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diff --git a/44002-0.txt b/44002-0.txt new file mode 100644 index 0000000..6f3ea46 --- /dev/null +++ b/44002-0.txt @@ -0,0 +1,50815 @@ +*** START OF THE PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK 44002 *** + + INVESTIGATION OF + THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY + + HEARINGS + Before the President's Commission + on the Assassination + of President Kennedy + +PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, an Executive order creating a +Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating +to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the +subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and +S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon +the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine +witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas + +_Volume_ II + + +UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE + +WASHINGTON, D.C. + + +U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964 + +For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. +Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402 + + + + + PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION + ON THE + ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY + + + CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_ + + SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL + SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER + REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS + REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD + MR. ALLEN W. DULLES + MR. JOHN J. McCLOY + + + J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_ + + + _Assistant Counsel_ + + FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS + JOSEPH A. BALL + DAVID W. BELIN + WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr. + MELVIN ARON EISENBERG + BURT W. GRIFFIN + LEON D. HUBERT, Jr. + ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr. + WESLEY J. LIEBELER + NORMAN REDLICH + W. DAVID SLAWSON + ARLEN SPECTER + SAMUEL A. STERN + HOWARD P. WILLENS[A] + +[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the +Department of Justice. + + + _Staff Members_ + + PHILLIP BARSON + EDWARD A. CONROY + JOHN HART ELY + ALFRED GOLDBERG + MURRAY J. LAULICHT + ARTHUR MARMOR + RICHARD M. MOSK + JOHN J. O'BRIEN + STUART POLLAK + ALFREDDA SCOBEY + CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr. + + +Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found +in the Commission's _Report_. + + + + +Preface + + +The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume II: +James Herbert Martin, who acted for a brief period as the business +manager of Mrs. Marina Oswald; Mark Lane, a New York attorney; William +Robert Greer, who was driving the President's car at the time of the +assassination; Roy H. Kellerman, a Secret Service agent who sat to the +right of Greer; Clinton J. Hill, a Secret Service agent who was in +the car behind the President's car; Rufus Wayne Youngblood, a Secret +Service agent who rode in the car with then Vice President Johnson; +Robert Hill Jackson, a newspaper photographer who rode in a car at the +end of the motorcade; Arnold Louis Rowland, James Richard Worrell, Jr., +and Amos Lee Euins, who were present at the assassination scene; Buell +Wesley Frazier, who drove Lee Harvey Oswald home on the evening of +November 21, and back to work on the morning of November 22; Linnie Mae +Randle, Buell Wesley Frazier's sister; Cortlandt Cunningham, a firearms +identification expert with the Federal Bureau of Investigation; +William Wayne Whaley, a taxicab driver, and Cecil J. McWatters, a +busdriver, who testified concerning Oswald's movements following the +assassination; Mrs. Katherine Ford, Declan P. Ford, and Peter Paul +Gregory, acquaintances of Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife; Comdr. James +J. Humes, Comdr. J. Thornton Boswell, and Lt. Col. Pierre A. Finck, +who performed the autopsy on the President at Bethesda Naval Hospital; +and Michael R. Paine and Ruth Hyde Paine, acquaintances of Lee Harvey +Oswald and his wife. + + + + +Contents + + Page + Preface v + + Testimony of-- + James Herber Martin (resumed) 1 + Mark Lane 32 + Roy H. Kellerman 61 + William Robert Greer 112 + Clinton J. Hill 132 + Rufus Wayne Youngblood 144 + Robert Hill Jackson 155 + Arnold Louis Rowland 165 + James Richard Worrell, Jr 190 + Amos Lee Euins 201 + Buell Wesley Frazier 210 + Linnie Mae Randle 245 + Cortlandt Cunningham 251 + William Wayne Whaley 253, 292 + Cecil J. McWatters 262 + Katherine Ford 295 + Declan P. Ford 322 + Peter Paul Gregory 337 + James J. Humes 348 + J. Thornton Boswell 376 + Pierre A. Finck 377 + Michael R. Paine 384 + Ruth Hyde Paine 430 + + +COMMISSION EXHIBITS INTRODUCED + + Exhibit No.: Page + 328 1 + 329 2 + 330 2 + 331 15 + 332 22 + 333 29 + 334 38 + 335 38 + 336 38 + 337 38 + 338 38 + 339 38 + 340 38 + 341 38 + 342 38 + 343 54 + 344 64 + 345 64 + 346 65 + 347 72 + 348 72 + 349 85 + 350 86 + 351 92 + 352 95 + 353 95 + 354 155 + 355 155 + 356 189 + 357 189 + 358 189 + 359 198 + 360 198 + 361 198 + 362 198 + 365 210 + 366 210 + 367 210 + 368 257 + 369 257 + 370 261 + 371 257 + 372 268 + 373 273 + 374 274 + 375 274 + 376 275 + 377 279 + 378 282 + 379 286 + 380 286 + 381-A 287 + 382 292 + 383-A 292 + 384 340 + 385 353 + 386 353 + 387 353 + 388 353 + 389 353 + 390 353 + 391 359 + 392 362 + 393 365 + 394 365 + 395 365 + 396 367 + 397 374 + 398 374 + 399 374 + 400 380 + 401 445 + 402 455 + 403 477 + 404 479 + 404-A 479 + 405 480 + 406 480 + 407 483 + 408 483 + 408-A 483 + 409 490 + 409-A 490 + 409-B 490 + 410 494 + 411 496 + 412 496 + 413 496 + 414 496 + 415 498 + 416 498 + 417 498 + 418 498 + 419 500 + 420 501 + 421 501 + 422 502 + 423 502 + 424 502 + + + + +Hearings Before the President's Commission + +on the + +Assassination of President Kennedy + + + + +_Thursday, February 27, 1964--Afternoon Session_ + +TESTIMONY OF JAMES HERBERT MARTIN RESUMED + + +The President's Commission reconvened at 3 p.m. + +Mr. DULLES. Gentlemen, the Commission will come to order. + +Are you ready to continue the testimony, Mr. Martin? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Will you carry forward, Mr. Redlich? + +Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I would like to hand you a group of newspaper +clippings which have not as yet been introduced in evidence and I would +ask you to look through them and to pick out any which you feel create +an image of Mrs. Marina Oswald which you feel does not conform to the +reality of her personality, as you know it, and ask you in regard to +each one to tell us in what respect the facts as reported in each of +these clippings do not conform to the real person as you know her. + +Mr. DULLES. I assume we can avoid repetition, can't we? + +Mr. REDLICH. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. Incidents here have been touched on in other papers and we +don't need to touch them again. + +Mr. REDLICH. Yes, Mr. Chairman. + +During the intermission we have gone through all of the newspaper +clippings and eliminated the duplicate stories and hope to eliminate +duplicate facts as we go along. + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, this one is inaccurate that it doesn't have anything +to do with her image, so to speak. It says she spent Christmas---- + +Mr. REDLICH. For the sake of the record if we are going to have comment +on them I would like to have them introduced as evidence because the +record wouldn't state what they are about. + +Are you going to make comment? + +Mr. MARTIN. Do you want me to? + +Mr. REDLICH. If you are going to make comment about it, if you feel +there is some inaccuracy here then I would like to introduce that in +evidence, since apparently you are. + +Mr. MARTIN. It is inaccurate as far as the date in the article is +concerned. + +Mr. REDLICH. The witness has handed to us a newspaper story which we +have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 328. + +Mr. DULLES. Could we have the inaccuracy mentioned here? + +Mr. REDLICH. Yes, the headline of which is "Mrs. Oswald Will Bare Life +of Mate" and I request it be admitted in evidence. + +Mr. DULLES. Any objection? + +Mr. LEECH. No. + +Mr. DULLES. It will be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 328 for +identification and received in evidence.) + +Mr. REDLICH. I show you Commission Exhibit No. 328 and ask you if there +are any inaccuracies in that statement. + +Mr. MARTIN. "Mrs. Oswald and Her Children Now Make Their Home at an +Undisclosed Hotel" which is inaccurate--"and it was in that motel room, +somewhere in the Dallas-Fort Worth area that the youngest Oswald child +spent her first Christmas. There was a tree, toys and even a visit from +Mrs. Oswald's brother who lives 30 miles to the north in Denton, Tex." + +That was the inaccuracy that she spent Christmas not in a motel but in +our home. + +Mr. DULLES. That is about from 3 o'clock in the afternoon as I recall +until 7:30 in the evening. + +Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; that was Thanksgiving. + +Mr. DULLES. That was Thanksgiving. Spent the whole day of Christmas in +your home? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, she lived there. She was at our home 24 hours a day. + +This one-- + +Mr. REDLICH. The witness has produced before the Commission a newspaper +story which we have labeled as Commission Exhibit No. 329, the headline +of which reads, "Money Gifts to Tippit's Near $200,000 Mark." + +Mr. Chairman, I request that Commission Exhibit No. 329 be admitted in +evidence. + +Mr. DULLES. Any objection? + +Mr. LEECH. No. + +Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 329 for +identification and received in evidence.) + +Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I hand you Exhibit No. 329 and ask you if it +is inaccurate in any respect. + +Mr. MARTIN. The article states that Mrs. Shirley Williamson, a Fort +Worth housewife, who felt compassion for the widow, Mrs. Oswald, and +the two babies said the fund for the Russian-born widow had reached +$76,000." + +The fund that Mrs. Williamson collected amounted to some $2,600. That +was her total. That is the inaccuracy there. + +Mr. DULLES. Is she referring to the funds she collected or the whole +collections? + +Mr. MARTIN. Her funds. This has come up numerous times. We even called +her about it one time. She had given out press releases that she had +collected personally, I think, in excess of $8,000, whereas what she +was doing was adding what she had collected to what had already been +sent to Marina, and saying that she was holding that money. + +Mr. DULLES. But even that total is exaggerated, is it not? + +Mr. MARTIN. At that time, yes. + +Mr. DULLES. The total collections? + +Mr. MARTIN. At that time, yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, this article also makes reference to the fund +on behalf of the wife of Officer Tippit with which, of course, you have +no connection. + +I would like to ask you, however, whether at the time you extended the +offer to Marina Oswald to live in your home you were aware of the fact +that there were funds being raised for Officer Tippit's wife. + +Mr. MARTIN. I was undoubtedly aware of it but I don't recall any +conscious knowledge of it or thinking of it. + +Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall whether you were aware at the time that +there were any funds coming in on behalf of Mrs. Oswald? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. You were not aware? + +Mr. MARTIN. Not aware, no. + +Mr. REDLICH. The witness has offered to, has presented to, the +Commission a newspaper story appearing in the Buffalo Evening News, +December 7, 1963, headline of which reads, "Oswald's Widow Reported +Hoping to be U.S. Citizen." + +This story has been identified as Commission Exhibit No. 330 and I ask +that it be introduced in evidence. + +Mr. DULLES. Any objection? + +Mr. LEECH. None. + +Mr. DULLES. Accepted. + +(The newspaper article referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. +330 for identification and received in evidence.) + +Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I show you Commission's Exhibit No. 330 +and ask you if it is inaccurate in any respect to the best of your +knowledge? + +Mr. MARTIN. In the second paragraph it says, "Mrs. Oswald, 23," which +is inaccurate--"Russian-born Mother of Three--" + +Mr. REDLICH. Will you state the inaccuracy? + +Mr. MARTIN. The age is inaccurate. She is 22, "Russian-born Mother of +Three" that is inaccurate. She is the mother of two, "burst into tears +when she learned at least $7,700 had been sent to her by sympathetic +Americans." + +There was no burst of tears. + +Mr. REDLICH. Will you tell the Commission what the reaction was? + +Mr. MARTIN. I would say of happiness rather than--she was glad that +that was there, which is normal. + +Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall anything she told you? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. This was December 7. No, I have no recollection of +anything that she said? + +Mr. DULLES. Didn't you testify before, maybe it is with regard to +another or similar clipping, that she had some reference to the silly +Americans who were giving this money? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, it was a comment she had made at sometime or another. +I don't know whether it was during this particular thing or not. I +think it was further on. + +Mr. DULLES. On a similar occasion? + +Mr. MARTIN. A little later date, yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, you have commented on the respects in which +the newspaper clippings were at variance with the facts about Marina +Oswald as you knew them. + +Are there any other facts which perhaps were not reflected in these +clippings but which you might be aware of in respect to which the +public image of Marina Oswald differed from the true person that you +knew on the basis of your contact with her? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. Of course, she is not the least bit frugal. She spends +money quite freely, which it is her money to spend, but it won't last +very long at the rate it is going. + +Mr. REDLICH. In connection with that did Marina Oswald ever discuss +with you the financial difficulties she may have encountered while she +was married to Lee Oswald? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. She remarked one time that she had always wished for +$500 just to do with as she wanted. She also mentioned that the small +amount of money that it took them to live upon. She said it ran between +$130 and $135 a month. + +Representative FORD. Did she complain about this limited amount? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. I asked her how she could live on that little and she +said well, all they had was rent and food, and occasionally she would +get a dress or get a pair of shoes. She said that she didn't object to +it. + +Representative FORD. But when more money became available she found +ways and means of spending it? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Well, she mentioned one time to me that--I told her +she was spending too much money, and she said, "Well, when it is all +gone I will go to work." That is---- + +Mr. DULLES. That is a little Russian, may I say for the record. + +Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, this Commission has recovered information to +the effect that the public announcements which you made concerning the +amount of funds which had been collected on Marina Oswald's behalf +actually reflected figures that were less than the amount which had +actually been collected on her behalf. + +Without getting into specific figures at this time, are these reports +correct in your opinion? + +Mr. MARTIN. Which report? + +Mr. REDLICH. The report---- + +Mr. MARTIN. Oh, yes, we were obtaining a smaller figure, that is true. + +Mr. REDLICH. That is true. Did you consult with Marina Oswald on this +policy on reporting to the press a lesser figure than had actually been +collected? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. What was your reason for doing it? + +Mr. MARTIN. To--well, the money she had collected was considerable, and +most people in their life don't accumulate that much money in their +entire lifetime. + +What we were trying to do for her was to build enough of a--enough +capital to furnish her from the interest a steady income. And by +keeping the figure down figured it would increase. + +Mr. REDLICH. I don't want to put words in your mouth. Could you be a +little more specific about your reason? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, so people would keep contributing to her cause. + +Mr. REDLICH. And she was in accord with this policy of keeping the +public amount at a low figure so that people would contribute to her +cause? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. I would like to revert to a point that you made this +morning to clear up the record. You said that you left your job at the +Six Flags Inn Motel because of your obligations to Marina Oswald. Did +you leave the job voluntarily or were you fired? + +Mr. MARTIN. I left voluntarily. I actually left on the 15th of +December, and I had a week's vacation coming, they gave me that which +paid me to the 1st of January. + +Mr. REDLICH. When you met Mrs. Oswald in late November and in your +conversations with her at that time, did she discuss with you the fact +of her husband's trip to Mexico? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Are you now---- + +Mr. MARTIN. She did at a later date, sometime in January before she +went to the Commission. + +Mr. REDLICH. When did you first learn of Lee Oswald's trip to Mexico? + +Mr. MARTIN. I guess it was from newspaper accounts. + +Mr. REDLICH. When you read it in the newspapers did you ask Marina +about it? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. What prompted you to discuss with Marina in January the +question of her knowledge about it? + +Mr. MARTIN. Let's see--she told me when the FBI was questioning her +one day, she told me that they had information that he had attempted +suicide, and that particular day she didn't want to see the FBI at all, +and she was a little bit unhappy with them and I just asked her what +else did she learn. + +Mr. REDLICH. Who else was present at this conversation? + +Mr. MARTIN. I don't think anybody. + +Mr. REDLICH. Just you and Mrs. Oswald? + +Mr. DULLES. Who was this who had attempted suicide, I didn't catch that? + +Mr. MARTIN. Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. DULLES. At what time? + +Mr. MARTIN. That was in Russia sometime before, I think before he met +her. + +Mr. DULLES. And she said she had heard this from the FBI or the FBI had +asked her about it? + +Mr. MARTIN. The FBI had read, I think, in his manuscript that he had +attempted suicide. + +Mr. DULLES. And they asked her about it? + +Mr. MARTIN. She didn't know that. Yes. And at that time I asked her if +she learned anything else, and she said no, but that they still didn't +know that she knew that he had gone to Mexico, and at that time we +were talking about the Commission, that general area of time, and I +mentioned to be sure to tell the truth to the Commission. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did you ask her why she had not revealed knowledge of her +trip--of her knowledge of Lee Oswald's trip to Mexico? + +Mr. MARTIN. I can't recall exactly whether I did or not. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did you ask her? + +Mr. MARTIN. I have a recollection but I have no idea what was said. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did you and she discuss the purpose of Lee Oswald's trip +to Mexico? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Do you say you advised her to tell this Commission about +that trip to Mexico? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. When you were here and she testified did you inquire of +her as to whether in fact she did tell this Commission about the trip +to Mexico? + +Mr. MARTIN. I inquired of John Thorne and he said that she had. + +Mr. REDLICH. But in connection with the Nixon incident, you indicated +earlier in your testimony that you had not inquired of her as to +whether she had told this Commission about the Nixon incident. + +Mr. MARTIN. Right. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did you think that the Nixon incident was of less +importance than the Mexican trip? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, I didn't quite believe the Nixon incident. + +Mr. REDLICH. Do you believe it now? + +Mr. MARTIN. I don't know. I don't know if there is any corroboration +other than her say so. + +Mr. REDLICH. It was because you had doubts about the actual existence +of the incident that you didn't pursue with her the question as to +whether she should tell this Commission about it? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I didn't tell her not to say anything about it. I +didn't mention it specifically at all. The only thing I told her to do +was to tell the Commission the truth in all cases. + +Mr. REDLICH. At the conclusion of each day's testimony while she was +here before this Commission did you discuss the nature of her testimony +with her? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. I asked her how the day went. And she would tell me, +"fine," and that was the end of it. + +Mr. REDLICH. But you did inquire specifically about the Mexico trip? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Because I knew she lied about that to the FBI. + +Mr. REDLICH. Are there any other incidents you knew she had lied about +to the FBI? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. That is the only one? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did you and Marina Oswald ever discuss the question of her +husband's rifle practice? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. The only time I recall that ever being asked of her was +at the press conference here in Washington, and I never specifically +asked her at all, whether he practiced. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did you ever discuss with her the question of Lee Oswald's +ownership of a rifle? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. When you discussed the General Walker incident with her, +did you discuss his ownership of a rifle? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. The only thing, I think about the only thing I asked +her about that was how he got there and how he got back. + +Mr. REDLICH. What did she say? + +Mr. MARTIN. She said he walked and took the bus. + +Mr. REDLICH. And you didn't ask her what weapon he had shot at General +Walker with? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. That was in the newspaper, it was a rifle. And there +were many things I didn't ask about because I was previously informed +through the news or I thought I was anyway. + +Mr. REDLICH. You specifically, with regard to the rifle, you are +telling this Commission that you had no conversations with Marina +Oswald concerning her husband's practice with the rifle either in +Dallas or in New Orleans. + +Mr. MARTIN. Let's see--I think I did discuss with her one time at the +rifle range out in Grand Prairie was it, wherever it was, that the +owner had seen Lee Harvey Oswald out there with a rifle, and he drove +up in a car. + +Mr. REDLICH. Who is "they"? + +Mr. MARTIN. The owner of the rifle range. + +Mr. REDLICH. You say they drove up in a car? + +Mr. MARTIN. He drove up in a car. + +Mr. REDLICH. The owner of the rifle range? + +Mr. MARTIN. No; Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. REDLICH. Drove to the rifle range in a car? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. And---- + +Mr. DULLES. Did he drive himself? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, this is a report from the rifle range owner who said +he had seen Lee Harvey Oswald there on numerous occasions practicing, +and that he drove up in a car by himself. He always came by himself, +and I did ask her if he could drive and she said no, definitely. + +Mr. REDLICH. Where did you read this report or where did you hear about +it? + +Mr. MARTIN. It was right after the start there, in the Dallas papers. + +Mr. REDLICH. This was something you read. This was not a personal +conversation you had with the owner of the rifle range? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, it was a newspaper account. + +Mr. REDLICH. Were there any other conversations you had with Mrs. +Oswald concerning rifle practice? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did you have any conversations with her concerning Lee +Oswald's ability as a rifleman? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did Mrs. Oswald ever discuss with you the fears that she +claims to have had that Lee Oswald would attempt to kill a public +figure as a result specifically of the Walker incident? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, other than when she told me that she told him that +if he tried anything similar to the Walker incident she would have +him arrested. And she never mentioned to me a particular figure that +he would do anything like that. She evidently had it though or she +wouldn't have made the threat to him. + +Mr. REDLICH. Other than the Nixon incident, and the Walker incident, +Mrs. Oswald never related to you any other specific incident with +regard to the attempt to take the life of anyone? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Representative FORD. Did Mrs. Oswald, Marina, ever indicate to you +her feeling toward guns; did she ever indicate any apprehension about +having one in the house? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Representative FORD. Related to rifles, pistols? + +Mr. MARTIN. I have a 22 rifle in the house, for instance. Of course, +she may never have seen it. But I don't believe the question ever came +up at all. + +Representative FORD. She never indicated to you that she had told Lee +Harvey Oswald that she was apprehensive about his use of a gun or his +having a gun in the household? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I would like to ask you whether Mrs. Oswald +ever discussed with you any aspects of the life of Marina Oswald and +Lee Harvey Oswald while they were in Russia. + +Mr. MARTIN. Let's see now--she mentioned one time to both my wife and +I that Lee had gone to Moscow, I believe, and an old boy friend called +her up and she went out with him while Lee was gone. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did she indicate to you at that time the purpose of Lee's +trip to Moscow? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did she indicate to you whether she had told Lee about her +going out with this old boy friend? + +Mr. MARTIN. She said she did tell him. + +Mr. REDLICH. By the way, would you recall when Lee made this trip to +Moscow? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't think she mentioned the date at all. She may +have but I don't recall. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did she indicate in connection with this trip of Lee +Oswald to Moscow that she herself subsequently went to Moscow while he +was there? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. I think she said he was gone one day or one night and +came back the next day. + +Mr. REDLICH. So that on the basis of your recollection, if there was a +trip in which Lee Oswald went to Moscow and she joined him there this +was a different trip from the one you are talking about? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Is that right? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Just to make sure of this you say to the best of your +recollection she said he went there for one day and returned? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Can you think of any other aspects of their life in the +Soviet Union that Marina discussed with you. + +Mr. MARTIN. He used to like her aunt. Now, which aunt I don't know. +Yes, I do. It is the aunt that is working as a secretary and her +husband is on a pension. She has an aunt and an uncle by blood. + +Now, the aunt's husband is on a pension, and the uncle's--The uncle is +a lieutenant colonel in the Soviet Army. + +Mr. REDLICH. Now, the aunt and uncle that you say she liked very much, +is this the aunt and uncle with whom she was living at the time she met +Lee Oswald or is this a different aunt and uncle? + +Mr. MARTIN. That was all very--always confusing to me because she +wouldn't call the spouse of the aunt, for instance, her uncle, and I +couldn't tell all the time which party she was talking about. + +Mr. DULLES. These were both relatives to Marina, therefore, they were +not married. + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, no; they were not married to each other. + +Mr. DULLES. That is what I mean, yes. + +Mr. MARTIN. There were two couples, and the aunt in one couple and the +uncle in the other couple. But she didn't refer to the opposite spouse +as an aunt and uncle. + +Mr. REDLICH. Does the name Berlov refresh your recollection any? + +Mr. MARTIN. Berlov? + +Representative FORD. Did Marina ever indicate to you anything about her +education, what school she attended? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, just the school of pharmacy, and she compared her grade +school or our grade school, which is, I guess similar to our grade +school in high school or junior high, anyway. + +Representative FORD. She only referred to the pharmacy training? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Representative FORD. As any special training she received? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Representative FORD. But she did discuss that with you? + +Mr. MARTIN. Not at length. Just stated the fact that she had finished +pharmacy school. + +Representative FORD. But she didn't discuss any other training or +schooling of a special nature. + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Representative FORD. Did she ever discuss any special training that Lee +might have had while he was in Russia? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Representative FORD. Did she ever discuss Lee's employment while he was +in Russia? + +Mr. MARTIN. Only that he was unhappy where he was working. + +Representative FORD. Did she tell you where he worked, the kind of work +he was doing? + +Mr. MARTIN. I don't know, I have an idea it was in a factory of some +kind, whether she told me that or whether it was an assumption, I don't +know. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did she ever discuss their apartment, their living +quarters in Minsk? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, she said she had a one-room apartment, and had a +balcony on it, and that as soon as the baby was born they were going to +move to a larger one. I questioned her about that because I understand +it is quite difficult to get more than a one-room apartment in Russia +and she said, well, Lee was an American and he could get things the +Russians couldn't get. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did Mrs. Oswald give you the impression that in general +she and Lee Oswald had better treatment than other Russians? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, and actually her past life even before she met Lee +seemed a little bit strange to me, going to the opera, taking vacations +and holidays as she says. I understand it is quite expensive to go to +the opera, and she was making, what did she say, 45 rubles a month, and +she would take a girl friend with her when she went to the opera. + +Now, how much that cost, I don't know. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did you ever question her about her financial situation in +Russia? + +Mr. MARTIN. I asked her how she could afford it and she said she got +by. She was living at home or with her aunt and uncle. So I imagine +their expenses there weren't high. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did she mention any extra income which Lee Harvey Oswald +may have had apart from his job? + +Mr. MARTIN. No; I asked her about that specifically because I had heard +an account that he was supposed to be getting Western Union money +orders, and asked her about that. She didn't know what a Western Union +money order was, for one thing, so I reworded the question and asked if +he was getting money from anyone else other than where he was working, +and she said no. + +Mr. REDLICH. This was true of this life in the Soviet Union? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, apparently. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever discuss with you the uncle with whom she +lived who was apparently a lieutenant colonel in the Soviet army? + +Mr. MARTIN. No; except she didn't like him. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did she say why? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. She preferred her aunt, who has the husband on the +pension. + +Mr. REDLICH. Can you search your memory at this point and tell this +Commission anything that you have not yet told us about Marina's +conversations with you concerning her life in the Soviet Union? + +Mr. MARTIN. Her aunt used to bring food and liquor home after parties +had at the government building where she was working. Other than +talking about--she pulled one tooth out before she came to the United +States. A tooth was either crooked or broken and she pulled the tooth +out. That caused the other one to twist. I don't know what that was. + +Representative FORD. Did Marina ever indicate to you while she was in +the Soviet Union that she drank beer, wine, liquor? + +Mr. MARTIN. Vodka. + +Representative FORD. When she came to the United States, you could +observe it, did she drink beer, wine, liquor of any kind? + +Mr. MARTIN. She drank, I guess she drank a bottle of beer every day, +and occasionally she would drink some vodka. + +Representative FORD. But not a heavy drinker? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, have you ever been curious about how Mrs. +Oswald was ever able to leave the Soviet Union? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, I wasn't, until Don Levine brought up the subject. Of +course, I have no idea what it entails to get into Russia or out of it +as far as that is concerned. + +But according to Mr. Levine, it is extremely difficult for people to +get out of Russia, especially when they have had the training that +Marina has had. + +Mr. REDLICH. By training you mean what? + +Mr. MARTIN. Pharmacy. He said they spent quite a bit of money on her +training, and he doesn't understand how she got out of Russia on such +short notice. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did you ever ask this question of Marina Oswald? + +Mr. MARTIN. She said that Lee arranged it, and that is all she would +say. + +Mr. REDLICH. She never discussed any other aspect of her departure from +the Soviet Union? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. Let's see, they were in Moscow, she waited a couple +of days while he was, how did she put it, collecting money or getting +money together to come over to the States. I have forgotten the name +of the hotel they stayed in. She even remarked they had pancakes every +morning and she didn't like pancakes. + +Mr. REDLICH. In terms of her official negotiations to leave the Soviet +Union, you asked her nothing other than the question that I have +already discussed with you? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, she said that Lee arranged everything. + +Mr. REDLICH. I would like to ask you a few questions now about some of +the individuals that Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald knew in Fort Worth +and Dallas, and ask you in each case whether Marina Oswald discussed +any of these individuals with you. + +The first is George Bouhe. + +Mr. MARTIN. I know the name but I don't think Marina has ever mentioned +him; Katya Ford has though. + +Mr. REDLICH. Are you personally acquainted with George Bouhe? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us what Katya Ford has told you about Mr. +Bouhe? + +Mr. MARTIN. It was relating to Marina--I think Katya Ford and Bouhe are +friends, and they had been discussing Marina all the time she was in +seclusion, and wondering what had happened to her, where she was. Now +this was after the news was out where she was. + +Mr. REDLICH. Are you acquainted with---- + +Mr. DULLES. Excuse me, by "in seclusion", you mean at the time she was +with you in your house? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, and the press didn't know where she was. + +Mr. DULLES. I see. + +Mr. REDLICH. Are you acquainted with George De Mohrenschildt or his +wife Jean De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever discussed either George or Jean De +Mohrenschildt with Marina Oswald? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever discussed George and Jean De Mohrenschildt +with anyone else? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. DULLES. Did you ever hear the name mentioned before? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. I think I would remember that name. + +Mr. REDLICH. Are you personally acquainted with Peter Gregory? + +Mr. MARTIN. I met him once, maybe twice, at the Inn. He was +interpreting for Marina, for the Secret Service, I believe, before Lee +Gopadze got there. + +Mr. REDLICH. Do you know who he is? + +Mr. MARTIN. I understand he is a geologist, and he also teaches Russian. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever discuss either Peter Gregory or Paul +Gregory with you? + +Mr. MARTIN. She mentioned--I don't know which one. + +Mr. REDLICH. One is the father and one is a son. + +Mr. MARTIN. I think it is the older gentleman that I met. She mentioned +that she liked him. + +Mr. REDLICH. The older gentleman? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. And I think she corresponded with him. I know she +corresponded with him. + +Mr. REDLICH. Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Gregory's son? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever met him? + +Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge. + +Mr. REDLICH. You have had no conversations with anyone else about him? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. We were--I think John Thorne and I were talking about +at sometime we may need an interpreter, and I mentioned his name in +that instance. + +Mr. REDLICH. That would be the elder Mr. Gregory? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. But nothing on Paul Gregory. + +Mr. REDLICH. Nothing on Paul Gregory? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Are you aware of the fact that Paul Gregory is a student +at the University of Oklahoma? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever discuss with you the fact that she had +helped tutor the son of Peter Gregory? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Are you familiar with--strike that. Do you have any +personal acquaintanceship with Gary Taylor? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever heard the name of Gary Taylor? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Marina Oswald has never discussed that name with you? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Do you know Mrs. Elena Hall? + +Mr. MARTIN. Elena Hall? No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Has Marina ever discussed her with you? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. The name John R. Hall, who is the husband of Mrs. Elena +Hall? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, it sounded a little familiar but I can't place anything +on it. + +Mr. REDLICH. Do you know Mrs. Katherine Ford? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us how you came to know her? + +Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, she had contacted Marina a couple of times by +letter, and---- + +Representative FORD. While she was staying at your home? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes--well, she sent the letter to Grand Prairie, the +letters, Christmas cards, and I think two letters after that. So I +called her and Marina wanted to, expressed a desire to, talk to her. So +I called her and Marina talked to her on the phone. I think every time +she talked to her she talked nearly an hour. + +Representative FORD. In Russian or in English? + +Mr. MARTIN. In Russian. + +Mr. DULLES. Was it on the telephone? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever tell you the gist of these conversations? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever relate to you whether she had ever lived +in Mrs. Ford's home? + +Mr. MARTIN. I believe she had for a very short time. + +Mr. REDLICH. You mean Marina related this to you? + +Mr. MARTIN. I think Mrs. Ford told me that. + +Mr. REDLICH. How did you get this knowledge, from Marina or from Mrs. +Ford? Did you ever discuss this with Marina? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. I know Marina likes her home, I mean likes the house +that they live in. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did you ever ask Marina how it came about that she was +separated from her husband and living at the home of Mrs. Ford? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did any of Marina's other Russian-speaking friends in the +Dallas-Fort Worth area write letters to her while she was at your home? + +Mr. MARTIN. Mrs. Paine wrote at least once a week and---- + +Mr. DULLES. Once a week? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Marina did not answer, didn't answer any of the +letters and didn't call her. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did Mrs. Paine attempt to reach Marina by phone? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, until I had my telephone number changed and then she +couldn't find the phone number so she came over to the house. + +Mr. REDLICH. What happened when she came to the house? + +Mr. MARTIN. Nothing, I let her in the house and Marina and the children +were back in the den and the Secret Service men went back into the den, +and I don't believe she knew that she was there. + +Mr. DULLES. Was the change in number, did it have anything to do with +Marina as objecting to receiving the calls? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. That was strictly because the press pressure. + +Mr. DULLES. The presence of the press? + +Mr. REDLICH. I would like to go back to this incident when Mrs. Paine +came to see Marina. You say Marina did not know that Mrs. Paine was +there? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, she knew it. + +Mr. REDLICH. She knew that Mrs. Paine was there? + +Mr. MARTIN. Mrs. Paine didn't know that Marina was there. + +Mr. REDLICH. But Marina knew that Mrs. Paine was there? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina see Mrs. Paine at that time? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did you talk to Marina at that time? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, before and after. + +Mr. REDLICH. At the time Mrs. Paine was there did you personally tell +Marina that Mrs. Paine wanted to see her? + +Mr. MARTIN. I told her before Mrs. Paine came in the door that Mrs. +Paine was here, and she said she didn't want to see her. She stayed in +the den, and Mrs. Paine was in the living room. + +Mr. REDLICH. Then did you convey this message to Mrs. Paine yourself? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Who did? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, she came with the intention or for the purpose of +bringing a package to Marina that she had received in the mail, and I +don't believe she knew that Marina was living there. I told her at that +time that because of security that Marina wasn't seeing anyone but I +don't believe she knew that Marina was at that address until later. + +Mr. REDLICH. When Mrs. Paine called your home prior to the change of +phone, did you speak to Mrs. Paine? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, my wife did. + +Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall the nature of the conversations between your +wife and Mrs. Paine as reported to you? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, let's see, she called and asked for Marina or asked +to get in touch with Marina. My wife gave me the number and I guess I +called her back. + +Mr. REDLICH. You called Mrs. Paine back? + +Mr. MARTIN. A day or two later, yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. What did you say to her? + +Mr. MARTIN. I told her that under the present circumstances she just +didn't want to see anybody, and also the security on her didn't permit +her to go out too far. That we could possibly arrange a meeting at some +middle point later on. + +Mr. REDLICH. Was Marina free to see anyone she wanted to see? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. And the reason she didn't see Mrs. Paine was because she +didn't want to see Mrs. Paine? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I asked her several times to call her, at least call +Mrs. Paine and tell her she didn't want to see her, and she just +shrugged her shoulders and said she didn't want to talk to her. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever tell you why she didn't want to talk to +her? + +Mr. MARTIN. She said something about Mrs. Paine talking too much, and +she didn't like Mrs. Paine's children. + +Mr. REDLICH. Were you aware at the time that Marina had lived with Mrs. +Paine? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Were you aware at the time that Mrs. Paine had taken the +Oswald family to New Orleans and had---- + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Gone to New Orleans and brought them back to Irving, Tex.? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, that is why I felt she owed Mrs. Paine something. + +Mr. REDLICH. What was Marina's attitude toward your comments? + +Mr. MARTIN. She just didn't want to talk to her. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did you yourself ever meet Mrs. Paine? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Would you describe that meeting? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, the first time I met her was we went over to the +Paine's house to pick up some of Marina's belongings. + +Mr. REDLICH. Who is "we"? + +Mr. MARTIN. John Thorne and I. + +Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall about when this was? + +Mr. MARTIN. I guess it was about a week after she had moved in, maybe +shorter, maybe sooner than that. There was not much said at all at that +meeting. Then when she came out to the house she talked at length, but +it was---- + +Mr. REDLICH. There is another occasion when you say she came? + +Mr. MARTIN. When she came to my house. + +Mr. REDLICH. That was the same occasion that you referred to earlier +when she came to pick up a package? + +Mr. MARTIN. To deliver a package. + +Mr. REDLICH. To deliver a package, I am sorry. Could you relate what +happened at that time? + +Mr. MARTIN. I was quite distracted by the children. It was rather a +stiff meeting or conversation. + +Representative FORD. This was the meeting at Mrs. Paine's house? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, my house. + +Representative FORD. Your house? + +Mr. MARTIN. Mrs. Paine brought, I think, a package and some food, +cookies, things like that, for Marina, and---- + +Mr. DULLES. Those are from Mrs. Paine to Marina, but the package was a +third---- + +Mr. MARTIN. The package came through the mail. + +Mr. DULLES. That you understand, but the cookies came from Mrs. Paine. + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +I believe she brought some toys for the children. What the toys were, +I don't recall. Her children were running back and forth through the +living room making quite a bit of noise. + +Mr. DULLES. Mrs. Paine's children? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. And I wasn't really paying too much attention to what +she was saying. I was wanting her to leave. I didn't ask her to leave +but I wasn't saying much to foster the conversation. Then she left in, +I guess, 15 minutes. + +Mr. REDLICH. What did Mrs. Paine say to you? + +Mr. MARTIN. Oh, boy---- + +Mr. DULLES. Was she disturbed, I mean was she annoyed, visibly annoyed, +that Marina wouldn't see her. She didn't know Marina was in the house, +I realize that. + +Mr. MARTIN. She didn't know Marina was in the house. I am certain she +didn't. + +Mr. REDLICH. You mean her children were running around the house +though, weren't they? + +Mr. MARTIN. Her children were running in the living room and dining +room. + +Mr. DULLES. But not into the den? + +Mr. MARTIN. But not into the den and kitchen. + +Representative FORD. Do you have a door on the den so you can close the +den off? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. She talked mostly about generalities and she would +like to see Marina to make sure she is well taken care of, and so on. +She was concerned about her. And she came back after that time, she +came back once more. I wasn't there. My wife answered the door and +didn't invite her in. + +Mr. DULLES. How long a trip is it from your house to Mrs. Paine's, +roughly, a few miles? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, a good 20 miles. + +Mr. DULLES. A good 20 miles? + +Mr. MARTIN. Because it is 30 miles out to the Inn, and she lives about +8 or 10 miles toward me from the Inn, so it is about 20 miles. + +Mr. REDLICH. Your wife did not invite Mrs. Paine into the house at that +time? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Was this at Marina's urging? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Mrs. Paine was quite upset at that--that is what Wanda +said, she looked upset at that time. + +Representative FORD. On this occasion, did Mrs. Paine know Marina was +in the house? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't believe so. + +Mr. DULLES. Did she ask where she was, specifically? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. DULLES. She didn't ask? + +Mr. REDLICH. What was the purpose of her visit? + +Mr. MARTIN. I don't believe--let's see, she may have brought something +that day, too. I don't recall whether she did or not. I know right +after that, the Civil Liberties Union got into it. Well, Mark Lane, was +first. + +Mr. REDLICH. You say right after that Mark Lane got into it? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Would you elaborate on that? + +Mr. MARTIN. Mark Lane came to Dallas, and contacted John Thorne and I. +We met him at the Statler and talked to him at lunch, and he expressed +a desire to talk to Marina Oswald so that he could represent her +husband, defend her husband in a hearing, and we told him that we would +relay that information to her. + +So we did, and she said that she didn't want to have any +representation. She didn't want any more---- + +Mr. REDLICH. You mean she didn't want any representation for Lee Oswald? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, she didn't want any more to do about it. + +Representative FORD. Can you recall the date of this visit by Mr. Lane? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Representative FORD. Was it in December or January? + +Mr. MARTIN. It was in January, I believe. + +Mr. REDLICH. And you transmitted Mr. Lane's message to Marina? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, and she said that she didn't want any representation +for Lee. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did you tell her this in English? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, and explained it to her, and at that time she could +understand. + +Mr. DULLES. To your knowledge, did Marina ever meet Mr. Lane? + +Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge, no. + +Mr. REDLICH. And you also related the Ruth Paine, second Ruth Paine, +visit to your home to something which you referred to as the American +Civil Liberties Union business. + +Mr. MARTIN. It was right after--these incidents happened rather +closely. The letter from the Civil Liberties Union--well, first we +received a telephone call from the Civil Liberties Union wanting to see +Marina Oswald. + +Representative FORD. Telephone call from Dallas or New York, or what? + +Mr. MARTIN. From Richardson, the same person who wrote the letter which +you have there. Do you have that? + +Mr. REDLICH. We do have. We are inventorying many of these documents of +which the American Civil Liberties letter is one and we will introduce +it at an appropriate time. + +Mr. MARTIN. Richardson is a suburb of Dallas. This gentleman called, +what was his name? + +Mr. LEECH. I can't remember it. + +Mr. REDLICH. Would it refresh your recollection if I mentioned the name +Olds? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, Greg Olds. He called on the phone and wanted to see +Marina Oswald, wanted to make sure she was being properly represented, +that she knew her rights, and so on and so forth. + +John Thorne talked to him, and told him that he represented Marina +Oswald, and that he was definitely sure that all her rights were being +observed. + +Then I think there was another phone call from them still wanting to +see Marina Oswald, and I talked to Marina and she said well, she would +talk to him. So they arranged a meeting with a third party, I can't +remember his name, who was a minister of some kind, and then Marina +changed her mind and said no, she didn't want to go at all, she didn't +want to talk to any of them. So then they wrote the letter. They wrote +a letter to her in Russian and sent one to me in English, one to John +Thorne in English, and I believe one to the Secret Service and one to +the FBI. + +Mr. LEECH. Do you want to mention about their press releases at this +time? + +Mr. MARTIN. There were a number of press releases at that time also +that she was being held incognito and not able to---- + +Mr. REDLICH. You mean incognito or incommunicado? + +Mr. MARTIN. Incommunicado. + +Representative FORD. Press releases by whom? + +Mr. MARTIN. The Civil Liberties Union, and so they sent this letter to +her and she answered it with a two-page letter in Russian. + +Representative FORD. In Russian? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Do you have a copy of that two-page letter? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. She wrote it, put it in an envelope, put a stamp on it +and I mailed it. I didn't open it or look in it in any way. And that +seemed to be the end of it, but they still persisted they wanted to see +her. + +Mr. REDLICH. And the reason Marina did not see them was entirely her +own volition? + +Mr. MARTIN. Her own. + +Mr. DULLES. She never talked to you about what was in the letter? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, she said she just told them she didn't want to see them. + +Mr. DULLES. In two pages? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; This was quoted, a portion of the letter was +quoted, in the Worker. + +Representative FORD. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that we get, if possible, +a copy of the original of that letter. + +Mr. MARTIN. You probably can get it from Greg Olds. + +Mr. DULLES. Would you make a note of that. I think we should do that. + +That was dated sometime in the middle of January? + +Mr. MARTIN. I believe so. The letter you have--she wadded the letter +up that was written to her in Russian and threw it away, and I got it +back out, and asked her to go ahead and write them a letter so it would +quiet them. So she said she would and she wrote a letter, I think, +that night, so it would be within a couple of days of the date of that +letter, the English copy of which you have. + +Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chairman, if you would like, we could take a 3- or +4-minute recess and I could get the American Civil Liberties Union +letter to Marina Oswald and introduce it at this time for the sake of +clarity in the record. + +Mr. DULLES. Good. It is a good time for a breather. + +(Short recess.) + +The CHAIRMAN. All right, gentlemen, the Commission will be in order. + +You are familiar with, Mr. Dulles, you are familiar with, the hearing +up to date. You go right ahead and preside, if you will. + +Mr. DULLES. Mr. Redlich will you go right ahead with your questions? + +Mr. REDLICH. I believe Congressman Ford, you said you wanted to ask +your questions prior to your leaving. + +Representative FORD. Do you wish to have that letter entered as an +exhibit at this point before I ask several questions? + +Mr. REDLICH. The witness has produced before this Commission a letter +which I now mark Commission Exhibit No. 331 on the Dallas Civil +Liberties Union stationery, addressed to Mr. John Thorne, James Martin, +Mr. Sorrels, Secret Service, Mrs. Lee H. Oswald, and the Federal Bureau +of Investigation. + +I ask that it be introduced in evidence. + +Mr. DULLES. Any objection? + +Mr. LEECH. No. + +Mr. DULLES. It will be introduced. + +(The letter referred to was marked for identification as Commission +Exhibit No. 331 and received in evidence.) + +The CHAIRMAN. Have you seen it? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chief Justice, we have introduced that because +just prior to the recess we were discussing it and Congressman Ford +indicated he had to leave I believe and I wanted to ask some questions. + +The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead. + +Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question on this letter for clarification? +It is my understanding it is your belief that Mrs. Oswald received a +copy of this letter in Russian? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, she received a letter on this letterhead written in +Russian. Now whether it was an exact copy, I don't know. + +Mr. DULLES. About the length of this letter as far as you could tell? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. At about the same time? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, it was the same day. + +Mr. DULLES. That was the letter she crumpled up and put in the +wastepaper basket? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. But you retrieved it from the wastepaper basket, did you +not say? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir, and asked her to answer it. + +Mr. DULLES. Where is that copy that you retrieved from the wastepaper +basket? + +Mr. MARTIN. I don't know. + +Mr. DULLES. Maybe reassigned to the wastepaper basket? + +Mr. MARTIN. It may have been, yes. + +Representative FORD. I believe that was the letter that Mr. Redlich +indicated he would get a copy from the Dallas Chapter of the American +Civil Liberties Union. + +Mr. MARTIN. Her answer is what he wanted to get. + +Mr. REDLICH. I think Congressman Ford is right. We might be able to get +both a copy of the letter and their answer. + +Mr. DULLES. Their statement in this letter is the English of the +Russian translation which they sent to her. I think it would be +adequate, wouldn't it? + +Mr. REDLICH. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. It seems to me it would be adequate for our purposes. + +Mr. REDLICH. We will contact the Dallas Division on that. + +Representative FORD. Marina testified here, and she has said elsewhere, +that based on the facts as she now knows them, she believes that Lee +was guilty of the assassination of President Kennedy. + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Representative FORD. Was that her attitude when you first met her? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, when I first met her, we didn't converse very well at +all. There was lack of communication because of the language barrier, +and I didn't discuss it with her probably until the latter part of +December, although she was speaking fairly good English by the 15th of +December. + +Representative FORD. When you first discussed it with her, what was her +attitude? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, she said she thought he was crazy. + +Representative FORD. But did she indicate when you first discussed the +question of guilt or not being guilty, what was her attitude? + +Mr. MARTIN. She thought he was guilty. + +Representative FORD. The first time you discussed the matter? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Representative FORD. Did she indicate why? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. I asked her why, and she said it was just a feeling. + +Representative FORD. At that point had she---- + +Mr. MARTIN. A woman's feeling. + +Representative FORD. At that point had she been given or shown the +evidence that had been accumulated by various agencies of the Federal +Government? + +Mr. MARTIN. I don't know. I assume she had through the FBI. The FBI +were showing her pictures and numerous things. I was not in on any of +the questioning at all. + +Mr. DULLES. Had she read the papers or had them read to her as far as +you know at that period? + +Mr. MARTIN. Some of them, yes. + +Mr. DULLES. Newspapers, I mean. + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Representative FORD. From that first conversation you had with her +about this matter, the guilt of Lee Harvey Oswald, she has never +changed her mind? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, and I have never heard her say anything other than he +was guilty. + +Representative FORD. Did you ever discuss with Marina the conversation +she had with Lee Harvey Oswald at the Dallas police station the day he +was apprehended or the day following. Or at any time prior to his death? + +Mr. MARTIN. The only time she said anything about it was that he told +her not to worry and to make sure and get the--get June a pair of shoes. + +Representative FORD. She told you that is what he said to her? + +Mr. MARTIN. That is what he said, yes. + +Representative FORD. There was nothing extraordinary that she told you +about the conversation? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, sir. + +Representative FORD. Other than what you have indicated? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. He said not to worry. Everything would be all right. + +Representative FORD. Did you ever ask her about this conversation +that she had with Lee Harvey Oswald while he was at the Dallas police +station? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Representative FORD. As her manager, as the manager of Marina, did you +have anything to do with the change of her appearance? Many people +have said to me the first picture they saw of her and the subsequent +pictures they saw of her she was wearing different kind of clothes. She +had a different hair-do, and so forth. Did you have anything to do with +that? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Representative FORD. What was the purpose of that? + +Mr. MARTIN. Just to change her general appearance so she wouldn't be +recognized when she went out. + +Representative FORD. Did she agree to this, was she willing to do it? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. She didn't like her haircut particularly. + +Representative FORD. She liked the previous way it was? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Representative FORD. How about the change in clothes, the type that she +wore? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, of course, that was for the better. + +Representative FORD. Did she like it? + +Mr. MARTIN. She liked the clothes, yes. + +Representative FORD. That is all. + +Mr. MARTIN. She tried makeup but that didn't work, because she couldn't +stand makeup. + +Mr. REDLICH. We previously asked you, Mr. Martin, about various people +that Marina Oswald knew in the Dallas-Fort Worth area and you have +indicated the extent to which you knew them personally and the extent +to which they had contacted Marina Oswald during the time she was in +your home. + +Are there any other friends of Marina Oswald's rather than those I have +asked you about that you--who attempted to contact her while she was +living at your home? + +Mr. MARTIN. Ilya, I believe it is Mamatav or Mamantov--he is of the +Dallas Police Department and he has asked of her how she is. + +Mr. REDLICH. Has he ever seen her, to the best of your knowledge other +than in an official capacity? + +(At this point, Congressman Ford left the hearing room.) + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, one time when we went to Sears, Sears Roebuck in +Dallas, and walked into the store he was walking and practically ran +into her, and they said hello and passed the time of day and he left. + +Mr. REDLICH. There were no other friends of hers that you know about +who attempted to see her or call her while she was living at your home? + +Other than those we have already discussed on the record? If I +mentioned the name of Mr. or Mrs. Teofil Meller--the first name is +Teofil, the last name is Meller. + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, there was someone that called the office one day and +had a rather odd name, was that Meller, and said that Marina wanted to +talk to her, and we took it just for a crank call. She wouldn't leave +the number or anything like that. I am not sure whether that was Meller. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.) + +Mr. MARTIN. There was no telephone number involved. + +Mr. REDLICH. You have discussed at length the attempt of Ruth Paine to +see Mrs. Oswald. Did Mike Paine ever attempt to see Mrs. Oswald while +she was living at your home? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever talked to Michael Paine? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. When we went over to get the clothes, for instance, he +stood back--I don't believe he said anything at all. It was a very odd +situation. He was helping us move things but he didn't say anything. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever discuss Michael Paine with you? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Only Ruth Paine but not Michael Paine? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. She said they were separated. + +Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, did Marina ever discuss with you her husband's +desire to go to Cuba? + +Mr. MARTIN. She said that he had wanted to go to Cuba because he +wanted--because he wasn't happy in Russia and he wasn't happy in the +United States and then she said he wouldn't be happy in Cuba either. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did she ever discuss with you a plan to hi-jack a plane? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did she ever indicate what steps he was taking to get to +Cuba? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. Not at all. + +Mr. REDLICH. Do you have any knowledge at all of any plans he was +making to get to and live in Cuba? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Ford has asked you about the conversations which +Marina had with Lee Oswald at the Dallas Police Station on November 23 +and you have replied. I would like to ask you about any--your knowledge +about any conversation which Robert Oswald had with Lee Oswald while he +was in the custody of the Dallas Police prior to his death? + +Mr. MARTIN. I have no knowledge at all of that. + +Mr. REDLICH. You have never had any conversations with Robert Oswald +concerning his conversations with Lee Oswald. + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever talked to Mrs. Marguerite Oswald concerning +any conversations which she had with her son while he was in the +custody of the Dallas police? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Have you had any conversations at all with Mrs. Marguerite +Oswald concerning the facts surrounding the assassination of President +Kennedy? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't think any direct conversation, I mean between +she and I. I was present at times out there at the Inn when she was +talking to this person or that person. But I don't believe I have had +any direct conversation with her at all. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did Mrs. Marguerite Oswald ever discuss with you an +incident concerning a photograph which was supposed to have been shown +to her by agents of the FBI on November 23, 1963. + +Mr. MARTIN. No, I have heard that through news media but that is the +only place I heard it. + +Mr. REDLICH. You have no direct knowledge of that incident yourself. +Did Marina Oswald ever discuss that incident with you? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina Oswald ever discuss with you her +mother-in-law's allegations that Lee Oswald was acting as an agent of +the United States Government? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. She mentioned only one incident where the FBI came +to their house when they were in Oak Cliff, and they took him down +to the car, I believe he was about ready to sit down to dinner when +they arrived, and they took him down to the car and talked to him, and +Marina was upset because dinner was spoiling, and I think that is the +only reference she has made to anything like that. + +Mr. REDLICH. She has never discussed with you the specific claims of +Marguerite Oswald in that respect? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. In the course of your conversations with Marina Oswald or +in the course of the preparation of any stories or releases on Mrs. +Oswald's behalf have you ever discussed with Mrs. Oswald the events of +November 21 and the morning of November 22? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Could you relate those conversations to us? + +Mr. MARTIN. He came home Thursday night, which was unusual. + +Mr. REDLICH. Just so the record is clear, I hope you are relating to us +now what Marina Oswald has related to you and not what you have read in +any publication. + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. All right. + +Mr. MARTIN. And, let's see, this was sometime in December that she was +telling me this--no, I remember when it was, when she was moving from +the Inn to my home. + +Mr. REDLICH. By the Inn you mean---- + +Mr. MARTIN. The Inn of the Six Flags. She was in the back seat and Leon +Gopadze was in the front seat talking with her, and she told him that +he had come home Thursday night and that---- + +Mr. DULLES. In Russian? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. This was a conversation in Russian? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Lee translated it for me, Gopadze translated it. + +Mr. DULLES. Afterwards or as it took place. + +Mr. MARTIN. As it took place, well, it was immediately afterwards, and +she made a comment that he had left his wedding band on the dresser, I +think, and she got up the next morning she found his wedding band on +the dresser, which was strange. + +Now, that is the only thing that relates to that period that I have +heard her say. Now, I didn't actually hear her say that. + +Mr. REDLICH. You have had no other conversations with her with regard +to the period of November 21 and the morning of November 22? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Do you have any knowledge of the story which Marina Oswald +prepared in Russian and which she has sent to this Commission? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Could you state the extent of your knowledge? + +Mr. MARTIN. I knew it was written, and written by her, and that is +about the extent of it. + +Mr. REDLICH. Was it ever translated for you? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, we have part of it translated, a portion of it. + +Mr. REDLICH. Are there any parts of that story which you now believe to +be inaccurate? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't have the whole thing translated, but I think +everything that is translated, I have no reason to doubt. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did you assist Marina Oswald in the preparation for her +television appearance in January on CBS television? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Are there any portions of that interview which you now +believe to be inaccurate in any respect? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. We set a format for CBS to use, specific questions, +and Marina was not prompted as to the answers to give. Those were +impromptu. But we went over the ones with her off the camera, and asked +her the questions so that she would understand them, and then she +answered them, and the second time she did it on camera. + +Mr. REDLICH. To the best of your knowledge and recollection those +answers were accurate? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I can't remember them. But none of them struck me as +being---- + +Mr. REDLICH. Apart from the newspaper clippings which we went through +this morning and afternoon, are you familiar with any other narrative +prepared by or for Marina Oswald? + +Mr. MARTIN. Prepared by or for? + +Mr. REDLICH. Yes. + +Mr. MARTIN. You mean other than newspaper articles? + +Mr. REDLICH. Other than the newspaper articles which we discussed this +morning and this afternoon. + +Mr. MARTIN. Life magazine. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did you have anything to do with the recent story in Life +magazine? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, we had nothing on that other than the picture. Time +magazine, she was interviewed for Time magazine. + +Mr. REDLICH. When was that? + +Mr. MARTIN. Saturday--Friday--she was here in Washington. + +Mr. REDLICH. If I may refresh your recollection, she completed her +testimony before this Commission at approximately 5:30 on Thursday, +February 6. + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, I believe it was Friday. We held a press conference +on Friday afternoon, and I think it was Friday night then. + +Mr. REDLICH. It would be sometime after the completion of her testimony +is that correct? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Were you with her during the course of that interview? + +Mr. MARTIN. It must have been Thursday night. It was Thursday night +because Secret Service was still with her. + +Mr. REDLICH. You believe this interview took place on Thursday night? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. That would be February 6? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Were you with her during the course of this interview? + +Mr. MARTIN. Part of the time. I left John Thorne and Marina and the +Time reporter at the table. June was restless, and I was walking her +around the restaurant. + +Mr. REDLICH. Have you read the interview? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Are there any portions of it which you now believe to be +inaccurate, to the best of your recollection? + +Mr. MARTIN. I don't think so. I would have to re-read it to make it +definite, make a definite statement on it. + +Mr. REDLICH. On the basis of conversations which you had during the +course of the testimony of Marina Oswald before this Commission and on +the basis of conversations which you have had subsequent to that time, +do you have any opinion concerning the truthfulness of the testimony +which she presented before this Commission? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. I think primarily she is truthful, and I think that +under oath she would tell the truth. + +Mr. REDLICH. Are you still Mrs. Oswald's business representative? + +Mr. MARTIN. According to the contract, yes. According to my contract +with her. + +Mr. REDLICH. Have you received any communication from her which raises +questions as to whether you are still her business representative? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +The CHAIRMAN. Are we really concerned with that? + +Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chairman, I intend to ask the witness why he was +discharged in terms of whether it had anything to do with any business +negotiations or anything to do with the testimony of Mrs. Oswald before +this Commission. + +The CHAIRMAN. You can ask him if it has anything to do with her +testimony. We are not interested in her business affairs. + +Mr. REDLICH. I merely wanted to establish the fact of---- + +The CHAIRMAN. This thing can go on interminably with all this minutia +and things that don't bear on what we are here to find out, whatever +his business relations are with Mrs. Oswald, it seems to me is his +business and not ours. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did Mrs. Oswald's attempt to terminate the relationship +with you relate in any way to her testimony before this Commission? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. There was no reason given. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did it relate in any way, in your opinion, to any +information which you may have given to anyone else with regard to +your knowledge of the facts concerning the assassination of President +Kennedy. + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Do you know Jack Ruby? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Would you tell us about your association with him? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, it is a very minor association. I had been working in +the Statler Hotel in Dallas as assistant manager for maybe six months +before I met him, and met him through some of the other people in the +hotel. + +Mr. DULLES. What year was this? + +Mr. MARTIN. About 1955. + +Mr. DULLES. I just want to get the general area. + +Mr. MARTIN. 1955 or 1956. And as a club manager, I was club manager +in Dallas also, and didn't associate with him at all, even on a +bilateral communication through the clubs. But it was just a nodding +acquaintance, you might say. I knew him by his first name. He knew me +by my first name and we spoke when we saw each other and I think I have +been in his place twice. + +Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall the approximate dates of those visits? + +Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, once in 1962. I had some gentlemen from New +Orleans with me. They were visiting Dallas on business at the Inn of +the Six Flags, and they wanted to see the Carousel. + +Mr. DULLES. That is what you mean by his place? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. So I called Jack Ruby and asked if it would be all +right if I brought them down. We stayed approximately an hour and a +half. + +The other time was during the daytime, let's see, as it was then, I +had--I was walking in that area and just stopped in to say hello. The +club was closed at that time, not closed for business but it was before +opening hours. + +Mr. REDLICH. Those are the only times you have been in Jack Ruby's +business establishment? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Do you consider yourself a friend of his? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. An acquaintance. + +Mr. REDLICH. Have you gone out socially? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. He came out to the Inn one time with some little +gimmick. It is called a Detwist Board. It is quite a piece of plywood +about like this with a round plate on the bottom of it, seated in ball +bearings and you are supposed to stand on this thing to twist, and came +out to ask me to see who to ask at the park to merchandise it, the Six +Flags over Texas Amusement Park, and I told him. Now, whether he went +over there or not, I don't know. + +Mr. REDLICH. I understand that you have had a conversation with an aid +of General Walker concerning the General Walker incident. + +Would you tell the Commission about that? + +Mr. MARTIN. They contacted us---- + +Mr. REDLICH. Who is "they"? + +Mr. MARTIN. General Walker's aide, Mr. Moore or Morse, a tall thin +gentleman, about 55 or 60, and wanted actually an interview with Marina +which we didn't think was necessary. + +They came out to John Thorne's office and we sat and talked. They were +of the opinion--what they were trying to do was find out who else was +involved--this was right after the announcement was made in the paper +about Lee Oswald shooting at Walker. They were trying to find out who +else was involved because General Walker is still in fear of his life. + +Mr. DULLES. This was some time before the 22d. + +Mr. MARTIN. No, it was after. + +Mr. DULLES. After November 22? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. This was after the announcement was made in the +paper that---- + +Mr. DULLES. Oh, yes. + +Mr. MARTIN. That Lee Oswald had attacked him. + +Mr. DULLES. The actual attack was in April. This was after the +newspaper announcement. + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +The CHAIRMAN. After the newspaper announcements that Lee had tried to +kill him which was after the assassination? + +Mr. MARTIN. That is correct. + +Mr. DULLES. Yes. + +Mr. MARTIN. And they just wanted verification actually that or to try +to get verification as to how many people were involved, and we told +them that there was just one person involved. + +Mr. REDLICH. At the time did you ask Marina about this? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. And this is what she told you? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. The persons involved in the Walker incident? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. She said that Lee did it alone without any help. There +was no one with him. + +Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I have at this time no further questions other +than those which may be suggested by a perusal of the records which you +have forwarded to this Commission. + +As we indicated in the brief recess earlier, Mr. Dulles is able to be +here at 9 o'clock this evening, and I would envisage then a very brief +session at which time your testimony would be completed. + +Mr. MARTIN. All right. + +Mr. REDLICH. Are there any questions that anyone would like to ask of +Mr. Martin at this time? + +The CHAIRMAN. Would you like to ask your client any questions? + +Mr. LEECH. No. I am not going to make that mistake. + +(Laughter.) + +The CHAIRMAN. All right. + +Mr. DULLES. I have no questions. I will reserve them for tonight. I +don't think I have any further questions. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rhyne, do you have any questions you would like to +ask. Mr. Rankin, are you through for the day? + +Mr. RANKIN. Until 9 o'clock. + +The CHAIRMAN. Well then, gentlemen, we will adjourn until 9 o'clock. + +(Whereupon, at 5:15 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +Evening Session + +TESTIMONY OF JAMES HERBERT MARTIN RESUMED + + +The President's Commission reconvened at 9:20 p.m. + +Mr. DULLES. The Committee will come to order. + +Will you continue with the testimony? + +Mr. REDLICH. Thank you, Mr. Dulles. + +Mr. Martin, at our last session I asked you whether you knew Jack Ruby, +and you replied that you did. You indicated the brief contact that you +have had with him and the two times, I believe, that you have been to +his business establishment? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Apart from your own personal contact with Jack Ruby, do +you have any other information about him and his activities which you +would like to present before this Commission? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, nothing that I definitely know about him. It is just he +is a city character. He is very friendly to everyone. + +Mr. REDLICH. Please understand I am not asking you for rumors or that +type of thing. + +Mr. MARTIN. No, I know. Well, just what I know of him, he seems very +friendly to everyone, and he is always around. You are liable to see +him anywhere. + +Mr. REDLICH. Has he ever been to the motel that you have? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, I mentioned that. + +Mr. REDLICH. Oh, yes. + +Mr. MARTIN. He brought that twist board out there one time. + +Mr. REDLICH. Never been there as a guest? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. I hand you a copy of an invoice for a Revere recorder and +a 1,200-foot reel of recording tape, and ask you if you have ever seen +this? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. That is a tape recorder that I rented and recorded +the---- + +Mr. REDLICH. I will ask you about it shortly. I would just like to know +if you are familiar with it. + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chairman, I am marking this as Commission Exhibit No. +332, and ask that it be admitted in evidence. + +Mr. DULLES. Any objection? + +Mr. LEECH. No, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. It may be admitted. + +(The tape recorder and tape invoice referred to were marked +Commission's Exhibit No. 332 for identification and received in +evidence.) + +Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I hand you Commission Exhibit No. 332, and +ask you to tell the Commission the conditions under which this invoice +arose? + +Mr. MARTIN. We had Marina's manuscript interpreted by Ilya Mamantov, +and this was part of it. He was only able to interpret about half of it. + +Mr. REDLICH. He interpreted it and put it on tape? + +Mr. MARTIN. And we recorded that on tape as he interpreted it. + +Mr. DULLES. How do you mean interpreted? + +Mr. MARTIN. He read it in English? + +Mr. DULLES. Oh, I see, translated it. + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. From Russian into English? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. When I asked you this afternoon about your knowledge as to +the accuracy of that story, I take it your reply was based upon this +translation? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. And this only encompasses about half of the entire story, +is that right? + +Mr. MARTIN. It is more than half, it is about 15 pages, I guess. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did she consult with you at all in the preparation of that +story? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. And there is nothing on this tape other than the English +translation of that Russian story? + +Mr. MARTIN. That is true. + +Mr. DULLES. Do we have that translation as well as the copy of the +original? + +Mr. REDLICH. Yes, Mr. Chairman, we have the original in Russian and +then it was translated by Mr. Gopadze, of the Secret Service. + +Mr. MARTIN. Actually our translation is very poor. He was not able to +translate properly into English a lot of the phrases. + +Mr. DULLES. Who is "he," Illa? Isn't that Ilya, by the way? + +Mr. MARTIN. I am not sure. + +Mr. DULLES. That is generally the Russian, I don't know. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is right. + +Mr. MARTIN. It might be. + +Mr. DULLES. Yes. + +Mr. MARTIN. But he is professor at SMU. He has a list of titles that +long. He is very well thought of. I think he works for Sun Oil Company, +and is a well-respected individual. His wife and his mother, I believe, +teach Russian also. I think his mother taught Mrs. Paine a good deal of +her Russian. + +Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I would like to show you Commission Exhibit +No. 325 which was introduced earlier today. Mr. Leech, I believe you +have a photostat of this. If you could hand it to me during the course +of this questioning. I would appreciate it. + +Mr. LEECH. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Thank you. + +Could you tell the Commission what this document purports to state, and +then I will ask you about individual items. + +Mr. MARTIN. These are contracts that we have made both in writing and +verbally for Marina Oswald's right, her story rights. + +Mr. REDLICH. And the first item appearing on Commission Exhibit No. 325 +is a contract with Texitalia Films. + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Would you describe the terms and conditions of that +contract? + +Mr. MARTIN. Texitalia Films is planning a 60-minute technicolor +documentary to start. They will pay $75,000 for World-Wide movie and +the TV rights. + +Mr. DULLES. Excuse me, is this a documentary of Marina's life? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Any movie or television appearances Marina would be +paid $7,500 plus expenses for each appearance. Then for each personal +appearance, for instance, the film opens in St. Louis on such and such +a date and they would like for her to be there to make a personal +appearance for the showing, the opening of the film, she would receive +$1,500 plus expenses for each public appearance of that nature. + +Mr. REDLICH. And this contract according to this exhibit was signed on +February 11, 1964? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. LEECH. By her? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, by me acting for her. + +Mr. REDLICH. By you acting on behalf of Mrs. Oswald? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, in accordance with my contract with her. + +Mr. REDLICH. The second item appearing here is a contract with Life +magazine. Would you tell the Commission about that? + +Mr. MARTIN. Life magazine purchased the rights, North American rights +on a photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald with a rifle and pistol, primarily +for their use on a cover issue. + +Mr. DULLES. That is what appeared on the recent cover issue, I guess, +it was 2 weeks ago. + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. + +Now, that $5,000 has been paid. We have the $5,000 in an escrow account. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did you actually have in your possession the photograph, a +copy of which appeared on the cover of Life magazine? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us how this contract was consummated, in +view of the fact that Life magazine apparently printed on its cover a +photograph which you never possessed? + +Mr. MARTIN. They knew the photographs belonged to Marina. They have a +common law copyright, and the only way they could legally use the film +is to purchase the rights from Marina. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did Life magazine indicate to you where they obtained the +photograph? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Have you had conversations with other publications +concerning that photograph? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I made the contact with the London Daily Mirror +for the purchase of the British Commonwealth rights on that same +photograph, and they guaranteed $2,200 plus 50-50 split on what they +sold in the Commonwealth. It was restricted to the Commonwealth only. + +However, the London Daily Mail came out with the photograph prior to +the Mirror, and I was informed by Mr. Weggand of the London Daily +Express that the Detroit Free Press had sold this photograph to the +London Daily Mail for $500. + +Mr. REDLICH. Do you have any idea how the Detroit Free Press obtained +this photograph? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. I talked to Ken Murray, who I was informed was the +attorney for the Detroit Free Press. + +Mr. REDLICH. Where did you talk to him? + +Mr. MARTIN. At his home in Detroit. + +Mr. REDLICH. By phone? + +Mr. MARTIN. By telephone. And he stated that the photograph was public +property, and not covered under common law copyright. I asked him where +he got the photo, and he said he got it at the same place as Life did, +through a leak in the Commission. I talked to Life magazine attorney--I +can't remember his name. It is a very odd name. It begins with an "S". +Now, Murray said that Life had informed him that they had gotten it +from a leak through the Commission, and I contacted Life and he denied +saying anything of the sort to Murray. + +However, Murray insisted that that is where he got that and he figured +it was public domain. + +Mr. REDLICH. At the start of today's testimony when you mentioned +the possibility of a leak with regard to this photograph, something +that you said prior to the actual start of hearings, Mr. Rankin and I +commented on that assertion. + +Would you tell the Commission what we said? + +Mr. MARTIN. That there was definitely not a leak in the Commission, and +that you would certainly find out what Murray was talking about. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did you talk to an editor of the Detroit Free Press with +regard to this photograph? + +Mr. MARTIN. I called at night. It was at night, and I asked for the +news editor. He was not in, so I talked to a reporter, and he couldn't +say anything about it. He referred me to Ken Murray and gave me his +home telephone number. + +Mr. REDLICH. The next item on Commission Exhibit No. 325 has reference +to Stern Magazine. + +Would you tell the Commission about that, please? + +Mr. MARTIN. Stern Magazine we have been working with since the middle +of December. They have been quite patient actually. For $12,500 they +wanted Marina's memoirs and photographs, available photographs for use +in Germany and Italy only. They wanted exclusive use in those two +countries. Then they would endeavor to sell these same memoirs and +pictures to other European countries, limiting it only to European +countries, and take a 30 percent commission on any sales that they +made, the remaining 70 percent going to Marina. + +Mr. REDLICH. Has this contract been signed? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Do you know when it was signed? Can you approximate the +date? + +Mr. MARTIN. I confirmed it by wire to them. It is in the exhibits. + +Mr. REDLICH. We have not introduced---- + +Mr. MARTIN. You haven't come to that yet. + +Mr. REDLICH. We do not intend to introduce the specific documents into +the record, just this summary. + +Mr. LEECH. Give him an approximate date. + +Mr. REDLICH. You say it was confirmed by telegram. + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, it was confirmed by telegram to Spiegelberg. + +Mr. LEECH. When? + +Mr. MARTIN. In New York. December 16 at 2:45 p.m. + +Mr. REDLICH. The next item on Commission Exhibit No. 325 also refers to +Stern Magazine, an item of $2,650. + +Could you comment on that? + +Mr. MARTIN. This was a recent development wherein since they could not +send an author in to talk to Marina, they purchased seven photographs +for a total of $2,650, to take the memoirs later. + +However, they will not hold off the memoirs forever. + +Mr. REDLICH. These seven photographs are photographs of what? + +Mr. MARTIN. Of Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald together and separate. + +Mr. REDLICH. These were photographs which were not turned over to the +Dallas police? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. They were photographs that we were given prints of by +the FBI. The FBI sent prints of these photographs to us. + +Mr. REDLICH. Am I correct in assuming that all of the photographs which +were in the possession of Marina Oswald and Lee Harvey Oswald, either +in his apartment or in the Paine's apartment, were turned over to the +Dallas police? + +Is that right? + +Mr. MARTIN. As far as I know. + +Mr. REDLICH. To the best of your knowledge? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. And that any photographs which you have and which have +been the basis of any contract are copies which were made available to +you by some law enforcement authority? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Now, there was a check, there was a $250 cash down +payment made on this $2,650. Then a check for $2,400; the check was +stopped, payment on the check was stopped because of a letter written +by William McKenzie saying that I had no authority to sign any +contracts whatsoever for Marina, and that if they did use anything that +I had sold them, litigation would follow immediately. So consequently +they stopped payment on the check. I still have the check. It is still +attached to the letter that was sent with it. + +Mr. DULLES. Could I ask who is that check made out to? + +Mr. MARTIN. Made out to me. + +Mr. DULLES. To you as agent? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. Or to you just in your name? + +Mr. MARTIN. I think it is just made out to me. + +Mr. DULLES. I don't know if it is important. + +Mr. LEECH. You go ahead and I'll find it. + +Mr. MARTIN. Under the contract all checks were supposed to be made +payable to me. Then I would deduct my fee and forward the balance to +Marina. + +Mr. REDLICH. The next item on Commission Exhibit No. 325 refers to +Meredith Press. + +Mr. MARTIN. The Meredith Press is a book publisher with their main +office in Des Moines, Iowa. I had talked with Mr. Ted Purdy at great +length and on numerous occasions by phone. We had negotiated world +book rights for Marina Oswald's story. For this Meredith Press would +pay a $25,000 advance to her. Then on the first printing would be a 10 +percent commission of the retail price of the book. + +On the second printing would be 12-1/2 percent commission, and on the +third and succeeding printings it would be 15 percent commission. + +Now, of course, the commissions were to be deducted from the advance. + +Mr. REDLICH. And this was to be her life story? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Had you discussed with Marina at all the contents of this +book? Had you started making any preparations for writing? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. I am not a writer, and wouldn't know the first thing +to do about a book. But we had negotiated with one writer, Isaac Don +Levine, who Meredith Press felt would be the best writer available for +this type of book because of the Russian attachment. + +Mr. REDLICH. When you told us this morning of your initial concern over +the Nixon shooting incident, did it relate to these various agreements +that you have been working on concerning the sale of Marina Oswald's +story? + +Mr. MARTIN. Did it relate to them? + +Mr. REDLICH. Yes. + +Mr. MARTIN. How do you mean? + +Mr. REDLICH. Were you concerned about the publicity, the effect of the +publicity of the Nixon incident on these various agreements which you +were negotiating at the time? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. As a matter of fact, it would enhance the price of it. + +For instance, the Post magazine, the Saturday Evening Post, said that +they would like to buy American serial rights if there was something in +Marina's story that the Commission did not know. + +Mr. REDLICH. When did they tell you this? + +Mr. MARTIN. Around the first of the year I guess. + +Mr. REDLICH. Around the first of the year. Did Marina know about this? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. This is the Saturday Evening Post you are talking about? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I talked to a Mr. Black. + +Mr. REDLICH. And the Saturday Evening Post said to you that they would +buy the serial rights provided there was some information which would +not be known to the Commission? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I told them there was no realm that would apply, and +we closed negotiations. + +Mr. REDLICH. And you say you didn't relate this fact at all to Marina +Oswald? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. These negotiations with the Post. + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Was there in fact to the best of your knowledge material +which she did not in fact relate to this Commission? + +Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge other than the Nixon affair. + +Mr. REDLICH. And were you aware at the time she completed her testimony +here that she had not related this information to the Commission? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Was there any connection between her failure to tell the +Commission of the Nixon incident and the negotiations, the temporary +negotiations that you had had with the Saturday Evening Post? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, none whatsoever. That was closed off at least 30 days +before she testified. + +Mr. REDLICH. Was there any attempt on your part or anyone acting on +Marina Oswald's part that you know of to negotiate the sale of the +information concerning the Nixon shooting incident? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, not to my knowledge. + +Mr. REDLICH. When Marina--did Marina ever give you an explanation for +why she did not tell the Commission about the Nixon incident? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. I have never talked to her about that other than the +first time that she told me about it. I asked John Thorne if she had +mentioned it. I didn't discuss it with her. + +Mr. REDLICH. And since Marina Oswald's return from Washington after +having testified here, you say you have never discussed the Nixon +incident with Marina Oswald in any way? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. I probably would have had there been sufficient time. +Of course, she left my home the following day after she got back from +Washington. + +Mr. REDLICH. When you say you probably would have, in what way? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, since she didn't mention it to the Commission, I feel +the Commission should know about it. + +Mr. DULLES. Did you know at this time she had not mentioned it to the +Commission? + +Mr. MARTIN. I asked John Thorne. + +Mr. DULLES. Oh, you asked John Thorne? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. What did John Thorne say? + +Mr. MARTIN. Said she had not mentioned it. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did you ask John Thorne why she had not mentioned it? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did John Thorne offer any information as to why she had +not mentioned it? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Do you know whether John Thorne had urged her to mention +it? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. John Thorne was aware of the Nixon incident prior to +Marina Oswald's appearance before this Commission, was he not? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Because you had apparently told him about that shortly +after you learned about it in January. + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did you discuss the Nixon incident with Robert Oswald +after Marina Oswald's appearance before this Commission in February? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. You had not? + +Mr. MARTIN. I don't know if I discussed it with him prior to the +Commission's testimony or not. I may or I may not have. I don't know. I +don't know whether I mentioned it to him or not. + +Mr. REDLICH. Coming back to Commission Exhibit No. 325, the next item +under London Daily Mirror, am I correct in assuming that this is, that +this item refers to the rifle photo which you discussed earlier in your +testimony tonight? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, that is right. + +Mr. REDLICH. Do you have anything to add with regard to that rifle +photo that you have not already told us? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did you discuss with Marina Oswald at any time this rifle +photo and the circumstances under which it was taken. + +Mr. MARTIN. I asked her at one time why he wanted a photograph taken of +that type, and she said she didn't know. He just wanted pictures taken +that way. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did she tell you when this photograph was taken in +relationship to any other incidents such as the General Walker incident +or the Richard Nixon incident? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did you know where the photograph was taken? + +Mr. MARTIN. I don't know, I don't even know if it was in Oak Cliff or +not. I have an idea that it was in Oak Cliff but I don't know whether I +know that or whether I have read it. + +Mr. REDLICH. When you say Oak Cliff, some of us don't live in Dallas. + +Mr. MARTIN. It is a suburb of Dallas, a section of Dallas. + +Mr. REDLICH. Are you referring to the area where the Neely Street house +was located? + +To refresh your recollection, Mr. Martin, the Oswalds lived in two +places in Dallas. One was on Elsbeth Street and the other on Neely. Are +they both in Oak Cliff? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, Elsbeth Street is right around the corner from Neely +Street, I believe they lived in an apartment on Elsbeth. + +It was a group of apartments in one building, and on Neely Street, I +think, that was similar to a duplex. + +Mr. REDLICH. And you are not certain as to where this photograph which +was the subject of these negotiations was taken? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, except that the Elsbeth address, I believe, was a brick +residence, I mean a brick apartment, it is a dark building, and the +Neely Street address is a white building. + +I believe the photo shows a white building. + +Mr. REDLICH. On the basis of that you would conclude the photograph was +taken at which address? + +Mr. MARTIN. At the Neely Street address. + +Mr. REDLICH. At the Neely Street address. When you were negotiating +with various publications for this photograph, didn't anyone ask you +when and where it was taken? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, I told them that it was while they were living in Oak +Cliff. I didn't say where or when. + +Mr. REDLICH. No one asked you. + +Mr. MARTIN. And they apparently weren't concerned with the where or +when. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did they ask you anything about the publication which Lee +Oswald had in his hand? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, and I told them that it was either the Militant or the +Worker. I was not sure which one. I am not even sure whether either one. + +Mr. REDLICH. Your copy of the photograph did not indicate clearly which +one it was? + +Mr. MARTIN. Correct. + +Mr. REDLICH. Do you now know which one it was? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. DULLES. Are you sure it is one of the two? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, I am not. I assume that it would be one of the two. + +Mr. REDLICH. For the record it is the Militant. + +Mr. DULLES. It is? + +Mr. REDLICH. Is there anything about the circumstances of this +photograph, including the rifle, the pistol, the time, the place, +anything concerning this photograph that you have not told this +Commission about which you have knowledge? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. The last item on Commission Exhibit No. 325 is This Week +magazine, $1,000. Could you tell us about that. At the conclusion of +this list I will ask if there is anything else. We are now at This Week +magazine. + +Mr. MARTIN. When Marina was here in Washington, she had the press +conference, and at the end of the press conference she mentioned, she +made a statement "Now I go to church." On the way to the CBS studios we +passed a Russian Orthodox Church, and she remarked about it, that she +would like to come back and go inside, see what it looked like. Someone +in This Week magazine caught that statement, and wanted to write a +short article on Marina going to church, and that is what that is. + +Mr. REDLICH. What happened? Could you tell us how this article got +written? + +Mr. MARTIN. It hasn't been written. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did the reporter accompany Mrs. Oswald to church? + +Mr. MARTIN. Oh, no. Actually when the television interview was over, +we came back and went to the church, but the church was locked and +we didn't get in at all. Now this contact was made after we left +Washington. This Week magazine contacted us after, not while we were +still here. + +Mr. REDLICH. And what was the subject matter of this article +specifically supposed to be? + +Mr. MARTIN. The title of it was supposed to be "I go to church," and it +would be an article written on Marina going to church. + +Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, the total figure on the bottom of Commission +Exhibit No. 325 is $132,350. This presumably does not include any +future royalties, is that correct? + +Mr. MARTIN. That is correct. + +Mr. REDLICH. Have you made an estimate as to the total earnings which +would accrue as a result of these contractual arrangements? + +Mr. MARTIN. It should be approximately $300,000 at a maximum, depending +on what American serial rights and British Commonwealth serial rights, +Asiatic serial rights would bring. + +Mr. REDLICH. You say the maximum of $300,000? + +Mr. MARTIN. I think so. + +Mr. LEECH. Of those contracts? + +Mr. REDLICH. That is what I am asking about are these. + +Mr. MARTIN. Of these contracts, yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us about any other contractual arrangements +that you have made or are negotiating on behalf of Marina Oswald? + +Mr. MARTIN. There are no others. I will have to refer to things. +We had an offer from Australia and also from New Zealand as far as +this photograph is concerned. However, it was thrown to the wind by +the Detroit Free Press, so they got it from Detroit Free Press, we +have been offered--we have not received an offer. The Australian +newspaper---- + +Mr. DULLES. Do you need these details do you think? + +Mr. REDLICH. I want to get the total figure, Mr. Chairman. + +Mr. MARTIN. Associated Newspapers Limited of Australia would like to +have Australian rights to a book that Marina would write, and also +the London Evening Standard would like to have the British rights, of +course, to the picture of Lee Harvey Oswald. + +Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, Mr. Thorne has indicated to this Commission +that he estimated that Marina's earnings would approach approximately +$500,000. Would you comment on that estimate? + +Mr. MARTIN. I think it might be a little high. Of course, if you take +into consideration she has $68,000, close to $70,000 in contributions +alone, then the advances on this Exhibit No. 325, that is $200,000 +right there. I think $500,000 might be just a little bit high. + +Mr. REDLICH. The final document I would like to show you is a photostat +of a letter which you presented to the Commission today, purporting to +be a letter written in Russian together with an English translation. It +starts, the English translation starts with the words "As the widow of +Lee Oswald." I show you Commission Exhibit No. 333 and ask you if this +is a photostat of the letter which you submitted to the Commission this +morning. + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, apparently so. + +Mr. DULLES. Who is that letter to? + +Mr. REDLICH. We don't know yet. + +Mr. DULLES. You don't know yet? + +Mr. REDLICH. I will develop that in the questioning. I mark this +Commission Exhibit No. 333, being a Russian letter and what purports to +be its English translation and ask that it be admitted in evidence. + +Mr. DULLES. Can you identify that any further than just a Russian +letter? + +Mr. REDLICH. On the top appears a date, and the day of the month is the +20th. I am unable to tell what month it is. + +Mr. MARTIN. But the year is 1964, and the words "Dallas, Texas" then +appear under the date. + +Mr. DULLES. That helps identify it. + +Mr. REDLICH. I ask that it be admitted in evidence. + +Mr. DULLES. Any objection? + +Mr. LEECH. No objection. + +Mr. DULLES. It is admitted. + +(The photostats of a Russian letter with an English translation were +marked Commission Exhibit No. 333 for identification and received in +evidence.) + +Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, with your permission I would just summarize +the contents of this letter, and if I have summarized it inaccurately, +just say so. This letter requests that the death penalty not be applied +to Jack Ruby, the person who has been charged with the murder of Lee +Harvey Oswald. Is that inaccurate? + +Mr. MARTIN. No; that is correct. + +Mr. REDLICH. That is a correct summary of the contents of the letter? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall to whom that letter was written? + +Mr. MARTIN. She originally wrote the letter to Melvin Belli. + +Mr. REDLICH. By "she" you mean Marina Oswald? + +Mr. MARTIN. Marina. I advised her against---- + +Mr. REDLICH. Melvin Belli? + +Mr. MARTIN. Is the attorney for Jack Ruby. I advised her against +such an action, because of the possibility of the letter itself in +translating from Russian to English being misinterpreted and used in a +manner that might be derogatory to Marina Oswald. I suggested that she +send this letter to Henry Wade who would be the prosecutor in the case. +Now whether she changed the salutation on the letter I don't know. +I can't read Russian. And the salutation was not translated in the +translation. The translation was made by Katya Ford. + +Mr. REDLICH. To the best of your knowledge has this letter ever been +sent to anyone? + +Mr. MARTIN. No sir, it hasn't. + +Mr. DULLES. You say it has not been? + +Mr. MARTIN. It has not been. + +Mr. DULLES. That is your belief or you have knowledge that it has not +been? + +Mr. MARTIN. I have the original. Now if a letter has been sent, it +would be a different letter. + +Mr. REDLICH. On the basis of your knowledge of Marina Oswald's +handwriting, would you tell the Commission whether you believe that +this letter is in her handwriting? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, it is. I also observed her writing the letter. + +Mr. REDLICH. Are you aware of the fact that Marina Oswald discussed +this letter when she appeared before this Commission? + +Mr. MARTIN. I believe you mentioned it sometime today. + +Mr. REDLICH. Were you aware of it prior to your coming here? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. Do you know why it has not been sent? + +Mr. MARTIN. She decided that it was best not to be sent unless she +actually thought that Ruby was going to get the death penalty. Actually +a letter like that should go to the Governor of the State. + +Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, do you have any additional information +concerning the assassination of President Kennedy, Marina Oswald, or +the assassination of her husband Lee Harvey Oswald which you would like +to present before this Commission at this time? + +Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't think so. Nothing. + +Mr. REDLICH. If it would be helpful for the work of this Commission for +you to return to Washington and appear again before this Commission, +would you be willing to do so? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions of this witness, +unless Mr. Rankin does or you do. + +Mr. DULLES. I would just like to ask a question about this letter I am +just glancing over. Where did this letter paper come from? Is that some +personal paper with a tree on it? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I bought that. + +Mr. DULLES. You bought it for her? + +Mr. MARTIN. At a drug store, yes, sir, at a drug store in Arlington. + +Mr. DULLES. Is this another draft or is this just a copy? + +Mr. MARTIN. This is the original of the copy. + +Mr. REDLICH. We have photographed what is now Commission Exhibit No. +333 and we are keeping the photostat. Mr. Martin, you will recall that +at the start of today's proceedings Chief Justice Warren read into the +record a copy of the letter which you received requesting certain +notes, records, documents in connection with today's hearing. Have +you made available to the Commission all of the material which was +requested in that letter? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I went through everything I had at home, and +could find nothing else. + +Mr. REDLICH. If you should find anything else which you inadvertently +failed to bring before this Commission, will you mail it to us for +examination and we will return it to you. + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; there is a Worker that I have. + +Mr. REDLICH. You mean by Worker the Daily Worker? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I think they dropped the "Daily." + +Mr. DULLES. They are no longer daily. + +Mr. MARTIN. It is called the Worker now. It has quite a lengthy article +about Marina in it, and I will send that to you. + +Mr. REDLICH. And you will send anything that you may come across which +you may have inadvertently failed to produce before this Commission? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. REDLICH. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. + +Mr. DULLES. There were some questions that Senator Cooper had +suggested. I don't know, have you looked those over? Have they been +covered? + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Those have been covered. + +Mr. DULLES. All been covered? + +Mr. REDLICH. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. Did Marina ever express to you her opinion as to the guilt +or innocence of her husband in connection with the assassination of the +President? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. What did she say? + +Mr. MARTIN. She believes he was guilty. She believes he did it, and +the first time she said it I questioned her as to why she thought he +did it, and she said she just felt it. It was a woman's intuition. She +didn't know the word intuition at that time. I had to look it up in the +Russian-English Dictionary. + +Mr. DULLES. Did she indicate any view as to whether he did it alone or +had an accomplice or accomplices? + +Mr. MARTIN. She remarked about the Walker incident, that that was +definitely done alone, and that he always was alone. He never did +anything with anyone else. I don't recall that she mentioned that +specifically in the case of the assassination of the President. But she +had made that remark before or during the interim about Walker. + +Mr. DULLES. Did she ever at any time express to you any interest in +returning to the Soviet Union or her desire to stay in the United +States? + +Mr. MARTIN. Well, she has always said that she wanted to stay in the +United States. One time she said that she thought she would go back to +Russia, and I asked her why and she said, well, she was just joking. + +Mr. DULLES. Did she ever refer to you any letters she wrote to the +Soviet Embassy with regard to a desire to return? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. There was only one incident that she told me about was +a letter to a friend in Russia. + +Mr. DULLES. You mentioned that I think. + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. The one that she didn't put enough stamps on, enough +postage on. + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, it came back "insufficient postage." + +Mr. DULLES. Did she ever mention to you any names of any friends or +associates of her husband that had not been discussed here at one time +or another in this testimony, including the list of names that was read +out to you? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. DULLES. Do you know any other friends that Marina has other than +those that have been discussed in this testimony? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. I was trying to think a while ago about that, and I +can't think of anyone else. + +Mr. DULLES. That is all I have. + +Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Leech, would you like to ask Mr. Martin any questions +at this time? + +Mr. LEECH. Not a word. + +Mr. DULLES. Mr. Rhyne? Mr. Rankin, have you any further questions? + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I merely wish to thank him for appearing +voluntarily. + +Mr. DULLES. I do thank you for coming and responding so fully to our +questions. + +Mr. MARTIN. Anything I can do. + +Mr. DULLES. And if anything occurs to you or to your counsel as +sometimes happens later, we will be very glad if you or your counsel +will bring it to our attention. + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I certainly will. + +Mr. REDLICH. May I before we adjourn ask another question? + +Mr. DULLES. Certainly. + +Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever discussed with Mrs. Marguerite Oswald the +question of the guilt or innocence of Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. The only time I was in contact with Marguerite Oswald +was at the Inn of the Six Flags in Arlington, Tex., and I don't believe +I really discussed anything with her. I was more on the sidelines and +didn't enter into any discussions with her at all. + +Mr. REDLICH. And have you discussed with Robert Oswald the question of +the guilt or innocence of Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Let's see, on one occasion the article by Mark +Lane, I think it was in the National Observer, was printed in the +National Observer, and I called Robert's attention to that. I believe +he cited 15 points where he believed that Lee Oswald was innocent, +and I remarked to Robert that in nearly 100 percent of those points +they were just completely out of line. The brief I believe was taken +from newspaper accounts, from various newspaper accounts of the +assassination, and a number of them contradicted each other. + +Mr. REDLICH. Did Robert Oswald comment on this? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. For the record I believe the publication you are referring +to is the National Guardian. + +Mr. MARTIN. The National Guardian, yes. + +Mr. REDLICH. Is that your recollection now? + +Mr. MARTIN. Yes, National Guardian. + +Mr. REDLICH. And Robert Oswald had no comment on this? + +Mr. MARTIN. No. + +Mr. REDLICH. We have no further questions. + +Mr. DULLES. The Commission will stand adjourned, subject to call. + +(Whereupon, at 10:20 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +_Wednesday, March 4, 1964_ + +TESTIMONY OF MARK LANE + +The President's Commission met at 2:30 p.m., on March 4, 1964, at 200 +Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. + +Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman +Cooper and Representative Gerald R. Ford, members. + +Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Norman Redlich, +assistant counsel; Charles Murray and Charles Rhyne, assistants to +Walter E. Craig. + + +The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. + +The Commission has been informed that Mr. Lane has collected numerous +materials relevant to the Commission's work. + +The Commission proposes to question Mr. Lane on all matters of which +he has knowledge concerning the assassination of President Kennedy and +the subsequent killing of Lee Harvey Oswald, and to request of Mr. Lane +that he make available to the Commission any documentary material in +his possession which can assist the Commission in its work. + +In accordance with the rules of this Commission, Mr. Lane has been +furnished with a copy of this statement. + +Mr. Lane, would please rise and be sworn? Do you solemnly swear to tell +the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. LANE. I do. + +The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please. + +Mr. Rankin, would you proceed with the examination, please? + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Lane, will you state your name? + +Mr. LANE. My name is Mark Lane. + +Mr. RANKIN. Where do you live? + +Mr. LANE. 164 West 79th Street, New York City, New York State. + +Mr. RANKIN. Are you a practicing lawyer? + +Mr. LANE. Yes; I am. + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you state your age, please? + +Mr. LANE. I am 37 years old. + +Mr. RANKIN. How long have you been practicing law? + +Mr. LANE. Thirteen years. + +Mr. RANKIN. You have qualified in the State of New York? + +Mr. LANE. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Are you qualified in any other Jurisdiction? + +Mr. LANE. Just in the Federal court. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you have some information concerning the matters being +investigated by the Commission that you would like to present to the +Commission? + +Mr. LANE. Yes; I do. + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you proceed to do so? + +Mr. LANE. Yes. + +I wonder if I might ask at the outset if I will be able to secure a +copy of the transcript of my testimony tomorrow, or is that going to be +rushing things? + +The CHAIRMAN. You will be able to obtain it. I don't know whether we +can promise it to you tomorrow morning or not. But we will do it just +as quickly as it can be transcribed by the reporter. + +Mr. LANE. Thank you, sir. + +At the outset, I would like to request that this portion of the +hearing, in any event, be opened to the public. I think that there are +matters here of grave concern to all the people of our country, and +that it would, therefore, be fruitful and constructive for the sessions +to be conducted in a public fashion, open to the public and to the +press. + +Accordingly, I request that this session at least involving my +testimony be so opened to the public. + +The CHAIRMAN. You would have a right, as any witness would have, to +request that, Mr. Lane. We will conduct this in an open hearing. We +will adjourn at this time to the auditorium downstairs, and we will +conduct the hearing there. It will be open to the public. I saw a good +many members of the press around, so it will really be a public affair. + +(Whereupon, at 2:45 p.m., the Commission recessed and then reconvened +in the auditorium in open session.) + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MARK LANE RESUMED IN OPEN SESSION + + +The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. + +The Commission convened in our committee room on the fourth floor. + +A reporter has been appointed. + +Mr. Lane has been sworn. + +Mr. Lane has stated that he would like to give his testimony at a +public hearing. I explained to him that that was thoroughly agreeable +to the Commission. The Commission does not operate in a secret way. Any +witness who desires to have his--give his testimony in public may do so. + +We have done it in the quiet of our rooms for the convenience of +witnesses, and in order to accelerate the program. But any witness who +desires to have his testimony recorded at a public hearing may do so. + +The purpose of this Commission is, of course, eventually to make known +to the President, and to the American public everything that has +transpired before this Commission. All of it will be made available at +the appropriate time. The records of the work of the Commission will be +preserved for the public. So, Mr. Lane, we will be happy to accommodate +you, and to proceed with our hearing. + +Now, Mr. Rankin will conduct the examination. + +(Having been previously duly sworn.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Lane, will you proceed to tell the Commission whatever +you have that would bear upon this investigation? Start item by item, +and give us whatever you have in support. + +Mr. LANE. Yes, sir. + +At the outset, I would like to call to the Commission's attention a +matter which is somewhat peripheral, perhaps, and should the Commission +determine it does not wish to hear my testimony in that regard, I +will understand that. But I would like to call it to your attention, +because although it is peripheral I think it is related to both the +assassination and the investigation into the assassination of the +President. + +That is in relationship to a picture which has been widely publicized, +probably in every single community of our country, allegedly showing +Lee Harvey Oswald holding in his hand a rifle which has been described +in at least one publication, Life magazine, as the weapon with which he +assassinated President Kennedy. + +I would like to indicate to the Commission at this time that the +pictures which have been distributed throughout the country included +doctored and forged photographs. I would like to present evidence to +the Commission at this time in that regard. + +I ask the Commission if it does conclude that the photographs have been +doctored, whether it will consider determining whether or not a crime +has been committed, or an effort has been made to submit evidence to +the Commission members, though not directly through the press, from +magazines, which evidence---- + +The CHAIRMAN. I didn't get that last sentence--something about the +Commission? + +Mr. LANE. I am asking the Commission if it does conclude that the +pictures have been doctored, to consider investigating the method by +which the doctoring took place, who was responsible, and whether or not +an effort has been made to influence the members of the Commission, +while not directly, through the publication of this picture, which +certainly has been circulated very widely throughout our country. + +The CHAIRMAN. You may be sure, Mr. Lane, that anything you present in +that regard will be thoroughly considered by the Commission. + +Mr. LANE. Thank you, sir. + +I would like to offer the February 21, 1964 issue of Life magazine. + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you mark that, Mr. Reporter, please, the next number. + +Mr. LANE. A picture appears on the entire cover of Life magazine, and +an identical picture appears in the interior pages, at page 80. The +caption on the cover reads, "Lee Oswald with the weapons he used to +kill President Kennedy and Officer Tippit." + +I think it is quite plain from looking at both of the pictures that +there appears on the rifle, what appears to be a rifle in the left hand +of Lee Harvey Oswald, a telescopic sight. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Lane, we will mark that Exhibit No. 334. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 334, for +identification.) + +Mr. LANE. Next I would like to offer a picture which is a glossy +8-1/2-by-11 picture, of a photograph published in the New York Times, +secured by the New York Times from the Associated Press. + +Representative FORD. Is there any verification of the fact that that is +as you have identified it? + +Mr. LANE. That is what--a picture secured---- + +Representative FORD. From the New York Times, which in turn had +acquired it from the Associated Press? + +Mr. LANE. Well, that is a statement which I have made under oath, and +it can be verified with the New York Times. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 335 that you are just referring to, Mr. +Lane. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 335, for +identification.) + +Mr. LANE. I suggest that is the identical picture with the one +published on the cover of Life magazine, Exhibit 334, in every respect, +including the creases in the trousers, the background, with the +exception of the rifle in the hands of Oswald, which appears to have no +telescopic scope in Exhibit 335. + +In addition, there clearly has been some other doctoring of the +photograph around the head of Lee Harvey Oswald, and the trees and +other background material over his left shoulder have been removed from +the Associated Press picture, but are present in the Life magazine +picture. + +Shadows and fenceposts which can be observed between the legs of Lee +Harvey Oswald in Exhibit 335 have been removed in the Life magazine +picture. I would like to offer this picture as the next exhibit. + +Mr. RANKIN. That will be marked Exhibit 336. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 336 for +identification.) + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us what that is, Mr. Lane? + +Mr. LANE. Yes; 336 is an 8-1/2-by-11 glossy photograph of a picture +appearing in Newsweek magazine, March 2, 1964, credited by Newsweek +magazine to the Detroit Free Press. I would suggest that that is an +identical picture with the other two pictures in every respect, except +that it has no telescopic sight on the rifle, and there is a great deal +of metallic materials present on that rifle clearly not present in the +other two pictures. + +The CHAIRMAN. Did you say metallics? + +Mr. LANE. Metallics. + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us what you mean by that, Mr. Lane? + +Mr. LANE. Yes. Just below the hand, the left hand of Lee Harvey Oswald, +there is clearly visible a series of pieces of metal, allegedly part of +the rifle, which are in no way clear--which are in no way present in +the other pictures. + +The CHAIRMAN. I see. + +Mr. LANE. To make that clearer, I would like to offer Exhibit 337, +which is an enlargement of the picture 335, the New York Times picture. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 337, for +identification.) + +Mr. LANE. This enlarges the area on the rifle just below what is +allegedly Oswald's left hand. It clearly shows an absolute absence of +all of the metallic material present in the Newsweek photo, 336. + +This is a front page of the New York Journal American dated February +18, 1964, which is an identical picture with the one published in +Life magazine, Exhibit 334, and the credit lines appearing on that +publication indicate that the picture has been secured from the +Associated Press through the Detroit Free Press. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 338, for +identification.) + +Mr. LANE. That picture has a telescopic sight, and is not the picture +in terms of the metal material on the rifle which Newsweek stated they +secured through the Detroit Free Press, and is not the picture without +the telescopic sight which the New York Times states that it secured +through the Associated Press. In any event, I would like to submit a +picture procured from Worldwide Photos. + +Mr. RANKIN. 339. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 339, for +identification.) + +Mr. LANE. This is allegedly a picture taken in the Dallas Police +Station, showing the alleged murder weapon. + +The CHAIRMAN. That is No. 339, Mr. Lane? + +Mr. LANE. Yes, sir, and I would call the Commission's attention to the +curved line of the stock present in Exhibit 339, and obviously absent +from every other picture, indicating that in no event is the rifle +allegedly in the hands of Lee Oswald, in Exhibits 334 through 338 +comparable to the alleged murder weapon as shown in the Dallas police +station. + +And should the Commission decide to investigate the obviously doctored +pictures that have been circulated so widely in our country, I would +refer the Commission investigators to the Times Picayune of New +Orleans, published on November 24, 1963, in which an Associated Press +story indicated that the Dallas police chief, Jesse Curry, stated that +he had in his possession photographs found in the home of Lee Harvey +Oswald's Russian-born wife which linked Oswald with the rifle used +in the assassination of President Kennedy. Curry said in the article +attributed to Curry---- + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you wish to make that a part of the record? + +Mr. LANE. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. That will be Exhibit 340. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 340 for +identification.) + +Mr. LANE. The article attributes a statement to Curry indicating that +he, the Dallas Police Chief, found the pictures in the suburban Irving, +Tex., home in which Marina Oswald lived, and stated that Mr. Curry had +said that the pictures will be used in evidence in Oswald's murder +trial. This was published, I assume, prior to the time that Oswald was +himself killed on that day. + +Representative FORD. Would the date of the paper be on the back side? + +The CHAIRMAN. It is on the front. November 24th. + +Mr. LANE. I would like to offer this as an exhibit. + +Mr. RANKIN. This is marked Commission Exhibit 341. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 341, for +identification.) + +Mr. LANE. Exhibit 341 is a page or portion of a page of the New York +Times, on Sunday, December 8, with a picture of the alleged murder +weapon, secured, according to the credit line under the picture, from +the United Press International, indicating clearly that that rifle is +not the rifle allegedly being held by Mr. Oswald in any of the pictures +so widely circulated throughout our country. + +Mr. RANKIN. On what do you base that last conclusion, Mr. Lane? Would +you point out to the Commission the differences as you see them? + +Mr. LANE. Yes; the reference of the stock. The stock has a clearly +curved and bent line in this picture. + +Mr. RANKIN. That is in Exhibit 341? + +Mr. LANE. Yes, and it is present in none of the pictures of Oswald +holding the rifle; 336, for example, in Newsweek magazine shows almost +a straight stock. Some of them show even an absolutely straight stock. + +Exhibit 335 from the New York Times shows a perfectly straight +stock--which is not only a stock unlike this particular Italian 6.5 +millimeter carbine, but is a stock I believe unlike any rifle stock +produced during the 20th century, and possibly the 19th century, +anywhere. Rifle experts seem to agree that every stock must have in +it some break, so that it is possible to place your hand around the +rifle while your finger holds the trigger. And there is no break in +the doctored photographs, in the stock portrayed on the doctored +photographs. + +I have checked many rifle catalogs. This is not my field, and I don't +qualify as an expert. But I have checked many rifle catalogs, and have +only seen rifles with a break where the stock becomes narrow enough for +one's hand to grasp it while pulling the trigger. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is that the basis of your opinion that you have just given, +that it doesn't have a break in it, and that other rifles for any +period later than you have described do? + +Mr. LANE. Well, several persons who have described themselves as rifle +experts have made that statement to me. + +Mr. RANKIN. Who are those? + +Mr. LANE. I believe I have some of their names here. I don't have the +names of those who have called, but I can secure that at our first +break by a telephone call to my office. + +Mr. RANKIN. Would you furnish that then? + +Mr. LANE. Surely. In any event, whether there was another rifle or +not, the rifle portrayed in the picture is clearly--in the picture in +which Oswald is allegedly holding the rifle--clearly is not the rifle +allegedly claimed to be the murder weapon. I wonder if I might ask the +Commission if it might produce the rifle now, so that we might compare +the actual rifle with the pictures. + +The CHAIRMAN. We will do that in due course. But we don't have the +rifle here now, Mr. Lane. We will make the proper comparisons, you may +be sure, with experts. + +Mr. LANE. Now, on another peripheral matter--unless there are any +further questions in relation to this matter---- + +Mr. RANKIN. No, you may proceed. Do you have negatives of these +pictures you have produced? + +Mr. LANE. No. I am glad you asked that question, because I can now +relate to you about a conversation that I had 2 or 3 days ago with +a Mr. Dirksen, who is on the photo desk of the Associated Press. I +called Mr. Dirksen and asked him for a glossy of the picture which the +Associated Press sent out over the wire service. + +Mr. RANKIN. Could you identify Mr. Dirksen a little more clearly? + +Mr. LANE. He just told me he was employed. I called the Associated +Press in New York City and asked for the photo desk, Mr. Dirksen +answered and said he was employed there. I asked him what his specific +position was there, and he declined to give me that information. He +said he didn't think it was relevant. + +In any event, I asked him if he could secure for me a glossy, a glossy +copy of the picture sent by the Associated Press over the wires. And +I described the picture as the one of Oswald allegedly holding the +murder weapon in his left hand, and having on his right hip a pistol, +allegedly the pistol with which he slew Officer Tippit. + +Mr. Dirksen stated to me that he could not make a glossy of that +picture available to me and I pointed out to him that in the past the +Associated Press had been most cooperative when I asked for pictures, +and he said, "Yes, we sent a whole batch up to you last week, didn't +we?" I said, "Yes, you did, I appreciated that. I wonder why this +picture is being treated differently from other pictures." He said, +"This is not a normal picture and this is not the normal situation." + +I asked him what he meant by that. He explained that there was a +special contract--he did not have all the details, he said, because +he is not one of the persons who was involved in drafting the +contract--but there was a special contract between the Associated Press +and the source of this picture, and they agreed, the Associated Press +agreed in this contract that they would not make a glossy available +to anyone, that they would send the pictures out only to their +subscribers, and that no one else would be allowed to see the picture. + +I said if that was the understanding, I certainly would not wish to +have them breach their agreement, and asked if instead he would make +the name of the source known to me, so that I might go directly to the +source and see if I might secure the picture in that fashion. He stated +he could not do that, because one of the other stipulations in the +contract would be that they could not reveal the name of the source of +the picture. + +I discussed this with an employee of the New York Times thereafter, +since I knew that the New York Times was a subscriber to the services +made available by the Associated Press. + +Mr. RANKIN. Could you identify that employee, please? + +Mr. LANE. No, I am not going to be able to discuss sources, obviously, +here, I am sorry. + +But this employee indicated to me thereafter that an inquiry had been +made by the New York Times to the Associated Press along the same lines +as the inquiry which I had made, in terms of trying to determine the +source of the Associated Press picture. And I was informed by this +employee of the New York Times that the Associated Press declined to +name the source of the picture, even when the New York Times made a +request. Therefore, I do not have the negative, and I do not know the +source of the picture. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is that true with regard to all of the pictures that you +produced? + +Mr. LANE. My office called Life magazine, and asked someone at Life +magazine on the photo desk, the editorial department, if a picture +could be made available and they stated that they would not make a +glossy available--it was their policy in reference to all pictures in +their possession. + +Those are the only inquiries I made with reference to the source of the +pictures. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now you may proceed. + +Mr. LANE. Yes. I would like to raise one other peripheral matter before +going into the evidence, if I might. That is, I would like to call to +the attention of the Commission this article, and ask that it be marked +as an exhibit. + +Mr. RANKIN. That has been marked Commission Exhibit 342. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 342, for +identification.) + +Mr. LANE. Thank you. + +This is an article appearing in the New York Journal American Sunday, +February 23. + +Mr. RANKIN. This consists of two separate pages, does it not? + +Mr. LANE. It does--the first page being a masthead and front page, +headline from the Journal American, dated Sunday, February 23, 1964, +and the second page containing a portion of the front page of the +Journal American on that date, and a portion of page 15, the continued +story of the Journal American on the same date. + +This is an article written by Bob Considine, who enjoys a reputation +for being an excellent reporter. Mr. Considine states in his article +that an eyewitness to the shooting of Officer Tippit by the name of +Warren Reynolds was himself recently shot through the head by a man +with a rifle. + +Now, I don't believe that it is alleged that Reynolds actually saw the +person pull the trigger which sent the bullets at Officer Tippit. As +I understand it, Mr. Reynolds has stated that he, Reynolds, heard the +shot, the shooting, left his office and saw a man running away, placing +new shells into a pistol as he ran away. And Mr. Considine indicates +that Reynolds thereafter identified Oswald as the person who was +running from the scene. + +This article indicated that during January, Mr. Reynolds was himself +shot through the head with a rifle, and that he is in the hospital--I +believe he was in the hospital at that time. I don't know what the +state of his health is at the present time. + +Mr. Considine indicates that a person was picked up in the Dallas area +and charged with the shooting, but that someone who Mr. Considine +refers to as "his girl"--I assume he is making reference to the +gentleman who was charged with the attack upon Reynolds--testified +in such a fashion, and took a lie detector test, so that the person +charged with the crime was released. + +This person, Betty Mooney MacDonald, who helped to free her friend, +according to Mr. Considine, herself had worked as a stripper in the +Carousel Club in Dallas, owned by Jack Ruby. + +Two weeks before this article was written, Miss MacDonald was herself +arrested for a fight with her roommate, and the week before the article +was written, Mr. Considine states she hanged herself in her cell. + +I would request the Commission to investigate into these series of most +unusual coincidences, to see if they have any bearing upon the basic +matter pending before the Commission. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be introduced as are all of these pictures, +admitted. + +(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission +Exhibits Nos. 334 to 342, were received in evidence.) + +Mr. LANE. In the course of my investigation, I have come across some +material which would be relevant only if I was first able to examine +the rifle, quite frankly. I wonder if that might be able to be +accomplished sometime during the day? + +The CHAIRMAN. During the day? + +Mr. LANE. Today, if possible. + +The CHAIRMAN. Well, I think not, because we don't have it. But we will +make it available to you, though, at the very first opportunity, Mr. +Lane. + +Mr. LANE. Fine. Then I will reserve my comment in reference to the +rifle for that occasion. + +The CHAIRMAN. You may. + +Mr. LANE. Thank you. I would like to, on behalf of Lee Harvey Oswald, +make this information available to the Commission. + +It, of course, has been alleged by the chief of police of Dallas, and +by the district attorney of Dallas that Oswald was present on the +sixth floor of the Texas Book Depository Building during the very +early afternoon of November 22, 1963, and that from that area he fired +an Italian carbine, 6.5 millimeters, three times, twice striking the +President of the United States, wounding him fatally, and injuring the +Governor of Texas by striking him with a bullet, on one occasion. + +The physician who signed the death certificate of the President +pronouncing him dead was Dr. Kemp Clark, whose name appeared on the +official homicide report filed by the Dallas Police Department, and +attested to by two police officers. + +On the 27th of November, the New York Times reported, "Dr. Kemp Clark, +who pronounced Mr. Kennedy dead, said one bullet struck him at about +the necktie knot, 'It ranged downward in his chest and did not exit' +the surgeon said." + +On the same day the New York Herald Tribune stated, "On the basis of +accumulated data, investigators have concluded that the first shot +fired as the Presidential car was approaching, struck the President in +the neck, just above the knot of his necktie, then ranged downward into +his body." + +According to Richard Dudman--Mr. Dudman is the Washington +correspondent, as I am sure you all know better than I, for the St. +Louis Post-Dispatch--according to him, the surgeons who attended the +President while he was at the Parkland Memorial Hospital, described +the wound--were in agreement in describing the wound in the throat +as an entrance wound. The St. Louis Post-Dispatch on December 1 +carried a rather long and involved story by Mr. Dudman, recounting his +conversations with the physicians who were treating the President on +the 22d at the Parkland Memorial Hospital. + +Dr. Perry explained that he began to open an air passage in the +President's throat in an effort to restore his breathing, and he +explained that the incision had been made through the bullet wound in +the President's throat--since that was in the correct place for the +operation, in any event. Dr. Perry, according to Mr. Dudman, described +to him the bullet hole as an entrance wound. + +Dr. Robert N. McClelland, who was one of the three physicians who +participated in that operation, later stated to Mr. Dudman, "It +certainly did look like an entrance wound." + +He went on to say that he saw bullet wounds every day in Dallas, +sometimes several times a day, and that this did appear to be an +entrance wound. + +One doctor made reference to the frothing of blood in the neck wound. +The doctor said, "He is bubbling air." Two of the doctors, Drs. +Peters and Baxter, inserted a tube into the right upper part of the +President's chest, just below the shoulder, to reexpand the lungs, and +to keep them from collapsing. + +Dr. Jones and Dr. Perry inserted a similar tube on the left portion of +the President's chest. + +The activity was necessitated because the bubbling air was the first +clue that they had that the President's lung had been punctured. + +The prosecuting authorities, confronted with what seemed then to be +evidence that the President had been shot from the front, in the +throat---- + +The CHAIRMAN. Are you reading now, Mr. Lane? + +Mr. LANE. No, I am just making reference to this. That is not a quote. + +The CHAIRMAN. It is not a quote. You are just paraphrasing what was in +this article of Mr. Dudman's? + +Mr. LANE. No, I am leaving Mr. Dudman now, and going on to statements +made by the prosecuting authorities. I will submit quotations--I will +try to remember to place quotation marks when I have a quotation. + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes, all right. + +Mr. LANE. The authorities who were confronted with what seemed to be +irrefutable evidence that the President had been shot in the front of +the throat, concluded that the Presidential limousine was approaching +the Book Depository Building when the first shot was fired, because +it seems at the very outset a theory was developed by the prosecuting +authorities that Oswald was on the sixth floor of the Book Depository +Building, that he was the assassin, and that he acted alone. + +I think that the record and an examination of the activities of the +Dallas police, and the Dallas district attorney's office, will show +that the only area where they have been consistent from the outset was +once this theory was enunciated, they stayed with the theory, and they +were devoted to the theory, regardless of the discovery of new evidence +and new facts. + +For example, the New York Times stated on November 26, 1963, "The known +facts about the bullets, and the position of the assassin, suggested +that he started shooting as the President's car was coming toward him, +swung his rifle in an arc of almost 180°, and fired at least twice +more." At that time, the prosecution case had already been developed in +terms of the theory that Oswald was the assassin and that Oswald acted +alone. + +There were newspaper pictures published in many portions of the country +showing the Textbook Depository Building on Houston Street where the +Presidential limousine approached the Book Depository Building, and Elm +Street, where after the limousine made a sharp left turn it continued +until it reached the underpass directly ahead. + +And in these newspapers, there were superimposed dotted lines showing +the trajectory of the three bullets, showing that the first bullet was +fired while the Presidential car was still on Houston Street, still +approaching the Book Depository Building. + +However, it soon became essential for the prosecution to abandon that +theory, because the eyewitnesses present, including Governor Connally, +and Mrs. Connally, stated that the limousine had already made a left +turn, had passed the Book Depository Building at the time that the +first shot was fired. + +In essence, then, the prosecution remained with the theory that Oswald, +while acting alone, shot the President from the front from the back. + +However,---- + +Mr. RANKIN. I don't understand that. + +Mr. LANE. I don't understand that either, but this was the theory of +the prosecution--that the President had--it had been conceded at that +time that the President had been shot in the front of the throat. +However, the evidence then developed indicated that the Presidential +limousine had already passed the Book Depository Building, and the +President was not facing the Book Depository Building when the first +shot was fired. At that time, Life magazine explains it all in a +full page article entitled, "An End to Nagging Rumors, the 6 Crucial +Seconds." + +And Life conceded that the limousine was some 50 yards past Oswald when +the first shot was fired, and that the shot entered the President's +throat from the front, but explained that the President had turned +completely around and was facing the Book Depository Building when the +shot was fired. + +But that theory, however, could not---- + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you have the date of that article? + +Mr. LANE. That was December 6, Life magazine. The full page article was +entitled "End to Nagging Rumors, the Six Critical Seconds." + +The problem---- + +Senator COOPER. May I ask a question there--just to clarify? Did you +say that in this article that Life said that the late President had +turned around and was facing the Book Depository Building when the shot +was fired? + +Mr. LANE. Yes, Senator. The trouble with that theory, however, which +was enunciated by Life, and from where they secured it I do not +know, but they certainly were in Dallas very much in evidence on the +scene--was that the week prior to then Life magazine itself printed +the stills of the motion pictures, and in those stills, with Life's +own captions, it was quite plain that the President was looking almost +completely forward, just slightly to the right, but almost forward, and +certainly not turned around when the first shot was fired. And so the +stills printed in Life's own publication a week before they enunciated +this theory proved that the Life theory was false. + +In addition to this, persons present on the scene, such witnesses as +Mrs. Connally and the Governor of Texas, indicated that the President +was looking almost straight ahead. And I believe that Mrs. Connally +stated that she had just made a statement to the President, tragically +enough, something about, "You cannot say the people of Dallas have not +given you a warm welcome today," and he was about to respond when the +first bullet struck him. + +In order for the prosecution to remain with the theory in the light +of the new evidence that Oswald was the assassin and he acted alone, +something would have to give, and it became plain that the third try +would have to result in a new examination of the medical testimony. + +Mr. Dudman stated that the doctors at Parkland Hospital, who had, of +course, this vital evidence to offer, were never questioned about the +vital evidence by the FBI or by the Secret Service, and that it was not +until after an autopsy had been performed at Bethesda, that two Secret +Service agents, armed with that report, journeyed down to the Parkland +Hospital and talked to the doctors, for the purpose of explaining to +them that the new medical testimony and evidence indicated they were +all in error at the outset. And, eventually, that was the position +agreed to by the physicians, that they all had been in error when they +stated that it was an entrance wound in the throat. + +Physicians seem to agree that a short period of time after death, as +a result of the deterioration of tissue, it is much more difficult to +examine wounds to determine if they are entrance wounds or exit wounds. + +In addition to this, according to Mr. Dudman in the Post Dispatch +there had been an operation performed on what the doctors thought then +was an entrance wound; therefore, it would seem altering the wound in +the throat so that it would probably be more difficult to determine +if it were an entrance or an exit wound, after the operation had been +completed. + +However, I do not know, of course, what is in the autopsy report--very +likely you have seen that report--but portions of it, whether +accurately or inaccurately, have been leaked to the public through +the press. And the portion which has been leaked to the press, to the +public through the press, in reference to the wound in the President's +throat, indicated that the bullet struck the back of the President's +head, and either a fragment of the bullet or a fragment of bone from +the President's head exited at the throat. + +If this were so, while it could explain perhaps the wound in the +throat, it would be difficult to understand why this was not apparent +to the doctors in the Parkland Hospital, particularly in view of the +fact that it would indicate that the path of the bullet ran from the +top of the head down to the throat, not from the throat down to the +back of the chest, a very different path entirely. + +And since Dr. Perry indicated that he inserted a tube into the +President's throat following the bullet wound, it would be difficult to +understand how he was not aware of the path of the bullet, when it was +absolutely in the opposite direction from the one he thought it was in +when he inserted the tube. + +Most remarkable of all, though, is that if the bullet entered the top +of the head, and a portion of it or a portion of bone exited from the +throat, the collapse of the lungs and the frothing of air at the throat +are both indications of a punctured lung--it would be difficult to +explain by that particular bullet's path. + +I think that an openminded investigating and prosecuting agency would +have found, at the outset, in view of the medical evidence available +at the outset, that the President was shot from the front while +facing slightly to the right, and after passing the book depository +building--an openminded investigating body in Dallas, the district +attorney's office or the police, or others who were associated in that +investigation, might have considered abandoning their theory that +Oswald was the assassin and that he acted alone, and might have been +led by the factual data to investigate in other areas as well--clearly +something that they did not do. + +I have been informed by reporters, for example, that--reporters from +foreign countries covering the trial, that some of them were very +concerned about the fact that they would now not be able to leave +Dallas, that clearly the airports would be closed, there would be +roadblocks placed on many of the streets, the trains would be stopped +or searched, in order that the assassin or those who assisted him, +or those who assisted the assassins, might be prevented from readily +leaving the entire area. + +I am informed by the reporters in the area that there were no such +roadblocks, that planes continued to leave, trains continued to leave, +and that the prosecution continued with its theory that Oswald was the +assassin, that he acted alone, and they had secured his arrest, and +there was nothing more to be done other than to prove as conclusively +as possible, utilizing the press as we know, and the television, and +the radio media for that purpose. + +And while I am on this question, I wonder if I might ask the Commission +to give consideration to--although I don't believe that it is +present in any of the six panels which have been established by the +Commission--but to give consideration nevertheless to the 48 hours +in which Oswald was in custody, in reference to what happened to his +rights as an American citizen, charged with a crime in this country. + +The statement by the National Board of the American Civil Liberties +Union, that had Oswald lived he could not have secured a fair trial +anywhere in this country. + +The CHAIRMAN. You may be sure, Mr. Lane, that that will be given most +serious consideration by the Commission, and the Commission has already +appointed as an act in that direction the President of the American +Bar Association, with such help as he may wish to have, to make an +investigation of that very thing. I assure you it will be done by the +Commission. + +Mr. LANE. Getting back to the evidence, Mr. Chief Justice, the +spectator closest to President Kennedy, a Mrs. Hill, who was a +substitute teacher in the Dallas public school system, stated to me +that she was in her view the closest spectator to the President, and +was standing alongside a Mary Moorman, who resides in Dallas. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you have the date of this interview, Mr. Lane? + +Mr. LANE. It was within the last week. She stated to me that she was +the closest spectator to the President, she and her friend, when the +President was struck by a bullet. She said that she heard some four to +six shots fired. + +Now, she was standing on the grass across the--across Elm Street, +across from the Texas Book Depository Building. She said that in +her--it is her feeling that all of the shots, the four to six shots, +came from the grassy knoll near the triple overpass which was at that +time directly in front and slightly to the right of the Presidential +limousine, and that in her view none of the shots were fired from the +Book Depository Building which was directly across the street from her, +and which was to the rear of the Presidential limousine. + +She said further that after the last shot was fired, she saw a man run +from behind the general area of a concrete facade on that grassy knoll, +and that he ran on to the triple overpass. + +She told me that standing alongside of her was Mary Moorman, who took +a picture of the President just a brief moment before the first shot +was fired, and that agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation took +the film from Miss Moorman, and gave her a receipt, which she still has +in her possession, but that she has not been able to see the picture, +and that it is possible that the picture included the entire Book +Depository Building, taken just precisely a second or less before the +shots were fired. + +Tom Wicker, who is a member of the New York Times White House staff, +who was the only New York Times reporter in Dallas when the President +was shot, stated in an article which appeared in the Saturday Review, +on January 11, 1964, "As we came out of the overpass, I saw a +motorcycle policeman drive over the curb, cross an open area, a few +feet up a railroad bank, dismount, and start scrambling up the bank." +Ronnie Dugger, who is the editor of the Texas Observer, a statewide +publication in Texas, stated in his publication on November 29, 1963, +and later stated to me in two different interviews material of the same +nature. + +I am now quoting from the publication: + +"On the other side of the overpass a motorcycle policeman was +roughriding across some grass to the trestle for the railroad tracks, +across the overpass. He brought his cycle to a halt and leapt from it +and was running up the base of the trestle when I lost sight of him." + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you give us the date of the paper that came from? + +Mr. LANE. Yes. That was the Texas Observer, November 29, 1963. That +statement has been confirmed by Mr. Dugger to me in two interviews in +Dallas. + +James Vachule, who is a reporter for the Fort Worth Star Telegram, +said, "I heard the shots, several, at the triple overpass." + +And Jerry Flemmons, reporting also for the Fort Worth Star Telegram, +on November 22, 1963, stated, "Kennedy was gunned down by an assassin, +apparently standing on the overpass above the freeway." + +Now, I spoke to a Mary Woodward, who is an employee of the Dallas +Morning News, and she stated that she was present with three coworkers, +all employees of the Dallas Morning News, and they were standing near +the--the base of the grassy knoll, perhaps 50 feet or so from the +overpass, with the overpass to their right, and the book depository +building to their left. And on November 23, 1963, the Dallas Morning +News ran a story by Miss Woodward, and I have since that time spoken +with Miss Woodward by telephone, and she has confirmed portions--the +entire portion which I will quote from now--in her conversation with me. + +That is, that as she and her three coworkers waited for the President +to pass, on the grassy slope just east of the triple overpass, she +explained that the President approached and acknowledged their cheers +and the cheers of others, "he faced forward again, and suddenly there +was an ear-shattering noise coming from behind us and a little to the +right." + +Here we have a statement, then, by an employee of the Dallas Morning +News, evidently speaking--she indicated to me that she was speaking on +behalf of all four employees, all of whom stated that the shots came +from the direction of the overpass, which was to their right, and not +at all from the Book Depository Building, which was to their left. + +Miss Woodward continued, "Instead of speeding up the car, the car came +to a halt. Things are a little bit hazy from this point, but I don't +believe anyone was hit with the first bullet. The President and Mrs. +Kennedy turned and looked around as if they, too, didn't believe the +noise was really coming from a gun. Then after a moment's pause there +was another shot, and I saw the President slumping in the car." + +This would seem to be consistent with the statement by Miss Hill that +more than three shots were fired. + +In addition to these statements, James A. Chaney, who is a Dallas +motorcycle policeman, was quoted in the Houston Chronicle on November +24, 1963, as stating that the first shot missed entirely. He said he +was 6 feet to the right and front of the President's car, moving about +15 miles an hour, and when the first shot was fired. "I thought it was +a backfire", he said. + +Now, Miss Hill told me that when she was questioned--put that word +unfortunately in quotation marks--by the U.S. Secret Service agents, +that they indicated to her what her testimony should be, and that is +that she only heard three shots. And she insisted that she heard from +four to six shots. And she said that at least one agent of the Secret +Service said to her, "There were three wounds and there were three +shells, so we are only saying three shots." And they raised with her +the possibility that instead of hearing more than three shots, that she +might have heard firecrackers exploding, or that she might have heard +echoes. + +Despite this type of questioning by the Secret Service, Miss Hill +continued to maintain, the last I spoke with her, about a week ago, +that she heard from four to six shots. + +Now, to the best of my knowledge, from my investigation, which has been +very severely limited by lack of personnel and almost total lack of +funds, and, therefore, is clearly not the kind of investigation which +is required here--but from this limited investigation, it seems that +only two persons immediately charged into the Texas Book Depository +Building after the shots were fired. They were an officer of the Dallas +Police Force, Seymour Weitzman, who submitted an affidavit to the +Dallas police office, in which he stated that he discovered the rifle +on the sixth floor of the Book Depository Building. + +There was one other gentleman who ran into the building, and that was +Roy S. Truly, who was and is, I believe, the director of the Book +Depository Building. + +However, Mr. Truly stated that he believed that the shots came from the +direction of the overpass and from the grassy knoll. And although he +was standing directly in front of the Book Depository Building, he did +not believe that the shots came from that building. + +Standing with him at the time of the assassination was O. V. Campbell, +who was the vice president of the Book Depository Building. + +In the Dallas Morning News on November 23, 1963, it was stated that +"Campbell says he ran toward a grassy knoll to the west of the building +where he thought the sniper had hidden." + +So we have two persons that we know of standing in front of the Book +Depository Building, and they both thought that the shots came from the +grassy knoll near the overpass. + +The police officer, Seymour Weitzman, submitted an affidavit to the +Dallas district attorney's office, he and Mr. Truly, as I indicated +a moment ago were the only two who charged into the Book Depository +Building when the shots were fired. + +Weitzman indicated in his affidavit--I assume you have the original of +that affidavit--that he ran "in a northwest direction, scaled the fence +toward where we thought the shots came from." + +He indicated "then someone said they thought the shots came from the +old Texas Building. I immediately ran to the Texas Building and started +looking inside." + +So even the two people who ran into the building indicated that they +did not believe the shots came from the building. + +Mr. Weitzman went into the building because someone whose name he +did not give in his affidavit told him to go into the building, and +then Truly explained that although he thought the shots came from the +general direction of the grassy knoll or the overpass in front of the +President's limousine, he saw this officer run into the building, of +which he is a director, and he felt that since he knew the building and +the officer did not, he should go in the building to assist the officer. + +From published accounts, and from my investigation, I can only find one +person who thought that the shots came from the building, and that was +the Chief of Police in Dallas, Jesse Curry, who said as soon as the +shots were fired, he knew they came from the building. From the Book +Depository Building. + +Now, of course, there were many persons present there whom I have not +quoted, to whom I have no access. + +Now, I spoke on several occasions with the reporter for the Fort Worth +Star Telegram, whose name is Thayer Waldo. Mr. Waldo was standing with +a police captain near the Dallas Trade Mart Building, which was the +building, public building, where the President was going to have spoken +that day. Mr. Waldo was awaiting his arrival, the President's arrival +there, when a sergeant who was seated in a police cruiser called the +captain over hurriedly to the police car. Mr. Waldo accompanied the +captain to the police car. And Mr. Waldo stated to me that he heard +the first bulletin which came over the Dallas police radio, and it was +"Bulletin. The President has been shot. It is feared that others in his +party have been wounded. The shots came from a triple overpass in front +of the Presidential automobile." + +So even the police, despite the Chief of Police's later assertion that +he knew that the shots came from the Book Depository Building, behind +the Presidential limousine, the first police radio broadcast indicated +that it was the police position at that time that the shots came from +the front, not from the rear. + +Now, Patrolman Chaney, who I made reference to a little earlier, +the motorcycle patrolman, stated that the Presidential car stopped +momentarily after the first shot. That statement was consistent +with Miss Woodward's statement in the Dallas Morning News, that the +automobile came to almost a complete halt after the first shot, and the +statement of many other witnesses as well. + +Mr. RANKIN. When was that statement made? + +Mr. LANE. That statement appeared in the newspaper I made reference to +before, the Houston Chronicle, on November 24, 1963. + +Mr. RANKIN. When you made an independent inquiry at any time, would you +tell us, Mr. Lane? + +Mr. LANE. Yes, I certainly shall do that. + +Now, I think one has to conjecture as to why the Secret Service agent +who was undoubtedly trained for this assignment, and particularly the +agent who was driving the Presidential limousine in Dallas, where +we were told that the greatest efforts ever to protect an American +President were going to be made that day, because of the previous +difficulties in Dallas, the attack upon our Ambassador to the United +Nations and the attack upon the then Senator Johnson, when he spoke in +Dallas in 1960--one would assume that the most qualified Secret Service +driver that could be secured would be driving that automobile. It is +difficult to understand why the automobile almost came to a complete +stop after the first shot was fired, if the shots were coming from the +rear. The natural inclination, it would seem, would be to step on the +gas and accelerate as quickly as possible. However, if the driver were +under the impression that the shots were from the front, one could +understand his hesitation in not wanting to drive closer to the sniper +or snipers. + +In addition, however, Roy Kellerman, who was in the front right-hand +seat of the automobile, who I am told was in charge of the Secret +Service operation that day, the director of the Secret Service not +being present in Dallas on that occasion--according to the pictures +printed in Life magazine, Mr. Kellerman looked forward until the first +shot was fired. Then he turned back, and looked at the President. He +immediately looked forward again, and was looking in the direction of +the overpass while the second shot was fired, and while the third shot +was fired. + +One would certainly expect that Mr. Kellerman was and is a trained +observer, who would not panic in such a circumstance, for which he has +received his training. + +The pictures I make reference to are those in Life magazine which I +referred to a little earlier in the afternoon. + +Senator COOPER. May I ask a question there, Mr. Chief Justice? + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes, go right ahead, Senator. + +Senator COOPER. This last statement you made, about the Secret Service +agent who turned, so that he was faced to the rear, toward the +President, and then turned forward--I didn't quite understand what you +deduced from that. + +Mr. LANE. I assumed that he was looking toward the sound of the shots. + +Senator COOPER. You mean when he turned to the rear, or turned ahead? + +Mr. LANE. Well, when the President was shot, and was struck he then +turned around, which I would imagine would be an ordinary response when +somebody in an automobile with whom you are riding has been shot. + +But immediately after that, before the second shot was fired, he turned +completely to the front, and was looking at the overpass during the +remainder of the time that the shots were fired. It would seem to +indicate to me that it is possible that Mr. Kellerman felt that the +shots were coming from the general direction in which he was looking. + +Mr. RANKIN. What do you base your statement on that the car stopped, +the President's limousine? + +Mr. LANE. The statement made by various witnesses, including Mr. +Chaney, a motorcycle policeman, Miss Woodward, who was one of the +closest witnesses to the President at the time that he was shot, and +others. I think that is the--I haven't documented that beyond that, +because that seemed to be so generally conceded by almost everyone, +that the automobile came to--almost came to a complete halt after the +first shot--did not quite stop, but almost did. And, of course, you +have the films, I assume, of the assassination and know more about that +than I do, certainly. + +Now, in reference to the rifle, there is on file--I assume that you +have it or copies of it--in the Dallas district attorney's office or +the police office in Dallas, an affidavit sworn to by Officer Weitzman, +in which he indicates that he discovered the rifle on the sixth floor +of the Book Depository Building at, I believe, 1:22 p.m., on November +22, 1963. + +Now, in this affidavit, Officer Weitzman swore that the murder +weapon--that the weapon which he found on the sixth floor was a +7.65 Mauser, which he then went on to describe in some detail, with +reference to the color of the strap, et cetera. + +Now, the prosecuting attorney, of course, took exactly the same +position, and for hours insisted that the rifle discovered on the sixth +floor was a German Mauser, adding the nationality. A German Mauser is +nothing at all like an Italian carbine. I think almost any rifle expert +will indicate that that is so. + +I have been informed that almost every Mauser--and I am not able to +document this, unfortunately, but I am sure that you have easy access +to rifle experts--that almost every German Mauser has stamped upon it +the caliber, as does almost every Italian carbine. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you know the difference between the two? + +Mr. LANE. Do I know the difference? + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. + +Mr. LANE. I know the difference between an Army M-l and an American +carbine--those are the only two weapons I fired--during the war. No, I +don't know anything about rifles, other than those two rifles, which I +used at one time. + +I think it is most interesting to note that when Oswald was arrested +we were informed immediately that he had an alias--his last name was +Lee in that alias--as well as a great deal of material about his +political background and activities on behalf of the Fair Play for Cuba +Committee, and his defection to the Soviet Union, et cetera. But the +alias was raised immediately. + +The following day, on the 23d, when it was announced by the Federal +Bureau of Investigation, that Oswald had purchased an Italian carbine, +6.5 millimeters, under the assumed name, A. Hidell, then for the first +time the district attorney of Dallas indicated that the rifle in his +possession, the alleged murder weapon, had changed both nationality +and size, and had become from a German 7.65 Mauser, an Italian 6.5 +carbine. And, further he indicated then for the first time that they +knew of another alias maintained by Lee Oswald. In addition to the +name Lee, which they discovered, they said, by going to the home where +he lived--the house where he had lived in Dallas, where he rented a +room, a rooming house, they discovered there he had secured the room +under the name Lee. Mr. Wade stated that on Oswald's person, in his +pocketbook, was an identification card made out to A. Hidell, and +I have seen pictures of this reproduced in either Time magazine or +Newsweek, or one of the weekly news magazines--I believe it was one or +the other--with a picture of Oswald appearing on this card, plainly +indicating that Oswald had the alias A. Hidell, to Mr. Wade. + +I think it is interesting that the name Lee as an alias was released +immediately, although some investigation was required to secure that +alias. But the name A. Hidell, was not released as an alias, although +that was present and obvious by mere search of Oswald's person when he +was arrested. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you give us the time of the release of the information +about the alias, A. Hidell? + +Mr. LANE. That was on November 23. + +Mr. RANKIN. And how about Lee? + +Mr. LANE. November 22. The first release of the name A. Hidell came +from the district attorney's office after the FBI had indicated that +Oswald had purchased an Italian carbine under that name. + +If I were permitted to cross-examine Mr. Wade, which evidently you have +decided that I shall not be permitted to do, and Officer Weitzman, I +would seek to find out how about the most important single element in +probably this case or any other murder case, physical evidence, the +murder weapon, in a case which I am sure is Mr. Wade's most important +case--how he could be so completely in error about this. + +Mr. Wade is a very distinguished prosecuting attorney, has been one for +some 13 or 14 years, and I believe was an agent of the Federal Bureau +of Investigation prior to that time. + +I would like to know how he could have been so wrong about something so +vital. + +Now, assuming that the rifle found on the sixth floor was an Italian +rifle, Italian carbine, one must wonder how it was possible for any +number of things to happen for it to be fired there three times and +strike the President in front of the throat, although he was past +that building, and for the noise, according to the witnesses of the +shooting, to have come from a different place entirely. + +But in addition to that, one must wonder if that rifle is capable of +the performance which the prosecuting authorities allege that it gave +on that day. An Olympic rifle champion, Hubert Hammerer, said that he +doubts that it could be done. + +Mr. RANKIN. Could you give us his address? + +Mr. LANE. He is not in the United States. The story appeared in the New +York Times. I don't have the exact date. + +Representative FORD. What nationality is he? + +Mr. LANE. I don't know. + +Representative FORD. Do you know when he was Olympic champion? + +Mr. LANE. No, I don't know that. I do know it probably was some time +after the Italian carbine was manufactured, since it is an extremely +old weapon, manufactured back in 1938, as I recall. There seems to be +an agreement that the period of time was between 5 and 6 seconds from +the first shot to the last shot. + +There is a serious question in the minds, I think, of persons who have +fired that pistol--that rifle--first of all, as to its ability to be +fired that quickly accurately with a telescopic sight, and secondly, in +reference to the ammunition which is available. Various persons have +tested various lots of ammunition. Someone from the National Rifle +Association told me that he tested more than 30 rounds, a little over +30 rounds of the Italian 6.5---- + +Mr. RANKIN. When you refer to these people, will you tell us the names +of any of them that you can? It might be of help to us. + +Mr. LANE. I should remember this gentleman, because I just spoke with +him. That is another name I am going to have to supply for you. + +Mr. RANKIN. Thank you. + +Mr. LANE. He is a member of the board of directors of the National +Rifle Association. He purchased for one of the television networks some +30 rounds, a little over 30 rounds, and told me that 20 of them did +not fire at all, and 6 of them were guilty of hanged fire, which is a +phrase I don't know anything about, but he tells me that means it did +not fire fully, and, therefore, could not be accurate. Therefore, a +very small percentage of the ammunition was of any value. + +Mr. Ed Wallace talked about making a similar test in the New York World +Telegram and Sun, in a feature article, and I think he said that he +went with an expert, and they got 20 rounds of this ammunition, and of +those 17 did not fire--only 3 fired. It was very old ammunition. + +Representative FORD. Who is Ed Wallace, and who is the individual that +Ed Wallace referred to? Do you have that information? + +Mr. LANE. I believe Mr. Wallace indicated that he was present when the +test was made. But it was an article appearing in the New York World +Telegram and Sun within a week after the assassination--from the 23d to +the 30th of November. And I can secure and mail to you a copy of that +article, if you prefer. + +While there may be some question as to whether or not a rifle expert +could secure such performance from a rifle, or whether or not one could +secure enough good ammunition to get such performance, I think there +is general agreement that only in the hands of a rifle expert could +one attempt to come close to that kind of shooting that it is alleged +Oswald did on November 22. + +The Times reported on November 23, "As Marines go, Lee Harvey Oswald +was not highly regarded as a rifleman." And you have in your files, +of course, the scorecard indicating Oswald's marksmanship or lack of +marksmanship while in the Marine Corps. + +In addition to that, you have the documents given to you by Marguerite +Oswald, Lee Oswald's mother, which contained a scorecard maintained by +Oswald while in the Marine Corps, showing his score in fast and slow +shooting at various different yardages, in reference to both an M-l, as +I recall, and an American carbine. Now, of course, it has been alleged +on occasion that Mr. Oswald practiced with his rifle, on occasion, on +weekends, at rifle ranges. + +Mrs. Paine, with whom Lee Oswald's wife lived for the 2 month period +preceding the assassination, and where Lee Oswald himself spent +weekends for that 2 months period preceding the assassination, told me +that Oswald could not have ever gone to a rifle range on a weekend, +since she can account for his whereabouts during that entire 2 month +period just preceding the assassination. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you give us the day of that conversation with Mrs. +Paine? + +Mr. LANE. I have had about five conversations with her. The first one +would be, oh, I believe, New Year's Day. I think that is the first +time--this year--I believe that is the first time that she made the +statement to me. She said she could account for Oswald's whereabouts +during that 2 month period on weekends, from Friday late afternoon, +when he left work in Dallas and arrived there in Irving, until early +Monday morning. + +She said the exception is during that time--she didn't watch him every +moment, of course--there might be exceptions when she went shopping for +half an hour, and he was left home to take care of the children, her +two children, his children. But that unless he ran out quickly into the +back yard with the rifle and shot and then quickly put the rifle away +while caring for three children, or four children, that it would be +impossible for him to practice with the rifle on weekends. + +Since it has been alleged that the rifle was in the garage during the +entire period of time, of course--that was in Irving, Tex., and he was +in Dallas, Tex.--it would have been impossible for him to practice +during the week while he was in Dallas, with that particular rifle. + +Of course one must zero in a rifle in order to be even fairly accurate +with it. One must practice with the specific weapon which one is going +to use, in order to have any accuracy, in any event. + +Now, I spoke with Dial M. Ryder, who is a gunsmith in Irving, Tex., +at the Irving Sport Shop, and he told me that he mounted a telescopic +sight on a rifle for a man named Oswald during October 1963. + +Now, unfortunately, he does not recall--that is around the deer +season, he informed me, and a lot of people are getting rifles +fixed or repaired or sights mounted on them during that time in the +Dallas-Irving area. And he does not recall, therefore, what this +gentleman named Oswald looks like. + +But he does know that a rifle was brought to him by someone whose name +now appears in this record as Oswald, and that he drilled three holes +in the rifle for a mount, telescopic mount. He said he had only seen +three rifles which required three holes for telescopic mount--a 303 +British Enfield, a 303 American Springfield army surplus rifle, or an +Eddystone, which is also an American rifle. He said, therefore, he did +not attach a telescopic sight to the Italian carbine, because he would +have only drilled two holes. + +His employer, I think his name is Greener, he told me, checked with all +the Oswalds they could find in the Irving area after this matter came +to their attention, and could not find anyone in that area--and they +called some people in Dallas also named Oswald--could not find anyone +named Oswald who brought the rifle in to him. + +I talked to Milton Klein, who is the owner of Klein's sporting +goods store in Chicago--Klein's Sporting Goods is the name of the +establishment, in Chicago. + +Mr. RANKIN. When was this? + +Mr. LANE. I spoke with him within the last 2 or 3 days. And he told +me that--he runs the mail-order house which sent the carbine, Italian +carbine, to Dallas, not to Oswald, but to A. Hidell, and that he sent +that out with the holes already bored in the Italian carbine, and +equipped with a telescopic sight which was already attached to the +rifle. + +Aguto Marcelli, who is a correspondent for an Italian publication which +appears physically very much to be like Life magazine, called Leuropeo, +stated to me that he had spoken with Mr. Klein, and Mr. Klein told him +that the FBI--"The FBI warned me to keep my trap shut." + +Mr. RANKIN. When was this? + +Mr. LANE. He told me this about 2 weeks ago. When I spoke with Mr. +Klein, about 3 days ago, 2 or 3 days ago, he indicated that he did not +want to discuss any aspect of this matter with me. And I asked him if +that was because he was told not to talk with anyone about this case, +and he said yes. + +And I said, "Who told you that?" + +He said, "The FBI agents told me, ordered me not to discuss this case." + +I pointed out to him that if he did not wish to discuss the case +with me, I would not force him to. There was no way that he would +be compelled to answer any of the questions that I asked him. But, +however, in our democratic society, the FBI cannot order anyone not to +discuss a case, and that such an order to him was not a valid order, if +he wanted to discuss the case with me--he could. + +So he did. And he told me what I informed you--that the FBI told him +not to discuss the case, and that he mailed this rifle with the holes +already bored and with the telescopic sight already mounted to someone +named A. Hidell. + +He also said that "No ammunition was purchased from me by Hidell at +that time or since." + +Senator COOPER. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question? + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Did he name any person with the FBI who told him not to +discuss the case? + +Mr. LANE. No; he did not. + +Senator COOPER. Can you identify--did he identify him in any way? + +Mr. LANE. He did not identify him. Earlier, perhaps before you arrived, +Senator, I made reference to a statement made by Mrs. Hill, who was +told by the Secret Service--I think perhaps you were here--that only +three shots were fired. And I asked her specifically if she could +identify that Secret Service agent, and she told me that she could not, +there was such tremendous confusion at that time, there were so many +agents of the FBI and Secret Service that she spoke to, that she did +not think she could. But possibly if she saw him, she might be able to +recognize him. + +I didn't go any further into that question, however, with Mr. Klein. He +seemed very reluctant to discuss that entire area--to discuss anything, +but particularly that area. + +I read in the Dallas Times Herald, on November 25, 1963, the statement +made by Mr. Wade, when asked what they had tying Oswald to the +"crime of the century" and his response was, according to the Dallas +Times Herald, "If I had to single out any one thing, it would be the +fingerprints on the rifle, and the book cartons which he used to prop +the weapon on." + +On the same day the World Telegram and Sun reported "Federal +authorities have concluded that no readable print was found on the +murder weapon when it was flown to Washington for laboratory studies." + +There were certain leaks that a fingerprint or a palm print was +discovered on the bolt of the rifle. If that is so, it would be +remarkable if it were a print belonging to anyone other than Captain +Fritz of the Homicide Squad in Dallas, because according to the +affidavit signed by Officer Weitzman, who discovered the weapon, and I +am quoting now from the affidavit on file--at that time on file with +the district attorney's office, "The time the rifle was found was 1:22 +p.m. Captain Fritz took charge of the rifle, and ejected one live round +from the Chamber. I then went back to the office after this." + +Now, you know if you have worked with that rifle that the--on most +Italian carbines that bolt is not worked too easily. One really has to +grab a hold of it and pull back. It would be unusual if a fingerprint +belonging to someone other than the person who did that survived. + +The first statement made by Mr. Wade in reference to the taxi driver +who he alleged--he, Wade, alleged took Oswald generally from this +scene, indicated that the driver's name was Daryl Click. + +Now, that statement was not made in the first hours of the arrest. That +statement was not made until after Chief Curry had announced to the +press in Dallas, on that day, November 24th that the case was closed, +there would be no further investigation--Oswald was the assassin, he +had acted alone, he was then dead. And as a result of the change in +policy, to reopen the case and have Mr. Wade assume a position in front +of the radio and television microphones and cameras of the Nation, on +that evening November 24, Mr. Wade then presented what he said was the +evidence "for you piece by piece." And part of the evidence which he +had secured was the proof that a taxi driver named Daryl Click drove +Oswald roughly from the scene to his home, to Oswald's home. + +When I was in Dallas--I suppose this was on January 2d, my first trip +there in reference to this matter--I spoke with a Mr. Roseboro of the +Teamsters Union--they have organized the taxi drivers in Dallas--and +asked him if he knew--if he could give me any information about a Daryl +Click. He said he did not have the name in his files, but Texas being a +right-to-work law State, it is possible, he said, that Mr. Click was a +driver but not a member of that union. He referred me to the personnel +department of the City Transportation Co., which he told me was the one +company monopoly running all the taxis in Dallas. + +I spoke with the City Transportation Co. personnel office, Mr. Pott, as +I recalled, who checked the records, and indicated to me that there was +no Daryl Click who drove a taxi in Dallas. + +Some time after Mr. Wade stated that Daryl Click was the taxi driver, +he then stated that a person by the name of William Whaley was the taxi +driver who took Oswald from the scene after he left the bus to his home. + +It is therefore alleged by the prosecution that Oswald, after firing +upon the Presidential limousine, walked the entire floor from the front +of the Book Depository Building to the rear of the warehouse, almost +to the extreme rear, where he hid the rifle, where it was found, and +then took the stairs at the rear of the Book Depository Building and +walked down four flights, until he arrived at the second floor, and +then he walked to the Coca-Cola machine, which was at the front of the +building, meaning he crossed the entire warehouse floor again, and +he purchased a Coca-Cola, and was sipping it when a police officer +arrived with a gun drawn, questioned him briefly. Mr. Truly explained +to the officer that Oswald worked there. And eventually Oswald left the +building, boarded a bus, then walked, after leaving the bus--walked two +blocks and entered Mr. Whaley's taxi, at exactly 12:30, according to +Mr. Whaley. The shots that killed the President were fired at 12:31. + +Now, there is on file in the district attorney's office--I assume you +have the original or copies of it--a report of a paraffin test taken +of Oswald, of both his hands and his face. The test proved, according +to Mr. Curry, and the statement that he made on Saturday, November +23, to the press that Oswald had fired the murder weapon. However, a +reading of the test indicates that one could come to a very different +conclusion. + +The test in reference to the face proved negative, indicating that +Oswald had not fired a rifle on November 22, 1963--although the test on +the hands showed positive--indicating, according to the person who did +the analysis, the kinds of patterns consistent with one having fired +a revolver. That was the statement on the test taken and conducted by +a Louis L. Anderson, on November 23, 1963, by the Dallas City County +Crime Investigation Laboratory. + +Now, it has, of course, been alleged that after Oswald shot the +President and took a bus and a taxi, and went home and got a jacket, +he then shot and killed Officer Tippit. The affidavit in the district +attorney's office indicates that a person saw a stopped police car, +walked up to the police car, leaned on it with his arms on the window, +or what would be a windowsill or window ledge of the automobile, and +then stepped back a step or two, the officer came out, and this person +shot Officer Tippit to death. + +The affidavit is peculiarly sparse in reference to the description of +the assailant, the man who killed Tippit, by an eyewitness who said she +was just 50 feet away. + +Her description of this person is found in two different portions of +the affidavit--he was young, white, male, and that is the entire +description present in the affidavit at that time. + +I spoke with the deponent, the eyewitness, Helen Louise Markham, +and Mrs. Markham told me--Miss or Mrs., I didn't ask her if she was +married--told me that she was a hundred feet away from the police +car, not the 50 feet which appears in the affidavit. She gave to me +a more detailed description of the man who she said shot Officer +Tippit. She said he was short, a little on the heavy side, and his +hair was somewhat bushy. I think it is fair to state that an accurate +description of Oswald would be average height, quite slender, with thin +and receding hair. + +Helen Markham said to me that she was taken to the police station on +that same day, that she was very upset, she of course had never seen +anyone killed in front of her eyes before, and that in the police +station she identified Oswald as the person who had shot Officer Tippit +in the lineup, including three other persons. She said no one pointed +Oswald out to her--she was just shown four people, and she picked +Oswald. + +She said--when I asked her how she could identify him--she indicated +she was able to identify him because of his clothing, a gray jacket and +dark trousers. And this was the basis for her identification--although +Oswald physically does not meet the description which she indicated. + +Representative FORD. When did you have this conversation with the +deponent? + +Mr. LANE. Within the last 5 days. + +Representative FORD. Some time in late February 1964? + +Mr. LANE. Or perhaps even early March, yes, sir. + +Now, I inquired--I told her that I was coming here today, and that I +was completing my investigation as Oswald's lawyer, and asked her if +she would discuss the matter with me, and she said she would. + +I asked her if anyone had asked her not to discuss this matter with me. +At first she seemed reluctant, and she said she was reluctant because +I called her at her place of employment, the Eat Well Cafe in Dallas. +I tried her at home many times before then, but her phone was always +busy. I believe it is a phone which is not her personal one, but is a +common phone shared by others in the building where she resides. + +I apologized for calling her at her place of employment. And she seemed +reluctant to talk to me. I asked if anyone had asked her not to talk +about this case with anyone. She said yes, she had been told by the +FBI, by Secret Service agents, and by Dallas police, all three groups, +not to discuss anything in relation to this case, and that by and large +she had not. + +I told her that somewhere it occurred to me that I had seen an article +in a newspaper in which she described the assailant of Oswald as short, +stocky, and with bushy hair--I'm sorry, the assailant of Tippit--as +being short, stocky, with bushy hair. And she said she did talk to a +reporter, she thinks, for one of the Dallas newspapers, the Dallas +Times-Herald or the Dallas Morning News--but that is the only time she +talked to anybody. + +I would like to call to the Commission's attention the entire brief +narrative of the entire case, as presented by the district attorney's +office at this point, or at least on the 24th, because it seems to me +to be so full of incredible happenings, that it would be very difficult +to submit such a story to a jury by a prosecution generally. + +If everything that the prosecution in this case says is true, one must +conclude that Oswald behaved in a very, very unusual manner from the +beginning to the end. + +He decided on Thursday, November 21, that he was going to assassinate +the President, and so he decided to go back to Irving, Tex., to secure +a rifle there, in order to carry out that purpose. He had on his person +some $13 when arrested, and almost $150 in cash in the top drawer +of his dresser--so we can assume that on Thursday, the 21st, he had +roughly that amount of money present. + +One can purchase a rifle for less than $13 in many stores in Dallas. +There is no question about that. By using a small portion of that $150, +he could have purchased a rifle absolutely superior to the Italian +carbine at home in Irving in many respects. And there are gun magazines +which have had editorials dwelling on this question, saying that if +Oswald did it with this weapon, and they do not move into the question +of whether or not he did, it was an absolute miracle, because no one +who knew anything about rifles would have chosen such a decrepit, +worthless rifle, as this Italian carbine, manufactured in 1938, for +which there is such pure ammunition. There are a series, I believe, of +editorials in gun magazines proving that Oswald, I think, as a matter +of pride, from a sportsman's viewpoint--that Oswald was in no way +associated with weapons and did not belong in that category, because he +could not have chosen such a weapon. + +Representative FORD. Could you give us the citations of one of these +magazines? + +Mr. LANE. Yes. One is called Gun Magazine. I do not recall the names. +But that is one of them. I am sure there was such an editorial in that +one. I will get the other one and mail those to you also. + +But I think there would have to be a more compelling reason for Oswald +not to go home and get that particular inferior rifle if he decided on +Thursday to kill the President. That was the only rifle in the whole +world probably that could be traced to him. One can purchase a rifle +in almost any community in this country, certainly in Dallas, without +any notoriety attaching to it, without giving one's name or address, or +having a serial number attached to a receipt kept by a store indicating +who owns that particular rifle. + +But here we have Oswald going home to get an inferior rifle, which +rifle is the only rifle in the whole world which can be traced to him, +which rifle he is going to leave behind as a calling card after the +assassination is complete. + +And so he goes home to Irving, Tex., and he gets this rifle, and +he wraps it up in paper, we are told, and brings it in to the Book +Depository Building. + +Now, the rifle can be broken down, I believe, from examining other +Italian carbines. But it would be not much shorter if it was broken +down--perhaps 6 or 7 inches shorter. Evidently, though, he did not do +that. + +So he took this rifle into the book depository building, which I +suggest, gentlemen, is a most remarkable thing. This was going to be +the greatest series of precautions in the history of the United States +to protect an American President. As we know now, and suspected then, +with very good reason, because of the nature of what had gone before, +with reference to public officials in Dallas--and here we have a +man who has defected to the Soviet Union, who has married a Russian +national, active on behalf of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, we +see a discharge less than honorable from the U.S. Marine Corps, who +was working in the building exactly on the Presidential route. Not +only is it on the Presidential route, but it is the building where the +automobile is going to have to clearly slow down because of the sharp +turn, sharp left turn, made right in front of the building. + +And despite all of these precautions--and I have been informed that +there were serious precautions taken in Dallas on that day by the +Dallas police and by others, and that persons who did no more publicly, +who did no more ever politically than to publicly speak in favor of +school integration, were followed that day as potential assassins in +Dallas. + +Nevertheless, Oswald, with that background, is permitted to walk into +the Book Depository Building, directly on the Presidential route, +carrying with him in his hand a full rifle. + +Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us the information on which you base this, +about anyone who merely spoke about school integration? + +Mr. LANE. Yes. A reporter for the Dallas Morning News told me that, +told me he was absolutely certain that was so. But before revealing +his name, I am going to have to call him and indicate I am going to do +that. I will be happy to do that. I am glad you are interested in that +matter, because I think it is a most important one. + +I suggest that the Federal Bureau of Investigation knew that Oswald +worked at the Texas Book Depository Building, which was on the +Presidential route. An FBI agent by the name of Hosty visited the home +of the Paines in Irving, Tex., sometime during September and October. +He visited that home on more than one occasion. Each of the at least +two times that he was there, possibly three but I am not certain--but +I was told he was there two times--I know I was told by Mrs. Paine +in the presence of her husband, Michael Paine, that Agent Hosty was +there at least on two occasions--each time he was there he asked +where Oswald was. Mrs. Paine explained to Agent Hosty, she told me, +that Oswald lived there only on weekends, and that during the week +Agent Hosty could find him at his room in Dallas, where he stayed +during the week, or during the daytime could find him at the Texas Book +Depository Building, where he was an employee. Nevertheless--and that +Oswald would not be found in Irving, Tex. at the Paine's home during +the week. Nevertheless, Agent Hosty returned again at least one more +time to the Paine home in Irving, during the week, during the day, +I believe--certainly during the week--and again asked about Oswald, +and again Mrs. Paine told him that he worked at the Book Depository +Building, he would not be there, she said, "As we told you last time +he won't be here during the week. During the daytime during the week +you can find him at his job at the Book Depository Building, and during +the nighttime during the week you can find him at his rooming house in +Dallas." + +Mr. RANKIN. Did she tell you whether she told him where the rooming +house was? + +Mr. LANE. I do not believe I asked her that question, and I don't +believe she mentioned that. + +Well, to go back to the prosecution narrative, or narrative according +to the facts presented by the prosecution, Oswald was on the sixth +floor, fired at the Presidential limousine, not as the automobile +approached the building, when the automobile came extremely close to +the building, so close that possibly even with that weapon one could +have shot occupants of the automobile from that window--but it is +alleged that Oswald never shot--it is now alleged that Oswald never +shot when the automobile was right outside of the building, but fired +when the automobile was some 75 yards beyond the building, when the +first shot was fired. + +Then Oswald walked the entire floor--or ran--the entire floor of the +warehouse to the rear of the building, placing the rifle in between +some boxes, but visible, so that one can see it when one arrives on +the floor; went to the rear stairs, walked down the four flights to +the second floor, then to the front of the building again, where he +purchased a Coca-Cola--made no effort to leave the building at that +time, evidently was going to wait until the building was surrounded by +police before leaving. + +He stayed at the top of the stairs near the Coke machine long enough so +that a police officer could come up and place a pistol near him, and +Roy Truly, the director, then intervened indicating that Mr. Oswald was +employed at the building at that time, and the officer then went on to +do other things in the building, including later on, I believe, to find +the rifle, if it was the same officer. + +Mr. Truly stated that Oswald was quite calm when the officer approached +him on the stairs. He said although he did seem a little concerned +about that pistol being stuck at him--but otherwise he seemed quite +calm at that time. + +Well---- + +Representative FORD. Where was this statement made, or testimony given? + +Mr. LANE. By Truly? + +Representative FORD. Yes. + +Mr. LANE. This was reported very widely in probably dozens or scores +of newspapers. The New York Times carried that, as did many other +publications--direct quotations from Truly who was interviewed. + +Then the next thing we heard from the prosecution in their opening or +closing statement to the television cameras, after Oswald was killed +was that--the next we hear of Oswald he was on a bus. Well, if Oswald +boarded the bus where the busdriver claims he did, then Oswald walked a +distance, in order to secure a bus which is going to take him directly +back to the Book Depository Building, which one would think he was +trying to flee after assassinating the President. + +I would refer you to his story by Hugh Ainsworth in the Dallas Morning +News published during the first week after the assassination. Hugh +Ainsworth and Larry Grove published on November 28 in the Dallas +Morning News--this is headed "Oswald Planned To Ride By Scene"--in +which there are statements from the busdriver that--named C. J. +McWatters, in which Mr. McWatters indicates that Oswald entered the bus +at Elm and Griffin, and further indicates that the bus was going to +go seven blocks further west and turn at Houston Street, exactly the +scene of the assassination, or at least the scene of the Texas Book +Depository. So Oswald traveled somehow some seven blocks in order to +secure a bus which is going to take him back to the place that he left. + +Now, although I have talked to Mr. Ainsworth, and he tells me that the +story is absolutely correct, and he questioned Mr. McWatters quite +thoroughly, and he will so testify, I believe, if he is asked--Mr. +Ainsworth will--and the affidavit which Mr. McWatters signed, or which +the busdriver signed, he does not state that Oswald walked seven blocks +and was going to get on a bus which was going to take him back. Indeed, +he states that he picked him up about Elm and Houston Street, at the +Book Depository Building. But the busdriver indicates that that story +in his affidavit is not true. He indicated that after the affidavit was +drawn and signed by him. + +Mr. RANKIN. What did you say was not true, Mr. Lane--which part of it? + +Mr. LANE. The affidavit. Mr. McWatters indicates that the affidavit in +which--let me start that again. + +There is an affidavit from the busdriver, which I am sure you have, +which shows that according to his statement Oswald came into the bus +at Elm and Houston Street. However, the busdriver since that time has +indicated that Oswald came into the bus seven blocks from Elm and +Houston Street, and had entered a bus which was going to take him +to Elm and Houston Street. Elm and Houston Street of course is the +location of the Book Depository Building. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, when you say since that time he has indicated that, +you mean to you or to someone else? + +Mr. LANE. To those two reporters for the Dallas Morning News with whom +I discussed--one of them--I discussed this specifically. And he said +that every word in that story is absolutely accurate, that he went to +see the busdriver, and had a prolonged interview with him, and went +over this in great detail with him. I think these two reporters will +testify as to what the busdriver told them in their interview with him. + +Mr. RANKIN. But they have not published this later story that you are +telling about. + +Mr. LANE. Yes, they have. That is the date that I gave you. The Dallas +Morning News, on Thursday, November 28, under the headline "Oswald +Planned To Ride By Scene". + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you want to leave that with us? + +Mr. LANE. I wonder if copies can be made of everything. + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. + +Mr. LANE. Then I will be happy to leave it. + +Mr. RANKIN. The story you were just referring to in the Dallas Morning +News is Commission Exhibit 343. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 343 for +identification and received in evidence.) + +Mr. LANE. That's correct. + +Well, now, Oswald allegedly had shot the President and has walked some, +talked to an officer, was calm, walked some seven blocks to find a bus +which was going to take him back to where he left, and then got off and +got--entered into a taxi after he had walked some two blocks from where +he left the bus. And this taxi he entered of course a minute before the +President was shot, if the taxi driver's log is accurate--after Oswald +had done all these things, after allegedly shooting the President and +the Governor. + +Then the taxi driver drove him directly past his own home, according to +the statement and--past Oswald's Dallas rooming house, until he arrived +at a scene about a half a mile beyond Oswald's house, where Oswald then +left the taxi, and then walked or ran home to secure a jacket--leaving +behind, although one would assume he is now giving considering to +escaping, the $150 in the dresser drawer, and taking just his jacket +with him. + +Mr. RANKIN. Which dresser drawer? + +Mr. LANE. This is in Dallas. + +Mr. RANKIN. Not at the Paine's? + +Mr. LANE. Not at the Paine's. I do not know if there was money at the +Paine's, but if he had money there, he left that behind the night +before, knowing he was going to---- + +Mr. RANKIN. But the $150 you are speaking of was in his rooming house +at Dallas. + +Mr. LANE. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any affidavit or information in support of that +statement about the $150? + +Mr. LANE. I do not have an affidavit. I have the statement of a +reporter who was told that--he was told this by a police officer who +was present when the money was found in the Dallas rooming house. I +have his statement. I can again ask for his permission to release that. + +Mr. RANKIN. Would you do that, please. + +Mr. LANE. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Mr. Chairman--perhaps it has been done, but I think it +would be proper in all cases in which he has referred to conversations +that he has had with individuals who made statements to him about some +aspect of this matter, and whose names he has not identified, that if +he could give to the Commission in all of those cases the names of the +individuals who gave him this information. + +Mr. LANE. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. I mean at sometime--don't you think? + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes, sir, it would be very helpful. + +Mr. LANE. Yes, sir. I think there are only two occasions where I +indicated I had to check the source, and one is the name of the rifle +association board member whose name I will be happy to give to you, but +I just do not recall it--my office has that. + +Senator COOPER. I did not remember that you gave the name of this +individual who told you that some policeman had told him that he had +been present when the $150 was found. + +Mr. LANE. Yes; that is one. + +Senator COOPER. Did you give that name? + +Mr. LANE. No; I did not give that name. + +Mr. RANKIN. You said you were going to ask him his permission. + +Mr. LANE. Yes; that's correct. + +Then Oswald took a taxi, which took him approximately a half mile +beyond his own house, his own room in Dallas, and he either walked or +ran back to get his jacket--although it was a very warm day in Dallas. +That day Mrs. Kennedy said later on that, reviewing the moment before +the President was shot--she said she saw this overpass ahead and looked +forward to being under it for a moment because there would be some +brief shade to protect them from the powerful sun that day. + +Well, Oswald ran home to get his jacket. He left the house, saw +a police car parked, went up to the police car, according to the +affidavit of Mrs. Markham, leaned on the car, and when the officer +came out, he shot him to death, and then he went to the movies. And in +the movies, and just before he went into the Texas Theatre, he was so +extremely agitated that a gentleman on the outside of the theatre--I +think his name is John Brewer--I am not certain--you have that +affidavit, I am sure--indicated that Oswald was acting very agitated, +the cashier made the same statement, and changing from seat to seat. +The police were called and he was arrested. + +Of course, one would wonder why Oswald, who might have thought that +he had made his getaway while in the Texas Theatre unobserved, would +become so extremely agitated, when just a moment after he allegedly +shot the President and the Governor, with the policeman charging up the +stairs, pointing a pistol at him, about to arrest him for these two +terrible crimes, he was calm, according to Mr. Truly, but he became +agitated only when he thought he had secured his getaway. + +I think those of us who saw, as we all did, I guess, Oswald on +television in his brief appearance would conclude that he seemed, even +while in custody and charged with these two crimes, somewhat calm under +the circumstances--calm when charged with the assassination, calm a +moment after killing the President, when a policeman pointed a pistol +at him, but agitated only in the theatre, and just before going to the +theatre when he might have concluded that he was then in the clear. + +I would just like to conclude on this note. + +I hope the Commission will give consideration to my request, which the +Commission has answered, but which again I would like at this time to +renew. That is, that I be permitted, at the request of Mrs. Oswald, +the mother of the accused defendant, really, before this Commission's +hearing, to represent his interests here, to have access to the +material which you have access to, and the right to present witnesses. + +It is not usual for an attorney representing a party to be given an +opportunity to testify, which is quite unusual--but rather to be given +the opportunity to present witnesses and to cross-examine them. It has +generally been my role in criminal cases. Never before have I testified +in behalf of a client. + +If it is the Commission's position that this is not a trial in any +respect, and therefore Oswald is not entitled to counsel, that is the +position with which I would like to respectfully offer a dissent. + +The fact that Oswald is not going to have a real trial flows only from +his death, and he is not responsible with that having taken place. +Every right belonging to an American citizen charged with a crime was +taken from him up to and including his life. + +I think now that that episode is completed, hopefully never to reappear +ever again in our history, or anything close to it--I think it would +be proper to permit him to have counsel before the Commission, counsel +who can function on his behalf in terms of cross-examining evidence and +presenting witnesses. If it is the Commission's position now that he is +entitled to counsel, and the Commission will appoint counsel, then I +ask the Commission to consider that the Constitutional right to counsel +involves the right to counsel of one's choice, or in the event of the +death of a party, to counsel of the choice of the surviving members of +the family. + +If Marina Oswald, the widow, sought to have counsel represent her +husband I would think--here--I would think that would cause a conflict +and a problem, if the widow and also the mother made the same request. +But as I understand it no request has been made by the widow, who +has indicated to the press that she believes her husband is guilty, +and through her former business agent, Mr. Martin, who I am told +was secured for her by the Secret Service as a business agent, she +indicated that even a trial which might prove he was innocent, she +would still be sure he was guilty, and has indicated since that time +no desire to my knowledge to secure counsel for her husband, her late +husband, before the Commission. + +I think, then, the mother would, in almost any jurisdiction, be the +next person to make a decision in this area, and the mother has made a +decision, as you know. She has retained me to represent the rights and +interests of her son. + +I think under those circumstances it would be proper for the Commission +to permit me to participate. + +This, of course, is not a jury trial. With all due respect to the +integrity and background of each of the members of the Commission, +I suggest that it is not the function of the trying body to appoint +counsel, or the jury to appoint counsel, but in our society it is just +the reverse; it is the function of defense counsel to participate in +determining who the jury should be. + +Many criminal lawyers, very noted counsel, would probably seek to +excuse certain--and again no disrespect at all is meant to the +background of members of this Commission--but defense counsel generally +seeks to excuse as jurors those who are in any way associated with +the Government in a criminal case. And here we have the Government +appointing the jury, and then the jury picking counsel, who also is +Government connected at this time. I in no way wish to raise the +question of the integrity of any of the members of the Commission +or counsel or anyone else, or their ability. But that truism about +equality has some meaning in terms of impartiality--everyone is +impartial to some people, and more impartial to other people. And +counsel, in order to function, I believe, must be totally independent +and totally committed to the responsibility of representing his client. + +But above all, he must be secured by someone who has the ability to +speak for the deceased, in this case his mother and his wife. And under +those circumstances, I renew my request that I be permitted to, at the +request of Lee Oswald's mother, who survives him--to function before +this Commission as counsel on his behalf. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Lane, I must advise you that the Commission, as you +already know, has considered your request and has denied it. It does +not consider you as the attorney for Lee Oswald. Now, this is not for +any discussion. We are not going to argue it. You have had your say, +and I will just answer. + +Lee Oswald left a widow. She is his legal representative. She is +represented by counsel. This Commission is cooperating with her in +any way she may request. If anyone else wants to present any evidence +to this Commission, they may do so. But it is the view and the +wish--the will of the Commission--that no one else shall be entitled to +participate in the work and the deliberations of the Commission. + +We asked you to come here today because we understood that you did have +evidence. We are happy to receive it. We want every bit of evidence +that you have. You may present anything that you wish to us. But you +are not to be a participant in the work of the Commission. I assume you +have some questions you would like to ask Mr. Lane, Mr. Rankin? + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes, sir. Do you have any affidavits that you would like +to submit to the Commission? I understood at one time you had some +affidavits. + +Mr. LANE. Well, I do have some affidavits. They are not originals--they +are photostatic copies of affidavits taken by the Dallas police and +on file in the Dallas district attorney's office. Now--including the +paraffin test which I made reference to. + +Now, if the Commission does not have copies of those, I would like to +be so informed and I will see what I can do. I assume the Commission +has copies of all those documents. + +Mr. RANKIN. Yes. Do you have anything beyond that that you care to +submit? + +Mr. LANE. I have the various statements which I have made reference to +from Mrs. Hill and Mrs. Markham, Mr. Klein, Mr. Ryder. But I have given +you the essence of those statements. If you are interested in pursuing +that, I think it might be best to call them. + +Mr. RANKIN. I am interested if there was anything beyond what you have +given us, Mr. Lane. And if you say you have given us the substance, +then I take it that is complete as far as it could be of assistance to +us, except our going directly to the witness. Is that what you have in +mind? + +Mr. LANE. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, do you have any witnesses that you would like to +present for the Commission? + +Mr. LANE. Well, I would like--I do not know that I would be able to do +that, frankly. + +Mr. RANKIN. Well, would you have any that you suggest that we should +interview, bring before the Commission, that you have not presented up +to this time in your testimony? + +Mr. LANE. No; there is no one who I know of other than those names I +have given, and two other persons whose permission I am going to have +to secure in reference to other matters, and hopefully they will be +willing to not only allow their names to be used, but to come forward +and testify, if you wish to hear them. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, is there any documentary evidence beyond which you +have submitted that you would like to submit to the Commission? + +Mr. LANE. Not beyond what I have submitted or made reference to. + +Mr. RANKIN. In regard to the paraffin that you have referred to, do +you have any particular materials or anything you want to refer the +Commission to? + +Mr. LANE. To that particular test taken by Mr. Anderson on November 23d? + +Mr. RANKIN. Anything beyond that? + +Mr. LANE. No; not at this time. + +Mr. RANKIN. Now, I understand at one time you referred to some meeting +in the Carousel Club a week or so before the assassination. Do you have +any material on that or any information? + +Mr. LANE. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is there anything you would care to present to the +Commission? + +Mr. LANE. Yes. I have been informed--and this is the source I will have +to check with again in order to secure his testimony---- + +Mr. RANKIN. You will advise us if you are permitted to. + +Mr. LANE. Yes. But I can tell you the substance--that a meeting took +place on November 14, 1963, in the Carousel Club between Officer Tippit +and Bernard Weissman, Mr. Weissman being the gentleman who placed a +full-page advertisement in the Dallas Morning News which was printed on +November 22, asking a series of questions of President Kennedy. It was +addressed "Welcome to Dallas, President Kennedy. Why have you traded +the Monroe Doctrine for spirit of Moscow. Why has Gus Hall and the +Communist Party endorsed your 1964 election" and such matter. I think +these two give a rather clear indication of the kind of advertisement +that it was. And I have been informed that Mr. Weissman and Officer +Tippit and a third person were present there. I have been given the +name of the third person. But for matters which I will make plain to +the Commission, I will be pleased to give you the name of the third +person as given to me, but not in the presence of the press. I would +rather do that in executive session--that one piece of testimony. + +The CHAIRMAN. That is satisfactory to do that, if you wish. + +Mr. LANE. Thank you, sir. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is there anything else about that incident that you know +and want to tell the Commission at this time? + +Mr. LANE. No. + +The CHAIRMAN. That is the entire story, is it? + +Mr. LANE. That they were there for more than 2 hours conferring--these +three persons. + +The CHAIRMAN. Your information does not--is not to the effect as to +what they were conferring on. + +Mr. LANE. No; they did not hear that. + +Mr. RANKIN. I am not suggesting, Mr. Lane, that you have been selective +about what you have told the Commission and what you have not told, but +I do wish to make the inquiry as to whether there is any information +you might have that the Commission should be informed of as to other +people that you might have interviewed in regard to this matter. + +Mr. LANE. I have given the Commission at this time everything that I +know. + +Mr. RANKIN. Is there anything about the palm prints that you can tell +us in addition to what you have given us? + +Mr. LANE. Not in addition to what I have said. + +Mr. RANKIN. Well, I will ask you generally--is there anything in +addition to what you have said that you would like to tell the +Commission at this time that has any bearing upon this investigation? + +Mr. LANE. All I can say in reference to that, Mr. Rankin, is that I +am practically engaged in this project by myself, which means I am +extremely limited. This is not my profession--investigator. I am an +attorney. And there are many leads which I have followed, which have +led me nowhere at all, obviously. Before finding Mrs. Markham or before +finding Mrs. Hill, there were many other persons I talked to who were +not even present, who I have heard were present. But there are still +large numbers, probably at this point hundreds of leads which I have +heard of, and which I have not yet been able to trace or to check +through. I do not think it would be constructive just to tell you all +of the things I have heard, because most of them are patently untrue, +and they just require a great deal of work. But I will continue to do +that, and should I come across any material which might in any way +interest you, I will certainly either write to you for the purpose of +presenting it to you through the mail in affidavit form, if you prefer, +or indicate that I will be available to come and testify again if you +prefer that. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Lane, your client, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, when she +was testifying before us, told us that she had sold some pictures to +the press and she wanted the originals of all the pictures that she +presented to us, because she said they were of great financial value to +her. Do you know what sales she has made concerning pictures such as +you have shown us? + +Mr. LANE. In terms of the picture with the rifle, you mean, for example? + +The CHAIRMAN. Well, we might start with that. + +Mr. LANE. She has never seen such a picture, she has informed me, of +Lee Harvey Oswald with the rifle--except after they had been published. +She never had any knowledge of such pictures, and had never seen them. + +I do not really represent Marguerite Oswald. She has retained me to +represent the interests of her son. And so in her business dealings in +terms of her sale of pictures and articles, I have not represented her. +I believe she has a literary agent or perhaps even another lawyer--I +don't know. But she has retained me to represent her son's interests, +not to represent her at all. + +The CHAIRMAN. I see. + +Mr. LANE. Of course, we have conferred. But I do not have that +information. + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes. + +Mr. RANKIN. Mr Lane, I have a further question. Have you ever been +prevented by any law enforcement officer from interviewing anyone +concerning this matter when you wished to? + +Mr. LANE. Well, I would say that I have been prevented by the +statements made by the law enforcement persons or agents to the +individual, that he should not talk to anyone about this case, that it +is a secret matter. As I have indicated, Mr. Klein---- + +Mr. RANKIN. You have described those cases, have you? + +Mr. LANE. I have also spoken to a reporter who is employed by a Dallas +newspaper, who informed me that he sought to question more than 150 in +the area, and that many of those persons informed him that they were +ordered by the FBI not to talk to anyone about this case, and that +almost none of the witnesses would talk with him about the case, and +that some of them, when he asked the reason that they were not talking +to him, it was "Was this because you have been told by the FBI?"--and +he indicated they were not even allowed to answer that question. But +many of them told him that the FBI or the Secret Service ordered them +not to talk. In no other respect have I been interfered with to my +knowledge. + +Mr. RANKIN. Do you have the name of that reporter--can you reveal that +to us? + +Mr. LANE. I cannot reveal it at this time, but I am hopeful you will +permit me to. He is one of the reporters I referred to earlier. + +Mr. RANKIN. Thank you. + +The CHAIRMAN. Senator, do you have any questions? + +Senator COOPER. No; I have no questions. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rhyne. + +Mr. RHYNE. Mr. Chief Justice--I wanted to ask Mr. Lane, on his inquiry +about what happened to Oswald during the 48 hours he was under +detention--you suggested that the Commission make an inquiry into +whether his civil rights were denied. Do you have any information on +that subject? + +Mr. LANE. Yes. I saw what happened--I read in the newspapers and heard +on the radio. + +Mr. RHYNE. It looked to me that most of the material presented here +today was really in the newspapers. You are merely repeating what +someone else has said. + +Mr. LANE. I don't think that is an accurate characterization of my +testimony at all, sir. For example, I told you before of conversations +that I have had--I know you listened intently--I told you of +conversations that I had with Mr. Klein. I told you of conversations +I had with Miss Hill, who is probably the closest eyewitness to the +assassination, with Miss Woodward, who is perhaps the second or third +closest witness to the assassination, with Dial Ryder, with at least +two or three other persons. + +Mr. RHYNE. But on this one point, with respect to denial of any civil +rights or protection of civil rights during this 48-hour period, you +say that is all in the newspaper stories? + +Mr. LANE. No. What I meant by that response was that the basic denial +that I was discussing was the development of the case publicly against +him, so that it would be impossible in securing a jury panel to secure +12 jurors probably anywhere in this country who had not reached a +conclusion, first of all. And secondly, obviously the death of the +accused, which I know is a matter for the Commission's inquiry already. + +Mr. RHYNE. I notice that you said your investigation was incomplete. So +I just wanted to be sure that I understood what you meant with respect +to this 48-hour detention period. + +Mr. LANE. No; I have no knowledge over and above that that I could give +you in that area. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Murray, do you have any questions you would like to +ask? + +Mr. MURRAY. No; I have none, Mr. Chief Justice, at this time. + +The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mr. Lane, if any evidence should come to your +attention in the future, would you be willing to convey the information +to the Commission? + +Mr. LANE. Yes; I certainly would, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. We will appreciate it if you would. Thank you for your +attendance. + +We will adjourn at this time. + +(Whereupon, at 5:35 p.m., the President's Commission adjourned, and +reconvened in executive session.) + + + + +TESTIMONY OF MR. LANE RESUMED IN EXECUTIVE SESSION + + +The CHAIRMAN. The session will be in order. + +Mr. RANKIN. Will you proceed, Mr. Lane, in executive session now, to +describe the names? + +Mr. LANE. The third name that I was informed--the person that I was +informed was there, the third person, is named Jack Ruby. It was my +feeling, of course, while his case was pending it would not be proper +to comment on that in the presence of the press. + +Mr. RANKIN. You mean the third person in the group apparently +conferring? + +Mr. LANE. Yes. Tippit, Weissman, and Ruby. + +The CHAIRMAN. Have you made any public statement of this kind before on +this subject--about this meeting? + +Mr. LANE. Not about Ruby--about a meeting between Weissman and Tippit, +yes. + +The CHAIRMAN. But you never named Ruby publicly? + +Mr. LANE. No; I have not. I shall not. + +The CHAIRMAN. I see. Do you know any way by which we might corroborate +that meeting--the fact that it was held? + +Mr. LANE. I am going this evening to see, or tomorrow--I will try this +evening first--to see if I can secure permission by my informant to +reveal his name, and I hope he will be willing to come forward and +testify as to what took place. + +The CHAIRMAN. The Commission would like to know it, if you can do that. + +Mr. LANE. Yes; I shall inform you as soon as I discover that. I would +like very much for the Commission to have that information. Can I +indicate to my informant that the matter can be so raised so that his +name will not be known to anyone other than the Commission? + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir; you may. + +Mr. LANE. That will be extremely helpful. + +The CHAIRMAN. If you can think of any way that can be corroborated, it +would be most helpful to us. + +Mr. LANE. I understand. + +The CHAIRMAN. Congressman, you just got in as we are about to adjourn. +Mr. Lane was telling us of one piece of information that he had +concerning a meeting that was held at the Carousel Nightclub, about a +week, did you say---- + +Mr. LANE. Yes. + +The CHAIRMAN. About a week before the assassination, at which the man +who financed this full-page article in the paper, Dallas paper, this +morning, concerning President Kennedy, and Officer Tippit, and he told +us in private here--he didn't want to mention it before the press--Jack +Ruby. And he tells us that he will try to find out from his informant +more about that, and if he possibly can deliver the information to us. + +Senator COOPER. May I ask one question? + +I assume from what you have said you wouldn't be able to answer it, but +was there any reason ascribed for the presence of Tippit? + +Mr. LANE. My informant does not know the reason. + +Senator COOPER. Or Ruby, with Weissman? + +Mr. LANE. My informant does not know that information. + +Representative FORD. May I ask a question, Mr. Chief Justice? When did +this information come to your attention, Mr. Lane? + +Mr. LANE. Some weeks ago. + +Representative FORD. Do you consider the informant a reliable, +responsible person? + +Mr. LANE. Yes. I cannot vouch, of course, for the information +personally, but I believe the informant is a reliable and a responsible +person. + +Representative FORD. Would your informant be willing, as far as you +know--be willing to testify and give the Commission this information +directly? + +Mr. LANE. I am going to try to arrange that this evening. The Chief +Justice has indicated that his name would not be known if he did that, +and that I did not know that I could make that statement to him before +now. I hope that will be decisive. + +The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything further, gentlemen? + +If not---- + +Representative FORD. May I ask, Mr. Chairman, are we going to have a +schedule laid out, are we going to have a meeting of the Commission +where maybe we will know what the schedule is in the next week or 10 +days or 2 weeks? + +Mr. RANKIN. We have a draft now. + +The CHAIRMAN. We have a draft for you to see. + +Mr. LANE. Perhaps I should withdraw at this time. + +The CHAIRMAN. All right. + +Mr. Lane, thank you very much, sir. + +(Whereupon, at 5:45 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +_Monday, March 9, 1964_ + +TESTIMONY OF ROY H. KELLERMAN, WILLIAM ROBERT GREER, CLINTON J. HILL, +AND RUFUS WAYNE YOUNGBLOOD + +The President's Commission met at 9:10 a.m. on March 9, 1964, at 200 +Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. + +Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman +Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, and Representative Gerald R. Ford, +members. + +Also present were Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Arlen Specter, +assistant counsel; Walter Craig and Charles Murray, observers; and Fred +Smith, Treasury Department. + + +TESTIMONY OF ROY H. KELLERMAN, SPECIAL AGENT, SECRET SERVICE + +The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, the Commission will be in order. Will you be +seated, please? + +Would you state the names of the witnesses who are to be heard today, +Mr. Specter? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes, Your Honor; the witnesses are to be Roy Kellerman of +the Secret Service, William R. Greer of the Secret Service, Clinton +Hill, also of the Secret Service, and Rufus Youngblood, representative +of the Secret Service. + +The CHAIRMAN. Very well, gentlemen; you know the purpose of the +meeting, and we will call first, Mr. who? + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman is our first witness. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Kellerman. Gentlemen, I want to announce that today +it will be necessary for me to spend practically all of the morning +with the Supreme Court, and in my absence Congressman Ford will conduct +the hearing today because he can be here practically all the time. I +will be here in and out throughout the day, however. + +Congressman Ford, will you take over please? + +Representative FORD. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. + +The CHAIRMAN. Will you proceed? I believe the first thing is to swear +the witness. + +Mr. SPECTER. Very good, sir. + +Representative FORD. Do you promise to tell the truth, the whole truth, +so help you God? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I do, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. My name is Roy H. Kellerman. + +Mr. SPECTER. By whom are you employed, Mr. Kellerman? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I am employed as a special agent for the Secret Service. + +Mr. SPECTER. How old are you? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I am 48 years old. + +Mr. SPECTER. Married? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Pardon? + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you married? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; I am married and have two daughters; their +ages are 20 and 17. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where do you reside? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Bethesda, Md. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your current duty station with the Secret Service? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. My current duty station is assistant special agent in +charge of the White House detail. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been with the Secret Service? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. This is my 23d year. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you sketch in a general outline what your duties have +been with the Secret Service since the time you started with them, +please? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I was appointed an agent with the Secret Service in +Detroit, Mich., the 19th of December 1941. I was transferred to +Washington, D.C., the field office, on February 9, 1942. Prior to +that I had a 30-day assignment in the office of Cincinnati, Ohio, +temporarily. I worked in the Washington field office from the 9th of +February 1942 until the middle of March 1942, whereby I was temporarily +transferred to the White House detail. This transfer became permanent, +effective, I believe it was, the 17th of April or the latter part of +April in 1942, still as a special agent. + +At the White House detail we work on shifts around the clock, +protecting the President and his family. I was a member of one of +those three shifts. Presently, these shifts change on a two-weekly +basis, from 8 to 4, 4 to midnight, and midnight to 8. I remained on the +White House detail until February 7, 1951, when I was transferred to +Indianapolis, Ind. Prior to that time I had received enough seniority +whereby I grew up on this shift from the bottom to the top, and was in +charge of one of the shifts prior to my departure to Indianapolis. This +was fieldwork in Indiana. + +On February 1, 1955, I was transferred back to the White House detail. +On my return I was comparable to like, let's say, the No. 2 man of a +shift. I was not in charge of it. + +From 1955, I believe a couple of years later a vacancy occurred, a top +man of that shift left and I received his position. That title was +assistant to the special agent in charge. You at that time governed +each man on your shift. You were in charge of him. + +On October 1 of 1962 a vacancy was opened in the three top officials of +the White House detail, which are comprised of, let me say, the special +agent in charge, who has two assistants; one vacancy occurred. It was +the oldest man on the White House detail; it was given to me and that +is why today I have the title of assistant special agent in charge. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, since you brought us up to 1955, have your duties +remained the same since that time? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I should bring you up to 1964. In 1955, I was +transferred back to the White House detail, remained on that status on +shift work until 1962, whereas I am now an assistant special agent in +charge, which duties are the overseeing and the complete responsibility +of the entire White House detail. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your educational background, Mr.---- + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I am a high school graduate only. + +Mr. SPECTER. What year did you graduate from high school? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. 1933. + +Mr. SPECTER. What were your activities between graduation from high +school and the time you joined the Secret Service, please? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. In October of 1937 I completed the training with the +Michigan State Police. I was sworn in as a trooper. I remained with the +Michigan State Police until December 18, 1941, when I resigned and was +appointed to the U.S. Secret Service. + +Mr. SPECTER. How were you employed or occupied from the time of +graduation from high school until the time you joined the Michigan +State Police? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. 1933 there wasn't too much work; 1935 was my first work +with the Dodge Corp. of the Chrysler people in Detroit. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long did you work there, sir? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Three years, off and on. + +Mr. SPECTER. You described in a general way the organization of the +Secret Service on the White House protective detail. Who is the special +agent in charge? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Gerald A. Behn, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was he the special agent in charge back on November 22, +1963? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. He was. + +Mr. SPECTER. How many shifts are there? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Three shifts, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And approximately how many men are assigned to each shift? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Ten men on each shift, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. What were your specific duties back on November 22 of 1963? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. My specific duty, gentlemen, on the 22d of November of +1963, I was in charge of the detail for this trip of President Kennedy, +for the trip to Texas in those 2 days. + +Mr. SPECTER. How did you personally make the trip to Texas? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I rode on the President's plane on the entire tour. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline in a general way the times of departure +and arrival on the trip to Texas up until the morning of November 22, +please? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I just don't have the time we left Washington, D.C. + +Mr. SPECTER. Without the precise times; just in a general way. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. All right. We departed in the morning from Washington. +Our first stop was in San Antonio, Tex. + +Mr. SPECTER. Which morning was that, sir? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. It was November 21; it was at San Antonio, Tex., that +we picked up the then Vice President Johnson. The two people continued +on this tour of the State in separate planes. During our stay in San +Antonio, we then flew from San Antonio to Houston, Tex. There were +ceremonies there, and the program there which had been set up. From +Houston we flew into Fort Worth, Tex., where we remained overnight on +November 21. + +We arrived at the Texas Hotel, it was a little after 11 o'clock in the +evening. There were no activities until the following morning, November +22. + +Mr. SPECTER. What time did the activities start the following morning? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. On November 22, the activities started at around 8:25 in +the morning when the President, accompanied by the then Vice President +Johnson, and a few congressional leaders walked out the front door, +across this street which was a parking lot, and a few minutes' speech +was made to the gathering there. It was a light drizzle at the time. +From there we returned to the hotel and he attended a breakfast given +by the chamber of commerce and, I believe it was, a citizens group of +Fort Worth. On completion of the breakfast he returned to his suite. +The weather was then changing. It had quit raining and it looked +like it was going to break out and be a real beautiful day. In the +neighborhood of 10 o'clock in the morning I received a call from Mr. +Lawson, Special Agent Lawson, who had the advance from Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Lawson was with the Secret Service, was he? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; he is. He asked me to determine whether the +bubbletop car that the President would ride in in Dallas that day +should have the top down or remain up. + +Mr. SPECTER. Let me interrupt you there for just a minute, Mr. +Kellerman. I show you a photograph which has been marked as Commission +Exhibit No. 344. Are you able to identify that picture and the +automobile in that picture? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; this is the 1961 Lincoln Continental four-door +convertible bubbletop. It is a special car. + +Mr. SPECTER. For the purpose of the record, how many doors does that +car have? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. This vehicle has four doors. + +Mr. SPECTER. And in the posture of the picture identified as Commission +Exhibit 344, is the top up or down? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. The top is down, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what top does that automobile have? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. This top is a plastic top. From the rear of the +passenger all the way to the windshield there are four sections of +plastic glass. The one that comes over the top of the passengers in the +back seat, two little sections that come over the two doors, and one +over the driver and passenger in the front seat. + +Mr. SPECTER. In what way is that attached, if any, to the car? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Securely bolted, screwed. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chairman, may I ask that the Exhibit 344 be introduced +formally in evidence, please? + +Representative FORD. It will be so admitted. + +(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 344 for +identification and received in evidence.) + +Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 345. +Are you able to tell us what that depicts? