. GREER. With pictures that I have seen since then, I would recognize -that as the Book Depository Building in Dallas--the street in front of -it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you familiar with the name of this street, which has -since been marked by Mr. Kellerman, who identified this exhibit and -marked the name of the street on it? - -Mr. GREER. No, I wasn't at the time, but I know now that it is supposed -to be Main Street. - -Mr. SPECTER. And do you know in what general direction Main Street -proceeds? - -Mr. GREER. I am not too sure. No; I wouldn't really know. I didn't have -enough time. - -Mr. SPECTER. And are you familiar with the street which intersects with -Main---- - -Mr. GREER. Houston Street. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what street did you turn off of from Houston? - -Mr. GREER. Houston to Elm Street. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, as you were proceeding down Main Street, which I will -add is in a generally westerly direction, what is your best estimate of -your speed as you turned the corner right onto Houston Street? - -Mr. GREER. I would estimate the speed was somewhere between 12 to 15 -miles per hour, coming through there. - -Mr. SPECTER. And as you made that right-hand turn onto Houston Street, -what was the composition of the crowds along the way, if any? - -Mr. GREER. On Main Street there were very, very large crowds. They were -almost close up against the automobile. Sometimes the motorcycles on -the sides could not even get through. They were real close to us. And -very large crowds. And when we got around on Houston Street, the crowds -thinned out quite a lot. My recollection here is that there wasn't too -many people on Elm Street--a few scattered people at that point. - -Mr. SPECTER. And your finger indicated there the position near the -Texas School Depository Building? - -Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, you have described motorcycles. How many were present -with the President's automobile, if any? - -Mr. GREER. I could not tell the exact amount of motorcycles that were -escorting us at that time. We usually do have them on the two front -fenders and two rear fenders, and some probably preceding that, and -some along the motorcade behind us. I could not tell you exactly how -many there probably would be. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect that there were some on this occasion, -however? - -Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; there were motorcycles. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, do you know how many cars back your car was in the -motorcade? - -Mr. GREER. No; I don't know how many police cars were ahead of us. I -knew that the lead car was right directly ahead of me, with one of our -agents, or maybe two, and the chief of police in that car. But how many -police cars prior to that, I do not know how many there were at the -time in front of us. - -Mr. SPECTER. How far ahead of you was that police car as you turned off -of Main Street onto Houston? - -Mr. GREER. I usually allow 4 or 5 car lengths, if possible, between the -car and myself, in case that there is any reason to speed up quick. I -like to leave enough room that I can get out of there. I don't like to -get too tight to the lead car when possible--unless the crowds are so -big that I have to get in or they would close in on me--I have to get -in closer. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how far behind you the first car immediately -behind yours was? - -Mr. GREER. The car behind me was only some few feet, because with our -training and all, we stay very, very close to the President's car. -Sometimes we are bumper to bumper. And the car never is much more than -10 to 12 feet away from the President's car, at slow speeds. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you endeavor to maintain a constant speed in the -operation of the President's car so as to avoid contact with this -close gap between the President's car and the President's follow-up -automobile? - -Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. We tried to drive at a very steady speed. We are -used to driving with each other, and we almost can tell each other's -thoughts what we do, because of the training we have had, and we work -so long together. We drive at a steady pace of speed, so that we give -each other enough ample time to stop or move in close. - -Mr. SPECTER. After turning off Main onto Houston, did you have any -opportunity to take a look at the building which you have since -identified as the Texas School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir. I had not any chance to look much at that building -at all. When I made the turn into Elm Street, I was watching the -overpass expressway--the overpass, or what was ahead of me. I always -look at any--where I go underneath anything, I always watch above, so -if there is anyone up there that I can move so that I won't go over the -top of anyone, if they are unidentified to me, unless it is a policeman -or something like that. We try to avoid going under them. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, when you turned off of Houston onto Elm, did you make -a right-hand or a left-hand turn? - -Mr. GREER. I made a right-hand turn off of Main onto Houston. - -Mr. SPECTER. And when you turned from Houston onto Elm, was that a -right-hand or a left-hand turn? - -Mr. GREER. That was a left-hand turn. - -Mr. SPECTER. And as you turned onto Elm Street, how far, to the best of -your ability to estimate, was your automobile from the overpass which -you have just described? - -Mr. GREER. I wouldn't have a distance recollection at all on how far it -was. It wasn't too far. I just could not give you the distance. - -Mr. SPECTER. At that time, did you make a conscious effort to observe -what was present, if anything, on that overpass? - -Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. I was making sure that I could not see anyone that -might be standing there, and I didn't see anything that I was afraid of -on the overpass. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anything at all on the overpass? - -Mr. GREER. Not that I can now remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your best recollection of the speed at which you -were traveling as you turned left off of Houston onto Elm? - -Mr. GREER. My best recollection would be between 12 and 15 miles per -hour. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how far were you at that time behind the police car -which was in front of you? - -Mr. GREER. Probably 50 feet maybe--approximately. I will say -approximately 50 feet. - -Mr. SPECTER. As you turned onto Elm, did you have any opportunity to -observe how far behind you the President's follow-up car was? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir. I was not looking in my mirror; I could not say how -far it was behind me at the time. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what was the nature of the crowd as you made the turn -onto Elm Street, if you recall? - -Mr. GREER. To the best of my memory, the crowd had thinned out a great -deal, and there was not too many people in front of that building. - -Mr. SPECTER. How many lanes of travel were there on Elm Street? - -Mr. GREER. It was either three or four lanes wide. I have forgotten. - -Mr. SPECTER. In what portion of the street were you traveling? - -Mr. GREER. I was right in the center of the street. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe for us the contour of the street at -that point--whether it was level, hilly, or what. - -Mr. GREER. It was starting to go down--gradually going down toward this -underpass. It was a down grade. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you tell us just what occurred as you were -proceeding down Elm Street at that time? - -Mr. GREER. Well, when we were going down Elm Street, I heard a noise -that I thought was a backfire of one of the motorcycle policemen. And -I didn't--it did not affect me like anything else. I just thought that -it is what it was. We had had so many motorcycles around us. So I heard -this noise. And I thought that is what it was. And then I heard it -again. And I glanced over my shoulder. And I saw Governor Connally like -he was starting to fall. Then I realized there was something wrong. I -tramped on the accelerator, and at the same time Mr. Kellerman said to -me, "Get out of here fast." And I cannot remember even the other shots -or noises that was. I cannot quite remember any more. I did not see -anything happen behind me any more, because I was occupied with getting -away. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, how many shots, or how many noises have you just -described that you heard? - -Mr. GREER. I know there was three that I heard--three. But I cannot -remember any more than probably three. I know there was three anyway -that I heard. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an independent recollection at this moment of -having heard three shots at that time? - -Mr. GREER. I knew that after I heard the second one, that is when I -looked over my shoulder, and I was conscious that there was something -wrong, because that is when I saw Governor Connally. And when I turned -around again, to the best of my recollection there was another one, -right immediately after. - -Mr. SPECTER. To the best of your ability to recollect and estimate, -how much time elapsed from the first noise which you have described as -being similar to the backfire of a motor vehicle until you heard the -second noise? - -Mr. GREER. It seems a matter of seconds, I really couldn't say. Three -or four seconds. - -Mr. SPECTER. How much time elapsed, to the best of your ability to -estimate and recollect, between the time of the second noise and the -time of the third noise? - -Mr. GREER. The last two seemed to be just simultaneously, one behind -the other, but I don't recollect just how much, how many seconds were -between the two. I couldn't really say. - -Mr. SPECTER. Describe as best you can the types of sound of the second -report, as distinguished from the first noise which you said was -similar to a motorcycle backfire? - -Mr. GREER. The second one didn't sound any different much than the -first one but I kind of got, by turning around, I don't know whether -I got a little concussion of it, maybe when it hit something or not, -I may have gotten a little concussion that made me think there was -something different to it. But so far as the noise is concerned, I -haven't got any memory of any difference in them at all. - -Mr. SPECTER. Describe as best you can the sound of the third noise. - -Mr. GREER. Just, to me it was similar, to the first two. They all -sounded practically the same to me. - -Mr. SPECTER. You testified that at the second noise you glanced over -your shoulder. - -Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Which shoulder did you glance over? - -Mr. GREER. Right shoulder. - -Mr. SPECTER. And describe or indicate how far you turned your head to -the right at that time? - -Mr. GREER. Just so that my eyes over, caught the Governor, I could see, -I couldn't see the President. I just could see the Governor. I made a -quick glance and back again. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was the movement of your head just then approximately the -same? - -Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. As the time? - -Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. You just indicated the turn of your head slightly to the -right. - -Mr. GREER. My eyes slightly more than my head. My eyes went more than -my head around. I had vision real quick of it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Exactly where was Governor Connally when you first caught -him out of the corner of your eye? - -Mr. GREER. He was--he seemed to be falling a little bit toward Mrs. -Connally, to the left. He started to go over a little bit to the left. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how far did you catch his movement during the time you -were able to observe him? - -Mr. GREER. Just a second. He probably hadn't gotten his shoulder, he -hadn't fell down or anything. He probably was in a position such as I -am now. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he fall to the rear or to the side or how? - -Mr. GREER. In my opinion, he fell toward Mrs. Connally which would be -to his left or to his side. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he fall then on his left shoulder and arm or in some -other way? - -Mr. GREER. He appeared to me to be falling on his left shoulder when I -glanced. He had only started to move that way whenever he--when I saw -him. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to see anything of President Kennedy as you -glanced to the rear? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't see anything of the President. I didn't -look, I wasn't far enough around to see the President. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you started that glance, are you able to recollect -whether you started to glance before, exactly simultaneously with or -after that second shot? - -Mr. GREER. It was almost simultaneously that he had--something had hit, -you know, when I had seen him. It seemed like in the same second almost -that something had hit, you know, whenever I turned around. I saw him -start to fall. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you step on the accelerator before, simultaneously or -after Mr. Kellerman instructed you to accelerate? - -Mr. GREER. It was about simultaneously. - -Mr. SPECTER. So that it was your reaction to accelerate prior to the -time---- - -Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. You had gotten that instruction? - -Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it was my reaction that caused me to accelerate. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect whether you accelerated before or at the -same time or after the third shot? - -Mr. GREER. I couldn't really say. Just as soon as I turned my head back -from the second shot, right away I accelerated right then. It was a -matter of my reflexes to the accelerator. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was it at about that time that you heard the third shot? - -Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; just as soon as I turned my head. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the speed of the car at the -time of the first, second, or third shots? - -Mr. GREER. I would estimate my speed was between 12 and 15 miles per -hour. - -Mr. SPECTER. At the time all of the shots occurred? - -Mr. GREER. At the time the shots occurred. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now what, if anything, was Mr. Kellerman doing at the time -of the first shot? - -Mr. GREER. I couldn't really speak for where he was watching, what part -of the street or the buildings or what he was watching at that time. I -don't really know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what Mr. Kellerman was doing at the time of -the second shot? - -Mr. GREER. He was sitting there in the front. No, sir; I don't know -what his action was then. I was watching the overpass, I wasn't looking -his way. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you were watching the overpass at that time, did you -observe anything on the overpass? - -Mr. GREER. Not that I can remember now. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe that there was no one present on the -overpass? - -Mr. GREER. My recollection, there may have been a police officer up -there. It is vague to me now everything that I had seen at that time. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what Mr. Kellerman was doing at the time of -the third shot? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir; I couldn't say what he was doing. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any radio communication between your automobile -and any of the other automobiles? - -Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who made that radio communication? - -Mr. GREER. Kellerman. - -Mr. SPECTER. Tell us as precisely as you can when he made that radio -communication. - -Mr. GREER. After he had said to me, "Get out of here fast." He got the -radio and called to the lead car, "Get us to a hospital fast, nearest -hospital fast." - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether he said anything else at that time? - -Mr. GREER. After he had said to me, he said, "12:30," and that is all I -remember him saying to me was 12:30, and he had communications with the -cars but I don't remember what he had said to them. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he say just "12:30," or was it 12:30 used in a -sentence? - -Mr. GREER. He said "12:30." He looked at his watch, he said "12:30," -and we were in the underpass at the time. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, would you on Commission's Exhibit 347, mark -with an "A" as best you can indicate the position of the President's -automobile at the time of the first shot? - -Mr. GREER. Do you want me to mark it on this exhibit? - -Mr. SPECTER. Right there, that is right, that red pencil with an "A," a -small "A." - -Mr. GREER. This is the center, I would say [indicating]. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark your best estimate as to the position of the -automobile at the time of the second shot with the letter "B"? - -Mr. GREER. I would have to guess how far I had traveled at that time. I -really wouldn't know. It was probably a little farther, only guessing -how far I would go. I am guessing as to the distance between them. -Maybe farther but I am only guessing to say at that. I wouldn't have -any definite reason. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you make that "B" a little plainer, if you can? - -Mr. GREER. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could you give us the best estimate in feet as to the -distance you traveled from the time of the first shot to the time of -the second shot? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir; I don't believe I could. Anything I would say would -be guessing. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you be able to give us a meaningful mark on the -overhead photograph as to the position of your car at the time of the -third shot? - -Mr. GREER. From this overhead. I probably was where this mark is here. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you mark it? - -Mr. GREER. I will put it alongside. - -Mr. SPECTER. Put a little "C." - -Mr. GREER. This was for the third shot. - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. GREER. This is "C." This not having an idea really of how much -footage is in there at all. I wouldn't---- - -The CHAIRMAN. I didn't understand. - -Mr. GREER. I said I wouldn't probably know, Mr. Chief Justice, how many -feet would be in that distance, I would be guessing how many feet. - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes; I understand. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any opportunity to observe the overhead as -you were driving along after the last shot occurred? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir. I was fairly close to it, to the best of my memory, -and I was trying to watch then where I was going. I had to look ahead -to see, I was catching up on the lead car real fast, and I had to watch -what was ahead of me. - -Mr. SPECTER. How fast was it possible to accelerate your automobile at -that time? - -Mr. GREER. Well, it is a very heavy automobile, and it does not pick up -too fast on account of the weight. I have never tested to see how many -feet I could travel in a second. I have never had any reason to test it -to see how much I could travel. But it was in low gear at that time, -and that helps you to accelerate a lot faster. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you characterize it as a very rapid or a rapid -acceleration? - -Mr. GREER. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Or how would you characterize it? - -Mr. GREER. It is a very smooth car taking off anyway, and I would say -it wasn't rapid. It is fairly fast in low gear but not rapid like a -light car will be. - -Mr. SPECTER. Does that car have an automatic transmission? - -Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what are the varieties of forward speeds in the -vehicle? - -Mr. GREER. It has a low gear and then it has drive one and drive two. -It has two top gears. One has, one probably has, free wheeling more -than the other. The other is not a free wheeling gear. - -Mr. SPECTER. How fast can the car be driven in the low gear? - -Mr. GREER. I would say safely you can drive it up to 40 miles an hour -in low gear. That is estimating it at 40. - -Mr. SPECTER. From the time of the first shot until the time of the -third shot, was your car moving in a straight line or in an arc or how -would you describe it? - -Mr. GREER. I was following the contour of the road, the center of the -contour of the road as it goes. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is the path of the contour of the road? - -Mr. GREER. Well, at the time I didn't think much of it but it is a -little, there is a little bend in the road going to the underpass. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear anyone in the car say anything from the time -of the first shot until the time of the third shot? - -Mr. GREER. Not to the best of my recollection, I don't remember. - -(At this point, Representative Boggs entered the hearing room.) - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, did you hear anyone say anything from the time -of the third shot until the time of arrival at Parkland Hospital? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't. I didn't hear, I can't remember hearing -anyone say anything at all. We were quite preoccupied to get to the -hospital as fast as we can, as we could, and that was my mind was -really occupied on what I was doing. I didn't hear anything. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what speed you were traveling at en route to -the hospital? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir; I couldn't say. I was just getting through the -traffic and through the streets as fast as I could get through. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you have any estimate at all on speed? - -Mr. GREER. I would estimate that I must have been doing 40 or 50, at -least 50 miles an hour at times. We might have been going as fast as 50 -miles an hour, I am sure. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you accelerated your automobile, did you at any time -come alongside of or pass the police car in front of you? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir; I never passed it. I came up alongside one or two -motorcycle men and I called to them "get to a hospital fast". You know, -I called to them "hospital". - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you led to the hospital? - -Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I was led to the hospital by the police car who -was preceding me. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any independent knowledge of the route from -where you were? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. From the point of assassination to the hospital? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you escorted by any other automobiles besides the -police car in front of you? - -Mr. GREER. We had motorcycles and I don't know if there were other -police cars out in front of that or not. I am sure there may have been, -but I couldn't say right now. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any radio communication between your automobile -and the hospital at any time prior to your arrival at the hospital? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir; not between the hospital and our car. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Kellerman have any radio contact at all with -anyone in addition to that which you have already described? - -Mr. GREER. He may have had some more communications to the car, the -lead car, but I can't remember what they were now. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any bullets strike any portion of the car -or ricochet in any way during the course of the shooting? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any bullets or fragments of bullets at -rest in the car after the shooting terminated? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't. I left the car at the hospital and I -didn't see it any more until the next day. - -Mr. SPECTER. I hand you Commission Exhibit No. 349, Mr. Greer, and ask -if you are able to identify what that picture represents? - -Mr. GREER. That represents the windshield of the car. - -Mr. SPECTER. Of the President's car? - -Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it looks like the windshield of the President's -car. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now calling your attention to a small arrow---- - -Mr. GREER. Arrow. - -Mr. SPECTER. Which points up on what appears to be an indentation, I -ask you if you--when was the first time, if at all, that you observed -that indentation? - -Mr. GREER. I didn't observe that---- - -Mr. SPECTER. On the car? - -Mr. GREER. Until after I got back to Washington, until the car came -back to Washington. I saw it at the White House garage. It was the -first time I had ever noticed that. - -Mr. SPECTER. On what date did you observe that indentation on the car? - -Mr. GREER. That was the day after, the 23, would be it. It would be the -day after the shooting. We got back from Dallas. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what time of the day did you observe the car at the -White House garage on that date? - -Mr. GREER. It was in the afternoon, I believe. I believe it was in the -afternoon, I believe. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did anyone call that indentation to your attention at that -time? - -Mr. GREER. Yes; I was asked if I knew about it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who was it who asked you? - -Mr. GREER. I can't remember now who did say that, but I was shown that -indentation at the same time I was the break in the glass. I was shown -both and asked if I had known but I can't remember who might have asked -me. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had you ever observed that indentation before the -assassination occurred? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir. I had never noticed it before at any time. I had -never seen it before. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had you ever had any occasion to examine closely that -metallic area to ascertain whether or not there was such an indentation -prior to the assassination? - -Mr. GREER. Well, it seems to me I would have prior to that had it been -there because I do take care of the car sometimes, and it had never -been--I had never noticed it at any previous time. - -Mr. SPECTER. I hand you Commission Exhibit 350 and ask you if you are -able to state what that depicts? - -Mr. GREER. That depicts a break or a shatter in the windshield of it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Does that picture accurately represent the status of the -windshield on the President's car at sometime? - -Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; that windshield looks real familiar to me on the -way it---- - -Mr. SPECTER. At what time, based on your observation, did the -windshield of the President's car look like that picture? - -Mr. GREER. I had never seen that until the following day after it came -back from Dallas. - -Mr. SPECTER. But on November 23, did the President's car windshield -look like that? - -Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it looked like there was a break that had a -diamond, in the windshield whenever I was shown that at the garage, the -White House garage. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was the size and scope of the crack the same as that which -is shown on that exhibit? - -Mr. GREER. That I wouldn't remember whether it was quite that large -or not. I don't believe it was that big. It might not have been but I -wouldn't say for sure. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any crack on the windshield after the time -of the shooting on November 22? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't see it at all. I didn't know anything -about it until I came back, until the car came back and I was shown -that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion on November 22, after the -shooting, to observe closely the windshield? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir. The only time I was in the car was going to the -hospital and I never--I didn't see the car any more. It was just from -the shooting until we got to Parkland that I was with the car. I left -the car there and never did see it until it was back at the White House -garage. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to state with certainty there was no crack in -that windshield prior to the shooting on November 22? - -Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I am sure there was nothing wrong with that -windshield prior to that because I would have--it was almost in front -of me and I examined the car. I looked it all over when I got there. I -saw it was clean and everything, the windshield. I didn't see this ever -at any time previous. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, I now call your attention to a windshield -which has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 351, and I will ask -you to take a look at it and identify it for us, if you can, calling -your attention first of all to the windshield itself. Are you able to -state---- - -Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; this is the windshield that came out of the -Lincoln. - -Mr. SPECTER. That you were operating on the day of the assassination? - -Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe what cracks, if any, which you see now on -that windshield were present? - -Mr. GREER. When I looked---- - -Mr. SPECTER. When you observed the automobile windshield on November -23, the next day? - -Mr. GREER. This little star, the star in here with the little star. -These cracks were not there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now by these cracks you are indicating---- - -Mr. GREER. These. - -Mr. SPECTER. The long cracks which radiate off from the center? - -Mr. GREER. That is right. This was the only cracks that I could see was -this star-type fragment. - -Mr. SPECTER. There you are indicating what would be described as the -principal point of contact which was present when you observed it on -November 23? - -Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Give me your best estimate on the diameter of the cracking -of the windshield as it existed on November 23? - -Mr. GREER. To the best of my estimate it would be these little stars -that are here, the little shatters that are here. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would it be fair to say that you are indicating a circle -with a circumference or diameter of approximately an inch to an inch -and a half? - -Mr. GREER. I don't think--it probably would be an inch. The whole -diameter. - -Mr. SPECTER. Approximately 1 inch as you estimate it? - -Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. - -Representative BOGGS. Excuse me, did you say you did not notice this -crack from the time that you drove the car after the shooting to the -hospital? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir; I had flags on the car and you know they were -waving at a high rate of speed and you have the Presidential flag and -the American flag in front of you there; you know when you are going -at a fast speed you get a lot of, well, I don't know how you would say -it, it attracts you so much that I didn't have any recollection of what -happened on the windshield. - -Representative BOGGS. There was no glass or anything that spattered on -you in any way? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't feel anything at all. I didn't feel a -thing hit me. I was kind of shocked at the time, I guess anything -could have and I wouldn't have known what hit me. You are tense, I was -pretty tense, and naturally my thoughts were the hospital, and how fast -I could get there, and probably I could have been injured and not even -known I was injured. I was in that position. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, what is your best estimate and recollection of -the time that the shooting occurred? - -Mr. GREER. Well, Mr. Kellerman saying 12:30 to me makes me--that stays -in my mind foremost, and that was when we had just left the scene of -the shooting, a few seconds or a second or two from it. That is why -that 12:30 stays in my mind, him saying 12:30 to me right after the -shooting, he said. His watch may not have been correct but that is what -he said to me at the time. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the distance between the -point where the assassination occurred and Parkland Hospital? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir; I haven't. It seemed like endless miles and -probably wasn't very far, but it seemed like to me it was endless -getting there. I was---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to give us an estimate with reasonable -accuracy on the time it took? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. From the time it took from the point of the shooting until -you arrived at Parkland Hospital? - -Mr. GREER. I didn't check anything but I thought that probably it -would probably be 6 or 8 minutes. I am not too sure, somewhere in the -vicinity of 5 and 10 minutes. I would have to guess at that. - -Mr. SPECTER. How did you know which entrance of the hospital to go to? - -Mr. GREER. I followed the car that was in front of me right to where he -stopped and I was right at the entrance. The car stopped and I stopped -alongside of him. - -Mr. SPECTER. Which entrance was that? - -Mr. GREER. It seems, I think it was the emergency entrance, I am almost -sure. It was like a bay that you could pull in and out of. It looked -like an ambulance entrance. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe with respect to President Kennedy's -condition on arrival at the Parkland Hospital? - -Mr. GREER. To the best of my knowledge he was laying, it seemed across -Mrs. Kennedy, looked like laying across her lap or in front of her, I -am not too sure which, I opened the doors--the doors were opened before -I got to it, someone else had opened the doors and they were trying to -get Connally out, and Mrs. Connally out of the seats so they could get -to the President. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe about the President with respect to -his wounds? - -Mr. GREER. His head was all shot, this whole part was all a matter of -blood like he had been hit. - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the top and right rear side of the head? - -Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it looked like that was all blown off. - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. - -Mr. GREER. I run around the front of the car and got hold of a -stretcher or thing and I got hold of it to keep it steady while they -lifted the President's body onto it and then I helped pull the front -end of it into the emergency room. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who was first removed from the automobile? - -Mr. GREER. Governor Connally was first removed. He was on the jump -seats. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what, if anything, did you observe as to Governor -Connally's condition on arrival at Parkland Hospital? - -Mr. GREER. The best of my recollection he was lying across the seat -toward Mrs. Connally when they picked him up and got him out of the -car. And he was rushed in first into the hospital. That is when I -got the stretcher to bring it, to hold it until they would get the -President on it, on the right side of the car. They took him out on the -side he was sitting on, that side of the car. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to make any personal observation about -Governor Connally's specific wound? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir. I didn't know how badly anyone really was injured. -I had great thoughts the President was still living and that was the -only thing I was thinking about was to get them in quick. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe anything specific which led you to the -conclusion that the President was still living? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir. When he was in the emergency room and I was there, -I did see his chest expand and move, the movement of the chest a time -or so. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to observe any wound on the front side of -the President? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't, I never seen any on the front side of the -President. The only thing I saw was on the head. I didn't know at the -time of any other injuries on him. - -Mr. SPECTER. As to the front side of the President's body, were you -able to observe any hole or tear in either his shirt or tie? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't and I brought them back, those things, -and I didn't see them at the time. I probably didn't inspect them very -closely but they were handed to me in a paper bag to bring back. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you acquire custody and possession of those items -of clothing? - -Mr. GREER. After they had made the President's body ready for removal, -I was in the emergency room, and a nurse got two shopping bags and I -held them and she put the President's suit, his belongings into the -two bags including his shoes and socks, and his pants and jacket which -they had torn and the shirt they had torn, they had torn it to take it -off him, and the nurse put these into the two bags and I got custody of -them right then from the nurse at the emergency room. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other items of wearing apparel such as -shorts or undershirt? - -Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; his shorts and that brace he wore, whatever it -was, and his sox and shoes, and shirt, and his trousers, and his suit -coat. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to state with certainty that there was no -undershirt? - -Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; there was no undershirt. I am sure there was no -undershirt. I would have to say it to the best of my recollection, -there was no undershirt. I had been with him so many times and I knew -he didn't normally wear an undershirt because I had heard him one time -previously, I offered him a coat. - -He said, "I have an undershirt on today," it was at some ballgame. He -normally didn't wear an undershirt. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe with more particularity the brace you -just said he was wearing? - -Mr. GREER. It looked like a, I would say, a corset-type brace, maybe 6 -inches wide, he wore it around his, down low around his, haunches, a -little lower than the waist, probably, just probably below his belt he -wore it there. It was something he normally wore, and I would guess, -but I would say it was of a soft, maybe a kind of corset-type material, -maybe elastic or something like that support. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, when your automobile arrived at Parkland, was -there any medical individual awaiting your arrival? - -Mr. GREER. I can't remember--there were--who brought the stretchers -out. There were some hospital people there, but who they were, I never -got--I couldn't identify or knew who they were. There were some medical -people there; yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where were they when you first saw hospital personnel? - -Mr. GREER. When I pulled into the ambulance entrance there were some -people there on the right-hand side with these stretchers that they had -rushed out. I don't know just who they were from the hospital staff. -There was a great deal of confusion because everyone was trying to -help, the agents were there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to state whether there was a doctor in -attendance at that time? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir; I couldn't state that. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after your arrival at Parkland Hospital? - -Mr. GREER. I helped pull it, take the stretcher into the emergency room -that he was on. It is on wheels, and I helped to take that in, and I -stayed inside the door of the emergency room most of the time while -they were, the doctors were, working on the President's body. - -Mr. SPECTER. How many doctors were working on him in the emergency room? - -Mr. GREER. There were, between nurses and doctors. I would estimate -there were, between 10 or 12 people, maybe not that many, 8 to 10 -people in and out of that room. I don't know how many of them were -doctors, attendants, nurses, and things like that with white jackets -and they would come in and say, "I am doctor so-and-so." - -Mr. SPECTER. How long were they working on him there in the emergency -room? - -Mr. GREER. I couldn't remember the time. - -Mr. SPECTER. You say you were with him most of the time? - -Mr. GREER. I was inside the door. I know, I kept the door closed most -of the time, let doctors and nurses in and out while he was--while they -were working on him. I stayed inside the emergency room door. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any special reason for you to leave part of the -time? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't go any farther away than outside the door. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other Secret Service agents inside the -emergency room at that time? - -Mr. GREER. Not at that time; I was inside the door. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where was Mrs. Kennedy at this time? - -Mr. GREER. Mrs. Kennedy was outside the door. They got her a chair out -there for a little while and then she insisted on coming in and she got -in the corner for a little while there and stayed there a little while -and I don't quite remember the time she went over to his body but she -did go over there, and I don't remember how far along the doctors had -been on him when that happened. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to overhear any of the conversations among -the doctors in the emergency room? - -Mr. GREER. I don't understand anything that they were discussing at all. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did a priest or more than one priest come upon the scene? - -Mr. GREER. I believe there were two. To the best of my recollection -there eventually was two. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long after President Kennedy arrived at the emergency -room did the priest arrive, if you recollect? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir; I wouldn't have any idea, it seemed to me it was -quite a little while in the matter, probably minutes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long did the priests stay? - -Mr. GREER. I don't remember that, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did they say anything on leaving or in entering? - -Mr. GREER. Not that I heard of personally. I was outside the room when -the priest was in there. I wasn't in the emergency room while he was in. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you find that the President had died? - -Mr. GREER. When the priest was in to give him the last rites then I -knew that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any reasonably close estimate on when the -President did die? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir; I haven't right off. I would have to look at some -reports. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after the President was pronounced dead? - -Mr. GREER. We stayed there until everything was settled up. I believe -there was a judge came in there and I think, someone came in and made -the decisions on removing the body and the casket was brought in, and -the body was put in the casket. I had this, his clothing, I kept it in -my hand at all times, all the time. Then I went, when they removed the -casket from the emergency room, I was in front of it going out to make -a path to get it to the ambulance. - -So, I helped get it into the ambulance and then I drove a car with some -agents and some people right behind the ambulance to Love Field back to -the airport again and helped to get the casket aboard the airplane. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you present at the swearing in of President Johnson? - -Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I was--we were all asked to come back into the -state room but I wasn't in too close. I was in the main part of the -plane, as close as I could get to it, yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. How did you personally return to Washington, D.C.? - -Mr. GREER. I returned on Air Force 1 with the President's remains. - -Mr. SPECTER. And at approximately what time did you leave Dallas to fly -back? - -Mr. GREER. I would have to look in my reports to say exactly. I would -have to go back on the times. Two something but I don't remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any idea of the time you arrived in the -Washington area? - -Mr. GREER. I believe it was 6 or 6:15. As I say I have it in my reports -but I haven't looked at the times recently. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you arrive in the Washington area? - -Mr. GREER. At Andrews Air Force Base. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next in connection with this matter? - -Mr. GREER. I helped to get the casket out of the plane, and put it into -a Navy ambulance and then I drove that Navy ambulance to Bethesda Naval -Center. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do upon arriving at the Bethesda Naval Center? - -Mr. GREER. I stayed in, while the autopsy was being performed, I stayed -in the autopsy room with Mr. Kellerman and the doctors and the people -who were in there. I stayed in there and observed what was necessary -that I could do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were any Secret Service Agents present besides you and Mr. -Kellerman? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. At the autopsy? - -Mr. GREER. There may have been, Mr. Hill may have come in and out but -he didn't stay there. Mr. Kellerman and I stayed permanently the whole -time there. There may have been, Mr. Hill may have come in there and -have gone back out but he didn't stay in there. - -Mr. SPECTER. During the course of the autopsy did you hear any doctor -say anything about the wound on the right side of Mr. Kennedy's back? - -Mr. GREER. That was the first time that I had ever seen it, when the -doctors were performing the autopsy, they saw this hole in the right -shoulder or back of the head, and in the back, and that was the first -I had known that he was ever shot there, and they brought it to our -attention or discussed it there a little bit. - -Mr. SPECTER. What conversation was there concerning the wound on the -right back? - -Mr. GREER. Well, the doctors and people who were performing the -autopsy, when they turned the body apparently over they discovered that -this wound was in the back, and they thought that they probably could -get a bullet out of there, and it took a lot of--then they took more -X-rays, they took a lot of X-rays, we looked at them and couldn't find -the trace of any bullet anywhere in the X-rays at all, nothing showed -on the X-rays where this bullet or lead could have gone. - -Mr. SPECTER. Approximately where in the President's back was the bullet -hole? - -Mr. GREER. It was, to the best of my recollection it was, back here, -just in the soft part of that shoulder. - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the upper right shoulder area? - -Mr. GREER. Upper right, yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any effort made to probe that wound by any -doctor? - -Mr. GREER. I believe, yes, I believe the doctors probed to see if they -could find that there was a bullet there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know which doctor that was? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir; I don't, I don't have their names at this time. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did any doctor make any statement about the results of his -probing effort? - -Mr. GREER. I questioned one of the doctors in there about that, and -when we found out that they had found a bullet in Dallas, I questioned -the doctor about it and he said if they were using pressure on the -chest that it could very well have been, come back out, where it went -in at, that is what they said at the time. - -(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Was anything said about any channel being present in the -body for the bullet to have gone on through the back? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir; I hadn't heard anything like that, any trace of it -going on through. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you just mention, Mr. Greer, a hole in the President's -head in addition to the large area of the skull which was shot away? - -Mr. GREER. No. I had just seen that, you know, the head was damaged in -all this part of it but I believe looking at the X-rays, I looked at -the X-rays when they were taken in the autopsy room, and the person who -does that type work showed us the trace of it because there would be -little specks of lead where the bullet had come from here and it came -to the--they showed where it didn't come on through. It came to a sinus -cavity or something they said, over the eye. - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the right eye. - -Mr. GREER. I may be wrong. - -Mr. SPECTER. You don't know which eye? - -Mr. GREER. I don't know which eye, I may be wrong. But they showed us -the trace of it coming through but there were very little small specks -on the X-rays that these professionals knew what course that the bullet -had taken, the lead. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe in very general terms what injury you -observed as to the President's head during the course of the autopsy? - -Mr. GREER. I would--to the best of my recollection it was in this part -of the head right here. - -Mr. SPECTER. Upper right? - -Mr. GREER. Upper right side. - -Mr. SPECTER. Upper right side, going toward the rear. - -And what was the condition of the skull at that point? - -Mr. GREER. The skull was completely--this part was completely gone. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, aside from that opening which you have described and -you have indicated a circle with a diameter of approximately 5 inches, -would you say that is about what you have indicated there? - -Mr. GREER. Approximately I would say 5 inches; yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other opening or hole of any sort in -the head itself? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't. No other one. - -Mr. SPECTER. Specifically did you observe a hole which would be below -the large area of skull which was absent? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to look in the back of the head -immediately below where the skull was missing? - -Mr. GREER. No; I can't remember even examining the head that close at -that time. - -Mr. SPECTER. When President Kennedy was being treated in the emergency -room at Parkland Hospital, were any pictures or X-rays taken of him -there? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir; not that I know of. I didn't see any being taken. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was he ever turned over that you observed while being -treated at Parkland Hospital? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir. I can't recollect him ever being turned over. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any recollection that he was in fact not -turned over? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir; I couldn't even say. I didn't see them turn him -over in any way in my vision, although my back was to him quite often -and because I was attending to the door and they could have done it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was he on a stretcher at the time he was being worked on -at Parkland Hospital? - -Mr. GREER. I can't remember whether they changed him from a stretcher -to a table. I am not sure on that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, as to the return of the President's automobile -to Washington, do you know how that was accomplished? - -Mr. GREER. It was driven to Love Field, and put aboard the same C-130 -it was taken out on and flown back to Andrews Air Force Base. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know when it was returned from Dallas to the -Washington area? - -Mr. GREER. I believe it was returned shortly after, it left shortly -after, the President's plane left, was flown back. - -Mr. SPECTER. I hand you two photographs marked Commission Exhibit No. -352 and Commission Exhibit No. 353. - -Do those photographs represent the condition of the back seat of the -President's car at some time? - -Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; they do. - -Mr. SPECTER. And at what time do those pictures look just as the back -seat of the President's car looked? - -Mr. GREER. It looked like that when it came back from Dallas. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did it look like that immediately after President Kennedy -was removed from the back seat? - -Mr. GREER. I wasn't there any more, sir. I was with the President after -they lifted him out. I didn't see the car after he had been removed. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe the back seat of the car at any time -from the time you arrived at Parkland Hospital until you observed the -automobile in Washington? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. On November 23? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. SPECTER. By the way, Mr. Greer, how much, approximately, does or -did the President's automobile weigh? - -Mr. GREER. It weighed between--well, for flight reason we said 8,000, -but it wasn't that much. It probably was 7,500. We had extra weight on -it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to tell the Commission the dimensions of the -automobile, indicating its length? - -Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. It is 21 feet 8 inches long. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how wide? - -Mr. GREER. I would have to go back for the width on it. I have it all -in black and white in the office, but I haven't got it with me in my -head right now; I am sorry. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could three people sit comfortably in the front seat of -the automobile? - -Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it was wide enough for three. We many times had an -aide in there; many times, an aide rode in the front. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was it as wide or wider than, say, a Cadillac automobile? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir; it would be probably the same width. - -Representative BOGGS. Was that car specially made for the President? - -Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it was a specially built car. - -Representative BOGGS. Was it a Lincoln Continental? - -Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; a Lincoln Continental. - -Representative BOGGS. How did it differ from the ordinary Lincoln? - -Mr. GREER. Well, Lincoln doesn't make a seven-passenger car, and this -was a seven-passenger car. The back seat on this car would raise 8 -inches. It was electric, and you could lift, you could raise, the seat -up 8 inches from the ground, from the floorboards. It had a little step -that went with it. The President could raise it up and down himself. He -had a button alongside that would cause it to go up and down when the -top wasn't down. It wouldn't go up and down when the top was down. But -when it was off he could raise it up or down, and it would be above the -other seat. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether the seat was actually raised at the -time of the assassination? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir; I couldn't say right off. I don't believe it was, -but I wouldn't know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Going back to the shots themselves, Mr. Greer, do you have -any reaction as to the direction from which the shots came? - -Mr. GREER. They sounded like they were behind me, to the right rear of -me. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would that be as to all three shots? - -Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. They sounded, everything sounded, behind me, to -me. That was my thought, train of thought, that they were behind me. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had any reaction or thought at any time -since the assassination that the shots came from the front of the car? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir; I had never even the least thought that they could -come. There was no thought in my mind other than that they were behind -me. - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Boggs, are there any questions you would like -to ask the agent? - -Representative BOGGS. I don't think so, Mr. Chairman. - -The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford. - -Representative FORD. Did you ever have any thought there were more than -three shots? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir; I never did. - -Representative FORD. Did you positively identify the fact that there -were one, two, three, or was there one, and then a delay, and then a -flurry? - -Mr. GREER. To the best of my recollection, Congressman, was that the -last two were closer together than the first one. It seemed like the -first one, and then there was, you know, bang, bang, just right behind -it almost. The two seemed, the last two seemed, closer to me than the -other. - -Representative BOGGS. Did you speed up after you heard the first shot? - -Mr. GREER. After I heard the second. The first one didn't sink into me, -didn't give me the thought that it was a shot. I thought it was the -backfire of a motorcycle. But when I heard the second one and glanced -over my shoulder, I knew something was wrong then. I didn't know how -bad anyone was injured or anything, but I knew there was something -wrong, and right away after the second one I accelerated as fast as I -could. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Craig, would you like to ask any questions? - -Mr. CRAIG. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice. - -With respect to the position of the President's car that you were -driving as it approached the underpass, you state now that you couldn't -fix any specific distance. But would you say it was less than a mile -that the President's car was from the overpass? - -Mr. GREER. Oh, definitely. I couldn't say in feet or yards, but it was -within--it was feet. I would say probably a hundred or 200 feet. It -could be within that; it was definitely right up close to me, but I---- - -Mr. CRAIG. With respect to your vision, was it unobstructed down the -roadway, looking at the overpass? - -Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; there were no obstructions in the road that I -could see. - -Mr. CRAIG. As I recall your testimony, you were actually observing the -overpass to see if there was any person there. - -Mr. GREER. People up there at that time I would be doubtful of going -underneath. - -Mr. CRAIG. Yes, sir. And you say now you do not recollect that you saw -anyone there? - -Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. CRAIG. You said also, I believe, that it was some time now since -you made that observation. Did you make any report of any kind with -respect to anyone being on the overpass immediately after this incident? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir. - -Mr. CRAIG. You made no written report to anybody as to whether or not -there were people on the overpass or were not people? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir; I haven't. - -Mr. CRAIG. Do you believe if you had observed people on the overpass at -that time you would now remember it? - -Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I believe I would; yes, sir. - -Mr. CRAIG. If you had observed people on the overpass as you proceeded -toward it, and they were other than a policeman or policemen or some -other law-enforcement agent, what would you have done? - -Mr. GREER. Well, I try never to go underneath a bridge if there -are people up over it, if there are people who I don't know as law -enforcement. I try not to go underneath them. I will probably veer to -one side of them at any time. That is a matter of our training, that -we try not to go underneath anyone with an open car where anyone could -drop something. - -Mr. CRAIG. Would you ever stop, if necessary, if you thought there were -people up there that you couldn't veer around? - -Mr. GREER. If there was any danger there I would have to either change -my way of traveling. I have never had it happen, and never had any -reason to, but we try, I try, not to go underneath a group of people -standing on any overpass at any time. I try to move over, if the -condition permits me to. Sometimes, when the road is too narrow, I -couldn't. But that is part of our procedure, I think, to see that no -one is on an overpass. - -Mr. CRAIG. That is all. - -The CHAIRMAN. If there are no further questions---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, may I ask one or two other questions? - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. I have just noted that we have the report of the FBI which -bears Bureau file No. 105-S, as it appears here somewhat indistinct, -S-2555, "Report of Special Agent Robert P. Gemberling, dated December -10, 1963," and this refers, Mr. Greer, to an interview of you by -Special Agents Francis X. O'Neill, Jr., and James W. Sibert. There is -a report here of an interview of you and of Special Agent Kellerman, -and the date here is listed as November 22, 1963, and there is this -reference made in the report, and I will quote it verbatim: - -"Greer stated that he first heard what he thought was possibly a -motorcycle backfire, and glanced around and noticed that the President -had evidently been hit. He thereafter got on the radio and communicated -with the other vehicles stating that they desired to get the President -to the hospital immediately." - -Mr. GREER. I didn't go on the radio. It was Mr. Kellerman who done the -radio talking. I didn't. It is a misquote if I done it. I didn't get on -the radio. Mr. Kellerman did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever make this statement, Mr. Greer, to Special -Agent O'Neill or Sibert? - -Mr. GREER. Those two agents were in during the autopsy; those two -agents were in the autopsy room, with Mr. Kellerman and I, all night. -Mr. Sibert and O'Neill were both in the autopsy room with us during -that time, and the only time that any of us, either Mr. Kellerman or I, -we never left the room, one or the other. We went and got some coffee -and came right back, something like that, and the FBI did the same -thing. One of them left; the other stayed. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you now recollect whether or not you ever said to them -that you were the one who communicated on the radio with the other -vehicles? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir; I know I never remember saying that to them because -I know I didn't do it. So that is how I know that I didn't say it, -because I know I didn't do it. Mr. Kellerman did. - -Mr. SPECTER. And the first part refers to your noticing that the -President evidently had been hit. Did you ever---- - -Mr. GREER. I have no recollection of ever telling the agents that I -said that; no, sir. If I said it, I don't remember saying it. The -Governor was the person that I knew was--when we were first in trouble, -when I see the Governor. - -Mr. SPECTER. To the best of your current recollection, did you notice -that the President had been hit? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't know how badly he was injured or anything -other than that. I didn't know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you know at all, from the glance which you have -described that he had been hit or injured in any way? - -Mr. GREER. I knew he was injured in some way, but I didn't know how bad -or what. - -Mr. SPECTER. How did you know that? - -Mr. GREER. If I remember now, I just don't remember how I knew, but -I knew we were in trouble. I knew that he was injured, but I can't -remember, recollect, just how I knew there were injuries in there. I -didn't know who all was hurt, even. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to recollect whether you saw the President -after the shots as you were proceeding toward Parkland Hospital? - -Mr. GREER. No; I don't remember ever seeing him any more until I got to -the hospital, and he was lying across the seat, you know, and that is -the first I had seen of him. - -Mr. SPECTER. Your best recollection is, then, that you had the -impression he was injured but you couldn't ascertain the source of that -information? - -Mr. GREER. Right. I couldn't ascertain the source. - -Representative FORD. Did you hear the President say anything after the -first shot? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir; I never heard him say anything; never at any time -did I ever hear him say anything. - -Representative BOGGS. Did Mrs. Kennedy say anything to you while you -were driving to the hospital? - -Mr. GREER. No, sir; she didn't. - -Representative BOGGS. Did Mrs. Connally say anything to you? - -Mr. GREER. No. Mrs. Connally didn't say anything, either. There is -quite a little distance between the front and the back seat of that -car. As you know, it is 21 feet long, and you are quite a little bit -away, and there was the sirens were all going. The following car had a -siren wide--the big one on the fender was wide open. There wasn't much -chance for me to hear anything, and I was really occupied with getting -there just as fast as I could and not seeing that anything happened, -avoid an accident or anything like that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a siren on your car? - -Mr. GREER. I didn't have mine going. There is a siren on that car, but -I didn't even reach down to work it. - -Representative BOGGS. There was another agent in the car with you? - -Mr. GREER. Mr. Kellerman; yes, sir. - -Representative BOGGS. And after the first shot, did he say to speed up -or what? - -Mr. GREER. I believe it was at the second that he and I both -simultaneously--he said, "Get out of here fast," and I speeded up as -fast as I could then and as fast as the car would go. - -The CHAIRMAN. If there are no further questions, thank you very much, -Mr. Greer. - -Mr. GREER. Thank you, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. You may be excused. - -Mr. GREER. Thank you, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. We will take a short recess. - -(Short recess.) - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hill, come right in, sir. Would you raise your right -hand, please, and be sworn? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony -you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and -nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. HILL. I do. - -The CHAIRMAN. Would you be seated, please, Mr. Hill? - -Mr. HILL. Thank you, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Specter. - - -TESTIMONY OF CLINTON J. HILL, SPECIAL AGENT, SECRET SERVICE - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Hill, would you state your full name for the record, -please? - -Mr. HILL. Clinton J. Hill. - -Mr. SPECTER. How old are you, sir? - -Mr. HILL. Thirty-two. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your educational background? - -Mr. HILL. I went to secondary educational high school in Washburn, N. -Dak., and then went on to Concordia College, Moorehead, Minn. I was a -history and education major, with a minor in physical education. - -Mr. SPECTER. What year were you graduated? - -Mr. HILL. 1954. - -Mr. SPECTER. What have you done since the time of graduation from -college, Mr. Hill? - -Mr. HILL. I went into the Army in 1954; remained in the Army until -1957. Then I couldn't determine what I wanted to do, whether to go -to law school or not, and I took a couple of odd jobs. I worked for -a finance company at one time. Then I went to work for the Chicago, -Burlington & Quincy Railroad as a special agent in the spring of 1958, -and entered the Secret Service in September 1958. - -Mr. SPECTER. You have been with the Secret Service since September 1958 -to the present time? - -Mr. HILL. Yes; I have. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline for the Commission your duties with the -Secret Service during your tenure there? - -Mr. HILL. I entered the Secret Service in Denver, and during that -period I did both investigative and protection work. I was assigned to -Mrs. Doud, the mother-in-law of President Eisenhower. I attended the -Treasury Law Enforcement School during my first year, and was sent to -the White House for a 30-day temporary assignment at the White House in -June 1959. In November of 1959, November 1, I was transferred to the -White House on a permanent basis as a special agent assigned to the -White House detail. I have been at the White House since that time. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you assigned to duties on the trip of President -Kennedy to Texas in November 1963? - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I was. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any special duty assigned to you at that time? - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. In connection with the trip? - -Mr. HILL. I was responsible for the protection of Mrs. Kennedy. - -Mr. SPECTER. And, in a general way, what does that sort of an -assignment involve? - -Mr. HILL. I tried to remain as close to her at all times as possible, -and in this particular trip that meant being with the President because -all of their doings on this trip were together rather than separate. I -would go over her schedule to make sure she knows what she is expected -to do; discuss it with her; remain in her general area all the time; -protect her from any danger. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us, in a general way, what were the -activities of the President and Mrs. Kennedy on the morning of Friday, -November 22, before they arrived in Dallas? - -Mr. HILL. I went to the fifth floor, I believe it was, where the -President and Mrs. Kennedy were staying in the Texas Hotel in Fort -Worth at 8:15 in the morning. President Kennedy was to go downstairs -and across the street to make a speech to a gathering in a parking lot. -I remained on the floor during the period the President was gone. - -It was raining outside, I recall. About 9:25 I received word from -Special Agent Duncan that the President requested Mrs. Kennedy to come -to the mezzanine, where a breakfast was being held in his honor, and -where he was about to speak. I went in and advised Mrs. Kennedy of -this, and took her down to where the President was speaking; remained -with her adjacent to the head table in this particular area during the -speech; and accompanied she and the President back up to the, I believe -it was, the fifth floor of the hotel, their residential area; remained -on that floor until we left, went downstairs, got into the motorcade, -and departed the hotel for the airport to leave Fort Worth for Dallas. - -We were airborne approximately 11:20, I believe, in Air Force 1. I was -in the aft compartment, which is part of the residential compartment, -and we arrived in Dallas at 11:40. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe, in a general way, what the President -and Mrs. Kennedy did upon arrival in Dallas? - -Mr. HILL. They debarked the rear ramp of the aircraft first, followed -by Governor and Mrs. Connally, various Congressmen and Senators. And -Special Agent in Charge Kellerman and myself went down the ramp. There -was a small reception committee at the foot of the ramp, and somebody -gave Mrs. Kennedy some red roses, I recall. I walked immediately to -the followup car and placed my topcoat, which is a raincoat, and small -envelope containing some information concerning the Dallas stop in the -followup car, returning to where the President and Mrs. Kennedy were at -that time greeting a crippled lady in a wheelchair. - -Mr. SPECTER. What do you estimate the size of the crowd to have been at -Dallas that morning? - -Mr. HILL. At the airport? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HILL. It is rather difficult to say. They were behind a chain-link -fence, not on the airport ramp itself, and they were jammed up against -the fence holding placards, and many young people in the crowd. I -would say there were probably 2,000 people there. - -Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did the motorcade depart from -Love Field to Dallas? - -Mr. HILL. Approximately 11:55. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know approximately how many automobiles there were -in the motorcade? - -Mr. HILL. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. SPECTER. In which car in the motorcade were you positioned? - -Mr. HILL. I was working the followup car, which is the car immediately -behind the Presidential car. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how many cars are there ahead of the followup car, -then, in the entire motorcade? - -Mr. HILL. There was a lead car ahead of the President's car, the -President's car, then this particular followup car. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether there was any car in advance of the -car termed the lead car? - -Mr. HILL. There could have been a pilot car, but I am not sure. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, approximately how far in front of the President's car -did the lead car stay during the course of the motorcade? - -Mr. HILL. I would say a half block, maybe. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how far was the President's car in front of the -President's followup car during the course of the motorcade? - -Mr. HILL. Approximately 5 feet. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is there some well-established practice as to the spacing -between the President's car and the President's followup car? - -Mr. HILL. It would depend upon speed. We attempt to stay as close to -the President's car as practical. At high rates of speed it is rather -difficult to stay close because of the danger involved. Slow speeds, -the followup car stays as close as possible so that the agents on the -followup car can get to the Presidential car as quickly as possible. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the first car to the rear of the President's -followup car? - -Mr. HILL. The Vice-Presidential automobile. - -Mr. SPECTER. What car was immediately behind the Vice President's -automobile? - -Mr. HILL. The Vice-Presidential followup car. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what cars in the Dallas motorcade followed the -Vice President's followup car? - -Mr. HILL. Well, I couldn't say which car any individual rode in after -that particular automobile, but I could say they were occupied by -members of the staff, both President Kennedy's and Vice President -Johnson's; Congressmen and Senators who were on this particular trip; -newspaper personnel who were on this trip. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you identify the occupants of the President's -followup car and indicate where each was in the automobile. - -Mr. HILL. The car itself was driven by Special Agent Sam Kinney, and -Assistant to the Special Agent in Charge Emory Roberts was riding in -the right front seat. I was assigned to work the left running board of -the automobile, the forward portion of that running board. McIntyre was -assigned to work the rear portion of the left running board. Special -Agent John Ready was assigned the forward portion of the right running -board; Special Agent Paul Landis was assigned the rear portion of the -right running board. There were two jump seats, and they were occupied -by two Presidential aides, Mr. O'Donnell and Mr. Powers. Mr. Powers -was sitting on the right-hand side; Mr. O'Donnell on the left. The -rear seat was occupied, left rear by Special Agent Hickey, right rear, -Special Agent Bennett. - -Mr. SPECTER. How were the agents armed at that time? - -Mr. HILL. All the agents were armed with their hand weapons. - -Mr. SPECTER. And is there any weapon in the automobile in addition to -the hand weapons? - -Mr. HILL. Yes. There is an AR-15, which is an automatic rifle, and a -shotgun. - -Mr. SPECTER. And where is the AR-15 kept? - -Mr. HILL. Between the two agents in the rear seat. - -Mr. SPECTER. How about the shotgun; where is that kept? - -Mr. HILL. In a compartment immediately in front of the jump seats. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is the President's followup car a specially constructed -automobile? - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; it is. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is the make and model and general description of -that vehicle? - -Mr. HILL. It is a 1955 Cadillac, nine-passenger touring sedan. It is a -convertible type. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was that automobile flown in specially from Washington for -the occasion? - -Mr. HILL. Yes; it was, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how that automobile was transported to Dallas, -Tex.? - -Mr. HILL. Generally, it is flown in a C-130 by the Air Force. I am not -sure how on this particular occasion. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe, in a general way, the composition of -the crowds en route from Love Field down to the center of Dallas, -please? - -Mr. HILL. Well, when we left Love Field, we went away from the crowd -to get to the exit point at Love Field, and there were no crowds at -all, and then we, departing Love Field, found the crowds were sporadic. -There were people here and there. Some places they had built up and -other places they were thinned out. The speed of the motorcade was -adjusted accordingly. Whenever there were large groups of people, -the motorcade slowed down to give the people an opportunity to view -the President. When there were not many people along the side of the -street, we speeded up. We didn't really hit the crowds until we hit -Main Street. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the maximum speed of the -automobile from the time you left Love Field until the time you arrived -at downtown Dallas? - -Mr. HILL. I would say we never ran any faster than 25 to 30 miles per -hour. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the minimum speed during -this same interval? - -Mr. HILL. Twelve to fifteen miles per hour. We did stop. - -Mr. SPECTER. On what occasion did you stop? - -Mr. HILL. Between Love Field and Main Street, downtown Dallas, on the -right-hand side of the street there were a group of people with a long -banner which said, "Please, Mr. President, stop and shake our hands." -And the President requested the motorcade to stop, and he beckoned to -the people and asked them to come and shake his hand, which they did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did the President disembark from his automobile at that -time? - -Mr. HILL. No; he remained in his seat. - -Mr. SPECTER. At that time what action, if any, did you take? - -Mr. HILL. I jumped from the followup car and ran up to the left rear -portion of the automobile with my back toward Mrs. Kennedy viewing -those persons on the left-hand side of the street. - -Mr. SPECTER. What action was taken by any other Secret Service agent -which you observed at that time? - -Mr. HILL. Special Agent Ready, who was working the forward portion of -the right running board, did the same thing, only on the President's -side, placed his back toward the car, and viewed the people facing -the President. Assistant in Charge Kellerman opened the door of the -President's car and stepped out on the street. - -Mr. SPECTER. What action was taken by Special Agent McIntyre, if you -know? - -Mr. HILL. I do not know. - -Mr. SPECTER. How about Special Agent Landis? - -Mr. HILL. I do not know. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your normal procedure for action in the event the -President's car is stopped, as it did in that event? - -Mr. HILL. Special Agent McIntyre would normally jump off the car and -run to the forward portion of the left-hand side of the car; Special -Agent Landis would move to the right-hand forward portion of the -automobile. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did anything else which was unusual occur en route from -Love Field to the downtown area of Dallas? - -Mr. HILL. Before we hit Main Street? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. HILL. Not that I recall. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to leave the President's -followup car at any time? - -Mr. HILL. When we finally did reach Main Street, the crowds had -built up to a point where they were surging into the street. We had -motorcycles running adjacent to both the Presidential automobile and -the followup car, as well as in front of the Presidential automobile, -and because of the crowds in the street, the President's driver, -Special Agent Greer, was running the car more to the left-hand side of -the street more than he was to the right to keep the President as far -away from the crowd as possible, and because of this the motorcycles on -the left-hand side could not get past the crowd and alongside the car, -and they were forced to drop back. I jumped from the followup car, ran -up and got on top of the rear portion of the Presidential automobile to -be close to Mrs. Kennedy in the event that someone attempted to grab -her from the crowd or throw something in the car. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say the rear portion of the automobile, can you, -by referring to Commission Exhibit No. 345, heretofore identified as -the President's automobile, specify by penciled "X" where you stood? - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir [indicating]. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe for the record just what area it is back -there on which you stood? - -Mr. HILL. That is a step built into the rear bumper of the automobile, -and on top of the rear trunk there is a handguard which you grab for -and hang onto when you are standing up. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are identical objects of those descriptions existing on -each side of the President's car? - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; they do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any other occasion en route from Love Field -to downtown Dallas to leave the followup car and mount that portion of -the President's car? - -Mr. HILL. I did the same thing approximately four times. - -Mr. SPECTER. What are the standard regulations and practices, if any, -governing such an action on your part? - -Mr. HILL. It is left to the agent's discretion more or less to move to -that particular position when he feels that there is a danger to the -President; to place himself as close to the President or the First Lady -as my case was, as possible, which I did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are those practices specified in any written documents of -the Secret Service? - -Mr. HILL. No; they are not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, had there been any instruction or comment about -your performance of that type of a duty with respect to anything that -President Kennedy himself had said in the period immediately preceding -the trip to Texas? - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; there was. The preceding Monday, the President was -on a trip in Tampa, Fla., and he requested that the agents not ride on -either of those two steps. - -Mr. SPECTER. And to whom did the President make that request? - -Mr. HILL. Assistant Special Agent in Charge Boring. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was Assistant Special Agent in Charge Boring the -individual in charge of that trip to Florida? - -Mr. HILL. He was riding in the Presidential automobile on that trip in -Florida, and I presume that he was. I was not along. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, on that occasion would he have been in a position -comparable to that occupied by Special Agent Kellerman on this trip to -Texas? - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; the same position. - -Mr. SPECTER. And Special Agent Boring informed you of that instruction -by President Kennedy? - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; he did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he make it a point to inform other special agents of -that same instruction? - -Mr. HILL. I believe that he did, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And, as a result of what President Kennedy said to him, -did he instruct you to observe that Presidential admonition? - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. How, if at all, did that instruction of President Kennedy -affect your action and--your action in safeguarding him on this trip to -Dallas? - -Mr. HILL. We did not ride on the rear portions of the automobile. I did -on those four occasions because the motorcycles had to drop back and -there was no protection on the left-hand side of the car. - -Mr. SPECTER. When the President's automobile was proceeding in downtown -Dallas, what was the ordinary speed of the automobile, based on your -best estimate? - -Mr. HILL. We were running approximately 12 to 15 miles per hour, I -would say. - -Mr. SPECTER. I show you a document which we have marked as Commission -Exhibit No. 354, which is an aerial photograph identical with the -photograph already marked as Commission Exhibit No. 347. - -(The photograph referred to was marked Exhibit No. 354 for -identification.) - -Mr. SPECTER. I ask you if, referring only to Exhibit 354, you are able -to identify what that scene is. - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I am. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to indicate the route which the President's -motorcade followed through that area? - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I am. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what does that scene depict--what city is it? - -Mr. HILL. That is Dallas, Tex. It shows Main Street, Houston Street, -and Elm Street. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you write on the picture itself where Main Street is? -Would you now write, as best you can, which street is Houston Street? - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And would you now write which street is Elm? - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. - -(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you indicate, if you know, which is a generally -northerly direction on that picture? - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. What was the condition of the crowd as the -motorcade made a right-hand turn off of Main Street onto Houston? - -Mr. HILL. The crowd was very large on Main Street, and it was thinning -down considerably when we reached the end of it, and turned right -on Houston Street. Noticeably on my side of the car, which was the -left-hand side of the street. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is your best estimate as to the speed of the -President's car at the time it made the right-hand turn onto Houston -Street? - -Mr. HILL. In the curve? - -Mr. SPECTER. The speed--in the curve itself; yes. - -Mr. HILL. We were running generally 12 to 15 miles per hour. I would -say that in the curve we perhaps slowed to maybe 10 miles per hour. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how far behind the President's car was the -Presidential followup car as the turn was made onto Houston Street? - -Mr. HILL. Four to five feet, at the most. - -Mr. SPECTER. I show you a photograph of a building which has already -been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 348, and ask you if at this time -you can identify what that building is. - -Mr. HILL. I believe I can, sir; yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what building is it? - -Mr. HILL. It is the Texas School Book Depository. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, does that building appear on the Commission Exhibit -No. 354? - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; it does. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to notice the Texas School Book -Depository Building as you proceeded in a generally northerly direction -on Houston Street? - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. It was immediately in front of us and to our left. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice anything unusual about it? - -Mr. HILL. Nothing more unusual than any other building along the way. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your general practice, if any, in observing such -buildings along the route of a Presidential motorcade? - -Mr. HILL. We scan the buildings and look specifically for open windows, -for people hanging out, and there had been, on almost every building -along the way, people hanging out, windows open. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you observe, as you recollect at this moment, any -open windows in the Texas School Depository Building? - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; there were. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to recollect specifically which windows were -open at this time? - -Mr. HILL. No, sir; I cannot. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the condition of the crowd along the streets, if -any, along Elm Street, in front of the Texas School Book Depository -Building? - -Mr. HILL. On the left-hand side of the street, which is the side I was -on, the crowd was very thin. And it was a general park area. There were -people scattered throughout the entire park. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, what is your best estimate of the speed of the -President's automobile as it turned left off of Houston onto Elm Street? - -Mr. HILL. We were running still 12 to 15 miles per hour, but in the -curve I believe we slowed down maybe to 10, maybe to 9. - -Mr. SPECTER. How far back of the President's automobile was the -Presidential followup car when the President's followup car had just -straightened out on Elm Street? - -Mr. HILL. Approximately 5 feet. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, as the motorcade proceeded at that point, tell us -what happened. - -Mr. HILL. Well, as we came out of the curve, and began to straighten -up, I was viewing the area which looked to be a park. There were people -scattered throughout the entire park. And I heard a noise from my right -rear, which to me seemed to be a firecracker. I immediately looked -to my right, and, in so doing, my eyes had to cross the Presidential -limousine and I saw President Kennedy grab at himself and lurch forward -and to the left. - -Mr. SPECTER. Why don't you just proceed, in narrative form, to tell us? - -Representative BOGGS. This was the first shot? - -Mr. HILL. This is the first sound that I heard; yes, sir. I jumped from -the car, realizing that something was wrong, ran to the Presidential -limousine. Just about as I reached it, there was another sound, -which was different than the first sound. I think I described it in -my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard -object--it seemed to have some type of an echo. I put my right foot, I -believe it was, on the left rear step of the automobile, and I had a -hold of the handgrip with my hand, when the car lurched forward. I lost -my footing and I had to run about three or four more steps before I -could get back up in the car. - -Between the time I originally grabbed the handhold and until I was up -on the car, Mrs. Kennedy--the second noise that I heard had removed a -portion of the President's head, and he had slumped noticeably to his -left. Mrs. Kennedy had jumped up from the seat and was, it appeared to -me, reaching for something coming off the right rear bumper of the -car, the right rear tail, when she noticed that I was trying to climb -on the car. She turned toward me and I grabbed her and put her back in -the back seat, crawled up on top of the back seat and lay there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, referring to Commission Exhibit No. 354, would -you mark an "X", as best you can, at the spot where the President's -automobile was at the time the first shot occurred? - -Mr. HILL. Approximately there. - -Mr. SPECTER. And would you mark a "Y" at the approximate position where -the President's car was at the second shot you have described? What is -your best estimate of the speed of the President's car at the precise -time of the first shot, Mr. Hill? - -Mr. HILL. We were running between 12 to 15 miles per hour, but no -faster than 15 miles per hour. - -Mr. SPECTER. How many shots have you described that you heard? - -Mr. HILL. Two. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear any more than two shots? - -Mr. HILL. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is your best estimate of the speed of the -President's automobile at the time of the second shot? - -Mr. HILL. Approximately the same speed as that of the first--although -at the time that I jumped on the car, the car had surged forward. The -President at that time had been shot in the head. - -Mr. SPECTER. When, in relationship to the second shot, did the car -accelerate--that is, the President's car? - -Mr. HILL. Almost simultaneously. - -Mr. SPECTER. You testified just a moment ago that the President grabbed -at himself immediately after the first noise which you described as -sounding like a firecracker. - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us with more particularity in what way he -grabbed at himself? - -Mr. HILL. He grabbed in this general area. - -Mr. SPECTER. You are indicating that your right hand is coming up to -your--to the throat? - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And the left hand crosses right under the right hand. - -Mr. HILL. To the chest area. - -Mr. SPECTER. To the chest area. Was there any movement of the -President's head or shoulders immediately after the first shot, that -you recollect? - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. Immediately when I saw him, he was like this, and -going left and forward. - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a little fall to the left front. - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. - -Representative BOGGS. This was after a head wound? - -Mr. HILL. No, sir. - -Representative BOGGS. Before the head wound? - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; this was the first shot. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, what is your best estimate on the timespan between -the first firecracker-type noise you heard and the second shot which -you have described? - -Mr. HILL. Approximately 5 seconds. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, did the impact on the President's head occur -simultaneously, before, or after the second noise which you have -described? - -Mr. HILL. Almost simultaneously. - -Representative FORD. Did you see the President put his hands to his -throat and chest while you were still on the followup car, or after you -had left it? - -Mr. HILL. As I was leaving. And that is one of the reasons I jumped, -because I saw him grab himself and pitch forward and to the left. I -knew something was wrong. - -Representative FORD. It was 5 seconds from the firecracker noise that -you think you got to the automobile? - -Mr. HILL. Until I reached the handhold, had placed my foot on the left -rear step. - -Mr. SPECTER. When, in relationship to the second shot, did Mrs. Kennedy -move out of the rear seat? - -Mr. HILL. Just after it. - -Mr. SPECTER. You say that it appeared that she was reaching as if -something was coming over to the rear portion of the car, back in the -area where you were coming to? - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything back there that you observed, that she -might have been reaching for? - -Mr. HILL. I thought I saw something come off the back, too, but I -cannot say that there was. I do know that the next day we found the -portion of the President's head. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you find that portion of the President's head? - -Mr. HILL. It was found in the street. It was turned in, I believe, by a -medical student or somebody in Dallas. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any difficulty maintaining your balance on -the back of the car after you had come up on the top of it? - -Mr. HILL. Not until we turned off to enter the Parkland Hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, what action did you take specifically with respect to -placing Mrs. Kennedy back in the rear seat? - -Mr. HILL. I simply just pushed and she moved--somewhat -voluntarily--right back into the same seat she was in. The -President--when she had attempted to get out onto the trunk of the car, -his body apparently did not move too much, because when she got back -into the car he was at that time, when I got on top of the car, face up -in her lap. - -Mr. SPECTER. And that was after she was back in the rear seat? - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And where were the President's legs at that time? - -Mr. HILL. Inside the car. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, what, if anything, did you observe as to the -condition of Governor Connally at that time? - -Mr. HILL. After going under this underpass, I looked forward to the -jump seats, where Mrs. Connally and Governor Connally were sitting. -Mrs. Connally had been leaning over her husband. And I had no idea that -he had been shot. And when she leaned back at one time, I noticed that -his coat was unbuttoned, and that the lower portion of his abdomen was -completely covered with blood. - -Mr. SPECTER. When was it that you first observed that? - -Mr. HILL. Just after going under the underpass. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to observe anything which was occurring on -the overpass as the President's motorcade moved toward the overpass? - -Mr. HILL. From the time I got on the back of the Presidential -limousine, I didn't really pay any attention to what was going on -outside the automobile. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had you noticed the overpass prior to the time you got on -the Presidential automobile? - -Mr. HILL. Yes; I had scanned it. - -Mr. SPECTER. And do you recollect what, if anything, you observed on -the overpass at that time? - -Mr. HILL. There were some people there, but I also noticed there was a -policeman there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how many people would you say were there? - -Mr. HILL. Very few, I would say--maybe five, six. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how were you able to identify that there was a -policeman there? - -Mr. HILL. He was wearing the uniform--presumably a policeman. - -Mr. SPECTER. What color uniform was it? - -Mr. HILL. I think it was blue of some shade. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you identify it at that time as being of the identical -color which other Dallas policemen were wearing whom you had observed -in the area? - -Mr. HILL. That's correct, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you characterize the type of acceleration which the -car made after it started to speed forward--that is, the Presidential -car. - -Mr. HILL. Well, the initial surge was quite violent, because it -almost jerked me off the left rear step board. Then after that it was -apparently gradual, because I did not notice it any more. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the distance from the time -of the shooting to Parkland Hospital? - -Mr. HILL. In time or---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Time and distance. - -Mr. HILL. Distance, I have no idea. - -Mr. SPECTER. How about time? - -Mr. HILL. I would say roughly 4 minutes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Kennedy say anything as you were proceeding from -the time of the shooting to Parkland Hospital? - -Mr. HILL. At the time of the shooting, when I got into the rear of the -car, she said, "My God, they have shot his head off." Between there and -the hospital she just said, "Jack, Jack, what have they done to you," -and sobbed. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any conversation by anybody else in the -President's automobile from the time of the shooting to the arrival at -Parkland Hospital? - -Mr. HILL. I heard Special Agent Kellerman say on the radio, "To the -nearest hospital, quick." - -Mr. SPECTER. Any other comment? - -Mr. HILL. He said, "We have been hit." - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, was there any other comment you heard Special Agent -Kellerman make? - -Mr. HILL. Not that I recall. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Special Agent Greer say anything? - -Mr. HILL. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Connally say anything? - -Mr. HILL. No, sir. - -Representative BOGGS. Was Governor Connally conscious? - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; he was. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Governor Connally say anything? - -Mr. HILL. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did President Kennedy say anything? - -Mr. HILL. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate on the speed at which the -President's car traveled from the point of the shooting to Parkland -Hospital? - -Mr. HILL. It is a little bit hard for me to judge, since I was lying -across the rear portion of the automobile. I had no trouble staying in -that particular position--until we approached the hospital, I recall, -I believe it was a left-hand turn and I started slipping off to the -right-hand portion of the car. So I would say that we went 60, maybe 65 -at the most. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to secure a handhold or a leg-hold or any -sort of a hold on the automobile as you moved forward? - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. I had my legs--I had my body above the rear seat, -and my legs hooked down into the rear seat, one foot outside the car. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the time of the -assassination itself? - -Mr. HILL. Approximately 12:30. - -Mr. SPECTER. I am not sure whether I asked you about this--about how -long did it take you to get from the shooting to the hospital? - -Mr. HILL. Approximately 4 minutes. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to President Kennedy's condition -on arrival at the hospital? - -Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying -in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and -bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy -was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could -not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one -large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any opportunity to observe the front part of -his body, to see whether there was any tear or rip in the clothing on -the front? - -Mr. HILL. I saw him lying there in the back of the car, when I was -immediately above him. I cannot recall noticing anything that was -ripped in the forward portion of his body. - -Mr. SPECTER. What action, if any, did you take to shield the -President's body? - -Mr. HILL. I kept myself above the President and Mrs. Kennedy on the -trip to Parkland. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you do anything with your coat upon arrival at -Parkland Hospital to shield the President? - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. I removed it and covered the President's head and -upper chest. - -Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you observe as to Governor -Connally's condition on arrival at Parkland? - -Mr. HILL. He was conscious. There was a large amount of blood in -the lower abdominal area. He was helped from the automobile to the -stretcher, and I do not recall him saying anything, but I know that he -was conscious. He was wheeled immediately into, I think, emergency room -No. 2. - -Mr. SPECTER. And who was removed first from the automobile? - -Mr. HILL. Governor Connally. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long after the President's car arrived at Parkland -Hospital did medical personnel come to the scene to remove the victims? - -Mr. HILL. Seconds. They were there when we were there almost--almost -simultaneously with the arrival. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know where President Kennedy was taken in the -hospital? - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. I accompanied he, and Mrs. Kennedy to the emergency -room. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, tell us what you did at the hospital from the time of -arrival on, please. - -Mr. HILL. I went into the emergency room with the President, but it -was so small, and there were so many people in there that I decided I -had better leave and let the doctors take care of the situation. So I -walked outside; asked for the nearest telephone; walked to the nearest -telephone. About that time Special Agent in Charge Kellerman came -outside and said, "Get the White House." - -I asked Special Agent Lawson for the local number in Dallas of the -White House switchboard, which he gave to me. I called the switchboard -in Dallas; asked for the line to be open to Washington, and remain -open continuously. And then I asked for Special Agent in Charge Behn's -office. Mr. Kellerman came out of the emergency room about that time, -took the telephone and called Special Agent in Charge Behn that we -had had a double tragedy; that both Governor Connally and President -Kennedy had been shot. And that was about as much as he said. I then -took the telephone and shortly thereafter Mr. Kellerman came out of the -emergency room and said, "Clint, tell Jerry this is unofficial and not -for release, but the man is dead." Which I did. During the two calls, -I talked to the Attorney General, who attempted to reach me, and told -him that his brother had been seriously wounded; that we would keep him -advised as to his condition. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where was Mrs. Kennedy all this time, if you know? - -Mr. HILL. Immediately upon arrival, she went into the emergency room. -And a few minutes afterward, she was convinced to wait outside, which -she did, remained there the rest of the period of time that we were -there. - -Mr. SPECTER. And was there any pronouncement that the President had -died? - -Mr. HILL. Not that I know of. Apparently there was. I was requested by -Mr. O'Donnell, one of the Presidential assistants, to obtain a casket, -because they wanted to return to Washington immediately. I contacted -the administrator of the hospital and asked him to take me where I -could telephone the nearest mortuary, which I did, requested that their -best available casket be brought to the emergency entrance in my name -immediately. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what action was taken as a result of that request by -you? - -Mr. HILL. The casket did arrive from the O'Neal Mortuary, Inc., in -their own hearse, which we then wheeled into the emergency room. I -left the emergency room and asked that two of our agents, Special -Agent Sulliman and Assistant Special Agent in Charge Stout clear all -the corridors, and I checked the closest and most immediate route to -the ambulance. We took the body from the hospital and departed the -Parkland Hospital about 2:04 p.m. The ambulance was driven by Special -Agent Berger. Special Agent in Charge Kellerman and Assistant Special -Agent In Charge Stout were riding in the front seat; Mrs. Kennedy, Dr. -Burkley, the President's body, and myself rode in the rear portion of -the ambulance. - -Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long did it take you to reach the -airplane at Love Field? - -Mr. HILL. We arrived at Love Field at 2:14. - -Mr. SPECTER. And were you present during the swearing-in ceremonies of -President Johnson? - -Mr. HILL. I was aboard the aircraft; yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you witness those ceremonies? - -Mr. HILL. Well, the Presidential compartment was so small that not all -persons on the aircraft could get in. I was in the forward portion of -the aircraft, right adjacent to the area that the President was sworn -in. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the time of the swearing in? - -Mr. HILL. 2:38. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what time did the Presidential aircraft depart? - -Mr. HILL. 2:47. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what time it arrived in the Washington area? - -Mr. HILL. 5:59, I believe, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And where did it land? - -Mr. HILL. We landed at Andrews Air Force Base. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what action, if any, in connection with this matter -did you take following landing? - -Mr. HILL. I assisted Mrs. Kennedy and the Attorney General, who had -joined her at that time, into the ambulance bearing the President's -body, and I entered the automobile immediately behind the ambulance -with Dr. John Walsh, Mrs. Kennedy's physician, and members of President -Kennedy's staff. - -Mr. SPECTER. And where did you go then? - -Mr. HILL. Immediately to Bethesda Naval Hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you stay with the President's family at that time? - -Mr. HILL. When we arrived there, I went to the 17th floor with Mrs. -Kennedy, and I remained with Mrs. Kennedy except for one time when I -was requested to come to the morgue to view the President's body. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you view the President's body? - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What action did you take following the time you viewed the -President's body in the morgue? - -Mr. HILL. After the viewing of the President's body? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. - -Mr. HILL. I returned to the 17th floor and remained with Mrs. Kennedy -until we departed the hospital. - -Representative BOGGS. May I ask a question? At the hospital in Texas, -you had seen--had you seen the whole body, or just the back of the -President's head? - -Mr. HILL. I had seen the whole body, but he was still cold when I saw -him. - -Representative BOGGS. At the morgue in Bethesda he was not cold? - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; the autopsy had been completed, and the Lawler -Mortuary Co. was preparing the body for placement in a casket. - -Representative BOGGS. At this time did you see the whole body? - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. - -Representative BOGGS. Did you see any other wound other than the head -wound? - -Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I saw an opening in the back, about 6 inches below -the neckline to the right-hand side of the spinal column. - -Representative BOGGS. Was there a frontal neck injury? - -Mr. HILL. There was an area here that had been opened but---- - -Mr. SPECTER. You are indicating---- - -Mr. HILL. In the neck. It was my understanding at that time that this -was done by a tracheotomy. - -Mr. SPECTER. What else, if anything, of importance did you do between -the time you viewed the body in the morgue until the termination of -your duties on that date, Mr. Hill? - -Mr. HILL. We handled all communications on the 17th floor, up to the -17th floor, for Mrs. Kennedy, members of her family, Cabinet members -who were there at that time, and secured the 17th floor for all -personnel. No one was permitted there that we did not know. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time did you leave the 17th floor? - -Mr. HILL. I believe, sir, it was 3:56, but I am not sure of the exact -time. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you go from there? - -Mr. HILL. We went downstairs to the rear of the hospital, where -the body was placed in a naval ambulance. I entered an automobile -immediately behind the ambulance. Mrs. Kennedy and the Attorney General -got into the rear of the ambulance with the body. - -Mr. SPECTER. And from there, where did you go? - -Mr. HILL. I accompanied them to the White House. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did that mark the termination of your duties for that -day? - -Mr. HILL. No, sir. I remained on duty until approximately 6:30 in the -morning; went home, changed clothes, and came back. - -Mr. SPECTER. I believe you testified as to the impression you had as to -the source of the first shot. To be sure that the record is complete, -what was your reaction as to where the first shot came from, Mr. Hill? - -Mr. HILL. Right rear. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you have a reaction or impression as to the source -of point of origin of the second shot that you described? - -Mr. HILL. It was right, but I cannot say for sure that it was rear, -because when I mounted the car it was--it had a different sound, first -of all, than the first sound that I heard. The second one had almost a -double sound--as though you were standing against something metal and -firing into it, and you hear both the sound of a gun going off and the -sound of the cartridge hitting the metal place, which could have been -caused probably by the hard surface of the head. But I am not sure that -that is what caused it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you describing this double sound with respect to what -you heard on the occasion of the second shot? - -Mr. HILL. The second shot that I heard; yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, do you now or have you ever had the impression or -reaction that there was a shot which originated from the front of the -Presidential car? - -Mr. HILL. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. That is all I have. - -The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, any questions you would like to ask? - -Representative FORD. No. - -Representative BOGGS. I have no questions, Mr. Chief Justice. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Craig. - -Mr. CRAIG. No, thank you, Mr. Chief Justice. - -The CHAIRMAN. If not, thank you very much. We appreciate your coming. - -Mr. HILL. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Youngblood, will you raise your right hand? Do you -solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this Commission will -be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you -God? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I do, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Be seated, please. - -Mr. Specter will conduct the examination. - - -TESTIMONY OF RUFUS WAYNE YOUNGBLOOD, SPECIAL AGENT, SECRET SERVICE - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Rufus Wayne Youngblood. - -Mr. SPECTER. How old are you, Mr. Youngblood? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Forty. - -Mr. SPECTER. And by whom are you employed? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. The U.S. Secret Service. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been so employed? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Since March of 1951. - -Mrs. SPECTER. What is your educational background, sir? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I graduated from Georgia Institute of Technology. -Bachelor of Industrial Engineering. - -Mr. SPECTER. In what year? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. 1949. - -Mr. SPECTER. How were you occupied from termination of your college -work until starting with the Secret Service? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I worked for Bradshaws, Inc., which was a refrigeration -and air-conditioning concern in Waycross, Ga., and then worked for -Alvin Lindstrom, who is a consulting mechanical engineer in Atlanta, Ga. - -Mr. SPECTER. And would you outline in general terms what your duties -have been with the Secret Service since the time you joined them? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I began in the Secret Service as a special agent, -criminal investigator, and started off at the Atlanta field office, -and stayed there about a year and a half. This time was spent -in investigation of Government forged check cases, bond cases, -counterfeiting, and similar investigations. - -(At this point, Chief Justice Warren withdrew from the hearing room.) - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I came to the Washington, DC. area, and worked in the -Washington field office, a continuation of the same type of work I had -done in Atlanta, plus the beginning of the protective work, working -on temporary assignment at the White House detail. And then in 1953 -I was assigned to the White House detail and worked there during the -Eisenhower Administration about 6 years, and returned to the Atlanta -field office for 3 more years in that area, during which time President -Eisenhower would come to Augusta and Albany, and on two occasions on -foreign trips I was called in. - -And after 3 years in that field office, I returned to Washington again, -assigned to the White House detail. The last part of the Eisenhower -Administration and the beginning of the Kennedy Administration. - -And in March of 1961, I was assigned to the Vice-Presidential detail. -This, at that time, was part of the Washington field office. And I have -been on an assignment with the Vice-Presidential detail since March -1961, except for a 1-month period when I returned to the White House -detail. And then back to the Vice-Presidential detail. - -But during this time, the Vice-Presidential detail changed from a -field office assignment to a small independent office, and then, -later, in October of 1962, when legislation was passed, changing -the laws relative to protection of the Vice President, it became a -larger detail. And I have been on the Vice-Presidential detail in the -occurrence at Dallas, and returned to the White House detail when Mr. -Johnson became the President. - -And during this period of time, I have been a special agent, assistant -special agent in charge, and was scheduled to be the special agent in -charge of the Vice-Presidential detail. But due to what occurred in -Dallas, I went to the White House as an assistant special agent in -charge. - -Any other particulars? - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, what was your rank at the time of the Dallas trip, -specifically on November 22, 1963? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I was the assistant special agent in charge of the -Vice-Presidential detail. - -(At this point, Chief Justice Warren entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. SPECTER. And as such, were you responsible for the security of the -Vice President on that trip? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, what is your current rank? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Assistant special agent in charge of the White House -detail. - -Mr. SPECTER. And, as such, do you hold one of the three positions of -the assistant special agent in charge at the White House detail? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And is that a rank comparable or exactly the same as that -now held by Special Agent Kellerman? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir; he is senior to me, but it is a comparable -rank. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you outline briefly and in general terms the -activities of Vice President Johnson during the few days immediately -before Friday, November 22, 1963? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. On Tuesday of that week we made a trip from the ranch -to Dallas, and we went by commercial plane--actually, from the ranch -to Austin in the Vice President's plane, and from Austin to Dallas on -a commercial plane. And while in Dallas, he addressed the Bottlers -Convention. And we returned to the plane, flew back to Austin, then -flew back to the ranch later that night, and remained at the ranch the -next day and through Thursday. - -And on Thursday we went to San Antonio, to join the group coming down -from Washington. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, when did Vice President Johnson then address the -Bottlers Association in Dallas? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. That was on Tuesday. - -Mr. SPECTER. November 19? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I would have to look at a calendar. - -Mr. SPECTER. The preceding Tuesday---- - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. The preceding Tuesday before the 22d; yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, outline in a general way Vice President Johnson's -activities on the morning of November 22d, before he arrived in Dallas, -if you would, please. - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, our day began at the hotel in Fort Worth, where -we had stayed overnight. And that morning we went down to a mezzanine -floor where we met with President Kennedy and a group of White House -people. We went across from this hotel to a parking lot across the -street, and they had a speaker stand there, and they addressed an -assembled gathering. - -Then they returned to the hotel, and there was a breakfast meeting in -the hotel. They attended that. And, after that, we formed a motorcade -and went to the field nearby in Fort Worth and boarded Air Force 2, and -flew into Dallas. - -Mr. SPECTER. Approximately what time did the Vice Presidential plane -arrive in Dallas? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. About 11:35. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you tell the Commission in general terms what -Vice President Johnson did upon arrival at the Love Field? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. All right, sir. - -This plane, Air Force 2, had on board the Vice President and Mrs. -Johnson and other officials. And we disembarked from the plane and were -met by a welcoming committee composed of local dignitaries. And then we -moved from that area where we disembarked over to the area of the ramp, -which would be pushed out when Air Force 1, the President's plane, -arrived. And when his plane did arrive, which was just a few minutes -after ours, roughly 10 minutes, we went out to the foot of the ramp and -Vice President Johnson and Mrs. Johnson headed the reception committee -to greet the people who came off of Air Force 1. - -Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long did the activities in greeting the -crowd and the general reception last at Love Field on that morning? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Do you mean from the time we arrived on Air Force 2 -until we left? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I think it was about 15 minutes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, in what position in the motorcade was Vice President -Johnson's automobile? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. We were following the Presidential followup car, and -the motorcade up to our point--there was a lead car, the President's -car, the Presidential followup car, and then our car. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there, to your knowledge, in advance of the lead car a -car known as the pilot car? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir; in all probability. This is a normal police -arrangement. - -Mr. SPECTER. And would you identify the occupants of Vice President -Johnson's car, indicating the positions in the car of each individual? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. All right, sir. The driver of this car was Hurchel -Jacks, and he is with the State Highway Patrol. And behind him was -Senator Ralph Yarborough, from Texas. And in the middle back seat was -Mrs. Johnson. And on the right-hand side of the back seat, behind me, -was the Vice President. And I was in the front seat on the right-hand -side. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what kind of an automobile was it? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. This was a Lincoln convertible, a four-door convertible. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is this a specially constructed automobile, or was it -obtained locally for use during this trip? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. It was obtained locally for use during the trip. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what car immediately followed the Vice President's -automobile? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. The Vice Presidential detail had a followup car which -followed our car. - -Mr. SPECTER. What kind of an automobile was that? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. It was either a Lincoln or a Mercury, I don't know the -exact make. It was a Ford product, and it was a four-door car. But it -was closed. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify the occupants of that car, stating where -each sat? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. The front seat, the driver, I think his name is Rich. -He is always on the Texas Highway Patrol. In the front seat in the -middle is Cliff Carter. He is an assistant to the Vice President's -staff. - -(At this point, Representative Boggs withdrew from the hearing room.) - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. On the right-front side was Jerry Kivett. He is one -of the agents on the Vice Presidential detail. And in the back seat, -behind the driver, was Warren Taylor, and in the back seat on the other -side was my agent, Lem Johns. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how many cars there were in the balance of the -motorcade? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the maximum speed at which the motorcade -proceeded from Love Field down to the downtown area of Dallas? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I doubt if the motorcade ever exceeded 20 miles or 25 -miles an hour, and most of the time it was going slower than that. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the minimum speed, would you estimate, during -that time? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. We actually came to stops during this time. - -Mr. SPECTER. How many stops? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. More than one. Two or more. - -Mr. SPECTER. What occurred during the course of those stops, or what -prompted them? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, these stops were made by the Presidential car -to greet well-wishers, students on one particular occasion, and other -groups of well-wishers, that were assembled along the streets. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did Vice President Johnson greet anyone at those stops? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. He did greet them, but he didn't leave the car, I -think. He remained in the car. I got out of the car and stood by the -side of it on more than one occasion. He waved at people, and some did -run over, and I think he did touch some. But he didn't leave the car. - -Mr. SPECTER. How far behind the President's followup car did the Vice -President's followup car drive? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. The Vice President's followup car? - -Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me--the Vice President's automobile. - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. We usually stayed on motorcades like this about two or -three car lengths behind. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did your distance on this occasion conform to your -customary practice of being that distance behind? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is the reason, if any, for staying that distance -behind the President's followup car? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, mainly so the crowd can see the Vice President, -and he can see them. If you are too close behind the Presidential -group, the crowd will be watching the President and will watch him -as he goes by, and then they will miss the next man. So it gives the -people a chance to recover and look back and see him, and they to see -each other. - -Mr. SPECTER. I show you a photograph which has been marked as -Commission Exhibit No. 354, and ask you if you are able to identify -what that is a picture of. - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what does that depict? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, it is a picture showing the main street, Houston -Street and Elm Street, and the assassination occurred on Elm Street. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you familiar at this time with the identities of Main, -Houston, and Elm? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir; when I have a map such as this ahead of me. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. How far behind the President's automobile was -the Vice President's automobile in which you were riding when the Vice -President's automobile turned right off of Main Street onto Houston? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. You ask again how far were we behind the President's -car? Did you mean, sir, how far were we behind the Presidential -followup car? - -Mr. SPECTER. No; I meant the President's car on that occasion. - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, we were a distance of about two car lengths -behind the followup car, and they were probably one car length behind -the Presidential car. But this would be a guess on my part. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the situation with respect to the crowd which was -lined up on Houston and Elm as you approached that intersection? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. On Houston Street, on the side where the tall building -is, the crowd was still somewhat continuous. On the side which is the -park side, the crowd was smaller. They did have some people there, but -it wasn't continuous in the same way it was on the building side. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the speed of the Vice -President's car as you proceeded down Houston Street toward Elm Street? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, our speed, of course, was governed by the -vehicles in front of us, but I would say we had just made one turn, and -it was only a block there before we would make another turn. It was -approximately 10 miles an hour, between 10 and 15. - -Mr. SPECTER. I show you a photograph which has been marked as -Commission Exhibit No. 348, and I ask you if you are now able to -identify what that building is? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir; I am now able to identify it. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is that building, sir? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. That is the School Book Depository Building. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where, as best you can recollect, was the Vice President's -car at the time the first shots were heard? And would you take -Commission Exhibit No. 354 and take the red pencil and mark as closely -as you can the exact position on Commission Exhibit 354 of the Vice -President's car with the capital letter "A" there? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. At the time of the first shot, did you say? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. It will be in this area here, I should think. - -Mr. SPECTER. I want the Vice President's car at this time. - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, this is what I am attempting to locate. It would -be in the vicinity of this "X" right here, I do believe. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, will you describe---- - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Excuse me. You said put an "A" here? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, please. Will you describe just what occurred as the -motorcade proceeded past the intersection of Houston and Elm Streets? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, the crowd had begun to diminish, looking ahead -and to the right the crowd became spotty. I mean it wasn't continuous -at all, like it had been. As we were beginning to go down this incline, -all of a sudden there was an explosive noise. I quickly observed -unnatural movement of crowds, like ducking or scattering, and quick -movements in the Presidential followup car. So I turned around and hit -the Vice President on the shoulder and hollered, get down, and then -looked around again and saw more of this movement, and so I proceeded -to go to the back seat and get on top of him. - -I then heard two more shots. But I would like to say this. I would not -be positive that I was back on that back seat before the second shot. -But the Vice President himself said I was. But--then in hearing these -two more shots, I again had seen more movement, and I think someone -else hit a siren--I heard the noise of a siren. - -I told the driver to close it up, and stick close to that car in front. -And right away we started a hasty evacuation speed, and left this -immediate area, and we were following close behind. And I had a radio -which was on a Baker frequency, where I could communicate back with the -agents in my followup car. And they had a Charlie frequency, which was -on the same network of the Presidential motorcade. And I called back -and said I am switching to Baker frequency--I said, "I am switching to -Charlie." And as I switched, I heard some transmission over the Charlie -sets saying for me to keep my man covered, and I heard Kivett reply to -Emory Roberts that he was covered, and I saw agents in the followup -car, the Presidential followup car signaling us to stay close. I asked -the driver what his opinion was as to--I don't know for exact sure -just where we were going, but I knew our best protection was to stay -with that Presidential followup crew. And I asked the driver if he had -passed the Trade Mart. He said he passed it and we were going on to the -hospital. And I heard indications over the radio that we were going to -the hospital. We had a very fast ride there. - -I told the driver to go as fast as he could without having a wreck. -There was some conversation between the Vice President and myself -while we were going to the hospital. I told him that I didn't know -how serious it was up in the front car, but when we arrived at the -hospital, I would like to get out of the car and go into the building -and not stop, and for him to stay close to myself and the other agents. -He agreed to. - -When we arrived at the hospital, we immediately went right in. As we -stopped at the hospital, two of my agents from the Vice Presidential -car, followup car, were coming up to meet us, and two from the -Presidential followup were coming to meet us, and, with this group, we -proceeded into the hospital and then went into a room. I posted one -man at the door and said, not to let anyone in unless he knew him, was -certain of his identity. - -I told Jerry Kivett and Warren Taylor to pull all the shades and -blinds, which they did. And they also busied themselves with evacuating -a couple of people out of there. There was a nurse and a patient in -there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Before you go on, Mr. Youngblood, let me drop back and -pick up a few of the details theretofore. - -What would your best estimate be of the speed of the Vice President's -car at the time you heard that first explosive noise? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Oh, approximately 12 miles an hour. - -Mr. SPECTER. And had you maintained the distance which you have -described heretofore behind the President's followup car? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, generally. Sometimes as we went around corners, -we tried to close up the gap a little bit. But as soon as we got on a -straight stretch, we would drop back two or three car lengths. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, at this particular time, what is your best -recollection of the distance between the Presidential followup car and -the Vice President's car? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. We are on Elm Street now. - -Mr. SPECTER. At the time the first shot occurred. - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. We were two or three car lengths behind. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how far behind the President's car was the -Presidential followup car at the time of the first shot? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I would think somewhat less than a car length. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the total timespan between -the first and third shots which you have already described? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. From the beginning to the last? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I would think 5 seconds. - -Mr. SPECTER. And you have described the first shot as being an -explosive noise. How would you describe each of the second and third -shots? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, there wasn't too much difference in the noise -of the first shot and the last two. I am not really sure that there -was a difference. But in my mind, I think I identified the last two -positively as shots, whereas the first one I thought was just an -explosive noise, and I didn't know whether it was a firecracker or a -shot. It seems, as I try to think over it, there was more of a crack -sound to the last two shots. That may have been distance, I don't know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, as to time interval--was there longer or less time or -the same between the first and second shots and the second and third -shots? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. There seemed to be a longer span of time between the -first and the second shot than there was between the second and third -shot. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you have any reaction or impression as to the -source or point of origin of the first shot? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I didn't know where the source or the point of origin -was, of course, but the sounds all came to my right and rear. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, how about as to the latter two shots, would the same -apply, or would there be a different situation there? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. No; all of them seemed to sound that they were from the -right. - -Representative FORD. Did they sound on the surface or in the air or -couldn't you discern? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I couldn't say for certain. I don't know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you then or have you ever had any contrary -impression that the shots might have come from in front as opposed to -the rear of the automobile? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, you say that you hit the Vice President's shoulder, -and at that time you were indicating your left hand, I believe. - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Which hand did you use in hitting the Vice President's -shoulder? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. My left, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And which shoulder of the Vice President did you hit? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. His right, because I turned this way. I turned to my -left, with the hand out, and then came into his right shoulder. - -Mr. SPECTER. And when you moved from the front to the rear seat, would -you describe in as much detail as you can your relative position with -respect to the position of President Johnson's body? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, the Vice President says that I vaulted over. It -was more of a stepping over. And then I sat on top of him, he being -crouched down somewhat. - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating towards the left? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. He moved towards the center, or towards his left, yes, -sir, and down. And then I sat on this portion of his arm here. - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the right upper portion of the arm from elbow -to the shoulder? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir; generally. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what were the positions of the other occupants of the -back seat at the time you sat on the Vice President? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Mrs. Johnson more or less moved into a forward--just -moved forward. And Senator Yarborough also moved forward, and possibly -he moved over a little to the right. I am not sure. But we were all -below the window level of the car. And those two generally were -forward. But the Vice President was forward and a little to his left. - -Mr. SPECTER. In what direction did you look when you were first sitting -on the Vice President? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. In what direction did I look? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Almost all directions. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a reaction with respect to looking in the -direction from which you thought the danger was emanating? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I think I first looked to the right--but to the right, -forward, up, as much as I could scan, and also the people in the -Presidential followup car. Because I recall seeing at the time one of -our agents, Hickey, who was in the Presidential followup car, in almost -a standing position with an AR-15 looking back and up. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to fix the precise time of the assassination? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I would say 12:30. I was to keep the times. The Vice -President was asking me if we were running on time, and so forth. And -so he asked me how much further, and I would call back to our followup -car and ask them how many more miles and so forth. - -So, for this reason, I was at that time keeping up with the time very -closely. And when we turned the corner, I noticed an illuminated clock -sign on this building, which I now know is the School Book Depository -Building. And that clock indicated 12:30. And the reason it is -significant is because this was the time we were supposed to arrive at -the Trade Mart. - -Representative FORD. As you looked at the school depository building, -and noticed this clock, where is the clock? Can you identify it? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. This, right here. - -Representative FORD. It is on top of the roof? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir; right up here. - -Representative FORD. And this is after you turned from Main Street on -to Houston Street? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. We were on Houston Street--just as soon as we got on -Houston Street. And I looked up and I saw it there. - -Representative FORD. Did you notice anything else on the building as -you scanned it from the top down, or from the bottom up? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I noticed open windows, and some people, I think. But I -didn't notice this particular window. - -Representative FORD. You saw nothing unusual in any of the open windows -that you noticed? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, sir, all through the day here we had been passing -buildings with windows and people. And that I saw. But I saw nothing -unusual. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Youngblood, what is your best estimate as to the time -it took to get to Parkland Hospital after the shooting occurred? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I believe it was between 5 and 8 minutes, something of -that nature. - -(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.) - -Mr. SPECTER. And at what speed did your automobile proceed, based on -your best estimate, en route from the shooting to Parkland Hospital? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I believe we were going around 60 or 70 miles an hour -at times. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you observe President Kennedy or Governor -Connally being removed from the President's automobile? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. No, sir; because I had--as I mentioned before--I had -told the Vice President, or suggested to the Vice President that we did -not want to linger, and get into the building as quickly as we could, -and we would find out the condition of the other party after we got -into a safe place. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had they already been taken in by the time you arrived at -the scene? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. No, sir; I don't hardly see how they could have been, -because we arrived almost simultaneously with them. It was just a -matter of opening the door and getting out of the car and hastily -walking right on past. I think they were in the act of removing these -people, but I don't think they would have had time to have removed them. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you enter the emergency entrance as well? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, I interrupted you before when you were describing the -security arrangements which you were making on the room to which you -took the Vice President. Would you continue and describe for us what -occurred thereafter? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. At what point? - -Mr. SPECTER. I interrupted you. You were in the room, you had pulled -the shades down, and were making security arrangements for the Vice -President. - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, we were in a corner of this room, and there was -the Vice President, Mrs. Johnson, and myself at first, with agents -Kivett and Warren Taylor also in the big room, but not right over in -the corner at the beginning. And shortly thereafter Emory Roberts came -in. He was one of the White House detail agents. He told us that the -situation--situation with President Kennedy looked very bad. The Vice -President asked me what I thought--what we should do. And I said I -think we should evacuate the hospital as soon as we can, and get on -the plane, and return to Washington. And Emory Roberts concurred. And -the Vice President agreed. But he wanted to get a better report on the -condition and so forth. - -Then we were joined by many others. Congressman Homer Thornberry came -in, and Congressman Brooks, and Cliff Carter, and the Vice President -had some conversations with these gentlemen. And at one time Cliff -went out and got coffee. And then Mr. Ken O'Donnell and Roy Kellerman -came down on one occasion, and Ken O'Donnell said for us to return to -Washington, and to go ahead and take the President's plane. - -The Vice President was worried about Mrs. Kennedy. So Mrs. Johnson -thought that she would go see Mrs. Kennedy and Mrs. Connally. She did. -Agents Kivett and Taylor went with her. Then later, after she came -back, Ken O'Donnell and Roy Kellerman came down again and told us that -the President had died. - -Mr. SPECTER. About what time was that, sir? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I don't know. I had told Lem Johns to try to keep up -with all the times. I think it is a matter of record. I believe you -have it in other documents. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, are you referring to a document which I will mark as -Commission Exhibit 355? - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 355 for -identification.) - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. This is our shift report, and this is the times that -Lem Johns was keeping that day. He shows 1 p.m., President Kennedy died -at Parkland Hospital. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was that daily shift report prepared under your -supervision, Mr. Youngblood? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you review it and approve it when it was completed, -after the end of the workday on November 22? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, not exactly at the end of the workday, sir. These -agents would keep notes. And in this particular case you can see that -this one, it says, "Date completed, December 2" down at the bottom. -That is when he got around to typing it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, does this document bear your initial in any place? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir; up at the top. The "RYW" is my initials. - -Mr. SPECTER. And does that signify your approval shortly after -completion of the document? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. Would you go ahead and tell us what your -activities were from the time you had learned that the President had -died? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, when Mr. O'Donnell and Roy Kellerman told us that -he had died, the Vice President said, "Well, how about Mrs. Kennedy?" - -O'Donnell told the Vice President that Mrs. Kennedy would not leave the -hospital without the President's body. And O'Donnell suggested we go -to the plane and that they just come on the other plane. And I might -add that, as a word of explanation, there were two jet planes, one Air -Force 1, in which the President flew, and the other Air Force 2, in -which the Vice President and his party flew on. And O'Donnell told us -to go ahead and take Air Force 1. I believe this is mainly because Air -Force 1 has better communications equipment and so forth than the other -planes. - -President Johnson said that he didn't want to go off and leave Mrs. -Kennedy in such a state. And so he agreed that we would go on to the -airplane and board the plane and wait until Mrs. Kennedy and the body -would come out. Shall I go on? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. Proceed. Did you then depart from Parkland Hospital? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir; previous to all of this, I had Johns, my -agent, line up some unmarked police cars so that they would be ready -when we did decide to evacuate the hospital. - -So we left the room and proceeded out to these cars. The car that -we went in was driven by Chief Curry, the Dallas Police Chief, and -Congressman Thornberry was in the front seat, and the Vice President -and I were in the back seat. And I had told the Vice President before -we left the room that I would prefer that he stay below window level, -and stay close with me as we went out, and that I would also prefer -Mrs. Johnson to go in another car, but she would be accompanied by -agents. And Mrs. Johnson did get in a second car. She was accompanied -by Warren Taylor and Jerry Kivett and Congressman Brooks, and also Glen -Bennett, another agent from the White House. - -And as we started to leave the hospital area, that is drive away, -just as we started away, Congressman Thomas saw us leaving--I imagine -he saw Congressman Thornberry, and he said, "Wait for me." I don't -think he saw the Vice President. And I told the driver to continue. I -didn't want to stop there in front of the hospital. But by this time -Congressman Thomas was right over at the side of the car, and the Vice -President said, "Stop and let him get in." - -So he got in in the front seat with Congressman Thornberry, having -Congressman Thornberry move over closer to the driver. And then we -started out again. This probably takes longer to tell about it than it -actually took. It was about a 30-second stop. - -We started out again, and the Vice President asked Congressman -Thornberry to climb on over and get in the back seat, which he did, -while the car was in motion. And then that put Congressman Thornberry -behind the driver, and on the Vice President's left, and I was on his -right. - -And we continued on our way. We were momentarily stopped as we were -leaving the hospital on this access road. There was a truck or delivery -or something coming in there. We were stopped for one moment. But then -the police got us on through, and we went on out to the main roads, and -we were getting a motorcycle escort. - -And they started using the sirens, and the Vice President and I both -asked Chief Curry to discontinue the use of sirens, that we didn't want -to attract attention. We were going on an unscheduled different route. -We were not using any particular route. But in telling Lem Johns to get -a car available, I told him to be sure and get a local driver who knew -the area, a local policeman who could take us any route that we needed -to go, and knew all the areas of evacuation and so forth. - -So we went on to the airport. But we did have him stop using the -sirens. And just before arriving at the airport, I called on the radio -and told Air Force 1 to be ready to receive us, that we would be coming -on board immediately. We arrived there and ran up the ramp onto the -plane. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how long after that did the swearing-in ceremonies -occur? Approximately? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I would say in the neighborhood of about 40 or 45 -minutes after that. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long after the arrival of the Vice President on the -plane did the party of the late President Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy -arrive at the plane? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Approximately--after we got on the plane, I would say -it was approximately 30 or 35 minutes before Mrs. Kennedy and that -party arrived. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how long after the swearing-in ceremonies did the -plane take off for the Washington area? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. After the swearing-in ceremonies, it took off -immediately. It was just a matter of letting the people who had to get -off the plane, such as Judge Hughes and Chief Curry disembark, and as -soon as they had disembarked, we closed the door and started taxiing -out. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were there any conversations between Vice President -Johnson and anyone else with respect to advice on the swearing-in -ceremonies? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir. I think probably the first thing the Vice -President did after he got on board the plane was to place a call to -the Attorney General. In fact, he talked to the Attorney General, I -believe, two times--at least two times. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you present when those conversations occurred? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I was present when he placed the first call. I think he -placed the first call from the bedroom there of the plane. Then someone -from the Attorney General's office called back--not the Attorney -General, but someone from the office--and gave the wording of the oath. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you informed as to what advice Vice President Johnson -received from Mr. Kennedy with respect to the time of swearing in? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I heard him discussing this--because after we got on -board the plane I told them to pull down the shades, and then I told -the Vice President, I am going to stick with you like glue while we -are on the ground here. And so we were joined by Mrs. Johnson and then -by Congressman Thornberry and Thomas, and Congressman Brooks. And I -heard them discussing about taking the oath immediately, right there in -Dallas. I heard the Vice President ask about anyone in particular that -should administer the oath. And as I gathered from conversation, it was -anyone who was authorized to administer a Federal oath. And then he put -in calls to Judge Hughes, and he told me to expect Judge Hughes and to -be sure she could get through the security lines. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, were you informed that Attorney General Kennedy -advised Vice President Johnson that he should have himself sworn in as -promptly as possible? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, as I said, I was in the area, in their immediate -vicinity, when they were talking about it. And this is what I gathered -from hearing them talk--that the Attorney General had told him to go -ahead and be sworn in there, as soon as possible. - -Mr. SPECTER. And upon arrival back in Andrews Air Force Base, what -activity, if any, were you engaged in then, along with President -Johnson? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, on the plane, on the flight up here, there had -been numerous radio contacts in making arrangements and so forth. But -when we actually arrived, Mrs. Kennedy and the body were removed first -by the lift that was provided, and then when the ramp was in place, -our party disembarked from the plane, and then President Johnson had a -short statement that he was to make, and we went over to an area where -the microphones were set up, and he made this brief statement. And then -we proceeded from there to the awaiting helicopter, which was just a -few yards away. We boarded the helicopter and flew in to the south -grounds of the White House. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you then accompany President Johnson to his home? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. He didn't go to his home at that time; but the answer -to your question is yes, when he did go later that night. You see, -he went to his office in the EOB, the Executive Office Building, and -conducted business there until in the vicinity of 9 o'clock. And then -he went home, at which time I accompanied him, and many other agents. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe briefly what security arrangements if -any were instituted on that day for the Vice President's daughters? - -Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir. - -While we were in the hospital, receiving these reports relative to -President Kennedy's condition, I asked Mrs. Johnson--I knew generally -where Luci and Lynda were, but I wanted to get the very latest from -her, since sometimes these girls might visit a friend or a relative. -And I knew that Lynda was going to the University of Texas, and that -Luci was going to National Cathedral. So I confirmed the locations with -Mrs. Johnson and then told Agent Kivett, who was in our presence at the -time I was talking to her, to make the necessary calls to have Secret -Service protection placed around Lynda and Luci. And Agent Kivett made -these calls and then came back and reported to me that Lockwood, from -Austin, who is in the San Antonio office, but he was in Austin at the -time, had proceeded to the University of Texas to get Lynda, and that -an agent from the Washington field office would go out and get Luci at -the school. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, I move for the admission into evidence -of Commission Exhibits No. 354, which is a reproduction of the overhead -shot, and 355, which is a reproduction of the Vice Presidential detail -schedules. - -The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted. - -(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission -Exhibits Nos. 354 and 355, were received in evidence.) - -Mr. SPECTER. That concludes my questions, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Craig, any questions? - -Mr. CRAIG. No, sir. - -Mr. MURRAY. I have no questions, Mr. Chief Justice. - -The CHAIRMAN. Well, Agent Youngblood, thank you very much for coming -and testifying. We appreciate it. - -We will adjourn now. We will adjourn until 9 in the morning. - -(Whereupon, at 6:20 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -_Tuesday, March 10, 1964_ - -TESTIMONY OF ROBERT HILL JACKSON, ARNOLD LOUIS ROWLAND, JAMES RICHARD -WORRELL, JR., AND AMOS LEE EUINS - -The President's Commission met at 9:15 a.m. on March 10, 1964 at 200 -Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. - -Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman -Cooper and Representative Gerald R. Ford, members. - -Also present were Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel; David W. Belin, -assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Arlen Specter, -assistant counsel; and Edward L. Wright, Chairman, House of Delegates, -American Bar Association. - - -TESTIMONY OF ROBERT HILL JACKSON - -The CHAIRMAN. All right, gentlemen, are we ready? Would you raise your -right hand and be sworn, Mr. Jackson? Do you solemnly swear to tell the -truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. JACKSON. I do. - -The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please. - -Mr. Specter will conduct the examination. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you state---- - -The CHAIRMAN. First, I will read a very small short statement for the -record. The purpose of this day's hearing is to hear the testimony -of Arnold Louis Rowland, Amos Lee Euins, James Richard Worrell, and -Robert H. Jackson, who were in the vicinity of the assassination scene -on November 22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask these witnesses -for facts concerning their knowledge of the assassination of President -Kennedy. - -You have seen a copy of this, have you, Mr. Jackson? - -Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Very well, you may proceed, Mr. Specter. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? - -Mr. JACKSON. Robert Hill Jackson. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is your address, Mr. Jackson? - -Mr. JACKSON. 4030 Sperry. - -Mr. SPECTER. What city is that located in? - -Mr. JACKSON. Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long have you lived at that address, please? - -Mr. JACKSON. Since September of 1963. - -Mr. SPECTER. And of what State are you a native? - -Mr. JACKSON. I am a native of Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you lived in Dallas all your life? - -Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation at the present time? - -Mr. JACKSON. Staff photographer for the Dallas Times Herald. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been so employed? - -Mr. JACKSON. Since August of 1960. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline for us briefly---- - -The CHAIRMAN. 1950 or 1960? - -Mr. JACKSON. 1960. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline for us briefly your educational -background, please? - -Mr. JACKSON. I attended Highland Park High School and then Southern -Methodist University, where I studied for a business degree, and I did -not finish. I lack about 8 hours of finishing, of getting a degree. - -Mr. SPECTER. What year did you leave the university? - -Mr. JACKSON. 1957. - -Mr. SPECTER. How were you occupied between the time you left the -university and the time you started to work for the newspaper? - -Mr. JACKSON. I did some freelance photography work for a while, over -a year, until I went into the service on the 6 month's plan through -my National Guard unit, and I was a photographer there in the Army, -on-the-job training, and then after I was released from the Army I did -freelance work, I guess for about a year, until I got the job at the -Herald. - -Mr. SPECTER. How old are you at the present time? - -Mr. JACKSON. Twenty-nine. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your marital status? - -Mr. JACKSON. I am married. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have children? - -Mr. JACKSON. One child. One girl 15 months today. - -Mr. SPECTER. Going back to November 22, 1963, by whom were you employed -at that time? - -Mr. JACKSON. Dallas Times Herald. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was your assignment on that specific day? - -Mr. JACKSON. I was assigned to the motorcade to meet the President, -Love Field, and go to the Trade Mart and that was the extent of it, -cover the parade, I mean the motorcade and the speech. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you assigned to take pictures? - -Mr. JACKSON. To take pictures, yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you meet the President at Love Field? - -Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you take photographs for your newspaper at Love -Field? - -Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Describe briefly your activities at Love Field on the -morning of November 22, please. - -Mr. JACKSON. Well, we got there, I guess, 30, 40 minutes early. - -Mr. SPECTER. At about what time would that have been? - -Mr. JACKSON. I have to think to remember exactly what time, around 9, -I guess, 9 to 9:15, I believe. And I took pictures there. There were -other photographers from our paper there, our chief photographer. And -we just took shots of the crowd, and waited for the President to arrive. - -And then when he did arrive, our chief photographer left and went -directly to the Trade Mart and I got into the motorcade to ride to town. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know exactly which car you were in in the motorcade? - -Mr. JACKSON. We counted up, and it is either the seventh or eighth car. -We said eighth car from the President, from the lead car. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say we counted up, whom do you mean? - -Mr. JACKSON. The photographers in the car. As we left Love Field, we -were trying to figure how far back we were and we all decided it was -the eighth car. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you reconstruct that count for us which provided the -basis for your conclusion that you were in the seventh or eighth car. -For example, how many cars ahead of you was the President's car or the -Vice President's car, if you can recollect, please. - -Mr. JACKSON. Let me think a minute. I know there was a photographer's -car directly in front of us which I believe had some of the local -press. It was a convertible. Then in front were, I believe, two -or three cars carrying the press, the White House press, and then -President Johnson, I guess would be in the next car, and then the -President in the lead car, or the next car, and I believe there was -another car in the lead. - -Mr. SPECTER. So as you recollect the scene there was the lead and -immediately behind the lead car, whose car? - -Mr. JACKSON. The President's, I believe. - -Mr. SPECTER. And then immediately behind the President's whose car? - -Mr. JACKSON. The Vice President's. - -Mr. SPECTER. And immediately to the rear of the Vice President's car? - -Mr. JACKSON. Press vehicles and I was told it was the White House -press, two or three cars. - -Mr. SPECTER. And then there was one car filled with photographers? - -Mr. JACKSON. Directly in front of us. - -Mr. SPECTER. Between your car and the cars which you believe to have -been filled with White House newsmen? - -Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Wasn't there a Secret Service car directly behind the -President's car? - -Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Between it and the Vice President's car? - -Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir; that is right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Wasn't there a Secret Service car immediately behind the -Vice President's car, if you know? - -Mr. JACKSON. There must have been. That is what I can't recall is which -was which in there. I knew the White House press was in there but I -didn't know how many cars. I am sure there were Secret Service cars, -yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. As you were proceeding along in the motorcade, were you -within sight of the President's automobile? - -Mr. JACKSON. At times. When he was--when we could not get a clear view -of it because of the photographers in the car ahead of us who were -sitting up on the back of the seat just like we were, we did not have a -clear view of the car at all times. - -Mr. SPECTER. As you proceeded along approximately how far behind the -President's car were you, expressed either in cars, block lengths or in -any way that is convenient for you? - -Mr. JACKSON. Well, I would say approximately a block, average city -block, maybe closer at times. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Jackson, I show you a photograph which has been marked -heretofore as Commission Exhibit No. 347, and ask you to look at it for -a moment, and see if you can identify what that photograph depicts. - -Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir; this is the scene of the assassination, parade -route, Main and Houston, left on Elm. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, which street did the Presidential motorcade take -coming on to that scene which you have described as the assassination -scene. - -Mr. JACKSON. They were on Houston. - -Mr. SPECTER. And before Houston what street were they on? - -Mr. JACKSON. Main Street. - -Mr. SPECTER. What direction were they proceeding on Main Street? - -Mr. JACKSON. West. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now without reference to the photograph, will you tell us -what happened as the motorcade proceeded west on Main Street? - -Mr. JACKSON. Well, on Main, as we neared Houston Street everyone was -more or less in a relaxed state in our car, because we were near the -end of the route, I guess, nothing unusual happened on Main Street. - -The final block on Main, before we turned on Houston I was in the -process of unloading a camera and I was to toss it out of the car as we -turned right on Houston Street to one of our reporters. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had that been set up by prearrangement? - -Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. And that I did as we turned the corner, and -when--it was in an interval and as I threw it out the wind blew it, -caught it and blew it out into the street and our reporter chased -it out into the street and the photographers in our car, one of the -photographers, was a TV cameraman whom I do not recall his name, and -he was joking about the film being thrown out and he was shooting my -picture of throwing the film out. - -Mr. SPECTER. At this point could you tell us, to the best of your -recollection, precisely who was with you in the car at that time? - -Mr. JACKSON. Jim Underwood from KRLD-TV station, Tom Dillard, chief -photographer for the Dallas Morning News, and me, and then two newsreel -cameramen who I know by sight but I don't know their names. - -One is with WFAA which is the Dallas Morning News station, and I -believe the other was channel 11, I believe. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you position those people in the automobile for us -with respect to where each was sitting? - -(At this point Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. JACKSON. Tom Dillard and Jim Underwood were in the front seat with -the driver. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify who the driver was? - -Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. But he was a sixth individual separate and apart from the -five heretofore described? - -Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. And in the back seat were the two I know by -sight but I can't remember the names. - -And I was on the right side of the car. - -Mr. SPECTER. On the right side of which seat? - -Mr. JACKSON. Back seat, sitting up on the back of a seat. - -Mr. SPECTER. What kind of a car was it, sir? - -Mr. JACKSON. I believe it was a Chevrolet convertible. - -Mr. SPECTER. Top down? - -Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you carrying one camera or more than one camera? - -Mr. JACKSON. Two cameras. - -Mr. SPECTER. And was one camera loaded at the time you rounded the -corner of Main and Houston? - -Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir; and one was empty. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was it from the camera which was empty that you had taken -the roll of film which you have just described? - -Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. Will you now proceed to tell us what happened -as you rounded the corner of Main and Houston, please? - -Mr. JACKSON. Well, as our reporter chased the film out into the street, -we all looked back at him and were laughing, and it was approximately -that time that we heard the first shot, and we had already rounded the -corner, of course, when we heard the first shot. We were approximately -almost half a block on Houston Street. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you identify for me on Commission Exhibit 347, -precisely as possible, where your automobile was at the time you heard -the first shot? - -Mr. JACKSON. Approximately right here, I would say the midpoint of this -building. Approximately where we heard the first report. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you mark in a black "X" on 347 the spot where -your car was at the time you heard the first shot? - -Mr. JACKSON. Right here approximately. And as we heard the first shot, -I believe it was Tom Dillard from Dallas News who made some remark as -to that sounding like a firecracker, and it could have been somebody -else who said that. But someone else did speak up and make that comment -and before he actually finished the sentence we heard the other two -shots. Then we realized or we thought that it was gunfire, and then -we could not at that point see the President's car. We were still -moving slowly, and after the third shot the second two shots seemed -much closer together than the first shot, than they were to the first -shot. Then after the last shot, I guess all of us were just looking all -around and I just looked straight up ahead of me which would have been -looking at the School Book Depository and I noticed two Negro men in a -window straining to see directly above them, and my eyes followed right -on up to the window above them and I saw the rifle or what looked like -a rifle approximately half of the weapon, I guess I saw, and just as I -looked at it, it was drawn fairly slowly back into the building, and I -saw no one in the window with it. - -I didn't even see a form in the window. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next? - -Mr. JACKSON. I said "There is the gun," or it came from that window. I -tried to point it out. But by the time the other people looked up, of -course, it was gone, and about that time we were beginning to turn the -corner. - -Mr. SPECTER. Which corner were you beginning to turn? - -Mr. JACKSON. Houston onto Elm. - -Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a photograph marked as Commission Exhibit -No. 348 and ask you if you can identify what that depicts? - -Mr. JACKSON. This is the School Book Depository. This is the window the -two colored men were looking out of. This is the window where the rifle -was. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark the window where the rifle was with an "A" -and would you please mark the window where you have identified the men -below with a "B." - -(Witness marking.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Referring to your mark of "A," the photograph will show -that you have marked the window on the sixth floor with the mark being -placed on the window on the westerly half of the first double window. - -Mr. JACKSON. I am sorry. This window here on the very end was -the window where the weapon was. I am sorry, I just marked the -double--actually this is the rifle window right here. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you take the black pencil again and draw an -arrow--before you start to mark, hear the rest of the question--as -precisely as you can to the exact spot where you saw what you have -described as the rifle. - -(Witness marking.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Was the window you have just marked as being the spot from -which the rifle protruded, open when you looked up? - -Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your best recollection as to how far open it was -at that time? - -Mr. JACKSON. I would say that it was open like that window there, -halfway. - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a window on the sixth floor of the westernmost -portion of the building open halfway as you have described it. - -My last comment, as to the description of your last window, is only for -the purpose of what you have said in identifying a window to show how -far open the window was. - -Mr. JACKSON. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Which you heretofore marked with an arrow, correct? - -Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. - -Also in that window I could see boxes, corrugated boxes on the left -portion which would be my left, of the window, of the open window. - -Mr. SPECTER. How many boxes could you see? - -Mr. JACKSON. I couldn't tell. It just seemed like a stack of boxes. - -Mr. SPECTER. How high were the boxes stacked? - -Mr. JACKSON. Maybe two is all I saw. They were stacked, I believe they -were as high as the window was open, halfway up the window. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your best recollection of the size of those boxes -which you say you saw? - -Mr. JACKSON. Maybe like that, that wide. - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating approximately 3 feet wide? - -Mr. JACKSON. Three feet or a little less maybe. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the height of those boxes? - -Mr. JACKSON. I would say high enough to hide a man. Let's say, between -5 and 6 feet high, I would say to the best of my recollection. From the -angle I was looking at it, I would say they were 5 feet high at least. - -Mr. SPECTER. That is each box would be 5 feet high? - -Mr. JACKSON. No; the stack, the stacked boxes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could you see how many boxes were stacked up to reach a -total height of 5 to 6 feet? - -Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you able to see anyone in front of those boxes? - -Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Whether or not you could identify anyone, could you see -even the form or outline of the man? - -Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. It looked to me like the man was over to the side -of the window because the rifle was at quite an angle to me. - -Mr. SPECTER. Which side of the window? - -Mr. JACKSON. Well, from the position of the rifle it would be the -corner of the building, the east. It would be to the right of the -window from my view. - -Mr. SPECTER. Which direction was the rifle pointing? - -Mr. JACKSON. West. To my left. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was it pointing in a straight westerly direction or was it -pointing at an angle from the building. - -Mr. JACKSON. It was at an angle from the building. I am not--well, -let's see--well, it wouldn't be directly west. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was the general line of direction of the pointing of -the rifle? - -Mr. JACKSON. Well, directly down the street. - -Mr. SPECTER. And by down the street you are pointing out what street? - -Mr. JACKSON. Down Elm Street toward the triple, toward the underpass. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was it pointed as you have indicated at the angle which -Elm Street traverses heading toward the triple underpass? - -Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. And the rifle was pointing slightly down. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you at any time in this sequence observe the -President's automobile? - -Mr. JACKSON. As we turned the corner--or we stopped where the -intersection, actually we stopped before we began to turn left onto Elm -Street, or rather I would say we hesitated and we were all looking down -towards the President's car and I could see two cars going under the -underpass. I barely saw the President's car. I would say just the rear -end of it as it disappeared under the underpass. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was that the only time you saw the President's car from -the time you made a right-hand turn off of Main Street onto Houston -Street? - -Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the time span between the -first shot you heard and the last shot you heard? - -Mr. JACKSON. I would say 5 to 8 seconds. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us a breakdown between the shots which you -heard as to how many seconds elapsed between each one? - -Mr. JACKSON. I would say to me it seemed like 3 or 4 seconds between -the first and the second, and between the second and third, well, I -guess 2 seconds, they were very close together. It could have been more -time between the first and second. I really can't be sure. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure you heard three shots? - -Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you mark on the overhead shot, which is Exhibit -347, with a "Y" as precisely as you can the position of your automobile -at the time you heard the second shot? - -Mr. JACKSON. With a "Y"? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, please. - -(Witness marking.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you now mark on the same exhibit the precise -position of your car as closely as you can recollect it when you heard -the third shot with a letter "Z"? - -(Witness marking.) - -Mr. SPECTER. When, in relation to the timing of the shots, which -you have described, did you first look toward the Texas School Book -Depository Building? - -Mr. JACKSON. It couldn't have been more than 3 seconds before I looked -at that window. - -Mr. SPECTER. Three seconds from what point in time? - -Mr. JACKSON. From the last shot. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you say from the last shot? - -Mr. JACKSON. From the last shot, yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your best recollection or estimate of the speed -of your automobile as you were proceeding in a generally northerly -direction on Houston Street at the time of the shooting? - -Mr. JACKSON. I would say not over 15 miles an hour. - -Mr. SPECTER. What would your best estimate be as to the minimum speed? - -Mr. JACKSON. Ten, I would say. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where, in the window were the two Negro men, whom you have -described? - -Mr. JACKSON. Well, there was one in each of those double windows. - -Mr. SPECTER. On which floor was that? - -Mr. JACKSON. The fifth floor. - -Mr. SPECTER. And will you place an arrow where you saw each of those -men, please? - -Mr. JACKSON. Each one of them? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. - -(Witness marking.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any reaction from either or both of those -two men when you saw them? - -Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. Just looking up. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could you see their faces reasonably clearly to observe -that they were looking up. - -Mr. JACKSON. I could tell they were looking up because they were -leaning way out just like that. I couldn't see their faces very well at -all. - -Mr. SPECTER. The witness has leaned forward and turned his head to -the right and looking upward as he sits in the witness chair, may the -record show. - -Representative FORD. Did they both turn the same way as you have -indicated in answer to Mr. Specter's question? - -Mr. JACKSON. To the best of my recollection one man looked up to his -right and the other man looked up like this to his left, one in each -window. - -Representative FORD. Can you identify which to his right and which to -his left? - -Mr. JACKSON. I believe the one on the right window, my right, was -looking to his right. The one on the west window, the one to my left -was looking to his left. I believe I am right on that but I may not -be because I just looked at them for a fraction of a second, I just -followed them up. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the distance which separated -you from those two men at the time you observed them? - -Mr. JACKSON. I am not very good at distances. I was about the middle of -the block, I guess. I would say around a hundred yards, I guess. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see those two men before or after you observed the -rifle? - -Mr. JACKSON. Before. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of how many inches of the rifle -that you observed? - -Mr. JACKSON. I saw the barrel and about half--well, I did not see a -telescopic sight, but I did see part of the stock, so I guess maybe 8 -or 10 inches of the stock maybe. I did see part of the stock, I did not -see the sight. - -Mr. SPECTER. Eight or ten inches of the stock, and how much of the -barrel would you estimate? - -Mr. JACKSON. I guess possibly a foot. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anyone's hands on the rifle? - -Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, as best as you can recollect it, what exact words did -you state at or about the time you made the observation of the rifle, -if any? - -Mr. JACKSON. I said, "There is the gun" and somebody said "Where?" And -I said, "It came from that window" and I pointed to that window. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect who it was who said "Where?" - -Mr. JACKSON. Somebody in the car, I don't recall who. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did anybody else in the car say anything else at that time? - -Mr. JACKSON. Nothing that I could remember. I am sure they were all -talking. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you say anything else at about that time? - -Mr. JACKSON. If I did, I don't remember. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did anyone in the automobile state that he, too, had seen -the rifle from the window? - -Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a conversation with all of the men in the car -immediately after the incident? - -Mr. JACKSON. No, sir; because as, I guess after the third shot, I do -recall the driver speeding up, and we hesitated at the corner before -turning left, and three of the occupants of the car got out, jumped out. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who were those three? - -Mr. JACKSON. That was Underwood, Jim Underwood, Tom Dillard and one of -the TV cameramen. The WHAA channel 8 cameraman and I were left in the -back seat. We couldn't make up our minds. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there an individual in the car by the name of Mr. -Couch, to your knowledge? - -Mr. JACKSON. Couch? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JACKSON. I don't know him. - -Mr. SPECTER. Malcolm Couch? - -Mr. JACKSON. The name is familiar. I might state what I did see as we -did hesitate there, at the corner, I don't recall whether this was -before the other three fellows got out of the car or not, I believe we -were still all in the car, as we observed these other things, but in -a fleeting glance as I saw the cars go under the underpass, I did see -people running. I saw a motorcycle policeman jump off his motorcycle, -in fact, he just hit the curb and just let it fall, and he went down on -his knees on the grass, on the lawn of that parkway. - -I did see a family covering up their child, and I just saw a state of -confusion, people running, and that is about all I saw at that point of -the scene. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Jackson, at the time you heard the first shot, did you -have any reaction or impression from the sound itself as to the source -of the shot, point of origin? - -Mr. JACKSON. No, sir; I didn't. It did sound like it came from ahead of -us or from that general vicinity but I could not tell whether it was -high up or on the ground. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say that general vicinity, what vicinity did you -mean? - -Mr. JACKSON. We were sure it came from ahead of us which would be in a -northerly direction, northwesterly direction. It did sound as though it -came from somewhere around the head of the motorcade. - -Mr. SPECTER. From the second shot, did you have any reaction or -impression as to the source of this shot? - -Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. Through all three shots, I could just tell that -it was ahead of me and not behind me, that is it. - -Mr. SPECTER. And the same impression then prevailed through the third -shot as well. - -Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. To me it never sounded like it was high or low. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you had occasion since this incident to relate the -factual sequences, your observations and what you heard? Have you had -occasion to tell anybody about what you saw and heard as you have -described it to us? - -Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Has there been any variation in your recollection or -impressions about your observations on these occasions? - -Mr. JACKSON. Not to my knowledge. The other times were not as thorough -as this. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, those are all of the questions which I -have, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, any questions you would like to ask Mr. -Jackson? - -Representative FORD. Mr. Jackson, when and by whom were you questioned -or interrogated subsequent to the event? I was thinking of the FBI, the -Secret Service, or any investigative organization. - -Mr. JACKSON. You say when, how soon afterwards? - -Representative FORD. Right. - -Mr. JACKSON. I would say within 2 days afterwards, let's see, the next -day was the first day. - -Representative FORD. Saturday November 23? - -Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir; I believe it was the first time. - -Representative FORD. Who, by name, if you can, but if not by what -organization? - -Mr. JACKSON. The FBI called me, I believe it was Friday evening, and I -believe I did give some information on the phone Friday night. - -Representative FORD. Was that followed up---- - -Mr. JACKSON. And they came and saw me in the office, I believe on -Saturday. - -Representative FORD. How did they happen to contact you? Had you made a -statement publicly before? - -Mr. JACKSON. Our newspaper ran an article by me or I got a byline on it -stating this in general which I have stated today. - -Representative FORD. Following this initial contact have you made -subsequent statements to various organizations or any organization? - -Mr. JACKSON. I made statements to the Secret Service also. Other than -that there was none other. - -Representative FORD. How good are your eyes, do you wear glasses? - -Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. - -Representative FORD. Have you had an eye examination recently or when -was the last examination? - -Mr. JACKSON. I had a physical when I reenlisted in the National Guard, -let's see, that was, I believe, about a year and a half ago, I had that -physical and I had 20-20 vision. - -Representative FORD. 20-20 vision? - -Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. You just indicated you were in the Texas National -Guard? - -Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. How long have you been in the Texas National Guard? - -Mr. JACKSON. I joined in October 1958. - -Representative FORD. And you have been in continuously since? - -Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. So you are familiar with guns in general? - -Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. So you would readily identify, if you saw it, a -rifle? - -Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Did any others in the automobile in which you were -riding recollect as far as you know, hearing you say "There is the gun." - -Mr. JACKSON. I don't know whether they would remember it or not. - -Representative FORD. Have you ever talked with any others in the car? - -Mr. JACKSON. I have never sat down and talked with them about the -events, no, sir. I have seen them, of course, several times but I have -never discussed it with them. - -Representative FORD. You never discussed what you said or what they -said? - -Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. I guess the one man I have discussed it more -with than anybody else was Tom Dillard, the chief photographer for the -Dallas News, and we recalled to each other the scene but we really -never went into any detail or as to what each one of us said either. - -Representative FORD. At the time you were in the car, after it had -turned from Main onto Houston, was there any noise from the crowd on -either side of the street, Houston Street? - -Mr. JACKSON. There was very little crowd on Houston, as I recall. On -Houston itself. The crowd--I mean as compared to Main Street, to the -other end of town and down through Main. The crowd thinned out as we -got down near the intersection of Main and Houston, and there were a -lot less people but I couldn't make an estimate of how many. - -Representative FORD. There was no noise from the crowd at that point? - -Mr. JACKSON. No, sir; no noise, I would say. - -Representative FORD. At the time you heard the first shot, what was -your position in the car? Were you standing or sitting? - -Mr. JACKSON. I was sitting on the back of the seat, on the right-hand -side of the back seat, sitting up. - -Representative FORD. Did you have your camera in your hand? - -Mr. JACKSON. Yes; I had one camera around my neck and the camera I -had just emptied, it was in my lap. I had thrown my film out to this -reporter over the side of the car as we rounded the corner and I still -had the camera lying in my lap, and the other one was around my neck. - -Representative FORD. Was this the position you were in at the time you -heard the first shot? - -Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. After the third shot and as the car hesitated, -did you see any law enforcement officials move in any concentrated or -concerted direction? - -Mr. JACKSON. I saw at least one, there may have been more, run up the -School Depository steps, toward the door. That is one of the things I -saw in this confusion. - -Representative FORD. This was separate from the policeman on the -motorcycle? - -Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. Yes. I should have said that a while ago. There -was a policeman who moved toward the door of the Depository. But to my -best knowledge there was no concentrated movement toward any one spot. -It looked like general confusion to me, and of course, I stayed in the -car. As we did turn the corner our driver speeded up and we went by the -scene pretty fast and I do recall this Negro family covering up their -child on the grass, and I, as we passed them, they were just getting up -and he had the child in his arms and the child looked limp and I didn't -know whether the child was shot or not. But then we were moving fast -and went on under the underpass. - -Representative FORD. That is all, Mr. Chairman. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Wright, do you have any questions? - -Mr. WRIGHT. No, Mr. Chief Justice, I passed a question on. - -Mr. SPECTER. I have just one additional question, and that is whether -Mr. Jackson had any occasion to see anybody leave the scene of the -Texas School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. That is all, Your Honor. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Jackson, thank you very much for coming. - -Mr. JACKSON. Thank you. - -The CHAIRMAN. We appreciate it. - -Who is next? - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Rowland. - -The CHAIRMAN. Would you raise your right hand and be sworn, please. - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony given before this Commission will -be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you -God? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Specter will conduct the examination. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please, but -before you do, Mr. Chief Justice, is it your practice to read that -statement to the witness? - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes. I will read a short statement to you for the purpose -of the hearing. - -The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Arnold Louis -Rowland, Amos Lee Euins, James Richard Worrell, and Robert H. Jackson, -who were in the vicinity of the assassination scene on November -22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask these witnesses for facts -concerning their knowledge of the assassination of President Kennedy. - -A copy of that statement was furnished to you, was it not? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No. - -The CHAIRMAN. You didn't see it. You have one before you. Very well. - - -TESTIMONY OF ARNOLD LOUIS ROWLAND - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you please state your full name for the record, Mr. -Rowland? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Arnold Louis Rowland. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your address? - -Mr. ROWLAND. 1131 Aphinney. - -Mr. SPECTER. And in what city do you reside? - -Mr. ROWLAND. This is Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long have you resided in Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. ROWLAND. About 9 months at present. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you live before coming to Dallas? - -Mr. ROWLAND. In Salem, Oreg. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in Salem, Oreg. - -Mr. ROWLAND. About 3 months. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you live before moving to Salem, Oreg. - -Mr. ROWLAND. Dallas. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in Dallas at that time? - -Mr. ROWLAND. About 4 years. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where were you born? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Corpus Christi, Tex. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you lived in Texas most of your life? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Most of my life. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your age at the present time, Mr. Rowland? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Eighteen. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is your exact date of birth, please? - -Mr. ROWLAND. April 29, 1945. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your marital status. - -Mr. ROWLAND. Married. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you any children? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been married? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Ten months. - -Mr. SPECTER. What education have you had, sir? - -Mr. ROWLAND. High school. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you attending high school at the present time? - -Mr. ROWLAND. I have finished, and fixing to go to college. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you graduate from high school? - -Mr. ROWLAND. June 1963. - -Mr. SPECTER. How have you been occupied or employed since June of 1963? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Worked in Oregon at three different jobs. Exchange Lumber -Co. as a shipping clerk, Meier Frank Co. as a clothes salesman, and -part time at West Foods. The business was mushroom processing. That was -during the summer. - -Upon my return to Dallas, I worked part time, while doing some -postgraduate work, at the Pizza Inn. At present I am working with the -P. F. Collier Co. - -Mr. SPECTER. What sort of work are you doing with P. F. Collier? - -Mr. ROWLAND. That is promotional advertising. - -Mr. SPECTER. What college are you attending, if any, at the present -time? - -Mr. ROWLAND. None at the present. - -Mr. SPECTER. What postgraduate work had you been doing that you just -mentioned? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Studies in math and science. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where were you studying these courses? - -Mr. ROWLAND. This was a high school in Dallas as advanced courses. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you been accepted in any college? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; several. Texas A. & M., Rice, SMU, Arlington. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have plans to attend one of those colleges? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Which one do you plan to enter? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Preferably Rice. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an entry date set? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No; I am trying for a scholarship for it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you been in the military service? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No; I haven't. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is the general condition of your health. - -Mr. ROWLAND. Good. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is the condition of your eyesight? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Very good. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you wear glasses at any time? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. When, most recently, have you had an eye test, if at all? - -Mr. ROWLAND. About 7 months ago. - -Mr. SPECTER. And you know the results of that test? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Very good vision. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what classification the doctor placed on it? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No; I don't remember it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect if it was 20-20? - -Mr. ROWLAND. He said it was much better than that. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what doctor examined your eyes? - -Mr. ROWLAND. This was the firm of doctors Finn and Finn. - -Mr. SPECTER. F-i-n-n and F-i-n-n? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where are they located? - -Mr. ROWLAND. The Fidelity Union Life Building in Dallas. - -Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long ago was that examination? - -Mr. ROWLAND. About 6 months. - -Mr. SPECTER. Going to the day of November 22, 1963, how were you -occupied at that time, Mr. Rowland? - -Mr. ROWLAND. I was attending classes in school part of the day, working -part time as a pizzamaker in Pizza Inn. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had you regularly scheduled classes on the morning of -November 22, 1963? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. I had classes up until 11. I just had two classes on -Friday. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what school were you attending at that time? - -Mr. ROWLAND. W. H. Adamson High. - -Mr. SPECTER. How far is that from the intersection of Houston and Elm -Streets in Dallas, approximately? - -Mr. ROWLAND. It must have been about a mile and a half. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe for the Commission what you did on that -morning, in a general way, up until approximately noon time? - -Mr. ROWLAND. I went to my classes. My wife got out of school early. We -went to town. I had to go to work at 4, so we were going downtown to do -some shopping. We went early so we could see the President's motorcade. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive in town? - -Mr. ROWLAND. We rode a bus from the school. We got to town -approximately a quarter to 12. - -Mr. SPECTER. What school was your wife attending at that time? - -Mr. ROWLAND. The same: Adamson. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time did her classes end? - -Mr. ROWLAND. She got out at 11 also. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do from the time you arrived in town at -approximately a quarter of 12 for the next 15 minutes? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Trying to find a good vantage point. We walked about five -or six blocks. - -Mr. SPECTER. From where did you walk? - -Mr. ROWLAND. We got off at the junction, at the intersection of Main -and Houston, walked up toward Ervay, about four blocks, I would say -up to Akard. We walked from Houston to Akard on Main, and then we -walked back down Commerce and then over to the sheriffs or the county -courthouse, there was a lesser crowd there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is that the reason you selected the spot you ultimately -picked to watch the parade? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, there was no one in front of us, no one around that -area. - -Mr. SPECTER. I am going to show you a photograph, Mr. Rowland, which -has already been identified as Commission Exhibit No. 347 and first ask -you if you can identify what scene this represents. - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I can. - -Mr. SPECTER. What scene is that? - -Mr. ROWLAND. This is the triple underpass, this is the scene where the -President was assassinated. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is this plaza called in Dallas? - -Mr. ROWLAND. I don't know exactly. It is just known as the triple -underpass. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is it known as Dealey Plaza to your knowledge? - -Mr. ROWLAND. I have never heard it called that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you point with your finger for me at the spot where -you were standing as best you can recollect it? - -Mr. ROWLAND. We were about in this area on this sidewalk of this -building. I say approximately two-thirds of the distance between here -and here in this direction. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. - -I have a substitute photograph for you to mark. I am now showing you -an identical scene on a photograph which has been heretofore marked as -Commission Exhibit No. 354. Will you mark with an arrow as closely as -possible to the point where you were standing? - -Mr. ROWLAND. There is an elevator shaft below this second window on -that building that comes through a sidewalk. I was about 5 feet to the -left of it, about the third window or right here in this area. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark that a little more heavily, please? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -(Witness marking.) - -Mr. SPECTER. What time were you so positioned? - -Mr. ROWLAND. We got there about 5 after 12. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did your position move at any time during the course of -the next half hour? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. We did move to this corner, there were too many -people on this corner. - -Mr. SPECTER. You are indicating back to the corner of Houston and Main? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. Houston and Main there were too many crowds so we -came back to this street here, Commerce is that right; no, Elm and -Main. We came back to Elm and Main and figured it wouldn't be a very -good vantage point because of the crowd there so we went back to where -we were. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where were you standing at the time the President's -motorcade passed by you? - -Mr. ROWLAND. At that position. - -(Witness marking.) - -Mr. SPECTER. The position you have marked with a "V," inverted "V." - -Will you mark with the letter "A" the point to which you had moved when -you described it as being at Commerce which you corrected to Elm and -Houston. - -Mr. ROWLAND. It was this corner. - -(Witness marking.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Approximately what time did you move to the position you -have marked "A"? - -Mr. ROWLAND. About 10 after 12. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long did you stay at position "A"? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Momentarily, just long enough to look, maybe a minute. - -Mr. SPECTER. To look at what? - -Mr. ROWLAND. To look at the position itself. There was too much of a -crowd in that area. When the President would come by they would be -pushing or rushing in that area and it would be too crowded for us. - -Mr. SPECTER. At that point you did what? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Then we went back to where we were. - -Mr. SPECTER. To position "V"? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, and we stayed there for a minute or so, walked to the -corner of Main and Houston. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mark Main and Houston with the letter "B," if you would, -where you moved next. - -(Witness marking.) - -Mr. ROWLAND. Stayed there momentarily, less than a minute. There was -quite a crowd there and we went back to where we were, our original -position. - -Mr. SPECTER. To position "V"? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time would you say you got back to your position "V"? - -Mr. ROWLAND. We got back there 14 after, I noticed the time on my -watch, and the Hertz time clock I noticed was about a minute later. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where was the Hertz time clock located? - -Mr. ROWLAND. That was on top of the school depository building. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was your watch synchronized with the Hertz up on top. - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I always set it by the same clock whenever I pass it. -I pass it coming into town and I set my watch at that time. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you observe at any time the building which is -depicted in Commission Exhibit No. 348? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. We were looking around it, my wife and I, amongst the -crowd, the different areas, making note of the policemen on top of the -underpass itself, in that area, and the security precautions that were -being taken. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chairman, I would like to show the witness the same -photograph, but a different picture on an exhibit marked Commission -Exhibit No. 356. - -Mr. Rowland, I show you a picture marked Commission Exhibit No. 356 and -ask you if you can identify what that represents? - -Mr. ROWLAND. That is Houston, Elm running in front of this building. -This is the school book depository building. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you familiar with that building prior to November 22, -1963? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I have been in there on occasion. - -Mr. SPECTER. You have been in the building? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, to purchase books. - -Mr. SPECTER. When were you in the building most recently prior to -November 22, 1963? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Within the first week of November. This was to buy a -physics notebook. - -Mr. SPECTER. What part of the building were you in at that time? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Just inside the door of the main lobby. - -Mr. SPECTER. On the first floor? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had you ever had occasion at any time to be on any floor -other than the first floor? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. While you were standing on Houston Street in the various -positions which you have described, did you have occasion at any time -to observe the Texas School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. When we returned to position "V" we stayed there, -we began looking around. My wife and I were discussing the security -precautions that were taken in view of the event when Mr. Stevenson was -there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Before you go on, let me ask you at which time was this on -your return to position "V"? - -Mr. ROWLAND. This was 12:15. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right; proceed to tell us what you saw and heard at -about that time? - -Mr. ROWLAND. We were discussing, as I stated, the different security -precautions, I mean it was a very important person who was coming -and we were aware of the policemen around everywhere, and especially -in positions where they would be able to watch crowds. We talked -momentarily of the incidents with Mr. Stevenson, and the one before -that with Mr. Johnson, and this being in mind we were more or less -security conscious. We looked and at that time I noticed on the sixth -floor of the building that there was a man back from the window, not -hanging out the window. - -He was standing and holding a rifle. This appeared to me to be a fairly -high-powered rifle because of the scope and the relative proportion of -the scope to the rifle, you can tell about what type of rifle it is. -You can tell it isn't a .22, you know, and we thought momentarily that -maybe we should tell someone but then the thought came to us that it is -a security agent. - -We had seen in the movies before where they have security men up in -windows and places like that with rifles to watch the crowds, and we -brushed it aside as that, at that time, and thought nothing else about -it until after the event happened. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, by referring to the photograph on this Commission -Exhibit No. 356, will you point to the window where you observed this -man? - -Mr. ROWLAND. This was very odd. There were--this picture was not taken -immediately after that, I don't think, because there were several -windows, there are pairs of windows, and there were several pairs where -both windows were open fully and in each pair there was one or more -persons hanging out the window. - -Yet this was on the west corner of the building, the sixth floor, the -first floor--second floor down from the top, the first was the arched, -the larger windows, not the arch, but the larger windows, and this was -the only pair of windows where both windows were completely open and no -one was hanging out the windows, or next to the window. - -It was this pair of windows here at that time. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. - -Will you mark that pair of windows with a circle? - -(Witness marking.) - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your best recollection as to how far each of those -windows were open? - -Mr. ROWLAND. To the fullest extent that they could be opened. - -Mr. SPECTER. What extent would that be? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Being as I looked half frame windows, that would be -halfway of the entire length of the window. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is that the approximate status of those windows depicted -here in Exhibit 356? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. In which of those double windows did you see the man and -rifle? - -Mr. ROWLAND. It was through the window to my right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Draw an arrow right into that window with the same black -pencil please. - -(Witness marking.) - -Mr. SPECTER. How much, if any, or all of that rifle could you see? - -Mr. ROWLAND. All of it. - -Mr. SPECTER. You could see from the base of the stock down to the tip -of the end of the rifle? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. The barrel of the rifle? - -The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, will you excuse me for just a few -minutes to run across the street to my office. You conduct during my -absence. - -Representative FORD. Will you proceed, Mr. Specter? - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the distance between where -you were standing and the man holding the rifle whom you have just -described? - -(The Chief Justice left the hearing room.) - -Mr. ROWLAND. 150 feet approximately, very possibly more. I don't know -for sure. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you very good at judging distances of that sort? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Fairly good. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you had any experience or practice at judging such -distances? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. Even in using the method in physics or, you know, -elementary physics of looking at a position in two different views, you -can tell its distance. I did that quite frequently. And the best I can -recollect it was within 150 to 175 feet. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the rifle with any more particularity -than you already have? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No. In proportion to the scope it appeared to me to be a -.30-odd size 6, a deer rifle with a fairly large or powerful scope. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say, .30-odd-6, exactly what did you mean by that? - -Mr. ROWLAND. That is a rifle that is used quite frequently for deer -hunting. It is an import. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you own any rifles? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No; my stepfather does. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever gone hunting deer with such a rifle? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I have. - -Mr. SPECTER. And is that a .30-odd-6 rifle that you have hunted deer -with? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is that a popular size of rifle in the Dallas, Tex., area? - -Mr. ROWLAND. I don't know about Dallas. I do know in Oregon it is one -of the most popular for deer hunting. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was the rifle which you observed similar to, or perhaps -identical with, .30-odd rifles which you have seen before? - -Mr. ROWLAND. The best I could tell it was of that size. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you seen such .30-odd rifles before at close range -which had telescopic sights? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; one my stepfather has has a very powerful scope on it. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did this rifle appear similar to the one your -stepfather owned? - -Mr. ROWLAND. From my distance, I would say very similar or of similar -manufacture. - -Mr. SPECTER. In what manner was the rifle being held by the man whom -you observed? - -Mr. ROWLAND. The way he was standing it would have been in a position -such as port arms in military terms. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say port arms you have positioned your left hand -with the left elbow of your hand being about level with your shoulder -and your right hand---- - -Mr. ROWLAND. Not quite level with my shoulder, and the right hand being -lower on the trigger of the stock. - -Mr. SPECTER. So the waist of the imaginary rifle you would be holding -would cross your body at about a 45-degree angle. - -Mr. ROWLAND. That is correct. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long was the rifle held in that position? - -Mr. ROWLAND. During the entire time that I saw him there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him hold it in any other position? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No, I didn't. - -Mr. SPECTER. For example, was he standing at any time in a parade-rest -position? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No; not to my knowledge. - -Mr. SPECTER. Describe, as best you can, the appearance of the -individual whom you saw? - -Mr. ROWLAND. He was rather slender in proportion to his size. I -couldn't tell for sure whether he was tall and maybe, you know heavy, -say 200 pounds, but tall whether he would be and slender or whether he -was medium and slender, but in proportion to his size his build was -slender. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could you give us an estimate on his height? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No; I couldn't. That is why I said I can't state what -height he would be. He was just slender in build in proportion with his -width. This is something I find myself doing all the time, comparing -things in perspective. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was he a white man or a Negro or what? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Seemed, well, I can't state definitely from my position -because it was more or less not fully light or bright in the room. He -appeared to be fair complexioned, not fair, but light complexioned, but -dark hair. - -Mr. SPECTER. What race was he then? - -Mr. ROWLAND. I would say either a light Latin or a Caucasian. - -Mr. SPECTER. And were you able to observe any characteristics of his -hair? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No; except that it was dark, probably black. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to observe whether he had a full head of -hair or any characteristic as to quantity of hair? - -Mr. ROWLAND. It didn't appear as if he had a receding hairline but I -know he didn't have it hanging on his shoulders. Probably a close cut -from--you know it appeared to me it was either well-combed or close cut. - -Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you observe as to the clothes he -was wearing? - -Mr. ROWLAND. He had on a light shirt, a very light-colored shirt, white -or a light blue or a color such as that. This was open at the collar. -I think it was unbuttoned about halfway, and then he had a regular -T-shirt, a polo shirt under this, at least this is what it appeared to -be. He had on dark slacks or blue jeans, I couldn't tell from that. I -didn't see but a small portion. - -Mr. SPECTER. You say you only saw a small portion of what? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Of his pants from his waist down. - -Mr. SPECTER. Which half of the window was open, the bottom half or the -top half? - -Mr. ROWLAND. It was the bottom half. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how much, if any, of his body was obscured by the -window frame from that point down to the floor? - -Mr. ROWLAND. From where I was standing I could see from his head to -about 6 inches below his waist, below his belt. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could you see as far as his knees? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is your best recollection as to how close to the -window he was standing? - -Mr. ROWLAND. He wasn't next to the window, but he wasn't very far back. -I would say 3 to 5 feet back from the window. - -Mr. SPECTER. How much of the rifle was separated from your line of -vision by the window? - -Mr. ROWLAND. The entire rifle was in my view. - -Mr. SPECTER. In the open part of the window? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how much of his body, if any, was in the open view -where there was no window between your eyes and the object of his body? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Approximately two-thirds of his body just below his waist. - -Mr. SPECTER. Up to what point? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Mid point between the waist and the knees, this is again -in my proportion to his height that I make that judgment. - -Mr. SPECTER. So from the waist, some point between his knees and his -waist, you started to see him clear in the window? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And from that point how far up his body were you able to -see without any obstruction of a window between you and him? - -Mr. ROWLAND. To the top of his head. There was some space on top of -that where I could see the wall behind him. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the space between the top of -his head and the open window at the perspective you were observing? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Two and a half, three feet, something on that--that is -something very hard to ascertain. That would just be an estimation on -my part. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else you observed about his appearance -or his clothing or the rifle which you haven't already told us about? - -Representative FORD. Was he facing toward you directly? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Representative FORD. In other words, did you get a full view of his -face and his chest and the front of him? - -Mr. ROWLAND. He appeared to me as though he were looking out the window -and watching the crowd in particular. - -Representative FORD. Excuse me, go ahead. - -Mr. ROWLAND. That is all right. - -Representative FORD. Was he looking toward the corner of Houston and -Main? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No; I would say he was looking in the area or the general -vicinity of where I was. - -Representative FORD. And you were on the sidewalk on Houston in front -of the building that you have indicated? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. Now, I can't--here again I wasn't close enough to -see his eyes but from the position of his head he was looking in that -general area. It could have been that maybe he was--his eyes were a -little bit off perspective and he was watching that corner, I don't -know. - -Representative FORD. In what position did you say his hands were on the -rifle? - -Mr. ROWLAND. One hand was at what is called the gun stock of the rifle, -just above the trigger, it was around the rifle. The other was at the -other end of the rifle about 4 inches below the end of the stock. - -Representative FORD. Was the rifle held above his waist? - -Mr. ROWLAND. The majority of it was, just a small portion of butt below -his waist. - -Representative FORD. The butt or the end of the rifle, the barrel end? - -Mr. ROWLAND. The butt, the stock end, was below his waist. The barrel -being pointed in the air toward the ceiling or the wall next to him. - -Representative FORD. I see. The stock was down and the barrel was up. - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to form any opinion as to the age of that -man? - -Mr. ROWLAND. This is again just my estimation. He was--I think I -remember telling my wife that he appeared in his early thirties. This -could be obscured because of the distance, I mean. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to form any opinion as to the weight of -the man in addition to the line of proportion which you have already -described? - -Mr. ROWLAND. I would say about 140 to 150 pounds. - -Representative FORD. When did you tell your wife you thought he was in -his thirties? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Right after I noticed the man, I brought him to my wife's -attention, and she was looking at something else at that time, we -looked at that, and when we both looked back she wanted to see also, -and he was gone from our vision. - -Representative FORD. So she never saw him? - -Mr. ROWLAND. My wife never saw him. - -Representative FORD. Did you say at that time how old he was or how old -you thought he was? - -Mr. ROWLAND. I think I remarked to my wife that he appeared in his -thirties, early thirties. - -Mr. SPECTER. When, after you first observed him did you have a -conversation about him with your wife? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Right afterwards. There was--just before I observed him -there was a police motorcycle parked just on the street, not in front -of us, just a little past us, and the radio was on it giving the -details of the motorcade, where it was positioned, and right after the -time I noticed him and when my wife was pointing this other thing to -me, I don't remember what that was, the dispatcher came on and gave the -position of the motorcade as being on Cedar Springs. This would be in -the area of Turtle Creek, down in that area. - -I can't remember the street's name but I know where it is at. And this -was the position of the motorcade and it was about 15 or 16 after 12. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, did you tell your wife about the presence of this -man immediately after you saw him? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what was the quality or condition of her eyes? - -Mr. ROWLAND. She has nearsightedness and has to wear glasses. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was she wearing glasses at the time? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No, she wasn't. - -Mr. SPECTER. Based on your knowledge of her eyesight, would it have -been possible for her to have seen him considering your relative -positions? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Had he still been there she would have been able to -acknowledge the figure with no description. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long did you see him there in total point of time? - -Mr. ROWLAND. It was all relatively brief, short time, 15 seconds, maybe -20. I was looking at the building, looking at the people hanging out of -the building, I noticed him, my eye contact was at that position for 15 -to 20 seconds. This is all relatively very short length of time. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now---- - -Mr. ROWLAND. But a lot can happen in that much time. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you saw him, you told her about him, and then did she -look in the direction of the man? - -Mr. ROWLAND. After she pointed something else out to me she looked in -that direction. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you then look back toward the direction of, to the -window where you had seen him? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I even pointed to it with my wife. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you look back at the same time she looked back? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And when you looked back what, if anything, did you -observe in the window? - -Mr. ROWLAND. There was nothing there then. - -Mr. SPECTER. Following that did you and she have any additional -conversation about this man in the window? - -Mr. ROWLAND. We talked about it momentarily, just for a few seconds -that it was of most likelihood a security man, had a very good vantage -point where he could watch the crowds, talked about the rifle, it -looked like a very high-powered rifle. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you mention that to your wife? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you described as fully as you can everything you -discussed with your wife at that juncture? - -Mr. ROWLAND. I think so. - -Representative FORD. Was there anybody else standing close to you as -you had this conversation with your wife? - -Mr. ROWLAND. There was a policeman about as far as me to the flag. - -Representative FORD. That is about how many feet, would you say? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Twelve, thirteen feet. - -Representative FORD. There was no one between you and the policeman in -that line of vision? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No. - -Then there were three or four colored men just behind the elevator, and -a couple on the elevator that had come up through the sidewalk. This -was a distance of--this was on the opposite side of us about 15 feet, -just a little further than the officer. - -Representative FORD. There was no one closer to you and your wife than -10 to 15 feet? - -Mr. ROWLAND. That is correct. That is one of the main reasons we -selected that spot. - -Representative FORD. Did it ever enter your mind that you should go and -tell the policeman of this sight or this vision that you had seen? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Really it didn't. - -Representative FORD. It never entered your mind? - -Mr. ROWLAND. I never dreamed of anything such as that. I mean, I -must honestly say my opinion was based on movies I have seen, on the -attempted assassination of Theodore Roosevelt where they had Secret -Service men up in the building such as that with rifles watching the -crowds, and another one concerned with attempted assassination of the -other one, Franklin Roosevelt, and both of these had Secret Service men -up in windows or on top of buildings with rifles, and this is how my -opinion was based and why it didn't alarm me. - -Perhaps if I had been older and had more experience in life it might -have made a difference. It very well could have. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Rowland, did the man with the rifle have any -distinctive facial appearance such as a mustache or a prominent scar, -anything of that sort which you could observe? - -Mr. ROWLAND. There was nothing dark on his face, no mustache. There -could have been a scar if it hadn't been a dark scar. If it was, you -know, a blotch or such as this, there was nothing very dark about the -color of his face. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Rowland, will you recount as precisely and as -specifically as you can, the exact conversation between you and your -wife from the time you first noticed this man until your conversation -about the man concluded, indicating what you said and what she said in -language as closely as you can recollect it? - -Mr. ROWLAND. That is a whopper. - -I am almost sure I told her or asked her, did she want to see a Secret -Service agent. She said, "Where," and I said, "In the building there," -and at that time she told me to look--I remember what she was looking -at. Right directly across from us in this plaza in front of the pond -there was a colored boy that had an epileptic fit or something of this -type right then, and she pointed this out to me and there were a couple -of officers there and a few moments later they called an ambulance, -this is what she told me to look at then, and we looked at this for a -short period of time, and then I told her to look in the building, the -second floor from the top and on that end, the two open windows, is I -think what I said, and I said, "He is not there now." - -I think that is what I said. She said, "What did he look like," and I -told her just that--I gave her more or less a brief description of what -he looked like, open collared shirt, light-colored shirt, and he had a -rifle, I described the rifle in as much detail as I have to you to her. - -Mr. SPECTER. You described the rifle to her in as much detail as you -have to us? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -And then she said something about wishing she could have seen him but -he was probably somewhere else in another part of the building watching -people now. Then we were discussing again, just preceding that we -were discussing the event with Mr. Stevenson, this was about 2 weeks -beforehand, this was fresh on our mind, and right after that we started -discussing that it was a security man. - -We were looking around, we became very security conscious. We noted -that policemen, I think there were maybe 2, maybe 3 on the viaduct -itself; some 20 or 30, I would say 20 to 25 policemen being in that -immediate area. - -Representative FORD. About what time, as you can best recollect, did -this conversation with your wife take place? - -Mr. ROWLAND. About 5 minutes until about 22 after. I think I again -looked at my watch. - -Representative FORD. After you and your wife looked up and saw that -there was no one in the window, did you ever again look at the window? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did, constantly. - -Representative FORD. And as you looked at the window subsequently did -you ever see anything else in the window? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No; not in that window, and I looked back every few -seconds, 30 seconds, maybe twice a minute, occasionally trying to find -him so I could point him out to my wife. - -Something I would like to note is that the window that I have been told -the shots were actually fired from, I did not see that, there was -someone hanging out that window at that time. - -Representative FORD. At what time was that? - -Mr. ROWLAND. At the time I saw the man in the other window, I saw this -man hanging out the window first. It was a colored man, I think. - -Representative FORD. Is this the same window where you saw the man -standing with the rifle? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No; this was the one on the east end of the building, the -one that they said the shots were fired from. - -Representative FORD. I am not clear on this now. The window that you -saw the man that you describe was on what end of the building? - -Mr. ROWLAND. The west, southwest corner. - -Representative FORD. And the man you saw hanging out from the window -was at what corner? - -Mr. ROWLAND. The east, southeast corner. - -Representative FORD. Southeast corner. On the same floor? - -Mr. ROWLAND. On the same floor. - -Representative FORD. When did you notice him? - -Mr. ROWLAND. This was before I noticed the other man with the rifle. - -Representative FORD. I see. This was before you saw the man in the -window with the rifle? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. My wife and I were both looking and making remarks -that the people were hanging out the windows. I think the majority of -them were colored people, some of them were hanging out the windows to -their waist, such as this. We made several remarks to this fact, and -then she started watching the colored boy, and I continued to look, and -then I saw the man with the rifle. - -Representative FORD. After 12:22 or thereabouts you indicated you -periodically looked back at the window in the southwest corner where -you had seen the man with the rifle. What happened as the motorcade -came along? - -Mr. ROWLAND. As the motorcade came along, there was quite a bit of -excitement. I didn't look back from then. I was very interested in -trying to see the President myself. I had seen him twice before but I -was interested in seeing him again. - -Representative FORD. Did you notice a sedan come by with any officials -in it at the outset of the motorcade? - -Mr. ROWLAND. The first car in the motorcade was, I think it was, a -white or cream-colored Ford. This appeared to be full of detectives or -such as this; rather husky men, large men. - -I think there were four in this car. - -Representative FORD. Was this an open or a closed car? - -Mr. ROWLAND. This was a sedan, the doors were closed. - -Representative FORD. What was the next car you noticed? - -Mr. ROWLAND. The next car was the President's car. - -Representative FORD. Did you notice again or did you look again during -this period of time at the School Depository Building? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No. From where we were standing the motorcade came down -Main, and when it turned on Houston we watched the motorcade, my wife -remarked at Jackie's clothing, Mrs. Kennedy, and we made a few remarks -of her clothing and how she looked, her appearance in general, and we -also discussed--we didn't immediately recognize Governor Connally and -his wife being in the car, we were trying to figure out who that was. - -Then the motorcade turned on Elm and was obscured from our vision by -a crowd, and we were discussing the clothing of Mrs. Kennedy at that -time. My wife likes clothes. - -Representative FORD. You never again, after the motorcade once came -into your view, looked back at the School Depository Building? - -Mr. ROWLAND. I did after the shots were fired. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had you finished telling us all about the conversation -between you and your wife concerning this man? - -Mr. ROWLAND. To the best of my recollection, yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. - -You have described seeing someone in another window hanging out. Would -you draw a circle and put an "A" beside the window where you say you -saw someone hanging out. That is on Exhibit No. 356. - -(Witness marking.) - -Mr. SPECTER. At about what time was it that you observed someone -hanging out of the window that you have marked as window "A"? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Again about 12:15 just before I noticed the other man. - -Mr. SPECTER. You have marked the double window there. Would you draw -the arrow in the red pencil indicating specifically which window it was. - -(Witness marking.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe with as much particularity as you can -what that man looked like? - -Mr. ROWLAND. It seemed to me an elderly Negro, that is about all. I -didn't pay very much attention to him. - -Mr. SPECTER. At or about that time did you observe anyone else hanging -out any window or observe any one through any window on the same floor -where you have drawn the two circles on Exhibit 356? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No; no one else on that floor. - -Mr. SPECTER. You testified before that there were other windows where -you had seen people hanging out, is that correct? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us and indicate on the picture, Exhibit -356, to the best of your ability to recollect just which those windows -were? - -Mr. ROWLAND. There was either two or three people in this window. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mark that with a "B" if you would, please. - -(Witness marking.) - -Mr. ROWLAND. Those pair of windows. I think this was all on that floor. - -Here on this floor. - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the second floor? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Circle the windows and mark it with a "C" if you will. - -Mr. ROWLAND. I think it was this pair immediately over the door, and -this pair. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mark one "C" and one "D," if you will. - -(Witness marking.) - -Mr. ROWLAND. Here I know there were two Negro women, I think. - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating window "C." You say two Negro women? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And were those women each in one window, both in one -window or what? - -Mr. ROWLAND. They were one in each window. Then at the window "D" there -was one, one window open. - -Mr. SPECTER. Which was that, indicate that by an arrow, if you please. - -(Witness marking.) - -Mr. ROWLAND. The one on the west side, and this appeared to have two -heads just inside the window, no one hanging out the window as with the -others. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe anyone else hanging out the window? - -Mr. ROWLAND. There was someone on the third floor. I think it was--wait -a minute--yes, the third floor had three adjoining sets of windows that -were open. They were all open to the fullest extent they would open. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you mark those "E," "F" and "G," please. - -(Witness marking.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any people in those windows marked "E," -"F," and "G"? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, and this pair, "E," both windows were open, and there -appeared to be one man in the eastern window. - -Mr. SPECTER. Which you have now marked with an arrow. - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. How about as to window marked "F"? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Both windows were completely up, and there appeared to -be several people in that window, four or five, a number that I don't -remember, you know I couldn't see all of them. - -Mr. SPECTER. How about window "G"? - -Mr. ROWLAND. This again, both windows were open all of the way and I -think there was one person in each window. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other people either through any other -window or hanging out of any other window in the building? - -Mr. ROWLAND. There was no one in the fourth floor to my knowledge, to -my recollection. - -There were what appeared to be secretaries, several young white girls -or ladies, standing on the steps of the building in this general area. - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the door of the building. - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. - -Mr. ROWLAND. And there was no one else in there, except I think there -was a policeman in front of the door on the sidewalk. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you described everybody you have observed, with -respect to everybody hanging out the windows? - -Mr. ROWLAND. To the best of my recollection. - -Mr. SPECTER. Or anybody you could see through the windows? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. As to the window which you have marked "A", that double -pair of windows, which, if either or both, was open? - -Mr. ROWLAND. The one on the eastern side was open and not all of the -way it would open. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is that the one you have marked with an arrow? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. How much of that window was open? - -Mr. ROWLAND. It was open about that far. - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating 2-1/2 feet? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Two feet. - -Mr. SPECTER. Two feet. - -Mr. ROWLAND. Indicating 2 feet. It looked like the windows might open -3--two-thirds or three-fourths of the distance. - -Mr. SPECTER. How about the other of the windows in the double-set -marked "A," was that completely closed? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. How about the windows in the group marked "B," was either -of those windows open? - -Mr. ROWLAND. They were both completely open. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe with any more particularity the people -you saw in the window which you have marked "B"? - -Mr. ROWLAND. There was a white man hanging out either "G" or "B," I do -not remember which. He was the only white man, besides the man in these -windows that I saw---- - -Mr. SPECTER. When you said "these windows" you mean the first window -you marked with a black circle and a black arrow? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else you can tell us about the people -you saw in window "B"? - -Mr. ROWLAND. I think to the best of my recollection there was either -two or three people in window "B," and as I stated before, either "B" -or "G" had a white man in the window. I do not remember which. I do -remember it was one of the windows on the corner. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect if the other people in window "B" were -white or Negro? - -Mr. ROWLAND. They were Negro. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you have any occasion to look back at window "A" -from the time you saw the man whom you described as a Negro gentleman -in that window until the President's procession passed by? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Well, up until the time the procession was---- - -(Short recess.) - -Representative FORD. I suggest, Mr. Specter, we resume the hearing. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you read the last question, Mr. Reporter, please. - -(Question read.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you like to start the question again or would you -like the question repeated? - -Mr. ROWLAND. I understand the question. - -Let me see, the exact time I do not remember, but the man, the colored -man, was in that window until the procession reached Commerce--I mean -Main, and Ervay. I was looking back quite often, as I stated. - -Mr. SPECTER. How do you fix the time that he was there until the -procession reached the intersection of Commerce and Ervay? - -Mr. ROWLAND. The police motorcycle was almost in front of me with the -speaker on very loud, giving the relative position about every 15 or 20 -seconds of the motorcade, and this is how I was able to note that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you observing the window which you marked "A" at the -time he departed? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No, I didn't. I just know, I was looking at the crowd -around, and then I glanced back up again, and neither did I see the man -with the rifle nor did I see him. The colored man went away. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long was that after you first noticed the colored man -in the window "A"? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Fifteen minutes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had you looked back at window "A" at any time during that -15 minute interval? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had you seen anybody in window "A" during that time? - -Mr. ROWLAND. The colored man was that---- - -Mr. SPECTER. So how many times did you notice him altogether? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Several. I think I looked back about two, maybe three -times a minute, an average. I was, you know, trying to find the man -with the rifle to point him out to my wife. I noticed the colored man -in that window. I looked at practically every window in the building -but I didn't look at anything with the detail to see what I was looking -for. - -Mr. SPECTER. Over how long a time span did you observe the Negro man to -be in the window marked "A"? - -Mr. ROWLAND. He was there before I noticed the man with the rifle and -approximately 12:30 or when the motorcade was at Main and Ervay he was -gone when I looked back and I had looked up there about 30 seconds -before or a minute before. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long after you heard the motorcade was at Main and -Ervay did the motorcade pass by where you were? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Another 5 minutes. - -Mr. SPECTER. So that you observed this colored man on the window you -have marked "A" within 5 minutes prior to the time the motorcade passed -in front of you? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Approximately 5 minutes prior to the time the motorcade -came, he wasn't there. About 30 seconds or a minute prior to that time -he was there. - -Mr. SPECTER. A few moments ago in your testimony you stated that in -observing policemen in the area you had observed some officers on the -overpass? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how far were you from the overpass at that -time? - -Mr. ROWLAND. 125 yards approximately. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to observe with clarity the individuals who -were standing on the overpass? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Not with detailed distinction. I do remember there were -three women there, two or three men, a couple of boys, and two officers -on the overpass itself. - -Mr. SPECTER. How did you identify the officers as being policemen? - -Mr. ROWLAND. They were uniformed officers. - -Mr. SPECTER. What kind of uniforms were they wearing? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Blue; I think trimmed in gold, uniforms. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are those the regular uniforms worn by the Dallas police? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where were you standing at the time you observed the -people on the overpass whom you have just described? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Position "B." - -Mr. SPECTER. At about what time was it when you observed those -individuals? - -Mr. ROWLAND. This was between the time between 12:15 and 12:30. I think -I looked more than once. - -Mr. SPECTER. How many times did you look? - -Mr. ROWLAND. I don't know really. I was more or less scanning the crowd. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did the individuals present on the triple overpass change -at the various times when you looked in that direction? - -Mr. ROWLAND. I don't think so. I don't think anyone went off who was up -there or anyone else went on. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you now relate what occurred as the Presidential -motorcade passed by you? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Well, the car turned the corner at Houston and Main. -Everyone was rushing, pressing the cars, trying to get closer. There -were quite a few people, you know, trying to run alongside of the car -such as this; officers were trying to prevent this. The car turned--we -had more or less a long period of time that they were within our sight -considering some of the other people. - -The car went down Houston, again turned on Elm, and it was proceeding -down Elm when we heard the first of the reports. This I passed off -as a backfire, so did practically everyone in the area because gobs -of people, when I say gobs, I mean almost everyone in the vicinity, -started laughing that couldn't see the motorcade. The motorcade was -obscured from our vision by the crowd. - -Mr. SPECTER. What would the occasion be for laughter on the sound of a -backfire? - -Mr. ROWLAND. I don't know. A lot of people laughed. I don't know. But -a lot of people laughed, chuckled, such as this. Then approximately 5 -seconds, 5 or 6 seconds, the second report was heard, 2 seconds the -third report. After the second report, I knew what it was, and---- - -Mr. SPECTER. What was it? - -Mr. ROWLAND. I knew that it was a gun firing. - -Mr. SPECTER. How did you know that? - -Mr. ROWLAND. I have been around guns quite a bit in my lifetime. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was the sound of the fire different from the first and -second sounds you described? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No, that is just it. It did not sound as though there was -any return fire in that sense. - -Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by return fire? - -Mr. ROWLAND. That anyone fired back. You know, anyone in the procession -such as our detectives or Secret Service men fired back at anything -else. It gave the report of a rifle which most of the Secret Service -men don't carry in a holster although I am sure they had some in the -cars but the following two shots were the same report being of the -same intensity. I state, because from a different position I know that -the same rifle is not going to make the same sound in two different -positions especially in a position such as it was, because of the -ricocheting of sound and echo effects. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your basis for saying that, Mr. Rowland, that the -rifle would not make the same sound in two different positions? - -Mr. ROWLAND. This is due to a long study of sound and study of echo -effects. - -Mr. SPECTER. When had you conducted that study? - -Mr. ROWLAND. In physics in the past 3 years. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you read any special books on that subject? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Quite a few. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect any of the titles and authors? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No; I do not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you take any special courses which would give you -insight into that subject matter? - -Mr. ROWLAND. This was more or less on my own initiative. The instructor -gave me help and aided me when I requested this during my off periods -of class. - -Mr. SPECTER. What instructor was that? - -Mr. ROWLAND. His name was Foster. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall his first name? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Sam. - -Mr. SPECTER. And at what school does he teach? - -Mr. ROWLAND. He teaches at Crozier Tech, Downtown Technical High School. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is he still there? - -Mr. ROWLAND. To my knowledge. - -Mr. SPECTER. How recently did you have a course with him? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Last year, last school year. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the second sound by comparison with the -first sound which you have described as being similar to a backfire? - -Mr. ROWLAND. The second to my recollection was identical or as closely -as could be. - -Mr. SPECTER. How about the third shot? - -Mr. ROWLAND. The same. - -Mr. SPECTER. Sounded the same to you? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any impression or reaction as to the point of -origin when you heard the first noise? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Well, I began looking, I didn't look at the building -mainly, and as practically any of the police officers that were there -then will tell you, the echo effect was such that it sounded like it -came from the railroad yards. That is where I looked, that is where all -the policemen, everyone, converged on the railroads. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say railroad yards, what area are you referring -to? Identify it on Commission Exhibit No. 354, for example? - -Mr. ROWLAND. In this area in here. - -Now most of the officers converged on this area---- - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say "in here," I will get a black pencil here and -see if we can draw a circle around the area where you have described -the echo effect? - -Mr. ROWLAND. The echo effect felt as though it came from this general -vicinity. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mark that with the letter "C" in the center of your circle. - -(Witness marking.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, as to the second shot, did you have any impression as -to the point of origin or source? - -Mr. ROWLAND. The same point or very close to it. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how about the third shot? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Very close to the same position. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you look, if you recall, after you heard the -first shot, in what direction? - -Mr. ROWLAND. We were standing here at position "B." At the sound of the -second report, I proceeded across the street. My wife was very anxious -to find out what was going on. I proceeded to cross the street like -this. - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating you were--she was pulling you ahead? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. She was very anxious to find out what was going on. - -Mr. SPECTER. That was at the sound of the second report? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, it was. - -Mr. SPECTER. And will you mark with this black pencil, with the letter -"D," where you went to, as she pulled you across the street? - -Mr. ROWLAND. We crossed the street in this area, proceeded down the -sidewalk, around here, there was quite a bit of crowd, people were -running. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where were you at the time that you heard the second -report? - -Mr. ROWLAND. At the second report we were approximately at the curb, -out from the curb, we were off the sidewalk. - -Mr. SPECTER. At point "V"? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. How about the third shot, where were you then? - -Mr. ROWLAND. At the third shot I was in this vicinity halfway to where -we crossed the street to the end of the block. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you indicate with the letter "D" where you were at -the time of the third shot? - -(Witness marking.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you look when you heard the third report? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Well, we were trying to actually see the President's car, -that is what my wife was trying to do, and then I decided I might as -well give in to her. - -Mr. SPECTER. After the shots occurred, did you ever look back at the -Texas School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No; I did not. In fact, I went over toward the scene of -the railroad yards myself. - -Mr. SPECTER. Why did you not look back at the Texas School Book -Depository Building in view of the fact that you had seen a man with a -rifle up there earlier in the day? - -Mr. ROWLAND. I don't remember. It was mostly due to the confusion, and -then the fact that it sounded like it came from this area "C," and that -all the officers, enforcement officers, were converging on that area, -and I just didn't pay any attention to it at that time. - -Mr. SPECTER. How many officers were converging on that area, to the -best of your ability to recollect and estimate? - -Mr. ROWLAND. I think it would be a very good estimation of 50, maybe -more. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how fast the President's automobile was -driving as it proceeded in front of you when you were standing at -position "B"? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Very slow pace, 5, 10 miles an hour. - -Mr. SPECTER. When, if at all, did you first report what you had -observed in the Texas School Book Depository Building about the man -with the rifle to anyone in an official position? - -Mr. ROWLAND. That was approximately 15 minutes after the third report -that I went to an officer, he was a plainclothesman who was there -combing the area, close to position "C," looking for footprints and -such as this, some lady said someone jumped off one of the colonnades -and started running, there was an officer looking in this area for -footprints and such as this. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was that lady ever identified to you? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No; I do not remember his name. He introduced himself and -showed me his ID. - -Mr. SPECTER. I mean the lady you talked about. - -Mr. ROWLAND. No; I don't. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now as to the officer to whom you made a report, was he a -State, City or Federal official, if you know? - -Mr. ROWLAND. It was a Dallas detective. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you give him a statement or what procedure did he -follow? - -Mr. ROWLAND. It happened such as this: He was looking in this area for -footprints or any visible marks. I started looking around also. I found -a fountain pen that someone had probably dropped during the confusion -or fell out of their pocket when they fell on the ground or such. I -picked it up and handed it to him. I had on gloves, I wasn't to mess up -the fingerprints because it very possibly could have fallen out of the -pocket of the man who supposedly had jumped down. - -Mr. SPECTER. You were wearing gloves on that day? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was it a chilly day? - -Mr. ROWLAND. The sun was shining, it was a fair day but the wind was -blowing and it was breezy. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was it cold enough to have gloves? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I had on my overcoat and my wife had a fairly heavy -coat. - -Mr. SPECTER. Proceed, and tell us what you did. - -Mr. ROWLAND. I handed this pen to the officer and I started thinking -and I went to him and told him again just before the motorcade came -I saw a man in the building with a rifle, and he immediately took me -to Sheriff Decker which, in turn, asked two other deputies to take -me to his office. We went there to his office. There was quite a few -reporters around, such as this. They took my wife and I to a back room -and shut us off completely from the reporters and everyone. There was -no one in that room for 4 hours but this sheriff and a FBI agent, Agent -Sorrels, and a stenographer, and I think another lady and a man that -had seen another man carrying a rifle in a case on the other end of -town earlier prior to this time. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure there was a court reporter present? - -Mr. ROWLAND. It was one of the secretaries from the office of the -sheriff, stenographer who was taking, using an electric typewriter -every time. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was she taking down in shorthand---- - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. As you could observe---- - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Each word that you were saying? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did she have any sort of a machine, such as a stenograph, -as the gentleman who is serving as court reporter has? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No; she took it down in shorthand and retyped it on an -electric typewriter that she brought into the room. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did she type up what you had said? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; typed up three or four copies and then I signed it at -that time. - -Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a photostatic copy of what purports to -be an affidavit which you gave to the Sheriff's Department of the -County of Dallas, Tex., on November 22, 1963, and has been marked as -Commission Exhibit No. 357. Would you take a look at that, take your -time, of course, and tell us whether or not that is the affidavit which -you took on the occasion which you have just related? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. In fact, at this time I also noted that my wife -dragged me across the street. - -Mr. SPECTER. Just one detail on that statement: There is a reference -here to the man holding the rifle being in a position which you -describe as "a parade-rest sort of position." That appears---- - -Mr. ROWLAND. It does appear in there? - -Mr. SPECTER. Eighteen lines down. - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I see it. It wasn't a parade-rest position. It was -a port-arms position. I never noticed that in there before. There -were--actually, I will say this, I said what I had to say. The FBI -agent reworded it, and she took it down. - -Now this happened; it wasn't my words verbatim, it was reworded. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever use the words "parade-rest" position? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Not to my recollection. - -Mr. SPECTER. So it is just an error in transcription which you did not -notice when you signed it. - -(At this point, Chief Justice Warren entered the hearing room.) - -Is there any other aspect of the affidavit which you gave, which you -have just observed, which is at variance with your current recollection -of what you saw and heard on that date? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Here it states we were at the west entrance of the -sheriff's office, that is just a general approximation, we were 25 feet -from there, in fact. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other portions of it which vary from your -current recollection? - -Mr. ROWLAND. I don't remember saying definitely that he was back about -15 feet. In fact, I think I said, as I said now, 3 to 5 feet, because -from my point of view if he was back 15 feet I couldn't have even seen -him. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other parts of the affidavit which vary from -your current recollection? - -Mr. ROWLAND. The actual time between the reports I would say now, after -having had time to consider the 6 seconds between the first and second -report and two between the second and third. It is very fast for a -bolt-loading rifle. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether or not the statement is accurate in -that you told the police officials at that time that there was a time -span of 8 seconds between the first and second shots and a time span of -3 seconds between the second and third shots? - -Mr. ROWLAND. I think I did tell them that, yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And with respect to the facts which appear in the -statement that you said the man was standing about 15 feet back -from the windows, did you actually tell them that when you made the -statement, or is that an error of transcription? - -Mr. ROWLAND. I don't think I said that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now are there any other points where the affidavit is at -variance from your current recollection? - -Mr. ROWLAND. The time that it states here, we arrived in downtown -Dallas at approximately 12:10. Actually we arrived before 12 but we -took the position that we have, approximately 12:10, that position "V" -on this other Exhibit 354. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other variances between your current -recollection and this statement? - -Mr. ROWLAND. I do not think so. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you tell the police officials at the time you made -this statement that there was a Negro gentleman in the window on the -southwest corner of the Texas School Book Depository Building which you -have marked with a circle "A"--pardon me, southeast? - -Mr. ROWLAND. At that time, no. However, the next day on Saturday there -were a pair of FBI officers, agents out at my home, and they took -another handwritten statement from me which I signed again, and this -was basically the same. At that time I told them I did see the Negro -man there and they told me it didn't have any bearing or such on the -case right then. In fact, they just the same as told me to forget it -now. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Reporter, will you please repeat that last answer for -us? - -(Answer read.) - -Mr. SPECTER. I am now handing you a document which I have marked as -Commission Exhibit No. 358, which purports to be a reproduction of a -statement which was purportedly given by you to the FBI, two agents of -that Bureau. - -Will you take a look at that and tell us if that is the statement which -you gave to the FBI to which you just referred? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Again, I have a variance of time and a variance of -distance that he was from the window. - -Mr. SPECTER. Before you direct your attention to those factors, Mr. -Rowland, are you able to tell us whether or not this is the statement -which you gave to the FBI? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. My wife was with me when I gave the statement. - -Mr. SPECTER. And without looking at the statement which, may the record -show, you are not now doing, do you recollect the names of the FBI, -don't look there, just tell me if you can recollect without seeing -their names on the statement? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I talked to seven different pairs of FBI agents -and I don't remember their names. - -Mr. SPECTER. Seven different pairs? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, sir; I had--this is only one of the statements. They -came to my home or where I worked and took three more besides this one. -There were four handwritten statements that I signed. - -Mr. SPECTER. Before getting the details on those, tell me in what -respect, if any, the statement which we have identified as Commission -Exhibit No. 358 differs from what you told the FBI agents at that time? - -Mr. ROWLAND. I do not think it differs. - -Mr. SPECTER. Then that statement accurately reflects what you said at -that time? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I am sure it does. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, in what respects, if any, does that statement vary -from your current recollection about the facts which are contained -therein? - -Mr. ROWLAND. The time factor, the time that we arrived in town. Here -again it states 12:10. Now this is the time that we arrived at the -position that we stayed at, not the time we arrived in town, and the -distance the man was back from the window. Here it states 12 to 15 -feet. I do not remember saying that although I very well could have. -Everything was confusing. - -Mr. SPECTER. But what is your current recollection on the distance that -the man was back from the window? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Three to four, five feet, somewhere in that neighborhood. -He wasn't very far. Far enough for the sunlight to hit him and at the -angle the sun was that wouldn't be very far. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now noticing that the date on that statement is November -24, 1963, does that appear to you to be the date when that statement -was taken, or was it taken on the 23d, the day after the assassination? - -Mr. ROWLAND. It was Saturday morning, the 24th. - -Mr. SPECTER. On what day was the assassination? - -Mr. ROWLAND. It was Thursday, wasn't it? - -Mr. SPECTER. No; the assassination occurred on Friday. - -Mr. ROWLAND. I am sorry, that is right. It is so confused in this. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, was the statement taken the second day after the -assassination or the morning of the first day after the assassination? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No; it was taken on Saturday morning before I went to work -because on Sunday there was another statement taken from me at my job -where I was working. This occurred right after Oswald was shot himself. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, are you able to identify that statement which we -have marked Exhibit 358, as the statement taken on Saturday, the 23d, -as distinguished from the statement taken on Sunday, the 24th of -November? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. How can you be certain of that, Mr. Rowland? - -Mr. ROWLAND. The one on Sunday, this particular one, I do remember the -agent used a legal pad. He did have three pages of it handwritten. I -made corrections on this in different parts of it. The one on Sunday -was not a legal pad. It was a steno pad and it, in fact, covered a page -and a half, I think, and it was concerned with mainly could I identify -the man that I saw, his description. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, at the time you made the Saturday statement, which -you say was transcribed and appears as Exhibit 358, did you at that -time tell the interviewing FBI agents about the colored gentleman who -you testified was in the window which you marked with an "A"? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you ask them at that time to include the information -in the statement which they took from you? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No. I think I told them about it after the statement, as -an afterthought, an afterthought came up, it came into my mind. I also -told the agents that took a statement from me on Sunday. They didn't -seem very interested, so I just forgot about it for a while. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was that information included in the written portion of -the statement which was taken from you on Sunday? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No, it wasn't. It shouldn't but the agent deleted it -though himself, I mean I included it in what I gave. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say deleted it, did he strike it out after -putting it in, or did he omit it in the transcription? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Omitted it. - -Senator COOPER. I think you said a while ago that when you told the FBI -agents on Saturday that you had seen this Negro man in the window, that -they indicated to you that they weren't interested in it at all. What -did they say which gave you that impression? - -Mr. ROWLAND. I don't remember exactly what was said. The context was -again the agents were trying to find out if I could positively identify -the man that I saw. They were concerned mainly with this, and I brought -up to them about the Negro man after I had signed the statement, and at -that time he just told me that they were just trying to find out about -or if anyone could identify the man who was up there. They just didn't -seem interested at all. They didn't pursue the point. They didn't take -it down in the notation as such. - -Mr. SPECTER. It was more of the fact that they didn't pursue it, didn't -include it? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Or that they said something which led you to believe they -were not interested? - -Mr. ROWLAND. It was just the fact they didn't pursue it. I mean, I -just mentioned that I saw him in that window. They didn't ask me, you -know, if was this at the same time or such. They just didn't seem very -interested in that at all. - -Mr. WRIGHT. By man who was up there you mean man with the rifle? - -Mr. ROWLAND. They were interested in the man with the rifle, and -finding out if anyone could identify him. The other man was the colored -man in the other window. - -Representative FORD. A minute ago you indicated that you could see -the man in the window with the rifle because of the light conditions, -I think you referred to the sun shining in that direction toward the -building. Was the sun bright, do you recall that at all? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; the sun was out, somewhat bright. I didn't have any -sunglasses on at that time because I had broken them the week before, -and I hadn't gotten any new ones. The sun was shining in from what I -could tell he was standing where I seen him through the window on my -right. This would be the east window of the pair. It appeared as though -the sun were shining in through either a window on the other side of -the building, on the west side of the building, or possibly the western -pair, one of the pair. This sun was--that hit him about from the -shoulders down as far as I could see, that is why I was able to tell -the rifle was of the type or such that it was. - -Representative FORD. As you faced the window, as you faced the -building, the sun was shining over which shoulder, to your left or your -right shoulder? - -Mr. ROWLAND. As I faced the building the sun was shining--well, I would -have been facing the building if the building were in this direction -more or less this way and the sun would have been shining from this -area. - -Representative FORD. Over your left shoulder? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; forward. - -Representative FORD. That is all. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to identify the man whom you saw in the -window with the rifle for the FBI agents? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did they have pictures with them at that time? - -Mr. ROWLAND. I have seen three pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald, two of -them in the paper. They had a morning newspaper was all they had. It -wasn't a very good picture, and I couldn't tell. I didn't know, I -wasn't going to say because I didn't, I mean. I just couldn't identify -him. I wouldn't be--I had already resigned myself not to be given that -task, because I couldn't definitely say any one man was that man. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what was the basis of your concluding, as you put it, -that you resigned yourself to that task? - -Mr. ROWLAND. This was because I just didn't have a good enough look at -his face. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was that your conclusion at this moment that you are -unable to identify, with precision and certainty, the man whom you saw -holding the rifle in the window of the Texas School Book Depository -Building? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; that is true. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you believe that you could identify the Negro gentleman -in window "A" whom you testified you saw? - -Mr. ROWLAND. I would have to say perhaps. I can't say for sure. - -Mr. SPECTER. A moment ago you testified that you gave statements -to seven different pairs of FBI agents. Have you already testified -about three of those occasions, or, stated differently, start at the -beginning and tell us, as best you can recollect, what were those -occasions, when they occurred, where you were when you had those -meetings with the seven different pairs of agents. - -Mr. ROWLAND. The first statement I gave was in the sheriff's office on -that date. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were there two FBI agents present? - -Mr. ROWLAND. I think there were. - -Mr. SPECTER. And do you recollect their names? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No, I do not. - -Mr. SPECTER. When was the second occasion? - -Mr. ROWLAND. The Saturday morning. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where was that statement given? - -Mr. ROWLAND. That was in the agent's car in front of my mother-in-law's -house. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect the identities of those FBI agents? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No, I do not. - -Mr. SPECTER. That is the statement you have identified as being -reproduced in Commission Exhibit 358? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, when was the third statement obtained? - -Mr. ROWLAND. It was Sunday morning, the following day, November 25. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where was that statement obtained? - -Mr. ROWLAND. This was at my place of employment at the Pizza Inn. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, Sunday after the assassination would have been the -24th. - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; that is right, I am sorry, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you certain of the day of the week, however? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I am certain of that because I went to work at noon -on Sunday and they were there when I got to work, they were waiting on -me. - -Mr. SPECTER. That is the statement which you described as having been -taken on a stenopad? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you sign that statement? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did. This was in the presence of my wife because -she was there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect the identity of those FBI agents? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No; I do not, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. When was the fourth statement taken? - -Mr. ROWLAND. The fourth was Tuesday night of that week. - -Mr. SPECTER. Of the following week? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where was that statement taken? - -Mr. ROWLAND. This was at my mother-in-law's house, and---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Was that reduced to writing? - -Mr. ROWLAND. That was merely one paragraph. They were concerned with -identification of the man that I saw. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell them essentially at that time? - -Mr. ROWLAND. The description and that I could not positively identify -him. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you sign a statement for them at that time? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the identity of those FBI agents? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. SPECTER. Up to this point were any of the FBI agents the same who -had interviewed you and taken statements from you? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. All different? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did the fifth occasion take place when you were -interviewed by the FBI? - -Mr. ROWLAND. This was again where I worked. This was, it was not a -formal written statement. They just took notes on what I said, had me -recount that entire thing to the best of my knowledge. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did this occur, the fifth one? - -Mr. ROWLAND. It was on the following Friday. - -Mr. SPECTER. About what time of the day or night was it? - -Mr. ROWLAND. About 8:30 p.m. - -Mr. SPECTER. At the Pizza Inn? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; Dallas time. - -Mr. SPECTER. And do you recall the identities of those FBI agents? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No; I don't. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were they the same as any who had ever interviewed you -before? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; none of them are the same. - -Mr. SPECTER. When was the sixth occasion when you were interviewed by -the FBI? - -Mr. ROWLAND. It was again on Sunday. - -Mr. SPECTER. This would have been November--it would have been December -1st? - -Mr. ROWLAND. I don't remember that date but it was---- - -Mr. SPECTER. The second Sunday after the assassination? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where was the sixth interview conducted? - -Mr. ROWLAND. This was at the Pizza Inn. - -Mr. SPECTER. About what time of the day or night was that? - -Mr. ROWLAND. About 1 o'clock. This was again right after I came to work. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was the statement taken from you at that time reduced to -writing? - -Mr. ROWLAND. It was again informal, just taking notes on my statement, -had me recount what I had told the other agents. - -Mr. SPECTER. What were they interested in specifically at that time if -you recall? - -Mr. ROWLAND. They just wanted me to recount everything that I could -recall. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the identity of those agents? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were they again different agents? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; they were. - -Mr. SPECTER. From all those you had seen before? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. When had you given the seventh statement to the FBI? - -Mr. ROWLAND. The last statement I gave I think it was to one FBI agent -and a Secret Service Agent. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did that occur? - -Mr. ROWLAND. That was either Tuesday or Wednesday of the week. I do not -remember which. - -Mr. SPECTER. On the week following the Sunday when you gave the sixth -statement? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall the identities of those men? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had you ever seen either before? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I hadn't. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did they reduce your statement to writing? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; they just had me recount everything again. - -Mr. SPECTER. In addition to the times you have already stated, have you -ever been interviewed by the FBI on any other occasion? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever been interviewed by the Secret Service on -any other occasion? - -Mr. ROWLAND. The afternoon of the 22d and the seventh time was the only -two times of the Secret Service. - -Mr. SPECTER. There was a Secret Service agent present in the sheriff's -office? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; he was Agent Sorrels. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you gave the affidavit which we have identified as -Commission Exhibit 357? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. In addition to the times you have mentioned, have you -ever been interviewed by any agent or representative of the Federal -Government? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I have not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed by any other agent or -representative of the State Government of Texas? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, on any of the other occasions, other than those you -testified about, did you mention seeing the Negro gentleman in the -window which we have circled with the "A"? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Rowland, what was the quality of your grades in high -school? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Well, up until my senior year they were 4.0 straight A's, -in my senior year I got a couple of B's. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what your IQ or intelligence quotient is? - -Mr. ROWLAND. 147. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know when you were tested for that? - -Mr. ROWLAND. In 1963; in May. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Rowland, a couple of other questions. - -Are you able to give us any other type of a description of the Negro -gentleman whom you observed in the window we marked "A" with respect to -height, weight, age? - -Mr. ROWLAND. He was very thin, an elderly gentleman, bald or -practically bald, very thin hair if he wasn't bald. Had on a plaid -shirt. I think it was red and green, very bright color, that is why I -remember it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us an estimate as to age? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Fifty; possibly 55 or 60. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us an estimate as to height? - -Mr. ROWLAND. 5'8", 5'10", in that neighborhood. He was very slender, -very thin. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us a more definite description as to -complexion? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Very dark or fairly dark, not real dark compared to some -Negroes, but fairly dark. Seemed like his face was either--I can't -recall detail but it was either very wrinkled or marked in some way. - -Mr. SPECTER. Shortly after the assassination and before these -interviews that you described were completed, Mr. Rowland, had you -learned or heard that the shots were supposed to have come out of the -window which we have marked with the "A"? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir. I did not know that, in fact until Saturday when -I read the paper. - -Mr. SPECTER. Which Saturday is that? - -Mr. ROWLAND. The following Saturday. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would that be the second day, the day after the -assassination? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, knowing that, at that time, did you attach any -particular significance to the presence of the Negro gentleman, whom -you have described, that you saw in window "A"? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; that is why I brought it to the attention of the FBI -agents who interviewed me that day. This was as an afterthought because -I did not think of it firsthand. But I did bring it to their attention -before they left, and they---- - -Mr. SPECTER. That was at the interview on the Saturday morning November -23? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you think it of sufficient significance to bring it -to the attention of any of the other interviewing FBI agents on the -balance of the interviews you have described? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did on the following Sunday to the agents who -interviewed me where I worked. - -Mr. SPECTER. How about the following Sunday? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No; I did not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, at this time I move for the admission -into evidence of the three exhibits which we have shown this witness. - -The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted. - -Mr. SPECTER. Exhibits Nos. 356, 357, and 358. That completes our -questioning, Your Honor. - -(The documents referred to were marked Commission's Exhibits Nos. 356, -357, and 358 for identification and admitted into evidence.) - -The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cooper, have you any questions? - -Senator COOPER. You said earlier that you had been much interested in -and pursued studies in sounds, I believe? - -Mr. ROWLAND. I have studied quite a bit of electronics, sound. Math and -science is what I like. - -Senator COOPER. You said you had read books on this subject. Did you -ever conduct any experiments yourself? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; in the form of--there is a theory that sound is a -basis of a transmitter and a receiver, that you have to have a receiver -to have sound. There is a theory that if a tree falls down in the -middle of a forest and there is nobody around where they can hear it, -there is no sound. - -Well, I have conducted experiments on this, and I--it is very -interesting, very fascinating, but you can't prove it or you can't -disprove it because if you have got a microphone there you have got a -receiver. - -Senator COOPER. Did you ever conduct any experiments with rifles, -firing a rifle in relation to sound? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; in a firing range. - -Senator COOPER. Beg pardon? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Firing range. - -Senator COOPER. Yes. - -Mr. ROWLAND. I did conduct a few experiments. One of them was firing a -bullet over water; you know, we were using a set of wood blocks to fire -into, so we had a big vat of water that we were firing over, and we -had several different articles and composition floating on the water, -trying to measure the effect of the sound wave upon that. Such as this -we did conduct. - -Senator COOPER. I think you did say that when you heard the first -report that you considered it to be a rifle shot? - -Mr. ROWLAND. I did, but almost immediately everyone started laughing -so I did not give it any further consideration until the second shot, -second report. - -Senator COOPER. At the time you saw a man standing near a window in the -Texas School Book Depository with a rifle, can you state whether there -were any, did you know whether or not any police officers were near you? - -Mr. ROWLAND. There was an officer about 20 feet to my left. - -Senator COOPER. Did you see any others? - -Mr. ROWLAND. There were officers all over, that was the closest one. -There were four or five on the block across the street from me, two of -them being with the boy who had the epileptic fit. - -There was also an officer in front of the doors to that building. -There were several on the corners. I would say there were 20 uniformed -officers right there in that 1-1/2-block area. - -Senator COOPER. Could any of the officers that you saw whose position -you noted, have seen this window from the place where they were -standing? - -Mr. ROWLAND. They could have; yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. You don't remember whether any of them were looking up -there? - -Mr. ROWLAND. No; I don't remember whether they were. No; I don't. - -Senator COOPER. Did it occur to you that you should speak to the -officer about seeing a man in the window? - -Mr. ROWLAND. It has. Do you ever have reoccurring dreams, sir? - -Senator COOPER. What? - -Mr. ROWLAND. Do you ever have reoccurring dreams? - -Senator COOPER. Yes. - -Mr. ROWLAND. This is a reoccurring dream of mine, sir, all the time, -what if I had told someone about it. I knew about it enough in advance -and perhaps it could have been prevented. I mean this is something -which shakes me up at times. - -Senator COOPER. I don't want to disturb you about that but my point was -at the time did you--I think you said, though, you thought that he was -a--he could have been a--Secret Service man, officer. - -Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; that is right. - -Senator COOPER. That is all. - -The CHAIRMAN. Anything further, Congressman Ford? - -Representative FORD. Mr. Rowland, have you ever had occasion to go back -to the scene and reconstruct it? Have you ever gone back---- - -The CHAIRMAN. Supposing we take a few minutes recess. - -Mr. ROWLAND. The answer to that question is yes; I do all the time. I -pass that area very frequently. - -The CHAIRMAN. Any other questions, gentlemen, Mr. Wright? - -Mr. WRIGHT. No, Your Honor. - -The CHAIRMAN. Very well, Mr. Rowland, I want to thank you for coming -here and cooperating with the Commission. I know that this is a matter -that recalls very sordid thoughts to your mind, and I can see how you -would be somewhat distressed about it but you have been very frank and -cooperative with us and I appreciate it. - -We will take a short recess. - -(Short recess.) - - -TESTIMONY OF JAMES RICHARD WORRELL, JR. - -The CHAIRMAN. All right. - -Will you raise your right hand and be sworn, please? - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this -Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please. - -Mr. Worrell, the purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of -Arnold Louis Rowland, Amos Lee Evins, yourself, and Robert Jackson, who -were in the vicinity of the assassination scene on November 22, 1963. -The Commission proposes to ask you and the other witnesses for facts -concerning your knowledge of the assassination of the President. - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Specter, will you proceed with the examination. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please? - -Mr. WORRELL. James Richard Worrell, Jr. - -The CHAIRMAN. Senator, will you preside while I answer a phone call to -another member of the Commission? - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your address, Mr. Worrell? - -Mr. WORRELL. 13510 Winterhaven Drive. - -Mr. SPECTER. What city is that? - -Mr. WORRELL. In Dallas, it is the Farmers Branch of the suburb of -Dallas. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long have you resided in Dallas, Tex.? - -Mr. WORRELL. About 12 years. - -Mr. SPECTER. And where did you live before that? - -Mr. WORRELL. 3140 Storey Lane. - -Mr. SPECTER. And in what city is Storey Lane located? - -Mr. WORRELL. Dallas. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where were you born? - -Mr. WORRELL. Livermore, Calif. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how old are you at the present time? - -Mr. WORRELL. Twenty. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in California? - -Mr. WORRELL. I am not exactly sure. I was a little bitty old thing and -I think it was 2 or 3 years. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you move from California? - -Mr. WORRELL. From California we moved to Abilene, I think. - -Mr. SPECTER. Abilene, Tex.? - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And have you lived in Texas since that time? - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your marital status? - -Mr. WORRELL. Sir? - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you married or single? - -Mr. WORRELL. Single, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you live with your parents? - -Mr. WORRELL. My mother and sister. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how much schooling have you had? - -Mr. WORRELL. Eleven years. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you end your schooling, if you have ended it? - -Mr. WORRELL. I ended it October of this year, I quit. - -Mr. SPECTER. What school were you going to at that time? - -Mr. WORRELL. Thomas Jefferson. - -Mr. SPECTER. High school? - -Mr. WORRELL. High school; yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Located in Dallas, Tex.? - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And were you in the 11th grade or had you completed the -11th grade? - -Mr. WORRELL. I was a senior. - -Mr. SPECTER. How were your grades in school? - -Mr. WORRELL. Average. - -(The Chief Justice entered the hearing room at this point.) - -Mr. SPECTER. How were you occupied or employed back on November 22, -1963? - -Mr. WORRELL. I was in school then. I skipped school to go there. - -Mr. SPECTER. You were attending Jefferson High School on that day or -were enrolled at that time? - -Mr. WORRELL. I was enrolled but I hadn't been going since October. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was there any special reason for your not going since -October? - -Mr. WORRELL. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had you been employed anywhere from the time you stopped -going to school? - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. I was employed for El Capitan Oil Drilling out -in Kermit, Tex. - -Mr. SPECTER. What sort of work were you doing for them? - -Mr. WORRELL. I was a floor man on a derrick. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you say floor man? - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. On November 22, 1963, were you working on that day for -your employer? - -Mr. WORRELL. No. I didn't start this oil job until--it was the last of -January. - -Mr. SPECTER. Of 1964? - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And are you working for them at the present time? - -Mr. WORRELL. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Whom are you working for now? - -Mr. WORRELL. I am not employed now. - -Mr. SPECTER. Then going back to November 22, 1963, you had no job at -that time? - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you attend school that day at all? - -Mr. WORRELL. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline for us briefly what your activities were -from the time you awakened until about noon time on November 22? - -Mr. WORRELL. Well, I got up about, well, I got up at my usual time, -about 6:30. I was going to go to school that day but I decided to go -see the President and my mother left about 7:30, and my sister left -about a quarter of 8. I left about 8, and hitchhiked down to Love Field -and got there. It took me quite a while to get there, about 9, and just -messed around there until the President come in, whatever time that -was. And then I didn't get to see him good at all. So, I caught a bus -and went over, went downtown and I just, I don't know, happened to -pick that place at the Depository, and I stood at the corner of Elm and -Houston. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you leave Love Field before the President did? - -Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Why did you happen to leave Love Field before he left? - -Mr. WORRELL. Well, so I could see him better. - -Mr. SPECTER. Couldn't you get a good view of him at Love Field? - -Mr. WORRELL. No, I just saw him off the plane and I figured that I -wasn't going to see him good so I was going to get a better place to -see him. - -Mr. SPECTER. How did you travel from Love Field down to Elm and Houston? - -Mr. WORRELL. Bus. No, no; I just traveled so far on the bus. I went -down to Elm, and took a bus from there. I went down as far as, I don't -know where that bus stops, anyway I got close to there and I walked the -rest of the way. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time, to the best of your recollection, did you -arrive at the intersection of Elm and Houston? - -Mr. WORRELL. Well, about 10, 10:30, 10:45, something around there. -There weren't many people standing around there then. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, about how long before the Presidential motorcade -came to Elm and Houston did you get there? - -Mr. WORRELL. An hour; an hour and a half. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure you were at Love Field when the President -arrived there? - -Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now I am going to show you a photograph which I -have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 359. Take a look at that, if you -would, please, and tell us whether or not you can identify what scene -that is? - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes, this is Elm, Pacific, and Commerce. This is the -Depository right here, and this is Stemmons, and this is the way the -President come down. - -Mr. SPECTER. So is that the assassination scene itself? - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now take a look at that picture and tell us where you -were standing--and I will give you a pencil so you can mark it on that -picture itself--at the time the Presidential motorcade came by. Mark -it with an "X," if you would, just exactly where you were standing, as -best as you can recollect it, at this moment, at the time the President -went by. - -Mr. WORRELL. Right underneath that window right there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, how close were you standing to this building which I -will ask you to identify; first of all, what building is that? - -Mr. WORRELL. That is the Texas Depository. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. - -Now how close to that building were you standing? - -Mr. WORRELL. I was, I don't know, 4 or 5 feet out from it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you standing with your face to the building, with -your back to the building, or how? - -Mr. WORRELL. My back was to the building. - -Mr. SPECTER. I show you a photograph which has been identified as -Commission Exhibit 360 and I will ask you if you can identify what that -building is? - -Mr. WORRELL. That is the Depository. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. - -Now on this picture will you again, with an "X," mark where you were -standing as closely as you can recollect it. - -Mr. WORRELL. That car is in the way. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. Put the mark then right above where the car is, -indicating where you were standing on the sidewalk near that building. - -(Witness marking.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you observe the President's motorcade come by? - -Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Describe to us what you saw, heard, and observed at that -time, as the motorcade came by. - -Mr. WORRELL. Well, I saw him--I was standing looking--I don't know my -directions very well; anyway, I was looking down towards Elm Street -watching him come, and they filed by me---- - -Mr. SPECTER. On which street were you watching them come? - -Mr. WORRELL. This way. - -Mr. SPECTER. Look at Exhibit 359 and pick out which street they were on? - -Mr. WORRELL. They were coming down this way, so on and so forth. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, now, were they coming down Elm Street or were they -coming down Main Street with a right-hand turn on to Houston Street -with a curve on Houston down Elm, recollect it if you can? - -Mr. WORRELL. That is right. They did turn around. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did they come down---- - -Mr. WORRELL. I didn't see him up there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where was the President's motorcade at the time you first -saw it? - -Mr. WORRELL. Oh, about right in here. - -Mr. SPECTER. Proceeding in this direction, indicating in a generally -northerly direction on Houston Street, right? - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes, north. - -Mr. SPECTER. Then tell us what the President's motorcade did? - -Mr. WORRELL. It turned and went down this way. - -Mr. SPECTER. Made a left-hand or right-hand turn? - -Mr. WORRELL. Left-hand turn. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did it pass right by in front of where you were standing? - -Mr. WORRELL. Within a hundred feet, I guess. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to get a pretty good view of the President's -motorcade? - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right; go ahead and tell us. - -Mr. WORRELL. Didn't get too good a view of the President either, I -missed out on there too. But as they went by, they got, oh at least -another 50, 75 feet on past me, and then I heard the shots. - -Mr. SPECTER. How many shots did you hear? - -Mr. WORRELL. Four. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe anything at about that time? - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir, I looked up and saw the rifle, but I would say -about 6 inches of it. - -Mr. SPECTER. And where did you see the rifle? - -Mr. WORRELL. I am not going--I am not too sure but I told the FBI it -was either in the fifth or the sixth floor on the far corner, on the -east side. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now looking at the picture which we have identified as -Commission Exhibit No. 360, which is where you have drawn an "X," can -you indicate the line of vision which you followed to the point where -the rifle was to the best of your ability to recollect? - -Mr. WORRELL. Well, when I heard the first shot it was too loud to be -a firecracker, I knew that, because there was quite a big boom, and I -don't know, just out of nowhere, I looked up like that, just straight -up. - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating you looked straight back over your head, -raising your head to look over your body at the 90 degree angle? - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes; and I saw it for the second time and I looked back to -the motorcade. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe at that time? - -Mr. WORRELL. I saw about 6 inches of the gun, the rifle. It had--well -it had a regular long barrel but it had a long stock and you could only -see maybe 4 inches of the barrel, and I could see---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to observe any of the stock? - -Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. How much of the stock were you able to observe? - -Mr. WORRELL. Just very little, just about 2 inches. - -Mr. SPECTER. How many inches of the barrel then could you observe -protruding beyond the stock? - -Mr. WORRELL. About 4 inches, I would say, not very much. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, at the time of the second shot were you able to -observe anything at that precise instant? - -Mr. WORRELL. You mean as to firing it. - -Mr. SPECTER. As to anything at all. What did you see when the second -shot went off? - -Mr. WORRELL. Well, I looked to see where he was aiming and after the -second shot and I have seen the President slumping down in the seat, -and---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see the President slump in his seat after the -second shot? - -Mr. WORRELL. Uh, huh. And about that---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you look up and see the rifle between the first and -the second shots? - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. And saw the firing on the second and then before -he could get a shot I was--I took in everything but especially the car, -the President's car, and saw him slumping, and I looked up again and -turned around and started running and saw it fire a third time, and -then---- - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you see it fire a third time, when you looked up, -the time you just described? - -Mr. WORRELL. When I was, I did it all in one motion, I looked up, -turned around and ran, pivoted. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you hear, if anything, after that? - -Mr. WORRELL. Just a lot of commotion, everybody was screaming and -saying "duck." - -Mr. SPECTER. After the third shot, did you hear a fourth shot? - -Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes. Just as I got to the corner of Exhibit 360, I -heard the fourth shot. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, did these four shots come close together or how -would you describe the timing in general on those? - -Mr. WORRELL. Succession. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were they very fast? - -Mr. WORRELL. They were right in succession. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now going back to the position of the rifle which you -testified that you saw, you say it was either on the fifth or sixth -floor? - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is there any way you can tell us which floor it was on, or -would the angle of your observation permit you to be sure it was the -fifth or sixth floors? - -Mr. WORRELL. I am not going to say I am positive, but that one there. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right, would you mark that one---- - -Mr. WORRELL. Because that right there, I feel, would have obstructed my -vision but I said it was either on the fifth or sixth floor. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, now, will you mark with a "Y" the window which you -have just pointed to? - -(At this point Chief Justice Warren departed the hearing room.) - -Mr. WORRELL. A "Y?" - -Mr. SPECTER. A "Y." - -(Witness marking.) - -Mr. SPECTER. You have marked the "Y" over two windows. Was it the -window--which window was it there as best you can recollect, as between -those two? - -Mr. WORRELL. I didn't mean to bring it down that far but this one. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you put an arrow then at the window that you have -just indicated, was the one where the rifle was protruding from? - -(Witness marking.) - -Mr. SPECTER. So, the sum of it is you are not sure whether it was the -fifth or the sixth floor, but you believe it was on the floor where you -have marked a "Y" which is the sixth floor and that was the line of -vision as you looked straight up over your head? - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you run, which is what you have just described -that you did next? - -Mr. WORRELL. Well, a better view of it is here in 360. I ran down -Houston Street alongside the building and then crossed over the street, -I ran alongside the building and crossed over, and in 359, I was -standing over here, and I saw this man come bustling out of this door. - -Mr. SPECTER. Before you get to that, Mr. Worrell, let me show you a -diagram which has been prepared here, which may be of some assistance -to you in telling us your movements in running. I will mark this as -Commission Exhibit 361 and ask Mr. David Belin, Staff Counsel, to make -a statement as to the preparation of this exhibit for the record. - -Mr. BELIN. The record will show that Exhibit 361 was prepared in the -exhibit section of the Federal Bureau of Investigation by Inspector -Leo. J. Gauthier and Eugene Paul Airy, exhibit specialist, with the -assistance of Charles D. Musser, illustrator, with particular reference -to showing the Texas School Book Depository Building, and the immediate -area with relation to the parking lot that employees used. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Worrell, take a good look at this. Study it for just -a moment in order to get your bearings on this particular map. This -is the Texas School Book Depository Building designated as such. This -is Houston Street and this is the direction I am indicating that the -motorcade, as you have described from the other exhibit, came from, a -generally northerly direction. This is generally north, and it made the -left-hand turn which you have already described for the record, onto -Elm Street Parkway going down the front there. - -Now perhaps the best place to start on this is with this red pencil, to -put a small "X" where you were standing on this map. - -Mr. WORRELL. Where I was standing? - -Mr. SPECTER. Where you were standing. - -(Witness marking.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Now will you describe your movement in running as you had -started to a few moments ago, indicating with a line of the red pencil -just exactly where you went and describe it as you go along. - -Mr. WORRELL. Well, as I said on the third shot I was looking up and -pivoting and turning to run at the same time. When I got here I heard -the fourth shot. - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating that you were at that point right at the corner -of the building on Houston? - -Mr. WORRELL. Making a turn. - -Mr. SPECTER. Having moved slightly to your left, and beginning to make -a turn to go in a generally northerly direction on Houston Street? - -Mr. WORRELL. I thought that was north. - -Mr. SPECTER. No, this is north, there is a symbol showing which is -north. - -Mr. WORRELL. Okay. Then I turned the corner, went right down beside the -building on the sidewalk and when I got to the corner---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Corner of what? - -Mr. WORRELL. Of this building. - -Mr. SPECTER. Of the Texas School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do there? - -Mr. WORRELL. Cut directly across, kind of at an angle. - -Mr. SPECTER. Across Houston Street as you have drawn the red line there? - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes, and I rested there, I was out of breath, I smoke too -much, short winded. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark that "Y" where you stopped and rested and -tell us how long you stopped there? - -(Witness marking.) - -Mr. WORRELL. How long? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. WORRELL. I was there approximately 3 minutes before I saw this man -come out the back door here. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. - -Now will you put a "Z" where you first saw the man whom you have just -described or mentioned? - -Mr. WORRELL. It is here I am pretty sure, I am not positive. - -(Witness marking.) - -Mr. SPECTER. You are pretty sure--but you can't be positive--but you -are pretty sure? - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Okay. Now, describe as best you can the man whom you have -testified you saw at point "Z." - -Mr. WORRELL. Describe his appearance? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. Start by telling us how tall he was, to the best of -your ability to recollect and estimate? - -Mr. WORRELL. To the--it is going to be within 3 inches, 5-7 to 5-10. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to his weight? - -Mr. WORRELL. 155 to 165. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to his height? - -Mr. WORRELL. 5-7, 5-10. - -Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me, your best estimate as to his age. - -Mr. WORRELL. Well, the way he was running, I would say he was in his -late twenties or middle--I mean early thirties. Because he was fast -moving on. - -Mr. SPECTER. Of what race was he? - -Mr. WORRELL. White. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the characteristics of his hair? - -Mr. WORRELL. Black. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he have---- - -Mr. WORRELL. Well, I will say brunette. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did he have a full head of hair, a partial head of hair, -or what? - -Mr. WORRELL. Well, see, I didn't see his face, I just saw the back -of his head and it was full in the back. I don't know what the front -looked like. But it was full in the back. - -Mr. SPECTER. What clothes did the man have on? - -Mr. WORRELL. Dark, like a jacket like that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a dark gray jacket? - -Mr. WORRELL. No, no. It was a jacket like that. - -Mr. SPECTER. A suit jacket? - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Or was it a sports jacket? - -Mr. WORRELL. Sports jacket. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did not have on matching coat and trousers? - -Mr. WORRELL. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was it dark in color or light? - -Mr. WORRELL. It was dark in color. I don't know whether it was blue, -black, or brown, but it was dark, and he had light pants. And that is -all I can say on his clothes, except his coat was open and kind of -flapping back in the breeze when he was running. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, are there any other distinguishing characteristics -that you can describe about him? - -Mr. WORRELL. Not a thing. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did he---- - -Mr. WORRELL. He wasn't holding nothing when he was running. He was just -running. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe him do, if anything? - -Mr. WORRELL. Well, when he ran out here, he ran along the side of the -Depository Building and then when he got---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Make a dotted line as to where he went, or take this black -pencil and make a line as to where he went. - -(Witness marking.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you see him eventually go? - -Mr. WORRELL. Well, he went on further. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is that the last you saw him? - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did something come between you and him so that your -vision was obstructed? - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. As of the point you have just dotted out there? - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What obstructed your view of him at that juncture or at -that point? - -Mr. WORRELL. I can't really be sure, it was a building, but the type of -building, I don't know. - -Mr. SPECTER. During the course of your seeing him, did you ever get a -view of his face? - -Mr. WORRELL. Oh, no, no. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. What did you do next, Mr. Worrell? - -Mr. WORRELL. Well, I went on down this way and headed up back to Elm -Street. - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating you went on down to Pacific? - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And then proceeded---- - -Mr. WORRELL. No, no; that is wrong. I went on Pacific and---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Just a minute. You proceeded from point "Y" on in a -generally northerly direction to Pacific and then in what direction did -you go on Pacific, this would be in an easterly direction? - -Mr. WORRELL. I went east. - -Mr. SPECTER. You went in an easterly direction how many blocks down -Pacific? - -Mr. WORRELL. I went down to Market and from Market I went on Ross. - -Mr. SPECTER. You went left on Market down to Ross, and then? - -Mr. WORRELL. From Ross I went all the way to Ervay. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where were you heading for at that time? - -Mr. WORRELL. For the bus stop near my mother's office. And I rode the -bus from there out to the school and hitchhiked the rest of the way to -Farmers Branch. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. When did you first report to any official what -you had seen and heard on this occasion? - -Mr. WORRELL. Well, I turned the TV on early next morning to see what -had happened, and Chief Curry was making a plea---- - -Senator COOPER. Is that going to become a part of the evidence at this -point? - -Mr. WORRELL. Chief Curry was making a plea for anyone who had seen the -shooting, would they please come down and make a statement. So I called -the Farmer Branch police, and told them, and they come and picked me -up, and they called the Dallas police, and they come way out there and -picked me up and took me downtown to make a statement and brought me -back home. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Worrell, before we leave this Exhibit 361, are you -able to testify as to the accuracy of the scale drawing here which -represents the part of it that you have testified about, specifically -the presence of the Texas School Book Depository Building on the -northwest corner of Elm and Houston. Is that the accurate location of -that building? - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And is it an accurate reproduction of the intersection of -Elm and Houston leading into the parkway on Elm Street? - -Mr. WORRELL. As far as this? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. As far as all the parts you have testified about Elm and -Houston. Is it accurate that Pacific is one block in the northerly -direction away from Elm Street? - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And Ross is another block, generally, in a northerly -direction away from Pacific? - -Mr. WORRELL. No, Ross is over here. This is Record Street. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, first there is Elm, then there is Pacific, and then -there is Ross. Is that much accurate as the map shows it to be, is that -the way the streets are laid out? - -Mr. WORRELL. I think so. - -Mr. SPECTER. How about the general width of Houston Street in relation -to the general width of the Texas School Depository Building, is that -about right? - -Mr. WORRELL. I don't know, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right, that is fine. - -At the same time that we have marked Exhibit 361, Mr. Chairman, I would -like to use the next number in sequence, No. 362 to mark the other half -of this same exhibit which is designated Texas School Book Depository -floor plan of the first floor, which we will not use at this time, but -I would like to mark it in sequence. - -And at this time I ask that Commission Exhibits Nos. 359, 360, 361, and -362 be admitted into evidence. - -Senator COOPER. So ordered. Let those exhibits be admitted as part of -the evidence. - -(The documents referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. -359, 360, 361, and 362 were admitted into evidence.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Worrell, you had told us that you heard a plea by -Chief of Police Curry for all witnesses to come forward. - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And you heard that plea on the 23d of November? - -Mr. WORRELL. It was on Saturday. - -Mr. SPECTER. What action, if any, did you take in response to that -request? - -Mr. WORRELL. I called on the phone to the Farmers Branch police. - -Mr. SPECTER. You called who? - -Mr. WORRELL. The Farmers Branch police. - -Mr. SPECTER. I see. And what did you do then? - -Mr. WORRELL. Well, I told them what I had seen and they said, "Well, -stay there and we will come and get you." - -Mr. SPECTER. Did they come and get you? - -Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you then tell the police what you had seen and heard? - -Mr. WORRELL. I told a Lt. Butler what I had seen, and I don't know -if--they placed the call into the Dallas police and something like an -hour later they came to pick me up there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you make a statement or take an affidavit on what you -had seen and heard? - -Mr. WORRELL. To the Dallas police? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. - -Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes, sir. I made a statement and signed five of them. - -Mr. SPECTER. I will show you a paper which is marked Commission Exhibit -363 which purports to be an affidavit bearing your signature. - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Let me ask you first of all if that is your signature? - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And would you take just a minute, take your time and read -that affidavit over, please. - -Have you had a chance to read that over, Mr. Worrell? - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you tell us that you signed five different statements -or five copies of the same statement? - -Mr. WORRELL. Five copies of the same statement. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is this the statement which you signed in affidavit form -at that time? - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And---- - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. As you have just--have you had time to read it over just -now? - -Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is that statement accurate based on your current -recollection of the event? - -Mr. WORRELL. It is accurate down to, well, I changed my height to 5-8 -from 5-7. - -Mr. SPECTER. Aside from that minor variation, is it accurate in its -entirety; that is, is it all accurate? - -Mr. WORRELL. Well, I left out, when I was making my affidavit, I left -out, while I was running I heard a gun fire two more times. Well, as I -told you, I was turning the corner when I heard it and saw it fire the -third time, and then the fourth. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, are there any other additions or modifications -that you would like to make from the contents of your statement in -accordance with your recollection at this moment? - -Mr. WORRELL. I can't verify that--the time they got here because I am -not too sure of that. - -Mr. SPECTER. You are not sure of that now? - -Mr. WORRELL. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. - -Are there any other modifications that you would want to make in the -contents of the statement? - -Mr. WORRELL. Leave out firecracker. It sounded, it was too loud for a -firecracker. - -Mr. SPECTER. Your current recollection is that it was too loud for a -firecracker? - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other respect in which your current -recollection differs from this affidavit? - -Mr. WORRELL. Instead of looking I ran, I looked up. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other respect in which your current -recollection differs from the affidavit? - -Mr. WORRELL. Well, I left out on the barrel of the rifle, I left out -part of the stock. I didn't recollect that at that time. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other aspect in which your current -recollection differs from the facts set forth in this affidavit? - -Mr. WORRELL. Well, everything else is O.K. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the length of time -between the first shot and the last shot which you heard? - -Mr. WORRELL. The best estimate 5, 6 seconds. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to, been interviewed by or given a -statement to any Federal agent? - -Mr. WORRELL. The FBI down at Dallas. - -Mr. SPECTER. How many times have you seen the FBI agents? - -Mr. WORRELL. Once. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect the names of the agents you saw? - -Mr. WORRELL. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect when it was that you saw those agents? - -Mr. WORRELL. It was on that Saturday, the 23d. - -Mr. SPECTER. And where were you when you saw them? - -Mr. WORRELL. In the Dallas Police Station. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long did that interview last? - -Mr. WORRELL. Thirty minutes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you sign a statement for them? - -Mr. WORRELL. I just signed it for the Dallas police. They didn't have -me sign anything. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed by any other Federal agent or -representative? - -Mr. WORRELL. Well, Mr. Sorrels interviewed me when he called me and -asked me some questions when he called me up Wednesday night, I guess -it was. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was that in relationship to your coming here to this -Commission hearing? - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. What sort of questions did Mr. Sorrels ask you? - -Mr. WORRELL. What I saw. And I told him. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was that just on the telephone? - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. How long did that conversation last? - -Mr. WORRELL. Not very long. He talked to my mother first. He talked to -her for 15 minutes, something like this. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was he talking to her about what you saw or about travel -arrangements to get you here? - -Mr. WORRELL. I don't know. I was watching television, I didn't know -even who she was talking to. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. Aside from that conversation with Mr. Sorrels -and the interview you have had with the FBI, have you ever talked with -any agent or representative of the Federal Government. - -Mr. WORRELL. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any police official of Dallas or the -State of Texas after you gave this affidavit? - -Mr. WORRELL. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Based on seeing only the back of this man, were you ever -able to make any identification of him? - -Mr. WORRELL. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chairman, I move for the admission into evidence of -the other exhibit which we have used with Mr. Worrell being Commission -Exhibit No. 362. - -Senator COOPER. The exhibit will be admitted to evidence. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 362 for -identification and received in evidence.) - -Mr. SPECTER. That concludes our questions. - -Senator COOPER. You stated that, I believe, you looked up after you had -heard the first report? - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. You looked up and saw the barrel of a rifle, and then -the rifle fired. What made you know that it fired? - -Mr. WORRELL. Pardon? - -Senator COOPER. How did you know it was fired when you were looking at -it? - -Mr. WORRELL. Well, I saw what you might call a little flame and smoke. - -Senator COOPER. You saw something that came out of the barrel? - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Were you looking at it when you heard the third report? - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir, looking at it, turning around and started to run. - -Senator COOPER. Did you see anything then? - -Mr. WORRELL. Same thing, a little flash of fire and then smoke. I -didn't see it on the fourth one. - -Senator COOPER. Did you only look at the car in which the President was -riding one time when you said you saw him slump? - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Did you look back at the President's car then? - -Mr. WORRELL. No, sir. I didn't do that because I mean I didn't know if -there was one or more guns, because I wondered why if it was in such -rapid succession being a bolt action, I found out later, and I didn't -know what was coming off, so I was running to the back of the building -because I figured that would be the safest place. - -Senator COOPER. Did you see anyone in the windows, in the Texas -Depository Building? - -Mr. WORRELL. No, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Did you notice where this man you have described later -as running away from the building, did you see him come out of the -building? - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Where? - -Mr. WORRELL. At the back entrance. Approximately where I put the mark -"Z." - -Senator COOPER. Was he running all the time you saw him? - -Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir, he sure was. - -Senator COOPER. That is all. - -Mr. WRIGHT. Prior to hearing the first shot, had you looked up at the -School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. WORRELL. No, sir; I sure didn't. - -Mr. WRIGHT. That is all. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to observe the direction of the barrel which -you have described? - -Mr. WORRELL. Pointing right down at the motorcade. - -Mr. SPECTER. Any special part of the motorcade? - -Mr. WORRELL. I mean, I couldn't really say that because it was too high -up and he could have been pointing at anyone of the cars. I mean I -couldn't tell from where I was standing. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was it on the part of the motorcade which had turned down -Elm Street or on the part of the motorcade that was still on Houston or -what? - -Mr. WORRELL. It was the part that was turned down Elm Street. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Worrell, we have a report of the Federal Bureau of -Investigation which contains a purported interview with you, designated -as report of Robert P. Gemberling dated November 30, 1963, which has -this statement: - -"He"--referring to you--"stated that last night when he saw photographs -of Lee Harvey Oswald on television he felt this was the person he had -seen running away from the building. He stated this person did not look -back but he was certain this was a white person since he had a profile -view." - -My question, first of all, to you: Did you have a profile view of the -man who ran away from the building that you described? - -Mr. WORRELL. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. The second question is, did you tell the FBI that you had -a profile view? - -Mr. WORRELL. No, sir, I sure didn't. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you tell the FBI agent who interviewed you, that you -felt that this person was Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. WORRELL. I don't know if I did or not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anyone else leave the building, that is the -Texas School Book Depository Building, except the man you have already -described to us? - -Mr. WORRELL. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. - -Senator COOPER. Are there any further questions? I believe we will -stand in recess until 2 o'clock. - -(Whereupon, at 1:10 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -Afternoon Session - -TESTIMONY OF AMOS LEE EUINS - - -The President's Commission reconvened at 2:15 p.m. - -The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will come to order. - -Amos, will you stand up, please, and raise your right hand? - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this -Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated. How old are you? - -Mr. EUINS. Sixteen. - -The CHAIRMAN. All right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, should we start by reading the purpose? - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes. I think you received a copy of this statement. But I -just want to say to you that the purpose of today's hearing is to hear -the testimony of Arnold Louis Rowland, James Richard Worrell, Robert -H. Jackson, and yourself who were in the vicinity of the assassination -scene on November 22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask you facts -concerning your knowledge of the assassination of President Kennedy. - -You understand that? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes. - -The CHAIRMAN. All right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us your full name for the record, please? - -Mr. EUINS. Amos Lee Euins. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your exact date of birth, Amos? - -Mr. EUINS. January 10, 1948. - -Mr. SPECTER. January 10, 1948? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And are you a school boy at the present time? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What school do you go to? - -Mr. EUINS. Franklin D. Roosevelt. - -Mr. SPECTER. What grade are you in at that school? - -Mr. EUINS. The ninth. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you live with your parents, Amos? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. How is your health generally? - -Mr. EUINS. I guess it is all right. - -Mr. SPECTER. How are your eyes? - -Mr. EUINS. They are all right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Can you see good at a distance? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, I can see good at a distance, but I can't see at real -close range. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to read without glasses? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. You don't use glasses for any purposes, then? - -Mr. EUINS. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say you have trouble at close range, just what do -you mean by that? - -Mr. EUINS. You know, like I put something on real close. - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating about 4 or 5 inches from your eyes? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. And then they kind of get dim. But on a long -scene, I can see good. - -Mr. SPECTER. How are your grades in school, Amos? - -Mr. EUINS. They are all right. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are they better than average, or what? - -Mr. EUINS. They are about average. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. - -Going back to November 22, 1963, that is last year, Amos, do you recall -what you were doing early on that morning? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. When I first got up, I went to school. Then about -11:30, well, the teachers called us and told us the ones that wanted -to go downtown to see the President come down to the office and get an -excuse and they could go. So I went down to the office, and I got an -excuse, so I went downtown. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what time did you leave school? - -Mr. EUINS. 11:30. - -Mr. SPECTER. And where did you go from your school? - -Mr. EUINS. Downtown. - -Mr. SPECTER. What part of downtown? - -Mr. EUINS. Right over by the county jail. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the names of those streets, Amos? - -Mr. EUINS. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. If I told you they were Elm and Houston, would that help -your memory as to what the names of those streets were? - -Mr. EUINS. It was right by the freeway. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. Let me show you a photograph, Amos, which is on -a document I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 365. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 365 for -identification.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Take just a minute and look at that, and see if you can -recognize where that is. - -Mr. EUINS. This is going across the railroad tracks, back up to -here--right here at the corner is the Book Depository Building. - -Mr. SPECTER. That is the Book Depository Building, you say? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. - -Why don't you just put an "X" with this pencil on the Book Depository -Building, as you identify it there, Amos--on the building itself. - -(Witness marking.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you somewhere in that area when the President's -motorcade went by? - -Mr. EUINS. I was right here. - -Mr. SPECTER. Why don't you take this black pencil and put an "A" right -where you were, Amos. - -(Witness marking.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, what time did you get to the place where you have -marked with an "A"? - -Mr. EUINS. Oh, I would say around about 15 minutes or something like -that to 12, because my mother brought me down there. - -Mr. SPECTER. She drove you down, did she? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you with anybody when you came to that spot, or -did your mother leave you off there by yourself? - -Mr. EUINS. She left me. She had to go on to work. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, about how long was it after you got there that the -motorcade came by? - -Mr. EUINS. Oh, I would say about--I had been there about 15, maybe 20 -minutes. It come around the corner, come on around. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. - -Amos, I want to show you another picture here that I have marked as -Commission Exhibit No. 366. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 366 for -identification.) - -Mr. SPECTER. I ask you if you can recognize what that building is. - -Mr. EUINS. This here is the Book Depository Building. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. - -Now, look back over here at 365. Can you tell us which direction the -President's motorcade came from on this picture? - -Mr. EUINS. It come from right in here. - -Mr. SPECTER. First of all, do you know what the name of this street is? -Would that be Main Street, in Dallas? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; I think so. - -Mr. SPECTER. Coming down Main Street, indicating in a general westerly -direction. Turning which way? - -Mr. EUINS. This way. - -Mr. SPECTER. Turned right. - -Do you know if that is Houston Street? - -Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show the witness is identifying a street -heretofore identified as Houston. - -Then which way did the motorcade go after proceeding in a general -northerly direction on Houston? - -Mr. EUINS. It come this way, turn. - -Mr. SPECTER. Which way--right or left? - -Mr. EUINS. It turned to the left, coming down, going on. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the name of the street it turned onto when it -made the left turn? - -Mr. EUINS. I was just trying to keep an eye on the President. - -Mr. SPECTER. The witness has identified a street heretofore identified -as Elm Street. - -Tell us what you saw as the motorcade went by. - -Mr. EUINS. I was standing here on the corner. And then the President -come around the corner right here. And I was standing here. And I was -waving, because there wasn't hardly no one on the corner right there -but me. I was waving. He looked that way and he waved back at me. And -then I had seen a pipe, you know, up there in the window, I thought it -was a pipe, some kind of pipe. - -Mr. SPECTER. When had you first seen that thing you just described as a -pipe? - -Mr. EUINS. Right as he turned the corner here. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, exactly where did you see that thing you have -described as a pipe come from. And take a good look now before you tell -us where it was. - -Mr. EUINS. Right here. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you mark an "X" on Exhibit No. 366 where you saw -the pipe? Mark the exact window, if you can, Amos. - -(Witness marking.) - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. - -Proceed to tell us what happened, Amos. - -Mr. EUINS. Then I was standing here, and as the motorcade turned the -corner, I was facing, looking dead at the building. And so I seen this -pipe thing sticking out the window. I wasn't paying too much attention -to it. Then when the first shot was fired, I started looking around, -thinking it was a backfire. Everybody else started looking around. -Then I looked up at the window, and he shot again. So--you know this -fountain bench here, right around here. Well, anyway, there is a little -fountain right here. I got behind this little fountain, and then he -shot again. - -So after he shot again, he just started looking down this, you know. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who started looking down that way? - -Mr. EUINS. The man in the window. I could see his hand, and I could see -his other hand on the trigger, and one hand was on the barrel thing. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. - -Now, at the time the second shot was fired, where were you looking then? - -Mr. EUINS. I was still looking at the building, you know, behind -this--I was looking at the building. - -Mr. SPECTER. Looking at anything special in the building? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. I was looking where the barrel was sticking out. - -Mr. SPECTER. How many shots did you hear altogether? - -Mr. EUINS. I believe there was four, to be exact. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, where were you looking at the time of the third shot, -if you remember? - -Mr. EUINS. After he shot the first two times, I was just standing -back here. And then after he shot again, he pulled the gun back in -the window. And then all the police ran back over here in the track -vicinity. - -Mr. SPECTER. Slow down just a little bit in what you are telling us. - -When the second shot occurred, were you still standing at the point -where you marked with an "A" on 365? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. But I was right behind this little---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you a little bit behind of where that "A" is? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; right back here. - -Mr. SPECTER. Let's mark that with a "B," where you were at the time the -second shot occurred. - -(Witness marking.) - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. - -Now, when the third shot occurred, Amos, let me ask you again, where -were you looking then? - -Mr. EUINS. I was still down here, looking up at the building. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you see in the building? - -Mr. EUINS. I seen a bald spot on this man's head, trying to look out -the window. He had a bald spot on his head. I was looking at the bald -spot. I could see his hand, you know the rifle laying across in his -hand. And I could see his hand sticking out on the trigger part. And -after he got through, he just pulled it back in the window. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him pull it back in the window? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And were you still standing at point B? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. When he pulled it back in the window? - -Mr. EUINS. I was still behind here, yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where were you when you heard what you described as the -fourth shot? - -Mr. EUINS. The first shot I was standing here. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now you are referring to 366. Put an "L" on 366 where you -were standing at the first shot. - -Mr. EUINS. Right here. - -(Witness marking.) - -Mr. EUINS. And then as I looked up there, you know, he fired another -shot, you know, as I was looking. So I got behind this fountain thing -right in there, at this point B. - -Mr. SPECTER. At point B on 365? - -Mr. EUINS. I got behind there. And then I watched, he did fire again. -Then he started looking down towards my way, and then he fired again. - -Mr. SPECTER. The question I have for you now is where were you when he -fired on that fourth time. - -Mr. EUINS. I was still behind point B. - -Mr. SPECTER. You were still at point B when he fired the fourth time? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. Then he pulled the gun back in the window. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him pull the gun back in the window after the -fourth shot? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes; he just come back like this. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you watch what he did after that? - -Mr. EUINS. No, sir; because after he had pulled it back in the window, -I ran this way, and went across the tracks. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. - -You start on Exhibit 365, and put the black mark and show us the path -of where you ran on 365. - -Mr. EUINS. I was here at "B." - -(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) - -(Witness marking.) - -Mr. EUINS. I was coming down like this here, and there was a policeman, -you know there is a little cut you can come through there. There was a -policeman standing right around here. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where was the policeman standing? Mark that with point -"C," Amos. - -Mr. EUINS. Right there. - -(Witness marking.) - -Mr. SPECTER. You ran past the policeman standing at point C? - -Mr. EUINS. No, sir. You see, I come from point B, and ran here, and -told the policeman I had seen the shot, because they were looking at -the railroad tracks. So he put me on the cycle and he went to here. - -Mr. SPECTER. He put you on the cycle and took you where? - -Mr. EUINS. Up to the front of the building. - -Mr. SPECTER. The Texas School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; and then he called some more cars. They got all -around the building. And then the policemen came from the tracks, and -they got around the building. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you see the policemen come from the tracks to go -around the building? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. About how many policemen were there, would you say, Amos? - -Mr. EUINS. There was about 14 or something like that. They were coming -from the tracks here. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what the name of that policeman was, who was -in that position where you have marked C? - -Mr. EUINS. No, sir. He was kind of an old policeman. I ran down and got -him. And he ran up here. - -Mr. SPECTER. You mean---- - -Mr. EUINS. The Book Depository Building. - -Then he called some more cars. They got all the way around the -building. And then after that, well, he seen another man. Another man -told him he seen a man run out the back. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who that man was who said somebody ran out the -back? - -Mr. EUINS. No, sir. He was a construction man working back there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you there when the man talked about somebody running -out the back? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. He said the man had--he said he had kind of bald -spot on his head. And he said the man come back there. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what the name of the man was who told the -police that someone had run out the back? - -Mr. EUINS. . No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next, Amos? - -Mr. EUINS. So then they took me over to the county jail. And that is -where I told them what happened. And then they was standing around the -Book Depository Building, and I stayed over there to the jailhouse -about 6 o'clock. And then they took me home. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did they question you about what happened and what you -observed on that occasion? - -Mr. EUINS. At the jailhouse? - -Mr. SPECTER. At the jailhouse. - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. - -Amos, would you tell us everything that you can remember about what you -saw about the gun itself? - -Mr. EUINS. Well, when I first got here on the corner, the President was -coming around the bend. That is when--I was looking at the building -then. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did you think it was when you first saw it? - -Mr. EUINS. I thought it was a piece of pipe or something sticking out -the window. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did it look like it was a piece of metal to you? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; just a little round piece of pipe. - -Mr. SPECTER. About an inch in diameter, would you say? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how long was the piece of pipe that you saw? - -Mr. EUINS. It was sticking out about that much. - -Mr. SPECTER. About 14 or 15 inches? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. And then after I seen it sticking out, after -awhile, that is when I heard the shot, and everybody started looking -around. - -Mr. SPECTER. At that time, Amos, did you see anything besides the end -of the pipe? - -Mr. EUINS. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. For example, you didn't see anything about a stock or any -other part of the rifle? - -Mr. EUINS. No, sir--not with the first shot. You see, the President was -still right along down in here somewhere on the first shot. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, when you saw it on the first occasion, did you think -it was a rifle then? Or did that thought enter your mind? - -Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I wasn't thinking about it then. But when I was -looking at it, when he shot, it sounded like a high-powered rifle, -after I listened to it awhile, because I had been in the NDCC for about -a year. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is NDCC? - -Mr. EUINS. We call it a military army for the boys, at our school. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is that ROTC? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. ROTC. And have you had any opportunity to fire a weapon in -that ROTC class? - -Mr. EUINS. No, sir; not outside of just .22's. We fire them on the -firing range. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. - -Now, when you looked up at the rifle later, you described seeing some -of the trigger part. - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, describe as fully as you can for us what you saw -then, Amos. - -Mr. EUINS. Well, when he stuck it out, you know--after the President -had come on down the street further, you know he kind of stuck it out -more, you know. - -Mr. SPECTER. How far was it sticking out of the window would you say -then, Amos? - -Mr. EUINS. I would say it was about something like that. - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating about 3 feet? - -Mr. EUINS. You know--the trigger housing and stock and receiver group -out the window. - -Mr. SPECTER. I can't understand you, Amos. - -Mr. EUINS. It was enough to get the stock and receiving house and the -trigger housing to stick out the window. - -Mr. SPECTER. The stock and receiving house? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, what direction was the rifle pointing? - -Mr. EUINS. Down--what did you say--Elm? - -Mr. SPECTER. Elm Street? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; down Elm. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was it pointing in the direction of the President? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, could you see anything else on the gun? - -Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I could not. - -Mr. SPECTER. For example, could you see whether or not there was a -telescopic lens on the gun? - -Mr. EUINS. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, is there anything else about the gun that you can -describe to us that you have not already told us about? - -Mr. EUINS. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, what kind of a look, if any, did you have at the man -who was there? - -Mr. EUINS. All I got to see was the man with a spot in his head, -because he had his head something like this. - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating his face down, looking down the rifle? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; and I could see the spot on his head. - -Mr. SPECTER. How would you describe that man for us? - -Mr. EUINS. I wouldn't know how to describe him, because all I could see -was the spot and his hand. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was he slender or was he fat? - -Mr. EUINS. I didn't get to see him. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could you tell from where you looked whether he was tall -or short? - -Mr. EUINS. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Of what race was he, Amos? - -Mr. EUINS. I couldn't tell, because these boxes were throwing a -reflection, shaded. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could you tell whether he was a Negro gentleman or a white -man? - -Mr. EUINS. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Couldn't even tell that? But you have described that he -had a bald---- - -Mr. EUINS. Spot in his head. Yes, sir; I could see the bald spot in his -head. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, could you tell what color hair he had? - -Mr. EUINS. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could you tell whether his hair was dark or light? - -Mr. EUINS. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. How far back did the bald spot on his head go? - -Mr. EUINS. I would say about right along in here. - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating about 2-1/2 inches above where your hairline -is. Is that about what you are saying? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; right along in here. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you get a very good look at that man, Amos? - -Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to tell anything about the clothes he was -wearing? - -Mr. EUINS. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, when you were at the sheriff's department in the -police station that you have described, did they ask you to sign an -affidavit or statement for them, Amos? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a paper, Amos, which I have marked as -Commission Exhibit No. 367. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 367 for -identification.) - -Mr. SPECTER. This is supposed to be a statement which is signed. Let me -first point out to you that it is a copy of it. I ask you if this is a -copy of your signature? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. - -Now, will you take your time, Amos, and read that over, and then I want -to ask you a couple of questions about it. - -Did you have a chance to read it over? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. - -Let me ask you about a couple of specific things here, Amos. - -In the statement you say here that he was a white man. By reading the -statement, does that refresh your memory as to whether he was a white -man or not? - -Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I told the man that I could see a white spot on his -head, but I didn't actually say it was a white man. I said I couldn't -tell. But I saw a white spot in his head. - -Mr. SPECTER. Your best recollection at this moment is you still don't -know whether he was a white man or a Negro? All you can say is that you -saw a white spot on his head? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Then, did you tell the people at the police station that -he was a white man, or did they make a mistake when they wrote that -down here? - -Mr. EUINS. They must have made a mistake, because I told them I could -see a white spot on his head. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, is there anything else in this statement, Amos, which -is different from the way you remember this event, as you are sitting -here right now? - -Amos, did you understand the last question? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you answer it for us? - -Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I don't think there is. - -Mr. SPECTER. I don't understand you, Amos. The question I am trying to -get at it, as you read that statement over now, you have testified or -told us here today what you remember about this assassination? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And I am asking you, when you read that statement over, -is there anything on that statement which you think is wrong, based on -what you remember right now? - -For example, you told us that they were wrong when they wrote down that -you identified him as a white man. Were they wrong about anything else -that they wrote down? - -Mr. EUINS. Not that I can see. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. - -When you looked up and saw this man, Amos, did he have on a hat? - -Mr. EUINS. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any boxes behind him at that time, Amos? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; there were some boxes, you know, all the side of -the window. Like this window--there were some boxes in these windows up -here. - -Mr. SPECTER. You saw some boxes in these windows? - -Mr. EUINS. In these windows, and these windows, and there was boxes in -half of this one. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. - -Now, mark the windows where you saw those boxes, Amos. Start off -with--mark the window "Y" where you saw boxes. - -(Witness marking.) - -Mr. SPECTER. You made a figure 9, as I read it, on the two places you -saw boxes in the windows. - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; in this half. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, were there boxes in the window marked "X"? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. There were about two or three of them right along -here. - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the middle dividing line there? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Was that window marked "X" opened, Amos, or closed? - -Mr. EUINS. It was open. - -Mr. SPECTER. How far open was it? - -Mr. EUINS. About that high. - -Mr. SPECTER. Indicating about 19 inches? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And was the window in the other double window immediately -next to the window marked "X" open or closed? - -Mr. EUINS. The top window, on the sixth floor? - -Mr. SPECTER. I am referring to the window right next to it. - -Mr. EUINS. No, sir; it was not open. - -Mr. SPECTER. Amos, when you heard the first shot, did you have any -reaction or impression as to where the noise was coming from at that -exact time? - -Mr. EUINS. No, sir; not at the exact time. You know, because everybody -else started looking around. So I just started looking around, thinking -it was a backfire, just like everyone else. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you look up towards that window before the second -shot, or just when the second shot occurred? - -Mr. EUINS. I think--just a little before, because as soon as I did, I -looked at it--pow. - -Mr. SPECTER. You heard a pow? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, as you were watching and heard, did you have the -impression that the noise you heard was coming from that rifle? - -Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I didn't, because I wasn't thinking of the rifle at -first--you know, because it looked like a pipe at first. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say the second--when you heard the second shot, -when you say you were looking at the rifle, did you have the feeling -that the noise came from the rifle when you heard the second shot, when -you were looking at it? - -Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, did you have any impression at all about where the -noise was coming from? - -Mr. EUINS. No, sir; not on the first shot. - -Mr. SPECTER. How about the second shot? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you think the noise was coming from on the -second shot? - -Mr. EUINS. I seen him shoot on the second shot. - -Mr. SPECTER. So you thought the noise was coming from the rifle on the -second shot? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Did you say you thought, or saw? - -Mr. EUINS. I saw him shoot the second shot. - -Mr. SPECTER. How high were those boxes behind him, Amos? - -Mr. EUINS. They was probably about 2 feet high stacked in the back of -him. - -Mr. SPECTER. Amos, were you questioned later by the FBI? - -Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; over in the office. - -Mr. SPECTER. How many times were you questioned by the FBI? - -Mr. EUINS. Oh, once. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you remember when that was? - -Mr. EUINS. It was around about 2 or 3 o'clock. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you remember how many days after the assassination it -was? - -Mr. EUINS. About 4. - -Mr. SPECTER. You think they might have talked to you more than once? - -Mr. EUINS. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, I move for the admission into evidence -of the statement marked Commission Exhibit 367. - -The CHAIRMAN. That may be admitted. - -(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission -Exhibit No. 367 was received in evidence.) - -Mr. SPECTER. That concludes the questioning I have, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Wright? - -Mr. WRIGHT. Nothing further, Mr. Chief Justice. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, I would like to move for the admission -into evidence of all the exhibits here--365, 366, as well as 367. - -The CHAIRMAN. Very well. - -(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission -Exhibits Nos. 365 and 366, were received in evidence.) - -The CHAIRMAN. Amos, you may be excused, then. Thank you very much for -coming and helping us out with your testimony. - -We will recess until tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock. - - - - -_Wednesday, March 11, 1964_ - -TESTIMONY OF BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER, LINNIE MAE RANDLE, AND CORTLANDT -CUNNINGHAM - -The President's Commission met at 9:45 a.m. on March 11, 1964, at 200 -Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. - -Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman -Cooper and Representative Gerald R. Ford, members. - -Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Joseph A. Ball, -assistant counsel; David W. Belin, assistant counsel; Albert E. Jenner, -Jr., assistant counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; Norman -Redlich, assistant counsel; Charles Murray and Lewis E. Powell, Jr., -observers. - - -TESTIMONY OF BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER - -The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. - -Mr. BALL. I would like to assign Commission Exhibit No. 364 to a paper -sack which the FBI has identified as their C-109 Exhibit. That will be -the Commission's Exhibit No. 364 for identification at this time. - -The CHAIRMAN. All right. - -(The paper sack referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 364 for -identification.) - -Mr. BALL. Also for the record I would like to announce that prior -to--this morning, Mr. Cortlandt Cunningham and Charles Killion of the -Federal Bureau of Investigation laboratory, the Ballistics Division, -Firearms Division, I guess it is, broke down, that is unscrewed -Commission Exhibit No. 139, an Italian rifle, and that rifle has been -placed in, after being disassembled, has been placed in Commission's -No. 364 for identification, that paper sack. - -The CHAIRMAN. All right. - -Mr. BALL. We have also here before the Commission, Commission No. 142 -which is a paper sack which is identified as the FBI's Exhibit No. 10. -I think that has its number, exhibit number on it. - -I have been informed that was 142. My notes show that the brown paper -sack is 142. - -I think we can call the witness now. - -The CHAIRMAN. All right; would you call Mr. Frazier, please. - -Raise your right hand to be sworn, please. - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this -Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I do. - -The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Joseph Ball of our staff will examine you, Mr. -Frazier, but I would like to read a very short statement concerning the -purpose of the meeting. - -The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Buell Wesley -Frazier, and Linnie Mae Randle. The Commission has been advised that -these two witnesses have stated that they saw Lee Harvey Oswald on the -morning of November 22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask these -witnesses questions concerning their knowledge of the assassination of -President Kennedy. - -You have a copy of this, have you not? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. All right, you may proceed, Mr. Ball. - -Mr. BALL. You call yourself Buell or Wesley? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I go by Wesley. - -Mr. BALL. Well, Wesley, what is your age? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Sir? - -Mr. BALL. What is your age? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Nineteen. - -Mr. BALL. Where do you live? - -Mr. FRAZIER. For the time being I am living in Irving now. - -Mr. BALL. Irving, Tex.? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What is the address where you live? - -Mr. FRAZIER. 2439 West Fifth Street. - -Mr. BALL. Did you live there in November 1963? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. BALL. And who lives in that house with you? - -Mr. FRAZIER. My sister and brother-in-law and their three children. - -Mr. BALL. Will you state their names, your sister's name? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Linnie Mae Randle and my brother-in-law. I believe his -real name is William Edward Randle. We call him Bill. They have three -little girls, Diana, Patricia and Caroline Sue. - -Mr. BALL. Where does your mother live? - -Mr. FRAZIER. She lives in Huntsville. - -Mr. BALL. Where is that? - -Mr. FRAZIER. That is about 200 miles south of Dallas there. - -Mr. BALL. What is the name of the town? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Town, you mean where my mother lives? Huntsville. - -Mr. BALL. Huntsville? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; that is about, it is about 70, 80 miles north of -Houston. - -Mr. BALL. What is your mother's name? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Essie Mae Williams. - -Mr. BALL. Was she visiting you and your sister sometime in November -1963? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; she was. - -Mr. BALL. How long was she there? - -Mr. FRAZIER. She was there for, I believe, for a period of about 4 or 5 -weeks because my stepfather was with her and he got sick and they had -to put him in the hospital and he was in the hospital 3 or 4 weeks, -somewheres, 4 or 5 weeks because they were there a week before he got -sick. - -Mr. BALL. Then on November 21 and 22, living with you in this residence -at Irving, Tex., were your mother, Mrs. Williams, and your sister, -Linnie Mae Randle? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. And her husband and their three children? - -Mr. FRAZIER. That is right. - -Mr. BALL. Where do you work? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Work at Texas School Books. - -Mr. BALL. How long have you worked there? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I have been working there since September. - -Mr. BALL. September of 1963? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Correct. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do there? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I fill orders. - -Mr. BALL. How did you happen to get that job? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I went to see, first I come up there and started -looking for a job and couldn't find one myself so I went to one of -these employment agencies and through that a lady called up one -morning, I was fixing to go out and look for one, I was looking for -myself in the meantime when they were, too, and so she called up and -gave me a tip to it if I was interested in a job like that I could go -over there and see about that and for the time being I wasn't working -and needed some money and so I did and I went over there and saw Mr. -Truly, and he gave me an interview, and then he hired me the same day I -went over there. - -Mr. BALL. You say you came up, you mean you came up from Huntsville? - -Mr. FRAZIER. That is right; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. That was in September 1963? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was. - -Mr. BALL. Looking for a job around Dallas? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go to live with your sister at that time? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. BALL. What--where is the employment agency and what is its name -when you first applied for a job? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I went to several but, see, this one got me this job -the main one was Massey, the employment agency, and it is over there on -Shady Grove Road. - -Mr. BALL. In Dallas? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; in Irving. - -Mr. BALL. How do you spell that name, the name of the employment agency? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Massey? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. FRAZIER. I believe it is M-a-s-s-e-y. - -Mr. BALL. And it was a woman at the employment agency that called you -and told you to go to see the Texas School Book Depository? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, right. - -Mr. BALL. And you went to see Mr. Truly and after an interview he gave -you a job? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Correct. - -Mr. BALL. Then you started work there about what date in September? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It was the 13th. I say that was the same day I went for -an interview. I went early enough that morning that he told me to come -back after lunch. - -Mr. BALL. And you are still working there? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. When Mr. Truly hired you did he tell you it would be a -full-time job or just a temporary job? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he told me that he was looking for somebody full -time and I told him, well, that is what I wanted, and so he said that -would be just fine. - -Mr. BALL. How much did he start to pay you? - -Mr. FRAZIER. He started me off with a dollar and a quarter an hour. - -Mr. BALL. That is for an eight-hour day? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. Five days a week. - -Mr. BALL. Did you commute back and forth from your sister's home in -Irving? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Over there to the Texas School Books? - -Mr. BALL. To the Texas School Book Depository. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. From the first day? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And you still do? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you own a car? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Your own car? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You had it, did you, when you started to work? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Still have it? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And you have been since September driving that car from your -sister's home in Irving over to the Texas School Book Depository? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Correct. - -Mr. BALL. Go there in the morning? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. What time do you get to work? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I get there around 8 o'clock. - -Mr. BALL. When do you quit? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I quit at 4:45. - -Mr. BALL. Then you drive home? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How long for lunch? - -Mr. FRAZIER. 45 minutes. - -Mr. BALL. Do all the employees have the same lunch hour? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Now, the ones who work down there filling book orders -around where I work now, so we all work the same hours. Some people -work up there in the offices, I hear that they come in a little bit -later. Now, I don't know for sure but I see primarily the ones who does -the same type of work I do, we all start the same time and work the -same time. - -Mr. BALL. Those are the people who fill the orders? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. How far is it in miles from your sister's home to Texas -School Book Depository? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It is roughly around 15 miles. - -Mr. BALL. And did you take the same route every day? - -Mr. FRAZIER. You mean since I have been going over there; since the -first day? - -Mr. BALL. That is right. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Up to now? - -Mr. BALL. Yes, right. - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't. - -You see, I found two ways, you can more judge by the traffic and you -can go some days one way and the traffic will be easier than others, -but most times I use just one route. - -Mr. BALL. What route did you usually use? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Used one like you go down from the house there. - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Go down and right Storey Road, see Fifth Street is just -one block off Storey Road, and just go down and hit Storey Road and -stay on it until you come to Stemmons Freeway and you stay right on -Stemmons until you come right on into Dallas there. - -Mr. BALL. About what length of time does it take you to go from your -sister's home to work in the morning? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Usually, I usually leave not any later than 7:25. I -usually try to leave about 7:20, and if you leave at 7:20, you usually -get around there, by the time you get down to the parking lot now it is -usually pretty close to 5 minutes to 8 and that gives you enough time -to walk to the Book Depository, put up your lunch and take off your -coat. - -Mr. BALL. Did you have a place to park your car? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Was it assigned to you by Mr. Truly? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he just said we had a parking lot there and -showed me where it was and said you can park in the parking lot. - -Mr. BALL. Was that the parking lot two or three blocks from the -building. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir, it is down there; right across from the -warehouse there. - -Mr. BALL. Then you would walk from there from that parking lot---- - -Mr. FRAZIER. Up to the other Depository up there at the corner of -Houston and Main. - -Mr. BALL. We have here a map which has been marked as Commission's -Exhibit No. 361. - -Mr. FRAZIER. I see. - -Mr. BALL. And north is to the bottom of the map. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Instead of the top, as usually the case. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. It has two pictures over here, one to the left and one to the -right of the map. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Let's take a look at the picture to the right of the map. Do -you recognize that area? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. BALL. What is it? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I see that is right there where you say that is the street -going up to the parking lot there. - -Mr. BALL. Do you recognize this car? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What car is that? - -Mr. FRAZIER. That is my car. - -Mr. BALL. Is that where you usually park every day? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I would say at the time being when I first started -to work there I first started to park there but now I park on the other -side of the fence there. - -Mr. BALL. But that is a picture of the parking lot, is it? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Where you park is in the parking lot? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. I park inside the fence but what I am talking -about--I park on the different side of the lot. - -Mr. BALL. Different side of the same lot? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; we just have one lot there. - -Mr. BALL. Do you see the Texas School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; right there. - -Mr. BALL. And you walked from about the place where your car is parked? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Usually up to the Depository Building? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right, correct. - -Mr. BALL. Now, the map to the left, upper left-hand corner of the map, -there is a picture. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you see this area where I point my finger which is marked -"parking lot No. 1." - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What is that? - -Mr. FRAZIER. That is the same parking lot we were looking at right here. - -Mr. BALL. What route do you walk, which way do you walk when you park -in this parking lot No. 1, to the Texas School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Do you want me to get up to where I can show it to you? - -Mr. BALL. Yes; show it to us. - -Mr. FRAZIER. I usually always come up, you know, you can come right, -you see the building right down here, and you notice a series of -railroad tracks, so usually early in the morning, now about 8 o'clock -there is usually not any cars right here, but I say they are switching -back and forth. - -Mr. BALL. By "cars" you mean railroad cars? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; they usually start switching around 8 o'clock. -Usually, there are not any cars, it is usually a long train that moves -up pretty soon but I usually move up in this direction here, especially -when it is dry. When it is wet I walk on this because it is harder. But -when it is raining, I usually walk around here, because in this area -right here, when you get up closer to the railroad tracks it has more -trenches, and it gets muddy and slimy and you can get bogged down. - -So, when it is bad weather, I usually walk on this side. But I say nine -times out of ten I come up right down here. - -Mr. BALL. Let's look at the map. Here is the parking lot here, is that -the parking lot where you usually park? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it is. - -Mr. BALL. This is parking lot No. 1. - -Mr. FRAZIER. That is parking lot No. 1, isn't it? - -Mr. BALL. Right. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. We will show you this map later, but just to illustrate, how -do you usually, what is the route you usually take, just show us on -the board here, the route you usually take to the Texas School Book -Depository Building in the morning? - -Mr. FRAZIER. You mean when I am coming off of the freeway? - -Mr. BALL. After you park here. - -Mr. FRAZIER. You know right here, you say like the car, you notice that -little house right there, I assume you have checked off. You know like -I was telling you now. I usually park over in this corner. But at the -time I parked right there. But anyway, there is a little cyclone fence -and this was the series of railroad tracks, I was talking to you about. - -Mr. BALL. That is right. - -Mr. FRAZIER. I usually come down here. - -Mr. BALL. Munger Street? - -Mr. FRAZIER. That is right, and usually cross along the railroad tracks -and come up here. - -Mr. BALL. Houston Street? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Houston runs into it, now they are doing some work across -the tracks and you can't go any further than the tracks, right along -here this line, cyclone, but that type of fence and I usually walk -right up, you know. - -Mr. BALL. To the buildings? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. And enter the rear of the building? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Now, we call it a loading zone out there, dock area. - -Mr. BALL. Fine. - -Did anyone else ride with you in the morning, usually did anyone else -ride with you in the morning from home to work? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Did anybody ride with you from work to home? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't. - -Mr. BALL. When did you first hear of Lee Harvey Oswald, first hear the -name? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I first heard, I never really did know his name, we just -called him Lee around there. But the first time I ever saw him was the -first day he come to work. - -Mr. BALL. Had you heard he was coming to work before he came to work? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I will say, you know, talking back and forth with the -bossman all the time and from being around and getting along real fine -and so he told me, I assume the day after he hired him that he was -going to have him come in on Monday and he asked me had I ever seen him -and I told him then no; I had never seen him. - -(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. BALL. Had your sister told you that this fellow Lee was coming to -work? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; she did. She said one afternoon when I went home she -told me she found out from one of the neighbors there he came over for -that interview with Mr. Truly and Mr. Truly had hired him. - -Mr. BALL. You heard that from your sister? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Before you saw him? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right, before I saw him. - -Mr. BALL. When you first saw him was it a Monday morning? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it was. - -Mr. BALL. Do you have any idea of the date itself, do you have any -memory of the date when you first saw him? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. BALL. Was it sometime around the middle of October, do you think, -would that be close to it? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It could have been because it was sometime in October -because I remember I went to work there on the 13th and I had been -working there, 4 or 5 weeks and then he come there. - -Mr. BALL. Where was he when you first saw him? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I first saw him he was--we have a table not as large as -this, but just about half as large as this, and we have just like you -walk up to it where I am sitting over here and we have four or five -boxes there and we have different names on it, you know, for different -publishing companies, and he was there getting some orders, and I say, -as well as I remember, I said, the foreman there was getting him out -some real easy orders. Some of the orders we have are real easy to -fill, easier than the others, you don't have to know so much about the -textbooks to be able to fill them and he was getting some of them easy -ones out to start on, when we have a great number of them, you see, the -little pamphlet type books and all we do is count them out and read the -invoice number. - -Mr. BALL. What was the name of the foreman showing him? - -Mr. FRAZIER. You mean the foreman, that was Mr. Shelly. - -Mr. BALL. S-h-e-d? - -Mr. FRAZIER. S-h-e-l-l-y. - -Mr. BALL. Shelly. - -What floor was this on? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It was on the first floor there. - -Mr. BALL. Did Shelly introduce you to him or did you go up and shake -hands with him? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. I remember, I knew, you know that he -was going to be coming to work so naturally I hadn't been there very -long, you know, living in Dallas and so I wanted to make friends with -everybody I could, because you know yourself friendship is something -you can't buy with money and you always need friends, so I went up and -introduced himself to myself, and he told me his name was Lee and I -said "We are glad to have you." - -We got talking back and forth and he come to find out I knew his wife -was staying down there at the time with this other woman and so I -thought he would go out there and I said, "Are you going to be going -home this afternoon?" - -And he told me then, he told me that he didn't have a car, you know, -and so I told him, I said, "Well, I live out there in Irving,"--I found -out he lived out there and so I said, "Any time you want to go just let -me know." - -So I thought he would go home every day like most men do but he told me -no, that he wouldn't go home every day and then he asked me could he -ride home say like Friday afternoon on weekends and come back on Monday -morning and I told him that would be just fine with me. - -I told him if he wanted a ride any other time just let me know before -I go off and leave him because when it comes to quitting time some of -these guys, you know, some of them mess around the bathroom and some of -them quit early and some of them like that and some leave at different -times than others. - -But I said from talking to him then, I say, he just wanted to ride home -on weekends with me and I said that was fine. - -Mr. BALL. Did he say at that time he was living in Dallas, he had a -room in Dallas? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he did. He had an apartment. - -Mr. BALL. Did he say where? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. He just said he had an apartment over -in Dallas. - -Mr. BALL. Had you known his wife before that? Had you ever met his -wife, Marina Oswald? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never had. - -Mr. BALL. Had you heard that a Russian girl was staying there in the -neighborhood? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say about this time I met him, you know, I knew -that at the time then but I didn't think anything about it because, you -know, the people travel from one country to the next all the time. - -Mr. BALL. Did you know Mrs. Paine, Ruth Paine? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't until all this had happened because I -will be frank with you, people around there, I say, they just don't -make friends very easy. I say you can have somebody living three doors -from you and you can live a couple of years and you still might not -know the name. - -Mr. BALL. And you had never met Mrs. Ruth Paine before the day you met -Lee Oswald? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of work did Lee do, what kind of work was assigned -to him? - -Mr. FRAZIER. He filled orders like I do and several other men. - -Mr. BALL. How many order fillers were there employed at that time? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, I would say roughly around five, six at that time. -Because about the time we was real busy, the busy season. I come there, -you know, and they was going pretty good when I went to work there and -I say we were still going pretty good when he come to work there. - -We had a lot of work to do and usually when we have a lot of work to do -we have more order fillers. - -Mr. BALL. Did he ride home with you in your car on weekends? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he did. - -Mr. BALL. On Friday nights. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. From that time until November 22, did he ride home with you -every weekend? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he did every weekend but one. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember that date? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. BALL. In the statement you made I believe you said it was the 16th -and 17th of November. I am just reminding you of that. - -Does it refresh your memory any? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I remember one weekend, I say, right now I can't recall -because just to be frank with you I couldn't tell you roughly; I say I -might have at that time but I say it slipped my mind but the thing is I -do know he rode home with me every weekend up to that but one. - -Mr. BALL. And why did--did he tell you why he wasn't going to ride home -that weekend? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, he did. He said he was working on his driving license -and he was going to go take a driving test. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever ask him afterward if he had taken his driver's -test? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never did. I assumed that he had taken it and -passed it what part of the test he was taking. - -Most men do, I say, they usually work at it, study at it good enough so -they don't flunk out. - -Representative FORD. Do you have to get a learner's permit in Texas -before you can get a driver's permit? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I say, you don't. Just two steps to it. I say, -first no matter what age you are; say, when you have to be at least 14 -is about the youngest you can get it in Texas and then you have to take -a DE, Driver's Education, if you are going to school but otherwise, -the age is 16 and you just go around to the driving license bureau -there, they have an office in most any town of any size in Texas, and -you just go in and see the driving license man and just tell him that -you plan to take your driving test and you would like to have the auto -manual, and the manual covers any laws and so forth in the State of -Texas, and you can either study for your operator's or your commercial -and you pick out which one you want, and you study up for it and then -he is there, he tells you what days he is in his office, and so he goes -there a certain time and he gives you several sheets of paper, a quiz -and you answer them questions, and if you--you have to make a grade of -70 on it to pass and if you make a grade of 70 or above, well, I say, -in another week or two you go down there and you say like for instance -if you are going to want a driver's license for a car---- - -Representative FORD. Did Lee ever ask you or did Lee ever tell you -whether he had ever actually applied for a driver's license? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he never had, except I told you that weekend that -he said he was going down to take his driving test, and so I knew from -being in the State of Texas that you have to know something; you have -to have the manuals and so forth to study up on it. Or there isn't any -use going down there if you don't know the rules because you are not -wasting any time but your own. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not one weekend that he didn't -go down with you but he rode back with you, say, on the Armistice Day -holiday? Do you remember? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. BALL. Your memory is that he went, he rode home with you every -Friday and came back the following Monday? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Except this one weekend? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right, that is what I say. If he went home with me on -Friday afternoon he always rode back with me on Monday morning. It -wasn't no added job when he would come with me on the weekend. He would -ride home with me on Friday and he would come back with me on Monday. - -Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you that he had or had not applied for a -driver's license? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No; he had not except he told me he was going down to take -it. - -Mr. BALL. He never told you that he had or had not? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No. - -Mr. BALL. And he never told you whether he had obtained a driver's -license? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to him on whether or not he could drive a -car, knew how to drive a car? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, I believe the first afternoon, the first time -we was going home and we were talking about that and he said he was -working on his driving license then, and then naturally like I told you -several weeks later, then he told me he was going to take his driving -test and I assumed he could drive a car being as old as he was because -most everybody in the State of Texas by the time you are my age if you -can't drive a car something is wrong with you. - -Mr. BALL. He did never say whether he could or couldn't? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Did he ever ask you about the parts of a car? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe he did. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember any conversation when he asked you what the -clutch was? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes. We got talking about that. He noticed, you know, -most cars as old as mine, you know most of them are standard shift, -and when I bought this old car it kind of fooled me it had automatic -transmission on it so we got talking about it on the way home driving -home and I told him that I really prefer a standard because you know, -they are a lot easier to work on and you know, when an automatic goes -dead it goes dead, there is no rolling a couple of feet and jumping on -the clutch and starting when the battery is down. - -And I remember he said it was a little bit different to drive with a -clutch. I said, if you are not used to it, but if you get used to it. -You have to find a friction point on any car, even on Chevrolet or -Ford, you know yourself the friction points on a clutch and the brakes -are different adjusted on every car you drive. - -And I told you there is nothing you do. You just have to get used to -a car of the individual, you can drive one car to do it, and you can -drive another one it may take you a couple of days to get used to it. - -Mr. BALL. He is the one who mentioned the clutch, is he, that you -didn't have a clutch? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -I guess he noticed that I didn't have a clutch. - -Mr. BALL. I see. - -Did he pay for any part of the trip, buy your gasoline? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. I never did ask him. Because like I -said I drove over there anyway and it doesn't take any more to drive -one guy than it does to drive a carload. - -Mr. BALL. Did he offer to pay any time? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he never did. - -Mr. BALL. At any time coming back after a weekend did you ever stop at -a restaurant for breakfast? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; we never did. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever stop on the way home on Friday night and buy -anything? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; stopped one time and bought some gas, I remember. - -Mr. BALL. Did he pay for it? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Did he offer to? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him have any money in his possession, bills, -change? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never did see him out playing around with any -money. - -Mr. BALL. On the way back and forth did you talk very much to each -other? - -Mr. FRAZIER. N,. sir; not very much. He is, probably in your line of -business you have probably seen a lot of guys who talk a lot and some -don't and he was one of these types that just didn't talk. And I have -seen, you know, I am not very old but I have seen a lot of guys in my -time, just going to school, different boys and girls, some talk a lot -and some don't, so I didn't think anything strange about that. - -About the only time you could get anything out of the talking was about -babies, you know, he had one and he was expecting another, that was -one way he had him get that job because his wife was pregnant and I -would always get something out of it when I asked him about the babies -because it seemed he was very fond of children because when I asked -him he chuckled and told me about what he was doing about the babies -over the weekend and sometimes we would talk about the weather, and -sometimes he would go to work and it would be cloudy in the morning and -it would come out that afternoon after work, sometimes during the day -and it would turn to be just one of the prettiest days you would want -anywhere, and he would say some comment about that, but not very much. - -He would say a few words and then he would cut off. - -Mr. BALL. Did he tell you he had been to Russia, say anything about -that? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, we were talking about one time talking about -the service, and so I asked him had he ever been overseas and he said -he had, and I asked him had he ever been to Germany and he said he had -been through there. - -So, most times when boys are in the service in the United States they -either go to Japan or, I say, they either go over there or you know, go -to some of these, say, like Germany or France somewhere like that. - -And so other than that he told me that he had been through there. - -Mr. BALL. Did he say he had been to Russia? - -Mr. FRAZIER. He said, you know, like I say, he said he had been over -there and he said he had been there so I thought when he told me, yes; -he had, so I thought maybe, you know, by being, I know he told me had -been in service and I thought maybe that is how he got in. - -Mr. BALL. In other words, your answer is yes; he did tell you he had -been in Russia? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Did he go into detail and tell you how he got there and what -he did there? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, he didn't. I, to be frank with you I, was more -interested about France and Germany and I asked him about them towns -and he told me he liked France, I mean he said not that he didn't like -France, he said people in France was more the kind to con the United -States boys out of their money and he was in Germany there 2 or 3 days -and he said he liked Germany better than France because that is one -reason. Because he said if you didn't really know how to count that -French money them French guys would really take you. - -Mr. BALL. Did he say anything about being in the Marines? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; he told me he was a Marine. - -Mr. BALL. That he had been to Japan? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't say he had been to Japan. - -Mr. BALL. Ever talk about politics? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Ever mention any subjects like, political parties, the -Democrats, Republicans? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Ever mention anything about Communists, Marxists or any words -like that did he use? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did he tell you where he met his wife? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Did he ever talk much about his wife? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. I say, like I said, he was just a guy -who didn't talk very much at all. - -Mr. BALL. At the Texas School Book Depository, you have lunch, -45-minute lunch hour, don't you? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Did you pack your lunch from home? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir, I always took lunch. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not when Oswald came back with you -on any Monday morning or any weekend did he pack his lunch? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he did. - -Mr. BALL. He did? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. When he rode with me, I say he always brought -lunch except that one day on November 22 he didn't bring his lunch that -day. - -Mr. BALL. But every other day he brought a lunch? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right, when he rode with me. - -Mr. BALL. Would he bring it in a paper sack or what kind of a container? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; like a little paper sack you get out of a -grocery store, you have seen these little old sacks that you could buy, -sandwich bag, sack. - -Mr. BALL. Did you carry your lunch in a paper sack? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. BALL. There is a lunch room in the Texas School Book Depository? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Is that on the first floor? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; on the second floor. - -Mr. BALL. There is some kind of a recreation room on the first floor? - -Mr. FRAZIER. There is a little domino room there where some of the guys -go in and play dominoes. - -Mr. BALL. But the lunch room is on the second floor? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Do they sell any food there? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they don't. About all they sell in the lunch room -is different types of soft drinks and then near the window, the men who -work in the offices there they have coffee there, you can drink coffee -up there, I never did. Then you have an assortment of cookies and -candies and peanuts and so forth on the machine there. That is about -all they have. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not Oswald packed his lunch, -brought his lunch on other days, the days that he didn't ride with you? - -Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, I don't know whether he brought his -lunch because I will tell you one way, some guys bring their lunch -there and some guys buy it there because we have a caterer service, you -see, comes around about 10 o'clock the man comes around and several -of the boys they go out there and buy their lunch from the catering -service. - -Mr. BALL. Then later on at 11:45? - -Mr. FRAZIER. 12 o'clock is when we always eat lunch. - -Mr. BALL. 12 to 12:45? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. When you get off your job, did you usually go to the lunch -room on the second floor to eat your lunch? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; most of the time I don't. Most of the time you -see several of us guys sitting down at our own table and we just sit -there. I say we usually go up there to get something to drink and I say -I have ate up there several times but most of the times I eat with the -guys I work with. - -Usually we just sit down and eat, and we lay down on the big tables -there and sometimes talk or go to sleep. - -Mr. BALL. That is on the first floor? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Did you notice where Oswald had his lunch usually? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't. - -Now, I say we have a refrigerator there, some of the boys put their -lunches in there. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever eat lunch with Oswald? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never have. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him eating lunch? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never have seen him eat lunch. I have seen him -go to the Doctor Pepper machine by the refrigerator and get a Doctor -Pepper but I never have seen him, you might say, sit right down and eat -his lunch. - -Mr. BALL. In driving back and forth with Oswald did you ever hear -him--did he ever talk about guns? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he never did. - -Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you he owned a gun? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did Oswald ever say anything to you about buying an -automobile in any of these trips? - -Mr. FRAZIER. One time we were talking about it, he said he thought he -would just buy him an old car, you know, like mine. I say most models -like that you can get them pretty cheap and as far as going back and -forth for work that is about all they are good for. - -I said, "You don't need a new car to be used for going back and forth. -You don't need it unless you drive a good-sized distance." - -But that is what he said in the long run he planned to buy one but so -far as I know he never did. - -Mr. BALL. Did he say that once or more than once? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; just one time. - -Mr. BALL. When he said he would get an old car? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you he had gone to an old car dealer? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you he had tried out a car? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. So far as I--like I say, that one time, that -is as far as I can ever recall that we even talked much about -anything--about cars--except a while ago he asked me--we were talking -about the clutch and automatic transmission and so forth. - -Mr. BALL. There is a bus service between Dallas and Irving? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; there is. - -Mr. BALL. Can you get the bus anywhere near the Texas School Book -Depository? - -Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you I will say I have never ridden the -bus from Irving over there, but I assume you can get off there just -like any other bus at any street corner you want to. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know what the fare is? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. BALL. Is there a toll charge to call from Dallas to Irving? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it is not. - -Mr. BALL. For 10 cents you can call there, can you? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say just for your regular telephone bill, you just -pick it up and call. - -Mr. BALL. I see. - -Now, there was the one date that Oswald came to you and asked you to -drive him back to Irving, it was not a Friday, was it? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it wasn't. - -Mr. BALL. It was on a Thursday. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Was that the 21st of November? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Well, tell us about that. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, we were standing like I said at the -four-headed table about half as large as this, not, quite half as -large, but anyway I was standing there getting the orders in and he -said, "Could I ride home with you this afternoon?" - -And I said, "Sure. You know, like I told you, you can go home with me -any time you want to, like I say anytime you want to go see your wife -that is all right with me." - -So automatically I knew it wasn't Friday, I come to think it wasn't -Friday and I said, "Why are you going home today?" - -And he says, "I am going home to get some curtain rods." He said, "You -know, put in an apartment." - -He wanted to hang up some curtains and I said, "Very well." And I never -thought more about it and I had some invoices in my hands for some -orders and I walked on off and started filling the orders. - -Mr. BALL. This was on what floor? - -Mr. FRAZIER. This was on the first floor. - -Mr. BALL. About what time in the morning? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I would say sometime between eight and ten, because I go -to work at eight and I would break at ten. - -Mr. BALL. Was it at the break time or before? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It was before the break. - -Mr. BALL. It was before noon then? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see him at the noon hour? - -Mr. FRAZIER. That day? - -Mr. BALL. That day. - -Mr. FRAZIER. I don't recall, to be frank with you. You know, I will -just be frank with you, I say just like after a guy works there for -a while and he comes by and he walks by you, you don't pay so much -attention but say like somebody else comes in there strange, you -automatically just look at them. - -Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him again until quitting time? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, to be frank with you, like I said, the only -time--you know, like I say, he didn't talk very much and about the -only time--other than like I told you about talking about them babies -and about the weather sometimes he would ask me some questions about a -book because down there, I say, if you have ever been acquainted with -books a lot of times maybe just a little bit of difference in a title -or something like that would make the difference in what type of book -they want and sometimes maybe they will forget to put that on there and -you look at the price. - -If you can tell the price, some editions we have a paperback and some -we have hard bound and the price can automatically tell you which one -they want, and sometimes he would ask me something like that which -book do they want and I would tell him and that was about the only -conversation we had. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't talk any more with him that day concerning the -ride home? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. But you did go home with him? - -Mr. FRAZIER. That is he rode home with me. - -Mr. BALL. What time did you get off from work? - -Mr. FRAZIER. 4:40. - -Mr. BALL. What time did you get to Irving? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, usually get there, if you make good time, get there -maybe around 5:20 or 5:25. But if you catch the traffic and catch the -train crossing the tracks, it is usually about 5:30 or 5:35, it is just -according to how bad the traffic is. - -If you get ahead of it before it starts coming out, you can make pretty -good headway. - -Mr. BALL. Did you make any stop in the car before you got home? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe we did. - -Mr. BALL. Did the two of you walk together down to the parking lot? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; we did. - -Mr. BALL. And you dropped him off at the place where his wife was -staying, did you? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I believe I did. I, to be frank with you I, say -sometimes he rode home with me, sometimes--a little store not too far -from the house, there and if I was going to the store I would just -drop him off by the house, but if I wasn't going to the store he would -usually go on to the corner near the house and walk the rest of the way -to the house up to where his wife was staying just about a half a block -from my house up to where he was, his wife was staying, so he would -walk there just a little bit. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember if you talked to him any on the walk down two -or three blocks down to the parking lot, anything said that you can -remember? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe so. - -Mr. BALL. When you got in the car and went home do you remember if you -said anything, if you said anything to him, or if he said anything to -you? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe he did. Like I said, he didn't -talk very much. About the only time we would talk was about the weather -and babies, something like that. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember this day whether or not you let him walk to -the house where his wife was staying? - -Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, I can't remember positively whether -I let him off at the house or whether he got out there where I lived, -just to be frank with you. - -Mr. BALL. You know where the house is, don't you? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where Mrs. Paine lives? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. How far is that from your house? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Like I say, it is just about half a block up the street. - -Mr. BALL. It is on the same street, is it? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, we lived at the corner of Westbrook and Fifth -Street, and Fifth Street runs on up, you know, and I say they live on -Fifth Street. - -Mr. BALL. What direction does Fifth run, east, west, north or south? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It runs east and west. - -Mr. BALL. East and west. And you live on the corner of Westbrook and -Fifth? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. And Paine's house is east or west of your house? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It is west. - -Mr. BALL. It is west of of your house? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. About a half block? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. On the same street. Fifth Street? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. What side of the street do you live on, the north side or -south side of Fifth Street? - -Mr. FRAZIER. North side. - -Mr. BALL. What side of the street do the Paine's live on, the north or -south side of Fifth Street? - -Mr. FRAZIER. North. - -Mr. BALL. You both live on the north side? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. So to walk from Paine's house to your house you walk east -along the north side of Fifth Street across Westbrook, is that right? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Now, from the corner of Westbrook and Fifth you walk west -on the same side of the street on the north side. - -Mr. BALL. On the north side? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. From your house to Paine's? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right, you walk west. - -Mr. BALL. And from Paine's house to yours. OK. - -Now, did you see Oswald any that night, the Thursday night---- - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. You brought him home. - -Next morning what time did you get up? What time did you get up the -next morning? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I believe I got up around 6:30, that is the time I usually -get up, right around 6:30 there. - -Mr. BALL. Always eat your breakfast before you go to work? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember the night before, that is after you got home -that night, that your sister asked you how it happened that Oswald came -home with you? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I believe she did or something. We got to talking -about something and said, I told her that he had rode home with me -and told her he said he was going to come home and pick up some -curtain rods or something. I usually don't talk too much to my sister, -sometimes she is not there when I am in because she is either at the -store or something like that and I am either when she comes in as I say -I am playing with the little nieces and we don't talk too much about -work or something like that. - -Mr. BALL. This night, this evening, do you remember you did talk to her -about the fact that Oswald had come home with you? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I believe I did. - -Mr. BALL. Did you tell her what he had told you? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. I believe she said why did he come home now and -I said, well, he says he was going to get some curtain rods. - -Mr. BALL. The next morning you had breakfast about what time? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Between 7 and 7:15, that is the time I usually, I usually -come to the breakfast table about 7. - -Mr. BALL. Breakfast table in the kitchen? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it is in the den. - -Mr. BALL. And the kitchen windows look out on what street, Westbrook or -Fifth? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Westbrook. - -Mr. BALL. They look onto Westbrook? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. There is a back door, is there, to the kitchen? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; there is. I say when we come in there we have a -double carport more or less type of garage. - -Mr. BALL. Is that on Westbrook? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; the entrance to the garage there, more or less -carport; yes, the entrance is from Westbrook. - -Mr. BALL. As you were having breakfast did your mother say anything to -you about---- - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say---- - -Mr. BALL. Oswald? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I was sitting there eating my breakfast there, so sitting -there, I usually talk to my little nieces, you know, they have them -cartoons on for a while and we usually talk a little bit back and forth -while eating breakfast and I was just finishing my coffee there and -my sister, you know, was working over there around, you know the sink -there, and she was fixing my lunch so she was somewhere around there -over on the cabinets fixing the cabinets and mother just happened to -glance up and saw this man, you know, who was Lee looking in the window -for me and she said, "Who is that?" - -And I said, "That is Lee," and naturally he just walked around and so I -thought he just walked around there on the carport right there close to -the door and so I told her I had to go, so I went in there and brushed -my teeth right quick and come through there and I usually have my coat -laying somewhere on the chair and picked it up and put it on and by -that time my sister had my lunch, you know, in a sack and sitting over -there on the washer where I picked it up right there by the door and I -just walked on out and we got in the car. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did your sister say anything as you were having -breakfast? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No; she didn't say anything to me at all. - -Mr. BALL. She didn't say anything to you either about Oswald or did she? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; say, she didn't say, you know, when I looked up -and saw him I knew who it was. - -Mr. BALL. You saw him? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. What was he doing? - -Mr. FRAZIER. He just looked through the kitchen window. To see from -there on the ground outside there. I say you don't have to be any -height at all, you don't have to be too tall to be able to look in the -kitchen window there. - -I say, if you have the window open you can see in, if you have light on -in there. - -Mr. BALL. When your mother mentioned, "Who is that," you looked up and -saw Lee Oswald in the kitchen window? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I just saw him for a split second and when he saw I saw -him, I guess he heard me say, "Well, it is time to go," and he walked -down by the back door there. - -Representative FORD. When he would go with you on Monday, on any -Monday, was this the same procedure for getting to, getting in contact -with you? - -Mr. FRAZIER. You mean coming in there and looking through the window? - -Representative FORD. Yes. - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it wasn't. I say, that is the first time he had -ever done that. I say, most times I would usually call him, you know, -I was already out in the car fixing to go out the driveway there, and, -you know, around to pick him up if he hadn't come down but most times, -once in a while I picked him up at the house and another time he was -already coming down the sidewalk to the house when I was fixing to pick -him up and I usually picked him up around the corner there. - -Representative FORD. Did this different method of him meeting you raise -any questions in your mind? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it didn't. I just thought maybe, you know, he -just left a little bit earlier but when I looked up and saw that the -clock was, I knew I was the one who was running a little bit late -because, as I say, I was talking, sitting there eating breakfast and -talking to the little nieces, it was later than I thought it was. - -Mr. BALL. When you went out the back door where was Oswald? - -Mr. FRAZIER. He was standing just a few feet there outside the back -door there. - -Mr. BALL. He wasn't in the car? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he wasn't. - -Mr. BALL. Was he near the car? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he wasn't. - -You see, always I keep my car parked outside the carport there, on the -other side. - -Mr. BALL. He was just a few feet outside your back door when you came -out? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Did you walk together to the car? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; we did. - -Mr. BALL. And you got in one side and he got in the other? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. Right in front there. - -Mr. BALL. Did you say usually you had to go by and pick him up? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I said I had a couple of times. Most of the time, -you know, he was usually walking down the sidewalk as I was driving -out of the driveway so, therefore, I didn't have to go up to the house -there to pick him up. I just usually picked him up around the corner -because he was usually on the sidewalk and I just stopped and picked -him up. - -Mr. BALL. Were you later than usual that morning? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe we were, because we got to work -on time. I say, when I looked at the clock, after I glanced he was -there a split second and I just turned around and looked at the clock -to see what time it was and it was right around 7:21 then and I went in -and brushed my teeth real quick and running through the house put my -coat on and we left. - -Mr. BALL. You both got in the car about the same time? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. All right. - -When you got in the car did you say anything to him or did he say -anything to you? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Let's see, when I got in the car I have a kind of habit -of glancing over my shoulder and so at that time I noticed there was a -package laying on the back seat, I didn't pay too much attention and I -said, "What's the package, Lee?" - -And he said, "Curtain rods," and I said, "Oh, yes, you told me you was -going to bring some today." - -That is the reason, the main reason he was going over there that -Thursday afternoon when he was to bring back some curtain rods, so I -didn't think any more about it when he told me that. - -Mr. BALL. What did the package look like? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I will be frank with you, I would just, it is -right as you get out of the grocery store, just more or less out of a -package, you have seen some of these brown paper sacks you can obtain -from any, most of the stores, some varieties, but it was a package just -roughly about two feet long. - -Mr. BALL. It was, what part of the back seat was it in? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It was in his side over on his side in the far back. - -Mr. BALL. How much of that back seat, how much space did it take up? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I would say roughly around 2 feet of the seat. - -Mr. BALL. From the side of the seat over to the center, is that the way -you would measure it? - -Mr. FRAZIER. If, if you were going to measure it that way from the end -of the seat over toward the center, right. But I say like I said I just -roughly estimate and that would be around two feet, give and take a few -inches. - -Mr. BALL. How wide was the package? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I would say the package was about that wide. - -Mr. BALL. How wide would you say that would be? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, say, around 5 inches, something like that. 5, 6 inches -or there. I don't---- - -Mr. BALL. The paper, was the color of the paper, that you would get in -a grocery store, is that it, a bag in a grocery store? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. You have seen, not a real light color but you know -normally, the normal color about the same color, you have seen these -kinds of heavy duty bags you know like you obtain from the grocery -store, something like that, about the same color of that, paper sack -you get there. - -Mr. BALL. Was there anything more said about the paper sack on the way -into town? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; there wasn't. - -Mr. BALL. What route did you take into town that day? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Went down--you know, I told you I had two routes; that day -I went down, you know, Fifth Street runs into Sixth after you cross -the Storey Road there, so I just went on down Sixth until I come to -O'Connor, and then took a left on O'Connor and it takes you right on -out to Stemmons and from there I went right on into Stemmons and come -up Commerce, and you go up Commerce, there until you hit Record Street, -that is one block over from Houston and then I went down until I hit -McKinney and then it goes right down to the warehouse and then take a -left and you go right around to the parking lot. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't stop any place on your way in? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Park in the parking lot? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you park in the parking lot this time? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I parked in the same place the picture I showed you there. - -Mr. BALL. As shown in the picture. That is Exhibit No. 361. - -Anything else said about curtain rods? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; there wasn't. - -Mr. BALL. Anything else said about the package? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; there wasn't. - -Mr. BALL. Who got out of the car first? - -Mr. FRAZIER. He did. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember any conversation on the way in about anything? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I asked him did he have fun playing with them -babies and he chuckled and said he did. And so that morning I said just -a few minutes after we started you know it was a cloudy day and it -started misting and rain and by the time we got out on the Freeway I -said, you know, how those trucks throw that grime on the windshield and -finally it was getting pretty thick on there with spots of rain, and -I turned on the windshield wiper and you know how grime spatters your -windshield and I said, "I wish it would rain or just quit altogether, I -wish it would do something to clear off the windshield," and the drops -started getting larger so eventually it cleaned off the windshield and -by the time I got down to Dallas there I just turned off the windshield. - -Just a few clouds, and rained a little bit to get out of it. But other -than that just saying the weather was messy, that is about all. - -Mr. BALL. Was it foggy? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; not in too particular. I say in other words, just -old cloudy, dull looking day and like I say fine mist of rain and after -we got a little bit further we got into larger drops. - -Mr. BALL. Was there anything said about the President coming to Dallas -that day? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it wasn't. - -Mr. BALL. Did he say anything about that the day before? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever have any conversation with him with reference to -the President's visit to Texas? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. When you got to the parking lot who got out of the car first? - -Mr. FRAZIER. He did. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't get out immediately then? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I was sitting there, say, looked at my watch and -somewhere around 7 or 8 minutes until and I saw we had a few minutes -and I sat there, and as I say you can see the Freeway, Stemmons -Freeway, from the warehouse and also the trains coming back and forth -and I was sitting there. - -What I was doing--glanced up and watching cars for a minute but I was -letting my engine run and getting to charge up my battery, because when -you stop and start you have to charge up your battery. - -Mr. BALL. Did you have your lunch beside you? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. BALL. Did you notice whether or not Lee had a package that looked -like a lunch package that morning? - -Mr. FRAZIER. You know like I told you earlier. I say, he didn't take -his lunch because I remember right when I got in the car I asked him -where was his lunch and he said he was going to buy his lunch that day. - -Mr. BALL. He told you that that day, did he? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. That is right. So, I assumed he was going to buy -it, you know, from that catering service man like a lot of the boys do. -They don't bring their lunch but they go out and buy their lunch there. - -Mr. BALL. What did he do about the package in the back seat when he got -out of the car? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Like I say, I was watching the gages and watched the car -for a few minutes before I cut it off. - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. FRAZIER. He got out of the car and he was wearing the jacket that -has the big sleeves in them and he put the package that he had, you -know, that he told me was curtain rods up under his arm, you know, and -so he walked down behind the car and standing over there at the end of -the cyclone fence waiting for me to get out of the car, and so quick as -I cut the engine off and started out of the car, shut the door just as -I was starting out just like getting out of the car, he started walking -off and so I followed him in. - -So, eventually there he kept getting a little further ahead of me and -I noticed we had plenty of time to get there because it is not too far -from the Depository and usually I walk around and watch them switching -the trains because you have to watch where you are going if you have to -cross the tracks. - -One day you go across one track and maybe there would be some cars -sitting there and there would be another diesel coming there, so you -have to watch when you cross the tracks, I just walked along and I just -like to watch them switch the cars, so eventually he kept getting a -little further ahead of me and by that time we got down there pretty -close to the Depository Building there, I say, he would be as much as, -I would say, roughly 50 feet in front of me but I didn't try to catch -up with him because I knew I had plenty of time so I just took my time -walking up there. - -Mr. BALL. Did you usually walk up there together. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; we did. - -Mr. BALL. Is this the first time that he had ever walked ahead of you? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he did. - -Mr. BALL. You say he had the package under his arm when you saw him? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You mean one end of it under the armpit? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he had it up just like you stick it right under -your arm like that. - -Mr. BALL. And he had the lower part---- - -Mr. FRAZIER. The other part with his right hand. - -Mr. BALL. Right hand? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. He carried it then parallel to his body? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right, straight up and down. - -Representative FORD. Under his right arm? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did it look to you as if there was something heavy in the -package? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I will be frank with you, I didn't pay much -attention to the package because like I say before and after he told me -that it was curtain rods and I didn't pay any attention to it, and he -never had lied to me before so I never did have any reason to doubt his -word. - -Mr. BALL. Did it appear to you there was some, more than just paper he -was carrying, some kind of a weight he was carrying? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, yes, sir; I say, because one reason I know that -because I worked in a department store before and I had uncrated -curtain rods when they come in, and I know if you have seen when they -come straight from the factory you know how they can bundle them up and -put them in there pretty compact, so he told me it was curtain rods so -I didn't think any more about the package whatsoever. - -Mr. BALL. Well, from the way he carried it, the way he walked, did it -appear he was carrying something that had more than the weight of a -paper? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, you know like I say, I didn't pay much -attention to the package other than I knew he had it under his arm and -I didn't pay too much attention the way he was walking because I was -walking along there looking at the railroad cars and watching the men -on the diesel switch them cars and I didn't pay too much attention on -how he carried the package at all. - -Mr. BALL. I will show you this picture again, this map, which is the -Commission's Exhibit No. 361, and would you show us the way he walked, -the course he walked from the place your car was parked up to the Texas -School Book Depository. You come around here and here is a black pen. -Show us the course that he walked. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Like I say, I had that car parked. - -Mr. BALL. Put an "X" there which will represent your car. - -Mr. FRAZIER. All right (indicating). - -Mr. BALL. That is where your car was parked? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I would say roughly like in there, you know like the -picture shows right in there. - -Mr. BALL. Now, draw a line to show the way that he walked. - -Mr. FRAZIER. O.K. - -Mr. BALL. The direction he walked. - -Mr. FRAZIER. All right. - -Like I say, he was standing right about there when I got out of the -car so naturally he started off walking so we just come on right on -just like you would come across these tracks right here, and he was -coming right on along the fence like that. Just coming right on, right -here now is the School Book Depository, right, so he was coming right -on down this fence there and he was coming across these tracks, and -standing right in here somewhere at the door. - -Mr. BALL. Door? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. At the end of that put a "XY", so "X" to "XY" will represent -the course he walked. It shows "XY". - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Then "X" to "XY" is the course he took, is that right? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go in the same door? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. BALL. You walked the same direction? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Now when he went in the door you were about 50 feet behind -him? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. The last time I saw him I was right in this area -coming across these railroad tracks and I just happened to glance up -and see him going through the door there and shut the door. - -Mr. BALL. Let's see, the last time you saw him he was at the door? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Which is at "XY" and you were crossing the railroad tracks on -Pacific Avenue? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I say this is Houston. - -Mr. BALL. Pacific runs east and west? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Put a mark there, put a "Z" there as to your location. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right in there. - -Mr. BALL. That is about where you were, a "Z" when he entered the door -at "XY"? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you went on in the Building, did you, afterwards? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. I went on in. - -Mr. BALL. Well, the first floor of the Texas School Book Depository is -fairly clear, isn't it, it is clear of partitions? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Pretty well. I will say we have bins after you get so far. - -Mr. BALL. Toward the middle of the floor you have bins? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see Lee as you walked in the door? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Here is Commission 362 which we will show you. I will put it -up high so everyone can see it. There is a picture in the lower left -corner which is marked "Exterior View of Entrance Door from Houston -Street Loading Dock." - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Is that the door? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. That is the door that Lee entered? - -Mr. FRAZIER. That is right. - -Mr. BALL. And that is also the door that you entered, is that correct? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And over to the right here is the interior view of entrance -door. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. That is the same door, isn't it? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Now, this door, you see right there is that door right -there. - -Mr. BALL. In other words, the door in the lower left-hand corner is the -outside door? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. And as you walk through--and this is the door, the outside -door, is shown in the picture on the lower right-hand corner? - -Mr. FRAZIER. That is right, right there, that is this same door you are -looking at over here. - -Mr. BALL. Then there is an interior door? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Leading into the interior that is also shown there? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. That is sort of, what is it--a little corridor that you walk -through? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I say it is just about that distance from here over to -that man over there. - -Mr. BALL. Let's take a look there. - -Mr. FRAZIER. It is called the loading zone there. - -Mr. BALL. This map shows certain steps up, doesn't it? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Where is the door that you entered or that he entered. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right here. - -Mr. BALL. That is the door. Is that covered, is that area covered with -a ceiling roof? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it is. - -Mr. BALL. And this is also walled in, is it? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. The railroad track runs along here. - -Mr. BALL. After you get into this outside shed how did you get into the -first floor of the Texas School Book Depository? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Through that door. - -Mr. BALL. Through the door there, into the interior door? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. How much of the first floor here is clear so that you can see -anybody there? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Roughly say, let's see, just a few feet back, you know -here is the door right here. - -Mr. BALL. Whose door? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Mr. Shelley's. - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Just a few feet back in here is where the bins start, they -run this way. - -Mr. BALL. Can you mark in this where the bins start, the place? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Here. - -Mr. BALL. Just draw a line across, you don't need to draw in the bins -but just where the bins start and we we will know it is the area. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Somewhere right in here. - -Mr. BALL. Draw the line clear across. - -We will mark the line "A" on one side and "B" on the other so that we -can refer to it. - -Now, the area between, all the area shown in here from entrance to line -"AB", is clear, is it? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Now, the line from "AB" to the Elm Street side there are -bins, are they? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. And are those bins man high? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. 6, 7 feet? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Like I say these bins, we have two or three that -run across this way, like I have this line drawn, and they have broken -spaces, and you can see a man on the other side of these bins because -they are not sealed up in the back. - -In other words, you can put books in, say, from this side and go on the -other side and have another. Anyway, we have more like these window -here. - -Mr. BALL. The windows on Elm Street? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. We have some bins running this way, over here, -several bins, two or three over here, and two or three over here. - -Mr. BALL. Is this the only entrance to the first floor of the Building, -the one you have shown us? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir, it is not. - -Mr. BALL. What other entrance is there? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right here is the main entrance. - -Mr. BALL. The main entrance? - -Mr. FRAZIER. That is right, coming on through here. - -Mr. BALL. There are two entrances. There is a main entrance in the -front of the Building or the Elm Street entrance, and then there is the -door through which you entered the first floor, is that right? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, then we have another. - -Mr. BALL. Where? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Out over here, let's see if I can find it, where the -garage where we have the truck. Let's see. - -Mr. BALL. There is an overhead door here. - -Mr. FRAZIER. I see, right through here now, I see right through this -door here we come out right here and we come out in this area right in -here where we have another dock right out in this area right here, in -that area there. - -Mr. BALL. That would be---- - -Mr. FRAZIER. That would be one, two, three. From this loading, like I -say, where we keep the truck. - -Mr. BALL. Is this overhead door usually covered, usually down closed, -rather? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I say we keep it closed, and we have it here -back in cold weather and we kept it closed and like I say when you go -out there and get into the truck like you are going to drive the truck. - -Mr. BALL. Mark an arrow that you say is the entrance or exit, mark an -arrow going out. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Going out. - -Mr. BALL. All right. - -Now, this day did you see Lee Oswald the rest of the morning? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I saw him back and forth, you know, that morning -walking around, filling books and so forth, filling orders, had -invoices filling orders. - -Mr. BALL. When you came in that morning to go to work where did you go -first? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I went like I did every morning, I went down in the -basement there and hung up my coat and put up my lunch. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald down there? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Then you went to work? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. How did you get to the basement? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Went down through the, now over there where they have--are -you familiar with the Depository Building? - -Mr. BALL. Only through the map. - -Mr. FRAZIER. We have the---- - -Mr. BALL. There is the map of the first floor. Does it show the steps -leading down to the basement? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. You see the one there where you have the arrow -that is one entrance to the basement and that is the entrance I used -the biggest part of the time, that is the one I go down. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald there? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. During the morning you say you saw Oswald around filling -orders? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. BALL. Were you on the sixth floor any that morning? - -Mr. FRAZIER. One time just a few seconds. I said to Mr. Shelley we had -some book returns. They had sent back and he told me to count the books -and make sure they were all there and put them in the space and so I -took the elevator and loaded them on with a two-wheeler and so I know -where they went, and I went to the shelf off the elevator and put them -on the shelf and turned around and went right on down. - -Mr. BALL. Were they doing some work there that day? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; they were. - -Representative FORD. What time was that? - -Mr. FRAZIER. When I went to put up the stock? - -Representative FORD. Yes. On the sixth floor. - -Mr. FRAZIER. That was sometime between 8 and 10 o'clock. I say it was -the early part of the morning. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of work did you notice they were doing up there? - -Mr. FRAZIER. As well as I remember they were moving stock, I believe -putting up some stock, straightening up the stock. - -Mr. BALL. Any work done on the floor? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I don't remember if they were working on the floor or not. -They may have because upon the fifth floor I know we have done the -fifth floor. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember the names of any workmen you saw on the sixth -floor that morning you were there? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I believe Billy was up there, Billy Lovelady, but so far -as I can say I went and put books on the shelf and turned around and -walked back and glanced up when I was coming back, I didn't stay any -length of time because when we are pretty busy, some fill out orders -and some doing something else and if you have a lot of orders to fill -you haven't got a lot of time to sit around and be talking. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald on the sixth floor any time that morning? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. I didn't because like I say that was the only -time I went up there at all that day and I was just up there for a few -seconds. - -Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him any that morning? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I don't believe I did much unless he asked me something -about a book like I told you, and I was always willing to help anybody -I can. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you knew that the President was going to pass that -building sometime that morning, didn't you? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I heard he would. - -Mr. BALL. Did you talk to some of the men around there about it? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to Oswald about that? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. What time did you knock off for lunch? - -Mr. FRAZIER. 12. - -Mr. BALL. Did you eat your lunch? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; not right then I didn't. I say, you know, he was -supposed to come by during our lunch hour so you don't get very many -chances to see the President of the United States and being an old -Texas boy, and [he] never having been down to Texas very much I went -out there to see him and just like everybody else was, I was standing -on the steps there and watched for the parade to come by and so I did -and I stood there until he come by. - -Mr. BALL. You went out there after you quit work? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right, for lunch. - -Mr. BALL. About 12 o'clock? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. And you hadn't eaten your lunch up to that time? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go out there with somebody? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. BALL. Who did you go out there with? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I stayed around there pretty close to Mr. Shelley and this -boy Billy Lovelady and just standing there, people talking and just -talking about how pretty a day it turned out to be, because I told you -earlier it was an old cloudy and misty day and then it didn't look like -it was going to be a pretty day at all. - -Mr. BALL. And it turned out to be a good day? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Pretty sunshiny day. - -Mr. BALL. Warm? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was pretty warm. - -Mr. BALL. Then let's see, there was Billy Lovelady and you were there. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Anybody else you can remember? - -Mr. FRAZIER. There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked -upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last -name. - -Mr. BALL. Were you near the steps? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I was, I was standing about, I believe, one step -down from the top there. - -Mr. BALL. One step down from the top of the steps? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; standing there by the rail. - -Mr. BALL. By steps we are talking about the steps of the entrance to -the Building? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Shown in this picture? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Which is Commission's Exhibit No. 362. Can you come over here -and show us about where you were standing? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Like I told you this was an entrance right here. - -Mr. BALL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. FRAZIER. We have a bar rail running about half way up here. This -was the first step and I was standing right around there. - -Mr. BALL. Put a mark there. Your name is Frazier, put an "F" there for -Frazier. - -Mr. FRAZIER. O.K. - -Mr. BALL. In the picture that would show you about there, would it? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; you can see, just see, the top, about the top -rail there, I was standing right in there. - -Mr. BALL. Right in there? - -Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, I say, shadow from the roof there -knocked the sun from out our eyes, you wouldn't have any glare in the -eyes standing there. - -Mr. BALL. There was a roof over your head, was there? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Did you stand there for 30 minutes or--tell us how long you -stayed there? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I stood there until the parade come by. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see the President go by? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, just right after he went by he hadn't hardly -got by, I heard a sound and if you have ever been around motorcycles -you know how they backfire, and so I thought one of them motorcycles -backfired because right before his car came down, now there were -several of these motorcycle policemen, and they took off down toward -the underpass down there, and so I thought, you know, that one of them -motorcycles backfired, but it wasn't just a few seconds that, you know, -I heard two more of the same type of, you know, sounds, and by that -time people was running everywhere, and falling down and screaming, -and naturally then I knew something was wrong, and so I come to the -conclusion somebody else, somebody was shooting at somebody and I -figured it was him. - -Mr. BALL. You figured it was who? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I figured it was somebody shooting at President Kennedy -because people were running and hollering so I just stood still. I have -always been taught when something like that happened or anywhere as far -as that it is always best to stand still because if you run that makes -you look guilty sure enough. - -Mr. BALL. Now, then, did you have any impression at that time as to the -direction from which the sound came? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, to be frank with you I thought it come from down -there, you know, where that underpass is. There is a series, quite a -few number, of them railroad tracks running together and from where -I was standing it sounded like it was coming from down the railroad -tracks there. - -Mr. BALL. Were you able to see the President, could you still see the -President's car when you heard the first sound? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I couldn't. From there, you know, people were -standing out there on the curb, you see, and you know it drops, you -know the ground drops, off there as you go down toward that underpass -and I couldn't see any of it because people were standing up there in -my way, but however, when he did turn that corner there, there wasn't -anybody standing there in the street and you could see good there, but -after you got on past down there you couldn't see anything. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't see the President's car at the time you heard the -sound? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. But you stood right there, did you? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. Stood right where I was. - -Mr. BALL. And Mr. Shelley was still standing there? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. And also Billy Lovelady? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. The three of you didn't go any place? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction -but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody after that come into the Building while -you were there? - -Mr. FRAZIER. You mean somebody other that didn't work there? - -Mr. BALL. A police officer. - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I stood there a few minutes, you know, and some -people who worked there; you know normally started to go back into the -Building because a lot of us didn't eat our lunch, and so we started -back into the Building and it wasn't but just a few minutes that there -were a lot of police officers and so forth all over the Building there. - -Mr. BALL. Then you went back into the Building, did you? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. And before you went back into the Building no police officer -came up the steps and into the building? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Not that I know. They could walk by the way and I was -standing there talking to somebody else and didn't see it. - -Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything about what had happened, did you -hear anybody say anything about the President had been shot? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; right before I went back, some girl who had -walked down a little bit further where I was standing on the steps, and -somebody come back and said somebody had shot President Kennedy. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know who it was who told you that? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Sir? - -Mr. BALL. Do you know who the girl was who told you that? - -Mr. FRAZIER. She didn't tell me right directly but she just came back -and more or less in a low kind of hollering she just told several -people. - -Mr. BALL. Then you went back into the Building, did you? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. And police officers came in there? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I would say by the time, you know some of us -went back in, and it wasn't just a few minutes, I say there were -several. - -Mr. BALL. Did you stay on the first floor? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, stayed on the first floor there for a few minutes -and I hadn't eaten my lunch so I had my lunch down there in the -basement and I went down there to get my lunch and eat it and I walked -back up on the first floor there. - -Mr. BALL. When you came back into the Building, you came in the front -door, didn't you? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go down to the basement immediately or did you stand -around on the first floor? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I stood around for several minutes there, you -know, and then, you know, eventually the ones who hadn't eaten their -lunch, some of them had taken their lunch outside. - -Mr. BALL. Did other people go downstairs with you? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't. - -Mr. BALL. You went down alone, did you? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you go at any time in the back end of the Building back -near the door to the loading dock? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never did. - -Mr. BALL. Perhaps I had better ask you to point out on the map here -where you were. Come over here, please. - -Mr. FRAZIER. O.K. - -Mr. BALL. You came in back into the Building? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Tell us where you went and what you did? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, you know like I said I come back through here -[indicating on Commission Exhibit No. 362, diagram of first floor]. - -Mr. BALL. By "coming back through here," you mean you came down the -hallway and into the entrance into the first floor warehouse? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right, and you come by Mr. Shelley's office, that is his -counter right here, after you get in, you get off here, that is his -office, anyway, right out, I come out around here, you know where -several of the people walked around here. - -Mr. BALL. That is in the bin area? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; the bins don't start automatically right up in -here. I say, there is a little bit more or less, like more or less a -hall through here, but anyway, you know, I say, you have two or three -bins. - -Mr. BALL. Through here you mean there is sort of a hall after you enter -into the warehouse? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Right. - -Mr. FRAZIER. From it, after you come past this counter you have several -rows of bins coming this way, but, I say, right after you get past, -say, this last bin right here running that way, right out this general -area right here you have a telephone and everything out in here. - -Mr. BALL. Well, you indicated that everything that would be beyond this -line, the bin lines, would be clear on the first floor. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right, beyond here. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever go into that area where it was clear before you -went downstairs? - -From the time you came back into the room, did you go down into this -area which was clear before you went downstairs? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't go in here. I was right over right close -to Mr. Shelley's office right around here and sit around and talked -with some guys around there. - -Mr. BALL. You are indicating around Mr. Shelley's office? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; pretty close right there, like I say more or -less right out over in here we have a---- - -Mr. BALL. Put a mark there. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Let's see---- - -Mr. BALL. Put a circle to show the general area where you and the rest -of them stood around and talked. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right in there is right around near the telephone and we -were just right around in there. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you go? - -Mr. FRAZIER. We left, you know, after we stood and talked with some -guys there, some of them had eaten and some of them didn't, some of -them had sandwiches in their hands, so naturally I felt like eating and -I walked around the bin and walked down the steps there. - -Mr. BALL. Got your lunch? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Come back up? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't come back up. I was sitting eating -my lunch. I looked at my watch and didn't have but 10 minutes, so -I naturally ate faster than normal, so I was eating a couple of -sandwiches, and eat an apple or something and come right back up and -the guys, the people who worked there, standing around on the first -floor, some of them eating their lunches and others merely talking. - -Mr. BALL. You never went back to work? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; we didn't. I didn't work any more that day. - -Mr. BALL. You stayed there on the job until you were told to go home? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What time did they tell you to go home? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It was between 1 and 2 there sometime, roughly, I don't -know what time it was. - -Mr. BALL. Had the police officers come in there and talked to you? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; they come in and talked to all of us. They asked -us to show our proper identification, and then they had us to write our -name down and who to get in touch with if they wanted to see us. - -Mr. BALL. Did they ask you where you had been at the time the President -passed? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; they had. I told them I was out on the steps -there. - -Mr. BALL. Asked you who you were with? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I told them and naturally Mr. Shelley and Billy -vouched for me and so they didn't think anything about it. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear anybody around there asking for Lee Oswald? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. At any time before you went home, did you hear anybody ask -for Lee? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe they did, because they, you know, -like one man showed us, we had to give proper identification and after -we passed him he told us to walk on then to the next man, and we, you -know, put down proper information where he could be found if they -wanted to see you and talk to you any more, and then we went on up to a -little bit more to the front entrance more toward Mr. Shelley's office -there with another man and stood there for a little while and told us -all that was there could go ahead and go home. - -Mr. BALL. Then you went on home? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Representative FORD. Did all this occur after you had finished your -lunch? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it did. - -Representative FORD. Did it ever occur to you at any time following the -shooting there was something connecting the shooting with Lee Oswald -and the package? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say not particularly not at that time, I didn't -think anything about it because, to be frank with you, some were over -here, one or two would be over here talking and just strung out here, -on the first floor and I didn't think anything about it. I see some of -the guys, they go out for lunch and they come back 12:45 so I didn't -know whether he had went out to lunch or not. Some of them do every -week. - -Representative FORD. Did any of the policemen interfere with your -efforts to go into the Building and eventually down into the basement -where you had your lunch? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Before you left, did you look for Oswald to see about taking -him home? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No; I didn't, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Was there some reason why you didn't? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did. Because like I told you, he was going -home to get the curtain rods and I asked him at the time, the same -time, it would be about that, would he be going home with me Friday -afternoon like he had been doing, he said no. So naturally when they -let us go I took on off because I thought maybe they had already -dismissed him and he went on home. - -Mr. BALL. When you talked to him on Thursday and he told you he -wouldn't be going home on Friday, did he tell you what he was going to -do, why he wasn't going to go home? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him again on Friday morning as to whether or -not he had changed his mind? Did you ask him whether or not you could -pick him up at the end of the day? - -Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, Mr. Ball, I am not sure. - -Mr. BALL. Whether you did or not. - -Did anybody tell you that Lee Oswald was missing before you went home? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't. - -Representative FORD. Could you describe for the Commission where you -went on the sixth floor that morning in relationship to the overall -picture of the sixth floor? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I could. - -Representative FORD. Would you do so, please? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Do you have a piece of paper I can draw? [Witness draws diagram on -piece of paper.] - -Let's see, right here is your two elevator shafts we have. That morning -I used this one over here. - -Representative FORD. Would you mark Houston, Elm and the other streets? - -Mr. FRAZIER. This is Houston, this is Elm right out here. Anyway, like -I said, I won't draw these buildings. I have these two elevator shafts -here. Quickly you come off these elevator shafts right here, we have -skids with books on them, and you see right on those skids you would -have some shelves right about like this and so I merely walked over -to the elevator with the two-wheeler we use on the dock and walked -somewhere say maybe halfway, not quite halfway, there and put up some -books, put them down on the floor there, on the floor level and so I -just turned around and come back to the elevator and come on down, and -went about my business. He had me putting up some books there on the -shelves. - -Representative FORD. From this point here could you see the windows or -the area at the corner of Houston and Elm in the Building? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; you could. I say you could look down and see -this area back over here. - -Representative FORD. Did you look over there? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't. - -Right on down there, I knew where the books went so normally I didn't -have to look around. I say, I was going to get through, if you are not -familiar with the books and so forth it would take you a little longer -to find and put them up. But if you know where they go you can put them -up very quickly. - -So I knew this book went in the shelf because this book we don't handle -very many of them and that is where I put books you don't handle very -many, put them in the shelf. - -So I put the books in the shelf and turned around and put them in the -elevator and come on down. - -Mr. BALL. Can I have this marked as Commission Exhibit 368, the diagram -just drawn by the witness to illustrate his work on the sixth floor? - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be marked. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 368, for -identification.) - -Mr. BALL. I have here Commission's 163, a gray blue jacket. Do you -recognize this jacket? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Lee Oswald wear this jacket? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe I have. - -Mr. BALL. Commission Exhibit No. 162, which can be described for the -record as a gray jacket with zipper, have you seen Lee Oswald wear this -jacket? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I haven't. - -Mr. BALL. I have here Commission 150, which is described as sort of a -rust brown shirt. Have you ever seen Lee Oswald wear this shirt? It has -a hole in the sleeve near the elbow. - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe I have because most time I -noticed when Lee had it, I say he put off his shirt and just wear a -T-shirt the biggest part of the time so really what shirt he wore that -day I really didn't see it or didn't pay enough attention to it whether -he did have a shirt on. - -Mr. BALL. On that day you did notice one article of clothing, that is, -he had a jacket? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What color was the jacket? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It was a gray, more or less flannel, wool-looking type of -jacket that I had seen him wear and that is the type of jacket he had -on that morning. - -Mr. BALL. Did it have a zipper on it? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was one of the zipper types. - -Mr. BALL. It isn't one of these two zipper jackets we have shown? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know what kind of trousers he had on, what color? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Not that day, I don't remember. - -Mr. BALL. You wouldn't remember that day? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I had seen him wear some gray ones before. - -Mr. BALL. Here is Commission's Exhibit No. 157 which are gray trousers. -Had you ever seen him wear these? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; to be frank with you, I had seen something more or -less of that order, that type of material, but so far as that, being -sure that, was his pants or some of his clothes, I couldn't be sure. - -Mr. BALL. Here is Commission No. 156 which is a pair of gray trousers. -Did you ever see him wear trousers of that type? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Not that I know of. - -Mr. BALL. You are not able to tell us then anything or are you able to -tell us, describe any of the clothing he had on that day, except this -gray jacket? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. That is the only thing you can remember? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. I have here a paper sack which is Commission's Exhibit 364. - -That gray jacket you mentioned, did it have any design in it? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Was it light or dark gray? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It was light gray. - -Mr. BALL. You mentioned it was woolen. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Long sleeves? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Buttoned sleeves at the wrist, or do you remember? - -Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, I didn't notice that much about the -jacket, but I had seen him wear that gray woolen jacket before. - -Mr. BALL. You say it had a zipper on it? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now we have over here this exhibit for identification which -is 364 which is a paper sack made out of tape, sort of a home made -affair. Will you take a look at this. Does this appear to be anything -like the color of the sack you saw on the back seat? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I would say it was, it was more a color like -this. - -Mr. BALL. It was more like this color, correct? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Did it have tape on it or did you notice it? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, like I say, I didn't notice that much about it as I -didn't see it very much. - -Mr. BALL. Will you take a look at it as to the length. Does it appear -to be about the same length? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. We will just use this. Was one end of the sack turned over, -folded over? Do you remember that? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, you know, like I was saying, when I glanced at it, -but I say from what I saw I didn't see very much of it, I say the bag -wasn't open or anything like it where you can see the contents. If you -was going to say putting--to more or less a person putting in carefully -he would throw it in carefully, you put it more toward the back. If he -had anything folded up in it I didn't see that. - -Mr. BALL. When you saw him get out of the car, when you first saw him -when he was out of the car before he started to walk, you noticed he -had the package under the arm? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. One end of it was under the armpit and the other he had to -hold it in his right hand. Did the package extend beyond the right hand? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. Like I say if you put it under your armpits and -put it down normal to the side. - -Mr. BALL. But the right hand on, was it on the end or the side of the -package? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No; he had it cupped in his hand. - -Mr. BALL. Cupped in his hand? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Take a look at this paper bag which is Commission Exhibit 364 -for identification, with reference to the width. - -Was the bag about that width or a different width? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well. I would say it appears to me it would be pretty -close but it might be just a little bit too wide. I think it is, -because you know yourself you would have to have a big hand with that -size but like I say he had this cupped in his hand because I remember -glancing at him when he was a walking up ahead of me. - -Mr. BALL. This is another bag here which has been marked Commission's -Exhibit 142. But I don't see the stamp on it. This is FBI No. 10. This -was shown to you before, wasn't it, in Dallas? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was. - -Mr. BALL. You were asked if you had seen this before, weren't you? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I was. - -Mr. BALL. When you first saw it, you felt that the bag you saw was of a -different color, didn't you? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right, and I say they told me this one had been treated in -the lab. - -Mr. BALL. If you will note there is a part of this bag which has not -been treated. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. So I will show you this part of this exhibit that hasn't been -treated, and tell me whether or not the paper, the color of the paper -that has not been treated, is or is not similar to the color of the -paper on the bag you saw on the back seat of your car that morning. - -(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, more like I say the color, the color -I saw would be more like it but I imagine if this hadn't been run -through that process that this color here that you unwrapped would be -more closer to this. This seems to have a little bit different color to -me. - -Mr. BALL. I didn't get the answer because of the--let's refer to this -bag, that is the colored bag. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Okay, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And the bag that is not colored, and the other is just a bag. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Okay, sir. - -Mr. BALL. We are talking about the colored bag, the one that has -changed its color. There is a part of the colored bag that hasn't -changed color, isn't it? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. That is the part I want to call your attention to. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. The color of this bag, the colored bag, has not been treated. -Take a look at it. Is that similar to the color of the bag you saw in -the back seat of your car that morning? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It would be, surely it could have been, and it couldn't -have been. Like I say, see, you know this color, either one of these -colors, is very similar to the type of paper that you can get out of a -store or anything like that, and so I say it could have been and then -it couldn't have been. - -Mr. BALL. Do you mean by that that it is similar to the color? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. And do you have a definite memory of the color of the bag you -saw on the back seat of your car so that you can distinguish between -one color and another? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I believe it would be more on this basis here. - -Mr. BALL. You say it would be more on the color of bag No. 364, is that -right? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. You will notice that this bag which is the colored bag, FBI -Exhibit No. 10, is folded over. Was it folded over when you saw it the -first time, folded over to the end? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I will say I am not sure about that, whether it was folded -over or not, because, like I say, I didn't pay that much attention to -it. - -Mr. BALL. This is Commission Exhibit No. 142. - -The CHAIRMAN. That is the dark bag? - -Mr. BALL. The dark bag is Commission Exhibit No. 142. - -When you were shown this bag, do you recall whether or not you told the -officers who showed you the bag--did you tell them whether you thought -it was or was not about the same length as the bag you saw on the back -seat? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I told them that as far as the length there, I told them -that was entirely too long. - -Mr. BALL. What about the width? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, like I say now, now I couldn't see much of -the bag from him walking in front of me. Now he could have had some -of it sticking out in front of his hands because I didn't see it from -the front. The only time I did see it was from the back, just a little -strip running down from your arm and so therefore, like that, I say, I -know that the bag wouldn't be that long. - -So far as being that wide like I say I couldn't be sure. - -Mr. BALL. It could have been that wide? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you said that some of the bag might have been beyond his -hands, did you say? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I said it could have, now I am not saying it was. - -Mr. BALL. In other words, it could have been longer than his hands? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. It has been suggested that you take this bag, which is the -colored bag, Commission Exhibit No. 142, and put it under your arm just -as a sample, or just to show about how he carried the bag. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Okay. - -Mr. BALL. Put it under your armpit. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Like that, normally your hand would come down like that -and you would say, you would have an item, like you have seen people -carry items like they would be walking along and your arm would come -down like that, just like---- - -Mr. BALL. But are you sure that his hand was at the end of the package -or at the side of the package? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Like I said, I remember I didn't look at the package very -much, paying much attention, but when I did look at it he did have his -hands on the package like that. - -Mr. BALL. But you said a moment ago you weren't sure whether the -package was longer or shorter. - -Mr. FRAZIER. And his hands because I couldn't see that about the -package. - -Mr. BALL. By that, do you mean that you don't know whether the package -extended beyond his hands? - -Mr. FRAZIER. This way? - -Mr. BALL. No; lengthwise, toward his feet. - -Mr. FRAZIER. No; now I don't mean that. - -Mr. BALL. What do you mean? - -Mr. FRAZIER. What I was talking about, I said I didn't know where it -extended. It could have or couldn't have, out this way, widthwise not -lengthwise. - -Mr. BALL. In other words, you say it could have been wider than your -original estimate? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. But you don't think it was longer than his hands? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. How tall are you? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I am 6-foot, a little bit over 6-foot. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know what your arm length is? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't. - -Mr. BALL. We can probably measure it before you leave. - -Did you ever see Lee taking home anything with him from the Texas Book -Depository Building? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; never did. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him taking a package home with him? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. When was the last time you can remember you saw Lee? - -Mr. FRAZIER. You mean on the 22d? - -Mr. BALL. On the 22d, that day. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Somewhere between it was after 10 and somewhere before -noon, because I remember I was walking down to the first floor that -day, that was the only time I went up on the elevator was, like I say, -for a few minutes and, I put that box of books up and put it down, and -I was on the first floor putting up books all day and I seen him back -and forth and he would be walking and getting books and put on the -order. - -Mr. BALL. That was the last time you saw him all day? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't talk to him again? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Did you wear a coat or jacket to work that morning? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. BALL. It was chilly, was it? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was. - -Mr. BALL. When you stood out on the front looking at the parade, where -was Shelley standing and where was Lovelady standing with reference to -you? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, see, I was standing, like I say, one step down from -the top, and Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step -and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right -over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over -toward more the wall also. - -Mr. BALL. Usually when Lee walked in the Building in the morning, when -you came to work with him where did he go, do you know? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. He just walked in, say, like inside the Building, -and like I say I always went and put my lunch up and hang my jacket or -coat up, whichever I wore, and he was usually around there on the first -floor there after some of them put their lunch in the refrigerator, so -far as that I never paid too much attention to what he usually did. - -Mr. BALL. You usually walked in together? - -Mr. FRAZIER. That is right, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And you separated after you got in there? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; after we got into the interior I just went and put my -lunch up. - -Mr. BALL. Did you notice where Lee kept his lunch? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him come into the Building on other days -than the days that he rode with you? - -Mr. FRAZIER. You mean did I ever see him come in the Building when he -rode with me? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; because when he rode with me we always walked -together. - -Mr. BALL. No; other than when he rode with you. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, other than when he rode with me. No, sir; I didn't. - -The CHAIRMAN. Did he have any particular associates around there that -you knew of? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Not that I knew of. I say he didn't mingle with other guys -like the rest of us. The rest of us usually joked back and forth with -practically everybody who worked around there. But he usually kept to -himself, that was the only time he talked to anybody was when he wanted -to know something about a book or something like that. - -Mr. BALL. We have got a picture taken the day of the parade and it -shows the President's car going by. - -Now, take a look at that picture. Can you see your picture any place -there? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't, because I was back up in this more or -less black area here. - -Mr. BALL. I see. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Because Billy, like I say, is two or three steps down in -front of me. - -Mr. BALL. Do you recognize this fellow? - -Mr. FRAZIER. That is Billy, that is Billy Lovelady. - -Mr. BALL. Billy? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Let's take a marker and make an arrow down that way. That -mark is Billy Lovelady? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. That is where you told us you were standing a moment ago. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. In front of you to the right over to the wall? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Is this a Commission exhibit? - -We will make this a Commission Exhibit No. 369. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 369 for -identification.) - -Mr. BALL. That is written in. The arrow marks Billy Lovelady on -Commission's Exhibit No. 369. - -The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any lockers there in which you put your -clothes, and so forth? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; we don't. - -(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.) - -Mr. FRAZIER. Some boys hang their jackets up in there in that little -domino room where they were going to play dominoes. But here lately, -I have been wondering, you know, most of us wear our jackets, what we -have on, because if you are going out there on a dock in the cold air -we usually keep them on. - -The CHAIRMAN. I see. - -Mr. BALL. On Thursday afternoon when you went home, drove on home, did -he carry any package with him? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Did he have a jacket or coat on him? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of a jacket or coat did he have? - -Mr. FRAZIER. That, you know, like I say gray jacket. - -Mr. BALL. That same gray jacket? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Now, I can be frank with you, I had seen him -wear that jacket several times, because it is cool type like when you -keep a jacket on all day, if you are working on outside or something -like that, you wouldn't go outside with just a plain shirt on. - -Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. - -The CHAIRMAN. Senator, have you any questions you would like to ask? - -I think that is all. - -Does anybody else have any questions to ask? Do you have any questions? - -Mr. BALL. Mr. Frazier, we have here this Exhibit No. 364 which is a -sack and in that we have put a dismantled gun. Don't pay any attention -to that. Will you stand up here and put this under your arm and then -take hold of it at the side? - -Now, is that anywhere near similar to the way that Oswald carried the -package? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, you know, like I said now, I said I didn't pay much -attention---- - -Mr. BALL. Turn around. - -Mr. FRAZIER. I didn't pay much attention, but when I did, I say, he had -this part down here, like the bottom would be short he had cupped in -his hand like that and, say, like walking from the back if you had a -big arm jacket there you wouldn't tell much from a package back there, -the physical features. If you could see it from the front like when you -walk and meet somebody you could tell about the package, but walking -from behind you couldn't tell much about the package whatsoever about -the width. But he didn't carry it from the back. If this package were -shorter he would have it cupped in his hands. - -The CHAIRMAN. Could he have had the top of it behind his shoulder, or -are you sure it was cupped under his shoulder there? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; because the way it looked, you know, like I say, he -had it cupped in his hand. - -The CHAIRMAN. I beg your pardon? - -Mr. FRAZIER. I said from where I noticed he had it cupped in his hands. -And I don't see how you could have it anywhere other than under your -armpit because if you had it cupped in your hand it would stick over it. - -Mr. BALL. Could he have carried it this way? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. Never in front here. Like that. Now, that is what -I was talking to you about. No, I say he couldn't because if he had you -would have seen the package sticking up like that. - -From what I seen walking behind he had it under his arm and you -couldn't tell that he had a package from the back. - -Mr. BALL. When you cupped the bottom of your package in the hands, will -you stand up, again, please, and the upper part of the package is not -under the armpit, the top of the package extends almost up to the level -of your ear. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Or your eye level, and when you put the package under your -armpit, the upper part of the package, and take a hold of the side of -it with your right hand, it extends on approximately about 8 inches, -about the span of my hand, more than 8 inches, 8, 10 inches. - -Mr. FRAZIER. If you were using a yardstick or one of these little---- - -Mr. BALL. I was using my hand. - -Mr. FRAZIER. I know you were, but there are some different means to -measure it. I will say it varies, if you use a yardstick. You can go -and measure something with a tape measure, with a yardstick and come -up with a different measurement altogether, maybe a quarter of an inch -shorter or longer. - -Mr. BALL. I was asked, there was some uncertainty in your testimony as -to the direction from which you heard the shots fired. Let's see if we -can illustrate it. - -You heard the shots fired and you expressed an opinion that it came -from a certain direction. I would like to clear that up, if I could, on -this map. - -Here is the Texas School Book Depository Building, and you were -standing right here, you said, weren't you? Can you tell me? - -Mr. FRAZIER. You know the entrance there is not quite at that corner. - -Mr. BALL. That close. - -Now, you say you heard these three sounds which you later thought were -probably shots, you thought it came from a certain direction. - -Can you tell us from what direction as illustrated on the map? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. Now I say, you know where it is the straight curve -that goes under the underpass. - -Mr. BALL. That is the parkway? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. I say it runs over this parkway, you don't have it -on here--anyway, I say these railroad tracks there is a series of them -that come up over this, up over this overpass there, and from where I -was standing, I say, it is my true opinion, that is what I thought, it -sounded like it came from over there, in the railroad tracks. - -Mr. BALL. That would be east and south? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No; that would be west and south. - -Mr. BALL. West and south? - -Mr. FRAZIER. No; it would be north. - -Mr. BALL. No; it wouldn't be north. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it wouldn't be south because that is in that -direction. - -Mr. BALL. This is north, and you say it, I believe, it came from north? - -Mr. FRAZIER. It would be more or less west and north were these tracks -from this overpass. - -Mr. BALL. Your direction was west and north as the source of the sound. - -Well, take a look at the map that does show the overpass and you will -put a mark on that. - -Did any other people who were standing there with you express any -opinion as to where they thought the sounds came from? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, after we found out it was shots I see some of -the other people around there said when they were staying there, said -that is what it was, downward right back from us, like where we were -standing. If we had been standing somewhere else you might have gotten -a different opinion, but from where we were standing on the steps there -it sounded like back down to the right. - -Mr. BALL. Here is a Commission Exhibit, No. 347. It is an aerial -photograph, and it shows the Texas School Book Depository Building. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Here is the Depository Building here. - -Mr. BALL. That is right, sir. Here is the parkway. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. Here are the overpasses here. - -Can you show us on that map where you think--will that map--can you -on that map indicate the general direction from which you thought the -sounds came from? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; because we were standing right here. - -Mr. BALL. Don't mark it up right now. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. But what I am trying to say is we were standing -down there, and back over here, this over here is more or less a -knoll, and you can look over there and see this. You see this furthest -left line that curved around here is the ones we take to come out on -Stemmons Expressway, and this is a high knoll up here which runs where -the tracks are, from standing there it sounded like it came from this -general area over here. - -Mr. BALL. Just mark on that if you can, if you can mark a source. - -Mr. FRAZIER. This is where it is. - -Mr. BALL. Mark a circle. - -Mr. FRAZIER. I would say just like over in here. - -Mr. BALL. Let's make it a little heavier. In that general direction? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. That was just part of the knoll. - -Mr. BALL. The circle marked on No. 347, we will identify it with an -"F," the circle marked "F" represents the direction, general direction, -of a source of sound as you--as occurred to you as you stood on the -front steps of the Texas Book Depository Building, is that right? - -Mr. FRAZIER. Right. - -Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. - -The CHAIRMAN. Anything from you, Senator? - -Well, that will be all. Thank you very much for coming and testifying -before the Commission. - -Mr. FRAZIER. Thank you, Mr. Warren. - -The CHAIRMAN. All right, bring in the next witness. - -The Commission will be in order. - -Mrs. Randle, I will just read you a brief statement of the purpose of -our meeting today. - -The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Buell Wesley -Frazier and Linnie Mae Randle. The Commission has been advised that -these two witnesses have stated that they saw Lee Harvey Oswald on the -morning of November 22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask these -witnesses questions concerning their knowledge of the assassination of -President Kennedy. - -You have a copy of that, do you not? - -Very well, Mr. Ball will conduct the examination. - -Will you rise and be sworn, please? - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission -will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help -you God? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Please be seated. - -Mr. Ball? - - -TESTIMONY OF LINNIE MAE RANDLE - -Mr. BALL. Mrs. Randle, where do you live? - -Mrs. RANDLE. 2438 Westfield, Irving, Tex. - -Mr. BALL. And you live there with your husband and three daughters, do -you? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And your brother? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Wesley? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How long has Wesley been living there? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Since September, somewhere around the first, I am not sure -just the date. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know Mrs. Ruth Paine? - -Mrs. RANDLE. She is a neighbor that lives up the street from me. - -Mr. BALL. When did you first meet Mrs. Paine? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Well, for a period, I am not sure of this, it is quite 2 -years, I lived across the street from her. I didn't visit with her, but -I visited with her neighbor who lives next door. - -Mr. BALL. What is her name? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Mrs. Dorothy Roberts. - -Mr. BALL. That is on Fifth Street in Irving, Tex.? - -Mrs. RANDLE. That is right; yes. - -Mr. BALL. That was before you moved down the street to the corner of -Westfield and Fifth Street? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You had never visited in Mrs. Paine's home? - -Mrs. RANDLE. I was in her home on one occasion that I remember at a -birthday party for one of her children and she invited mine. - -Mr. BALL. How long ago? - -Mrs. RANDLE. It has been about a year ago. - -Mr. BALL. That is the only time you have visited Mrs. Paine? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever meet Marina Oswald? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. BALL. When did you meet her? - -Mrs. RANDLE. The first time I met her was over at this Mrs. Roberts. -I had gone up there to see Mrs. Roberts and her, Mrs. Oswald and Mrs. -Paine was over there drinking coffee, that was the first time I met her. - -Mr. BALL. When was that? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I believe it was the first week in October. - -Mr. BALL. That is the first time you had ever met Mrs. Oswald? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Officially met her. I had seen her out in the yard and -through the neighbor I knew who she was. I hadn't met her until that -time. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see her again to talk to her, Marina Oswald? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Well, she couldn't speak English, "How are you" and things -like that was about all she could say and I did visit with Mrs. Roberts -quite often and so she would be out in the yard and she would speak. - -Mr. BALL. In whose yards, Mrs. Roberts' yard or Mrs. Paine's? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Mrs. Paine's. She played with her children, and kept the -yard and things like that. - -Mr. BALL. But on this one occasion she was in the house, Mrs. Roberts' -house? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Mrs. Roberts. - -Mr. BALL. With Mrs. Paine, Mrs. Roberts and yourself? - -Mrs. RANDLE. That is right. - -Mr. BALL. Was there some conversation at that time about her husband -Lee Oswald? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Well, they had--it was just general knowledge in the -neighborhood that he didn't have a job and she was expecting a baby. Of -course, I didn't know where he was or anything. And of course you know -just being neighborly and everything, we felt sorry for Marina because -her baby was due right away as we understood it, and he didn't have any -work, so they said, so it was just---- - -Mr. BALL. Mrs. Paine told you that Lee didn't have any work? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I suppose. It was just in conversation. - -Mr. BALL. Marina didn't take part in the conversation? - -Mrs. RANDLE. No. She couldn't. So far as I know, she couldn't speak. - -Mr. BALL. You and Mrs. Roberts and Mrs. Paine talked about it? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Was there anything said then about the Texas School Book -Depository as a place he might get a job? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Well, we didn't say that he might get a job, because -I didn't know there was a job open. The reason that we were being -helpful, Wesley had just looked for a job, and I had helped him to try -to find one. We listed several places that he might go to look for -work. When you live in a place you know some places that someone with, -you know, not very much of an education can find work. - -So, it was among one of the places that we mentioned. We mentioned -several others, and Mrs. Paine said that well, he couldn't apply for -any of the jobs that would require driving because he couldn't drive, -and it was just in conversation that you might talk just any day and -not think a thing on earth about it. In fact, I didn't even know that -he had even tried any place that we mentioned. - -Mr. BALL. What were some of the other places mentioned? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I remember two of them. Mrs. Roberts entered into -the conversation and, of course, she is more familiar with the place -than I am. It was Manor Bakeries which was a home delivery service. - -Then there was this Texas Gypsum which makes sheet rock and things like -that, and we mentioned because Wesley had tried those places that I -mentioned those. - -Mr. BALL. And then you also mentioned the Texas Book Depository? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I didn't know there was a job opening over there. - -Mr. BALL. But did you mention it? - -Mrs. RANDLE. But we said he might try over there. There might be -work over there because it was the busy season but I didn't have any -previous knowledge that there was any job opening. - -Mr. BALL. Did you later learn that Lee had applied for a job? - -Mrs. RANDLE. She told me, Mrs. Paine told me, later that he had applied -for the job, and had gotten the job and she thanked us for naming the -places and things like that. - -Mr. BALL. Did you tell your brother that a fellow named Lee Oswald was -going to work for them? - -Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir; I didn't even know his name. She said Lee so I -just assumed that was his last name and I just merely mentioned to -Wesley that he had got the job or a job over there. - -Mr. BALL. That Lee had the job? - -Mrs. RANDLE. That Mrs. Paine said that, I had told Wesley that he -might--that she said he was going to call over there. - -In fact, Mrs. Paine asked me if I would call and see if there was a -job available and I told her, no, that I didn't know anybody over -there, and if she wanted to call over the place she would have to do it -because I didn't know if there was any job openings over there. - -Mr. BALL. You told Wesley, though, that you had--Mrs. Paine had told -you that Lee had applied for a job and gotten a job there? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Sir, I don't remember if I mentioned it to him or not. - -Mr. BALL. When you said a moment ago that you had mentioned something -to Wesley? - -Mrs. RANDLE. I might have had. But I can't say for sure I did because -at the time it was unimportant to me. It didn't really matter. - -Mr. BALL. In other words, you are not sure whether you did or didn't? - -Mrs. RANDLE. That is right. I might have, I don't know maybe for sure -if I did. - -Mr. BALL. Did Lee tell you at sometime that he had started to drive? - -Mrs. RANDLE. I never talked to Lee. - -Mr. BALL. Did Wesley tell you that he was driving Lee home weekends or -driving him to Irving weekends? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Wesley had told me that he asked to ride out on weekends. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him arrive with Lee? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you recall on a Thursday night, November 21 that you saw -Lee get out of Wesley's car? - -Mrs. RANDLE. That is right. - -Mr. BALL. About what time of night was it? - -Mrs. RANDLE. About 5:20, I believe, 5:15 or 5:25 something like that. - -Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him? - -Mrs. RANDLE. I was on my way to the grocery store. - -Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Wesley about the fact that he had brought Lee -home on this night? - -Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you think it was unusual that he had come home that night? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I knew that he had--Friday is the only time he had -ever ridden with him before which was a couple of times, I don't think -he rode with him over three times, I am not sure but I never did know -of him arriving, you know, except on Friday. - -Mr. BALL. Well, did you mention to Wesley that night or did you ask -Wesley that night how Lee happened to come home on Thursday? - -Mrs. RANDLE. I might have asked him. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything about curtain rods? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What do you remember about that? - -Mrs. RANDLE. He had told Wesley---- - -Mr. BALL. Tell me what Wesley told you. - -Mrs. RANDLE. What Wesley told me. That Lee had rode home with him to -get some curtain rods from Mrs. Paine to fix up his apartment. - -Mr. BALL. When did Wesley tell you that? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Well, that afternoon I suppose I would have had to ask -him, he wouldn't have just told me. - -Mr. BALL. You mean that night? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. After he came home? - -Mrs. RANDLE. I was on my way to the store. So I probably asked him when -I got back what he was doing riding home with him on Thursday afternoon. - -Mr. BALL. You think that was the time that Wesley told you---- - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; after I got back home. - -Mr. BALL. That Lee had come home to get some curtain rods? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, I am sure he told me that. - -Mr. BALL. The next morning did you get breakfast for Wesley, you, and -your mother? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes; mother and my children. - -Mr. BALL. And you were packing his lunch, too, were you? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see Lee? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, I did. - -Mr. BALL. Where did you see him? - -Mrs. RANDLE. I saw him as he crossed the street and come across my -driveway to where Wesley had his car parked by the carport. - -Mr. BALL. What street did he cross to go over? - -Mrs. RANDLE. He crossed Westbrook. - -Mr. BALL. And you saw him walking along, did you? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Was he carrying any package? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes; he was. - -Mr. BALL. What was he carrying? - -Mrs. RANDLE. He was carrying a package in a sort of a heavy brown bag, -heavier than a grocery bag it looked to me. It was about, if I might -measure, about this long, I suppose, and he carried it in his right -hand, had the top sort of folded down and had a grip like this, and the -bottom, he carried it this way, you know, and it almost touched the -ground as he carried it. - -Mr. BALL. Let me see. He carried it in his right hand, did he? - -Mrs. RANDLE. That is right. - -Mr. BALL. And where was his hand gripping the middle of the package? - -Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir; the top with just a little bit sticking up. You -know just like you grab something like that. - -Mr. BALL. And he was grabbing it with his right hand at the top of the -package and the package almost touched the ground? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. He walked over to your house, did he? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I saw him as he started crossing the street. Where -he come from then I couldn't say. - -Mr. BALL. You don't know where he went from that? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Where he went? - -Mr. BALL. Did you see him go to the car? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What did he do? - -Mrs. RANDLE. He opened the right back door and I just saw that he was -laying the package down so I closed the door. I didn't recognize him -as he walked across my carport and I at that moment I wondered who was -fixing to come to my back door so I opened the door slightly and saw -that it--I assumed he was getting in the car but he didn't, so he come -back and stood on the driveway. - -Mr. BALL. He put the package in the car. - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; I don't know if he put it on the seat or on the -floor but I just know he put it in the back. - -Mr. BALL. We have got a package here which is marked Commission Exhibit -No. 364. You have seen this before, I guess, haven't you, I think the -FBI showed it to you? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Was the color of that package in any way similar to the color -of this package which is 364? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Similar kind of paper, wasn't it? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, was the length of it any similar, anywhere near similar? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Well, it wasn't that long, I mean it was folded down at -the top as I told you. It definitely wasn't that long. - -Mr. BALL. How about the width? - -Mrs. RANDLE. The width is about right. - -Mr. BALL. The width is about right. - -Can you stand up here and show us how he was carrying it. Using this -package as an example only? - -Mrs. RANDLE. What he had in there, it looked too long. - -Mr. BALL. This looks too long? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. About how long would you think the package would be, just -measure it right on there. - -Mrs. RANDLE. I would say about like this. - -Mr. BALL. You mean from here to here? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; with that folded down with this much for him to -grip in his hand. - -Mr. BALL. This package is about the span of my hand, say 8 inches, is -that right? He would have about this much to grip? - -Mrs. RANDLE. What I remember seeing is about this long, sir, as I told -you it was folded down so it could have been this long. - -Mr. BALL. I see. You figure about 2 feet long, is that right? - -Mrs. RANDLE. A little bit more. - -Mr. BALL. A little more than 2 feet. - -There is another package here. You remember this was shown you. It is a -discolored bag, which is Exhibit No. 142, and remember you were asked -by the Federal Bureau of Investigation agents if this looked like the -package; do you remember? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, first of all with color, you told them the bag was not -the color? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. But they showed you a part of the bag that had not been -discolored, didn't they? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Looking at this part of the bag which has not been discolored -does that appear similar to the color of the bag you saw Lee carrying -that morning? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes; it is a heavy type of wrapping paper. - -Mr. BALL. Now, with reference to the width of this bag, does that look -about the width of the bag that he was carrying? - -Mrs. RANDLE. I would say so; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What about length? - -Mrs. RANDLE. You mean the entire bag? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mrs. RANDLE. There again you have the problem of all this down here. It -was folded down, of course, if you would take it from the bottom---- - -Mr. BALL. Fold it to about the size that you think it might be. - -Mrs. RANDLE. This is the bottom here, right. This is the bottom, this -part down here. - -Mr. BALL. I believe so, but I am not sure. But let's say it is. - -Mrs. RANDLE. And this goes this way, right? Do you want me to hold it? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mrs. RANDLE. About this. - -Mr. BALL. Is that about right? That is 28-1/2 inches. - -Mrs. RANDLE. I measured 27 last time. - -Mr. BALL. You measured 27 once before? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How was Lee dressed that morning? - -Mrs. RANDLE. He had on a white T-shirt, I just saw him from the waist -up, I didn't pay any attention to his pants or anything, when he was -going with the package. I was more interested in that. But he had on a -white T-shirt and I remember some sort of brown or tan shirt and he had -a gray jacket, I believe. - -Mr. BALL. A gray jacket. I will show you some clothing here. First, I -will show you a gray jacket. Does this look anything like the jacket he -had on? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. That morning? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Similar to that. I didn't pay an awful lot of attention to -it. - -Mr. BALL. Was it similar in color? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; I think so. It had big sleeves. - -Mr. BALL. Take a look at these sleeves. Was it similar in color? - -Mrs. RANDLE. I believe so. - -Mr. BALL. What is the Commission Exhibit on this jacket? - -Mrs. RANDLE. It was gray, I am not sure of the shade. - -Mr. BALL. 163. - -I will show you another shirt which is Commission No. 150. - -Does this look anything like the shirt he had on? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Well now, I don't remember it being that shade of brown. -It could have been but I was looking through the screen and out the -window but I don't remember it being exactly that. I thought it was a -solid color. - -Mr. BALL. Here is another jacket which is a gray jacket, does this look -anything like the jacket he had on? - -Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir; I remember its being gray. - -Mr. BALL. Well, this one is gray but of these two the jacket I last -showed you is Commission Exhibit No. 162, and this blue gray is 163, -now if you had to choose between these two? - -Mrs. RANDLE. I would choose the dark one. - -Mr. BALL. You would choose the dark one? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Which is 163, as being more similar to the jacket he had? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; that I remember. But I, you know, didn't pay an -awful lot of attention to his jacket. I remember his T-shirt and the -shirt more so than I do the jacket. - -Mr. BALL. The witness just stated that 163 which is the gray-blue is -similar to the jacket he had on. 162, the light gray jacket was not. - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. - -The CHAIRMAN.. Senator, have you any questions? - -Senator COOPER. No questions. - -The CHAIRMAN. Have you any questions, Mr. Powell? - -Mr. POWELL. No, sir. - -Senator COOPER. I think I do have one. - -Prior to the assassination of President Kennedy, did any FBI agents or -police officer ever visit your house? - -Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir. - -Senator COOPER. And said anything to you about Lee Oswald? - -Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Could I ask, Mr. Chief Justice, along the line Senator -Cooper touched on--whether there had been any conversation in the -neighborhood prior to the assassination of any FBI agents or police -officers having visited in the neighborhood? - -Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You heard nothing along rumors of that kind? - -Mrs. RANDLE. No. Later, after all this was over, I had heard that they -had been to Mrs. Paine's residence. - -Mr. JENNER. But there was no excitement in the neighborhood up to that -point? - -Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I have one question, Mr. Chief Justice. - -You used an expression there, that the bag appeared heavy. - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You meant that there was some weight appeared to be---- - -Mrs. RANDLE. To the bottom. - -Mr. BALL. To the bottom? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes. It tapered like this as he hugged it in his hand. It -was more bulky toward the bottom than it was this way. - -Mr. BELIN. Toward the top? More bulky toward the bottom than toward the -top? - -Mrs. RANDLE. That is right. - -Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. - -Senator COOPER. On that point--did you see Lee Oswald place the package -in the automobile? - -Mrs. RANDLE. In the automobile. I do not know if he put it on the seat -or on the floor. - -Senator COOPER. I mean did you see him throw open the door? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. When he placed the package in there do you remember -whether he used one hand or two? - -Mrs. RANDLE. No; because I only opened the door briefly and what made -me establish the door on Wesley's car, it is an old car and that door, -the window is broken and everything and it is hard to close, so that -cinched in my mind which door it was, too. But it was only briefly that -I looked. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chief Justice, could I ask--how far away were you? You -were at the kitchen door and the automobile was in the driveway, what -was the distance between yourself and Mr. Oswald? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Sir, I don't know. The carport will take care of two cars, -and then Wesley's car was on the other side of the carport so that -would be three car lengths plus inbetween space. - -Mr. JENNER. Car widths? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Car widths, excuse me. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it a light day? - -Mrs. RANDLE. It was sort of cloudy, but there wasn't any--I mean it -wasn't dark or anything like that. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough as you can recall--can you recall -what the fabric of the jacket was that Mr. Oswald had on this morning, -was it twill or wool or gabardine? Cotton? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Probably cotton or gabardine, something like that that -would repel water probably, and that is just my own opinion. - -Mr. JENNER. That is your present recollection? - -Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Randle, thank you very much for coming, you may be -excused. - - -TESTIMONY OF CORTLANDT CUNNINGHAM - -Mr. BALL. Will you state your name for the record? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Cortlandt Cunningham. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Cunningham, will you raise your right hand and be -sworn, please? - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony given before this Commission will -be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you -God? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I do. - -Mr. BALL. Mr. Cunningham, be seated there. - -What is your business? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am a special agent of the FBI. - -Mr. BALL. What is your specialty with the FBI? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am assigned to the FBI laboratory in the Firearms -Identification Unit. - -Mr. BALL. There is a rifle here that has been identified as Commission -Exhibit No. 139, it has been in your custody, hasn't it? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It has. - -Mr. BALL. You brought it over here this morning? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I did. - -Mr. BALL. And I requested you disassemble it? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I did. - -Mr. BALL. Let's take it out of the sack and put it before the -Commission. - -Do you need any special tools to assemble this rifle? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I notice you have a screwdriver there. Can you assemble it -without the use of a screwdriver? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What can you use? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Any object that would fit the slots on the five screws -that retain the stock to the action. - -Mr. BALL. Could you do it with a 10-cent piece? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Will you do that--about how long will it take you? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I know I can do it, but I have never been timed as far -as using a dime. I have been timed using a screwdriver, which required -a little over 2 minutes. - -Mr. BALL. 2 minutes with a screwdriver. - -Try it with the dime and let's see how long it takes. - -Okay. Start now. Six minutes. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I think I can improve on that. - -Mr. BALL. And the only tool you used was a 10-cent piece? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. - -Mr. BALL. That is all. - -Senator COOPER. Does the bolt work all right now? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Once in a while with regard to the top portion--namely -the retaining screw and the top stock--you have trouble getting them -engaged on this particular model. - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is the case on this weapon. On that one over -there, however, it slid right on when I put it together a little while -ago; it was much faster. - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes. This is a weapon identical to the one that has been -identified as the assassination weapon? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. This is the assassination weapon. - -Mr. BALL. This is the weapon found on the sixth floor of the Texas Book -Depository. - -The CHAIRMAN. May I ask, have you fired it? - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Many times. - -The CHAIRMAN. That has been fired many times? - -Mr. BELIN. You can disassemble it in a lesser amount of time, I assume. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Definitely, it comes apart much faster. I can do it for -you. - -The CHAIRMAN. I understand with a screwdriver you put the rifle -together in 2 minutes. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; a few seconds over 2 minutes, somewhere -around 2-1/4, 2-1/2 minutes, readily. - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. And I am sure I can assemble it faster the second time -with a dime than I did the last time but I did have trouble with that -one retaining screw. - -The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything more you have on this? - -Mr. BALL. No. - -The CHAIRMAN. Anybody? - -Well, Agent Cunningham, thank you very much, sir. - -Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Thank you, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, if there are no further witnesses today, -we will adjourn for the day, and we will meet tomorrow morning at 9 -o'clock for the purpose of taking further testimony. - -(Whereupon, at 12:45 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -_Thursday, March 12, 1964_ - -TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM WAYNE WHALEY AND CECIL J. McWATTERS - -The President's Commission met at 9:20 a.m. on March 12, 1964, 200 -Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. - -Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Cooper -and Representative Gerald R. Ford, members. - -Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Joseph A. Ball, -assistant counsel; David W. Belin, assistant counsel; Melvin Aron -Eisenberg, assistant counsel; Lewis F. Powell, Jr. and Charles Murray, -observers. - - -TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM WAYNE WHALEY - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Whaley, the purpose of our meeting today is to -take some further testimony concerning the events surrounding the -assassination of President Kennedy, and we understand you have some -facts that will bear on it in a way and we would like to ask you -questions concerning it. - -Will you rise, please, raise your right hand to be sworn? - -Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing -but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. WHALEY. I do, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please? Mr. Ball will conduct the -examination. - -Mr. BALL. Mr. Whaley, what is your business? - -Mr. WHALEY. I am a taxi driver, sir. - -Mr. BALL. How long have you been a taxi driver? - -Mr. WHALEY. 37 years. - -Mr. BALL. You worked all that time in Dallas? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What is your residence? - -Mr. WHALEY. 619 Pine Street, Route 2, Louisville, Tex., 26 miles north -of Dallas. - -Mr. BALL. But you drive a taxicab in Dallas? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Whom do you work for? - -Mr. WHALEY. City Transportation Company. - -Mr. BALL. You are an employee of theirs, are you? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You don't own your own cab? - -Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; they don't allow that in that city. - -Mr. BALL. How long have you worked for that company? - -Mr. WHALEY. 37 years. Not for that company, sir, but for the original -owners, it started out. I have been in with that original company but -all banded together in one cab company. - -Mr. BALL. Were you on duty on the 22nd of November 1963? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What were your hours that day at work? - -Mr. WHALEY. Well, my hours run from 6 to 4, sir; 6 in the morning to 4 -in the afternoon. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of a cab were you driving on that day? - -Mr. WHALEY. A 1961 Checker. - -Mr. BALL. Was it equipped with radio equipment? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You can call in to your dispatcher? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I can. - -Mr. BALL. By a two-way radio? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you operate on cab stands or do you cruise? - -Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; you just go out in the morning and wherever they -send you you go to work and wherever you unload you check in they give -you another call like that. - -Mr. BALL. About 12:30 that day where were you? - -Mr. WHALEY. Well, about 12:30 as you say, sir; I was at the Greyhound -bus station. I have a copy of my trip sheet here. - -Mr. BALL. Could I see that, please? - -Mr. WHALEY. The FBI took the original and the pictures of the cab and -everything. - -Mr. BALL. That is what I have been waiting for. - -Mr. WHALEY. I think it is supposed to be delivered to you, sir. - -Mr. BALL. That is right. I am glad you have that copy. - -Mr. WHALEY. I thought maybe you might need it. You look down there it -says Greyhound, 500 North Beckley, I think it is marked 12:30 to 12:45. -Now that could have been 10 minutes off in each direction because I -didn't use a watch, I just guess, in other words, all my trips are -marked about 15 minutes each. - -Mr. BALL. I am going to let you use this manifest to refresh your -memory, Mr. Whaley. I have seen it. I am going to ask you some -questions and you refresh your memory if you will from the manifest. - -First of all, describe the document you are using, what is that? - -Mr. WHALEY. It is a trip sheet manifest. The company gets the amount of -money you have run, your meter reading and all, and they have to keep -it because of the city ordinance requirement that the taxis make this -kind of manifest. - -Mr. BALL. Tell me when you make the entries, you make the entries when? - -Mr. WHALEY. Sometimes I make them right after I make the trips, sir, -and sometimes I make three or four trips before I make the entries. - -Mr. BALL. Are you required by your employer to describe the trip, where -you went, how far it was? - -Mr. WHALEY. Not by the employer, sir. All the employers are interested -in are the meter reading and your tolls. The city of Dallas ordinance -requires that you put down where you picked the passenger up, where you -unload the passenger. They are not interested in the price, the number -of passengers and the time. - -Mr. BALL. Now, the manifest does contain that information, though, does -it? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; it does. - -Mr. BALL. Will you describe the different columns of the manifest, that -information that is in each column generally? - -Mr. WHALEY. Over on the left side, where you see call or pickup, if you -get the call on your radio you mark with a "C" and if somebody hails -you on the street that is marked "P" for pickup. - -In the next column it has the trip numbers from one to fifty. - -Mr. BALL. The number of the trips you make that day? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. In the third column it says "from." Like this -first one, 4924 Belmont and then to the next column, to the airport. - -The next column is the "meter reading," what the meter said, $1.75. The -next column says "flat rate." If it had been an extra passenger or so -and you had a flat rate you would put it in that column. - -The third column is "charge," the people who have the charge accounts -through the company in the car, you put the meter reading in there -because you don't get cash and you put charge, the company takes it off. - -The next column says the number of passengers and that first trip was -four passengers, time out six o'clock, I got that trip out of the barn -and it is marked "call." - -6:20 is "time in." "Mileage in" was 44. Now, see I didn't put the -mileage out on the first one, the mileage out is up here, 35 to 44. It -would have been nine miles I made on the first trip. - -Over here on the side here, it has the number of trips I made that -day which is 21, on the meter registered 21 trips 45 cents a trip is -$9.45. 157 units, a unit is a dime clicks every four-tenths of a mile. -That would be 157 units at $15.70. Added total of $25.15. I used 5-1/2 -gallons of gas, had eight pickups in 13 calls and 29 passengers. That -is it complete, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I see. - -Now, look at your manifest and tell me where you were at 12 o'clock the -day of November 22, 1963. - -Mr. WHALEY. 12 o'clock I got a call to the Travis Hotel. I have got it -marked 16 which is the Continental bus station, stand No. 15, 55 cents. -I unloaded that at 12:15. - -Mr. BALL. Then where did you go at 12:15 according to your record? - -Mr. WHALEY. According to my record I got a pickup at the Continental -bus station which is stand 16 and went to the Greyhound which is 55 -cents. I unloaded at the Greyhound, I have got it marked 12:30. See -there is that 15 minutes you say I am off, I just mark it 15, I don't -put the correct time on the sheet because they don't require it, sir, -but anywhere approximate. - -Mr. BALL. In other words, it took you about 15 minutes to go---- - -Mr. WHALEY. It actually took about nine minutes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And you put the trip ending Greyhound around 12:30? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You remember that trip, do you, you remember the fact that -you took the trip to the Greyhound and parked your car at the Greyhound -or your cab at the Greyhound, don't you? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I remember it. - -Mr. BALL. Were you standing at the Greyhound, at your cab stand at the -Greyhound, long before you picked up another passenger? - -Mr. WHALEY. No, sir, there was no one at the Greyhound stand and when -I unloaded at the door I just pulled up about 30 feet to the stand -and stopped and then I wanted a package of cigarettes, I was out so I -started to get out and I saw this passenger coming so I waited for him. - -Mr. BALL. He was coming down the street? - -Mr. WHALEY. He was walking down the street. - -Mr. BALL. What street was he walking down? - -Mr. WHALEY. Lamar. - -Mr. BALL. Would that mean he was walking south on Lamar? - -Mr. WHALEY. He was walking south on Lamar from Commerce when I saw him. - -Mr. BALL. That would be on which side of the street? - -Mr. WHALEY. The west side of the street. - -Mr. BALL. South on Lamar? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you notice how he was dressed? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. I didn't pay much attention to it right then. But -it all came back when I really found out who I had. He was dressed in -just ordinary work clothes. It wasn't khaki pants but they were khaki -material, blue faded blue color, like a blue uniform made in khaki. -Then he had on a brown shirt with a little silverlike stripe on it and -he had on some kind of jacket, I didn't notice very close but I think -it was a work jacket that almost matched the pants. - -He, his shirt was open three buttons down here. He had on a T-shirt. -You know, the shirt was open three buttons down there. - -Mr. BALL. Now, what happened after that, will you tell us in your own -words what he did? - -Mr. WHALEY. Well, on this which was the 14th trip when I picked up at -the Greyhound I marked it 12:30 to 12:45. - -Mr. BALL. You say that can be off 15 minutes? - -Mr. WHALEY. That can be off either direction. - -Mr. BALL. Anything up to 15 minutes, you say? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I wrote that trip up the same time I wrote the -one up from the Continental bus station to the Greyhound, I marked this -12:15 to 12:30 and started 12:30 to 12:45. And the next one starts at -1:15 to 1:30 and it goes on all day long every 15 minutes the time -keeps pretty approximate. - -Mr. BALL. Let's take the 12:30 trip, tell me about that, what the -passenger said. - -Mr. WHALEY. He said, "May I have the cab?" - -I said, "You sure can. Get in." And instead of opening the back door he -opened the front door, which is allowable there, and got in. - -Mr. BALL. Got in the front door? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. The front seat. And about that time an old lady, -I think she was an old lady, I don't remember nothing but her sticking -her head down past him in the door and said, "Driver, will you call me -a cab down here?" - -She had seen him get this cab and she wanted one, too, and he opened -the door a little bit like he was going to get out and he said, "I will -let you have this one," and she says, "No, the driver can call me one." - -So, I didn't call one because I knew before I could call one one would -come around the block and keep it pretty well covered. - -Mr. BALL. Is that what you said? - -Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; that is not what I said, but that is the reason I -didn't call one at the time and I asked him where he wanted to go. And -he said, "500 North Beckley." - -Well, I started up, I started to that address, and the police cars, the -sirens was going, running crisscrossing everywhere, just a big uproar -in that end of town and I said, "What the hell. I wonder what the hell -is the uproar?" - -And he never said anything. So I figured he was one of these people -that don't like to talk so I never said any more to him. - -But when I got pretty close to 500 block at Neches and North Beckley -which is the 500 block, he said, "This will do fine," and I pulled over -to the curb right there. He gave me a dollar bill, the trip was 95 -cents. He gave me a dollar bill and didn't say anything, just got out -and closed the door and walked around the front of the cab over to the -other side of the street. Of course, traffic was moving through there -and I put it in gear and moved on, that is the last I saw of him. - -Mr. BALL. When you parked your car you parked on what street? - -Mr. WHALEY. I wasn't parked, I was pulled to the curb on Neches and -North Beckley. - -Mr. BALL. Neches, corner of Neches and North Beckley? - -Mr. WHALEY. Which is the 500 block. - -Mr. BALL. What direction was your car? - -Mr. WHALEY. South. - -Mr. BALL. The cab was headed? - -Mr. WHALEY. South. - -Mr. BALL. And it would be on the west side of the street? - -Mr. WHALEY. Parked, stopped on the west side of the intersection, yes, -sir. - -Mr. BALL. When he got out of the cab did he go around in front of your -cab? - -Mr. WHALEY. He went around in front, yes, sir; crossed the street. - -Mr. BALL. Across to the east side of the street? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see whether he walked south? - -Mr. WHALEY. I didn't see whether he walked north or south from there. - -Mr. BALL. In other words, he walked east from your cab and that is the -last time you saw him? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Was there anything in particular about him beside his -clothing that you could identify such as jewelry, bracelets? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; he had on a bracelet of some type on his left -arm. It looked like an identification bracelet. Just shiny, you know, -how you see anything shiny, an unusual watchband or something shiny, -you notice things like that. - -Mr. BALL. I have a map of Dallas here, which I would like to have -marked as the Commission's next exhibit which is Exhibit No. 371. - -The CHAIRMAN. It will be so marked. - -(The map referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 371 for -identification.) - -Mr. BALL. I would like to offer into evidence Exhibits Nos. 368 and 369 -that were marked yesterday. - -The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibits Nos. 368 and 369, heretofore marked for -identification, were received in evidence.) - -Mr. BALL. And 371 being a form map of Dallas can probably be offered -in evidence at this time. It is going to be used to illustrate the -witness' testimony. - -The CHAIRMAN. That may be done. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 371, heretofore marked for identification was -received in evidence.) - -Mr. BALL. There is a map here which is described as Dallas street map, -Republic National Bank of Dallas, and in one corner of this map there -is shown a small map of downtown Dallas. - -Will you point on the map there to the Greyhound bus station? - -Let's take the small map. It was on the corner of Jackson? - -Mr. WHALEY. And Lamar. - -Mr. BALL. And Lamar. - -Mr. WHALEY. The northwest corner, Greyhound bus station. - -Mr. BALL. You have seen this map before, have you not? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I am very familiar with that map. - -Mr. BALL. And let's take Lamar, here is Jackson. - -Mr. WHALEY. Lamar is down here, sir. - -Mr. BALL. This is Jackson, this is the Houston viaduct. - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Here is Jackson, and Lamar is right there. - -Mr. WHALEY. Well, the Greyhound bus station is on the northwest corner. - -Mr. BALL. Suppose we make an "X" there at Jackson. - -Mr. WHALEY. All right, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And Lamar. That is where you picked your passenger up? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. When you started out which direction did you go, and before -you mark just take this blunt end and then we will mark it after you -describe it on the map. - -Now, the next street is Austin, just to the west of Lamar? - -Mr. WHALEY. That is right. - -Mr. BALL. All right. - -Mr. WHALEY. I turned to the left. - -Mr. BALL. All right. - -Mr. WHALEY. I turned to the left off Lamar onto Jackson, went one block -to Austin, then from Austin I turned to the left again and went one -block over to Wood Street. - -Now, the reason for that is if you catch this light right at Lamar and -Jackson, this other light turns green as you make your turn here and -the other one turns green as you make your turn at Wood. You just move -through traffic. That was my reason for making the turn. - -Then I turned left on Wood off Austin and went straight on down Wood to -Houston which is the street which we call the old viaduct. - -Mr. BALL. You call that the Houston Street viaduct? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes. - -(At this point Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. WHALEY. Went across the viaduct to Zangs, as soon as you get across -the angle to the left, that is Zangs Boulevard. - -Mr. BALL. Take the black pen and draw your course along this small map -as far as you can go and we will go to the continuation of the map. - -Now, can you tell us--did everybody see this course--now can you tell -us where you were when the sirens were blowing and you saw police cars -all around? - -Mr. WHALEY. I was still at the Greyhound, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You were still there? - -Mr. WHALEY. They were there when I loaded. - -Mr. BALL. Now, in the course of your travel down to the Houston viaduct -did you see any police cars? - -Mr. WHALEY. Oh, yes, sir; lots of them, what we call triangle, -three-wheeled motorcycle, they all seemed to be converging on one spot. - -Mr. BALL. What spot? - -Mr. WHALEY. Well, it seemed to be the courthouse, that is what it -seemed to me at that time. I didn't know what had happened. - -Mr. BALL. The courthouse is about a block from the Texas State Book -Depository? - -Mr. WHALEY. You could throw a baseball from one building to the other. - -Mr. BALL. Now we will turn to the large map and we will still use -the--get downtown. Here we are. Will you use--Lamar and Jackson again. - -Mr. WHALEY. This will be kind of ticklish because that is very small. - -Mr. BALL. That is right. - -Mr. WHALEY. Main, Commerce, Jackson, Lamar. - -Mr. BALL. Do the same thing. - -Mr. WHALEY. To Austin, to Wood, to Houston, to the viaduct, across -the viaduct, let's see, Colorado comes in off this, this is the Zangs -Boulevard, the red line where it hits Marcel is here, that is Zangs -Boulevard. Up past Colorado, still going Zangs here. - -Mr. BALL. You are going along Zangs, will you go along---- - -Mr. WHALEY. I am trying to find Beckley, the green light changed from -red to green on Beckley, right here is an intersection; Zangs Boulevard -goes on up, and Beckley turns off. - -Mr. BALL. Here is Neches right here. - -Mr. WHALEY. Let me see where Neches is, is that right? Yes, that is it. -This is the intersection right there. - -Mr. BALL. We put an "X" there. - -Mr. WHALEY. That is where he got off. - -Mr. BALL. That is where you dropped your passenger, is that right? - -Mr. WHALEY. That is--as far as I can see that is Neches. - -Mr. BALL. That is Neches, that is Beckley. - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; that is right, because that is the 500 block of -North Beckley. - -Mr. BALL. Now, we will mark the beginning of your trip on the large map -as "Y", and where you dropped your passenger as an "X". - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. "Y" is the corner of Lamar and Jackson, and "X" is the corner -of Neches and Beckley. - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. O.K. - -Can you tell me what distance that was? - -Mr. WHALEY. Well, it was 95 cents on the meter, the meter starts off at -45 cents, then it goes four-tenths of a mile and it clicks a dime which -would be 55, then a dime every four-tenths of a mile after that and it -was almost ready to click a $1.05 when it stopped, so I imagine that -would be 55 cents, would be eight-tenths of a mile and then after the -first 45 cents it runs 25 cents a mile, because it gets a dime every -four-tenths. - -Mr. BALL. So you had 95 cents? - -Mr. WHALEY. 65 cents would be three, four-tenths, would be 1 mile and -two-tenths. 75 would be one mile and six-tenths. 85 would be one--would -be 2 miles. 95 would be 2 and four-tenths, almost ready to click. - -Mr. BALL. What do you give them for 45 cents? - -Mr. WHALEY. Four-tenths of a mile. - -Mr. BALL. Four-tenths of a mile? - -Mr. WHALEY. It goes four-tenths of a mile. - -Mr. BALL. Five clicks after the first? - -Mr. WHALEY. 45 cents. - -Mr. BALL. Well, then, you ran about---- - -Mr. WHALEY. About 2-1/2 miles, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Two and one-half miles? - -Mr. WHALEY. Approximately. - -Mr. BALL. Two miles and four-tenths approximately. - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Can you give me any estimate of the time it took you to go -that 2-1/2 miles? - -Mr. WHALEY. Not actually, sir. I run it again with the policeman -because the policeman was worried, he run the same trip and he couldn't -come out the same time I did. But he was turning off of Jackson and -Lamar when the light was wrong, and he was hitting a red light at -Wood--I mean at Austin and Jackson and he hit a red light at Wood and -Austin, then he hit a red light at Houston. Where I wait to make my -turn until the light is right just after it has been green, almost -ready for it to come red, turn right then, then the other lights turn -green just as fast as you get to them, go on right through, you save -about 2 minutes in traffic that way. That is where I got the 2 minutes -on him he never could make up. So I had to go back with him to make -that trip to to show him I was right. - -Mr. BALL. How much time, in that experiment, when you hit the lights -right, how long did it take you? - -Mr. WHALEY. Nine minutes. - -Mr. BALL. Nine minutes? - -Mr. WHALEY. Nine minutes. - -Representative FORD. Now on this particular trip with Oswald, do you -recall the lights being with you? - -Mr. WHALEY. They were with me, sir; for I timed them that way before I -took off. Because I made that so much that I know the light system and -how they are going to turn. - -Representative FORD. So this was a typical trip? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. The witness has been driving a taxicab in Dallas for 36 -years. - -Mr. WHALEY. Thirty-seven, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Thirty-seven. - -Mr. WHALEY. You name an intersection in the city of Dallas and I will -tell you what is on all four corners. - -Mr. BALL. Did you stop and let your passenger out on this run on the -north or south side of the intersection? - -Mr. WHALEY. On the north side, sir. - -Mr. BALL. North side? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. That would be---- - -Mr. WHALEY. Northwest corner. - -Mr. BALL. Northwest corner of Neches and Beckley? - -Mr. WHALEY. Northwest corner of Neches and Beckley. - -Mr. BALL. I have some clothing here. Commission Exhibit No. 150, does -that look like the shirt? - -Mr. WHALEY. That is the shirt, sir, it has my initials on it. - -Mr. BALL. In other words, this is the shirt the man had on? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; that is the same one the FBI man had me identify. - -Mr. BALL. This is the shirt the man had on who took your car at Lamar -and Jackson? - -Mr. WHALEY. As near as I can recollect as I told him. I said that is -the shirt he had on because it had a kind of little stripe in it, -light-colored stripe. I noticed that. - -Mr. BALL. Here are two pair of pants, Commission Exhibit No. 157 and -Commission Exhibit No. 156. Does it look anything like that? - -Mr. WHALEY. I don't think I can identify the pants except they were the -same color as that, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Which color? - -Mr. WHALEY. More like this lighter color, at least they were cleaner or -something. - -Mr. BALL. That is 157? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. But you are not sure about that? - -Mr. WHALEY. I am not sure about the pants. I wouldn't be sure of the -shirt if it hadn't had that light stripe in it. I just noticed that. - -Mr. BALL. Here is Commission No. 162 which is a gray jacket with zipper. - -Mr. WHALEY. I think that is the jacket he had on when he rode with me -in the cab. - -Mr. BALL. Look something like it? - -And here is Commission Exhibit No. 163, does this look like anything he -had on? - -Mr. WHALEY. He had this one on or the other one. - -Mr. BALL. That is right. - -Mr. WHALEY. That is what I told you I noticed. I told you about the -shirt being open, he had on the two jackets with the open shirt. - -Mr. BALL. Wait a minute, we have got the shirt which you have -identified as the rust brown shirt with the gold stripe in it. - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You said that a jacket---- - -Mr. WHALEY. That jacket now it might have been clean, but the jacket he -had on looked more the color, you know like a uniform set, but he had -this coat here on over that other jacket, I am sure, sir. - -Mr. BALL. This is the blue-gray jacket, heavy blue-gray jacket. - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Later that day did you--were you called down to the police -department? - -Mr. WHALEY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Were you the next day? - -Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; they came and got me, sir, the next day after -I told my superior when I saw in the paper his picture, I told my -superiors that that had been my passenger that day at noon. They called -up the police and they came up and got me. - -Mr. BALL. When you saw in the newspaper the picture of the man? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You went to your superior and told him you thought he was -your passenger? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did the Dallas police come out to see you? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Or FBI agents? - -Mr. WHALEY. The Dallas police came down and took me down and the FBI -was waiting there. - -Mr. BALL. Before they brought you down did they show you a picture? - -Mr. WHALEY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. They didn't? - -Mr. WHALEY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. They brought you down to the Dallas police station? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do there? - -Mr. WHALEY. Well, I tried to get by the reporters, stepping over -television cables and you couldn't hardly get by, they would grab -you and wanted to know what you were doing down here, even with the -detectives one in front and one behind you. Then they took me in -an office there and I think Bill Alexander, the Assistant District -Attorney, two or three, I was introduced to two or three who were FBI -men and they wanted my deposition of what happened. - -So, I told them to the best of my ability. Then they took me down in -their room where they have their show-ups, and all, and me and this -other taxi driver who was with me, sir, we sat in the room awhile and -directly they brought in six men, young teenagers, and they all were -handcuffed together. Well, they wanted me to pick out my passenger. - -At that time he had on a pair of black pants and white T-shirt, that is -all he had on. But you could have picked him out without identifying -him by just listening to him because he was bawling out the policeman, -telling them it wasn't right to put him in line with these teen-agers -and all of that and they asked me which one and I told them. It was him -all right, the same man. - -Mr. BALL. They had him in line with men much younger? - -Mr. WHALEY. With five others. - -Mr. BALL. Men much younger? - -Mr. WHALEY. Not much younger, but just young kids they might have got -them in jail. - -Mr. BALL. Did he look older than those other boys? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And he was talking, was he? - -Mr. WHALEY. He showed no respect for the policemen, he told them what -he thought about them. They knew what they were doing and they were -trying to railroad him and he wanted his lawyer. - -Mr. BALL. Did that aid you in the identification of the man? - -Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; it wouldn't have at all, except that I said -anybody who wasn't sure could have picked out the right one just for -that. It didn't aid me because I knew he was the right one as soon as I -saw him. - -Mr. BALL. You don't think that that in any way influenced your -identification? - -Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; it did not. When you drive a taxi, sir, as long as -I have, you can almost look at a man, in fact, you have to, to be able -to tell whether you can trust or whether you can't trust him, what he -is. - -Now, like you got in my taxicab and I looked you over and you told me -just wait for me here and went in the building, well, I will have to -know whether I could just say, "OK, sir." Or say, "Will you leave me a -$5 bill, sir?" - -When you drive a taxi that long you learn to judge people and what I -actually thought of the man when he got in was that he was a wino who -had been off his bottle for about two days, that is the way he looked, -sir, that was my opinion of him. - -Mr. BALL. What was there about his appearance that gave you that -impression? Hair mussed? - -Mr. WHALEY. Just the slow way he walked up. He didn't talk. He wasn't -in any hurry. He wasn't nervous or anything. - -Mr. BALL. He didn't run? - -Mr. WHALEY. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did he look dirty? - -Mr. WHALEY. He looked like his clothes had been slept in, sir, but -he wasn't actually dirty. The T-shirt was a little soiled around the -collar but the bottom part of it was white. You have to know those -winos, or they will get in and ride with you and there isn't nothing -you can do but call the police, the city gets the fine and you get -nothing. - -Mr. BALL. Who was the other cab driver? - -Mr. WHALEY. I don't know his name, sir. He worked for the same company -but he works out of the Oak Cliff branch. They say he was the one who -saw him kill the policeman, the one who used the policeman's microphone. - -Mr. BALL. Is that Mr. Scoggins? - -Mr. WHALEY. What is his name? - -Mr. BALL. Scoggins. - -Mr. WHALEY. It could have been, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You don't know him? - -Mr. WHALEY. I just know he drives taxi 213. He works out of Oak Cliff -branch. - -Mr. BALL. I would like to have a copy of the manifest temporarily -marked 370. - -Mr. WHALEY. You may have it, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Commission 370, and offer it into evidence and ask leave to -submit the original, if it is brought in, when it is brought here by -the FBI. - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes, it may be admitted. - -(The manifest referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 370 for -identification and received in evidence.) - -Mr. BALL. This will be 370. - -Could we excuse Mr. Whaley now? There are two pieces of evidence to be -here and they are not here. - -The CHAIRMAN. Excuse him and we will take the other witness. - -Mr. BALL. We will excuse him and take the other witness. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Whaley, will you wait outside until we get the other -exhibits and we will finish with you very shortly. - -Mr. McWatters, would you be seated please. - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. The Commission is meeting today to take further testimony -concerning the events surrounding the assassination of President -Kennedy, and it is our understanding that you have some information -that would bear on that subject, and that is the reason for our asking -you to come here and testify. - -Would you raise your right hand to be sworn please. - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission -will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help -you God? - -Mr. McWATTERS. I do. - - -TESTIMONY OF CECIL J. McWATTERS - -The CHAIRMAN. Would you be seated please, and Mr. Ball will conduct the -interrogation. - -Mr. BALL. Mr. McWatters. - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What is your business? - -Mr. McWATTERS. I am a bus driver. - -Mr. BALL. How long have you been a bus driver? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Let's see, this coming September will be 19 years. - -Mr. BALL. Whom do you work for? - -Mr. McWATTERS. The Dallas Transit Company. - -Mr. BALL. How long have you worked for the Dallas Transit Company? - -Mr. McWATTERS. It will be 19 years in September, I believe. - -Mr. BALL. Where do you live? - -Mr. McWATTERS. 2523 Blyth Drive, Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. BALL. On November 22,1963, were you on duty as a driver? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What kind of a bus were you driving? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I was driving a 44-passenger, let's see, it is a -44-passenger city bus made by White, I believe is the maker of the bus. - -Mr. BALL. What hours of work were you assigned that day? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I was assigned that day on the particular run from -11:52 until 2:27. - -Mr. BALL. What was your run? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Do you mean the name of the run? - -Mr. BALL. What course did you take, what part of Dallas did you drive -in. - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I went from---- - -Mr. BALL. Describe it generally, you don't need to go into any detail. - -Mr. McWATTERS. I would say from northeast Dallas in the Lakewood -addition of Dallas to the Oak Cliff addition of Dallas, which is, would -be southwest. - -Mr. BALL. Would that be northeast to southwest? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is right. - -Mr. BALL. There is a place near the downtown area of Dallas where you -timed your run, wasn't it? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I have after I get into town, when I get into -the downtown part of it, now St. Paul Street is my official time point -going in, where they have a supervisor that stays at this checkpoint -there, to check all incoming vehicles. - -Mr. BALL. You would be coming in from northeast Dallas at that time? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I am coming in from the Lakewood addition of -Dallas, which I came in on. The main thoroughfare is Gaston Avenue. - -Mr. BALL. And you got to the intersection of what street and St. Paul -when you were timed by your dispatcher? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is Elm, Elm Street. - -Mr. BALL. Elm and St. Paul? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Elm and St. Paul. - -Mr. BALL. If you are ahead of time do you stop there until you are -assigned a time to get in? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, sir; no sir; you don't--a man he has his watch and -schedule. If you are ahead of your schedule he will come out and stop -you, in other words, and ask you if your watch is right or what is it, -you know, the idea of you being there. There is no excuse, you know for -a man being ahead of his schedule. - -Mr. BALL. If you are ahead of your schedule does he stop you there -until you leave? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, that is right. - -Mr. BALL. What time are you due, according to your schedule, to leave -the corner of St. Paul and Elm? - -Mr. McWATTERS. 12:36. - -Mr. BALL. What time did you leave there that day? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I left there that day on time because coming into -town that day, I guess everybody done went to, down to, see the parade, -I didn't have over four or five passengers coming into downtown. - -Mr. BALL. Were you ahead of your schedule? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I stopped about a block before--now, just a block -before we get to St. Paul, there is a big theater there, and it has all -loading zones, no parking there and a lot of times if we are a minute -or two ahead of our schedule when we pull in in front of this theater -before we get there in time, in other words, we kill a minute. - -Mr. BALL. What did you do this day? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I was a little ahead of my schedule and I killed -about a minute, I guess, before I went to cross St. Paul Street. - -Mr. BALL. After your dispatcher checked you in what time did you leave -that corner of St. Paul and Elm? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the best I can remember I don't recall even -picking up a passenger there. I think I discharged one lady passenger -there on that, to the best I can recall, because I remember that I had, -when I crossed Field Street, I think I had five passengers on my bus. - -Mr. BALL. Well then, back to the question, what time did you leave that -day, leave Elm and St. Paul? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I would have to say I left there around, in other -words, 12:36 because I know I was on good time when I come in there. - -Mr. BALL. And you think you left at the time you were supposed to leave? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I am almost positive I did, because, as I say, we -generally come in on schedules on good time because from that street on -is where we generally--for the next seven or eight blocks--is where we -get all of our passengers going through the downtown area. - -Mr. BALL. Had you heard any sirens before you got to St. Paul and Elm? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know if your dispatcher keeps a written record? - -Mr. McWATTERS. The only way he keeps a written record is if you are -ahead of your schedule. He has a little pad, and if a man is ahead of -his schedule, in other words, he writes, of course, we all go by badge -numbers, in other words, he would write your badge number, your bus -number, and if you was ahead of schedule he would write how much ahead -of schedule you were, and---- - -Mr. BALL. Do you think he did anything, did he write anything up on you -on that day? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; the guy that we have down there now, if you are -ahead of schedule he will come out, in other words, because he stands -on the corner all the time, and if you are a minute or two ahead of -your schedule he will come out and if nothing else, converse with you -for a minute or two to see that you leave it on time and very seldom, I -mean, if ever--of course, a report goes in on you, it goes against your -record. - -Mr. BALL. In other words, if he did make a record it would be by way of -a reprimand to you? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. As you went on down Elm you left your post at St. Paul and -Elm, did you hear any sirens? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you pick up any passengers? - -Mr. McWATTERS. I picked up within a period of from the time I picked up -two or three passengers, I can't recall just exactly which stop. I have -after I leave St. Paul Street, I have Ervay Street and Akard Street, -and Field Street which would be three stops where I can't recall that, -exactly where I discharged or picked up passengers, because I had the -few passengers that I had which I came into town with. - -Mr. BALL. Well then, do you remember picking up a passenger at a place -other than at a bus stop as you went down Elm? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -As I left Field Street, I pulled out into the, in other words, the -first lane of traffic and traffic was beginning to back up then; in -other words, it was blocked further down the street, and after I pulled -out in it for a short distance there I come to a complete stop, and -when I did, someone come up and beat on the door of the bus, and that -is about even with Griffin Street. - -In other words, it is a street that dead ends into Elm Street which -there is no bus stop at this street, because I stopped across Field -Street in the middle of the intersection and it is just a short -distance onto Griffin Street, and that is when someone, a man, came up -and knocked on the door of the bus, and I opened the door of the bus -and he got on. - -Mr. BALL. You were beyond Field and before you got to Griffin? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is right. It was along about even with Griffin -Street before I was stopped in the traffic. - -Mr. BALL. And that is about seven or eight blocks from the Texas Book -Depository Building, isn't it? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. It would be seven, I would say that is seven, -it would be about seven blocks. - -Mr. BALL. From there? - -Mr. McWATTERS. From there, yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did the man look like who knocked on your door and got -on your bus? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I didn't pay any particular attention to him. He -was to me just dressed in what I would call work clothes, just some -type of little old jacket on, and I didn't pay any particular attention -to the man when he got on. - -Mr. BALL. Paid his fare, did he? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; he just paid his fare and sat down on the -second cross seat on the right. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not you gave him a transfer? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Not when he got on; no, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't. Did you ever give him a transfer? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I gave him one about two blocks from where he -got on. - -Mr. BALL. Did he ask you for a transfer? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember what he said to you when he asked you for the -transfer? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the reason I recall the incident, I had--there -was a lady that when I stopped in this traffic, there was a lady who -had a suitcase and she said, "I have got to make a 1 o'clock train at -Union Station," and she said, "I don't believe--from the looks of this -traffic you are going to be held up." - -She said, "Would you give me a transfer and I am going to walk on -down," which is about from where I was at that time about 7 or 8 blocks -to Union Station and she asked me if I would give her a transfer in -case I did get through the traffic if I would pick her up on the way. - -So, I said, "I sure will." So I gave her a transfer and opened the door -and as she was going out the gentleman I had picked up about 2 blocks -asked for a transfer and got off at the same place in the middle of -the block where the lady did. - -Mr. BALL. Where was that near, what intersection? - -Mr. McWATTERS. It was the intersection near Lamar Street, it was -near Poydras and Lamar Street. It is a short block, but the main -intersection there is Lamar Street. - -Mr. BALL. He had been on the bus about 2 blocks? - -Mr. McWATTERS. About 2 blocks; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Up to that time had you heard any sirens? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Not up until--now just about the time that, let's see, -that is when I left Griffin, right about the time this gentleman got on -the bus the traffic was starting and that was about the first that I -can recall of hearing the sirens, but when, in other words, when they -started it seemed to me like they was coming from all over town. - -Mr. BALL. Did you have a radio in your bus? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you hear a radio from nearby cars announcing anything -about the President's assassination? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, there was cars that were stopped alongside of the -bus and I think someone raised the window but I couldn't hear. I never -did hear anything outside of the---- - -Mr. BALL. Where were you when you first heard the President had been -shot? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I was sitting in the bus, there was some gentleman -in front of me in a car, and he came back and walked up to the bus and -I opened the door and he said, "I have heard over my radio in my car -that the President has been--" I believe he used the word--"has been -shot." - -Mr. BALL. Is that when you were stalled in traffic? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is right. That is when I was stalled right there. - -Mr. BALL. Was that before or after the man got off the bus that asked -for the transfer? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That was before. In other words, at that time no one had -gotten off the bus. - -Mr. BALL. What was your location then, near what street? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Between Poydras and Lamar, in other words, because I -stayed stopped there for, I guess oh, 3 or 4 minutes anyway before I -made any progress at that one stop right there and that is where the -gentleman got off the bus. In fact, I was talking to the man, the man -that come out of the car; in other words, he just stepped up in the -door of the bus, and was telling me that what he had heard over his -radio and that is when the lady who was standing there decided she -would walk and when the other gentleman decided he would also get off -at that point. - -Mr. BALL. At that point. - -What course did you take after that? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I still was going west, in other words, in the -same direction, going west, in other words, towards Houston Street. In -other words, I went there before I changed my course which was about, I -would say, three or four blocks. - -When I got to Houston Street, in other words, I turned to the left, -which would be south---- - -Mr. BALL. You went by the Texas School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I turned at the corner of Elm Street and -Houston which this book store is on the opposite corner from where I -changed course there. - -Mr. BALL. Was traffic still heavy along there? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; the traffic was still tied up, but the police, -they opened up a lane there, they had so many buses and everything that -was tied up, they opened up, moved traffic around that they run quite a -few of these buses through there. - -In other words, from two blocks on this side of where the incident -happened they had, in other words, they was turning all the traffic to -the right and to the left, in other words, north and south. - -Mr. BALL. You went on down to Houston viaduct then? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, I turned after they finally let--they weren't -letting any cars through at that time but they just run a bunch of -those buses through there. - -Mr. BALL. Is there a bus stop in front of the Texas School Book -Depository Building? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL, Where do you stop for that intersection? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, you stop, in other words, on this side of the -street. - -Mr. BALL. You stop on the south side of, the southeast corner of the -intersection? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -In other words, like you would be going, direct south towards the -Building, the bus stop is on this corner over here on this side. - -Mr. BALL. You mean the corner of Houston and Elm? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is right. - -Mr. BALL. Which corner, north, south, east, west? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, it would be on the north. - -Mr. BALL. North. - -Mr. McWATTERS. On the north. - -Mr. BALL. Here is a map and maybe you can show us where the bus stop -is. This is Exhibit No. 371. - -Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, this is south, in other words. - -Mr. BALL. This is west. You are going west on Elm. - -Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, I am going--right here is where the -police had all traffic, they wasn't allowing anything to go any further -than Market Street here. - -In other words, all the traffic there they were moving was turning -either to the right or left, on Market Street. But after they held us -up there so long, of course, they run these buses in this right lane -here and they did open up and let a bunch of these buses go right on -down here to Houston, of course, a lot of them go straight on and a -lot of them turn left to Houston Street, a lot of them go under the -underpass here. - -Mr. BALL. Wait a minute, you turned to the left? - -Mr. McWATTERS. I turned to the left. - -Mr. BALL. On Houston? - -Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, my last stop, in other words at this -corner right here on Record Street, all buses turning to the left have -to stop at this corner right here. - -Mr. BALL. At Record and Elm? - -Mr. McWATTERS. At Record and Elm. - -Mr. BALL. Do you have a bus stop at Houston and Elm? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; there is a bus stop there for the buses that -go on under the underpass. - -Mr. BALL. Is there a bus stop for the buses that go south on Houston? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; all the buses, we have to get in, this is a -one-way street and you have to get over in this lane here. - -Mr. BALL. By the lane you mean the extreme left lane? - -Mr. McWATTERS. The extreme left lane to make---- - -Mr. BALL. To make the left turn south on Houston Street? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And your last bus stop, as you go west on Elm and before you -turn is the northeast corner of Record and Elm? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. BALL. You went on over to Houston Viaduct into the Oak Cliff -section, didn't you? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; to the Oak Cliff section. - -Mr. BALL. And there was some conversation occurred on that bus that you -told the FBI officers about? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Tell us what that was? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, there was a teenage boy, I would say 17 or 18 -years of age, who was sitting to my right on the first cross seat and -me and him had, we had conversationed a little while we was tied up -in the traffic, you know, of the fact of we wondered where all, what -all the excitement was due to the fact of the sirens and others, and -after I turned on Houston Street I said to him and I made the remark, -I wonder where the President was shot, and I believe he made the -remark that it was probably in the head if he was in a convertible -or something to that effect. I don't remember just exactly the way -we worded it or what it was, but it was a conversation about the -President, in other words, to where he was shot. - -In other words, and he made the remark or something, he was probably -shot in the head, if he was sitting in a convertible or to that effect. -I really don't know just exactly at that time. Just like I say I never -thought anything about it. - -Mr. BALL. Didn't some lady say something? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, yes, sir. - -Now, as we got on out on Marsalis, along about it was either Edgemont -or Vermont, I believe it was Vermont Street, there was a lady who was -fixing to cross the intersection and I stopped and asked her if she was -going to catch the bus into town from the opposite direction, and she -said that she was and I told her that we was off schedule, that the -other bus had done went into town, and I asked her did she care to just -ride on to the end of the line and come back and she wouldn't have to -stand there and wait, and she was getting on, and I asked her had she -heard the news of the President being shot, at the time that was all I -knew about it, and she said, "No, what are you--you are just kidding -me." - -I said, "No, I really am not kidding you." I said, "It is the truth -from all the reliable sources that we have come in contact with," and -this teenage boy sitting on the side, I said "Well, now, if you think -I am kidding you," I said, "Ask this gentleman sitting over here," and -he kind of, I don't know whether it was a grinning or smile or whatever -expression it was, and she said, "I know you are kidding now, because -he laughed or grinned or made some remark to that effect." - -And I just told her no it wasn't no kidding matter, but that was part -of the conversation that was said at that time. - -Mr. BALL. Was this teenage boy--do you know where this teenage boy got -on the bus? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; he got on at between, he got on at the stop, -in other words, I stopped in front of the Majestic theater which is a -block before I get to St. Paul; in other words, it is a middle of the -stop, block stop, in other words. We pull in and stop in the center of -the block, and my next stop would be St. Paul; in other words, that is -where the teenage boy got on. - -Mr. BALL. He was on the bus when this man knocked on the door of your -bus and got on? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; he was. - -Mr. BALL. He was on the bus when the man asked for the transfer and got -off? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. That is right. - -Mr. BALL. Were you later called down to the--did the teenage boy ask -for any transfer? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you were called down to the Dallas police department -later, weren't you? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What day was it? - -Mr. McWATTERS. It was on the same day, the 22d. - -Mr. BALL. 22d. Do you know how they happened to get in touch with you, -did you notify them that you---- - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; I didn't know anything to that effect. - -Mr. BALL. Did they come out and get you? - -Mr. McWATTERS. They come out and---- - -Mr. BALL. What did they ask you? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, they stopped me; it was, I would say around 6:15 -or somewhere around 6:15 or 6:20 that afternoon. - -Mr. BALL. You were still on duty, were you? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Still on your bus? - -Mr. McWATTERS. I was on duty but I was on a different line and a -different bus. - -Mr. BALL. What did they ask you when they came out? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, they stopped me right by the city hall there when -I come by there and they wanted me to come in, they wanted to ask me -some questions. And I don't know what it was about or anything until I -got in there and they told me what happened. - -Mr. BALL. What did they tell you? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, they told me that they had a transfer that I had -issued that was cut for Lamar Street at 1 o'clock, and they wanted to -know if I knew anything about it. And I, after I looked at the transfer -and my punch, I said yes, that is the transfer I issued because it had -my punch mark on it. - -Mr. BALL. Did your punch mark have a distinctive mark? - -Mr. McWATTERS. It had a distinctive mark and it is registered, in other -words, all the drivers, every driver has a different punch mark. - -Mr. BALL. What makes it different? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, it is, it would be, the symbol of it or angle, in -other words, every one; it is different, in other words. - -Mr. BALL. You have a punch there? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I have the punch right here. - -Mr. BALL. Is that the punch that you used? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is the punch I used. - -Mr. BALL. Will you punch a piece of paper and show us? - -Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, that is the type of punch that this one -makes right here, in other words. - -Mr. BALL. That is a different type of punch than any other driver has? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Any driver, in other words. - -Mr. BALL. On any bus in Dallas? - -Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, the superintendent has a list, in other -words, it would be just like this and every man has a punch and he has -his name, and everything. In other words, if anyone calls in about -a transfer or anything, I mean brings one in he can look right down -the list by the punch mark and tell whose punch it is, and who it is -registered to. - -Mr. BALL. Now, the sample of your punch there has been on a piece of -paper and we would like to have it marked as 372 at this time. - -(The paper referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 372 and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. BALL. If you punched, made a punch mark, on a transfer, did you -designate the time of the punch or the place of the punch? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I designate the time of the--we have one -general transfer point. In other words, Lamar Street is what we call -our general transfer point in which all transfers are cut within the -quarter of the hour in which you are supposed to be there. - -In other words, if you was to arrive there at, say, 12:50 or in that -vicinity, you always give the passenger the 15 minutes, in other words, -within the hour of the transfer. In other words, is the way they have -you to cut your transfers across your cutter. - -In other words, it is just a little thing that you raise up and down -and you can adjust them, and right here is a book of them in which you -can see the time. It is one, in other words, 2:15, 3:30, and 4:45, and -we set them in other words, if you wanted at 1:15, 1 o'clock would be -across this direction. If you wanted it 1:15 you would cut across this -direction or if you wanted it 1:45 you would cut it in this direction. -In other words, 1:15, -:30 and -:45. In other words, the 15 minutes is -always given at the time, at the general transfer point. - -Representative FORD. It is 10:25 now. How would you cut it right now? - -Mr. McWATTERS. At 10:25. - -Representative FORD. Why don't you cut one? - -Mr. McWATTERS. I have a regular cutter, you see; let's see if he can -get something that would--in other words, 10:25, I will just cut it, in -other words, cut across there, and cut it, in other words, at 10:30, -in other words, it would show at 10:30. - -(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.) - -Representative FORD. Where do you put your own identification? - -Mr. McWATTERS. On here. Well, if it is in the morning or in the -afternoon, here is your a.m., or your p.m. In other words, it is before -12:45, in other words, we consider up to 12:45 a.m., in other words, -that is the way they are. - -In other words, I would punch it in the a.m. side of it, and if it -was in the afternoon, in other words, after that, it would be a p.m. -transfer, and whatever line that you are working has the name on it -right here. - -In other words, at that time that transfer I had punched was punched a -p.m. Lakewood, in other words, because I was coming from the Lakewood -addition is the way that was punched on the transfer. - -Mr. BALL. Well now, do you punch the transfer when the passenger asks -for it? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No. No, sir; in other words, when you leave this, you -are inbound when you are going into town or when you are going, in -other words, out of town, in other words. - -I was coming in, in other words, when I got in Lakewood Addition I set -my transfers for downtown. - -Mr. BALL. For downtown and you set them for what time? - -Mr. McWATTERS. I set them for 1 o'clock. - -Mr. BALL. You set them for 1 o'clock? - -Mr. McWATTERS. 1 o'clock. - -Mr. BALL. When you reached your end of the run in northeast Dallas then -you set your transfers for 1 o'clock, did you? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, when I was coming back in. - -Mr. BALL. And when you gave this transfer near Poydras and Elm---- - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you pull out a transfer that had already been set for 1 -o'clock time? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. In other words, I just reached up on my cutter -and just tore off one which is already punched. - -Mr. BALL. Then did you punch it again or was it already punched? - -Mr. McWATTERS. It was already punched. - -Mr. BALL. And you had punched it at the end of the line? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. So all you had to do is pull the transfer off of the pile of -transfers and hand it to the man? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct. - -Mr. BALL. And you had anticipated at the end of the line that when -you got to about this point it would be a 1 o'clock transfer, is that -correct? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, that is right. - -In other words, there is enough time on it, just like I say, within a -quarter of an hour, but---- - -Mr. BALL. When you got to the police station that day did they show you -a transfer? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What did you tell them about the transfer? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I recognized the transfer as being the transfer -that I had issued. - -Mr. BALL. How did you recognize it? - -Mr. McWATTERS. By my punch mark on it. - -Mr. BALL. And what about the line? - -Mr. McWATTERS. The line? - -Mr. BALL. Lakewood. - -Mr. McWATTERS. The Lakewood punch on it, and where it was punched and -Lakewood with my punch mark on it. - -Mr. BALL. Were you able to identify it any further as a particular -transfer you had given to any particular passenger? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. Only---- - -Mr. BALL. Go ahead. - -Mr. McWATTERS. I only gave two transfers going through town on that -trip and that was at the one stop of where I gave the lady and the -gentleman that got off the bus, I issued two transfers. But that was -the only two transfers that were issued. - -Mr. BALL. Did you tell the police in Dallas that? - -Mr. McWATTERS. I don't remember whether I did or not. - -Mr. BALL. But you do remember it now? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. - -(At this point Chief Justice Warren left the hearing room.) - -Mr. BALL. All right. Now, what else did you do that day? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, let's see---- - -Mr. BALL. Did they show you any prisoner? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; when they stopped me over there and took me -into the police department there, like I say, it was around 6:15 or -6:20, they took me down before the lineup there and asked me if I could -identify anyone in that lineup as getting on my bus that day. - -Mr. BALL. Did they take you down and show you a lineup? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You sat there with police officers and they brought men in -there? - -Mr. McWATTERS. They brought four men out. In other words, four men -under the lights; in other words, they was all---- - -Mr. BALL. All the same age? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; they were different ages, different sizes and -different heights. And they asked me if I could identify any man in -particular there, and I told them that I couldn't identify any man in -particular, but there was one man there that was about the size of the -man. Now, I was referring back, after they done showed me this transfer -at that time and I knew which trip, that I went through town on at that -time, in other words, on the Lakewood trip and just like I recalled, -I only put out two transfers and I told them that there was one man -in the lineup was about the size and the height and complexion of a -man that got on my bus, but as far as positively identifying the man I -could not do it. - -Mr. BALL. What was the size and the height and complexion of the man -that knocked on the window of this bus? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I would say, just like I told the police, to me he -was just a medium-sized man. To me he was, I would say, not, I wouldn't -call him--just of average weight, and I would say a light-complected, -to the best of my knowledge. - -Mr. BALL. When you say "average weight" what do you mean? - -Mr. McWATTERS. I figured just like I saw, the man, he looked like to me -the best way I can describe him would be 135 or 140 pounds. - -Mr. BALL. What about height? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, just like I told them, it looked like to me he -would probably be five-seven or five-eight, in that vicinity. - -Mr. BALL. Anyway, you were not able to identify any man in the lineup -as the passenger? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. As the passenger who had gotten on? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You said there was one man who closely resembled in height, -weight and color? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is right. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know who that was? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Just like I told them, I didn't know who was who or -anything. - -Mr. BALL. Did you ever learn who that person was? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I don't know whether that was really the man or -not, I don't know. - -Mr. BALL. I see. - -Now, I have a map here. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Representative FORD. All right, proceed. - -Mr. BALL. You remember you told us about the man that knocked on the -window of the door of your bus just before you got to Griffin, wasn't -it? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; along about the vicinity of Griffin Street, it -comes to. - -Mr. BALL. You let him on the bus, and he paid his fare, how much is -that fare? - -Mr. McWATTERS. It is 23 cents. - -Mr. BALL. 23 cents, and you went about down almost to Poydras. - -Mr. McWATTERS. Almost, between Poydras and Lamar. - -Mr. BALL. Between Poydras and Lamar, closer to Lamar than to Poydras? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. And a man got on. Was it the same man? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That was the same man who got on the bus that I picked -up, in other words. - -Mr. BALL. And the man you gave the transfer to? - -Mr. McWATTERS. The man I gave the transfer to when the woman--in other -words, when the man that got on Griffin Street there got off at the -same place she did. - -Mr. BALL. And he was only on the bus about 2 blocks? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Two blocks was the only distance. - -Mr. BALL. How long did it take you to go those 2 blocks? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Now, he paid as far as from St. Paul Street. I -made--there wasn't any traffic holding me up whatsoever, I come on -right down to where I picked the man up there, in other words, about -Field, and that is where the traffic was starting to back up to. So -the best of my knowledge I would say it took me 3 or 4 minutes to get -down there, so I will just have to say it was in the vicinity of around -12:40. - -Mr. BALL. In other words, how long was the man on your bus, the man -who got on, about Griffin and got off and you gave him the transfer, -approximately? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, he got on, and when he got on, I made that one -block, and then the other, well, I would be safe in saying he wasn't on -there 5 minutes. - -Mr. BALL. And you think he got off or on around 12:40? - -Mr. McWATTERS. 12:40 that is the best. - -Mr. BALL. What time did you say he got on approximately? - -Mr. McWATTERS. On the bus? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I would say in the vicinity from where I left -up there it would be probably it took me, I would say, 3 minutes to -come, let's see, it would be Ervay, Akard and Field, that is about 3 -blocks there where I left my time point which I would say just a rough -estimation it would be with no traffic would be 2 or 3 minutes, I would -say 3 minutes anyway. - -So, it must have been somewheres 12:39 or--so. - -Mr. BALL. When he got on the bus? - -Mr. McWATTERS. 12:40. - -Mr. BALL. And then he was on the bus about how many minutes? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, just like I say he wasn't on the bus over 4 or 5 -minutes, in other words, just made that 1 block there, and in other -words, when the traffic stopped, well, that is when he got off the bus. - -Representative FORD. During the time he was on the bus this man rapped -at your door or was your door open, and spoke up and said that the -President had been shot? - -Mr. McWATTERS. He was on the bus, you mean was the door open? - -Representative FORD. No. You previously testified that while you were -stalled or jammed up in the traffic---- - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. A man came to the door of the bus and indicated by -word of mouth---- - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. That the President had been shot. - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Now, was the man to whom you issued the transfer -on the bus at that time? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Now, the man who spoke up and said that the -President had been shot, how loudly did he say that? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, he said it loud enough that I guess everybody on -the bus heard him when he stepped up in the bus. - -Representative FORD. In other words, that would be your best impression -or best recollection that whoever said this, that the President had -been shot, said it loudly enough for not only you but the other bus -passengers to hear it? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. Because he stepped up in the bus and when he -made the statement in other words, he said that the President had been -shot, because I am pretty sure everybody--he said it to the fact. I -think that everybody, there might have been some, if there was anybody -in the extreme back of the bus, might not have heard it, but I think -anyone who was near the front part of the bus could have. - -Representative FORD. But at that time when this man made this -statement, there was a teenager sitting in the first cross seat on the -right-hand side of the bus? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. And the man who had gotten on the bus to whom you -later issued the transfer, was sitting in the second? - -Mr. McWATTERS. In the second seat. - -Representative FORD. What is the distance from the door of the bus -where the man was standing who made this statement to the second cross -seat? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I would say, let's see, it would be I would say 6 -or 8 feet. - -Representative FORD. Was he sitting alone in the second cross seat? - -Mr. McWATTERS. He was sitting alone. - -Representative FORD. Did you notice any reaction on the part of any of -your passengers to this comment by this man who made this statement? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the only reaction that I knew is when he got up -and said that, well, that is when the lady got off first, which she -jumped up and got her suitcase and said, in other words, made a remark -to something. "I am afraid you are going to be tied up here in this -traffic and I want to get off." - -Representative FORD. Where was this lady sitting who got up and asked -for this transfer? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Now, this lady was sitting behind me, in other words, I -am the driver. - -Representative FORD. On the left-hand side of the bus looking forward? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; in other words, it is a cross seat. I mean a -side seat, in other words, like the driver sitting here, the first seat -is the one that runs parallel with the bus, in other words. - -Representative FORD. Well now, the seat in which the lady was sitting -would be parallel to the second cross seat on the other side of the bus? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, in other words---- - -Representative FORD. It would be on the same line? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. The first seat would be ahead--the first seat on -the right-hand side of the bus would be ahead of the seat where the -lady was sitting? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, you mean the lady, I am referring to who got off -first? - -Representative FORD. Yes. - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, the lady--I was sitting in the driver's seat, she -was sitting right behind me, in other words, facing out his way. - -Representative FORD. But she obviously heard what the man said about -the President being shot? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. There is no doubt in your mind she heard that? - -Mr. McWATTERS. I wouldn't think so because when she got up and stated -she wanted to get off---- - -Representative FORD. Was she any further from the man who made this -statement about the President being shot than the man who was sitting -in the second cross seat? - -Mr. McWATTERS. She was closer to the man actually than the man that got -off with her was. - -Representative FORD. How many feet or how much difference? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the lady in other words, from the door here, it -is just two cross seats, and two seats where you sit sideways and then -the two seats in which he would be back here. - -Representative FORD. Could you diagram that as best as you can? - -Mr. BELIN. Congressman, we have a diagram. We have a picture of the -side of the bus. - -Mr. McWATTERS. Right here. - -Representative FORD. Sit down. - -Mr. McWATTERS. You can see it from this point right here, in other -words. You see this cross seat, in other words, these first two right -here, the driver's seat, you see the first two seats there, in other -words. - -Representative FORD. Could you sit down and mark it? - -Mr. McWATTERS. This is the inside, let's see, this is the driver right -here. Here is your cross seat right here. Here, about back here, is -where the lady got off who was sitting on this seat. - -Representative FORD. Will you mark that with an "L"? - -Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, right here. - -Representative FORD. Where was the man in the first cross seat sitting? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Right here is the first. Right here is where the man -that was sitting, got off, in this seat right here, I believe it is. - -Representative FORD. Will you mark that "M" where the man who was -sitting also got off who got the transfer? - -Mr. BALL. Maybe we had better use a black pen that will show better on -that glazed surface. - -Representative FORD. This is where the man was sitting who you issued -the transfer to at the same time the lady was issued the transfer? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. And the teenager was sitting in what seat? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Right here. - -Representative FORD. Will you mark that "O"? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Where was the man standing who came to the bus and -said the President had been shot? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Right here. - -Representative FORD. On the step? - -Mr. McWATTERS. On the step. I guess, I presume this would be the second -step there. To the best of my recollection he stepped up on the first -step. - -Representative FORD. Mark that "P." - -Mr. McWATTERS. "P." - -Representative FORD. Now, after the man who was standing at "P" said -the President was shot, what did the lady do who was sitting in "L"? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the lady, she had a suitcase sitting right there -beside me and she left. When the lady got up and said she would like to -get off the bus, and that she was going to walk to the Union Station -and asked me if I would give her a transfer in case that I caught up -with her, and asked me if I would pick her up. - -Representative FORD. You gave her a transfer? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. What happened? - -Mr. McWATTERS. She got off and by the time when she was talking to me -that is when he got up, this gentleman here in the seat got up, at seat -"M" got off. In other words, the door was never closed of the bus from -the time the gentleman stepped up in the door of that there, in other -words, when he said what he did, and got on back in his car, in other -words, the lady got off, and the man got off, too, both at the same -stop. - -In other words, the bus hadn't moved at that stop. - -Mr. BALL. I would like to mark this as the next exhibit, Commission's -exhibit, which will be the diagram of the bus with the initials "M," -"O," "L," "P," will be marked as Commission's Exhibit 373. - -Representative FORD. It will be so admitted. - -(The diagram referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 373 for -identification and received in evidence.) - -Mr. BALL. And a photograph of the interior of the bus, I would like to -have marked as 374. - -And a diagram of the bus itself showing front and side as 375. - -(The photograph and diagram referred to were marked Commission Exhibits -Nos. 374 and 375, respectively, and received in evidence.) - -Mr. BALL. I will hand you a photograph of the exterior of the bus. - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; in other words, that is the same bus number. - -Mr. BALL. That is right. - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is the bus it was. - -Mr. BALL. That is the bus. Number---- - -Mr. McWATTERS. 433. - -Representative FORD. So admitted. - -Mr. BALL. These are all admitted. - -Now, we have this map which is Commission's Exhibit 371. Can you show -me your starting point which is where you started your time on Elm and -what street? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is Elm and St. Paul. - -Mr. BALL. Will you mark an "X" there with your black pen, or let's take -red pen this time for you, on this same map, here it is right there, -that is where you commenced your time, is that right? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Put an "O" there. - -Mr. McWATTERS. Put an "O" here. - -Mr. BALL. Just circle that intersection. - -Mr. McWATTERS. O.K. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you went along Elm, westerly along Elm? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is right---- - -Mr. BALL. Put a "P" about the place where the man knocked on the window -of your door of your bus and got on. Here is Griffin. - -Mr. McWATTERS. This is Griffin right here, mark that with a "P". - -Mr. BALL. And put an "R" at the place where the man got off the bus. - -Mr. McWATTERS. Let's see. - -Mr. BALL. Here is Lamar. - -Mr. McWATTERS. Here is Lamar here. I want to find Poydras. - -Mr. BALL. That is right in here. - -Mr. McWATTERS. That would be, in other words, about the center here -would be, in other words, a little bit closer to Lamar than---- - -Mr. BALL. Put an "R" there to indicate the approximate position where -he got off. - -"O" is where you started, so you had better raise those up to Elm. The -place he got on and the place he got off. - -Perhaps, if you would just draw a line up and put your "R" it would be -easier. - -Mr. McWATTERS. On Griffin here now that is where you want---- - -Mr. BALL. Where he got on, wherever it was. - -Mr. McWATTERS. Is that where you want the "P"? - -Mr. BALL. That is where he got on? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. O.K. right here. - -Mr. BALL. And where he got off "R". - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is a very short block right in between Poydras and -Lamar here. - -Mr. BALL. All right. - -Now, let's use the map here. You made your start at St. Paul and Elm -didn't you, and went west. - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Now, you picked up a man who knocked on the window of your -bus at a place in the street that was not a bus stop, is that right? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct. - -Mr. BALL. And its approximate location was where? - -Mr. McWATTERS. At Griffin Street. - -Mr. BALL. And you have marked that as "P"? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Marked that as "P". - -Mr. BALL. That same man stayed on your bus until you got to what -location - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the location was between Poydras and Lamar Street. - -In other words, I would say closer to Lamar than to Poydras. - -Mr. BALL. At that point he got off the bus? - -Mr. McWATTERS. He got off the bus. - -Mr. BALL. And you gave him a transfer? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. And you have marked that "R", is that correct? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, yes. - -Mr. BALL. There is another map I would like to show you that hasn't -been marked yet as a Commission Exhibit, and I will have that marked as -376, a map of Dallas. - -You have already marked on this map, haven't you, or it has been marked -in advance then by someone. - -(The map referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 376 and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Now, take a look at this map and tell me if that map, the -blue line on the map, indicates your route on that day, where you -started in northeast Dallas? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, that is the original starting line there. - -Mr. BALL. What is the street? - -Mr. McWATTERS. I believe--I can't even see that small print on that. -That is Ellsworth and Anita, that is where it is coming back there. - -Mr. BALL. Ellsworth and Anita, and then you proceeded downtown along -that course, did you? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. This is Lakewood shopping center. - -Mr. BALL. Do you have an alternative route through there? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, in other words, that is where the main thoroughfare -starts right there at Gaston Avenue. Gaston right here which is the -main street when you leave this shopping center. - -Mr. BALL. You went down Gaston to Pacific? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Went down Gaston to, let's see this is Hawkins Street -right here. - -Mr. BALL. Then you went left on Hawkins to Elm? - -Mr. McWATTERS. To Elm Street, yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Then you went on Elm. - -Mr. McWATTERS. Went from Elm to, this would be Houston Street. - -Mr. BALL. Turned on Houston Street viaduct? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Left on Houston Street. - -Mr. BALL. To Marsalis? - -Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, this is the Houston Street viaduct and -this is Marsalis where you turn and come off Houston Street viaduct. - -Mr. BALL. Then you go south how far? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Go south all the way to, let's see, it is Ann Arbor. -This is all Marsalis right here. - -Mr. BALL. A straight run south? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Straight run. - -Mr. BALL. Then you make a turn and go back? - -Mr. McWATTERS. I make a turn, in other words, on Ann Arbor and in other -words, just circle, make a loop, just circle right around this little -shopping center here. - -Mr. BALL. And go back. - -Mr. McWATTERS. And right back down Marsalis. - -Mr. BALL. Marsalis is how far from Beckley? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Marsalis is, let's see---- - -Mr. BALL. This is Beckley here? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You can count the streets there, can you? - -Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, it would be seven blocks. - -Mr. BALL. Seven blocks, Beckley is seven blocks west of Marsalis, is -that correct? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Your bus line doesn't run down Beckley? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. It doesn't run seven blocks, close to Beckley? Have you seen -this? Here is Beckley and here is Marsalis, the bus line. - -Is there a bus route on Beckley? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; there is. - -Mr. BALL. Can you get a bus that goes down Beckley some place around -Houston and Elm? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; the bus comes, the Beckley bus comes in on -St. Paul and Elm, in other words, at the time that I was, before we -started, in other words, that is where the Beckley bus enters Elm -Street there and then he goes the same route through town. - -Mr. BALL. Same route you go down to the Houston viaduct? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. In other words, after the Book Depository down -there, he goes straight on. - -Mr. BALL. Let me ask you this: The Beckley bus, the bus that will take -you south on Beckley, has a starting point the same place as yours at -St. Paul and Elm? - -Mr. McWATTERS. St. Paul, in other words, the time element is the same. -In other words, he comes in there. - -Mr. BALL. Then that Beckley bus goes west on Elm the same as your bus? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. But instead of turning south on the Houston Street viaduct -the Beckley bus goes straight west on Elm, doesn't it? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct. - -Mr. BALL. Can you show us the bus stop for the Beckley bus on this -Commission Exhibit No. 361? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, yes; his last bus stop would be right here at the -corner of---- - -Mr. BALL. Let's put a mark on this. Here is a red pencil, and put a -mark on this in red and show us the place where the Beckley bus would -stop. - -Mr. McWATTERS. It would stop--in other words, we consider this corner -of this intersection right here, any letter or what. - -Mr. BALL. Just put a rectangular mark about the size of a bus -indicating bus stop--take black ink and indicating a place where the -bus would stop. - -Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, the bus would stop along in this place -right here. - -Mr. BALL. All right, now that is bus stop for Beckley bus. - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is bus stop for Beckley bus. - -Mr. BALL. Northeast corner Houston and Elm. - -Mr. McWATTERS. Northeast corner of Houston and Elm. - -Mr. BALL. The Beckley bus goes on across directly in front of the Texas -School Book Depository Building? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct. - -Mr. BALL. As your bus gets into another lane of traffic and does not -stop at Houston and Elm and makes a turn south on Houston. - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Then the Beckley bus stop, the stop of the Beckley bus, which -is in black ink on the northeast corner of Houston and Elm, we will -mark that with a big "B" which stands for Beckley bus. - -Representative FORD. How long have you been on this run that you had -the day of November 22? - -Mr. McWATTERS. I worked this run for, I would say, this is the second -year. This makes 2 years that I worked this. - -Representative FORD. Two years consecutively? - -Mr. McWATTERS. 2 years consecutively that I have been on this run and -worked it. - -Representative FORD. So you would be familiar with the route? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; just like I say, I worked it, this is the -second year that I have worked the same, in other words, the same -hours, and the same route. - -Representative FORD. How many hours a day do you work this route? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, now, this one particular route right here, I work -it only 2 hours and 35 minutes. - -Representative FORD. Each day? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Each day. - -Representative FORD. How many days a week? - -Mr. McWATTERS. 5 days, Monday through Friday. And after that, in other -words, I work on another, a different bus line. - -But this one particular one here is just 2 hours and 35 minutes each -day. - -Representative FORD. When you say a different bus line, you mean the -same company but a different route? - -Mr. McWATTERS. A different route. - -Representative FORD. You would be familiar with the time schedules and -all of the stops on this particular route from your 2 years' experience? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. May I ask a question? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Have you testified that you saw this passenger whom -you later recognized in the lineup, get on the bus in the vicinity of -Murphy Street--is Murphy Street on your right? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Murphy Street is the street that, in other words, that -comes in. - -Senator COOPER. Does it run into Elm Street? - -Mr. McWATTERS. It runs into Elm Street, it dead ends, in other words, -into Elm Street. - -Here is Field Street, in other words, across this intersection and we -stopped across the intersection of Field, and Murphy Street comes in to -the intersection at about where the bus stops, in other words, where -Field Street stops and I guess that Griffin is the next small street -that comes in just, it is just a short distance below. - -Senator COOPER. Well, did the passenger that you have testified about, -and whom you stated that you later identified, did he get on in the -vicinity of Murphy Street? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Murphy Street--you proceeded from Murphy Street toward -the Texas School Book Depository? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Is that correct? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct. - -Senator COOPER. Was the passenger that got on near Murphy Street the -same passenger that you later have testified about who told you that -the President had been shot in the temple? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, they told me later that it was, but at the time -they didn't tell me. - -Senator COOPER. Who didn't tell you? - -Mr. McWATTERS. The police didn't. - -Senator COOPER. When you say this passenger got on near Murphy Street, -was there anything about him that caused you to take notice of him -particularly? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, no, sir. I wouldn't say there was. He was, I would -say, he didn't have on no suit or anything, he had on, I believe, some -type of jacket, cloth jacket. - -Senator COOPER. What caused you to remember him getting on? - -Mr. McWATTERS. What caused me to remember? - -Senator COOPER. Yes; at the time he got on. - -Mr. McWATTERS. Because, the reason I remembered exactly because I -didn't put out but two transfers, and that, in other words, from where -he got on and everything, I didn't have but one, there wasn't but one -man on the bus and that was the teenage boy, when he got on the bus, in -other words, when he got off, he was the only man except the teenage -boy who was on the bus at the time. - -Senator COOPER. Now was this man that you saw got on the bus the same -one who told you that the President had been shot in the temple? - -Mr. McWATTERS. The man who got on the bus now? - -Senator COOPER. Yes. The man to whom you have just referred as getting -on the bus near Murphy Street. - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. - -Senator COOPER. Is he the same man who told you that the President had -been shot in the temple? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Who told you that? - -Mr. McWATTERS. A man in an automobile in front of me, in other words, -that was sitting in a car come back and told me. - -Senator COOPER. Told you what? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That the President had been shot, that he had heard over -his radio in his car that the President had been shot. - -Senator COOPER. I think you have testified that someone, some passenger -on the bus, in response to a question that you had asked, "I wonder -where they shot the President" said, "They shot him in the temple." - -Mr. McWATTERS. Oh, that was now, that was after we had done, that is -when I turned on Houston Street, the conversation with the teenage boy. - -Senator COOPER. It was the teenage boy who told you that? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; it was the teenage boy, sitting on his right -side of the side seat there, the one that I conversationed with about -the President being shot in the head or the temple, I don't remember, -but the teenage boy was the one. - -That was after the man that already got off that had boarded my bus up -around Griffin there. - -Senator COOPER. Then the one who told you the President had been shot -in the temple was not the one you later identified in the police lineup? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. - -Senator COOPER. This probably has been testified to, but where did the -man that you later identified in the police lineup get off the bus? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Got off between Poydras and Lamar Street. - -Senator COOPER. Was that after you crossed over the viaduct or before? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; that was before I crossed over. - -Senator COOPER. When did the teenage boy get off the bus? - -Mr. McWATTERS. He got off at Oak Cliff, I believe. He got off at -Marsalis and Brownley. - -Senator COOPER. Was that after the bus had crossed the viaduct? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is after the bus had---- - -Senator COOPER. Past the Texas Depository? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is about 3 or 4 miles out in the Oak -Cliff section where the teenage boy got off of the bus. - -Senator COOPER. From the time the man got on the bus, which you later -identified in the police lineup until he got off, had you noticed him, -had you looked at him again? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Had I looked at him again? - -Senator COOPER. Yes. - -Mr. McWATTERS. Not until just like I say he was sitting--I was talking -to this teenage boy and he was sitting right behind this boy, but I -didn't pay him any particular attention, to the man. - -Senator COOPER. You saw him get on the bus? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. - -Senator COOPER. Did you see him get off? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes; I gave him a transfer when he got off the bus, -the same place that was, the same place I was stopped where the man -come back and stepped up in the bus and told me what he had heard over -his radio in his car, the same place that the lady got off, with a -suitcase, is the place that the man got off. - -Senator COOPER. The man you later identified in the police lineup? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct; yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Did you pay any particular attention to him when he got -off? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Not no more than I did than, I think, when he got on. - -Senator COOPER. Do you remember anything about his clothes or his -general appearance in any way? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Just like I say, I remember he had on, to me he had on -just work clothes, he didn't have on a suit of clothes, and some type -of jacket. I would say a cloth jacket. - -Senator COOPER. I believe that is all. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't--as I understand it, when you were at the police -lineup, you told us that you didn't--weren't able to identify this man -in the lineup as the man who got off, that you gave the transfer to. - -Mr. McWATTERS. I told them to the best of my knowledge, I said the man -that I picked out was the same height, about the same height, weight -and description. But as far as actually saying that is the man I -couldn't---- - -Mr. BALL. You couldn't do it? - -Mr. McWATTERS. I wouldn't do it and I wouldn't do it now. - -Mr. BALL. You signed an affidavit for the Dallas Police Department, do -you remember that? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I will show you a copy of it, we can get the original if you -want, but there is a copy of it, a picture taken of it. - -Will you read it, please? - -(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.) - -Mr. BALL. This document, I would like to have marked as 377, at this -time, Commission Exhibit, with the understanding that we may substitute -the photostat for the original. - -Senator COOPER. Very well; let it be substituted. It has been -identified, and will be identified. - -Mr. BALL. Yes, it will be; I will identify it for the record as a -photostat of an affidavit of Cecil J. McWatters made before Patsy -Collins, Notary Public of Dallas County, Tex., November 22, 1963. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 377, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. BALL. Now, having read that, first of all, does that look like your -signature, Mr. McWatters? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; it does. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember the circumstances under which you made that -affidavit? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I just told them the best I could remember. - -Mr. BALL. I am showing this to you for the purpose of refreshing your -memory. - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, I know. - -Mr. BALL. I know it has been several months. - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, I know what you mean. - -Mr. BALL. And sometimes when you see something that you signed before -it refreshes your memory. - -Mr. McWATTERS. It sure does. - -Yes, that is what you mean, I know what you mean, I said that looked -like the man I saw. - -Mr. BALL. In this affidavit, it says, it mentions the fact that when -you went to Marsalis and picked up a woman. - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. You asked her if she knew the President had been shot, you -told us about that a few moments ago. - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. She thought you were kidding, and you told her, "I told her -if she didn't believe me to ask the man behind her, that he had told me -the President was shot in the temple." - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Was the man, was that the teenager? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, sir, that was the teenage boy. In other -words, he was, I would say, around 17 or 18 years old. - -Mr. BALL. You said here, "The man didn't say anything but he was -grinning." - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Do you think that happened? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, when the lady asked him, he just kind of grinned, -in other words, and she said, "This is not a grinning or laughing -matter," or something to that effect I don't remember just exactly what -she did say. - -Mr. BALL. Now you told them at that time you didn't know where you let -this man off. - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, I didn't at that time, I didn't know -where he got off. - -Mr. BALL. You told us a few moments ago you thought he got off another -place. - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, sir. - -Mr. BALL. What was that place? - -Mr. McWATTERS. He got off at Brownley, because the man rode with me the -next day. - -Mr. BALL. You went out there the next day, did you? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. With an FBI man or a Dallas policeman? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, I mean---- - -Mr. BALL. The same teenager? - -Mr. McWATTERS. The same teenager rode with me the next day. - -Mr. BALL. And you noticed he got off there? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, and I noticed, and I asked him, like I told him, I -said that I was--I thought that, you know, that he was, when he first -got on down there, I says, "From all indications, we had you kind of -pinpointed as the man who might have been mixed up in the assassination -and everything." And---- - -Mr. BALL. Do I understand the day after you made the affidavit, this -would be the 23d of November? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. That this same teenager got on your bus again? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, he got on. - -Mr. BALL. And you noticed where you let him off? - -Mr. McWATTERS. I noticed where I let him off, yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Is that the reason that today you remember he got off? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is it today I remember, just like I say, I remember -I talked to him the next day, and he told me where he got on, and he -told me where he got on, and where he got off and where he lived, and, -you know that---- - -Mr. BALL. Has he been on your bus since? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. He has? - -Mr. McWATTERS. He has rode with me since. - -Mr. BALL. Yes. I see. - -Did you give him a transfer that day? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, because he gets on and he lives within about two -blocks of the busline, in other words, where he gets off. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know this boy's name? - -Mr. McWATTERS. I believe his name is Milton Jones. - -Mr. BALL. Milton Jones? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Milton Jones. I don't believe I know where he lives, but -I pass where he lives. But he told me his name was Milton Jones and he -told me he was 17. - -Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you where he works? - -Mr. McWATTERS. He told me that, I believe, he goes to school half a -day, believe he said and I believe he goes home and he has a part-time -job, but he never did state where he works. - -Mr. BALL. Did he tell you where he went to school? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; he never did tell me where he went to school. - -Mr. BALL. Or where he worked? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Where he worked, either one. - -Mr. BALL. You notice in the affidavit there it says, "This -man"--referring to the man who was grinning---- - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. "This man looks like the No. 1 man I saw in the lineup -today." - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Who was the No. 2 man you saw in the lineup on November 22, -1963? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, just like I say, he was the shortest man in the -lineup, in other words, when they brought these men out there, in other -words, he was about the shortest, and the lightest weight one, I guess, -was the reason I say that he looked like the man, because the rest of -them were larger men than---- - -Mr. BALL. Well, now, at that time, when you saw the lineup---- - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Were you under the impression that this man that you saw in -the lineup and whom you pointed out to the police, was the teenage boy -who had been grinning? - -Mr. McWATTERS. I was, yes, sir; I was under the impression---- - -Mr. BALL. That was the fellow? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That was the fellow. - -Mr. BALL. You were not under the impression then that night when you -saw the lineup that the No. 2 man in the lineup was the man who got off -the bus, to whom you had given a transfer? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is what I say. In other words, when I told them, -I said, the only way is the man, that he is smaller, in other words, -he kind of had a thin like face and he weighs less than any one of -them. The only one I could identify at all would be the smaller man on -account he was the only one who could come near fitting the description. - -Mr. BALL. Let me ask you this, though. Did you tell them the man, the -smaller man, you saw in the lineup, did you tell them that you thought -he was the man who got off your bus and got the transfer or the man who -was on the bus who was the teenager who was grinning? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I really thought he was the man who was on the bus. - -Mr. BALL. That stayed on the bus? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That stayed on the bus. - -Mr. BALL. And you didn't think he was the man who got off the bus and -to whom you gave a transfer? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. At that time you didn't? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is why I say I pinpointed that transfer on that boy -as far as that is concerned. But at first, just like I say, I really -thought from the height and weight of the two men, I mean was just -like I say, was both of them were small. In the lineup they had, in -other words, bigger men, in other words, he was the smallest man at the -lineup. - -Mr. BALL. We have got--we have this diagram that you have already drawn -of the bus which has several initials on it. Could you tell me where on -the bus this lady sat who told the teenager it was no grinning matter? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, now, that is, in other words, I don't think at -that time--now this teenager was still on the bus near, but I had a -couple of more passengers on there, I believe I had two women on there, -but I can't recall just, when I picked her up where she sat down on the -bus. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember you said to the woman, "Look at that man -behind you?" - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, she was standing up here at the fare, paying fare. - -Mr. BALL. And the teenager was where? - -Mr. McWATTERS. He was sitting right here. - -Mr. BALL. At the place "O", is that right? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, at the place "O". - -Mr. BALL. I see. - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is where the conversation was going on. - -Mr. BALL. Mr. McWatters, that affidavit you have there, will you look -at another item you have there? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. "Today, November 22, 1963, about 12:40 p.m., I was driving -Marsalis Bus No. 1213." - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is right. - -Mr. BALL. First of all, you have referred to that as another bus, -Munger Bus, is that the same bus? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; in other words, that number there is my run -number right here on my card. - -Mr. BALL. I understand that, but do you call that run the Marsalis run -as well as the Munger run? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. Well, here you can--let me show you here on -this schedule right here, Marsalis, Ramona, Elwood and Munger. - -Mr. BALL. Can we take this and have a Xerox---- - -Mr. McWATTERS. You can just take the whole thing. - -Mr. BALL. All right. We will have a Xerox of this and mark it 378, a -Xerox copy. - -Will you identify that document and tell me what it is? - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 378, for -identification.) - -Mr. McWATTERS. This is a schedule, I will just say a bus schedule. - -Mr. BALL. That is for the Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood-Munger run? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct. - -Mr. BALL. Run 1213. Is this the run schedule that was in effect on -November 22, 1963? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. BALL. It shows here at St. Paul you were to leave at 12:36; is that -correct? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct. - -Mr. BALL. We will make a photostat of that and we will give you back -the original. - -Mr. McWATTERS. You can keep that if you want to. They made another copy -of it. - -Mr. BALL. All right, then, we will keep this as an original. - -Can this be introduced into evidence, Senator? - -Senator COOPER. Yes, let it be made a part of the evidence. - -(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission -Exhibit No. 378, was received in evidence.) - -Mr. BALL. I have a few more questions to ask you, a few more questions, -Mr. McWatters. - -Let's look again at this affidavit. - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. "I picked up a man on the lower end of town on Elm around -Houston," as I remember you didn't stop at Elm and Houston; you stopped -at Record and Houston for a pickup. - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember having picked up any man around the lower end -of town at Elm around Houston? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Elm and Houston? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, no, sir; I didn't pick up. I made a statement here I -picked up---- - -Mr. BALL. Take a look at it, "I picked up a man on the lower end of -town on Elm around Houston." - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, I didn't. I picked--"I picked a man up at the lower -end of town at Elm," no, sir, I didn't pick up no man. - -No, I was tied up in traffic there. Market Street is the--I must not -have read that very good when I signed that, because I sure didn't. No, -I didn't. - -Mr. BALL. Did you pick up a man at Record and Houston? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You didn't? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; that is not even no stop. - -Mr. BALL. In other words, this statement is not an accurate statement? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, sir, because in fact that day the police -wouldn't let nobody, in other words they run them buses through but -they wouldn't let nothing stop there, in other words. - -Mr. BALL. Let's get back to that lineup. - -Did you pick out one man or two men that night as people you had seen, -as a person you had seen before? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I picked out, the only one that I told them it was -the short man that I picked out up there. - -Mr. BALL. And you thought he was the teenager whom you described? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, first that is what I thought he was. - -Mr. BALL. Now you have named him Milton Jones. - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, he was---- - -Mr. BALL. Now you realize you were mistaken in your identification that -night? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is right. - -Mr. BALL. As I understand it, neither then nor now are you able to -identify or say that you have again seen the man that got off your bus -to whom you gave a transfer? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; I couldn't. I could not identify him. - -Mr. BALL. This Beckley bus that we talked about, remember the one that -has the starting point at St. Paul and Elm---- - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. The same as your bus, the Marsalis bus? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. What is the difference in the time run, what time does the -Beckley bus leave--let me withdraw the question. - -Your bus leaves St. Paul and Elm at 12:36, scheduled to leave there as -of November 22d? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Using the same schedule, can you tell me at what time around -12:30 or so that the Beckley bus would leave Elm and St. Paul and -proceed westerly on Elm? - -Mr. McWATTERS. He is scheduled in there the same time as I am, 12:36. - -Mr. BALL. 12:36. Was that bus in the line? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No. In other words, that bus was behind me, in other -words, because when I got there as a general rule, when we pull up -there every day, in other words, I am coming in one direction and he -is another, in other words, most every day, we will pull up at this -intersection at the same time. - -Now, whichever way the light changes is who gets, in other words, who -gets in front of who. But at that day, I am sure that I was ahead of -the Beckley bus. - -Mr. BALL. You are sure you were ahead of it? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Because there wasn't another bus in front of me. I was -the first bus down there that was tied up in there in the traffic. - -Mr. BALL. Did you see the Beckley bus? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You don't remember whether he was behind you or not? - -Mr. McWATTERS. I don't remember whether he was behind me or not. - -Mr. BALL. Can you transfer from your bus to the Beckley bus? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; sure can. - -Mr. BALL. Any particular transfer point? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, there are particular transfer points, but we don't -question anybody within the downtown section with a transfer. - -Mr. BALL. If you gave a transfer to your bus, then that transfer would -be good on a Beckley bus any place along Elm, wouldn't it? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, it sure would. - -Mr. BALL. Up to the place where you change courses? - -Mr. McWATTERS. It would be accepted; yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Your course is westerly on Elm, is identical with that of the -Beckley bus between St. Paul and Houston, isn't it? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct. - -Mr. BALL. And from that point you go south on Houston, and the Beckley -bus continues west on Elm? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct. - -Mr. BALL. So that would be a normal transfer point, wouldn't it? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Houston and Elm? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That would be a transfer. In other words, now, like I -say, Lamar is the general transfer point of where all the buses cross. - -Mr. BALL. Now, that night of the lineup, when you identified this one -short man---- - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. As being probably the teenager that had been on the bus---- - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Was there anything unusual in the conduct of anyone in the -lineup? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No. - -Mr. BALL. Did any man in the lineup talk more than anyone else? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, I believe they had a guy that asked them their -address, and they said, "address" and I don't know, he asked them, I -believe he asked some of them where they lived or some or them where -they worked, or I don't remember just what, in other words, he asked -some enough, every one of them to say some few words. - -Mr. BALL. You could hear them talk? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; you could hear them talk. - -Mr. BALL. Was any one man boisterous, mean, loud, anything of that sort? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, not that I could tell any difference. They all -talked to me as, in other words, you just asked them their name and -address. If they did, I didn't pay any attention to it. - -(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. BALL. This is Exhibit No. 376 that I will show you again. You have -indicated on the map the course of your bus south on Marsalis. Is there -any other bus route that goes south on any street east of Marsalis? - -Mr. McWATTERS. You mean that crosses it this way? - -Mr. BALL. No, goes south. - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, let's see. - -Mr. BALL. Is there a main highway called Denley? Is there a bus route -on Ewing? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. Bus route on Ewing. - -Mr. BALL. That goes south on Ewing? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Does that bus come anywhere near, does that bus run down Elm? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where does it turn to get to Ewing? - -Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, it turns, it goes just like the Marsalis -bus here goes, until he gets---- - -Mr. BALL. Let's start up at Elm here, Elm and Houston now. Does the bus -that goes down Ewing come west on Elm? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Does it go by St. Paul and Elm? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Have a starting point there? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; it is a final point for it right there. - -Mr. BALL. And it goes west on Elm? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Where does it turn off Elm? - -Mr. McWATTERS. It turns the same place as I do, in other words. - -Mr. BALL. South on Houston? - -Mr. McWATTERS. South on Houston. - -Mr. BALL. And then does it go across the Houston Street viaduct? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Then it turns on, how does it get onto Ewing? - -Mr. McWATTERS. It comes on out to Marsalis to, let's see, I have to -find the zoo. That is where it turns right there at the Marsalis -Park, and turns and goes over to Ewing, let's see, what is the name -of that--this bus turns to the left off Marsalis there, it is a -park--there is a big expressway there and it is the first street when -it crosses over the expressway where it turns off of Marsalis on -Opera. The name of the bus is Ramona, it is the same, in other words, -it is the same line as this other one. - -Mr. BALL. As I understand it now the bus that goes down Ewing comes off -the Houston Street viaduct as far as, comes down the Houston Street -viaduct as far as Marsalis, does it? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; and it goes south on Marsalis. - -Mr. BALL. It goes south on Marsalis? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is right. - -Mr. BALL. And it turns over to Ewing, that would be east on Ewing? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes; that would be east. - -Mr. BALL. At or about what point? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, in other words, that is the Marsalis Zoo is where -it is, after you cross the expressway there, it is the first street, -Opera is the name of that and it goes right down to Ewing. - -Mr. BALL. Then at the corner of 11th, at the intersection of 11th and -Marsalis both buses travel the same route? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; they sure do. Both buses travel the same route -to Marsalis and the Ramona bus on that part travel the same route. - -Mr. BALL. Probably on the same route. - -Now, I show you this document which is the bus schedule of -Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood-Munger, and it shows you leave St. Paul at 12:36 -and you arrive at Lamar 12:40. - -The bus transfers are punched you told me for 1 o'clock. We have a -transfer here that you have seen or we will show you in a few minutes -as soon as it gets here, which has a punch mark of 1 o'clock. You told -Senator Cooper that you usually punched within 15 minutes of the time -you reached the transfer points? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. If that is the case, what---- - -Mr. McWATTERS. You mean why did I have it punched at 1 o'clock? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. McWATTERS. Because I punch it p.m. In other words, I have a punch, -I am going to Lakewood, I mean I am going Marsalis and I am going back -Lakewood, so I just take me two books of transfers. Instead of punching -one of them a.m. and one p.m. I just punched them p.m. - -Mr. BALL. Do you punch within 15 minutes of the time you reach the -transfer points? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is the way that the transfers are supposed to be -cut. - -Mr. BALL. Well, if you reach Lamar, if you were to reach Lamar at -12:40, what time, according to the rules should you punch it? - -Mr. McWATTERS. I should have punched it at 12:45. - -Mr. BALL. At 12:45? - -Mr. McWATTERS. But I would have to punch one book a.m. and another one -p.m., so I just punched both of them p.m. - -Mr. BALL. In other words, what you do is punch on the hour rather than -the 45 and 15 minutes usually? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. In other words, your usual practice is not to punch on the -15-minute interval, is that right, but to punch on the hour? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, just like I say within the closest of the hour -like that, in other words. - -Mr. BALL. Suppose today you were wanting to punch some transfers at the -end of the line and you knew you were going to get to Lamar at 12:40. -Would you punch--what would you punch it? - -Mr. McWATTERS. I work that run all the time, I punch at 1 o'clock every -day. As I say I worked it 2 years and as I say in order to keep from -punching one of them a.m. and one p.m., for the difference in the hour -there, I just punch them p.m. - -Mr. BALL. I don't quite understand that. Doesn't your p.m. start at -after 12 o'clock? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the way the transfers are there, did you notice -how they was, they run them until--see how 12:45 there, in other -words, that is what they use that up to a.m. in other words. - -Mr. BALL. It is 12:45 a.m., it runs up to a.m. - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is what they run it to a.m. In other words, after -12:45 or in there, in other words, everything is punched p.m. - -Mr. BALL. In other words, everything in the hour from 12 on is punched -a.m., the day time, 12 to one is a.m., 12 to 12:45, for that hour, a -transfer good in that hour is punched a.m., is that right? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, it can be punched a.m. up to, just like 12:45. - -Mr. BALL. And the next punch is 1 o'clock and that is p.m.? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is p.m.; yes, sir. That is the way they have them. - -Representative FORD. The day that you punched this particular transfer, -November 22? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. You punched them the same that day as you did -every other day? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is right. Every day, in other words, I just punch -them p.m. I punch them p.m., and in other words, so it will be just a -straight cut across it. - -Representative FORD. Is that the usual practice for all bus drivers to -use this practice? - -Mr. McWATTERS. The practice they are supposed to cut them within the -quarter of the hour, but in other words, I just have been working that -run and I just, it is p.m., and I just make one trip one way and one -back the other, and so I--all I carry are two books of transfers and so -I just punch two books p.m., using one going one way at 1 o'clock and -the other coming back at 2. - -Representative FORD. This is the practice you have used for 2 years -approximately? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, when I worked that run, in other words, -when I am going one way at 1 o'clock, coming back from the other end of -the line I set them at 2. I am back in there at, my next trip I am back -in there at Lamar Street, I think it is 1:38 but I always just set them -at 2 o'clock. - -Mr. BALL. We have a couple of more pictures here. 378 and 379 which -are pictures of the interior of the bus--Nos. 379 and 380. (Picture -marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 374 is the same as -Commission Exhibit No. 379.) - -I will first show you 379. Is that a picture of the bus from front to -rear of your bus? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is the front and that is the rear. - -Mr. BALL. Here is 380, is that a picture of the bus taken from the -front taken looking towards the rear? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I offer these in evidence, too. - -Representative FORD. So admitted. - -(The pictures referred to were marked Commission's Exhibits Nos. 379 -and 380 and received in evidence.) - -Mr. BALL. I have here an exhibit which I would like to have marked as -381 which can be identified as a transfer issued by Dallas Transit -Company, Friday, November 22, 1963. - -Do you identify it, can you tell me, if you have ever seen that -transfer before? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, that is my punch mark right on that there; p.m. - -(The transfer was marked Commission Exhibit No. 381 for identification.) - -Mr. BALL. You issued it, did you? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. Tell me when you issued it, on what run? - -Mr. McWATTERS. I issued it on Marsalis and Munger line at I would -say, around to the best of my knowledge it would be around 12:40 or -somewheres in that vicinity on November 22. - -Mr. BALL. And it has your punch mark, has it? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is my punch mark. - -Mr. BALL. Identify it punched in the p.m. section? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Of the Lakewood column here on the transfer. - -Mr. BALL. When did you punch it exactly? Where were you when you -punched it? - -Mr. McWATTERS. I punched it before I left the end of the line, in other -words. - -Mr. BALL. This is number 004459, is the transfer number. Entitled "The -Shoppers Transfer." Every transfer has a separate number, has it? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; everyone has a separate number. - -Mr. BALL. What we would like to do is mark a photostat of the transfer -as 381A and substitute the photostat and we can return the transfer to -the custody of the FBI. - -Representative FORD. The exhibit will be admitted. - -(The photostat referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 381A and -received in evidence.) - -Representative FORD. How many of those transfers did you issue on this -particular run? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well---- - -Representative FORD. Up to the time you passed the Texas School -Depository. - -Mr. McWATTERS. I really don't know because I didn't, see. I didn't know -anything--I didn't put out any--most of the transfers that you put out -at this time or that time of day are for elderly women which get the -shopper's transfers, in other words. It has got a line there, and it -entitles them to a free ride back to where they came from, in other -words, and that time of the morning, because when I get downtown, in -other words, you can catch a bus at Elm Street going to any place that -I would go without having a transfer, in other words. - -Representative FORD. Would you have any recollection of how many -passengers you picked up from the beginning of the line to the time -that this man got on at the middle of the block on Elm Street? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I don't--I recall that I didn't have very many -passengers that day, because I figured that everybody had done gone to -town to see the parade, to see the President, and it just wasn't what -few passengers I recall was mostly elderly women that was going into -town. - -I don't recall just how many of them I did have on the bus. - -Representative FORD. But you did have these two men, the teenager and -this other young man? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that were on the bus. - -Representative FORD. And you very specifically recall giving a transfer -to this woman with the suitcase and the man who was in the second seat -on the right-hand side? - -Mr. McWATTERS. On the right side that got off. In other words, to the -best of my knowledge that is the only two transfers that I put out -going through town that I can recall at all, I mean, because I don't -recall putting out any more transfers than those two that I put out -when I was held up there in traffic. - -Mr. BALL. Mr. McWatters, on this transfer is the name of Shopper's -Transfer. - -Does that have any significance? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is what I was telling him. In other -words, if they want a Shoppers; well I put my punch mark in that -Shoppers there, which they cannot use it for a transfer, in other -words, any more than other than--all the stores, most of them in -downtown Dallas, if you buy as much as a dollar's worth between the -period of ten and four in the afternoon they give you a little white -slip which entitled you to ride what is called the Shopper's Pass. It -rides you back, but in other words you have to, a passenger has to, ask -for it in other words. - -When they say a Shopper, you take a punch and punch your punch mark -where it says Shoppers, but they are not supposed to use the transfer -then to transfer to another bus. They are supposed, in other words, -where it is punched in the store, get it exchanged for their return -fare. - -Mr. BALL. In other words, all your transfers have on them printed the -word "Shopper's Transfer"? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; they do. - -Mr. BALL. And in order to make it a Shopper's Transfer so that the -transfer can be exchanged for a merchandise coupon to ride home, it has -to have your punch in the Shopper's Transfer area, is that right? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct, yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did you know, did you remember, an elderly woman getting on -your bus some place on Elm after you left St. Paul? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Not that I recall. - -Mr. BALL. Do you remember when this man, do you remember when this man -knocked on your window, and you opened your bus and let him on, some -place around Murphy or Griffin and Elm, that an elderly woman got up in -the bus and moved? - -Did you see that or anything like that? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, I don't recall. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know whether or not you left an elderly woman off down -around in the Oak Cliff area some place? - -Mr. McWATTERS. The best I can recall I had two or three or four elderly -women, the best I can remember on the bus when I left town, but I don't -recall where any of them got off. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know a woman named Mary Bledsoe? - -Did you pick anybody up at St. Paul and Elm? - -Mr. McWATTERS. I really don't--I really can't recall whether I did or -not. - -Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. - -Senator COOPER. I would like to ask a few, if I may. - -Am I correct in saying that the direction of your bus at the time of -these events you have testified to it was going west on Elm Street? - -Mr. McWATTERS. West on Elm. In other words, west, the streets of Dallas -all run east and west. - -Senator COOPER. But when you got to Houston Street, then you turned -south? - -Mr. McWATTERS. I turned south, that is correct. - -Senator COOPER. Did your bus pass the Texas School Book Depository? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well---- - -Senator COOPER. I mean does it pass it directly? - -Mr. McWATTERS. It doesn't pass it directly, no, sir. In other words, -where I turn to the left on Houston Street, the book store is across on -the opposite corner. - -Senator COOPER. Now, as you reached Lamar Street, or did you reach -Lamar Street on that date before you passed near the Texas School Book -Depository? - -Mr. McWATTERS. You mean--yes, I have to pass Lamar Street before I get -down to there. - -Senator COOPER. Now, this first affidavit you made on November 22---- - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Which has been referred to in the testimony. - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. - -Senator COOPER. It stated in this affidavit that, "I picked up a man on -the lower end of town on Elm around Houston." - -Now, you picked up a man at that time it would have been after you -passed Lamar Street? - -Mr. McWATTERS. It would have been after I passed Lamar. - -Senator COOPER. The remainder of the affidavit, which has been made a -part of the testimony---- - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. - -Senator COOPER. Refers to that you picked up a woman and you asked her -if she knew the President had been shot, and then the man--you asked -her then to speak to the man behind her. - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. - -Senator COOPER. "Who said the President was shot in the temple." Now, -then, this incident that you testified to in this affidavit, was after -you had passed Elm Street? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is right. - -Senator COOPER. Was the man that you were talking about in this -affidavit the teenager? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. At the time this affidavit was made, were you asked -about any other man who may have been on the run that day at that time? - -Mr. McWATTERS. I don't remember whether I was or not. - -Senator COOPER. What was it then that caused you at some time later to -remember that another man had got on the bus near Murphy and had left -the bus, as you have stated in 2 or 3 blocks in the vicinity of Elm -Street? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, just like I say, the best I can remember is the -man, I believe in fact beside the boy, I believe he was the only man on -board the bus. After I got to recall, in other words---- - -Senator COOPER. But what I am asking you is what it was that caused you -to remember the teenager at the time you made this affidavit on the -22d, and what it was that, why it was that, you didn't at that time -speak of the other man who had got on the bus? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is what I say, it just didn't--it just doesn't -register, I don't know. - -Senator COOPER. Were you asked whether or not any other man was on the -bus? - -Mr. McWATTERS. I don't remember whether I was or not. - -Senator COOPER. When was it that you remembered about the second man -being on the bus, the man that you now state got on around Murphy -Street and got off at Elm? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well. I just studied and tried to remember everything -that I could. In other words, I still, you know, just try to see if I -could remember any incidents or anything that was said or done that I -hadn't thought of and everything. - -Senator COOPER. I think you stated you did not give the teenager any -transfer? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, I don't--no. - -Senator COOPER. Was the fact then that you were shown a transfer by the -police that called your attention to that? - -Mr. McWATTERS. I guess that would probably be---- - -Senator COOPER. Another man? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That would probably be the reason. - -I don't know of any other reason that it would be unless it was the -transfer, that I can recall. - -Senator COOPER. Are you absolutely certain that you did see another man -on that bus? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Do you mean the day? - -Senator COOPER. A man other than the teenager? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I picked up a man. - -Senator COOPER. Where? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Along about Griffin Street that knocked on the door of -the bus. - -Senator COOPER. Is that near Murphy? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is near Murphy, in other words, Murphy is over here -zig-zags, Griffin zig-zags across to Murphy. - -Senator COOPER. Why was it then that when you made this affidavit, you -wouldn't remember that a man knocked on the door to get in the bus? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Just like I say, I guess it never did dawn on me until -I just got to thinking about it and everything, and I had this boy, I -mean was the one I was referring to in that affidavit right there. - -In other words, he was just kind of a slight build, so far as him and -Oswald, I guess they probably somewhere in the same size, I don't know. -But I was mistaken in that, in other words, that was the boy right -there---- - -Senator COOPER. Did the police ask you if any man other than the -teenager was on the bus? - -Mr. McWATTERS. I don't recall whether they did or not. - -Senator COOPER. Did you tell the police at that time on the 22d or the -Federal Bureau of Investigation on the 23d about a man knocking on the -window and wanting to get into the bus? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, I believe I did. - -Senator COOPER. What is it about this transfer that makes you know that -it was a transfer which you issued? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, you look at that old punch mark, I guess as many -times as I have punched it---- - -Senator COOPER. Does each--does each driver have a different punch? - -Mr. BALL. When you weren't here he showed us his punch and he punched -it for us. He has got his punch. - -Mr. McWATTERS. Each driver has a different punch. They all are -registered. In other words, regardless of how many there are--that is -my punch right there--there is some shape or form different, just like -I say the superintendent has every man's name and a punch mark right on -down, in other words, so when---- - -Senator COOPER. Do you know whether the punches are different in the -shape that they make? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; no, sir; I don't know anything about that. I -know---- - -Senator COOPER. What you are saying is, then, you have punched so many -of these transfer that you recognize your own punch? - -Mr. McWATTERS. I can recognize my own punchmark. I don't think there is -supposed to be another---- - -Senator COOPER. Is there anything else on the transfer which indicates -that it was one which would be issued on your bus? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, except only where it is punched--in other words, -I come off of Lakewood Boulevard there where that would be the only -distinction right there, is the punchmark and the name of where I have -it punched there. - -Senator COOPER. Did anyone tell you, either the police or the FBI or -any other officer or any other person, tell you at the time you made -your first affidavit or later that there was another man reported to -have been on your bus and got off? - -Mr. McWATTERS. I don't recall. - -Senator COOPER. Have you ever reported to the police the fact that you -have carried as a passenger since November 22d the teenager whom you -have now identified as having the name of Milton Jones? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Did I ever report it to the police? - -Senator COOPER. Yes. - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Have they ever been back to talk to you any more about -this? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. - -Senator COOPER. About this matter? - -Mr. McWATTERS. They have never been back to me. The only time they have -talked to me---- - -Senator COOPER. Did you ever see---- - -Mr. McWATTERS. I beg pardon? - -Senator COOPER. You saw--was any of the men in the police lineup ever -identified to you as being Lee Oswald? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Any men in the---- - -Senator COOPER. Yes, I think you saw the men in the lineup, didn't you? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. - -Senator COOPER. Before you were asked to select a man in the lineup, -did the police or any officer identify any one of them as bearing the -name of Lee Oswald? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; they never stated anything. - -Senator COOPER. Later was he identified to you in any way? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Was he identified to me? - -Senator COOPER. As being Lee Oswald? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, they didn't tell me as far as saying, mentioning any -name Lee Oswald, it was never, the name Lee Oswald, I don't believe was -ever mentioned while we was back there. - -Senator COOPER. Did you ever see this same man you call No. 2 in the -lineup again--did you ever go back there after that time and see this -same person again? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Identified as No. 2? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; I never did go back any more, that was the only -time I was ever there was the one on November 22, about 6 something in -the afternoon. - -Senator COOPER. Have you seen photographs of a man who is named in -those photographs as being Lee Oswald? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Have I saw them? - -Senator COOPER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Well, now, you have seen this young man, Milton Jones, -several times since then? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Now after having seen him several times since then, -and having seen these photographs of the man who is identified as Lee -Oswald---- - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. - -Senator COOPER. Does Milton Jones look like Lee Oswald? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, they both, just like I say, about the same height, -and same build, and everything, as far as identifying looking at a man -in the face--of course, I know him now, distinctly. - -Senator COOPER. But at this time would you identify him as Lee Oswald -from the photographs you have seen of Lee Oswald? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Right now? - -Senator COOPER. Yes. - -Mr. McWATTERS. No. At the time, I couldn't then, in other words, even -from the recalling of what I seen him then, I mean just to say that the -height and size of him, no, I wouldn't make the statement that I could -now. - -Senator COOPER. Are you certain that you did see some man who knocked -on the window of your door of your bus and wanted to get in your bus at -some point near Murphy? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I am positive about that. There was---- - -Senator COOPER. You saw that man get off later? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. - -Senator COOPER. Before you got to---- - -Mr. McWATTERS. Before I got to Lamar Street, between Poydras and Lamar. - -Senator COOPER. That is all. - -Mr. McWATTERS. The best I can remember is that is where I issued two -transfers. That is the best I can remember. - -Mr. BALL. To clear this matter up with your punch, you have your punch -there, have you? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. - -Mr. BALL. That was issued to you by the Dallas Transit Company? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Does that make a different mark in a transfer than any other -punch issued to any other driver in the Dallas Transit Company? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. It is a distinctive mark? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; it is supposed to be, there is not supposed to -be any driver that has a punch that makes a punchmark like my punch. - -Mr. BALL. So your supervisor could take this transfer and compare it -with his list in his office? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is right. - -Mr. BALL. And he could see McWatters issued this transfer? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is right; that is the way, if they have any -complaint, any transfers brought in to him, he has a list. When he -looked at the punchmark he knows the man's name, and his badge number. - -Mr. BALL. And this document here which is 381, you have identified that -punchmark as the one made by your punch? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that punchmark was made by that punch right -there. - -Mr. BALL. Now, there are on this transfer two punches, there is one in -p.m., and there is marked punch Lakewood. Now, the p.m., refers to the -time? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. But Lakewood refers to a certain location on your run, -doesn't it? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. If this transfer was issued around the Lamar area or St. -Paul--Elm area, is there any place that you could punch and show that -particular location? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. - -Mr. BALL. You always punch at the end of your destination? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, that is the usual procedure on it. - -Mr. BALL. Now, on one side of Lakewood is Beckley, where is that? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, that is on the opposite of town from---- - -Mr. BALL. The other side is Capital. Where is that? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Capital, well, Capital is in north Dallas, I believe it -is. - -Mr. BALL. Are those Beckley lines listed on the transfer on your run? - -Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; I don't--you mean on the transfer? - -Mr. BALL. Yes. - -Mr. McWATTERS. Well, that is, in other words, we all--they have so many -of the lines listed, in other words, I believe they have two divisions, -I believe all the buses that work out of the east Dallas division -have---- - -Mr. BALL. We can make this pretty simple. You have on this transfer -certain names. When you are running Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood-Munger, how -many possible punches would--location punches would you make? - -Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, if I was--Marsalis when I left the end -of Marsalis out there I would punch my transfer Marsalis, if I left the -end of Ramona I would punch them Ramona. In other words, that is so -they can't ride them, in other words, they can't ride the transfer. - -Mr. BALL. Now, Lakewood is at one end of your run? - -Mr. McWATTERS. That is right. - -Mr. BALL. And Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood is the other, is that right? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. So you would punch one of those names? - -Mr. McWATTERS. Going that way, while at Marsalis, I would punch the -Lakewood when I would leave Marsalis coming toward Lakewood, I would -have Lakewood on the front of my bus but I would punch the transfer -Marsalis. - -Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. - -Representative FORD. Thank you very much, Mr. McWatters. - -Mr. McWATTERS. Thank you, gentlemen. - - -TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM WAYNE WHALEY RESUMED - -Mr. BALL. Mr. Whaley. I have here an exhibit which I will mark 370. - -(The document was marked Commission Exhibit No. 370 for identification.) - -Mr. BALL. 370 is a photostat of a manifest of yours, and it is dated -November 22, 1963. I mark this 370. Do you recognize that? - -Mr. WHALEY. That is the original trip sheet. - -Mr. BALL. In your handwriting? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; in my handwriting. - -Mr. BALL. I will offer this into evidence at this time, and the -original trip sheet as Exhibit No. 382. - -Representative FORD. So admitted. - -(Commission Exhibits Nos. 370 and 382 were received in evidence.) - -Mr. BALL. I have here a bracelet which is marked 383. Take a look at it -and tell me if you have ever seen it before. - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; as near as I can tell that is the bracelet he was -wearing the day I carried him, the shiny bracelet I was talking about. - -Mr. BALL. You mentioned the fact that the man who sat in the front seat -of your cab, which you drove from the Greyhound Station on Lamar Street -over to 500 North Beckley, had an identification bracelet on him. - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, it looked like an identification bracelet. It looks -like this one, sir, it was shiny, I couldn't tell exactly whether that -was the bracelet or not. - -Mr. BALL. But it looks like one of them? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; it looks like it. - -Mr. BALL. Offer this in evidence. - -Representative FORD. So admitted. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 383 was withdrawn and a photograph of the -bracelet was received as Commission Exhibit No. 383-A.) - -Representative FORD. What hand or what arm did he have it on? - -Mr. WHALEY. He had it on the arm next to me, which was the left arm. - -Representative FORD. Was it protruding below the sleeve or jacket? - -Mr. WHALEY. His coatsleeve was like this when he stretches his arm out -it was short, that is when I saw it. - -Representative FORD. Where was his hand when you saw it, if you can -recollect it? - -Mr. WHALEY. Well, just moving. You know you catch any bright object, -why you notice it, that is how I noticed it. He was just moving his -hand around. When the old lady stuck her head in the door and asked me -to call her a cab, why he reached over to the door to open it like he -told her she could have that one but she decided that she would wait -for the next one because he already had that one. And that is when I -saw it, sir. - -In the picture, I believe, I don't think he had it on in that picture -in the paper the next morning. - -Representative FORD. This is something you clearly noticed while he was -riding in the car with you? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I noticed it; yes, sir. I always notice -watchbands, unusual watchbands, and identification bracelets like -these, because I make them myself. I made this one. - -Representative FORD. In other words, you have a particular interest in -them? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, I particularly notice things like that. - -Representative FORD. Did you notice anything unusual about it? - -Mr. WHALEY. No, sir, it was just a common stretchband identification -bracelet. A lot of them are made of chain links and not stretchbands. -Stretchbands are unusual because there is very few of them. - -Representative FORD. In other words, this was an unusual band? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; this one was a stretchband like the one you -showed me. - -Representative FORD. It is sort of a hobby with you to make these kinds -of wristbands? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I make watchbands like that. - -Mr. BALL. Do you recall when you told, talked to the Dallas police -officers that you told them that you had seen a heavy identification -bracelet on this passenger's wrist? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir, I told them about the bracelet. - -Mr. BALL. You told the FBI officers, also? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; but I don't remember saying it was heavy because -I wouldn't have known how heavy it was without handling it. - -Mr. BALL. You described the bracelet? - -Mr. WHALEY. I just described the bracelet as a shiny bracelet. - -Mr. BALL. A moment ago you told us about this man getting into your cab -and an old lady coming up and asking for a cab. - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. Did the man sitting next to you open the door? - -Mr. WHALEY. He just started to, sir, just reached for door handle and -she said she wanted me to call one. She didn't want that. - -Mr. BALL. Did the man who was sitting beside you in the cab say -anything? - -Mr. WHALEY. Only that she could have that one. - -Mr. BALL. He said that? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. BALL. I think that is all. - -Any other questions of this witness? - -Did you describe the shirt that this man had on to the police? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir, I did. - -Mr. BALL. What did you tell them? - -Mr. WHALEY. To the best of my ability, I did, sir. I just told them it -was a dark colored shirt with what looked like a silver lining. - -Mr. BALL. Were you shown the shirt later? - -Mr. WHALEY. About, it was at least a week later, sir, an FBI man -brought the shirt over and showed it to me. - -Mr. BALL. Is that the same shirt you saw here? - -Mr. WHALEY. I think it is, sir. I am not positive but it had the same -kind of silver streak in it. - -Mr. BALL. What did you tell the FBI man who brought the shirt to you? - -Mr. WHALEY. I told him to the best of my ability that was the shirt he -had on. - -Mr. BALL. Did the man riding with you say anything at all except tell -you where he wanted to go? - -Mr. WHALEY. That is all, sir, except he said when we got to where he -wanted to go he said, "This will do fine," when I pulled over. - -Mr. BALL. Now, in the police lineup now, and this man was talking to -the police and telling them he wanted a lawyer, and that they were -trying to, you say he said they were trying to, frame him or something -of that sort---- - -Mr. WHALEY. Well, the way he talked that they were doing him an -injustice by putting him out there dressed different than these other -men he was out there with. - -Mr. BALL. Now, did anyone, any policeman, who was there, say anything -to him? - -Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; Detective Sergeant Leavelle, I believe it was, -told him that they had, would get him his lawyers on the phone, that -they didn't think they were doing him wrong by putting him out there -dressed up. - -Representative FORD. Did the man you identified have any reaction when -they brought the group out, did he have any reaction that you noticed -at the time you identified him? - -Mr. WHALEY. Only that he was the only one that had the bruise on his -head, sir. The only one who acted surly. In other words, I told this -Commission this morning you wouldn't have had to have known who it was -to have picked him out by the way he acted. But he was the man that -I carried in my taxicab. I told them when I identified him. I didn't -identify him as the man who shot the President. I identified him as the -man who rode from the Greyhound to 1500 North Beckley with me. - -Representative FORD. Did you point him out with your hand? - -Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; I did not. They asked me which number he was -standing under and he was standing under No. 2. - -Representative FORD. Could he hear you make this identification? - -Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; he couldn't see me. - -Representative FORD. He couldn't see you? - -Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; they had the black silk screen that keeps the -prisoners from seeing the people who show up. - -Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. - -Senator COOPER. I have no questions. - -Mr. BALL. Do you know a taxi driver named Darrell Click? - -Mr. WHALEY. I may know his face, sir, but not his name. - -Mr. BALL. You don't know his name? - -Mr. WHALEY. We go mostly by numbers. - -Mr. BALL. Okay, no further questions. - -The witness is excused. - -Representative FORD. May we wait just a moment, please? Would you like -to make a statement, Mr. Powell? - -Mr. POWELL. Mr. Chairman, I think I might say just this: I am here -representing Mr. Walter Craig, as I think the Commission understands. -I have been here the last two days. In a conversation with Mr. Rankin -yesterday morning we agreed that rather than my asking questions -directly of witnesses, I would make suggestions to Mr. Ball or to one -of his associates, and I have been following that practice yesterday -and today, after consulting with Mr. Murray who is also here for -Mr. Craig, and Mr. Ball and his associates have followed up these -suggestions that we have made. - -Representative FORD. The suggestions you have made have been -transmitted to Mr. Ball or his associates and have been asked of the -various witnesses? - -Mr. POWELL. That is correct. - -Representative FORD. Any other questions? - -Thank you very much, Mr. Whaley. - -Mr. WHALEY. Thank you, sir. I am glad to be able to be of service. - -(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -_Friday, March 13, 1964_ - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. KATHERINE FORD, DECLAN P. FORD, AND PETER PAUL GREGORY - -The President's Commission met at 9:10 a.m. on Friday, March 13, 1964, -at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. - -Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Gerald -R. Ford, member. - -Also present were Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; Norman -Redlich, assistant counsel; and Charles Murray, observer. - - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. KATHERINE FORD - -The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. - -Mrs. Ford, I would just like to read to you a short statement -concerning the purpose of the meeting. - -I think you have had a copy of it but I will just read it for the -record. - -Mrs. FORD. Yes, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. The purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of -Mr. and Mrs. Declan P. Ford and Mr. Peter Paul Gregory. The Commission -has been advised that Mr. and Mrs. Ford made the acquaintance of the -Oswalds shortly after their arrival in the United States in June -of 1962, and that Mrs. Marina Oswald lived in the Ford home on two -different occasions in November 1962, and for a period following -February 12, 1964. - -The Commission has also been advised that Mr. Gregory was contacted by -Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald shortly after Mr. Oswald's return from Russia as -a result of which Mr. and Mrs. Oswald made the acquaintance of a large -number of Russian-speaking people in the Dallas and Fort Worth area. - -Since the Commission is inquiring fully into the background and -possible motive of Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged assassin, it intends -to ask the above witnesses questions concerning Mr. Oswald, his -associations and relations with others and any and all other matters -relating to the assassination. - -Would you please rise and be sworn, Mrs. Ford. - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before the Commission will -be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you -God? - -Mrs. FORD. I do. - -The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated. Mr. Liebeler will conduct the -examination. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? - -Mrs. FORD. My maiden name? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mrs. FORD. Katrina Evstratova. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born, Mrs. Ford? - -Mrs. FORD. Nova Tchkarsk. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell us just briefly how you came to come to -the United States, Mrs. Ford? - -Mrs. FORD. How I came to the United States; I was in Germany during the -war. I was taken there by Germans, not in concentration camps, but in -labor camp, and after we were liberated by Americans I got acquainted -with an American soldier and was married to him, and that is how I came -straight to Dallas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was this soldier's name that you married? - -Mrs. FORD. Skotnicki. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you were married to him in about 1946? - -Mrs. FORD. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you subsequently divorced him? - -Mrs. FORD. Approximately 4 years ago, a little over 4 years. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I want to ask you a few questions about Mr. Skotnicki and -some of the people that he knew. - -Do you still have any friends that were your friends when you were -married to Mr. Skotnicki? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; I would think, some neighbors, I would say that we -would be still--we don't see together, acquaintances together with -those friends but I am sure they are still friendly. He is still -friendly with the same people as I am. I would say Campbells down on -6468 Lane, the old house still stands there I would think he would -still be friendly with them, and I know them very well. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't continue to see Mr. Skotnicki in any way, do -you? - -Mrs. FORD. No, no; I have no reason for it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not Mr. Skotnicki has a friend by -the name of John M. Grizzaffi? That is spelled G-r-i-z-z-a-f-f-i. - -Mrs. FORD. I think that he is friends, yes. It is a neighbor across the -street. He was friendly with that man. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us just a little bit about Mr. Grizzaffi, -if you know about him? - -Mrs. FORD. I think he is in grocery business, that is what I know about -him, and I believe, I wouldn't say he is busy in local politics but -he is always talking about people he knows around town that are in -politics, and that is about all I know. I was never very friendly with -his wife and so I just know a little bit about him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Mr. Grizzaffi is a friend of Jack -Ruby's? - -Mrs. FORD. That I don't know. I was told by my son that Mr. Grizzaffi -knew Ruby. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your son told you that? - -Mrs. FORD. My young son. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is you son's name? - -Mrs. FORD. My son's name is Gary. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How old is he? - -Mrs. FORD. Twelve. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He is a son by Mr. Skotnicki? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is he living with you and Mr. Ford? - -Mrs. FORD. He lives with me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Mr. Skotnicki knew the Oswalds? - -Mrs. FORD. No; I don't think he did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he knew anything about the Oswalds? - -Mrs. FORD. Unless something was told by my son or something, by -children. I don't think he knew them personally. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You yourself didn't have any conversations with Mr. -Skotnicki about the Oswalds? - -Mrs. FORD. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I want to go through a list of names which I will go -through fairly quickly and ask you if you recognize any of these names -or if you know any of the people. - -Do you know a gentleman by the name of George Senator? - -Mrs. FORD. No; I don't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How about a man by the name of Ralph Paul? - -Mrs. FORD. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Andrew Armstrong? - -Mrs. FORD. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a lady by the name of Karen Bennett? - -Mrs. FORD. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Bruce Carlin? - -Mrs. FORD. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a man by the name of Roy William Pike? - -Mrs. FORD. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How about Larry Crafard? - -Mrs. FORD. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You yourself don't know Jack Ruby in any way? - -Mrs. FORD. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Does Mr. Ford know Mr. Ruby? - -Mrs. FORD. No; I don't thing so; no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a lady by the name of Earlene Roberts? - -Mrs. FORD. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mary Bledsoe? - -Mrs. FORD. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Bertha Cheek? - -Mrs. FORD. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. John Carter. - -Mrs. FORD. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How about Mr. and Mrs. A. C. Johnson? - -Mrs. FORD. A. C. Johnson, I don't think so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any connection between Mr. Oswald, Lee -Harvey Oswald and Jack Ruby? - -Mrs. FORD. No; I don't know. I don't know that they knew each other. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell the Commission, Mrs. Ford, how you first -met the Oswalds? - -Mrs. FORD. We were invited there after lunch, the Oswalds had a -luncheon at Anna Meller's house, and we were invited after luncheon to -meet them, and that was our first contact with them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me when that was, approximately? - -Mrs. FORD. I would say it was approximately at the end of August of -1962. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us who was at the luncheon? - -Mrs. FORD. I believe there was Mr. and Mrs. Ted Meller and George Bouhe -and the Oswalds and ourselves, I believe that is all I remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who first told you about the Oswalds? Did you hear of -them the first time that you came to that luncheon or had you heard of -them before? - -Mrs. FORD. I had heard of them maybe a couple of weeks before from Mr. -George Bouhe, I believe, who had told us that there was a young Russian -girl came to Fort Worth and the man was out of a job, and that was the -reason for us to try to help them. And she had a baby and so forth. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Bouhe tell you anything else about the Oswalds? - -Mrs. FORD. No; he was just telling that the man was having a very hard -time finding a job because the last job he had was in Minsk or so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that Mr. Oswald had been in Russia? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; he did. He told us about that he was in Russia and -decided to come back and he brought a Russian wife with him who didn't -speak English and had a tiny baby and both were having a very hard time -at the moment. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Bouhe tell you anything about the circumstances -under which Mr. Oswald went to Russia? - -Mrs. FORD. No; nothing like that was discussed. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At the luncheon at which you and your husband, and Mr. -and Mrs. Meller---- - -Mrs. FORD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And Mr. Bouhe were present---- - -Mrs. FORD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was said at that time? - -Mrs. FORD. At the time we were present, actually, I was only interested -in economic conditions of Russia at the moment, for me to compare them -with the time I was living there, and they were showing some pictures -of Minsk and Leningrad and some of the pictures of some of the friends -of Marina's friends, girl friends. - -(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with the Oswalds at that -time about the kind of apartment that they had when they lived in Minsk? - -Mrs. FORD. I don't remember any particulars about that apartment, but -they were talking about, I think, about the apartment, I don't know -exactly what was said about it. I know it was, I think I remember they -were saying they lived in one room and sharing a kitchen. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you how they came to meet each other in -Russia and how they came to be married? - -Mrs. FORD. It wasn't said at that particular time, but I remember -Marina was telling me afterwards how they came to meet each other, and -I believe it was at a dance some place at the Hall of Culture or some -place they would have in Russia dances, and she met him there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Of the people that were at this luncheon, aside from -yourself, how many of them were originally born in Russia? - -Mrs. FORD. Mr. Bouhe and I believe and Mr. Meller would be--I believe -Ted Meller was born in Poland. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did it appear to you at the time of that luncheon that -Lee Harvey Oswald lived like other Russian people lived or did it -appear that he might have received preferential treatment in some way. - -Did you gather an impression about that during the course of your -conversation? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; I believe he was still in something of a hardship in -living in Russia, that was the reason for his leaving Russia. That it -was rather difficult to make his ends meet as we say, because he was -comparing it with his living standards of Marina's uncle who was a -colonel or a major, I don't know, I wouldn't say because I don't know. -He was saying that they had a very lovely apartment consisting of maybe -four or five rooms and he was comparing it with his apartment, and such. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he compare his apartment with the apartment of other -workers who worked in Minsk? - -Mrs. FORD. No; I don't think so. He was just comparing, I believe with -her uncle. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much money he was paid at his job? - -Mrs. FORD. I don't remember, he was saying or Marina was saying -something, 80 rubles, I don't know which one gave me that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate whether that was about the same that -other people were paid or more? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; about the same as the workers were paid. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, is there anything else you can remember about that -luncheon, the conversation at that luncheon which you would like to -tell the Commission about other than what we have already touched on? - -Mrs. FORD. Well, I don't know what was important. I know he was -saying--my husband made a sort of a joking statement that he had a -child born in Russia, and he said, well, if it wasn't for the Americans -she wouldn't be born over there because he had to wait so long to get a -visa, I don't know what else he said. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was a visa for him to return? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; and the little girl, June, was born there because of -that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And Lee Oswald blamed the Americans for causing the delay? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate what attitude the Russian authorities -took when he told them he wanted to come back to the United States? - -Mrs. FORD. No; I don't know. He didn't say anything. I don't remember -discussing it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say anything about the attitude they took toward -letting Marina leave Russia and coming to the United States? - -Mrs. FORD. I don't believe anything was said about that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything else you can remember about that -luncheon now you think we ought to know about? - -Mrs. FORD. Well, I am thinking, I really don't think I remember -anything else. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was the next contact then that you had with the -Oswalds? - -Mrs. FORD. I think it must have been at--in late October or the first -part of November when Mr. Bouhe called me and said that Marina made a -call to Anna Meller and told her she is leaving her husband because of -she can't stand the beating and treatment any longer from Lee Oswald, -but none of us knew at the moment that he had mistreated her that way, -but at the time at the party I remember seeing Marina with bruises on -her face and she made excuses of running into a door or something at -the night when attending the baby. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This was the first time you saw her? - -Mrs. FORD. That is right, the first time I saw her I did see bruises on -her face. And George Bouhe was saying that Anna Meller, I don't know -who picked her up, I believe George Bouhe because Anna Meller don't -have a car, they went to Marina's apartment and picked up the baby -things, playpen, and other things that she could take with her at the -time, and she stayed there, I couldn't say how many days. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Stayed with Mrs. Meller? - -Mrs. FORD. With Mrs. Meller, I don't think it was longer than a week, -and then my husband was supposed to go away for a week or so; I don't -remember the time, I thought he was going--he said he had to go Austin -and I told Mr. Bouhe that I could take her for a week, just take her -in, if she didn't have a place to go, so I did, and she stayed with me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Why did she come to you as opposed to staying with Anna -Meller? - -Mrs. FORD. Anna Meller has a small two-room apartment and I have a -bigger house. We have four bedrooms so I could make room for her and -her children. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When Mr. Bouhe called you and told you about this, did he -tell you anything about why Marina was leaving Lee Oswald? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; he said because of mistreatment and she decided she is -not going to return to him any longer, and Mr. Bouhe said, told her, -if she made a promise to him she is not going to return to that man he -will help her all he could to find a place to stay permanently such -as maybe as help at home at somebody's house until she learns enough -English to start going on her own whatever she could do. - -And I think he was trying to do, he was trying to find a place and that -is the reason before that she needed a place to stay until she did find -a place, and I kept her for a week until my husband returned and then -another friend of mine, who also has a fairly large place where Marina -could be comfortable, she told me she could keep her there for as long -as Marina wished to stay. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did Marina actually get to your place? Did Mr. Bouhe -bring her to your place? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; he did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how long Marina stayed with Anna Meller -before she came to your place? - -Mrs. FORD. It could be a week but I am not sure. But I don't think it -is longer than a week. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lee Oswald come to see Marina while Marina was at -your house? - -Mrs. FORD. No; he did not but he did talk to her on the telephone, I -think approximately after 3 days, after she stayed with me he called -her up every night, I think he did call, every evening. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina talk to him on the telephone? - -Mrs. FORD. She was hesitating at first but he wouldn't leave the -telephone until she came to telephone and she was talking to him. I -didn't hear what he was saying but she was telling him not to call on -her again and not to bother, she was not going to return to him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you what the conversations were about? - -Mrs. FORD. No. She did not say anything. - -Representative FORD. When was this period that she stayed with you, -October and November of 1963? - -Mrs. FORD. I believe it must have been the first part of November. - -Representative FORD. Of 1963? - -Mrs. FORD. 1962. - -Representative FORD. 1962. - -Mrs. FORD. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did Marina Oswald pay you anything for the privilege -of staying at your home at that time? - -Mrs. FORD. No; I did not expect it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any arrangement she would work in the house? - -Mrs. FORD. No; there was no arrangement; no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what Marina told you while she was staying there -about her relations with Lee Oswald and particularly as to why she -separated from him and what the difficulties were in their marriage? - -Mrs. FORD. I think mostly it was a mistreatment by him that she -couldn't stand any longer, she was saying. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mistreatment by him? - -Mrs. FORD. Mistreatment by him; yes. That is what she was saying. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you any more specifically than that what the -problem was? - -Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't really. She did not elaborate. She did not go -into explanations of their living together. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she mention that Lee Oswald was jealous of the -Russian friends that Marina had? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; she did. She told me that, that he was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did they argue about that? - -Mrs. FORD. Well, I didn't know if they were arguing about that. I know -she said that he was very jealous of them helping Marina and jealous -for the reason that he wasn't able to provide her at the time with any -of the things that they were giving Marina, clothes, and baby clothes, -and I think that he was--it was making him rather mad because he said -he was unable to buy the things for her at the time, and I know that he -was not accepting things people were giving him. He was telling her not -to take them but she was taking them because she needed them. I suppose -they were arguing about that but I don't remember the particulars. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression at the time that Marina lived -with you for that week as to what the cause of their difficulties might -be? - -Mrs. FORD. She mentioned one time that soon after marriage he told her -he didn't love her any more in any way. So I don't know what is the -difficulty, I don't know if that is what she mentioned. She did not -explain and didn't go into explanations of this. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think, did you form an opinion as to whether this -separation and the difficulties they were having was primarily the -result of Oswald's behavior or did you think Marina might have been -partially responsible for it, what did you think? - -Mrs. FORD. My own opinion was that Marina was responsible for it. I -think Marina was and I think now she is a rather immature girl. - -The CHAIRMAN. She is what? - -Mrs. FORD. I think she is rather immature in thinking. - -The CHAIRMAN. Oh, yes. - -Mrs. FORD. And a lot of times she agreed herself about provoking him in -a way by arguing about his mother or things of some sort. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you about arguments concerning his -mother? - -Mrs. FORD. Well, I don't know really. She would say something that he -was badly brought up or something like that. - -Representative FORD. He was what? - -Mrs. FORD. Badly brought up, some sort of thing, and he would get mad -and slam her for that or something and then he was telling her not to -let mother in, and when mother comes to the apartment she would let her -in and then they would argue over that. - -Representative FORD. He would tell her not to let the mother in? - -Mrs. FORD. That is right, and she would because she said she just -couldn't do that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you at that time what her feelings toward -Lee's mother were? - -Mrs. FORD. I don't remember her saying anything one way or the other if -she liked her or didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether Marina might have mentioned that -Lee Oswald had spoken to a neighbor and told the neighbor that Marina -was from Czechoslovakia? - -Mrs. FORD. No; I don't know of anything like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know at any time that Oswald didn't want -people to know that his wife was from Russia? Marina didn't mention -that? - -Mrs. FORD. Not around us, we didn't because we knew it anyway. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Marina didn't mention anything like that to you? - -Mrs. FORD. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When Marina lived with you during that time did she tell -you anything about her background in Russia, did she tell you about her -birthplace and youth in Russia? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; she was going into more of that in talking with me -more than anything else, I think. Actually most of the time she was -talking about her friends during, I think about when she was going to -school, about her boy friends and things she was talking to me about -her friends and she did go into talk about when she lived in, let's -see, it is not Ukraine, I think it is Bessarabia, right now where would -that place be, to live there, and she was very young, I believe, let's -see she was born during the war, and they were sent somewhere, I don't -know where they were sent, but then she lived there in Bessarabia for -a few years, because there was a lot of food there and vegetables and -they were sent there, to feed, like they sent the cattle to be fed -up, I believe that is the expression she used after the war where the -children could eat a lot of fruit and then she returned to Leningrad, I -believe. - -I don't know how long she lived in Bessarabia. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you about her life in Leningrad, just -briefly, if you will summarize it for us. - -Mrs. FORD. Well, really, I don't know--the only thing I knew was about -some of the things she was telling me about friends she had there, she -had a friend that was a medical student and she told me she talked a -lot on the telephone to him, and she was rather, I thought that is -where I made the impression to me, it made an impression to me she was -immature, she liked to talk to the man for a long time in the evening -but she was afraid to be seen with him in the streets, he was ugly, so -I thought it was rather strange, you know, and then---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you who she was living with in Leningrad? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; she was living with her stepfather, that is what I -remember, living with a stepfather she was telling me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you about her relations with her stepfather? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; she did. She didn't like him and I think he doesn't -like her, either; they never did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you any reasons why she did not like him? - -Mrs. FORD. She was telling me a lot of times, she was telling me about -her mother, the mother didn't want to show affection to Marina or -something like that because the father was jealous of that affection, -and I think he did some sort of a cruel thing to her once that she -doesn't--she still remembers as being very cruel, something of accusing -her of taking some family silver and selling it while she knows that -he had pawned the silver for buying liquor, because it showed up, she -couldn't explain it to her aunt and it just made her feel very bad at -that time. - -I think she just could never forgive him for that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you about her move to Minsk? - -Mrs. FORD. Well, she didn't tell me at that time. I just found it out -not too long ago that was the reasons she wanted to get away from a -friend that she found out later that he was married, she went with him -for a short while she did not know he was married, but she did not go -into particulars of explaining the whole thing to me. - -Representative FORD. She was going with a man who was married? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes. She met him somewhere, she had two tickets, she said, -to a theater or to a movie, and she wanted to sell one ticket and he -was the person who bought the ticket and they sat together in a movie -house and later on, I believe, I don't know how they got to know each -other later on, it was a few times they met, they have seen each other -and at one time she went to his apartment, to the house that he lived, -to call on him, and someone said that, "oh, that is the man who has -that little boy," and she said she just turned around and went home. -That is the time she found out he was married and was deceiving her. - -But I don't know why she left, I mean why, exactly she left but I think -this is the person that was her reason for leaving Leningrad. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that she had left in part at least to -get away from this man? - -Mrs. FORD. That is what I understood. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did Marina tell you why she married Lee Oswald when -she was in Russia, did she talk to you about that? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; she did. - -I don't exactly know why she married him. But she said she met him at a -dance, and soon after that, I don't know the reason why he was in the -hospital but he was in a hospital, and she called on him, and I don't -know how long he stayed there, either, and she liked the man, I think, -and she bought him an Easter Egg, that was during Easter sometime and -he was very surprised that such a thing could be done in Russia. - -I think it rather pleased him very well. She said somehow she felt -sorry for the man because none of her friends liked him, and mistrusted -him, and she felt sort of like she was on the defensive, she wanted to, -she felt sorry for him in a way. - -Representative FORD. Did she tell you why her friends didn't trust him? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; she said they were thinking that he was an American -spy or something like that, that is what they were trying to tell her. -"Maybe he is a spy, and how can you trust a man like that?" - -She told me the other day, she says no one trusted him, but she says, -"I wasn't afraid of him," that is how she put it. - -Representative FORD. Did Marina indicate to you whether she thought or -had any reason to believe that Oswald was a spy? - -Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't. She didn't think so. She never said that, I -mean. - -Representative FORD. Did Marina ever indicate to you or did you gather -that one of the reasons that Marina married Lee Oswald was she had the -possibility of leaving the Soviet Union in mind? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes. She never did go out directly and say that but I think -I got an impression that was her reason. She was telling me that way -before she met Oswald she was dreaming of coming over here, and that -is, I mean gathering by that later I thought that she wanted to come -over, and he was, I suppose he was a reason. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In this connection, I wanted to ask you whether you ever -had any contact with any newspaper reporters from the Dallas newspapers -about this, did they ask you about this at any time? - -Mrs. FORD. About this I don't remember if they asked me. I don't -remember. But a couple of reporters came to my house soon after the -assassination and talked to me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I represent to you that there was a story in the November -27, 1963, issue of the Dallas Times Herald which told about some -Russian-born woman in Dallas to whom Marina had supposedly confided -some of the most intimate secrets of her stormy marriage, in the words -of the newspaper article. Do you have any knowledge whether that would -be you or somebody else? - -Mrs. FORD. I think that would be me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the reporters that Marina had told you that -Marina had felt sorry for Oswald because everybody hated him even in -Russia? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; I might have said that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Marina did say that to you? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; she did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you anything at this time about their -trip back to the United States and the difficulties that they -encountered, or how they did it, that sort of thing? - -Mrs. FORD. No; I never talked with her about that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any conversation while Marina stayed with you -during that week in November 1962, about the possibility of a divorce, -of her divorcing Lee Oswald? - -Mrs. FORD. The possibility--I know she didn't want to go back to him at -the time she stayed with me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't remember any specific conversation? - -Mrs. FORD. No; I don't remember any specific conversation. - -Mr. LIEBELER. About divorce? - -Mrs. FORD. Frankly, there was talk about it, she didn't want to go back -and I just told her, I felt that Marina wasn't really the domestic type -she could stand very long being a help at home, not that I think she is -not capable of taking care of her own house. I see now since she has -got even her own place she keeps it very clean and her children are -always neat. But she wasn't right for domestic help and I told her to -stay with Lee, that is what I told her myself, and wait until she could -be able to take care of herself other than working in a house. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did she say about that? - -Mrs. FORD. She didn't say, she was really just listening, I think, and -she didn't say anything. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina say anything to you at this time about wanting -to go back to Russia? - -Mrs. FORD. No, no; she didn't want to. - -In fact, she told me that Lee soon after he came to the United States, -he was telling her that he would want to go back because he couldn't -find a job here and he was, of course, seeing a lot of difficulties for -himself, and Marina said, "If you want to go back, you can go but I am -not going," that is what she told me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Marina told Lee if he wanted to go back he could but she -wasn't going to go back to Russia. - -Mrs. FORD. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that all the conversation that you had with her about -going back to Russia at that time? - -Mrs. FORD. That is right. That is about all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where the Oswalds lived at this time when -Marina came to the Meller's house and then to your house? - -Mrs. FORD. No; I have never been at their apartment, and she couldn't -tell me. I know she lived in Oak Cliff, the Dallas section about -southwest, I believe. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In Dallas? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether Marina had lived with a lady in Fort -Worth before they came to Dallas? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; I know they stayed there but I didn't talk to her -during the time and I didn't visit her. I know she stayed at Elena -Hall's house and I think Elena had an accident just before that and she -was--she stayed in bed most of the time. Marina was helping her out. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you had only seen Lee Oswald, up to this week that -Marina came to live with you, one time, is that correct? - -Mrs. FORD. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was the Meller's luncheon party? - -Mrs. FORD. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised on the basis of any judgment you might -have made of Lee Oswald to learn that he had beaten his wife? - -Mrs. FORD. Just from seeing him once I would not have made--no; that -he has beaten his wife; no, I didn't think at that time. I did, when -she came in after I learned that he has beaten her, I was rather--I -remember the bruises on her face and that rather made signs to me that -he did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did it surprise you that he would have done this? - -Mrs. FORD. No; it did not surprise me. I just felt that young man as he -was, if he was--decided to go to Russia after living in a country like -the United States, I didn't feel he was very, what shall I say, how -would you say, a person's mind won't work at this time---- - -The CHAIRMAN. Unstable? - -Mrs. FORD. Unstable, that is how I felt. I felt a person like that, I -felt frankly could do anything. - -Representative FORD. Did she ever tell you that Lee Oswald was the -cause of these bruises on her face? - -Mrs. FORD. Well, she did tell me after she came to the house to stay -with me. - -Representative FORD. That is what I mean? - -Mrs. FORD. That is right. - -Representative FORD. The bruises you saw on her face at the house she -told you Lee Oswald was the cause? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes, that is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let's clarify that a little. Did Marina Oswald have any -bruises at the time she came to live in your house in November 1962? - -Mrs. FORD. No; that is right. But she stayed at Anna Meller's house -for a week and when she came to Anna Meller's house I heard there were -bruises at that time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Anna Meller tell you that? - -Mrs. FORD. Either Anna Meller or George Bouhe told me that. I don't -remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you yourself did see bruises on her face the first -time? - -Mrs. FORD. I did see the first time; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that Lee Oswald had given her those -bruises? - -Mrs. FORD. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. She told you that when she stayed with you? - -Mrs. FORD. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us the circumstances under which Marina left your -home in November of 1962, where she went and what happened? - -Mrs. FORD. Well, she stayed with me a week, and my husband came home -on Saturday, and we discussed with another friend of mine for Marina -to go to her house and stay there as long as she wanted, and I think -Sunday morning this friend of mine, Anna Ray, came with a station wagon -and picked all her things up, her playpen she had for baby, and diapers -and things, and took her to her house and I believe my husband was with -her, too, at that time and that is how she left. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, do you know how long she stayed with the Rays? - -Mrs. FORD. With the Rays. I think she just stayed there, she had had -dinner there, I believe she stayed one afternoon. I don't know how soon -Lee came there but he came soon over to the house, but Marina said he -cried and begged her to return, he would be nothing, if she didn't -return, he would be finished, that is what he was telling her, and she -said she just couldn't say, no to him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So she returned to Oswald at that time? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; she returned to Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk with the Mellers about their -experiences with Marina when she lived at their house for that time? - -Mrs. FORD. No; I don't remember, she did not discuss it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you remember or did you know where Lee Oswald was -living prior to the time that Marina came to Dallas? - -Mrs. FORD. No; I don't know where he lived at any time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where he was working at that time or if he -was working at all? - -Mrs. FORD. During the time they lived in Dallas, I believe, I don't -know exactly, though, either George Bouhe or Anna Meller's husband -found him a job in a printing shop, I think, or I believe it is -printing shop, somewhere in Oak Cliff, and that is why they had an -apartment there. I remember that is the reason because George Bouhe was -rather mad at Marina for taking an apartment in Oak Cliff because it -was too far for him to drive and help her when she needed help and the -baby, I think he was taking her to the dentist and taking the baby to a -doctor to help her in ways that she couldn't do herself. - -Representative FORD. Who was doing this driving? - -Mrs. FORD. I believe George Bouhe did this. He has the car. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where does Mr. Bouhe live? - -Mrs. FORD. He lives, well, I don't know his address now. I know where -he lives but I don't know the street number. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But it is not in the Oak Cliff Section of Dallas? - -Mrs. FORD. No; it is not. I think it would be in the east part of -Dallas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. During the time that Marina stayed with you, did she say -anything to you about Lee Oswald's political beliefs or his attitudes -concerning politics? - -Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't talk to me about that and I didn't ask her. - -Frankly, I didn't talk with Lee about that, I didn't feel the need of -it myself to discuss politics with him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss that subject with any of your friends? - -Mrs. FORD. Well, yes. They were telling me, those friends that went -to his apartment, were telling me, that they have seen books like -Karl Marx open in front of him, just lying there on the table, that he -didn't even hide it when someone came in, and then someone else said -there was a book laying there of How to Be a Spy, laying right open -there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who told you that? - -Mrs. FORD. I believe it was Lydia Dymitruk. - -Mr. LIEBELER. D-y-m-i-t-r-u-k. - -Do you remember anything about that particular conversation? - -Mrs. FORD. Well, she was telling me, she took, when the baby left my -house, she had a cold, and it was getting worse, and I believe soon -after she left Anna Ray, the baby began to have a fever, and Lydia, I -believe, I don't know how she got to go to her apartment, really, I -don't know the reason she went there; she went there and wanted to take -the baby to the doctor and she told me of an incident that says even -Marina was ashamed of Lee because when she took her to the hospital Lee -was lying about that he didn't have a job at the time, which Lydia knew -that he did have. He didn't want to pay for the services, and people at -the hospital was asking him how does he pay for the apartment and he -was telling them that, "My friends were helping me," and Marina just -said something in Russian that Lydia remembers, "What a liar," you -know, behind his back. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say that so he could hear it? - -Mrs. FORD. I think so, because she said it aloud. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And she said it in Russian? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; she did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In front of Lydia Dymitruk? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; that is right, and Lydia was rather mad about the whole -thing and she said she is not going to help them any more if they are -acting that way. - -The baby wasn't helped at the hospital. I think the hospital didn't -want to take the child because the father couldn't pay, that is what I -got, the father couldn't pay for it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Marina say anything adverse to Oswald in -his presence, did she run him down or make fun of him in public so far -as you know? - -Mrs. FORD. As far as I know, I don't, except the first time, the one -time, I would think when she said, "What a liar," in front of him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know of any other instance when she would have -done that? - -Mrs. FORD. I don't know of any other instance. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether she ever spoke of his political views -before other people or make fun of him? - -Mrs. FORD. No; I don't remember except lately I have been talking to -her about that and she said she thought of him being young, and she -thought she hoped it would pass with years, that he would mature, this -is what she was telling me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you whether or not she discussed politics -with him herself? Did she argue with him about anything? - -Mrs. FORD. She said she was arguing with him about that. Certainly, in -fact, he called her, she was typical American girl, that she is not -interested at all in politics, except in the material things that he -wasn't interested in. She said she wanted a house and a family and he -said, "All the American girls think that way" and he thought he married -a different sort of a girl, a Russian girl. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, think back on that week that Marina stayed with you. -Is there anything else that happened or is there anything that Marina -told you that you think we should know about and about which I haven't -already asked you? - -Mrs. FORD. I cannot think of it at the time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When was the next contact that you had with the Oswalds'? - -Mrs. FORD. It was right after Christmas before New Year's. I believe it -was the 28th of December, a Friday. I gave, I had, a party for all the -friends, and I invited a family by the name of De Mohrenschildt, wife -and husband, and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt called me up and asked me if she -couldn't bring Marina and her husband over because she was saying it -is a shame the way all their Russian friends have forsaken them during -that time and they had no place to go and the De Mohrenschildts were -the only ones helping them at the time, and I told her I didn't object -to it. So she brought them over with them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was Mr. Bouhe at the party? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; I think so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were Elena Hall and her husband there? - -Mrs. FORD. I don't remember them being at that party. I don't think so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were the Mellers there? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that De Mohrenschildt was there. - -Mrs. FORD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And the Oswalds. - -Mrs. FORD. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there a gentleman by the name of Allen A. Jackson at -the party? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And his wife? - -Mrs. FORD. And his wife. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any conversations or observe any -conversations between Marina Oswald and Mr. Jackson? - -Mrs. FORD. Marina Oswald, no; I don't think so. I don't think Marina -spoke English at the time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were Mr. and Mrs. Charles Edward Harris at the party? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Mr. and Mrs. Harris about the party -afterward? - -Mrs. FORD. I might have. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she mention translating a conversation between Mr. -Jackson and Marina Oswald? - -Mrs. FORD. No; she did not mention it to me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't see her doing that? - -Mrs. FORD. No; I didn't see her doing that at the party. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversation with Lee Oswald at the -party that night? - -Mrs. FORD. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice anybody else talking to him? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; I did. I noticed a girl talking to him who was of -Japanese descent but I don't remember her name. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anything striking about that? - -Mrs. FORD. No; I think, the only thing it was that I think he talked -to her most of the time and wasn't making any conversation with anyone -else. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina comment on that to you? - -Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't. But I heard from somebody else that she did -comment. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who told you that? - -Mrs. FORD. I think George Bouhe again. He always spoke to everybody. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did Mr. Bouhe say about that? - -Mrs. FORD. Well, he said something that I asked Marina afterward and -she told me that it wasn't true. He said that Lee talked to that -Japanese girl like a--it is an expression in Russia to take a bath and -then beat themselves with the leaves from a tree, and the leaf would -stick to the body, in the wintertime, and so the expression from that, -like a leaf sticks to the hot body when you take a bath, you know. -Then I suppose Lee struck her as just not saying anything--and I asked -Marina and she said he did not do it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any talk at the party about Oswald's -experiences in Russia or his marriage to Marina? - -Mrs. FORD. During the party? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mrs. FORD. No; I didn't talk to him at all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't overhear anybody else talking about -Oswald's experiences in Russia? - -Mrs. FORD. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that the Oswalds came with De -Mohrensehildt. Did they go home with De Mohrensehildt? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; they did because Mrs. De Mohrensehildt stated that the -lady who stayed with Oswald's child had to leave at 12 o'clock and they -left before that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After the Oswalds left the party, was there any -discussion about the Oswalds that you can remember? - -Mrs. FORD. No; really not. I don't think they made a big impression on -that party on anybody. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you fix the date on which your party was held? - -Mrs. FORD. The 28th of December. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What year? - -Mrs. FORD. 1962. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any other party the next day or the day after -that? - -Mrs. FORD. There were other parties. I don't think that Marina and -her husband were present. I don't know if you would call it a party, -there was a sort of a get-together at my house afterward because some -people stayed over in town for a few days, I think that was the Rays, -and the Harrises, and a friend of my husband from Louisiana, Sullivans, -stayed there. But they hadn't met Oswald, they came much later after 12 -o'clock. So we sort of had a get-together. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This would have been the next day? - -Mrs. FORD. The next day. - -Mr. LIEBELER. On the 29th of December. - -Was Mr. Bouhe---- - -Mrs. FORD. No; Mr. Bouhe wasn't present at that time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any conversation at that time about Oswald? - -Mrs. FORD. I don't remember, 1 don't think so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that there was a party or open house at -Mr. Bouhe's house on the 29th? - -Mrs. FORD. If there was, I wasn't present, I didn't go. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there a party at Meller's house? - -Mrs. FORD. There was a party or luncheon. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go? - -Mrs. FORD. No; I didn't go. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any conversation during this period of 3 or -4 days about Oswald, anybody speculating about Oswald or discussing his -experiences---- - -Mrs. FORD. No; I think---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. In Russia? - -Mrs. FORD. I think at that time everyone rather--George Bouhe said he -was not going to help them any more, he was through, since Marina, he -tried to help her very hard, and she did not hold her word about not -going back to him. So he said since she went back, so now it is her -problem. - -Well, he is sort of that type of man, he is trying to help hard and -if you are doing what he says otherwise he is not going to help, so -that was it. So it was rather, sort of Marina and her husband were -dropped at that time, nobody actually wanted to help, and I think what -they heard about Lydia Dymitruk was saying that he couldn't help those -people. I mean they were just sort of--he couldn't reach them. He was -lying in hospital and things, we sort of gave it up. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lydia make that remark at one of those parties or was -that at a previous time? - -Mrs. FORD. Oh, that was a previous time. As soon as she left to go back -to her husband, George Bouhe even took the Russian dictionary back to -him. He told her to give it back and he was just through with him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So far as you know Mr. Bouhe had no more contact with the -Oswalds after that? - -Mrs. FORD. No; I don't think so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversation with any of your friends -in Dallas or Fort Worth on the question of Oswald's ability to leave -Russia and come back to the United States and bring Marina with him? - -Mrs. FORD. We didn't speculate on that until really later, until now, -after the assassination that subject came up, and people asking why -they left so soon. He was telling me it took them a year, so I don't -know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any conversation prior to the assassination, -during this period in 1962, any speculation as to whether Oswald might -be an agent of any government? - -Mrs. FORD. No. I frankly didn't think he was capable of it. That was my -feeling on it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any conversations on that? - -Mrs. FORD. No. There were not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that Mr. Bouhe suggested at one time that -Oswald was a mental case? - -Mrs. FORD. Mr. Bouhe, he might have; yes, I think we all thought that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that Mr. Bouhe said that? - -Mrs. FORD. I don't remember particularly that he would say that. - -The CHAIRMAN. Did you say, "We all thought that"? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; we thought that, that he was rather mentally--you just -said the word before. - -The CHAIRMAN. Unstable? - -Mrs. FORD. Unstable. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Unstable. - -Why did you think that, Mrs. Ford? - -Mrs. FORD. In my own opinion, I just didn't think that a man as young -as he was could come to the conclusions just by rather experiences or -living a long time in America and I mean studying the whole economic -structures of different governments, and things that he would come to -the conclusion that is the best thing for him. I think he was just -rather too young for that. - -I thought he was just rather--something was rather wrong with the man. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You based this---- - -Representative FORD. In the conversation that Oswald had with this -Japanese lady at your party, did you overhear any of that conversation? - -Mrs. FORD. No; I did not. I did not have time, I was the hostess and I -just didn't get to talk to anyone. - -Representative FORD. Did you ever ask the Japanese lady what the gist -of the conversation was or what the content of the conversation was? - -Mrs. FORD. No; I never have. In fact, I have not seen her after that. -That was the first time she came to my house. I mean I have seen her -later on in the beauty shop but I have never talked to her about it. - -Representative FORD. Did she speak English? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; she speaks English well. - -Representative FORD. All right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At this get-together that you mentioned at your house on, -I think it was the 29th, after the party, the informal get-together, -the Rays were there, and the Sullivans, and Mr. and Mrs. Harris. - -Would it refresh your recollection if I suggested to you that some of -the people that were there at that party said the possibility of Oswald -being a Russian agent was discussed in detail at that party in that -group? - -Mrs. FORD. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember any of the discussion? - -Mrs. FORD. I don't remember any of the discussion. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything other than what you told us that led -you to believe that Oswald was unstable or a mental case? - -Mrs. FORD. Nothing, except that I was thinking about him myself beating -his wife. That would have been one reason. I don't think that any -stable man would do that, especially she appeared to me very sick sort -of a woman, not sick, but frail and fragile, I think any man who -strikes a woman who is incapable of striking back, I would think would -be unstable. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This Russian group that we have been discussing, Mr. -Bouhe and these other people, do they see each other regularly? Is -there sort of a Russian community in Dallas, would you say? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; there are about, I think, maybe four families in Fort -Worth and maybe half a dozen in Dallas or more than that, but that -mainly we see each other, and there is one Eastern Orthodox Church in -Russia where that is where we actually meet each other. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In Dallas, you mean, or Fort Worth? - -Mrs. FORD. Dallas. I am sorry. In Dallas, and we still observe our -Eastern Orthodox religion during the holidays and sometimes like -Christmas falls 13 days after the American Christmas so there is New -Year's sometimes we celebrate those. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How well do you know the De Mohrenschildts? - -Mrs. FORD. Well, I know George De Mohrenschildt the same, -approximately, I will say I was acquainted with him for approximately -14 years but I don't know him well. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned before that De Mohrenschildt was the only -member of the Russian community that kept on seeing the Oswalds and -trying to help them. - -Was there any discussion about that among your friends? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; George De Mohrenschildt is rather an odd ball, among -Russians anyway, so it was nothing unusual about him doing that. He was -always doing something unusual. He would even go to church with shorts -on, you know, this is something, he would do something that nobody else -would do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Shorts? - -Mrs. FORD. Shorts. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Short trousers? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any specific conversations about the -reasons as to why De Mohrenschildt continued to associate with the -Oswalds after the rest of you had given them up. - -Mrs. FORD. Well, I remember his wife was telling me like she felt it -was their duty now since everybody else dropped them and they needed -help. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any conversation with the Oswalds among -any of your friends as to whether or not Oswald went hunting in Russia -and had access to weapons? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; I think that George Bouhe was telling me that. He was -telling him that he was going hunting and he told him about killing -ducks or something of that type. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember that in any greater detail? - -Mrs. FORD. No; I don't remember it. I only remember that because of the -way he was saying, "ducks" in Russian, George was saying that he was -using sort of a word when you call for it, it is a small duck rather -than for ducks, he was saying that his Russian wasn't perfect. - -I mean in that conversation he was using, an example of he was saying, -when he would go hunting for ducks, instead of "utki" for ducks he -would say "utitschki" that would mean small ducks, and he was saying -that his Russian was imperfect. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is Oswald's Russian? - -Mrs. FORD. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What about Marina's ability to speak English at that -time, did she speak English at that time? - -Mrs. FORD. I don't think she did. She could speak a few words but I -don't think she did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did any of you attempt to teach her English? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; George Bouhe was attempting to teach her to write and -was giving her lessons. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us something about that? - -Mrs. FORD. Well, he was telling me that he had gotten her a dictionary -and he had--or some other book anyway and he was telling me that every -time he saw her, made an attempt to see her I don't know how he did -that but anyway he was giving her a lesson and she was supposed to have -completed it by the next time in writing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Bouhe tell you anything about Marina's ability to -speak English or write English? Did Marina learn as a result of that? - -Mrs. FORD. He said she was doing very well. I don't know if she learned -to speak but he said she was a good student. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lee Oswald ever object to this effort on Mr. Bouhe's -part? - -Mrs. FORD. Well, he was objecting to anyone of the Russians helping her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Helping her learn English? - -Mrs. FORD. Not learning English, but I mean helping her about anything. -I don't know whether he was objecting to that. But we talked with Lee -about this, why he wasn't teaching her English and he wasn't speaking -to her and he said that he didn't want to forget Russian and he really -said, "If she wants," this is what Marina said the other day, that he -didn't actually object, but he thought if she could learn Russian just -by herself in any way she could, she could, but he is not going to help -her. He just didn't want to help her by speaking English. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mean English. - -Mrs. FORD. That is right. He is not going to talk English with her, he -wanted Russian. He wanted for the little girl to learn Russian and for -himself not to forget it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate, in other words that he wanted Marina to -speak Russian so that he could maintain his own ability in Russian? - -Mrs. FORD. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And he also wanted his children to learn to speak Russian? - -Mrs. FORD. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After this party on the 28th of December, what was your -next contact with either Lee or Marina Oswald? - -Mrs. FORD. After the 28th? I think after the assassination, I only -heard once about her, I just heard she went to New Orleans. Again a -friend, Lydia Dymitruk, was in the bakery and she said she saw Marina -coming in and she told her she thought Marina was pregnant and she told -her Marina was going to New Orleans. That is the only time I have heard -anything about them after that party. The next contact I had with her -was, I don't know the date but it was soon after the assassination when -I just felt sorry for Marina, I thought she was, I always felt she was -innocent, I thought she was a naive girl in a lot of ways and that is -why she got into a lot of problems and troubles. - -I just felt if she didn't have anybody there except the FBI and nobody -to speak in Russian, she didn't know how everybody felt, I would -think she would feel very badly, so I called Mrs. Paine who, I found -out after the assassination she was a friend of Marina's and I told -her that if she would have a contact with Marina, tell her that we -sympathize with her that she is in the position that she is, and to -call me or to let me--that I would like to talk with her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when it was that you talked -to Mrs. Paine? - -Mrs. FORD. I think that was either the first part of December, I think -it must have been at least a week after the assassination. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In early December? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What happened after that? - -Mrs. FORD. Right after that, I think the next day Marina called me, and -she said the reason she called me was because Mrs. Paine told her that -I called, and let her know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember specifically that Marina told you that -she, Marina, had talked to Mrs. Paine? - -Mrs. FORD. Well, this, I don't know. I think that is what she did. In -fact, I think that Mrs. Paine told me she talked on the telephone with -Marina but I couldn't be positive about it. I know she wrote letters, -they wrote, I know Mrs. Paine wrote to Marina, and I couldn't exactly -say she talked to her on the telephone or how it was, either Marina -called Mrs. Paine or I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say you know Marina wrote Mrs. Paine a letter? Did -Marina tell you that she wrote Mrs. Paine during that period? - -Mrs. FORD. I don't remember. I know later Mrs. Paine kept calling me -and asked if I heard from Marina, because she kept writing to Marina -and Marina didn't answer, so she wanted to know if I talked to her, -that she was the reason she was calling me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mrs. Paine indicate to you after she called you -trying to find out from Marina, did she indicate to you she had or had -not heard from Marina since the assassination? - -Mrs. FORD. I believe she told me she talked on the telephone with her -right soon after, after I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. During this first telephone conversation with Marina, was -there anything said about the events of the assassination in any way? - -Mrs. FORD. No; not at all, except that Marina was very surprised the -way people treated her. She was telling me that if it had happened in -Russia, she just would--she just knew she wouldn't be talking to me or -anybody else. She knew they would be sent to Siberia or shot right away -is what she said. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that what Marina said? - -Mrs. FORD. That is what she said. I told her that was the big -difference in Russian Government and the American Government. And -then she asked me for advice. Someone contacted her at the time from -a western paper and offered her $10,000 or something for the story -and she asked me if it was the right thing to do because she felt she -didn't want to make money on such a thing, a horrible thing as that, -and I advised her to take the money because I thought she would need it -for the children. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after that first--was there anything else you -discussed in that telephone conversation? - -Mrs. FORD. No; I think we talked mostly about that book deal, about the -offer she had. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After that first telephone conversation, what was the -next contact you had with Marina? - -Mrs. FORD. That was quite a long time after that when it was again Mrs. -Paine contacted me, and wanted to know if I could go and translate for -them for, we were saying about that yesterday, what is that union. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I did talk to you yesterday afternoon. - -Mrs. FORD. I have forgotten, I couldn't say because it is important. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was it the American Civil Liberties Union? - -Mrs. FORD. That is right, it was the American Civil Liberties Union and -I talked to my husband about that and he tried to find out; I told him -to find out all he can if it had anything to do with a Communist front -or something and if it was I didn't want to do anything about it, to be -connected with it, and he couldn't find anything out, but at the same -time I told him that I did not want to go with them but I didn't mind -translating. So I did translate and they wanted to know if Marina was -held incommunicado, and she answered. Mrs. Paine brought me that letter -to translate from English to Russian, and the man in charge, I don't -know his name, I have forgotten his name, you mentioned it yesterday, -if you say it I will remember it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let's come to that in a moment, let's develop the story -first. - -How did the question of the American Civil Liberties first come up, did -Mrs. Paine bring it up? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; that is right, because she tried to write letters to -Marina and she wouldn't answer and she thought she was held in sort of -a protective custody and couldn't see anybody. That is what she felt, -and she was rather imprisoned is what she thought. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So Mrs. Paine came to you with a letter that was written -in English, is that correct? - -Mrs. FORD. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And she asked you to translate into Russian? - -Mrs. FORD. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was that a letter from Mrs. Paine to Marina or a letter -from the Civil Liberties Union? - -Mrs. FORD. No; from Civil Liberties Union. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And so you translated that into Russian? - -Mrs. FORD. That is right, I translated it into Russian. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Up to that point was Mrs. Paine the only person who -discussed that subject with you. - -Mrs. FORD. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any further discussions with Mrs. Paine or -anybody else? - -Mrs. FORD. We tried to find out about the Union and my husband called -lawyers and friends of his who would know about it and called the -Secret Service and FBI and nobody would tell us anything about it. They -would send us somewhere else, refer it to someone else to find out, so -we don't find out. - -So, I just decided on my own not to go, just to translate. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well now, what is this about going with them, what did -Mrs. Paine ask you? - -Mrs. FORD. She thought that maybe since I knew Marina she would rather -confide in me more than just anyone like reporters or someone just from -the Union would go there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you declined to go with them? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when somebody else spoke to you -about this subject? - -Mrs. FORD. No, not at all. Just during that time I wanted to find out -if she was in prison. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina respond to the letter that you translated? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; they received an answer right the next day, and the man -from Richardson, who I think is the head of that Union in Dallas, came -to my house and asked me if I could translate it back into English. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that man's name? - -Mrs. FORD. No; if you mention it I would know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would it refresh your recollection if I mentioned the -name of Gregg Olds? - -Mrs. FORD. That is right; yes, that is his name. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did Mr. Olds say to you when he came to see you? - -Mrs. FORD. He just brought the letter and he was rather standing and -he wasn't talking very much. He was kind of a quiet person, I think. -I took the letter--he thought I could just sit there and do it real -fast in front of him, but I had to take it into a room and sort of -concentrate in the living room and translated and giving it to him. - -He said, "Thank you," and he left. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when this was? - -Mrs. FORD. No; I cannot say. Let's see. I think it was sometime before -Christmas, because after that I sent her a Christmas card. - -No, wait a minute, I just can't say if it was before Christmas or -afterward, I don't remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember if it was before or after Marina -testified before this Commission? - -Mrs. FORD. That was before the Warren Commission. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It was before the Warren Commission? - -Mrs. FORD. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Marina again on the telephone after this -first time? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; I talked to her on the telephone because through my -husband's brother who is a professor in one of the universities in -California, he had a friend by the name of Isaac Levine who does write, -who speaks Russian and writes rather--he wrote a book of on the mind of -the assassin, Trotsky's story. He wanted to contact me and to find out -if Marina had signed a contract on writing a book. So I told him that -I would call the managers, since there was published in the newspaper -at that time, and to find out if they did, and I did call. I called her -lawyer and I asked if she signed for a book, and I called Levine long -distance and told him she did not have a contract signed. Then he told -me that he would like--he wanted to know if he could arrange to see -Marina, and I told him that I would ask the manager and he told me to -contact, for Levine to contact, the attorney and the manager. I saw -later on they have somehow gotten together. I think he wrote to them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when Marina came to your house to -visit? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; she brought a letter she wanted me to translate. It was -after this, after I had a contact about the writer Marina called me, -this is the first time, the first time after the assassination that she -called me on the telephone and we talked about that and I told her that -the man had contacted me and he speaks Russian. I thought it would be -a good opportunity for her to write if she wanted to since she could -communicate easily with a writer that speaks Russian. I read his book -that he sent me, and he makes real sense. I invited her to come out -to dinner and, of course, I didn't expect that there would be a whole -company with her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she come out? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; they did, they came out, the Secret Service and the -manager were there and everybody so I cooked a Russian dinner. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when that was? - -Mrs. FORD. It was shortly before the Commission, maybe about 2 weeks -before the Commission. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Late in January sometime? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. During that time that Marina was there did you have any -discussion with her about the events of the assassination or anything -relating to that? - -Mrs. FORD. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she discuss with you her possible testimony before -this Commission? - -Mrs. FORD. No, not during that time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina come back to your house again before she came -to testify before the Commission? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes, she was once more at my house. During the first time -her manager brought a letter that she wanted to bring to the Governor -about how she feels about Ruby's being executed. She told me she didn't -want, she didn't feel, if she could help she didn't want to have the -killing of a dead man on her conscience, on her mind. She wanted me to -translate that letter and I did translate it. - -And I left it at home and later on they came by, I told Mr. Martin -that I would come by his house and bring the letter to her after I -translated. - -He said, "If you wanted to we can come back to your house like we did -before." And they did and they picked up the letter. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any copy of that letter? - -Mrs. FORD. I think maybe I have a copy of it, of my translation. But I -am not positive. I know I put it in a desk. - -Representative FORD. This was a letter from whom to whom? - -Mrs. FORD. From Marina to, I will say they did--I think it was advised -to her to write it to the Governor, to Governor Connally. - -Representative FORD. To Governor Connally? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. To the present Governor of Texas, that is the Governor of -Texas? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You said that Marina said to you she did not want to have -another death on her conscience? - -Mrs. FORD. That is right. She feels like, she told me she feels -strongly about it, that people shouldn't kill one another, if there is -no war. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she use the words as you remember it, the words "on -her conscience"? - -Mrs. FORD. No; I don't remember that word really but I just feel this -was, she would feel very badly if that would happen. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she seem to feel that she had some responsibility for -these things? - -Mrs. FORD. What do you mean by that? I mean how, responsibility in what -way? - -Mr. LIEBELER. That she was in anyway a cause of any of these deaths -herself? - -Mrs. FORD. No; I wouldn't think she feels this way, no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about the conversations at the second meeting. -Were there any conversations at that time about her testimony before -the Commission or about the assassination? - -Mrs. FORD. I believe she mentioned she was going to Washington at that -time. She knew about going, I believe Martin said that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But she didn't talk about her testimony? - -Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't, not at all she didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to anybody else about her testimony before -the Commission? - -Mrs. FORD. I don't know, I don't think so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Martin say anything about it? - -Mrs. FORD. No; I don't remember, I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When was the next time that you saw Marina? - -Mrs. FORD. After she came back from Washington. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she come to your house then? - -Mrs. FORD. No; she did not. Her lawyer, in fact Mr. Martin, called me -and told me she is staying at her brother-in-law's, and that he wanted -to break the partnership with her, and he asked me if I could go with -her attorney and translate for her the conditions of the break, the -breaking of the contract, and I agreed to go with them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. To Robert Oswald? - -Mrs. FORD. To Robert Oswald's house; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time after that when Marina came to live -with you in your house? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; when I came there, Marina told me she couldn't stay -another day, she thought, in Robert's house. It was such a small house -and small children and she just didn't like to stay in there at all, -and so I told her, "Well, you could come and stay at my place if you -wanted to," and she said she would love to do that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After Marina moved in with you, did you talk to her -about her testimony before the Commission, that she gave before the -Commission? - -Mrs. FORD. No; we never talked about what she did. She told me she had -it, written something. She said something maybe that someone mentioned -in the Commission that that was rather good for a novel but not for the -testimony. - -She said, well, she had written the way she remembers her past, those -are the words she made. - -Mr. LIEBELER. She was referring to a statement she had written. - -Mrs. FORD. She had written, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she show it to you? - -Mrs. FORD. No; I have never seen it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. During the time that Marina stayed with you or at any -other time, did she say anything to you about this incident where Mr. -Oswald was allegedly going to attack Mr. Nixon? - -Mrs. FORD. No; I hadn't learned about that until later. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss it with Marina? - -Mrs. FORD. Somehow she didn't feel, she didn't want to discuss it very -much, she felt badly that it came out, I suppose or something. She -didn't want it to. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But she did talk to you about it? - -Mrs. FORD. She talked to me because I had to translate it to her, -the discussion with her lawyer, and he, I think, the FBI were at the -lawyer's office while they went to talk to her about the subject, and I -had to translate what she was telling the lawyer about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with her about this Nixon -affair at a time when the FBI was not present? - -Mrs. FORD. I think going home, I just maybe, I don't know what I asked -her. She said the same thing actually what she said in the office, that -she held him in the bathroom and I asked her how was it finished, and -she said, "I talked him out of it," and he said, "If you will keep me -in the bathroom, just give me something to read." She didn't talk very -much about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask her how she could lock Lee in the bathroom? - -Mrs. FORD. No; it never occurred to me to ask her and I did not ask her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss this question with anybody else how she -could lock anybody in the bathroom? - -Mrs. FORD. Not until yesterday with my husband, how she could do it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything else that Marina told you about this -Nixon affair that you can remember now? - -Did she tell you when it happened? - -Mrs. FORD. No; she told me only that, that she said she mixed up dates. -She thought it was one month and it was, supposedly happened, another -month and she said that a lot of times she doesn't remember exactly the -month. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you anything about the General Walker affair? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; she told me something about that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was that? - -Mrs. FORD. She said in the first place, people are saying that maybe -she knew ahead of time and she said she did not. Lee told her after it -had happened, after he had shot, and he told her, "Well, I just tried -to shoot Walker." She said she was rather angry and she told him if he -ever does that again, she said, "Don't ever do that again," she was -rather disgusted--that he shouldn't do such a thing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you about any note that he had written in -connection with the attack on General Walker? - -Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you whether the Walker incident occurred -before or after the Nixon incident? - -Mrs. FORD. I don't know. She never said it to me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she discuss with you during this period that she had -been living in your house any of the details of the assassination? - -Mrs. FORD. I, frankly, just didn't feel like asking her questions, I -really felt like I just wanted to help her, that is all. She never -brought the subject up herself. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say anything about what happened on Thursday -night when Lee Oswald came back from Irving to Dallas? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; she said that was not long ago, and she somehow found -out someone, I think Robert, told her there was some evidence that -someone saw a boy running across--a boy saw someone running across -the yard or something, and he thought maybe there was some other man -involved. And she began to say, "Well, if Lee didn't kill the President -why did he come home on Thursday and why did he leave his ring at home -and why was the gun taken from the garage." I mean she was putting that -together, she was making me believe that Lee was doing it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. She was considering at that time the possibility that Lee -Oswald was not? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Guilty of this? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; Robert, I believe, was telling her that, that there -was a possibility that somebody else did the crime and she was talking -about that to me, and that is when she said about why would he come -back on Thursday when he never did that before, and also that he would -leave a ring that was to her it would mean something that he didn't -want--he didn't feel like he would return or something. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with Marina her feeling as to Lee -Oswald's guilt or innocence in this matter? - -Mrs. FORD. Well, she feels that--no, I don't remember her discussing -it. I think she asked him after she saw him after the assassination he -told her no, he did not kill anybody. He told her that. But I think her -own conclusion is that he did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussions with her as to whether Lee -Oswald was angry with President Kennedy for any reason? - -Mrs. FORD. No; she told me that he actually never did say anything bad -about Kennedy. He didn't like General Walker because he compared him -rather with Hitler in some way. He said, he was telling her, she was -asking him why would he kill a man like that, I mean that he should not -kill anybody. He said, he told her, well, if somebody killed Hitler -ahead of time that wouldn't have happened in Germany and he says he -felt like it was his duty to get rid of men where he was a Fascist, -speaking about General Walker. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina say anything about Lee's attitude toward -Governor Connally? - -Mrs. FORD. No; she never discussed that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Marina about Marina's feelings toward -Mrs. Paine? - -Mrs. FORD. Lately, I have been talking to her about that, and Mrs. -Paine, I know, tried to contact her and asked Marina why she did not -want to write to her, because I know that she had written to her often. -Somehow she doesn't like Mrs. Paine and then she said she feels that -Martin told her that Mrs. Paine was making money on her articles about -Marina, and she don't like that. - -I got, even lately, Mrs. Paine called me up, and I believe it was only -a pretense because she knew that I had a contact with Marina and she -wanted to see Marina. She came to my house and told me she wanted for -me to read in Russian very slowly that she could follow me for her -students. She is teaching Russian to some students in private school -and that she could record it and then listen to it, and she said she -would pay me for the services, and at the time, the same time. - -So, I had Marina that evening, I know she would want to see her, so I -invited Marina to my house and at the time Mrs. Paine was coming. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You told her Mrs. Paine was coming? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; I told her Mrs. Paine was coming and she only said she -didn't want Mrs. Paine for her to know the telephone number or the -house she lives in. She said she would come in all the time and she -didn't exactly like her. She didn't want to see her at her house, not -now anyway, she said. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina and Mrs. Paine meet this evening at your house? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; they did, they talked. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did they say to each other? - -Mrs. FORD. Well, frankly, I got an idea that Mrs. Paine came there -to convince Marina to write a book with Mr. Levine who is rather -persistent about it at the moment. He wants to start writing a book -before Marina finishes with her lawyer and attorney--and her manager. -She knows and she is advised by her attorney now not to do it before it -is finished, and I think Mrs. Paine tried to talk her into it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. They didn't discuss anything about the assassination or -Mrs. Oswald's testimony before the Commission? - -Mrs. FORD. No; I did not hear it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So far as you heard. - -Did Marina ever tell you anything about the trip to Mexico that Lee -Oswald took? - -Mrs. FORD. Well, let's see. I think she was saying something about -it that she did not mention to the FBI but she mentioned it to the -Commission. She did say that. And that the FBI wanted to talk with her, -that was the reason they wanted to come back again and talk with her. -They came to my house quite often during the time she stayed at my -house and talked with her, and she said that was the subject, and they -asked her why she did not say it to start with, and she said well, she -had begun to get tired of the FBI and she didn't like to talk with them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI had been interviewing her while she stayed at -your place? - -Mrs. FORD. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been present at any of those interviews? - -Mrs. FORD. No; unless they needed--no; I was not present. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were present at an FBI interview at Mr. McKenzie's -office at one time? - -Mrs. FORD. At Mr. McKenzie's office, that is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there a translator present when the FBI interviewed -Marina? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; there is at the moment. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know his name? - -Mrs. FORD. Mr. Gopadze. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Has Marina discussed with you the questions that the FBI -has been asking her? - -Mrs. FORD. No; except this particular Mexican trip. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you anything about the details of that trip? - -Mrs. FORD. On that trip--she did not go into details of the trip; but -certain things about--she asked Lee to bring her a bracelet and he -didn't, things like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say anything about a desire that Lee Oswald had -to go to Cuba? - -Mrs. FORD. Well, this is something that she talked about but I don't -remember how--she said he wanted to actually go to Cuba. He wanted to -get a visa to go to Russia but he would go to Russia by the way of -Cuba, and she thought that he would stay in Cuba and not go to Russia. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you what she was supposed to do when -Oswald was in Cuba. - -Mrs. FORD. Frankly, I don't know. I know that subject was discussed one -time but I either had to go diaper the baby or something. I just cannot -say--I know she tried to talk on this subject to Mr. Levine once and -she explained it. It was a rather complicated sort of a thing and I -cannot explain it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she express any fears that Oswald was going to leave -her and go to Cuba and abandon her. - -Mrs. FORD. There was a possibility--something she would stay here or -something, and for a while, and we were asking her well, how did she -intend to live while he was gone, and she thought, well, she said, -well, Lee said, "You have a lot of Russian friends and they will help -you," while he is not here, that was the conversation. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever speak of any plans that Oswald had to -hijack an airplane and go to Cuba? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; she said something like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did she say? - -Mrs. FORD. Well, that was again, I believe she was discussing with -Mr. Levine at the time about this Cuba and this airplane. It is again -complicated, I don't think I can say it to make sense, somehow that he -had to go, had to have enough gasoline or something to go there, not to -make a stop anywhere. I could not say it to make any sense. I know she -was talking about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to Robert Oswald about the -assassination? - -Mrs. FORD. No; we we never discussed it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Robert Oswald never expressed to you any thoughts that he -had on Lee Oswald's guilt or innocence? - -Mrs. FORD. I understand he didn't like the cover of Life magazine and I -was rather surprised because it was in my mind like it seems there is -no question. Nobody knows very sure but I feel like it was Lee that did -it. And he was rather angry about the statement there that it was a gun -with which the President was killed, and he was rather angry about that -cover, and that is why I thought that maybe he didn't believe that Lee -killed him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is the only discussion you had with Robert Oswald? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; that is the only one, that is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked to Marina about any rifle practice that -Lee Oswald may have engaged in? - -Mrs. FORD. I didn't discuss it with him but she said that she didn't -think that he went to a rifle practice. She told me that about a lot of -things that people would say that it was not true, she thought that she -didn't think it was true about Lee being at practice. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In Grand Prairie you are referring to? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; that is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In Grand Prairie? - -Mrs. FORD. That is right. She didn't think he was doing that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say anything about him practicing with the rifle -any place else? - -Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she mention that he had practiced with the rifle at -Love Field? - -Mrs. FORD. She didn't say anything. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever say anything to you that indicated she -wanted to go back to Russia? - -You said before that she told Lee Oswald that if he wanted to go back -to Russia he could go but she wasn't going to go. - -But did she ever indicate to you at any time she wanted to go back to -Russia? - -Mrs. FORD. She did not. Again the first call after the assassination -she asked me, she said, "You know I have a visa, a pending visa, to go -to Russia and if they will send it to me, I may have to go." I sort of -answered her, I am pretty sure they wouldn't send her a visa now so she -doesn't have to worry about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yesterday afternoon we discussed some of these things, -did we not? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned the fact that Marina Oswald had told you -that at one time she was thinking about committing suicide? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; she mentioned that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about that. - -Mrs. FORD. She said she didn't want to have it published anywhere, she -is rather ashamed of it. But there was a time after all the--I think -it was before she went to New Orleans and before she lived at Paine's -house, that there was a time that she didn't have any friends, all the -Russian friends left her, I believe De Mohrenschildts were gone during -that time, and that Lee was treating her rather badly at the time and -she just felt like she had no way out. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you anything other than that? Did she tell -you she actually tried to commit suicide or was it something she was -thinking of? - -Mrs. FORD. She didn't tell me the particulars but somehow Lee found out -what was on her mind because he had beaten her again and told her only -crazy people would consider doing a thing like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. She said Lee had found out she had thought of committing -suicide? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever tell you how he found out? - -Mrs. FORD. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she indicate to you in any way that she had ever -tried to do this? - -Mrs. FORD. Well, she didn't tell me the particulars of it, I didn't -want to, I mean I just didn't, ask her for all the details about it. -But she was saying she was thinking about doing it at a certain time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I don't want to press you too hard about it but -there is quite a difference between thinking about doing it and -actually doing it. - -The CHAIRMAN. She didn't hear it, she didn't hear it, did she? - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is right. - -The CHAIRMAN. All right, that is enough. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you write to Marina at any time after the -assassination? - -Mrs. FORD. Did I write to her? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mrs. FORD. I sent her a Christmas card; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Any other letters? - -Mrs. FORD. No; no letters. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How many times have you been interviewed by the FBI, do -you remember? - -Mrs. FORD. FBI maybe twice. The first time, soon after the -assassination; the same day that Lee Oswald was shot. - -Actually we heard by radio, friends of ours had called us, anyone who -knew Lee Oswald was supposed to come out and say it and call the FBI or -the police. So we called the FBI and we said we did know and we came to -the office ourselves and to talk about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been interviewed by the Secret Service? - -Mrs. FORD. No; I don't think so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In our conversation yesterday we discussed your testimony -and reviewed these matters. Is there anything you can remember that we -discussed at that time that we have not talked about here now? - -Mrs. FORD. I don't remember. I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is there any other information that you have that you -think the Commission would like to know about that we don't have -relating to the assassination? - -Mrs. FORD. I don't think there is anything of importance that you don't -know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any papers relating to these matters other -than I think you mentioned a copy of the letter that you translated for -the American Civil Liberties Union, other than that paper, do you have -any papers that might relate to these questions I asked you? - -Mrs. FORD. No; I might have a copy of the letter that Marina was -writing for---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. To Governor Connally? - -Mrs. FORD. To Governor Connally, and it is just rather a translation in -my own handwriting. - -Mr. LIEBELER. On this point about the rifle practice, did Marina tell -you simply that he did not practice at the range at Grand Prairie or he -did not practice at any place with the rifle? - -Mrs. FORD. I think she was talking about the particular range. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Particularly Grand Prairie? - -Mrs. FORD. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And she didn't say anything about any other practice? - -Mrs. FORD. She was telling me that people were--supposedly saw him in -San Antonio and she knew for sure he wasn't there, and then she was -saying they saw him at Grand Prairie practicing and she thought that he -wasn't there, and then again in Ruby's place and she knew sure that Lee -would never go to a place like that, things like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have no further questions. - -The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, do you have some questions for Mrs. -Ford? - -Representative FORD. Mr. Chief Justice, I have one or two. - -The CHAIRMAN. Proceed, please. - -Representative FORD. Did Marina Oswald ever tell you about her -schooling in Russia? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; she did. I think that would be a junior college here. -She would finish 7 or 8 years, I don't know exactly, and then I think -it is 4 years in a junior college which would make her in my opinion an -assistant pharmacist. - -Representative FORD. In other words, she went to the regular---- - -Mrs. FORD. School, yes. - -Representative FORD. Primary school? - -Mrs. FORD. That is right. - -Representative FORD. Following that she went on to a secondary school. - -Mrs. FORD. You don't have to finish primary school. Russian High School -is 10 years, and if you want to specialize in some sort of assistant or -technical work you would finish 7 or 8 years and then you would go 4 -years after that, it is a finishing technical school, whether you would -call it, where you would actually finish high school and at the same -time you acquire some sort of a profession or technician, assistant to -engineer or in this case assistant to a pharmacist. - -Representative FORD. But those were the only schools that she has ever -indicated to you that she attended? - -Mrs. FORD. I think so, that is right. - -Representative FORD. Did she ever indicate to you the participation -that she had in the Komsomol. - -Mrs. FORD. She said that she did join it and then she was kicked out or -something. - -Representative FORD. Did she ever give you any reason why she was -kicked out? - -Mrs. FORD. She told me that one time but I don't--I have forgotten the -reason, I really don't remember. - -Representative FORD. Was it an ordinary thing for a person to be kicked -out of the Komsomol, so far as you know? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; I believe you have to be the sort, if you join it you -have to perform your duty, you have to go the meetings and be sort of -a leader in the community or in school or take on their work so if you -don't do that, I think they just consider you not being a good young -Komsomol. They wouldn't keep you there. - -Representative FORD. Did Marina ever tell you that she did or didn't -join the Communist Party in the Soviet Union? - -Mrs. FORD. She couldn't join it. - -Representative FORD. Why couldn't she join it? - -Mrs. FORD. Well, not from my own experience but from what I know about -it, I think you have to be over 20 years and you have to be 5 years, -you have a 5-year waiting period until they check your background and -see if you are good enough person to get by their standards to join the -Party. - -Representative FORD. Did Marina ever discuss with you any schools or -training programs that Lee participated in while he was in the Soviet -Union? - -Mrs. FORD. No; she never has said anything of that sort. I think she -said one time that they wanted to send him to a school which would give -him a profession but it had nothing to do with military or anything -like that but somehow he didn't go there. But I have forgotten what he -had to be so he was just working regular labor in the factory. - -Representative FORD. You don't recall anything, any details? - -Mrs. FORD. I don't recall any details of the school. - -Representative FORD. You don't recall any of the details of the kind of -school? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; but it was some sort of a civilian, it had nothing to -do with military or espionage or anything like that that I remember. - -Representative FORD. At the time that Marina and June stayed with you -and your husband in October or November of 1962, did Lee Oswald visit -her at your home? - -Mrs. FORD. No. He did not. - -Representative FORD. He called her? - -Mrs. FORD. He called on the telephone. - -Representative FORD. Did anyone else visit her while she was staying at -your home on this occasion? - -Mrs. FORD. On this occasion, I think the only person who visited was -Anna Ray to whom she was to go later after she stayed with me. - -Representative FORD. Excuse me, I didn't hear you. - -Mrs. FORD. Anna Ray, that is another Russian-born person to whom Marina -would go from my house, she came to visit her. - -Representative FORD. The individual who kept Marina after she left you? - -Mrs. FORD. That is right, that is correct. - -Representative FORD. And his name was what? - -Mrs. FORD. Her name. - -Representative FORD. What is the name? - -Mrs. FORD. Anna Ray. - -Representative FORD. That is the only person who visited Marina during -this period? - -Mrs. FORD. At my house; yes. - -Representative FORD. I would like to clarify the time and the -circumstances of this discussion you had with Marina about the Nixon -affair. - -Mrs. FORD. Yes. - -Representative FORD. You had gone to Mr. McKenzie's office with Marina? - -Mrs. FORD. That is right. I had gone translating for her; yes. - -Representative FORD. You were in Mr. McKenzie's office? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes. - -Representative FORD. With Marina. Who else was there? - -Mrs. FORD. And at that time she had a date with the FBI, and we were -doing, I was translating some legal work for her about dismissing her -old attorney and manager and the FBI called me to come later after we -finished with that, and they told Marina why they wanted to talk with -her, and McKenzie took us in that other office and he asked Marina -about that, and told her that that is what she had to talk about, and -she was really angry. She said the thought Robert had said, I mean she -did not tell anybody about it, and she didn't want to talk about it, -and now she has to talk about it to the FBI since Robert mentioned it. - -Representative FORD. In this meeting there was Mr. McKenzie? - -Mrs. FORD. That is right. Mr. McKenzie, Marina and I. - -Representative FORD. Just the three of you? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes. - -Representative FORD. In a room in Mr. McKenzie's office? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; in one of the rooms in his office. - -Representative FORD. And Mr. McKenzie said what? - -Mrs. FORD. Oh, I think that maybe--frankly, I don't know what he was -telling her. - -Representative FORD. Was this meeting only about the Nixon affair? - -Mrs. FORD. I am very sorry, but I think that during that time when -we were talking about that it was when he was talking about General -Walker, that he was--it was not about Nixon that they talked about. - -Representative FORD. This meeting with Mr. McKenzie, when Marina and -you were discussing matters---- - -Mrs. FORD. That was about General Walker. - -I think Mr. McKenzie didn't know what they would talk about but he -advised her "They will ask you if there were two guns, you tell them -there was one gun that was used," he told her. - -Representative FORD. One gun used where? - -Mrs. FORD. For Walker, I mean the same one they had at the house or -something, frankly this is what I had---- - -Representative FORD. I think you just said at the outset of this -meeting the prime purpose or the principal purpose was to discuss the -Walker affair. - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; that is right. - -Representative FORD. How did the Nixon affair come up? - -Mrs. FORD. I just can't recollect how. - -Representative FORD. Did McKenzie raise the question or did Marina -raise it? - -Mrs. FORD. How it was raised, I didn't get to discuss it with her about -the particulars about it, except one time in the car, I don't remember -how it came up and I was asking well how did that happen, and she was -rather hesitating to talk about it, but she said, "Well, I locked him -in the bathroom, and he was screaming or something, he was wanting to -get out", and she tried to talk him out of it and he said, "if you are -going to keep me in here just let me have a book to read", and I told -her how did he get out later, she said, "Well, he rather cooled off and -I talked him out of it." - -Representative FORD. You say this conversation took place in the car? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes; this conversation right now took place in the car but I -don't know how it got started, I have forgotten. - -Representative FORD. When you say it took place in the car, was it in -the car going from Mr. McKenzie's to your home? - -Mrs. FORD. That is right, to my home. She was staying at my place at -this time. - -Representative FORD. Did she talk rather freely about this Nixon---- - -Mrs. FORD. She didn't talk about it freely, I thought she was rather -hesitant about going into particulars. - -Representative FORD. Did she ever indicate why she had not discussed -this incident with anybody, including the Commission? - -Mrs. FORD. Well, right during that time, just before that, in the -office, Mr. McKenzie, and I told her before that, "if you know anything -that I think that would help either the Commission or the FBI I thought -it my duty to tell them," and I told her that if she doesn't want me to -say to anybody just don't talk to me about it, that is what I told her. - -But because and maybe that is why she was hesitating to talk to me, -Mr. McKenzie told it to her and had a written statement to her, too, -if he feels there is anything he will have to say he will say it in -connection with the President. - -So it was said right before that, and I feel maybe that is why she was -hesitating to talk to me. - -Representative FORD. That is all. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Ford, you are an American citizen now, aren't you? - -Mrs. FORD. Yes. - -The CHAIRMAN. How did you acquire it, by marriage to your first soldier -husband? - -Mrs. FORD. No. I had to apply for it. - -The CHAIRMAN. Where were you naturalized? - -Mrs. FORD. In Dallas, Tex. - -The CHAIRMAN. In the Federal court? - -Mrs. FORD. That is correct. - -The CHAIRMAN. When was that about? - -Mrs. FORD. I have it on my bracelet, so I will give you the correct -time, I got it in 1952. - -The CHAIRMAN. In 1952? - -Mrs. FORD. This I got on "This is Your Life". I was on "This is Your -Life". - -Representative FORD. Mr. Chairman, I have one or two more questions. - -The CHAIRMAN. Go right ahead. - -Representative FORD. I wish you could clarify, if you can, the comment -you made about Marina mentioning two guns. - -Mrs. FORD. She did not mention two guns ever to me or anything like -that. But I don't know how or why he advised her to say that at all, I -don't know, it was not clear to me. - -Representative FORD. When you say he, was that Mr. McKenzie? - -Mrs. FORD. That is right, because the only reason--the only thing I -remember about Marina was saying that Lee had laughed about the attempt -to kill General Walker, that he said that they were even too stupid -to find out what gun was used to kill him because it was written up a -different type of gun was used other than the one really used by Lee. - -Representative FORD. Marina said that? - -Mrs. FORD. That is right. Lee had commented on that they were not even -smart enough to identify the gun by a bullet. - -Representative FORD. When did Marina say Lee said that? - -Mrs. FORD. Well, soon after he--maybe that evening or the next day but -I mean after he had attempted to shoot the General. - -Representative FORD. After he had attempted to shoot General Walker? - -Mrs. FORD. That is right. And the bullet was found in the room and I -suppose by the bullet they had tried to identify the gun or whatever he -used to shoot him and it was identified wrong. - -It was not, I don't know what kind of gun he used, frankly, I don't -know, but he said, he just made a comment, they weren't even smart -enough to identify the gun by the bullet. - -Representative FORD. Lee said that to Marina? - -Mrs. FORD. To Marina, that is right. - -Representative FORD. Right after the incident? - -Mrs. FORD. Right after the incident, that is correct. - -Representative FORD. And Marina told Mr. McKenzie that? - -Mrs. FORD. I don't know. - -Representative FORD. You don't know? - -Mrs. FORD. But I think right after that it was in the papers that -a different type of gun was used, and to shoot the President was -different again, there were supposedly two guns, you see, so maybe that -is why he advised her, that he had only one gun. I really don't know -how this came out. - -The CHAIRMAN. That is all. Thank you very much for coming, you have -been very helpful. - -Mrs. FORD. I hope so. I frankly wish I had questioned her more but I -didn't feel it was my duty, but I wanted to tell you what she said to -me. - -The CHAIRMAN. We will take a short recess. - -(Short recess.) - - -TESTIMONY OF DECLAN P. FORD - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Ford, you were given a copy of this statement were -you? - -Mr. FORD. Yes, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. As to the purpose so you understand what we are doing -here today? - -Mr. FORD. Yes, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Will you please rise. Do you solemnly swear the testimony -you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and -nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. FORD. I do. - -The CHAIRMAN. Be seated please and Mr. Liebeler will ask the questions. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Will you state your name, sir? - -Mr. FORD. Declan P. Ford. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live? - -Mr. FORD. Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is your employment? - -Mr. FORD. I am a consulting geologist. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you independently employed? - -Mr. FORD. Yes; I am self-employed. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you give us a brief statement of your educational -background? - -Mr. FORD. I was graduated from the University of California at Los -Angeles in 1948, with a Bachelor of Arts degree in Geology, and was -first employed by Tidewater Associated Oil Co. as a geologist, later -with the Continental Oil Co. as a geologist, and then later with -DeGollyer McNaughton, a consulting firm in Dallas, Tex., until 1962, -October. I went into business for myself as a consulting geologist. All -this time has been in exploration, development of oil and gas fields -both in the United States and foreign countries. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been employed in and about the Fort Worth and -Dallas area ever since you graduated from college? - -Mr. FORD. No; I have only been in the Dallas area since January 1960. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your wife's name is Katherine Ford? - -Mr. FORD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When were you married? - -Mr. FORD. We were married July 1960. July 2. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you married at any time prior to that? - -Mr. FORD. No; I was not. - -The CHAIRMAN. '62, did you say? - -Mr. FORD. 1960. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you acquainted with Jack Ruby? - -Mr. FORD. No; I am not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any connection between Lee Oswald and Jack -Ruby? - -Mr. FORD. No; I don't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Directly or indirectly? - -Mr. FORD. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. John M. Grizzaffi? - -Mr. FORD. Yes; I knew him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not he is a friend or associate of -Jack Ruby's? - -Mr. FORD. I don't know. I have heard that he knows Jack Ruby, I don't -know how well he knows him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Mr. Grizzaffi had any contact with -the Oswalds or knew them? - -Mr. FORD. None that I knew of. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first meet the Oswalds? - -Mr. FORD. In 1962, and I think it was in August of 1962, I am not sure -of the exact date. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances of the meeting? - -Mr. FORD. I was a guest at the house of some friends, the Mellers, and -the Oswalds had been there for lunch, and we came over after lunch to -have cocktails and to meet Lee and Marina Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there at that time? - -Mr. FORD. Mr. Meller and his wife, Anna Meller, George Bouhe, my wife -and myself, Marina and Lee Oswald, and I can't remember for sure if -anybody else. It seems to me there was somebody else there but I can't -remember who it was. Someone else may have come in later or something -like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you mention George Bouhe as being there? - -Mr. FORD. Yes; George Bouhe was there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned him? - -Mr. FORD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who invited you to that luncheon? - -Mr. FORD. Mrs. Meller. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Had you heard of the Oswalds prior to that time? - -Mr. FORD. Yes; I had. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How? - -Mr. FORD. I first heard of them, I think, from either George Bouhe or -maybe from Max Clark who lives in Fort Worth but I think it was George -Bouhe. He had mentioned the name of Lee Oswald and briefly described -his history, his story of his going to Russia, attempting to give -up his American citizenship, and later returning from Russia with a -Russian wife and child, and living in Fort Worth, and we were, my wife -is Russian and we were interested in meeting her. George Bouhe, I -think, at the time was attempting to help Lee Oswald find employment. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you say "her" in that sentence you are referring to -Mrs. Marina Oswald? - -Mr. FORD. Yes; Marina Oswald. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the reason why basically you went to the lunch at -the Mellers to meet Lee and Marina Oswald? - -Mr. FORD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any conversation with the Oswalds at that time? - -Mr. FORD. There was, most of the conversation was in Russian which -I don't understand. I had very little conversation with Lee himself -because he spoke Russian most of the time that afternoon and Marina -didn't speak any English at all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations in English with Oswald -about living conditions in Russia, about his expenses in Russia? - -Mr. FORD. A little bit. He showed me pictures of people that he had -worked with in Russia. I believe they were on a picnic together, a -group of men, and various other pictures of places he had seen in -Minsk, and he briefly described the living conditions in Russia, I -guess the conditions under which he had lived in Russia, the small room -they had to live in, and he said something about how much money he made -there. I don't remember how much it was though. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of a job he had? - -Mr. FORD. No, he didn't. I think George Bouhe told me he had been a -sheet metal worker or something similar to that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In Minsk? - -Mr. FORD. In Minsk, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald compare to you the amount of money that he was -paid with the amount of money that other workers in the plant were paid? - -Mr. FORD. No; he said nothing about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate in any way any source of income other -than from his job? - -Mr. FORD. None. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At any time did he do that? - -Mr. FORD. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever learn of anything like that? - -Mr. FORD. No; I have heard people speak of it but I have never heard -him or anybody that knew him say he had another source of income. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have heard people speak of it when, since the -assassination? - -Mr. FORD. Since the assassination. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you heard nothing of it prior to the assassination? - -Mr. FORD. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get any impressions of Oswald at this first -meeting? - -Mr. FORD. I had an impression that he was not the type of person I -could make friends with very easily. He didn't impress me as being -friendly to me as a person. He was kind of closed up within himself. -And it seemed to me he preferred to speak in Russian rather than in -English. He wanted to practice speaking Russian with the Russian -speaking people rather than talking to me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mrs. Oswald have any bruises on her at that time? - -Mr. FORD. Yes, she did. On her face. - -Mr. LIEBELER. On her face. Was there any conversation about that? - -Mr. FORD. Not directly with me. My wife told me that Mrs. Oswald told -her it was due to some accident of running into a door at nighttime -while she was getting up to see what--the baby crying, something like -that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you accept that explanation? - -Mr. FORD. I didn't--well, really, I didn't accept it. It just didn't -make much sense but it didn't make an impression one way or the other -to me. I frankly at the time thought of a standard cartoon joke of -a kid explaining his black eye, by a kid explaining he ran into a -doorknob. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anything that happened at this first luncheon -that impressed you about Oswald or his attitude, in any way that you -think the Commission should know about? - -Mr. FORD. Very little. Except he seemed reserved, and I would call -excessively polite, and the fact I don't think he made any effort to -make friends with the other people. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When was the next time that you had any contact with -Oswald? - -Mr. FORD. The next time I saw him was the night I drove Marina from our -house to another friend's house, Mr. Frank Ray's house. She had been -staying at our house for about a week and she had been separated from -him. - -I had been out of town and when I came home she was invited to stay -over at Mr. Ray's house and I took her over there, I think it was on a -Friday evening. - -Lee Oswald called and wanted to talk to Marina and wanted then to come -out and see her. Mr. Ray told him if he would get on the bus and come -to the bus stop nearest their home that he would pick him up, and I -went with Mr. Ray to pick up Lee Oswald at the bus stop. - -We went back to Mr. Ray's home, and had a short conversation with Lee -Oswald but he said he wanted to talk to Marina, and he and Marina went -into another room. I don't know exactly how long it was but we sat -down and had one or two drinks, and then Lee came back in and said he -and his wife were going to have a reconciliation and she wanted to go -home with him that evening. Mr. Ray offered to drive them back to their -place in Oak Cliff, and then I went home. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were out of town throughout the entire time that -Marina stayed with your wife? - -Mr. FORD. Except for the last night. She stayed there one more night -after I came home. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any impression on Oswald that evening -different from the one that you originally had of him? - -Mr. FORD. Only it confirmed my original thought. I remember one -instance. Frank asked him where he was working and he would never -identify the place he was working. He would hedge, I forget his exact -words, but he mentioned that he was working, I think in a printing -shop, either printing or photographic developing shop, and Mr. Ray -asked him the name of the place, I think, twice, and he avoided -answering. He would just start talking about something completely -different. - -In other words, when he didn't want to answer a question he would -either change the subject or just start talking to somebody else. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You had no independent knowledge of where he was working -at that time? - -Mr. FORD. I didn't know the name. I had heard he was employed in this -shop that I think was a printing and photographic developing shop. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have anything to do with his getting that job? - -Mr. FORD. No, I didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether your friend did? - -Mr. FORD. I am not sure. I think either George Bouhe or maybe Theo -Meller may have introduced him to the owner of the shop but I am not -sure about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with either Mr. Meller or -Mr. Bouhe about this? - -Mr. FORD. I have had conversations with them, but it was prior to this -night when Lee came to make a reconciliation with his wife. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you that they had anything to do with his -getting this job? - -Mr. FORD. I don't specifically remember that they said so. I either -assumed this or something they said led me to believe it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with the Rays that evening -while you were taking Marina over there about the difficulties that the -Oswalds had in their marriage? - -Let's expand the question. Think about that, and also think about any -conversations that you may have had with your wife about that after -you went back, and tell us the conversations that you had with anybody -at that time about the incidents of the separation, what caused it and -what was the trouble between the Oswalds? - -Mr. FORD. I don't believe I had any discussion with either Mr. or Mrs. -Ray about specifically the difficulties in their marriage between -Marina and Lee Oswald. - -The only thing I remember is frankly saying something to the effect, -well, he is really a screwy nut, or something, he can't find ways to -work, something to that effect. - -I have not discussed their personal problems. But I have discussed it -with my wife about it prior to that and after that and also after the -assassination and it was my understanding when she left her husband it -was because he had beat her up. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody tell you any of the details about why he had -done that or what the cause of the trouble was? - -Mr. FORD. Not at the time. My wife didn't tell me anything about that. -Again, after the assassination, she told me more about it, but I don't -know if Marina had mentioned this prior to the assassination, the year -before that when she stayed at our house, or whether she mentioned it -after the assassination, I don't know the exact time that these details -were brought out. - -My wife did mention that perhaps Marina antagonized him by arguing with -him, talking back to him, or something like that whereas if she just -learned to be quiet when he said something he might not have hit her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't recall whether that was developed during or -at the time or later on? - -Mr. FORD. I don't remember whether she told me that before the -assassination or not. I know we have talked about it since the -assassination. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When was the next contact that you had with the Oswalds? - -Mr. FORD. The next contact was after Christmas 1962. Between Christmas -and New Year's we gave a cocktail party and some friends of ours, -George De Mohrenschildt and his wife were invited and later called my -wife and asked her if it would be all right to bring Lee and Marina to -the party and my wife said sure, bring them along or might have asked -me if it was all right to bring them along and I said sure. It was -prior to December 28. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald come with De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. FORD. Yes, he came with De Mohrenschildt. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know anything about the relations between Oswald -and the De Mohrenschildts? - -Mr. FORD. I knew they were friends, no more than that. How often they -saw each other or what they talked about or anything they talked about -I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How old are the De Mohrenschildts? - -Mr. FORD. I guess George De Mohrenschildt is between 50 and 55 years -old. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem curious to you that a man that age would be -close to Lee Oswald who was around 21 or 22 at that particular time? - -Mr. FORD. Not in the particular case. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say that? - -Mr. FORD. Well, George De Mohrenschildt has a reputation for being -a left-wing enthusiast or something, I don't mean a member of the -Communist Party, but he is, I have heard other people say he has -expounded the ideals of Marxism and since Lee Oswald was supposedly a -Marxist or a Communist they would agree on their political views. - -Again, I have never heard George De Mohrenschildt expound on any of -these ideas. I have met him socially several times and he is very -pleasant, a big, good looking man, but other than their agreement on -what is the ideal political system, I can't think of anything else they -would have in common. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your knowledge of De Mohrenschildt's political views are -hearsay? - -Mr. FORD. All of it is hearsay. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did you learn about Oswald's political views? - -Mr. FORD. Also hearsay, from other people. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us who told you about it? - -Mr. FORD. I can't remember anybody, any specific statement from -anybody, but I have discussed it with people like both my wife and -George Bouhe and I don't remember if I discussed it with the Mellers -or not but it seems I have heard this from several different people -about just about everybody who knew them, the Oswalds, this was one of -the things that people were leary about in dealing with him was his -reputation for being a Communist. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he have that reputation in the community? - -Mr. FORD. Yes, I think he had that reputation of either--not being -a member, say, of the Communist Party, but his political ideas were -either Marxist or Communist or something he had derived from reading -Karl Marx, I suppose. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he expressed any extreme antagonism -or antagonism of any sort toward the Government of the United States? - -Mr. FORD. The only occasion I know of was the first time I met him, he -did blame the U.S. Embassy for delaying his exit, the exit of he and -his wife from Russia. - -He did state if it had not been for their delaying the exit visa that -his daughter would have been born in the United States rather than -Russia. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say anything more about that, do you remember any -more in detail? - -Mr. FORD. Not that I heard of or can remember. - -Representative FORD. Did he think the birth of his daughter in Russia -rather than in the United States was something important, did it appear -that way? - -Mr. FORD. I don't know how important he thought it was. It actually -started as a joke. We also had a baby born shortly before that and I -said, "Pretty little Russian girl" or something like that, and he made -a statement, "She is just as much a Texan as your son," and then went -on to explain that if the U.S. Embassy had acted more quickly that he -and Marina could have left Russia and that June, the daughter, would -have been born in the United States. - -I don't know whether he placed any great importance on it or not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever appear to you to have any kind of a sense -of humor? - -Mr. FORD. None whatsoever. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say anything about the attitude the Russian -authorities took when he wanted to come back to the United States and -bring his wife back with him? - -Mr. FORD. He never said anything to me. I think he may have while he -was talking Russian with these other people. He may have mentioned the -fact that it was easier, they got their visa for he and his wife from -the Russian authorities, the delay came from the American authorities, -but I don't specifically know whether it did. He said these things, -again it would be hearsay, again I would have heard it from my wife or -somebody else who could speak Russian who had either discussed it with -him or was present when he was discussing it with somebody else. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear Oswald or hear of Oswald making any -remarks that would indicate a hostility toward President Kennedy? - -Mr. FORD. No; never did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What about Governor Connally? - -Mr. FORD. Never heard that either, until after the assassination. I -saw newspaper copies of a letter he wrote to Governor Connally when -Governor Connally was Secretary of the Navy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I would limit my question to before the assassination? - -Mr. FORD. Before the assassination, no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear anything about his military career prior to -the assassination? - -Mr. FORD. No; in fact I had assumed prior to the assassination that he -had had an honorable discharge from the Marine Corps. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never had any discussions with him about that or -heard anybody discussing it? - -Mr. FORD. He said something the first time I met him, I can't -specifically remember what it was, but I got the impression that, at -that time that he had been a Marine Corps guard at the U.S. Embassy -in Russia and I can't remember whether he said this or somebody else -mentioned it or whether I just assumed it on my own. - -So I know my first idea was this was the way he had gotten to Russia. I -later learned he had gone on his own. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't remember any specific discussion with him -about this question? - -Mr. FORD. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where Oswald was living during this period -that his wife was separated from him and living with you and Mrs. -Meller? - -Mr. FORD. I knew he had an apartment in this Oak Cliff section of -Dallas. I don't remember the exact address. I don't know whether he -stayed there while Marina was in our house or not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You had no knowledge where he lived prior to the time -that he took the apartment in Oak Cliff, did you? - -Mr. FORD. Well, I think he lived in Fort Worth. I am not absolutely -sure. I believe this apartment in Oak Cliff was the first place he -lived in Dallas, but I am not absolutely sure about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You had never talked to him about it? - -Mr. FORD. No; never. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever visit the apartment? - -Mr. FORD. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, had we gotten to the Christmas party? - -Mr. FORD. You asked me about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us as best as you can recall the events of that -period. I think you said there was a party at your house on the 28th of -December. - -Mr. FORD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me if there were parties or get-togethers at which -you were present or of which you knew at other homes during that period. - -Mr. FORD. Well, there were, but I don't remember the specific dates -that they were. I think they were after the party at our house. There -was a party at George Bouhe's home, an apartment, during that period. I -think it was a few days after that, right in the period of New Year's -Eve, and I went to several celebrations. - -I would hate to try to recall exactly when each one of them was and who -was there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember going to George Bouhe's apartment? - -Mr. FORD. Yes; I remember going there but I don't remember the exact -date that it was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was Oswald at that meeting? - -Mr. FORD. No; he was not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any discussion of Oswald at that time? - -Mr. FORD. Not that I can remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any other parties that you attended during -that period? - -Mr. FORD. I don't remember any formal parties. I stopped and had drinks -with a lot of people. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Specifically, was there a get-together at your home the -night after the party that you had on the 28th of December? - -Mr. FORD. Not a formal party, just a group of people happened to show -up and we started another party. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there? - -Mr. FORD. Mr. and Mrs. Sullivan, friends of ours from New Orleans, and -Mr. and Mrs. Harris who were from Georgetown, Tex., and another Mr. and -Mrs. Ray, not the ones who live in Dallas, but these live in Paris, Tex. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would that be Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray? - -Mr. FORD. Thomas Ray. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Thomas Ray. And yourself and your wife? - -Mr. FORD. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Anybody else? - -Mr. FORD. Right now I can't remember anybody else who came in. It was -not a formal gathering, just people happened to stop in and we started -having a party. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of any discussion of Oswald -at that time? - -Mr. FORD. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember at any time having any discussion with -any of your Russian friends on the question of whether or not Oswald -was a Russian agent? - -Mr. FORD. Prior to the assassination? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. FORD. No; I don't remember prior to the assassination. There may -have been some but I don't remember any. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At the party at your home on the 28th of December, did -you have any conversation with Oswald? - -Mr. FORD. Said "hello, how are you," to he and Marina, and after that, -I can't remember Oswald talking to anybody there except one guest, a -Japanese girl, Yaeko, I forget her last name; my wife will remember. - -As nearly as I can remember she was the only person in the whole party -that he ever bothered to talk to. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether Oswald was drinking that evening? - -Mr. FORD. I fixed one drink for him, in a little liqueur glass full of -liqueur. As far as I remember he never touched it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever observe Oswald smoking? - -Mr. FORD. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't remember any discussion about Oswald after -he left that evening? - -Mr. FORD. No; after he left that evening, I don't recall any discussion -of him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any conversations with De Mohrenschildt -about Oswald? - -Mr. FORD. I don't remember any specific conversations with George De -Mohrenschildt. I may have. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was your impression of Oswald at this time as far -as his relations with the other members of the Russian community were -concerned, and generally? - -Mr. FORD. My impression was that he didn't want his wife to associate -with them, and that he resented any aid or help people tried to give -either he or his wife. I might say, I know, I have heard other Russian -people there, for example, would take Marina to a grocery store and -buy a load of groceries for her and take her back, and one girl that -went by and found the baby had a fever and nobody was taking it to the -hospital and she took Marina and the baby to the hospital for some -medical treatment for it, and I had the impression that Lee Oswald -resented this. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You gained that impression from conversations that you -had? - -Mr. FORD. From conversations with other people, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is there any---- - -Mr. FORD. I was also going to say---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Pardon me. - -Mr. FORD. I think during the period of 1962 that George Bouhe, for -example, thought it would be helpful for Marina to learn English and he -tried to encourage her to learn English and I had heard later that Lee -Oswald resented this, he didn't want her to learn English. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you hear that? - -Mr. FORD. That was back in 1962. I can't remember the specific time, -but---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversation with Mr. and Mrs. Harris at -the party at your place on the 28th of December? - -Mr. FORD. Oh, yes; I had conversations with them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear of an incident where Mrs. Harris was trying -to teach English to Marina at the party and certain American customs -and Oswald objected to it? - -Mr. FORD. I didn't observe it. She may have tried to teach her some -American customs. I don't remember hearing Oswald say anything about -it, Lee Oswald say anything about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mrs. Harris say anything about it to you? - -Mr. FORD. Not that I can remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you have no knowledge of that incident if it occurred -at all? - -Mr. FORD. No. It seems to me I have heard somebody else mention this -but I did not see it or hear anything myself. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after the party on the 28th of December that was -held at your house, when was the next contact that you had with either -one of the Oswalds? - -Mr. FORD. Well, I heard a few times or my wife had heard something -about Marina living in Irving, but never actually saw either one of -them until after the assassination. Then the first contact we had with -Marina was, I believe, my wife tried to get in touch with her, either -invite her to come to my house or to tell her that once things had been -cleared up, the investigation had been cleared up, to feel free to come -by, and let her know she still had friends. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody suggest to you shortly after the -assassination that Marina should come and live with you? - -Mr. FORD. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever express any hesitancy to anyone in -connection with any suggestion that Marina should come and live with -you? - -Mr. FORD. I don't remember ever expressing it. If somebody had -mentioned it the afternoon or next day after the assassination I -probably would have been a little bit hesitant about it. But I don't -remember saying anything to anybody. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when Marina moved into your home -after the assassination? - -Mr. FORD. Yes; but this was in February of this year. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you express any hesitancy at that time? - -Mr. FORD. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't recall expressing any immediately after the -assassination or before? - -Mr. FORD. No. I don't remember talking to anybody at all about it. I -mean the first few days immediately after the assassination, I don't -recall saying anything to anybody about it, where she was going to live -at my house or anybody else's. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any conversations with Mr. Jim Martin -on that subject? - -Mr. FORD. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now prior to the time that Marina came to live in your -home, your wife has testified she talked to Marina on the telephone -several times and that Marina came to visit on two or three occasions, -two occasions, I believe, at your home. - -Mr. FORD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to your wife about what Marina had said -during your wife's visits with Marina? - -Mr. FORD. When she came to visit us in our home? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. FORD. I talked to her about what she had talked to Marina, and I -couldn't carry on much of a conversation with Marina myself because she -didn't speak much English but I would ask my wife, and my wife would -tell me what she had said. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether there was any discussion about -Marina's testimony before this Commission, either before she went to -Washington or after she came back? - -Mr. FORD. No; not--my wife never told me before she came to Washington -to testify before the Commission. After she came back, I did overhear -some conversation between Marina, my wife, and Mr. William M. McKenzie -regarding the testimony given to the Commission. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us what that was to the best of your -recollection? - -Let me ask you this: Where did this occur? - -Mr. FORD. I think it was in Mr. McKenzie's office, it may have been -either in his office or my home but I think it was in his office, and I -believe the FBI had been questioning her this afternoon, I am not sure -of the date, and I came back later to pick up my wife and Marina and in -my presence Mr. McKenzie asked my wife to ask Marina in Russian if she -had told the Commission this Nixon story. I don't know the details of -the story, but something regarding the threat to Mr. Nixon. - -And I think Marina, again through my wife, told Mr. McKenzie that she -had not mentioned this to the Commission. But that she had mentioned it -to the FBI, and she had mentioned it, I believe to the FBI prior to the -Commission hearing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who told you that? - -Mr. FORD. Well, I was standing there while Mr. McKenzie was talking to -Marina using my wife as a translator. - -Representative FORD. Was this in your home, did you say? - -Mr. FORD. I think it was in Mr. McKenzie's office; it might have been -in my home. Several times I have overheard conversation either in Mr. -McKenzie's office or at my home. - -Representative FORD. It could have been in either? - -Mr. FORD. It could have been either, but it seems to me it was at -his office. I think as Marina said, she had not said anything to the -Commission about this, and then I think Mr. McKenzie asked her why -not, and she said well she hadn't thought of it or nobody asked her; -something to that effect. - -I think he was trying to establish whether or not she had purposely -withheld information from the Commission and she said no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear Marina Oswald make any remark to the -effect when she was before the Commission she just answered questions -and did not volunteer anything? - -Mr. FORD. I never heard her say that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody ever translate that, a remark like that, so -that you heard it when it was translated? - -Mr. FORD. No; I never heard anybody translate for Marina and say that; -no. - -In my presence, I never heard her say that and have it translated by -anybody. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear from anybody else that she had said -that? - -Mr. FORD. Not until yesterday when I was talking about it with you, -that I can remember anything. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And yesterday when we talked about it, I asked you the -question, had anybody said that, isn't that right? - -Mr. FORD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you obtain any information concerning the Nixon, -any detailed information concerning the Nixon affair as a result of -detailed conversations with your wife after she had had conversations -with Marina? I am assuming Marina would speak in Russian to your wife. -Did your wife ever tell you what Marina had ever said to her about the -Nixon affair? - -Mr. FORD. A little bit, not all the details. But something to the -effect that Lee Oswald was threatening, I don't know whether to shoot -Nixon, and in some way she had locked him in a bathroom and kept him -there, I think all day. He had calmed down or cooled off and wasn't -going to do anything. Just how she managed to do this, I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss the question with your wife as to how? - -Mr. FORD. No; not--again, I never discussed it until yesterday, last -night. I was talking to her and wondered how the devil she managed to -lock him in the bathroom. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you discussed that with your wife last night as a -result of a similar question that I asked you yesterday afternoon when -we were reviewing the testimony? - -Mr. FORD. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn anything relating to the Walker affair as a -result of conversations with your wife? - -Mr. FORD. Well, I had read about it in the newspapers; I had read -stories that Lee Oswald had told Marina that he had taken a shot at -General Walker and my wife did tell me later on she asked Marina if -this were true and I think Marina said this was true, that Lee Oswald -had told Marina he was the one who had taken a shot at General Walker. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the extent of your conversations about the Walker -incident? - -Mr. FORD. No; she mentioned something else that my wife told me about. -That after Lee had taken a shot at General Walker, he had hidden -the gun somewhere and went back the next day or a few days later -and recovered the gun. And that Lee was reading the reports in the -newspaper and made some statement, "Well, how stupid can the police -be," something to this effect. In other words, expressing the idea -that the police were unable to find out what happened in the Walker -incident. And then also Marina had said at one time, I believe the day -after the shooting of Walker or attempted shooting of Walker, George De -Mohrenschildt had come into the house and made some statement to them -regarding it. I can't remember the exact words but it was referring to -it, Walker, somebody shooting at General Walker, and asking Lee how he -could miss and she was surprised that De Mohrenschildt knew about it -and Marina thought Lee had told George De Mohrenschildt about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever learn how George De Mohrenschildt had -learned about it? - -Mr. FORD. No; I imagine he was surprised that Lee had done the shooting -and to him it would have been a good joke. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything else about the Walker incident -that you and your wife may have talked about? - -Mr. FORD. Yes; we have discussed it some after, I believe, Marina came -to stay with us, and I expressed the doubt that Lee Oswald was the one -who took a shot at Walker. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any basis for expressing that doubt? - -Mr. FORD. The only basis for it was that there was a story in one of -the newspapers that they could not identify the bullet taken out of the -wood in Walker's home as having come from a gun that Lee Oswald owned, -it was too badly destroyed and they couldn't be sure it was the gun, -the same gun, that shot the bullets at President Kennedy and Governor -Connally. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So on the basis of that newspaper story you expressed -doubts as to whether Oswald was actually involved in the Walker -incident? - -Mr. FORD. Well, I expressed the doubt. It was possible that he really -wasn't the one who took a shot at General Walker but just claimed he -did and this to me would not be surprising. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say that? - -Mr. FORD. Well, I think, my opinion of Lee Oswald is that he would do -anything to gain attention for himself, draw attention to himself, make -not necessarily a hero out of himself but just a well-known person. He -wanted attention. He wanted to be a big shot. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you think in an attempt to do that he might claim he -had been the one who shot at Walker where, in fact, he was not the one -at all? - -Mr. FORD. It is possible, I think it is possible. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with your wife in which -your wife told you anything that Marina said about the details of the -assassination, about Lee's coming home to Irving and his leaving for -Dallas the next morning? - -Mr. FORD. Well, we talked about it; I don't recall all the details of -what my wife told me, whether they were my wife's opinions or things -she had heard directly from Marina. - -Apparently Marina was surprised that he would come home in the -middle of the week rather than on weekends or come to visit her, -and I gathered that Marina had thought of these things after the -assassination, as she tried to figure things out. Well this increased -her belief that Lee Oswald was the man who assassinated the President, -because he did so many strange things that week, I mean that day -before, not the week, the day before the assassination. - -Mr. LIEBELER. To your knowledge, has Marina expressed any feeling about -Oswald's guilt while she lived with you or while you were acquainted -with her after the assassination, other than the fact he was guilty? - -Mr. FORD. No; so far as I know she just accepts the fact he was guilty. -He was the man who shot the President. And she believes this is true. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss this question with Robert Oswald? - -Mr. FORD. No, not specifically, I didn't. I never asked Robert Oswald -if he believed that his brother shot the President. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever indicate to you that he did not believe -that? - -Mr. FORD. Not directly. The only thing that might have indicated it -was when Life published a picture of Lee Oswald on the front cover and -I read a newspaper article which stated that Mrs. Marguerite Oswald -was intending to sue Life Magazine and I wondered why, was the picture -faked, and Robert Oswald said no it was a true picture of Lee Oswald -but the title of the picture, that is what he was upset about, and I -think the title was Lee Oswald holding the gun he either used to shoot -or used to kill the President, and I didn't pursue the subject further -with him. - -I don't know specifically what he was upset about, if he thought his -brother did shoot the President. There was nothing wrong with the -statement except he may not have liked it in print. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was the only statement Robert Oswald made to you -about the subject. - -Mr. FORD. But he never said he didn't believe his brother did it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other reasons for thinking that Oswald is -the kind of person who would claim to do something that he hadn't done -just to get attention drawn to him? - -Mr. FORD. Well, yes; I think he was erratic enough in his behavior -throughout his whole life to indicate that. Of course, I have read a -lot about his life since the assassination, so it is not all opinion I -formed prior to the assassination. - -It is hard for me to distinguish which things I thought before the -assassination from those I have thought about since the assassination. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In that respect let me ask you this question: Were -you surprised when you heard that Oswald had been charged with the -assassination? - -Mr. FORD. Yes, I was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think on the basis of your knowledge of him -before the assassination that he would have been capable of such a -thing? - -Mr. FORD. No; I wouldn't have thought so prior to the assassination and -when I first heard he was picked up, I first thought, well, as I said -to my wife, "This nut has gone down and got himself mixed up just to -get some publicity." - -Representative FORD. You said that to your wife? - -Mr. FORD. Yes; that was my first opinion. When I heard that Lee Oswald -was the man arrested, and I said I think I said, "This idiot has got -himself arrested and got himself mixed up to get some publicity". - -Mr. LIEBELER. What made you say that? - -Mr. FORD. Again, I considered him to be erratic and unpredictable, I -don't know how to explain the things that he would do. - -For example, he had gone to Russia and he didn't like it there, he had -gone back to Fort Worth and he didn't like it there. He didn't seem to -like any place that he was, he didn't seem to make lasting friendships -with anybody. And he would hop from one job to another, and move from -one town to another. He never seemed to be satisfied and I considered -his whole behavior rather erratic, and I suppose the main reason was, -I felt that he had no desire to support, and I felt this prior to the -assassination, he had no desire to support his wife and child, and he -wanted and would be quite willing to sponge off anybody to get their -support, and this was my primary reason for not wanting to associate -with him rather than any political feelings he had. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did these things lead you to think that he was not -capable of doing the assassination or that he just went there to get -involved? - -Mr. FORD. Prior to the assassination I never even considered the -possibility of his killing a man but if somebody had asked me prior to -the assassination, I would have answered no, I don't think he would -kill anybody. But I don't think I really even considered it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You would have---- - -Mr. FORD. When the President was assassinated. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you would have based that response on the things you -mentioned already. - -Is there anything else you would have based that reason on? - -Mr. FORD. Well, it is difficult to say. My general opinion of the -man was that he was strange and he did a lot of things I couldn't -understand but I had no reason to think he would attack a person with -the intent to kill him. - -As far as I knew there was nothing he had ever done before that that -would indicate he would ever kill anybody. I don't know how you tell -ahead of time whether a man can commit murder. I was never worried -about him going out and killing somebody: say I would have never said -prior to the assassination that you have got to watch out for this guy, -he is dangerous. He didn't impress me that way. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You had information prior to the assassination that he -had beaten his wife, did you not? - -Mr. FORD. Right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And did you take that information, would you take that, -into consideration in the judgment that you just expressed? - -Mr. FORD. No; I don't think so. I think man and wife can fight over -a lot of things and it isn't necessary that either one of them would -intend to kill somebody. He might become violent toward his wife, who -is a much smaller and weaker person but he never impressed me as the -type of person who would violently attack another man, for example. - -Mr. FORD. When did you first hear that Lee Oswald was held by the -authorities? - -Mr. FORD. It was the afternoon of the assassination, I heard on the -radio. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was your reaction then? - -Mr. FORD. Just what I said, my first reaction, "This idiot has gone -down to get himself some attention and confuse the whole issue." - -At that time I didn't know he was working in the School Book Depository -Building. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do subsequent to hearing this radio -broadcast? - -Mr. FORD. Let's see; I heard it in a hardware store and I went and -picked up my wife who was shopping at the grocery store, picked her up, -and told her what I had heard and we went home. I didn't do anything -specifically that I can think of. I did not mention it to anybody. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you and your wife on the way home from this shopping -trip discuss the apprehension of Lee Oswald and his implication in the -affair? - -Mr. FORD. Well, I told her the police had picked him up, and that he -was apparently being held both for the assassination of the President -and for shooting a police officer, and my wife was a little bit worried -then, I think, about the people's reaction to the children, and she -said, well, "Don't mention it in front of the children." - -By the time we got home, I believe Linda, my stepdaughter, had already -talked on the phone to Mrs. Anna Ray, who had also heard the radio -broadcast and called up to ask if my wife had heard it, and, of course, -by then it was too late, they knew who Lee Oswald was, they read who he -was, that Marina stayed at our house. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Then if I understand it you and your wife voluntarily -went down to police headquarters? - -Mr. FORD. Well, the next Sunday. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Two days later? - -Mr. FORD. Yes; the assassination was on a Friday afternoon. On Sunday -morning, Mr. Frank Ray called me and said he heard on the radio that -the FBI had requested anybody who knew Lee Oswald to please contact -them, and he asked me what I was going to do, I said, "Well, I don't -know, I will call an attorney and see what he suggests." I called Max -Clark at Fort Worth and he was out, so I called my sister out in Los -Angeles. She is an attorney and married to one, and I said, "Who are -you supposed to contact if you know information about Lee Oswald," and -she said she assumed it would be the FBI, so I then called the FBI -office and made an appointment to talk to an agent and we made the -appointment to talk in the FBI office in downtown Dallas. While we were -driving downtown I stopped to get some gas and the attendant told me -that somebody had just shot Lee Oswald and it was right about that time -that I went down to talk with the FBI. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In this interval between your first reaction and your -going to the interview with the FBI, did you and your wife discuss any -further the Oswald implications? - -Mr. FORD. I am sure we discussed it, but I can't remember exactly what -we said to each other about it. - -I think she was worried at first that her children would suffer some -prejudice from other people. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Marina's children? - -Mr. FORD. No; our children. And, of course, also that Marina was and -her two children, my wife felt, would be sort of considered persona -non grata in this country from then on, but I didn't consider this -would happen as long as she was not implicated in a plot to kill the -President. - -I know we discussed it but I just can't remember specifically what we -said. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Ford, did you at any time learn of any desire on -Oswald's part to return to Russia? - -Mr. FORD. Yes; after the assassination I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did you learn that? - -Mr. FORD. Well, partly from discussing it, I heard it through friends -and then later when Marina talked to my wife, I don't remember if this -was during the time she visited us during January or after she moved -in, but she did tell the story to my wife of his desire, as expressing -a desire, to return to Russia, and I am a little confused as to what -the story was. - -As nearly as I could make out he had told her he wanted to go back to -Russia first and then later said, no, he was going--couldn't get a visa -to Russia and he was going to try to get a visa and go through Cuba and -then go to Russia, and then I think he changed his mind again and said -he was going to ask for a visa to Cuba, using it as an excuse with the -idea of going to Russia and then stay in Cuba, and somewhere in there -I got the idea that Marina was not willing to go. He wanted Marina -to return to Russia and I had the impression this was just a--but I -couldn't even give you the details of her various statements which led -me to the conclusions--as nearly as I could figure out, this was the -story she had told my wife and she told me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn at any time through your wife or otherwise -that Marina Oswald at one point had contemplated committing suicide? - -Mr. FORD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about that? - -Mr. FORD. Well, the first time I heard it was yesterday. - -Mr. LIEBELER. During our conversations? - -Mr. FORD. During our conversations, yesterday. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And your wife explained to us in our conversations -yesterday that she, Marina Oswald, had told her at onetime contemplated -committing suicide? - -Mr. FORD. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was the extent of our conversations yesterday? - -Mr. FORD. Yes, sir. That is right. I think my wife said Marina felt so -desolate and downhearted that she felt that was the only way out at the -time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you finished? - -Mr. FORD. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other information or knowledge that -you think the Commission should know about in connection with these -matters that we haven't already asked you about? - -Mr. FORD. There is nothing I can think of offhand. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In our conversations yesterday you and your wife and I -discussed your testimony today. Have we covered those matters here in -the testimony and have there been any inconsistencies between what we -discussed yesterday and what we have discussed today on the record that -you can think of? - -Mr. FORD. No; I can't think of any inconsistencies. I assume we have -covered everything we discussed yesterday. I can't remember everything -we discussed yesterday, so I am just assuming we covered it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have no more questions then. - -The CHAIRMAN. Have you anything further, Congressman Ford? - -Representative FORD. Mr. Ford, you drove Marina Oswald from your home -to the Ray home? - -Mr. FORD. Yes. - -Representative FORD. In October or November of 1962? - -Mr. FORD. It was in November. - -Representative FORD. It was November of 1962. How long a drive is that? - -Mr. FORD. It is about 15 minutes. I guess it couldn't be over 7 or 8 -miles, 6, 7, 8 miles, something like that. - -Representative FORD. Did you have any conversation with her at that -time? - -Mr. FORD. No. She couldn't speak but about a half dozen words of -English. - -Representative FORD. So there was no real conversation between the two -of you? - -Mr. FORD. No. - -Representative FORD. That is all. - -Mr. MURRAY. Mr. Chief Justice, may I confer briefly with counsel? - -The CHAIRMAN. Where were you born? - -Mr. FORD. Los Angeles. - -The CHAIRMAN. Did you go to the public schools there? - -Mr. FORD. I attended both parochial and public schools in Los Angeles -and Glendale. - -The CHAIRMAN. Then you went to the University of California at Los -Angeles? - -Mr. FORD. Right. - -The CHAIRMAN. Where did you go after that. You were in the service, did -you say? - -Mr. FORD. I was in the service. After I got out of the service I went -back to UCLA and finished my education and then went to work in the oil -industry first in Bakersfield and in Los Angeles, Ventura, and then -went to work for DeGollyer and McNaughton overseas. - -The CHAIRMAN. I see. - -Representative FORD. How old are you, Mr. Ford? - -Mr. FORD. Forty-one. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Ford, were you at any time present in Mr. McKenzie's -office, William McKenzie, when there was a discussion with Marina -Oswald concerning guns and the gun that was used to or presumably used -to attack Walker and the gun that was subsequently presumably used to -attack the President? - -Mr. FORD. I don't remember any discussion. I have been in his office -several times when he was discussing things with Marina, but I don't -remember him ever asking about this gun or discussing this gun. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear McKenzie at anytime advise Marina if she -were asked about these guns she should say there was only one gun? - -Mr. FORD. I think I did hear him say that once or something to that -effect but I don't remember specifically the words. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you recall---- - -Mr. FORD. But I don't think it was any discussion about the gun used in -shooting General Walker. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about it. - -Mr. FORD. As nearly as I can remember it, the whole discussion was, he -was telling her, he had asked her if there was anything else but this -one rifle and she said no, and he said "be sure you always say that -there was just this one gun," but I thought he was referring to the gun -used only in the case of the assassination. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He asked her about this before he advised her? - -Mr. FORD. Apparently this was after she had been interrogated by the -FBI and I don't know--I just had the impression they were talking about -the possibility that more than one gun was used in the assassination of -President Kennedy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the best you can recall about that conversation? - -Mr. FORD. The best I can recall, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is all. - -The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Ford. I appreciate your coming -here with your wife. You have been very helpful. - -The CHAIRMAN. Let's call Mr. Gregory. - - -TESTIMONY OF PETER PAUL GREGORY - -Mr. Gregory, you were given a copy of a statement of the reason for our -meeting today, were you not? - -Mr. GREGORY. No, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Then I will read it to you. This is customary---- - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. We read a statement to the witness. - -The purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of Mr. and Mrs. -Declan P. Ford, and Mr. Peter Paul Gregory. The Commission has been -advised that Mr. and Mrs. Ford made the acquaintance of the Oswalds -shortly after their arrival in the United States in June of 1962, -and that Mrs. Marina Oswald lived in the Ford home on two different -occasions, in November 1962, and for a period following February 12, -1964. - -The Commission has also been advised that Mr. Gregory was contacted by -Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald shortly after Mr. Oswald's return from Russia -as a result of which Mr. and Mrs. Oswald made the acquaintances of a -large number of Russian speaking people in the Dallas and Fort Worth -area. Since the Commission is inquiring fully into the background -and possible motive of Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged assassin, it -intends to ask the above witnesses questions concerning Mr. Oswald, -his associations and relations with others, and any and all matters -relating to the assassination. - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Will you raise your right hand and be sworn, please, Mr. -Gregory. - -Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this -Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the -truth, so help you God? - -Mr. GREGORY. I do. - -The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated. - -Mr. Liebeler will ask the questions of you. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your name for the record, please? - -Mr. GREGORY. My name is Peter Paul Gregory. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And will you tell us where you were born? - -Mr. GREGORY. I was born in Chita, Siberia. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly how you came to the United -States? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir. - -I came to the United States on or about August 1, 1923. I landed in San -Francisco; came from Japan where I lived for 2 years prior to that. And -my purpose was, of course, to come as an immigrant and to attend the -University of California. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you attend the University of California? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir; I enrolled at the University in 1923 and I -stayed out of the University for a couple of years but I graduated in -1929 as a petroleum engineer at Berkeley. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What educational background did you have in Russia or -Japan before you came to the United States? - -Mr. GREGORY. I started my primary education in Russia, in 1912, and my -education was interrupted by civil war in 1919. I finished high school -or the equivalent of high school in Tokyo, Japan, where I attended the -American school in Japan. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you learn to speak English? - -Mr. GREGORY. I learned it in Japan. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you personally involved in the civil war in Russia? - -Mr. GREGORY. Not personally, no. I was too young; I was only 16, 17 at -the time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were any of your relatives involved in that? - -Mr. GREGORY. My older brother was an officer in the White Russian Army. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you presently reside in Fort Worth? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir. I have been residing in Fort Worth for the past -20 years, and prior to that in the oilfields in the western part of -Texas for 15 years, and prior to that I resided in California from 1923 -to 1929. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are presently self-employed in Fort Worth, is that -correct? - -Mr. GREGORY. I am presently chairman of the Yates Pool Engineering -Committee which is a group of engineers supervising activities in -the Yates oilfield in Pecos County, Tex., and I am also a consulting -petroleum engineer. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you are fluent in the Russian language, are you? - -Mr. GREGORY. I am, I think. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, you teach Russian at the Fort Worth Public -Library, is that correct? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes, I do; as a civic enterprise. I teach Russian once a -week from 10 to 20 weeks a year. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately how long have you been doing that, sir? - -Mr. GREGORY. For about 3 or 4 years. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us about your first contact with Lee -Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir. - -It was in the middle of June 1962. On that particular morning, I was in -the office, my telephone rang, and the voice on the other end told me -that my name was given to him by the Fort Worth Public Library. He knew -I was teaching Russian at the library, that he was looking for a job -as a translator or interpreter in the Russian and English languages, -and that he would like for me to give him a letter testifying to that -effect. - -He spoke to me in English, so I suggested to him, not knowing who that -was, that he might drop by my office and I would be glad to give him a -test. He did. He came by the office, about 11 o'clock that morning, and -I gave him a short test by simply opening a book at random and asking -him to read a paragraph or two and then translate it. - -He did it very well. So I gave him a letter addressed to whom it may -concern that in my opinion he was capable of being an interpreter or a -translator. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What happened after you gave Mr. Oswald--this individual -was Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir; that individual was Lee Harvey Oswald. - -After that, I asked him--I noticed that he spoke with what I thought -to be a Polish accent, so I asked him if he were of Polish origin, and -he stated that he was not, that he was raised in Fort Worth, Tex., but -that he learned Russian in the Soviet Union where he lived for 2-1/2 or -3 years. - -He also told me that he married a Russian girl, and that he brought -his wife with him, and that they also had a baby. I told him that I -knew of no openings at the time--I didn't know of any--for services of -a translator or interpreter, but that if he would leave his address I -would be glad to get in touch with him if and when I learned of any -such openings. - -He gave me his address. He lived with his brother at that time at the -western edge of Fort Worth. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever send him any work as a translator or -interpreter? - -Mr. GREGORY. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you and Mr. Oswald have lunch together that day. - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir. It was about noontime when I gave him that test, -so I invited him to lunch, and during the lunch being naturally curious -about the present day life in the Soviet Union, I was asking him -questions, asked how people lived there, and so forth. - -He told me that he was employed in a factory in Minsk as a sheet-metal -worker. He told me a little bit about the working conditions and living -conditions in that country. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how he was paid as a worker? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I think I asked him what he was paid and my -recollection is that he told me he was getting about 80 rubles a month. -I may be wrong about that but that is my recollection. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he compare his salary with the salary of other -workers in Russia? - -Mr. GREGORY. Other workers in the Soviet Union? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. GREGORY. No, he did not. By way of comparison. I was curious as to -what the purchasing power of his earnings would be, I asked him what 80 -rubles would buy, and I think he mentioned, as I say, a pair of shoes -cost around 15 rubles. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you that he had any source of income -other than his job at the factory? - -Mr. GREGORY. No, sir; he did not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you anything about why he went to Russia? - -Mr. GREGORY. The only statement he made that I remember, he said, "I -went to the Soviet Union on my own," but I did not feel like prying -into his affairs. I did not press the question. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice anything about the way he was dressed or -anything else about him that would seem strange to you? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes; it was a very hot morning. You know in Texas in the -middle of June, it is generally hot. I remember that he wore a flannel, -woolen coat, suit, and atrocious looking shoes that were made in Russia. - -I know he was very uncomfortable because he was too warmly dressed for -that time of the year. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Oswald tell you anything else at that time about -conditions in the Soviet Union or his attempt to come back to the -United States or bringing his wife back that you can recall? - -Mr. GREGORY. I don't recall of anything outstanding that he told me. -But I think he did tell me that they, he and his wife, left Moscow by -train, and they went through East Germany to Berlin, I believe, and -that their destination was Amsterdam, I believe, where they took a ship -to come to New York. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he express anything about any difficulties that he -might have had in returning to the United States? - -Mr. GREGORY. No, sir; not to my recollection. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem extraordinary to you that his wife was able -to leave the Soviet Union with him or didn't you think about that? - -Mr. GREGORY. I thought at the time it was more than extraordinary. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say that? - -Mr. GREGORY. Because simply from reading accounts of the difficulties -experienced by so many Americans who married Russian girls in the -Soviet Union, and all the difficulties they had to secure permits from -the Soviet Government for an exit visa for their wives. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss that with Mr. Oswald? - -Mr. GREGORY. I did not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When was the next time you saw him? - -Mr. GREGORY. The next time was a few days later, and the occasion was -this, to the best of my recollection. My youngest son Paul, who at -the time was a junior at the University of Oklahoma, Paul majoring in -economics and also studying the Russian and the German languages, Paul -expressed a wish to meet Marina Oswald simply because she was fresh -from the country, Russia; that presumably her language was pure Russian -language as compared to mine which became, shall we say, affected by -my 40 years living in the United States, is not pure Russian any more -probably, in fact, he thought that maybe he could take lessons of the -Russian language from Marina Oswald. - -So, I arranged; I called Lee Oswald at his brother's residence, and -asked if it would be, if they would be, at home, that my son and I -would come out to visit them, and we did. I don't remember the date but -it must have been within possibly within 10 days, the first 10 days -after his initial contact with me at the office. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Let us try to set the date of your initial contact. I -have here a copy, not a confirmed copy, but just a typewritten copy of -a letter entitled "To Whom it May Concern." I show it to you and ask -you if that is the letter to the best of your recollection that you -gave to Mr. Oswald? - -Mr. GREGORY. I think that is a copy of the letter I gave. That was on -June 19, 1962. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I ask that it be admitted in evidence and marked as the -next exhibit. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be marked. - -It will be marked as Exhibit 384. - -Very well, it is admitted as Exhibit 384. - -(The letter referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 384 for -identification and received in evidence.) - -Mr. GREGORY. I would hazard a guess that the second contact with Lee -Oswald that I just referred to was made, say, around the 25th, toward -the end of June 1962. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you went to see him at his brother's house? - -Mr. GREGORY. At his brother Robert's, Robert Oswald's house. Paul and I -spent there perhaps an hour, speaking Russian with Marina, and mostly -with Marina. They showed some pictures, snapshots of their friends, of -themselves, taken in Minsk. We talked about the living conditions, just -in a very general way. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss politics with Mr. Oswald? - -Mr. GREGORY. No, sir; we did not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss politics with him at any time? - -Mr. GREGORY. Not with Lee Oswald, no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get the impression from just talking to the -Oswalds at this time that Oswald was treated pretty much as other -Russians were in Russia or did you think he had a special situation -there in any way? - -Mr. GREGORY. My personal impression was that he was treated there as -the rest of the Russians. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did your son subsequently have additional contacts with -the Oswalds? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. He and I made arrangements for Marina Oswald to give -him lessons, conversational lessons, I believe it was twice a week, and -Paul paid her for these lessons. I don't remember the exact amount, -whether it came under the minimum or not, it was around a dollar and -a half an hour. And he took those lessons after he made a visit to -his aunt in San Francisco in July of 1962. So, I would say that he -took lessons from Marina Oswald, say, from approximately August 1 to -September 15 when he went back to the university of Oklahoma. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when the last contact was that your son -had with the Oswalds? - -Mr. GREGORY. To the best of my knowledge his last contact with them was -the Thanksgiving Day of 1962. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did your son tell you whether he had discussions with -Oswald concerning politics and economics and things like that? - -Mr. GREGORY. He mentioned once, I believe, that there were political -discussions. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you about that? - -Mr. GREGORY. He told me that he thought Lee Oswald was pretty silly in -his views. - -The CHAIRMAN. Pretty silly? - -Mr. GREGORY. Silly. - -The CHAIRMAN. Silly. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he express any other---- - -Mr. GREGORY. He also mentioned that he saw some book on Marxism, -whether it was Das Kapital or some other book I don't recall now, -but he saw a book on Marxism in Lee's residence when they lived on -Mercedes Street in Fort Worth. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say in words or substance that he thought that -Oswald was a half-baked Communist? - -Mr. GREGORY. I think that is the expression he used, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did there--did you ever go to Oswald's own apartment? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes, I went there once to take Paul to his lesson. I, in -other words I visited in their so-called living room once, when they -lived on Mercedes Street. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In Fort Worth? - -Mr. GREGORY. In Fort Worth, yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us what the conditions in their home were -like? - -Mr. GREGORY. It was practically a bare room. There was no furniture to -speak of. There was the bare necessities; there was no playpen or crib -for the baby. The baby was playing in the middle of the floor in the -living room, as I remember. It was an extremely primitively furnished -room, and the rest of the house was the same way. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any impression as to whether the Oswald baby -was being adequately cared for? - -Mr. GREGORY. No; that I don't know. I do know this, that Oswald showed -outward signs of love toward the baby. He would pucker his lips and -this and that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Indicating that he had affection for the child? - -Mr. GREGORY. For the child. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At that visit did you have any discussion with Oswald -about living conditions or anything else in Russia? - -Mr. GREGORY. No, sir; I simply took Paul in for that lesson, and I left -before the lesson began. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did there come a time when you held a dinner party -to which you invited Mr. Oswald? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. Well, really, it was not a dinner party. It was a -small dinner. I mentioned the fact that Marina Oswald went to school -in Leningrad, formerly St. Petersburg prior to the revolution, and -a friend of mine, George Bouhe of Dallas, who is an accountant, was -born and raised in St. Petersburg. He indicated to me that he would -like to meet Marina Oswald and his fellow townswoman and townsman, so -I discussed it with my wife, and she thought she will invite Marina -Oswald and Lee Oswald and Mr. Bouhe, and a friend of Mr. Bouhe, Mrs. -Meller of Dallas, to their dinner. I am sure Paul was at home at that -time, so there were six of us at the dinner and my wife and my son. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us when the dinner was held? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes; it was before Paul went back to school so I assume it -was in the early party of September, maybe it was late in August. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Bouhe is a native born Russian? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes; he was born in St. Petersburg. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What about Mrs. Meller? - -Mr. GREGORY. I assume Mrs. Meller was born in Ukrania. - -Mr. LIEBELER. During this dinner party was there any discussion between -Mrs. Meller and Mr. Bouhe with the Oswalds concerning their background, -experiences in Russia? - -Mr. GREGORY. The conversation, as I recall it, centered mostly on St. -Petersburg. Bouhe brought with him his albums of St. Petersburg, and he -was asking her and they were both looking at the pictures, and is such -and such statue on the main street of St. Petersburg, and so on and so -forth. I think that was the gist of the conversation. - -They also discussed the present day life in the Soviet Union. I do -recall, the conversation was mostly with Marina, and she did not speak -any English at that time, so all of that conversation was in the -Russian language, which my wife does not understand at all. - -I remembered that Lee Oswald hazarded, he would interject into the -conversation, and he was a little bit critical of the attitude of the -Soviet Government toward its own people, and here is what I am trying -to say; he said they make the best shoes in Minsk for export, and -the people get the--and I think he indicated his own shoes, which he -still wore at that time. Then just very, very slight criticism, not -politically, but sort of in the sense of economics that the people were -not getting the best products, they were all for export. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, at that time was there any indication that Oswald -was better treated than other people in the Soviet Union or did you -maintain the impression throughout your acquaintance with Oswald that -he was treated similarly to other Russians? - -Mr. GREGORY. That was my impression, that he was treated the same as -other Russians. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you detect any friction between Marina Oswald and Lee -Oswald at this dinner? - -Mr. GREGORY. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any indication at that time that Lee Oswald had -beaten his wife in any way? - -Mr. GREGORY. Not at that time; no, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see any indication that Marina Oswald had -been beaten? - -Mr. GREGORY. No, sir; I haven't seen it personally. I have heard -reports from my friends that he did mistreat her physically, and that -he had blackened her eyes, and once even extinguished a cigarette on -her shoulder, something like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who told you that? - -Mr. GREGORY. To the best of my recollection it was either--I think it -was Bouhe or it could have been Mrs. Meller, but I believe it was Bouhe. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That was at a time subsequent to this dinner party? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir; subsequent. It was after the assassination of -the President. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That Bouhe told you? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald at all discuss the reason why he went to -Russia? - -Mr. GREGORY. No; he just told me, you know once, the very first time I -met him that he went there on his own. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate any desire to return to Russia? - -Mr. GREGORY. I learned subsequently that he did but he never indicated -it to me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald maintained contacts with -people that he had associated with in Russia? - -Mr. GREGORY. None to my knowledge. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know that he wrote them letters? - -Mr. GREGORY. No, sir. Excuse me, sir, when you asked me about his -relations with Marina Oswald, I don't know whether this is of any -importance or not, but during my first visit at their apartment -on Mercedes Street in Fort Worth, the second time I saw Marina, I -suggested to him that he should insist that she learn English as -quickly as possible because it would be so much easier for her to get -along in this country, and he replied that he would prefer that she -did not learn English at all or else he would lose his fluency in the -Russian language. - -So it showed to me that he didn't particularly care about her. He cared -more about himself. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you say anything to him in response to that? - -Mr. GREGORY. No, sir; I was frankly very much disgusted with that sort -of attitude. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever come to your office? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes, he came to my office once or twice more. Once I -was in the office when he came, and at that time, apparently he was -downtown, my office is downtown in Fort Worth, he brought with him some -typewritten sheets which he told me he was writing his memoirs of his -life in the Soviet Union. - -I remember seeing, I did not read the manuscripts at all, but I saw -some snapshots or photographs attached to some typewritten sheets. - -Mr. LIEBELER. During this time that you--did you have any other -contacts with Oswald? - -Mr. GREGORY. Well, he came to the office once more but I was not in the -office, my secretary told me that he came by. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what he came to your office for? Did he -indicate any particular reason for coming there? - -Mr. GREGORY. I don't recall. I don't know why he came back. Frankly, -I don't remember. Here is something else that--one of the newspaper -reporters came to the office and asked me if I would deliver a letter -to Oswald, a reporter who tried several times to contact Oswald and get -the story of his life or something like that, and they simply refused -to see him. Why he choose me, I don't know. How he learned that Oswald -came to my office, I don't know. But this man came and asked me to -deliver this letter to Oswald the next time he came to the office, and -I remember now that he did come once or twice more because I handed him -that letter, and Oswald took it and put it in his pocket. - -Representative FORD. When were these visits, the second and third -visits to your office? - -Mr. GREGORY. I would say that was probably during the month of July -1962. - -Representative FORD. 1962. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever ask you to help him work on a book? - -Mr. GREGORY. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That he was working on? - -Mr. GREGORY. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Other than these contacts we have discussed, did you have -any other contacts with Oswald ever? - -Mr. GREGORY. Well, I was at home when my son Paul answered a telephone -call from Lee Oswald and he asked if Paul would come to get them, I -guess they were at his brother's, they were going to Dallas, they moved -to Dallas by then, so it must have been in October or maybe it was---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was it Thanksgiving? - -Mr. GREGORY. It could have been Thanksgiving. It was Thanksgiving. -It was Thanksgiving Day. Paul went to Oswald, Robert Oswald, and -brought Marina and Lee Oswald and the baby to the house. He fixed -some sandwiches for them and he took them to the bus station and they -went to Dallas where they had already established residence. That -was the last time I saw Lee Oswald and Marina Oswald until after the -assassination of the President. - -Mr. LIEBELER. On the basis of your contacts with Lee Oswald during this -period of time, did you form any judgment of him? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir; I think I did. He impressed me as a man that, -first, he carried some sort of a chip on his shoulder. I also had the -impression that, probably unfounded on my part, I don't know, I just -formed that impression, that he, Lee Oswald, felt that he did not get -proper recognition from the people, say, in the United States, maybe -even in the Soviet Union. I don't know. In other words, I felt like he -thought that he was a better man than the other people thought he was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have the feeling that he desired to achieve -recognition? - -Mr. GREGORY. That is my distinct impression of him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any opinion as to whether he was ever able -to command this recognition and respect that he was seeking? - -Mr. GREGORY. I don't think so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he was an intelligent person? - -Mr. GREGORY. Fairly. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think he was capable of performing an act such as -an assassination of a President? - -Mr. GREGORY. Definitely. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What do you base that opinion on? - -Mr. GREGORY. Well, he was a Marine; he, as I said, he carried a chip -on his shoulder. From the best--from what I have read and so forth, I -personally am of the opinion that he assassinated the President. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Well now, based on your knowledge of him prior to the -assassination did you have any reason to believe that he might do such -a thing? - -Mr. GREGORY. Prior to that time, no, sir. I didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't regard him as a dangerous individual or -something of that sort, did you? - -Mr. GREGORY. Well, I thought he was--I did not think he was an -unbalanced person or crazy person or anything like that. I would say he -was sort of, I would say I thought he was sort of a peculiar person but -I never thought he would do an act like that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever make the acquaintance of the mother? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us about that? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. As I mentioned earlier, I teach Russian once a -week at the library. We started a new series of lessons on November -12, 1963, and in my class there was a lady by the name of Marguerite -Oswald. Frankly, I never connected her with Lee Oswald. Oswald was -just a name to me, and I did not learn about it until the day of the -assassination. Or the next day, the next day, that she was his mother. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mrs. Oswald call you on the telephone at any time -after the assassination? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. She called me---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about it? - -Mr. GREGORY. Sunday morning, November 24, about 7 o'clock in the -morning, from Dallas. - -Representative FORD. This is the mother called? - -Mr. GREGORY. The mother. Sunday morning about 7 o'clock in the morning, -and she said, I still remember, she said, "Mr. Gregory, I need your -help. The reporters, the news media were badgering me." I think that is -the word she used. She said, "I wonder if some of your friends or you -could provide a place for me to hide from them." And it sounded like -she was crying on the telephone, although I think that woman is not -taken to crying. - -So I told her--she did not want to identify herself when she called -me first. I asked her, I said, "Who are you?" And she said, "I would -rather not tell you who I am but I shall identify myself by saying I am -one of the students in the Russian class in the library." Of course, I -knew it was Mrs. Oswald. In fact, I guessed who she was before she even -tried to identify herself. So I told her, I said, "Now, I will tell you -what I will do, Mrs. Oswald, you stay where you are and I will promise -to you that I will come to see you sometime today." Of course, I knew -where she was because the Secret Service told me where they had her -before. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Secret Service contacted you the day before? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. On Saturday? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Isn't it a fact they had asked you to come and translate -an interview with Marina Oswald? - -Mr. GREGORY. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't do it because you didn't need to do it -that day? - -Mr. GREGORY. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Lee Oswald that day? - -Mr. GREGORY. No, I did not see him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you later on Sunday go to see Mrs. Marguerite Oswald? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. As soon as I hung up the phone, I was talking to -Marguerite Oswald, I called the U.S. Secret Service and reported this -call, of course, and an agent, I called Agent Howard, who lives just -north of Fort Worth, and he said, "Well, that is fine, we will find a -hiding place for her, for Marguerite and Marina Oswald and the babies," -and he suggested he come by my house in a matter of 45 minutes or an -hour and we will go to Dallas and then proceed from there. And that is -what we did then. We went to Dallas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You went to the Executive Inn where Marina and Mrs. -Oswald were staying at that time, is that right? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir; we went to the Executive Inn, and on the way -we stopped en route on the turnpike, where the agents arranged a -rendezvous with Robert Oswald and other agents, and we went to the -Executive Inn in Dallas by the airport, and Robert and I went in and -we told the women to pack up, that we were going to take them to, -Robert told them we were going to take them to, the farm of his wife's -parents, north of Fort Worth. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But Mrs. Oswald objected to that? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes, she objected, she said she didn't want to go there. -But I told her that she bothered me to come, to call me at the house to -provide a place for her and here I am, and if she doesn't like it then -I am just through with her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You told her that? - -Mr. GREGORY. So she packed up and we got with the agents in two or -three cars, two cars, and we started toward that farm of Robert -Oswald's parents. But en route we detoured because Marguerite Oswald -mentioned the fact that the two little babies were all wet, and that -there were no diaper change for them, that Marina and she had no change -of dresses, and so forth, and she insisted that we go by Irving where -Marina lived with Ruth Paine. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Then you went and obtained some materials for the babies -there? - -Mr. GREGORY. Well, we didn't go to the house because we got the report -that Lee Oswald was shot. You see, that all happened Sunday morning, it -was 11 o'clock in the morning, we were driving from Dallas to Irving -and we got this report that Lee was shot, and the police advised us not -to go to the house because there was a mob, so we went to the Chief of -Police of Irving, to his residence. Marina telephoned Ruth Paine from -there to gather these things for the babies and a change of dress for -her and some money and so forth. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You went from there, then, to Parkland Hospital where -some events occurred and then you came back to the Inn of the Six Flags? - -Mr. GREGORY. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I want to ask you about something that might have -happened or happened at the Inn of the Six Flags. - -There has been a newspaper report, and Mrs. Marguerite Oswald has said -that on Saturday night an FBI agent came to the Executive Inn and -showed her a picture of a man who she claims to be Jack Ruby. Have you -seen newspaper reports to that effect? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes, I have seen reports to that effect. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mrs. Oswald says, also, that while at the Inn of the -Six Flags she observed a newspaper that had Jack Ruby's picture in it -and exclaimed in the presence of other people that that was the same -picture as the FBI had showed her, that is what she says. Did you ever -hear her say anything like that? - -Mr. GREGORY. No, sir; not to my recollection. - -Mr. LIEBELER. She never did anything like that in your presence? - -Mr. GREGORY. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After you met Mrs. Oswald, Marguerite Oswald, and had a -chance to observe her, did that further your judgment of Lee Harvey -Oswald in any way? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir. I felt that a lot of his, many of his, -peculiarities, possibly were brought on by the influence of his mother. - -To me, she impressed me as being not necessarily rational. She is -quite clever, but she certainly is most peculiar. She demands public -attention, she wants to be the center of attention. As, for example, -standing there in the middle of the room at the motel of that Six -Flags, standing in the middle of the room saying "I want to make a -statement," and she made those statements throughout the frequent -intervals and always she would precede the statement by saying, "I want -to make a statement. I feel that my son can't be buried anywhere but at -the Arlington National Cemetery." - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you detected similarities between Mrs. Oswald and Lee? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I felt they both craved public recognition or to be -craving attention or publicity or whatever you wish to call it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In our conversation last evening about your testimony, I -asked you about Mrs. Ruth Paine, and you told me that Mrs. Ruth Paine -had come to visit you at a time subsequent to the assassination. - -Mr. GREGORY. No, sir; she never did. Ruth Paine? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. GREGORY. No. She called me on the phone once. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Called on the telephone? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. But I have never met her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was the conversation between you and her? - -Mr. GREGORY. She asked me if I would tutor her in writing letters in -Russian. If I remember, she mentioned that she either was going to -write to the Soviet Embassy or Soviet Union, something like that, but -I told her I was just too busy, I have no time for that. In fact, I -didn't want to have anything to do with that sort of--I didn't want to -write letters to the Soviet Union or to the Embassy or anybody else. - -Representative FORD. How long have you taught Russian, Mr. Gregory? - -Mr. GREGORY. In the library? - -Representative FORD. Yes. - -Mr. GREGORY. For approximately 3 or 4 years from 10 to 20 weeks a year. - -Representative FORD. Have you taught Russian in any other area or -capacity? - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir; I taught Russian a couple of years ago, not more -than 2 years ago, at Carswell Air Force Base at Fort Worth, where I had -a class of officers and men in the Russian language. With the result -that two out of my class passed the Russian examination, and the rest -flunked. - -Representative FORD. How long would you estimate it would normally -take for a person of average intelligence to learn to speak and write -Russian as fluently as Oswald did? - -Mr. GREGORY. If he lived in this country or in that country? That would -make a lot of difference. - -Representative FORD. Well, let's take this country first. - -Mr. GREGORY. This country. That would depend again on the effort put -out by the particular individual. If he were in earnest I would think -he could do it in about 4 years. - -Representative FORD. That is an ordinary person living in the United -States? - -Mr. GREGORY. Living in the United States. - -Representative FORD. Who made---- - -Mr. GREGORY. Going to study Russian, say at the university, normal -load, maybe 4 hours a week, plus homework, it would take about 4 years. - -If he lived in the country---- - -Representative FORD. In the Soviet Union? - -Mr. GREGORY. In the Soviet Union, he probably could do it in 2 or 3 -years. - -Representative FORD. Did Oswald tell you when he first visited you that -he had learned to speak Russian, where? - -Mr. GREGORY. In the Soviet Union. - -Representative FORD. He never gave you any indication he had learned or -studied prior to going to the Soviet Union? - -Mr. GREGORY. No, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have about one or two more questions. - -Did you discuss at any time with Marina Oswald the conversation that -she had with Lee Oswald after the assassination? - -Mr. GREGORY. Would you mind to state that again? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Marina Oswald spoke with Lee after the assassination, when he was in -the jail. - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you about that? - -Mr. GREGORY. Well, I don't remember whether it was Marina or whether -it was Marguerite Oswald. I don't remember now; they did go to see him -in the jail in the city of Dallas, and it must have been Marguerite -because she was bragging what a wonderful son he is because he looked -at the little girl, June, she is 2 years old, and he said, "You have -got to buy her a new pair of shoes," I remember that. It must have been -Marguerite because she used that as an illustration of what a wonderful -boy he was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Other than that, you have no information as to what -transpired at that time, happened at that time? - -Mr. GREGORY. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would it be fair to say, Mr. Gregory, that it was through -Oswald's contact with you that he subsequently made the association -with and contact with the other members of the Russian community in -Dallas and Fort Worth? - -Mr. GREGORY. I think that would be a fair statement, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have no more questions. - -The CHAIRMAN. Congressman? - -Representative FORD. I have one more, Mr. Gregory. - -I believe Marina has testified when she first met Lee Harvey Oswald it -was approximately 17 months after he had arrived in the Soviet Union. -She testified, also, that she could not tell whether he was a native -born resident of the Soviet Union or a foreigner by the way he spoke. - -Mr. GREGORY. Yes. - -Representative FORD. Is that unusual? - -Mr. GREGORY. Well, frankly. I don't know. You see, Congressman, the -city of Minsk is what we call, they call it, not we call, they call it -in the White Russia Republic. You know they called this the Union of -Republics, you know, in the White Russian Republic, and Minsk, I guess, -is the capital of it. - -It is fairly close to Poland, and there are all sorts of people, Poles, -Lithuanians, probably Latvians, that lived in that part of the country, -and none of those people speak pure Russian. - -Now, whether she had reference, whether that had anything to do with -her statement---- - -Representative FORD. Her observations? - -Mr. GREGORY. Right; I don't know. - -Now, I thought that Lee Oswald spoke with a Polish accent, that is why -I asked him if he was of Polish descent. - -Representative FORD. But leaving---- - -Mr. GREGORY. But, otherwise, I would say it would be rather unusual, -rather unusual for a person who lived in the Soviet Union for 17 months -that he would speak so well that a native Russian would not be sure -whether he was born in that country or not. - -Representative FORD. That would be a very unusual kind of a person? - -Mr. GREGORY. It would be, yes. - -Representative FORD. Or a person who had unusual training? - -Mr. GREGORY. Right, or unusual ability or training, yes, that is right. - -Representative FORD. That is all, Mr. Chairman. - -The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Gregory. You have been very -helpful. - -(Whereupon, at 1 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -_Monday, March 16, 1964_ - -TESTIMONY OF COMDR. JAMES J. HUMES, COMDR. J. THORNTON BOSWELL, AND LT. -COL. PIERRE A. FINCK - -The President's Commission met at 2 p.m. on March 16, 1964, at 200 -Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. - -Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman -Cooper, Representative Gerald R. Ford, John J. McCloy, and Allen W. -Dulles, members. - -Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Francis W. H. Adams, -assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Arlen Specter, -assistant counsel; and Charles Murray, observer. - - -TESTIMONY OF COMDR. JAMES J. HUMES - -The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. - -Commander Humes, will you please step up. You know, Commander, what -we have met for today to take your testimony concerning the autopsy -and anything else you might know concerning the assassination of the -President. - -Would you raise your right hand, please? - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission -will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help -you God? - -Commander HUMES. I do. - -The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated? - -You may proceed. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Humes, will you state your full name for the record, -please? - -Commander HUMES. James Joseph Humes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is your profession or occupation, please? - -Commander HUMES. I am a physician and employed by the Medical -Department of the United States Navy. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your rank in the Navy? - -Commander HUMES. Commander, Medical Corps. United States Navy. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you receive your education, Commander Humes, -please. - -Commander HUMES. I had my undergraduate training at St. Joseph's -College at Villanova University in Philadelphia. I received my medical -degree in 1948 from the Jefferson Medical College of Philadelphia. - -I received my internship and my postgraduate training in my special -field of interest in Pathology in various Naval hospitals, and at the -Armed Forces Institute of Pathology at Walter Reed in Washington, D.C. - -Mr. SPECTER. What do your current duties involve? - -Commander HUMES. My current title is Director of Laboratories of the -Naval Medical School at Naval Medical Center at Bethesda. I am charged -with the responsibility of the overall supervision of all of the -laboratory operations in the Naval medical center, two broad areas, one -in the field of anatomic pathology which comprises examining surgical -specimens and postmortem examinations and then the rather large field -of clinical pathology which takes in examination of the blood and -various body fluids. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you been certified by the American Board of Pathology? - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; both in anatomic pathology and in clinical -pathology in 1955. - -Mr. SPECTER. What specific experience have you had, if any, with -respect to gunshot wounds? - -Commander HUMES. My type of practice, which fortunately has been in -peacetime endeavor to a great extent, has been more extensive in the -field of natural disease than violence. However, on several occasions -in various places where I have been employed, I have had to deal with -violent death, accidents, suicides, and so forth. Also I have had -training at the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, I have completed -a course in forensic pathology there as part of my training in the -overall field of pathology. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to participate in the autopsy of the -late John F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963? - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. SPECTER. What was your specific function in connection with that -autopsy? - -Commander HUMES. As the senior pathologist assigned to the Naval -Medical Center, I was called to the Center by my superiors and informed -that the President's body would be brought to our laboratories for an -examination, and I was charged with the responsibility of conducting -and supervising this examination; told to also call upon anyone whom I -wished as an assistant in this matter, that I deemed necessary to be -present. - -Mr. SPECTER. Who did assist you, if anyone, in the course of the -autopsy? - -Commander HUMES. My first assistant was Commander J. Thornton Boswell, -whose position is Chief of Pathology at the Naval Medical School, and -my other assistant was Lt. Col. Pierre Finck, who is in the wound -ballistics section of the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology. - -When I ascertained the nature of the President's wounds, having had -the facilities of the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology offered to -me by General Blumberg, the commanding officer of that institution, I -felt it advisable and would be of help to me to have the services of an -expert in the field of wound ballistics and for that reason I requested -Colonel Finck to appear. - -Mr. SPECTER. Tell us who else in a general way was present at the time -the autopsy was conducted in addition to you three doctors, please? - -Commander HUMES. This, I must preface by saying it will be somewhat -incomplete. My particular interest was on the examination of the -President and not of the security measures of the other people who were -present. - -However, the Surgeon General of the Navy was present at one time or -another. Admiral Galloway, the Commanding Officer of the National Naval -Medical Center; my own commanding officer, Captain John H. Stover of -the Naval Medical School, Dr. John Ebersole, one of the radiologists -assigned to the Naval Hospital, Bethesda, who assisted with X-ray -examinations which were made. These are the chief names, sir; that I -can recall. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time did the autopsy start approximately? - -Commander HUMES. The president's body was received at 25 minutes before -8, and the autopsy began at approximately 8 p.m. on that evening. -You must include the fact that certain X-rays and other examinations -were made before the actual beginning of the routine type autopsy -examination. - -Mr. SPECTER. Precisely what X-rays or photographs were taken before the -dissection started? - -Commander HUMES. Some of these X-rays were taken before and some during -the examination, which also maintains for the photographs, which were -made as the need became apparent to make such. - -However, before the postmortem examination was begun, anterior, -posterior and lateral X-rays of the head, and of the torso were made, -and identification type photographs, I recall having been made of the -full face of the late President. A photograph showing the massive -head wound with the large defect that was associated with it. To my -recollection all of these were made before the proceedings began. - -Several others, approximately 15 to 20 in number, were made in total -before we finished the proceedings. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now were those X-rays or photographs or both when you -referred to the total number? - -Commander HUMES. By the number I would say they are in number 15 to 20. -There probably was ten or 12 X-ray films exposed in addition. - -Mr. SPECTER. What time did this autopsy end? - -Commander HUMES. At approximately 11 p.m. - -Mr. SPECTER. What wounds did you observe on the late President, if any? - -Commander HUMES. The wounds which we observed on the President -were--excuse me, at this point might I use the charts which I have -prepared? - -Would that be appropriate? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes; would you like to start with the neck wound? - -Commander HUMES. All right, sir. - -I might preface my remarks by stating that the President's body was -received in our morgue in a closed casket. We opened the casket, Dr. -Boswell and I, and the President's body was unclothed in the casket, -was wrapped in a sheet labeled by the Parkland Hospital, but he was -unclothed once the sheet was removed from his body so we do not have at -that time any clothing. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Humes, before you identify what that represents let me -place Commission Exhibit No. 385 on it so it may be identified. - -(The drawing was marked Commission Exhibit No. 385 for identification.) - -Commander HUMES. When appraised of the necessity for our appearance -before this Commission, we did not know whether or not the photographs -which we had made would be available to the Commission. So to assist in -making our testimony more understandable to the Commission members, we -decided to have made drawings, schematic drawings, of the situation as -we saw it, as we recorded it and as we recall it. These drawings were -made under my supervision and that of Dr. Boswell by Mr. Rydberg, whose -initials are H. A. He is a hospital corpsman, second class, and a -medical illustrator in our command at Naval Medical School. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you provide him with the basic information from which -these drawings were made? - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Distances, that sort of thing? - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. We had made certain physical measurements of -the wounds, and of their position on the body of the late President, -and we provided these and supervised directly Mr. Rydberg in making -these drawings. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you checked the drawings subsequent to their -preparation to verify their accuracy? - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And proportion? - -Commander HUMES. I must state these drawings are in part schematic. -The artist had but a brief period of some 2 days to prepare these. -He had no photographs from which to work, and had to work under our -description, verbal description, of what we had observed. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would it be helpful to the artist, in redefining the -drawings if that should become necessary, to have available to him the -photographs or X-rays of the President? - -Commander HUMES. If it were necessary to have them absolutely true to -scale. I think it would be virtually impossible for him to do this -without the photographs. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is the reason for the necessity for having the -photographs? - -Commander HUMES. I think that it is most difficult to transmit into -physical measurements the--by word the--exact situation as it was seen -to the naked eye. The photographs were--there is no problem of scale -there because the wounds, if they are changed in size or changed in -size and proportion to the structures of the body and so forth, when -we attempt to give a description of these findings, it is the bony -prominences, I cannot, which we used as points of references, I cannot, -transmit completely to the illustrator where they were situated. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is the taking of photographs and X-rays routine or is this -something out of the ordinary? - -Commander HUMES. No, sir; this is quite routine in cases of this sort -of violent death in our training. In the field of forensic pathology -we have found that the photographs and X-rays are of most value, the -X-rays particularly in finding missiles which have a way of going -in different directions sometimes, and particularly as documentary -evidence these are considered invaluable in the field of forensic -pathology. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you now proceed to show us what Commission Exhibit -385 depicts, please? - -Commander HUMES. Actually, I think, sir, at this time the view from the -posterior aspect would also be of value to the Commission. - -This is---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Doctor, I hand you the second exhibit which is marked -Commission Exhibit No. 386. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 386 was marked for identification.) - -Commander HUMES. I believe at this point I would like to have, if you -have my gross autopsy description because I will give the dimensions of -these wounds at this time. - -Mr. SPECTER. We will use the Commission Exhibit No. 387 and I will ask -you first of all, for the record, to identify what this document is, -Dr. Humes. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 387 for -identification.) - -Commander HUMES. This document is a copy of the gross autopsy report -which was prepared by myself, Dr. Boswell, and Dr. Finck, and completed -within approximately 48 hours after the assassination of the President. - -Mr. SPECTER. Does that report bear your signature at its end? - -Commander HUMES. It bears my signature on the first or covering page as -well as on my last page, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you now proceed to tell us what you observed with -respect to the wound which is marked as appearing in the upper back or -lower neck? - -Mr. McCLOY. Have you identified that? - -Mr. SPECTER. The one on the side is 385 and the one of the rear view is -386. And that one is 387. For purposes of our record, if you will, put -them in as 385 and 386 for our printed record. You might want to put -them in chalk above them so you will see the one on the left is 385 and -on the right is 386. - -Commander HUMES. These exhibits again are schematic representations -of what we observed at the time of examining the body of the late -President. - -Exhibit 385 shows in the low neck an oval wound which--excuse me, I -wish to get the measurements correct. This wound was situated just -above the upper border of the scapula, and measured 7 by 4 millimeters, -with its long axis roughly parallel to the long axis of vertical column. - -We saw--I would rather not discuss the situation of the anterior neck -at this time or would you prefer it? - -Mr. SPECTER. How would you prefer to do it, Dr. Humes? - -Commander HUMES. I would prefer to discuss the wounds, two wounds, we -saw posteriorly and the wound, other wound, of the skull before going -to that. - -Mr. SPECTER. That is fine, Dr. Humes, do it any way you find -convenient. I will give you the other drawing and you can do them both -together. Let the third drawing be marked as Commission Exhibit No. 388. - -(The drawing referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 388 for -identification.) - -Commander HUMES. The wound in the low neck of which I had previously -begun to speak is now posteriorly--is now depicted in 385, in 386 and -in 388. - -The second wound was found in the right posterior portion of the scalp. -This wound was situated approximately 2.5 centimeters to the right, -and slightly above the external occipital protuberance which is a bony -prominence situated in the posterior portion of everyone's skull. This -wound was then 2-1/2 centimeters to the right and slightly above that -point. - -The third obvious wound at the time of the examination was a huge -defect over the right side of the skull. This defect involved both -the scalp and the underlying skull, and from the brain substance was -protruding. - -This wound measured approximately 13 centimeters in greatest diameter. -It was difficult to measure accurately because radiating at various -points from the large defect were multiple crisscrossing fractures of -the skull which extended in several directions. - -I have noted in my report that a detailed description of the lines of -these fractures and of the types of fragments that were thus made were -very difficult of verbal description, and it was precisely for this -reason that the photographs were made so one might appreciate more -clearly how much damage had been done to the skull. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were the photographs made available then, Dr. Humes, when -Exhibit 388 was prepared? - -Commander HUMES. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. - -Commander HUMES. The photographs, to go back a moment, the photographs -and the X-rays were exposed in the morgue of the Naval Medical Center -on this night, and they were not developed, neither the X-rays or the -photographs. They were submitted to the, and here, if I make a mistake -I am not certain, to either the Federal Bureau of Investigation or to -the Secret Service, I am not sure of those. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you submit those yourself immediately after they were -taken, Dr. Humes? - -Commander HUMES. Again, one of the senior people present, I believe -my own Commanding Officer, Captain Stover, took care of turning this -material over to these authorities, and receiving a receipt for this -information, for this material. It was--I supervised the positioning of -the body for various of these examinations but as far as beyond that, I -did not consider that my responsibility. - -These, then, were the three wounds which were quite obvious at the time -of the examination. - -I could expand further on the general appearances of these wounds or I -could turn to the anterior portion of the body and describe various -other wounds which were present. - -Mr. SPECTER. You were focusing on 388 before I last asked a question, -Dr. Humes. Why don't you describe in general terms the nature of the -wound which was present at the top of the head of the late President? - -Commander HUMES. With your permission, sir, and Mr. Chief Justice, I -think I might describe those two wounds together, and describe the -defects in the scalp and in the skull in each instance. - -Mr. SPECTER. That would be fine. - -Commander HUMES. Would that be appropriate? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. - -Commander HUMES. Turning now to Commission Exhibit 388, where we have -depicted in the posterior right portion of the skull a wound which we -have labeled "in" or a wound of entrance and a large roughly 13 cm. -diameter defect in the right lateral vertex of the skull. I would go -into some further detail in describing these wounds. - -The scalp, I mentioned previously, there was a defect in the scalp and -some scalp tissue was not available. However, the scalp was intact -completely past this defect. In other words, this wound in the right -posterior region was in a portion of scalp which had remained intact. - -So, we could see that it was the measurement which I gave before, I -believe 15 by 6 millimeters. - -When one reflected the scalp away from the skull in this region, there -was a corresponding defect through both tables of the skull in this -area. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe what you mean by both tables, Dr. Humes? - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. - -The skull is composed of two layers of bone. We will put the scalp in -in dotted lines. - -The two solid lines will represent the two layers of the skull bone, -and in between these two layers is loose somewhat irregular bone. - -When we reflected the scalp, there was a through and through defect -corresponding with the wound in the scalp. - -This wound had to us the characteristics of a wound of entrance for the -following reason: The defect in the outer table was oval in outline, -quite similar to the defect in the skin. - -Mr. SPECTER. You are referring there, Doctor, to the wound on the lower -part of the neck? - -Commander HUMES. No, sir; I am speaking here of the wound in the -occiput. - -The wound on the inner table, however, was larger and had what in -the field of wound ballistics is described as a shelving or a coning -effect. To make an analogy to which the members of the Commission are -probably most familiar, when a missile strikes a pane of glass, a -typical example, a B-B fired by a child's air rifle, when this strikes -a pane of glass there will be a small, usually round to oval defect on -the side of the glass from whence the missile came and a belled-out or -coned-out surface on the opposite side of the glass from whence the -missile came. - -(At this point, Mr. Dulles entered the hearing room.) - -Commander HUMES. Experience has shown and my associates and Colonel -Finck, in particular, whose special field of interest is wound -ballistics can give additional testimony about this scientifically -observed fact. - -This wound then had the characteristics of wound of entrance from this -direction through the two tables of the skull. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you say "this direction," will you specify that -direction in relationship to the skull? - -Commander HUMES. At that point I mean only from without the skull to -within. - -Mr. SPECTER. Fine, proceed. - -Commander HUMES. Having ascertained to our satisfaction and -incidentally photographs illustrating this phenomenon from both the -external surface of the skull and from the internal surface were -prepared, we concluded that the large defect to the upper right side of -the skull, in fact, would represent a wound of exit. - -A careful examination of the margins of the large bone defect at that -point, however, failed to disclose a portion of the skull bearing again -a wound of--a point of impact on the skull of this fragment of the -missile, remembering, of course, that this area was devoid of any scalp -or skull at this present time. We did not have the bone. - -In further evaluating this head wound, I will refer back to the X-rays -which we had previously prepared. These had disclosed to us multiple -minute fragments of radio opaque material traversing a line from -the wound in the occiput to just above the right eye, with a rather -sizable fragment visible by X-ray just above the right eye. These tiny -fragments that were seen dispersed through the substance of the brain -in between were, in fact, just that extremely minute, less than 1 mm. -in size for the most part. - -(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Humes, this would be a good juncture to produce two -photographs. - -May it please the Commission, Mr. Chief Justice Warren, I have -identified as Commission Exhibits 389 and 390 which will at a later -time be identified as being two frames from the motion picture camera -operated by one Abraham Zapruder, being the amateur photographer who -was on the scene, which I think would assist in evaluating the angle of -the President's head corresponding to that exhibit designated as 388. - -I will hand those to you, Dr. Humes, and ask you if you would state for -the record the relative position of the President's head in 389 which -is a frame about one-sixteenth of a second before the point of impact -shown in Exhibit 390. - -(The frames referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 389 and -390 for identification.) - -Commander HUMES. It will be noted in Exhibit 389 that the President's -head is bent considerably forward and perhaps somewhat to the left in -this frame of the photograph 389. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is that in approximately the same position as the angle of -the head depicted in Commission Exhibit No. 388? - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; it is. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, at this time I would like to move for -admission in evidence of Exhibits 385 through 390. - -The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted under those numbers. - -(Commission Exhibits Nos. 385, 386, 387, 388, 389, and 390, previously -marked for identification, were received in evidence.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you proceed now, Dr. Humes, to continue in your -description of the head wound? - -Commander HUMES. Head wound--a careful inspection of this large defect -in the scalp and skull was made seeking for fragments of missile before -any actual detection was begun. The brain was greatly lacerated and -torn, and in this area of the large defect we did not encounter any of -these minute particles. - -I might say at this time that the X-ray pictures which were made would -have a tendency to magnify these minute fragments somewhat in size and -we were not too surprised in not being able to find the tiny fragments -depicted in the X-ray. - -Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how many fragments were observed, Dr. Humes, -on the X-ray? - -Commander HUMES. I would have to refer to them again, but I would say -between 30 or 40 tiny dust-like particle fragments of radio opaque -material, with the exception of this one I previously mentioned which -was seen to be above and very slightly behind the right orbit. - -Mr. DULLES. Were these all fragments that were injected into the skull -by the bullet? - -Commander HUMES. Our interpretation is, sir, that the missile struck -the right occipital region, penetrated through the two tables of the -skull, making the characteristic coning on the inner table which I have -previously referred to. That one portion of the missile and judging by -the size of the defect thus produced, the major portion of the missile, -made its exit through this large defect. - -A second portion of the missile or multiple second portions were -deflected, and traversed a distance as enumerated by this interrupted -line, with the major portion of that fragment coming to lodge in the -position indicated. - -Perhaps some of these minor fragments were dislodged from the major one -as it traversed this course. - -To better examine the situation with regard to the skull, at this time, -Dr. Boswell and I extended the lacerations of the scalp which were -at the margins of this wound, down in the direction of both of the -President's ears. At that point, we had even a better appreciation of -the extensive damage which had been done to the skull by this injury. - -We had to do virtually no work with a saw to remove these portions of -the skull, they came apart in our hands very easily, and we attempted -to further examine the brain, and seek specifically this fragment which -was the one we felt to be of a size which would permit us to recover it. - -Mr. SPECTER. When you refer to this fragment, and you are pointing -there, are you referring to the fragment depicted right above the -President's right eye? - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; above and somewhat behind the President's -eye. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you proceed, then, to tell us what you did then? - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. We dissected carefully in this region and in -fact located this small fragment, which was in a defect in the brain -tissue in just precisely this location. - -Mr. SPECTER. How large was that fragment, Dr. Humes? - -Commander HUMES. I refer to my notes for the measurements of that -fragment. - -I find in going back to my report, sir, that we found, in fact, two -small fragments in this approximate location. The larger of these -measured 7 by 2 mm., the smaller 3 by 1 mm. - -To make my presentation of this wound of the skull more logical to the -Commission, I would like to go forward in time that evening to at a -later hour. I apologize--time and what happened exactly at what moment -escapes me at this time. - -I mentioned previously that there was a large bony defect. Some time -later on that evening or very early the next morning while we were all -still engaged in continuing our examination, I was presented with three -portions of bone which had been brought to Washington from Dallas by -the agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. - -These were---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Might that have been by a Secret Service agent? - -Commander HUMES. It could be, sir; these things---- - -Mr. SPECTER. At any rate, someone presented these three pieces of bone -to you? - -Commander HUMES. Someone presented these three pieces of bone to me, I -do not recall specifically their statement as to where they had been -recovered. - -It seems to me they felt it had been recovered either in the street or -in the automobile, I don't recall specifically. - -We were most interested in these fragments of bone, and found that the -three pieces could be roughly put together to account for a portion of -this defect. - -Mr. SPECTER. How much remained unaccounted for, Dr. Humes? - -Commander HUMES. I would estimate that approximately one-quarter -of that defect was unaccounted for by adding these three fragments -together and seeing what was left. - -This is somewhat difficult, because as back to when we were actually -looking for the fragments of metal, as we moved the scalp about, -fragments of various sizes would fall to the table, and so forth, so it -was difficult to put that exact figure into words. - -However, the thing which we considered of importance about these three -fragments of bone was that at the margins of one of them which was -roughly pyramidal in shape, there was a portion of the circumference -of what we interpreted as a missile wound. We thus interpreted it this -because there was, the size was, sufficiently large for us, for it to -have the curve of the skull still evident. At the point of this defect, -and I will draw both tables of the bone in this defect, at the area -which we interpreted as the margin of a missile wound, there was a -shelving of the margin. - -This would, to us, mean that a missile had made this wound from within -the skull to the exterior. To confirm that this was a missile wound, -X-rays were made of that fragment of bone, which showed radio-opaque -material consistent and similar in character to the particles seen -within the skull to be deposited in the margins of this defect, in this -portion of the bone. - -Mr. SPECTER. Then what conclusion did you reach as to what caused that -hole reconstructed from the three portions of the late President's -scalp? - -Commander HUMES. We reached the conclusion a missile entered the -left--the right posterior inferior portion---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Doctor, perhaps it would be helpful if you would refer -to that as letter "A" and the exit as letter "B", so that the record -is clear on those two points and perhaps it will be helpful to your -description as well. - -And would you mark them as well, with a pencil? - -Commander HUMES. That is not entry for the second. - -Mr. SPECTER. Exit for the second? - -Commander HUMES. I will label 388 with the letter "A" to indicate our -opinion as to the wound of entrance into the skull. - -I will label as Point "B" the area of exit of a portion of the missile -that entered posteriorly. I say a portion because a small fragment was -seen in the position previously noted which was recovered. - -However, we concluded that a very significant portion, perhaps the -largest portion, made its exit and accounted for this very large defect -for the multiple fractures of the skull and for the loss of brain and -scalp tissue at this point. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe at this juncture the damage which was -inflicted upon the brain, please? - -Commander HUMES. May I refer at this point to the gross description of -the brain prepared separately? - -Mr. SPECTER. Certainly, Dr. Humes, if you prefer to do it in that order. - -Commander HUMES. I believe you have that. It is the second portion of -the report. - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir. I can make that available to you here. - -Commander HUMES. While that is being provided, when we reflected the -scalp away from the badly damaged skull, and removed some of these -loosened portions of skull bone, we were able to see this large defect -in the right cerebral hemisphere. It corresponded roughly in size with -the greatest diameter of the defect in the scalp measuring some 13 cm. - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record now show I am handing to you, Dr. Humes, an -exhibit marked Commission Exhibit 391, and will you identify what that -is, please, Doctor? - -Commander HUMES. Exhibit 391 is listed as a supplementary report on the -autopsy of the late President Kennedy, and was prepared some days after -the examination. - -This delay necessitated by, primarily, our desire to have the brain -better fixed with formaldehyde before we proceeded further with the -examination of the brain which is a standard means of approach to study -of the brain. - -The brain in its fresh state does not lend itself well to examination. - -From my notes of the examination, at the time of the post-mortem -examination, we noted that clearly visible in the large skull defect -and exuding from it was lacerated brain tissue which, on close -inspection proved to represent the major portion of the right cerebral -hemisphere. - -We also noted at this point that the flocculus cerebri was extensively -lacerated and that the superior sagittal sinus which is a venous blood -containing channel in the top of the meninges was also lacerated. - -To continue to answer your question with regard to the damage of the -brain, following the formal infixation, Dr. Boswell, Dr. Finck and I -convened to examine the brain in this state. - -We also prepared photographs of the brain from several aspects to -depict the extent of these injuries. - -We found that the right cerebral hemisphere was markedly disrupted. -There was a longitudinal laceration of the right hemisphere which was -parasagittal in position. By the saggital plane, as you may know, is a -plane in the midline which would divide the brain into right and left -halves. - -This laceration was parasagittal. It was situated approximately 2.5 cm. -to the right of the midline, and extended from the tip of occipital -lobe, which is the posterior portion of the brain, to the tip of the -frontal lobe which is the most anterior portion of the brain, and it -extended from the top down to the substance of the brain a distance of -approximately 5 or 6 cm. - -The base of the laceration was situated approximately 4.5 cm. below the -vertex in the white matter. By the vertex we mean--the highest point on -the skull is referred to as the vertex. - -The area in which the greatest loss of brain substance was particularly -in the parietal lobe, which is the major portion of the right cerebral -hemisphere. - -The margins of this laceration at all points were jagged and irregular, -with additional lacerations extending in varying directions and for -varying distances from the main laceration. - -In addition, there was a laceration of the corpus callosum which is a -body of fibers which connects the two hemispheres of the brain to each -other, which extended from the posterior to the anterior portion of -this structure, that is the corpus callosum. Exposed in this laceration -were portions of the ventricular system in which the spinal fluid -normally is disposed within the brain. - -When viewed from above the left cerebral hemisphere was intact. There -was engorgement of blood vessels in the meninges covering the brain. We -note that the gyri and sulci, which are the convolutions of the brain -over the left hemisphere were of normal size and distribution. - -Those on the right were too fragmented and distorted for satisfactory -description. - -When the brain was turned over and viewed from its basular or inferior -aspect, there was found a longitudinal laceration of the mid-brain -through the floor of the third ventricle, just behind the optic chiasma -and the mammillary bodies. - -This laceration partially communicates with an oblique 1.5 cm. tear -through the left cerebral peduncle. This is a portion of the brain -which connects the higher centers of the brain with the spinal cord -which is more concerned with reflex actions. - -There were irregular superficial lacerations over the basular or -inferior aspects of the left temporal and frontal lobes. We interpret -that these later contusions were brought about when the disruptive -force of the injury pushed that portion of the brain against the -relative intact skull. - -This has been described as contre-coup injury in that location. - -This, then, I believe, Mr. Specter, are the major points with regard to -the President's head wound. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an opinion, Dr. Humes, as to whether there -were dumdum bullets used specifically on this wound which struck point -"A" of the head, on 388? - -Commander HUMES. I believe these were not dumdum bullets, Mr. Specter. -A dumdum bullet is a term that has been used to describe various -missiles which have a common characteristic of fragmenting extensively -upon striking. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you characterize the resultant effect on this bullet -as not extensive fragmenting? - -Commander HUMES. Yes. Had this wound on point "A" on Exhibit 388 been -inflicted by a dumdum bullet, I would anticipate that it would not have -anything near the regular contour and outline which it had. I also -would anticipate that the skull would have been much more extensively -disrupted, and not have, as was evident in this case, a defect which -quite closely corresponded to the overlying skin defect because that -type of a missile would fragment on contact and be much more disruptive -at this point. - -Mr. SPECTER. At this point would you state for the record the size and -approximate dimension of the major wound on the top of the head which -you have marked wound "B"? - -Commander HUMES. This was so large, that localization of it in a -descriptive way is somewhat difficult. - -However, we have mentioned that its major--its greatest dimension -was approximately 13 cm. The reason it was difficult to measure is -that various fracture lines extend out from it in a quite irregular -fashion, but it was approximately 13 cm. - -Mr. McCLOY. This red that is marked on 388 on the base of the skull, is -that seepage or what? - -Commander HUMES. No, sir; that is to depict the musculature at the base -of the neck. - -Mr. McCLOY. I see. - -Commander HUMES. That is not taken to depict the blood, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. On the reconstruction of the three portions of the scalp -which you described---- - -Commander HUMES. Skull, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Skull, which enabled you to reconstruct a point of exit -of the bullet, will you state at this point of the record that size of -opening or exit path of the bullet? - -Commander HUMES. As I mentioned previously, at one angle of this -largest pyramidal shaped fragments of bone which came as a separate -specimen, we had the portion of the perimeter of a roughly what we -would judge to have been a roughly circular wound of exit. Judging from -that portion of the perimeter which was available to us, we would have -judged the diameter of that wound to be between 2.5 and 3 cm. - -Mr. SPECTER. Doctor Humes, have you now described the major -characteristics and features of the wounds to the late President's head? - -Commander HUMES. I believe that I have, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. All right. Will you now turn your attention, please to the -wound which is noted on 385 and 386 being at the---- - -Mr. McCLOY. Before we leave that, could I ask a question? - -When you talk about dumdum bullets, do you include the ordinary type -of soft nose sporting bullets, maybe this is something that Colonel -Finck would be more expert on, but was that, was the bullet, could it -possibly have been a sporting type of hunting bullet that has a soft -nose but is still somewhat firm? - -Commander HUMES. From the characteristics of this wound, Mr. McCloy, I -would believe that it must have had a very firm head rather than a soft -head. - -Mr. McCLOY. Steel jacketed, would you say, copper jacketed bullet? - -Commander HUMES. I believe more likely a jacketed bullet because of the -regular outline which was present. - -Mr. McCLOY. All right. - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question? - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dulles. - -Mr. DULLES. Believing that we know the type of bullet that was usable -in this gun, would this be the type of wound that might result from -that kind of a bullet? - -Commander HUMES. I believe so, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. If my question is clear---- - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; it is. - -Mr. DULLES. We think we know what the bullet is, we may be wrong but we -think we know what it was, is this wound consistent with that type of -bullet? - -Commander HUMES. Quite consistent, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. There is no evidence of any keyholing of the bullet before -it hit, before the point of impact? - -Commander HUMES. I don't exactly follow your question. - -Mr. McCLOY. Was the bullet moving in a direct line or had it begun to -tumble? - -Commander HUMES. To tumble? - -That is a difficult question to answer. I have the opinion, however, -that it was more likely moving in a direct line. You will note that -the wound in the posterior portion of the occiput on Exhibit 388 -is somewhat longer than the other missile wound which we have not -yet discussed in the low neck. We believe that rather than due to a -tumbling effect, this is explainable on the fact that this missile -struck the skin and skull at a more tangential angle than did the other -missile, and, therefore, produced a more elongated defect, sir. - -Senator COOPER. May I ask a question there? Perhaps you have done -this, but if not, how would you explain the difference of the courses -of the fragments which you traced and described as, I think, being -discovered behind the right eye? - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. And the course of the fragment which was believed -caused the large defect? - -Commander HUMES. Caused the large defect? - -Senator COOPER. How do you explain---- - -Commander HUMES. The discrepancy? - -Senator COOPER. The difference in the courses. - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. - -As this missile penetrated the scalp, it then came upon a very firm -substance, the hard skull, and I believe that this track depicted by -the dotted lines on Exhibit 388 was a portion of that missile which was -dislodged as it made its defect in the skull. And that--that another -portion, and, as I say, presumably, by the size of the defect, a more -major portion made its exit through the right lateral side of the skull. - -Mr. McCLOY. Is this piece of pyramidal bone that was brought in to you -subsequently as I understand it---- - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Was that part of the outer table or the inner table? - -Commander HUMES. It was both tables, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Both tables? - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; had it only been one it might have been -difficult to ascertain whether it was. - -Mr. McCLOY. Shelving or not? - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; in or out, but it encompassed both tables, -sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Is the angle of declination that you--one sees there from -in and out approximately the angle you think at which the bullet was -traveling at the time of impact and exit? - -Commander HUMES. That is our impression, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. So then the shot would have been fired from some point -above the head of the person hit? - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Humes, would you elaborate a bit on the differences in -the paths, specifically why the bullet went in one direction in part -and in part in the second direction, terminating with the fragment -right over the right eye? - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. - -I will make a drawing of the posterior portion of the skull showing -again this beveling which we observed at the inner table of the skull. - -Our impression is that as this projectile impinged upon the skull in -this fashion, a small portion of it was dislodged due to the energy -expended in that collision, if you will, and that it went off at an -angle, and left the track which is labeled 388, which is labeled on -Exhibit 388 from "A", point "A" to the point where the fragment was -found behind the eye. - -Why a fragment takes any particular direction like that is something -which is difficult of scientific explanation. Those of us who have seen -missiles strike bones, be it the skull or a bone in the extremity, -have long since learned that portions of these missiles may go off in -various directions and the precise physical laws governing them are not -clearly understood. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would the angle be accentuated in any way if you were -to assume the President was in a moving automobile going in a slight -downhill direction? - -Commander HUMES. There are many variables under these circumstances. -The most--the crucial point, I believe, to be the relative position of -the President's head in relation to the flight of the missile. - -Now, this would be influenced by how far his head was bent, by the -situation with regard to the level of the seat in the vehicle, off of -the horizontal, and so forth. - -Mr. SPECTER. How about a decline in the path of the road itself? - -Commander HUMES. I think that that would have a tendency to accentuate -this angle, yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, I would like to move for the admission -in evidence now of Exhibit 391, which is the exhibit on the brain -report. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission -Exhibit No. 391 was received in evidence.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Humes, would you now move over to the wound which -appears on the lower part of the neck and upper part of the back? - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one more question before we get to that, I am -sorry. - -Mr. SPECTER. Certainly. - -Mr. DULLES. Could one say as to what portion of the bullet was found in -all these fragments, I mean arrive at an estimate, was it a tenth of -the bullet, was it, how much was it, assuming the type of bullet that -we believe was used in this particular rifle. - -Commander HUMES. Sir, I have not had the opportunity to personally -examine the type of bullet which is believed to have been represented -by this injury. - -However, I would estimate--if I understand you correctly the total -amount that was present in the President's skull and brain? - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. - -Commander HUMES. Including the fragment? - -Mr. DULLES. Including all the fragments. - -Commander HUMES. Including all these minute particles. I would say -there was something less than one-tenth of the total volume of the -missile. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Humes, do you make that calculation on the assumption -that the bullets used here were 6.5 mm. Mannlicher-Carcano rifle bullet -weighing 158.6 grams? - -Commander HUMES. Yes, I do; sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Had I brought that particular fact to your attention prior -to the time you started testifying here today? - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. One point I intended to make clear these -fragments which I recovered from this position were turned over to the -Secret Service. - -I presume that they have made physical measurements including the -weight of them, and could give a much more intelligent estimate of -the proportion than I. I would say, however, that we did not deliver -these minute fragments because they were so small as to be essentially -unrecoverable. - -So, obviously they were of a very small portion of the major missile. - -Mr. DULLES. These minute fragments were part of the bullet, emanations -from the bullet? - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. They were not from the head? - -Commander HUMES. No, sir, they were small, dust, of the size of dust -particles, however. - -Mr. DULLES. Is the posture of the head of that figure there, the -inclination of it, roughly the inclination that you think the -President's head had at the time from the other photographs? - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. From the photographs and based on the -physical examination of this wound, yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. That is all I have. - -Mr. McCLOY. Perhaps this was something that Colonel Finck could testify -to exactly, but, he would be quite competent. Is there anything to -indicate that this was, might have been a larger than a 6.5 or smaller -than a 6.5? - -Commander HUMES. The size of the defect in the scalp, caused by a -projectile could vary from missile to missile because of elastic recoil -and so forth of the tissues. - -However, the size of the defect in the underlying bone is certainly not -likely to get smaller than that of the missile which perforated it, and -in this case, the smallest diameter of this was approximately 6 to 7 -mm., so I would feel that that would be the absolute upper limit of the -size of this missile, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Seven would be the absolute upper limit? - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; and, of course, just a little tilt could -make it a little larger, you see. - -Mr. DULLES. I have one other question, if I may. - -Is the incidence of clean entry as indicated there, and then great -fragmentation on exit, is that a normal consequence of this type of -wound? - -Commander HUMES. Sir, we feel that there are two potential explanations -for this. - -One, having traversed the skull in entrance in the occiput as depicted -on 388, the missile begins to tumble, and in that fashion it presents -a greater proportion of its surface to the brain substance and to the -skull as it makes its egress. - -The other and somewhat more difficult to measure and perhaps Colonel -Finck will be able to testify in greater detail on this, is that a high -velocity missile has tremendous kinetic energy, and this energy is -expanded against the structures which it strikes, and so that much of -this defect could be of the nature of blast, as this kinetic energy is -dissipated by traversing the skull. - -Is that the sense of the question, sir? - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. - -Senator COOPER. I will ask a question, and perhaps this isn't in your -field. - -But assuming that the shot which struck President Kennedy at point A -was fired by a gun from the window of the Texas School Book Depository, -and which has been testified to, and assuming that you could locate the -position of the President at the time he was struck by a bullet, you -could then, could you not, establish the degree of the missile? - -Commander HUMES. The degree of angle? - -Senator COOPER. The angle, yes, the degree of angle of the missile from -the building. - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; there is one difficulty, and that is -the defect of exit was so broad that one has to rely more on the -inclination of the entrance than they do connecting in this instance -entrance and exit because so much of the skull was carried away in this -fashion. - -Senator COOPER. That was my second question. - -My first question was would it be possible physically to establish the -degree of angle of the trajectory of the bullet? - -Commander HUMES. Within limited accuracy, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Within limited accuracy. - -That being true then my second question was whether the point of entry -of the bullet, point A, and the, what you call the exit---- - -Commander HUMES. Exit. - -Senator COOPER. Did you establish them so exactly that they could be -related to the degree of angle of the trajectory of the bullet? - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; to our satisfaction we did ascertain that -fact. - -Mr. DULLES. Just one other question. - -Am I correct in assuming from what you have said that this wound is -entirely inconsistent with a wound that might have been administered if -the shot were fired from in front or the side of the President: it had -to be fired from behind the President? - -Commander HUMES. Scientifically, sir, it is impossible for it to have -been fired from other than behind. Or to have exited from other than -behind. - -Mr. McCLOY. This is so obvious that I rather hesitate to ask it. There -is no question in your mind that it was a lethal bullet? - -Commander HUMES. The President, sir, could not possibly have survived -the effect of that injury no matter what would have been done for him. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Specter. - -Mr. SPECTER. What conclusions did you reach then as to the trajectory -or point of origin of the bullet, Dr. Humes, based on 388? - -Commander HUMES. We reached the conclusion that this missile was fired -toward the President from a point above and behind him, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, on one detail on your report, Dr. Humes, on page -4, on the third line down, you note that there is a lacerated wound -measuring 15 by 6 mm. which on the smaller size is, of course, less -than 6.5 mm.? - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. What would be the explanation for that variation? - -Commander HUMES. This is in the scalp, sir, and I believe that this -is explainable on the elastic recoil of the tissues of the skin, -sir. It is not infrequent in missile wounds of this type that the -measured wound is slightly smaller than the caliber of the missile that -traversed it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you proceed, now then to the other major wound of -entry which you have already noted and described? - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Its point of origin, where it hit the President. - -Commander HUMES. I--our previously submitted report, which is -Commission No. 387, identified a wound in the low posterior neck of the -President. - -The size of this wound was 4 by 7 mm., with the long axis being in -accordance with the long axis of the body, 44 mm. wide, in other words, -7 mm. long. - -We attempted to locate such wounds in soft tissue by making reference -to bony structures which do not move and are, therefore, good reference -points for this type of investigation. - -We then ascertained, we chose the two bony points of reference--we -chose to locate this wound, where the mastoid process, which is just -behind the ear, the top of the mastoid process, and the acromion which -is the tip of the shoulder joint. We ascertained physical measurement -at the time of autopsy that this wound was 14 cm. from the tip of the -mastoid process and 14 cm. from the acromion was its central point-- - -Mr. SPECTER. That is the right acromion? - -Commander HUMES. The tip of the right acromion, yes, sir, and that is -why we have depicted it in figure 385 in this location. - -This wound appeared physically quite similar to the wound which we -have described before in 388 "A," with the exception that its long -axis was shorter than the long axis of the wound described above. -When the tissues beneath this wound were inspected, there was a -defect corresponding with the skin defect in the fascia overlying the -musculature of the low neck and upper back. - -I mentioned previously that X-rays were made of the entire body of -the late President. Of course, and here I must say that as I describe -something to you, I might have done it before or after in the -description but for the sake of understanding, we examined carefully -the bony structures in this vicinity as well as the X-rays, to see -if there was any evidence of fracture or of deposition of metallic -fragments in the depths of this wound, and we saw no such evidence, -that is no fracture of the bones of the shoulder girdle, or of the -vertical column, and no metallic fragments were detectable by X-ray -examination. - -Attempts to probe in the vicinity of this wound were unsuccessful -without fear of making a false passage. - -Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by that, Doctor? - -Commander HUMES. Well, the defect in the fascia was quite similar, -which is the first firm tissue over the muscle beneath the skin, was -quite similar to this. We were unable, however, to take probes and have -them satisfactorily fall through any definite path at this point. - -Now, to explain the situation in the President's neck, I think it will -be necessary for me to refer back to Exhibit 385, I believe the number -is correct. - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes; please do, that is 385. - -Commander HUMES. Now, as the President's body was viewed from -anteriorly in the autopsy room, and saying nothing for the moment about -the missile, there was a recent surgical defect in the low anterior -neck, which measured some 7 or 8 cm. in length or let's say a recent -wound was present in this area. - -This wound was through the skin, through the subcutaneous tissues and -into the larynx. Or rather into the trachea of the President. - -Mr. SPECTER. To digress chronologically---- - -Commander HUMES. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to discuss that wound on the front -side of the President with Dr. Malcolm Perry of Parkland Hospital in -Dallas? - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; I did. I had the impression from seeing -the wound that it represented a surgical tracheotomy wound, a wound -frequently made by surgeons when people are in respiratory distress to -give them a free airway. - -To ascertain that point, I called on the telephone Dr. Malcolm Perry -and discussed with him the situation of the President's neck when he -first examined the President, and asked him had he in fact done a -tracheotomy which was somewhat redundant because I was somewhat certain -he had. - -He said, yes; he had done a tracheotomy and that as the point to -perform his tracheotomy he used a wound which he had interpreted as a -missile wound in the low neck, as the point through which to make the -tracheotomy incision. - -Mr. SPECTER. When did you have that conversation with him, Dr. Humes? - -Commander HUMES. I had that conversation early on Saturday morning, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. On Saturday morning, November 23d? - -Commander HUMES. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And have you had occasion since to examine the report of -Parkland Hospital which I made available to you? - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; I have. - -Mr. SPECTER. May it please the Commission, I would like to note this as -Commission Exhibit No. 392, and subject to later technical proof, to -have it admitted into evidence at this time for the purpose of having -the doctor comment about it. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be so marked. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 392, for -identification.) - -Mr. SPECTER. What did your examination of the Parkland Hospital -records disclose with respect to this wound on the front side of the -President's body? - -Commander HUMES. The examination of this record from Parkland Hospital -revealed that Doctor Perry had observed this wound as had other -physicians in attendance upon the President, and actually before a -tracheotomy was performed surgically, an endotracheal tube was placed -through the President's mouth and down his larynx and into his trachea -which is the first step in giving satisfactory airway to a person -injured in such fashion and unconscious. - -The President was unconscious and it is most difficult to pass such a -tube when the person is unconscious. - -The person who performed that procedure, that is instilled the -endotracheal tube noted that there was a wound of the trachea below the -larynx, which corresponded in essence with the wound of the skin which -they had observed from the exterior. - -Mr. SPECTER. How is that wound described, while you are mentioning the -wound? - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. I think you will find that on the first page of the -summary sheet, Dr. Humes. - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. Thank you. - -This report was written by doctor--or of the activities of Dr. James -Carrico, Doctor Carrico in inserting the endotracheal tube noted a -ragged wound of trachea immediately below the larynx. - -The report, as I recall it, and I have not studied it in minute detail, -would indicate to me that Doctor Perry realizing from Doctor Carrico's -observation that there was a wound of the trachea would quite logically -use the wound which he had observed as a point to enter the trachea -since the trachea was almost damaged, that would be a logical place in -which to put his incision. - -In speaking of that wound in the neck, Doctor Perry told me that before -he enlarged it to make the tracheotomy wound it was a "few millimeters -in diameter." - -Of course by the time we saw it, as my associates and as you have -heard, it was considerably larger and no longer at all obvious as a -missile wound. - -The report states, and Doctor Perry told me in telephone conversation -that there was bubbling of air and blood in the vicinity of this wound -when he made the tracheotomy. This caused him to believe that perhaps -there had been a violation of one of the--one or other of the pleural -cavities by a missile. He, therefore, asked one of his associates, and -the record is to me somewhat confused as to which of his associates, he -asked one of his associates to put in a chest tube. This is a maneuver -which is, was quite logical under the circumstances, and which would, -if a tube that were placed through all layers of the wall of the chest, -and the chest cavity had been violated one could remove air that had -gotten in there and greatly assist respiration. - -So when we examined the President in addition to the large wound which -we found in conversation with Doctor Perry was the tracheotomy wound, -there were two smaller wounds on the upper anterior chest. - -Mr. DULLES. These are apparently exit wounds? - -Commander HUMES. Sir, these were knife wounds, these were incised -wounds on either side of the chest, and I will give them in somewhat -greater detail. - -These wounds were bilateral, they were situated on the anterior chest -wall in the nipple line, and each were 2 cm. long in the transverse -axis. The one on the right was situated 11 cm. above the nipple--the -one on the left was situated 11 cm. on the nipple, and the one on the -right was 8 cm. above the nipple. Their intention was to incise through -the President's chest to place tubes into his chest. - -We examined those wounds very carefully, and found that they, however, -did not enter the chest cavity. They only went through the skin. - -I presume that as they were performing that procedure it was obvious -that the President had died, and they didn't pursue this. - -To complete the examination of the area of the neck and the chest, I -will do that together, we made the customary incision which we use in -a routine postmortem examination which is a Y-shaped incision from the -shoulders over the lower portion of the breastbone and over to the -opposite shoulder and reflected the skin and tissues from the anterior -portion of the chest. - -We examined in the region of this incised surgical wound which was -the tracheotomy wound and we saw that there was some bruising of the -muscles of the neck in the depths of this wound as well as laceration -or defect in the trachea. - -At this point, of course, I am unable to say how much of the defect in -the trachea was made by the knife of the surgeon, and how much of the -defect was made by the missile wound. That would have to be ascertained -from the surgeon who actually did the tracheotomy. - -There was, however, some ecchymosis or contusion, of the muscles of the -right anterior neck inferiorly, without, however, any disruption of the -muscles or any significant tearing of the muscles. - -The muscles in this area of the body run roughly, as you see as he -depicted them here. We have removed some of them for a point I will -make in a moment, but it is our opinion that the missile traversed -the neck and slid between these muscles and other vital structures -with a course in the neck such as the carotid artery, the jugular vein -and other structures because there was no massive hemorrhage or other -massive injury in this portion of the neck. - -In attempting to relate findings within the President's body to this -wound which we had observed low in his neck, we then opened his chest -cavity, and we very carefully examined the lining of his chest cavity -and both of his lungs. We found that there was, in fact, no defect in -the pleural lining of the President's chest. - -It was completely intact. - -However, over the apex of the right pleural cavity, and the pleura now -has two layers. It has a parietal or a layer which lines the chest -cavity and it has a visceral layer which is intimately in association -with the lung. - -As depicted in figure 385, in the apex of the right pleural cavity -there was a bruise or contusion or ecchmymosis of the parietal pleura -as well as a bruise of the upper portion, the most apical portion of -the right lung. - -It, therefore, was our opinion that the missile while not penetrating -physically the pleural cavity, as it passed that point bruised either -the missile itself, or the force of its passage through the tissues, -bruised both the parietal and the visceral pleura. - -The area of discoloration on the apical portion of the right upper lung -measured five centimeters in greatest diameter, and was wedge shaped in -configuration, with its base toward the top of the chest and its apex -down towards the substance of the lung. - -Once again Kodachrome photographs were made of this area in the -interior of the President's chest. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you mark the point on Exhibit 385, the one on the -rear of the President as point "C" and the one on the front of the -President as point "D" so we can discuss those, Dr. Humes? - -Now, what conclusion did you reach, if any, as to whether point "C" was -the point of entry or exit? - -Commander HUMES. We reached the conclusion that point "C" was a point -of entry. - -Mr. SPECTER. What characteristics of that wound led you to that -conclusion? - -Commander HUMES. The characteristics here were basically similar to -the characteristics above, lacking one very valuable clue or piece of -evidence rather than clue, because it is more truly a piece of evidence -in the skull. The skull as I mentioned before had the bone with the -characteristic defect made as a missile traverses bone. - -This missile, to the best of our ability to ascertain, struck no bone -protuberances, no bony prominences, no bones as it traversed the -President's body. But it was a sharply delineated wound. It was quite -regular in its outline. It measured, as I mentioned, 7 by 4 mm. Its -margins were similar in all respects when viewed with the naked eye to -the wound in the skull, which we feel incontrovertibly was a wound of -entrance. - -The defect in the fascia which is that layer of connective tissue over -the muscle just beneath the wound corresponded virtually exactly to the -defect in the skin. - -And for these reasons we felt that this was a wound of entrance. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you search the body to determine if there was any -bullet inside the body? - -Commander HUMES. Before the arrival of Colonel Finck we had made X-rays -of the head, neck and torso of the President, and the upper portions -of his major extremities, or both his upper and lower extremities. At -Colonel Finck's suggestion, we then completed the X-ray examination by -X-raying the President's body in toto, and those X-rays are available. - -Mr. SPECTER. What did those X-rays disclose with respect to the -possible presence of a missile in the President's body? - -Commander HUMES. They showed no evidence of a missile in the -President's body at any point. And these were examined by ourselves and -by the radiologist, who assisted us in this endeavor. - -Mr. SPECTER. What conclusion, if any, did you reach as to whether point -"D" on 385 was the point of entrance or exit? - -Commander HUMES. We concluded that this missile depicted in 385 "C" -which entered the President's body traversed the President's body and -made its exit through the wound observed by the physicians at Parkland -Hospital and later extended as a tracheotomy wound. - -Mr. SPECTER. Does the description "ragged wound" which is found in the -Parkland report shed any light in and of itself as to whether point "D" -is an exit or entry wound? - -Commander HUMES. I believe, sir, that that statement goes on, ragged -wound in the trachea. I don't believe that refers to the skin. And you -might say that it is a ragged wound is more likely to be a wound of -exit. - -However, the trachea has little cartilaginous rings which have a -tendency, which would be disrupted by this, and most wounds of the -trachea unless very cleverly incised would perhaps appear slightly -ragged. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, what was the angle, if any, that you observed on the -path of the bullet, as you outlined it? - -Commander HUMES. The angle which we observed in measuring, in comparing -the point of entrance, our point of entrance labeled "C" on 385 and -"D" point of exit is one that the point of exit is below the point of -entrance compared with the vertical. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you had an opportunity to examine the clothing which -has been identified for you as being that worn by the President on the -day of the assassination? - -Commander HUMES. Yes; yesterday, just shortly before the Commission -hearing today was begun, Mr. Chief Justice, we had opportunity for the -first time to examine the clothing worn by the late President. - -In private conversation among ourselves before this opportunity, we -predicted we would find defects in the clothing corresponding with the -defects which were found, of course, on the body of the late President. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, may it please the Commission, I would -like to have identified for the record three articles on which I -have placed Commission Exhibits Nos. 393 being the coat worn by the -President, 394 being the shirt, and 395 being the President's tie, and -at this time move for their admission into evidence. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The articles of clothing referred to were marked Commission Exhibits -Nos. 393, 394 and 395 for identification, and received in evidence.) - -Mr. SPECTER. Taking 393 at the start, Doctor Humes, will you describe -for the record what hole, if any, is observable in the back of that -garment which would be at or about the spot you have described as being -the point of entry on the President's back or lower neck. - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. This exhibit is a grey suit coat stated to -have been worn by the President on the day of his death. Situated to -the right of the midline high in the back portion of the coat is a -defect, one margin of which is semicircular. - -Situated above it just below the collar is an additional defect. It is -our opinion that the lower of these defects corresponds essentially -with the point of entrance of the missile at Point C on Exhibit 385. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would it be accurate to state that the hole which you have -identified as being the point of entry is approximately 6 inches below -the top of the collar, and 2 inches to the right of the middle seam of -the coat? - -Commander HUMES. That is approximately correct, sir. This defect, I -might say, continues on through the material. - -Attached to this garment is the memorandum which states that one half -of the area around the hole which was presented had been removed -by experts, I believe, at the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and -also that a control area was taken from under the collar, so it is -my interpretation that this defect at the top of this garment is the -control area taken by the Bureau, and that the reason the lower defect -is not more circle or oval in outline is because a portion of that -defect has been removed apparently for physical examinations. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, does the one which you have described as the entry of -the bullet go all the way through? - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; it goes through both layers. - -Mr. SPECTER. How about the upper one of the collar you have described, -does that go all the way through? - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; it goes all the way through. It is not--wait -a minute, excuse me--it is not so clearly a puncture wound as the one -below. - -Mr. SPECTER. Does the upper one go all the way through in the same -course? - -Commander HUMES. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Through the inner side as it went through the outer side? - -Commander HUMES. No, in an irregular fashion. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you take Commission Exhibit 394 and describe what -that is, first of all, please? - -Commander HUMES. This is the shirt, blood-stained shirt, purportedly -worn by the President on the day of his assassination. When viewed -from behind at a point which corresponds essentially with the point of -defect on the jacket, one sees an irregularly oval defect. - -When viewed anteriorly, with the top button buttoned, two additional -defects are seen. Of course, with the shirt buttoned, the fly front -of the shirt causes two layers of cloth to be present in this -location, and that there is a defect in the inner layer of cloth and a -corresponding defect in the outer layer of the cloth. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is there any observable indication from the fibers on the -front side of the shirt to indicate in which direction a missile might -have passed through those two tears? - -Commander HUMES. From an examination of these defects at this point, it -would appear that the missile traversed these two layers from within to -the exterior. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would it be accurate to state that the hole in the back of -the shirt is approximately 6 inches below the top of the collar and 2 -inches to the right of the middle seam of the shirt? - -Commander HUMES. That is approximately correct, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, how, if at all, do the holes in the shirt and coat -conform to the wound of entrance which you described as point "C" on -Commission Exhibit 385? - -Commander HUMES. We believe that they conform quite well. When -viewing--first of all, the wounds or the defects in 393 and 394 -coincide virtually exactly with one another. - -They give the appearance when viewed separately and not as part of the -clothing of a clothed person as being perhaps, somewhat lower on the -Exhibits 393 and 394 than we have depicted them in Exhibit No. 385. We -believe there are two reasons for this. - -385 is a schematic representation, and the photographs would be more -accurate as to the precise location, but more particularly the way in -which these defects would conform with such a defect on the torso would -depend on the girth of the shoulders and configuration of the base of -the neck of the individual, and the relative position of the shirt -and coat to the tissues of the body at the time of the impact of the -missile. - -Mr. SPECTER. As to the muscular status of the President, what was it? - -Commander HUMES. The President was extremely well-developed, an -extremely well-developed, muscular young man with a very well-developed -set of muscles in his thoraco and shoulder girdle. - -Mr. SPECTER. What effect would that have on the positioning of the -shirt and coat with respect to the position of the neck in and about -the seam? - -Commander HUMES. I believe this would have a tendency to push the -portions of the coat which show the defects here somewhat higher on the -back of the President than on a man of less muscular development. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, may it please the Commission, I would -like to mark for identification Exhibit 396, which later proof will -show is a picture of President Kennedy shortly before the first bullet -struck him, and ask the doctor to take a look at that. - -Will you describe, Doctor Humes, the position of President Kennedy's -right hand in that picture? - -Commander HUMES. Yes. This exhibit, Commission Exhibit No. 396, -allegedly taken just prior to the wounding of the late President, shows -him with his hand raised, his elbow bent, apparently in saluting the -crowd. I believe that this action---- - -Mr. SPECTER. Which hand was that? - -Commander HUMES. This was his right hand, sir. I believe that this -action would further accentuate the elevation of the coat and the shirt -with respect to the back of the President. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now. Doctor Humes, will you take Commission Exhibit No. -395---- - -Mr. McCLOY. Before you go, may I ask a question? In your examination of -the shirt, I just want to get it in the record, from your examination -of the shirt, there is no defect in the collar of the shirt which -coincides with the defect in the back of the President's coat, am I -correct? - -Commander HUMES. You are correct, sir. There is no such defect. - -Mr. SPECTER. As to Commission Exhibit 395, Dr. Humes, will you identify -what that is, please? - -Commander HUMES. We had an opportunity to examine this exhibit before -the Commission met today, sir. This is Commission Exhibit No. 395, and -is the neck tie purportedly worn, purportedly to have been worn, by the -late President on the day of his assassination. - -Mr. SPECTER. What defect, if any, is noted on the tie which would -correspond with the path of a missile apparently passing through the -folds of the shirt which you have already described? - -Commander HUMES. This tie is one of those--this tie is still in its -knotted state, as we examine it at this time. The portion of the tie -around the neck has been severed apparently with scissors or other -sharp instrument accounting for the loop about the neck. - -The tie is tied in four-in-hand fashion but somewhat askew from the way -a person would normally tie a four-in-hand knot. - -Situated on the left anterior aspect of this knotted portion of the -tie at a point approximately corresponding with the defects noted -previously in the two layers of the shirt is a superficial tear of the -outer layer only of the fabric of this tie which, I believe, could have -been caused by a glancing blow to this portion of the tie by a missile. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, I move at this time for the admission -into evidence of Exhibits 393 through Exhibit 396, the three articles -of clothing and the photograph which we have just used. - -The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted. - -(Exhibits Nos. 393 through 396 were received in evidence and may be -found in the Commission files.) - -Mr. McCLOY. Commander, did you say left or right? - -Commander HUMES. No, sir. In fact, the way this bow is tied now it -would appear to be on the left of this tie, but it is kind of twisted -out of shape. - -Mr. McCLOY. Yes. It is twisted. It is not too clear. - -Commander HUMES. It is not too clear, it is not clear how that might -have been in position with the shirt, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, Doctor Humes, at one point in your examination of the -President, did you make an effort to probe the point of entry with your -finger? - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. SPECTER. And at or about that time when you were trying to -ascertain, as you previously testified, whether there was any missile -in the body of the President, did someone from the Secret Service call -your attention to the fact that a bullet had been found on a stretcher -at Parkland Hospital? - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; they did. - -Mr. SPECTER. And in that posture of your examination, having just -learned of the presence of a bullet on a stretcher, did that call to -your mind any tentative explanatory theory of the point of entry or -exit of the bullet which you have described as entering at Point "C" on -Exhibit 385? - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. We were able to ascertain with absolute -certainty that the bullet had passed by the apical portion of the right -lung producing the injury which we mentioned. - -I did not at that point have the information from Doctor Perry -about the wound in the anterior neck, and while that was a possible -explanation for the point of exit, we also had to consider the -possibility that the missile in some rather inexplicable fashion had -been stopped in its path through the President's body and, in fact, -then had fallen from the body onto the stretcher. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what theory did you think possible, at that juncture, -to explain the passing of the bullet back out the point of entry; or -had you been provided with the fact that external heart massage had -been performed on the President? - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; we had, and we considered the possibility -that some of the physical maneuvering performed by the doctors might -have in some way caused this event to take place. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you since discounted that possibility, Doctor -Humes? - -Commander HUMES. Yes; in essence we have. When examining the wounds -in the base of the President's neck anteriorly, the region of the -tracheotomy performed at Parkland Hospital, we noted, and we noted in -our record, some contusion and bruising of the muscles of the neck of -the President. We noted that at the time of the postmortem examination. - -Now, we also made note of the types of wounds which I mentioned to you -before in this testimony on the chest which were going to be used by -the doctors there to place chest tubes. They also made other wounds, -one on the left arm, and a wound on the ankle of the President with -the idea of administering intravenous blood and other fluids in hope -of replacing the blood which the President had lost from his extensive -wounds. - -Those wounds showed no evidence of bruising or contusion or physical -violence, which made us reach the conclusion that they were performed -during the agonal moments of the late president, and when the -circulation was, in essence, very seriously embarrassed, if not -nonfunctional. So that these wounds, the wound of the chest and the -wound of the arm and of the ankle were performed about the same time as -the tracheotomy wound because only a very few moments of time elapsed -when all this was going on. - -So, therefore, we reached the conclusion that the damage to these -muscles on the anterior neck just below this wound were received at -approximately the same time that the wound here on the top of the -pleural cavity was, while the President still lived and while his heart -and lungs were operating in such a fashion to permit him to have a -bruise in the vicinity, because that he did have in these strap muscles -in the neck, but he didn't have in the areas of the other incisions -that were made at Parkland Hospital. So we feel that, had this missile -not made its path in that fashion, the wound made by Doctor Perry in -the neck would not have been able to produce, wouldn't have been able -to produce, these contusions of the musculature of the neck. - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question about the missile, I am a little -bit--the bullet, I am a little bit--confused. It was found on the -stretcher. Did the President's body remain on the stretcher while it -was in the hospital? - -Commander HUMES. Of that point I have no knowledge. The only---- - -Mr. DULLES. Why would it--would this operating have anything to do with -the bullet being on the stretcher unless the President's body remained -on the stretcher after he was taken into the hospital; is that possible? - -Commander HUMES. It is quite possible, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Otherwise it seems to me the bullet would have to have been -ejected from the body before he was taken or put on the bed in the -hospital. - -Commander HUMES. Right, sir. I, of course, was not there. I don't know -how he was handled in the hospital, in what conveyance. I do know he -was on his back during the period of his stay in the hospital; Doctor -Perry told me that. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes; and wasn't turned over. - -Commander HUMES. That is right. - -Mr. DULLES. So he might have been on the stretcher the whole time, is -that your view? - -The CHAIRMAN. He said he had no view. He wasn't there, he doesn't know -anything about it. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. I wonder if there is other evidence of this. - -Mr. SPECTER. There has been other evidence, Mr. Dulles. If I may say -at this point, we shall produce later, subject to sequential proof, -evidence that the stretcher on which this bullet was found was the -stretcher of Governor Connally. We have a sequence of events on the -transmission of that stretcher which ties that down reasonably closely, -so that on the night of the autopsy itself, as the information I have -been developing indicates, the thought preliminarily was that was from -President Kennedy's stretcher, and that is what led to the hypothesis -which we have been exploring about, but which has since been rejected. -But at any rate the evidence will show that it was from Governor -Connally's stretcher that the bullet was found. - -Mr. DULLES. So this bullet is still missing? - -Mr. SPECTER. That is the subject of some theories I am about to get -into. That is an elusive subject, but Dr. Humes has some views on it, -and we might just as well go into those now. - -Mr. McCLOY. Before he gets into that, may I ask a question? - -The CHAIRMAN. Surely, go right ahead. - -Mr. McCLOY. Quite apart from the President's clothing, now directing -your attention to the flight of the bullet, quite apart from the -evidence given by the President's clothing, you, I believe, indicated -that the flight of the bullet was from the back, from above and behind. -It took roughly the line which is shown on your Exhibit 385. - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. I am not clear what induced you to come to that conclusion -if you couldn't find the actual exit wound by reason of the tracheotomy. - -Commander HUMES. The report which we have submitted, sir, represents -our thinking within the 24-48 hours of the death of the President, all -facts taken into account of the situation. - -The wound in the anterior portion of the lower neck is physically lower -than the point of entrance posteriorly, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. That is what I wanted to bring out. - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. May I ask this: In spite of the incision made by the -tracheotomy, was there any evidence left of the exit aperture? - -Commander HUMES. Unfortunately not that we could ascertain, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. I see. - -Mr. DULLES. There is no evidence in the coat or the shirt of an exit -through the coat or shirt. - -Commander HUMES. There is no exit through the coat, sir. But these two, -in the shirt, of course--excuse me, sir--there is. The entrance by our -calculations---- - -Mr. DULLES. The entrance I know. - -Commander HUMES. Posteriorly. - -Mr. DULLES. What about the exit? - -Commander HUMES. The exit wounds are just below. - -Mr. DULLES. But there was no coat to exit through. - -Commander HUMES. No; anteriorly the coat was quite open. - -Senator COOPER. May I ask a question? - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir, Senator. - -Senator COOPER. Assuming that we draw a straight line from Point "C" -which you have described as a possible point of entry of the missile, -to Point "D" where you saw an incision of the tracheotomy---- - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. What would be the relation of the bruise at the apex of -the pleural sac to such a line? - -Commander HUMES. It would be exactly in line with such a line, sir, -exactly. - -Senator COOPER. What was the character of the bruise that you saw there? - -Commander HUMES. The bruise here, photographs are far superior to my -humble verbal description, but if I let my hand in cup shaped fashion -represent the apical parietal pleura, it was an area approximately 5 -cm. in greatest diameter of purplish blue discoloration of the parietal -pleura. Corresponding exactly with it, with the lung sitting below it, -was a roughly pyramid-shaped bruise with its base toward the surface of -the upper portion of the lung, and the apex down into the lung tissue, -and the whole thing measured about 5 cm., which is a little--2 inches -in extent, sir. - -Senator COOPER. What would be the--can you describe the covering around -the apex of the pleural sac, the nature of its protection. My point is -to get your opinion as to whether some other factor, some factor other -than the missile could have caused this bruise which you saw. - -Commander HUMES. A couple of ways we might do this, sir. One with -regard to temporal, it was quite fresh. When examined under the -microscope, the lung in this area had recent hemorrhaging in it. The -red blood cells were well-preserved, as they would be if it happened -quite recently before death, as was the red blood cells where they had -gotten out into the lung tissue near there. - -The discoloration was essentially of the same character as the -discoloration in the muscles adjacent thereto, which would roughly -again place it temporally in approximately the same time since bruises -change color as time goes by, and these appeared quite fresh. - -This is with regard to time--I don't know whether that is the right -parameter in which you wished to study it, Senator. - -Senator COOPER. My question really went to this point: Considering the -location of the bruise at the apex of the pleural sac---- - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. - -Senator COOPER. And of the tissue or muscles around it, was there any -other factor which you could think of that might have caused that -bruise other than the passage of a missile? - -Commander HUMES. It was so well localized that I truthfully, sir, can't -think of any other way. - -Senator COOPER. That is all. - -Mr. McCLOY. May I ask you one question which, perhaps, the answer is -quite obvious. If, contrary to the evidence that we have here, that -anterior wound was the wound of entry, the shot must have come from -below the President to have followed that path. - -Commander HUMES. That course, that is correct, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Humes, can you compare the angles of declination on -385, point "C" to "D", with 388 "A" to "B"? - -Commander HUMES. You will note, and again I must apologize for the -schematic nature of these diagrams drawn to a certain extent from -memory and to a certain extent from the written record, it would appear -that the angle of declination is somewhat sharper in the head wound, -388, than it is in 385. - -The reason for this, we feel, by the pattern of the entrance wound at -388 "A" causes us to feel that the President's head was bent forward, -and we feel this accounts for the difference in the angle, plus -undoubtedly the wounds were not received absolutely simultaneously, so -that the vehicle in which the President was traveling moved during this -period of time, which would account for a difference in the line of -flight, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Aside from the slight differences which are notable by -observing those two exhibits, are they roughly comparable to the angle -of decline? - -Commander HUMES. I believe them to be roughly comparable, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could you state for the record an approximation of the -angle of decline? - -Commander HUMES. Mathematics is not my forte. Approximately 45 degrees -from the horizontal. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you elaborate somewhat, Doctor Humes, on why the -angle would change by virtue of a tilting of the head of the President -since the basis of the computation of angle is with respect to the -ground? - -Commander HUMES. I find the question a little difficult of answering -right off, forgive me, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. I will try to rephrase it. Stated more simply, why would -the tilting of the President's head affect the angle of the decline? -You stated that was---- - -Commander HUMES. The angle that I am making an observation most -about is the angle made that we envisioned having been made by the -impingement of the bullet in its flight at the point of entry. This -angle we see by the difference of the measurement of the two wounds. - -Therefore, this is--we have several angles we are talking about here, -unfortunately, this is--the angle of which we speak in this location, -"A" to "B", and it is difficult. - -I have to retract. Since we feel from their physical configurations, -wounds 385 "C" and 388 "A" are entrance wounds, if there wasn't some -significant change in the angulation of the President's head with -respect to the line of flight from these missiles, the physical -measurements of 385 "C" and this 388 "A" should be similar. They -aren't, in fact, dissimilar in that there is a greater angulation in -388 "A". Therefore, there has to be either a change in the position -of the vehicle in which the President is riding with respect to the -horizontal or a change in the situation of the President's head. I -believe that the exhibits submitted earlier, the photograph---- - -Mr. SPECTER. I believe the ones were given to you so far--excuse me, -you are right, 389. - -Commander HUMES. 389, in fact at this point shows the President's head -in a slightly inclined forward position, and I am not enough aware of -the geography of the ground over which the vehicle was traveling to -know how much that would affect it. - -Mr. SPECTER. If you were to be told that there was a distance traversed -of approximately 150 feet from the time of Point "C" on 385 to Point -"A" on 388, and you would assume the additional factor that there was -a slight angle of decline on the street as well, would those factors, -assuming them to be true, help in the explanation of the differences in -the angles? - -Commander HUMES. I think that they would make the figure as depicted in -388 quite understandably different from 385. - -Mr. DULLES. Was it possible, in view of the condition of the brain to -point with absolute accuracy to the point of exit there? I can see -that the point of exit in 385 can be clearly determined. Is it equally -possible to determine the point of exit in 388? - -Commander HUMES. No, sir; it was not, other than through this large -defect because when---- - -Mr. DULLES. Therefore, that angle might be somewhat different. - -Commander HUMES. Might be somewhat different, sir. I think we made -reference to that somewhat earlier. The fragments were so difficult to -replace in their precise anatomic location---- - -Mr. DULLES. That is what I thought, but I wasn't sure. - -Commander HUMES. That is correct. - -Mr. McCLOY. I would like to ask a question in regard to 385 similar to -that I asked as to 388. In your opinion, was the 385 wound lethal? - -Commander HUMES. No, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. With the wound in 385, would it have affected the -President's power of speech? - -Commander HUMES. It could have, sir. The wound caused a defect in his -trachea which would most usually have caused at least some defect in -the proper phonation, sir. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -The CHAIRMAN. On the record. - -Mr. SPECTER. In response to Mr. Dulles' question a moment ago, Doctor -Humes, you commented that they did not turn him over at Parkland. Will -you state for the record what the source of your information is on that? - -Commander HUMES. Yes. This is a result of a personal telephone -conversation between myself and Dr. Malcolm Perry early in the morning -of Saturday, November 23. - -Mr. SPECTER. At that time did Doctor Perry tell you specifically, -Doctor Humes, that the Parkland doctors had not observed the wound in -the President's back? - -Commander HUMES. He told me that the President was on his back from the -time he was brought into the hospital until the time he left it, and -that at no time was he turned from his back by the doctors. - -Mr. SPECTER. And at the time of your conversation with Doctor Perry did -you tell Doctor Perry anything of your observations or conclusions? - -Commander HUMES. No, sir; I did not. - -(A short recess was taken.) - -The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, the Commission will be in order. We will -continue with the examination. - -Mr. SPECTER. Doctor Humes, as to points of entry on the body of the -late President, how many were there in total? - -Commander HUMES. Two, sir, as depicted in 385-C and 388-A. - -Mr. SPECTER. And to points of exit, how many were there? - -Commander HUMES. Two, sir, as depicted in 385-D and the vicinity -of 388-B. I make the latter remark as was developed earlier, in -that the size of the large defect in the skull was so great and the -fragmentation was so complex that it was impossible to accurately -pinpoint the exit of the missile in the head wound. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now as to that last factor, would the X-rays be of -material assistance to you in pinpointing the specific locale of the -exit? - -Commander HUMES. I do not believe so, sir. The only path that the -X-rays show in any detail are of the minor fragments which passed from -point A to point B. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now that you have finished your major descriptions of -the wounds, can you be any more specific in telling us in what way -the availability of the x-rays would assist in further specifying the -nature of the wounds? - -Commander HUMES. I do not believe, sir, that the availability of the -X-rays would materially assist the Commission. - -Mr. SPECTER. How about the same question as to the pictures? - -Commander HUMES. The pictures would show more accurately and in more -detail the character of the wounds as depicted particularly in 385 and -386 and in 388-A. They would also perhaps give the Commissioners a -better--better is not the best term, but a more graphic picture of the -massive defect in 388. - -Mr. SPECTER. Going back for a moment, Doctor Humes---- - -The CHAIRMAN. Before we get off that, may I ask you this, Commander: If -we had the pictures here and you could look them over again and restate -your opinion, would it cause you to change any of the testimony you -have given here? - -Commander HUMES. To the best of my recollection, Mr. Chief Justice, it -would not. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. McCloy. - -Mr. McCLOY. May I ask this question? - -The CHAIRMAN. Go right ahead. - -Mr. McCLOY. Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not any -photographs were taken in Dallas? - -Commander HUMES. I have none, sir, no knowledge. - -Mr. McCLOY. No knowledge that any were taken? - -Representative FORD. May I ask what size are the pictures to which you -refer? - -Commander HUMES. We exposed both black and white and color negatives, -Congressman. They were exposed in the morgue during the examination. -They were not developed. The kodachrome negatives when developed would -be 405. They were in film carriers or cassettes, as were the black and -white. Of course they could be magnified. - -Representative FORD. Have those been examined by personnel at Bethesda? - -Commander HUMES. No, sir. We exposed these negatives; we turned them -over. Here I must ask the counsel again for advice--to the Secret -Service. - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes; it was the Secret Service. - -Commander HUMES. They were turned over to the Secret Service in their -cassettes unexposed, and I have not seen any of them since. This is the -photographs. The X-rays were developed in our X-ray department on the -spot that evening, because we had to see those right then as part of -our examination, but the photographs were made for the record and for -other purposes. - -Representative FORD. But they had never been actually developed for -viewing. - -Commander HUMES. I do not know, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Doctor Humes, back to the angles for just a moment. - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Hypothesize or assume, if you will, that other evidence -will show that the wound inflicted on Commission Exhibit 385 at point -C occurred while the President was riding in the rear seat of his -automobile approximately 100 feet from a point of origin in a six-floor -building nearby, and assume further that the wound inflicted in 388 at -point A occurred when the President was approximately 250 feet away -from the same point. - -With those assumptions in mind, there would be somewhat different -angles of declination going from C to D on 385 and from A to B on 388. - -Commander HUMES. I would expect there would. - -Mr. SPECTER. You have already testified earlier today that you were -unable to pinpoint with precision angle A to B on 388 because of the -reconstruction of the scalp. - -Now my question to you, in that elongated fashion, is from what you -know and what you have described, are the angles, as you have expressed -them to be in your opinion, consistent with a situation where the two -wounds were inflicted at the angles and at the distances just described -to you? - -Commander HUMES. I believe they are consistent. I would state that the -path outlined on 388-A to B is to a certain extent conjectural for the -reasons given before. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, Doctor Humes, I hand you a group of documents which -have been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 397 and ask you if you can -identify what they are? - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; these are various notes in long-hand, or -copies rather, of various notes in long-hand made by myself, in part, -during the performance of the examination of the late President, and in -part after the examination when I was preparing to have a typewritten -report made. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are there also included there some notes that you made -while you talked to Doctor Perry on the telephone? - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; there are. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are there any notes which you made at any time which are -not included in this group of notes? - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; there are. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what do those consist of? - -Commander HUMES. In privacy of my own home, early in the morning of -Sunday, November 24th, I made a draft of this report which I later -revised, and of which this represents the revision. That draft I -personally burned in the fireplace of my recreation room. - -Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that the Exhibit No. 397 is the -identical document which has been previously identified as Commission -No. 371 for our internal purposes. - -Is the first sheet then in that group the notes you made when you -talked to Doctor Perry? - -Commander HUMES. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And do the next 15 sheets represent the rough draft which -was later copied into the autopsy report which has been heretofore -identified with an exhibit number? - -Commander HUMES. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what do the next two sheets represent? - -Commander HUMES. The next two sheets are the notes actually made in the -room in which the examination was taking place. I notice now that the -handwriting in some instances is not my own, and it is either that of -Commander Boswell or Colonel Finck. - -Mr. SPECTER. And was that writing made at the same time that the -autopsy report was undertaken; that is, did you review all of the -markings on those papers and note them to be present when you completed -the autopsy report? - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. From the time of the completion of this -examination until the submission of the written report following its -preparation, all of the papers pertinent to this case were in my -personal custody. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all of the documents which were -present in that 397, Exhibit No. 397? - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; with the exception of the certification -to the fact that I, in fact, detailed them in my custody, and a -certification that I had destroyed certain preliminary draft notes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And these represent all the notes except those you have -already described which you destroyed? - -Commander HUMES. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now, just one point on the notes themselves. Page 14 of -your rough draft, Doctor Humes, as to the point of origin, the notes -show that there was a revision between your first draft and your final -report. - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you first of all read into the record the final -conclusion reflected in your final report. - -Commander HUMES. I would rather read it from the final report. The -final report reads: - -"The projectiles were fired from a point behind and somewhat above the -level of the deceased." - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did the first draft of that sentence as shown on -page 14 of your rough draft state? - -Commander HUMES. It stated as follows: - -"The projectiles were fired from a point behind and somewhat above a -horizontal line to the vertical position of the body at the moment of -impact." - -Mr. SPECTER. Now would you state the reason for making that -modification between draft and final report, please? - -Commander HUMES. This examination, as I have indicated, was performed -by myself with my two associates. The notes which we have just admitted -as an exhibit are in my own hand and are my opinion, was my opinion at -that time, as to the best way to present the facts which we had gleaned -during this period. - -Before submitting it to the typist, I went over this with great care -with my two associates. One or the other of them raised the point -that perhaps this sentence would state more than what was absolutely -fact based upon our observations, pointing out that we did not know -precisely at that time in what position the body of the President was -when the missiles struck, and that therefore we should be somewhat -less specific and somewhat more circumspect than the way we stated it. -When I considered this suggestion, I agreed that it would be better to -change it as noted, and accordingly, I did so. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, I move now for the admission into -evidence of Exhibit No. 397. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The documents, previously marked Exhibit No. 397 for identification, -were received in evidence.) - -Mr. McCLOY. May I ask one question about the notes? The notes that you -made contemporaneously with your examination, you said you put those -down and then you put some in later. How much later were the notes, -within the best of your recollection of the final notes made, not the -final report, but the final notes that you made in your own handwriting? - -Commander HUMES. The examination was concluded approximately at 11 -o'clock on the night of November 22. The final changes in the notes -prior to the typing of the report were made, and I will have to give -you the time because whatever time Mr. Oswald was shot, that is -about when I finished. I was working in an office, and someone had a -television on and came in and told me that Mr. Oswald had been shot, -and that was around noon on Sunday, November 24th. - -Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, I have now marked another photograph -as the next exhibit number, Commission Exhibit 398. May I say to the -Commission that this is a photograph which, subject to later proof, -will show it to be taken immediately after the President was struck by -the first bullet. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be marked. - -(The photograph was marked Commission Exhibit No. 398 for -identification.) - -May I move for its admission into evidence at this time for this -purpose? - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The photograph, previously marked Commission Exhibit No. 398 for -identification, was received in evidence.) - -Looking at Commission Exhibit 398, Doctor Humes, with that as a -background, have you had an opportunity to review the medical reports -on Governor Connally at Parkland Hospital in Commission Exhibit 392? - -Commander HUMES. I have. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you noted the wounds which he sustained on his right -wrist, that is, Governor Connally's right wrist? - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; I have noted the report of it in these -records. - -Mr. SPECTER. What does the report show as to those wounds on the right -wrist? - -Commander HUMES. The report shows a wound of entrance on the dorsal -aspect of the right wrist. Let's get the precise point here. The wound -of entry is described as on the dorsal aspect of the right wrist above -the junction of the distal fourth of the radius and the shaft. It was -approximately two centimeters in length and rather oblique, with the -loss of tissue, and some considerable contusions at the margins. There -was a wound of exit along the volar surface of the wrist about two -centimeters above the flexion crease of the wrist in the midline. - -Mr. SPECTER. Doctor Humes, I show you a bullet which we have marked as -Commission Exhibit No. 399, and may I say now that, subject to later -proof, this is the missile which has been taken from the stretcher -which the evidence now indicates was the stretcher occupied by Governor -Connally. - -I move for its admission into evidence at this time. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The article, previously marked Commission Exhibit No. 399 for -identification, was received in evidence.) - -Mr. SPECTER. We have been asked by the FBI that the missile not be -handled by anybody because it is undergoing further ballistic tests, -and it now appears, may the record show, in a plastic case in a cotton -background. - -Now looking at that bullet, Exhibit 399, Doctor Humes, could that -bullet have gone through or been any part of the fragment passing -through President Kennedy's head in Exhibit No. 388? - -Commander HUMES. I do not believe so, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And could that missile have made the wound on Governor -Connally's right wrist? - -Commander HUMES. I think that that is most unlikely. May I expand on -those two answers? - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes, please do. - -Commander HUMES. The X-rays made of the wound in the head of the late -President showed fragmentations of the missile. Some fragments we -recovered and turned over, as has been previously noted. Also we have -X-rays of the fragment of skull which was in the region of our opinion -exit wound showing metallic fragments. - -Also going to Exhibit 392, the report from Parkland Hospital, the -following sentence referring to the examination of the wound of the -wrist is found: - -"Small bits of metal were encountered at various levels throughout -the wound, and these were, wherever they were identified and could be -picked up, picked up and submitted to the pathology department for -identification and examination." - -The reason I believe it most unlikely that this missile could have -inflicted either of these wounds is that this missile is basically -intact; its jacket appears to me to be intact, and I do not understand -how it could possibly have left fragments in either of these locations. - -Mr. SPECTER. What wounds did Governor Connally sustain in his chest -area, based upon the records of Parkland Hospital, which you have -examined, Doctor Humes? - -Commander HUMES. Governor Connally received in his chest a wound of -entrance just--this is again from 392--"just lateral to the right -scapula close to the axilla which had passed through the lattisimus -dorsi muscle, shattered approximately ten centimeters of a lateral and -anterior portion of the right fifth rib, and emerged below the right -nipple anterially." - -These were the wounds of the chest of Governor Connally. - -Mr. SPECTER. Now assuming that there were only three missiles fired, -and bearing in mind the positions of President Kennedy and Governor -Connally from the photograph marked Commission Exhibit 398, do you -have an opinion as to the source of the missiles which inflicted the -wound on President Kennedy marked 385-C to D, and the wound in Governor -Connally's chest which you have just referred to? - -Commander HUMES. Yes. I would preface this statement by the following: -As I testified earlier in the afternoon, as much as we could ascertain -from our X-rays and physical examinations, this missile struck no bony -structures in traversing the body of the late President. Therefore, I -believe it was moving at its exit from the President's body at only -very slightly less than that velocity, so it was still traveling at -great speed. - -I believe in looking at Exhibit 398, which purports to be at -approximately the time the President was struck, I see that Governor -Connally is sitting directly in front of the late President, and -suggest the possibility that this missile, having traversed the low -neck of the late President, in fact traversed the chest of Governor -Connally. - -Mr. SPECTER. How much of the velocity, if any, or would there be an -appreciable diminution of the velocity of the projectile on passing -through the portions of President Kennedy's body which you have -described? - -Commander HUMES. I would have to defer to my associate, Colonel Finck, -for an opinion about this. - -Mr. SPECTER. Fine. As to any damage to the rib which you described -Governor Connally sustained, would that impact or trauma be consistent -with the markings which are shown on Exhibit 399? - -Commander HUMES. I think it quite possible. Here I think if this point -were to be explored further, a most valuable piece of evidence would be -an X-ray of the chest of Governor Connally, because I believe that this -missile could have struck the rib a glancing blow. - -The rib is a rather rigid structure, and the missile would not have -to strike it directly to cause the fracture that was described, and -the fracture is not very clearly described to me, and if an X-ray, for -instance, showed no metallic fragments in the chest of the Governor, -I would think it quite likely that this was the missile that had -traversed his chest, because I doubt if this missile would have left -behind it any metallic fragments from its physical appearance at this -time. - -Mr. SPECTER. Could that missile have traversed Governor Connally's -chest without having him know it immediately or instantaneously? - -Commander HUMES. I believe so. I have heard reports, and have been told -by my professional associates of any number of instances where people -received penetrating wounds in various portions of the body and have -only the sensation of a slight discomfort or slight slap or some other -minor difficulty from such a missile wound. I am sure he would be aware -that something happened to him, but that he was shot, I am not certain. - -Representative FORD. Would that have been the potential reaction of the -President when first hit, as shown in 385? - -Commander HUMES. It could very easily be one of some type of an -injury--I mean the awareness that he had been struck by a missile, I -don't know, but people have been drilled through with a missile and -didn't know it. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Humes, under your opinion which you have just given -us, what effect, if any, would that have on whether this bullet, 399, -could have been the one to lodge in Governor Connally's thigh? - -Commander HUMES. I think that extremely unlikely. The reports, again -Exhibit 392 from Parkland, tell of an entrance wound on the lower -midthigh of the Governor, and X-rays taken there are described as -showing metallic fragments in the bone, which apparently by this report -were not removed and are still present in Governor Connally's thigh. I -can't conceive of where they came from this missile. - -Representative FORD. The missile identified as Exhibit 399. - -Commander HUMES. 399, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Doctor Humes, would you have an opinion as to whether the -wounds on Governor Connally's wrist and thigh were caused by the same -bullet? - -Commander HUMES. In reading the description of the fragmentation that -was found, fragments were found in the wrist, one fragment was found -imbedded in his femur, I would feel it was definitely within the realm -of possibility that the same missile could have produced both of those -injuries. - -Mr. SPECTER. Those are all my questions, Mr. Chief Justice. - -The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other questions? If not, thank you very -much, Commander. You have been very helpful to us, indeed. - -Commander HUMES. Thank you very much, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. - -Mr. SPECTER. Commander Boswell. - -Mr. McCLOY. May I ask one more question? - -The CHAIRMAN. Of course you may. - -Mr. McCLOY. Earlier in the afternoon we had taken out of cellophane -bags here the clothing of the President. - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. And amongst them was the shirt. - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. From your examination of the wounds, of the defects, I -guess you would call it in the shirt---- - -Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McCLOY. Would you from examining the tissues of that shirt have any -conclusions as to how that wound, how that missile passed through the -shirt? Was it from the rear to the front, or from the front to the rear? - -Commander HUMES. As I examined that exhibit today, sir, the threads are -fragmented and distorted in such a fashion which would indicate to me -that the missile passed through the shirt from the rear to the front. - - -TESTIMONY OF COMDR. J. THORNTON BOSWELL, MEDICAL CORPS, U.S. NAVY - -The CHAIRMAN. Commander Boswell, will you raise your right hand and be -sworn, please? - -Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission -will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help -you God? - -Commander BOSWELL. I do, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Be seated, please. - -Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please? - -Commander BOSWELL. J. Thornton Boswell, Commander, Medical Corps, U.S. -Navy. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession? - -Commander BOSWELL. Physician. - -Mr. SPECTER. And where did you obtain your medical degree, please? - -Commander BOSWELL. At the College of Medicine, Ohio State University. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what experience have you had in your professional line -subsequent to obtaining that degree? - -Commander BOSWELL. I interned in the Navy and took my pathology -training at St. Albans Naval Hospital in New York. I was certified -by the American Board of Pathology in both clinical and pathological -anatomy in 1957 and 1958. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is your duty assignment at the present time? - -Commander BOSWELL. I am the Chief of Pathology at the National Naval -Medical School. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to participate in the autopsy of the -late President Kennedy? - -Commander BOSWELL. I did. - -Mr. SPECTER. And did you assist Doctor Humes at that time? - -Commander BOSWELL. Yes, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you been present here today during the entire course -of Doctor Humes' testimony? - -Commander BOSWELL. I have, sir; yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything that you would like to add by way of -elaboration or modification to that which Doctor Humes has testified? - -Commander BOSWELL. None, I believe. Doctor Humes has stated essentially -what is the culmination of our examination and our subsequent -conference, and everything is exactly as we had determined our -conclusions. - -Mr. SPECTER. And are you one of the three coauthors of the autopsy -report which has been previously identified as a Commission Exhibit? - -Commander BOSWELL. Yes; I am. - -Mr. SPECTER. All the facts set forth therein are correct in accordance -with your analysis and evaluation of the situation? - -Commander BOSWELL. Yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. And specifically, as to the points of entry and points of -exit which have been testified to by Doctor Humes, do his views express -yours as well? - -Commander BOSWELL. They do, yes. - -Mr. SPECTER. Doctor Boswell, would you state for the record what your -conclusion was as to the cause of death of President Kennedy? - -Commander BOSWELL. The brain injury was the cause of death. - -Mr. SPECTER. And in the absence of brain injury, what, in your view, -would have been the future status of President Kennedy's mortality, if -he had only sustained the wound inflicted in 385? - -Commander BOSWELL. I believe it would have been essentially an -uneventful recovery. It could have been easily repaired, and I think it -would have been of little consequence. - -Mr. SPECTER. Those are my only questions, Mr. Chief Justice. - -The CHAIRMAN. Does anyone have any questions of the Commander? If not, -Commander, thank you very much, indeed. You have been very helpful to -us. - -Mr. SPECTER. Colonel Finck. - - -TESTIMONY OF LT. COL. PIERRE A. FINCK, PHYSICIAN, U. S. ARMY - -The CHAIRMAN. Colonel Finck. - -Colonel, will you raise your right hand and be sworn? Do you solemnly -swear that the testimony you give before this Commission will be the -truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Colonel FINCK. I do. - -The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please, Colonel? - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? - -Colonel FINCK. My first name is Pierre. My middle initial is "A". My -last name is Finck. - -Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, sir? - -Colonel FINCK. I am a physician. - -Mr. SPECTER. And by whom are you employed? - -Colonel FINCK. By the United States Army. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is your rank? - -Colonel FINCK. I am a lieutenant colonel in the Medical Corps. - -Mr. SPECTER. Where did you obtain your medical degree? - -Colonel FINCK. At the University of Geneva Medical School in -Switzerland. - -Mr. SPECTER. And in what year did you obtain that degree? - -Colonel FINCK. In 1948. - -Mr. SPECTER. What has your experience been in the medical profession -subsequent to obtaining that degree? - -Colonel FINCK. I had 4 years of training in pathology after my -internship, 2 years, including 2 years of pathology at the University -Institute of Pathology in Geneva, Switzerland, and 2 years at the -University of Tennessee Institute of Pathology in Memphis, Tenn. - -Mr. SPECTER. And how long have you been in the United States Army? - -Colonel FINCK. Since 1955. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what have your duties consisted of in the Army? - -Colonel FINCK. From 1955 to 1958 I performed approximately 200 -autopsies, many of them pertaining to trauma including missile wounds, -stationed at Frankfurt, Germany as pathologist of the United States -Army Hospital in Frankfurt, Germany. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you had any additional, special training or -experience in missile wounds? - -Colonel FINCK. For the past 3 years I was Chief of the Wound Ballistics -Pathology Branch of the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology and in that -capacity I reviewed personally all the cases forwarded to us by the -Armed Forces, and some civilian cases from the United States and our -forces overseas. The number of these cases amounts to approximately 400 -cases. I was called as a consultant in the field of missile wounds for -this particular case, and also last year in February 1963, the Surgeon -General of the Army sent me to Vietnam for a wound ballistics mission. -I had to testify in a murder trial involving a 30/30 rifle in the first -week of March this year, and I came back yesterday after one week in -Panama where I had to testify. I was sent to Panama by the Secretary of -the Army regarding the fatalities of the events of 9-10 in January of -1964. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you been certified by the American Board of -Pathology, Doctor Finck? - -Colonel FINCK. I was certified in pathology anatomy by the American -Board of Pathology in 1956, and by the same American Board of Pathology -in the field of forensic pathology in 1961. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe briefly for the Commission what -forensic pathology involves? - -Colonel FINCK. Forensic pathology is the study with the naked eye and -with the microscope of injuries, including missile wounds, trauma -in general. In summary, it is the part of pathology in relation to -the law, violent death being homicide, be it suicide, accidental or -undetermined. It also includes unexplained deaths, sudden deaths, and -poisoning. - -Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to participate in the autopsy of the -late President Kennedy? - -Colonel FINCK. Yes; I did. - -Mr. SPECTER. And are you one of the three coauthors of the autopsy -report which has been previously marked and introduced into evidence -here? - -Colonel FINCK. Yes, I am. - -Mr. SPECTER. Have you had occasion to conduct any experiments on the -effect of missile penetration of the brain reflected in the chart which -you have brought with you here today? - -Colonel FINCK. No, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. Of the skull--let me phrase the question this way: What -does the test which is depicted on the document before you relate to? - -Colonel FINCK. It is based on my observations, not on experiments. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would you pass that to me, sir, so that I may mark that as -a Commission Exhibit, and then I will ask you to identify it, please? - -Mr. Chief Justice, may I mark as Commission Exhibit No. 400 a document? - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be marked. - -(The document was marked Commission Exhibit No. 400 for identification.) - -Mr. SPECTER. I will ask Doctor Finck to describe it for us, please. - -Colonel FINCK. This is a scheme which I prepared before the 22d of -November. It is a teaching scheme, but it applies to the case in -discussion. It will be of help in understanding how I could identify -the entrance and the exit by examination of bone. "A" represents the -bony portion of the skull. "B" represents the cavity of the head, the -cranial cavity. "C" represents the entrance and "D" represents the -exit. The arrows indicate the missile path. - -This scheme is based upon observation of through and through wounds of -bone, and the same differences apply to a pane of glass. The surface -struck first by the missile in relation to the surface struck next -by the missile, this one, shows a smaller diameter, which means that -if you look at the route of entrance in this case here, C, from the -outside you will not see a crater. If you examine it from the inside, -you will see a crater corresponding to the bevelling, coning, shelving, -previously described by Commander Humes. - -In the case we are discussing today, it was possible to have enough -curvature and enough portion of the crater to identify positively the -wound of entrance at the site of the bone. - -Mr. SPECTER. Relating then your evaluation of the situation with -respect to President Kennedy, and turning to Commission Exhibit No. -388, what is your opinion as to whether point A is a wound of entrance -or exit? - -Colonel FINCK. My opinion as regards Exhibit 388, letter A, is that -this wound is the wound of entrance. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what are the characteristics of that wound which lead -you to that conclusion? - -Colonel FINCK. The characteristics were that seen from the inside of -the skull, I could see a beveling in the bone, a beveling that could -not be seen when the wound was seen from outside the skull. - -Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other individual characteristics that led -you to conclude A was the wound of entrance? - -Colonel FINCK. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you present when the three pieces of scalp were -reconstructed to form the major portion of the absent part of President -Kennedy's skull which Doctor Humes described? - -Colonel FINCK. I was present when several portions of bone were brought. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what did you observe, if anything, as to a -reconstructed hole from those three portions of skull? - -Colonel FINCK. May I refer to my scheme? - -Mr. SPECTER. Please do. - -Colonel FINCK. For the sake of demonstration. - -Mr. SPECTER. Fine. - -Colonel FINCK. At the level of the wound of exit, E, in my scheme, -Commission Exhibit No. 400, when viewed from the inside of the skull, -there was no crater, whereas when the wound is seen from the outside of -the skull, there was beveling, cratering, or coning--this is possible -to determine an exit even if only a portion of the bone is submitted, -for the reason that if there was enough bone submitted, there is enough -curvature to identify the inside and outside of the skull. Therefore -the fragment, to give you an example, this portion at the level of the -wound of exit can be oriented, and the outer surface of the skull and -the inner surface of the skull may be identified due to the curvature. - -And then you look at the direction of the beveling and you do see the -beveling when looking from the outside and you can identify an exit -wound. And that is what I did, and now I am referring to the actual -case in discussion, Commission Exhibit 388. - -Mr. SPECTER. That is B? - -Colonel FINCK. Letter B. We will see portions of bone in this general -area, the large wound in the bone on the right side of the skull of -President Kennedy. I had enough curvature to identify outside of -the skull, and inside of the skull, as the first step to orient the -specimen, and then I could determine the location of the beveling, and -I could therefore say that B, Commission Exhibit 388, is a wound of -exit. - -Mr. SPECTER. Based on your observations and conclusions, was President -Kennedy shot from the front, rear, side or what? - -Colonel FINCK. President Kennedy was, in my opinion, shot from the -rear. The bullet entered in the back of the head and went out on -the right side of his skull, producing a large wound, the greatest -dimension of which was approximately 13 centimeters. - -Mr. SPECTER. And as to angle, was he shot from below, from level, from -above, or what, in your opinion? - -Colonel FINCK. In my opinion, the angle can be determined only -approximately due to the fact that the wound of entrance is fairly -small and could give enough precision in the determination of the path, -but the dimension of the wound of exit, letter B of Exhibit 388, is so -large that we can only give an approximate angle. In my opinion, the -angle was within 45 degrees from the horizontal plane. - -Mr. SPECTER. Is that to say that there was a 45-degree angle of -declination from the point of origin to the point of impact, from the -point of origin of the bullet where the bullet came from a gun until -the point where it struck President Kennedy? - -The CHAIRMAN. In other words, you mean was he shot from above or below. - -Mr. SPECTER. Yes. - -Colonel FINCK. I think I can only state, sir, that he was shot from -above and behind. - -Mr. SPECTER. At this time I move for admission into evidence Exhibit -400, Mr. Chief Justice. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The document was marked Commission Exhibit No. 400 for identification, -and was received in evidence.) - -Mr. SPECTER. As to Exhibit 385, Dr. Finck, was point C a point of entry -or a point of exit, in your opinion? - -Colonel FINCK. In my opinion point C of Commission's Exhibit 385 is a -wound of entrance. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what is the basis for that conclusion? - -Colonel FINCK. The basis for that conclusion is that this wound was -relatively small with clean edges. It was not a jagged wound, and that -is what we see in wound of entrance at a long range. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were you present here today and did you hear the entire -testimony of Doctor Humes? - -Colonel FINCK. Yes; I did. - -Mr. SPECTER. And do you concur in Dr. Humes' statements and opinions -regarding the point of entry C, point of exit D, and general angle on -the flight of the missile? - -Colonel FINCK. I certainly do. - -Mr. SPECTER. Then from what direction was President Kennedy shot on -entry point C? - -Colonel FINCK. From behind and above. - -Mr. SPECTER. Were the bullets used dumdum bullets, in your opinion, Dr. -Finck? - -Colonel FINCK. In what wound, sir? - -Mr. SPECTER. Well, start with the head wound, or the back wound, either -one. - -Colonel FINCK. In all the wounds considered, on the basis of the aspect -of the wound of entrance, dumdum bullets were not used. - -Mr. SPECTER. And what characteristics of dumdum bullets were absent, in -your opinion--in your evaluation of these wounds? - -Colonel FINCK. I would expect more jagged, more irregular and larger -wounds of entrance than described in this case. - -Representative FORD. With a dumdum bullet? - -Colonel FINCK. With a dumdum bullet. - -Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the question of likelihood of Governor -Connally having been wounded in the back and chest with the same bullet -which passed through President Kennedy in 385, what reduction would -there be, if any, in the velocity, considering the relative positions -of the two men in the automobile as reflected in photograph, Exhibit -398? - -Colonel FINCK. Of course, to reach precise figures we would need -experiments and similar circumstances with the same type ammunition at -the same distance through two human cadavers, which I did not do. - -On the basis that if we assume that this is one bullet going through -President Kennedy's body and also through Governor Connally's body, the -reduction of velocity would be of some extent after passing through -President Kennedy's body, but not having hit bones, the reduction -in velocity, after going through President Kennedy's body, would be -minimal. - -Mr. SPECTER. Would there be sufficient force then to inflict the wound -which Dr. Humes described from the Parkland Hospital records as having -been inflicted on Governor Connally's back and chest? - -Colonel FINCK. There would be enough energy to go through the body of -the Governor. - -Mr. SPECTER. In expressing your opinion on that subject, Doctor -Finck, have you taken into account the assumptions on distance, that -we are dealing here with a weapon that has a muzzle velocity in the -neighborhood of slightly in excess of 2,000, and that the vehicle -carrying these two individuals was approximately 150, about 150 feet -away from the site of origin of the missile? - -Colonel FINCK. At this range, a bullet of this velocity loses very -little velocity, and keeps upon impact a large amount of kinetic energy. - -Mr. SPECTER. You heard the whole of Doctor Humes' testimony, did you -not? - -Colonel FINCK. Yes; I did. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything that you would like to add to what he -said? - -Colonel FINCK. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Or would you like to modify his testimony in any way? - -Colonel FINCK. No. - -Mr. SPECTER. Do you subscribe to the observations and procedures which -he outlined during the course of his testimony? - -Colonel FINCK. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. As having been conducted on President Kennedy? - -Colonel FINCK. I do. - -Mr. SPECTER. And do you share the opinions which he expressed in their -entirety in the course of his testimony here today? - -Colonel FINCK. I do. - -The CHAIRMAN. You might be seated, Colonel. - -Mr. McCLOY. Just as truthful seated as standing. - -Representative FORD. How many cases did you investigate to develop this -theory shown by Commission Exhibit 400? - -Colonel FINCK. Among the more than 400 cases I have reviewed, several -of them--I cannot give you an exact figure, I do not tabulate them, but -many of them had through and through wounds of the skull as well as of -flat bones, as, for instance, the sternum, the bone we have in front of -our chest, and this would apply also to a through and through wound of -the sternum. I have cases like that. - -There was a specific case in which I was able to identify the entrance -at the level of the sternum on the same basis as the criteria I have -given for the skull. Whenever a bullet goes through a flat bone, it -will produce that beveling, that cratering, shelving, and that I have -seen in numerous cases. - -Representative FORD. Is this a generally accepted theory in the medical -profession? - -Colonel FINCK. Yes, sir; it is. Am I allowed to quote a standard -textbook? - -The CHAIRMAN. You may; yes sir. - -Colonel FINCK. The textbook of legal medicine, pathology and toxicology -by Gonzalez, Vance, Halpern and Umberger does not give a scheme like I -have shown to you today, but describes similar criteria. - -As you know, one of the authors of the book I mentioned is still chief -medical examiner of New York City, with 20,000 medical-examiner cases a -year. - -Mr. SPECTER. Doctor Finck, after the path C-D described in No. 385, -would that be a straight line starting with the weapon itself, or was -that line deviated in any way or altered when it passed through the -body of President Kennedy? - -Colonel FINCK. For practical purposes line C-D is a straight line with -little or no deviation, the bullet not having hit bony structures. - -Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Finck, have you had an opportunity to examine -Commission's Exhibit 399? - -Colonel FINCK. For the first time this afternoon, sir. - -Mr. SPECTER. And based upon your examination of that bullet, do you -have an opinion as to whether in its current condition it could have -passed through President Kennedy at point C-D in 385 and then inflicted -the wound in the back and chest of Governor Connally? - -Colonel FINCK. Yes; I do. This is a bullet showing marks indicating the -bullet was fired. The second point is that there was practically no -loss of this bullet. It kept its original caliber and dimensions. There -was no evidence that any major portion of the jacket was lost, and I -consider this as one bullet which possibly could have gone through the -wounds you described. - -Mr. SPECTER. And could that bullet possibly have gone through President -Kennedy in 388? - -Colonel FINCK. Through President Kennedy's head? 388? - -Mr. SPECTER. And remained intact in the way you see it now? - -Colonel FINCK. Definitely not. - -Mr. SPECTER. And could it have been the bullet which inflicted the -wound on Governor Connally's right wrist? - -Colonel FINCK. No; for the reason that there are too many fragments -described in that wrist. - -Mr. SPECTER. And is the condition of Exhibit 399 consistent with the -type of a wound which Doctor Humes described on Governor Connally's rib? - -Colonel FINCK. Yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. I have a question. - -The CHAIRMAN. Go right ahead. - -Mr. McCLOY. From your examination of Exhibit 399, can you identify the -caliber of that bullet? - -Colonel FINCK. The caliber of this bullet, if I could measure it, but I -cannot touch it. - -The CHAIRMAN. We can. - -Colonel FINCK. I would say it is consistent with a 6.5 mm. - -Mr. McCLOY. Are you familiar with the Mannlicher 6.5 rifle? - -Colonel FINCK. I am familiar with the caliber 6.5. I can draw the -calibers for you on the blackboard. - -Mr. McCLOY. What is the initial velocity of a 6.5 mm. bullet of that -character? - -Colonel FINCK. Of the order of 2,000 feet per second. - -Mr. McCLOY. And you say there would not be a substantial diminution of -that velocity either at the point of impact or at the point of exit? - -Colonel FINCK. That is correct. - -Mr. SPECTER. One more question, Mr. Chief Justice. - -On 388, point A to B, what is your view, Dr. Finck, as to whether or -not that is represented by a straight line going back to the point of -origin of the weapon? - -Colonel FINCK. The difficulty in interpreting the path in line A-B of -Commission's Exhibit 388 is that, one, there is, as stated before, a -large wound of exit, and, two, there is a secondary path as indicated -by the fragments recovered. So we can have an assumption and state -that the general direction, the general path, the general angle of -this missile was from behind and above, and that the bullet, markedly -fragmented, went out of the President's head on the right side, but -that a portion of this bullet which badly fragmented was recovered -within the skull. - -Mr. SPECTER. In view of the impact on the skull at point A, it is -unlikely to be a straight line to B all the way back to the muzzle of -the weapon as it is, say, in 385 C-D, all the way back to the muzzle of -the gun. - -Colonel FINCK. In C-D, Commission's Exhibit 385, due to the fact that -there was no fragmentation, I can say that it is a straight line from -behind and above, whereas here, due to the fragmentation and to the -dual path, I can't give a precise angle, but I can say that the injury -is consistent with a wound produced by one bullet producing many -fragments. - -The CHAIRMAN. Senator, have you any questions you want to ask? - -Mr. McCLOY. May I ask one? - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes; go right ahead. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you examine any of the fragments which were removed -from the President's skull? - -Colonel FINCK. I only saw one fragment shown to me when I arrived at -Bethesda, and it was an elongated black metallic fragment, and that -is the only one I saw to my recollection. I was told that it had been -removed from the brain of President Kennedy in the anterior portion of -his head. - -Mr. McCLOY. From that bullet, that fragment, could you determine, was -it sufficiently large to determine from the ballistic evidence the -caliber of the bullet? - -Colonel FINCK. No, sir; for the reason that to determine the caliber -you need the entire bullet, or at least an entire portion. You need a -portion of the bullet showing the entire diameter, and I was not shown -that. I was shown a fragment which represented a very small portion of -the original bullet. Therefore, at that time I could not say anything -on the possible original caliber. - -Mr. McCLOY. You examined no fragment which did contain those -characteristics? - -Colonel FINCK. No, sir; I did not see any entire bullet or bullet -showing the entire diameter. - -The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford? - -Representative FORD. I believe you testified, Colonel, that you -concurred in the previous testimony by Commander Humes and Commander -Boswell, and that you were one of the co-authors of the autopsy. At any -time during this process where you were conducting the autopsy, was -there any disagreement between any one of you three, any difference of -opinion as to anything involved in the autopsy? - -Colonel FINCK. No, sir. - -Representative FORD. There has been complete unanimity on what you saw, -what you did, and what you have reported? - -Colonel FINCK. Yes, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cooper? - -Senator COOPER. Colonel, I would like for you to look at Exhibit 388 -and at the possible trajectory of the bullet which entered President -Kennedy's head at A and then mark it as a possible point of exit by -"out". You remember there was testimony about a portion of the bullet -from point A to the place on the diagram marked "fragment" where a -fragment was found. I would like to ask if it is possible that the -trajectory of the bullet, from the point of origin, could have been A -to this point marked "fragment" as well as from A to the place marked -"out"? - -Colonel FINCK. I don't think so, sir. - -Senator COOPER. Why? Would you explain that answer? - -Colonel FINCK. I would think that I would consider the midportion of -this exit would labeled B, Exhibit 388, as the wound produced by most -of the fragments and the major portions of the fragmenting bullet. -This is only a small portion of it which makes me say that this is a -secondary path. - -Senator COOPER. What was the size of the fragment relative to the size -of the missile of the 6.5 Mannlicher, fired from the 6.5 Mannlicher -rifle? - -Colonel FINCK. Approximately one-tenth, or even less. - -Representative FORD. From your numerous case studies, is it typical -for a bullet, for a missile in this circumstance as shown in 388, to -fragment to the degree that this one apparently did? - -Colonel FINCK. Yes, it is quite common to find a wound of exit much -larger than the wound of entrance for weapons commonly used. - -Representative FORD. But is it typical for the missile to fragment to -the degree that this one did as shown in Exhibit 388? - -Colonel FINCK. Yes; it is. - -Representative FORD. Is it typical to find only a limited number of -fragments as you apparently did in this case? - -Colonel FINCK. This depends to a great extent on the type of ammunition -used. There are many types of bullets, jacketed, not-jacketed, pointed, -hollow-nosed, hollow-points, flat-nose, round-nose, all these different -shapes will have a different influence on the pattern of the wound and -the degree of fragmentation. - -Representative FORD. That is all. - -The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Colonel, very much for your help. - -Colonel FINCK. You are welcome, sir. - -Representative FORD. May I ask just one question? - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes; Colonel, we would like to ask just one more question. - -Representative FORD. Do these two wounds represent the same or a -different kind of bullet? - -Colonel FINCK. You are referring to one wound and this other wound here? - -Representative FORD. I am referring to the wound shown in Exhibit 388 -identified as point of entry A, and wound in Exhibit 385 identified as -C. - -Colonel FINCK. Due to the difference in the nature of the tissue, -difference in the nature of the target, it is perfectly possible that -these two wounds came from the same type of bullet, that one hit bony -structures and the other one did not, and that explains the differences -between the patterns of these two wounds. - -Representative FORD. Why one fragmented and one did not. - -Colonel FINCK. Yes. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, again thank you very much. - -(Whereupon, at 3:45 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -_Wednesday, March 18, 1964_ - -TESTIMONY OF MICHAEL R. PAINE AND RUTH HYDE PAINE - -The President's Commission met at 9 a.m. on March 18, 1964, at 200 -Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. - -Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman -Cooper, Representative Gerald R. Ford, John J. McCloy, and Allen W. -Dulles, members. - -Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel, Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel; Dr. Alfred -Goldberg, historian; and Charles Murray, observer. - - -TESTIMONY OF MICHAEL R. PAINE - -The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. - -Mr. Paine, I will just read a brief statement concerning the purpose of -the meeting today which is our practice. - -The purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of Mr. and Mrs. -Michael R. Paine. The Commission has been advised that Mr. and Mrs. -Paine made the acquaintance of the Oswalds during 1963, and that Mrs. -Marina Oswald lived in the Paine home from late September 1963 up to -the time of the assassination. - -Since the Commission is inquiring fully into the background and -possible motive of Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged assassin, it intends -to ask the above witnesses questions concerning Mr. Oswald, his -associations and relations with others, as well as questions concerning -any and all matters relating to the assassination. - -You have been furnished a copy of this, have you not? - -Mr. PAINE. I have seen something to that effect. - -The CHAIRMAN. You have seen it. - -Very well, will you rise and raise your right hand, please. Do you -solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission will be -the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. PAINE. I do. - -The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated; Mr. Liebeler will propound the -questions to you. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your name, please? - -Mr. PAINE. Michael R. Paine. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And your address? - -Mr. PAINE. 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born, Mr. Paine? - -Mr. PAINE. June 25, 1928. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where? - -Mr. PAINE. New York City. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly your educational background, -where you attended schools? - -Mr. PAINE. I went to school, high school in New York, went to 2 years -of Harvard and a year of Swarthmore, I have not finished college. - -Mr. DULLES. What class would you have been in Swarthmore? - -Mr. PAINE. 1953. - -Mr. DULLES. You would have been 1953 if you finished or did you finish? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I did not. - -Mr. DULLES. Excuse me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are presently married, are you not? - -Mr. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your wife's name is? - -Mr. PAINE. Ruth Hyde Paine. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have two children? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us who your parents are. - -Mr. PAINE. Lyman Paine is my father and Ruth Forbes Paine Young, or -Young is her present name. Mrs. Arthur Young now. She is my mother. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where is your father living at the present time? - -Mr. PAINE. He is in Los Angeles. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your mother? - -Mr. PAINE. Philadelphia. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any brothers and sisters? - -Mr. PAINE. I have a brother in Baltimore. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is his name? - -Mr. PAINE. Cameron Paine. - -Mr. LIEBELER. By whom are you presently employed? - -Mr. PAINE. Bell Helicopter, Fort Worth. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have a security clearance in connection with your -work at Bell Helicopter? - -Mr. PAINE. I suppose it is. I don't happen to know what the -classification is. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you work prior to working for Bell Helicopter? - -Mr. PAINE. I worked in Pennsylvania for Arthur Young. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was the nature of your employment with Mr. Young? - -Mr. PAINE. I had set up a shop in his barn and started work for myself -and then he employed me making models, helicopter models for himself. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately at what time, what period of time did you -work for Mr. Young? - -Mr. PAINE. That is very difficult to say. I began more or less -gradually first. I was doing other things. I am very vague about the -dates. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the year approximately? - -Mr. PAINE. I suppose I went to work at Bell in 1958. I have been there -4-1/2 years. - -Mr. DULLES. Is this Mr. Young your stepfather? - -Mr. PAINE. That is right - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you worked for him immediately prior to your going to -Bell Helicopter? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to working for Mr. Young, did you have any other -employment? - -Mr. PAINE. I think I came from the Army. Before that I worked at Bartol -Research Foundation in Swarthmore. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were going to tell us what that was. - -Mr. PAINE. That was mostly a job of setting up a laboratory to--was -nuclear research laboratory, Van Der Graaf generators it had there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was the nature of your work with Bartol? - -Mr. PAINE. Mostly all the work in making those machines, setting those -machines so they would run; making counters, coincidence counters, -instrumentation to operate the machine. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you work for Bartol? - -Mr. PAINE. That was just about a year, I believe. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to that did you have any other employment? - -Mr. PAINE. No, that was Swarthmore. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever work for the Griswold Manufacturing Co. - -Mr. PAINE. Oh, I did; yes. That was after--well, after the Army. I -think it was only a few months, I don't remember when it fitted in. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was the nature of your work with that company? - -Mr. PAINE. That was very boring. It was engraving precision scales. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You worked in the actual engraving of the scales? - -Mr. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What is the nature of your work with Bell Helicopter at -the present time? - -Mr. PAINE. I am called a research engineer. I work in a lab and design -and build and test models of new concepts of helicopter configurations. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been engaged in that type of work for Bell -throughout the entire time you have been employed by them? - -Mr. PAINE. I have been in the research laboratory research group that -long. It has all been problems---- - -Mr. DULLES. Are you a helicopter pilot by any chance yourself? - -Mr. PAINE. I am an airplane pilot. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But your work basically for Bell has been in the research -of design and operation of helicopters? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances under which you met -your wife and subsequently married her? - -Mr. PAINE. I met her at a folk dance party, folk dance meeting, and I -had known her for about 2 years before we married. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you meet her approximately? - -Mr. PAINE. We were married, I think, in 1958, it was the end of the -year so maybe it was 1957. What was the question again? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when you met her. - -Mr. PAINE. Two years before that would be, 1957. - -Mr. LIEBELER. 1956 or 1957. - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. We understand that you are a Quaker, Mr. Paine, is that -correct? - -Mr. PAINE. That is not quite correct. - -When I was in Philadelphia, I sang in various churches, and Ruth being -a Quaker, started going to Quaker meetings. Had I remained there I -would have become a Quaker. Moving to Texas there was a very small -Quaker community, and I joined the Unitarian Church after a while. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first become interested in the Quaker -religion; was it about the time you met your wife or was it before that. - -Mr. PAINE. No; I think she was instrumental in bringing me into that -circle. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Give us a brief description of the outside interests that -you and your wife and that your wife had during the time subsequent to -your meeting and until the time you left Philadelphia. Was she active -in church activities? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I wouldn't say so. She was active in the Young Friends -Committee of North America which was making an effort to bring a group -of Russians on tour of this country. It was in the first flush or -enthusiasm of East-West contacts, and after a couple of years they did -succeed in bringing those Russians on tour. That was the beginning of -her interest in Russian, learning the Russian language. I think that -was her only activity that I am aware of or remember right now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether your wife engaged in a writing -campaign or a pen pal campaign between people in the United States and -people in the Soviet Union? - -Mr. PAINE. That was another part of this East-West contacts committee's -duties or tasks they took upon themselves and I think she was chairman, -accepted the chairmanship of that committee. - -For a while, it was almost moribund, very inactive. - -Mr. DULLES. Which committee was that, the committee to stimulate -letters between Russia and the United States? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; to find names and addresses on each side to connect -people together. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you yourself ever take part in any activity of that -group? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You spoke of the East-West contacts committee as being -active in trying to bring a group of Russians to the United States. Did -they engage in any activities other than this attempt to bring Russians -to the United States that you know of? - -Mr. PAINE. That is the only one I know of, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did they succeed in bringing some Russians to the United -States? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; they did. They brought three Russians, and then the -Russians reciprocated by taking a group of Quakers who knew Russian on -a tour of Russia. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you married to Ruth Hyde Paine at the time these -Russian people came to the United States under the auspices of the -East-West contacts committee? - -Mr. PAINE. I might have been; I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether she actively participated in the -program to bring the Russians to the United States? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, she participated insofar as going to the meetings. I -don't believe she did most of the writing to the State Department and -what-not to try to arrange clearances and itineraries and things like -that, but she was at the meetings at which those things were discussed. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever discuss them with you in any detail? - -Mr. PAINE. We, I would often--I went to several of those meetings -myself. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the names of any of the Russians who came to -the United States in connection with this program? - -Mr. PAINE. I might recognize them if I saw them again, but right now -the names have escaped me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You say there were just three of them? - -Mr. PAINE. I think there were three; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you a member of the American Civil Liberties Union? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you become a member of that organization? - -Mr. PAINE. I suppose you become a member as soon as you contribute -money, and I may have contributed money a good many years back. I -didn't start going to a meeting of the organization until I was--I have -only been to about four perhaps, in Dallas, four meetings. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is Dallas the only place you have attended meetings of -the ACLU? - -Mr. PAINE. To my knowledge. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you acquainted with an organization known as the -Friends Peace Committee? - -Mr. PAINE. It is a familiar name. I guess not, though. I don't think I -have been to a meeting of theirs. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know if it is connected in any way with the Young -Friends Committee of North America. - -Mr. PAINE. I take it to be a Friend, you know, a Quaker committee but I -believe it is connected. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a gentleman by the name of Dennis Jamison, -who I believe is active in the Friends Peace Committee? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't think so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Or George Lakey? - -Mr. PAINE. For practical purposes; no. The names seem a little familiar -but I can't place them. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of the connection in which -it is familiar to you? - -Mr. PAINE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with the Committee for Non-Violent -Action? - -Mr. PAINE. Many of these things sound familiar. I don't--I really am -saying no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you a member or have you ever attended any meetings -of the John Birch Society? - -Mr. PAINE. I am not a member. I have been to one or, I guess chiefly -one meeting of theirs. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where was that? - -Mr. PAINE. That was in Dallas? - -Mr. LIEBELER. When? - -Mr. PAINE. That was the night Stevenson spoke in Dallas. - -The CHAIRMAN. When? - -Mr. PAINE. The night Stevenson spoke in Dallas, U.N. Day. - -Representative FORD. Was that 1963? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances of your attendance at -that meeting and what happened? - -Mr. PAINE. I had been seeking to go to a Birch meeting for some time, -and then I was invited on this night so I went. It was an introductory -meeting. - -Mr. DULLES. On the 9th of November? - -Mr. PAINE. It was November something, I don't know what, a Wednesday or -Thursday night. - -Mr. LIEBELER. For the record I think the record should indicate that -Mr. Stevenson was in Dallas on or about October 24, 1963. Who invited -you to this meeting? - -Mr. PAINE. I had tried once before to go to a meeting which didn't -occur. There happens to be a member of our choir, a paid soloist who is -a John Birch advocate so I have been applying--so I have been telling -her, that I wanted to go. I suppose, I don't remember for certain but I -suppose she was the one who told me where and when. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did this meeting have anything to do with the activity -that occurred at Mr. Stevenson's meeting in Dallas? - -Mr. PAINE. No. You see they were taking place at the same time. It was -rather sparsely attended, most of them were down spitting on Stevenson. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The Birch meeting which you were down to was sparsely -attended? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Representative FORD. Was this an evening meeting or afternoon? - -Mr. PAINE. This is evening. - -Representative FORD. Evening. - -Mr. DULLES. May I ask, did you go out of curiosity rather than sympathy -or rather how did you happen to go? - -Mr. PAINE. I am not in sympathy. - -Mr. DULLES. So I gathered. - -Mr. PAINE. I have been to a number of rightist meetings and seminars in -Texas. I was interested in seeing more communication between the right -and the left; there isn't much liberal out there and so I wanted to be -able to speak their language and know that their fears--and be familiar -with their feelings and attitudes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any discussion at this meeting as far as you -can recall of Mr. Stevenson's appearance in Dallas? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I don't believe there was any. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any discussion of the policy of the Kennedy -administration? - -Mr. PAINE. There was no discussion at that meeting. It was a 2- or -3-hour lecture on a movie by Welch, and then a young man gave a few -more explanations about the organization. It was mostly an introductory -meeting. I think for newcomers. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Telling them about the John Birch Society itself? - -Mr. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Welch was not there, was he? - -Mr. PAINE. No; he was not. - -Representative FORD. Was this a movie in which he participated? - -Mr. PAINE. He was the speaker at a lectern in this movie. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any knowledge of the political attitudes or -activities of your father, George Lyman Paine? - -Mr. PAINE. I have very little specific knowledge of what he does. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us what you do know about your father's -political activities? - -Mr. PAINE. I have seen my father rather rarely. Since I have been in -Texas, I have seen him more frequently. I think I have been out there -three times now in the last 5 years. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you say out there--you mean Los Angeles? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; I have seen him twice. He was out to Texas. I have been -to Los Angeles twice, and he came at least once to Dallas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Please fix the time when you went to Los Angeles? - -Mr. PAINE. Last summer, 2 weeks in August or something. I was there for -3 days, the first, the middle of August. - -I would guess it was about 2 years before that that I had been there. -I could be off by a year both ways. I can't even remember whether he -came--I think he probably interspersed his visit between mine. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall that he visited Irving on two different -occasions, once in Christmas, 1962? - -Mr. PAINE. One was a Christmas party, that is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And once in the summer of 1961. - -Mr. PAINE. I don't remember '61. I do remember pictures now, we have -pictures showing us outside so that was balmy weather. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So that in the period that you have been living in Texas -you have gone to Los Angeles on two different occasions and visited -your father there and he has been in Irving on two different occasions, -is that correct? - -Mr. PAINE. That seems, I think, to be right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you go on and tell us what you know about your -father's political activities? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Well, we would have to go back to a little to when I lived in New York -as a school student in school, grammar school and high school. There I -would see him very infrequently considering our close proximity and the -fact that I found him stimulating and I liked him. - -He took me to a few, one or possibly two, Communist meetings at my -considerable insistence. He didn't urge this upon me. I wanted to go, -to get the feeling of the--I asked him what he did or something and I -wanted to know all this, my mother said he was on the radical left. - -So, I went to a few of those meetings, and didn't--was unfamiliar -with the issues and questions they were debating. I got the feeling, -I came away with the impression, that these people, there were three -Communist groups apparently in New York at the time, and they were most -up in arms with each other, or there---- - -Mr. DULLES. Excuse me, how old were you at this time approximately? - -Mr. PAINE. This was somewhere from eighth grade to high school. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. - -Representative FORD. What year about, what time span would that be? - -Mr. PAINE. Well 1947, I think I got out of high school, so it is 1943 -to 1947. - -Then I didn't--I got the flavor of those meetings. I found sort of an -intense people, people of high intensity. I didn't feel very much at -home there, and I guess I didn't go to any more. - -Mr. DULLES. Did they try to recruit you at all or to get you to be a -member or attend or join meetings? - -Mr. PAINE. No; they were glad to meet Lyman's son. That is he would -introduce me to friends or people he knew there, and I liked--I had -some favorable attitudes to the zeal of the group or the zeal of the -assembled people. - -They were fully committed to what they believed in. I had my own dreams -of how I would like to see society at the time and it wasn't along the -same line. - -So, I felt happy to have them there and I would go my course and -just--I didn't feel opposed to them; neither did I feel drawn to them, -although I tried to read some of Das Kapital at that time and Communist -manifesto. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever join any of these organizations? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, I didn't know of any organization as such. - -I went to this meeting in downtown New York. I didn't know--so -therefore I knew three groups. Maybe it was the Socialist group and the -Stalinist group and I think the group that Lyman was in, I don't know, -maybe he was a Socialist. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Which was the second group, was it the Stalinist? - -Mr. PAINE. I mentioned the Stalinist, Dubinsky, David Dubinsky, was the -only name I remember aside from Stalin, was a name I remember there, -and I can't now remember whose side who was on. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any clear recollection of what particular -group your father was associated with? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I never had--never knew what the name of any group he -might be associated with. - -Now, I suppose it was Trotsky. Trotskyite was a different distinct -group at that time. They probably wouldn't be mentioning their own -group. They would be mentioning their opponent's group. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Subsequent to your attendance at the meetings of these -groups at the time you have spoken of did you ever attend any other -meetings of similar groups either in New York or any other place? - -Mr. PAINE. I can't remember anything of a similar nature. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know of your father ever using any aliases? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I don't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are not familiar with the name Thomas L. Brown or -Lyman Pierce? - -Mr. PAINE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When was the---- - -Mr. PAINE. I was aware that my father didn't talk readily about his -affairs. When we met we would talk at great length and we always do -talk. There is an amazing similarity in our natures. I have almost -thought there was one person trying to live in two bodies. - -But we have always been completely absorbed in subjects that were -closer to my--without going into what he was doing day to day or what -he was--I was aware that I didn't know, and I didn't pry or probe as to -what he might be doing there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So far as you know, however, he was actively -participating in the meetings and activities of this group? - -Mr. PAINE. Oh, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that your father and mother -were divorced when you were about 4 years old? - -Mr. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were at that time living in New York City? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Subsequently you and your mother. - -Mr. PAINE. She got a divorce in Reno, Nev., she had a house in Virginia -City. - -The CHAIRMAN. In New York you were living with your father or mother? - -Mr. PAINE. They lived together in New York. Then there was a year, a -part of a year, we moved to Philadelphia. They may have separated and -he tried to come back or something like that, and then we went to Reno, -Nev. - -Mr. LIEBELER. During the time you lived in Philadelphia, was your -father living with the family? - -Mr. PAINE. I think he was there part time. I don't remember that for -sure. We had two houses there. One I think I remember him slightly and -the other one I don't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your father was not present during the time that you -stayed in Nevada? - -Mr. PAINE. No; he was not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You and your brother stayed in Nevada with your mother? - -Mr. PAINE. And a housekeeper also. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After you left Nevada where did you live? - -Mr. PAINE. We went over to California. Santa Barbara. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who lived there at that time with you? - -Mr. PAINE. A friend of hers, Kathleen, now she was originally Kathleen -Schroeder, a sister of my uncle, now Kathleen Forbes, and a distant -cousin of my mother's, and I think my grandfather, grandparents, would -come out occasionally. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was your father present at that time? - -Mr. PAINE. No; he was not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He wasn't there at any time during your stay in Santa -Barbara? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't remember that. I am not certain of it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you live in Santa Barbara, Calif.? - -Mr. PAINE. Each year my grandfather paid our way back across the -country to Naushon Island in Massachusetts. We lived there 3 years. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go after that? - -Mr. PAINE. Cambridge, Mass. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you there? - -Mr. PAINE. From the third to the sixth grade. - -Mr. LIEBELER. With whom did you live? - -Mr. PAINE. With my mother on Fairweather Street. - -The CHAIRMAN. Is this of particular importance to the investigation, it -is very lengthy, and I don't know particularly what it bears upon. If -it is in relation with his father, let's get at that and get it over -with, but I don't see what this man's history from the time he was -born--I don't see how it bears on it. It just takes altogether too much -time for an extraneous purpose, it seems to me. Let's get on with the -thing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It bears on the point only on what connection he has with -his father. - -Mr. PAINE. Let me go to that. I have seen him on a few times, once a -year would be a frequent--we felt great affinity in our bent, not in -the actual application of the way we would like to do things but in a -concern for the value of people. I know very little about what he does, -and he has not tried to proselytize me, and he has not volunteered -information about what he did. - -I think a certain change has come over him since. For many years or -years in college or something I thought he was still interested in his -revolutionary groups and that was a pity because that wasn't going to -happen, and it was to be a dead end, a blind, he would come to the end -of his life and his cause had fizzled out. - -When I went out to California more recently, the last time we were -talking about the civil rights movement and, shall we say, the -revolution occurring in this country spearheaded by the Negroes' -demand for dignity, that was a subject that completely absorbed the -weekend and there were various Negroes who came around the country, who -happened to pass through at that time. - -You probably might be interested in regard to Cuba. I was surprised -sometime in the conversation someone there had spoken favorably of the -revolution in Cuba. This was a surprise to me, I didn't realize that -this was part of the--was the present thrill, shall we say. I don't -know whether that applied to Lyman also or whether--I think he went -along with that. We didn't get around to arguing on that point. I only -mention that in passing. That was about the full extent of it. - -She mentioned Cuba in this favorable way, and it was a subject I -didn't---- - -Mr. DULLES. Who was this she? - -Mr. PAINE. It was Grace somebody, I have forgotten. - -Mr. DULLES. One of the people present in these conversations? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. So that was my only knowledge that he was, or the -people around him were, interested in Cuba, and that is the only thing -I can see has any bearing in your interest here. - -Mr. LIEBELER. To what extent would you say that your father has -influenced your own political views and attitudes? - -Mr. PAINE. I would have guessed it was almost negligible. I was aware -that sometime in the beginning of college or something I used the -language of the masses or I used jargon which I recognized, came to -perceive was of quite leftist nature, and I think that at the time I -used to get The Nation, that was in high school. I probably picked it -up more from the magazines and things of that sort than from him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss your father with Lee Oswald? - -Mr. PAINE. On a phone call shortly after the assassination he called -and thought it was outrageous to be pinning Lee Oswald who was a -scapegoat, an ideal person to hang the blame on. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your father called you? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; he called me, yes. He didn't suppose it was true, I -told him I thought it probably was true. And I told him to keep his -shirt on. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything else about that conversation? - -Mr. PAINE. No. It was chiefly both he and Freddy, his wife, had to be -calmed down. They thought it was a steamrollered job of injustice or -something. And I didn't think their admonitions were--I think not to -say anything, not to join the hubbub or jump on the things I said or I -took it to be things I said would be distorted and blown up and added -to the hullabaloo to lynch Lee. - -Representative FORD. Did they infer or imply that the allegations or -accusations against Oswald bore the semblance of a lynching? And I use -lynching in the broad sense. - -Mr. PAINE. They did not use lynching at all. I added that. They thought -he was---- - -Representative FORD. Being railroaded? - -Mr. PAINE. No; he said that no one, no member of the Friends of Cuba -would want to assassinate the President. That was a crazy idea. - -Representative FORD. You said that was a crazy idea? - -Mr. PAINE. No; he said that. Therefore, he concluded, and this was the -same, similar to my feeling, that I first didn't think Oswald had done -it because I didn't see how it fitted in, how it helped his favorite -ideals. - -And Lyman then said the same thing. Therefore, including himself, -Lyman, that Lee couldn't have done it, and that this must be--Lee was -the ideal person to hang it on. - -Representative FORD. How soon was this phone call after the -assassination? - -Mr. PAINE. I think it was--he did not know, I think, that we had Marina -staying with us, but he was one of the first to connect, guess that it -was us. He called and asked us, "Is this you?" - -Representative FORD. "Is this you?" What? I don't quite understand the -context here. - -Mr. PAINE. He heard it on the news and he heard Mrs. Paine, and Marina -had been staying with a Mrs. Paine and he called to ask, "Are you the -Paines?" - -Mr. LIEBELER. Had you discussed Lee Oswald with your father prior to -this time? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I don't think I mentioned him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether your father knew Lee Oswald? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I do not know. Or I gather since he had such a funny -idea of him over the phone. - -Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your judgment the only way your father -heard of Lee Oswald, connected Lee Oswald to you, was through a news -broadcast that he had heard connecting Oswald with somebody named Paine? - -Mr. PAINE. Or Marina had stayed with the Paines. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss your father with Lee Oswald? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I did not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And Oswald never asked you about your father in any way -or did he indicate that he knew of your father? - -Mr. PAINE. No; he did not. I think Ruth came closer to revealing that -my father had--you will have to ask her about that question. I did not -mention my father to Lee. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you meet Lee Oswald? - -Mr. PAINE. I met him sometime in the spring of 1963. - -Mr. DULLES. This is Oswald? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; Lee Oswald. - -Mr. PAINE. We were invited to a party, Ruth and I were invited to a -party, given by Everett Glover. I had a cold and wasn't able to go. -Ruth went at that time and subsequently went once or twice to see -Marina. And she invited Marina and Lee to our house for dinner, and -here the date that comes to mind is April 10. - -Mr. DULLES. Where was Marina staying at this time? - -Mr. PAINE. Berry Street. - -Mr. DULLES. Berry Street in Dallas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Berry Street or would it be Neely Street? - -Mr. PAINE. Neely Street. So this was the first time I saw them. I had -to go over, he didn't drive a car and I had to go over, and pick him -up in my car and bring him back to the house. So I went over to Neely -Street and saw them. Marina took about half an hour to pack all the -things for Junie. Meanwhile I was talking to Lee at their house there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us about that conversation? - -Mr. PAINE. I asked him what he was doing, his job, and he showed me a -picture on the wall, which was a piece of newspaper, I think--that is -beside the point. I asked him about Russia, what he liked about---- - -Mr. DULLES. Could we get that picture? - -Mr. PAINE. I think it was beside the point. It was a piece of newspaper -showing a fashion ad, I think. I think his job was---- - -Mr. DULLES. Nothing to do with politics at all, to do with his job. I -see. - -Mr. PAINE. I asked him what he thought. I wanted to know why he had -gone to Russia and why he had then come back. He had told me he had -become a Marxist in this country without ever having met a Communist, -by reading books and then he got to Russia, and---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he went to Russia? - -Mr. PAINE. He said he wanted to go to Russia. He had chosen to go to -Russia. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't elaborate on it? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I gathered he had had an interest in going to Russia -for a number of years prior to the time he got there and decided that -that was the paradise of the world and through fortunate relations -between this country and Russia at the time, I would have to remember -history to know whether that was a warm, a friendly time or not, but he -indicated both his going and his coming were fortunate times in history -or something that made it possible for him to do these. - -Mr. DULLES. Fortunate times? - -Mr. PAINE. Fortunate times, this was sort of an accident in history. -This is what I gathered from his conversation. - -Representative FORD. Fortunate that he could leave at the time and -fortunate that he could come back. - -Mr. PAINE. Fortunate that he could be accepted to emigrate to Russia. -He told me that he had--so he went to Russia and he tried to surrender -his passport to the Russians but the State Department would not give -it to him, or the consul in Moscow, which was--which proved to be -fortunate because then a few years later when he wanted to return it -would not have been possible, except if they still had his passport. He -had not legally surrendered it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that was a fortunate circumstance? - -Mr. PAINE. I think he smiled, he indicated to me he genuinely had -wanted to become a Russian citizen and to surrender it. He wanted to -renounce his American citizenship. He tried to, and the Russians, he -told me, had accepted his bona fide intentions and tried to get the -passport away from the Americans. - -Representative FORD. Was the failure to get his passport a determining -factor in their not accepting his desires? - -Mr. PAINE. No. He told me that they did accept his desires despite his -inability to get the passport and give it to them. - -Representative FORD. Despite his inability? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. "They" being the Russians? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; they being the Russians and they issued to him, he told -me, the standard kind of temporary citizenship paper which is given to -all emigres to Russia, and there are some---- - -Mr. DULLES. Was it citizenship paper he said or something else, -citizenship paper? - -Mr. PAINE. Now, I suppose there was a regular paper and everybody would -know of it. - -Mr. DULLES. Domicile paper or something allowing domicile. - -Mr. PAINE. I had thought, my impression was, that it was kind of -probationary citizenship. It is a kind of paper issued for a year to -somebody who is seeking citizenship. That was my impression at the time. - -Mr. DULLES. Could it have been a probationary residence permit or -something of that sort. He said citizenship, did he? - -Mr. PAINE. That was my impression. That it was the commencement of a -citizenship paper. - -Mr. DULLES. Did he tell you about any difficulties he had in getting -permission to stay on in Russia? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, this was a question. I asked him how was it they so -readily accepted--you know other Americans have a hard time staying -more than 30 days there, "How was it that you were so readily accepted -into the bosom of Soviet Society?" And to that he answered, "well, it -was just a fortunate mood between the countries or something to that -effect," is something that I gathered. - -I didn't remember the history and I thought it would be--he smiled a -little bit. I can't remember whether he smiled a little bit when I -then asked him how did he manage to get out, at one time, but at one -time I do remember he smiled as though there were a story there, and I -didn't--I supposed the story would be too intricate, not interesting -enough to try to get him to relate it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You did not ask him to relate the story? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I did not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever learn the circumstances under which he left -Russia, from him? - -Mr. PAINE. As he told me at that same half hour before we came back to -our house on Fifth Street,---- - -Mr. DULLES. Was this the first time you had seen him? - -Mr. PAINE. All this happened in the first half hour. - -Mr. DULLES. The first time you had ever seen him? - -Mr. PAINE. The first time I had seen him or at least that first night. - -He told me he had decided, that he had wanted, to come back to this -country and it was through the fortunate circumstance of the Embassy -still having his passport which was a legal loophole that made it -legally possible, and I asked him--at sometime I thought this was -rather nice that the State Department, I think this was a little later -in the same evening, the State Department had forewarned him, had -granted him money also, to come back. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that? - -Mr. PAINE. He told me that and I was rather proud of the State -Department for its generous behavior toward such a wayward citizen. -He actually had spoken--I had mentioned this because he had spoken -abusively of the American Government. - -Mr. LIEBELER. At this time, during the first meeting? - -Mr. PAINE. Not just the American Government--yes; at this same meeting. -He had spoken with abuse of, sort of resentment that they didn't let -him have his passport and I thought, well now, that was just kind of a -nice trick, by having a consular official there that he knew, this man -wanted to change his mind, this little legal dodge of not wanting to -give him his passport which I think is illegal if the man wants it, it -would be the thing to permit him to come back. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you point that out to Lee Oswald? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't think he responded to it. - -Mr. DULLES. He talked about surrendering the passport rather than -surrendering citizenship, did he? - -Mr. PAINE. The two were synonymous, I thought, that if you surrendered -your passport and with the intention of adopting another one that was -renouncing American citizenship. - -Mr. DULLES. I see. - -Mr. PAINE. Which he wanted, he told me he wanted to renounce his -American citizenship. He said that quite flatly. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything else about this conversation -concerning his trip back and his attitude toward the State Department -and the United States that he discussed during this first meeting? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't believe so. I think I have got it a little confused -with Marguerite Oswald what she said at the assassination, at the time -of the night of the 22d. She was resentful of the State Department, -thinking it had been remiss in taking so long in getting him back. I -don't remember whether he had voiced the same--I am confused, I don't -know whether it was he or she who had voiced this resentment. I thought -to the contrary it was very generous. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether or not Oswald himself voiced -resentment against the Government of the United States in this -connection? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; I do remember that. That was the thing that prompted me -to say that it was actually rather nice of them to have been illegal -just for this---- - -Mr. DULLES. I didn't catch the last. Nice of them to have been what? - -Mr. PAINE. I thought it probably was illegal of the embassy official -not to hand over his passport when he demanded it in order to surrender -it to the Soviet Union. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't remember Oswald responding to that when you -made that answer to him? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't remember his response. - -The CHAIRMAN. You also said you thought it was rather nice of the State -Department to do that in order to make it possible for him to return if -he wanted to? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; I said both of these things. They had given him money. -They had held, a peccadillo to hold, the passport out of the knowledge -that he might, such people might, want to return, change their mind, -and then to provide him money moreover to come back, this all seemed -to me rather nice even though it had taken 2 more months than when he -originally wanted to come back. - -I had said, this in response to his, some kind of expression on his -part of criticism of the State Department or the foreign embassy or -whatever it is. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember why he was critical? Was he critical -because they had not given him his passport when he went to Russia -or was he critical because in his opinion they had taken so long to -arrange his return? - -Mr. PAINE. I think he was critical when he first mentioned it, he -seemed to have the critical attitude--some of this critical attitude -may have been facial expressions or way of speaking, which was somewhat -common with him. Therefore, I can't remember for sure whether it was in -the words or in his attitude. He was critical, though, certainly of -the first, of the State Department not relinquishing his passport. - -Mr. DULLES. Was he critical at this latter time? - -Mr. PAINE. He was critical of that as he was relating to his desire -to go to the Soviet Union. He was relating the story to me, and then -he had spoken of the State Department as though they were a bunch of -bastards, wouldn't--or illegal or something. Anyway, he was unfavorable. - -Mr. DULLES. But did you indicate he was rather glad that they had later -taken this position so that he could get his passport back or did I -misunderstand you on that? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, I pointed out to him that or said "it was kind of -fortunate that they had held your passport," and I think he nodded his -assent to that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he decided to return to the United -States from Russia? - -Mr. PAINE. Most of this conversation, I think, was when we had first -met and I wasn't sure whether he was speaking derogatively of the -Soviet Union in order to win my good graces or thinking he could win my -friendship that way. - -However, he spoke more with disfavor of the Soviet Union during this -first meeting than was quite comprehensible to someone who had gone -there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say? - -Mr. PAINE. But chiefly what he said was that he didn't have choice of -where he could live, you were assigned, he spoke with a certain amount -of derision, scorn of the fact that you were assigned jobs, and he -thought the food was boring, I think, to use his word. He had mentioned -that he liked to--he had gone hunting with some friends, that was the -only thing he mentioned about the Soviet Union in which I sensed that -he had been with people except for also mentioning that he had been the -center of interest as an American who couldn't drive a car. - -But apparently he had relished going hunting. He had also said with -resentment, a Soviet citizen could not own a rifle. They could own -shotguns but not a rifle, and that you could shoot a rifle only by -joining a rifle club which he said was a paramilitary organization. - -Again, this was with a degree of scorn in his voice or his attitude. I -had assumed that he at least tried the paramilitary organization, the -rifle club, so he could speak with such scorn, with knowledge of what -he was speaking about. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he had joined an organization in -which he was permitted to shoot a rifle? - -Mr. PAINE. No; he did not. I don't know that for a fact. I had assumed -from his conversation that he had tried it but I gather that he did not -like this organization. - -Mr. DULLES. Did he say anything about having to leave the rifle at the -club, that you couldn't take the rifle away from the club, or anything -of that kind? - -Mr. PAINE. I assume that was true. He didn't mention it, he mentioned -that a Soviet citizen could not possess a rifle. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he speak of any training that he might have received -in connection with either a rifle or a shotgun while he was in the -Soviet Union? - -Mr. PAINE. No; he didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you the degree of facility with which -he used either of these weapons while he was in the Soviet Union? - -Mr. PAINE. No; he did not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He--is there anything else he told you about this hunting -club or this rifle or shotgun that you can remember now? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I am not particularly interested in rifles and hunting -so that I didn't--it was an ideal opportunity--I think he did love -hunting so I think it would have been an ideal way to reach him in a -somewhat human way. - -Mr. DULLES. You got no idea of how much time he was at the rifle club -or what? Did it seem to be a frequent occupation? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I can't say I had any fruitful idea of whether he was -a member of it. I assumed he was a member of it. He didn't say he -was a member of it. I assumed he spoke with authority saying it was -a paramilitary organization and somehow conveying the idea that he -didn't like that aspect of it and, therefore, I assumed he didn't like -it. He spoke only with pleasure of his hunting trip. He mentioned a -hunting trip, I don't think he mentioned them in plural, which he had -taken with some friends. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any more details about that hunting trip? - -Mr. PAINE. We talked, this was within the first half hour, the talk was -very brief. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention to you this hunting trip or anything -relating to a rifle or shotgun in the Soviet Union at any later time? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't know what time he was referring to. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I mean at any other time after the first meeting with you -did he refer again to his activities in the Soviet Union? - -Mr. PAINE. I see. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In connection with this rifle? - -Mr. PAINE. No; that subject never came up again. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you at this first meeting about his work in -the Soviet Union? - -Mr. PAINE. I had gathered he worked somewhere in a television factory. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; I can't remember whether it was television, it was -electronics of some sort. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you the nature of his work? - -Mr. PAINE. He did not tell me. I thought to myself that if he was in a -very honorable position there he would have mentioned it. So, I thought -he was probably just a mechanic of some sort, wiring it together. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much he was paid? - -Mr. PAINE. I can't remember, I think he did but I don't remember what -he said. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that he received any income other than -from his work? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I don't believe he told me anything about that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. We have been referring primarily here in our questioning -to the first meeting that you had with him, but do you remember any -subsequent conversation with Oswald about his work, his pay, and his -income in the Soviet Union after this first meeting? - -Mr. PAINE. I think he thought it was too low. He thought the standard -of living, he recognized the standard of living was low, and they were -restricted therefore in their--just too confined, told where to live. -The food was boring and there was nothing to do. I didn't get the idea -it was lack of money. He did not say anything about lack of money. - -Mr. DULLES. I wonder if we could get for our guidance the approximate -number of times he saw Lee Oswald? - -Mr. PAINE. It was about four times that we had lengthy conversations. - -Mr. DULLES. Four times, that is four times prior to the date of the -assassination. - -Mr. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. DULLES. Or that includes all the times? - -Mr. PAINE. I didn't see him again after the assassination. - -Mr. DULLES. You didn't see him after the assassination. Four times -prior to the assassination including this one time you have already -described? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. This is the first meeting before he went to New Orleans -and then about three weekends after he came back---- - -Mr. DULLES. I think that will be taken up. I just wanted to get in my -mind approximately how many times in all you saw him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald at any time indicate to you that he was -treated by the Russian authorities in any way different from ordinary -Russian citizens who occupied a similar status in the Soviet Union? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I wasn't aware of that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about any special training that he had? - -Mr. PAINE. No; he did not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention his living accommodations? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, with some kind of resentment he did, that it was -assigned, and I think that is about all he said. - -Mr. DULLES. May I ask whether these questions relate to all the four -times or just to the first time, are we still on the first? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Basically on the first time, sir, unless we specify to -the contrary. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what else you and Oswald discussed during this -first meeting that you had? - -Mr. PAINE. Unfortunately that first meeting was the clearest one. I -was asking him questions, taking his answers. I had hoped when I met -this man to have insights into Russia, both meeting him and meeting his -wife, and interesting talks about the differences between the Russian -system and the American, the western system. - -Then I found that he was--some questions, later in the evening, the -conversation was translated into Russian also so that Marina could -follow along. - -Mr. DULLES. You mean after the first half hour when you were -preparing---- - -Mr. PAINE. That is right, when we came back after dinner to our house. - -Mr. DULLES. Your house. So this went on? - -Mr. PAINE. What you have heard now occurred mostly in the first half -hour when I was speaking directly to him when I met him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Then you returned to Irving to your house and had dinner -and had the additional conversation? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. Now, in all the subsequent conversations, you are going -to get less information in what he said. - -Mr. DULLES. In the first part of this meeting you were alone and in the -second part of the meeting there were other people there? - -Mr. PAINE. My wife and Marina was able to join us. At this time Marina -was packing things for Junie and I noticed that he was speaking very -harshly to her. He was telling her what bag or satchel to take. I -gathered from it, of course, it was in Russian, and I thought to -myself, here is a little fellow who certainly insists on wearing the -pants. - -Mr. DULLES. You don't understand Russian yourself? - -Mr. PAINE. No. So he spoke loudly to her, and didn't rise from his -seat. But spoke surprisingly harshly especially in front of a guest. - -Mr. DULLES. How did she take this? - -Mr. PAINE. With a bit of umbrage. She didn't like it. It rankled her. - -Representative FORD. In other words, this half hour conversation took -place in their apartment? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Representative FORD. While she was packing the bags to go to your home? - -Mr. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. DULLES. Was she packing the bags for some days or was this---- - -Mr. PAINE. No; just bottles, diapers, clothing, something. - -Mr. DULLES. For a weekend? - -Mr. PAINE. Just for the evening. - -Mr. DULLES. Just for an evening? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't know why it took so long but it did. I guess they -weren't quite ready when I arrived. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What else did you and Oswald speak about during this -evening, do you remember? - -Mr. PAINE. After supper the conversation was translated into Russian, -and I wanted to gather Marina's or get Marina's corroboration of -certain things he said about Russia and there we found when she had -differing opinions from him that he would not let her, he would slap -her down verbally, and not let her express them or say--Ruth told me -later, he was calling her a fool, "You don't know anything." - -When I encountered this, I actually trusted Marina to know--the -questions I was asking, it seemed to me could be better answered by -Marina, so I wasn't paying very close attention to what he had said -about that. - -Mr. DULLES. Could you indicate on what points they seemed to differ or -what points that he raised that irritated her or vice versa in their -discussion about Russia? You said he slapped her down. I was wondering -on what kind of points he slapped her down. - -Mr. PAINE. I have unfortunately tried to remember those points myself -wishing, wondering whether hypnosis would bring it out of me as a tape -recorder, or something. I was interested to know whether the Russians -were happy with their system, whether they felt the presence of the -Secret Police, these are questions, I don't remember asking them, these -are questions that I would have been interested in. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any response either from Marina or from -Oswald on these points? - -Mr. PAINE. And I don't remember anything specific here. I just remember -that I encountered too many points, where they apparently differed and, -therefore, I had in mind I will just wait until she can learn English -and we will get it from the horse's mouth. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you speak with Oswald during this first meeting of -the circumstances under which he met Marina and married her in Russia? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't remember when I learned that. I think I learned it -from Ruth, who had spoken to Marina on this subject. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you learn? - -Mr. PAINE. It may have been--I don't remember when it occurred, it may -have been after the assassination, I may have read it in the paper or -something. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember any specific conversations with Oswald -on that subject? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I don't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lee Oswald ever speak to you about his experience in -the United States Marine Corps? - -Mr. PAINE. He mentioned that his brother went in the Marine Corps and -apparently enjoyed it and he had then, I think he said he had left -school early to join it and I gathered, I thought to myself, he is -expecting to find the joy his brother found there and he did not find -it. He did not like the Marine Corps. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you anything--pardon me. - -Mr. PAINE. He did not mention that I can recall his exit from the -Marine Corps. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention the name of Governor Connally in -connection with his experiences in the Marines? - -Mr. PAINE. Not that I remember. - -Mr. DULLES. Did he ever mention the President in this or any other -conversations? - -Mr. PAINE. He mentioned the President only once that I can remember -specifically; at the ACLU meeting I think. - -Mr. DULLES. At the which? - -Mr. PAINE. At the ACLU meeting I took him to. He had mentioned, he -thought President Kennedy was doing quite a good job in civil rights, -which was high praise coming from Lee. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussion during this first meeting -other than the discussion you have already mentioned concerning -Oswald's political beliefs? - -Mr. PAINE. There, of course, I was interested in that subject, found we -differed, and then in order to not wrestle with concepts or arguments -that were unmanageably large, I tried to bring it down to more specific -instances of how he would like to see the world be. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did you become aware of the fact that you differed, -do you remember? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't remember him making any bones about it the very -first meeting. He told me he had become a Marxist, in his own apartment -there, that he had become a Marxist by reading books and never having -met a Communist in this country. - -And he also then told me with a certain sadness or regret that he -couldn't speak about political and economic subjects with his people, -and fellows at work. - -(At this point Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were going to mention specific areas of political -discussion that you had with him. - -Mr. PAINE. One other thing happened in this first half hour, the -most fruitful half hour I had ever had with him. He had mentioned -his employer. I probably asked him why did he leave this country to -go to the Soviet Union, and his supreme theme in this regard is the -exploitation of man by man, by which he means one man making a profit -out of another man's labor, which is the normal employment situation in -this country and to which he found--took, felt great resentment. - -He was aware that his employer made--he made more money for his -employer than he was paid and specifically he mentioned how his -employer of the engraving company goods and chattels that he had, -that Oswald didn't have, and with some specific resentment toward -this employer, and I thought privately to myself that this resentment -must show through if he ever meets his employer, it must sort of show -through and that his employer wouldn't find that man very attractive. -So this was his guiding theme. - -The reason it appears that this country, the system in this country had -to go, had to be changed, was because of this supreme immoral way of -managing affairs here, the exploitation of man by man which occurs in -this country. - -We discussed about it occurring in the Soviet Union, the taxation of a -man's labor, it occurs there also, and it appeared that only, he seemed -to agree or sometimes I had to feed him, this conversation now is a -later one, when we were talking about the specifics of exploitation of -man by man, he agreed that the only difference was that in the Soviet -Union it is a choice which is impersonal. - -The person who decides the man's wages and labor does not stand to gain -by it whereas in this country the man who decides stands to gain by it. - -Mr. DULLES. The man who decides what, to employ the other man? - -Mr. PAINE. No; what wage to pay him. - -Mr. DULLES. What wage to pay him? - -Mr. PAINE. Or what his return shall be. So that was the only--the most -important, by far economic and political almost, let's call it economic -doctrine he held. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he translate that economic doctrine to specific -policies that he thought should be adopted or specific changes that -should be made in the structure of this country? - -Mr. PAINE. I had never, to my satisfaction, uncovered an area of -progressive change that he would advocate. I asked him how did he think -this change was going to come about, and he never answered that. - -And it seemed to me he was critical of almost everything that occurs -in this country. So that he did not--I did not come to--did not know -of anything in which he could see a progressive evolutionary change or -policies that could be pushed in order to promote his ideals. - -Representative FORD. Did he react academically, intellectually, -violently or in what way did he express these views? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, he was quite dogmatic. First he wanted to put me in a -category. In one of the later talks--when we first met he talked very -freely and then I think as we made, in later conversations, I had to do -more and more of it--make more and more effort to draw something out of -him. - -In his later conversations, Ruth found him so bothersome. - -Mr. DULLES. What was that word? - -Mr. PAINE. Bothersome, that she couldn't join the conversations. He -would get too angry or too---- - -Representative FORD. He resented the probing or the questioning? - -Mr. PAINE. No; he did not really resent the probing. For instance, take -this issue of the exploitation of man by man. When we had boiled it -down to this rather fine difference or technical difference that one -was done by an impersonal body and one was done personal. - -Mr. DULLES. The Soviet being the first and the American being the -second? - -Mr. PAINE. That is correct. That being then the crux of the matter and -the reason this is the matter to be changed, if we were to follow the -logic of the discussion, many arguments seemed to approach at that kind -of a point where it is just logic or reason just didn't seem to work -or hold water in this case, and we were left then with the starkness of -his statement that this was an unforgivable moral sin, and he called -it a moral sin or I questioned him to that effect, and so he thought -it was a moral sin and he thought he was moral by adhering to that -doctrine. - -Representative FORD. Did he appear to enjoy these give and takes -between you and himself or did he resent them as you proceeded in your -discussions? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't think he resented them. I noticed at times he got -quite hot under the collar and I noticed that he was holding his, -staying on a steady keel even better than I was, as though he had had -considerable practice in sticking to, controlling himself, holding his -position and not getting ruffled. - -Representative FORD. But in this process over a period of time during -these four discussions he never deviated from his basic thesis? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. Of course, as I said to the others, I don't believe -whether you were here, we only had about four talks altogether, -and I later came to realize that if he were to have abandoned any -one of these or have abandoned that one in particular, that would -have undermined his whole philosophy, would humanly itself quite -unreasonable to expect a fundamental exchange within an evening, just -because of a logical compulsion or logical argument or something. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you get the impression that he felt both systems, the -American system and the Soviet system involved the exploitation of man -by man except it was a different exploiter? - -Mr. PAINE. I gathered--I was irked because it seemed to me the -difference that he accepted as a sufficient difference, the one in -the Soviet Union was impersonal, that he was not, in other words--he -admitted in the Soviet Union that the tax rate which was a general term -then for the amount of money or reward that is not returned of what a -man makes, was higher in the Soviet Union. He agreed that that could -be true, and didn't seem to be dismayed at that. So I did not find -criticism of the Soviet Union on that score. - -And in fact he didn't--I didn't discover in what ways he would like to -try to change the Soviet Union except he didn't like the restrictions -on his freedom there. Neither did he see there was any connection -between the restrictions on freedom there and the freedom we have here -without control of how the relationship between men would be governed. - -Mr. DULLES. Did he ever go into the question of the relative position -of labor in the United States from the point of view of its freedom of -bargaining and the control of labor in the Soviet Union? Did that ever -come up? - -Mr. PAINE. No. I think, I can't remember whether it was a conversation -I had directly with him or immediately after, I was following this -idea that here we feel we have quite a different attitude about -exploitation. Somebody--he felt exploited and he thought all the -working class was exploited, and he also thought they were brainwashed, -and he also thought that churches were all alike, all the religious -sects were the same and they were all apparatus of the power structure -to maintain itself in power. - -When I pointed out that our church was financed by people like myself, -when I contribute so many dollars to the church, he just shrugged his -shoulders. It didn't--his views still stood and it also permitted him, -I think, gave him the moral ground to dismiss my arguments because I -was here just a product of my environment and I didn't know better and -he had the word from the enlightenment, that he knew the truth and -therefore I was just spouting the line that was fed to me by the power -structure. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I think you mentioned before that he had wanted to put -you in a category, categorize you. Did he indicate to you during that -first conversation that he had concluded what category? - -Mr. PAINE. No; it was over several conversations, I suppose it was the -last conversation we had, he couldn't put me in a category and he named -about seven or eight categories. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What were they? - -Mr. PAINE. I wasn't a Bircher, I wasn't a liberal, a Communist, a -Socialist, probably something to do with religion, something like that, -atheist. - -Mr. DULLES. He didn't say whether you were a Republican or Democrat? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't believe he was concerned about that. - -(Laughter.) - -Mr. PAINE. No; I am sure he would see no distinction between the two -parties. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So he concluded that he was unable to categorize you? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. And I also felt as soon as he had realized that that he -could then dismiss me as not something that functions in this world, -not one of the forces or the opposing camps he has to contend with. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that your wife became bothered or Oswald -proved bothersome to your wife. Could you tell us in what way Oswald -was bothersome to Mrs. Paine? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, I think one of the most outstanding was in this -discussion of religions and I was trying to suggest that religions -did embody many of the values of many people and so the conversation -was trying to talk about those values quite apart from--I think the -Russian, I think Marina's view of religion is quite primitive--never -mind Marina. Ruth was bothered by his logic or argument being of no -avail. She would be content, you know if he had followed the laws of -debate or something, you present evidence and he presents opposite -evidence and you try to answer, let one answer the other. But when he -couldn't answer he would just state his belief and there he followed -the Communist line. - -He talked something about feudalism, or the church being more powerful -in feudalism than it was today and he tried to explain why that was. - -I had then suggested that maybe science was instrumental as an -alternative explanation to his explanation but instead of supporting -further his view, which just didn't make sense to me, he just restated -it. Well, this kind of thing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Upset your wife? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; you just couldn't enter the conversation deeper. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any other conversation, you and Oswald -had during this first evening that you met? - -The CHAIRMAN. From the first day, are you going back to? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. - -Mr. PAINE. I think we probably spoke, I was trying still to find common -ground with him, and I think we probably spoke critically of the far -right. It even seems to me we may have mentioned Walker. - -I had been bothered at the time that Walker had--I guess it doesn't do -any good to enter into the matter because I don't remember his response. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you mention Walker's name during the first meeting? - -Mr. PAINE. My memory is very foggy. But I would take it as--this was an -impression. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Give us your best recollection, and I want to ask you -again this was in early April 1963, that you had this conversation, is -that correct? - -Mr. PAINE. It was that first meeting when we had them over to dinner -and Ruth can give you the date of that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. For the benefit of the Commission the record indicates -it was about April 2, 1963, that that occurred. Tell us to the best of -your recollection what the conversation about General Walker was at -that time? - -Mr. PAINE. I think he had mentioned, a friend of ours had a German wife -and she just achieved her citizenship papers, and this had been done at -the ceremony and General Walker had been invited to lead the singing, -conducted by June Davis who is somewhat old and slipped into error -of calling him Judge Walker every once in a while, and it somewhat -offended this friend of ours who was aware of why she liked this -country, freedoms, and liberties and values that are expressed here. -And she was rather sorry that Walker should take it upon himself to -define, to these stupid foreigners or these ignorant foreigners, what -this country stands for. So I think I mentioned this episode to him. - -Representative FORD. Him being Oswald? - -Mr. PAINE. Oswald, and I think he smiled and nodded his assent. I don't -think he said any--I don't think he made any important remarks about -Walker. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything that he said about Walker at all? - -Mr. PAINE. I think that is the only time, probably the only time we -mentioned Walker. - -Mr. DULLES. To refresh my recollection, there was about 2 days or---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. 8 days before. - -Mr. RANKIN. It was on the 10th. - -Senator COOPER. Did he indicate in any way that he knew about General -Walker at that time? - -Mr. PAINE. We seemed to agree at least superficially that in thinking -the far right was unfortunate in its thoughts. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say anything or do anything that would lead you to -believe that he planned an attack on General Walker? - -Mr. PAINE. Absolutely not. - -Senator COOPER. Did he indicate in any way that he knew about General -Walker's activities and beliefs and position on public affairs? - -Mr. PAINE. When I went to the ACLU meeting he then got up, stood up and -reported what had happened at the meeting of the far right which had -occurred at convention hall the day before, U.N. Day, they called it -U.S. Day, and I think Walker had spoken then. - -From this I gathered that he was doing more or less the same thing--I -thought he was, I didn't inquire how he spent his free time but I -supposed he was going around to right wing groups being familiarizing -himself for whatever his purposes were as I was. - -Senator COOPER. Is that prior to the conversation you have talked about? - -Mr. PAINE. No; this is after this conversation. - -Senator COOPER. What? - -Mr. PAINE. This is after this conversation and I only had this, this -was the only concrete evidence I had of how he spent, might have spent -some of his time. It happened in the ACLU meeting in late October. I -suppose he was familiar with the right-wing groups and activities, and -movements. And certainly familiar with Walker; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Confining the Senator's question to the meeting in April, -he didn't indicate in any way that he was familiar with Walker's -attitude or activities? - -Mr. PAINE. He was familiar with Walker. He knew who Walker was, there -was no doubt about that. We were talking about Walker. - -Representative FORD. To find some common ground. - -Mr. DULLES. He didn't say he knew where Walker lived or anything of -that kind. That didn't come up? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate any understanding to you at that April -meeting of Walker's attitude? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't think he singled out Walker as--I had the impression -that he was quite familiar with Walker and probably familiar with -the names of various right-wing groups, shall we say, the Christian -Science, not the Christian Science, I have forgotten the names of -various organizations. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you relate to Oswald this story about Walker speaking -at the meeting or the ceremony at which the immigrants were given their -citizenship? - -Mr. PAINE. I believe I did; yes. I believe that is what I said about -Walker at the time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was his response to that? - -Mr. PAINE. And I think he didn't say much. I think he smiled and nodded -his head and did that kind of thing. He may have said just a few words. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you take it that Oswald agreed with the views that -you expressed? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after this first meeting---- - -Senator COOPER. May I interrupt you again, I don't want to interrupt -your train too much but I think you had said that during this -conversation that you did have some discussion about right-wing groups. - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Senator COOPER. And their position and activities, and so forth. In -that discussion were individuals named or members assumed to be members -of that group? - -(At this point Representative Ford left the hearing room.) - -Mr. PAINE. It is possible we would have mentioned Welch. I don't think -I would have mentioned Welch, I didn't know anything specifically about -the John Birch Society at the time. - -Senator COOPER. Was Walker, he was talking about Walker? - -Mr. PAINE. He was the only one whose name was mentioned. - -Senator COOPER. Are you sure whether or not Oswald made any comment at -any time during this conversation about Walker? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't remember, as I say, I remember it very vaguely but -I remember telling that instance of his conducting that ceremony. -But--and Walker was known, I knew that Walker was known to Lee. And at -least it achieved a certain feeling of similarity there, even though -the similarity was only superficial in our views and feelings about it. -I don't think he went on to describe any--it was mostly a ploy on my -part to curry him or make him feel more at ease. - -Mr. LIEBELER. It was clear to you at that time that both you and -Mr. Oswald had an adverse view of General Walker and did not think -favorably of him, is that correct? - -Mr. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Had you heard of Lee Oswald before you had occasion to go -and pick him up that time and bring him to your house for dinner? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; I heard about him as soon as Ruth had been invited to -this party back in February, whenever it was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was the basis of your wife's interest in the Oswalds -and of your interest in the Oswalds? - -Mr. PAINE. Everett Glover invited us knowing that Ruth was studying -Russian and that--asked us if we would be interested in meeting -this--they were presented to us as an American who had defected to -Russia and decided he didn't like it and came back and brought a -Russian wife with him. Would we like to meet these people? Yes, that -sounded interesting. - -Mr. DULLES. Was this the Fort Worth group? - -Mr. PAINE. No; this is in Dallas. - -Mr. DULLES. Dallas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. After this first meeting with Lee Oswald when was the -next time that you saw him? - -Mr. PAINE. That would be after he returned, when Marina was living with -us, when he returned, we thought he returned from looking for work from -Houston but apparently it had been his trip to Mexico. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us the circumstances of how you met him and what -happened at that time? - -Mr. DULLES. Could we have the date of this? - -Mr. LIEBELER. This would have been what, early October or late -September of 1963? - -Mr. PAINE. I think Marina was there about a week, at least a week -before he came, if she came the 24th of September, which comes to my -mind, it would be in the early part of October. I would normally appear -at the house on Fridays, sometimes occasionally on Sundays, I would -come on Friday evening, and---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. You were separated from your wife at this time? - -Mr. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you had your own apartment at Arlington, Tex.? - -Mr. PAINE. Grand Prairie. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Grand Prairie. - -Mr. PAINE. I don't particularly remember, the occasions don't stand out -one from another. The first two meetings, I think were before he found -work, and at first I talked a little bit about the problem of finding -work with him. - -Mr. DULLES. These were the first two meetings after the preliminary -meeting? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. While Marina was staying with us. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Go through your testimony, Mr. Paine and tell us as best -you can recall how many times you saw Oswald after his return from New -Orleans, up until the time of his assassination? - -Mr. PAINE. I think I saw him every weekend on Friday; I think he was -there except for the weekend, before the assassination, exceptional. - -I would arrive on Tuesday or Wednesdays and, of course, he was not -there and there was Ruth and Marina. I would simply come in on Sunday -when he was generally there. - -Also, I quite specifically remember on the long holiday he had some -period there, I don't remember, what celebration it is, when Bell did -not have that day off and he did, so he was there that morning, a -Monday morning on that date of that holiday, perhaps you can feed me -the date. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would that be November 8th, 9th and 10th, 1963? - -Mr. PAINE. I think that is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was that the last time you saw him? - -Mr. PAINE. That would be correct; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, tell us the circumstances about how Oswald arrived -in Irving upon his return from New Orleans as best you can recall it, -what happened, what was said. - -Mr. PAINE. I must not have been there when the phone call arrived but -I think Ruth reported it to me so that Ruth said that Marina was very -pleased, very happy to receive this call, a surprise or something. I -think I had at one or two times seen her answer a call from him, and -I observed she was glad to have this call from him but I wasn't there -when he first called, I don't believe. - -Mr. DULLES. Was that the call from New Orleans to Irving? - -Mr. PAINE. No; that is the call from somewhere in Dallas to Irving -asking if he could come out. I don't know of a call from New Orleans to -Irving. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he subsequently come out to the house in Irving that -weekend? - -Mr. PAINE. Then he came out that weekend. I suppose he came out on a -Friday and it was probably before I got over there, I arrived about six. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember if he was there when you arrived home -that weekend? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't remember that. I think he was there; yes. I think he -was there because otherwise I would have seen that meeting. I did not -see them first embrace each other. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say anything to you about where he had been? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I thought I knew where he had been. Ruth had told me he -was looking for work in Houston. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Ruth had told you that before this date? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There was no conversation among any one at that time -about Oswald having been in Mexico. - -Mr. PAINE. No; it was a complete surprise to Ruth and myself. When we -saw this letter where he mentioned having been to Mexico, Ruth took it -as an example of his colossal lying. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about this letter, what were the circumstances -surrounding that? - -Mr. PAINE. He had written a letter using her typewriter and her desk to -a party I don't know. - -Mr. DULLES. That is Ruth's typewriter and desk? - -Mr. PAINE. Ruth's typewriter and he left the rough draft of the letter -on her desk, not folded, just out there on her desk, in English. Ruth -had given me the impression it was there for a couple of days. Actually -it was there for a day and a half or so. I think he wrote it on -Saturday and we then moved the furniture on Sunday night. - -Mr. DULLES. This would be Saturday, November what? - -Mr. PAINE. This might be that holiday November. I don't remember for -sure about that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Paine, you and I discussed this question yesterday -and I asked you whether you recalled seeing Oswald again after you had -discussed this letter with your wife. What did you tell me? - -Mr. PAINE. I thought probably not but we figured out the dates from my -probable reaction that I read that letter and then had I encountered -him again I would have had a different, I would have had questions or -feelings or something in response to this letter and since I didn't -encounter him with those feelings I must not have seen him again. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So that would place the date of your seeing this letter -as approximately shortly after the weekend of November 8, 9, and 10? - -Mr. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you Commission Exhibit 103 and ask you if you -ever saw the original of this letter and if you did to tell us the -circumstances surrounding that event. - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; I saw this letter. I remembered most of the contents. -I apparently didn't remember that he didn't use his real name, I was -reading something else at the time and Ruth handed me this letter and -it took a while--I didn't read it as thoroughly as I could have. - -Mr. DULLES. Could you tell us just briefly the contents of this letter -just for the record? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, sir; apparently it is a draft of a letter that -Oswald wrote in his own hand. The Commission does have a copy of the -actual letter, and it was a letter to the Russian Embassy, I believe in -Washington. - -Mr. DULLES. The Russian Embassy in Washington? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, sir; in which he tells them about his trip to -Mexico and his political activity on behalf of the Fair Play for Cuba -Committee. I believe it includes the words "notorious FBI," which is no -longer interested in his political activity in Texas. - -Mr. DULLES. Was this letter ever sent? - -Mr. LIEBELER. I believe it was. - -Mr. DULLES. There was a letter sent like this? You said you had the -original? - -Mr. RANKIN. It is in evidence. - -Mr. DULLES. What was sent, a letter like this? - -Mr. RANKIN. A redraft. - -Mr. DULLES. A redraft. - -Mr. PAINE. Typewritten copy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This letter refers to the fact that Oswald had been in -Mexico, does it not? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; it tells of his visit to the Cuban Consul and the -Soviet Embassy there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife call that to your attention when she showed -you this letter? - -Mr. PAINE. We took it, she took it, and I likewise took it as somewhat -of a fabricated story, I didn't suppose he had been down to Mexico. I -read "Dear Sirs" there, I read "Dear Lisa." I thought he was writing to -a friend, and Ruth pointed out to me after I had given the letter back -to her, Ruth was somewhat irked that I didn't take more interest in the -thing. I think I might have--no, I don't know as I might have since I -might have dismissed it as a lie but anyway Ruth was irked and didn't -show it to me again and I asked her now what was in that letter that I -didn't see and she didn't tell me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This was all prior to the assassination? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did she say to you? - -Mr. PAINE. Ruth was quite bothered by that letter, and apparently -had--apparently I hadn't really taken it in. I said, "The heck with it. -Yes; it is a fantastic lie, isn't that amazing that he will fabricate -such stories here." - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did she say? - -Mr. PAINE. No; she said--she approached me and said, "I never realized -how much he could lie" or that he was a liar or something like that, -and "I want you to read this letter." So I put aside the thing I was -reading in which I was more interested and read most of the letter, not -the latter part about having used another name. - -And then I thought it was too personal, "Dear Lisa," so I thought he -was telling her, being rather braggadocio telling about his exploits -which were rather imaginary and I put it out of my mind. Then later -Ruth asked me what did I think about it---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. This was before the assassination that she asked you this? - -Mr. PAINE. I think so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was it later the same day? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I think it probably was another day but I don't -remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did she say? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, she was--I think I said, "Let me see that letter -again," and she said, "No; if you didn't absorb it, never mind." So, -heck, if she felt that way, I wasn't going to bother. My first impulse -was to throw it aside and pay no attention to it. If she felt that way -I continued to do it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who brought the letter up the second time, did Ruth bring -it up? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; Ruth brought it up. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether there was any event that caused -her to bring it up or did she bring it up out of the clear blue sky or -what? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't remember having slept with her but I have the -impression she brought it up while I was in bed anyway. So it might -have been, just be, I was staying late that night also, I don't know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that Oswald had given Marina a charm made -out of a Mexican peso at the time that you read this letter? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn about that at any time prior to the -assassination? - -Mr. PAINE. Not that I remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you note the fact that Oswald had a record of Mexican -music in your home prior to the assassination? - -Mr. PAINE. I didn't know that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you subsequently learn that Oswald had given Marina -this charm made from a Mexican peso? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Under what circumstances? - -Mr. PAINE. The FBI came out and they were wondering whether Oswald had -used my shop to mount his sight so we went out to look at the shop and -tools and we looked at the threading tap and what not, the threading -tap looked as though it hadn't been used but the drill press seemed to -have little chips of metal on it and then Ruth remembered that he had -gone in there and used the drill press to have drilled out this coin -which Marina put around her neck, and I think she then mentioned it was -a peso. But it hadn't sunk into Ruth with significance of its being a -peso, hadn't impressed itself upon her prior to the assassination. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So that neither you nor your wife believed that Oswald -had been in Mexico prior to the assassination? - -Mr. PAINE. You will have to ask Ruth about that. That was my impression -he hadn't been there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your wife hadn't said anything to you that indicated that -she believed it? - -Mr. PAINE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you mentioned before the fact that you had gone with -Oswald to a meeting of the American Civil Liberties Union, is that -correct? - -Mr. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you do that? - -Mr. PAINE. That was the day after Stevenson had been stoned. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances of that event? - -Mr. PAINE. That was a Friday I had intended to go, I had also invited -Frank Krystinik for his first visit, I had been telling him about the -ACLU. So I invited Lee to come thinking it might be part--I was not -really talking to him very much, but just being civil but I thought it -might be helpful for him to see something in which I was interested, -that I might find some way that he might find an interest, something -constructive to do. - -So, I took him in my car, he and I alone, and on the way, which takes -about 35 minutes, described the ACLU to him, and he didn't know about -it, and described its purpose. Then we went to the meeting which was a -meeting, first we saw a movie called "Suspect," I think it was showing -how a candidate lost, who had won handily in a previous election, lost -after a smear campaign in Washington State, which it had been brought -out that his wife had once been a Communist Party member. - -I didn't think the movie showed very much, but the meeting, the -discussion following the movie, there were two people who gave little -talks about the movie and the principles involved afterward, this--do -you want to break? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who went with you in the car to the meeting, just you and -Mr. Oswald or was Mr. Krystinik with you? - -Mr. PAINE. No; Krystinik came in his own car, so just Lee and myself. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead with your story. - -Mr. PAINE. I thought the meeting was conducted in a manner that -illustrated its own beliefs. One of the things said was that the -Birchers must not be considered anti-Semitic, anti-Semites because they -are also Birchers. - -Lee at this point got up, speaking loud and clear and coherently, -saying that, reporting that, he had been to this meeting of the -right-wing group the night before or two nights before and he refuted -this statement, saying names and saying how that people on the platform -speaking for the Birch Society had said anti-Semitic things and also -anti-Catholic statements or spoke against the Pope or something. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what Oswald said? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I don't remember. He said something very similar to, -"I disagree with what had just been said," and I do remember that it -contained both some corroboration of his points of view. There had been -some kind of an anti-Semitic statement and criticism of the Pope. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald seemed to make a convincing argument and seemed to -make sense? - -Mr. PAINE. That was good speaking. It was out of keeping with the mood -of the meeting and nobody followed it up in a similar manner but I -think it was accepted as--it made sense; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody else say anything in response to Oswald's -remarks? - -Mr. PAINE. I think not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What happened then later on in the meeting? - -Mr. PAINE. Later on in the meeting, when the meeting broke up, people -clustered into discussion groups, and Frank, I told Frank, who was a -colleague at work, Frank Krystinik, about Lee and Marina, and so of -course he immediately came to defend free enterprise and what not in -opposition to this fellow I told him about, and I left the discussion -at that point, thinking I knew the kind of discussion it would be. - -It was a discussion between three people, a more elderly man whom I -probably thought was a member of the ACLU, and Frank and Lee. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any part of the discussion? - -Mr. PAINE. I didn't hear any part of the discussion. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you subsequently discuss it with either Oswald or -Krystinik? - -Mr. PAINE. And in the car going home, Lee asked me if I knew this man -he had been talking to, this older man he had been talking to, and I -think he said that the man seemed to be friendly to Cuba or rather he -said, "Do you think that man is a Communist?" And I said, "No." And -then he said something, "I think he is." Then I asked him why and I -think he said something in regard to Cuba or sympathy with Cuba, and -then I thought to myself, well, that is rather feeble evidence for -proving a Communist. - -But he seemed to have the attitude of, felt he wanted to meet that -man again and was pleased he had met him. I thought to myself if that -is the way he has to meet his Communists, he has not yet found the -Communist group in Dallas. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there a Communist group in Dallas, to your knowledge? - -Mr. PAINE. Not to my knowledge. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever speak of a Communist group in Dallas? - -Mr. PAINE. No; he did not. I had the impression, this I remember -clearly that he had not found the group with similar feelings to his. -I then asked Frank in regard to, I can't remember when I asked Frank -but I asked Frank about the same conversation and whether he thought -that this third man was a Communist. And he thought no, he thought the -other man was a better--Frank almost got into a fight with Lee, and the -other man was more receptive or didn't argue with him, or drew him out -better, Frank used the word, I think. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Drew Oswald out better? - -Mr. PAINE. Drew Oswald out better. But he didn't gather the impression -that he was favoring Castro or Cuba. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What else did you and Oswald say on the way home after -the meeting? - -Mr. PAINE. So I was describing to him the purpose of the ACLU, and -he said specifically, I can remember this, after I had described it -and said that I was a member, that he couldn't join an organization -like that, it wasn't political and he said something or responded in -some manner, which indicated surprise that I could be concerned about -joining an organization simply to defend, whose purpose it is, shall we -say, to defend, free speech, free speech, per se, your freedom as well -as mine. - -He was aware of enjoying his freedom to speak but he didn't seem to be -aware of the more general principle of freedom to speak for everyone -which has value in itself. And I think it took him by surprise that a -person could be concerned about a value like that rather than political -objective of some sort, and this was, struck me as a new idea and it -struck me that he must never have met people who paid more than lip -service, he wasn't familiar with the ways of expressing this value. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you say anything to him about the activities of the -Civil Liberties Union in connection with the defense of people accused -of crimes under certain conditions? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; I am sure I told him that it came to the defense of all -people who didn't seem to be receiving adequate help when it seemed to -be an issue involving the Bill of Rights. I was then--that was a pang -of sorrow that occurred after the assassination when I realized that he -had then subsequently, a fortnight later, joined the ACLU, and still -didn't quite seem to perceive its purpose, and then I realized--I had -also perceived earlier that he was still a young fellow and I had been -expecting rather a lot of him, when I first approached meeting him; -this man had been to Russia and had been back and I had been--met some -others who had been around the world like that and they are powerful -people. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald impress you that way? - -Mr. PAINE. And he did not impress me that way; no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald respond to your, or did you request Oswald or -did you suggest to him that he join the ACLU? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I don't think I was eager to have him join until he knew -what was what about it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. During the time after the ACLU meeting did Oswald say -anything about his discussion with Mr. Krystinik? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I don't believe so. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you subsequently discuss that with Mr. Krystinik? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say and what did he say? - -Mr. PAINE. He told me how he had argued, that he had pointed out that -he had employed a few people himself, he works at Bell but on the side, -at night he had done a little extra business and had employed other -people, and had to receive from them more than he paid them, that he -received from their labor, for their product, more than he paid them -but that he created work and jobs, and he was fully--and he was ready -to defend his way of that activity and was presenting that against -Lee's criticism and apparently encountered the same kind of nonsequitur -response or no response from him or Lee's response didn't--Lee -presented his opposing view against it without any issue. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that Krystinik and Oswald had almost gotten -into a fight, did Krystinik tell you that? - -Mr. PAINE. I think it was Frank who told me that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us more about that? - -Mr. PAINE. I am sure Frank would not haul off and slug him, but just -Frank said he got pretty mad at this. I think Frank was using that -expression to me only, you know, saying how irked he was at Lee. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't indicate that Oswald had threatened any -physical violence toward him in connection with the argument, did he? - -Mr. PAINE. Oh, no; I think Lee knows how to keep his temper, knows how -to control himself. - -Senator COOPER. Might I ask a question at this time? Earlier you -talked about your, I think your, first meeting with Oswald and your -conversation with him? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Senator COOPER. You said, you talked about, the fact that subsequently -your wife was bothered by his attitude? - -Mr. PAINE. She was bothered by---- - -Senator COOPER. I am not going into that. - -Now, you have talked about this conversation with Mr. Krystinik? - -Mr. PAINE. Krystinik. - -Senator COOPER. In which they reached some point in which further -discussion was not, if not impossible, was at least difficult between -them? - -From these experiences you had was there a situation, that after some -arguments or discussion of economic or political issues, he would reach -a point in which he relied upon certain fixed positions that he held -about which he would not admit of any further discussion or argument? - -Mr. PAINE. That is correct. He would just present his dogmatic view and -then one was at loss to find any way to get off that impasse. - -Senator COOPER. When he was questioned about that view or when an -attempt was made to argue that view with him, would he then become -angry or disturbed in any way? - -Mr. PAINE. The time that I reported I was angry and I noticed he was -holding his temper pretty well and I wasn't going to let him hold his -temper better than mine. - -Senator COOPER. Did you see indication---- - -Mr. PAINE. I saw he was angry, his hands trembled a little bit. - -Senator COOPER. All right. - -Mr. PAINE. But he was dogged, I think he was practiced or skilled or -took pride in this was a kind of struggle or fight that he would do -this, and he would do it for a long time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Clench his fists and put them together? - -Mr. PAINE. No; it was expressing this as a mood. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He would hold himself back? - -Mr. PAINE. He would oppose himself to you steadily, and it seemed to me -he liked to put himself in a position of belligerence or opposition, -and he would just hold his ground or something, was accustomed to doing -that and expected to stick it out. It reminded me a little bit of -Lawrence of Arabia when Lawrence held the match that burned down to his -finger and the fellows asked him what is the trick? He said no trick -you just learn how to stand the pain. - -Senator COOPER. I have to go and I would like to ask a few questions. - -I ask these questions to get a certain background of his views which -you have said he finally came to some fixed position which he would -hold and would not move and there was no brooking of real argument on -that position. - -You said earlier in response to a question by counsel that he did not -believe there was any possibility of any evolutionary progress in this -country, at least upon this issue of economic change. - -Mr. PAINE. This he never said that specifically. But I would ask him -what policy should we take or I was trying to find if he didn't have -some avenue of following a policy in this country. - -Senator COOPER. Did you direct questions to him which showed some -evolution in our own economic ideas and theories which he either -refused to accept---- - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; I did. I mean I tried to show him how labor and -management, first labor had a right, I was criticizing labor for the -rigid position it is getting us into now---- - -Senator COOPER. He would not accept that idea of evolution? - -Mr. PAINE. I think he did not accept it; yes. - -He didn't have patience with it. - -Senator COOPER. Is that also a tenet of the Communist dogma, do you -know? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't believe, I don't know whether you can say there is -a single Communist dogma of that sort. I suppose there are some groups -that feel that way and others don't. - -Senator COOPER. Did he indicate any other way in which he thought that -economic change might come about in the United States? - -Mr. PAINE. He did not indicate or reveal to me how he thought it would -come about and I on several occasions felt by his, perceived from his -attitude or felt impelled by his attitude to say that the values that -I held dear were diminished in a situation of violence, to which he -remained silent and I took it as disagreement. But I don't remember if -he had said that. - -Senator COOPER. He remained silent when you spoke about that? - -Mr. PAINE. When I said I was opposed to violence or said, why, when I -said that he remained silent and I took it---- - -Senator COOPER. You took it that he disagreed in any way by your -statement? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, just by the way he would sort of withdraw. - -Senator COOPER. He did not agree with your position? - -Mr. PAINE. He did not agree; no. - -Senator COOPER. That violence was unacceptable as a means of change? - -Mr. PAINE. That is right, and I don't think he perceived also, was a -war of the kind of values that I am--tolerance, for instance seems to -me disappears when strained situations---- - -Senator COOPER. Did you discuss at least the kind of economic changes -that had occurred in Russia by means of violence? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I was trying to find out whether he thought it was going -to come by revolution or not and he never did say, I never got an -answer as to how he thought this change was going to come. He did not -reveal constructive, or from my point of view, constructive effort to -make. - -Senator COOPER. Did he ever discuss the revolution in Russia where by -means of violence the change had come about? - -Mr. PAINE. He did not. That would have been the kind of argument I -would have accepted, a normal kind that you would have accepted it as -evidence here is the normal way to produce it, but he never said that. - -Senator COOPER. Did he ever say any way in which he was expecting -Russia or any other country to indicate that he felt the use of -violence had produced good? - -Mr. PAINE. No. As I say he did not--I would have accepted that argument -as a debating argument but he didn't bring it up. - -Senator COOPER. That is all. - -Mr. DULLES. Did he say or did you get the impression that he felt that -violence was the only way to improve things, let's say, in the United -States? - -Mr. PAINE. I felt he was so disgusted with the whole system that he -didn't see a way that was worthwhile fussing around trying to modify -the situation. - -Mr. DULLES. Other than violence or he didn't go that far? - -Mr. PAINE. He didn't mention advocating violence or didn't say anything -in regard to violence but he did seem to me he didn't see dismissed as -trivial, no difference between the parties so why join one party or -another. They were all the same. - -Churches--there is no avenue out that way. Education--there is nothing -there. So that he never revealed to me any constructive way that wasn't -violent. - -Mr. DULLES. Did he think that communism was different from capitalism -in this respect? - -(Short recess.) - -The CHAIRMAN. All right, gentlemen, the Commission will be in order. - -Mr. DULLES. What I was getting at with my question was as to whether -he thought that probably violence was necessary with respect to both -systems to achieve the millennium that he sought or did he think it was -just necessary with regard to the American system. - -Mr. PAINE. He didn't reveal to me to my satisfaction what criticism he -found of the Soviet Union. He had indicated he didn't like it. But I -wasn't aware that he was proposing to change that system also in some -way. Neither did he ever speak, he never spoke to me, in a way that I -could see a paradise, see his paradise. He spoke only, he was opposed -to exploitation of man by man. That was his motivating power. - -(At this point Senator Cooper left the hearing room.) - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald indicate to you in any way that he had been -present at the right-wing rally that was held in Dallas the night -before Stevenson appeared in Dallas? - -Mr. PAINE. He indicated that at the ACLU meeting. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say he had met anybody there? - -Mr. PAINE. Not that I recall, no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention speaking to anyone at that meeting? - -Mr. PAINE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you whether or not he was at the Stevenson -meeting itself? - -Mr. PAINE. I guess I didn't ask him that. I remember asking myself -subsequently what was the answer to that question and I couldn't answer -it then and I can't answer it now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection of his mentioning it at all? - -Mr. PAINE. No, I don't remember what--I think I assumed that he had -but---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. You assumed that he had been at the Stevenson affair? - -Mr. PAINE. I think I assumed that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any basis for that assumption? - -Mr. PAINE. There had been some discussion in the ACLU, some other -people had gotten up and had spoken of that awful last night, I guess, -this was the previous night, that awful time and I think he seemed to -nod his assent. That was my---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. You inferred from that that he had possibly been present -at the Stevenson meeting? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. There was no other basis for your assumption in that -regard? - -Mr. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. On the weekend of November 8, 9, and 10, do you recall -when you came to your house in Irving? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, I would come out regularly on Friday after cashing my -check at the bank. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember coming on Friday evening on the 8th of -November? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't remember any break in that habit. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall whether or not Oswald was present at your -home on the Friday evening November 8, 1963? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I don't specifically remember that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember one way or the other? - -Mr. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you at the house on Saturday? November 9th? - -Mr. PAINE. I was at the house probably on Saturday and certainly on -Sunday. I think that weekend I remember stepping over him as he sat -in front of the TV, stepping past, one of these things laying on -the floor and thinking to myself for a person who has a business to -do he certainly can waste the time. By business I mean some kind of -activity and keeping track of right-wing causes and left-wing causes or -something. I supposed that he spent his time as I would be inclined to -spend more of my time if I had it, trying to sense the pulse of various -groups in the Dallas area. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what Oswald did on Saturday morning, November -9, 1963? - -Mr. PAINE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that he was taken by your wife to apply for -a driver's license and take a driver's license test on that morning? - -Mr. PAINE. She told me sometime subsequently that she had taken him -for--wait. I remember the incident that he had arrived on a Saturday -morning at the drivers' license bureau, stood in line for a long time -but they cut off the line at 12 o'clock and he did not stay there long -enough for him to get his driver's license student permit. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was this at this time or would that have been another -time. Let me help you. - -Mr. PAINE. I don't remember that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would it help to refresh your recollection if I suggested -that November 9th was a local election day in Dallas, I believe? - -Mr. PAINE. I think that is an election that I have forgotten. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You have no knowledge of Oswald's activities on that day, -no direct personal knowledge? - -Mr. PAINE. It doesn't, it didn't cue me in, so I don't---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Oswald drive a car? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I did not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with him driving an automobile or -obtaining a driver's license? - -Mr. PAINE. I probably said it would be well to get a driver's license. -It would be well--I probably said, "You probably need a car to get -around here." In other words, effectively; no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate to you that he planned to purchase -an automobile? - -Mr. PAINE. I bought this second-hand car for $200. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of a car is that? - -Mr. PAINE. That is a 1956 Oldsmobile. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you buy it? - -Mr. PAINE. I bought it while they were there, while Marina was staying -with us, which was sometime in November. Either October or November, -probably the early part of November. They went out to admire the car. -$200, I suppose, didn't seem out of their reach then. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you that he was thinking---- - -Mr. PAINE. Therefore, I think Ruth, they went out to admire the car -and, of course, I was thinking that it, this might make it appear to -them that the car was within reach, and driving was something to be -sought. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In addition to the Oldsmobile that you mentioned, you -personally own a Citroen automobile and your wife owns a station wagon, -is that correct? - -Mr. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw Oswald drive any of those cars at any time? - -Mr. PAINE. That is correct. I had keys to both of my cars so he could -not have driven them without---- - -Mr. LIEBELER. Without your knowledge? - -Mr. PAINE. Or else somehow getting another. He would have to--you can, -I have driven my car when I have broken the key. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But you never saw him drive it? - -Mr. PAINE. I never saw him drive it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife ever tell you that she had seen Oswald -driving a car or she was trying to teach him how to drive a car? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes; she did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she indicate what proficiency he had at operating an -automobile? - -Mr. PAINE. She thought he was, she observed how much one has to learn -in order to drive a car. He had a difficulty in some manner, perhaps -it was in judging when to turn the wheel when parking. And I think she -said he over controlled it, turned too far. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Looking back now on all your conversations with Oswald, -after his return from New Orleans, did you have any discussions with -him other than the ones you have already mentioned in your previous -testimony? - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question before you answer this question. -About the car, did you get any idea as to why he didn't want to drive a -car or to have a car, did he think this would make him a capitalist or -anything of that kind? Did anything come up in the conversations with -regard to his not having a car or not driving a car? - -Mr. PAINE. No. I gathered that was slightly embarrassing not to be able -to drive a car. - -Mr. DULLES. All right. Thank you. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you recall any conversations that you had with -Oswald that you think would be helpful for us to know other than the -ones you have already mentioned? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't recall one now. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate to you any specific hostility toward -President Kennedy? - -Mr. PAINE. I think at this ACLU meeting he mentioned this specifically -that he thought Kennedy had done a good job in civil rights. That was -it--generally my impression was that he liked--he didn't like anybody, -but he disliked Kennedy least as you might go right from Kennedy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your recollection, was that the only time -he mentioned President Kennedy specifically? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention Governor Connally? - -Mr. PAINE. Not to my knowledge. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate any hostility toward the United -States other than the hostility that you have previously testified to -after his return from the Soviet Union and his general dislikes of the -American system? - -Mr. PAINE. That is right. Just his general dislike. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate to you a desire to return to the -Soviet Union? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I think when I learned, I don't know when it was that he -had planned to go back there that it was a surprise to me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you learn that he planned to go back there? - -Mr. PAINE. That was probably subsequent; yes, that was certainly -subsequent to November 22. - -Mr. DULLES. Or to go to Cuba? - -Mr. PAINE. Or to go to Cuba, yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When that was spoken---- - -Mr. PAINE. I remember now, first it was mentioned could he be connected -with a Communist plot and there I thought of Russian Communists and -that didn't seem to ring a bell. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When was that mentioned? - -Mr. PAINE. This was after the assassination, a day or two later. Then -when the Fair Play for Cuba Committee was mentioned, that was the first -I had heard of it except for his mentioning Cuba to this man at the -ACLU meeting referring to it in the car to me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. He never told you that he had been active in the Fair -Play for Cuba Committee? - -Mr. PAINE. That is correct, that was the only recollection I could -remember his ever having mentioned Cuba. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now yesterday, we asked you about an incident or spoke to -you about an incident that happened in September of 1963 when you went -into your garage to use some tools, your garage in Irving, Tex. Would -you tell us about that? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't remember whether the date was September. I remember -that was the date they came back from New Orleans and I do remember -that my wife asked me to unpack some of their heavy things from their -car. I only recall unpacking duffelbags but any other package, that was -the heaviest thing there and they were easy also. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You must have moved the duffelbags from the station wagon -into the garage? - -Mr. PAINE. That is right. I unpacked whatever was remaining in the -station wagon to the garage. - -So sometime later, I do remember moving about this package which, let's -say, was a rifle, anyway it was a package wrapped in a blanket. The -garage was kind of crowded and I did have my tools in there and I had -to move this package several times in order to make space to work, -and the final time I put it on the floor underneath the saw where the -handsaw would be casting dust on it and I was a little embarrassed to -be putting his goods on the floor, but I didn't suppose, the first time -I picked it up I thought it was camping equipment. I said to myself -they don't make camping equipment of iron pipes any more. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Why did you say that to yourself when you picked up the -package? - -Mr. PAINE. I had, my experience had been, my earliest camping equipment -had been a tent of iron pipes. This somehow reminded me of that. I felt -a pipe with my right hand and it was iron, that is to say it was not -aluminum. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How did you make that distinction? - -Mr. PAINE. By the weight of it, and by the, I suppose the moment of -inertia, you could have an aluminum tube with a total weight massed in -the center somehow but that would not have had the inertia this way. - -Mr. DULLES. You were just feeling this through the blanket though? - -Mr. PAINE. I was also aware as I was moving his goods around, of his -rights to privacy. So I did not feel--I had to move this object, I -wasn't thinking very much about it but it happens that I did think a -little bit about it or before I get on to the working with my tools I -thought, an image came to mind. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think there was more than one tent pole in the -package or just one tent pole? - -Mr. PAINE. As I say, I moved it several times, and I think I thought -progressively each time. I moved it twice. It had three occasions. And -the first one was an iron, thought of an iron pipe and then I have -drawn, I drew yesterday, a picture of the thing I had in mind. Then in -order to fill out the package I had to add another object to it and -there I added again I was thinking of camping equipment, and I added a -folding shovel such as I had seen in the Army, a little spade where the -blade folds back over the handle. This has the trouble that this blade -was too symmetrical I disposed to the handle and to fit the package -the blade had to be off center, eccentric to the handle. Also, I had -my vision of the pipe. It had an iron pipe about 30 inches long with -a short section of pipe going off 45 degrees. No words here, it just -happened that I did have this image in my mind of trying to fill up -that package in the back burner of my mind. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The witness yesterday did draw a picture of what he -visualized as being in the blanket, and I will offer it in evidence -later on in the hearing. - -How long was this package in your estimation? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, yesterday we measured the distance that I indicated -with my hand, I think it came to 37 inches. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately how thick would you say it was? - -Mr. PAINE. I picked it up each time and I put it in a position and then -I would recover it from that position, so each time I moved it with the -same position with my hands in the same position. My right hand, the -thumb and forefinger could go around the pipe, and my left hand grabbed -something which was an inch and a half inside the blanket or something -thick. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did it occur to you at that time that there was a rifle -in the package? - -Mr. PAINE. That did not occur to me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You never at any time looked inside the package? - -Mr. PAINE. That is correct. I could easily have felt the package but I -was aware that of respecting his privacy of his possessions. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Were you subsequently advised of the probability or the -possibility that there had been a rifle wrapped in that package? - -Mr. PAINE. When I arrived on Friday afternoon we went into the garage, -I think Ruth, Marina and the policeman, and I am not sure it was the -first time, but there we saw this blanket was on the floor below the -bandsaw---- - -(At this point Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. PAINE. And a rifle was mentioned and then it rang a bell, the -rifle answered, fitted the package that I had been trying to fit these -unsuccessfully. It had never resolved itself, this shovel and pipe -didn't fit in there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And it seemed to you likely that there had in fact been a -rifle in the package? - -Mr. PAINE. That answered it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us when the last time was that you saw that -package in the garage prior to the assassination? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I am afraid I can't. - -Mr. DULLES. Do we have the date of the first time in the record? - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I think the witness testified it was either late -September or early October of 1963. - -I show you a blanket which has been marked as Commission Exhibit 140 -and ask you if that is the blanket you saw in the garage? - -Mr. PAINE. This looks a little cleaner, of course. I was there in the -night, and I also put the thing on the floor thinking it was rustic -equipment and that sawdust wouldn't hurt it. - -I also was concerned with moisture. This is very close to what I -remember. Yesterday in my testimony I had a desire to add blue to the -colors of brown and green. Last night I remembered that Thanksgiving -weekend I had bought another rustic blanket of a similar nature which -had blue in it, which is why I tried to get blue into the blanket. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you able to say at this time positively that this was -the blanket that you saw in your garage and that you moved on various -occasions in October and possibly November of 1963? - -Mr. PAINE. I didn't notice the particular design so I can't--it is a -very good representative of what I remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the texture of the blanket? - -Mr. PAINE. The texture. I felt it, of course, these several times and -the texture is the same. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was the package wrapped securely when it was in your -garage? - -Mr. PAINE. I had the impression--yes, it was. The whole package was -stiff. There was no shaking of the parts, and I had the impression it -was wrapped with about two strings. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I now show you Commission Exhibit 139, which is a rifle -that was found in the Texas School Book Depository Building, and ask -you if you at any time ever saw this rifle prior to November 22, 1963? - -Mr. PAINE. I did not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you seen it since that time and prior to yesterday? - -Mr. PAINE. I saw a rifle being shown to Marina in an adjoining cubicle -with a glass wall between us. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When was that? - -Mr. PAINE. That was the night of the 22d. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen this leather strap that is attached to -the rifle. - -Mr. PAINE. I have not seen that strap. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen a strap like this strap? - -Mr. PAINE. Or anything like it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you any idea where this strap could have come from? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't. - -Mr. DULLES. May I ask in that connection, was this just loosely wound -up in that blanket or was there some string around it or---- - -Mr. PAINE. I had the impression there were about two strings on the -thing. It wouldn't--also, I didn't think you could look into the -package readily. - -Mr. DULLES. You would have to take something off, some string or -something in order to get into the package? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I now show you Commission Exhibit 364 which is a replica -of a sack which was prepared by authorities in Dallas, and I also show -you another sack which is Commission Exhibit 142, and ask you if you -have ever seen in or around your garage in Irving, Tex., any sacks -similar to those? - -Mr. PAINE. No; I haven't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you seen any paper in your garage in Irving prior to -November 22, 1963, or at any other place, at your home in Irving, Tex., -that is similar to the paper of which those sacks are made? - -Mr. PAINE. No, I haven't; we have some rugs, most of them are wrapped -in polyethylene. I couldn't be sure that one of the smaller ones wasn't -wrapped in paper. To my knowledge, we had no free kraft paper of that -size. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Will you examine the tape on the sacks and tell me -whether you have any tape similar to that or whether you have seen any -tape similar to that in your garage before November 22, 1963? - -Mr. PAINE. We have some tape in a drawer of my desk at the house, my -recollection is that the tape is a 2-inch tape, gum tape. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And the tape on the sack appears to be three? - -Mr. PAINE. This is 3-inch. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever observe in your garage any scraps of paper -or scraps of tape similar to the materials used to construct those -sacks? - -Mr. PAINE. No, I did not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Either before November 22, 1963, or afterwards? - -Mr. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When you moved the sacks, the blanket, the package that -was wrapped in the blanket in your garage, were you able to determine -whether or not the object inside the sack was also wrapped in paper? - -Mr. PAINE. I would have said that it was not. When we practiced -wrapping that rifle yesterday I would have guessed that any paper -around the barrel in there, which I could feel with some clarity, would -have crinkled. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And to your recollection there was no crinkling in the -package wrapped with the blanket? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. It was a very quiet package. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Yesterday we did try to and did wrap the rifle previously -referred to in our testimony in the blanket which you have just -examined. Would you tell the Commission about that? - -Mr. PAINE. I tried wrapping it to the shape and size and bulk that I -remembered the package. I had a little difficulty, it got quite close -to the right shape by wrapping it at an angle. The rifle was laid in -the blanket somewhat on a bias to the rectangle blanket form. Then -there was a small end of the barrel, I didn't discover how you could -fold that over to tie it with string without making it bulkier than I -remember. But the package came quite close to what I remembered. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now on the basis of wrapping that rifle in the blanket, -would you say that it was probable, that the package that was in your -garage was in fact that rifle wrapped in that blanket? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes, I think it was or a rifle of that size. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You said just a moment ago that you saw the rifle we -have had here this morning or a similar rifle shown to Marina Oswald -sometime shortly after the assassination. Would you tell us the -circumstances surrounding that event? - -Mr. PAINE. We went to the police station that evening, and probably -about 9 o'clock, I saw the rifle being shown to Marina. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This was at the Dallas police station? - -Mr. PAINE. Dallas police station. Ruth was present, and Mamantov was -present. - -Representative FORD. Who was the last one? - -Mr. PAINE. Ilya Mamantov, I think Ilya is the first name, but Mr. -Mamantov. He teaches parttime, parttime teaching in Russian, was -familiar to Ruth as the son-in-law of her tutor. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any of the conversation that was going on in -the room in which Marina was being shown this rifle? - -Mr. PAINE. No, no. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not your wife heard them? - -Mr. PAINE. My wife, of course, was right there. And heard the whole -thing. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she subsequently tell you what occurred? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes, she did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you? - -Mr. PAINE. She told me that Marina wasn't able to identify that rifle -as the one that Lee had. She knew that Lee had a rifle, and I think -she knew it was wrapped in a package like this. I think Ruth reported -that she had, Marina had, opened up a corner of the blanket and looked -in and seen part of the butt, and hadn't liked the idea of rifles, the -rifles made her a little uncomfortable and hadn't looked at it further. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This was at the time the rifle was presumably wrapped in -the blanket in your garage, correct? - -Mr. PAINE. I assumed that. I didn't ask that question. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife tell you anything more about what happened -at that time? - -Mr. PAINE. You will have to jog my memory if you have any specific -questions. I don't recall. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That is the best of your recollection now that you have -given us? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. How much would you say that the package that you saw in -your garage weighed? - -Mr. PAINE. I reported earlier to the FBI 7 or 8 pounds. I never at the -time thought of the weight of it as I was moving it around. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In your previous discussions or conversations with the -FBI did you ever tell them in word or substance that if there had been -a rifle in the package that was located in your garage that you did not -think it could have a telescopic sight mounted on it? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't recall having said that. I don't believe I would -have known that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall any discussions of that sort with the FBI -at all. Did they ask you about that? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes, I think they asked me coming out to find out when and -where and how the sight may have been put on but I never felt the -package in the center. I always grabbed it at these two ends. - -Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your recollection you never told the FBI -that you didn't think the package contained a rifle with a telescopic -sight? - -Mr. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever observe or hear prior to the assassination -that Lee Oswald had been practicing with a rifle? - -Mr. PAINE. No, I didn't know prior to the assassination, we didn't know -he had a rifle. I had supposed from my conversation with him back on -Neely Street that he would like to have a rifle but I didn't gather -that he did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Aside from whether or not you knew that he had a rifle, -did you ever hear or observe him practicing with a rifle? - -Mr. PAINE. No, I did not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with the Sport's Drome Rifle Range in -Grand Prairie, Tex? - -Mr. PAINE. I think I know about where it is. No, I don't even know -where it is. I know the race track is there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever been there? - -Mr. PAINE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that Oswald received mail at your house from -Irving, Tex? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what kind of mail he received? - -Mr. PAINE. I suppose he used it as the mailing address for most of his -mail until he would receive, get a permanent address, so he received -the Daily Worker there, or The Worker, and also, I didn't see it come, -I don't generally see the mail that arrives there. Most of my mail -would arrive at that address even though I was living somewhere else -because I also didn't feel permanent in my other addresses, so Ruth -would collect the mail and separated mine into a separate pile. I -didn't see the Militant arrive. I did see various Russian magazines, -Agitateur, maybe a very large one. A very large one and the Daily -Worker, The Worker. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss these publications with Oswald? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes, we talked with regard to the Daily Worker. He said -that, he told me, that you could tell what they wanted you to do, they, -a word I dislike, what they wanted you to do by reading between the -lines, reading the thing and doing a little reading between the lines. -He then gave me an issue to look and see. I wanted to see if I could -read between the lines and see what they wanted you to do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you read the particular issue that he referred to? - -Mr. PAINE. I tried to. I don't think I had very much patience to go -through it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what particular issue it was? - -Mr. PAINE. No, I didn't notice. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you set the date of this discussion that you had with -Oswald? - -Mr. PAINE. That was fairly soon after his coming back. So let's say the -middle of October. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he discuss with you, your ability or inability to -determine what they wanted you to do by reading between the lines after -you had read the publication? - -Mr. PAINE. No, I just handed it back to him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anything else said between you at that time on -that subject? - -Mr. PAINE. He asked me how did I like it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say? - -Mr. PAINE. And I tried to be polite. I said it was awful extreme, I -thought. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he respond to that? - -Mr. PAINE. I think that was the end of it. - -Mr. DULLES. Do I understand that this was, this Daily Worker was, -mailed---- - -Mr. PAINE. To 515. - -Mr. DULLES. To your address in Irving? - -Mr. PAINE. That is right. Or Ruth's address. - -Mr. DULLES. It wasn't readdressed but it was directly sent? - -Mr. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. DULLES. He gave your address for The Worker to come to? - -Mr. PAINE. That is right. - -Representative FORD. What prompted him to hand you The Worker? Was -there any preface to the actual handing of it to you? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. I think I was asking him, I would like to, I wanted to -see some literature or what he liked to read or something like that. I -think it was as a response to some question or inquiry of mine. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether this was addressed to him in care of -you or Ruth Paine or was it just sent at the Paine address? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't remember for certain. I would think it would have -just been Oswald at that address but I don't remember. It may have -been. There were enough of those packages but I just don't remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you draw any inference at the time as a result of -this conversation with Oswald about his statement that you could tell -what they wanted you to do by reading between the lines? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, it made me realize that he would like to be active -in some kind of--activist. It made me also feel that he wasn't very -well connected with a group or he wouldn't have such a tenuous way of -communication, and I thought it was rather childish to someone like -Dick Tracy, attract a child to Dick Tracy, to think that that was his -bona fide way of being communicated or being a member of this Communist -cause or something. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any other discussions with him about -literature that he received? - -Mr. PAINE. I didn't know. Other literature, I was somewhat interested -in what the Russian publications were saying but I didn't take it up -with him. I wanted Ruth to translate those. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever observe any Cuban literature? - -Mr. PAINE. No, I didn't. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know that he ever received any such -literature? - -Mr. PAINE. No, I never, until after the assassination, I had never -thought of Cuba either in connection with Oswald or in connection with -the Communists or the Communist Party. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I show you Commission Exhibit 128 which is ENCO Map of -the Dallas-Fort Worth area, and ask you if you recognize that map. - -Mr. PAINE. This is the kind of map that I always used, stopping in -stations when I am out of one so I always have one in my car, and when -the FBI showed me this particular map, which I trust is the same one I -looked at before. I found on the back side a mark where it shows the -whole map of the whole area, the Dallas-Fort Worth area, a little mark -where our house is, that is the kind of mark that I would make when I -was trying to buy some land earlier and had in mind for a long time and -I wanted to find the location that was accessible to the places I would -then want to go. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us---- - -Mr. PAINE. This mark is still here. - -Representative FORD. This is the mark or can you identify that mark -that you placed on this map? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes, I think I see a mark here of the sort which looks -reasonable to me. I think it is the only mark on this side of the map. - -Generally, I didn't make marks on the other side of the map. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In your statement referring to one side of the map -you were referring to the side that shows a map of the entire Fort -Worth-Dallas area, is that correct? - -Mr. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you say as best you can see there is only one mark on -this side of the map? - -Mr. PAINE. That is the only one that is here, that I remember having -found. I don't remember finding another one. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember putting that mark on the map? - -Mr. PAINE. I remember putting--I think I put this kind of mark on more -than one map. That is our house. It then helps locate it with regard to -all the arteries and what not that lead to various places. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You do think then it is probable that you did place the -mark on the map that indicates the location of your house in Irving, -Tex.; is that correct? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes, I think that is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not Oswald ever came into -possession of this map? - -Mr. PAINE. And Ruth gave Oswald a map to--she told me she gave him a -map, and this is the kind we have around the house, the best one she -could get in the service station, to help him find a job, or help him -when he was searching for a job. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any other conversations with your wife -about the map before the assassination? - -Mr. PAINE. No, I don't believe she told me she had given him the map. I -don't believe we discussed it at all. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you open the map to the portion that shows the area -of Dallas. I call your attention to a mark at the intersection of Boll -Street and San Jacinto, and ask you if you have any recollection of -placing that mark on the map? - -Mr. PAINE. No, I don't have any recollection of placing that mark on -the map. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any circumstances that might make it -likely that you placed that mark on the map? - -Mr. PAINE. I could have placed that mark on the map when I was looking -for properties. I went down to the courthouse to get plats of the areas -that I was thinking of buying, and they had a copy of the plat, and so -they sent it out late on Saturday, short of 12 o'clock, and just short -of closing, and it was a reproduction company at that address or near -that address. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the L. L. Ridgway Co.? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. That is the company that I am referring to. I don't -know exactly. - -Mr. LIEBELER. But it is near the intersection we have just referred to? - -Mr. PAINE. I will take your word for that. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know that it is? - -Mr. PAINE. No, I don't know. I think the FBI man said it was. I hadn't -looked into it and didn't check it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You haven't any knowledge at this point whether the -Ridgway company is in this intersection or not? - -Mr. PAINE. I remember it is right beside the expressway and in about -that area. I don't remember the names of the roads. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think it is probable or improbable that you placed -the mark on the map, the one we have just been talking about, at Boll -and San Jacinto Streets? - -Mr. PAINE. I remember in asking the clerk where it was, and I had a map -of this sort, that was also in August when I was looking for places. I -would have guessed I would not. I would have been able to see where it -was and know in my mind where I wanted to go. - -Mr. DULLES. Is that the same kind of a mark or a different kind of mark -that is on the other side of the map to which we have just referred, -the area map? - -Mr. PAINE. It is a different mark. That mark that is on the other side -of the map to which we have just referred, the area map, was our house. -So I made a little square that I can see and indicate a house rather -than--generally I don't make marks on maps. I look up where I want to -go and I go. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife tell you when she had given this map to -Oswald? - -Mr. PAINE. I suppose she gave it very soon after he came back and -started looking for work. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you said it was August of 1963 when you were looking -to find this reproduction place; is that correct? - -Mr. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I call your attention to a mark on Hillcrest and Asbury, -and I ask you if you put that mark on the map? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't recall making that mark. I think it is different -from the other mark, and it is--if I were to make a mark that is more -the way I would make a mark. It also happens to be the cafeteria where -I like to eat, where you can get all you want for a dollar there, and -it is a very good meal. So I would be interested in that, in locating -it. Here is one of the places where I was thinking of buying property. - -Mr. DULLES. Is there a mark there at that place where you were -interested in buying property? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't think there is. I almost guessed that I didn't -have that map at that time. Also I was not living--I would guess for -a further reason that I would not have this map on the time of that -August date was because I hadn't been living--I had been living in this -apartment, and I had a map over there, and I probably didn't have the -same map that Ruth had around her house. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So you think it is probably likely you didn't place any -marks on that map other than the one indicating your home? - -Mr. PAINE. That is correct. In other words, I think that mark was -placed there quite a long time back, because I have been interested in -this locating of property for several years. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is the mark at the Hillcrest Avenue spot, a mark of the -type that you usually make? - -Mr. PAINE. And, as I say, I don't usually make a mark, but I think I -might more likely have made that kind of mark, more than some of the -others--somebody else has put marks here with a ball-point pen which -are not the kind I would make. - -Mr. LIEBELER. In reviewing this map with the FBI, were there any other -marks on the map that it was developed that you possibly put on the map -other than the ones we have discussed? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't now remember any others. This one of the cafeteria -there is not exactly at the right spot. - -Mr. LIEBELER. The mark at Hillcrest Avenue? - -Mr. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As you look at the map now do you see any other marks -which you think you might have put on the map? - -Mr. PAINE. No. We went over it at mealtime in considerable detail, he -having located most of the marks he could find on the map--no, I guess -it was still marked up like this. We didn't find anything that I can -remember there that I might have put on there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, on the basis of your knowledge of Oswald and your -meeting with him, and your familiarity with him prior to the time of -the assassination, did you form an opinion about him as to whether or -not he would be likely to commit an act such as this, or whether he -would be likely to take the life of any human being? - -Mr. PAINE. It was a question we had to consider when we considered -having Marina at our house. So Ruth and I discussed that, whether he -was a dangerous person, and he didn't seem to be dangerous. Of course, -I also felt that I wasn't a particular opponent or foe of his. Helping -his family we were quite free and would let him, roughly, think of our -arguments. I talked about getting angry, but, for the most part, it was -a cordial relationship, so I didn't sense--he didn't display hostility -to me or to Ruth, and he was nice with the children, and while they -were living with us, he was nice to Marina also. He was during this -time when he returned from Mexico, he was quite a reasonable person. He -was only unreasonable the first time I had met him. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you have this discussion with your wife -concerning whether or not you should let Marina live with you? Was that -before they came back from New Orleans? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes, it was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you concluded at that time there was no reason why -Marina should not come there; is that right? - -Mr. PAINE. That is right. Of course, Ruth went in and sounded them out -rather cautiously and reported to me also his facial expressions and -what-not when she was suggesting this, and he seemed to be glad of that -rather than worried. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after Marina came and lived at your house, Oswald -was there during parts of the months October and November. Did you -change your opinion in this respect or was it reinforced, on the basis -of his activities and your observation of him during that period? - -Mr. PAINE. It was reinforced. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You did not think him to be a violent person or one who -would be likely to commit an act such as assassinating the President? - -Mr. PAINE. I didn't--I saw he was a bitter person, he was bitter and -quite a lot of very negative views of people in the world around him, -very little charity in his view toward anybody, but I thought he was -harmless. - -Representative FORD. Was this a different reaction from the one you had -had at your first meeting or your first acquaintance? - -Mr. PAINE. When we first became acquainted I was somewhat shocked, -especially that he would speak so harshly to his wife in front of a -complete stranger, and it was at that point, or at that time, that -I was persuaded I would like to free Marina from her bondage and -servitude to this man. He seemed to me he was keeping her, not helping -her to learn the language, keeping her vassal to him, and this offended -me, so at that point I became interested in helping her escape from -him. Of course, I was not going to try to force that. I didn't want to -be separating a family that could get along. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This bitterness that you detected following his return -from Mexico, was that a new reaction? - -Mr. PAINE. No. That bitterness had existed all along. He also had been -disagreeable to his wife, cruel to her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I see. - -Mr. PAINE. Not allowing her any personality, a mind of her own, and -making sharp jibes at her. - -Mr. DULLES. And that continued awhile? - -Mr. PAINE. That only existed that first night in March or April. - -Mr. DULLES. It did not continue when Marina was at your house in Irving? - -Mr. PAINE. When Marina came to our house she gained in health and -weight. She started to look better and it looked to me as if the strain -was off the family relationship. They were not quarreling. They billed -and cooed. She sat on his lap and he said sweet nothings in her ear. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you get any information from any source with regard to -the situation while they were living in New Orleans that she wanted to -get away from him? - -Mr. PAINE. Oh, yes; well, Ruth had told me when she came back from -delivering Marina to New Orleans, she had gone down there expecting -to spend a week, seeing New Orleans, and it was a pretty long trip, -and found the household, she reported to me, so uncomfortable living -there. They were fighting, I mean, so difficult. She wanted to leave -right away, and she left in a few days, left a lot sooner than she had -expected to leave. - -Mr. DULLES. Then your wife took her back, as you recall? - -Mr. PAINE. Then, my wife came home, and then she went back to Naushon, -Mass., for a couple of months in the summer, and on her way back to -Texas stopped in New Orleans, found him out of work, and invited Marina -to come back with her right then. - -Mr. DULLES. What did she learn at that time about Oswald? What did she -learn about Lee Oswald's treatment of Marina, anything new or different -at the time she stopped by New Orleans, and then went back? - -Mr. PAINE. She, perhaps, saw he loved her because she said that the -parting, he genuinely seemed so happy to have Ruth take her back. In -other words, he seemed to be exhibiting some concern for Marina, who -was with child, and the child would be adequately taken care of, and -sorry--it was a cheerful parting or something. She saw human qualities -in him at that time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say after Marina returned to your home in Irving, -and after Oswald came back to Dallas that their relationship improved -even more, and Oswald seemed to be under less strain than he had been -prior to that time; is that correct? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, I don't--I only know two times, at the time in April -when they came to dinner with us, and he was rough, crude, uncivil to -her, and Ruth's report of how they were while she was trying to live in -this house in New Orleans, when she just moved in. - -She also reported to me, and she will tell you this though that -apparently Lee had wanted to make her happy in this house, had liked -the house, said it was in the old famous quarter of New Orleans, -and Ruth could see that Marina was unhappy. She thought it was -uncomfortable in this darkness, and Ruth thought it was a tragedy. Both -points of view were valid depending on which way you looked at it, so -she saw that Lee apparently had wanted to make her happy, wanted her to -like the house when she arrived in New Orleans, and had called her out -there. She had also been eager to go out. - -Apparently Ruth reported to me when he called from New Orleans, saying -he had a job and "come live with me, come back with me," Marina had -been very happy. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you specifically consider the question before you let -Marina move into your home as to whether Oswald was a violent person? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes, specifically. I talked it over with Frank. Frank raised -the question also. So I talked it over with Ruth several times, and -Frank brought up the question, and I thought of it myself. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you concluded on the basis of these discussions and -your knowledge of Oswald, your collective knowledge of Oswald, at that -time that he was not a violent person; is that correct? - -Mr. PAINE. That he wasn't going to stab Ruth or Marina. - -Mr. LIEBELER. That he wasn't going to exhibit any violence to any of -you people? - -Mr. PAINE. That is right. He wouldn't be a danger to Ruth. That was -partly based, first, on the fact that we were not--we were careful to -avoid putting him in a position that he felt offended. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't consider at the time that you were considering -Oswald's possible violence toward you and your group whether he might -exhibit violence to some other person? - -Mr. PAINE. That is correct; yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You formed no judgment about that one way or the other? - -Mr. PAINE. That is correct. We assumed or felt that--if we handled him -with a gentle or considerate manner that he wouldn't be a danger to us. - -Mr. DULLES. In the light of subsequent information and developments, -and the information which is publicly available, have you reached any -other conclusions as to or any conclusions as to whether or not Lee -Oswald was the assassin of the President? - -Mr. PAINE. When the police first asked me did I think he had done it, -my dubiousness in my mind arose from not seeing how this could fit, how -this could help his cause, and I didn't think he was irrational. It -did not seem to me that he could shoot a man as he would shoot a tin -can. Difficulty of a person shooting another person was not the reason -for my doubting, and the circumstantial evidence seemed quite powerful -to me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Seemed quite powerful? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. But then I realized with subsequent people calling from -all over the country, somebody had said it is only a single-shot rifle, -and I recognize one little fact like that could alter my thinking -entirely. Somebody else said there was a shot through the windshield of -the car. We went down to the place and looked around, and he thought -that--he had a theory that the man had been shot from a manhole in the -street, so I recognized that my views could change with evidence. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have a view on Oswald's guilt at this time? - -Mr. PAINE. Most of these other things have proved to be false. It -seems to be a clip-fed rifle. The man who thought it was shot from -the place, I went down and saw the diagram drawn by Life seemed to be -quite accurate so far as I could reconstruct the thing, and there was -confusion about the number of bullets. I never did discover--it didn't -quite make sense, but for the most part, I accept it, the common view -that he did it. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you on the morning of November 22, 1963? - -Mr. PAINE. I was having, at the time of the assassination I was at -work, of course, but at the time of the assassination I was in the -cafeteria associated with the bowling alley having lunch. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who was with you? - -Mr. PAINE. A student, a co-op student called Dave Noel happened to be -with me. We happened to be talking about the character of assassins at -that lunchtime, of all things. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to the time you heard of the assassination? - -Mr. PAINE. That is right. When we first sat down at the meal we -were discussing it, beside the point, except unless you believe in -extrasensory perception, but we happened to just--we didn't have enough -historical knowledge to explore it, but I just raised the question -and tried to pursue it, and then dropped it, and then a waitress came -and said the President had been shot, and I thought she was cracking -a nasty joke, and went over to a cluster of people listening around a -transistor set, and heard there was some commotion of this sort from -the tone of the voice of the transistor set, and we went back to the -lab where there is a good radio, and followed the news from there. - -When it was mentioned, the Texas School Book Depository Building was -mentioned, then I told Frank Krystinik that that was where Lee Oswald -worked, and then in a few minutes he came back and said, he asked me, -didn't I think I had better call the FBI and tell them. - -So over a period of about 20 minutes, I trying to carry on work in a -foolish way, or talking or discussing other things or something, we -were discussing this problem, and I thought, I said to myself, or said -to him, that the FBI already knew he worked there. Everybody would know -he was a black sheep, and I didn't want to--a friend or one of the few -friends in position of friendship to him, I didn't want to--join the -mob barking at his heels or join in his harassment, so I declined. I -didn't tell Frank that he couldn't call the FBI, but I said I wasn't -going to do it, so I didn't. - -I called Ruth immediately after getting back just to see that she -would turn on the radio and be clued in with the news, but this was -before the Texas School Book Depository Building was mentioned, to my -knowledge, and she was already watching the news. So we communicated -nothing at that time. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether your luncheon companion did or did not -telephone the FBI? - -Mr. PAINE. This is not the luncheon companion. This is Dave Noel. Frank -Krystinik brings his lunch, and he eats his lunch at the lab. - -Mr. DULLES. At the lab? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Paine, would you give us the nature of the -conversation you were having concerning assassination prior to the -assassination. First let me ask you was anybody else present beside -you and your companion at the time of the conversation? - -Mr. PAINE. No, just he and I. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us the general essence of the conversation as best -you can recall. - -Mr. PAINE. There had been talk, of course, people, I don't get a -newspaper, but I do listen to the radio. I know what my news source is, -it is mostly magazines. So there was some anxiety about the President -coming to Dallas-Fort Worth, and it appeared that this thought was in -the minds of several others, I was not singular in this way. It had -been expected, of course, that trouble would come from the right-wing, -and I was wondering whether there was any danger, I suppose, that -is somebody who could be drummed up by local feeling. The number of -anti-Kennedy jokes cracked was quite large in Texas, and so I was -wondering, you know, what kind of a person would kill a President, and -I don't think Dave Noel knew anything about it, so it was just musing -or conjecturing on my part. I certainly didn't think of Lee Oswald. I -didn't expect it from that cause, from that end of the spectrum. - -Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first think of Lee Oswald in connection with -the assassination? - -Mr. PAINE. As soon as I heard the Texas School Book Depository Building -mentioned. Now, I did not know that--it never occurred to me, I didn't -realize, there was a building there on his route. I had seen this -warehouse building from the expressway, you can see the name written in -large letters, but that is the way from any main thoroughfare. So I had -supposed, I never put--except when it was mentioned that that was the -building he shot from or was the building that the shot was fired from, -then I realized I did know where he worked. - -Mr. DULLES. You had not been at Irving that previous night? - -Mr. PAINE. No, I had not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You knew Oswald worked at the Texas School Book -Depository Building? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes, I did. - -Mr. LIEBELER. As soon as you heard that that building was involved in -the assassination, you thought of Oswald, did you not? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What did you think? - -Mr. PAINE. Wondering whether Oswald would do it. And the argument -against it, the only argument against it, was just I didn't think he -was irrational, or it seemed to me to be irrational. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And you asked yourself the question of whether or not -Oswald would do it solely on the basis of your knowledge that he worked -in that building, is that correct? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. Well, I didn't realize he worked in that building, but -then I realized I didn't know--I knew he worked at that organization. I -didn't realize there was a building on Elm Street there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to your wife after you heard that the -Texas School Book Depository Building was involved in the shooting, -and before you subsequently heard that Oswald had been arrested in -connection with the assassination? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't believe so. I think I called her only once to see -that she was listening to the news, and then I assumed she would know -all that I knew, and as soon as she heard that I supposed she would -be wondering the same thing. It wasn't many minutes later though, it -seemed to me, that the name Lee Oswald was mentioned--in the theater. -The newsmen didn't connect it up at all, but that is all I needed to -send me home. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So then you left for your home in Irving? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You left for home before there had been any public -connection made between Oswald and the assassination, is that correct? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, of course, the police were reporting they had suspects -here and suspects there, were chasing suspects over here, and here was -a man who had shot Officer Tippit. They didn't even mention him as a -suspect, but there was another murder coincident in time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So the news broadcast connected Oswald with Officer -Tippit? - -Mr. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you then consider again whether or not Oswald had -been involved in the assassination? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, that was too much to have his name mentioned away from -his place of work as having killed somebody; the stew was too thick to -stay at work, and I was shaken too much, anyway. - -Mr. LIEBELER. So your testimony is that you first thought of Oswald -after you heard of the Texas School Book Depository Building being -involved in the assassination, but you concluded at that time that -Oswald was probably not involved in the assassination; is that correct? - -Mr. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is there any other reason other than the fact Oswald -was at that building that made you think of him when you heard that -building mentioned in connection with the assassination? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, yes; Oswald, of course, stands--he is a black sheep -in society; I mean he is, if you were to pick out the singular person -among the employees there, he is the one, or he is probably the one. -I don't happen to know the people who worked there. I gather from him -there were about 30 people working there in a fairly large building. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What was your state of mind when you heard that the Texas -School Book Depository Building was involved in the shooting, did you -deeply suspect Oswald had been involved, or was it just a passing -thought? Tell us some more about that if you can, recreate your state -of mind. - -Mr. PAINE. I think I was nervous. I know I was trying to assemble -a vibration meter and could not put in the screws or I kept making -mistakes. I was preoccupied. Of course, the darn fools, we should have -all stopped to mourn the President, but it is kind of a habit, I wasn't -accustomed, habit drove us on, very unhappy or unresolved emotional -time. I thought, firstly, Frank was quite insistent, he didn't just ask -me once, but several times, whether I didn't think I should call the -FBI. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he thought you should call the FBI? - -Mr. PAINE. Well, he would have, but he is of that nature. At one time -he had seen someone taking pictures of Hensley Field, which has signs -on the outside "No Photographs Allowed," and I said I believe more in -freedom. It seems to me if the field doesn't want the pictures taken, -they had better put up a big fence. But he had gone ahead and called -up the base commander, and the base commander knew the man. That was -his normal mode of behavior, whereas my normal defense is of the -individual, and I didn't think--I would not like to, if Lee is falsely -accused, I wouldn't want to be jumping on him with the mob. If he is -properly, if he is guilty, he will be found. They know he works there, -he is connected to us. I couldn't contribute to his capture, so that my -withholding information wouldn't harm the search for the right man, and -having jumped on him unfairly I might be ashamed of that later on. So -that was my feeling in regard to whether I should call the FBI. I think -I just kind of felt cold sweats or something like that in regard to -the question could he have done that thing. I don't think I went much -beyond that, could he, could he. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did Krystinik indicate to you any reason for his desire -to call the FBI? Did he suspect Oswald had done this on the basis of -his knowledge of Oswald? - -Mr. PAINE. It seemed to me very reasonable that he should think so. Of -course, I don't think the others were so sharply aware, the others in -the lab were so sharply aware that we were wrestling with this problem. - -The CHAIRMAN. He didn't say anything to you, he didn't tell you any -other reason? - -Mr. PAINE. No, he didn't; but his reaction seemed perfectly reasonable -to me. - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes. - -Mr. PAINE. I felt the same one--if you were to pick out somebody in -that building, it was a rather singular coincidence we knew this man -who was so negative to our society and not an ingratiating person, not -a person with compassion or something. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What time did you arrive at your home in Irving? - -Mr. PAINE. I would guess about 3 or 3:30, somewhere in that -neighborhood. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there when you arrived? - -Mr. PAINE. The police, the Dallas police mostly were there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Your wife was there? - -Mr. PAINE. My wife and Marina. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you said when you arrived? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't know. No, I don't remember what I said. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you say in words or substance, "I came right home -as soon as I heard the shots were fired from the Texas School Book -Depository Building?" - -Mr. PAINE. No, I came right home as soon as I heard Lee Oswald -mentioned. I did not come home. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember saying that you came right home as soon -as you heard that Oswald was involved? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes, I think I said something like that. Ruth asked me. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you mentioned before that after you arrived home you -went into the garage when the police officers went into your garage. -Was there any indication to you at that time that the garage had been -previously searched by the police or anyone else? - -Mr. PAINE. This I don't remember very well. But, as I remember, this -was not the first time we had gone in there. I think, perhaps, they -went into--I don't remember, but I don't think it was the first time -they had gone in. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You said when you did go into the garage, however, the -blanket was there in the garage? - -Mr. PAINE. I think it was. It was still there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us, to the best of your recollection, what was said -in respect of the blanket and search of the garage, as you say. Before -you answer that question, let me ask you, did your wife go with you -into the garage with the police officers? - -Mr. PAINE. I think they were further in in the garage. I think I -stayed--the band saw is fairly close to--there is an overhead door to -the garage, and close to the under edge of that when it is pulled up. -In other words, it is fairly close to the outside in the garage, and I -think I stayed somewhat near the door entering the garage, which is the -inside end of the garage. - -Mr. LIEBELER. And your wife was with the police officers further in? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes, I think she was. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Was Marina Oswald there? - -Mr. PAINE. Failure of recollection, I would say, yes. But it is a very -fuzzy recollection. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us where the blanket was found? - -Mr. PAINE. It doesn't really make sense as to why they would still -leave the blanket there, and these things would have been discussed -at that time, but I kind of remember a kind of silhouette situation, -a police officer either lifted up or kicked this blanket, which was -in exactly the same location that the rifle, the package had been, -underneath the saw and somewhat in the sawdust. And I think he put it -back there. He may have asked me at that time, "Did you know what was -in this?" - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that? - -Mr. PAINE. And that is why I think they asked me, it may have been as -early as that, whether it was a rifle, "Do you think it could have been -a rifle?" I don't remember how it was posed, but I probably answered -when it was suggested, it was a rifle, and there they suggested it was -a rifle, because they had already learned from Marina that he had had -a rifle, and it had been, perhaps, had learned it had been in that -blanket. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know they had previously asked Marina about that? - -Mr. PAINE. No; but I think--I'm just telling you my impressions here, -very fuzzy impressions. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead. - -Mr. PAINE. My impression was that they asked me if I knew what was in -this blanket, or he asked me, and then he asked me if it could be a -rifle, and I probably responded, yes. It didn't take long once the -rifle was suggested as the object to fit this puzzle together, this -puzzle of the pieces that I had been trying to assemble in the package. - -Mr. LIEBELER. What else happened? - -Mr. PAINE. We went out of the garage, I don't think he took the blanket -then even. - -Mr. LIEBELER. This is the Dallas police officer? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes, plainclothesman, wearing black hats; one of them had -one of those Texas hats. He collected all the useless stuff in our -house, he went around and collected all the files of Ruth, and a -drawer of cameras, mostly belonging to me. I tried to tell him one of -the files contained our music or something like that, and the more I -suggested it, that he not bother taking those, the more insistent he -was in taking those objects. - -So with the various boxes and piles of stuff, mostly of our stuff, -we got in the car and went off, and he was quite irked that we had -wasted quite enough time around there, he said, and Ruth was irked, and -everybody was irked by it. He wouldn't let us be helpful, and thought -we were--he became angry when we tried to be helpful or something that -we would suggest that he should do. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you how they happened to come to your house? - -Mr. PAINE. No. I don't remember. I think I may have asked it, "You -found us pretty quickly," or somebody said this, but I don't remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any other conversations about this -blanket? - -Mr. PAINE. No. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did anyone notice any scraps of paper or tape similar -to the ones of which these sacks were constructed that we previously -identified, particularly Commission 142? - -Mr. PAINE. Not that I remember. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything else that happened during this period -prior to the time the police left that you think would be significant -or that we ought to know about? - -Mr. PAINE. No; very little happened. We just bundled up and went. -Marina was--whimpered a little bit, but mostly it was dry. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You went with the police? - -Mr. PAINE. We went with the police in several cars and didn't come back -until quite a lot later that night, didn't go into the garage again; -didn't want the Life reporters to take photographs, so I don't think -they went in the garage to take photographs. Several--their possessions -were searched by various waves of succeeding policemen, Dallas, and -Irving and FBI, and what not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Now, there has been a report that on November 23, 1963, -there was a telephone call between a man and a woman, between the -numbers of your residence and the number of your office, in which the -man was reported to have said in words or substance, "We both know who -is responsible for the assassination." Have you been asked about this -before? - -Mr. PAINE. I had heard that--I didn't know it was associated with our -numbers. I had heard a report that some telephone operator had listened -in on a conversation somewhere, I don't know where it was. I thought it -was some other part of the country. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to your wife on the telephone at any time -during Saturday, November 23, on the telephone? - -Mr. PAINE. I was in the police station again, and I think I called her -from there. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make any remark to the effect that you knew who -was responsible? - -Mr. PAINE. And I don't know who the assassin is or was; no, so I did -not. - -Mr. LIEBELER. You are positive in your recollection that you made no -such remark? - -Mr. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us your impression and your opinion of -the relationship that had developed between Marina Oswald and your -wife during the period that they knew each other up to the time of -the assassination and subsequent to the assassination when, as we -discussed briefly yesterday, there came to be a cooling off between -them or a disenchantment. - -Mr. PAINE. Ruth was mostly learning the language, so she was limited -in her vocabulary and couldn't talk about--she explained to me she -couldn't talk about--political or economic subjects. It was a topic on -which her vocabulary didn't serve her, but it did appear she had spoken -of quite a number of things. Marina had told her about movies she had -seen in the Soviet Union, but I thought that the knowledge, Ruth's -knowledge, I suppose Ruth's knowledge of Marina was fairly shallow. And -Marina was quite reserved. Now, it may have been more so when I was in -the house that she was not as much at ease as she was, perhaps, with -Ruth herself. - -Of course, Marina was in a position where she always had to be polite. -Ruth is easy to get along with, however, so I didn't expect Marina to -have difficulty. But I didn't think Ruth and Marina were bosom friends -or buddies, but neither, of course, I didn't mean to suggest the -opposite. - -Ruth was enjoying Marina's company and I was glad to have Marina -staying with Ruth. It actually reduced the cost. Ruth saved money. -The bills were less while Marina was there, and Ruth, in general, was -happier. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn---- - -Mr. PAINE. I didn't think Ruth knew Marina very well, but I don't know -how well she knew her. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn subsequently or are you aware that -subsequent to the assassination there has been a disenchantment or some -strain between Marina and Ruth? - -Mr. PAINE. Several things happened. Ruth was put out when she learned -Marina knew afterward that Oswald had taken a shot at Walker, if that -were true. She thought that was quite morally remiss on Marina's part, -and so we talked about that thing. - -Mr. DULLES. When did she learn that? - -Mr. PAINE. This was in the newspaper report. - -Mr. DULLES. She only learned it through the newspaper? - -Mr. PAINE. That is correct. So we discussed the mitigating -circumstances of Marina not knowing the language and not knowing who -she could go to if she wanted to stay in this country and, perhaps--we -believe there were extenuating circumstances which would, perhaps, -excuse Marina. Ruth was troubled about that, and so she wrote a series -of quite a number of letters, each one referring to previous letters, -trying to discover whether they were being withheld, thinking Marina -was a responsible person or normally civil person, she would normally -respond to or at least acknowledge receipt of them. - -So Ruth didn't know whether she was receiving them or not, and had -another--some encounters with Martin and Thorne which didn't put her at -ease. She still didn't know whether Marina was receiving them. She saw -only some of the checks had been signed by Thorne rather than Marina. -Thorne had said that Marina didn't say he had power of attorney, and -Marina was trying to do everything that she could which, at least, she -could sign her checks, checks or gifts. - -So there were these indications. Ruth was very much in the dark, not -knowing why she had received no communication from Marina, and having -conflicting reports from Martin. Martin said she had a phone right -beside her if she wanted to call. - -Mr. DULLES. How did she receive these checks? - -Mr. PAINE. I guess Ruth--some of the checks came to Ruth as gifts to -her, and Ruth would write her own check so she got her own stub back. - -Mr. DULLES. I see. - -Mr. PAINE. Therefore, Ruth had this question of whether she had -offended Marina or whether Marina had done something that offended Ruth -or whether Marina didn't like Ruth and had never let on. This would be -a great blow to her ego. It had Ruth in great periods of depression and -anxiety. - -Mr. DULLES. Did either you or your wife, to your knowledge, know Robert -Oswald? - -Mr. PAINE. We only met him for the first time on the night of the -assassination. We both liked him at that time. - -Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Paine, is there any other subject that we haven't -covered in the testimony that you think the Commission ought to know -about in connection with this assassination? - -Mr. PAINE. I don't believe there is anything else that I know. - -Mr. LIEBELER. I have no more questions. - -The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any questions, Mr. Dulles? - -Mr. DULLES. The only question I have in mind is as to what took place -as far as Mr. Paine is concerned on the night of the assassination. -Were you in the police station? - -Mr. PAINE. We went down to the police and stayed there until about 8 or -9 o'clock. Then Marguerite came home with us and spent the night. - -Mr. DULLES. You didn't see Lee Harvey at that time, did you? - -Mr. PAINE. They asked me and I declined to see him at that time. I -changed my mind. When they immediately asked me, I declined. I did not -know what he would ask me, so I did not see him. - -Mr. DULLES. You did not see him? - -Mr. PAINE. No. - -Mr. DULLES. Did your wife see him? - -Mr. PAINE. I think no one saw him. Marina went in the next morning -hoping to see him. - -Mr. DULLES. There were no conversations that took place that evening -that are pertinent to our investigation so far as you know? - -Mr. PAINE. Quite soon I called the ACLU. There were reports, yes, I -think at that time, that Friday night, Marguerite was saying he wasn't -receiving counsel, and so I called the ACLU to see if there was anybody -there checking to see if this was true, and apparently a delegation, -this was Saturday morning, and apparently a delegation had been sent. - -Mr. DULLES. But to your knowledge neither you nor your wife had any -conversations with Marina or Robert that would throw any light on this -apparent coolness? - -Mr. PAINE. Ruth apparently saw Marina this last weekend. We have some -indications that people had gone between, chiefly Levine. - -Mr. DULLES. You think money considerations had anything to do with this? - -Mr. PAINE. I think quite a lot--it will be borne out, between Ruth and -Marina subsequently, I think they will find the difficulties. I think -Thorne---- - -Mr. DULLES. What I have in mind is as to whether some of these other -people thought that you and Ruth might intervene in as business manager -or something of that kind between them, and the monetary considerations -that were coming in to Marina. - -Mr. PAINE. We didn't know why. We have the feeling that Thorne was -advising her not to speak to Ruth. Ruth is not interested in the -money, but is interested in protecting her from the wolves, and so she -thought, we both thought, there were some false stories being told to -Marina in regard to Ruth. - -Mr. DULLES. That is all. - -The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Paine. - -Mr. PAINE. Thank you, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. We will examine Mrs. Paine this afternoon at 2 o'clock. - -(Whereupon, at 1:05 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -Afternoon Session - -TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE - - -The President's Commission reconvened at 2:20 p.m. - -Mr. McCLOY. Before I ask you to be sworn, Mrs. Paine. I will give you a -little general indication of what our testimony is apt to cover. - -We have heard that you and your husband made the acquaintance of the -Oswalds somewhere during 1963, and that Mrs. Marina Oswald lived in -your home from late September 1963, I believe, to the time of the -assassination. - -Since we are inquiring under our mandate into the background and the -possible motives of the assassination by Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged -assassin, we will question you regarding your association with Mr. -Oswald and try to glean from you any other facts that may bear upon the -assassination or its motivation. - -I believe you have been furnished with a copy of the executive order -under which we are operating as well as the Congressional resolution? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. Now if you will please stand, I will swear you. - -Mrs. PAINE. I would like to affirm. - -Mr. McCLOY. Do you solemnly affirm that the evidence you will give in -this investigation will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but -the truth? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do. - -Mr. McCLOY. Will you state your full name for the record and your -address? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am Ruth Hyde Paine. I live at 2515 West Fifth Street, in -Irving, Tex. - -Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Jenner is going to conduct the examination. - -Mr. JENNER. Your maiden name? - -Mrs. PAINE. Is Hyde. - -Mr. JENNER. Ruth Avery Hyde. - -Mrs. PAINE. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. You are wife of Michael Ralph Paine? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were born September 3, 1932? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You are almost 34 years old. - -Mrs. PAINE. Almost 32. I will be 32 in September. - -Mr. JENNER. Pretty bad arithmetic. Just a little bit of your -background, Mrs. Paine, very little. Your mother and father are living? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And your mother is an Unitarian Minister ordained in the -Unitarian Church at the moment? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she is. - -Mr. JENNER. And received her degree in theology last summer I believe, -is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. No, she has completed her work for a Bachelor of Divinity -Degree from Oberlin College and she will receive it in the spring. They -don't give them in mid-year. She completed just the first of February. - -Mr. JENNER. You yourself are a college graduate? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Antioch College? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yellow Springs. - -Mr. JENNER. Yellow Springs, Ohio? - -Mrs. PAINE. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. You have a brother and sister. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And your mother, your father, yourself, your brother, and -your sister are your entire family. - -Mrs. PAINE. My immediate family. - -Mr. JENNER. Your brother is a graduate of Antioch also, he and your -sister. Are they older than you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, they are. - -Mr. JENNER. Which is the elder of the two? - -Mrs. PAINE. My brother is the oldest. - -Mr. JENNER. And your brother is a professional man, is he? - -Mrs. PAINE. He is a doctor, general practitioner. - -Mr. JENNER. A general physician, and he practices in Yellow Springs, -Ohio? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us where Yellow Springs is? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is about 60 miles south and west from Columbus, Ohio, -the capital, which is more or less in the middle of the State, and -just a little bit east of Dayton. - -Mr. JENNER. Is your brother married. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, he is. - -Mr. JENNER. Does he have a family? - -Mrs. PAINE. He has four children. - -Mr. JENNER. And is your sister married? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she is. - -Mr. JENNER. Does she have a family? - -Mrs. PAINE. She has four children. - -Mr. JENNER. And each of your brothers and your sister, it is their -first marriage? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Now you were married to Mr. Paine December 28, 1957, is -that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe so. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were married where, in Philadelphia? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was suburban Philadelphia. Friends meeting in Media, Pa. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us what the Friends meeting is which you -have mentioned? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am a member of the Society of Friends often known as -Quakers. - -Mr. JENNER. You are a Quaker? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you embrace that faith? - -Mrs. PAINE. I joined in early 1951, I believe. - -Mr. JENNER. Has any other member of your family embraced the Quaker -faith? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; my brother is also a Quaker. - -Mr. JENNER. When did he embrace that faith. - -Mrs. PAINE. Similar in time, a year or two one way or the other. I -don't recall exactly. - -Mr. JENNER. I am afraid I might have been inattentive. When did you say -that occurred? - -Mrs. PAINE. Similar in time. I don't remember just when exactly he -joined. - -Mr. JENNER. I was thinking more as to when you said you did. - -Mrs. PAINE. In early '51, I think; I am quite certain it was winter of -'51. - -Mr. JENNER. You were then in college? - -Mrs. PAINE. That was the year out. I went to Antioch one year and then -I took a year out and I joined my home meeting in Columbus which I had -already attended perhaps 2 years. - -Mr. JENNER. And from the time you joined the Quaker church you have -been a member of that church? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Or that faith? - -Mrs. PAINE. Or church; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Ever since? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now you and Mr. Paine, did you take up a residence in -Philadelphia as soon as you married? - -Mrs. PAINE. I had been living in Philadelphia working there, and then -when we married I moved to suburban Philadelphia where Michael was -living, Paoli, Pa. - -Mr. JENNER. His folks live in Paoli, also, do they not? - -Mrs. PAINE. His mother and stepfather. - -Mr. JENNER. And you remained in Paoli until when? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, it was summer of '59 we were in the process of -moving, didn't complete it until fall of '59. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. You moved to where? - -Mrs. PAINE. To Irving, where we are now, to the present address. - -Mr. JENNER. To your present home? And that was in the summer of 1959? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. At some later stage we will go into what occurred. In the -meantime we have you now in Irving, Tex. Is that a suburb of Dallas? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You and your husband purchased the home you have there -before you went down. - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no; we stayed at a small apartment for several weeks -looking around and then rented for a year, and then we purchased the -house we have been renting. - -Mr. JENNER. So you purchased that and moved in in 1960, is that about -right? - -Mrs. PAINE. We first moved into it in the fall of '59. - -Mr. JENNER. You rented it and then purchased it. - -Mrs. PAINE. The same house; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, thank you. You have two children? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. A boy and a girl? - -Mrs. PAINE. A girl and a boy. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you name the oldest of the two. - -Mrs. PAINE. Sylvia Lynn and the boy--she is now 4. The boy is -Christopher and he is 3. - -Mr. JENNER. The point I was getting at, your daughter, Sylvia, was born -after you reached Texas? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And what was her birth? - -Mrs. PAINE. She was born on November 17, '59. - -Mr. JENNER. 1959. Now you are acquainted, became acquainted with Marina -Oswald, did you not, in due course in Irving, Tex.? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. I first met her and her husband at a gathering of -people in Dallas at the home of Everett Glover. - -Mr. JENNER. I will get to that in a moment. - -Mrs. PAINE. Okay. I had not met her before that. - -Mr. JENNER. At this time you and your husband were living in your -present home in Irving, Tex.? - -Mrs. PAINE. In '59. - -Mr. JENNER. At the time that you met Marina Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. Michael moved to an apartment in September of 1962. - -Mr. JENNER. There had been some strained relations or difficulties -between yourself and your husband Michael. When we shake our heads we -don't get it on the record. - -The answer to that is "Yes"? - -Mrs. PAINE. Is "No." I had not met her when there had been some -strained relations between me and my husband. It is just we are having -difficulties with words. - -Mr. JENNER. What I was getting at--there had been some strained -relations, is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And Mr. Paine had moved to separate quarters. This was in -September of 1962, correct. - -Mrs. PAINE. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. You met Marina for the first time when. - -Mrs. PAINE. I judge it was the last of February, towards the end of -February of 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. You were then living with your children in your home at -2515. - -Mrs. PAINE. West Fifth. - -Mr. JENNER. West Fifth Street in Irving, Tex. Now would you please -relate the circumstances under which the meeting between yourself and -Marina Oswald first occurred in February of 1963. - -Mrs. PAINE. I was invited to come to the home of Everett Glover to -meet a few friends of his, and I judge that was on the 22d of February -looking back at my calendar. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you please tell us who Mr. Everett Glover was and how -you became acquainted with him. - -What was the milieu? - -Mrs. PAINE. I met Mr. Glover at a group gathered to sing madrigals -together. These are old English songs where each part has a melody and -it was for the enjoyment of reading the music and in harmony, and we -often had coffee afterward and would talk. - -Mr. JENNER. This included your husband, however, did it not? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes indeed. - -Mr. JENNER. You had a common interest in this? - -Mrs. PAINE. Madrigal singing? - -Mr. JENNER. Madrigal singing? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And went together. - -Mr. JENNER. Proceed. - -Mrs. PAINE. And then Everett knew that I was interested in learning -Russian well enough to teach it, and since this gathering was to -include some people who spoke Russian, he invited me and he invited -Michael also to attend. Michael caught a bad cold and wasn't able to go. - -I went. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, could I interrupt you a moment here. Though your -husband was living in his own quarters, the relations between you, -however, were not so disruptive but what you were friendly, and you -were attending these singing groups? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. I saw him perhaps once or twice a week for -dinner at my house, and we went out to rather more movies than some of -my married friends. - -Mr. JENNER. There was reasonable cordiality? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. I don't wish to pry into your private life. - -Mrs. PAINE. If it is pertinent, go ahead. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, there is some necessity. We might touch a -little on your private life if you will forgive me for doing it. Mr. -Glover, is he a single person? - -Mrs. PAINE. He was at the time of the party. He has been divorced from -his wife. He is now remarried. - -Mr. JENNER. Now I interrupted you at the point at which you were -relating that Mr. Glover had raised with you, I assume this was a -telephone call, that he was going to have some guests. He knew of your -interest in the study and the learning of the Russian language and its -use? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do I correctly summarize it up to the moment? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You have an entry in your calendar as I recall on this -subject. There is a question mark. - -Mrs. PAINE. I recall it says "Everett?" - -Mr. JENNER. May I hand the witness the document? - -Mr. McCLOY. You may. - -Mr. JENNER. This will be Commission Exhibit No. 401. Gentlemen for the -purpose of identification of the exhibit, it is Mrs. Paine's calendar -which she used in part as a diary and part to record prospective -appointments and she surrendered it to the FBI. This is not merely a -photostat, it is a picture taken with a camera of that calendar. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 401 was marked for identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. May I ask you a question or two about it Mrs. Paine. Did -you not go through each of the pages of that calendar with me this -morning? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did. - -Mr. JENNER. And I asked you, did I not, whether it was all in your -handwriting? - -Mrs. PAINE. You did. - -Mr. JENNER. Except for the identification on the front, the officer who -received it from you--he made a notation of the date of receipt--it is -all in your handwriting? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And it is in the same condition now, isn't it, as it was -when you surrendered it? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you turn to the diary page to which I have reference -in connection with the first meeting with Marina Oswald, and that is -what month and what page and what date? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is on the page for February, and the only thing I can---- - -Mr. McCLOY. February what year? - -Mrs. PAINE. February 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. And the day please? - -Mrs. PAINE. There is a notation on the 22d of February. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, there is a square with the figure 22 in it -indicating February 22, 1963. Do you have something written in there? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What is written in there? - -Mrs. PAINE. It says "Everett's?" - -Mr. JENNER. Is that all there is in that square? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is all. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you explain that and how it related to what you are -now telling us? - -Mrs. PAINE. I believe it refers to the invitation to come to his home. -As I recall, he telephoned me twice, first to say that they might -get together a group of people, hence the question mark. Then he -called again to say they were going to have a party, and to make the -invitation definite. - -Mr. JENNER. Now you used the expression "I believe." Is that your best -recollection at the moment? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. And I went over this with you this morning and you gave me -the same explanation, did you not? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now did that event take place? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And what is your best recollection as to the day of the -month it took place? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have no other way of guessing when it was except to -assume that this notation means it was on the 22d of February. - -Mr. JENNER. And that does represent your present best recollection -refreshed to the extent it is refreshed by the memorandum before you? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right, and of course this first---- - -Mr. JENNER. What day of the week was that? - -Mrs. PAINE. That was a Friday. - -Mr. JENNER. Friday night. You attended the party did you not? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did. - -Mr. McCLOY. I believe you used the word Friday. I don't believe she -did, Friday night. You said Friday night. - -Mrs. PAINE. It was Friday evening. - -Mr. JENNER. Friday evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. The 22d was Friday. I don't recall. - -Mr. McCLOY. You used the word "evening"? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was an evening party. - -Mr. JENNER. It was held in Mr. Glover's home was it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it was. - -Mr. JENNER. Where is his home? - -Mrs. PAINE. At that time he was living in the Highland Park section of -Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. How far from your home is that? - -Mrs. PAINE. Half hour drive. - -Mr. JENNER. By what means did you get to Mr. Glover's home? - -Mrs. PAINE. I drove. - -Mr. JENNER. You owned or then had, or maybe you still have a station -wagon? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it the same car still? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is the same car. - -Mr. JENNER. And when you arrived, were either of the Oswalds present? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am not sure I recall accurately. I think they came a -little after I arrived. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you give us your best recollection of all the people, -couples if you can remember them that way, and then single persons or -persons there without their wives or husbands, as the case may be, that -evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I will try. The Oswalds, two were there, Marina and -Lee, Everett Glover, the host, Mr. and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt who were -the friendship link between the Oswalds and Glover. - -Mr. JENNER. Could I interrupt you there? Had you known the De -Mohrenschildts? - -Mrs. PAINE. I had never met them. I have not met them since. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the only occasion? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. That you ever saw either Mr. or Mrs. De Mohrenschildt? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. You had no conversations, no letters, no contact whatsoever -with them either before or after this party? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct, no contact whatsoever before or after. -There was a roommate of Everett's. Dirk, I think, I forget the name. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you attempting to recall his first name or his last -name? - -Mrs. PAINE. His first name. I may be wrong. It was a young German -fellow. - -Mr. JENNER. Schmidt? - -Mrs. PAINE. Do you know the first name? - -Mr. JENNER. No, I don't recall the first name. - -Mrs. PAINE. And he had two roommates, so that is two other single men, -and I don't recall their names. - -Mr. JENNER. Was each of them there? - -Mrs. PAINE. They were both there. - -Mr. JENNER. There were two roommates. - -Mrs. PAINE. Two roommates and they were both present at the party. I -should remember their names but I don't. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. PAINE. And there was a couple who lived in Irving; again I don't -recall the name. I don't believe I have seen any of these people since -with the exception of one of the roommates once, and again I don't -recall the name. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see the roommate the second---- - -Mrs. PAINE. I may have seen him since. All these people were new to me -when I came to the party with the exception of Everett. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see the roommate the second time before or after -November 22, 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, it was before. - -Mr. JENNER. But it is a fact that none of these people who were at the -party other than Mr. Glover had you seen or heard of? - -Mrs. PAINE. Before. - -Mr. JENNER. Up to the time that the party was held. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you exhausted your present recollection as to the -people who were present on that occasion. - -Mrs. PAINE. I can't get a name. The couple were living in Irving, I -recall that, but I don't--I have forgotten their name. - -Mr. JENNER. Now the Oswalds arrived shortly after the party began or at -least after you arrived? - -Mrs. PAINE. I believe they came with the De Mohrenschildts. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were introduced, were you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I was introduced. - -Mr. JENNER. By whom? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. It was a very informal gathering. Marina -was wearing slacks and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt also was. I doubt pains -were taken with the introductions. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. - -Mrs. PAINE. I doubt any pains were taken with the introductions. - -Mr. JENNER. How long did the party proceed? - -Mrs. PAINE. It must have started something after 8 o'clock and went -until towards midnight. - -Mr. JENNER. You have an interest in square dancing and that sort of -thing also. Did you do any of that then? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. We talked and ate. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you do any madrigal singing? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. No singing that evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Now before I get to any specificity with respect to Marina -and Lee Oswald, was Russian spoken that night by anybody? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you speak Russian? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Who else at the party had some facility with Russian in -addition to Lee Oswald and Marina Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. Just the De Mohrenschildts, both of them, and myself. - -Mr. JENNER. And yourself. Did you mention that Mr. Glover had some -interest in the Russian language? - -Mrs. PAINE. No, I don't believe he does. - -Mr. JENNER. He did not, all right. Were the Oswalds really the center -of attention that evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think so, yes, although you can't say that there was a -single center for the entire evening. It wasn't like being invited to -hear what he had to say. It was much more informal than that. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you speak with Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you converse with her during the course of the evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. Very briefly. She spent the first part of the evening -trying to get June to go to sleep. - -Mr. JENNER. June is her daughter? - -Mrs. PAINE. The little girl with her. - -Mr. JENNER. She brought her daughter with her did she? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, and then we talked some in the kitchen with Mrs. De -Mohrenschildt, Marina and I. - -Mr. JENNER. And what subject did you ladies pursue? - -Mrs. PAINE. I really can't remember. The actual conversation with -Marina didn't cover much time at all. I saw very little of her that -evening. - -Mr. JENNER. That evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Can you remember any subject you talked to her about in the -kitchen? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. What subjects were discussed, I assume in the living room -or--where everybody was gathered? Do you recall what was being pursued -there in the way of conversation. - -Mrs. PAINE. Part of the time Lee talked with people who were asking -him about his trip to Russia. I believe Everett had told me that he -had been, so I knew that when I arrived. And the fact that he had gone -intending to become a citizen in the Soviet Union. He talked freely and -with considerable interest in his subject to the three or four people -around him. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you gathered in that group? - -Mrs. PAINE. Part of the time at least I was listening to that. He spoke -of the things about the Soviet Union that had displeased him, as for -instance the censorship. He knew that it had been going on regarding -his letters. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, when you talk in terms of conclusion, we have -a little trouble testifying. If you will give us examples such as -you just gave us about censorship, could we go back a moment to the -conversation about his going to Russia. During the course of that -subject, in questions put to him, was anything he listed as to why he -went to Russia? May I have a yes or no first? - -Do you recall anything like that? - -Mrs. PAINE. I can't be certain that this is when I first got an idea -about why he wanted to go or whether I learned this later. - -Mr. JENNER. Does your memory serve you enough so that there is a fair -possibility that--it is important to us--was the subject discussed at -that gathering? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think so. - -Mr. JENNER. And that is your best recollection? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now would you give us your best recollection of what he -said or what Marina said, but primarily what Mr. Oswald said on that -subject. Why did he go to Russia? - -Mrs. PAINE. I carry the impression, and I think it is recalled from -this evening---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. When you say you carry the impression you are -saying "It is my present recollection." - -Mrs. PAINE. All right. That he spoke of himself as a Marxist that -evening, that he had read certain Marxist books and thought that the -Soviet economic system was superior to ours, and wanted to go to the -Soviet Union and live there. - -Mr. JENNER. What response was elicited from others at the meeting, -agreement? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I would not say there was any agreement. People were -interested. This is an unusual thing to do. And they were interested in -hearing how he found Soviet life, what he thought of it, whether he was -pleased or disappointed. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough to tell the members of the -Commission what Mr. Oswald said in those respects, to the best of your -recollection? - -Mrs. PAINE. He mentioned that he was displeased with the censorship, or -at least he commented on it in a way that I took as unfavorable. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Ma'am. - -Did he say he was---- - -Mrs. PAINE. What had happened, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What censorship is he talking about? - -Mrs. PAINE. He referred to a letter that had been sent to him by Robert -Oswald that he later learned, after he had come back to the United -States, had been sent. He had not received it. He judged that they had -simply stopped it, and he commented that they are more apt to just take -a letter than take out a piece of it and then send it on, and that -censorship is more obvious. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, go on. - -Mrs. PAINE. I wondered, listening to him, whether he really was---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, please. Before we get to what you wondered -about, exhaust your recollection as to what he said, what others might -have said on the subjects in his presence about which he talked. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is all I can think of. - -Mr. JENNER. You mentioned, also, Mrs. Paine, that there was discussed -that evening the subject of his return to America. - -Mrs. PAINE. Obviously, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Why he returned, was that subject discussed? - -Mrs. PAINE. Not very much, no. I can't recall any specifics relating to -that. - -Mr. JENNER. All you can recall, I take it, at the moment, is that there -was an allusion to the subject? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, he was clearly here, yes. He had come back, -and--well, I have to put it in terms of what I guess or what I feel was -his reaction. I can't give you a specific recall. - -Mr. JENNER. We have no objection to your doing that. We would like -to have you first state all you can recall as to what specifically -happened in this instance. How did Mr. Oswald treat or regard--what -relationship did you gather existed between Marina and her husband, -a cordial one as of that occasion, separating from what you learned -afterward, but just this initial instance. What impression did you have? - -Mrs. PAINE. Almost none. There was very little contact between them -during the evening. He spoke English to those that were asking them -questions. She was either in the bedroom by herself trying to get the -little baby to go to sleep, or in the kitchen speaking Russian to the -De Mohrenschildts. I listened more than I spoke in that situation. - -Mr. JENNER. When Mr. Oswald was in the living room with you ladies and -gentlemen, the conversation was in English, was it not? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, that when Marina returned to the room -Russian was spoken, at least by those who had command of the Russian -language. - -Mrs. PAINE. When she was in the same room, there was more than one -conversation going on, and in two languages. - -Mr. JENNER. When anybody spoke to Marina---- - -Mrs. PAINE. It was in Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. It was in Russian. When people spoke with each other other -than with Marina, it was in English, is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, in very short compass what was your impression of Mr. -Oswald at that initial party? - -Mrs. PAINE. I thought he was pleased to be interesting to this group -of people and glad to tell them about his experience, to answer their -questions. He seemed open and forthright. I did wonder as he was -talking about it whether he had come to the conclusion after being in -the Soviet Union that their system was inferior. - -Mr. JENNER. Inferior to ours? - -Mrs. PAINE. To ours, or whether he still thought that the Soviet system -was a better one. His discussion of the censorship made me feel that -he wanted his listeners to know that he was not blind to the defects -of the Soviet system, but it did not convince me that he was in favor -of the American system. I was left wondering which country he thought -conducted itself better. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have an interest in the Oswalds at this moment -wholly apart from your interest in the Russian language? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you intellectually curious about them is all I meant. - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes. Well, it is most unusual to take such a step as he -took. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you had some notice in advance of this meeting, Mrs. -Paine, of the fact that Mr. Oswald was at least--there had been -publications of his having been a defector? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I wasn't aware of that. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you first learn of that? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, a name is always given to someone who goes to the -Soviet Union and wants to have citizenship there, isn't it, so I could -well have assumed that there had been such, but I really didn't learn -about it until after the assassination, I guess. No; I take it back. - -There was a reference now. - -Mr. JENNER. That evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. Specific recall. It is coming. The content of Robert's -letter to him, as I recall, included a clipping from the Fort Worth -newspapers relative to his defection. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine, you are talking about a letter of -Robert Oswald's? - -Mrs. PAINE. A letter from Robert to Lee which Lee never got but heard -about when he came back to the States. - -Mr. JENNER. And that was the subject of discussion that evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. That came up, so, therefore, I did know that he had been -called a defector. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Robert refer to this letter or did someone in the -meeting refer to the letter? - -Mrs. PAINE. Lee referred to the letter in discussion of censorship. - -Mr. JENNER. But up until that moment, you had not had any prior -impression with respect to whether he had been a defector or an -attempted defector? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I think, yes; I had some impression of that sort, -but it came directly from Lee. He said he went to the Soviet Union -and tried to give up his American citizenship, and as I recall, he -said that the American embassy did not relinquish his passport, and, -therefore, he was not eligible to get Soviet citizenship. - -Mr. JENNER. You are remembering more now. - -Mrs. PAINE. I am. - -Mr. JENNER. I am pleased that you are, Mrs. Paine. He did discuss his -attempts to obtain---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. To surrender his passport and to accomplish his Soviet -citizenship? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And that was openly discussed in this gathering? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. This is Senator Cooper, a member of the Commission, Mrs. -Paine. - -Mrs. PAINE. How do you do? - -Mr. JENNER. This party, I gather, lasted approximately from 7 to 12, -did you say? - -Mrs. PAINE. Eight to eleven-thirty or twelve. - -Mr. JENNER. And the party broke up, and you went home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your overall impression of Marina Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. I had very little impression altogether. I did ask for her -address. - -Mr. JENNER. Why did you do that? - -Mrs. PAINE. And I asked if I could write her. I wanted to go visit her -at her home. - -Mr. JENNER. Why? - -Mrs. PAINE. To talk Russian. She is very hard to find, a person -speaking modern Russian, and in fact I know of no other, and this was -an opportunity for me to again practice in the language, a rather -unusual opportunity, and I was interested in meeting her and getting to -know her. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I will go back and develop this lady's -interest in the Russian language during the course of the examination, -and her prior study of the language up to this point. She did have an -abiding interest in the language at this particular point, but I wanted -to get at the initial meeting first before anything further. - -Mr. McCLOY. Very well. - -Mr. JENNER. You say modern Russian, that Marina Oswald had a command of -modern Russian. Would you please explain to us what you mean by that? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I am not in a position to judge a person, whether a -person is speaking modern Russian or not. My language is not that good, -but she talked with--this was later, I only assumed that she had--I -hoped that she spoke good Russian. I didn't know at that time whether -she spoke educated Russian or not. Shall I jump ahead? - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I wish you wouldn't. You meant, then, by your -expression that you hoped to find that she did speak educated Russian? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; right. - -Mr. JENNER. And if she did, that then you might profit or learn from -her educated Russian to a greater degree than you knew it as of that -time? That was your main interest at the moment? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Aside from interests in another lady or human being under -those circumstances? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, until I then got to know her it was my only interest. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. That is the point I was seeking to make. Did you -become better acquainted with the Oswalds thereafter? - -Mrs. PAINE. I met---- - -Mr. JENNER. Did you, first, yes or no? - -Mrs. PAINE. I became better acquainted with Marina. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, if members of the Commission--I am going to -pass from this initial event--if you have any questions you would like -to put to the witness now rather than my deferring it. - -Mr. McCLOY. Are there any questions? - -The CHAIRMAN. Not for me. - -Representative FORD. Not at this point. - -Senator COOPER. No. - -Mr. McCLOY. May I ask one? Did Oswald, Lee Oswald on this occasion -express any dislike for any elements or aspects of American society? - -Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall anything specific that was said. - -Mr. McCLOY. He did not indicate to this group why it was that he left -the United States to go to Russia originally? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is hard to say how I formed this opinion, but I gathered -that he disapproved of the economic system. - -Mr. McCLOY. Was there anything more specific than that that he referred -to? Did he refer, for example, to any dislike of individuals? - -Mrs. PAINE. Individuals? No; I am certain there was none. - -Mr. McCLOY. In government or out of government? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. McCLOY. Your impression was that he was motivated to go to the -Soviet Union because he didn't like the capitalist system? - -Mrs. PAINE. Right. - -Mr. McCLOY. And had an affinity for what might be called the Marxist -system, is that right? - -Mrs. PAINE. Right. - -Mr. McCLOY. That is all the questions that I have. - -Mr. JENNER. Along those lines, Mrs. Paine, did he make any remarks -with respect to workers in Russia as compared with the position, the -economic position of workers in America? Did he refer to workers as a -subject? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't remember. - -Mr. JENNER. I am trying to refresh your recollection. You said -economics, he thought that the economic situation was superior in -Russia. I wonder whether he related it to the ordinary worker rather -than the overall system. - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't remember. - -Representative FORD. How well did Marina speak English at the time you -made the first acquaintance or first contact? - -Mrs. PAINE. I was under the impression she spoke no English at all. - -Representative FORD. Did she appear to understand any English at that -time? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe she understood much of anything. - -Mr. JENNER. That was your definite impression? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you hear her speak any English words that evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. McCLOY. Senator Cooper? - -Senator COOPER. I believe you said a few minutes ago that you were -interested in knowing why Lee Oswald left the United States and went to -Russia. Did you say that? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I don't recall saying it. I suppose I was curious. - -Mr. McCLOY. I don't recall that she actually said that. She said it was -an interesting situation. - -Mrs. PAINE. It was unusual, I think I probably said. - -Mr. McCLOY. She used the word unusual. - -Mrs. PAINE. An unusual thing to do, certainly. - -Senator COOPER. I don't want to say that you said something you didn't, -but I got the impression that one of the reasons you were interested -in meeting this family was in fact that this man had left the United -States and gone to Russia. - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Senator COOPER. In some sense? - -Mrs. PAINE. Not in any sense whatever. - -Mr. McCLOY. As I recall it she did say that this was an unusual -situation, and that to some extent developed your interest. This is Mr. -Dulles, a member of the Commission. - -Senator COOPER. Maybe I could put it this way. Perhaps we could read -back and find out, but I thought that you intimated or indicated that -you were interested in the fact that this man had gone to Russia. - -Mrs. PAINE. Perhaps I can answer your question---- - -Senator COOPER. And it provoked your interest. - -Mrs. PAINE. I can answer it this way. I was interested at the party to -hear something of what he had to say. I was hopeful when I wrote and -inquired if I could see Marina where they lived; and knowing that he -would be at work, that I would try to go during the week when I would -have a chance simply to talk with her. - -Senator COOPER. That night he did say that he did not like the -capitalist system? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection. - -Senator COOPER. Were you interested, then, in finding out what it was -about it he didn't like? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Senator COOPER. In reference to his experience in Russia or for any -other reason? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Senator COOPER. You didn't inquire further to have him elaborate on his -reasons for not liking the capitalist system? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. Of course, it is a rather short space of time we are -talking about, perhaps 45 minutes or so or less. People were inquiring -of him. - -Mr. JENNER. But others did inquire on these subjects? - -Mrs. PAINE. For the most part the other people asked questions, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. On the subject that Senator Cooper has inquired about, is -that true? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Now perhaps to help your recollection a little bit on that, -was this roommate of whom you speak named Volkmar Schmidt? - -Mrs. PAINE. Volkmar sounds familiar. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall a couple by the name of Richard Pierce, or -a gentleman at least by the name of Richard Pierce who attended that -meeting? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that would be the other roommate, not a couple, he was -single, Richard Pierce. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there not present a Miss Betty MacDonald? - -Mrs. PAINE. Which I had completely forgotten about, yes; there was. - -Mr. JENNER. And you still are unable to recall the name of the other -couple? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am unable to. Betty MacDonald I do recall lives in the -same apartment building as this couple, and it is a long German sort of -name, I think. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you become acquainted with Mr. Glover through your -husband? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, you might say so. We both became interested in going -to madrigal sings at the same time. My interest in madrigals was -developed by Michael, but that was before we ever moved to Texas. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you teaching Russian at this time? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You were not? Had you done any teaching of Russian prior to -this occasion? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You subsequently did some teaching; have you done some -teaching of Russian? - -Mrs. PAINE. Just this past summer. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. I will get to that in due course. Did you do some -translating that evening for Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You did not? - -Mrs. PAINE. I spoke to her very little. I was embarrassed to. - -Mr. JENNER. Why was that? - -Mrs. PAINE. Because my Russian was so poor, and the De Mohrenschildts -could both do it all so much better. - -Mr. JENNER. Was Mr. Oswald's command of Russian very good, also? - -Mrs. PAINE. I didn't hear him speak Russian that night at all. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, is that so? - -Mrs. PAINE. He may have, but I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. He did no translating? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. For her, no. - -Mr. JENNER. For Marina. And on no occasion--he sat there and on none of -the occasions did he translate, but, rather, Mr. De Mohrenschildt did -the translating? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't even believe that was translating. They would -address themselves to her in a separate conversation from what was -going on from these three or four around him. - -Mr. JENNER. So that those who did not understand Russian got nothing -from it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Those who did not understand English got nothing from what -he was saying--is that what you mean, or do you mean the other way? - -Mr. JENNER. If no one interpreted her in English, translated for her. - -Mrs. PAINE. No one understood it; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Then whose who didn't understand Russian---- - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Did not understand what she was saying? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And that went on through the entire evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. You must understand she was not present for, I would say, -more than half of the evening. She was just with her child. - -Mr. JENNER. But while she was present. - -Mrs. PAINE. There was no translation done for her benefit. - -Mr. JENNER. Or for the benefit of anybody else who did not understand -Russian? - -Mrs. PAINE. The other way; no. It is a long time ago. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes. Was anything the subject that evening of Mrs. -Oswald's family background? Was that discussed? - -Mrs. PAINE. Of Marina's? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing. - -Mr. JENNER. It was not discussed at anytime during that evening, the -fact that she was in Russia, she had been educated as, and was, a -pharmacist? - -Mrs. PAINE. That might have been said. I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your reaction to the De Mohrenschildts that -evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. I had heard from Everett that they were interesting people, -that they had gone on a hiking tour through Mexico taking pictures -as they went. I learned or had known from Everett, also, in this one -telephone conversation, that he was a geologist, a free lancer. - -Mrs. De Mohrenschildt seemed somewhat protective toward Marina in the -sense of wanting her to understand what was--wanting to talk with her, -to include her. Mr. De Mohrenschildt talked about his past life some in -English. - -Mr. JENNER. His speaking of his past life was in English? - -Mrs. PAINE. Was in English. I recalled to him his first wife who was -also a Quaker. I remember he said that. - -Mr. JENNER. When was your next contact with either Marina Oswald or Lee -Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. I wrote a letter, a note to Marina at the address I had -been given, and got a note back saying, "We have moved. This is the new -address. Come in perhaps a week." From that time. She wanted to get the -house cleaned up before I came. - -Mr. JENNER. They lived in Dallas, did they not? - -Mrs. PAINE. That was in Dallas; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. On this February 22 occasion they were then living on Neely -Street in Dallas? - -Mrs. PAINE. I believe they moved just in that period that I had the -previous address, and as soon as I wrote, the first letter I got back -gave the Neely Street address. - -Mr. JENNER. You have recorded that, have you not, in your address book? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Which I will follow up in a moment. Do you have a copy of -the letter that you wrote to Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. That initial letter asking if I could come over? I -don't believe I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Not having---- - -Mrs. PAINE. I have her reply. - -Mr. JENNER. You do have a reply? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have her reply. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have it with you? - -Mrs. PAINE. She drew a map. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. May I have it, please? - -Mrs. PAINE. Do you want it right now? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. All right. Wait--no; perhaps I have it at the hotel. I -don't think it is here. I didn't think I would be before the Commission -today at all. - -Mr. JENNER. We will pass that. You can get it tonight. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I am certain I have it. - -Mr. DULLES. That was written in Russian, I assume. - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; in my letter to her, bad Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. As long as you have the letter I don't want you to attempt -to summarize it then, but you did write her a note in which you sought -to come see her. She responded advising you of a change of address. -There would be some delay, I gather, because she wished to get her home -in order, having just moved. And this exchange of letters took place -approximately when? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was early March some time. - -Mr. JENNER. 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think her letter is postmarked the 8th of March. - -Mr. JENNER. 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. After that exchange of letters, did you see Marina Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you go to her home or did she come to yours? - -Mrs. PAINE. I drove to her home. There would be no way for her to come. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you had another exchange of letters before you went to -her home? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe so. - -Mr. JENNER. You just waited a few days, guessed how long it would take -her to have her home in order, and you visited her, am I correct in my -summary? - -Mrs. PAINE. She suggested Tuesday, as I recall in her letter, but what -Tuesday I don't know. If it was written the 8th that would be Tuesday -the 12th. There is no notation on my calendar. - -Mr. JENNER. But you do have her response to your letter? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is what I have. - -Mr. JENNER. In the hotel. We will get that this evening. Was Mr. Oswald -home when you visited her? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. On the next occasion? - -Mrs. PAINE. He was not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you make a description in your calendar with respect to -this visit? - -Mrs. PAINE. I judge not. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you find any in your calendar? - -Mrs. PAINE. With respect to this visit? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe so. - -Mr. JENNER. By the way, that calendar is all in your handwriting, isn't -it? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Exhibit No. 401 the -document that has been given that exhibit number. - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. - -(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission -Exhibit No. 401, was received in evidence.) - -Representative FORD. What time of day was this visit, Mrs. Paine? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was midmorning, up to lunchtime. She had hoped I could -stay through lunch but I wanted to get back so my children could have -naps. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there anybody at home to care for your children when -you made this visit? - -Mrs. PAINE. I took them. - -Mr. JENNER. Oh, you took them. - -Mrs. PAINE. Therefore, I wanted to get them home to take naps. - -Mr. JENNER. What is the driving time from your home in Irving---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Thirty-five to forty minutes. - -Mr. JENNER. To the Neely Street address of the Oswalds? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it--or was Mr. Oswald home? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Just Marina? And that visit--tell us about that visit, -please. - -Mrs. PAINE. I fear my recollection may meld one or two visits that -occurred in March. - -Mr. JENNER. It might be a good idea, then,--go ahead and tell us about -them in a melded form. - -Mrs. PAINE. All right. I recall we walked out to a nearby park. - -Mr. DULLES. In both cases? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am not sure. - -Mr. DULLES. You think so? - -Mrs. PAINE. Anyway, I recall walking to the park, and I think this was -the first visit, and we sat and talked. It was warm weather, March, in -Dallas. And the children played on the park equipment, and we talked, -and she told me that she was expecting a baby, and asked me not to talk -about it among the Russian community. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Had anything been said on that subject when you -first met Marina Oswald the night of February 22? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Nothing? This was your first notice of that? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And she told you not--would you repeat that, please? - -Mrs. PAINE. She told me that she was expecting a child. - -Mr. JENNER. She told you not to do what? - -Mrs. PAINE. Not to tell members of the Russian-speaking community in -Dallas. She preferred for it not to be publicly known, so to speak. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you in contact with the Russian-speaking community in -Dallas? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you say that to her on that occasion? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, it is a contact I could have had. It was reasonable -for her to assume I might be. - -Mr. JENNER. But you said nothing in response to that. Did you reassure -her? - -Mrs. PAINE. I just said I wouldn't talk about it, that it was up to her -to make such an announcement when she felt like it. - -Mr. McCLOY. May I ask a question at this point? - -You said Lee Oswald was not there. A little earlier in your testimony -you said you hoped he would not be there. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. McCLOY. Why did you say that? Was it because you took any dislike -to his being there or was it merely because you wanted exclusive -contact with Marina, or both? - -Mrs. PAINE. I certainly wanted to make the contact with Marina. She -had not appeared as a person at all at the party. I couldn't tell what -sort of person she was, and I felt meeting alone with her would make -an opportunity both to speak the language and to find out what sort of -person she was. - -Mr. McCLOY. Go on. Did you have any further motivation for that wish? -Did you take any dislike to him? - -Mrs. PAINE. Not an active dislike, but I didn't like him. I think we -can say that. - -Mr. JENNER. And you gathered that impression the evening of February 22? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is very hard to know whether I gathered it then or in -terms of things she told me then after we met, and I will outline them. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; we will get into those. - -Mrs. PAINE. I would say it was more formed later. - -Mr. JENNER. And in your responding to Mr. McCloy's question you were -attempting to transport yourself back to that particular occasion and -not be affected by the course of events that had taken place in the -meantime, am I correct about that? - -Mrs. PAINE. I tried to. - -Mr. JENNER. To the best of your ability. Tell us a little more, then, -to the extent you have a recollection what occurred and what was said -in the park on that occasion. - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I recall that we talked, and, as I said, it may be -the first visit or it may have been the first and the second melded -in my mind. She said that she was expecting a baby. She said that Lee -didn't want her to learn English. He was not encouraging her to learn -English or helping her with it, that he spoke only Russian to her and -to their baby June. And she told me--now, let me say that my calendar -does show a notation on the 20th of March, it says, "Marina" and I -judge I went again to see her at her home on that day, or brought her -to my house, I am not certain which. But I judge, also, that this was -the second visit. - -Mr. JENNER. I suggest that you might have melded these a moment ago. -Now I wish you would keep these apart for the moment. - -Mrs. PAINE. So far as I can. - -Mr. JENNER. And stick with the occasion in the park first and exhaust -your recollection. - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I was impressed, talking with her in the park, with -what I felt to be her need to have a friend. This was virtually our -first meeting, but she confided to me something that she didn't want -generally known among the Russian segment. - -Mr. JENNER. That was her pregnancy? - -Mrs. PAINE. Of Dallas. She inquired of me, a young woman, about birth -control methods, and she said that she felt--well, clearly this -pregnancy had surprised her, but she said that she didn't believe in -abortion, and didn't want to consider such a course. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you exhausted your recollection? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is all I recall; yes. - -I do not recall whether it was this time or the next time, it may well -have been the next time, that she told me that---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, please. - -Mrs. PAINE. All right, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I would like to stick with this. When Mrs. Oswald, this is -your first visit, she related to you and said that her husband did not -wish her to acquire any command of the English language, what did you -say? Did you express yourself in some fashion as to why? Didn't that -seem curious to you? - -Mrs. PAINE. I likely said that---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. It is best you don't guess. - -Give us your best recollection. - -Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that she did most of the talking -because she could. My Russian was bad enough that if she talked I was -happy. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you feel any embarrassment because you were---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, a terrible embarrassment. - -Mr. JENNER. You did? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is a terrible impediment to talking and to friendship. - -Mr. JENNER. I wish you would elaborate on that because I am sure the -members of the Commission would like to have your mental reaction to -what you thought was your limited command of the Russian language and -whether it interfered with communication between you. - -Mrs. PAINE. It interfered very markedly. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate? - -Mrs. PAINE. I could think of many more things to say than I could think -of the words to use in order to say it in Russian. I want to keep -jumping ahead to illustrate this. But just it was very difficult for me -to communicate. - -I understand much more readily than I speak, so that I could understand -what she was saying to me easily, especially as she took care to see -that she used small words and made herself understood. - -But it was very difficult for me just to speak. I could not possibly -have reacted to her as I would to someone else in English, as I would -if she had been speaking English. - -Mr. DULLES. At this time you felt that she could not gain very much if -you talked to her in English? - -Mrs. PAINE. I was certain of that, yes. - -Mr. DULLES. But later she had improved, apparently? - -Mrs. PAINE. After the assassination, to my knowledge. - -Mr. DULLES. That was after the assassination? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I never knew her to speak English at all. - -Mr. DULLES. Or to understand? - -I wasn't speaking of just speaking, but about the comprehension of it. - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, she said to me in November that she has changed from -never listening to an English conversation to giving it some of her -attention because she is able to pick up some words. You know how if -you don't understand anything there is no point even---- - -Mr. DULLES. I personally got the impression when she was here that she -understood a good deal of English. - -Mrs. PAINE. I believe she does, yes. - -Mr. DULLES. But this time she did not have that facility at all? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you not think it was curious that her husband was -adverse to her acquiring some facility with the English language? - -Mrs. PAINE. I thought it was distinctly thoughtless on his part, even -cruel. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss it with her to the extent that you could in -your limited command of Russian? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think the easiest thing was to agree with what she was -saying about it, agree with what she was saying. - -Mr. JENNER. Which was what? - -Mrs. PAINE. Which is that this wasn't the way it should be and I -certainly agreed. - -Mr. JENNER. She complained, did she? - -Mrs. PAINE. She complained, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. Did she express an interest, then, in acquiring some -facility? - -Mrs. PAINE. Not against his wishes, no. She didn't express an interest. -In learning English through me, for instance. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. She showed no interest unlike the interest you had in -her helping you with Russian, she showed no interest at that moment in -learning from you some command of the English language? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Now you think the second occasion occurring in your -calendar entry there was possibly March 20? - -Mr. JENNER. And what is the entry? - -Mrs. PAINE. It says, "Marina". - -Mr. JENNER. And that is the only word? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is all it says. - -Mr. JENNER. In that square? - -Mrs. PAINE. Probably I went again to her home. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Does that refresh your recollection as to -anything on that occasion? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. It does not? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am guessing, again, that this was the second meeting. I -think I went to her home twice before I carried her from her place to -my home, which was considerably more of an event, since it was 35 or 40 -minutes each way, going twice in one day. - -Mr. JENNER. You say carry? - -Mrs. PAINE. Carry, that is a good Texas term for driving a person in a -car. - -Senator COOPER. I must say there, that is an old term even in Kentucky. -You take some person some place you carry them. - -Mrs. PAINE. You carry them; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. It is an odd expression to me. - -Mrs. PAINE. I have been in Texas longer than I think. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it then there were two occasions when you visited -her. - -Mrs. PAINE. I believe there were two down there, and then I asked her, -went to pick her up and brought her to my home and we spent a portion -of the day at my home, and I then took her back. - -Mr. JENNER. This was at your invitation? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; surely. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you by this time--let us take the March 20 affair, -occasion--had you some feeling of affinity or liking for Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. As a person? - -Mrs. PAINE. I did feel that she was in a difficult position from the -first I met her. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, chronologically, would you in your own words, so that -I don't suggest anything to you, what was the next occasion? - -The next time it was under circumstances in which you went to her home -in your station wagon, picked her up and brought her to your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was probably then that she mentioned to me that Lee -wanted her to go back to the Soviet Union, was asking her to go back. - -Mr. JENNER. He mentioned this subject as early as that, did he not? - -Mrs. PAINE. This was still in March. - -Mr. JENNER. She did? - -Mrs. PAINE. She did, yes; and said that she didn't want to go. - -Mr. JENNER. The Commission is interested in that. Would you please -relate it? - -Mrs. PAINE. She said she did not want to go back, that he asked her to -go back, told her, perhaps, to go back. - -Mr. JENNER. State just as accurately---- - -Mrs. PAINE. As she described it I felt---- - -Mr. JENNER. Just what she said now, please. - -Mrs. PAINE. He told her he wanted to send her back with June. - -Mr. JENNER. Alone? - -Mrs. PAINE. To the Soviet Union. As she described it, I judged that -meant---- - -Mr. JENNER. Please---- - -Mrs. PAINE. A divorce---- - -Mr. JENNER. Instead of saying as she described it tell us what she -said, if you can. - -Mrs. PAINE. She said that she had written to the Soviet Embassy to ask -about papers to go back, and received a reply from them saying, "Why do -you want to go back?" And she said she just didn't answer that letter -because she didn't want to go back, and that that was where the matter -stood at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. She had not answered the letter? - -Mrs. PAINE. The inquiry from the Embassy. She did not answer it. - -Mr. DULLES. Did she say whether or not she showed that answer from the -Soviet Embassy to her husband? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; she didn't say. - -Mr. JENNER. Did I understand you to say that Marina said to you that -she thought that meant a divorce? - -Mrs. PAINE. I will state again that she felt she was being sent back to -stay back, that he would stay here, that this amounted to the end of -the marriage for them, but not legally done. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. And did she express any opinion of opposition to -that? - -Mrs. PAINE. She particularly was opposed to going back. It was leaving -the United States that she was opposed to. - -Mr. JENNER. She wanted to stay here, did she? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; very much so. - -Mr. JENNER. I ask you this general question, then, Mrs. Paine: During -all of your contact with Marina Oswald, did she ever express any view -other than that one of wanting to remain in America? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; she did not. - -Mr. JENNER. What did she? Was she affirmative about it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Very. - -Mr. JENNER. Of wanting to stay in this country? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, what did you say when she related that her husband -wanted her to return to Russia, and she thought to remain in Russia. -Did it elicit some curiosity from you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Curiosity? It elicited anger at Lee that he would presume -to drop his responsibilities so preemptorily. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss it with her? - -Mrs. PAINE. I wrote a letter to her in an effort to gather my words. -I couldn't just discuss it with her. My language was not that good. -What I wanted to do was offer her an alternative to being sent back, -an economic alternative, and I thought for some time and thought over -a week about inviting her to live with me. I was alone with my two -children at the time, as an alternative to being sent back. If he -thought he couldn't support her or didn't care to or whatever reason he -had, I simply wanted to say there was an alternative to her going back, -that she could stay and live with me if she wanted to. I wrote such a -letter, really, to gather---- - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do. This letter was never sent. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that also at the hotel? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't know. It may be here. I can look if you want. This -letter was never sent and never mentioned to her. I wrote it so that -I would have the words before me to use if it seemed appropriate to -me to make the invitation, you see, a way of gathering enough of the -language, enough Russian, and to say what I wanted to say. And this -letter is dated the 7th of April. - -Mr. JENNER. The 7th of April? - -Mrs. PAINE. And I know I spent at least a week thinking about it. I -talked it over with Michael before I wrote it, and it is plainly marked -"never sent" on the letter. I carried it with me, as I recall I carried -it once to the apartment so that if---- - -Mr. JENNER. To what apartment? - -Mrs. PAINE. To their apartment on Neely Street, so that if it seemed -appropriate I could hand it to her, you see. I could make this -invitation at home with time and a dictionary in hand, and then let her -read it. It was ever so much easier than just trying to say it. - -Mr. McCLOY. Though you never delivered it, did you ever speak from it -to her? - -Mrs. PAINE. When she was staying with me the last few days of April and -the first week of May, I made, yes, a verbal invitation of that sort, -and in the April 7 letter, I have just gone over this correspondence or -I wouldn't recall what it said, but---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine. I think we can take the time to see -if you have the letter in your bag. - -Mrs. PAINE. I am sorry that I feel precipitated into a discussion -of this correspondence, and I would rather--no, it is not here--go -at it--there are several things I want to say about it. I began to -mention it to Mr. Jenner this morning and thought we would have a whole -afternoon to talk more. - -Mr. JENNER. We will have time tonight, Mrs. Paine. - -Mrs. PAINE. You will have time tonight? - -Mr. JENNER. I thought Mr. Redlich might look at the letter. I didn't -want to delay the Commission. You do have it at hand? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is not here. It is at the hotel. - -Mr. JENNER. I would like to return to something else for the moment, -then, first. - -What reasons did Marina give, if she gave any, as to why her husband -wished her to return to Russia? What did she say on that subject? - -Mrs. PAINE. She didn't say. - -Mr. JENNER. Nothing at all? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. No explanation? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. On that occasion? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. I meant by that last question to imply that there might -have been another occasion subsequently in which the subject was -discussed again in which she did state what Mr. Oswald's reasons were, -if any? - -Mrs. PAINE. She never stated any reasons. - -Mr. JENNER. Never? - -Mrs. PAINE. She implied that it was because he didn't want her. - -Mr. JENNER. He didn't what? - -Mrs. PAINE. Want her. - -Mr. JENNER. What is the date of this letter, April 7? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. We will take a brief recess. - -(Brief recess.) - -Mr. JENNER. Now, would you turn to your calendar, please. What is the -next day, date, in your calendar, in which you have an entry? - -Mrs. PAINE. Regarding the Oswalds? - -Mr. JENNER. Regarding the Oswalds. - -Mrs. PAINE. It is April 2, Tuesday. - -Mr. JENNER. What is the entry? - -Mrs. PAINE. "Marina and Lee dinner." - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I take it that by this time, that is, up to -April 2 you had had several visits with Marina and you had reached the -point at which you invited them to your home for dinner? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Now, Michael had never met either. By this time I had -talked to him. I had indeed invited them to stay indefinitely. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. And so I wanted him to meet them and invited them both to -come to dinner. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine, if I seem presumptuous. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. But you have stated several times, and now you state you -inquired of your husband as to whether you could invite Marina to stay -with you. Didn't you think that was a little presumptuous on your part -to invite a man's wife to come to live with you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, toward Lee it was presumptuous. - -Mr. JENNER. Beg pardon? - -Mrs. PAINE. Presumptuous in relation to Lee. - -Mr. JENNER. In relation to Lee? - -Mrs. PAINE. Indeed it is. Well, I will have to refer again to the -letter of April 7 where I said I didn't want to hurt Lee by such an -invitation, but that if they were unhappy, if their marital situation -was similar to mine, and this is not specifically in the letter, but if -he just did not want to live with her, that I would have offered this -as an alternative, really to both of them. I didn't want to get into a -position of competition with Lee for his wife. I thought about that, -and thought he might be very offended. - -Mr. JENNER. It is possible he might very well be. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it is possible he even might have been violent, but I -didn't think anything about that. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression of him up to this moment on -this score? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. As a man of temper? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Violence? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. None of that? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. I had met him once. - -Mr. JENNER. You invited the Oswalds to dinner on the evening of April 2? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What day of the week was that? - -Mrs. PAINE. Tuesday. - -Mr. JENNER. Did anything occur that evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, Michael picked them up. - -Mr. JENNER. Who did? - -Mrs. PAINE. Michael picked them up. - -Mr. JENNER. Your husband? - -Mrs. PAINE. At the Neely Street address. Has he talked about that? It -didn't come up? - -Mr. JENNER. I don't know. I haven't the slightest notion. I was talking -with you. - -Mrs. PAINE. Should I go ahead? I just want to get this first impression -into the record somewhere if he hasn't already. - -Representative FORD. I think it would be helpful if you gave your -impression of his impression. - -Mr. JENNER. Of his impression. - -Mrs. PAINE. All right. This I have learned since the assassination, he -didn't give me this impression as at the time we didn't talk that much. - -Mr. JENNER. Please, you are not giving us your impression of his -impression on this occasion, but rather your impression of what he said -to you after the assassination. - -Mrs. PAINE. You still want it? - -Representative FORD. I think it is important. - -Mr. DULLES. Let us hear it. - -Mrs. PAINE. He said--you must understand, that not living together -we talked together very little. I am sure he would have given me -his impression if we had been having dinner together the next day -afterwards, you see. He went over and Marina was not yet ready. He -thought that Lee was somewhat thoughtless. While doing absolutely -nothing to help her get ready, get the baby's things together, prepare -himself, he was quite impatient, thought she should be ready, and gave -orders while he himself sat down and talked to Michael, and Michael -carried the impression that Lee was somewhat thoughtless. - -Mr. DULLES. What did you do? That was about a half hour--what did you -do during that period? - -Mrs. PAINE. I was at the house preparing the dinner. - -Mr. DULLES. You were at home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. It has to be my impression of his impressions. I don't -recall the evening too well, the evening of the second. I do recall -we certainly had dinner together. I can't recall what the predominant -language was. Lee and Michael, of course, talked in English. Not -wanting to exclude her entirely from the conversation, I made -opportunity to talk with her in Russian after the meal was over. She -and I did the dishes and talked in Russian, and we were in the kitchen -while Michael was talking to Lee in English in the living room, so I do -not know what was said then between the two of them. - -Mr. JENNER. How did your husband get along with Lee Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, you probably have something on that. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your impression? I want your impression of how -your husband got along. - -Mrs. PAINE. Okay. He was initially very interested in learning what -sort of man this was who had taken such a dramatic and unusual step -to go to the Soviet Union and attempt to renounce his citizenship. -He thought here is a person that must have thought things out for -himself, a very individualistic person, not a follower of the masses, -and he wanted to hear what the ideology was that led Lee to this step. - -Michael has told me that he very soon felt that there wasn't much -ideology or thought, foundation. That Michael had thought he might be -able to learn from this man something and find at least good thinking -going on or inquiry, but he didn't find it. He rather found very rigid -adherence to a few principles such as the principle of the capitalist -exploiting the worker, and that this was a great moral failing of the -capitalistic society. Michael's own feeling was that Lee's view of -morality was very different from Michael's. - -Mr. JENNER. In what respect, Mrs. Paine? - -Mrs. PAINE. Michael recalls having--now, this is later. This is not -that evening. Did you expect it was? This is answering your question of -Michael's impression of Lee. - -Mr. JENNER. I wanted his initial impression. - -Mrs. PAINE. All initial impressions. Well, I have passed that. I have -gone considerably past it, in fact. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. How many times had you seen Marina up to this -moment, that is, up to April 2? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was two or three times besides the initial party in -February. - -Mr. JENNER. And your best recollection is that this was a nice, -pleasant evening, and that was about all? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your husband take the Oswald's home that evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. This is the second. When was the next occasion that you had -contact with either of the Oswalds? - -Mrs. PAINE. There is a notation of the eighth of April. I am looking on -my calendar, I have no other way of knowing, and one also on the tenth -which has an arrow going to the eleventh. - -Mr. JENNER. I would like to ask you a little bit about that before you -go into it. Would you describe for the Commission now the condition, -the physical condition, of your calendar there? - -Mrs. PAINE. Physical? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. There is a square, and in the square there is written -something. - -Mrs. PAINE. "Marina" is written this time in Russian. I am improving, -it seems. - -Mr. JENNER. In Russian. It is in the square dated April 10. - -Mrs. PAINE. I am talking now about the square on April 8. There is a -notation "Marina". - -Mr. JENNER. Is that all there is in that square? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is all that is in that square. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. Then the only thing that appears in the square for April 10 -is the name "Marina" in Russian, and an arrow pointing, an arrow from -it pointing, to April 11. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, go back, if you will, to April 8. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Does that refresh your recollection or stimulate you as to -whether you had any contact with Marina on that day or whether it was -prearranged and what the occasion was? - -Mrs. PAINE. Certainly, it says that there had been an arrangement to -get together. Whether we did I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. I thought you had read everything that appeared in that -square. Is there more than just the word "Marina" in the square? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. That is my recollection. But that refreshes your -recollection in turning that, that was a prearranged meeting? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, all of these were, since there was no way over the -telephone. - -Mr. JENNER. Is your recollection sufficiently refreshed to state -whether the meeting was a visit by you to her or she to you? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Does it have a relation to the letter that you say that you -prepared dated April 7, which is the day before? - -Mrs. PAINE. I might have taken it that day, I don't know. Yes; it is -entirely possible. I hadn't thought about it. - -Mr. JENNER. But anyhow my mentioning those two events together, does -that refresh your recollection or stimulate it more specifically on the -subject? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. It does not. You have no recollection beyond the fact that -on April 8 you have an entry with the word "Marina." Is that written in -Russian? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. The word "Marina" in Russian, it doesn't stimulate you in -any respect, does not stimulate your recollection? - -Representative FORD. At the time of the dinner at your home on April -2, following that or during that time, do you recollect any discussion -about General Walker between your husband and Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recollect any such discussion. - -Representative FORD. That night? - -Mrs. PAINE. If there was any it would have had to have been in the -living room while I was talking to Marina in Russian in the kitchen. I -didn't hear any reference to it. - -Representative FORD. You didn't hear any discussion that evening -between your husband and Lee Oswald about General Walker? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Representative FORD. Did your husband ever tell you subsequently of any -such discussion? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall it. There was one reference, but that was -later. - -Representative FORD. That was later. Do you recall when? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. It would be the Friday after U.N. Day, October the 4th. - -Representative FORD. That was October 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Representative FORD. And this was April 2d? - -Mrs. PAINE. 1963. - -Representative FORD. 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall any discussion of General Walker at all -with Marina or in the presence of Marina or with Lee Oswald or in his -presence in your home or their home or even out in the parkway on the -subject of General Walker up to April 11, 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Any discussion between yourself and your husband on that -day? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; none that I recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you subscribe to a newspaper? - -Mrs. PAINE. At that time I subscribed to the Irving local paper. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that an evening or a morning paper? - -Mrs. PAINE. At that time it was a morning paper. - -Mr. JENNER. Morning paper. Do you have a recollection of being aware in -the edition of April 11 of an attack on General Walker the night before? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is more likely that I heard it on television. I think I -must have heard it. - -Mr. JENNER. You have a television and a radio? - -Mrs. PAINE. We get news from the television. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were aware of the attack on General Walker the -evening of April 10. Did you see Marina Oswald on the 11th? - -Mrs. PAINE. I can only guess so judging from these marks on my calendar. - -Mr. JENNER. We would like your very best recollection, please, Mrs. -Paine? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall; I just don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. You just don't have any present recollection that you did -see her on the 11th or you didn't? You just have no--you are blank? - -Mrs. PAINE. I can only guess from the calendar, that is all. - -Mr. JENNER. Other than that entry you have no recollection whatsoever? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. DULLES. If you had seen her would it have been at her house, at her -apartment? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't even know that. - -Mr. DULLES. Wouldn't you have remembered four trips back and forth? - -Mrs. PAINE. I remember that I made such trips, but which day it is, it -is very difficult to know. - -Mr. DULLES. I see. But you think--have you had a recollection about -seeing her at this time, without pinpointing it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion between you and Marina on the -subject of the General Walker incident? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am trying to recall now when she first told me that Lee -was out of work. The next note I have of having seen them, and you must -understand this calendar by no means tells everything I have done or -would even be accurate about what I have done on account of what has -happened, but at some point she told me that he was out of work. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it some point near the time we are now discussing? - -Mrs. PAINE. Near the time we are now discussing. I am trying to get -some content in order to answer the question of what happened, did I -see her, what happened. The next date I have down for seeing her is a -picnic on the 20th of April. - -Mr. JENNER. Had she told you---- - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall it having been that long, but it probably -was, between the 11th and the picnic. It was before the picnic she told -that he was out of work and had been for a few days before he told her. - -Now, you probably know when he was out of work, but I don't, when he -lost his job. So I am judging that possibly this was mentioned on the -11th that he was out of work, because we did plan to have a picnic on -the 20th which included Lee, but it could have been even that day that -she told me that he was out of work and had been for some time. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any day on or about this time, the 10th or 11th -or 12th, within those 3 days, that you saw Marina, where your attention -was arrested by her being upset or disturbed? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. In any fashion? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I notice in your calendar and entry April 16, "St. -Marks open again 12 noon." Is that the school your children attend? - -Mrs. PAINE. No, they are both preschool age. It must have been an -Easter--my children are preschool age. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the occasion of your making that entry? - -Mrs. PAINE. I probably wanted to visit the class. - -Mr. JENNER. What class? - -Mrs. PAINE. A language class. This is a school at which I subsequently -taught. Last summer I taught at St. Marks School. - -Mr. JENNER. You were visiting the class in advance of your teaching? - -Mrs. PAINE. So I probably wanted to visit--no, just any language class -there, and inquired, I judge, you see, you will find on Good Friday no -school, too, the 12th. So I was marking when the Easter vacation was -for St. Marks in order to make plans sometime later to go and visit. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Would you return to April 2, that dinner. Is -that entry "dinner at 8"? I couldn't quite figure out---- - -Mrs. PAINE. I believe that is the 7. - -Mr. JENNER. Seven. Was anything said that night about Lee Oswald's work? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing. - -Mr. JENNER. About his job? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I asked him how could I reach them if I had to call -off a get-together. I had no way of telephoning Marina. If the child -got sick how would I tell her I am not coming. So I said could I have -his telephone at work in order to reach them through him if I felt it -necessary some time, and he wrote down for me the address and telephone -number of the place where he worked. This was on the 2d of April. - -Mr. JENNER. And that, I will turn to that, if I might, and that will be -Commission Exhibit 402, and we have a like photograph of the exhibit. -Is all of that exhibit in your handwriting? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I have just said he wrote down Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall. - -Mr. JENNER. There is one entry that is in his handwriting? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Give us the letter page of that, will you? - -Mrs. PAINE. The letter page, "O" for Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. "O" for Oswald. The entry Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall was -written by Mr. Oswald; all other entries on that page are in your -handwriting; is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Are all other entries in the entire address book in your -handwriting? - -Mrs. PAINE. Did we go over it? What did I say? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, we did this morning. - -Mrs. PAINE. I would guess so. I don't recall. Did we say so this -morning? I will have to look it over again. - -Mr. JENNER. I am not permitted to testify, Mrs. Paine. - -Mrs. PAINE. All right. You want me to look right now? I usually write -the addresses down myself, so it would be quite unusual for someone -else to. - -Mr. JENNER. Is this address book in the same condition now as it was -when you gave it to the police? - -Mrs. PAINE. I did not give it to the police, they took it, and I didn't -know it was gone until later that day. It is in the same condition -except it has been through the finger-printing process. - -Mr. JENNER. I am particularly interested---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is all in my handwriting. - -Mr. JENNER. I am particularly interested in the entries on the page -lettered "O," and I want to especially ask you whether that page is in -the same condition now as it was when it was---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask the witness why there are certain lines half -horizontal, half perpendicular there, certain of these? - -Mrs. PAINE. It means it is an old address, no longer applicable. - -Mr. DULLES. I see. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Dulles, you were referring to the page lettered "O"? - -Mr. DULLES. That is correct; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I had digressed or interrupted at that point because you, -for the first time, made reference to an entry in your address book -made by Mr. Oswald. - -Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence the document identified as Exhibit -401. - -Mr. McCLOY. Where is that---- - -Mr. JENNER. 402 rather. That is the address book. - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibit No. 402 was received in evidence.) - -Mr. JENNER. And you were relating that you inquired as to how you could -reach them if you had to reach them, and Mr. Lee Oswald wrote---- - -Mrs. PAINE. His work, the name of the company and the telephone number. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it they did not have a telephone? - -Mrs. PAINE. They did not; no. - -Mr. JENNER. Did they ever have a telephone even when they were in New -Orleans? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; they did not. - -Mr. JENNER. When they came back again to Dallas, they did not? - -Mrs. PAINE. They did not. - -(At this point in the proceedings Senator Cooper left the Commission -hearing room.) - -Mr. JENNER. Now, was the April 2d occasion the second time that you had -seen Lee---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Oswald? You had not seen him in the interim? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. When next did you see him? - -Mrs. PAINE. I next saw him on the 20th of April at a picnic at a park -near where they lived on Neely Street. - -Mr. JENNER. In between certainly the 2d of April and, possibly, in that -period from the 8th, 9th, 10th and 11th, let us take that period up, -until the time of the 20th, did you see Marina Oswald in between? - -Mrs. PAINE. Did you say between the 2d---- - -Mr. JENNER. Between the 8th and 10th through the 20th. - -Mrs. PAINE. I guess not; between the 11th or so and the 20th. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that your best recollection? - -Mrs. PAINE. So far as I know, no. - -Mr. JENNER. How did you communicate with her about the picnic? - -Mrs. PAINE. Probably by letter. - -Mr. JENNER. By a letter. Do you have that letter? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have--I don't know if I have it. I have a letter that -closes "October 20th" in my hand, a scratch note. - -Mr. JENNER. Could I look at that correspondence this evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. At the same time. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you. - -Then the next occasion was when you had the picnic on the 20th, is that -right? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I notice in that entry what looks to me like "Miss Mary -7:15." What is the significance of that? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is probably going out in the evening. It had no -relationship with the picnic at all. It has a relationship with a -dinner group which is at the time, you see the line "dinner group--7:15 -Miss Mary," who is a babysitter. - -Mr. JENNER. That entry has nothing to do with the Oswalds? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Without elaborating, please, Mrs. Paine, what would the -subjects of discussion between you and Marina and Mr. Oswald have been -at the picnic? - -Mrs. PAINE. At the picnic? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. He spent most of his time fishing. We saw almost nothing -of him and heard virtually nothing from him. I was impressed with his -unwillingness to be sociable really in this situation. He came to eat -when it was time to, and complained about the food. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he complain about the food? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was your husband present at this picnic? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; he was not. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you supply the food? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; Marina had cooked it. He complained about it. He caught -a fish, as I recall, and took it home to be cleaned. I hardly know who -would clean it. - -Representative FORD. Who did clean it? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't know. I left about that time. - -Mr. JENNER. What discussion occurred between you and Lee Oswald, if -any, with respect to his life in Russia on that occasion? - -Mrs. PAINE. None. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any conversation with him other than some -pleasantries? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe so. I can't even think of the pleasantry. - -Mr. DULLES. As I understand it, as you were sitting there, the picnic -took place in the park---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. What was he doing? - -Mrs. PAINE. He was way over at the lake fishing. - -Mr. DULLES. He was over fishing at the lake? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did any further discussion occur between you and Marina on -that occasion, or on any interim occasion, of Mr. Oswald's desire to -have her return to Russia or the fact that she did not wish the Russian -emigre group to know she was pregnant and was about to have a child? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically. I did feel that it wasn't a -particularly happy occasion. I don't recall it with lightness. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he out of work at that time or not? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he was out of work. I knew at that time he was out of -work. Whether I found out that morning or the previous time I had seen -her I don't recall. I only recall when she said he was out of work she -also said he had been out of work for a week or a few days before he -told her. - -Mr. JENNER. I would like to have you draw on your recollection as -closely as you can. Did you learn of his being out of work from him or -from Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. From her. - -Mr. JENNER. What did she say on that subject as to whether he was -discharged or whether he had left his employment, or did she say -anything in that area? - -Mrs. PAINE. I judged he had been discharged. - -Mr. JENNER. Give me your best recollection of what she said. - -Mrs. PAINE. Do you want something else? - -Mr. JENNER. Give me your best recollection of what she said, Mrs. Paine. - -Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall it that closely. - -Mr. JENNER. You next have an entry on April 24 reading "Lee and -Marina." Do you find it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that a meeting with Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife, -Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Where was that held? - -Mrs. PAINE. That was to be a visit at the apartment on Neely Street. - -Mr. JENNER. At their apartment? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did it take place? - -Mrs. PAINE. I arrived and found that he was packed to go to New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this a surprise to you? - -Mrs. PAINE. This was a distinct surprise. - -Mr. JENNER. Had there been some communication between you and the -Oswalds about your visiting them on the 24th of April? - -Mrs. PAINE. It had been arranged that I would come over to visit as -much as these other visits had been arranged, just with Marina to talk. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you had any visit with Marina between the 20th of April -and the 24th? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever? - -Mrs. PAINE. None. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you arranged on the 20th to visit on the 24th? - -Mrs. PAINE. Probably. - -Mr. JENNER. That is your best recollection? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What time of day did you arrive, or night? - -Mrs. PAINE. Mid-morning, perhaps around 10. - -Mr. JENNER. And then you found him packed or packing to leave? - -Mrs. PAINE. He was fully packed. I was evidently expected. I and my -car, because he asked if I could take these bags and duffel bags, -suitcases, to the bus station for him. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. Where he would buy a ticket to go to New Orleans, and he -said he had not been able to---- - -Mr. JENNER. What he said to you is what I am interested in. - -Mrs. PAINE. That he said---- - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. He said he had not been able to find work in Dallas, around -Dallas, and Marina suggested going to New Orleans, which is where he -had been born. - -Mr. DULLES. He said she had suggested? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. That is my best recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present now while he is relating this to you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I think so. - -Mr. JENNER. She was present. Was he speaking in Russian or in English? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think he must have been speaking in English when he asked -me to take the things to the bus station and explained that he was -going to look for work. - -Mr. JENNER. Your best recollection is that this was in English? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. It could well have been in Russian also. He -didn't like to speak English to me. He preferred to speak Russian. - -The CHAIRMAN. To you? - -Mrs. PAINE. To me; yes. - -Representative FORD. Did he ever indicate why? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. I think you said to me this morning, and please correct me -if my recollection is not good, that he always spoke to you in Russian. - -Mrs. PAINE. With, perhaps, a couple of rare exceptions, yes, he spoke -to me in Russian. When I tried to teach him to drive I tried to explain -to him, proceeded to explain to him in English. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, you tried to teach him to do what? - -Mrs. PAINE. To drive. This is later. - -Mr. JENNER. Drive, yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. But he would answer me in Russian, which is a way of -getting the person to go back to Russian. But I couldn't explain -driving in Russian, so I did it in English. - -Mr. JENNER. That incident, Mrs. Paine, is very important, and we will -get to that at a later stage as to your efforts to teach him to drive. - -Going back to this 24th of April, there was here, this was, a complete -surprise to you. You arrived at the home and this man was all packed to -go to New Orleans. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you had any discussion with Marina about her coming to -live with you of which she was aware prior to this occasion on April 24? - -Mrs. PAINE. I had discussed with her the possibility of her coming at -the time the baby was expected. - -Mr. JENNER. When was the baby expected? - -Mrs. PAINE. Mid-October. - -Mr. JENNER. But there had been no discussion up to April 24, to your -recollection, even about your inviting Marina to come to live with you? - -Mrs. PAINE. You mean on a more permanent basis, other than to stay when -the baby was due? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; which would be in the fall of the year. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. There was none. - -Mr. JENNER. There was no discussion about her coming to live with you -in the spring around about this time? - -Mrs. PAINE. I remember feeling when I arrived that they were, and -probably appropriately, making their own plans, and wondering whether I -should have already made this invitation, but I had not. - -Mr. JENNER. You say they were already making their own plans; are you -seeking to imply that they had some notion she might join you? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't think there was any notion. I am trying to say -I recall that I hadn't made that invitation at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection it is now that you had not -discussed the subject with Marina up to this occasion? - -Mrs. PAINE. Not the subject of staying on with me as an alternative to -going back to Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. Only staying with you in the fall? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. When the baby came? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you say, Mrs. Paine--excuse me. First, have you -exhausted your recollection of everything that Lee Oswald said on that -occasion when you arrived there? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you say? - -Mrs. PAINE. I said, yes, I would take his bags to the station if he -wanted me to. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. PAINE. And we then did. - -Mr. JENNER. You just left? - -Mrs. PAINE. Take them to the bus station to be checked. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Marina accompany you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Marina went, and he checked the baggage. It was rather more -than he could have carried on the city bus, and I am sure he preferred -me to a taxi because I don't cost as much. - -Mr. JENNER. You didn't cost anything? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. And he then bought a ticket, he bought a -ticket for Marina, I mean I was thinking, while he was in the bus -station, and suggested that it would be a very difficult thing for a -pregnant woman with a small child to take a 12-hour, 13-hour bus trip -to New Orleans, and suggested that I drive her down with June. - -Mr. JENNER. You volunteered this? - -Mrs. PAINE. I volunteered this, and suggested further that instead of -her staying at her--at the apartment, as was planned at that time, -while waiting to hear from him, that she come and stay at my house -where he would reach us by phone, and where she would have someone else -with her while she waited to hear if he got work. - -Mr. JENNER. This was the conversation between you and Lee Harvey -Oswald? Was it in English or in Russian? - -Mrs. PAINE. Probably in Russian. I would think so, because I wanted her -to understand. - -Mr. JENNER. Was Marina along? - -Mrs. PAINE. She was present. - -Mr. JENNER. She was present; I see. - -Representative FORD. This took place where, in the car? - -Mrs. PAINE. Probably in the bus station--in the car near the bus -station. He then took the bus ticket back, returned it, and got the -money. - -The CHAIRMAN. Ticket for her? - -Mrs. PAINE. Ticket for her. - -Mr. DULLES. Her bus ticket? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and he left some money for her for buying things in -the next few days before she could join him. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he get on the bus then and depart? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; the bus left in the evening. We all drove back to the -apartment after he had checked the baggage, and he helped load the baby -things and things that Marina would need during the next few days into -my car, and we emptied what was left there of the things that were in -the apartment, and which belonged to them, and then drove, I drove with -Marina and June and my two children back to my house, and he stayed -at the apartment. He was scheduled to leave by bus, city bus, and an -interstate bus that evening. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it then, Mrs. Paine, that your impression was that -it was contemplated, when you arrived at the Oswalds that morning, that -Mrs. Oswald, Marina, and her child June, and her husband, Lee, were -contemplating going to New Orleans together that day? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Am I wrong? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is wrong. She was to have stayed in the apartment. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mrs. PAINE. And wait to hear from him. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. If they had been going together that would not have been -the hardship on her, but that traveling alone was, I felt. - -Representative FORD. Why did he buy the ticket for her at the---- - -Mrs. PAINE. To leave with her so that she could follow him when he -called, to leave the ticket in her hand as a means of her following -him. I haven't been clear. - -Mr. JENNER. It was a little indefinite. - -Mr. DULLES. I thought the ticket had been redeemed; then he bought -another ticket? - -Mrs. PAINE. He bought a ticket for himself and a ticket for her. - -Mr. DULLES. You said, "I will take her," and then he redeemed the -ticket for her, and gave her the cash? - -Mr. JENNER. Gave her some money? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -The CHAIRMAN. But the ticket that he did buy for her---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Was to have been left with her. - -The CHAIRMAN. Was for a subsequent date? - -Mrs. PAINE. For a subsequent date following. - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is it. - -Mr. JENNER. That was clear to you on that occasion? - -Mrs. PAINE. That was clear. - -Mr. JENNER. She was scheduled to join him subsequently? - -Mrs. PAINE. She was scheduled to join him subsequently if he did find -work. If he found no work there would have been no point to her making -the trip. - -Mr. JENNER. Is this a discussion or is it your rationalization? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was clearly said she would stay. - -Mr. DULLES. I am puzzled. I am puzzled, Mr. Jenner, about this ticket -business. - -Mr. JENNER. I am, too. - -Mr. DULLES. A ticket was bought for her on the theory that she was -going with him first. - -Mr. McCLOY. No. - -Mr. DULLES. That is where I got off the track. He bought two tickets, -then why was the ticket redeemed? - -Mr. McCLOY. Because it was made clear by Mrs. Paine that she was going -to take Marina down in her own car. - -Mr. DULLES. But only going to stay with you during the period until he -got work, hence she wouldn't need a ticket. You were going to drive her -down? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You would drive her down all the way to New Orleans? - -Mrs. PAINE. In either case it was planned to delay going. - -Mr. DULLES. She would go down if he got work, but she would not need a -ticket if she stayed with you. Therefore, the ticket was redeemed. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But I did not think of this or suggest it until after -he had already bought the ticket. - -Representative FORD. May I ask this, Mrs. Paine? In the things that -were packed when you arrived, or things that were packed while you were -present---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Nothing was packed while I was present. It was already -packed. - -Representative FORD. Everything was already packed by the time you got -there? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Representative FORD. Were any of the things for Marina or Lee packed? - -Mrs. PAINE. They were all packed. I don't understand your question. -All of the things he wanted to take with him to the bus station were -already packed. - -Representative FORD. Well, in that group of things which were so -packed, were there things for Marina and Lee? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Representative FORD. I mean Marina and June, excuse me? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Some of their things were among those things, yes, I -judge so, clothing. The things that remained were a crib, playpen, baby -stroller, some dishes, some clothing. - -Representative FORD. The things you would not ordinarily take on a bus, -however. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it would be very difficult. That was another one of -the things that motivated me to suggest driving her down. I thought -sending these by train, with the risk of their getting strayed or--it -would be difficult, trying, for her to try to handle them, or convey -them with her by bus--that would have been worse. - -Representative FORD. But there were some things that were packed in the -things that Lee was going to take with him that would include things---- - -Mrs. PAINE. That belonged to---- - -Representative FORD. To--to Marina and to June? - -Mrs. PAINE. I would judge so simply by what remained. Surely it was not -the total sum of her clothing and June's clothing. - -Representative FORD. Which could lead a person to the conclusion that -at one stage of their discussion Marina was going to accompany Lee to -New Orleans. - -Mrs. PAINE. Not from the time I arrived. - -Representative FORD. From the station. - -Mrs. PAINE. It was clear she would stay up in the apartment. - -Mr. JENNER. Up to that time it appeared to you from what was in the -duffelbag---- - -Mrs. PAINE. I think he was carrying all he could to lighten her burden. -In other words, if and when she followed, he was carrying all he could. - -Mr. JENNER. Representative Ford is interested in this, Mrs. Paine---- - -Mr. DULLES. I am puzzled, too. - -Mr. JENNER. When you arrived at the Oswald apartment that morning, Lee -Oswald had duffelbags packed and some---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Suitcases. - -Mr. JENNER. Suitcases. He had in those suitcases and in the duffelbag -some of the apparel for Mrs.--Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. Of course, I did not see it. I have to guess what was in it. - -Mr. JENNER. But, from your knowledge of the household and afterwards, -this was at least your impression? - -Mrs. PAINE. That they must have included some of her things. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. Which, in turn, might lead to the inference that, -therefore, they contemplated at that moment from what he was taking -that Marina was ultimately to join him in New Orleans. - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; absolutely. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Was that your question? - -Representative FORD. Or even at one point in the process of packing, -she and June were going to accompany him to New Orleans on the bus. - -Mrs. PAINE. I didn't have that impression, no. No, he was going and -happened to stay with an aunt and uncle where he could live without -much charge. For her to come would have been quite a greater expense, -and a risky one without a job, nothing coming in, so he was hoping that -he could stay with the aunt and uncle while he looked, and then if he -got remunerative work, get an apartment and call her to come, too. - -Representative FORD. If that is so, and let us assume that is so---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Representative FORD. It puzzles me that he went into the bus station -and bought two tickets, one for himself and one for her. - -Mrs. PAINE. How would she get there? - -Representative FORD. Well, eventually she might have to go by bus. But -why should he at this time make an investment in a bus ticket when -there was no certainty---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes. - -Representative FORD. When she might follow? This is what puzzles me. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Well, I can only guess about this. I judge from his -having done this that he certainly intended for her to follow, and it -is also possible she couldn't have asked for a bus ticket herself. -If he had written her and said, "Don't come to New Orleans, come to -Nashville," and he had said, "That is where I have got my job," he -might have felt she would not know how to go and get such a bus ticket. - -Mr. DULLES. Is it also possible he may not have wanted to leave that -amount of money with her to buy a ticket and preferred to leave her a -ticket rather than cash? - -Mrs. PAINE. This is possible, this is possible. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Now, Mrs. Paine, in light of that speculation, tell us what discussion -there was on the subject. - -Mrs. PAINE. I think I have, that while he was in the bus station I -thought how difficult it would be for her to travel alone with the -baby, and all the things---- - -Mr. JENNER. And you raised that yourself for the first time at that -point? - -Mrs. PAINE. Then I said she might stay with me while waiting to hear -from him, and that I would drive her down if we did hear that he had -gotten work. - -Mr. JENNER. Had there been prior discussion that it was contemplated -that, if he obtained a position, she would join him in New Orleans, or -wherever he obtained a position. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. We had already talked about that at the apartment. - -Mr. JENNER. And that had been discussed with her present? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And discussed in Russian so that she could have understood -the discussion? - -Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, the staff is interested in Lee Harvey -Oswald's luggage. - -Mrs. PAINE. What? - -Mr. JENNER. His luggage. - -Mrs. PAINE. Luggage. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you please, to the best of your recollection, tell us -what pieces of luggage he had on that occasion, what they looked like, -their shape and form? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. He had two large marine duffelbags with his name on -them, and probably his Marine serial number. It was marked with a good -deal of white paint. It stood quite high. - -Mr. JENNER. Were they up-ended when you say high? You mean standing on -end, they were high? - -Mrs. PAINE. Standing on their end they would come well above this table. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. About 40 inches? - -Mrs. PAINE. Something like that; I would guess so. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, I am interested in just that. Would you go over -to the drawing board and move your hand, judge from the floor, and stop -right there? We will measure that later. - -Mrs. PAINE. Understand I saw those two later in my garage. - -Mr. JENNER. I understand, and I will get to that. That is just about 45 -inches, and there were two of them? - -Mrs. PAINE. There were two of them. Do you want anything about the rest -of the luggage? Does that interest you the most? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, I am interested, and I would like to stick with -the duffelbags for a moment. Was there any appearance as to either -duffelbag, which, to you, would indicate some long, slim, hard---- - -Mrs. PAINE. I assume them to be both full of clothes, very rounded. - -Mr. JENNER. I don't wish to be persistent, but was there anything that -you saw about the duffelbags that lead you at that time to even think -for an instant that there was anything long, slim and hard like a pole? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Or a gun, a rifle? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. No? Nothing? - -Mrs. PAINE. Nothing. I did not move these bags. - -Mr. JENNER. To the extent you saw them is all I am inquiring about. You -did not touch them, you did not lift them, but you saw them. - -Mrs. PAINE. I did. - -Mr. JENNER. There appeared--the entire circumference of these bags -which you could see was smooth? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, smooth, bumpy, but irregular. - -Mr. JENNER. But no stick, no hard surface. Now, what about the diameter -of these bags, these duffelbags, what would you say it was? - -Mrs. PAINE. About like this, 15, 18, 20 inches across. - -Mr. JENNER. Eighteen, twenty inches across? - -Mrs. PAINE. Probably more than that. - -Mr. JENNER. This is 15 inches. - -Mrs. PAINE. About like this; a little more than 15, probably. - -Mr. JENNER. About 18 inches. Now, how many pieces of luggage in -addition to the two duffelbags? - -Mrs. PAINE. Quite a few. There were probably three suitcases. - -Mr. JENNER. Three suitcases? - -Mrs. PAINE. Or more. A small radio bought in Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. I want to stick with the luggage. - -Mrs. PAINE. All right. - -Mr. JENNER. Three suitcases? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think so, two or three, and a large softsided suitcase, I -don't know what to call it. It zips around the side. - -Mr. JENNER. Zipper case? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, made of canvas. - -Mr. JENNER. We would like to have you describe that zipper case. - -Mrs. PAINE. It is green---- - -Mr. JENNER. I am interrupting you, I am sorry. Were there any other -pieces of luggage, first? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. So there were two or three or possibly four, is that true, -suitcases? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And there was a zipper case? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Describe this zipper case to us first. - -Mrs. PAINE. It stood about so high [indicating]. - -Mr. JENNER. So high is 15 inches, about 30 inches long? - -Mrs. PAINE. Not quite, about that long [indicating]. - -Mr. JENNER. It was a generous sized zipper case? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. With generally green canvas and leather, dark-colored -leather. - -Mr. JENNER. Black or brown--do you remember the color? - -Mrs. PAINE. Dark brown, I guess, or black, certainly very dark. - -Mr. JENNER. It was a generous sized one, was it not? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did it appear to be well packed? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you describe each of the three suitcases now, with -particular reference to the staff being interested in whether they were -rectangular, whether they were hard boarded types of things, or whether -they were canvas or soft? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't remember how many there were. I recall they had a -hard composition kind of suitcase such as you don't buy here, and I -judge they were bought in the Soviet Union. I think there may have been -two of those. - -Mr. JENNER. Was any one of them rectangular in shape? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. That was rectangular. - -Mr. JENNER. The one you specifically have in mind, he did have a -rectangular one? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And what color was it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Dark, blackish green, or dark brown, something of this -nature. - -Mr. JENNER. Anything else you can think about it in the way of -description? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think it had--it was reinforced, corners, with rivets, or -bolts, of something to hold it, hold the corners on it. - -Mr. DULLES. How long was this rectangular suitcase? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. In fact, I can't recall whether it was one -or two, but something like that, normal suitcases. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, may I have your permission to approach the -witness? - -Mr. McCLOY. And take the measurements? - -Mrs. PAINE. And take the measurements. - -Mr. McCLOY. The witness may be approached. - -Mrs. PAINE. That or larger, I would say. - -Mr. JENNER. You are now describing the length of the rectangular -suitcase, is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And that would be 21-1/2 inches? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That is your best recollection? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am brief in my recollection, a normal rectangular shape -here. - -Mr. JENNER. Width, that is the side, you mean? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is the whole thing. That is looking at the top. How -high it is. - -Mr. JENNER. No; wide. - -Mrs. PAINE. I am filling it out. This would be the width then from here -to here, possibly more. - -Mr. JENNER. Fourteen inches? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am not sure I am recalling one or two at the same time. I -have to be under oath, and giving you details on things I don't recall -that well. - -Mr. JENNER. All we are seeking is your best recollection. - -Mrs. PAINE. All right, that is my best recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. Twenty-one and a half times fourteen, and how high was it? - -Mrs. PAINE. About so, 6, about 6. - -Mr. JENNER. I said high. Was this lying flat on its side when you saw -it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, all these things again I saw in the fall, so it is a -mixed recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. I am going to get as to what you saw in the fall, but it is -important to us as to what you saw on this occasion. - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I particularly recall the duffels because they are -unusual, and I recall this bag being, I judge Russian make rather than -American, it was a large zipper bag. - -Mr. JENNER. And Mrs. Paine, you do recall that zipper bag on this -occasion? - -Mrs. PAINE. I believe so. - -Mr. JENNER. And there was at least one, if not more than one, -rectangular---- - -Mrs. PAINE. I can't be certain of the zipper bag. - -Mr. JENNER. Hard-sided suitcase? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; hard-sided suitcase. I can't be certain, absolutely -certain, of the zipper bag. I recall seeing so much of it since, -tripped over it numerous times, that it may be just that I recalled it. -I didn't move this luggage at all. - -Mr. JENNER. I am not suggesting that you did. - -Mrs. PAINE. I am sorry I can't remember it better. - -Mr. JENNER. Were all of these suitcases about the same size and shape? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You have described the rectangular one. Would you now -describe the second, the second in order of your recollection? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, there was at least another rectangular one. - -Mr. JENNER. Hard-sided? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it larger or smaller than the one you have described? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall with certainty. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there a third? - -Mrs. PAINE. There may have been a third. I certainly recall this radio -that was unusual. The others I don't. - -Mr. JENNER. It is possible you might be confused between the radio case -and a suitcase. - -Mrs. PAINE. No, no; no possibility of that. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. He checked all these articles, checked them into -the bus station? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And did you and Lee and Marina return to their home? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you remain there? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. He then helped pack up the remaining things, the -playpen, the bed, and then we left there midafternoon, perhaps 4, all -of this must have taken quite a long time, because---- - -Mr. JENNER. They removed everything from their home? - -Mrs. PAINE. They removed everything that remained to them. - -Mr. JENNER. Put it in the station wagon? - -Mrs. PAINE. Put it in the station wagon and went with Lee and Marina. - -Mr. JENNER. Your station wagon was big enough to hold everything in the -house, is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, they had no furniture, but it held all the rest of -their things; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he do the packing? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What were you doing in the meantime? - -Mrs. PAINE. Packing was haphazard, this packing was haphazard; put the -dishes in a box and carried it out to the car. - -Mr. JENNER. It was in the open so you could see what went into your car? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think so. I certainly then repacked it to go to New -Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I want to stick with this occasion, please. - -Mrs. PAINE. All right. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there a rifle packed in the back of the car? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. You didn't see any kind of weapon? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Firearm, rifle, pistol, or otherwise? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I saw nothing of that nature. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you drive them to your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Were the materials and things in your station wagon -unpacked and placed in your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; immediately. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see that being done, were you present? - -Mrs. PAINE. I helped do it; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see any weapon on that occasion? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Whether a rifle, pistol or---- - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Or any covering, any package, that looked as though it -might have a weapon, pistol, or firearm? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Up to this moment, Mrs. Paine, had there been any -discussion with Marina or with Lee Harvey Oswald in connection with his -life in Russia with the use of a firearm or his right to use one in -Russia? - -Mrs. PAINE. I never heard him mention anything of this sort. Michael -told me later he mentioned it to Michael. - -Mr. McCLOY. State that, please. - -Mrs. PAINE. Michael told me later that Lee had complained in Michael's -hearing that they did not permit a private individual to have a gun, -but I didn't hear that when it was said. So there was no discussion at -any time that mentioned guns, nothing brought up by Marina or Lee. - -Mr. JENNER. I will broaden my question. Up to--now up to, and not -including, up to November 22, 1963, had there ever been any discussion -between you and Lee Harvey Oswald or between you and Marina or any -discussion in the presence of either of them by anybody, including -yourself, about the use of a firearm by Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Marina told me that he had been hunting in the Soviet -Union. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, please, to the best of your recollection when did that -occur? - -Mrs. PAINE. When did she tell me? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. It might have been as long ago as May, when she was first -staying at my house. She quoted a proverb to the effect that you go -hunting in the Soviet Union and you catch a bottle of vodka, so I judge -it was a social occasion more than shooting being the prime object. - -Mr. JENNER. That was in this period when she was living with you in the -spring of 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. It could have been there. It might have been in October, -but I would guess it was in May. - -Mr. JENNER. I wish you would elaborate on that. - -Mrs. PAINE. I wish I wouldn't guess, I know. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she say that Lee Harvey Oswald had some kind of a -firearm in Russia? - -Mrs. PAINE. That he had gone hunting with a group, in other words, in -Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the occasion---- - -Mrs. PAINE. And she quoted this proverb. - -Mr. JENNER. Can you remember the circumstance in which she made that -utterance? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Anything that provoked it or brought it about? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think she was probably recalling something of their life -in Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. In a discussion between you and Marina as to their life in -Russia? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Any other occasion in which a discussion occurred between -you and either of them or in their presence while you were present on -the subject of a firearm prior to November 22? - -Mrs. PAINE. On one occasion around the middle of November I said to -Marina that---- - -Mr. JENNER. Was Lee Harvey Oswald present? - -Mrs. PAINE. He was not present. - -Mr. JENNER. Just Marina and you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Just Marina and I. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it in your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I said to her that I did not want to buy toy guns for -my children, and that this view of things was shared with a German -friend of mine who had been a young girl at the time of the last World -War in Germany, and she didn't wish to buy guns for her children to -play with, and I said too few people think about this. She said nothing -in reply. - -Mr. JENNER. She didn't say anything at all in response to that. Does -that exhaust your recollection of all discussion of firearms? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it does. - -Mr. JENNER. That occurred in your presence? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Up to November 22, 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. Up to, that is right. - -Mr. McCLOY. There was no suggestion of Lee's using a firearm for -hunting purposes in the United States? - -Mrs. PAINE. None; nor that he might have had any gun. - -Mr. McCLOY. Nor that he might have had any gun. - -Mr. JENNER. After Marina's things and the baby's things had been placed -in your home then what occurred in the evening, was this late in the -day of the 24th? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was close to supper. I am sure we then ate and put our -children to bed, possibly talked a short time. I no doubt explained -to her quite soon that I was to go away for the weekend. Indeed, this -invitation was made quite on the spur of the moment. You don't normally -invite someone to come and stay with you when you are about to go away, -but I was to go to a folk-dance camp with Michael that weekend, and you -see on the calendar "FDC" which stands for folk-dance camp, arrow San -Antonio. That is the 26th, 27th and 28th. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; I noticed that. - -Mrs. PAINE. And I left her in the house with the telephone number of -my Russian tutor to call, and I believe they talked, in fact, before I -left. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us the name of your Russian tutor. - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question that we passed by? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. When you unloaded Marina's things and the baby's things, -did this subtract one suitcase from this number you have indicated? Was -one of the suitcases delegated to her things or were they just loose in -the car? - -Mrs. PAINE. Insofar as I remember, I believe they were loose. - -Mr. DULLES. They were loose. So that the number of suitcases you have -indicated were those that were eventually checked and taken by Lee -Harvey Oswald to New Orleans. - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, that is the way I remember it. It does not seem -reasonable that he would go off without leaving her a suitcase to put -her things in, so I would guess there was something for her in the -nature, perhaps, of a small bag. - -Mr. DULLES. So that one of these bags may have been unloaded at your -house? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. You testified, I believe, you started to testify, that -there was also a radio that had been presumably purchased in Russia. -Did he take that with him? - -Mrs. PAINE. He took that. - -Mr. McCLOY. He took that with him. He didn't return that to her. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, I don't want to speculate, but I thought you -had testified in response to my questions that the two or three pieces -of luggage, that is, the suitcases, plus the two duffel bags, plus the -zipper bag, plus the radio, had been checked into the bus station. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is right. - -Mr. JENNER. All of those pieces of luggage were actually checked in, -and when you left the bus station none of the pieces of luggage or the -radio or the duffel bags had been placed back in your car. - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall it, but it seems to me unreasonable---- - -Mr. JENNER. Now, please, I don't want you to rationalize. I want your -best recollection. - -Mrs. PAINE. I cannot recall. I mean the suitcases that came to my -house---- - -Mr. JENNER. You don't recall having taken one of the pieces of luggage -and placed that piece back in your station wagon? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no, no, that is definite. All that went to the bus -station. - -Mr. JENNER. Remained there. - -Mrs. PAINE. Remained there. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mr. DULLES. At what stage did they go to the bus station? Did you go -from their apartment to your house and then to the bus station or did -you go to the bus station first? - -Mrs. PAINE. Directly to the bus station. - -Mr. DULLES. And then went to your house? - -Mrs. PAINE. Directly to the bus station from their apartment, back to -their apartment and picked up the rest of the things. - -Mr. DULLES. I see. - -Mrs. PAINE. The baby things and her clothing and then went to my house. - -Mr. DULLES. I see. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, apart from your rationalization, do you have -the recollection that there was any luggage at all in the Oswald home -when you got back? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I have no such recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. So that in response to Mr. Dulles' questions when you -talked about the possibility of some luggage, you were rationalizing? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. You are not drawing on your recollection? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it your best recollection, in fact, is that there -was no luggage remaining at the Oswald home when you got back? - -Mrs. PAINE. There was nothing packed when we got back. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall undertaking to pack anything when you got -back in order to remove what they had there remaining to your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. You mean was there a suitcase into which I could pack -anything? - -Mr. JENNER. That is it. - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you have related to us that you went away -for the weekend. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. With your husband. - -Mrs. PAINE. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you have an entry in your diary, and I quote it on the -24th of April, 1963: "Lee and Marina." - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that an entry made after the fact? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I judge that was---- - -Mr. JENNER. Now, please give me your best recollection. - -Mrs. PAINE. That was the plan to meet, knowing Lee was no longer -working; it was there for not only a meeting with Marina, but I -expected to see them both at the apartment. - -Mr. JENNER. So that is confined to the meeting you expected to have -with Lee and Marina that morning when you went there and, to your -surprise, you found that Mr. Oswald was all packed to go to New Orleans. - -Mrs. PAINE. All packed and looking for a cab; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. How long did Marina remain in your home on that occasion? - -Mrs. PAINE. She stayed then until May 9--well, excuse me, she stayed -until the 10th of May. - -Mr. JENNER. You have an entry, do you not, in your diary as to the May -9th or 10th. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Read it. - -Mrs. PAINE. It says now going over to the 11th "New Orleans." - -Mr. JENNER. And you have written across then "May 10 and May 11," is -that right? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. What does the "New Orleans" signify, please? - -Mrs. PAINE. Lee called on the evening of the 9th to say he had work. - -Mr. JENNER. You recall that? - -Mrs. PAINE. I recall that definitely. Marina says, "Papa naslubet," -"Father loves us," "Daddy loves us, he got work and he wanted us to -come." She was very elated. - -Mr. JENNER. This is Marina talking to you? - -Mrs. PAINE. I could see as she talked on the phone. - -Mr. JENNER. You overheard this conversation? - -Mrs. PAINE. Afterward. She said over and over, "Papa naslubet," "Daddy -loves us," "Daddy loves us." - -Mr. JENNER. She was elated? - -Mrs. PAINE. She was elated and, let's see, we tried to think when we -could leave, and first said over the phone that we would leave on the -morning of the 11th. But I thought it would be too long to do all this -in one day, and we accelerated our preparations and left midday on the -10th which got us to Shreveport. - -Mr. JENNER. Before we get into this, and I would like to cover this -interim period before any adjournment today; there was a 16-day period -now, approximately, maybe we will limit it to 15 days, that Marina -stayed with you in your home. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have conversations with her about her husband? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. About their life in Russia? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, even going so far as to wonder---- - -Mr. JENNER. During this 15-day period? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. We had such conversations. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you please relate to us your discussions with Marina -with respect to her husband Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, she wondered if he did, in fact, love her. - -Mr. JENNER. What did she say? - -Mrs. PAINE. She said she supposed most couples had at some time -wondered about this. She wondered herself whether she loved him truly. -She talked some of her few months of dating that she had in Minsk, and -of living there. - -Mr. JENNER. That is before her marriage to Lee Harvey? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. At some point, and I want to tell you this, whether -it is appropriate or whether it happened later in October, I can't be -certain, but I think in May she told me that she had written a letter -to a previous boyfriend, and that this letter had come back because she -had put insufficient postage on it, and Lee had found it at the door -coming back through the mail, and had been very angry. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she go beyond that? - -Mrs. PAINE. She did not. To tell me what was in the letter, you mean? - -Mr. JENNER. I am not thinking so much within the letter. Did she go -beyond stating that he was merely only angry? Was there any discussion -about his having struck her? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; none. No; none. She never mentioned to me ever that Lee -had struck her. - -Mr. JENNER. And during all the visits you ever had with her, all the -tete-a-tetes, her living with you on this occasion we now describe as -15-1/2 days, and in the fall, was there any occasion when Marina Oswald -related to you any abuse, physical abuse, by her husband, Lee Harvey -Oswald, with respect to her? - -Mrs. PAINE. There was never any such occasion. - -Mr. JENNER. Never any such occasion. And in particular this incident? - -Mrs. PAINE. She related this incident, but it did not include anything -further than he had been very angry and hurt. - -Mr. JENNER. Up to this time, that is, the time she came to you on the -24th, had you ever seen any bruises---- - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I never saw her---- - -Mr. JENNER. On her person? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I never saw her bruised. - -Mr. JENNER. At no time that you have ever seen her or known her, have -you ever seen her bruised? - -Mrs. PAINE. At no time. - -Mr. JENNER. So that there has been no occasion when you have seen it, -or been led to believe, she had been subjected to any physical abuse by -her husband? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion during these 15 days of any -occasion when Marina had gone off to live with someone else? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. I think she told me that in the fall. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. As long as I have raised that, would you please give -us the time and the occasions and tell us what occurred? - -Mrs. PAINE. What she told me? - -Mr. JENNER. What she said. When was this? - -Mrs. PAINE. This probably was in October. She told me that the previous -year she had---- - -Mr. JENNER. 1962? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. She had in the fall, she had gone to a friend's home, -left Lee. She described his face as she left, as shocked and dismayed -and unbelieving. - -Mr. JENNER. Unbelieving? - -Mrs. PAINE. In a sense that she was truly walking out on him. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. Excuse me. Did she put it in those terms, that she was -leaving? - -Mrs. PAINE. She was leaving; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. She left him? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and went to stay with a friend. Then moved to the -home---- - -Mr. JENNER. Did she name the friend? - -Mrs. PAINE. She did not name the friend; no. The friend's name came up -in another connection, but I had no way of making the connection until -after I learned about this to whom she referred. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you now recall the name? - -Mrs. PAINE. She went to Katya Ford's. - -The CHAIRMAN. To the Fords? - -Mrs. PAINE. To Katya, being the friend, Mrs. Ford. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Ford. - -Mrs. PAINE. And then moved. She did tell me this. She had moved on the -weekend to a different home. Then Lee came there, pleaded for her to -come back, promised that everything would be different. She went back -and she reported--as she reported it to me, things were no different. - -Mr. JENNER. Were not different? - -Mrs. PAINE. Were not different. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you undertake a discussion with her as to what the -things were that were disturbing her? - -Mrs. PAINE. That offended her that much? No; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. That led her to leave her husband? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. There was no discussion of that? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you ever witness any altercations? - -Mrs. PAINE. Indeed I saw them argue a good deal. - -Mr. McCLOY. Sharp arguments? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. But no violence of any kind? - -Mrs. PAINE. No physical violence. - -Mr. McCLOY. Any profanity? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am not sure I know Russian profanity. He was very curt -and told her to shut up quite a great deal. - -Mr. JENNER. In your presence? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In the presence of others? - -Mrs. PAINE. Particularly in New Orleans the first time when we went -down, when I took her to New Orleans in May, he was very discourteous -to her, and they argued most of that weekend. I was very uncomfortable -in that situation, and he would tell her to shut up, tell her, "I said -it, and that is all the discussion on the subject." - -Representative FORD. What were the kinds of discussions that prompted -this? - -Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall that, and I have already had my brain -picked trying to, with other people trying to, to recall what was the -difficulty. I do recall feeling that the immediate things they were -talking about were insufficient reason for that much feeling being -passed back and forth, and I wondered if I wasn't adding to the strain -in the situation, and did my best to get back to Texas directly. But -the--well, I do recall one thing, yes--we arrived with a big load of -blackberries that we bought from a vendor along the street. - -Representative FORD. On the way down? - -Mrs. PAINE. On the way down, on the road, and ate them, and then, -he, one morning, started to make blackberry wine, and she bawled him -out for it, what a waste of good blackberries, and she said, "What -do you think you are doing? Ruining all this." And he proceeded, and -argued about it, but thought he should, you know, defend himself. On -this occasion she was making the attack in a sense and didn't think -he should do it this way, and then, so, under fire and attack, he -continued. But then the next day she observed that he had tossed it all -out and lost heart after the argument, and decided it wasn't---- - -Mr. DULLES. He tossed out the wine? - -Mrs. PAINE. He tossed it out; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You detected, then, irritability as between them. Is that a -fair statement? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is accurate. - -Mr. JENNER. And anger rose to the surface pretty easily? - -Mrs. PAINE. Very easily. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your impression? Of course he hadn't seen her then -for a couple of weeks. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us about it--when she came in. Did they embrace? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. We arrived at his uncle's in one section of New -Orleans, and had a very friendly half hour or so---- - -Mr. JENNER. Was he there? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he was there. He introduced her and little June, and -played with June, on his shoulders, perhaps. At any rate, he was very -glad to see the baby, and was congenial and outgoing. We talked with -the relatives for a short time. - -Then the uncle drove them to the apartment--I was following with my -children in my car--drove to the apartment he had rented, which was in -a different section of the city. And Lee showed her, of course, all -the virtues of the apartment that he had rented. He was pleased that -there was room enough, it was large enough that he could invite me to -stay, and the children, to spend the night there. And he pointed out -this little courtyard with grass, and fresh strawberries ready to pick, -where June could play. And a screened porch entryway. And quite a large -living room. And he was pleased with the furniture and how the landlady -had said this was early New Orleans style. And Marina was definitely -not as pleased as he had hoped. I think he felt--he wanted to please -her. This showed in him. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us what she said. What led you to that conclusion? - -Mrs. PAINE. She said it is dark, and it is not very clean. She thought -the courtyard was nice, a grass spot where June could play, fenced in. -But there was very little ventilation. We immediately were aware there -were a lot of cockroaches. - -Mr. JENNER. Was she aware of this, and did she comment on that? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't know as anything was said. He was pretty busy -explaining. He was doing his best to get rid of them. But they didn't -subside. I remember noticing that he was tender and vulnerable at that -point, when she arrived. - -Mr. JENNER. He was tender? - -Mrs. PAINE. Hoping for--particularly vulnerable, hoping for approval -from her, which she didn't give. It wasn't a terribly nice apartment. -And she had been disappointed, because when we first arrived she -thought that the home we were going to was the apartment. - -Mr. JENNER. She thought the Murrets' home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. So when we came up to the Murrets' home, she said, -"This is lovely, how pleased I am." So that she was in--disappointed by -contrast with the apartment that she really had to live in. - -Representative FORD. She expressed this? - -Mrs. PAINE. She expressed her disappointment; yes; and didn't meet his -hopes to be pleased with it. - -Mr. DULLES. As compared with their previous place of residence, how was -the New Orleans apartment? It was bigger, I gather. - -Mrs. PAINE. It was larger. It was darker, less well ventilated. It -was on the first floor, the other was upstairs. I would say they were -comparable in cost and in attractiveness. - -Mr. JENNER. What about vermin? - -Mrs. PAINE. I didn't see any vermin at the first place. But then I -didn't spend the night there. - -Mr. JENNER. So the welcoming was cordial? - -Mrs. PAINE. The welcoming was cordial. - -Mr. JENNER. They seemed to have a fine relationship at that moment? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. But as the weekend progressed, and she saw the new -apartment, all the time you were there, you were aware of friction and -irritability? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Going back to the 15 days again, was there any discussion -during this period, again, on the subject of Mr.--of Lee Oswald wishing -Marina to return to Russia? - -Mrs. PAINE. I believe I made definite, but only verbal, an invitation -for her to stay on with me, past the time of the baby's birth, if she -wished to. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it--I will get into that. But I take it your answer -to my question first is yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, tell us what that discussion was. - -Mrs. PAINE. Well---- - -Mr. JENNER. And how it arose. - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, we still discussed the possibility of her coming back -to have the baby here--although by no means a definite--definitely -planned. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. I am a little confused. When you say coming back -to have the baby here---- - -Mrs. PAINE. It was assumed she would go to New Orleans when he called, -but we talked about the possibility of her coming back to Dallas. I -said she was still welcome to if she wants to, if it seems appropriate, -to come here to have the baby. - -Mr. DULLES. That was to your house, you mean? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; to stay at my house before, or especially right after -the baby's birth, where I could look after June while she was in the -hospital and later. June didn't take readily to strangers. She did -like me and was comfortable with me, so I felt she might want to have -someone she knew and got along with. - -Mr. JENNER. But in this connection, was there a discussion between -you and Marina Oswald subject to her husband wishing her to return to -Russia? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe she again said that he was after her to -return. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, then, on the whole, your answer to my question would -be no. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. As far as I recall, it came up only once in -our discussions prior to New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. Which you have already related? - -Mrs. PAINE. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion during the 15-day period on the -subject of her acquiring greater facility with the English language? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And his attitude toward that? - -Mrs. PAINE. His attitude had already been discussed, and I don't -believe it was particularly discussed further. But she did indicate -that she was going to try to learn some anyway. - -Mr. JENNER. Despite that? - -Mrs. PAINE. I judged so. I asked if she had a book written in Russian -entitled "The Self Teacher in the English Language." She did not. -And I ordered it. And I think I gave it to her even then. I am quite -certain of that. This turned out to be not much help. At least she was -interested in trying to learn English. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion of the subject of it being -disclosed to the Russian emigre group that she was pregnant. - -Mrs. PAINE. No; she continued to ask me not to mention that. We did, -however, meet someone in the Russian emigre group in Fort Worth after -she had the first day put on maternity clothes--and so she was sorry -that that meeting had occurred. She judged now people would know. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Did anything else occur in the way of -discussions during that 15-day period on the subject of life in Russia, -his political philosophy, how they got along, his general disposition, -her reaction to America? - -Mrs. PAINE. She discussed her reaction to America. She was very -impressed with the variety of goods available in the stores. She -thought the quality was better here than in Russia. Then there was more -of that later in October. - -Mr. JENNER. I will get to that, in October. Have we pretty well -exhausted this 15-day interim period, then? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. Mr. Jenner, may I ask a question there? During -this 15-day period, did any individual, male or female, come and visit -you at your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. You mean particularly to see her? I am sure there are -people coming and going at my house. There must have been. For -instance, May 1, Mary--this is again Miss Mary referred to previously, -a babysitter, "8:15. War and Peace." Mary came and stayed with my -children, and Marina and June and I went to see War and Peace. Miss -Mary recalls that meeting. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that a play or the movie? - -Mrs. PAINE. This is the movie, War and Peace, in English. But, of -course, she knew the story, so she could enjoy seeing it. "Ed tennis -confirm." I went over to play tennis. On the fourth of May, Craig's -children--they came here. - -Representative FORD. Into your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Probably. - -Mr. JENNER. Who is Craig? - -Mrs. PAINE. Craig is this young German woman who didn't want to buy -guns for her children either, that I mentioned. And we exchanged -children often. - -Mr. JENNER. Does she speak Russian? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; German only, and English. And, mow the lawn, it says -on the third, but that is not me, it is a neighbor who mows the lawn. -And May 9 in the morning, "Ilse"--means Mrs. Craig again--kept my -children while I went at 8:10 to Saint Marks for an interview. So there -was a normal flow. And I told my immediate neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, who -figures later, that Marina was there over the weekend, that I wouldn't -be there, and introduced them, so Marina could go to Mrs. Roberts and -make signs or symbols if she had to get a message through to someone. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Roberts is your next door neighbor? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Then your response to Representative Ford's question is -that---- - -Mrs. PAINE. A normal flow to my house. - -Mr. JENNER. But there wasn't anybody that came specifically to see her -from the Russian emigre group, is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Representative FORD. Were there any telephone calls to her from anybody -of this group, or any other group? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. I made the contact for her with my tutor, got her to -call. But that is all. - -Mr. DULLES. She probably could not operate the telephone. - -Mrs. PAINE. She could. That was the first I knew. I wasn't certain. But -she knew how to operate the telephone. - -Mr. JENNER. I am pleased you raised that, sir. She could dial. Did you -have the dial system in effect at that time? - -Mrs. PAINE. Way out in Irving; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And she could dial the number if she wished? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she knew how to do that. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you at any time get any evidence to indicate that she -was in touch with any Soviet officials at all, the consul general? Did -she ever talk of going to the Soviet Embassy or the Soviet Consulate in -regard to her problems? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. The only thing ever mentioned was this that I have -already mentioned for the record--that she had written to the Soviet -Embassy inquiring about papers to go back. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you think she did that on her own initiative? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; because he was insisting. - -Mr. DULLES. We have a copy of that letter, have we not? - -Mr. McCLOY. Did she ever tell you why she didn't want to return to the -Soviet Union? - -Mrs. PAINE. She said she liked America better. - -Mr. McCLOY. And she rather liked the conditions here better than she -had experienced them in the Soviet Union? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. And that you think was her fundamental motivation for -staying here? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. Wanting to stay here? When you were in contact with her at -all did any--when she was staying with you, was there any unidentified -characters or people that called to see her? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; there was no one at all that called to see her. - -Mr. JENNER. Were there any telephone calls received during that period -when you answered the phone that someone asked for Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. Only that from Lee on the night. - -Mr. JENNER. Only from Lee? - -Mrs. PAINE. Only from Lee. - -Mr. JENNER. No other calls to her? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And no other callers--that is persons who came to your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. None. - -Mr. McCLOY. What was the name of these--De Mohrenschildts. Did they -communicate with her when she was with you? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; my impression is they were already out of the country. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any mail received or delivered to your home -during this period for her? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't think so. It is possible that Lee wrote once. I -think it is more likely she wrote him. - -Mr. JENNER. In the household goods and paraphernalia transferred to -your house, were there any books, pamphlets, literature? - -Mrs. PAINE. I didn't see any. - -Mr. JENNER. You did not see any? - -Mrs. PAINE. I did not. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you ever engage in any discussion or dialectics with -Lee about the respective merits of the capitalist system or the Soviet -system? Did you engage in any debates with him on political philosophy? - -Mrs. PAINE. I once listened to such a debate between Lee and my -husband, in October. - -Mr. DULLES. You kept out of the debate? - -Mrs. PAINE. I tried hard. I felt it was not going anywhere, and that -he was not a man that could be approached by logic, and that there was -no point to arguing with him. I disagreed with him quite strongly, -and I didn't see how it would help in any way to say so, or to try to -change--certainly it would not have helped to try to change his views. -He, for instance, was of the opinion that all churches were an arm of -the state, intent upon blinding the people. I thought his thinking -was extremely erroneous, and not open to introduction of other facts, -anything contradictory to his own view. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did he become intemperate in argument? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not. - -Mr. McCLOY. But in the course of his discussions with your husband, did -he assert adherence to the element of violence as a factor---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Michael tells me he did. I didn't hear that particular -discussion. - -Representative FORD. In response to Mr. McCloy, you told of this -argument that your husband and Lee Oswald had. You said it was October. -This is October 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. Do you have any more questions? We are going to resume in -the morning at 9 o'clock. - -The CHAIRMAN. Will you be here? - -Mr. McCLOY. Yes; I will be here. - -The CHAIRMAN. Then you continue to preside throughout her testimony. I -will be here, though. - -Mr. DULLES. I have no questions. - -Mr. McCLOY. Do you want to close? - -Mr. JENNER. I would just as soon adjourn now, if it suits your -convenience. - -Mr. McCLOY. All right. We will excuse you. Thank you for your -cooperation. - -(Whereupon, at 5:20 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -_Thursday, March 19, 1964_ - -TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED - -The President's Commission met at 9:05 a.m. on March 19, 1964, at 200 -Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. - -Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman -Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, John -J. McCloy, and Allen W. Dulles, members. - -Also present were Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel; and Wesley -J. Liebeler, assistant counsel. - - -Mr. McCLOY. Mrs. Paine, I must remind you that you are still under -affirmation. We don't take a new affirmation with each hearing. - -Mr. JENNER. We had concluded, if you recall, the 15-day period in May -that Mrs. Oswald resided at the home of Mrs. Paine. - -Would you please describe for us the items of household furniture, or -whatever the articles were, that were packed in your station wagon when -you took Mrs. Oswald to New Orleans? - -Mrs. PAINE. We packed in a play pen and crib. I recall a stroller, some -kitchen utensils, and personal clothing for herself and the baby. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any luggage of any character? - -Mrs. PAINE. There may have been a small suitcase but I don't recall it -specifically. - -Mr. JENNER. You do not? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am just guessing. - -Mr. JENNER. As I recall you have told us yesterday that when you -arrived in New Orleans, you went by the Murrets' home first? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And then from the Murrets' home to the apartment at, what -was that address on Magazine Street? - -Mrs. PAINE. 4907. - -Mr. JENNER. That was 4907 rather than 4905. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, there has been a touch of testimony, at least -of the possibility that Mr. Oswald may have dry-fired or dry-sighted -any rifle in the courtyard or garden space at 4907? - -Would you be good enough to draw for us free hand the layout, at least -the ground layout of the 4907 premises on Magazine Street in New -Orleans? - -Mrs. PAINE. Now, shall I describe this? - -Mr. JENNER. Could I first show the diagram. I have marked the diagram -the witness has drawn as Commission Exhibit No. 403. - -(The diagram referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 403 for -identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, might it be helpful and permissible if I had -the witness stand to your rear and point to the diagram so that you -might follow her testimony? - -Mr. McCLOY. Very well. - -Mrs. PAINE. This street is Magazine Street; it is a corner house. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine, left on your plot is east and west -and up and down are north and south? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is the way I recall it. This is a corner house -and there was room enough---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, I have to keep the record. You are referring now -to a square on the right-hand margin of your outline. - -Mrs. PAINE. Between this house, and the courtyard and house where the -Oswalds were staying, there was room enough to drive a car. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you marked the courtyard with that word? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you have written "courtyard" in the sort of an "L" -shaped space that you have indicated on the plot, is that right? - -Mrs. PAINE. This is a square space cut by a walk. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. PAINE. This was a low fence. - -Mr. JENNER. When you say this, it does not help us on the record; what -is this to which you have pointed--you have written something across it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Around this courtyard and in front of the house was a low -metal picket fence. - -Mr. JENNER. That you have so designated? - -Mrs. PAINE. Correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you. - -Mrs. PAINE. There was grass within this small courtyard or walk, -steps---- - -Mr. JENNER. Which you have also marked "walk"? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Steps going up. - -Mr. JENNER. Which you have likewise so marked? - -Mrs. PAINE. To a screened porch. - -Mr. JENNER. Likewise so marked? - -Mrs. PAINE. And then the doorway from the porch goes into the living -room. - -Mr. JENNER. And the living room is marked "Living room." Would you use -those names and those designations as you testify? - -Mrs. PAINE. All right. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please indicate the courtyard or square or -oblong portion you have marked, rectangular portion, that was open -space, was it, it was not roofed? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was fully open. - -Mr. JENNER. It was fully open, and it faced out on Magazine Street? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And was there open space to the east, that would be toward -the building, which you have merely designated as an empty square? - -Mrs. PAINE. I will write in here "driveway;" this was open here as a -driveway. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, is that what you have now marked a building, a -dwelling? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was a dwelling. - -Mr. JENNER. Were there dwellings to the south of Magazine Street and on -the opposite side of the street? - -Mrs. PAINE. That so far as I recall, that is my best recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. What was to the east in the way of dwellings or buildings? - -Mrs. PAINE. The rest of the house; they lived in a portion; entered -from the side door of a large house; I assume it was once a one-family -dwelling. - -Mr. JENNER. Then for our purpose here as far as the courtyard is -concerned on the east it was--there was a walk? - -Mrs. PAINE. A building. - -Mr. JENNER. West, I am sorry. On the west line of the courtyard there -was a walk? - -Mrs. PAINE. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. On the north of the courtyard there was the screened porch -and to the east, but with intervening driveway there was a dwelling -house? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Then the courtyard was open on Magazine Street? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Does your recollection serve you that anybody standing in -the courtyard and dry-sighting a rifle would be visible to people who -just happened by, or who would be looking out a window on the south -side of Magazine Street, or in the home or in the dwelling house to the -east of the courtyard? - -Mrs. PAINE. He would have been very visible. Would have collected a -clutch of small boys. - -Mr. JENNER. This was a neighborhood, then, in which there were small -children? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it a reasonably busy street? - -Mrs. PAINE. Very busy street. - -Mr. JENNER. What were the days of the week that you were there when you -returned, when you brought Mrs. Oswald to New Orleans? - -Mrs. PAINE. When we first went down, we arrived on Saturday, I was -there Sunday and Monday and left Tuesday morning. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Does your recollection serve so that you can state that the days -you were there you observed during the daytime, at least many or a -reasonable number of small children and mothers and fathers, in and -about the neighborhood? - -Mrs. PAINE. A good many small children and adults. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that likewise true when you returned in September about -which you will testify in a few moments? - -Mrs. PAINE. That was certainly true in September. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. -403, a plot which Mrs. Paine has just drawn and which is so marked. - -Mr. McCLOY. So received. - -(The diagram referred to heretofore, marked Commission Exhibit No. 403 -for identification, was received in evidence.) - -(At this point, Mr. Dulles entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. JENNER. Was the dwelling in which the Oswalds were residing, 4907 -Magazine Street, a single level or a double level house? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was all on the ground floor. - -Mr. JENNER. It was a one-story house, one story high? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was a segment of a house that probably had two stories -to it. I don't recall. But the segment they had was all on one level. - -Mr. JENNER. And that was the ground level? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to Exhibit No. 403, and Mr. -Dulles, would you favor me by handing her the exhibit, and with -particular reference to the screen porch, the screen porch likewise -opened up on Magazine Street, did it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, it was set back a short space from the street, but -the door opened up toward Magazine. - -Mr. JENNER. The screened portion, that is, that faced on Magazine -Street? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. If anyone were on the screen porch, let us say, -dry-sighting a rifle or some other firearm, would he be, would that -person be observable from Magazine Street, and from the east? - -Mrs. PAINE. I doubt he would have been noticed from Magazine Street. A -small boy passing in the driveway could have looked through the screen, -up to the---- - -Mr. JENNER. That is to the east? - -Mrs. PAINE. I will mark "screen" on the south and east side so you know -it is screened on both sides. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall for certainty but there may have been a kind -of shade that could have been put down. It was not when I was there, -down, but there may have been some means of---- - -Mr. JENNER. Lattice shade? - -Mrs. PAINE. Putting down a lattice blind. - -Mr. JENNER. A blind or something? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Of course, if the blind were down no one could see it. Did -you have occasion when you were there, Mrs. Paine, on either of your -two trips to be on the screen porch? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And looking out? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And was there any impediment to your view? - -Mrs. PAINE. No, I could see the street very well. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion there on either of those occasions to -be out in the courtyard or on the street to be looking into the porch -area. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Could you see the persons, from the courtyard, could you -see persons behind the screen? - -Mrs. PAINE. From the courtyard you could see persons behind the screen. - -Mr. JENNER. Do I take it then by your emphasis on courtyard, do you -mean by that if you were on Magazine Street itself, that is the -sidewalk in front of the home it would be difficult to see in? - -Mrs. PAINE. Looking directly in you would notice someone but just -passing by you would not have been apt to see them. - -Mr. JENNER. But if you looked directly you could see in on the porch? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think so; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You mentioned yesterday a series of letters and -correspondence and you spent some time with me last night and we went -over all that, do you recall? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have your summary we worked with last night at hand -to assist you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you mind taking that out, please? - -You mentioned yesterday in your testimony a note that you had sent -to Marina Oswald shortly after your initial acquaintance with her in -February of 1963. Did you receive a response to that note? - -Mrs. PAINE. I did; and I have that response. - -Mr. JENNER. I have here a document which we will mark as Commission -Exhibit No. 404, including its envelope as 404A. - -Is that the document or note you received from Mrs. Oswald and the -envelope? - -(The document and envelope referred to were marked Commission Exhibits -Nos. 404 and 404A, respectively, for identification.) - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. Did that reach you in the ordinary course of its posting by -mail? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with the handwriting of Marina Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am now. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that--do you identify the handwriting in that document -404? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is her handwriting. - -Mr. JENNER. That is hers. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And is it in the same condition now as it was when you -received it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. And that is her response to your note? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence as Exhibit No. 404 the document now so -marked. - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. - -(The letter and envelope referred to, heretofore marked for -identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 404 and 404-A, were received -in evidence.) - -Mr. JENNER. Now, that is in what language? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is in Russian. Except for the address on the outside. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Have you made a translation of that note? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have. - -Mr. JENNER. And is it the translation on the notes that you exhibited -to me last night which we have marked as No. 1? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is. - -Mr. JENNER. May I inquire, Mr. Chairman, if you would prefer that I -read the translation in evidence or may we have it---- - -Mr. McCLOY. It is a short note? - -Mr. JENNER. It is a short note. Others are a little longer, however, -and if I have your permission, to save you time, I would read that into -the record during the noon recess or something of that character. - -Mr. McCLOY. Very well. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that acceptable. - -Now, did you thereafter--you wrote Mrs. Oswald at or about that time in -response to that note of yours, did you not? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. Let's see--I don't recall whether I did or not or -whether I arrived on the Tuesday that she had suggested. - -Mr. JENNER. I have a little difficulty in handling these, Mr. Chairman, -because they are in Russian, and I don't immediately have a vision of -it. - -(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. JENNER. I am handing you a document which I have numbered as No. 2. - -Would you locate that for me on your summary? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have it. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that the second page? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That note also in Russian but in whose handwriting? - -Mrs. PAINE. In my handwriting. - -Mr. JENNER. And that is a draft, I take it, of a letter or note that -you transmitted to Mrs. Oswald. - -Would you identify in your sheaf of notes the point at which you made a -translation of that note? - -Mrs. PAINE. When did I make a translation of it? I didn't understand -your question. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you point out in your notes the translation of the -document? Is that the center of the page on page 2? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is the document which I will have marked as Commission -Exhibit No. 405 in your handwriting? - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 405 for -identification.) - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it in the same condition now as it was when you -completed it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; being, of course, a rough draft of what I sent and not -what I sent. - -Mr. JENNER. You do not have the original of that because you sent it to -Marina Oswald, is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. But it does represent your present best recollection of the -note as you transmitted it to her? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. This note is without a date. Shall I give my -recollection of when I think it was written? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; please. - -Mrs. PAINE. I think it was written in March and referred to--it closes, -"Until the 20th." I believe that referred to Wednesday, March 20, which -is what appears here with the name Marina. - -Mr. JENNER. Which is what you testified to yesterday, and when you say -"appears here" you meant Exhibit 401? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence the original document which has now -been identified as Commission Exhibit No. 405. - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 405 -for identification, was received in evidence.) - -Mr. JENNER. I will read the translation in the record during the noon -recess. You shortly transmitted another letter of your own to Mrs. -Oswald, did you not? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And I have here a document which I have marked Commission -Exhibit No. 406. Is this a draft of the letter in your handwriting? - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 406 for -identification.) - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. And did you shortly after the completion of that draft -retranscribe it and transmit the letter to Marina Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you made a translation of that letter? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. - -Mr. JENNER. Is the draft of that document in the same condition now as -it was when you completed it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Where is that document transcribed on your notes? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is at the top of page 2. - -Mr. JENNER. That is what we call No. 3, is it not? - -Mrs. PAINE. And dated March 26. - -Mr. JENNER. This, Mr. Chairman, is her note to which she testified -yesterday was an invitation to the Oswalds to dinner at her home on -April 2. - -Mrs. PAINE. It appears--the following invitation is a full explanation -of it. I believe I had made the explanation in person. This letter was -to say that Michael would come and pick them up. - -Mr. JENNER. This was confirmation of your original invitation? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; this was that Michael could pick them up. - -Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence a document marked Commission Exhibit -No. 406. - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 406 -for identification, was received in evidence.) - -Mr. JENNER. Did you receive from Marina herself a note with respect to -your invitation to have her and her husband join you? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have a note which I take to be a reply to that -invitation, saying that that date, Tuesday, would be fine. - -Mr. JENNER. And I hand you Commission Document No. 407. - -Is that the note you received from Marina Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 407 for -identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. Have you made--is it in the same condition now as it was -when you received it? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have no envelope anymore. I don't know what happened to -it. - -Mr. JENNER. Is the note itself in the same condition as it was at the -time you received it? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. I have written on it in my hand to help me understand -the meaning of it, some pen notations, translation of the Russian words. - -Mr. JENNER. I am interested in that, Mrs. Paine. - -Did you also--are there some additions in your handwriting on the first -page of the note? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, marked one, two, three, four and clearly taken from a -dictionary. - -Mr. JENNER. Why did you do that? - -Mrs. PAINE. To explain to myself the meaning of these particular words. -I had to look them up. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it a fair statement, Mrs. Paine, that your command -of the Russian language was not facile enough for you to read the -total letter freehand, as soon as you received it, but you wrote -on the letter definitions of words and of phrases to assist you in -interpreting it? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is a fair statement. - -Mr. JENNER. Were all the notations you have now identified placed by -you on that letter shortly after you received it, or in the course of -your effort to interpret it? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, save for those additions of yours, is the document in -the same condition now as it was when you received it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And is it otherwise in the same condition as it was when -you placed those notes on it? - -In other words, there have been no notes of your own placed on the -document subsequent to, at, or about the time you received it when you -were attempting to interpret it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, you first said, or when I was translating it. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. I translated it immediately for myself at the time, and -then when I made a written translation I made a more careful one so -that some of these notes were done a week ago. - -Mr. JENNER. That is what I was getting at. - -Would you please, for the Commission identify the particular notes that -you placed on there at the time you were seeking to interpret it when -you first received it, and the notes you placed on there about a week -ago, and indicate the pages. - -Mrs. PAINE. I can easily answer that. - -There is only one that was placed more recently. That is an underline -on the inside. - -Mr. JENNER. Right-hand inside page? - -Mrs. PAINE. Right-hand side. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it merely an underlining? - -Mrs. PAINE. Underline and a question mark. - -Mr. JENNER. And would you interpret that for us, please? - -Mrs. PAINE. I couldn't read her handwriting, but later realized the -word to be "if." - -Mr. JENNER. When you were seeking to interpret it a week ago to -translate it, you placed a question mark over that word because you -couldn't quite figure it out? - -Mrs. PAINE. And then later realized what it was. - -Mr. JENNER. As being the word "if"? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Other than that, Mrs. Paine, is the document in the -condition it was when you received it and when you initially placed -notations on it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize that handwriting? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, that is Marina Oswald's handwriting. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you made a translation for the Commission of that -letter? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. - -Mr. JENNER. And that appears in your notes at page what? - -Mrs. PAINE. The first page at the bottom. - -Mr. JENNER. Which I have marked No. 4, I believe, is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. Beginning "For Ruth and Michael Paine." - -Mr. JENNER. Does your interpretation or translation of the letter -represent your impressions of the letter when you read it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And that is true, is it, of the other translations which we -will introduce through you today? Is that true of all your translations? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am not sure of what you are inquiring. - -Mr. JENNER. What I am inquiring about, others--as you related to me -last night--other persons with the command of the Russian language. - -Mrs. PAINE. I had no help with the translations. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Other persons with their command of the Russian language might read -one of Marina's letters and have at least, as to some words, an -interpretation different from yours. What I am saying---- - -Mrs. PAINE. In a minor regard, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. It may be? - -Mrs. PAINE. But I believe the meaning would have been the same. - -Mr. JENNER. But it is important to get your impressions, Mrs. Paine, of -Marina's letters to you, despite what interpretations some other people -might give to the same letter, and what I am seeking to emphasize is -whether your translations are your impressions of those letters? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; but they are good translations. - -Mr. JENNER. I don't mean to question that. We seek the impact of these -notes upon you. - -Mrs. PAINE. I see. This is exactly what I understood them to mean, of -course. - -Mr. JENNER. That is fine. - -Now, you received in May or on or about May, or shortly after May 25, -1963, another note from Marina Oswald, did you not? - -Mrs. PAINE. This was postmarked May 25. - -Mr. JENNER. After you had taken her to New Orleans? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. This was the first letter I received from -her from New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have kindly produced the original of that letter -for the Commission, have you not? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. I am sorry, I have to have your answer aloud or I can't get -it on the record. - -The document you have produced is marked Commission Exhibit 408. - -Do you recognize the handwriting of that note and of that envelope? - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 408 for -identification.) - -Mrs. PAINE. This is the handwriting of Marina Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. Both documents? - -Mrs. PAINE. On both. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you receive--that is a letter, is it not? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is a letter. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you receive it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it on or about, did you receive it on or about the date -it is postmarked? - -Mrs. PAINE. Shortly after, I would guess. - -Mr. JENNER. I can see some handwriting written horizontally on the back -of the envelope, is that handwriting yours or Marina's? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is mine. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you place that handwriting on the reverse side? - -Mrs. PAINE. When I first read the letter and sought to understand it. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -And those notations are in Russian or in English? - -Mrs. PAINE. A word is given in Russian followed by a translation in -English. - -Mr. JENNER. As in the case of one of the earlier exhibits, did you -place those notations on the reverse side of the envelope at the time -you received the letter in the course of your attempting to interpret -the letter? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. And those notations were in the course of your doing that. -Except for the notations on the reverse side of the envelope, is the -letter and is the envelope, each in the same condition now as when you -received it? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I have made a few underlinings. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you identify any additions you placed on the original -document, indicating the page, front or reverse side? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have marked "bind"---- - -Mr. JENNER. Is that b-i-n-d? - -Mrs. PAINE. Over one word. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you written the word "bind"? Is that what you mean? - -Mrs. PAINE. B-i-n-d. - -Mr. JENNER. And that is an interpretation, I take it of a word written -in Russian underneath it. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And that word then to you in English was "bind", b-i-n-d. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Anything else? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have written the word "thaw" and crossed it out; that was -wrong. - -Mr. JENNER. Meaning what, Mrs. Paine? - -Mrs. PAINE. I had the wrong translation for that word. I realized it -later. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the word rather than---- - -Mrs. PAINE. The meaning was "insists"; the rest of the markings by me -are underlinings. - -Mr. JENNER. I will cover those by asking you this. Were there any -underlinings on the letter placed there by Marina Oswald at the time -you received the letter? - -Mrs. PAINE. Only one, under this word here. - -Mr. JENNER. That is on the reverse side of the second page of the -letter? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is on the last page. The second page; yes. - -Mr. JENNER. It is the reverse side of the second sheet of paper? - -Mrs. PAINE. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. And it looks to help from her as though it is an arrow, is -that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. There is an underline and then from the underlined word is -an arrow. - -Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits Nos. 407 and 408 -the documents now so marked and identified by the witness. - -Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted. - -(The documents referred to, heretofore marked for identification as -Commission Exhibits Nos. 407 and 408, were received in evidence.) - -Mr. JENNER. Would you retain that for a moment, please? - -Mr. DULLES. May I ask, is the envelope 408A attached? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; and in the ease of the earlier exhibit the envelope---- - -Mrs. PAINE. It is only the second envelope we have had. - -Mr. JENNER. The envelope accompanying Exhibit 404 was marked 404A, and -the envelope now accompanying 408 is marked 408A. - -Mr. McCLOY. Is it so marked now? - -Mr. DULLES. Do you wish me to mark it? - -(The enevelope was marked Commission Exhibit 408A for identification -and received in evidence.) - -Mr. JENNER. Have you supplied the Commission, Mrs. Paine, with your -translation of that letter? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I have. - -Mr. JENNER. And your interpretation and the effect or the impression -that you had of that letter when you received it and as you read it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, turning to the first page, I would like to direct -attention---- - -Mr. DULLES. Do you wish this back? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I will look at the translation. - -Mr. JENNER. She has supplied me with an interpretation. In the first -paragraph it reads and I quote, and you follow me, please. I will read -the whole paragraph: - -"Here it is already a week since I received your letter. I can't -produce any excuses as there are no valid reasons. I am ashamed to -confess that I am a person of moods and my mood currently is such that -I don't feel much like anything. As soon as you left all love stopped -and I am very hurt that Lee's attitude toward me is such that I feel -each minute that I bind him. He insists that I leave America which I -don't want to do at all. I like America very much and I think that even -without Lee I would not be lost here. What do you think?" - -Had you had any discussion with Marina when you were in New Orleans -on the subject matters which I have just read to you from the first -paragraph of her letter, Commission Exhibit No. 408? - -Mrs. PAINE. There was no such discussion in New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. What impact did this have on you, Mrs. Paine, when you -received this letter and read that first paragraph? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was a repetition, or similar to something she had told -me late in March, which I have already put on the record yesterday, -saying basically that he wanted her to go back, wanted to send her back -to the Soviet Union. - -Mr. JENNER. And to send her back alone, is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. That was the impression I carried. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there ever any occassion, during all your acquaintance -with the Oswalds, when there was any suggestion or implication that if -she returned to Russia, at his request, that he would accompany her? - -Mrs. PAINE. There was no such suggestion. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it always that she was to go to Russia alone? - -Mrs. PAINE. As she described it, it carried from her the feeling that -she was being sent away. - -Mr. JENNER. What about the little child, June? - -Mrs. PAINE. June with her. - -Mr. JENNER. Was to accompany her to Russia. Now, the second paragraph, -if I may: - -"This is the basic question which doesn't leave me day or night. And -again Lee has said to me that he doesn't love me. So you see we came -to mistaken conclusions. It is hard for you and me to live without a -return of our love interest gone. How would it all end?" - -Had there been discussions between you and Marina Oswald on the subject -of whether or not her husband had love for her, and in that area? - -Mrs. PAINE. What I particularly recall is what I mentioned yesterday, -when he telephoned her and said he had found a job and wanted her to -come---- - -Mr. JENNER. This was just before going to New Orleans? - -Mrs. PAINE. Just before going to New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. In the spring? - -Mrs. PAINE. Right. She said "Papa loves us," as I have testified. She -had wondered to me during the 2 weeks previous whether he did, whether -she loved him. But was clearly elated by his call and gradually came -to her own conclusions. Really, I had no ground upon which to make a -conclusion. - -Mr. DULLES. She was speaking in Russian then to you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, were you impressed that this paragraph, however, was -not consistent with her immediate response at the time that telephone -call had been made to her? - -Mrs. PAINE. It showed me there was not as much change as she had hoped. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with her on this subject when -you were in New Orleans, and when you took her or when you were taking -her from Irving, Tex., to New Orleans? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever. When you were in New Orleans, Mrs. Paine, -did you tour any night clubs? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you or Marina ever evidence any interest in touring -Bourbon Street, for example? - -Mrs. PAINE. You are talking about the spring visit? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; I am. - -Mrs. PAINE. We went to the French Quarter during the day. - -Mr. JENNER. Please identify whom you include when you say "we." - -Mrs. PAINE. Lee, Marina, I, and three children. - -Mr. JENNER. Did all of you, including Lee, go to the French Quarter? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; we did. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you tour the Bourbon Street areas, Royal Street, and -the other areas? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; we did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Will you tell us without any length--you did not. This was -a tourist visit of the French Quarter, is that right? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In the day? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. With the children? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was anything said during the course of that tourist visit -about visiting Bourbon Street at night rather than in the daytime? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that there was anything said. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion about Lee Oswald visiting or -frequenting night clubs? - -Mrs. PAINE. None. - -Mr. JENNER. Either in Dallas, or in New Orleans or in Irving, Tex.? - -Mrs. PAINE. None; at any time. - -Mr. JENNER. Did any one of you tour Bourbon Street at night during that -spring visit? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Any discussion of the subject? - -Mrs. PAINE. Not to my recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there a subsequent occasion when you did visit Bourbon -Street at night? - -Mrs. PAINE. In September, when I visited again in New Orleans. Shall I -tell that? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; please, because there is a measure of contrast to that -I would like to bring out. - -Mrs. PAINE. Marina and I and our three small children went down in the -early evening and walked along the street. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us how that came about, whether Lee Oswald -accompanied you? - -Mrs. PAINE. He did not accompany us. He was asked if he wanted to go, -and he said he did not. Marina was interested in my seeing Bourbon -Street at night simply as a tourist attraction. - -Mr. JENNER. And you two girls took your children? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she take June? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You two girls walked down Bourbon Street? - -Mrs. PAINE. And one of us very pregnant. - -Mr. JENNER. And observed everything from the outside. You didn't go -inside any night clubs? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. In fact, when I realized we weren't permitted, we went -on. - -Mr. JENNER. You had small children? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion with Mr. Oswald at that time or -with Marina which led you to form a judgment as to whether he was a man -who might, or would, or had frequented night clubs? - -Mrs. PAINE. I judged he was not such a person. - -Mr. JENNER. In all your experiences with the Oswalds from February, -sometime in February 1963, even to the present date, had any mention -been made of Lee Oswald frequenting night clubs? - -Mrs. PAINE. None. - -Mr. JENNER. Or of Marina at any time? - -Mrs. PAINE. No mention of her. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you get the impression when you made this trip that -Marina had previously made the trip herself, that she seemed to know -the surroundings? - -Mrs. PAINE. This occurs in the next paragraph of the letter she wrote -in May, so I knew she had been herself. - -Mr. DULLES. She had been there before? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. From the letter I judge with Lee accompanying her. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, if you will pardon me. Mr. Reporter, will you -read the question? - -(Question read.) - -Mr. JENNER. Would you answer just that question? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. She did answer it. - -Mr. JENNER. I didn't think she did. - -Mr. DULLES. I think she said "yes." - -Mr. JENNER. Now the letter of May 25th to you does make reference to -visits to the French Quarter, is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Gentlemen of the Commission, that portion of the letter -reads as follows: - -"Now a bit about the impressions I have received this week. Last -Saturday we went to Aunt Lillian's"--Aunt Lillian, Mrs. Paine, is Lee -Oswald's aunt? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Murret? - -Mrs. PAINE. Mrs. Murret. - -Mr. JENNER. "And leaving June with her we are at the lake. Lee wanted -to catch crabs but caught nothing. I have a very high opinion of his -relatives." - -By the way, what was your opinion of his relatives? - -Mrs. PAINE. I met them only once. I thought them to be very nice. - -Mr. JENNER. "Straightforward and kind people. To me they are very -attentive. I like them. We have been to the French Quarter in the -evening. It is a shame you didn't manage to get there in the evening. -For me it was especially interesting as it was the first time in my -life I had seen such. There were many night clubs there. Through the -open doors were visible barrel covered dancing girls (so as not to say -entirely unclothed). Most of them had really very pretty, rare figures -and if one doesn't think about too many things then one can like them -very much. There were a great many tourists there. For the most part -very rich. We have been to the near park again." - -That is all of that paragraph dealing with the nightclubs. Now, did you -ever know a man or person by the name of Jack Rubinstein or Jack Ruby? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Prior to November 24, 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear of any such individual? - -Mrs. PAINE. No, I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you frequented a nightclub in Irving or in Dallas prior -to November 24, 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. Not at any time. In either town. - -Mr. JENNER. You and your husband Michael were not in the habit of -visiting, frequenting nightclubs? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. It is a fact, is it not, Mrs. Paine that neither you nor -Mr. Paine attended nightclubs at all? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Is this true prior to your moving to Irving? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there anything that occurred during all these months of -your acquaintance with the Oswalds that did or might have led you to -any opinion as to Lee's frequenting of nightclubs or his acquaintance -with nightclubs or his being intimate with nightclub people? - -Mrs. PAINE. During the entire time, is that your question? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. Let us end the day for you for this purpose at -November 22, 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. He was, I would say, actively disinterested in going down -to Bourbon Street in the last weekend in September. - -Mr. JENNER. But even prior to that time? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was the 21st. - -Mr. JENNER. Had anything occurred by way of a remark at all that made -an impression on you in the area of his being acquainted possibly with -any nightclub people, any entertainers? - -Mrs. PAINE. There had been no hint of any sort that he was acquainted -with nightclub people? - -Mr. McCLOY. Whether in Dallas, New Orleans or Irving? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. Of course, I had not talked to him a great -deal up to the New Orleans trip. Then after that time there was also no -hint or mention of any nightclub people. After that time in New Orleans -he did refuse table wine at my home, so I got the impression of him as -a person who didn't like to drink. - -Mr. JENNER. During all your acquaintance with Lee Harvey Oswald, did -you ever see him take a drink of spirits, intoxicating spirits? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is possible he had beer at the initial party on the 22d -of February, that is as far as I can remember. - -Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have of him as a man of temperance? - -Mrs. PAINE. He teased Marina about liking wine as if it displeased him -mildly. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine. You are talking in terms of -conclusions which is all right with me if you will give me the -specifics also. Could you give us an example or an occasion of what you -have in mind? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, at the same occasion when he refused the wine, she -had some. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. Did he say something that led you to say he was -teasing her? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you describe what that was? - -Mrs. PAINE. Indicating a mild disapproval. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you please relate to the Commission your impression -of Marina Oswald as a temperate person? - -Mrs. PAINE. She did not like liquors. - -Mr. JENNER. What we would call hard liquor? - -Mrs. PAINE. Strong spirits. - -Mr. JENNER. Strong spirits. - -Mrs. PAINE. But she did drink beer at my home, and did occasionally -have wine. - -Mr. JENNER. She occasionally had a bit of wine and she occasionally had -some beer? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that the extent of, as far as your personal knowledge is -concerned, her indulgence in intoxicating spirits? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Does that likewise describe your indulgence or do you---- - -Mrs. PAINE. I would also drink a cocktail on occasion. - -Mr. JENNER. But very limited and just an occasional drink? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that likewise true of your husband, Michael? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Representative FORD. Did Marina ever drink to excess? - -Mrs. PAINE. Certainly not that I ever heard about or saw. - -Mr. JENNER. Not that you ever heard about or that you saw? - -Mrs. PAINE. Or saw. - -Mr. JENNER. From your testimony that is certainly true with Lee Harvey -Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is certainly true of him also. - -Mr. JENNER. As far as you are concerned? - -Mrs. PAINE. As far as I am concerned. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I think you testified yesterday that Marina would -assist you in your becoming more proficient in the Russian language by -returning letters that you had written her, upon which she would place -her comments of instruction or criticism or suggestion? - -Mrs. PAINE. Before she left for New Orleans in May, she offered to -correct and send back any letters I wrote to her. In the correspondence -which included some four letters with her altogether, there was only -one of mine that was actually corrected and sent back and you have that. - -Mr. JENNER. I have marked a three-page document as Commission Exhibit -409, and the envelope as Commission Exhibit 409A, the envelope being -postmarked at New Orleans on June 6, 1963, and being addressed to Mrs. -Ruth Paine. - -Mrs. PAINE. Do you want to make a separate designation for my return -letter? You are looking at the letter which accompanied her letter. - -Mr. JENNER. That document I will mark as Commission Exhibit----may I -have permission, Mr. Chairman, to mark this document in my own hand -because the sticker, I am afraid, will obliterate some of the letter. - -Mr. McCLOY. You may. - -Mr. JENNER. I will mark this as 409B. - -Now, Mrs. Paine, would you be good enough to identify 409, 409A, and -409B, the sequence in which they passed back and forth between you and -Mrs. Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. It includes, No. 409 is my letter to her dated the 1st of -June, which she---- - -Mr. JENNER. 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that document, or do you recognize the handwriting on -that document? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is my hand. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you turn to the reverse side of the second page, -third page. I see there is something on that in red crayon. - -Mrs. PAINE. All the red marks and the little bit in ballpoint pen are -made by her. - -Mr. JENNER. That is what I was seeking to bring out. - -Mrs. PAINE. At the end it includes a note of comments. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, the portion of the letter in blue ink in -longhand is in whose handwriting? - -Mrs. PAINE. In my handwriting. - -Mr. JENNER. And the portion of the letter in red crayon on the reverse -side of the third page is in whose handwriting? - -Mrs. PAINE. Is in her handwriting. - -Mr. JENNER. On the first page is there any of her handwriting? - -Mrs. PAINE. On the first page in blue ink, ballpoint pen there is some -handwriting which is hers at the top. - -Mr. JENNER. Those are notations in between the lines or in the margin? - -Mrs. PAINE. Above my writing. Yes; sir. - -Mr. JENNER. They are comments of hers on your letter? - -Mrs. PAINE. And my spelling. - -Mr. JENNER. Of your spelling? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do any of those markings appear other than on the face of -the first sheet? - -Mrs. PAINE. In blue ink you are asking? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, I am. - -Mrs. PAINE. No. The rest is all in red. - -Mr. JENNER. That then was a letter that you had sent to her? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it returned to you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did some document which you now have before you accompany -the letter on its return? - -Mrs. PAINE. Her letter dated June 5th. - -Mr. JENNER. Which has been marked Commission Exhibit 409B? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you do recognize that handwriting as having been hers? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Of the two documents you have now identified, 409 and 409B, -were they enclosed in an envelope? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they were. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that envelope before you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. It is marked Commission Exhibit 409A? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Are all those conditions of documents in the condition -which they were in when you received them? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have again added in my hand on her letter. - -Mr. JENNER. That is 409B? - -Mrs. PAINE. Translations of certain of the words. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you please, for the purpose of the record, identify -what your handwriting is, on the letter 409B. - -Mrs. PAINE. It is above her words. Most of it is in English. - -Mr. JENNER. That is in your hand? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Other than that, are the documents in the condition they -were when you received them? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. There is one interesting thing to me, Mrs. Paine, to which -I would like to draw the attention of the Commission. And I direct -your attention in this respect to Exhibits 404, 404A, 408, 408A, 409, -and 409A. Each has an envelope addressed to you, and each is addressed -written in English. - -Is the handwriting on each of those envelopes Marina Oswald's? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is. - -Mr. JENNER. She was then able to write some English, is that so? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you please---- - -Mrs. PAINE. She learned her own address. - -Mr. JENNER. Did her command of the use of the English language, at -least from the writing standpoint, extend beyond those examples? - -Mrs. PAINE. Not to my knowledge. I knew that she looked at signs and -had learned the sound value of the English letters. That she looked at -the Thursday supplement to the newspaper for the ads on vegetables and -things with pictures on a can or something that showed the English of -what it was, to try to determine what this word was and pronounce it. - -Mr. JENNER. So she did acquire some command of English with respect to -reading newspapers? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was not my impression that she could read a newspaper. -She could pick out the sound values. It was not until October that -I read with her a portion from Time magazine regarding Madam Nhu, -whenever that was news, she asked me to read this to her and translate -it. I read it. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you read it in English first? - -Mrs. PAINE. I read it in English, giving translation of some of the -words. - -Mr. JENNER. As you went along? - -Mrs. PAINE. As I went along. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. PAINE. But many of the words, English words, were words she -understood, because they were either similar to the Russian or because -she had learned them. - -I was surprised at how much she understood when I pronounced it and -read it to her. - -Representative FORD. In English? - -Mrs. PAINE. In English. Because she was very hesitant to speak English -with me, fearful that her pronunciation would not be correct. She would -ask me several times, "How do I pronounce this," although she didn't -think she was doing very well with the pronunciation, although she did -well. - -Mr. JENNER. She was sensitive in this respect, Mrs. Paine, she was -hesitant to use the English language in the presence, say, of Americans -or even the Russian emigre groups? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think most people are sensitive about using a language -when the person they are with can understand them in the language they -use better. She also talked with my immediate neighbor for a short -time, when only she and the neighbor were present. I went to see about -a child. - -Mr. JENNER. Could your neighbor understand Russian? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. But there was a measure of communication? - -Mrs. PAINE. There was some communication, not a great deal. My neighbor -told me after she saw Marina on television in January, whatever it was, -"that girl has learned a great deal of English." She was amazed at the -change. - -Representative FORD. The improvement from October to January? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. How would you appraise her general intelligence, her level -of intelligence for a girl of that age in the early twenties? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think she certainly had above average intelligence. - -Representative FORD. What prompted her, if you know, to ask about Madam -Nhu? - -Mrs. PAINE. She was interested in the family. She was worried about -what Madam Nhu would do. Madam Nhu and the children still in her -country. She wanted to know were these children going to come out -either in Paris or the United States. She was concerned, and her -concern for world affairs seemed to go this way, of what is this mother -and children going to do. - -Mr. JENNER. Was she concerned about the conflict between the North -Vietnamese and the South Vietnamese? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; this didn't interest her, it didn't appear to. - -Mr. JENNER. It was the human side rather than the political side? - -Mrs. PAINE. Strictly that. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you; that is what I wanted to bring out. I offer in -evidence, Mr. Chairman, as Exhibits with those numbers, the documents -marked Commission Exhibits 409, 409-A, and 409-B. - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. - -(The documents referred to previously, marked Commission Exhibits Nos. -409, 409-A, and 409-B, were received in evidence.) - -(At this point, Representative Boggs entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, turning to this series of correspondence -which has now been admitted in evidence, have you made an -interpretation for the Commission of Exhibit 409-B? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. - -Mr. JENNER. Where does that appear on your summary you furnished to me -last evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. That begins in the middle of page 6, marked second letter -from New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Your interpretation of the letter dealing with -the night club visit of the Oswalds, you have interpreted that for the -Commission, and that appears on page what of your summary? - -Mrs. PAINE. That appears on page 3 marked first letter from New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Were you concerned about Mrs. Oswald, about -Marina's condition and her receiving proper medical attention? - -Mrs. PAINE. I was very concerned about it. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you write her at any time about it? - -Mrs. PAINE. I would like to refer you to my letter of June 1st which -was returned in the document you just admitted in evidence. - -Mr. JENNER. You did write her about it? - -Mrs. PAINE. I wrote particularly in that letter to Lee. - -Mr. JENNER. You wrote both Lee and Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. In this letter I addressed each, and a particular portion -of that letter is in English. - -Mr. JENNER. And that is Commission Exhibit No. 409? - -Mrs. PAINE. That was to Lee, that particular portion. - -Mr. JENNER. You incorporated, did you not, in that letter, a direct -communication to Lee Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. I say in Russian a few words to Lee now about hospital and -money. - -Mr. JENNER. But incorporated in your note in that letter to Lee Oswald -you used the English rather than the Russian language, did you not? - -Mrs. PAINE. I wanted to speak of things I couldn't say in Russian. I -didn't have the vocabulary to do it with any ease in Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mrs. PAINE. And further I particularly wanted to tell him I thought it -important she get to a doctor and have prenatal care and felt he would -be the one who actually got her there. It was his concern that would -produce a visit to the doctor. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. That explains that portion of the letter which is -Commission Exhibit No. 409. - -Mrs. PAINE. 409. - -Mr. JENNER. I won't go into the details, Mr. Chairman, because these -are recommendations of Mrs. Paine for medical care of Marina Oswald. - -Mr. McCLOY. Do I understand you are going to read all of these into the -record at the noon hour? - -Mr. JENNER. At the noon hour I will read all of these into the record -rather than do it now. Now you, last night, Mrs Paine, suggested to me -you would like to make an explanation of this series of letters, and I -direct your attention to page 7 of your notes. - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, the commentary on page 7 by me is---- - -Mr. JENNER. Refreshing your recollection from having read it, you would -like to make a statement to the Commission and you may proceed to do so. - -Mrs. PAINE. It doesn't refresh me enough. I could say this. That when -I received 409-B, her letter, I read it through. I glanced at 409, her -corrected--my letter which she had corrected, and at the note at the -back which began, "You write well" and assumed this to be commentary on -my letter; it was not until I sat down nearly a month later to write -a proper reply to her, I read this through more carefully and found -in the middle of the paragraph discussing my writing a comment by her -saying, "Very likely I will have to go back to Russia after all." - -Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record there appears the red crayon -to which I earlier drew your attention on the back of page 3. - -Would you read that entire notation of hers so that the Commission may -now know that to which you are now directing your attention? - -Mrs. PAINE. In the back of my letter she writes in red pencil, "You -write well, when will I write that way in English. I think never. Very -likely I will have to go back to Russia after all. A pity." - -Mr. DULLES. What was the last? - -Mrs. PAINE. "A pity." - -Mr. JENNER. I take it when you first read that notation on the back of -the third page of the letter you had not noticed the sentence, "Very -likely I will have to go to Russia after all. A pity." - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you proceed with your comment? - -Mrs. PAINE. This was early July when I read this letter more carefully -and I was shocked that I hadn't noticed this. That my poor Russian made -a scanning of the letter not adequate to picking that up, and I wrote -her immediately apologizing for my bad understanding, and I don't have -that letter, but I have three which followed it, and---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Do you have a draft, have you produced for the -Commission your immediate preceding draft of that letter? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have no rough draft of my first letter explaining my -shock and my worry at this statement of hers. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mrs. PAINE. But I have rough drafts of three letters I wrote -subsequently. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you ever seen at any time a copy or the original of -the letter that you wrote, a draft of which you do not have? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I haven't. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you please relate to the Commission your present -recollection of the substance and content of that letter? - -Mrs. PAINE. Much what I have said. That I apologized that my poor -Russian didn't see this immediately and I inquired after her what she -was doing, and asked to hear from her. - -Mr. JENNER. You say, that sentence when you finally did read it rather -shocked you. Would you rather--would you elaborate on that statement to -the Commission? Why did that shock you? - -Mrs. PAINE. It seemed more final than anything else that had preceded. -She had told me in March that he had asked her to go back, that she had -written to the embassy but she didn't reply to the embassy when the -embassy inquired why. It looked as though she was able to just say no -by not doing anything about it. But this, on the other hand, looked as -if she was resigned to the necessity to go back. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you aware at this time, Mrs. Paine, that Lee had -applied to the State Department for a passport and had obtained one? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I was not aware of that. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you first become aware of that, if you ever did? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was considerably after the assassination, and I read it -in a paper. I still don't remember what time or day it was. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, did you write Marina on or about the 11th of July? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have a rough draft of that date. - -Mr. JENNER. I hand you a document of two pages which has been -identified as Commission Exhibit No. 410. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 410 for -identification.) - -Would you please tell us what that document is? - -Mrs. PAINE. This is the rough draft, to which I just referred, written -to Marina. - -Mr. JENNER. And you thereupon prepared the final draft and sent it? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. This represents, does it not, your best recollection of the -contents of the letter, the letter in its final form as you transmitted -it to Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think this is probably a very accurate representation of -the letter in its final form. It was the first time I put on paper an -invitation to her to come and stay with me for anything more than a few -weeks around the birth of the baby. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you supplied the Commission with a translation of your -letter? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. - -Mr. JENNER. And that appears at the bottom of page 7 of your notes -which you have supplied to me? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. I direct your attention, if I may, and the attention of -the Commission as interpreted by Mrs. Paine, the first sentence reads, -"Dear Marina, if Lee doesn't wish to live with you any more and prefers -that you go to the Soviet Union, think about the possibility of living -with me." - -You just said--is that the portion of your letter which you say this -is the first invitation you made to Marina to come to live with you -generally? - -Mrs. PAINE. This was the first written invitation. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mrs. PAINE. I had made an informal invitation face to face when she was -staying the first week in May, but felt as I made it that she didn't -take this seriously. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you go on in your letter and you make reference, for -example, to--let's take the second paragraph of your letter appearing -at the top of page 8 of your notes, "You know I have long received -from my parents, I live dependent a long time. I would be happy -to be an aunt to you and I can. We have sufficient money. Michael -will be glad. This I know. He just gave me $500 for the vacation or -something necessary. With this money it is possible to pay the doctor -and hospital in October when the baby is born, believe God. All will -be well for you and the children. I confess that I think that the -opportunity for me to know you came from God. Perhaps it is not so but -I think and believe so." - -Had you discussed this matter with your husband? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I had. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were still living separate and apart at that time? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But I felt so long as I was not yet earning, he would -be the one, in fact, who was supporting all of us. - -Mr. JENNER. I think the Commission might be interested in that. You -were not taking this action, either in the earlier stage in the early -spring or in the summer of inviting Marina to live with you without -discussing that with your husband even though you and your husband at -that time were separated? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you do anything, Mrs. Paine, in this connection with -respect to keeping Lee Oswald informed of your invitations and your -communications in this area with Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. I wrote into the letter that I hoped--well you might just -read the last paragraph. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you mind reading it? - -Mrs. PAINE. I will read it, the last paragraph in the letter, and I -might say that the entire letter I wrote with the possibility in mind -that he should see this. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you desire that he do see it? - -Mrs. PAINE. I wanted him to--her to feel free to show it to him. I -didn't want her to come to my house if this offended or injured him, if -this was in some way---- - -(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. JENNER. Divisive? - -Mrs. PAINE. If he did in fact want to keep his family together, I -certainly wanted him to, but if the bulk of his feelings lay on the -side of wanting to be away, separated from Marina, then I thought it -was legitimate for him to have that alternative, although it was not -legitimate for him to simply send her back if she didn't want to go. - -Mr. JENNER. Send her back where? - -Mrs. PAINE. To the Soviet Union, if she didn't want to go. So in this -light I will read the last paragraph of Commission Exhibit 410: - -"I don't want to hurt Lee with this invitation to you. Only I think -that it would be better that you and he do not live together if you -do not receive happiness. I understand how Michael feels. He doesn't -love me and wants a chance to look for another life and another wife. -He must do this, it seems, and so it is better for us not to live -together. I don't know how Lee feels. I would like to know. Surely -things are hard for him now, too. I hope that he would be glad to see -you with me where he can know that you and the children will receive -everything that is necessary and he would not need to worry about it. -Thus he could start life again." - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, having all this in mind and what you have -testified to up to now, would you please tell the gentlemen of the -Commission the factors and motivations you had in inviting Marina to -come live with you; first to have her baby, next on a more extended -scale, all of the factors that motivated you in your offer, in your own -words? - -Mrs. PAINE. The first invitation, just to come for a few weeks at the -time of the birth is a simpler question, I will answer that first. - -I felt that she would need someone simply to take care of her older -child for the time that she was in the hospital, and that things would -be easier for her if she didn't have to immediately take up the full -household chores upon returning from the hospital. This was a very -simple offer. - -Mr. JENNER. That was all that motivated you at that time? - -Mrs. PAINE. Now, in asking her to come and stay for a more extended -period, I had many feelings. I was living alone with my children, at -that time, had been since the previous fall, nearly a year, at the time -this letter is written. I had no idea that my husband might move back -to the house. I was tired of living alone and lonely, and here was a -woman who was alone and in a sense also, if Lee, in fact didn't want to -be with her, and further she was a person I liked. I had lived with her -2 weeks in late April and early May. I enjoyed her company. - -Further, being able to talk Russian with her added a wider dimension -to my rather small and boring life as a young mother. I didn't want -to go out and get a job because I wanted to be home with my children, -but on the other hand, I saw a way to, and that is part of what -studying Russian altogether is for me, a way to make my daily life -more interesting. I also felt when I first heard in March that Lee was -wanting to send Marina back, that is how it was presented to me, that -it just seemed a shame that our country couldn't be a more hospitable -thing for her if she wanted so much to stay, that I thought she should -have that opportunity. - -I was pleased that she liked America, and thought that she should have -a chance to stay here and raise her children here as she wished. - -I might say also if I had not been living alone I would not have -undertaken such an invitation. My house is small and it wouldn't have -gone with married life. - -Mr. JENNER. I wanted to afford you that opportunity. Now, you have -related all the factors that motivated you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 410 the -document which has been so identified. - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to, previously marked as Commission Exhibit No. -410 for identification, was received in evidence.) - -Mr. McCLOY. We have been going for an hour and a half. If you would -like to have a recess you may have it. - -Mrs. PAINE. I am all right. - -Mr. McCLOY. All right, we will go on then. - -Mr. JENNER. You mentioned in the course of your explanation earlier a -series of three letters. I hand you a draft of letter dated July 12, -1963, addressed to Dear Marina, consisting of two pages, which we will -mark as Commission Exhibit No. 411. And another one-page letter which -we will mark as Commission Exhibit No. 412. - -In whose handwriting is each of those exhibits? - -Mrs. PAINE. Each of these are in my handwriting. - -Mr. JENNER. And they are drafts, are they? - -Mrs. PAINE. They are. - -Mr. JENNER. And you would then, after making those drafts put them in -final form? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you transmit the final draft of letter to Marina Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. I mailed them to her address in New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you supplied me with your translation of both of those -drafts? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have. - -Mr. JENNER. Each draft is in your handwriting? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And the interpretations appearing at the bottom of page -8 and the bottom of page 9 are the material you supplied me and they -consist of your interpretations of those letters or translations, -rather? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. They are dated respectively July 12 and July -14. - -Mr. JENNER. I hand you a picture copy rather than a photostatic copy -of a two-page letter dated July 14, 1963, and a translation of that -letter which we will mark as Commission Exhibits Nos. 413 and 414, -respectively. - -(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 413 and -414 for identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to Exhibit 413, would you tell us -what that is? - -Mrs. PAINE. This appears to be a photograph of the letter I then wrote -from my final draft and sent to Marina, dated the 14th of July. - -Mr. JENNER. So that Exhibit No. 413 is the---- - -Mrs. PAINE. 413, the photograph. - -Mr. JENNER. 413 is to the best of your recollection an actual picture -of your final draft letter as transmitted to Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Now directing your attention to page 10 of the material -that you supplied me, and which you discussed with me last evening, -you wished to make a statement to the Commission with respect to this -letter, do you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Would you please proceed to do so? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think it would be easier if I read what is here. - -Mr. JENNER. Any way you want to handle it, Mrs. Paine. - -Mrs. PAINE. Marina stayed with me 2 weeks in the spring as you know, -and I realized then what a proud and capable person she is. She was -not accustomed to accept help from others, and I knew that her pride -and independence would be a stumbling block to her accepting help even -though she needed it. - -I respected her for this and somehow I wanted to ease such acceptance -for her, and to explain that the situation I proposed would be a -situation of mutual help. I hoped--now I should say that in Commission -Exhibit---- - -Mr. JENNER. They are to your right on the table. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; 411 and 412, I mentioned that if she were counted as a -dependent on Michael's income tax his yearly payment to the government -would be reduced by a certain amount, and that by that amount she--we -could very nearly live--her expenses could very nearly come under -this, so it would be more a case of breaking even than a case of her -accepting so much as she might think from us. But I think that in fact -this reference to the tax reduction did not encourage her, as I had -hoped. - -Mr. JENNER. It wasn't quite correct either, was it, Mrs. Paine? - -(Laughter.) - -Mrs. PAINE. Did I get a chance to read the second letter as written at -2 a.m. and I was hopeful only more than---- - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, I think the members of the Commission and also -you from our talk last night, are interested in your letters which you -have now identified suggesting financial arrangements to Mrs. Oswald, -since to one who might read them without knowing the background they -might seem crass. - -Mrs. PAINE. I felt crass in Russian, particularly. - -Mr. JENNER. I was not thinking in terms of your difficulty in -communicating with her, but you had no selfish or ulterior financial -motive, did you, in this connection? - -Mrs. PAINE. Did it appear that? - -Mr. JENNER. It might. - -Mrs. PAINE. Even with such bad arithmetic. - -Mr. JENNER. Your arithmetic was all right. Your interpretation of the -law was not as good as it might be. - -Mr. DULLES. Am I not correct, I understood you were trying to make her -feel she was not going to be a burden to you? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. DULLES. And were using certain subterfuges to accomplish that; that -is the impression I got from what you said. - -Mrs. PAINE. That is absolutely correct. That I hoped, and further I -would say in the letters to her I made reference that this money not -paid to the government would be therefore available for spending money -for her. I had put myself in her position and thought wouldn't it -be terrible to have to ask for a nickel for a package of Lifesavers -every time you wanted it, and thought I wouldn't want to be in such a -situation if she doesn't have her own, something she can count upon as -her own money, it would be unbearable to her. - -So I tried to cast about both for a way of making her feel that this -would not be a burden to us, and a way of getting her petty cash in the -pocket that she would not feel was a handout. So that it would be a -legitimate possibility for her to consider. - -I judge that my effort in this regard, besides the bad understanding -of the tax law and the poor arithmetic, didn't help because of her -following letter. - -Mr. JENNER. That is what I was coming to. Before we get to that, Mrs. -Paine, I direct your attention to Commission Exhibit No. 414. - -Mrs. PAINE. 414? - -Mr. JENNER. That is a translation of your letter, Commission Exhibit -No. 413. Have you read that translation? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there anything in the translation to which you might -desire to take exception or at least make a comment? - -(At this point Chief Justice Warren left the hearing room.) - -Mrs. PAINE. One minute. Yes, it accurately reflects some of my bad -Russian. - -Mr. JENNER. You take no exception to the translation? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think no. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, if you please, I offer in evidence, Mr. -Dulles, may I have those exhibits---- - -Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted. - -Mr. JENNER. As Commission Exhibits 411, 412, 413 and 414, the documents -that had been so marked? - -Mr. McCLOY. They will be admitted. - -(The documents referred, previously marked Commission Exhibits Nos. -411, 412, 413, and 414, were received in evidence.) - -Mr. JENNER. You did receive a response from Marina, did you not, Mrs. -Paine? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. And is the response the document now handed to you marked -Commission Exhibit No. 415? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. And you supplied the Commission with your translation of -that letter and that translation---- - -Mrs. PAINE. 415 is that what you said? - -Mr. JENNER. 415. It appears on pages 10, 11, and 12 of the material you -supplied me. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't have an envelope but you have a letter. - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't have an envelope. I don't know what happened to it. - -Mr. JENNER. Is the exhibit in Marina Oswald's handwriting? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there anything on the exhibit other than that in the -handwriting of Marina Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. There are a few underlinings on the page marked four. - -Mr. JENNER. Who placed them there? - -Mrs. PAINE. Which are my own. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Anything else? - -Mrs. PAINE. Except for the underlining "he does not know" at the very -bottom. - -Mr. JENNER. "He" refers to whom? - -Mrs. PAINE. Lee. - -Mr. JENNER. You were about to state to the Commission Marina Oswald's -reaction to your series of invitations. Is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you proceed then? - -Mrs. PAINE. As reflected in this letter. This was the third letter I -received from her after a space of over a month, and I had been very -concerned about her. I was much relieved to get it. She said she had -been to the doctor and her condition was normal. She responded to -this series of four letters of which we have three in rough draft, -saying--shall I read in some of the things said? - -Mr. JENNER. To the extent that you desire to do so. We will not read -the whole letter, it is quite long; that which is pertinent to what you -have in mind. - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, that for a considerable period Lee has been good to -her, she writes. He talks a lot about the coming baby. - -Mr. JENNER. Perhaps you might pick out--there are only about four -sentences. - -Mrs. PAINE. "He has become more attentive and we hardly quarrel". - -Mr. JENNER. This indicates a change somewhat in relationship and would -you please read that portion of the letter? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. Could we have the date of this letter once again? - -Mrs. PAINE. The date of the letter. We have no date on the letter. It -was written somewhere between July 18 and July 21, which is the date of -my reply. - -Mr. JENNER. That is how you identify it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Representative FORD. This is 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. Right. Again, "He has become much more attentive and we -hardly quarrel. True I have to give in a great deal. It could not be -otherwise. But if one wants peace then it is necessary to give in. We -went to the doctor, my condition is normal." - -And she thanks me for the invitation and thanks Michael also and says: - -"I would try to take advantage of it if things really become worse, if -Lee becomes coarse with me again and treats me badly." - -Mr. JENNER. I direct your attention to the paragraph following that -one, Mrs. Paine. - -Mrs. PAINE. Now another question: - -"If as is possible it becomes necessary for me to come to live with -you in order to say that I am a dependent of Michael's surely it would -be necessary to have an official divorce, isn't that so? But I think -Lee would not agree to a divorce, and to go simply from him to become -a burden to you that I don't wish. Surely Michael would need to have -a paper showing that I am living at his expense but no one would just -take his word for it, right?" - -And I realized much later that in the Soviet Union you don't do -anything without the proper papers, and just having a person under your -roof for anyone to see, having them in fact eating at your table is -not, would not be, sufficient proof--would not be sufficient there in -Russia. - -Representative BOGGS. It might not be here. - -Mrs. PAINE. It might not be here. Well, in any case I judged she felt, -reading my invitations this was of some importance to me whether -Michael counted her as a deduction, and so on, whereas in fact this -wasn't the point at all, but that I had hoped to somehow make, if -possible, for her to accept such help. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you finished your observations? - -Representative BOGGS. As a matter of fact, there are certain -limitations under our law as to how you can claim a dependent. - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I asked a few people who didn't know much about it -before I wrote it. - -Representative BOGGS. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. The tenor then of this letter was as I gather from your -testimony and as you have related to me last evening whether she would -come to live with you in the fall or generally was something which now -became subject to reconsideration? - -Mrs. PAINE. Pardon? - -Mr. JENNER. The matter of her coming to live with you, the possibility -of her living with you on a more extended basis than---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Was an invitation I had made to her. - -Mr. JENNER. And that her response was not acceptance but one that she -would now defer? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was a "thank you" and a refusal basically. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you respond to that letter? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. My letter is dated July 12. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Liebeler will mark that Commission Exhibit 416, which -consists of how many pages, Mr. Liebeler, three pages. You have that -exhibit. Is that exhibit all in your handwriting? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that the draft of letter to which you have reference -being your response to Marina's letter of---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Undated letter. - -Mr. JENNER. Undated letter which would be somewhere just prior to July -21? - -Mrs. PAINE. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. And is that a draft of letter in the same condition now as -it was when you completed it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you supplied the Commission with a translation of that -letter? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have. - -Mr. JENNER. We will mark as Commission Exhibits 417 and 418 two -exhibits, the first being a one-page exhibit entitled "Translation from -Russian", and the second being a four page photograph of what appears -to be a letter dated July 21, 1963. Directing your attention to Exhibit -418. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you find it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you please identify that exhibit? It consists of four -pages. - -Mrs. PAINE. It appears to be a photograph of my letter to her of July -21. - -Mr. JENNER. Having observed it and looked at it last night, is it your -best recollection at the moment that it is a photograph of the letter -that you actually transmitted to Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to the next exhibit which is No. -418---- - -Mrs. PAINE. 417, you are talking about the translation. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that a translation of the letter, of your letter to her? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is far from complete. - -Representative FORD. It is far from complete? - -Mrs. PAINE. Far from complete. It is incomplete. - -Mr. JENNER. I would like to have you make then, directing your -attention to the translation that has been supplied us. - -Mrs. PAINE. It goes as far as two-thirds down on page 2, you must have -more somewhere. - -Mr. JENNER. No; that is all we have. Would you mark with this red -marker pen the point to which Exhibit 417 is a translation? - -Mrs. PAINE. Here. - -Mr. JENNER. Is the translation accurate up to that point or rather do -you have any exceptions to it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In relation to what? - -Mrs. PAINE. "This would" on the next to the last paragraph "this would -offend my father very much." "This hurt my father", no subjunctive to -it. - -Mr. JENNER. Do it this way. Read what is on it, what the interpreter---- - -Mrs. PAINE. Wait. - -Mr. JENNER. Said. - -Mrs. PAINE. I guess that is just the interpreter trying to "offer you -an alternative". State the question again. You want to know if I take -any exception to the translation I have before me, this portion of my -July 21 letter? They are all small. - -Mr. JENNER. They are small and none of consequence. - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. So far as you are concerned. Your translation, however, -that you supplied the Commission is as far as you are concerned -accurate and what you intend to say, at least? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and I think it is what I said. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. I offer in evidence, if the Chairman please, the -documents that have been marked--may I have them please, Representative -Ford? - -Mrs. PAINE. These, too? - -Mr. JENNER. Documents marked 415, 416, 417, and 418. - -Mr. McCLOY. Do I understand there is not a complete translation? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. McCLOY. Of the letter. It is an incomplete translation? - -Mrs. PAINE. There is a page 2 somewhere. - -Mr. JENNER. That is correct. During the noon hour I will see if that is -not a mistake and if I can be supplied with the balance, if there is a -balance. - -Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted in this form and then you can advise -us after the recess whether there is anything additional to insert at -this point. - -(The documents referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. -415, 416, 417, and 418, were received in evidence.) - -Mr. JENNER. Now, there is a matter to which I would like to draw your -attention in your letter of July 21, which is Commission Exhibit No. -416, the last portion of it, and I direct your attention, in turn, -to your own interpretation appearing at page 3. The last paragraph, -when you brought Marina to New Orleans, did you do anything by way of -seeking to have people in New Orleans visit her? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. I have already testified that after an initial warm -greeting with Lee, they quarreled, and I was uncomfortable there, and -wanted to get back home. I had thought of making contact for Marina -with someone in the Russian speaking community in New Orleans, and -later when I didn't hear from her after this note that looks like "I -will have to go back to Russia after all," I much regretted that I had -not made some contact for her, someone she could talk to, herself. -And anxious, not having heard from her a month from the time of this -appendage to my corrected letter, I telephoned Ruth Kloepfer who is the -clerk of the Quaker Meeting in New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you spell her name, please? - -Mrs. PAINE. She is not someone I know. That is spelled K-L-O-E-P-F-E-R, -and I asked her if she knew any Russians in New Orleans. She did not. I -then wrote to Mrs. Paul Blanchard. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, when you use the pronoun "she" there you asked -Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. I asked Mrs. Kloepfer if she knew any Russian-speaking -people and described why I was interested in knowing. I must have given -her the address of Marina, probably asked that she go and see her. In -any case, I have a letter which followed that telephone call, which I -wrote to Mrs. Paul Blanchard. - -Mr. McCLOY. Pardon me, did you say you telephoned to Mrs. Blanchard or -you wrote to Mrs. Blanchard? - -Mrs. PAINE. I wrote to Mrs. Blanchard, I had originally telephoned to -Mrs. Kloepfer. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you make the telephone call when you were in New -Orleans? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; this was when I was concerned. I had not heard from -Marina for a month. I did not know whether she was in good health or -had gone back to the Soviet Union. - -Mr. JENNER. So you called Mrs. Kloepfer in New Orleans? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. After having tried to call the Murrets. I -had not had their name accurately. - -Representative BOGGS. How did you happen to write to Mrs. Blanchard? - -Mrs. PAINE. She is the secretary of the Unitarian Church in New Orleans -and I called the Quaker Church in Dallas to find out who was in New -Orleans of the Quakers, and then I called the Unitarian Church which my -husband belongs to in Dallas to find out who the secretary of the New -Orleans Unitarian Church was. - -Representative BOGGS. You do not know Mrs. Blanchard? - -Mrs. PAINE. I did not know her, and I did not know Mrs. Kloepfer -either, and appended to this that I am leaving with the Commission is -my carbon of a letter to Mrs. Blanchard of the Unitarian Church, which -I sent in carbon to Mrs. Kloepfer so each would know what the other was -doing in an effort to find a Russian-speaking person who could be a -contact for Marina. - -(At this point Representative Ford left the hearing room.) - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you have now mentioned a letter that you wrote -to Mrs. Blanchard; have you supplied the Commission with a carbon copy -of that letter? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have. - -Mr. JENNER. And it is a two-page document, Mr. Chairman, dated July 18, -1963, now marked as Commission Exhibit 419. That exhibit has now been -handed to you, Mrs. Paine. Is that the carbon copy of your letter to -Mrs. Blanchard? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. You did not know Mrs. Blanchard, had never heard of her -prior to the time you wrote the letter? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. It begins saying, "Mrs. Philip Harper, the -secretary of the Dallas Unitarian Church, suggested I write to you when -I told her of the following problem." - -Mr. JENNER. Is the document in the same condition now as it was when -you prepared the original of which that is a carbon copy? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 419 the -document which has been so identified. - -Mr. McCLOY. It may be so admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked for identification as Commission -Exhibit No. 419 and received in evidence.) - -Mrs. PAINE. Will there be any difficulty that it starts with typing and -then it goes carbon? - -Mr. JENNER. Explain that. - -Mrs. PAINE. I wrote two carbon paragraphs and then I thought I should -write a carbon of this to Mrs. Blanchard and put in a carbon and then -in my own copy put in typing. - -Mr. JENNER. So that which appears to be a copy is an original and that -which follows, what appears to be original, is an actual carbon copy of -the letter you actually sent to Mrs. Blanchard? - -Mrs. PAINE. With copy stated here to Mrs. Kloepfer. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you hear from Marina on that subject at any time? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. In her succeeding and last letter that I got from her. - -Mr. JENNER. Her succeeding letter is dated what? - -Mrs. PAINE. It has no date inside. It is postmarked August 11 from New -Orleans and sent to me while I was on vacation. - -Mr. JENNER. We have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 420 the envelope -and attached to 420 is what purports to be a four-page letter in -Russian longhand--may we have this as a group exhibit consisting of the -envelope and the four-page letter? - -Mr. McCLOY. If it is properly attached I guess you can. - -Mrs. PAINE. There is no date on the letter, if they separate you don't -know what it is. - -Mr. JENNER. We have marked the four-page letter as Commission Exhibit -421 in order to avoid any difficulty. - -Directing your attention to Exhibit 421, do you recognize the -handwriting on that exhibit? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is Marina Oswald's handwriting. - -Mr. JENNER. That is a letter to you, is it not? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. And you supplied the Commission with your translation of -that letter? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. - -Mr. JENNER. That appears at pages 13 and 14 of the materials you -furnished me? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that letter in the same condition now as it was when you -received it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; with the exception of an addition in my handwriting on -the bottom of unmarked page 3. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you read that? - -Mrs. PAINE. Which is a translation of one word. - -Mr. JENNER. What word is that? - -Mrs. PAINE. A word means to grow downcast. - -Mr. DULLES. I didn't catch that. - -Mrs. PAINE. To grow downcast, to lose courage. - -Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to the envelope which is marked -Commission Exhibit 420. - -Mrs. PAINE. I want to make one other comment. I underlined the word on -the second page that I have translated as "winsome." - -Mr. JENNER. W-i-n-s-o-m-e? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The other underlinings in her letter are her own. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Directing your attention to the pink envelope -which is Commission Exhibit No. 420, was Exhibit 421 enclosed in -Exhibit 420? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was. - -Mr. JENNER. That also is in English, that is the address? - -Mrs. PAINE. The address is in English, addressed to me while on -vacation. - -Mr. JENNER. And you received those documents in due course? - -Mrs. PAINE. Which documents? - -Mr. JENNER. You received the documents in due course? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was not forwarded. It was addressed to me where I was. - -Mr. JENNER. But you received them is all I am asking? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes. - -Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits 420 and 421, the -documents which have been so marked. - -Mr. McCLOY. They may be so admitted. - -(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 420 and -421 for identification and received in evidence.) - -Mr. JENNER. There is one item in Exhibit 421 to which I wish to direct -your attention. On the last page about the third paragraph from the -bottom appears the second sentence, "Lee doesn't have work now already -three weeks." Do you find that? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you had any information prior to the receipt of this -letter that Lee Oswald no longer was employed in New Orleans? - -Mrs. PAINE. I had no such information. - -Mr. JENNER. This was your first information? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you respond to that letter? - -Mrs. PAINE. I did. - -Mr. JENNER. I have a five-page document Mr. Liebeler is identifying as -Commission Exhibit No. 422. - -Mrs. PAINE. This is not what you want. You want my reply, don't you -next? - -Mr. JENNER. That is right. - -Mrs. PAINE. This is not it. You have my reply but I had had no copy of -that. - -Mr. JENNER. We will keep that exhibit number. There has been identified -as Commission Exhibit 423 an exhibit consisting of four pages, the -first three of which are a photograph of a letter, and the last page of -which is a photograph of an envelope. Handing you Commission Exhibit -No. 423, is that a picture of your letter to Marina Oswald in response -to her letter of August 11? - -Mrs. PAINE. August 11. Yes; it is dated August 24, 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. And you do recognize that as being a picture copy of letter -you had written? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And you supplied the Commission with a translation of that -letter? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not. I did not have this in rough draft. I had no -copy of this. You may have a translation but I do not. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mrs. PAINE. I supplied you only on this summary that you have with a -brief recollection of what it contained. - -Mr. JENNER. I now hand you a document, Commission Exhibit No. 424 -consisting of two pages which purports to be a translation of Exhibit -423. Did you review that translation with me last evening? - -Mrs. PAINE. Briefly. - -Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection at the moment of what you -said last night that the translation is of Exhibit 423? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is approximately what I recall writing. I didn't look at -the Russian in your pictures. - -Mr. JENNER. During the noon recess would you wish to look at that and -if you have any exception you wish to take to the translation would you -please state it to the Commission? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. May I intervene at this point about Exhibit 422, has that -been properly identified? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; not yet. - -Mr. JENNER. Could we return it to the witness? Exhibit 422 is in whose -handwriting? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is in my handwriting. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that a draft of a letter? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is a letter which I wrote but never sent. - -Mr. JENNER. You testified about that letter yesterday? - -Mrs. PAINE. I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you not? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is dated April 7. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you supplied the Commission with a translation, your -translation of that letter? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have with appropriate paragraph before it saying -that it was not sent, that I wrote it not necessarily to send or give -to her but simply to have, I think as I testified yesterday, the words -at my command ready in case it seemed appropriate to make such an -invitation. - -Mr. JENNER. And this was prepared on or about April 7, 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. I would judge on the 7th. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that letter in the same condition now as it was when you -completed writing it? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have added since completing writing, I have added in -pencil at the top, "not sent" in English. It is otherwise the same. - -Mr. JENNER. I won't go into that further, Mr. Chairman, because the -witness did testify about it yesterday other than to offer the document -in evidence. - -Mr. McCLOY. I simply thought it needed a little elaboration. - -Mr. JENNER. You were quite right, sir. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 422 for -identification and received in evidence.) - -Mr. JENNER. Where were you in the summer of 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. May I interrupt. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. Did you want to make any reference to the reference to -Lee's driving in Exhibit 424? - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you very much, Mrs. Paine, and I do want to go into -it. - -Mrs. PAINE. I have it underlined. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Dulles, would you be good enough to let me have it? -This translation which appears as Commission Exhibit 424, the fourth -paragraph reads "Lee told me that he learned a little from his Uncle -how to drive a car. It would be very useful for him to know how to -drive but it is hard to find time for this when he works every day." - -Mrs. PAINE. I might make a comment about that. - -Mr. JENNER. This is your comment, is it not? - -Mrs. PAINE. I might make a comment about that. - -Mr. JENNER. This is your comment, is it not? - -Mrs. PAINE. I wrote that. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, the Commission is very interested in the subject -matter of Mr. Oswald, of Lee Oswald being able to drive a car and -I think it might be well if we covered the whole subject from the -beginning to the end. - -Would you give the Commission your full, most accurate recollection of -this whole subject? Start at the very beginning. - -Mrs. PAINE. I think I learned either in March or April that Lee---- - -Mr. JENNER. Of 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. This would be early in your acquaintance with him? - -Mrs. PAINE. Very early. I learned Lee was not able to drive and didn't -have a license. - -Mr. JENNER. How did you learn he was not able to drive? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think it was related to his looking for work the first -time in the middle of April, and I had learned he had looked in the -Dallas area for work. - -Mr. JENNER. How did you learn it? - -Mrs. PAINE. We were talking about it. - -Mr. JENNER. You were talking with Lee? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he tell you that he was not able to drive a car? - -Mrs. PAINE. That he had never learned how. - -Mr. JENNER. That he had difficulty in getting around? - -Mrs. PAINE. Simply he had never learned how. - -Mr. JENNER. He said this to you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And I felt immediately that his job opportunities, the -jobs to which he could have applied, and the jobs to which he could get -himself would be greatly broadened if he were able to drive and said so. - -Mr. JENNER. You said that to him? - -Mrs. PAINE. And said that to him. Then when we arrived in New Orleans -he said to me by way of almost pride that he had been allowed by his -uncle to drive his uncle's car. - -Mr. JENNER. That is Mr. Murret? - -Mrs. PAINE. I don't know whether there was more than one. - -Mr. JENNER. But he volunteered the statement to you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And it was something that had occurred after he had gotten -to New Orleans? - -Mrs. PAINE. And he was in a sense pleased to report to me that he was -getting some experience driving. That his uncle had permitted him to -drive the car on the street. - -Mr. JENNER. On the street? - -Mrs. PAINE. On the street. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion while you were in New Orleans to -verify that in any respect whatsoever? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Or have it verified to you? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. This was confined to a remark that he made to you? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. Then when I learned in Marina's letter of -August 11 that Lee was out of work, I immediately thought it would -be well for him to make use of those free weekdays, not only for job -hunting but for learning the skill of driving and, therefore, that -paragraph--shall we read it? - -Mr. JENNER. Haven't I already read it? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't think so. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean from your letter? - -Mrs. PAINE. Did you read that? - -Mr. JENNER. The paragraph "Lee told me that he learned a little from -his uncle how to drive a car." - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you read that "It would be very useful for him to know -how to drive but it is hard to find time for this when he works every -day." - -Just to be certain of this, Mrs. Paine, this was a remark made to you -by Lee Harvey Oswald when you brought Marina from Irving, Tex., to New -Orleans, and---- - -Mrs. PAINE. The second week in May. - -Mr. JENNER. The second week in May of 1963. And then, according to the -remark made to you by Lee Harvey Oswald that his uncle had permitted -him to drive his uncle's car on the street in New Orleans? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and he was proud of this. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ask at that time or any time while you were in New -Orleans in the spring to drive your car? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at all during--did you have the -feeling that he would like to drive the car? - -Mrs. PAINE. There was no discussion of it. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he demonstrate to you that he could drive? - -Mrs. PAINE. There was no discussion of it. - -Mr. JENNER. You have given us all that occurred in New Orleans by -way of conversation or otherwise on the subject of Lee Harvey Oswald -driving an automobile or his ability to drive? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you are telling us the whole story on this subject. So -when next---- - -Senator COOPER. May I ask this one question? - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. - -Senator COOPER. Did Lee Oswald identify the uncle who permitted him to -drive his car? - -Mrs. PAINE. Senator Cooper, he did not. He just said his uncle. He did -not identify his uncle by name. - -Senator COOPER. Do you know of your own knowledge who the uncle was? - -Mrs. PAINE. I can only assume. - -Senator COOPER. What? - -Mrs. PAINE. I can only assume it was the uncle he had been staying -with. He had been staying at his home. - -Mr. JENNER. You had met the uncle at this time? - -Mrs. PAINE. Just met him. - -Mr. JENNER. So it was the uncle with whom he had been staying just -before he obtained the apartment at Magazine? - -Mr. McCLOY. What is the uncle's name? - -Mr. JENNER. Dutz Murret. This was the relative who had the nice home -that Marina first saw when she arrived there and thought maybe that is -where she was going to live, is that correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Go ahead, Mrs. Paine. - -Mrs. PAINE. You want all other references to driving? - -Mr. JENNER. Confining yourself to his ability to drive automobiles, -when next, and take it in chronological order as to when you next -recall it? - -Mrs. PAINE. It came up next after he returned to the Dallas area in -October. - -Mr. JENNER. When was that? - -Mrs. PAINE. After he returned on the 4th, to my knowledge. - -Mr. JENNER. The 4th of October? - -Mrs. PAINE. That was the first I know. - -Mr. JENNER. We will get into the reasons and the circumstances but you -stick with the automobile incidents. - -Mrs. PAINE. He was looking for work. - -Mr. JENNER. In Dallas? - -Mrs. PAINE. In the Dallas area and again, of course, I felt that he -could find more jobs, be eligible for more if he could drive. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you do about it? - -Mrs. PAINE. I recalled that I had a copy of the regulations for -driving, what you need to know to pass the written test. - -Mr. JENNER. In what State? - -Mrs. PAINE. In the State of Texas, and I gave him that booklet. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have a discussion with him about your desire, your -recommendation, that he qualify to drive an automobile in Texas so it -would assist him in connection with his job hunting. - -Mrs. PAINE. Probably. We certainly had conversation about it. - -Mr. JENNER. Give us the subject of the conversation in terms of -recommendations by you, or what did you say? - -Mrs. PAINE. I again recommended, as I had in the spring, that he learn -to drive. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he say? - -Mrs. PAINE. He was interested in learning to drive. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything to you? - -Mrs. PAINE. I would like to offer to the Commission something we didn't -get to last night. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mrs. PAINE. Which is a letter I wrote to my mother, which she just -showed me recently, she just found it recently, which makes reference -to the date I first gave him a lesson in driving. - -Mr. JENNER. That would be helpful to us. May I have the letter, please? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Now only a portion of it is applicable. - -Mr. JENNER. Why don't we give it a number? - -Mrs. PAINE. Another portion is applicable in another connection, which -I would like especially to bring up. - -Mr. JENNER. Having that in mind, we will give that document for -identification at the moment only, the number Commission Exhibit No. -425. - -I won't identify it beyond that for the moment because the witness will -be using it to refresh her recollection. - -Mrs. PAINE. I will read what applies here. - -Mr. JENNER. You are now reading from Commission Exhibit No. 425. - -Mrs. PAINE. Which is a letter dated October 14, in my hand, from me to -my mother. - -Mr. DULLES. Would you give your mother's name? - -Mrs. PAINE. Her name is Mrs. Carol Hyde. - -Representative BOGGS. Where does she live? - -Mrs. PAINE. In Columbus, Ohio. It was likely written to Oberlin, where -she was a student at that time. - -"If Lee can just find work that will help so much. Meantime I started -giving him driving lessons last Sunday (yesterday). If he can drive -this will open up more job possibilities and more locations." - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. I want to comment too on the nature of this lesson. - -Mr. JENNER. The Commission will be interested in that but you go ahead. - -Mrs. PAINE. Now? - -Mr. JENNER. Go right ahead. - -Mrs. PAINE. I knew that he had not even a learner's permit to drive. I -wasn't interested in his driving on the street with my car until he had -such. But on Sunday the parking lot of a neighboring shopping center -was empty, and I am quite certain that is where the driving lesson took -place. - -Mr. JENNER. That is your best present recollection? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Now I recall this also, and it is significant. I -offered him a lesson and intended to drive him to this area for him to -practice. He, however, started the car. - -Mr. JENNER. He got in and started the car? - -Mrs. PAINE. He got in and started the car so that I know he was able to -do that and wanted to drive on the street to the parking lot. - -Mr. JENNER. He wanted to? - -Mrs. PAINE. He wanted to. I said, "My father is an insurance man and he -would never forgive me." - -Mr. JENNER. Your father? - -Mrs. PAINE. My father. And insisted that he get a learner's permit -before he would drive on the street. - -Mr. JENNER. At that moment and at that time he acted, in any event in -your presence, as though he himself thought---- - -Mrs. PAINE. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. He would be capable of driving an automobile from your home -to the parking area in which you were about to give him a lesson. That -was your full impression, was it not? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I should add that, as I am recalling, he did drive a -portion of the way, he drove in fact, it is about three blocks, to the -parking lot. I was embarrassed to just tell him "No, don't." But I did, -in, effect, on the way there, when he was on the street, driving on the -street in my car, when we got there I said, "Now, I am going to drive -back." I didn't want him to. - -Mr. JENNER. From your home to the parking lot? - -Mrs. PAINE. The first time before we had any lesson at all. And at that -time I made it clear I didn't want him to drive in the street. Also, -it became clear to me in that lesson that he was very unskilled in -driving. We practiced a number of the things you need to know, to back -up, to turn, right angle turn to come to a stop. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this on the parking lot? - -Mrs. PAINE. This was all on a parking lot. - -Mr. DULLES. Did I understand you to say he drove three blocks, was that -all the way to the parking lot? So he drove all the way to the parking -lot? - -Mrs. PAINE. Perhaps a little longer. But a short distance, whatever it -was, to the parking lot, yes. Rather than stopping in midstreet and -changing drivers. Going to turn a right angle---- - -Mr. DULLES. How well did he do on that? - -Mr. McCLOY. That is what she is telling. - -Mrs. PAINE. No; that is a separate answer. - -Mr. JENNER. She is talking about the parking lot. - -Mrs. PAINE. I was very nervous while he was doing it and was not at -all happy about his doing it. I would say he did modestly well; but no -means skilled in coming to a stop and turning a square right angle at a -corner. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there much traffic? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. But then too, I noticed when we got to the parking lot -when he attempted to turn in a right angle he made the usual mistake of -a beginner of turning too much and then having to correct it. He was -not familiar with the delay of the steering wheel in relation to the -wheels, actual wheels of the power---- - -Mr. JENNER. Was it power---- - -Mrs. PAINE. It was not power steering. But it has no clutch so that -makes it a lot easier to drive. - -Mr. JENNER. It is an automatic transmission? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is an automatic transmission. - -Mr. JENNER. Describe your automobile, will you please? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is a 1955 Chevrolet station wagon, green, needing paint, -which we bought secondhand. It is in my name. - -Mr. McCLOY. But automatic transmission? - -Mrs. PAINE. Automatic transmission; yes. - -Then, in the later lessons, I think there were altogether three with -Lee---- - -Mr. JENNER. Have you finished with this lesson on the Sunday morning, -was it? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; it was a Sunday afternoon and I drove back to the house. - -Mr. JENNER. How long did the lesson take on the parking lot? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, 20 minutes, perhaps. I will say of him that he set for -himself tasks; a good student in the sense that he planned now I am -going to back up this way and I am going--one of the problems is to -turn around and go the other way on the street. In other words---- - -Mr. JENNER. U-turn. - -Mrs. PAINE. It is not a U-turn, no. It is a narrower one to head in -back up and go the other way and he would set this problem for himself, -how to do it, back up and do it, and set the problem of backing up, -driving, going back, I mean. And set himself a course. I was doing -this, too, but I was interested in the eagerness he had and his desire -to achieve; desire to do this and do it well. - -In helping himself by setting up these course plans, you could almost -say. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Would you refresh my recollection of the date this occurred? - -Mrs. PAINE. My letter is dated the 14th. I say, "I taught him -yesterday, Sunday." - -Mr. JENNER. Fourteenth of October? - -Mrs. PAINE. Fourteenth of October. So that would have been---- - -Mr. JENNER. That would have been October 7? - -Mrs. PAINE. Thirteenth. - -Senator COOPER. May I ask a question here? - -Mr. McCLOY. Senator Cooper has a question. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Senator COOPER. On the occasion when you drove with him, did you find -it necessary to show him how to turn on the ignition? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not. - -Senator COOPER. How to take steps to start the car and put it in motion? - -Mrs. PAINE. No, indeed; he had started it before I came out or else he -wouldn't have been in the driver's seat because I didn't want him to -drive on the street. So he had the car ready to go; backed out with a -considerable bump. - -Mr. JENNER. He backed out of the driveway? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am recalling this now, I think so. I recall that he then -didn't attempt to go, I didn't let him, but at one point we practiced -parking on the street in front of my house. - -Mr. JENNER. This was a subsequent occasion? - -Mrs. PAINE. This was a subsequent occasion. But when the lesson was -done he gradually let me turn the car into the driveway. This is -harder and I was glad to do it and he was glad to be relieved of that -requirement. - -Representative BOGGS. Mr. Chairman, I don't want to interrupt this line -of inquiry, but I have to go to a meeting at the Speaker's office and -I can't be back this afternoon, and I wonder if I might ask Mrs. Paine -several questions? - -Mr. McCLOY. By all means. - -Representative BOGGS. Not particularly in this line. - -Where did you first meet Marina. I know you told us. - -Mr. McCLOY. She testified to that yesterday. - -Representative BOGGS. Tell me briefly. - -Mrs. PAINE. At a party of people at the end of February 1963. - -Representative BOGGS. How long was it thereafter that she moved into -your home for the first time? - -Mrs. PAINE. She first came on the 24th of April. - -Representative BOGGS. And she lived there for 2 weeks? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Representative BOGGS. And her husband lived here--her husband was with -her? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. He had already gone on to New Orleans. - -Representative BOGGS. When did she return to your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. She came with me from New Orleans, leaving there the 23d of -September and arriving in Irving the 24th of September. - -Representative BOGGS. And she lived with you in Irving from the 24th of -September until the 23d? - -Mrs. PAINE. The morning of the 23d. - -Representative BOGGS. Of November? - -Mrs. PAINE. She left the morning of the 23d, she left expecting to come -back. - -Representative BOGGS. During that period of time did Lee Oswald live -there? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Representative BOGGS. He visited there on weekends? - -Mrs. PAINE. He visited there on weekends. - -Representative BOGGS. How well did you know Lee Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. Insufficiently well. - -Representative BOGGS. What do you mean by that? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I regret, of course, very deeply that I didn't -perceive him as a violent man. - -Representative BOGGS. You saw no evidence of violence in him at any -time? - -Mrs. PAINE. No, I didn't. He argued with his wife but he never struck -her. I never heard from her of any violence from him. - -Representative BOGGS. Did he ever express any hostility toward anyone -while he was talking with you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Not of a violent or---- - -Representative BOGGS. Did he ever express any political opinions to you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, he called himself a Marxist. He said that on the -occasion after Stevenson had been in town in relation to the United -Nations Day. - -Mr. JENNER. Adlai Stevenson? - -Mrs. PAINE. Adlai Stevenson, and Lee had been to a meeting of the -National Indignation Committee held another night that week, and he was -at our home the following Friday night and commented that he didn't -like General Walker. - -This is the only thing I heard from him on the subject. - -Representative BOGGS. Did he ever express any violence toward General -Walker? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Representative BOGGS. Did he ever discuss President Kennedy with you? - -Mrs. PAINE. He never mentioned Kennedy at all. - -Representative BOGGS. Did you see the rifle that he had in the room in -your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. In the garage, no. - -Representative BOGGS. In the garage, you never saw one? - -Mrs. PAINE. I never saw that rifle at all until the police showed it to -me in the station on the 22d of November. - -Representative BOGGS. Were you at home when the FBI interviewed Marina -and Lee? - -Mrs. PAINE. The FBI never interviewed Marina and me; I was waiting to -hear your question. - -Representative BOGGS. At your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. The FBI never interviewed Marina and Lee at my home. The -FBI was there one afternoon and talked to Marina through me; they never -saw Lee Oswald in my home. I told them he would be there on a weekend. - -Representative BOGGS. Did you ever discuss politics with Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. As close as we would come, I would say, would be what I -have mentioned about Madam Nhu; she was interested in what the family -would do. She also said to me that she thought Khrushchev was a rather -coarse, country person. She said that she admired Mrs. Kennedy a great -deal, and liked, this is all before, liked President Kennedy very much. - -Mr. JENNER. This was all before November 22? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Representative BOGGS. Were you aware of the fact that Lee returned to -your home the night before the assassination? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Representative BOGGS. Were you curious about that in view of the fact -that he seldom came except on weekends? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was the first time he had come without asking permission -to come. He came after he and his wife had quarreled, and Marina and I -said to one another, we took this to be as close as he could come to an -apology, and an effort to make up. - -Representative BOGGS. That was the reason you thought he had come? - -Mrs. PAINE. But I didn't inquire of him. - -Representative BOGGS. You did not know that the next morning when he -left he had a rifle? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Representative BOGGS. Did you see him when he left that morning? - -Mrs. PAINE. No, I didn't. - -Representative BOGGS. Have you been active in politics yourself? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; I vote. And I am a member of the League of Women -Voters, that is the extent of my activity. - -Representative BOGGS. Do you belong to any other political -organizations? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you ever belonged? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Representative BOGGS. Are you, I don't know quite how to state this -question, are you a practicing Quaker? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am. I am also a pacifist. - -Representative BOGGS. You are a pacifist? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Representative BOGGS. You are not a Marxist? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; they don't go together, in fact. You can't believe -violent overthrow and be a pacifist. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you know Norman Thomas quite well? - -Mrs. PAINE. When I was 8 I went to a rally of Norman Thomas in New York -City. That was my only contact. - -Representative BOGGS. Is your feeling towards Marina, shall I say in -the Quaker spirit of friendship and hospitality, was that the main -objective, plus the intellectual? - -Mrs. PAINE. I was interested in the language. - -Representative BOGGS. Intellectual stimulation of the language. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I found that while living with her, I could say that -this day, at least added something to what I knew, what I--I learned a -few more words. - -Representative BOGGS. You never formed any opinion about Lee Oswald as -a person? - -Mrs. PAINE. I formed many, and I would like to make that a special area. - -Representative BOGGS. Would you just tell me just in a sentence or two, -I know you could go into it in greater detail, but was your opinion -favorable? Was it unfavorable, or what? - -Mrs. PAINE. I disliked him actively in the spring when I thought he -just wanted to get rid of his wife and wasn't caring about her, wasn't -concerned whether she would go to the doctor. I then found him much -nicer, I thought, when I saw him next in New Orleans in late September, -and this would be a perfectly good time to admit the rest of the -pertinent part of this letter to my mother written October 14, because -it shows something that I think should be part of the public record, -and I am one of the few people who can give it, that presents Lee -Oswald as a human person, a person really rather ordinary, not an ogre -that was out to leave his wife, and be harsh and hostile to all that he -knew. - -But in this brief period during the times that he came out on weekends, -I saw him as a person who cared for his wife and his child, tried to -make himself helpful in my home, tried to make himself welcome although -he really preferred to stay to himself. - -He wasn't much to take up a conversation. This says, "Dear Mom," this -is from Commission Exhibit No. 425, "Lee Oswald is looking for work in -Dallas. Did my last letter say so? Probably not. He arrived a week and -a half ago and has been looking for work since. It is a very depressing -business for him, I am sure. He spent last weekend and the one before -with us here and was a happy addition to our expanded family. He played -with Chris"--my 3-year-old, then 2--"watched football on the TV, planed -down the doors that wouldn't close, they had shifted and generally -added a needed masculine flavor"---- - -Mr. JENNER. Wait a second. - -Mrs. PAINE. "And generally added a needed masculine flavor. From a poor -first impression I have come to like him. We saw the doctor at Parkland -Hospital last Friday and all seems very healthy" and this refers to -Marina. "It appears that charges will be geared to their ability to -pay." - -Representative BOGGS. Were you---- - -Mrs. PAINE. May I go on? - -Representative BOGGS. Yes; surely. Finish. - -Mrs. PAINE. This was an intervening section where he was the most human -that I saw him, and, of course, it has been followed by my anger with -him, and all the feeling that most of us have about his act. But it -seems to me important, very important, to the record that we face the -fact that this man was not only human but a rather ordinary one in many -respects, and who appeared ordinary. - -If we think that this was a man such as we might never meet, a great -aberration from the normal, someone who would stand out in a crowd as -unusual, then we don't know this man, we have no means of recognizing -such a person again in advance of a crime such as he committed. - -The important thing, I feel, and the only protection we have is to -realize how human he was though he added to it this sudden and great -violence beyond---- - -Representative BOGGS. You have no doubt about the fact that he -assassinated President Kennedy? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have no present doubt. - -Representative BOGGS. Do you have any reason to believe he was -associated with anyone else in this act or it was part of a conspiracy? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have no reason to believe he was associated with anyone. - -Representative BOGGS. Did you ever see him talking with anyone else, in -conversation with anybody else or get mail at your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. I never saw him talking with anyone else. He received all -his mail from home, third class for the most part perhaps one letter -from Russia. - -Representative BOGGS. Did he have telephone calls at your home of a -mysterious nature? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, did he ever have a telephone call at your home -mysterious or otherwise? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; never. - -Representative BOGGS. You then would be surprised if he were part of -any group? - -Mrs. PAINE. I would be very surprised. For one thing, I judged, I -had to wonder whether this man was a spy or someone dangerous to our -Nation. He had been to the Soviet Union and he had come back and he -didn't go as a tourist. He went by his own admission intending to -become a Soviet citizen and then came back. - -Representative BOGGS. What about Marina--go ahead and finish. - -Mrs. PAINE. Then the FBI came, as I thought they well might, interested -in this man who had been to the Soviet Union, and I felt that if he had -associations this would be very easy for them to know. I didn't see -any, but would tend to point to the possibility of his being a spy or -subversive. But I didn't see any such and I felt happy that they were -charged with the responsibility of knowing about it. - -Representative BOGGS. Did you see any indication of any connection of -Marina with any group that might be considered unusual? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; no one called her. - -Representative BOGGS. Did she have any letters? - -Mrs. PAINE. She received a letter from a friend in the Soviet Union -which she showed to me and mentioned to me. - -Representative BOGGS. Was this just a normal letter? - -Mrs. PAINE. Girl friend. - -Representative BOGGS. What is your present relationship with Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. I have seen her once since the assassination. That was a -week ago Monday. It was the first time since the morning of the 23d -when she left my house, both of us expecting she would come back to it -that evening. In the intervening period I wrote her a collection of -letters trying to determine what her feelings were and whether it was -suitable for me to write and see her. - -I am presently confused, as I was then, as to how to best be a friend -to her. I don't know what is appropriate in this situation. - -By that I mean during the time I was writing the letters to her and not -getting an answer when she was with Mr. Martin. - -Representative BOGGS. Was your conversation last Monday friendly? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Representative BOGGS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, thank you, Mrs. Paine. - -Mr. McCLOY. Might I ask one question? - -You said that Lee had mentioned General Walker and indicated that he -didn't like General Walker. Can you elaborate on that a little bit, to -what extent, how violent was he in his expression? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; it wasn't violent at all. It was more of, oh, well, -more not giving him much credit even, but it was done briefly, this -was in passing, so my recollection is hazy. But certainly there was no -strong expression. - -Mr. McCLOY. No vehemence about it? - -Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely not, I would have remembered that. And I recall -that Marina said nothing. - -Mr. McCLOY. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. You mentioned that Lee did not receive any calls at your -house. Did he make any telephone calls? - -Mrs. PAINE. I heard him call what he said was the "Time." You know, he -dialed, listened and hung up, and then he told us what time it was. -That is all his social contact. - -Mr. McCLOY. This is only on one occasion that he spoke of General -Walker? - -Mrs. PAINE. Just that one in my hearing, apropos of a discussion that -was already begun. - -Mr. McCLOY. We have rather interrupted the sequence of your questioning. - -Mr. JENNER. That is all right. - -Representative BOGGS. There is one item I might bring out along the -line you were inquiring about. - -You gave some consideration, did you not, Mrs. Paine, during this -period, as to whether Mr. Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald, could or might -have been a Russian agent. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And we discussed this yesterday, as I recall? - -Mrs. PAINE. Briefly. - -Mr. JENNER. And what conclusions did you come to on that score and why? - -Mrs. PAINE. I thought that he was not very intelligent. I saw as far as -I could see he had no particular contacts. He was not a person I would -have hired for a job of any sort, no more than I would have let him -borrow my car. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you give consideration in that connection? Did his -level of intelligence affect your judgment as to whether the Russian -Government would have hired him? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. How did it affect you? - -Mrs. PAINE. I doubted they would have hired him. I kept my mind open on -it to wonder. - -Mr. JENNER. And you had doubt why? - -Mrs. PAINE. Simply because he had gone to the Soviet Union and -announced that he wanted to stay, and then came back, and I wasn't -convinced that he liked America. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your judgment of him, and as to his level of -intelligence, affect your decision ultimately that the Russian -Government might not or would not have hired him because he was not a -man of capacity to serve in such a way for the Russian Government? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that affected my judgment. - -Mr. DULLES. Have you any idea as to his motivation in the act, in light -of what you have said in the assassination? - -Mrs. PAINE. It is conjecture, of course, but I feel he always felt -himself to be a small person; and he was right. That he wanted to be -greater, or noticed, and Marina had said of him he thinks he is so big -and fine, and he should take a more realistic view of himself and not -be so conceited. - -(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) - -Mrs. PAINE. And I feel that he acted much more from the emotional -pushings within him than from any rational set of ideas, and---- - -Mr. DULLES. Emotional pushings toward aggrandizement you have in mind -is what you said? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. McCLOY. When you testified earlier this morning, Mrs. Paine, about -the dry sighting of the rifle, you know what dry sighting is, don't you? - -Mrs. PAINE. I found out last night. - -Mr. McCLOY. You found that out last night? - -Senator COOPER. Tell her to describe it then. - -Mrs. PAINE. Shall I try to describe it? See if I know? It involves -holding the rifle and as if to fire and pulling the trigger, but -without any ammunition in it. Going through the motions and, therefore, -wiggling it and having to resight it. - -Representative FORD. Going through the motions? - -Mrs. PAINE. Of ejecting something. - -Senator COOPER. A dry run. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that sufficient, Senator? - -Mrs. PAINE. Do I understand it? - -Mr. McCLOY. That is a pretty good description, it is just as well as I -can give. - -Representative FORD. You actually saw him doing this? - -Mrs. PAINE. No, he showed me last night how it was done. - -Mr. McCLOY. We had testimony this morning whether he had an opportunity -to dry sight the rifle in his New Orleans house. - -Mrs. PAINE. I was just discussing what would be visible in the front of -his house. - -Mr. JENNER. We were having some testimony, Representative Ford, of Lee -Harvey Oswald's dry sighting of the rifle when he was in New Orleans. - -Representative FORD. Marina so testified when she was here. - -Mr. McCLOY. You don't purport to say it was impossible for him to do it -without observation but it was difficult. - -Mrs. PAINE. It was difficult. - -My then 2-year-old boy found a number of boys with trucks to play with -right on that immediate driveway or alley as it is marked on the paper -and small boys would have been very interested and they went right by -there and Marina complained that Junie couldn't get her nap because -there were so many children. - -Mr. McCLOY. He could have done it very early in the morning without -observation? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. Have you any idea generally how Lee Oswald used his time, I -mean when you weren't observing him when he wasn't at your house? Did -he talk, tell you how he used his time? Did he use it on television? -What I am trying to get at is--is there a great deal of time he had -available to him that there is no way of knowing what he did. But did -he talk about that, did he give you an idea of what he was, how he -occupied himself, reading, television? - -Mrs. PAINE. Talking just about the time after October 4 when he was---- - -Mr. DULLES. Yes; let's take it in that period. - -Mrs. PAINE. I knew he was occupied with looking for a job. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. - -Mrs. PAINE. How much of the day this occupied him, of course, I didn't -know. I didn't see him. Then he got the job, and I judge that occupied -him more fully. He spoke of one evening meeting he went to, this -National Indignation Committee meeting. - -Mr. DULLES. What about other evenings? Do you know anything about other -evenings when he wasn't with you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Except for the one in which he accompanied my husband to a -Civil Liberties Union meeting. - -Mr. DULLES. All right. - -Mr. McCLOY. Did you, at any stage of your life while you were, whether -living with your husband or apart from him, did you ever contemplate -inviting anyone to come and live with you in anything like the manner -in which you did invite Marina? - -Mrs. PAINE. My mother completed her studies at Oberlin College in -February, and we talked---- - -Mr. JENNER. February 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; just now, February of 1964 and we talked about the -possibility as long ago as last summer of 1963, we talked about the -possibility of her coming and staying for several months. I said I was -tired of living alone. This is not exactly comparable, but it also is a -search for a roommate. - -Mr. McCLOY. But apart from your mother, there was no one similarly -situated to Marina, whom you thought of inviting to live with you? - -Mrs. PAINE. No one situated similarly that I knew either. - -Mr. McCLOY. No; you didn't invite anyone? - -Mrs. PAINE. Didn't make any other such invitation. - -Mr. McCLOY. Anyone to live with you. - -Mr. JENNER. Before returning to the automobile and somewhat along the -tail end at least of Representative Boggs' inquiries of you, did you -ever give any consideration, Mrs. Paine, to the possibility that Lee -Harvey Oswald might have been employed by some agency of the Government -of the United States? - -Mrs. PAINE. I never gave that any consideration. - -Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever? - -Mrs. PAINE. None whatsoever. - -Mr. JENNER. It never occurred to you at any time? - -Mrs. PAINE. It never occurred to me at any time. - -Mr. JENNER. That is all on that. - -Was the absence of its occurring to you based on your overall judgment -of Lee Harvey Oswald and his lack, as you say, of, not a highly -intelligent man? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. There was some reason why you gave it no thought, is that -correct? - -Mrs. PAINE. That, and he was not in a position to know anything of use -to either Government. I am questioning myself. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you please elaborate? - -Mrs. PAINE. As regards he might be a Soviet agent, what does this -man know that would be of interest to anybody or what could you find -out, and you judge he didn't know anything that the Soviets might -be interested in, and, as I say, I never gave it any thought of the -possibility of his being employed by this Government. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, Representative Ford, Mrs. Paine had been relating to -us her experiences with Lee Harvey Oswald with respect to his ability -to operate an automobile, and she has up to this moment revealed some -things to us which we had not known of and it is something that is -causing the staff considerable concern. This is his ability to drive -which is a proper connection with his visit to Mexico in some one or -two instances and also his escape or his attempted escape and other -elements. - -We interrupted the chronology to have Mrs. Paine state fully everything -she knows on this particular subject. - -Representative FORD. It is important. - -Mr. JENNER. If we can recall just about where you were because I -would like to have you pick it up just exactly where you were in this -chronology. - -Mrs. PAINE. I had about completed the full statement of what I saw of -his driving. - -I will pick up by repeating when he turned a right angle corner -he would turn too far and have to correct. I will complete now by -describing my teaching him to park. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this on that same Sunday afternoon? - -Mrs. PAINE. There were, I think, three altogether, but I am not -certain. This is the only particular reference. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, but I think, Mr. Chairman, Representative Ford, -Mrs. Paine has related to us something we had not known, that this -Sunday afternoon---- - -Mrs. PAINE. October 13. - -Mr. JENNER. October 13, when she sought to instruct Lee Harvey Oswald -on the local parking lot--was it by a shopping center? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. That he had gotten into the car, in the driveway, with the -key, and had turned on the motor of the car, had backed it up into the -street. - -Mrs. PAINE. And then proceeded to drive to the shopping center. - -Mr. JENNER. With Mrs. Paine. - -Mrs. PAINE. While I complained. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine complaining because she was concerned; she is -the daughter of an insurance actuary. - -Mrs. PAINE. In my complaint I simply said that I would drive back, and -that I didn't want him to drive on the street, but I didn't insist that -he stop at that moment. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. - -Mrs. PAINE. I recall one other afternoon when he practiced just parking -directly in front of our house, and when, as I say, after he had done -this he wanted me to drive the car into the driveway, that being a -little harder to do. - -Mr. JENNER. Where did you keep your car ordinarily, in the driveway? - -Mrs. PAINE. Always in the driveway in front of our house; the garage -itself is too full of many other things. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you leave the key in the car? - -Mrs. PAINE. I never leave the key in the car; I always lock it. - -Mr. JENNER. That was your habit with respect to the ignition key? - -Mrs. PAINE. I always lock the car and leave the ignition key in my -purse. - -Mr. JENNER. You never leave the ignition key around your home? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, my purse was in the home. - -Mr. JENNER. So it was not in the open? - -Mrs. PAINE. He had to go in the purse, never. Just how he got the car -started, I recall my shock that he had. But I must have laid out the -key or something because I did not intend for him to start it. - -Mr. JENNER. You didn't give him the key on that occasion to go out and -start the motor? - -Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely not. - -Mr. JENNER. But when you came out of the house he had already started -the motor and backed the car into the street? - -Mrs. PAINE. No, no; I let him back it out. - -Mr. JENNER. You did? - -Mrs. PAINE. I was deciding what I was going to do. - -Mr. DULLES. You were in the car at that time? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I had gotten in the car at that time. - -Representative FORD. And he was in the driver's seat? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Representative FORD. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he in the driver's seat when you came out of the house? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection. Then, referring now to the -practice of his parking. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Representative Ford, the witness had also -related to us, which we had not known, when she came to New Orleans in -the spring to bring Marina from Irving to New Orleans, that Lee Harvey -Oswald told her that he had driven his uncle's car, one of the Murrets, -in New Orleans on the street. - -Go ahead. - -Representative FORD. Perhaps I should say that I have been absent for -a half hour or so attending a very important committee meeting, so I -didn't get this story from the outset and I appreciate being brought up -to date on it. - -Mrs. PAINE. There were two occasions when we practiced parking, one in -the larger parking lot just backing into, pretending there were cars -there to back between, as in parallel parking, and another occasion -directly in front of my house. On this second occasion directly in -front of my house he finally learned how to do it. He had had a bad -time, getting his wheels too cramped and not getting in, and getting -his wheels straightened out, a beginner's mistakes. - -Finally, I got into the car and told him when to start reversing the -twist on his wheel and cramp, and he said, so soon. It was a surprise. -It didn't feel to him it was time already to start coming out of the -turn. - -And then he saw that it was when he then got into the parking place -correctly, and quite soon got the feel of it but this was clearly his -first experience doing it right, and then he practiced doing it right -several times, and he learned quite well, I thought. - -(At this point, Chief Justice Warren entered the hearing room.) - -Representative FORD. On these subsequent occasions did he ask you to -help him or did he take the keys and do it on his own initiative? - -Mrs. PAINE. No, he never took the keys. I offered to give him--give -Lee lessons on Sunday afternoons and we managed to do it a few Sunday -afternoons, I think three altogether and there were a couple of -weekends when we didn't get the lesson in, something intervened. - -Representative FORD. This was in October of 1963? - -Mrs. PAINE. October and November. I think the last lesson was November -10, being the last Sunday. - -Mr. DULLES. What progress did he make over that period? - -Mrs. PAINE. Considerable. - -Mr. DULLES. Reasonable progress? - -Mrs. PAINE. Very reasonable progress. I thought he learned well, as -I have said, both backing and to make a right-angle turn, and really -began to understand the feeling of parking. - -Representative FORD. Did he indicate to you when he might apply for a -driver's license? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Oh, yes. Thank you. It is a whole new section. - -Mr. JENNER. I was about to go into that. - -Mr. DULLES. There was some testimony on that point, I believe. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Representative FORD. Mr. Frazier testified that Oswald mentioned to him -that he was going to or had, I am not sure which, and I was wondering -whether he mentioned it to you? - -Mr. DULLES. Got in line. - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes, on November 9, which was election day, Saturday, in -Texas. - -Mr. JENNER. This was the weekend he was home? - -Mrs. PAINE. This was the weekend that he was home, which was the last -weekend he was home, don't call it home though. - -Mr. JENNER. I am sorry. It was the last weekend that he was at your -home? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And he arrived the previous day, evening or late afternoon? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Now starting with that Friday afternoon, please relate the -course of events? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, I will say that we went Saturday morning to a station -in Dallas where you can take the written test and eye test that permits -you to get a learner's permit, but when we got there--that is all -of us, children, Lee, Marina and myself, driving in my car to Oak -Cliff--when we got there it was closed, being election day. I hadn't -thought, realized that this would mean it would be closed. So we -returned. - -The next weekend---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, before you reach that. - -Mrs. PAINE. Right. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you reasonably certain that he came home or came to -Irving the previous afternoon? - -Mrs. PAINE. Certainly. - -Mr. JENNER. Perhaps to refresh your recollection, do you remember a -weekend in which Lee Harvey Oswald called from Dallas and said to -Marina that he would not be in that Friday afternoon because he was -going to do some job hunting the next morning, and that he would come -the next day? Could it be that this was that weekend? - -Mrs. PAINE. Well, he had already had a job that weekend, didn't he? -So he wouldn't have been job hunting. I recall he was there in the -morning, Saturday morning. - -Mr. JENNER. Looking for another job? - -Mrs. PAINE. Oh, well, no. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't recall any discussion of his being dissatisfied -with the job at the Texas School Book Depository? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. And was undertaking to look for another job? - -Mrs. PAINE. No. - -Mr. JENNER. There is no discussion? - -Mrs. PAINE. There is one Saturday that he came out later but that -was still in October. It was the second weekend that he came out, -altogether he came out on the weekend of the 4th, so he would have come -out on October 12, Saturday. It doesn't check with my recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. So just to make sure, it is your present recollection that -you can recall no occasion when you were advised by Marina or directly -that Lee Harvey Oswald called and said he would not be in on that -particular Friday but would come the next day? - -Mrs. PAINE. I would be quite certain it was not that weekend. It is -possible that this happened, I don't recall any discussion, nor did I -have any idea that there had been any occasion when he had to look for -a different job. - -Mr. JENNER. Never any discussion on that subject? - -Mrs. PAINE. Never. - -Just to complete the discussion of automobile driving, I will go on to -the next weekend then when he did not come out to my house, but I---- - -Representative FORD. That would be the weekend of the 18th? - -Mrs. PAINE. Just prior to the assassination. The 16th I was having a -birthday party for my little girl and said I couldn't possibly take him -again to this place so he could take a test. But that he didn't need a -car. This was news to him. He thought he needed a car for his initial -test, learner's permit. I said he could go himself from Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. This was a conversation between you and Lee Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. How did it take place? - -Mrs. PAINE. It must have been by phone. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he call you or did you call him? - -Mrs. PAINE. He called to the house nearly every night around 5:30 to -talk to Marina. And Marina suggested to him that he wouldn't, shouldn't -come out that weekend because I was having a birthday party and it had -been a long weekend, the prior weekend. She didn't want him to wear out -his welcome, and then I said to him he could still try to get---- - -Mr. JENNER. You did talk with him on the telephone? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection. I am certain that I talked with -him, that he was surprised that he didn't need a car. I had to tell him -that he didn't need a car to take with him to take his test. - -Mr. JENNER. Take his initial test? - -Mrs. PAINE. Take his test, and suggested that he go from Dallas himself -to take this test. Then he called us Saturday afternoon of the 16th to -say he had been and tried to get his driver's permit but that he had -arrived before closing time but still too late to get in because there -was a long line ahead of him, the place having been closed both the -previous Saturday for election day and the following Monday, the 11th, -Veterans Day. There were a lot of people who wanted to get permits and -he was advised that it wouldn't pay him to wait in line. He didn't have -time to be tested. - -Mr. JENNER. Could you help us fix, can you recall as closely as -possible the day of the week, this is the weekend of the assassination, -was it not? - -Mrs. PAINE. The weekend before. - -Mr. JENNER. The weekend before, and this conversation you are now -relating that you had with him in which he said that he had gone to -the driver's license station, when did that conversation with you take -place? - -Mrs. PAINE. That conversation was with Marina, and she told me about it. - -Mr. JENNER. When did she tell you about it? - -Mrs. PAINE. He called her, it must have been Saturday afternoon, soon -after he had been, he went Saturday morning and they closed at noon. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. This was the weekend he did not come out to Irving? - -Mrs. PAINE. This was the weekend he did not come out. - -Mr. JENNER. The weekend in which you had your birthday party for your -son was it? - -Mrs. PAINE. It was either that same afternoon or it was possibly -Sunday, I don't recall. It is important though. I wish I could recall -when his call to her was. Since it relates to the problem of when I -dialed his number. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 426 -a form or document which purports to be a driver's permit or driver's -license permit application by Lee Harvey Oswald. It is a one-page form -document on heavy board, or at least heavy paper. - -Are you familiar sufficiently with the handwriting or handprinting -of Lee Harvey Oswald to be able to tell us whether the writing and -handprinting on that document is or is not Lee Harvey Oswald's? - -Mrs. PAINE. I am not sufficiently familiar. I can simply compare it -with the only other thing I have seen in his printing which is what he -wrote down in my diary. - -Mr. JENNER. Refreshing your recollection in that respect and looking at -the exhibit, if you are able to do so, would you give us your opinion -as to whether the exhibit is in the handwriting or handprinting of Lee -Harvey Oswald? - -Mrs. PAINE. I think it very likely is. - -Mr. JENNER. In your short talk with Lee Harvey Oswald on the subject of -his having gone to the license application department in Dallas, was -anything said about his actually having filled out a driver's license -or a learner's permit application? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing. - -Mr. DULLES. Could we have the date of this document? - -Mr. JENNER. If it is dated. My recollection is it is not. - -Mrs. PAINE. His birthday is on it only. Picked up at his room on the -date of the assassination. I guess it was picked up, I don't know. - -Mr. JENNER. Could I review this with you a little bit? Did Lee Harvey -Oswald on this occasion tell you in the course of what limited -telephone conversation you had with him, that he had gone to the -driver's license application bureau? - -Mrs. PAINE. No; he told Marina. - -Mr. JENNER. And did--he told Marina and then Marina in turn told you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. How near the time of the telephone conversation? - -Mrs. PAINE. She told me immediately. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Marina tell you? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. She just turned from the phone and told you at once? - -Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. This was spontaneous? - -Mrs. PAINE. Yes. It may have been while she was still on the phone, I -don't recall, but it certainly was immediate. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Dulles, to answer your question the document is not -dated. - -Representative FORD. I was just noticing in the upper right-hand corner -on the one side he lists his occupation as photographer. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; this is so. - -Mrs. PAINE. This is what he wanted to do, not what he was doing. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you please relate to the Commission what your -impression of what his occupation was or occupation had been during the -period of time that you had known him? - -Mrs. PAINE. When I first met him he was working at -Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall. And had expressed himself as liking his work. -I gathered that it was a kind of copying or making up of advertising -layout, develop a photographic process. - -When we arrived at New Orleans he pointed to a building where he was -working. I saw no writing on the outside of the building. He said--no, -first on the phone when he first called to say he had a job, he said he -was doing work similar to what he had been doing, photographic type of -work. - -Representative FORD. Work in Dallas? - -Mrs. PAINE. He called to us in Dallas from New Orleans to say he was -doing such work. - -Mr. JENNER. In New Orleans? - -Mrs. PAINE. Subsequently, I have heard it is not so, but this is what -he told Marina and she told me over the phone. He said, and she told me -immediately over the phone, that he was getting $1.50 an hour instead -of $1.25 he had been getting, and then in New Orleans he pointed to -a building where he was working, somewhere along the river, near the -French Quarter, but a big large brick building with no particular -designation on it. I don't know what sort of building it was, but he -said it was the photo outfit where he was working then. - -When he was looking for a job he said, now, in October, early October, -he came back to the Dallas area and he was looking for a job, he said -he was hopeful of getting similar work again, photographic layout, -whatever it was. But that he was pleased to get any job that would -produce an income. - -Mr. DULLES. For the Commission's information, Mr. Jenner, is this not, -that is Exhibit No. 426, a form which Lee Oswald apparently took home, -or filled out somewhere, either his home or at the office, but it was -never sworn to and is not signed. - -Mr. JENNER. That is correct. - -Mr. DULLES. It is not a completed document. It has no date on it. - -Mr. JENNER. It is my information and there will be testimony and that -is why I didn't go into the document, that it was found in his, among -his effects in his room on Beckley Street. With permission, I might -describe the document possibly a little more in detail in view of the -interest and the question. At the top of the document under name there -is hand printing on this form, first the form is entitled "Application -for Texas Driver's License." - -Mrs. PAINE. May I interrupt? - -(Whereupon, at 12:45 o'clock the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -Transcriber's Notes: - - -Punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant -preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed. - -Misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be -due to mispronunciations were not changed. - -Some simple typographical errors were corrected. - -Inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained. - -Ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained. - -Occasional uses of "Mr." for "Mrs." and of "Mrs." for "Mr." corrected. - -Dubious repeated words, (e.g., "What took place by way of of -conversation?") retained. - -Several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied. - -Occasional periods that should be question marks not changed. - -Occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be -periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at -the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at -the beginning of a line). Some commas and semi-colons were printed so -faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and -corrected, but some almost certainly remain. - -The Index and illustrated Exhibits volumes of this series may not be -available at Project Gutenberg. - -Page 2: Missing opening quotation mark: the fund for the Russian-born -widow had reached $76,000." - -Page 3: "No, I have no recollection of anything that she said?" likely -should end with a period. Punctuation errors like this occur elsewhere -and have not been changed. - -Page 152: "RYW" may be a misprint for "RWY". - -Page 224: "Mr. Ball. It is west of of your house?" repeats "of". - -Page 229: 'Mr. Ball. That is about where you were, a "Z" when he -entered the door' should be 'at "Z"'. - -Page 262: "The Chairman. Mr. Whaley, will you wait outside...." -was printed as "Mr. Chairman...." and has been changed here for -consistency, to make searches more reliable. - -Page 286: Added missing period between "m" and "?": and that is p.m.? - -Page 320: "you have to go the meetings" may be missing "to" after "go". - -Page 320: "She said the thought" probably should be "She said they -thought". - -Page 341: "in the early party of September" probably should be "part". - -Page 363: "a bruise or contusion or ecchymosis" was misprinted as -"eccmymosis"; spelled correctly earlier on the same page. - -Page 364 and elsewhere: "Mr. Specter" misprinted five times as "Mr. -Spector"; corrected here. - -Page 375: "its jacket appears to me to be intact" misprinted as "in -tact"; corrected here. - -Page 383: "exit would labeled B, Exhibit 388" probably should be "exit -wound". - -Page 388: "Mr. Paine. That was in Dallas?" should end with a period, -not with a question mark. - -Page 481: "Does your interpretation" misprinted as "Does you -interpretation"; corrected here. - - - - - - - - -End of the Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (2 of 26): Hearings -Vol. II (of 15), by The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - -*** END OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION - HEARINGS V2 *** - -***** This file should be named 44002.txt or 44002.zip ***** -This and all associated files of various formats will be found in: - http://www.gutenberg.org/4/4/0/0/44002/ - -Produced by Curtis Weyant, Charlene Taylor, Charlie Howard, -and the Online Distributed Proofreading Team at -http://www.pgdp.net. 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