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; this is the same vehicle as mentioned in 344. +The difference being the top is up and there is a covering, a cloth +covering that also fits over this plastic top. + +Mr. SPECTER. And Exhibit No. 345 is taken from what angle, Mr. +Kellerman? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. From the rear, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. As contrasted with Exhibit No. 344, which is taken from +what angle? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. This is from the right side. + +Mr. SPECTER. I ask that Exhibit 345 be introduced, if the Commission +please. + +Representative FORD. So admitted. + +(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 345 for +identification and received in evidence.) + +Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 346, +Mr. Kellerman, and ask you if you can tell us what that depicts. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. This picture depicts the interior of this same +automobile. It has a rear solid seat; there are two other jump seats +that can be folded forward in the rear and the complete solid front +seat for the driver and passenger. This is the same vehicle. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe what, if anything, is present between +the front seat and the rear seat area? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. This metal partition that is erected in back +of the driver, between the driver and the passengers in the rear seat, +is a metal framework that goes over the car. It has four holes in it. +These holes are utilized by the President for parades. As an example, +say it was used in Washington where you had an official visitor, and in +using one of the streets here as your parade route, he and his guest +would stand in this car where the people could view them a little +better than sitting in the rear seat. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where is that metal bar positioned with respect to the +front seat? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. It is positioned over the front seat; the top of this +bar would be 4 or 5 inches over my head. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is it directly over the back portion of the front seat? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. Directly over the front seat. + +Mr. SPECTER. And you describe it as 4 or 5 inches over your head. Can +you give us an estimate of the distance above the top of the front seat? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Oh, I am guessing in the neighborhood of 15, 18 inches. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is the width of that metal bar? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. The bar, 4 to 6 inches, I would say. + +Mr. SPECTER. Can you tell us approximately how wide the automobile +itself is? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I can't. + +Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the automobile, are there any running +boards? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. There are no running boards. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is there any place on the car where someone can stand up +and ride as it proceeds in motion? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; on the rear of the vehicle, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. How many such positions are there? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. There is a step on each side of the spare tire, one man +on each one. + +Mr. SPECTER. And is there any facility for holding on with a man riding +in those positions? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; there is a metal arm erected on the trunk +where a man can hold on while standing on the rear of the car. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. + +May it please the Commission, I move that Exhibit 346 be introduced in +evidence. + +Representative FORD. It will be so admitted. + +(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 346 for +identification and received in evidence.) + +Mr. SPECTER. With reference to the bubble top which you have heretofore +described, of what is that composed? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. It is composed of plastic, clear plastic substance. +Its use would be for a weather matter whereby the President or his +occupants can see out. It is not an enclosed car. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is it bulletproof? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. It is not bulletproof. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is it bullet resistant in any way? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. It's not bullet resistant. + +Mr. SPECTER. Could you describe in a general way at this point what +efforts, if any, have been made to obtain a bulletproof clear top for +the President's automobile? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Presently? + +Mr. SPECTER. Presently or heretofore. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to have to go in the present day. + +Mr. SPECTER. Fine. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. This same vehicle, I understand, is being completed with +a bullet-resistant top and sides. + +Representative FORD. Can you explain the difference between bullet +resistant and the existing kind of the top? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I can't; I really can't. I have been behind on this +thing and I am at a loss for a better answer. + +Representative FORD. Could the present top deflect in any way, destroy +the accuracy of a shot? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. This would be a guess, Mr. Congressman. I would think +that it would be deterred for, let's say, the velocity of a missile +coming in at great speed, I think it would deter it; I don't think it +would eliminate--it still would enter the top. + +Representative FORD. The vehicle. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I am sure; yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. But as far as you know the top that was available +would not impede the projectile? Do you know whether or not it would +deflect its accuracy? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, I have tried to study that, sir. The angle of +the back as an example which is, what degree I don't recall, hoping +that--of course, it was now known to be an upshot into the vehicle +hoping that it would deter its force and so forth, but I really don't +know. I kind of doubt it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, in describing the top as being not +bulletproof and not bullet resistant, state whether you are describing +the top which they are currently working on or the top which was +present at the time of November 22, 1963? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is the top that they are currently working on. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, as to the bubble top which accompanied this car on +November 22, 1963, was that bulletproof or bullet resistant? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. It was not; neither. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not an effort is being made at the +present time to develop a bullet-resistant or bulletproof top. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes sir; it is. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you personally familiar with the progress of that +effort? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I am not, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how the President's automobile was transported +from Washington, D.C., to Texas? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. The President's vehicle was transported to San +Antonio by cargo aircraft. It was flown to San Antonio a day before the +President arrived. It was then flown from San Antonio to Dallas, where +it was used on November 22. This vehicle was not used in the other two +stops at Houston and Fort Worth. + +Representative FORD. When you say cargo aircraft---- + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Like a C-130, sir. + +Representative FORD. A Government? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. You are right, sir; that is right. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, what were the President's activities, if +you know immediately prior to the time he departed from Fort Worth? + +Senator COOPER. Might I ask just one question? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Do you know whether or not prior to November 22 the +President's car had ever been equipped with a top which had the +capacity to stop or deflect a bullet? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Never had been, Senator. + +Senator COOPER. There was none in existence? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, what were the President's activities +immediately before departing from Fort Worth on the morning of November +22? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. First he walked from the hotel across the street, spoke +to a group that were in a parking lot, with other congressional people +there in Texas. From there he walked right into the hotel and entered +the ballroom where a breakfast was held, given to him by the chamber of +commerce and, I believe, the citizens group in Fort Worth. + +From there he returned to his suite because there was time left before +his departure for Dallas. It was up there in the neighborhood of 10 +o'clock in the morning that Special Agent Lawson called me from Dallas +asking me to verify whether the top should be put on--should remain +on the President's car or should be taken off due to the change of +weather. It had been raining slightly in Dallas at that time. I said, +"One moment and I will check with you one way or the other." + +As I said earlier, the weather was clearing in Fort Worth; it was going +to be a nice day. I asked Mr. Kenneth O'Donnell, who is President +Kennedy's appointment secretary: "Mr. O'Donnell," I said, "the +weather; it is slightly raining in Dallas, predictions of clearing up. +Do you desire to have the bubbletop on the President's car or do you, +or would you desire to have it removed for this parade over to the +Trade Mart?" + +His instructions to me were, "If the weather is clear and it is not +raining, have that bubbletop off," and that is exactly what I relayed +to Mr. Lawson. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, at about what time did President Kennedy depart from +Fort Worth? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. We were airborne from Fort Worth at 11:20 in the morning. + +Mr. SPECTER. In what plane were you airborne? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. In the President's special plane, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive in that plane in Dallas? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. We arrived in Dallas, Love Field, at 11:40 a.m. + +Mr. SPECTER. Describe in a general way what President Kennedy's +activities were at Love Field, please. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Very well. May I add this: Again I said there were two +planes in this program. The then Vice President Johnson would be in +a separate plane. He would land ahead of us by a minute or two, all +right. He is in Dallas by the time we arrive at 11:40 a.m. As we are +spotted on the apron at Love Field and when the ramp is pulled forward, +the Vice President, then Vice President Johnson and Mrs. Johnson, +together with a selected group of people would form a reception +committee from the end of the ramp straight out to where the motorcade +was in place. + +At 11:40, as I said, the President and Mrs. Kennedy left that plane, +met these people. As we finished greeting these folks here, there was +an elderly lady wheeled up in a wheelchair; her name I do not know; the +both of them met her. By this time the people are starting to get in +their automobiles for this trip into town. The President then noticed +that there was quite a gathering of people at this airport in back of a +fenced area, and, with her, they both walked over to this crowded area +and started shaking hands and greeting these people who had been there +perhaps some time before we got in. + +Mr. SPECTER. By "her", who do you mean, sir? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Mrs. Kennedy; I am sorry. + +Mr. SPECTER. What would you estimate the crowd to be? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. In the thousands; I would say there were two, three, +four thousand people there. + +Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long did the greeting of the crowd at +Love Field last, Mr. Kellerman? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Fifteen minutes. The motorcade left Love Field at 11:55. + +Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how many cars were there in that motorcade? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. At least 15. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the first car in line? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. The first car in line, sir, was what we call the police +pilot car. The duties of these police officers in that car--they would +drive ahead. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you personally know who was in that car? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. How far ahead of the regular motorcade were they to be? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. They could be several blocks ahead of us. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is the general purpose of that pilot car? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. The purpose of that pilot car is to clear the roadway +and instruct the officers along the route that the President is in +motion and coming in back of them. Next you will find a small group of +motorcycles. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how many motorcycles there were in Dallas on +that day? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I don't. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you tell us what the custom is with respect to +motorcycles? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; those motorcycles that would be in back of +that police car were to assist any officers along the way in any +disturbance that they would run into before we got to that point, or +secondly, in the event that we needed them back on our car they could +be called, utilized. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is the next car in line? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. The next car is the lead car. That car on that day was +driven by Chief Curry of the Dallas Police Department. + +His occupants in that car was Special Agent Winston Lawson, who was +carrying a portable radio with him. Also in this car was Special Agent +in Charge Verne Sorrels, in charge of our Dallas office. The other +occupant, I believe, was a deputy sheriff. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was it Sheriff Decker, perhaps, of Dallas County? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. The name doesn't reach me, sir; I am sorry. + +Mr. SPECTER. You described a radio. Will you tell us a little more +fully what radio transmission there was in the motorcade, please? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. This lead car which Mr. Lawson was in has a +portable radio. The President's car is next. This is equipped with a +permanent set radio on the same frequency as that gentleman up front. +The next car is our Secret Service followup car which has a permanent +installation. The Secret Service car, as I say, is equipped with a +permanent installation which connects the President's car and the lead +car. The next car in back of our Secret Service car was the then Vice +President Johnson. The Secret Service agent in that car had a portable +radio that he could read all three of us ahead. His car following was a +small Secret Service followup car, and they, too, had a portable set, +which could read all four. + +So we had a net of five on our own frequency. In the police cars they +had their own city police frequency radios. + +Mr. SPECTER. How many frequencies were used by your own network? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. One. + +Representative FORD. Do you have an alternative frequency, emergency +frequency? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; we do. We have two of them. + +Mr. SPECTER. What automobile came behind the lead automobile? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. The President's car. + +Mr. SPECTER. Describe the occupants of that car, indicating their +positions, if you can, please. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. The President--President Kennedy sat on the right +rear seat. Next to him on the left seat was Mrs. Kennedy. On the right +jump seat in front of President Kennedy was Governor Connally. On the +left jump seat in front of Mrs. Kennedy was Mrs. Connally. I sat on the +right passenger seat of the driver's seat, and Special Agent William +Greer drove the vehicle. + +Mr. SPECTER. How far were you behind the lead car? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No more than two or three car lengths. + +Senator COOPER. What is that? I didn't hear it. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No more than two or three car lengths, Senator Cooper. + +Mr. SPECTER. What car immediately followed the President's car? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Our own Secret Service followup car. + +Mr. SPECTER. What kind of a car was that? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. This is a 1956 Cadillac, four-door touring car with the +top down. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was that also a special automobile flown in? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. This is a special automobile, flown in with the +President's car; yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. SPECTER. And who were the occupants of that car, indicating their +positions in the car? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. All during this ride in from Love Field Special Agent +Sam Kinney was the driver of this automobile. The assistant to the +Special Agent in Charge Emory Roberts was sitting in the front seat, +the passenger side. This car has running boards. Standing on the front +of the left running board was Special Agent Clinton Hill. In back of +him on the rear of that same running board on that side was Special +Agent William McIntyre. On the right running board standing forward was +Special Agent John Ready, and standing in back of him on the rear of +the right running board was Special Agent Paul Landis. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did that automobile have jump seats? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. This automobile has jump seats. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what people occupied the jump seats? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. It was occupied by Mr. Kenneth O'Donnell, who was the +appointment secretary of President Kennedy, and Mr. Dave Powers. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know which sat on which side? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. O'Donnell sat on the left; Mr. Powers sat on the +right. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who was in the back seat of that automobile? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. The back seat of that automobile on the right side was +Special Agent George Hickey, and on the left side Special Agent Glen +Bennett. + +Mr. SPECTER. How were the special agents in the followup car armed, if +at all? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Each agent carries his own gun. This is a 4-inch +revolver on their person. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would that apply to you and Mr. Greer as well? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Absolutely. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other arms in the President's followup car? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; in this followup car we have what is now known +as an AR-15. This is a rifle, and it is on all movements; this vehicle +is out of the case; it won't be shown; it could be laying flat on the +floor, but she is ready to go. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, how far behind the President's car did the +Presidential followup car follow? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Not knowing how far it was behind, I would say, from the +practice of that driver that he has, five feet would be a maximum. + +Mr. SPECTER. What car was in the motorcade immediately behind the +President's followup car? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That was Vice President Johnson's car then. + +Mr. SPECTER. What kind of a car was that on that particular day? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. This was a Lincoln four-door Continental convertible. +This was a four-door car, with no top on it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is that a special car, also, or is that obtained on the +market? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. This is not a special car; it is a car that is on the +market. + +Mr. SPECTER. What car followed the Vice President's car? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. The car following his car was a police car. It was +driven by a member of the Dallas Police Force, or I just don't recall. +I am sorry. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have personal knowledge or detail of the occupants +of the Vice President's car? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; I do. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who was present there? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Special Agent Rufus Youngblood sat in the front seat on +the right side. In back of him on the right side and the rear was the +then Vice President Johnson. Next to him was Mrs. Johnson, and next to +Mrs. Johnson was Senator Yarborough. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was Vice President Johnson seated on the right side or the +left side of the rear seat? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. On the right side, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were there jump seats in the Vice President's car? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the identity of the driver of the Vice +President's car? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who was that? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That was Mr. Hurchel Jacks. He is a Dallas police +officer. + +Mr. SPECTER. Might he be a Texas State police officer? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; you are right. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the identity of all of the individuals in the +Vice President's followup car? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Not the driver. The agents, yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who were they, sir? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Special Agent Thomas L. Johns, Special Agent Warren +Taylor, and I believe that is all. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to indicate their precise positions? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, no. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, what car, if you know, followed the Vice President's +followup car? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That was car--as an example, car No. 1, which would be a +congressional car; the occupants I do not know at the present time. + +Mr. SPECTER. And behind that car, describe in a general way the balance +of the motorcade, if you will, please. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. All right. The balance of the motorcade, the back +of that car No. 1 which would be the congressional people would be +two press cars, one covering the wire people, and one would be the +photographic group. Then you would have a series of guest cars, and +then a press bus. And then a police car followup, bringing up the +entire motorcade. + +Mr. SPECTER. You described the motorcycles which followed the pilot +car. Were there any other motorcycles in the motorcade? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; we had four other motorcycles opposite the +back wheel of the President's vehicle, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were those on both sides or on each side? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. On each side; two on each side. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other motorcycles in the balance of the +motorcade? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Not that I recall. + +Mr. SPECTER. At what speed did the motorcade proceed at the various +times en route, say, from Love Field down to the downtown section of +Dallas, Tex.? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. As we left Love Field, the driveway from this apron on +the field was sort of a winding thing, and there were many people that +gathered on the roadside to view him as they passed. I don't think +we traveled more than 12 to 15 miles until we left the airport apron +proper. + +Mr. SPECTER. Twelve to fifteen miles per hour? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Per hour. + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Then, as we were in the opening between there and the +city limits of Dallas, we could have gone 25 to 30. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the size of the crowd at that specific point? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Nothing in between then until we hit the outskirts of +the city. Of course, then you got into a residential, a school, area +where all the people were out on the curb line. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the speed when you reached that area? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Then we would reduce the speed down to 15 miles an hour. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the minimum speed traveled +until you reached the downtown area? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. We could have been going 25 to 30 at several times, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. What were the crowds like in the downtown area itself? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. A lot of people. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the speed of the motorcade when you came into the +downtown area? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. It would be reduced down to 10 to 15 miles an hour, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were there any unusual occurrences en route from Love +Field until, say, you got to the downtown area of Dallas, Tex.? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. As we were on the outskirts of this town and apparently +reaching a crowded area there were a group of youngsters on the right +side of the car curb-line-wise, that had a large sign, oh, perhaps the +width of the two windows there, that said, "Please, Mr. President, stop +and shake our hands," and he saw this and he called to the driver and +said, "Stop," he said, "call these people over and I will shake their +hands," which we did. The entire motorcade stopped. I got out of the +car and stood alongside of it while these people were right up on me. +The agents who were on the followup car, all around it. And then after +a few seconds he said, "All right; let's travel on." + +Mr. SPECTER. You say the agents in the followup car moved up at the +stopping? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Always, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Specifically, what did they do on that occasion? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. They crowded right in between the President, the car, +and the people. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did the President actually leave the car? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how long did that stop last? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. A matter of seconds. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other unusual occurrence en route to the +downtown area itself? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I can recall, however, one small affair. I think +we were in the heart of Dallas on this street when a young boy jumped +off the curb and apparently he was thinking of running over to the +President's car and shaking his hands when one of our people left the +followup car and put him back on the curb, and that all happened in +motion so there was nothing out of the way. + +Mr. SPECTER. I show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No. +347 and ask you if you are at this time able to tell us what that +photograph represents. + +The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, may I interrupt at this time to ask to +be excused? I have a session in the Supreme Court, but I will be back +later. + +Representative FORD. Thank you very much, Mr. Chief Justice. + +(Chief Justice Warren left the hearing room.) + +Mr. KELLERMAN. This is an aerial photo of the downtown parade. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to identify the street on which you proceeded +coming into the area depicted by that photograph? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. This is--this would be Main Street as we came +into the heart of Dallas. + +Mr. SPECTER. I think it might be helpful if we marked that as Main +Street if we can get a pencil or pen that will mark on that. + +Mr. CRAIG. May I suggest the witness mark it? + +Mr. SPECTER. I think it is a good idea. Will you mark the street which +you have identified as Main Street? + +(Witness marking.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you also mark---- + +Mr. KELLERMAN. We were traveling---- + +Mr. SPECTER. The street onto which you turned from Main Street? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. As we were coming up from Main Street or down, either +way. + +Mr. SPECTER. In what general direction were you proceeding on Main +Street? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. This was a westerly direction. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you put an arrow indicating which way is north on +the map? That is a general northerly direction on the map. + +(Witness indicating.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark an arrow on Main Street showing the +direction on which you were proceeding on Main? And how far did you +proceed on Main Street to what street? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Elm Street, sir. This is a very short block, maybe a +couple of hundred feet at the most. + +Mr. SPECTER. My question was to what street did you proceed on Main? +You then drove to what street? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Houston Street. + +Mr. SPECTER. Which way did you turn onto Houston Street? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Turned right, which would be north. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark the street that you have told us would be +Houston Street? + +(Witness indicating.) + +Mr. SPECTER. How far did you proceed down Houston Street? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I am sure it wasn't more than 200 feet at the most. It +was a real short block. + +Mr. SPECTER. What street then did you turn onto as you turned off of +Houston Street? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. From Houston we turned onto Elm, which was a rather +sharp turn with a downgrade, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was that a turn on the left or the right? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. To the left, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. I ask that Exhibit 347 be admitted in evidence, may it +please the Commission. + +Representative FORD. It will be admitted. + +Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit +No. 348, Mr. Kellerman, and I ask you if you are able at this time to +identify what building is in that picture? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. This building right straight ahead in the photo--I +couldn't have told you on the day of the 22nd of November what it was, +but as of now this is the Texas Depository Building. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is that the building known as the Texas School Book +Depository Building? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir. + +(The photograph marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 347 and 348 for +identification and received in evidence.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark on Exhibit 347--we have 348, we will get 348 +back in a moment. I would like to have you mark in the aerial shot the +precise location of that building with the initials "TS." + +(Witness marks.) + +Mr. SPECTER. For the written part of our record will you describe how +many stories high the Texas School Book Depository building is? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. This is a seven-story building. From here it appears to +be a rather square-type constructed. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. As you were proceeding in a generally northerly +direction on Houston Street, can you describe the layout of the street, +indicating first the approximate width of that street? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Houston Street is a rather wide city street similar to +anything we have here in Washington, really, and being in the heart of +the business section, I would say that it was a six-lane street at the +time. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was on your right as you proceeded down Houston +Street? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. The buildings. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how about on your left? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. On my left it was open. + +Mr. SPECTER. As you turned left onto Elm Street, will you describe what +was on your right? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. As we turned left onto Elm Street and left this building +that we are speaking of here---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Is that the Texas School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; then your area became clear. + +Mr. SPECTER. On the right? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. On the right, sir. This was an open field area with a +hill. Now, there were, if I recall correctly, just at the brink of +the hill, right beyond this building in question, there was a small +white--how can I describe it? + +Mr. SPECTER. A little park area? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. A little park area; that is right. And beyond it it was +all open. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was on your left at about that time as you proceeded +down Elm Street? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. As we turned left on Elm Street off Houston, +this, too, was a little plaza area, and kind of a triangular thing +where the street was on the opposite side; this is an apparently +one-way street, and directly to our left as we turned you had to view, +this looked like a little one-story plaza building or structure. + +Mr. SPECTER. To complete the scene, as you looked ahead of you down Elm +Street what, if anything, did you see immediately in front of you? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. First thing that I saw was that the road was going +to turn, and then a little further ahead we had a viaduct which we were +going under. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what name the Dallas Texans give to that +viaduct? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I really don't. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you heard it described since as the triple overpass? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I haven't. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the approximate width of Elm Street in lanes of +travel, if you recall? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. It is at least three lanes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And describe the terrain, whether it was smooth, level or +in what way you went as you went down Elm Street. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. As we went down Elm Street, there was a smooth road and +the terrain on each side was a grassy plotted area, a very cleared-off +area, visibility tremendous. + +Mr. SPECTER. And describe the composure of the crowds at that time. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. As we turned north on to Houston Street, this was +primarily the end of the crowd in Dallas, Tex.; in the downtown +section, there were still a few on the sidewalk until we got to Elm +Street. As we turned in a northerly direction to Elm Street, which +would be on our left, then the crowds just diminished. They were +spotty, standing on the grassy plot. They were not on the side of the +street. In fact, there were just a matter of a handful, that was all, +and we were through it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what time it was when you got to the +intersection of Houston and Elm on November 22? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Not at Houston and Elm; no. No; I don't. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the speed of the motorcade, Mr. Kellerman, as you +were proceeding down Main Street at about the time you turned right +onto Houston? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Ten, fifteen, no more; real parade speed. + +Mr. SPECTER. How far ahead of you was the lead car at that time? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Again, it was four or five car lengths in front. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how far behind you the President's followup +car was as you turned right onto Houston from Main Street? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I don't, but I am positive it was right on our rear +wheels. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. + +Now, as you turned left off Houston onto Elm, what is your best +estimate of the speed of the President's automobile at that time? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. As we turned onto Elm Street and the crowd, we were +through the section of Dallas; we might have had--the driver picked +it up because we were all through. Purely a guess, we could have been +going at the most 25. + +Mr. SPECTER. What would your estimate, your minimum estimate, of the +speed be? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Fifteen. + +Mr. SPECTER. As you turned left onto Elm Street, how far were you +behind the lead car at that point? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say the same; three to five car lengths, +but I can, to go a little further, I can see this car ahead of me. He +is not running away from us. + +Mr. SPECTER. How about the pilot car; was that car in sight? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No; that I didn't see; I didn't see it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know from your personal observation at the time you +turned left onto Elm Street how far the President's followup car was +behind you at that point? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Not from personal observation. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, describe what occurred as you proceeded +down Elm Street after turning off of Houston. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. As we turned off Houston onto Elm and made the short +little dip to the left going down grade, as I said, we were away +from buildings, and were--there was a sign on the side of the road +which I don't recall what it was or what it said, but we no more than +passed that and you are out in the open, and there is a report like a +firecracker, pop. And I turned my head to the right because whatever +this noise was I was sure that it came from the right and perhaps into +the rear, and as I turned my head to the right to view whatever it was +or see whatever it was, I heard a voice from the back seat and I firmly +believe it was the President's, "My God, I am hit," and I turned around +and he has got his hands up here like this. + +Mr. SPECTER. Indicating right hand up toward his neck? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir. In fact, both hands were up in that +direction. + +Senator COOPER. Which side of his neck? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Beg pardon? + +Senator COOPER. Which side of his neck? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Both hands were up, sir; this one is like this here and +here we are with the hands---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the left hand is up above the head. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. In the collar section. + +Mr. SPECTER. As you are positioning yourself in the witness chair, your +right hand is up with the finger at the ear level as if clutching from +the right of the head; would that be an accurate description of the +position you pictured there? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. Good. There was enough for me to verify that the +man was hit. So, in the same motion I come right back and grabbed the +speaker and said to the driver, "Let's get out of here; we are hit," +and grabbed the mike and I said, "Lawson, this is Kellerman,"--this is +Lawson, who is in the front car. "We are hit; get us to the hospital +immediately." Now, in the seconds that I talked just now, a flurry of +shells come into the car. I then looked back and this time Mr. Hill, +who was riding on the left front bumper of our followup car, was on the +back trunk of that car; the President was sideways down into the back +seat. + +Mr. SPECTER. Indicating on his left side. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Right; just like I am here. + +Mr. SPECTER. You mean, correct, left side? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Correct; yes, sir. Governor Connally by that time is +lying flat backwards into her lap--Mrs. Connally--and she was lying +flat over him. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who was lying flat over him? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Mrs. Connally was lying flat over the Governor. + +Mr. SPECTER. You say that you turned to your right immediately after +you heard a shot? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the reason for your reacting to your right? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That was the direction that I heard this noise, pop. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have a reaction as to the height from which the +noise came? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No; honestly, I do not. + +Representative FORD. Was there any reaction that you noticed on the +part of Greer when the noise was noticed by you? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. You are referring, Mr. Congressman, to the reaction to +get this car out of there? + +Representative FORD. Yes. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Congressman, I have driven that car many times, and +I never cease to be amazed even to this day with the weight of the +automobile plus the power that is under the hood; we just literally +jumped out of the God-damn road. + +Representative FORD. As soon as this noise was heard, or as soon as you +transmitted this message to Lawson? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. As soon as I transmitted to the driver first as I went +to Lawson. I just leaned sideways to him and said, "Let's get out of +here. We are hit." + +Representative FORD. That comment was made to Greer; not to Lawson? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; that is right. + +Representative FORD. And the subsequent message was to Lawson? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Correct. That is right. + +Mr. SPECTER. With relationship to that first noise that you have +described, when did you hear the voice? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. His voice? + +Mr. SPECTER. We will start with his voice. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. OK. From the noise of which I was in the process of +turning to determine where it was or what it was, it carried on right +then. Why I am so positive, gentlemen, that it was his voice--there is +only one man in that back seat that was from Boston, and the accents +carried very clearly. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, had you become familiar with the President's voice +prior to that day? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; very much so. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what was the basis for your becoming familiar with his +voice prior to that day? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I had been with him for 3 years. + +Mr. SPECTER. And had you talked with him on a very frequent basis +during the course of that association? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. He was a very free man to talk to; yes. He knew most +all the men, most everybody who worked in the White House as well as +everywhere, and he would call you. + +Mr. SPECTER. And from your experience would you say that you could +recognize the voice? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much, sir; I would. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, I think you may have answered this, but I want to +pinpoint just when you heard that statement which you have attributed +to President Kennedy in relationship to the sound which you described +as a firecracker. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. This noise which I attribute as a firecracker, when this +occurred and I am in the process of determining where it comes because +I am sure it came off my right rear somewhere; the voice broke in right +then. + +Mr. SPECTER. At about the same time? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct, sir. That is right. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, did President Kennedy say anything beside, "My God, I +am hit." + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is the last words he said, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Kennedy say anything at that specific time? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, there was an awful lot of confusion in +that back seat. She did a lot of talking which I can't recall all the +phrases. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, pinpoint---- + +Mr. KELLERMAN. But after the flurry of shots, I recall her saying, +"What are they doing to you?" Now again, of course, my comparison of +the voice of her speech--certainly, I have heard it many times, and in +the car there was conversation she was carrying on through shock, I am +sure. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, going back to the precise time that you heard the +President say, "My God, I am hit," do you recollect whether she said +anything at that time? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Whether or not you can re-create what she said? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Not that I can recall right then, sir. This statement, +or whatever she said, happened after all the shooting was over. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, you have described hearing a noise which +sounded like a firecracker and you have described turning to your right +and described hearing the President's voice and, again, what was your +next motion, if any, or movement, if any? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. After I was sure that his statement was right that he +was hit, turned from the back I come right down---- + +Mr. SPECTER. You just indicated that you had turned to the left. Had +you turned to the left after hearing his voice? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; certainly. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what did you see? You have described what you saw in +terms of position of his hands. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That was it. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is when I completely turned to my right and grabbed +for the mike in the same motion, sideways telling the driver, "Let's +get out of here; we are hit." + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you give us the best estimate of the lapse of +time from the instant you heard the sound which appeared to you to +be a firecracker until you instructed Mr. Greer in the way you have +described? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Seconds. + +Mr. SPECTER. How many seconds? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Three or four. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, how long did it take you to relay the instructions +which you have told us about to Special Agent Lawson; what your best +estimate would be? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Instant, in seconds again. Again it is three to five. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, in your prior testimony you described a flurry of +shells into the car. How many shots did you hear after the first noise +which you described as sounding like a firecracker? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, these shells came in all together. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to say how many you heard? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say two, and it was like a double +bang--bang, bang. + +Mr. SPECTER. You mean now two shots in addition to the first noise? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; yes, sir; at least. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the time, in seconds, from +the first noise sounding like a firecracker until the second noise +which you heard? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. This was instantaneous. + +Mr. SPECTER. No; let me repeat the question so I am sure you understand +it. From the time you first heard the noise coming to your right rear, +which you described as sounding like a firecracker, until you heard the +flurry of shots? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. This is about how long it took, sir. As I am viewing, +trying to determine this noise, I turned to my right and I heard the +voice and I came back and I verify it and speak to the driver, grab the +mike, these shots come in. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, you have described it as 3 to 4 seconds from the +time---- + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No more. + +Mr. SPECTER. From the time of the first noise--wait a minute--until you +gave the instruction to Mr. Greer and then as you made the statement +to Special Agent Lawson over the microphone that was an instantaneous +timespan as you have described it. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. How soon thereafter did the flurry of shots come? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. They came in, Mr. Specter, while I am delivering that +radio message. + +Mr. SPECTER. To Mr. Lawson. All right. Was there any timespan which +you could discern between the first and second shots and what you have +described as the flurry? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I will estimate 5 seconds, if that. + +Representative FORD. But this flurry took place while you were occupied +with these other activities; is that correct? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir. + +Representative FORD. You don't recall precisely a second shot and a +third shot such as you did in the case of the first? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Let me give you an illustration, sir, before I can give +you an answer. You have heard the sound barrier, of a plane breaking +the sound barrier, bang, bang? That is it. + +Representative FORD. This is for the second and the third, or the +flurry as you described it? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; that is right, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. On your 5-second estimate, was that in reference, Mr. +Kellerman, to the total timespan from the first noise until the flurry +ended? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; that is right. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, when the flurry occurred then, were you +still facing forward talking into the microphone to Lawson? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. Then precisely what was your next movement +after completing the delivery of that message to Lawson? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. When I completed the delivery of those instructions to +Lawson, I just hung up the receiver and looked back. + +Mr. SPECTER. To your right this time--to your left; pardon me. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. To my left; that is right. This is when I first viewed +Mr. Hill, who was on the back of the---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Precisely where was he in that instant? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Lying right across the trunk of the car with Mrs. +Kennedy on the left rear. Mr. Hill's head was right up in back of her. + +Mr. SPECTER. When you describe the left rear you mean as the car was +facing? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. As the car is traveling, sir; yes, sir. He was lying +across the trunk of this car, feet on this side. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was he flat across the trunk of the car? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Flat; that is right. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the position of Mrs. Kennedy's body at that time? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. She was sitting up in the corner of this back seat, like +this. + +Mr. SPECTER. So that she was on the buttocks area of her body at that +time? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what movement, if any, did you observe Mrs. Kennedy +make at that time? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I never did see Mrs. Kennedy leave that back seat, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. When you say the back seat, are you referring---- + +Mr. KELLERMAN. The seat she was sitting on. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you referring to the seat itself of the automobile? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where did you look next; what did you observe following +that? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Then I observed how the President was lying, which +was--he was--flat in the seat in this direction. + +Mr. SPECTER. On his left-hand side? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. Governor Connally was lying straight on his +back with Mrs. Connally over him about halfway. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did Governor Connally say anything up to this point? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Connally say anything up to that point? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. When was it that Mrs. Kennedy made the statement which you +have described, "My God, what are they doing?" + +Mr. KELLERMAN. This occurred after the flurry of shots. + +Mr. SPECTER. At that time you looked back and saw Special Agent Hill +across the trunk of the car, had your automobile accelerated by that +time? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Tremendously so; yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, to the best of your ability to recollect, exactly +when did your automobile first accelerate? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Our car accelerated immediately on the time--at the +time--this flurry of shots came into it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you say the acceleration---- + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Between the second and third shot. + +Senator COOPER. Might I ask a question there? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes. + +Senator COOPER. A few minutes ago you said in response to a question +that when you spoke to the driver the car leaped forward from an +acceleration immediately. Did that acceleration occur before the second +shot was fired? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. Just about the time that it came in. + +Senator COOPER. About the time it came in? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Not before? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No. + +Senator COOPER. One other question: You said the flurry of shots came +in the car. You were leaning forward talking to the driver after the +first shot. What made you aware of a flurry of shots? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Senator, between all the matter that was--between all +the matter that was blown off from an injured person, this stuff all +came over. + +Senator COOPER. What was that? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Body matter; flesh. + +Senator COOPER. When you were speaking of a flurry of shots, was +there a longer interval between the first shot and the second shot as +compared to the interval between the second shot and the third shot? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. When did you first notice the substance which you have +described as body matter? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. When I got to the hospital, sir, it was all over my coat. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice it flying past you at any time prior to +your arrival at the hospital? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; I know there was something in the air. + +Mr. SPECTER. When, in relation to the shots, Mr. Kellerman, did you +notice the substance in the air? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Fine. When I have given the orders to Mr. Lawson, this +is when it all came between the driver and myself. + +Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe what it was in a little more detail as it +appeared to you at that time? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. This is a rather poor comparison, but let's say you take +a little handful of matter--I am going to use sawdust for want of a +better item--and just throw it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the sound of the flurry of shots by way +of distinction with the way you have described the sound of the first +shot? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, having heard all types of guns fired, most of +them, rather, if I recall correctly these were two sharp reports, sir. +Again, I am going to refer to it as like a plane going through a sound +barrier; bang, bang. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, you are referring to the flurry? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did it sound differently from the first noise you have +described as being a firecracker? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; definitely; very much so. + +Representative FORD. Was there any other noise going on at the time of +the second and third shots different from the noise of the crowd or +otherwise at the time of the first shot? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. We had no crowd, sir. There was nothing there. + +Representative FORD. So the external noise was identical as far as +the---- + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much. + +Representative FORD. First or second or the third shot? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. We are in an open-field area, so to speak, and +everything was just clear. + +Representative FORD. So there was no other sound that would have +disturbed your hearing capability from the first through the third shot? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; no other shot. + +Representative FORD. Your only problem would be your personal activity +after the first shot. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Correct. + +Representative FORD. Your activity of speaking to Greer and talking to +Lawson? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct, sir; yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. Was there any crowd reaction? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. There was no crowd. + +Representative FORD. There were a few stragglers? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. A handful, and I didn't view any reaction, sir. + +Representative FORD. All right. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, you said earlier that there were at least +two additional shots. Is there any area in your mind or possibility, as +you recollect that situation, that there could have been more than two +shots, or are you able to say with any certainty? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say that I have, from the firecracker +report and the two other shots that I know, those were three shots. +But, Mr. Specter, if President Kennedy had from all reports four +wounds, Governor Connally three, there have got to be more than three +shots, gentlemen. + +Senator COOPER. What is that answer? What did he say? + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you repeat that, Mr. Kellerman? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. President Kennedy had four wounds, two in the head and +shoulder and the neck. Governor Connally, from our reports, had three. +There have got to be more than three shots. + +Representative FORD. Is that why you have described---- + +Mr. KELLERMAN. The flurry. + +Representative FORD. The noise as a flurry? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Excuse me, do you have any independent recollection, Mr. +Kellerman, of the number of shots, aside from the inference that you +make as to how many points of wounds there were? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Could you rephrase that, please? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes. You have drawn a conclusion, in effect, by saying +that there were four wounds for the President and three wounds for the +Governor; and from that, you say there must have been more than three +shots in your opinion or your view. But my question is: Do you have any +current recollection of having heard more than three shots? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No. I don't. I will have to say "No." + +Senator COOPER. Has that been your recollection from the very time of +the shooting? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; it has been my opinion. + +Senator COOPER. Not your opinion, but from the time of the shooting you +think then that you heard only three shots, or did you---- + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. + +Senator COOPER. Or did you ever think that you heard more than three? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; I can't say that, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, you referred to four wounds, Mr. Kellerman, +realizing, of course, your characterization is only lay opinion. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Very true. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us which wounds you made reference to by +that statement, please? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. All right. Can I keep the train going from the time we +got to the hospital? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir; do it in your own way just as you please. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Fine. As we arrived at the hospital I immediately got +out of the car. Our followup car is in back of us, as you will recall. +I yelled to the agents, "Get in"--"Go get us two stretchers on wheels." + +In the meantime in a matter of seconds--I don't know how they got out +so fast--I turned right around to the back door and opened it. By this +time Mrs. Connally had raised up, and the Governor is lying in her lap, +face up. His eyes are open and he is looking at me, and I am fairly +sure he is alive. By this time I noticed the two stretchers coming out +of the emergency room, and I said to the Governor, I said, "Governor, +don't worry; everything is going to be all right." And he nodded his +head, which I was fairly convinced that that man was alive. + +By this time the stretcher is there. I get inside on one side of him, +and Special Agent Hill on the other. Somebody is holding his feet, and +we remove the Governor and put him on the stretcher and they take him +in. + +We then get in and help Mrs. Connally out. Our next move is to get +Mrs. Kennedy off from the seat, which was a little difficult, but +she was removed. Then Mr. Hill removed his coat and laid it over the +President's face and shoulder. He and I among two other people--I +don't know--we lifted up the President and put him on a stretcher and +followed him right into the emergency room. + +Gentlemen, this emergency room is a, it looks like a, checkerboard; +it has a walkway down the center and a crossway and there are rooms +on each side. President Kennedy was put into the one on the right, +Governor Connally across on the left. And as we pushed the wheelchair +in--we pushed the stretcher inside, the medical people just seemed to +form right in, right there, and I walked around him and I wanted to +look at this man's face, they had him face up. + +Senator COOPER. The President? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. The President; I am sorry. I did not see any wounds in +that man's face. + +Mr. SPECTER. Indicating with your hand at that moment the front part of +his face? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Right, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. May I interrupt you just to ask whether you had any +view---- + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Surely. + +Mr. SPECTER. Of the rear part of his head? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I did not, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the rearmost or uppermost portion of President +Kennedy's head which you could observe at that time? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. It was the hairline to the ear, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Proceed. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Having all the medical people in there, my business is +left in their hands. So I left. Mrs. Kennedy, incidentally, was still +in there. + +Mr. SPECTER. In where, sir? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. In the emergency room with him. Which after a few +minutes they convinced her to leave, and she sat outside the room while +they were working over the President. I walked into this center area +of this emergency room--and I am looking for a telephone--which there +is a little doctor's office and I walked inside, and I am alone at +that time, except one medic who was in there. There are two phones and +I said, "Can I use either one of these phones to get outside?" and he +said, "Yes; just pick one up." + +By this time Mr. Lawson enters and also Mr. Hill. I asked Mr. Lawson +for the telephone number of the Dallas White House switchboard. +He immediately has it and I said to Mr. Hill, "Will you dial it, +please?" By that time a medic comes into the room from President +Kennedy's section and he asks if anybody knows the blood type of the +President--President Kennedy. We all carry it. I produce mine, and that +is what I believe they used; I am not sure. By this time the connection +is made with the White House operator in Dallas, and I took the phone, +identified myself, and I said, "Give me Washington. Please don't pull +this line; let's leave it open." + +I got the Washington operator and I said, identified myself, and I +said, "Give me Mr. Behn." + +Mr. Behn was in the office at the time, and I said--his name is Gerald +Behn--and I said, "Gerry, we have had an incident here in Dallas. The +President, the Governor have been shot. We are in the emergency room +of the Parkland Memorial Hospital." I said, "Mark down the time." +Of course, since that time until now we have disagreed on about 3 +minutes. I said it is 12:38, which would be 1:38 Dallas time. I am +sorry--Washington time. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was that at the time you were talking to Mr. Behn? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. To Mr. Behn; yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And your version is that it is 12:38 Dallas time? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. 12:38. He said it was 12:41; he told me the next day. + +Mr. SPECTER. May I interrupt you there for you to tell us how long +after you arrived at the hospital did you make that telephone call to +Mr. Behn, to the best of your recollection? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Three to five minutes. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. The topic we are on now, Mr. Kellerman, is your +own way of relating the description of the wounds, starting with four +wounds on President Kennedy. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Right; OK. + +Mr. SPECTER. Proceed, then. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I can eclipse an awful lot here and get into the morgue +here in Bethesda, because that is where I looked him over. + +Mr. SPECTER. I will come back and pick up some of the other detail. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Fine. + +Mr. SPECTER. But for the sequence at the moment, as it relates to your +conclusions on the shots which you have already testified about---- + +Mr. KELLERMAN. OK. + +Mr. SPECTER. I would like to develop your understanding and your +observations of the four wounds on President Kennedy. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. OK. This all transpired in the morgue of the Naval +Hospital in Bethesda, sir. He had a large wound this size. + +Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a circle with your finger of the diameter of 5 +inches; would that be approximately correct? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, circular; yes, on this part of the head. + +Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the rear portion of the head. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. More to the right side of the head? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. This was removed. + +Mr. SPECTER. When you say, "This was removed," what do you mean by this? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. The skull part was removed. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. + +Representative FORD. Above the ear and back? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. To the left of the ear, sir, and a little high; yes. +About right in here. + +Mr. SPECTER. When you say "removed," by that do you mean that it was +absent when you saw him, or taken off by the doctor? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. It was absent when I saw him. + +Mr. SPECTER. Fine. Proceed. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Entry into this man's head was right below that wound, +right here. + +Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the bottom of the hairline immediately to the +right of the ear about the lower third of the ear? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. But it was in the hairline, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. In his hairline? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Near the end of his hairline? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the size of that aperture? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. The little finger. + +Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the diameter of the little finger. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, what was the position of that opening with respect to +the portion of the skull which you have described as being removed or +absent? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, I am going to have to describe it similar to this. +Let's say part of your skull is removed here; this is below. + +Mr. SPECTER. You have described a distance of approximately an inch and +a half, 2 inches, below. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct; about that, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. What other wounds, if any, did you notice on +the President? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. The other wound that I noticed was on his shoulder. + +Mr. SPECTER. Which shoulder. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Right shoulder. + +Mr. SPECTER. And was it--what was its general position with respect to +the breadth of the back? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Right straight. + +Mr. SPECTER. No. Upper shoulder, lower shoulder; how far below the +lower neckline would you say? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. The upper neckline, sir, in that large muscle between +the shoulder and the neck, just below it. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the size of that opening? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Again about the size of a little finger. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you described three wounds which you have +observed? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is three. The fourth one I will have to collaborate +with--the medical people in Dallas said that he had entry in the throat +or an exit. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, you are indicating a part on the throat right +underneath your tie as you sit there, the knot of your tie. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who told you that? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. This comes from a report from Dr. Kemp Clark. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to Dr. Clark personally? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I did not. This is a written report. + +Mr. SPECTER. This is a written report which you have read? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; that is right. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any knowledge of that wound on the front side +aside from the written report of Dr. Kemp Clark? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Except that in the morgue it was very visible that they +had incisioned him here to insert the tracheotomy that they performed +on him. + +Mr. SPECTER. So with the operative procedures to perform a tracheotomy, +was there anything, in your view, left of the original entry? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Entry or exit that you have described. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. All you could see at that point was the operative +procedure, the cutting of the surgeon's blade in Dallas? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right. + +Senator COOPER. You are saying this, then, that you did not see, +yourself, at any time the mark of any wound in his neck front? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. When we took him into the hospital in Dallas; that is +right. + +Senator COOPER. What? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; when we took him in the hospital in +Dallas, I did not. + +Senator COOPER. Did you ever see it? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Only after he was opened up in the morgue; yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. You saw some indication or some mark of a wound in the +front of his neck? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Senator, from the report of the doctor who worked on him +in Dallas, that he enlarged the incision here in his throat to perform +that tracheotomy, and I believe in his own statement that that wound +was there prior to this incision. + +Senator COOPER. I know, but I am asking---- + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I didn't see it, sir. + +Senator COOPER. What you saw yourself? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I didn't. + +Representative FORD. Was that because Hill had thrown his coat over the +President, or just didn't see the skin or the body at the time? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. When I--that coat was thrown over, sir, to +eliminate any gruesome pictures. + +Representative FORD. How far over that body? Did it go over the head +only or down the chest? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No; the whole coat went all the way down to the +waistline, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. You saw the President's face, though, at a later time as +you have described? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, thank you. This I had lost track of, to help you +out, Mr. Congressman. While he lay on the stretcher in that emergency +room his collar and everything is up and I saw nothing in his face to +indicate an injury, whether the shot had come through or not. He was +clear. + +Representative FORD. But while he was on the stretcher in the emergency +room you saw his face? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right. + +Representative FORD. But he had his tie and his collar still---- + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Still on. + +Representative FORD. Still on? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. You never saw his neck? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. + +Representative FORD. At that time? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. At that time, I did not observe him. + +Representative FORD. The only time you saw him was later at the morgue? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any blood on the portion of his body in +the neck area or anyplace in the front of his body? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't recall any. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any hole in the clothing of the President +on the front part, in the shirt or tie area? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. From your observation of the wound which you observed in +the morgue which you have described as a tracheotomy, would that have +been above or below the shirtline when the President was clothed? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. It would have been below the shirtline, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you described all of the wounds of the President +to which you have referred? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the three wounds which I believe you +said Governor Connally sustained? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to refer to the medical report on Governor +Connally, wherein they said one wound was in his right back---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the upper shoulder area? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. One went through his wrist. + +Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the right wrist. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I am using the numbers, and he was--a missile went into +his thigh somewhere. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know anything about Governor Connally's wounds +aside from what you read in the medical report? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No; not personally. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any independent knowledge of which wrist and +which thigh, aside from what you read in the medical reports themselves? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; I do, I talked to the Governor several times +later, and it is the right wrist, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. It is the right wrist? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And which thigh? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. It would be the left one. + +Representative FORD. Is this a good point for a recess? + +Mr. SPECTER. This is fine. + +Representative FORD. We will take a 5-minute break. + +(Short recess.) + +Representative FORD. The Commission will resume, and will you proceed, +Mr. Specter, please? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes sir. One of your last answers was that the position +of the wounds on Governor Connally was ascertained from a conversation +between you and Governor Connally, as well as from the medical reports +themselves. Is that correct? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No; it is really not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Then tell us what your basis is for your testimony on +Governor Connally's wounds. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I have never conversed with the Governor as to his other +wounds outside of his wrist. Your medical report on Governor Connally +which indicate the shoulder wound, wrist, and in the thigh. + +Mr. SPECTER. When did you have occasion to talk to him about his wrist +wound? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Over the holidays in Texas, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. The Christmas holidays? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you now told us everything you know, either from +conversations or reports, about the wounds of Governor Connally? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. Were you able to observe at the time of the +shooting and immediately thereafter, as Governor Connally went into the +hospital, any of his specific wounds? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Only of the--I am presuming now of the hand because, +when he was lying, he had it across his stomach here, and it was rather +bloody. + +Mr. SPECTER. And was it the hand that was bloody, the stomach, or both? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I would say so right now; yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Which? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. The hand. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was the stomach bloody at all? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Not that I remember. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add, Mr. Kellerman, on the total +number of wounds in relationship to your view that there were more than +three shots? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, let's consider the vehicle. + +Mr. SPECTER. Fine. What about the vehicle would you consider relevant +in this regard? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. The windshield itself, which I observed a day or two +after the funeral here, had been hit by a piece of this missile or +missiles, whatever it is, shell. + +Mr. SPECTER. While you are referring to the windshield, permit me to +hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 349 and ask if you can +tell us what that photograph depicts? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. This photograph is the windshield of the Presidential +special automobile that we used in Dallas on November 22. And it +depicts a hit by some instrument on the metal railing that covers the +windshield. + +Mr. SPECTER. In what position is the hit on that metal railing? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Directly to the right of the mirror. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is that on the top of the windshield? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is on the top of the windshield. I am sorry; this +is not the windshield itself; this is the top of the vehicle. This is +the framework. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw a red arrow with the pen that you have to +the mark which you have just described? + +(Mr. Kellerman marked the photograph.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, when did you first observe that indentation? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. This was observed a day or two after the funeral, which +funeral was the 25th of November; this would be upward of the 27th. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where was the automobile at the time you observed that +indentation? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. At the White House garage, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was the windshield in the automobile at that time? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it was in the automobile. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe or notice that indentation in the +windshield when you were in Dallas after the shooting occurred? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe or notice that indentation before the +shooting occurred? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to state positively whether or not that +indentation was present before the shooting? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. So that you observed it on the first occasion when you +saw the car in the White House garage on or about November 27; is that +correct? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. The indentation could conceivably have been present before +the shooting? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. It could have; yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. But you didn't observe it before the shooting? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I did not. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you not observe it in Dallas after the shooting? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; I did not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to examine closely the +windshield area after the assassination in Dallas? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to examine closely the +windshield at any time after the assassination until you saw the car in +the garage on or about November 27? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; I have not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe for the record where that indentation +occurs or is placed? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. This indentation is placed on the metal-bar framework +which is across the top of the windshield. The indentation is directly +to the right of the mirror holder. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is that on the inside or the outside of the car? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. This is on the inside of the car. + +Representative FORD. What prompted you to make that investigation on or +about November 27? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. First, Mr. Congressman, I wanted to look this car over +for--let me go back a little bit. When this car was checked over that +night for its return to Washington, I was informed the following day +of the pieces of these missiles that were found in the front seat, and +I believe aside from the skull, that was in the rear seat, I couldn't +conceive even from elevation how this shot hit President Kennedy like +it did. I wanted to view this vehicle, whether this was a slant blow +off the car, whether it hit the car first and then hit him, or what +other marks are on this vehicle, and that is what prompted me to go +around and check it over myself. + +Representative FORD. Had anybody told you of this indentation prior to +your own personal investigation? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Not of the windshield; no, sir. + +Representative FORD. You were the first one to find this indentation? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I believe I am the first one who noticed this thing up +on the bar. + +Representative FORD. That is what I meant. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. You are the first one to notice this particular +indentation? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; I believe I am, sir. + +Representative FORD. All right. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to examine the windshield or the +framework closely before the assassination, either in Dallas or in +Washington? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I honestly didn't. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chairman, I move for the admission to evidence of +Exhibit No. 349. + +Representative FORD. It will be so admitted. + +(The document referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 349 +for identification, was received in evidence.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Now I hand to Mr. Kellerman, through the Chairman, +Commission Exhibit No. 350, and ask you to describe what this picture +represents? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. This picture represents the windshield of the +President's special automobile as we are looking into it. This is an +outside photo. My reason for this is that on inspection there is a--the +windshield has been struck by an instrument and it has been cracked. +This crack is opposite the mirror facing the driver would be toward the +driver, to the right of the mirror, and---- + +Mr. SPECTER. The photograph, Exhibit 350, is from the outside of the +car front looking toward the car; correct? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. What mark, if any, appears in the photograph on the +windshield itself? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. There is the cracked windshield located to the right of +the mirror as you look into the automobile. + +Mr. SPECTER. That would be on the driver's side, as you previously +stated? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; on the driver's side of the vehicle. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, is this picture an accurate representation of the +appearance of the windshield at some time when you observed the +windshield? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. This windshield I observed on this same day. + +Mr. SPECTER. On or about November 27, 1963? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct. + +Mr. SPECTER. Does that picture accurately represent what the windshield +looked like on that day when you observed it? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it is. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any crack in the windshield as +the President's automobile was being driven from the point of +assassination to the hospital? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I did not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe it at any time prior to the time you saw +the automobile in the White House garage on or before November 27? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I did not, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to examine closely the +windshield after the time of the shooting up until the time you saw it +in the White House garage? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, at the time of your examination of the windshield in +the White House garage, did you feel the windshield? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. On the day that I visited the White House garage and +checked this car over for my own personal reasons, and this windshield +crack was pointed out to me, I did---- + +Mr. SPECTER. When you say it was pointed out to you, by whom? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. There were other people in the garage, Mr. Specter, like +Mr. Kinney, I believe was there at the time, Special Agent Henry Rybka +was the other person. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was it sufficiently prominent without having to have it +pointed out specially? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Oh, yes; very much. And I felt this windshield both +inwardly and outwardly to determine first if there was something that +was struck from the back of us or--and I was satisfied that it was. + +Mr. SPECTER. When you say struck from in back of you, do you mean on +the inside or outside of the windshield? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Inside, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Inside of the car? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to feel the outside of the +windshield? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I did on that day; yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you feel, if anything? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Not a thing; it was real smooth. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to feel the inside of the windshield? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I did. + +Mr. SPECTER. How did that feel to you? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. My comparison was that the broken glass, broken +windshield, there was enough little roughness in there from the cracks +and split that I was positive, or it was my belief, that whatever hit +it came into the inside of the car. + +Mr. SPECTER. I move for the admission into evidence of Exhibit No. 350. + +Representative FORD. It will be so admitted. + +(The document referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 350 +for identification, was received in evidence.) + +Mr. SPECTER. I now call the attention of the Commission to Exhibit +No. 351, which is the windshield itself which, as the Commission may +observe, is present in the hearing room. Now, with reference to Exhibit +No. 351, which is a marking placed over a glass object, Mr. Kellerman, +can you describe for the Commission what that is? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; this windshield, which has since been removed from +the vehicle, at the time I first viewed it, this area marked in here +was all that was cracked. These are later splints. + +Mr. SPECTER. Before you proceed, Mr. Kellerman, do you have knowledge +as to the general removal procedure during which this windshield was +taken from the President's car? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I believe I do not. However, I believe Mr. Greer would +be able to identify it better than I, on the removal side. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe the condition of the windshield in its +present state as we are viewing it here this morning? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. The windshield this morning has--has been hit by some +object with sufficient force---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Perhaps we ought to start with the point of impact, Mr. +Kellerman. First, are you able to positively identify this as the +windshield from the President's automobile? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; I would say it was, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is this the same windshield as depicted in Exhibits 349 +and 350? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, starting with the principal point of +impact, where does that exist on this windshield? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. The principal point of impact is located to the left of +the mirror, to the right above the driver's head, and to the right of +his, I am going to say, view line. + +Mr. SPECTER. As we view the windshield at this time, state whether or +not there are spidering lines which have emanated from that point which +you have described as the principal point of impact? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. The spidering lines which extend in three different +directions--you are speaking of the large ones or the others? + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, I want to put on this record all of the spidering +lines which exist here. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. OK; the spidering lines which are in this encircled area +reflect, in my opinion, that when the instrument hit this glass it +shattered in half a dozen different ways. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well now, with respect to the cracks themselves, is there +a crack which goes in a generally upwardly direction slanting off in +the general direction of the driver? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. In the center of this, the impact of the center of this +scratch, one goes directly to the top of the windshield. + +Mr. SPECTER. On that line itself, is there a further splintering off of +that line at another point? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. It then continues on a small leg, a straight leg, about +3 inches from the original direction. + +Mr. SPECTER. And is there a change of direction at that point, or a +bifurcation, dividing it into two parts? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, you have described in a generally upwardly direction +of about 3 inches? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And is there not a crack which then extends all the way to +the top of the windshield moving, in the direction of the left side of +the windshield from the driver facing it? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right. There is a complete crack from this +so-called cutoff to the top right of the windshield right above the +view line of the driver. + +Mr. SPECTER. Taking that from a compass reading, would that be in a +generally northeasterly direction? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; northeasterly. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. From a point 3 inches from the center crack, +which we described as the principal point of impact, then, does there +form a point of crack in a V-direction with the line you have already +described? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; there does. There is a small splint, about 2 +inches, that heads directly north off from this splinter that goes in a +northeasterly direction. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, moving in a clockwise direction. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. In a clockwise direction. + +Mr. SPECTER. What crack do you observe, if any? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I next observe on the eastward side of this center crack +a splint of about 3 inches long, which then makes a sharp veer to the +southeast to the bottom of the windshield. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, moving further in a clockwise direction, what crack +do you next observe emanating from the central point of impact? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. The next crack from the central point of impact extends +down about 3 inches, to the southeast, and then veers to a sharp +southeast to the bottom of the windshield. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, moving further in a clockwise direction. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. From this point---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Let's continue to move from the central point of impact +to finish up what divergent cracks there are from the central point of +impact. Is there one other? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. There is one other point left. This is completely in a +westerly direction about 3 inches from the center of impact, which then +veers to the northwest to the top of the windshield. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are there other cracks in the windshield? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. There is one other splint, which is from the +southeasterly leg---- + +Mr. SPECTER. That would be southwesterly leg. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Southwesterly leg--I am sorry--that drops to within an +inch of the bottom of the windshield, whereby another splint travels in +a northwesterly direction to about halfway of the windshield. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you described all of the visible cracks in the +windshield? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That has completed it, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. As you have viewed this windshield, have you looked at it +from the outside looking in or the inside looking out? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I have been looking from the outside looking in. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where you would have been if you had been, say, on +the front hood of the car when the windshield was in place on the +automobile? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I would have been--pardon? + +Mr. SPECTER. On the hood of the car? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. On the hood of the car this would have been facing me as +it is sitting here today. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have there been any measures taken to protect the outer +edges of this windshield in its position here in the hearing room? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. A form of protective tape has been placed around +the entire windshield to protect it, to keep it intact. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are there any differences in the cracks on the windshield +today as it sits in our hearing room from its condition when you +observed it on or about November 27, 1963? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. From the point of impact the four cracks that +looked in the four directions were the only ones on this windshield. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is there any marking in color or otherwise on that piece +of the windshield? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. There has been a yellow crayon marking the circumference +of these four cracks, apparently before the windshield was removed from +the automobile. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is that yellow or red? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. It is red. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were the cracks present within the circumference of that +marking present at the time you observed the windshield on or about +November 27? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were any of the other marks present when you observed the +windshield on or about November 27? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you at this time feel the outside of the windshield +and describe what, if anything, you feel at the point of impact? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. The outside markings from the point of impact, the +extended lines---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman. I would like for you at this time to +actually touch the outside and tell me, first of all, if it is the same +or if it differs in any way from the sense of feel which you noted when +you touched it on or about November 27? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. As I touch the outside on the impact, it would be the +same as I noticed on the 27th of November. + +Mr. SPECTER. What do you notice, if anything? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. It is a smooth surface without any---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Without any--finish your answer. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. On the inside. + +Mr. SPECTER. No; before. It is a smooth surface without any what? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Without any crack lines. + +Mr. SPECTER. On the outside? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That can be felt. + +Mr. SPECTER. On the outside? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; on the outside of the windshield. + +Mr. SPECTER. Feel the inside and tell us, first of all, whether it is +the same or different from the way you touched it on November 27? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. On November 27, when I felt the inside of this impact +area, I was convinced that I could--that I felt an opening in one of +these lines, which was indicative to me that the blow was struck from +the inside of the car on this windshield. + +Mr. SPECTER. Does it feel the same to you today as it did on or about +November 27? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. As a matter of fact, it feels rather smooth today. + +Mr. SPECTER. It feels somewhat differently today than it felt before? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; it does. + +Representative FORD. Could we ask when the red circle was placed on the +windshield, if you know? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I do not know. + +Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the shattering which existed on or about +November 27, which is within the red circle, could that condition have +existed on November 22 after the assassination? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Absolutely not. I don't think so. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is the reason for your expressing your thought that +it could not have existed? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. This automobile is never out of sight of any agent, or +even a police officer, before it is used--used or afterward. Let me +clarify that. The agent that accompanied these cars to Dallas was with +the vehicles from the time they left Washington aboard this plane. +One of his many duties outside of keeping it, having this car run +perfectly, is that all the equipment is in perfect condition. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, what you are saying, then, is there had +been no crack in the windshield prior to the time of the shooting? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct. + +Mr. SPECTER. My next question is: Did you observe any crack in the +windshield after the shooting on November 22? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to look for or examine for any +crack in the windshield after the shooting? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I had no occasion whatsoever. + +Mr. SPECTER. If the crack in the windshield had been as prominent as it +was on or about November 27, 1963, would you have observed it after the +shooting on November 22? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; I don't think I would have. + +Senator COOPER. Is it correct then to say that you didn't find any +occasion to examine the windshield after you heard the shots? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, I did not have the opportunity. + +Mr. SPECTER. And after the President was removed from the automobile, +did you ever go back and examine the car, including the windshield? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Not in Dallas; no, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. To be absolutely certain our record is straight on this +point, when you observed this windshield on or about November 27, 1963, +was the windshield in or out of the car? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. It was in the car. This was the same day they were going +to remove it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did they remove it later that day, to your knowledge? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; they did, and the mechanics were there. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you there at the time this was removed? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. But the mechanics had arrived preparatory to removing it? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, we intended to describe the windshield +in detail prior to your mentioning it, but to go back to your train +of thought, you had brought up the windshield in response to my +question about whether you had told us everything that you had in mind +when you expressed the view that there were more than three shots. +Now, remaining on the subject of the windshield, what fact about the +windshield was important in your mind when you expressed the view that +there must have been more than three shots? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I may be a little--I am not ahead of myself in your +investigation of this case, but I think with the evidence that you +all have on the numbers, on the pieces of evidence that were found in +the car, plus the fact that you have a missile that was received from +Dallas, from one of the stretchers, plus the fact of the missile that, +to my knowledge, hasn't been removed from Governor Connally--it may +have, I don't know--count up to more than three to me, gentlemen. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right; fine. But focusing just a moment on the +windshield in and of itself, is there any physical factor or +characteristic of the windshield other than those already described for +the record which has any bearing on your conclusion about the number of +shots? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No; it does not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, moving on to the other pieces of evidence which you +have just described, you referred to pieces of evidence in the car. +What did you mean when you made that reference, sir? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I have--I was told, although this is a hearsay thing---- + +Mr. SPECTER. For these purposes, please tell us whatever you are +referring to, whatever its source, hearsay or not. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Okay; fine. That when they examined that vehicle that +night, when it was brought back to Washington, D.C., two pieces of a +bullet or bullets were found on the passenger side on the floor of the +front seat. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe those? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who told you that, or what report? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Boring--Floyd Boring. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who is Mr. Boring? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. He is also an assistant special agent in charge. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is he currently with the Secret Service? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. He is currently with the Secret Service at the White +House; yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were those two pieces of bullet described with more +particularity than you have mentioned? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No; they were not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were they described as fragments of bullets as +distinguished from whole bullets? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Right, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. But do you have any information as to the size of the +fragments? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I do not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other pieces of evidence in the car that you +were referring to there? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. The only other piece of evidence in the car was +President Kennedy's skull. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. Do you know what was done with those fragments +that Mr. Boring told you about? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I don't. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not those were turned over to the +FBI? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I would say they were probably turned over to the FBI; +yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And why would you say they probably were? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Because they were assigned to going over the car. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was it their procedure to turn over whatever they found to +the FBI? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Oh, yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, is there anything special in the nature of the skull +which you just mentioned which would have any bearing on the number of +shots fired in this assassination? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, but it would be one shell, one shot. + +Mr. SPECTER. That would be your conclusion? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That would be my conclusion. + +Mr. SPECTER. That it would take one shot to have separated that portion +of skull? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. You mentioned a missile found on a stretcher in Dallas. +Will you elaborate on what you were referring to there? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. This was given, I believe, in your statements there, to +a Special Agent Johnsen. I haven't seen this missile. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you referring there to the missile which was found on +the stretcher and to the sequence of events from which it was traced +back to one of the two victims of this shooting? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any more knowledge about that other than that +which you have already mentioned? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I do not. + +Mr. SPECTER. You mentioned a missile which was not removed from +Governor Connally. Specifically, what did you refer to there? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. There was in the early--this was on the day in Parkland +Memorial Hospital, and this information comes from Dr. George Burkley, +the President's physician, when, I believe, I asked him the condition +of Governor Connally, and have they removed the bullet from him. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did Dr. Burkley say? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Dr. Burkley said that to his knowledge he still has the +bullet in him. + +Mr. SPECTER. And at what time on November 22 was that? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. This was after we got into the hospital after the +shooting, sir, between then and 2 o'clock. + +Mr. SPECTER. So that the operation on Governor Connally had not been +completed at that point? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any additional knowledge about any bullet in +Governor Connally? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I do not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you now told us about all of the facts which you took +into account in your conclusion that there were more than three shots? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add, Mr. Kellerman, by way of +explanation or elaboration, to tell us which might be helpful with +respect to your conclusion based on all of these items which you have +described to us that there were more than three shots? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Gentlemen, I think if you would view the films yourself +you may come up with a little different answer. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, have you viewed the films, Mr. Kellerman? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I have; yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there something special in your viewing of the films +which led you to believe that there were more than three shots? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No; it doesn't point out more than three shots, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Which films are you referring to? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. These are the colored ones that were taken on the right +side. + +Mr. SPECTER. Taken by Mr. Abraham Zapruder? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't know. + +Mr. SPECTER. You are not familiar with the photographer? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I am not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, can you describe the view you say is from the +right-hand side of the automobile? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right. + +Mr. SPECTER. So that would be on the side of the road where the Texas +School Book Depository Building was? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And approximately where did those pictures begin and end? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. These pictures began as we turned off Houston Street +onto Elm. + +Mr. SPECTER. And where did they end? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. As we are, just before we are, going into the viaduct. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were those black and white or in color? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No; they were colored. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you seen any other films of the assassination? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; I saw a black-and-white, but I didn't--I saw a +black-and-white film. However, I didn't get enough out of it there +to---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Before proceeding any further, I would like to move for +the introduction in evidence of Exhibit 351. + +Representative FORD. It is approved. + +(The windshield referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 351 for +identification and was received in evidence.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything at all to add which you think might +be helpful, Mr. Kellerman, on the question of how many shots were +fired, or have you told us everything you have in mind on that question? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I believe I have, Mr. Specter. + +Senator COOPER. What was the name of the special agent driving the +car--the President's car? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. William Greer. + +Senator COOPER. He was the one to whom you spoke when you heard the +report? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Has he ever expressed any opinion to you as to the +number of shots that were fired? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. I think we are all of the opinion, Senator, +that we know of three. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, referring to Commission Exhibit No. 347, +will you pinpoint as precisely as you can on that aerial shot, aerial +picture, where the President's car was at the time of the first shot? +And mark that, if you would, please, with an "X" in red pencil. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. My guess would be right in here, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you mark as closely as you can where the +President's car was at the time of the second shot and mark that with a +"Y" in red. + +(Mr. Kellerman marking the picture.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, you have marked the cars being in approximately the +middle of the road; is that accurate, as you recollect it? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is the general procedure, Mr. Specter; they were +traveling in the center of the road. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, with respect to the time of the third shot, would +your marking be any different from the "Y" position? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No; it would not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, from the time of the shooting until the time the +automobile arrived at Parkland Hospital, did anyone in the President's +car say anything that you have not already told us about? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, there is a report from the Federal Bureau +of Investigation designated "Bureau File No. 105"--I believe there is +an "S", although it is somewhat illegible on my copy--"S2555, report +of Special Agent Robert P. Gemberling," dated December 10, 1963, which +refers to an interview of you by Special Agent Francis X. O'Neill, Jr., +and James W. Sibert, in which the following is set forth: + +"He"--and this obviously refers to you--"advised that he heard a shot +and immediately turned around looking past Governor Connally who was +seated directly in back of him, to the President. He observed the +President slumped forward and heard him say 'get me to a hospital.' +Mr. Kellerman then heard Mrs. Kennedy say, 'Oh, no,' as the President +leaned toward her." That is the end of the quotation. My question is: +Did you hear him; did you hear President Kennedy say, "Get me to a +hospital"? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear Mrs. Kennedy say, "Oh, no"? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any knowledge or explanation as to why you +would have been so quoted in the report of the FBI? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. When these two gentlemen talked to me, I don't know +where they got those quotes, because the only two things that I told +them, they were interested in what I heard from the people in the back +seat, and one said "my God, I have been hit," which was President +Kennedy, and Mrs. Kennedy said, "What are they doing to you?" + +Mr. SPECTER. You were interviewed, however, by Mr. O'Neill and Mr. +Sibert on November 22, 1963? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. November what? + +Mr. SPECTER. November 22. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No. November 22 is when they were in the morgue with me. +They interviewed me in the office that--it was around the 27th. This +was after the funeral. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did they have any conversation with you about these events +in the morgue? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Not that I recall, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a discussion with either of those gentlemen +about anything while you were at the morgue on November 22? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. The only thing I can recall discussionwise--I just +forget which one it was, one of the two--this was before we even knew +that a shell had been found from the hole in the President's shoulder. +We couldn't determine what happened to it. They couldn't find it in the +morgue; they couldn't find any leeway as to whatever happened to the +shell when it hit the President's shoulder; where did it go. So our +contention was that while he was on the stretcher in Dallas, and the +neurosurgeon was working over him no doubt with pressure on the heart, +this thing worked itself out. + +Mr. SPECTER. When you say "our contention," what do you mean by that? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. One of these agents--I forget which one it was; it could +have been Sibert or O'Neill, but I am not sure. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did what? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. We--our discussion or my discussion. + +Mr. SPECTER. You had a discussion and when you say "our contention" by +that do you mean that was the conclusion you came to? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Conclusion--that is right, sir--as to where this bullet +went into the shoulder and where did it go. + +Mr. SPECTER. While you are on that subject, was there any conversation +at the time of the autopsy on that matter itself? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much so. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate to the Commission the nature of that +conversation and the parties to it? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. There were three gentlemen who were performing this +autopsy. A Colonel Finck--during the examination of the President, +from the hole that was in his shoulder, and with a probe, and we were +standing right alongside of him, he is probing inside the shoulder with +his instrument and I said, "Colonel, where did it go?" He said, "There +are no lanes for an outlet of this entry in this man's shoulder." + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you say anything in response to that? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I said, "Colonel, would it have been possible that while +he was on the stretcher in Dallas that it works itself out?" And he +said, "Yes." + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there any additional conversation between you and +Colonel Finck at that time? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Not on that point; no, sir; not on that point. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there any conversation of any sort between you and +Colonel Finck which would be helpful to us here? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, from Humes, who was the other gentleman out there, +from the entry of the skull, from this hole here. + +Mr. SPECTER. You are now referring to the hole which you describe being +below the missing part of the skull? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it was confirmed that the entry of the shell +here went right through the top and removed that piece of the skull. + +Mr. SPECTER. And who confirmed that? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. One of the three gentlemen; I don't recall. + +Mr. SPECTER. You don't recall which one, but it was one of the three +doctors doing the autopsy? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right. + +Mr. SPECTER. So you are saying it confirmed that the hole that was +below the piece of skull that was removed, was the point of entry of +the one bullet which then passed up through the head and took off the +skull? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Right, sir. That is correct. + +Mr. SPECTER. Then that was all done by one bullet, based on what you +are telling us at this moment? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right. + +Mr. SPECTER. From the confirmation that one of the three doctors made? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, was there any other conversation between you and +Colonel Finck or Commander Humes---- + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. At that time, which was important on the subject we are +discussing? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Actually, from all the X-rays that were taken, and we +viewed them all together; when I say "we," I am saying the medical +people who were in the morgue at the time, the two Bureau agents, +myself, and also Mr. Greer, who was in there with me, naturally, they +were looking for pieces of fragmentation of this bullet. There was +none; only one piece to my knowledge. That was removed inside above the +eye, the right eye. + +Mr. SPECTER. You have now told us all about the conversations between +you and Colonel Finck and Commander Humes and anyone else at the +autopsy which are important on the positions of the hole and the wounds +in the head? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Right, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any other conversation with either Special +Agent O'Neill or Special Agent Sibert of the FBI on November 22, 1963, +other than your conversations about the wounds on President Kennedy? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, while we are discussing this in +relationship to your conversations with Special Agents O'Neill and +Sibert, were there any other comments made by anybody else present +at the autopsy about the path of the bullet into Mr. Kennedy's back, +relating to whether there was any point of exit or anything of that +sort? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Colonel Finck did all the talking, sir. He was the only +one. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you told us everything Colonel Finck said about +that subject? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much so; yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. So that there is nothing that was said on that subject +other than what you have already told us about? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No; that is right. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, I have read to you a part of what Special +Agents O'Neill and Sibert have attributed to you in an interview which +they have written about on November 22, 1963. Referring to that in +the portion which I have read to you and which I will reread, I want +you to direct your attention to the issue about which way you turned. +The report states, "He advised he heard a shot and immediately turned +around looking past Governor Connally who was seated directly in back +of him to the President." + +Now, did that describe a turn to the right or to the left? This is a +difficult question. Let me interject one thing. We are presupposing +here, based on your testimony, that you did not discuss with Special +Agents O'Neill or Sibert these specific events on November 22, to the +best of your recollection as we sit here today. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right. + +Mr. SPECTER. So that the question really goes to a situation where +perhaps they have an inaccurate day or your recollection is inaccurate +as to some of the things you might have told them. So, my prefatory +question would be whether that is an accurate statement and is +something you told them at some time. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't believe I did. I think I will stand on my +original statement. + +Representative FORD. The original statement you made here today? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; very much. + +Mr. SPECTER. So that the statement I just read to you, so far as your +best---- + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I can't---- + +Mr. SPECTER. So far as your best testimony is at this time, it was +simply not made by you on November 22? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right, now. Was that statement I just read to you, the +short one about your turn, to the best of your recollection at this +moment, did you ever make that statement to Special Agents O'Neill +and/or Sibert? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, everybody I have talked to I have always +turned to the right when I first heard the noise. I turned to my left +to view the people in my back seat because it is a more comfortable +position. So I don't think the turning is correct, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you say the report is incorrect? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right. + +Representative FORD. May I ask--you have viewed these colored motion +pictures which were taken during the assassination. Have you looked at +those to see what your own actions were during this period of time? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. Do they coincide with what you have testified to +here today? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. They certainly do. + +Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No. +352, and ask you if you can tell us what that picture represents? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; this was the rear seat of the President's car, +sir, after all the occupants were removed. + +Mr. SPECTER. And when did the rear seat of the President's car look +like the picture 352? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. After all the occupants were removed on the 22d of +November. + +Mr. SPECTER. When the car was parked at Parkland Hospital? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't know where this picture was taken, sir. This +could have been taken in the White House garage. + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes; but aside from where the picture was taken, is that +the way the car looked at the time it was at Parkland Hospital after +President Kennedy and Governor Connally were removed from the car? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe for the written record very briefly what +this picture shows? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. The picture shows the complete rear seat of the +Presidential limousine. + +Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, is on the rear seat? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. On the seat part of this car is splattered with blood; +there are a few petals of flowers, and the back seat cushion part is +pretty well bloodied up. + +Mr. SPECTER. I move for the introduction in evidence of Commission +Exhibit No. 352. + +Representative FORD. So admitted. + +(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 352 for +identification, and received in evidence.) + +Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you, through the Chairman, Commission Exhibit +No. 353, move its admission into evidence, and ask you to tell us what +this depicts. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. This is the same Presidential vehicle after the +occupants have been removed from the rear seat. It shows the--a goodly +amount of blood that had remained on the cushion and back part of the +seat and also little flower petals. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is Exhibit No. 353 an accurate representation of the way +the rear seat of the President's automobile looked after---- + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. After President Kennedy and Governor Connally were removed +to Parkland Hospital. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it is. + +Mr. SPECTER. You have described in answers to previous questions what +occurred upon the arrival at Parkland of the President's automobile. +What action, if any, did you take immediately after President Kennedy +and Governor Connally were taken into the hospital? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I believe we had got to the point where I had made +this phone call to Washington to alert these people back here of the +incident. + +Mr. SPECTER. And proceeding from that point? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. From this point, the agents who were in this followup +car had joined me in the emergency room. They took up security posts +at entrance into the emergency room to keep it clear of all people +except medical people. The only people allowed in there would be +workers. After this was done, Special Agent Kinney came to me and asked +permission to remove the President's car and our followup car to the +airport, to load it aboard this aircraft for shipment to Washington, +and I said, "Yes." + +At that time the next move was Special Agent Warren Taylor, who was +assigned to the then Vice President Johnson, came to me and he said, +"Mr. Johnson wants to talk to you." So, I followed him into this room +that they had the Johnson party in. He asked me the condition of +President Kennedy, which I told him that President Kennedy is still in +the emergency room, his condition is serious. He then said, "You let me +know of any developments." + +I then returned to the emergency room. By that time another shift of +agents, who were at the Trade Mart on duty for prior to our arrival, +reported into the emergency room. This is what is called as our +afternoon shift, the 4 to 12. Mr. Roberts, whose group was on the +followup car in the motorcade through Dallas, was the 8-to-4 shift. +The 4-to-12 shift then was under the supervision of Mr. Stewart Stout. +I then instructed Mr. Roberts to take his shift, which were the day +people, and join Special Agent Rufus Youngblood and stay with Vice +President Johnson. + +Mr. SPECTER. How many agents were they to take with them? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. They took the entire followup car, which would mean that +they had Roberts, Ready, Bennett, McIntyre; those four. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know where they went or what specifically they did +by way of establishing security for Vice President Johnson? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I really don't. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was your next activity? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. My next move, then, my next part in this was--by this +time it was after 1 o'clock--I am trying to pinpoint time--after 1, +because Dr. Burkley said that the President had died; it was after 1 +o'clock. By this time other people who were in with Mr. Kennedy, such +as his staff--I am speaking of Mr. O'Donnell, Mr. Powers, I believe +Larry O'Brien--through them, and I believe Mr. Hill, they had obtained +a casket from one of the funeral people in town. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where had Mrs. Kennedy been during this time? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Mrs. Kennedy was right outside the door to the emergency +room. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long, if at all, was she inside the emergency room +with President Kennedy? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. This I can't truly answer. However, I should say that, +as for the casket being brought into the hospital, another gentleman +came into this little doctor's room, his name I don't recall, but he +represented himself to be from the Health Department or commission, +some form. He said to me, he said, "There has been a homicide here, you +won't be able to remove the body. We will have to take it down there +to the mortuary and have an autopsy." I said, "No, we are not." And he +said, "We have a law here whereby you have to comply with it." + +With that Dr. Burkley walked in, and I said, "Doctor, this man is from +some health unit in town. He tells me we can't remove this body." The +Doctor became a little enraged; he said, "We are removing it." He +said, "This is the President of the United States and there should be +some consideration in an event like this." And I told this gentleman, +I said, "You are going to have to come up with something a little +stronger than you to give me the law that this body can't be removed." + +So, he frantically called everybody he could think of and he hasn't got +an answer; nobody is home. Shortly he leaves this little room and it +seems like a few minutes he is back and he has another gentleman with +him, and he said, "This is"--the name escapes me--he said, "He is a +judge here in Dallas," and he said, "He will tell you whether you can +remove this body or not." I said, "It doesn't make any difference. We +are going to move it," and I said, "Judge, do you know who I am?" + +And he said, "Yes," and I said, "There must be something in your +thinking here that we don't have to go through this agony; the family +doesn't have to go through this. We will take care of the matter when +we get back to Washington." The poor man looked at me and he said, "I +know who you are," and he said, "I can't help you out." I said, "All +right, sir." But then I happened to look to the right and I can see +the casket coming on rollers, and I just left the room and let it out +through the emergency entrance and we got to the ambulance and put it +in, shut the door after Mrs. Kennedy and General McHugh and Clinton +Hill in the rear part of this ambulance. + +I am looking around for Mr. Greer and I don't spot him directly because +I want to get out of here in a hurry, and I recognize Agent Berger and +I said, "Berger, you get in the front seat and drive and, Mr. Stout, +you get in the middle and I will set on this side," and as we are +leaving--Mr. Lawson, I should say, was in a police car that led us away +from Parkland Memorial Hospital. As we are leaving a gentleman taps on +the driver's window and they roll it down and he says, "I will meet you +at the mortuary." "Yes, sir." We went to the airport, gentlemen. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who said, "Yes, sir"? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I did, sir. We went to the airport. In the meantime, Mr. +Johnson had been taken to the airplane. They had secured the airport; +nobody was there. They had removed seats off the rear part of the plane +so we could put the body and the casket in it. As we got to the airport +the ramp was there; we opened the door, and we moved the casket out and +walked it right up to the plane. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there any further difficulty of any sort---- + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Imposed by any Texas officials on the removal of the body? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. Whatever happened to the hearse, I don't know. +I never left the plane. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe---- + +Mr. KELLERMAN. We left the hospital; we have a time on that; it is 4 +minutes after 2. It is about a 10-minute ride to the airplane. + +Mr. SPECTER. On the question of timing, pinning down these times as +best we can, how long did it take you to get from the shooting incident +to the time you arrived at Parkland, based on your best estimates? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, it seemed like hours, but we flew there, I +honestly don't know. I can't really tell you. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is the best estimate of the speed of your vehicle en +route from the shooting to the hospital? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't know. + +Senator COOPER. Let the record show that Congressman Ford has to go to +his official duties in the House and that I, Senator Cooper, am now +acting as Chairman. + +(At this point, Representative Ford left the hearing room.) + +Senator COOPER. Go ahead. + +Mr. SPECTER. Moving ahead, then, on to the sequences of time as best +you can recollect them, Mr. Kellerman, at what time was it ascertained +that the President had died and what was the basis of the pronouncement +of death. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That was on the death certificate, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you learn at or about 1 o'clock, while you were at +Parkland Hospital, that he had died? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I would think so. However, at that time let me say that +I wasn't watching any clock too closely and this time was given to me +by Dr. Burkley. + +Mr. SPECTER. Then you have no independent recollection of time at +Parkland when the death was announced or pronounced? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, then, you have specified the time of departure from +Parkland Hospital and en route back to Love Field at what, sir? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. We departed at 4 minutes after 2 from Parkland. + +Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive at the President's plane? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. 2:14. + +Mr. SPECTER. What were your next activities? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Our next time, we had waited until Judge Sarah Hughes +had arrived for the swearing-in ceremonies. + +Mr. SPECTER. What time did the swearing-in ceremonies occur? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. 2:37 p.m. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what time did the plane depart from Dallas? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. We left at 2:48. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you present during the swearing-in ceremonies? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. In a general way, tell us who else was present there, +recognizing that you don't know all the people there. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. President Johnson, Mrs. Johnson, Mrs. Kennedy, +Malcolm Kilduff. He was the press secretary for that trip. Congressman +Thornberry, Congressman Thomas, Marie Fehmer, Mrs. Evelyn Lincoln, +Jack Valenti, Bill Moyers, Special Agent Johns. There was another +congressional man--I believe his name was Congressman Roberts--Brooks; +I am sorry; Congressman Brooks. The picture was taken by Capt. Cecil +Stoughton and myself. + +Mr. SPECTER. What time did the President's plane arrive back at the +Washington area? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. May I look at my notes, sir? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes, you may. Identify for us, if you will, what notes you +are referring to. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. 5:58 p.m. This is my report. + +Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr. Kellerman has just referred +to a four-page report dated November 29, 1963, entitled "The +Assassination of President John F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963, at +Dallas, Tex.," which is a copy of a report he made, three of the sheets +being carbon copies, and one being a photostatic reproduction. So that +our record may be complete, let the record show that this is the same +report which Mr. Kellerman submitted to the Secret Service which was, +in turn, submitted by the Secret Service to the Commission, as one of +the statements in Exhibit 12, statement 11, which was furnished by +the Secret Service to the Commission as the report of the U.S. Secret +Service on the assassination of President Kennedy, under the exhibits +section. I will return that to you. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Fine; thank you. + +Mr. SPECTER. What were your activities; specifically where did you land +in the Washington area? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. We landed at Andrews Air Force Base. + +Mr. SPECTER. What were your activities then, immediately after landing +at Andrews? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. While en route from Dallas to Washington, D.C., I had +several telephone communications with my special agent in charge, +Gerald Behn, concerning this, transportation for the people aboard +the plane, an ambulance for the body of President Kennedy, and my +instructions. I was instructed to stay with the late President +Kennedy. Aboard this plane were agents of the 4-to-12 shift which, as +I mentioned earlier, was under the supervision of Mr. Stewart Stout; +a conference was held with Mr. Rufus Youngblood, who was in charge of +the Johnson detail at that time. He was informed that he would take +all the agents under Mr. Stout's supervision and they would remain with +them for the remainder of the day. That I would have Special Agents +Hill, Landis, Greer, and O'Leary. + +As we arrived at Andrews Air Force Base, arrangements were made prior +to having a lift brought up to the rear end of the plane, whereby all +the agents were requested by Mrs. Kennedy to carry this casket from the +plane to the ambulance. It was put aboard this carrier; from there we +took it from the carrier into the Navy ambulance. Mrs. Kennedy rode in +the back seat, or in the rear part of the ambulance, with Mr. Robert +Kennedy and General McHugh. + +In the front seat the ambulance was driven by Special Agent Greer, of +which Agents Landis and myself and Dr. Burkley rode in the front seat +to the U.S. Naval Hospital in Bethesda. At that point Navy officials +there instructed us where to take the ambulance, to what part of the +building, and remove the casket into the morgue facilities. + +As we landed in Andrews Air Force Base, I was met by our Chief, Mr. +James Rowley, who informed me that Mr. Sibert and Mr. O'Neill of the +FBI would join me at the Naval Hospital and to allow them in. I also +informed him that the vehicles--that is, the President's car and our +Secret Service followup car--are en route to Washington from Dallas, +and that he should assign some members from our Washington field office +to go over these cars for any evidence that might be left. In the +morgue, I should say that Special Agent Greer and myself remained all +night, Mr. O'Leary only briefly. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where did the---- + +Mr. KELLERMAN. The family was placed---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Where did the family go? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. They were placed in a room in the tower section of the +Naval Hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you actually accompany the body from the vehicle to +the morgue room? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And were you present during the entire autopsy? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Tell us in a general way---- + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I only left on three different occasions. + +Mr. SPECTER. For how long were you absent on those occasions? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. A minute or two to make a phone call. + +Mr. SPECTER. While the autopsy was in session, or when did you leave on +those three occasions? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. OK. First I was informed by a Navy personnel that I +should call Mr. Rowley. There wasn't any phone--there was a phone in +the room, but I wasn't aware of it at the time. So, I left and walked +out into the corridor and called him. This was my first knowledge that +they had found a projectile. The second call, I think I called home; +that was my first call to home and that was it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, the projectile that you just referred to was found +where? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. This was the projectile that was reportedly given to our +Special Agent Richard Johnsen as we were leaving the hospital in Dallas. + +Mr. SPECTER. How did you find out about that? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. He says it was given to him by a security man or +security officer in the hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. When did you first hear about it? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. The phone call with Mr. Rowley that morning after we had +got to the morgue. + +Mr. SPECTER. What time was this? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I am only guessing; 9 o'clock in the evening. + +Mr. SPECTER. Nine o'clock in the evening. You had said morning; you +didn't mean morning; you meant 9 o'clock in the evening when you had a +telephone call. From whom was the call again? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Rowley, Chief of Secret Service. + +Mr. SPECTER. You got the phone call from Mr. Rowley? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who had called him, if you know? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. This I don't know. + +Mr. SPECTER. But at that time Chief Rowley advised of the detection +of the bullet on the stretcher and brought you up to date with what +information was known at that time? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you described all the times that you were absent +from the room of the autopsy? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. The only other time that I was absent was when the +autopsy was about completed before the funeral directors were in, and +it was my decision to get Mr. Hill down and view this man for all the +damage that was done; so I went up to the floor where they were at and +brought him down and he inspected the incisions. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was your reason for that, Mr. Kellerman? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. More witnesses, Mr. Specter; I think more to view the +unfortunate happenings it would be a little better. + +Mr. SPECTER. What time did that autopsy start, as you recollect it? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Immediately. Immediately after we brought him right in. + +Mr. SPECTER. What time was that approximately, if you have a +recollection? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't have a recollection. + +Mr. SPECTER. What time did it end, if you recollect? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. We left the hospital for the White House at 3:56 in the +morning. + +Mr. SPECTER. 3:56 a.m. on November 23? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did the autopsy last all that time? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No. They were going to give these people a couple of +hours that they worked on them. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you observe, during the course of the autopsy, +bullet fragments which you might describe as little stars? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, of the numerous X-rays that were taken mainly of +the skull, the head. The reason for it was that through all the probing +which these gentlemen were trying to pick up little pieces of evidence +in the form of shell fragments, they were unable to locate any. From +the X-rays, when you placed the X-ray up against the light the whole +head looked like a little mass of stars, there must have been 30, 40 +lights where these pieces were so minute that they couldn't be reached. +However, all through this series of X-rays this was the one that they +found, through X-ray that was above the right eye, and they removed +that. + +Mr. SPECTER. How big a piece was that above the right eye, would you +say? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. The tip of a matchhead, a little larger. + +Senator COOPER. Let me ask a few questions. Mr. Kellerman, from what +you have just said, I think it would be correct that from the time you +began to assist in removing President Kennedy from his car to the time +you left him in the emergency room that you never saw any bullet on a +stretcher, either his stretcher or Governor Connally's stretcher? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I never saw any bullet, sir. + +Senator COOPER. I believe you testified that, at the time you heard +this first report, the President's car was approaching a viaduct? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Approaching, yes, but quite a little distance from it, +sir. + +Senator COOPER. Can you make any estimate as to how far away it was. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't know the footage, Senator Cooper. + +Senator COOPER. Can you see it? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; oh, yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Can you see the viaduct plainly? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Oh, yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Could you tell whether anybody was standing on top of +the viaduct, or did you observe? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I didn't notice anybody up there at all, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Did you observe whether anyone was in the immediate +vicinity of the viaduct? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Not at this distance; no. + +Senator COOPER. Do you have any--at the time of the shots, at the time +that you were conscious of these shots being fired, do you have any +judgment as to from what direction they came? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. None whatsoever. Except I should say again that when +this first one went off, which I indicated here that it sounded like +a firecracker to my right and, say, rear, I looked to my right to see +what it was. + +Senator COOPER. Then it would be correct to say it was your judgment at +the time, at the time of the report---- + +Mr. KELLERMAN. It was my judgment, sir. + +Senator COOPER. That it was to the right and to the rear? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That would be correct. It was my judgment, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Did you observe any persons standing to the right of +the car? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Maybe a handful. + +Senator COOPER. Did you see anything to indicate that any shot had been +fired by those persons? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; not at the time. + +Senator COOPER. When you heard the report and turned, could you see +this building known as the Texas Book Depository? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Not by name. You could see the building because we +passed right in front of it, sir. + +Senator COOPER. You didn't know it as the Texas Depository Building? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Not then, no, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Have you any idea how--what distance the President's +car traveled from the time you heard the first report until the time +you have described as hearing the flurry of shots? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I really don't know the distance. It wasn't too far. + +Senator COOPER. What? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. It wasn't too far. + +Mr. SPECTER. For the record, I have some more questions when we +reconvene. + +Senator COOPER. We will recess then until 2 o'clock. + +(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +Afternoon Session + +TESTIMONY OF ROY H. KELLERMAN, SPECIAL AGENT, SECRET SERVICE, RESUMED + + +The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m. + +Representative FORD. The Commission will come to order. + +Will you proceed, Mr. Specter? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes, thank you. Mr. Kellerman, immediately before the +luncheon recess, Senator Cooper had asked some questions relating to +the presence of anyone on the triple overpass which was in front of +the President's car. Did you have any occasion, immediately before +or immediately after the shooting, to look for anyone on the triple +overpass or in that vicinity? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I really didn't. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you in a position to state, then, whether there was or +was not someone on the triple overpass? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I am in no position to state that. + +Mr. SPECTER. At the time of the shooting, did you observe any bullets +ricochet off of the windshield or off of any other part of the +automobile? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No. If any of the bullets ricocheted off the windshield +or front part of the car, this would have been matter that was blown +over mine and the driver's head from, I would say, the explosion of +President Kennedy's head. + +Mr. SPECTER. But aside from the portions of President Kennedy's head +which you have already testified about, you observed nothing detectable +as being bullet fragments or bullets? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Ricocheting off any part of the car? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you ever observe any bullet fragments in the car +at rest after the shooting? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe a priest at Parkland Hospital? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; there were two. + +Mr. SPECTER. And approximately what time were they present at the +hospital? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. When we brought President Kennedy into the emergency +room, the request for a priest was made immediately by one of the +members of the staff. I do not recall who called for one. However, in +the interim, a second call was sent out. Consequently, two showed; not +at the same time, but one after the other. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long were they at the hospital? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Just a matter of a couple of minutes of time. + +Mr. SPECTER. And do you know where they went upon arrival at the +hospital? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. They went right in the emergency room with the +President. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you in the emergency room at the time they were there? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And do you know what services, if any, they performed +while they were there? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any conversations with either of them while +they were en route, either coming or going? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the state of readiness of Parkland +Hospital at your arrival, how long after you got there were stretcher +bearers at the front door? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. To the best of my knowledge, there were no stretcher +bearers at the car--none. + +Mr. SPECTER. At your arrival? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did some come shortly after you arrived? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, what sequence did follow with respect to the arrival +of the stretchers? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. When we arrived at the hospital, I had called to the +agents to go inside and get two stretchers on wheels. Between those +people and police officers who also entered the emergency room, they +brought the stretchers out. I did not at any time see a man in a white +uniform outside, indicating a medical person. + +Mr. SPECTER. When did you first see the first indication of a doctor? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. When we got in the emergency room itself proper. + +Mr. SPECTER. And do you know which doctor that was? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Not by name or sight; no, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. How many doctors did you see at that time? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. The room was full. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who were the individuals who brought the stretchers on +wheels, if you know? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Agents who were in the followup car, police officers who +were ahead of us on motorcycles. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, did you state how long the autopsy lasted +when you testified this morning? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I didn't. However, this is going to be an assumption +on time; I think I can pin it pretty well. + +Mr. SPECTER. Give us your best estimate on that, please. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Let's come back to the period of our arrival at Andrews +Air Force Base, which was 5:58 p.m. at night. By the time it took us +to take the body from the plane into the ambulance, and a couple of +carloads of staff people who followed us, we may have spent 15 minutes +there. And in driving from Andrews to the U.S. Naval Hospital, I would +judge, a good 45 minutes. So there is 7 o'clock. We went immediately +over, without too much delay on the outside of the hospital, into the +morgue. The Navy people had their staff in readiness right then. There +wasn't anybody to call. They were all there. So at the latest, 7:30, +they began to work on the autopsy. And, as I said, we left the hospital +at 3:56 in the morning. Let's give the undertaker people 2 hours. So +they were through at 2 o'clock in the morning. I would judge offhand +that they worked on the autopsy angle 4-1/2, 5 hours. + +Mr. SPECTER. And were you present when the funeral director's personnel +were preparing the body? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I was; yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And about what time, then, did they complete their work? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. They were all through at 3:30. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do immediately after they completed their +work? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. All right. Our communication between the Kennedy family +and staff, who were on another floor in the hospital, was in this +regard. We had telephone communication whereby we would tell them if +the body is ready to be taken out of the morgue and into the ambulance. +And they would hit the elevator and come right out the same way. So the +5 minutes it took to load the people in, we left the hospital morgue +part at least at 3:50, and, as I say, we were off at 3:56, driving to +the White House. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you go directly to the White House? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; we did. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did that complete your tour of duty for that day? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it did. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, with respect to the time you were present at the +autopsy, was there any conversation of any sort concerning the +possibility of a point of entry from the front of the President's body? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. You have testified about the impression you had as to the +source of the first shot, which sounded to you like a firecracker. Did +you have any impression as to the source of the other shots, which you +described as being a flurry? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. If you will excuse me just a minute. I was trying to +elaborate on the last question. + +Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me. Go ahead. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Just for the record, I wish to have this down. While the +President is in the morgue, he is lying flat. And with the part of the +skull removed, and the hole in the throat, nobody was aware until they +lifted him up that there was a hole in his shoulder. That was the first +concrete evidence that they knew that the man was hit in the back first. + +Mr. SPECTER. When did they lift him up and first observe the hole in +the shoulder? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. They had been working on him for quite some time, +Mr. Specter--through the photos and other things they do through an +autopsy. And I believe it was this Colonel Finck who raised him and +there was a clean hole. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was said, if anything, by those present at the +autopsy concerning the wound in the throat? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. To go back just a little further, the reason for the +hole in the throat, the tracheotomy; I am thinking they were of the +opinion that when the--when he was shot in the head, and they had found +this piece remaining above the eye underneath; I am sure there was some +concern as to where the outlet was, and whether they considered--this +is all an assumption now; whether they considered this--that there was +a hole here in the throat prior to the tracheotomy, I don't know. But +to complete the examination, they lifted him up by the shoulders, and +there was this hole. Now, I think you asked me a question. Could you +repeat it, please? + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, let's be sure that we have your final answer on the +question of any conversation at all about a point of entry in the front +part of his body, in his throat, or any place else. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't believe, Mr. Specter, that it was ever concluded +that there was an entry in the front. + +Mr. SPECTER. Then that completes the conversations at the autopsy? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. On any of the subjects I have asked you about? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. + +Mr. SPECTER. The question which I had then started to ask you was +whether you had any impression at the time of the second and third +shots, which you described as a flurry of shots, as to the point of +origin or source of those shots. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. The only answer I can give to that is that they would +have to come from the rear. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, is that the impression or reaction you had at the +time of the flurry? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever, since the time of the assassination to this +date, had any contrary impression, reaction, or view that the shots +came from the front of the President? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, Mr. Kellerman, with respect to the immediate reaction +by you to the emergency situation, did you consider at any time leaving +your seat, on the right front of the President's automobile, to go into +the rear portion, where the President sat? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is the basis for--or what was the basis for your +conclusion on that? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. After I had heard President Kennedy's voice say, "My +God, I am hit," I viewed him, which was enough for me that he was. My +decision was to get this man to a hospital, because he needed medical +treatment. And during the few seconds that I instructed the driver to +get out of here, we are hit, my second instruction was to the man in +the lead car ahead of us for the same, to lead us to a hospital, that +we are hit. I then turn around, and I had two people injured. Not only +was the President down in his seat; the Governor was down in his seat. +My presence back there was gone. On top of that, I had Mr. Hill lying +across that trunk. + +Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean when you say, sir, that your presence +back there was gone? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. They were comfortable, if there is a comfort in this. +Mr. Hill was taking care of Mrs. Kennedy. Mrs. Connally was over the +Governor; there was no motion. The next thing was a doctor, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you consider presenting a further shield for the +President at that time? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did the metallic handhold which you described early in +your testimony as being about 15 inches off the top of the seat and +going all the way across the width of the car, did that metal structure +present any substantial impediment to your moving from the front seat +to the rear seat of the automobile? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, I think it would have been a small +obstacle. However, let me say this: If I thought in my own mind that +I was needed back there, there wouldn't have been an obstacle strong +enough to hold me. + +Mr. SPECTER. How about the presence of Governor Connally in the jump +seat? Would the presence of Governor Connally or any passenger in the +jump seat provide a substantial obstacle to your moving from your seat +to shield the President's body? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Not at all. It wouldn't have made any difference, sir. +Why? Because my job is to protect the President, sir, regardless of the +obstacles. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Greer at any time use the radio in your car? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, did the President's automobile at any time +slow down after the first shot? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No; not that I recall. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chairman, that completes our questions, sir. + +Representative FORD. As you turned from Houston onto Elm, you were then +facing the triple overpass? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. You were looking forward at the time? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. + +Representative FORD. You were not looking to the side particularly, or +back at all? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Don't let me change your thought, Mr. Congressman. But +as we turned left on Elm, there is also another curve before you get to +this overpass. + +Representative FORD. A rather slight curve to the right? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much. I still knew there was an overpass. + +Representative FORD. But your concentration was ahead? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Ahead. + +Representative FORD. Not to the side or to the rear? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No; not to the rear especially; that is true. Let me +explain a little more. When you are riding in this automobile, which +is with him, and on your right side, naturally you are observing more +on the right. It is obvious. However, you still have time periodically +to glance over to the left for viewing anything that might be of a +danger--whether it is people or any other object. + +Representative FORD. There is no way you would know from personal +observation in what direction the President was looking at the time he +was hit by the first shot? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; I would not. + +Representative FORD. Could you outline for us here the process by which +you were put in charge of this particular operation? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. + +Representative FORD. Can you outline for us the procedure that is +followed in such cases? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, indeed. As I said earlier, we have three +people, for a better word, in charge of the White House detail. Mr. +Behn--Gerald Behn--is the special agent in charge. There are two +assistants, Floyd Boring and myself. On all trips this was a divided +matter. And this one was my trip. Not that I picked it or anything. +It was my trip that Mr. Behn said, "You will make this one with the +President." The other two people would have other duties to do. And +this is how it fell on to me for that day, sir. + +Representative FORD. Once this assignment is made by Mr. Behn, what +happens after that? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. In regard to who, sir? + +Representative FORD. To your responsibilities. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. The overall. + +Representative FORD. In other words, from that assignment by Mr. Behn, +you take charge; you execute; you make assignments and so forth? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Only one thing. I am not going to say that I don't make +assignments. Mr. Congressman, these people all work in a team form. We +have three shifts. They work together for a long time, and to say this, +that they knew each other's footprints, is probably an overstatement. +But they know each other's methods. Let me go back just one step +further. I want to give it clear to you. + +Let's say the four or five stops that we had in Texas on this visit--we +had one overnight in Fort Worth. All right. Each time, each stop that +we make, the individual that we had sent out ahead to set up and +coordinate the program with the people in that area, whether it is +security or otherwise, through communications for the days he is away, +he keeps us abreast of what is going on, who to expect, and so forth. + +And, again, I should say that in the morning of the 22d in Fort Worth, +this lad called me--Mr. Lawson--asked about the top, whether it should +remain on or off, which decision was reached from Mr. O'Donnell. I then +asked him--I said, "Are we going to be all right in Dallas?" He said, +"Oh, yes; it is a good program." Fine. If and when we ever arrived at +that spot, I would ask this man, is there anything unusual when we get +here. That is a general question that I have given these people all the +time. + +Representative FORD. In other words, once the assignment has been made +that you handle this trip, and in this case there was first a stop at +El Paso, then at Houston---- + +Mr. KELLERMAN. San Antonio. + +Representative FORD. San Antonio; then Houston, Fort Worth. You stayed +overnight at Fort Worth? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. + +Representative FORD. Then you proceeded to Dallas on the 22d? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Correct; yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. As I understand it, when you arrived at San +Antonio, the man that is in charge there, you immediately contacted. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, indeed. + +Representative FORD. When you go to Houston, the same process? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. Fort Worth, the same? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Fine. + +Representative FORD. And when you got to Dallas, when you arrived +there, whom did you see first? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Lawson. + +Representative FORD. And what did he tell you? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. He said, "Your program is all set. We have all the +equipment and there should be no problem here." Fine. + +Let me go back to Fort Worth again. On that night we had an overnight. +The gentleman we had working that stop had an added thing thrown into +him, which was the speech before breakfast. The President spoke to a +crowd across the main street in front of the hotel. After the President +retired that night, he and I went down to that parking lot. I said, +show me where this man is going to be, where the platform is going to +be, where are you going to have all these folks, and how close are they +going to be; show me. He did. + +You have got to keep abreast of these things, Mr. Congressman. Well, it +is your job. + +Representative FORD. Were all of these men that had charge of these +various operations in San Antonio, Houston, Fort Worth, Dallas, men of +experience? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much; very much so. I want to give you a little +information on how these people are selected for doing your advance +work out of Washington. In the first place, when they are brought in, +you instruct them on everything you do securitywise around the White +House. You instruct them in rangework, followup car work, every little +phase entailed. Then say you have a little movement in town--the +President has a press conference, as an example. He doesn't do that. +Send him with an older fellow. Even if he just walks around, learn it. +Take him another place, a departure from an airport, or a theater. Give +him four or five. Then give him one, give him a little departure at +an airport, or a hotel. But have somebody with him. Then there is no +mistake made. + +Representative FORD. Now, when these men are assigned to handle the +responsibilities in a particular city, such as Lawson in Dallas, is +Lawson on the staff here or is he a man from Dallas with the Secret +Service? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. These are all people we have in the White House detail, +sir. + +Representative FORD. In other words, Lawson was a White House detail +man from Washington? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Right, sir. He is one of the men off those three shifts. + +Representative FORD. Now, when was your assignment made as the man in +charge of this particular operation? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Oh, I am going to say a week ahead, for lack of a better +time--in fact, I knew that much of it. + +Representative FORD. November---- + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Say the 17th, for a better day. + +Representative FORD. On or before November 17th you got this assignment. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Surely. I knew that I was making a trip, and none of the +other two gentlemen were. + +Representative FORD. What did you do after you got this +assignment--what steps did you take? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. OK. The steps that I took--this entails work right +here in Washington. First, to determine, to staff people in the White +House, who is all going to make it, who are the passengers. This is a +thing that those advance people out in the field do not know when they +leave. You set up the time schedule--flight time--because the people +on the other end want you there at 11:30 in the morning, you have to +work back a flight time from Washington, or the helicopter time from +the White House. All this is incorporated. Weatherwise--you will use an +automobile. Allow a little more time. All right. + +From the people that are out in the field on those 4 or 5 different +spots, they are the ones that coordinate with the local folks what +program they would like, which is forwarded back, conferred with staff +people, whether it is approved, disapproved, added, or cut out. And +about the day before you leave, then it is all gelled. + +Representative FORD. But this is your principal responsibility, to pull +everything together. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. + +Representative FORD. Now, according to the various reports we have, +when you know you are going to a particular city, or several cities, +you have a method or a procedure to check to see if there are any +individuals or organizations that present a serious threat to the +President. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. We have what we call a Protective Research +Section. This has been in existence for many years, through Roosevelt's +days--I will go back that far. Through the combined efforts of various +sources, through other agencies, they have a file on all the, let's +say dangerous, for a better word, people that could be suspected in +the city he arrives in. They will furnish the agents on those three +shifts, if there are a number of them, or even one--it doesn't make any +difference--all the data possible on that person--it will be given to +each shift. It is a report form; can be read by all. And, if possible, +there is a photograph included. That will be circulated around. + +Representative FORD. Now, when you got your assignment on or about +November 17, what did you do in this regard? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. One little thing I should say. Well, I am sorry. One +of the first things we do, when a trip is planned, is make a call on +that PRS Section and tell them, "On November 21 we are going to be in +San Antonio, Houston, and Fort Worth. On the 22d we will be in Dallas, +Austin, and at the ranch." And they take it from there, sir. + +Representative FORD. So, on or about November 22d, you made this +inquiry. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. This inquiry, sir, would be made a week ahead of time. + +Representative FORD. A week ahead of the date that you were appointed? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That's right. + +Representative FORD. Who would make that inquiry? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That would be made by any one of the three people--Mr. +Behn, Mr. Boring, or myself, or one other person which I interrupted +you a second ago. A departure is given to one man from one of the +shifts who would set up a departure from the White House to Andrews. +He, too, in turn notifies our Protective Research Section of this thing. + +Representative FORD. Well, do you know who in this case for this trip +made that inquiry of the Protective Research Section? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't have the name right now. + +Representative FORD. Would there be a record of that made? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. I think we ought to have that for the record--the +time it was made. You don't recall making it yourself, however. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No. + +The CHAIRMAN. Do you know if it was actually done? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. It is always done, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. I know. But do you know if it was done in this case? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Not for a fact; no. + +Representative FORD. But you must assume it was done. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much so. + +Representative FORD. Were you given the information from this inquiry, +even though you didn't make it yourself? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. What kind of information, sir? + +Representative FORD. Well, about those people who are considered +dangerous or a problem in any one of these four or five cities where +the President was going on this trip. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I will have to check this, but there was no record. + +Representative FORD. In other words---- + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No information. + +Representative FORD. In other words, PRS never turned over to you +any information about any dangerous individuals in any one of these +communities on this trip. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That's right. + +Representative FORD. Is this unusual? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. But let me reserve the right to recheck that +question again; may I? + +Representative FORD. Absolutely. All we want in this case, as in any +other, are whatever the facts are to the best of records that are +available. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. All right. + +Representative FORD. In the report from the Secret Service it says, +and I quote, "Because of the incidents on the occasion of the visit of +Ambassador Stevenson to Dallas earlier in the fall, special attention +was given to extremist groups known to be active in Dallas. Appendix A +describes the action taken in Dallas in more detail." Were you familiar +with that part of the Secret Service activity prior to your departure +for Texas? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I have knowledge of that; yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. How much knowledge? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. But not enough to be written up, that I recall, sir. + +Representative FORD. Well, could you describe for the Commission what +knowledge you did have in this regard? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. The only knowledge I can describe to you, sir, is the +fact that we were aware of what this Ambassador went through down +there. However, we had no information that such an incident would +happen to President Kennedy on his trip into that State. + +Representative FORD. But I gather from this report, which is the +official report of the Treasury Department, that somebody knew of these +previous incidents, and was thereby alerted to the possibility of--the +potential of one, because the report says, "Special attention is given +to extremist groups known to be in Dallas." Now, could you tell us what +special attention was given? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No. Outside of the fact that everybody was alerted to +this previous incident. + +Representative FORD. PRS, Protective Research Section, didn't tell +you, as the person in charge, of any individuals or of any groups that +wanted special attention? I am using "special attention" as in the +report. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Right as of this minute, the only knowledge that I have +of any incident that could happen was in San Antonio, when I believe we +had information of some pickets. Now, those pickets showed up outside +of--he made a speech at that space hospital. Well, anyway, in view of +that, I cannot reach the name right now--these pickets were out at, +let's say, the main gate to the grounds, and just stayed right there +with their placards. + +Representative FORD. Also on the report it says, "In accordance with +the usual practice, the local FBI office informed the local Secret +Service office of any information which affected the President's visit." + +Mr. KELLERMAN. They did. That is the normal practice. + +Representative FORD. That was the normal procedure? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. It is always the normal procedure; yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. Now, whom would they have informed in this case in +Dallas? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Their report would have come to Washington, and relayed +to our Protective Research Section. + +Representative FORD. And the FBI in this instance gave you what +information, if any, that you should relay back to the people---- + +Mr. KELLERMAN. The only thing I can recall right now, sir, are those +pickets in San Antonio. + +Representative FORD. Well, may I say if on your return to your office +you find any information on this particular point, I think it would be +very helpful for the record, and it should be included in the record. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. All right. I surely will. + +Representative FORD. The report also says, "On October 30, 1963, the +local FBI office gave the local Secret Service officer the name of a +rightwing individual in the Dallas area. An investigation was made. +On November 21 and 22 the local FBI office referred two pieces of +information to the local Dallas office of the Secret Service." Were you +familiar with that? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No. + +Representative FORD. Who would, under your normal procedures, have been +familiar with that? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. It would be the same organization, Protective Research +Section. + +Representative FORD. But they did not give you any information of this. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No. + +Representative FORD. Is this unusual or different? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. If they evaluated this information, there would have to +be a degree of seriousness. + +Representative FORD. But, as far as you can best recollect at this +point, you were never so informed. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, indeed. + +Representative FORD. The report does go on to say, and I quote, "One +involved scurrilous literature already in the hands of the Secret +Service, Exhibit 4. The second involved possible picket trouble which +the local police were aware of." That is the picket trouble you were +talking about? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Apparently so. + +Representative FORD. The report also says on page 8, "Special Agent +Lawson, SAIC Sorrel, and Special Agent Howlett met with Dallas +law-enforcement officials. Special Agent Howlett also met with an +informant. They followed up all leads and tips and checked scurrilous +literature, Exhibit 4." Did you have any information personally about +this activity by Lawson, Sorrel, and Howlett? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. + +Representative FORD. Was it their responsibility to do it, to undertake +that kind of an operation? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Everybody but Lawson. These other two gentlemen you are +speaking of are field agents out of Dallas. Yes; they would investigate +the seriousness of this thing, through the information furnished by +the FBI. And, depending on the degree now, this would be furnished our +Protective Research Section here in Washington. + +Representative FORD. Now, did Lawson or anybody else communicate to you +what was going on in this regard? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, no. I do not think Mr. Lawson got in this +investigative part at all. It would not be any part of his duties. + +Representative FORD. I am only reading from the report. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. + +Representative FORD. And the report goes on to say, "Their +investigations did not bring to light the name or the individual Lee H. +Oswald, and he or his name was not known to them or any other Secret +Service agent in Dallas or elsewhere prior to this shooting of the +President." Would that be the same as far as you are concerned? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is very true. + +Representative FORD. You did not know of Lee H. Oswald? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. None whatsoever. + +Representative FORD. Was it surprising to you that when the President +was going to a city as large as Dallas, that there were no names turned +over to you, either by your Protective Research Section or by any other +Federal agents--individuals or an individual dangerous to the President? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I recall, to give you an answer, Congressman, that it +did seem strange that here we are hitting five cities in one State +and--and from the apparent trouble Ambassador Stevenson had down there +one evening, we certainly should have had some information on somebody. + +Representative FORD. Hypothetically, if you go to other large +metropolitan areas, do you normally get names from various agencies, +including PRS, warning you of an individual or groups that might cause +trouble? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Again I say that our PRS would recheck their files, +from all the cities--from all the cases that they have in that city, +and furnished us information, whether a report or photographwise. +They in turn would--and I believe I am correct on this--they in turn +notify the Bureau of this visit, or may have people check through their +files. They can doublecheck this stuff. I don't recall any information +whatsoever, except that picket thing. + +Representative FORD. It is surprising to me, as well, and I gather it +was certainly, on reflection, surprising to you---- + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; it is. + +Representative FORD. Was this in itself any warning to you that there +might be some breakdown in the system? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Gee--no; I never cherished that thought, sir. + +Representative FORD. You assumed that the proper liaison between +various agencies was taking place, and your PRS was operating +effectively? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Oh, yes; very much; yes indeed. Now, if I am wrong, when +I check these two questions back here, I will let you know. + +Mr. SPECTER. Congressman Ford, on this line, perhaps I should say that +organizationally we are divided into phases where this is a separate +phase in terms of protective devices. So, for the prepared part of what +the staff has set up, we have by design omitted that portion here, with +later witnesses to go into all these questions in some detail for the +Commission. + +Representative FORD. I was trying to get from Mr. Kellerman--from his +testimony he was indicating that he was the person who from on or about +November 17 had the responsibility. And I was trying to trace precisely +how this responsibility was carried through, up to the point where you +started out this morning. Do I understand, then, that at some later +point in the Commission hearings with other witnesses we will go back +into the process of how these decisions are made, as far as PRS is +concerned? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir. There will be detailed witnesses on the workings +of PRS, and how they functioned with respect to this trip, and what +information the FBI had or the State Department had about Lee Harvey +Oswald, and whatever coordination, if any, was present. Our thought was +that that would be handled separately, organizationally. Certainly, to +some extent it is impossible to draw sharp lines of distinction here. +But that is the way the staff has prepared the distinctions--with Mr. +Kellerman going more specifically, as the other witnesses of today, on +the sequence of events themselves at the assassination. + +Representative FORD. But, as far as the procedures within PRS and the +relationship between the Secret Service, the FBI, and other Federal +agencies, that will come up later on in other witnesses who are more +familiar with the precise workings. + +Mr. SPECTER. Exactly; yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. Who actually had the responsibility to check the +route from the airport to the Trade Mart? I mean to check the route, +lay out whatever security precautions should be taken from the outset +until the day of the President's visit? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That was coordinated, Mr. Congressman, between Mr. +Lawson and members of the Dallas Police Department, sir. + +Representative FORD. You did not arrive in Dallas until the morning of +the assassination? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; that is correct, sir. + +Representative FORD. As you were in the car, in the right front seat, +and the car turned from Main Street right into Houston, you had for a +relatively short period of time an opportunity to look at the Texas +School Depository Building. Did you look at it; did you notice anything +about it? What was your reaction, if any, to that particular building? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Not knowing the name of the building--let me say this: +When you are driving down this street, regardless of Houston or which, +and you have buildings on either side of you, you are going to scan +your eyes up and down this building. + +Representative FORD. Did this building create, as you turned into +Houston Street, any particular problem that would have alerted you one +way or another? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. None whatsoever. It did not produce a thing. + +Representative FORD. Your eyes scanned the area. Did they scan +sufficiently to identify anything, to be alerted by anything in any +window, on the roof, or anyplace else? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. + +Representative FORD. Did Mr. Lawson or anybody else indicate to you at +any time that the Book Depository Building was a problem? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. + +Representative FORD. I mean beforehand. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Never mentioned it. + +Representative FORD. Did Mr. Lawson or anybody else discuss with you +any particular danger involved in the overpass, the triple overpass? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. + +Representative FORD. Did you have minute knowledge as to the route in +Dallas, or was that left up to Lawson in his judgment? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Left up to Lawson and the people in Texas. + +Representative FORD. But he did tell you when you arrived in Dallas; +what, again? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. And the people in Texas, the police department. + +Representative FORD. What did he tell you? When you arrived in Dallas +that morning, he told you something. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. He said, "This is your reception committee, +which is at the bottom of the ramp leading out." I said, "Are we all +right in Dallas here all the way for today?" And he said, "Yes; this +will be fine." I said, "All right; let's get on with it." + +Representative FORD. When were you first interviewed by anyone +regarding the directions from which the shots came? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't recall ever being interviewed. + +Representative FORD. Did you ever make a statement for submission to +the Commission or to your supervisors? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Just this statement that I submitted here. + +Representative FORD. Which is included in the Secret Service report. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. Did you have anything to do with setting up the +method of trying to apprehend the alleged assassin? Was that outside or +within your jurisdiction? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Outside, sir. + +Representative FORD. You did nothing in that regard. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Nothing. + +Representative FORD. I believe that is all. I have to go back to a very +important committee meeting, Mr. Chairman. I may be able to get back +later, Mr. Chief Justice. + +The CHAIRMAN. I will be here the rest of the afternoon, so there will +be no necessity of your coming back if you are tied up. Thank you very +much for presiding all day. + +Mr. Specter, have you some more questioning? + +Mr. SPECTER. I have just one or two other questions. + +Mr. Kellerman, you referred to a single statement which you said you +had made. In the report of the U.S. Secret Service on the assassination +of President Kennedy, on Exhibit 12, statement 11--we have the first +statement which you made, which is four pages, and that is the one to +which you referred, to refresh your recollection earlier today, and I +show you what appears to be a second very brief report which you made 1 +day later under date of November 30, 1963, with your name and initials, +and ask you if you made this one, also. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. You referred to you and Mr. Boring being the +two assistant special agents in charge. Is that status the same at the +present time, or are there now three assistant special agents in charge? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. There are three. Mr. Rufus Youngblood is the third one. + +Mr. SPECTER. Has that slight shift been made since the time of the +assassination. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, those are my only additional questions, +sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Craig, would you like to ask any questions, or do you +think of any other avenue that we should explore here? + +Mr. CRAIG. No, sir; thank you, Mr. Chief Justice. As the interrogation +has progressed, I have been handing notes to counsel and he has been +very kind in asking those questions. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Murray, can you think of anything? + +Mr. MURRAY. No, thank you, Mr. Chief Justice. + +Mr. SMITH. Off the record. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. CRAIG. Mr. Kellerman, is there any special agent in charge of the +protection of the person next in line in succession, to your knowledge? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. I think Mr. Rowley would like to man that. I think they +have had a little difficulty to find a man. + +Mr. CRAIG. There is no such person now? + +Mr. KELLERMAN. No, they have made numerous attempts with the people, +and so far they have got a negative reply. + +The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mr. Kellerman, thank you very much, sir, for your +attendance and for your testimony. + +Mr. KELLERMAN. Thank you, sir. + +(At this point, Representative Ford left the hearing room.) + +The CHAIRMAN. Now, Mr. Specter. + +Mr. SPECTER. We will call Mr. Greer. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Greer, how do you, sir. + +Mr. Greer, will you raise your right hand and be sworn. + +Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing +but the truth before this Commission, so help you God? + +Mr. GREER. I do. + +The CHAIRMAN. Would you be seated, please. + + +TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM ROBERT GREER, SPECIAL AGENT, SECRET SERVICE + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please. + +Mr. GREER. William Robert Greer. + +Mr. SPECTER. By whom are you employed, Mr. Greer? + +Mr. GREER. The Treasury Department, Secret Service Division of the +Treasury Department. + +Mr. SPECTER. How old are you at the present time? + +Mr. GREER. Fifty-four years old. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been with the Secret Service Department? + +Mr. GREER. I have been with the Secret Service Department since October +1, 1945. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your educational background? + +Mr. GREER. I have just education in public schools in Ireland, really. + +Mr. SPECTER. And---- + +Mr. GREER. I took courses here in this country. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you a high school graduate, then? + +Mr. GREER. Well, I have 2 years of high school. + +Mr. SPECTER. And when did you complete this educational background? + +Mr. GREER. I have to go back now. + +Mr. SPECTER. Approximately. + +Mr. GREER. About 1924 or 1925. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline in a general way what your activities +have been since that time, up until your joining the Secret Service, +please? + +Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. I was born and raised on farmwork, a farmer. And +I done that until I came to this country in February 1930. I worked +for a period of time--I lived in Boston for a little while. I worked +one summer on the estate of Henry Cabot Lodge. I was a chauffeur for a +family in Brookline, Mass., for about a year. And then I went to New +York, Dobbs Ferry, N.Y. I lived there for 13 years as a chauffeur for a +private family in Dobbs Ferry, N.Y. Then I went in the Navy in November +1942. I got discharged on September 18, 1945. + +Mr. SPECTER. What were your principal duties while in the Navy? + +Mr. GREER. I was seaman first class. I did almost 2 years at +Bainbridge, Md., with the seaman guard there. And then I was assigned +to the presidential yacht in May 1944, until I was discharged in +September. But most of my duty was at the White House in that period, +that year. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how long after discharge from the Navy was it before +you joined the U.S. Secret Service? + +Mr. GREER. Well, I got out of the Navy September 18 and October 1 I +went with the Secret Service--a matter of 14 or 15 days. + +Mr. SPECTER. Describe your duties since joining the Secret Service, +please. + +Mr. GREER. Since joining the Secret Service I was assigned to the +uniform force at first with the Secret Service at the Bureau of +Engraving and Printing. For about 2 years I was with the physical +education part of it. We had a gymnasium there. I was an instructor +there part-time--part of the time. And then I was assigned for about 2 +years to pick up the food of the President at the White House. I had +that duty for about 2 years. And then I went back to the Treasury for +a short period, a few months. And then I was reassigned to the White +House as an agent in November--1950 I went, there. I was made a full +agent that following August 1951. I was there as a special officer from +November to August 1951. + +Mr. SPECTER. And have you been assigned to the White House staff since +that time? + +Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I have been there ever since. + +Mr. SPECTER. And while assigned at the White House staff, how much of +your duty has involved driving the President's car? + +Mr. GREER. Well, I drove the followup car for quite a long time--you +know, off and on. And then I drove the President at intervals +during President Truman's and President Eisenhower's terms. I was +also assigned a great many times to Mrs. Eisenhower. When she left +Washington, I was always assigned to her, to travel with her. And I +have been assigned to the President, to drive the President, since +election day, with President Kennedy. I was the senior agent assigned +to him, to drive him. + +Mr. SPECTER. How did you get to Dallas yourself back on November 22, +1963? + +Mr. GREER. I flew--I was on a plane with the President all during the +trip. And I flew from Fort Worth to Dallas that morning. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, I hand you documents which have been marked +Commission Exhibits 344, 345, and 346. I ask you if you can identify +those, starting with 344, what that depicts. + +Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I can identify this automobile very well. That is +the 1961 Lincoln, especially built for the President. And this is a +rear view of that same automobile. This is the interior of that Lincoln +Continental. Yes, sir, everything is very positive that I can identify. + +Mr. SPECTER. How did that automobile--how was that automobile +transported to Texas? + +Mr. GREER. It was flown there in a C-130. + +Mr. SPECTER. And do you know where it was flown to? + +Mr. GREER. Well, it was flown--let's see, I forget the day before where +our first stop was on that trip right now. I would have to go back into +my papers. But we used I believe more than one stop. I am trying to +think where we used it before we went to Dallas. It could have been at +Houston. I am not too sure whether we used it at Houston the day before +or not. I would have to go back in my records. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is it possible the first time you used the automobile on +that Texas trip was at Dallas? + +Mr. GREER. Right now it is so long ago, I have almost forgotten whether +we did use it at Houston prior to that or not. I am not too sure where +the first stop was. We sometimes use it more than one stop. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is there any covering which can be put on the President's +automobile? + +Mr. GREER. There is--when we put the plastic--I put the plastic on it, +we have a black canvass-type cover that buttons over the top of the +plastic. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you please describe in a general way the plastic +covering you just referred to. + +Mr. GREER. The plastic covering is made in six pieces. Three of +them--there are two corner pieces and a centerpiece on the back that +we fasten together before we set it up onto the car. Then there is a +front--one piece that goes across the front seat after that. Then the +last pieces we put on are two that go in the center, and they meet +together in the center--they come together in the center. That makes +the six pieces that it comes down in. We have to break it down in the +six pieces to store it in the trunk. It is kept in the trunk of the car +whenever we are not using it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are the three pieces that you described as being joined +together for the rear portion disassembled at all times? + +Mr. GREER. We disassemble them to store them in the trunk, yes, sir. +But we put them together on the floor, on the ground or something like +that--we put the three pieces together, then we lift it up and set it +in place, which covers the back seat of the car. + +Mr. SPECTER. And after you put the three pieces together for the back +portion of the car, how many additional pieces are there for the +balance of the car? + +Mr. GREER. Three; three more pieces. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how are they secured to the automobile itself? + +Mr. GREER. They are secured with--I don't know what you would call +it--these fasteners, snaps, kind of snaps that snap on them. We have +them made that way so that we can install them or take them apart very +fast. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, is this cover transparent? Can it be seen through? + +Mr. GREER. The plastic; yes. You can see through it. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is the plastic made of, if you know? + +Mr. GREER. Well, it is a type of plastic. I just don't know who +manufactures it. But it is clear plastic. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is it bulletproof or bullet resistant? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir. It is weather--the idea back of it was for +inclement weather, that the President could be seen if the weather was +too bad to have him outside. That is what we had in mind originally +with it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any personal knowledge of any efforts made to +obtain a bulletproof or bullet-resistant transparent top? + +Mr. GREER. Now, or before that? + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, start beforehand. + +Mr. GREER. No; I never had anything to do with that at all. I never had +anything to do with anything being made for that. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what efforts have been made subsequent to +the assassination of President Kennedy to obtain such a bulletproof +transparent top? + +Mr. GREER. Only just hearing conversation; nothing definite; no, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Approximately what time, to the best of your recollection, +did President Kennedy arrive in Dallas on November 22? + +Mr. GREER. I would have to--I would not tell you right now. I would +have to go back and look into my--you probably have it there. I have it +also on my report. + +Mr. SPECTER. If you don't recall the exact time, just give us your best +estimate. + +Mr. GREER. Approximately 11:35. I am guessing. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what was his mode of transportation into Dallas? + +Mr. GREER. He flew on an Air Force plane. + +Mr. SPECTER. And where did he fly from? + +Mr. GREER. From Fort Worth to Dallas. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you tell us in a general way what he did upon arrival +in Dallas at Love Field? + +Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. He got off the plane. He walked along the fence +along there, and shook hands with a great many people. There was a +large crowd there. He and Mrs. Kennedy both walked along and shook +hands with many people. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, approximately how long after arrival at Love Field +did he get into his automobile? + +Mr. GREER. I would guess probably, say, approximately maybe 10 minutes. + +Mr. SPECTER. What were the weather conditions like that day as he got +into his automobile? + +Mr. GREER. The weather was very nice that day. It was a beautiful day +in Dallas, very fine day, warm, fairly warm, nice day. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was the car open? + +Mr. GREER. The car was open; no top. + +Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how many automobiles were there in that +motorcade? + +Mr. GREER. I wouldn't have--couldn't tell you right now how many. There +was quite a few cars. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who were the occupants of the President's car? + +Mr. GREER. On the back seat, on the right rear seat, the President, +Mrs. Kennedy on the left rear seat, Governor Connally was on the right +jump seat, and Mrs. Connally was on the left jump seat. Mr. Kellerman +was riding on the right front, and I was driving. + +Mr. SPECTER. At what speed did you travel as you proceeded at various +points from Love Field, say, down into the downtown area of Dallas? + +Mr. GREER. Well, we traveled at various speeds, according to the amount +of people, the crowd. If it was--if we came to a large crowd, we would +have to slow down. I would say, to probably 10 to 15 miles an hour. +Then we would pick it up possibly 25 or somewhere around--25 maybe to +30, where there was few people. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the maximum speed at which you drove from the +time you left Love Field until the time you got to downtown Dallas? + +Mr. GREER. I wouldn't have the slightest idea now, after this length of +time. I could not say how much it would be. + +Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us your best estimate on the minimum speed +from the time you left Love Field until the time you arrived at +downtown Dallas? + +Mr. GREER. The minimum speed traveling at all would probably be 10 to +15 miles an hour. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what sort of crowds were along the way? + +Mr. GREER. There was large crowds--at some places there was quite large +crowds. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did anything unusual occur en route from Love Field to the +downtown area of Dallas? + +Mr. GREER. Well, I think--it may have been--we may have stopped one +time where he got out--didn't get out, but he stopped and spoke to some +young people, I believe, en route. I think there may have been a group +of people there. + +Mr. SPECTER. I hand you a photograph which has already been marked +Commission Exhibit No. 347 and ask you if at this time you are able to +identify what that photograph depicts. + +Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. That is the photograph of the route that we +traveled in Dallas. + +Mr. SPECTER. I show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No. 348 +and ask you if you can identify what that picture represents. + +Mr. GREER. With pictures that I have seen since then, I would recognize +that as the Book Depository Building in Dallas--the street in front of +it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you familiar with the name of this street, which has +since been marked by Mr. Kellerman, who identified this exhibit and +marked the name of the street on it? + +Mr. GREER. No, I wasn't at the time, but I know now that it is supposed +to be Main Street. + +Mr. SPECTER. And do you know in what general direction Main Street +proceeds? + +Mr. GREER. I am not too sure. No; I wouldn't really know. I didn't have +enough time. + +Mr. SPECTER. And are you familiar with the street which intersects with +Main---- + +Mr. GREER. Houston Street. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what street did you turn off of from Houston? + +Mr. GREER. Houston to Elm Street. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, as you were proceeding down Main Street, which I will +add is in a generally westerly direction, what is your best estimate of +your speed as you turned the corner right onto Houston Street? + +Mr. GREER. I would estimate the speed was somewhere between 12 to 15 +miles per hour, coming through there. + +Mr. SPECTER. And as you made that right-hand turn onto Houston Street, +what was the composition of the crowds along the way, if any? + +Mr. GREER. On Main Street there were very, very large crowds. They were +almost close up against the automobile. Sometimes the motorcycles on +the sides could not even get through. They were real close to us. And +very large crowds. And when we got around on Houston Street, the crowds +thinned out quite a lot. My recollection here is that there wasn't too +many people on Elm Street--a few scattered people at that point. + +Mr. SPECTER. And your finger indicated there the position near the +Texas School Depository Building? + +Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, you have described motorcycles. How many were present +with the President's automobile, if any? + +Mr. GREER. I could not tell the exact amount of motorcycles that were +escorting us at that time. We usually do have them on the two front +fenders and two rear fenders, and some probably preceding that, and +some along the motorcade behind us. I could not tell you exactly how +many there probably would be. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect that there were some on this occasion, +however? + +Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; there were motorcycles. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, do you know how many cars back your car was in the +motorcade? + +Mr. GREER. No; I don't know how many police cars were ahead of us. I +knew that the lead car was right directly ahead of me, with one of our +agents, or maybe two, and the chief of police in that car. But how many +police cars prior to that, I do not know how many there were at the +time in front of us. + +Mr. SPECTER. How far ahead of you was that police car as you turned off +of Main Street onto Houston? + +Mr. GREER. I usually allow 4 or 5 car lengths, if possible, between the +car and myself, in case that there is any reason to speed up quick. I +like to leave enough room that I can get out of there. I don't like to +get too tight to the lead car when possible--unless the crowds are so +big that I have to get in or they would close in on me--I have to get +in closer. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how far behind you the first car immediately +behind yours was? + +Mr. GREER. The car behind me was only some few feet, because with our +training and all, we stay very, very close to the President's car. +Sometimes we are bumper to bumper. And the car never is much more than +10 to 12 feet away from the President's car, at slow speeds. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you endeavor to maintain a constant speed in the +operation of the President's car so as to avoid contact with this +close gap between the President's car and the President's follow-up +automobile? + +Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. We tried to drive at a very steady speed. We are +used to driving with each other, and we almost can tell each other's +thoughts what we do, because of the training we have had, and we work +so long together. We drive at a steady pace of speed, so that we give +each other enough ample time to stop or move in close. + +Mr. SPECTER. After turning off Main onto Houston, did you have any +opportunity to take a look at the building which you have since +identified as the Texas School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir. I had not any chance to look much at that building +at all. When I made the turn into Elm Street, I was watching the +overpass expressway--the overpass, or what was ahead of me. I always +look at any--where I go underneath anything, I always watch above, so +if there is anyone up there that I can move so that I won't go over the +top of anyone, if they are unidentified to me, unless it is a policeman +or something like that. We try to avoid going under them. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, when you turned off of Houston onto Elm, did you make +a right-hand or a left-hand turn? + +Mr. GREER. I made a right-hand turn off of Main onto Houston. + +Mr. SPECTER. And when you turned from Houston onto Elm, was that a +right-hand or a left-hand turn? + +Mr. GREER. That was a left-hand turn. + +Mr. SPECTER. And as you turned onto Elm Street, how far, to the best of +your ability to estimate, was your automobile from the overpass which +you have just described? + +Mr. GREER. I wouldn't have a distance recollection at all on how far it +was. It wasn't too far. I just could not give you the distance. + +Mr. SPECTER. At that time, did you make a conscious effort to observe +what was present, if anything, on that overpass? + +Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. I was making sure that I could not see anyone that +might be standing there, and I didn't see anything that I was afraid of +on the overpass. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anything at all on the overpass? + +Mr. GREER. Not that I can now remember. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your best recollection of the speed at which you +were traveling as you turned left off of Houston onto Elm? + +Mr. GREER. My best recollection would be between 12 and 15 miles per +hour. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how far were you at that time behind the police car +which was in front of you? + +Mr. GREER. Probably 50 feet maybe--approximately. I will say +approximately 50 feet. + +Mr. SPECTER. As you turned onto Elm, did you have any opportunity to +observe how far behind you the President's follow-up car was? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir. I was not looking in my mirror; I could not say how +far it was behind me at the time. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what was the nature of the crowd as you made the turn +onto Elm Street, if you recall? + +Mr. GREER. To the best of my memory, the crowd had thinned out a great +deal, and there was not too many people in front of that building. + +Mr. SPECTER. How many lanes of travel were there on Elm Street? + +Mr. GREER. It was either three or four lanes wide. I have forgotten. + +Mr. SPECTER. In what portion of the street were you traveling? + +Mr. GREER. I was right in the center of the street. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe for us the contour of the street at +that point--whether it was level, hilly, or what. + +Mr. GREER. It was starting to go down--gradually going down toward this +underpass. It was a down grade. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you tell us just what occurred as you were +proceeding down Elm Street at that time? + +Mr. GREER. Well, when we were going down Elm Street, I heard a noise +that I thought was a backfire of one of the motorcycle policemen. And +I didn't--it did not affect me like anything else. I just thought that +it is what it was. We had had so many motorcycles around us. So I heard +this noise. And I thought that is what it was. And then I heard it +again. And I glanced over my shoulder. And I saw Governor Connally like +he was starting to fall. Then I realized there was something wrong. I +tramped on the accelerator, and at the same time Mr. Kellerman said to +me, "Get out of here fast." And I cannot remember even the other shots +or noises that was. I cannot quite remember any more. I did not see +anything happen behind me any more, because I was occupied with getting +away. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, how many shots, or how many noises have you just +described that you heard? + +Mr. GREER. I know there was three that I heard--three. But I cannot +remember any more than probably three. I know there was three anyway +that I heard. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an independent recollection at this moment of +having heard three shots at that time? + +Mr. GREER. I knew that after I heard the second one, that is when I +looked over my shoulder, and I was conscious that there was something +wrong, because that is when I saw Governor Connally. And when I turned +around again, to the best of my recollection there was another one, +right immediately after. + +Mr. SPECTER. To the best of your ability to recollect and estimate, +how much time elapsed from the first noise which you have described as +being similar to the backfire of a motor vehicle until you heard the +second noise? + +Mr. GREER. It seems a matter of seconds, I really couldn't say. Three +or four seconds. + +Mr. SPECTER. How much time elapsed, to the best of your ability to +estimate and recollect, between the time of the second noise and the +time of the third noise? + +Mr. GREER. The last two seemed to be just simultaneously, one behind +the other, but I don't recollect just how much, how many seconds were +between the two. I couldn't really say. + +Mr. SPECTER. Describe as best you can the types of sound of the second +report, as distinguished from the first noise which you said was +similar to a motorcycle backfire? + +Mr. GREER. The second one didn't sound any different much than the +first one but I kind of got, by turning around, I don't know whether +I got a little concussion of it, maybe when it hit something or not, +I may have gotten a little concussion that made me think there was +something different to it. But so far as the noise is concerned, I +haven't got any memory of any difference in them at all. + +Mr. SPECTER. Describe as best you can the sound of the third noise. + +Mr. GREER. Just, to me it was similar, to the first two. They all +sounded practically the same to me. + +Mr. SPECTER. You testified that at the second noise you glanced over +your shoulder. + +Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Which shoulder did you glance over? + +Mr. GREER. Right shoulder. + +Mr. SPECTER. And describe or indicate how far you turned your head to +the right at that time? + +Mr. GREER. Just so that my eyes over, caught the Governor, I could see, +I couldn't see the President. I just could see the Governor. I made a +quick glance and back again. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was the movement of your head just then approximately the +same? + +Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. As the time? + +Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. You just indicated the turn of your head slightly to the +right. + +Mr. GREER. My eyes slightly more than my head. My eyes went more than +my head around. I had vision real quick of it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Exactly where was Governor Connally when you first caught +him out of the corner of your eye? + +Mr. GREER. He was--he seemed to be falling a little bit toward Mrs. +Connally, to the left. He started to go over a little bit to the left. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how far did you catch his movement during the time you +were able to observe him? + +Mr. GREER. Just a second. He probably hadn't gotten his shoulder, he +hadn't fell down or anything. He probably was in a position such as I +am now. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did he fall to the rear or to the side or how? + +Mr. GREER. In my opinion, he fell toward Mrs. Connally which would be +to his left or to his side. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did he fall then on his left shoulder and arm or in some +other way? + +Mr. GREER. He appeared to me to be falling on his left shoulder when I +glanced. He had only started to move that way whenever he--when I saw +him. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to see anything of President Kennedy as you +glanced to the rear? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't see anything of the President. I didn't +look, I wasn't far enough around to see the President. + +Mr. SPECTER. When you started that glance, are you able to recollect +whether you started to glance before, exactly simultaneously with or +after that second shot? + +Mr. GREER. It was almost simultaneously that he had--something had hit, +you know, when I had seen him. It seemed like in the same second almost +that something had hit, you know, whenever I turned around. I saw him +start to fall. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you step on the accelerator before, simultaneously or +after Mr. Kellerman instructed you to accelerate? + +Mr. GREER. It was about simultaneously. + +Mr. SPECTER. So that it was your reaction to accelerate prior to the +time---- + +Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. You had gotten that instruction? + +Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it was my reaction that caused me to accelerate. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect whether you accelerated before or at the +same time or after the third shot? + +Mr. GREER. I couldn't really say. Just as soon as I turned my head back +from the second shot, right away I accelerated right then. It was a +matter of my reflexes to the accelerator. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was it at about that time that you heard the third shot? + +Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; just as soon as I turned my head. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the speed of the car at the +time of the first, second, or third shots? + +Mr. GREER. I would estimate my speed was between 12 and 15 miles per +hour. + +Mr. SPECTER. At the time all of the shots occurred? + +Mr. GREER. At the time the shots occurred. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now what, if anything, was Mr. Kellerman doing at the time +of the first shot? + +Mr. GREER. I couldn't really speak for where he was watching, what part +of the street or the buildings or what he was watching at that time. I +don't really know. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what Mr. Kellerman was doing at the time of +the second shot? + +Mr. GREER. He was sitting there in the front. No, sir; I don't know +what his action was then. I was watching the overpass, I wasn't looking +his way. + +Mr. SPECTER. When you were watching the overpass at that time, did you +observe anything on the overpass? + +Mr. GREER. Not that I can remember now. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe that there was no one present on the +overpass? + +Mr. GREER. My recollection, there may have been a police officer up +there. It is vague to me now everything that I had seen at that time. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what Mr. Kellerman was doing at the time of +the third shot? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir; I couldn't say what he was doing. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there any radio communication between your automobile +and any of the other automobiles? + +Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who made that radio communication? + +Mr. GREER. Kellerman. + +Mr. SPECTER. Tell us as precisely as you can when he made that radio +communication. + +Mr. GREER. After he had said to me, "Get out of here fast." He got the +radio and called to the lead car, "Get us to a hospital fast, nearest +hospital fast." + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether he said anything else at that time? + +Mr. GREER. After he had said to me, he said, "12:30," and that is all I +remember him saying to me was 12:30, and he had communications with the +cars but I don't remember what he had said to them. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did he say just "12:30," or was it 12:30 used in a +sentence? + +Mr. GREER. He said "12:30." He looked at his watch, he said "12:30," +and we were in the underpass at the time. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, would you on Commission's Exhibit 347, mark +with an "A" as best you can indicate the position of the President's +automobile at the time of the first shot? + +Mr. GREER. Do you want me to mark it on this exhibit? + +Mr. SPECTER. Right there, that is right, that red pencil with an "A," a +small "A." + +Mr. GREER. This is the center, I would say [indicating]. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark your best estimate as to the position of the +automobile at the time of the second shot with the letter "B"? + +Mr. GREER. I would have to guess how far I had traveled at that time. I +really wouldn't know. It was probably a little farther, only guessing +how far I would go. I am guessing as to the distance between them. +Maybe farther but I am only guessing to say at that. I wouldn't have +any definite reason. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you make that "B" a little plainer, if you can? + +Mr. GREER. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Could you give us the best estimate in feet as to the +distance you traveled from the time of the first shot to the time of +the second shot? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir; I don't believe I could. Anything I would say would +be guessing. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you be able to give us a meaningful mark on the +overhead photograph as to the position of your car at the time of the +third shot? + +Mr. GREER. From this overhead. I probably was where this mark is here. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you mark it? + +Mr. GREER. I will put it alongside. + +Mr. SPECTER. Put a little "C." + +Mr. GREER. This was for the third shot. + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. GREER. This is "C." This not having an idea really of how much +footage is in there at all. I wouldn't---- + +The CHAIRMAN. I didn't understand. + +Mr. GREER. I said I wouldn't probably know, Mr. Chief Justice, how many +feet would be in that distance, I would be guessing how many feet. + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes; I understand. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any opportunity to observe the overhead as +you were driving along after the last shot occurred? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir. I was fairly close to it, to the best of my memory, +and I was trying to watch then where I was going. I had to look ahead +to see, I was catching up on the lead car real fast, and I had to watch +what was ahead of me. + +Mr. SPECTER. How fast was it possible to accelerate your automobile at +that time? + +Mr. GREER. Well, it is a very heavy automobile, and it does not pick up +too fast on account of the weight. I have never tested to see how many +feet I could travel in a second. I have never had any reason to test it +to see how much I could travel. But it was in low gear at that time, +and that helps you to accelerate a lot faster. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you characterize it as a very rapid or a rapid +acceleration? + +Mr. GREER. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Or how would you characterize it? + +Mr. GREER. It is a very smooth car taking off anyway, and I would say +it wasn't rapid. It is fairly fast in low gear but not rapid like a +light car will be. + +Mr. SPECTER. Does that car have an automatic transmission? + +Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what are the varieties of forward speeds in the +vehicle? + +Mr. GREER. It has a low gear and then it has drive one and drive two. +It has two top gears. One has, one probably has, free wheeling more +than the other. The other is not a free wheeling gear. + +Mr. SPECTER. How fast can the car be driven in the low gear? + +Mr. GREER. I would say safely you can drive it up to 40 miles an hour +in low gear. That is estimating it at 40. + +Mr. SPECTER. From the time of the first shot until the time of the +third shot, was your car moving in a straight line or in an arc or how +would you describe it? + +Mr. GREER. I was following the contour of the road, the center of the +contour of the road as it goes. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is the path of the contour of the road? + +Mr. GREER. Well, at the time I didn't think much of it but it is a +little, there is a little bend in the road going to the underpass. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear anyone in the car say anything from the time +of the first shot until the time of the third shot? + +Mr. GREER. Not to the best of my recollection, I don't remember. + +(At this point, Representative Boggs entered the hearing room.) + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, did you hear anyone say anything from the time +of the third shot until the time of arrival at Parkland Hospital? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't. I didn't hear, I can't remember hearing +anyone say anything at all. We were quite preoccupied to get to the +hospital as fast as we can, as we could, and that was my mind was +really occupied on what I was doing. I didn't hear anything. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what speed you were traveling at en route to +the hospital? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir; I couldn't say. I was just getting through the +traffic and through the streets as fast as I could get through. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you have any estimate at all on speed? + +Mr. GREER. I would estimate that I must have been doing 40 or 50, at +least 50 miles an hour at times. We might have been going as fast as 50 +miles an hour, I am sure. + +Mr. SPECTER. When you accelerated your automobile, did you at any time +come alongside of or pass the police car in front of you? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir; I never passed it. I came up alongside one or two +motorcycle men and I called to them "get to a hospital fast". You know, +I called to them "hospital". + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you led to the hospital? + +Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I was led to the hospital by the police car who +was preceding me. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any independent knowledge of the route from +where you were? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. From the point of assassination to the hospital? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you escorted by any other automobiles besides the +police car in front of you? + +Mr. GREER. We had motorcycles and I don't know if there were other +police cars out in front of that or not. I am sure there may have been, +but I couldn't say right now. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there any radio communication between your automobile +and the hospital at any time prior to your arrival at the hospital? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir; not between the hospital and our car. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Kellerman have any radio contact at all with +anyone in addition to that which you have already described? + +Mr. GREER. He may have had some more communications to the car, the +lead car, but I can't remember what they were now. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any bullets strike any portion of the car +or ricochet in any way during the course of the shooting? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any bullets or fragments of bullets at +rest in the car after the shooting terminated? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't. I left the car at the hospital and I +didn't see it any more until the next day. + +Mr. SPECTER. I hand you Commission Exhibit No. 349, Mr. Greer, and ask +if you are able to identify what that picture represents? + +Mr. GREER. That represents the windshield of the car. + +Mr. SPECTER. Of the President's car? + +Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it looks like the windshield of the President's +car. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now calling your attention to a small arrow---- + +Mr. GREER. Arrow. + +Mr. SPECTER. Which points up on what appears to be an indentation, I +ask you if you--when was the first time, if at all, that you observed +that indentation? + +Mr. GREER. I didn't observe that---- + +Mr. SPECTER. On the car? + +Mr. GREER. Until after I got back to Washington, until the car came +back to Washington. I saw it at the White House garage. It was the +first time I had ever noticed that. + +Mr. SPECTER. On what date did you observe that indentation on the car? + +Mr. GREER. That was the day after, the 23, would be it. It would be the +day after the shooting. We got back from Dallas. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what time of the day did you observe the car at the +White House garage on that date? + +Mr. GREER. It was in the afternoon, I believe. I believe it was in the +afternoon, I believe. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did anyone call that indentation to your attention at that +time? + +Mr. GREER. Yes; I was asked if I knew about it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who was it who asked you? + +Mr. GREER. I can't remember now who did say that, but I was shown that +indentation at the same time I was the break in the glass. I was shown +both and asked if I had known but I can't remember who might have asked +me. + +Mr. SPECTER. Had you ever observed that indentation before the +assassination occurred? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir. I had never noticed it before at any time. I had +never seen it before. + +Mr. SPECTER. Had you ever had any occasion to examine closely that +metallic area to ascertain whether or not there was such an indentation +prior to the assassination? + +Mr. GREER. Well, it seems to me I would have prior to that had it been +there because I do take care of the car sometimes, and it had never +been--I had never noticed it at any previous time. + +Mr. SPECTER. I hand you Commission Exhibit 350 and ask you if you are +able to state what that depicts? + +Mr. GREER. That depicts a break or a shatter in the windshield of it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Does that picture accurately represent the status of the +windshield on the President's car at sometime? + +Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; that windshield looks real familiar to me on the +way it---- + +Mr. SPECTER. At what time, based on your observation, did the +windshield of the President's car look like that picture? + +Mr. GREER. I had never seen that until the following day after it came +back from Dallas. + +Mr. SPECTER. But on November 23, did the President's car windshield +look like that? + +Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it looked like there was a break that had a +diamond, in the windshield whenever I was shown that at the garage, the +White House garage. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was the size and scope of the crack the same as that which +is shown on that exhibit? + +Mr. GREER. That I wouldn't remember whether it was quite that large +or not. I don't believe it was that big. It might not have been but I +wouldn't say for sure. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any crack on the windshield after the time +of the shooting on November 22? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't see it at all. I didn't know anything +about it until I came back, until the car came back and I was shown +that. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion on November 22, after the +shooting, to observe closely the windshield? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir. The only time I was in the car was going to the +hospital and I never--I didn't see the car any more. It was just from +the shooting until we got to Parkland that I was with the car. I left +the car there and never did see it until it was back at the White House +garage. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to state with certainty there was no crack in +that windshield prior to the shooting on November 22? + +Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I am sure there was nothing wrong with that +windshield prior to that because I would have--it was almost in front +of me and I examined the car. I looked it all over when I got there. I +saw it was clean and everything, the windshield. I didn't see this ever +at any time previous. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, I now call your attention to a windshield +which has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 351, and I will ask +you to take a look at it and identify it for us, if you can, calling +your attention first of all to the windshield itself. Are you able to +state---- + +Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; this is the windshield that came out of the +Lincoln. + +Mr. SPECTER. That you were operating on the day of the assassination? + +Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe what cracks, if any, which you see now on +that windshield were present? + +Mr. GREER. When I looked---- + +Mr. SPECTER. When you observed the automobile windshield on November +23, the next day? + +Mr. GREER. This little star, the star in here with the little star. +These cracks were not there. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now by these cracks you are indicating---- + +Mr. GREER. These. + +Mr. SPECTER. The long cracks which radiate off from the center? + +Mr. GREER. That is right. This was the only cracks that I could see was +this star-type fragment. + +Mr. SPECTER. There you are indicating what would be described as the +principal point of contact which was present when you observed it on +November 23? + +Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Give me your best estimate on the diameter of the cracking +of the windshield as it existed on November 23? + +Mr. GREER. To the best of my estimate it would be these little stars +that are here, the little shatters that are here. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would it be fair to say that you are indicating a circle +with a circumference or diameter of approximately an inch to an inch +and a half? + +Mr. GREER. I don't think--it probably would be an inch. The whole +diameter. + +Mr. SPECTER. Approximately 1 inch as you estimate it? + +Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. + +Representative BOGGS. Excuse me, did you say you did not notice this +crack from the time that you drove the car after the shooting to the +hospital? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir; I had flags on the car and you know they were +waving at a high rate of speed and you have the Presidential flag and +the American flag in front of you there; you know when you are going +at a fast speed you get a lot of, well, I don't know how you would say +it, it attracts you so much that I didn't have any recollection of what +happened on the windshield. + +Representative BOGGS. There was no glass or anything that spattered on +you in any way? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't feel anything at all. I didn't feel a +thing hit me. I was kind of shocked at the time, I guess anything +could have and I wouldn't have known what hit me. You are tense, I was +pretty tense, and naturally my thoughts were the hospital, and how fast +I could get there, and probably I could have been injured and not even +known I was injured. I was in that position. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, what is your best estimate and recollection of +the time that the shooting occurred? + +Mr. GREER. Well, Mr. Kellerman saying 12:30 to me makes me--that stays +in my mind foremost, and that was when we had just left the scene of +the shooting, a few seconds or a second or two from it. That is why +that 12:30 stays in my mind, him saying 12:30 to me right after the +shooting, he said. His watch may not have been correct but that is what +he said to me at the time. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the distance between the +point where the assassination occurred and Parkland Hospital? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir; I haven't. It seemed like endless miles and +probably wasn't very far, but it seemed like to me it was endless +getting there. I was---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to give us an estimate with reasonable +accuracy on the time it took? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. From the time it took from the point of the shooting until +you arrived at Parkland Hospital? + +Mr. GREER. I didn't check anything but I thought that probably it +would probably be 6 or 8 minutes. I am not too sure, somewhere in the +vicinity of 5 and 10 minutes. I would have to guess at that. + +Mr. SPECTER. How did you know which entrance of the hospital to go to? + +Mr. GREER. I followed the car that was in front of me right to where he +stopped and I was right at the entrance. The car stopped and I stopped +alongside of him. + +Mr. SPECTER. Which entrance was that? + +Mr. GREER. It seems, I think it was the emergency entrance, I am almost +sure. It was like a bay that you could pull in and out of. It looked +like an ambulance entrance. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe with respect to President Kennedy's +condition on arrival at the Parkland Hospital? + +Mr. GREER. To the best of my knowledge he was laying, it seemed across +Mrs. Kennedy, looked like laying across her lap or in front of her, I +am not too sure which, I opened the doors--the doors were opened before +I got to it, someone else had opened the doors and they were trying to +get Connally out, and Mrs. Connally out of the seats so they could get +to the President. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe about the President with respect to +his wounds? + +Mr. GREER. His head was all shot, this whole part was all a matter of +blood like he had been hit. + +Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the top and right rear side of the head? + +Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it looked like that was all blown off. + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes. + +Mr. GREER. I run around the front of the car and got hold of a +stretcher or thing and I got hold of it to keep it steady while they +lifted the President's body onto it and then I helped pull the front +end of it into the emergency room. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who was first removed from the automobile? + +Mr. GREER. Governor Connally was first removed. He was on the jump +seats. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what, if anything, did you observe as to Governor +Connally's condition on arrival at Parkland Hospital? + +Mr. GREER. The best of my recollection he was lying across the seat +toward Mrs. Connally when they picked him up and got him out of the +car. And he was rushed in first into the hospital. That is when I +got the stretcher to bring it, to hold it until they would get the +President on it, on the right side of the car. They took him out on the +side he was sitting on, that side of the car. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to make any personal observation about +Governor Connally's specific wound? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir. I didn't know how badly anyone really was injured. +I had great thoughts the President was still living and that was the +only thing I was thinking about was to get them in quick. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe anything specific which led you to the +conclusion that the President was still living? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir. When he was in the emergency room and I was there, +I did see his chest expand and move, the movement of the chest a time +or so. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to observe any wound on the front side of +the President? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't, I never seen any on the front side of the +President. The only thing I saw was on the head. I didn't know at the +time of any other injuries on him. + +Mr. SPECTER. As to the front side of the President's body, were you +able to observe any hole or tear in either his shirt or tie? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't and I brought them back, those things, +and I didn't see them at the time. I probably didn't inspect them very +closely but they were handed to me in a paper bag to bring back. + +Mr. SPECTER. When did you acquire custody and possession of those items +of clothing? + +Mr. GREER. After they had made the President's body ready for removal, +I was in the emergency room, and a nurse got two shopping bags and I +held them and she put the President's suit, his belongings into the +two bags including his shoes and socks, and his pants and jacket which +they had torn and the shirt they had torn, they had torn it to take it +off him, and the nurse put these into the two bags and I got custody of +them right then from the nurse at the emergency room. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other items of wearing apparel such as +shorts or undershirt? + +Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; his shorts and that brace he wore, whatever it +was, and his sox and shoes, and shirt, and his trousers, and his suit +coat. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to state with certainty that there was no +undershirt? + +Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; there was no undershirt. I am sure there was no +undershirt. I would have to say it to the best of my recollection, +there was no undershirt. I had been with him so many times and I knew +he didn't normally wear an undershirt because I had heard him one time +previously, I offered him a coat. + +He said, "I have an undershirt on today," it was at some ballgame. He +normally didn't wear an undershirt. + +Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe with more particularity the brace you +just said he was wearing? + +Mr. GREER. It looked like a, I would say, a corset-type brace, maybe 6 +inches wide, he wore it around his, down low around his, haunches, a +little lower than the waist, probably, just probably below his belt he +wore it there. It was something he normally wore, and I would guess, +but I would say it was of a soft, maybe a kind of corset-type material, +maybe elastic or something like that support. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, when your automobile arrived at Parkland, was +there any medical individual awaiting your arrival? + +Mr. GREER. I can't remember--there were--who brought the stretchers +out. There were some hospital people there, but who they were, I never +got--I couldn't identify or knew who they were. There were some medical +people there; yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where were they when you first saw hospital personnel? + +Mr. GREER. When I pulled into the ambulance entrance there were some +people there on the right-hand side with these stretchers that they had +rushed out. I don't know just who they were from the hospital staff. +There was a great deal of confusion because everyone was trying to +help, the agents were there. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to state whether there was a doctor in +attendance at that time? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir; I couldn't state that. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after your arrival at Parkland Hospital? + +Mr. GREER. I helped pull it, take the stretcher into the emergency room +that he was on. It is on wheels, and I helped to take that in, and I +stayed inside the door of the emergency room most of the time while +they were, the doctors were, working on the President's body. + +Mr. SPECTER. How many doctors were working on him in the emergency room? + +Mr. GREER. There were, between nurses and doctors. I would estimate +there were, between 10 or 12 people, maybe not that many, 8 to 10 +people in and out of that room. I don't know how many of them were +doctors, attendants, nurses, and things like that with white jackets +and they would come in and say, "I am doctor so-and-so." + +Mr. SPECTER. How long were they working on him there in the emergency +room? + +Mr. GREER. I couldn't remember the time. + +Mr. SPECTER. You say you were with him most of the time? + +Mr. GREER. I was inside the door. I know, I kept the door closed most +of the time, let doctors and nurses in and out while he was--while they +were working on him. I stayed inside the emergency room door. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there any special reason for you to leave part of the +time? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't go any farther away than outside the door. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other Secret Service agents inside the +emergency room at that time? + +Mr. GREER. Not at that time; I was inside the door. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where was Mrs. Kennedy at this time? + +Mr. GREER. Mrs. Kennedy was outside the door. They got her a chair out +there for a little while and then she insisted on coming in and she got +in the corner for a little while there and stayed there a little while +and I don't quite remember the time she went over to his body but she +did go over there, and I don't remember how far along the doctors had +been on him when that happened. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to overhear any of the conversations among +the doctors in the emergency room? + +Mr. GREER. I don't understand anything that they were discussing at all. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did a priest or more than one priest come upon the scene? + +Mr. GREER. I believe there were two. To the best of my recollection +there eventually was two. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long after President Kennedy arrived at the emergency +room did the priest arrive, if you recollect? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir; I wouldn't have any idea, it seemed to me it was +quite a little while in the matter, probably minutes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long did the priests stay? + +Mr. GREER. I don't remember that, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did they say anything on leaving or in entering? + +Mr. GREER. Not that I heard of personally. I was outside the room when +the priest was in there. I wasn't in the emergency room while he was in. + +Mr. SPECTER. When did you find that the President had died? + +Mr. GREER. When the priest was in to give him the last rites then I +knew that. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any reasonably close estimate on when the +President did die? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir; I haven't right off. I would have to look at some +reports. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after the President was pronounced dead? + +Mr. GREER. We stayed there until everything was settled up. I believe +there was a judge came in there and I think, someone came in and made +the decisions on removing the body and the casket was brought in, and +the body was put in the casket. I had this, his clothing, I kept it in +my hand at all times, all the time. Then I went, when they removed the +casket from the emergency room, I was in front of it going out to make +a path to get it to the ambulance. + +So, I helped get it into the ambulance and then I drove a car with some +agents and some people right behind the ambulance to Love Field back to +the airport again and helped to get the casket aboard the airplane. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you present at the swearing in of President Johnson? + +Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I was--we were all asked to come back into the +state room but I wasn't in too close. I was in the main part of the +plane, as close as I could get to it, yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. How did you personally return to Washington, D.C.? + +Mr. GREER. I returned on Air Force 1 with the President's remains. + +Mr. SPECTER. And at approximately what time did you leave Dallas to fly +back? + +Mr. GREER. I would have to look in my reports to say exactly. I would +have to go back on the times. Two something but I don't remember. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any idea of the time you arrived in the +Washington area? + +Mr. GREER. I believe it was 6 or 6:15. As I say I have it in my reports +but I haven't looked at the times recently. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where did you arrive in the Washington area? + +Mr. GREER. At Andrews Air Force Base. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next in connection with this matter? + +Mr. GREER. I helped to get the casket out of the plane, and put it into +a Navy ambulance and then I drove that Navy ambulance to Bethesda Naval +Center. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you do upon arriving at the Bethesda Naval Center? + +Mr. GREER. I stayed in, while the autopsy was being performed, I stayed +in the autopsy room with Mr. Kellerman and the doctors and the people +who were in there. I stayed in there and observed what was necessary +that I could do. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were any Secret Service Agents present besides you and Mr. +Kellerman? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. At the autopsy? + +Mr. GREER. There may have been, Mr. Hill may have come in and out but +he didn't stay there. Mr. Kellerman and I stayed permanently the whole +time there. There may have been, Mr. Hill may have come in there and +have gone back out but he didn't stay in there. + +Mr. SPECTER. During the course of the autopsy did you hear any doctor +say anything about the wound on the right side of Mr. Kennedy's back? + +Mr. GREER. That was the first time that I had ever seen it, when the +doctors were performing the autopsy, they saw this hole in the right +shoulder or back of the head, and in the back, and that was the first +I had known that he was ever shot there, and they brought it to our +attention or discussed it there a little bit. + +Mr. SPECTER. What conversation was there concerning the wound on the +right back? + +Mr. GREER. Well, the doctors and people who were performing the +autopsy, when they turned the body apparently over they discovered that +this wound was in the back, and they thought that they probably could +get a bullet out of there, and it took a lot of--then they took more +X-rays, they took a lot of X-rays, we looked at them and couldn't find +the trace of any bullet anywhere in the X-rays at all, nothing showed +on the X-rays where this bullet or lead could have gone. + +Mr. SPECTER. Approximately where in the President's back was the bullet +hole? + +Mr. GREER. It was, to the best of my recollection it was, back here, +just in the soft part of that shoulder. + +Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the upper right shoulder area? + +Mr. GREER. Upper right, yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there any effort made to probe that wound by any +doctor? + +Mr. GREER. I believe, yes, I believe the doctors probed to see if they +could find that there was a bullet there. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know which doctor that was? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir; I don't, I don't have their names at this time. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did any doctor make any statement about the results of his +probing effort? + +Mr. GREER. I questioned one of the doctors in there about that, and +when we found out that they had found a bullet in Dallas, I questioned +the doctor about it and he said if they were using pressure on the +chest that it could very well have been, come back out, where it went +in at, that is what they said at the time. + +(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Was anything said about any channel being present in the +body for the bullet to have gone on through the back? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir; I hadn't heard anything like that, any trace of it +going on through. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you just mention, Mr. Greer, a hole in the President's +head in addition to the large area of the skull which was shot away? + +Mr. GREER. No. I had just seen that, you know, the head was damaged in +all this part of it but I believe looking at the X-rays, I looked at +the X-rays when they were taken in the autopsy room, and the person who +does that type work showed us the trace of it because there would be +little specks of lead where the bullet had come from here and it came +to the--they showed where it didn't come on through. It came to a sinus +cavity or something they said, over the eye. + +Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the right eye. + +Mr. GREER. I may be wrong. + +Mr. SPECTER. You don't know which eye? + +Mr. GREER. I don't know which eye, I may be wrong. But they showed us +the trace of it coming through but there were very little small specks +on the X-rays that these professionals knew what course that the bullet +had taken, the lead. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe in very general terms what injury you +observed as to the President's head during the course of the autopsy? + +Mr. GREER. I would--to the best of my recollection it was in this part +of the head right here. + +Mr. SPECTER. Upper right? + +Mr. GREER. Upper right side. + +Mr. SPECTER. Upper right side, going toward the rear. + +And what was the condition of the skull at that point? + +Mr. GREER. The skull was completely--this part was completely gone. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, aside from that opening which you have described and +you have indicated a circle with a diameter of approximately 5 inches, +would you say that is about what you have indicated there? + +Mr. GREER. Approximately I would say 5 inches; yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other opening or hole of any sort in +the head itself? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't. No other one. + +Mr. SPECTER. Specifically did you observe a hole which would be below +the large area of skull which was absent? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to look in the back of the head +immediately below where the skull was missing? + +Mr. GREER. No; I can't remember even examining the head that close at +that time. + +Mr. SPECTER. When President Kennedy was being treated in the emergency +room at Parkland Hospital, were any pictures or X-rays taken of him +there? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir; not that I know of. I didn't see any being taken. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was he ever turned over that you observed while being +treated at Parkland Hospital? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir. I can't recollect him ever being turned over. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any recollection that he was in fact not +turned over? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir; I couldn't even say. I didn't see them turn him +over in any way in my vision, although my back was to him quite often +and because I was attending to the door and they could have done it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was he on a stretcher at the time he was being worked on +at Parkland Hospital? + +Mr. GREER. I can't remember whether they changed him from a stretcher +to a table. I am not sure on that. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, as to the return of the President's automobile +to Washington, do you know how that was accomplished? + +Mr. GREER. It was driven to Love Field, and put aboard the same C-130 +it was taken out on and flown back to Andrews Air Force Base. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know when it was returned from Dallas to the +Washington area? + +Mr. GREER. I believe it was returned shortly after, it left shortly +after, the President's plane left, was flown back. + +Mr. SPECTER. I hand you two photographs marked Commission Exhibit No. +352 and Commission Exhibit No. 353. + +Do those photographs represent the condition of the back seat of the +President's car at some time? + +Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; they do. + +Mr. SPECTER. And at what time do those pictures look just as the back +seat of the President's car looked? + +Mr. GREER. It looked like that when it came back from Dallas. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did it look like that immediately after President Kennedy +was removed from the back seat? + +Mr. GREER. I wasn't there any more, sir. I was with the President after +they lifted him out. I didn't see the car after he had been removed. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe the back seat of the car at any time +from the time you arrived at Parkland Hospital until you observed the +automobile in Washington? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. On November 23? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. SPECTER. By the way, Mr. Greer, how much, approximately, does or +did the President's automobile weigh? + +Mr. GREER. It weighed between--well, for flight reason we said 8,000, +but it wasn't that much. It probably was 7,500. We had extra weight on +it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to tell the Commission the dimensions of the +automobile, indicating its length? + +Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. It is 21 feet 8 inches long. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how wide? + +Mr. GREER. I would have to go back for the width on it. I have it all +in black and white in the office, but I haven't got it with me in my +head right now; I am sorry. + +Mr. SPECTER. Could three people sit comfortably in the front seat of +the automobile? + +Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it was wide enough for three. We many times had an +aide in there; many times, an aide rode in the front. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was it as wide or wider than, say, a Cadillac automobile? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir; it would be probably the same width. + +Representative BOGGS. Was that car specially made for the President? + +Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it was a specially built car. + +Representative BOGGS. Was it a Lincoln Continental? + +Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; a Lincoln Continental. + +Representative BOGGS. How did it differ from the ordinary Lincoln? + +Mr. GREER. Well, Lincoln doesn't make a seven-passenger car, and this +was a seven-passenger car. The back seat on this car would raise 8 +inches. It was electric, and you could lift, you could raise, the seat +up 8 inches from the ground, from the floorboards. It had a little step +that went with it. The President could raise it up and down himself. He +had a button alongside that would cause it to go up and down when the +top wasn't down. It wouldn't go up and down when the top was down. But +when it was off he could raise it up or down, and it would be above the +other seat. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether the seat was actually raised at the +time of the assassination? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir; I couldn't say right off. I don't believe it was, +but I wouldn't know. + +Mr. SPECTER. Going back to the shots themselves, Mr. Greer, do you have +any reaction as to the direction from which the shots came? + +Mr. GREER. They sounded like they were behind me, to the right rear of +me. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would that be as to all three shots? + +Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. They sounded, everything sounded, behind me, to +me. That was my thought, train of thought, that they were behind me. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had any reaction or thought at any time +since the assassination that the shots came from the front of the car? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir; I had never even the least thought that they could +come. There was no thought in my mind other than that they were behind +me. + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Boggs, are there any questions you would like +to ask the agent? + +Representative BOGGS. I don't think so, Mr. Chairman. + +The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford. + +Representative FORD. Did you ever have any thought there were more than +three shots? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir; I never did. + +Representative FORD. Did you positively identify the fact that there +were one, two, three, or was there one, and then a delay, and then a +flurry? + +Mr. GREER. To the best of my recollection, Congressman, was that the +last two were closer together than the first one. It seemed like the +first one, and then there was, you know, bang, bang, just right behind +it almost. The two seemed, the last two seemed, closer to me than the +other. + +Representative BOGGS. Did you speed up after you heard the first shot? + +Mr. GREER. After I heard the second. The first one didn't sink into me, +didn't give me the thought that it was a shot. I thought it was the +backfire of a motorcycle. But when I heard the second one and glanced +over my shoulder, I knew something was wrong then. I didn't know how +bad anyone was injured or anything, but I knew there was something +wrong, and right away after the second one I accelerated as fast as I +could. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Craig, would you like to ask any questions? + +Mr. CRAIG. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice. + +With respect to the position of the President's car that you were +driving as it approached the underpass, you state now that you couldn't +fix any specific distance. But would you say it was less than a mile +that the President's car was from the overpass? + +Mr. GREER. Oh, definitely. I couldn't say in feet or yards, but it was +within--it was feet. I would say probably a hundred or 200 feet. It +could be within that; it was definitely right up close to me, but I---- + +Mr. CRAIG. With respect to your vision, was it unobstructed down the +roadway, looking at the overpass? + +Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; there were no obstructions in the road that I +could see. + +Mr. CRAIG. As I recall your testimony, you were actually observing the +overpass to see if there was any person there. + +Mr. GREER. People up there at that time I would be doubtful of going +underneath. + +Mr. CRAIG. Yes, sir. And you say now you do not recollect that you saw +anyone there? + +Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. CRAIG. You said also, I believe, that it was some time now since +you made that observation. Did you make any report of any kind with +respect to anyone being on the overpass immediately after this incident? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir. + +Mr. CRAIG. You made no written report to anybody as to whether or not +there were people on the overpass or were not people? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir; I haven't. + +Mr. CRAIG. Do you believe if you had observed people on the overpass at +that time you would now remember it? + +Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I believe I would; yes, sir. + +Mr. CRAIG. If you had observed people on the overpass as you proceeded +toward it, and they were other than a policeman or policemen or some +other law-enforcement agent, what would you have done? + +Mr. GREER. Well, I try never to go underneath a bridge if there +are people up over it, if there are people who I don't know as law +enforcement. I try not to go underneath them. I will probably veer to +one side of them at any time. That is a matter of our training, that +we try not to go underneath anyone with an open car where anyone could +drop something. + +Mr. CRAIG. Would you ever stop, if necessary, if you thought there were +people up there that you couldn't veer around? + +Mr. GREER. If there was any danger there I would have to either change +my way of traveling. I have never had it happen, and never had any +reason to, but we try, I try, not to go underneath a group of people +standing on any overpass at any time. I try to move over, if the +condition permits me to. Sometimes, when the road is too narrow, I +couldn't. But that is part of our procedure, I think, to see that no +one is on an overpass. + +Mr. CRAIG. That is all. + +The CHAIRMAN. If there are no further questions---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, may I ask one or two other questions? + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. I have just noted that we have the report of the FBI which +bears Bureau file No. 105-S, as it appears here somewhat indistinct, +S-2555, "Report of Special Agent Robert P. Gemberling, dated December +10, 1963," and this refers, Mr. Greer, to an interview of you by +Special Agents Francis X. O'Neill, Jr., and James W. Sibert. There is +a report here of an interview of you and of Special Agent Kellerman, +and the date here is listed as November 22, 1963, and there is this +reference made in the report, and I will quote it verbatim: + +"Greer stated that he first heard what he thought was possibly a +motorcycle backfire, and glanced around and noticed that the President +had evidently been hit. He thereafter got on the radio and communicated +with the other vehicles stating that they desired to get the President +to the hospital immediately." + +Mr. GREER. I didn't go on the radio. It was Mr. Kellerman who done the +radio talking. I didn't. It is a misquote if I done it. I didn't get on +the radio. Mr. Kellerman did. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever make this statement, Mr. Greer, to Special +Agent O'Neill or Sibert? + +Mr. GREER. Those two agents were in during the autopsy; those two +agents were in the autopsy room, with Mr. Kellerman and I, all night. +Mr. Sibert and O'Neill were both in the autopsy room with us during +that time, and the only time that any of us, either Mr. Kellerman or I, +we never left the room, one or the other. We went and got some coffee +and came right back, something like that, and the FBI did the same +thing. One of them left; the other stayed. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you now recollect whether or not you ever said to them +that you were the one who communicated on the radio with the other +vehicles? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir; I know I never remember saying that to them because +I know I didn't do it. So that is how I know that I didn't say it, +because I know I didn't do it. Mr. Kellerman did. + +Mr. SPECTER. And the first part refers to your noticing that the +President evidently had been hit. Did you ever---- + +Mr. GREER. I have no recollection of ever telling the agents that I +said that; no, sir. If I said it, I don't remember saying it. The +Governor was the person that I knew was--when we were first in trouble, +when I see the Governor. + +Mr. SPECTER. To the best of your current recollection, did you notice +that the President had been hit? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't know how badly he was injured or anything +other than that. I didn't know. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you know at all, from the glance which you have +described that he had been hit or injured in any way? + +Mr. GREER. I knew he was injured in some way, but I didn't know how bad +or what. + +Mr. SPECTER. How did you know that? + +Mr. GREER. If I remember now, I just don't remember how I knew, but +I knew we were in trouble. I knew that he was injured, but I can't +remember, recollect, just how I knew there were injuries in there. I +didn't know who all was hurt, even. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to recollect whether you saw the President +after the shots as you were proceeding toward Parkland Hospital? + +Mr. GREER. No; I don't remember ever seeing him any more until I got to +the hospital, and he was lying across the seat, you know, and that is +the first I had seen of him. + +Mr. SPECTER. Your best recollection is, then, that you had the +impression he was injured but you couldn't ascertain the source of that +information? + +Mr. GREER. Right. I couldn't ascertain the source. + +Representative FORD. Did you hear the President say anything after the +first shot? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir; I never heard him say anything; never at any time +did I ever hear him say anything. + +Representative BOGGS. Did Mrs. Kennedy say anything to you while you +were driving to the hospital? + +Mr. GREER. No, sir; she didn't. + +Representative BOGGS. Did Mrs. Connally say anything to you? + +Mr. GREER. No. Mrs. Connally didn't say anything, either. There is +quite a little distance between the front and the back seat of that +car. As you know, it is 21 feet long, and you are quite a little bit +away, and there was the sirens were all going. The following car had a +siren wide--the big one on the fender was wide open. There wasn't much +chance for me to hear anything, and I was really occupied with getting +there just as fast as I could and not seeing that anything happened, +avoid an accident or anything like that. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a siren on your car? + +Mr. GREER. I didn't have mine going. There is a siren on that car, but +I didn't even reach down to work it. + +Representative BOGGS. There was another agent in the car with you? + +Mr. GREER. Mr. Kellerman; yes, sir. + +Representative BOGGS. And after the first shot, did he say to speed up +or what? + +Mr. GREER. I believe it was at the second that he and I both +simultaneously--he said, "Get out of here fast," and I speeded up as +fast as I could then and as fast as the car would go. + +The CHAIRMAN. If there are no further questions, thank you very much, +Mr. Greer. + +Mr. GREER. Thank you, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. You may be excused. + +Mr. GREER. Thank you, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. We will take a short recess. + +(Short recess.) + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hill, come right in, sir. Would you raise your right +hand, please, and be sworn? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony +you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and +nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. HILL. I do. + +The CHAIRMAN. Would you be seated, please, Mr. Hill? + +Mr. HILL. Thank you, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Specter. + + +TESTIMONY OF CLINTON J. HILL, SPECIAL AGENT, SECRET SERVICE + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Hill, would you state your full name for the record, +please? + +Mr. HILL. Clinton J. Hill. + +Mr. SPECTER. How old are you, sir? + +Mr. HILL. Thirty-two. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your educational background? + +Mr. HILL. I went to secondary educational high school in Washburn, N. +Dak., and then went on to Concordia College, Moorehead, Minn. I was a +history and education major, with a minor in physical education. + +Mr. SPECTER. What year were you graduated? + +Mr. HILL. 1954. + +Mr. SPECTER. What have you done since the time of graduation from +college, Mr. Hill? + +Mr. HILL. I went into the Army in 1954; remained in the Army until +1957. Then I couldn't determine what I wanted to do, whether to go +to law school or not, and I took a couple of odd jobs. I worked for +a finance company at one time. Then I went to work for the Chicago, +Burlington & Quincy Railroad as a special agent in the spring of 1958, +and entered the Secret Service in September 1958. + +Mr. SPECTER. You have been with the Secret Service since September 1958 +to the present time? + +Mr. HILL. Yes; I have. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline for the Commission your duties with the +Secret Service during your tenure there? + +Mr. HILL. I entered the Secret Service in Denver, and during that +period I did both investigative and protection work. I was assigned to +Mrs. Doud, the mother-in-law of President Eisenhower. I attended the +Treasury Law Enforcement School during my first year, and was sent to +the White House for a 30-day temporary assignment at the White House in +June 1959. In November of 1959, November 1, I was transferred to the +White House on a permanent basis as a special agent assigned to the +White House detail. I have been at the White House since that time. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you assigned to duties on the trip of President +Kennedy to Texas in November 1963? + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I was. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any special duty assigned to you at that time? + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. In connection with the trip? + +Mr. HILL. I was responsible for the protection of Mrs. Kennedy. + +Mr. SPECTER. And, in a general way, what does that sort of an +assignment involve? + +Mr. HILL. I tried to remain as close to her at all times as possible, +and in this particular trip that meant being with the President because +all of their doings on this trip were together rather than separate. I +would go over her schedule to make sure she knows what she is expected +to do; discuss it with her; remain in her general area all the time; +protect her from any danger. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us, in a general way, what were the +activities of the President and Mrs. Kennedy on the morning of Friday, +November 22, before they arrived in Dallas? + +Mr. HILL. I went to the fifth floor, I believe it was, where the +President and Mrs. Kennedy were staying in the Texas Hotel in Fort +Worth at 8:15 in the morning. President Kennedy was to go downstairs +and across the street to make a speech to a gathering in a parking lot. +I remained on the floor during the period the President was gone. + +It was raining outside, I recall. About 9:25 I received word from +Special Agent Duncan that the President requested Mrs. Kennedy to come +to the mezzanine, where a breakfast was being held in his honor, and +where he was about to speak. I went in and advised Mrs. Kennedy of +this, and took her down to where the President was speaking; remained +with her adjacent to the head table in this particular area during the +speech; and accompanied she and the President back up to the, I believe +it was, the fifth floor of the hotel, their residential area; remained +on that floor until we left, went downstairs, got into the motorcade, +and departed the hotel for the airport to leave Fort Worth for Dallas. + +We were airborne approximately 11:20, I believe, in Air Force 1. I was +in the aft compartment, which is part of the residential compartment, +and we arrived in Dallas at 11:40. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe, in a general way, what the President +and Mrs. Kennedy did upon arrival in Dallas? + +Mr. HILL. They debarked the rear ramp of the aircraft first, followed +by Governor and Mrs. Connally, various Congressmen and Senators. And +Special Agent in Charge Kellerman and myself went down the ramp. There +was a small reception committee at the foot of the ramp, and somebody +gave Mrs. Kennedy some red roses, I recall. I walked immediately to +the followup car and placed my topcoat, which is a raincoat, and small +envelope containing some information concerning the Dallas stop in the +followup car, returning to where the President and Mrs. Kennedy were at +that time greeting a crippled lady in a wheelchair. + +Mr. SPECTER. What do you estimate the size of the crowd to have been at +Dallas that morning? + +Mr. HILL. At the airport? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HILL. It is rather difficult to say. They were behind a chain-link +fence, not on the airport ramp itself, and they were jammed up against +the fence holding placards, and many young people in the crowd. I +would say there were probably 2,000 people there. + +Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did the motorcade depart from +Love Field to Dallas? + +Mr. HILL. Approximately 11:55. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know approximately how many automobiles there were +in the motorcade? + +Mr. HILL. No, sir; I do not. + +Mr. SPECTER. In which car in the motorcade were you positioned? + +Mr. HILL. I was working the followup car, which is the car immediately +behind the Presidential car. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how many cars are there ahead of the followup car, +then, in the entire motorcade? + +Mr. HILL. There was a lead car ahead of the President's car, the +President's car, then this particular followup car. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether there was any car in advance of the +car termed the lead car? + +Mr. HILL. There could have been a pilot car, but I am not sure. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, approximately how far in front of the President's car +did the lead car stay during the course of the motorcade? + +Mr. HILL. I would say a half block, maybe. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how far was the President's car in front of the +President's followup car during the course of the motorcade? + +Mr. HILL. Approximately 5 feet. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is there some well-established practice as to the spacing +between the President's car and the President's followup car? + +Mr. HILL. It would depend upon speed. We attempt to stay as close to +the President's car as practical. At high rates of speed it is rather +difficult to stay close because of the danger involved. Slow speeds, +the followup car stays as close as possible so that the agents on the +followup car can get to the Presidential car as quickly as possible. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the first car to the rear of the President's +followup car? + +Mr. HILL. The Vice-Presidential automobile. + +Mr. SPECTER. What car was immediately behind the Vice President's +automobile? + +Mr. HILL. The Vice-Presidential followup car. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what cars in the Dallas motorcade followed the +Vice President's followup car? + +Mr. HILL. Well, I couldn't say which car any individual rode in after +that particular automobile, but I could say they were occupied by +members of the staff, both President Kennedy's and Vice President +Johnson's; Congressmen and Senators who were on this particular trip; +newspaper personnel who were on this trip. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you identify the occupants of the President's +followup car and indicate where each was in the automobile. + +Mr. HILL. The car itself was driven by Special Agent Sam Kinney, and +Assistant to the Special Agent in Charge Emory Roberts was riding in +the right front seat. I was assigned to work the left running board of +the automobile, the forward portion of that running board. McIntyre was +assigned to work the rear portion of the left running board. Special +Agent John Ready was assigned the forward portion of the right running +board; Special Agent Paul Landis was assigned the rear portion of the +right running board. There were two jump seats, and they were occupied +by two Presidential aides, Mr. O'Donnell and Mr. Powers. Mr. Powers +was sitting on the right-hand side; Mr. O'Donnell on the left. The +rear seat was occupied, left rear by Special Agent Hickey, right rear, +Special Agent Bennett. + +Mr. SPECTER. How were the agents armed at that time? + +Mr. HILL. All the agents were armed with their hand weapons. + +Mr. SPECTER. And is there any weapon in the automobile in addition to +the hand weapons? + +Mr. HILL. Yes. There is an AR-15, which is an automatic rifle, and a +shotgun. + +Mr. SPECTER. And where is the AR-15 kept? + +Mr. HILL. Between the two agents in the rear seat. + +Mr. SPECTER. How about the shotgun; where is that kept? + +Mr. HILL. In a compartment immediately in front of the jump seats. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is the President's followup car a specially constructed +automobile? + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; it is. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is the make and model and general description of +that vehicle? + +Mr. HILL. It is a 1955 Cadillac, nine-passenger touring sedan. It is a +convertible type. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was that automobile flown in specially from Washington for +the occasion? + +Mr. HILL. Yes; it was, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how that automobile was transported to Dallas, +Tex.? + +Mr. HILL. Generally, it is flown in a C-130 by the Air Force. I am not +sure how on this particular occasion. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe, in a general way, the composition of +the crowds en route from Love Field down to the center of Dallas, +please? + +Mr. HILL. Well, when we left Love Field, we went away from the crowd +to get to the exit point at Love Field, and there were no crowds at +all, and then we, departing Love Field, found the crowds were sporadic. +There were people here and there. Some places they had built up and +other places they were thinned out. The speed of the motorcade was +adjusted accordingly. Whenever there were large groups of people, +the motorcade slowed down to give the people an opportunity to view +the President. When there were not many people along the side of the +street, we speeded up. We didn't really hit the crowds until we hit +Main Street. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the maximum speed of the +automobile from the time you left Love Field until the time you arrived +at downtown Dallas? + +Mr. HILL. I would say we never ran any faster than 25 to 30 miles per +hour. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the minimum speed during +this same interval? + +Mr. HILL. Twelve to fifteen miles per hour. We did stop. + +Mr. SPECTER. On what occasion did you stop? + +Mr. HILL. Between Love Field and Main Street, downtown Dallas, on the +right-hand side of the street there were a group of people with a long +banner which said, "Please, Mr. President, stop and shake our hands." +And the President requested the motorcade to stop, and he beckoned to +the people and asked them to come and shake his hand, which they did. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did the President disembark from his automobile at that +time? + +Mr. HILL. No; he remained in his seat. + +Mr. SPECTER. At that time what action, if any, did you take? + +Mr. HILL. I jumped from the followup car and ran up to the left rear +portion of the automobile with my back toward Mrs. Kennedy viewing +those persons on the left-hand side of the street. + +Mr. SPECTER. What action was taken by any other Secret Service agent +which you observed at that time? + +Mr. HILL. Special Agent Ready, who was working the forward portion of +the right running board, did the same thing, only on the President's +side, placed his back toward the car, and viewed the people facing +the President. Assistant in Charge Kellerman opened the door of the +President's car and stepped out on the street. + +Mr. SPECTER. What action was taken by Special Agent McIntyre, if you +know? + +Mr. HILL. I do not know. + +Mr. SPECTER. How about Special Agent Landis? + +Mr. HILL. I do not know. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your normal procedure for action in the event the +President's car is stopped, as it did in that event? + +Mr. HILL. Special Agent McIntyre would normally jump off the car and +run to the forward portion of the left-hand side of the car; Special +Agent Landis would move to the right-hand forward portion of the +automobile. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did anything else which was unusual occur en route from +Love Field to the downtown area of Dallas? + +Mr. HILL. Before we hit Main Street? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. HILL. Not that I recall. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to leave the President's +followup car at any time? + +Mr. HILL. When we finally did reach Main Street, the crowds had +built up to a point where they were surging into the street. We had +motorcycles running adjacent to both the Presidential automobile and +the followup car, as well as in front of the Presidential automobile, +and because of the crowds in the street, the President's driver, +Special Agent Greer, was running the car more to the left-hand side of +the street more than he was to the right to keep the President as far +away from the crowd as possible, and because of this the motorcycles on +the left-hand side could not get past the crowd and alongside the car, +and they were forced to drop back. I jumped from the followup car, ran +up and got on top of the rear portion of the Presidential automobile to +be close to Mrs. Kennedy in the event that someone attempted to grab +her from the crowd or throw something in the car. + +Mr. SPECTER. When you say the rear portion of the automobile, can you, +by referring to Commission Exhibit No. 345, heretofore identified as +the President's automobile, specify by penciled "X" where you stood? + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir [indicating]. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe for the record just what area it is back +there on which you stood? + +Mr. HILL. That is a step built into the rear bumper of the automobile, +and on top of the rear trunk there is a handguard which you grab for +and hang onto when you are standing up. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are identical objects of those descriptions existing on +each side of the President's car? + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; they do. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any other occasion en route from Love Field +to downtown Dallas to leave the followup car and mount that portion of +the President's car? + +Mr. HILL. I did the same thing approximately four times. + +Mr. SPECTER. What are the standard regulations and practices, if any, +governing such an action on your part? + +Mr. HILL. It is left to the agent's discretion more or less to move to +that particular position when he feels that there is a danger to the +President; to place himself as close to the President or the First Lady +as my case was, as possible, which I did. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are those practices specified in any written documents of +the Secret Service? + +Mr. HILL. No; they are not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, had there been any instruction or comment about +your performance of that type of a duty with respect to anything that +President Kennedy himself had said in the period immediately preceding +the trip to Texas? + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; there was. The preceding Monday, the President was +on a trip in Tampa, Fla., and he requested that the agents not ride on +either of those two steps. + +Mr. SPECTER. And to whom did the President make that request? + +Mr. HILL. Assistant Special Agent in Charge Boring. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was Assistant Special Agent in Charge Boring the +individual in charge of that trip to Florida? + +Mr. HILL. He was riding in the Presidential automobile on that trip in +Florida, and I presume that he was. I was not along. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, on that occasion would he have been in a position +comparable to that occupied by Special Agent Kellerman on this trip to +Texas? + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; the same position. + +Mr. SPECTER. And Special Agent Boring informed you of that instruction +by President Kennedy? + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; he did. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did he make it a point to inform other special agents of +that same instruction? + +Mr. HILL. I believe that he did, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And, as a result of what President Kennedy said to him, +did he instruct you to observe that Presidential admonition? + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. How, if at all, did that instruction of President Kennedy +affect your action and--your action in safeguarding him on this trip to +Dallas? + +Mr. HILL. We did not ride on the rear portions of the automobile. I did +on those four occasions because the motorcycles had to drop back and +there was no protection on the left-hand side of the car. + +Mr. SPECTER. When the President's automobile was proceeding in downtown +Dallas, what was the ordinary speed of the automobile, based on your +best estimate? + +Mr. HILL. We were running approximately 12 to 15 miles per hour, I +would say. + +Mr. SPECTER. I show you a document which we have marked as Commission +Exhibit No. 354, which is an aerial photograph identical with the +photograph already marked as Commission Exhibit No. 347. + +(The photograph referred to was marked Exhibit No. 354 for +identification.) + +Mr. SPECTER. I ask you if, referring only to Exhibit 354, you are able +to identify what that scene is. + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I am. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to indicate the route which the President's +motorcade followed through that area? + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I am. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what does that scene depict--what city is it? + +Mr. HILL. That is Dallas, Tex. It shows Main Street, Houston Street, +and Elm Street. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you write on the picture itself where Main Street is? +Would you now write, as best you can, which street is Houston Street? + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And would you now write which street is Elm? + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. + +(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you indicate, if you know, which is a generally +northerly direction on that picture? + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. What was the condition of the crowd as the +motorcade made a right-hand turn off of Main Street onto Houston? + +Mr. HILL. The crowd was very large on Main Street, and it was thinning +down considerably when we reached the end of it, and turned right +on Houston Street. Noticeably on my side of the car, which was the +left-hand side of the street. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is your best estimate as to the speed of the +President's car at the time it made the right-hand turn onto Houston +Street? + +Mr. HILL. In the curve? + +Mr. SPECTER. The speed--in the curve itself; yes. + +Mr. HILL. We were running generally 12 to 15 miles per hour. I would +say that in the curve we perhaps slowed to maybe 10 miles per hour. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how far behind the President's car was the +Presidential followup car as the turn was made onto Houston Street? + +Mr. HILL. Four to five feet, at the most. + +Mr. SPECTER. I show you a photograph of a building which has already +been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 348, and ask you if at this time +you can identify what that building is. + +Mr. HILL. I believe I can, sir; yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what building is it? + +Mr. HILL. It is the Texas School Book Depository. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, does that building appear on the Commission Exhibit +No. 354? + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; it does. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to notice the Texas School Book +Depository Building as you proceeded in a generally northerly direction +on Houston Street? + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. It was immediately in front of us and to our left. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice anything unusual about it? + +Mr. HILL. Nothing more unusual than any other building along the way. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your general practice, if any, in observing such +buildings along the route of a Presidential motorcade? + +Mr. HILL. We scan the buildings and look specifically for open windows, +for people hanging out, and there had been, on almost every building +along the way, people hanging out, windows open. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you observe, as you recollect at this moment, any +open windows in the Texas School Depository Building? + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; there were. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to recollect specifically which windows were +open at this time? + +Mr. HILL. No, sir; I cannot. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the condition of the crowd along the streets, if +any, along Elm Street, in front of the Texas School Book Depository +Building? + +Mr. HILL. On the left-hand side of the street, which is the side I was +on, the crowd was very thin. And it was a general park area. There were +people scattered throughout the entire park. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, what is your best estimate of the speed of the +President's automobile as it turned left off of Houston onto Elm Street? + +Mr. HILL. We were running still 12 to 15 miles per hour, but in the +curve I believe we slowed down maybe to 10, maybe to 9. + +Mr. SPECTER. How far back of the President's automobile was the +Presidential followup car when the President's followup car had just +straightened out on Elm Street? + +Mr. HILL. Approximately 5 feet. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, as the motorcade proceeded at that point, tell us +what happened. + +Mr. HILL. Well, as we came out of the curve, and began to straighten +up, I was viewing the area which looked to be a park. There were people +scattered throughout the entire park. And I heard a noise from my right +rear, which to me seemed to be a firecracker. I immediately looked +to my right, and, in so doing, my eyes had to cross the Presidential +limousine and I saw President Kennedy grab at himself and lurch forward +and to the left. + +Mr. SPECTER. Why don't you just proceed, in narrative form, to tell us? + +Representative BOGGS. This was the first shot? + +Mr. HILL. This is the first sound that I heard; yes, sir. I jumped from +the car, realizing that something was wrong, ran to the Presidential +limousine. Just about as I reached it, there was another sound, +which was different than the first sound. I think I described it in +my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard +object--it seemed to have some type of an echo. I put my right foot, I +believe it was, on the left rear step of the automobile, and I had a +hold of the handgrip with my hand, when the car lurched forward. I lost +my footing and I had to run about three or four more steps before I +could get back up in the car. + +Between the time I originally grabbed the handhold and until I was up +on the car, Mrs. Kennedy--the second noise that I heard had removed a +portion of the President's head, and he had slumped noticeably to his +left. Mrs. Kennedy had jumped up from the seat and was, it appeared to +me, reaching for something coming off the right rear bumper of the +car, the right rear tail, when she noticed that I was trying to climb +on the car. She turned toward me and I grabbed her and put her back in +the back seat, crawled up on top of the back seat and lay there. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, referring to Commission Exhibit No. 354, would +you mark an "X", as best you can, at the spot where the President's +automobile was at the time the first shot occurred? + +Mr. HILL. Approximately there. + +Mr. SPECTER. And would you mark a "Y" at the approximate position where +the President's car was at the second shot you have described? What is +your best estimate of the speed of the President's car at the precise +time of the first shot, Mr. Hill? + +Mr. HILL. We were running between 12 to 15 miles per hour, but no +faster than 15 miles per hour. + +Mr. SPECTER. How many shots have you described that you heard? + +Mr. HILL. Two. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear any more than two shots? + +Mr. HILL. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is your best estimate of the speed of the +President's automobile at the time of the second shot? + +Mr. HILL. Approximately the same speed as that of the first--although +at the time that I jumped on the car, the car had surged forward. The +President at that time had been shot in the head. + +Mr. SPECTER. When, in relationship to the second shot, did the car +accelerate--that is, the President's car? + +Mr. HILL. Almost simultaneously. + +Mr. SPECTER. You testified just a moment ago that the President grabbed +at himself immediately after the first noise which you described as +sounding like a firecracker. + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us with more particularity in what way he +grabbed at himself? + +Mr. HILL. He grabbed in this general area. + +Mr. SPECTER. You are indicating that your right hand is coming up to +your--to the throat? + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And the left hand crosses right under the right hand. + +Mr. HILL. To the chest area. + +Mr. SPECTER. To the chest area. Was there any movement of the +President's head or shoulders immediately after the first shot, that +you recollect? + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. Immediately when I saw him, he was like this, and +going left and forward. + +Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a little fall to the left front. + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. + +Representative BOGGS. This was after a head wound? + +Mr. HILL. No, sir. + +Representative BOGGS. Before the head wound? + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; this was the first shot. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, what is your best estimate on the timespan between +the first firecracker-type noise you heard and the second shot which +you have described? + +Mr. HILL. Approximately 5 seconds. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, did the impact on the President's head occur +simultaneously, before, or after the second noise which you have +described? + +Mr. HILL. Almost simultaneously. + +Representative FORD. Did you see the President put his hands to his +throat and chest while you were still on the followup car, or after you +had left it? + +Mr. HILL. As I was leaving. And that is one of the reasons I jumped, +because I saw him grab himself and pitch forward and to the left. I +knew something was wrong. + +Representative FORD. It was 5 seconds from the firecracker noise that +you think you got to the automobile? + +Mr. HILL. Until I reached the handhold, had placed my foot on the left +rear step. + +Mr. SPECTER. When, in relationship to the second shot, did Mrs. Kennedy +move out of the rear seat? + +Mr. HILL. Just after it. + +Mr. SPECTER. You say that it appeared that she was reaching as if +something was coming over to the rear portion of the car, back in the +area where you were coming to? + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything back there that you observed, that she +might have been reaching for? + +Mr. HILL. I thought I saw something come off the back, too, but I +cannot say that there was. I do know that the next day we found the +portion of the President's head. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where did you find that portion of the President's head? + +Mr. HILL. It was found in the street. It was turned in, I believe, by a +medical student or somebody in Dallas. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any difficulty maintaining your balance on +the back of the car after you had come up on the top of it? + +Mr. HILL. Not until we turned off to enter the Parkland Hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, what action did you take specifically with respect to +placing Mrs. Kennedy back in the rear seat? + +Mr. HILL. I simply just pushed and she moved--somewhat +voluntarily--right back into the same seat she was in. The +President--when she had attempted to get out onto the trunk of the car, +his body apparently did not move too much, because when she got back +into the car he was at that time, when I got on top of the car, face up +in her lap. + +Mr. SPECTER. And that was after she was back in the rear seat? + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And where were the President's legs at that time? + +Mr. HILL. Inside the car. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, what, if anything, did you observe as to the +condition of Governor Connally at that time? + +Mr. HILL. After going under this underpass, I looked forward to the +jump seats, where Mrs. Connally and Governor Connally were sitting. +Mrs. Connally had been leaning over her husband. And I had no idea that +he had been shot. And when she leaned back at one time, I noticed that +his coat was unbuttoned, and that the lower portion of his abdomen was +completely covered with blood. + +Mr. SPECTER. When was it that you first observed that? + +Mr. HILL. Just after going under the underpass. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to observe anything which was occurring on +the overpass as the President's motorcade moved toward the overpass? + +Mr. HILL. From the time I got on the back of the Presidential +limousine, I didn't really pay any attention to what was going on +outside the automobile. + +Mr. SPECTER. Had you noticed the overpass prior to the time you got on +the Presidential automobile? + +Mr. HILL. Yes; I had scanned it. + +Mr. SPECTER. And do you recollect what, if anything, you observed on +the overpass at that time? + +Mr. HILL. There were some people there, but I also noticed there was a +policeman there. + +Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how many people would you say were there? + +Mr. HILL. Very few, I would say--maybe five, six. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how were you able to identify that there was a +policeman there? + +Mr. HILL. He was wearing the uniform--presumably a policeman. + +Mr. SPECTER. What color uniform was it? + +Mr. HILL. I think it was blue of some shade. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you identify it at that time as being of the identical +color which other Dallas policemen were wearing whom you had observed +in the area? + +Mr. HILL. That's correct, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Can you characterize the type of acceleration which the +car made after it started to speed forward--that is, the Presidential +car. + +Mr. HILL. Well, the initial surge was quite violent, because it +almost jerked me off the left rear step board. Then after that it was +apparently gradual, because I did not notice it any more. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the distance from the time +of the shooting to Parkland Hospital? + +Mr. HILL. In time or---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Time and distance. + +Mr. HILL. Distance, I have no idea. + +Mr. SPECTER. How about time? + +Mr. HILL. I would say roughly 4 minutes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Kennedy say anything as you were proceeding from +the time of the shooting to Parkland Hospital? + +Mr. HILL. At the time of the shooting, when I got into the rear of the +car, she said, "My God, they have shot his head off." Between there and +the hospital she just said, "Jack, Jack, what have they done to you," +and sobbed. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there any conversation by anybody else in the +President's automobile from the time of the shooting to the arrival at +Parkland Hospital? + +Mr. HILL. I heard Special Agent Kellerman say on the radio, "To the +nearest hospital, quick." + +Mr. SPECTER. Any other comment? + +Mr. HILL. He said, "We have been hit." + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, was there any other comment you heard Special Agent +Kellerman make? + +Mr. HILL. Not that I recall. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did Special Agent Greer say anything? + +Mr. HILL. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Connally say anything? + +Mr. HILL. No, sir. + +Representative BOGGS. Was Governor Connally conscious? + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; he was. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did Governor Connally say anything? + +Mr. HILL. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did President Kennedy say anything? + +Mr. HILL. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate on the speed at which the +President's car traveled from the point of the shooting to Parkland +Hospital? + +Mr. HILL. It is a little bit hard for me to judge, since I was lying +across the rear portion of the automobile. I had no trouble staying in +that particular position--until we approached the hospital, I recall, +I believe it was a left-hand turn and I started slipping off to the +right-hand portion of the car. So I would say that we went 60, maybe 65 +at the most. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to secure a handhold or a leg-hold or any +sort of a hold on the automobile as you moved forward? + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. I had my legs--I had my body above the rear seat, +and my legs hooked down into the rear seat, one foot outside the car. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the time of the +assassination itself? + +Mr. HILL. Approximately 12:30. + +Mr. SPECTER. I am not sure whether I asked you about this--about how +long did it take you to get from the shooting to the hospital? + +Mr. HILL. Approximately 4 minutes. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to President Kennedy's condition +on arrival at the hospital? + +Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying +in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and +bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy +was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could +not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one +large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any opportunity to observe the front part of +his body, to see whether there was any tear or rip in the clothing on +the front? + +Mr. HILL. I saw him lying there in the back of the car, when I was +immediately above him. I cannot recall noticing anything that was +ripped in the forward portion of his body. + +Mr. SPECTER. What action, if any, did you take to shield the +President's body? + +Mr. HILL. I kept myself above the President and Mrs. Kennedy on the +trip to Parkland. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you do anything with your coat upon arrival at +Parkland Hospital to shield the President? + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. I removed it and covered the President's head and +upper chest. + +Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you observe as to Governor +Connally's condition on arrival at Parkland? + +Mr. HILL. He was conscious. There was a large amount of blood in +the lower abdominal area. He was helped from the automobile to the +stretcher, and I do not recall him saying anything, but I know that he +was conscious. He was wheeled immediately into, I think, emergency room +No. 2. + +Mr. SPECTER. And who was removed first from the automobile? + +Mr. HILL. Governor Connally. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long after the President's car arrived at Parkland +Hospital did medical personnel come to the scene to remove the victims? + +Mr. HILL. Seconds. They were there when we were there almost--almost +simultaneously with the arrival. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know where President Kennedy was taken in the +hospital? + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. I accompanied he, and Mrs. Kennedy to the emergency +room. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, tell us what you did at the hospital from the time of +arrival on, please. + +Mr. HILL. I went into the emergency room with the President, but it +was so small, and there were so many people in there that I decided I +had better leave and let the doctors take care of the situation. So I +walked outside; asked for the nearest telephone; walked to the nearest +telephone. About that time Special Agent in Charge Kellerman came +outside and said, "Get the White House." + +I asked Special Agent Lawson for the local number in Dallas of the +White House switchboard, which he gave to me. I called the switchboard +in Dallas; asked for the line to be open to Washington, and remain +open continuously. And then I asked for Special Agent in Charge Behn's +office. Mr. Kellerman came out of the emergency room about that time, +took the telephone and called Special Agent in Charge Behn that we +had had a double tragedy; that both Governor Connally and President +Kennedy had been shot. And that was about as much as he said. I then +took the telephone and shortly thereafter Mr. Kellerman came out of the +emergency room and said, "Clint, tell Jerry this is unofficial and not +for release, but the man is dead." Which I did. During the two calls, +I talked to the Attorney General, who attempted to reach me, and told +him that his brother had been seriously wounded; that we would keep him +advised as to his condition. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where was Mrs. Kennedy all this time, if you know? + +Mr. HILL. Immediately upon arrival, she went into the emergency room. +And a few minutes afterward, she was convinced to wait outside, which +she did, remained there the rest of the period of time that we were +there. + +Mr. SPECTER. And was there any pronouncement that the President had +died? + +Mr. HILL. Not that I know of. Apparently there was. I was requested by +Mr. O'Donnell, one of the Presidential assistants, to obtain a casket, +because they wanted to return to Washington immediately. I contacted +the administrator of the hospital and asked him to take me where I +could telephone the nearest mortuary, which I did, requested that their +best available casket be brought to the emergency entrance in my name +immediately. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what action was taken as a result of that request by +you? + +Mr. HILL. The casket did arrive from the O'Neal Mortuary, Inc., in +their own hearse, which we then wheeled into the emergency room. I +left the emergency room and asked that two of our agents, Special +Agent Sulliman and Assistant Special Agent in Charge Stout clear all +the corridors, and I checked the closest and most immediate route to +the ambulance. We took the body from the hospital and departed the +Parkland Hospital about 2:04 p.m. The ambulance was driven by Special +Agent Berger. Special Agent in Charge Kellerman and Assistant Special +Agent In Charge Stout were riding in the front seat; Mrs. Kennedy, Dr. +Burkley, the President's body, and myself rode in the rear portion of +the ambulance. + +Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long did it take you to reach the +airplane at Love Field? + +Mr. HILL. We arrived at Love Field at 2:14. + +Mr. SPECTER. And were you present during the swearing-in ceremonies of +President Johnson? + +Mr. HILL. I was aboard the aircraft; yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you witness those ceremonies? + +Mr. HILL. Well, the Presidential compartment was so small that not all +persons on the aircraft could get in. I was in the forward portion of +the aircraft, right adjacent to the area that the President was sworn +in. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the time of the swearing in? + +Mr. HILL. 2:38. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what time did the Presidential aircraft depart? + +Mr. HILL. 2:47. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what time it arrived in the Washington area? + +Mr. HILL. 5:59, I believe, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And where did it land? + +Mr. HILL. We landed at Andrews Air Force Base. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what action, if any, in connection with this matter +did you take following landing? + +Mr. HILL. I assisted Mrs. Kennedy and the Attorney General, who had +joined her at that time, into the ambulance bearing the President's +body, and I entered the automobile immediately behind the ambulance +with Dr. John Walsh, Mrs. Kennedy's physician, and members of President +Kennedy's staff. + +Mr. SPECTER. And where did you go then? + +Mr. HILL. Immediately to Bethesda Naval Hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you stay with the President's family at that time? + +Mr. HILL. When we arrived there, I went to the 17th floor with Mrs. +Kennedy, and I remained with Mrs. Kennedy except for one time when I +was requested to come to the morgue to view the President's body. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you view the President's body? + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. What action did you take following the time you viewed the +President's body in the morgue? + +Mr. HILL. After the viewing of the President's body? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes. + +Mr. HILL. I returned to the 17th floor and remained with Mrs. Kennedy +until we departed the hospital. + +Representative BOGGS. May I ask a question? At the hospital in Texas, +you had seen--had you seen the whole body, or just the back of the +President's head? + +Mr. HILL. I had seen the whole body, but he was still cold when I saw +him. + +Representative BOGGS. At the morgue in Bethesda he was not cold? + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; the autopsy had been completed, and the Lawler +Mortuary Co. was preparing the body for placement in a casket. + +Representative BOGGS. At this time did you see the whole body? + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. + +Representative BOGGS. Did you see any other wound other than the head +wound? + +Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I saw an opening in the back, about 6 inches below +the neckline to the right-hand side of the spinal column. + +Representative BOGGS. Was there a frontal neck injury? + +Mr. HILL. There was an area here that had been opened but---- + +Mr. SPECTER. You are indicating---- + +Mr. HILL. In the neck. It was my understanding at that time that this +was done by a tracheotomy. + +Mr. SPECTER. What else, if anything, of importance did you do between +the time you viewed the body in the morgue until the termination of +your duties on that date, Mr. Hill? + +Mr. HILL. We handled all communications on the 17th floor, up to the +17th floor, for Mrs. Kennedy, members of her family, Cabinet members +who were there at that time, and secured the 17th floor for all +personnel. No one was permitted there that we did not know. + +Mr. SPECTER. What time did you leave the 17th floor? + +Mr. HILL. I believe, sir, it was 3:56, but I am not sure of the exact +time. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where did you go from there? + +Mr. HILL. We went downstairs to the rear of the hospital, where +the body was placed in a naval ambulance. I entered an automobile +immediately behind the ambulance. Mrs. Kennedy and the Attorney General +got into the rear of the ambulance with the body. + +Mr. SPECTER. And from there, where did you go? + +Mr. HILL. I accompanied them to the White House. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did that mark the termination of your duties for that +day? + +Mr. HILL. No, sir. I remained on duty until approximately 6:30 in the +morning; went home, changed clothes, and came back. + +Mr. SPECTER. I believe you testified as to the impression you had as to +the source of the first shot. To be sure that the record is complete, +what was your reaction as to where the first shot came from, Mr. Hill? + +Mr. HILL. Right rear. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you have a reaction or impression as to the source +of point of origin of the second shot that you described? + +Mr. HILL. It was right, but I cannot say for sure that it was rear, +because when I mounted the car it was--it had a different sound, first +of all, than the first sound that I heard. The second one had almost a +double sound--as though you were standing against something metal and +firing into it, and you hear both the sound of a gun going off and the +sound of the cartridge hitting the metal place, which could have been +caused probably by the hard surface of the head. But I am not sure that +that is what caused it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you describing this double sound with respect to what +you heard on the occasion of the second shot? + +Mr. HILL. The second shot that I heard; yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, do you now or have you ever had the impression or +reaction that there was a shot which originated from the front of the +Presidential car? + +Mr. HILL. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. That is all I have. + +The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, any questions you would like to ask? + +Representative FORD. No. + +Representative BOGGS. I have no questions, Mr. Chief Justice. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Craig. + +Mr. CRAIG. No, thank you, Mr. Chief Justice. + +The CHAIRMAN. If not, thank you very much. We appreciate your coming. + +Mr. HILL. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Youngblood, will you raise your right hand? Do you +solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this Commission will +be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you +God? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I do, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. Be seated, please. + +Mr. Specter will conduct the examination. + + +TESTIMONY OF RUFUS WAYNE YOUNGBLOOD, SPECIAL AGENT, SECRET SERVICE + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Rufus Wayne Youngblood. + +Mr. SPECTER. How old are you, Mr. Youngblood? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Forty. + +Mr. SPECTER. And by whom are you employed? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. The U.S. Secret Service. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been so employed? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Since March of 1951. + +Mrs. SPECTER. What is your educational background, sir? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I graduated from Georgia Institute of Technology. +Bachelor of Industrial Engineering. + +Mr. SPECTER. In what year? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. 1949. + +Mr. SPECTER. How were you occupied from termination of your college +work until starting with the Secret Service? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I worked for Bradshaws, Inc., which was a refrigeration +and air-conditioning concern in Waycross, Ga., and then worked for +Alvin Lindstrom, who is a consulting mechanical engineer in Atlanta, Ga. + +Mr. SPECTER. And would you outline in general terms what your duties +have been with the Secret Service since the time you joined them? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I began in the Secret Service as a special agent, +criminal investigator, and started off at the Atlanta field office, +and stayed there about a year and a half. This time was spent +in investigation of Government forged check cases, bond cases, +counterfeiting, and similar investigations. + +(At this point, Chief Justice Warren withdrew from the hearing room.) + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I came to the Washington, DC. area, and worked in the +Washington field office, a continuation of the same type of work I had +done in Atlanta, plus the beginning of the protective work, working +on temporary assignment at the White House detail. And then in 1953 +I was assigned to the White House detail and worked there during the +Eisenhower Administration about 6 years, and returned to the Atlanta +field office for 3 more years in that area, during which time President +Eisenhower would come to Augusta and Albany, and on two occasions on +foreign trips I was called in. + +And after 3 years in that field office, I returned to Washington again, +assigned to the White House detail. The last part of the Eisenhower +Administration and the beginning of the Kennedy Administration. + +And in March of 1961, I was assigned to the Vice-Presidential detail. +This, at that time, was part of the Washington field office. And I have +been on an assignment with the Vice-Presidential detail since March +1961, except for a 1-month period when I returned to the White House +detail. And then back to the Vice-Presidential detail. + +But during this time, the Vice-Presidential detail changed from a +field office assignment to a small independent office, and then, +later, in October of 1962, when legislation was passed, changing +the laws relative to protection of the Vice President, it became a +larger detail. And I have been on the Vice-Presidential detail in the +occurrence at Dallas, and returned to the White House detail when Mr. +Johnson became the President. + +And during this period of time, I have been a special agent, assistant +special agent in charge, and was scheduled to be the special agent in +charge of the Vice-Presidential detail. But due to what occurred in +Dallas, I went to the White House as an assistant special agent in +charge. + +Any other particulars? + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, what was your rank at the time of the Dallas trip, +specifically on November 22, 1963? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I was the assistant special agent in charge of the +Vice-Presidential detail. + +(At this point, Chief Justice Warren entered the hearing room.) + +Mr. SPECTER. And as such, were you responsible for the security of the +Vice President on that trip? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, what is your current rank? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Assistant special agent in charge of the White House +detail. + +Mr. SPECTER. And, as such, do you hold one of the three positions of +the assistant special agent in charge at the White House detail? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And is that a rank comparable or exactly the same as that +now held by Special Agent Kellerman? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir; he is senior to me, but it is a comparable +rank. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you outline briefly and in general terms the +activities of Vice President Johnson during the few days immediately +before Friday, November 22, 1963? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. On Tuesday of that week we made a trip from the ranch +to Dallas, and we went by commercial plane--actually, from the ranch +to Austin in the Vice President's plane, and from Austin to Dallas on +a commercial plane. And while in Dallas, he addressed the Bottlers +Convention. And we returned to the plane, flew back to Austin, then +flew back to the ranch later that night, and remained at the ranch the +next day and through Thursday. + +And on Thursday we went to San Antonio, to join the group coming down +from Washington. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, when did Vice President Johnson then address the +Bottlers Association in Dallas? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. That was on Tuesday. + +Mr. SPECTER. November 19? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I would have to look at a calendar. + +Mr. SPECTER. The preceding Tuesday---- + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. The preceding Tuesday before the 22d; yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, outline in a general way Vice President Johnson's +activities on the morning of November 22d, before he arrived in Dallas, +if you would, please. + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, our day began at the hotel in Fort Worth, where +we had stayed overnight. And that morning we went down to a mezzanine +floor where we met with President Kennedy and a group of White House +people. We went across from this hotel to a parking lot across the +street, and they had a speaker stand there, and they addressed an +assembled gathering. + +Then they returned to the hotel, and there was a breakfast meeting in +the hotel. They attended that. And, after that, we formed a motorcade +and went to the field nearby in Fort Worth and boarded Air Force 2, and +flew into Dallas. + +Mr. SPECTER. Approximately what time did the Vice Presidential plane +arrive in Dallas? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. About 11:35. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you tell the Commission in general terms what +Vice President Johnson did upon arrival at the Love Field? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. All right, sir. + +This plane, Air Force 2, had on board the Vice President and Mrs. +Johnson and other officials. And we disembarked from the plane and were +met by a welcoming committee composed of local dignitaries. And then we +moved from that area where we disembarked over to the area of the ramp, +which would be pushed out when Air Force 1, the President's plane, +arrived. And when his plane did arrive, which was just a few minutes +after ours, roughly 10 minutes, we went out to the foot of the ramp and +Vice President Johnson and Mrs. Johnson headed the reception committee +to greet the people who came off of Air Force 1. + +Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long did the activities in greeting the +crowd and the general reception last at Love Field on that morning? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Do you mean from the time we arrived on Air Force 2 +until we left? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes. + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I think it was about 15 minutes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, in what position in the motorcade was Vice President +Johnson's automobile? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. We were following the Presidential followup car, and +the motorcade up to our point--there was a lead car, the President's +car, the Presidential followup car, and then our car. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there, to your knowledge, in advance of the lead car a +car known as the pilot car? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir; in all probability. This is a normal police +arrangement. + +Mr. SPECTER. And would you identify the occupants of Vice President +Johnson's car, indicating the positions in the car of each individual? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. All right, sir. The driver of this car was Hurchel +Jacks, and he is with the State Highway Patrol. And behind him was +Senator Ralph Yarborough, from Texas. And in the middle back seat was +Mrs. Johnson. And on the right-hand side of the back seat, behind me, +was the Vice President. And I was in the front seat on the right-hand +side. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what kind of an automobile was it? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. This was a Lincoln convertible, a four-door convertible. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is this a specially constructed automobile, or was it +obtained locally for use during this trip? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. It was obtained locally for use during the trip. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what car immediately followed the Vice President's +automobile? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. The Vice Presidential detail had a followup car which +followed our car. + +Mr. SPECTER. What kind of an automobile was that? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. It was either a Lincoln or a Mercury, I don't know the +exact make. It was a Ford product, and it was a four-door car. But it +was closed. + +Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify the occupants of that car, stating where +each sat? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. The front seat, the driver, I think his name is Rich. +He is always on the Texas Highway Patrol. In the front seat in the +middle is Cliff Carter. He is an assistant to the Vice President's +staff. + +(At this point, Representative Boggs withdrew from the hearing room.) + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. On the right-front side was Jerry Kivett. He is one +of the agents on the Vice Presidential detail. And in the back seat, +behind the driver, was Warren Taylor, and in the back seat on the other +side was my agent, Lem Johns. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how many cars there were in the balance of the +motorcade? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the maximum speed at which the motorcade +proceeded from Love Field down to the downtown area of Dallas? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I doubt if the motorcade ever exceeded 20 miles or 25 +miles an hour, and most of the time it was going slower than that. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the minimum speed, would you estimate, during +that time? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. We actually came to stops during this time. + +Mr. SPECTER. How many stops? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. More than one. Two or more. + +Mr. SPECTER. What occurred during the course of those stops, or what +prompted them? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, these stops were made by the Presidential car +to greet well-wishers, students on one particular occasion, and other +groups of well-wishers, that were assembled along the streets. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did Vice President Johnson greet anyone at those stops? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. He did greet them, but he didn't leave the car, I +think. He remained in the car. I got out of the car and stood by the +side of it on more than one occasion. He waved at people, and some did +run over, and I think he did touch some. But he didn't leave the car. + +Mr. SPECTER. How far behind the President's followup car did the Vice +President's followup car drive? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. The Vice President's followup car? + +Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me--the Vice President's automobile. + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. We usually stayed on motorcades like this about two or +three car lengths behind. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did your distance on this occasion conform to your +customary practice of being that distance behind? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is the reason, if any, for staying that distance +behind the President's followup car? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, mainly so the crowd can see the Vice President, +and he can see them. If you are too close behind the Presidential +group, the crowd will be watching the President and will watch him +as he goes by, and then they will miss the next man. So it gives the +people a chance to recover and look back and see him, and they to see +each other. + +Mr. SPECTER. I show you a photograph which has been marked as +Commission Exhibit No. 354, and ask you if you are able to identify +what that is a picture of. + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what does that depict? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, it is a picture showing the main street, Houston +Street and Elm Street, and the assassination occurred on Elm Street. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you familiar at this time with the identities of Main, +Houston, and Elm? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir; when I have a map such as this ahead of me. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. How far behind the President's automobile was +the Vice President's automobile in which you were riding when the Vice +President's automobile turned right off of Main Street onto Houston? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. You ask again how far were we behind the President's +car? Did you mean, sir, how far were we behind the Presidential +followup car? + +Mr. SPECTER. No; I meant the President's car on that occasion. + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, we were a distance of about two car lengths +behind the followup car, and they were probably one car length behind +the Presidential car. But this would be a guess on my part. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the situation with respect to the crowd which was +lined up on Houston and Elm as you approached that intersection? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. On Houston Street, on the side where the tall building +is, the crowd was still somewhat continuous. On the side which is the +park side, the crowd was smaller. They did have some people there, but +it wasn't continuous in the same way it was on the building side. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the speed of the Vice +President's car as you proceeded down Houston Street toward Elm Street? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, our speed, of course, was governed by the +vehicles in front of us, but I would say we had just made one turn, and +it was only a block there before we would make another turn. It was +approximately 10 miles an hour, between 10 and 15. + +Mr. SPECTER. I show you a photograph which has been marked as +Commission Exhibit No. 348, and I ask you if you are now able to +identify what that building is? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir; I am now able to identify it. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is that building, sir? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. That is the School Book Depository Building. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where, as best you can recollect, was the Vice President's +car at the time the first shots were heard? And would you take +Commission Exhibit No. 354 and take the red pencil and mark as closely +as you can the exact position on Commission Exhibit 354 of the Vice +President's car with the capital letter "A" there? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. At the time of the first shot, did you say? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. It will be in this area here, I should think. + +Mr. SPECTER. I want the Vice President's car at this time. + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, this is what I am attempting to locate. It would +be in the vicinity of this "X" right here, I do believe. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, will you describe---- + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Excuse me. You said put an "A" here? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes, please. Will you describe just what occurred as the +motorcade proceeded past the intersection of Houston and Elm Streets? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, the crowd had begun to diminish, looking ahead +and to the right the crowd became spotty. I mean it wasn't continuous +at all, like it had been. As we were beginning to go down this incline, +all of a sudden there was an explosive noise. I quickly observed +unnatural movement of crowds, like ducking or scattering, and quick +movements in the Presidential followup car. So I turned around and hit +the Vice President on the shoulder and hollered, get down, and then +looked around again and saw more of this movement, and so I proceeded +to go to the back seat and get on top of him. + +I then heard two more shots. But I would like to say this. I would not +be positive that I was back on that back seat before the second shot. +But the Vice President himself said I was. But--then in hearing these +two more shots, I again had seen more movement, and I think someone +else hit a siren--I heard the noise of a siren. + +I told the driver to close it up, and stick close to that car in front. +And right away we started a hasty evacuation speed, and left this +immediate area, and we were following close behind. And I had a radio +which was on a Baker frequency, where I could communicate back with the +agents in my followup car. And they had a Charlie frequency, which was +on the same network of the Presidential motorcade. And I called back +and said I am switching to Baker frequency--I said, "I am switching to +Charlie." And as I switched, I heard some transmission over the Charlie +sets saying for me to keep my man covered, and I heard Kivett reply to +Emory Roberts that he was covered, and I saw agents in the followup +car, the Presidential followup car signaling us to stay close. I asked +the driver what his opinion was as to--I don't know for exact sure +just where we were going, but I knew our best protection was to stay +with that Presidential followup crew. And I asked the driver if he had +passed the Trade Mart. He said he passed it and we were going on to the +hospital. And I heard indications over the radio that we were going to +the hospital. We had a very fast ride there. + +I told the driver to go as fast as he could without having a wreck. +There was some conversation between the Vice President and myself +while we were going to the hospital. I told him that I didn't know +how serious it was up in the front car, but when we arrived at the +hospital, I would like to get out of the car and go into the building +and not stop, and for him to stay close to myself and the other agents. +He agreed to. + +When we arrived at the hospital, we immediately went right in. As we +stopped at the hospital, two of my agents from the Vice Presidential +car, followup car, were coming up to meet us, and two from the +Presidential followup were coming to meet us, and, with this group, we +proceeded into the hospital and then went into a room. I posted one +man at the door and said, not to let anyone in unless he knew him, was +certain of his identity. + +I told Jerry Kivett and Warren Taylor to pull all the shades and +blinds, which they did. And they also busied themselves with evacuating +a couple of people out of there. There was a nurse and a patient in +there. + +Mr. SPECTER. Before you go on, Mr. Youngblood, let me drop back and +pick up a few of the details theretofore. + +What would your best estimate be of the speed of the Vice President's +car at the time you heard that first explosive noise? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Oh, approximately 12 miles an hour. + +Mr. SPECTER. And had you maintained the distance which you have +described heretofore behind the President's followup car? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, generally. Sometimes as we went around corners, +we tried to close up the gap a little bit. But as soon as we got on a +straight stretch, we would drop back two or three car lengths. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, at this particular time, what is your best +recollection of the distance between the Presidential followup car and +the Vice President's car? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. We are on Elm Street now. + +Mr. SPECTER. At the time the first shot occurred. + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. We were two or three car lengths behind. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how far behind the President's car was the +Presidential followup car at the time of the first shot? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I would think somewhat less than a car length. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the total timespan between +the first and third shots which you have already described? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. From the beginning to the last? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I would think 5 seconds. + +Mr. SPECTER. And you have described the first shot as being an +explosive noise. How would you describe each of the second and third +shots? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, there wasn't too much difference in the noise +of the first shot and the last two. I am not really sure that there +was a difference. But in my mind, I think I identified the last two +positively as shots, whereas the first one I thought was just an +explosive noise, and I didn't know whether it was a firecracker or a +shot. It seems, as I try to think over it, there was more of a crack +sound to the last two shots. That may have been distance, I don't know. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, as to time interval--was there longer or less time or +the same between the first and second shots and the second and third +shots? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. There seemed to be a longer span of time between the +first and the second shot than there was between the second and third +shot. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you have any reaction or impression as to the +source or point of origin of the first shot? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I didn't know where the source or the point of origin +was, of course, but the sounds all came to my right and rear. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, how about as to the latter two shots, would the same +apply, or would there be a different situation there? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. No; all of them seemed to sound that they were from the +right. + +Representative FORD. Did they sound on the surface or in the air or +couldn't you discern? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I couldn't say for certain. I don't know. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you then or have you ever had any contrary +impression that the shots might have come from in front as opposed to +the rear of the automobile? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, you say that you hit the Vice President's shoulder, +and at that time you were indicating your left hand, I believe. + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Which hand did you use in hitting the Vice President's +shoulder? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. My left, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And which shoulder of the Vice President did you hit? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. His right, because I turned this way. I turned to my +left, with the hand out, and then came into his right shoulder. + +Mr. SPECTER. And when you moved from the front to the rear seat, would +you describe in as much detail as you can your relative position with +respect to the position of President Johnson's body? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, the Vice President says that I vaulted over. It +was more of a stepping over. And then I sat on top of him, he being +crouched down somewhat. + +Mr. SPECTER. Indicating towards the left? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. He moved towards the center, or towards his left, yes, +sir, and down. And then I sat on this portion of his arm here. + +Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the right upper portion of the arm from elbow +to the shoulder? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir; generally. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what were the positions of the other occupants of the +back seat at the time you sat on the Vice President? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Mrs. Johnson more or less moved into a forward--just +moved forward. And Senator Yarborough also moved forward, and possibly +he moved over a little to the right. I am not sure. But we were all +below the window level of the car. And those two generally were +forward. But the Vice President was forward and a little to his left. + +Mr. SPECTER. In what direction did you look when you were first sitting +on the Vice President? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. In what direction did I look? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes. + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Almost all directions. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a reaction with respect to looking in the +direction from which you thought the danger was emanating? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I think I first looked to the right--but to the right, +forward, up, as much as I could scan, and also the people in the +Presidential followup car. Because I recall seeing at the time one of +our agents, Hickey, who was in the Presidential followup car, in almost +a standing position with an AR-15 looking back and up. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to fix the precise time of the assassination? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I would say 12:30. I was to keep the times. The Vice +President was asking me if we were running on time, and so forth. And +so he asked me how much further, and I would call back to our followup +car and ask them how many more miles and so forth. + +So, for this reason, I was at that time keeping up with the time very +closely. And when we turned the corner, I noticed an illuminated clock +sign on this building, which I now know is the School Book Depository +Building. And that clock indicated 12:30. And the reason it is +significant is because this was the time we were supposed to arrive at +the Trade Mart. + +Representative FORD. As you looked at the school depository building, +and noticed this clock, where is the clock? Can you identify it? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. This, right here. + +Representative FORD. It is on top of the roof? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir; right up here. + +Representative FORD. And this is after you turned from Main Street on +to Houston Street? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. We were on Houston Street--just as soon as we got on +Houston Street. And I looked up and I saw it there. + +Representative FORD. Did you notice anything else on the building as +you scanned it from the top down, or from the bottom up? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I noticed open windows, and some people, I think. But I +didn't notice this particular window. + +Representative FORD. You saw nothing unusual in any of the open windows +that you noticed? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, sir, all through the day here we had been passing +buildings with windows and people. And that I saw. But I saw nothing +unusual. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Youngblood, what is your best estimate as to the time +it took to get to Parkland Hospital after the shooting occurred? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I believe it was between 5 and 8 minutes, something of +that nature. + +(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.) + +Mr. SPECTER. And at what speed did your automobile proceed, based on +your best estimate, en route from the shooting to Parkland Hospital? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I believe we were going around 60 or 70 miles an hour +at times. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you observe President Kennedy or Governor +Connally being removed from the President's automobile? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. No, sir; because I had--as I mentioned before--I had +told the Vice President, or suggested to the Vice President that we did +not want to linger, and get into the building as quickly as we could, +and we would find out the condition of the other party after we got +into a safe place. + +Mr. SPECTER. Had they already been taken in by the time you arrived at +the scene? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. No, sir; I don't hardly see how they could have been, +because we arrived almost simultaneously with them. It was just a +matter of opening the door and getting out of the car and hastily +walking right on past. I think they were in the act of removing these +people, but I don't think they would have had time to have removed them. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you enter the emergency entrance as well? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, I interrupted you before when you were describing the +security arrangements which you were making on the room to which you +took the Vice President. Would you continue and describe for us what +occurred thereafter? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. At what point? + +Mr. SPECTER. I interrupted you. You were in the room, you had pulled +the shades down, and were making security arrangements for the Vice +President. + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, we were in a corner of this room, and there was +the Vice President, Mrs. Johnson, and myself at first, with agents +Kivett and Warren Taylor also in the big room, but not right over in +the corner at the beginning. And shortly thereafter Emory Roberts came +in. He was one of the White House detail agents. He told us that the +situation--situation with President Kennedy looked very bad. The Vice +President asked me what I thought--what we should do. And I said I +think we should evacuate the hospital as soon as we can, and get on +the plane, and return to Washington. And Emory Roberts concurred. And +the Vice President agreed. But he wanted to get a better report on the +condition and so forth. + +Then we were joined by many others. Congressman Homer Thornberry came +in, and Congressman Brooks, and Cliff Carter, and the Vice President +had some conversations with these gentlemen. And at one time Cliff +went out and got coffee. And then Mr. Ken O'Donnell and Roy Kellerman +came down on one occasion, and Ken O'Donnell said for us to return to +Washington, and to go ahead and take the President's plane. + +The Vice President was worried about Mrs. Kennedy. So Mrs. Johnson +thought that she would go see Mrs. Kennedy and Mrs. Connally. She did. +Agents Kivett and Taylor went with her. Then later, after she came +back, Ken O'Donnell and Roy Kellerman came down again and told us that +the President had died. + +Mr. SPECTER. About what time was that, sir? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I don't know. I had told Lem Johns to try to keep up +with all the times. I think it is a matter of record. I believe you +have it in other documents. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, are you referring to a document which I will mark as +Commission Exhibit 355? + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 355 for +identification.) + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. This is our shift report, and this is the times that +Lem Johns was keeping that day. He shows 1 p.m., President Kennedy died +at Parkland Hospital. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was that daily shift report prepared under your +supervision, Mr. Youngblood? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you review it and approve it when it was completed, +after the end of the workday on November 22? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, not exactly at the end of the workday, sir. These +agents would keep notes. And in this particular case you can see that +this one, it says, "Date completed, December 2" down at the bottom. +That is when he got around to typing it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, does this document bear your initial in any place? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir; up at the top. The "RYW" is my initials. + +Mr. SPECTER. And does that signify your approval shortly after +completion of the document? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. Would you go ahead and tell us what your +activities were from the time you had learned that the President had +died? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, when Mr. O'Donnell and Roy Kellerman told us that +he had died, the Vice President said, "Well, how about Mrs. Kennedy?" + +O'Donnell told the Vice President that Mrs. Kennedy would not leave the +hospital without the President's body. And O'Donnell suggested we go +to the plane and that they just come on the other plane. And I might +add that, as a word of explanation, there were two jet planes, one Air +Force 1, in which the President flew, and the other Air Force 2, in +which the Vice President and his party flew on. And O'Donnell told us +to go ahead and take Air Force 1. I believe this is mainly because Air +Force 1 has better communications equipment and so forth than the other +planes. + +President Johnson said that he didn't want to go off and leave Mrs. +Kennedy in such a state. And so he agreed that we would go on to the +airplane and board the plane and wait until Mrs. Kennedy and the body +would come out. Shall I go on? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes. Proceed. Did you then depart from Parkland Hospital? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir; previous to all of this, I had Johns, my +agent, line up some unmarked police cars so that they would be ready +when we did decide to evacuate the hospital. + +So we left the room and proceeded out to these cars. The car that +we went in was driven by Chief Curry, the Dallas Police Chief, and +Congressman Thornberry was in the front seat, and the Vice President +and I were in the back seat. And I had told the Vice President before +we left the room that I would prefer that he stay below window level, +and stay close with me as we went out, and that I would also prefer +Mrs. Johnson to go in another car, but she would be accompanied by +agents. And Mrs. Johnson did get in a second car. She was accompanied +by Warren Taylor and Jerry Kivett and Congressman Brooks, and also Glen +Bennett, another agent from the White House. + +And as we started to leave the hospital area, that is drive away, +just as we started away, Congressman Thomas saw us leaving--I imagine +he saw Congressman Thornberry, and he said, "Wait for me." I don't +think he saw the Vice President. And I told the driver to continue. I +didn't want to stop there in front of the hospital. But by this time +Congressman Thomas was right over at the side of the car, and the Vice +President said, "Stop and let him get in." + +So he got in in the front seat with Congressman Thornberry, having +Congressman Thornberry move over closer to the driver. And then we +started out again. This probably takes longer to tell about it than it +actually took. It was about a 30-second stop. + +We started out again, and the Vice President asked Congressman +Thornberry to climb on over and get in the back seat, which he did, +while the car was in motion. And then that put Congressman Thornberry +behind the driver, and on the Vice President's left, and I was on his +right. + +And we continued on our way. We were momentarily stopped as we were +leaving the hospital on this access road. There was a truck or delivery +or something coming in there. We were stopped for one moment. But then +the police got us on through, and we went on out to the main roads, and +we were getting a motorcycle escort. + +And they started using the sirens, and the Vice President and I both +asked Chief Curry to discontinue the use of sirens, that we didn't want +to attract attention. We were going on an unscheduled different route. +We were not using any particular route. But in telling Lem Johns to get +a car available, I told him to be sure and get a local driver who knew +the area, a local policeman who could take us any route that we needed +to go, and knew all the areas of evacuation and so forth. + +So we went on to the airport. But we did have him stop using the +sirens. And just before arriving at the airport, I called on the radio +and told Air Force 1 to be ready to receive us, that we would be coming +on board immediately. We arrived there and ran up the ramp onto the +plane. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how long after that did the swearing-in ceremonies +occur? Approximately? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I would say in the neighborhood of about 40 or 45 +minutes after that. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long after the arrival of the Vice President on the +plane did the party of the late President Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy +arrive at the plane? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Approximately--after we got on the plane, I would say +it was approximately 30 or 35 minutes before Mrs. Kennedy and that +party arrived. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how long after the swearing-in ceremonies did the +plane take off for the Washington area? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. After the swearing-in ceremonies, it took off +immediately. It was just a matter of letting the people who had to get +off the plane, such as Judge Hughes and Chief Curry disembark, and as +soon as they had disembarked, we closed the door and started taxiing +out. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were there any conversations between Vice President +Johnson and anyone else with respect to advice on the swearing-in +ceremonies? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir. I think probably the first thing the Vice +President did after he got on board the plane was to place a call to +the Attorney General. In fact, he talked to the Attorney General, I +believe, two times--at least two times. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you present when those conversations occurred? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I was present when he placed the first call. I think he +placed the first call from the bedroom there of the plane. Then someone +from the Attorney General's office called back--not the Attorney +General, but someone from the office--and gave the wording of the oath. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you informed as to what advice Vice President Johnson +received from Mr. Kennedy with respect to the time of swearing in? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I heard him discussing this--because after we got on +board the plane I told them to pull down the shades, and then I told +the Vice President, I am going to stick with you like glue while we +are on the ground here. And so we were joined by Mrs. Johnson and then +by Congressman Thornberry and Thomas, and Congressman Brooks. And I +heard them discussing about taking the oath immediately, right there in +Dallas. I heard the Vice President ask about anyone in particular that +should administer the oath. And as I gathered from conversation, it was +anyone who was authorized to administer a Federal oath. And then he put +in calls to Judge Hughes, and he told me to expect Judge Hughes and to +be sure she could get through the security lines. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, were you informed that Attorney General Kennedy +advised Vice President Johnson that he should have himself sworn in as +promptly as possible? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, as I said, I was in the area, in their immediate +vicinity, when they were talking about it. And this is what I gathered +from hearing them talk--that the Attorney General had told him to go +ahead and be sworn in there, as soon as possible. + +Mr. SPECTER. And upon arrival back in Andrews Air Force Base, what +activity, if any, were you engaged in then, along with President +Johnson? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, on the plane, on the flight up here, there had +been numerous radio contacts in making arrangements and so forth. But +when we actually arrived, Mrs. Kennedy and the body were removed first +by the lift that was provided, and then when the ramp was in place, +our party disembarked from the plane, and then President Johnson had a +short statement that he was to make, and we went over to an area where +the microphones were set up, and he made this brief statement. And then +we proceeded from there to the awaiting helicopter, which was just a +few yards away. We boarded the helicopter and flew in to the south +grounds of the White House. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you then accompany President Johnson to his home? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. He didn't go to his home at that time; but the answer +to your question is yes, when he did go later that night. You see, +he went to his office in the EOB, the Executive Office Building, and +conducted business there until in the vicinity of 9 o'clock. And then +he went home, at which time I accompanied him, and many other agents. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe briefly what security arrangements if +any were instituted on that day for the Vice President's daughters? + +Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir. + +While we were in the hospital, receiving these reports relative to +President Kennedy's condition, I asked Mrs. Johnson--I knew generally +where Luci and Lynda were, but I wanted to get the very latest from +her, since sometimes these girls might visit a friend or a relative. +And I knew that Lynda was going to the University of Texas, and that +Luci was going to National Cathedral. So I confirmed the locations with +Mrs. Johnson and then told Agent Kivett, who was in our presence at the +time I was talking to her, to make the necessary calls to have Secret +Service protection placed around Lynda and Luci. And Agent Kivett made +these calls and then came back and reported to me that Lockwood, from +Austin, who is in the San Antonio office, but he was in Austin at the +time, had proceeded to the University of Texas to get Lynda, and that +an agent from the Washington field office would go out and get Luci at +the school. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, I move for the admission into evidence +of Commission Exhibits No. 354, which is a reproduction of the overhead +shot, and 355, which is a reproduction of the Vice Presidential detail +schedules. + +The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted. + +(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission +Exhibits Nos. 354 and 355, were received in evidence.) + +Mr. SPECTER. That concludes my questions, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Craig, any questions? + +Mr. CRAIG. No, sir. + +Mr. MURRAY. I have no questions, Mr. Chief Justice. + +The CHAIRMAN. Well, Agent Youngblood, thank you very much for coming +and testifying. We appreciate it. + +We will adjourn now. We will adjourn until 9 in the morning. + +(Whereupon, at 6:20 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +_Tuesday, March 10, 1964_ + +TESTIMONY OF ROBERT HILL JACKSON, ARNOLD LOUIS ROWLAND, JAMES RICHARD +WORRELL, JR., AND AMOS LEE EUINS + +The President's Commission met at 9:15 a.m. on March 10, 1964 at 200 +Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. + +Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman +Cooper and Representative Gerald R. Ford, members. + +Also present were Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel; David W. Belin, +assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Arlen Specter, +assistant counsel; and Edward L. Wright, Chairman, House of Delegates, +American Bar Association. + + +TESTIMONY OF ROBERT HILL JACKSON + +The CHAIRMAN. All right, gentlemen, are we ready? Would you raise your +right hand and be sworn, Mr. Jackson? Do you solemnly swear to tell the +truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. JACKSON. I do. + +The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please. + +Mr. Specter will conduct the examination. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you state---- + +The CHAIRMAN. First, I will read a very small short statement for the +record. The purpose of this day's hearing is to hear the testimony +of Arnold Louis Rowland, Amos Lee Euins, James Richard Worrell, and +Robert H. Jackson, who were in the vicinity of the assassination scene +on November 22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask these witnesses +for facts concerning their knowledge of the assassination of President +Kennedy. + +You have seen a copy of this, have you, Mr. Jackson? + +Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. Very well, you may proceed, Mr. Specter. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? + +Mr. JACKSON. Robert Hill Jackson. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is your address, Mr. Jackson? + +Mr. JACKSON. 4030 Sperry. + +Mr. SPECTER. What city is that located in? + +Mr. JACKSON. Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long have you lived at that address, please? + +Mr. JACKSON. Since September of 1963. + +Mr. SPECTER. And of what State are you a native? + +Mr. JACKSON. I am a native of Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you lived in Dallas all your life? + +Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation at the present time? + +Mr. JACKSON. Staff photographer for the Dallas Times Herald. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been so employed? + +Mr. JACKSON. Since August of 1960. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline for us briefly---- + +The CHAIRMAN. 1950 or 1960? + +Mr. JACKSON. 1960. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline for us briefly your educational +background, please? + +Mr. JACKSON. I attended Highland Park High School and then Southern +Methodist University, where I studied for a business degree, and I did +not finish. I lack about 8 hours of finishing, of getting a degree. + +Mr. SPECTER. What year did you leave the university? + +Mr. JACKSON. 1957. + +Mr. SPECTER. How were you occupied between the time you left the +university and the time you started to work for the newspaper? + +Mr. JACKSON. I did some freelance photography work for a while, over +a year, until I went into the service on the 6 month's plan through +my National Guard unit, and I was a photographer there in the Army, +on-the-job training, and then after I was released from the Army I did +freelance work, I guess for about a year, until I got the job at the +Herald. + +Mr. SPECTER. How old are you at the present time? + +Mr. JACKSON. Twenty-nine. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your marital status? + +Mr. JACKSON. I am married. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have children? + +Mr. JACKSON. One child. One girl 15 months today. + +Mr. SPECTER. Going back to November 22, 1963, by whom were you employed +at that time? + +Mr. JACKSON. Dallas Times Herald. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was your assignment on that specific day? + +Mr. JACKSON. I was assigned to the motorcade to meet the President, +Love Field, and go to the Trade Mart and that was the extent of it, +cover the parade, I mean the motorcade and the speech. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you assigned to take pictures? + +Mr. JACKSON. To take pictures, yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you meet the President at Love Field? + +Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you take photographs for your newspaper at Love +Field? + +Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Describe briefly your activities at Love Field on the +morning of November 22, please. + +Mr. JACKSON. Well, we got there, I guess, 30, 40 minutes early. + +Mr. SPECTER. At about what time would that have been? + +Mr. JACKSON. I have to think to remember exactly what time, around 9, +I guess, 9 to 9:15, I believe. And I took pictures there. There were +other photographers from our paper there, our chief photographer. And +we just took shots of the crowd, and waited for the President to arrive. + +And then when he did arrive, our chief photographer left and went +directly to the Trade Mart and I got into the motorcade to ride to town. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know exactly which car you were in in the motorcade? + +Mr. JACKSON. We counted up, and it is either the seventh or eighth car. +We said eighth car from the President, from the lead car. + +Mr. SPECTER. When you say we counted up, whom do you mean? + +Mr. JACKSON. The photographers in the car. As we left Love Field, we +were trying to figure how far back we were and we all decided it was +the eighth car. + +Mr. SPECTER. Can you reconstruct that count for us which provided the +basis for your conclusion that you were in the seventh or eighth car. +For example, how many cars ahead of you was the President's car or the +Vice President's car, if you can recollect, please. + +Mr. JACKSON. Let me think a minute. I know there was a photographer's +car directly in front of us which I believe had some of the local +press. It was a convertible. Then in front were, I believe, two +or three cars carrying the press, the White House press, and then +President Johnson, I guess would be in the next car, and then the +President in the lead car, or the next car, and I believe there was +another car in the lead. + +Mr. SPECTER. So as you recollect the scene there was the lead and +immediately behind the lead car, whose car? + +Mr. JACKSON. The President's, I believe. + +Mr. SPECTER. And then immediately behind the President's whose car? + +Mr. JACKSON. The Vice President's. + +Mr. SPECTER. And immediately to the rear of the Vice President's car? + +Mr. JACKSON. Press vehicles and I was told it was the White House +press, two or three cars. + +Mr. SPECTER. And then there was one car filled with photographers? + +Mr. JACKSON. Directly in front of us. + +Mr. SPECTER. Between your car and the cars which you believe to have +been filled with White House newsmen? + +Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. Wasn't there a Secret Service car directly behind the +President's car? + +Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. Between it and the Vice President's car? + +Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir; that is right. + +Mr. SPECTER. Wasn't there a Secret Service car immediately behind the +Vice President's car, if you know? + +Mr. JACKSON. There must have been. That is what I can't recall is which +was which in there. I knew the White House press was in there but I +didn't know how many cars. I am sure there were Secret Service cars, +yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. As you were proceeding along in the motorcade, were you +within sight of the President's automobile? + +Mr. JACKSON. At times. When he was--when we could not get a clear view +of it because of the photographers in the car ahead of us who were +sitting up on the back of the seat just like we were, we did not have a +clear view of the car at all times. + +Mr. SPECTER. As you proceeded along approximately how far behind the +President's car were you, expressed either in cars, block lengths or in +any way that is convenient for you? + +Mr. JACKSON. Well, I would say approximately a block, average city +block, maybe closer at times. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Jackson, I show you a photograph which has been marked +heretofore as Commission Exhibit No. 347, and ask you to look at it for +a moment, and see if you can identify what that photograph depicts. + +Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir; this is the scene of the assassination, parade +route, Main and Houston, left on Elm. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, which street did the Presidential motorcade take +coming on to that scene which you have described as the assassination +scene. + +Mr. JACKSON. They were on Houston. + +Mr. SPECTER. And before Houston what street were they on? + +Mr. JACKSON. Main Street. + +Mr. SPECTER. What direction were they proceeding on Main Street? + +Mr. JACKSON. West. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now without reference to the photograph, will you tell us +what happened as the motorcade proceeded west on Main Street? + +Mr. JACKSON. Well, on Main, as we neared Houston Street everyone was +more or less in a relaxed state in our car, because we were near the +end of the route, I guess, nothing unusual happened on Main Street. + +The final block on Main, before we turned on Houston I was in the +process of unloading a camera and I was to toss it out of the car as we +turned right on Houston Street to one of our reporters. + +Mr. SPECTER. Had that been set up by prearrangement? + +Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. And that I did as we turned the corner, and +when--it was in an interval and as I threw it out the wind blew it, +caught it and blew it out into the street and our reporter chased +it out into the street and the photographers in our car, one of the +photographers, was a TV cameraman whom I do not recall his name, and +he was joking about the film being thrown out and he was shooting my +picture of throwing the film out. + +Mr. SPECTER. At this point could you tell us, to the best of your +recollection, precisely who was with you in the car at that time? + +Mr. JACKSON. Jim Underwood from KRLD-TV station, Tom Dillard, chief +photographer for the Dallas Morning News, and me, and then two newsreel +cameramen who I know by sight but I don't know their names. + +One is with WFAA which is the Dallas Morning News station, and I +believe the other was channel 11, I believe. + +Mr. SPECTER. Can you position those people in the automobile for us +with respect to where each was sitting? + +(At this point Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) + +Mr. JACKSON. Tom Dillard and Jim Underwood were in the front seat with +the driver. + +Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify who the driver was? + +Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. But he was a sixth individual separate and apart from the +five heretofore described? + +Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. And in the back seat were the two I know by +sight but I can't remember the names. + +And I was on the right side of the car. + +Mr. SPECTER. On the right side of which seat? + +Mr. JACKSON. Back seat, sitting up on the back of a seat. + +Mr. SPECTER. What kind of a car was it, sir? + +Mr. JACKSON. I believe it was a Chevrolet convertible. + +Mr. SPECTER. Top down? + +Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you carrying one camera or more than one camera? + +Mr. JACKSON. Two cameras. + +Mr. SPECTER. And was one camera loaded at the time you rounded the +corner of Main and Houston? + +Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir; and one was empty. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was it from the camera which was empty that you had taken +the roll of film which you have just described? + +Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. Will you now proceed to tell us what happened +as you rounded the corner of Main and Houston, please? + +Mr. JACKSON. Well, as our reporter chased the film out into the street, +we all looked back at him and were laughing, and it was approximately +that time that we heard the first shot, and we had already rounded the +corner, of course, when we heard the first shot. We were approximately +almost half a block on Houston Street. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you identify for me on Commission Exhibit 347, +precisely as possible, where your automobile was at the time you heard +the first shot? + +Mr. JACKSON. Approximately right here, I would say the midpoint of this +building. Approximately where we heard the first report. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you mark in a black "X" on 347 the spot where +your car was at the time you heard the first shot? + +Mr. JACKSON. Right here approximately. And as we heard the first shot, +I believe it was Tom Dillard from Dallas News who made some remark as +to that sounding like a firecracker, and it could have been somebody +else who said that. But someone else did speak up and make that comment +and before he actually finished the sentence we heard the other two +shots. Then we realized or we thought that it was gunfire, and then +we could not at that point see the President's car. We were still +moving slowly, and after the third shot the second two shots seemed +much closer together than the first shot, than they were to the first +shot. Then after the last shot, I guess all of us were just looking all +around and I just looked straight up ahead of me which would have been +looking at the School Book Depository and I noticed two Negro men in a +window straining to see directly above them, and my eyes followed right +on up to the window above them and I saw the rifle or what looked like +a rifle approximately half of the weapon, I guess I saw, and just as I +looked at it, it was drawn fairly slowly back into the building, and I +saw no one in the window with it. + +I didn't even see a form in the window. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next? + +Mr. JACKSON. I said "There is the gun," or it came from that window. I +tried to point it out. But by the time the other people looked up, of +course, it was gone, and about that time we were beginning to turn the +corner. + +Mr. SPECTER. Which corner were you beginning to turn? + +Mr. JACKSON. Houston onto Elm. + +Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a photograph marked as Commission Exhibit +No. 348 and ask you if you can identify what that depicts? + +Mr. JACKSON. This is the School Book Depository. This is the window the +two colored men were looking out of. This is the window where the rifle +was. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark the window where the rifle was with an "A" +and would you please mark the window where you have identified the men +below with a "B." + +(Witness marking.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Referring to your mark of "A," the photograph will show +that you have marked the window on the sixth floor with the mark being +placed on the window on the westerly half of the first double window. + +Mr. JACKSON. I am sorry. This window here on the very end was +the window where the weapon was. I am sorry, I just marked the +double--actually this is the rifle window right here. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you take the black pencil again and draw an +arrow--before you start to mark, hear the rest of the question--as +precisely as you can to the exact spot where you saw what you have +described as the rifle. + +(Witness marking.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Was the window you have just marked as being the spot from +which the rifle protruded, open when you looked up? + +Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your best recollection as to how far open it was +at that time? + +Mr. JACKSON. I would say that it was open like that window there, +halfway. + +Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a window on the sixth floor of the westernmost +portion of the building open halfway as you have described it. + +My last comment, as to the description of your last window, is only for +the purpose of what you have said in identifying a window to show how +far open the window was. + +Mr. JACKSON. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Which you heretofore marked with an arrow, correct? + +Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. + +Also in that window I could see boxes, corrugated boxes on the left +portion which would be my left, of the window, of the open window. + +Mr. SPECTER. How many boxes could you see? + +Mr. JACKSON. I couldn't tell. It just seemed like a stack of boxes. + +Mr. SPECTER. How high were the boxes stacked? + +Mr. JACKSON. Maybe two is all I saw. They were stacked, I believe they +were as high as the window was open, halfway up the window. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your best recollection of the size of those boxes +which you say you saw? + +Mr. JACKSON. Maybe like that, that wide. + +Mr. SPECTER. Indicating approximately 3 feet wide? + +Mr. JACKSON. Three feet or a little less maybe. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the height of those boxes? + +Mr. JACKSON. I would say high enough to hide a man. Let's say, between +5 and 6 feet high, I would say to the best of my recollection. From the +angle I was looking at it, I would say they were 5 feet high at least. + +Mr. SPECTER. That is each box would be 5 feet high? + +Mr. JACKSON. No; the stack, the stacked boxes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Could you see how many boxes were stacked up to reach a +total height of 5 to 6 feet? + +Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you able to see anyone in front of those boxes? + +Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Whether or not you could identify anyone, could you see +even the form or outline of the man? + +Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. It looked to me like the man was over to the side +of the window because the rifle was at quite an angle to me. + +Mr. SPECTER. Which side of the window? + +Mr. JACKSON. Well, from the position of the rifle it would be the +corner of the building, the east. It would be to the right of the +window from my view. + +Mr. SPECTER. Which direction was the rifle pointing? + +Mr. JACKSON. West. To my left. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was it pointing in a straight westerly direction or was it +pointing at an angle from the building. + +Mr. JACKSON. It was at an angle from the building. I am not--well, +let's see--well, it wouldn't be directly west. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was the general line of direction of the pointing of +the rifle? + +Mr. JACKSON. Well, directly down the street. + +Mr. SPECTER. And by down the street you are pointing out what street? + +Mr. JACKSON. Down Elm Street toward the triple, toward the underpass. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was it pointed as you have indicated at the angle which +Elm Street traverses heading toward the triple underpass? + +Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. And the rifle was pointing slightly down. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you at any time in this sequence observe the +President's automobile? + +Mr. JACKSON. As we turned the corner--or we stopped where the +intersection, actually we stopped before we began to turn left onto Elm +Street, or rather I would say we hesitated and we were all looking down +towards the President's car and I could see two cars going under the +underpass. I barely saw the President's car. I would say just the rear +end of it as it disappeared under the underpass. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was that the only time you saw the President's car from +the time you made a right-hand turn off of Main Street onto Houston +Street? + +Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the time span between the +first shot you heard and the last shot you heard? + +Mr. JACKSON. I would say 5 to 8 seconds. + +Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us a breakdown between the shots which you +heard as to how many seconds elapsed between each one? + +Mr. JACKSON. I would say to me it seemed like 3 or 4 seconds between +the first and the second, and between the second and third, well, I +guess 2 seconds, they were very close together. It could have been more +time between the first and second. I really can't be sure. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure you heard three shots? + +Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you mark on the overhead shot, which is Exhibit +347, with a "Y" as precisely as you can the position of your automobile +at the time you heard the second shot? + +Mr. JACKSON. With a "Y"? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes, please. + +(Witness marking.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you now mark on the same exhibit the precise +position of your car as closely as you can recollect it when you heard +the third shot with a letter "Z"? + +(Witness marking.) + +Mr. SPECTER. When, in relation to the timing of the shots, which +you have described, did you first look toward the Texas School Book +Depository Building? + +Mr. JACKSON. It couldn't have been more than 3 seconds before I looked +at that window. + +Mr. SPECTER. Three seconds from what point in time? + +Mr. JACKSON. From the last shot. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you say from the last shot? + +Mr. JACKSON. From the last shot, yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your best recollection or estimate of the speed +of your automobile as you were proceeding in a generally northerly +direction on Houston Street at the time of the shooting? + +Mr. JACKSON. I would say not over 15 miles an hour. + +Mr. SPECTER. What would your best estimate be as to the minimum speed? + +Mr. JACKSON. Ten, I would say. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where, in the window were the two Negro men, whom you have +described? + +Mr. JACKSON. Well, there was one in each of those double windows. + +Mr. SPECTER. On which floor was that? + +Mr. JACKSON. The fifth floor. + +Mr. SPECTER. And will you place an arrow where you saw each of those +men, please? + +Mr. JACKSON. Each one of them? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes. + +(Witness marking.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any reaction from either or both of those +two men when you saw them? + +Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. Just looking up. + +Mr. SPECTER. Could you see their faces reasonably clearly to observe +that they were looking up. + +Mr. JACKSON. I could tell they were looking up because they were +leaning way out just like that. I couldn't see their faces very well at +all. + +Mr. SPECTER. The witness has leaned forward and turned his head to +the right and looking upward as he sits in the witness chair, may the +record show. + +Representative FORD. Did they both turn the same way as you have +indicated in answer to Mr. Specter's question? + +Mr. JACKSON. To the best of my recollection one man looked up to his +right and the other man looked up like this to his left, one in each +window. + +Representative FORD. Can you identify which to his right and which to +his left? + +Mr. JACKSON. I believe the one on the right window, my right, was +looking to his right. The one on the west window, the one to my left +was looking to his left. I believe I am right on that but I may not +be because I just looked at them for a fraction of a second, I just +followed them up. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the distance which separated +you from those two men at the time you observed them? + +Mr. JACKSON. I am not very good at distances. I was about the middle of +the block, I guess. I would say around a hundred yards, I guess. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you see those two men before or after you observed the +rifle? + +Mr. JACKSON. Before. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of how many inches of the rifle +that you observed? + +Mr. JACKSON. I saw the barrel and about half--well, I did not see a +telescopic sight, but I did see part of the stock, so I guess maybe 8 +or 10 inches of the stock maybe. I did see part of the stock, I did not +see the sight. + +Mr. SPECTER. Eight or ten inches of the stock, and how much of the +barrel would you estimate? + +Mr. JACKSON. I guess possibly a foot. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anyone's hands on the rifle? + +Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, as best as you can recollect it, what exact words did +you state at or about the time you made the observation of the rifle, +if any? + +Mr. JACKSON. I said, "There is the gun" and somebody said "Where?" And +I said, "It came from that window" and I pointed to that window. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect who it was who said "Where?" + +Mr. JACKSON. Somebody in the car, I don't recall who. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did anybody else in the car say anything else at that time? + +Mr. JACKSON. Nothing that I could remember. I am sure they were all +talking. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you say anything else at about that time? + +Mr. JACKSON. If I did, I don't remember. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did anyone in the automobile state that he, too, had seen +the rifle from the window? + +Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a conversation with all of the men in the car +immediately after the incident? + +Mr. JACKSON. No, sir; because as, I guess after the third shot, I do +recall the driver speeding up, and we hesitated at the corner before +turning left, and three of the occupants of the car got out, jumped out. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who were those three? + +Mr. JACKSON. That was Underwood, Jim Underwood, Tom Dillard and one of +the TV cameramen. The WHAA channel 8 cameraman and I were left in the +back seat. We couldn't make up our minds. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there an individual in the car by the name of Mr. +Couch, to your knowledge? + +Mr. JACKSON. Couch? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JACKSON. I don't know him. + +Mr. SPECTER. Malcolm Couch? + +Mr. JACKSON. The name is familiar. I might state what I did see as we +did hesitate there, at the corner, I don't recall whether this was +before the other three fellows got out of the car or not, I believe we +were still all in the car, as we observed these other things, but in +a fleeting glance as I saw the cars go under the underpass, I did see +people running. I saw a motorcycle policeman jump off his motorcycle, +in fact, he just hit the curb and just let it fall, and he went down on +his knees on the grass, on the lawn of that parkway. + +I did see a family covering up their child, and I just saw a state of +confusion, people running, and that is about all I saw at that point of +the scene. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Jackson, at the time you heard the first shot, did you +have any reaction or impression from the sound itself as to the source +of the shot, point of origin? + +Mr. JACKSON. No, sir; I didn't. It did sound like it came from ahead of +us or from that general vicinity but I could not tell whether it was +high up or on the ground. + +Mr. SPECTER. When you say that general vicinity, what vicinity did you +mean? + +Mr. JACKSON. We were sure it came from ahead of us which would be in a +northerly direction, northwesterly direction. It did sound as though it +came from somewhere around the head of the motorcade. + +Mr. SPECTER. From the second shot, did you have any reaction or +impression as to the source of this shot? + +Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. Through all three shots, I could just tell that +it was ahead of me and not behind me, that is it. + +Mr. SPECTER. And the same impression then prevailed through the third +shot as well. + +Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. To me it never sounded like it was high or low. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you had occasion since this incident to relate the +factual sequences, your observations and what you heard? Have you had +occasion to tell anybody about what you saw and heard as you have +described it to us? + +Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Has there been any variation in your recollection or +impressions about your observations on these occasions? + +Mr. JACKSON. Not to my knowledge. The other times were not as thorough +as this. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, those are all of the questions which I +have, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, any questions you would like to ask Mr. +Jackson? + +Representative FORD. Mr. Jackson, when and by whom were you questioned +or interrogated subsequent to the event? I was thinking of the FBI, the +Secret Service, or any investigative organization. + +Mr. JACKSON. You say when, how soon afterwards? + +Representative FORD. Right. + +Mr. JACKSON. I would say within 2 days afterwards, let's see, the next +day was the first day. + +Representative FORD. Saturday November 23? + +Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir; I believe it was the first time. + +Representative FORD. Who, by name, if you can, but if not by what +organization? + +Mr. JACKSON. The FBI called me, I believe it was Friday evening, and I +believe I did give some information on the phone Friday night. + +Representative FORD. Was that followed up---- + +Mr. JACKSON. And they came and saw me in the office, I believe on +Saturday. + +Representative FORD. How did they happen to contact you? Had you made a +statement publicly before? + +Mr. JACKSON. Our newspaper ran an article by me or I got a byline on it +stating this in general which I have stated today. + +Representative FORD. Following this initial contact have you made +subsequent statements to various organizations or any organization? + +Mr. JACKSON. I made statements to the Secret Service also. Other than +that there was none other. + +Representative FORD. How good are your eyes, do you wear glasses? + +Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. + +Representative FORD. Have you had an eye examination recently or when +was the last examination? + +Mr. JACKSON. I had a physical when I reenlisted in the National Guard, +let's see, that was, I believe, about a year and a half ago, I had that +physical and I had 20-20 vision. + +Representative FORD. 20-20 vision? + +Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. You just indicated you were in the Texas National +Guard? + +Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. How long have you been in the Texas National Guard? + +Mr. JACKSON. I joined in October 1958. + +Representative FORD. And you have been in continuously since? + +Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. So you are familiar with guns in general? + +Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. So you would readily identify, if you saw it, a +rifle? + +Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. Did any others in the automobile in which you were +riding recollect as far as you know, hearing you say "There is the gun." + +Mr. JACKSON. I don't know whether they would remember it or not. + +Representative FORD. Have you ever talked with any others in the car? + +Mr. JACKSON. I have never sat down and talked with them about the +events, no, sir. I have seen them, of course, several times but I have +never discussed it with them. + +Representative FORD. You never discussed what you said or what they +said? + +Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. I guess the one man I have discussed it more +with than anybody else was Tom Dillard, the chief photographer for the +Dallas News, and we recalled to each other the scene but we really +never went into any detail or as to what each one of us said either. + +Representative FORD. At the time you were in the car, after it had +turned from Main onto Houston, was there any noise from the crowd on +either side of the street, Houston Street? + +Mr. JACKSON. There was very little crowd on Houston, as I recall. On +Houston itself. The crowd--I mean as compared to Main Street, to the +other end of town and down through Main. The crowd thinned out as we +got down near the intersection of Main and Houston, and there were a +lot less people but I couldn't make an estimate of how many. + +Representative FORD. There was no noise from the crowd at that point? + +Mr. JACKSON. No, sir; no noise, I would say. + +Representative FORD. At the time you heard the first shot, what was +your position in the car? Were you standing or sitting? + +Mr. JACKSON. I was sitting on the back of the seat, on the right-hand +side of the back seat, sitting up. + +Representative FORD. Did you have your camera in your hand? + +Mr. JACKSON. Yes; I had one camera around my neck and the camera I +had just emptied, it was in my lap. I had thrown my film out to this +reporter over the side of the car as we rounded the corner and I still +had the camera lying in my lap, and the other one was around my neck. + +Representative FORD. Was this the position you were in at the time you +heard the first shot? + +Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. After the third shot and as the car hesitated, +did you see any law enforcement officials move in any concentrated or +concerted direction? + +Mr. JACKSON. I saw at least one, there may have been more, run up the +School Depository steps, toward the door. That is one of the things I +saw in this confusion. + +Representative FORD. This was separate from the policeman on the +motorcycle? + +Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. Yes. I should have said that a while ago. There +was a policeman who moved toward the door of the Depository. But to my +best knowledge there was no concentrated movement toward any one spot. +It looked like general confusion to me, and of course, I stayed in the +car. As we did turn the corner our driver speeded up and we went by the +scene pretty fast and I do recall this Negro family covering up their +child on the grass, and I, as we passed them, they were just getting up +and he had the child in his arms and the child looked limp and I didn't +know whether the child was shot or not. But then we were moving fast +and went on under the underpass. + +Representative FORD. That is all, Mr. Chairman. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Wright, do you have any questions? + +Mr. WRIGHT. No, Mr. Chief Justice, I passed a question on. + +Mr. SPECTER. I have just one additional question, and that is whether +Mr. Jackson had any occasion to see anybody leave the scene of the +Texas School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. That is all, Your Honor. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Jackson, thank you very much for coming. + +Mr. JACKSON. Thank you. + +The CHAIRMAN. We appreciate it. + +Who is next? + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Rowland. + +The CHAIRMAN. Would you raise your right hand and be sworn, please. + +Do you solemnly swear the testimony given before this Commission will +be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you +God? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Specter will conduct the examination. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please, but +before you do, Mr. Chief Justice, is it your practice to read that +statement to the witness? + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes. I will read a short statement to you for the purpose +of the hearing. + +The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Arnold Louis +Rowland, Amos Lee Euins, James Richard Worrell, and Robert H. Jackson, +who were in the vicinity of the assassination scene on November +22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask these witnesses for facts +concerning their knowledge of the assassination of President Kennedy. + +A copy of that statement was furnished to you, was it not? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No. + +The CHAIRMAN. You didn't see it. You have one before you. Very well. + + +TESTIMONY OF ARNOLD LOUIS ROWLAND + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you please state your full name for the record, Mr. +Rowland? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Arnold Louis Rowland. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your address? + +Mr. ROWLAND. 1131 Aphinney. + +Mr. SPECTER. And in what city do you reside? + +Mr. ROWLAND. This is Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long have you resided in Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. ROWLAND. About 9 months at present. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where did you live before coming to Dallas? + +Mr. ROWLAND. In Salem, Oreg. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in Salem, Oreg. + +Mr. ROWLAND. About 3 months. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where did you live before moving to Salem, Oreg. + +Mr. ROWLAND. Dallas. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in Dallas at that time? + +Mr. ROWLAND. About 4 years. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where were you born? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Corpus Christi, Tex. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you lived in Texas most of your life? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Most of my life. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your age at the present time, Mr. Rowland? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Eighteen. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is your exact date of birth, please? + +Mr. ROWLAND. April 29, 1945. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your marital status. + +Mr. ROWLAND. Married. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you any children? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been married? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Ten months. + +Mr. SPECTER. What education have you had, sir? + +Mr. ROWLAND. High school. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you attending high school at the present time? + +Mr. ROWLAND. I have finished, and fixing to go to college. + +Mr. SPECTER. When did you graduate from high school? + +Mr. ROWLAND. June 1963. + +Mr. SPECTER. How have you been occupied or employed since June of 1963? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Worked in Oregon at three different jobs. Exchange Lumber +Co. as a shipping clerk, Meier Frank Co. as a clothes salesman, and +part time at West Foods. The business was mushroom processing. That was +during the summer. + +Upon my return to Dallas, I worked part time, while doing some +postgraduate work, at the Pizza Inn. At present I am working with the +P. F. Collier Co. + +Mr. SPECTER. What sort of work are you doing with P. F. Collier? + +Mr. ROWLAND. That is promotional advertising. + +Mr. SPECTER. What college are you attending, if any, at the present +time? + +Mr. ROWLAND. None at the present. + +Mr. SPECTER. What postgraduate work had you been doing that you just +mentioned? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Studies in math and science. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where were you studying these courses? + +Mr. ROWLAND. This was a high school in Dallas as advanced courses. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you been accepted in any college? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; several. Texas A. & M., Rice, SMU, Arlington. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have plans to attend one of those colleges? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Which one do you plan to enter? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Preferably Rice. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an entry date set? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No; I am trying for a scholarship for it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you been in the military service? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No; I haven't. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is the general condition of your health. + +Mr. ROWLAND. Good. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is the condition of your eyesight? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Very good. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you wear glasses at any time? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. When, most recently, have you had an eye test, if at all? + +Mr. ROWLAND. About 7 months ago. + +Mr. SPECTER. And you know the results of that test? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Very good vision. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what classification the doctor placed on it? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No; I don't remember it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect if it was 20-20? + +Mr. ROWLAND. He said it was much better than that. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what doctor examined your eyes? + +Mr. ROWLAND. This was the firm of doctors Finn and Finn. + +Mr. SPECTER. F-i-n-n and F-i-n-n? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where are they located? + +Mr. ROWLAND. The Fidelity Union Life Building in Dallas. + +Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long ago was that examination? + +Mr. ROWLAND. About 6 months. + +Mr. SPECTER. Going to the day of November 22, 1963, how were you +occupied at that time, Mr. Rowland? + +Mr. ROWLAND. I was attending classes in school part of the day, working +part time as a pizzamaker in Pizza Inn. + +Mr. SPECTER. Had you regularly scheduled classes on the morning of +November 22, 1963? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. I had classes up until 11. I just had two classes on +Friday. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what school were you attending at that time? + +Mr. ROWLAND. W. H. Adamson High. + +Mr. SPECTER. How far is that from the intersection of Houston and Elm +Streets in Dallas, approximately? + +Mr. ROWLAND. It must have been about a mile and a half. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe for the Commission what you did on that +morning, in a general way, up until approximately noon time? + +Mr. ROWLAND. I went to my classes. My wife got out of school early. We +went to town. I had to go to work at 4, so we were going downtown to do +some shopping. We went early so we could see the President's motorcade. + +Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive in town? + +Mr. ROWLAND. We rode a bus from the school. We got to town +approximately a quarter to 12. + +Mr. SPECTER. What school was your wife attending at that time? + +Mr. ROWLAND. The same: Adamson. + +Mr. SPECTER. What time did her classes end? + +Mr. ROWLAND. She got out at 11 also. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do from the time you arrived in town at +approximately a quarter of 12 for the next 15 minutes? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Trying to find a good vantage point. We walked about five +or six blocks. + +Mr. SPECTER. From where did you walk? + +Mr. ROWLAND. We got off at the junction, at the intersection of Main +and Houston, walked up toward Ervay, about four blocks, I would say +up to Akard. We walked from Houston to Akard on Main, and then we +walked back down Commerce and then over to the sheriffs or the county +courthouse, there was a lesser crowd there. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is that the reason you selected the spot you ultimately +picked to watch the parade? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, there was no one in front of us, no one around that +area. + +Mr. SPECTER. I am going to show you a photograph, Mr. Rowland, which +has already been identified as Commission Exhibit No. 347 and first ask +you if you can identify what scene this represents. + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I can. + +Mr. SPECTER. What scene is that? + +Mr. ROWLAND. This is the triple underpass, this is the scene where the +President was assassinated. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is this plaza called in Dallas? + +Mr. ROWLAND. I don't know exactly. It is just known as the triple +underpass. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is it known as Dealey Plaza to your knowledge? + +Mr. ROWLAND. I have never heard it called that. + +Mr. SPECTER. Can you point with your finger for me at the spot where +you were standing as best you can recollect it? + +Mr. ROWLAND. We were about in this area on this sidewalk of this +building. I say approximately two-thirds of the distance between here +and here in this direction. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. + +I have a substitute photograph for you to mark. I am now showing you +an identical scene on a photograph which has been heretofore marked as +Commission Exhibit No. 354. Will you mark with an arrow as closely as +possible to the point where you were standing? + +Mr. ROWLAND. There is an elevator shaft below this second window on +that building that comes through a sidewalk. I was about 5 feet to the +left of it, about the third window or right here in this area. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark that a little more heavily, please? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +(Witness marking.) + +Mr. SPECTER. What time were you so positioned? + +Mr. ROWLAND. We got there about 5 after 12. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did your position move at any time during the course of +the next half hour? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. We did move to this corner, there were too many +people on this corner. + +Mr. SPECTER. You are indicating back to the corner of Houston and Main? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. Houston and Main there were too many crowds so we +came back to this street here, Commerce is that right; no, Elm and +Main. We came back to Elm and Main and figured it wouldn't be a very +good vantage point because of the crowd there so we went back to where +we were. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where were you standing at the time the President's +motorcade passed by you? + +Mr. ROWLAND. At that position. + +(Witness marking.) + +Mr. SPECTER. The position you have marked with a "V," inverted "V." + +Will you mark with the letter "A" the point to which you had moved when +you described it as being at Commerce which you corrected to Elm and +Houston. + +Mr. ROWLAND. It was this corner. + +(Witness marking.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Approximately what time did you move to the position you +have marked "A"? + +Mr. ROWLAND. About 10 after 12. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long did you stay at position "A"? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Momentarily, just long enough to look, maybe a minute. + +Mr. SPECTER. To look at what? + +Mr. ROWLAND. To look at the position itself. There was too much of a +crowd in that area. When the President would come by they would be +pushing or rushing in that area and it would be too crowded for us. + +Mr. SPECTER. At that point you did what? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Then we went back to where we were. + +Mr. SPECTER. To position "V"? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, and we stayed there for a minute or so, walked to the +corner of Main and Houston. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mark Main and Houston with the letter "B," if you would, +where you moved next. + +(Witness marking.) + +Mr. ROWLAND. Stayed there momentarily, less than a minute. There was +quite a crowd there and we went back to where we were, our original +position. + +Mr. SPECTER. To position "V"? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. What time would you say you got back to your position "V"? + +Mr. ROWLAND. We got back there 14 after, I noticed the time on my +watch, and the Hertz time clock I noticed was about a minute later. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where was the Hertz time clock located? + +Mr. ROWLAND. That was on top of the school depository building. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was your watch synchronized with the Hertz up on top. + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I always set it by the same clock whenever I pass it. +I pass it coming into town and I set my watch at that time. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you observe at any time the building which is +depicted in Commission Exhibit No. 348? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. We were looking around it, my wife and I, amongst the +crowd, the different areas, making note of the policemen on top of the +underpass itself, in that area, and the security precautions that were +being taken. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chairman, I would like to show the witness the same +photograph, but a different picture on an exhibit marked Commission +Exhibit No. 356. + +Mr. Rowland, I show you a picture marked Commission Exhibit No. 356 and +ask you if you can identify what that represents? + +Mr. ROWLAND. That is Houston, Elm running in front of this building. +This is the school book depository building. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you familiar with that building prior to November 22, +1963? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I have been in there on occasion. + +Mr. SPECTER. You have been in the building? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, to purchase books. + +Mr. SPECTER. When were you in the building most recently prior to +November 22, 1963? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Within the first week of November. This was to buy a +physics notebook. + +Mr. SPECTER. What part of the building were you in at that time? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Just inside the door of the main lobby. + +Mr. SPECTER. On the first floor? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Had you ever had occasion at any time to be on any floor +other than the first floor? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. While you were standing on Houston Street in the various +positions which you have described, did you have occasion at any time +to observe the Texas School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. When we returned to position "V" we stayed there, +we began looking around. My wife and I were discussing the security +precautions that were taken in view of the event when Mr. Stevenson was +there. + +Mr. SPECTER. Before you go on, let me ask you at which time was this on +your return to position "V"? + +Mr. ROWLAND. This was 12:15. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right; proceed to tell us what you saw and heard at +about that time? + +Mr. ROWLAND. We were discussing, as I stated, the different security +precautions, I mean it was a very important person who was coming +and we were aware of the policemen around everywhere, and especially +in positions where they would be able to watch crowds. We talked +momentarily of the incidents with Mr. Stevenson, and the one before +that with Mr. Johnson, and this being in mind we were more or less +security conscious. We looked and at that time I noticed on the sixth +floor of the building that there was a man back from the window, not +hanging out the window. + +He was standing and holding a rifle. This appeared to me to be a fairly +high-powered rifle because of the scope and the relative proportion of +the scope to the rifle, you can tell about what type of rifle it is. +You can tell it isn't a .22, you know, and we thought momentarily that +maybe we should tell someone but then the thought came to us that it is +a security agent. + +We had seen in the movies before where they have security men up in +windows and places like that with rifles to watch the crowds, and we +brushed it aside as that, at that time, and thought nothing else about +it until after the event happened. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, by referring to the photograph on this Commission +Exhibit No. 356, will you point to the window where you observed this +man? + +Mr. ROWLAND. This was very odd. There were--this picture was not taken +immediately after that, I don't think, because there were several +windows, there are pairs of windows, and there were several pairs where +both windows were open fully and in each pair there was one or more +persons hanging out the window. + +Yet this was on the west corner of the building, the sixth floor, the +first floor--second floor down from the top, the first was the arched, +the larger windows, not the arch, but the larger windows, and this was +the only pair of windows where both windows were completely open and no +one was hanging out the windows, or next to the window. + +It was this pair of windows here at that time. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. + +Will you mark that pair of windows with a circle? + +(Witness marking.) + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your best recollection as to how far each of those +windows were open? + +Mr. ROWLAND. To the fullest extent that they could be opened. + +Mr. SPECTER. What extent would that be? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Being as I looked half frame windows, that would be +halfway of the entire length of the window. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is that the approximate status of those windows depicted +here in Exhibit 356? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. In which of those double windows did you see the man and +rifle? + +Mr. ROWLAND. It was through the window to my right. + +Mr. SPECTER. Draw an arrow right into that window with the same black +pencil please. + +(Witness marking.) + +Mr. SPECTER. How much, if any, or all of that rifle could you see? + +Mr. ROWLAND. All of it. + +Mr. SPECTER. You could see from the base of the stock down to the tip +of the end of the rifle? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. The barrel of the rifle? + +The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, will you excuse me for just a few +minutes to run across the street to my office. You conduct during my +absence. + +Representative FORD. Will you proceed, Mr. Specter? + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the distance between where +you were standing and the man holding the rifle whom you have just +described? + +(The Chief Justice left the hearing room.) + +Mr. ROWLAND. 150 feet approximately, very possibly more. I don't know +for sure. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you very good at judging distances of that sort? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Fairly good. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you had any experience or practice at judging such +distances? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. Even in using the method in physics or, you know, +elementary physics of looking at a position in two different views, you +can tell its distance. I did that quite frequently. And the best I can +recollect it was within 150 to 175 feet. + +Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the rifle with any more particularity +than you already have? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No. In proportion to the scope it appeared to me to be a +.30-odd size 6, a deer rifle with a fairly large or powerful scope. + +Mr. SPECTER. When you say, .30-odd-6, exactly what did you mean by that? + +Mr. ROWLAND. That is a rifle that is used quite frequently for deer +hunting. It is an import. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you own any rifles? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No; my stepfather does. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever gone hunting deer with such a rifle? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I have. + +Mr. SPECTER. And is that a .30-odd-6 rifle that you have hunted deer +with? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is that a popular size of rifle in the Dallas, Tex., area? + +Mr. ROWLAND. I don't know about Dallas. I do know in Oregon it is one +of the most popular for deer hunting. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was the rifle which you observed similar to, or perhaps +identical with, .30-odd rifles which you have seen before? + +Mr. ROWLAND. The best I could tell it was of that size. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you seen such .30-odd rifles before at close range +which had telescopic sights? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; one my stepfather has has a very powerful scope on it. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did this rifle appear similar to the one your +stepfather owned? + +Mr. ROWLAND. From my distance, I would say very similar or of similar +manufacture. + +Mr. SPECTER. In what manner was the rifle being held by the man whom +you observed? + +Mr. ROWLAND. The way he was standing it would have been in a position +such as port arms in military terms. + +Mr. SPECTER. When you say port arms you have positioned your left hand +with the left elbow of your hand being about level with your shoulder +and your right hand---- + +Mr. ROWLAND. Not quite level with my shoulder, and the right hand being +lower on the trigger of the stock. + +Mr. SPECTER. So the waist of the imaginary rifle you would be holding +would cross your body at about a 45-degree angle. + +Mr. ROWLAND. That is correct. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long was the rifle held in that position? + +Mr. ROWLAND. During the entire time that I saw him there. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him hold it in any other position? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No, I didn't. + +Mr. SPECTER. For example, was he standing at any time in a parade-rest +position? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No; not to my knowledge. + +Mr. SPECTER. Describe, as best you can, the appearance of the +individual whom you saw? + +Mr. ROWLAND. He was rather slender in proportion to his size. I +couldn't tell for sure whether he was tall and maybe, you know heavy, +say 200 pounds, but tall whether he would be and slender or whether he +was medium and slender, but in proportion to his size his build was +slender. + +Mr. SPECTER. Could you give us an estimate on his height? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No; I couldn't. That is why I said I can't state what +height he would be. He was just slender in build in proportion with his +width. This is something I find myself doing all the time, comparing +things in perspective. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was he a white man or a Negro or what? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Seemed, well, I can't state definitely from my position +because it was more or less not fully light or bright in the room. He +appeared to be fair complexioned, not fair, but light complexioned, but +dark hair. + +Mr. SPECTER. What race was he then? + +Mr. ROWLAND. I would say either a light Latin or a Caucasian. + +Mr. SPECTER. And were you able to observe any characteristics of his +hair? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No; except that it was dark, probably black. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to observe whether he had a full head of +hair or any characteristic as to quantity of hair? + +Mr. ROWLAND. It didn't appear as if he had a receding hairline but I +know he didn't have it hanging on his shoulders. Probably a close cut +from--you know it appeared to me it was either well-combed or close cut. + +Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you observe as to the clothes he +was wearing? + +Mr. ROWLAND. He had on a light shirt, a very light-colored shirt, white +or a light blue or a color such as that. This was open at the collar. +I think it was unbuttoned about halfway, and then he had a regular +T-shirt, a polo shirt under this, at least this is what it appeared to +be. He had on dark slacks or blue jeans, I couldn't tell from that. I +didn't see but a small portion. + +Mr. SPECTER. You say you only saw a small portion of what? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Of his pants from his waist down. + +Mr. SPECTER. Which half of the window was open, the bottom half or the +top half? + +Mr. ROWLAND. It was the bottom half. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how much, if any, of his body was obscured by the +window frame from that point down to the floor? + +Mr. ROWLAND. From where I was standing I could see from his head to +about 6 inches below his waist, below his belt. + +Mr. SPECTER. Could you see as far as his knees? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is your best recollection as to how close to the +window he was standing? + +Mr. ROWLAND. He wasn't next to the window, but he wasn't very far back. +I would say 3 to 5 feet back from the window. + +Mr. SPECTER. How much of the rifle was separated from your line of +vision by the window? + +Mr. ROWLAND. The entire rifle was in my view. + +Mr. SPECTER. In the open part of the window? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how much of his body, if any, was in the open view +where there was no window between your eyes and the object of his body? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Approximately two-thirds of his body just below his waist. + +Mr. SPECTER. Up to what point? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Mid point between the waist and the knees, this is again +in my proportion to his height that I make that judgment. + +Mr. SPECTER. So from the waist, some point between his knees and his +waist, you started to see him clear in the window? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And from that point how far up his body were you able to +see without any obstruction of a window between you and him? + +Mr. ROWLAND. To the top of his head. There was some space on top of +that where I could see the wall behind him. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the space between the top of +his head and the open window at the perspective you were observing? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Two and a half, three feet, something on that--that is +something very hard to ascertain. That would just be an estimation on +my part. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else you observed about his appearance +or his clothing or the rifle which you haven't already told us about? + +Representative FORD. Was he facing toward you directly? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Representative FORD. In other words, did you get a full view of his +face and his chest and the front of him? + +Mr. ROWLAND. He appeared to me as though he were looking out the window +and watching the crowd in particular. + +Representative FORD. Excuse me, go ahead. + +Mr. ROWLAND. That is all right. + +Representative FORD. Was he looking toward the corner of Houston and +Main? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No; I would say he was looking in the area or the general +vicinity of where I was. + +Representative FORD. And you were on the sidewalk on Houston in front +of the building that you have indicated? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. Now, I can't--here again I wasn't close enough to +see his eyes but from the position of his head he was looking in that +general area. It could have been that maybe he was--his eyes were a +little bit off perspective and he was watching that corner, I don't +know. + +Representative FORD. In what position did you say his hands were on the +rifle? + +Mr. ROWLAND. One hand was at what is called the gun stock of the rifle, +just above the trigger, it was around the rifle. The other was at the +other end of the rifle about 4 inches below the end of the stock. + +Representative FORD. Was the rifle held above his waist? + +Mr. ROWLAND. The majority of it was, just a small portion of butt below +his waist. + +Representative FORD. The butt or the end of the rifle, the barrel end? + +Mr. ROWLAND. The butt, the stock end, was below his waist. The barrel +being pointed in the air toward the ceiling or the wall next to him. + +Representative FORD. I see. The stock was down and the barrel was up. + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to form any opinion as to the age of that +man? + +Mr. ROWLAND. This is again just my estimation. He was--I think I +remember telling my wife that he appeared in his early thirties. This +could be obscured because of the distance, I mean. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to form any opinion as to the weight of +the man in addition to the line of proportion which you have already +described? + +Mr. ROWLAND. I would say about 140 to 150 pounds. + +Representative FORD. When did you tell your wife you thought he was in +his thirties? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Right after I noticed the man, I brought him to my wife's +attention, and she was looking at something else at that time, we +looked at that, and when we both looked back she wanted to see also, +and he was gone from our vision. + +Representative FORD. So she never saw him? + +Mr. ROWLAND. My wife never saw him. + +Representative FORD. Did you say at that time how old he was or how old +you thought he was? + +Mr. ROWLAND. I think I remarked to my wife that he appeared in his +thirties, early thirties. + +Mr. SPECTER. When, after you first observed him did you have a +conversation about him with your wife? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Right afterwards. There was--just before I observed him +there was a police motorcycle parked just on the street, not in front +of us, just a little past us, and the radio was on it giving the +details of the motorcade, where it was positioned, and right after the +time I noticed him and when my wife was pointing this other thing to +me, I don't remember what that was, the dispatcher came on and gave the +position of the motorcade as being on Cedar Springs. This would be in +the area of Turtle Creek, down in that area. + +I can't remember the street's name but I know where it is at. And this +was the position of the motorcade and it was about 15 or 16 after 12. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, did you tell your wife about the presence of this +man immediately after you saw him? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what was the quality or condition of her eyes? + +Mr. ROWLAND. She has nearsightedness and has to wear glasses. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was she wearing glasses at the time? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No, she wasn't. + +Mr. SPECTER. Based on your knowledge of her eyesight, would it have +been possible for her to have seen him considering your relative +positions? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Had he still been there she would have been able to +acknowledge the figure with no description. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long did you see him there in total point of time? + +Mr. ROWLAND. It was all relatively brief, short time, 15 seconds, maybe +20. I was looking at the building, looking at the people hanging out of +the building, I noticed him, my eye contact was at that position for 15 +to 20 seconds. This is all relatively very short length of time. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now---- + +Mr. ROWLAND. But a lot can happen in that much time. + +Mr. SPECTER. When you saw him, you told her about him, and then did she +look in the direction of the man? + +Mr. ROWLAND. After she pointed something else out to me she looked in +that direction. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you then look back toward the direction of, to the +window where you had seen him? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I even pointed to it with my wife. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you look back at the same time she looked back? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And when you looked back what, if anything, did you +observe in the window? + +Mr. ROWLAND. There was nothing there then. + +Mr. SPECTER. Following that did you and she have any additional +conversation about this man in the window? + +Mr. ROWLAND. We talked about it momentarily, just for a few seconds +that it was of most likelihood a security man, had a very good vantage +point where he could watch the crowds, talked about the rifle, it +looked like a very high-powered rifle. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you mention that to your wife? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you described as fully as you can everything you +discussed with your wife at that juncture? + +Mr. ROWLAND. I think so. + +Representative FORD. Was there anybody else standing close to you as +you had this conversation with your wife? + +Mr. ROWLAND. There was a policeman about as far as me to the flag. + +Representative FORD. That is about how many feet, would you say? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Twelve, thirteen feet. + +Representative FORD. There was no one between you and the policeman in +that line of vision? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No. + +Then there were three or four colored men just behind the elevator, and +a couple on the elevator that had come up through the sidewalk. This +was a distance of--this was on the opposite side of us about 15 feet, +just a little further than the officer. + +Representative FORD. There was no one closer to you and your wife than +10 to 15 feet? + +Mr. ROWLAND. That is correct. That is one of the main reasons we +selected that spot. + +Representative FORD. Did it ever enter your mind that you should go and +tell the policeman of this sight or this vision that you had seen? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Really it didn't. + +Representative FORD. It never entered your mind? + +Mr. ROWLAND. I never dreamed of anything such as that. I mean, I +must honestly say my opinion was based on movies I have seen, on the +attempted assassination of Theodore Roosevelt where they had Secret +Service men up in the building such as that with rifles watching the +crowds, and another one concerned with attempted assassination of the +other one, Franklin Roosevelt, and both of these had Secret Service men +up in windows or on top of buildings with rifles, and this is how my +opinion was based and why it didn't alarm me. + +Perhaps if I had been older and had more experience in life it might +have made a difference. It very well could have. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Rowland, did the man with the rifle have any +distinctive facial appearance such as a mustache or a prominent scar, +anything of that sort which you could observe? + +Mr. ROWLAND. There was nothing dark on his face, no mustache. There +could have been a scar if it hadn't been a dark scar. If it was, you +know, a blotch or such as this, there was nothing very dark about the +color of his face. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Rowland, will you recount as precisely and as +specifically as you can, the exact conversation between you and your +wife from the time you first noticed this man until your conversation +about the man concluded, indicating what you said and what she said in +language as closely as you can recollect it? + +Mr. ROWLAND. That is a whopper. + +I am almost sure I told her or asked her, did she want to see a Secret +Service agent. She said, "Where," and I said, "In the building there," +and at that time she told me to look--I remember what she was looking +at. Right directly across from us in this plaza in front of the pond +there was a colored boy that had an epileptic fit or something of this +type right then, and she pointed this out to me and there were a couple +of officers there and a few moments later they called an ambulance, +this is what she told me to look at then, and we looked at this for a +short period of time, and then I told her to look in the building, the +second floor from the top and on that end, the two open windows, is I +think what I said, and I said, "He is not there now." + +I think that is what I said. She said, "What did he look like," and I +told her just that--I gave her more or less a brief description of what +he looked like, open collared shirt, light-colored shirt, and he had a +rifle, I described the rifle in as much detail as I have to you to her. + +Mr. SPECTER. You described the rifle to her in as much detail as you +have to us? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +And then she said something about wishing she could have seen him but +he was probably somewhere else in another part of the building watching +people now. Then we were discussing again, just preceding that we +were discussing the event with Mr. Stevenson, this was about 2 weeks +beforehand, this was fresh on our mind, and right after that we started +discussing that it was a security man. + +We were looking around, we became very security conscious. We noted +that policemen, I think there were maybe 2, maybe 3 on the viaduct +itself; some 20 or 30, I would say 20 to 25 policemen being in that +immediate area. + +Representative FORD. About what time, as you can best recollect, did +this conversation with your wife take place? + +Mr. ROWLAND. About 5 minutes until about 22 after. I think I again +looked at my watch. + +Representative FORD. After you and your wife looked up and saw that +there was no one in the window, did you ever again look at the window? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did, constantly. + +Representative FORD. And as you looked at the window subsequently did +you ever see anything else in the window? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No; not in that window, and I looked back every few +seconds, 30 seconds, maybe twice a minute, occasionally trying to find +him so I could point him out to my wife. + +Something I would like to note is that the window that I have been told +the shots were actually fired from, I did not see that, there was +someone hanging out that window at that time. + +Representative FORD. At what time was that? + +Mr. ROWLAND. At the time I saw the man in the other window, I saw this +man hanging out the window first. It was a colored man, I think. + +Representative FORD. Is this the same window where you saw the man +standing with the rifle? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No; this was the one on the east end of the building, the +one that they said the shots were fired from. + +Representative FORD. I am not clear on this now. The window that you +saw the man that you describe was on what end of the building? + +Mr. ROWLAND. The west, southwest corner. + +Representative FORD. And the man you saw hanging out from the window +was at what corner? + +Mr. ROWLAND. The east, southeast corner. + +Representative FORD. Southeast corner. On the same floor? + +Mr. ROWLAND. On the same floor. + +Representative FORD. When did you notice him? + +Mr. ROWLAND. This was before I noticed the other man with the rifle. + +Representative FORD. I see. This was before you saw the man in the +window with the rifle? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. My wife and I were both looking and making remarks +that the people were hanging out the windows. I think the majority of +them were colored people, some of them were hanging out the windows to +their waist, such as this. We made several remarks to this fact, and +then she started watching the colored boy, and I continued to look, and +then I saw the man with the rifle. + +Representative FORD. After 12:22 or thereabouts you indicated you +periodically looked back at the window in the southwest corner where +you had seen the man with the rifle. What happened as the motorcade +came along? + +Mr. ROWLAND. As the motorcade came along, there was quite a bit of +excitement. I didn't look back from then. I was very interested in +trying to see the President myself. I had seen him twice before but I +was interested in seeing him again. + +Representative FORD. Did you notice a sedan come by with any officials +in it at the outset of the motorcade? + +Mr. ROWLAND. The first car in the motorcade was, I think it was, a +white or cream-colored Ford. This appeared to be full of detectives or +such as this; rather husky men, large men. + +I think there were four in this car. + +Representative FORD. Was this an open or a closed car? + +Mr. ROWLAND. This was a sedan, the doors were closed. + +Representative FORD. What was the next car you noticed? + +Mr. ROWLAND. The next car was the President's car. + +Representative FORD. Did you notice again or did you look again during +this period of time at the School Depository Building? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No. From where we were standing the motorcade came down +Main, and when it turned on Houston we watched the motorcade, my wife +remarked at Jackie's clothing, Mrs. Kennedy, and we made a few remarks +of her clothing and how she looked, her appearance in general, and we +also discussed--we didn't immediately recognize Governor Connally and +his wife being in the car, we were trying to figure out who that was. + +Then the motorcade turned on Elm and was obscured from our vision by +a crowd, and we were discussing the clothing of Mrs. Kennedy at that +time. My wife likes clothes. + +Representative FORD. You never again, after the motorcade once came +into your view, looked back at the School Depository Building? + +Mr. ROWLAND. I did after the shots were fired. + +Mr. SPECTER. Had you finished telling us all about the conversation +between you and your wife concerning this man? + +Mr. ROWLAND. To the best of my recollection, yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. + +You have described seeing someone in another window hanging out. Would +you draw a circle and put an "A" beside the window where you say you +saw someone hanging out. That is on Exhibit No. 356. + +(Witness marking.) + +Mr. SPECTER. At about what time was it that you observed someone +hanging out of the window that you have marked as window "A"? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Again about 12:15 just before I noticed the other man. + +Mr. SPECTER. You have marked the double window there. Would you draw +the arrow in the red pencil indicating specifically which window it was. + +(Witness marking.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe with as much particularity as you can +what that man looked like? + +Mr. ROWLAND. It seemed to me an elderly Negro, that is about all. I +didn't pay very much attention to him. + +Mr. SPECTER. At or about that time did you observe anyone else hanging +out any window or observe any one through any window on the same floor +where you have drawn the two circles on Exhibit 356? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No; no one else on that floor. + +Mr. SPECTER. You testified before that there were other windows where +you had seen people hanging out, is that correct? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us and indicate on the picture, Exhibit +356, to the best of your ability to recollect just which those windows +were? + +Mr. ROWLAND. There was either two or three people in this window. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mark that with a "B" if you would, please. + +(Witness marking.) + +Mr. ROWLAND. Those pair of windows. I think this was all on that floor. + +Here on this floor. + +Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the second floor? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Circle the windows and mark it with a "C" if you will. + +Mr. ROWLAND. I think it was this pair immediately over the door, and +this pair. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mark one "C" and one "D," if you will. + +(Witness marking.) + +Mr. ROWLAND. Here I know there were two Negro women, I think. + +Mr. SPECTER. Indicating window "C." You say two Negro women? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And were those women each in one window, both in one +window or what? + +Mr. ROWLAND. They were one in each window. Then at the window "D" there +was one, one window open. + +Mr. SPECTER. Which was that, indicate that by an arrow, if you please. + +(Witness marking.) + +Mr. ROWLAND. The one on the west side, and this appeared to have two +heads just inside the window, no one hanging out the window as with the +others. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe anyone else hanging out the window? + +Mr. ROWLAND. There was someone on the third floor. I think it was--wait +a minute--yes, the third floor had three adjoining sets of windows that +were open. They were all open to the fullest extent they would open. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you mark those "E," "F" and "G," please. + +(Witness marking.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any people in those windows marked "E," +"F," and "G"? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, and this pair, "E," both windows were open, and there +appeared to be one man in the eastern window. + +Mr. SPECTER. Which you have now marked with an arrow. + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. How about as to window marked "F"? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Both windows were completely up, and there appeared to +be several people in that window, four or five, a number that I don't +remember, you know I couldn't see all of them. + +Mr. SPECTER. How about window "G"? + +Mr. ROWLAND. This again, both windows were open all of the way and I +think there was one person in each window. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other people either through any other +window or hanging out of any other window in the building? + +Mr. ROWLAND. There was no one in the fourth floor to my knowledge, to +my recollection. + +There were what appeared to be secretaries, several young white girls +or ladies, standing on the steps of the building in this general area. + +Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the door of the building. + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes. + +Mr. ROWLAND. And there was no one else in there, except I think there +was a policeman in front of the door on the sidewalk. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you described everybody you have observed, with +respect to everybody hanging out the windows? + +Mr. ROWLAND. To the best of my recollection. + +Mr. SPECTER. Or anybody you could see through the windows? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. As to the window which you have marked "A", that double +pair of windows, which, if either or both, was open? + +Mr. ROWLAND. The one on the eastern side was open and not all of the +way it would open. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is that the one you have marked with an arrow? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. How much of that window was open? + +Mr. ROWLAND. It was open about that far. + +Mr. SPECTER. Indicating 2-1/2 feet? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Two feet. + +Mr. SPECTER. Two feet. + +Mr. ROWLAND. Indicating 2 feet. It looked like the windows might open +3--two-thirds or three-fourths of the distance. + +Mr. SPECTER. How about the other of the windows in the double-set +marked "A," was that completely closed? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. How about the windows in the group marked "B," was either +of those windows open? + +Mr. ROWLAND. They were both completely open. + +Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe with any more particularity the people +you saw in the window which you have marked "B"? + +Mr. ROWLAND. There was a white man hanging out either "G" or "B," I do +not remember which. He was the only white man, besides the man in these +windows that I saw---- + +Mr. SPECTER. When you said "these windows" you mean the first window +you marked with a black circle and a black arrow? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else you can tell us about the people +you saw in window "B"? + +Mr. ROWLAND. I think to the best of my recollection there was either +two or three people in window "B," and as I stated before, either "B" +or "G" had a white man in the window. I do not remember which. I do +remember it was one of the windows on the corner. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect if the other people in window "B" were +white or Negro? + +Mr. ROWLAND. They were Negro. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you have any occasion to look back at window "A" +from the time you saw the man whom you described as a Negro gentleman +in that window until the President's procession passed by? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Well, up until the time the procession was---- + +(Short recess.) + +Representative FORD. I suggest, Mr. Specter, we resume the hearing. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you read the last question, Mr. Reporter, please. + +(Question read.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you like to start the question again or would you +like the question repeated? + +Mr. ROWLAND. I understand the question. + +Let me see, the exact time I do not remember, but the man, the colored +man, was in that window until the procession reached Commerce--I mean +Main, and Ervay. I was looking back quite often, as I stated. + +Mr. SPECTER. How do you fix the time that he was there until the +procession reached the intersection of Commerce and Ervay? + +Mr. ROWLAND. The police motorcycle was almost in front of me with the +speaker on very loud, giving the relative position about every 15 or 20 +seconds of the motorcade, and this is how I was able to note that. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you observing the window which you marked "A" at the +time he departed? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No, I didn't. I just know, I was looking at the crowd +around, and then I glanced back up again, and neither did I see the man +with the rifle nor did I see him. The colored man went away. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long was that after you first noticed the colored man +in the window "A"? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Fifteen minutes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Had you looked back at window "A" at any time during that +15 minute interval? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Had you seen anybody in window "A" during that time? + +Mr. ROWLAND. The colored man was that---- + +Mr. SPECTER. So how many times did you notice him altogether? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Several. I think I looked back about two, maybe three +times a minute, an average. I was, you know, trying to find the man +with the rifle to point him out to my wife. I noticed the colored man +in that window. I looked at practically every window in the building +but I didn't look at anything with the detail to see what I was looking +for. + +Mr. SPECTER. Over how long a time span did you observe the Negro man to +be in the window marked "A"? + +Mr. ROWLAND. He was there before I noticed the man with the rifle and +approximately 12:30 or when the motorcade was at Main and Ervay he was +gone when I looked back and I had looked up there about 30 seconds +before or a minute before. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long after you heard the motorcade was at Main and +Ervay did the motorcade pass by where you were? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Another 5 minutes. + +Mr. SPECTER. So that you observed this colored man on the window you +have marked "A" within 5 minutes prior to the time the motorcade passed +in front of you? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Approximately 5 minutes prior to the time the motorcade +came, he wasn't there. About 30 seconds or a minute prior to that time +he was there. + +Mr. SPECTER. A few moments ago in your testimony you stated that in +observing policemen in the area you had observed some officers on the +overpass? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how far were you from the overpass at that +time? + +Mr. ROWLAND. 125 yards approximately. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to observe with clarity the individuals who +were standing on the overpass? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Not with detailed distinction. I do remember there were +three women there, two or three men, a couple of boys, and two officers +on the overpass itself. + +Mr. SPECTER. How did you identify the officers as being policemen? + +Mr. ROWLAND. They were uniformed officers. + +Mr. SPECTER. What kind of uniforms were they wearing? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Blue; I think trimmed in gold, uniforms. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are those the regular uniforms worn by the Dallas police? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where were you standing at the time you observed the +people on the overpass whom you have just described? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Position "B." + +Mr. SPECTER. At about what time was it when you observed those +individuals? + +Mr. ROWLAND. This was between the time between 12:15 and 12:30. I think +I looked more than once. + +Mr. SPECTER. How many times did you look? + +Mr. ROWLAND. I don't know really. I was more or less scanning the crowd. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did the individuals present on the triple overpass change +at the various times when you looked in that direction? + +Mr. ROWLAND. I don't think so. I don't think anyone went off who was up +there or anyone else went on. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you now relate what occurred as the Presidential +motorcade passed by you? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Well, the car turned the corner at Houston and Main. +Everyone was rushing, pressing the cars, trying to get closer. There +were quite a few people, you know, trying to run alongside of the car +such as this; officers were trying to prevent this. The car turned--we +had more or less a long period of time that they were within our sight +considering some of the other people. + +The car went down Houston, again turned on Elm, and it was proceeding +down Elm when we heard the first of the reports. This I passed off +as a backfire, so did practically everyone in the area because gobs +of people, when I say gobs, I mean almost everyone in the vicinity, +started laughing that couldn't see the motorcade. The motorcade was +obscured from our vision by the crowd. + +Mr. SPECTER. What would the occasion be for laughter on the sound of a +backfire? + +Mr. ROWLAND. I don't know. A lot of people laughed. I don't know. But +a lot of people laughed, chuckled, such as this. Then approximately 5 +seconds, 5 or 6 seconds, the second report was heard, 2 seconds the +third report. After the second report, I knew what it was, and---- + +Mr. SPECTER. What was it? + +Mr. ROWLAND. I knew that it was a gun firing. + +Mr. SPECTER. How did you know that? + +Mr. ROWLAND. I have been around guns quite a bit in my lifetime. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was the sound of the fire different from the first and +second sounds you described? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No, that is just it. It did not sound as though there was +any return fire in that sense. + +Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by return fire? + +Mr. ROWLAND. That anyone fired back. You know, anyone in the procession +such as our detectives or Secret Service men fired back at anything +else. It gave the report of a rifle which most of the Secret Service +men don't carry in a holster although I am sure they had some in the +cars but the following two shots were the same report being of the +same intensity. I state, because from a different position I know that +the same rifle is not going to make the same sound in two different +positions especially in a position such as it was, because of the +ricocheting of sound and echo effects. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your basis for saying that, Mr. Rowland, that the +rifle would not make the same sound in two different positions? + +Mr. ROWLAND. This is due to a long study of sound and study of echo +effects. + +Mr. SPECTER. When had you conducted that study? + +Mr. ROWLAND. In physics in the past 3 years. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you read any special books on that subject? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Quite a few. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect any of the titles and authors? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No; I do not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you take any special courses which would give you +insight into that subject matter? + +Mr. ROWLAND. This was more or less on my own initiative. The instructor +gave me help and aided me when I requested this during my off periods +of class. + +Mr. SPECTER. What instructor was that? + +Mr. ROWLAND. His name was Foster. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall his first name? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Sam. + +Mr. SPECTER. And at what school does he teach? + +Mr. ROWLAND. He teaches at Crozier Tech, Downtown Technical High School. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is he still there? + +Mr. ROWLAND. To my knowledge. + +Mr. SPECTER. How recently did you have a course with him? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Last year, last school year. + +Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the second sound by comparison with the +first sound which you have described as being similar to a backfire? + +Mr. ROWLAND. The second to my recollection was identical or as closely +as could be. + +Mr. SPECTER. How about the third shot? + +Mr. ROWLAND. The same. + +Mr. SPECTER. Sounded the same to you? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any impression or reaction as to the point of +origin when you heard the first noise? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Well, I began looking, I didn't look at the building +mainly, and as practically any of the police officers that were there +then will tell you, the echo effect was such that it sounded like it +came from the railroad yards. That is where I looked, that is where all +the policemen, everyone, converged on the railroads. + +Mr. SPECTER. When you say railroad yards, what area are you referring +to? Identify it on Commission Exhibit No. 354, for example? + +Mr. ROWLAND. In this area in here. + +Now most of the officers converged on this area---- + +Mr. SPECTER. When you say "in here," I will get a black pencil here and +see if we can draw a circle around the area where you have described +the echo effect? + +Mr. ROWLAND. The echo effect felt as though it came from this general +vicinity. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mark that with the letter "C" in the center of your circle. + +(Witness marking.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, as to the second shot, did you have any impression as +to the point of origin or source? + +Mr. ROWLAND. The same point or very close to it. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how about the third shot? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Very close to the same position. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where did you look, if you recall, after you heard the +first shot, in what direction? + +Mr. ROWLAND. We were standing here at position "B." At the sound of the +second report, I proceeded across the street. My wife was very anxious +to find out what was going on. I proceeded to cross the street like +this. + +Mr. SPECTER. Indicating you were--she was pulling you ahead? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. She was very anxious to find out what was going on. + +Mr. SPECTER. That was at the sound of the second report? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, it was. + +Mr. SPECTER. And will you mark with this black pencil, with the letter +"D," where you went to, as she pulled you across the street? + +Mr. ROWLAND. We crossed the street in this area, proceeded down the +sidewalk, around here, there was quite a bit of crowd, people were +running. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where were you at the time that you heard the second +report? + +Mr. ROWLAND. At the second report we were approximately at the curb, +out from the curb, we were off the sidewalk. + +Mr. SPECTER. At point "V"? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. How about the third shot, where were you then? + +Mr. ROWLAND. At the third shot I was in this vicinity halfway to where +we crossed the street to the end of the block. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you indicate with the letter "D" where you were at +the time of the third shot? + +(Witness marking.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Where did you look when you heard the third report? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Well, we were trying to actually see the President's car, +that is what my wife was trying to do, and then I decided I might as +well give in to her. + +Mr. SPECTER. After the shots occurred, did you ever look back at the +Texas School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No; I did not. In fact, I went over toward the scene of +the railroad yards myself. + +Mr. SPECTER. Why did you not look back at the Texas School Book +Depository Building in view of the fact that you had seen a man with a +rifle up there earlier in the day? + +Mr. ROWLAND. I don't remember. It was mostly due to the confusion, and +then the fact that it sounded like it came from this area "C," and that +all the officers, enforcement officers, were converging on that area, +and I just didn't pay any attention to it at that time. + +Mr. SPECTER. How many officers were converging on that area, to the +best of your ability to recollect and estimate? + +Mr. ROWLAND. I think it would be a very good estimation of 50, maybe +more. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how fast the President's automobile was +driving as it proceeded in front of you when you were standing at +position "B"? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Very slow pace, 5, 10 miles an hour. + +Mr. SPECTER. When, if at all, did you first report what you had +observed in the Texas School Book Depository Building about the man +with the rifle to anyone in an official position? + +Mr. ROWLAND. That was approximately 15 minutes after the third report +that I went to an officer, he was a plainclothesman who was there +combing the area, close to position "C," looking for footprints and +such as this, some lady said someone jumped off one of the colonnades +and started running, there was an officer looking in this area for +footprints and such as this. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was that lady ever identified to you? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No; I do not remember his name. He introduced himself and +showed me his ID. + +Mr. SPECTER. I mean the lady you talked about. + +Mr. ROWLAND. No; I don't. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now as to the officer to whom you made a report, was he a +State, City or Federal official, if you know? + +Mr. ROWLAND. It was a Dallas detective. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you give him a statement or what procedure did he +follow? + +Mr. ROWLAND. It happened such as this: He was looking in this area for +footprints or any visible marks. I started looking around also. I found +a fountain pen that someone had probably dropped during the confusion +or fell out of their pocket when they fell on the ground or such. I +picked it up and handed it to him. I had on gloves, I wasn't to mess up +the fingerprints because it very possibly could have fallen out of the +pocket of the man who supposedly had jumped down. + +Mr. SPECTER. You were wearing gloves on that day? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was it a chilly day? + +Mr. ROWLAND. The sun was shining, it was a fair day but the wind was +blowing and it was breezy. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was it cold enough to have gloves? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I had on my overcoat and my wife had a fairly heavy +coat. + +Mr. SPECTER. Proceed, and tell us what you did. + +Mr. ROWLAND. I handed this pen to the officer and I started thinking +and I went to him and told him again just before the motorcade came +I saw a man in the building with a rifle, and he immediately took me +to Sheriff Decker which, in turn, asked two other deputies to take +me to his office. We went there to his office. There was quite a few +reporters around, such as this. They took my wife and I to a back room +and shut us off completely from the reporters and everyone. There was +no one in that room for 4 hours but this sheriff and a FBI agent, Agent +Sorrels, and a stenographer, and I think another lady and a man that +had seen another man carrying a rifle in a case on the other end of +town earlier prior to this time. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure there was a court reporter present? + +Mr. ROWLAND. It was one of the secretaries from the office of the +sheriff, stenographer who was taking, using an electric typewriter +every time. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was she taking down in shorthand---- + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. As you could observe---- + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Each word that you were saying? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did she have any sort of a machine, such as a stenograph, +as the gentleman who is serving as court reporter has? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No; she took it down in shorthand and retyped it on an +electric typewriter that she brought into the room. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did she type up what you had said? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; typed up three or four copies and then I signed it at +that time. + +Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a photostatic copy of what purports to +be an affidavit which you gave to the Sheriff's Department of the +County of Dallas, Tex., on November 22, 1963, and has been marked as +Commission Exhibit No. 357. Would you take a look at that, take your +time, of course, and tell us whether or not that is the affidavit which +you took on the occasion which you have just related? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. In fact, at this time I also noted that my wife +dragged me across the street. + +Mr. SPECTER. Just one detail on that statement: There is a reference +here to the man holding the rifle being in a position which you +describe as "a parade-rest sort of position." That appears---- + +Mr. ROWLAND. It does appear in there? + +Mr. SPECTER. Eighteen lines down. + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I see it. It wasn't a parade-rest position. It was +a port-arms position. I never noticed that in there before. There +were--actually, I will say this, I said what I had to say. The FBI +agent reworded it, and she took it down. + +Now this happened; it wasn't my words verbatim, it was reworded. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever use the words "parade-rest" position? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Not to my recollection. + +Mr. SPECTER. So it is just an error in transcription which you did not +notice when you signed it. + +(At this point, Chief Justice Warren entered the hearing room.) + +Is there any other aspect of the affidavit which you gave, which you +have just observed, which is at variance with your current recollection +of what you saw and heard on that date? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Here it states we were at the west entrance of the +sheriff's office, that is just a general approximation, we were 25 feet +from there, in fact. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other portions of it which vary from your +current recollection? + +Mr. ROWLAND. I don't remember saying definitely that he was back about +15 feet. In fact, I think I said, as I said now, 3 to 5 feet, because +from my point of view if he was back 15 feet I couldn't have even seen +him. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other parts of the affidavit which vary from +your current recollection? + +Mr. ROWLAND. The actual time between the reports I would say now, after +having had time to consider the 6 seconds between the first and second +report and two between the second and third. It is very fast for a +bolt-loading rifle. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether or not the statement is accurate in +that you told the police officials at that time that there was a time +span of 8 seconds between the first and second shots and a time span of +3 seconds between the second and third shots? + +Mr. ROWLAND. I think I did tell them that, yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And with respect to the facts which appear in the +statement that you said the man was standing about 15 feet back +from the windows, did you actually tell them that when you made the +statement, or is that an error of transcription? + +Mr. ROWLAND. I don't think I said that. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now are there any other points where the affidavit is at +variance from your current recollection? + +Mr. ROWLAND. The time that it states here, we arrived in downtown +Dallas at approximately 12:10. Actually we arrived before 12 but we +took the position that we have, approximately 12:10, that position "V" +on this other Exhibit 354. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other variances between your current +recollection and this statement? + +Mr. ROWLAND. I do not think so. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you tell the police officials at the time you made +this statement that there was a Negro gentleman in the window on the +southwest corner of the Texas School Book Depository Building which you +have marked with a circle "A"--pardon me, southeast? + +Mr. ROWLAND. At that time, no. However, the next day on Saturday there +were a pair of FBI officers, agents out at my home, and they took +another handwritten statement from me which I signed again, and this +was basically the same. At that time I told them I did see the Negro +man there and they told me it didn't have any bearing or such on the +case right then. In fact, they just the same as told me to forget it +now. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Reporter, will you please repeat that last answer for +us? + +(Answer read.) + +Mr. SPECTER. I am now handing you a document which I have marked as +Commission Exhibit No. 358, which purports to be a reproduction of a +statement which was purportedly given by you to the FBI, two agents of +that Bureau. + +Will you take a look at that and tell us if that is the statement which +you gave to the FBI to which you just referred? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Again, I have a variance of time and a variance of +distance that he was from the window. + +Mr. SPECTER. Before you direct your attention to those factors, Mr. +Rowland, are you able to tell us whether or not this is the statement +which you gave to the FBI? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. My wife was with me when I gave the statement. + +Mr. SPECTER. And without looking at the statement which, may the record +show, you are not now doing, do you recollect the names of the FBI, +don't look there, just tell me if you can recollect without seeing +their names on the statement? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I talked to seven different pairs of FBI agents +and I don't remember their names. + +Mr. SPECTER. Seven different pairs? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, sir; I had--this is only one of the statements. They +came to my home or where I worked and took three more besides this one. +There were four handwritten statements that I signed. + +Mr. SPECTER. Before getting the details on those, tell me in what +respect, if any, the statement which we have identified as Commission +Exhibit No. 358 differs from what you told the FBI agents at that time? + +Mr. ROWLAND. I do not think it differs. + +Mr. SPECTER. Then that statement accurately reflects what you said at +that time? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I am sure it does. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, in what respects, if any, does that statement vary +from your current recollection about the facts which are contained +therein? + +Mr. ROWLAND. The time factor, the time that we arrived in town. Here +again it states 12:10. Now this is the time that we arrived at the +position that we stayed at, not the time we arrived in town, and the +distance the man was back from the window. Here it states 12 to 15 +feet. I do not remember saying that although I very well could have. +Everything was confusing. + +Mr. SPECTER. But what is your current recollection on the distance that +the man was back from the window? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Three to four, five feet, somewhere in that neighborhood. +He wasn't very far. Far enough for the sunlight to hit him and at the +angle the sun was that wouldn't be very far. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now noticing that the date on that statement is November +24, 1963, does that appear to you to be the date when that statement +was taken, or was it taken on the 23d, the day after the assassination? + +Mr. ROWLAND. It was Saturday morning, the 24th. + +Mr. SPECTER. On what day was the assassination? + +Mr. ROWLAND. It was Thursday, wasn't it? + +Mr. SPECTER. No; the assassination occurred on Friday. + +Mr. ROWLAND. I am sorry, that is right. It is so confused in this. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, was the statement taken the second day after the +assassination or the morning of the first day after the assassination? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No; it was taken on Saturday morning before I went to work +because on Sunday there was another statement taken from me at my job +where I was working. This occurred right after Oswald was shot himself. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, are you able to identify that statement which we +have marked Exhibit 358, as the statement taken on Saturday, the 23d, +as distinguished from the statement taken on Sunday, the 24th of +November? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. How can you be certain of that, Mr. Rowland? + +Mr. ROWLAND. The one on Sunday, this particular one, I do remember the +agent used a legal pad. He did have three pages of it handwritten. I +made corrections on this in different parts of it. The one on Sunday +was not a legal pad. It was a steno pad and it, in fact, covered a page +and a half, I think, and it was concerned with mainly could I identify +the man that I saw, his description. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, at the time you made the Saturday statement, which +you say was transcribed and appears as Exhibit 358, did you at that +time tell the interviewing FBI agents about the colored gentleman who +you testified was in the window which you marked with an "A"? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you ask them at that time to include the information +in the statement which they took from you? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No. I think I told them about it after the statement, as +an afterthought, an afterthought came up, it came into my mind. I also +told the agents that took a statement from me on Sunday. They didn't +seem very interested, so I just forgot about it for a while. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was that information included in the written portion of +the statement which was taken from you on Sunday? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No, it wasn't. It shouldn't but the agent deleted it +though himself, I mean I included it in what I gave. + +Mr. SPECTER. When you say deleted it, did he strike it out after +putting it in, or did he omit it in the transcription? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Omitted it. + +Senator COOPER. I think you said a while ago that when you told the FBI +agents on Saturday that you had seen this Negro man in the window, that +they indicated to you that they weren't interested in it at all. What +did they say which gave you that impression? + +Mr. ROWLAND. I don't remember exactly what was said. The context was +again the agents were trying to find out if I could positively identify +the man that I saw. They were concerned mainly with this, and I brought +up to them about the Negro man after I had signed the statement, and at +that time he just told me that they were just trying to find out about +or if anyone could identify the man who was up there. They just didn't +seem interested at all. They didn't pursue the point. They didn't take +it down in the notation as such. + +Mr. SPECTER. It was more of the fact that they didn't pursue it, didn't +include it? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Or that they said something which led you to believe they +were not interested? + +Mr. ROWLAND. It was just the fact they didn't pursue it. I mean, I +just mentioned that I saw him in that window. They didn't ask me, you +know, if was this at the same time or such. They just didn't seem very +interested in that at all. + +Mr. WRIGHT. By man who was up there you mean man with the rifle? + +Mr. ROWLAND. They were interested in the man with the rifle, and +finding out if anyone could identify him. The other man was the colored +man in the other window. + +Representative FORD. A minute ago you indicated that you could see +the man in the window with the rifle because of the light conditions, +I think you referred to the sun shining in that direction toward the +building. Was the sun bright, do you recall that at all? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; the sun was out, somewhat bright. I didn't have any +sunglasses on at that time because I had broken them the week before, +and I hadn't gotten any new ones. The sun was shining in from what I +could tell he was standing where I seen him through the window on my +right. This would be the east window of the pair. It appeared as though +the sun were shining in through either a window on the other side of +the building, on the west side of the building, or possibly the western +pair, one of the pair. This sun was--that hit him about from the +shoulders down as far as I could see, that is why I was able to tell +the rifle was of the type or such that it was. + +Representative FORD. As you faced the window, as you faced the +building, the sun was shining over which shoulder, to your left or your +right shoulder? + +Mr. ROWLAND. As I faced the building the sun was shining--well, I would +have been facing the building if the building were in this direction +more or less this way and the sun would have been shining from this +area. + +Representative FORD. Over your left shoulder? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; forward. + +Representative FORD. That is all. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to identify the man whom you saw in the +window with the rifle for the FBI agents? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did they have pictures with them at that time? + +Mr. ROWLAND. I have seen three pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald, two of +them in the paper. They had a morning newspaper was all they had. It +wasn't a very good picture, and I couldn't tell. I didn't know, I +wasn't going to say because I didn't, I mean. I just couldn't identify +him. I wouldn't be--I had already resigned myself not to be given that +task, because I couldn't definitely say any one man was that man. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what was the basis of your concluding, as you put it, +that you resigned yourself to that task? + +Mr. ROWLAND. This was because I just didn't have a good enough look at +his face. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was that your conclusion at this moment that you are +unable to identify, with precision and certainty, the man whom you saw +holding the rifle in the window of the Texas School Book Depository +Building? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; that is true. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you believe that you could identify the Negro gentleman +in window "A" whom you testified you saw? + +Mr. ROWLAND. I would have to say perhaps. I can't say for sure. + +Mr. SPECTER. A moment ago you testified that you gave statements +to seven different pairs of FBI agents. Have you already testified +about three of those occasions, or, stated differently, start at the +beginning and tell us, as best you can recollect, what were those +occasions, when they occurred, where you were when you had those +meetings with the seven different pairs of agents. + +Mr. ROWLAND. The first statement I gave was in the sheriff's office on +that date. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were there two FBI agents present? + +Mr. ROWLAND. I think there were. + +Mr. SPECTER. And do you recollect their names? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No, I do not. + +Mr. SPECTER. When was the second occasion? + +Mr. ROWLAND. The Saturday morning. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where was that statement given? + +Mr. ROWLAND. That was in the agent's car in front of my mother-in-law's +house. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect the identities of those FBI agents? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No, I do not. + +Mr. SPECTER. That is the statement you have identified as being +reproduced in Commission Exhibit 358? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, when was the third statement obtained? + +Mr. ROWLAND. It was Sunday morning, the following day, November 25. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where was that statement obtained? + +Mr. ROWLAND. This was at my place of employment at the Pizza Inn. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, Sunday after the assassination would have been the +24th. + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; that is right, I am sorry, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you certain of the day of the week, however? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I am certain of that because I went to work at noon +on Sunday and they were there when I got to work, they were waiting on +me. + +Mr. SPECTER. That is the statement which you described as having been +taken on a stenopad? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you sign that statement? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did. This was in the presence of my wife because +she was there. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect the identity of those FBI agents? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No; I do not, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. When was the fourth statement taken? + +Mr. ROWLAND. The fourth was Tuesday night of that week. + +Mr. SPECTER. Of the following week? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where was that statement taken? + +Mr. ROWLAND. This was at my mother-in-law's house, and---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Was that reduced to writing? + +Mr. ROWLAND. That was merely one paragraph. They were concerned with +identification of the man that I saw. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell them essentially at that time? + +Mr. ROWLAND. The description and that I could not positively identify +him. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you sign a statement for them at that time? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the identity of those FBI agents? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. SPECTER. Up to this point were any of the FBI agents the same who +had interviewed you and taken statements from you? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. All different? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. When did the fifth occasion take place when you were +interviewed by the FBI? + +Mr. ROWLAND. This was again where I worked. This was, it was not a +formal written statement. They just took notes on what I said, had me +recount that entire thing to the best of my knowledge. + +Mr. SPECTER. When did this occur, the fifth one? + +Mr. ROWLAND. It was on the following Friday. + +Mr. SPECTER. About what time of the day or night was it? + +Mr. ROWLAND. About 8:30 p.m. + +Mr. SPECTER. At the Pizza Inn? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; Dallas time. + +Mr. SPECTER. And do you recall the identities of those FBI agents? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No; I don't. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were they the same as any who had ever interviewed you +before? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; none of them are the same. + +Mr. SPECTER. When was the sixth occasion when you were interviewed by +the FBI? + +Mr. ROWLAND. It was again on Sunday. + +Mr. SPECTER. This would have been November--it would have been December +1st? + +Mr. ROWLAND. I don't remember that date but it was---- + +Mr. SPECTER. The second Sunday after the assassination? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where was the sixth interview conducted? + +Mr. ROWLAND. This was at the Pizza Inn. + +Mr. SPECTER. About what time of the day or night was that? + +Mr. ROWLAND. About 1 o'clock. This was again right after I came to work. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was the statement taken from you at that time reduced to +writing? + +Mr. ROWLAND. It was again informal, just taking notes on my statement, +had me recount what I had told the other agents. + +Mr. SPECTER. What were they interested in specifically at that time if +you recall? + +Mr. ROWLAND. They just wanted me to recount everything that I could +recall. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the identity of those agents? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were they again different agents? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; they were. + +Mr. SPECTER. From all those you had seen before? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. When had you given the seventh statement to the FBI? + +Mr. ROWLAND. The last statement I gave I think it was to one FBI agent +and a Secret Service Agent. + +Mr. SPECTER. When did that occur? + +Mr. ROWLAND. That was either Tuesday or Wednesday of the week. I do not +remember which. + +Mr. SPECTER. On the week following the Sunday when you gave the sixth +statement? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall the identities of those men? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. SPECTER. Had you ever seen either before? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I hadn't. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did they reduce your statement to writing? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; they just had me recount everything again. + +Mr. SPECTER. In addition to the times you have already stated, have you +ever been interviewed by the FBI on any other occasion? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever been interviewed by the Secret Service on +any other occasion? + +Mr. ROWLAND. The afternoon of the 22d and the seventh time was the only +two times of the Secret Service. + +Mr. SPECTER. There was a Secret Service agent present in the sheriff's +office? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; he was Agent Sorrels. + +Mr. SPECTER. When you gave the affidavit which we have identified as +Commission Exhibit 357? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. In addition to the times you have mentioned, have you +ever been interviewed by any agent or representative of the Federal +Government? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I have not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed by any other agent or +representative of the State Government of Texas? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, on any of the other occasions, other than those you +testified about, did you mention seeing the Negro gentleman in the +window which we have circled with the "A"? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Rowland, what was the quality of your grades in high +school? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Well, up until my senior year they were 4.0 straight A's, +in my senior year I got a couple of B's. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what your IQ or intelligence quotient is? + +Mr. ROWLAND. 147. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know when you were tested for that? + +Mr. ROWLAND. In 1963; in May. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Rowland, a couple of other questions. + +Are you able to give us any other type of a description of the Negro +gentleman whom you observed in the window we marked "A" with respect to +height, weight, age? + +Mr. ROWLAND. He was very thin, an elderly gentleman, bald or +practically bald, very thin hair if he wasn't bald. Had on a plaid +shirt. I think it was red and green, very bright color, that is why I +remember it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us an estimate as to age? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Fifty; possibly 55 or 60. + +Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us an estimate as to height? + +Mr. ROWLAND. 5'8", 5'10", in that neighborhood. He was very slender, +very thin. + +Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us a more definite description as to +complexion? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Very dark or fairly dark, not real dark compared to some +Negroes, but fairly dark. Seemed like his face was either--I can't +recall detail but it was either very wrinkled or marked in some way. + +Mr. SPECTER. Shortly after the assassination and before these +interviews that you described were completed, Mr. Rowland, had you +learned or heard that the shots were supposed to have come out of the +window which we have marked with the "A"? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir. I did not know that, in fact until Saturday when +I read the paper. + +Mr. SPECTER. Which Saturday is that? + +Mr. ROWLAND. The following Saturday. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would that be the second day, the day after the +assassination? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, knowing that, at that time, did you attach any +particular significance to the presence of the Negro gentleman, whom +you have described, that you saw in window "A"? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; that is why I brought it to the attention of the FBI +agents who interviewed me that day. This was as an afterthought because +I did not think of it firsthand. But I did bring it to their attention +before they left, and they---- + +Mr. SPECTER. That was at the interview on the Saturday morning November +23? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you think it of sufficient significance to bring it +to the attention of any of the other interviewing FBI agents on the +balance of the interviews you have described? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did on the following Sunday to the agents who +interviewed me where I worked. + +Mr. SPECTER. How about the following Sunday? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No; I did not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, at this time I move for the admission +into evidence of the three exhibits which we have shown this witness. + +The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted. + +Mr. SPECTER. Exhibits Nos. 356, 357, and 358. That completes our +questioning, Your Honor. + +(The documents referred to were marked Commission's Exhibits Nos. 356, +357, and 358 for identification and admitted into evidence.) + +The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cooper, have you any questions? + +Senator COOPER. You said earlier that you had been much interested in +and pursued studies in sounds, I believe? + +Mr. ROWLAND. I have studied quite a bit of electronics, sound. Math and +science is what I like. + +Senator COOPER. You said you had read books on this subject. Did you +ever conduct any experiments yourself? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; in the form of--there is a theory that sound is a +basis of a transmitter and a receiver, that you have to have a receiver +to have sound. There is a theory that if a tree falls down in the +middle of a forest and there is nobody around where they can hear it, +there is no sound. + +Well, I have conducted experiments on this, and I--it is very +interesting, very fascinating, but you can't prove it or you can't +disprove it because if you have got a microphone there you have got a +receiver. + +Senator COOPER. Did you ever conduct any experiments with rifles, +firing a rifle in relation to sound? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; in a firing range. + +Senator COOPER. Beg pardon? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Firing range. + +Senator COOPER. Yes. + +Mr. ROWLAND. I did conduct a few experiments. One of them was firing a +bullet over water; you know, we were using a set of wood blocks to fire +into, so we had a big vat of water that we were firing over, and we +had several different articles and composition floating on the water, +trying to measure the effect of the sound wave upon that. Such as this +we did conduct. + +Senator COOPER. I think you did say that when you heard the first +report that you considered it to be a rifle shot? + +Mr. ROWLAND. I did, but almost immediately everyone started laughing +so I did not give it any further consideration until the second shot, +second report. + +Senator COOPER. At the time you saw a man standing near a window in the +Texas School Book Depository with a rifle, can you state whether there +were any, did you know whether or not any police officers were near you? + +Mr. ROWLAND. There was an officer about 20 feet to my left. + +Senator COOPER. Did you see any others? + +Mr. ROWLAND. There were officers all over, that was the closest one. +There were four or five on the block across the street from me, two of +them being with the boy who had the epileptic fit. + +There was also an officer in front of the doors to that building. +There were several on the corners. I would say there were 20 uniformed +officers right there in that 1-1/2-block area. + +Senator COOPER. Could any of the officers that you saw whose position +you noted, have seen this window from the place where they were +standing? + +Mr. ROWLAND. They could have; yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. You don't remember whether any of them were looking up +there? + +Mr. ROWLAND. No; I don't remember whether they were. No; I don't. + +Senator COOPER. Did it occur to you that you should speak to the +officer about seeing a man in the window? + +Mr. ROWLAND. It has. Do you ever have reoccurring dreams, sir? + +Senator COOPER. What? + +Mr. ROWLAND. Do you ever have reoccurring dreams? + +Senator COOPER. Yes. + +Mr. ROWLAND. This is a reoccurring dream of mine, sir, all the time, +what if I had told someone about it. I knew about it enough in advance +and perhaps it could have been prevented. I mean this is something +which shakes me up at times. + +Senator COOPER. I don't want to disturb you about that but my point was +at the time did you--I think you said, though, you thought that he was +a--he could have been a--Secret Service man, officer. + +Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; that is right. + +Senator COOPER. That is all. + +The CHAIRMAN. Anything further, Congressman Ford? + +Representative FORD. Mr. Rowland, have you ever had occasion to go back +to the scene and reconstruct it? Have you ever gone back---- + +The CHAIRMAN. Supposing we take a few minutes recess. + +Mr. ROWLAND. The answer to that question is yes; I do all the time. I +pass that area very frequently. + +The CHAIRMAN. Any other questions, gentlemen, Mr. Wright? + +Mr. WRIGHT. No, Your Honor. + +The CHAIRMAN. Very well, Mr. Rowland, I want to thank you for coming +here and cooperating with the Commission. I know that this is a matter +that recalls very sordid thoughts to your mind, and I can see how you +would be somewhat distressed about it but you have been very frank and +cooperative with us and I appreciate it. + +We will take a short recess. + +(Short recess.) + + +TESTIMONY OF JAMES RICHARD WORRELL, JR. + +The CHAIRMAN. All right. + +Will you raise your right hand and be sworn, please? + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this +Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please. + +Mr. Worrell, the purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of +Arnold Louis Rowland, Amos Lee Evins, yourself, and Robert Jackson, who +were in the vicinity of the assassination scene on November 22, 1963. +The Commission proposes to ask you and the other witnesses for facts +concerning your knowledge of the assassination of the President. + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Specter, will you proceed with the examination. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please? + +Mr. WORRELL. James Richard Worrell, Jr. + +The CHAIRMAN. Senator, will you preside while I answer a phone call to +another member of the Commission? + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your address, Mr. Worrell? + +Mr. WORRELL. 13510 Winterhaven Drive. + +Mr. SPECTER. What city is that? + +Mr. WORRELL. In Dallas, it is the Farmers Branch of the suburb of +Dallas. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long have you resided in Dallas, Tex.? + +Mr. WORRELL. About 12 years. + +Mr. SPECTER. And where did you live before that? + +Mr. WORRELL. 3140 Storey Lane. + +Mr. SPECTER. And in what city is Storey Lane located? + +Mr. WORRELL. Dallas. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where were you born? + +Mr. WORRELL. Livermore, Calif. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how old are you at the present time? + +Mr. WORRELL. Twenty. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in California? + +Mr. WORRELL. I am not exactly sure. I was a little bitty old thing and +I think it was 2 or 3 years. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where did you move from California? + +Mr. WORRELL. From California we moved to Abilene, I think. + +Mr. SPECTER. Abilene, Tex.? + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And have you lived in Texas since that time? + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your marital status? + +Mr. WORRELL. Sir? + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you married or single? + +Mr. WORRELL. Single, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you live with your parents? + +Mr. WORRELL. My mother and sister. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how much schooling have you had? + +Mr. WORRELL. Eleven years. + +Mr. SPECTER. When did you end your schooling, if you have ended it? + +Mr. WORRELL. I ended it October of this year, I quit. + +Mr. SPECTER. What school were you going to at that time? + +Mr. WORRELL. Thomas Jefferson. + +Mr. SPECTER. High school? + +Mr. WORRELL. High school; yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Located in Dallas, Tex.? + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And were you in the 11th grade or had you completed the +11th grade? + +Mr. WORRELL. I was a senior. + +Mr. SPECTER. How were your grades in school? + +Mr. WORRELL. Average. + +(The Chief Justice entered the hearing room at this point.) + +Mr. SPECTER. How were you occupied or employed back on November 22, +1963? + +Mr. WORRELL. I was in school then. I skipped school to go there. + +Mr. SPECTER. You were attending Jefferson High School on that day or +were enrolled at that time? + +Mr. WORRELL. I was enrolled but I hadn't been going since October. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was there any special reason for your not going since +October? + +Mr. WORRELL. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Had you been employed anywhere from the time you stopped +going to school? + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. I was employed for El Capitan Oil Drilling out +in Kermit, Tex. + +Mr. SPECTER. What sort of work were you doing for them? + +Mr. WORRELL. I was a floor man on a derrick. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you say floor man? + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. On November 22, 1963, were you working on that day for +your employer? + +Mr. WORRELL. No. I didn't start this oil job until--it was the last of +January. + +Mr. SPECTER. Of 1964? + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And are you working for them at the present time? + +Mr. WORRELL. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Whom are you working for now? + +Mr. WORRELL. I am not employed now. + +Mr. SPECTER. Then going back to November 22, 1963, you had no job at +that time? + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you attend school that day at all? + +Mr. WORRELL. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline for us briefly what your activities were +from the time you awakened until about noon time on November 22? + +Mr. WORRELL. Well, I got up about, well, I got up at my usual time, +about 6:30. I was going to go to school that day but I decided to go +see the President and my mother left about 7:30, and my sister left +about a quarter of 8. I left about 8, and hitchhiked down to Love Field +and got there. It took me quite a while to get there, about 9, and just +messed around there until the President come in, whatever time that +was. And then I didn't get to see him good at all. So, I caught a bus +and went over, went downtown and I just, I don't know, happened to +pick that place at the Depository, and I stood at the corner of Elm and +Houston. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you leave Love Field before the President did? + +Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Why did you happen to leave Love Field before he left? + +Mr. WORRELL. Well, so I could see him better. + +Mr. SPECTER. Couldn't you get a good view of him at Love Field? + +Mr. WORRELL. No, I just saw him off the plane and I figured that I +wasn't going to see him good so I was going to get a better place to +see him. + +Mr. SPECTER. How did you travel from Love Field down to Elm and Houston? + +Mr. WORRELL. Bus. No, no; I just traveled so far on the bus. I went +down to Elm, and took a bus from there. I went down as far as, I don't +know where that bus stops, anyway I got close to there and I walked the +rest of the way. + +Mr. SPECTER. What time, to the best of your recollection, did you +arrive at the intersection of Elm and Houston? + +Mr. WORRELL. Well, about 10, 10:30, 10:45, something around there. +There weren't many people standing around there then. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, about how long before the Presidential motorcade +came to Elm and Houston did you get there? + +Mr. WORRELL. An hour; an hour and a half. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure you were at Love Field when the President +arrived there? + +Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now I am going to show you a photograph which I +have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 359. Take a look at that, if you +would, please, and tell us whether or not you can identify what scene +that is? + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes, this is Elm, Pacific, and Commerce. This is the +Depository right here, and this is Stemmons, and this is the way the +President come down. + +Mr. SPECTER. So is that the assassination scene itself? + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now take a look at that picture and tell us where you +were standing--and I will give you a pencil so you can mark it on that +picture itself--at the time the Presidential motorcade came by. Mark +it with an "X," if you would, just exactly where you were standing, as +best as you can recollect it, at this moment, at the time the President +went by. + +Mr. WORRELL. Right underneath that window right there. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, how close were you standing to this building which I +will ask you to identify; first of all, what building is that? + +Mr. WORRELL. That is the Texas Depository. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. + +Now how close to that building were you standing? + +Mr. WORRELL. I was, I don't know, 4 or 5 feet out from it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you standing with your face to the building, with +your back to the building, or how? + +Mr. WORRELL. My back was to the building. + +Mr. SPECTER. I show you a photograph which has been identified as +Commission Exhibit 360 and I will ask you if you can identify what that +building is? + +Mr. WORRELL. That is the Depository. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. + +Now on this picture will you again, with an "X," mark where you were +standing as closely as you can recollect it. + +Mr. WORRELL. That car is in the way. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. Put the mark then right above where the car is, +indicating where you were standing on the sidewalk near that building. + +(Witness marking.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you observe the President's motorcade come by? + +Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Describe to us what you saw, heard, and observed at that +time, as the motorcade came by. + +Mr. WORRELL. Well, I saw him--I was standing looking--I don't know my +directions very well; anyway, I was looking down towards Elm Street +watching him come, and they filed by me---- + +Mr. SPECTER. On which street were you watching them come? + +Mr. WORRELL. This way. + +Mr. SPECTER. Look at Exhibit 359 and pick out which street they were on? + +Mr. WORRELL. They were coming down this way, so on and so forth. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, now, were they coming down Elm Street or were they +coming down Main Street with a right-hand turn on to Houston Street +with a curve on Houston down Elm, recollect it if you can? + +Mr. WORRELL. That is right. They did turn around. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did they come down---- + +Mr. WORRELL. I didn't see him up there. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where was the President's motorcade at the time you first +saw it? + +Mr. WORRELL. Oh, about right in here. + +Mr. SPECTER. Proceeding in this direction, indicating in a generally +northerly direction on Houston Street, right? + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes, north. + +Mr. SPECTER. Then tell us what the President's motorcade did? + +Mr. WORRELL. It turned and went down this way. + +Mr. SPECTER. Made a left-hand or right-hand turn? + +Mr. WORRELL. Left-hand turn. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did it pass right by in front of where you were standing? + +Mr. WORRELL. Within a hundred feet, I guess. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to get a pretty good view of the President's +motorcade? + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right; go ahead and tell us. + +Mr. WORRELL. Didn't get too good a view of the President either, I +missed out on there too. But as they went by, they got, oh at least +another 50, 75 feet on past me, and then I heard the shots. + +Mr. SPECTER. How many shots did you hear? + +Mr. WORRELL. Four. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe anything at about that time? + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir, I looked up and saw the rifle, but I would say +about 6 inches of it. + +Mr. SPECTER. And where did you see the rifle? + +Mr. WORRELL. I am not going--I am not too sure but I told the FBI it +was either in the fifth or the sixth floor on the far corner, on the +east side. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now looking at the picture which we have identified as +Commission Exhibit No. 360, which is where you have drawn an "X," can +you indicate the line of vision which you followed to the point where +the rifle was to the best of your ability to recollect? + +Mr. WORRELL. Well, when I heard the first shot it was too loud to be +a firecracker, I knew that, because there was quite a big boom, and I +don't know, just out of nowhere, I looked up like that, just straight +up. + +Mr. SPECTER. Indicating you looked straight back over your head, +raising your head to look over your body at the 90 degree angle? + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes; and I saw it for the second time and I looked back to +the motorcade. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe at that time? + +Mr. WORRELL. I saw about 6 inches of the gun, the rifle. It had--well +it had a regular long barrel but it had a long stock and you could only +see maybe 4 inches of the barrel, and I could see---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to observe any of the stock? + +Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. How much of the stock were you able to observe? + +Mr. WORRELL. Just very little, just about 2 inches. + +Mr. SPECTER. How many inches of the barrel then could you observe +protruding beyond the stock? + +Mr. WORRELL. About 4 inches, I would say, not very much. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, at the time of the second shot were you able to +observe anything at that precise instant? + +Mr. WORRELL. You mean as to firing it. + +Mr. SPECTER. As to anything at all. What did you see when the second +shot went off? + +Mr. WORRELL. Well, I looked to see where he was aiming and after the +second shot and I have seen the President slumping down in the seat, +and---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you see the President slump in his seat after the +second shot? + +Mr. WORRELL. Uh, huh. And about that---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you look up and see the rifle between the first and +the second shots? + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. And saw the firing on the second and then before +he could get a shot I was--I took in everything but especially the car, +the President's car, and saw him slumping, and I looked up again and +turned around and started running and saw it fire a third time, and +then---- + +Mr. SPECTER. When did you see it fire a third time, when you looked up, +the time you just described? + +Mr. WORRELL. When I was, I did it all in one motion, I looked up, +turned around and ran, pivoted. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you hear, if anything, after that? + +Mr. WORRELL. Just a lot of commotion, everybody was screaming and +saying "duck." + +Mr. SPECTER. After the third shot, did you hear a fourth shot? + +Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes. Just as I got to the corner of Exhibit 360, I +heard the fourth shot. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, did these four shots come close together or how +would you describe the timing in general on those? + +Mr. WORRELL. Succession. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were they very fast? + +Mr. WORRELL. They were right in succession. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now going back to the position of the rifle which you +testified that you saw, you say it was either on the fifth or sixth +floor? + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is there any way you can tell us which floor it was on, or +would the angle of your observation permit you to be sure it was the +fifth or sixth floors? + +Mr. WORRELL. I am not going to say I am positive, but that one there. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right, would you mark that one---- + +Mr. WORRELL. Because that right there, I feel, would have obstructed my +vision but I said it was either on the fifth or sixth floor. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, now, will you mark with a "Y" the window which you +have just pointed to? + +(At this point Chief Justice Warren departed the hearing room.) + +Mr. WORRELL. A "Y?" + +Mr. SPECTER. A "Y." + +(Witness marking.) + +Mr. SPECTER. You have marked the "Y" over two windows. Was it the +window--which window was it there as best you can recollect, as between +those two? + +Mr. WORRELL. I didn't mean to bring it down that far but this one. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you put an arrow then at the window that you have +just indicated, was the one where the rifle was protruding from? + +(Witness marking.) + +Mr. SPECTER. So, the sum of it is you are not sure whether it was the +fifth or the sixth floor, but you believe it was on the floor where you +have marked a "Y" which is the sixth floor and that was the line of +vision as you looked straight up over your head? + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where did you run, which is what you have just described +that you did next? + +Mr. WORRELL. Well, a better view of it is here in 360. I ran down +Houston Street alongside the building and then crossed over the street, +I ran alongside the building and crossed over, and in 359, I was +standing over here, and I saw this man come bustling out of this door. + +Mr. SPECTER. Before you get to that, Mr. Worrell, let me show you a +diagram which has been prepared here, which may be of some assistance +to you in telling us your movements in running. I will mark this as +Commission Exhibit 361 and ask Mr. David Belin, Staff Counsel, to make +a statement as to the preparation of this exhibit for the record. + +Mr. BELIN. The record will show that Exhibit 361 was prepared in the +exhibit section of the Federal Bureau of Investigation by Inspector +Leo. J. Gauthier and Eugene Paul Airy, exhibit specialist, with the +assistance of Charles D. Musser, illustrator, with particular reference +to showing the Texas School Book Depository Building, and the immediate +area with relation to the parking lot that employees used. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Worrell, take a good look at this. Study it for just +a moment in order to get your bearings on this particular map. This +is the Texas School Book Depository Building designated as such. This +is Houston Street and this is the direction I am indicating that the +motorcade, as you have described from the other exhibit, came from, a +generally northerly direction. This is generally north, and it made the +left-hand turn which you have already described for the record, onto +Elm Street Parkway going down the front there. + +Now perhaps the best place to start on this is with this red pencil, to +put a small "X" where you were standing on this map. + +Mr. WORRELL. Where I was standing? + +Mr. SPECTER. Where you were standing. + +(Witness marking.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Now will you describe your movement in running as you had +started to a few moments ago, indicating with a line of the red pencil +just exactly where you went and describe it as you go along. + +Mr. WORRELL. Well, as I said on the third shot I was looking up and +pivoting and turning to run at the same time. When I got here I heard +the fourth shot. + +Mr. SPECTER. Indicating that you were at that point right at the corner +of the building on Houston? + +Mr. WORRELL. Making a turn. + +Mr. SPECTER. Having moved slightly to your left, and beginning to make +a turn to go in a generally northerly direction on Houston Street? + +Mr. WORRELL. I thought that was north. + +Mr. SPECTER. No, this is north, there is a symbol showing which is +north. + +Mr. WORRELL. Okay. Then I turned the corner, went right down beside the +building on the sidewalk and when I got to the corner---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Corner of what? + +Mr. WORRELL. Of this building. + +Mr. SPECTER. Of the Texas School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do there? + +Mr. WORRELL. Cut directly across, kind of at an angle. + +Mr. SPECTER. Across Houston Street as you have drawn the red line there? + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes, and I rested there, I was out of breath, I smoke too +much, short winded. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark that "Y" where you stopped and rested and +tell us how long you stopped there? + +(Witness marking.) + +Mr. WORRELL. How long? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. WORRELL. I was there approximately 3 minutes before I saw this man +come out the back door here. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. + +Now will you put a "Z" where you first saw the man whom you have just +described or mentioned? + +Mr. WORRELL. It is here I am pretty sure, I am not positive. + +(Witness marking.) + +Mr. SPECTER. You are pretty sure--but you can't be positive--but you +are pretty sure? + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Okay. Now, describe as best you can the man whom you have +testified you saw at point "Z." + +Mr. WORRELL. Describe his appearance? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes. Start by telling us how tall he was, to the best of +your ability to recollect and estimate? + +Mr. WORRELL. To the--it is going to be within 3 inches, 5-7 to 5-10. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to his weight? + +Mr. WORRELL. 155 to 165. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to his height? + +Mr. WORRELL. 5-7, 5-10. + +Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me, your best estimate as to his age. + +Mr. WORRELL. Well, the way he was running, I would say he was in his +late twenties or middle--I mean early thirties. Because he was fast +moving on. + +Mr. SPECTER. Of what race was he? + +Mr. WORRELL. White. + +Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the characteristics of his hair? + +Mr. WORRELL. Black. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did he have---- + +Mr. WORRELL. Well, I will say brunette. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did he have a full head of hair, a partial head of hair, +or what? + +Mr. WORRELL. Well, see, I didn't see his face, I just saw the back +of his head and it was full in the back. I don't know what the front +looked like. But it was full in the back. + +Mr. SPECTER. What clothes did the man have on? + +Mr. WORRELL. Dark, like a jacket like that. + +Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a dark gray jacket? + +Mr. WORRELL. No, no. It was a jacket like that. + +Mr. SPECTER. A suit jacket? + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Or was it a sports jacket? + +Mr. WORRELL. Sports jacket. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did not have on matching coat and trousers? + +Mr. WORRELL. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was it dark in color or light? + +Mr. WORRELL. It was dark in color. I don't know whether it was blue, +black, or brown, but it was dark, and he had light pants. And that is +all I can say on his clothes, except his coat was open and kind of +flapping back in the breeze when he was running. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, are there any other distinguishing characteristics +that you can describe about him? + +Mr. WORRELL. Not a thing. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did he---- + +Mr. WORRELL. He wasn't holding nothing when he was running. He was just +running. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe him do, if anything? + +Mr. WORRELL. Well, when he ran out here, he ran along the side of the +Depository Building and then when he got---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Make a dotted line as to where he went, or take this black +pencil and make a line as to where he went. + +(Witness marking.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Where did you see him eventually go? + +Mr. WORRELL. Well, he went on further. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is that the last you saw him? + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did something come between you and him so that your +vision was obstructed? + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. As of the point you have just dotted out there? + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. What obstructed your view of him at that juncture or at +that point? + +Mr. WORRELL. I can't really be sure, it was a building, but the type of +building, I don't know. + +Mr. SPECTER. During the course of your seeing him, did you ever get a +view of his face? + +Mr. WORRELL. Oh, no, no. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. What did you do next, Mr. Worrell? + +Mr. WORRELL. Well, I went on down this way and headed up back to Elm +Street. + +Mr. SPECTER. Indicating you went on down to Pacific? + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And then proceeded---- + +Mr. WORRELL. No, no; that is wrong. I went on Pacific and---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Just a minute. You proceeded from point "Y" on in a +generally northerly direction to Pacific and then in what direction did +you go on Pacific, this would be in an easterly direction? + +Mr. WORRELL. I went east. + +Mr. SPECTER. You went in an easterly direction how many blocks down +Pacific? + +Mr. WORRELL. I went down to Market and from Market I went on Ross. + +Mr. SPECTER. You went left on Market down to Ross, and then? + +Mr. WORRELL. From Ross I went all the way to Ervay. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where were you heading for at that time? + +Mr. WORRELL. For the bus stop near my mother's office. And I rode the +bus from there out to the school and hitchhiked the rest of the way to +Farmers Branch. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. When did you first report to any official what +you had seen and heard on this occasion? + +Mr. WORRELL. Well, I turned the TV on early next morning to see what +had happened, and Chief Curry was making a plea---- + +Senator COOPER. Is that going to become a part of the evidence at this +point? + +Mr. WORRELL. Chief Curry was making a plea for anyone who had seen the +shooting, would they please come down and make a statement. So I called +the Farmer Branch police, and told them, and they come and picked me +up, and they called the Dallas police, and they come way out there and +picked me up and took me downtown to make a statement and brought me +back home. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Worrell, before we leave this Exhibit 361, are you +able to testify as to the accuracy of the scale drawing here which +represents the part of it that you have testified about, specifically +the presence of the Texas School Book Depository Building on the +northwest corner of Elm and Houston. Is that the accurate location of +that building? + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And is it an accurate reproduction of the intersection of +Elm and Houston leading into the parkway on Elm Street? + +Mr. WORRELL. As far as this? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes. + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. As far as all the parts you have testified about Elm and +Houston. Is it accurate that Pacific is one block in the northerly +direction away from Elm Street? + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And Ross is another block, generally, in a northerly +direction away from Pacific? + +Mr. WORRELL. No, Ross is over here. This is Record Street. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, first there is Elm, then there is Pacific, and then +there is Ross. Is that much accurate as the map shows it to be, is that +the way the streets are laid out? + +Mr. WORRELL. I think so. + +Mr. SPECTER. How about the general width of Houston Street in relation +to the general width of the Texas School Depository Building, is that +about right? + +Mr. WORRELL. I don't know, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right, that is fine. + +At the same time that we have marked Exhibit 361, Mr. Chairman, I would +like to use the next number in sequence, No. 362 to mark the other half +of this same exhibit which is designated Texas School Book Depository +floor plan of the first floor, which we will not use at this time, but +I would like to mark it in sequence. + +And at this time I ask that Commission Exhibits Nos. 359, 360, 361, and +362 be admitted into evidence. + +Senator COOPER. So ordered. Let those exhibits be admitted as part of +the evidence. + +(The documents referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. +359, 360, 361, and 362 were admitted into evidence.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Worrell, you had told us that you heard a plea by +Chief of Police Curry for all witnesses to come forward. + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And you heard that plea on the 23d of November? + +Mr. WORRELL. It was on Saturday. + +Mr. SPECTER. What action, if any, did you take in response to that +request? + +Mr. WORRELL. I called on the phone to the Farmers Branch police. + +Mr. SPECTER. You called who? + +Mr. WORRELL. The Farmers Branch police. + +Mr. SPECTER. I see. And what did you do then? + +Mr. WORRELL. Well, I told them what I had seen and they said, "Well, +stay there and we will come and get you." + +Mr. SPECTER. Did they come and get you? + +Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you then tell the police what you had seen and heard? + +Mr. WORRELL. I told a Lt. Butler what I had seen, and I don't know +if--they placed the call into the Dallas police and something like an +hour later they came to pick me up there. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you make a statement or take an affidavit on what you +had seen and heard? + +Mr. WORRELL. To the Dallas police? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes. + +Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes, sir. I made a statement and signed five of them. + +Mr. SPECTER. I will show you a paper which is marked Commission Exhibit +363 which purports to be an affidavit bearing your signature. + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Let me ask you first of all if that is your signature? + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And would you take just a minute, take your time and read +that affidavit over, please. + +Have you had a chance to read that over, Mr. Worrell? + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you tell us that you signed five different statements +or five copies of the same statement? + +Mr. WORRELL. Five copies of the same statement. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is this the statement which you signed in affidavit form +at that time? + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And---- + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. As you have just--have you had time to read it over just +now? + +Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is that statement accurate based on your current +recollection of the event? + +Mr. WORRELL. It is accurate down to, well, I changed my height to 5-8 +from 5-7. + +Mr. SPECTER. Aside from that minor variation, is it accurate in its +entirety; that is, is it all accurate? + +Mr. WORRELL. Well, I left out, when I was making my affidavit, I left +out, while I was running I heard a gun fire two more times. Well, as I +told you, I was turning the corner when I heard it and saw it fire the +third time, and then the fourth. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, are there any other additions or modifications +that you would like to make from the contents of your statement in +accordance with your recollection at this moment? + +Mr. WORRELL. I can't verify that--the time they got here because I am +not too sure of that. + +Mr. SPECTER. You are not sure of that now? + +Mr. WORRELL. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. + +Are there any other modifications that you would want to make in the +contents of the statement? + +Mr. WORRELL. Leave out firecracker. It sounded, it was too loud for a +firecracker. + +Mr. SPECTER. Your current recollection is that it was too loud for a +firecracker? + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other respect in which your current +recollection differs from this affidavit? + +Mr. WORRELL. Instead of looking I ran, I looked up. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other respect in which your current +recollection differs from the affidavit? + +Mr. WORRELL. Well, I left out on the barrel of the rifle, I left out +part of the stock. I didn't recollect that at that time. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other aspect in which your current +recollection differs from the facts set forth in this affidavit? + +Mr. WORRELL. Well, everything else is O.K. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the length of time +between the first shot and the last shot which you heard? + +Mr. WORRELL. The best estimate 5, 6 seconds. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to, been interviewed by or given a +statement to any Federal agent? + +Mr. WORRELL. The FBI down at Dallas. + +Mr. SPECTER. How many times have you seen the FBI agents? + +Mr. WORRELL. Once. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect the names of the agents you saw? + +Mr. WORRELL. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect when it was that you saw those agents? + +Mr. WORRELL. It was on that Saturday, the 23d. + +Mr. SPECTER. And where were you when you saw them? + +Mr. WORRELL. In the Dallas Police Station. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long did that interview last? + +Mr. WORRELL. Thirty minutes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you sign a statement for them? + +Mr. WORRELL. I just signed it for the Dallas police. They didn't have +me sign anything. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed by any other Federal agent or +representative? + +Mr. WORRELL. Well, Mr. Sorrels interviewed me when he called me and +asked me some questions when he called me up Wednesday night, I guess +it was. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was that in relationship to your coming here to this +Commission hearing? + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. What sort of questions did Mr. Sorrels ask you? + +Mr. WORRELL. What I saw. And I told him. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was that just on the telephone? + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. How long did that conversation last? + +Mr. WORRELL. Not very long. He talked to my mother first. He talked to +her for 15 minutes, something like this. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was he talking to her about what you saw or about travel +arrangements to get you here? + +Mr. WORRELL. I don't know. I was watching television, I didn't know +even who she was talking to. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. Aside from that conversation with Mr. Sorrels +and the interview you have had with the FBI, have you ever talked with +any agent or representative of the Federal Government. + +Mr. WORRELL. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any police official of Dallas or the +State of Texas after you gave this affidavit? + +Mr. WORRELL. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Based on seeing only the back of this man, were you ever +able to make any identification of him? + +Mr. WORRELL. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chairman, I move for the admission into evidence of +the other exhibit which we have used with Mr. Worrell being Commission +Exhibit No. 362. + +Senator COOPER. The exhibit will be admitted to evidence. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 362 for +identification and received in evidence.) + +Mr. SPECTER. That concludes our questions. + +Senator COOPER. You stated that, I believe, you looked up after you had +heard the first report? + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. You looked up and saw the barrel of a rifle, and then +the rifle fired. What made you know that it fired? + +Mr. WORRELL. Pardon? + +Senator COOPER. How did you know it was fired when you were looking at +it? + +Mr. WORRELL. Well, I saw what you might call a little flame and smoke. + +Senator COOPER. You saw something that came out of the barrel? + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Were you looking at it when you heard the third report? + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir, looking at it, turning around and started to run. + +Senator COOPER. Did you see anything then? + +Mr. WORRELL. Same thing, a little flash of fire and then smoke. I +didn't see it on the fourth one. + +Senator COOPER. Did you only look at the car in which the President was +riding one time when you said you saw him slump? + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Did you look back at the President's car then? + +Mr. WORRELL. No, sir. I didn't do that because I mean I didn't know if +there was one or more guns, because I wondered why if it was in such +rapid succession being a bolt action, I found out later, and I didn't +know what was coming off, so I was running to the back of the building +because I figured that would be the safest place. + +Senator COOPER. Did you see anyone in the windows, in the Texas +Depository Building? + +Mr. WORRELL. No, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Did you notice where this man you have described later +as running away from the building, did you see him come out of the +building? + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Where? + +Mr. WORRELL. At the back entrance. Approximately where I put the mark +"Z." + +Senator COOPER. Was he running all the time you saw him? + +Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir, he sure was. + +Senator COOPER. That is all. + +Mr. WRIGHT. Prior to hearing the first shot, had you looked up at the +School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. WORRELL. No, sir; I sure didn't. + +Mr. WRIGHT. That is all. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to observe the direction of the barrel which +you have described? + +Mr. WORRELL. Pointing right down at the motorcade. + +Mr. SPECTER. Any special part of the motorcade? + +Mr. WORRELL. I mean, I couldn't really say that because it was too high +up and he could have been pointing at anyone of the cars. I mean I +couldn't tell from where I was standing. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was it on the part of the motorcade which had turned down +Elm Street or on the part of the motorcade that was still on Houston or +what? + +Mr. WORRELL. It was the part that was turned down Elm Street. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Worrell, we have a report of the Federal Bureau of +Investigation which contains a purported interview with you, designated +as report of Robert P. Gemberling dated November 30, 1963, which has +this statement: + +"He"--referring to you--"stated that last night when he saw photographs +of Lee Harvey Oswald on television he felt this was the person he had +seen running away from the building. He stated this person did not look +back but he was certain this was a white person since he had a profile +view." + +My question, first of all, to you: Did you have a profile view of the +man who ran away from the building that you described? + +Mr. WORRELL. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. The second question is, did you tell the FBI that you had +a profile view? + +Mr. WORRELL. No, sir, I sure didn't. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you tell the FBI agent who interviewed you, that you +felt that this person was Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. WORRELL. I don't know if I did or not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anyone else leave the building, that is the +Texas School Book Depository Building, except the man you have already +described to us? + +Mr. WORRELL. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. + +Senator COOPER. Are there any further questions? I believe we will +stand in recess until 2 o'clock. + +(Whereupon, at 1:10 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +Afternoon Session + +TESTIMONY OF AMOS LEE EUINS + + +The President's Commission reconvened at 2:15 p.m. + +The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will come to order. + +Amos, will you stand up, please, and raise your right hand? + +Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this +Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated. How old are you? + +Mr. EUINS. Sixteen. + +The CHAIRMAN. All right. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, should we start by reading the purpose? + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes. I think you received a copy of this statement. But I +just want to say to you that the purpose of today's hearing is to hear +the testimony of Arnold Louis Rowland, James Richard Worrell, Robert +H. Jackson, and yourself who were in the vicinity of the assassination +scene on November 22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask you facts +concerning your knowledge of the assassination of President Kennedy. + +You understand that? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes. + +The CHAIRMAN. All right. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us your full name for the record, please? + +Mr. EUINS. Amos Lee Euins. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your exact date of birth, Amos? + +Mr. EUINS. January 10, 1948. + +Mr. SPECTER. January 10, 1948? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And are you a school boy at the present time? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. What school do you go to? + +Mr. EUINS. Franklin D. Roosevelt. + +Mr. SPECTER. What grade are you in at that school? + +Mr. EUINS. The ninth. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you live with your parents, Amos? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. How is your health generally? + +Mr. EUINS. I guess it is all right. + +Mr. SPECTER. How are your eyes? + +Mr. EUINS. They are all right. + +Mr. SPECTER. Can you see good at a distance? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, I can see good at a distance, but I can't see at real +close range. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to read without glasses? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. You don't use glasses for any purposes, then? + +Mr. EUINS. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. When you say you have trouble at close range, just what do +you mean by that? + +Mr. EUINS. You know, like I put something on real close. + +Mr. SPECTER. Indicating about 4 or 5 inches from your eyes? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. And then they kind of get dim. But on a long +scene, I can see good. + +Mr. SPECTER. How are your grades in school, Amos? + +Mr. EUINS. They are all right. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are they better than average, or what? + +Mr. EUINS. They are about average. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. + +Going back to November 22, 1963, that is last year, Amos, do you recall +what you were doing early on that morning? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. When I first got up, I went to school. Then about +11:30, well, the teachers called us and told us the ones that wanted +to go downtown to see the President come down to the office and get an +excuse and they could go. So I went down to the office, and I got an +excuse, so I went downtown. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what time did you leave school? + +Mr. EUINS. 11:30. + +Mr. SPECTER. And where did you go from your school? + +Mr. EUINS. Downtown. + +Mr. SPECTER. What part of downtown? + +Mr. EUINS. Right over by the county jail. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the names of those streets, Amos? + +Mr. EUINS. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. If I told you they were Elm and Houston, would that help +your memory as to what the names of those streets were? + +Mr. EUINS. It was right by the freeway. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. Let me show you a photograph, Amos, which is on +a document I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 365. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 365 for +identification.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Take just a minute and look at that, and see if you can +recognize where that is. + +Mr. EUINS. This is going across the railroad tracks, back up to +here--right here at the corner is the Book Depository Building. + +Mr. SPECTER. That is the Book Depository Building, you say? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. + +Why don't you just put an "X" with this pencil on the Book Depository +Building, as you identify it there, Amos--on the building itself. + +(Witness marking.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you somewhere in that area when the President's +motorcade went by? + +Mr. EUINS. I was right here. + +Mr. SPECTER. Why don't you take this black pencil and put an "A" right +where you were, Amos. + +(Witness marking.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, what time did you get to the place where you have +marked with an "A"? + +Mr. EUINS. Oh, I would say around about 15 minutes or something like +that to 12, because my mother brought me down there. + +Mr. SPECTER. She drove you down, did she? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you with anybody when you came to that spot, or +did your mother leave you off there by yourself? + +Mr. EUINS. She left me. She had to go on to work. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, about how long was it after you got there that the +motorcade came by? + +Mr. EUINS. Oh, I would say about--I had been there about 15, maybe 20 +minutes. It come around the corner, come on around. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. + +Amos, I want to show you another picture here that I have marked as +Commission Exhibit No. 366. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 366 for +identification.) + +Mr. SPECTER. I ask you if you can recognize what that building is. + +Mr. EUINS. This here is the Book Depository Building. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. + +Now, look back over here at 365. Can you tell us which direction the +President's motorcade came from on this picture? + +Mr. EUINS. It come from right in here. + +Mr. SPECTER. First of all, do you know what the name of this street is? +Would that be Main Street, in Dallas? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; I think so. + +Mr. SPECTER. Coming down Main Street, indicating in a general westerly +direction. Turning which way? + +Mr. EUINS. This way. + +Mr. SPECTER. Turned right. + +Do you know if that is Houston Street? + +Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show the witness is identifying a street +heretofore identified as Houston. + +Then which way did the motorcade go after proceeding in a general +northerly direction on Houston? + +Mr. EUINS. It come this way, turn. + +Mr. SPECTER. Which way--right or left? + +Mr. EUINS. It turned to the left, coming down, going on. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the name of the street it turned onto when it +made the left turn? + +Mr. EUINS. I was just trying to keep an eye on the President. + +Mr. SPECTER. The witness has identified a street heretofore identified +as Elm Street. + +Tell us what you saw as the motorcade went by. + +Mr. EUINS. I was standing here on the corner. And then the President +come around the corner right here. And I was standing here. And I was +waving, because there wasn't hardly no one on the corner right there +but me. I was waving. He looked that way and he waved back at me. And +then I had seen a pipe, you know, up there in the window, I thought it +was a pipe, some kind of pipe. + +Mr. SPECTER. When had you first seen that thing you just described as a +pipe? + +Mr. EUINS. Right as he turned the corner here. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, exactly where did you see that thing you have +described as a pipe come from. And take a good look now before you tell +us where it was. + +Mr. EUINS. Right here. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you mark an "X" on Exhibit No. 366 where you saw +the pipe? Mark the exact window, if you can, Amos. + +(Witness marking.) + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. + +Proceed to tell us what happened, Amos. + +Mr. EUINS. Then I was standing here, and as the motorcade turned the +corner, I was facing, looking dead at the building. And so I seen this +pipe thing sticking out the window. I wasn't paying too much attention +to it. Then when the first shot was fired, I started looking around, +thinking it was a backfire. Everybody else started looking around. +Then I looked up at the window, and he shot again. So--you know this +fountain bench here, right around here. Well, anyway, there is a little +fountain right here. I got behind this little fountain, and then he +shot again. + +So after he shot again, he just started looking down this, you know. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who started looking down that way? + +Mr. EUINS. The man in the window. I could see his hand, and I could see +his other hand on the trigger, and one hand was on the barrel thing. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. + +Now, at the time the second shot was fired, where were you looking then? + +Mr. EUINS. I was still looking at the building, you know, behind +this--I was looking at the building. + +Mr. SPECTER. Looking at anything special in the building? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. I was looking where the barrel was sticking out. + +Mr. SPECTER. How many shots did you hear altogether? + +Mr. EUINS. I believe there was four, to be exact. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, where were you looking at the time of the third shot, +if you remember? + +Mr. EUINS. After he shot the first two times, I was just standing +back here. And then after he shot again, he pulled the gun back in +the window. And then all the police ran back over here in the track +vicinity. + +Mr. SPECTER. Slow down just a little bit in what you are telling us. + +When the second shot occurred, were you still standing at the point +where you marked with an "A" on 365? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. But I was right behind this little---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you a little bit behind of where that "A" is? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; right back here. + +Mr. SPECTER. Let's mark that with a "B," where you were at the time the +second shot occurred. + +(Witness marking.) + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. + +Now, when the third shot occurred, Amos, let me ask you again, where +were you looking then? + +Mr. EUINS. I was still down here, looking up at the building. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you see in the building? + +Mr. EUINS. I seen a bald spot on this man's head, trying to look out +the window. He had a bald spot on his head. I was looking at the bald +spot. I could see his hand, you know the rifle laying across in his +hand. And I could see his hand sticking out on the trigger part. And +after he got through, he just pulled it back in the window. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him pull it back in the window? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And were you still standing at point B? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. When he pulled it back in the window? + +Mr. EUINS. I was still behind here, yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where were you when you heard what you described as the +fourth shot? + +Mr. EUINS. The first shot I was standing here. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now you are referring to 366. Put an "L" on 366 where you +were standing at the first shot. + +Mr. EUINS. Right here. + +(Witness marking.) + +Mr. EUINS. And then as I looked up there, you know, he fired another +shot, you know, as I was looking. So I got behind this fountain thing +right in there, at this point B. + +Mr. SPECTER. At point B on 365? + +Mr. EUINS. I got behind there. And then I watched, he did fire again. +Then he started looking down towards my way, and then he fired again. + +Mr. SPECTER. The question I have for you now is where were you when he +fired on that fourth time. + +Mr. EUINS. I was still behind point B. + +Mr. SPECTER. You were still at point B when he fired the fourth time? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. Then he pulled the gun back in the window. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him pull the gun back in the window after the +fourth shot? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes; he just come back like this. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you watch what he did after that? + +Mr. EUINS. No, sir; because after he had pulled it back in the window, +I ran this way, and went across the tracks. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. + +You start on Exhibit 365, and put the black mark and show us the path +of where you ran on 365. + +Mr. EUINS. I was here at "B." + +(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) + +(Witness marking.) + +Mr. EUINS. I was coming down like this here, and there was a policeman, +you know there is a little cut you can come through there. There was a +policeman standing right around here. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where was the policeman standing? Mark that with point +"C," Amos. + +Mr. EUINS. Right there. + +(Witness marking.) + +Mr. SPECTER. You ran past the policeman standing at point C? + +Mr. EUINS. No, sir. You see, I come from point B, and ran here, and +told the policeman I had seen the shot, because they were looking at +the railroad tracks. So he put me on the cycle and he went to here. + +Mr. SPECTER. He put you on the cycle and took you where? + +Mr. EUINS. Up to the front of the building. + +Mr. SPECTER. The Texas School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; and then he called some more cars. They got all +around the building. And then the policemen came from the tracks, and +they got around the building. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you see the policemen come from the tracks to go +around the building? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. About how many policemen were there, would you say, Amos? + +Mr. EUINS. There was about 14 or something like that. They were coming +from the tracks here. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what the name of that policeman was, who was +in that position where you have marked C? + +Mr. EUINS. No, sir. He was kind of an old policeman. I ran down and got +him. And he ran up here. + +Mr. SPECTER. You mean---- + +Mr. EUINS. The Book Depository Building. + +Then he called some more cars. They got all the way around the +building. And then after that, well, he seen another man. Another man +told him he seen a man run out the back. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who that man was who said somebody ran out the +back? + +Mr. EUINS. No, sir. He was a construction man working back there. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you there when the man talked about somebody running +out the back? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. He said the man had--he said he had kind of bald +spot on his head. And he said the man come back there. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what the name of the man was who told the +police that someone had run out the back? + +Mr. EUINS. . No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next, Amos? + +Mr. EUINS. So then they took me over to the county jail. And that is +where I told them what happened. And then they was standing around the +Book Depository Building, and I stayed over there to the jailhouse +about 6 o'clock. And then they took me home. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did they question you about what happened and what you +observed on that occasion? + +Mr. EUINS. At the jailhouse? + +Mr. SPECTER. At the jailhouse. + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. + +Amos, would you tell us everything that you can remember about what you +saw about the gun itself? + +Mr. EUINS. Well, when I first got here on the corner, the President was +coming around the bend. That is when--I was looking at the building +then. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did you think it was when you first saw it? + +Mr. EUINS. I thought it was a piece of pipe or something sticking out +the window. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did it look like it was a piece of metal to you? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; just a little round piece of pipe. + +Mr. SPECTER. About an inch in diameter, would you say? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how long was the piece of pipe that you saw? + +Mr. EUINS. It was sticking out about that much. + +Mr. SPECTER. About 14 or 15 inches? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. And then after I seen it sticking out, after +awhile, that is when I heard the shot, and everybody started looking +around. + +Mr. SPECTER. At that time, Amos, did you see anything besides the end +of the pipe? + +Mr. EUINS. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. For example, you didn't see anything about a stock or any +other part of the rifle? + +Mr. EUINS. No, sir--not with the first shot. You see, the President was +still right along down in here somewhere on the first shot. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, when you saw it on the first occasion, did you think +it was a rifle then? Or did that thought enter your mind? + +Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I wasn't thinking about it then. But when I was +looking at it, when he shot, it sounded like a high-powered rifle, +after I listened to it awhile, because I had been in the NDCC for about +a year. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is NDCC? + +Mr. EUINS. We call it a military army for the boys, at our school. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is that ROTC? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. ROTC. And have you had any opportunity to fire a weapon in +that ROTC class? + +Mr. EUINS. No, sir; not outside of just .22's. We fire them on the +firing range. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. + +Now, when you looked up at the rifle later, you described seeing some +of the trigger part. + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, describe as fully as you can for us what you saw +then, Amos. + +Mr. EUINS. Well, when he stuck it out, you know--after the President +had come on down the street further, you know he kind of stuck it out +more, you know. + +Mr. SPECTER. How far was it sticking out of the window would you say +then, Amos? + +Mr. EUINS. I would say it was about something like that. + +Mr. SPECTER. Indicating about 3 feet? + +Mr. EUINS. You know--the trigger housing and stock and receiver group +out the window. + +Mr. SPECTER. I can't understand you, Amos. + +Mr. EUINS. It was enough to get the stock and receiving house and the +trigger housing to stick out the window. + +Mr. SPECTER. The stock and receiving house? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, what direction was the rifle pointing? + +Mr. EUINS. Down--what did you say--Elm? + +Mr. SPECTER. Elm Street? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; down Elm. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was it pointing in the direction of the President? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, could you see anything else on the gun? + +Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I could not. + +Mr. SPECTER. For example, could you see whether or not there was a +telescopic lens on the gun? + +Mr. EUINS. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, is there anything else about the gun that you can +describe to us that you have not already told us about? + +Mr. EUINS. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, what kind of a look, if any, did you have at the man +who was there? + +Mr. EUINS. All I got to see was the man with a spot in his head, +because he had his head something like this. + +Mr. SPECTER. Indicating his face down, looking down the rifle? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; and I could see the spot on his head. + +Mr. SPECTER. How would you describe that man for us? + +Mr. EUINS. I wouldn't know how to describe him, because all I could see +was the spot and his hand. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was he slender or was he fat? + +Mr. EUINS. I didn't get to see him. + +Mr. SPECTER. Could you tell from where you looked whether he was tall +or short? + +Mr. EUINS. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Of what race was he, Amos? + +Mr. EUINS. I couldn't tell, because these boxes were throwing a +reflection, shaded. + +Mr. SPECTER. Could you tell whether he was a Negro gentleman or a white +man? + +Mr. EUINS. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Couldn't even tell that? But you have described that he +had a bald---- + +Mr. EUINS. Spot in his head. Yes, sir; I could see the bald spot in his +head. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, could you tell what color hair he had? + +Mr. EUINS. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Could you tell whether his hair was dark or light? + +Mr. EUINS. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. How far back did the bald spot on his head go? + +Mr. EUINS. I would say about right along in here. + +Mr. SPECTER. Indicating about 2-1/2 inches above where your hairline +is. Is that about what you are saying? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; right along in here. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you get a very good look at that man, Amos? + +Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to tell anything about the clothes he was +wearing? + +Mr. EUINS. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, when you were at the sheriff's department in the +police station that you have described, did they ask you to sign an +affidavit or statement for them, Amos? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a paper, Amos, which I have marked as +Commission Exhibit No. 367. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 367 for +identification.) + +Mr. SPECTER. This is supposed to be a statement which is signed. Let me +first point out to you that it is a copy of it. I ask you if this is a +copy of your signature? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. + +Now, will you take your time, Amos, and read that over, and then I want +to ask you a couple of questions about it. + +Did you have a chance to read it over? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. + +Let me ask you about a couple of specific things here, Amos. + +In the statement you say here that he was a white man. By reading the +statement, does that refresh your memory as to whether he was a white +man or not? + +Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I told the man that I could see a white spot on his +head, but I didn't actually say it was a white man. I said I couldn't +tell. But I saw a white spot in his head. + +Mr. SPECTER. Your best recollection at this moment is you still don't +know whether he was a white man or a Negro? All you can say is that you +saw a white spot on his head? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Then, did you tell the people at the police station that +he was a white man, or did they make a mistake when they wrote that +down here? + +Mr. EUINS. They must have made a mistake, because I told them I could +see a white spot on his head. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, is there anything else in this statement, Amos, which +is different from the way you remember this event, as you are sitting +here right now? + +Amos, did you understand the last question? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you answer it for us? + +Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I don't think there is. + +Mr. SPECTER. I don't understand you, Amos. The question I am trying to +get at it, as you read that statement over now, you have testified or +told us here today what you remember about this assassination? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And I am asking you, when you read that statement over, +is there anything on that statement which you think is wrong, based on +what you remember right now? + +For example, you told us that they were wrong when they wrote down that +you identified him as a white man. Were they wrong about anything else +that they wrote down? + +Mr. EUINS. Not that I can see. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. + +When you looked up and saw this man, Amos, did he have on a hat? + +Mr. EUINS. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any boxes behind him at that time, Amos? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; there were some boxes, you know, all the side of +the window. Like this window--there were some boxes in these windows up +here. + +Mr. SPECTER. You saw some boxes in these windows? + +Mr. EUINS. In these windows, and these windows, and there was boxes in +half of this one. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. + +Now, mark the windows where you saw those boxes, Amos. Start off +with--mark the window "Y" where you saw boxes. + +(Witness marking.) + +Mr. SPECTER. You made a figure 9, as I read it, on the two places you +saw boxes in the windows. + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; in this half. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, were there boxes in the window marked "X"? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. There were about two or three of them right along +here. + +Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the middle dividing line there? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Was that window marked "X" opened, Amos, or closed? + +Mr. EUINS. It was open. + +Mr. SPECTER. How far open was it? + +Mr. EUINS. About that high. + +Mr. SPECTER. Indicating about 19 inches? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And was the window in the other double window immediately +next to the window marked "X" open or closed? + +Mr. EUINS. The top window, on the sixth floor? + +Mr. SPECTER. I am referring to the window right next to it. + +Mr. EUINS. No, sir; it was not open. + +Mr. SPECTER. Amos, when you heard the first shot, did you have any +reaction or impression as to where the noise was coming from at that +exact time? + +Mr. EUINS. No, sir; not at the exact time. You know, because everybody +else started looking around. So I just started looking around, thinking +it was a backfire, just like everyone else. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you look up towards that window before the second +shot, or just when the second shot occurred? + +Mr. EUINS. I think--just a little before, because as soon as I did, I +looked at it--pow. + +Mr. SPECTER. You heard a pow? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, as you were watching and heard, did you have the +impression that the noise you heard was coming from that rifle? + +Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I didn't, because I wasn't thinking of the rifle at +first--you know, because it looked like a pipe at first. + +Mr. SPECTER. When you say the second--when you heard the second shot, +when you say you were looking at the rifle, did you have the feeling +that the noise came from the rifle when you heard the second shot, when +you were looking at it? + +Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I did not. + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, did you have any impression at all about where the +noise was coming from? + +Mr. EUINS. No, sir; not on the first shot. + +Mr. SPECTER. How about the second shot? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where did you think the noise was coming from on the +second shot? + +Mr. EUINS. I seen him shoot on the second shot. + +Mr. SPECTER. So you thought the noise was coming from the rifle on the +second shot? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. Did you say you thought, or saw? + +Mr. EUINS. I saw him shoot the second shot. + +Mr. SPECTER. How high were those boxes behind him, Amos? + +Mr. EUINS. They was probably about 2 feet high stacked in the back of +him. + +Mr. SPECTER. Amos, were you questioned later by the FBI? + +Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; over in the office. + +Mr. SPECTER. How many times were you questioned by the FBI? + +Mr. EUINS. Oh, once. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you remember when that was? + +Mr. EUINS. It was around about 2 or 3 o'clock. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you remember how many days after the assassination it +was? + +Mr. EUINS. About 4. + +Mr. SPECTER. You think they might have talked to you more than once? + +Mr. EUINS. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, I move for the admission into evidence +of the statement marked Commission Exhibit 367. + +The CHAIRMAN. That may be admitted. + +(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission +Exhibit No. 367 was received in evidence.) + +Mr. SPECTER. That concludes the questioning I have, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Wright? + +Mr. WRIGHT. Nothing further, Mr. Chief Justice. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, I would like to move for the admission +into evidence of all the exhibits here--365, 366, as well as 367. + +The CHAIRMAN. Very well. + +(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission +Exhibits Nos. 365 and 366, were received in evidence.) + +The CHAIRMAN. Amos, you may be excused, then. Thank you very much for +coming and helping us out with your testimony. + +We will recess until tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock. + + + + +_Wednesday, March 11, 1964_ + +TESTIMONY OF BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER, LINNIE MAE RANDLE, AND CORTLANDT +CUNNINGHAM + +The President's Commission met at 9:45 a.m. on March 11, 1964, at 200 +Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. + +Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman +Cooper and Representative Gerald R. Ford, members. + +Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Joseph A. Ball, +assistant counsel; David W. Belin, assistant counsel; Albert E. Jenner, +Jr., assistant counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; Norman +Redlich, assistant counsel; Charles Murray and Lewis E. Powell, Jr., +observers. + + +TESTIMONY OF BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER + +The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. + +Mr. BALL. I would like to assign Commission Exhibit No. 364 to a paper +sack which the FBI has identified as their C-109 Exhibit. That will be +the Commission's Exhibit No. 364 for identification at this time. + +The CHAIRMAN. All right. + +(The paper sack referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 364 for +identification.) + +Mr. BALL. Also for the record I would like to announce that prior +to--this morning, Mr. Cortlandt Cunningham and Charles Killion of the +Federal Bureau of Investigation laboratory, the Ballistics Division, +Firearms Division, I guess it is, broke down, that is unscrewed +Commission Exhibit No. 139, an Italian rifle, and that rifle has been +placed in, after being disassembled, has been placed in Commission's +No. 364 for identification, that paper sack. + +The CHAIRMAN. All right. + +Mr. BALL. We have also here before the Commission, Commission No. 142 +which is a paper sack which is identified as the FBI's Exhibit No. 10. +I think that has its number, exhibit number on it. + +I have been informed that was 142. My notes show that the brown paper +sack is 142. + +I think we can call the witness now. + +The CHAIRMAN. All right; would you call Mr. Frazier, please. + +Raise your right hand to be sworn, please. + +Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this +Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I do. + +The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Joseph Ball of our staff will examine you, Mr. +Frazier, but I would like to read a very short statement concerning the +purpose of the meeting. + +The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Buell Wesley +Frazier, and Linnie Mae Randle. The Commission has been advised that +these two witnesses have stated that they saw Lee Harvey Oswald on the +morning of November 22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask these +witnesses questions concerning their knowledge of the assassination of +President Kennedy. + +You have a copy of this, have you not? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. All right, you may proceed, Mr. Ball. + +Mr. BALL. You call yourself Buell or Wesley? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I go by Wesley. + +Mr. BALL. Well, Wesley, what is your age? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Sir? + +Mr. BALL. What is your age? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Nineteen. + +Mr. BALL. Where do you live? + +Mr. FRAZIER. For the time being I am living in Irving now. + +Mr. BALL. Irving, Tex.? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What is the address where you live? + +Mr. FRAZIER. 2439 West Fifth Street. + +Mr. BALL. Did you live there in November 1963? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. BALL. And who lives in that house with you? + +Mr. FRAZIER. My sister and brother-in-law and their three children. + +Mr. BALL. Will you state their names, your sister's name? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Linnie Mae Randle and my brother-in-law. I believe his +real name is William Edward Randle. We call him Bill. They have three +little girls, Diana, Patricia and Caroline Sue. + +Mr. BALL. Where does your mother live? + +Mr. FRAZIER. She lives in Huntsville. + +Mr. BALL. Where is that? + +Mr. FRAZIER. That is about 200 miles south of Dallas there. + +Mr. BALL. What is the name of the town? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Town, you mean where my mother lives? Huntsville. + +Mr. BALL. Huntsville? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; that is about, it is about 70, 80 miles north of +Houston. + +Mr. BALL. What is your mother's name? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Essie Mae Williams. + +Mr. BALL. Was she visiting you and your sister sometime in November +1963? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; she was. + +Mr. BALL. How long was she there? + +Mr. FRAZIER. She was there for, I believe, for a period of about 4 or 5 +weeks because my stepfather was with her and he got sick and they had +to put him in the hospital and he was in the hospital 3 or 4 weeks, +somewheres, 4 or 5 weeks because they were there a week before he got +sick. + +Mr. BALL. Then on November 21 and 22, living with you in this residence +at Irving, Tex., were your mother, Mrs. Williams, and your sister, +Linnie Mae Randle? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. And her husband and their three children? + +Mr. FRAZIER. That is right. + +Mr. BALL. Where do you work? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Work at Texas School Books. + +Mr. BALL. How long have you worked there? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I have been working there since September. + +Mr. BALL. September of 1963? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Correct. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do there? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I fill orders. + +Mr. BALL. How did you happen to get that job? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I went to see, first I come up there and started +looking for a job and couldn't find one myself so I went to one of +these employment agencies and through that a lady called up one +morning, I was fixing to go out and look for one, I was looking for +myself in the meantime when they were, too, and so she called up and +gave me a tip to it if I was interested in a job like that I could go +over there and see about that and for the time being I wasn't working +and needed some money and so I did and I went over there and saw Mr. +Truly, and he gave me an interview, and then he hired me the same day I +went over there. + +Mr. BALL. You say you came up, you mean you came up from Huntsville? + +Mr. FRAZIER. That is right; yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. That was in September 1963? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was. + +Mr. BALL. Looking for a job around Dallas? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go to live with your sister at that time? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. BALL. What--where is the employment agency and what is its name +when you first applied for a job? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I went to several but, see, this one got me this job +the main one was Massey, the employment agency, and it is over there on +Shady Grove Road. + +Mr. BALL. In Dallas? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; in Irving. + +Mr. BALL. How do you spell that name, the name of the employment agency? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Massey? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. FRAZIER. I believe it is M-a-s-s-e-y. + +Mr. BALL. And it was a woman at the employment agency that called you +and told you to go to see the Texas School Book Depository? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, right. + +Mr. BALL. And you went to see Mr. Truly and after an interview he gave +you a job? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Correct. + +Mr. BALL. Then you started work there about what date in September? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It was the 13th. I say that was the same day I went for +an interview. I went early enough that morning that he told me to come +back after lunch. + +Mr. BALL. And you are still working there? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. When Mr. Truly hired you did he tell you it would be a +full-time job or just a temporary job? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he told me that he was looking for somebody full +time and I told him, well, that is what I wanted, and so he said that +would be just fine. + +Mr. BALL. How much did he start to pay you? + +Mr. FRAZIER. He started me off with a dollar and a quarter an hour. + +Mr. BALL. That is for an eight-hour day? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. Five days a week. + +Mr. BALL. Did you commute back and forth from your sister's home in +Irving? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Over there to the Texas School Books? + +Mr. BALL. To the Texas School Book Depository. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. From the first day? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And you still do? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Do you own a car? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Your own car? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You had it, did you, when you started to work? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Still have it? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And you have been since September driving that car from your +sister's home in Irving over to the Texas School Book Depository? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Correct. + +Mr. BALL. Go there in the morning? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. What time do you get to work? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I get there around 8 o'clock. + +Mr. BALL. When do you quit? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I quit at 4:45. + +Mr. BALL. Then you drive home? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How long for lunch? + +Mr. FRAZIER. 45 minutes. + +Mr. BALL. Do all the employees have the same lunch hour? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Now, the ones who work down there filling book orders +around where I work now, so we all work the same hours. Some people +work up there in the offices, I hear that they come in a little bit +later. Now, I don't know for sure but I see primarily the ones who does +the same type of work I do, we all start the same time and work the +same time. + +Mr. BALL. Those are the people who fill the orders? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. How far is it in miles from your sister's home to Texas +School Book Depository? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It is roughly around 15 miles. + +Mr. BALL. And did you take the same route every day? + +Mr. FRAZIER. You mean since I have been going over there; since the +first day? + +Mr. BALL. That is right. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Up to now? + +Mr. BALL. Yes, right. + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't. + +You see, I found two ways, you can more judge by the traffic and you +can go some days one way and the traffic will be easier than others, +but most times I use just one route. + +Mr. BALL. What route did you usually use? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Used one like you go down from the house there. + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Go down and right Storey Road, see Fifth Street is just +one block off Storey Road, and just go down and hit Storey Road and +stay on it until you come to Stemmons Freeway and you stay right on +Stemmons until you come right on into Dallas there. + +Mr. BALL. About what length of time does it take you to go from your +sister's home to work in the morning? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Usually, I usually leave not any later than 7:25. I +usually try to leave about 7:20, and if you leave at 7:20, you usually +get around there, by the time you get down to the parking lot now it is +usually pretty close to 5 minutes to 8 and that gives you enough time +to walk to the Book Depository, put up your lunch and take off your +coat. + +Mr. BALL. Did you have a place to park your car? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Was it assigned to you by Mr. Truly? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he just said we had a parking lot there and +showed me where it was and said you can park in the parking lot. + +Mr. BALL. Was that the parking lot two or three blocks from the +building. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir, it is down there; right across from the +warehouse there. + +Mr. BALL. Then you would walk from there from that parking lot---- + +Mr. FRAZIER. Up to the other Depository up there at the corner of +Houston and Main. + +Mr. BALL. We have here a map which has been marked as Commission's +Exhibit No. 361. + +Mr. FRAZIER. I see. + +Mr. BALL. And north is to the bottom of the map. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Instead of the top, as usually the case. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. It has two pictures over here, one to the left and one to the +right of the map. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Let's take a look at the picture to the right of the map. Do +you recognize that area? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I do. + +Mr. BALL. What is it? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I see that is right there where you say that is the street +going up to the parking lot there. + +Mr. BALL. Do you recognize this car? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What car is that? + +Mr. FRAZIER. That is my car. + +Mr. BALL. Is that where you usually park every day? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I would say at the time being when I first started +to work there I first started to park there but now I park on the other +side of the fence there. + +Mr. BALL. But that is a picture of the parking lot, is it? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Where you park is in the parking lot? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. I park inside the fence but what I am talking +about--I park on the different side of the lot. + +Mr. BALL. Different side of the same lot? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; we just have one lot there. + +Mr. BALL. Do you see the Texas School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; right there. + +Mr. BALL. And you walked from about the place where your car is parked? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Usually up to the Depository Building? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right, correct. + +Mr. BALL. Now, the map to the left, upper left-hand corner of the map, +there is a picture. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Do you see this area where I point my finger which is marked +"parking lot No. 1." + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What is that? + +Mr. FRAZIER. That is the same parking lot we were looking at right here. + +Mr. BALL. What route do you walk, which way do you walk when you park +in this parking lot No. 1, to the Texas School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Do you want me to get up to where I can show it to you? + +Mr. BALL. Yes; show it to us. + +Mr. FRAZIER. I usually always come up, you know, you can come right, +you see the building right down here, and you notice a series of +railroad tracks, so usually early in the morning, now about 8 o'clock +there is usually not any cars right here, but I say they are switching +back and forth. + +Mr. BALL. By "cars" you mean railroad cars? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; they usually start switching around 8 o'clock. +Usually, there are not any cars, it is usually a long train that moves +up pretty soon but I usually move up in this direction here, especially +when it is dry. When it is wet I walk on this because it is harder. But +when it is raining, I usually walk around here, because in this area +right here, when you get up closer to the railroad tracks it has more +trenches, and it gets muddy and slimy and you can get bogged down. + +So, when it is bad weather, I usually walk on this side. But I say nine +times out of ten I come up right down here. + +Mr. BALL. Let's look at the map. Here is the parking lot here, is that +the parking lot where you usually park? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it is. + +Mr. BALL. This is parking lot No. 1. + +Mr. FRAZIER. That is parking lot No. 1, isn't it? + +Mr. BALL. Right. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. We will show you this map later, but just to illustrate, how +do you usually, what is the route you usually take, just show us on +the board here, the route you usually take to the Texas School Book +Depository Building in the morning? + +Mr. FRAZIER. You mean when I am coming off of the freeway? + +Mr. BALL. After you park here. + +Mr. FRAZIER. You know right here, you say like the car, you notice that +little house right there, I assume you have checked off. You know like +I was telling you now. I usually park over in this corner. But at the +time I parked right there. But anyway, there is a little cyclone fence +and this was the series of railroad tracks, I was talking to you about. + +Mr. BALL. That is right. + +Mr. FRAZIER. I usually come down here. + +Mr. BALL. Munger Street? + +Mr. FRAZIER. That is right, and usually cross along the railroad tracks +and come up here. + +Mr. BALL. Houston Street? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Houston runs into it, now they are doing some work across +the tracks and you can't go any further than the tracks, right along +here this line, cyclone, but that type of fence and I usually walk +right up, you know. + +Mr. BALL. To the buildings? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. And enter the rear of the building? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Now, we call it a loading zone out there, dock area. + +Mr. BALL. Fine. + +Did anyone else ride with you in the morning, usually did anyone else +ride with you in the morning from home to work? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Did anybody ride with you from work to home? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't. + +Mr. BALL. When did you first hear of Lee Harvey Oswald, first hear the +name? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I first heard, I never really did know his name, we just +called him Lee around there. But the first time I ever saw him was the +first day he come to work. + +Mr. BALL. Had you heard he was coming to work before he came to work? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I will say, you know, talking back and forth with the +bossman all the time and from being around and getting along real fine +and so he told me, I assume the day after he hired him that he was +going to have him come in on Monday and he asked me had I ever seen him +and I told him then no; I had never seen him. + +(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) + +Mr. BALL. Had your sister told you that this fellow Lee was coming to +work? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; she did. She said one afternoon when I went home she +told me she found out from one of the neighbors there he came over for +that interview with Mr. Truly and Mr. Truly had hired him. + +Mr. BALL. You heard that from your sister? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Before you saw him? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right, before I saw him. + +Mr. BALL. When you first saw him was it a Monday morning? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it was. + +Mr. BALL. Do you have any idea of the date itself, do you have any +memory of the date when you first saw him? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. BALL. Was it sometime around the middle of October, do you think, +would that be close to it? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It could have been because it was sometime in October +because I remember I went to work there on the 13th and I had been +working there, 4 or 5 weeks and then he come there. + +Mr. BALL. Where was he when you first saw him? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I first saw him he was--we have a table not as large as +this, but just about half as large as this, and we have just like you +walk up to it where I am sitting over here and we have four or five +boxes there and we have different names on it, you know, for different +publishing companies, and he was there getting some orders, and I say, +as well as I remember, I said, the foreman there was getting him out +some real easy orders. Some of the orders we have are real easy to +fill, easier than the others, you don't have to know so much about the +textbooks to be able to fill them and he was getting some of them easy +ones out to start on, when we have a great number of them, you see, the +little pamphlet type books and all we do is count them out and read the +invoice number. + +Mr. BALL. What was the name of the foreman showing him? + +Mr. FRAZIER. You mean the foreman, that was Mr. Shelly. + +Mr. BALL. S-h-e-d? + +Mr. FRAZIER. S-h-e-l-l-y. + +Mr. BALL. Shelly. + +What floor was this on? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It was on the first floor there. + +Mr. BALL. Did Shelly introduce you to him or did you go up and shake +hands with him? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. I remember, I knew, you know that he +was going to be coming to work so naturally I hadn't been there very +long, you know, living in Dallas and so I wanted to make friends with +everybody I could, because you know yourself friendship is something +you can't buy with money and you always need friends, so I went up and +introduced himself to myself, and he told me his name was Lee and I +said "We are glad to have you." + +We got talking back and forth and he come to find out I knew his wife +was staying down there at the time with this other woman and so I +thought he would go out there and I said, "Are you going to be going +home this afternoon?" + +And he told me then, he told me that he didn't have a car, you know, +and so I told him, I said, "Well, I live out there in Irving,"--I found +out he lived out there and so I said, "Any time you want to go just let +me know." + +So I thought he would go home every day like most men do but he told me +no, that he wouldn't go home every day and then he asked me could he +ride home say like Friday afternoon on weekends and come back on Monday +morning and I told him that would be just fine with me. + +I told him if he wanted a ride any other time just let me know before +I go off and leave him because when it comes to quitting time some of +these guys, you know, some of them mess around the bathroom and some of +them quit early and some of them like that and some leave at different +times than others. + +But I said from talking to him then, I say, he just wanted to ride home +on weekends with me and I said that was fine. + +Mr. BALL. Did he say at that time he was living in Dallas, he had a +room in Dallas? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he did. He had an apartment. + +Mr. BALL. Did he say where? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. He just said he had an apartment over +in Dallas. + +Mr. BALL. Had you known his wife before that? Had you ever met his +wife, Marina Oswald? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never had. + +Mr. BALL. Had you heard that a Russian girl was staying there in the +neighborhood? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say about this time I met him, you know, I knew +that at the time then but I didn't think anything about it because, you +know, the people travel from one country to the next all the time. + +Mr. BALL. Did you know Mrs. Paine, Ruth Paine? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't until all this had happened because I +will be frank with you, people around there, I say, they just don't +make friends very easy. I say you can have somebody living three doors +from you and you can live a couple of years and you still might not +know the name. + +Mr. BALL. And you had never met Mrs. Ruth Paine before the day you met +Lee Oswald? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of work did Lee do, what kind of work was assigned +to him? + +Mr. FRAZIER. He filled orders like I do and several other men. + +Mr. BALL. How many order fillers were there employed at that time? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, I would say roughly around five, six at that time. +Because about the time we was real busy, the busy season. I come there, +you know, and they was going pretty good when I went to work there and +I say we were still going pretty good when he come to work there. + +We had a lot of work to do and usually when we have a lot of work to do +we have more order fillers. + +Mr. BALL. Did he ride home with you in your car on weekends? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he did. + +Mr. BALL. On Friday nights. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. From that time until November 22, did he ride home with you +every weekend? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he did every weekend but one. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember that date? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. BALL. In the statement you made I believe you said it was the 16th +and 17th of November. I am just reminding you of that. + +Does it refresh your memory any? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I remember one weekend, I say, right now I can't recall +because just to be frank with you I couldn't tell you roughly; I say I +might have at that time but I say it slipped my mind but the thing is I +do know he rode home with me every weekend up to that but one. + +Mr. BALL. And why did--did he tell you why he wasn't going to ride home +that weekend? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, he did. He said he was working on his driving license +and he was going to go take a driving test. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever ask him afterward if he had taken his driver's +test? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never did. I assumed that he had taken it and +passed it what part of the test he was taking. + +Most men do, I say, they usually work at it, study at it good enough so +they don't flunk out. + +Representative FORD. Do you have to get a learner's permit in Texas +before you can get a driver's permit? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I say, you don't. Just two steps to it. I say, +first no matter what age you are; say, when you have to be at least 14 +is about the youngest you can get it in Texas and then you have to take +a DE, Driver's Education, if you are going to school but otherwise, +the age is 16 and you just go around to the driving license bureau +there, they have an office in most any town of any size in Texas, and +you just go in and see the driving license man and just tell him that +you plan to take your driving test and you would like to have the auto +manual, and the manual covers any laws and so forth in the State of +Texas, and you can either study for your operator's or your commercial +and you pick out which one you want, and you study up for it and then +he is there, he tells you what days he is in his office, and so he goes +there a certain time and he gives you several sheets of paper, a quiz +and you answer them questions, and if you--you have to make a grade of +70 on it to pass and if you make a grade of 70 or above, well, I say, +in another week or two you go down there and you say like for instance +if you are going to want a driver's license for a car---- + +Representative FORD. Did Lee ever ask you or did Lee ever tell you +whether he had ever actually applied for a driver's license? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he never had, except I told you that weekend that +he said he was going down to take his driving test, and so I knew from +being in the State of Texas that you have to know something; you have +to have the manuals and so forth to study up on it. Or there isn't any +use going down there if you don't know the rules because you are not +wasting any time but your own. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not one weekend that he didn't +go down with you but he rode back with you, say, on the Armistice Day +holiday? Do you remember? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. BALL. Your memory is that he went, he rode home with you every +Friday and came back the following Monday? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Except this one weekend? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right, that is what I say. If he went home with me on +Friday afternoon he always rode back with me on Monday morning. It +wasn't no added job when he would come with me on the weekend. He would +ride home with me on Friday and he would come back with me on Monday. + +Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you that he had or had not applied for a +driver's license? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No; he had not except he told me he was going down to take +it. + +Mr. BALL. He never told you that he had or had not? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No. + +Mr. BALL. And he never told you whether he had obtained a driver's +license? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to him on whether or not he could drive a +car, knew how to drive a car? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, I believe the first afternoon, the first time +we was going home and we were talking about that and he said he was +working on his driving license then, and then naturally like I told you +several weeks later, then he told me he was going to take his driving +test and I assumed he could drive a car being as old as he was because +most everybody in the State of Texas by the time you are my age if you +can't drive a car something is wrong with you. + +Mr. BALL. He did never say whether he could or couldn't? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Did he ever ask you about the parts of a car? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe he did. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember any conversation when he asked you what the +clutch was? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes. We got talking about that. He noticed, you know, +most cars as old as mine, you know most of them are standard shift, +and when I bought this old car it kind of fooled me it had automatic +transmission on it so we got talking about it on the way home driving +home and I told him that I really prefer a standard because you know, +they are a lot easier to work on and you know, when an automatic goes +dead it goes dead, there is no rolling a couple of feet and jumping on +the clutch and starting when the battery is down. + +And I remember he said it was a little bit different to drive with a +clutch. I said, if you are not used to it, but if you get used to it. +You have to find a friction point on any car, even on Chevrolet or +Ford, you know yourself the friction points on a clutch and the brakes +are different adjusted on every car you drive. + +And I told you there is nothing you do. You just have to get used to +a car of the individual, you can drive one car to do it, and you can +drive another one it may take you a couple of days to get used to it. + +Mr. BALL. He is the one who mentioned the clutch, is he, that you +didn't have a clutch? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +I guess he noticed that I didn't have a clutch. + +Mr. BALL. I see. + +Did he pay for any part of the trip, buy your gasoline? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. I never did ask him. Because like I +said I drove over there anyway and it doesn't take any more to drive +one guy than it does to drive a carload. + +Mr. BALL. Did he offer to pay any time? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he never did. + +Mr. BALL. At any time coming back after a weekend did you ever stop at +a restaurant for breakfast? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; we never did. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever stop on the way home on Friday night and buy +anything? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; stopped one time and bought some gas, I remember. + +Mr. BALL. Did he pay for it? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Did he offer to? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him have any money in his possession, bills, +change? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never did see him out playing around with any +money. + +Mr. BALL. On the way back and forth did you talk very much to each +other? + +Mr. FRAZIER. N,. sir; not very much. He is, probably in your line of +business you have probably seen a lot of guys who talk a lot and some +don't and he was one of these types that just didn't talk. And I have +seen, you know, I am not very old but I have seen a lot of guys in my +time, just going to school, different boys and girls, some talk a lot +and some don't, so I didn't think anything strange about that. + +About the only time you could get anything out of the talking was about +babies, you know, he had one and he was expecting another, that was +one way he had him get that job because his wife was pregnant and I +would always get something out of it when I asked him about the babies +because it seemed he was very fond of children because when I asked +him he chuckled and told me about what he was doing about the babies +over the weekend and sometimes we would talk about the weather, and +sometimes he would go to work and it would be cloudy in the morning and +it would come out that afternoon after work, sometimes during the day +and it would turn to be just one of the prettiest days you would want +anywhere, and he would say some comment about that, but not very much. + +He would say a few words and then he would cut off. + +Mr. BALL. Did he tell you he had been to Russia, say anything about +that? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, we were talking about one time talking about +the service, and so I asked him had he ever been overseas and he said +he had, and I asked him had he ever been to Germany and he said he had +been through there. + +So, most times when boys are in the service in the United States they +either go to Japan or, I say, they either go over there or you know, go +to some of these, say, like Germany or France somewhere like that. + +And so other than that he told me that he had been through there. + +Mr. BALL. Did he say he had been to Russia? + +Mr. FRAZIER. He said, you know, like I say, he said he had been over +there and he said he had been there so I thought when he told me, yes; +he had, so I thought maybe, you know, by being, I know he told me had +been in service and I thought maybe that is how he got in. + +Mr. BALL. In other words, your answer is yes; he did tell you he had +been in Russia? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Did he go into detail and tell you how he got there and what +he did there? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, he didn't. I, to be frank with you I, was more +interested about France and Germany and I asked him about them towns +and he told me he liked France, I mean he said not that he didn't like +France, he said people in France was more the kind to con the United +States boys out of their money and he was in Germany there 2 or 3 days +and he said he liked Germany better than France because that is one +reason. Because he said if you didn't really know how to count that +French money them French guys would really take you. + +Mr. BALL. Did he say anything about being in the Marines? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; he told me he was a Marine. + +Mr. BALL. That he had been to Japan? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't say he had been to Japan. + +Mr. BALL. Ever talk about politics? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Ever mention any subjects like, political parties, the +Democrats, Republicans? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Ever mention anything about Communists, Marxists or any words +like that did he use? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did he tell you where he met his wife? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Did he ever talk much about his wife? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. I say, like I said, he was just a guy +who didn't talk very much at all. + +Mr. BALL. At the Texas School Book Depository, you have lunch, +45-minute lunch hour, don't you? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Did you pack your lunch from home? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir, I always took lunch. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not when Oswald came back with you +on any Monday morning or any weekend did he pack his lunch? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he did. + +Mr. BALL. He did? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. When he rode with me, I say he always brought +lunch except that one day on November 22 he didn't bring his lunch that +day. + +Mr. BALL. But every other day he brought a lunch? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right, when he rode with me. + +Mr. BALL. Would he bring it in a paper sack or what kind of a container? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; like a little paper sack you get out of a +grocery store, you have seen these little old sacks that you could buy, +sandwich bag, sack. + +Mr. BALL. Did you carry your lunch in a paper sack? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. BALL. There is a lunch room in the Texas School Book Depository? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Is that on the first floor? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; on the second floor. + +Mr. BALL. There is some kind of a recreation room on the first floor? + +Mr. FRAZIER. There is a little domino room there where some of the guys +go in and play dominoes. + +Mr. BALL. But the lunch room is on the second floor? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Do they sell any food there? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they don't. About all they sell in the lunch room +is different types of soft drinks and then near the window, the men who +work in the offices there they have coffee there, you can drink coffee +up there, I never did. Then you have an assortment of cookies and +candies and peanuts and so forth on the machine there. That is about +all they have. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not Oswald packed his lunch, +brought his lunch on other days, the days that he didn't ride with you? + +Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, I don't know whether he brought his +lunch because I will tell you one way, some guys bring their lunch +there and some guys buy it there because we have a caterer service, you +see, comes around about 10 o'clock the man comes around and several +of the boys they go out there and buy their lunch from the catering +service. + +Mr. BALL. Then later on at 11:45? + +Mr. FRAZIER. 12 o'clock is when we always eat lunch. + +Mr. BALL. 12 to 12:45? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. When you get off your job, did you usually go to the lunch +room on the second floor to eat your lunch? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; most of the time I don't. Most of the time you +see several of us guys sitting down at our own table and we just sit +there. I say we usually go up there to get something to drink and I say +I have ate up there several times but most of the times I eat with the +guys I work with. + +Usually we just sit down and eat, and we lay down on the big tables +there and sometimes talk or go to sleep. + +Mr. BALL. That is on the first floor? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Did you notice where Oswald had his lunch usually? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't. + +Now, I say we have a refrigerator there, some of the boys put their +lunches in there. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever eat lunch with Oswald? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never have. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him eating lunch? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never have seen him eat lunch. I have seen him +go to the Doctor Pepper machine by the refrigerator and get a Doctor +Pepper but I never have seen him, you might say, sit right down and eat +his lunch. + +Mr. BALL. In driving back and forth with Oswald did you ever hear +him--did he ever talk about guns? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he never did. + +Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you he owned a gun? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did Oswald ever say anything to you about buying an +automobile in any of these trips? + +Mr. FRAZIER. One time we were talking about it, he said he thought he +would just buy him an old car, you know, like mine. I say most models +like that you can get them pretty cheap and as far as going back and +forth for work that is about all they are good for. + +I said, "You don't need a new car to be used for going back and forth. +You don't need it unless you drive a good-sized distance." + +But that is what he said in the long run he planned to buy one but so +far as I know he never did. + +Mr. BALL. Did he say that once or more than once? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; just one time. + +Mr. BALL. When he said he would get an old car? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you he had gone to an old car dealer? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you he had tried out a car? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. So far as I--like I say, that one time, that +is as far as I can ever recall that we even talked much about +anything--about cars--except a while ago he asked me--we were talking +about the clutch and automatic transmission and so forth. + +Mr. BALL. There is a bus service between Dallas and Irving? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; there is. + +Mr. BALL. Can you get the bus anywhere near the Texas School Book +Depository? + +Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you I will say I have never ridden the +bus from Irving over there, but I assume you can get off there just +like any other bus at any street corner you want to. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know what the fare is? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. BALL. Is there a toll charge to call from Dallas to Irving? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it is not. + +Mr. BALL. For 10 cents you can call there, can you? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say just for your regular telephone bill, you just +pick it up and call. + +Mr. BALL. I see. + +Now, there was the one date that Oswald came to you and asked you to +drive him back to Irving, it was not a Friday, was it? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it wasn't. + +Mr. BALL. It was on a Thursday. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Was that the 21st of November? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Well, tell us about that. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, we were standing like I said at the +four-headed table about half as large as this, not, quite half as +large, but anyway I was standing there getting the orders in and he +said, "Could I ride home with you this afternoon?" + +And I said, "Sure. You know, like I told you, you can go home with me +any time you want to, like I say anytime you want to go see your wife +that is all right with me." + +So automatically I knew it wasn't Friday, I come to think it wasn't +Friday and I said, "Why are you going home today?" + +And he says, "I am going home to get some curtain rods." He said, "You +know, put in an apartment." + +He wanted to hang up some curtains and I said, "Very well." And I never +thought more about it and I had some invoices in my hands for some +orders and I walked on off and started filling the orders. + +Mr. BALL. This was on what floor? + +Mr. FRAZIER. This was on the first floor. + +Mr. BALL. About what time in the morning? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I would say sometime between eight and ten, because I go +to work at eight and I would break at ten. + +Mr. BALL. Was it at the break time or before? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It was before the break. + +Mr. BALL. It was before noon then? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see him at the noon hour? + +Mr. FRAZIER. That day? + +Mr. BALL. That day. + +Mr. FRAZIER. I don't recall, to be frank with you. You know, I will +just be frank with you, I say just like after a guy works there for +a while and he comes by and he walks by you, you don't pay so much +attention but say like somebody else comes in there strange, you +automatically just look at them. + +Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him again until quitting time? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, to be frank with you, like I said, the only +time--you know, like I say, he didn't talk very much and about the +only time--other than like I told you about talking about them babies +and about the weather sometimes he would ask me some questions about a +book because down there, I say, if you have ever been acquainted with +books a lot of times maybe just a little bit of difference in a title +or something like that would make the difference in what type of book +they want and sometimes maybe they will forget to put that on there and +you look at the price. + +If you can tell the price, some editions we have a paperback and some +we have hard bound and the price can automatically tell you which one +they want, and sometimes he would ask me something like that which +book do they want and I would tell him and that was about the only +conversation we had. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't talk any more with him that day concerning the +ride home? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. But you did go home with him? + +Mr. FRAZIER. That is he rode home with me. + +Mr. BALL. What time did you get off from work? + +Mr. FRAZIER. 4:40. + +Mr. BALL. What time did you get to Irving? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, usually get there, if you make good time, get there +maybe around 5:20 or 5:25. But if you catch the traffic and catch the +train crossing the tracks, it is usually about 5:30 or 5:35, it is just +according to how bad the traffic is. + +If you get ahead of it before it starts coming out, you can make pretty +good headway. + +Mr. BALL. Did you make any stop in the car before you got home? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe we did. + +Mr. BALL. Did the two of you walk together down to the parking lot? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; we did. + +Mr. BALL. And you dropped him off at the place where his wife was +staying, did you? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I believe I did. I, to be frank with you I, say +sometimes he rode home with me, sometimes--a little store not too far +from the house, there and if I was going to the store I would just +drop him off by the house, but if I wasn't going to the store he would +usually go on to the corner near the house and walk the rest of the way +to the house up to where his wife was staying just about a half a block +from my house up to where he was, his wife was staying, so he would +walk there just a little bit. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember if you talked to him any on the walk down two +or three blocks down to the parking lot, anything said that you can +remember? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe so. + +Mr. BALL. When you got in the car and went home do you remember if you +said anything, if you said anything to him, or if he said anything to +you? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe he did. Like I said, he didn't +talk very much. About the only time we would talk was about the weather +and babies, something like that. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember this day whether or not you let him walk to +the house where his wife was staying? + +Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, I can't remember positively whether +I let him off at the house or whether he got out there where I lived, +just to be frank with you. + +Mr. BALL. You know where the house is, don't you? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where Mrs. Paine lives? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. How far is that from your house? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Like I say, it is just about half a block up the street. + +Mr. BALL. It is on the same street, is it? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, we lived at the corner of Westbrook and Fifth +Street, and Fifth Street runs on up, you know, and I say they live on +Fifth Street. + +Mr. BALL. What direction does Fifth run, east, west, north or south? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It runs east and west. + +Mr. BALL. East and west. And you live on the corner of Westbrook and +Fifth? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. And Paine's house is east or west of your house? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It is west. + +Mr. BALL. It is west of of your house? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. About a half block? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. On the same street. Fifth Street? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. What side of the street do you live on, the north side or +south side of Fifth Street? + +Mr. FRAZIER. North side. + +Mr. BALL. What side of the street do the Paine's live on, the north or +south side of Fifth Street? + +Mr. FRAZIER. North. + +Mr. BALL. You both live on the north side? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. So to walk from Paine's house to your house you walk east +along the north side of Fifth Street across Westbrook, is that right? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Now, from the corner of Westbrook and Fifth you walk west +on the same side of the street on the north side. + +Mr. BALL. On the north side? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. From your house to Paine's? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right, you walk west. + +Mr. BALL. And from Paine's house to yours. OK. + +Now, did you see Oswald any that night, the Thursday night---- + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. You brought him home. + +Next morning what time did you get up? What time did you get up the +next morning? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I believe I got up around 6:30, that is the time I usually +get up, right around 6:30 there. + +Mr. BALL. Always eat your breakfast before you go to work? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember the night before, that is after you got home +that night, that your sister asked you how it happened that Oswald came +home with you? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I believe she did or something. We got to talking +about something and said, I told her that he had rode home with me +and told her he said he was going to come home and pick up some +curtain rods or something. I usually don't talk too much to my sister, +sometimes she is not there when I am in because she is either at the +store or something like that and I am either when she comes in as I say +I am playing with the little nieces and we don't talk too much about +work or something like that. + +Mr. BALL. This night, this evening, do you remember you did talk to her +about the fact that Oswald had come home with you? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I believe I did. + +Mr. BALL. Did you tell her what he had told you? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. I believe she said why did he come home now and +I said, well, he says he was going to get some curtain rods. + +Mr. BALL. The next morning you had breakfast about what time? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Between 7 and 7:15, that is the time I usually, I usually +come to the breakfast table about 7. + +Mr. BALL. Breakfast table in the kitchen? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it is in the den. + +Mr. BALL. And the kitchen windows look out on what street, Westbrook or +Fifth? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Westbrook. + +Mr. BALL. They look onto Westbrook? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. There is a back door, is there, to the kitchen? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; there is. I say when we come in there we have a +double carport more or less type of garage. + +Mr. BALL. Is that on Westbrook? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; the entrance to the garage there, more or less +carport; yes, the entrance is from Westbrook. + +Mr. BALL. As you were having breakfast did your mother say anything to +you about---- + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say---- + +Mr. BALL. Oswald? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I was sitting there eating my breakfast there, so sitting +there, I usually talk to my little nieces, you know, they have them +cartoons on for a while and we usually talk a little bit back and forth +while eating breakfast and I was just finishing my coffee there and +my sister, you know, was working over there around, you know the sink +there, and she was fixing my lunch so she was somewhere around there +over on the cabinets fixing the cabinets and mother just happened to +glance up and saw this man, you know, who was Lee looking in the window +for me and she said, "Who is that?" + +And I said, "That is Lee," and naturally he just walked around and so I +thought he just walked around there on the carport right there close to +the door and so I told her I had to go, so I went in there and brushed +my teeth right quick and come through there and I usually have my coat +laying somewhere on the chair and picked it up and put it on and by +that time my sister had my lunch, you know, in a sack and sitting over +there on the washer where I picked it up right there by the door and I +just walked on out and we got in the car. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did your sister say anything as you were having +breakfast? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No; she didn't say anything to me at all. + +Mr. BALL. She didn't say anything to you either about Oswald or did she? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; say, she didn't say, you know, when I looked up +and saw him I knew who it was. + +Mr. BALL. You saw him? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. What was he doing? + +Mr. FRAZIER. He just looked through the kitchen window. To see from +there on the ground outside there. I say you don't have to be any +height at all, you don't have to be too tall to be able to look in the +kitchen window there. + +I say, if you have the window open you can see in, if you have light on +in there. + +Mr. BALL. When your mother mentioned, "Who is that," you looked up and +saw Lee Oswald in the kitchen window? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I just saw him for a split second and when he saw I saw +him, I guess he heard me say, "Well, it is time to go," and he walked +down by the back door there. + +Representative FORD. When he would go with you on Monday, on any +Monday, was this the same procedure for getting to, getting in contact +with you? + +Mr. FRAZIER. You mean coming in there and looking through the window? + +Representative FORD. Yes. + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it wasn't. I say, that is the first time he had +ever done that. I say, most times I would usually call him, you know, +I was already out in the car fixing to go out the driveway there, and, +you know, around to pick him up if he hadn't come down but most times, +once in a while I picked him up at the house and another time he was +already coming down the sidewalk to the house when I was fixing to pick +him up and I usually picked him up around the corner there. + +Representative FORD. Did this different method of him meeting you raise +any questions in your mind? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it didn't. I just thought maybe, you know, he +just left a little bit earlier but when I looked up and saw that the +clock was, I knew I was the one who was running a little bit late +because, as I say, I was talking, sitting there eating breakfast and +talking to the little nieces, it was later than I thought it was. + +Mr. BALL. When you went out the back door where was Oswald? + +Mr. FRAZIER. He was standing just a few feet there outside the back +door there. + +Mr. BALL. He wasn't in the car? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he wasn't. + +Mr. BALL. Was he near the car? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he wasn't. + +You see, always I keep my car parked outside the carport there, on the +other side. + +Mr. BALL. He was just a few feet outside your back door when you came +out? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Did you walk together to the car? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; we did. + +Mr. BALL. And you got in one side and he got in the other? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. Right in front there. + +Mr. BALL. Did you say usually you had to go by and pick him up? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I said I had a couple of times. Most of the time, +you know, he was usually walking down the sidewalk as I was driving +out of the driveway so, therefore, I didn't have to go up to the house +there to pick him up. I just usually picked him up around the corner +because he was usually on the sidewalk and I just stopped and picked +him up. + +Mr. BALL. Were you later than usual that morning? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe we were, because we got to work +on time. I say, when I looked at the clock, after I glanced he was +there a split second and I just turned around and looked at the clock +to see what time it was and it was right around 7:21 then and I went in +and brushed my teeth real quick and running through the house put my +coat on and we left. + +Mr. BALL. You both got in the car about the same time? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. All right. + +When you got in the car did you say anything to him or did he say +anything to you? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Let's see, when I got in the car I have a kind of habit +of glancing over my shoulder and so at that time I noticed there was a +package laying on the back seat, I didn't pay too much attention and I +said, "What's the package, Lee?" + +And he said, "Curtain rods," and I said, "Oh, yes, you told me you was +going to bring some today." + +That is the reason, the main reason he was going over there that +Thursday afternoon when he was to bring back some curtain rods, so I +didn't think any more about it when he told me that. + +Mr. BALL. What did the package look like? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I will be frank with you, I would just, it is +right as you get out of the grocery store, just more or less out of a +package, you have seen some of these brown paper sacks you can obtain +from any, most of the stores, some varieties, but it was a package just +roughly about two feet long. + +Mr. BALL. It was, what part of the back seat was it in? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It was in his side over on his side in the far back. + +Mr. BALL. How much of that back seat, how much space did it take up? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I would say roughly around 2 feet of the seat. + +Mr. BALL. From the side of the seat over to the center, is that the way +you would measure it? + +Mr. FRAZIER. If, if you were going to measure it that way from the end +of the seat over toward the center, right. But I say like I said I just +roughly estimate and that would be around two feet, give and take a few +inches. + +Mr. BALL. How wide was the package? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I would say the package was about that wide. + +Mr. BALL. How wide would you say that would be? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, say, around 5 inches, something like that. 5, 6 inches +or there. I don't---- + +Mr. BALL. The paper, was the color of the paper, that you would get in +a grocery store, is that it, a bag in a grocery store? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. You have seen, not a real light color but you know +normally, the normal color about the same color, you have seen these +kinds of heavy duty bags you know like you obtain from the grocery +store, something like that, about the same color of that, paper sack +you get there. + +Mr. BALL. Was there anything more said about the paper sack on the way +into town? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; there wasn't. + +Mr. BALL. What route did you take into town that day? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Went down--you know, I told you I had two routes; that day +I went down, you know, Fifth Street runs into Sixth after you cross +the Storey Road there, so I just went on down Sixth until I come to +O'Connor, and then took a left on O'Connor and it takes you right on +out to Stemmons and from there I went right on into Stemmons and come +up Commerce, and you go up Commerce, there until you hit Record Street, +that is one block over from Houston and then I went down until I hit +McKinney and then it goes right down to the warehouse and then take a +left and you go right around to the parking lot. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't stop any place on your way in? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Park in the parking lot? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you park in the parking lot this time? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I parked in the same place the picture I showed you there. + +Mr. BALL. As shown in the picture. That is Exhibit No. 361. + +Anything else said about curtain rods? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; there wasn't. + +Mr. BALL. Anything else said about the package? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; there wasn't. + +Mr. BALL. Who got out of the car first? + +Mr. FRAZIER. He did. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember any conversation on the way in about anything? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I asked him did he have fun playing with them +babies and he chuckled and said he did. And so that morning I said just +a few minutes after we started you know it was a cloudy day and it +started misting and rain and by the time we got out on the Freeway I +said, you know, how those trucks throw that grime on the windshield and +finally it was getting pretty thick on there with spots of rain, and +I turned on the windshield wiper and you know how grime spatters your +windshield and I said, "I wish it would rain or just quit altogether, I +wish it would do something to clear off the windshield," and the drops +started getting larger so eventually it cleaned off the windshield and +by the time I got down to Dallas there I just turned off the windshield. + +Just a few clouds, and rained a little bit to get out of it. But other +than that just saying the weather was messy, that is about all. + +Mr. BALL. Was it foggy? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; not in too particular. I say in other words, just +old cloudy, dull looking day and like I say fine mist of rain and after +we got a little bit further we got into larger drops. + +Mr. BALL. Was there anything said about the President coming to Dallas +that day? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it wasn't. + +Mr. BALL. Did he say anything about that the day before? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever have any conversation with him with reference to +the President's visit to Texas? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. When you got to the parking lot who got out of the car first? + +Mr. FRAZIER. He did. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't get out immediately then? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I was sitting there, say, looked at my watch and +somewhere around 7 or 8 minutes until and I saw we had a few minutes +and I sat there, and as I say you can see the Freeway, Stemmons +Freeway, from the warehouse and also the trains coming back and forth +and I was sitting there. + +What I was doing--glanced up and watching cars for a minute but I was +letting my engine run and getting to charge up my battery, because when +you stop and start you have to charge up your battery. + +Mr. BALL. Did you have your lunch beside you? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. BALL. Did you notice whether or not Lee had a package that looked +like a lunch package that morning? + +Mr. FRAZIER. You know like I told you earlier. I say, he didn't take +his lunch because I remember right when I got in the car I asked him +where was his lunch and he said he was going to buy his lunch that day. + +Mr. BALL. He told you that that day, did he? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. That is right. So, I assumed he was going to buy +it, you know, from that catering service man like a lot of the boys do. +They don't bring their lunch but they go out and buy their lunch there. + +Mr. BALL. What did he do about the package in the back seat when he got +out of the car? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Like I say, I was watching the gages and watched the car +for a few minutes before I cut it off. + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. FRAZIER. He got out of the car and he was wearing the jacket that +has the big sleeves in them and he put the package that he had, you +know, that he told me was curtain rods up under his arm, you know, and +so he walked down behind the car and standing over there at the end of +the cyclone fence waiting for me to get out of the car, and so quick as +I cut the engine off and started out of the car, shut the door just as +I was starting out just like getting out of the car, he started walking +off and so I followed him in. + +So, eventually there he kept getting a little further ahead of me and +I noticed we had plenty of time to get there because it is not too far +from the Depository and usually I walk around and watch them switching +the trains because you have to watch where you are going if you have to +cross the tracks. + +One day you go across one track and maybe there would be some cars +sitting there and there would be another diesel coming there, so you +have to watch when you cross the tracks, I just walked along and I just +like to watch them switch the cars, so eventually he kept getting a +little further ahead of me and by that time we got down there pretty +close to the Depository Building there, I say, he would be as much as, +I would say, roughly 50 feet in front of me but I didn't try to catch +up with him because I knew I had plenty of time so I just took my time +walking up there. + +Mr. BALL. Did you usually walk up there together. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; we did. + +Mr. BALL. Is this the first time that he had ever walked ahead of you? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he did. + +Mr. BALL. You say he had the package under his arm when you saw him? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You mean one end of it under the armpit? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he had it up just like you stick it right under +your arm like that. + +Mr. BALL. And he had the lower part---- + +Mr. FRAZIER. The other part with his right hand. + +Mr. BALL. Right hand? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. He carried it then parallel to his body? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right, straight up and down. + +Representative FORD. Under his right arm? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did it look to you as if there was something heavy in the +package? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I will be frank with you, I didn't pay much +attention to the package because like I say before and after he told me +that it was curtain rods and I didn't pay any attention to it, and he +never had lied to me before so I never did have any reason to doubt his +word. + +Mr. BALL. Did it appear to you there was some, more than just paper he +was carrying, some kind of a weight he was carrying? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, yes, sir; I say, because one reason I know that +because I worked in a department store before and I had uncrated +curtain rods when they come in, and I know if you have seen when they +come straight from the factory you know how they can bundle them up and +put them in there pretty compact, so he told me it was curtain rods so +I didn't think any more about the package whatsoever. + +Mr. BALL. Well, from the way he carried it, the way he walked, did it +appear he was carrying something that had more than the weight of a +paper? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, you know like I say, I didn't pay much +attention to the package other than I knew he had it under his arm and +I didn't pay too much attention the way he was walking because I was +walking along there looking at the railroad cars and watching the men +on the diesel switch them cars and I didn't pay too much attention on +how he carried the package at all. + +Mr. BALL. I will show you this picture again, this map, which is the +Commission's Exhibit No. 361, and would you show us the way he walked, +the course he walked from the place your car was parked up to the Texas +School Book Depository. You come around here and here is a black pen. +Show us the course that he walked. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Like I say, I had that car parked. + +Mr. BALL. Put an "X" there which will represent your car. + +Mr. FRAZIER. All right (indicating). + +Mr. BALL. That is where your car was parked? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I would say roughly like in there, you know like the +picture shows right in there. + +Mr. BALL. Now, draw a line to show the way that he walked. + +Mr. FRAZIER. O.K. + +Mr. BALL. The direction he walked. + +Mr. FRAZIER. All right. + +Like I say, he was standing right about there when I got out of the +car so naturally he started off walking so we just come on right on +just like you would come across these tracks right here, and he was +coming right on along the fence like that. Just coming right on, right +here now is the School Book Depository, right, so he was coming right +on down this fence there and he was coming across these tracks, and +standing right in here somewhere at the door. + +Mr. BALL. Door? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. At the end of that put a "XY", so "X" to "XY" will represent +the course he walked. It shows "XY". + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Then "X" to "XY" is the course he took, is that right? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go in the same door? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. BALL. You walked the same direction? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Now when he went in the door you were about 50 feet behind +him? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. The last time I saw him I was right in this area +coming across these railroad tracks and I just happened to glance up +and see him going through the door there and shut the door. + +Mr. BALL. Let's see, the last time you saw him he was at the door? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Which is at "XY" and you were crossing the railroad tracks on +Pacific Avenue? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I say this is Houston. + +Mr. BALL. Pacific runs east and west? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Put a mark there, put a "Z" there as to your location. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right in there. + +Mr. BALL. That is about where you were, a "Z" when he entered the door +at "XY"? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you went on in the Building, did you, afterwards? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. I went on in. + +Mr. BALL. Well, the first floor of the Texas School Book Depository is +fairly clear, isn't it, it is clear of partitions? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Pretty well. I will say we have bins after you get so far. + +Mr. BALL. Toward the middle of the floor you have bins? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see Lee as you walked in the door? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Here is Commission 362 which we will show you. I will put it +up high so everyone can see it. There is a picture in the lower left +corner which is marked "Exterior View of Entrance Door from Houston +Street Loading Dock." + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Is that the door? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. That is the door that Lee entered? + +Mr. FRAZIER. That is right. + +Mr. BALL. And that is also the door that you entered, is that correct? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And over to the right here is the interior view of entrance +door. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. That is the same door, isn't it? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Now, this door, you see right there is that door right +there. + +Mr. BALL. In other words, the door in the lower left-hand corner is the +outside door? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. And as you walk through--and this is the door, the outside +door, is shown in the picture on the lower right-hand corner? + +Mr. FRAZIER. That is right, right there, that is this same door you are +looking at over here. + +Mr. BALL. Then there is an interior door? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Leading into the interior that is also shown there? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. That is sort of, what is it--a little corridor that you walk +through? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I say it is just about that distance from here over to +that man over there. + +Mr. BALL. Let's take a look there. + +Mr. FRAZIER. It is called the loading zone there. + +Mr. BALL. This map shows certain steps up, doesn't it? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Where is the door that you entered or that he entered. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right here. + +Mr. BALL. That is the door. Is that covered, is that area covered with +a ceiling roof? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it is. + +Mr. BALL. And this is also walled in, is it? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. The railroad track runs along here. + +Mr. BALL. After you get into this outside shed how did you get into the +first floor of the Texas School Book Depository? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Through that door. + +Mr. BALL. Through the door there, into the interior door? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. How much of the first floor here is clear so that you can see +anybody there? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Roughly say, let's see, just a few feet back, you know +here is the door right here. + +Mr. BALL. Whose door? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Mr. Shelley's. + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Just a few feet back in here is where the bins start, they +run this way. + +Mr. BALL. Can you mark in this where the bins start, the place? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Here. + +Mr. BALL. Just draw a line across, you don't need to draw in the bins +but just where the bins start and we we will know it is the area. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Somewhere right in here. + +Mr. BALL. Draw the line clear across. + +We will mark the line "A" on one side and "B" on the other so that we +can refer to it. + +Now, the area between, all the area shown in here from entrance to line +"AB", is clear, is it? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Now, the line from "AB" to the Elm Street side there are +bins, are they? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. And are those bins man high? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. 6, 7 feet? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Like I say these bins, we have two or three that +run across this way, like I have this line drawn, and they have broken +spaces, and you can see a man on the other side of these bins because +they are not sealed up in the back. + +In other words, you can put books in, say, from this side and go on the +other side and have another. Anyway, we have more like these window +here. + +Mr. BALL. The windows on Elm Street? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. We have some bins running this way, over here, +several bins, two or three over here, and two or three over here. + +Mr. BALL. Is this the only entrance to the first floor of the Building, +the one you have shown us? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir, it is not. + +Mr. BALL. What other entrance is there? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right here is the main entrance. + +Mr. BALL. The main entrance? + +Mr. FRAZIER. That is right, coming on through here. + +Mr. BALL. There are two entrances. There is a main entrance in the +front of the Building or the Elm Street entrance, and then there is the +door through which you entered the first floor, is that right? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, then we have another. + +Mr. BALL. Where? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Out over here, let's see if I can find it, where the +garage where we have the truck. Let's see. + +Mr. BALL. There is an overhead door here. + +Mr. FRAZIER. I see, right through here now, I see right through this +door here we come out right here and we come out in this area right in +here where we have another dock right out in this area right here, in +that area there. + +Mr. BALL. That would be---- + +Mr. FRAZIER. That would be one, two, three. From this loading, like I +say, where we keep the truck. + +Mr. BALL. Is this overhead door usually covered, usually down closed, +rather? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I say we keep it closed, and we have it here +back in cold weather and we kept it closed and like I say when you go +out there and get into the truck like you are going to drive the truck. + +Mr. BALL. Mark an arrow that you say is the entrance or exit, mark an +arrow going out. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Going out. + +Mr. BALL. All right. + +Now, this day did you see Lee Oswald the rest of the morning? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I saw him back and forth, you know, that morning +walking around, filling books and so forth, filling orders, had +invoices filling orders. + +Mr. BALL. When you came in that morning to go to work where did you go +first? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I went like I did every morning, I went down in the +basement there and hung up my coat and put up my lunch. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald down there? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Then you went to work? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. How did you get to the basement? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Went down through the, now over there where they have--are +you familiar with the Depository Building? + +Mr. BALL. Only through the map. + +Mr. FRAZIER. We have the---- + +Mr. BALL. There is the map of the first floor. Does it show the steps +leading down to the basement? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. You see the one there where you have the arrow +that is one entrance to the basement and that is the entrance I used +the biggest part of the time, that is the one I go down. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald there? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. During the morning you say you saw Oswald around filling +orders? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. BALL. Were you on the sixth floor any that morning? + +Mr. FRAZIER. One time just a few seconds. I said to Mr. Shelley we had +some book returns. They had sent back and he told me to count the books +and make sure they were all there and put them in the space and so I +took the elevator and loaded them on with a two-wheeler and so I know +where they went, and I went to the shelf off the elevator and put them +on the shelf and turned around and went right on down. + +Mr. BALL. Were they doing some work there that day? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; they were. + +Representative FORD. What time was that? + +Mr. FRAZIER. When I went to put up the stock? + +Representative FORD. Yes. On the sixth floor. + +Mr. FRAZIER. That was sometime between 8 and 10 o'clock. I say it was +the early part of the morning. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of work did you notice they were doing up there? + +Mr. FRAZIER. As well as I remember they were moving stock, I believe +putting up some stock, straightening up the stock. + +Mr. BALL. Any work done on the floor? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I don't remember if they were working on the floor or not. +They may have because upon the fifth floor I know we have done the +fifth floor. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember the names of any workmen you saw on the sixth +floor that morning you were there? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I believe Billy was up there, Billy Lovelady, but so far +as I can say I went and put books on the shelf and turned around and +walked back and glanced up when I was coming back, I didn't stay any +length of time because when we are pretty busy, some fill out orders +and some doing something else and if you have a lot of orders to fill +you haven't got a lot of time to sit around and be talking. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald on the sixth floor any time that morning? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. I didn't because like I say that was the only +time I went up there at all that day and I was just up there for a few +seconds. + +Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him any that morning? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I don't believe I did much unless he asked me something +about a book like I told you, and I was always willing to help anybody +I can. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you knew that the President was going to pass that +building sometime that morning, didn't you? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I heard he would. + +Mr. BALL. Did you talk to some of the men around there about it? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to Oswald about that? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. What time did you knock off for lunch? + +Mr. FRAZIER. 12. + +Mr. BALL. Did you eat your lunch? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; not right then I didn't. I say, you know, he was +supposed to come by during our lunch hour so you don't get very many +chances to see the President of the United States and being an old +Texas boy, and [he] never having been down to Texas very much I went +out there to see him and just like everybody else was, I was standing +on the steps there and watched for the parade to come by and so I did +and I stood there until he come by. + +Mr. BALL. You went out there after you quit work? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right, for lunch. + +Mr. BALL. About 12 o'clock? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. And you hadn't eaten your lunch up to that time? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go out there with somebody? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. BALL. Who did you go out there with? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I stayed around there pretty close to Mr. Shelley and this +boy Billy Lovelady and just standing there, people talking and just +talking about how pretty a day it turned out to be, because I told you +earlier it was an old cloudy and misty day and then it didn't look like +it was going to be a pretty day at all. + +Mr. BALL. And it turned out to be a good day? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Pretty sunshiny day. + +Mr. BALL. Warm? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was pretty warm. + +Mr. BALL. Then let's see, there was Billy Lovelady and you were there. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Anybody else you can remember? + +Mr. FRAZIER. There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked +upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last +name. + +Mr. BALL. Were you near the steps? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I was, I was standing about, I believe, one step +down from the top there. + +Mr. BALL. One step down from the top of the steps? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; standing there by the rail. + +Mr. BALL. By steps we are talking about the steps of the entrance to +the Building? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Shown in this picture? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Which is Commission's Exhibit No. 362. Can you come over here +and show us about where you were standing? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Like I told you this was an entrance right here. + +Mr. BALL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. FRAZIER. We have a bar rail running about half way up here. This +was the first step and I was standing right around there. + +Mr. BALL. Put a mark there. Your name is Frazier, put an "F" there for +Frazier. + +Mr. FRAZIER. O.K. + +Mr. BALL. In the picture that would show you about there, would it? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; you can see, just see, the top, about the top +rail there, I was standing right in there. + +Mr. BALL. Right in there? + +Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, I say, shadow from the roof there +knocked the sun from out our eyes, you wouldn't have any glare in the +eyes standing there. + +Mr. BALL. There was a roof over your head, was there? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Did you stand there for 30 minutes or--tell us how long you +stayed there? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I stood there until the parade come by. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see the President go by? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, just right after he went by he hadn't hardly +got by, I heard a sound and if you have ever been around motorcycles +you know how they backfire, and so I thought one of them motorcycles +backfired because right before his car came down, now there were +several of these motorcycle policemen, and they took off down toward +the underpass down there, and so I thought, you know, that one of them +motorcycles backfired, but it wasn't just a few seconds that, you know, +I heard two more of the same type of, you know, sounds, and by that +time people was running everywhere, and falling down and screaming, +and naturally then I knew something was wrong, and so I come to the +conclusion somebody else, somebody was shooting at somebody and I +figured it was him. + +Mr. BALL. You figured it was who? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I figured it was somebody shooting at President Kennedy +because people were running and hollering so I just stood still. I have +always been taught when something like that happened or anywhere as far +as that it is always best to stand still because if you run that makes +you look guilty sure enough. + +Mr. BALL. Now, then, did you have any impression at that time as to the +direction from which the sound came? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, to be frank with you I thought it come from down +there, you know, where that underpass is. There is a series, quite a +few number, of them railroad tracks running together and from where +I was standing it sounded like it was coming from down the railroad +tracks there. + +Mr. BALL. Were you able to see the President, could you still see the +President's car when you heard the first sound? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I couldn't. From there, you know, people were +standing out there on the curb, you see, and you know it drops, you +know the ground drops, off there as you go down toward that underpass +and I couldn't see any of it because people were standing up there in +my way, but however, when he did turn that corner there, there wasn't +anybody standing there in the street and you could see good there, but +after you got on past down there you couldn't see anything. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't see the President's car at the time you heard the +sound? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. But you stood right there, did you? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. Stood right where I was. + +Mr. BALL. And Mr. Shelley was still standing there? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. And also Billy Lovelady? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. The three of you didn't go any place? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction +but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody after that come into the Building while +you were there? + +Mr. FRAZIER. You mean somebody other that didn't work there? + +Mr. BALL. A police officer. + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I stood there a few minutes, you know, and some +people who worked there; you know normally started to go back into the +Building because a lot of us didn't eat our lunch, and so we started +back into the Building and it wasn't but just a few minutes that there +were a lot of police officers and so forth all over the Building there. + +Mr. BALL. Then you went back into the Building, did you? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. And before you went back into the Building no police officer +came up the steps and into the building? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Not that I know. They could walk by the way and I was +standing there talking to somebody else and didn't see it. + +Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything about what had happened, did you +hear anybody say anything about the President had been shot? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; right before I went back, some girl who had +walked down a little bit further where I was standing on the steps, and +somebody come back and said somebody had shot President Kennedy. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know who it was who told you that? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Sir? + +Mr. BALL. Do you know who the girl was who told you that? + +Mr. FRAZIER. She didn't tell me right directly but she just came back +and more or less in a low kind of hollering she just told several +people. + +Mr. BALL. Then you went back into the Building, did you? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. And police officers came in there? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I would say by the time, you know some of us +went back in, and it wasn't just a few minutes, I say there were +several. + +Mr. BALL. Did you stay on the first floor? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, stayed on the first floor there for a few minutes +and I hadn't eaten my lunch so I had my lunch down there in the +basement and I went down there to get my lunch and eat it and I walked +back up on the first floor there. + +Mr. BALL. When you came back into the Building, you came in the front +door, didn't you? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go down to the basement immediately or did you stand +around on the first floor? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I stood around for several minutes there, you +know, and then, you know, eventually the ones who hadn't eaten their +lunch, some of them had taken their lunch outside. + +Mr. BALL. Did other people go downstairs with you? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't. + +Mr. BALL. You went down alone, did you? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you go at any time in the back end of the Building back +near the door to the loading dock? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never did. + +Mr. BALL. Perhaps I had better ask you to point out on the map here +where you were. Come over here, please. + +Mr. FRAZIER. O.K. + +Mr. BALL. You came in back into the Building? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Tell us where you went and what you did? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, you know like I said I come back through here +[indicating on Commission Exhibit No. 362, diagram of first floor]. + +Mr. BALL. By "coming back through here," you mean you came down the +hallway and into the entrance into the first floor warehouse? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right, and you come by Mr. Shelley's office, that is his +counter right here, after you get in, you get off here, that is his +office, anyway, right out, I come out around here, you know where +several of the people walked around here. + +Mr. BALL. That is in the bin area? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; the bins don't start automatically right up in +here. I say, there is a little bit more or less, like more or less a +hall through here, but anyway, you know, I say, you have two or three +bins. + +Mr. BALL. Through here you mean there is sort of a hall after you enter +into the warehouse? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Right. + +Mr. FRAZIER. From it, after you come past this counter you have several +rows of bins coming this way, but, I say, right after you get past, +say, this last bin right here running that way, right out this general +area right here you have a telephone and everything out in here. + +Mr. BALL. Well, you indicated that everything that would be beyond this +line, the bin lines, would be clear on the first floor. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right, beyond here. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever go into that area where it was clear before you +went downstairs? + +From the time you came back into the room, did you go down into this +area which was clear before you went downstairs? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't go in here. I was right over right close +to Mr. Shelley's office right around here and sit around and talked +with some guys around there. + +Mr. BALL. You are indicating around Mr. Shelley's office? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; pretty close right there, like I say more or +less right out over in here we have a---- + +Mr. BALL. Put a mark there. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Let's see---- + +Mr. BALL. Put a circle to show the general area where you and the rest +of them stood around and talked. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right in there is right around near the telephone and we +were just right around in there. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you go? + +Mr. FRAZIER. We left, you know, after we stood and talked with some +guys there, some of them had eaten and some of them didn't, some of +them had sandwiches in their hands, so naturally I felt like eating and +I walked around the bin and walked down the steps there. + +Mr. BALL. Got your lunch? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Come back up? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't come back up. I was sitting eating +my lunch. I looked at my watch and didn't have but 10 minutes, so +I naturally ate faster than normal, so I was eating a couple of +sandwiches, and eat an apple or something and come right back up and +the guys, the people who worked there, standing around on the first +floor, some of them eating their lunches and others merely talking. + +Mr. BALL. You never went back to work? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; we didn't. I didn't work any more that day. + +Mr. BALL. You stayed there on the job until you were told to go home? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What time did they tell you to go home? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It was between 1 and 2 there sometime, roughly, I don't +know what time it was. + +Mr. BALL. Had the police officers come in there and talked to you? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; they come in and talked to all of us. They asked +us to show our proper identification, and then they had us to write our +name down and who to get in touch with if they wanted to see us. + +Mr. BALL. Did they ask you where you had been at the time the President +passed? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; they had. I told them I was out on the steps +there. + +Mr. BALL. Asked you who you were with? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I told them and naturally Mr. Shelley and Billy +vouched for me and so they didn't think anything about it. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear anybody around there asking for Lee Oswald? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. At any time before you went home, did you hear anybody ask +for Lee? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe they did, because they, you know, +like one man showed us, we had to give proper identification and after +we passed him he told us to walk on then to the next man, and we, you +know, put down proper information where he could be found if they +wanted to see you and talk to you any more, and then we went on up to a +little bit more to the front entrance more toward Mr. Shelley's office +there with another man and stood there for a little while and told us +all that was there could go ahead and go home. + +Mr. BALL. Then you went on home? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Representative FORD. Did all this occur after you had finished your +lunch? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it did. + +Representative FORD. Did it ever occur to you at any time following the +shooting there was something connecting the shooting with Lee Oswald +and the package? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say not particularly not at that time, I didn't +think anything about it because, to be frank with you, some were over +here, one or two would be over here talking and just strung out here, +on the first floor and I didn't think anything about it. I see some of +the guys, they go out for lunch and they come back 12:45 so I didn't +know whether he had went out to lunch or not. Some of them do every +week. + +Representative FORD. Did any of the policemen interfere with your +efforts to go into the Building and eventually down into the basement +where you had your lunch? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Before you left, did you look for Oswald to see about taking +him home? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No; I didn't, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Was there some reason why you didn't? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did. Because like I told you, he was going +home to get the curtain rods and I asked him at the time, the same +time, it would be about that, would he be going home with me Friday +afternoon like he had been doing, he said no. So naturally when they +let us go I took on off because I thought maybe they had already +dismissed him and he went on home. + +Mr. BALL. When you talked to him on Thursday and he told you he +wouldn't be going home on Friday, did he tell you what he was going to +do, why he wasn't going to go home? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him again on Friday morning as to whether or +not he had changed his mind? Did you ask him whether or not you could +pick him up at the end of the day? + +Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, Mr. Ball, I am not sure. + +Mr. BALL. Whether you did or not. + +Did anybody tell you that Lee Oswald was missing before you went home? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't. + +Representative FORD. Could you describe for the Commission where you +went on the sixth floor that morning in relationship to the overall +picture of the sixth floor? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I could. + +Representative FORD. Would you do so, please? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Do you have a piece of paper I can draw? [Witness draws diagram on +piece of paper.] + +Let's see, right here is your two elevator shafts we have. That morning +I used this one over here. + +Representative FORD. Would you mark Houston, Elm and the other streets? + +Mr. FRAZIER. This is Houston, this is Elm right out here. Anyway, like +I said, I won't draw these buildings. I have these two elevator shafts +here. Quickly you come off these elevator shafts right here, we have +skids with books on them, and you see right on those skids you would +have some shelves right about like this and so I merely walked over +to the elevator with the two-wheeler we use on the dock and walked +somewhere say maybe halfway, not quite halfway, there and put up some +books, put them down on the floor there, on the floor level and so I +just turned around and come back to the elevator and come on down, and +went about my business. He had me putting up some books there on the +shelves. + +Representative FORD. From this point here could you see the windows or +the area at the corner of Houston and Elm in the Building? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; you could. I say you could look down and see +this area back over here. + +Representative FORD. Did you look over there? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't. + +Right on down there, I knew where the books went so normally I didn't +have to look around. I say, I was going to get through, if you are not +familiar with the books and so forth it would take you a little longer +to find and put them up. But if you know where they go you can put them +up very quickly. + +So I knew this book went in the shelf because this book we don't handle +very many of them and that is where I put books you don't handle very +many, put them in the shelf. + +So I put the books in the shelf and turned around and put them in the +elevator and come on down. + +Mr. BALL. Can I have this marked as Commission Exhibit 368, the diagram +just drawn by the witness to illustrate his work on the sixth floor? + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be marked. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 368, for +identification.) + +Mr. BALL. I have here Commission's 163, a gray blue jacket. Do you +recognize this jacket? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Lee Oswald wear this jacket? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe I have. + +Mr. BALL. Commission Exhibit No. 162, which can be described for the +record as a gray jacket with zipper, have you seen Lee Oswald wear this +jacket? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I haven't. + +Mr. BALL. I have here Commission 150, which is described as sort of a +rust brown shirt. Have you ever seen Lee Oswald wear this shirt? It has +a hole in the sleeve near the elbow. + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe I have because most time I +noticed when Lee had it, I say he put off his shirt and just wear a +T-shirt the biggest part of the time so really what shirt he wore that +day I really didn't see it or didn't pay enough attention to it whether +he did have a shirt on. + +Mr. BALL. On that day you did notice one article of clothing, that is, +he had a jacket? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What color was the jacket? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It was a gray, more or less flannel, wool-looking type of +jacket that I had seen him wear and that is the type of jacket he had +on that morning. + +Mr. BALL. Did it have a zipper on it? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was one of the zipper types. + +Mr. BALL. It isn't one of these two zipper jackets we have shown? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know what kind of trousers he had on, what color? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Not that day, I don't remember. + +Mr. BALL. You wouldn't remember that day? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I had seen him wear some gray ones before. + +Mr. BALL. Here is Commission's Exhibit No. 157 which are gray trousers. +Had you ever seen him wear these? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; to be frank with you, I had seen something more or +less of that order, that type of material, but so far as that, being +sure that, was his pants or some of his clothes, I couldn't be sure. + +Mr. BALL. Here is Commission No. 156 which is a pair of gray trousers. +Did you ever see him wear trousers of that type? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Not that I know of. + +Mr. BALL. You are not able to tell us then anything or are you able to +tell us, describe any of the clothing he had on that day, except this +gray jacket? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. That is the only thing you can remember? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. I have here a paper sack which is Commission's Exhibit 364. + +That gray jacket you mentioned, did it have any design in it? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Was it light or dark gray? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It was light gray. + +Mr. BALL. You mentioned it was woolen. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Long sleeves? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Buttoned sleeves at the wrist, or do you remember? + +Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, I didn't notice that much about the +jacket, but I had seen him wear that gray woolen jacket before. + +Mr. BALL. You say it had a zipper on it? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now we have over here this exhibit for identification which +is 364 which is a paper sack made out of tape, sort of a home made +affair. Will you take a look at this. Does this appear to be anything +like the color of the sack you saw on the back seat? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I would say it was, it was more a color like +this. + +Mr. BALL. It was more like this color, correct? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Did it have tape on it or did you notice it? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, like I say, I didn't notice that much about it as I +didn't see it very much. + +Mr. BALL. Will you take a look at it as to the length. Does it appear +to be about the same length? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. We will just use this. Was one end of the sack turned over, +folded over? Do you remember that? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, you know, like I was saying, when I glanced at it, +but I say from what I saw I didn't see very much of it, I say the bag +wasn't open or anything like it where you can see the contents. If you +was going to say putting--to more or less a person putting in carefully +he would throw it in carefully, you put it more toward the back. If he +had anything folded up in it I didn't see that. + +Mr. BALL. When you saw him get out of the car, when you first saw him +when he was out of the car before he started to walk, you noticed he +had the package under the arm? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. One end of it was under the armpit and the other he had to +hold it in his right hand. Did the package extend beyond the right hand? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. Like I say if you put it under your armpits and +put it down normal to the side. + +Mr. BALL. But the right hand on, was it on the end or the side of the +package? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No; he had it cupped in his hand. + +Mr. BALL. Cupped in his hand? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Take a look at this paper bag which is Commission Exhibit 364 +for identification, with reference to the width. + +Was the bag about that width or a different width? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well. I would say it appears to me it would be pretty +close but it might be just a little bit too wide. I think it is, +because you know yourself you would have to have a big hand with that +size but like I say he had this cupped in his hand because I remember +glancing at him when he was a walking up ahead of me. + +Mr. BALL. This is another bag here which has been marked Commission's +Exhibit 142. But I don't see the stamp on it. This is FBI No. 10. This +was shown to you before, wasn't it, in Dallas? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was. + +Mr. BALL. You were asked if you had seen this before, weren't you? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I was. + +Mr. BALL. When you first saw it, you felt that the bag you saw was of a +different color, didn't you? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right, and I say they told me this one had been treated in +the lab. + +Mr. BALL. If you will note there is a part of this bag which has not +been treated. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. So I will show you this part of this exhibit that hasn't been +treated, and tell me whether or not the paper, the color of the paper +that has not been treated, is or is not similar to the color of the +paper on the bag you saw on the back seat of your car that morning. + +(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.) + +Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, more like I say the color, the color +I saw would be more like it but I imagine if this hadn't been run +through that process that this color here that you unwrapped would be +more closer to this. This seems to have a little bit different color to +me. + +Mr. BALL. I didn't get the answer because of the--let's refer to this +bag, that is the colored bag. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Okay, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And the bag that is not colored, and the other is just a bag. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Okay, sir. + +Mr. BALL. We are talking about the colored bag, the one that has +changed its color. There is a part of the colored bag that hasn't +changed color, isn't it? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. That is the part I want to call your attention to. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. The color of this bag, the colored bag, has not been treated. +Take a look at it. Is that similar to the color of the bag you saw in +the back seat of your car that morning? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It would be, surely it could have been, and it couldn't +have been. Like I say, see, you know this color, either one of these +colors, is very similar to the type of paper that you can get out of a +store or anything like that, and so I say it could have been and then +it couldn't have been. + +Mr. BALL. Do you mean by that that it is similar to the color? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. And do you have a definite memory of the color of the bag you +saw on the back seat of your car so that you can distinguish between +one color and another? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I believe it would be more on this basis here. + +Mr. BALL. You say it would be more on the color of bag No. 364, is that +right? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. You will notice that this bag which is the colored bag, FBI +Exhibit No. 10, is folded over. Was it folded over when you saw it the +first time, folded over to the end? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I will say I am not sure about that, whether it was folded +over or not, because, like I say, I didn't pay that much attention to +it. + +Mr. BALL. This is Commission Exhibit No. 142. + +The CHAIRMAN. That is the dark bag? + +Mr. BALL. The dark bag is Commission Exhibit No. 142. + +When you were shown this bag, do you recall whether or not you told the +officers who showed you the bag--did you tell them whether you thought +it was or was not about the same length as the bag you saw on the back +seat? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I told them that as far as the length there, I told them +that was entirely too long. + +Mr. BALL. What about the width? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, like I say now, now I couldn't see much of +the bag from him walking in front of me. Now he could have had some +of it sticking out in front of his hands because I didn't see it from +the front. The only time I did see it was from the back, just a little +strip running down from your arm and so therefore, like that, I say, I +know that the bag wouldn't be that long. + +So far as being that wide like I say I couldn't be sure. + +Mr. BALL. It could have been that wide? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you said that some of the bag might have been beyond his +hands, did you say? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I said it could have, now I am not saying it was. + +Mr. BALL. In other words, it could have been longer than his hands? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. It has been suggested that you take this bag, which is the +colored bag, Commission Exhibit No. 142, and put it under your arm just +as a sample, or just to show about how he carried the bag. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Okay. + +Mr. BALL. Put it under your armpit. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Like that, normally your hand would come down like that +and you would say, you would have an item, like you have seen people +carry items like they would be walking along and your arm would come +down like that, just like---- + +Mr. BALL. But are you sure that his hand was at the end of the package +or at the side of the package? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Like I said, I remember I didn't look at the package very +much, paying much attention, but when I did look at it he did have his +hands on the package like that. + +Mr. BALL. But you said a moment ago you weren't sure whether the +package was longer or shorter. + +Mr. FRAZIER. And his hands because I couldn't see that about the +package. + +Mr. BALL. By that, do you mean that you don't know whether the package +extended beyond his hands? + +Mr. FRAZIER. This way? + +Mr. BALL. No; lengthwise, toward his feet. + +Mr. FRAZIER. No; now I don't mean that. + +Mr. BALL. What do you mean? + +Mr. FRAZIER. What I was talking about, I said I didn't know where it +extended. It could have or couldn't have, out this way, widthwise not +lengthwise. + +Mr. BALL. In other words, you say it could have been wider than your +original estimate? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. But you don't think it was longer than his hands? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. How tall are you? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I am 6-foot, a little bit over 6-foot. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know what your arm length is? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't. + +Mr. BALL. We can probably measure it before you leave. + +Did you ever see Lee taking home anything with him from the Texas Book +Depository Building? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; never did. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him taking a package home with him? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. When was the last time you can remember you saw Lee? + +Mr. FRAZIER. You mean on the 22d? + +Mr. BALL. On the 22d, that day. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Somewhere between it was after 10 and somewhere before +noon, because I remember I was walking down to the first floor that +day, that was the only time I went up on the elevator was, like I say, +for a few minutes and, I put that box of books up and put it down, and +I was on the first floor putting up books all day and I seen him back +and forth and he would be walking and getting books and put on the +order. + +Mr. BALL. That was the last time you saw him all day? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't talk to him again? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Did you wear a coat or jacket to work that morning? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. BALL. It was chilly, was it? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was. + +Mr. BALL. When you stood out on the front looking at the parade, where +was Shelley standing and where was Lovelady standing with reference to +you? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, see, I was standing, like I say, one step down from +the top, and Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step +and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right +over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over +toward more the wall also. + +Mr. BALL. Usually when Lee walked in the Building in the morning, when +you came to work with him where did he go, do you know? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. He just walked in, say, like inside the Building, +and like I say I always went and put my lunch up and hang my jacket or +coat up, whichever I wore, and he was usually around there on the first +floor there after some of them put their lunch in the refrigerator, so +far as that I never paid too much attention to what he usually did. + +Mr. BALL. You usually walked in together? + +Mr. FRAZIER. That is right, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And you separated after you got in there? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; after we got into the interior I just went and put my +lunch up. + +Mr. BALL. Did you notice where Lee kept his lunch? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him come into the Building on other days +than the days that he rode with you? + +Mr. FRAZIER. You mean did I ever see him come in the Building when he +rode with me? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; because when he rode with me we always walked +together. + +Mr. BALL. No; other than when he rode with you. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, other than when he rode with me. No, sir; I didn't. + +The CHAIRMAN. Did he have any particular associates around there that +you knew of? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Not that I knew of. I say he didn't mingle with other guys +like the rest of us. The rest of us usually joked back and forth with +practically everybody who worked around there. But he usually kept to +himself, that was the only time he talked to anybody was when he wanted +to know something about a book or something like that. + +Mr. BALL. We have got a picture taken the day of the parade and it +shows the President's car going by. + +Now, take a look at that picture. Can you see your picture any place +there? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't, because I was back up in this more or +less black area here. + +Mr. BALL. I see. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Because Billy, like I say, is two or three steps down in +front of me. + +Mr. BALL. Do you recognize this fellow? + +Mr. FRAZIER. That is Billy, that is Billy Lovelady. + +Mr. BALL. Billy? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Let's take a marker and make an arrow down that way. That +mark is Billy Lovelady? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. That is where you told us you were standing a moment ago. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. In front of you to the right over to the wall? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Is this a Commission exhibit? + +We will make this a Commission Exhibit No. 369. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 369 for +identification.) + +Mr. BALL. That is written in. The arrow marks Billy Lovelady on +Commission's Exhibit No. 369. + +The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any lockers there in which you put your +clothes, and so forth? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; we don't. + +(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.) + +Mr. FRAZIER. Some boys hang their jackets up in there in that little +domino room where they were going to play dominoes. But here lately, +I have been wondering, you know, most of us wear our jackets, what we +have on, because if you are going out there on a dock in the cold air +we usually keep them on. + +The CHAIRMAN. I see. + +Mr. BALL. On Thursday afternoon when you went home, drove on home, did +he carry any package with him? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Did he have a jacket or coat on him? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of a jacket or coat did he have? + +Mr. FRAZIER. That, you know, like I say gray jacket. + +Mr. BALL. That same gray jacket? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Now, I can be frank with you, I had seen him +wear that jacket several times, because it is cool type like when you +keep a jacket on all day, if you are working on outside or something +like that, you wouldn't go outside with just a plain shirt on. + +Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. + +The CHAIRMAN. Senator, have you any questions you would like to ask? + +I think that is all. + +Does anybody else have any questions to ask? Do you have any questions? + +Mr. BALL. Mr. Frazier, we have here this Exhibit No. 364 which is a +sack and in that we have put a dismantled gun. Don't pay any attention +to that. Will you stand up here and put this under your arm and then +take hold of it at the side? + +Now, is that anywhere near similar to the way that Oswald carried the +package? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, you know, like I said now, I said I didn't pay much +attention---- + +Mr. BALL. Turn around. + +Mr. FRAZIER. I didn't pay much attention, but when I did, I say, he had +this part down here, like the bottom would be short he had cupped in +his hand like that and, say, like walking from the back if you had a +big arm jacket there you wouldn't tell much from a package back there, +the physical features. If you could see it from the front like when you +walk and meet somebody you could tell about the package, but walking +from behind you couldn't tell much about the package whatsoever about +the width. But he didn't carry it from the back. If this package were +shorter he would have it cupped in his hands. + +The CHAIRMAN. Could he have had the top of it behind his shoulder, or +are you sure it was cupped under his shoulder there? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; because the way it looked, you know, like I say, he +had it cupped in his hand. + +The CHAIRMAN. I beg your pardon? + +Mr. FRAZIER. I said from where I noticed he had it cupped in his hands. +And I don't see how you could have it anywhere other than under your +armpit because if you had it cupped in your hand it would stick over it. + +Mr. BALL. Could he have carried it this way? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. Never in front here. Like that. Now, that is what +I was talking to you about. No, I say he couldn't because if he had you +would have seen the package sticking up like that. + +From what I seen walking behind he had it under his arm and you +couldn't tell that he had a package from the back. + +Mr. BALL. When you cupped the bottom of your package in the hands, will +you stand up, again, please, and the upper part of the package is not +under the armpit, the top of the package extends almost up to the level +of your ear. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Or your eye level, and when you put the package under your +armpit, the upper part of the package, and take a hold of the side of +it with your right hand, it extends on approximately about 8 inches, +about the span of my hand, more than 8 inches, 8, 10 inches. + +Mr. FRAZIER. If you were using a yardstick or one of these little---- + +Mr. BALL. I was using my hand. + +Mr. FRAZIER. I know you were, but there are some different means to +measure it. I will say it varies, if you use a yardstick. You can go +and measure something with a tape measure, with a yardstick and come +up with a different measurement altogether, maybe a quarter of an inch +shorter or longer. + +Mr. BALL. I was asked, there was some uncertainty in your testimony as +to the direction from which you heard the shots fired. Let's see if we +can illustrate it. + +You heard the shots fired and you expressed an opinion that it came +from a certain direction. I would like to clear that up, if I could, on +this map. + +Here is the Texas School Book Depository Building, and you were +standing right here, you said, weren't you? Can you tell me? + +Mr. FRAZIER. You know the entrance there is not quite at that corner. + +Mr. BALL. That close. + +Now, you say you heard these three sounds which you later thought were +probably shots, you thought it came from a certain direction. + +Can you tell us from what direction as illustrated on the map? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. Now I say, you know where it is the straight curve +that goes under the underpass. + +Mr. BALL. That is the parkway? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. I say it runs over this parkway, you don't have it +on here--anyway, I say these railroad tracks there is a series of them +that come up over this, up over this overpass there, and from where I +was standing, I say, it is my true opinion, that is what I thought, it +sounded like it came from over there, in the railroad tracks. + +Mr. BALL. That would be east and south? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No; that would be west and south. + +Mr. BALL. West and south? + +Mr. FRAZIER. No; it would be north. + +Mr. BALL. No; it wouldn't be north. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it wouldn't be south because that is in that +direction. + +Mr. BALL. This is north, and you say it, I believe, it came from north? + +Mr. FRAZIER. It would be more or less west and north were these tracks +from this overpass. + +Mr. BALL. Your direction was west and north as the source of the sound. + +Well, take a look at the map that does show the overpass and you will +put a mark on that. + +Did any other people who were standing there with you express any +opinion as to where they thought the sounds came from? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, after we found out it was shots I see some of +the other people around there said when they were staying there, said +that is what it was, downward right back from us, like where we were +standing. If we had been standing somewhere else you might have gotten +a different opinion, but from where we were standing on the steps there +it sounded like back down to the right. + +Mr. BALL. Here is a Commission Exhibit, No. 347. It is an aerial +photograph, and it shows the Texas School Book Depository Building. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Here is the Depository Building here. + +Mr. BALL. That is right, sir. Here is the parkway. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. Here are the overpasses here. + +Can you show us on that map where you think--will that map--can you +on that map indicate the general direction from which you thought the +sounds came from? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; because we were standing right here. + +Mr. BALL. Don't mark it up right now. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. But what I am trying to say is we were standing +down there, and back over here, this over here is more or less a +knoll, and you can look over there and see this. You see this furthest +left line that curved around here is the ones we take to come out on +Stemmons Expressway, and this is a high knoll up here which runs where +the tracks are, from standing there it sounded like it came from this +general area over here. + +Mr. BALL. Just mark on that if you can, if you can mark a source. + +Mr. FRAZIER. This is where it is. + +Mr. BALL. Mark a circle. + +Mr. FRAZIER. I would say just like over in here. + +Mr. BALL. Let's make it a little heavier. In that general direction? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. That was just part of the knoll. + +Mr. BALL. The circle marked on No. 347, we will identify it with an +"F," the circle marked "F" represents the direction, general direction, +of a source of sound as you--as occurred to you as you stood on the +front steps of the Texas Book Depository Building, is that right? + +Mr. FRAZIER. Right. + +Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. + +The CHAIRMAN. Anything from you, Senator? + +Well, that will be all. Thank you very much for coming and testifying +before the Commission. + +Mr. FRAZIER. Thank you, Mr. Warren. + +The CHAIRMAN. All right, bring in the next witness. + +The Commission will be in order. + +Mrs. Randle, I will just read you a brief statement of the purpose of +our meeting today. + +The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Buell Wesley +Frazier and Linnie Mae Randle. The Commission has been advised that +these two witnesses have stated that they saw Lee Harvey Oswald on the +morning of November 22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask these +witnesses questions concerning their knowledge of the assassination of +President Kennedy. + +You have a copy of that, do you not? + +Very well, Mr. Ball will conduct the examination. + +Will you rise and be sworn, please? + +Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission +will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help +you God? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. Please be seated. + +Mr. Ball? + + +TESTIMONY OF LINNIE MAE RANDLE + +Mr. BALL. Mrs. Randle, where do you live? + +Mrs. RANDLE. 2438 Westfield, Irving, Tex. + +Mr. BALL. And you live there with your husband and three daughters, do +you? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And your brother? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Wesley? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How long has Wesley been living there? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Since September, somewhere around the first, I am not sure +just the date. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know Mrs. Ruth Paine? + +Mrs. RANDLE. She is a neighbor that lives up the street from me. + +Mr. BALL. When did you first meet Mrs. Paine? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Well, for a period, I am not sure of this, it is quite 2 +years, I lived across the street from her. I didn't visit with her, but +I visited with her neighbor who lives next door. + +Mr. BALL. What is her name? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Mrs. Dorothy Roberts. + +Mr. BALL. That is on Fifth Street in Irving, Tex.? + +Mrs. RANDLE. That is right; yes. + +Mr. BALL. That was before you moved down the street to the corner of +Westfield and Fifth Street? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You had never visited in Mrs. Paine's home? + +Mrs. RANDLE. I was in her home on one occasion that I remember at a +birthday party for one of her children and she invited mine. + +Mr. BALL. How long ago? + +Mrs. RANDLE. It has been about a year ago. + +Mr. BALL. That is the only time you have visited Mrs. Paine? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever meet Marina Oswald? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. BALL. When did you meet her? + +Mrs. RANDLE. The first time I met her was over at this Mrs. Roberts. +I had gone up there to see Mrs. Roberts and her, Mrs. Oswald and Mrs. +Paine was over there drinking coffee, that was the first time I met her. + +Mr. BALL. When was that? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I believe it was the first week in October. + +Mr. BALL. That is the first time you had ever met Mrs. Oswald? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Officially met her. I had seen her out in the yard and +through the neighbor I knew who she was. I hadn't met her until that +time. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see her again to talk to her, Marina Oswald? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Well, she couldn't speak English, "How are you" and things +like that was about all she could say and I did visit with Mrs. Roberts +quite often and so she would be out in the yard and she would speak. + +Mr. BALL. In whose yards, Mrs. Roberts' yard or Mrs. Paine's? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Mrs. Paine's. She played with her children, and kept the +yard and things like that. + +Mr. BALL. But on this one occasion she was in the house, Mrs. Roberts' +house? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Mrs. Roberts. + +Mr. BALL. With Mrs. Paine, Mrs. Roberts and yourself? + +Mrs. RANDLE. That is right. + +Mr. BALL. Was there some conversation at that time about her husband +Lee Oswald? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Well, they had--it was just general knowledge in the +neighborhood that he didn't have a job and she was expecting a baby. Of +course, I didn't know where he was or anything. And of course you know +just being neighborly and everything, we felt sorry for Marina because +her baby was due right away as we understood it, and he didn't have any +work, so they said, so it was just---- + +Mr. BALL. Mrs. Paine told you that Lee didn't have any work? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I suppose. It was just in conversation. + +Mr. BALL. Marina didn't take part in the conversation? + +Mrs. RANDLE. No. She couldn't. So far as I know, she couldn't speak. + +Mr. BALL. You and Mrs. Roberts and Mrs. Paine talked about it? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Was there anything said then about the Texas School Book +Depository as a place he might get a job? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Well, we didn't say that he might get a job, because +I didn't know there was a job open. The reason that we were being +helpful, Wesley had just looked for a job, and I had helped him to try +to find one. We listed several places that he might go to look for +work. When you live in a place you know some places that someone with, +you know, not very much of an education can find work. + +So, it was among one of the places that we mentioned. We mentioned +several others, and Mrs. Paine said that well, he couldn't apply for +any of the jobs that would require driving because he couldn't drive, +and it was just in conversation that you might talk just any day and +not think a thing on earth about it. In fact, I didn't even know that +he had even tried any place that we mentioned. + +Mr. BALL. What were some of the other places mentioned? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I remember two of them. Mrs. Roberts entered into +the conversation and, of course, she is more familiar with the place +than I am. It was Manor Bakeries which was a home delivery service. + +Then there was this Texas Gypsum which makes sheet rock and things like +that, and we mentioned because Wesley had tried those places that I +mentioned those. + +Mr. BALL. And then you also mentioned the Texas Book Depository? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I didn't know there was a job opening over there. + +Mr. BALL. But did you mention it? + +Mrs. RANDLE. But we said he might try over there. There might be +work over there because it was the busy season but I didn't have any +previous knowledge that there was any job opening. + +Mr. BALL. Did you later learn that Lee had applied for a job? + +Mrs. RANDLE. She told me, Mrs. Paine told me, later that he had applied +for the job, and had gotten the job and she thanked us for naming the +places and things like that. + +Mr. BALL. Did you tell your brother that a fellow named Lee Oswald was +going to work for them? + +Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir; I didn't even know his name. She said Lee so I +just assumed that was his last name and I just merely mentioned to +Wesley that he had got the job or a job over there. + +Mr. BALL. That Lee had the job? + +Mrs. RANDLE. That Mrs. Paine said that, I had told Wesley that he +might--that she said he was going to call over there. + +In fact, Mrs. Paine asked me if I would call and see if there was a +job available and I told her, no, that I didn't know anybody over +there, and if she wanted to call over the place she would have to do it +because I didn't know if there was any job openings over there. + +Mr. BALL. You told Wesley, though, that you had--Mrs. Paine had told +you that Lee had applied for a job and gotten a job there? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Sir, I don't remember if I mentioned it to him or not. + +Mr. BALL. When you said a moment ago that you had mentioned something +to Wesley? + +Mrs. RANDLE. I might have had. But I can't say for sure I did because +at the time it was unimportant to me. It didn't really matter. + +Mr. BALL. In other words, you are not sure whether you did or didn't? + +Mrs. RANDLE. That is right. I might have, I don't know maybe for sure +if I did. + +Mr. BALL. Did Lee tell you at sometime that he had started to drive? + +Mrs. RANDLE. I never talked to Lee. + +Mr. BALL. Did Wesley tell you that he was driving Lee home weekends or +driving him to Irving weekends? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Wesley had told me that he asked to ride out on weekends. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him arrive with Lee? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Do you recall on a Thursday night, November 21 that you saw +Lee get out of Wesley's car? + +Mrs. RANDLE. That is right. + +Mr. BALL. About what time of night was it? + +Mrs. RANDLE. About 5:20, I believe, 5:15 or 5:25 something like that. + +Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him? + +Mrs. RANDLE. I was on my way to the grocery store. + +Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Wesley about the fact that he had brought Lee +home on this night? + +Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you think it was unusual that he had come home that night? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I knew that he had--Friday is the only time he had +ever ridden with him before which was a couple of times, I don't think +he rode with him over three times, I am not sure but I never did know +of him arriving, you know, except on Friday. + +Mr. BALL. Well, did you mention to Wesley that night or did you ask +Wesley that night how Lee happened to come home on Thursday? + +Mrs. RANDLE. I might have asked him. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything about curtain rods? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What do you remember about that? + +Mrs. RANDLE. He had told Wesley---- + +Mr. BALL. Tell me what Wesley told you. + +Mrs. RANDLE. What Wesley told me. That Lee had rode home with him to +get some curtain rods from Mrs. Paine to fix up his apartment. + +Mr. BALL. When did Wesley tell you that? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Well, that afternoon I suppose I would have had to ask +him, he wouldn't have just told me. + +Mr. BALL. You mean that night? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. After he came home? + +Mrs. RANDLE. I was on my way to the store. So I probably asked him when +I got back what he was doing riding home with him on Thursday afternoon. + +Mr. BALL. You think that was the time that Wesley told you---- + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; after I got back home. + +Mr. BALL. That Lee had come home to get some curtain rods? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, I am sure he told me that. + +Mr. BALL. The next morning did you get breakfast for Wesley, you, and +your mother? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes; mother and my children. + +Mr. BALL. And you were packing his lunch, too, were you? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see Lee? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, I did. + +Mr. BALL. Where did you see him? + +Mrs. RANDLE. I saw him as he crossed the street and come across my +driveway to where Wesley had his car parked by the carport. + +Mr. BALL. What street did he cross to go over? + +Mrs. RANDLE. He crossed Westbrook. + +Mr. BALL. And you saw him walking along, did you? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Was he carrying any package? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes; he was. + +Mr. BALL. What was he carrying? + +Mrs. RANDLE. He was carrying a package in a sort of a heavy brown bag, +heavier than a grocery bag it looked to me. It was about, if I might +measure, about this long, I suppose, and he carried it in his right +hand, had the top sort of folded down and had a grip like this, and the +bottom, he carried it this way, you know, and it almost touched the +ground as he carried it. + +Mr. BALL. Let me see. He carried it in his right hand, did he? + +Mrs. RANDLE. That is right. + +Mr. BALL. And where was his hand gripping the middle of the package? + +Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir; the top with just a little bit sticking up. You +know just like you grab something like that. + +Mr. BALL. And he was grabbing it with his right hand at the top of the +package and the package almost touched the ground? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. He walked over to your house, did he? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I saw him as he started crossing the street. Where +he come from then I couldn't say. + +Mr. BALL. You don't know where he went from that? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Where he went? + +Mr. BALL. Did you see him go to the car? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What did he do? + +Mrs. RANDLE. He opened the right back door and I just saw that he was +laying the package down so I closed the door. I didn't recognize him +as he walked across my carport and I at that moment I wondered who was +fixing to come to my back door so I opened the door slightly and saw +that it--I assumed he was getting in the car but he didn't, so he come +back and stood on the driveway. + +Mr. BALL. He put the package in the car. + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; I don't know if he put it on the seat or on the +floor but I just know he put it in the back. + +Mr. BALL. We have got a package here which is marked Commission Exhibit +No. 364. You have seen this before, I guess, haven't you, I think the +FBI showed it to you? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Was the color of that package in any way similar to the color +of this package which is 364? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Similar kind of paper, wasn't it? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, was the length of it any similar, anywhere near similar? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Well, it wasn't that long, I mean it was folded down at +the top as I told you. It definitely wasn't that long. + +Mr. BALL. How about the width? + +Mrs. RANDLE. The width is about right. + +Mr. BALL. The width is about right. + +Can you stand up here and show us how he was carrying it. Using this +package as an example only? + +Mrs. RANDLE. What he had in there, it looked too long. + +Mr. BALL. This looks too long? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. About how long would you think the package would be, just +measure it right on there. + +Mrs. RANDLE. I would say about like this. + +Mr. BALL. You mean from here to here? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; with that folded down with this much for him to +grip in his hand. + +Mr. BALL. This package is about the span of my hand, say 8 inches, is +that right? He would have about this much to grip? + +Mrs. RANDLE. What I remember seeing is about this long, sir, as I told +you it was folded down so it could have been this long. + +Mr. BALL. I see. You figure about 2 feet long, is that right? + +Mrs. RANDLE. A little bit more. + +Mr. BALL. A little more than 2 feet. + +There is another package here. You remember this was shown you. It is a +discolored bag, which is Exhibit No. 142, and remember you were asked +by the Federal Bureau of Investigation agents if this looked like the +package; do you remember? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, first of all with color, you told them the bag was not +the color? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. But they showed you a part of the bag that had not been +discolored, didn't they? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Looking at this part of the bag which has not been discolored +does that appear similar to the color of the bag you saw Lee carrying +that morning? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes; it is a heavy type of wrapping paper. + +Mr. BALL. Now, with reference to the width of this bag, does that look +about the width of the bag that he was carrying? + +Mrs. RANDLE. I would say so; yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What about length? + +Mrs. RANDLE. You mean the entire bag? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mrs. RANDLE. There again you have the problem of all this down here. It +was folded down, of course, if you would take it from the bottom---- + +Mr. BALL. Fold it to about the size that you think it might be. + +Mrs. RANDLE. This is the bottom here, right. This is the bottom, this +part down here. + +Mr. BALL. I believe so, but I am not sure. But let's say it is. + +Mrs. RANDLE. And this goes this way, right? Do you want me to hold it? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mrs. RANDLE. About this. + +Mr. BALL. Is that about right? That is 28-1/2 inches. + +Mrs. RANDLE. I measured 27 last time. + +Mr. BALL. You measured 27 once before? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How was Lee dressed that morning? + +Mrs. RANDLE. He had on a white T-shirt, I just saw him from the waist +up, I didn't pay any attention to his pants or anything, when he was +going with the package. I was more interested in that. But he had on a +white T-shirt and I remember some sort of brown or tan shirt and he had +a gray jacket, I believe. + +Mr. BALL. A gray jacket. I will show you some clothing here. First, I +will show you a gray jacket. Does this look anything like the jacket he +had on? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. That morning? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Similar to that. I didn't pay an awful lot of attention to +it. + +Mr. BALL. Was it similar in color? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; I think so. It had big sleeves. + +Mr. BALL. Take a look at these sleeves. Was it similar in color? + +Mrs. RANDLE. I believe so. + +Mr. BALL. What is the Commission Exhibit on this jacket? + +Mrs. RANDLE. It was gray, I am not sure of the shade. + +Mr. BALL. 163. + +I will show you another shirt which is Commission No. 150. + +Does this look anything like the shirt he had on? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Well now, I don't remember it being that shade of brown. +It could have been but I was looking through the screen and out the +window but I don't remember it being exactly that. I thought it was a +solid color. + +Mr. BALL. Here is another jacket which is a gray jacket, does this look +anything like the jacket he had on? + +Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir; I remember its being gray. + +Mr. BALL. Well, this one is gray but of these two the jacket I last +showed you is Commission Exhibit No. 162, and this blue gray is 163, +now if you had to choose between these two? + +Mrs. RANDLE. I would choose the dark one. + +Mr. BALL. You would choose the dark one? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Which is 163, as being more similar to the jacket he had? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; that I remember. But I, you know, didn't pay an +awful lot of attention to his jacket. I remember his T-shirt and the +shirt more so than I do the jacket. + +Mr. BALL. The witness just stated that 163 which is the gray-blue is +similar to the jacket he had on. 162, the light gray jacket was not. + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. + +The CHAIRMAN.. Senator, have you any questions? + +Senator COOPER. No questions. + +The CHAIRMAN. Have you any questions, Mr. Powell? + +Mr. POWELL. No, sir. + +Senator COOPER. I think I do have one. + +Prior to the assassination of President Kennedy, did any FBI agents or +police officer ever visit your house? + +Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir. + +Senator COOPER. And said anything to you about Lee Oswald? + +Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Could I ask, Mr. Chief Justice, along the line Senator +Cooper touched on--whether there had been any conversation in the +neighborhood prior to the assassination of any FBI agents or police +officers having visited in the neighborhood? + +Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. You heard nothing along rumors of that kind? + +Mrs. RANDLE. No. Later, after all this was over, I had heard that they +had been to Mrs. Paine's residence. + +Mr. JENNER. But there was no excitement in the neighborhood up to that +point? + +Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I have one question, Mr. Chief Justice. + +You used an expression there, that the bag appeared heavy. + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You meant that there was some weight appeared to be---- + +Mrs. RANDLE. To the bottom. + +Mr. BALL. To the bottom? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes. It tapered like this as he hugged it in his hand. It +was more bulky toward the bottom than it was this way. + +Mr. BELIN. Toward the top? More bulky toward the bottom than toward the +top? + +Mrs. RANDLE. That is right. + +Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. + +Senator COOPER. On that point--did you see Lee Oswald place the package +in the automobile? + +Mrs. RANDLE. In the automobile. I do not know if he put it on the seat +or on the floor. + +Senator COOPER. I mean did you see him throw open the door? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. When he placed the package in there do you remember +whether he used one hand or two? + +Mrs. RANDLE. No; because I only opened the door briefly and what made +me establish the door on Wesley's car, it is an old car and that door, +the window is broken and everything and it is hard to close, so that +cinched in my mind which door it was, too. But it was only briefly that +I looked. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chief Justice, could I ask--how far away were you? You +were at the kitchen door and the automobile was in the driveway, what +was the distance between yourself and Mr. Oswald? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Sir, I don't know. The carport will take care of two cars, +and then Wesley's car was on the other side of the carport so that +would be three car lengths plus inbetween space. + +Mr. JENNER. Car widths? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Car widths, excuse me. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it a light day? + +Mrs. RANDLE. It was sort of cloudy, but there wasn't any--I mean it +wasn't dark or anything like that. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough as you can recall--can you recall +what the fabric of the jacket was that Mr. Oswald had on this morning, +was it twill or wool or gabardine? Cotton? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Probably cotton or gabardine, something like that that +would repel water probably, and that is just my own opinion. + +Mr. JENNER. That is your present recollection? + +Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Randle, thank you very much for coming, you may be +excused. + + +TESTIMONY OF CORTLANDT CUNNINGHAM + +Mr. BALL. Will you state your name for the record? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Cortlandt Cunningham. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Cunningham, will you raise your right hand and be +sworn, please? + +Do you solemnly swear the testimony given before this Commission will +be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you +God? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I do. + +Mr. BALL. Mr. Cunningham, be seated there. + +What is your business? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am a special agent of the FBI. + +Mr. BALL. What is your specialty with the FBI? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am assigned to the FBI laboratory in the Firearms +Identification Unit. + +Mr. BALL. There is a rifle here that has been identified as Commission +Exhibit No. 139, it has been in your custody, hasn't it? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It has. + +Mr. BALL. You brought it over here this morning? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I did. + +Mr. BALL. And I requested you disassemble it? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I did. + +Mr. BALL. Let's take it out of the sack and put it before the +Commission. + +Do you need any special tools to assemble this rifle? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I notice you have a screwdriver there. Can you assemble it +without the use of a screwdriver? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What can you use? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Any object that would fit the slots on the five screws +that retain the stock to the action. + +Mr. BALL. Could you do it with a 10-cent piece? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Will you do that--about how long will it take you? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I know I can do it, but I have never been timed as far +as using a dime. I have been timed using a screwdriver, which required +a little over 2 minutes. + +Mr. BALL. 2 minutes with a screwdriver. + +Try it with the dime and let's see how long it takes. + +Okay. Start now. Six minutes. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I think I can improve on that. + +Mr. BALL. And the only tool you used was a 10-cent piece? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. + +Mr. BALL. That is all. + +Senator COOPER. Does the bolt work all right now? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Once in a while with regard to the top portion--namely +the retaining screw and the top stock--you have trouble getting them +engaged on this particular model. + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is the case on this weapon. On that one over +there, however, it slid right on when I put it together a little while +ago; it was much faster. + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes. This is a weapon identical to the one that has been +identified as the assassination weapon? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. This is the assassination weapon. + +Mr. BALL. This is the weapon found on the sixth floor of the Texas Book +Depository. + +The CHAIRMAN. May I ask, have you fired it? + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Many times. + +The CHAIRMAN. That has been fired many times? + +Mr. BELIN. You can disassemble it in a lesser amount of time, I assume. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Definitely, it comes apart much faster. I can do it for +you. + +The CHAIRMAN. I understand with a screwdriver you put the rifle +together in 2 minutes. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; a few seconds over 2 minutes, somewhere +around 2-1/4, 2-1/2 minutes, readily. + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. And I am sure I can assemble it faster the second time +with a dime than I did the last time but I did have trouble with that +one retaining screw. + +The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything more you have on this? + +Mr. BALL. No. + +The CHAIRMAN. Anybody? + +Well, Agent Cunningham, thank you very much, sir. + +Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Thank you, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, if there are no further witnesses today, +we will adjourn for the day, and we will meet tomorrow morning at 9 +o'clock for the purpose of taking further testimony. + +(Whereupon, at 12:45 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +_Thursday, March 12, 1964_ + +TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM WAYNE WHALEY AND CECIL J. McWATTERS + +The President's Commission met at 9:20 a.m. on March 12, 1964, 200 +Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. + +Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Cooper +and Representative Gerald R. Ford, members. + +Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Joseph A. Ball, +assistant counsel; David W. Belin, assistant counsel; Melvin Aron +Eisenberg, assistant counsel; Lewis F. Powell, Jr. and Charles Murray, +observers. + + +TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM WAYNE WHALEY + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Whaley, the purpose of our meeting today is to +take some further testimony concerning the events surrounding the +assassination of President Kennedy, and we understand you have some +facts that will bear on it in a way and we would like to ask you +questions concerning it. + +Will you rise, please, raise your right hand to be sworn? + +Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing +but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. WHALEY. I do, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please? Mr. Ball will conduct the +examination. + +Mr. BALL. Mr. Whaley, what is your business? + +Mr. WHALEY. I am a taxi driver, sir. + +Mr. BALL. How long have you been a taxi driver? + +Mr. WHALEY. 37 years. + +Mr. BALL. You worked all that time in Dallas? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What is your residence? + +Mr. WHALEY. 619 Pine Street, Route 2, Louisville, Tex., 26 miles north +of Dallas. + +Mr. BALL. But you drive a taxicab in Dallas? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Whom do you work for? + +Mr. WHALEY. City Transportation Company. + +Mr. BALL. You are an employee of theirs, are you? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. You don't own your own cab? + +Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; they don't allow that in that city. + +Mr. BALL. How long have you worked for that company? + +Mr. WHALEY. 37 years. Not for that company, sir, but for the original +owners, it started out. I have been in with that original company but +all banded together in one cab company. + +Mr. BALL. Were you on duty on the 22nd of November 1963? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What were your hours that day at work? + +Mr. WHALEY. Well, my hours run from 6 to 4, sir; 6 in the morning to 4 +in the afternoon. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of a cab were you driving on that day? + +Mr. WHALEY. A 1961 Checker. + +Mr. BALL. Was it equipped with radio equipment? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You can call in to your dispatcher? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I can. + +Mr. BALL. By a two-way radio? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Do you operate on cab stands or do you cruise? + +Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; you just go out in the morning and wherever they +send you you go to work and wherever you unload you check in they give +you another call like that. + +Mr. BALL. About 12:30 that day where were you? + +Mr. WHALEY. Well, about 12:30 as you say, sir; I was at the Greyhound +bus station. I have a copy of my trip sheet here. + +Mr. BALL. Could I see that, please? + +Mr. WHALEY. The FBI took the original and the pictures of the cab and +everything. + +Mr. BALL. That is what I have been waiting for. + +Mr. WHALEY. I think it is supposed to be delivered to you, sir. + +Mr. BALL. That is right. I am glad you have that copy. + +Mr. WHALEY. I thought maybe you might need it. You look down there it +says Greyhound, 500 North Beckley, I think it is marked 12:30 to 12:45. +Now that could have been 10 minutes off in each direction because I +didn't use a watch, I just guess, in other words, all my trips are +marked about 15 minutes each. + +Mr. BALL. I am going to let you use this manifest to refresh your +memory, Mr. Whaley. I have seen it. I am going to ask you some +questions and you refresh your memory if you will from the manifest. + +First of all, describe the document you are using, what is that? + +Mr. WHALEY. It is a trip sheet manifest. The company gets the amount of +money you have run, your meter reading and all, and they have to keep +it because of the city ordinance requirement that the taxis make this +kind of manifest. + +Mr. BALL. Tell me when you make the entries, you make the entries when? + +Mr. WHALEY. Sometimes I make them right after I make the trips, sir, +and sometimes I make three or four trips before I make the entries. + +Mr. BALL. Are you required by your employer to describe the trip, where +you went, how far it was? + +Mr. WHALEY. Not by the employer, sir. All the employers are interested +in are the meter reading and your tolls. The city of Dallas ordinance +requires that you put down where you picked the passenger up, where you +unload the passenger. They are not interested in the price, the number +of passengers and the time. + +Mr. BALL. Now, the manifest does contain that information, though, does +it? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; it does. + +Mr. BALL. Will you describe the different columns of the manifest, that +information that is in each column generally? + +Mr. WHALEY. Over on the left side, where you see call or pickup, if you +get the call on your radio you mark with a "C" and if somebody hails +you on the street that is marked "P" for pickup. + +In the next column it has the trip numbers from one to fifty. + +Mr. BALL. The number of the trips you make that day? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. In the third column it says "from." Like this +first one, 4924 Belmont and then to the next column, to the airport. + +The next column is the "meter reading," what the meter said, $1.75. The +next column says "flat rate." If it had been an extra passenger or so +and you had a flat rate you would put it in that column. + +The third column is "charge," the people who have the charge accounts +through the company in the car, you put the meter reading in there +because you don't get cash and you put charge, the company takes it off. + +The next column says the number of passengers and that first trip was +four passengers, time out six o'clock, I got that trip out of the barn +and it is marked "call." + +6:20 is "time in." "Mileage in" was 44. Now, see I didn't put the +mileage out on the first one, the mileage out is up here, 35 to 44. It +would have been nine miles I made on the first trip. + +Over here on the side here, it has the number of trips I made that +day which is 21, on the meter registered 21 trips 45 cents a trip is +$9.45. 157 units, a unit is a dime clicks every four-tenths of a mile. +That would be 157 units at $15.70. Added total of $25.15. I used 5-1/2 +gallons of gas, had eight pickups in 13 calls and 29 passengers. That +is it complete, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I see. + +Now, look at your manifest and tell me where you were at 12 o'clock the +day of November 22, 1963. + +Mr. WHALEY. 12 o'clock I got a call to the Travis Hotel. I have got it +marked 16 which is the Continental bus station, stand No. 15, 55 cents. +I unloaded that at 12:15. + +Mr. BALL. Then where did you go at 12:15 according to your record? + +Mr. WHALEY. According to my record I got a pickup at the Continental +bus station which is stand 16 and went to the Greyhound which is 55 +cents. I unloaded at the Greyhound, I have got it marked 12:30. See +there is that 15 minutes you say I am off, I just mark it 15, I don't +put the correct time on the sheet because they don't require it, sir, +but anywhere approximate. + +Mr. BALL. In other words, it took you about 15 minutes to go---- + +Mr. WHALEY. It actually took about nine minutes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And you put the trip ending Greyhound around 12:30? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You remember that trip, do you, you remember the fact that +you took the trip to the Greyhound and parked your car at the Greyhound +or your cab at the Greyhound, don't you? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I remember it. + +Mr. BALL. Were you standing at the Greyhound, at your cab stand at the +Greyhound, long before you picked up another passenger? + +Mr. WHALEY. No, sir, there was no one at the Greyhound stand and when +I unloaded at the door I just pulled up about 30 feet to the stand +and stopped and then I wanted a package of cigarettes, I was out so I +started to get out and I saw this passenger coming so I waited for him. + +Mr. BALL. He was coming down the street? + +Mr. WHALEY. He was walking down the street. + +Mr. BALL. What street was he walking down? + +Mr. WHALEY. Lamar. + +Mr. BALL. Would that mean he was walking south on Lamar? + +Mr. WHALEY. He was walking south on Lamar from Commerce when I saw him. + +Mr. BALL. That would be on which side of the street? + +Mr. WHALEY. The west side of the street. + +Mr. BALL. South on Lamar? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you notice how he was dressed? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. I didn't pay much attention to it right then. But +it all came back when I really found out who I had. He was dressed in +just ordinary work clothes. It wasn't khaki pants but they were khaki +material, blue faded blue color, like a blue uniform made in khaki. +Then he had on a brown shirt with a little silverlike stripe on it and +he had on some kind of jacket, I didn't notice very close but I think +it was a work jacket that almost matched the pants. + +He, his shirt was open three buttons down here. He had on a T-shirt. +You know, the shirt was open three buttons down there. + +Mr. BALL. Now, what happened after that, will you tell us in your own +words what he did? + +Mr. WHALEY. Well, on this which was the 14th trip when I picked up at +the Greyhound I marked it 12:30 to 12:45. + +Mr. BALL. You say that can be off 15 minutes? + +Mr. WHALEY. That can be off either direction. + +Mr. BALL. Anything up to 15 minutes, you say? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I wrote that trip up the same time I wrote the +one up from the Continental bus station to the Greyhound, I marked this +12:15 to 12:30 and started 12:30 to 12:45. And the next one starts at +1:15 to 1:30 and it goes on all day long every 15 minutes the time +keeps pretty approximate. + +Mr. BALL. Let's take the 12:30 trip, tell me about that, what the +passenger said. + +Mr. WHALEY. He said, "May I have the cab?" + +I said, "You sure can. Get in." And instead of opening the back door he +opened the front door, which is allowable there, and got in. + +Mr. BALL. Got in the front door? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. The front seat. And about that time an old lady, +I think she was an old lady, I don't remember nothing but her sticking +her head down past him in the door and said, "Driver, will you call me +a cab down here?" + +She had seen him get this cab and she wanted one, too, and he opened +the door a little bit like he was going to get out and he said, "I will +let you have this one," and she says, "No, the driver can call me one." + +So, I didn't call one because I knew before I could call one one would +come around the block and keep it pretty well covered. + +Mr. BALL. Is that what you said? + +Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; that is not what I said, but that is the reason I +didn't call one at the time and I asked him where he wanted to go. And +he said, "500 North Beckley." + +Well, I started up, I started to that address, and the police cars, the +sirens was going, running crisscrossing everywhere, just a big uproar +in that end of town and I said, "What the hell. I wonder what the hell +is the uproar?" + +And he never said anything. So I figured he was one of these people +that don't like to talk so I never said any more to him. + +But when I got pretty close to 500 block at Neches and North Beckley +which is the 500 block, he said, "This will do fine," and I pulled over +to the curb right there. He gave me a dollar bill, the trip was 95 +cents. He gave me a dollar bill and didn't say anything, just got out +and closed the door and walked around the front of the cab over to the +other side of the street. Of course, traffic was moving through there +and I put it in gear and moved on, that is the last I saw of him. + +Mr. BALL. When you parked your car you parked on what street? + +Mr. WHALEY. I wasn't parked, I was pulled to the curb on Neches and +North Beckley. + +Mr. BALL. Neches, corner of Neches and North Beckley? + +Mr. WHALEY. Which is the 500 block. + +Mr. BALL. What direction was your car? + +Mr. WHALEY. South. + +Mr. BALL. The cab was headed? + +Mr. WHALEY. South. + +Mr. BALL. And it would be on the west side of the street? + +Mr. WHALEY. Parked, stopped on the west side of the intersection, yes, +sir. + +Mr. BALL. When he got out of the cab did he go around in front of your +cab? + +Mr. WHALEY. He went around in front, yes, sir; crossed the street. + +Mr. BALL. Across to the east side of the street? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see whether he walked south? + +Mr. WHALEY. I didn't see whether he walked north or south from there. + +Mr. BALL. In other words, he walked east from your cab and that is the +last time you saw him? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Was there anything in particular about him beside his +clothing that you could identify such as jewelry, bracelets? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; he had on a bracelet of some type on his left +arm. It looked like an identification bracelet. Just shiny, you know, +how you see anything shiny, an unusual watchband or something shiny, +you notice things like that. + +Mr. BALL. I have a map of Dallas here, which I would like to have +marked as the Commission's next exhibit which is Exhibit No. 371. + +The CHAIRMAN. It will be so marked. + +(The map referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 371 for +identification.) + +Mr. BALL. I would like to offer into evidence Exhibits Nos. 368 and 369 +that were marked yesterday. + +The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted. + +(Commission Exhibits Nos. 368 and 369, heretofore marked for +identification, were received in evidence.) + +Mr. BALL. And 371 being a form map of Dallas can probably be offered +in evidence at this time. It is going to be used to illustrate the +witness' testimony. + +The CHAIRMAN. That may be done. + +(Commission Exhibit No. 371, heretofore marked for identification was +received in evidence.) + +Mr. BALL. There is a map here which is described as Dallas street map, +Republic National Bank of Dallas, and in one corner of this map there +is shown a small map of downtown Dallas. + +Will you point on the map there to the Greyhound bus station? + +Let's take the small map. It was on the corner of Jackson? + +Mr. WHALEY. And Lamar. + +Mr. BALL. And Lamar. + +Mr. WHALEY. The northwest corner, Greyhound bus station. + +Mr. BALL. You have seen this map before, have you not? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I am very familiar with that map. + +Mr. BALL. And let's take Lamar, here is Jackson. + +Mr. WHALEY. Lamar is down here, sir. + +Mr. BALL. This is Jackson, this is the Houston viaduct. + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Here is Jackson, and Lamar is right there. + +Mr. WHALEY. Well, the Greyhound bus station is on the northwest corner. + +Mr. BALL. Suppose we make an "X" there at Jackson. + +Mr. WHALEY. All right, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And Lamar. That is where you picked your passenger up? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. When you started out which direction did you go, and before +you mark just take this blunt end and then we will mark it after you +describe it on the map. + +Now, the next street is Austin, just to the west of Lamar? + +Mr. WHALEY. That is right. + +Mr. BALL. All right. + +Mr. WHALEY. I turned to the left. + +Mr. BALL. All right. + +Mr. WHALEY. I turned to the left off Lamar onto Jackson, went one block +to Austin, then from Austin I turned to the left again and went one +block over to Wood Street. + +Now, the reason for that is if you catch this light right at Lamar and +Jackson, this other light turns green as you make your turn here and +the other one turns green as you make your turn at Wood. You just move +through traffic. That was my reason for making the turn. + +Then I turned left on Wood off Austin and went straight on down Wood to +Houston which is the street which we call the old viaduct. + +Mr. BALL. You call that the Houston Street viaduct? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes. + +(At this point Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) + +Mr. WHALEY. Went across the viaduct to Zangs, as soon as you get across +the angle to the left, that is Zangs Boulevard. + +Mr. BALL. Take the black pen and draw your course along this small map +as far as you can go and we will go to the continuation of the map. + +Now, can you tell us--did everybody see this course--now can you tell +us where you were when the sirens were blowing and you saw police cars +all around? + +Mr. WHALEY. I was still at the Greyhound, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You were still there? + +Mr. WHALEY. They were there when I loaded. + +Mr. BALL. Now, in the course of your travel down to the Houston viaduct +did you see any police cars? + +Mr. WHALEY. Oh, yes, sir; lots of them, what we call triangle, +three-wheeled motorcycle, they all seemed to be converging on one spot. + +Mr. BALL. What spot? + +Mr. WHALEY. Well, it seemed to be the courthouse, that is what it +seemed to me at that time. I didn't know what had happened. + +Mr. BALL. The courthouse is about a block from the Texas State Book +Depository? + +Mr. WHALEY. You could throw a baseball from one building to the other. + +Mr. BALL. Now we will turn to the large map and we will still use +the--get downtown. Here we are. Will you use--Lamar and Jackson again. + +Mr. WHALEY. This will be kind of ticklish because that is very small. + +Mr. BALL. That is right. + +Mr. WHALEY. Main, Commerce, Jackson, Lamar. + +Mr. BALL. Do the same thing. + +Mr. WHALEY. To Austin, to Wood, to Houston, to the viaduct, across +the viaduct, let's see, Colorado comes in off this, this is the Zangs +Boulevard, the red line where it hits Marcel is here, that is Zangs +Boulevard. Up past Colorado, still going Zangs here. + +Mr. BALL. You are going along Zangs, will you go along---- + +Mr. WHALEY. I am trying to find Beckley, the green light changed from +red to green on Beckley, right here is an intersection; Zangs Boulevard +goes on up, and Beckley turns off. + +Mr. BALL. Here is Neches right here. + +Mr. WHALEY. Let me see where Neches is, is that right? Yes, that is it. +This is the intersection right there. + +Mr. BALL. We put an "X" there. + +Mr. WHALEY. That is where he got off. + +Mr. BALL. That is where you dropped your passenger, is that right? + +Mr. WHALEY. That is--as far as I can see that is Neches. + +Mr. BALL. That is Neches, that is Beckley. + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; that is right, because that is the 500 block of +North Beckley. + +Mr. BALL. Now, we will mark the beginning of your trip on the large map +as "Y", and where you dropped your passenger as an "X". + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. "Y" is the corner of Lamar and Jackson, and "X" is the corner +of Neches and Beckley. + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. O.K. + +Can you tell me what distance that was? + +Mr. WHALEY. Well, it was 95 cents on the meter, the meter starts off at +45 cents, then it goes four-tenths of a mile and it clicks a dime which +would be 55, then a dime every four-tenths of a mile after that and it +was almost ready to click a $1.05 when it stopped, so I imagine that +would be 55 cents, would be eight-tenths of a mile and then after the +first 45 cents it runs 25 cents a mile, because it gets a dime every +four-tenths. + +Mr. BALL. So you had 95 cents? + +Mr. WHALEY. 65 cents would be three, four-tenths, would be 1 mile and +two-tenths. 75 would be one mile and six-tenths. 85 would be one--would +be 2 miles. 95 would be 2 and four-tenths, almost ready to click. + +Mr. BALL. What do you give them for 45 cents? + +Mr. WHALEY. Four-tenths of a mile. + +Mr. BALL. Four-tenths of a mile? + +Mr. WHALEY. It goes four-tenths of a mile. + +Mr. BALL. Five clicks after the first? + +Mr. WHALEY. 45 cents. + +Mr. BALL. Well, then, you ran about---- + +Mr. WHALEY. About 2-1/2 miles, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Two and one-half miles? + +Mr. WHALEY. Approximately. + +Mr. BALL. Two miles and four-tenths approximately. + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Can you give me any estimate of the time it took you to go +that 2-1/2 miles? + +Mr. WHALEY. Not actually, sir. I run it again with the policeman +because the policeman was worried, he run the same trip and he couldn't +come out the same time I did. But he was turning off of Jackson and +Lamar when the light was wrong, and he was hitting a red light at +Wood--I mean at Austin and Jackson and he hit a red light at Wood and +Austin, then he hit a red light at Houston. Where I wait to make my +turn until the light is right just after it has been green, almost +ready for it to come red, turn right then, then the other lights turn +green just as fast as you get to them, go on right through, you save +about 2 minutes in traffic that way. That is where I got the 2 minutes +on him he never could make up. So I had to go back with him to make +that trip to to show him I was right. + +Mr. BALL. How much time, in that experiment, when you hit the lights +right, how long did it take you? + +Mr. WHALEY. Nine minutes. + +Mr. BALL. Nine minutes? + +Mr. WHALEY. Nine minutes. + +Representative FORD. Now on this particular trip with Oswald, do you +recall the lights being with you? + +Mr. WHALEY. They were with me, sir; for I timed them that way before I +took off. Because I made that so much that I know the light system and +how they are going to turn. + +Representative FORD. So this was a typical trip? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. The witness has been driving a taxicab in Dallas for 36 +years. + +Mr. WHALEY. Thirty-seven, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. Thirty-seven. + +Mr. WHALEY. You name an intersection in the city of Dallas and I will +tell you what is on all four corners. + +Mr. BALL. Did you stop and let your passenger out on this run on the +north or south side of the intersection? + +Mr. WHALEY. On the north side, sir. + +Mr. BALL. North side? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. That would be---- + +Mr. WHALEY. Northwest corner. + +Mr. BALL. Northwest corner of Neches and Beckley? + +Mr. WHALEY. Northwest corner of Neches and Beckley. + +Mr. BALL. I have some clothing here. Commission Exhibit No. 150, does +that look like the shirt? + +Mr. WHALEY. That is the shirt, sir, it has my initials on it. + +Mr. BALL. In other words, this is the shirt the man had on? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; that is the same one the FBI man had me identify. + +Mr. BALL. This is the shirt the man had on who took your car at Lamar +and Jackson? + +Mr. WHALEY. As near as I can recollect as I told him. I said that is +the shirt he had on because it had a kind of little stripe in it, +light-colored stripe. I noticed that. + +Mr. BALL. Here are two pair of pants, Commission Exhibit No. 157 and +Commission Exhibit No. 156. Does it look anything like that? + +Mr. WHALEY. I don't think I can identify the pants except they were the +same color as that, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Which color? + +Mr. WHALEY. More like this lighter color, at least they were cleaner or +something. + +Mr. BALL. That is 157? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. But you are not sure about that? + +Mr. WHALEY. I am not sure about the pants. I wouldn't be sure of the +shirt if it hadn't had that light stripe in it. I just noticed that. + +Mr. BALL. Here is Commission No. 162 which is a gray jacket with zipper. + +Mr. WHALEY. I think that is the jacket he had on when he rode with me +in the cab. + +Mr. BALL. Look something like it? + +And here is Commission Exhibit No. 163, does this look like anything he +had on? + +Mr. WHALEY. He had this one on or the other one. + +Mr. BALL. That is right. + +Mr. WHALEY. That is what I told you I noticed. I told you about the +shirt being open, he had on the two jackets with the open shirt. + +Mr. BALL. Wait a minute, we have got the shirt which you have +identified as the rust brown shirt with the gold stripe in it. + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You said that a jacket---- + +Mr. WHALEY. That jacket now it might have been clean, but the jacket he +had on looked more the color, you know like a uniform set, but he had +this coat here on over that other jacket, I am sure, sir. + +Mr. BALL. This is the blue-gray jacket, heavy blue-gray jacket. + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Later that day did you--were you called down to the police +department? + +Mr. WHALEY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Were you the next day? + +Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; they came and got me, sir, the next day after +I told my superior when I saw in the paper his picture, I told my +superiors that that had been my passenger that day at noon. They called +up the police and they came up and got me. + +Mr. BALL. When you saw in the newspaper the picture of the man? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You went to your superior and told him you thought he was +your passenger? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did the Dallas police come out to see you? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Or FBI agents? + +Mr. WHALEY. The Dallas police came down and took me down and the FBI +was waiting there. + +Mr. BALL. Before they brought you down did they show you a picture? + +Mr. WHALEY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. They didn't? + +Mr. WHALEY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. They brought you down to the Dallas police station? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do there? + +Mr. WHALEY. Well, I tried to get by the reporters, stepping over +television cables and you couldn't hardly get by, they would grab +you and wanted to know what you were doing down here, even with the +detectives one in front and one behind you. Then they took me in +an office there and I think Bill Alexander, the Assistant District +Attorney, two or three, I was introduced to two or three who were FBI +men and they wanted my deposition of what happened. + +So, I told them to the best of my ability. Then they took me down in +their room where they have their show-ups, and all, and me and this +other taxi driver who was with me, sir, we sat in the room awhile and +directly they brought in six men, young teenagers, and they all were +handcuffed together. Well, they wanted me to pick out my passenger. + +At that time he had on a pair of black pants and white T-shirt, that is +all he had on. But you could have picked him out without identifying +him by just listening to him because he was bawling out the policeman, +telling them it wasn't right to put him in line with these teen-agers +and all of that and they asked me which one and I told them. It was him +all right, the same man. + +Mr. BALL. They had him in line with men much younger? + +Mr. WHALEY. With five others. + +Mr. BALL. Men much younger? + +Mr. WHALEY. Not much younger, but just young kids they might have got +them in jail. + +Mr. BALL. Did he look older than those other boys? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And he was talking, was he? + +Mr. WHALEY. He showed no respect for the policemen, he told them what +he thought about them. They knew what they were doing and they were +trying to railroad him and he wanted his lawyer. + +Mr. BALL. Did that aid you in the identification of the man? + +Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; it wouldn't have at all, except that I said +anybody who wasn't sure could have picked out the right one just for +that. It didn't aid me because I knew he was the right one as soon as I +saw him. + +Mr. BALL. You don't think that that in any way influenced your +identification? + +Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; it did not. When you drive a taxi, sir, as long as +I have, you can almost look at a man, in fact, you have to, to be able +to tell whether you can trust or whether you can't trust him, what he +is. + +Now, like you got in my taxicab and I looked you over and you told me +just wait for me here and went in the building, well, I will have to +know whether I could just say, "OK, sir." Or say, "Will you leave me a +$5 bill, sir?" + +When you drive a taxi that long you learn to judge people and what I +actually thought of the man when he got in was that he was a wino who +had been off his bottle for about two days, that is the way he looked, +sir, that was my opinion of him. + +Mr. BALL. What was there about his appearance that gave you that +impression? Hair mussed? + +Mr. WHALEY. Just the slow way he walked up. He didn't talk. He wasn't +in any hurry. He wasn't nervous or anything. + +Mr. BALL. He didn't run? + +Mr. WHALEY. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did he look dirty? + +Mr. WHALEY. He looked like his clothes had been slept in, sir, but +he wasn't actually dirty. The T-shirt was a little soiled around the +collar but the bottom part of it was white. You have to know those +winos, or they will get in and ride with you and there isn't nothing +you can do but call the police, the city gets the fine and you get +nothing. + +Mr. BALL. Who was the other cab driver? + +Mr. WHALEY. I don't know his name, sir. He worked for the same company +but he works out of the Oak Cliff branch. They say he was the one who +saw him kill the policeman, the one who used the policeman's microphone. + +Mr. BALL. Is that Mr. Scoggins? + +Mr. WHALEY. What is his name? + +Mr. BALL. Scoggins. + +Mr. WHALEY. It could have been, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You don't know him? + +Mr. WHALEY. I just know he drives taxi 213. He works out of Oak Cliff +branch. + +Mr. BALL. I would like to have a copy of the manifest temporarily +marked 370. + +Mr. WHALEY. You may have it, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Commission 370, and offer it into evidence and ask leave to +submit the original, if it is brought in, when it is brought here by +the FBI. + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes, it may be admitted. + +(The manifest referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 370 for +identification and received in evidence.) + +Mr. BALL. This will be 370. + +Could we excuse Mr. Whaley now? There are two pieces of evidence to be +here and they are not here. + +The CHAIRMAN. Excuse him and we will take the other witness. + +Mr. BALL. We will excuse him and take the other witness. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Whaley, will you wait outside until we get the other +exhibits and we will finish with you very shortly. + +Mr. McWatters, would you be seated please. + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. The Commission is meeting today to take further testimony +concerning the events surrounding the assassination of President +Kennedy, and it is our understanding that you have some information +that would bear on that subject, and that is the reason for our asking +you to come here and testify. + +Would you raise your right hand to be sworn please. + +Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission +will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help +you God? + +Mr. McWATTERS. I do. + + +TESTIMONY OF CECIL J. McWATTERS + +The CHAIRMAN. Would you be seated please, and Mr. Ball will conduct the +interrogation. + +Mr. BALL. Mr. McWatters. + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What is your business? + +Mr. McWATTERS. I am a bus driver. + +Mr. BALL. How long have you been a bus driver? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Let's see, this coming September will be 19 years. + +Mr. BALL. Whom do you work for? + +Mr. McWATTERS. The Dallas Transit Company. + +Mr. BALL. How long have you worked for the Dallas Transit Company? + +Mr. McWATTERS. It will be 19 years in September, I believe. + +Mr. BALL. Where do you live? + +Mr. McWATTERS. 2523 Blyth Drive, Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. BALL. On November 22,1963, were you on duty as a driver? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What kind of a bus were you driving? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I was driving a 44-passenger, let's see, it is a +44-passenger city bus made by White, I believe is the maker of the bus. + +Mr. BALL. What hours of work were you assigned that day? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I was assigned that day on the particular run from +11:52 until 2:27. + +Mr. BALL. What was your run? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Do you mean the name of the run? + +Mr. BALL. What course did you take, what part of Dallas did you drive +in. + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I went from---- + +Mr. BALL. Describe it generally, you don't need to go into any detail. + +Mr. McWATTERS. I would say from northeast Dallas in the Lakewood +addition of Dallas to the Oak Cliff addition of Dallas, which is, would +be southwest. + +Mr. BALL. Would that be northeast to southwest? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is right. + +Mr. BALL. There is a place near the downtown area of Dallas where you +timed your run, wasn't it? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I have after I get into town, when I get into +the downtown part of it, now St. Paul Street is my official time point +going in, where they have a supervisor that stays at this checkpoint +there, to check all incoming vehicles. + +Mr. BALL. You would be coming in from northeast Dallas at that time? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I am coming in from the Lakewood addition of +Dallas, which I came in on. The main thoroughfare is Gaston Avenue. + +Mr. BALL. And you got to the intersection of what street and St. Paul +when you were timed by your dispatcher? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is Elm, Elm Street. + +Mr. BALL. Elm and St. Paul? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Elm and St. Paul. + +Mr. BALL. If you are ahead of time do you stop there until you are +assigned a time to get in? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, sir; no sir; you don't--a man he has his watch and +schedule. If you are ahead of your schedule he will come out and stop +you, in other words, and ask you if your watch is right or what is it, +you know, the idea of you being there. There is no excuse, you know for +a man being ahead of his schedule. + +Mr. BALL. If you are ahead of your schedule does he stop you there +until you leave? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, that is right. + +Mr. BALL. What time are you due, according to your schedule, to leave +the corner of St. Paul and Elm? + +Mr. McWATTERS. 12:36. + +Mr. BALL. What time did you leave there that day? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I left there that day on time because coming into +town that day, I guess everybody done went to, down to, see the parade, +I didn't have over four or five passengers coming into downtown. + +Mr. BALL. Were you ahead of your schedule? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I stopped about a block before--now, just a block +before we get to St. Paul, there is a big theater there, and it has all +loading zones, no parking there and a lot of times if we are a minute +or two ahead of our schedule when we pull in in front of this theater +before we get there in time, in other words, we kill a minute. + +Mr. BALL. What did you do this day? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I was a little ahead of my schedule and I killed +about a minute, I guess, before I went to cross St. Paul Street. + +Mr. BALL. After your dispatcher checked you in what time did you leave +that corner of St. Paul and Elm? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the best I can remember I don't recall even +picking up a passenger there. I think I discharged one lady passenger +there on that, to the best I can recall, because I remember that I had, +when I crossed Field Street, I think I had five passengers on my bus. + +Mr. BALL. Well then, back to the question, what time did you leave that +day, leave Elm and St. Paul? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I would have to say I left there around, in other +words, 12:36 because I know I was on good time when I come in there. + +Mr. BALL. And you think you left at the time you were supposed to leave? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I am almost positive I did, because, as I say, we +generally come in on schedules on good time because from that street on +is where we generally--for the next seven or eight blocks--is where we +get all of our passengers going through the downtown area. + +Mr. BALL. Had you heard any sirens before you got to St. Paul and Elm? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know if your dispatcher keeps a written record? + +Mr. McWATTERS. The only way he keeps a written record is if you are +ahead of your schedule. He has a little pad, and if a man is ahead of +his schedule, in other words, he writes, of course, we all go by badge +numbers, in other words, he would write your badge number, your bus +number, and if you was ahead of schedule he would write how much ahead +of schedule you were, and---- + +Mr. BALL. Do you think he did anything, did he write anything up on you +on that day? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; the guy that we have down there now, if you are +ahead of schedule he will come out, in other words, because he stands +on the corner all the time, and if you are a minute or two ahead of +your schedule he will come out and if nothing else, converse with you +for a minute or two to see that you leave it on time and very seldom, I +mean, if ever--of course, a report goes in on you, it goes against your +record. + +Mr. BALL. In other words, if he did make a record it would be by way of +a reprimand to you? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. As you went on down Elm you left your post at St. Paul and +Elm, did you hear any sirens? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you pick up any passengers? + +Mr. McWATTERS. I picked up within a period of from the time I picked up +two or three passengers, I can't recall just exactly which stop. I have +after I leave St. Paul Street, I have Ervay Street and Akard Street, +and Field Street which would be three stops where I can't recall that, +exactly where I discharged or picked up passengers, because I had the +few passengers that I had which I came into town with. + +Mr. BALL. Well then, do you remember picking up a passenger at a place +other than at a bus stop as you went down Elm? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +As I left Field Street, I pulled out into the, in other words, the +first lane of traffic and traffic was beginning to back up then; in +other words, it was blocked further down the street, and after I pulled +out in it for a short distance there I come to a complete stop, and +when I did, someone come up and beat on the door of the bus, and that +is about even with Griffin Street. + +In other words, it is a street that dead ends into Elm Street which +there is no bus stop at this street, because I stopped across Field +Street in the middle of the intersection and it is just a short +distance onto Griffin Street, and that is when someone, a man, came up +and knocked on the door of the bus, and I opened the door of the bus +and he got on. + +Mr. BALL. You were beyond Field and before you got to Griffin? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is right. It was along about even with Griffin +Street before I was stopped in the traffic. + +Mr. BALL. And that is about seven or eight blocks from the Texas Book +Depository Building, isn't it? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. It would be seven, I would say that is seven, +it would be about seven blocks. + +Mr. BALL. From there? + +Mr. McWATTERS. From there, yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did the man look like who knocked on your door and got +on your bus? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I didn't pay any particular attention to him. He +was to me just dressed in what I would call work clothes, just some +type of little old jacket on, and I didn't pay any particular attention +to the man when he got on. + +Mr. BALL. Paid his fare, did he? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; he just paid his fare and sat down on the +second cross seat on the right. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not you gave him a transfer? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Not when he got on; no, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't. Did you ever give him a transfer? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I gave him one about two blocks from where he +got on. + +Mr. BALL. Did he ask you for a transfer? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember what he said to you when he asked you for the +transfer? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the reason I recall the incident, I had--there +was a lady that when I stopped in this traffic, there was a lady who +had a suitcase and she said, "I have got to make a 1 o'clock train at +Union Station," and she said, "I don't believe--from the looks of this +traffic you are going to be held up." + +She said, "Would you give me a transfer and I am going to walk on +down," which is about from where I was at that time about 7 or 8 blocks +to Union Station and she asked me if I would give her a transfer in +case I did get through the traffic if I would pick her up on the way. + +So, I said, "I sure will." So I gave her a transfer and opened the door +and as she was going out the gentleman I had picked up about 2 blocks +asked for a transfer and got off at the same place in the middle of +the block where the lady did. + +Mr. BALL. Where was that near, what intersection? + +Mr. McWATTERS. It was the intersection near Lamar Street, it was +near Poydras and Lamar Street. It is a short block, but the main +intersection there is Lamar Street. + +Mr. BALL. He had been on the bus about 2 blocks? + +Mr. McWATTERS. About 2 blocks; yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Up to that time had you heard any sirens? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Not up until--now just about the time that, let's see, +that is when I left Griffin, right about the time this gentleman got on +the bus the traffic was starting and that was about the first that I +can recall of hearing the sirens, but when, in other words, when they +started it seemed to me like they was coming from all over town. + +Mr. BALL. Did you have a radio in your bus? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you hear a radio from nearby cars announcing anything +about the President's assassination? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, there was cars that were stopped alongside of the +bus and I think someone raised the window but I couldn't hear. I never +did hear anything outside of the---- + +Mr. BALL. Where were you when you first heard the President had been +shot? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I was sitting in the bus, there was some gentleman +in front of me in a car, and he came back and walked up to the bus and +I opened the door and he said, "I have heard over my radio in my car +that the President has been--" I believe he used the word--"has been +shot." + +Mr. BALL. Is that when you were stalled in traffic? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is right. That is when I was stalled right there. + +Mr. BALL. Was that before or after the man got off the bus that asked +for the transfer? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That was before. In other words, at that time no one had +gotten off the bus. + +Mr. BALL. What was your location then, near what street? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Between Poydras and Lamar, in other words, because I +stayed stopped there for, I guess oh, 3 or 4 minutes anyway before I +made any progress at that one stop right there and that is where the +gentleman got off the bus. In fact, I was talking to the man, the man +that come out of the car; in other words, he just stepped up in the +door of the bus, and was telling me that what he had heard over his +radio and that is when the lady who was standing there decided she +would walk and when the other gentleman decided he would also get off +at that point. + +Mr. BALL. At that point. + +What course did you take after that? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I still was going west, in other words, in the +same direction, going west, in other words, towards Houston Street. In +other words, I went there before I changed my course which was about, I +would say, three or four blocks. + +When I got to Houston Street, in other words, I turned to the left, +which would be south---- + +Mr. BALL. You went by the Texas School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I turned at the corner of Elm Street and +Houston which this book store is on the opposite corner from where I +changed course there. + +Mr. BALL. Was traffic still heavy along there? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; the traffic was still tied up, but the police, +they opened up a lane there, they had so many buses and everything that +was tied up, they opened up, moved traffic around that they run quite a +few of these buses through there. + +In other words, from two blocks on this side of where the incident +happened they had, in other words, they was turning all the traffic to +the right and to the left, in other words, north and south. + +Mr. BALL. You went on down to Houston viaduct then? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, I turned after they finally let--they weren't +letting any cars through at that time but they just run a bunch of +those buses through there. + +Mr. BALL. Is there a bus stop in front of the Texas School Book +Depository Building? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL, Where do you stop for that intersection? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, you stop, in other words, on this side of the +street. + +Mr. BALL. You stop on the south side of, the southeast corner of the +intersection? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +In other words, like you would be going, direct south towards the +Building, the bus stop is on this corner over here on this side. + +Mr. BALL. You mean the corner of Houston and Elm? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is right. + +Mr. BALL. Which corner, north, south, east, west? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, it would be on the north. + +Mr. BALL. North. + +Mr. McWATTERS. On the north. + +Mr. BALL. Here is a map and maybe you can show us where the bus stop +is. This is Exhibit No. 371. + +Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, this is south, in other words. + +Mr. BALL. This is west. You are going west on Elm. + +Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, I am going--right here is where the +police had all traffic, they wasn't allowing anything to go any further +than Market Street here. + +In other words, all the traffic there they were moving was turning +either to the right or left, on Market Street. But after they held us +up there so long, of course, they run these buses in this right lane +here and they did open up and let a bunch of these buses go right on +down here to Houston, of course, a lot of them go straight on and a +lot of them turn left to Houston Street, a lot of them go under the +underpass here. + +Mr. BALL. Wait a minute, you turned to the left? + +Mr. McWATTERS. I turned to the left. + +Mr. BALL. On Houston? + +Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, my last stop, in other words at this +corner right here on Record Street, all buses turning to the left have +to stop at this corner right here. + +Mr. BALL. At Record and Elm? + +Mr. McWATTERS. At Record and Elm. + +Mr. BALL. Do you have a bus stop at Houston and Elm? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; there is a bus stop there for the buses that +go on under the underpass. + +Mr. BALL. Is there a bus stop for the buses that go south on Houston? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; all the buses, we have to get in, this is a +one-way street and you have to get over in this lane here. + +Mr. BALL. By the lane you mean the extreme left lane? + +Mr. McWATTERS. The extreme left lane to make---- + +Mr. BALL. To make the left turn south on Houston Street? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And your last bus stop, as you go west on Elm and before you +turn is the northeast corner of Record and Elm? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. BALL. You went on over to Houston Viaduct into the Oak Cliff +section, didn't you? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; to the Oak Cliff section. + +Mr. BALL. And there was some conversation occurred on that bus that you +told the FBI officers about? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Tell us what that was? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, there was a teenage boy, I would say 17 or 18 +years of age, who was sitting to my right on the first cross seat and +me and him had, we had conversationed a little while we was tied up +in the traffic, you know, of the fact of we wondered where all, what +all the excitement was due to the fact of the sirens and others, and +after I turned on Houston Street I said to him and I made the remark, +I wonder where the President was shot, and I believe he made the +remark that it was probably in the head if he was in a convertible +or something to that effect. I don't remember just exactly the way +we worded it or what it was, but it was a conversation about the +President, in other words, to where he was shot. + +In other words, and he made the remark or something, he was probably +shot in the head, if he was sitting in a convertible or to that effect. +I really don't know just exactly at that time. Just like I say I never +thought anything about it. + +Mr. BALL. Didn't some lady say something? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, yes, sir. + +Now, as we got on out on Marsalis, along about it was either Edgemont +or Vermont, I believe it was Vermont Street, there was a lady who was +fixing to cross the intersection and I stopped and asked her if she was +going to catch the bus into town from the opposite direction, and she +said that she was and I told her that we was off schedule, that the +other bus had done went into town, and I asked her did she care to just +ride on to the end of the line and come back and she wouldn't have to +stand there and wait, and she was getting on, and I asked her had she +heard the news of the President being shot, at the time that was all I +knew about it, and she said, "No, what are you--you are just kidding +me." + +I said, "No, I really am not kidding you." I said, "It is the truth +from all the reliable sources that we have come in contact with," and +this teenage boy sitting on the side, I said "Well, now, if you think +I am kidding you," I said, "Ask this gentleman sitting over here," and +he kind of, I don't know whether it was a grinning or smile or whatever +expression it was, and she said, "I know you are kidding now, because +he laughed or grinned or made some remark to that effect." + +And I just told her no it wasn't no kidding matter, but that was part +of the conversation that was said at that time. + +Mr. BALL. Was this teenage boy--do you know where this teenage boy got +on the bus? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; he got on at between, he got on at the stop, +in other words, I stopped in front of the Majestic theater which is a +block before I get to St. Paul; in other words, it is a middle of the +stop, block stop, in other words. We pull in and stop in the center of +the block, and my next stop would be St. Paul; in other words, that is +where the teenage boy got on. + +Mr. BALL. He was on the bus when this man knocked on the door of your +bus and got on? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; he was. + +Mr. BALL. He was on the bus when the man asked for the transfer and got +off? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. That is right. + +Mr. BALL. Were you later called down to the--did the teenage boy ask +for any transfer? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you were called down to the Dallas police department +later, weren't you? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What day was it? + +Mr. McWATTERS. It was on the same day, the 22d. + +Mr. BALL. 22d. Do you know how they happened to get in touch with you, +did you notify them that you---- + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; I didn't know anything to that effect. + +Mr. BALL. Did they come out and get you? + +Mr. McWATTERS. They come out and---- + +Mr. BALL. What did they ask you? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, they stopped me; it was, I would say around 6:15 +or somewhere around 6:15 or 6:20 that afternoon. + +Mr. BALL. You were still on duty, were you? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Still on your bus? + +Mr. McWATTERS. I was on duty but I was on a different line and a +different bus. + +Mr. BALL. What did they ask you when they came out? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, they stopped me right by the city hall there when +I come by there and they wanted me to come in, they wanted to ask me +some questions. And I don't know what it was about or anything until I +got in there and they told me what happened. + +Mr. BALL. What did they tell you? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, they told me that they had a transfer that I had +issued that was cut for Lamar Street at 1 o'clock, and they wanted to +know if I knew anything about it. And I, after I looked at the transfer +and my punch, I said yes, that is the transfer I issued because it had +my punch mark on it. + +Mr. BALL. Did your punch mark have a distinctive mark? + +Mr. McWATTERS. It had a distinctive mark and it is registered, in other +words, all the drivers, every driver has a different punch mark. + +Mr. BALL. What makes it different? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, it is, it would be, the symbol of it or angle, in +other words, every one; it is different, in other words. + +Mr. BALL. You have a punch there? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I have the punch right here. + +Mr. BALL. Is that the punch that you used? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is the punch I used. + +Mr. BALL. Will you punch a piece of paper and show us? + +Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, that is the type of punch that this one +makes right here, in other words. + +Mr. BALL. That is a different type of punch than any other driver has? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Any driver, in other words. + +Mr. BALL. On any bus in Dallas? + +Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, the superintendent has a list, in other +words, it would be just like this and every man has a punch and he has +his name, and everything. In other words, if anyone calls in about +a transfer or anything, I mean brings one in he can look right down +the list by the punch mark and tell whose punch it is, and who it is +registered to. + +Mr. BALL. Now, the sample of your punch there has been on a piece of +paper and we would like to have it marked as 372 at this time. + +(The paper referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 372 and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. BALL. If you punched, made a punch mark, on a transfer, did you +designate the time of the punch or the place of the punch? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I designate the time of the--we have one +general transfer point. In other words, Lamar Street is what we call +our general transfer point in which all transfers are cut within the +quarter of the hour in which you are supposed to be there. + +In other words, if you was to arrive there at, say, 12:50 or in that +vicinity, you always give the passenger the 15 minutes, in other words, +within the hour of the transfer. In other words, is the way they have +you to cut your transfers across your cutter. + +In other words, it is just a little thing that you raise up and down +and you can adjust them, and right here is a book of them in which you +can see the time. It is one, in other words, 2:15, 3:30, and 4:45, and +we set them in other words, if you wanted at 1:15, 1 o'clock would be +across this direction. If you wanted it 1:15 you would cut across this +direction or if you wanted it 1:45 you would cut it in this direction. +In other words, 1:15, -:30 and -:45. In other words, the 15 minutes is +always given at the time, at the general transfer point. + +Representative FORD. It is 10:25 now. How would you cut it right now? + +Mr. McWATTERS. At 10:25. + +Representative FORD. Why don't you cut one? + +Mr. McWATTERS. I have a regular cutter, you see; let's see if he can +get something that would--in other words, 10:25, I will just cut it, in +other words, cut across there, and cut it, in other words, at 10:30, +in other words, it would show at 10:30. + +(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.) + +Representative FORD. Where do you put your own identification? + +Mr. McWATTERS. On here. Well, if it is in the morning or in the +afternoon, here is your a.m., or your p.m. In other words, it is before +12:45, in other words, we consider up to 12:45 a.m., in other words, +that is the way they are. + +In other words, I would punch it in the a.m. side of it, and if it +was in the afternoon, in other words, after that, it would be a p.m. +transfer, and whatever line that you are working has the name on it +right here. + +In other words, at that time that transfer I had punched was punched a +p.m. Lakewood, in other words, because I was coming from the Lakewood +addition is the way that was punched on the transfer. + +Mr. BALL. Well now, do you punch the transfer when the passenger asks +for it? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No. No, sir; in other words, when you leave this, you +are inbound when you are going into town or when you are going, in +other words, out of town, in other words. + +I was coming in, in other words, when I got in Lakewood Addition I set +my transfers for downtown. + +Mr. BALL. For downtown and you set them for what time? + +Mr. McWATTERS. I set them for 1 o'clock. + +Mr. BALL. You set them for 1 o'clock? + +Mr. McWATTERS. 1 o'clock. + +Mr. BALL. When you reached your end of the run in northeast Dallas then +you set your transfers for 1 o'clock, did you? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, when I was coming back in. + +Mr. BALL. And when you gave this transfer near Poydras and Elm---- + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you pull out a transfer that had already been set for 1 +o'clock time? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. In other words, I just reached up on my cutter +and just tore off one which is already punched. + +Mr. BALL. Then did you punch it again or was it already punched? + +Mr. McWATTERS. It was already punched. + +Mr. BALL. And you had punched it at the end of the line? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. So all you had to do is pull the transfer off of the pile of +transfers and hand it to the man? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct. + +Mr. BALL. And you had anticipated at the end of the line that when +you got to about this point it would be a 1 o'clock transfer, is that +correct? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, that is right. + +In other words, there is enough time on it, just like I say, within a +quarter of an hour, but---- + +Mr. BALL. When you got to the police station that day did they show you +a transfer? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What did you tell them about the transfer? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I recognized the transfer as being the transfer +that I had issued. + +Mr. BALL. How did you recognize it? + +Mr. McWATTERS. By my punch mark on it. + +Mr. BALL. And what about the line? + +Mr. McWATTERS. The line? + +Mr. BALL. Lakewood. + +Mr. McWATTERS. The Lakewood punch on it, and where it was punched and +Lakewood with my punch mark on it. + +Mr. BALL. Were you able to identify it any further as a particular +transfer you had given to any particular passenger? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. Only---- + +Mr. BALL. Go ahead. + +Mr. McWATTERS. I only gave two transfers going through town on that +trip and that was at the one stop of where I gave the lady and the +gentleman that got off the bus, I issued two transfers. But that was +the only two transfers that were issued. + +Mr. BALL. Did you tell the police in Dallas that? + +Mr. McWATTERS. I don't remember whether I did or not. + +Mr. BALL. But you do remember it now? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. + +(At this point Chief Justice Warren left the hearing room.) + +Mr. BALL. All right. Now, what else did you do that day? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, let's see---- + +Mr. BALL. Did they show you any prisoner? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; when they stopped me over there and took me +into the police department there, like I say, it was around 6:15 or +6:20, they took me down before the lineup there and asked me if I could +identify anyone in that lineup as getting on my bus that day. + +Mr. BALL. Did they take you down and show you a lineup? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You sat there with police officers and they brought men in +there? + +Mr. McWATTERS. They brought four men out. In other words, four men +under the lights; in other words, they was all---- + +Mr. BALL. All the same age? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; they were different ages, different sizes and +different heights. And they asked me if I could identify any man in +particular there, and I told them that I couldn't identify any man in +particular, but there was one man there that was about the size of the +man. Now, I was referring back, after they done showed me this transfer +at that time and I knew which trip, that I went through town on at that +time, in other words, on the Lakewood trip and just like I recalled, +I only put out two transfers and I told them that there was one man +in the lineup was about the size and the height and complexion of a +man that got on my bus, but as far as positively identifying the man I +could not do it. + +Mr. BALL. What was the size and the height and complexion of the man +that knocked on the window of this bus? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I would say, just like I told the police, to me he +was just a medium-sized man. To me he was, I would say, not, I wouldn't +call him--just of average weight, and I would say a light-complected, +to the best of my knowledge. + +Mr. BALL. When you say "average weight" what do you mean? + +Mr. McWATTERS. I figured just like I saw, the man, he looked like to me +the best way I can describe him would be 135 or 140 pounds. + +Mr. BALL. What about height? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, just like I told them, it looked like to me he +would probably be five-seven or five-eight, in that vicinity. + +Mr. BALL. Anyway, you were not able to identify any man in the lineup +as the passenger? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. As the passenger who had gotten on? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You said there was one man who closely resembled in height, +weight and color? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is right. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know who that was? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Just like I told them, I didn't know who was who or +anything. + +Mr. BALL. Did you ever learn who that person was? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I don't know whether that was really the man or +not, I don't know. + +Mr. BALL. I see. + +Now, I have a map here. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +Representative FORD. All right, proceed. + +Mr. BALL. You remember you told us about the man that knocked on the +window of the door of your bus just before you got to Griffin, wasn't +it? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; along about the vicinity of Griffin Street, it +comes to. + +Mr. BALL. You let him on the bus, and he paid his fare, how much is +that fare? + +Mr. McWATTERS. It is 23 cents. + +Mr. BALL. 23 cents, and you went about down almost to Poydras. + +Mr. McWATTERS. Almost, between Poydras and Lamar. + +Mr. BALL. Between Poydras and Lamar, closer to Lamar than to Poydras? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. And a man got on. Was it the same man? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That was the same man who got on the bus that I picked +up, in other words. + +Mr. BALL. And the man you gave the transfer to? + +Mr. McWATTERS. The man I gave the transfer to when the woman--in other +words, when the man that got on Griffin Street there got off at the +same place she did. + +Mr. BALL. And he was only on the bus about 2 blocks? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Two blocks was the only distance. + +Mr. BALL. How long did it take you to go those 2 blocks? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Now, he paid as far as from St. Paul Street. I +made--there wasn't any traffic holding me up whatsoever, I come on +right down to where I picked the man up there, in other words, about +Field, and that is where the traffic was starting to back up to. So +the best of my knowledge I would say it took me 3 or 4 minutes to get +down there, so I will just have to say it was in the vicinity of around +12:40. + +Mr. BALL. In other words, how long was the man on your bus, the man +who got on, about Griffin and got off and you gave him the transfer, +approximately? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, he got on, and when he got on, I made that one +block, and then the other, well, I would be safe in saying he wasn't on +there 5 minutes. + +Mr. BALL. And you think he got off or on around 12:40? + +Mr. McWATTERS. 12:40 that is the best. + +Mr. BALL. What time did you say he got on approximately? + +Mr. McWATTERS. On the bus? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I would say in the vicinity from where I left +up there it would be probably it took me, I would say, 3 minutes to +come, let's see, it would be Ervay, Akard and Field, that is about 3 +blocks there where I left my time point which I would say just a rough +estimation it would be with no traffic would be 2 or 3 minutes, I would +say 3 minutes anyway. + +So, it must have been somewheres 12:39 or--so. + +Mr. BALL. When he got on the bus? + +Mr. McWATTERS. 12:40. + +Mr. BALL. And then he was on the bus about how many minutes? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, just like I say he wasn't on the bus over 4 or 5 +minutes, in other words, just made that 1 block there, and in other +words, when the traffic stopped, well, that is when he got off the bus. + +Representative FORD. During the time he was on the bus this man rapped +at your door or was your door open, and spoke up and said that the +President had been shot? + +Mr. McWATTERS. He was on the bus, you mean was the door open? + +Representative FORD. No. You previously testified that while you were +stalled or jammed up in the traffic---- + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. A man came to the door of the bus and indicated by +word of mouth---- + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. That the President had been shot. + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. Now, was the man to whom you issued the transfer +on the bus at that time? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. Now, the man who spoke up and said that the +President had been shot, how loudly did he say that? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, he said it loud enough that I guess everybody on +the bus heard him when he stepped up in the bus. + +Representative FORD. In other words, that would be your best impression +or best recollection that whoever said this, that the President had +been shot, said it loudly enough for not only you but the other bus +passengers to hear it? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. Because he stepped up in the bus and when he +made the statement in other words, he said that the President had been +shot, because I am pretty sure everybody--he said it to the fact. I +think that everybody, there might have been some, if there was anybody +in the extreme back of the bus, might not have heard it, but I think +anyone who was near the front part of the bus could have. + +Representative FORD. But at that time when this man made this +statement, there was a teenager sitting in the first cross seat on the +right-hand side of the bus? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. And the man who had gotten on the bus to whom you +later issued the transfer, was sitting in the second? + +Mr. McWATTERS. In the second seat. + +Representative FORD. What is the distance from the door of the bus +where the man was standing who made this statement to the second cross +seat? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I would say, let's see, it would be I would say 6 +or 8 feet. + +Representative FORD. Was he sitting alone in the second cross seat? + +Mr. McWATTERS. He was sitting alone. + +Representative FORD. Did you notice any reaction on the part of any of +your passengers to this comment by this man who made this statement? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the only reaction that I knew is when he got up +and said that, well, that is when the lady got off first, which she +jumped up and got her suitcase and said, in other words, made a remark +to something. "I am afraid you are going to be tied up here in this +traffic and I want to get off." + +Representative FORD. Where was this lady sitting who got up and asked +for this transfer? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Now, this lady was sitting behind me, in other words, I +am the driver. + +Representative FORD. On the left-hand side of the bus looking forward? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; in other words, it is a cross seat. I mean a +side seat, in other words, like the driver sitting here, the first seat +is the one that runs parallel with the bus, in other words. + +Representative FORD. Well now, the seat in which the lady was sitting +would be parallel to the second cross seat on the other side of the bus? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, in other words---- + +Representative FORD. It would be on the same line? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. The first seat would be ahead--the first seat on +the right-hand side of the bus would be ahead of the seat where the +lady was sitting? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, you mean the lady, I am referring to who got off +first? + +Representative FORD. Yes. + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, the lady--I was sitting in the driver's seat, she +was sitting right behind me, in other words, facing out his way. + +Representative FORD. But she obviously heard what the man said about +the President being shot? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. There is no doubt in your mind she heard that? + +Mr. McWATTERS. I wouldn't think so because when she got up and stated +she wanted to get off---- + +Representative FORD. Was she any further from the man who made this +statement about the President being shot than the man who was sitting +in the second cross seat? + +Mr. McWATTERS. She was closer to the man actually than the man that got +off with her was. + +Representative FORD. How many feet or how much difference? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the lady in other words, from the door here, it +is just two cross seats, and two seats where you sit sideways and then +the two seats in which he would be back here. + +Representative FORD. Could you diagram that as best as you can? + +Mr. BELIN. Congressman, we have a diagram. We have a picture of the +side of the bus. + +Mr. McWATTERS. Right here. + +Representative FORD. Sit down. + +Mr. McWATTERS. You can see it from this point right here, in other +words. You see this cross seat, in other words, these first two right +here, the driver's seat, you see the first two seats there, in other +words. + +Representative FORD. Could you sit down and mark it? + +Mr. McWATTERS. This is the inside, let's see, this is the driver right +here. Here is your cross seat right here. Here, about back here, is +where the lady got off who was sitting on this seat. + +Representative FORD. Will you mark that with an "L"? + +Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, right here. + +Representative FORD. Where was the man in the first cross seat sitting? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Right here is the first. Right here is where the man +that was sitting, got off, in this seat right here, I believe it is. + +Representative FORD. Will you mark that "M" where the man who was +sitting also got off who got the transfer? + +Mr. BALL. Maybe we had better use a black pen that will show better on +that glazed surface. + +Representative FORD. This is where the man was sitting who you issued +the transfer to at the same time the lady was issued the transfer? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. And the teenager was sitting in what seat? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Right here. + +Representative FORD. Will you mark that "O"? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. Where was the man standing who came to the bus and +said the President had been shot? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Right here. + +Representative FORD. On the step? + +Mr. McWATTERS. On the step. I guess, I presume this would be the second +step there. To the best of my recollection he stepped up on the first +step. + +Representative FORD. Mark that "P." + +Mr. McWATTERS. "P." + +Representative FORD. Now, after the man who was standing at "P" said +the President was shot, what did the lady do who was sitting in "L"? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the lady, she had a suitcase sitting right there +beside me and she left. When the lady got up and said she would like to +get off the bus, and that she was going to walk to the Union Station +and asked me if I would give her a transfer in case that I caught up +with her, and asked me if I would pick her up. + +Representative FORD. You gave her a transfer? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. What happened? + +Mr. McWATTERS. She got off and by the time when she was talking to me +that is when he got up, this gentleman here in the seat got up, at seat +"M" got off. In other words, the door was never closed of the bus from +the time the gentleman stepped up in the door of that there, in other +words, when he said what he did, and got on back in his car, in other +words, the lady got off, and the man got off, too, both at the same +stop. + +In other words, the bus hadn't moved at that stop. + +Mr. BALL. I would like to mark this as the next exhibit, Commission's +exhibit, which will be the diagram of the bus with the initials "M," +"O," "L," "P," will be marked as Commission's Exhibit 373. + +Representative FORD. It will be so admitted. + +(The diagram referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 373 for +identification and received in evidence.) + +Mr. BALL. And a photograph of the interior of the bus, I would like to +have marked as 374. + +And a diagram of the bus itself showing front and side as 375. + +(The photograph and diagram referred to were marked Commission Exhibits +Nos. 374 and 375, respectively, and received in evidence.) + +Mr. BALL. I will hand you a photograph of the exterior of the bus. + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; in other words, that is the same bus number. + +Mr. BALL. That is right. + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is the bus it was. + +Mr. BALL. That is the bus. Number---- + +Mr. McWATTERS. 433. + +Representative FORD. So admitted. + +Mr. BALL. These are all admitted. + +Now, we have this map which is Commission's Exhibit 371. Can you show +me your starting point which is where you started your time on Elm and +what street? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is Elm and St. Paul. + +Mr. BALL. Will you mark an "X" there with your black pen, or let's take +red pen this time for you, on this same map, here it is right there, +that is where you commenced your time, is that right? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Put an "O" there. + +Mr. McWATTERS. Put an "O" here. + +Mr. BALL. Just circle that intersection. + +Mr. McWATTERS. O.K. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you went along Elm, westerly along Elm? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is right---- + +Mr. BALL. Put a "P" about the place where the man knocked on the window +of your door of your bus and got on. Here is Griffin. + +Mr. McWATTERS. This is Griffin right here, mark that with a "P". + +Mr. BALL. And put an "R" at the place where the man got off the bus. + +Mr. McWATTERS. Let's see. + +Mr. BALL. Here is Lamar. + +Mr. McWATTERS. Here is Lamar here. I want to find Poydras. + +Mr. BALL. That is right in here. + +Mr. McWATTERS. That would be, in other words, about the center here +would be, in other words, a little bit closer to Lamar than---- + +Mr. BALL. Put an "R" there to indicate the approximate position where +he got off. + +"O" is where you started, so you had better raise those up to Elm. The +place he got on and the place he got off. + +Perhaps, if you would just draw a line up and put your "R" it would be +easier. + +Mr. McWATTERS. On Griffin here now that is where you want---- + +Mr. BALL. Where he got on, wherever it was. + +Mr. McWATTERS. Is that where you want the "P"? + +Mr. BALL. That is where he got on? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. O.K. right here. + +Mr. BALL. And where he got off "R". + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is a very short block right in between Poydras and +Lamar here. + +Mr. BALL. All right. + +Now, let's use the map here. You made your start at St. Paul and Elm +didn't you, and went west. + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Now, you picked up a man who knocked on the window of your +bus at a place in the street that was not a bus stop, is that right? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct. + +Mr. BALL. And its approximate location was where? + +Mr. McWATTERS. At Griffin Street. + +Mr. BALL. And you have marked that as "P"? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Marked that as "P". + +Mr. BALL. That same man stayed on your bus until you got to what +location + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the location was between Poydras and Lamar Street. + +In other words, I would say closer to Lamar than to Poydras. + +Mr. BALL. At that point he got off the bus? + +Mr. McWATTERS. He got off the bus. + +Mr. BALL. And you gave him a transfer? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. And you have marked that "R", is that correct? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, yes. + +Mr. BALL. There is another map I would like to show you that hasn't +been marked yet as a Commission Exhibit, and I will have that marked as +376, a map of Dallas. + +You have already marked on this map, haven't you, or it has been marked +in advance then by someone. + +(The map referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 376 and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Now, take a look at this map and tell me if that map, the +blue line on the map, indicates your route on that day, where you +started in northeast Dallas? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, that is the original starting line there. + +Mr. BALL. What is the street? + +Mr. McWATTERS. I believe--I can't even see that small print on that. +That is Ellsworth and Anita, that is where it is coming back there. + +Mr. BALL. Ellsworth and Anita, and then you proceeded downtown along +that course, did you? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. This is Lakewood shopping center. + +Mr. BALL. Do you have an alternative route through there? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, in other words, that is where the main thoroughfare +starts right there at Gaston Avenue. Gaston right here which is the +main street when you leave this shopping center. + +Mr. BALL. You went down Gaston to Pacific? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Went down Gaston to, let's see this is Hawkins Street +right here. + +Mr. BALL. Then you went left on Hawkins to Elm? + +Mr. McWATTERS. To Elm Street, yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Then you went on Elm. + +Mr. McWATTERS. Went from Elm to, this would be Houston Street. + +Mr. BALL. Turned on Houston Street viaduct? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Left on Houston Street. + +Mr. BALL. To Marsalis? + +Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, this is the Houston Street viaduct and +this is Marsalis where you turn and come off Houston Street viaduct. + +Mr. BALL. Then you go south how far? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Go south all the way to, let's see, it is Ann Arbor. +This is all Marsalis right here. + +Mr. BALL. A straight run south? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Straight run. + +Mr. BALL. Then you make a turn and go back? + +Mr. McWATTERS. I make a turn, in other words, on Ann Arbor and in other +words, just circle, make a loop, just circle right around this little +shopping center here. + +Mr. BALL. And go back. + +Mr. McWATTERS. And right back down Marsalis. + +Mr. BALL. Marsalis is how far from Beckley? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Marsalis is, let's see---- + +Mr. BALL. This is Beckley here? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You can count the streets there, can you? + +Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, it would be seven blocks. + +Mr. BALL. Seven blocks, Beckley is seven blocks west of Marsalis, is +that correct? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Your bus line doesn't run down Beckley? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. It doesn't run seven blocks, close to Beckley? Have you seen +this? Here is Beckley and here is Marsalis, the bus line. + +Is there a bus route on Beckley? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; there is. + +Mr. BALL. Can you get a bus that goes down Beckley some place around +Houston and Elm? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; the bus comes, the Beckley bus comes in on +St. Paul and Elm, in other words, at the time that I was, before we +started, in other words, that is where the Beckley bus enters Elm +Street there and then he goes the same route through town. + +Mr. BALL. Same route you go down to the Houston viaduct? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. In other words, after the Book Depository down +there, he goes straight on. + +Mr. BALL. Let me ask you this: The Beckley bus, the bus that will take +you south on Beckley, has a starting point the same place as yours at +St. Paul and Elm? + +Mr. McWATTERS. St. Paul, in other words, the time element is the same. +In other words, he comes in there. + +Mr. BALL. Then that Beckley bus goes west on Elm the same as your bus? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. But instead of turning south on the Houston Street viaduct +the Beckley bus goes straight west on Elm, doesn't it? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct. + +Mr. BALL. Can you show us the bus stop for the Beckley bus on this +Commission Exhibit No. 361? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, yes; his last bus stop would be right here at the +corner of---- + +Mr. BALL. Let's put a mark on this. Here is a red pencil, and put a +mark on this in red and show us the place where the Beckley bus would +stop. + +Mr. McWATTERS. It would stop--in other words, we consider this corner +of this intersection right here, any letter or what. + +Mr. BALL. Just put a rectangular mark about the size of a bus +indicating bus stop--take black ink and indicating a place where the +bus would stop. + +Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, the bus would stop along in this place +right here. + +Mr. BALL. All right, now that is bus stop for Beckley bus. + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is bus stop for Beckley bus. + +Mr. BALL. Northeast corner Houston and Elm. + +Mr. McWATTERS. Northeast corner of Houston and Elm. + +Mr. BALL. The Beckley bus goes on across directly in front of the Texas +School Book Depository Building? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct. + +Mr. BALL. As your bus gets into another lane of traffic and does not +stop at Houston and Elm and makes a turn south on Houston. + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Then the Beckley bus stop, the stop of the Beckley bus, which +is in black ink on the northeast corner of Houston and Elm, we will +mark that with a big "B" which stands for Beckley bus. + +Representative FORD. How long have you been on this run that you had +the day of November 22? + +Mr. McWATTERS. I worked this run for, I would say, this is the second +year. This makes 2 years that I worked this. + +Representative FORD. Two years consecutively? + +Mr. McWATTERS. 2 years consecutively that I have been on this run and +worked it. + +Representative FORD. So you would be familiar with the route? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; just like I say, I worked it, this is the +second year that I have worked the same, in other words, the same +hours, and the same route. + +Representative FORD. How many hours a day do you work this route? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, now, this one particular route right here, I work +it only 2 hours and 35 minutes. + +Representative FORD. Each day? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Each day. + +Representative FORD. How many days a week? + +Mr. McWATTERS. 5 days, Monday through Friday. And after that, in other +words, I work on another, a different bus line. + +But this one particular one here is just 2 hours and 35 minutes each +day. + +Representative FORD. When you say a different bus line, you mean the +same company but a different route? + +Mr. McWATTERS. A different route. + +Representative FORD. You would be familiar with the time schedules and +all of the stops on this particular route from your 2 years' experience? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. May I ask a question? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Have you testified that you saw this passenger whom +you later recognized in the lineup, get on the bus in the vicinity of +Murphy Street--is Murphy Street on your right? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Murphy Street is the street that, in other words, that +comes in. + +Senator COOPER. Does it run into Elm Street? + +Mr. McWATTERS. It runs into Elm Street, it dead ends, in other words, +into Elm Street. + +Here is Field Street, in other words, across this intersection and we +stopped across the intersection of Field, and Murphy Street comes in to +the intersection at about where the bus stops, in other words, where +Field Street stops and I guess that Griffin is the next small street +that comes in just, it is just a short distance below. + +Senator COOPER. Well, did the passenger that you have testified about, +and whom you stated that you later identified, did he get on in the +vicinity of Murphy Street? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Murphy Street--you proceeded from Murphy Street toward +the Texas School Book Depository? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Is that correct? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct. + +Senator COOPER. Was the passenger that got on near Murphy Street the +same passenger that you later have testified about who told you that +the President had been shot in the temple? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, they told me later that it was, but at the time +they didn't tell me. + +Senator COOPER. Who didn't tell you? + +Mr. McWATTERS. The police didn't. + +Senator COOPER. When you say this passenger got on near Murphy Street, +was there anything about him that caused you to take notice of him +particularly? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, no, sir. I wouldn't say there was. He was, I would +say, he didn't have on no suit or anything, he had on, I believe, some +type of jacket, cloth jacket. + +Senator COOPER. What caused you to remember him getting on? + +Mr. McWATTERS. What caused me to remember? + +Senator COOPER. Yes; at the time he got on. + +Mr. McWATTERS. Because, the reason I remembered exactly because I +didn't put out but two transfers, and that, in other words, from where +he got on and everything, I didn't have but one, there wasn't but one +man on the bus and that was the teenage boy, when he got on the bus, in +other words, when he got off, he was the only man except the teenage +boy who was on the bus at the time. + +Senator COOPER. Now was this man that you saw got on the bus the same +one who told you that the President had been shot in the temple? + +Mr. McWATTERS. The man who got on the bus now? + +Senator COOPER. Yes. The man to whom you have just referred as getting +on the bus near Murphy Street. + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. + +Senator COOPER. Is he the same man who told you that the President had +been shot in the temple? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Who told you that? + +Mr. McWATTERS. A man in an automobile in front of me, in other words, +that was sitting in a car come back and told me. + +Senator COOPER. Told you what? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That the President had been shot, that he had heard over +his radio in his car that the President had been shot. + +Senator COOPER. I think you have testified that someone, some passenger +on the bus, in response to a question that you had asked, "I wonder +where they shot the President" said, "They shot him in the temple." + +Mr. McWATTERS. Oh, that was now, that was after we had done, that is +when I turned on Houston Street, the conversation with the teenage boy. + +Senator COOPER. It was the teenage boy who told you that? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; it was the teenage boy, sitting on his right +side of the side seat there, the one that I conversationed with about +the President being shot in the head or the temple, I don't remember, +but the teenage boy was the one. + +That was after the man that already got off that had boarded my bus up +around Griffin there. + +Senator COOPER. Then the one who told you the President had been shot +in the temple was not the one you later identified in the police lineup? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. + +Senator COOPER. This probably has been testified to, but where did the +man that you later identified in the police lineup get off the bus? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Got off between Poydras and Lamar Street. + +Senator COOPER. Was that after you crossed over the viaduct or before? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; that was before I crossed over. + +Senator COOPER. When did the teenage boy get off the bus? + +Mr. McWATTERS. He got off at Oak Cliff, I believe. He got off at +Marsalis and Brownley. + +Senator COOPER. Was that after the bus had crossed the viaduct? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is after the bus had---- + +Senator COOPER. Past the Texas Depository? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is about 3 or 4 miles out in the Oak +Cliff section where the teenage boy got off of the bus. + +Senator COOPER. From the time the man got on the bus, which you later +identified in the police lineup until he got off, had you noticed him, +had you looked at him again? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Had I looked at him again? + +Senator COOPER. Yes. + +Mr. McWATTERS. Not until just like I say he was sitting--I was talking +to this teenage boy and he was sitting right behind this boy, but I +didn't pay him any particular attention, to the man. + +Senator COOPER. You saw him get on the bus? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. + +Senator COOPER. Did you see him get off? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes; I gave him a transfer when he got off the bus, +the same place that was, the same place I was stopped where the man +come back and stepped up in the bus and told me what he had heard over +his radio in his car, the same place that the lady got off, with a +suitcase, is the place that the man got off. + +Senator COOPER. The man you later identified in the police lineup? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct; yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Did you pay any particular attention to him when he got +off? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Not no more than I did than, I think, when he got on. + +Senator COOPER. Do you remember anything about his clothes or his +general appearance in any way? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Just like I say, I remember he had on, to me he had on +just work clothes, he didn't have on a suit of clothes, and some type +of jacket. I would say a cloth jacket. + +Senator COOPER. I believe that is all. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't--as I understand it, when you were at the police +lineup, you told us that you didn't--weren't able to identify this man +in the lineup as the man who got off, that you gave the transfer to. + +Mr. McWATTERS. I told them to the best of my knowledge, I said the man +that I picked out was the same height, about the same height, weight +and description. But as far as actually saying that is the man I +couldn't---- + +Mr. BALL. You couldn't do it? + +Mr. McWATTERS. I wouldn't do it and I wouldn't do it now. + +Mr. BALL. You signed an affidavit for the Dallas Police Department, do +you remember that? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I will show you a copy of it, we can get the original if you +want, but there is a copy of it, a picture taken of it. + +Will you read it, please? + +(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.) + +Mr. BALL. This document, I would like to have marked as 377, at this +time, Commission Exhibit, with the understanding that we may substitute +the photostat for the original. + +Senator COOPER. Very well; let it be substituted. It has been +identified, and will be identified. + +Mr. BALL. Yes, it will be; I will identify it for the record as a +photostat of an affidavit of Cecil J. McWatters made before Patsy +Collins, Notary Public of Dallas County, Tex., November 22, 1963. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 377, and +received in evidence.) + +Mr. BALL. Now, having read that, first of all, does that look like your +signature, Mr. McWatters? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; it does. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember the circumstances under which you made that +affidavit? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I just told them the best I could remember. + +Mr. BALL. I am showing this to you for the purpose of refreshing your +memory. + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, I know. + +Mr. BALL. I know it has been several months. + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, I know what you mean. + +Mr. BALL. And sometimes when you see something that you signed before +it refreshes your memory. + +Mr. McWATTERS. It sure does. + +Yes, that is what you mean, I know what you mean, I said that looked +like the man I saw. + +Mr. BALL. In this affidavit, it says, it mentions the fact that when +you went to Marsalis and picked up a woman. + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. You asked her if she knew the President had been shot, you +told us about that a few moments ago. + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. She thought you were kidding, and you told her, "I told her +if she didn't believe me to ask the man behind her, that he had told me +the President was shot in the temple." + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Was the man, was that the teenager? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, sir, that was the teenage boy. In other +words, he was, I would say, around 17 or 18 years old. + +Mr. BALL. You said here, "The man didn't say anything but he was +grinning." + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Do you think that happened? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, when the lady asked him, he just kind of grinned, +in other words, and she said, "This is not a grinning or laughing +matter," or something to that effect I don't remember just exactly what +she did say. + +Mr. BALL. Now you told them at that time you didn't know where you let +this man off. + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, I didn't at that time, I didn't know +where he got off. + +Mr. BALL. You told us a few moments ago you thought he got off another +place. + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, sir. + +Mr. BALL. What was that place? + +Mr. McWATTERS. He got off at Brownley, because the man rode with me the +next day. + +Mr. BALL. You went out there the next day, did you? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. With an FBI man or a Dallas policeman? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, I mean---- + +Mr. BALL. The same teenager? + +Mr. McWATTERS. The same teenager rode with me the next day. + +Mr. BALL. And you noticed he got off there? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, and I noticed, and I asked him, like I told him, I +said that I was--I thought that, you know, that he was, when he first +got on down there, I says, "From all indications, we had you kind of +pinpointed as the man who might have been mixed up in the assassination +and everything." And---- + +Mr. BALL. Do I understand the day after you made the affidavit, this +would be the 23d of November? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. That this same teenager got on your bus again? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, he got on. + +Mr. BALL. And you noticed where you let him off? + +Mr. McWATTERS. I noticed where I let him off, yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Is that the reason that today you remember he got off? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is it today I remember, just like I say, I remember +I talked to him the next day, and he told me where he got on, and he +told me where he got on, and where he got off and where he lived, and, +you know that---- + +Mr. BALL. Has he been on your bus since? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. He has? + +Mr. McWATTERS. He has rode with me since. + +Mr. BALL. Yes. I see. + +Did you give him a transfer that day? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, because he gets on and he lives within about two +blocks of the busline, in other words, where he gets off. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know this boy's name? + +Mr. McWATTERS. I believe his name is Milton Jones. + +Mr. BALL. Milton Jones? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Milton Jones. I don't believe I know where he lives, but +I pass where he lives. But he told me his name was Milton Jones and he +told me he was 17. + +Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you where he works? + +Mr. McWATTERS. He told me that, I believe, he goes to school half a +day, believe he said and I believe he goes home and he has a part-time +job, but he never did state where he works. + +Mr. BALL. Did he tell you where he went to school? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; he never did tell me where he went to school. + +Mr. BALL. Or where he worked? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Where he worked, either one. + +Mr. BALL. You notice in the affidavit there it says, "This +man"--referring to the man who was grinning---- + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. "This man looks like the No. 1 man I saw in the lineup +today." + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Who was the No. 2 man you saw in the lineup on November 22, +1963? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, just like I say, he was the shortest man in the +lineup, in other words, when they brought these men out there, in other +words, he was about the shortest, and the lightest weight one, I guess, +was the reason I say that he looked like the man, because the rest of +them were larger men than---- + +Mr. BALL. Well, now, at that time, when you saw the lineup---- + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Were you under the impression that this man that you saw in +the lineup and whom you pointed out to the police, was the teenage boy +who had been grinning? + +Mr. McWATTERS. I was, yes, sir; I was under the impression---- + +Mr. BALL. That was the fellow? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That was the fellow. + +Mr. BALL. You were not under the impression then that night when you +saw the lineup that the No. 2 man in the lineup was the man who got off +the bus, to whom you had given a transfer? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is what I say. In other words, when I told them, +I said, the only way is the man, that he is smaller, in other words, +he kind of had a thin like face and he weighs less than any one of +them. The only one I could identify at all would be the smaller man on +account he was the only one who could come near fitting the description. + +Mr. BALL. Let me ask you this, though. Did you tell them the man, the +smaller man, you saw in the lineup, did you tell them that you thought +he was the man who got off your bus and got the transfer or the man who +was on the bus who was the teenager who was grinning? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I really thought he was the man who was on the bus. + +Mr. BALL. That stayed on the bus? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That stayed on the bus. + +Mr. BALL. And you didn't think he was the man who got off the bus and +to whom you gave a transfer? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. At that time you didn't? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is why I say I pinpointed that transfer on that boy +as far as that is concerned. But at first, just like I say, I really +thought from the height and weight of the two men, I mean was just +like I say, was both of them were small. In the lineup they had, in +other words, bigger men, in other words, he was the smallest man at the +lineup. + +Mr. BALL. We have got--we have this diagram that you have already drawn +of the bus which has several initials on it. Could you tell me where on +the bus this lady sat who told the teenager it was no grinning matter? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, now, that is, in other words, I don't think at +that time--now this teenager was still on the bus near, but I had a +couple of more passengers on there, I believe I had two women on there, +but I can't recall just, when I picked her up where she sat down on the +bus. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember you said to the woman, "Look at that man +behind you?" + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, she was standing up here at the fare, paying fare. + +Mr. BALL. And the teenager was where? + +Mr. McWATTERS. He was sitting right here. + +Mr. BALL. At the place "O", is that right? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, at the place "O". + +Mr. BALL. I see. + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is where the conversation was going on. + +Mr. BALL. Mr. McWatters, that affidavit you have there, will you look +at another item you have there? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. "Today, November 22, 1963, about 12:40 p.m., I was driving +Marsalis Bus No. 1213." + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is right. + +Mr. BALL. First of all, you have referred to that as another bus, +Munger Bus, is that the same bus? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; in other words, that number there is my run +number right here on my card. + +Mr. BALL. I understand that, but do you call that run the Marsalis run +as well as the Munger run? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. Well, here you can--let me show you here on +this schedule right here, Marsalis, Ramona, Elwood and Munger. + +Mr. BALL. Can we take this and have a Xerox---- + +Mr. McWATTERS. You can just take the whole thing. + +Mr. BALL. All right. We will have a Xerox of this and mark it 378, a +Xerox copy. + +Will you identify that document and tell me what it is? + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 378, for +identification.) + +Mr. McWATTERS. This is a schedule, I will just say a bus schedule. + +Mr. BALL. That is for the Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood-Munger run? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct. + +Mr. BALL. Run 1213. Is this the run schedule that was in effect on +November 22, 1963? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is correct. + +Mr. BALL. It shows here at St. Paul you were to leave at 12:36; is that +correct? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct. + +Mr. BALL. We will make a photostat of that and we will give you back +the original. + +Mr. McWATTERS. You can keep that if you want to. They made another copy +of it. + +Mr. BALL. All right, then, we will keep this as an original. + +Can this be introduced into evidence, Senator? + +Senator COOPER. Yes, let it be made a part of the evidence. + +(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission +Exhibit No. 378, was received in evidence.) + +Mr. BALL. I have a few more questions to ask you, a few more questions, +Mr. McWatters. + +Let's look again at this affidavit. + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. "I picked up a man on the lower end of town on Elm around +Houston," as I remember you didn't stop at Elm and Houston; you stopped +at Record and Houston for a pickup. + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember having picked up any man around the lower end +of town at Elm around Houston? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Elm and Houston? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, no, sir; I didn't pick up. I made a statement here I +picked up---- + +Mr. BALL. Take a look at it, "I picked up a man on the lower end of +town on Elm around Houston." + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, I didn't. I picked--"I picked a man up at the lower +end of town at Elm," no, sir, I didn't pick up no man. + +No, I was tied up in traffic there. Market Street is the--I must not +have read that very good when I signed that, because I sure didn't. No, +I didn't. + +Mr. BALL. Did you pick up a man at Record and Houston? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You didn't? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; that is not even no stop. + +Mr. BALL. In other words, this statement is not an accurate statement? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, sir, because in fact that day the police +wouldn't let nobody, in other words they run them buses through but +they wouldn't let nothing stop there, in other words. + +Mr. BALL. Let's get back to that lineup. + +Did you pick out one man or two men that night as people you had seen, +as a person you had seen before? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I picked out, the only one that I told them it was +the short man that I picked out up there. + +Mr. BALL. And you thought he was the teenager whom you described? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, first that is what I thought he was. + +Mr. BALL. Now you have named him Milton Jones. + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, he was---- + +Mr. BALL. Now you realize you were mistaken in your identification that +night? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is right. + +Mr. BALL. As I understand it, neither then nor now are you able to +identify or say that you have again seen the man that got off your bus +to whom you gave a transfer? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; I couldn't. I could not identify him. + +Mr. BALL. This Beckley bus that we talked about, remember the one that +has the starting point at St. Paul and Elm---- + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. The same as your bus, the Marsalis bus? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. What is the difference in the time run, what time does the +Beckley bus leave--let me withdraw the question. + +Your bus leaves St. Paul and Elm at 12:36, scheduled to leave there as +of November 22d? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Using the same schedule, can you tell me at what time around +12:30 or so that the Beckley bus would leave Elm and St. Paul and +proceed westerly on Elm? + +Mr. McWATTERS. He is scheduled in there the same time as I am, 12:36. + +Mr. BALL. 12:36. Was that bus in the line? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No. In other words, that bus was behind me, in other +words, because when I got there as a general rule, when we pull up +there every day, in other words, I am coming in one direction and he +is another, in other words, most every day, we will pull up at this +intersection at the same time. + +Now, whichever way the light changes is who gets, in other words, who +gets in front of who. But at that day, I am sure that I was ahead of +the Beckley bus. + +Mr. BALL. You are sure you were ahead of it? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Because there wasn't another bus in front of me. I was +the first bus down there that was tied up in there in the traffic. + +Mr. BALL. Did you see the Beckley bus? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You don't remember whether he was behind you or not? + +Mr. McWATTERS. I don't remember whether he was behind me or not. + +Mr. BALL. Can you transfer from your bus to the Beckley bus? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; sure can. + +Mr. BALL. Any particular transfer point? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, there are particular transfer points, but we don't +question anybody within the downtown section with a transfer. + +Mr. BALL. If you gave a transfer to your bus, then that transfer would +be good on a Beckley bus any place along Elm, wouldn't it? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, it sure would. + +Mr. BALL. Up to the place where you change courses? + +Mr. McWATTERS. It would be accepted; yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Your course is westerly on Elm, is identical with that of the +Beckley bus between St. Paul and Houston, isn't it? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct. + +Mr. BALL. And from that point you go south on Houston, and the Beckley +bus continues west on Elm? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct. + +Mr. BALL. So that would be a normal transfer point, wouldn't it? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Houston and Elm? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That would be a transfer. In other words, now, like I +say, Lamar is the general transfer point of where all the buses cross. + +Mr. BALL. Now, that night of the lineup, when you identified this one +short man---- + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. As being probably the teenager that had been on the bus---- + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Was there anything unusual in the conduct of anyone in the +lineup? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No. + +Mr. BALL. Did any man in the lineup talk more than anyone else? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, I believe they had a guy that asked them their +address, and they said, "address" and I don't know, he asked them, I +believe he asked some of them where they lived or some or them where +they worked, or I don't remember just what, in other words, he asked +some enough, every one of them to say some few words. + +Mr. BALL. You could hear them talk? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; you could hear them talk. + +Mr. BALL. Was any one man boisterous, mean, loud, anything of that sort? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, not that I could tell any difference. They all +talked to me as, in other words, you just asked them their name and +address. If they did, I didn't pay any attention to it. + +(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) + +Mr. BALL. This is Exhibit No. 376 that I will show you again. You have +indicated on the map the course of your bus south on Marsalis. Is there +any other bus route that goes south on any street east of Marsalis? + +Mr. McWATTERS. You mean that crosses it this way? + +Mr. BALL. No, goes south. + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, let's see. + +Mr. BALL. Is there a main highway called Denley? Is there a bus route +on Ewing? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. Bus route on Ewing. + +Mr. BALL. That goes south on Ewing? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Does that bus come anywhere near, does that bus run down Elm? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where does it turn to get to Ewing? + +Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, it turns, it goes just like the Marsalis +bus here goes, until he gets---- + +Mr. BALL. Let's start up at Elm here, Elm and Houston now. Does the bus +that goes down Ewing come west on Elm? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Does it go by St. Paul and Elm? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Have a starting point there? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; it is a final point for it right there. + +Mr. BALL. And it goes west on Elm? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Where does it turn off Elm? + +Mr. McWATTERS. It turns the same place as I do, in other words. + +Mr. BALL. South on Houston? + +Mr. McWATTERS. South on Houston. + +Mr. BALL. And then does it go across the Houston Street viaduct? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Then it turns on, how does it get onto Ewing? + +Mr. McWATTERS. It comes on out to Marsalis to, let's see, I have to +find the zoo. That is where it turns right there at the Marsalis +Park, and turns and goes over to Ewing, let's see, what is the name +of that--this bus turns to the left off Marsalis there, it is a +park--there is a big expressway there and it is the first street when +it crosses over the expressway where it turns off of Marsalis on +Opera. The name of the bus is Ramona, it is the same, in other words, +it is the same line as this other one. + +Mr. BALL. As I understand it now the bus that goes down Ewing comes off +the Houston Street viaduct as far as, comes down the Houston Street +viaduct as far as Marsalis, does it? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; and it goes south on Marsalis. + +Mr. BALL. It goes south on Marsalis? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is right. + +Mr. BALL. And it turns over to Ewing, that would be east on Ewing? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes; that would be east. + +Mr. BALL. At or about what point? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, in other words, that is the Marsalis Zoo is where +it is, after you cross the expressway there, it is the first street, +Opera is the name of that and it goes right down to Ewing. + +Mr. BALL. Then at the corner of 11th, at the intersection of 11th and +Marsalis both buses travel the same route? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; they sure do. Both buses travel the same route +to Marsalis and the Ramona bus on that part travel the same route. + +Mr. BALL. Probably on the same route. + +Now, I show you this document which is the bus schedule of +Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood-Munger, and it shows you leave St. Paul at 12:36 +and you arrive at Lamar 12:40. + +The bus transfers are punched you told me for 1 o'clock. We have a +transfer here that you have seen or we will show you in a few minutes +as soon as it gets here, which has a punch mark of 1 o'clock. You told +Senator Cooper that you usually punched within 15 minutes of the time +you reached the transfer points? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. If that is the case, what---- + +Mr. McWATTERS. You mean why did I have it punched at 1 o'clock? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. McWATTERS. Because I punch it p.m. In other words, I have a punch, +I am going to Lakewood, I mean I am going Marsalis and I am going back +Lakewood, so I just take me two books of transfers. Instead of punching +one of them a.m. and one p.m. I just punched them p.m. + +Mr. BALL. Do you punch within 15 minutes of the time you reach the +transfer points? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is the way that the transfers are supposed to be +cut. + +Mr. BALL. Well, if you reach Lamar, if you were to reach Lamar at +12:40, what time, according to the rules should you punch it? + +Mr. McWATTERS. I should have punched it at 12:45. + +Mr. BALL. At 12:45? + +Mr. McWATTERS. But I would have to punch one book a.m. and another one +p.m., so I just punched both of them p.m. + +Mr. BALL. In other words, what you do is punch on the hour rather than +the 45 and 15 minutes usually? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. In other words, your usual practice is not to punch on the +15-minute interval, is that right, but to punch on the hour? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, just like I say within the closest of the hour +like that, in other words. + +Mr. BALL. Suppose today you were wanting to punch some transfers at the +end of the line and you knew you were going to get to Lamar at 12:40. +Would you punch--what would you punch it? + +Mr. McWATTERS. I work that run all the time, I punch at 1 o'clock every +day. As I say I worked it 2 years and as I say in order to keep from +punching one of them a.m. and one p.m., for the difference in the hour +there, I just punch them p.m. + +Mr. BALL. I don't quite understand that. Doesn't your p.m. start at +after 12 o'clock? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the way the transfers are there, did you notice +how they was, they run them until--see how 12:45 there, in other +words, that is what they use that up to a.m. in other words. + +Mr. BALL. It is 12:45 a.m., it runs up to a.m. + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is what they run it to a.m. In other words, after +12:45 or in there, in other words, everything is punched p.m. + +Mr. BALL. In other words, everything in the hour from 12 on is punched +a.m., the day time, 12 to one is a.m., 12 to 12:45, for that hour, a +transfer good in that hour is punched a.m., is that right? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, it can be punched a.m. up to, just like 12:45. + +Mr. BALL. And the next punch is 1 o'clock and that is p.m.? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is p.m.; yes, sir. That is the way they have them. + +Representative FORD. The day that you punched this particular transfer, +November 22? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. You punched them the same that day as you did +every other day? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is right. Every day, in other words, I just punch +them p.m. I punch them p.m., and in other words, so it will be just a +straight cut across it. + +Representative FORD. Is that the usual practice for all bus drivers to +use this practice? + +Mr. McWATTERS. The practice they are supposed to cut them within the +quarter of the hour, but in other words, I just have been working that +run and I just, it is p.m., and I just make one trip one way and one +back the other, and so I--all I carry are two books of transfers and so +I just punch two books p.m., using one going one way at 1 o'clock and +the other coming back at 2. + +Representative FORD. This is the practice you have used for 2 years +approximately? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, when I worked that run, in other words, +when I am going one way at 1 o'clock, coming back from the other end of +the line I set them at 2. I am back in there at, my next trip I am back +in there at Lamar Street, I think it is 1:38 but I always just set them +at 2 o'clock. + +Mr. BALL. We have a couple of more pictures here. 378 and 379 which +are pictures of the interior of the bus--Nos. 379 and 380. (Picture +marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 374 is the same as +Commission Exhibit No. 379.) + +I will first show you 379. Is that a picture of the bus from front to +rear of your bus? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is the front and that is the rear. + +Mr. BALL. Here is 380, is that a picture of the bus taken from the +front taken looking towards the rear? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I offer these in evidence, too. + +Representative FORD. So admitted. + +(The pictures referred to were marked Commission's Exhibits Nos. 379 +and 380 and received in evidence.) + +Mr. BALL. I have here an exhibit which I would like to have marked as +381 which can be identified as a transfer issued by Dallas Transit +Company, Friday, November 22, 1963. + +Do you identify it, can you tell me, if you have ever seen that +transfer before? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, that is my punch mark right on that there; p.m. + +(The transfer was marked Commission Exhibit No. 381 for identification.) + +Mr. BALL. You issued it, did you? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. Tell me when you issued it, on what run? + +Mr. McWATTERS. I issued it on Marsalis and Munger line at I would +say, around to the best of my knowledge it would be around 12:40 or +somewheres in that vicinity on November 22. + +Mr. BALL. And it has your punch mark, has it? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is my punch mark. + +Mr. BALL. Identify it punched in the p.m. section? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Of the Lakewood column here on the transfer. + +Mr. BALL. When did you punch it exactly? Where were you when you +punched it? + +Mr. McWATTERS. I punched it before I left the end of the line, in other +words. + +Mr. BALL. This is number 004459, is the transfer number. Entitled "The +Shoppers Transfer." Every transfer has a separate number, has it? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; everyone has a separate number. + +Mr. BALL. What we would like to do is mark a photostat of the transfer +as 381A and substitute the photostat and we can return the transfer to +the custody of the FBI. + +Representative FORD. The exhibit will be admitted. + +(The photostat referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 381A and +received in evidence.) + +Representative FORD. How many of those transfers did you issue on this +particular run? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well---- + +Representative FORD. Up to the time you passed the Texas School +Depository. + +Mr. McWATTERS. I really don't know because I didn't, see. I didn't know +anything--I didn't put out any--most of the transfers that you put out +at this time or that time of day are for elderly women which get the +shopper's transfers, in other words. It has got a line there, and it +entitles them to a free ride back to where they came from, in other +words, and that time of the morning, because when I get downtown, in +other words, you can catch a bus at Elm Street going to any place that +I would go without having a transfer, in other words. + +Representative FORD. Would you have any recollection of how many +passengers you picked up from the beginning of the line to the time +that this man got on at the middle of the block on Elm Street? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I don't--I recall that I didn't have very many +passengers that day, because I figured that everybody had done gone to +town to see the parade, to see the President, and it just wasn't what +few passengers I recall was mostly elderly women that was going into +town. + +I don't recall just how many of them I did have on the bus. + +Representative FORD. But you did have these two men, the teenager and +this other young man? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that were on the bus. + +Representative FORD. And you very specifically recall giving a transfer +to this woman with the suitcase and the man who was in the second seat +on the right-hand side? + +Mr. McWATTERS. On the right side that got off. In other words, to the +best of my knowledge that is the only two transfers that I put out +going through town that I can recall at all, I mean, because I don't +recall putting out any more transfers than those two that I put out +when I was held up there in traffic. + +Mr. BALL. Mr. McWatters, on this transfer is the name of Shopper's +Transfer. + +Does that have any significance? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is what I was telling him. In other +words, if they want a Shoppers; well I put my punch mark in that +Shoppers there, which they cannot use it for a transfer, in other +words, any more than other than--all the stores, most of them in +downtown Dallas, if you buy as much as a dollar's worth between the +period of ten and four in the afternoon they give you a little white +slip which entitled you to ride what is called the Shopper's Pass. It +rides you back, but in other words you have to, a passenger has to, ask +for it in other words. + +When they say a Shopper, you take a punch and punch your punch mark +where it says Shoppers, but they are not supposed to use the transfer +then to transfer to another bus. They are supposed, in other words, +where it is punched in the store, get it exchanged for their return +fare. + +Mr. BALL. In other words, all your transfers have on them printed the +word "Shopper's Transfer"? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; they do. + +Mr. BALL. And in order to make it a Shopper's Transfer so that the +transfer can be exchanged for a merchandise coupon to ride home, it has +to have your punch in the Shopper's Transfer area, is that right? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct, yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did you know, did you remember, an elderly woman getting on +your bus some place on Elm after you left St. Paul? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Not that I recall. + +Mr. BALL. Do you remember when this man, do you remember when this man +knocked on your window, and you opened your bus and let him on, some +place around Murphy or Griffin and Elm, that an elderly woman got up in +the bus and moved? + +Did you see that or anything like that? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, I don't recall. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know whether or not you left an elderly woman off down +around in the Oak Cliff area some place? + +Mr. McWATTERS. The best I can recall I had two or three or four elderly +women, the best I can remember on the bus when I left town, but I don't +recall where any of them got off. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know a woman named Mary Bledsoe? + +Did you pick anybody up at St. Paul and Elm? + +Mr. McWATTERS. I really don't--I really can't recall whether I did or +not. + +Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. + +Senator COOPER. I would like to ask a few, if I may. + +Am I correct in saying that the direction of your bus at the time of +these events you have testified to it was going west on Elm Street? + +Mr. McWATTERS. West on Elm. In other words, west, the streets of Dallas +all run east and west. + +Senator COOPER. But when you got to Houston Street, then you turned +south? + +Mr. McWATTERS. I turned south, that is correct. + +Senator COOPER. Did your bus pass the Texas School Book Depository? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well---- + +Senator COOPER. I mean does it pass it directly? + +Mr. McWATTERS. It doesn't pass it directly, no, sir. In other words, +where I turn to the left on Houston Street, the book store is across on +the opposite corner. + +Senator COOPER. Now, as you reached Lamar Street, or did you reach +Lamar Street on that date before you passed near the Texas School Book +Depository? + +Mr. McWATTERS. You mean--yes, I have to pass Lamar Street before I get +down to there. + +Senator COOPER. Now, this first affidavit you made on November 22---- + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Which has been referred to in the testimony. + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. + +Senator COOPER. It stated in this affidavit that, "I picked up a man on +the lower end of town on Elm around Houston." + +Now, you picked up a man at that time it would have been after you +passed Lamar Street? + +Mr. McWATTERS. It would have been after I passed Lamar. + +Senator COOPER. The remainder of the affidavit, which has been made a +part of the testimony---- + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. + +Senator COOPER. Refers to that you picked up a woman and you asked her +if she knew the President had been shot, and then the man--you asked +her then to speak to the man behind her. + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. + +Senator COOPER. "Who said the President was shot in the temple." Now, +then, this incident that you testified to in this affidavit, was after +you had passed Elm Street? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is right. + +Senator COOPER. Was the man that you were talking about in this +affidavit the teenager? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. At the time this affidavit was made, were you asked +about any other man who may have been on the run that day at that time? + +Mr. McWATTERS. I don't remember whether I was or not. + +Senator COOPER. What was it then that caused you at some time later to +remember that another man had got on the bus near Murphy and had left +the bus, as you have stated in 2 or 3 blocks in the vicinity of Elm +Street? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, just like I say, the best I can remember is the +man, I believe in fact beside the boy, I believe he was the only man on +board the bus. After I got to recall, in other words---- + +Senator COOPER. But what I am asking you is what it was that caused you +to remember the teenager at the time you made this affidavit on the +22d, and what it was that, why it was that, you didn't at that time +speak of the other man who had got on the bus? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is what I say, it just didn't--it just doesn't +register, I don't know. + +Senator COOPER. Were you asked whether or not any other man was on the +bus? + +Mr. McWATTERS. I don't remember whether I was or not. + +Senator COOPER. When was it that you remembered about the second man +being on the bus, the man that you now state got on around Murphy +Street and got off at Elm? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well. I just studied and tried to remember everything +that I could. In other words, I still, you know, just try to see if I +could remember any incidents or anything that was said or done that I +hadn't thought of and everything. + +Senator COOPER. I think you stated you did not give the teenager any +transfer? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, I don't--no. + +Senator COOPER. Was the fact then that you were shown a transfer by the +police that called your attention to that? + +Mr. McWATTERS. I guess that would probably be---- + +Senator COOPER. Another man? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That would probably be the reason. + +I don't know of any other reason that it would be unless it was the +transfer, that I can recall. + +Senator COOPER. Are you absolutely certain that you did see another man +on that bus? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Do you mean the day? + +Senator COOPER. A man other than the teenager? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I picked up a man. + +Senator COOPER. Where? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Along about Griffin Street that knocked on the door of +the bus. + +Senator COOPER. Is that near Murphy? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is near Murphy, in other words, Murphy is over here +zig-zags, Griffin zig-zags across to Murphy. + +Senator COOPER. Why was it then that when you made this affidavit, you +wouldn't remember that a man knocked on the door to get in the bus? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Just like I say, I guess it never did dawn on me until +I just got to thinking about it and everything, and I had this boy, I +mean was the one I was referring to in that affidavit right there. + +In other words, he was just kind of a slight build, so far as him and +Oswald, I guess they probably somewhere in the same size, I don't know. +But I was mistaken in that, in other words, that was the boy right +there---- + +Senator COOPER. Did the police ask you if any man other than the +teenager was on the bus? + +Mr. McWATTERS. I don't recall whether they did or not. + +Senator COOPER. Did you tell the police at that time on the 22d or the +Federal Bureau of Investigation on the 23d about a man knocking on the +window and wanting to get into the bus? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, I believe I did. + +Senator COOPER. What is it about this transfer that makes you know that +it was a transfer which you issued? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, you look at that old punch mark, I guess as many +times as I have punched it---- + +Senator COOPER. Does each--does each driver have a different punch? + +Mr. BALL. When you weren't here he showed us his punch and he punched +it for us. He has got his punch. + +Mr. McWATTERS. Each driver has a different punch. They all are +registered. In other words, regardless of how many there are--that is +my punch right there--there is some shape or form different, just like +I say the superintendent has every man's name and a punch mark right on +down, in other words, so when---- + +Senator COOPER. Do you know whether the punches are different in the +shape that they make? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; no, sir; I don't know anything about that. I +know---- + +Senator COOPER. What you are saying is, then, you have punched so many +of these transfer that you recognize your own punch? + +Mr. McWATTERS. I can recognize my own punchmark. I don't think there is +supposed to be another---- + +Senator COOPER. Is there anything else on the transfer which indicates +that it was one which would be issued on your bus? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, except only where it is punched--in other words, +I come off of Lakewood Boulevard there where that would be the only +distinction right there, is the punchmark and the name of where I have +it punched there. + +Senator COOPER. Did anyone tell you, either the police or the FBI or +any other officer or any other person, tell you at the time you made +your first affidavit or later that there was another man reported to +have been on your bus and got off? + +Mr. McWATTERS. I don't recall. + +Senator COOPER. Have you ever reported to the police the fact that you +have carried as a passenger since November 22d the teenager whom you +have now identified as having the name of Milton Jones? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Did I ever report it to the police? + +Senator COOPER. Yes. + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Have they ever been back to talk to you any more about +this? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. + +Senator COOPER. About this matter? + +Mr. McWATTERS. They have never been back to me. The only time they have +talked to me---- + +Senator COOPER. Did you ever see---- + +Mr. McWATTERS. I beg pardon? + +Senator COOPER. You saw--was any of the men in the police lineup ever +identified to you as being Lee Oswald? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Any men in the---- + +Senator COOPER. Yes, I think you saw the men in the lineup, didn't you? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. + +Senator COOPER. Before you were asked to select a man in the lineup, +did the police or any officer identify any one of them as bearing the +name of Lee Oswald? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; they never stated anything. + +Senator COOPER. Later was he identified to you in any way? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Was he identified to me? + +Senator COOPER. As being Lee Oswald? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, they didn't tell me as far as saying, mentioning any +name Lee Oswald, it was never, the name Lee Oswald, I don't believe was +ever mentioned while we was back there. + +Senator COOPER. Did you ever see this same man you call No. 2 in the +lineup again--did you ever go back there after that time and see this +same person again? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Identified as No. 2? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; I never did go back any more, that was the only +time I was ever there was the one on November 22, about 6 something in +the afternoon. + +Senator COOPER. Have you seen photographs of a man who is named in +those photographs as being Lee Oswald? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Have I saw them? + +Senator COOPER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Well, now, you have seen this young man, Milton Jones, +several times since then? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Now after having seen him several times since then, +and having seen these photographs of the man who is identified as Lee +Oswald---- + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. + +Senator COOPER. Does Milton Jones look like Lee Oswald? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, they both, just like I say, about the same height, +and same build, and everything, as far as identifying looking at a man +in the face--of course, I know him now, distinctly. + +Senator COOPER. But at this time would you identify him as Lee Oswald +from the photographs you have seen of Lee Oswald? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Right now? + +Senator COOPER. Yes. + +Mr. McWATTERS. No. At the time, I couldn't then, in other words, even +from the recalling of what I seen him then, I mean just to say that the +height and size of him, no, I wouldn't make the statement that I could +now. + +Senator COOPER. Are you certain that you did see some man who knocked +on the window of your door of your bus and wanted to get in your bus at +some point near Murphy? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I am positive about that. There was---- + +Senator COOPER. You saw that man get off later? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. + +Senator COOPER. Before you got to---- + +Mr. McWATTERS. Before I got to Lamar Street, between Poydras and Lamar. + +Senator COOPER. That is all. + +Mr. McWATTERS. The best I can remember is that is where I issued two +transfers. That is the best I can remember. + +Mr. BALL. To clear this matter up with your punch, you have your punch +there, have you? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. + +Mr. BALL. That was issued to you by the Dallas Transit Company? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Does that make a different mark in a transfer than any other +punch issued to any other driver in the Dallas Transit Company? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. It is a distinctive mark? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; it is supposed to be, there is not supposed to +be any driver that has a punch that makes a punchmark like my punch. + +Mr. BALL. So your supervisor could take this transfer and compare it +with his list in his office? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is right. + +Mr. BALL. And he could see McWatters issued this transfer? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is right; that is the way, if they have any +complaint, any transfers brought in to him, he has a list. When he +looked at the punchmark he knows the man's name, and his badge number. + +Mr. BALL. And this document here which is 381, you have identified that +punchmark as the one made by your punch? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that punchmark was made by that punch right +there. + +Mr. BALL. Now, there are on this transfer two punches, there is one in +p.m., and there is marked punch Lakewood. Now, the p.m., refers to the +time? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. But Lakewood refers to a certain location on your run, +doesn't it? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. If this transfer was issued around the Lamar area or St. +Paul--Elm area, is there any place that you could punch and show that +particular location? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. + +Mr. BALL. You always punch at the end of your destination? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, that is the usual procedure on it. + +Mr. BALL. Now, on one side of Lakewood is Beckley, where is that? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, that is on the opposite of town from---- + +Mr. BALL. The other side is Capital. Where is that? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Capital, well, Capital is in north Dallas, I believe it +is. + +Mr. BALL. Are those Beckley lines listed on the transfer on your run? + +Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; I don't--you mean on the transfer? + +Mr. BALL. Yes. + +Mr. McWATTERS. Well, that is, in other words, we all--they have so many +of the lines listed, in other words, I believe they have two divisions, +I believe all the buses that work out of the east Dallas division +have---- + +Mr. BALL. We can make this pretty simple. You have on this transfer +certain names. When you are running Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood-Munger, how +many possible punches would--location punches would you make? + +Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, if I was--Marsalis when I left the end +of Marsalis out there I would punch my transfer Marsalis, if I left the +end of Ramona I would punch them Ramona. In other words, that is so +they can't ride them, in other words, they can't ride the transfer. + +Mr. BALL. Now, Lakewood is at one end of your run? + +Mr. McWATTERS. That is right. + +Mr. BALL. And Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood is the other, is that right? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. So you would punch one of those names? + +Mr. McWATTERS. Going that way, while at Marsalis, I would punch the +Lakewood when I would leave Marsalis coming toward Lakewood, I would +have Lakewood on the front of my bus but I would punch the transfer +Marsalis. + +Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. + +Representative FORD. Thank you very much, Mr. McWatters. + +Mr. McWATTERS. Thank you, gentlemen. + + +TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM WAYNE WHALEY RESUMED + +Mr. BALL. Mr. Whaley. I have here an exhibit which I will mark 370. + +(The document was marked Commission Exhibit No. 370 for identification.) + +Mr. BALL. 370 is a photostat of a manifest of yours, and it is dated +November 22, 1963. I mark this 370. Do you recognize that? + +Mr. WHALEY. That is the original trip sheet. + +Mr. BALL. In your handwriting? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; in my handwriting. + +Mr. BALL. I will offer this into evidence at this time, and the +original trip sheet as Exhibit No. 382. + +Representative FORD. So admitted. + +(Commission Exhibits Nos. 370 and 382 were received in evidence.) + +Mr. BALL. I have here a bracelet which is marked 383. Take a look at it +and tell me if you have ever seen it before. + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; as near as I can tell that is the bracelet he was +wearing the day I carried him, the shiny bracelet I was talking about. + +Mr. BALL. You mentioned the fact that the man who sat in the front seat +of your cab, which you drove from the Greyhound Station on Lamar Street +over to 500 North Beckley, had an identification bracelet on him. + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, it looked like an identification bracelet. It looks +like this one, sir, it was shiny, I couldn't tell exactly whether that +was the bracelet or not. + +Mr. BALL. But it looks like one of them? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; it looks like it. + +Mr. BALL. Offer this in evidence. + +Representative FORD. So admitted. + +(Commission Exhibit No. 383 was withdrawn and a photograph of the +bracelet was received as Commission Exhibit No. 383-A.) + +Representative FORD. What hand or what arm did he have it on? + +Mr. WHALEY. He had it on the arm next to me, which was the left arm. + +Representative FORD. Was it protruding below the sleeve or jacket? + +Mr. WHALEY. His coatsleeve was like this when he stretches his arm out +it was short, that is when I saw it. + +Representative FORD. Where was his hand when you saw it, if you can +recollect it? + +Mr. WHALEY. Well, just moving. You know you catch any bright object, +why you notice it, that is how I noticed it. He was just moving his +hand around. When the old lady stuck her head in the door and asked me +to call her a cab, why he reached over to the door to open it like he +told her she could have that one but she decided that she would wait +for the next one because he already had that one. And that is when I +saw it, sir. + +In the picture, I believe, I don't think he had it on in that picture +in the paper the next morning. + +Representative FORD. This is something you clearly noticed while he was +riding in the car with you? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I noticed it; yes, sir. I always notice +watchbands, unusual watchbands, and identification bracelets like +these, because I make them myself. I made this one. + +Representative FORD. In other words, you have a particular interest in +them? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, I particularly notice things like that. + +Representative FORD. Did you notice anything unusual about it? + +Mr. WHALEY. No, sir, it was just a common stretchband identification +bracelet. A lot of them are made of chain links and not stretchbands. +Stretchbands are unusual because there is very few of them. + +Representative FORD. In other words, this was an unusual band? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; this one was a stretchband like the one you +showed me. + +Representative FORD. It is sort of a hobby with you to make these kinds +of wristbands? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I make watchbands like that. + +Mr. BALL. Do you recall when you told, talked to the Dallas police +officers that you told them that you had seen a heavy identification +bracelet on this passenger's wrist? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir, I told them about the bracelet. + +Mr. BALL. You told the FBI officers, also? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; but I don't remember saying it was heavy because +I wouldn't have known how heavy it was without handling it. + +Mr. BALL. You described the bracelet? + +Mr. WHALEY. I just described the bracelet as a shiny bracelet. + +Mr. BALL. A moment ago you told us about this man getting into your cab +and an old lady coming up and asking for a cab. + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. Did the man sitting next to you open the door? + +Mr. WHALEY. He just started to, sir, just reached for door handle and +she said she wanted me to call one. She didn't want that. + +Mr. BALL. Did the man who was sitting beside you in the cab say +anything? + +Mr. WHALEY. Only that she could have that one. + +Mr. BALL. He said that? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. BALL. I think that is all. + +Any other questions of this witness? + +Did you describe the shirt that this man had on to the police? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir, I did. + +Mr. BALL. What did you tell them? + +Mr. WHALEY. To the best of my ability, I did, sir. I just told them it +was a dark colored shirt with what looked like a silver lining. + +Mr. BALL. Were you shown the shirt later? + +Mr. WHALEY. About, it was at least a week later, sir, an FBI man +brought the shirt over and showed it to me. + +Mr. BALL. Is that the same shirt you saw here? + +Mr. WHALEY. I think it is, sir. I am not positive but it had the same +kind of silver streak in it. + +Mr. BALL. What did you tell the FBI man who brought the shirt to you? + +Mr. WHALEY. I told him to the best of my ability that was the shirt he +had on. + +Mr. BALL. Did the man riding with you say anything at all except tell +you where he wanted to go? + +Mr. WHALEY. That is all, sir, except he said when we got to where he +wanted to go he said, "This will do fine," when I pulled over. + +Mr. BALL. Now, in the police lineup now, and this man was talking to +the police and telling them he wanted a lawyer, and that they were +trying to, you say he said they were trying to, frame him or something +of that sort---- + +Mr. WHALEY. Well, the way he talked that they were doing him an +injustice by putting him out there dressed different than these other +men he was out there with. + +Mr. BALL. Now, did anyone, any policeman, who was there, say anything +to him? + +Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; Detective Sergeant Leavelle, I believe it was, +told him that they had, would get him his lawyers on the phone, that +they didn't think they were doing him wrong by putting him out there +dressed up. + +Representative FORD. Did the man you identified have any reaction when +they brought the group out, did he have any reaction that you noticed +at the time you identified him? + +Mr. WHALEY. Only that he was the only one that had the bruise on his +head, sir. The only one who acted surly. In other words, I told this +Commission this morning you wouldn't have had to have known who it was +to have picked him out by the way he acted. But he was the man that +I carried in my taxicab. I told them when I identified him. I didn't +identify him as the man who shot the President. I identified him as the +man who rode from the Greyhound to 1500 North Beckley with me. + +Representative FORD. Did you point him out with your hand? + +Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; I did not. They asked me which number he was +standing under and he was standing under No. 2. + +Representative FORD. Could he hear you make this identification? + +Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; he couldn't see me. + +Representative FORD. He couldn't see you? + +Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; they had the black silk screen that keeps the +prisoners from seeing the people who show up. + +Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. + +Senator COOPER. I have no questions. + +Mr. BALL. Do you know a taxi driver named Darrell Click? + +Mr. WHALEY. I may know his face, sir, but not his name. + +Mr. BALL. You don't know his name? + +Mr. WHALEY. We go mostly by numbers. + +Mr. BALL. Okay, no further questions. + +The witness is excused. + +Representative FORD. May we wait just a moment, please? Would you like +to make a statement, Mr. Powell? + +Mr. POWELL. Mr. Chairman, I think I might say just this: I am here +representing Mr. Walter Craig, as I think the Commission understands. +I have been here the last two days. In a conversation with Mr. Rankin +yesterday morning we agreed that rather than my asking questions +directly of witnesses, I would make suggestions to Mr. Ball or to one +of his associates, and I have been following that practice yesterday +and today, after consulting with Mr. Murray who is also here for +Mr. Craig, and Mr. Ball and his associates have followed up these +suggestions that we have made. + +Representative FORD. The suggestions you have made have been +transmitted to Mr. Ball or his associates and have been asked of the +various witnesses? + +Mr. POWELL. That is correct. + +Representative FORD. Any other questions? + +Thank you very much, Mr. Whaley. + +Mr. WHALEY. Thank you, sir. I am glad to be able to be of service. + +(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +_Friday, March 13, 1964_ + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. KATHERINE FORD, DECLAN P. FORD, AND PETER PAUL GREGORY + +The President's Commission met at 9:10 a.m. on Friday, March 13, 1964, +at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. + +Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Gerald +R. Ford, member. + +Also present were Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; Norman +Redlich, assistant counsel; and Charles Murray, observer. + + +TESTIMONY OF MRS. KATHERINE FORD + +The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. + +Mrs. Ford, I would just like to read to you a short statement +concerning the purpose of the meeting. + +I think you have had a copy of it but I will just read it for the +record. + +Mrs. FORD. Yes, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. The purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of +Mr. and Mrs. Declan P. Ford and Mr. Peter Paul Gregory. The Commission +has been advised that Mr. and Mrs. Ford made the acquaintance of the +Oswalds shortly after their arrival in the United States in June +of 1962, and that Mrs. Marina Oswald lived in the Ford home on two +different occasions in November 1962, and for a period following +February 12, 1964. + +The Commission has also been advised that Mr. Gregory was contacted by +Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald shortly after Mr. Oswald's return from Russia as +a result of which Mr. and Mrs. Oswald made the acquaintance of a large +number of Russian-speaking people in the Dallas and Fort Worth area. + +Since the Commission is inquiring fully into the background and +possible motive of Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged assassin, it intends +to ask the above witnesses questions concerning Mr. Oswald, his +associations and relations with others and any and all other matters +relating to the assassination. + +Would you please rise and be sworn, Mrs. Ford. + +Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before the Commission will +be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you +God? + +Mrs. FORD. I do. + +The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated. Mr. Liebeler will conduct the +examination. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? + +Mrs. FORD. My maiden name? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mrs. FORD. Katrina Evstratova. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born, Mrs. Ford? + +Mrs. FORD. Nova Tchkarsk. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell us just briefly how you came to come to +the United States, Mrs. Ford? + +Mrs. FORD. How I came to the United States; I was in Germany during the +war. I was taken there by Germans, not in concentration camps, but in +labor camp, and after we were liberated by Americans I got acquainted +with an American soldier and was married to him, and that is how I came +straight to Dallas. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was this soldier's name that you married? + +Mrs. FORD. Skotnicki. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you were married to him in about 1946? + +Mrs. FORD. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you subsequently divorced him? + +Mrs. FORD. Approximately 4 years ago, a little over 4 years. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I want to ask you a few questions about Mr. Skotnicki and +some of the people that he knew. + +Do you still have any friends that were your friends when you were +married to Mr. Skotnicki? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; I would think, some neighbors, I would say that we +would be still--we don't see together, acquaintances together with +those friends but I am sure they are still friendly. He is still +friendly with the same people as I am. I would say Campbells down on +6468 Lane, the old house still stands there I would think he would +still be friendly with them, and I know them very well. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't continue to see Mr. Skotnicki in any way, do +you? + +Mrs. FORD. No, no; I have no reason for it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not Mr. Skotnicki has a friend by +the name of John M. Grizzaffi? That is spelled G-r-i-z-z-a-f-f-i. + +Mrs. FORD. I think that he is friends, yes. It is a neighbor across the +street. He was friendly with that man. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us just a little bit about Mr. Grizzaffi, +if you know about him? + +Mrs. FORD. I think he is in grocery business, that is what I know about +him, and I believe, I wouldn't say he is busy in local politics but +he is always talking about people he knows around town that are in +politics, and that is about all I know. I was never very friendly with +his wife and so I just know a little bit about him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Mr. Grizzaffi is a friend of Jack +Ruby's? + +Mrs. FORD. That I don't know. I was told by my son that Mr. Grizzaffi +knew Ruby. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your son told you that? + +Mrs. FORD. My young son. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is you son's name? + +Mrs. FORD. My son's name is Gary. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How old is he? + +Mrs. FORD. Twelve. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He is a son by Mr. Skotnicki? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is he living with you and Mr. Ford? + +Mrs. FORD. He lives with me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Mr. Skotnicki knew the Oswalds? + +Mrs. FORD. No; I don't think he did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he knew anything about the Oswalds? + +Mrs. FORD. Unless something was told by my son or something, by +children. I don't think he knew them personally. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You yourself didn't have any conversations with Mr. +Skotnicki about the Oswalds? + +Mrs. FORD. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I want to go through a list of names which I will go +through fairly quickly and ask you if you recognize any of these names +or if you know any of the people. + +Do you know a gentleman by the name of George Senator? + +Mrs. FORD. No; I don't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How about a man by the name of Ralph Paul? + +Mrs. FORD. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Andrew Armstrong? + +Mrs. FORD. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a lady by the name of Karen Bennett? + +Mrs. FORD. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Bruce Carlin? + +Mrs. FORD. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a man by the name of Roy William Pike? + +Mrs. FORD. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How about Larry Crafard? + +Mrs. FORD. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You yourself don't know Jack Ruby in any way? + +Mrs. FORD. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Does Mr. Ford know Mr. Ruby? + +Mrs. FORD. No; I don't thing so; no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a lady by the name of Earlene Roberts? + +Mrs. FORD. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mary Bledsoe? + +Mrs. FORD. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Bertha Cheek? + +Mrs. FORD. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. John Carter. + +Mrs. FORD. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How about Mr. and Mrs. A. C. Johnson? + +Mrs. FORD. A. C. Johnson, I don't think so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any connection between Mr. Oswald, Lee +Harvey Oswald and Jack Ruby? + +Mrs. FORD. No; I don't know. I don't know that they knew each other. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell the Commission, Mrs. Ford, how you first +met the Oswalds? + +Mrs. FORD. We were invited there after lunch, the Oswalds had a +luncheon at Anna Meller's house, and we were invited after luncheon to +meet them, and that was our first contact with them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me when that was, approximately? + +Mrs. FORD. I would say it was approximately at the end of August of +1962. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us who was at the luncheon? + +Mrs. FORD. I believe there was Mr. and Mrs. Ted Meller and George Bouhe +and the Oswalds and ourselves, I believe that is all I remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who first told you about the Oswalds? Did you hear of +them the first time that you came to that luncheon or had you heard of +them before? + +Mrs. FORD. I had heard of them maybe a couple of weeks before from Mr. +George Bouhe, I believe, who had told us that there was a young Russian +girl came to Fort Worth and the man was out of a job, and that was the +reason for us to try to help them. And she had a baby and so forth. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Bouhe tell you anything else about the Oswalds? + +Mrs. FORD. No; he was just telling that the man was having a very hard +time finding a job because the last job he had was in Minsk or so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that Mr. Oswald had been in Russia? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; he did. He told us about that he was in Russia and +decided to come back and he brought a Russian wife with him who didn't +speak English and had a tiny baby and both were having a very hard time +at the moment. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Bouhe tell you anything about the circumstances +under which Mr. Oswald went to Russia? + +Mrs. FORD. No; nothing like that was discussed. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At the luncheon at which you and your husband, and Mr. +and Mrs. Meller---- + +Mrs. FORD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And Mr. Bouhe were present---- + +Mrs. FORD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was said at that time? + +Mrs. FORD. At the time we were present, actually, I was only interested +in economic conditions of Russia at the moment, for me to compare them +with the time I was living there, and they were showing some pictures +of Minsk and Leningrad and some of the pictures of some of the friends +of Marina's friends, girl friends. + +(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with the Oswalds at that +time about the kind of apartment that they had when they lived in Minsk? + +Mrs. FORD. I don't remember any particulars about that apartment, but +they were talking about, I think, about the apartment, I don't know +exactly what was said about it. I know it was, I think I remember they +were saying they lived in one room and sharing a kitchen. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you how they came to meet each other in +Russia and how they came to be married? + +Mrs. FORD. It wasn't said at that particular time, but I remember +Marina was telling me afterwards how they came to meet each other, and +I believe it was at a dance some place at the Hall of Culture or some +place they would have in Russia dances, and she met him there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Of the people that were at this luncheon, aside from +yourself, how many of them were originally born in Russia? + +Mrs. FORD. Mr. Bouhe and I believe and Mr. Meller would be--I believe +Ted Meller was born in Poland. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did it appear to you at the time of that luncheon that +Lee Harvey Oswald lived like other Russian people lived or did it +appear that he might have received preferential treatment in some way. + +Did you gather an impression about that during the course of your +conversation? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; I believe he was still in something of a hardship in +living in Russia, that was the reason for his leaving Russia. That it +was rather difficult to make his ends meet as we say, because he was +comparing it with his living standards of Marina's uncle who was a +colonel or a major, I don't know, I wouldn't say because I don't know. +He was saying that they had a very lovely apartment consisting of maybe +four or five rooms and he was comparing it with his apartment, and such. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he compare his apartment with the apartment of other +workers who worked in Minsk? + +Mrs. FORD. No; I don't think so. He was just comparing, I believe with +her uncle. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much money he was paid at his job? + +Mrs. FORD. I don't remember, he was saying or Marina was saying +something, 80 rubles, I don't know which one gave me that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate whether that was about the same that +other people were paid or more? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; about the same as the workers were paid. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, is there anything else you can remember about that +luncheon, the conversation at that luncheon which you would like to +tell the Commission about other than what we have already touched on? + +Mrs. FORD. Well, I don't know what was important. I know he was +saying--my husband made a sort of a joking statement that he had a +child born in Russia, and he said, well, if it wasn't for the Americans +she wouldn't be born over there because he had to wait so long to get a +visa, I don't know what else he said. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That was a visa for him to return? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; and the little girl, June, was born there because of +that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And Lee Oswald blamed the Americans for causing the delay? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate what attitude the Russian authorities +took when he told them he wanted to come back to the United States? + +Mrs. FORD. No; I don't know. He didn't say anything. I don't remember +discussing it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say anything about the attitude they took toward +letting Marina leave Russia and coming to the United States? + +Mrs. FORD. I don't believe anything was said about that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything else you can remember about that +luncheon now you think we ought to know about? + +Mrs. FORD. Well, I am thinking, I really don't think I remember +anything else. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was the next contact then that you had with the +Oswalds? + +Mrs. FORD. I think it must have been at--in late October or the first +part of November when Mr. Bouhe called me and said that Marina made a +call to Anna Meller and told her she is leaving her husband because of +she can't stand the beating and treatment any longer from Lee Oswald, +but none of us knew at the moment that he had mistreated her that way, +but at the time at the party I remember seeing Marina with bruises on +her face and she made excuses of running into a door or something at +the night when attending the baby. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This was the first time you saw her? + +Mrs. FORD. That is right, the first time I saw her I did see bruises on +her face. And George Bouhe was saying that Anna Meller, I don't know +who picked her up, I believe George Bouhe because Anna Meller don't +have a car, they went to Marina's apartment and picked up the baby +things, playpen, and other things that she could take with her at the +time, and she stayed there, I couldn't say how many days. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Stayed with Mrs. Meller? + +Mrs. FORD. With Mrs. Meller, I don't think it was longer than a week, +and then my husband was supposed to go away for a week or so; I don't +remember the time, I thought he was going--he said he had to go Austin +and I told Mr. Bouhe that I could take her for a week, just take her +in, if she didn't have a place to go, so I did, and she stayed with me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Why did she come to you as opposed to staying with Anna +Meller? + +Mrs. FORD. Anna Meller has a small two-room apartment and I have a +bigger house. We have four bedrooms so I could make room for her and +her children. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When Mr. Bouhe called you and told you about this, did he +tell you anything about why Marina was leaving Lee Oswald? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; he said because of mistreatment and she decided she is +not going to return to him any longer, and Mr. Bouhe said, told her, +if she made a promise to him she is not going to return to that man he +will help her all he could to find a place to stay permanently such +as maybe as help at home at somebody's house until she learns enough +English to start going on her own whatever she could do. + +And I think he was trying to do, he was trying to find a place and that +is the reason before that she needed a place to stay until she did find +a place, and I kept her for a week until my husband returned and then +another friend of mine, who also has a fairly large place where Marina +could be comfortable, she told me she could keep her there for as long +as Marina wished to stay. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did Marina actually get to your place? Did Mr. Bouhe +bring her to your place? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; he did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how long Marina stayed with Anna Meller +before she came to your place? + +Mrs. FORD. It could be a week but I am not sure. But I don't think it +is longer than a week. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lee Oswald come to see Marina while Marina was at +your house? + +Mrs. FORD. No; he did not but he did talk to her on the telephone, I +think approximately after 3 days, after she stayed with me he called +her up every night, I think he did call, every evening. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina talk to him on the telephone? + +Mrs. FORD. She was hesitating at first but he wouldn't leave the +telephone until she came to telephone and she was talking to him. I +didn't hear what he was saying but she was telling him not to call on +her again and not to bother, she was not going to return to him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you what the conversations were about? + +Mrs. FORD. No. She did not say anything. + +Representative FORD. When was this period that she stayed with you, +October and November of 1963? + +Mrs. FORD. I believe it must have been the first part of November. + +Representative FORD. Of 1963? + +Mrs. FORD. 1962. + +Representative FORD. 1962. + +Mrs. FORD. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did Marina Oswald pay you anything for the privilege +of staying at your home at that time? + +Mrs. FORD. No; I did not expect it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any arrangement she would work in the house? + +Mrs. FORD. No; there was no arrangement; no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what Marina told you while she was staying there +about her relations with Lee Oswald and particularly as to why she +separated from him and what the difficulties were in their marriage? + +Mrs. FORD. I think mostly it was a mistreatment by him that she +couldn't stand any longer, she was saying. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mistreatment by him? + +Mrs. FORD. Mistreatment by him; yes. That is what she was saying. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you any more specifically than that what the +problem was? + +Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't really. She did not elaborate. She did not go +into explanations of their living together. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she mention that Lee Oswald was jealous of the +Russian friends that Marina had? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; she did. She told me that, that he was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did they argue about that? + +Mrs. FORD. Well, I didn't know if they were arguing about that. I know +she said that he was very jealous of them helping Marina and jealous +for the reason that he wasn't able to provide her at the time with any +of the things that they were giving Marina, clothes, and baby clothes, +and I think that he was--it was making him rather mad because he said +he was unable to buy the things for her at the time, and I know that he +was not accepting things people were giving him. He was telling her not +to take them but she was taking them because she needed them. I suppose +they were arguing about that but I don't remember the particulars. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression at the time that Marina lived +with you for that week as to what the cause of their difficulties might +be? + +Mrs. FORD. She mentioned one time that soon after marriage he told her +he didn't love her any more in any way. So I don't know what is the +difficulty, I don't know if that is what she mentioned. She did not +explain and didn't go into explanations of this. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think, did you form an opinion as to whether this +separation and the difficulties they were having was primarily the +result of Oswald's behavior or did you think Marina might have been +partially responsible for it, what did you think? + +Mrs. FORD. My own opinion was that Marina was responsible for it. I +think Marina was and I think now she is a rather immature girl. + +The CHAIRMAN. She is what? + +Mrs. FORD. I think she is rather immature in thinking. + +The CHAIRMAN. Oh, yes. + +Mrs. FORD. And a lot of times she agreed herself about provoking him in +a way by arguing about his mother or things of some sort. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you about arguments concerning his +mother? + +Mrs. FORD. Well, I don't know really. She would say something that he +was badly brought up or something like that. + +Representative FORD. He was what? + +Mrs. FORD. Badly brought up, some sort of thing, and he would get mad +and slam her for that or something and then he was telling her not to +let mother in, and when mother comes to the apartment she would let her +in and then they would argue over that. + +Representative FORD. He would tell her not to let the mother in? + +Mrs. FORD. That is right, and she would because she said she just +couldn't do that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you at that time what her feelings toward +Lee's mother were? + +Mrs. FORD. I don't remember her saying anything one way or the other if +she liked her or didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether Marina might have mentioned that +Lee Oswald had spoken to a neighbor and told the neighbor that Marina +was from Czechoslovakia? + +Mrs. FORD. No; I don't know of anything like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know at any time that Oswald didn't want +people to know that his wife was from Russia? Marina didn't mention +that? + +Mrs. FORD. Not around us, we didn't because we knew it anyway. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Marina didn't mention anything like that to you? + +Mrs. FORD. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When Marina lived with you during that time did she tell +you anything about her background in Russia, did she tell you about her +birthplace and youth in Russia? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; she was going into more of that in talking with me +more than anything else, I think. Actually most of the time she was +talking about her friends during, I think about when she was going to +school, about her boy friends and things she was talking to me about +her friends and she did go into talk about when she lived in, let's +see, it is not Ukraine, I think it is Bessarabia, right now where would +that place be, to live there, and she was very young, I believe, let's +see she was born during the war, and they were sent somewhere, I don't +know where they were sent, but then she lived there in Bessarabia for +a few years, because there was a lot of food there and vegetables and +they were sent there, to feed, like they sent the cattle to be fed +up, I believe that is the expression she used after the war where the +children could eat a lot of fruit and then she returned to Leningrad, I +believe. + +I don't know how long she lived in Bessarabia. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you about her life in Leningrad, just +briefly, if you will summarize it for us. + +Mrs. FORD. Well, really, I don't know--the only thing I knew was about +some of the things she was telling me about friends she had there, she +had a friend that was a medical student and she told me she talked a +lot on the telephone to him, and she was rather, I thought that is +where I made the impression to me, it made an impression to me she was +immature, she liked to talk to the man for a long time in the evening +but she was afraid to be seen with him in the streets, he was ugly, so +I thought it was rather strange, you know, and then---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you who she was living with in Leningrad? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; she was living with her stepfather, that is what I +remember, living with a stepfather she was telling me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you about her relations with her stepfather? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; she did. She didn't like him and I think he doesn't +like her, either; they never did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you any reasons why she did not like him? + +Mrs. FORD. She was telling me a lot of times, she was telling me about +her mother, the mother didn't want to show affection to Marina or +something like that because the father was jealous of that affection, +and I think he did some sort of a cruel thing to her once that she +doesn't--she still remembers as being very cruel, something of accusing +her of taking some family silver and selling it while she knows that +he had pawned the silver for buying liquor, because it showed up, she +couldn't explain it to her aunt and it just made her feel very bad at +that time. + +I think she just could never forgive him for that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you about her move to Minsk? + +Mrs. FORD. Well, she didn't tell me at that time. I just found it out +not too long ago that was the reasons she wanted to get away from a +friend that she found out later that he was married, she went with him +for a short while she did not know he was married, but she did not go +into particulars of explaining the whole thing to me. + +Representative FORD. She was going with a man who was married? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes. She met him somewhere, she had two tickets, she said, +to a theater or to a movie, and she wanted to sell one ticket and he +was the person who bought the ticket and they sat together in a movie +house and later on, I believe, I don't know how they got to know each +other later on, it was a few times they met, they have seen each other +and at one time she went to his apartment, to the house that he lived, +to call on him, and someone said that, "oh, that is the man who has +that little boy," and she said she just turned around and went home. +That is the time she found out he was married and was deceiving her. + +But I don't know why she left, I mean why, exactly she left but I think +this is the person that was her reason for leaving Leningrad. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that she had left in part at least to +get away from this man? + +Mrs. FORD. That is what I understood. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did Marina tell you why she married Lee Oswald when +she was in Russia, did she talk to you about that? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; she did. + +I don't exactly know why she married him. But she said she met him at a +dance, and soon after that, I don't know the reason why he was in the +hospital but he was in a hospital, and she called on him, and I don't +know how long he stayed there, either, and she liked the man, I think, +and she bought him an Easter Egg, that was during Easter sometime and +he was very surprised that such a thing could be done in Russia. + +I think it rather pleased him very well. She said somehow she felt +sorry for the man because none of her friends liked him, and mistrusted +him, and she felt sort of like she was on the defensive, she wanted to, +she felt sorry for him in a way. + +Representative FORD. Did she tell you why her friends didn't trust him? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; she said they were thinking that he was an American +spy or something like that, that is what they were trying to tell her. +"Maybe he is a spy, and how can you trust a man like that?" + +She told me the other day, she says no one trusted him, but she says, +"I wasn't afraid of him," that is how she put it. + +Representative FORD. Did Marina indicate to you whether she thought or +had any reason to believe that Oswald was a spy? + +Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't. She didn't think so. She never said that, I +mean. + +Representative FORD. Did Marina ever indicate to you or did you gather +that one of the reasons that Marina married Lee Oswald was she had the +possibility of leaving the Soviet Union in mind? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes. She never did go out directly and say that but I think +I got an impression that was her reason. She was telling me that way +before she met Oswald she was dreaming of coming over here, and that +is, I mean gathering by that later I thought that she wanted to come +over, and he was, I suppose he was a reason. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In this connection, I wanted to ask you whether you ever +had any contact with any newspaper reporters from the Dallas newspapers +about this, did they ask you about this at any time? + +Mrs. FORD. About this I don't remember if they asked me. I don't +remember. But a couple of reporters came to my house soon after the +assassination and talked to me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I represent to you that there was a story in the November +27, 1963, issue of the Dallas Times Herald which told about some +Russian-born woman in Dallas to whom Marina had supposedly confided +some of the most intimate secrets of her stormy marriage, in the words +of the newspaper article. Do you have any knowledge whether that would +be you or somebody else? + +Mrs. FORD. I think that would be me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the reporters that Marina had told you that +Marina had felt sorry for Oswald because everybody hated him even in +Russia? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; I might have said that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Marina did say that to you? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; she did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you anything at this time about their +trip back to the United States and the difficulties that they +encountered, or how they did it, that sort of thing? + +Mrs. FORD. No; I never talked with her about that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any conversation while Marina stayed with you +during that week in November 1962, about the possibility of a divorce, +of her divorcing Lee Oswald? + +Mrs. FORD. The possibility--I know she didn't want to go back to him at +the time she stayed with me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't remember any specific conversation? + +Mrs. FORD. No; I don't remember any specific conversation. + +Mr. LIEBELER. About divorce? + +Mrs. FORD. Frankly, there was talk about it, she didn't want to go back +and I just told her, I felt that Marina wasn't really the domestic type +she could stand very long being a help at home, not that I think she is +not capable of taking care of her own house. I see now since she has +got even her own place she keeps it very clean and her children are +always neat. But she wasn't right for domestic help and I told her to +stay with Lee, that is what I told her myself, and wait until she could +be able to take care of herself other than working in a house. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did she say about that? + +Mrs. FORD. She didn't say, she was really just listening, I think, and +she didn't say anything. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina say anything to you at this time about wanting +to go back to Russia? + +Mrs. FORD. No, no; she didn't want to. + +In fact, she told me that Lee soon after he came to the United States, +he was telling her that he would want to go back because he couldn't +find a job here and he was, of course, seeing a lot of difficulties for +himself, and Marina said, "If you want to go back, you can go but I am +not going," that is what she told me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Marina told Lee if he wanted to go back he could but she +wasn't going to go back to Russia. + +Mrs. FORD. That is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that all the conversation that you had with her about +going back to Russia at that time? + +Mrs. FORD. That is right. That is about all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where the Oswalds lived at this time when +Marina came to the Meller's house and then to your house? + +Mrs. FORD. No; I have never been at their apartment, and she couldn't +tell me. I know she lived in Oak Cliff, the Dallas section about +southwest, I believe. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In Dallas? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether Marina had lived with a lady in Fort +Worth before they came to Dallas? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; I know they stayed there but I didn't talk to her +during the time and I didn't visit her. I know she stayed at Elena +Hall's house and I think Elena had an accident just before that and she +was--she stayed in bed most of the time. Marina was helping her out. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you had only seen Lee Oswald, up to this week that +Marina came to live with you, one time, is that correct? + +Mrs. FORD. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That was the Meller's luncheon party? + +Mrs. FORD. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised on the basis of any judgment you might +have made of Lee Oswald to learn that he had beaten his wife? + +Mrs. FORD. Just from seeing him once I would not have made--no; that +he has beaten his wife; no, I didn't think at that time. I did, when +she came in after I learned that he has beaten her, I was rather--I +remember the bruises on her face and that rather made signs to me that +he did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did it surprise you that he would have done this? + +Mrs. FORD. No; it did not surprise me. I just felt that young man as he +was, if he was--decided to go to Russia after living in a country like +the United States, I didn't feel he was very, what shall I say, how +would you say, a person's mind won't work at this time---- + +The CHAIRMAN. Unstable? + +Mrs. FORD. Unstable, that is how I felt. I felt a person like that, I +felt frankly could do anything. + +Representative FORD. Did she ever tell you that Lee Oswald was the +cause of these bruises on her face? + +Mrs. FORD. Well, she did tell me after she came to the house to stay +with me. + +Representative FORD. That is what I mean? + +Mrs. FORD. That is right. + +Representative FORD. The bruises you saw on her face at the house she +told you Lee Oswald was the cause? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes, that is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let's clarify that a little. Did Marina Oswald have any +bruises at the time she came to live in your house in November 1962? + +Mrs. FORD. No; that is right. But she stayed at Anna Meller's house +for a week and when she came to Anna Meller's house I heard there were +bruises at that time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Anna Meller tell you that? + +Mrs. FORD. Either Anna Meller or George Bouhe told me that. I don't +remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you yourself did see bruises on her face the first +time? + +Mrs. FORD. I did see the first time; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that Lee Oswald had given her those +bruises? + +Mrs. FORD. That is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. She told you that when she stayed with you? + +Mrs. FORD. That is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us the circumstances under which Marina left your +home in November of 1962, where she went and what happened? + +Mrs. FORD. Well, she stayed with me a week, and my husband came home +on Saturday, and we discussed with another friend of mine for Marina +to go to her house and stay there as long as she wanted, and I think +Sunday morning this friend of mine, Anna Ray, came with a station wagon +and picked all her things up, her playpen she had for baby, and diapers +and things, and took her to her house and I believe my husband was with +her, too, at that time and that is how she left. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, do you know how long she stayed with the Rays? + +Mrs. FORD. With the Rays. I think she just stayed there, she had had +dinner there, I believe she stayed one afternoon. I don't know how soon +Lee came there but he came soon over to the house, but Marina said he +cried and begged her to return, he would be nothing, if she didn't +return, he would be finished, that is what he was telling her, and she +said she just couldn't say, no to him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So she returned to Oswald at that time? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; she returned to Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk with the Mellers about their +experiences with Marina when she lived at their house for that time? + +Mrs. FORD. No; I don't remember, she did not discuss it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you remember or did you know where Lee Oswald was +living prior to the time that Marina came to Dallas? + +Mrs. FORD. No; I don't know where he lived at any time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where he was working at that time or if he +was working at all? + +Mrs. FORD. During the time they lived in Dallas, I believe, I don't +know exactly, though, either George Bouhe or Anna Meller's husband +found him a job in a printing shop, I think, or I believe it is +printing shop, somewhere in Oak Cliff, and that is why they had an +apartment there. I remember that is the reason because George Bouhe was +rather mad at Marina for taking an apartment in Oak Cliff because it +was too far for him to drive and help her when she needed help and the +baby, I think he was taking her to the dentist and taking the baby to a +doctor to help her in ways that she couldn't do herself. + +Representative FORD. Who was doing this driving? + +Mrs. FORD. I believe George Bouhe did this. He has the car. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where does Mr. Bouhe live? + +Mrs. FORD. He lives, well, I don't know his address now. I know where +he lives but I don't know the street number. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But it is not in the Oak Cliff Section of Dallas? + +Mrs. FORD. No; it is not. I think it would be in the east part of +Dallas. + +Mr. LIEBELER. During the time that Marina stayed with you, did she say +anything to you about Lee Oswald's political beliefs or his attitudes +concerning politics? + +Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't talk to me about that and I didn't ask her. + +Frankly, I didn't talk with Lee about that, I didn't feel the need of +it myself to discuss politics with him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss that subject with any of your friends? + +Mrs. FORD. Well, yes. They were telling me, those friends that went +to his apartment, were telling me, that they have seen books like +Karl Marx open in front of him, just lying there on the table, that he +didn't even hide it when someone came in, and then someone else said +there was a book laying there of How to Be a Spy, laying right open +there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who told you that? + +Mrs. FORD. I believe it was Lydia Dymitruk. + +Mr. LIEBELER. D-y-m-i-t-r-u-k. + +Do you remember anything about that particular conversation? + +Mrs. FORD. Well, she was telling me, she took, when the baby left my +house, she had a cold, and it was getting worse, and I believe soon +after she left Anna Ray, the baby began to have a fever, and Lydia, I +believe, I don't know how she got to go to her apartment, really, I +don't know the reason she went there; she went there and wanted to take +the baby to the doctor and she told me of an incident that says even +Marina was ashamed of Lee because when she took her to the hospital Lee +was lying about that he didn't have a job at the time, which Lydia knew +that he did have. He didn't want to pay for the services, and people at +the hospital was asking him how does he pay for the apartment and he +was telling them that, "My friends were helping me," and Marina just +said something in Russian that Lydia remembers, "What a liar," you +know, behind his back. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say that so he could hear it? + +Mrs. FORD. I think so, because she said it aloud. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And she said it in Russian? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; she did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In front of Lydia Dymitruk? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; that is right, and Lydia was rather mad about the whole +thing and she said she is not going to help them any more if they are +acting that way. + +The baby wasn't helped at the hospital. I think the hospital didn't +want to take the child because the father couldn't pay, that is what I +got, the father couldn't pay for it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Marina say anything adverse to Oswald in +his presence, did she run him down or make fun of him in public so far +as you know? + +Mrs. FORD. As far as I know, I don't, except the first time, the one +time, I would think when she said, "What a liar," in front of him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know of any other instance when she would have +done that? + +Mrs. FORD. I don't know of any other instance. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether she ever spoke of his political views +before other people or make fun of him? + +Mrs. FORD. No; I don't remember except lately I have been talking to +her about that and she said she thought of him being young, and she +thought she hoped it would pass with years, that he would mature, this +is what she was telling me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you whether or not she discussed politics +with him herself? Did she argue with him about anything? + +Mrs. FORD. She said she was arguing with him about that. Certainly, in +fact, he called her, she was typical American girl, that she is not +interested at all in politics, except in the material things that he +wasn't interested in. She said she wanted a house and a family and he +said, "All the American girls think that way" and he thought he married +a different sort of a girl, a Russian girl. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, think back on that week that Marina stayed with you. +Is there anything else that happened or is there anything that Marina +told you that you think we should know about and about which I haven't +already asked you? + +Mrs. FORD. I cannot think of it at the time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When was the next contact that you had with the Oswalds'? + +Mrs. FORD. It was right after Christmas before New Year's. I believe it +was the 28th of December, a Friday. I gave, I had, a party for all the +friends, and I invited a family by the name of De Mohrenschildt, wife +and husband, and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt called me up and asked me if she +couldn't bring Marina and her husband over because she was saying it +is a shame the way all their Russian friends have forsaken them during +that time and they had no place to go and the De Mohrenschildts were +the only ones helping them at the time, and I told her I didn't object +to it. So she brought them over with them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was Mr. Bouhe at the party? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; I think so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were Elena Hall and her husband there? + +Mrs. FORD. I don't remember them being at that party. I don't think so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were the Mellers there? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that De Mohrenschildt was there. + +Mrs. FORD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And the Oswalds. + +Mrs. FORD. That is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was there a gentleman by the name of Allen A. Jackson at +the party? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And his wife? + +Mrs. FORD. And his wife. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any conversations or observe any +conversations between Marina Oswald and Mr. Jackson? + +Mrs. FORD. Marina Oswald, no; I don't think so. I don't think Marina +spoke English at the time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were Mr. and Mrs. Charles Edward Harris at the party? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Mr. and Mrs. Harris about the party +afterward? + +Mrs. FORD. I might have. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she mention translating a conversation between Mr. +Jackson and Marina Oswald? + +Mrs. FORD. No; she did not mention it to me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't see her doing that? + +Mrs. FORD. No; I didn't see her doing that at the party. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversation with Lee Oswald at the +party that night? + +Mrs. FORD. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice anybody else talking to him? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; I did. I noticed a girl talking to him who was of +Japanese descent but I don't remember her name. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anything striking about that? + +Mrs. FORD. No; I think, the only thing it was that I think he talked +to her most of the time and wasn't making any conversation with anyone +else. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina comment on that to you? + +Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't. But I heard from somebody else that she did +comment. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who told you that? + +Mrs. FORD. I think George Bouhe again. He always spoke to everybody. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did Mr. Bouhe say about that? + +Mrs. FORD. Well, he said something that I asked Marina afterward and +she told me that it wasn't true. He said that Lee talked to that +Japanese girl like a--it is an expression in Russia to take a bath and +then beat themselves with the leaves from a tree, and the leaf would +stick to the body, in the wintertime, and so the expression from that, +like a leaf sticks to the hot body when you take a bath, you know. +Then I suppose Lee struck her as just not saying anything--and I asked +Marina and she said he did not do it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any talk at the party about Oswald's +experiences in Russia or his marriage to Marina? + +Mrs. FORD. During the party? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mrs. FORD. No; I didn't talk to him at all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't overhear anybody else talking about +Oswald's experiences in Russia? + +Mrs. FORD. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that the Oswalds came with De +Mohrensehildt. Did they go home with De Mohrensehildt? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; they did because Mrs. De Mohrensehildt stated that the +lady who stayed with Oswald's child had to leave at 12 o'clock and they +left before that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After the Oswalds left the party, was there any +discussion about the Oswalds that you can remember? + +Mrs. FORD. No; really not. I don't think they made a big impression on +that party on anybody. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you fix the date on which your party was held? + +Mrs. FORD. The 28th of December. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What year? + +Mrs. FORD. 1962. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any other party the next day or the day after +that? + +Mrs. FORD. There were other parties. I don't think that Marina and +her husband were present. I don't know if you would call it a party, +there was a sort of a get-together at my house afterward because some +people stayed over in town for a few days, I think that was the Rays, +and the Harrises, and a friend of my husband from Louisiana, Sullivans, +stayed there. But they hadn't met Oswald, they came much later after 12 +o'clock. So we sort of had a get-together. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This would have been the next day? + +Mrs. FORD. The next day. + +Mr. LIEBELER. On the 29th of December. + +Was Mr. Bouhe---- + +Mrs. FORD. No; Mr. Bouhe wasn't present at that time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any conversation at that time about Oswald? + +Mrs. FORD. I don't remember, 1 don't think so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that there was a party or open house at +Mr. Bouhe's house on the 29th? + +Mrs. FORD. If there was, I wasn't present, I didn't go. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was there a party at Meller's house? + +Mrs. FORD. There was a party or luncheon. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go? + +Mrs. FORD. No; I didn't go. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any conversation during this period of 3 or +4 days about Oswald, anybody speculating about Oswald or discussing his +experiences---- + +Mrs. FORD. No; I think---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. In Russia? + +Mrs. FORD. I think at that time everyone rather--George Bouhe said he +was not going to help them any more, he was through, since Marina, he +tried to help her very hard, and she did not hold her word about not +going back to him. So he said since she went back, so now it is her +problem. + +Well, he is sort of that type of man, he is trying to help hard and +if you are doing what he says otherwise he is not going to help, so +that was it. So it was rather, sort of Marina and her husband were +dropped at that time, nobody actually wanted to help, and I think what +they heard about Lydia Dymitruk was saying that he couldn't help those +people. I mean they were just sort of--he couldn't reach them. He was +lying in hospital and things, we sort of gave it up. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lydia make that remark at one of those parties or was +that at a previous time? + +Mrs. FORD. Oh, that was a previous time. As soon as she left to go back +to her husband, George Bouhe even took the Russian dictionary back to +him. He told her to give it back and he was just through with him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So far as you know Mr. Bouhe had no more contact with the +Oswalds after that? + +Mrs. FORD. No; I don't think so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversation with any of your friends +in Dallas or Fort Worth on the question of Oswald's ability to leave +Russia and come back to the United States and bring Marina with him? + +Mrs. FORD. We didn't speculate on that until really later, until now, +after the assassination that subject came up, and people asking why +they left so soon. He was telling me it took them a year, so I don't +know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any conversation prior to the assassination, +during this period in 1962, any speculation as to whether Oswald might +be an agent of any government? + +Mrs. FORD. No. I frankly didn't think he was capable of it. That was my +feeling on it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any conversations on that? + +Mrs. FORD. No. There were not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that Mr. Bouhe suggested at one time that +Oswald was a mental case? + +Mrs. FORD. Mr. Bouhe, he might have; yes, I think we all thought that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that Mr. Bouhe said that? + +Mrs. FORD. I don't remember particularly that he would say that. + +The CHAIRMAN. Did you say, "We all thought that"? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; we thought that, that he was rather mentally--you just +said the word before. + +The CHAIRMAN. Unstable? + +Mrs. FORD. Unstable. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Unstable. + +Why did you think that, Mrs. Ford? + +Mrs. FORD. In my own opinion, I just didn't think that a man as young +as he was could come to the conclusions just by rather experiences or +living a long time in America and I mean studying the whole economic +structures of different governments, and things that he would come to +the conclusion that is the best thing for him. I think he was just +rather too young for that. + +I thought he was just rather--something was rather wrong with the man. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You based this---- + +Representative FORD. In the conversation that Oswald had with this +Japanese lady at your party, did you overhear any of that conversation? + +Mrs. FORD. No; I did not. I did not have time, I was the hostess and I +just didn't get to talk to anyone. + +Representative FORD. Did you ever ask the Japanese lady what the gist +of the conversation was or what the content of the conversation was? + +Mrs. FORD. No; I never have. In fact, I have not seen her after that. +That was the first time she came to my house. I mean I have seen her +later on in the beauty shop but I have never talked to her about it. + +Representative FORD. Did she speak English? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; she speaks English well. + +Representative FORD. All right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At this get-together that you mentioned at your house on, +I think it was the 29th, after the party, the informal get-together, +the Rays were there, and the Sullivans, and Mr. and Mrs. Harris. + +Would it refresh your recollection if I suggested to you that some of +the people that were there at that party said the possibility of Oswald +being a Russian agent was discussed in detail at that party in that +group? + +Mrs. FORD. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember any of the discussion? + +Mrs. FORD. I don't remember any of the discussion. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything other than what you told us that led +you to believe that Oswald was unstable or a mental case? + +Mrs. FORD. Nothing, except that I was thinking about him myself beating +his wife. That would have been one reason. I don't think that any +stable man would do that, especially she appeared to me very sick sort +of a woman, not sick, but frail and fragile, I think any man who +strikes a woman who is incapable of striking back, I would think would +be unstable. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This Russian group that we have been discussing, Mr. +Bouhe and these other people, do they see each other regularly? Is +there sort of a Russian community in Dallas, would you say? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; there are about, I think, maybe four families in Fort +Worth and maybe half a dozen in Dallas or more than that, but that +mainly we see each other, and there is one Eastern Orthodox Church in +Russia where that is where we actually meet each other. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In Dallas, you mean, or Fort Worth? + +Mrs. FORD. Dallas. I am sorry. In Dallas, and we still observe our +Eastern Orthodox religion during the holidays and sometimes like +Christmas falls 13 days after the American Christmas so there is New +Year's sometimes we celebrate those. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How well do you know the De Mohrenschildts? + +Mrs. FORD. Well, I know George De Mohrenschildt the same, +approximately, I will say I was acquainted with him for approximately +14 years but I don't know him well. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned before that De Mohrenschildt was the only +member of the Russian community that kept on seeing the Oswalds and +trying to help them. + +Was there any discussion about that among your friends? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; George De Mohrenschildt is rather an odd ball, among +Russians anyway, so it was nothing unusual about him doing that. He was +always doing something unusual. He would even go to church with shorts +on, you know, this is something, he would do something that nobody else +would do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Shorts? + +Mrs. FORD. Shorts. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Short trousers? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any specific conversations about the +reasons as to why De Mohrenschildt continued to associate with the +Oswalds after the rest of you had given them up. + +Mrs. FORD. Well, I remember his wife was telling me like she felt it +was their duty now since everybody else dropped them and they needed +help. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any conversation with the Oswalds among +any of your friends as to whether or not Oswald went hunting in Russia +and had access to weapons? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; I think that George Bouhe was telling me that. He was +telling him that he was going hunting and he told him about killing +ducks or something of that type. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember that in any greater detail? + +Mrs. FORD. No; I don't remember it. I only remember that because of the +way he was saying, "ducks" in Russian, George was saying that he was +using sort of a word when you call for it, it is a small duck rather +than for ducks, he was saying that his Russian wasn't perfect. + +I mean in that conversation he was using, an example of he was saying, +when he would go hunting for ducks, instead of "utki" for ducks he +would say "utitschki" that would mean small ducks, and he was saying +that his Russian was imperfect. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is Oswald's Russian? + +Mrs. FORD. That is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What about Marina's ability to speak English at that +time, did she speak English at that time? + +Mrs. FORD. I don't think she did. She could speak a few words but I +don't think she did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did any of you attempt to teach her English? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; George Bouhe was attempting to teach her to write and +was giving her lessons. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us something about that? + +Mrs. FORD. Well, he was telling me that he had gotten her a dictionary +and he had--or some other book anyway and he was telling me that every +time he saw her, made an attempt to see her I don't know how he did +that but anyway he was giving her a lesson and she was supposed to have +completed it by the next time in writing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Bouhe tell you anything about Marina's ability to +speak English or write English? Did Marina learn as a result of that? + +Mrs. FORD. He said she was doing very well. I don't know if she learned +to speak but he said she was a good student. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lee Oswald ever object to this effort on Mr. Bouhe's +part? + +Mrs. FORD. Well, he was objecting to anyone of the Russians helping her. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Helping her learn English? + +Mrs. FORD. Not learning English, but I mean helping her about anything. +I don't know whether he was objecting to that. But we talked with Lee +about this, why he wasn't teaching her English and he wasn't speaking +to her and he said that he didn't want to forget Russian and he really +said, "If she wants," this is what Marina said the other day, that he +didn't actually object, but he thought if she could learn Russian just +by herself in any way she could, she could, but he is not going to help +her. He just didn't want to help her by speaking English. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mean English. + +Mrs. FORD. That is right. He is not going to talk English with her, he +wanted Russian. He wanted for the little girl to learn Russian and for +himself not to forget it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate, in other words that he wanted Marina to +speak Russian so that he could maintain his own ability in Russian? + +Mrs. FORD. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And he also wanted his children to learn to speak Russian? + +Mrs. FORD. That is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After this party on the 28th of December, what was your +next contact with either Lee or Marina Oswald? + +Mrs. FORD. After the 28th? I think after the assassination, I only +heard once about her, I just heard she went to New Orleans. Again a +friend, Lydia Dymitruk, was in the bakery and she said she saw Marina +coming in and she told her she thought Marina was pregnant and she told +her Marina was going to New Orleans. That is the only time I have heard +anything about them after that party. The next contact I had with her +was, I don't know the date but it was soon after the assassination when +I just felt sorry for Marina, I thought she was, I always felt she was +innocent, I thought she was a naive girl in a lot of ways and that is +why she got into a lot of problems and troubles. + +I just felt if she didn't have anybody there except the FBI and nobody +to speak in Russian, she didn't know how everybody felt, I would +think she would feel very badly, so I called Mrs. Paine who, I found +out after the assassination she was a friend of Marina's and I told +her that if she would have a contact with Marina, tell her that we +sympathize with her that she is in the position that she is, and to +call me or to let me--that I would like to talk with her. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when it was that you talked +to Mrs. Paine? + +Mrs. FORD. I think that was either the first part of December, I think +it must have been at least a week after the assassination. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In early December? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What happened after that? + +Mrs. FORD. Right after that, I think the next day Marina called me, and +she said the reason she called me was because Mrs. Paine told her that +I called, and let her know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember specifically that Marina told you that +she, Marina, had talked to Mrs. Paine? + +Mrs. FORD. Well, this, I don't know. I think that is what she did. In +fact, I think that Mrs. Paine told me she talked on the telephone with +Marina but I couldn't be positive about it. I know she wrote letters, +they wrote, I know Mrs. Paine wrote to Marina, and I couldn't exactly +say she talked to her on the telephone or how it was, either Marina +called Mrs. Paine or I don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You say you know Marina wrote Mrs. Paine a letter? Did +Marina tell you that she wrote Mrs. Paine during that period? + +Mrs. FORD. I don't remember. I know later Mrs. Paine kept calling me +and asked if I heard from Marina, because she kept writing to Marina +and Marina didn't answer, so she wanted to know if I talked to her, +that she was the reason she was calling me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mrs. Paine indicate to you after she called you +trying to find out from Marina, did she indicate to you she had or had +not heard from Marina since the assassination? + +Mrs. FORD. I believe she told me she talked on the telephone with her +right soon after, after I did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. During this first telephone conversation with Marina, was +there anything said about the events of the assassination in any way? + +Mrs. FORD. No; not at all, except that Marina was very surprised the +way people treated her. She was telling me that if it had happened in +Russia, she just would--she just knew she wouldn't be talking to me or +anybody else. She knew they would be sent to Siberia or shot right away +is what she said. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that what Marina said? + +Mrs. FORD. That is what she said. I told her that was the big +difference in Russian Government and the American Government. And +then she asked me for advice. Someone contacted her at the time from +a western paper and offered her $10,000 or something for the story +and she asked me if it was the right thing to do because she felt she +didn't want to make money on such a thing, a horrible thing as that, +and I advised her to take the money because I thought she would need it +for the children. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after that first--was there anything else you +discussed in that telephone conversation? + +Mrs. FORD. No; I think we talked mostly about that book deal, about the +offer she had. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After that first telephone conversation, what was the +next contact you had with Marina? + +Mrs. FORD. That was quite a long time after that when it was again Mrs. +Paine contacted me, and wanted to know if I could go and translate for +them for, we were saying about that yesterday, what is that union. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I did talk to you yesterday afternoon. + +Mrs. FORD. I have forgotten, I couldn't say because it is important. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was it the American Civil Liberties Union? + +Mrs. FORD. That is right, it was the American Civil Liberties Union and +I talked to my husband about that and he tried to find out; I told him +to find out all he can if it had anything to do with a Communist front +or something and if it was I didn't want to do anything about it, to be +connected with it, and he couldn't find anything out, but at the same +time I told him that I did not want to go with them but I didn't mind +translating. So I did translate and they wanted to know if Marina was +held incommunicado, and she answered. Mrs. Paine brought me that letter +to translate from English to Russian, and the man in charge, I don't +know his name, I have forgotten his name, you mentioned it yesterday, +if you say it I will remember it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let's come to that in a moment, let's develop the story +first. + +How did the question of the American Civil Liberties first come up, did +Mrs. Paine bring it up? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; that is right, because she tried to write letters to +Marina and she wouldn't answer and she thought she was held in sort of +a protective custody and couldn't see anybody. That is what she felt, +and she was rather imprisoned is what she thought. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So Mrs. Paine came to you with a letter that was written +in English, is that correct? + +Mrs. FORD. That is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And she asked you to translate into Russian? + +Mrs. FORD. That is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was that a letter from Mrs. Paine to Marina or a letter +from the Civil Liberties Union? + +Mrs. FORD. No; from Civil Liberties Union. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And so you translated that into Russian? + +Mrs. FORD. That is right, I translated it into Russian. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Up to that point was Mrs. Paine the only person who +discussed that subject with you. + +Mrs. FORD. That is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any further discussions with Mrs. Paine or +anybody else? + +Mrs. FORD. We tried to find out about the Union and my husband called +lawyers and friends of his who would know about it and called the +Secret Service and FBI and nobody would tell us anything about it. They +would send us somewhere else, refer it to someone else to find out, so +we don't find out. + +So, I just decided on my own not to go, just to translate. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well now, what is this about going with them, what did +Mrs. Paine ask you? + +Mrs. FORD. She thought that maybe since I knew Marina she would rather +confide in me more than just anyone like reporters or someone just from +the Union would go there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you declined to go with them? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when somebody else spoke to you +about this subject? + +Mrs. FORD. No, not at all. Just during that time I wanted to find out +if she was in prison. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina respond to the letter that you translated? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; they received an answer right the next day, and the man +from Richardson, who I think is the head of that Union in Dallas, came +to my house and asked me if I could translate it back into English. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that man's name? + +Mrs. FORD. No; if you mention it I would know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would it refresh your recollection if I mentioned the +name of Gregg Olds? + +Mrs. FORD. That is right; yes, that is his name. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did Mr. Olds say to you when he came to see you? + +Mrs. FORD. He just brought the letter and he was rather standing and +he wasn't talking very much. He was kind of a quiet person, I think. +I took the letter--he thought I could just sit there and do it real +fast in front of him, but I had to take it into a room and sort of +concentrate in the living room and translated and giving it to him. + +He said, "Thank you," and he left. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when this was? + +Mrs. FORD. No; I cannot say. Let's see. I think it was sometime before +Christmas, because after that I sent her a Christmas card. + +No, wait a minute, I just can't say if it was before Christmas or +afterward, I don't remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember if it was before or after Marina +testified before this Commission? + +Mrs. FORD. That was before the Warren Commission. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It was before the Warren Commission? + +Mrs. FORD. That is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Marina again on the telephone after this +first time? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; I talked to her on the telephone because through my +husband's brother who is a professor in one of the universities in +California, he had a friend by the name of Isaac Levine who does write, +who speaks Russian and writes rather--he wrote a book of on the mind of +the assassin, Trotsky's story. He wanted to contact me and to find out +if Marina had signed a contract on writing a book. So I told him that +I would call the managers, since there was published in the newspaper +at that time, and to find out if they did, and I did call. I called her +lawyer and I asked if she signed for a book, and I called Levine long +distance and told him she did not have a contract signed. Then he told +me that he would like--he wanted to know if he could arrange to see +Marina, and I told him that I would ask the manager and he told me to +contact, for Levine to contact, the attorney and the manager. I saw +later on they have somehow gotten together. I think he wrote to them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when Marina came to your house to +visit? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; she brought a letter she wanted me to translate. It was +after this, after I had a contact about the writer Marina called me, +this is the first time, the first time after the assassination that she +called me on the telephone and we talked about that and I told her that +the man had contacted me and he speaks Russian. I thought it would be +a good opportunity for her to write if she wanted to since she could +communicate easily with a writer that speaks Russian. I read his book +that he sent me, and he makes real sense. I invited her to come out +to dinner and, of course, I didn't expect that there would be a whole +company with her. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she come out? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; they did, they came out, the Secret Service and the +manager were there and everybody so I cooked a Russian dinner. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when that was? + +Mrs. FORD. It was shortly before the Commission, maybe about 2 weeks +before the Commission. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Late in January sometime? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. During that time that Marina was there did you have any +discussion with her about the events of the assassination or anything +relating to that? + +Mrs. FORD. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she discuss with you her possible testimony before +this Commission? + +Mrs. FORD. No, not during that time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina come back to your house again before she came +to testify before the Commission? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes, she was once more at my house. During the first time +her manager brought a letter that she wanted to bring to the Governor +about how she feels about Ruby's being executed. She told me she didn't +want, she didn't feel, if she could help she didn't want to have the +killing of a dead man on her conscience, on her mind. She wanted me to +translate that letter and I did translate it. + +And I left it at home and later on they came by, I told Mr. Martin +that I would come by his house and bring the letter to her after I +translated. + +He said, "If you wanted to we can come back to your house like we did +before." And they did and they picked up the letter. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any copy of that letter? + +Mrs. FORD. I think maybe I have a copy of it, of my translation. But I +am not positive. I know I put it in a desk. + +Representative FORD. This was a letter from whom to whom? + +Mrs. FORD. From Marina to, I will say they did--I think it was advised +to her to write it to the Governor, to Governor Connally. + +Representative FORD. To Governor Connally? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. To the present Governor of Texas, that is the Governor of +Texas? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You said that Marina said to you she did not want to have +another death on her conscience? + +Mrs. FORD. That is right. She feels like, she told me she feels +strongly about it, that people shouldn't kill one another, if there is +no war. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she use the words as you remember it, the words "on +her conscience"? + +Mrs. FORD. No; I don't remember that word really but I just feel this +was, she would feel very badly if that would happen. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she seem to feel that she had some responsibility for +these things? + +Mrs. FORD. What do you mean by that? I mean how, responsibility in what +way? + +Mr. LIEBELER. That she was in anyway a cause of any of these deaths +herself? + +Mrs. FORD. No; I wouldn't think she feels this way, no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about the conversations at the second meeting. +Were there any conversations at that time about her testimony before +the Commission or about the assassination? + +Mrs. FORD. I believe she mentioned she was going to Washington at that +time. She knew about going, I believe Martin said that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But she didn't talk about her testimony? + +Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't, not at all she didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to anybody else about her testimony before +the Commission? + +Mrs. FORD. I don't know, I don't think so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Martin say anything about it? + +Mrs. FORD. No; I don't remember, I don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When was the next time that you saw Marina? + +Mrs. FORD. After she came back from Washington. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she come to your house then? + +Mrs. FORD. No; she did not. Her lawyer, in fact Mr. Martin, called me +and told me she is staying at her brother-in-law's, and that he wanted +to break the partnership with her, and he asked me if I could go with +her attorney and translate for her the conditions of the break, the +breaking of the contract, and I agreed to go with them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. To Robert Oswald? + +Mrs. FORD. To Robert Oswald's house; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time after that when Marina came to live +with you in your house? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; when I came there, Marina told me she couldn't stay +another day, she thought, in Robert's house. It was such a small house +and small children and she just didn't like to stay in there at all, +and so I told her, "Well, you could come and stay at my place if you +wanted to," and she said she would love to do that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After Marina moved in with you, did you talk to her +about her testimony before the Commission, that she gave before the +Commission? + +Mrs. FORD. No; we never talked about what she did. She told me she had +it, written something. She said something maybe that someone mentioned +in the Commission that that was rather good for a novel but not for the +testimony. + +She said, well, she had written the way she remembers her past, those +are the words she made. + +Mr. LIEBELER. She was referring to a statement she had written. + +Mrs. FORD. She had written, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she show it to you? + +Mrs. FORD. No; I have never seen it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. During the time that Marina stayed with you or at any +other time, did she say anything to you about this incident where Mr. +Oswald was allegedly going to attack Mr. Nixon? + +Mrs. FORD. No; I hadn't learned about that until later. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss it with Marina? + +Mrs. FORD. Somehow she didn't feel, she didn't want to discuss it very +much, she felt badly that it came out, I suppose or something. She +didn't want it to. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But she did talk to you about it? + +Mrs. FORD. She talked to me because I had to translate it to her, +the discussion with her lawyer, and he, I think, the FBI were at the +lawyer's office while they went to talk to her about the subject, and I +had to translate what she was telling the lawyer about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with her about this Nixon +affair at a time when the FBI was not present? + +Mrs. FORD. I think going home, I just maybe, I don't know what I asked +her. She said the same thing actually what she said in the office, that +she held him in the bathroom and I asked her how was it finished, and +she said, "I talked him out of it," and he said, "If you will keep me +in the bathroom, just give me something to read." She didn't talk very +much about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask her how she could lock Lee in the bathroom? + +Mrs. FORD. No; it never occurred to me to ask her and I did not ask her. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss this question with anybody else how she +could lock anybody in the bathroom? + +Mrs. FORD. Not until yesterday with my husband, how she could do it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything else that Marina told you about this +Nixon affair that you can remember now? + +Did she tell you when it happened? + +Mrs. FORD. No; she told me only that, that she said she mixed up dates. +She thought it was one month and it was, supposedly happened, another +month and she said that a lot of times she doesn't remember exactly the +month. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you anything about the General Walker affair? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; she told me something about that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was that? + +Mrs. FORD. She said in the first place, people are saying that maybe +she knew ahead of time and she said she did not. Lee told her after it +had happened, after he had shot, and he told her, "Well, I just tried +to shoot Walker." She said she was rather angry and she told him if he +ever does that again, she said, "Don't ever do that again," she was +rather disgusted--that he shouldn't do such a thing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you about any note that he had written in +connection with the attack on General Walker? + +Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you whether the Walker incident occurred +before or after the Nixon incident? + +Mrs. FORD. I don't know. She never said it to me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she discuss with you during this period that she had +been living in your house any of the details of the assassination? + +Mrs. FORD. I, frankly, just didn't feel like asking her questions, I +really felt like I just wanted to help her, that is all. She never +brought the subject up herself. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say anything about what happened on Thursday +night when Lee Oswald came back from Irving to Dallas? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; she said that was not long ago, and she somehow found +out someone, I think Robert, told her there was some evidence that +someone saw a boy running across--a boy saw someone running across +the yard or something, and he thought maybe there was some other man +involved. And she began to say, "Well, if Lee didn't kill the President +why did he come home on Thursday and why did he leave his ring at home +and why was the gun taken from the garage." I mean she was putting that +together, she was making me believe that Lee was doing it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. She was considering at that time the possibility that Lee +Oswald was not? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Guilty of this? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; Robert, I believe, was telling her that, that there +was a possibility that somebody else did the crime and she was talking +about that to me, and that is when she said about why would he come +back on Thursday when he never did that before, and also that he would +leave a ring that was to her it would mean something that he didn't +want--he didn't feel like he would return or something. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with Marina her feeling as to Lee +Oswald's guilt or innocence in this matter? + +Mrs. FORD. Well, she feels that--no, I don't remember her discussing +it. I think she asked him after she saw him after the assassination he +told her no, he did not kill anybody. He told her that. But I think her +own conclusion is that he did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussions with her as to whether Lee +Oswald was angry with President Kennedy for any reason? + +Mrs. FORD. No; she told me that he actually never did say anything bad +about Kennedy. He didn't like General Walker because he compared him +rather with Hitler in some way. He said, he was telling her, she was +asking him why would he kill a man like that, I mean that he should not +kill anybody. He said, he told her, well, if somebody killed Hitler +ahead of time that wouldn't have happened in Germany and he says he +felt like it was his duty to get rid of men where he was a Fascist, +speaking about General Walker. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina say anything about Lee's attitude toward +Governor Connally? + +Mrs. FORD. No; she never discussed that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Marina about Marina's feelings toward +Mrs. Paine? + +Mrs. FORD. Lately, I have been talking to her about that, and Mrs. +Paine, I know, tried to contact her and asked Marina why she did not +want to write to her, because I know that she had written to her often. +Somehow she doesn't like Mrs. Paine and then she said she feels that +Martin told her that Mrs. Paine was making money on her articles about +Marina, and she don't like that. + +I got, even lately, Mrs. Paine called me up, and I believe it was only +a pretense because she knew that I had a contact with Marina and she +wanted to see Marina. She came to my house and told me she wanted for +me to read in Russian very slowly that she could follow me for her +students. She is teaching Russian to some students in private school +and that she could record it and then listen to it, and she said she +would pay me for the services, and at the time, the same time. + +So, I had Marina that evening, I know she would want to see her, so I +invited Marina to my house and at the time Mrs. Paine was coming. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You told her Mrs. Paine was coming? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; I told her Mrs. Paine was coming and she only said she +didn't want Mrs. Paine for her to know the telephone number or the +house she lives in. She said she would come in all the time and she +didn't exactly like her. She didn't want to see her at her house, not +now anyway, she said. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina and Mrs. Paine meet this evening at your house? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; they did, they talked. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did they say to each other? + +Mrs. FORD. Well, frankly, I got an idea that Mrs. Paine came there +to convince Marina to write a book with Mr. Levine who is rather +persistent about it at the moment. He wants to start writing a book +before Marina finishes with her lawyer and attorney--and her manager. +She knows and she is advised by her attorney now not to do it before it +is finished, and I think Mrs. Paine tried to talk her into it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. They didn't discuss anything about the assassination or +Mrs. Oswald's testimony before the Commission? + +Mrs. FORD. No; I did not hear it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So far as you heard. + +Did Marina ever tell you anything about the trip to Mexico that Lee +Oswald took? + +Mrs. FORD. Well, let's see. I think she was saying something about +it that she did not mention to the FBI but she mentioned it to the +Commission. She did say that. And that the FBI wanted to talk with her, +that was the reason they wanted to come back again and talk with her. +They came to my house quite often during the time she stayed at my +house and talked with her, and she said that was the subject, and they +asked her why she did not say it to start with, and she said well, she +had begun to get tired of the FBI and she didn't like to talk with them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI had been interviewing her while she stayed at +your place? + +Mrs. FORD. That is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been present at any of those interviews? + +Mrs. FORD. No; unless they needed--no; I was not present. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were present at an FBI interview at Mr. McKenzie's +office at one time? + +Mrs. FORD. At Mr. McKenzie's office, that is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was there a translator present when the FBI interviewed +Marina? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; there is at the moment. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know his name? + +Mrs. FORD. Mr. Gopadze. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Has Marina discussed with you the questions that the FBI +has been asking her? + +Mrs. FORD. No; except this particular Mexican trip. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you anything about the details of that trip? + +Mrs. FORD. On that trip--she did not go into details of the trip; but +certain things about--she asked Lee to bring her a bracelet and he +didn't, things like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say anything about a desire that Lee Oswald had +to go to Cuba? + +Mrs. FORD. Well, this is something that she talked about but I don't +remember how--she said he wanted to actually go to Cuba. He wanted to +get a visa to go to Russia but he would go to Russia by the way of +Cuba, and she thought that he would stay in Cuba and not go to Russia. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you what she was supposed to do when +Oswald was in Cuba. + +Mrs. FORD. Frankly, I don't know. I know that subject was discussed one +time but I either had to go diaper the baby or something. I just cannot +say--I know she tried to talk on this subject to Mr. Levine once and +she explained it. It was a rather complicated sort of a thing and I +cannot explain it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she express any fears that Oswald was going to leave +her and go to Cuba and abandon her. + +Mrs. FORD. There was a possibility--something she would stay here or +something, and for a while, and we were asking her well, how did she +intend to live while he was gone, and she thought, well, she said, +well, Lee said, "You have a lot of Russian friends and they will help +you," while he is not here, that was the conversation. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever speak of any plans that Oswald had to +hijack an airplane and go to Cuba? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; she said something like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did she say? + +Mrs. FORD. Well, that was again, I believe she was discussing with +Mr. Levine at the time about this Cuba and this airplane. It is again +complicated, I don't think I can say it to make sense, somehow that he +had to go, had to have enough gasoline or something to go there, not to +make a stop anywhere. I could not say it to make any sense. I know she +was talking about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to Robert Oswald about the +assassination? + +Mrs. FORD. No; we we never discussed it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Robert Oswald never expressed to you any thoughts that he +had on Lee Oswald's guilt or innocence? + +Mrs. FORD. I understand he didn't like the cover of Life magazine and I +was rather surprised because it was in my mind like it seems there is +no question. Nobody knows very sure but I feel like it was Lee that did +it. And he was rather angry about the statement there that it was a gun +with which the President was killed, and he was rather angry about that +cover, and that is why I thought that maybe he didn't believe that Lee +killed him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is the only discussion you had with Robert Oswald? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; that is the only one, that is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked to Marina about any rifle practice that +Lee Oswald may have engaged in? + +Mrs. FORD. I didn't discuss it with him but she said that she didn't +think that he went to a rifle practice. She told me that about a lot of +things that people would say that it was not true, she thought that she +didn't think it was true about Lee being at practice. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In Grand Prairie you are referring to? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; that is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In Grand Prairie? + +Mrs. FORD. That is right. She didn't think he was doing that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say anything about him practicing with the rifle +any place else? + +Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she mention that he had practiced with the rifle at +Love Field? + +Mrs. FORD. She didn't say anything. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever say anything to you that indicated she +wanted to go back to Russia? + +You said before that she told Lee Oswald that if he wanted to go back +to Russia he could go but she wasn't going to go. + +But did she ever indicate to you at any time she wanted to go back to +Russia? + +Mrs. FORD. She did not. Again the first call after the assassination +she asked me, she said, "You know I have a visa, a pending visa, to go +to Russia and if they will send it to me, I may have to go." I sort of +answered her, I am pretty sure they wouldn't send her a visa now so she +doesn't have to worry about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yesterday afternoon we discussed some of these things, +did we not? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned the fact that Marina Oswald had told you +that at one time she was thinking about committing suicide? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; she mentioned that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about that. + +Mrs. FORD. She said she didn't want to have it published anywhere, she +is rather ashamed of it. But there was a time after all the--I think +it was before she went to New Orleans and before she lived at Paine's +house, that there was a time that she didn't have any friends, all the +Russian friends left her, I believe De Mohrenschildts were gone during +that time, and that Lee was treating her rather badly at the time and +she just felt like she had no way out. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you anything other than that? Did she tell +you she actually tried to commit suicide or was it something she was +thinking of? + +Mrs. FORD. She didn't tell me the particulars but somehow Lee found out +what was on her mind because he had beaten her again and told her only +crazy people would consider doing a thing like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. She said Lee had found out she had thought of committing +suicide? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever tell you how he found out? + +Mrs. FORD. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she indicate to you in any way that she had ever +tried to do this? + +Mrs. FORD. Well, she didn't tell me the particulars of it, I didn't +want to, I mean I just didn't, ask her for all the details about it. +But she was saying she was thinking about doing it at a certain time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I don't want to press you too hard about it but +there is quite a difference between thinking about doing it and +actually doing it. + +The CHAIRMAN. She didn't hear it, she didn't hear it, did she? + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is right. + +The CHAIRMAN. All right, that is enough. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you write to Marina at any time after the +assassination? + +Mrs. FORD. Did I write to her? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mrs. FORD. I sent her a Christmas card; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Any other letters? + +Mrs. FORD. No; no letters. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How many times have you been interviewed by the FBI, do +you remember? + +Mrs. FORD. FBI maybe twice. The first time, soon after the +assassination; the same day that Lee Oswald was shot. + +Actually we heard by radio, friends of ours had called us, anyone who +knew Lee Oswald was supposed to come out and say it and call the FBI or +the police. So we called the FBI and we said we did know and we came to +the office ourselves and to talk about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been interviewed by the Secret Service? + +Mrs. FORD. No; I don't think so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In our conversation yesterday we discussed your testimony +and reviewed these matters. Is there anything you can remember that we +discussed at that time that we have not talked about here now? + +Mrs. FORD. I don't remember. I don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is there any other information that you have that you +think the Commission would like to know about that we don't have +relating to the assassination? + +Mrs. FORD. I don't think there is anything of importance that you don't +know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any papers relating to these matters other +than I think you mentioned a copy of the letter that you translated for +the American Civil Liberties Union, other than that paper, do you have +any papers that might relate to these questions I asked you? + +Mrs. FORD. No; I might have a copy of the letter that Marina was +writing for---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. To Governor Connally? + +Mrs. FORD. To Governor Connally, and it is just rather a translation in +my own handwriting. + +Mr. LIEBELER. On this point about the rifle practice, did Marina tell +you simply that he did not practice at the range at Grand Prairie or he +did not practice at any place with the rifle? + +Mrs. FORD. I think she was talking about the particular range. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Particularly Grand Prairie? + +Mrs. FORD. That is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And she didn't say anything about any other practice? + +Mrs. FORD. She was telling me that people were--supposedly saw him in +San Antonio and she knew for sure he wasn't there, and then she was +saying they saw him at Grand Prairie practicing and she thought that he +wasn't there, and then again in Ruby's place and she knew sure that Lee +would never go to a place like that, things like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have no further questions. + +The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, do you have some questions for Mrs. +Ford? + +Representative FORD. Mr. Chief Justice, I have one or two. + +The CHAIRMAN. Proceed, please. + +Representative FORD. Did Marina Oswald ever tell you about her +schooling in Russia? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; she did. I think that would be a junior college here. +She would finish 7 or 8 years, I don't know exactly, and then I think +it is 4 years in a junior college which would make her in my opinion an +assistant pharmacist. + +Representative FORD. In other words, she went to the regular---- + +Mrs. FORD. School, yes. + +Representative FORD. Primary school? + +Mrs. FORD. That is right. + +Representative FORD. Following that she went on to a secondary school. + +Mrs. FORD. You don't have to finish primary school. Russian High School +is 10 years, and if you want to specialize in some sort of assistant or +technical work you would finish 7 or 8 years and then you would go 4 +years after that, it is a finishing technical school, whether you would +call it, where you would actually finish high school and at the same +time you acquire some sort of a profession or technician, assistant to +engineer or in this case assistant to a pharmacist. + +Representative FORD. But those were the only schools that she has ever +indicated to you that she attended? + +Mrs. FORD. I think so, that is right. + +Representative FORD. Did she ever indicate to you the participation +that she had in the Komsomol. + +Mrs. FORD. She said that she did join it and then she was kicked out or +something. + +Representative FORD. Did she ever give you any reason why she was +kicked out? + +Mrs. FORD. She told me that one time but I don't--I have forgotten the +reason, I really don't remember. + +Representative FORD. Was it an ordinary thing for a person to be kicked +out of the Komsomol, so far as you know? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; I believe you have to be the sort, if you join it you +have to perform your duty, you have to go the meetings and be sort of +a leader in the community or in school or take on their work so if you +don't do that, I think they just consider you not being a good young +Komsomol. They wouldn't keep you there. + +Representative FORD. Did Marina ever tell you that she did or didn't +join the Communist Party in the Soviet Union? + +Mrs. FORD. She couldn't join it. + +Representative FORD. Why couldn't she join it? + +Mrs. FORD. Well, not from my own experience but from what I know about +it, I think you have to be over 20 years and you have to be 5 years, +you have a 5-year waiting period until they check your background and +see if you are good enough person to get by their standards to join the +Party. + +Representative FORD. Did Marina ever discuss with you any schools or +training programs that Lee participated in while he was in the Soviet +Union? + +Mrs. FORD. No; she never has said anything of that sort. I think she +said one time that they wanted to send him to a school which would give +him a profession but it had nothing to do with military or anything +like that but somehow he didn't go there. But I have forgotten what he +had to be so he was just working regular labor in the factory. + +Representative FORD. You don't recall anything, any details? + +Mrs. FORD. I don't recall any details of the school. + +Representative FORD. You don't recall any of the details of the kind of +school? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; but it was some sort of a civilian, it had nothing to +do with military or espionage or anything like that that I remember. + +Representative FORD. At the time that Marina and June stayed with you +and your husband in October or November of 1962, did Lee Oswald visit +her at your home? + +Mrs. FORD. No. He did not. + +Representative FORD. He called her? + +Mrs. FORD. He called on the telephone. + +Representative FORD. Did anyone else visit her while she was staying at +your home on this occasion? + +Mrs. FORD. On this occasion, I think the only person who visited was +Anna Ray to whom she was to go later after she stayed with me. + +Representative FORD. Excuse me, I didn't hear you. + +Mrs. FORD. Anna Ray, that is another Russian-born person to whom Marina +would go from my house, she came to visit her. + +Representative FORD. The individual who kept Marina after she left you? + +Mrs. FORD. That is right, that is correct. + +Representative FORD. And his name was what? + +Mrs. FORD. Her name. + +Representative FORD. What is the name? + +Mrs. FORD. Anna Ray. + +Representative FORD. That is the only person who visited Marina during +this period? + +Mrs. FORD. At my house; yes. + +Representative FORD. I would like to clarify the time and the +circumstances of this discussion you had with Marina about the Nixon +affair. + +Mrs. FORD. Yes. + +Representative FORD. You had gone to Mr. McKenzie's office with Marina? + +Mrs. FORD. That is right. I had gone translating for her; yes. + +Representative FORD. You were in Mr. McKenzie's office? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes. + +Representative FORD. With Marina. Who else was there? + +Mrs. FORD. And at that time she had a date with the FBI, and we were +doing, I was translating some legal work for her about dismissing her +old attorney and manager and the FBI called me to come later after we +finished with that, and they told Marina why they wanted to talk with +her, and McKenzie took us in that other office and he asked Marina +about that, and told her that that is what she had to talk about, and +she was really angry. She said the thought Robert had said, I mean she +did not tell anybody about it, and she didn't want to talk about it, +and now she has to talk about it to the FBI since Robert mentioned it. + +Representative FORD. In this meeting there was Mr. McKenzie? + +Mrs. FORD. That is right. Mr. McKenzie, Marina and I. + +Representative FORD. Just the three of you? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes. + +Representative FORD. In a room in Mr. McKenzie's office? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; in one of the rooms in his office. + +Representative FORD. And Mr. McKenzie said what? + +Mrs. FORD. Oh, I think that maybe--frankly, I don't know what he was +telling her. + +Representative FORD. Was this meeting only about the Nixon affair? + +Mrs. FORD. I am very sorry, but I think that during that time when +we were talking about that it was when he was talking about General +Walker, that he was--it was not about Nixon that they talked about. + +Representative FORD. This meeting with Mr. McKenzie, when Marina and +you were discussing matters---- + +Mrs. FORD. That was about General Walker. + +I think Mr. McKenzie didn't know what they would talk about but he +advised her "They will ask you if there were two guns, you tell them +there was one gun that was used," he told her. + +Representative FORD. One gun used where? + +Mrs. FORD. For Walker, I mean the same one they had at the house or +something, frankly this is what I had---- + +Representative FORD. I think you just said at the outset of this +meeting the prime purpose or the principal purpose was to discuss the +Walker affair. + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; that is right. + +Representative FORD. How did the Nixon affair come up? + +Mrs. FORD. I just can't recollect how. + +Representative FORD. Did McKenzie raise the question or did Marina +raise it? + +Mrs. FORD. How it was raised, I didn't get to discuss it with her about +the particulars about it, except one time in the car, I don't remember +how it came up and I was asking well how did that happen, and she was +rather hesitating to talk about it, but she said, "Well, I locked him +in the bathroom, and he was screaming or something, he was wanting to +get out", and she tried to talk him out of it and he said, "if you are +going to keep me in here just let me have a book to read", and I told +her how did he get out later, she said, "Well, he rather cooled off and +I talked him out of it." + +Representative FORD. You say this conversation took place in the car? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes; this conversation right now took place in the car but I +don't know how it got started, I have forgotten. + +Representative FORD. When you say it took place in the car, was it in +the car going from Mr. McKenzie's to your home? + +Mrs. FORD. That is right, to my home. She was staying at my place at +this time. + +Representative FORD. Did she talk rather freely about this Nixon---- + +Mrs. FORD. She didn't talk about it freely, I thought she was rather +hesitant about going into particulars. + +Representative FORD. Did she ever indicate why she had not discussed +this incident with anybody, including the Commission? + +Mrs. FORD. Well, right during that time, just before that, in the +office, Mr. McKenzie, and I told her before that, "if you know anything +that I think that would help either the Commission or the FBI I thought +it my duty to tell them," and I told her that if she doesn't want me to +say to anybody just don't talk to me about it, that is what I told her. + +But because and maybe that is why she was hesitating to talk to me, +Mr. McKenzie told it to her and had a written statement to her, too, +if he feels there is anything he will have to say he will say it in +connection with the President. + +So it was said right before that, and I feel maybe that is why she was +hesitating to talk to me. + +Representative FORD. That is all. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Ford, you are an American citizen now, aren't you? + +Mrs. FORD. Yes. + +The CHAIRMAN. How did you acquire it, by marriage to your first soldier +husband? + +Mrs. FORD. No. I had to apply for it. + +The CHAIRMAN. Where were you naturalized? + +Mrs. FORD. In Dallas, Tex. + +The CHAIRMAN. In the Federal court? + +Mrs. FORD. That is correct. + +The CHAIRMAN. When was that about? + +Mrs. FORD. I have it on my bracelet, so I will give you the correct +time, I got it in 1952. + +The CHAIRMAN. In 1952? + +Mrs. FORD. This I got on "This is Your Life". I was on "This is Your +Life". + +Representative FORD. Mr. Chairman, I have one or two more questions. + +The CHAIRMAN. Go right ahead. + +Representative FORD. I wish you could clarify, if you can, the comment +you made about Marina mentioning two guns. + +Mrs. FORD. She did not mention two guns ever to me or anything like +that. But I don't know how or why he advised her to say that at all, I +don't know, it was not clear to me. + +Representative FORD. When you say he, was that Mr. McKenzie? + +Mrs. FORD. That is right, because the only reason--the only thing I +remember about Marina was saying that Lee had laughed about the attempt +to kill General Walker, that he said that they were even too stupid +to find out what gun was used to kill him because it was written up a +different type of gun was used other than the one really used by Lee. + +Representative FORD. Marina said that? + +Mrs. FORD. That is right. Lee had commented on that they were not even +smart enough to identify the gun by a bullet. + +Representative FORD. When did Marina say Lee said that? + +Mrs. FORD. Well, soon after he--maybe that evening or the next day but +I mean after he had attempted to shoot the General. + +Representative FORD. After he had attempted to shoot General Walker? + +Mrs. FORD. That is right. And the bullet was found in the room and I +suppose by the bullet they had tried to identify the gun or whatever he +used to shoot him and it was identified wrong. + +It was not, I don't know what kind of gun he used, frankly, I don't +know, but he said, he just made a comment, they weren't even smart +enough to identify the gun by the bullet. + +Representative FORD. Lee said that to Marina? + +Mrs. FORD. To Marina, that is right. + +Representative FORD. Right after the incident? + +Mrs. FORD. Right after the incident, that is correct. + +Representative FORD. And Marina told Mr. McKenzie that? + +Mrs. FORD. I don't know. + +Representative FORD. You don't know? + +Mrs. FORD. But I think right after that it was in the papers that +a different type of gun was used, and to shoot the President was +different again, there were supposedly two guns, you see, so maybe that +is why he advised her, that he had only one gun. I really don't know +how this came out. + +The CHAIRMAN. That is all. Thank you very much for coming, you have +been very helpful. + +Mrs. FORD. I hope so. I frankly wish I had questioned her more but I +didn't feel it was my duty, but I wanted to tell you what she said to +me. + +The CHAIRMAN. We will take a short recess. + +(Short recess.) + + +TESTIMONY OF DECLAN P. FORD + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Ford, you were given a copy of this statement were +you? + +Mr. FORD. Yes, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. As to the purpose so you understand what we are doing +here today? + +Mr. FORD. Yes, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. Will you please rise. Do you solemnly swear the testimony +you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and +nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. FORD. I do. + +The CHAIRMAN. Be seated please and Mr. Liebeler will ask the questions. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Will you state your name, sir? + +Mr. FORD. Declan P. Ford. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live? + +Mr. FORD. Dallas, Tex. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is your employment? + +Mr. FORD. I am a consulting geologist. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you independently employed? + +Mr. FORD. Yes; I am self-employed. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you give us a brief statement of your educational +background? + +Mr. FORD. I was graduated from the University of California at Los +Angeles in 1948, with a Bachelor of Arts degree in Geology, and was +first employed by Tidewater Associated Oil Co. as a geologist, later +with the Continental Oil Co. as a geologist, and then later with +DeGollyer McNaughton, a consulting firm in Dallas, Tex., until 1962, +October. I went into business for myself as a consulting geologist. All +this time has been in exploration, development of oil and gas fields +both in the United States and foreign countries. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been employed in and about the Fort Worth and +Dallas area ever since you graduated from college? + +Mr. FORD. No; I have only been in the Dallas area since January 1960. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your wife's name is Katherine Ford? + +Mr. FORD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When were you married? + +Mr. FORD. We were married July 1960. July 2. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you married at any time prior to that? + +Mr. FORD. No; I was not. + +The CHAIRMAN. '62, did you say? + +Mr. FORD. 1960. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you acquainted with Jack Ruby? + +Mr. FORD. No; I am not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any connection between Lee Oswald and Jack +Ruby? + +Mr. FORD. No; I don't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Directly or indirectly? + +Mr. FORD. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. John M. Grizzaffi? + +Mr. FORD. Yes; I knew him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not he is a friend or associate of +Jack Ruby's? + +Mr. FORD. I don't know. I have heard that he knows Jack Ruby, I don't +know how well he knows him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Mr. Grizzaffi had any contact with +the Oswalds or knew them? + +Mr. FORD. None that I knew of. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first meet the Oswalds? + +Mr. FORD. In 1962, and I think it was in August of 1962, I am not sure +of the exact date. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances of the meeting? + +Mr. FORD. I was a guest at the house of some friends, the Mellers, and +the Oswalds had been there for lunch, and we came over after lunch to +have cocktails and to meet Lee and Marina Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there at that time? + +Mr. FORD. Mr. Meller and his wife, Anna Meller, George Bouhe, my wife +and myself, Marina and Lee Oswald, and I can't remember for sure if +anybody else. It seems to me there was somebody else there but I can't +remember who it was. Someone else may have come in later or something +like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you mention George Bouhe as being there? + +Mr. FORD. Yes; George Bouhe was there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned him? + +Mr. FORD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who invited you to that luncheon? + +Mr. FORD. Mrs. Meller. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Had you heard of the Oswalds prior to that time? + +Mr. FORD. Yes; I had. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How? + +Mr. FORD. I first heard of them, I think, from either George Bouhe or +maybe from Max Clark who lives in Fort Worth but I think it was George +Bouhe. He had mentioned the name of Lee Oswald and briefly described +his history, his story of his going to Russia, attempting to give +up his American citizenship, and later returning from Russia with a +Russian wife and child, and living in Fort Worth, and we were, my wife +is Russian and we were interested in meeting her. George Bouhe, I +think, at the time was attempting to help Lee Oswald find employment. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you say "her" in that sentence you are referring to +Mrs. Marina Oswald? + +Mr. FORD. Yes; Marina Oswald. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the reason why basically you went to the lunch at +the Mellers to meet Lee and Marina Oswald? + +Mr. FORD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any conversation with the Oswalds at that time? + +Mr. FORD. There was, most of the conversation was in Russian which +I don't understand. I had very little conversation with Lee himself +because he spoke Russian most of the time that afternoon and Marina +didn't speak any English at all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations in English with Oswald +about living conditions in Russia, about his expenses in Russia? + +Mr. FORD. A little bit. He showed me pictures of people that he had +worked with in Russia. I believe they were on a picnic together, a +group of men, and various other pictures of places he had seen in +Minsk, and he briefly described the living conditions in Russia, I +guess the conditions under which he had lived in Russia, the small room +they had to live in, and he said something about how much money he made +there. I don't remember how much it was though. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of a job he had? + +Mr. FORD. No, he didn't. I think George Bouhe told me he had been a +sheet metal worker or something similar to that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In Minsk? + +Mr. FORD. In Minsk, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald compare to you the amount of money that he was +paid with the amount of money that other workers in the plant were paid? + +Mr. FORD. No; he said nothing about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate in any way any source of income other +than from his job? + +Mr. FORD. None. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At any time did he do that? + +Mr. FORD. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever learn of anything like that? + +Mr. FORD. No; I have heard people speak of it but I have never heard +him or anybody that knew him say he had another source of income. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have heard people speak of it when, since the +assassination? + +Mr. FORD. Since the assassination. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you heard nothing of it prior to the assassination? + +Mr. FORD. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get any impressions of Oswald at this first +meeting? + +Mr. FORD. I had an impression that he was not the type of person I +could make friends with very easily. He didn't impress me as being +friendly to me as a person. He was kind of closed up within himself. +And it seemed to me he preferred to speak in Russian rather than in +English. He wanted to practice speaking Russian with the Russian +speaking people rather than talking to me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mrs. Oswald have any bruises on her at that time? + +Mr. FORD. Yes, she did. On her face. + +Mr. LIEBELER. On her face. Was there any conversation about that? + +Mr. FORD. Not directly with me. My wife told me that Mrs. Oswald told +her it was due to some accident of running into a door at nighttime +while she was getting up to see what--the baby crying, something like +that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you accept that explanation? + +Mr. FORD. I didn't--well, really, I didn't accept it. It just didn't +make much sense but it didn't make an impression one way or the other +to me. I frankly at the time thought of a standard cartoon joke of +a kid explaining his black eye, by a kid explaining he ran into a +doorknob. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anything that happened at this first luncheon +that impressed you about Oswald or his attitude, in any way that you +think the Commission should know about? + +Mr. FORD. Very little. Except he seemed reserved, and I would call +excessively polite, and the fact I don't think he made any effort to +make friends with the other people. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When was the next time that you had any contact with +Oswald? + +Mr. FORD. The next time I saw him was the night I drove Marina from our +house to another friend's house, Mr. Frank Ray's house. She had been +staying at our house for about a week and she had been separated from +him. + +I had been out of town and when I came home she was invited to stay +over at Mr. Ray's house and I took her over there, I think it was on a +Friday evening. + +Lee Oswald called and wanted to talk to Marina and wanted then to come +out and see her. Mr. Ray told him if he would get on the bus and come +to the bus stop nearest their home that he would pick him up, and I +went with Mr. Ray to pick up Lee Oswald at the bus stop. + +We went back to Mr. Ray's home, and had a short conversation with Lee +Oswald but he said he wanted to talk to Marina, and he and Marina went +into another room. I don't know exactly how long it was but we sat +down and had one or two drinks, and then Lee came back in and said he +and his wife were going to have a reconciliation and she wanted to go +home with him that evening. Mr. Ray offered to drive them back to their +place in Oak Cliff, and then I went home. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were out of town throughout the entire time that +Marina stayed with your wife? + +Mr. FORD. Except for the last night. She stayed there one more night +after I came home. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any impression on Oswald that evening +different from the one that you originally had of him? + +Mr. FORD. Only it confirmed my original thought. I remember one +instance. Frank asked him where he was working and he would never +identify the place he was working. He would hedge, I forget his exact +words, but he mentioned that he was working, I think in a printing +shop, either printing or photographic developing shop, and Mr. Ray +asked him the name of the place, I think, twice, and he avoided +answering. He would just start talking about something completely +different. + +In other words, when he didn't want to answer a question he would +either change the subject or just start talking to somebody else. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You had no independent knowledge of where he was working +at that time? + +Mr. FORD. I didn't know the name. I had heard he was employed in this +shop that I think was a printing and photographic developing shop. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have anything to do with his getting that job? + +Mr. FORD. No, I didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether your friend did? + +Mr. FORD. I am not sure. I think either George Bouhe or maybe Theo +Meller may have introduced him to the owner of the shop but I am not +sure about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with either Mr. Meller or +Mr. Bouhe about this? + +Mr. FORD. I have had conversations with them, but it was prior to this +night when Lee came to make a reconciliation with his wife. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you that they had anything to do with his +getting this job? + +Mr. FORD. I don't specifically remember that they said so. I either +assumed this or something they said led me to believe it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with the Rays that evening +while you were taking Marina over there about the difficulties that the +Oswalds had in their marriage? + +Let's expand the question. Think about that, and also think about any +conversations that you may have had with your wife about that after +you went back, and tell us the conversations that you had with anybody +at that time about the incidents of the separation, what caused it and +what was the trouble between the Oswalds? + +Mr. FORD. I don't believe I had any discussion with either Mr. or Mrs. +Ray about specifically the difficulties in their marriage between +Marina and Lee Oswald. + +The only thing I remember is frankly saying something to the effect, +well, he is really a screwy nut, or something, he can't find ways to +work, something to that effect. + +I have not discussed their personal problems. But I have discussed it +with my wife about it prior to that and after that and also after the +assassination and it was my understanding when she left her husband it +was because he had beat her up. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody tell you any of the details about why he had +done that or what the cause of the trouble was? + +Mr. FORD. Not at the time. My wife didn't tell me anything about that. +Again, after the assassination, she told me more about it, but I don't +know if Marina had mentioned this prior to the assassination, the year +before that when she stayed at our house, or whether she mentioned it +after the assassination, I don't know the exact time that these details +were brought out. + +My wife did mention that perhaps Marina antagonized him by arguing with +him, talking back to him, or something like that whereas if she just +learned to be quiet when he said something he might not have hit her. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't recall whether that was developed during or +at the time or later on? + +Mr. FORD. I don't remember whether she told me that before the +assassination or not. I know we have talked about it since the +assassination. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When was the next contact that you had with the Oswalds? + +Mr. FORD. The next contact was after Christmas 1962. Between Christmas +and New Year's we gave a cocktail party and some friends of ours, +George De Mohrenschildt and his wife were invited and later called my +wife and asked her if it would be all right to bring Lee and Marina to +the party and my wife said sure, bring them along or might have asked +me if it was all right to bring them along and I said sure. It was +prior to December 28. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald come with De Mohrenschildt? + +Mr. FORD. Yes, he came with De Mohrenschildt. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know anything about the relations between Oswald +and the De Mohrenschildts? + +Mr. FORD. I knew they were friends, no more than that. How often they +saw each other or what they talked about or anything they talked about +I don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How old are the De Mohrenschildts? + +Mr. FORD. I guess George De Mohrenschildt is between 50 and 55 years +old. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem curious to you that a man that age would be +close to Lee Oswald who was around 21 or 22 at that particular time? + +Mr. FORD. Not in the particular case. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say that? + +Mr. FORD. Well, George De Mohrenschildt has a reputation for being +a left-wing enthusiast or something, I don't mean a member of the +Communist Party, but he is, I have heard other people say he has +expounded the ideals of Marxism and since Lee Oswald was supposedly a +Marxist or a Communist they would agree on their political views. + +Again, I have never heard George De Mohrenschildt expound on any of +these ideas. I have met him socially several times and he is very +pleasant, a big, good looking man, but other than their agreement on +what is the ideal political system, I can't think of anything else they +would have in common. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your knowledge of De Mohrenschildt's political views are +hearsay? + +Mr. FORD. All of it is hearsay. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did you learn about Oswald's political views? + +Mr. FORD. Also hearsay, from other people. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us who told you about it? + +Mr. FORD. I can't remember anybody, any specific statement from +anybody, but I have discussed it with people like both my wife and +George Bouhe and I don't remember if I discussed it with the Mellers +or not but it seems I have heard this from several different people +about just about everybody who knew them, the Oswalds, this was one of +the things that people were leary about in dealing with him was his +reputation for being a Communist. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he have that reputation in the community? + +Mr. FORD. Yes, I think he had that reputation of either--not being +a member, say, of the Communist Party, but his political ideas were +either Marxist or Communist or something he had derived from reading +Karl Marx, I suppose. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he expressed any extreme antagonism +or antagonism of any sort toward the Government of the United States? + +Mr. FORD. The only occasion I know of was the first time I met him, he +did blame the U.S. Embassy for delaying his exit, the exit of he and +his wife from Russia. + +He did state if it had not been for their delaying the exit visa that +his daughter would have been born in the United States rather than +Russia. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say anything more about that, do you remember any +more in detail? + +Mr. FORD. Not that I heard of or can remember. + +Representative FORD. Did he think the birth of his daughter in Russia +rather than in the United States was something important, did it appear +that way? + +Mr. FORD. I don't know how important he thought it was. It actually +started as a joke. We also had a baby born shortly before that and I +said, "Pretty little Russian girl" or something like that, and he made +a statement, "She is just as much a Texan as your son," and then went +on to explain that if the U.S. Embassy had acted more quickly that he +and Marina could have left Russia and that June, the daughter, would +have been born in the United States. + +I don't know whether he placed any great importance on it or not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever appear to you to have any kind of a sense +of humor? + +Mr. FORD. None whatsoever. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say anything about the attitude the Russian +authorities took when he wanted to come back to the United States and +bring his wife back with him? + +Mr. FORD. He never said anything to me. I think he may have while he +was talking Russian with these other people. He may have mentioned the +fact that it was easier, they got their visa for he and his wife from +the Russian authorities, the delay came from the American authorities, +but I don't specifically know whether it did. He said these things, +again it would be hearsay, again I would have heard it from my wife or +somebody else who could speak Russian who had either discussed it with +him or was present when he was discussing it with somebody else. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear Oswald or hear of Oswald making any +remarks that would indicate a hostility toward President Kennedy? + +Mr. FORD. No; never did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What about Governor Connally? + +Mr. FORD. Never heard that either, until after the assassination. I +saw newspaper copies of a letter he wrote to Governor Connally when +Governor Connally was Secretary of the Navy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I would limit my question to before the assassination? + +Mr. FORD. Before the assassination, no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear anything about his military career prior to +the assassination? + +Mr. FORD. No; in fact I had assumed prior to the assassination that he +had had an honorable discharge from the Marine Corps. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You never had any discussions with him about that or +heard anybody discussing it? + +Mr. FORD. He said something the first time I met him, I can't +specifically remember what it was, but I got the impression that, at +that time that he had been a Marine Corps guard at the U.S. Embassy +in Russia and I can't remember whether he said this or somebody else +mentioned it or whether I just assumed it on my own. + +So I know my first idea was this was the way he had gotten to Russia. I +later learned he had gone on his own. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't remember any specific discussion with him +about this question? + +Mr. FORD. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where Oswald was living during this period +that his wife was separated from him and living with you and Mrs. +Meller? + +Mr. FORD. I knew he had an apartment in this Oak Cliff section of +Dallas. I don't remember the exact address. I don't know whether he +stayed there while Marina was in our house or not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You had no knowledge where he lived prior to the time +that he took the apartment in Oak Cliff, did you? + +Mr. FORD. Well, I think he lived in Fort Worth. I am not absolutely +sure. I believe this apartment in Oak Cliff was the first place he +lived in Dallas, but I am not absolutely sure about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You had never talked to him about it? + +Mr. FORD. No; never. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever visit the apartment? + +Mr. FORD. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, had we gotten to the Christmas party? + +Mr. FORD. You asked me about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us as best as you can recall the events of that +period. I think you said there was a party at your house on the 28th of +December. + +Mr. FORD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me if there were parties or get-togethers at which +you were present or of which you knew at other homes during that period. + +Mr. FORD. Well, there were, but I don't remember the specific dates +that they were. I think they were after the party at our house. There +was a party at George Bouhe's home, an apartment, during that period. I +think it was a few days after that, right in the period of New Year's +Eve, and I went to several celebrations. + +I would hate to try to recall exactly when each one of them was and who +was there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember going to George Bouhe's apartment? + +Mr. FORD. Yes; I remember going there but I don't remember the exact +date that it was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was Oswald at that meeting? + +Mr. FORD. No; he was not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any discussion of Oswald at that time? + +Mr. FORD. Not that I can remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any other parties that you attended during +that period? + +Mr. FORD. I don't remember any formal parties. I stopped and had drinks +with a lot of people. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Specifically, was there a get-together at your home the +night after the party that you had on the 28th of December? + +Mr. FORD. Not a formal party, just a group of people happened to show +up and we started another party. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there? + +Mr. FORD. Mr. and Mrs. Sullivan, friends of ours from New Orleans, and +Mr. and Mrs. Harris who were from Georgetown, Tex., and another Mr. and +Mrs. Ray, not the ones who live in Dallas, but these live in Paris, Tex. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would that be Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray? + +Mr. FORD. Thomas Ray. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Thomas Ray. And yourself and your wife? + +Mr. FORD. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Anybody else? + +Mr. FORD. Right now I can't remember anybody else who came in. It was +not a formal gathering, just people happened to stop in and we started +having a party. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of any discussion of Oswald +at that time? + +Mr. FORD. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember at any time having any discussion with +any of your Russian friends on the question of whether or not Oswald +was a Russian agent? + +Mr. FORD. Prior to the assassination? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, sir. + +Mr. FORD. No; I don't remember prior to the assassination. There may +have been some but I don't remember any. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At the party at your home on the 28th of December, did +you have any conversation with Oswald? + +Mr. FORD. Said "hello, how are you," to he and Marina, and after that, +I can't remember Oswald talking to anybody there except one guest, a +Japanese girl, Yaeko, I forget her last name; my wife will remember. + +As nearly as I can remember she was the only person in the whole party +that he ever bothered to talk to. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether Oswald was drinking that evening? + +Mr. FORD. I fixed one drink for him, in a little liqueur glass full of +liqueur. As far as I remember he never touched it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever observe Oswald smoking? + +Mr. FORD. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't remember any discussion about Oswald after +he left that evening? + +Mr. FORD. No; after he left that evening, I don't recall any discussion +of him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any conversations with De Mohrenschildt +about Oswald? + +Mr. FORD. I don't remember any specific conversations with George De +Mohrenschildt. I may have. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was your impression of Oswald at this time as far +as his relations with the other members of the Russian community were +concerned, and generally? + +Mr. FORD. My impression was that he didn't want his wife to associate +with them, and that he resented any aid or help people tried to give +either he or his wife. I might say, I know, I have heard other Russian +people there, for example, would take Marina to a grocery store and +buy a load of groceries for her and take her back, and one girl that +went by and found the baby had a fever and nobody was taking it to the +hospital and she took Marina and the baby to the hospital for some +medical treatment for it, and I had the impression that Lee Oswald +resented this. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You gained that impression from conversations that you +had? + +Mr. FORD. From conversations with other people, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is there any---- + +Mr. FORD. I was also going to say---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Pardon me. + +Mr. FORD. I think during the period of 1962 that George Bouhe, for +example, thought it would be helpful for Marina to learn English and he +tried to encourage her to learn English and I had heard later that Lee +Oswald resented this, he didn't want her to learn English. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you hear that? + +Mr. FORD. That was back in 1962. I can't remember the specific time, +but---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversation with Mr. and Mrs. Harris at +the party at your place on the 28th of December? + +Mr. FORD. Oh, yes; I had conversations with them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear of an incident where Mrs. Harris was trying +to teach English to Marina at the party and certain American customs +and Oswald objected to it? + +Mr. FORD. I didn't observe it. She may have tried to teach her some +American customs. I don't remember hearing Oswald say anything about +it, Lee Oswald say anything about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mrs. Harris say anything about it to you? + +Mr. FORD. Not that I can remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you have no knowledge of that incident if it occurred +at all? + +Mr. FORD. No. It seems to me I have heard somebody else mention this +but I did not see it or hear anything myself. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after the party on the 28th of December that was +held at your house, when was the next contact that you had with either +one of the Oswalds? + +Mr. FORD. Well, I heard a few times or my wife had heard something +about Marina living in Irving, but never actually saw either one of +them until after the assassination. Then the first contact we had with +Marina was, I believe, my wife tried to get in touch with her, either +invite her to come to my house or to tell her that once things had been +cleared up, the investigation had been cleared up, to feel free to come +by, and let her know she still had friends. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody suggest to you shortly after the +assassination that Marina should come and live with you? + +Mr. FORD. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever express any hesitancy to anyone in +connection with any suggestion that Marina should come and live with +you? + +Mr. FORD. I don't remember ever expressing it. If somebody had +mentioned it the afternoon or next day after the assassination I +probably would have been a little bit hesitant about it. But I don't +remember saying anything to anybody. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when Marina moved into your home +after the assassination? + +Mr. FORD. Yes; but this was in February of this year. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you express any hesitancy at that time? + +Mr. FORD. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't recall expressing any immediately after the +assassination or before? + +Mr. FORD. No. I don't remember talking to anybody at all about it. I +mean the first few days immediately after the assassination, I don't +recall saying anything to anybody about it, where she was going to live +at my house or anybody else's. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any conversations with Mr. Jim Martin +on that subject? + +Mr. FORD. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now prior to the time that Marina came to live in your +home, your wife has testified she talked to Marina on the telephone +several times and that Marina came to visit on two or three occasions, +two occasions, I believe, at your home. + +Mr. FORD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to your wife about what Marina had said +during your wife's visits with Marina? + +Mr. FORD. When she came to visit us in our home? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mr. FORD. I talked to her about what she had talked to Marina, and I +couldn't carry on much of a conversation with Marina myself because she +didn't speak much English but I would ask my wife, and my wife would +tell me what she had said. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether there was any discussion about +Marina's testimony before this Commission, either before she went to +Washington or after she came back? + +Mr. FORD. No; not--my wife never told me before she came to Washington +to testify before the Commission. After she came back, I did overhear +some conversation between Marina, my wife, and Mr. William M. McKenzie +regarding the testimony given to the Commission. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us what that was to the best of your +recollection? + +Let me ask you this: Where did this occur? + +Mr. FORD. I think it was in Mr. McKenzie's office, it may have been +either in his office or my home but I think it was in his office, and I +believe the FBI had been questioning her this afternoon, I am not sure +of the date, and I came back later to pick up my wife and Marina and in +my presence Mr. McKenzie asked my wife to ask Marina in Russian if she +had told the Commission this Nixon story. I don't know the details of +the story, but something regarding the threat to Mr. Nixon. + +And I think Marina, again through my wife, told Mr. McKenzie that she +had not mentioned this to the Commission. But that she had mentioned it +to the FBI, and she had mentioned it, I believe to the FBI prior to the +Commission hearing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who told you that? + +Mr. FORD. Well, I was standing there while Mr. McKenzie was talking to +Marina using my wife as a translator. + +Representative FORD. Was this in your home, did you say? + +Mr. FORD. I think it was in Mr. McKenzie's office; it might have been +in my home. Several times I have overheard conversation either in Mr. +McKenzie's office or at my home. + +Representative FORD. It could have been in either? + +Mr. FORD. It could have been either, but it seems to me it was at +his office. I think as Marina said, she had not said anything to the +Commission about this, and then I think Mr. McKenzie asked her why +not, and she said well she hadn't thought of it or nobody asked her; +something to that effect. + +I think he was trying to establish whether or not she had purposely +withheld information from the Commission and she said no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear Marina Oswald make any remark to the +effect when she was before the Commission she just answered questions +and did not volunteer anything? + +Mr. FORD. I never heard her say that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody ever translate that, a remark like that, so +that you heard it when it was translated? + +Mr. FORD. No; I never heard anybody translate for Marina and say that; +no. + +In my presence, I never heard her say that and have it translated by +anybody. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear from anybody else that she had said +that? + +Mr. FORD. Not until yesterday when I was talking about it with you, +that I can remember anything. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And yesterday when we talked about it, I asked you the +question, had anybody said that, isn't that right? + +Mr. FORD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you obtain any information concerning the Nixon, +any detailed information concerning the Nixon affair as a result of +detailed conversations with your wife after she had had conversations +with Marina? I am assuming Marina would speak in Russian to your wife. +Did your wife ever tell you what Marina had ever said to her about the +Nixon affair? + +Mr. FORD. A little bit, not all the details. But something to the +effect that Lee Oswald was threatening, I don't know whether to shoot +Nixon, and in some way she had locked him in a bathroom and kept him +there, I think all day. He had calmed down or cooled off and wasn't +going to do anything. Just how she managed to do this, I don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss the question with your wife as to how? + +Mr. FORD. No; not--again, I never discussed it until yesterday, last +night. I was talking to her and wondered how the devil she managed to +lock him in the bathroom. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you discussed that with your wife last night as a +result of a similar question that I asked you yesterday afternoon when +we were reviewing the testimony? + +Mr. FORD. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn anything relating to the Walker affair as a +result of conversations with your wife? + +Mr. FORD. Well, I had read about it in the newspapers; I had read +stories that Lee Oswald had told Marina that he had taken a shot at +General Walker and my wife did tell me later on she asked Marina if +this were true and I think Marina said this was true, that Lee Oswald +had told Marina he was the one who had taken a shot at General Walker. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the extent of your conversations about the Walker +incident? + +Mr. FORD. No; she mentioned something else that my wife told me about. +That after Lee had taken a shot at General Walker, he had hidden +the gun somewhere and went back the next day or a few days later +and recovered the gun. And that Lee was reading the reports in the +newspaper and made some statement, "Well, how stupid can the police +be," something to this effect. In other words, expressing the idea +that the police were unable to find out what happened in the Walker +incident. And then also Marina had said at one time, I believe the day +after the shooting of Walker or attempted shooting of Walker, George De +Mohrenschildt had come into the house and made some statement to them +regarding it. I can't remember the exact words but it was referring to +it, Walker, somebody shooting at General Walker, and asking Lee how he +could miss and she was surprised that De Mohrenschildt knew about it +and Marina thought Lee had told George De Mohrenschildt about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever learn how George De Mohrenschildt had +learned about it? + +Mr. FORD. No; I imagine he was surprised that Lee had done the shooting +and to him it would have been a good joke. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything else about the Walker incident +that you and your wife may have talked about? + +Mr. FORD. Yes; we have discussed it some after, I believe, Marina came +to stay with us, and I expressed the doubt that Lee Oswald was the one +who took a shot at Walker. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any basis for expressing that doubt? + +Mr. FORD. The only basis for it was that there was a story in one of +the newspapers that they could not identify the bullet taken out of the +wood in Walker's home as having come from a gun that Lee Oswald owned, +it was too badly destroyed and they couldn't be sure it was the gun, +the same gun, that shot the bullets at President Kennedy and Governor +Connally. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So on the basis of that newspaper story you expressed +doubts as to whether Oswald was actually involved in the Walker +incident? + +Mr. FORD. Well, I expressed the doubt. It was possible that he really +wasn't the one who took a shot at General Walker but just claimed he +did and this to me would not be surprising. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say that? + +Mr. FORD. Well, I think, my opinion of Lee Oswald is that he would do +anything to gain attention for himself, draw attention to himself, make +not necessarily a hero out of himself but just a well-known person. He +wanted attention. He wanted to be a big shot. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you think in an attempt to do that he might claim he +had been the one who shot at Walker where, in fact, he was not the one +at all? + +Mr. FORD. It is possible, I think it is possible. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with your wife in which +your wife told you anything that Marina said about the details of the +assassination, about Lee's coming home to Irving and his leaving for +Dallas the next morning? + +Mr. FORD. Well, we talked about it; I don't recall all the details of +what my wife told me, whether they were my wife's opinions or things +she had heard directly from Marina. + +Apparently Marina was surprised that he would come home in the +middle of the week rather than on weekends or come to visit her, +and I gathered that Marina had thought of these things after the +assassination, as she tried to figure things out. Well this increased +her belief that Lee Oswald was the man who assassinated the President, +because he did so many strange things that week, I mean that day +before, not the week, the day before the assassination. + +Mr. LIEBELER. To your knowledge, has Marina expressed any feeling about +Oswald's guilt while she lived with you or while you were acquainted +with her after the assassination, other than the fact he was guilty? + +Mr. FORD. No; so far as I know she just accepts the fact he was guilty. +He was the man who shot the President. And she believes this is true. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss this question with Robert Oswald? + +Mr. FORD. No, not specifically, I didn't. I never asked Robert Oswald +if he believed that his brother shot the President. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever indicate to you that he did not believe +that? + +Mr. FORD. Not directly. The only thing that might have indicated it +was when Life published a picture of Lee Oswald on the front cover and +I read a newspaper article which stated that Mrs. Marguerite Oswald +was intending to sue Life Magazine and I wondered why, was the picture +faked, and Robert Oswald said no it was a true picture of Lee Oswald +but the title of the picture, that is what he was upset about, and I +think the title was Lee Oswald holding the gun he either used to shoot +or used to kill the President, and I didn't pursue the subject further +with him. + +I don't know specifically what he was upset about, if he thought his +brother did shoot the President. There was nothing wrong with the +statement except he may not have liked it in print. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That was the only statement Robert Oswald made to you +about the subject. + +Mr. FORD. But he never said he didn't believe his brother did it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other reasons for thinking that Oswald is +the kind of person who would claim to do something that he hadn't done +just to get attention drawn to him? + +Mr. FORD. Well, yes; I think he was erratic enough in his behavior +throughout his whole life to indicate that. Of course, I have read a +lot about his life since the assassination, so it is not all opinion I +formed prior to the assassination. + +It is hard for me to distinguish which things I thought before the +assassination from those I have thought about since the assassination. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In that respect let me ask you this question: Were +you surprised when you heard that Oswald had been charged with the +assassination? + +Mr. FORD. Yes, I was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think on the basis of your knowledge of him +before the assassination that he would have been capable of such a +thing? + +Mr. FORD. No; I wouldn't have thought so prior to the assassination and +when I first heard he was picked up, I first thought, well, as I said +to my wife, "This nut has gone down and got himself mixed up just to +get some publicity." + +Representative FORD. You said that to your wife? + +Mr. FORD. Yes; that was my first opinion. When I heard that Lee Oswald +was the man arrested, and I said I think I said, "This idiot has got +himself arrested and got himself mixed up to get some publicity". + +Mr. LIEBELER. What made you say that? + +Mr. FORD. Again, I considered him to be erratic and unpredictable, I +don't know how to explain the things that he would do. + +For example, he had gone to Russia and he didn't like it there, he had +gone back to Fort Worth and he didn't like it there. He didn't seem to +like any place that he was, he didn't seem to make lasting friendships +with anybody. And he would hop from one job to another, and move from +one town to another. He never seemed to be satisfied and I considered +his whole behavior rather erratic, and I suppose the main reason was, +I felt that he had no desire to support, and I felt this prior to the +assassination, he had no desire to support his wife and child, and he +wanted and would be quite willing to sponge off anybody to get their +support, and this was my primary reason for not wanting to associate +with him rather than any political feelings he had. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did these things lead you to think that he was not +capable of doing the assassination or that he just went there to get +involved? + +Mr. FORD. Prior to the assassination I never even considered the +possibility of his killing a man but if somebody had asked me prior to +the assassination, I would have answered no, I don't think he would +kill anybody. But I don't think I really even considered it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You would have---- + +Mr. FORD. When the President was assassinated. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you would have based that response on the things you +mentioned already. + +Is there anything else you would have based that reason on? + +Mr. FORD. Well, it is difficult to say. My general opinion of the +man was that he was strange and he did a lot of things I couldn't +understand but I had no reason to think he would attack a person with +the intent to kill him. + +As far as I knew there was nothing he had ever done before that that +would indicate he would ever kill anybody. I don't know how you tell +ahead of time whether a man can commit murder. I was never worried +about him going out and killing somebody: say I would have never said +prior to the assassination that you have got to watch out for this guy, +he is dangerous. He didn't impress me that way. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You had information prior to the assassination that he +had beaten his wife, did you not? + +Mr. FORD. Right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And did you take that information, would you take that, +into consideration in the judgment that you just expressed? + +Mr. FORD. No; I don't think so. I think man and wife can fight over +a lot of things and it isn't necessary that either one of them would +intend to kill somebody. He might become violent toward his wife, who +is a much smaller and weaker person but he never impressed me as the +type of person who would violently attack another man, for example. + +Mr. FORD. When did you first hear that Lee Oswald was held by the +authorities? + +Mr. FORD. It was the afternoon of the assassination, I heard on the +radio. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was your reaction then? + +Mr. FORD. Just what I said, my first reaction, "This idiot has gone +down to get himself some attention and confuse the whole issue." + +At that time I didn't know he was working in the School Book Depository +Building. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do subsequent to hearing this radio +broadcast? + +Mr. FORD. Let's see; I heard it in a hardware store and I went and +picked up my wife who was shopping at the grocery store, picked her up, +and told her what I had heard and we went home. I didn't do anything +specifically that I can think of. I did not mention it to anybody. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you and your wife on the way home from this shopping +trip discuss the apprehension of Lee Oswald and his implication in the +affair? + +Mr. FORD. Well, I told her the police had picked him up, and that he +was apparently being held both for the assassination of the President +and for shooting a police officer, and my wife was a little bit worried +then, I think, about the people's reaction to the children, and she +said, well, "Don't mention it in front of the children." + +By the time we got home, I believe Linda, my stepdaughter, had already +talked on the phone to Mrs. Anna Ray, who had also heard the radio +broadcast and called up to ask if my wife had heard it, and, of course, +by then it was too late, they knew who Lee Oswald was, they read who he +was, that Marina stayed at our house. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Then if I understand it you and your wife voluntarily +went down to police headquarters? + +Mr. FORD. Well, the next Sunday. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Two days later? + +Mr. FORD. Yes; the assassination was on a Friday afternoon. On Sunday +morning, Mr. Frank Ray called me and said he heard on the radio that +the FBI had requested anybody who knew Lee Oswald to please contact +them, and he asked me what I was going to do, I said, "Well, I don't +know, I will call an attorney and see what he suggests." I called Max +Clark at Fort Worth and he was out, so I called my sister out in Los +Angeles. She is an attorney and married to one, and I said, "Who are +you supposed to contact if you know information about Lee Oswald," and +she said she assumed it would be the FBI, so I then called the FBI +office and made an appointment to talk to an agent and we made the +appointment to talk in the FBI office in downtown Dallas. While we were +driving downtown I stopped to get some gas and the attendant told me +that somebody had just shot Lee Oswald and it was right about that time +that I went down to talk with the FBI. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In this interval between your first reaction and your +going to the interview with the FBI, did you and your wife discuss any +further the Oswald implications? + +Mr. FORD. I am sure we discussed it, but I can't remember exactly what +we said to each other about it. + +I think she was worried at first that her children would suffer some +prejudice from other people. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Marina's children? + +Mr. FORD. No; our children. And, of course, also that Marina was and +her two children, my wife felt, would be sort of considered persona +non grata in this country from then on, but I didn't consider this +would happen as long as she was not implicated in a plot to kill the +President. + +I know we discussed it but I just can't remember specifically what we +said. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Ford, did you at any time learn of any desire on +Oswald's part to return to Russia? + +Mr. FORD. Yes; after the assassination I did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did you learn that? + +Mr. FORD. Well, partly from discussing it, I heard it through friends +and then later when Marina talked to my wife, I don't remember if this +was during the time she visited us during January or after she moved +in, but she did tell the story to my wife of his desire, as expressing +a desire, to return to Russia, and I am a little confused as to what +the story was. + +As nearly as I could make out he had told her he wanted to go back to +Russia first and then later said, no, he was going--couldn't get a visa +to Russia and he was going to try to get a visa and go through Cuba and +then go to Russia, and then I think he changed his mind again and said +he was going to ask for a visa to Cuba, using it as an excuse with the +idea of going to Russia and then stay in Cuba, and somewhere in there +I got the idea that Marina was not willing to go. He wanted Marina +to return to Russia and I had the impression this was just a--but I +couldn't even give you the details of her various statements which led +me to the conclusions--as nearly as I could figure out, this was the +story she had told my wife and she told me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn at any time through your wife or otherwise +that Marina Oswald at one point had contemplated committing suicide? + +Mr. FORD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about that? + +Mr. FORD. Well, the first time I heard it was yesterday. + +Mr. LIEBELER. During our conversations? + +Mr. FORD. During our conversations, yesterday. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And your wife explained to us in our conversations +yesterday that she, Marina Oswald, had told her at onetime contemplated +committing suicide? + +Mr. FORD. That is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That was the extent of our conversations yesterday? + +Mr. FORD. Yes, sir. That is right. I think my wife said Marina felt so +desolate and downhearted that she felt that was the only way out at the +time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you finished? + +Mr. FORD. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other information or knowledge that +you think the Commission should know about in connection with these +matters that we haven't already asked you about? + +Mr. FORD. There is nothing I can think of offhand. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In our conversations yesterday you and your wife and I +discussed your testimony today. Have we covered those matters here in +the testimony and have there been any inconsistencies between what we +discussed yesterday and what we have discussed today on the record that +you can think of? + +Mr. FORD. No; I can't think of any inconsistencies. I assume we have +covered everything we discussed yesterday. I can't remember everything +we discussed yesterday, so I am just assuming we covered it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have no more questions then. + +The CHAIRMAN. Have you anything further, Congressman Ford? + +Representative FORD. Mr. Ford, you drove Marina Oswald from your home +to the Ray home? + +Mr. FORD. Yes. + +Representative FORD. In October or November of 1962? + +Mr. FORD. It was in November. + +Representative FORD. It was November of 1962. How long a drive is that? + +Mr. FORD. It is about 15 minutes. I guess it couldn't be over 7 or 8 +miles, 6, 7, 8 miles, something like that. + +Representative FORD. Did you have any conversation with her at that +time? + +Mr. FORD. No. She couldn't speak but about a half dozen words of +English. + +Representative FORD. So there was no real conversation between the two +of you? + +Mr. FORD. No. + +Representative FORD. That is all. + +Mr. MURRAY. Mr. Chief Justice, may I confer briefly with counsel? + +The CHAIRMAN. Where were you born? + +Mr. FORD. Los Angeles. + +The CHAIRMAN. Did you go to the public schools there? + +Mr. FORD. I attended both parochial and public schools in Los Angeles +and Glendale. + +The CHAIRMAN. Then you went to the University of California at Los +Angeles? + +Mr. FORD. Right. + +The CHAIRMAN. Where did you go after that. You were in the service, did +you say? + +Mr. FORD. I was in the service. After I got out of the service I went +back to UCLA and finished my education and then went to work in the oil +industry first in Bakersfield and in Los Angeles, Ventura, and then +went to work for DeGollyer and McNaughton overseas. + +The CHAIRMAN. I see. + +Representative FORD. How old are you, Mr. Ford? + +Mr. FORD. Forty-one. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Ford, were you at any time present in Mr. McKenzie's +office, William McKenzie, when there was a discussion with Marina +Oswald concerning guns and the gun that was used to or presumably used +to attack Walker and the gun that was subsequently presumably used to +attack the President? + +Mr. FORD. I don't remember any discussion. I have been in his office +several times when he was discussing things with Marina, but I don't +remember him ever asking about this gun or discussing this gun. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear McKenzie at anytime advise Marina if she +were asked about these guns she should say there was only one gun? + +Mr. FORD. I think I did hear him say that once or something to that +effect but I don't remember specifically the words. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you recall---- + +Mr. FORD. But I don't think it was any discussion about the gun used in +shooting General Walker. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about it. + +Mr. FORD. As nearly as I can remember it, the whole discussion was, he +was telling her, he had asked her if there was anything else but this +one rifle and she said no, and he said "be sure you always say that +there was just this one gun," but I thought he was referring to the gun +used only in the case of the assassination. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He asked her about this before he advised her? + +Mr. FORD. Apparently this was after she had been interrogated by the +FBI and I don't know--I just had the impression they were talking about +the possibility that more than one gun was used in the assassination of +President Kennedy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the best you can recall about that conversation? + +Mr. FORD. The best I can recall, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is all. + +The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Ford. I appreciate your coming +here with your wife. You have been very helpful. + +The CHAIRMAN. Let's call Mr. Gregory. + + +TESTIMONY OF PETER PAUL GREGORY + +Mr. Gregory, you were given a copy of a statement of the reason for our +meeting today, were you not? + +Mr. GREGORY. No, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. Then I will read it to you. This is customary---- + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. We read a statement to the witness. + +The purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of Mr. and Mrs. +Declan P. Ford, and Mr. Peter Paul Gregory. The Commission has been +advised that Mr. and Mrs. Ford made the acquaintance of the Oswalds +shortly after their arrival in the United States in June of 1962, +and that Mrs. Marina Oswald lived in the Ford home on two different +occasions, in November 1962, and for a period following February 12, +1964. + +The Commission has also been advised that Mr. Gregory was contacted by +Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald shortly after Mr. Oswald's return from Russia +as a result of which Mr. and Mrs. Oswald made the acquaintances of a +large number of Russian speaking people in the Dallas and Fort Worth +area. Since the Commission is inquiring fully into the background +and possible motive of Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged assassin, it +intends to ask the above witnesses questions concerning Mr. Oswald, +his associations and relations with others, and any and all matters +relating to the assassination. + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. Will you raise your right hand and be sworn, please, Mr. +Gregory. + +Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this +Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the +truth, so help you God? + +Mr. GREGORY. I do. + +The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated. + +Mr. Liebeler will ask the questions of you. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your name for the record, please? + +Mr. GREGORY. My name is Peter Paul Gregory. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And will you tell us where you were born? + +Mr. GREGORY. I was born in Chita, Siberia. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly how you came to the United +States? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir. + +I came to the United States on or about August 1, 1923. I landed in San +Francisco; came from Japan where I lived for 2 years prior to that. And +my purpose was, of course, to come as an immigrant and to attend the +University of California. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you attend the University of California? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir; I enrolled at the University in 1923 and I +stayed out of the University for a couple of years but I graduated in +1929 as a petroleum engineer at Berkeley. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What educational background did you have in Russia or +Japan before you came to the United States? + +Mr. GREGORY. I started my primary education in Russia, in 1912, and my +education was interrupted by civil war in 1919. I finished high school +or the equivalent of high school in Tokyo, Japan, where I attended the +American school in Japan. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you learn to speak English? + +Mr. GREGORY. I learned it in Japan. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you personally involved in the civil war in Russia? + +Mr. GREGORY. Not personally, no. I was too young; I was only 16, 17 at +the time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were any of your relatives involved in that? + +Mr. GREGORY. My older brother was an officer in the White Russian Army. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you presently reside in Fort Worth? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir. I have been residing in Fort Worth for the past +20 years, and prior to that in the oilfields in the western part of +Texas for 15 years, and prior to that I resided in California from 1923 +to 1929. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are presently self-employed in Fort Worth, is that +correct? + +Mr. GREGORY. I am presently chairman of the Yates Pool Engineering +Committee which is a group of engineers supervising activities in +the Yates oilfield in Pecos County, Tex., and I am also a consulting +petroleum engineer. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you are fluent in the Russian language, are you? + +Mr. GREGORY. I am, I think. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, you teach Russian at the Fort Worth Public +Library, is that correct? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes, I do; as a civic enterprise. I teach Russian once a +week from 10 to 20 weeks a year. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately how long have you been doing that, sir? + +Mr. GREGORY. For about 3 or 4 years. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us about your first contact with Lee +Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir. + +It was in the middle of June 1962. On that particular morning, I was in +the office, my telephone rang, and the voice on the other end told me +that my name was given to him by the Fort Worth Public Library. He knew +I was teaching Russian at the library, that he was looking for a job +as a translator or interpreter in the Russian and English languages, +and that he would like for me to give him a letter testifying to that +effect. + +He spoke to me in English, so I suggested to him, not knowing who that +was, that he might drop by my office and I would be glad to give him a +test. He did. He came by the office, about 11 o'clock that morning, and +I gave him a short test by simply opening a book at random and asking +him to read a paragraph or two and then translate it. + +He did it very well. So I gave him a letter addressed to whom it may +concern that in my opinion he was capable of being an interpreter or a +translator. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What happened after you gave Mr. Oswald--this individual +was Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir; that individual was Lee Harvey Oswald. + +After that, I asked him--I noticed that he spoke with what I thought +to be a Polish accent, so I asked him if he were of Polish origin, and +he stated that he was not, that he was raised in Fort Worth, Tex., but +that he learned Russian in the Soviet Union where he lived for 2-1/2 or +3 years. + +He also told me that he married a Russian girl, and that he brought +his wife with him, and that they also had a baby. I told him that I +knew of no openings at the time--I didn't know of any--for services of +a translator or interpreter, but that if he would leave his address I +would be glad to get in touch with him if and when I learned of any +such openings. + +He gave me his address. He lived with his brother at that time at the +western edge of Fort Worth. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever send him any work as a translator or +interpreter? + +Mr. GREGORY. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you and Mr. Oswald have lunch together that day. + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir. It was about noontime when I gave him that test, +so I invited him to lunch, and during the lunch being naturally curious +about the present day life in the Soviet Union, I was asking him +questions, asked how people lived there, and so forth. + +He told me that he was employed in a factory in Minsk as a sheet-metal +worker. He told me a little bit about the working conditions and living +conditions in that country. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how he was paid as a worker? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I think I asked him what he was paid and my +recollection is that he told me he was getting about 80 rubles a month. +I may be wrong about that but that is my recollection. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he compare his salary with the salary of other +workers in Russia? + +Mr. GREGORY. Other workers in the Soviet Union? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mr. GREGORY. No, he did not. By way of comparison. I was curious as to +what the purchasing power of his earnings would be, I asked him what 80 +rubles would buy, and I think he mentioned, as I say, a pair of shoes +cost around 15 rubles. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you that he had any source of income +other than his job at the factory? + +Mr. GREGORY. No, sir; he did not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you anything about why he went to Russia? + +Mr. GREGORY. The only statement he made that I remember, he said, "I +went to the Soviet Union on my own," but I did not feel like prying +into his affairs. I did not press the question. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice anything about the way he was dressed or +anything else about him that would seem strange to you? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes; it was a very hot morning. You know in Texas in the +middle of June, it is generally hot. I remember that he wore a flannel, +woolen coat, suit, and atrocious looking shoes that were made in Russia. + +I know he was very uncomfortable because he was too warmly dressed for +that time of the year. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Oswald tell you anything else at that time about +conditions in the Soviet Union or his attempt to come back to the +United States or bringing his wife back that you can recall? + +Mr. GREGORY. I don't recall of anything outstanding that he told me. +But I think he did tell me that they, he and his wife, left Moscow by +train, and they went through East Germany to Berlin, I believe, and +that their destination was Amsterdam, I believe, where they took a ship +to come to New York. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he express anything about any difficulties that he +might have had in returning to the United States? + +Mr. GREGORY. No, sir; not to my recollection. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem extraordinary to you that his wife was able +to leave the Soviet Union with him or didn't you think about that? + +Mr. GREGORY. I thought at the time it was more than extraordinary. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say that? + +Mr. GREGORY. Because simply from reading accounts of the difficulties +experienced by so many Americans who married Russian girls in the +Soviet Union, and all the difficulties they had to secure permits from +the Soviet Government for an exit visa for their wives. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss that with Mr. Oswald? + +Mr. GREGORY. I did not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When was the next time you saw him? + +Mr. GREGORY. The next time was a few days later, and the occasion was +this, to the best of my recollection. My youngest son Paul, who at +the time was a junior at the University of Oklahoma, Paul majoring in +economics and also studying the Russian and the German languages, Paul +expressed a wish to meet Marina Oswald simply because she was fresh +from the country, Russia; that presumably her language was pure Russian +language as compared to mine which became, shall we say, affected by +my 40 years living in the United States, is not pure Russian any more +probably, in fact, he thought that maybe he could take lessons of the +Russian language from Marina Oswald. + +So, I arranged; I called Lee Oswald at his brother's residence, and +asked if it would be, if they would be, at home, that my son and I +would come out to visit them, and we did. I don't remember the date but +it must have been within possibly within 10 days, the first 10 days +after his initial contact with me at the office. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Let us try to set the date of your initial contact. I +have here a copy, not a confirmed copy, but just a typewritten copy of +a letter entitled "To Whom it May Concern." I show it to you and ask +you if that is the letter to the best of your recollection that you +gave to Mr. Oswald? + +Mr. GREGORY. I think that is a copy of the letter I gave. That was on +June 19, 1962. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I ask that it be admitted in evidence and marked as the +next exhibit. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be marked. + +It will be marked as Exhibit 384. + +Very well, it is admitted as Exhibit 384. + +(The letter referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 384 for +identification and received in evidence.) + +Mr. GREGORY. I would hazard a guess that the second contact with Lee +Oswald that I just referred to was made, say, around the 25th, toward +the end of June 1962. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you went to see him at his brother's house? + +Mr. GREGORY. At his brother Robert's, Robert Oswald's house. Paul and I +spent there perhaps an hour, speaking Russian with Marina, and mostly +with Marina. They showed some pictures, snapshots of their friends, of +themselves, taken in Minsk. We talked about the living conditions, just +in a very general way. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss politics with Mr. Oswald? + +Mr. GREGORY. No, sir; we did not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss politics with him at any time? + +Mr. GREGORY. Not with Lee Oswald, no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get the impression from just talking to the +Oswalds at this time that Oswald was treated pretty much as other +Russians were in Russia or did you think he had a special situation +there in any way? + +Mr. GREGORY. My personal impression was that he was treated there as +the rest of the Russians. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did your son subsequently have additional contacts with +the Oswalds? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. He and I made arrangements for Marina Oswald to give +him lessons, conversational lessons, I believe it was twice a week, and +Paul paid her for these lessons. I don't remember the exact amount, +whether it came under the minimum or not, it was around a dollar and +a half an hour. And he took those lessons after he made a visit to +his aunt in San Francisco in July of 1962. So, I would say that he +took lessons from Marina Oswald, say, from approximately August 1 to +September 15 when he went back to the university of Oklahoma. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when the last contact was that your son +had with the Oswalds? + +Mr. GREGORY. To the best of my knowledge his last contact with them was +the Thanksgiving Day of 1962. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did your son tell you whether he had discussions with +Oswald concerning politics and economics and things like that? + +Mr. GREGORY. He mentioned once, I believe, that there were political +discussions. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you about that? + +Mr. GREGORY. He told me that he thought Lee Oswald was pretty silly in +his views. + +The CHAIRMAN. Pretty silly? + +Mr. GREGORY. Silly. + +The CHAIRMAN. Silly. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he express any other---- + +Mr. GREGORY. He also mentioned that he saw some book on Marxism, +whether it was Das Kapital or some other book I don't recall now, +but he saw a book on Marxism in Lee's residence when they lived on +Mercedes Street in Fort Worth. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say in words or substance that he thought that +Oswald was a half-baked Communist? + +Mr. GREGORY. I think that is the expression he used, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did there--did you ever go to Oswald's own apartment? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes, I went there once to take Paul to his lesson. I, in +other words I visited in their so-called living room once, when they +lived on Mercedes Street. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In Fort Worth? + +Mr. GREGORY. In Fort Worth, yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us what the conditions in their home were +like? + +Mr. GREGORY. It was practically a bare room. There was no furniture to +speak of. There was the bare necessities; there was no playpen or crib +for the baby. The baby was playing in the middle of the floor in the +living room, as I remember. It was an extremely primitively furnished +room, and the rest of the house was the same way. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any impression as to whether the Oswald baby +was being adequately cared for? + +Mr. GREGORY. No; that I don't know. I do know this, that Oswald showed +outward signs of love toward the baby. He would pucker his lips and +this and that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Indicating that he had affection for the child? + +Mr. GREGORY. For the child. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At that visit did you have any discussion with Oswald +about living conditions or anything else in Russia? + +Mr. GREGORY. No, sir; I simply took Paul in for that lesson, and I left +before the lesson began. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did there come a time when you held a dinner party +to which you invited Mr. Oswald? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. Well, really, it was not a dinner party. It was a +small dinner. I mentioned the fact that Marina Oswald went to school +in Leningrad, formerly St. Petersburg prior to the revolution, and +a friend of mine, George Bouhe of Dallas, who is an accountant, was +born and raised in St. Petersburg. He indicated to me that he would +like to meet Marina Oswald and his fellow townswoman and townsman, so +I discussed it with my wife, and she thought she will invite Marina +Oswald and Lee Oswald and Mr. Bouhe, and a friend of Mr. Bouhe, Mrs. +Meller of Dallas, to their dinner. I am sure Paul was at home at that +time, so there were six of us at the dinner and my wife and my son. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us when the dinner was held? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes; it was before Paul went back to school so I assume it +was in the early party of September, maybe it was late in August. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Bouhe is a native born Russian? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes; he was born in St. Petersburg. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What about Mrs. Meller? + +Mr. GREGORY. I assume Mrs. Meller was born in Ukrania. + +Mr. LIEBELER. During this dinner party was there any discussion between +Mrs. Meller and Mr. Bouhe with the Oswalds concerning their background, +experiences in Russia? + +Mr. GREGORY. The conversation, as I recall it, centered mostly on St. +Petersburg. Bouhe brought with him his albums of St. Petersburg, and he +was asking her and they were both looking at the pictures, and is such +and such statue on the main street of St. Petersburg, and so on and so +forth. I think that was the gist of the conversation. + +They also discussed the present day life in the Soviet Union. I do +recall, the conversation was mostly with Marina, and she did not speak +any English at that time, so all of that conversation was in the +Russian language, which my wife does not understand at all. + +I remembered that Lee Oswald hazarded, he would interject into the +conversation, and he was a little bit critical of the attitude of the +Soviet Government toward its own people, and here is what I am trying +to say; he said they make the best shoes in Minsk for export, and +the people get the--and I think he indicated his own shoes, which he +still wore at that time. Then just very, very slight criticism, not +politically, but sort of in the sense of economics that the people were +not getting the best products, they were all for export. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, at that time was there any indication that Oswald +was better treated than other people in the Soviet Union or did you +maintain the impression throughout your acquaintance with Oswald that +he was treated similarly to other Russians? + +Mr. GREGORY. That was my impression, that he was treated the same as +other Russians. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you detect any friction between Marina Oswald and Lee +Oswald at this dinner? + +Mr. GREGORY. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any indication at that time that Lee Oswald had +beaten his wife in any way? + +Mr. GREGORY. Not at that time; no, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see any indication that Marina Oswald had +been beaten? + +Mr. GREGORY. No, sir; I haven't seen it personally. I have heard +reports from my friends that he did mistreat her physically, and that +he had blackened her eyes, and once even extinguished a cigarette on +her shoulder, something like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who told you that? + +Mr. GREGORY. To the best of my recollection it was either--I think it +was Bouhe or it could have been Mrs. Meller, but I believe it was Bouhe. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That was at a time subsequent to this dinner party? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir; subsequent. It was after the assassination of +the President. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That Bouhe told you? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald at all discuss the reason why he went to +Russia? + +Mr. GREGORY. No; he just told me, you know once, the very first time I +met him that he went there on his own. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate any desire to return to Russia? + +Mr. GREGORY. I learned subsequently that he did but he never indicated +it to me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald maintained contacts with +people that he had associated with in Russia? + +Mr. GREGORY. None to my knowledge. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know that he wrote them letters? + +Mr. GREGORY. No, sir. Excuse me, sir, when you asked me about his +relations with Marina Oswald, I don't know whether this is of any +importance or not, but during my first visit at their apartment +on Mercedes Street in Fort Worth, the second time I saw Marina, I +suggested to him that he should insist that she learn English as +quickly as possible because it would be so much easier for her to get +along in this country, and he replied that he would prefer that she +did not learn English at all or else he would lose his fluency in the +Russian language. + +So it showed to me that he didn't particularly care about her. He cared +more about himself. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you say anything to him in response to that? + +Mr. GREGORY. No, sir; I was frankly very much disgusted with that sort +of attitude. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever come to your office? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes, he came to my office once or twice more. Once I +was in the office when he came, and at that time, apparently he was +downtown, my office is downtown in Fort Worth, he brought with him some +typewritten sheets which he told me he was writing his memoirs of his +life in the Soviet Union. + +I remember seeing, I did not read the manuscripts at all, but I saw +some snapshots or photographs attached to some typewritten sheets. + +Mr. LIEBELER. During this time that you--did you have any other +contacts with Oswald? + +Mr. GREGORY. Well, he came to the office once more but I was not in the +office, my secretary told me that he came by. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what he came to your office for? Did he +indicate any particular reason for coming there? + +Mr. GREGORY. I don't recall. I don't know why he came back. Frankly, +I don't remember. Here is something else that--one of the newspaper +reporters came to the office and asked me if I would deliver a letter +to Oswald, a reporter who tried several times to contact Oswald and get +the story of his life or something like that, and they simply refused +to see him. Why he choose me, I don't know. How he learned that Oswald +came to my office, I don't know. But this man came and asked me to +deliver this letter to Oswald the next time he came to the office, and +I remember now that he did come once or twice more because I handed him +that letter, and Oswald took it and put it in his pocket. + +Representative FORD. When were these visits, the second and third +visits to your office? + +Mr. GREGORY. I would say that was probably during the month of July +1962. + +Representative FORD. 1962. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever ask you to help him work on a book? + +Mr. GREGORY. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That he was working on? + +Mr. GREGORY. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Other than these contacts we have discussed, did you have +any other contacts with Oswald ever? + +Mr. GREGORY. Well, I was at home when my son Paul answered a telephone +call from Lee Oswald and he asked if Paul would come to get them, I +guess they were at his brother's, they were going to Dallas, they moved +to Dallas by then, so it must have been in October or maybe it was---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was it Thanksgiving? + +Mr. GREGORY. It could have been Thanksgiving. It was Thanksgiving. +It was Thanksgiving Day. Paul went to Oswald, Robert Oswald, and +brought Marina and Lee Oswald and the baby to the house. He fixed +some sandwiches for them and he took them to the bus station and they +went to Dallas where they had already established residence. That +was the last time I saw Lee Oswald and Marina Oswald until after the +assassination of the President. + +Mr. LIEBELER. On the basis of your contacts with Lee Oswald during this +period of time, did you form any judgment of him? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir; I think I did. He impressed me as a man that, +first, he carried some sort of a chip on his shoulder. I also had the +impression that, probably unfounded on my part, I don't know, I just +formed that impression, that he, Lee Oswald, felt that he did not get +proper recognition from the people, say, in the United States, maybe +even in the Soviet Union. I don't know. In other words, I felt like he +thought that he was a better man than the other people thought he was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have the feeling that he desired to achieve +recognition? + +Mr. GREGORY. That is my distinct impression of him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any opinion as to whether he was ever able +to command this recognition and respect that he was seeking? + +Mr. GREGORY. I don't think so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he was an intelligent person? + +Mr. GREGORY. Fairly. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think he was capable of performing an act such as +an assassination of a President? + +Mr. GREGORY. Definitely. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What do you base that opinion on? + +Mr. GREGORY. Well, he was a Marine; he, as I said, he carried a chip +on his shoulder. From the best--from what I have read and so forth, I +personally am of the opinion that he assassinated the President. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Well now, based on your knowledge of him prior to the +assassination did you have any reason to believe that he might do such +a thing? + +Mr. GREGORY. Prior to that time, no, sir. I didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't regard him as a dangerous individual or +something of that sort, did you? + +Mr. GREGORY. Well, I thought he was--I did not think he was an +unbalanced person or crazy person or anything like that. I would say he +was sort of, I would say I thought he was sort of a peculiar person but +I never thought he would do an act like that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever make the acquaintance of the mother? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us about that? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. As I mentioned earlier, I teach Russian once a +week at the library. We started a new series of lessons on November +12, 1963, and in my class there was a lady by the name of Marguerite +Oswald. Frankly, I never connected her with Lee Oswald. Oswald was +just a name to me, and I did not learn about it until the day of the +assassination. Or the next day, the next day, that she was his mother. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mrs. Oswald call you on the telephone at any time +after the assassination? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. She called me---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about it? + +Mr. GREGORY. Sunday morning, November 24, about 7 o'clock in the +morning, from Dallas. + +Representative FORD. This is the mother called? + +Mr. GREGORY. The mother. Sunday morning about 7 o'clock in the morning, +and she said, I still remember, she said, "Mr. Gregory, I need your +help. The reporters, the news media were badgering me." I think that is +the word she used. She said, "I wonder if some of your friends or you +could provide a place for me to hide from them." And it sounded like +she was crying on the telephone, although I think that woman is not +taken to crying. + +So I told her--she did not want to identify herself when she called +me first. I asked her, I said, "Who are you?" And she said, "I would +rather not tell you who I am but I shall identify myself by saying I am +one of the students in the Russian class in the library." Of course, I +knew it was Mrs. Oswald. In fact, I guessed who she was before she even +tried to identify herself. So I told her, I said, "Now, I will tell you +what I will do, Mrs. Oswald, you stay where you are and I will promise +to you that I will come to see you sometime today." Of course, I knew +where she was because the Secret Service told me where they had her +before. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The Secret Service contacted you the day before? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. On Saturday? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Isn't it a fact they had asked you to come and translate +an interview with Marina Oswald? + +Mr. GREGORY. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't do it because you didn't need to do it +that day? + +Mr. GREGORY. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Lee Oswald that day? + +Mr. GREGORY. No, I did not see him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you later on Sunday go to see Mrs. Marguerite Oswald? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. As soon as I hung up the phone, I was talking to +Marguerite Oswald, I called the U.S. Secret Service and reported this +call, of course, and an agent, I called Agent Howard, who lives just +north of Fort Worth, and he said, "Well, that is fine, we will find a +hiding place for her, for Marguerite and Marina Oswald and the babies," +and he suggested he come by my house in a matter of 45 minutes or an +hour and we will go to Dallas and then proceed from there. And that is +what we did then. We went to Dallas. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You went to the Executive Inn where Marina and Mrs. +Oswald were staying at that time, is that right? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir; we went to the Executive Inn, and on the way +we stopped en route on the turnpike, where the agents arranged a +rendezvous with Robert Oswald and other agents, and we went to the +Executive Inn in Dallas by the airport, and Robert and I went in and +we told the women to pack up, that we were going to take them to, +Robert told them we were going to take them to, the farm of his wife's +parents, north of Fort Worth. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But Mrs. Oswald objected to that? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes, she objected, she said she didn't want to go there. +But I told her that she bothered me to come, to call me at the house to +provide a place for her and here I am, and if she doesn't like it then +I am just through with her. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You told her that? + +Mr. GREGORY. So she packed up and we got with the agents in two or +three cars, two cars, and we started toward that farm of Robert +Oswald's parents. But en route we detoured because Marguerite Oswald +mentioned the fact that the two little babies were all wet, and that +there were no diaper change for them, that Marina and she had no change +of dresses, and so forth, and she insisted that we go by Irving where +Marina lived with Ruth Paine. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Then you went and obtained some materials for the babies +there? + +Mr. GREGORY. Well, we didn't go to the house because we got the report +that Lee Oswald was shot. You see, that all happened Sunday morning, it +was 11 o'clock in the morning, we were driving from Dallas to Irving +and we got this report that Lee was shot, and the police advised us not +to go to the house because there was a mob, so we went to the Chief of +Police of Irving, to his residence. Marina telephoned Ruth Paine from +there to gather these things for the babies and a change of dress for +her and some money and so forth. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You went from there, then, to Parkland Hospital where +some events occurred and then you came back to the Inn of the Six Flags? + +Mr. GREGORY. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I want to ask you about something that might have +happened or happened at the Inn of the Six Flags. + +There has been a newspaper report, and Mrs. Marguerite Oswald has said +that on Saturday night an FBI agent came to the Executive Inn and +showed her a picture of a man who she claims to be Jack Ruby. Have you +seen newspaper reports to that effect? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes, I have seen reports to that effect. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mrs. Oswald says, also, that while at the Inn of the +Six Flags she observed a newspaper that had Jack Ruby's picture in it +and exclaimed in the presence of other people that that was the same +picture as the FBI had showed her, that is what she says. Did you ever +hear her say anything like that? + +Mr. GREGORY. No, sir; not to my recollection. + +Mr. LIEBELER. She never did anything like that in your presence? + +Mr. GREGORY. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After you met Mrs. Oswald, Marguerite Oswald, and had a +chance to observe her, did that further your judgment of Lee Harvey +Oswald in any way? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir. I felt that a lot of his, many of his, +peculiarities, possibly were brought on by the influence of his mother. + +To me, she impressed me as being not necessarily rational. She is +quite clever, but she certainly is most peculiar. She demands public +attention, she wants to be the center of attention. As, for example, +standing there in the middle of the room at the motel of that Six +Flags, standing in the middle of the room saying "I want to make a +statement," and she made those statements throughout the frequent +intervals and always she would precede the statement by saying, "I want +to make a statement. I feel that my son can't be buried anywhere but at +the Arlington National Cemetery." + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you detected similarities between Mrs. Oswald and Lee? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I felt they both craved public recognition or to be +craving attention or publicity or whatever you wish to call it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In our conversation last evening about your testimony, I +asked you about Mrs. Ruth Paine, and you told me that Mrs. Ruth Paine +had come to visit you at a time subsequent to the assassination. + +Mr. GREGORY. No, sir; she never did. Ruth Paine? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mr. GREGORY. No. She called me on the phone once. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Called on the telephone? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. But I have never met her. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was the conversation between you and her? + +Mr. GREGORY. She asked me if I would tutor her in writing letters in +Russian. If I remember, she mentioned that she either was going to +write to the Soviet Embassy or Soviet Union, something like that, but +I told her I was just too busy, I have no time for that. In fact, I +didn't want to have anything to do with that sort of--I didn't want to +write letters to the Soviet Union or to the Embassy or anybody else. + +Representative FORD. How long have you taught Russian, Mr. Gregory? + +Mr. GREGORY. In the library? + +Representative FORD. Yes. + +Mr. GREGORY. For approximately 3 or 4 years from 10 to 20 weeks a year. + +Representative FORD. Have you taught Russian in any other area or +capacity? + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir; I taught Russian a couple of years ago, not more +than 2 years ago, at Carswell Air Force Base at Fort Worth, where I had +a class of officers and men in the Russian language. With the result +that two out of my class passed the Russian examination, and the rest +flunked. + +Representative FORD. How long would you estimate it would normally +take for a person of average intelligence to learn to speak and write +Russian as fluently as Oswald did? + +Mr. GREGORY. If he lived in this country or in that country? That would +make a lot of difference. + +Representative FORD. Well, let's take this country first. + +Mr. GREGORY. This country. That would depend again on the effort put +out by the particular individual. If he were in earnest I would think +he could do it in about 4 years. + +Representative FORD. That is an ordinary person living in the United +States? + +Mr. GREGORY. Living in the United States. + +Representative FORD. Who made---- + +Mr. GREGORY. Going to study Russian, say at the university, normal +load, maybe 4 hours a week, plus homework, it would take about 4 years. + +If he lived in the country---- + +Representative FORD. In the Soviet Union? + +Mr. GREGORY. In the Soviet Union, he probably could do it in 2 or 3 +years. + +Representative FORD. Did Oswald tell you when he first visited you that +he had learned to speak Russian, where? + +Mr. GREGORY. In the Soviet Union. + +Representative FORD. He never gave you any indication he had learned or +studied prior to going to the Soviet Union? + +Mr. GREGORY. No, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have about one or two more questions. + +Did you discuss at any time with Marina Oswald the conversation that +she had with Lee Oswald after the assassination? + +Mr. GREGORY. Would you mind to state that again? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Marina Oswald spoke with Lee after the assassination, when he was in +the jail. + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you about that? + +Mr. GREGORY. Well, I don't remember whether it was Marina or whether +it was Marguerite Oswald. I don't remember now; they did go to see him +in the jail in the city of Dallas, and it must have been Marguerite +because she was bragging what a wonderful son he is because he looked +at the little girl, June, she is 2 years old, and he said, "You have +got to buy her a new pair of shoes," I remember that. It must have been +Marguerite because she used that as an illustration of what a wonderful +boy he was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Other than that, you have no information as to what +transpired at that time, happened at that time? + +Mr. GREGORY. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would it be fair to say, Mr. Gregory, that it was through +Oswald's contact with you that he subsequently made the association +with and contact with the other members of the Russian community in +Dallas and Fort Worth? + +Mr. GREGORY. I think that would be a fair statement, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have no more questions. + +The CHAIRMAN. Congressman? + +Representative FORD. I have one more, Mr. Gregory. + +I believe Marina has testified when she first met Lee Harvey Oswald it +was approximately 17 months after he had arrived in the Soviet Union. +She testified, also, that she could not tell whether he was a native +born resident of the Soviet Union or a foreigner by the way he spoke. + +Mr. GREGORY. Yes. + +Representative FORD. Is that unusual? + +Mr. GREGORY. Well, frankly. I don't know. You see, Congressman, the +city of Minsk is what we call, they call it, not we call, they call it +in the White Russia Republic. You know they called this the Union of +Republics, you know, in the White Russian Republic, and Minsk, I guess, +is the capital of it. + +It is fairly close to Poland, and there are all sorts of people, Poles, +Lithuanians, probably Latvians, that lived in that part of the country, +and none of those people speak pure Russian. + +Now, whether she had reference, whether that had anything to do with +her statement---- + +Representative FORD. Her observations? + +Mr. GREGORY. Right; I don't know. + +Now, I thought that Lee Oswald spoke with a Polish accent, that is why +I asked him if he was of Polish descent. + +Representative FORD. But leaving---- + +Mr. GREGORY. But, otherwise, I would say it would be rather unusual, +rather unusual for a person who lived in the Soviet Union for 17 months +that he would speak so well that a native Russian would not be sure +whether he was born in that country or not. + +Representative FORD. That would be a very unusual kind of a person? + +Mr. GREGORY. It would be, yes. + +Representative FORD. Or a person who had unusual training? + +Mr. GREGORY. Right, or unusual ability or training, yes, that is right. + +Representative FORD. That is all, Mr. Chairman. + +The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Gregory. You have been very +helpful. + +(Whereupon, at 1 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +_Monday, March 16, 1964_ + +TESTIMONY OF COMDR. JAMES J. HUMES, COMDR. J. THORNTON BOSWELL, AND LT. +COL. PIERRE A. FINCK + +The President's Commission met at 2 p.m. on March 16, 1964, at 200 +Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. + +Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman +Cooper, Representative Gerald R. Ford, John J. McCloy, and Allen W. +Dulles, members. + +Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Francis W. H. Adams, +assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Arlen Specter, +assistant counsel; and Charles Murray, observer. + + +TESTIMONY OF COMDR. JAMES J. HUMES + +The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. + +Commander Humes, will you please step up. You know, Commander, what +we have met for today to take your testimony concerning the autopsy +and anything else you might know concerning the assassination of the +President. + +Would you raise your right hand, please? + +Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission +will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help +you God? + +Commander HUMES. I do. + +The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated? + +You may proceed. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Humes, will you state your full name for the record, +please? + +Commander HUMES. James Joseph Humes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is your profession or occupation, please? + +Commander HUMES. I am a physician and employed by the Medical +Department of the United States Navy. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your rank in the Navy? + +Commander HUMES. Commander, Medical Corps. United States Navy. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where did you receive your education, Commander Humes, +please. + +Commander HUMES. I had my undergraduate training at St. Joseph's +College at Villanova University in Philadelphia. I received my medical +degree in 1948 from the Jefferson Medical College of Philadelphia. + +I received my internship and my postgraduate training in my special +field of interest in Pathology in various Naval hospitals, and at the +Armed Forces Institute of Pathology at Walter Reed in Washington, D.C. + +Mr. SPECTER. What do your current duties involve? + +Commander HUMES. My current title is Director of Laboratories of the +Naval Medical School at Naval Medical Center at Bethesda. I am charged +with the responsibility of the overall supervision of all of the +laboratory operations in the Naval medical center, two broad areas, one +in the field of anatomic pathology which comprises examining surgical +specimens and postmortem examinations and then the rather large field +of clinical pathology which takes in examination of the blood and +various body fluids. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you been certified by the American Board of Pathology? + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; both in anatomic pathology and in clinical +pathology in 1955. + +Mr. SPECTER. What specific experience have you had, if any, with +respect to gunshot wounds? + +Commander HUMES. My type of practice, which fortunately has been in +peacetime endeavor to a great extent, has been more extensive in the +field of natural disease than violence. However, on several occasions +in various places where I have been employed, I have had to deal with +violent death, accidents, suicides, and so forth. Also I have had +training at the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, I have completed +a course in forensic pathology there as part of my training in the +overall field of pathology. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to participate in the autopsy of the +late John F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963? + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. SPECTER. What was your specific function in connection with that +autopsy? + +Commander HUMES. As the senior pathologist assigned to the Naval +Medical Center, I was called to the Center by my superiors and informed +that the President's body would be brought to our laboratories for an +examination, and I was charged with the responsibility of conducting +and supervising this examination; told to also call upon anyone whom I +wished as an assistant in this matter, that I deemed necessary to be +present. + +Mr. SPECTER. Who did assist you, if anyone, in the course of the +autopsy? + +Commander HUMES. My first assistant was Commander J. Thornton Boswell, +whose position is Chief of Pathology at the Naval Medical School, and +my other assistant was Lt. Col. Pierre Finck, who is in the wound +ballistics section of the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology. + +When I ascertained the nature of the President's wounds, having had +the facilities of the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology offered to +me by General Blumberg, the commanding officer of that institution, I +felt it advisable and would be of help to me to have the services of an +expert in the field of wound ballistics and for that reason I requested +Colonel Finck to appear. + +Mr. SPECTER. Tell us who else in a general way was present at the time +the autopsy was conducted in addition to you three doctors, please? + +Commander HUMES. This, I must preface by saying it will be somewhat +incomplete. My particular interest was on the examination of the +President and not of the security measures of the other people who were +present. + +However, the Surgeon General of the Navy was present at one time or +another. Admiral Galloway, the Commanding Officer of the National Naval +Medical Center; my own commanding officer, Captain John H. Stover of +the Naval Medical School, Dr. John Ebersole, one of the radiologists +assigned to the Naval Hospital, Bethesda, who assisted with X-ray +examinations which were made. These are the chief names, sir; that I +can recall. + +Mr. SPECTER. What time did the autopsy start approximately? + +Commander HUMES. The president's body was received at 25 minutes before +8, and the autopsy began at approximately 8 p.m. on that evening. +You must include the fact that certain X-rays and other examinations +were made before the actual beginning of the routine type autopsy +examination. + +Mr. SPECTER. Precisely what X-rays or photographs were taken before the +dissection started? + +Commander HUMES. Some of these X-rays were taken before and some during +the examination, which also maintains for the photographs, which were +made as the need became apparent to make such. + +However, before the postmortem examination was begun, anterior, +posterior and lateral X-rays of the head, and of the torso were made, +and identification type photographs, I recall having been made of the +full face of the late President. A photograph showing the massive +head wound with the large defect that was associated with it. To my +recollection all of these were made before the proceedings began. + +Several others, approximately 15 to 20 in number, were made in total +before we finished the proceedings. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now were those X-rays or photographs or both when you +referred to the total number? + +Commander HUMES. By the number I would say they are in number 15 to 20. +There probably was ten or 12 X-ray films exposed in addition. + +Mr. SPECTER. What time did this autopsy end? + +Commander HUMES. At approximately 11 p.m. + +Mr. SPECTER. What wounds did you observe on the late President, if any? + +Commander HUMES. The wounds which we observed on the President +were--excuse me, at this point might I use the charts which I have +prepared? + +Would that be appropriate? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes; would you like to start with the neck wound? + +Commander HUMES. All right, sir. + +I might preface my remarks by stating that the President's body was +received in our morgue in a closed casket. We opened the casket, Dr. +Boswell and I, and the President's body was unclothed in the casket, +was wrapped in a sheet labeled by the Parkland Hospital, but he was +unclothed once the sheet was removed from his body so we do not have at +that time any clothing. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Humes, before you identify what that represents let me +place Commission Exhibit No. 385 on it so it may be identified. + +(The drawing was marked Commission Exhibit No. 385 for identification.) + +Commander HUMES. When appraised of the necessity for our appearance +before this Commission, we did not know whether or not the photographs +which we had made would be available to the Commission. So to assist in +making our testimony more understandable to the Commission members, we +decided to have made drawings, schematic drawings, of the situation as +we saw it, as we recorded it and as we recall it. These drawings were +made under my supervision and that of Dr. Boswell by Mr. Rydberg, whose +initials are H. A. He is a hospital corpsman, second class, and a +medical illustrator in our command at Naval Medical School. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you provide him with the basic information from which +these drawings were made? + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Distances, that sort of thing? + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. We had made certain physical measurements of +the wounds, and of their position on the body of the late President, +and we provided these and supervised directly Mr. Rydberg in making +these drawings. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you checked the drawings subsequent to their +preparation to verify their accuracy? + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And proportion? + +Commander HUMES. I must state these drawings are in part schematic. +The artist had but a brief period of some 2 days to prepare these. +He had no photographs from which to work, and had to work under our +description, verbal description, of what we had observed. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would it be helpful to the artist, in redefining the +drawings if that should become necessary, to have available to him the +photographs or X-rays of the President? + +Commander HUMES. If it were necessary to have them absolutely true to +scale. I think it would be virtually impossible for him to do this +without the photographs. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is the reason for the necessity for having the +photographs? + +Commander HUMES. I think that it is most difficult to transmit into +physical measurements the--by word the--exact situation as it was seen +to the naked eye. The photographs were--there is no problem of scale +there because the wounds, if they are changed in size or changed in +size and proportion to the structures of the body and so forth, when +we attempt to give a description of these findings, it is the bony +prominences, I cannot, which we used as points of references, I cannot, +transmit completely to the illustrator where they were situated. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is the taking of photographs and X-rays routine or is this +something out of the ordinary? + +Commander HUMES. No, sir; this is quite routine in cases of this sort +of violent death in our training. In the field of forensic pathology +we have found that the photographs and X-rays are of most value, the +X-rays particularly in finding missiles which have a way of going +in different directions sometimes, and particularly as documentary +evidence these are considered invaluable in the field of forensic +pathology. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you now proceed to show us what Commission Exhibit +385 depicts, please? + +Commander HUMES. Actually, I think, sir, at this time the view from the +posterior aspect would also be of value to the Commission. + +This is---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Doctor, I hand you the second exhibit which is marked +Commission Exhibit No. 386. + +(Commission Exhibit No. 386 was marked for identification.) + +Commander HUMES. I believe at this point I would like to have, if you +have my gross autopsy description because I will give the dimensions of +these wounds at this time. + +Mr. SPECTER. We will use the Commission Exhibit No. 387 and I will ask +you first of all, for the record, to identify what this document is, +Dr. Humes. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 387 for +identification.) + +Commander HUMES. This document is a copy of the gross autopsy report +which was prepared by myself, Dr. Boswell, and Dr. Finck, and completed +within approximately 48 hours after the assassination of the President. + +Mr. SPECTER. Does that report bear your signature at its end? + +Commander HUMES. It bears my signature on the first or covering page as +well as on my last page, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you now proceed to tell us what you observed with +respect to the wound which is marked as appearing in the upper back or +lower neck? + +Mr. McCLOY. Have you identified that? + +Mr. SPECTER. The one on the side is 385 and the one of the rear view is +386. And that one is 387. For purposes of our record, if you will, put +them in as 385 and 386 for our printed record. You might want to put +them in chalk above them so you will see the one on the left is 385 and +on the right is 386. + +Commander HUMES. These exhibits again are schematic representations +of what we observed at the time of examining the body of the late +President. + +Exhibit 385 shows in the low neck an oval wound which--excuse me, I +wish to get the measurements correct. This wound was situated just +above the upper border of the scapula, and measured 7 by 4 millimeters, +with its long axis roughly parallel to the long axis of vertical column. + +We saw--I would rather not discuss the situation of the anterior neck +at this time or would you prefer it? + +Mr. SPECTER. How would you prefer to do it, Dr. Humes? + +Commander HUMES. I would prefer to discuss the wounds, two wounds, we +saw posteriorly and the wound, other wound, of the skull before going +to that. + +Mr. SPECTER. That is fine, Dr. Humes, do it any way you find +convenient. I will give you the other drawing and you can do them both +together. Let the third drawing be marked as Commission Exhibit No. 388. + +(The drawing referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 388 for +identification.) + +Commander HUMES. The wound in the low neck of which I had previously +begun to speak is now posteriorly--is now depicted in 385, in 386 and +in 388. + +The second wound was found in the right posterior portion of the scalp. +This wound was situated approximately 2.5 centimeters to the right, +and slightly above the external occipital protuberance which is a bony +prominence situated in the posterior portion of everyone's skull. This +wound was then 2-1/2 centimeters to the right and slightly above that +point. + +The third obvious wound at the time of the examination was a huge +defect over the right side of the skull. This defect involved both +the scalp and the underlying skull, and from the brain substance was +protruding. + +This wound measured approximately 13 centimeters in greatest diameter. +It was difficult to measure accurately because radiating at various +points from the large defect were multiple crisscrossing fractures of +the skull which extended in several directions. + +I have noted in my report that a detailed description of the lines of +these fractures and of the types of fragments that were thus made were +very difficult of verbal description, and it was precisely for this +reason that the photographs were made so one might appreciate more +clearly how much damage had been done to the skull. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were the photographs made available then, Dr. Humes, when +Exhibit 388 was prepared? + +Commander HUMES. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. + +Commander HUMES. The photographs, to go back a moment, the photographs +and the X-rays were exposed in the morgue of the Naval Medical Center +on this night, and they were not developed, neither the X-rays or the +photographs. They were submitted to the, and here, if I make a mistake +I am not certain, to either the Federal Bureau of Investigation or to +the Secret Service, I am not sure of those. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you submit those yourself immediately after they were +taken, Dr. Humes? + +Commander HUMES. Again, one of the senior people present, I believe +my own Commanding Officer, Captain Stover, took care of turning this +material over to these authorities, and receiving a receipt for this +information, for this material. It was--I supervised the positioning of +the body for various of these examinations but as far as beyond that, I +did not consider that my responsibility. + +These, then, were the three wounds which were quite obvious at the time +of the examination. + +I could expand further on the general appearances of these wounds or I +could turn to the anterior portion of the body and describe various +other wounds which were present. + +Mr. SPECTER. You were focusing on 388 before I last asked a question, +Dr. Humes. Why don't you describe in general terms the nature of the +wound which was present at the top of the head of the late President? + +Commander HUMES. With your permission, sir, and Mr. Chief Justice, I +think I might describe those two wounds together, and describe the +defects in the scalp and in the skull in each instance. + +Mr. SPECTER. That would be fine. + +Commander HUMES. Would that be appropriate? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes. + +Commander HUMES. Turning now to Commission Exhibit 388, where we have +depicted in the posterior right portion of the skull a wound which we +have labeled "in" or a wound of entrance and a large roughly 13 cm. +diameter defect in the right lateral vertex of the skull. I would go +into some further detail in describing these wounds. + +The scalp, I mentioned previously, there was a defect in the scalp and +some scalp tissue was not available. However, the scalp was intact +completely past this defect. In other words, this wound in the right +posterior region was in a portion of scalp which had remained intact. + +So, we could see that it was the measurement which I gave before, I +believe 15 by 6 millimeters. + +When one reflected the scalp away from the skull in this region, there +was a corresponding defect through both tables of the skull in this +area. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe what you mean by both tables, Dr. Humes? + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. + +The skull is composed of two layers of bone. We will put the scalp in +in dotted lines. + +The two solid lines will represent the two layers of the skull bone, +and in between these two layers is loose somewhat irregular bone. + +When we reflected the scalp, there was a through and through defect +corresponding with the wound in the scalp. + +This wound had to us the characteristics of a wound of entrance for the +following reason: The defect in the outer table was oval in outline, +quite similar to the defect in the skin. + +Mr. SPECTER. You are referring there, Doctor, to the wound on the lower +part of the neck? + +Commander HUMES. No, sir; I am speaking here of the wound in the +occiput. + +The wound on the inner table, however, was larger and had what in +the field of wound ballistics is described as a shelving or a coning +effect. To make an analogy to which the members of the Commission are +probably most familiar, when a missile strikes a pane of glass, a +typical example, a B-B fired by a child's air rifle, when this strikes +a pane of glass there will be a small, usually round to oval defect on +the side of the glass from whence the missile came and a belled-out or +coned-out surface on the opposite side of the glass from whence the +missile came. + +(At this point, Mr. Dulles entered the hearing room.) + +Commander HUMES. Experience has shown and my associates and Colonel +Finck, in particular, whose special field of interest is wound +ballistics can give additional testimony about this scientifically +observed fact. + +This wound then had the characteristics of wound of entrance from this +direction through the two tables of the skull. + +Mr. SPECTER. When you say "this direction," will you specify that +direction in relationship to the skull? + +Commander HUMES. At that point I mean only from without the skull to +within. + +Mr. SPECTER. Fine, proceed. + +Commander HUMES. Having ascertained to our satisfaction and +incidentally photographs illustrating this phenomenon from both the +external surface of the skull and from the internal surface were +prepared, we concluded that the large defect to the upper right side of +the skull, in fact, would represent a wound of exit. + +A careful examination of the margins of the large bone defect at that +point, however, failed to disclose a portion of the skull bearing again +a wound of--a point of impact on the skull of this fragment of the +missile, remembering, of course, that this area was devoid of any scalp +or skull at this present time. We did not have the bone. + +In further evaluating this head wound, I will refer back to the X-rays +which we had previously prepared. These had disclosed to us multiple +minute fragments of radio opaque material traversing a line from +the wound in the occiput to just above the right eye, with a rather +sizable fragment visible by X-ray just above the right eye. These tiny +fragments that were seen dispersed through the substance of the brain +in between were, in fact, just that extremely minute, less than 1 mm. +in size for the most part. + +(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Humes, this would be a good juncture to produce two +photographs. + +May it please the Commission, Mr. Chief Justice Warren, I have +identified as Commission Exhibits 389 and 390 which will at a later +time be identified as being two frames from the motion picture camera +operated by one Abraham Zapruder, being the amateur photographer who +was on the scene, which I think would assist in evaluating the angle of +the President's head corresponding to that exhibit designated as 388. + +I will hand those to you, Dr. Humes, and ask you if you would state for +the record the relative position of the President's head in 389 which +is a frame about one-sixteenth of a second before the point of impact +shown in Exhibit 390. + +(The frames referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 389 and +390 for identification.) + +Commander HUMES. It will be noted in Exhibit 389 that the President's +head is bent considerably forward and perhaps somewhat to the left in +this frame of the photograph 389. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is that in approximately the same position as the angle of +the head depicted in Commission Exhibit No. 388? + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; it is. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, at this time I would like to move for +admission in evidence of Exhibits 385 through 390. + +The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted under those numbers. + +(Commission Exhibits Nos. 385, 386, 387, 388, 389, and 390, previously +marked for identification, were received in evidence.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you proceed now, Dr. Humes, to continue in your +description of the head wound? + +Commander HUMES. Head wound--a careful inspection of this large defect +in the scalp and skull was made seeking for fragments of missile before +any actual detection was begun. The brain was greatly lacerated and +torn, and in this area of the large defect we did not encounter any of +these minute particles. + +I might say at this time that the X-ray pictures which were made would +have a tendency to magnify these minute fragments somewhat in size and +we were not too surprised in not being able to find the tiny fragments +depicted in the X-ray. + +Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how many fragments were observed, Dr. Humes, +on the X-ray? + +Commander HUMES. I would have to refer to them again, but I would say +between 30 or 40 tiny dust-like particle fragments of radio opaque +material, with the exception of this one I previously mentioned which +was seen to be above and very slightly behind the right orbit. + +Mr. DULLES. Were these all fragments that were injected into the skull +by the bullet? + +Commander HUMES. Our interpretation is, sir, that the missile struck +the right occipital region, penetrated through the two tables of the +skull, making the characteristic coning on the inner table which I have +previously referred to. That one portion of the missile and judging by +the size of the defect thus produced, the major portion of the missile, +made its exit through this large defect. + +A second portion of the missile or multiple second portions were +deflected, and traversed a distance as enumerated by this interrupted +line, with the major portion of that fragment coming to lodge in the +position indicated. + +Perhaps some of these minor fragments were dislodged from the major one +as it traversed this course. + +To better examine the situation with regard to the skull, at this time, +Dr. Boswell and I extended the lacerations of the scalp which were +at the margins of this wound, down in the direction of both of the +President's ears. At that point, we had even a better appreciation of +the extensive damage which had been done to the skull by this injury. + +We had to do virtually no work with a saw to remove these portions of +the skull, they came apart in our hands very easily, and we attempted +to further examine the brain, and seek specifically this fragment which +was the one we felt to be of a size which would permit us to recover it. + +Mr. SPECTER. When you refer to this fragment, and you are pointing +there, are you referring to the fragment depicted right above the +President's right eye? + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; above and somewhat behind the President's +eye. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you proceed, then, to tell us what you did then? + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. We dissected carefully in this region and in +fact located this small fragment, which was in a defect in the brain +tissue in just precisely this location. + +Mr. SPECTER. How large was that fragment, Dr. Humes? + +Commander HUMES. I refer to my notes for the measurements of that +fragment. + +I find in going back to my report, sir, that we found, in fact, two +small fragments in this approximate location. The larger of these +measured 7 by 2 mm., the smaller 3 by 1 mm. + +To make my presentation of this wound of the skull more logical to the +Commission, I would like to go forward in time that evening to at a +later hour. I apologize--time and what happened exactly at what moment +escapes me at this time. + +I mentioned previously that there was a large bony defect. Some time +later on that evening or very early the next morning while we were all +still engaged in continuing our examination, I was presented with three +portions of bone which had been brought to Washington from Dallas by +the agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. + +These were---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Might that have been by a Secret Service agent? + +Commander HUMES. It could be, sir; these things---- + +Mr. SPECTER. At any rate, someone presented these three pieces of bone +to you? + +Commander HUMES. Someone presented these three pieces of bone to me, I +do not recall specifically their statement as to where they had been +recovered. + +It seems to me they felt it had been recovered either in the street or +in the automobile, I don't recall specifically. + +We were most interested in these fragments of bone, and found that the +three pieces could be roughly put together to account for a portion of +this defect. + +Mr. SPECTER. How much remained unaccounted for, Dr. Humes? + +Commander HUMES. I would estimate that approximately one-quarter +of that defect was unaccounted for by adding these three fragments +together and seeing what was left. + +This is somewhat difficult, because as back to when we were actually +looking for the fragments of metal, as we moved the scalp about, +fragments of various sizes would fall to the table, and so forth, so it +was difficult to put that exact figure into words. + +However, the thing which we considered of importance about these three +fragments of bone was that at the margins of one of them which was +roughly pyramidal in shape, there was a portion of the circumference +of what we interpreted as a missile wound. We thus interpreted it this +because there was, the size was, sufficiently large for us, for it to +have the curve of the skull still evident. At the point of this defect, +and I will draw both tables of the bone in this defect, at the area +which we interpreted as the margin of a missile wound, there was a +shelving of the margin. + +This would, to us, mean that a missile had made this wound from within +the skull to the exterior. To confirm that this was a missile wound, +X-rays were made of that fragment of bone, which showed radio-opaque +material consistent and similar in character to the particles seen +within the skull to be deposited in the margins of this defect, in this +portion of the bone. + +Mr. SPECTER. Then what conclusion did you reach as to what caused that +hole reconstructed from the three portions of the late President's +scalp? + +Commander HUMES. We reached the conclusion a missile entered the +left--the right posterior inferior portion---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Doctor, perhaps it would be helpful if you would refer +to that as letter "A" and the exit as letter "B", so that the record +is clear on those two points and perhaps it will be helpful to your +description as well. + +And would you mark them as well, with a pencil? + +Commander HUMES. That is not entry for the second. + +Mr. SPECTER. Exit for the second? + +Commander HUMES. I will label 388 with the letter "A" to indicate our +opinion as to the wound of entrance into the skull. + +I will label as Point "B" the area of exit of a portion of the missile +that entered posteriorly. I say a portion because a small fragment was +seen in the position previously noted which was recovered. + +However, we concluded that a very significant portion, perhaps the +largest portion, made its exit and accounted for this very large defect +for the multiple fractures of the skull and for the loss of brain and +scalp tissue at this point. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe at this juncture the damage which was +inflicted upon the brain, please? + +Commander HUMES. May I refer at this point to the gross description of +the brain prepared separately? + +Mr. SPECTER. Certainly, Dr. Humes, if you prefer to do it in that order. + +Commander HUMES. I believe you have that. It is the second portion of +the report. + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir. I can make that available to you here. + +Commander HUMES. While that is being provided, when we reflected the +scalp away from the badly damaged skull, and removed some of these +loosened portions of skull bone, we were able to see this large defect +in the right cerebral hemisphere. It corresponded roughly in size with +the greatest diameter of the defect in the scalp measuring some 13 cm. + +Mr. SPECTER. May the record now show I am handing to you, Dr. Humes, an +exhibit marked Commission Exhibit 391, and will you identify what that +is, please, Doctor? + +Commander HUMES. Exhibit 391 is listed as a supplementary report on the +autopsy of the late President Kennedy, and was prepared some days after +the examination. + +This delay necessitated by, primarily, our desire to have the brain +better fixed with formaldehyde before we proceeded further with the +examination of the brain which is a standard means of approach to study +of the brain. + +The brain in its fresh state does not lend itself well to examination. + +From my notes of the examination, at the time of the post-mortem +examination, we noted that clearly visible in the large skull defect +and exuding from it was lacerated brain tissue which, on close +inspection proved to represent the major portion of the right cerebral +hemisphere. + +We also noted at this point that the flocculus cerebri was extensively +lacerated and that the superior sagittal sinus which is a venous blood +containing channel in the top of the meninges was also lacerated. + +To continue to answer your question with regard to the damage of the +brain, following the formal infixation, Dr. Boswell, Dr. Finck and I +convened to examine the brain in this state. + +We also prepared photographs of the brain from several aspects to +depict the extent of these injuries. + +We found that the right cerebral hemisphere was markedly disrupted. +There was a longitudinal laceration of the right hemisphere which was +parasagittal in position. By the saggital plane, as you may know, is a +plane in the midline which would divide the brain into right and left +halves. + +This laceration was parasagittal. It was situated approximately 2.5 cm. +to the right of the midline, and extended from the tip of occipital +lobe, which is the posterior portion of the brain, to the tip of the +frontal lobe which is the most anterior portion of the brain, and it +extended from the top down to the substance of the brain a distance of +approximately 5 or 6 cm. + +The base of the laceration was situated approximately 4.5 cm. below the +vertex in the white matter. By the vertex we mean--the highest point on +the skull is referred to as the vertex. + +The area in which the greatest loss of brain substance was particularly +in the parietal lobe, which is the major portion of the right cerebral +hemisphere. + +The margins of this laceration at all points were jagged and irregular, +with additional lacerations extending in varying directions and for +varying distances from the main laceration. + +In addition, there was a laceration of the corpus callosum which is a +body of fibers which connects the two hemispheres of the brain to each +other, which extended from the posterior to the anterior portion of +this structure, that is the corpus callosum. Exposed in this laceration +were portions of the ventricular system in which the spinal fluid +normally is disposed within the brain. + +When viewed from above the left cerebral hemisphere was intact. There +was engorgement of blood vessels in the meninges covering the brain. We +note that the gyri and sulci, which are the convolutions of the brain +over the left hemisphere were of normal size and distribution. + +Those on the right were too fragmented and distorted for satisfactory +description. + +When the brain was turned over and viewed from its basular or inferior +aspect, there was found a longitudinal laceration of the mid-brain +through the floor of the third ventricle, just behind the optic chiasma +and the mammillary bodies. + +This laceration partially communicates with an oblique 1.5 cm. tear +through the left cerebral peduncle. This is a portion of the brain +which connects the higher centers of the brain with the spinal cord +which is more concerned with reflex actions. + +There were irregular superficial lacerations over the basular or +inferior aspects of the left temporal and frontal lobes. We interpret +that these later contusions were brought about when the disruptive +force of the injury pushed that portion of the brain against the +relative intact skull. + +This has been described as contre-coup injury in that location. + +This, then, I believe, Mr. Specter, are the major points with regard to +the President's head wound. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an opinion, Dr. Humes, as to whether there +were dumdum bullets used specifically on this wound which struck point +"A" of the head, on 388? + +Commander HUMES. I believe these were not dumdum bullets, Mr. Specter. +A dumdum bullet is a term that has been used to describe various +missiles which have a common characteristic of fragmenting extensively +upon striking. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you characterize the resultant effect on this bullet +as not extensive fragmenting? + +Commander HUMES. Yes. Had this wound on point "A" on Exhibit 388 been +inflicted by a dumdum bullet, I would anticipate that it would not have +anything near the regular contour and outline which it had. I also +would anticipate that the skull would have been much more extensively +disrupted, and not have, as was evident in this case, a defect which +quite closely corresponded to the overlying skin defect because that +type of a missile would fragment on contact and be much more disruptive +at this point. + +Mr. SPECTER. At this point would you state for the record the size and +approximate dimension of the major wound on the top of the head which +you have marked wound "B"? + +Commander HUMES. This was so large, that localization of it in a +descriptive way is somewhat difficult. + +However, we have mentioned that its major--its greatest dimension +was approximately 13 cm. The reason it was difficult to measure is +that various fracture lines extend out from it in a quite irregular +fashion, but it was approximately 13 cm. + +Mr. McCLOY. This red that is marked on 388 on the base of the skull, is +that seepage or what? + +Commander HUMES. No, sir; that is to depict the musculature at the base +of the neck. + +Mr. McCLOY. I see. + +Commander HUMES. That is not taken to depict the blood, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. On the reconstruction of the three portions of the scalp +which you described---- + +Commander HUMES. Skull, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Skull, which enabled you to reconstruct a point of exit +of the bullet, will you state at this point of the record that size of +opening or exit path of the bullet? + +Commander HUMES. As I mentioned previously, at one angle of this +largest pyramidal shaped fragments of bone which came as a separate +specimen, we had the portion of the perimeter of a roughly what we +would judge to have been a roughly circular wound of exit. Judging from +that portion of the perimeter which was available to us, we would have +judged the diameter of that wound to be between 2.5 and 3 cm. + +Mr. SPECTER. Doctor Humes, have you now described the major +characteristics and features of the wounds to the late President's head? + +Commander HUMES. I believe that I have, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. All right. Will you now turn your attention, please to the +wound which is noted on 385 and 386 being at the---- + +Mr. McCLOY. Before we leave that, could I ask a question? + +When you talk about dumdum bullets, do you include the ordinary type +of soft nose sporting bullets, maybe this is something that Colonel +Finck would be more expert on, but was that, was the bullet, could it +possibly have been a sporting type of hunting bullet that has a soft +nose but is still somewhat firm? + +Commander HUMES. From the characteristics of this wound, Mr. McCloy, I +would believe that it must have had a very firm head rather than a soft +head. + +Mr. McCLOY. Steel jacketed, would you say, copper jacketed bullet? + +Commander HUMES. I believe more likely a jacketed bullet because of the +regular outline which was present. + +Mr. McCLOY. All right. + +Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question? + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dulles. + +Mr. DULLES. Believing that we know the type of bullet that was usable +in this gun, would this be the type of wound that might result from +that kind of a bullet? + +Commander HUMES. I believe so, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. If my question is clear---- + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; it is. + +Mr. DULLES. We think we know what the bullet is, we may be wrong but we +think we know what it was, is this wound consistent with that type of +bullet? + +Commander HUMES. Quite consistent, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. There is no evidence of any keyholing of the bullet before +it hit, before the point of impact? + +Commander HUMES. I don't exactly follow your question. + +Mr. McCLOY. Was the bullet moving in a direct line or had it begun to +tumble? + +Commander HUMES. To tumble? + +That is a difficult question to answer. I have the opinion, however, +that it was more likely moving in a direct line. You will note that +the wound in the posterior portion of the occiput on Exhibit 388 +is somewhat longer than the other missile wound which we have not +yet discussed in the low neck. We believe that rather than due to a +tumbling effect, this is explainable on the fact that this missile +struck the skin and skull at a more tangential angle than did the other +missile, and, therefore, produced a more elongated defect, sir. + +Senator COOPER. May I ask a question there? Perhaps you have done +this, but if not, how would you explain the difference of the courses +of the fragments which you traced and described as, I think, being +discovered behind the right eye? + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. And the course of the fragment which was believed +caused the large defect? + +Commander HUMES. Caused the large defect? + +Senator COOPER. How do you explain---- + +Commander HUMES. The discrepancy? + +Senator COOPER. The difference in the courses. + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. + +As this missile penetrated the scalp, it then came upon a very firm +substance, the hard skull, and I believe that this track depicted by +the dotted lines on Exhibit 388 was a portion of that missile which was +dislodged as it made its defect in the skull. And that--that another +portion, and, as I say, presumably, by the size of the defect, a more +major portion made its exit through the right lateral side of the skull. + +Mr. McCLOY. Is this piece of pyramidal bone that was brought in to you +subsequently as I understand it---- + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. Was that part of the outer table or the inner table? + +Commander HUMES. It was both tables, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. Both tables? + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; had it only been one it might have been +difficult to ascertain whether it was. + +Mr. McCLOY. Shelving or not? + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; in or out, but it encompassed both tables, +sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Is the angle of declination that you--one sees there from +in and out approximately the angle you think at which the bullet was +traveling at the time of impact and exit? + +Commander HUMES. That is our impression, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. So then the shot would have been fired from some point +above the head of the person hit? + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Humes, would you elaborate a bit on the differences in +the paths, specifically why the bullet went in one direction in part +and in part in the second direction, terminating with the fragment +right over the right eye? + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. + +I will make a drawing of the posterior portion of the skull showing +again this beveling which we observed at the inner table of the skull. + +Our impression is that as this projectile impinged upon the skull in +this fashion, a small portion of it was dislodged due to the energy +expended in that collision, if you will, and that it went off at an +angle, and left the track which is labeled 388, which is labeled on +Exhibit 388 from "A", point "A" to the point where the fragment was +found behind the eye. + +Why a fragment takes any particular direction like that is something +which is difficult of scientific explanation. Those of us who have seen +missiles strike bones, be it the skull or a bone in the extremity, +have long since learned that portions of these missiles may go off in +various directions and the precise physical laws governing them are not +clearly understood. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would the angle be accentuated in any way if you were +to assume the President was in a moving automobile going in a slight +downhill direction? + +Commander HUMES. There are many variables under these circumstances. +The most--the crucial point, I believe, to be the relative position of +the President's head in relation to the flight of the missile. + +Now, this would be influenced by how far his head was bent, by the +situation with regard to the level of the seat in the vehicle, off of +the horizontal, and so forth. + +Mr. SPECTER. How about a decline in the path of the road itself? + +Commander HUMES. I think that that would have a tendency to accentuate +this angle, yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, I would like to move for the admission +in evidence now of Exhibit 391, which is the exhibit on the brain +report. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission +Exhibit No. 391 was received in evidence.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Humes, would you now move over to the wound which +appears on the lower part of the neck and upper part of the back? + +Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one more question before we get to that, I am +sorry. + +Mr. SPECTER. Certainly. + +Mr. DULLES. Could one say as to what portion of the bullet was found in +all these fragments, I mean arrive at an estimate, was it a tenth of +the bullet, was it, how much was it, assuming the type of bullet that +we believe was used in this particular rifle. + +Commander HUMES. Sir, I have not had the opportunity to personally +examine the type of bullet which is believed to have been represented +by this injury. + +However, I would estimate--if I understand you correctly the total +amount that was present in the President's skull and brain? + +Mr. DULLES. Yes. + +Commander HUMES. Including the fragment? + +Mr. DULLES. Including all the fragments. + +Commander HUMES. Including all these minute particles. I would say +there was something less than one-tenth of the total volume of the +missile. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Humes, do you make that calculation on the assumption +that the bullets used here were 6.5 mm. Mannlicher-Carcano rifle bullet +weighing 158.6 grams? + +Commander HUMES. Yes, I do; sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Had I brought that particular fact to your attention prior +to the time you started testifying here today? + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. One point I intended to make clear these +fragments which I recovered from this position were turned over to the +Secret Service. + +I presume that they have made physical measurements including the +weight of them, and could give a much more intelligent estimate of +the proportion than I. I would say, however, that we did not deliver +these minute fragments because they were so small as to be essentially +unrecoverable. + +So, obviously they were of a very small portion of the major missile. + +Mr. DULLES. These minute fragments were part of the bullet, emanations +from the bullet? + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. They were not from the head? + +Commander HUMES. No, sir, they were small, dust, of the size of dust +particles, however. + +Mr. DULLES. Is the posture of the head of that figure there, the +inclination of it, roughly the inclination that you think the +President's head had at the time from the other photographs? + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. From the photographs and based on the +physical examination of this wound, yes, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. That is all I have. + +Mr. McCLOY. Perhaps this was something that Colonel Finck could testify +to exactly, but, he would be quite competent. Is there anything to +indicate that this was, might have been a larger than a 6.5 or smaller +than a 6.5? + +Commander HUMES. The size of the defect in the scalp, caused by a +projectile could vary from missile to missile because of elastic recoil +and so forth of the tissues. + +However, the size of the defect in the underlying bone is certainly not +likely to get smaller than that of the missile which perforated it, and +in this case, the smallest diameter of this was approximately 6 to 7 +mm., so I would feel that that would be the absolute upper limit of the +size of this missile, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. Seven would be the absolute upper limit? + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; and, of course, just a little tilt could +make it a little larger, you see. + +Mr. DULLES. I have one other question, if I may. + +Is the incidence of clean entry as indicated there, and then great +fragmentation on exit, is that a normal consequence of this type of +wound? + +Commander HUMES. Sir, we feel that there are two potential explanations +for this. + +One, having traversed the skull in entrance in the occiput as depicted +on 388, the missile begins to tumble, and in that fashion it presents +a greater proportion of its surface to the brain substance and to the +skull as it makes its egress. + +The other and somewhat more difficult to measure and perhaps Colonel +Finck will be able to testify in greater detail on this, is that a high +velocity missile has tremendous kinetic energy, and this energy is +expanded against the structures which it strikes, and so that much of +this defect could be of the nature of blast, as this kinetic energy is +dissipated by traversing the skull. + +Is that the sense of the question, sir? + +Mr. DULLES. Yes. + +Senator COOPER. I will ask a question, and perhaps this isn't in your +field. + +But assuming that the shot which struck President Kennedy at point A +was fired by a gun from the window of the Texas School Book Depository, +and which has been testified to, and assuming that you could locate the +position of the President at the time he was struck by a bullet, you +could then, could you not, establish the degree of the missile? + +Commander HUMES. The degree of angle? + +Senator COOPER. The angle, yes, the degree of angle of the missile from +the building. + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; there is one difficulty, and that is +the defect of exit was so broad that one has to rely more on the +inclination of the entrance than they do connecting in this instance +entrance and exit because so much of the skull was carried away in this +fashion. + +Senator COOPER. That was my second question. + +My first question was would it be possible physically to establish the +degree of angle of the trajectory of the bullet? + +Commander HUMES. Within limited accuracy, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Within limited accuracy. + +That being true then my second question was whether the point of entry +of the bullet, point A, and the, what you call the exit---- + +Commander HUMES. Exit. + +Senator COOPER. Did you establish them so exactly that they could be +related to the degree of angle of the trajectory of the bullet? + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; to our satisfaction we did ascertain that +fact. + +Mr. DULLES. Just one other question. + +Am I correct in assuming from what you have said that this wound is +entirely inconsistent with a wound that might have been administered if +the shot were fired from in front or the side of the President: it had +to be fired from behind the President? + +Commander HUMES. Scientifically, sir, it is impossible for it to have +been fired from other than behind. Or to have exited from other than +behind. + +Mr. McCLOY. This is so obvious that I rather hesitate to ask it. There +is no question in your mind that it was a lethal bullet? + +Commander HUMES. The President, sir, could not possibly have survived +the effect of that injury no matter what would have been done for him. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Specter. + +Mr. SPECTER. What conclusions did you reach then as to the trajectory +or point of origin of the bullet, Dr. Humes, based on 388? + +Commander HUMES. We reached the conclusion that this missile was fired +toward the President from a point above and behind him, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, on one detail on your report, Dr. Humes, on page +4, on the third line down, you note that there is a lacerated wound +measuring 15 by 6 mm. which on the smaller size is, of course, less +than 6.5 mm.? + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. What would be the explanation for that variation? + +Commander HUMES. This is in the scalp, sir, and I believe that this +is explainable on the elastic recoil of the tissues of the skin, +sir. It is not infrequent in missile wounds of this type that the +measured wound is slightly smaller than the caliber of the missile that +traversed it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you proceed, now then to the other major wound of +entry which you have already noted and described? + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Its point of origin, where it hit the President. + +Commander HUMES. I--our previously submitted report, which is +Commission No. 387, identified a wound in the low posterior neck of the +President. + +The size of this wound was 4 by 7 mm., with the long axis being in +accordance with the long axis of the body, 44 mm. wide, in other words, +7 mm. long. + +We attempted to locate such wounds in soft tissue by making reference +to bony structures which do not move and are, therefore, good reference +points for this type of investigation. + +We then ascertained, we chose the two bony points of reference--we +chose to locate this wound, where the mastoid process, which is just +behind the ear, the top of the mastoid process, and the acromion which +is the tip of the shoulder joint. We ascertained physical measurement +at the time of autopsy that this wound was 14 cm. from the tip of the +mastoid process and 14 cm. from the acromion was its central point-- + +Mr. SPECTER. That is the right acromion? + +Commander HUMES. The tip of the right acromion, yes, sir, and that is +why we have depicted it in figure 385 in this location. + +This wound appeared physically quite similar to the wound which we +have described before in 388 "A," with the exception that its long +axis was shorter than the long axis of the wound described above. +When the tissues beneath this wound were inspected, there was a +defect corresponding with the skin defect in the fascia overlying the +musculature of the low neck and upper back. + +I mentioned previously that X-rays were made of the entire body of +the late President. Of course, and here I must say that as I describe +something to you, I might have done it before or after in the +description but for the sake of understanding, we examined carefully +the bony structures in this vicinity as well as the X-rays, to see +if there was any evidence of fracture or of deposition of metallic +fragments in the depths of this wound, and we saw no such evidence, +that is no fracture of the bones of the shoulder girdle, or of the +vertical column, and no metallic fragments were detectable by X-ray +examination. + +Attempts to probe in the vicinity of this wound were unsuccessful +without fear of making a false passage. + +Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by that, Doctor? + +Commander HUMES. Well, the defect in the fascia was quite similar, +which is the first firm tissue over the muscle beneath the skin, was +quite similar to this. We were unable, however, to take probes and have +them satisfactorily fall through any definite path at this point. + +Now, to explain the situation in the President's neck, I think it will +be necessary for me to refer back to Exhibit 385, I believe the number +is correct. + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes; please do, that is 385. + +Commander HUMES. Now, as the President's body was viewed from +anteriorly in the autopsy room, and saying nothing for the moment about +the missile, there was a recent surgical defect in the low anterior +neck, which measured some 7 or 8 cm. in length or let's say a recent +wound was present in this area. + +This wound was through the skin, through the subcutaneous tissues and +into the larynx. Or rather into the trachea of the President. + +Mr. SPECTER. To digress chronologically---- + +Commander HUMES. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to discuss that wound on the front +side of the President with Dr. Malcolm Perry of Parkland Hospital in +Dallas? + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; I did. I had the impression from seeing +the wound that it represented a surgical tracheotomy wound, a wound +frequently made by surgeons when people are in respiratory distress to +give them a free airway. + +To ascertain that point, I called on the telephone Dr. Malcolm Perry +and discussed with him the situation of the President's neck when he +first examined the President, and asked him had he in fact done a +tracheotomy which was somewhat redundant because I was somewhat certain +he had. + +He said, yes; he had done a tracheotomy and that as the point to +perform his tracheotomy he used a wound which he had interpreted as a +missile wound in the low neck, as the point through which to make the +tracheotomy incision. + +Mr. SPECTER. When did you have that conversation with him, Dr. Humes? + +Commander HUMES. I had that conversation early on Saturday morning, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. On Saturday morning, November 23d? + +Commander HUMES. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And have you had occasion since to examine the report of +Parkland Hospital which I made available to you? + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; I have. + +Mr. SPECTER. May it please the Commission, I would like to note this as +Commission Exhibit No. 392, and subject to later technical proof, to +have it admitted into evidence at this time for the purpose of having +the doctor comment about it. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be so marked. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 392, for +identification.) + +Mr. SPECTER. What did your examination of the Parkland Hospital +records disclose with respect to this wound on the front side of the +President's body? + +Commander HUMES. The examination of this record from Parkland Hospital +revealed that Doctor Perry had observed this wound as had other +physicians in attendance upon the President, and actually before a +tracheotomy was performed surgically, an endotracheal tube was placed +through the President's mouth and down his larynx and into his trachea +which is the first step in giving satisfactory airway to a person +injured in such fashion and unconscious. + +The President was unconscious and it is most difficult to pass such a +tube when the person is unconscious. + +The person who performed that procedure, that is instilled the +endotracheal tube noted that there was a wound of the trachea below the +larynx, which corresponded in essence with the wound of the skin which +they had observed from the exterior. + +Mr. SPECTER. How is that wound described, while you are mentioning the +wound? + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. I think you will find that on the first page of the +summary sheet, Dr. Humes. + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. Thank you. + +This report was written by doctor--or of the activities of Dr. James +Carrico, Doctor Carrico in inserting the endotracheal tube noted a +ragged wound of trachea immediately below the larynx. + +The report, as I recall it, and I have not studied it in minute detail, +would indicate to me that Doctor Perry realizing from Doctor Carrico's +observation that there was a wound of the trachea would quite logically +use the wound which he had observed as a point to enter the trachea +since the trachea was almost damaged, that would be a logical place in +which to put his incision. + +In speaking of that wound in the neck, Doctor Perry told me that before +he enlarged it to make the tracheotomy wound it was a "few millimeters +in diameter." + +Of course by the time we saw it, as my associates and as you have +heard, it was considerably larger and no longer at all obvious as a +missile wound. + +The report states, and Doctor Perry told me in telephone conversation +that there was bubbling of air and blood in the vicinity of this wound +when he made the tracheotomy. This caused him to believe that perhaps +there had been a violation of one of the--one or other of the pleural +cavities by a missile. He, therefore, asked one of his associates, and +the record is to me somewhat confused as to which of his associates, he +asked one of his associates to put in a chest tube. This is a maneuver +which is, was quite logical under the circumstances, and which would, +if a tube that were placed through all layers of the wall of the chest, +and the chest cavity had been violated one could remove air that had +gotten in there and greatly assist respiration. + +So when we examined the President in addition to the large wound which +we found in conversation with Doctor Perry was the tracheotomy wound, +there were two smaller wounds on the upper anterior chest. + +Mr. DULLES. These are apparently exit wounds? + +Commander HUMES. Sir, these were knife wounds, these were incised +wounds on either side of the chest, and I will give them in somewhat +greater detail. + +These wounds were bilateral, they were situated on the anterior chest +wall in the nipple line, and each were 2 cm. long in the transverse +axis. The one on the right was situated 11 cm. above the nipple--the +one on the left was situated 11 cm. on the nipple, and the one on the +right was 8 cm. above the nipple. Their intention was to incise through +the President's chest to place tubes into his chest. + +We examined those wounds very carefully, and found that they, however, +did not enter the chest cavity. They only went through the skin. + +I presume that as they were performing that procedure it was obvious +that the President had died, and they didn't pursue this. + +To complete the examination of the area of the neck and the chest, I +will do that together, we made the customary incision which we use in +a routine postmortem examination which is a Y-shaped incision from the +shoulders over the lower portion of the breastbone and over to the +opposite shoulder and reflected the skin and tissues from the anterior +portion of the chest. + +We examined in the region of this incised surgical wound which was +the tracheotomy wound and we saw that there was some bruising of the +muscles of the neck in the depths of this wound as well as laceration +or defect in the trachea. + +At this point, of course, I am unable to say how much of the defect in +the trachea was made by the knife of the surgeon, and how much of the +defect was made by the missile wound. That would have to be ascertained +from the surgeon who actually did the tracheotomy. + +There was, however, some ecchymosis or contusion, of the muscles of the +right anterior neck inferiorly, without, however, any disruption of the +muscles or any significant tearing of the muscles. + +The muscles in this area of the body run roughly, as you see as he +depicted them here. We have removed some of them for a point I will +make in a moment, but it is our opinion that the missile traversed +the neck and slid between these muscles and other vital structures +with a course in the neck such as the carotid artery, the jugular vein +and other structures because there was no massive hemorrhage or other +massive injury in this portion of the neck. + +In attempting to relate findings within the President's body to this +wound which we had observed low in his neck, we then opened his chest +cavity, and we very carefully examined the lining of his chest cavity +and both of his lungs. We found that there was, in fact, no defect in +the pleural lining of the President's chest. + +It was completely intact. + +However, over the apex of the right pleural cavity, and the pleura now +has two layers. It has a parietal or a layer which lines the chest +cavity and it has a visceral layer which is intimately in association +with the lung. + +As depicted in figure 385, in the apex of the right pleural cavity +there was a bruise or contusion or ecchmymosis of the parietal pleura +as well as a bruise of the upper portion, the most apical portion of +the right lung. + +It, therefore, was our opinion that the missile while not penetrating +physically the pleural cavity, as it passed that point bruised either +the missile itself, or the force of its passage through the tissues, +bruised both the parietal and the visceral pleura. + +The area of discoloration on the apical portion of the right upper lung +measured five centimeters in greatest diameter, and was wedge shaped in +configuration, with its base toward the top of the chest and its apex +down towards the substance of the lung. + +Once again Kodachrome photographs were made of this area in the +interior of the President's chest. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you mark the point on Exhibit 385, the one on the +rear of the President as point "C" and the one on the front of the +President as point "D" so we can discuss those, Dr. Humes? + +Now, what conclusion did you reach, if any, as to whether point "C" was +the point of entry or exit? + +Commander HUMES. We reached the conclusion that point "C" was a point +of entry. + +Mr. SPECTER. What characteristics of that wound led you to that +conclusion? + +Commander HUMES. The characteristics here were basically similar to +the characteristics above, lacking one very valuable clue or piece of +evidence rather than clue, because it is more truly a piece of evidence +in the skull. The skull as I mentioned before had the bone with the +characteristic defect made as a missile traverses bone. + +This missile, to the best of our ability to ascertain, struck no bone +protuberances, no bony prominences, no bones as it traversed the +President's body. But it was a sharply delineated wound. It was quite +regular in its outline. It measured, as I mentioned, 7 by 4 mm. Its +margins were similar in all respects when viewed with the naked eye to +the wound in the skull, which we feel incontrovertibly was a wound of +entrance. + +The defect in the fascia which is that layer of connective tissue over +the muscle just beneath the wound corresponded virtually exactly to the +defect in the skin. + +And for these reasons we felt that this was a wound of entrance. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you search the body to determine if there was any +bullet inside the body? + +Commander HUMES. Before the arrival of Colonel Finck we had made X-rays +of the head, neck and torso of the President, and the upper portions +of his major extremities, or both his upper and lower extremities. At +Colonel Finck's suggestion, we then completed the X-ray examination by +X-raying the President's body in toto, and those X-rays are available. + +Mr. SPECTER. What did those X-rays disclose with respect to the +possible presence of a missile in the President's body? + +Commander HUMES. They showed no evidence of a missile in the +President's body at any point. And these were examined by ourselves and +by the radiologist, who assisted us in this endeavor. + +Mr. SPECTER. What conclusion, if any, did you reach as to whether point +"D" on 385 was the point of entrance or exit? + +Commander HUMES. We concluded that this missile depicted in 385 "C" +which entered the President's body traversed the President's body and +made its exit through the wound observed by the physicians at Parkland +Hospital and later extended as a tracheotomy wound. + +Mr. SPECTER. Does the description "ragged wound" which is found in the +Parkland report shed any light in and of itself as to whether point "D" +is an exit or entry wound? + +Commander HUMES. I believe, sir, that that statement goes on, ragged +wound in the trachea. I don't believe that refers to the skin. And you +might say that it is a ragged wound is more likely to be a wound of +exit. + +However, the trachea has little cartilaginous rings which have a +tendency, which would be disrupted by this, and most wounds of the +trachea unless very cleverly incised would perhaps appear slightly +ragged. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, what was the angle, if any, that you observed on the +path of the bullet, as you outlined it? + +Commander HUMES. The angle which we observed in measuring, in comparing +the point of entrance, our point of entrance labeled "C" on 385 and +"D" point of exit is one that the point of exit is below the point of +entrance compared with the vertical. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you had an opportunity to examine the clothing which +has been identified for you as being that worn by the President on the +day of the assassination? + +Commander HUMES. Yes; yesterday, just shortly before the Commission +hearing today was begun, Mr. Chief Justice, we had opportunity for the +first time to examine the clothing worn by the late President. + +In private conversation among ourselves before this opportunity, we +predicted we would find defects in the clothing corresponding with the +defects which were found, of course, on the body of the late President. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, may it please the Commission, I would +like to have identified for the record three articles on which I +have placed Commission Exhibits Nos. 393 being the coat worn by the +President, 394 being the shirt, and 395 being the President's tie, and +at this time move for their admission into evidence. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The articles of clothing referred to were marked Commission Exhibits +Nos. 393, 394 and 395 for identification, and received in evidence.) + +Mr. SPECTER. Taking 393 at the start, Doctor Humes, will you describe +for the record what hole, if any, is observable in the back of that +garment which would be at or about the spot you have described as being +the point of entry on the President's back or lower neck. + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. This exhibit is a grey suit coat stated to +have been worn by the President on the day of his death. Situated to +the right of the midline high in the back portion of the coat is a +defect, one margin of which is semicircular. + +Situated above it just below the collar is an additional defect. It is +our opinion that the lower of these defects corresponds essentially +with the point of entrance of the missile at Point C on Exhibit 385. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would it be accurate to state that the hole which you have +identified as being the point of entry is approximately 6 inches below +the top of the collar, and 2 inches to the right of the middle seam of +the coat? + +Commander HUMES. That is approximately correct, sir. This defect, I +might say, continues on through the material. + +Attached to this garment is the memorandum which states that one half +of the area around the hole which was presented had been removed +by experts, I believe, at the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and +also that a control area was taken from under the collar, so it is +my interpretation that this defect at the top of this garment is the +control area taken by the Bureau, and that the reason the lower defect +is not more circle or oval in outline is because a portion of that +defect has been removed apparently for physical examinations. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, does the one which you have described as the entry of +the bullet go all the way through? + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; it goes through both layers. + +Mr. SPECTER. How about the upper one of the collar you have described, +does that go all the way through? + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; it goes all the way through. It is not--wait +a minute, excuse me--it is not so clearly a puncture wound as the one +below. + +Mr. SPECTER. Does the upper one go all the way through in the same +course? + +Commander HUMES. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Through the inner side as it went through the outer side? + +Commander HUMES. No, in an irregular fashion. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you take Commission Exhibit 394 and describe what +that is, first of all, please? + +Commander HUMES. This is the shirt, blood-stained shirt, purportedly +worn by the President on the day of his assassination. When viewed +from behind at a point which corresponds essentially with the point of +defect on the jacket, one sees an irregularly oval defect. + +When viewed anteriorly, with the top button buttoned, two additional +defects are seen. Of course, with the shirt buttoned, the fly front +of the shirt causes two layers of cloth to be present in this +location, and that there is a defect in the inner layer of cloth and a +corresponding defect in the outer layer of the cloth. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is there any observable indication from the fibers on the +front side of the shirt to indicate in which direction a missile might +have passed through those two tears? + +Commander HUMES. From an examination of these defects at this point, it +would appear that the missile traversed these two layers from within to +the exterior. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would it be accurate to state that the hole in the back of +the shirt is approximately 6 inches below the top of the collar and 2 +inches to the right of the middle seam of the shirt? + +Commander HUMES. That is approximately correct, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, how, if at all, do the holes in the shirt and coat +conform to the wound of entrance which you described as point "C" on +Commission Exhibit 385? + +Commander HUMES. We believe that they conform quite well. When +viewing--first of all, the wounds or the defects in 393 and 394 +coincide virtually exactly with one another. + +They give the appearance when viewed separately and not as part of the +clothing of a clothed person as being perhaps, somewhat lower on the +Exhibits 393 and 394 than we have depicted them in Exhibit No. 385. We +believe there are two reasons for this. + +385 is a schematic representation, and the photographs would be more +accurate as to the precise location, but more particularly the way in +which these defects would conform with such a defect on the torso would +depend on the girth of the shoulders and configuration of the base of +the neck of the individual, and the relative position of the shirt +and coat to the tissues of the body at the time of the impact of the +missile. + +Mr. SPECTER. As to the muscular status of the President, what was it? + +Commander HUMES. The President was extremely well-developed, an +extremely well-developed, muscular young man with a very well-developed +set of muscles in his thoraco and shoulder girdle. + +Mr. SPECTER. What effect would that have on the positioning of the +shirt and coat with respect to the position of the neck in and about +the seam? + +Commander HUMES. I believe this would have a tendency to push the +portions of the coat which show the defects here somewhat higher on the +back of the President than on a man of less muscular development. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, may it please the Commission, I would +like to mark for identification Exhibit 396, which later proof will +show is a picture of President Kennedy shortly before the first bullet +struck him, and ask the doctor to take a look at that. + +Will you describe, Doctor Humes, the position of President Kennedy's +right hand in that picture? + +Commander HUMES. Yes. This exhibit, Commission Exhibit No. 396, +allegedly taken just prior to the wounding of the late President, shows +him with his hand raised, his elbow bent, apparently in saluting the +crowd. I believe that this action---- + +Mr. SPECTER. Which hand was that? + +Commander HUMES. This was his right hand, sir. I believe that this +action would further accentuate the elevation of the coat and the shirt +with respect to the back of the President. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now. Doctor Humes, will you take Commission Exhibit No. +395---- + +Mr. McCLOY. Before you go, may I ask a question? In your examination of +the shirt, I just want to get it in the record, from your examination +of the shirt, there is no defect in the collar of the shirt which +coincides with the defect in the back of the President's coat, am I +correct? + +Commander HUMES. You are correct, sir. There is no such defect. + +Mr. SPECTER. As to Commission Exhibit 395, Dr. Humes, will you identify +what that is, please? + +Commander HUMES. We had an opportunity to examine this exhibit before +the Commission met today, sir. This is Commission Exhibit No. 395, and +is the neck tie purportedly worn, purportedly to have been worn, by the +late President on the day of his assassination. + +Mr. SPECTER. What defect, if any, is noted on the tie which would +correspond with the path of a missile apparently passing through the +folds of the shirt which you have already described? + +Commander HUMES. This tie is one of those--this tie is still in its +knotted state, as we examine it at this time. The portion of the tie +around the neck has been severed apparently with scissors or other +sharp instrument accounting for the loop about the neck. + +The tie is tied in four-in-hand fashion but somewhat askew from the way +a person would normally tie a four-in-hand knot. + +Situated on the left anterior aspect of this knotted portion of the +tie at a point approximately corresponding with the defects noted +previously in the two layers of the shirt is a superficial tear of the +outer layer only of the fabric of this tie which, I believe, could have +been caused by a glancing blow to this portion of the tie by a missile. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, I move at this time for the admission +into evidence of Exhibits 393 through Exhibit 396, the three articles +of clothing and the photograph which we have just used. + +The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted. + +(Exhibits Nos. 393 through 396 were received in evidence and may be +found in the Commission files.) + +Mr. McCLOY. Commander, did you say left or right? + +Commander HUMES. No, sir. In fact, the way this bow is tied now it +would appear to be on the left of this tie, but it is kind of twisted +out of shape. + +Mr. McCLOY. Yes. It is twisted. It is not too clear. + +Commander HUMES. It is not too clear, it is not clear how that might +have been in position with the shirt, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, Doctor Humes, at one point in your examination of the +President, did you make an effort to probe the point of entry with your +finger? + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; I did. + +Mr. SPECTER. And at or about that time when you were trying to +ascertain, as you previously testified, whether there was any missile +in the body of the President, did someone from the Secret Service call +your attention to the fact that a bullet had been found on a stretcher +at Parkland Hospital? + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; they did. + +Mr. SPECTER. And in that posture of your examination, having just +learned of the presence of a bullet on a stretcher, did that call to +your mind any tentative explanatory theory of the point of entry or +exit of the bullet which you have described as entering at Point "C" on +Exhibit 385? + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. We were able to ascertain with absolute +certainty that the bullet had passed by the apical portion of the right +lung producing the injury which we mentioned. + +I did not at that point have the information from Doctor Perry +about the wound in the anterior neck, and while that was a possible +explanation for the point of exit, we also had to consider the +possibility that the missile in some rather inexplicable fashion had +been stopped in its path through the President's body and, in fact, +then had fallen from the body onto the stretcher. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what theory did you think possible, at that juncture, +to explain the passing of the bullet back out the point of entry; or +had you been provided with the fact that external heart massage had +been performed on the President? + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; we had, and we considered the possibility +that some of the physical maneuvering performed by the doctors might +have in some way caused this event to take place. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you since discounted that possibility, Doctor +Humes? + +Commander HUMES. Yes; in essence we have. When examining the wounds +in the base of the President's neck anteriorly, the region of the +tracheotomy performed at Parkland Hospital, we noted, and we noted in +our record, some contusion and bruising of the muscles of the neck of +the President. We noted that at the time of the postmortem examination. + +Now, we also made note of the types of wounds which I mentioned to you +before in this testimony on the chest which were going to be used by +the doctors there to place chest tubes. They also made other wounds, +one on the left arm, and a wound on the ankle of the President with +the idea of administering intravenous blood and other fluids in hope +of replacing the blood which the President had lost from his extensive +wounds. + +Those wounds showed no evidence of bruising or contusion or physical +violence, which made us reach the conclusion that they were performed +during the agonal moments of the late president, and when the +circulation was, in essence, very seriously embarrassed, if not +nonfunctional. So that these wounds, the wound of the chest and the +wound of the arm and of the ankle were performed about the same time as +the tracheotomy wound because only a very few moments of time elapsed +when all this was going on. + +So, therefore, we reached the conclusion that the damage to these +muscles on the anterior neck just below this wound were received at +approximately the same time that the wound here on the top of the +pleural cavity was, while the President still lived and while his heart +and lungs were operating in such a fashion to permit him to have a +bruise in the vicinity, because that he did have in these strap muscles +in the neck, but he didn't have in the areas of the other incisions +that were made at Parkland Hospital. So we feel that, had this missile +not made its path in that fashion, the wound made by Doctor Perry in +the neck would not have been able to produce, wouldn't have been able +to produce, these contusions of the musculature of the neck. + +Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question about the missile, I am a little +bit--the bullet, I am a little bit--confused. It was found on the +stretcher. Did the President's body remain on the stretcher while it +was in the hospital? + +Commander HUMES. Of that point I have no knowledge. The only---- + +Mr. DULLES. Why would it--would this operating have anything to do with +the bullet being on the stretcher unless the President's body remained +on the stretcher after he was taken into the hospital; is that possible? + +Commander HUMES. It is quite possible, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. Otherwise it seems to me the bullet would have to have been +ejected from the body before he was taken or put on the bed in the +hospital. + +Commander HUMES. Right, sir. I, of course, was not there. I don't know +how he was handled in the hospital, in what conveyance. I do know he +was on his back during the period of his stay in the hospital; Doctor +Perry told me that. + +Mr. DULLES. Yes; and wasn't turned over. + +Commander HUMES. That is right. + +Mr. DULLES. So he might have been on the stretcher the whole time, is +that your view? + +The CHAIRMAN. He said he had no view. He wasn't there, he doesn't know +anything about it. + +Mr. DULLES. Yes. I wonder if there is other evidence of this. + +Mr. SPECTER. There has been other evidence, Mr. Dulles. If I may say +at this point, we shall produce later, subject to sequential proof, +evidence that the stretcher on which this bullet was found was the +stretcher of Governor Connally. We have a sequence of events on the +transmission of that stretcher which ties that down reasonably closely, +so that on the night of the autopsy itself, as the information I have +been developing indicates, the thought preliminarily was that was from +President Kennedy's stretcher, and that is what led to the hypothesis +which we have been exploring about, but which has since been rejected. +But at any rate the evidence will show that it was from Governor +Connally's stretcher that the bullet was found. + +Mr. DULLES. So this bullet is still missing? + +Mr. SPECTER. That is the subject of some theories I am about to get +into. That is an elusive subject, but Dr. Humes has some views on it, +and we might just as well go into those now. + +Mr. McCLOY. Before he gets into that, may I ask a question? + +The CHAIRMAN. Surely, go right ahead. + +Mr. McCLOY. Quite apart from the President's clothing, now directing +your attention to the flight of the bullet, quite apart from the +evidence given by the President's clothing, you, I believe, indicated +that the flight of the bullet was from the back, from above and behind. +It took roughly the line which is shown on your Exhibit 385. + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. I am not clear what induced you to come to that conclusion +if you couldn't find the actual exit wound by reason of the tracheotomy. + +Commander HUMES. The report which we have submitted, sir, represents +our thinking within the 24-48 hours of the death of the President, all +facts taken into account of the situation. + +The wound in the anterior portion of the lower neck is physically lower +than the point of entrance posteriorly, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. That is what I wanted to bring out. + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. May I ask this: In spite of the incision made by the +tracheotomy, was there any evidence left of the exit aperture? + +Commander HUMES. Unfortunately not that we could ascertain, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. I see. + +Mr. DULLES. There is no evidence in the coat or the shirt of an exit +through the coat or shirt. + +Commander HUMES. There is no exit through the coat, sir. But these two, +in the shirt, of course--excuse me, sir--there is. The entrance by our +calculations---- + +Mr. DULLES. The entrance I know. + +Commander HUMES. Posteriorly. + +Mr. DULLES. What about the exit? + +Commander HUMES. The exit wounds are just below. + +Mr. DULLES. But there was no coat to exit through. + +Commander HUMES. No; anteriorly the coat was quite open. + +Senator COOPER. May I ask a question? + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir, Senator. + +Senator COOPER. Assuming that we draw a straight line from Point "C" +which you have described as a possible point of entry of the missile, +to Point "D" where you saw an incision of the tracheotomy---- + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. What would be the relation of the bruise at the apex of +the pleural sac to such a line? + +Commander HUMES. It would be exactly in line with such a line, sir, +exactly. + +Senator COOPER. What was the character of the bruise that you saw there? + +Commander HUMES. The bruise here, photographs are far superior to my +humble verbal description, but if I let my hand in cup shaped fashion +represent the apical parietal pleura, it was an area approximately 5 +cm. in greatest diameter of purplish blue discoloration of the parietal +pleura. Corresponding exactly with it, with the lung sitting below it, +was a roughly pyramid-shaped bruise with its base toward the surface of +the upper portion of the lung, and the apex down into the lung tissue, +and the whole thing measured about 5 cm., which is a little--2 inches +in extent, sir. + +Senator COOPER. What would be the--can you describe the covering around +the apex of the pleural sac, the nature of its protection. My point is +to get your opinion as to whether some other factor, some factor other +than the missile could have caused this bruise which you saw. + +Commander HUMES. A couple of ways we might do this, sir. One with +regard to temporal, it was quite fresh. When examined under the +microscope, the lung in this area had recent hemorrhaging in it. The +red blood cells were well-preserved, as they would be if it happened +quite recently before death, as was the red blood cells where they had +gotten out into the lung tissue near there. + +The discoloration was essentially of the same character as the +discoloration in the muscles adjacent thereto, which would roughly +again place it temporally in approximately the same time since bruises +change color as time goes by, and these appeared quite fresh. + +This is with regard to time--I don't know whether that is the right +parameter in which you wished to study it, Senator. + +Senator COOPER. My question really went to this point: Considering the +location of the bruise at the apex of the pleural sac---- + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. + +Senator COOPER. And of the tissue or muscles around it, was there any +other factor which you could think of that might have caused that +bruise other than the passage of a missile? + +Commander HUMES. It was so well localized that I truthfully, sir, can't +think of any other way. + +Senator COOPER. That is all. + +Mr. McCLOY. May I ask you one question which, perhaps, the answer is +quite obvious. If, contrary to the evidence that we have here, that +anterior wound was the wound of entry, the shot must have come from +below the President to have followed that path. + +Commander HUMES. That course, that is correct, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Humes, can you compare the angles of declination on +385, point "C" to "D", with 388 "A" to "B"? + +Commander HUMES. You will note, and again I must apologize for the +schematic nature of these diagrams drawn to a certain extent from +memory and to a certain extent from the written record, it would appear +that the angle of declination is somewhat sharper in the head wound, +388, than it is in 385. + +The reason for this, we feel, by the pattern of the entrance wound at +388 "A" causes us to feel that the President's head was bent forward, +and we feel this accounts for the difference in the angle, plus +undoubtedly the wounds were not received absolutely simultaneously, so +that the vehicle in which the President was traveling moved during this +period of time, which would account for a difference in the line of +flight, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Aside from the slight differences which are notable by +observing those two exhibits, are they roughly comparable to the angle +of decline? + +Commander HUMES. I believe them to be roughly comparable, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Could you state for the record an approximation of the +angle of decline? + +Commander HUMES. Mathematics is not my forte. Approximately 45 degrees +from the horizontal. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you elaborate somewhat, Doctor Humes, on why the +angle would change by virtue of a tilting of the head of the President +since the basis of the computation of angle is with respect to the +ground? + +Commander HUMES. I find the question a little difficult of answering +right off, forgive me, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. I will try to rephrase it. Stated more simply, why would +the tilting of the President's head affect the angle of the decline? +You stated that was---- + +Commander HUMES. The angle that I am making an observation most +about is the angle made that we envisioned having been made by the +impingement of the bullet in its flight at the point of entry. This +angle we see by the difference of the measurement of the two wounds. + +Therefore, this is--we have several angles we are talking about here, +unfortunately, this is--the angle of which we speak in this location, +"A" to "B", and it is difficult. + +I have to retract. Since we feel from their physical configurations, +wounds 385 "C" and 388 "A" are entrance wounds, if there wasn't some +significant change in the angulation of the President's head with +respect to the line of flight from these missiles, the physical +measurements of 385 "C" and this 388 "A" should be similar. They +aren't, in fact, dissimilar in that there is a greater angulation in +388 "A". Therefore, there has to be either a change in the position +of the vehicle in which the President is riding with respect to the +horizontal or a change in the situation of the President's head. I +believe that the exhibits submitted earlier, the photograph---- + +Mr. SPECTER. I believe the ones were given to you so far--excuse me, +you are right, 389. + +Commander HUMES. 389, in fact at this point shows the President's head +in a slightly inclined forward position, and I am not enough aware of +the geography of the ground over which the vehicle was traveling to +know how much that would affect it. + +Mr. SPECTER. If you were to be told that there was a distance traversed +of approximately 150 feet from the time of Point "C" on 385 to Point +"A" on 388, and you would assume the additional factor that there was +a slight angle of decline on the street as well, would those factors, +assuming them to be true, help in the explanation of the differences in +the angles? + +Commander HUMES. I think that they would make the figure as depicted in +388 quite understandably different from 385. + +Mr. DULLES. Was it possible, in view of the condition of the brain to +point with absolute accuracy to the point of exit there? I can see +that the point of exit in 385 can be clearly determined. Is it equally +possible to determine the point of exit in 388? + +Commander HUMES. No, sir; it was not, other than through this large +defect because when---- + +Mr. DULLES. Therefore, that angle might be somewhat different. + +Commander HUMES. Might be somewhat different, sir. I think we made +reference to that somewhat earlier. The fragments were so difficult to +replace in their precise anatomic location---- + +Mr. DULLES. That is what I thought, but I wasn't sure. + +Commander HUMES. That is correct. + +Mr. McCLOY. I would like to ask a question in regard to 385 similar to +that I asked as to 388. In your opinion, was the 385 wound lethal? + +Commander HUMES. No, sir. + +Mr. DULLES. With the wound in 385, would it have affected the +President's power of speech? + +Commander HUMES. It could have, sir. The wound caused a defect in his +trachea which would most usually have caused at least some defect in +the proper phonation, sir. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +The CHAIRMAN. On the record. + +Mr. SPECTER. In response to Mr. Dulles' question a moment ago, Doctor +Humes, you commented that they did not turn him over at Parkland. Will +you state for the record what the source of your information is on that? + +Commander HUMES. Yes. This is a result of a personal telephone +conversation between myself and Dr. Malcolm Perry early in the morning +of Saturday, November 23. + +Mr. SPECTER. At that time did Doctor Perry tell you specifically, +Doctor Humes, that the Parkland doctors had not observed the wound in +the President's back? + +Commander HUMES. He told me that the President was on his back from the +time he was brought into the hospital until the time he left it, and +that at no time was he turned from his back by the doctors. + +Mr. SPECTER. And at the time of your conversation with Doctor Perry did +you tell Doctor Perry anything of your observations or conclusions? + +Commander HUMES. No, sir; I did not. + +(A short recess was taken.) + +The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, the Commission will be in order. We will +continue with the examination. + +Mr. SPECTER. Doctor Humes, as to points of entry on the body of the +late President, how many were there in total? + +Commander HUMES. Two, sir, as depicted in 385-C and 388-A. + +Mr. SPECTER. And to points of exit, how many were there? + +Commander HUMES. Two, sir, as depicted in 385-D and the vicinity +of 388-B. I make the latter remark as was developed earlier, in +that the size of the large defect in the skull was so great and the +fragmentation was so complex that it was impossible to accurately +pinpoint the exit of the missile in the head wound. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now as to that last factor, would the X-rays be of +material assistance to you in pinpointing the specific locale of the +exit? + +Commander HUMES. I do not believe so, sir. The only path that the +X-rays show in any detail are of the minor fragments which passed from +point A to point B. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now that you have finished your major descriptions of +the wounds, can you be any more specific in telling us in what way +the availability of the x-rays would assist in further specifying the +nature of the wounds? + +Commander HUMES. I do not believe, sir, that the availability of the +X-rays would materially assist the Commission. + +Mr. SPECTER. How about the same question as to the pictures? + +Commander HUMES. The pictures would show more accurately and in more +detail the character of the wounds as depicted particularly in 385 and +386 and in 388-A. They would also perhaps give the Commissioners a +better--better is not the best term, but a more graphic picture of the +massive defect in 388. + +Mr. SPECTER. Going back for a moment, Doctor Humes---- + +The CHAIRMAN. Before we get off that, may I ask you this, Commander: If +we had the pictures here and you could look them over again and restate +your opinion, would it cause you to change any of the testimony you +have given here? + +Commander HUMES. To the best of my recollection, Mr. Chief Justice, it +would not. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mr. McCloy. + +Mr. McCLOY. May I ask this question? + +The CHAIRMAN. Go right ahead. + +Mr. McCLOY. Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not any +photographs were taken in Dallas? + +Commander HUMES. I have none, sir, no knowledge. + +Mr. McCLOY. No knowledge that any were taken? + +Representative FORD. May I ask what size are the pictures to which you +refer? + +Commander HUMES. We exposed both black and white and color negatives, +Congressman. They were exposed in the morgue during the examination. +They were not developed. The kodachrome negatives when developed would +be 405. They were in film carriers or cassettes, as were the black and +white. Of course they could be magnified. + +Representative FORD. Have those been examined by personnel at Bethesda? + +Commander HUMES. No, sir. We exposed these negatives; we turned them +over. Here I must ask the counsel again for advice--to the Secret +Service. + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes; it was the Secret Service. + +Commander HUMES. They were turned over to the Secret Service in their +cassettes unexposed, and I have not seen any of them since. This is the +photographs. The X-rays were developed in our X-ray department on the +spot that evening, because we had to see those right then as part of +our examination, but the photographs were made for the record and for +other purposes. + +Representative FORD. But they had never been actually developed for +viewing. + +Commander HUMES. I do not know, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Doctor Humes, back to the angles for just a moment. + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Hypothesize or assume, if you will, that other evidence +will show that the wound inflicted on Commission Exhibit 385 at point +C occurred while the President was riding in the rear seat of his +automobile approximately 100 feet from a point of origin in a six-floor +building nearby, and assume further that the wound inflicted in 388 at +point A occurred when the President was approximately 250 feet away +from the same point. + +With those assumptions in mind, there would be somewhat different +angles of declination going from C to D on 385 and from A to B on 388. + +Commander HUMES. I would expect there would. + +Mr. SPECTER. You have already testified earlier today that you were +unable to pinpoint with precision angle A to B on 388 because of the +reconstruction of the scalp. + +Now my question to you, in that elongated fashion, is from what you +know and what you have described, are the angles, as you have expressed +them to be in your opinion, consistent with a situation where the two +wounds were inflicted at the angles and at the distances just described +to you? + +Commander HUMES. I believe they are consistent. I would state that the +path outlined on 388-A to B is to a certain extent conjectural for the +reasons given before. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, Doctor Humes, I hand you a group of documents which +have been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 397 and ask you if you can +identify what they are? + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; these are various notes in long-hand, or +copies rather, of various notes in long-hand made by myself, in part, +during the performance of the examination of the late President, and in +part after the examination when I was preparing to have a typewritten +report made. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are there also included there some notes that you made +while you talked to Doctor Perry on the telephone? + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; there are. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are there any notes which you made at any time which are +not included in this group of notes? + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; there are. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what do those consist of? + +Commander HUMES. In privacy of my own home, early in the morning of +Sunday, November 24th, I made a draft of this report which I later +revised, and of which this represents the revision. That draft I +personally burned in the fireplace of my recreation room. + +Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that the Exhibit No. 397 is the +identical document which has been previously identified as Commission +No. 371 for our internal purposes. + +Is the first sheet then in that group the notes you made when you +talked to Doctor Perry? + +Commander HUMES. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And do the next 15 sheets represent the rough draft which +was later copied into the autopsy report which has been heretofore +identified with an exhibit number? + +Commander HUMES. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what do the next two sheets represent? + +Commander HUMES. The next two sheets are the notes actually made in the +room in which the examination was taking place. I notice now that the +handwriting in some instances is not my own, and it is either that of +Commander Boswell or Colonel Finck. + +Mr. SPECTER. And was that writing made at the same time that the +autopsy report was undertaken; that is, did you review all of the +markings on those papers and note them to be present when you completed +the autopsy report? + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. From the time of the completion of this +examination until the submission of the written report following its +preparation, all of the papers pertinent to this case were in my +personal custody. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all of the documents which were +present in that 397, Exhibit No. 397? + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; with the exception of the certification +to the fact that I, in fact, detailed them in my custody, and a +certification that I had destroyed certain preliminary draft notes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And these represent all the notes except those you have +already described which you destroyed? + +Commander HUMES. That is correct, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now, just one point on the notes themselves. Page 14 of +your rough draft, Doctor Humes, as to the point of origin, the notes +show that there was a revision between your first draft and your final +report. + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you first of all read into the record the final +conclusion reflected in your final report. + +Commander HUMES. I would rather read it from the final report. The +final report reads: + +"The projectiles were fired from a point behind and somewhat above the +level of the deceased." + +Mr. SPECTER. And what did the first draft of that sentence as shown on +page 14 of your rough draft state? + +Commander HUMES. It stated as follows: + +"The projectiles were fired from a point behind and somewhat above a +horizontal line to the vertical position of the body at the moment of +impact." + +Mr. SPECTER. Now would you state the reason for making that +modification between draft and final report, please? + +Commander HUMES. This examination, as I have indicated, was performed +by myself with my two associates. The notes which we have just admitted +as an exhibit are in my own hand and are my opinion, was my opinion at +that time, as to the best way to present the facts which we had gleaned +during this period. + +Before submitting it to the typist, I went over this with great care +with my two associates. One or the other of them raised the point +that perhaps this sentence would state more than what was absolutely +fact based upon our observations, pointing out that we did not know +precisely at that time in what position the body of the President was +when the missiles struck, and that therefore we should be somewhat +less specific and somewhat more circumspect than the way we stated it. +When I considered this suggestion, I agreed that it would be better to +change it as noted, and accordingly, I did so. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, I move now for the admission into +evidence of Exhibit No. 397. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The documents, previously marked Exhibit No. 397 for identification, +were received in evidence.) + +Mr. McCLOY. May I ask one question about the notes? The notes that you +made contemporaneously with your examination, you said you put those +down and then you put some in later. How much later were the notes, +within the best of your recollection of the final notes made, not the +final report, but the final notes that you made in your own handwriting? + +Commander HUMES. The examination was concluded approximately at 11 +o'clock on the night of November 22. The final changes in the notes +prior to the typing of the report were made, and I will have to give +you the time because whatever time Mr. Oswald was shot, that is +about when I finished. I was working in an office, and someone had a +television on and came in and told me that Mr. Oswald had been shot, +and that was around noon on Sunday, November 24th. + +Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, I have now marked another photograph +as the next exhibit number, Commission Exhibit 398. May I say to the +Commission that this is a photograph which, subject to later proof, +will show it to be taken immediately after the President was struck by +the first bullet. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be marked. + +(The photograph was marked Commission Exhibit No. 398 for +identification.) + +May I move for its admission into evidence at this time for this +purpose? + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The photograph, previously marked Commission Exhibit No. 398 for +identification, was received in evidence.) + +Looking at Commission Exhibit 398, Doctor Humes, with that as a +background, have you had an opportunity to review the medical reports +on Governor Connally at Parkland Hospital in Commission Exhibit 392? + +Commander HUMES. I have. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you noted the wounds which he sustained on his right +wrist, that is, Governor Connally's right wrist? + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; I have noted the report of it in these +records. + +Mr. SPECTER. What does the report show as to those wounds on the right +wrist? + +Commander HUMES. The report shows a wound of entrance on the dorsal +aspect of the right wrist. Let's get the precise point here. The wound +of entry is described as on the dorsal aspect of the right wrist above +the junction of the distal fourth of the radius and the shaft. It was +approximately two centimeters in length and rather oblique, with the +loss of tissue, and some considerable contusions at the margins. There +was a wound of exit along the volar surface of the wrist about two +centimeters above the flexion crease of the wrist in the midline. + +Mr. SPECTER. Doctor Humes, I show you a bullet which we have marked as +Commission Exhibit No. 399, and may I say now that, subject to later +proof, this is the missile which has been taken from the stretcher +which the evidence now indicates was the stretcher occupied by Governor +Connally. + +I move for its admission into evidence at this time. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The article, previously marked Commission Exhibit No. 399 for +identification, was received in evidence.) + +Mr. SPECTER. We have been asked by the FBI that the missile not be +handled by anybody because it is undergoing further ballistic tests, +and it now appears, may the record show, in a plastic case in a cotton +background. + +Now looking at that bullet, Exhibit 399, Doctor Humes, could that +bullet have gone through or been any part of the fragment passing +through President Kennedy's head in Exhibit No. 388? + +Commander HUMES. I do not believe so, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And could that missile have made the wound on Governor +Connally's right wrist? + +Commander HUMES. I think that that is most unlikely. May I expand on +those two answers? + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes, please do. + +Commander HUMES. The X-rays made of the wound in the head of the late +President showed fragmentations of the missile. Some fragments we +recovered and turned over, as has been previously noted. Also we have +X-rays of the fragment of skull which was in the region of our opinion +exit wound showing metallic fragments. + +Also going to Exhibit 392, the report from Parkland Hospital, the +following sentence referring to the examination of the wound of the +wrist is found: + +"Small bits of metal were encountered at various levels throughout +the wound, and these were, wherever they were identified and could be +picked up, picked up and submitted to the pathology department for +identification and examination." + +The reason I believe it most unlikely that this missile could have +inflicted either of these wounds is that this missile is basically +intact; its jacket appears to me to be intact, and I do not understand +how it could possibly have left fragments in either of these locations. + +Mr. SPECTER. What wounds did Governor Connally sustain in his chest +area, based upon the records of Parkland Hospital, which you have +examined, Doctor Humes? + +Commander HUMES. Governor Connally received in his chest a wound of +entrance just--this is again from 392--"just lateral to the right +scapula close to the axilla which had passed through the lattisimus +dorsi muscle, shattered approximately ten centimeters of a lateral and +anterior portion of the right fifth rib, and emerged below the right +nipple anterially." + +These were the wounds of the chest of Governor Connally. + +Mr. SPECTER. Now assuming that there were only three missiles fired, +and bearing in mind the positions of President Kennedy and Governor +Connally from the photograph marked Commission Exhibit 398, do you +have an opinion as to the source of the missiles which inflicted the +wound on President Kennedy marked 385-C to D, and the wound in Governor +Connally's chest which you have just referred to? + +Commander HUMES. Yes. I would preface this statement by the following: +As I testified earlier in the afternoon, as much as we could ascertain +from our X-rays and physical examinations, this missile struck no bony +structures in traversing the body of the late President. Therefore, I +believe it was moving at its exit from the President's body at only +very slightly less than that velocity, so it was still traveling at +great speed. + +I believe in looking at Exhibit 398, which purports to be at +approximately the time the President was struck, I see that Governor +Connally is sitting directly in front of the late President, and +suggest the possibility that this missile, having traversed the low +neck of the late President, in fact traversed the chest of Governor +Connally. + +Mr. SPECTER. How much of the velocity, if any, or would there be an +appreciable diminution of the velocity of the projectile on passing +through the portions of President Kennedy's body which you have +described? + +Commander HUMES. I would have to defer to my associate, Colonel Finck, +for an opinion about this. + +Mr. SPECTER. Fine. As to any damage to the rib which you described +Governor Connally sustained, would that impact or trauma be consistent +with the markings which are shown on Exhibit 399? + +Commander HUMES. I think it quite possible. Here I think if this point +were to be explored further, a most valuable piece of evidence would be +an X-ray of the chest of Governor Connally, because I believe that this +missile could have struck the rib a glancing blow. + +The rib is a rather rigid structure, and the missile would not have +to strike it directly to cause the fracture that was described, and +the fracture is not very clearly described to me, and if an X-ray, for +instance, showed no metallic fragments in the chest of the Governor, +I would think it quite likely that this was the missile that had +traversed his chest, because I doubt if this missile would have left +behind it any metallic fragments from its physical appearance at this +time. + +Mr. SPECTER. Could that missile have traversed Governor Connally's +chest without having him know it immediately or instantaneously? + +Commander HUMES. I believe so. I have heard reports, and have been told +by my professional associates of any number of instances where people +received penetrating wounds in various portions of the body and have +only the sensation of a slight discomfort or slight slap or some other +minor difficulty from such a missile wound. I am sure he would be aware +that something happened to him, but that he was shot, I am not certain. + +Representative FORD. Would that have been the potential reaction of the +President when first hit, as shown in 385? + +Commander HUMES. It could very easily be one of some type of an +injury--I mean the awareness that he had been struck by a missile, I +don't know, but people have been drilled through with a missile and +didn't know it. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Humes, under your opinion which you have just given +us, what effect, if any, would that have on whether this bullet, 399, +could have been the one to lodge in Governor Connally's thigh? + +Commander HUMES. I think that extremely unlikely. The reports, again +Exhibit 392 from Parkland, tell of an entrance wound on the lower +midthigh of the Governor, and X-rays taken there are described as +showing metallic fragments in the bone, which apparently by this report +were not removed and are still present in Governor Connally's thigh. I +can't conceive of where they came from this missile. + +Representative FORD. The missile identified as Exhibit 399. + +Commander HUMES. 399, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Doctor Humes, would you have an opinion as to whether the +wounds on Governor Connally's wrist and thigh were caused by the same +bullet? + +Commander HUMES. In reading the description of the fragmentation that +was found, fragments were found in the wrist, one fragment was found +imbedded in his femur, I would feel it was definitely within the realm +of possibility that the same missile could have produced both of those +injuries. + +Mr. SPECTER. Those are all my questions, Mr. Chief Justice. + +The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other questions? If not, thank you very +much, Commander. You have been very helpful to us, indeed. + +Commander HUMES. Thank you very much, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. + +Mr. SPECTER. Commander Boswell. + +Mr. McCLOY. May I ask one more question? + +The CHAIRMAN. Of course you may. + +Mr. McCLOY. Earlier in the afternoon we had taken out of cellophane +bags here the clothing of the President. + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. And amongst them was the shirt. + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. From your examination of the wounds, of the defects, I +guess you would call it in the shirt---- + +Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. + +Mr. McCLOY. Would you from examining the tissues of that shirt have any +conclusions as to how that wound, how that missile passed through the +shirt? Was it from the rear to the front, or from the front to the rear? + +Commander HUMES. As I examined that exhibit today, sir, the threads are +fragmented and distorted in such a fashion which would indicate to me +that the missile passed through the shirt from the rear to the front. + + +TESTIMONY OF COMDR. J. THORNTON BOSWELL, MEDICAL CORPS, U.S. NAVY + +The CHAIRMAN. Commander Boswell, will you raise your right hand and be +sworn, please? + +Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission +will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help +you God? + +Commander BOSWELL. I do, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. Be seated, please. + +Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please? + +Commander BOSWELL. J. Thornton Boswell, Commander, Medical Corps, U.S. +Navy. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession? + +Commander BOSWELL. Physician. + +Mr. SPECTER. And where did you obtain your medical degree, please? + +Commander BOSWELL. At the College of Medicine, Ohio State University. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what experience have you had in your professional line +subsequent to obtaining that degree? + +Commander BOSWELL. I interned in the Navy and took my pathology +training at St. Albans Naval Hospital in New York. I was certified +by the American Board of Pathology in both clinical and pathological +anatomy in 1957 and 1958. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is your duty assignment at the present time? + +Commander BOSWELL. I am the Chief of Pathology at the National Naval +Medical School. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to participate in the autopsy of the +late President Kennedy? + +Commander BOSWELL. I did. + +Mr. SPECTER. And did you assist Doctor Humes at that time? + +Commander BOSWELL. Yes, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you been present here today during the entire course +of Doctor Humes' testimony? + +Commander BOSWELL. I have, sir; yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything that you would like to add by way of +elaboration or modification to that which Doctor Humes has testified? + +Commander BOSWELL. None, I believe. Doctor Humes has stated essentially +what is the culmination of our examination and our subsequent +conference, and everything is exactly as we had determined our +conclusions. + +Mr. SPECTER. And are you one of the three coauthors of the autopsy +report which has been previously identified as a Commission Exhibit? + +Commander BOSWELL. Yes; I am. + +Mr. SPECTER. All the facts set forth therein are correct in accordance +with your analysis and evaluation of the situation? + +Commander BOSWELL. Yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. And specifically, as to the points of entry and points of +exit which have been testified to by Doctor Humes, do his views express +yours as well? + +Commander BOSWELL. They do, yes. + +Mr. SPECTER. Doctor Boswell, would you state for the record what your +conclusion was as to the cause of death of President Kennedy? + +Commander BOSWELL. The brain injury was the cause of death. + +Mr. SPECTER. And in the absence of brain injury, what, in your view, +would have been the future status of President Kennedy's mortality, if +he had only sustained the wound inflicted in 385? + +Commander BOSWELL. I believe it would have been essentially an +uneventful recovery. It could have been easily repaired, and I think it +would have been of little consequence. + +Mr. SPECTER. Those are my only questions, Mr. Chief Justice. + +The CHAIRMAN. Does anyone have any questions of the Commander? If not, +Commander, thank you very much, indeed. You have been very helpful to +us. + +Mr. SPECTER. Colonel Finck. + + +TESTIMONY OF LT. COL. PIERRE A. FINCK, PHYSICIAN, U. S. ARMY + +The CHAIRMAN. Colonel Finck. + +Colonel, will you raise your right hand and be sworn? Do you solemnly +swear that the testimony you give before this Commission will be the +truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Colonel FINCK. I do. + +The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please, Colonel? + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please? + +Colonel FINCK. My first name is Pierre. My middle initial is "A". My +last name is Finck. + +Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, sir? + +Colonel FINCK. I am a physician. + +Mr. SPECTER. And by whom are you employed? + +Colonel FINCK. By the United States Army. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is your rank? + +Colonel FINCK. I am a lieutenant colonel in the Medical Corps. + +Mr. SPECTER. Where did you obtain your medical degree? + +Colonel FINCK. At the University of Geneva Medical School in +Switzerland. + +Mr. SPECTER. And in what year did you obtain that degree? + +Colonel FINCK. In 1948. + +Mr. SPECTER. What has your experience been in the medical profession +subsequent to obtaining that degree? + +Colonel FINCK. I had 4 years of training in pathology after my +internship, 2 years, including 2 years of pathology at the University +Institute of Pathology in Geneva, Switzerland, and 2 years at the +University of Tennessee Institute of Pathology in Memphis, Tenn. + +Mr. SPECTER. And how long have you been in the United States Army? + +Colonel FINCK. Since 1955. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what have your duties consisted of in the Army? + +Colonel FINCK. From 1955 to 1958 I performed approximately 200 +autopsies, many of them pertaining to trauma including missile wounds, +stationed at Frankfurt, Germany as pathologist of the United States +Army Hospital in Frankfurt, Germany. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you had any additional, special training or +experience in missile wounds? + +Colonel FINCK. For the past 3 years I was Chief of the Wound Ballistics +Pathology Branch of the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology and in that +capacity I reviewed personally all the cases forwarded to us by the +Armed Forces, and some civilian cases from the United States and our +forces overseas. The number of these cases amounts to approximately 400 +cases. I was called as a consultant in the field of missile wounds for +this particular case, and also last year in February 1963, the Surgeon +General of the Army sent me to Vietnam for a wound ballistics mission. +I had to testify in a murder trial involving a 30/30 rifle in the first +week of March this year, and I came back yesterday after one week in +Panama where I had to testify. I was sent to Panama by the Secretary of +the Army regarding the fatalities of the events of 9-10 in January of +1964. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you been certified by the American Board of +Pathology, Doctor Finck? + +Colonel FINCK. I was certified in pathology anatomy by the American +Board of Pathology in 1956, and by the same American Board of Pathology +in the field of forensic pathology in 1961. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe briefly for the Commission what +forensic pathology involves? + +Colonel FINCK. Forensic pathology is the study with the naked eye and +with the microscope of injuries, including missile wounds, trauma +in general. In summary, it is the part of pathology in relation to +the law, violent death being homicide, be it suicide, accidental or +undetermined. It also includes unexplained deaths, sudden deaths, and +poisoning. + +Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to participate in the autopsy of the +late President Kennedy? + +Colonel FINCK. Yes; I did. + +Mr. SPECTER. And are you one of the three coauthors of the autopsy +report which has been previously marked and introduced into evidence +here? + +Colonel FINCK. Yes, I am. + +Mr. SPECTER. Have you had occasion to conduct any experiments on the +effect of missile penetration of the brain reflected in the chart which +you have brought with you here today? + +Colonel FINCK. No, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. Of the skull--let me phrase the question this way: What +does the test which is depicted on the document before you relate to? + +Colonel FINCK. It is based on my observations, not on experiments. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would you pass that to me, sir, so that I may mark that as +a Commission Exhibit, and then I will ask you to identify it, please? + +Mr. Chief Justice, may I mark as Commission Exhibit No. 400 a document? + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be marked. + +(The document was marked Commission Exhibit No. 400 for identification.) + +Mr. SPECTER. I will ask Doctor Finck to describe it for us, please. + +Colonel FINCK. This is a scheme which I prepared before the 22d of +November. It is a teaching scheme, but it applies to the case in +discussion. It will be of help in understanding how I could identify +the entrance and the exit by examination of bone. "A" represents the +bony portion of the skull. "B" represents the cavity of the head, the +cranial cavity. "C" represents the entrance and "D" represents the +exit. The arrows indicate the missile path. + +This scheme is based upon observation of through and through wounds of +bone, and the same differences apply to a pane of glass. The surface +struck first by the missile in relation to the surface struck next +by the missile, this one, shows a smaller diameter, which means that +if you look at the route of entrance in this case here, C, from the +outside you will not see a crater. If you examine it from the inside, +you will see a crater corresponding to the bevelling, coning, shelving, +previously described by Commander Humes. + +In the case we are discussing today, it was possible to have enough +curvature and enough portion of the crater to identify positively the +wound of entrance at the site of the bone. + +Mr. SPECTER. Relating then your evaluation of the situation with +respect to President Kennedy, and turning to Commission Exhibit No. +388, what is your opinion as to whether point A is a wound of entrance +or exit? + +Colonel FINCK. My opinion as regards Exhibit 388, letter A, is that +this wound is the wound of entrance. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what are the characteristics of that wound which lead +you to that conclusion? + +Colonel FINCK. The characteristics were that seen from the inside of +the skull, I could see a beveling in the bone, a beveling that could +not be seen when the wound was seen from outside the skull. + +Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other individual characteristics that led +you to conclude A was the wound of entrance? + +Colonel FINCK. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you present when the three pieces of scalp were +reconstructed to form the major portion of the absent part of President +Kennedy's skull which Doctor Humes described? + +Colonel FINCK. I was present when several portions of bone were brought. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what did you observe, if anything, as to a +reconstructed hole from those three portions of skull? + +Colonel FINCK. May I refer to my scheme? + +Mr. SPECTER. Please do. + +Colonel FINCK. For the sake of demonstration. + +Mr. SPECTER. Fine. + +Colonel FINCK. At the level of the wound of exit, E, in my scheme, +Commission Exhibit No. 400, when viewed from the inside of the skull, +there was no crater, whereas when the wound is seen from the outside of +the skull, there was beveling, cratering, or coning--this is possible +to determine an exit even if only a portion of the bone is submitted, +for the reason that if there was enough bone submitted, there is enough +curvature to identify the inside and outside of the skull. Therefore +the fragment, to give you an example, this portion at the level of the +wound of exit can be oriented, and the outer surface of the skull and +the inner surface of the skull may be identified due to the curvature. + +And then you look at the direction of the beveling and you do see the +beveling when looking from the outside and you can identify an exit +wound. And that is what I did, and now I am referring to the actual +case in discussion, Commission Exhibit 388. + +Mr. SPECTER. That is B? + +Colonel FINCK. Letter B. We will see portions of bone in this general +area, the large wound in the bone on the right side of the skull of +President Kennedy. I had enough curvature to identify outside of +the skull, and inside of the skull, as the first step to orient the +specimen, and then I could determine the location of the beveling, and +I could therefore say that B, Commission Exhibit 388, is a wound of +exit. + +Mr. SPECTER. Based on your observations and conclusions, was President +Kennedy shot from the front, rear, side or what? + +Colonel FINCK. President Kennedy was, in my opinion, shot from the +rear. The bullet entered in the back of the head and went out on +the right side of his skull, producing a large wound, the greatest +dimension of which was approximately 13 centimeters. + +Mr. SPECTER. And as to angle, was he shot from below, from level, from +above, or what, in your opinion? + +Colonel FINCK. In my opinion, the angle can be determined only +approximately due to the fact that the wound of entrance is fairly +small and could give enough precision in the determination of the path, +but the dimension of the wound of exit, letter B of Exhibit 388, is so +large that we can only give an approximate angle. In my opinion, the +angle was within 45 degrees from the horizontal plane. + +Mr. SPECTER. Is that to say that there was a 45-degree angle of +declination from the point of origin to the point of impact, from the +point of origin of the bullet where the bullet came from a gun until +the point where it struck President Kennedy? + +The CHAIRMAN. In other words, you mean was he shot from above or below. + +Mr. SPECTER. Yes. + +Colonel FINCK. I think I can only state, sir, that he was shot from +above and behind. + +Mr. SPECTER. At this time I move for admission into evidence Exhibit +400, Mr. Chief Justice. + +The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. + +(The document was marked Commission Exhibit No. 400 for identification, +and was received in evidence.) + +Mr. SPECTER. As to Exhibit 385, Dr. Finck, was point C a point of entry +or a point of exit, in your opinion? + +Colonel FINCK. In my opinion point C of Commission's Exhibit 385 is a +wound of entrance. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what is the basis for that conclusion? + +Colonel FINCK. The basis for that conclusion is that this wound was +relatively small with clean edges. It was not a jagged wound, and that +is what we see in wound of entrance at a long range. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were you present here today and did you hear the entire +testimony of Doctor Humes? + +Colonel FINCK. Yes; I did. + +Mr. SPECTER. And do you concur in Dr. Humes' statements and opinions +regarding the point of entry C, point of exit D, and general angle on +the flight of the missile? + +Colonel FINCK. I certainly do. + +Mr. SPECTER. Then from what direction was President Kennedy shot on +entry point C? + +Colonel FINCK. From behind and above. + +Mr. SPECTER. Were the bullets used dumdum bullets, in your opinion, Dr. +Finck? + +Colonel FINCK. In what wound, sir? + +Mr. SPECTER. Well, start with the head wound, or the back wound, either +one. + +Colonel FINCK. In all the wounds considered, on the basis of the aspect +of the wound of entrance, dumdum bullets were not used. + +Mr. SPECTER. And what characteristics of dumdum bullets were absent, in +your opinion--in your evaluation of these wounds? + +Colonel FINCK. I would expect more jagged, more irregular and larger +wounds of entrance than described in this case. + +Representative FORD. With a dumdum bullet? + +Colonel FINCK. With a dumdum bullet. + +Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the question of likelihood of Governor +Connally having been wounded in the back and chest with the same bullet +which passed through President Kennedy in 385, what reduction would +there be, if any, in the velocity, considering the relative positions +of the two men in the automobile as reflected in photograph, Exhibit +398? + +Colonel FINCK. Of course, to reach precise figures we would need +experiments and similar circumstances with the same type ammunition at +the same distance through two human cadavers, which I did not do. + +On the basis that if we assume that this is one bullet going through +President Kennedy's body and also through Governor Connally's body, the +reduction of velocity would be of some extent after passing through +President Kennedy's body, but not having hit bones, the reduction +in velocity, after going through President Kennedy's body, would be +minimal. + +Mr. SPECTER. Would there be sufficient force then to inflict the wound +which Dr. Humes described from the Parkland Hospital records as having +been inflicted on Governor Connally's back and chest? + +Colonel FINCK. There would be enough energy to go through the body of +the Governor. + +Mr. SPECTER. In expressing your opinion on that subject, Doctor +Finck, have you taken into account the assumptions on distance, that +we are dealing here with a weapon that has a muzzle velocity in the +neighborhood of slightly in excess of 2,000, and that the vehicle +carrying these two individuals was approximately 150, about 150 feet +away from the site of origin of the missile? + +Colonel FINCK. At this range, a bullet of this velocity loses very +little velocity, and keeps upon impact a large amount of kinetic energy. + +Mr. SPECTER. You heard the whole of Doctor Humes' testimony, did you +not? + +Colonel FINCK. Yes; I did. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything that you would like to add to what he +said? + +Colonel FINCK. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Or would you like to modify his testimony in any way? + +Colonel FINCK. No. + +Mr. SPECTER. Do you subscribe to the observations and procedures which +he outlined during the course of his testimony? + +Colonel FINCK. I do. + +Mr. SPECTER. As having been conducted on President Kennedy? + +Colonel FINCK. I do. + +Mr. SPECTER. And do you share the opinions which he expressed in their +entirety in the course of his testimony here today? + +Colonel FINCK. I do. + +The CHAIRMAN. You might be seated, Colonel. + +Mr. McCLOY. Just as truthful seated as standing. + +Representative FORD. How many cases did you investigate to develop this +theory shown by Commission Exhibit 400? + +Colonel FINCK. Among the more than 400 cases I have reviewed, several +of them--I cannot give you an exact figure, I do not tabulate them, but +many of them had through and through wounds of the skull as well as of +flat bones, as, for instance, the sternum, the bone we have in front of +our chest, and this would apply also to a through and through wound of +the sternum. I have cases like that. + +There was a specific case in which I was able to identify the entrance +at the level of the sternum on the same basis as the criteria I have +given for the skull. Whenever a bullet goes through a flat bone, it +will produce that beveling, that cratering, shelving, and that I have +seen in numerous cases. + +Representative FORD. Is this a generally accepted theory in the medical +profession? + +Colonel FINCK. Yes, sir; it is. Am I allowed to quote a standard +textbook? + +The CHAIRMAN. You may; yes sir. + +Colonel FINCK. The textbook of legal medicine, pathology and toxicology +by Gonzalez, Vance, Halpern and Umberger does not give a scheme like I +have shown to you today, but describes similar criteria. + +As you know, one of the authors of the book I mentioned is still chief +medical examiner of New York City, with 20,000 medical-examiner cases a +year. + +Mr. SPECTER. Doctor Finck, after the path C-D described in No. 385, +would that be a straight line starting with the weapon itself, or was +that line deviated in any way or altered when it passed through the +body of President Kennedy? + +Colonel FINCK. For practical purposes line C-D is a straight line with +little or no deviation, the bullet not having hit bony structures. + +Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Finck, have you had an opportunity to examine +Commission's Exhibit 399? + +Colonel FINCK. For the first time this afternoon, sir. + +Mr. SPECTER. And based upon your examination of that bullet, do you +have an opinion as to whether in its current condition it could have +passed through President Kennedy at point C-D in 385 and then inflicted +the wound in the back and chest of Governor Connally? + +Colonel FINCK. Yes; I do. This is a bullet showing marks indicating the +bullet was fired. The second point is that there was practically no +loss of this bullet. It kept its original caliber and dimensions. There +was no evidence that any major portion of the jacket was lost, and I +consider this as one bullet which possibly could have gone through the +wounds you described. + +Mr. SPECTER. And could that bullet possibly have gone through President +Kennedy in 388? + +Colonel FINCK. Through President Kennedy's head? 388? + +Mr. SPECTER. And remained intact in the way you see it now? + +Colonel FINCK. Definitely not. + +Mr. SPECTER. And could it have been the bullet which inflicted the +wound on Governor Connally's right wrist? + +Colonel FINCK. No; for the reason that there are too many fragments +described in that wrist. + +Mr. SPECTER. And is the condition of Exhibit 399 consistent with the +type of a wound which Doctor Humes described on Governor Connally's rib? + +Colonel FINCK. Yes. + +Mr. McCLOY. I have a question. + +The CHAIRMAN. Go right ahead. + +Mr. McCLOY. From your examination of Exhibit 399, can you identify the +caliber of that bullet? + +Colonel FINCK. The caliber of this bullet, if I could measure it, but I +cannot touch it. + +The CHAIRMAN. We can. + +Colonel FINCK. I would say it is consistent with a 6.5 mm. + +Mr. McCLOY. Are you familiar with the Mannlicher 6.5 rifle? + +Colonel FINCK. I am familiar with the caliber 6.5. I can draw the +calibers for you on the blackboard. + +Mr. McCLOY. What is the initial velocity of a 6.5 mm. bullet of that +character? + +Colonel FINCK. Of the order of 2,000 feet per second. + +Mr. McCLOY. And you say there would not be a substantial diminution of +that velocity either at the point of impact or at the point of exit? + +Colonel FINCK. That is correct. + +Mr. SPECTER. One more question, Mr. Chief Justice. + +On 388, point A to B, what is your view, Dr. Finck, as to whether or +not that is represented by a straight line going back to the point of +origin of the weapon? + +Colonel FINCK. The difficulty in interpreting the path in line A-B of +Commission's Exhibit 388 is that, one, there is, as stated before, a +large wound of exit, and, two, there is a secondary path as indicated +by the fragments recovered. So we can have an assumption and state +that the general direction, the general path, the general angle of +this missile was from behind and above, and that the bullet, markedly +fragmented, went out of the President's head on the right side, but +that a portion of this bullet which badly fragmented was recovered +within the skull. + +Mr. SPECTER. In view of the impact on the skull at point A, it is +unlikely to be a straight line to B all the way back to the muzzle of +the weapon as it is, say, in 385 C-D, all the way back to the muzzle of +the gun. + +Colonel FINCK. In C-D, Commission's Exhibit 385, due to the fact that +there was no fragmentation, I can say that it is a straight line from +behind and above, whereas here, due to the fragmentation and to the +dual path, I can't give a precise angle, but I can say that the injury +is consistent with a wound produced by one bullet producing many +fragments. + +The CHAIRMAN. Senator, have you any questions you want to ask? + +Mr. McCLOY. May I ask one? + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes; go right ahead. + +Mr. McCLOY. Did you examine any of the fragments which were removed +from the President's skull? + +Colonel FINCK. I only saw one fragment shown to me when I arrived at +Bethesda, and it was an elongated black metallic fragment, and that +is the only one I saw to my recollection. I was told that it had been +removed from the brain of President Kennedy in the anterior portion of +his head. + +Mr. McCLOY. From that bullet, that fragment, could you determine, was +it sufficiently large to determine from the ballistic evidence the +caliber of the bullet? + +Colonel FINCK. No, sir; for the reason that to determine the caliber +you need the entire bullet, or at least an entire portion. You need a +portion of the bullet showing the entire diameter, and I was not shown +that. I was shown a fragment which represented a very small portion of +the original bullet. Therefore, at that time I could not say anything +on the possible original caliber. + +Mr. McCLOY. You examined no fragment which did contain those +characteristics? + +Colonel FINCK. No, sir; I did not see any entire bullet or bullet +showing the entire diameter. + +The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford? + +Representative FORD. I believe you testified, Colonel, that you +concurred in the previous testimony by Commander Humes and Commander +Boswell, and that you were one of the co-authors of the autopsy. At any +time during this process where you were conducting the autopsy, was +there any disagreement between any one of you three, any difference of +opinion as to anything involved in the autopsy? + +Colonel FINCK. No, sir. + +Representative FORD. There has been complete unanimity on what you saw, +what you did, and what you have reported? + +Colonel FINCK. Yes, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cooper? + +Senator COOPER. Colonel, I would like for you to look at Exhibit 388 +and at the possible trajectory of the bullet which entered President +Kennedy's head at A and then mark it as a possible point of exit by +"out". You remember there was testimony about a portion of the bullet +from point A to the place on the diagram marked "fragment" where a +fragment was found. I would like to ask if it is possible that the +trajectory of the bullet, from the point of origin, could have been A +to this point marked "fragment" as well as from A to the place marked +"out"? + +Colonel FINCK. I don't think so, sir. + +Senator COOPER. Why? Would you explain that answer? + +Colonel FINCK. I would think that I would consider the midportion of +this exit would labeled B, Exhibit 388, as the wound produced by most +of the fragments and the major portions of the fragmenting bullet. +This is only a small portion of it which makes me say that this is a +secondary path. + +Senator COOPER. What was the size of the fragment relative to the size +of the missile of the 6.5 Mannlicher, fired from the 6.5 Mannlicher +rifle? + +Colonel FINCK. Approximately one-tenth, or even less. + +Representative FORD. From your numerous case studies, is it typical +for a bullet, for a missile in this circumstance as shown in 388, to +fragment to the degree that this one apparently did? + +Colonel FINCK. Yes, it is quite common to find a wound of exit much +larger than the wound of entrance for weapons commonly used. + +Representative FORD. But is it typical for the missile to fragment to +the degree that this one did as shown in Exhibit 388? + +Colonel FINCK. Yes; it is. + +Representative FORD. Is it typical to find only a limited number of +fragments as you apparently did in this case? + +Colonel FINCK. This depends to a great extent on the type of ammunition +used. There are many types of bullets, jacketed, not-jacketed, pointed, +hollow-nosed, hollow-points, flat-nose, round-nose, all these different +shapes will have a different influence on the pattern of the wound and +the degree of fragmentation. + +Representative FORD. That is all. + +The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Colonel, very much for your help. + +Colonel FINCK. You are welcome, sir. + +Representative FORD. May I ask just one question? + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes; Colonel, we would like to ask just one more question. + +Representative FORD. Do these two wounds represent the same or a +different kind of bullet? + +Colonel FINCK. You are referring to one wound and this other wound here? + +Representative FORD. I am referring to the wound shown in Exhibit 388 +identified as point of entry A, and wound in Exhibit 385 identified as +C. + +Colonel FINCK. Due to the difference in the nature of the tissue, +difference in the nature of the target, it is perfectly possible that +these two wounds came from the same type of bullet, that one hit bony +structures and the other one did not, and that explains the differences +between the patterns of these two wounds. + +Representative FORD. Why one fragmented and one did not. + +Colonel FINCK. Yes. + +(Discussion off the record.) + +The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, again thank you very much. + +(Whereupon, at 3:45 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +_Wednesday, March 18, 1964_ + +TESTIMONY OF MICHAEL R. PAINE AND RUTH HYDE PAINE + +The President's Commission met at 9 a.m. on March 18, 1964, at 200 +Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. + +Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman +Cooper, Representative Gerald R. Ford, John J. McCloy, and Allen W. +Dulles, members. + +Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, +assistant counsel, Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel; Dr. Alfred +Goldberg, historian; and Charles Murray, observer. + + +TESTIMONY OF MICHAEL R. PAINE + +The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. + +Mr. Paine, I will just read a brief statement concerning the purpose of +the meeting today which is our practice. + +The purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of Mr. and Mrs. +Michael R. Paine. The Commission has been advised that Mr. and Mrs. +Paine made the acquaintance of the Oswalds during 1963, and that Mrs. +Marina Oswald lived in the Paine home from late September 1963 up to +the time of the assassination. + +Since the Commission is inquiring fully into the background and +possible motive of Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged assassin, it intends +to ask the above witnesses questions concerning Mr. Oswald, his +associations and relations with others, as well as questions concerning +any and all matters relating to the assassination. + +You have been furnished a copy of this, have you not? + +Mr. PAINE. I have seen something to that effect. + +The CHAIRMAN. You have seen it. + +Very well, will you rise and raise your right hand, please. Do you +solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission will be +the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? + +Mr. PAINE. I do. + +The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated; Mr. Liebeler will propound the +questions to you. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your name, please? + +Mr. PAINE. Michael R. Paine. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And your address? + +Mr. PAINE. 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born, Mr. Paine? + +Mr. PAINE. June 25, 1928. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where? + +Mr. PAINE. New York City. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly your educational background, +where you attended schools? + +Mr. PAINE. I went to school, high school in New York, went to 2 years +of Harvard and a year of Swarthmore, I have not finished college. + +Mr. DULLES. What class would you have been in Swarthmore? + +Mr. PAINE. 1953. + +Mr. DULLES. You would have been 1953 if you finished or did you finish? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I did not. + +Mr. DULLES. Excuse me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are presently married, are you not? + +Mr. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your wife's name is? + +Mr. PAINE. Ruth Hyde Paine. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have two children? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us who your parents are. + +Mr. PAINE. Lyman Paine is my father and Ruth Forbes Paine Young, or +Young is her present name. Mrs. Arthur Young now. She is my mother. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where is your father living at the present time? + +Mr. PAINE. He is in Los Angeles. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your mother? + +Mr. PAINE. Philadelphia. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any brothers and sisters? + +Mr. PAINE. I have a brother in Baltimore. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is his name? + +Mr. PAINE. Cameron Paine. + +Mr. LIEBELER. By whom are you presently employed? + +Mr. PAINE. Bell Helicopter, Fort Worth. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have a security clearance in connection with your +work at Bell Helicopter? + +Mr. PAINE. I suppose it is. I don't happen to know what the +classification is. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you work prior to working for Bell Helicopter? + +Mr. PAINE. I worked in Pennsylvania for Arthur Young. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was the nature of your employment with Mr. Young? + +Mr. PAINE. I had set up a shop in his barn and started work for myself +and then he employed me making models, helicopter models for himself. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately at what time, what period of time did you +work for Mr. Young? + +Mr. PAINE. That is very difficult to say. I began more or less +gradually first. I was doing other things. I am very vague about the +dates. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the year approximately? + +Mr. PAINE. I suppose I went to work at Bell in 1958. I have been there +4-1/2 years. + +Mr. DULLES. Is this Mr. Young your stepfather? + +Mr. PAINE. That is right + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you worked for him immediately prior to your going to +Bell Helicopter? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to working for Mr. Young, did you have any other +employment? + +Mr. PAINE. I think I came from the Army. Before that I worked at Bartol +Research Foundation in Swarthmore. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were going to tell us what that was. + +Mr. PAINE. That was mostly a job of setting up a laboratory to--was +nuclear research laboratory, Van Der Graaf generators it had there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was the nature of your work with Bartol? + +Mr. PAINE. Mostly all the work in making those machines, setting those +machines so they would run; making counters, coincidence counters, +instrumentation to operate the machine. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you work for Bartol? + +Mr. PAINE. That was just about a year, I believe. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to that did you have any other employment? + +Mr. PAINE. No, that was Swarthmore. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever work for the Griswold Manufacturing Co. + +Mr. PAINE. Oh, I did; yes. That was after--well, after the Army. I +think it was only a few months, I don't remember when it fitted in. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was the nature of your work with that company? + +Mr. PAINE. That was very boring. It was engraving precision scales. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You worked in the actual engraving of the scales? + +Mr. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What is the nature of your work with Bell Helicopter at +the present time? + +Mr. PAINE. I am called a research engineer. I work in a lab and design +and build and test models of new concepts of helicopter configurations. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been engaged in that type of work for Bell +throughout the entire time you have been employed by them? + +Mr. PAINE. I have been in the research laboratory research group that +long. It has all been problems---- + +Mr. DULLES. Are you a helicopter pilot by any chance yourself? + +Mr. PAINE. I am an airplane pilot. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But your work basically for Bell has been in the research +of design and operation of helicopters? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances under which you met +your wife and subsequently married her? + +Mr. PAINE. I met her at a folk dance party, folk dance meeting, and I +had known her for about 2 years before we married. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you meet her approximately? + +Mr. PAINE. We were married, I think, in 1958, it was the end of the +year so maybe it was 1957. What was the question again? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when you met her. + +Mr. PAINE. Two years before that would be, 1957. + +Mr. LIEBELER. 1956 or 1957. + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. We understand that you are a Quaker, Mr. Paine, is that +correct? + +Mr. PAINE. That is not quite correct. + +When I was in Philadelphia, I sang in various churches, and Ruth being +a Quaker, started going to Quaker meetings. Had I remained there I +would have become a Quaker. Moving to Texas there was a very small +Quaker community, and I joined the Unitarian Church after a while. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first become interested in the Quaker +religion; was it about the time you met your wife or was it before that. + +Mr. PAINE. No; I think she was instrumental in bringing me into that +circle. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Give us a brief description of the outside interests that +you and your wife and that your wife had during the time subsequent to +your meeting and until the time you left Philadelphia. Was she active +in church activities? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I wouldn't say so. She was active in the Young Friends +Committee of North America which was making an effort to bring a group +of Russians on tour of this country. It was in the first flush or +enthusiasm of East-West contacts, and after a couple of years they did +succeed in bringing those Russians on tour. That was the beginning of +her interest in Russian, learning the Russian language. I think that +was her only activity that I am aware of or remember right now. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether your wife engaged in a writing +campaign or a pen pal campaign between people in the United States and +people in the Soviet Union? + +Mr. PAINE. That was another part of this East-West contacts committee's +duties or tasks they took upon themselves and I think she was chairman, +accepted the chairmanship of that committee. + +For a while, it was almost moribund, very inactive. + +Mr. DULLES. Which committee was that, the committee to stimulate +letters between Russia and the United States? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; to find names and addresses on each side to connect +people together. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you yourself ever take part in any activity of that +group? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You spoke of the East-West contacts committee as being +active in trying to bring a group of Russians to the United States. Did +they engage in any activities other than this attempt to bring Russians +to the United States that you know of? + +Mr. PAINE. That is the only one I know of, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did they succeed in bringing some Russians to the United +States? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; they did. They brought three Russians, and then the +Russians reciprocated by taking a group of Quakers who knew Russian on +a tour of Russia. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you married to Ruth Hyde Paine at the time these +Russian people came to the United States under the auspices of the +East-West contacts committee? + +Mr. PAINE. I might have been; I don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether she actively participated in the +program to bring the Russians to the United States? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, she participated insofar as going to the meetings. I +don't believe she did most of the writing to the State Department and +what-not to try to arrange clearances and itineraries and things like +that, but she was at the meetings at which those things were discussed. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever discuss them with you in any detail? + +Mr. PAINE. We, I would often--I went to several of those meetings +myself. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the names of any of the Russians who came to +the United States in connection with this program? + +Mr. PAINE. I might recognize them if I saw them again, but right now +the names have escaped me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You say there were just three of them? + +Mr. PAINE. I think there were three; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you a member of the American Civil Liberties Union? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you become a member of that organization? + +Mr. PAINE. I suppose you become a member as soon as you contribute +money, and I may have contributed money a good many years back. I +didn't start going to a meeting of the organization until I was--I have +only been to about four perhaps, in Dallas, four meetings. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is Dallas the only place you have attended meetings of +the ACLU? + +Mr. PAINE. To my knowledge. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you acquainted with an organization known as the +Friends Peace Committee? + +Mr. PAINE. It is a familiar name. I guess not, though. I don't think I +have been to a meeting of theirs. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know if it is connected in any way with the Young +Friends Committee of North America. + +Mr. PAINE. I take it to be a Friend, you know, a Quaker committee but I +believe it is connected. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a gentleman by the name of Dennis Jamison, +who I believe is active in the Friends Peace Committee? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't think so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Or George Lakey? + +Mr. PAINE. For practical purposes; no. The names seem a little familiar +but I can't place them. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of the connection in which +it is familiar to you? + +Mr. PAINE. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with the Committee for Non-Violent +Action? + +Mr. PAINE. Many of these things sound familiar. I don't--I really am +saying no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you a member or have you ever attended any meetings +of the John Birch Society? + +Mr. PAINE. I am not a member. I have been to one or, I guess chiefly +one meeting of theirs. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where was that? + +Mr. PAINE. That was in Dallas? + +Mr. LIEBELER. When? + +Mr. PAINE. That was the night Stevenson spoke in Dallas. + +The CHAIRMAN. When? + +Mr. PAINE. The night Stevenson spoke in Dallas, U.N. Day. + +Representative FORD. Was that 1963? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances of your attendance at +that meeting and what happened? + +Mr. PAINE. I had been seeking to go to a Birch meeting for some time, +and then I was invited on this night so I went. It was an introductory +meeting. + +Mr. DULLES. On the 9th of November? + +Mr. PAINE. It was November something, I don't know what, a Wednesday or +Thursday night. + +Mr. LIEBELER. For the record I think the record should indicate that +Mr. Stevenson was in Dallas on or about October 24, 1963. Who invited +you to this meeting? + +Mr. PAINE. I had tried once before to go to a meeting which didn't +occur. There happens to be a member of our choir, a paid soloist who is +a John Birch advocate so I have been applying--so I have been telling +her, that I wanted to go. I suppose, I don't remember for certain but I +suppose she was the one who told me where and when. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did this meeting have anything to do with the activity +that occurred at Mr. Stevenson's meeting in Dallas? + +Mr. PAINE. No. You see they were taking place at the same time. It was +rather sparsely attended, most of them were down spitting on Stevenson. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The Birch meeting which you were down to was sparsely +attended? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Representative FORD. Was this an evening meeting or afternoon? + +Mr. PAINE. This is evening. + +Representative FORD. Evening. + +Mr. DULLES. May I ask, did you go out of curiosity rather than sympathy +or rather how did you happen to go? + +Mr. PAINE. I am not in sympathy. + +Mr. DULLES. So I gathered. + +Mr. PAINE. I have been to a number of rightist meetings and seminars in +Texas. I was interested in seeing more communication between the right +and the left; there isn't much liberal out there and so I wanted to be +able to speak their language and know that their fears--and be familiar +with their feelings and attitudes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any discussion at this meeting as far as you +can recall of Mr. Stevenson's appearance in Dallas? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I don't believe there was any. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any discussion of the policy of the Kennedy +administration? + +Mr. PAINE. There was no discussion at that meeting. It was a 2- or +3-hour lecture on a movie by Welch, and then a young man gave a few +more explanations about the organization. It was mostly an introductory +meeting. I think for newcomers. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Telling them about the John Birch Society itself? + +Mr. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Welch was not there, was he? + +Mr. PAINE. No; he was not. + +Representative FORD. Was this a movie in which he participated? + +Mr. PAINE. He was the speaker at a lectern in this movie. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any knowledge of the political attitudes or +activities of your father, George Lyman Paine? + +Mr. PAINE. I have very little specific knowledge of what he does. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us what you do know about your father's +political activities? + +Mr. PAINE. I have seen my father rather rarely. Since I have been in +Texas, I have seen him more frequently. I think I have been out there +three times now in the last 5 years. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you say out there--you mean Los Angeles? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; I have seen him twice. He was out to Texas. I have been +to Los Angeles twice, and he came at least once to Dallas. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Please fix the time when you went to Los Angeles? + +Mr. PAINE. Last summer, 2 weeks in August or something. I was there for +3 days, the first, the middle of August. + +I would guess it was about 2 years before that that I had been there. +I could be off by a year both ways. I can't even remember whether he +came--I think he probably interspersed his visit between mine. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall that he visited Irving on two different +occasions, once in Christmas, 1962? + +Mr. PAINE. One was a Christmas party, that is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And once in the summer of 1961. + +Mr. PAINE. I don't remember '61. I do remember pictures now, we have +pictures showing us outside so that was balmy weather. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So that in the period that you have been living in Texas +you have gone to Los Angeles on two different occasions and visited +your father there and he has been in Irving on two different occasions, +is that correct? + +Mr. PAINE. That seems, I think, to be right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you go on and tell us what you know about your +father's political activities? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Well, we would have to go back to a little to when I lived in New York +as a school student in school, grammar school and high school. There I +would see him very infrequently considering our close proximity and the +fact that I found him stimulating and I liked him. + +He took me to a few, one or possibly two, Communist meetings at my +considerable insistence. He didn't urge this upon me. I wanted to go, +to get the feeling of the--I asked him what he did or something and I +wanted to know all this, my mother said he was on the radical left. + +So, I went to a few of those meetings, and didn't--was unfamiliar +with the issues and questions they were debating. I got the feeling, +I came away with the impression, that these people, there were three +Communist groups apparently in New York at the time, and they were most +up in arms with each other, or there---- + +Mr. DULLES. Excuse me, how old were you at this time approximately? + +Mr. PAINE. This was somewhere from eighth grade to high school. + +Mr. DULLES. Yes. + +Representative FORD. What year about, what time span would that be? + +Mr. PAINE. Well 1947, I think I got out of high school, so it is 1943 +to 1947. + +Then I didn't--I got the flavor of those meetings. I found sort of an +intense people, people of high intensity. I didn't feel very much at +home there, and I guess I didn't go to any more. + +Mr. DULLES. Did they try to recruit you at all or to get you to be a +member or attend or join meetings? + +Mr. PAINE. No; they were glad to meet Lyman's son. That is he would +introduce me to friends or people he knew there, and I liked--I had +some favorable attitudes to the zeal of the group or the zeal of the +assembled people. + +They were fully committed to what they believed in. I had my own dreams +of how I would like to see society at the time and it wasn't along the +same line. + +So, I felt happy to have them there and I would go my course and +just--I didn't feel opposed to them; neither did I feel drawn to them, +although I tried to read some of Das Kapital at that time and Communist +manifesto. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever join any of these organizations? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, I didn't know of any organization as such. + +I went to this meeting in downtown New York. I didn't know--so +therefore I knew three groups. Maybe it was the Socialist group and the +Stalinist group and I think the group that Lyman was in, I don't know, +maybe he was a Socialist. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Which was the second group, was it the Stalinist? + +Mr. PAINE. I mentioned the Stalinist, Dubinsky, David Dubinsky, was the +only name I remember aside from Stalin, was a name I remember there, +and I can't now remember whose side who was on. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any clear recollection of what particular +group your father was associated with? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I never had--never knew what the name of any group he +might be associated with. + +Now, I suppose it was Trotsky. Trotskyite was a different distinct +group at that time. They probably wouldn't be mentioning their own +group. They would be mentioning their opponent's group. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Subsequent to your attendance at the meetings of these +groups at the time you have spoken of did you ever attend any other +meetings of similar groups either in New York or any other place? + +Mr. PAINE. I can't remember anything of a similar nature. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know of your father ever using any aliases? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I don't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are not familiar with the name Thomas L. Brown or +Lyman Pierce? + +Mr. PAINE. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When was the---- + +Mr. PAINE. I was aware that my father didn't talk readily about his +affairs. When we met we would talk at great length and we always do +talk. There is an amazing similarity in our natures. I have almost +thought there was one person trying to live in two bodies. + +But we have always been completely absorbed in subjects that were +closer to my--without going into what he was doing day to day or what +he was--I was aware that I didn't know, and I didn't pry or probe as to +what he might be doing there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So far as you know, however, he was actively +participating in the meetings and activities of this group? + +Mr. PAINE. Oh, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that your father and mother +were divorced when you were about 4 years old? + +Mr. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were at that time living in New York City? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Subsequently you and your mother. + +Mr. PAINE. She got a divorce in Reno, Nev., she had a house in Virginia +City. + +The CHAIRMAN. In New York you were living with your father or mother? + +Mr. PAINE. They lived together in New York. Then there was a year, a +part of a year, we moved to Philadelphia. They may have separated and +he tried to come back or something like that, and then we went to Reno, +Nev. + +Mr. LIEBELER. During the time you lived in Philadelphia, was your +father living with the family? + +Mr. PAINE. I think he was there part time. I don't remember that for +sure. We had two houses there. One I think I remember him slightly and +the other one I don't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your father was not present during the time that you +stayed in Nevada? + +Mr. PAINE. No; he was not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You and your brother stayed in Nevada with your mother? + +Mr. PAINE. And a housekeeper also. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After you left Nevada where did you live? + +Mr. PAINE. We went over to California. Santa Barbara. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who lived there at that time with you? + +Mr. PAINE. A friend of hers, Kathleen, now she was originally Kathleen +Schroeder, a sister of my uncle, now Kathleen Forbes, and a distant +cousin of my mother's, and I think my grandfather, grandparents, would +come out occasionally. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was your father present at that time? + +Mr. PAINE. No; he was not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He wasn't there at any time during your stay in Santa +Barbara? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't remember that. I am not certain of it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you live in Santa Barbara, Calif.? + +Mr. PAINE. Each year my grandfather paid our way back across the +country to Naushon Island in Massachusetts. We lived there 3 years. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go after that? + +Mr. PAINE. Cambridge, Mass. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you there? + +Mr. PAINE. From the third to the sixth grade. + +Mr. LIEBELER. With whom did you live? + +Mr. PAINE. With my mother on Fairweather Street. + +The CHAIRMAN. Is this of particular importance to the investigation, it +is very lengthy, and I don't know particularly what it bears upon. If +it is in relation with his father, let's get at that and get it over +with, but I don't see what this man's history from the time he was +born--I don't see how it bears on it. It just takes altogether too much +time for an extraneous purpose, it seems to me. Let's get on with the +thing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It bears on the point only on what connection he has with +his father. + +Mr. PAINE. Let me go to that. I have seen him on a few times, once a +year would be a frequent--we felt great affinity in our bent, not in +the actual application of the way we would like to do things but in a +concern for the value of people. I know very little about what he does, +and he has not tried to proselytize me, and he has not volunteered +information about what he did. + +I think a certain change has come over him since. For many years or +years in college or something I thought he was still interested in his +revolutionary groups and that was a pity because that wasn't going to +happen, and it was to be a dead end, a blind, he would come to the end +of his life and his cause had fizzled out. + +When I went out to California more recently, the last time we were +talking about the civil rights movement and, shall we say, the +revolution occurring in this country spearheaded by the Negroes' +demand for dignity, that was a subject that completely absorbed the +weekend and there were various Negroes who came around the country, who +happened to pass through at that time. + +You probably might be interested in regard to Cuba. I was surprised +sometime in the conversation someone there had spoken favorably of the +revolution in Cuba. This was a surprise to me, I didn't realize that +this was part of the--was the present thrill, shall we say. I don't +know whether that applied to Lyman also or whether--I think he went +along with that. We didn't get around to arguing on that point. I only +mention that in passing. That was about the full extent of it. + +She mentioned Cuba in this favorable way, and it was a subject I +didn't---- + +Mr. DULLES. Who was this she? + +Mr. PAINE. It was Grace somebody, I have forgotten. + +Mr. DULLES. One of the people present in these conversations? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. So that was my only knowledge that he was, or the +people around him were, interested in Cuba, and that is the only thing +I can see has any bearing in your interest here. + +Mr. LIEBELER. To what extent would you say that your father has +influenced your own political views and attitudes? + +Mr. PAINE. I would have guessed it was almost negligible. I was aware +that sometime in the beginning of college or something I used the +language of the masses or I used jargon which I recognized, came to +perceive was of quite leftist nature, and I think that at the time I +used to get The Nation, that was in high school. I probably picked it +up more from the magazines and things of that sort than from him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss your father with Lee Oswald? + +Mr. PAINE. On a phone call shortly after the assassination he called +and thought it was outrageous to be pinning Lee Oswald who was a +scapegoat, an ideal person to hang the blame on. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your father called you? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; he called me, yes. He didn't suppose it was true, I +told him I thought it probably was true. And I told him to keep his +shirt on. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything else about that conversation? + +Mr. PAINE. No. It was chiefly both he and Freddy, his wife, had to be +calmed down. They thought it was a steamrollered job of injustice or +something. And I didn't think their admonitions were--I think not to +say anything, not to join the hubbub or jump on the things I said or I +took it to be things I said would be distorted and blown up and added +to the hullabaloo to lynch Lee. + +Representative FORD. Did they infer or imply that the allegations or +accusations against Oswald bore the semblance of a lynching? And I use +lynching in the broad sense. + +Mr. PAINE. They did not use lynching at all. I added that. They thought +he was---- + +Representative FORD. Being railroaded? + +Mr. PAINE. No; he said that no one, no member of the Friends of Cuba +would want to assassinate the President. That was a crazy idea. + +Representative FORD. You said that was a crazy idea? + +Mr. PAINE. No; he said that. Therefore, he concluded, and this was the +same, similar to my feeling, that I first didn't think Oswald had done +it because I didn't see how it fitted in, how it helped his favorite +ideals. + +And Lyman then said the same thing. Therefore, including himself, +Lyman, that Lee couldn't have done it, and that this must be--Lee was +the ideal person to hang it on. + +Representative FORD. How soon was this phone call after the +assassination? + +Mr. PAINE. I think it was--he did not know, I think, that we had Marina +staying with us, but he was one of the first to connect, guess that it +was us. He called and asked us, "Is this you?" + +Representative FORD. "Is this you?" What? I don't quite understand the +context here. + +Mr. PAINE. He heard it on the news and he heard Mrs. Paine, and Marina +had been staying with a Mrs. Paine and he called to ask, "Are you the +Paines?" + +Mr. LIEBELER. Had you discussed Lee Oswald with your father prior to +this time? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I don't think I mentioned him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether your father knew Lee Oswald? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I do not know. Or I gather since he had such a funny +idea of him over the phone. + +Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your judgment the only way your father +heard of Lee Oswald, connected Lee Oswald to you, was through a news +broadcast that he had heard connecting Oswald with somebody named Paine? + +Mr. PAINE. Or Marina had stayed with the Paines. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss your father with Lee Oswald? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I did not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And Oswald never asked you about your father in any way +or did he indicate that he knew of your father? + +Mr. PAINE. No; he did not. I think Ruth came closer to revealing that +my father had--you will have to ask her about that question. I did not +mention my father to Lee. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you meet Lee Oswald? + +Mr. PAINE. I met him sometime in the spring of 1963. + +Mr. DULLES. This is Oswald? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; Lee Oswald. + +Mr. PAINE. We were invited to a party, Ruth and I were invited to a +party, given by Everett Glover. I had a cold and wasn't able to go. +Ruth went at that time and subsequently went once or twice to see +Marina. And she invited Marina and Lee to our house for dinner, and +here the date that comes to mind is April 10. + +Mr. DULLES. Where was Marina staying at this time? + +Mr. PAINE. Berry Street. + +Mr. DULLES. Berry Street in Dallas. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Berry Street or would it be Neely Street? + +Mr. PAINE. Neely Street. So this was the first time I saw them. I had +to go over, he didn't drive a car and I had to go over, and pick him +up in my car and bring him back to the house. So I went over to Neely +Street and saw them. Marina took about half an hour to pack all the +things for Junie. Meanwhile I was talking to Lee at their house there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us about that conversation? + +Mr. PAINE. I asked him what he was doing, his job, and he showed me a +picture on the wall, which was a piece of newspaper, I think--that is +beside the point. I asked him about Russia, what he liked about---- + +Mr. DULLES. Could we get that picture? + +Mr. PAINE. I think it was beside the point. It was a piece of newspaper +showing a fashion ad, I think. I think his job was---- + +Mr. DULLES. Nothing to do with politics at all, to do with his job. I +see. + +Mr. PAINE. I asked him what he thought. I wanted to know why he had +gone to Russia and why he had then come back. He had told me he had +become a Marxist in this country without ever having met a Communist, +by reading books and then he got to Russia, and---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he went to Russia? + +Mr. PAINE. He said he wanted to go to Russia. He had chosen to go to +Russia. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't elaborate on it? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I gathered he had had an interest in going to Russia +for a number of years prior to the time he got there and decided that +that was the paradise of the world and through fortunate relations +between this country and Russia at the time, I would have to remember +history to know whether that was a warm, a friendly time or not, but he +indicated both his going and his coming were fortunate times in history +or something that made it possible for him to do these. + +Mr. DULLES. Fortunate times? + +Mr. PAINE. Fortunate times, this was sort of an accident in history. +This is what I gathered from his conversation. + +Representative FORD. Fortunate that he could leave at the time and +fortunate that he could come back. + +Mr. PAINE. Fortunate that he could be accepted to emigrate to Russia. +He told me that he had--so he went to Russia and he tried to surrender +his passport to the Russians but the State Department would not give +it to him, or the consul in Moscow, which was--which proved to be +fortunate because then a few years later when he wanted to return it +would not have been possible, except if they still had his passport. He +had not legally surrendered it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that was a fortunate circumstance? + +Mr. PAINE. I think he smiled, he indicated to me he genuinely had +wanted to become a Russian citizen and to surrender it. He wanted to +renounce his American citizenship. He tried to, and the Russians, he +told me, had accepted his bona fide intentions and tried to get the +passport away from the Americans. + +Representative FORD. Was the failure to get his passport a determining +factor in their not accepting his desires? + +Mr. PAINE. No. He told me that they did accept his desires despite his +inability to get the passport and give it to them. + +Representative FORD. Despite his inability? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. "They" being the Russians? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; they being the Russians and they issued to him, he told +me, the standard kind of temporary citizenship paper which is given to +all emigres to Russia, and there are some---- + +Mr. DULLES. Was it citizenship paper he said or something else, +citizenship paper? + +Mr. PAINE. Now, I suppose there was a regular paper and everybody would +know of it. + +Mr. DULLES. Domicile paper or something allowing domicile. + +Mr. PAINE. I had thought, my impression was, that it was kind of +probationary citizenship. It is a kind of paper issued for a year to +somebody who is seeking citizenship. That was my impression at the time. + +Mr. DULLES. Could it have been a probationary residence permit or +something of that sort. He said citizenship, did he? + +Mr. PAINE. That was my impression. That it was the commencement of a +citizenship paper. + +Mr. DULLES. Did he tell you about any difficulties he had in getting +permission to stay on in Russia? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, this was a question. I asked him how was it they so +readily accepted--you know other Americans have a hard time staying +more than 30 days there, "How was it that you were so readily accepted +into the bosom of Soviet Society?" And to that he answered, "well, it +was just a fortunate mood between the countries or something to that +effect," is something that I gathered. + +I didn't remember the history and I thought it would be--he smiled a +little bit. I can't remember whether he smiled a little bit when I +then asked him how did he manage to get out, at one time, but at one +time I do remember he smiled as though there were a story there, and I +didn't--I supposed the story would be too intricate, not interesting +enough to try to get him to relate it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You did not ask him to relate the story? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I did not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever learn the circumstances under which he left +Russia, from him? + +Mr. PAINE. As he told me at that same half hour before we came back to +our house on Fifth Street,---- + +Mr. DULLES. Was this the first time you had seen him? + +Mr. PAINE. All this happened in the first half hour. + +Mr. DULLES. The first time you had ever seen him? + +Mr. PAINE. The first time I had seen him or at least that first night. + +He told me he had decided, that he had wanted, to come back to this +country and it was through the fortunate circumstance of the Embassy +still having his passport which was a legal loophole that made it +legally possible, and I asked him--at sometime I thought this was +rather nice that the State Department, I think this was a little later +in the same evening, the State Department had forewarned him, had +granted him money also, to come back. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that? + +Mr. PAINE. He told me that and I was rather proud of the State +Department for its generous behavior toward such a wayward citizen. +He actually had spoken--I had mentioned this because he had spoken +abusively of the American Government. + +Mr. LIEBELER. At this time, during the first meeting? + +Mr. PAINE. Not just the American Government--yes; at this same meeting. +He had spoken with abuse of, sort of resentment that they didn't let +him have his passport and I thought, well now, that was just kind of a +nice trick, by having a consular official there that he knew, this man +wanted to change his mind, this little legal dodge of not wanting to +give him his passport which I think is illegal if the man wants it, it +would be the thing to permit him to come back. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you point that out to Lee Oswald? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; I did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't think he responded to it. + +Mr. DULLES. He talked about surrendering the passport rather than +surrendering citizenship, did he? + +Mr. PAINE. The two were synonymous, I thought, that if you surrendered +your passport and with the intention of adopting another one that was +renouncing American citizenship. + +Mr. DULLES. I see. + +Mr. PAINE. Which he wanted, he told me he wanted to renounce his +American citizenship. He said that quite flatly. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything else about this conversation +concerning his trip back and his attitude toward the State Department +and the United States that he discussed during this first meeting? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't believe so. I think I have got it a little confused +with Marguerite Oswald what she said at the assassination, at the time +of the night of the 22d. She was resentful of the State Department, +thinking it had been remiss in taking so long in getting him back. I +don't remember whether he had voiced the same--I am confused, I don't +know whether it was he or she who had voiced this resentment. I thought +to the contrary it was very generous. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether or not Oswald himself voiced +resentment against the Government of the United States in this +connection? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; I do remember that. That was the thing that prompted me +to say that it was actually rather nice of them to have been illegal +just for this---- + +Mr. DULLES. I didn't catch the last. Nice of them to have been what? + +Mr. PAINE. I thought it probably was illegal of the embassy official +not to hand over his passport when he demanded it in order to surrender +it to the Soviet Union. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't remember Oswald responding to that when you +made that answer to him? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't remember his response. + +The CHAIRMAN. You also said you thought it was rather nice of the State +Department to do that in order to make it possible for him to return if +he wanted to? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; I said both of these things. They had given him money. +They had held, a peccadillo to hold, the passport out of the knowledge +that he might, such people might, want to return, change their mind, +and then to provide him money moreover to come back, this all seemed +to me rather nice even though it had taken 2 more months than when he +originally wanted to come back. + +I had said, this in response to his, some kind of expression on his +part of criticism of the State Department or the foreign embassy or +whatever it is. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember why he was critical? Was he critical +because they had not given him his passport when he went to Russia +or was he critical because in his opinion they had taken so long to +arrange his return? + +Mr. PAINE. I think he was critical when he first mentioned it, he +seemed to have the critical attitude--some of this critical attitude +may have been facial expressions or way of speaking, which was somewhat +common with him. Therefore, I can't remember for sure whether it was in +the words or in his attitude. He was critical, though, certainly of +the first, of the State Department not relinquishing his passport. + +Mr. DULLES. Was he critical at this latter time? + +Mr. PAINE. He was critical of that as he was relating to his desire +to go to the Soviet Union. He was relating the story to me, and then +he had spoken of the State Department as though they were a bunch of +bastards, wouldn't--or illegal or something. Anyway, he was unfavorable. + +Mr. DULLES. But did you indicate he was rather glad that they had later +taken this position so that he could get his passport back or did I +misunderstand you on that? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, I pointed out to him that or said "it was kind of +fortunate that they had held your passport," and I think he nodded his +assent to that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he decided to return to the United +States from Russia? + +Mr. PAINE. Most of this conversation, I think, was when we had first +met and I wasn't sure whether he was speaking derogatively of the +Soviet Union in order to win my good graces or thinking he could win my +friendship that way. + +However, he spoke more with disfavor of the Soviet Union during this +first meeting than was quite comprehensible to someone who had gone +there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say? + +Mr. PAINE. But chiefly what he said was that he didn't have choice of +where he could live, you were assigned, he spoke with a certain amount +of derision, scorn of the fact that you were assigned jobs, and he +thought the food was boring, I think, to use his word. He had mentioned +that he liked to--he had gone hunting with some friends, that was the +only thing he mentioned about the Soviet Union in which I sensed that +he had been with people except for also mentioning that he had been the +center of interest as an American who couldn't drive a car. + +But apparently he had relished going hunting. He had also said with +resentment, a Soviet citizen could not own a rifle. They could own +shotguns but not a rifle, and that you could shoot a rifle only by +joining a rifle club which he said was a paramilitary organization. + +Again, this was with a degree of scorn in his voice or his attitude. I +had assumed that he at least tried the paramilitary organization, the +rifle club, so he could speak with such scorn, with knowledge of what +he was speaking about. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he had joined an organization in +which he was permitted to shoot a rifle? + +Mr. PAINE. No; he did not. I don't know that for a fact. I had assumed +from his conversation that he had tried it but I gather that he did not +like this organization. + +Mr. DULLES. Did he say anything about having to leave the rifle at the +club, that you couldn't take the rifle away from the club, or anything +of that kind? + +Mr. PAINE. I assume that was true. He didn't mention it, he mentioned +that a Soviet citizen could not possess a rifle. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he speak of any training that he might have received +in connection with either a rifle or a shotgun while he was in the +Soviet Union? + +Mr. PAINE. No; he didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you the degree of facility with which +he used either of these weapons while he was in the Soviet Union? + +Mr. PAINE. No; he did not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He--is there anything else he told you about this hunting +club or this rifle or shotgun that you can remember now? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I am not particularly interested in rifles and hunting +so that I didn't--it was an ideal opportunity--I think he did love +hunting so I think it would have been an ideal way to reach him in a +somewhat human way. + +Mr. DULLES. You got no idea of how much time he was at the rifle club +or what? Did it seem to be a frequent occupation? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I can't say I had any fruitful idea of whether he was +a member of it. I assumed he was a member of it. He didn't say he +was a member of it. I assumed he spoke with authority saying it was +a paramilitary organization and somehow conveying the idea that he +didn't like that aspect of it and, therefore, I assumed he didn't like +it. He spoke only with pleasure of his hunting trip. He mentioned a +hunting trip, I don't think he mentioned them in plural, which he had +taken with some friends. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any more details about that hunting trip? + +Mr. PAINE. We talked, this was within the first half hour, the talk was +very brief. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention to you this hunting trip or anything +relating to a rifle or shotgun in the Soviet Union at any later time? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't know what time he was referring to. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I mean at any other time after the first meeting with you +did he refer again to his activities in the Soviet Union? + +Mr. PAINE. I see. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In connection with this rifle? + +Mr. PAINE. No; that subject never came up again. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you at this first meeting about his work in +the Soviet Union? + +Mr. PAINE. I had gathered he worked somewhere in a television factory. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; I can't remember whether it was television, it was +electronics of some sort. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you the nature of his work? + +Mr. PAINE. He did not tell me. I thought to myself that if he was in a +very honorable position there he would have mentioned it. So, I thought +he was probably just a mechanic of some sort, wiring it together. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much he was paid? + +Mr. PAINE. I can't remember, I think he did but I don't remember what +he said. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that he received any income other than +from his work? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I don't believe he told me anything about that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. We have been referring primarily here in our questioning +to the first meeting that you had with him, but do you remember any +subsequent conversation with Oswald about his work, his pay, and his +income in the Soviet Union after this first meeting? + +Mr. PAINE. I think he thought it was too low. He thought the standard +of living, he recognized the standard of living was low, and they were +restricted therefore in their--just too confined, told where to live. +The food was boring and there was nothing to do. I didn't get the idea +it was lack of money. He did not say anything about lack of money. + +Mr. DULLES. I wonder if we could get for our guidance the approximate +number of times he saw Lee Oswald? + +Mr. PAINE. It was about four times that we had lengthy conversations. + +Mr. DULLES. Four times, that is four times prior to the date of the +assassination. + +Mr. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. DULLES. Or that includes all the times? + +Mr. PAINE. I didn't see him again after the assassination. + +Mr. DULLES. You didn't see him after the assassination. Four times +prior to the assassination including this one time you have already +described? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. This is the first meeting before he went to New Orleans +and then about three weekends after he came back---- + +Mr. DULLES. I think that will be taken up. I just wanted to get in my +mind approximately how many times in all you saw him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald at any time indicate to you that he was +treated by the Russian authorities in any way different from ordinary +Russian citizens who occupied a similar status in the Soviet Union? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I wasn't aware of that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about any special training that he had? + +Mr. PAINE. No; he did not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention his living accommodations? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, with some kind of resentment he did, that it was +assigned, and I think that is about all he said. + +Mr. DULLES. May I ask whether these questions relate to all the four +times or just to the first time, are we still on the first? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Basically on the first time, sir, unless we specify to +the contrary. + +Mr. DULLES. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what else you and Oswald discussed during this +first meeting that you had? + +Mr. PAINE. Unfortunately that first meeting was the clearest one. I +was asking him questions, taking his answers. I had hoped when I met +this man to have insights into Russia, both meeting him and meeting his +wife, and interesting talks about the differences between the Russian +system and the American, the western system. + +Then I found that he was--some questions, later in the evening, the +conversation was translated into Russian also so that Marina could +follow along. + +Mr. DULLES. You mean after the first half hour when you were +preparing---- + +Mr. PAINE. That is right, when we came back after dinner to our house. + +Mr. DULLES. Your house. So this went on? + +Mr. PAINE. What you have heard now occurred mostly in the first half +hour when I was speaking directly to him when I met him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Then you returned to Irving to your house and had dinner +and had the additional conversation? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. Now, in all the subsequent conversations, you are going +to get less information in what he said. + +Mr. DULLES. In the first part of this meeting you were alone and in the +second part of the meeting there were other people there? + +Mr. PAINE. My wife and Marina was able to join us. At this time Marina +was packing things for Junie and I noticed that he was speaking very +harshly to her. He was telling her what bag or satchel to take. I +gathered from it, of course, it was in Russian, and I thought to +myself, here is a little fellow who certainly insists on wearing the +pants. + +Mr. DULLES. You don't understand Russian yourself? + +Mr. PAINE. No. So he spoke loudly to her, and didn't rise from his +seat. But spoke surprisingly harshly especially in front of a guest. + +Mr. DULLES. How did she take this? + +Mr. PAINE. With a bit of umbrage. She didn't like it. It rankled her. + +Representative FORD. In other words, this half hour conversation took +place in their apartment? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Representative FORD. While she was packing the bags to go to your home? + +Mr. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. DULLES. Was she packing the bags for some days or was this---- + +Mr. PAINE. No; just bottles, diapers, clothing, something. + +Mr. DULLES. For a weekend? + +Mr. PAINE. Just for the evening. + +Mr. DULLES. Just for an evening? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't know why it took so long but it did. I guess they +weren't quite ready when I arrived. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What else did you and Oswald speak about during this +evening, do you remember? + +Mr. PAINE. After supper the conversation was translated into Russian, +and I wanted to gather Marina's or get Marina's corroboration of +certain things he said about Russia and there we found when she had +differing opinions from him that he would not let her, he would slap +her down verbally, and not let her express them or say--Ruth told me +later, he was calling her a fool, "You don't know anything." + +When I encountered this, I actually trusted Marina to know--the +questions I was asking, it seemed to me could be better answered by +Marina, so I wasn't paying very close attention to what he had said +about that. + +Mr. DULLES. Could you indicate on what points they seemed to differ or +what points that he raised that irritated her or vice versa in their +discussion about Russia? You said he slapped her down. I was wondering +on what kind of points he slapped her down. + +Mr. PAINE. I have unfortunately tried to remember those points myself +wishing, wondering whether hypnosis would bring it out of me as a tape +recorder, or something. I was interested to know whether the Russians +were happy with their system, whether they felt the presence of the +Secret Police, these are questions, I don't remember asking them, these +are questions that I would have been interested in. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any response either from Marina or from +Oswald on these points? + +Mr. PAINE. And I don't remember anything specific here. I just remember +that I encountered too many points, where they apparently differed and, +therefore, I had in mind I will just wait until she can learn English +and we will get it from the horse's mouth. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you speak with Oswald during this first meeting of +the circumstances under which he met Marina and married her in Russia? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't remember when I learned that. I think I learned it +from Ruth, who had spoken to Marina on this subject. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did you learn? + +Mr. PAINE. It may have been--I don't remember when it occurred, it may +have been after the assassination, I may have read it in the paper or +something. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember any specific conversations with Oswald +on that subject? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I don't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lee Oswald ever speak to you about his experience in +the United States Marine Corps? + +Mr. PAINE. He mentioned that his brother went in the Marine Corps and +apparently enjoyed it and he had then, I think he said he had left +school early to join it and I gathered, I thought to myself, he is +expecting to find the joy his brother found there and he did not find +it. He did not like the Marine Corps. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you anything--pardon me. + +Mr. PAINE. He did not mention that I can recall his exit from the +Marine Corps. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention the name of Governor Connally in +connection with his experiences in the Marines? + +Mr. PAINE. Not that I remember. + +Mr. DULLES. Did he ever mention the President in this or any other +conversations? + +Mr. PAINE. He mentioned the President only once that I can remember +specifically; at the ACLU meeting I think. + +Mr. DULLES. At the which? + +Mr. PAINE. At the ACLU meeting I took him to. He had mentioned, he +thought President Kennedy was doing quite a good job in civil rights, +which was high praise coming from Lee. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussion during this first meeting +other than the discussion you have already mentioned concerning +Oswald's political beliefs? + +Mr. PAINE. There, of course, I was interested in that subject, found we +differed, and then in order to not wrestle with concepts or arguments +that were unmanageably large, I tried to bring it down to more specific +instances of how he would like to see the world be. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did you become aware of the fact that you differed, +do you remember? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't remember him making any bones about it the very +first meeting. He told me he had become a Marxist, in his own apartment +there, that he had become a Marxist by reading books and never having +met a Communist in this country. + +And he also then told me with a certain sadness or regret that he +couldn't speak about political and economic subjects with his people, +and fellows at work. + +(At this point Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were going to mention specific areas of political +discussion that you had with him. + +Mr. PAINE. One other thing happened in this first half hour, the +most fruitful half hour I had ever had with him. He had mentioned +his employer. I probably asked him why did he leave this country to +go to the Soviet Union, and his supreme theme in this regard is the +exploitation of man by man, by which he means one man making a profit +out of another man's labor, which is the normal employment situation in +this country and to which he found--took, felt great resentment. + +He was aware that his employer made--he made more money for his +employer than he was paid and specifically he mentioned how his +employer of the engraving company goods and chattels that he had, +that Oswald didn't have, and with some specific resentment toward +this employer, and I thought privately to myself that this resentment +must show through if he ever meets his employer, it must sort of show +through and that his employer wouldn't find that man very attractive. +So this was his guiding theme. + +The reason it appears that this country, the system in this country had +to go, had to be changed, was because of this supreme immoral way of +managing affairs here, the exploitation of man by man which occurs in +this country. + +We discussed about it occurring in the Soviet Union, the taxation of a +man's labor, it occurs there also, and it appeared that only, he seemed +to agree or sometimes I had to feed him, this conversation now is a +later one, when we were talking about the specifics of exploitation of +man by man, he agreed that the only difference was that in the Soviet +Union it is a choice which is impersonal. + +The person who decides the man's wages and labor does not stand to gain +by it whereas in this country the man who decides stands to gain by it. + +Mr. DULLES. The man who decides what, to employ the other man? + +Mr. PAINE. No; what wage to pay him. + +Mr. DULLES. What wage to pay him? + +Mr. PAINE. Or what his return shall be. So that was the only--the most +important, by far economic and political almost, let's call it economic +doctrine he held. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he translate that economic doctrine to specific +policies that he thought should be adopted or specific changes that +should be made in the structure of this country? + +Mr. PAINE. I had never, to my satisfaction, uncovered an area of +progressive change that he would advocate. I asked him how did he think +this change was going to come about, and he never answered that. + +And it seemed to me he was critical of almost everything that occurs +in this country. So that he did not--I did not come to--did not know +of anything in which he could see a progressive evolutionary change or +policies that could be pushed in order to promote his ideals. + +Representative FORD. Did he react academically, intellectually, +violently or in what way did he express these views? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, he was quite dogmatic. First he wanted to put me in a +category. In one of the later talks--when we first met he talked very +freely and then I think as we made, in later conversations, I had to do +more and more of it--make more and more effort to draw something out of +him. + +In his later conversations, Ruth found him so bothersome. + +Mr. DULLES. What was that word? + +Mr. PAINE. Bothersome, that she couldn't join the conversations. He +would get too angry or too---- + +Representative FORD. He resented the probing or the questioning? + +Mr. PAINE. No; he did not really resent the probing. For instance, take +this issue of the exploitation of man by man. When we had boiled it +down to this rather fine difference or technical difference that one +was done by an impersonal body and one was done personal. + +Mr. DULLES. The Soviet being the first and the American being the +second? + +Mr. PAINE. That is correct. That being then the crux of the matter and +the reason this is the matter to be changed, if we were to follow the +logic of the discussion, many arguments seemed to approach at that kind +of a point where it is just logic or reason just didn't seem to work +or hold water in this case, and we were left then with the starkness of +his statement that this was an unforgivable moral sin, and he called +it a moral sin or I questioned him to that effect, and so he thought +it was a moral sin and he thought he was moral by adhering to that +doctrine. + +Representative FORD. Did he appear to enjoy these give and takes +between you and himself or did he resent them as you proceeded in your +discussions? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't think he resented them. I noticed at times he got +quite hot under the collar and I noticed that he was holding his, +staying on a steady keel even better than I was, as though he had had +considerable practice in sticking to, controlling himself, holding his +position and not getting ruffled. + +Representative FORD. But in this process over a period of time during +these four discussions he never deviated from his basic thesis? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. Of course, as I said to the others, I don't believe +whether you were here, we only had about four talks altogether, +and I later came to realize that if he were to have abandoned any +one of these or have abandoned that one in particular, that would +have undermined his whole philosophy, would humanly itself quite +unreasonable to expect a fundamental exchange within an evening, just +because of a logical compulsion or logical argument or something. + +Mr. DULLES. Did you get the impression that he felt both systems, the +American system and the Soviet system involved the exploitation of man +by man except it was a different exploiter? + +Mr. PAINE. I gathered--I was irked because it seemed to me the +difference that he accepted as a sufficient difference, the one in +the Soviet Union was impersonal, that he was not, in other words--he +admitted in the Soviet Union that the tax rate which was a general term +then for the amount of money or reward that is not returned of what a +man makes, was higher in the Soviet Union. He agreed that that could +be true, and didn't seem to be dismayed at that. So I did not find +criticism of the Soviet Union on that score. + +And in fact he didn't--I didn't discover in what ways he would like to +try to change the Soviet Union except he didn't like the restrictions +on his freedom there. Neither did he see there was any connection +between the restrictions on freedom there and the freedom we have here +without control of how the relationship between men would be governed. + +Mr. DULLES. Did he ever go into the question of the relative position +of labor in the United States from the point of view of its freedom of +bargaining and the control of labor in the Soviet Union? Did that ever +come up? + +Mr. PAINE. No. I think, I can't remember whether it was a conversation +I had directly with him or immediately after, I was following this +idea that here we feel we have quite a different attitude about +exploitation. Somebody--he felt exploited and he thought all the +working class was exploited, and he also thought they were brainwashed, +and he also thought that churches were all alike, all the religious +sects were the same and they were all apparatus of the power structure +to maintain itself in power. + +When I pointed out that our church was financed by people like myself, +when I contribute so many dollars to the church, he just shrugged his +shoulders. It didn't--his views still stood and it also permitted him, +I think, gave him the moral ground to dismiss my arguments because I +was here just a product of my environment and I didn't know better and +he had the word from the enlightenment, that he knew the truth and +therefore I was just spouting the line that was fed to me by the power +structure. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I think you mentioned before that he had wanted to put +you in a category, categorize you. Did he indicate to you during that +first conversation that he had concluded what category? + +Mr. PAINE. No; it was over several conversations, I suppose it was the +last conversation we had, he couldn't put me in a category and he named +about seven or eight categories. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What were they? + +Mr. PAINE. I wasn't a Bircher, I wasn't a liberal, a Communist, a +Socialist, probably something to do with religion, something like that, +atheist. + +Mr. DULLES. He didn't say whether you were a Republican or Democrat? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't believe he was concerned about that. + +(Laughter.) + +Mr. PAINE. No; I am sure he would see no distinction between the two +parties. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So he concluded that he was unable to categorize you? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. And I also felt as soon as he had realized that that he +could then dismiss me as not something that functions in this world, +not one of the forces or the opposing camps he has to contend with. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that your wife became bothered or Oswald +proved bothersome to your wife. Could you tell us in what way Oswald +was bothersome to Mrs. Paine? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, I think one of the most outstanding was in this +discussion of religions and I was trying to suggest that religions +did embody many of the values of many people and so the conversation +was trying to talk about those values quite apart from--I think the +Russian, I think Marina's view of religion is quite primitive--never +mind Marina. Ruth was bothered by his logic or argument being of no +avail. She would be content, you know if he had followed the laws of +debate or something, you present evidence and he presents opposite +evidence and you try to answer, let one answer the other. But when he +couldn't answer he would just state his belief and there he followed +the Communist line. + +He talked something about feudalism, or the church being more powerful +in feudalism than it was today and he tried to explain why that was. + +I had then suggested that maybe science was instrumental as an +alternative explanation to his explanation but instead of supporting +further his view, which just didn't make sense to me, he just restated +it. Well, this kind of thing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Upset your wife? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; you just couldn't enter the conversation deeper. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any other conversation, you and Oswald +had during this first evening that you met? + +The CHAIRMAN. From the first day, are you going back to? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. + +Mr. PAINE. I think we probably spoke, I was trying still to find common +ground with him, and I think we probably spoke critically of the far +right. It even seems to me we may have mentioned Walker. + +I had been bothered at the time that Walker had--I guess it doesn't do +any good to enter into the matter because I don't remember his response. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you mention Walker's name during the first meeting? + +Mr. PAINE. My memory is very foggy. But I would take it as--this was an +impression. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Give us your best recollection, and I want to ask you +again this was in early April 1963, that you had this conversation, is +that correct? + +Mr. PAINE. It was that first meeting when we had them over to dinner +and Ruth can give you the date of that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. For the benefit of the Commission the record indicates +it was about April 2, 1963, that that occurred. Tell us to the best of +your recollection what the conversation about General Walker was at +that time? + +Mr. PAINE. I think he had mentioned, a friend of ours had a German wife +and she just achieved her citizenship papers, and this had been done at +the ceremony and General Walker had been invited to lead the singing, +conducted by June Davis who is somewhat old and slipped into error +of calling him Judge Walker every once in a while, and it somewhat +offended this friend of ours who was aware of why she liked this +country, freedoms, and liberties and values that are expressed here. +And she was rather sorry that Walker should take it upon himself to +define, to these stupid foreigners or these ignorant foreigners, what +this country stands for. So I think I mentioned this episode to him. + +Representative FORD. Him being Oswald? + +Mr. PAINE. Oswald, and I think he smiled and nodded his assent. I don't +think he said any--I don't think he made any important remarks about +Walker. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything that he said about Walker at all? + +Mr. PAINE. I think that is the only time, probably the only time we +mentioned Walker. + +Mr. DULLES. To refresh my recollection, there was about 2 days or---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. 8 days before. + +Mr. RANKIN. It was on the 10th. + +Senator COOPER. Did he indicate in any way that he knew about General +Walker at that time? + +Mr. PAINE. We seemed to agree at least superficially that in thinking +the far right was unfortunate in its thoughts. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say anything or do anything that would lead you to +believe that he planned an attack on General Walker? + +Mr. PAINE. Absolutely not. + +Senator COOPER. Did he indicate in any way that he knew about General +Walker's activities and beliefs and position on public affairs? + +Mr. PAINE. When I went to the ACLU meeting he then got up, stood up and +reported what had happened at the meeting of the far right which had +occurred at convention hall the day before, U.N. Day, they called it +U.S. Day, and I think Walker had spoken then. + +From this I gathered that he was doing more or less the same thing--I +thought he was, I didn't inquire how he spent his free time but I +supposed he was going around to right wing groups being familiarizing +himself for whatever his purposes were as I was. + +Senator COOPER. Is that prior to the conversation you have talked about? + +Mr. PAINE. No; this is after this conversation. + +Senator COOPER. What? + +Mr. PAINE. This is after this conversation and I only had this, this +was the only concrete evidence I had of how he spent, might have spent +some of his time. It happened in the ACLU meeting in late October. I +suppose he was familiar with the right-wing groups and activities, and +movements. And certainly familiar with Walker; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Confining the Senator's question to the meeting in April, +he didn't indicate in any way that he was familiar with Walker's +attitude or activities? + +Mr. PAINE. He was familiar with Walker. He knew who Walker was, there +was no doubt about that. We were talking about Walker. + +Representative FORD. To find some common ground. + +Mr. DULLES. He didn't say he knew where Walker lived or anything of +that kind. That didn't come up? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate any understanding to you at that April +meeting of Walker's attitude? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't think he singled out Walker as--I had the impression +that he was quite familiar with Walker and probably familiar with +the names of various right-wing groups, shall we say, the Christian +Science, not the Christian Science, I have forgotten the names of +various organizations. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you relate to Oswald this story about Walker speaking +at the meeting or the ceremony at which the immigrants were given their +citizenship? + +Mr. PAINE. I believe I did; yes. I believe that is what I said about +Walker at the time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was his response to that? + +Mr. PAINE. And I think he didn't say much. I think he smiled and nodded +his head and did that kind of thing. He may have said just a few words. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you take it that Oswald agreed with the views that +you expressed? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; I did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after this first meeting---- + +Senator COOPER. May I interrupt you again, I don't want to interrupt +your train too much but I think you had said that during this +conversation that you did have some discussion about right-wing groups. + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Senator COOPER. And their position and activities, and so forth. In +that discussion were individuals named or members assumed to be members +of that group? + +(At this point Representative Ford left the hearing room.) + +Mr. PAINE. It is possible we would have mentioned Welch. I don't think +I would have mentioned Welch, I didn't know anything specifically about +the John Birch Society at the time. + +Senator COOPER. Was Walker, he was talking about Walker? + +Mr. PAINE. He was the only one whose name was mentioned. + +Senator COOPER. Are you sure whether or not Oswald made any comment at +any time during this conversation about Walker? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't remember, as I say, I remember it very vaguely but +I remember telling that instance of his conducting that ceremony. +But--and Walker was known, I knew that Walker was known to Lee. And at +least it achieved a certain feeling of similarity there, even though +the similarity was only superficial in our views and feelings about it. +I don't think he went on to describe any--it was mostly a ploy on my +part to curry him or make him feel more at ease. + +Mr. LIEBELER. It was clear to you at that time that both you and +Mr. Oswald had an adverse view of General Walker and did not think +favorably of him, is that correct? + +Mr. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Had you heard of Lee Oswald before you had occasion to go +and pick him up that time and bring him to your house for dinner? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; I heard about him as soon as Ruth had been invited to +this party back in February, whenever it was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was the basis of your wife's interest in the Oswalds +and of your interest in the Oswalds? + +Mr. PAINE. Everett Glover invited us knowing that Ruth was studying +Russian and that--asked us if we would be interested in meeting +this--they were presented to us as an American who had defected to +Russia and decided he didn't like it and came back and brought a +Russian wife with him. Would we like to meet these people? Yes, that +sounded interesting. + +Mr. DULLES. Was this the Fort Worth group? + +Mr. PAINE. No; this is in Dallas. + +Mr. DULLES. Dallas. + +Mr. LIEBELER. After this first meeting with Lee Oswald when was the +next time that you saw him? + +Mr. PAINE. That would be after he returned, when Marina was living with +us, when he returned, we thought he returned from looking for work from +Houston but apparently it had been his trip to Mexico. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us the circumstances of how you met him and what +happened at that time? + +Mr. DULLES. Could we have the date of this? + +Mr. LIEBELER. This would have been what, early October or late +September of 1963? + +Mr. PAINE. I think Marina was there about a week, at least a week +before he came, if she came the 24th of September, which comes to my +mind, it would be in the early part of October. I would normally appear +at the house on Fridays, sometimes occasionally on Sundays, I would +come on Friday evening, and---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. You were separated from your wife at this time? + +Mr. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you had your own apartment at Arlington, Tex.? + +Mr. PAINE. Grand Prairie. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Grand Prairie. + +Mr. PAINE. I don't particularly remember, the occasions don't stand out +one from another. The first two meetings, I think were before he found +work, and at first I talked a little bit about the problem of finding +work with him. + +Mr. DULLES. These were the first two meetings after the preliminary +meeting? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. While Marina was staying with us. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Go through your testimony, Mr. Paine and tell us as best +you can recall how many times you saw Oswald after his return from New +Orleans, up until the time of his assassination? + +Mr. PAINE. I think I saw him every weekend on Friday; I think he was +there except for the weekend, before the assassination, exceptional. + +I would arrive on Tuesday or Wednesdays and, of course, he was not +there and there was Ruth and Marina. I would simply come in on Sunday +when he was generally there. + +Also, I quite specifically remember on the long holiday he had some +period there, I don't remember, what celebration it is, when Bell did +not have that day off and he did, so he was there that morning, a +Monday morning on that date of that holiday, perhaps you can feed me +the date. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would that be November 8th, 9th and 10th, 1963? + +Mr. PAINE. I think that is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was that the last time you saw him? + +Mr. PAINE. That would be correct; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, tell us the circumstances about how Oswald arrived +in Irving upon his return from New Orleans as best you can recall it, +what happened, what was said. + +Mr. PAINE. I must not have been there when the phone call arrived but +I think Ruth reported it to me so that Ruth said that Marina was very +pleased, very happy to receive this call, a surprise or something. I +think I had at one or two times seen her answer a call from him, and +I observed she was glad to have this call from him but I wasn't there +when he first called, I don't believe. + +Mr. DULLES. Was that the call from New Orleans to Irving? + +Mr. PAINE. No; that is the call from somewhere in Dallas to Irving +asking if he could come out. I don't know of a call from New Orleans to +Irving. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he subsequently come out to the house in Irving that +weekend? + +Mr. PAINE. Then he came out that weekend. I suppose he came out on a +Friday and it was probably before I got over there, I arrived about six. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember if he was there when you arrived home +that weekend? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't remember that. I think he was there; yes. I think he +was there because otherwise I would have seen that meeting. I did not +see them first embrace each other. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say anything to you about where he had been? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I thought I knew where he had been. Ruth had told me he +was looking for work in Houston. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Ruth had told you that before this date? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There was no conversation among any one at that time +about Oswald having been in Mexico. + +Mr. PAINE. No; it was a complete surprise to Ruth and myself. When we +saw this letter where he mentioned having been to Mexico, Ruth took it +as an example of his colossal lying. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about this letter, what were the circumstances +surrounding that? + +Mr. PAINE. He had written a letter using her typewriter and her desk to +a party I don't know. + +Mr. DULLES. That is Ruth's typewriter and desk? + +Mr. PAINE. Ruth's typewriter and he left the rough draft of the letter +on her desk, not folded, just out there on her desk, in English. Ruth +had given me the impression it was there for a couple of days. Actually +it was there for a day and a half or so. I think he wrote it on +Saturday and we then moved the furniture on Sunday night. + +Mr. DULLES. This would be Saturday, November what? + +Mr. PAINE. This might be that holiday November. I don't remember for +sure about that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Paine, you and I discussed this question yesterday +and I asked you whether you recalled seeing Oswald again after you had +discussed this letter with your wife. What did you tell me? + +Mr. PAINE. I thought probably not but we figured out the dates from my +probable reaction that I read that letter and then had I encountered +him again I would have had a different, I would have had questions or +feelings or something in response to this letter and since I didn't +encounter him with those feelings I must not have seen him again. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So that would place the date of your seeing this letter +as approximately shortly after the weekend of November 8, 9, and 10? + +Mr. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I show you Commission Exhibit 103 and ask you if you +ever saw the original of this letter and if you did to tell us the +circumstances surrounding that event. + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; I saw this letter. I remembered most of the contents. +I apparently didn't remember that he didn't use his real name, I was +reading something else at the time and Ruth handed me this letter and +it took a while--I didn't read it as thoroughly as I could have. + +Mr. DULLES. Could you tell us just briefly the contents of this letter +just for the record? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, sir; apparently it is a draft of a letter that +Oswald wrote in his own hand. The Commission does have a copy of the +actual letter, and it was a letter to the Russian Embassy, I believe in +Washington. + +Mr. DULLES. The Russian Embassy in Washington? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, sir; in which he tells them about his trip to +Mexico and his political activity on behalf of the Fair Play for Cuba +Committee. I believe it includes the words "notorious FBI," which is no +longer interested in his political activity in Texas. + +Mr. DULLES. Was this letter ever sent? + +Mr. LIEBELER. I believe it was. + +Mr. DULLES. There was a letter sent like this? You said you had the +original? + +Mr. RANKIN. It is in evidence. + +Mr. DULLES. What was sent, a letter like this? + +Mr. RANKIN. A redraft. + +Mr. DULLES. A redraft. + +Mr. PAINE. Typewritten copy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This letter refers to the fact that Oswald had been in +Mexico, does it not? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; it tells of his visit to the Cuban Consul and the +Soviet Embassy there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife call that to your attention when she showed +you this letter? + +Mr. PAINE. We took it, she took it, and I likewise took it as somewhat +of a fabricated story, I didn't suppose he had been down to Mexico. I +read "Dear Sirs" there, I read "Dear Lisa." I thought he was writing to +a friend, and Ruth pointed out to me after I had given the letter back +to her, Ruth was somewhat irked that I didn't take more interest in the +thing. I think I might have--no, I don't know as I might have since I +might have dismissed it as a lie but anyway Ruth was irked and didn't +show it to me again and I asked her now what was in that letter that I +didn't see and she didn't tell me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This was all prior to the assassination? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did she say to you? + +Mr. PAINE. Ruth was quite bothered by that letter, and apparently +had--apparently I hadn't really taken it in. I said, "The heck with it. +Yes; it is a fantastic lie, isn't that amazing that he will fabricate +such stories here." + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did she say? + +Mr. PAINE. No; she said--she approached me and said, "I never realized +how much he could lie" or that he was a liar or something like that, +and "I want you to read this letter." So I put aside the thing I was +reading in which I was more interested and read most of the letter, not +the latter part about having used another name. + +And then I thought it was too personal, "Dear Lisa," so I thought he +was telling her, being rather braggadocio telling about his exploits +which were rather imaginary and I put it out of my mind. Then later +Ruth asked me what did I think about it---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. This was before the assassination that she asked you this? + +Mr. PAINE. I think so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was it later the same day? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I think it probably was another day but I don't +remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did she say? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, she was--I think I said, "Let me see that letter +again," and she said, "No; if you didn't absorb it, never mind." So, +heck, if she felt that way, I wasn't going to bother. My first impulse +was to throw it aside and pay no attention to it. If she felt that way +I continued to do it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who brought the letter up the second time, did Ruth bring +it up? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; Ruth brought it up. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether there was any event that caused +her to bring it up or did she bring it up out of the clear blue sky or +what? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't remember having slept with her but I have the +impression she brought it up while I was in bed anyway. So it might +have been, just be, I was staying late that night also, I don't know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that Oswald had given Marina a charm made +out of a Mexican peso at the time that you read this letter? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn about that at any time prior to the +assassination? + +Mr. PAINE. Not that I remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you note the fact that Oswald had a record of Mexican +music in your home prior to the assassination? + +Mr. PAINE. I didn't know that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you subsequently learn that Oswald had given Marina +this charm made from a Mexican peso? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; I did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Under what circumstances? + +Mr. PAINE. The FBI came out and they were wondering whether Oswald had +used my shop to mount his sight so we went out to look at the shop and +tools and we looked at the threading tap and what not, the threading +tap looked as though it hadn't been used but the drill press seemed to +have little chips of metal on it and then Ruth remembered that he had +gone in there and used the drill press to have drilled out this coin +which Marina put around her neck, and I think she then mentioned it was +a peso. But it hadn't sunk into Ruth with significance of its being a +peso, hadn't impressed itself upon her prior to the assassination. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So that neither you nor your wife believed that Oswald +had been in Mexico prior to the assassination? + +Mr. PAINE. You will have to ask Ruth about that. That was my impression +he hadn't been there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your wife hadn't said anything to you that indicated that +she believed it? + +Mr. PAINE. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you mentioned before the fact that you had gone with +Oswald to a meeting of the American Civil Liberties Union, is that +correct? + +Mr. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you do that? + +Mr. PAINE. That was the day after Stevenson had been stoned. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances of that event? + +Mr. PAINE. That was a Friday I had intended to go, I had also invited +Frank Krystinik for his first visit, I had been telling him about the +ACLU. So I invited Lee to come thinking it might be part--I was not +really talking to him very much, but just being civil but I thought it +might be helpful for him to see something in which I was interested, +that I might find some way that he might find an interest, something +constructive to do. + +So, I took him in my car, he and I alone, and on the way, which takes +about 35 minutes, described the ACLU to him, and he didn't know about +it, and described its purpose. Then we went to the meeting which was a +meeting, first we saw a movie called "Suspect," I think it was showing +how a candidate lost, who had won handily in a previous election, lost +after a smear campaign in Washington State, which it had been brought +out that his wife had once been a Communist Party member. + +I didn't think the movie showed very much, but the meeting, the +discussion following the movie, there were two people who gave little +talks about the movie and the principles involved afterward, this--do +you want to break? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who went with you in the car to the meeting, just you and +Mr. Oswald or was Mr. Krystinik with you? + +Mr. PAINE. No; Krystinik came in his own car, so just Lee and myself. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead with your story. + +Mr. PAINE. I thought the meeting was conducted in a manner that +illustrated its own beliefs. One of the things said was that the +Birchers must not be considered anti-Semitic, anti-Semites because they +are also Birchers. + +Lee at this point got up, speaking loud and clear and coherently, +saying that, reporting that, he had been to this meeting of the +right-wing group the night before or two nights before and he refuted +this statement, saying names and saying how that people on the platform +speaking for the Birch Society had said anti-Semitic things and also +anti-Catholic statements or spoke against the Pope or something. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what Oswald said? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I don't remember. He said something very similar to, +"I disagree with what had just been said," and I do remember that it +contained both some corroboration of his points of view. There had been +some kind of an anti-Semitic statement and criticism of the Pope. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald seemed to make a convincing argument and seemed to +make sense? + +Mr. PAINE. That was good speaking. It was out of keeping with the mood +of the meeting and nobody followed it up in a similar manner but I +think it was accepted as--it made sense; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody else say anything in response to Oswald's +remarks? + +Mr. PAINE. I think not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What happened then later on in the meeting? + +Mr. PAINE. Later on in the meeting, when the meeting broke up, people +clustered into discussion groups, and Frank, I told Frank, who was a +colleague at work, Frank Krystinik, about Lee and Marina, and so of +course he immediately came to defend free enterprise and what not in +opposition to this fellow I told him about, and I left the discussion +at that point, thinking I knew the kind of discussion it would be. + +It was a discussion between three people, a more elderly man whom I +probably thought was a member of the ACLU, and Frank and Lee. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any part of the discussion? + +Mr. PAINE. I didn't hear any part of the discussion. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you subsequently discuss it with either Oswald or +Krystinik? + +Mr. PAINE. And in the car going home, Lee asked me if I knew this man +he had been talking to, this older man he had been talking to, and I +think he said that the man seemed to be friendly to Cuba or rather he +said, "Do you think that man is a Communist?" And I said, "No." And +then he said something, "I think he is." Then I asked him why and I +think he said something in regard to Cuba or sympathy with Cuba, and +then I thought to myself, well, that is rather feeble evidence for +proving a Communist. + +But he seemed to have the attitude of, felt he wanted to meet that +man again and was pleased he had met him. I thought to myself if that +is the way he has to meet his Communists, he has not yet found the +Communist group in Dallas. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was there a Communist group in Dallas, to your knowledge? + +Mr. PAINE. Not to my knowledge. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever speak of a Communist group in Dallas? + +Mr. PAINE. No; he did not. I had the impression, this I remember +clearly that he had not found the group with similar feelings to his. +I then asked Frank in regard to, I can't remember when I asked Frank +but I asked Frank about the same conversation and whether he thought +that this third man was a Communist. And he thought no, he thought the +other man was a better--Frank almost got into a fight with Lee, and the +other man was more receptive or didn't argue with him, or drew him out +better, Frank used the word, I think. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Drew Oswald out better? + +Mr. PAINE. Drew Oswald out better. But he didn't gather the impression +that he was favoring Castro or Cuba. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What else did you and Oswald say on the way home after +the meeting? + +Mr. PAINE. So I was describing to him the purpose of the ACLU, and +he said specifically, I can remember this, after I had described it +and said that I was a member, that he couldn't join an organization +like that, it wasn't political and he said something or responded in +some manner, which indicated surprise that I could be concerned about +joining an organization simply to defend, whose purpose it is, shall we +say, to defend, free speech, free speech, per se, your freedom as well +as mine. + +He was aware of enjoying his freedom to speak but he didn't seem to be +aware of the more general principle of freedom to speak for everyone +which has value in itself. And I think it took him by surprise that a +person could be concerned about a value like that rather than political +objective of some sort, and this was, struck me as a new idea and it +struck me that he must never have met people who paid more than lip +service, he wasn't familiar with the ways of expressing this value. + +Mr. DULLES. Did you say anything to him about the activities of the +Civil Liberties Union in connection with the defense of people accused +of crimes under certain conditions? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; I am sure I told him that it came to the defense of all +people who didn't seem to be receiving adequate help when it seemed to +be an issue involving the Bill of Rights. I was then--that was a pang +of sorrow that occurred after the assassination when I realized that he +had then subsequently, a fortnight later, joined the ACLU, and still +didn't quite seem to perceive its purpose, and then I realized--I had +also perceived earlier that he was still a young fellow and I had been +expecting rather a lot of him, when I first approached meeting him; +this man had been to Russia and had been back and I had been--met some +others who had been around the world like that and they are powerful +people. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald impress you that way? + +Mr. PAINE. And he did not impress me that way; no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald respond to your, or did you request Oswald or +did you suggest to him that he join the ACLU? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I don't think I was eager to have him join until he knew +what was what about it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. During the time after the ACLU meeting did Oswald say +anything about his discussion with Mr. Krystinik? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I don't believe so. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you subsequently discuss that with Mr. Krystinik? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; I did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say and what did he say? + +Mr. PAINE. He told me how he had argued, that he had pointed out that +he had employed a few people himself, he works at Bell but on the side, +at night he had done a little extra business and had employed other +people, and had to receive from them more than he paid them, that he +received from their labor, for their product, more than he paid them +but that he created work and jobs, and he was fully--and he was ready +to defend his way of that activity and was presenting that against +Lee's criticism and apparently encountered the same kind of nonsequitur +response or no response from him or Lee's response didn't--Lee +presented his opposing view against it without any issue. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that Krystinik and Oswald had almost gotten +into a fight, did Krystinik tell you that? + +Mr. PAINE. I think it was Frank who told me that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us more about that? + +Mr. PAINE. I am sure Frank would not haul off and slug him, but just +Frank said he got pretty mad at this. I think Frank was using that +expression to me only, you know, saying how irked he was at Lee. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't indicate that Oswald had threatened any +physical violence toward him in connection with the argument, did he? + +Mr. PAINE. Oh, no; I think Lee knows how to keep his temper, knows how +to control himself. + +Senator COOPER. Might I ask a question at this time? Earlier you +talked about your, I think your, first meeting with Oswald and your +conversation with him? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Senator COOPER. You said, you talked about, the fact that subsequently +your wife was bothered by his attitude? + +Mr. PAINE. She was bothered by---- + +Senator COOPER. I am not going into that. + +Now, you have talked about this conversation with Mr. Krystinik? + +Mr. PAINE. Krystinik. + +Senator COOPER. In which they reached some point in which further +discussion was not, if not impossible, was at least difficult between +them? + +From these experiences you had was there a situation, that after some +arguments or discussion of economic or political issues, he would reach +a point in which he relied upon certain fixed positions that he held +about which he would not admit of any further discussion or argument? + +Mr. PAINE. That is correct. He would just present his dogmatic view and +then one was at loss to find any way to get off that impasse. + +Senator COOPER. When he was questioned about that view or when an +attempt was made to argue that view with him, would he then become +angry or disturbed in any way? + +Mr. PAINE. The time that I reported I was angry and I noticed he was +holding his temper pretty well and I wasn't going to let him hold his +temper better than mine. + +Senator COOPER. Did you see indication---- + +Mr. PAINE. I saw he was angry, his hands trembled a little bit. + +Senator COOPER. All right. + +Mr. PAINE. But he was dogged, I think he was practiced or skilled or +took pride in this was a kind of struggle or fight that he would do +this, and he would do it for a long time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Clench his fists and put them together? + +Mr. PAINE. No; it was expressing this as a mood. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He would hold himself back? + +Mr. PAINE. He would oppose himself to you steadily, and it seemed to me +he liked to put himself in a position of belligerence or opposition, +and he would just hold his ground or something, was accustomed to doing +that and expected to stick it out. It reminded me a little bit of +Lawrence of Arabia when Lawrence held the match that burned down to his +finger and the fellows asked him what is the trick? He said no trick +you just learn how to stand the pain. + +Senator COOPER. I have to go and I would like to ask a few questions. + +I ask these questions to get a certain background of his views which +you have said he finally came to some fixed position which he would +hold and would not move and there was no brooking of real argument on +that position. + +You said earlier in response to a question by counsel that he did not +believe there was any possibility of any evolutionary progress in this +country, at least upon this issue of economic change. + +Mr. PAINE. This he never said that specifically. But I would ask him +what policy should we take or I was trying to find if he didn't have +some avenue of following a policy in this country. + +Senator COOPER. Did you direct questions to him which showed some +evolution in our own economic ideas and theories which he either +refused to accept---- + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; I did. I mean I tried to show him how labor and +management, first labor had a right, I was criticizing labor for the +rigid position it is getting us into now---- + +Senator COOPER. He would not accept that idea of evolution? + +Mr. PAINE. I think he did not accept it; yes. + +He didn't have patience with it. + +Senator COOPER. Is that also a tenet of the Communist dogma, do you +know? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't believe, I don't know whether you can say there is +a single Communist dogma of that sort. I suppose there are some groups +that feel that way and others don't. + +Senator COOPER. Did he indicate any other way in which he thought that +economic change might come about in the United States? + +Mr. PAINE. He did not indicate or reveal to me how he thought it would +come about and I on several occasions felt by his, perceived from his +attitude or felt impelled by his attitude to say that the values that +I held dear were diminished in a situation of violence, to which he +remained silent and I took it as disagreement. But I don't remember if +he had said that. + +Senator COOPER. He remained silent when you spoke about that? + +Mr. PAINE. When I said I was opposed to violence or said, why, when I +said that he remained silent and I took it---- + +Senator COOPER. You took it that he disagreed in any way by your +statement? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, just by the way he would sort of withdraw. + +Senator COOPER. He did not agree with your position? + +Mr. PAINE. He did not agree; no. + +Senator COOPER. That violence was unacceptable as a means of change? + +Mr. PAINE. That is right, and I don't think he perceived also, was a +war of the kind of values that I am--tolerance, for instance seems to +me disappears when strained situations---- + +Senator COOPER. Did you discuss at least the kind of economic changes +that had occurred in Russia by means of violence? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I was trying to find out whether he thought it was going +to come by revolution or not and he never did say, I never got an +answer as to how he thought this change was going to come. He did not +reveal constructive, or from my point of view, constructive effort to +make. + +Senator COOPER. Did he ever discuss the revolution in Russia where by +means of violence the change had come about? + +Mr. PAINE. He did not. That would have been the kind of argument I +would have accepted, a normal kind that you would have accepted it as +evidence here is the normal way to produce it, but he never said that. + +Senator COOPER. Did he ever say any way in which he was expecting +Russia or any other country to indicate that he felt the use of +violence had produced good? + +Mr. PAINE. No. As I say he did not--I would have accepted that argument +as a debating argument but he didn't bring it up. + +Senator COOPER. That is all. + +Mr. DULLES. Did he say or did you get the impression that he felt that +violence was the only way to improve things, let's say, in the United +States? + +Mr. PAINE. I felt he was so disgusted with the whole system that he +didn't see a way that was worthwhile fussing around trying to modify +the situation. + +Mr. DULLES. Other than violence or he didn't go that far? + +Mr. PAINE. He didn't mention advocating violence or didn't say anything +in regard to violence but he did seem to me he didn't see dismissed as +trivial, no difference between the parties so why join one party or +another. They were all the same. + +Churches--there is no avenue out that way. Education--there is nothing +there. So that he never revealed to me any constructive way that wasn't +violent. + +Mr. DULLES. Did he think that communism was different from capitalism +in this respect? + +(Short recess.) + +The CHAIRMAN. All right, gentlemen, the Commission will be in order. + +Mr. DULLES. What I was getting at with my question was as to whether +he thought that probably violence was necessary with respect to both +systems to achieve the millennium that he sought or did he think it was +just necessary with regard to the American system. + +Mr. PAINE. He didn't reveal to me to my satisfaction what criticism he +found of the Soviet Union. He had indicated he didn't like it. But I +wasn't aware that he was proposing to change that system also in some +way. Neither did he ever speak, he never spoke to me, in a way that I +could see a paradise, see his paradise. He spoke only, he was opposed +to exploitation of man by man. That was his motivating power. + +(At this point Senator Cooper left the hearing room.) + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald indicate to you in any way that he had been +present at the right-wing rally that was held in Dallas the night +before Stevenson appeared in Dallas? + +Mr. PAINE. He indicated that at the ACLU meeting. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say he had met anybody there? + +Mr. PAINE. Not that I recall, no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention speaking to anyone at that meeting? + +Mr. PAINE. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you whether or not he was at the Stevenson +meeting itself? + +Mr. PAINE. I guess I didn't ask him that. I remember asking myself +subsequently what was the answer to that question and I couldn't answer +it then and I can't answer it now. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection of his mentioning it at all? + +Mr. PAINE. No, I don't remember what--I think I assumed that he had +but---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. You assumed that he had been at the Stevenson affair? + +Mr. PAINE. I think I assumed that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any basis for that assumption? + +Mr. PAINE. There had been some discussion in the ACLU, some other +people had gotten up and had spoken of that awful last night, I guess, +this was the previous night, that awful time and I think he seemed to +nod his assent. That was my---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. You inferred from that that he had possibly been present +at the Stevenson meeting? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. There was no other basis for your assumption in that +regard? + +Mr. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. On the weekend of November 8, 9, and 10, do you recall +when you came to your house in Irving? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, I would come out regularly on Friday after cashing my +check at the bank. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember coming on Friday evening on the 8th of +November? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't remember any break in that habit. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall whether or not Oswald was present at your +home on the Friday evening November 8, 1963? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I don't specifically remember that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember one way or the other? + +Mr. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you at the house on Saturday? November 9th? + +Mr. PAINE. I was at the house probably on Saturday and certainly on +Sunday. I think that weekend I remember stepping over him as he sat +in front of the TV, stepping past, one of these things laying on +the floor and thinking to myself for a person who has a business to +do he certainly can waste the time. By business I mean some kind of +activity and keeping track of right-wing causes and left-wing causes or +something. I supposed that he spent his time as I would be inclined to +spend more of my time if I had it, trying to sense the pulse of various +groups in the Dallas area. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what Oswald did on Saturday morning, November +9, 1963? + +Mr. PAINE. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that he was taken by your wife to apply for +a driver's license and take a driver's license test on that morning? + +Mr. PAINE. She told me sometime subsequently that she had taken him +for--wait. I remember the incident that he had arrived on a Saturday +morning at the drivers' license bureau, stood in line for a long time +but they cut off the line at 12 o'clock and he did not stay there long +enough for him to get his driver's license student permit. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was this at this time or would that have been another +time. Let me help you. + +Mr. PAINE. I don't remember that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would it help to refresh your recollection if I suggested +that November 9th was a local election day in Dallas, I believe? + +Mr. PAINE. I think that is an election that I have forgotten. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You have no knowledge of Oswald's activities on that day, +no direct personal knowledge? + +Mr. PAINE. It doesn't, it didn't cue me in, so I don't---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Oswald drive a car? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I did not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with him driving an automobile or +obtaining a driver's license? + +Mr. PAINE. I probably said it would be well to get a driver's license. +It would be well--I probably said, "You probably need a car to get +around here." In other words, effectively; no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate to you that he planned to purchase +an automobile? + +Mr. PAINE. I bought this second-hand car for $200. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of a car is that? + +Mr. PAINE. That is a 1956 Oldsmobile. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you buy it? + +Mr. PAINE. I bought it while they were there, while Marina was staying +with us, which was sometime in November. Either October or November, +probably the early part of November. They went out to admire the car. +$200, I suppose, didn't seem out of their reach then. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you that he was thinking---- + +Mr. PAINE. Therefore, I think Ruth, they went out to admire the car +and, of course, I was thinking that it, this might make it appear to +them that the car was within reach, and driving was something to be +sought. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In addition to the Oldsmobile that you mentioned, you +personally own a Citroen automobile and your wife owns a station wagon, +is that correct? + +Mr. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw Oswald drive any of those cars at any time? + +Mr. PAINE. That is correct. I had keys to both of my cars so he could +not have driven them without---- + +Mr. LIEBELER. Without your knowledge? + +Mr. PAINE. Or else somehow getting another. He would have to--you can, +I have driven my car when I have broken the key. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But you never saw him drive it? + +Mr. PAINE. I never saw him drive it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife ever tell you that she had seen Oswald +driving a car or she was trying to teach him how to drive a car? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes; she did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she indicate what proficiency he had at operating an +automobile? + +Mr. PAINE. She thought he was, she observed how much one has to learn +in order to drive a car. He had a difficulty in some manner, perhaps +it was in judging when to turn the wheel when parking. And I think she +said he over controlled it, turned too far. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Looking back now on all your conversations with Oswald, +after his return from New Orleans, did you have any discussions with +him other than the ones you have already mentioned in your previous +testimony? + +Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question before you answer this question. +About the car, did you get any idea as to why he didn't want to drive a +car or to have a car, did he think this would make him a capitalist or +anything of that kind? Did anything come up in the conversations with +regard to his not having a car or not driving a car? + +Mr. PAINE. No. I gathered that was slightly embarrassing not to be able +to drive a car. + +Mr. DULLES. All right. Thank you. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you recall any conversations that you had with +Oswald that you think would be helpful for us to know other than the +ones you have already mentioned? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't recall one now. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate to you any specific hostility toward +President Kennedy? + +Mr. PAINE. I think at this ACLU meeting he mentioned this specifically +that he thought Kennedy had done a good job in civil rights. That was +it--generally my impression was that he liked--he didn't like anybody, +but he disliked Kennedy least as you might go right from Kennedy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your recollection, was that the only time +he mentioned President Kennedy specifically? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention Governor Connally? + +Mr. PAINE. Not to my knowledge. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate any hostility toward the United +States other than the hostility that you have previously testified to +after his return from the Soviet Union and his general dislikes of the +American system? + +Mr. PAINE. That is right. Just his general dislike. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate to you a desire to return to the +Soviet Union? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I think when I learned, I don't know when it was that he +had planned to go back there that it was a surprise to me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you learn that he planned to go back there? + +Mr. PAINE. That was probably subsequent; yes, that was certainly +subsequent to November 22. + +Mr. DULLES. Or to go to Cuba? + +Mr. PAINE. Or to go to Cuba, yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When that was spoken---- + +Mr. PAINE. I remember now, first it was mentioned could he be connected +with a Communist plot and there I thought of Russian Communists and +that didn't seem to ring a bell. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When was that mentioned? + +Mr. PAINE. This was after the assassination, a day or two later. Then +when the Fair Play for Cuba Committee was mentioned, that was the first +I had heard of it except for his mentioning Cuba to this man at the +ACLU meeting referring to it in the car to me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. He never told you that he had been active in the Fair +Play for Cuba Committee? + +Mr. PAINE. That is correct, that was the only recollection I could +remember his ever having mentioned Cuba. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now yesterday, we asked you about an incident or spoke to +you about an incident that happened in September of 1963 when you went +into your garage to use some tools, your garage in Irving, Tex. Would +you tell us about that? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't remember whether the date was September. I remember +that was the date they came back from New Orleans and I do remember +that my wife asked me to unpack some of their heavy things from their +car. I only recall unpacking duffelbags but any other package, that was +the heaviest thing there and they were easy also. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You must have moved the duffelbags from the station wagon +into the garage? + +Mr. PAINE. That is right. I unpacked whatever was remaining in the +station wagon to the garage. + +So sometime later, I do remember moving about this package which, let's +say, was a rifle, anyway it was a package wrapped in a blanket. The +garage was kind of crowded and I did have my tools in there and I had +to move this package several times in order to make space to work, +and the final time I put it on the floor underneath the saw where the +handsaw would be casting dust on it and I was a little embarrassed to +be putting his goods on the floor, but I didn't suppose, the first time +I picked it up I thought it was camping equipment. I said to myself +they don't make camping equipment of iron pipes any more. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Why did you say that to yourself when you picked up the +package? + +Mr. PAINE. I had, my experience had been, my earliest camping equipment +had been a tent of iron pipes. This somehow reminded me of that. I felt +a pipe with my right hand and it was iron, that is to say it was not +aluminum. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How did you make that distinction? + +Mr. PAINE. By the weight of it, and by the, I suppose the moment of +inertia, you could have an aluminum tube with a total weight massed in +the center somehow but that would not have had the inertia this way. + +Mr. DULLES. You were just feeling this through the blanket though? + +Mr. PAINE. I was also aware as I was moving his goods around, of his +rights to privacy. So I did not feel--I had to move this object, I +wasn't thinking very much about it but it happens that I did think a +little bit about it or before I get on to the working with my tools I +thought, an image came to mind. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think there was more than one tent pole in the +package or just one tent pole? + +Mr. PAINE. As I say, I moved it several times, and I think I thought +progressively each time. I moved it twice. It had three occasions. And +the first one was an iron, thought of an iron pipe and then I have +drawn, I drew yesterday, a picture of the thing I had in mind. Then in +order to fill out the package I had to add another object to it and +there I added again I was thinking of camping equipment, and I added a +folding shovel such as I had seen in the Army, a little spade where the +blade folds back over the handle. This has the trouble that this blade +was too symmetrical I disposed to the handle and to fit the package +the blade had to be off center, eccentric to the handle. Also, I had +my vision of the pipe. It had an iron pipe about 30 inches long with +a short section of pipe going off 45 degrees. No words here, it just +happened that I did have this image in my mind of trying to fill up +that package in the back burner of my mind. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The witness yesterday did draw a picture of what he +visualized as being in the blanket, and I will offer it in evidence +later on in the hearing. + +How long was this package in your estimation? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, yesterday we measured the distance that I indicated +with my hand, I think it came to 37 inches. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately how thick would you say it was? + +Mr. PAINE. I picked it up each time and I put it in a position and then +I would recover it from that position, so each time I moved it with the +same position with my hands in the same position. My right hand, the +thumb and forefinger could go around the pipe, and my left hand grabbed +something which was an inch and a half inside the blanket or something +thick. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did it occur to you at that time that there was a rifle +in the package? + +Mr. PAINE. That did not occur to me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You never at any time looked inside the package? + +Mr. PAINE. That is correct. I could easily have felt the package but I +was aware that of respecting his privacy of his possessions. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Were you subsequently advised of the probability or the +possibility that there had been a rifle wrapped in that package? + +Mr. PAINE. When I arrived on Friday afternoon we went into the garage, +I think Ruth, Marina and the policeman, and I am not sure it was the +first time, but there we saw this blanket was on the floor below the +bandsaw---- + +(At this point Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) + +Mr. PAINE. And a rifle was mentioned and then it rang a bell, the +rifle answered, fitted the package that I had been trying to fit these +unsuccessfully. It had never resolved itself, this shovel and pipe +didn't fit in there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And it seemed to you likely that there had in fact been a +rifle in the package? + +Mr. PAINE. That answered it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us when the last time was that you saw that +package in the garage prior to the assassination? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I am afraid I can't. + +Mr. DULLES. Do we have the date of the first time in the record? + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I think the witness testified it was either late +September or early October of 1963. + +I show you a blanket which has been marked as Commission Exhibit 140 +and ask you if that is the blanket you saw in the garage? + +Mr. PAINE. This looks a little cleaner, of course. I was there in the +night, and I also put the thing on the floor thinking it was rustic +equipment and that sawdust wouldn't hurt it. + +I also was concerned with moisture. This is very close to what I +remember. Yesterday in my testimony I had a desire to add blue to the +colors of brown and green. Last night I remembered that Thanksgiving +weekend I had bought another rustic blanket of a similar nature which +had blue in it, which is why I tried to get blue into the blanket. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you able to say at this time positively that this was +the blanket that you saw in your garage and that you moved on various +occasions in October and possibly November of 1963? + +Mr. PAINE. I didn't notice the particular design so I can't--it is a +very good representative of what I remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the texture of the blanket? + +Mr. PAINE. The texture. I felt it, of course, these several times and +the texture is the same. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was the package wrapped securely when it was in your +garage? + +Mr. PAINE. I had the impression--yes, it was. The whole package was +stiff. There was no shaking of the parts, and I had the impression it +was wrapped with about two strings. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I now show you Commission Exhibit 139, which is a rifle +that was found in the Texas School Book Depository Building, and ask +you if you at any time ever saw this rifle prior to November 22, 1963? + +Mr. PAINE. I did not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you seen it since that time and prior to yesterday? + +Mr. PAINE. I saw a rifle being shown to Marina in an adjoining cubicle +with a glass wall between us. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When was that? + +Mr. PAINE. That was the night of the 22d. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen this leather strap that is attached to +the rifle. + +Mr. PAINE. I have not seen that strap. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen a strap like this strap? + +Mr. PAINE. Or anything like it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you any idea where this strap could have come from? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't. + +Mr. DULLES. May I ask in that connection, was this just loosely wound +up in that blanket or was there some string around it or---- + +Mr. PAINE. I had the impression there were about two strings on the +thing. It wouldn't--also, I didn't think you could look into the +package readily. + +Mr. DULLES. You would have to take something off, some string or +something in order to get into the package? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I now show you Commission Exhibit 364 which is a replica +of a sack which was prepared by authorities in Dallas, and I also show +you another sack which is Commission Exhibit 142, and ask you if you +have ever seen in or around your garage in Irving, Tex., any sacks +similar to those? + +Mr. PAINE. No; I haven't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you seen any paper in your garage in Irving prior to +November 22, 1963, or at any other place, at your home in Irving, Tex., +that is similar to the paper of which those sacks are made? + +Mr. PAINE. No, I haven't; we have some rugs, most of them are wrapped +in polyethylene. I couldn't be sure that one of the smaller ones wasn't +wrapped in paper. To my knowledge, we had no free kraft paper of that +size. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Will you examine the tape on the sacks and tell me +whether you have any tape similar to that or whether you have seen any +tape similar to that in your garage before November 22, 1963? + +Mr. PAINE. We have some tape in a drawer of my desk at the house, my +recollection is that the tape is a 2-inch tape, gum tape. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And the tape on the sack appears to be three? + +Mr. PAINE. This is 3-inch. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever observe in your garage any scraps of paper +or scraps of tape similar to the materials used to construct those +sacks? + +Mr. PAINE. No, I did not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Either before November 22, 1963, or afterwards? + +Mr. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When you moved the sacks, the blanket, the package that +was wrapped in the blanket in your garage, were you able to determine +whether or not the object inside the sack was also wrapped in paper? + +Mr. PAINE. I would have said that it was not. When we practiced +wrapping that rifle yesterday I would have guessed that any paper +around the barrel in there, which I could feel with some clarity, would +have crinkled. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And to your recollection there was no crinkling in the +package wrapped with the blanket? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. It was a very quiet package. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Yesterday we did try to and did wrap the rifle previously +referred to in our testimony in the blanket which you have just +examined. Would you tell the Commission about that? + +Mr. PAINE. I tried wrapping it to the shape and size and bulk that I +remembered the package. I had a little difficulty, it got quite close +to the right shape by wrapping it at an angle. The rifle was laid in +the blanket somewhat on a bias to the rectangle blanket form. Then +there was a small end of the barrel, I didn't discover how you could +fold that over to tie it with string without making it bulkier than I +remember. But the package came quite close to what I remembered. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now on the basis of wrapping that rifle in the blanket, +would you say that it was probable, that the package that was in your +garage was in fact that rifle wrapped in that blanket? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes, I think it was or a rifle of that size. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You said just a moment ago that you saw the rifle we +have had here this morning or a similar rifle shown to Marina Oswald +sometime shortly after the assassination. Would you tell us the +circumstances surrounding that event? + +Mr. PAINE. We went to the police station that evening, and probably +about 9 o'clock, I saw the rifle being shown to Marina. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This was at the Dallas police station? + +Mr. PAINE. Dallas police station. Ruth was present, and Mamantov was +present. + +Representative FORD. Who was the last one? + +Mr. PAINE. Ilya Mamantov, I think Ilya is the first name, but Mr. +Mamantov. He teaches parttime, parttime teaching in Russian, was +familiar to Ruth as the son-in-law of her tutor. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any of the conversation that was going on in +the room in which Marina was being shown this rifle? + +Mr. PAINE. No, no. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not your wife heard them? + +Mr. PAINE. My wife, of course, was right there. And heard the whole +thing. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she subsequently tell you what occurred? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes, she did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you? + +Mr. PAINE. She told me that Marina wasn't able to identify that rifle +as the one that Lee had. She knew that Lee had a rifle, and I think +she knew it was wrapped in a package like this. I think Ruth reported +that she had, Marina had, opened up a corner of the blanket and looked +in and seen part of the butt, and hadn't liked the idea of rifles, the +rifles made her a little uncomfortable and hadn't looked at it further. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This was at the time the rifle was presumably wrapped in +the blanket in your garage, correct? + +Mr. PAINE. I assumed that. I didn't ask that question. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife tell you anything more about what happened +at that time? + +Mr. PAINE. You will have to jog my memory if you have any specific +questions. I don't recall. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That is the best of your recollection now that you have +given us? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. How much would you say that the package that you saw in +your garage weighed? + +Mr. PAINE. I reported earlier to the FBI 7 or 8 pounds. I never at the +time thought of the weight of it as I was moving it around. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In your previous discussions or conversations with the +FBI did you ever tell them in word or substance that if there had been +a rifle in the package that was located in your garage that you did not +think it could have a telescopic sight mounted on it? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't recall having said that. I don't believe I would +have known that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall any discussions of that sort with the FBI +at all. Did they ask you about that? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes, I think they asked me coming out to find out when and +where and how the sight may have been put on but I never felt the +package in the center. I always grabbed it at these two ends. + +Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your recollection you never told the FBI +that you didn't think the package contained a rifle with a telescopic +sight? + +Mr. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever observe or hear prior to the assassination +that Lee Oswald had been practicing with a rifle? + +Mr. PAINE. No, I didn't know prior to the assassination, we didn't know +he had a rifle. I had supposed from my conversation with him back on +Neely Street that he would like to have a rifle but I didn't gather +that he did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Aside from whether or not you knew that he had a rifle, +did you ever hear or observe him practicing with a rifle? + +Mr. PAINE. No, I did not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with the Sport's Drome Rifle Range in +Grand Prairie, Tex? + +Mr. PAINE. I think I know about where it is. No, I don't even know +where it is. I know the race track is there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever been there? + +Mr. PAINE. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that Oswald received mail at your house from +Irving, Tex? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what kind of mail he received? + +Mr. PAINE. I suppose he used it as the mailing address for most of his +mail until he would receive, get a permanent address, so he received +the Daily Worker there, or The Worker, and also, I didn't see it come, +I don't generally see the mail that arrives there. Most of my mail +would arrive at that address even though I was living somewhere else +because I also didn't feel permanent in my other addresses, so Ruth +would collect the mail and separated mine into a separate pile. I +didn't see the Militant arrive. I did see various Russian magazines, +Agitateur, maybe a very large one. A very large one and the Daily +Worker, The Worker. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss these publications with Oswald? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes, we talked with regard to the Daily Worker. He said +that, he told me, that you could tell what they wanted you to do, they, +a word I dislike, what they wanted you to do by reading between the +lines, reading the thing and doing a little reading between the lines. +He then gave me an issue to look and see. I wanted to see if I could +read between the lines and see what they wanted you to do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you read the particular issue that he referred to? + +Mr. PAINE. I tried to. I don't think I had very much patience to go +through it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what particular issue it was? + +Mr. PAINE. No, I didn't notice. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you set the date of this discussion that you had with +Oswald? + +Mr. PAINE. That was fairly soon after his coming back. So let's say the +middle of October. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he discuss with you, your ability or inability to +determine what they wanted you to do by reading between the lines after +you had read the publication? + +Mr. PAINE. No, I just handed it back to him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anything else said between you at that time on +that subject? + +Mr. PAINE. He asked me how did I like it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say? + +Mr. PAINE. And I tried to be polite. I said it was awful extreme, I +thought. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he respond to that? + +Mr. PAINE. I think that was the end of it. + +Mr. DULLES. Do I understand that this was, this Daily Worker was, +mailed---- + +Mr. PAINE. To 515. + +Mr. DULLES. To your address in Irving? + +Mr. PAINE. That is right. Or Ruth's address. + +Mr. DULLES. It wasn't readdressed but it was directly sent? + +Mr. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. DULLES. He gave your address for The Worker to come to? + +Mr. PAINE. That is right. + +Representative FORD. What prompted him to hand you The Worker? Was +there any preface to the actual handing of it to you? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. I think I was asking him, I would like to, I wanted to +see some literature or what he liked to read or something like that. I +think it was as a response to some question or inquiry of mine. + +Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether this was addressed to him in care of +you or Ruth Paine or was it just sent at the Paine address? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't remember for certain. I would think it would have +just been Oswald at that address but I don't remember. It may have +been. There were enough of those packages but I just don't remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you draw any inference at the time as a result of +this conversation with Oswald about his statement that you could tell +what they wanted you to do by reading between the lines? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, it made me realize that he would like to be active +in some kind of--activist. It made me also feel that he wasn't very +well connected with a group or he wouldn't have such a tenuous way of +communication, and I thought it was rather childish to someone like +Dick Tracy, attract a child to Dick Tracy, to think that that was his +bona fide way of being communicated or being a member of this Communist +cause or something. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any other discussions with him about +literature that he received? + +Mr. PAINE. I didn't know. Other literature, I was somewhat interested +in what the Russian publications were saying but I didn't take it up +with him. I wanted Ruth to translate those. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever observe any Cuban literature? + +Mr. PAINE. No, I didn't. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know that he ever received any such +literature? + +Mr. PAINE. No, I never, until after the assassination, I had never +thought of Cuba either in connection with Oswald or in connection with +the Communists or the Communist Party. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I show you Commission Exhibit 128 which is ENCO Map of +the Dallas-Fort Worth area, and ask you if you recognize that map. + +Mr. PAINE. This is the kind of map that I always used, stopping in +stations when I am out of one so I always have one in my car, and when +the FBI showed me this particular map, which I trust is the same one I +looked at before. I found on the back side a mark where it shows the +whole map of the whole area, the Dallas-Fort Worth area, a little mark +where our house is, that is the kind of mark that I would make when I +was trying to buy some land earlier and had in mind for a long time and +I wanted to find the location that was accessible to the places I would +then want to go. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us---- + +Mr. PAINE. This mark is still here. + +Representative FORD. This is the mark or can you identify that mark +that you placed on this map? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes, I think I see a mark here of the sort which looks +reasonable to me. I think it is the only mark on this side of the map. + +Generally, I didn't make marks on the other side of the map. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In your statement referring to one side of the map +you were referring to the side that shows a map of the entire Fort +Worth-Dallas area, is that correct? + +Mr. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you say as best you can see there is only one mark on +this side of the map? + +Mr. PAINE. That is the only one that is here, that I remember having +found. I don't remember finding another one. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember putting that mark on the map? + +Mr. PAINE. I remember putting--I think I put this kind of mark on more +than one map. That is our house. It then helps locate it with regard to +all the arteries and what not that lead to various places. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You do think then it is probable that you did place the +mark on the map that indicates the location of your house in Irving, +Tex.; is that correct? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes, I think that is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not Oswald ever came into +possession of this map? + +Mr. PAINE. And Ruth gave Oswald a map to--she told me she gave him a +map, and this is the kind we have around the house, the best one she +could get in the service station, to help him find a job, or help him +when he was searching for a job. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any other conversations with your wife +about the map before the assassination? + +Mr. PAINE. No, I don't believe she told me she had given him the map. I +don't believe we discussed it at all. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you open the map to the portion that shows the area +of Dallas. I call your attention to a mark at the intersection of Boll +Street and San Jacinto, and ask you if you have any recollection of +placing that mark on the map? + +Mr. PAINE. No, I don't have any recollection of placing that mark on +the map. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any circumstances that might make it +likely that you placed that mark on the map? + +Mr. PAINE. I could have placed that mark on the map when I was looking +for properties. I went down to the courthouse to get plats of the areas +that I was thinking of buying, and they had a copy of the plat, and so +they sent it out late on Saturday, short of 12 o'clock, and just short +of closing, and it was a reproduction company at that address or near +that address. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the L. L. Ridgway Co.? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. That is the company that I am referring to. I don't +know exactly. + +Mr. LIEBELER. But it is near the intersection we have just referred to? + +Mr. PAINE. I will take your word for that. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know that it is? + +Mr. PAINE. No, I don't know. I think the FBI man said it was. I hadn't +looked into it and didn't check it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You haven't any knowledge at this point whether the +Ridgway company is in this intersection or not? + +Mr. PAINE. I remember it is right beside the expressway and in about +that area. I don't remember the names of the roads. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think it is probable or improbable that you placed +the mark on the map, the one we have just been talking about, at Boll +and San Jacinto Streets? + +Mr. PAINE. I remember in asking the clerk where it was, and I had a map +of this sort, that was also in August when I was looking for places. I +would have guessed I would not. I would have been able to see where it +was and know in my mind where I wanted to go. + +Mr. DULLES. Is that the same kind of a mark or a different kind of mark +that is on the other side of the map to which we have just referred, +the area map? + +Mr. PAINE. It is a different mark. That mark that is on the other side +of the map to which we have just referred, the area map, was our house. +So I made a little square that I can see and indicate a house rather +than--generally I don't make marks on maps. I look up where I want to +go and I go. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife tell you when she had given this map to +Oswald? + +Mr. PAINE. I suppose she gave it very soon after he came back and +started looking for work. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you said it was August of 1963 when you were looking +to find this reproduction place; is that correct? + +Mr. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I call your attention to a mark on Hillcrest and Asbury, +and I ask you if you put that mark on the map? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't recall making that mark. I think it is different +from the other mark, and it is--if I were to make a mark that is more +the way I would make a mark. It also happens to be the cafeteria where +I like to eat, where you can get all you want for a dollar there, and +it is a very good meal. So I would be interested in that, in locating +it. Here is one of the places where I was thinking of buying property. + +Mr. DULLES. Is there a mark there at that place where you were +interested in buying property? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't think there is. I almost guessed that I didn't +have that map at that time. Also I was not living--I would guess for +a further reason that I would not have this map on the time of that +August date was because I hadn't been living--I had been living in this +apartment, and I had a map over there, and I probably didn't have the +same map that Ruth had around her house. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So you think it is probably likely you didn't place any +marks on that map other than the one indicating your home? + +Mr. PAINE. That is correct. In other words, I think that mark was +placed there quite a long time back, because I have been interested in +this locating of property for several years. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is the mark at the Hillcrest Avenue spot, a mark of the +type that you usually make? + +Mr. PAINE. And, as I say, I don't usually make a mark, but I think I +might more likely have made that kind of mark, more than some of the +others--somebody else has put marks here with a ball-point pen which +are not the kind I would make. + +Mr. LIEBELER. In reviewing this map with the FBI, were there any other +marks on the map that it was developed that you possibly put on the map +other than the ones we have discussed? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't now remember any others. This one of the cafeteria +there is not exactly at the right spot. + +Mr. LIEBELER. The mark at Hillcrest Avenue? + +Mr. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As you look at the map now do you see any other marks +which you think you might have put on the map? + +Mr. PAINE. No. We went over it at mealtime in considerable detail, he +having located most of the marks he could find on the map--no, I guess +it was still marked up like this. We didn't find anything that I can +remember there that I might have put on there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, on the basis of your knowledge of Oswald and your +meeting with him, and your familiarity with him prior to the time of +the assassination, did you form an opinion about him as to whether or +not he would be likely to commit an act such as this, or whether he +would be likely to take the life of any human being? + +Mr. PAINE. It was a question we had to consider when we considered +having Marina at our house. So Ruth and I discussed that, whether he +was a dangerous person, and he didn't seem to be dangerous. Of course, +I also felt that I wasn't a particular opponent or foe of his. Helping +his family we were quite free and would let him, roughly, think of our +arguments. I talked about getting angry, but, for the most part, it was +a cordial relationship, so I didn't sense--he didn't display hostility +to me or to Ruth, and he was nice with the children, and while they +were living with us, he was nice to Marina also. He was during this +time when he returned from Mexico, he was quite a reasonable person. He +was only unreasonable the first time I had met him. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you have this discussion with your wife +concerning whether or not you should let Marina live with you? Was that +before they came back from New Orleans? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes, it was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you concluded at that time there was no reason why +Marina should not come there; is that right? + +Mr. PAINE. That is right. Of course, Ruth went in and sounded them out +rather cautiously and reported to me also his facial expressions and +what-not when she was suggesting this, and he seemed to be glad of that +rather than worried. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after Marina came and lived at your house, Oswald +was there during parts of the months October and November. Did you +change your opinion in this respect or was it reinforced, on the basis +of his activities and your observation of him during that period? + +Mr. PAINE. It was reinforced. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You did not think him to be a violent person or one who +would be likely to commit an act such as assassinating the President? + +Mr. PAINE. I didn't--I saw he was a bitter person, he was bitter and +quite a lot of very negative views of people in the world around him, +very little charity in his view toward anybody, but I thought he was +harmless. + +Representative FORD. Was this a different reaction from the one you had +had at your first meeting or your first acquaintance? + +Mr. PAINE. When we first became acquainted I was somewhat shocked, +especially that he would speak so harshly to his wife in front of a +complete stranger, and it was at that point, or at that time, that +I was persuaded I would like to free Marina from her bondage and +servitude to this man. He seemed to me he was keeping her, not helping +her to learn the language, keeping her vassal to him, and this offended +me, so at that point I became interested in helping her escape from +him. Of course, I was not going to try to force that. I didn't want to +be separating a family that could get along. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This bitterness that you detected following his return +from Mexico, was that a new reaction? + +Mr. PAINE. No. That bitterness had existed all along. He also had been +disagreeable to his wife, cruel to her. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I see. + +Mr. PAINE. Not allowing her any personality, a mind of her own, and +making sharp jibes at her. + +Mr. DULLES. And that continued awhile? + +Mr. PAINE. That only existed that first night in March or April. + +Mr. DULLES. It did not continue when Marina was at your house in Irving? + +Mr. PAINE. When Marina came to our house she gained in health and +weight. She started to look better and it looked to me as if the strain +was off the family relationship. They were not quarreling. They billed +and cooed. She sat on his lap and he said sweet nothings in her ear. + +Mr. DULLES. Did you get any information from any source with regard to +the situation while they were living in New Orleans that she wanted to +get away from him? + +Mr. PAINE. Oh, yes; well, Ruth had told me when she came back from +delivering Marina to New Orleans, she had gone down there expecting +to spend a week, seeing New Orleans, and it was a pretty long trip, +and found the household, she reported to me, so uncomfortable living +there. They were fighting, I mean, so difficult. She wanted to leave +right away, and she left in a few days, left a lot sooner than she had +expected to leave. + +Mr. DULLES. Then your wife took her back, as you recall? + +Mr. PAINE. Then, my wife came home, and then she went back to Naushon, +Mass., for a couple of months in the summer, and on her way back to +Texas stopped in New Orleans, found him out of work, and invited Marina +to come back with her right then. + +Mr. DULLES. What did she learn at that time about Oswald? What did she +learn about Lee Oswald's treatment of Marina, anything new or different +at the time she stopped by New Orleans, and then went back? + +Mr. PAINE. She, perhaps, saw he loved her because she said that the +parting, he genuinely seemed so happy to have Ruth take her back. In +other words, he seemed to be exhibiting some concern for Marina, who +was with child, and the child would be adequately taken care of, and +sorry--it was a cheerful parting or something. She saw human qualities +in him at that time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say after Marina returned to your home in Irving, +and after Oswald came back to Dallas that their relationship improved +even more, and Oswald seemed to be under less strain than he had been +prior to that time; is that correct? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, I don't--I only know two times, at the time in April +when they came to dinner with us, and he was rough, crude, uncivil to +her, and Ruth's report of how they were while she was trying to live in +this house in New Orleans, when she just moved in. + +She also reported to me, and she will tell you this though that +apparently Lee had wanted to make her happy in this house, had liked +the house, said it was in the old famous quarter of New Orleans, +and Ruth could see that Marina was unhappy. She thought it was +uncomfortable in this darkness, and Ruth thought it was a tragedy. Both +points of view were valid depending on which way you looked at it, so +she saw that Lee apparently had wanted to make her happy, wanted her to +like the house when she arrived in New Orleans, and had called her out +there. She had also been eager to go out. + +Apparently Ruth reported to me when he called from New Orleans, saying +he had a job and "come live with me, come back with me," Marina had +been very happy. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you specifically consider the question before you let +Marina move into your home as to whether Oswald was a violent person? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes, specifically. I talked it over with Frank. Frank raised +the question also. So I talked it over with Ruth several times, and +Frank brought up the question, and I thought of it myself. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you concluded on the basis of these discussions and +your knowledge of Oswald, your collective knowledge of Oswald, at that +time that he was not a violent person; is that correct? + +Mr. PAINE. That he wasn't going to stab Ruth or Marina. + +Mr. LIEBELER. That he wasn't going to exhibit any violence to any of +you people? + +Mr. PAINE. That is right. He wouldn't be a danger to Ruth. That was +partly based, first, on the fact that we were not--we were careful to +avoid putting him in a position that he felt offended. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't consider at the time that you were considering +Oswald's possible violence toward you and your group whether he might +exhibit violence to some other person? + +Mr. PAINE. That is correct; yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You formed no judgment about that one way or the other? + +Mr. PAINE. That is correct. We assumed or felt that--if we handled him +with a gentle or considerate manner that he wouldn't be a danger to us. + +Mr. DULLES. In the light of subsequent information and developments, +and the information which is publicly available, have you reached any +other conclusions as to or any conclusions as to whether or not Lee +Oswald was the assassin of the President? + +Mr. PAINE. When the police first asked me did I think he had done it, +my dubiousness in my mind arose from not seeing how this could fit, how +this could help his cause, and I didn't think he was irrational. It +did not seem to me that he could shoot a man as he would shoot a tin +can. Difficulty of a person shooting another person was not the reason +for my doubting, and the circumstantial evidence seemed quite powerful +to me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Seemed quite powerful? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. But then I realized with subsequent people calling from +all over the country, somebody had said it is only a single-shot rifle, +and I recognize one little fact like that could alter my thinking +entirely. Somebody else said there was a shot through the windshield of +the car. We went down to the place and looked around, and he thought +that--he had a theory that the man had been shot from a manhole in the +street, so I recognized that my views could change with evidence. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have a view on Oswald's guilt at this time? + +Mr. PAINE. Most of these other things have proved to be false. It +seems to be a clip-fed rifle. The man who thought it was shot from +the place, I went down and saw the diagram drawn by Life seemed to be +quite accurate so far as I could reconstruct the thing, and there was +confusion about the number of bullets. I never did discover--it didn't +quite make sense, but for the most part, I accept it, the common view +that he did it. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you on the morning of November 22, 1963? + +Mr. PAINE. I was having, at the time of the assassination I was at +work, of course, but at the time of the assassination I was in the +cafeteria associated with the bowling alley having lunch. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who was with you? + +Mr. PAINE. A student, a co-op student called Dave Noel happened to be +with me. We happened to be talking about the character of assassins at +that lunchtime, of all things. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to the time you heard of the assassination? + +Mr. PAINE. That is right. When we first sat down at the meal we +were discussing it, beside the point, except unless you believe in +extrasensory perception, but we happened to just--we didn't have enough +historical knowledge to explore it, but I just raised the question +and tried to pursue it, and then dropped it, and then a waitress came +and said the President had been shot, and I thought she was cracking +a nasty joke, and went over to a cluster of people listening around a +transistor set, and heard there was some commotion of this sort from +the tone of the voice of the transistor set, and we went back to the +lab where there is a good radio, and followed the news from there. + +When it was mentioned, the Texas School Book Depository Building was +mentioned, then I told Frank Krystinik that that was where Lee Oswald +worked, and then in a few minutes he came back and said, he asked me, +didn't I think I had better call the FBI and tell them. + +So over a period of about 20 minutes, I trying to carry on work in a +foolish way, or talking or discussing other things or something, we +were discussing this problem, and I thought, I said to myself, or said +to him, that the FBI already knew he worked there. Everybody would know +he was a black sheep, and I didn't want to--a friend or one of the few +friends in position of friendship to him, I didn't want to--join the +mob barking at his heels or join in his harassment, so I declined. I +didn't tell Frank that he couldn't call the FBI, but I said I wasn't +going to do it, so I didn't. + +I called Ruth immediately after getting back just to see that she +would turn on the radio and be clued in with the news, but this was +before the Texas School Book Depository Building was mentioned, to my +knowledge, and she was already watching the news. So we communicated +nothing at that time. + +Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether your luncheon companion did or did not +telephone the FBI? + +Mr. PAINE. This is not the luncheon companion. This is Dave Noel. Frank +Krystinik brings his lunch, and he eats his lunch at the lab. + +Mr. DULLES. At the lab? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Paine, would you give us the nature of the +conversation you were having concerning assassination prior to the +assassination. First let me ask you was anybody else present beside +you and your companion at the time of the conversation? + +Mr. PAINE. No, just he and I. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us the general essence of the conversation as best +you can recall. + +Mr. PAINE. There had been talk, of course, people, I don't get a +newspaper, but I do listen to the radio. I know what my news source is, +it is mostly magazines. So there was some anxiety about the President +coming to Dallas-Fort Worth, and it appeared that this thought was in +the minds of several others, I was not singular in this way. It had +been expected, of course, that trouble would come from the right-wing, +and I was wondering whether there was any danger, I suppose, that +is somebody who could be drummed up by local feeling. The number of +anti-Kennedy jokes cracked was quite large in Texas, and so I was +wondering, you know, what kind of a person would kill a President, and +I don't think Dave Noel knew anything about it, so it was just musing +or conjecturing on my part. I certainly didn't think of Lee Oswald. I +didn't expect it from that cause, from that end of the spectrum. + +Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first think of Lee Oswald in connection with +the assassination? + +Mr. PAINE. As soon as I heard the Texas School Book Depository Building +mentioned. Now, I did not know that--it never occurred to me, I didn't +realize, there was a building there on his route. I had seen this +warehouse building from the expressway, you can see the name written in +large letters, but that is the way from any main thoroughfare. So I had +supposed, I never put--except when it was mentioned that that was the +building he shot from or was the building that the shot was fired from, +then I realized I did know where he worked. + +Mr. DULLES. You had not been at Irving that previous night? + +Mr. PAINE. No, I had not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You knew Oswald worked at the Texas School Book +Depository Building? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes, I did. + +Mr. LIEBELER. As soon as you heard that that building was involved in +the assassination, you thought of Oswald, did you not? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What did you think? + +Mr. PAINE. Wondering whether Oswald would do it. And the argument +against it, the only argument against it, was just I didn't think he +was irrational, or it seemed to me to be irrational. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And you asked yourself the question of whether or not +Oswald would do it solely on the basis of your knowledge that he worked +in that building, is that correct? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. Well, I didn't realize he worked in that building, but +then I realized I didn't know--I knew he worked at that organization. I +didn't realize there was a building on Elm Street there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to your wife after you heard that the +Texas School Book Depository Building was involved in the shooting, +and before you subsequently heard that Oswald had been arrested in +connection with the assassination? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't believe so. I think I called her only once to see +that she was listening to the news, and then I assumed she would know +all that I knew, and as soon as she heard that I supposed she would +be wondering the same thing. It wasn't many minutes later though, it +seemed to me, that the name Lee Oswald was mentioned--in the theater. +The newsmen didn't connect it up at all, but that is all I needed to +send me home. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So then you left for your home in Irving? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You left for home before there had been any public +connection made between Oswald and the assassination, is that correct? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, of course, the police were reporting they had suspects +here and suspects there, were chasing suspects over here, and here was +a man who had shot Officer Tippit. They didn't even mention him as a +suspect, but there was another murder coincident in time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So the news broadcast connected Oswald with Officer +Tippit? + +Mr. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you then consider again whether or not Oswald had +been involved in the assassination? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, that was too much to have his name mentioned away from +his place of work as having killed somebody; the stew was too thick to +stay at work, and I was shaken too much, anyway. + +Mr. LIEBELER. So your testimony is that you first thought of Oswald +after you heard of the Texas School Book Depository Building being +involved in the assassination, but you concluded at that time that +Oswald was probably not involved in the assassination; is that correct? + +Mr. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is there any other reason other than the fact Oswald +was at that building that made you think of him when you heard that +building mentioned in connection with the assassination? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, yes; Oswald, of course, stands--he is a black sheep +in society; I mean he is, if you were to pick out the singular person +among the employees there, he is the one, or he is probably the one. +I don't happen to know the people who worked there. I gather from him +there were about 30 people working there in a fairly large building. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What was your state of mind when you heard that the Texas +School Book Depository Building was involved in the shooting, did you +deeply suspect Oswald had been involved, or was it just a passing +thought? Tell us some more about that if you can, recreate your state +of mind. + +Mr. PAINE. I think I was nervous. I know I was trying to assemble +a vibration meter and could not put in the screws or I kept making +mistakes. I was preoccupied. Of course, the darn fools, we should have +all stopped to mourn the President, but it is kind of a habit, I wasn't +accustomed, habit drove us on, very unhappy or unresolved emotional +time. I thought, firstly, Frank was quite insistent, he didn't just ask +me once, but several times, whether I didn't think I should call the +FBI. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he thought you should call the FBI? + +Mr. PAINE. Well, he would have, but he is of that nature. At one time +he had seen someone taking pictures of Hensley Field, which has signs +on the outside "No Photographs Allowed," and I said I believe more in +freedom. It seems to me if the field doesn't want the pictures taken, +they had better put up a big fence. But he had gone ahead and called +up the base commander, and the base commander knew the man. That was +his normal mode of behavior, whereas my normal defense is of the +individual, and I didn't think--I would not like to, if Lee is falsely +accused, I wouldn't want to be jumping on him with the mob. If he is +properly, if he is guilty, he will be found. They know he works there, +he is connected to us. I couldn't contribute to his capture, so that my +withholding information wouldn't harm the search for the right man, and +having jumped on him unfairly I might be ashamed of that later on. So +that was my feeling in regard to whether I should call the FBI. I think +I just kind of felt cold sweats or something like that in regard to +the question could he have done that thing. I don't think I went much +beyond that, could he, could he. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did Krystinik indicate to you any reason for his desire +to call the FBI? Did he suspect Oswald had done this on the basis of +his knowledge of Oswald? + +Mr. PAINE. It seemed to me very reasonable that he should think so. Of +course, I don't think the others were so sharply aware, the others in +the lab were so sharply aware that we were wrestling with this problem. + +The CHAIRMAN. He didn't say anything to you, he didn't tell you any +other reason? + +Mr. PAINE. No, he didn't; but his reaction seemed perfectly reasonable +to me. + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes. + +Mr. PAINE. I felt the same one--if you were to pick out somebody in +that building, it was a rather singular coincidence we knew this man +who was so negative to our society and not an ingratiating person, not +a person with compassion or something. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What time did you arrive at your home in Irving? + +Mr. PAINE. I would guess about 3 or 3:30, somewhere in that +neighborhood. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there when you arrived? + +Mr. PAINE. The police, the Dallas police mostly were there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Your wife was there? + +Mr. PAINE. My wife and Marina. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you said when you arrived? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't know. No, I don't remember what I said. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you say in words or substance, "I came right home +as soon as I heard the shots were fired from the Texas School Book +Depository Building?" + +Mr. PAINE. No, I came right home as soon as I heard Lee Oswald +mentioned. I did not come home. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember saying that you came right home as soon +as you heard that Oswald was involved? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes, I think I said something like that. Ruth asked me. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you mentioned before that after you arrived home you +went into the garage when the police officers went into your garage. +Was there any indication to you at that time that the garage had been +previously searched by the police or anyone else? + +Mr. PAINE. This I don't remember very well. But, as I remember, this +was not the first time we had gone in there. I think, perhaps, they +went into--I don't remember, but I don't think it was the first time +they had gone in. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You said when you did go into the garage, however, the +blanket was there in the garage? + +Mr. PAINE. I think it was. It was still there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us, to the best of your recollection, what was said +in respect of the blanket and search of the garage, as you say. Before +you answer that question, let me ask you, did your wife go with you +into the garage with the police officers? + +Mr. PAINE. I think they were further in in the garage. I think I +stayed--the band saw is fairly close to--there is an overhead door to +the garage, and close to the under edge of that when it is pulled up. +In other words, it is fairly close to the outside in the garage, and I +think I stayed somewhat near the door entering the garage, which is the +inside end of the garage. + +Mr. LIEBELER. And your wife was with the police officers further in? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes, I think she was. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Was Marina Oswald there? + +Mr. PAINE. Failure of recollection, I would say, yes. But it is a very +fuzzy recollection. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us where the blanket was found? + +Mr. PAINE. It doesn't really make sense as to why they would still +leave the blanket there, and these things would have been discussed +at that time, but I kind of remember a kind of silhouette situation, +a police officer either lifted up or kicked this blanket, which was +in exactly the same location that the rifle, the package had been, +underneath the saw and somewhat in the sawdust. And I think he put it +back there. He may have asked me at that time, "Did you know what was +in this?" + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that? + +Mr. PAINE. And that is why I think they asked me, it may have been as +early as that, whether it was a rifle, "Do you think it could have been +a rifle?" I don't remember how it was posed, but I probably answered +when it was suggested, it was a rifle, and there they suggested it was +a rifle, because they had already learned from Marina that he had had +a rifle, and it had been, perhaps, had learned it had been in that +blanket. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know they had previously asked Marina about that? + +Mr. PAINE. No; but I think--I'm just telling you my impressions here, +very fuzzy impressions. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead. + +Mr. PAINE. My impression was that they asked me if I knew what was in +this blanket, or he asked me, and then he asked me if it could be a +rifle, and I probably responded, yes. It didn't take long once the +rifle was suggested as the object to fit this puzzle together, this +puzzle of the pieces that I had been trying to assemble in the package. + +Mr. LIEBELER. What else happened? + +Mr. PAINE. We went out of the garage, I don't think he took the blanket +then even. + +Mr. LIEBELER. This is the Dallas police officer? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes, plainclothesman, wearing black hats; one of them had +one of those Texas hats. He collected all the useless stuff in our +house, he went around and collected all the files of Ruth, and a +drawer of cameras, mostly belonging to me. I tried to tell him one of +the files contained our music or something like that, and the more I +suggested it, that he not bother taking those, the more insistent he +was in taking those objects. + +So with the various boxes and piles of stuff, mostly of our stuff, +we got in the car and went off, and he was quite irked that we had +wasted quite enough time around there, he said, and Ruth was irked, and +everybody was irked by it. He wouldn't let us be helpful, and thought +we were--he became angry when we tried to be helpful or something that +we would suggest that he should do. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you how they happened to come to your house? + +Mr. PAINE. No. I don't remember. I think I may have asked it, "You +found us pretty quickly," or somebody said this, but I don't remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any other conversations about this +blanket? + +Mr. PAINE. No. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did anyone notice any scraps of paper or tape similar +to the ones of which these sacks were constructed that we previously +identified, particularly Commission 142? + +Mr. PAINE. Not that I remember. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything else that happened during this period +prior to the time the police left that you think would be significant +or that we ought to know about? + +Mr. PAINE. No; very little happened. We just bundled up and went. +Marina was--whimpered a little bit, but mostly it was dry. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You went with the police? + +Mr. PAINE. We went with the police in several cars and didn't come back +until quite a lot later that night, didn't go into the garage again; +didn't want the Life reporters to take photographs, so I don't think +they went in the garage to take photographs. Several--their possessions +were searched by various waves of succeeding policemen, Dallas, and +Irving and FBI, and what not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Now, there has been a report that on November 23, 1963, +there was a telephone call between a man and a woman, between the +numbers of your residence and the number of your office, in which the +man was reported to have said in words or substance, "We both know who +is responsible for the assassination." Have you been asked about this +before? + +Mr. PAINE. I had heard that--I didn't know it was associated with our +numbers. I had heard a report that some telephone operator had listened +in on a conversation somewhere, I don't know where it was. I thought it +was some other part of the country. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to your wife on the telephone at any time +during Saturday, November 23, on the telephone? + +Mr. PAINE. I was in the police station again, and I think I called her +from there. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make any remark to the effect that you knew who +was responsible? + +Mr. PAINE. And I don't know who the assassin is or was; no, so I did +not. + +Mr. LIEBELER. You are positive in your recollection that you made no +such remark? + +Mr. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us your impression and your opinion of +the relationship that had developed between Marina Oswald and your +wife during the period that they knew each other up to the time of +the assassination and subsequent to the assassination when, as we +discussed briefly yesterday, there came to be a cooling off between +them or a disenchantment. + +Mr. PAINE. Ruth was mostly learning the language, so she was limited +in her vocabulary and couldn't talk about--she explained to me she +couldn't talk about--political or economic subjects. It was a topic on +which her vocabulary didn't serve her, but it did appear she had spoken +of quite a number of things. Marina had told her about movies she had +seen in the Soviet Union, but I thought that the knowledge, Ruth's +knowledge, I suppose Ruth's knowledge of Marina was fairly shallow. And +Marina was quite reserved. Now, it may have been more so when I was in +the house that she was not as much at ease as she was, perhaps, with +Ruth herself. + +Of course, Marina was in a position where she always had to be polite. +Ruth is easy to get along with, however, so I didn't expect Marina to +have difficulty. But I didn't think Ruth and Marina were bosom friends +or buddies, but neither, of course, I didn't mean to suggest the +opposite. + +Ruth was enjoying Marina's company and I was glad to have Marina +staying with Ruth. It actually reduced the cost. Ruth saved money. +The bills were less while Marina was there, and Ruth, in general, was +happier. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn---- + +Mr. PAINE. I didn't think Ruth knew Marina very well, but I don't know +how well she knew her. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn subsequently or are you aware that +subsequent to the assassination there has been a disenchantment or some +strain between Marina and Ruth? + +Mr. PAINE. Several things happened. Ruth was put out when she learned +Marina knew afterward that Oswald had taken a shot at Walker, if that +were true. She thought that was quite morally remiss on Marina's part, +and so we talked about that thing. + +Mr. DULLES. When did she learn that? + +Mr. PAINE. This was in the newspaper report. + +Mr. DULLES. She only learned it through the newspaper? + +Mr. PAINE. That is correct. So we discussed the mitigating +circumstances of Marina not knowing the language and not knowing who +she could go to if she wanted to stay in this country and, perhaps--we +believe there were extenuating circumstances which would, perhaps, +excuse Marina. Ruth was troubled about that, and so she wrote a series +of quite a number of letters, each one referring to previous letters, +trying to discover whether they were being withheld, thinking Marina +was a responsible person or normally civil person, she would normally +respond to or at least acknowledge receipt of them. + +So Ruth didn't know whether she was receiving them or not, and had +another--some encounters with Martin and Thorne which didn't put her at +ease. She still didn't know whether Marina was receiving them. She saw +only some of the checks had been signed by Thorne rather than Marina. +Thorne had said that Marina didn't say he had power of attorney, and +Marina was trying to do everything that she could which, at least, she +could sign her checks, checks or gifts. + +So there were these indications. Ruth was very much in the dark, not +knowing why she had received no communication from Marina, and having +conflicting reports from Martin. Martin said she had a phone right +beside her if she wanted to call. + +Mr. DULLES. How did she receive these checks? + +Mr. PAINE. I guess Ruth--some of the checks came to Ruth as gifts to +her, and Ruth would write her own check so she got her own stub back. + +Mr. DULLES. I see. + +Mr. PAINE. Therefore, Ruth had this question of whether she had +offended Marina or whether Marina had done something that offended Ruth +or whether Marina didn't like Ruth and had never let on. This would be +a great blow to her ego. It had Ruth in great periods of depression and +anxiety. + +Mr. DULLES. Did either you or your wife, to your knowledge, know Robert +Oswald? + +Mr. PAINE. We only met him for the first time on the night of the +assassination. We both liked him at that time. + +Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Paine, is there any other subject that we haven't +covered in the testimony that you think the Commission ought to know +about in connection with this assassination? + +Mr. PAINE. I don't believe there is anything else that I know. + +Mr. LIEBELER. I have no more questions. + +The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any questions, Mr. Dulles? + +Mr. DULLES. The only question I have in mind is as to what took place +as far as Mr. Paine is concerned on the night of the assassination. +Were you in the police station? + +Mr. PAINE. We went down to the police and stayed there until about 8 or +9 o'clock. Then Marguerite came home with us and spent the night. + +Mr. DULLES. You didn't see Lee Harvey at that time, did you? + +Mr. PAINE. They asked me and I declined to see him at that time. I +changed my mind. When they immediately asked me, I declined. I did not +know what he would ask me, so I did not see him. + +Mr. DULLES. You did not see him? + +Mr. PAINE. No. + +Mr. DULLES. Did your wife see him? + +Mr. PAINE. I think no one saw him. Marina went in the next morning +hoping to see him. + +Mr. DULLES. There were no conversations that took place that evening +that are pertinent to our investigation so far as you know? + +Mr. PAINE. Quite soon I called the ACLU. There were reports, yes, I +think at that time, that Friday night, Marguerite was saying he wasn't +receiving counsel, and so I called the ACLU to see if there was anybody +there checking to see if this was true, and apparently a delegation, +this was Saturday morning, and apparently a delegation had been sent. + +Mr. DULLES. But to your knowledge neither you nor your wife had any +conversations with Marina or Robert that would throw any light on this +apparent coolness? + +Mr. PAINE. Ruth apparently saw Marina this last weekend. We have some +indications that people had gone between, chiefly Levine. + +Mr. DULLES. You think money considerations had anything to do with this? + +Mr. PAINE. I think quite a lot--it will be borne out, between Ruth and +Marina subsequently, I think they will find the difficulties. I think +Thorne---- + +Mr. DULLES. What I have in mind is as to whether some of these other +people thought that you and Ruth might intervene in as business manager +or something of that kind between them, and the monetary considerations +that were coming in to Marina. + +Mr. PAINE. We didn't know why. We have the feeling that Thorne was +advising her not to speak to Ruth. Ruth is not interested in the +money, but is interested in protecting her from the wolves, and so she +thought, we both thought, there were some false stories being told to +Marina in regard to Ruth. + +Mr. DULLES. That is all. + +The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Paine. + +Mr. PAINE. Thank you, sir. + +The CHAIRMAN. We will examine Mrs. Paine this afternoon at 2 o'clock. + +(Whereupon, at 1:05 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +Afternoon Session + +TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE + + +The President's Commission reconvened at 2:20 p.m. + +Mr. McCLOY. Before I ask you to be sworn, Mrs. Paine. I will give you a +little general indication of what our testimony is apt to cover. + +We have heard that you and your husband made the acquaintance of the +Oswalds somewhere during 1963, and that Mrs. Marina Oswald lived in +your home from late September 1963, I believe, to the time of the +assassination. + +Since we are inquiring under our mandate into the background and the +possible motives of the assassination by Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged +assassin, we will question you regarding your association with Mr. +Oswald and try to glean from you any other facts that may bear upon the +assassination or its motivation. + +I believe you have been furnished with a copy of the executive order +under which we are operating as well as the Congressional resolution? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. McCLOY. Now if you will please stand, I will swear you. + +Mrs. PAINE. I would like to affirm. + +Mr. McCLOY. Do you solemnly affirm that the evidence you will give in +this investigation will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but +the truth? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do. + +Mr. McCLOY. Will you state your full name for the record and your +address? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am Ruth Hyde Paine. I live at 2515 West Fifth Street, in +Irving, Tex. + +Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Jenner is going to conduct the examination. + +Mr. JENNER. Your maiden name? + +Mrs. PAINE. Is Hyde. + +Mr. JENNER. Ruth Avery Hyde. + +Mrs. PAINE. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. You are wife of Michael Ralph Paine? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were born September 3, 1932? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You are almost 34 years old. + +Mrs. PAINE. Almost 32. I will be 32 in September. + +Mr. JENNER. Pretty bad arithmetic. Just a little bit of your +background, Mrs. Paine, very little. Your mother and father are living? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And your mother is an Unitarian Minister ordained in the +Unitarian Church at the moment? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she is. + +Mr. JENNER. And received her degree in theology last summer I believe, +is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. No, she has completed her work for a Bachelor of Divinity +Degree from Oberlin College and she will receive it in the spring. They +don't give them in mid-year. She completed just the first of February. + +Mr. JENNER. You yourself are a college graduate? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Antioch College? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yellow Springs. + +Mr. JENNER. Yellow Springs, Ohio? + +Mrs. PAINE. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. You have a brother and sister. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And your mother, your father, yourself, your brother, and +your sister are your entire family. + +Mrs. PAINE. My immediate family. + +Mr. JENNER. Your brother is a graduate of Antioch also, he and your +sister. Are they older than you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, they are. + +Mr. JENNER. Which is the elder of the two? + +Mrs. PAINE. My brother is the oldest. + +Mr. JENNER. And your brother is a professional man, is he? + +Mrs. PAINE. He is a doctor, general practitioner. + +Mr. JENNER. A general physician, and he practices in Yellow Springs, +Ohio? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us where Yellow Springs is? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is about 60 miles south and west from Columbus, Ohio, +the capital, which is more or less in the middle of the State, and +just a little bit east of Dayton. + +Mr. JENNER. Is your brother married. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, he is. + +Mr. JENNER. Does he have a family? + +Mrs. PAINE. He has four children. + +Mr. JENNER. And is your sister married? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she is. + +Mr. JENNER. Does she have a family? + +Mrs. PAINE. She has four children. + +Mr. JENNER. And each of your brothers and your sister, it is their +first marriage? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Now you were married to Mr. Paine December 28, 1957, is +that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe so. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were married where, in Philadelphia? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was suburban Philadelphia. Friends meeting in Media, Pa. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us what the Friends meeting is which you +have mentioned? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am a member of the Society of Friends often known as +Quakers. + +Mr. JENNER. You are a Quaker? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you embrace that faith? + +Mrs. PAINE. I joined in early 1951, I believe. + +Mr. JENNER. Has any other member of your family embraced the Quaker +faith? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; my brother is also a Quaker. + +Mr. JENNER. When did he embrace that faith. + +Mrs. PAINE. Similar in time, a year or two one way or the other. I +don't recall exactly. + +Mr. JENNER. I am afraid I might have been inattentive. When did you say +that occurred? + +Mrs. PAINE. Similar in time. I don't remember just when exactly he +joined. + +Mr. JENNER. I was thinking more as to when you said you did. + +Mrs. PAINE. In early '51, I think; I am quite certain it was winter of +'51. + +Mr. JENNER. You were then in college? + +Mrs. PAINE. That was the year out. I went to Antioch one year and then +I took a year out and I joined my home meeting in Columbus which I had +already attended perhaps 2 years. + +Mr. JENNER. And from the time you joined the Quaker church you have +been a member of that church? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Or that faith? + +Mrs. PAINE. Or church; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Ever since? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now you and Mr. Paine, did you take up a residence in +Philadelphia as soon as you married? + +Mrs. PAINE. I had been living in Philadelphia working there, and then +when we married I moved to suburban Philadelphia where Michael was +living, Paoli, Pa. + +Mr. JENNER. His folks live in Paoli, also, do they not? + +Mrs. PAINE. His mother and stepfather. + +Mr. JENNER. And you remained in Paoli until when? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, it was summer of '59 we were in the process of +moving, didn't complete it until fall of '59. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. You moved to where? + +Mrs. PAINE. To Irving, where we are now, to the present address. + +Mr. JENNER. To your present home? And that was in the summer of 1959? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. At some later stage we will go into what occurred. In the +meantime we have you now in Irving, Tex. Is that a suburb of Dallas? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You and your husband purchased the home you have there +before you went down. + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no; we stayed at a small apartment for several weeks +looking around and then rented for a year, and then we purchased the +house we have been renting. + +Mr. JENNER. So you purchased that and moved in in 1960, is that about +right? + +Mrs. PAINE. We first moved into it in the fall of '59. + +Mr. JENNER. You rented it and then purchased it. + +Mrs. PAINE. The same house; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, thank you. You have two children? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. A boy and a girl? + +Mrs. PAINE. A girl and a boy. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you name the oldest of the two. + +Mrs. PAINE. Sylvia Lynn and the boy--she is now 4. The boy is +Christopher and he is 3. + +Mr. JENNER. The point I was getting at, your daughter, Sylvia, was born +after you reached Texas? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And what was her birth? + +Mrs. PAINE. She was born on November 17, '59. + +Mr. JENNER. 1959. Now you are acquainted, became acquainted with Marina +Oswald, did you not, in due course in Irving, Tex.? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. I first met her and her husband at a gathering of +people in Dallas at the home of Everett Glover. + +Mr. JENNER. I will get to that in a moment. + +Mrs. PAINE. Okay. I had not met her before that. + +Mr. JENNER. At this time you and your husband were living in your +present home in Irving, Tex.? + +Mrs. PAINE. In '59. + +Mr. JENNER. At the time that you met Marina Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. Michael moved to an apartment in September of 1962. + +Mr. JENNER. There had been some strained relations or difficulties +between yourself and your husband Michael. When we shake our heads we +don't get it on the record. + +The answer to that is "Yes"? + +Mrs. PAINE. Is "No." I had not met her when there had been some +strained relations between me and my husband. It is just we are having +difficulties with words. + +Mr. JENNER. What I was getting at--there had been some strained +relations, is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And Mr. Paine had moved to separate quarters. This was in +September of 1962, correct. + +Mrs. PAINE. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. You met Marina for the first time when. + +Mrs. PAINE. I judge it was the last of February, towards the end of +February of 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. You were then living with your children in your home at +2515. + +Mrs. PAINE. West Fifth. + +Mr. JENNER. West Fifth Street in Irving, Tex. Now would you please +relate the circumstances under which the meeting between yourself and +Marina Oswald first occurred in February of 1963. + +Mrs. PAINE. I was invited to come to the home of Everett Glover to +meet a few friends of his, and I judge that was on the 22d of February +looking back at my calendar. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you please tell us who Mr. Everett Glover was and how +you became acquainted with him. + +What was the milieu? + +Mrs. PAINE. I met Mr. Glover at a group gathered to sing madrigals +together. These are old English songs where each part has a melody and +it was for the enjoyment of reading the music and in harmony, and we +often had coffee afterward and would talk. + +Mr. JENNER. This included your husband, however, did it not? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes indeed. + +Mr. JENNER. You had a common interest in this? + +Mrs. PAINE. Madrigal singing? + +Mr. JENNER. Madrigal singing? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And went together. + +Mr. JENNER. Proceed. + +Mrs. PAINE. And then Everett knew that I was interested in learning +Russian well enough to teach it, and since this gathering was to +include some people who spoke Russian, he invited me and he invited +Michael also to attend. Michael caught a bad cold and wasn't able to go. + +I went. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, could I interrupt you a moment here. Though your +husband was living in his own quarters, the relations between you, +however, were not so disruptive but what you were friendly, and you +were attending these singing groups? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. I saw him perhaps once or twice a week for +dinner at my house, and we went out to rather more movies than some of +my married friends. + +Mr. JENNER. There was reasonable cordiality? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. I don't wish to pry into your private life. + +Mrs. PAINE. If it is pertinent, go ahead. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, there is some necessity. We might touch a +little on your private life if you will forgive me for doing it. Mr. +Glover, is he a single person? + +Mrs. PAINE. He was at the time of the party. He has been divorced from +his wife. He is now remarried. + +Mr. JENNER. Now I interrupted you at the point at which you were +relating that Mr. Glover had raised with you, I assume this was a +telephone call, that he was going to have some guests. He knew of your +interest in the study and the learning of the Russian language and its +use? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Do I correctly summarize it up to the moment? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You have an entry in your calendar as I recall on this +subject. There is a question mark. + +Mrs. PAINE. I recall it says "Everett?" + +Mr. JENNER. May I hand the witness the document? + +Mr. McCLOY. You may. + +Mr. JENNER. This will be Commission Exhibit No. 401. Gentlemen for the +purpose of identification of the exhibit, it is Mrs. Paine's calendar +which she used in part as a diary and part to record prospective +appointments and she surrendered it to the FBI. This is not merely a +photostat, it is a picture taken with a camera of that calendar. + +(Commission Exhibit No. 401 was marked for identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. May I ask you a question or two about it Mrs. Paine. Did +you not go through each of the pages of that calendar with me this +morning? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did. + +Mr. JENNER. And I asked you, did I not, whether it was all in your +handwriting? + +Mrs. PAINE. You did. + +Mr. JENNER. Except for the identification on the front, the officer who +received it from you--he made a notation of the date of receipt--it is +all in your handwriting? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And it is in the same condition now, isn't it, as it was +when you surrendered it? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you turn to the diary page to which I have reference +in connection with the first meeting with Marina Oswald, and that is +what month and what page and what date? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is on the page for February, and the only thing I can---- + +Mr. McCLOY. February what year? + +Mrs. PAINE. February 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. And the day please? + +Mrs. PAINE. There is a notation on the 22d of February. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, there is a square with the figure 22 in it +indicating February 22, 1963. Do you have something written in there? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What is written in there? + +Mrs. PAINE. It says "Everett's?" + +Mr. JENNER. Is that all there is in that square? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is all. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you explain that and how it related to what you are +now telling us? + +Mrs. PAINE. I believe it refers to the invitation to come to his home. +As I recall, he telephoned me twice, first to say that they might +get together a group of people, hence the question mark. Then he +called again to say they were going to have a party, and to make the +invitation definite. + +Mr. JENNER. Now you used the expression "I believe." Is that your best +recollection at the moment? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. And I went over this with you this morning and you gave me +the same explanation, did you not? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now did that event take place? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And what is your best recollection as to the day of the +month it took place? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have no other way of guessing when it was except to +assume that this notation means it was on the 22d of February. + +Mr. JENNER. And that does represent your present best recollection +refreshed to the extent it is refreshed by the memorandum before you? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right, and of course this first---- + +Mr. JENNER. What day of the week was that? + +Mrs. PAINE. That was a Friday. + +Mr. JENNER. Friday night. You attended the party did you not? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did. + +Mr. McCLOY. I believe you used the word Friday. I don't believe she +did, Friday night. You said Friday night. + +Mrs. PAINE. It was Friday evening. + +Mr. JENNER. Friday evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. The 22d was Friday. I don't recall. + +Mr. McCLOY. You used the word "evening"? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was an evening party. + +Mr. JENNER. It was held in Mr. Glover's home was it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it was. + +Mr. JENNER. Where is his home? + +Mrs. PAINE. At that time he was living in the Highland Park section of +Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. How far from your home is that? + +Mrs. PAINE. Half hour drive. + +Mr. JENNER. By what means did you get to Mr. Glover's home? + +Mrs. PAINE. I drove. + +Mr. JENNER. You owned or then had, or maybe you still have a station +wagon? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it the same car still? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is the same car. + +Mr. JENNER. And when you arrived, were either of the Oswalds present? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am not sure I recall accurately. I think they came a +little after I arrived. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you give us your best recollection of all the people, +couples if you can remember them that way, and then single persons or +persons there without their wives or husbands, as the case may be, that +evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I will try. The Oswalds, two were there, Marina and +Lee, Everett Glover, the host, Mr. and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt who were +the friendship link between the Oswalds and Glover. + +Mr. JENNER. Could I interrupt you there? Had you known the De +Mohrenschildts? + +Mrs. PAINE. I had never met them. I have not met them since. + +Mr. JENNER. That is the only occasion? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. That you ever saw either Mr. or Mrs. De Mohrenschildt? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. You had no conversations, no letters, no contact whatsoever +with them either before or after this party? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct, no contact whatsoever before or after. +There was a roommate of Everett's. Dirk, I think, I forget the name. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you attempting to recall his first name or his last +name? + +Mrs. PAINE. His first name. I may be wrong. It was a young German +fellow. + +Mr. JENNER. Schmidt? + +Mrs. PAINE. Do you know the first name? + +Mr. JENNER. No, I don't recall the first name. + +Mrs. PAINE. And he had two roommates, so that is two other single men, +and I don't recall their names. + +Mr. JENNER. Was each of them there? + +Mrs. PAINE. They were both there. + +Mr. JENNER. There were two roommates. + +Mrs. PAINE. Two roommates and they were both present at the party. I +should remember their names but I don't. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mrs. PAINE. And there was a couple who lived in Irving; again I don't +recall the name. I don't believe I have seen any of these people since +with the exception of one of the roommates once, and again I don't +recall the name. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see the roommate the second---- + +Mrs. PAINE. I may have seen him since. All these people were new to me +when I came to the party with the exception of Everett. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see the roommate the second time before or after +November 22, 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, it was before. + +Mr. JENNER. But it is a fact that none of these people who were at the +party other than Mr. Glover had you seen or heard of? + +Mrs. PAINE. Before. + +Mr. JENNER. Up to the time that the party was held. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you exhausted your present recollection as to the +people who were present on that occasion. + +Mrs. PAINE. I can't get a name. The couple were living in Irving, I +recall that, but I don't--I have forgotten their name. + +Mr. JENNER. Now the Oswalds arrived shortly after the party began or at +least after you arrived? + +Mrs. PAINE. I believe they came with the De Mohrenschildts. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were introduced, were you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I was introduced. + +Mr. JENNER. By whom? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. It was a very informal gathering. Marina +was wearing slacks and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt also was. I doubt pains +were taken with the introductions. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. + +Mrs. PAINE. I doubt any pains were taken with the introductions. + +Mr. JENNER. How long did the party proceed? + +Mrs. PAINE. It must have started something after 8 o'clock and went +until towards midnight. + +Mr. JENNER. You have an interest in square dancing and that sort of +thing also. Did you do any of that then? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. We talked and ate. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you do any madrigal singing? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. No singing that evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Now before I get to any specificity with respect to Marina +and Lee Oswald, was Russian spoken that night by anybody? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you speak Russian? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Who else at the party had some facility with Russian in +addition to Lee Oswald and Marina Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. Just the De Mohrenschildts, both of them, and myself. + +Mr. JENNER. And yourself. Did you mention that Mr. Glover had some +interest in the Russian language? + +Mrs. PAINE. No, I don't believe he does. + +Mr. JENNER. He did not, all right. Were the Oswalds really the center +of attention that evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think so, yes, although you can't say that there was a +single center for the entire evening. It wasn't like being invited to +hear what he had to say. It was much more informal than that. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you speak with Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you converse with her during the course of the evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. Very briefly. She spent the first part of the evening +trying to get June to go to sleep. + +Mr. JENNER. June is her daughter? + +Mrs. PAINE. The little girl with her. + +Mr. JENNER. She brought her daughter with her did she? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, and then we talked some in the kitchen with Mrs. De +Mohrenschildt, Marina and I. + +Mr. JENNER. And what subject did you ladies pursue? + +Mrs. PAINE. I really can't remember. The actual conversation with +Marina didn't cover much time at all. I saw very little of her that +evening. + +Mr. JENNER. That evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Can you remember any subject you talked to her about in the +kitchen? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. What subjects were discussed, I assume in the living room +or--where everybody was gathered? Do you recall what was being pursued +there in the way of conversation. + +Mrs. PAINE. Part of the time Lee talked with people who were asking +him about his trip to Russia. I believe Everett had told me that he +had been, so I knew that when I arrived. And the fact that he had gone +intending to become a citizen in the Soviet Union. He talked freely and +with considerable interest in his subject to the three or four people +around him. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you gathered in that group? + +Mrs. PAINE. Part of the time at least I was listening to that. He spoke +of the things about the Soviet Union that had displeased him, as for +instance the censorship. He knew that it had been going on regarding +his letters. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, when you talk in terms of conclusion, we have +a little trouble testifying. If you will give us examples such as +you just gave us about censorship, could we go back a moment to the +conversation about his going to Russia. During the course of that +subject, in questions put to him, was anything he listed as to why he +went to Russia? May I have a yes or no first? + +Do you recall anything like that? + +Mrs. PAINE. I can't be certain that this is when I first got an idea +about why he wanted to go or whether I learned this later. + +Mr. JENNER. Does your memory serve you enough so that there is a fair +possibility that--it is important to us--was the subject discussed at +that gathering? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think so. + +Mr. JENNER. And that is your best recollection? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now would you give us your best recollection of what he +said or what Marina said, but primarily what Mr. Oswald said on that +subject. Why did he go to Russia? + +Mrs. PAINE. I carry the impression, and I think it is recalled from +this evening---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. When you say you carry the impression you are +saying "It is my present recollection." + +Mrs. PAINE. All right. That he spoke of himself as a Marxist that +evening, that he had read certain Marxist books and thought that the +Soviet economic system was superior to ours, and wanted to go to the +Soviet Union and live there. + +Mr. JENNER. What response was elicited from others at the meeting, +agreement? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I would not say there was any agreement. People were +interested. This is an unusual thing to do. And they were interested in +hearing how he found Soviet life, what he thought of it, whether he was +pleased or disappointed. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough to tell the members of the +Commission what Mr. Oswald said in those respects, to the best of your +recollection? + +Mrs. PAINE. He mentioned that he was displeased with the censorship, or +at least he commented on it in a way that I took as unfavorable. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Ma'am. + +Did he say he was---- + +Mrs. PAINE. What had happened, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What censorship is he talking about? + +Mrs. PAINE. He referred to a letter that had been sent to him by Robert +Oswald that he later learned, after he had come back to the United +States, had been sent. He had not received it. He judged that they had +simply stopped it, and he commented that they are more apt to just take +a letter than take out a piece of it and then send it on, and that +censorship is more obvious. + +Mr. JENNER. All right, go on. + +Mrs. PAINE. I wondered, listening to him, whether he really was---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, please. Before we get to what you wondered +about, exhaust your recollection as to what he said, what others might +have said on the subjects in his presence about which he talked. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is all I can think of. + +Mr. JENNER. You mentioned, also, Mrs. Paine, that there was discussed +that evening the subject of his return to America. + +Mrs. PAINE. Obviously, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Why he returned, was that subject discussed? + +Mrs. PAINE. Not very much, no. I can't recall any specifics relating to +that. + +Mr. JENNER. All you can recall, I take it, at the moment, is that there +was an allusion to the subject? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, he was clearly here, yes. He had come back, +and--well, I have to put it in terms of what I guess or what I feel was +his reaction. I can't give you a specific recall. + +Mr. JENNER. We have no objection to your doing that. We would like +to have you first state all you can recall as to what specifically +happened in this instance. How did Mr. Oswald treat or regard--what +relationship did you gather existed between Marina and her husband, +a cordial one as of that occasion, separating from what you learned +afterward, but just this initial instance. What impression did you have? + +Mrs. PAINE. Almost none. There was very little contact between them +during the evening. He spoke English to those that were asking them +questions. She was either in the bedroom by herself trying to get the +little baby to go to sleep, or in the kitchen speaking Russian to the +De Mohrenschildts. I listened more than I spoke in that situation. + +Mr. JENNER. When Mr. Oswald was in the living room with you ladies and +gentlemen, the conversation was in English, was it not? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, that when Marina returned to the room +Russian was spoken, at least by those who had command of the Russian +language. + +Mrs. PAINE. When she was in the same room, there was more than one +conversation going on, and in two languages. + +Mr. JENNER. When anybody spoke to Marina---- + +Mrs. PAINE. It was in Russian. + +Mr. JENNER. It was in Russian. When people spoke with each other other +than with Marina, it was in English, is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, in very short compass what was your impression of Mr. +Oswald at that initial party? + +Mrs. PAINE. I thought he was pleased to be interesting to this group +of people and glad to tell them about his experience, to answer their +questions. He seemed open and forthright. I did wonder as he was +talking about it whether he had come to the conclusion after being in +the Soviet Union that their system was inferior. + +Mr. JENNER. Inferior to ours? + +Mrs. PAINE. To ours, or whether he still thought that the Soviet system +was a better one. His discussion of the censorship made me feel that +he wanted his listeners to know that he was not blind to the defects +of the Soviet system, but it did not convince me that he was in favor +of the American system. I was left wondering which country he thought +conducted itself better. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have an interest in the Oswalds at this moment +wholly apart from your interest in the Russian language? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you intellectually curious about them is all I meant. + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes. Well, it is most unusual to take such a step as he +took. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you had some notice in advance of this meeting, Mrs. +Paine, of the fact that Mr. Oswald was at least--there had been +publications of his having been a defector? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I wasn't aware of that. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you first learn of that? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, a name is always given to someone who goes to the +Soviet Union and wants to have citizenship there, isn't it, so I could +well have assumed that there had been such, but I really didn't learn +about it until after the assassination, I guess. No; I take it back. + +There was a reference now. + +Mr. JENNER. That evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. Specific recall. It is coming. The content of Robert's +letter to him, as I recall, included a clipping from the Fort Worth +newspapers relative to his defection. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine, you are talking about a letter of +Robert Oswald's? + +Mrs. PAINE. A letter from Robert to Lee which Lee never got but heard +about when he came back to the States. + +Mr. JENNER. And that was the subject of discussion that evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. That came up, so, therefore, I did know that he had been +called a defector. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Robert refer to this letter or did someone in the +meeting refer to the letter? + +Mrs. PAINE. Lee referred to the letter in discussion of censorship. + +Mr. JENNER. But up until that moment, you had not had any prior +impression with respect to whether he had been a defector or an +attempted defector? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I think, yes; I had some impression of that sort, +but it came directly from Lee. He said he went to the Soviet Union +and tried to give up his American citizenship, and as I recall, he +said that the American embassy did not relinquish his passport, and, +therefore, he was not eligible to get Soviet citizenship. + +Mr. JENNER. You are remembering more now. + +Mrs. PAINE. I am. + +Mr. JENNER. I am pleased that you are, Mrs. Paine. He did discuss his +attempts to obtain---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. To surrender his passport and to accomplish his Soviet +citizenship? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And that was openly discussed in this gathering? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. McCLOY. This is Senator Cooper, a member of the Commission, Mrs. +Paine. + +Mrs. PAINE. How do you do? + +Mr. JENNER. This party, I gather, lasted approximately from 7 to 12, +did you say? + +Mrs. PAINE. Eight to eleven-thirty or twelve. + +Mr. JENNER. And the party broke up, and you went home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your overall impression of Marina Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. I had very little impression altogether. I did ask for her +address. + +Mr. JENNER. Why did you do that? + +Mrs. PAINE. And I asked if I could write her. I wanted to go visit her +at her home. + +Mr. JENNER. Why? + +Mrs. PAINE. To talk Russian. She is very hard to find, a person +speaking modern Russian, and in fact I know of no other, and this was +an opportunity for me to again practice in the language, a rather +unusual opportunity, and I was interested in meeting her and getting to +know her. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I will go back and develop this lady's +interest in the Russian language during the course of the examination, +and her prior study of the language up to this point. She did have an +abiding interest in the language at this particular point, but I wanted +to get at the initial meeting first before anything further. + +Mr. McCLOY. Very well. + +Mr. JENNER. You say modern Russian, that Marina Oswald had a command of +modern Russian. Would you please explain to us what you mean by that? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I am not in a position to judge a person, whether a +person is speaking modern Russian or not. My language is not that good, +but she talked with--this was later, I only assumed that she had--I +hoped that she spoke good Russian. I didn't know at that time whether +she spoke educated Russian or not. Shall I jump ahead? + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I wish you wouldn't. You meant, then, by your +expression that you hoped to find that she did speak educated Russian? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; right. + +Mr. JENNER. And if she did, that then you might profit or learn from +her educated Russian to a greater degree than you knew it as of that +time? That was your main interest at the moment? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Aside from interests in another lady or human being under +those circumstances? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, until I then got to know her it was my only interest. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. That is the point I was seeking to make. Did you +become better acquainted with the Oswalds thereafter? + +Mrs. PAINE. I met---- + +Mr. JENNER. Did you, first, yes or no? + +Mrs. PAINE. I became better acquainted with Marina. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, if members of the Commission--I am going to +pass from this initial event--if you have any questions you would like +to put to the witness now rather than my deferring it. + +Mr. McCLOY. Are there any questions? + +The CHAIRMAN. Not for me. + +Representative FORD. Not at this point. + +Senator COOPER. No. + +Mr. McCLOY. May I ask one? Did Oswald, Lee Oswald on this occasion +express any dislike for any elements or aspects of American society? + +Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall anything specific that was said. + +Mr. McCLOY. He did not indicate to this group why it was that he left +the United States to go to Russia originally? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is hard to say how I formed this opinion, but I gathered +that he disapproved of the economic system. + +Mr. McCLOY. Was there anything more specific than that that he referred +to? Did he refer, for example, to any dislike of individuals? + +Mrs. PAINE. Individuals? No; I am certain there was none. + +Mr. McCLOY. In government or out of government? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. McCLOY. Your impression was that he was motivated to go to the +Soviet Union because he didn't like the capitalist system? + +Mrs. PAINE. Right. + +Mr. McCLOY. And had an affinity for what might be called the Marxist +system, is that right? + +Mrs. PAINE. Right. + +Mr. McCLOY. That is all the questions that I have. + +Mr. JENNER. Along those lines, Mrs. Paine, did he make any remarks +with respect to workers in Russia as compared with the position, the +economic position of workers in America? Did he refer to workers as a +subject? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't remember. + +Mr. JENNER. I am trying to refresh your recollection. You said +economics, he thought that the economic situation was superior in +Russia. I wonder whether he related it to the ordinary worker rather +than the overall system. + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't remember. + +Representative FORD. How well did Marina speak English at the time you +made the first acquaintance or first contact? + +Mrs. PAINE. I was under the impression she spoke no English at all. + +Representative FORD. Did she appear to understand any English at that +time? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe she understood much of anything. + +Mr. JENNER. That was your definite impression? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you hear her speak any English words that evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. McCLOY. Senator Cooper? + +Senator COOPER. I believe you said a few minutes ago that you were +interested in knowing why Lee Oswald left the United States and went to +Russia. Did you say that? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I don't recall saying it. I suppose I was curious. + +Mr. McCLOY. I don't recall that she actually said that. She said it was +an interesting situation. + +Mrs. PAINE. It was unusual, I think I probably said. + +Mr. McCLOY. She used the word unusual. + +Mrs. PAINE. An unusual thing to do, certainly. + +Senator COOPER. I don't want to say that you said something you didn't, +but I got the impression that one of the reasons you were interested +in meeting this family was in fact that this man had left the United +States and gone to Russia. + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Senator COOPER. In some sense? + +Mrs. PAINE. Not in any sense whatever. + +Mr. McCLOY. As I recall it she did say that this was an unusual +situation, and that to some extent developed your interest. This is Mr. +Dulles, a member of the Commission. + +Senator COOPER. Maybe I could put it this way. Perhaps we could read +back and find out, but I thought that you intimated or indicated that +you were interested in the fact that this man had gone to Russia. + +Mrs. PAINE. Perhaps I can answer your question---- + +Senator COOPER. And it provoked your interest. + +Mrs. PAINE. I can answer it this way. I was interested at the party to +hear something of what he had to say. I was hopeful when I wrote and +inquired if I could see Marina where they lived; and knowing that he +would be at work, that I would try to go during the week when I would +have a chance simply to talk with her. + +Senator COOPER. That night he did say that he did not like the +capitalist system? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection. + +Senator COOPER. Were you interested, then, in finding out what it was +about it he didn't like? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Senator COOPER. In reference to his experience in Russia or for any +other reason? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Senator COOPER. You didn't inquire further to have him elaborate on his +reasons for not liking the capitalist system? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. Of course, it is a rather short space of time we are +talking about, perhaps 45 minutes or so or less. People were inquiring +of him. + +Mr. JENNER. But others did inquire on these subjects? + +Mrs. PAINE. For the most part the other people asked questions, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. On the subject that Senator Cooper has inquired about, is +that true? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Now perhaps to help your recollection a little bit on that, +was this roommate of whom you speak named Volkmar Schmidt? + +Mrs. PAINE. Volkmar sounds familiar. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall a couple by the name of Richard Pierce, or +a gentleman at least by the name of Richard Pierce who attended that +meeting? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that would be the other roommate, not a couple, he was +single, Richard Pierce. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there not present a Miss Betty MacDonald? + +Mrs. PAINE. Which I had completely forgotten about, yes; there was. + +Mr. JENNER. And you still are unable to recall the name of the other +couple? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am unable to. Betty MacDonald I do recall lives in the +same apartment building as this couple, and it is a long German sort of +name, I think. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you become acquainted with Mr. Glover through your +husband? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, you might say so. We both became interested in going +to madrigal sings at the same time. My interest in madrigals was +developed by Michael, but that was before we ever moved to Texas. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you teaching Russian at this time? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You were not? Had you done any teaching of Russian prior to +this occasion? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You subsequently did some teaching; have you done some +teaching of Russian? + +Mrs. PAINE. Just this past summer. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. I will get to that in due course. Did you do some +translating that evening for Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You did not? + +Mrs. PAINE. I spoke to her very little. I was embarrassed to. + +Mr. JENNER. Why was that? + +Mrs. PAINE. Because my Russian was so poor, and the De Mohrenschildts +could both do it all so much better. + +Mr. JENNER. Was Mr. Oswald's command of Russian very good, also? + +Mrs. PAINE. I didn't hear him speak Russian that night at all. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, is that so? + +Mrs. PAINE. He may have, but I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. He did no translating? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. For her, no. + +Mr. JENNER. For Marina. And on no occasion--he sat there and on none of +the occasions did he translate, but, rather, Mr. De Mohrenschildt did +the translating? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't even believe that was translating. They would +address themselves to her in a separate conversation from what was +going on from these three or four around him. + +Mr. JENNER. So that those who did not understand Russian got nothing +from it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Those who did not understand English got nothing from what +he was saying--is that what you mean, or do you mean the other way? + +Mr. JENNER. If no one interpreted her in English, translated for her. + +Mrs. PAINE. No one understood it; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Then whose who didn't understand Russian---- + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Did not understand what she was saying? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And that went on through the entire evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. You must understand she was not present for, I would say, +more than half of the evening. She was just with her child. + +Mr. JENNER. But while she was present. + +Mrs. PAINE. There was no translation done for her benefit. + +Mr. JENNER. Or for the benefit of anybody else who did not understand +Russian? + +Mrs. PAINE. The other way; no. It is a long time ago. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes. Was anything the subject that evening of Mrs. +Oswald's family background? Was that discussed? + +Mrs. PAINE. Of Marina's? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing. + +Mr. JENNER. It was not discussed at anytime during that evening, the +fact that she was in Russia, she had been educated as, and was, a +pharmacist? + +Mrs. PAINE. That might have been said. I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your reaction to the De Mohrenschildts that +evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. I had heard from Everett that they were interesting people, +that they had gone on a hiking tour through Mexico taking pictures +as they went. I learned or had known from Everett, also, in this one +telephone conversation, that he was a geologist, a free lancer. + +Mrs. De Mohrenschildt seemed somewhat protective toward Marina in the +sense of wanting her to understand what was--wanting to talk with her, +to include her. Mr. De Mohrenschildt talked about his past life some in +English. + +Mr. JENNER. His speaking of his past life was in English? + +Mrs. PAINE. Was in English. I recalled to him his first wife who was +also a Quaker. I remember he said that. + +Mr. JENNER. When was your next contact with either Marina Oswald or Lee +Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. I wrote a letter, a note to Marina at the address I had +been given, and got a note back saying, "We have moved. This is the new +address. Come in perhaps a week." From that time. She wanted to get the +house cleaned up before I came. + +Mr. JENNER. They lived in Dallas, did they not? + +Mrs. PAINE. That was in Dallas; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. On this February 22 occasion they were then living on Neely +Street in Dallas? + +Mrs. PAINE. I believe they moved just in that period that I had the +previous address, and as soon as I wrote, the first letter I got back +gave the Neely Street address. + +Mr. JENNER. You have recorded that, have you not, in your address book? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Which I will follow up in a moment. Do you have a copy of +the letter that you wrote to Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. That initial letter asking if I could come over? I +don't believe I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Not having---- + +Mrs. PAINE. I have her reply. + +Mr. JENNER. You do have a reply? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have her reply. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have it with you? + +Mrs. PAINE. She drew a map. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. May I have it, please? + +Mrs. PAINE. Do you want it right now? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. All right. Wait--no; perhaps I have it at the hotel. I +don't think it is here. I didn't think I would be before the Commission +today at all. + +Mr. JENNER. We will pass that. You can get it tonight. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I am certain I have it. + +Mr. DULLES. That was written in Russian, I assume. + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; in my letter to her, bad Russian. + +Mr. JENNER. As long as you have the letter I don't want you to attempt +to summarize it then, but you did write her a note in which you sought +to come see her. She responded advising you of a change of address. +There would be some delay, I gather, because she wished to get her home +in order, having just moved. And this exchange of letters took place +approximately when? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was early March some time. + +Mr. JENNER. 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think her letter is postmarked the 8th of March. + +Mr. JENNER. 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. After that exchange of letters, did you see Marina Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you go to her home or did she come to yours? + +Mrs. PAINE. I drove to her home. There would be no way for her to come. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you had another exchange of letters before you went to +her home? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe so. + +Mr. JENNER. You just waited a few days, guessed how long it would take +her to have her home in order, and you visited her, am I correct in my +summary? + +Mrs. PAINE. She suggested Tuesday, as I recall in her letter, but what +Tuesday I don't know. If it was written the 8th that would be Tuesday +the 12th. There is no notation on my calendar. + +Mr. JENNER. But you do have her response to your letter? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is what I have. + +Mr. JENNER. In the hotel. We will get that this evening. Was Mr. Oswald +home when you visited her? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. On the next occasion? + +Mrs. PAINE. He was not. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you make a description in your calendar with respect to +this visit? + +Mrs. PAINE. I judge not. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you find any in your calendar? + +Mrs. PAINE. With respect to this visit? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe so. + +Mr. JENNER. By the way, that calendar is all in your handwriting, isn't +it? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Exhibit No. 401 the +document that has been given that exhibit number. + +Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. + +(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission +Exhibit No. 401, was received in evidence.) + +Representative FORD. What time of day was this visit, Mrs. Paine? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was midmorning, up to lunchtime. She had hoped I could +stay through lunch but I wanted to get back so my children could have +naps. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there anybody at home to care for your children when +you made this visit? + +Mrs. PAINE. I took them. + +Mr. JENNER. Oh, you took them. + +Mrs. PAINE. Therefore, I wanted to get them home to take naps. + +Mr. JENNER. What is the driving time from your home in Irving---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Thirty-five to forty minutes. + +Mr. JENNER. To the Neely Street address of the Oswalds? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it--or was Mr. Oswald home? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Just Marina? And that visit--tell us about that visit, +please. + +Mrs. PAINE. I fear my recollection may meld one or two visits that +occurred in March. + +Mr. JENNER. It might be a good idea, then,--go ahead and tell us about +them in a melded form. + +Mrs. PAINE. All right. I recall we walked out to a nearby park. + +Mr. DULLES. In both cases? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am not sure. + +Mr. DULLES. You think so? + +Mrs. PAINE. Anyway, I recall walking to the park, and I think this was +the first visit, and we sat and talked. It was warm weather, March, in +Dallas. And the children played on the park equipment, and we talked, +and she told me that she was expecting a baby, and asked me not to talk +about it among the Russian community. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Had anything been said on that subject when you +first met Marina Oswald the night of February 22? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Nothing? This was your first notice of that? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And she told you not--would you repeat that, please? + +Mrs. PAINE. She told me that she was expecting a child. + +Mr. JENNER. She told you not to do what? + +Mrs. PAINE. Not to tell members of the Russian-speaking community in +Dallas. She preferred for it not to be publicly known, so to speak. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you in contact with the Russian-speaking community in +Dallas? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you say that to her on that occasion? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, it is a contact I could have had. It was reasonable +for her to assume I might be. + +Mr. JENNER. But you said nothing in response to that. Did you reassure +her? + +Mrs. PAINE. I just said I wouldn't talk about it, that it was up to her +to make such an announcement when she felt like it. + +Mr. McCLOY. May I ask a question at this point? + +You said Lee Oswald was not there. A little earlier in your testimony +you said you hoped he would not be there. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. McCLOY. Why did you say that? Was it because you took any dislike +to his being there or was it merely because you wanted exclusive +contact with Marina, or both? + +Mrs. PAINE. I certainly wanted to make the contact with Marina. She +had not appeared as a person at all at the party. I couldn't tell what +sort of person she was, and I felt meeting alone with her would make +an opportunity both to speak the language and to find out what sort of +person she was. + +Mr. McCLOY. Go on. Did you have any further motivation for that wish? +Did you take any dislike to him? + +Mrs. PAINE. Not an active dislike, but I didn't like him. I think we +can say that. + +Mr. JENNER. And you gathered that impression the evening of February 22? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is very hard to know whether I gathered it then or in +terms of things she told me then after we met, and I will outline them. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; we will get into those. + +Mrs. PAINE. I would say it was more formed later. + +Mr. JENNER. And in your responding to Mr. McCloy's question you were +attempting to transport yourself back to that particular occasion and +not be affected by the course of events that had taken place in the +meantime, am I correct about that? + +Mrs. PAINE. I tried to. + +Mr. JENNER. To the best of your ability. Tell us a little more, then, +to the extent you have a recollection what occurred and what was said +in the park on that occasion. + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I recall that we talked, and, as I said, it may be +the first visit or it may have been the first and the second melded +in my mind. She said that she was expecting a baby. She said that Lee +didn't want her to learn English. He was not encouraging her to learn +English or helping her with it, that he spoke only Russian to her and +to their baby June. And she told me--now, let me say that my calendar +does show a notation on the 20th of March, it says, "Marina" and I +judge I went again to see her at her home on that day, or brought her +to my house, I am not certain which. But I judge, also, that this was +the second visit. + +Mr. JENNER. I suggest that you might have melded these a moment ago. +Now I wish you would keep these apart for the moment. + +Mrs. PAINE. So far as I can. + +Mr. JENNER. And stick with the occasion in the park first and exhaust +your recollection. + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I was impressed, talking with her in the park, with +what I felt to be her need to have a friend. This was virtually our +first meeting, but she confided to me something that she didn't want +generally known among the Russian segment. + +Mr. JENNER. That was her pregnancy? + +Mrs. PAINE. Of Dallas. She inquired of me, a young woman, about birth +control methods, and she said that she felt--well, clearly this +pregnancy had surprised her, but she said that she didn't believe in +abortion, and didn't want to consider such a course. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you exhausted your recollection? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is all I recall; yes. + +I do not recall whether it was this time or the next time, it may well +have been the next time, that she told me that---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, please. + +Mrs. PAINE. All right, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. I would like to stick with this. When Mrs. Oswald, this is +your first visit, she related to you and said that her husband did not +wish her to acquire any command of the English language, what did you +say? Did you express yourself in some fashion as to why? Didn't that +seem curious to you? + +Mrs. PAINE. I likely said that---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. It is best you don't guess. + +Give us your best recollection. + +Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that she did most of the talking +because she could. My Russian was bad enough that if she talked I was +happy. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you feel any embarrassment because you were---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, a terrible embarrassment. + +Mr. JENNER. You did? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is a terrible impediment to talking and to friendship. + +Mr. JENNER. I wish you would elaborate on that because I am sure the +members of the Commission would like to have your mental reaction to +what you thought was your limited command of the Russian language and +whether it interfered with communication between you. + +Mrs. PAINE. It interfered very markedly. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate? + +Mrs. PAINE. I could think of many more things to say than I could think +of the words to use in order to say it in Russian. I want to keep +jumping ahead to illustrate this. But just it was very difficult for me +to communicate. + +I understand much more readily than I speak, so that I could understand +what she was saying to me easily, especially as she took care to see +that she used small words and made herself understood. + +But it was very difficult for me just to speak. I could not possibly +have reacted to her as I would to someone else in English, as I would +if she had been speaking English. + +Mr. DULLES. At this time you felt that she could not gain very much if +you talked to her in English? + +Mrs. PAINE. I was certain of that, yes. + +Mr. DULLES. But later she had improved, apparently? + +Mrs. PAINE. After the assassination, to my knowledge. + +Mr. DULLES. That was after the assassination? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I never knew her to speak English at all. + +Mr. DULLES. Or to understand? + +I wasn't speaking of just speaking, but about the comprehension of it. + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, she said to me in November that she has changed from +never listening to an English conversation to giving it some of her +attention because she is able to pick up some words. You know how if +you don't understand anything there is no point even---- + +Mr. DULLES. I personally got the impression when she was here that she +understood a good deal of English. + +Mrs. PAINE. I believe she does, yes. + +Mr. DULLES. But this time she did not have that facility at all? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you not think it was curious that her husband was +adverse to her acquiring some facility with the English language? + +Mrs. PAINE. I thought it was distinctly thoughtless on his part, even +cruel. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss it with her to the extent that you could in +your limited command of Russian? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think the easiest thing was to agree with what she was +saying about it, agree with what she was saying. + +Mr. JENNER. Which was what? + +Mrs. PAINE. Which is that this wasn't the way it should be and I +certainly agreed. + +Mr. JENNER. She complained, did she? + +Mrs. PAINE. She complained, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. Did she express an interest, then, in acquiring some +facility? + +Mrs. PAINE. Not against his wishes, no. She didn't express an interest. +In learning English through me, for instance. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. She showed no interest unlike the interest you had in +her helping you with Russian, she showed no interest at that moment in +learning from you some command of the English language? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Now you think the second occasion occurring in your +calendar entry there was possibly March 20? + +Mr. JENNER. And what is the entry? + +Mrs. PAINE. It says, "Marina". + +Mr. JENNER. And that is the only word? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is all it says. + +Mr. JENNER. In that square? + +Mrs. PAINE. Probably I went again to her home. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Does that refresh your recollection as to +anything on that occasion? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. It does not? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am guessing, again, that this was the second meeting. I +think I went to her home twice before I carried her from her place to +my home, which was considerably more of an event, since it was 35 or 40 +minutes each way, going twice in one day. + +Mr. JENNER. You say carry? + +Mrs. PAINE. Carry, that is a good Texas term for driving a person in a +car. + +Senator COOPER. I must say there, that is an old term even in Kentucky. +You take some person some place you carry them. + +Mrs. PAINE. You carry them; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. It is an odd expression to me. + +Mrs. PAINE. I have been in Texas longer than I think. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it then there were two occasions when you visited +her. + +Mrs. PAINE. I believe there were two down there, and then I asked her, +went to pick her up and brought her to my home and we spent a portion +of the day at my home, and I then took her back. + +Mr. JENNER. This was at your invitation? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; surely. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you by this time--let us take the March 20 affair, +occasion--had you some feeling of affinity or liking for Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. As a person? + +Mrs. PAINE. I did feel that she was in a difficult position from the +first I met her. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, chronologically, would you in your own words, so that +I don't suggest anything to you, what was the next occasion? + +The next time it was under circumstances in which you went to her home +in your station wagon, picked her up and brought her to your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was probably then that she mentioned to me that Lee +wanted her to go back to the Soviet Union, was asking her to go back. + +Mr. JENNER. He mentioned this subject as early as that, did he not? + +Mrs. PAINE. This was still in March. + +Mr. JENNER. She did? + +Mrs. PAINE. She did, yes; and said that she didn't want to go. + +Mr. JENNER. The Commission is interested in that. Would you please +relate it? + +Mrs. PAINE. She said she did not want to go back, that he asked her to +go back, told her, perhaps, to go back. + +Mr. JENNER. State just as accurately---- + +Mrs. PAINE. As she described it I felt---- + +Mr. JENNER. Just what she said now, please. + +Mrs. PAINE. He told her he wanted to send her back with June. + +Mr. JENNER. Alone? + +Mrs. PAINE. To the Soviet Union. As she described it, I judged that +meant---- + +Mr. JENNER. Please---- + +Mrs. PAINE. A divorce---- + +Mr. JENNER. Instead of saying as she described it tell us what she +said, if you can. + +Mrs. PAINE. She said that she had written to the Soviet Embassy to ask +about papers to go back, and received a reply from them saying, "Why do +you want to go back?" And she said she just didn't answer that letter +because she didn't want to go back, and that that was where the matter +stood at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. She had not answered the letter? + +Mrs. PAINE. The inquiry from the Embassy. She did not answer it. + +Mr. DULLES. Did she say whether or not she showed that answer from the +Soviet Embassy to her husband? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; she didn't say. + +Mr. JENNER. Did I understand you to say that Marina said to you that +she thought that meant a divorce? + +Mrs. PAINE. I will state again that she felt she was being sent back to +stay back, that he would stay here, that this amounted to the end of +the marriage for them, but not legally done. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. And did she express any opinion of opposition to +that? + +Mrs. PAINE. She particularly was opposed to going back. It was leaving +the United States that she was opposed to. + +Mr. JENNER. She wanted to stay here, did she? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; very much so. + +Mr. JENNER. I ask you this general question, then, Mrs. Paine: During +all of your contact with Marina Oswald, did she ever express any view +other than that one of wanting to remain in America? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; she did not. + +Mr. JENNER. What did she? Was she affirmative about it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Very. + +Mr. JENNER. Of wanting to stay in this country? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, what did you say when she related that her husband +wanted her to return to Russia, and she thought to remain in Russia. +Did it elicit some curiosity from you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Curiosity? It elicited anger at Lee that he would presume +to drop his responsibilities so preemptorily. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss it with her? + +Mrs. PAINE. I wrote a letter to her in an effort to gather my words. +I couldn't just discuss it with her. My language was not that good. +What I wanted to do was offer her an alternative to being sent back, +an economic alternative, and I thought for some time and thought over +a week about inviting her to live with me. I was alone with my two +children at the time, as an alternative to being sent back. If he +thought he couldn't support her or didn't care to or whatever reason he +had, I simply wanted to say there was an alternative to her going back, +that she could stay and live with me if she wanted to. I wrote such a +letter, really, to gather---- + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do. This letter was never sent. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that also at the hotel? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't know. It may be here. I can look if you want. This +letter was never sent and never mentioned to her. I wrote it so that +I would have the words before me to use if it seemed appropriate to +me to make the invitation, you see, a way of gathering enough of the +language, enough Russian, and to say what I wanted to say. And this +letter is dated the 7th of April. + +Mr. JENNER. The 7th of April? + +Mrs. PAINE. And I know I spent at least a week thinking about it. I +talked it over with Michael before I wrote it, and it is plainly marked +"never sent" on the letter. I carried it with me, as I recall I carried +it once to the apartment so that if---- + +Mr. JENNER. To what apartment? + +Mrs. PAINE. To their apartment on Neely Street, so that if it seemed +appropriate I could hand it to her, you see. I could make this +invitation at home with time and a dictionary in hand, and then let her +read it. It was ever so much easier than just trying to say it. + +Mr. McCLOY. Though you never delivered it, did you ever speak from it +to her? + +Mrs. PAINE. When she was staying with me the last few days of April and +the first week of May, I made, yes, a verbal invitation of that sort, +and in the April 7 letter, I have just gone over this correspondence or +I wouldn't recall what it said, but---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine. I think we can take the time to see +if you have the letter in your bag. + +Mrs. PAINE. I am sorry that I feel precipitated into a discussion +of this correspondence, and I would rather--no, it is not here--go +at it--there are several things I want to say about it. I began to +mention it to Mr. Jenner this morning and thought we would have a whole +afternoon to talk more. + +Mr. JENNER. We will have time tonight, Mrs. Paine. + +Mrs. PAINE. You will have time tonight? + +Mr. JENNER. I thought Mr. Redlich might look at the letter. I didn't +want to delay the Commission. You do have it at hand? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is not here. It is at the hotel. + +Mr. JENNER. I would like to return to something else for the moment, +then, first. + +What reasons did Marina give, if she gave any, as to why her husband +wished her to return to Russia? What did she say on that subject? + +Mrs. PAINE. She didn't say. + +Mr. JENNER. Nothing at all? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. No explanation? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. On that occasion? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. I meant by that last question to imply that there might +have been another occasion subsequently in which the subject was +discussed again in which she did state what Mr. Oswald's reasons were, +if any? + +Mrs. PAINE. She never stated any reasons. + +Mr. JENNER. Never? + +Mrs. PAINE. She implied that it was because he didn't want her. + +Mr. JENNER. He didn't what? + +Mrs. PAINE. Want her. + +Mr. JENNER. What is the date of this letter, April 7? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. McCLOY. We will take a brief recess. + +(Brief recess.) + +Mr. JENNER. Now, would you turn to your calendar, please. What is the +next day, date, in your calendar, in which you have an entry? + +Mrs. PAINE. Regarding the Oswalds? + +Mr. JENNER. Regarding the Oswalds. + +Mrs. PAINE. It is April 2, Tuesday. + +Mr. JENNER. What is the entry? + +Mrs. PAINE. "Marina and Lee dinner." + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I take it that by this time, that is, up to +April 2 you had had several visits with Marina and you had reached the +point at which you invited them to your home for dinner? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Now, Michael had never met either. By this time I had +talked to him. I had indeed invited them to stay indefinitely. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. And so I wanted him to meet them and invited them both to +come to dinner. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine, if I seem presumptuous. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. But you have stated several times, and now you state you +inquired of your husband as to whether you could invite Marina to stay +with you. Didn't you think that was a little presumptuous on your part +to invite a man's wife to come to live with you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, toward Lee it was presumptuous. + +Mr. JENNER. Beg pardon? + +Mrs. PAINE. Presumptuous in relation to Lee. + +Mr. JENNER. In relation to Lee? + +Mrs. PAINE. Indeed it is. Well, I will have to refer again to the +letter of April 7 where I said I didn't want to hurt Lee by such an +invitation, but that if they were unhappy, if their marital situation +was similar to mine, and this is not specifically in the letter, but if +he just did not want to live with her, that I would have offered this +as an alternative, really to both of them. I didn't want to get into a +position of competition with Lee for his wife. I thought about that, +and thought he might be very offended. + +Mr. JENNER. It is possible he might very well be. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it is possible he even might have been violent, but I +didn't think anything about that. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression of him up to this moment on +this score? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. As a man of temper? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Violence? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. None of that? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. I had met him once. + +Mr. JENNER. You invited the Oswalds to dinner on the evening of April 2? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What day of the week was that? + +Mrs. PAINE. Tuesday. + +Mr. JENNER. Did anything occur that evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, Michael picked them up. + +Mr. JENNER. Who did? + +Mrs. PAINE. Michael picked them up. + +Mr. JENNER. Your husband? + +Mrs. PAINE. At the Neely Street address. Has he talked about that? It +didn't come up? + +Mr. JENNER. I don't know. I haven't the slightest notion. I was talking +with you. + +Mrs. PAINE. Should I go ahead? I just want to get this first impression +into the record somewhere if he hasn't already. + +Representative FORD. I think it would be helpful if you gave your +impression of his impression. + +Mr. JENNER. Of his impression. + +Mrs. PAINE. All right. This I have learned since the assassination, he +didn't give me this impression as at the time we didn't talk that much. + +Mr. JENNER. Please, you are not giving us your impression of his +impression on this occasion, but rather your impression of what he said +to you after the assassination. + +Mrs. PAINE. You still want it? + +Representative FORD. I think it is important. + +Mr. DULLES. Let us hear it. + +Mrs. PAINE. He said--you must understand, that not living together +we talked together very little. I am sure he would have given me +his impression if we had been having dinner together the next day +afterwards, you see. He went over and Marina was not yet ready. He +thought that Lee was somewhat thoughtless. While doing absolutely +nothing to help her get ready, get the baby's things together, prepare +himself, he was quite impatient, thought she should be ready, and gave +orders while he himself sat down and talked to Michael, and Michael +carried the impression that Lee was somewhat thoughtless. + +Mr. DULLES. What did you do? That was about a half hour--what did you +do during that period? + +Mrs. PAINE. I was at the house preparing the dinner. + +Mr. DULLES. You were at home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. It has to be my impression of his impressions. I don't +recall the evening too well, the evening of the second. I do recall +we certainly had dinner together. I can't recall what the predominant +language was. Lee and Michael, of course, talked in English. Not +wanting to exclude her entirely from the conversation, I made +opportunity to talk with her in Russian after the meal was over. She +and I did the dishes and talked in Russian, and we were in the kitchen +while Michael was talking to Lee in English in the living room, so I do +not know what was said then between the two of them. + +Mr. JENNER. How did your husband get along with Lee Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, you probably have something on that. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your impression? I want your impression of how +your husband got along. + +Mrs. PAINE. Okay. He was initially very interested in learning what +sort of man this was who had taken such a dramatic and unusual step +to go to the Soviet Union and attempt to renounce his citizenship. +He thought here is a person that must have thought things out for +himself, a very individualistic person, not a follower of the masses, +and he wanted to hear what the ideology was that led Lee to this step. + +Michael has told me that he very soon felt that there wasn't much +ideology or thought, foundation. That Michael had thought he might be +able to learn from this man something and find at least good thinking +going on or inquiry, but he didn't find it. He rather found very rigid +adherence to a few principles such as the principle of the capitalist +exploiting the worker, and that this was a great moral failing of the +capitalistic society. Michael's own feeling was that Lee's view of +morality was very different from Michael's. + +Mr. JENNER. In what respect, Mrs. Paine? + +Mrs. PAINE. Michael recalls having--now, this is later. This is not +that evening. Did you expect it was? This is answering your question of +Michael's impression of Lee. + +Mr. JENNER. I wanted his initial impression. + +Mrs. PAINE. All initial impressions. Well, I have passed that. I have +gone considerably past it, in fact. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. How many times had you seen Marina up to this +moment, that is, up to April 2? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was two or three times besides the initial party in +February. + +Mr. JENNER. And your best recollection is that this was a nice, +pleasant evening, and that was about all? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your husband take the Oswald's home that evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. This is the second. When was the next occasion that you had +contact with either of the Oswalds? + +Mrs. PAINE. There is a notation of the eighth of April. I am looking on +my calendar, I have no other way of knowing, and one also on the tenth +which has an arrow going to the eleventh. + +Mr. JENNER. I would like to ask you a little bit about that before you +go into it. Would you describe for the Commission now the condition, +the physical condition, of your calendar there? + +Mrs. PAINE. Physical? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. There is a square, and in the square there is written +something. + +Mrs. PAINE. "Marina" is written this time in Russian. I am improving, +it seems. + +Mr. JENNER. In Russian. It is in the square dated April 10. + +Mrs. PAINE. I am talking now about the square on April 8. There is a +notation "Marina". + +Mr. JENNER. Is that all there is in that square? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is all that is in that square. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. Then the only thing that appears in the square for April 10 +is the name "Marina" in Russian, and an arrow pointing, an arrow from +it pointing, to April 11. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, go back, if you will, to April 8. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Does that refresh your recollection or stimulate you as to +whether you had any contact with Marina on that day or whether it was +prearranged and what the occasion was? + +Mrs. PAINE. Certainly, it says that there had been an arrangement to +get together. Whether we did I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. I thought you had read everything that appeared in that +square. Is there more than just the word "Marina" in the square? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. That is my recollection. But that refreshes your +recollection in turning that, that was a prearranged meeting? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, all of these were, since there was no way over the +telephone. + +Mr. JENNER. Is your recollection sufficiently refreshed to state +whether the meeting was a visit by you to her or she to you? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Does it have a relation to the letter that you say that you +prepared dated April 7, which is the day before? + +Mrs. PAINE. I might have taken it that day, I don't know. Yes; it is +entirely possible. I hadn't thought about it. + +Mr. JENNER. But anyhow my mentioning those two events together, does +that refresh your recollection or stimulate it more specifically on the +subject? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. It does not. You have no recollection beyond the fact that +on April 8 you have an entry with the word "Marina." Is that written in +Russian? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. The word "Marina" in Russian, it doesn't stimulate you in +any respect, does not stimulate your recollection? + +Representative FORD. At the time of the dinner at your home on April +2, following that or during that time, do you recollect any discussion +about General Walker between your husband and Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recollect any such discussion. + +Representative FORD. That night? + +Mrs. PAINE. If there was any it would have had to have been in the +living room while I was talking to Marina in Russian in the kitchen. I +didn't hear any reference to it. + +Representative FORD. You didn't hear any discussion that evening +between your husband and Lee Oswald about General Walker? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Representative FORD. Did your husband ever tell you subsequently of any +such discussion? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall it. There was one reference, but that was +later. + +Representative FORD. That was later. Do you recall when? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. It would be the Friday after U.N. Day, October the 4th. + +Representative FORD. That was October 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Representative FORD. And this was April 2d? + +Mrs. PAINE. 1963. + +Representative FORD. 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall any discussion of General Walker at all +with Marina or in the presence of Marina or with Lee Oswald or in his +presence in your home or their home or even out in the parkway on the +subject of General Walker up to April 11, 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Any discussion between yourself and your husband on that +day? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; none that I recall. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you subscribe to a newspaper? + +Mrs. PAINE. At that time I subscribed to the Irving local paper. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that an evening or a morning paper? + +Mrs. PAINE. At that time it was a morning paper. + +Mr. JENNER. Morning paper. Do you have a recollection of being aware in +the edition of April 11 of an attack on General Walker the night before? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is more likely that I heard it on television. I think I +must have heard it. + +Mr. JENNER. You have a television and a radio? + +Mrs. PAINE. We get news from the television. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were aware of the attack on General Walker the +evening of April 10. Did you see Marina Oswald on the 11th? + +Mrs. PAINE. I can only guess so judging from these marks on my calendar. + +Mr. JENNER. We would like your very best recollection, please, Mrs. +Paine? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall; I just don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. You just don't have any present recollection that you did +see her on the 11th or you didn't? You just have no--you are blank? + +Mrs. PAINE. I can only guess from the calendar, that is all. + +Mr. JENNER. Other than that entry you have no recollection whatsoever? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. DULLES. If you had seen her would it have been at her house, at her +apartment? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't even know that. + +Mr. DULLES. Wouldn't you have remembered four trips back and forth? + +Mrs. PAINE. I remember that I made such trips, but which day it is, it +is very difficult to know. + +Mr. DULLES. I see. But you think--have you had a recollection about +seeing her at this time, without pinpointing it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion between you and Marina on the +subject of the General Walker incident? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am trying to recall now when she first told me that Lee +was out of work. The next note I have of having seen them, and you must +understand this calendar by no means tells everything I have done or +would even be accurate about what I have done on account of what has +happened, but at some point she told me that he was out of work. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it some point near the time we are now discussing? + +Mrs. PAINE. Near the time we are now discussing. I am trying to get +some content in order to answer the question of what happened, did I +see her, what happened. The next date I have down for seeing her is a +picnic on the 20th of April. + +Mr. JENNER. Had she told you---- + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall it having been that long, but it probably +was, between the 11th and the picnic. It was before the picnic she told +that he was out of work and had been for a few days before he told her. + +Now, you probably know when he was out of work, but I don't, when he +lost his job. So I am judging that possibly this was mentioned on the +11th that he was out of work, because we did plan to have a picnic on +the 20th which included Lee, but it could have been even that day that +she told me that he was out of work and had been for some time. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any day on or about this time, the 10th or 11th +or 12th, within those 3 days, that you saw Marina, where your attention +was arrested by her being upset or disturbed? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. In any fashion? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, I notice in your calendar and entry April 16, "St. +Marks open again 12 noon." Is that the school your children attend? + +Mrs. PAINE. No, they are both preschool age. It must have been an +Easter--my children are preschool age. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the occasion of your making that entry? + +Mrs. PAINE. I probably wanted to visit the class. + +Mr. JENNER. What class? + +Mrs. PAINE. A language class. This is a school at which I subsequently +taught. Last summer I taught at St. Marks School. + +Mr. JENNER. You were visiting the class in advance of your teaching? + +Mrs. PAINE. So I probably wanted to visit--no, just any language class +there, and inquired, I judge, you see, you will find on Good Friday no +school, too, the 12th. So I was marking when the Easter vacation was +for St. Marks in order to make plans sometime later to go and visit. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Would you return to April 2, that dinner. Is +that entry "dinner at 8"? I couldn't quite figure out---- + +Mrs. PAINE. I believe that is the 7. + +Mr. JENNER. Seven. Was anything said that night about Lee Oswald's work? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing. + +Mr. JENNER. About his job? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I asked him how could I reach them if I had to call +off a get-together. I had no way of telephoning Marina. If the child +got sick how would I tell her I am not coming. So I said could I have +his telephone at work in order to reach them through him if I felt it +necessary some time, and he wrote down for me the address and telephone +number of the place where he worked. This was on the 2d of April. + +Mr. JENNER. And that, I will turn to that, if I might, and that will be +Commission Exhibit 402, and we have a like photograph of the exhibit. +Is all of that exhibit in your handwriting? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I have just said he wrote down Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall. + +Mr. JENNER. There is one entry that is in his handwriting? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Give us the letter page of that, will you? + +Mrs. PAINE. The letter page, "O" for Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. "O" for Oswald. The entry Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall was +written by Mr. Oswald; all other entries on that page are in your +handwriting; is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Are all other entries in the entire address book in your +handwriting? + +Mrs. PAINE. Did we go over it? What did I say? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, we did this morning. + +Mrs. PAINE. I would guess so. I don't recall. Did we say so this +morning? I will have to look it over again. + +Mr. JENNER. I am not permitted to testify, Mrs. Paine. + +Mrs. PAINE. All right. You want me to look right now? I usually write +the addresses down myself, so it would be quite unusual for someone +else to. + +Mr. JENNER. Is this address book in the same condition now as it was +when you gave it to the police? + +Mrs. PAINE. I did not give it to the police, they took it, and I didn't +know it was gone until later that day. It is in the same condition +except it has been through the finger-printing process. + +Mr. JENNER. I am particularly interested---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is all in my handwriting. + +Mr. JENNER. I am particularly interested in the entries on the page +lettered "O," and I want to especially ask you whether that page is in +the same condition now as it was when it was---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. + +Mr. DULLES. Could I ask the witness why there are certain lines half +horizontal, half perpendicular there, certain of these? + +Mrs. PAINE. It means it is an old address, no longer applicable. + +Mr. DULLES. I see. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Dulles, you were referring to the page lettered "O"? + +Mr. DULLES. That is correct; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I had digressed or interrupted at that point because you, +for the first time, made reference to an entry in your address book +made by Mr. Oswald. + +Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence the document identified as Exhibit +401. + +Mr. McCLOY. Where is that---- + +Mr. JENNER. 402 rather. That is the address book. + +Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. + +(Commission Exhibit No. 402 was received in evidence.) + +Mr. JENNER. And you were relating that you inquired as to how you could +reach them if you had to reach them, and Mr. Lee Oswald wrote---- + +Mrs. PAINE. His work, the name of the company and the telephone number. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it they did not have a telephone? + +Mrs. PAINE. They did not; no. + +Mr. JENNER. Did they ever have a telephone even when they were in New +Orleans? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; they did not. + +Mr. JENNER. When they came back again to Dallas, they did not? + +Mrs. PAINE. They did not. + +(At this point in the proceedings Senator Cooper left the Commission +hearing room.) + +Mr. JENNER. Now, was the April 2d occasion the second time that you had +seen Lee---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir. + +Mr. JENNER. Oswald? You had not seen him in the interim? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. When next did you see him? + +Mrs. PAINE. I next saw him on the 20th of April at a picnic at a park +near where they lived on Neely Street. + +Mr. JENNER. In between certainly the 2d of April and, possibly, in that +period from the 8th, 9th, 10th and 11th, let us take that period up, +until the time of the 20th, did you see Marina Oswald in between? + +Mrs. PAINE. Did you say between the 2d---- + +Mr. JENNER. Between the 8th and 10th through the 20th. + +Mrs. PAINE. I guess not; between the 11th or so and the 20th. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that your best recollection? + +Mrs. PAINE. So far as I know, no. + +Mr. JENNER. How did you communicate with her about the picnic? + +Mrs. PAINE. Probably by letter. + +Mr. JENNER. By a letter. Do you have that letter? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have--I don't know if I have it. I have a letter that +closes "October 20th" in my hand, a scratch note. + +Mr. JENNER. Could I look at that correspondence this evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. At the same time. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you. + +Then the next occasion was when you had the picnic on the 20th, is that +right? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I notice in that entry what looks to me like "Miss Mary +7:15." What is the significance of that? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is probably going out in the evening. It had no +relationship with the picnic at all. It has a relationship with a +dinner group which is at the time, you see the line "dinner group--7:15 +Miss Mary," who is a babysitter. + +Mr. JENNER. That entry has nothing to do with the Oswalds? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Without elaborating, please, Mrs. Paine, what would the +subjects of discussion between you and Marina and Mr. Oswald have been +at the picnic? + +Mrs. PAINE. At the picnic? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. He spent most of his time fishing. We saw almost nothing +of him and heard virtually nothing from him. I was impressed with his +unwillingness to be sociable really in this situation. He came to eat +when it was time to, and complained about the food. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he complain about the food? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was your husband present at this picnic? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; he was not. + +Mr. DULLES. Did you supply the food? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; Marina had cooked it. He complained about it. He caught +a fish, as I recall, and took it home to be cleaned. I hardly know who +would clean it. + +Representative FORD. Who did clean it? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't know. I left about that time. + +Mr. JENNER. What discussion occurred between you and Lee Oswald, if +any, with respect to his life in Russia on that occasion? + +Mrs. PAINE. None. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any conversation with him other than some +pleasantries? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe so. I can't even think of the pleasantry. + +Mr. DULLES. As I understand it, as you were sitting there, the picnic +took place in the park---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. What was he doing? + +Mrs. PAINE. He was way over at the lake fishing. + +Mr. DULLES. He was over fishing at the lake? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did any further discussion occur between you and Marina on +that occasion, or on any interim occasion, of Mr. Oswald's desire to +have her return to Russia or the fact that she did not wish the Russian +emigré group to know she was pregnant and was about to have a child? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically. I did feel that it wasn't a +particularly happy occasion. I don't recall it with lightness. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he out of work at that time or not? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he was out of work. I knew at that time he was out of +work. Whether I found out that morning or the previous time I had seen +her I don't recall. I only recall when she said he was out of work she +also said he had been out of work for a week or a few days before he +told her. + +Mr. JENNER. I would like to have you draw on your recollection as +closely as you can. Did you learn of his being out of work from him or +from Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. From her. + +Mr. JENNER. What did she say on that subject as to whether he was +discharged or whether he had left his employment, or did she say +anything in that area? + +Mrs. PAINE. I judged he had been discharged. + +Mr. JENNER. Give me your best recollection of what she said. + +Mrs. PAINE. Do you want something else? + +Mr. JENNER. Give me your best recollection of what she said, Mrs. Paine. + +Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall it that closely. + +Mr. JENNER. You next have an entry on April 24 reading "Lee and +Marina." Do you find it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that a meeting with Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife, +Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Where was that held? + +Mrs. PAINE. That was to be a visit at the apartment on Neely Street. + +Mr. JENNER. At their apartment? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did it take place? + +Mrs. PAINE. I arrived and found that he was packed to go to New Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. Was this a surprise to you? + +Mrs. PAINE. This was a distinct surprise. + +Mr. JENNER. Had there been some communication between you and the +Oswalds about your visiting them on the 24th of April? + +Mrs. PAINE. It had been arranged that I would come over to visit as +much as these other visits had been arranged, just with Marina to talk. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you had any visit with Marina between the 20th of April +and the 24th? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever? + +Mrs. PAINE. None. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you arranged on the 20th to visit on the 24th? + +Mrs. PAINE. Probably. + +Mr. JENNER. That is your best recollection? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What time of day did you arrive, or night? + +Mrs. PAINE. Mid-morning, perhaps around 10. + +Mr. JENNER. And then you found him packed or packing to leave? + +Mrs. PAINE. He was fully packed. I was evidently expected. I and my +car, because he asked if I could take these bags and duffel bags, +suitcases, to the bus station for him. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. Where he would buy a ticket to go to New Orleans, and he +said he had not been able to---- + +Mr. JENNER. What he said to you is what I am interested in. + +Mrs. PAINE. That he said---- + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. He said he had not been able to find work in Dallas, around +Dallas, and Marina suggested going to New Orleans, which is where he +had been born. + +Mr. DULLES. He said she had suggested? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. That is my best recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present now while he is relating this to you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I think so. + +Mr. JENNER. She was present. Was he speaking in Russian or in English? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think he must have been speaking in English when he asked +me to take the things to the bus station and explained that he was +going to look for work. + +Mr. JENNER. Your best recollection is that this was in English? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. It could well have been in Russian also. He +didn't like to speak English to me. He preferred to speak Russian. + +The CHAIRMAN. To you? + +Mrs. PAINE. To me; yes. + +Representative FORD. Did he ever indicate why? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. I think you said to me this morning, and please correct me +if my recollection is not good, that he always spoke to you in Russian. + +Mrs. PAINE. With, perhaps, a couple of rare exceptions, yes, he spoke +to me in Russian. When I tried to teach him to drive I tried to explain +to him, proceeded to explain to him in English. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, you tried to teach him to do what? + +Mrs. PAINE. To drive. This is later. + +Mr. JENNER. Drive, yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. But he would answer me in Russian, which is a way of +getting the person to go back to Russian. But I couldn't explain +driving in Russian, so I did it in English. + +Mr. JENNER. That incident, Mrs. Paine, is very important, and we will +get to that at a later stage as to your efforts to teach him to drive. + +Going back to this 24th of April, there was here, this was, a complete +surprise to you. You arrived at the home and this man was all packed to +go to New Orleans. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you had any discussion with Marina about her coming to +live with you of which she was aware prior to this occasion on April 24? + +Mrs. PAINE. I had discussed with her the possibility of her coming at +the time the baby was expected. + +Mr. JENNER. When was the baby expected? + +Mrs. PAINE. Mid-October. + +Mr. JENNER. But there had been no discussion up to April 24, to your +recollection, even about your inviting Marina to come to live with you? + +Mrs. PAINE. You mean on a more permanent basis, other than to stay when +the baby was due? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; which would be in the fall of the year. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. There was none. + +Mr. JENNER. There was no discussion about her coming to live with you +in the spring around about this time? + +Mrs. PAINE. I remember feeling when I arrived that they were, and +probably appropriately, making their own plans, and wondering whether I +should have already made this invitation, but I had not. + +Mr. JENNER. You say they were already making their own plans; are you +seeking to imply that they had some notion she might join you? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't think there was any notion. I am trying to say +I recall that I hadn't made that invitation at that time. + +Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection it is now that you had not +discussed the subject with Marina up to this occasion? + +Mrs. PAINE. Not the subject of staying on with me as an alternative to +going back to Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. Only staying with you in the fall? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. When the baby came? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you say, Mrs. Paine--excuse me. First, have you +exhausted your recollection of everything that Lee Oswald said on that +occasion when you arrived there? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you say? + +Mrs. PAINE. I said, yes, I would take his bags to the station if he +wanted me to. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mrs. PAINE. And we then did. + +Mr. JENNER. You just left? + +Mrs. PAINE. Take them to the bus station to be checked. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Marina accompany you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Marina went, and he checked the baggage. It was rather more +than he could have carried on the city bus, and I am sure he preferred +me to a taxi because I don't cost as much. + +Mr. JENNER. You didn't cost anything? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. And he then bought a ticket, he bought a +ticket for Marina, I mean I was thinking, while he was in the bus +station, and suggested that it would be a very difficult thing for a +pregnant woman with a small child to take a 12-hour, 13-hour bus trip +to New Orleans, and suggested that I drive her down with June. + +Mr. JENNER. You volunteered this? + +Mrs. PAINE. I volunteered this, and suggested further that instead of +her staying at her--at the apartment, as was planned at that time, +while waiting to hear from him, that she come and stay at my house +where he would reach us by phone, and where she would have someone else +with her while she waited to hear if he got work. + +Mr. JENNER. This was the conversation between you and Lee Harvey +Oswald? Was it in English or in Russian? + +Mrs. PAINE. Probably in Russian. I would think so, because I wanted her +to understand. + +Mr. JENNER. Was Marina along? + +Mrs. PAINE. She was present. + +Mr. JENNER. She was present; I see. + +Representative FORD. This took place where, in the car? + +Mrs. PAINE. Probably in the bus station--in the car near the bus +station. He then took the bus ticket back, returned it, and got the +money. + +The CHAIRMAN. Ticket for her? + +Mrs. PAINE. Ticket for her. + +Mr. DULLES. Her bus ticket? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and he left some money for her for buying things in +the next few days before she could join him. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he get on the bus then and depart? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; the bus left in the evening. We all drove back to the +apartment after he had checked the baggage, and he helped load the baby +things and things that Marina would need during the next few days into +my car, and we emptied what was left there of the things that were in +the apartment, and which belonged to them, and then drove, I drove with +Marina and June and my two children back to my house, and he stayed +at the apartment. He was scheduled to leave by bus, city bus, and an +interstate bus that evening. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it then, Mrs. Paine, that your impression was that +it was contemplated, when you arrived at the Oswalds that morning, that +Mrs. Oswald, Marina, and her child June, and her husband, Lee, were +contemplating going to New Orleans together that day? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Am I wrong? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is wrong. She was to have stayed in the apartment. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mrs. PAINE. And wait to hear from him. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. If they had been going together that would not have been +the hardship on her, but that traveling alone was, I felt. + +Representative FORD. Why did he buy the ticket for her at the---- + +Mrs. PAINE. To leave with her so that she could follow him when he +called, to leave the ticket in her hand as a means of her following +him. I haven't been clear. + +Mr. JENNER. It was a little indefinite. + +Mr. DULLES. I thought the ticket had been redeemed; then he bought +another ticket? + +Mrs. PAINE. He bought a ticket for himself and a ticket for her. + +Mr. DULLES. You said, "I will take her," and then he redeemed the +ticket for her, and gave her the cash? + +Mr. JENNER. Gave her some money? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +The CHAIRMAN. But the ticket that he did buy for her---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Was to have been left with her. + +The CHAIRMAN. Was for a subsequent date? + +Mrs. PAINE. For a subsequent date following. + +The CHAIRMAN. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is it. + +Mr. JENNER. That was clear to you on that occasion? + +Mrs. PAINE. That was clear. + +Mr. JENNER. She was scheduled to join him subsequently? + +Mrs. PAINE. She was scheduled to join him subsequently if he did find +work. If he found no work there would have been no point to her making +the trip. + +Mr. JENNER. Is this a discussion or is it your rationalization? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was clearly said she would stay. + +Mr. DULLES. I am puzzled. I am puzzled, Mr. Jenner, about this ticket +business. + +Mr. JENNER. I am, too. + +Mr. DULLES. A ticket was bought for her on the theory that she was +going with him first. + +Mr. McCLOY. No. + +Mr. DULLES. That is where I got off the track. He bought two tickets, +then why was the ticket redeemed? + +Mr. McCLOY. Because it was made clear by Mrs. Paine that she was going +to take Marina down in her own car. + +Mr. DULLES. But only going to stay with you during the period until he +got work, hence she wouldn't need a ticket. You were going to drive her +down? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You would drive her down all the way to New Orleans? + +Mrs. PAINE. In either case it was planned to delay going. + +Mr. DULLES. She would go down if he got work, but she would not need a +ticket if she stayed with you. Therefore, the ticket was redeemed. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But I did not think of this or suggest it until after +he had already bought the ticket. + +Representative FORD. May I ask this, Mrs. Paine? In the things that +were packed when you arrived, or things that were packed while you were +present---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Nothing was packed while I was present. It was already +packed. + +Representative FORD. Everything was already packed by the time you got +there? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Representative FORD. Were any of the things for Marina or Lee packed? + +Mrs. PAINE. They were all packed. I don't understand your question. +All of the things he wanted to take with him to the bus station were +already packed. + +Representative FORD. Well, in that group of things which were so +packed, were there things for Marina and Lee? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Representative FORD. I mean Marina and June, excuse me? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Some of their things were among those things, yes, I +judge so, clothing. The things that remained were a crib, playpen, baby +stroller, some dishes, some clothing. + +Representative FORD. The things you would not ordinarily take on a bus, +however. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it would be very difficult. That was another one of +the things that motivated me to suggest driving her down. I thought +sending these by train, with the risk of their getting strayed or--it +would be difficult, trying, for her to try to handle them, or convey +them with her by bus--that would have been worse. + +Representative FORD. But there were some things that were packed in the +things that Lee was going to take with him that would include things---- + +Mrs. PAINE. That belonged to---- + +Representative FORD. To--to Marina and to June? + +Mrs. PAINE. I would judge so simply by what remained. Surely it was not +the total sum of her clothing and June's clothing. + +Representative FORD. Which could lead a person to the conclusion that +at one stage of their discussion Marina was going to accompany Lee to +New Orleans. + +Mrs. PAINE. Not from the time I arrived. + +Representative FORD. From the station. + +Mrs. PAINE. It was clear she would stay up in the apartment. + +Mr. JENNER. Up to that time it appeared to you from what was in the +duffelbag---- + +Mrs. PAINE. I think he was carrying all he could to lighten her burden. +In other words, if and when she followed, he was carrying all he could. + +Mr. JENNER. Representative Ford is interested in this, Mrs. Paine---- + +Mr. DULLES. I am puzzled, too. + +Mr. JENNER. When you arrived at the Oswald apartment that morning, Lee +Oswald had duffelbags packed and some---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Suitcases. + +Mr. JENNER. Suitcases. He had in those suitcases and in the duffelbag +some of the apparel for Mrs.--Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. Of course, I did not see it. I have to guess what was in it. + +Mr. JENNER. But, from your knowledge of the household and afterwards, +this was at least your impression? + +Mrs. PAINE. That they must have included some of her things. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. Which, in turn, might lead to the inference that, +therefore, they contemplated at that moment from what he was taking +that Marina was ultimately to join him in New Orleans. + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; absolutely. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Was that your question? + +Representative FORD. Or even at one point in the process of packing, +she and June were going to accompany him to New Orleans on the bus. + +Mrs. PAINE. I didn't have that impression, no. No, he was going and +happened to stay with an aunt and uncle where he could live without +much charge. For her to come would have been quite a greater expense, +and a risky one without a job, nothing coming in, so he was hoping that +he could stay with the aunt and uncle while he looked, and then if he +got remunerative work, get an apartment and call her to come, too. + +Representative FORD. If that is so, and let us assume that is so---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Representative FORD. It puzzles me that he went into the bus station +and bought two tickets, one for himself and one for her. + +Mrs. PAINE. How would she get there? + +Representative FORD. Well, eventually she might have to go by bus. But +why should he at this time make an investment in a bus ticket when +there was no certainty---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes. + +Representative FORD. When she might follow? This is what puzzles me. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Well, I can only guess about this. I judge from his +having done this that he certainly intended for her to follow, and it +is also possible she couldn't have asked for a bus ticket herself. +If he had written her and said, "Don't come to New Orleans, come to +Nashville," and he had said, "That is where I have got my job," he +might have felt she would not know how to go and get such a bus ticket. + +Mr. DULLES. Is it also possible he may not have wanted to leave that +amount of money with her to buy a ticket and preferred to leave her a +ticket rather than cash? + +Mrs. PAINE. This is possible, this is possible. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Now, Mrs. Paine, in light of that speculation, tell us what discussion +there was on the subject. + +Mrs. PAINE. I think I have, that while he was in the bus station I +thought how difficult it would be for her to travel alone with the +baby, and all the things---- + +Mr. JENNER. And you raised that yourself for the first time at that +point? + +Mrs. PAINE. Then I said she might stay with me while waiting to hear +from him, and that I would drive her down if we did hear that he had +gotten work. + +Mr. JENNER. Had there been prior discussion that it was contemplated +that, if he obtained a position, she would join him in New Orleans, or +wherever he obtained a position. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. We had already talked about that at the apartment. + +Mr. JENNER. And that had been discussed with her present? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And discussed in Russian so that she could have understood +the discussion? + +Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, the staff is interested in Lee Harvey +Oswald's luggage. + +Mrs. PAINE. What? + +Mr. JENNER. His luggage. + +Mrs. PAINE. Luggage. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you please, to the best of your recollection, tell us +what pieces of luggage he had on that occasion, what they looked like, +their shape and form? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. He had two large marine duffelbags with his name on +them, and probably his Marine serial number. It was marked with a good +deal of white paint. It stood quite high. + +Mr. JENNER. Were they up-ended when you say high? You mean standing on +end, they were high? + +Mrs. PAINE. Standing on their end they would come well above this table. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. About 40 inches? + +Mrs. PAINE. Something like that; I would guess so. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, I am interested in just that. Would you go over +to the drawing board and move your hand, judge from the floor, and stop +right there? We will measure that later. + +Mrs. PAINE. Understand I saw those two later in my garage. + +Mr. JENNER. I understand, and I will get to that. That is just about 45 +inches, and there were two of them? + +Mrs. PAINE. There were two of them. Do you want anything about the rest +of the luggage? Does that interest you the most? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, I am interested, and I would like to stick with +the duffelbags for a moment. Was there any appearance as to either +duffelbag, which, to you, would indicate some long, slim, hard---- + +Mrs. PAINE. I assume them to be both full of clothes, very rounded. + +Mr. JENNER. I don't wish to be persistent, but was there anything that +you saw about the duffelbags that lead you at that time to even think +for an instant that there was anything long, slim and hard like a pole? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Or a gun, a rifle? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. No? Nothing? + +Mrs. PAINE. Nothing. I did not move these bags. + +Mr. JENNER. To the extent you saw them is all I am inquiring about. You +did not touch them, you did not lift them, but you saw them. + +Mrs. PAINE. I did. + +Mr. JENNER. There appeared--the entire circumference of these bags +which you could see was smooth? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, smooth, bumpy, but irregular. + +Mr. JENNER. But no stick, no hard surface. Now, what about the diameter +of these bags, these duffelbags, what would you say it was? + +Mrs. PAINE. About like this, 15, 18, 20 inches across. + +Mr. JENNER. Eighteen, twenty inches across? + +Mrs. PAINE. Probably more than that. + +Mr. JENNER. This is 15 inches. + +Mrs. PAINE. About like this; a little more than 15, probably. + +Mr. JENNER. About 18 inches. Now, how many pieces of luggage in +addition to the two duffelbags? + +Mrs. PAINE. Quite a few. There were probably three suitcases. + +Mr. JENNER. Three suitcases? + +Mrs. PAINE. Or more. A small radio bought in Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. I want to stick with the luggage. + +Mrs. PAINE. All right. + +Mr. JENNER. Three suitcases? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think so, two or three, and a large softsided suitcase, I +don't know what to call it. It zips around the side. + +Mr. JENNER. Zipper case? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, made of canvas. + +Mr. JENNER. We would like to have you describe that zipper case. + +Mrs. PAINE. It is green---- + +Mr. JENNER. I am interrupting you, I am sorry. Were there any other +pieces of luggage, first? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. So there were two or three or possibly four, is that true, +suitcases? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And there was a zipper case? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Describe this zipper case to us first. + +Mrs. PAINE. It stood about so high [indicating]. + +Mr. JENNER. So high is 15 inches, about 30 inches long? + +Mrs. PAINE. Not quite, about that long [indicating]. + +Mr. JENNER. It was a generous sized zipper case? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. With generally green canvas and leather, dark-colored +leather. + +Mr. JENNER. Black or brown--do you remember the color? + +Mrs. PAINE. Dark brown, I guess, or black, certainly very dark. + +Mr. JENNER. It was a generous sized one, was it not? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did it appear to be well packed? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you describe each of the three suitcases now, with +particular reference to the staff being interested in whether they were +rectangular, whether they were hard boarded types of things, or whether +they were canvas or soft? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't remember how many there were. I recall they had a +hard composition kind of suitcase such as you don't buy here, and I +judge they were bought in the Soviet Union. I think there may have been +two of those. + +Mr. JENNER. Was any one of them rectangular in shape? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. That was rectangular. + +Mr. JENNER. The one you specifically have in mind, he did have a +rectangular one? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And what color was it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Dark, blackish green, or dark brown, something of this +nature. + +Mr. JENNER. Anything else you can think about it in the way of +description? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think it had--it was reinforced, corners, with rivets, or +bolts, of something to hold it, hold the corners on it. + +Mr. DULLES. How long was this rectangular suitcase? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. In fact, I can't recall whether it was one +or two, but something like that, normal suitcases. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, may I have your permission to approach the +witness? + +Mr. McCLOY. And take the measurements? + +Mrs. PAINE. And take the measurements. + +Mr. McCLOY. The witness may be approached. + +Mrs. PAINE. That or larger, I would say. + +Mr. JENNER. You are now describing the length of the rectangular +suitcase, is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And that would be 21-1/2 inches? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. That is your best recollection? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am brief in my recollection, a normal rectangular shape +here. + +Mr. JENNER. Width, that is the side, you mean? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is the whole thing. That is looking at the top. How +high it is. + +Mr. JENNER. No; wide. + +Mrs. PAINE. I am filling it out. This would be the width then from here +to here, possibly more. + +Mr. JENNER. Fourteen inches? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am not sure I am recalling one or two at the same time. I +have to be under oath, and giving you details on things I don't recall +that well. + +Mr. JENNER. All we are seeking is your best recollection. + +Mrs. PAINE. All right, that is my best recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. Twenty-one and a half times fourteen, and how high was it? + +Mrs. PAINE. About so, 6, about 6. + +Mr. JENNER. I said high. Was this lying flat on its side when you saw +it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, all these things again I saw in the fall, so it is a +mixed recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. I am going to get as to what you saw in the fall, but it is +important to us as to what you saw on this occasion. + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I particularly recall the duffels because they are +unusual, and I recall this bag being, I judge Russian make rather than +American, it was a large zipper bag. + +Mr. JENNER. And Mrs. Paine, you do recall that zipper bag on this +occasion? + +Mrs. PAINE. I believe so. + +Mr. JENNER. And there was at least one, if not more than one, +rectangular---- + +Mrs. PAINE. I can't be certain of the zipper bag. + +Mr. JENNER. Hard-sided suitcase? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; hard-sided suitcase. I can't be certain, absolutely +certain, of the zipper bag. I recall seeing so much of it since, +tripped over it numerous times, that it may be just that I recalled it. +I didn't move this luggage at all. + +Mr. JENNER. I am not suggesting that you did. + +Mrs. PAINE. I am sorry I can't remember it better. + +Mr. JENNER. Were all of these suitcases about the same size and shape? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You have described the rectangular one. Would you now +describe the second, the second in order of your recollection? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, there was at least another rectangular one. + +Mr. JENNER. Hard-sided? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it larger or smaller than the one you have described? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall with certainty. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there a third? + +Mrs. PAINE. There may have been a third. I certainly recall this radio +that was unusual. The others I don't. + +Mr. JENNER. It is possible you might be confused between the radio case +and a suitcase. + +Mrs. PAINE. No, no; no possibility of that. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. He checked all these articles, checked them into +the bus station? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And did you and Lee and Marina return to their home? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you remain there? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. He then helped pack up the remaining things, the +playpen, the bed, and then we left there midafternoon, perhaps 4, all +of this must have taken quite a long time, because---- + +Mr. JENNER. They removed everything from their home? + +Mrs. PAINE. They removed everything that remained to them. + +Mr. JENNER. Put it in the station wagon? + +Mrs. PAINE. Put it in the station wagon and went with Lee and Marina. + +Mr. JENNER. Your station wagon was big enough to hold everything in the +house, is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, they had no furniture, but it held all the rest of +their things; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he do the packing? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What were you doing in the meantime? + +Mrs. PAINE. Packing was haphazard, this packing was haphazard; put the +dishes in a box and carried it out to the car. + +Mr. JENNER. It was in the open so you could see what went into your car? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think so. I certainly then repacked it to go to New +Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, I want to stick with this occasion, please. + +Mrs. PAINE. All right. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there a rifle packed in the back of the car? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. You didn't see any kind of weapon? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Firearm, rifle, pistol, or otherwise? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I saw nothing of that nature. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you drive them to your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Were the materials and things in your station wagon +unpacked and placed in your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; immediately. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see that being done, were you present? + +Mrs. PAINE. I helped do it; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you see any weapon on that occasion? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Whether a rifle, pistol or---- + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Or any covering, any package, that looked as though it +might have a weapon, pistol, or firearm? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Up to this moment, Mrs. Paine, had there been any +discussion with Marina or with Lee Harvey Oswald in connection with his +life in Russia with the use of a firearm or his right to use one in +Russia? + +Mrs. PAINE. I never heard him mention anything of this sort. Michael +told me later he mentioned it to Michael. + +Mr. McCLOY. State that, please. + +Mrs. PAINE. Michael told me later that Lee had complained in Michael's +hearing that they did not permit a private individual to have a gun, +but I didn't hear that when it was said. So there was no discussion at +any time that mentioned guns, nothing brought up by Marina or Lee. + +Mr. JENNER. I will broaden my question. Up to--now up to, and not +including, up to November 22, 1963, had there ever been any discussion +between you and Lee Harvey Oswald or between you and Marina or any +discussion in the presence of either of them by anybody, including +yourself, about the use of a firearm by Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Marina told me that he had been hunting in the Soviet +Union. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, please, to the best of your recollection when did that +occur? + +Mrs. PAINE. When did she tell me? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. It might have been as long ago as May, when she was first +staying at my house. She quoted a proverb to the effect that you go +hunting in the Soviet Union and you catch a bottle of vodka, so I judge +it was a social occasion more than shooting being the prime object. + +Mr. JENNER. That was in this period when she was living with you in the +spring of 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. It could have been there. It might have been in October, +but I would guess it was in May. + +Mr. JENNER. I wish you would elaborate on that. + +Mrs. PAINE. I wish I wouldn't guess, I know. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she say that Lee Harvey Oswald had some kind of a +firearm in Russia? + +Mrs. PAINE. That he had gone hunting with a group, in other words, in +Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the occasion---- + +Mrs. PAINE. And she quoted this proverb. + +Mr. JENNER. Can you remember the circumstance in which she made that +utterance? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Anything that provoked it or brought it about? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think she was probably recalling something of their life +in Russia. + +Mr. JENNER. In a discussion between you and Marina as to their life in +Russia? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Any other occasion in which a discussion occurred between +you and either of them or in their presence while you were present on +the subject of a firearm prior to November 22? + +Mrs. PAINE. On one occasion around the middle of November I said to +Marina that---- + +Mr. JENNER. Was Lee Harvey Oswald present? + +Mrs. PAINE. He was not present. + +Mr. JENNER. Just Marina and you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Just Marina and I. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it in your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I said to her that I did not want to buy toy guns for +my children, and that this view of things was shared with a German +friend of mine who had been a young girl at the time of the last World +War in Germany, and she didn't wish to buy guns for her children to +play with, and I said too few people think about this. She said nothing +in reply. + +Mr. JENNER. She didn't say anything at all in response to that. Does +that exhaust your recollection of all discussion of firearms? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it does. + +Mr. JENNER. That occurred in your presence? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Up to November 22, 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. Up to, that is right. + +Mr. McCLOY. There was no suggestion of Lee's using a firearm for +hunting purposes in the United States? + +Mrs. PAINE. None; nor that he might have had any gun. + +Mr. McCLOY. Nor that he might have had any gun. + +Mr. JENNER. After Marina's things and the baby's things had been placed +in your home then what occurred in the evening, was this late in the +day of the 24th? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was close to supper. I am sure we then ate and put our +children to bed, possibly talked a short time. I no doubt explained +to her quite soon that I was to go away for the weekend. Indeed, this +invitation was made quite on the spur of the moment. You don't normally +invite someone to come and stay with you when you are about to go away, +but I was to go to a folk-dance camp with Michael that weekend, and you +see on the calendar "FDC" which stands for folk-dance camp, arrow San +Antonio. That is the 26th, 27th and 28th. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; I noticed that. + +Mrs. PAINE. And I left her in the house with the telephone number of +my Russian tutor to call, and I believe they talked, in fact, before I +left. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us the name of your Russian tutor. + +Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question that we passed by? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. When you unloaded Marina's things and the baby's things, +did this subtract one suitcase from this number you have indicated? Was +one of the suitcases delegated to her things or were they just loose in +the car? + +Mrs. PAINE. Insofar as I remember, I believe they were loose. + +Mr. DULLES. They were loose. So that the number of suitcases you have +indicated were those that were eventually checked and taken by Lee +Harvey Oswald to New Orleans. + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, that is the way I remember it. It does not seem +reasonable that he would go off without leaving her a suitcase to put +her things in, so I would guess there was something for her in the +nature, perhaps, of a small bag. + +Mr. DULLES. So that one of these bags may have been unloaded at your +house? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. McCLOY. You testified, I believe, you started to testify, that +there was also a radio that had been presumably purchased in Russia. +Did he take that with him? + +Mrs. PAINE. He took that. + +Mr. McCLOY. He took that with him. He didn't return that to her. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, I don't want to speculate, but I thought you +had testified in response to my questions that the two or three pieces +of luggage, that is, the suitcases, plus the two duffel bags, plus the +zipper bag, plus the radio, had been checked into the bus station. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is right. + +Mr. JENNER. All of those pieces of luggage were actually checked in, +and when you left the bus station none of the pieces of luggage or the +radio or the duffel bags had been placed back in your car. + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall it, but it seems to me unreasonable---- + +Mr. JENNER. Now, please, I don't want you to rationalize. I want your +best recollection. + +Mrs. PAINE. I cannot recall. I mean the suitcases that came to my +house---- + +Mr. JENNER. You don't recall having taken one of the pieces of luggage +and placed that piece back in your station wagon? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no, no, that is definite. All that went to the bus +station. + +Mr. JENNER. Remained there. + +Mrs. PAINE. Remained there. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mr. DULLES. At what stage did they go to the bus station? Did you go +from their apartment to your house and then to the bus station or did +you go to the bus station first? + +Mrs. PAINE. Directly to the bus station. + +Mr. DULLES. And then went to your house? + +Mrs. PAINE. Directly to the bus station from their apartment, back to +their apartment and picked up the rest of the things. + +Mr. DULLES. I see. + +Mrs. PAINE. The baby things and her clothing and then went to my house. + +Mr. DULLES. I see. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, apart from your rationalization, do you have +the recollection that there was any luggage at all in the Oswald home +when you got back? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I have no such recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. So that in response to Mr. Dulles' questions when you +talked about the possibility of some luggage, you were rationalizing? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. You are not drawing on your recollection? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it your best recollection, in fact, is that there +was no luggage remaining at the Oswald home when you got back? + +Mrs. PAINE. There was nothing packed when we got back. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recall undertaking to pack anything when you got +back in order to remove what they had there remaining to your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. You mean was there a suitcase into which I could pack +anything? + +Mr. JENNER. That is it. + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you have related to us that you went away +for the weekend. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. With your husband. + +Mrs. PAINE. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you have an entry in your diary, and I quote it on the +24th of April, 1963: "Lee and Marina." + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that an entry made after the fact? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I judge that was---- + +Mr. JENNER. Now, please give me your best recollection. + +Mrs. PAINE. That was the plan to meet, knowing Lee was no longer +working; it was there for not only a meeting with Marina, but I +expected to see them both at the apartment. + +Mr. JENNER. So that is confined to the meeting you expected to have +with Lee and Marina that morning when you went there and, to your +surprise, you found that Mr. Oswald was all packed to go to New Orleans. + +Mrs. PAINE. All packed and looking for a cab; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. How long did Marina remain in your home on that occasion? + +Mrs. PAINE. She stayed then until May 9--well, excuse me, she stayed +until the 10th of May. + +Mr. JENNER. You have an entry, do you not, in your diary as to the May +9th or 10th. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Read it. + +Mrs. PAINE. It says now going over to the 11th "New Orleans." + +Mr. JENNER. And you have written across then "May 10 and May 11," is +that right? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. What does the "New Orleans" signify, please? + +Mrs. PAINE. Lee called on the evening of the 9th to say he had work. + +Mr. JENNER. You recall that? + +Mrs. PAINE. I recall that definitely. Marina says, "Papa naslubet," +"Father loves us," "Daddy loves us, he got work and he wanted us to +come." She was very elated. + +Mr. JENNER. This is Marina talking to you? + +Mrs. PAINE. I could see as she talked on the phone. + +Mr. JENNER. You overheard this conversation? + +Mrs. PAINE. Afterward. She said over and over, "Papa naslubet," "Daddy +loves us," "Daddy loves us." + +Mr. JENNER. She was elated? + +Mrs. PAINE. She was elated and, let's see, we tried to think when we +could leave, and first said over the phone that we would leave on the +morning of the 11th. But I thought it would be too long to do all this +in one day, and we accelerated our preparations and left midday on the +10th which got us to Shreveport. + +Mr. JENNER. Before we get into this, and I would like to cover this +interim period before any adjournment today; there was a 16-day period +now, approximately, maybe we will limit it to 15 days, that Marina +stayed with you in your home. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have conversations with her about her husband? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. About their life in Russia? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, even going so far as to wonder---- + +Mr. JENNER. During this 15-day period? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. We had such conversations. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you please relate to us your discussions with Marina +with respect to her husband Lee Harvey Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, she wondered if he did, in fact, love her. + +Mr. JENNER. What did she say? + +Mrs. PAINE. She said she supposed most couples had at some time +wondered about this. She wondered herself whether she loved him truly. +She talked some of her few months of dating that she had in Minsk, and +of living there. + +Mr. JENNER. That is before her marriage to Lee Harvey? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. At some point, and I want to tell you this, whether +it is appropriate or whether it happened later in October, I can't be +certain, but I think in May she told me that she had written a letter +to a previous boyfriend, and that this letter had come back because she +had put insufficient postage on it, and Lee had found it at the door +coming back through the mail, and had been very angry. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she go beyond that? + +Mrs. PAINE. She did not. To tell me what was in the letter, you mean? + +Mr. JENNER. I am not thinking so much within the letter. Did she go +beyond stating that he was merely only angry? Was there any discussion +about his having struck her? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; none. No; none. She never mentioned to me ever that Lee +had struck her. + +Mr. JENNER. And during all the visits you ever had with her, all the +tete-a-tetes, her living with you on this occasion we now describe as +15-1/2 days, and in the fall, was there any occasion when Marina Oswald +related to you any abuse, physical abuse, by her husband, Lee Harvey +Oswald, with respect to her? + +Mrs. PAINE. There was never any such occasion. + +Mr. JENNER. Never any such occasion. And in particular this incident? + +Mrs. PAINE. She related this incident, but it did not include anything +further than he had been very angry and hurt. + +Mr. JENNER. Up to this time, that is, the time she came to you on the +24th, had you ever seen any bruises---- + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I never saw her---- + +Mr. JENNER. On her person? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I never saw her bruised. + +Mr. JENNER. At no time that you have ever seen her or known her, have +you ever seen her bruised? + +Mrs. PAINE. At no time. + +Mr. JENNER. So that there has been no occasion when you have seen it, +or been led to believe, she had been subjected to any physical abuse by +her husband? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion during these 15 days of any +occasion when Marina had gone off to live with someone else? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. I think she told me that in the fall. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. As long as I have raised that, would you please give +us the time and the occasions and tell us what occurred? + +Mrs. PAINE. What she told me? + +Mr. JENNER. What she said. When was this? + +Mrs. PAINE. This probably was in October. She told me that the previous +year she had---- + +Mr. JENNER. 1962? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. She had in the fall, she had gone to a friend's home, +left Lee. She described his face as she left, as shocked and dismayed +and unbelieving. + +Mr. JENNER. Unbelieving? + +Mrs. PAINE. In a sense that she was truly walking out on him. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. Excuse me. Did she put it in those terms, that she was +leaving? + +Mrs. PAINE. She was leaving; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. She left him? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and went to stay with a friend. Then moved to the +home---- + +Mr. JENNER. Did she name the friend? + +Mrs. PAINE. She did not name the friend; no. The friend's name came up +in another connection, but I had no way of making the connection until +after I learned about this to whom she referred. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you now recall the name? + +Mrs. PAINE. She went to Katya Ford's. + +The CHAIRMAN. To the Fords? + +Mrs. PAINE. To Katya, being the friend, Mrs. Ford. + +The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Ford. + +Mrs. PAINE. And then moved. She did tell me this. She had moved on the +weekend to a different home. Then Lee came there, pleaded for her to +come back, promised that everything would be different. She went back +and she reported--as she reported it to me, things were no different. + +Mr. JENNER. Were not different? + +Mrs. PAINE. Were not different. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you undertake a discussion with her as to what the +things were that were disturbing her? + +Mrs. PAINE. That offended her that much? No; I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. That led her to leave her husband? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. There was no discussion of that? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. McCLOY. Did you ever witness any altercations? + +Mrs. PAINE. Indeed I saw them argue a good deal. + +Mr. McCLOY. Sharp arguments? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. But no violence of any kind? + +Mrs. PAINE. No physical violence. + +Mr. McCLOY. Any profanity? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am not sure I know Russian profanity. He was very curt +and told her to shut up quite a great deal. + +Mr. JENNER. In your presence? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. In the presence of others? + +Mrs. PAINE. Particularly in New Orleans the first time when we went +down, when I took her to New Orleans in May, he was very discourteous +to her, and they argued most of that weekend. I was very uncomfortable +in that situation, and he would tell her to shut up, tell her, "I said +it, and that is all the discussion on the subject." + +Representative FORD. What were the kinds of discussions that prompted +this? + +Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall that, and I have already had my brain +picked trying to, with other people trying to, to recall what was the +difficulty. I do recall feeling that the immediate things they were +talking about were insufficient reason for that much feeling being +passed back and forth, and I wondered if I wasn't adding to the strain +in the situation, and did my best to get back to Texas directly. But +the--well, I do recall one thing, yes--we arrived with a big load of +blackberries that we bought from a vendor along the street. + +Representative FORD. On the way down? + +Mrs. PAINE. On the way down, on the road, and ate them, and then, +he, one morning, started to make blackberry wine, and she bawled him +out for it, what a waste of good blackberries, and she said, "What +do you think you are doing? Ruining all this." And he proceeded, and +argued about it, but thought he should, you know, defend himself. On +this occasion she was making the attack in a sense and didn't think +he should do it this way, and then, so, under fire and attack, he +continued. But then the next day she observed that he had tossed it all +out and lost heart after the argument, and decided it wasn't---- + +Mr. DULLES. He tossed out the wine? + +Mrs. PAINE. He tossed it out; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You detected, then, irritability as between them. Is that a +fair statement? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is accurate. + +Mr. JENNER. And anger rose to the surface pretty easily? + +Mrs. PAINE. Very easily. + +Mr. JENNER. What was your impression? Of course he hadn't seen her then +for a couple of weeks. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us about it--when she came in. Did they embrace? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. We arrived at his uncle's in one section of New +Orleans, and had a very friendly half hour or so---- + +Mr. JENNER. Was he there? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he was there. He introduced her and little June, and +played with June, on his shoulders, perhaps. At any rate, he was very +glad to see the baby, and was congenial and outgoing. We talked with +the relatives for a short time. + +Then the uncle drove them to the apartment--I was following with my +children in my car--drove to the apartment he had rented, which was in +a different section of the city. And Lee showed her, of course, all +the virtues of the apartment that he had rented. He was pleased that +there was room enough, it was large enough that he could invite me to +stay, and the children, to spend the night there. And he pointed out +this little courtyard with grass, and fresh strawberries ready to pick, +where June could play. And a screened porch entryway. And quite a large +living room. And he was pleased with the furniture and how the landlady +had said this was early New Orleans style. And Marina was definitely +not as pleased as he had hoped. I think he felt--he wanted to please +her. This showed in him. + +Mr. JENNER. Tell us what she said. What led you to that conclusion? + +Mrs. PAINE. She said it is dark, and it is not very clean. She thought +the courtyard was nice, a grass spot where June could play, fenced in. +But there was very little ventilation. We immediately were aware there +were a lot of cockroaches. + +Mr. JENNER. Was she aware of this, and did she comment on that? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't know as anything was said. He was pretty busy +explaining. He was doing his best to get rid of them. But they didn't +subside. I remember noticing that he was tender and vulnerable at that +point, when she arrived. + +Mr. JENNER. He was tender? + +Mrs. PAINE. Hoping for--particularly vulnerable, hoping for approval +from her, which she didn't give. It wasn't a terribly nice apartment. +And she had been disappointed, because when we first arrived she +thought that the home we were going to was the apartment. + +Mr. JENNER. She thought the Murrets' home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. So when we came up to the Murrets' home, she said, +"This is lovely, how pleased I am." So that she was in--disappointed by +contrast with the apartment that she really had to live in. + +Representative FORD. She expressed this? + +Mrs. PAINE. She expressed her disappointment; yes; and didn't meet his +hopes to be pleased with it. + +Mr. DULLES. As compared with their previous place of residence, how was +the New Orleans apartment? It was bigger, I gather. + +Mrs. PAINE. It was larger. It was darker, less well ventilated. It +was on the first floor, the other was upstairs. I would say they were +comparable in cost and in attractiveness. + +Mr. JENNER. What about vermin? + +Mrs. PAINE. I didn't see any vermin at the first place. But then I +didn't spend the night there. + +Mr. JENNER. So the welcoming was cordial? + +Mrs. PAINE. The welcoming was cordial. + +Mr. JENNER. They seemed to have a fine relationship at that moment? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. But as the weekend progressed, and she saw the new +apartment, all the time you were there, you were aware of friction and +irritability? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Going back to the 15 days again, was there any discussion +during this period, again, on the subject of Mr.--of Lee Oswald wishing +Marina to return to Russia? + +Mrs. PAINE. I believe I made definite, but only verbal, an invitation +for her to stay on with me, past the time of the baby's birth, if she +wished to. + +Mr. JENNER. I take it--I will get into that. But I take it your answer +to my question first is yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, tell us what that discussion was. + +Mrs. PAINE. Well---- + +Mr. JENNER. And how it arose. + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, we still discussed the possibility of her coming back +to have the baby here--although by no means a definite--definitely +planned. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. I am a little confused. When you say coming back +to have the baby here---- + +Mrs. PAINE. It was assumed she would go to New Orleans when he called, +but we talked about the possibility of her coming back to Dallas. I +said she was still welcome to if she wants to, if it seems appropriate, +to come here to have the baby. + +Mr. DULLES. That was to your house, you mean? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; to stay at my house before, or especially right after +the baby's birth, where I could look after June while she was in the +hospital and later. June didn't take readily to strangers. She did +like me and was comfortable with me, so I felt she might want to have +someone she knew and got along with. + +Mr. JENNER. But in this connection, was there a discussion between +you and Marina Oswald subject to her husband wishing her to return to +Russia? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe she again said that he was after her to +return. + +Mr. JENNER. Well, then, on the whole, your answer to my question would +be no. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. As far as I recall, it came up only once in +our discussions prior to New Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. Which you have already related? + +Mrs. PAINE. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion during the 15-day period on the +subject of her acquiring greater facility with the English language? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And his attitude toward that? + +Mrs. PAINE. His attitude had already been discussed, and I don't +believe it was particularly discussed further. But she did indicate +that she was going to try to learn some anyway. + +Mr. JENNER. Despite that? + +Mrs. PAINE. I judged so. I asked if she had a book written in Russian +entitled "The Self Teacher in the English Language." She did not. +And I ordered it. And I think I gave it to her even then. I am quite +certain of that. This turned out to be not much help. At least she was +interested in trying to learn English. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion of the subject of it being +disclosed to the Russian emigré group that she was pregnant. + +Mrs. PAINE. No; she continued to ask me not to mention that. We did, +however, meet someone in the Russian emigré group in Fort Worth after +she had the first day put on maternity clothes--and so she was sorry +that that meeting had occurred. She judged now people would know. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Did anything else occur in the way of +discussions during that 15-day period on the subject of life in Russia, +his political philosophy, how they got along, his general disposition, +her reaction to America? + +Mrs. PAINE. She discussed her reaction to America. She was very +impressed with the variety of goods available in the stores. She +thought the quality was better here than in Russia. Then there was more +of that later in October. + +Mr. JENNER. I will get to that, in October. Have we pretty well +exhausted this 15-day interim period, then? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir. + +Representative FORD. Mr. Jenner, may I ask a question there? During +this 15-day period, did any individual, male or female, come and visit +you at your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. You mean particularly to see her? I am sure there are +people coming and going at my house. There must have been. For +instance, May 1, Mary--this is again Miss Mary referred to previously, +a babysitter, "8:15. War and Peace." Mary came and stayed with my +children, and Marina and June and I went to see War and Peace. Miss +Mary recalls that meeting. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that a play or the movie? + +Mrs. PAINE. This is the movie, War and Peace, in English. But, of +course, she knew the story, so she could enjoy seeing it. "Ed tennis +confirm." I went over to play tennis. On the fourth of May, Craig's +children--they came here. + +Representative FORD. Into your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Probably. + +Mr. JENNER. Who is Craig? + +Mrs. PAINE. Craig is this young German woman who didn't want to buy +guns for her children either, that I mentioned. And we exchanged +children often. + +Mr. JENNER. Does she speak Russian? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; German only, and English. And, mow the lawn, it says +on the third, but that is not me, it is a neighbor who mows the lawn. +And May 9 in the morning, "Ilse"--means Mrs. Craig again--kept my +children while I went at 8:10 to Saint Marks for an interview. So there +was a normal flow. And I told my immediate neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, who +figures later, that Marina was there over the weekend, that I wouldn't +be there, and introduced them, so Marina could go to Mrs. Roberts and +make signs or symbols if she had to get a message through to someone. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Roberts is your next door neighbor? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Then your response to Representative Ford's question is +that---- + +Mrs. PAINE. A normal flow to my house. + +Mr. JENNER. But there wasn't anybody that came specifically to see her +from the Russian emigré group, is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Representative FORD. Were there any telephone calls to her from anybody +of this group, or any other group? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. I made the contact for her with my tutor, got her to +call. But that is all. + +Mr. DULLES. She probably could not operate the telephone. + +Mrs. PAINE. She could. That was the first I knew. I wasn't certain. But +she knew how to operate the telephone. + +Mr. JENNER. I am pleased you raised that, sir. She could dial. Did you +have the dial system in effect at that time? + +Mrs. PAINE. Way out in Irving; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And she could dial the number if she wished? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she knew how to do that. + +Mr. McCLOY. Did you at any time get any evidence to indicate that she +was in touch with any Soviet officials at all, the consul general? Did +she ever talk of going to the Soviet Embassy or the Soviet Consulate in +regard to her problems? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. The only thing ever mentioned was this that I have +already mentioned for the record--that she had written to the Soviet +Embassy inquiring about papers to go back. + +Mr. McCLOY. Did you think she did that on her own initiative? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; because he was insisting. + +Mr. DULLES. We have a copy of that letter, have we not? + +Mr. McCLOY. Did she ever tell you why she didn't want to return to the +Soviet Union? + +Mrs. PAINE. She said she liked America better. + +Mr. McCLOY. And she rather liked the conditions here better than she +had experienced them in the Soviet Union? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. McCLOY. And that you think was her fundamental motivation for +staying here? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. McCLOY. Wanting to stay here? When you were in contact with her at +all did any--when she was staying with you, was there any unidentified +characters or people that called to see her? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; there was no one at all that called to see her. + +Mr. JENNER. Were there any telephone calls received during that period +when you answered the phone that someone asked for Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. Only that from Lee on the night. + +Mr. JENNER. Only from Lee? + +Mrs. PAINE. Only from Lee. + +Mr. JENNER. No other calls to her? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And no other callers--that is persons who came to your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. None. + +Mr. McCLOY. What was the name of these--De Mohrenschildts. Did they +communicate with her when she was with you? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; my impression is they were already out of the country. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any mail received or delivered to your home +during this period for her? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't think so. It is possible that Lee wrote once. I +think it is more likely she wrote him. + +Mr. JENNER. In the household goods and paraphernalia transferred to +your house, were there any books, pamphlets, literature? + +Mrs. PAINE. I didn't see any. + +Mr. JENNER. You did not see any? + +Mrs. PAINE. I did not. + +Mr. McCLOY. Did you ever engage in any discussion or dialectics with +Lee about the respective merits of the capitalist system or the Soviet +system? Did you engage in any debates with him on political philosophy? + +Mrs. PAINE. I once listened to such a debate between Lee and my +husband, in October. + +Mr. DULLES. You kept out of the debate? + +Mrs. PAINE. I tried hard. I felt it was not going anywhere, and that +he was not a man that could be approached by logic, and that there was +no point to arguing with him. I disagreed with him quite strongly, +and I didn't see how it would help in any way to say so, or to try to +change--certainly it would not have helped to try to change his views. +He, for instance, was of the opinion that all churches were an arm of +the state, intent upon blinding the people. I thought his thinking +was extremely erroneous, and not open to introduction of other facts, +anything contradictory to his own view. + +Mr. McCLOY. Did he become intemperate in argument? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not. + +Mr. McCLOY. But in the course of his discussions with your husband, did +he assert adherence to the element of violence as a factor---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Michael tells me he did. I didn't hear that particular +discussion. + +Representative FORD. In response to Mr. McCloy, you told of this +argument that your husband and Lee Oswald had. You said it was October. +This is October 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. McCLOY. Do you have any more questions? We are going to resume in +the morning at 9 o'clock. + +The CHAIRMAN. Will you be here? + +Mr. McCLOY. Yes; I will be here. + +The CHAIRMAN. Then you continue to preside throughout her testimony. I +will be here, though. + +Mr. DULLES. I have no questions. + +Mr. McCLOY. Do you want to close? + +Mr. JENNER. I would just as soon adjourn now, if it suits your +convenience. + +Mr. McCLOY. All right. We will excuse you. Thank you for your +cooperation. + +(Whereupon, at 5:20 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +_Thursday, March 19, 1964_ + +TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED + +The President's Commission met at 9:05 a.m. on March 19, 1964, at 200 +Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. + +Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman +Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, John +J. McCloy, and Allen W. Dulles, members. + +Also present were Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel; and Wesley +J. Liebeler, assistant counsel. + + +Mr. McCLOY. Mrs. Paine, I must remind you that you are still under +affirmation. We don't take a new affirmation with each hearing. + +Mr. JENNER. We had concluded, if you recall, the 15-day period in May +that Mrs. Oswald resided at the home of Mrs. Paine. + +Would you please describe for us the items of household furniture, or +whatever the articles were, that were packed in your station wagon when +you took Mrs. Oswald to New Orleans? + +Mrs. PAINE. We packed in a play pen and crib. I recall a stroller, some +kitchen utensils, and personal clothing for herself and the baby. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any luggage of any character? + +Mrs. PAINE. There may have been a small suitcase but I don't recall it +specifically. + +Mr. JENNER. You do not? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am just guessing. + +Mr. JENNER. As I recall you have told us yesterday that when you +arrived in New Orleans, you went by the Murrets' home first? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And then from the Murrets' home to the apartment at, what +was that address on Magazine Street? + +Mrs. PAINE. 4907. + +Mr. JENNER. That was 4907 rather than 4905. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, there has been a touch of testimony, at least +of the possibility that Mr. Oswald may have dry-fired or dry-sighted +any rifle in the courtyard or garden space at 4907? + +Would you be good enough to draw for us free hand the layout, at least +the ground layout of the 4907 premises on Magazine Street in New +Orleans? + +Mrs. PAINE. Now, shall I describe this? + +Mr. JENNER. Could I first show the diagram. I have marked the diagram +the witness has drawn as Commission Exhibit No. 403. + +(The diagram referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 403 for +identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, might it be helpful and permissible if I had +the witness stand to your rear and point to the diagram so that you +might follow her testimony? + +Mr. McCLOY. Very well. + +Mrs. PAINE. This street is Magazine Street; it is a corner house. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine, left on your plot is east and west +and up and down are north and south? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is the way I recall it. This is a corner house +and there was room enough---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, I have to keep the record. You are referring now +to a square on the right-hand margin of your outline. + +Mrs. PAINE. Between this house, and the courtyard and house where the +Oswalds were staying, there was room enough to drive a car. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you marked the courtyard with that word? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you have written "courtyard" in the sort of an "L" +shaped space that you have indicated on the plot, is that right? + +Mrs. PAINE. This is a square space cut by a walk. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mrs. PAINE. This was a low fence. + +Mr. JENNER. When you say this, it does not help us on the record; what +is this to which you have pointed--you have written something across it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Around this courtyard and in front of the house was a low +metal picket fence. + +Mr. JENNER. That you have so designated? + +Mrs. PAINE. Correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you. + +Mrs. PAINE. There was grass within this small courtyard or walk, +steps---- + +Mr. JENNER. Which you have also marked "walk"? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Steps going up. + +Mr. JENNER. Which you have likewise so marked? + +Mrs. PAINE. To a screened porch. + +Mr. JENNER. Likewise so marked? + +Mrs. PAINE. And then the doorway from the porch goes into the living +room. + +Mr. JENNER. And the living room is marked "Living room." Would you use +those names and those designations as you testify? + +Mrs. PAINE. All right. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please indicate the courtyard or square or +oblong portion you have marked, rectangular portion, that was open +space, was it, it was not roofed? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was fully open. + +Mr. JENNER. It was fully open, and it faced out on Magazine Street? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. And was there open space to the east, that would be toward +the building, which you have merely designated as an empty square? + +Mrs. PAINE. I will write in here "driveway;" this was open here as a +driveway. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, is that what you have now marked a building, a +dwelling? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was a dwelling. + +Mr. JENNER. Were there dwellings to the south of Magazine Street and on +the opposite side of the street? + +Mrs. PAINE. That so far as I recall, that is my best recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. What was to the east in the way of dwellings or buildings? + +Mrs. PAINE. The rest of the house; they lived in a portion; entered +from the side door of a large house; I assume it was once a one-family +dwelling. + +Mr. JENNER. Then for our purpose here as far as the courtyard is +concerned on the east it was--there was a walk? + +Mrs. PAINE. A building. + +Mr. JENNER. West, I am sorry. On the west line of the courtyard there +was a walk? + +Mrs. PAINE. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. On the north of the courtyard there was the screened porch +and to the east, but with intervening driveway there was a dwelling +house? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Then the courtyard was open on Magazine Street? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Does your recollection serve you that anybody standing in +the courtyard and dry-sighting a rifle would be visible to people who +just happened by, or who would be looking out a window on the south +side of Magazine Street, or in the home or in the dwelling house to the +east of the courtyard? + +Mrs. PAINE. He would have been very visible. Would have collected a +clutch of small boys. + +Mr. JENNER. This was a neighborhood, then, in which there were small +children? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it a reasonably busy street? + +Mrs. PAINE. Very busy street. + +Mr. JENNER. What were the days of the week that you were there when you +returned, when you brought Mrs. Oswald to New Orleans? + +Mrs. PAINE. When we first went down, we arrived on Saturday, I was +there Sunday and Monday and left Tuesday morning. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Does your recollection serve so that you can state that the days +you were there you observed during the daytime, at least many or a +reasonable number of small children and mothers and fathers, in and +about the neighborhood? + +Mrs. PAINE. A good many small children and adults. + +Mr. JENNER. Was that likewise true when you returned in September about +which you will testify in a few moments? + +Mrs. PAINE. That was certainly true in September. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. +403, a plot which Mrs. Paine has just drawn and which is so marked. + +Mr. McCLOY. So received. + +(The diagram referred to heretofore, marked Commission Exhibit No. 403 +for identification, was received in evidence.) + +(At this point, Mr. Dulles entered the hearing room.) + +Mr. JENNER. Was the dwelling in which the Oswalds were residing, 4907 +Magazine Street, a single level or a double level house? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was all on the ground floor. + +Mr. JENNER. It was a one-story house, one story high? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was a segment of a house that probably had two stories +to it. I don't recall. But the segment they had was all on one level. + +Mr. JENNER. And that was the ground level? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to Exhibit No. 403, and Mr. +Dulles, would you favor me by handing her the exhibit, and with +particular reference to the screen porch, the screen porch likewise +opened up on Magazine Street, did it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, it was set back a short space from the street, but +the door opened up toward Magazine. + +Mr. JENNER. The screened portion, that is, that faced on Magazine +Street? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. If anyone were on the screen porch, let us say, +dry-sighting a rifle or some other firearm, would he be, would that +person be observable from Magazine Street, and from the east? + +Mrs. PAINE. I doubt he would have been noticed from Magazine Street. A +small boy passing in the driveway could have looked through the screen, +up to the---- + +Mr. JENNER. That is to the east? + +Mrs. PAINE. I will mark "screen" on the south and east side so you know +it is screened on both sides. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall for certainty but there may have been a kind +of shade that could have been put down. It was not when I was there, +down, but there may have been some means of---- + +Mr. JENNER. Lattice shade? + +Mrs. PAINE. Putting down a lattice blind. + +Mr. JENNER. A blind or something? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Of course, if the blind were down no one could see it. Did +you have occasion when you were there, Mrs. Paine, on either of your +two trips to be on the screen porch? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And looking out? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And was there any impediment to your view? + +Mrs. PAINE. No, I could see the street very well. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion there on either of those occasions to +be out in the courtyard or on the street to be looking into the porch +area. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. Could you see the persons, from the courtyard, could you +see persons behind the screen? + +Mrs. PAINE. From the courtyard you could see persons behind the screen. + +Mr. JENNER. Do I take it then by your emphasis on courtyard, do you +mean by that if you were on Magazine Street itself, that is the +sidewalk in front of the home it would be difficult to see in? + +Mrs. PAINE. Looking directly in you would notice someone but just +passing by you would not have been apt to see them. + +Mr. JENNER. But if you looked directly you could see in on the porch? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think so; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You mentioned yesterday a series of letters and +correspondence and you spent some time with me last night and we went +over all that, do you recall? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you have your summary we worked with last night at hand +to assist you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you mind taking that out, please? + +You mentioned yesterday in your testimony a note that you had sent +to Marina Oswald shortly after your initial acquaintance with her in +February of 1963. Did you receive a response to that note? + +Mrs. PAINE. I did; and I have that response. + +Mr. JENNER. I have here a document which we will mark as Commission +Exhibit No. 404, including its envelope as 404A. + +Is that the document or note you received from Mrs. Oswald and the +envelope? + +(The document and envelope referred to were marked Commission Exhibits +Nos. 404 and 404A, respectively, for identification.) + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. Did that reach you in the ordinary course of its posting by +mail? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with the handwriting of Marina Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am now. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that--do you identify the handwriting in that document +404? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is her handwriting. + +Mr. JENNER. That is hers. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And is it in the same condition now as it was when you +received it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. And that is her response to your note? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence as Exhibit No. 404 the document now so +marked. + +Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. + +(The letter and envelope referred to, heretofore marked for +identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 404 and 404-A, were received +in evidence.) + +Mr. JENNER. Now, that is in what language? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is in Russian. Except for the address on the outside. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Have you made a translation of that note? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have. + +Mr. JENNER. And is it the translation on the notes that you exhibited +to me last night which we have marked as No. 1? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is. + +Mr. JENNER. May I inquire, Mr. Chairman, if you would prefer that I +read the translation in evidence or may we have it---- + +Mr. McCLOY. It is a short note? + +Mr. JENNER. It is a short note. Others are a little longer, however, +and if I have your permission, to save you time, I would read that into +the record during the noon recess or something of that character. + +Mr. McCLOY. Very well. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that acceptable. + +Now, did you thereafter--you wrote Mrs. Oswald at or about that time in +response to that note of yours, did you not? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. Let's see--I don't recall whether I did or not or +whether I arrived on the Tuesday that she had suggested. + +Mr. JENNER. I have a little difficulty in handling these, Mr. Chairman, +because they are in Russian, and I don't immediately have a vision of +it. + +(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) + +Mr. JENNER. I am handing you a document which I have numbered as No. 2. + +Would you locate that for me on your summary? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have it. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that the second page? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. That note also in Russian but in whose handwriting? + +Mrs. PAINE. In my handwriting. + +Mr. JENNER. And that is a draft, I take it, of a letter or note that +you transmitted to Mrs. Oswald. + +Would you identify in your sheaf of notes the point at which you made a +translation of that note? + +Mrs. PAINE. When did I make a translation of it? I didn't understand +your question. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you point out in your notes the translation of the +document? Is that the center of the page on page 2? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is the document which I will have marked as Commission +Exhibit No. 405 in your handwriting? + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 405 for +identification.) + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it in the same condition now as it was when you +completed it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; being, of course, a rough draft of what I sent and not +what I sent. + +Mr. JENNER. You do not have the original of that because you sent it to +Marina Oswald, is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. But it does represent your present best recollection of the +note as you transmitted it to her? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. This note is without a date. Shall I give my +recollection of when I think it was written? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; please. + +Mrs. PAINE. I think it was written in March and referred to--it closes, +"Until the 20th." I believe that referred to Wednesday, March 20, which +is what appears here with the name Marina. + +Mr. JENNER. Which is what you testified to yesterday, and when you say +"appears here" you meant Exhibit 401? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence the original document which has now +been identified as Commission Exhibit No. 405. + +Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. + +(The document referred to heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 405 +for identification, was received in evidence.) + +Mr. JENNER. I will read the translation in the record during the noon +recess. You shortly transmitted another letter of your own to Mrs. +Oswald, did you not? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And I have here a document which I have marked Commission +Exhibit No. 406. Is this a draft of the letter in your handwriting? + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 406 for +identification.) + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. And did you shortly after the completion of that draft +retranscribe it and transmit the letter to Marina Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you made a translation of that letter? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. + +Mr. JENNER. Is the draft of that document in the same condition now as +it was when you completed it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Where is that document transcribed on your notes? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is at the top of page 2. + +Mr. JENNER. That is what we call No. 3, is it not? + +Mrs. PAINE. And dated March 26. + +Mr. JENNER. This, Mr. Chairman, is her note to which she testified +yesterday was an invitation to the Oswalds to dinner at her home on +April 2. + +Mrs. PAINE. It appears--the following invitation is a full explanation +of it. I believe I had made the explanation in person. This letter was +to say that Michael would come and pick them up. + +Mr. JENNER. This was confirmation of your original invitation? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; this was that Michael could pick them up. + +Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence a document marked Commission Exhibit +No. 406. + +Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. + +(The document referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 406 +for identification, was received in evidence.) + +Mr. JENNER. Did you receive from Marina herself a note with respect to +your invitation to have her and her husband join you? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have a note which I take to be a reply to that +invitation, saying that that date, Tuesday, would be fine. + +Mr. JENNER. And I hand you Commission Document No. 407. + +Is that the note you received from Marina Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 407 for +identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. Have you made--is it in the same condition now as it was +when you received it? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have no envelope anymore. I don't know what happened to +it. + +Mr. JENNER. Is the note itself in the same condition as it was at the +time you received it? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. I have written on it in my hand to help me understand +the meaning of it, some pen notations, translation of the Russian words. + +Mr. JENNER. I am interested in that, Mrs. Paine. + +Did you also--are there some additions in your handwriting on the first +page of the note? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, marked one, two, three, four and clearly taken from a +dictionary. + +Mr. JENNER. Why did you do that? + +Mrs. PAINE. To explain to myself the meaning of these particular words. +I had to look them up. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it a fair statement, Mrs. Paine, that your command +of the Russian language was not facile enough for you to read the +total letter freehand, as soon as you received it, but you wrote +on the letter definitions of words and of phrases to assist you in +interpreting it? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is a fair statement. + +Mr. JENNER. Were all the notations you have now identified placed by +you on that letter shortly after you received it, or in the course of +your effort to interpret it? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, save for those additions of yours, is the document in +the same condition now as it was when you received it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And is it otherwise in the same condition as it was when +you placed those notes on it? + +In other words, there have been no notes of your own placed on the +document subsequent to, at, or about the time you received it when you +were attempting to interpret it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, you first said, or when I was translating it. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. I translated it immediately for myself at the time, and +then when I made a written translation I made a more careful one so +that some of these notes were done a week ago. + +Mr. JENNER. That is what I was getting at. + +Would you please, for the Commission identify the particular notes that +you placed on there at the time you were seeking to interpret it when +you first received it, and the notes you placed on there about a week +ago, and indicate the pages. + +Mrs. PAINE. I can easily answer that. + +There is only one that was placed more recently. That is an underline +on the inside. + +Mr. JENNER. Right-hand inside page? + +Mrs. PAINE. Right-hand side. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it merely an underlining? + +Mrs. PAINE. Underline and a question mark. + +Mr. JENNER. And would you interpret that for us, please? + +Mrs. PAINE. I couldn't read her handwriting, but later realized the +word to be "if." + +Mr. JENNER. When you were seeking to interpret it a week ago to +translate it, you placed a question mark over that word because you +couldn't quite figure it out? + +Mrs. PAINE. And then later realized what it was. + +Mr. JENNER. As being the word "if"? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Other than that, Mrs. Paine, is the document in the +condition it was when you received it and when you initially placed +notations on it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize that handwriting? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, that is Marina Oswald's handwriting. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you made a translation for the Commission of that +letter? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. + +Mr. JENNER. And that appears in your notes at page what? + +Mrs. PAINE. The first page at the bottom. + +Mr. JENNER. Which I have marked No. 4, I believe, is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. Beginning "For Ruth and Michael Paine." + +Mr. JENNER. Does your interpretation or translation of the letter +represent your impressions of the letter when you read it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And that is true, is it, of the other translations which we +will introduce through you today? Is that true of all your translations? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am not sure of what you are inquiring. + +Mr. JENNER. What I am inquiring about, others--as you related to me +last night--other persons with the command of the Russian language. + +Mrs. PAINE. I had no help with the translations. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Other persons with their command of the Russian language might read +one of Marina's letters and have at least, as to some words, an +interpretation different from yours. What I am saying---- + +Mrs. PAINE. In a minor regard, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. It may be? + +Mrs. PAINE. But I believe the meaning would have been the same. + +Mr. JENNER. But it is important to get your impressions, Mrs. Paine, of +Marina's letters to you, despite what interpretations some other people +might give to the same letter, and what I am seeking to emphasize is +whether your translations are your impressions of those letters? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; but they are good translations. + +Mr. JENNER. I don't mean to question that. We seek the impact of these +notes upon you. + +Mrs. PAINE. I see. This is exactly what I understood them to mean, of +course. + +Mr. JENNER. That is fine. + +Now, you received in May or on or about May, or shortly after May 25, +1963, another note from Marina Oswald, did you not? + +Mrs. PAINE. This was postmarked May 25. + +Mr. JENNER. After you had taken her to New Orleans? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. This was the first letter I received from +her from New Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. And you have kindly produced the original of that letter +for the Commission, have you not? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. I am sorry, I have to have your answer aloud or I can't get +it on the record. + +The document you have produced is marked Commission Exhibit 408. + +Do you recognize the handwriting of that note and of that envelope? + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 408 for +identification.) + +Mrs. PAINE. This is the handwriting of Marina Oswald. + +Mr. JENNER. Both documents? + +Mrs. PAINE. On both. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you receive--that is a letter, is it not? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is a letter. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you receive it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. Is it on or about, did you receive it on or about the date +it is postmarked? + +Mrs. PAINE. Shortly after, I would guess. + +Mr. JENNER. I can see some handwriting written horizontally on the back +of the envelope, is that handwriting yours or Marina's? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is mine. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you place that handwriting on the reverse side? + +Mrs. PAINE. When I first read the letter and sought to understand it. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +And those notations are in Russian or in English? + +Mrs. PAINE. A word is given in Russian followed by a translation in +English. + +Mr. JENNER. As in the case of one of the earlier exhibits, did you +place those notations on the reverse side of the envelope at the time +you received the letter in the course of your attempting to interpret +the letter? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. And those notations were in the course of your doing that. +Except for the notations on the reverse side of the envelope, is the +letter and is the envelope, each in the same condition now as when you +received it? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I have made a few underlinings. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you identify any additions you placed on the original +document, indicating the page, front or reverse side? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have marked "bind"---- + +Mr. JENNER. Is that b-i-n-d? + +Mrs. PAINE. Over one word. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you written the word "bind"? Is that what you mean? + +Mrs. PAINE. B-i-n-d. + +Mr. JENNER. And that is an interpretation, I take it of a word written +in Russian underneath it. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And that word then to you in English was "bind", b-i-n-d. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Anything else? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have written the word "thaw" and crossed it out; that was +wrong. + +Mr. JENNER. Meaning what, Mrs. Paine? + +Mrs. PAINE. I had the wrong translation for that word. I realized it +later. + +Mr. JENNER. What was the word rather than---- + +Mrs. PAINE. The meaning was "insists"; the rest of the markings by me +are underlinings. + +Mr. JENNER. I will cover those by asking you this. Were there any +underlinings on the letter placed there by Marina Oswald at the time +you received the letter? + +Mrs. PAINE. Only one, under this word here. + +Mr. JENNER. That is on the reverse side of the second page of the +letter? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is on the last page. The second page; yes. + +Mr. JENNER. It is the reverse side of the second sheet of paper? + +Mrs. PAINE. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. And it looks to help from her as though it is an arrow, is +that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. There is an underline and then from the underlined word is +an arrow. + +Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits Nos. 407 and 408 +the documents now so marked and identified by the witness. + +Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted. + +(The documents referred to, heretofore marked for identification as +Commission Exhibits Nos. 407 and 408, were received in evidence.) + +Mr. JENNER. Would you retain that for a moment, please? + +Mr. DULLES. May I ask, is the envelope 408A attached? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; and in the ease of the earlier exhibit the envelope---- + +Mrs. PAINE. It is only the second envelope we have had. + +Mr. JENNER. The envelope accompanying Exhibit 404 was marked 404A, and +the envelope now accompanying 408 is marked 408A. + +Mr. McCLOY. Is it so marked now? + +Mr. DULLES. Do you wish me to mark it? + +(The enevelope was marked Commission Exhibit 408A for identification +and received in evidence.) + +Mr. JENNER. Have you supplied the Commission, Mrs. Paine, with your +translation of that letter? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I have. + +Mr. JENNER. And your interpretation and the effect or the impression +that you had of that letter when you received it and as you read it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, turning to the first page, I would like to direct +attention---- + +Mr. DULLES. Do you wish this back? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I will look at the translation. + +Mr. JENNER. She has supplied me with an interpretation. In the first +paragraph it reads and I quote, and you follow me, please. I will read +the whole paragraph: + +"Here it is already a week since I received your letter. I can't +produce any excuses as there are no valid reasons. I am ashamed to +confess that I am a person of moods and my mood currently is such that +I don't feel much like anything. As soon as you left all love stopped +and I am very hurt that Lee's attitude toward me is such that I feel +each minute that I bind him. He insists that I leave America which I +don't want to do at all. I like America very much and I think that even +without Lee I would not be lost here. What do you think?" + +Had you had any discussion with Marina when you were in New Orleans +on the subject matters which I have just read to you from the first +paragraph of her letter, Commission Exhibit No. 408? + +Mrs. PAINE. There was no such discussion in New Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. What impact did this have on you, Mrs. Paine, when you +received this letter and read that first paragraph? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was a repetition, or similar to something she had told +me late in March, which I have already put on the record yesterday, +saying basically that he wanted her to go back, wanted to send her back +to the Soviet Union. + +Mr. JENNER. And to send her back alone, is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. That was the impression I carried. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there ever any occassion, during all your acquaintance +with the Oswalds, when there was any suggestion or implication that if +she returned to Russia, at his request, that he would accompany her? + +Mrs. PAINE. There was no such suggestion. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it always that she was to go to Russia alone? + +Mrs. PAINE. As she described it, it carried from her the feeling that +she was being sent away. + +Mr. JENNER. What about the little child, June? + +Mrs. PAINE. June with her. + +Mr. JENNER. Was to accompany her to Russia. Now, the second paragraph, +if I may: + +"This is the basic question which doesn't leave me day or night. And +again Lee has said to me that he doesn't love me. So you see we came +to mistaken conclusions. It is hard for you and me to live without a +return of our love interest gone. How would it all end?" + +Had there been discussions between you and Marina Oswald on the subject +of whether or not her husband had love for her, and in that area? + +Mrs. PAINE. What I particularly recall is what I mentioned yesterday, +when he telephoned her and said he had found a job and wanted her to +come---- + +Mr. JENNER. This was just before going to New Orleans? + +Mrs. PAINE. Just before going to New Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. In the spring? + +Mrs. PAINE. Right. She said "Papa loves us," as I have testified. She +had wondered to me during the 2 weeks previous whether he did, whether +she loved him. But was clearly elated by his call and gradually came +to her own conclusions. Really, I had no ground upon which to make a +conclusion. + +Mr. DULLES. She was speaking in Russian then to you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, were you impressed that this paragraph, however, was +not consistent with her immediate response at the time that telephone +call had been made to her? + +Mrs. PAINE. It showed me there was not as much change as she had hoped. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with her on this subject when +you were in New Orleans, and when you took her or when you were taking +her from Irving, Tex., to New Orleans? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever. When you were in New Orleans, Mrs. Paine, +did you tour any night clubs? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you or Marina ever evidence any interest in touring +Bourbon Street, for example? + +Mrs. PAINE. You are talking about the spring visit? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; I am. + +Mrs. PAINE. We went to the French Quarter during the day. + +Mr. JENNER. Please identify whom you include when you say "we." + +Mrs. PAINE. Lee, Marina, I, and three children. + +Mr. JENNER. Did all of you, including Lee, go to the French Quarter? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; we did. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you tour the Bourbon Street areas, Royal Street, and +the other areas? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; we did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Will you tell us without any length--you did not. This was +a tourist visit of the French Quarter, is that right? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. In the day? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. With the children? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was anything said during the course of that tourist visit +about visiting Bourbon Street at night rather than in the daytime? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that there was anything said. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion about Lee Oswald visiting or +frequenting night clubs? + +Mrs. PAINE. None. + +Mr. JENNER. Either in Dallas, or in New Orleans or in Irving, Tex.? + +Mrs. PAINE. None; at any time. + +Mr. JENNER. Did any one of you tour Bourbon Street at night during that +spring visit? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Any discussion of the subject? + +Mrs. PAINE. Not to my recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there a subsequent occasion when you did visit Bourbon +Street at night? + +Mrs. PAINE. In September, when I visited again in New Orleans. Shall I +tell that? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; please, because there is a measure of contrast to that +I would like to bring out. + +Mrs. PAINE. Marina and I and our three small children went down in the +early evening and walked along the street. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us how that came about, whether Lee Oswald +accompanied you? + +Mrs. PAINE. He did not accompany us. He was asked if he wanted to go, +and he said he did not. Marina was interested in my seeing Bourbon +Street at night simply as a tourist attraction. + +Mr. JENNER. And you two girls took your children? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did she take June? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You two girls walked down Bourbon Street? + +Mrs. PAINE. And one of us very pregnant. + +Mr. JENNER. And observed everything from the outside. You didn't go +inside any night clubs? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. In fact, when I realized we weren't permitted, we went +on. + +Mr. JENNER. You had small children? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion with Mr. Oswald at that time or +with Marina which led you to form a judgment as to whether he was a man +who might, or would, or had frequented night clubs? + +Mrs. PAINE. I judged he was not such a person. + +Mr. JENNER. In all your experiences with the Oswalds from February, +sometime in February 1963, even to the present date, had any mention +been made of Lee Oswald frequenting night clubs? + +Mrs. PAINE. None. + +Mr. JENNER. Or of Marina at any time? + +Mrs. PAINE. No mention of her. + +Mr. DULLES. Did you get the impression when you made this trip that +Marina had previously made the trip herself, that she seemed to know +the surroundings? + +Mrs. PAINE. This occurs in the next paragraph of the letter she wrote +in May, so I knew she had been herself. + +Mr. DULLES. She had been there before? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. From the letter I judge with Lee accompanying her. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, if you will pardon me. Mr. Reporter, will you +read the question? + +(Question read.) + +Mr. JENNER. Would you answer just that question? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. McCLOY. She did answer it. + +Mr. JENNER. I didn't think she did. + +Mr. DULLES. I think she said "yes." + +Mr. JENNER. Now the letter of May 25th to you does make reference to +visits to the French Quarter, is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Gentlemen of the Commission, that portion of the letter +reads as follows: + +"Now a bit about the impressions I have received this week. Last +Saturday we went to Aunt Lillian's"--Aunt Lillian, Mrs. Paine, is Lee +Oswald's aunt? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Murret? + +Mrs. PAINE. Mrs. Murret. + +Mr. JENNER. "And leaving June with her we are at the lake. Lee wanted +to catch crabs but caught nothing. I have a very high opinion of his +relatives." + +By the way, what was your opinion of his relatives? + +Mrs. PAINE. I met them only once. I thought them to be very nice. + +Mr. JENNER. "Straightforward and kind people. To me they are very +attentive. I like them. We have been to the French Quarter in the +evening. It is a shame you didn't manage to get there in the evening. +For me it was especially interesting as it was the first time in my +life I had seen such. There were many night clubs there. Through the +open doors were visible barrel covered dancing girls (so as not to say +entirely unclothed). Most of them had really very pretty, rare figures +and if one doesn't think about too many things then one can like them +very much. There were a great many tourists there. For the most part +very rich. We have been to the near park again." + +That is all of that paragraph dealing with the nightclubs. Now, did you +ever know a man or person by the name of Jack Rubinstein or Jack Ruby? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Prior to November 24, 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear of any such individual? + +Mrs. PAINE. No, I did not. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you frequented a nightclub in Irving or in Dallas prior +to November 24, 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. Not at any time. In either town. + +Mr. JENNER. You and your husband Michael were not in the habit of +visiting, frequenting nightclubs? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. It is a fact, is it not, Mrs. Paine that neither you nor +Mr. Paine attended nightclubs at all? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Is this true prior to your moving to Irving? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there anything that occurred during all these months of +your acquaintance with the Oswalds that did or might have led you to +any opinion as to Lee's frequenting of nightclubs or his acquaintance +with nightclubs or his being intimate with nightclub people? + +Mrs. PAINE. During the entire time, is that your question? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. Let us end the day for you for this purpose at +November 22, 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. He was, I would say, actively disinterested in going down +to Bourbon Street in the last weekend in September. + +Mr. JENNER. But even prior to that time? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was the 21st. + +Mr. JENNER. Had anything occurred by way of a remark at all that made +an impression on you in the area of his being acquainted possibly with +any nightclub people, any entertainers? + +Mrs. PAINE. There had been no hint of any sort that he was acquainted +with nightclub people? + +Mr. McCLOY. Whether in Dallas, New Orleans or Irving? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. Of course, I had not talked to him a great +deal up to the New Orleans trip. Then after that time there was also no +hint or mention of any nightclub people. After that time in New Orleans +he did refuse table wine at my home, so I got the impression of him as +a person who didn't like to drink. + +Mr. JENNER. During all your acquaintance with Lee Harvey Oswald, did +you ever see him take a drink of spirits, intoxicating spirits? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is possible he had beer at the initial party on the 22d +of February, that is as far as I can remember. + +Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have of him as a man of temperance? + +Mrs. PAINE. He teased Marina about liking wine as if it displeased him +mildly. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine. You are talking in terms of +conclusions which is all right with me if you will give me the +specifics also. Could you give us an example or an occasion of what you +have in mind? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, at the same occasion when he refused the wine, she +had some. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. Did he say something that led you to say he was +teasing her? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you describe what that was? + +Mrs. PAINE. Indicating a mild disapproval. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you please relate to the Commission your impression +of Marina Oswald as a temperate person? + +Mrs. PAINE. She did not like liquors. + +Mr. JENNER. What we would call hard liquor? + +Mrs. PAINE. Strong spirits. + +Mr. JENNER. Strong spirits. + +Mrs. PAINE. But she did drink beer at my home, and did occasionally +have wine. + +Mr. JENNER. She occasionally had a bit of wine and she occasionally had +some beer? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that the extent of, as far as your personal knowledge is +concerned, her indulgence in intoxicating spirits? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Does that likewise describe your indulgence or do you---- + +Mrs. PAINE. I would also drink a cocktail on occasion. + +Mr. JENNER. But very limited and just an occasional drink? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that likewise true of your husband, Michael? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Representative FORD. Did Marina ever drink to excess? + +Mrs. PAINE. Certainly not that I ever heard about or saw. + +Mr. JENNER. Not that you ever heard about or that you saw? + +Mrs. PAINE. Or saw. + +Mr. JENNER. From your testimony that is certainly true with Lee Harvey +Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is certainly true of him also. + +Mr. JENNER. As far as you are concerned? + +Mrs. PAINE. As far as I am concerned. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, I think you testified yesterday that Marina would +assist you in your becoming more proficient in the Russian language by +returning letters that you had written her, upon which she would place +her comments of instruction or criticism or suggestion? + +Mrs. PAINE. Before she left for New Orleans in May, she offered to +correct and send back any letters I wrote to her. In the correspondence +which included some four letters with her altogether, there was only +one of mine that was actually corrected and sent back and you have that. + +Mr. JENNER. I have marked a three-page document as Commission Exhibit +409, and the envelope as Commission Exhibit 409A, the envelope being +postmarked at New Orleans on June 6, 1963, and being addressed to Mrs. +Ruth Paine. + +Mrs. PAINE. Do you want to make a separate designation for my return +letter? You are looking at the letter which accompanied her letter. + +Mr. JENNER. That document I will mark as Commission Exhibit----may I +have permission, Mr. Chairman, to mark this document in my own hand +because the sticker, I am afraid, will obliterate some of the letter. + +Mr. McCLOY. You may. + +Mr. JENNER. I will mark this as 409B. + +Now, Mrs. Paine, would you be good enough to identify 409, 409A, and +409B, the sequence in which they passed back and forth between you and +Mrs. Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. It includes, No. 409 is my letter to her dated the 1st of +June, which she---- + +Mr. JENNER. 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that document, or do you recognize the handwriting on +that document? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is my hand. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you turn to the reverse side of the second page, +third page. I see there is something on that in red crayon. + +Mrs. PAINE. All the red marks and the little bit in ballpoint pen are +made by her. + +Mr. JENNER. That is what I was seeking to bring out. + +Mrs. PAINE. At the end it includes a note of comments. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, the portion of the letter in blue ink in +longhand is in whose handwriting? + +Mrs. PAINE. In my handwriting. + +Mr. JENNER. And the portion of the letter in red crayon on the reverse +side of the third page is in whose handwriting? + +Mrs. PAINE. Is in her handwriting. + +Mr. JENNER. On the first page is there any of her handwriting? + +Mrs. PAINE. On the first page in blue ink, ballpoint pen there is some +handwriting which is hers at the top. + +Mr. JENNER. Those are notations in between the lines or in the margin? + +Mrs. PAINE. Above my writing. Yes; sir. + +Mr. JENNER. They are comments of hers on your letter? + +Mrs. PAINE. And my spelling. + +Mr. JENNER. Of your spelling? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Do any of those markings appear other than on the face of +the first sheet? + +Mrs. PAINE. In blue ink you are asking? + +Mr. JENNER. Yes, I am. + +Mrs. PAINE. No. The rest is all in red. + +Mr. JENNER. That then was a letter that you had sent to her? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Was it returned to you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did some document which you now have before you accompany +the letter on its return? + +Mrs. PAINE. Her letter dated June 5th. + +Mr. JENNER. Which has been marked Commission Exhibit 409B? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you do recognize that handwriting as having been hers? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do. + +Mr. JENNER. Of the two documents you have now identified, 409 and 409B, +were they enclosed in an envelope? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they were. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that envelope before you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. It is marked Commission Exhibit 409A? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Are all those conditions of documents in the condition +which they were in when you received them? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have again added in my hand on her letter. + +Mr. JENNER. That is 409B? + +Mrs. PAINE. Translations of certain of the words. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you please, for the purpose of the record, identify +what your handwriting is, on the letter 409B. + +Mrs. PAINE. It is above her words. Most of it is in English. + +Mr. JENNER. That is in your hand? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Other than that, are the documents in the condition they +were when you received them? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. There is one interesting thing to me, Mrs. Paine, to which +I would like to draw the attention of the Commission. And I direct +your attention in this respect to Exhibits 404, 404A, 408, 408A, 409, +and 409A. Each has an envelope addressed to you, and each is addressed +written in English. + +Is the handwriting on each of those envelopes Marina Oswald's? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is. + +Mr. JENNER. She was then able to write some English, is that so? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you please---- + +Mrs. PAINE. She learned her own address. + +Mr. JENNER. Did her command of the use of the English language, at +least from the writing standpoint, extend beyond those examples? + +Mrs. PAINE. Not to my knowledge. I knew that she looked at signs and +had learned the sound value of the English letters. That she looked at +the Thursday supplement to the newspaper for the ads on vegetables and +things with pictures on a can or something that showed the English of +what it was, to try to determine what this word was and pronounce it. + +Mr. JENNER. So she did acquire some command of English with respect to +reading newspapers? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was not my impression that she could read a newspaper. +She could pick out the sound values. It was not until October that +I read with her a portion from Time magazine regarding Madam Nhu, +whenever that was news, she asked me to read this to her and translate +it. I read it. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you read it in English first? + +Mrs. PAINE. I read it in English, giving translation of some of the +words. + +Mr. JENNER. As you went along? + +Mrs. PAINE. As I went along. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mrs. PAINE. But many of the words, English words, were words she +understood, because they were either similar to the Russian or because +she had learned them. + +I was surprised at how much she understood when I pronounced it and +read it to her. + +Representative FORD. In English? + +Mrs. PAINE. In English. Because she was very hesitant to speak English +with me, fearful that her pronunciation would not be correct. She would +ask me several times, "How do I pronounce this," although she didn't +think she was doing very well with the pronunciation, although she did +well. + +Mr. JENNER. She was sensitive in this respect, Mrs. Paine, she was +hesitant to use the English language in the presence, say, of Americans +or even the Russian emigré groups? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think most people are sensitive about using a language +when the person they are with can understand them in the language they +use better. She also talked with my immediate neighbor for a short +time, when only she and the neighbor were present. I went to see about +a child. + +Mr. JENNER. Could your neighbor understand Russian? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. But there was a measure of communication? + +Mrs. PAINE. There was some communication, not a great deal. My neighbor +told me after she saw Marina on television in January, whatever it was, +"that girl has learned a great deal of English." She was amazed at the +change. + +Representative FORD. The improvement from October to January? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. How would you appraise her general intelligence, her level +of intelligence for a girl of that age in the early twenties? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think she certainly had above average intelligence. + +Representative FORD. What prompted her, if you know, to ask about Madam +Nhu? + +Mrs. PAINE. She was interested in the family. She was worried about +what Madam Nhu would do. Madam Nhu and the children still in her +country. She wanted to know were these children going to come out +either in Paris or the United States. She was concerned, and her +concern for world affairs seemed to go this way, of what is this mother +and children going to do. + +Mr. JENNER. Was she concerned about the conflict between the North +Vietnamese and the South Vietnamese? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; this didn't interest her, it didn't appear to. + +Mr. JENNER. It was the human side rather than the political side? + +Mrs. PAINE. Strictly that. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you; that is what I wanted to bring out. I offer in +evidence, Mr. Chairman, as Exhibits with those numbers, the documents +marked Commission Exhibits 409, 409-A, and 409-B. + +Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. + +(The documents referred to previously, marked Commission Exhibits Nos. +409, 409-A, and 409-B, were received in evidence.) + +(At this point, Representative Boggs entered the hearing room.) + +Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, turning to this series of correspondence +which has now been admitted in evidence, have you made an +interpretation for the Commission of Exhibit 409-B? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. + +Mr. JENNER. Where does that appear on your summary you furnished to me +last evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. That begins in the middle of page 6, marked second letter +from New Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Your interpretation of the letter dealing with +the night club visit of the Oswalds, you have interpreted that for the +Commission, and that appears on page what of your summary? + +Mrs. PAINE. That appears on page 3 marked first letter from New Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Were you concerned about Mrs. Oswald, about +Marina's condition and her receiving proper medical attention? + +Mrs. PAINE. I was very concerned about it. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you write her at any time about it? + +Mrs. PAINE. I would like to refer you to my letter of June 1st which +was returned in the document you just admitted in evidence. + +Mr. JENNER. You did write her about it? + +Mrs. PAINE. I wrote particularly in that letter to Lee. + +Mr. JENNER. You wrote both Lee and Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. In this letter I addressed each, and a particular portion +of that letter is in English. + +Mr. JENNER. And that is Commission Exhibit No. 409? + +Mrs. PAINE. That was to Lee, that particular portion. + +Mr. JENNER. You incorporated, did you not, in that letter, a direct +communication to Lee Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. I say in Russian a few words to Lee now about hospital and +money. + +Mr. JENNER. But incorporated in your note in that letter to Lee Oswald +you used the English rather than the Russian language, did you not? + +Mrs. PAINE. I wanted to speak of things I couldn't say in Russian. I +didn't have the vocabulary to do it with any ease in Russian. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mrs. PAINE. And further I particularly wanted to tell him I thought it +important she get to a doctor and have prenatal care and felt he would +be the one who actually got her there. It was his concern that would +produce a visit to the doctor. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. That explains that portion of the letter which is +Commission Exhibit No. 409. + +Mrs. PAINE. 409. + +Mr. JENNER. I won't go into the details, Mr. Chairman, because these +are recommendations of Mrs. Paine for medical care of Marina Oswald. + +Mr. McCLOY. Do I understand you are going to read all of these into the +record at the noon hour? + +Mr. JENNER. At the noon hour I will read all of these into the record +rather than do it now. Now you, last night, Mrs Paine, suggested to me +you would like to make an explanation of this series of letters, and I +direct your attention to page 7 of your notes. + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, the commentary on page 7 by me is---- + +Mr. JENNER. Refreshing your recollection from having read it, you would +like to make a statement to the Commission and you may proceed to do so. + +Mrs. PAINE. It doesn't refresh me enough. I could say this. That when +I received 409-B, her letter, I read it through. I glanced at 409, her +corrected--my letter which she had corrected, and at the note at the +back which began, "You write well" and assumed this to be commentary on +my letter; it was not until I sat down nearly a month later to write +a proper reply to her, I read this through more carefully and found +in the middle of the paragraph discussing my writing a comment by her +saying, "Very likely I will have to go back to Russia after all." + +Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record there appears the red crayon +to which I earlier drew your attention on the back of page 3. + +Would you read that entire notation of hers so that the Commission may +now know that to which you are now directing your attention? + +Mrs. PAINE. In the back of my letter she writes in red pencil, "You +write well, when will I write that way in English. I think never. Very +likely I will have to go back to Russia after all. A pity." + +Mr. DULLES. What was the last? + +Mrs. PAINE. "A pity." + +Mr. JENNER. I take it when you first read that notation on the back of +the third page of the letter you had not noticed the sentence, "Very +likely I will have to go to Russia after all. A pity." + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you proceed with your comment? + +Mrs. PAINE. This was early July when I read this letter more carefully +and I was shocked that I hadn't noticed this. That my poor Russian made +a scanning of the letter not adequate to picking that up, and I wrote +her immediately apologizing for my bad understanding, and I don't have +that letter, but I have three which followed it, and---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Do you have a draft, have you produced for the +Commission your immediate preceding draft of that letter? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have no rough draft of my first letter explaining my +shock and my worry at this statement of hers. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mrs. PAINE. But I have rough drafts of three letters I wrote +subsequently. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you ever seen at any time a copy or the original of +the letter that you wrote, a draft of which you do not have? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I haven't. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you please relate to the Commission your present +recollection of the substance and content of that letter? + +Mrs. PAINE. Much what I have said. That I apologized that my poor +Russian didn't see this immediately and I inquired after her what she +was doing, and asked to hear from her. + +Mr. JENNER. You say, that sentence when you finally did read it rather +shocked you. Would you rather--would you elaborate on that statement to +the Commission? Why did that shock you? + +Mrs. PAINE. It seemed more final than anything else that had preceded. +She had told me in March that he had asked her to go back, that she had +written to the embassy but she didn't reply to the embassy when the +embassy inquired why. It looked as though she was able to just say no +by not doing anything about it. But this, on the other hand, looked as +if she was resigned to the necessity to go back. + +Mr. JENNER. Were you aware at this time, Mrs. Paine, that Lee had +applied to the State Department for a passport and had obtained one? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I was not aware of that. + +Mr. JENNER. When did you first become aware of that, if you ever did? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was considerably after the assassination, and I read it +in a paper. I still don't remember what time or day it was. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, did you write Marina on or about the 11th of July? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have a rough draft of that date. + +Mr. JENNER. I hand you a document of two pages which has been +identified as Commission Exhibit No. 410. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 410 for +identification.) + +Would you please tell us what that document is? + +Mrs. PAINE. This is the rough draft, to which I just referred, written +to Marina. + +Mr. JENNER. And you thereupon prepared the final draft and sent it? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. This represents, does it not, your best recollection of the +contents of the letter, the letter in its final form as you transmitted +it to Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think this is probably a very accurate representation of +the letter in its final form. It was the first time I put on paper an +invitation to her to come and stay with me for anything more than a few +weeks around the birth of the baby. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you supplied the Commission with a translation of your +letter? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. + +Mr. JENNER. And that appears at the bottom of page 7 of your notes +which you have supplied to me? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. I direct your attention, if I may, and the attention of +the Commission as interpreted by Mrs. Paine, the first sentence reads, +"Dear Marina, if Lee doesn't wish to live with you any more and prefers +that you go to the Soviet Union, think about the possibility of living +with me." + +You just said--is that the portion of your letter which you say this +is the first invitation you made to Marina to come to live with you +generally? + +Mrs. PAINE. This was the first written invitation. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mrs. PAINE. I had made an informal invitation face to face when she was +staying the first week in May, but felt as I made it that she didn't +take this seriously. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you go on in your letter and you make reference, for +example, to--let's take the second paragraph of your letter appearing +at the top of page 8 of your notes, "You know I have long received +from my parents, I live dependent a long time. I would be happy +to be an aunt to you and I can. We have sufficient money. Michael +will be glad. This I know. He just gave me $500 for the vacation or +something necessary. With this money it is possible to pay the doctor +and hospital in October when the baby is born, believe God. All will +be well for you and the children. I confess that I think that the +opportunity for me to know you came from God. Perhaps it is not so but +I think and believe so." + +Had you discussed this matter with your husband? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I had. + +Mr. JENNER. And you were still living separate and apart at that time? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But I felt so long as I was not yet earning, he would +be the one, in fact, who was supporting all of us. + +Mr. JENNER. I think the Commission might be interested in that. You +were not taking this action, either in the earlier stage in the early +spring or in the summer of inviting Marina to live with you without +discussing that with your husband even though you and your husband at +that time were separated? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you do anything, Mrs. Paine, in this connection with +respect to keeping Lee Oswald informed of your invitations and your +communications in this area with Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. I wrote into the letter that I hoped--well you might just +read the last paragraph. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you mind reading it? + +Mrs. PAINE. I will read it, the last paragraph in the letter, and I +might say that the entire letter I wrote with the possibility in mind +that he should see this. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you desire that he do see it? + +Mrs. PAINE. I wanted him to--her to feel free to show it to him. I +didn't want her to come to my house if this offended or injured him, if +this was in some way---- + +(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.) + +Mr. JENNER. Divisive? + +Mrs. PAINE. If he did in fact want to keep his family together, I +certainly wanted him to, but if the bulk of his feelings lay on the +side of wanting to be away, separated from Marina, then I thought it +was legitimate for him to have that alternative, although it was not +legitimate for him to simply send her back if she didn't want to go. + +Mr. JENNER. Send her back where? + +Mrs. PAINE. To the Soviet Union, if she didn't want to go. So in this +light I will read the last paragraph of Commission Exhibit 410: + +"I don't want to hurt Lee with this invitation to you. Only I think +that it would be better that you and he do not live together if you +do not receive happiness. I understand how Michael feels. He doesn't +love me and wants a chance to look for another life and another wife. +He must do this, it seems, and so it is better for us not to live +together. I don't know how Lee feels. I would like to know. Surely +things are hard for him now, too. I hope that he would be glad to see +you with me where he can know that you and the children will receive +everything that is necessary and he would not need to worry about it. +Thus he could start life again." + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, having all this in mind and what you have +testified to up to now, would you please tell the gentlemen of the +Commission the factors and motivations you had in inviting Marina to +come live with you; first to have her baby, next on a more extended +scale, all of the factors that motivated you in your offer, in your own +words? + +Mrs. PAINE. The first invitation, just to come for a few weeks at the +time of the birth is a simpler question, I will answer that first. + +I felt that she would need someone simply to take care of her older +child for the time that she was in the hospital, and that things would +be easier for her if she didn't have to immediately take up the full +household chores upon returning from the hospital. This was a very +simple offer. + +Mr. JENNER. That was all that motivated you at that time? + +Mrs. PAINE. Now, in asking her to come and stay for a more extended +period, I had many feelings. I was living alone with my children, at +that time, had been since the previous fall, nearly a year, at the time +this letter is written. I had no idea that my husband might move back +to the house. I was tired of living alone and lonely, and here was a +woman who was alone and in a sense also, if Lee, in fact didn't want to +be with her, and further she was a person I liked. I had lived with her +2 weeks in late April and early May. I enjoyed her company. + +Further, being able to talk Russian with her added a wider dimension +to my rather small and boring life as a young mother. I didn't want +to go out and get a job because I wanted to be home with my children, +but on the other hand, I saw a way to, and that is part of what +studying Russian altogether is for me, a way to make my daily life +more interesting. I also felt when I first heard in March that Lee was +wanting to send Marina back, that is how it was presented to me, that +it just seemed a shame that our country couldn't be a more hospitable +thing for her if she wanted so much to stay, that I thought she should +have that opportunity. + +I was pleased that she liked America, and thought that she should have +a chance to stay here and raise her children here as she wished. + +I might say also if I had not been living alone I would not have +undertaken such an invitation. My house is small and it wouldn't have +gone with married life. + +Mr. JENNER. I wanted to afford you that opportunity. Now, you have +related all the factors that motivated you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 410 the +document which has been so identified. + +Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. + +(The document referred to, previously marked as Commission Exhibit No. +410 for identification, was received in evidence.) + +Mr. McCLOY. We have been going for an hour and a half. If you would +like to have a recess you may have it. + +Mrs. PAINE. I am all right. + +Mr. McCLOY. All right, we will go on then. + +Mr. JENNER. You mentioned in the course of your explanation earlier a +series of three letters. I hand you a draft of letter dated July 12, +1963, addressed to Dear Marina, consisting of two pages, which we will +mark as Commission Exhibit No. 411. And another one-page letter which +we will mark as Commission Exhibit No. 412. + +In whose handwriting is each of those exhibits? + +Mrs. PAINE. Each of these are in my handwriting. + +Mr. JENNER. And they are drafts, are they? + +Mrs. PAINE. They are. + +Mr. JENNER. And you would then, after making those drafts put them in +final form? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you transmit the final draft of letter to Marina Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. I mailed them to her address in New Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you supplied me with your translation of both of those +drafts? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have. + +Mr. JENNER. Each draft is in your handwriting? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And the interpretations appearing at the bottom of page +8 and the bottom of page 9 are the material you supplied me and they +consist of your interpretations of those letters or translations, +rather? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. They are dated respectively July 12 and July +14. + +Mr. JENNER. I hand you a picture copy rather than a photostatic copy +of a two-page letter dated July 14, 1963, and a translation of that +letter which we will mark as Commission Exhibits Nos. 413 and 414, +respectively. + +(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 413 and +414 for identification.) + +Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to Exhibit 413, would you tell us +what that is? + +Mrs. PAINE. This appears to be a photograph of the letter I then wrote +from my final draft and sent to Marina, dated the 14th of July. + +Mr. JENNER. So that Exhibit No. 413 is the---- + +Mrs. PAINE. 413, the photograph. + +Mr. JENNER. 413 is to the best of your recollection an actual picture +of your final draft letter as transmitted to Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Now directing your attention to page 10 of the material +that you supplied me, and which you discussed with me last evening, +you wished to make a statement to the Commission with respect to this +letter, do you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Would you please proceed to do so? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think it would be easier if I read what is here. + +Mr. JENNER. Any way you want to handle it, Mrs. Paine. + +Mrs. PAINE. Marina stayed with me 2 weeks in the spring as you know, +and I realized then what a proud and capable person she is. She was +not accustomed to accept help from others, and I knew that her pride +and independence would be a stumbling block to her accepting help even +though she needed it. + +I respected her for this and somehow I wanted to ease such acceptance +for her, and to explain that the situation I proposed would be a +situation of mutual help. I hoped--now I should say that in Commission +Exhibit---- + +Mr. JENNER. They are to your right on the table. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; 411 and 412, I mentioned that if she were counted as a +dependent on Michael's income tax his yearly payment to the government +would be reduced by a certain amount, and that by that amount she--we +could very nearly live--her expenses could very nearly come under +this, so it would be more a case of breaking even than a case of her +accepting so much as she might think from us. But I think that in fact +this reference to the tax reduction did not encourage her, as I had +hoped. + +Mr. JENNER. It wasn't quite correct either, was it, Mrs. Paine? + +(Laughter.) + +Mrs. PAINE. Did I get a chance to read the second letter as written at +2 a.m. and I was hopeful only more than---- + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, I think the members of the Commission and also +you from our talk last night, are interested in your letters which you +have now identified suggesting financial arrangements to Mrs. Oswald, +since to one who might read them without knowing the background they +might seem crass. + +Mrs. PAINE. I felt crass in Russian, particularly. + +Mr. JENNER. I was not thinking in terms of your difficulty in +communicating with her, but you had no selfish or ulterior financial +motive, did you, in this connection? + +Mrs. PAINE. Did it appear that? + +Mr. JENNER. It might. + +Mrs. PAINE. Even with such bad arithmetic. + +Mr. JENNER. Your arithmetic was all right. Your interpretation of the +law was not as good as it might be. + +Mr. DULLES. Am I not correct, I understood you were trying to make her +feel she was not going to be a burden to you? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. DULLES. And were using certain subterfuges to accomplish that; that +is the impression I got from what you said. + +Mrs. PAINE. That is absolutely correct. That I hoped, and further I +would say in the letters to her I made reference that this money not +paid to the government would be therefore available for spending money +for her. I had put myself in her position and thought wouldn't it +be terrible to have to ask for a nickel for a package of Lifesavers +every time you wanted it, and thought I wouldn't want to be in such a +situation if she doesn't have her own, something she can count upon as +her own money, it would be unbearable to her. + +So I tried to cast about both for a way of making her feel that this +would not be a burden to us, and a way of getting her petty cash in the +pocket that she would not feel was a handout. So that it would be a +legitimate possibility for her to consider. + +I judge that my effort in this regard, besides the bad understanding +of the tax law and the poor arithmetic, didn't help because of her +following letter. + +Mr. JENNER. That is what I was coming to. Before we get to that, Mrs. +Paine, I direct your attention to Commission Exhibit No. 414. + +Mrs. PAINE. 414? + +Mr. JENNER. That is a translation of your letter, Commission Exhibit +No. 413. Have you read that translation? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is there anything in the translation to which you might +desire to take exception or at least make a comment? + +(At this point Chief Justice Warren left the hearing room.) + +Mrs. PAINE. One minute. Yes, it accurately reflects some of my bad +Russian. + +Mr. JENNER. You take no exception to the translation? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think no. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, if you please, I offer in evidence, Mr. +Dulles, may I have those exhibits---- + +Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted. + +Mr. JENNER. As Commission Exhibits 411, 412, 413 and 414, the documents +that had been so marked? + +Mr. McCLOY. They will be admitted. + +(The documents referred, previously marked Commission Exhibits Nos. +411, 412, 413, and 414, were received in evidence.) + +Mr. JENNER. You did receive a response from Marina, did you not, Mrs. +Paine? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. + +Mr. JENNER. And is the response the document now handed to you marked +Commission Exhibit No. 415? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. And you supplied the Commission with your translation of +that letter and that translation---- + +Mrs. PAINE. 415 is that what you said? + +Mr. JENNER. 415. It appears on pages 10, 11, and 12 of the material you +supplied me. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't have an envelope but you have a letter. + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't have an envelope. I don't know what happened to it. + +Mr. JENNER. Is the exhibit in Marina Oswald's handwriting? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. Is there anything on the exhibit other than that in the +handwriting of Marina Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. There are a few underlinings on the page marked four. + +Mr. JENNER. Who placed them there? + +Mrs. PAINE. Which are my own. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Anything else? + +Mrs. PAINE. Except for the underlining "he does not know" at the very +bottom. + +Mr. JENNER. "He" refers to whom? + +Mrs. PAINE. Lee. + +Mr. JENNER. You were about to state to the Commission Marina Oswald's +reaction to your series of invitations. Is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you proceed then? + +Mrs. PAINE. As reflected in this letter. This was the third letter I +received from her after a space of over a month, and I had been very +concerned about her. I was much relieved to get it. She said she had +been to the doctor and her condition was normal. She responded to +this series of four letters of which we have three in rough draft, +saying--shall I read in some of the things said? + +Mr. JENNER. To the extent that you desire to do so. We will not read +the whole letter, it is quite long; that which is pertinent to what you +have in mind. + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, that for a considerable period Lee has been good to +her, she writes. He talks a lot about the coming baby. + +Mr. JENNER. Perhaps you might pick out--there are only about four +sentences. + +Mrs. PAINE. "He has become more attentive and we hardly quarrel". + +Mr. JENNER. This indicates a change somewhat in relationship and would +you please read that portion of the letter? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. Could we have the date of this letter once again? + +Mrs. PAINE. The date of the letter. We have no date on the letter. It +was written somewhere between July 18 and July 21, which is the date of +my reply. + +Mr. JENNER. That is how you identify it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Representative FORD. This is 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. Right. Again, "He has become much more attentive and we +hardly quarrel. True I have to give in a great deal. It could not be +otherwise. But if one wants peace then it is necessary to give in. We +went to the doctor, my condition is normal." + +And she thanks me for the invitation and thanks Michael also and says: + +"I would try to take advantage of it if things really become worse, if +Lee becomes coarse with me again and treats me badly." + +Mr. JENNER. I direct your attention to the paragraph following that +one, Mrs. Paine. + +Mrs. PAINE. Now another question: + +"If as is possible it becomes necessary for me to come to live with +you in order to say that I am a dependent of Michael's surely it would +be necessary to have an official divorce, isn't that so? But I think +Lee would not agree to a divorce, and to go simply from him to become +a burden to you that I don't wish. Surely Michael would need to have +a paper showing that I am living at his expense but no one would just +take his word for it, right?" + +And I realized much later that in the Soviet Union you don't do +anything without the proper papers, and just having a person under your +roof for anyone to see, having them in fact eating at your table is +not, would not be, sufficient proof--would not be sufficient there in +Russia. + +Representative BOGGS. It might not be here. + +Mrs. PAINE. It might not be here. Well, in any case I judged she felt, +reading my invitations this was of some importance to me whether +Michael counted her as a deduction, and so on, whereas in fact this +wasn't the point at all, but that I had hoped to somehow make, if +possible, for her to accept such help. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you finished your observations? + +Representative BOGGS. As a matter of fact, there are certain +limitations under our law as to how you can claim a dependent. + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I asked a few people who didn't know much about it +before I wrote it. + +Representative BOGGS. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. The tenor then of this letter was as I gather from your +testimony and as you have related to me last evening whether she would +come to live with you in the fall or generally was something which now +became subject to reconsideration? + +Mrs. PAINE. Pardon? + +Mr. JENNER. The matter of her coming to live with you, the possibility +of her living with you on a more extended basis than---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Was an invitation I had made to her. + +Mr. JENNER. And that her response was not acceptance but one that she +would now defer? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was a "thank you" and a refusal basically. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you respond to that letter? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. My letter is dated July 12. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Liebeler will mark that Commission Exhibit 416, which +consists of how many pages, Mr. Liebeler, three pages. You have that +exhibit. Is that exhibit all in your handwriting? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that the draft of letter to which you have reference +being your response to Marina's letter of---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Undated letter. + +Mr. JENNER. Undated letter which would be somewhere just prior to July +21? + +Mrs. PAINE. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. And is that a draft of letter in the same condition now as +it was when you completed it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you supplied the Commission with a translation of that +letter? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have. + +Mr. JENNER. We will mark as Commission Exhibits 417 and 418 two +exhibits, the first being a one-page exhibit entitled "Translation from +Russian", and the second being a four page photograph of what appears +to be a letter dated July 21, 1963. Directing your attention to Exhibit +418. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Do you find it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you please identify that exhibit? It consists of four +pages. + +Mrs. PAINE. It appears to be a photograph of my letter to her of July +21. + +Mr. JENNER. Having observed it and looked at it last night, is it your +best recollection at the moment that it is a photograph of the letter +that you actually transmitted to Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to the next exhibit which is No. +418---- + +Mrs. PAINE. 417, you are talking about the translation. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that a translation of the letter, of your letter to her? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is far from complete. + +Representative FORD. It is far from complete? + +Mrs. PAINE. Far from complete. It is incomplete. + +Mr. JENNER. I would like to have you make then, directing your +attention to the translation that has been supplied us. + +Mrs. PAINE. It goes as far as two-thirds down on page 2, you must have +more somewhere. + +Mr. JENNER. No; that is all we have. Would you mark with this red +marker pen the point to which Exhibit 417 is a translation? + +Mrs. PAINE. Here. + +Mr. JENNER. Is the translation accurate up to that point or rather do +you have any exceptions to it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. In relation to what? + +Mrs. PAINE. "This would" on the next to the last paragraph "this would +offend my father very much." "This hurt my father", no subjunctive to +it. + +Mr. JENNER. Do it this way. Read what is on it, what the interpreter---- + +Mrs. PAINE. Wait. + +Mr. JENNER. Said. + +Mrs. PAINE. I guess that is just the interpreter trying to "offer you +an alternative". State the question again. You want to know if I take +any exception to the translation I have before me, this portion of my +July 21 letter? They are all small. + +Mr. JENNER. They are small and none of consequence. + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. So far as you are concerned. Your translation, however, +that you supplied the Commission is as far as you are concerned +accurate and what you intend to say, at least? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and I think it is what I said. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. I offer in evidence, if the Chairman please, the +documents that have been marked--may I have them please, Representative +Ford? + +Mrs. PAINE. These, too? + +Mr. JENNER. Documents marked 415, 416, 417, and 418. + +Mr. McCLOY. Do I understand there is not a complete translation? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. McCLOY. Of the letter. It is an incomplete translation? + +Mrs. PAINE. There is a page 2 somewhere. + +Mr. JENNER. That is correct. During the noon hour I will see if that is +not a mistake and if I can be supplied with the balance, if there is a +balance. + +Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted in this form and then you can advise +us after the recess whether there is anything additional to insert at +this point. + +(The documents referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. +415, 416, 417, and 418, were received in evidence.) + +Mr. JENNER. Now, there is a matter to which I would like to draw your +attention in your letter of July 21, which is Commission Exhibit No. +416, the last portion of it, and I direct your attention, in turn, +to your own interpretation appearing at page 3. The last paragraph, +when you brought Marina to New Orleans, did you do anything by way of +seeking to have people in New Orleans visit her? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. I have already testified that after an initial warm +greeting with Lee, they quarreled, and I was uncomfortable there, and +wanted to get back home. I had thought of making contact for Marina +with someone in the Russian speaking community in New Orleans, and +later when I didn't hear from her after this note that looks like "I +will have to go back to Russia after all," I much regretted that I had +not made some contact for her, someone she could talk to, herself. +And anxious, not having heard from her a month from the time of this +appendage to my corrected letter, I telephoned Ruth Kloepfer who is the +clerk of the Quaker Meeting in New Orleans. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you spell her name, please? + +Mrs. PAINE. She is not someone I know. That is spelled K-L-O-E-P-F-E-R, +and I asked her if she knew any Russians in New Orleans. She did not. I +then wrote to Mrs. Paul Blanchard. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, when you use the pronoun "she" there you asked +Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. I asked Mrs. Kloepfer if she knew any Russian-speaking +people and described why I was interested in knowing. I must have given +her the address of Marina, probably asked that she go and see her. In +any case, I have a letter which followed that telephone call, which I +wrote to Mrs. Paul Blanchard. + +Mr. McCLOY. Pardon me, did you say you telephoned to Mrs. Blanchard or +you wrote to Mrs. Blanchard? + +Mrs. PAINE. I wrote to Mrs. Blanchard, I had originally telephoned to +Mrs. Kloepfer. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you make the telephone call when you were in New +Orleans? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; this was when I was concerned. I had not heard from +Marina for a month. I did not know whether she was in good health or +had gone back to the Soviet Union. + +Mr. JENNER. So you called Mrs. Kloepfer in New Orleans? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. After having tried to call the Murrets. I +had not had their name accurately. + +Representative BOGGS. How did you happen to write to Mrs. Blanchard? + +Mrs. PAINE. She is the secretary of the Unitarian Church in New Orleans +and I called the Quaker Church in Dallas to find out who was in New +Orleans of the Quakers, and then I called the Unitarian Church which my +husband belongs to in Dallas to find out who the secretary of the New +Orleans Unitarian Church was. + +Representative BOGGS. You do not know Mrs. Blanchard? + +Mrs. PAINE. I did not know her, and I did not know Mrs. Kloepfer +either, and appended to this that I am leaving with the Commission is +my carbon of a letter to Mrs. Blanchard of the Unitarian Church, which +I sent in carbon to Mrs. Kloepfer so each would know what the other was +doing in an effort to find a Russian-speaking person who could be a +contact for Marina. + +(At this point Representative Ford left the hearing room.) + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you have now mentioned a letter that you wrote +to Mrs. Blanchard; have you supplied the Commission with a carbon copy +of that letter? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have. + +Mr. JENNER. And it is a two-page document, Mr. Chairman, dated July 18, +1963, now marked as Commission Exhibit 419. That exhibit has now been +handed to you, Mrs. Paine. Is that the carbon copy of your letter to +Mrs. Blanchard? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. You did not know Mrs. Blanchard, had never heard of her +prior to the time you wrote the letter? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. It begins saying, "Mrs. Philip Harper, the +secretary of the Dallas Unitarian Church, suggested I write to you when +I told her of the following problem." + +Mr. JENNER. Is the document in the same condition now as it was when +you prepared the original of which that is a carbon copy? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 419 the +document which has been so identified. + +Mr. McCLOY. It may be so admitted. + +(The document referred to was marked for identification as Commission +Exhibit No. 419 and received in evidence.) + +Mrs. PAINE. Will there be any difficulty that it starts with typing and +then it goes carbon? + +Mr. JENNER. Explain that. + +Mrs. PAINE. I wrote two carbon paragraphs and then I thought I should +write a carbon of this to Mrs. Blanchard and put in a carbon and then +in my own copy put in typing. + +Mr. JENNER. So that which appears to be a copy is an original and that +which follows, what appears to be original, is an actual carbon copy of +the letter you actually sent to Mrs. Blanchard? + +Mrs. PAINE. With copy stated here to Mrs. Kloepfer. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you hear from Marina on that subject at any time? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. In her succeeding and last letter that I got from her. + +Mr. JENNER. Her succeeding letter is dated what? + +Mrs. PAINE. It has no date inside. It is postmarked August 11 from New +Orleans and sent to me while I was on vacation. + +Mr. JENNER. We have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 420 the envelope +and attached to 420 is what purports to be a four-page letter in +Russian longhand--may we have this as a group exhibit consisting of the +envelope and the four-page letter? + +Mr. McCLOY. If it is properly attached I guess you can. + +Mrs. PAINE. There is no date on the letter, if they separate you don't +know what it is. + +Mr. JENNER. We have marked the four-page letter as Commission Exhibit +421 in order to avoid any difficulty. + +Directing your attention to Exhibit 421, do you recognize the +handwriting on that exhibit? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is Marina Oswald's handwriting. + +Mr. JENNER. That is a letter to you, is it not? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is. + +Mr. JENNER. And you supplied the Commission with your translation of +that letter? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. + +Mr. JENNER. That appears at pages 13 and 14 of the materials you +furnished me? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that letter in the same condition now as it was when you +received it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; with the exception of an addition in my handwriting on +the bottom of unmarked page 3. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you read that? + +Mrs. PAINE. Which is a translation of one word. + +Mr. JENNER. What word is that? + +Mrs. PAINE. A word means to grow downcast. + +Mr. DULLES. I didn't catch that. + +Mrs. PAINE. To grow downcast, to lose courage. + +Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to the envelope which is marked +Commission Exhibit 420. + +Mrs. PAINE. I want to make one other comment. I underlined the word on +the second page that I have translated as "winsome." + +Mr. JENNER. W-i-n-s-o-m-e? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The other underlinings in her letter are her own. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. Directing your attention to the pink envelope +which is Commission Exhibit No. 420, was Exhibit 421 enclosed in +Exhibit 420? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was. + +Mr. JENNER. That also is in English, that is the address? + +Mrs. PAINE. The address is in English, addressed to me while on +vacation. + +Mr. JENNER. And you received those documents in due course? + +Mrs. PAINE. Which documents? + +Mr. JENNER. You received the documents in due course? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was not forwarded. It was addressed to me where I was. + +Mr. JENNER. But you received them is all I am asking? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes. + +Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits 420 and 421, the +documents which have been so marked. + +Mr. McCLOY. They may be so admitted. + +(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 420 and +421 for identification and received in evidence.) + +Mr. JENNER. There is one item in Exhibit 421 to which I wish to direct +your attention. On the last page about the third paragraph from the +bottom appears the second sentence, "Lee doesn't have work now already +three weeks." Do you find that? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Had you had any information prior to the receipt of this +letter that Lee Oswald no longer was employed in New Orleans? + +Mrs. PAINE. I had no such information. + +Mr. JENNER. This was your first information? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you respond to that letter? + +Mrs. PAINE. I did. + +Mr. JENNER. I have a five-page document Mr. Liebeler is identifying as +Commission Exhibit No. 422. + +Mrs. PAINE. This is not what you want. You want my reply, don't you +next? + +Mr. JENNER. That is right. + +Mrs. PAINE. This is not it. You have my reply but I had had no copy of +that. + +Mr. JENNER. We will keep that exhibit number. There has been identified +as Commission Exhibit 423 an exhibit consisting of four pages, the +first three of which are a photograph of a letter, and the last page of +which is a photograph of an envelope. Handing you Commission Exhibit +No. 423, is that a picture of your letter to Marina Oswald in response +to her letter of August 11? + +Mrs. PAINE. August 11. Yes; it is dated August 24, 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. And you do recognize that as being a picture copy of letter +you had written? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And you supplied the Commission with a translation of that +letter? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not. I did not have this in rough draft. I had no +copy of this. You may have a translation but I do not. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Mrs. PAINE. I supplied you only on this summary that you have with a +brief recollection of what it contained. + +Mr. JENNER. I now hand you a document, Commission Exhibit No. 424 +consisting of two pages which purports to be a translation of Exhibit +423. Did you review that translation with me last evening? + +Mrs. PAINE. Briefly. + +Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection at the moment of what you +said last night that the translation is of Exhibit 423? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is approximately what I recall writing. I didn't look at +the Russian in your pictures. + +Mr. JENNER. During the noon recess would you wish to look at that and +if you have any exception you wish to take to the translation would you +please state it to the Commission? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. McCLOY. May I intervene at this point about Exhibit 422, has that +been properly identified? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; not yet. + +Mr. JENNER. Could we return it to the witness? Exhibit 422 is in whose +handwriting? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is in my handwriting. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that a draft of a letter? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is a letter which I wrote but never sent. + +Mr. JENNER. You testified about that letter yesterday? + +Mrs. PAINE. I did. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you not? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is dated April 7. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you supplied the Commission with a translation, your +translation of that letter? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have with appropriate paragraph before it saying +that it was not sent, that I wrote it not necessarily to send or give +to her but simply to have, I think as I testified yesterday, the words +at my command ready in case it seemed appropriate to make such an +invitation. + +Mr. JENNER. And this was prepared on or about April 7, 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. I would judge on the 7th. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that letter in the same condition now as it was when you +completed writing it? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have added since completing writing, I have added in +pencil at the top, "not sent" in English. It is otherwise the same. + +Mr. JENNER. I won't go into that further, Mr. Chairman, because the +witness did testify about it yesterday other than to offer the document +in evidence. + +Mr. McCLOY. I simply thought it needed a little elaboration. + +Mr. JENNER. You were quite right, sir. + +(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 422 for +identification and received in evidence.) + +Mr. JENNER. Where were you in the summer of 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. May I interrupt. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. Did you want to make any reference to the reference to +Lee's driving in Exhibit 424? + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you very much, Mrs. Paine, and I do want to go into +it. + +Mrs. PAINE. I have it underlined. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Dulles, would you be good enough to let me have it? +This translation which appears as Commission Exhibit 424, the fourth +paragraph reads "Lee told me that he learned a little from his Uncle +how to drive a car. It would be very useful for him to know how to +drive but it is hard to find time for this when he works every day." + +Mrs. PAINE. I might make a comment about that. + +Mr. JENNER. This is your comment, is it not? + +Mrs. PAINE. I might make a comment about that. + +Mr. JENNER. This is your comment, is it not? + +Mrs. PAINE. I wrote that. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, the Commission is very interested in the subject +matter of Mr. Oswald, of Lee Oswald being able to drive a car and +I think it might be well if we covered the whole subject from the +beginning to the end. + +Would you give the Commission your full, most accurate recollection of +this whole subject? Start at the very beginning. + +Mrs. PAINE. I think I learned either in March or April that Lee---- + +Mr. JENNER. Of 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. 1963. + +Mr. JENNER. This would be early in your acquaintance with him? + +Mrs. PAINE. Very early. I learned Lee was not able to drive and didn't +have a license. + +Mr. JENNER. How did you learn he was not able to drive? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think it was related to his looking for work the first +time in the middle of April, and I had learned he had looked in the +Dallas area for work. + +Mr. JENNER. How did you learn it? + +Mrs. PAINE. We were talking about it. + +Mr. JENNER. You were talking with Lee? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he tell you that he was not able to drive a car? + +Mrs. PAINE. That he had never learned how. + +Mr. JENNER. That he had difficulty in getting around? + +Mrs. PAINE. Simply he had never learned how. + +Mr. JENNER. He said this to you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And I felt immediately that his job opportunities, the +jobs to which he could have applied, and the jobs to which he could get +himself would be greatly broadened if he were able to drive and said so. + +Mr. JENNER. You said that to him? + +Mrs. PAINE. And said that to him. Then when we arrived in New Orleans +he said to me by way of almost pride that he had been allowed by his +uncle to drive his uncle's car. + +Mr. JENNER. That is Mr. Murret? + +Mrs. PAINE. I don't know whether there was more than one. + +Mr. JENNER. But he volunteered the statement to you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And it was something that had occurred after he had gotten +to New Orleans? + +Mrs. PAINE. And he was in a sense pleased to report to me that he was +getting some experience driving. That his uncle had permitted him to +drive the car on the street. + +Mr. JENNER. On the street? + +Mrs. PAINE. On the street. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion while you were in New Orleans to +verify that in any respect whatsoever? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Or have it verified to you? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. This was confined to a remark that he made to you? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. Then when I learned in Marina's letter of +August 11 that Lee was out of work, I immediately thought it would +be well for him to make use of those free weekdays, not only for job +hunting but for learning the skill of driving and, therefore, that +paragraph--shall we read it? + +Mr. JENNER. Haven't I already read it? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't think so. + +Mr. JENNER. You mean from your letter? + +Mrs. PAINE. Did you read that? + +Mr. JENNER. The paragraph "Lee told me that he learned a little from +his uncle how to drive a car." + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you read that "It would be very useful for him to know +how to drive but it is hard to find time for this when he works every +day." + +Just to be certain of this, Mrs. Paine, this was a remark made to you +by Lee Harvey Oswald when you brought Marina from Irving, Tex., to New +Orleans, and---- + +Mrs. PAINE. The second week in May. + +Mr. JENNER. The second week in May of 1963. And then, according to the +remark made to you by Lee Harvey Oswald that his uncle had permitted +him to drive his uncle's car on the street in New Orleans? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and he was proud of this. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he ask at that time or any time while you were in New +Orleans in the spring to drive your car? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at all during--did you have the +feeling that he would like to drive the car? + +Mrs. PAINE. There was no discussion of it. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he demonstrate to you that he could drive? + +Mrs. PAINE. There was no discussion of it. + +Mr. JENNER. You have given us all that occurred in New Orleans by +way of conversation or otherwise on the subject of Lee Harvey Oswald +driving an automobile or his ability to drive? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, you are telling us the whole story on this subject. So +when next---- + +Senator COOPER. May I ask this one question? + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. + +Senator COOPER. Did Lee Oswald identify the uncle who permitted him to +drive his car? + +Mrs. PAINE. Senator Cooper, he did not. He just said his uncle. He did +not identify his uncle by name. + +Senator COOPER. Do you know of your own knowledge who the uncle was? + +Mrs. PAINE. I can only assume. + +Senator COOPER. What? + +Mrs. PAINE. I can only assume it was the uncle he had been staying +with. He had been staying at his home. + +Mr. JENNER. You had met the uncle at this time? + +Mrs. PAINE. Just met him. + +Mr. JENNER. So it was the uncle with whom he had been staying just +before he obtained the apartment at Magazine? + +Mr. McCLOY. What is the uncle's name? + +Mr. JENNER. Dutz Murret. This was the relative who had the nice home +that Marina first saw when she arrived there and thought maybe that is +where she was going to live, is that correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Go ahead, Mrs. Paine. + +Mrs. PAINE. You want all other references to driving? + +Mr. JENNER. Confining yourself to his ability to drive automobiles, +when next, and take it in chronological order as to when you next +recall it? + +Mrs. PAINE. It came up next after he returned to the Dallas area in +October. + +Mr. JENNER. When was that? + +Mrs. PAINE. After he returned on the 4th, to my knowledge. + +Mr. JENNER. The 4th of October? + +Mrs. PAINE. That was the first I know. + +Mr. JENNER. We will get into the reasons and the circumstances but you +stick with the automobile incidents. + +Mrs. PAINE. He was looking for work. + +Mr. JENNER. In Dallas? + +Mrs. PAINE. In the Dallas area and again, of course, I felt that he +could find more jobs, be eligible for more if he could drive. + +Mr. JENNER. What did you do about it? + +Mrs. PAINE. I recalled that I had a copy of the regulations for +driving, what you need to know to pass the written test. + +Mr. JENNER. In what State? + +Mrs. PAINE. In the State of Texas, and I gave him that booklet. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you have a discussion with him about your desire, your +recommendation, that he qualify to drive an automobile in Texas so it +would assist him in connection with his job hunting. + +Mrs. PAINE. Probably. We certainly had conversation about it. + +Mr. JENNER. Give us the subject of the conversation in terms of +recommendations by you, or what did you say? + +Mrs. PAINE. I again recommended, as I had in the spring, that he learn +to drive. + +Mr. JENNER. What did he say? + +Mrs. PAINE. He was interested in learning to drive. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything to you? + +Mrs. PAINE. I would like to offer to the Commission something we didn't +get to last night. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. + +Mrs. PAINE. Which is a letter I wrote to my mother, which she just +showed me recently, she just found it recently, which makes reference +to the date I first gave him a lesson in driving. + +Mr. JENNER. That would be helpful to us. May I have the letter, please? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Now only a portion of it is applicable. + +Mr. JENNER. Why don't we give it a number? + +Mrs. PAINE. Another portion is applicable in another connection, which +I would like especially to bring up. + +Mr. JENNER. Having that in mind, we will give that document for +identification at the moment only, the number Commission Exhibit No. +425. + +I won't identify it beyond that for the moment because the witness will +be using it to refresh her recollection. + +Mrs. PAINE. I will read what applies here. + +Mr. JENNER. You are now reading from Commission Exhibit No. 425. + +Mrs. PAINE. Which is a letter dated October 14, in my hand, from me to +my mother. + +Mr. DULLES. Would you give your mother's name? + +Mrs. PAINE. Her name is Mrs. Carol Hyde. + +Representative BOGGS. Where does she live? + +Mrs. PAINE. In Columbus, Ohio. It was likely written to Oberlin, where +she was a student at that time. + +"If Lee can just find work that will help so much. Meantime I started +giving him driving lessons last Sunday (yesterday). If he can drive +this will open up more job possibilities and more locations." + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. I want to comment too on the nature of this lesson. + +Mr. JENNER. The Commission will be interested in that but you go ahead. + +Mrs. PAINE. Now? + +Mr. JENNER. Go right ahead. + +Mrs. PAINE. I knew that he had not even a learner's permit to drive. I +wasn't interested in his driving on the street with my car until he had +such. But on Sunday the parking lot of a neighboring shopping center +was empty, and I am quite certain that is where the driving lesson took +place. + +Mr. JENNER. That is your best present recollection? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Now I recall this also, and it is significant. I +offered him a lesson and intended to drive him to this area for him to +practice. He, however, started the car. + +Mr. JENNER. He got in and started the car? + +Mrs. PAINE. He got in and started the car so that I know he was able to +do that and wanted to drive on the street to the parking lot. + +Mr. JENNER. He wanted to? + +Mrs. PAINE. He wanted to. I said, "My father is an insurance man and he +would never forgive me." + +Mr. JENNER. Your father? + +Mrs. PAINE. My father. And insisted that he get a learner's permit +before he would drive on the street. + +Mr. JENNER. At that moment and at that time he acted, in any event in +your presence, as though he himself thought---- + +Mrs. PAINE. That is right. + +Mr. JENNER. He would be capable of driving an automobile from your home +to the parking area in which you were about to give him a lesson. That +was your full impression, was it not? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I should add that, as I am recalling, he did drive a +portion of the way, he drove in fact, it is about three blocks, to the +parking lot. I was embarrassed to just tell him "No, don't." But I did, +in, effect, on the way there, when he was on the street, driving on the +street in my car, when we got there I said, "Now, I am going to drive +back." I didn't want him to. + +Mr. JENNER. From your home to the parking lot? + +Mrs. PAINE. The first time before we had any lesson at all. And at that +time I made it clear I didn't want him to drive in the street. Also, +it became clear to me in that lesson that he was very unskilled in +driving. We practiced a number of the things you need to know, to back +up, to turn, right angle turn to come to a stop. + +Mr. JENNER. Was this on the parking lot? + +Mrs. PAINE. This was all on a parking lot. + +Mr. DULLES. Did I understand you to say he drove three blocks, was that +all the way to the parking lot? So he drove all the way to the parking +lot? + +Mrs. PAINE. Perhaps a little longer. But a short distance, whatever it +was, to the parking lot, yes. Rather than stopping in midstreet and +changing drivers. Going to turn a right angle---- + +Mr. DULLES. How well did he do on that? + +Mr. McCLOY. That is what she is telling. + +Mrs. PAINE. No; that is a separate answer. + +Mr. JENNER. She is talking about the parking lot. + +Mrs. PAINE. I was very nervous while he was doing it and was not at +all happy about his doing it. I would say he did modestly well; but no +means skilled in coming to a stop and turning a square right angle at a +corner. + +Mr. JENNER. Was there much traffic? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. But then too, I noticed when we got to the parking lot +when he attempted to turn in a right angle he made the usual mistake of +a beginner of turning too much and then having to correct it. He was +not familiar with the delay of the steering wheel in relation to the +wheels, actual wheels of the power---- + +Mr. JENNER. Was it power---- + +Mrs. PAINE. It was not power steering. But it has no clutch so that +makes it a lot easier to drive. + +Mr. JENNER. It is an automatic transmission? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is an automatic transmission. + +Mr. JENNER. Describe your automobile, will you please? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is a 1955 Chevrolet station wagon, green, needing paint, +which we bought secondhand. It is in my name. + +Mr. McCLOY. But automatic transmission? + +Mrs. PAINE. Automatic transmission; yes. + +Then, in the later lessons, I think there were altogether three with +Lee---- + +Mr. JENNER. Have you finished with this lesson on the Sunday morning, +was it? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; it was a Sunday afternoon and I drove back to the house. + +Mr. JENNER. How long did the lesson take on the parking lot? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, 20 minutes, perhaps. I will say of him that he set for +himself tasks; a good student in the sense that he planned now I am +going to back up this way and I am going--one of the problems is to +turn around and go the other way on the street. In other words---- + +Mr. JENNER. U-turn. + +Mrs. PAINE. It is not a U-turn, no. It is a narrower one to head in +back up and go the other way and he would set this problem for himself, +how to do it, back up and do it, and set the problem of backing up, +driving, going back, I mean. And set himself a course. I was doing +this, too, but I was interested in the eagerness he had and his desire +to achieve; desire to do this and do it well. + +In helping himself by setting up these course plans, you could almost +say. + +Mr. JENNER. All right. + +Would you refresh my recollection of the date this occurred? + +Mrs. PAINE. My letter is dated the 14th. I say, "I taught him +yesterday, Sunday." + +Mr. JENNER. Fourteenth of October? + +Mrs. PAINE. Fourteenth of October. So that would have been---- + +Mr. JENNER. That would have been October 7? + +Mrs. PAINE. Thirteenth. + +Senator COOPER. May I ask a question here? + +Mr. McCLOY. Senator Cooper has a question. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes. + +Senator COOPER. On the occasion when you drove with him, did you find +it necessary to show him how to turn on the ignition? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not. + +Senator COOPER. How to take steps to start the car and put it in motion? + +Mrs. PAINE. No, indeed; he had started it before I came out or else he +wouldn't have been in the driver's seat because I didn't want him to +drive on the street. So he had the car ready to go; backed out with a +considerable bump. + +Mr. JENNER. He backed out of the driveway? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am recalling this now, I think so. I recall that he then +didn't attempt to go, I didn't let him, but at one point we practiced +parking on the street in front of my house. + +Mr. JENNER. This was a subsequent occasion? + +Mrs. PAINE. This was a subsequent occasion. But when the lesson was +done he gradually let me turn the car into the driveway. This is +harder and I was glad to do it and he was glad to be relieved of that +requirement. + +Representative BOGGS. Mr. Chairman, I don't want to interrupt this line +of inquiry, but I have to go to a meeting at the Speaker's office and +I can't be back this afternoon, and I wonder if I might ask Mrs. Paine +several questions? + +Mr. McCLOY. By all means. + +Representative BOGGS. Not particularly in this line. + +Where did you first meet Marina. I know you told us. + +Mr. McCLOY. She testified to that yesterday. + +Representative BOGGS. Tell me briefly. + +Mrs. PAINE. At a party of people at the end of February 1963. + +Representative BOGGS. How long was it thereafter that she moved into +your home for the first time? + +Mrs. PAINE. She first came on the 24th of April. + +Representative BOGGS. And she lived there for 2 weeks? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Representative BOGGS. And her husband lived here--her husband was with +her? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. He had already gone on to New Orleans. + +Representative BOGGS. When did she return to your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. She came with me from New Orleans, leaving there the 23d of +September and arriving in Irving the 24th of September. + +Representative BOGGS. And she lived with you in Irving from the 24th of +September until the 23d? + +Mrs. PAINE. The morning of the 23d. + +Representative BOGGS. Of November? + +Mrs. PAINE. She left the morning of the 23d, she left expecting to come +back. + +Representative BOGGS. During that period of time did Lee Oswald live +there? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Representative BOGGS. He visited there on weekends? + +Mrs. PAINE. He visited there on weekends. + +Representative BOGGS. How well did you know Lee Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. Insufficiently well. + +Representative BOGGS. What do you mean by that? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I regret, of course, very deeply that I didn't +perceive him as a violent man. + +Representative BOGGS. You saw no evidence of violence in him at any +time? + +Mrs. PAINE. No, I didn't. He argued with his wife but he never struck +her. I never heard from her of any violence from him. + +Representative BOGGS. Did he ever express any hostility toward anyone +while he was talking with you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Not of a violent or---- + +Representative BOGGS. Did he ever express any political opinions to you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, he called himself a Marxist. He said that on the +occasion after Stevenson had been in town in relation to the United +Nations Day. + +Mr. JENNER. Adlai Stevenson? + +Mrs. PAINE. Adlai Stevenson, and Lee had been to a meeting of the +National Indignation Committee held another night that week, and he was +at our home the following Friday night and commented that he didn't +like General Walker. + +This is the only thing I heard from him on the subject. + +Representative BOGGS. Did he ever express any violence toward General +Walker? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Representative BOGGS. Did he ever discuss President Kennedy with you? + +Mrs. PAINE. He never mentioned Kennedy at all. + +Representative BOGGS. Did you see the rifle that he had in the room in +your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. In the garage, no. + +Representative BOGGS. In the garage, you never saw one? + +Mrs. PAINE. I never saw that rifle at all until the police showed it to +me in the station on the 22d of November. + +Representative BOGGS. Were you at home when the FBI interviewed Marina +and Lee? + +Mrs. PAINE. The FBI never interviewed Marina and me; I was waiting to +hear your question. + +Representative BOGGS. At your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. The FBI never interviewed Marina and Lee at my home. The +FBI was there one afternoon and talked to Marina through me; they never +saw Lee Oswald in my home. I told them he would be there on a weekend. + +Representative BOGGS. Did you ever discuss politics with Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. As close as we would come, I would say, would be what I +have mentioned about Madam Nhu; she was interested in what the family +would do. She also said to me that she thought Khrushchev was a rather +coarse, country person. She said that she admired Mrs. Kennedy a great +deal, and liked, this is all before, liked President Kennedy very much. + +Mr. JENNER. This was all before November 22? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Representative BOGGS. Were you aware of the fact that Lee returned to +your home the night before the assassination? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Representative BOGGS. Were you curious about that in view of the fact +that he seldom came except on weekends? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was the first time he had come without asking permission +to come. He came after he and his wife had quarreled, and Marina and I +said to one another, we took this to be as close as he could come to an +apology, and an effort to make up. + +Representative BOGGS. That was the reason you thought he had come? + +Mrs. PAINE. But I didn't inquire of him. + +Representative BOGGS. You did not know that the next morning when he +left he had a rifle? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Representative BOGGS. Did you see him when he left that morning? + +Mrs. PAINE. No, I didn't. + +Representative BOGGS. Have you been active in politics yourself? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; I vote. And I am a member of the League of Women +Voters, that is the extent of my activity. + +Representative BOGGS. Do you belong to any other political +organizations? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Have you ever belonged? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Representative BOGGS. Are you, I don't know quite how to state this +question, are you a practicing Quaker? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am. I am also a pacifist. + +Representative BOGGS. You are a pacifist? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Representative BOGGS. You are not a Marxist? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; they don't go together, in fact. You can't believe +violent overthrow and be a pacifist. + +Mr. DULLES. Did you know Norman Thomas quite well? + +Mrs. PAINE. When I was 8 I went to a rally of Norman Thomas in New York +City. That was my only contact. + +Representative BOGGS. Is your feeling towards Marina, shall I say in +the Quaker spirit of friendship and hospitality, was that the main +objective, plus the intellectual? + +Mrs. PAINE. I was interested in the language. + +Representative BOGGS. Intellectual stimulation of the language. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I found that while living with her, I could say that +this day, at least added something to what I knew, what I--I learned a +few more words. + +Representative BOGGS. You never formed any opinion about Lee Oswald as +a person? + +Mrs. PAINE. I formed many, and I would like to make that a special area. + +Representative BOGGS. Would you just tell me just in a sentence or two, +I know you could go into it in greater detail, but was your opinion +favorable? Was it unfavorable, or what? + +Mrs. PAINE. I disliked him actively in the spring when I thought he +just wanted to get rid of his wife and wasn't caring about her, wasn't +concerned whether she would go to the doctor. I then found him much +nicer, I thought, when I saw him next in New Orleans in late September, +and this would be a perfectly good time to admit the rest of the +pertinent part of this letter to my mother written October 14, because +it shows something that I think should be part of the public record, +and I am one of the few people who can give it, that presents Lee +Oswald as a human person, a person really rather ordinary, not an ogre +that was out to leave his wife, and be harsh and hostile to all that he +knew. + +But in this brief period during the times that he came out on weekends, +I saw him as a person who cared for his wife and his child, tried to +make himself helpful in my home, tried to make himself welcome although +he really preferred to stay to himself. + +He wasn't much to take up a conversation. This says, "Dear Mom," this +is from Commission Exhibit No. 425, "Lee Oswald is looking for work in +Dallas. Did my last letter say so? Probably not. He arrived a week and +a half ago and has been looking for work since. It is a very depressing +business for him, I am sure. He spent last weekend and the one before +with us here and was a happy addition to our expanded family. He played +with Chris"--my 3-year-old, then 2--"watched football on the TV, planed +down the doors that wouldn't close, they had shifted and generally +added a needed masculine flavor"---- + +Mr. JENNER. Wait a second. + +Mrs. PAINE. "And generally added a needed masculine flavor. From a poor +first impression I have come to like him. We saw the doctor at Parkland +Hospital last Friday and all seems very healthy" and this refers to +Marina. "It appears that charges will be geared to their ability to +pay." + +Representative BOGGS. Were you---- + +Mrs. PAINE. May I go on? + +Representative BOGGS. Yes; surely. Finish. + +Mrs. PAINE. This was an intervening section where he was the most human +that I saw him, and, of course, it has been followed by my anger with +him, and all the feeling that most of us have about his act. But it +seems to me important, very important, to the record that we face the +fact that this man was not only human but a rather ordinary one in many +respects, and who appeared ordinary. + +If we think that this was a man such as we might never meet, a great +aberration from the normal, someone who would stand out in a crowd as +unusual, then we don't know this man, we have no means of recognizing +such a person again in advance of a crime such as he committed. + +The important thing, I feel, and the only protection we have is to +realize how human he was though he added to it this sudden and great +violence beyond---- + +Representative BOGGS. You have no doubt about the fact that he +assassinated President Kennedy? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have no present doubt. + +Representative BOGGS. Do you have any reason to believe he was +associated with anyone else in this act or it was part of a conspiracy? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have no reason to believe he was associated with anyone. + +Representative BOGGS. Did you ever see him talking with anyone else, in +conversation with anybody else or get mail at your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. I never saw him talking with anyone else. He received all +his mail from home, third class for the most part perhaps one letter +from Russia. + +Representative BOGGS. Did he have telephone calls at your home of a +mysterious nature? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, did he ever have a telephone call at your home +mysterious or otherwise? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; never. + +Representative BOGGS. You then would be surprised if he were part of +any group? + +Mrs. PAINE. I would be very surprised. For one thing, I judged, I +had to wonder whether this man was a spy or someone dangerous to our +Nation. He had been to the Soviet Union and he had come back and he +didn't go as a tourist. He went by his own admission intending to +become a Soviet citizen and then came back. + +Representative BOGGS. What about Marina--go ahead and finish. + +Mrs. PAINE. Then the FBI came, as I thought they well might, interested +in this man who had been to the Soviet Union, and I felt that if he had +associations this would be very easy for them to know. I didn't see +any, but would tend to point to the possibility of his being a spy or +subversive. But I didn't see any such and I felt happy that they were +charged with the responsibility of knowing about it. + +Representative BOGGS. Did you see any indication of any connection of +Marina with any group that might be considered unusual? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; no one called her. + +Representative BOGGS. Did she have any letters? + +Mrs. PAINE. She received a letter from a friend in the Soviet Union +which she showed to me and mentioned to me. + +Representative BOGGS. Was this just a normal letter? + +Mrs. PAINE. Girl friend. + +Representative BOGGS. What is your present relationship with Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. I have seen her once since the assassination. That was a +week ago Monday. It was the first time since the morning of the 23d +when she left my house, both of us expecting she would come back to it +that evening. In the intervening period I wrote her a collection of +letters trying to determine what her feelings were and whether it was +suitable for me to write and see her. + +I am presently confused, as I was then, as to how to best be a friend +to her. I don't know what is appropriate in this situation. + +By that I mean during the time I was writing the letters to her and not +getting an answer when she was with Mr. Martin. + +Representative BOGGS. Was your conversation last Monday friendly? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Representative BOGGS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, thank you, Mrs. Paine. + +Mr. McCLOY. Might I ask one question? + +You said that Lee had mentioned General Walker and indicated that he +didn't like General Walker. Can you elaborate on that a little bit, to +what extent, how violent was he in his expression? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; it wasn't violent at all. It was more of, oh, well, +more not giving him much credit even, but it was done briefly, this +was in passing, so my recollection is hazy. But certainly there was no +strong expression. + +Mr. McCLOY. No vehemence about it? + +Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely not, I would have remembered that. And I recall +that Marina said nothing. + +Mr. McCLOY. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. You mentioned that Lee did not receive any calls at your +house. Did he make any telephone calls? + +Mrs. PAINE. I heard him call what he said was the "Time." You know, he +dialed, listened and hung up, and then he told us what time it was. +That is all his social contact. + +Mr. McCLOY. This is only on one occasion that he spoke of General +Walker? + +Mrs. PAINE. Just that one in my hearing, apropos of a discussion that +was already begun. + +Mr. McCLOY. We have rather interrupted the sequence of your questioning. + +Mr. JENNER. That is all right. + +Representative BOGGS. There is one item I might bring out along the +line you were inquiring about. + +You gave some consideration, did you not, Mrs. Paine, during this +period, as to whether Mr. Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald, could or might +have been a Russian agent. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. And we discussed this yesterday, as I recall? + +Mrs. PAINE. Briefly. + +Mr. JENNER. And what conclusions did you come to on that score and why? + +Mrs. PAINE. I thought that he was not very intelligent. I saw as far as +I could see he had no particular contacts. He was not a person I would +have hired for a job of any sort, no more than I would have let him +borrow my car. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you give consideration in that connection? Did his +level of intelligence affect your judgment as to whether the Russian +Government would have hired him? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. How did it affect you? + +Mrs. PAINE. I doubted they would have hired him. I kept my mind open on +it to wonder. + +Mr. JENNER. And you had doubt why? + +Mrs. PAINE. Simply because he had gone to the Soviet Union and +announced that he wanted to stay, and then came back, and I wasn't +convinced that he liked America. + +Mr. JENNER. Did your judgment of him, and as to his level of +intelligence, affect your decision ultimately that the Russian +Government might not or would not have hired him because he was not a +man of capacity to serve in such a way for the Russian Government? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that affected my judgment. + +Mr. DULLES. Have you any idea as to his motivation in the act, in light +of what you have said in the assassination? + +Mrs. PAINE. It is conjecture, of course, but I feel he always felt +himself to be a small person; and he was right. That he wanted to be +greater, or noticed, and Marina had said of him he thinks he is so big +and fine, and he should take a more realistic view of himself and not +be so conceited. + +(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.) + +Mrs. PAINE. And I feel that he acted much more from the emotional +pushings within him than from any rational set of ideas, and---- + +Mr. DULLES. Emotional pushings toward aggrandizement you have in mind +is what you said? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. McCLOY. When you testified earlier this morning, Mrs. Paine, about +the dry sighting of the rifle, you know what dry sighting is, don't you? + +Mrs. PAINE. I found out last night. + +Mr. McCLOY. You found that out last night? + +Senator COOPER. Tell her to describe it then. + +Mrs. PAINE. Shall I try to describe it? See if I know? It involves +holding the rifle and as if to fire and pulling the trigger, but +without any ammunition in it. Going through the motions and, therefore, +wiggling it and having to resight it. + +Representative FORD. Going through the motions? + +Mrs. PAINE. Of ejecting something. + +Senator COOPER. A dry run. + +Mr. JENNER. Is that sufficient, Senator? + +Mrs. PAINE. Do I understand it? + +Mr. McCLOY. That is a pretty good description, it is just as well as I +can give. + +Representative FORD. You actually saw him doing this? + +Mrs. PAINE. No, he showed me last night how it was done. + +Mr. McCLOY. We had testimony this morning whether he had an opportunity +to dry sight the rifle in his New Orleans house. + +Mrs. PAINE. I was just discussing what would be visible in the front of +his house. + +Mr. JENNER. We were having some testimony, Representative Ford, of Lee +Harvey Oswald's dry sighting of the rifle when he was in New Orleans. + +Representative FORD. Marina so testified when she was here. + +Mr. McCLOY. You don't purport to say it was impossible for him to do it +without observation but it was difficult. + +Mrs. PAINE. It was difficult. + +My then 2-year-old boy found a number of boys with trucks to play with +right on that immediate driveway or alley as it is marked on the paper +and small boys would have been very interested and they went right by +there and Marina complained that Junie couldn't get her nap because +there were so many children. + +Mr. McCLOY. He could have done it very early in the morning without +observation? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. DULLES. Have you any idea generally how Lee Oswald used his time, I +mean when you weren't observing him when he wasn't at your house? Did +he talk, tell you how he used his time? Did he use it on television? +What I am trying to get at is--is there a great deal of time he had +available to him that there is no way of knowing what he did. But did +he talk about that, did he give you an idea of what he was, how he +occupied himself, reading, television? + +Mrs. PAINE. Talking just about the time after October 4 when he was---- + +Mr. DULLES. Yes; let's take it in that period. + +Mrs. PAINE. I knew he was occupied with looking for a job. + +Mr. DULLES. Yes. + +Mrs. PAINE. How much of the day this occupied him, of course, I didn't +know. I didn't see him. Then he got the job, and I judge that occupied +him more fully. He spoke of one evening meeting he went to, this +National Indignation Committee meeting. + +Mr. DULLES. What about other evenings? Do you know anything about other +evenings when he wasn't with you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Except for the one in which he accompanied my husband to a +Civil Liberties Union meeting. + +Mr. DULLES. All right. + +Mr. McCLOY. Did you, at any stage of your life while you were, whether +living with your husband or apart from him, did you ever contemplate +inviting anyone to come and live with you in anything like the manner +in which you did invite Marina? + +Mrs. PAINE. My mother completed her studies at Oberlin College in +February, and we talked---- + +Mr. JENNER. February 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; just now, February of 1964 and we talked about the +possibility as long ago as last summer of 1963, we talked about the +possibility of her coming and staying for several months. I said I was +tired of living alone. This is not exactly comparable, but it also is a +search for a roommate. + +Mr. McCLOY. But apart from your mother, there was no one similarly +situated to Marina, whom you thought of inviting to live with you? + +Mrs. PAINE. No one situated similarly that I knew either. + +Mr. McCLOY. No; you didn't invite anyone? + +Mrs. PAINE. Didn't make any other such invitation. + +Mr. McCLOY. Anyone to live with you. + +Mr. JENNER. Before returning to the automobile and somewhat along the +tail end at least of Representative Boggs' inquiries of you, did you +ever give any consideration, Mrs. Paine, to the possibility that Lee +Harvey Oswald might have been employed by some agency of the Government +of the United States? + +Mrs. PAINE. I never gave that any consideration. + +Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever? + +Mrs. PAINE. None whatsoever. + +Mr. JENNER. It never occurred to you at any time? + +Mrs. PAINE. It never occurred to me at any time. + +Mr. JENNER. That is all on that. + +Was the absence of its occurring to you based on your overall judgment +of Lee Harvey Oswald and his lack, as you say, of, not a highly +intelligent man? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. There was some reason why you gave it no thought, is that +correct? + +Mrs. PAINE. That, and he was not in a position to know anything of use +to either Government. I am questioning myself. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you please elaborate? + +Mrs. PAINE. As regards he might be a Soviet agent, what does this +man know that would be of interest to anybody or what could you find +out, and you judge he didn't know anything that the Soviets might +be interested in, and, as I say, I never gave it any thought of the +possibility of his being employed by this Government. + +Mr. JENNER. Now, Representative Ford, Mrs. Paine had been relating to +us her experiences with Lee Harvey Oswald with respect to his ability +to operate an automobile, and she has up to this moment revealed some +things to us which we had not known of and it is something that is +causing the staff considerable concern. This is his ability to drive +which is a proper connection with his visit to Mexico in some one or +two instances and also his escape or his attempted escape and other +elements. + +We interrupted the chronology to have Mrs. Paine state fully everything +she knows on this particular subject. + +Representative FORD. It is important. + +Mr. JENNER. If we can recall just about where you were because I +would like to have you pick it up just exactly where you were in this +chronology. + +Mrs. PAINE. I had about completed the full statement of what I saw of +his driving. + +I will pick up by repeating when he turned a right angle corner +he would turn too far and have to correct. I will complete now by +describing my teaching him to park. + +Mr. JENNER. Was this on that same Sunday afternoon? + +Mrs. PAINE. There were, I think, three altogether, but I am not +certain. This is the only particular reference. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, but I think, Mr. Chairman, Representative Ford, +Mrs. Paine has related to us something we had not known, that this +Sunday afternoon---- + +Mrs. PAINE. October 13. + +Mr. JENNER. October 13, when she sought to instruct Lee Harvey Oswald +on the local parking lot--was it by a shopping center? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. That he had gotten into the car, in the driveway, with the +key, and had turned on the motor of the car, had backed it up into the +street. + +Mrs. PAINE. And then proceeded to drive to the shopping center. + +Mr. JENNER. With Mrs. Paine. + +Mrs. PAINE. While I complained. + +Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine complaining because she was concerned; she is +the daughter of an insurance actuary. + +Mrs. PAINE. In my complaint I simply said that I would drive back, and +that I didn't want him to drive on the street, but I didn't insist that +he stop at that moment. + +Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. + +Mrs. PAINE. I recall one other afternoon when he practiced just parking +directly in front of our house, and when, as I say, after he had done +this he wanted me to drive the car into the driveway, that being a +little harder to do. + +Mr. JENNER. Where did you keep your car ordinarily, in the driveway? + +Mrs. PAINE. Always in the driveway in front of our house; the garage +itself is too full of many other things. + +Mr. JENNER. Did you leave the key in the car? + +Mrs. PAINE. I never leave the key in the car; I always lock it. + +Mr. JENNER. That was your habit with respect to the ignition key? + +Mrs. PAINE. I always lock the car and leave the ignition key in my +purse. + +Mr. JENNER. You never leave the ignition key around your home? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, my purse was in the home. + +Mr. JENNER. So it was not in the open? + +Mrs. PAINE. He had to go in the purse, never. Just how he got the car +started, I recall my shock that he had. But I must have laid out the +key or something because I did not intend for him to start it. + +Mr. JENNER. You didn't give him the key on that occasion to go out and +start the motor? + +Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely not. + +Mr. JENNER. But when you came out of the house he had already started +the motor and backed the car into the street? + +Mrs. PAINE. No, no; I let him back it out. + +Mr. JENNER. You did? + +Mrs. PAINE. I was deciding what I was going to do. + +Mr. DULLES. You were in the car at that time? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I had gotten in the car at that time. + +Representative FORD. And he was in the driver's seat? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Representative FORD. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. Was he in the driver's seat when you came out of the house? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection. Then, referring now to the +practice of his parking. + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Representative Ford, the witness had also +related to us, which we had not known, when she came to New Orleans in +the spring to bring Marina from Irving to New Orleans, that Lee Harvey +Oswald told her that he had driven his uncle's car, one of the Murrets, +in New Orleans on the street. + +Go ahead. + +Representative FORD. Perhaps I should say that I have been absent for +a half hour or so attending a very important committee meeting, so I +didn't get this story from the outset and I appreciate being brought up +to date on it. + +Mrs. PAINE. There were two occasions when we practiced parking, one in +the larger parking lot just backing into, pretending there were cars +there to back between, as in parallel parking, and another occasion +directly in front of my house. On this second occasion directly in +front of my house he finally learned how to do it. He had had a bad +time, getting his wheels too cramped and not getting in, and getting +his wheels straightened out, a beginner's mistakes. + +Finally, I got into the car and told him when to start reversing the +twist on his wheel and cramp, and he said, so soon. It was a surprise. +It didn't feel to him it was time already to start coming out of the +turn. + +And then he saw that it was when he then got into the parking place +correctly, and quite soon got the feel of it but this was clearly his +first experience doing it right, and then he practiced doing it right +several times, and he learned quite well, I thought. + +(At this point, Chief Justice Warren entered the hearing room.) + +Representative FORD. On these subsequent occasions did he ask you to +help him or did he take the keys and do it on his own initiative? + +Mrs. PAINE. No, he never took the keys. I offered to give him--give +Lee lessons on Sunday afternoons and we managed to do it a few Sunday +afternoons, I think three altogether and there were a couple of +weekends when we didn't get the lesson in, something intervened. + +Representative FORD. This was in October of 1963? + +Mrs. PAINE. October and November. I think the last lesson was November +10, being the last Sunday. + +Mr. DULLES. What progress did he make over that period? + +Mrs. PAINE. Considerable. + +Mr. DULLES. Reasonable progress? + +Mrs. PAINE. Very reasonable progress. I thought he learned well, as +I have said, both backing and to make a right-angle turn, and really +began to understand the feeling of parking. + +Representative FORD. Did he indicate to you when he might apply for a +driver's license? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Oh, yes. Thank you. It is a whole new section. + +Mr. JENNER. I was about to go into that. + +Mr. DULLES. There was some testimony on that point, I believe. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Representative FORD. Mr. Frazier testified that Oswald mentioned to him +that he was going to or had, I am not sure which, and I was wondering +whether he mentioned it to you? + +Mr. DULLES. Got in line. + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes, on November 9, which was election day, Saturday, in +Texas. + +Mr. JENNER. This was the weekend he was home? + +Mrs. PAINE. This was the weekend that he was home, which was the last +weekend he was home, don't call it home though. + +Mr. JENNER. I am sorry. It was the last weekend that he was at your +home? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. And he arrived the previous day, evening or late afternoon? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. Now starting with that Friday afternoon, please relate the +course of events? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, I will say that we went Saturday morning to a station +in Dallas where you can take the written test and eye test that permits +you to get a learner's permit, but when we got there--that is all +of us, children, Lee, Marina and myself, driving in my car to Oak +Cliff--when we got there it was closed, being election day. I hadn't +thought, realized that this would mean it would be closed. So we +returned. + +The next weekend---- + +Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, before you reach that. + +Mrs. PAINE. Right. + +Mr. JENNER. Are you reasonably certain that he came home or came to +Irving the previous afternoon? + +Mrs. PAINE. Certainly. + +Mr. JENNER. Perhaps to refresh your recollection, do you remember a +weekend in which Lee Harvey Oswald called from Dallas and said to +Marina that he would not be in that Friday afternoon because he was +going to do some job hunting the next morning, and that he would come +the next day? Could it be that this was that weekend? + +Mrs. PAINE. Well, he had already had a job that weekend, didn't he? +So he wouldn't have been job hunting. I recall he was there in the +morning, Saturday morning. + +Mr. JENNER. Looking for another job? + +Mrs. PAINE. Oh, well, no. + +Mr. JENNER. You don't recall any discussion of his being dissatisfied +with the job at the Texas School Book Depository? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. And was undertaking to look for another job? + +Mrs. PAINE. No. + +Mr. JENNER. There is no discussion? + +Mrs. PAINE. There is one Saturday that he came out later but that +was still in October. It was the second weekend that he came out, +altogether he came out on the weekend of the 4th, so he would have come +out on October 12, Saturday. It doesn't check with my recollection. + +Mr. JENNER. So just to make sure, it is your present recollection that +you can recall no occasion when you were advised by Marina or directly +that Lee Harvey Oswald called and said he would not be in on that +particular Friday but would come the next day? + +Mrs. PAINE. I would be quite certain it was not that weekend. It is +possible that this happened, I don't recall any discussion, nor did I +have any idea that there had been any occasion when he had to look for +a different job. + +Mr. JENNER. Never any discussion on that subject? + +Mrs. PAINE. Never. + +Just to complete the discussion of automobile driving, I will go on to +the next weekend then when he did not come out to my house, but I---- + +Representative FORD. That would be the weekend of the 18th? + +Mrs. PAINE. Just prior to the assassination. The 16th I was having a +birthday party for my little girl and said I couldn't possibly take him +again to this place so he could take a test. But that he didn't need a +car. This was news to him. He thought he needed a car for his initial +test, learner's permit. I said he could go himself from Dallas. + +Mr. JENNER. This was a conversation between you and Lee Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. How did it take place? + +Mrs. PAINE. It must have been by phone. + +Mr. JENNER. Did he call you or did you call him? + +Mrs. PAINE. He called to the house nearly every night around 5:30 to +talk to Marina. And Marina suggested to him that he wouldn't, shouldn't +come out that weekend because I was having a birthday party and it had +been a long weekend, the prior weekend. She didn't want him to wear out +his welcome, and then I said to him he could still try to get---- + +Mr. JENNER. You did talk with him on the telephone? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection. I am certain that I talked with +him, that he was surprised that he didn't need a car. I had to tell him +that he didn't need a car to take with him to take his test. + +Mr. JENNER. Take his initial test? + +Mrs. PAINE. Take his test, and suggested that he go from Dallas himself +to take this test. Then he called us Saturday afternoon of the 16th to +say he had been and tried to get his driver's permit but that he had +arrived before closing time but still too late to get in because there +was a long line ahead of him, the place having been closed both the +previous Saturday for election day and the following Monday, the 11th, +Veterans Day. There were a lot of people who wanted to get permits and +he was advised that it wouldn't pay him to wait in line. He didn't have +time to be tested. + +Mr. JENNER. Could you help us fix, can you recall as closely as +possible the day of the week, this is the weekend of the assassination, +was it not? + +Mrs. PAINE. The weekend before. + +Mr. JENNER. The weekend before, and this conversation you are now +relating that you had with him in which he said that he had gone to +the driver's license station, when did that conversation with you take +place? + +Mrs. PAINE. That conversation was with Marina, and she told me about it. + +Mr. JENNER. When did she tell you about it? + +Mrs. PAINE. He called her, it must have been Saturday afternoon, soon +after he had been, he went Saturday morning and they closed at noon. + +Mr. JENNER. I see. This was the weekend he did not come out to Irving? + +Mrs. PAINE. This was the weekend he did not come out. + +Mr. JENNER. The weekend in which you had your birthday party for your +son was it? + +Mrs. PAINE. It was either that same afternoon or it was possibly +Sunday, I don't recall. It is important though. I wish I could recall +when his call to her was. Since it relates to the problem of when I +dialed his number. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 426 +a form or document which purports to be a driver's permit or driver's +license permit application by Lee Harvey Oswald. It is a one-page form +document on heavy board, or at least heavy paper. + +Are you familiar sufficiently with the handwriting or handprinting +of Lee Harvey Oswald to be able to tell us whether the writing and +handprinting on that document is or is not Lee Harvey Oswald's? + +Mrs. PAINE. I am not sufficiently familiar. I can simply compare it +with the only other thing I have seen in his printing which is what he +wrote down in my diary. + +Mr. JENNER. Refreshing your recollection in that respect and looking at +the exhibit, if you are able to do so, would you give us your opinion +as to whether the exhibit is in the handwriting or handprinting of Lee +Harvey Oswald? + +Mrs. PAINE. I think it very likely is. + +Mr. JENNER. In your short talk with Lee Harvey Oswald on the subject of +his having gone to the license application department in Dallas, was +anything said about his actually having filled out a driver's license +or a learner's permit application? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing. + +Mr. DULLES. Could we have the date of this document? + +Mr. JENNER. If it is dated. My recollection is it is not. + +Mrs. PAINE. His birthday is on it only. Picked up at his room on the +date of the assassination. I guess it was picked up, I don't know. + +Mr. JENNER. Could I review this with you a little bit? Did Lee Harvey +Oswald on this occasion tell you in the course of what limited +telephone conversation you had with him, that he had gone to the +driver's license application bureau? + +Mrs. PAINE. No; he told Marina. + +Mr. JENNER. And did--he told Marina and then Marina in turn told you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. How near the time of the telephone conversation? + +Mrs. PAINE. She told me immediately. + +Mr. JENNER. Did Marina tell you? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. + +Mr. JENNER. She just turned from the phone and told you at once? + +Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. + +Mr. JENNER. This was spontaneous? + +Mrs. PAINE. Yes. It may have been while she was still on the phone, I +don't recall, but it certainly was immediate. + +Mr. JENNER. Mr. Dulles, to answer your question the document is not +dated. + +Representative FORD. I was just noticing in the upper right-hand corner +on the one side he lists his occupation as photographer. + +Mr. JENNER. Yes; this is so. + +Mrs. PAINE. This is what he wanted to do, not what he was doing. + +Mr. JENNER. Would you please relate to the Commission what your +impression of what his occupation was or occupation had been during the +period of time that you had known him? + +Mrs. PAINE. When I first met him he was working at +Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall. And had expressed himself as liking his work. +I gathered that it was a kind of copying or making up of advertising +layout, develop a photographic process. + +When we arrived at New Orleans he pointed to a building where he was +working. I saw no writing on the outside of the building. He said--no, +first on the phone when he first called to say he had a job, he said he +was doing work similar to what he had been doing, photographic type of +work. + +Representative FORD. Work in Dallas? + +Mrs. PAINE. He called to us in Dallas from New Orleans to say he was +doing such work. + +Mr. JENNER. In New Orleans? + +Mrs. PAINE. Subsequently, I have heard it is not so, but this is what +he told Marina and she told me over the phone. He said, and she told me +immediately over the phone, that he was getting $1.50 an hour instead +of $1.25 he had been getting, and then in New Orleans he pointed to +a building where he was working, somewhere along the river, near the +French Quarter, but a big large brick building with no particular +designation on it. I don't know what sort of building it was, but he +said it was the photo outfit where he was working then. + +When he was looking for a job he said, now, in October, early October, +he came back to the Dallas area and he was looking for a job, he said +he was hopeful of getting similar work again, photographic layout, +whatever it was. But that he was pleased to get any job that would +produce an income. + +Mr. DULLES. For the Commission's information, Mr. Jenner, is this not, +that is Exhibit No. 426, a form which Lee Oswald apparently took home, +or filled out somewhere, either his home or at the office, but it was +never sworn to and is not signed. + +Mr. JENNER. That is correct. + +Mr. DULLES. It is not a completed document. It has no date on it. + +Mr. JENNER. It is my information and there will be testimony and that +is why I didn't go into the document, that it was found in his, among +his effects in his room on Beckley Street. With permission, I might +describe the document possibly a little more in detail in view of the +interest and the question. At the top of the document under name there +is hand printing on this form, first the form is entitled "Application +for Texas Driver's License." + +Mrs. PAINE. May I interrupt? + +(Whereupon, at 12:45 o'clock the President's Commission recessed.) + + + + +Transcriber's Notes: + + +Punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant +preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed. + +Misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be +due to mispronunciations were not changed. + +Some simple typographical errors were corrected. + +Inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained. + +Ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained. + +Occasional uses of "Mr." for "Mrs." and of "Mrs." for "Mr." corrected. + +Dubious repeated words, (e.g., "What took place by way of of +conversation?") retained. + +Several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied. + +Occasional periods that should be question marks not changed. + +Occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be +periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at +the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at +the beginning of a line). Some commas and semi-colons were printed so +faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and +corrected, but some almost certainly remain. + +The Index and illustrated Exhibits volumes of this series may not be +available at Project Gutenberg. + +Page 2: Missing opening quotation mark: the fund for the Russian-born +widow had reached $76,000." + +Page 3: "No, I have no recollection of anything that she said?" likely +should end with a period. Punctuation errors like this occur elsewhere +and have not been changed. + +Page 152: "RYW" may be a misprint for "RWY". + +Page 224: "Mr. Ball. It is west of of your house?" repeats "of". + +Page 229: 'Mr. Ball. That is about where you were, a "Z" when he +entered the door' should be 'at "Z"'. + +Page 262: "The Chairman. Mr. Whaley, will you wait outside...." +was printed as "Mr. Chairman...." and has been changed here for +consistency, to make searches more reliable. + +Page 286: Added missing period between "m" and "?": and that is p.m.? + +Page 320: "you have to go the meetings" may be missing "to" after "go". + +Page 320: "She said the thought" probably should be "She said they +thought". + +Page 341: "in the early party of September" probably should be "part". + +Page 363: "a bruise or contusion or ecchymosis" was misprinted as +"eccmymosis"; spelled correctly earlier on the same page. + +Page 364 and elsewhere: "Mr. Specter" misprinted five times as "Mr. +Spector"; corrected here. + +Page 375: "its jacket appears to me to be intact" misprinted as "in +tact"; corrected here. + +Page 383: "exit would labeled B, Exhibit 388" probably should be "exit +wound". + +Page 388: "Mr. Paine. That was in Dallas?" should end with a period, +not with a question mark. + +Page 481: "Does your interpretation" misprinted as "Does you +interpretation"; corrected here. + + + + + + + + +End of the Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (2 of 26): Hearings +Vol. II (of 15), by The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy + +*** END OF THE PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK 44002 *** |