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diff --git a/44001-8.txt b/44001-8.txt deleted file mode 100644 index 703be70..0000000 --- a/44001-8.txt +++ /dev/null @@ -1,49883 +0,0 @@ -The Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (1 of 26): Hearings Vol. -I (of 15), by The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - -This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere at no cost and with -almost no restrictions whatsoever. You may copy it, give it away or -re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included -with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.org - - -Title: Warren Commission (1 of 26): Hearings Vol. I (of 15) - -Author: The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - -Release Date: October 22, 2013 [EBook #44001] - -Language: English - -Character set encoding: ISO-8859-1 - -*** START OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION - HEARINGS V1 *** - - - - -Produced by Curtis Weyant, Charlene Taylor, Charlie Howard, -and the Online Distributed Proofreading Team at -http://www.pgdp.net. Images generously provided by -www.history-matters.com. - - - - - - - - - -Transcriber's note: A three-page list of Exhibit numbers has been -omitted from this eBook. - - - - - INVESTIGATION OF - THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY - - HEARINGS - Before the President's Commission - on the Assassination - of President Kennedy - -PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, an Executive order creating a -Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating -to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the -subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and -S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon -the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine -witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas - -_Volume_ I - - -UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE - -WASHINGTON, D.C. - - -U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964 - -For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. -Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402 - - - - - PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION - ON THE - ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY - - - CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_ - - SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL - SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER - REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS - REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD - MR. ALLEN W. DULLES - MR. JOHN J. McCLOY - - - J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_ - - - _Assistant Counsel_ - - FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS - JOSEPH A. BALL - DAVID W. BELIN - WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr. - MELVIN ARON EISENBERG - BURT W. GRIFFIN - LEON D. HUBERT, Jr. - ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr. - WESLEY J. LIEBELER - NORMAN REDLICH - W. DAVID SLAWSON - ARLEN SPECTER - SAMUEL A. STERN - HOWARD P. WILLENS[A] - -[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the -Department of Justice. - - - _Staff Members_ - - PHILLIP BARSON - EDWARD A. CONROY - JOHN HART ELY - ALFRED GOLDBERG - MURRAY J. LAULICHT - ARTHUR MARMOR - RICHARD M. MOSK - JOHN J. O'BRIEN - STUART POLLAK - ALFREDDA SCOBEY - CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr. - - -Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found -in the Commission's _Report_. - - - - -Foreword - - -On November 29, 1963, President Lyndon B. Johnson signed Executive -Order No. 11130, creating a Commission "to ascertain, evaluate and -report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late -President John F. Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man -charged with the assassination." By the same Executive order, the -President appointed seven Commissioners: Earl Warren, Chief Justice of -the United States; Richard B. Russell, Democratic Senator from Georgia; -John Sherman Cooper, Republican Senator from Kentucky; Hale Boggs, -Democratic Congressman from Louisiana and House Majority Whip; Gerald -R. Ford, Republican Congressman from Michigan; Allen W. Dulles, former -Director of the Central Intelligence Agency; and John J. McCloy, former -High Commissioner of Germany. The President designated Chief Justice -Warren as the Commission's Chairman. The findings of the Commission, -based on an examination of all the facts, are set forth in the -separate volume entitled "Report of the President's Commission on the -Assassination of President Kennedy." - -An essential part of the investigation conducted by this Commission -has been the securing of sworn testimony from witnesses possessing -information relevant to the inquiry. This testimony has been taken -under the authority of Senate Joint Resolution 137 (88th Cong., 1st -sess.), enacted by Congress on December 13, 1963, which conferred -upon the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, -examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas. Under the -procedures adopted by the Commission, some witnesses have appeared -before members of the Commission, others have been questioned under -oath on depositions by members of the staff, and others have provided -affidavits to the Commission. Beginning with its first witness on -February 3, 1964, the Commission under these procedures took the -testimony of approximately 550 witnesses and received more than 3,100 -exhibits into evidence. - -The testimony and exhibits obtained by the Commission are printed in -this and the succeeding volumes, organized in the following order: - - (1) Testimony before members of the Commission, in the order in - which it was taken. - - (2) Testimony by sworn deposition or affidavit, grouped into - four general subject categories; the medical attention given to - the President and the Governor, identification of the assassin - of President Kennedy, the background of Lee Harvey Oswald, and - the killing of Lee Harvey Oswald by Jack L. Ruby on November - 24, 1963. - - (3) Exhibits introduced in connection with the testimony before - the Commission in numerical order. - - (4) Exhibits introduced in connection with sworn depositions - and affidavits, grouped alphabetically by name of witness. - - (5) Other exhibits introduced before the Commission in - numerical order. - -The transcripts of this testimony, prepared by qualified court -reporters, were reviewed by members of the Commission staff and, in -most instances, by the witness concerned. Editing of the transcript -prior to printing in these volumes was confined to correction of -stenographic errors and punctuation, and minor changes designed to -improve the clarity and accuracy of the testimony. In the few cases -indicated, brief deletions have been made of material which might be -considered in poor taste and is clearly irrelevant to any facet of -the Commission's investigation. All the original transcripts prepared -by the court reporters, of course, have been preserved and will be -available for inspection under the same rules and regulations which -will apply to all records of this Commission. - -Each volume contains a brief preface discussing the contents of the -volume. In addition, each volume of testimony contains a table of -contents with the names of the witnesses whose testimony appears in the -volume, and the numbers of the exhibits introduced in connection with -that testimony. Each volume of exhibits contains a table of contents -with short descriptions of the exhibits reproduced in the volume. -Volume XV contains a name index setting forth all references to persons -(other than Lee Harvey Oswald) appearing in the Hearings volumes and -an index setting forth all references to Commission exhibits and -Deposition exhibits in these volumes. - - - - -Preface - - -The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume I: Mrs. -Marina Oswald, the widow of Lee Harvey Oswald; Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, -Oswald's mother; Robert Edward Lee Oswald, Oswald's brother; and James -Herbert Martin, who acted for a brief period as Mrs. Marina Oswald's -business manager. - - - - -Contents - - - Page - Foreword v - - Preface vii - - Testimony of-- - Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald 1 - Mrs. Marguerite Oswald 126 - Robert Edward Lee Oswald 264 - James Herbert Martin 469 - - -COMMISSION EXHIBITS INTRODUCED - - -Transcriber's Note: Three pages of Exhibit numbers have been omitted -from this eBook. - - - - -Hearings Before the President's Commission - -on the - -Assassination of President Kennedy - - - - -_Monday, February 3, 1964_ - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD - -The President's Commission met at 10:35 a.m. on February 3, 1964, at -200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. - -Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman -Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and -Allen W. Dulles, members. - -Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; John M. Thorne, -attorney for Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald; William D. Krimer and Leon I. -Gopadze, interpreters. - - -The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mrs. Oswald, did you have a good trip here? - -The Commission will come to order, and at this time, I will make -a short statement for the purpose of the meeting. A copy of this -statement has been given to counsel for Mrs. Oswald, but for the -record, I should like to read it. - -On November 29, 1963, President Lyndon B. Johnson issued Executive -Order No. 11130 appointing a Commission "to ascertain, evaluate, -and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late -President John F. Kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of the man -charged with the assassination." - -On December 13, 1963, Congress adopted Joint Resolution S.J. 137 which -authorizes the Commission, or any member of the Commission or any agent -or agency designated by the Commission for such purpose to administer -oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, excuse me, the interpreter---- - -The CHAIRMAN. I understood they have a copy and if they want to at the -end he may do that. - -On January 21, 1964, the Commission adopted a resolution authorizing -each member of the Commission and its General Counsel, J. Lee Rankin, -to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive -evidence concerning any matter under investigation by the Commission. - -The purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of Mrs. Marina -Oswald, the widow of Lee Harvey Oswald who, prior to his death, -was charged with the assassination of President Kennedy. Since the -Commission is inquiring fully into the background of Lee Harvey Oswald -and those associated with him, it is the intention of the Commission -to ask Mrs. Marina Oswald questions concerning Lee Harvey Oswald and -any and all matters relating to the assassination. The Commission -also intends to ask Mrs. Marina Oswald questions relating to the -assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of -Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mrs. Marina Oswald has been furnished with a copy of this statement -and a copy of the rules adopted by the Commission for the taking -of testimony or the production of evidence. Mrs. Marina Oswald has -also been furnished with a copy of Executive Order No. 11130 and -Congressional Resolution S.J. Res. 137 which set forth the general -scope of the Commission's inquiry and its authority for the examining -witnesses and the receiving of evidence. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, do you have an attorney, a lawyer? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -The CHAIRMAN. And your lawyer is Mr. Thorne? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -The CHAIRMAN. He is the only lawyer you wish to represent you here? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -The CHAIRMAN. And may I ask you, Mr. Thorne, if you have received a -copy of this? - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, that is the copy he received there. - -Mr. THORNE. I have read a copy of it, Mr. Chief Justice, yes, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Are there any questions about it? - -Mr. THORNE. There are no questions. - -The CHAIRMAN. Very well. - -Very well, we will proceed to swear Mrs. Oswald as a witness. - -Will you please rise, Mrs. Oswald. - -(The Chairman administered the oath to the witness, Mrs. Oswald, -through the interpreter.) - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Reporter, will you rise, please, and be sworn. - -(The Chairman administered the oath to the interpreter and the -stenotype reporter, following which all questions propounded to the -witness and her answers thereto, were duly translated through the -interpreter.) - -The CHAIRMAN. Now, Mr. Thorne and Mrs. Oswald, I want to say to you -that we want to see that Mrs. Oswald's rights are protected in every -manner and you are entitled to converse with her at any time that -you desire. You are entitled to give her any advice that you want, -either openly or in private; if you feel that her rights are not being -protected you are entitled to object to the Commission and have a -ruling upon it, and at the conclusion of her testimony if you have any -questions that you would like to ask her in verification of what she -has said you may feel free to ask them. - -After her testimony has been completed, a copy will be furnished to you -so that if there are any errors, corrections or omissions you may call -it to our attention, is that satisfactory to you? - -Mr. THORNE. Very satisfactory, Mr. Chairman. - -The CHAIRMAN. I might say also to her we propose to ask her questions -for about 1 hour, and then take a short recess for her refreshment, and -then we will convene again until about 12:30. At 12:30 we will recess -until 2 o'clock, and then we may take her to her hotel where she can -see her baby and have a little rest, and we will return at 2 o'clock, -and we will take evidence until about 4:30. If at any time otherwise -you should feel tired or feel that you need a rest, you may feel free -to say so and we will take care of it. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you. - -The CHAIRMAN. The questions will be asked of you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, -who is the general counsel of the Commission. - -I think now we are ready to proceed, are we not, Mr. Rankin? - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, you be at your ease, and the interpreter will -tell you what I ask and you take your time about your answers. - -Will you state your name, please? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Marina, my name is Marina Nikolaevna Oswald. My maiden -name was Prussakova. - -Mr. RANKIN. Where do you live, Mrs. Oswald? - -Mrs. OSWALD. At the present time I live in Dallas. - -Mr. RANKIN. And where in Dallas? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Thorne knows my address. - -Mr. THORNE. 11125 Ferrar Street, Dallas, Dallas County, Tex. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you live with friends there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I live with Mr. Jim Martin and his family. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, do you have a family? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I have two children, two girls, June will be 2 years old -in February, and Rachel is 3 months old. - -Mr. RANKIN. Are you the widow of the late Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, did you write in Russian a story of your -experiences in the United States? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I have. I think that you are familiar with it. - -Mr. RANKIN. You furnished it to the Commission, did you not, or a copy -of it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe for the Commission how you prepared this -document in Russian that you furnished to us? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I wrote this document not specifically for this -Commission, but merely for myself. Perhaps there are, therefore, not -enough facts for your purpose in that document. This is the story of my -life from the time I met him in Minsk up to the very last days. - -Mr. RANKIN. And by "him" who did you mean? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any assistance in preparing this document in -Russian? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, no one. - -Mr. RANKIN. Are all the statements in that document true insofar as you -know? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Since your husband's death and even back to the time of the -assassination of President Kennedy, you have had a number of interviews -with people from the Secret Service and the FBI, have you not? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I did. - -Mr. RANKIN. We have a record of more than 46 such interviews, and I -assume you cannot remember the exact number or all that was said in -those interviews, is that true? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know how many there were. - -Mr. RANKIN. As far as you can recall now, do you know of anything that -is not true in those interviews that you would like to correct or add -to? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I would like to correct some things because not -everything was true. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. It is not just that it wasn't true, but not quite exact. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall some of the information that you gave in -those interviews that was incorrect that you would like to correct now? -Will you tell us that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. At the present time, I can't remember any specific -instance, but perhaps in the course of your questioning if it comes up -I will say so. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the date that you arrived in the United -States with your husband, Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mrs. OSWALD. On the 13th of June, 1962--I am not quite certain as to -the year--'61 or '62, I think '62. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did you come to this country? - -Mrs. OSWALD. From Moscow via Poland, Germany, and Holland we came to -Amsterdam by train. And from Amsterdam to New York by ship, and New -York to Dallas by air. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the name of the ship on which you came? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was the SS _Rotterdam_ but I am not sure. - -Mr. RANKIN. What time of the day did you arrive in New York? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It was--about noon or 1 p.m., thereabouts. It is hard to -remember the exact time. - -Mr. RANKIN. How long did you stay in New York at that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. We stayed that evening and the next 24 hours in a hotel in -New York, and then we left the following day by air. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the name of the hotel where you stayed? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know the name of the hotel but it is in the Times -Square area, not far from the publishing offices of the New York Times. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you do during your stay in New York? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That evening we just walked around the city to take a look -at it. In the morning I remained in the hotel while Lee left in order -to arrange for tickets, and so forth. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you visit anyone or have visitors at your hotel during -that period? - -Mrs. OSWALD. We didn't have any visitors but I remember that with Lee -we visited some kind of an office, on official business, perhaps it had -something to do with immigration or with the tickets. Lee spoke to them -in English and I didn't understand it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Would that be a Travelers' Aid Bureau or Red Cross? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not you or your husband received any -financial assistance for the trip to Texas at that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know exactly where Lee got the money, but he said -that his brother Robert had given him the money. But the money for the -trip from the Soviet Union to New York was given to us by the American -Embassy in Moscow. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what time of the day you left on the flight -to Texas? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think that by about 5 p.m. we were already in Texas. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you go to Dallas or Fort Worth at that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. In Dallas we were met by the brother, Robert, he lived in -Fort Worth, and he took us from Dallas to Fort Worth and we stopped at -the house. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who else stayed at Robert's house at that time besides your -family? - -Mrs. OSWALD. His family and no one else. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did his family consist of at that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He and his wife and two children, a boy and a girl. - -Mr. RANKIN. How long did you stay at Robert's? - -Mrs. OSWALD. About 1 to 1-1/2 months--perhaps longer, but no longer -than 2 months. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were your relations and your husband's with Robert pleasant -at that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, they were very good. His brother's relationship to us -was very good. - -Mr. RANKIN. Would you briefly describe what you did during that time -when you were at Robert's? - -Mrs. OSWALD. The first time we got there we were, of course, resting -for about a week, and I was busy, of course, with my little girl who -was then very little. And in my free time, of course, I helped in the -household. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband do anything around the house or did he -seek work right away? - -Mrs. OSWALD. For about a week he was merely talking and took a trip to -the library. That is it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Then did he seek work in Fort Worth? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And when did he find his first job there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. While we were with Robert. It seems it was at the end of -the second month that Lee found work. But at this time I don't remember -the date exactly but his mother who lived in Fort Worth at that time -rented a room and she proposed that we spend some time with her, that -we live with her for some time. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss with your husband this proposal of your -mother-in-law to have you live with her? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, she made the proposal to my husband, not to me. Of -course, I found out about it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you and he have any discussion about it after you found -out about it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course. - -Mr. RANKIN. You recall that discussion? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. I only remember the fact. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he find work after you left Robert's then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. You did move to be with your mother-in-law, lived with her -for a time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, about 3 weeks. And then after 3 weeks Lee did not -want to live with her any more and he rented an apartment. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know the reason why he did not want to live there -any more? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It seemed peculiar to me and didn't want to believe it but -he did not love his mother, she was not quite a normal woman. Now, I -know this for sure. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you that at the time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He talked about it but since he spoke in English to his -mother, I didn't understand it. There were quite a few scenes when -he would return from work he didn't want to talk to her. Perhaps she -thought I was the reason for the fact that Lee did not want to talk to -her. And, of course, for a mother this is painful and I told him that -he should be more attentive to his mother but he did not change. I -think that one of the reasons for this was that she talked a great deal -about how much she had done to enable Lee to return from Russia, and -Lee felt that he had done most of--the greatest effort in that respect -and didn't want to discuss it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Where did he find work at that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Of course, if I had been told now I would have remembered -it because I have learned some English but at that time I didn't know, -but Lee told me that it wasn't far from Mercedes Street where we lived, -and it was really common labor connected with some kind of metal work, -something for buildings. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever say whether he enjoyed that work? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't like it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall how long he stayed at that job? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know but it seemed to me that he worked there for -about 3 or 4 months. Perhaps longer. Dates are one of my problems. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he left that job voluntarily or was -discharged? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He told me that he had been discharged but I don't know -why. - -Mr. RANKIN. When you left the mother-in-law's house where did you go? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I have already said that we moved to Mercedes Street. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have an apartment there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, we rented an apartment in a duplex. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the address on Mercedes Street? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't remember the exact number. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe the apartment, how many rooms it had? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Living room, kitchen, bath, and one bedroom. - -Mr. RANKIN. This was the first time since you had come to this country -then that you had an opportunity to have a home of your own, is that -right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, we had our own home in Russia. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband work a full day at that time on this job? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sometimes he even worked on Saturdays. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you do when he came home, did he help you with -housework? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He frequently went to a library. He read a great deal. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any of the books that he read at that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. I only know that they were books more of a historical -nature rather than fiction or literature. - -Mr. RANKIN. In your story in Russian you relate the fact that he read a -great deal of the time. Could you describe to the Commission just how -that was? Did he go off by himself to read or how did he handle that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He would bring a book from a library, sit in the living -room and read. I was busy with housework, and that is the way it -happened. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have differences between you about the time that he -spent reading rather than devoting it to you or the other members of -the family? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. We did have quarrels about his relationship to his -mother, the fact that he didn't want to change his relationship to his -mother. I know that he read so much that when we lived in New Orleans -he used to read sometimes all night long and in order not to disturb me -he would be sitting in the bathroom for several hours reading. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your quarrels start at that time when you were at -Mercedes Street the first time. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, we didn't have many quarrels. - -Mr. RANKIN. When you were at Mercedes Street did you have Robert visit -you or did you visit him? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, he came to us sometimes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall seeing any guns at Mercedes Street while you -were there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your mother-in-law come to see you at Mercedes Street? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe the relationship between your husband and -your mother-in-law while he was at Mercedes Street? - -Mrs. OSWALD. She did not want us to move away to Mercedes Street, and -Lee did not want to remain with her and did not even want her to visit -us after that. Lee did not want her to know the address to which we -were moving and Robert helped us in the move. I felt very sorry for -her. Sometime after that she visited us while Lee was at work and I was -quite surprised wondering about how she found out our address. And then -we had a quarrel because he said to me, "Why did you open the door for -her, I don't want her to come here any more." - -Mr. RANKIN. During this period did your husband spend much time with -the baby, June? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He loved children very much. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you obtain a television set at that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Lee wanted to buy a television set on credit. He then -returned it. Should I speak a little louder? - -Mr. RANKIN. Did Robert help any with the money or just in guaranteeing -the payments? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think that he only guaranteed the payments. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall how much the television set cost? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. So far as you know it was paid for out of your husband's -income? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were you still at Mercedes Street when he lost his job with -the welding company? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he try to find another job in Fort Worth then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know how much he looked for jobs before he found one -then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He looked for work for some time but he could not find -it and then some Russian friends of ours helped him find some work in -Dallas. - -Mr. RANKIN. How long was he out of work? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me it was about 2 weeks; hard to remember, -perhaps that long. - -Mr. RANKIN. Where did he find work in Dallas, do you remember the name? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I know it was some kind of a printing company which -prepares photographs for newspapers. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was he working with the photographic department of that -company? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was he an apprentice in that work trying to learn it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, at first he was an apprentice and later he worked. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what his income was when he was working for the -welding company? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was about $200 a month, I don't know. I know it -was a dollar and a quarter an hour. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he work much overtime at that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Not too much but sometimes he did work Saturdays. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall how much he received as pay at the printing -company? - -Mrs. OSWALD. A dollar forty an hour. - -Mr. RANKIN. How many hours did he work a week, do you recall? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He usually worked until 5 p.m. But sometimes he worked -later, and on Saturdays, too. - -Mr. RANKIN. The ordinary work week at that time was the 5-day week -then, and the Saturdays would be an overtime period? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who were the Russian friends who helped your husband find -this job in Dallas? - -Mrs. OSWALD. George Bouhe. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did this friend and other Russian friends visit you at -Mercedes Street? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. When we lived at Fort Worth we became acquainted with -Peter Gregory, he is a Russian, he lives in Fort Worth and through him -we became acquainted with others. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us insofar as you recall, the friends that -you knew in Fort Worth? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Our first acquaintance was Gregory. Through him I met Gali -Clark, Mrs. Elena Hall. That is all in Fort Worth. And then we met -George Bouhe in Dallas, and Anna Meller, and Anna Ray and Katya Ford. - -Mr. RANKIN. By your answer do you mean that some of those people you -met in Dallas and some in Fort Worth? - -Mrs. OSWALD. George De Mohrenschildt--this was both in Fort Worth and -Dallas, the names of my recital but they were well acquainted with each -other, even though some lived in Dallas and some lived in Fort Worth. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you please sort them out for us and tell us those you -met in Dallas? - -Mrs. OSWALD. You mean by the question, who out of these Russians lives -in Dallas? - -Mr. RANKIN. Or which ones you met in Dallas as distinguished from those -you had already met in Fort Worth? - -Mrs. OSWALD. In Fort Worth I met the people from Dallas. There was -George Bouhe, George De Mohrenschildt--no. Anna Meller and George Bouhe -only, they were from Dallas, but I met them in Fort Worth. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did these friends visit you at your home in Fort Worth? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sometimes they came to visit us when they were in -Dallas, they came to us. Sometimes they made a special trip to come and -see us. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever visit them in their homes? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, when we lived in Fort Worth we went to Dallas several -times to visit them. - -Mr. RANKIN. When you made these visits did you go to spend an evening -or a considerable part of the time or were they short visits? Can you -describe that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. We used to come early in the morning and leave at night. -We would spend the entire day with them. We went there by bus. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have an automobile of your own at any time during -this period? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did any of these people have meals in your home when they -visited you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. They usually brought--they usually came for short -visits and they brought their own favorite vegetables such as -cucumbers, George liked cucumbers. - -Mr. RANKIN. When you moved to Dallas, where did you live the first time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I did not move to Dallas together with Lee. Lee went to -Dallas when he found the job, and I remained in Fort Worth and lived -with Elena Hall. - -Mr. RANKIN. For how long a period did you live with Mrs. Hall? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think that it was about a month and a half. - -Mr. RANKIN. During that month and a half what did your husband do? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He had a job. He was working. He would call me up over the -telephone but how he spent his time, I don't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know during that month and a half where he lived? - -Mrs. OSWALD. At first, I know that he rented a room in the YMcA but -very shortly thereafter he rented an apartment. But where I don't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. During that month and a half did he come and see you and -the baby? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, two or three times he came to see us because he had -no car. It was not very easy. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were these trips to see you on the weekends? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. When he came did he also stay at the Hall's? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. When you were staying at the Hall's did you pay them for -your room and your meals? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. No, she was very friendly toward us and she tried to -help us. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you and your husband do when he came to see you? -Did he spend his time with you there in the home or did you go some -place? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, we didn't go anywhere. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he do any reading there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. I remember that it was only a couple of times that he -came for a weekend. Generally, he only came for a very short period of -time, because he would come together with our friends, and they could -not stay very long. - -Mr. RANKIN. When he came during that period did he discuss what he had -been doing in Dallas, his work and other things? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He liked his work very much. - -Mr. RANKIN. After this month and a half did he find a place for you all -to live together? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, but it wasn't a problem there to find a place, no -problem there to find a place. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you then move to a home in Dallas? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, on Elsbeth, Elsbeth Street in Dallas. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember the number? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did you move your things from Mrs. Hall's to the place -on Elsbeth Street? - -Mrs. OSWALD. A friend who had a car helped us--I don't remember his -name, Taylor, Gary Taylor. - -The CHAIRMAN. Suppose we take a recess now for about 10 minutes to -allow Mrs. Oswald to refresh herself. - -(Short recess.) - -The CHAIRMAN. The Commission may be in order. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did that require one or more trips to move your things from -Fort Worth to Dallas when you went to Elsbeth Street? - -Mrs. OSWALD. One trip was enough. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you observe any guns in your things when you moved? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. What kind of place did you have at Elsbeth Street, was it -rooms or an apartment? - -Mrs. OSWALD. An apartment. - -Mr. RANKIN. How many rooms in the apartment? - -Mrs. OSWALD. One living room, a bedroom, a kitchen, and the bathroom. -It sounds very small for all of you but for us it was quite sufficient. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a telephone there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what rent you paid? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me that it was $60, plus the utilities. - -Mr. RANKIN. That would be $60 a month? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, and electricity and gas but the water was free. Sixty -dollars a month including water. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband help you with the housework at that -address? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he always helped. - -Mr. RANKIN. What about his reading habits there, were they the same? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, about the same. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us a little more fully about his reading? Did -he spend several hours each evening in this reading? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any of the books that he read at Elsbeth -Street? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. He had two books, two thick books on the history of -the United States. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband come home for a midday meal? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you go out in the evenings? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Where did you go? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Sometimes we went shopping to stores, and movies, though -Lee really went to the movies himself. He wanted to take me but I did -not understand English. Then on weekends we would go to a lake not far -away or to a park or to a cafe for some ice cream. - -Mr. RANKIN. When you went to the lake or the park did you take food -with you and have a picnic? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did you get to the lake or the park, by bus or car, or -what means of transportation? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It was only 10 minutes away, 10 minutes walking time from -us. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were either you or your husband taking any schooling at -that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Lee took English courses or typing courses. - -Mr. RANKIN. During what days of the week were these typing courses? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It was three days a week. I don't remember exactly what -the days were. It seems to me it was 1 day at the beginning of the week -and 2 days at the end of the week that he took these night courses. - -Mr. RANKIN. Would it help you to recall if I suggested they were -Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me that is the way it was. I know it was on -Monday. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what hours of the evening he was supposed to -be at these classes? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It seems that it was from 7 until 9. - -Mr. RANKIN. About what time would he get home from work? - -Mrs. OSWALD. About 5 to 5:30. - -Mr. RANKIN. Then would you eat your evening meal? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. How soon after that would he leave for the class? - -Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee took his courses he generally did not come home -for dinner, usually he didn't. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he practice his typewriting at home at all? - -Mrs. OSWALD. At home, no. But he had a book, a textbook on typing which -he would review when he was at home. - -Mr. RANKIN. How soon after the class was over did he come home -ordinarily? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Nine o'clock. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you anything about friends that he met at these -classes? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. While you were at Elsbeth Street do you recall seeing any -guns in your apartment? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember exhibiting any guns to the De -Mohrenschildt's while you were at Elsbeth Street? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That was on Neely Street, perhaps you are confused, this -was on Neely Street. - -Mr. RANKIN. When did you move to Neely Street from the Elsbeth Street -apartment? - -Mrs. OSWALD. In January after the new year. I don't remember exactly. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember why you moved from Elsbeth to Neely Street? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I like it better on Neely Street. We had a porch there and -that was more convenient for the child. - -Mr. RANKIN. What size apartment did you have on Neely Street? - -Mrs. OSWALD. The same type of apartment. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was the only difference the terrace then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, except that it was on the second floor. It was a -second-floor apartment. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was the Elsbeth Street apartment a first-floor apartment? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. What about the rent? Was there a difference in rent between -the two places? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, it was the same rent. It is perhaps even less. It -seems to me it was $55. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any differences with your husband while you -were at Neely Street? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. Well, there are always some reasons for some quarrel -between a husband and wife, not everything is always smooth. - -Mr. RANKIN. I had in mind if there was any violence or any hitting of -you. Did that occur at Neely Street? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. That was on Elsbeth Street. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what brought that about? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Not quite. I am trying to remember. It seems to me that it -was at that time that Lee began to talk about his wanting to return to -Russia. I did not want that and that is why we had quarrels. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have discussions between you about this idea of -returning to Russia? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Lee wanted me to go to Russia. I told him that -that--Lee wanted me to go to Russia, and I told him that if he wanted -me to go then that meant that he didn't love me, and that in that case -what was the idea of coming to the United States in the first place. -Lee would say that it would be better for me if I went to Russia. I did -not know why. I did not know what he had in mind. He said he loved me -but that it would be better for me if I went to Russia, and what he had -in mind I don't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know when he first started to talk about your going -to Russia? - -Mrs. OSWALD. On Elsbeth Street. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember any occasion which you thought caused him -to start to talk that way? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why he started to hit you about that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Now, I think that I know, although at that time I didn't. -I think that he was very nervous and just this somehow relieved his -tension. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you observe sometime when you thought he changed? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I would say that immediately after coming to the United -States Lee changed. I did not know him as such a man in Russia. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe how you observed these changes and what -they were as you saw them? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He helped me as before, but he became a little more of a -recluse. He did not like my Russian friends and he tried to forbid me -to have anything to do with them. - -He was very irritable, sometimes for a trifle, for a trifling reason. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you why he did not like your Russian friends? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know why he didn't like them. I didn't understand. -At least that which he said was completely unfounded. He simply said -some stupid or foolish things. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us the stupid things that he said? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, he thought that they were fools for having left -Russia; they were all traitors. I would tell him he was in the same -position being an American in America but there were really no reasons -but just irritation. He said that they all only like money, and -everything is measured by money. It seems to me that perhaps he was -envious of them in the sense they were more prosperous than he was. -When I told him, when I would say that to him he did not like to hear -that. - -Perhaps I shouldn't say these foolish things and I feel kind of -uncomfortable to talk about the foolish things that happened or what he -said foolish things. - -This is one of the reasons why I don't know really the reasons for -these quarrels because sometimes the quarrels were just trifles. It is -just that Lee was very unrestrained and very explosive at that time. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, we will ask you to be very frank with us. It -isn't for the purpose of embarrassing you or your husband that we ask -you these things but it might help us to understand and even if you -will tell us the foolish and stupid things it may shed some light on -the problem. You understand that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I understand you are not asking these questions out of -curiosity but for a reason. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband indicate any particular Russian friends -that he disliked more than others? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He liked De Mohrenschildt but he--because he was a strong -person, but only De Mohrenschildt. He did not like Bouhe or Anna Meller. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever tell him you liked these people? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I told him all the time that I liked these people and -that is why he was angry at me and would tell me that I was just like -they were. At one time I left him and went to my friends because he put -me into--put me on the spot by saying, "Well, if you like your friends -so much then go ahead and live with them," and he left me no choice. - -Mr. RANKIN. When was this, Mrs. Oswald? - -Mrs. OSWALD. On Elsbeth Street. - -Mr. RANKIN. How long were you gone from him then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. One week. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he ask you to return? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I took June and I went to Anna Meller, took a cab and -went there. I spent several days with her. Lee didn't know where I was -but he called up and about 2 or 3 days after I came to and we met at De -Mohrenschildt's house and he asked me to return home. I, of course, did -not want a divorce but I told him it would be better to get a divorce -rather than to continue living and quarreling this way. After all this -is only a burden on a man if two people live together and fight. I -simply wanted to show him, too, that I am not a toy. That a woman is a -little more complicated. That you cannot trifle with her. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything at that time about how he should treat -you if you returned? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I told him if he did not change his character, then -it would become impossible to continue living with him. Because if -there should be such quarrels continuously that would be crippling for -the children. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did he say to that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Then he said that it would be--it was very hard for him. -That he could not change. That I must accept him, such as he was. And -he asked me to come back home with him right on that day but he left -feeling bad because I did not go and remained with my friend. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you say about accepting him as he was? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I told him I was not going to. Of course, such as he was -for me he was good, but I wanted simply for the sake of the family that -he would correct his character. It isn't that I didn't mean to say he -was good for me, I meant to say that I could stand him, but for the -sake of the children I wanted him to improve his behavior. - -Mr. RANKIN. Then did he get in touch with you again? - -Mrs. OSWALD. At that time there was very little room at Anna Meller's -and it was very uncomfortable and I left and went to Katya Ford whose -husband at that time happened to be out of town on business. I spent -several days with Katya Ford but then when her husband returned I did -not want to remain with her. And it was on a Sunday morning then when -I moved over to Anna Ray. Lee called me and said he wanted to see -me, that he had come by bus and he wanted to see me and he came that -evening and he cried and said that he wanted me to return home because -if I did not return he did not want to continue living. He said he -didn't know how to love me in any other way and that he will try to -change. - -Mr. RANKIN. While you were at Mrs. Ford's did she go to the hospital? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. I think that you are confused--this was Elena Hall -in Fort Worth, she was ill and went to the hospital. It is not very -interesting to hear all that. Somewhat boring. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the manner in which Lee brought up the idea -of your going to Russia alone? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Quite simply he said it was very hard for him here. That -he could not have a steady job. It would be better for me because I -could work in Russia. That was all. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you understand when he suggested it that he proposed -that you go and he stay? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Now, I think I know why he had in mind to start his -foolish activity which could harm me but, of course, at that time he -didn't tell me the reason. It is only now that I understand it. At that -time when I would ask him he would get angry because he couldn't tell -me. - -Mr. RANKIN. What would you say to him at that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I told him at that time that I am agreeable to going if he -could not live with me. But he kept on repeating that he wanted to live -with me but that it would be better for me, but when I wanted to know -the reason he would not tell me. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is there something that you have learned since that caused -you to believe that this suggestion was related to trying to provide -for you or to be sure that you wouldn't be hurt by what he was going to -do? - -Mrs. OSWALD. At that time I didn't know this. I only saw that he was -in such a state that he was struggling and perhaps did not understand -himself. I thought that I was the reason for that. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he have a job then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you feel that you were getting along on what he was -earning? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Of course. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were you urging him to earn more so that he could provide -more for the family? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. We had enough. - -Mr. RANKIN. You were not complaining about the way you were living? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. I think that my friends had thought, and it was also -written in the newspapers that we lived poorly because for Americans -$200 appears to be very little. But I have never lived in any very -luxurious way and, therefore, for me this was quite sufficient. Some of -the others would say, "well here, you don't have a car or don't have -this or that." But for me it was sufficient. Sometimes Lee would tell -me I was just like my friends, that I wanted to have that which they -had. That I preferred them to him because they give me more, but that -is not true. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you understand when he suggested you return to Russia -that he was proposing to break up your marriage? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I told him that I would go to Russia if he would give me a -divorce, but he did not want to give me a divorce. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he say why? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He said that if he were to give me a divorce that that -would break everything between us, which he didn't want. That he wanted -to keep me as his wife, but I told him that if he wants to remain in -the United States I want to be free in Russia. - -Mr. RANKIN. During this period did he appear to be more excited and -nervous? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Not particularly, but the later time he was more excited -and more nervous but it was quite a contrast between the way he was in -Russia. - -Mr. RANKIN. By the later time that you just referred to what do you -mean? Can you give us some approximate date? - -Mrs. OSWALD. When we went to Neely Street. - -The CHAIRMAN. I think this is a good time to take our luncheon recess -now. So, we will adjourn until 2 o'clock. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you. - -(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -Afternoon Session - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED - - -The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m. - -The CHAIRMAN. All right. Let us proceed. - -(The Chairman administered the oath to Alvin I. Mills, Stenotype -Reporter.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, do you have the last questions? - -In the future, would you do that, so we can refresh the witness about -the last couple of questions on her testimony? I think it will make it -easier for her, if she doesn't have to try to remember all the time. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, as I recall you were telling us about these -developments at Neely Street when you found that your husband was -suggesting that you go back to Russia alone and you discussed that -matter, and you thought it had something to do with the idea he had, -which I understood you have discovered as you looked back or thought -back later but didn't know at the time fully. Is that right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. RANKIN. Could you tell us those things that you observed that -caused you to think he had something in mind at that time, and I will -ask you later, after you tell us, those that you discovered since or -that you have obtained more light on since. - -Mrs. OSWALD. At that time I did not think anything about it. I had no -reasons to think that he had something in mind. I did not understand -him at that time. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the first time that you observed the rifle? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That was on Neely Street. I think that was in February. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did you learn about it? Did you see it some place in -the apartment? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Lee had a small room where he spent a great deal of -time, where he read--where he kept his things, and that is where the -rifle was. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was it out in the room at that time, as distinguished from -in a closet in the room? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it was open, out in the open. At first I think--I saw -some package up on the top shelf, and I think that that was the rifle. -But I didn't know. And apparently later he assembled it and had it in -the room. - -Mr. RANKIN. When you saw the rifle assembled in the room, did it have -the scope on it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, it did not have a scope on it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any discussion with your husband about the -rifle when you first saw it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Of course I asked him, "What do you need a rifle for? What -do we need that for?" - -He said that it would come in handy some time for hunting. And this was -not too surprising because in Russia, too, we had a rifle. - -Mr. RANKIN. In Russia did you have a rifle or a shotgun? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know the difference. One and the other shoots. You -men. That is your business. - -The CHAIRMAN. My wife wouldn't know the difference, so it is all right. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I have never served in the Army. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss what the rifle cost with your husband? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was the rifle later placed in a closet in the apartment at -Neely Street? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, it was always either in a corner, standing up in a -corner or on a shelf. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what happened to the gun that you had in -Russia? Was it brought over to this country? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, he sold it there. I did not say so when I had the -first interviews. You must understand this was my husband. I didn't -want to say too much. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is this rifle at Neely Street the only rifle that you know -of that your husband had after you were married to him? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever show that rifle to the De Mohrenschildts? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I know that De Mohrenschildts had said that the rifle had -been shown to him, but I don't remember that. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall your husband taking the rifle away from the -apartment on Neely Street at any time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. You must know that the rifle--it isn't as if it was out in -the open. He would hang a coat or something to mask its presence in the -room. And sometimes when he walked out, when he went out in the evening -I didn't know, because I didn't go into that room very often. I don't -know whether he took it with him or not. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see him clean the rifle? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I said before I had never seen it before. But I think -you understand. I want to help you, and that is why there is no reason -for concealing anything. I will not be charged with anything. - -Mr. GOPADZE. She says she was not sworn in before. But now inasmuch as -she is sworn in, she is going to tell the truth. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you see him clean the rifle a number of times? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Could you help us by giving some estimate of the times as -you remember it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. About four times--about four or five times, I think. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband ever tell you why he was cleaning -the--that is, that he had been using it and needed to be cleaned after -use? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I did not ask him, because I thought it was quite -normal that when you have a rifle you must clean it from time to time. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever observe your husband taking the rifle away -from the apartment on Neely Street? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Now, I think that he probably did sometimes, but I -never did see it. You must understand that sometimes I would be in -the kitchen and he would be in his room downstairs, and he would say -bye-bye, I will be back soon, and he may have taken it. He probably -did. Perhaps he purely waited for an occasion when he could take it -away without my seeing it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever observe that the rifle had been taken out of -the apartment at Neely Street--that is, that it was gone? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Before the incident with General Walker, I know that Lee -was preparing for something. He took photographs of that house and he -told me not to enter his room. I didn't know about these photographs, -but when I came into the room once in general he tried to make it -so that I would spend less time in that room. I noticed that quite -accidentally one time when I was cleaning the room he tried to take -care of it himself. - -I asked him what kind of photographs are these, but he didn't say -anything to me. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is the photographs of the Walker house that you were -asking about? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Later, after he had fired, he told me about it. - -I didn't know that he intended to do it--that he was planning to do it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn at any time that he had been practicing with -the rifle? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think that he went once or twice. I didn't actually see -him take the rifle, but I knew that he was practicing. - -Mr. RANKIN. Could you give us a little help on how you knew? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He told me. And he would mention that in passing--it -isn't as if he said, "Well, today I am going"--it wasn't as if he -said, "Well, today I am going to take the rifle and go and practice." - -But he would say, "Well, today I will take the rifle along for -practice." - -Therefore, I don't know whether he took it from the house or whether -perhaps he even kept the rifle somewhere outside. There was a little -square, sort of a little courtyard where he might have kept it. - -When you asked me about the rifle, I said that Lee didn't have a rifle, -but he also had a gun, a revolver. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall when he first had the pistol, that you -remember? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He had that on Neely Street, but I think that he acquired -the rifle before he acquired the pistol. The pistol I saw twice--once -in his room, and the second time when I took these photographs. - -Mr. RANKIN. What period of time was there between when he got the rifle -and you learned of it, and the time that you first learned about the -pistol? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I can't say. - -Mr. RANKIN. When you testified about his practicing with the rifle, are -you describing a period when you were still at Neely Street? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know where he practiced with the rifle? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know where. I don't know the name of the place -where this took place. But I think it was somewhere out of town. It -seems to me a place called Lopfield. - -Mr. RANKIN. Would that be at the airport--Love Field? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Love Field. - -Mr. RANKIN. So you think he was practicing out in the open and not at a -rifle range? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall seeing the rifle when the telescopic lens was -on it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I hadn't paid any attention initially. - -I know a rifle was a rifle. I didn't know whether or not it had a -telescope attached to it. But the first time I remember seeing it was -in New Orleans, where I recognized the telescope. But probably the -telescope was on before. I simply hadn't paid attention. - -I hope you understand. When I saw it, I thought that all rifles have -that. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you make any objection to having the rifle around? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Of course. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did he say to that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That for a man to have a rifle--since I am a woman, I -don't understand him, and I shouldn't bother him. A fine life. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is that the same rifle that you are referring to that you -took the picture of with your husband and when he had the pistol, too? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I asked him then why he had dressed himself up like -that, with the rifle and the pistol, and I thought that he had gone -crazy, and he said he wanted to send that to a newspaper. This was not -my business--it was man's business. - -If I had known these were such dangerous toys, of course--you -understand that I thought that Lee had changed in that direction, and I -didn't think it was a serious occupation with him, just playing around. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the day that you took the picture of him with -the rifle and the pistol? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think that that was towards the end of February, -possibly the beginning of March. I can't say exactly. Because I didn't -attach any significance to it at the time. That was the only time I -took any pictures. - -I don't know how to take pictures. He gave me a camera and asked me--if -someone should ask me how to photograph, I don't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was it on a day off that you took the picture? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It was on a Sunday. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did it occur? Did he come to you and ask you to take -the picture? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I was hanging up diapers, and he came up to me with the -rifle and I was even a little scared, and he gave me the camera and -asked me to press a certain button. - -Mr. RANKIN. And he was dressed up with a pistol at the same time, was -he? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. You have examined that picture since, and noticed that the -telescopic lens was on at the time the picture was taken, have you not? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Now I paid attention to it. A specialist would see it -immediately, of course. But at that time I did not pay any attention -at all. I saw just Lee. These details are of great significance for -everybody, but for me at that time it didn't mean anything. At the -time that I was questioned, I had even forgotten that I had taken two -photographs. I thought there was only one. I thought that there were -two identical pictures, but they turned out to be two different poses. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have anything to do with the prints of the -photograph after the prints were made? That is, did you put them in a -photographic album yourself? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Lee gave me one photograph and asked me to keep it for -June somewhere. Of course June doesn't need photographs like that. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall how long after that the Walker matter -occurred? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Two, perhaps three weeks later. I don't know. You know -better when this happened. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did you first learn that your husband had shot at -General Walker? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That evening he went out, I thought that he had gone to -his classes or perhaps that he just walked out or went out on his own -business. It got to be about 10 or 10:30, he wasn't home yet, and I -began to be worried. Perhaps even later. - -Then I went into his room. Somehow, I was drawn into it--you know--I -was pacing around. Then I saw a note there. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you look for the gun at that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I didn't understand anything. On the note it said, -"If I am arrested" and there are certain other questions, such as, -for example, the key to the mailbox is in such and such a place, and -that he left me some money to last me for some time, and I couldn't -understand at all what can he be arrested for. When he came back I -asked him what had happened. He was very pale. I don't remember the -exact time, but it was very late. - -And he told me not to ask him any questions. He only told me that he -had shot at General Walker. - -Of course I didn't sleep all night. I thought that any minute now, the -police will come. Of course I wanted to ask him a great deal. But in -his state I decided I had best leave him alone--it would be purposeless -to question him. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he say any more than that about the shooting? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Of course in the morning I told him that I was worried, -and that we can have a lot of trouble, and I asked him, "Where is the -rifle? What did you do with it?" - -He said, that he had left it somewhere, that he had buried it, it seems -to me, somewhere far from that place, because he said dogs could find -it by smell. - -I don't know--I am not a criminologist. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you why he had shot at General Walker? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I told him that he had no right to kill people in -peacetime, he had no right to take their life because not everybody has -the same ideas as he has. People cannot be all alike. - -He said that this was a very bad man, that he was a fascist, that he -was the leader of a fascist organization, and when I said that even -though all of that might be true, just the same he had no right to -take his life, he said if someone had killed Hitler in time it would -have saved many lives. I told him that this is no method to prove your -ideas, by means of a rifle. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask him how long he had been planning to do this? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He said he had been planning for two months. -Yes--perhaps he had planned to do so even earlier, but according to his -conduct I could tell he was planning--he had been planning this for two -months or perhaps a little even earlier. - -The CHAIRMAN. Would you like to take a little recess? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, thank you. Better to get it over with. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he show you a picture of the Walker house then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. That was after the shooting? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He had a book--he had a notebook in which he noted -down quite a few details. It was all in English, I didn't read it. But -I noticed the photograph. Sometimes he would lock himself in his room -and write in the book. I thought that he was writing some other kind of -memoirs, as he had written about his life in the Soviet Union. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever read that book? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know of anything else he had in it besides this -Walker house picture? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. Photographs and notes, and I think there was a map in -there. - -Mr. RANKIN. There was a map of the area where the Walker house was? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It was a map of Dallas, but I don't know where Walker -lived. Sometimes evenings he would be busy with this. Perhaps he was -calculating something, but I don't know. He had a bus schedule and -computed something. - -After this had happened, people thought that he had a car, but he had -been using a bus. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he explain to you about his being able to use a bus -just as well as other people could use a car--something of that kind? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. Simply as a passenger. He told me that even before -that time he had gone also to shoot, but he had returned. I don't know -why. Because on the day that he did fire, there was a church across the -street and there were many people there, and it was easier to merge in -the crowd and not be noticed. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask him about this note that he had left, what he -meant by it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--he said he had in mind that if in case he were -arrested, I would know what to do. - -Mr. RANKIN. The note doesn't say anything about Walker, does it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask him if that is what he meant by the note? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, because as soon as he came home I showed him the note -and asked him "What is the meaning of this?" - -Mr. RANKIN. And that is when he gave you the explanation about the -Walker shooting? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -I know that on a Sunday he took the rifle, but I don't think he fired -on a Sunday. Perhaps this was on Friday. So Sunday he left and took the -rifle. - -Mr. RANKIN. If the Walker shooting was on Wednesday, does that refresh -your memory as to the day of the week at all? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Refresh my memory as to what? - -Mr. RANKIN. As to the day of the shooting? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It was in the middle of the week. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he give any further explanation of what had happened -that evening? - -Mrs. OSWALD. When he fired, he did not know whether he had hit Walker -or not. He didn't take the bus from there. He ran several kilometers -and then took the bus. And he turned on the radio and listened, but -there were no reports. - -The next day he bought a paper and there he read it was only chance -that saved Walker's life. If he had not moved, he might have been -killed. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he comment on that at all? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He said only that he had taken very good aim, that it was -just chance that caused him to miss. He was very sorry that he had not -hit him. - -I asked him to give me his word that he would not repeat anything like -that. I said that this chance shows that he must live and that he -should not be shot at again. I told him that I would save the note and -that if something like that should be repeated again, I would go to -the police and I would have the proof in the form of that note. - -He said he would not repeat anything like that again. - -By the way, several days after that, the De Mohrenschildts came to us, -and as soon as he opened the door he said, "Lee, how is it possible -that you missed?" - -I looked at Lee. I thought that he had told De Mohrenschildt about it. -And Lee looked at me, and he apparently thought that I had told De -Mohrenschildt about it. It was kind of dark. But I noticed--it was in -the evening, but I noticed that his face changed, that he almost became -speechless. - -You see, other people knew my husband better than I did. Not -always--but in this case. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was De Mohrenschildt a friend that he told--your husband -told him personal things that you knew of? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He asked Lee not because Lee had told him about it, but I -think because he is smart enough man to have been able to guess it. I -don't know--he is simply a liberal, simply a man. I don't think that he -is being accused justly of being a Communist. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is De Mohrenschildt that you refer to? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell the authorities anything about this Walker -incident when you learned about it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. You have told the Secret Service or the FBI people reasons -why you didn't. Will you tell us? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Why I did not tell about it? - -First, because it was my husband. As far as I know, according to the -local laws here, a wife cannot be a witness against her husband. But, -of course, if I had known that Lee intended to repeat something like -that, I would have told. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he ask you to return the note to him? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He forgot about it. But apparently after that he thought -that what he had written in his book might be proof against him, and he -destroyed it. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is this book that you have just referred to in which -he had the Walker house picture? - -Mrs. OSWALD. There was a notebook, yes, that is the one. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you do with the note that he had left for you -after you talked about it and said you were going to keep it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I had it among my things in a cookbook. But I have two--I -don't remember in which. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your relations with your husband change after this -Walker incident? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe to us the changes as you observed them? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Soon after that, Lee lost his job--I don't know for what -reason. He was upset by it. And he looked for work for several days. -And then I insisted that it would be better for him to go to New -Orleans where he had relatives. I insisted on that because I wanted -to get him further removed from Dallas and from Walker, because even -though he gave me his word, I wanted to have him further away, because -a rifle for him was not a very good toy--a toy that was too enticing. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you say that you wanted him to go to New Orleans -because of the Walker incident? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. I simply told him that I wanted to see his home town. -He had been born there. - -Mr. RANKIN. When he promised you that he would not do anything like -that again, did you then believe him? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I did not quite believe him inasmuch as the rifle remained -in the house. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask him to get rid of the rifle at that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. After he shot at Walker, did you notice his taking the -rifle out any more to practice? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall when you went to New Orleans? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was in May. Lee went there himself, by himself. -At that time, I became acquainted with Mrs. Paine, and I stayed with -her while he was looking for work. In about one week Lee telephoned me -that he had found a job and that I should come down. - -Mr. RANKIN. When did you first get acquainted with Mrs. Paine? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was a couple of months earlier--probably in -January. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did you happen to go to Mrs. Paine's house to stay? Did -she invite you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; she invited me. I had become acquainted with her -through some Russian friends of ours. We had visited with some people, -and she was there. Inasmuch as she was studying Russian, she invited me -to stay with her. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you pay her anything for staying with her? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I only repaid her in the sense that I helped her in -the household and that I gave her Russian language lessons. This, in -her words, was the very best pay that I could give her. And she wanted -that I remain with her longer. - -But, of course, it was better for me to be with my husband. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did your husband let you know that he had found a job? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He telephoned me. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you then leave at once for New Orleans? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And how did you get to New Orleans from Dallas? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Mrs. Paine took me there in her car. She took her children -and my things and we went there. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have much in the way of household goods to move? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Everything--we could put everything into one car. But, in -fact, most of the things Lee had taken with him. Because he went by bus. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he take the gun with him to New Orleans? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember exactly, but it seems to me that it was -not among my things. - -Mr. RANKIN. Where did you live at New Orleans? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Magazine Street. By the time I arrived there Lee already -had rented an apartment. - -Mr. RANKIN. When Mrs. Paine brought you down to New Orleans, did she -stay with you for any period of time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, she was there for two days. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did Mrs. Paine and your husband get along? Were they -friendly? - -Mrs. OSWALD. She was very good to us, to Lee and to me, and Lee was -quite friendly with her, but he did not like her. I know that he didn't -like her. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you why he didn't like her? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He considered her to be a stupid woman. Excuse me--these -are not my words. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were you and Mrs. Paine good friends? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, so-so. I tried to help her as much as I could. But I -also--I was--I did not like her too well. I also considered her not to -be a very smart woman. - -Mr. RANKIN. I think it is about time for a recess, Mr. Chairman. - -The CHAIRMAN. Very well. We will take a recess for 10 minutes. - -(Brief recess.) - -The CHAIRMAN. The Committee will be in order. - -Mr. Rankin, you may continue. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, did you discuss the Walker shooting with Mrs. -Paine? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. I didn't tell anyone. Apart from the FBI. That is -after--that is later. - -Mr. RANKIN. When was it that you told the FBI about the Walker shooting? - -Mrs. OSWALD. About 2 weeks after Lee was killed. - -Mr. RANKIN. Before you went to New Orleans, had you seen anyone from -the FBI? - -Mrs. OSWALD. The FBI visited us in Fort Worth when we lived on Mercedes -Street. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was that in August 1962? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Probably. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know the names of the FBI agents that visited you -then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't remember that Lee had just returned from work -and we were getting ready to have dinner when a car drove up and man -introduced himself and asked Lee to step out and talk to him. - -There was another man in the car. They talked for about 2 hours and I -was very angry, because everything had gotten cold. This meant more -work for me. I asked who these were, and he was very upset over the -fact that the FBI was interested in him. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did that interview take place in the car? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband tell you what they said to him and what he -said to them? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know to what extent this was true, but Lee said -that the FBI had told him that in the event some Russians might visit -him and would try to recruit him to work for them, he should notify the -FBI agents. I don't know to what extent this was true. But perhaps Lee -just said that. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did our husband say anything about the FBI asking him to -work for them? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, he didn't tell me. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything more about what they said to him in -this interview? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, he didn't tell me verbatim, but he said that they saw -Communists in everybody and they are very much afraid and inasmuch as I -had returned from Russia. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you that they had asked him whether he had -acted as an agent or was asked to be an agent for the Russians? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any other---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. They did ask him about whether the Russians had -proposed that he be an agent for them. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you what he said to them in that regard? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He told me that he had answered no. - -Mr. RANKIN. After this interview by the FBI agents, do you recall any -later interview with them and yourself or your husband before you went -to New Orleans? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, there were no other interviews. - -The next time was in Irving, when I lived with Mrs. Paine. But that is -after I returned from New Orleans. - -Mr. RANKIN. At New Orleans, who did your husband work for? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He worked for the Louisiana Coffee Co. But I don't know in -what capacity. I don't think that this was very good job, or perhaps -more correctly, he did not--I know that he didn't like this job. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what he received in pay from that job? - -Mrs. OSWALD. $1.35 an hour, I think. I am not sure. - -Mr. RANKIN. How long did he work for this coffee company? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was from May until August, to the end of August. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was he discharged? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And then was he unemployed for a time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. After you had discussed with your husband your going to -Russia, was anything done about that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I wrote a letter to the Soviet Embassy with a request -to be permitted to return. And then it seems to me after I was already -in New Orleans, I wrote another letter in which I told the Embassy that -my husband wants to return with me. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the date of the first letter that you just -referred to? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. But that is easily determined. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were you asking for a visa to return to Russia? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss with your husband his returning with you -before you wrote the second letter that you have described? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't ask him. He asked me to do so one day when he -was extremely upset. He appeared to be very unhappy and he said that -nothing keeps him here, and that he would not lose anything if he -returned to the Soviet Union, and that he wants to be with me. And that -it would be better to have less but not to be concerned about tomorrow, -not to be worried about tomorrow. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was this a change in his attitude? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Towards me or towards Russia? - -Mr. RANKIN. Towards going to Russia. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't think that he was too fond of Russia, but simply -that he knew that he would have work assured him there, because he -had--after all, he had to think about his family. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you know that he did get a passport? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me he always had a passport. - -Mr. RANKIN. While he was in New Orleans, that he got a passport? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, it seems to me that after we came here, he -immediately received a passport. I don't know. I always saw his green -passport. He even had two--one that had expired, and a new one. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know when the new one was issued? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. It seems to me in the Embassy when we arrived. I don't -know. - -But please understand me correctly, I am not hiding this. I simply -don't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know about a letter from your husband to the Embassy -asking that his request for a visa be considered separately from yours? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't. - -Mr. RANKIN. When you were at New Orleans, did your husband go to -school, that you knew of? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he spend his earnings with you and your child? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Most of the time, yes. But I know that he became active -with some kind of activity in a pro-Cuban committee. I hope that is -what you are looking for. - -Mr. RANKIN. When did you first notice the rifle at New Orleans? - -Mrs. OSWALD. As soon as I arrived in New Orleans. - -Mr. RANKIN. Where was it kept there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He again had a closet-like room with his things in it. He -had his clothes hanging there, all his other belongings. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was the rifle in a cover there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you notice him take it away from your home there in New -Orleans at any time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. I know for sure that he didn't. But I know that we had -a kind of a porch with a--screened-in porch, and I know that sometimes -evenings after dark he would sit there with his rifle. I don't know -what he did with it. I came there by chance once and saw him just -sitting there with his rifle. I thought he is merely sitting there and -resting. Of course I didn't like these kind of little jokes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you give us an idea of how often this happened that you -recall? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It began to happen quite frequently after he was arrested -there in connection with some demonstration and handing out of leaflets. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was that the Fair Play for Cuba demonstration? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. From what you observed about his having the rifle on the -back porch, in the dark, could you tell whether or not he was trying to -practice with the telescopic lens? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I asked him why. But this time he was preparing to go -to Cuba. - -Mr. RANKIN. That was his explanation for practicing with the rifle? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He said that he would go to Cuba. I told him I was -not going with him--that I would stay here. - -Mr. RANKIN. On these occasions when he was practicing with the rifle, -would they be three or four times a week in the evening, after the Fair -Play for Cuba incident? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Almost every evening. He very much wanted to go to Cuba -and have the newspapers write that somebody had kidnapped an aircraft. -And I asked him "For God sakes, don't do such a thing." - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he describe that idea to you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And when he told you of it, did he indicate that he wanted -to be the one that would kidnap the airplane himself? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he wanted to do that. And he asked me that I should -help him with that. But I told him I would not touch that rifle. - -This sounds very merry, but I am very much ashamed of it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell him that using the rifle in this way, talking -about it, was not in accordance with his agreement with you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He said that everything would go well. He was very -self-reliant--if I didn't want to. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was there any talk of divorce during this period? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. During this time, we got along pretty well not -counting the incidents with Cuba. I say relatively well, because we did -not really have--generally he helped me quite a bit and was good to me. -But, of course, I did not agree with his views. - -Mr. RANKIN. At this time in New Orleans did he discuss with you his -views? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Mostly--most of the conversations were on the subject of -Cuba. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was there anything said about the United States--not liking -the United States. - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. I can't say--he liked some things in Russia, he liked -some other things here, didn't like some things there, and didn't like -some things here. - -And I am convinced that as much as he knew about Cuba, all he knew was -from books and so on. He wanted to convince himself. But I am sure that -if he had gone there, he would not have liked it there, either. Only on -the moon, perhaps. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you what he didn't like about the United States? - -Mrs. OSWALD. First of all, he didn't like the fact that there are -fascist organizations here. That was one thing. - -The second thing, that it was hard to get an education and hard to find -work. And that medical expenses were very high. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he say who he blamed for this? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't blame anyone. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever say anything about President Kennedy? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. At least--I was always interested in President Kennedy -and had asked him many times to translate articles in a newspaper or -magazine for me, and he always had something good to say. He translated -it, but never did comment on it. At least in Lee's behavior--from -Lee's behavior I cannot conclude that he was against the President, -and therefore the thing is incomprehensible to me. Perhaps he hid it -from me. I don't know. He said that after 20 years he would be prime -minister. I think that he had a sick imagination--at least at that time -I already considered him to be not quite normal--not always, but at -times. I always tried to point out to him that he was a man like any -others who were around us. But he simply could not understand that. - -I tried to tell him that it would be better to direct his energies to -some more practical matters, and not something like that. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what you observed about him that caused you -to think he was different? - -Mrs. OSWALD. At least his imagination, his fantasy, which was quite -unfounded, as to the fact that he was an outstanding man. And then -the fact that he was very much interested, exceedingly so, in -autobiographical works of outstanding statesmen of the United States -and others. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was there anything else of that kind that caused you to -think that he was different? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think that he compared himself to these people whose -autobiographies he read. That seems strange to me, because it is -necessary to have an education in order to achieve success of that -kind. After he became busy with his pro-Cuban activity, he received a -letter from somebody in New York, some Communist--probably from New -York--I am not sure from where--from some Communist leader and he was -very happy, he felt that this was a great man that he had received the -letter from. - -You see, when I would make fun of him, of his activity to some extent, -in the sense that it didn't help anyone really, he said that I didn't -understand him, and here, you see, was proof that someone else did, -that there were people who understood his activity. - -I would say that to Lee--that Lee could not really do much for Cuba, -that Cuba would get along well without him, if they had to. - -Mr. RANKIN. You would tell that to him? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And what would he say in return? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He shrugged his shoulders and kept his own opinion. He was -even interested in the airplane schedules, with the idea of kidnapping -a plane. But I talked him out of it. - -Mr. RANKIN. The airplane schedules from New Orleans? - -Mrs. OSWALD. New Orleans--but--from New Orleans--leaving New Orleans in -an opposite direction. And he was going to make it turn around and go -to Cuba. - -Mr. RANKIN. He discussed this with you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. When did his Fair Play for Cuba activity occur--before or -after he lost his job? - -Mrs. OSWALD. After he lost his job. I told him it would be much better -if he were working, because when he didn't work he was busy with such -foolishness. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing. And it is at that time that I wrote a letter to -Mrs. Paine telling her that Lee was out of work, and they invited me to -come and stay with her. And when I left her, I knew that Lee would go -to Mexico City. But, of course, I didn't tell Mrs. Paine about it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Had he discussed with you the idea of going to Mexico City? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. When did he first discuss that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was in August. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you why he wanted to go to Mexico City? - -Mrs. OSWALD. From Mexico City he wanted to go to Cuba--perhaps through -the Russian Embassy in Mexico somehow he would be able to get to Cuba. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about going to Russia by way of Cuba? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I know that he said that in the embassy. But he only said -so. I know that he had no intention of going to Russia then. - -Mr. RANKIN. How do you know that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He told me. I know Lee fairly well--well enough from that -point of view. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you that he was going to Cuba and send you on -to Russia? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, he proposed that after he got to Cuba, that I would go -there, too, somehow. - -But he also said that after he was in Cuba, and if he might go to -Russia, he would let me know in any case. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he discuss Castro and the Cuban Government with you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. When did he start to do that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. At the time that he was busy with that pro-Cuban activity. -He was sympathetic to Castro while in Russia, and I have also a good -opinion of Castro to the extent that I know. I don't know anything bad -about him. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about Castro to you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he is a very smart statesman, very useful for -his government, and very active. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to him? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I said, "Maybe." It doesn't make any difference to me. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you know he was writing to the Fair Play for Cuba -organization in New York during this latter period in New Orleans? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he show you that correspondence? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did you learn that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He told me about it. Or, more correctly, I saw that he was -writing to them. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you write the Russian Embassy in regard to your visa -from New Orleans. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what address you gave in New Orleans when you -wrote? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't remember. Sometimes I would write a letter, -but Lee would insert the address and would mail the letters. That is -why I don't remember. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you get your mail in New Orleans at your apartment or -at a post office box? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, we had a post office box, and that is where we -received our mail. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband have any organization in his Fair Play for -Cuba at New Orleans? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, he had no organization. He was alone. He was quite -alone. - -Mr. RANKIN. When did you learn about his arrest there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. The next day, when he was away from home overnight and -returned, he told me he had been arrested. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He was smiling, but in my opinion he was upset. I think -that after that occurrence--he became less active, he cooled off a -little. - -Mr. RANKIN. Less active in the Fair Play for Cuba? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He continued it, but more for a person's sake. I -think that his heart was no longer in it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you that the FBI had seen him at the jail in -New Orleans? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he complain about his arrest and say it was unfair, -anything of that kind. - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you know he paid a fine? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have anything to do with trying to get him out of -jail? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -He was only there for 24 hours. He paid his fine and left. He said that -the policeman who talked to him was very kind, and was a very good -person. - -Mr. RANKIN. While you were in New Orleans, did you get to know the -Murrets? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. They are his relatives. I think that Lee engaged in -this activity primarily for purposes of self-advertising. He wanted to -be arrested. I think he wanted to get into the newspapers, so that he -would be known. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you think he wanted to be advertised and known as being -in support of Cuba before he went to Cuba? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you think he thought that would help him when he got to -Cuba? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you anything about that, or is that just what -you guess? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He would collect the newspaper clippings about his--when -the newspapers wrote about him, and he took these clippings with him -when he went to Mexico. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did the Murrets come to visit you from time to time in New -Orleans? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--sometimes they came to us, and sometimes we went to -them. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was that a friendly relationship? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I would say that they were more of a family relationship -type. They were very good to us. His uncle, that is the husband of -his aunt, was a very good man. He tried to reason with Lee after that -incident. Lee liked them very much as relatives but he didn't like the -fact that they were all very religious. - -When his uncle, or, again, the husband of his aunt would tell him that -he must approach things with a more serious attitude, and to worry -about himself and his family, Lee would say, "Well, these are just -bourgeois, who are only concerned with their own individual welfare." - -Mr. KRIMER. The word Mrs. Oswald used is not quite bourgeois, but it is -a person of a very narrow viewpoint who is only concerned with his own -personal interests, inclined to be an egotist. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you hear the discussion when the uncle talked about -this Fair Play for Cuba and his activities? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did the uncle say to your husband about that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. At that time. I did not know English too well, and Lee -would not interpret for me. He only nodded his head. But I knew that -he did not agree with his uncle. His uncle said that he condemned that -kind of activity. - -Mr. RANKIN. What was your husband's attitude about your learning -English? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He never talked English to me at home, and did not give me -any instruction. This was strictly my own business. But he did want me -to learn English. But that was my own concern. I had to do that myself -somehow. That is the truth. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did any of your Russian friends visit you at New Orleans? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Outside of the Murrets, were there some people from New -Orleans that visited you at your home in New Orleans? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Once or twice a woman visited who was a friend of Ruth -Paine's. Ruth Paine has written her. She had written to Ruth Paine to -find out whether she knew any Russians there. And once or twice this -woman visited us. But other than that, no one. - -Mr. RANKIN. What was the name of this woman? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. I only remember that her first name is -also Ruth. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband have friends of his that visited you there -at New Orleans? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, never. - -Once some time after Lee was arrested, on a Saturday or a Sunday -morning, a man came early and questioned Lee about the activity of the -allegedly existing organization, which really did not exist. Because -in the newspaper accounts Lee was described as a member and even the -leader of that organization, which in reality did not exist at all. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who that was? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't. I asked Lee who that was, and he said that -is probably some anti-Cuban, or perhaps an FBI agent. He represented -himself as a man who was sympathetic to Cuba but Lee did not believe -him. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband ever tell you what he told the FBI agent -when they came to the jail to see him? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. After you wrote Mrs. Paine, did she come at once in -response to your letter to take you back to Dallas? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Not quite at once. She came about a month later. She -apparently was on vacation at that time, and said that she would come -after her vacation. - -Mr. RANKIN. Didn't she indicate that she was going to come around -September 30, and then came a little before that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. In her letter to me she indicated that she would come -either the 20th or the 21st of September, and she did come at that time. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you move your household goods in her station wagon at -that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not the rifle was carried in the -station wagon? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it was. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have anything to do with loading it in there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. Lee was loading everything on because I was pregnant -at the time. But I know that Lee loaded the rifle on. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was the rifle carried in some kind of a case when you went -back with Mrs. Paine? - -Mrs. OSWALD. After we arrived. I tried to put the bed, the child's crib -together, the metallic parts, and I looked for a certain part, and I -came upon something wrapped in a blanket. I thought that was part of -the bed, but it turned out to be the rifle. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember whether the pistol was carried back in Mrs. -Paine's car too? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know where the pistol was. - -Mr. RANKIN. Before you went back to Mrs. Paine's house, did you discuss -whether you would be paying her anything for board and room? - -Mrs. OSWALD. She proposed that I again live with her on the same -conditions as before. Because this was more advantageous for her than -to pay a school. She received better instruction that way. - -In any case, she didn't spend any extra money for me--she didn't spend -any more than she usually spent. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you give her lessons in Russian? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, these were not quite lessons. It was more in the -nature of conversational practice. And then I also helped her to -prepare Russian lessons for the purpose of teaching Russian. - -Mr. RANKIN. When you found the rifle wrapped in the blanket, upon your -return to Mrs. Paine's, where was it located? - -Mrs. OSWALD. In the garage, where all the rest of the things were. - -Mr. RANKIN. In what part of the garage? - -Mrs. OSWALD. In that part which is closer to the street, because that -garage is connected to the house. One door opens on the kitchen, and -the other out in the street. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was the rifle lying down or was it standing up on the butt -end? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, it was lying down on the floor. - -Mr. RANKIN. When your husband talked about going to Mexico City, did he -say where he was going to go there, who he would visit? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He said that he would go to the Soviet Embassy and to -the Cuban Embassy and would do everything he could in order to get to -Cuba. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you where he would stay in Mexico City? - -Mrs. OSWALD. In a hotel. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you the name? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, he didn't know where he would stop. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was there any discussion about the expense of making the -trip? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. But we always lived very modestly, and Lee always had -some savings. Therefore, he had the money for it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he say how much it would cost? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He had a little over $100 and he said that that would be -sufficient. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he talk about getting you a silver bracelet or any -presents before he went? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It is perhaps more truth to say that he asked me what I -would like, and I told him that I would like Mexican silver bracelets. -But what he did buy me I didn't like at all. When he returned to -Irving, from Mexico City, and I saw the bracelet, I was fairly sure -that he had bought it in New Orleans and not in Mexico City, because I -had seen bracelets like that for sale there. That is why I am not sure -that the bracelet was purchased in Mexico. - -Lee had an identical bracelet which he had bought in either Dallas or -New Orleans. It was a man's bracelet. - -Mr. RANKIN. The silver bracelet he gave you when he got back had your -name on it, did it not? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was it too small? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I was offended because it was too small, and he -promised to exchange it. But, of course, I didn't want to hurt him, and -I said, thank you, the important thing is the thought, the attention. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he discuss other things that he planned to do in Mexico -City, such as see the bullfights or jai alai games or anything of that -kind? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I was already questioned about this game by the FBI, -but I never heard of it. But I had asked Lee to buy some Mexican -records, but he did not do that. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know how he got to Mexico City? - -Mrs. OSWALD. By bus. - -Mr. RANKIN. And did he return by bus, also? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It seems, yes. Yes, he told me that a round-trip ticket -was cheaper than two one-way tickets. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn that he had a tourist card to go to Mexico? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. If he had such a card, you didn't know it then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. After he had been to Mexico City, did he come back to -Irving or to Dallas? - -Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee returned I was already in Irving and he -telephoned me. But he told me that he had arrived the night before and -had spent the night in Dallas, and called me in the morning. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he say where he had been in Dallas? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me at the YMcA. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he come right out to see you then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you anything about his trip to Mexico City? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he told me that he had visited the two embassies, -that he had received nothing, that the people who are there are too -much--too bureaucratic. He said that he has spent the time pretty well. -And I had told him that if he doesn't accomplish anything to at least -take a good rest. I was hoping that the climate, if nothing else, would -be beneficial to him. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask him what he did the rest of the time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I think he said that he visited a bull fight, that he -spent most of his time in museums, and that he did some sightseeing in -the city. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you about anyone that he met there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -He said that he did not like the Mexican girls. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you anything about what happened at the Cuban -Embassy, or consulate? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. Only that he had talked to certain people there. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you what people he talked to? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he first visited the Soviet Embassy in the -hope that having been there first this would make it easier for him at -the Cuban Embassy. But there they refused to have anything to do with -him. - -Mr. RANKIN. And what did he say about the visit to the Cuban Embassy or -consulate? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It was quite without results. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he complain about the consular or any of the officials -of the Cuban Embassy and the way they handled the matter? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he called them bureaucrats. He said that the Cubans -seemed to have a system similar to the Russians--too much red tape -before you get through there. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is there anything else that he told you about the Mexico -City trip that you haven't related? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, that is all that I can remember about it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall how long he was gone on his trip to Mexico -City? - -Mrs. OSWALD. All of this took approximately 2 weeks, from the time that -I left New Orleans, until the time that he returned. - -Mr. RANKIN. And from the time he left the United States to go to Mexico -City to his return, was that about 7 days? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He said he was there for about a week. - -Mr. RANKIN. When you were asked before about the trip to Mexico, you -did not say that you knew anything about it. Do you want to explain to -the Commission how that happened? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Most of these questions were put to me by the FBI. I do -not like them too much. I didn't want to be too sincere with them. -Though I was quite sincere and answered most of their questions. They -questioned me a great deal, and I was very tired of them, and I thought -that, well, whether I knew about it or didn't know about it didn't -change matters at all, it didn't help anything, because the fact that -Lee had been there was already known, and whether or not I knew about -it didn't make any difference. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was that the only reason that you did not tell about what -you knew of the Mexico City trip before? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, because the first time that they asked me I said no, -I didn't know anything about it. And in all succeeding discussions I -couldn't very well have said I did. There is nothing special in that. -It wasn't because this was connected with some sort of secret. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband stay with you at the Paines after that -first night when he returned from Mexico? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he stayed overnight there. - -And in the morning we took him to Dallas. - -Mr. RANKIN. And by "we" who do you mean? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Ruth Paine, I and her children. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what he did in Dallas, then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He intended to rent an apartment in the area of Oak Cliff, -and to look for work. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he did that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I know that he always tried to get some work. He was -not lazy. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he rent the apartment? - -Mrs. OSWALD. On the same day he rented a room, not an apartment, and he -telephoned me and told me about it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss the plans for this room before you took him -to Dallas? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. I asked him where he would live, and he said it -would be best if he rented a room, it would not be as expensive as an -apartment. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about whether you would be living with -him, or he would be living there alone? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I did not really want to be with Lee at that time, -because I was expecting, and it would have been better to be with a -woman who spoke English and Russian. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know where your husband looked for work in Dallas at -that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. He tried to get any kind of work. He answered ads, -newspaper ads. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he have trouble finding work again? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. How long after his return was it before he found a job? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Two to three weeks. - -Mr. RANKIN. When he was unemployed in New Orleans, did he get -unemployment compensation? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know how much he was getting then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. $33 a week. It is possible to live on that money. One can -fail to find work and live. Perhaps you don't believe me. It is not bad -to rest and receive money. - -Mr. RANKIN. When he was unemployed in Dallas, do you know whether he -received unemployment compensation? - -Mrs. OSWALD. We were due to receive unemployment compensation, but it -was getting close to the end of his entitlement period, and we received -one more check. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss with him possible places of employment -after his return from Mexico? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. That was his business. I couldn't help him in that. -But to some extent I did help him find a job, because I was visiting -Mrs. Paine's neighbors. There was a woman there who told me where he -might find some work. - -Mr. RANKIN. And when was this? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. If that is important, I can try and -ascertain date. But I think you probably know. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was it shortly before he obtained work? - -Mrs. OSWALD. As soon as we got the information, the next day he went -there and he did get the job. - -Mr. RANKIN. And who was it that you got the information from? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It was the neighbor whose brother was employed by the -school book depository. He said it seemed to him there was a vacancy -there. - -Mr. RANKIN. What was his name? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. - -The CHAIRMAN. Well, I think we have arrived at our adjournment time. We -will recess now until tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock. - -(Whereupon, at 4:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -_Tuesday, February 4, 1964_ - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED - -The President's Commission met at 10 a.m. on February 4, 1964, at 200 -Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. - -Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman -Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, John -J. McCloy, and Allen W. Dulles, members. - -Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Norman Redlich, -assistant counsel; Leon I. Gopadze and William D. Krimer, interpreters; -and John M. Thorne, attorney for Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald. - - -The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. - -Mr. Rankin, will you proceed with the questioning of Mrs. Oswald. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, there are a number of things about some of the -material we have been over, the period we have been over, that I would -like to ask you about, sort of to fill in different parts of it. I -hope you will bear with us in regard to that. - -Were you aware of the diary that your husband had written and the book -that he had typed? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he hire a public stenographer to help him with his book? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, he wrote his in longhand. He started it in Russia. But -he had it retyped here because it had been in longhand. - -Mr. RANKIN. And do you know about when he started to have it retyped -here? - -Mrs. OSWALD. We arrived in June. I think it was at the end of June. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what happened to that book, or a copy of it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. At the present time it is--I don't know where--the police -department or the FBI. - -Mr. RANKIN. And what was done with the diary? Do you know that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know where it is now. I know that it was taken. -But where it is now, I don't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. It was taken by either the FBI or the Secret Service or the -police department? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know that, because I was not at home when all -these things were taken. - -Mr. RANKIN. Would you tell us about what you know about their being -taken. Were you away from home and someone else was there when various -things belonging to you and your husband were taken from the house? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know where this book was, whether it was at Mrs. -Paine's or in Lee's apartment, because I did not see it there. I was -not at Mrs. Paine's because I lived in a hotel at that time in Dallas. - -Mr. RANKIN. What hotel was that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was this diary kept by your husband daily, so far as you -know? - -Mrs. OSWALD. In Russia? - -Mr. RANKIN. Well, Russia first. - -Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me that he did not continue it here, that he -had completed it in Russia. Not everything, but most of the time. - -Mr. RANKIN. And was it in his own handwriting? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. You have told us about an interview with the FBI, when your -husband went out into the car and spent a couple of hours, in August -of 1962. Do you recall whether there was an FBI interview earlier than -that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, there wasn't. At least I don't know about it. Perhaps -there was such a meeting, perhaps at the time we were in Fort Worth -somebody had come, when we lived with Robert. One reporter wanted to -interview Lee but Lee would not give the interview, and perhaps the FBI -came, too. - -Mr. RANKIN. The particular interview that I am asking you about was -June 26, according to information from the FBI. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know about it. The first time I knew about the FBI -coming was when we lived in Fort Worth. - -Mr. RANKIN. What rental did you pay on Mercedes Street? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any difficulties while you were on Mercedes -Street with your husband--that is, any quarreling there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Only in connection with his mother, because of his mother. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were you having any problems about finances there, on -Mercedes Street? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Of course we did not live in luxury. We did not buy -anything that was not absolutely needed, because Lee had to pay his -debt to Robert and to the government. But it was not particularly -difficult. At least on that basis we had not had any quarrels. - -Mr. RANKIN. Could you tell us about De Mohrenschildt? Was he a close -friend of your husband? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Lee did not have any close friends, but at least -he had--here in America--he had a great deal of respect for De -Mohrenschildt. - -Mr. RANKIN. Could you describe that relationship. Did they see each -other often? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, not very frequently. From time to time. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband tell you why he had so much respect for De -Mohrenschildt? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Because he considered him to be smart, to be full of joy -of living, a very energetic and very sympathetic person. - -Mr. RANKIN. We had a report that---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. It was pleasant to meet with him. He would -bring some pleasure and better atmosphere when he came to visit--with -his dogs--he is very loud. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you like him? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Him and his wife. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you understand any of the conversations between your -husband and De Mohrenschildt? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, they were held in Russian. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did they discuss politics or the Marxist philosophy or -anything of that kind? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Being men, of course, sometimes they talked about -politics, but they did not discuss Marxist philosophy. They spoke about -current political events. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did they have any discussions about President Kennedy or -the Government in the United States at that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, only George said that before she got married he knew -Jackie Kennedy, that she was a very good, very sympathetic woman. Then -he was writing a book, that is George, and with reference to that book -he had written a letter to President Kennedy. This was with reference -to the fact that John Kennedy had recommended physical exercise, -walking and so on, and De Mohrenschildt and his wife had walked to the -Mexican border. And he hoped that John Kennedy would recommend his book. - -I don't know--perhaps this is foolishness. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything, or either of them say anything about -President Kennedy at that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing bad. - -Mr. RANKIN. When you referred to George, did you mean Mr. De -Mohrenschildt? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I generally didn't believe him, that he had written a -book. Sometimes he could say so, but just for amusement. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did De Mohrenschildt have a daughter? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He had several daughters, and many wives. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was one of his daughters named Taylor, her last name? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. That is a daughter of his first marriage. At the -present time, I think he has--that is his fourth wife. - -Mr. RANKIN. And what was her---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. It seems that that is the last one. - -Mr. RANKIN. What was her husband's name--the Taylor daughter? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Gary Taylor. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have anything to do with the Gary Taylors? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, at one time when I had to visit the dentist in -Dallas, and I lived in Fort Worth, I came to Dallas and I stayed with -them for a couple of days. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know about when that was? - -Mrs. OSWALD. October or November, 1962. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did Gary Taylor help you to move your things at one time, -move you and your daughter? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he moved our things from Fort Worth to Dallas, to -Elsbeth Street. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he help you to move to Mrs. Hall's at any time, anyone -else? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, he did not move me to Mrs. Hall. But sometimes he -came for a visit. Once or twice I think he came when we lived--to Mrs. -Hall's, and once when we lived on Mercedes Street. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did he do when he came? Were those just visits? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, just visits. Just visits, with his wife and child. - -Mr. RANKIN. When the De Mohrenschildts came to the house and you showed -them the rifle, did you say anything about it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps I did say something to him, but I don't remember. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything like "Look what my crazy one has done? -Bought a rifle" or something of that kind? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This sounds like something I might say. Perhaps I did. - -Mr. RANKIN. In the period of October 1962, you did spend some time with -Mrs. Hall, did you not, in her home? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us about how that happened? - -Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee found work in Dallas, Elena Hall proposed that -I stay with her for some time, because she was alone, and I would be -company. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did that have anything to do with any quarrels with your -husband? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. During that period of October of 1962, when your husband -went to Dallas to get work, do you know where he lived? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I know that for--at first, for some time he stayed at -the YMcA, but later he rented an apartment, but I don't know at what -address. Because in the letters which he wrote me, the return address -was a post office box. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he stayed during that period part of -the time with Gary Taylor? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Where did you live while your husband was looking for work -and staying at the YMcA and at this apartment that you referred to? - -Mrs. OSWALD. When he stayed at the YMcA he had already found work, and -I was in Fort Worth. - -Mr. RANKIN. And where in Fort Worth were you staying then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. With Mrs. Hall. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you notice a change, psychologically, in your husband -during this period in the United States? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. When did you first notice that change? - -Mrs. OSWALD. At--at Elsbeth Street, in Dallas. After the visit of the -FBI, in Fort Worth. He was for some time nervous and irritable. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he seem to have two different personalities then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Would you describe to the Commission what he did to cause -you to think that he was changing? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Generally he was--usually he was quite as he always was. -He used to help me. And he was a good family man. Sometimes, apparently -without reason, at least I did not know reasons, if any existed, he -became quite a stranger. At such times it was impossible to ask him -anything. He simply kept to himself. He was irritated by trifles. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any of the trifles that irritated him, so as -to help us to know the picture? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It is hard to remember any such trifling occurrences, -sometimes such a small thing as, for example, dinner being five minutes -late, and I do mean five minutes--it is not that I am exaggerating--he -would be very angry. Or if there were no butter on the table, because -he hadn't brought it from the icebox, he would with great indignation -ask, "Why is there no butter?" And at the same time if I had put the -butter on the table he wouldn't have touched it. - -This is foolishness, of course. A normal person doesn't get irritated -by things like that. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I do not ask these questions to pry into your -personal affairs, but it gives us some insight into what he did and why -he might have done the things he did. - -I hope you understand that. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I understand. - -Mr. RANKIN. Could you tell us a little about when he did beat you -because we have reports that at times neighbors saw signs of his -having beat you, so that we might know the occasions and why he did -such things. - -Mrs. OSWALD. The neighbors simply saw that because I have a very -sensitive skin, and even a very light blow would show marks. Sometimes -it was my own fault. Sometimes it was really necessary to just leave -him alone. But I wanted more attention. He was jealous. He had no -reason to be. But he was jealous of even some of my old friends, old in -the sense of age. - -Mr. RANKIN. When he became jealous, did he discuss that with you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did he say? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. - -Basically, that I prefer others to him. That I want many things which -he cannot give me. But that was not so. Once we had a quarrel because I -had a young man who was a boyfriend--this was before we were married, -a boy who was in love with me, and I liked him, too. And I had written -him a letter from here. I had--I wrote him that I was very lonely here, -that Lee had changed a great deal, and that I was sorry that I had not -married him instead, that it would have been much easier for me. I had -mailed that letter showing the post office box as a return address. But -this was just the time when the postage rates went up by one cent, and -the letter was returned. Lee brought that letter and asked me what it -was and forced me to read it. But I refused. Then he sat down across -from me and started to read it to me. I was very much ashamed of my -foolishness. And, of course, he hit me, but he did not believe that -this letter was sincere. He asked me if it was true or not, and I told -him that it was true. But he thought that I did it only in order to -tease him. And that was the end of it. It was a very ill-considered -thing. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall anything more that he said at that time about -that matter? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Of course after he hit me, he said that I should be -ashamed of myself for saying such things because he was very much in -love with me. But this was after he hit me. - -Generally, I think that was right, for such things, that is the right -thing to do. There was some grounds for it. - -Please excuse me. Perhaps I talk too much. - -Mr. RANKIN. When you had your child baptized, did you discuss that with -your husband? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I knew that Lee was not religious, and, therefore, I did -not tell him about it. I lived in Fort Worth at that time, while he -lived in Dallas. - -But when June was baptized, I told him about it, and he didn't say -anything about it. He said it was my business. And he said, "Okay, if -you wish." He had nothing against it. He only took offense at the fact -that I hadn't told him about it ahead of time. - -Mr. RANKIN. Are you a member of any church? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I believe in God, of course, but I do not go to -church--first because I do not have a car. And, secondly, because there -is only one Russian Church. Simply that I believe in God in my own -heart, and I don't think it is necessary to visit the church. - -Mr. RANKIN. While your husband--or while you were visiting the Halls, -did your husband tell you about getting his job in Dallas? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I knew about it before he left for Dallas, that he -already had work there. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall whether your husband rented the apartment in -Dallas about November 3, 1962? - -Mrs. OSWALD. For him? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mrs. OSWALD. He had told me that he rented a room, not an apartment. -But that was in October. - -What date I don't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. And had he obtained an apartment before you went to Dallas -to live with him? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Cleaned everything up. - -Mr. RANKIN. So that you would have gone to Dallas to live with him some -time on or about the date that he rented that apartment? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. After you went to live with him in the apartment at Dallas, -did you separate from him again and go to live with somebody else? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Only after this quarrel. Then I stayed with my friends for -one week. I had already told you about that. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is the Meller matter? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that you called Mrs. Meller and told her -about your husband beating you and she told you to get a cab and come -to stay with her? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, but he didn't beat me. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you didn't tell her that he had beat you, either? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't think so. Perhaps she understood it that he had -beaten me, because it had happened. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you give us any more exact account of where your -husband stayed in the period between October 10 and November 18, 1962? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember his exact address. This was a period when -I did not live with him. - -I am asking about which period is it. I don't remember the dates. - -Mr. RANKIN. The period that he rented the apartment was November 3, so -that shortly after that, as I understood your testimony, you were with -him, from November 3, or about November 3 on to the 18th. Is that right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. From November 3 to November 18, 1962? On Elsbeth Street? -No, I was there longer. - -Mr. RANKIN. And do you recall the date that you went to Mrs. Hall's, -then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't remember. The day when he rented the apartment -was a Sunday. But where he lived before that, I don't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. After you went to live with him in the apartment, around -November 3, how long did you stay before you went to live with your -friend? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Approximately a month and a half. Perhaps a month. I am -not sure. - -Mr. RANKIN. And when you were at Fort Worth, and he was living in -Dallas, did he call you from time to time on the telephone? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he called me and he wrote letters and sometimes he -came for a visit. - -Mr. RANKIN. And during that time, did he tell you where he was staying? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he said that he had rented a room, but he did not -tell me his address. - -I want to help you, but I don't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you think there was something in your husband's life in -America, his friends and so forth, that caused him to be different here? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, he had no friends who had any influence over him. He -himself had changed by comparison to the way he was in Russia. But what -the reason for that was, I don't know. - -Am I giving sufficient answers to your questions? - -Mr. RANKIN. You are doing fine. - -Did your consideration of a divorce from your husband have anything to -do with his ideas and political opinions? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. The only reasons were personal ones with reference to -our personal relationship, not political reasons. - -Mr. RANKIN. In your story you say that what was involved was some of -his crazy ideas and political opinions. Can you tell us what you meant -by that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This was after the case, after the matter of the divorce. -I knew that Lee had such political leanings. - -Mr. RANKIN. With regard to your Russian friends, did you find the time -when they came less to see you and didn't show as much interest in you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you give us about the time, just approximately when you -noticed that difference? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Soon after arriving in Dallas. Mostly it was De -Mohrenschildt who visited us. He was the only one who remained our -friend. The others sort of removed themselves. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why that was? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Because they saw that Lee's attitude towards them was not -very proper, he was not very hospitable, and he was not glad to see -them. They felt that he did not like them. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe what you observed that caused you to -think this, or how your husband acted in regard to these friends? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He told me that he did not like them, that he did not want -them to come to visit. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he show any signs of that attitude towards them? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he was not very talkative when they came for a visit. -Sometimes he would even quarrel with them. - -Mr. RANKIN. When he quarreled with them, was it in regard to political -ideas or what subjects? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, they would not agree with him when he talked on -political matters. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any conversation that you can describe to us? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Of course it is difficult to remember all the -conversations. But I know that they had a difference of opinion with -reference to political matters. My Russian friends did not approve of -everything. I am trying to formulate it more exactly. They did not like -the fact that he was an American who had gone to Russia. I think that -is all. All that I can remember. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did they say about---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. Simply I would be busy, and I didn't listen to -the conversation. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you recall anything else about the conversation or the -substance of it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. When did you first consider the possibility of returning to -the Soviet Union? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I never considered that, but I was forced to because Lee -insisted on it. - -Mr. RANKIN. When you considered it, as you were forced to, by his -insistence, do you know when it was with reference to your first -request to the Embassy, which was February 17, 1963? - -Mrs. OSWALD. February 17? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was a couple of weeks before that, at the -beginning of February. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband know about the letter you sent to the -Embassy on February 17? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Of course. He handed me the paper, a pencil, and said, -"Write." - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you what to put in the letter, or was that your -own drafting? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I knew myself what I had to write, and these were my -words. What could I do if my husband didn't want to live with me? At -least that is what I thought. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever have arguments with your husband about smoking -and drinking wine, other things like that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. About drinking wine, no. But he didn't like the fact that -I smoked, because he neither smoked nor drank. It would have been -better if he had smoked and drank. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us approximately when you first met Ruth Paine? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Soon after New Years--I think it was in January. - -Mr. RANKIN. Would that be 1963? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you describe the circumstances when you met her? - -Mrs. OSWALD. We were invited, together with George De Mohrenschildt -and his wife, to the home of his friend, an American. And Ruth was -acquainted with that American. She was also visiting there. And there -were a number of other people there, Americans. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who was this friend? Do you recall? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember his last name. If you would suggest, -perhaps I could say. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was that Mr. Glover? - -Mrs. OSWALD. What is his first name? - -Mr. RANKIN. Everett. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I don't know his last name. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you talk to Mrs. Paine in Russian at that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. A little, yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did Mrs. Paine ever visit you at Elsbeth Street? - -Mrs. OSWALD. At Neely, on Neely Street. - -Mr. RANKIN. But not at Elsbeth? - -Mrs. OSWALD. We moved soon after that acquaintance. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did your husband treat June? Was he a good father? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes, very good. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you notice any difference in his attitude towards your -child after you saw this change in his personality? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe to the Commission how your husband -treated the baby, and some of his acts, what he did? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He would walk with June, play with her, feed her, change -diapers, take photographs--everything that fathers generally do. - -Mr. RANKIN. He showed considerable affection for her at all times, did -he? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. If I would punish June, he would punish me. - -Mr. RANKIN. When did you first meet Michael Paine? - -Mrs. OSWALD. After I became acquainted with Ruth and she visited me for -the first time, she asked me to come for a visit to her. This was on a -Friday. Her husband, Michael, came for us and drove us to their home in -Irving. - -Mr. RANKIN. They were living together at that time, were they? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did Michael Paine know Russian? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. At the time of the Walker incident, do you recall whether -your husband had his job or had lost it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. You had said that this had happened on a Wednesday, and -it seems to me that it was on a Friday that he was told that he was -discharged. He didn't tell me about it until Monday. - -Mr. RANKIN. But it was on the preceding Friday that he was discharged, -was it not? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, not the preceding Friday--the Friday after the -incident. That is what he told me. - -Mr. RANKIN. If he had lost his job before the Walker incident, you -didn't know it then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. On the day of the Walker shooting did he appear to go to -work as usual? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And when did he return that day, do you recall? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Late at night, about 11. - -Mr. RANKIN. He did not come home for dinner then, before? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he had come home, and then left again. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you notice any difference in his actions when he -returned home and had dinner? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he appear to be excited, nervous? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, he was quite calm. But it seemed to me that inside he -was tense. - -Mr. RANKIN. How could you tell that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I could tell by his face. I knew Lee. Sometimes when some -thing would happen he wouldn't tell me about it, but I could see it in -his eyes, that something had happened. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you saw it this day, did you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. When did he leave the home after dinner? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was about 7. Perhaps 7:30. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you observe whether he took any gun with him? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. He went downstairs. We lived on the second floor. He -said, "Bye-bye." - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you look to see if the gun had been taken when he did -not return? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I didn't look to see. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, we have gone our hour. - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes. I think we will take a 10 minute recess now, so you -might refresh yourself. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you. - -(Brief recess.) - -The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Mr. Rankin, you may -continue. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, you told us about your knowledge about the -trip to Mexico and said that you were under oath and were going to tell -us all about what you knew. - -Did your husband ever ask you not to disclose what you knew about the -Mexican trip? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And when was that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Before he left. I had remained and he was supposed to -leave on the next day, and he warned me not to tell anyone about it. - -Mr. RANKIN. After he returned to Dallas from his Mexico trip, did he -say anything to you then about not telling he had been to Mexico? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he asked me whether I had told Ruth about it or -anyone else, and I told him no, and he said that I should keep quiet -about it. - -Mr. RANKIN. I will hand you Exhibit 1 for identification, and ask you -if you recall seeing that document before. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, this is the note that I found in connection with the -Walker incident. - -Mr. RANKIN. That you already testified about? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And there is attached to it a purported English translation. - -The CHAIRMAN. Do you want that marked and introduced at this time, Mr. -Rankin? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes, I would like to offer the document. - -The CHAIRMAN. The document may be marked Exhibit 1 and offered in -evidence. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what your husband meant when he said on -that note, "The Red Cross also will help you." - -Mrs. OSWALD. I understand that if he were arrested and my money would -run out, I would be able to go to the Red Cross for help. - -Mr. RANKIN. Had you ever discussed that possibility before you found -the note? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why he left you the address book? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Because it contained the addresses and telephone numbers -of his and my friends in Russia and here. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you had seen that book before and knew its contents, -did you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. I will hand you Exhibit 2 for identification and ask you if -you know what that is. - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not that is a photograph of the -Walker house in Dallas? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't see it--at least--taken from this view I can't -recognize it. I know that the photograph of Walker's home which I saw -showed a two-story house. But I don't recognize it from this view. I -never saw the house itself at any time in my life. - -Mr. RANKIN. Does Exhibit 2 for identification appear to be the picture -that you described yesterday of the Walker house that you thought your -husband had taken and put in his book? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. Perhaps this was in his notebook. But I don't remember -this particular one. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rankin, do you want this in the record? - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, she hasn't been able to identify that -sufficiently. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. Perhaps there are some other photographs there -that I might be able to recognize. - -Mr. RANKIN. I will present some more to you, and possibly you can then -pick out the Walker house. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I know these photographs. - -Mr. RANKIN. I now hand you a photograph which has been labeled Exhibit -4 for identification. I ask if you can identify the subject of that -photograph, or those photographs. - -Mrs. OSWALD. All of them? - -Mr. RANKIN. Whichever ones you can. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I know one shows Walker's house. Another is a photograph -from Leningrad. P-3--this is probably New Orleans. P-4--Leningrad. It -is a photograph showing the castle square in Leningrad. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you point out by number the photograph of the Walker -house? - -Mrs. OSWALD. P-2. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether the photographs on Exhibit 4 for -identification were part of your husband's photographs? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I offer Exhibit 4 for identification in -evidence. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 2, and received -in evidence.) - -Mr. DULLES. What is being offered--the whole of it, or just P-2? - -Mr. RANKIN. No, all of it--because she identified the others, too, as a -part of the photographs that belonged to her husband. And she pointed -out P-2 as being the Walker residence. - -When did you first see this photograph of the Walker residence, P-2, in -this Exhibit 2? - -Mrs. OSWALD. After the Walker incident Lee showed it to me. - -Mr. RANKIN. And how did you know it was a photograph of the Walker -residence? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He told me that. - -Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 3 for identification. I ask you if you -can identify the photographs there. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, these are all our photographs. P-1 is Walker's house. -P-4 and P-3 is a photograph showing me and a girlfriend of mine in -Minsk, after a New Year's party, on the morning, on January 1. Before I -was married. This was taken early in the morning, after we had stayed -overnight in the suburbs. P-5 shows Paul--Pavel Golovachev. He is -assembling a television set. He sent us this photograph. He is from -Minsk. He worked in the same factory as Lee did. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us which one is the picture of the Walker -house on that exhibit? - -Mrs. OSWALD. P-1. - -Mr. RANKIN. And when did you first see that exhibit, P-1, of Exhibit 3? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Together with the other one. P-2 and P-6, I know that they -are Lee's photographs, but I don't know what they depict. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were you shown the P-1 photograph of that Exhibit 3 at -the same time you were shown the other one that you have identified -regarding the Walker house? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me that that is so. I don't remember exactly. -It is hard to remember. - -Mr. RANKIN. And was that the evening after your husband returned from -the Walker shooting? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. This was on one of the succeeding days. - -Mr. RANKIN. By succeeding, you mean within two or three days after the -shooting? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence Exhibit 3. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 3, and was -received in evidence.) - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember the photograph, the first one that you -showed me. I only assumed that was Walker's house. - -Mr. RANKIN. But the other ones, you do remember those photographs? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, the others I do. - -Mr. RANKIN. When you say you do not remember the picture of the Walker -house, you are referring to the Exhibit 2 for identification that we -did not offer in evidence, that I will show you now? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that your husband showed you any other -exhibits that were pictures of the Walker house at the time he -discussed the Walker shooting with you, beyond those that I have shown -you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. I shall hand you Exhibit---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. There was some railroad--not just a photograph of a house. -Perhaps there were some others. There were several photographs. - -Mr. RANKIN. I shall hand you Exhibit 4 for identification---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. One photograph with a car. - -Mr. RANKIN. ----if you can recall the photographs on that exhibit. - -Mrs. OSWALD. As for P-1 and P-2, I don't know what they are. - -P-3, that is Lee in the Army. - -P-4, I don't know what that is. - -P-5, I did see this photograph with Lee--he showed it to me after the -incident. - -Mr. RANKIN. When your husband showed you the photograph P-5, did -he discuss with you what that showed, how it related to the Walker -shooting? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. I simply see that this is a photograph of a railroad. -It was in that book. And I guessed, myself, that it had some sort of -relationship to the incident. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence photographs P-3 and P-5 on this exhibit. - -The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted, and take the next number. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 4, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, I shall hand you Exhibit 6 for identification and ask -you if you recognize those two photographs. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. These photographs I know, both of them. They seem to -be identical. Walker's house. - -Mr. RANKIN. When did you first see those exhibits? - -Mrs. OSWALD. After the incident. - -Mr. RANKIN. About the same time that you saw the other pictures of the -Walker house that you have described? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband tell you why he had these photographs? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't tell me, but I guessed, myself--I concluded -myself that these photographs would help him in that business. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is the business of the shooting at the Walker house? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence the two photographs in this exhibit. - -The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted and take the next number. - -(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 5, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Before you told the Commission about the Walker shooting, -and your knowledge, did you tell anyone else about it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, to the members of the Secret Service and the FBI. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell your mother-in-law? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I also told his mother about it. - -Mr. RANKIN. When did you tell his mother about the incident? - -Mrs. OSWALD. After Lee was arrested, on Saturday--he was arrested on -Friday. I don't remember when I met with his mother--whether it was on -the same Friday--yes, Friday evening. I met her at the police station. -From there we went to Ruth Paine's where I lived at that time. And she -remained overnight, stayed overnight there. I had a photograph of Lee -with the rifle, which I gave. At that time I spoke very little English. -I explained as best I could about it. And that is why I showed her the -photograph. And I told her that Lee had wanted to kill Walker. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, turning to the period when you were in New Orleans, -did you write to the Russian Embassy about going to Russia, returning -to Russia at that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was that about the first part of July, that you wrote? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Probably. - -Mr. RANKIN. And then did you write a second letter to follow up the -first one? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 6 for identification and ask you if that -is the first letter that you sent to the Embassy. Take your time and -look at it. - -Mrs. OSWALD. This was not the first letter, but it was the first letter -written from New Orleans. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you examine the photostat that has just been handed -to you, and tell us whether or not that was the first letter that you -wrote to the Embassy about this matter? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, this is a reply to my first letter. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you examine the one that you now have, and state -whether that is the first letter? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, this was the first. This was only the declaration. -But there was a letter in addition to it. - -Mr. RANKIN. The declaration was a statement that you wished to return -to the Soviet Russia? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, about granting me a visa. - -Mr. RANKIN. And what date does that bear? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It is dated March 17, 1963. - -Mr. RANKIN. And did you send it with your letter about the date that it -bears? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -I don't know--perhaps a little later, because I was not very anxious to -send this. - -Mr. RANKIN. But you did send it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And it might have been within a few days or a few weeks of -that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. Do we have the date of the second letter? - -Mr. RANKIN. I want to go step by step. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes, I understand. That is not introduced yet. - -Mr. RANKIN. It might be confusing if we get them out of order. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, this is the first letter. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, the photostatic document that you have just referred -to as being the first letter, does it bear a date? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the date? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It says there the 17th of February. - -Mr. RANKIN. And do you know that that letter had attached to it your -declaration that you just referred to? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it seems to me. Perhaps it was attached to the next -letter. I am not sure. - -Mr. RANKIN. This letter of February 17 that you referred to as the -first letter is in your handwriting? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you examine the translation into English that -is attached to it and inform us whether or not that is a correct -translation? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I can't do that, because---- - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Interpreter, can you help us in that regard, and tell -her whether it is a correct translation? - -Mr. KRIMER. If I may translate it from the English, she could check it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Would you kindly do that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is a quite correct translation. I didn't want to, but -I had to compose some such letters. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence the photostatic copy of the letter in -Russian as Exhibit 6. - -The CHAIRMAN. Together with the translation that is attached to it? - -Mr. RANKIN. Together with the translation that is attached to it as -Exhibit 7. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted and take the next number. - -(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 6 and 7, -respectively, and received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. I hand you again the declaration, Exhibit 8, and ask you if -that accompanied the first letter, Exhibit 6, that you have referred to? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember whether it accompanied the first letter -or the second letter with which I had enclosed some photographs and -filled out questionnaires. - -Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 9 and ask you if that is the second -letter that you have just referred to. - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, this was perhaps the third. Perhaps I could help you, -if you would show me all the letters, I would show you the sequence. - -Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 9, dated March 8, 1963, and ask you -if you can tell whether that is the letter which accompanied the -declaration. - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is a reply from the Embassy, a reply to my first -letter. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, may we have a short recess to get the -original exhibits that we have prepared, and I think we can expedite -our hearing. - -The CHAIRMAN. Very well. We will have a short recess. - -(Brief recess.) - -The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will come to order. We will proceed. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, we will see if we have these in proper order -now. - -I will call your attention to the photostats of the declaration and -the accompanying papers that I shall now call Exhibit 8 to replace the -references to Exhibit 8 and 9 that we made in prior testimony, and ask -you to examine that and see if they were sent together by you to the -Embassy. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I sent this after I received an answer from the Embassy, -an answer to my first letter. This is one and the same. Two separate -photostats of the same declaration. All of these documents were -attached to my second letter after the answer to my first. - -Mr. RANKIN. I call your attention to Exhibit 9, and ask you if that is -the answer to your first letter that you have just referred to. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, this is the answer to that letter. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you compare the translation? - -Mrs. OSWALD. The only thing is that the address and the telephone -number of the Embassy are not shown in the Russian original. They are -in the translation. - -Mr. RANKIN. Otherwise the translation is correct, is it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Otherwise, yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I ask leave to substitute the Exhibit No. 8 -for what I have called 9, as the reply of the Embassy, so that we won't -be confused about the order of these. - -The CHAIRMAN. The correction may be made. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence the original and the translation of -Exhibit 8, except for the address of the Embassy, which was not on the -original. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted, and take the next number. - -(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 8, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, as I understand, what I will call Exhibit 9 now, to -correct the order in which these letters were sent to the Embassy, -was your response to the letter of the Embassy dated March 8, is that -correct? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you compare the translation with the interpreter and -advise us if it is correct? - -Mr. KRIMER. It says, "Application" in the translation; the Russian word -is "Declaration". - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you note that correction, Mr. Krimer, please? - -Mr. KRIMER. In pencil? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mr. KRIMER. Crossing out the word "application". - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. KRIMER. Sir, this was a printed questionnaire, and there is a -translator note on here which states that since printed questions are -given both in Russian and English translation, only the answer portion -of the document is being translated. - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. RANKIN. You have now examined Exhibit 9 and the translation into -English from that exhibit where it was in Russian and compared them -with the interpreter, have you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, correct. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you find the translation is correct? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 9, being the Russian -communications, and the English translations. - -The CHAIRMAN. The documents may be admitted with the next number. - -(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 9, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, do you recall that in the letter from the -Embassy of March 8, which is known as Commission's Exhibit 8, that you -were told that the time of processing would take 5 to 6 months? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss that with your husband? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And about when did you do that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. What is the date of that letter? - -Mr. RANKIN. March 8. - -Mrs. OSWALD. At that time we did not discuss it. We discussed it in New -Orleans. Or more correctly, we thought that if everything is in order, -I would be able to leave before the birth of my second child. - -Mr. RANKIN. And did you discuss that idea with your husband? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you think that you discussed it with him while you were -at New Orleans? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that it is also requested in the letter of -March 8 from the Embassy, Commission's Exhibit 8, that you furnish one -or two letters from relatives residing in the Soviet Union who were -inviting you to live with them? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, but I didn't have any such letters and I did not -enclose any. - -Mr. RANKIN. You never did send such letters to the Embassy, did you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. After you sent Exhibit 9 to the Embassy, did you have -further correspondence with them? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. I will hand you Exhibit 10, a letter purporting to be from -the Embassy dated April 18, and ask you if you recall that. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I remember that. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you please compare the translation with the Russian? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, the translation is correct. - -Mr. RANKIN. We offer the exhibit in evidence, together with the -translation. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted with the next number. - -(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 10, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you note that the Embassy invited you to come and visit -them personally? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever do that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. I hand you a letter purporting to be from the Embassy, -dated June 4, marked Exhibit 11, and ask you if you recall receiving -that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. This is a second request to visit the Embassy. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you please compare the translation with the Russian? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Correct. - -Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 11, being the Russian letter -from the Embassy together with the English translation. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted and take the next number. - -(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 11, and -received in evidence.) - -The CHAIRMAN. We will now recess for lunch. - -The Commission will reconvene at 2 o'clock. - -(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the Commission recessed.) - - - - -Afternoon Session - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED - - -The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m. - -The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will convene. - -Mr. Rankin, you may continue. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I will now give you Exhibit 12 to examine and -ask you to compare the Russian with the English translation. - -Mrs. OSWALD. The translation is correct. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 12, being the Russian letter, -and the English translation. - -The CHAIRMAN. The documents are admitted under that number. - -(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 12, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, this Exhibit 13 that you have just examined in -Russian, is that your letter, Mrs. Oswald, to the Embassy? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Is that No. 12? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it is. - -Mr. RANKIN. And is it in your handwriting? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you find any date on the letter? I didn't. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I probably didn't date it. No. I wrote this from New -Orleans. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell the Commission the approximate date you wrote -it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. What was the date of the preceding letter, No. 11--Exhibit -No. 11? - -Mr. RANKIN. June 4, 1963. - -Mrs. OSWALD. This was probably in July, but I don't know the date. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you notice there was a "P.S." on Exhibit 12? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Referring to an application by your husband? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And was an application for your husband for a visa included -or enclosed with Exhibit 12 when you sent it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Lee told me that he had sent an application, but it was he -who put this letter in an envelope and addressed it, so I don't know -whether it was there or not. - -Mr. RANKIN. And when you say that it was he that put the letter into -the envelope and addressed it, you mean this Exhibit 12, that was a -letter that you had written? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do I understand you correctly that you do not know whether -his application was included because he handled the mailing of it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. I will hand you Exhibit 13 and ask you if you recall that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember this. He did not write this in my -presence. But it is Lee's handwriting. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Krimer, will you please translate it for her so she -will know the contents. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Why "separately"--the word "separately" here is underlined. - -Mr. RANKIN. I was going to ask you. But since you have not seen it -before, I guess you cannot help us. - -Is this the first time that you knew that he had ever asked that his -visa be handled separately from yours? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I didn't know this. Because I hadn't seen this letter. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 13. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 13, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Is the word "separately" the last word of the letter that -you are referring to--that is the word that you asked about? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Was that underlined by Lee? - -Mr. RANKIN. That is the way we received it, Mrs. Oswald. We assume it -was underlined by your husband. We know that it was not underlined by -the Commission, and no one in the Government that had anything to do -with it has ever told us that they had anything to do with underlining -it. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think that perhaps he asked for that visa to be -considered separately because the birth of the child might complicate -matters, and perhaps he thought it would speed it up if they do -consider it separately. - -Mr. RANKIN. In connection with that thought, I will hand you Exhibit -14, and ask you to examine that and tell us whether you have seen that -before. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you please compare the translation in English? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, the translation is all right. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence the letter in Russian, Exhibit 14, and -the English translation. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted under that number. - -(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 14, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any impression that your husband may not have -planned to go back to Russia himself, but was merely trying to arrange -for you and your daughter to go back? - -Mrs. OSWALD. At that time I did not think so, but now I think perhaps. -Because he planned to go to Cuba. - -Mr. RANKIN. By that you mean you think he may have planned to go to -Cuba and never go beyond Cuba, but stay in Cuba? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think that in time he would have wanted to come and see -me. - -Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 15 and ask you whether you remember -having seen that before. - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell whether your husband's handwriting is on that -exhibit? - -Mrs. OSWALD. The signature is his, yes. I would like to have it -translated. - -Mr. RANKIN. Would you translate it for her, please, Mr. Krimer? - -Mrs. OSWALD. A crazy letter. Perhaps from this I could conclude that he -did want to go to the Soviet Union--but now I am lost, I don't know. -Because--perhaps because nothing came out of his Cuban business, -perhaps that is why he decided to go to the Soviet Union. The letter is -not too polite, in my opinion. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 15. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 15, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chief Justice, I think in the examination about this -letter, if I would circulate it to the Commission it would be a -little clearer what it is all about--if you could have a moment or -two to examine it, I think it would help in your understanding of the -examination. - -Mrs. OSWALD. This was typed on the typewriter belonging to Ruth. - -Mr. RANKIN. You can tell that by the looks of the typing, can you, Mrs. -Oswald? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't know, but I know that he was typing there. I -don't know what he was typing. - -Mr. RANKIN. And it is Ruth Paine's typewriter that you are referring -to, when you say Ruth? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Ruth Paine. Because Lee did not have a typewriter, and it -is hardly likely that he would have had it typed somewhere else. - -Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 16, which purports to be the envelope -for the letter, Exhibit 15. Have you ever seen that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. The envelope I did see. I did not see the letter, but I -did see the envelope. Lee had retyped it some 10 times or so. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall or could you clarify for us about the date on -the envelope--whether it is November 2 or November 12? - -Mrs. OSWALD. November 12. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 16. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 16, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. I might call your attention, Mrs. Oswald, to the fact that -Exhibit 15, the letter, is dated November 9. Does that help you any? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Then this must be 12. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is the only way you can determine it, is it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have anything to do with the mailing of this -letter, Exhibit 15? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yesterday you testified to the fact that your husband told -you about his trip to Mexico when he returned, is that right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Where were you when he told you about it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. In the home of Mrs. Paine, in my room. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was there anyone other than yourself and your husband -present when he told you about it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us in as much detail as you can remember just -what he said about the trip at that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Everything that I could remember I told you yesterday. I -don't remember any more about it. - -Mr. RANKIN. At that time---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. But I asked him that we not go to Russia, I told him that -I did not want to, and he said, "Okay." - -Mr. RANKIN. That was in this same conversation, after he had told you -about the trip to Mexico? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. When he asked you not to tell anyone about the trip to -Mexico, did he tell you why he asked you to do that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. I knew that he was secretive, and that he loved to -make secrets of things. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you know the Comrade Kostin that is referred to in this -letter of November 8, Exhibit 15? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I never wrote to him. I don't know. I don't know where he -got that name from. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband say anything about Comrade Kostin and his -visit with him at the embassy in Mexico City, when he told you about -the trip? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He did not name him. He didn't tell me his name. But he -told me he was a very pleasant, sympathetic person, who greeted him, -welcomed him there. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband say anything to you about what he meant -when he said he could not take a chance on requesting a new visa unless -he used a real name, so he returned to the United States? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, he didn't tell me about it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you understand that he had used any assumed name about -going to Mexico? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. He never told you anything of that kind? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. After Lee returned from Mexico, I lived in Dallas, -and Lee gave me his phone number and then when he changed his -apartment--Lee lived in Dallas, and he gave me his phone number. And -then when he moved, he left me another phone number. - -And once when he did not come to visit during the weekend, I telephoned -him and asked for him by name--rather, Ruth telephoned him and it -turned out there was no one there by that name. When he telephoned -me again on Monday, I told him that we had telephoned him but he was -unknown at that number. - -Then he said that he had lived there under an assumed name. He asked me -to remove the notation of the telephone number in Ruth's phone book, -but I didn't want to do that. I asked him then, "Why did you give us a -phone number, when we do call we cannot get you by name?" - -He was very angry, and he repeated that I should remove the notation of -the phone number from the phone book. And, of course, we had a quarrel. -I told him that this was another of his foolishness, some more of his -foolishness. I told Ruth Paine about this. It was incomprehensible to -me why he was so secretive all the time. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he give you any explanation of why he was using an -assumed name at that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he did not want his landlady to know his real -name because she might read in the paper of the fact that he had been -in Russia and that he had been questioned. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you say about that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing. And also he did not want the FBI to know where he -lived. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you why he did not want the FBI to know where -he lived? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Because their visits were not very pleasant for him and -he thought that he loses jobs because the FBI visits the place of his -employment. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, if he was using an assumed name during the trip in -Mexico, you didn't know about it, is that correct? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't know, that is correct. - -Mr. RANKIN. Before the trip to Mexico, did your husband tell you that -he did not expect to contact the Soviet Embassy there about the visa? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he was going to visit the Soviet Embassy, but -more for the purpose of getting to Cuba, to try to get to Cuba. I think -that was more than anything a masking of his purpose. He thought that -this would help. - -Mr. RANKIN. You mean it was a masking of his purpose to visit the -Soviet Embassy in Mexico, or to write it in this letter? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't understand the question. - -Mr. RANKIN. You noticed where he said in this letter "I had not planned -to contact the Soviet Embassy in Mexico," did you not? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Why hadn't he planned that? - -Mr. RANKIN. That is what I am trying to find out from you. - -Did he ever tell you that he didn't plan to visit the Soviet Embassy? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is not the truth. He did want to contact the embassy. - -Mr. RANKIN. And he told you before he went to Mexico that he planned to -visit the Soviet Embassy, did he? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever say to you before he went to Mexico that he -planned to communicate with the Soviet Embassy in Havana? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he said that if he would be able to get to Cuba, with -the intention of living there, he would get in touch with the Soviet -Embassy for the purpose of bringing me there. Or for him to go to -Russia. Because sometimes he really sincerely wanted to go to Russia -and live and sometimes not. He did not know, himself. He was very -changeable. - -Mr. RANKIN. But in Exhibit 15, Mrs. Oswald, he refers to the fact that -he hadn't been able to reach the Soviet Embassy in Havana as planned, -and then he says, "The Embassy there would have had time to complete -our business." - -Now, did he discuss that at all with you before he went to Mexico? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. If he said in Mexico City that he wanted to visit the -Soviet Embassy in Havana, the reason for it was only that he thereby -would be able to get to Cuba. - -Is this understandable? Does this clarify the matter or not? - -Mr. RANKIN. The difficulty, Mrs. Oswald, with my understanding of -Exhibit 15 is that he purports to say, as I read the letter, that if he -had been able to reach the Soviet Embassy in Havana, he would have been -able to complete his business about the visa, and he wouldn't have had -to get in touch with the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City at all. - -Mrs. OSWALD. The thing is that one cannot go to Cuba--that the only -legal way is via Mexico City. And, therefore, he went to the Soviet -Embassy there in Mexico City and told them that he wanted to visit the -Soviet Embassy in Havana, but only for the purpose of getting into Cuba. - -I don't think he would have concluded his business there. I don't -think that you understand that Lee has written that letter in a quite -involved manner. It is not very logical. I don't know whether it is -clear to you or not. - -Mr. RANKIN. I appreciate, Mrs. Oswald, your interpretation of it. - -I was trying to find out also whether your husband had told you -anything about what he meant or what he did or whether he had tried to -contact the Embassy in Havana, as he says in this letter. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I don't know of this letter. I only know that Lee -wanted to get to Cuba by any means. - -Mr. RANKIN. Then he next proceeds to say, "Of course the Soviet Embassy -was not at fault. They were, as I say, unprepared". As I read that, -I understand that he was trying to let the Embassy in Washington -know that the Mexico City Embassy had not been notified by him, and, -therefore, was unprepared. - -Now, did he say anything like that to you after his return to Mexico? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Why did the Embassy in Washington have to notify the -Embassy in Mexico City that Lee Oswald was arriving? - -It is not that I am asking. It seems to me that this is not a normal -thing. - -Mr. RANKIN. The question is did he say anything to you about it when he -got back? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He said that when he went to the Soviet Embassy in Mexico -City they had promised him that they would write a letter to the -Embassy in Washington. - -Please excuse me, but it is very difficult for me to read the involved -thoughts of Lee. - -I think that he was confused himself, and I certainly am. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is that all that you can recall that was said about that -matter? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Then he goes on to say---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. I only know that his basic desire was to get to -Cuba by any means, and that all the rest of it was window dressing for -that purpose. - -Mr. RANKIN. Then in this Exhibit 15 he proceeds to say, "The Cuban -Consulate was guilty of a gross breach of regulations." Do you know -what he meant by that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. What regulations--what are the regulations? - -Mr. RANKIN. I am trying to find out from you. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know about that. I don't know what happened. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever say what regulations he thought were breached, -or that the Cuban Embassy didn't carry out regulations when he returned -from his trip and told you about what happened there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. Then he goes on to say in the Exhibit, "I am glad he has -since been replaced." - -Do you know whom he was referring to? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I have no knowledge of it. I think that if the person -to whom this letter was addressed would read the letter he wouldn't -understand anything, either. - -Mr. RANKIN. Your husband goes on in Exhibit 15 to say, "The Federal -Bureau of Investigation is not now interested in my activities in the -progressive organization 'Fair Play for Cuba Committee' of which I was -secretary in New Orleans (State of Louisiana) since I no longer reside -in that state." - -Do you know why he would say anything like that to the Embassy? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Because he was crazy. - -He wrote this in order to emphasize his importance. He was no secretary -of any--he was not a secretary of any organization. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know that he had received any inquiry from the -Embassy or anyone of the Soviet Union about the matters that he is -telling about here? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. I don't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. Then he goes on to say, "However, the FBI has visited us -here in Dallas, Texas, on November 1. Agent James P. Hosty"--do you -know whether there was such a visit by that man? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And was he referring to the man that you know as James P. -Hosty? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know his last name. He gave us his telephone -number, but it seems to me that his name was different. - -Mr. RANKIN. After you received the telephone number, what did you do -with it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He gave the telephone number to Ruth, and she, in turn, -passed it on to Lee. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he put it in a book or did anything -with it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He took the note with him to Dallas. I don't know what he -did with it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did the agent also give his license number for his car to -Mrs. Paine or to you or to your husband? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. But Lee had asked me that if an FBI agent were to -call, that I note down his automobile license number, and I did that. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you give the license number to him when you noted it -down? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, he goes on to say that this agent, James P. Hosty -"warned me that if I engaged in FPCC activities in Texas the FBI will -again take an 'interest' in me." - -Do you remember anything about anything like that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know why he said that in there, because if he has -in mind the man who visited us, that man had never seen Lee. He was -talking to me and to Mrs. Paine. But he had never met Lee. Perhaps this -is another agent, not the one who visited us. - -But I don't know whether Lee had talked to him or not. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether any FBI agent had ever warned your -husband that if he engaged in any Fair Play for Cuba activities in -Texas, the FBI would be again interested in him? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I didn't know that. - -Mr. RANKIN. Then in the exhibit he goes on to say, "This agent also -'suggested' to Marina Nichilyeva that she could remain in the United -States under FBI protection." - -Did you ever hear of anything like that before? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I had not been proposed anything of the sort at any time. - -The only thing the agent did say is that if I had ever any kind of -difficulties or troubles in the sense that someone would try to force -me to do something, to become an agent, then I should get in touch with -him, and that if I don't want to do this, that they would help me. But -they never said that I live here and that I must remain here under -their protection. - -Mr. RANKIN. Then in this Exhibit 15 he goes on to explain what he means -by the word "protection", saying "That is, she could defect from the -Soviet Union, of course." Do you remember anybody saying anything like -that to you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, no one said anything like that. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone at any time, while you were in the United -States, suggest that you become an agent of any agency of the United -States? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, never. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone from the Soviet Union suggest that you be an -agent for that government, or any of its agencies? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, in this Exhibit 15, your husband goes on to say, "I -and my wife strongly protested tactics by the notorious FBI." - -Do you know of any protest of that kind, or any action of that kind? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know of any protests, but simply that I said -that I would prefer not to get these visits, because they have a very -exciting and disturbing effect upon my husband. But it was not a -protest. This was simply a request. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you never made any protests against anyone asking you -to act as an agent or to defect to the United States because no one -asked you that, is that right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No one ever asked me. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know of anything that you could tell the Commission -in regard to these matters in this letter, Exhibit 15, that would shed -more light on what your husband meant or what he was trying to do, that -you have not already told us? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Everything that I could tell you with reference to this -letter I have told you. - -The CHAIRMAN. I think we will take a short recess now, about 10 minutes. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I would like to help you, but I simply don't know, I -cannot. - -(Brief recess) - -The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. - -Mr. Rankin, you may proceed. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I will hand you again Exhibit 14 and the -translation from the Russian and call your attention to the urgency of -your request there. I ask you, was that your idea to press for help -from the Embassy in regard to the visa, or your husband's? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Of course my husband. - -Mr. RANKIN. At the time of Exhibit 14, then, you were not anxious to -return to Russia? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I never wanted to return but Lee insisted and there is -nothing else I could do. But sometimes when I wrote these letters, I -felt very lonely--since my husband didn't want me, I felt perhaps this -would be the best way. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know the Spanish language? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps five words. - -Mr. RANKIN. Have you given it any study? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. I have a Spanish textbook of the Spanish language and -I had intended to study even while I was still in Russia, but I never -did. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband ever study Spanish that you know of? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't study it, but before his trip to Mexico he would -sit down with the textbook and look at it. - -Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 17 and ask you if you recall having seen -that before. - -Mrs. OSWALD. May I take it out? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mrs. OSWALD. June seems to have played with it. This was Lee's study of -Spanish perhaps because this was all photographed, it is soiled. Here I -helped Lee. I wrote some Spanish words. - -Mr. RANKIN. Does that Exhibit 17 have any of your husband's handwriting -on it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Some of it is my handwriting and some of it is Lee's -handwriting. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us when he was trying to study Spanish? Was it -at any time with regard to the time when he planned to go to Cuba? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. About when did he start? - -Mrs. OSWALD. In August, in New Orleans, 1963. - -Mr. RANKIN. And whatever he did in this notebook, Exhibit 17, he did at -that time or thereafter? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, this was in September. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he do whatever writing he did in connection with the -study of the Spanish language in Exhibit 17 at New Orleans in August or -after that date? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Do you want to know whether this was earlier than August or later? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, not earlier. This was in September, not in August. - -Mr. RANKIN. And did he do anything in the writing of what is in Exhibit -17 in the study of the Spanish language at Dallas, that you know of? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 17. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be marked with the next number and received in -evidence. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 17, and -received in evidence.) - -Mrs. OSWALD. How a simple notebook can become a matter of material -evidence--the Spanish words in it, and June's scribbling on it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Returning to the time that your husband came back from -Mexico City to Dallas, can you tell us what type of luggage he brought -back with him? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He had a military type raincoat with him and a small bag -with a zipper, blue in color. - -Mr. RANKIN. As far as you recall he did not have two bags that he -brought back with him from Mexico? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he spend the first weekend of October 4 to 6 with you -at the Paines? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, not the whole weekend. When he returned he stayed -overnight and then he went to Dallas. But he returned on Saturday or -Friday evening. And he remained until Monday. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you notice any change in your husband after this trip -to Mexico? - -Mrs. OSWALD. In my opinion, he was disappointed at not being able to -get to Cuba, and he didn't have any great desire to do so any more -because he had run into, as he himself said--into bureaucracy and red -tape. And he changed for the better. He began to treat me better. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us how he treated you better? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He helped me more--although he always did help. But he was -more attentive. Perhaps this was because he didn't live together with -me but stayed in Dallas. Perhaps, also because we expected a child and -he was in somewhat an elated mood. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband have any money with him when he returned -from Mexico? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he had some left. But I never counted how much money -he had in his wallet. That is why I don't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was it a small or a large amount or do you know that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. What would be a large amount for me would not be a large -amount for you. - -Mr. RANKIN. Well, can you give us any estimate of what you think he had? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He might have had $50 or $70, thereabouts. It is necessary -sometimes to make a joke. Otherwise, it gets boring. - -Mr. RANKIN. After the first weekend, after your husband returned, which -he spent at the Paines, as you have described, where did he live in -Dallas? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he rented a room in Oak Cliff, but I don't -know the address. I didn't ask, because I didn't need it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know that he lived with a Mrs. Bledsoe at any time -in Dallas? - -Mrs. OSWALD. In what sense do you mean "lived with"? - -Mr. RANKIN. I mean roomed in her home. - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. That was a place on Marsallis Street? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know about it. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did he return from Irving to Dallas at that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Ruth met him at the bus station at that time and drove him -home. By bus. - -Mr. RANKIN. You said before that you learned about the depository job -at some neighbor's home, is that right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. In whose home was that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know her last name. When you walk out of the Paine -house, it is the first house to the right. I am trying to remember. -Perhaps later I will. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was it the lady of that house who told you, or someone that -was a guest there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps you know the name. - -Mr. RANKIN. We don't know the name of the lady next door. We know a -number of names, but not by the location. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Her first name is Dorothy. And there was another woman -there, another neighbor, who said that her brother worked at the -depository, and that as far as she knew, there was a vacancy there. - -Mr. RANKIN. And what was the name of that neighbor whose brother worked -at the depository? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was that Mrs. Randle? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. I might know her first name if you mention -it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is there a Linnie Mae Randle that you remember? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was she a sister of Mr. Frazier? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know such people. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know a Mr. Frazier that had a job at the depository? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't know his name. I knew that it was a young man. I -don't think he was 18 yet. - -Mr. RANKIN. And was he the brother of this friend who was at the -neighbor's house? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And he was the one that your husband rode from Irving into -Dallas from time to time to go to work, did he? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, after Lee was already working this boy would bring -Lee and take him back with him to Dallas. - -Mr. RANKIN. And when did he take him, ordinarily? - -Mrs. OSWALD. 8 o'clock in the morning. - -Mr. RANKIN. And did he take him on Monday morning? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Usually each week he would take him on Monday morning? - -Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee came for a weekend, yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And then when did he bring him back from Dallas? - -Mrs. OSWALD. At 5:30 on Friday. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband ever come in the middle of the week? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, only during the last week when all of this happened -with reference to the assassination of the President--he came on a -Thursday. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did Mrs. Paine have anything to do with your husband -getting this job at the depository? - -Mrs. OSWALD. She had no direct connection with it, but an indirect -connection, of course. I lived with her and she talked to a neighbor -and mentioned that Lee was out of work. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was it Mrs. Paine that found out about the job, then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. And she telephoned there and asked whether they had -a job available. They didn't say anything specific but they asked that -Lee come there on the following day. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you find out whether your husband did go there the -following day? - -Mrs. OSWALD. On the following day he went there, had a talk with them, -and he telephoned that he had already received the job. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he telephone to you or to Mrs. Paine about getting the -job? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He telephoned me. But, of course, he thanked Ruth. - -Mr. RANKIN. And when did he start on the job? Was there two or three -days before he got the job and started, or more than that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think that he started on the day following being -accepted for the job. I think it was either on the 14th, 15th, or 16th -of October. - -Mr. RANKIN. When he was staying at Mrs. Bledsoe's rooming house, did he -call you and give you the number there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall where he was when he gave this fictitious -name? - -Mrs. OSWALD. What do you mean where he was? From where he telephoned? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes, or the number that he gave you--that is the rooming -house that he was at when he used this fictitious name, and you told us -you called there. - -Mrs. OSWALD. He lived at first in one place, and then he changed. It -was the last place where he had given a fictitious name. I don't know -what name he lived under in the first place, because I never telephoned -him. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know the name that he lived under in the second -place, when you did call him? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. You don't remember the fictitious name that he gave you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I read in the paper after everything happened, but at that -time I didn't know. He said that his last name was Lee. He didn't say -that. I read that in the paper. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did that remind you, then, that that was the name they gave -you when you called and he answered the telephone? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, no one told me anything. I didn't know under what name -he lived there. - -Mr. RANKIN. But you found out that he was not living under his own -name, is that what you meant before? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. After he got his job, did he return the next weekend to see -you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember whether that time he returned was on Friday -or Saturday? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It was on Friday, October 18. It was his birthday. - -He stopped with Ruth. On Sunday I went to the hospital, and he stayed -overnight from Monday until Tuesday. - -Mr. RANKIN. After your husband returned from Mexico, did you examine -the rifle in the garage at any time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I had never examined the rifle in the garage. It was -wrapped in a blanket and was lying on the floor. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever check to see whether the rifle was in the -blanket? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I never checked to see that. There was only once that I -was interested in finding out what was in that blanket, and I saw that -it was a rifle. - -Mr. RANKIN. When was that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. About a week after I came from New Orleans. - -Mr. RANKIN. And then you found that the rifle was in the blanket, did -you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I saw the wooden part of it, the wooden stock. - -Mr. RANKIN. On the weekend before your husband got his job at the -depository, did he spend that with you at the Paines? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he come home Friday or Saturday? - -Mrs. OSWALD. On a Friday. - -Mr. RANKIN. When he returned to Dallas on Monday, the 14th of October, -did he tell you he was going to change his room? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember what your husband's pay was at the -depository? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me that it was also $1.25. - -Mr. RANKIN. About how much a month did it run? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me it was $210 to $230. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the hours that he worked? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It seems that--it seems to me that it was from 8:30 a.m. -to 5 p.m. - -Mr. RANKIN. And did he work the weekend or any overtime? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. It does happen in that depository that they work -overtime. But he did not have to work any. - -Mr. RANKIN. During the week when he was in Dallas and you were at -Irving, did he call you from time to time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Daily, twice. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he leave his telephone number in Dallas with you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -I don't have it, it was in Paine's notebook. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he speak to you in Russian when he called you on the -telephone? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Sometimes he would try to speak in English when -someone was listening, and he didn't want them to know he spoke -Russian--then he would try to speak in English. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever speak in Spanish when he was talking to you -from Dallas? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. He doesn't speak Spanish. I don't either. His landlady -heard him say "Adios" and she decided that he spoke Spanish, because -she didn't understand that he had spoken Russian all that time. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a special celebration for your husband's -birthday? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. When was that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. On October 18th. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who was there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Ruth and her children, I, Lee, and Paine's husband, -Michael. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did Wesley Frazier bring your husband home at that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Frazier is the last name? Wesley was that boy's name. I -now remember. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he bring him home that weekend? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. - -It seems to me, yes. It is hard to remember now which weekend was which. - -Mr. RANKIN. On these weekends, did you ever observe your husband going -to the garage, practicing with the rifle in any way? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you see him leave the house when he could have been -going to the garage and practicing with his rifle? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, he couldn't have practiced while we were at the -Paine's, because Ruth was there. But whenever she was not at home, -he tried to spend as much time as he could with me--he would watch -television in the house. But he did go to the garage to look at our -things that were there. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you don't know when he went there what he might have -done with the rifle? Is that what you mean? - -Mrs. OSWALD. At least I didn't notice anything. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, you have described your husband's---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. I think that it takes considerable time to -practice with a rifle. He never spent any great deal of time in the -garage. - -Mr. RANKIN. You have described your husband's practicing on the back -porch at New Orleans with the telescopic scope and the rifle, saying he -did that very regularly there. - -Did you ever see him working the bolt, that action that opens the -rifle, where you can put a shell in and push it back--during those -times? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I did not see it, because it was dark, and I would be in -the room at that time. - -But I did hear the noise from it from time to time--not often. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the weekend that you went to the hospital for -your baby? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Very well. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband go with you at that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. Ruth drove me at that time. He remained with June -because June was crying and we could not leave her with strangers. He -wanted to go with me, but we couldn't arrange it any other way. - -Mr. RANKIN. After the baby was born, did he come and see you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything to you about the baby? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Every father talks a lot. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he talk about the baby? - -Mrs. OSWALD. About me and the child--he was very happy. He even had -tears in his eyes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he call you from Irving when you were in the hospital? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, he was working at that time, and he called me from -work. But I didn't talk to him. He merely asked the nurse how I was -doing. - -Mr. RANKIN. And those conversations would be reported to you by the -nurse, then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, she didn't tell me about them. Because he telephoned -to find out when I should be brought home, and he telephoned Ruth and -asked her to let him know. But the nurse did tell me that my husband -had called. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, the weekend of October 25th to the 27th, did your -husband return to Irving that weekend? - -Mrs. OSWALD. There were some weekends when he did not come. But this -was at my request. It happened twice, I think. One such weekend was the -occasion of the birthday of Mrs. Paine's daughter. And I knew that Lee -didn't like Michael, Mrs. Paine's husband, and I asked him not to come. - -This was one occasion. - -The other I don't recall. I don't recall the date of this. But I -remember that the weekend before he shot at the President, he did not -come on Saturday and Sunday. Because we had a quarrel--that incident -with the fictitious name. - -No, I am confused. - -It would be easier for me to remember if I knew the birthday of that -girl. Perhaps you know. Perhaps you have it noted down somewhere. - -Mr. RANKIN. You are asking me the birthday of Mrs. Paine's daughter? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Because I know that the FBI questioned me about it, and -they had made a note about it. Because they wanted to determine each -time when he did come and when did not. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, if it was the weekend of November 16th and 17th that -he remained in Dallas, would that help you as to the time of the -birthday? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. This was the weekend before the 21st, and he had not -come home that weekend. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, the neighbor next door that you referred to, where you -learned about the job with the depository, could that have been Dorothy -Roberts? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that your husband went to some meeting with -Michael Paine in October of 1963? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -It seems to me--I know for sure that this was one of the Fridays. It -seems to me that this was the birthday--it was after dinner. They -talked in English. I don't know about what. I know that they got -together and went to some kind of a meeting. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was that a meeting of the American Civil Liberties Union? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Ruth said something about that, but I didn't understand -anything. This was right after the incident with Stevenson, who was hit. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was that in the weekend of October 25th? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, probably. This was not Lee's birthday. It was the -week after that, the following Friday. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, on October 26th, Saturday, was your husband with you -all day? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. All day. Whenever he came, he never went anywhere -else. - -Mr. RANKIN. We had some information that a telescopic sight was fitted -to a gun for your husband on that date, and that is why I am asking you -if there was any time that he could have left to have that done. - -Mrs. OSWALD. How is it about the telescope? He always had the -telescope. Were there two? - -Mr. RANKIN. We are trying to find out. - -Someone says that they mounted a sight. - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is not the truth, if they say that. Simply people -talking. Perhaps someone who looked like Lee. - -Mr. RANKIN. Someone may be mistaken and thought that he had mounted a -telescopic sight when he did it for someone else. And that is why we -want to check with you. - -When your husband went back to work on Monday, October 28th, did he -drive with Wesley Frazier at that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It seems--it seems that he had overslept and that someone -else had picked him up. But, no--no, I remember that he did not come -to get him, but Lee met him near his house. Lee told me that. Or his -sister. I don't remember. Lee told me about it. But I have forgotten. - -Mr. RANKIN. But he did not go in by bus that day? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. He said his sister drove him to the bus. I only know -that this boy did not come to get him that day. - -Mr. RANKIN. As far as you know, he may have gone all the way into -Dallas in a car, or he may have gone in a bus? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps he hadn't told him to pick him up on that day. I -don't know. I only know the fact that the boy did not pick him up on -that day. - -Mr. RANKIN. We have reports of FBI interviews the last part of October, -that is October 29, and also November 1, and November 5. We would like -to ask you about them, since some of them may have been with Mrs. Paine -in your presence or with you. - -Do you recall one on October 29th? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember the interview. Ruth interpreted--she -talked to them. - -Mr. RANKIN. In order that the Commission will understand, whenever the -FBI would try to ask you any questions, Mrs. Paine would interpret for -you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And would she at the same time answer things in English, -too, herself? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. So, in effect, the FBI was---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me--she loves to talk. - -Mr. RANKIN. The FBI was interviewing both of you at the same time, to -some extent, is that right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. They asked her about Lee, as far as I know. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that you did have such an interview at Mrs. -Paine's house when she acted as interpreter on November 1, 1963? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were you present on November 5, 1963, when FBI agents Hosty -and Wilson interviewed Mrs. Paine at her home? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I was in my room at that time busy with little Rachel, and -I heard voices which I thought were voices of the FBI. I came out of -the room and they were in a hurry to leave. They did not talk to me at -that time, other than just a greeting. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not they had been talking to Mrs. -Paine about you or your husband? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. She told me about it, but I was not especially -interested. She does not interpret quite exactly. She is hard to -understand. But she told me that in general terms. - -Mr. RANKIN. You have told us about the fact that you got the telephone -number of the FBI agent and gave it to your husband. Was that the -November 1 interview when that happened? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. I will hand you Exhibit 18, and ask you if you can identify -that for us, and tell us what it is. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Lee's notebook. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is your handwriting in that Exhibit 18? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It must be, yes, I will find mine. There are many -different handwritings in here. Different people have written in this -notebook. Sometimes Russian friends in Russia would note their address -in this notebook. - -This is mine. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us--is it a long notation by you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. That is my aunt's address when Lee would remain in -Minsk while I went on vacation. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is much of that notebook, Exhibit 18, in your husband's -handwriting? - -Mrs. OSWALD. The majority, mostly. - -Mr. RANKIN. Except for the page with your handwriting on it and the -notations of other friends that you referred to, is it generally in -your husband's handwriting? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I can tell exactly which is noted down by Lee and which is -noted down by others. - -Mr. RANKIN. And it is a regular notebook that he kept for all types of -notes? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is from Russia. - -Mr. RANKIN. He started it in Russia? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And there are a number of notations that were made after -you returned to this country, is that right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 18. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted with that number. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 18, and -received in evidence.) - -Mrs. OSWALD. There is a Russian term for "wedding ring" noted in there. -Before we were married I wrote that down for him, because he didn't -know the Russian expression for it. I didn't tell him. He looked it up -in the dictionary himself and translated it. - -Mr. RANKIN. I would like to hand this back to you and call your -attention to the page of Exhibit 18 where the little white slip is. - -I ask you if you recognize the handwriting there, where it refers to -Agent Hosty. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Lee wrote that. And this is the license number. - -Mr. RANKIN. And the telephone number? - -The license number, the name, and the telephone number are all in your -husband's---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. The date when he visited him, FBI agent, telephone, name, -license number, and probably the address. - -Mr. RANKIN. Are all in your husband's handwriting? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know when they were entered in that notebook, -Exhibit 18? - -Mrs. OSWALD. After the first visit. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you note the notation "November 1" on that page? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. You think that is about the date of the first visit, then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, did you report to your husband the fact of this visit, -November 1, with the FBI agent? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't report it to him at once, but as soon as he came -for a weekend, I told him about it. - -By the way, on that day he was due to arrive. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is on November 1? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Lee comes off work at 5:30--comes from work at 5:30. -They left at 5 o'clock, and we told them if they wanted to they could -wait and Lee would be here soon. But they didn't want to wait. - -Mr. RANKIN. And by "they" who do you mean? Do you recall the name of -the other man beside Agent Hosty? - -Mrs. OSWALD. There was only one man during the first visit. I don't -remember his name. This was probably the date because there is his name -and the date. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, what did you tell your husband about this visit by the -FBI agent and the interview? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I told him that they had come, that they were interested -in where he was working and where he lived, and he was, again, upset. - -He said that he would telephone them--I don't know whether he called or -not--or that he would visit them. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is that all you told him at that time about the interview? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. I told him about the content of the interview, but now -I don't remember. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember anything else that happened in the -interview that you could tell the Commission at this time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I told you that I had told them that I didn't want them -to visit us, because we wanted to live peacefully, and that this was -disturbing to us. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was there anything else? - -Mrs. OSWALD. There was more, but I don't remember now. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, during this period of time---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. He said that he knew that Lee had been engaged -in passing out leaflets for the Committee for Cuba, and he asked -whether Lee was doing that here. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you answer that question? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you say? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I said that Lee does not engage in such activities here. -This was not like an interview. It was simply a conversation. We talked -about even some trifles that had no relationship to politics. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not your husband had any interviews -or conversations with the FBI during this period? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I know of two visits to the home of Ruth Paine, and I saw -them each time. But I don't know of any interviews with Lee. Lee had -told me that supposedly he had visited their office or their building. -But I didn't believe him. I thought that he was a brave rabbit. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband continue to call you daily from Dallas -after he got his job? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you what he was doing? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Usually he would call me during the lunch break, and the -second time after he was finished work, and he told me that he was -reading, that he was watching television, and sometimes I told him that -he should not stay in his room too much, that he should go for a walk -in the park. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did he say in answer to that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Or I would tell him to go out and eat, and he said that -he would listen to me. I don't know to what extent he fulfilled my -requests. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband come back from Dallas on November 8th? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he came back on Saturday of that week? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I remember that there was one weekend when he didn't come -on a Friday, but said that he would come on a Saturday. And he said -that that was because he wanted to visit another place--supposedly -there was another job open, more interesting work. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he say where this other job was that he thought was -more interesting? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He said that this was also based upon an ad in a -newspaper, and that it was connected--that it was related to -photography. And he went there in the morning and then--on a -Saturday--and then came to us, still during the morning. - -Mr. RANKIN. He came home, then, on Saturday, some time before noon of -that day? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, before noon. - -It seems to me that there was a holiday on that day, on the -8th--elections--were there elections on that day? - -Mr. RANKIN. Are you thinking of November 11th, Veterans Day? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I remember that day exactly. We didn't go anywhere on that -Saturday. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you and your husband buy groceries in Irving some place? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Not always. Sometimes we would go together with Ruth and -buy a few things. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember the Hutch's Supermarket, owned by Mr. -Hutchison? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever shop there with your husband? - -Mrs. OSWALD. We never went just Lee and I. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did the three of you--Mrs. Paine and you and your husband -go together to shop? - -Mrs. OSWALD. And her children. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband try to cash checks at the Hutch's market? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He may have tried to cash checks sometimes when he -received unemployment compensation. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that he tried to cash a check of $189 at this -market? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't have such a check. - -Mr. RANKIN. As far as you know, he didn't try to cash a check of that -size at this market? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember this market. I do remember one time when -Lee wanted to cash a check, but it was $33. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is that the only time that you recall he tried to cash a -check? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Are you speaking of a store in Dallas or in Irving? - -Mr. RANKIN. It is in Irving. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Then I understand it. Because in Dallas I could not have -been with him. - -The CHAIRMAN. The hour of adjournment has arrived. So we will adjourn -now until tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock. - -(Whereupon, at 4:30 p.m., the President's Commission adjourned.) - - - - -_Wednesday, February 5, 1964_ - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED - -The President's Commission met at 10 a.m., on February 5, 1964, at 200 -Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. - -Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator Richard -B. Russell, Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, -Representative Gerald R. Ford, Allen W. Dulles, members. - -Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Norman Redlich, -assistant counsel; Leon I. Gopadze and William D. Krimer, interpreters; -John M. Thorne, attorney for Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald; and Ruben Efron. - - -The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. We will continue with -the examination. Mr. Rankin, you may proceed. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, have you become familiar with the English -language to some extent? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I have never studied it, but simple language I do -understand. - -Mr. RANKIN. We had reports that you made some study at the Southern -Methodist University. Is there anything to that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. How about Mr. Gregory? Did you study English with him? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any formal aid or teaching of English by -anyone? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I had no formal instructions in it, but a Russian -acquaintance, Mr. Bouhe, wrote down some Russian phrases, and I would -try to translate them into English. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, since you have been living with the Martins, I assume -you haven't had any Russian friends to try to translate English for -you, is that right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. If you do not count Mr. Gopadze and the FBI interpreter, I -have not been in contact with any Russians. - -Mr. RANKIN. And there were considerable periods during the time you -have been living with the Martins when neither Mr. Gopadze or the FBI -agent or translator were present, is that right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. So have you been able to learn a little more English while -you have been with the Martins than you had before, because of that -experience? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Only a little, I think. - -At least it is very useful for me to live with an American family who -do not speak Russian. - -Mr. RANKIN. That has helped you to learn some English, more than when -you were living with Mrs. Paine, who could speak Russian to you, I take -it. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Of course. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know any French? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. Other than Russian, I don't know any other language. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, when you were with the Martins the Secret Service -people were there, too, were they not? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, they helped me a great deal. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you object to the Secret Service people being there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did they treat you properly? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Excellently--very well. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you object to their being around and looking out for -you as they did? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did the Martins treat you during the time you have been -with them? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Better than I--could have been expected. - -Mr. RANKIN. Have you been pleased with the way they have treated you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I am very pleased and I am very grateful to them. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, Mr. Thorne is your attorney. I understand that he -told the Civil Liberties Union people of Dallas it was all right for -the Secret Service people to be there with you and that you liked -that arrangement and did not want to be interfered with. Was that -satisfactory to you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is correct. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was he speaking for you when he said that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, because I received a letter from Mr. Olds, a leader -of that union. In that letter he said that he sympathizes with my -situation, that he supposed that the Secret Service treated me very -badly and stopped me from doing something. - -I answered him in a letter written in Russian which was later -translated into English that all of this was not the truth. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you feel any restraint or that you were being forced -to do anything there while you were at the Martins that was not -satisfactory to you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I was not forced to do anything that I did not want to. - -Mr. RANKIN. Anybody that tried to see you that you wanted to see during -that time or from that time up to the present--I withdraw that. - -Was anyone who you wished to see or wanted to see you that you were -willing to see kept from seeing you at that time or up to the present? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Generally some people wanted to talk to me but they -couldn't do so simply because I did not want to. - -Mr. RANKIN. And was that always the case, whenever you didn't talk to -someone during that period of time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Everything depended only on me. - -Mr. RANKIN. And whenever you did want to talk to someone or see -someone, you were always able to do that, were you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I did meet with Katya Ford, my former Russian friend. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you were always able to meet with anyone that you -wanted to, is that right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, it has been claimed that Mrs. Ruth Paine tried to see -you at various times and was unable to do so. Can you tell us about -that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. She is trying very hard to come to see me, but I have no -desire to meet with her. I think that she is trying to do that for -herself, rather than for me. - -Mr. RANKIN. And whenever you have refused to see her when she tries to -see you, that is because you didn't want to see her yourself, is that -right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. What about the newspaper and television and radio people? -Have some of those tried to see you while you were at the Martins? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, they have tried. - -Mr. RANKIN. And have you done anything about their efforts to see you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I never wanted to be popular in such a bad sense in which -I am now, and therefore I didn't want to see them. But I did have a -television interview in which I said that I am relatively satisfied -with my situation, that I am not too worried and I thanked people for -their attention towards me. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe to us your relationship with your -mother-in-law now? - -Mrs. OSWALD. After all of this happened I met with her at the police -station. I was, of course, very sorry for her as Lee's mother. I was -always sorry for her because Lee did not want to live with her. - -I understood her motherly concern. But in view of the fact of -everything that happened later, her appearances in the radio, in the -press, I do not think that she is a very sound thinking woman, and I -think that part of the guilt is hers. I do not accuse her, but I think -that part of the guilt in connection with what happened with Lee lies -with her because he did not perhaps receive the education he should -have during his childhood, and he did not have any correct leadership -on her part, guidance. If she were in contact with my children now, I -do not want her to cripple them. - -Mr. RANKIN. Has she tried to see you since the assassination? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, all the time. - -Mr. RANKIN. And have you seen her since that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Accidentally we met at the cemetery on a Sunday when I -visited there, but I didn't want to meet with her, and I left. She -didn't understand that I didn't want to meet with her and she accused -the Secret Service personnel of preventing her from seeing me. - -Mr. RANKIN. Except for the time at the jail and at the cemetery, have -you seen her since the assassination? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. At the time you did see your mother-in-law, did you observe -any difference in her attitude towards you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe that difference that you observed? - -Mrs. OSWALD. At first I said that I didn't see her any more. But after -Lee was in jail I lived with her for some time at that inn. - -Mr. RANKIN. The Six Flags? - -Mrs. OSWALD. The Six Flags. And inasmuch as I lived with her and met -with her every day I could see--I was able to see the change. At least -if her relationship with me was good, it was not sincere. I think that -she does not like me. I don't think that she simply is able to like me. - -There were some violent scenes, she didn't want to listen to anyone, -there were hysterics. Everyone was guilty of everything and no one -understood her. - -Perhaps my opinion is wrong, but at least I do not want to live with -her and to listen to scandals every day. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did she say anything to indicate that she blamed you in -connection with the assassination? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, she did not accuse me of anything. - -Mr. RANKIN. In your presence, at any time, did she accuse Ruth Paine of -being involved in causing the assassination or being directly involved? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, she never accused Ruth Paine. She simply did not like -her. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did she tell you why she didn't like Ruth Paine? - -Mrs. OSWALD. She told me but I didn't understand it because it was in -English. She expresses more by rather stormy mimicry, thinking that -that would get across and I would understand. - -Mr. RANKIN. You said that you didn't want to see Ruth Paine because you -thought she wanted to see you for her own interests. Will you tell us -what you meant by that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think that she wants to see me in her own selfish -interests. She likes to be well known, popular, and I think that -anything that I should write her, for example, would wind up in the -press. - -The reason that I think so is that the first time that we were in jail -to see Lee, she was with me and with her children, and she was trying -to get in front of the cameras, and to push her children and instructed -her children to look this way and look that way. And the first -photographs that appeared were of me with her children. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that in the note your husband left about the -Walker incident, that there was a reference to the Red Cross, and that -you might get help there? Did you ever obtain any help from the Red -Cross before that date? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, never. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know any reason why your husband put that in the -note? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, because the Red Cross is an organization in all -countries which helps people who need help, and in case I needed help, -since I have no relatives here, I would be able to obtain it from this -organization. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not your husband received any help -from the Red Cross in money payments while he was in Russia? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't. - -Mr. RANKIN. In that note you remember that there was a reference to an -embassy--it didn't say which embassy. Do you know what embassy your -husband was referring to? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He had in mind the Soviet Embassy. - -Mr. RANKIN. You told about the incident of De Mohrenschildt coming to -the house and saying something about how your husband happened to miss, -and your husband looked at you and looked at him, and seemed to think -that you might have told. You have described that. - -Now, did you have any cause to believe at that time that De -Mohrenschildt knew anything about the Walker incident? - -Mrs. OSWALD. De Mohrenschildt didn't know anything about it. Simply he -thought that this was something that Lee was likely to do. He simply -made a joke and the joke happened to hit the target. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you conclude that from what you knew about the situation -or from something that De Mohrenschildt said at some time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I know this, myself. I know that Lee could not have -told him. And, otherwise, how would he have known? - -Mr. RANKIN. From your knowledge, were they close enough so that your -husband would have made De Mohrenschildt a confidant about anything -like that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No matter how close Lee might be to anyone, he would not -have confided such things. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the money that your husband borrowed from the -Embassy in Moscow to come to this country? Do you know where he got the -money to repay that amount? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He worked and we paid out the debt. For six or seven -months we were paying off this debt. - -Mr. RANKIN. Some of the payments were rather large during that period. -Do you remember that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. And no one will believe it--it may appear strange. -But we lived very modestly. Perhaps for you it is hard to imagine how -we existed. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you handle the finances---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. Of course we were economizing. - -No, Lee always handled the money, but I bought groceries. He gave me -money and I bought groceries, or more correctly, together. - -Mr. RANKIN. You would usually go to the grocery store together to buy -what you needed? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And then did he give you any funds separately from that, -for you to spend alone? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he would give it to me, but I would not take it. - -Mr. RANKIN. How much were those amounts? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me, I want to add something. - -You asked me yesterday to make a list of how much we spent during a -month--I forgot. Excuse me--I will do it today. - -For example, when we paid $60 to $65 rent per month, we would spend -only about $15 per week for groceries. As you see, I didn't die and I -am not sick. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you buy clothing for yourself? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Not everything. At first some of our Russian friends would -occasionally give us some clothes. But Lee would also buy clothes for -me. But in America this is no problem. - -Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. In my opinion life is not very expensive here. Everyone -buys according to his financial status, and no one walks around -undressed. You can buy for $20 and at a sale you might buy for $2, -clothes for an entire season. - -Mr. RANKIN. What about clothing for your child? Did you handle the -buying of that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Returning to the---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. Some of the things for children were given to -us by friends who had children. But I didn't like them and I bought -some. - -Mr. RANKIN. Returning to the date of November 11, 1963, did you recall -that that was a holiday? - -Mrs. OSWALD. November 11? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember that it was a holiday. We did not -celebrate it. But something, I remember, was closed. Perhaps there were -elections. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is Veterans Day in this country, and it was a -Monday--refreshing your memory in that regard. - -Do you recall whether or not your husband went to work that day? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. I remember that he remained at the Paine's. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what he did during that day? - -Mrs. OSWALD. As always, he played with June and he helped me a little -with preparation of lunch, and he sat around, watched television. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was he doing any reading at that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't read. It seems to me that on that day he was -typing. I don't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you don't know what he was typing? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me it was the envelope---- - -Mr. RANKIN. Which you have identified? - -Mrs. OSWALD. You remember you had a letter which mentioned Mexico and -Kostin, it was that envelope. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is this Exhibit 16 that you are referring to? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. You see the date is the 12th. You see, I can't -remember a specific date, but some event I can connect with it brings -it back. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember whether your husband returned from Dallas -to Irving at any time during that week? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It seems he came on Saturday or Friday for the weekend. - -Perhaps he didn't come. I am mixed up as to which weekends he did and -didn't come. - -Mr. RANKIN. We have a statement from a Mr. Hutchison of the supermarket -that I referred to yesterday that you and your husband were in his -supermarket on November 13. Do you recall anything like that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. If the 12th was a Monday and the 13th a Tuesday, Lee was -at work. He couldn't have been there. - -Mr. RANKIN. In one of your statements that you have given the FBI -and the Secret Service you indicated that this particular weekend -your husband stayed in Dallas--that is the 15th through the 17th of -November. Does that refresh your memory? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--the 15th to the 17th he remained in Dallas. That is, -he didn't come that weekend. - -But on the 13th he was not in Irving. - -Mr. RANKIN. That would be the weekend before the assassination, to -refresh your memory again. - -Mrs. OSWALD. You see, this is why I was not surprised that he didn't -come--that he came, rather, he had not come on Friday and Saturday, and -on Sunday I called him over the telephone and this is when he had a -quarrel over the fictitious name. - -By the way, he didn't come because I told him not to come. He had -wanted to come, he had telephoned. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you tell him about not coming? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That he shouldn't come every week, that perhaps it is not -convenient for Ruth that the whole family be there, live there. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He said, "As you wish. If you don't want me to come, I -won't." - -Mr. RANKIN. Were you quite angry with him about the use of the -fictitious name? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. And when he called me over the phone a second time I -hung up and would not talk to him. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell him why you were so angry? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you say? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I said, "After all, when will all your foolishness come to -an end? All of these comedies. First one thing then another. And now -this fictitious name." - -I didn't understand why. After all, it was nothing terrible if people -were to find out that he had been in Russia. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did he say when you said that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That I didn't understand anything. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember an incident when he said you were a -Czechoslovakian rather than a Russian? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. We lived on Elsbeth Street, and he had told the -landlady that I was from Czechoslovakia. But I didn't know about it, -and when the landlady asked me, I told her I was from Russia. I told -Lee about it that evening, and he scolded me for having said that. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to him then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That the landlady was very nice and she was very good to -me and she was even pleased with the fact that I was from Russia. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you object to your husband saying that you were from -some country other than Russia? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Of course. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to him about that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I am not ashamed of the fact that I am from Russia. I can -even be proud of the fact that I am Russian. And there is no need for -me to hide it. Every person should be proud of his nationality and not -be afraid or ashamed of it. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did he say in response to that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing. - -Mr. RANKIN. When he gave the fictitious name, did he use the name -Hidell? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Where? - -Mr. RANKIN. When you called him that time. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Where? - -Mr. RANKIN. On the weekend, when you called him, you said there was a -fictitious name given. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what name he had given. He said that he was -under a fictitious name, but he didn't tell me which. - -Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever heard that he used the fictitious name Hidell? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. When did you first learn that he used such a name? - -Mrs. OSWALD. In New Orleans. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did you learn that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. When he was interviewed by some anti-Cubans, he used -this name and spoke of an organization. I knew there was no such -organization. And I know that Hidell is merely an altered Fidel, and I -laughed at such foolishness. My imagination didn't work that way. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to him about it at that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I said that it wasn't a nice thing to do and some day it -would be discovered anyhow. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, the weekend of November 15th to 17th, which was the -weekend before the assassination, do you know what your husband did or -how he spent that weekend while he was in Dallas? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he took the rifle before he went into -Dallas, that trip, for that weekend? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. I think that he took the rifle on Thursday -when he came the next time, but I didn't see him take it. I assume -that. I cannot know it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Except for the time in New Orleans that you described, and -the time you called to Dallas to ask for your husband, do you know of -any other time your husband was using an assumed name? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, no more. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you think he was using that assumed name in connection -with this Fair Play for Cuba activity or something else? - -Mrs. OSWALD. The name Hidell, which you pronounced Hidell, was in -connection with his activity with the non-existing organization. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you and your husband live under the name Hidell in New -Orleans? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. You were never identified as the Hidells, as far as you -knew, while you were there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. No one knew that Lee was Hidell. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did you discover it, then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I already said that when I listened to the radio, they -spoke of that name, and I asked him who, and he said that it was he. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was that after the arrest? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember when the interview took place, before the -arrest or after. - -Mr. RANKIN. But it was in regard to some interview for radio -transmission, and he had identified himself as Hidell, rather than -Oswald, is that right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No--he represented himself as Oswald, but he said that the -organization which he supposedly represents is headed by Hidell. - -Mr. RANKIN. He was using the name Hidell, then, to have a fictitious -president or head of the organization which really was he himself, is -that right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. You have told us about his practicing with the rifle, the -telescopic lens, on the back porch at New Orleans, and also his using -the bolt action that you heard from time to time. - -Will you describe that a little more fully to us, as best you remember? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I cannot describe that in greater detail. I can only say -that Lee would sit there with the rifle and open and close the bolt and -clean it. No, he didn't clean it at that time. - -Yes--twice he did clean it. - -Mr. RANKIN. And did he seem to be practicing with the telescopic lens, -too, and sighting the gun on different objects? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. The rifle was always with this. I don't know -exactly how he practiced, because I was in the house, I was busy. I -just knew that he sits there with his rifle. I was not interested in it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was this during the light of the day or during the darkness? - -Mrs. OSWALD. During darkness. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was it so dark that neighbors could not see him on the -porch there with the gun? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, during the week of the assassination, did your husband -call you at all by telephone? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He telephoned me on Monday, after I had called him on -Sunday, and he was not there. - -Or, rather, he was there, but he wasn't called to the phone because he -was known by another name. - -On Monday he called several times, but after I hung up on him and -didn't want to talk to him he did not call again. He then arrived on -Thursday. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you he was coming Thursday? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn that he was using the assumed name of Lee as -his last name? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I know it now, but I did not ever know it before. - -Mr. RANKIN. Thursday was the 21st. Do you recall that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And the assassination was on the 22d. - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is very hard to forget. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband give any reason for coming home on -Thursday? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he was lonely because he hadn't come the -preceding weekend, and he wanted to make his peace with me. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to him then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He tried to talk to me but I would not answer him, and he -was very upset. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were you upset with him? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I was angry, of course. He was not angry--he was upset. -I was angry. He tried very hard to please me. He spent quite a bit of -time putting away diapers and played with the children on the street. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did you indicate to him that you were angry with him? - -Mrs. OSWALD. By not talking to him. - -Mr. RANKIN. And how did he show that he was upset? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He was upset over the fact that I would not answer him. He -tried to start a conversation with me several times, but I would not -answer. And he said that he didn't want me to be angry at him because -this upsets him. - -On that day, he suggested that we rent an apartment in Dallas. He said -that he was tired of living alone and perhaps the reason for my being -so angry was the fact that we were not living together. That if I want -to he would rent an apartment in Dallas tomorrow--that he didn't want -me to remain with Ruth any longer, but wanted me to live with him in -Dallas. - -He repeated this not once but several times, but I refused. And he said -that once again I was preferring my friends to him, and that I didn't -need him. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I said it would be better if I remained with Ruth until -the holidays, he would come, and we would all meet together. That this -was better because while he was living alone and I stayed with Ruth, we -were spending less money. And I told him to buy me a washing machine, -because two children it became too difficult to wash by hand. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did he say to that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He said he would buy me a washing machine. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you. That it would be better if he bought something -for himself--that I would manage. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did this seem to make him more upset, when you suggested -that he wait about getting an apartment for you to live in? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He then stopped talking and sat down and watched -television and then went to bed. I went to bed later. It was about 9 -o'clock when he went to sleep. I went to sleep about 11:30. But it -seemed to me that he was not really asleep. But I didn't talk to him. - -In the morning he got up, said goodbye, and left, and that I shouldn't -get up--as always, I did not get up to prepare breakfast. This was -quite usual. - -And then after I fed Rachel, I took a look to see whether Lee was -here, but he had already gone. This was already after the police had -come. Ruth told me that in the evening she had worked in the garage -and she knows that she had put out the light but that the light was on -later--that the light was on in the morning. And she guessed that Lee -was in the garage. - -But I didn't see it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did she tell you when she thought your husband had been in -the garage, what time of the day? - -Mrs. OSWALD. She thought that it was during the evening, because the -light remained on until morning. - -Mr. RANKIN. Why did you stay awake until 11:30? Were you still angry -with him? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, not for that reason, but because I had to wash dishes -and be otherwise busy with the household--take a bath. - -Mr. RANKIN. This is a good place for a recess, Mr. Chairman. - -The CHAIRMAN. All right. We can take a recess now. - -We will recess now for 10 minutes. - -(Brief recess.) - -The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. - -Mr. Rankin? - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, why did the use of this false name by your -husband make you so angry? Would you explain that a little bit? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It would be unpleasant and incomprehensible to any wife if -her husband used a fictitious name. And then, of course, I thought that -if he would see that I don't like it and that I explained to him that -this is not the smart thing to do, that he would stop doing it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you feel that you were becoming more impatient with all -of these things that your husband was doing, the Fair Play for Cuba and -the Walker incident, and then this fictitious name business? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course. I was tired of it. - -Every day I was waiting for some kind of a new surprise. I couldn't -wait to find out what else would he think of. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss that with your husband at all? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you say about that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I said that no one needed anything like that, that for no -reason at all he was thinking that he was not like other people, that -he was more important. - -Mr. RANKIN. And what did he say? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He would seem to agree, but then would continue again in -two or three days. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you sense that he was not intending to carry out his -agreement with you to not have another Walker incident or anything like -that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I generally didn't think that Lee would repeat anything -like that. Generally, I knew that the rifle was very tempting for him. -But I didn't believe that he would repeat it. It was hard to believe. - -Mr. RANKIN. I wasn't clear about when Mrs. Paine thought that your -husband might have been in the garage and had the light on. Can you -give us any help on the time of day that she had in mind? - -Mrs. OSWALD. In the morning she thought about it. But she didn't attach -any significance to it at that time. It was only after the police had -come that this became more significant for her. - -Mr. RANKIN. So she thought it was in the morning after he got up from -his night's rest that he might have gone to the garage, turned on the -light? - -Mrs. OSWALD. In my opinion, she thought that it was at night, or during -the evening that he had been in the garage and turned on the light. At -least that is what she said to me. I don't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did she indicate whether she thought it was before he went -to bed at 9 o'clock? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. At first it seems it wasn't nine, it was -perhaps ten o'clock when Lee went to bed. And first, Ruth went to her -room and then Lee went. He was there after her. - -Mr. RANKIN. So he might have been in the garage sometime between 9 and -10? Was that what you thought? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. But I think that he might have even been there in the -morning and turned on the light. - -Mr. RANKIN. On this evening when you were angry with him, had he come -home with the young Mr. Frazier that day? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. When was the last time that you had noticed the rifle -before that day? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I said that I saw--for the first and last time I saw the -rifle about a week after I had come to Mrs. Paine. - -But, as I said, the rifle was wrapped in a blanket, and I was sure when -the police had come that the rifle was still in the blanket, because it -was all rolled together. And, therefore, when they took the blanket and -the rifle was not in it, I was very much surprised. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see the rifle in a paper cover? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Could you describe for the Commission the place in the -garage where the rifle was located? - -Mrs. OSWALD. When you enter the garage from the street it was in the -front part, the left. - -Mr. RANKIN. By the left you mean left of the door? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It is an overhead door and the rifle was to the left, on -the floor. - -It was always in the same place. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was there anything else close to the rifle that you recall? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Next to it there were some--next to the rifle there were -some suitcases and Ruth had some paper barrels in the garage where the -kids used to play. - -Mr. RANKIN. The way the rifle was wrapped with a blanket, could you -tell whether or not the rifle had been removed and the blanket just -left there at any time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It always had the appearance of having something inside -of it. But I only looked at it really once, and I was always sure the -rifle was in it. Therefore, it is very hard to determine when the rifle -was taken. I only assumed that it was on Thursday, because Lee had -arrived so unexpectedly for some reason. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you believe that the reason for his coming out to see -you Thursday was to make up? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think there were two reasons. One was to make up with -me, and the other to take the rifle. This is--this, of course, is not -irreconcilable. - -Mr. RANKIN. But you think he came to take the rifle because of what you -learned since. Is that it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course. - -Mr. RANKIN. Before this incident about the fictitious name, were you -and your husband getting along quite well? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he seem to like his job at the depository? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, because it was not dirty work. - -Mr. RANKIN. Had he talked about getting any other job? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. When he went to answer some ads, he preferred to get -some work connected with photography rather than this work. He liked -this work relatively speaking--he liked it. But, of course, he wanted -to get something better. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you like the photographic work? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. It was interesting for him. When he would see his -work in the newspaper he would always point it out. - -Mr. RANKIN. He had a reference in his notebook to the word "Microdot". -Do you know what he meant by that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did your husband get along with Mrs. Paine? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He was polite to her, as an acquaintance would be, but he -didn't like her. He told me that he detested her--a tall and stupid -woman. She is, of course, not too smart, but most people aren't. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever say anything to indicate he thought Mrs. Paine -was coming between him and you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did Mrs. Paine say anything about your husband? - -Mrs. OSWALD. She didn't say anything bad. I don't know what she -thought. But she didn't say anything bad. - -Perhaps she didn't like something about him, but she didn't tell me. -She didn't want to hurt me by saying anything. - -Mr. RANKIN. I have understood from your testimony that you did not -really care to go to Russia but your husband was the one that was -urging that, and that is why you requested the visa, is that correct? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And later he talked about not only you and your child -going, but also his going with you, is that right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what caused him to make that change? - -Mrs. OSWALD. At one time--I don't remember whether he was working at -that time or not--he was very sad and upset. He was sitting and writing -something in his notebook. I asked him what he was writing and he said, -"It would be better if I go with you." - -Then he went into the kitchen and he sat there in the dark, and when I -came in I saw that he was crying. I didn't know why. But, of course, -when a man is crying it is not a very pleasant thing, and I didn't -start to question him about why. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he say to you that he didn't want you to leave him -alone? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you at that time say anything to him about your all -staying in this country and getting along together? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I told him, of course, that it would be better for us to -stay here. But if it was very difficult for him and if he was always -worried about tomorrow, then perhaps it would be better if we went. - -Mr. RANKIN. On the evening of the 21st, was anything said about curtain -rods or his taking curtain rods to town the following day? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I didn't have any. - -Mr. RANKIN. He didn't say anything like that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss the weekend that was coming up? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he probably would not come on Friday, and he -didn't come--he was in jail. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did the quarrel that you had at that time seem to cause him -to be more disturbed than usual? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, not particularly. At least he didn't talk about that -quarrel when he came. Usually he would remember about what happened. -This time he didn't blame me for anything, didn't ask me any questions, -just wanted to make up. - -Mr. RANKIN. I understood that when you didn't make up he was quite -disturbed and you were still angry, is that right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I wasn't really very angry. I, of course, wanted to make -up with him. But I gave the appearance of being very angry. I was -smiling inside, but I had a serious expression on my face. - -Mr. RANKIN. And as a result of that, did he seem to be more disturbed -than usual? - -Mrs. OSWALD. As always, as usual. Perhaps a little more. At least when -he went to bed he was very upset. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you think that had anything to do with the assassination -the next day? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps he was thinking about all of that. I don't think -that he was asleep. Because, in the morning when the alarm clock went -off he hadn't woken up as usual before the alarm went off, and I -thought that he probably had fallen asleep very late. At least then I -didn't think about it. Now I think so. - -Mr. RANKIN. When he said he would not be home that Friday evening, did -you ask him why? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did he say? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He said that since he was home on Thursday, that it -wouldn't make any sense to come again on Friday, that he would come for -the weekend. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did that cause you to think that he had any special plans -to do anything? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you usually keep a wallet with money in it at the -Paines? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, in my room at Ruth Paine's there was a black wallet -in a wardrobe. Whenever Lee would come he would put money in there, but -I never counted it. - -Mr. RANKIN. On the evening of November 21st, do you know how much was -in the wallet? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. One detail that I remember was that he had asked me -whether I had bought some shoes for myself, and I said no, that I -hadn't had any time. He asked me whether June needed anything and told -me to buy everything that I needed for myself and for June--and for the -children. - -This was rather unusual for him, that he would mention that first. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he take the money from the wallet from time to time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, he generally kept the amount that he needed and put -the rest in the wallet. - -I know that the money that was found there, that you think this was -not Lee's money. But I know for sure that this was money that he had -earned. He had some money left after his trip to Mexico. Then we -received an unemployment compensation check for $33. And then Lee paid -only $7 or $8 for his room. And I know how he eats, very little. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what his ordinary lunch was? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Peanut butter sandwich, cheese sandwich, some lettuce, and -he would buy himself a hamburger, something else, a coke. - -Mr. RANKIN. And what about his evening meal? Do you know what he ate in -the evening meal? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Usually meat, vegetables, fruit, dessert. - -Mr. RANKIN. Where would he have that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He loved bananas. They were inexpensive. - -The place where he rented a room, he could not cook there. He said that -there was some sort of a cafe across the street and that he ate there. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever tell you what he paid for his evening meal? - -Mrs. OSWALD. About a dollar, $1.30. - -Mr. RANKIN. What about his breakfast? Do you know what he had for -breakfast ordinarily? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He never had breakfast. He just drank coffee and that is -all. - -Not because he was trying to economize. Simply he never liked to eat. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, will you note the presence of Mr. Ruben Efron -in the hearing room. He also knows Russian. - -On November 21, the day before the assassination that you were -describing, was there any discussion between you and your husband about -President Kennedy's trip or proposed trip to Texas, Dallas and the Fort -Worth area? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I asked Lee whether he knew where the President would -speak, and told him that I would very much like to hear him and to see -him. I asked him how this could be done. - -But he said he didn't know how to do that, and didn't enlarge any -further on that subject. - -Mr. RANKIN. Had there ever been---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. This was also somewhat unusual--his lack of desire to talk -about that subject any further. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you explain that to us? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think about it more now. - -At that time, I didn't pay any attention. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did you think it was unusual? Could you explain that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. The fact that he didn't talk a lot about it. He merely -gave me--said something as an answer, and did not have any further -comments. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you mean by that usually he would discuss a matter of -that kind and show considerable interest? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course, he would have told who would be there and -where this would take place. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything about his showing a lack of interest -at that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I merely shrugged my shoulders. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, prior to that time, had there been any discussion -between you concerning the proposed trip of President Kennedy to Texas? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. While you were in New Orleans, was there any discussion or -reference to President Kennedy's proposed trip to Texas? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband make any comments about President Kennedy -on that evening, of the 21st? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Had your husband at any time that you can recall said -anything against President Kennedy? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember any--ever having said that. I don't know. -He never told me that. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever say anything good about President Kennedy? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Usually he would translate magazine articles. They were -generally good. And he did not say that this contradicted his opinion. -I just remembered that he talked about Kennedy's father, who made his -fortune by a not very--in a not very good manner. Disposing of such -funds, of course, it was easier for his sons to obtain an education and -to obtain a government position, and it was easier to make a name for -themselves. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about President Kennedy's father making his -fortune? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he had speculated in wine. I don't know to -what extent that is true. - -Mr. RANKIN. When he read these articles to you, did he comment -favorably upon President Kennedy? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I have already said that he would translate articles which -were good, but he would not comment on them. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you recall---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. At least when I found out that Lee had shot at -the President, for me this was surprising. And I didn't believe it. -I didn't believe for a long time that Lee had done that. That he had -wanted to kill Kennedy--because perhaps Walker was there again, perhaps -he wanted to kill him. - -Mr. RANKIN. Why did you not believe this? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Because I had never heard anything bad about Kennedy from -Lee. And he never had anything against him. - -Mr. RANKIN. But you also say that he never said anything about him. - -Mrs. OSWALD. He read articles which were favorable. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he say he approved of those articles? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, he didn't say anything. Perhaps he did reach his own -conclusions reading these articles, but he didn't tell me about them. - -Mr. RANKIN. So apparently he didn't indicate any approval or -disapproval as far as he was concerned, of President Kennedy? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is correct. The President is the President. In -my opinion, he never wanted to overthrow him. At least he never showed -me that. He never indicated that he didn't want that President. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you observe that his acts on November 21st the evening -before the assassination, were anything like they were the evening -before the Walker incident? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Absolutely nothing in common. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything at all that would indicate he was -contemplating the assassination? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he discuss the television programs he saw that evening -with you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He was looking at TV by himself. I was busy in the -kitchen. At one time when we were--when I was together with him they -showed some sort of war films, from World War II. And he watched them -with interest. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall films that he saw called "Suddenly," and "We -were Strangers" that involved assassinations? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember the names of these films. If you would -remind me of the contents, perhaps I would know. - -Mr. RANKIN. Well, "Suddenly," was about the assassination of a -president, and the other was about the assassination of a Cuban -dictator. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Lee saw those films. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you that he had seen them? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I was with him when he watched them. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall about when this was with reference to the -date of the assassination? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It seems that this was before Rachel's birth. - -Mr. RANKIN. Weeks or months? Can you recall that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Several days. Some five days. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss the films after you had seen them with your -husband? - -Mrs. OSWALD. One film about the assassination of the president in Cuba, -which I had seen together with him, he said that this was a fictitious -situation, but that the content of the film was similar to the actual -situation which existed in Cuba, meaning the revolution in Cuba. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did either of you comment on either film being like the -attempt on Walker's life? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. I didn't watch the other film. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was anything said by your husband about how easy an -assassination could be committed like that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. I only know that he watched the film with interest, -but I didn't like it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall anything else he said about either of these -films? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing else. He didn't tell me anything else. He talked -to Ruth a few words. Perhaps she knows more. - -Mr. RANKIN. By Ruth, you mean Mrs. Paine? - -Mrs. OSWALD. They spoke in English. - -Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And did Mrs. Paine tell you what he said to her at that -time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall your husband saying at any time after he saw -the film about the Cuban assassination that this was the old-fashioned -way of assassination? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall anything being said by your husband at any -time about Governor Connally? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, while we were still in Russia, and Connally at that -time was Secretary of the Navy, Lee wrote him a letter in which he -asked Connally to help him obtain a good character reference because -at the end of his Army service he had a good characteristic--honorable -discharge--but that it had been changed after it became known he had -gone to Russia. - -Mr. RANKIN. Had it been changed to undesirable discharge, as you -understand it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Then we received a letter from Connally in which he -said that he had turned the matter over to the responsible authorities. -That was all in Russia. - -But here it seems he had written again to that organization with -a request to review. But he said from time to time that these are -bureaucrats, and he was dissatisfied. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know when he wrote again? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was that letter written from New Orleans? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. I only know about the fact, but when and -how, I don't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband say anything to you to indicate he had a -dislike for Governor Connally? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Here he didn't say anything. - -But while we were in Russia he spoke well of him. It seems to me that -Connally was running for Governor and Lee said that when he would -return to the United States he would vote for him. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is all that you remember that he said about Governor -Connally then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. With regard to the Walker incident, you said that your -husband seemed disturbed for several weeks. Did you notice anything of -that kind with regard to the day prior to the assassination? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. On November 22, the day of the assassination, you said your -husband got up and got his breakfast. Did you get up at all before he -left? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. I woke up before him, and I then went to the kitchen -to see whether he had had breakfast or not--whether he had already left -for work. But the coffee pot was cold and Lee was not there. - -And when I met Ruth that morning, I asked her whether Lee had had -coffee or not, and she said probably, perhaps he had made himself some -instant coffee. - -But probably he hadn't had any breakfast that morning. - -Mr. RANKIN. Then did he say anything to you that morning at all, or did -he get up and go without speaking to you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He told me to take as much money as I needed and to buy -everything, and said goodbye, and that is all. - -After the police had already come, I noticed that Lee had left his -wedding ring. - -Mr. RANKIN. You didn't observe that that morning when your husband had -left, did you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know approximately what time your husband left that -morning? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I have written it there, but I have now forgotten whether -it was seven or eight. But a quarter to eight--I don't know. I have now -forgotten. - -Mr. RANKIN. What time was he due for work? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He was due at work at 8 or 8:30. At 7:15 he was already -gone. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he rode with Wesley Frazier that -morning? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. I didn't hear him leave. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see a paper bag or cover for the rifle at the -Paine's residence or garage? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see a bag at any time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Where did your husband have his lunch? Did he take a -sandwich to the depository, or did he go home to his rooming house for -lunch? Do you know? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He usually took sandwiches to lunch. But I don't know -whether he would go home or not. - -Mr. RANKIN. Had your husband ever left his wedding ring at home that -way before? - -Mrs. OSWALD. At one time while he was still at Fort Worth, it was -inconvenient for him to work with his wedding ring on and he would -remove it, but at work--he would not leave it at home. His wedding ring -was rather wide, and it bothered him. - -I don't know now. He would take it off at work. - -Mr. RANKIN. Then this is the first time during your married life that -he had ever left it at home where you live? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether your husband carried any package with -him when he left the house on November 22nd? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think that he had a package with his lunch. But a small -package. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he had any package like a rifle in some -container? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you do the rest of the morning, after you got up -on November 22d? - -Mrs. OSWALD. When I got up the television set was on, and I knew that -Kennedy was coming. Ruth had gone to the doctor with her children and -she left the television set on for me. And I watched television all -morning, even without having dressed. She was running around in her -pajamas and watching television with me. - -Mr. RANKIN. Before the assassination, did you ever see your husband -examining the route of the parade as it was published in the paper? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see him looking at a map of Dallas like he did -in connection with the Walker shooting? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did you learn of the shooting of President Kennedy? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I was watching television, and Ruth by that time was -already with me, and she said someone had shot at the President. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you say? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It was hard for me to say anything. We both turned pale. I -went to my room and cried. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you think immediately that your husband might have been -involved? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did Mrs. Paine say anything about the possibility of your -husband being involved? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, but she only said that "By the way, they fired from -the building in which Lee is working." - -My heart dropped. I then went to the garage to see whether the rifle -was there, and I saw that the blanket was still there, and I said, -"Thank God." I thought, "Can there really be such a stupid man in the -world that could do something like that?" But I was already rather -upset at that time--I don't know why. Perhaps my intuition. - -I didn't know what I was doing. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you look in the blanket to see if the rifle was there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't unroll the blanket. It was in its usual position, -and it appeared to have something inside. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you at any time open the blanket to see if the rifle -was there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, only once. - -Mr. RANKIN. You have told us about that. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And what about Mrs. Paine? Did she look in the blanket to -see if the rifle was there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. She didn't know about the rifle. - -Perhaps she did know. But she never told me about it. - -I don't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. When did you learn that the rifle was not in the blanket? - -Mrs. OSWALD. When the police arrived and asked whether my husband had a -rifle, and I said "Yes." - -Mr. RANKIN. Then what happened? - -Mrs. OSWALD. They began to search the apartment. When they came to the -garage and took the blanket, I thought, "Well, now, they will find it." - -They opened the blanket but there was no rifle there. - -Then, of course, I already knew that it was Lee. Because, before that, -while I thought that the rifle was at home, I did not think that Lee -had done that. I thought the police had simply come because he was -always under suspicion. - -Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by that--he was always under suspicion? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, the FBI would visit us. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did they indicate what they suspected him of? - -Mrs. OSWALD. They didn't tell me anything. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to the police when they came? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember now. I was so upset that I don't remember -what I said. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell them about your husband leaving his wedding -ring that morning? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, because I didn't know it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell them that you had looked for the gun you -thought was in the blanket? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, it seems to me I didn't say that. They didn't ask me. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you watch the police open the blanket to see if the -rifle was there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did Mrs. Paine also watch them? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me, as far as I remember. - -Mr. RANKIN. When the police came, did Mrs. Paine act as an interpreter -for you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. She told me about what they had said. But I was not -being questioned so that she would interpret. She told me herself. She -very much loved to talk and she welcomed the occasion. - -Mr. RANKIN. You mean by that that she answered questions of the police -and then told you what she had said? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And what did she tell you that she had said to the police? - -Mrs. OSWALD. She talked to them in the usual manner, in English, when -they were addressing her. - -But when they addressed me, she was interpreting. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the exact time of the day that you discovered -the wedding ring there at the house? - -Mrs. OSWALD. About 2 o'clock, I think. I don't remember. Then -everything got mixed up, all time. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did the police spend considerable time there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember the names of any of the officers? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did they treat you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Rather gruff, not very polite. They kept on following me. -I wanted to change clothes because I was dressed in a manner fitting to -the house. And they would not even let me go into the dressing room to -change. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you say about that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, what could I tell them? - -I asked them, but they didn't want to. They were rather rough. They -kept on saying, hurry up. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did they want you to go with them? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you leave the house with them right soon after they -came? - -Mrs. OSWALD. About an hour, I think. - -Mr. RANKIN. And what were they doing during that hour? - -Mrs. OSWALD. They searched the entire house. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did they take anything with them? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--everything, even some tapes--Ruth's tapes from a tape -recorder, her things. I don't know what. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did they take many of your belongings? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't watch at that time. After all, it is not my -business. If they need it, let them take it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did they give you an inventory of what they took? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. You have never received an inventory? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you now know what they took? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. I know that I am missing my documents, that I am -missing Lee's documents, Lee's wedding ring. - -Mr. RANKIN. What about clothing? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Robert had some of Lee's clothing. I don't know what was -left of Lee's things, but I hope they will return it. No one needs it. - -Mr. RANKIN. What documents do you refer to that you are missing? - -Mrs. OSWALD. My foreign passport, my immigration card, my birth -certificate, my wedding certificate--marriage certificate, June's and -Rachel's birth certificates. Then various letters, my letters from -friends. Perhaps something that has some bearing--photographs, whatever -has some reference--whatever refers to the business at hand, let it -remain. - -Then my diploma. I don't remember everything now. - -Mr. RANKIN. What documents of your husband's do you recall that they -took? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't see what they took. At least at the present time -I have none of Lee's documents. - -Mr. RANKIN. The documents of his that you refer to that you don't have -are similar to your own that you described? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He also had a passport, several work books, labor -cards. I don't know what men here--what sort of documents men here -carry. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, it is now 12:30. - -The CHAIRMAN. I think we will recess now for lunch. - -(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the Commission recessed.) - - - - -Afternoon Session - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED - - -The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m. - -The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Mr. Rankin, you may -continue. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, we will hand you Exhibit 19, which purports to -be an envelope from the Soviet Embassy at Washington, dated November 4, -1963, and ask you if you recall seeing the original or a copy of that. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I had not seen this envelope before, but Lee had told me -that a letter had been received in my name from the Soviet Embassy with -congratulations on the October Revolution--on the date of the October -Revolution. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you think that that came in that Exhibit 19, do you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, because the date coincides, and I didn't get any -other letters. - -Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 19. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be in the record and given the next number. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 19, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. In some newspaper accounts your mother-in-law has intimated -that your husband might have been an agent for some government, and -that she might have--did have information in that regard. - -Do you know anything about that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. The first time that I hear anything about this. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever know---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is all untrue, of course. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever know that you husband was at any time an agent -of the Soviet Union? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever know that your husband was an agent of the -Cuban government at any time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever know that your husband was an agent of any -agency of the United States Government? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever know that your husband was an agent of any -government? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any idea of the motive which induced your -husband to kill the President? - -Mrs. OSWALD. From everything that I know about my husband, and of the -events that transpired, I can conclude that he wanted in any way, -whether good or bad, to do something that would make him outstanding, -that he would be known in history. - -Mr. RANKIN. And is it then your belief that he assassinated the -President, for this purpose? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is my opinion. I don't know how true that is. - -Mr. RANKIN. And what about his shooting at General Walker? Do you think -he had the same motive or purpose in doing that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think that, yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. After the assassination, were you coerced or abused in any -way by the police or anyone else in connection with the inquiry about -the assassination? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you see or speak to your husband on November 22d, -following his arrest? - -Mrs. OSWALD. On the 22d I did not see him. - -On the 23d I met with him. - -Mr. RANKIN. And when you met with him on the 23d, was it at your -request or his? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know whether he requested it, but I know that I -wanted to see him. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you request the right to see your husband on the 22d, -after his arrest? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And what answer were you given at that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I was not permitted to. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who gave you that answer? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. The police. - -Mr. RANKIN. You don't know what officer of the police? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Where did you spend the evening on the night of the -assassination? - -Mrs. OSWALD. On the day of the assassination, on the 22d, after -returning from questioning by the police, I spent the night with Mrs. -Paine, together with Lee's mother. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you receive any threats from anyone at this time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did any law enforcement agency offer you protection at that -time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. When you saw your husband on November 23d, the day after -the assassination, did you have a conversation with him? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And where did this occur? - -Mrs. OSWALD. In the police department. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were just the two of you together at that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, the mother was there together with me. - -Mr. RANKIN. At that time what did you say to him and what did he say to -you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. You probably know better than I do what I told him. - -Mr. RANKIN. Well, I need your best recollection, if you can give it to -us, Mrs. Oswald. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Of course he tried to console me that I should not worry, -that everything would turn out well. He asked about how the children -were. He spoke of some friends who supposedly would help him. I don't -know who he had in mind. That he had written to someone in New York -before that. I was so upset that of course I didn't understand anything -of that. It was simply talk. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to him then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I told him that the police had been there and that a -search had been conducted, that they had asked me whether we had a -rifle, and I had answered yes. - -And he said that if there would be a trial, and that if I am questioned -it would be my right to answer or to refuse to answer. - -Mr. GOPADZE. She asked me if she talked about that thing, the first -evening when I talked to her with the FBI agents, she asked me if she -didn't have to tell me if she didn't want to. And warning her of her -constitutional rights, telling her she didn't have to tell me anything -she didn't want to--at that time, she told me she knew about that, that -she didn't have to tell me if she didn't want to. - -Mrs. OSWALD. And he then asked me, "Who told you you had that right?" -And then I understood that he knew about it. - -Mr. GOPADZE. At that time I did not know. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I thought you had been told about it because the -conversation had certainly been written down. I am sure that while I -was talking to Lee--after all, this was not some sort of a trial of a -theft, but a rather important matter, and I am sure that everything was -recorded. - -Mr. RANKIN. Let me see if I can clarify what you were saying. - -As I understand it, Mr. Gopadze had talked to you with the FBI agents -after the assassination, and they had cautioned you that you didn't -have to talk, in accordance with your constitutional rights, is that -correct? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is right. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you told Mr. Gopadze you already knew that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember what I told him. - -Mr. GOPADZE. Mrs. Oswald, on her own accord, asked me, or told me that -she didn't have to tell us anything she didn't want to. - -I said, "That is right." - -Mrs. OSWALD. I disliked him immediately, because he introduced himself -as being from the FBI. I was at that time very angry at the FBI because -I thought perhaps Lee is not guilty, and they have merely tricked him. - -Mr. GOPADZE. Mr. Rankin, may I, for the benefit of the Commission--I -would like to mention that I didn't represent myself as being an FBI -agent. I just said that I was a government agent, with the FBI. And I -introduced both agents to Mrs. Oswald. - -Mr. RANKIN. And, Mrs. Oswald, you thought he was connected with the FBI -in some way, did you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He had come with them, and I decided he must have been. - -Mr. RANKIN. And your ill feeling towards the FBI was---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. He did not tell me that he was with the FBI, but he was -with them. - -Mr. RANKIN. Your ill feeling towards the FBI was due to the fact that -you thought they were trying to obtain evidence to show your husband -was guilty in regard to the assassination? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. But you have said since the assassination that you didn't -want to believe it, but you had to believe that your husband had killed -President Kennedy, is that right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. There were some facts, but not too many, and I didn't -know too much about it at that time yet. After all, there are in life -some accidental concurrences of circumstances. And it is very difficult -to believe in that. - -Mr. RANKIN. But from what you have learned since that time, you arrived -at this conclusion, did you, that your husband had killed the President? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Unfortunately, yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you related those facts that you learned to what you -already knew about your life with him and what you knew he had done and -appeared to be doing in order to come to that conclusion? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. When you saw your husband on November 23d, at the police -station, did you ask him if he had killed President Kennedy? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask him at that time if he had killed Officer -Tippit? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. I said, "I don't believe that you did that, and -everything will turn out well." - -After all, I couldn't accuse him--after all, he was my husband. - -Mr. RANKIN. And what did he say to that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He said that I should not worry, that everything would -turn out well. But I could see by his eyes that he was guilty. Rather, -he tried to appear to be brave. However, by his eyes I could tell that -he was afraid. - -This was just a feeling. It is hard to describe. - -Mr. RANKIN. Would you help us a little bit by telling us what you saw -in his eyes that caused you to think that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He said goodbye to me with his eyes. I knew that. He said -that everything would turn out well, but he did not believe it himself. - -Mr. RANKIN. How could you tell that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I saw it in his eyes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband ever at any time say to you that he was -responsible or had anything to do with the killing of President Kennedy? - -Mrs. OSWALD. After Kennedy--I only saw him once, and he didn't tell me -anything, and I didn't see him again. - -Mr. RANKIN. And did he at any time tell you that he had anything to do -with the shooting of Officer Tippit? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever ask your husband why he ran away or tried to -escape after the assassination? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't ask him about that. - -Mr. RANKIN. On either November 22d, or Saturday, November 23d, did -anyone contact you and advise you that your husband was going to be -shot? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Where did you spend the evening of November 23d? - -Mrs. OSWALD. After seeing Lee, we went with some reporters of Life -Magazine who had rented a room, but it turned out to be--in a -hotel--but it turned out to be inconvenient because there were many -people there and we went to another place. We were in a hotel in -Dallas, but I don't know the name. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who was with you at that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Lee's mother. - -Mr. RANKIN. Anyone else? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No--June and Rachel. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was Robert with you at all? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I saw Robert in the police--at the police station, but he -did not stay with us at the hotel. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, the evening of November 22d, were you at Ruth Paine's -house? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. At that time did the reporters come there and the Life -reporters, and ask you and your mother-in-law and Mrs. Paine about what -had happened? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. We have a report that there was quite a scene between Mrs. -Paine and your mother-in-law at that time. Was there such an event? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I did not understand English too well, and I did not know -what they were quarreling about. I know that the reporters wanted to -talk to me, but his mother made a scene and went into hysterics, and -said I should not talk and that she would not talk. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did she say why she would not talk? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps she said it in English. I didn't understand. She -talked to the reporters. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did she say anything about being paid if she was going to -tell any story? - -Mrs. OSWALD. She has a mania--only money, money, money. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you understand that she was quarreling with Ruth Paine -about something concerning the interview? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. It appeared to be a quarrel, but what they quarreled -about, I don't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. And after the quarrel, did you leave there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I went to my room. But then I showed Lee's mother the -photograph, where he is photographed with a rifle, and told her he -had shot at Walker and it appeared he might have been shooting at the -President. She said that I should hide that photograph and not show it -to anyone. - -On the next day I destroyed one photograph which I had. I think I had -two small ones. When we were in the hotel I burned it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to her about the destruction of the -photographs when she suggested that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. She saw it, while I was destroying them. - -Mr. RANKIN. After the assassination, did the police and FBI and the -Secret Service ask you many questions? - -Mrs. OSWALD. In the police station there was a routine regular -questioning, as always happens. And then after I was with the agents -of the Secret Service and the FBI, they asked me many questions, of -course--many questions. Sometimes the FBI agents asked me questions -which had no bearing or relationship, and if I didn't want to answer -they told me that if I wanted to live in this country, I would have to -help in this matter, even though they were often irrelevant. That is -the FBI. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who said that to you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Heitman and Bogoslav, who was an interpreter for the -FBI. - -Mr. RANKIN. You understand that you do not have to tell this Commission -in order to stay in this country, don't you, now? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. You are not under any compulsion to tell the Commission -here in order to be able to stay in the country. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I understand that. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you have come here because you want to tell us what you -could about this matter, is that right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is my voluntary wish, and no one forced me to do this. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did these various people from the police and the Secret -Service and the FBI treat you courteously when they asked you about the -matters that they did, concerning the assassination and things leading -up to it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I have a very good opinion about the Secret Service, and -the people in the police department treated me very well. But the FBI -agents were somehow polite and gruff. Sometimes they would mask a gruff -question in a polite form. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you see anyone from the Immigration Service during this -period of time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who that was? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember the name. I think he is the chairman of -that office. At least he was a representative of that office. - -Mr. RANKIN. By "that office" you mean the one at Dallas? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I was told that he had especially come from New York, it -seems to me. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did he say to you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That if I was not guilty of anything, if I had not -committed any crime against this Government, then I had every right -to live in this country. This was a type of introduction before the -questioning by the FBI. He even said that it would be better for me if -I were to help them. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he explain to you what he meant by being better for you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. In the sense that I would have more rights in this -country. I understood it that way. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you understand that you were being threatened with -deportation if you didn't answer these questions? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I did not understand it that way. - -You see, it was presented in such a delicate form, but there was a -clear implication that it would be better if I were to help. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. This was only felt. It wasn't said in actual words. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you feel that it was a threat? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This was not quite a threat--it was not a threat. But it -was their great desire that I be in contact, in touch with the FBI. I -sensed that. - -Mr. RANKIN. But you did not consider it to be a threat to you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone indicate that it would affect your ability to -work in this country if you cooperated? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is there anything else about your treatment by law -enforcement officials during this period that you would like to tell -the Commission about? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think that the FBI agents knew that I was afraid that -after everything that had happened I could not remain to live in this -country, and they somewhat exploited that for their own purposes, in a -very polite form, so that you could not say anything after that. They -cannot be accused of anything. They approached it in a very clever, -contrived way. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was there anyone else of the law enforcement officials that -you felt treated you in that manner? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. As for the rest, I was quite content. Everyone was -very attentive towards me. - -Mr. RANKIN. Where were you on the morning of November 24th when your -husband was killed? - -Mrs. OSWALD. The night from the 23d to the 24th I spent at a hotel in -Dallas, together with the mother. She wanted to make sure that the -Life reporters who had taken this room would pay for it, as they had -promised. But they disappeared. Then she telephoned Robert, it seems to -me, and Gregory--no, Mr. Gregory. And I know that he came with Robert, -and Robert paid for the room. And, after that, after we left the hotel, -we met with the Secret Service agents. I wanted to see Lee, and we were -supposed to go to the police station to see him. - -Mr. RANKIN. That was on November 24th, on Sunday? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And then what happened? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember whether we went to Ruth to take my things -or perhaps--in general, I remember that en route, in the car, Mike -Howard or Charley Kunkel said that Lee had been shot today. - -At first he said that it wasn't serious--perhaps just not to frighten -me. I was told that he had been taken to a hospital, and then I was -told that he had been seriously wounded. - -Then they had to telephone somewhere. They stopped at the house of the -chief of police, Curry. From there, I telephone Ruth to tell her that I -wanted to take several things which I needed with me and asked her to -prepare them. And that there was a wallet with money and Lee's ring. - -Soon after that--Robert was no longer with me, but Gregory was there, -and the mother, and the Secret Service agents. They said that Lee had -died. - -After that, we went to the Motel Inn, the Six Flags Inn, where I stayed -for several days--perhaps two weeks--I don't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what time of the day you heard that your -husband had been shot? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Two o'clock in the afternoon, I think. - -Mr. RANKIN. And where were you at that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I was in a car. - -Mr. RANKIN. Just riding around, or at some particular place? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, not at two o'clock--earlier. Lee was shot at 11 -o'clock. It was probably close to 12 o'clock. He died at one. - -Mr. RANKIN. And where was the car that you were in at that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. We were on the way to Chief Curry, en route from the hotel. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you do after you went to the motel? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I left with Robert and we prepared for the funeral. - -Then Ruth Paine sent my things to me via the agent. - -Mr. GOPADZE. She would like a recess for a little while. She has a -headache. - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes, we will recess. - -(Brief recess) - -The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Do you feel refreshed -now, Mrs. Oswald, ready to proceed? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, thank you. - -The CHAIRMAN. Very well. - -Mr. Rankin? - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I asked you if you asked your husband about -his efforts to escape, why he did that. I will ask you now whether -in light of what you said about his seeking notoriety in connection -with the assassination, in your opinion how you explain his efforts to -escape, which would presumably not give him that notoriety. - -Mrs. OSWALD. When he did that, he probably did it with the intention of -becoming notorious. But after that, it is probably a normal reaction of -a man to try and escape. - -Mr. RANKIN. You will recall that in the interviews, after the -assassination, you first said that you thought your husband didn't do -it, do you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember it, but quite possibly I did say that. - -You must understand that now I only speak the truth. - -Mr. RANKIN. Recently you said that you thought your husband did kill -President Kennedy. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I now have enough facts to say that. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you give us or the Commission an idea generally about -when you came to this latter conclusion, that he did kill President -Kennedy? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps a week after it all happened, perhaps a little -more. The more facts came out, the more convinced I was. - -Mr. RANKIN. You have stated in some of your interviews that your -husband would get on his knees and cry and say that he was lost. Do you -recall when this happened? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That was in New Orleans. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was it more than one occasion? - -Mrs. OSWALD. When he said that, that was only once. - -Mr. RANKIN. And do you know what caused him to say that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. You don't know whether there was some occasion or some -happening that caused it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your mother-in-law ever indicate that she had some -particular evidence, either oral or documentary, that would decide this -case? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, she always said that she has a pile of papers and -many acquaintances. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever ask her to tell you what it was that would be -so decisive about the case? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I would have liked to ask her, but I didn't speak any -English. And then I didn't believe her. What documents could she have -when she had not seen Lee for one year, and she didn't even know we -lived in New Orleans? - -I think that is just simply idle talk, that she didn't have anything. - -Perhaps she does have something. - -But I think that it is only she who considers that she has something -that might reveal, uncover this. - -Mr. RANKIN. Has there been any time that you wanted to see your -mother-in-law that you have been prevented from doing so? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Never. - -I don't want to see her, I didn't want to. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I am going to ask you about differences -between you and your mother-in-law, not for the purpose of embarrassing -you in any way, but since we are going to ask her to testify it might -be helpful to the Commission to know that background. - -I hope you will bear with us. - -Have you had some differences with your mother-in-law? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I am sorry that you will devote your time to questioning -her, because you will only be tired and very sick after talking to -her. I am very much ashamed to have this kind of relationship to my -mother-in-law. I would like to be closer to her and to be on better -terms with her. But when you get to know her, you will understand why. -I don't think that she can help you. - -But if it is a formality, then, of course. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, can you describe for the Commission your -differences so the Commission will be able to evaluate those -differences? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, she asserts, for example, that I don't know -anything, that I am being forced to say that Lee is guilty in -everything, that she knows more. - -This is what our differences are. - -Mr. RANKIN. And have you responded to her when she said those things? - -Mrs. OSWALD. She said this by means of newspapers and television. - -I haven't seen her. - -I would like to tell her that, but it is impossible to tell her that, -because she would scratch my eyes out. - -Mr. RANKIN. Are there any other differences between you and your -mother-in-law that you have not described? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, there are no more. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know of any time that your husband had money in -excess of what he obtained from the jobs he was working on? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. He had his unemployment insurance when he was out of work. -Is that right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And then he had the earnings from his jobs, is that right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, beyond those amounts, do you know of any sum of money -that he had from any source? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he was ever acting as an undercover -agent for the FBI. - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you believe that he was at any time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not he was acting as an agent for -the CIA at any time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you believe that he was? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you know Jack Ruby, the man that killed your husband? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Before the murder of your husband by Jack Ruby, had you -ever known of him? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, never. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether your husband knew Jack Ruby before the -killing? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He was not acquainted with him. Lee did not frequent -nightclubs, as the papers said. - -Mr. RANKIN. How do you know that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He was always with me. He doesn't like other women. He -didn't drink. Why should he then go? - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know any reason why Jack Ruby killed your husband? - -Mrs. OSWALD. About that, Jack Ruby should be questioned. - -Mr. RANKIN. I have to ask you, Mrs. Oswald. - -Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't tell me. - -Mr. RANKIN. And do you know any reason why he should? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know, but it seems to me that he was a sick person -at that time, perhaps. At least when I see his picture in the paper -now, it is an abnormal face. - -Mr. RANKIN. Has your husband ever mentioned the name Jack Ruby to you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. He never at any time said anything about Jack Ruby that you -can recall? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, never. I heard that name for the first time after he -killed Lee. - -I would like to consult with Mr. Thorne and Mr. Gopadze. - -The CHAIRMAN. You may. - -(Brief recess) - -The CHAIRMAN. All right. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, would you like to add something to your -testimony? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. This is in connection with why I left the room. I -will tell you why I left the room. - -I consulted with my attorney, whether I should bring this up. This is -not a secret. The thing is that I have written a letter, even though I -have not mailed it yet, to the attorney--to the prosecuting attorney -who will prosecute Jack Ruby. I wrote in that letter that even--that -if Jack Ruby killed my husband, and I felt that I have a right as the -widow of the man he killed to say that, that if he killed him he should -be punished for it. But that in accordance with the laws here, the -capital punishment, the death penalty is imposed for such a crime, and -that I do not want him to be subjected to that kind of a penalty. I -do not want another human life to be taken. And I don't want it to be -believed because of this letter that I had been acquainted with Ruby, -and that I wanted to protect him. - -It is simply that it is pity to--I feel sorry for another human life. -Because this will not return--bring back to life Kennedy or the others -who were killed. But they have their laws, and, of course, I do not -have the right to change them. That is only my opinion, and perhaps -they will pay some attention to it. - -That is all. - -Mr. RANKIN. Had you ever been in the Carousel Nightclub? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I have never been in nightclubs. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you know where it was located before your husband was -killed by Jack Ruby? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't know it now either. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us whether your husband was right handed or -left handed? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, he was right handed. - -His brother writes with his left hand and so does--his brother and -mother both write with their left hand. - -And since I mentioned Jack Ruby, the mother and Robert want Ruby to be -subjected to a death penalty. And in that we differ. - -Mr. RANKIN. Have they told you the reason why they wanted the death -penalty imposed? - -Mrs. OSWALD. In their view, a killing has to be repaid by a killing. - -In my opinion, it is not so. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is there anything more about the assassination of President -Kennedy that you know that you have not told the Commission? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't know anything. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is there anything that your husband ever told you about -proposing to assassinate President Kennedy that you haven't told the -Commission? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't know that. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, Mrs. Oswald, we will turn to some period in Russia, -and ask you about that for a little while. - -Can you tell us the time and place of your birth? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I was born on July 17, 1941, in Severo Dvinsk, in the -Arkhangelskaya Region. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who were your parents? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Names? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes, please. - -Mrs. OSWALD. My mother was Clogia Vasilyevna Proosakova. She was a -laboratory assistant. - -Mr. RANKIN. And your father? - -Mrs. OSWALD. And I had a stepfather. I had no father. I never knew him. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who did you live with as a child? - -Mrs. OSWALD. With my stepfather, with my mother, and sometimes with my -grandmother--grandmother on my mother's side. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you live with your grandparents before you went back to -live with your mother and your stepfather? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I lived with my grandmother until I was approximately -five years old. - -Mr. RANKIN. And then you moved to live with your mother and your -stepfather, did you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And was that in Leningrad? - -Mrs. OSWALD. After the war, we lived in Moldavia for some time. After -the war it was easier to live there, better to live there. And then we -returned to Leningrad where we lived with my stepfather's mother--also -with my half brother and half sister. - -Mr. RANKIN. What was your stepfather's business? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He was an electrician in a power station in Leningrad. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have brothers and sisters? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. How many? - -Mrs. OSWALD. One brother, one sister--from my mother's second marriage. - -Mr. RANKIN. How old were they? - -Mrs. OSWALD. How old are they, or were they? - -Mr. RANKIN. Are they--I mean in comparison with your age. Were they -three or four years older than you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. My brother is 5 years younger than I am. My sister is -probably 9 years younger than I am. About four years between brother -and sister. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether your stepfather was a member of the -Communist Party? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is, you don't know, or you know he was not? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I know that he was not a member. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you live for a period with your mother alone? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. After my mother's death, I continued to live with my -stepfather, and later went to live in Minsk, with my uncle--my mother's -brother. - -Mr. RANKIN. What was your stepfather's name? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Alexandr Ivanovich Medvedev. - -Mr. RANKIN. When did you leave the home of your stepfather? - -Mrs. OSWALD. In 1961. No--1959. - -Mr. RANKIN. What was your grandfather's occupation? - -Mrs. OSWALD. On my mother's side? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mrs. OSWALD. He was a ship's captain. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was he a member of the Communist Party? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. He died shortly after the war. - -Mr. RANKIN. Which war? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Second. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you get along well with your grandparents? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I was their favorite. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you get along with your stepfather? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. I was not a good child. I was too fresh with him. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your mother and your stepfather move to Zguritsa? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is in Moldavia, where we lived. That is after the -war. It was a very good life there. They still had some kulaks, a lot -of food, and we lived very well. - -After the war, people lived there pretty well, but they were -dekulakized subsequently. - -By the way, I don't understand all of that, because these people worked -with their own hands all their lives. I was very sorry when I heard -that everything had been taken away from them and they had been sent -somewhere to Siberia where after living in the south it would be very -cold. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your mother have any occupation? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, laboratory assistant--I said that. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was she a member of the Communist Party? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall when your mother died? - -Mrs. OSWALD. In 1957. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you receive a pension after your mother's death? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. How much was it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. All children received pensions. - -We received for it 3520 rubles, the old rubles. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was that called a children's pension? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. It was paid up to majority, up to the age of 18. - -Mr. RANKIN. And was it paid to you directly or to your stepfather? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It was paid to me directly. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your brother and sister get a similar pension? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your stepfather adopt you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I was not adopted. - -Mr. RANKIN. What was your relationship with your half brother? Did you -get along with him? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I loved them very much, and they loved me. - -Mr. RANKIN. And your half sister, too? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. They are very good children. Not like me. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us what schools you went to? - -Mrs. OSWALD. At first I went to school in Moldavia, and later in -Leningrad, in a girl's school and then after finishing school I studied -in a pharmaceutical institute--pharmaceutical school, rather than -institute. - -Mr. RANKIN. Where was the pharmaceutical school? - -Mrs. OSWALD. In Leningrad. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you go through high school before you went to the -pharmaceutical school? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the names of any of your teachers? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Dmitry Rossovsky. I remember the director of the school, -Nadelman Matvey Akimovich. It is hard to remember now. I have already -forgotten. I have had good teachers. They treated me very well, they -helped me after my mother died. Knowing my difficult nature, they -approached me very pedagogically. But now I would have changed that -nature. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were you a good student? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I was capable but lazy. I never spent much time studying. -You know, everything came to me very easily. Sometimes my ability saved -me. My language, you know--I talk a lot, and get a good grade. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you work part-time while you were going to school? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. The money which I received on the pension was not -enough, and therefore I had to work as well as study. - -Mr. RANKIN. And what did you do in working? - -Mrs. OSWALD. At first I worked in a school cafeteria, school lunchroom. -This was good for me, because I also got enough to eat that way. - -And then I felt the work was not for me, that it was too restricted, -and then I worked in a pharmacy. Then when I graduated I worked in a -pharmacy as a full-fledged pharmacist--as a pharmacist's assistant. - -Mr. RANKIN. Before you graduated, how much were you paid for your work? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think I received 36 per month--this is new rubles--at -that time it was still 360 old rubles. But I could eat there three -times a day. And then this was a lunchroom that was part of a large -restaurant where everyone liked me and I always was treated to all -sorts of tidbits and candy. I remember they had some busboys there who -always saved something for me. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you save any money while you were working before you -graduated? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know how to save money. I like to make presents. - -Mr. RANKIN. Where did you work after you graduated? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I was assigned to work in Leningrad, but my stepfather -didn't want me to remain with him because he thought perhaps he would -marry again, and, therefore, I left. - -But he hasn't married up until now. - -Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 20, and ask you if you know what that is. - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is my diploma. My goodness, what did they do with my -diploma? - -I can't work with it. The government seal is missing. Who will give me -a new diploma? - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I want to explain to you--the Commission -hasn't done anything to your diploma. We are informed that---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. They should have treated it a little more carefully, -though. - -Mr. RANKIN. The process was trying to determine fingerprints. It wasn't -our action. - -Mrs. OSWALD. There must be many fingerprints on there. All of my -teachers and everybody that ever looked at it. I am sorry--it is a pity -for my diploma. - -Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 20. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be marked. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 20, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why on Exhibit 20 there is no date of admission -to the school? - -Mrs. OSWALD. There is no entrance date on it, but it does show the date -of issue and the date of graduation. - -Mr. RANKIN. Isn't there a place for admission, though? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, there is a place for it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know when you were admitted to the school? - -Mrs. OSWALD. In 1955. - -Mr. KRIMER. I might mention the place here is for the year only, not -for a full date. - -Mr. DULLES. 1955, did you say? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, 1955. - -Mr. RANKIN. In this job that you obtained after you left the school, -what were your duties? - -Mrs. OSWALD. When I worked in the pharmacy? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I worked in a hospital pharmacy. I prepared prescriptions. -After the rounds every day, the doctors prescribed prescriptions, and -the nurses of each department of the hospital enter that in a book, -and turn it over to the pharmacy for preparation, where we again -transcribed it from the nurses' book as a prescription and prepared it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were you assigned to a particular job or did you go out and -get the job? How was that arranged? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Generally upon graduation there is an assignment. I was -sent to work to a drug warehouse in Leningrad. But this work was not -very interesting, because everything was in packages. It is more of a -warehousing job. And, therefore, if I had wanted to change I could have -changed to any pharmacy. This assignment is only performed in order to -guarantee that the graduate has a job. But the graduate can go to work -somewhere else. - -Mr. RANKIN. How long did you stay in this first job? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I was there for three days, which is a probationary -period, intended to have the employee familiarize himself with his -duties. I didn't like that work, and I went to Minsk, and worked there. -I worked there in my own specialty with pleasure. But the reference -which I received after I was going to the United States was not very -good, because they were very dissatisfied with the fact that I was -going to the United States. They could not understand how could it be -that a good worker could leave. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you select Minsk as a place to go and work yourself? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. You were not assigned there, then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Could you have selected other places that you wished to go -to and work? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, but the registration is very difficult. In Russia you -cannot settle in a large city if you are not registered. - -Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. If I lived in Leningrad, I had the right to work there. -But if someone would come there from a village he would not have the -right to work, because he was not registered and he would not be -permitted to. But to move from a larger city to a smaller one, then -they may register, such as Minsk. - -Mr. RANKIN. By register, do you mean that if you want to go to a place -like Leningrad, you had to be recorded some way in the city? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is, registered in the police department. - -Mr. RANKIN. And if you were not registered, they would not give you a -job, is that what you mean? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -No, you would not get a job. There are people who want to come to -Leningrad. The housing problem has not been solved. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us how you get registered if you would like to -be registered in Leningrad from some other point? - -Mrs. OSWALD. First you must have relatives who might have some spare -living space for a person. Sometimes people who have money buy that. -You know money does a great deal everywhere. - -Mr. RANKIN. And then after you have shown that you have a place to -live, do they register you as a matter of course, or do you have to -have something else? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Not always. One has to have connections, acquaintances. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were you registered in Leningrad before you left there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course. But if I had spent one year not living in -Leningrad, and were to return, I would not be registered. - -Mr. RANKIN. But since you were registered there, you could have found a -position in some pharmacy or pharmaceutical work there, could you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes, of course. - -Mr. RANKIN. Then, can you tell us how you decided to go to Minsk -instead of staying in Leningrad? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I was very sorry to leave Leningrad, but there were family -circumstances. - -What can one do? - -It is not very pleasant to be a sty in the eye of a stepfather. - -Mr. RANKIN. So it is because you liked to leave your stepfather's home -that you sought some other city in which to work? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I had no other place to live in Leningrad, and I did -not have enough money to pay for an apartment. - -I received 45 and I would have had to pay 30 for an apartment. - -Mr. RANKIN. Could you have gotten a job in Leningrad if you stayed -there that would pay you so you could have an apartment? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Pharmaceutical workers received comparatively little, -which is quite undeserved, because they have to study so long, and it -is responsible work. Teachers and doctors also receive very little. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you conclude that you could not get a job that would -pay you enough to live in your own apartment in Leningrad, then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. If I had an apartment in Leningrad. I would have had to -work overtime hours in order to be able to pay for it, because the -normal workday is only 6-1/2 hours, because they consider that to be -hazardous work. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a social life while you were in Leningrad? - -Mrs. OSWALD. What do you mean by social life? - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have friends that you went out with in the evening, -pleasant times? - -Mrs. OSWALD. An awful lot. - -Mr. RANKIN. So that except for the problem of your stepfather, you -enjoyed it there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes, of course. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any vacations while you were in Leningrad? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. After working in Minsk for one year I received a -vacation and went to a rest home near Leningrad. - -Mr. RANKIN. How long did you stay there on vacation? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Three weeks. Three weeks in the rest home, and one week I -spent in Leningrad with some friends. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the name of the rest home? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have to ask anyone in Leningrad in order to be able -to leave there to go to Minsk, or you just go to Minsk and ask the -people there to register you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I simply bought a ticket and went to Minsk, to my uncle. - -Mr. RANKIN. And were you registered there then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. What kind of pay did you get when you worked in Minsk? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Forty-five, as everywhere. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was that per week? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, that is a month. That is not America. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is that 45 rubles? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Per month? - -Mr. DULLES. Old rubles or new rubles? - -Mr. RANKIN. Is that old rubles? - -Mrs. OSWALD. New rubles. - -Mr. RANKIN. What were your hours in this work? - -Mrs. OSWALD. 10 a.m., to 4:30 p.m. - -Mr. RANKIN. When you said this same pay was paid all over, did you mean -to say that you got the same amount regardless of whether you were in a -big city or a small city? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is the pharmacists rate everywhere. Unless you -work in a specialized sort of an institution, such as a military -hospital--there the pay is higher. - -Mr. RANKIN. What was the nature of your work? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Preparation of prescriptions. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you supervise the preparation of the prescriptions, or -did you just put them up yourself? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I prepared them myself. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a supervisor? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I was in charge of myself. If I was working at a table, I -was responsible for it. - -Of course every institution is in charge of a supervisor who does not -prepare medications--he is only an administrator. - -Mr. RANKIN. How many days of the week did you work on this job? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Six days. Except if a holiday falls upon a weekday. Then I -didn't work. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were these prescriptions prepared only for patients in the -hospital? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Sometimes we prepared something for ourselves or for -friends, or somebody would ask us. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you pay anything to your uncle and aunt for staying -there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. They had--they were well provided for, and my uncle -wanted that I spend the money on myself. - -Mr. RANKIN. What was the name of this uncle? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Ilva Vasilyevich Proosakov. - -Mr. RANKIN. What was the nature of his work? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He works in the Ministry of the Interior of the -Byelorussian SSR. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he have something to do with lumbering? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He is an engineer. He is a graduate of a forestry -institute. Technical institute. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is he an officer? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He was a colonel--a lieutenant colonel or colonel, I think. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he have a nice apartment compared with the others? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, very nice. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he have a telephone in the apartment? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were you supporting yourself during this period except for -the fact you didn't pay anything for your room and board? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you save money? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. I would receive my pay and I would spend everything in -one day--three days tops. - -Mr. RANKIN. What would you spend it for? - -Mrs. OSWALD. First all the necessary things which I had to buy--shoes, -an overcoat for winter. It is cold there, and, therefore, you have to -wear warm clothes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was your uncle a member of the Communist Party? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he is a Communist. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you belong to any organizations during this period in -Minsk? - -Mrs. OSWALD. First I was a member of the Trade Union. Then I joined the -Comsomol, but I was discharged after one year. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why you were discharged? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I paid my membership dues regularly, and at first they -didn't know who I was or what I was, but after they found out that -I had married an American and was getting ready to go to the United -States, I was discharged from the Comsomol. They said that I had -anti-Soviet views, even though I had no anti-Soviet views of any kind. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you think that they thought you had anti-Soviet views -because you married an American? - -Mrs. OSWALD. They didn't say that. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did they give any reason, other than the fact that you had -them? - -Mrs. OSWALD. They never gave that as a direct reason, because the -Soviet Government was not against marrying an American. But every small -official wants to keep his place, and he is afraid of any troubles. I -think it was sort of insurance. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was there any kind of a hearing about your being let out of -the Comsomol? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you attend? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't go there, and they discharged me without me--I -was very glad. There was even a reporter there from Comsomol paper, -Comsomol Pravda, I think. He tried to shame me quite strongly--for -what, I don't know. And he said that he would write about this in the -paper, and I told him "Go ahead and write." - -But he didn't write anything, because, after all, what could he write? - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you make any objection to being removed from the -Comsomol? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you belong to any social clubs there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you belong to any culture groups? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you go out with groups of students in the evening? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Of course. - -Mr. RANKIN. After you came to the United States, did you correspond -with some of these friends? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, but these were not the same friends. They were -generally some girl friends before I was married and some friends we -made later. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a social life there at Minsk? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Of course. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did that social life consist of? Did you go to parties -or to the opera or theater, or what? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Sometimes we met at the home of some friends. Of course -we went to the opera, to the theater, to concerts, to the circus. To a -restaurant. - -Mr. RANKIN. When did you first meet Lee Oswald? - -Mrs. OSWALD. The first time when I went to a dance, to a party. And -there I met Lee. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the date? - -Mrs. OSWALD. On March 4th. - -Mr. RANKIN. What year? - -Mrs. OSWALD. 1961. - -Mr. RANKIN. Where did you meet him? - -Mrs. OSWALD. In Minsk. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes--but can you tell us the place? - -Mrs. OSWALD. In the Palace of Trade Unions. - -Mr. RANKIN. What kind of a place is that? Is that where there are -public meetings? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Sometimes they do have meetings there. Sometimes it is -also rented by some institutes who do not have their own halls for -parties. - -Mr. RANKIN. They have dances? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Every Saturday and Sunday. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did someone introduce you to him? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who introduced you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I had gone there with my friends from the medical -institute, and one of them introduced me to Lee. - -Mr. RANKIN. What was his name? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yuri Mereginsky. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know by what name Lee Oswald was introduced to you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Everyone there called him Alec, at his place of work, -because Lee is an unusual, cumbersome name. For Russians it was -easier--this was easier. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is Alec a name close to Lee, as far as the Russian language -is concerned? - -Mrs. OSWALD. A little. Somewhat similar. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you know that Lee Oswald was an American when you first -met him? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I found that out at the end of that party, towards the end -of that party, when I was first introduced to him, I didn't know that. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did that make any difference? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It was more interesting, of course. You don't meet -Americans very often. - -Mr. RANKIN. After this first meeting, did you meet him a number of -times? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you describe just briefly how you met him and saw him? - -Mrs. OSWALD. After the first meeting he asked me where he could meet me -again. I said that perhaps some day I will come back here again, to the -Palace. About a week later I came there again with my girl friend, and -he was there. - -Mr. RANKIN. And did he have a period that he was in the hospital there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I had arranged to meet with him again. I had already given -him a telephone number. But he went to a hospital and he called me -from there. We had arranged to meet on a Friday, and he called from -the hospital and said he couldn't because he was in the hospital and I -should come there, if I could. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn what was wrong with him then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He was near the ear, nose and throat section and it seems -that he had something wrong with his ears and also the glands or polyps. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you visit him regularly for some period of time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, quite frequently, because I felt sorry for him being -there alone. - -Mr. RANKIN. And did you observe a scar on his left arm? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He had a scar, but I found that out only after we were -married. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you find out about that scar? - -Mrs. OSWALD. When I asked him about it, he became very angry and asked -me never to ask about that again. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever explain to you what caused the scar? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever learn what caused the scar? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I found out here, now, recently. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn that he had tried to commit suicide at some -time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I found that out now. - -Mr. RANKIN. During the time Lee Oswald was courting you, did he talk -about America at all? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course. - -Mr. RANKIN. What do you recall that he said about it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. At that time, of course, he was homesick, and perhaps he -was sorry for having come to Russia. He said many good things. He said -that his home was warmer and that people lived better. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he talk about returning? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Then? No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he describe the life in America as being very -attractive? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. At least in front of others he always defended it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. It is strange to reconcile this. When he was there he was -saying good things about America. - -Mr. RANKIN. And when he was talking only to you, did he do that, too? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Before you were married, did you find out anything about -his plans to return to America? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn anything before you were married about the -fact that there might be some doubt whether he could return to the -United States? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Once before we were married we had a talk and I asked him -whether he could return to the United States if he wanted to, and he -said no, he could not. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you why? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. At that time, he didn't. He said that when he had -arrived, he had thrown his passport on a table and said that he would -not return any more to the United States. He thought that they would -not forgive him such an act. - -Mr. RANKIN. Before you were married, did you ever say to him you would -like to go to the United States? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what attracted you to him? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. First, the fact that he was--he didn't look -like others. You could see he was an American. He was very neat, very -polite, not the way he was here, not as you know him here. And it -seemed that he would be a good family man. And he was good. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you talk about many things when you were together, when -he was courting you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. We talked about everything, about the moon and the weather. - -Mr. RANKIN. Where was he living at that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. In Minsk. By the way, on the same street where I lived. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he have an apartment? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. By the way, this was the same apartment where I had -dreamed to live. I didn't know about it yet. It had a very beautiful -balcony, terrace. I would look at that building sometimes and say it -would be good to visit in that building, visit someone there, but I -never thought that I would wind up living there. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you describe the number of rooms there were in his -apartment? - -Mrs. OSWALD. We had a small room--one room, kitchen, foyer, and -bathroom. A large terrace, balcony. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what he paid for rent? - -Mrs. OSWALD. For two it was quite sufficient. Seven and a half rubles -per month. - -Mr. RANKIN. Wasn't that pretty cheap for such a nice apartment? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it was cheap. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was this apartment nicer than most in this city? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, in that city they have good apartments because the -houses are new. That is, on a Russian scale, of course. You cannot -compare it to private houses people live in here. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he have an automobile? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, no. In Russia this is a problem. In Russia it is -difficult to have an automobile. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he have a television set? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. Only a radio receiver, a record player. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a telephone? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No--I don't like television. - -Mr. RANKIN. Why? - -Mrs. OSWALD. The programs are not always interesting, and you can get -into a stupor just watching television. It is better to go to the -movies. - -Mr. RANKIN. What was his occupation at this time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He worked in a radio plant in Minsk. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what his work was? - -Mrs. OSWALD. As an ordinary laborer--metal worker. From that point of -view, he was nothing special. I had a greater choice in the sense that -many of my friends were engineers and doctors. But that is not the main -thing. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did others with a similar job have similar apartments? - -Mrs. OSWALD. The house in which we lived belonged to the factory in -which Lee worked. But, of course, no one had a separate apartment -for only two persons. I think that Lee had been given better living -conditions, better than others, because he was an American. If Lee had -been Russian, and we would have had two children, we could not have -obtained a larger apartment. But since he was an American, we would -have obtained the larger one. It seems to me that in Russia they treat -foreigners better than they should. It would be better if they treated -Russians better. Not all foreigners are better than the Russians. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he say whether he liked this job? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, he didn't like it. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. First of all, he was being ordered around by someone. He -didn't like that. - -Mr. RANKIN. Anything else? - -Mrs. OSWALD. And the fact that it was comparatively dirty work. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about the Russian system, whether he -liked it or not? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He didn't like it. Not everything, but some things. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about Communists and whether he liked -that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't like Russian Communists. He said that they -joined the party not because of the ideas, but in order to obtain -better living conditions and to get the benefit of them. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did it appear to you that he had become disenchanted with -the Soviet system? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he had expected much more when he first arrived. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever tell you why he came to Russia? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He said he had read a great deal about Russia, he was -interested in seeing the country, which was the first in the Socialist -camp about which much had been said, and he wanted to see it with his -own eyes. And, therefore, he wanted to be not merely a tourist, who is -being shown only the things that are good, but he wanted to live among -the masses and see. - -But when he actually did, it turned out to be quite difficult. - -The CHAIRMAN. I think we better adjourn now for the day. - -(Whereupon, at 4:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -_Thursday, February 6, 1964_ - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED - -The President's Commission met at 10 a.m. on February 6, 1964, at 200 -Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. - -Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman -Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and -Allen W. Dulles, members. - -Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Melvin Aron -Eisenberg, assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; -William D. Krimer, and Leon I. Gopadze, interpreters; and John M. -Thorne, attorney for Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald. - - -The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. We will proceed again. -Mr. Rankin? - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, if I may return a moment with you to the time -that you told us about your husband practicing with the rifle at Love -Field. As I recall your testimony, you said that he told you that he -had taken the rifle and practiced with it there, is that right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I knew that he practiced with it there. He told me, later. - -Mr. RANKIN. And by practicing with it, did you mean that he fired the -rifle there, as you understood it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what he did with it there. He probably fired -it. But I didn't see him. - -Mr. RANKIN. And then you said that you had seen him cleaning it after -he came back, is that right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, do you recall your husband having any ammunition -around the house at any time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And where do you remember his having it in the places you -lived? - -Mrs. OSWALD. On Neely Street, in Dallas, and New Orleans. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether that was rifle ammunition or rifle and -pistol ammunition? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was for the rifle. Perhaps he had some pistol -ammunition there, but I would not know the difference. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you observe how much ammunition he had at any time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He had a box of about the size of this. - -Mr. RANKIN. Could you give us a little description of how you indicated -the box? Was it 2 or 3 inches wide? - -Mrs. OSWALD. About the size here on the pad. - -Mr. RANKIN. About 3 inches wide and 6 inches long? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Probably. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, do you recall that you said to your husband at any -time that he was just studying Marxism so he could get attention? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. In order to cause him not to be so involved in some of -these ideas, did you laugh at some of his ideas that he told you about, -and make fun of him? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Of course. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he react to that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He became very angry. - -Mr. RANKIN. And did he ask you at one time, or sometimes, not to make -fun of his ideas? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, returning to the period in Russia, while your husband -was courting you, did you talk to him, he talk to you, about his -childhood? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, not very much. Only in connection with photographs, -where he was a boy in New York, in the zoo. Then in the Army--there is -a snapshot taken right after he joined the Army. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you about anything he resented about his -childhood? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He said it was hard for him during his childhood, when he -was a boy, because there was a great age difference between him and -Robert, and Robert was in some sort of a private school. He also wanted -to have a chance to study, but his mother was working, and he couldn't -get into a private school, and he was very sorry about it. - -Mr. RANKIN. In talking about that, did he indicate a feeling that he -had not had as good an opportunity as his brother Robert? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. When he talked about his service in the Marines, did he -tell you much about what he did? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't talk much about it, because there wasn't very -much there of interest to me. But he was satisfied. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he indicate that he was unhappy about his service with -the Marines? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, he had good memories of his service in the Army. He -said that the food was good and that sometimes evenings he had a chance -to go out. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about his mother during this period of -time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This was before we were married. I had once asked Lee -whether he had a mother, and he said he had no mother. I started to -question him as to what had happened, what happened to her, and he said -that I should not question him about it. - -After we were married, he told me that he had not told me the truth, -that he did have a mother, but that he didn't love her very much. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you why he didn't love her? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall anything more he said about his brother -Robert at that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he had a good wife, that he had succeeded -fairly well in life, that he was smart and capable. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about having any affection for him? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he loved Robert. He said that when Robert married -Vada that his mother had been against the marriage and that she had -made a scene, and this was one of the reasons he didn't like his mother. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about his half brother, by the name of -Pic--I guess the last name was Pic--Robert Pic? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he had a half brother by the name of Pic from -his mother's first marriage, but he didn't enlarge upon the subject. It -is only that I knew he had a half brother by that name. - -He said that at one time they lived with this John Pic and his wife, -but that his wife and the mother frequently had arguments, quarrels. He -said it was hard for him to witness these scenes, it was unpleasant. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you regard your husband's wage or salary at Minsk as -high for the work he was doing? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. He received as much as the others in similar jobs. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband have friends in Minsk when you first met -him? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did he seem to get along with these friends? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He had a very good relationship with them. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he discuss any of them with you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us when you married your husband? - -Mrs. OSWALD. April 30, 1961. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was there a marriage ceremony? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Not in a church, of course. But in the institution called -Zags, where we were registered. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was anyone else present at the ceremony? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, our friends were there. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who else was there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No one besides my girlfriends and some acquaintances. My -uncle and aunt were busy preparing the house, and they were not there -for that reason. - -Mr. RANKIN. After you were married did you go to live in your husband's -apartment there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you buy any new furniture? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. When was your baby born? - -Mrs. OSWALD. February 15, 1962. - -Mr. RANKIN. What is her name? - -Mrs. OSWALD. June Lee Oswald. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you stop working before the birth of the baby? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you return to work after the baby was born? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did you and your husband get along during the period -that you were in Minsk, after you were married? - -Mrs. OSWALD. We lived well. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were you a member of the trade union at Minsk? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a membership booklet? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, a booklet. - -Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 21 and ask you if that is the trade -union booklet that you had there. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I never have a good photograph. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 21. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted and take the next number. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 21 and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you pay dues to the trade union? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. We didn't notice any notation of dues payments in this -booklet, Exhibit 21. Do you know why that was? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I forgot to paste the stamps in. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is for the period between 1956 and 1959, they don't -seem to be in there. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. But you made the payments--you just didn't put the stamps -in, is that right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Simply because this is not important. I got the -stamps, but the stubs remained with the person to whom I made the -payment. - -Mr. RANKIN. We noted that the book shows a birth date of 1940 rather -than 1941. Do you know how that happened? - -Mrs. OSWALD. The girl who prepared this booklet thought that I was -older and put down 1940 instead of 1941. - -Mr. RANKIN. The booklet doesn't seem to show any registration in Minsk. -Do you know why that would occur? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Because the booklet was issued in Leningrad. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is it the practice to record a registration in a city that -you move to, or isn't that a practice that is followed? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband engage in any Communist Party activities -while he was in the Soviet Union? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Not at all--absolutely not. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he was a member of any organization -there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think that he was also a member of a trade union, as -everybody who works belongs to a trade union. Then he had a card from a -hunting club, but he never visited it. He joined the club, apparently. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he go hunting while he was there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. We only went once, with him and with my friends. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was that when he went hunting for squirrels? - -Mrs. OSWALD. If he marked it down in his notebook that he went hunting -for squirrels, he never did. Generally they wanted to kill a squirrel -when we went there, or some sort of a bird, in order to boast about it, -but they didn't. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were there any times while he was in the Soviet Union after -your marriage that you didn't know where he went? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. When did you first learn that he was planning to try to go -back to the United States? - -Mrs. OSWALD. After we were married, perhaps a month after. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss the matter at that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. We didn't discuss it--we talked about it--because we -didn't make any specific plans. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what you said about it then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I said, "Well, if we will go, we will go. If we remain, it -doesn't make any difference to me. If we go to China, I will also go." - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you and your husband make a trip to Moscow in -connection with your plans to go to the United States? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. We went to the American Embassy. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband make a trip to Moscow alone before that? -About his passport? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't go alone. He actually left a day early and the -following morning I was to come there. - -Mr. RANKIN. I understood that he didn't get any permission to make this -trip to Moscow away from Minsk. Do you know whether that is true? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know about this. I know that he bought a ticket -and he made the flight. - -Mr. RANKIN. According to the practice, then, would he be permitted to -go to Moscow from Minsk without the permission of the authorities? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know whether he had the right to go to Moscow. -Perhaps he did, because he had a letter requesting him to visit the -Embassy. But he could not go to another city without permission of the -authorities. - -Mr. RANKIN. When the decision was made to come to the United States, -did you discuss that with your family? - -Mrs. OSWALD. First when we made the decision, we didn't know what would -come of it later, what would happen further. And Lee asked me not to -talk about it for the time being. - -Mr. RANKIN. Later, did you discuss it with your family? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Later when I went to visit the Embassy, my aunt found out -about it, because they had telephoned from work, and she was offended -because I had not told her about it. They were against our plan. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell your friends about your plans after you were -trying to arrange to go to the United States? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was there some opposition by people in the Soviet Union to -your going to the United States? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Somewhat. You can't really call that opposition. There -were difficult times. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what you mean by that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. First, the fact that I was excluded from the Komsomol. -This was not a blow for me, but it was, of course, unpleasant. Then -all kinds of meetings were arranged and members of the various -organizations talked to me. My aunt and uncle would not talk to me for -a long time. - -Mr. RANKIN. And that was all because you were planning to go to the -United States? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were you hospitalized and received medical treatment -because of all of these things that happened at that time, about your -leaving? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -What? - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any nervous disorder in 1961 that you were -hospitalized for? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I was nervous, but I didn't go to the hospital. I am -nervous now, too. - -Mr. RANKIN. Then you went to Kharkov on a vacation, didn't you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -If you have a record of the fact that I was in the hospital, yes, I -was. But I was in the hospital only as a precaution because I was -pregnant. I have a negative Rh factor, blood Rh factor, and if Lee had -a positive they thought--they thought that he had positive--even though -he doesn't. It turned out that we both had the same Rh factor. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you receive a promotion about this time in the work you -were doing? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, no one gets promoted. You work for 10 years as an -assistant. All the assistants were on the same level. There were no -sub-managers, except for the manager who was in charge of the pharmacy. - -Mr. RANKIN. What I am asking is your becoming an assistant druggist. -Was that something different? - -Mrs. OSWALD. At first I was--I have to call it--an analyst. My job was -to check prescriptions that had been prepared. There was no vacancy for -an assistant, pharmacy assistant at first. But then I liked the work of -a pharmacist's assistant better, and I changed to that. - -Mr. RANKIN. I will hand you Exhibit 22 and ask you if that is a book -that shows that you were promoted or became an assistant druggist. - -Mrs. OSWALD. The entry here said, "Hired as chemist analyst of the -pharmacy." - -The next entry says, "Transferred to the job of pharmacy assistant." - -These are simply different types of work. But one is not any higher -than the other--not because one is a type of management and the other -is not. If someone prepared a prescription and I checked it, that was -no different from the other work. There is a difference, of course, but -not in the sense of a grade of service. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 22. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted and take the next number. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 22, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I ask leave at this time to substitute -photostatic copies of any documentary evidence offered, and photographs -of any physical evidence, with the understanding that the originals -will be held subject to the further order of the Commission. - -The CHAIRMAN. Very well. That may be done. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were you aware of your husband's concern about being -prosecuted with regard to his returning to the United States? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he told me about it. He told me about it, that -perhaps he might even be arrested. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was he fearful of prosecution by the Soviet Union or by the -United States? - -Mrs. OSWALD. The United States. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any time that the Soviet authorities visited -your husband while you were trying to go to the United States? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. What was the occasion for your traveling to Kharkov in 1961? - -Mrs. OSWALD. My mother's sister lives there, and she had invited me to -come there for a rest because I was on vacation. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone go with you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. How long did you stay? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Three weeks, I think. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you write to your husband while you were gone? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was your aunt's name Mikhilova? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Mikhilova, yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was there any reason why you took this vacation alone and -not with your husband? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He was working at that time. He didn't have a vacation. He -wanted to go with me, but he could not. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what delayed your departure to the United -States? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. There was some correspondence with the Embassy about your -husband returning alone. Did you ever discuss that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about that, and what did you say? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He said that if he did go alone, he feared that they would -not permit me to leave, and that he would, therefore, wait for me. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you say? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I thanked him for the fact that he wanted to wait for me. - -Mr. RANKIN. Where did you stay in Moscow when you went there about your -visa? - -Mrs. OSWALD. At first, we stopped at the Hotel Ostamkino. And then we -moved to the Hotel Berlin, formerly Savoy. - -Mr. RANKIN. How long were you there on that trip? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think about 10 days, perhaps a little longer. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever have any status in the armed forces of the -Soviet Union? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. But all medical workers, military, are obligated--all -medical workers have a military obligation. In the event of a war, we -would be in first place. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever learn from your husband how he paid his -expenses in Moscow for the period prior to the time you went to Minsk? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 23 and ask you if that is a booklet that -records your military status. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't work. It is simply that I was obligated. There is -an indication there "non-Party member". - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 23. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be received. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 23, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. As I understand you, you did not serve in the armed forces -of the Soviet Union, but because of your ability as a pharmacist, you -were obligated, if the call was ever extended to you, is that right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is correct. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know any reason why your husband was permitted to -stay in the Soviet Union when he first came there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. Many were surprised at that--here and in Russia. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why he went to Minsk, or was allowed to go to -Minsk? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He was sent to Minsk. - -Mr. RANKIN. By that, you mean by direction of the government? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband do any writing while he was in the Soviet -Union that you know of? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he wrote a diary about his stay in the Soviet Union. - -Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 24 and ask you if that is a photostatic -copy of the diary that you have just referred to. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is Lee's handwriting. It is a pity that I don't -understand it. - -Is that all? It seems to me there was more. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, that is all of the historic diary that we -have received. There are some other materials that I will call your -attention to, but apparently they are not part of that. - -I offer in evidence Exhibit 24. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted and take the next number. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 24, and -received in evidence.) - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is all that only has reference to this? Or is that -everything that Lee had written? - -Mr. RANKIN. No, it is not all that he ever wrote, but it is all that -apparently fits together as a part of the descriptive diary in regard -to the time he was in Russia. - -Do you know when your husband made Exhibit 24, as compared with doing -it daily or from time to time--how it was made? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Sometimes two or three days in a row. Sometimes he would -not write at all. In accordance with the way he felt about it. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, you said a few moments ago it was a pity -that you could not read this. Would you like to have the interpreter -read it to you later, so you will know what is in it? - -You may, if you wish. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Some other time, later, when I know English myself perhaps. - -The CHAIRMAN. You may see it any time you wish. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I just heard Mr. Thorne ask if there was any -reason why they could not have photocopies of the exhibits. I know no -reason. - -The CHAIRMAN. No, there is no reason why you cannot. You may have it. - -Mr. THORNE. Thank you. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald has raised the question about whether this was -complete. And this was all that was given us, as Exhibit 24, but we are -going to check back on it to determine whether there was anything that -may have been overlooked by the Bureau when they gave it to us. - -Mrs. Oswald, your husband apparently made another diary that he wrote -on some paper of the Holland America Line. Are you familiar with that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. I will hand you Exhibit 25 and ask you if you recall having -seen that. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I know this paper, but I didn't know what was contained in -it. I didn't know this was a diary. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what it was? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Possibly I misdescribed it, Mrs. Oswald. It may be more -accurately described as a story of his experiences in the Soviet Union. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know even when he wrote this, whether this was -aboard the ship or after we came to the United States. I only know the -paper itself and the handwriting. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether it is your husband's handwriting? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 25. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 25, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall how much money you and your husband had in -savings when you left Moscow for the United States? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know, because Lee did not tell me how much -money he had, because he knew that if he would tell me I would spend -everything. But I think that we might have had somewhere about 300 -rubles, or somewhat more, 350 perhaps. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did you travel from Moscow to the United States? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I told you--from Moscow by train, through Poland, Germany, -and Holland, and from Holland by boat to New York. From New York to -Dallas by air. - -Mr. RANKIN. I think you told us by another ship from Holland. I wonder -if it wasn't the SS _Maasdam_. Does that refresh your memory? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps. I probably am mixed up in the names because it is -a strange name. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that you exchanged United States money for -Polish money during this trip? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, in Warsaw, on the black market. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you buy food there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Some good Polish beer and a lot of candy. - -By the way, we got an awful lot for one dollar, they were so happy to -get it. More than the official rate. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband drink then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. He doesn't drink beer, he doesn't drink anything, he -doesn't like beer. I drank the beer. I don't like wine, by the way. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that you or your husband were contacted at -any time in the Soviet Union by Soviet Intelligence people? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. During the time your husband was in the Soviet Union, did -you observe any indication of mental disorder? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did he appear to get along with people that he knew in -the Soviet Union? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Very well. At least, he had friends there. He didn't have -any here. - -Mr. RANKIN. How much time did you spend in Amsterdam on the way to the -United States? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Two or three days, it seems to me. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you do there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Walked around the city, did some sightseeing. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did anybody visit you there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you visit anyone? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. What hotel did you stay in? - -Mrs. OSWALD. We didn't stop at a hotel. We stopped at a place where -they rent apartments. The address was given to us in the American -Embassy. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what you paid in the way of rent? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, Lee paid it. I don't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did your husband spend his time when he was aboard the -ship? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I was somewhat upset because he was a little ashamed to -walk around with me, because I wasn't dressed as well as the other -girls. Basically, I stayed in my cabin while Lee went to the movies and -they have different games there. I don't know what he did there. - -Mr. RANKIN. In Exhibit 25, the notations on the Holland American Line -stationery, your husband apparently made some political observations. -Did he discuss these with you while he was on the trip? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, it is time for a recess. - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes. We will take a recess now. - -(Brief recess.) - -The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. - -We will continue. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, can you tell us what your husband was reading -in the Soviet Union after you were married, that you recall? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He read the Daily Worker newspaper in the English language. - -Mr. RANKIN. Anything else? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me something like Marxism, Leninism, also in -the English language. He did not have any choice of English books for -reading purposes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was he reading anything in Russian at that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, newspapers, and nothing else. - -Mr. RANKIN. No library books? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. It was very hard for him. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he go to any schools while he was in the Soviet Union -that you know of? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 26 and ask you if you can tell us what -that is. - -Mrs. OSWALD. The title of this document is shown here, "Information for -those who are departing for abroad. Personal data--name, last name, -date of birth, place of birth, height, color of eyes and hair, married -or not, and purpose of the trip." - -Mr. RANKIN. What does it say about the purpose of the trip--do you -recall? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Private exit. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what members of your family are referred to -there under that question? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It shows here "none." I think before this was filled -out--this was before June's birth. - -Mr. RANKIN. That doesn't refer then to members of your family, like -your uncles or aunts, or anything like that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence Exhibit 26. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 26, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, I hand you Exhibit 27 and ask you if you can recall -what that is. - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is a questionnaire which has to be filled out prior -to departure for abroad. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 27. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 27, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what relatives you referred to when they -asked for close relatives? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It must be shown there. I don't remember. Probably my -uncle. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, can you tell us the handwriting on this -exhibit, No. 27? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is my handwriting. - -Mr. RANKIN. You say it is all your handwriting? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, can you tell us what Exhibit 28 is? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is the same thing. This was a draft. - -Mr. RANKIN. You mean a rough draft? - -Mrs. OSWALD. A rough draft of the same thing. - -Mr. RANKIN. And the other one is the final? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. Perhaps there were several drafts, I don't -know whether this is from the Embassy or from some other source. These -are drafts, because the original would have had to have my photograph. -Lee and I were playing. - -Mr. RANKIN. Then, Mrs. Oswald, you think both Exhibit 27 and 28 are -drafts, since neither one has your photograph on them? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. We were playing dominoes, and this is the score. - -Mr. RANKIN. I ask that Exhibit 28 be received in evidence, Mr. Chairman. - -The CHAIRMAN. It will be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 28, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit 29 and ask you if you can tell us what -that is? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is a residence permit, passport--a passport for -abroad. This is a foreign passport for Russians who go abroad. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you understand that you had six months in which to -leave under that passport? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. This all has to be filled out before you are allowed -to go abroad. - -Mr. RANKIN. Whose handwriting is in Exhibit 29? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know who wrote that. It is not I. Officials who -issue the passport. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 29. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 29, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know any reason why the passport was made valid -until January 11, 1964? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Because the passport which I turned in and for which I -received this one in exchange was valid until 1964. - -Mr. RANKIN. You had a passport prior to this one, then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Had you obtained that before you were married? - -Mrs. OSWALD. All citizens of the U.S.S.R. 16 and over must have a -passport. It would be good if everyone had a passport here. It would -help the Government more. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, you have told us considerably about your -husband's unhappiness with the United States and his idea that things -would be much better in Cuba, if he could get there. Do you recall that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what he said about what he didn't like about -the United States? - -Mrs. OSWALD. The problem of unemployment. - -Mr. RANKIN. Anything else? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I already said what he didn't like--that it was hard to -get an education, that medical care is very expensive. About his -political dissatisfaction, he didn't speak to me. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever say anything against the leaders of the -government here? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, that is all we have now except the physical -exhibits, and I think we could do that at 2 o'clock. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, we are going to recess now until 2 o'clock. -You must be quite tired by now. And this afternoon we are going to -introduce some of the physical objects that are essential to make up -our record. - -When we finish with those, I think your testimony will be completed. - -And I think we should finish today. - -You won't be unhappy about that, will you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. Thank you. - -The CHAIRMAN. 2 o'clock this afternoon. - -(Whereupon, at 11:35 a.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -Afternoon Session - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED - - -The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m. - -The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Mr. Rankin, you may -continue. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I understand that Mrs. Oswald has examined a -considerable volume of correspondence during the recess. In order to be -helpful, she has identified it, and she is able to tell, through her -counsel, by a number for each exhibit, who the letter was to or from as -the case may be. - -And, after I offer the exhibits, or as part of the offer, I will ask -Mr. Thorne if he will tell the description of the recipient and the -writer of the letter in the various cases. These exhibits are Exhibits -30 through 65, inclusive. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 30 is a telegram from a former fiance's mother. - -Exhibit No. 31 is a letter from her friend who studied with her, by the -name of Ella Soboleva. - -Exhibit No. 32 is a letter from the Ziger family, who are friends. - -Exhibit No. 33 is another letter from Alexander Ziger. A friend of the -family's. - -Exhibit No. 34 is a letter concerning departure to the United States -by Marina and her husband. She doesn't know who sent the letter or who -received it. It is merely some material that she has. - -Exhibit No. 35 is an envelope from a friend which contained a letter -which is not shown. - -Exhibit No. 36 is a letter from a former fiance's mother, the same one -that sent the telegram, and Exhibit No. 30. - -Exhibit No. 37 is a letter from Marina to Lee while she was in the -hospital, during the birth of June Lee. - -Exhibit No. 38 is a letter from Olga Dmovskaya, a friend. - -Mr. RANKIN. When you say fiance, do you mean she was engaged to someone -else? - -Mr. THORNE. This is what I understand--prior to her relationship to Lee. - -Exhibit No. 39 is another letter from Ella Soboleva. - -Exhibit No. 40 is a letter from Lee Harvey to Marina while she was in -the hospital with June Lee, during the birth of the baby. - -Exhibit No. 41 is a letter from her Aunt Valya. - -Exhibit No. 42 is a letter from their friend Pavel. - -Exhibit No. 43 is the start of a letter by Marina which was never -finished. - -Exhibit No. 44 is the start of a letter by Marina which was never -finished. - -Exhibit No. 45 is a letter from Olga Dmovskaya, the same person who -sent a letter in Exhibit No. 38. - -Exhibit No. 46 is a letter--is another letter from Aunt Valya. - -Exhibit No. 47 is a letter from a friend by the name of Tolya. - -Exhibit No. 48 is an address of one of Marina's friends. - -Exhibit No. 49 is Marina's draft of a letter to the consulate. - -May I see Exhibit 49? I am trying to clear up a point. - -Mr. DULLES. What is the date of that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is not a letter. That is an autobiography. - -Mr. THORNE. Yes, that is correct. It is the draft of an autobiography -for the Russian Consulate. - -Exhibit No. 50 is a letter from a friend Erick Titovetz. - -Exhibit No. 51 is another letter from Aunt Valya. - -Exhibit No. 52 is a letter received by Marina while she was in the -hospital with June Lee. - -Exhibit No. 53 is Lee Harvey Oswald's writing. - -Exhibit No. 54 is a letter from a friend, Laliya. - -Exhibit No. 55 is a letter from Lee Harvey Oswald to Marina while she -was in Kharkov. - -Exhibit No. 56 is the same. - -Exhibit No. 57 is a letter from Aunt Valya. - -Exhibit No. 58 is a letter from Lee Harvey Oswald to Marina while she -was in the hospital with June Lee. - -Exhibit No. 59 is the same. - -Exhibit No. 60 is the same. - -Exhibit No. 61 is the same. - -Exhibit No. 62 is a letter from Anna Meller, who lives in Dallas, to -Marina. - -Exhibit No. 63 is a letter from Lee Harvey Oswald to Marina while she -was in the hospital, giving birth to June Lee. - -Exhibit No. 64 is a letter from Lee Harvey Oswald--is a letter to Lee -from Erick Titovetz. - -Exhibit No. 65 is the second page of Exhibit No. 62. That completes the -exhibits. - -Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibits 30 through 65, inclusive. - -The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted and take the appropriate numbers. - -(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 30 -through 65, inclusive, and received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, you remember I asked you about the diary that -your husband kept. You said that he completed it in Russia before he -came to this country, do you remember that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not the entries that he made in that -diary were made each day as the events occurred? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, not each day. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were they noted shortly after the time they occurred? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Not all events. What happened in Moscow I don't think that -Lee wrote that in Moscow. - -Mr. RANKIN. What about the entries concerning what happened in Minsk? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He wrote this while he was working. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you think those entries were made close to the time -that the events occurred? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. As I understand you, you think that the entries concerning -the time he was in Moscow before he went to Minsk were entered some -time while he was in Minsk, is that right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think so, but I don't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why your husband was sent to Minsk to work and -live after he came to the Soviet Union, instead of some other city? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He was sent there because this is a young and developing -city where there are many industrial enterprises which needed -personnel. It is an old, a very old city. But after the war, it -had been almost completely built anew, because everything has been -destroyed. It was easier in the sense of living space in Minsk--it was -easier to secure living space. Many immigrants are sent to Minsk. There -are many immigrants there now. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were there many Americans there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Americans? No. But from South America, from Argentina, we -knew many. Many Argentinians live there--comparatively many. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband say much about the time he was in Moscow -before he went to Minsk and what he did there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He didn't tell me particularly much about it, but he said -that he walked in Moscow a great deal, that he had visited museums, -that he liked Moscow better than Minsk, and that he would have liked to -live in Moscow. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about having been on the radio or -television at Moscow? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he was on the radio. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you anything about any ceremonies for him when -he asked for Soviet citizenship? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. When he was not granted Soviet citizenship, did he say -anything about the Soviet Government or his reaction towards their -failure to give him citizenship? - -Mrs. OSWALD. When I read the diary, I concluded from the diary that Lee -wanted to become a citizen of the Soviet Union and that he had been -refused, but after we were married we talked on that subject and he -said it was good that he had refused to accept citizenship. Therefore, -I had always thought that Lee had been offered citizenship--but that he -didn't want it. - -Mr. RANKIN. What diary are you referring to that you read? - -Mrs. OSWALD. The diary about which we talked here previously--in the -preceding session. - -Mr. RANKIN. The one that was completed in Russia that you referred to? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And when did you first read that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I had never read it, because I didn't understand English. -But when I was questioned by the FBI, they read me excerpts from that -diary. - -Mr. RANKIN. And that was after the assassination? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. When you and Lee Oswald decided to get married, was there a -period of time you had to wait before it could be official? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you file an application and then have a period to wait? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. How long was that period of waiting? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Ten days. - -Mr. RANKIN. After it was known in Minsk that you were to marry this -American, did any officials come to you and talk to you about the -marriage? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, we have Exhibits 66 through 91 that we are -going to ask your counsel to show to you, and after you have looked at -them and are satisfied that you can identify them, then we will ask you -to comment on them. - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is from Lee when I was in the hospital. - -Mr. RANKIN. What exhibit is that? - -Mr. THORNE. These are all part of Exhibit 66. They are various -miscellaneous pieces of writing involved in this particular exhibit. - -Mrs. OSWALD. It was not in June that I was in the hospital. He didn't -know that I was in the hospital. - -Mr. RANKIN. By "he" do you mean your husband Lee Oswald? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And when did he not know that you were in the hospital? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Because I was going to work when I began to feel ill, and -I was taken to the hospital. - -Mr. RANKIN. And what time was that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. In the morning, about 10 a.m. - -Mr. RANKIN. I mean about what day or month or year? - -Mrs. OSWALD. September 1961. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is that before you went to Kharkov? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And we have already discussed, or I have asked you about -that time you were in the hospital. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I was there twice. - -Mr. RANKIN. By twice, you mean this time you have described before you -went to Kharkov and the other time when you had the baby? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is a letter from Inesse Yakhliel. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 67? - -Mr. THORNE. No, sir, these are all part of Exhibit 66. - -Mr. DULLES. I wonder if these should not be marked in some way, because -you won't be able to find out what they are in the future--A, B, C, D, -or something of this kind. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Redlich, will you mark those as 66-A, B, C, and D, or -however they run? - -Mr. Thorne, when you say the first one marked "A", will you make it -clear what that is? - -Mr. THORNE. The exhibit marked "A"--let me hasten to point out that -all of these pieces of paper have a mark "159R". We are denoting -individually these papers by starting with A, B, C, and so on. - -"A" represents the first piece of paper that was identified earlier in -this testimony by Mrs. Oswald, referring again specifically to Exhibit -66, which is composed of many such pieces of paper. - -Exhibit B was the second piece of paper that was identified by Mrs. -Oswald. - -I believe this is the third. - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is a letter from Inessa Yakhliel. - -Mr. THORNE. This will be identified as C. - -Mrs. OSWALD. The envelope of a letter that Lee wrote me, to Kharkov. - -Mr. THORNE. That is identified as Exhibit D. - -Mrs. OSWALD. From Inessa Yakhliel. - -Mr. THORNE. This is identified as Exhibit E. - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is from Inessa Yakhliel. - -Mr. THORNE. This is identified as Exhibit F. - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is from Lee. - -Mr. THORNE. Identified as Exhibit G. - -Mrs. OSWALD. From my Aunt Luba. - -Mr. THORNE. This is identified as Exhibit H. - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is a letter from Lee. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit I. - -Now, so there is no confusion, let's state again that these are -sub-exhibits, letters, and marked 159, from A through I, all part of -Exhibit 66. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I would like to obtain these letters, to preserve them. I -don't mean now. - -The CHAIRMAN. She may see and have copies of any of the letters she -desires connected with her testimony. - -Mr. THORNE. This is Exhibit 67. - -Mrs. OSWALD. A photograph of Galiya Khontooleva. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 68. Exhibit 68 is two postcards, and they probably -need to be identified as A and B. - -Let's identify A. - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is a letter from Lee from New Orleans to Irving--to -the home of Mrs. Paine. - -And this is a letter from the mother, Lee's mother. - -Mr. THORNE. This will be identified as Exhibit 68-B. Exhibit 69 is -composed of two postcards. Exhibit 69-A---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is from Lee, from New Orleans, addressed to me, when -I lived with Ruth Paine. - -Mr. THORNE. And Exhibit 69-B? - -Mrs. OSWALD. A letter from a girl friend from Russia, Ludmila Larionova. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 70, a postcard. - -Mrs. OSWALD. From my grandmother, from the mother of my stepfather. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 71. Two envelopes. 71-A---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. From Pavel Golovachev, addressed to the address of Ruth -Paine. And this is an envelope from Ruth Paine. - -Mr. THORNE. That is Exhibit B. - -Mrs. OSWALD. A letter to me. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 72 is a writing. In Russian. - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is a reply to Lee's letter about the fact that he -wanted to study at the University of Peoples Friendship, and he was -refused. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 73 contains two pieces of paper. 73-A is identified -as---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is from the time that June was a little baby, a -certificate of the fact that she was vaccinated for smallpox. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit B? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is Anna Meller's address and telephone number. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 74? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is Lee's library card of the State Library. I think -in Moscow--the State Library. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 75 contains a writing and an envelope. - -Mrs. OSWALD. A letter from Galiya Khontooleva, and an envelope. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 76 contains three pages of writing, together with -an envelope. - -Mrs. OSWALD. This was when Lee and I visited his brother in a city in -Alabama, he is studying to be a clergyman. There we met a young man who -was studying Russian, and he wrote me this letter. - -These are all his letters. - -Mr. THORNE. This is three pages of one letter together with the -envelope. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 77 contains an envelope and two written pages--two -separate pages of writing. - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is from Galiya Khontooleva, and the envelope. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 78 contains an envelope and two handwritten pages -of writing. - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is a letter from Ruth Paine to New Orleans. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 79 contains an envelope and one page of writing. - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is a letter from Pavel Golovachev, from Minsk. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 80, two handwritten pages. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I was forced by the FBI to write an account of how much -money I had received through them. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 81 contains one page of writing. - -Mrs. OSWALD. The same. - -Mr. THORNE. By the same, you mean what? - -Mrs. OSWALD. A receipt for the receipt of money through the FBI. - -Mr. THORNE. Are these donations? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 82 contains a page in handwriting. - -Mrs. OSWALD. A letter from Ruth. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 83 is a photograph. - -Mrs. OSWALD. The son of Ludmila Larionova. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 84 contains an envelope. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Simply an envelope. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 85 contains an envelope. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Lee wrote to me in Kharkov. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 86 contains an envelope. - -Mrs. OSWALD. From Titovetz, a letter from the Soviet Union. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 87 contains an envelope. - -Mrs. OSWALD. From Pavel Golovachev. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 88 contains an envelope and one page of writing. - -Mrs. OSWALD. A letter from Ella Soboleva. - -Mr. THORNE. And the letter arrived in the envelope? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 89 contains one sheet of writing. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Also from Soboleva. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 90. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think from Ruth. - -Mr. THORNE. This contains several pages--several sheets--three sheets -which seem to be one continuous letter. - -Mrs. OSWALD. A letter from Ruth Paine. - -Mr. THORNE. A three-page letter. Exhibit No. 91 contains an envelope. - -Mrs. OSWALD. From Erick Titovetz. - -Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibits 66 through 91, inclusive. - -The CHAIRMAN. You have looked over all these, have you, Mr. Thorne, and -your client has identified them? - -Mr. THORNE. Yes, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted. - -(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 66 -through 91, inclusive, and received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, we will show you photostatic copies of various -writings of your husband. As you look at them, would you tell us what -each one is, insofar as you recognize them, please? - -Mr. THORNE. This is Exhibit 92, which is a writing, a photocopy of a -writing. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recognize that exhibit, Mrs. Oswald? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Lee's handwriting. But I have never seen this. More -correctly, I have seen it, but I have never read it. - -Mr. RANKIN. So you don't know what it purports to be, I take it. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is, you do not? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. But you do recognize his handwriting throughout? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. THORNE. May I point out to the Commission, please, this is in -English. This is handwritten in English and it is typewritten in -English. - -Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 92. - -The CHAIRMAN. It will be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 92, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. I should like to inform the Commission that Exhibit 92 -purports to be the book that Lee Oswald wrote about conditions in the -Soviet Union. - -The CHAIRMAN. The one that was dictated to the stenographer? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes, that is right. - -Mr. REDLICH. He had had written notes, and she transcribed them. - -Mr. THORNE. The next exhibit is Exhibit No. 93, many pages, -handwritten, in English. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, will you tell us what that is, if you know. - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether it is in the handwriting of your -husband? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, this is Lee's handwriting. These are all his papers. -I don't know about them. Everything is in English. I don't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 93. - -The CHAIRMAN. Exhibit 93 may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 93, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. I should like to advise the Commission that this Exhibit -93 purports to be a résumé of his Marine Corps experience, and some -additional minor notes. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 94 is photocopies of many pages of handwriting, -which is in English. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what that is. It is Lee's handwriting. - -Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 94. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 94, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. DULLES. Do we know what that is? - -Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 94 consists of handwritten pages on which the book -about Russia, Exhibit 92, was typewritten. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 95 is a photocopy of many pages of typewriting, -typewritten words, which are in English. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I also don't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I will ask you, on Exhibit 95, can you -identify the handwriting on that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It is Lee's handwriting. - -Mr. RANKIN. And did you ever see the pages of that Exhibit 95 as a part -of his papers and records? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. Perhaps I saw them, but I don't remember them. - -Mr. RANKIN. But you know it is his handwriting, where the handwriting -appears? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 95. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 95, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 96 is a photocopy of two pages that are handwritten -and in English. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I also don't know what that is. For me, that is a dark -forest, a heap of papers. - -Mr. RANKIN. With regard to Exhibit 95 that has been received in -evidence, I should like to inform the Commission that that is also -material concerning the book, regarding conditions in Russia. - -Mrs. Oswald, will you tell us with regard to Exhibit 96--do you -recognize the handwriting on those pages? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is all Lee's handwriting. - -Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 96. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 96, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 96 purports to be notes for a speech or article, on -"The New Era." - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 97 is a photocopy of several pages, both printed -and in writing, handwriting. - -Mrs. OSWALD. It is amazing that Lee had written so well. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recognize the handwriting? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I do. - -Mr. THORNE. This is also in English. - -Mrs. Oswald, you state he had written so well. By that you mean what? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Neatly. And legibly. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 97. - -The CHAIRMAN. Exhibit 97 may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 97, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 98 is three photocopy pages of handwriting in -English. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what that is. - -Mr. THORNE. Do you recognize the handwriting? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is Lee's handwriting. - -Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 97 appears to be a critique on the Communist Party -in the United States by Lee Oswald. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 98. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 98, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 98 purports to be notes for a speech. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 99 is one photocopy page of handwriting in English. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what that is. - -Mr. THORNE. Is this Lee's handwriting? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 99. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 99, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 100 purports to be four pages, photocopy pages, -of handwriting, in English. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Lee's handwriting. But what it is, I don't know. I am -sorry, but I don't know what it is. - -Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 100. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 100, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. I wish to inform the Commission that this purports to be -answers to questionnaires, and shows two formats, one showing that he -is loyal to the country and another that he is not so loyal. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 101 is a photocopy of one page which is printed and -handwritten in English. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Lee's handwriting. But what it is, I don't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 101. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 101, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. This purports to be a portion of the diary and relates to -his meeting at the Embassy on October 31, 1959. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 102 is photocopies of two pages, handwritten, in -English. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Lee's handwriting. I don't know what it is. - -Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 102. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 102, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. I wish to call the Commission's attention to the fact that -Exhibit 102 purports to be a draft of memoranda, at least, for a speech. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 103 is two pages, two photocopy pages, of -handwriting, in English. - -Mrs. OSWALD. From the address I see that it is a letter--it is Lee's -letter, but to whom, I don't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 103. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted under that number. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 103, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. I wish to call the attention of the Commission to the -fact that Exhibit 103 is a purported draft of the letter that Lee -Oswald sent to the Embassy, the Soviet Embassy, which you will recall -referred to the fact that his wife was asked by the FBI to defect--had -such language in the latter part of it. This draft shows that in this -earlier draft he used different language, and decided upon the language -that he finally sent in the exhibit that is in the record earlier. The -comparison is most illuminating. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 104 is photocopy pages of a small notebook. - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is my notebook, various addresses--when I was at the -rest home, I simply noted down the addresses of some acquaintances. - -Mr. DULLES. Is this in Russia, or the United States? - -Mrs. OSWALD. In Russia. - -Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 104. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 104, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 105 is a notebook---- - -Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 104 purports to be a small notebook of Mrs. Oswald. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 105 is the original of a notebook containing -various writings in English and in Russian. - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is when Lee was getting ready to go to Russia, and he -made a list of the things that he wanted to buy and take with him. - -Further, I don't know what he had written in there. - -Mr. DULLES. Was this the time he went or the time he didn't go? - -Mrs. OSWALD. When he didn't--when he intended to. - -Mr. RANKIN. In Exhibit 105, Mrs. Oswald, I will ask you if you noted -that your husband had listed in that "Gun and case, Price 24 REC. 17." - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what that is. Unfortunately, I cannot help. I -don't know what this means. - -Mr. RANKIN. But you do observe the item in the list in that booklet, do -you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Now I see it. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 105. - -The CHAIRMAN. That will be received. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 105, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. With regard to Exhibit 102, I should like to inform the -Commission that as a part of this transcribed record, as soon as we can -complete it, we will have photostatic copies of these various exhibits -for you, along with photographs of the physical material. But I think -you will want to examine some of it very closely. - -I call your particular attention to this draft of a proposed speech. -One of the items, No. 1, states, "Americans are apt to scoff at the -idea that a military coup in the U.S. as so often happens in Latin -American countries, could ever replace our government. But that is an -idea that has grounds for consideration. Which military organization -has the potentialities of exciting such action? Is it the Army? With -its many conscripts, its unwieldy size, its score of bases scattered -across the world? The case of General Walker shows that the Army at -least is not fertile enough ground for a far-right regime to go a very -long way, for the size, reasons of size, and disposition." - -Then there is an insert I have difficulty in reading. - -"Which service, then, can qualify to launch a coup in the U.S.A.? Small -size, a permanent hard core of officers and few bases as necessary. -Only one outfit fits that description, and the U.S. Marine Corps is a -rightwing-infiltrated organization of dire potential consequences to -the freedom of the United States. I agree with former President Truman -when he said that 'The Marine Corps should be abolished.'" - -That indicates some of his thinking. - -The CHAIRMAN. We will just take a short break. - -(Brief recess.) - -The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 106 for identification is a notebook. - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is my book, some poems by ---- - -Mr. THORNE. It contains handwriting in Russian. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did you happen to write that, Mrs. Oswald? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I simply liked these verses. I did not have a book of -poems. And I made a copy. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 106. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 106, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 107 contains a small piece of cardboard with some -writing in Russian on it. - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is Lee's pass from the factory. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 107. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 107, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 108 is an original one sheet of paper, with -handwriting in ink, in Russian, on one page. - -Mrs. OSWALD. These are the lyrics of a popular song. - -Mr. RANKIN. A Russian popular song? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. This is Armenian--an Armenian popular song. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 108. - -The CHAIRMAN. It is admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 108, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 109 is one sheet with handwriting in ink on both -sides, an original. - -Mrs. OSWALD. This was simply my recollection of some song lyrics and -the names of some songs that people had asked me. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer Exhibit 109. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 109, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 110 is a yellow legal sized sheet with handwriting -in Russian which seems to be interpreted in English below it, together -with a little stamp. I can explain the stamp. It says FBI Laboratory. - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is when George Bouhe was giving me lessons. I -translated from Russian into English--not very successfully--my first -lessons. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer Exhibit 110. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 110, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. When was it that George Bouhe was teaching you English and -you wrote this out? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This was in July 1962. I don't remember when I arrived--in -'62 or '61. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is the handwriting in Exhibit 110 in the Russian as well as -the English in your handwriting? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. The Russian is written by Bouhe, and the English is -written by me. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you make the translation from the Russian into the -English by yourself? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I had to study English. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a dictionary to work with? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. So you were taking a Russian-English dictionary and trying -to convert the Russian words that he wrote out into English, is that -right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 111 is a book written in Russian, a pocket book. - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is my book. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you notice some of the letters are cut out of that book, -Exhibit 111? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Letters? - -I see that for the first time. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who did that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Probably Lee was working, but I never saw that. I don't -know what he did that for. - -Mr. RANKIN. You never saw him while he was working with that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. I would have shown him if I had seen him doing that to -my book. - -Mr. RANKIN. You know sometimes messages are made up by cutting out -letters that way and putting them together to make words. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I read about it. - -Mr. RANKIN. You have never seen him do that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer Exhibit 111. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 111, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 112 is an apparent application--an applicant's -driving record. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I have never seen this. - -Mr. THORNE. It is in English. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is not your driving record, then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. You don't know whether it was your husband's? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. - -Mr. THORNE. May I clarify the exhibit? It is an application for a Texas -driver's license. Standard form application. - -Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 112. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 112, and -received in evidence.) - -Mrs. OSWALD. It is quite possible that Lee prepared that, because Ruth -Paine insisted on Lee's obtaining a license. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you hear her insist? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. She said it would be good to have. - -Mr. RANKIN. And when was that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. October or November. - -Mr. RANKIN. 1962? - -Mrs. OSWALD. '63. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 113 is a driver's handbook published by the State -of Texas. - -Mrs. OSWALD. We had this book for quite some time. George Bouhe had -given that to Lee if he at some time would try to learn how to drive. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 113. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 113, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Was your husband able to drive a car? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I think that he knew how. Ruth taught him how. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he have a driver's license that you know of? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -This is a Russian camera of Lee's--binoculars. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 114 is a leather case containing a pair of -binoculars. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember having seen those binoculars, known as -Exhibit 114, before? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. We had binoculars in Russia because we liked to look -through them at a park. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether your husband used them in connection -with the Walker incident? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. He never said anything about that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 114. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 114, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 115 is a box containing a stamping kit. - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is Lee's. When he was busy with his Cuba, he used it. - -Mr. RANKIN. You mean when he was working on the Fair Play for Cuba, he -used this? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 115. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 115, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. How did he use that kit in Exhibit 115 in connection with -his Fair Play for Cuba campaign? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He had leaflets for which he assembled letters and printed -his address. - -Mr. RANKIN. And he used this kit largely to stamp the address on the -letters? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Not letters, but leaflets. - -Mr. RANKIN. He stamped the address on the leaflets? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Handbills, rather. - -Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall whether he stamped his name on the handbills, -too? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. What name did he stamp on them? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he use the name Hidell on those, too? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. Perhaps. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 116 is a Spanish to English and English to Spanish -dictionary. - -Mr. RANKIN. Have you seen that before? - -Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee came from Mexico City I think he had this. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 116. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be received. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 116, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 117 is one sheet of paper with, some penciled -markings on it. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what that is. I don't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recognize any of the writing on that exhibit? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Lee's handwriting. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 117. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 117, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 118 is a clipping from a newspaper. There are some -notations on it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall seeing that clipping, Exhibit 118, before? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recognize any of the handwriting on it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. As far as it is visible, it is similar to Lee's -handwriting. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer Exhibit 118. The CHAIRMAN. 118 may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 118, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. I call attention to the members of the Commission that -Exhibit 118 has a reference to the President, with regard to the -income tax, and the position of the Administration as being favorable -to business rather than to the small taxpayer in the approach to the -income tax. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 119 contains a key with a chain. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what this is a key to. - -Mr. RANKIN. It appears to be a key to a padlock. Do you recognize it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I can see that it is a key to a padlock, but I have never -used such a key. - -Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever seen your husband use such a key? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It is hard to remember what key he used. I know he had a -key. - -(The article referred to was marked as Commission Exhibit No. 119 for -identification.) - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 120 purports to be a telescope--15 power telescope. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I have never seen such a telescope. - -Mr. RANKIN. You never saw it as a part of your husband's things? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -(The article referred to was marked for identification as Exhibit No. -120.) - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 121 is a Russell Stover candy box filled with -miscellaneous assortment--medicines of all kinds. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, can you help us in regard to that Exhibit 121? -Are those your medicines or are those your husband's? - -Mrs. OSWALD. These are all my medications. - -(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 121 and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 122 is a cardboard box containing an assortment of -items. - -Mrs. OSWALD. These are all his things. I think he used this to clean -the rifle. - -Mr. RANKIN. You are showing us pipe cleaners that you say your husband -used to clean the rifle, as you remember it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. How often did he clean it, do you remember? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Not too often. I have already told you. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 122. - -The CHAIRMAN. It will be received. - -(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 122, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 123 contains seven small one ounce dark brown -bottles. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Lee's brother is a pharmacist. He gave this to us. - -Mr. THORNE. As well as the apparent boxes that they came in. - -Mr. RANKIN. Which brother is a pharmacist? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Murret. - -Mr. RANKIN. You mean his cousin? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. In the Russian the word cousin is second brother. - -Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 123. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be received. - -(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 123, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 124 is a hunting knife in a sheath, approximately a -4- or 5-inch blade. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I have never seen this knife. - -It is a new knife. And that telescope is also new. - -(The article referred to was marked as Commission Exhibit No. 124 for -identification.) - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 125 is a file cabinet for presumably three by five -or five by seven inch cards. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Lee kept his printing things in that, pencils. - -Mr. RANKIN. The things that he printed his Fair Play for Cuba leaflets -on? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Pencils and materials that he used in connection with that -matter? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he have any index cards in that metal case? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he had some. - -Mr. RANKIN. You don't know what happened to them? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what was on those index cards? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. A list of any people that you know of? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. I don't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were those leaflets about Fair Play for Cuba printed? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And then did he stamp something on them after he had them -printed? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He would print his name and address on them. - -Mr. RANKIN. I will offer in evidence Exhibit 125. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 125, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. You don't know what happened to the cards that were in that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 126 is a small hand overnight bag, canvas zipper -bag. - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is Lee's handbag, and he arrived with it from Mexico -City. - -Mr. RANKIN. It is one of the bags that you described when you were -telling about his bringing one back from Mexico City? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He only had this one. - -Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 126 was the only bag that he brought back? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 126. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 126, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 127 is a suitcase. - -Mrs. OSWALD. A Russian suitcase. - -Mr. RANKIN. You have seen that before, have you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Of course. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he took Exhibit 127 to Mexico? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. You don't know, or you don't think he did? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I know that he did not take it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know when he used Exhibit 127? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't think that he would have used it. - -Was this taken in Lee's apartment? - -Mr. RANKIN. We cannot tell you that, Mrs. Oswald. We don't know which -place it was taken from. - -You have seen it amongst his things, though, have you not? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. I think these things were in Ruth Paine's garage. - -Mr. RANKIN. You don't know whether it is his or Mrs. Paine's? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is my suitcase. - -Mr. RANKIN. And did you use it to come from the Soviet Union? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. THORNE. This is not Lee's suitcase, then--this is your personal -suitcase? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Ours, or mine. - -Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 127. - -The CHAIRMAN. Do you need that? That is hers. She may want it. Do you -think we need it? - -Very well. It may be admitted. - -(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 127, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 128 is a Humble Oil and Refining Company courtesy -map of the Dallas-Fort Worth area. - -Mr. RANKIN. I call your attention, Mrs. Oswald, to the markings in ink, -in the area where the assassination took place. - -Mrs. OSWALD. This map Lee acquired after returning to Irving. Before -that, he had another map. - -That doesn't tell me anything. I did not use this map. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see your husband use it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. I think that this was in his apartment, where he -lived. Perhaps he used it there. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see him put those markings on it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I have never seen him use this specific map. Possibly -he marked this place, not because of what happened there, but because -this was the place where he worked, I don't know. He had a habit to -note down the addresses of all acquaintances where he worked. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell whether the writing on the side of the map -there is in your husband's handwriting? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It doesn't look like his handwriting. - -(The document referred to was marked for identification as Commission -Exhibit No. 128.) - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 129 purports to be some type of an official -document in Russian. - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is my birth certificate. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why it was issued at that date, rather than -presumably the one that was issued when you were born? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Because mine was lost somewhere, and it was reissued. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have to go there to get it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, simply write a letter. - -Mr. RANKIN. And they mailed it to you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer that exhibit in evidence. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 129, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 130 seems to be an original instrument in Russian. - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is a copy of a birth certificate which a notary -issues. - -Mr. THORNE. Whose certificate? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Mine. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 130. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 130, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 131 is a one-sheet document in Russian. - -Mrs. OSWALD. The same thing. - -Mr. RANKIN. Why did you have these other copies? - -Mrs. OSWALD. These documents were needed for regularizing all the -documents in connection with the trip abroad. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know why the date was rewritten from July 14 to July -19 on them? - -Mrs. OSWALD. In which? - -Mr. RANKIN. In the original. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't see that. - -It says July 17, 1941. The certificate is issued July 19, 1961. - -Mr. KRIMER. The transcript shows 17th of July 1941. - -May I explain it, sir? - -Mr. RANKIN. You explain it, Mr. Krimer, and then ask her if you are -explaining it correctly. - -Mr. KRIMER. I have explained it correctly, and she says it is correct. - -This states she was born on July 17, but that an entry was made in the -register about that on August 14, 1961. This accounts for the change in -the digit. And this was issued on July 19, 1941. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer that in evidence. - -The CHAIRMAN. That will be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 131, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. THORNE. 132 is a two-sheet, eight-page letter with an envelope. -This is written in Russian. - -Mrs. OSWALD. The envelope is from Sobolev, and the letter is from -Golovachev. I simply kept them together. - -Mr. RANKIN. There is a reference in the last full paragraph of that -letter, Mrs. Oswald, where it said, "By the way, Marina, try to explain -to Paul that the basic idea of Pagodzin's play 'A man with a rifle' is -contained in words"--and then goes on. Do you know what was meant by -that? - -It says "Now we do not have to fear a man with a rifle." Who is Paul? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is only that the word "rifle" scares you, but it -is quite harmless. This is Peter Gregory, Paul. He is also studying -Russian. And he had to make a report at the institute about Pagodzin's -play "Man with a Rifle". This play is about the revolution in Russia, -and there is a film. I helped him with it. - -Mr. RANKIN. You are satisfied that has nothing to do with the -assassination? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 132. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 132, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 133 contains two photographs. - -These are pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald with a rifle and pistol. - -Mrs. OSWALD. For me at first they appeared to be one and the same, at -first glance. But they are different poses. - -Mr. RANKIN. You took both of those pictures, did you, in Exhibit 133? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And are those the pictures you took when you were out -hanging up diapers, and your husband asked you to take the pictures of -him? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. With the pistol and the rifle? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 133. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 133, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall whether these pictures in Exhibit 133 were -taken before or after the Walker incident? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Before. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 134 is an enlargement of one of these -pictures--what purports to be an enlargement. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, this is an enlargement of that photograph. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, in Exhibit 133, in one of the pictures your -husband has a newspaper, it appears. - -Mr. DULLES. I think in both of them. - -Mr. RANKIN. I want to correct that. - -In both he appears to have a newspaper. In one of them he has the -newspaper in the right hand and in the other in the left hand. Do you -know what newspaper that is? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It says there "Militant." But I don't know what kind of a -paper that is--whether it is Communist, anti-Communist. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall how much earlier than the Walker incident you -took these photographs? - -Mrs. OSWALD. About two weeks. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was the enlargement of one of those pictures, Exhibit 134, -made by you, or by someone else? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't know who made the enlargement. - -Mr. RANKIN. Have you seen Exhibit 134, the enlargement, before this? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. I have been shown an enlargement, but I don't know -whether this is the one I have been shown. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who showed that to you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Apart from Mr. Gopadze, somebody else showed me an -enlargement. - -Mr. RANKIN. Does this appear to be like the enlargement that you saw? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I think it was specially enlarged for the -investigation. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit No. 134. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 134, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit No. 136 purports to be a clipping from a newspaper. -It is a clipping of an advertisement, a mail coupon. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what that is. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recognize the handwriting on it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Lee's handwriting. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 135. - -The CHAIRMAN. It will be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 135, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. I call the Commission's attention to the fact that this is -the coupon under which it appears the rifle was ordered, showing an -enclosed $10 notation--"Check for $29.95, A. G. Hidell, age 28, post -office box 2915, Dallas, Texas." - -And it is marked, "One--quantity. Point 38 ST. W. 2 inch barrel, -29.95," and underlined is 29.95, and an arrow at that point. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 136 is a camera contained within a leather case. - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is a Russian camera. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is that the camera you used to take the pictures you have -referred to? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember exactly whether it was an American camera -or this. - -Mr. RANKIN. But this was one of your cameras, or your husband's cameras? - -Mrs. OSWALD. My husband's camera. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 136. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 136, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 137 is a camera in a leather case. - -Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever seen that camera before? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. DULLES. Is that a Russian camera? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 137 for -identification.) - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 138 is a flash attachment for some type of camera. -It is an Ansco flash attachment. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I have never seen it. - -(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 138 for -identification.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what happened to the American camera that you -referred to? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was this Ansco flash equipment an attachment for that -camera? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I have never seen it. It seems to me that it is new. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 139. - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is the fateful rifle of Lee Oswald. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is that the scope that it had on it, as far as you know? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 139. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 139, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 140 apparently is a blanket. - -Mr. RANKIN. Have you seen that before, Mrs. Oswald? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is still from Russia. June loved to play with that -blanket. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was that the blanket that your husband used to cover up the -rifle? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. We didn't use this blanket as a cover. He used it for -the rifle. - -Mr. RANKIN. And it was the blanket that you saw and thought was -covering the rifle in the garage at the Paine's, is it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he use it as a cover for the rifle at other places -where you lived? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 140. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 140, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you say that June played with this blanket, Exhibit 140? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I would put that on the floor to make it softer--on a -balcony, for example, when June was playing on it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is that in this country or in Russia? - -Mrs. OSWALD. She didn't crawl yet in Russia. - -Mr. RANKIN. What balcony was that--what house? - -Mrs. OSWALD. On Neely Street, in Dallas. - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 141 is an envelope that contains a bullet. - -Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever seen bullets or shells like that that your -husband had? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think Lee's were smaller. - -Mr. RANKIN. If that was the size for his gun, would that cause you to -think it was the same? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Probably. - -Mr. RANKIN. Where did you see his? - -Mrs. OSWALD. In New Orleans, and on Neely Street. - -Mr. RANKIN. In the box, or laying loose some place? - -Mrs. OSWALD. In a box. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 141. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 141, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 142 is some kraft paper, brown wrapping paper. - -Mrs. OSWALD. It wasn't brown before. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see that before? - -Mrs. OSWALD. The FBI questioned me about this paper, but I don't -know--I have never seen it. - -Mr. RANKIN. At one time it was kraft color, before they treated it to -get fingerprints. - -Did you ever see anything like that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Everybody sees such paper. But I didn't see that with Lee. - -Mr. RANKIN. You have never seen anything like that around the house, -then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. We have wrapping paper around the house. - -Mr. RANKIN. That Exhibit 142 is more than just wrapping paper. It was -apparently made up into a sack or bag. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't see it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see him make up a bag or sack or anything like -that, to hold a rifle? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 142, for -identification.) - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 143 is a pistol. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Lee Oswald's. - -Mr. RANKIN. You recognize that as a pistol of your husband? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 143. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 143, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 144 is a leather pistol holster. - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is a holster for Lee's pistol. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is Exhibit 144 the same holster that is in those pictures -that you took? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And the pistol is the same pistol as in those pictures? - -Mrs. OSWALD. As much as I can tell. - -Mr. RANKIN. At least they appear to be, as far as you can tell? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And the rifle is the same, or appears to be, is it not? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 144, and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 145 is a small cardboard box containing two -bullets, .38 caliber. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recognize those as appearing to be the size of the -bullets that your husband had for the pistol? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It is hard for me to tell, because I don't understand -about this. I never looked at them, because I am afraid. - -Mr. RANKIN. But you have seen bullets like that, have you, in your -husband's apartment or rooming house, or in the Neely apartment or at -Mrs. Paine's? - -Mrs. OSWALD. At Mrs. Paine's I never saw any shells. - -On Neely Street, perhaps it is similar--New Orleans. It looks like it. -If they fit Lee's pistol, then they must be the right ones. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 145. - -The CHAIRMAN. Admitted. - -(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 145, and -received in evidence.) - -The CHAIRMAN. We will take a short recess. - -(Brief recess.) - -The CHAIRMAN. We will be in order, please. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, would you step over with the interpreter to -this desk and point out the different pieces of clothing as we ask you -about it, please? - -Do you know the shirt that Lee Oswald wore the morning that he left? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. What else interests you? What do you -want? - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us whether any of this clothing set out on -this desk belonged to Lee Oswald? - -Mrs. OSWALD. These are Lee's shoes. - -Mr. RANKIN. When you say the shoes, you pointed to Exhibit 149? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. This is a pair of shoes of which Exhibit 149 is a -photograph. - -Mrs. OSWALD. These are his bath slippers. - -Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 148 are his bath slippers? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Japanese bath slippers. These shoes I have never seen. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 147, you say those are shoes you have never -seen? - -How about Exhibit 146? - -Mrs. OSWALD. These are his, yes. These are all Lee's shirts. - -Mr. RANKIN. Exhibits 150, 151---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. These are his pajamas. - -Mr. RANKIN. Exhibits 150, and 151 are Lee Oswald's shirts, is that -right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And Exhibit 152 is a pair of his pajamas? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And Exhibit 153--you recognize that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is his shirt. - -Mr. RANKIN. And Exhibit 154? Is that one of his shirts? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 155? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, also. Why is it all torn? - -Mr. RANKIN. We are advised it was when he was hurt, they cut into some -of these. - -Do you recall whether or not he was wearing Exhibit--the shirt that I -point to now, the morning of the 22d of November--Exhibit 150? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it was a dark shirt. - -Mr. RANKIN. You think that was the one? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. I call your attention to Exhibit 156. Is that a pair of his -pants? - -Mrs. OSWALD. These are his work pants. - -Mr. RANKIN. And 157? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Also work pants. These are all work pants. - -Mr. RANKIN. 158? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Why were both of those cut? I don't understand. - -Mr. RANKIN. I have not been informed, but I will try to find out for -you. - -Mrs. OSWALD. It is not necessary. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall which of the pants he was wearing on the -morning of November 22, 1963? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think the gray ones, but I am not sure, because it was -dark in the room, and I paid no attention to what pants he put on. - -Mr. RANKIN. By the gray ones, you are referring to what I point to as -Exhibit 157, is that right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us about Exhibit 159, a sweater? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That was my gift to Lee, a sweater. - -Mr. RANKIN. 160? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is Lee's shirt. - -Mr. RANKIN. 161? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is a pullover sweater. This is his pullover sweater. - -Mr. RANKIN. 162? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is Lee's--an old shirt. - -Mr. RANKIN. Sort of a jacket? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. 163? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Also. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall which one of the sweaters or jackets he was -wearing on the morning of November 22, 1963? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. - -Mr. RANKIN. When was the last time that you saw this jacket, Exhibit -163? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember seeing it on the morning of November 22, -1963? - -Mrs. OSWALD. The thing is that I saw Lee in the room, and I didn't see -him getting dressed in the room. That is why it is difficult for me to -say. But I told him to put on something warm on the way to work. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall whether the jacket, Exhibit 163, is something -that he put on in your presence at any time that day? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Not in my presence. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you didn't observe it on him at any time, then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is it possible that Exhibit 163 was worn by him that -morning without your knowing about it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Quite possible. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, at the time you saw him at the Dallas jail, can you -tell us what clothing of any that are on this desk he was wearing at -that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. None of these. He had on a white T-shirt. What trousers he -was wearing, I could not tell, because I only saw him through a window. - -Mr. RANKIN. Would you examine the collar on the shirt? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is Lee's shirt. - -Mr. RANKIN. It has a mark "Brent long tail sanforized." - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I know this shirt. I gave it to him. The sweater is -also his. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any of these clothes that your husband was -wearing when he came home Thursday night, November 21, 1963? - -Mrs. OSWALD. On Thursday I think he wore this shirt. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is that Exhibit 150? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember anything else he was wearing at that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It seems he had that jacket, also. - -Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 162? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And the pants, Exhibit 157? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. But I am not sure. This is as much as I can remember. - -Mr. RANKIN. Thank you. - -Mr. THORNE. I identify this photograph, which is marked Exhibit 164 -as being a true photograph of the shirt displayed to Mrs. Oswald, and -recognized by her as being a shirt that she gave to Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer all of the Exhibits, Nos. 146 to 164, inclusive. - -The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted. - -(The articles referred to were marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 146 to -164, inclusive, and received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, do you remember any information or documents -under your control or in your possession which would relate to or shed -any light on the matters we have been examining which you have not -presented here? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I have nothing else. Everything has been taken from me. - -Mr. RANKIN. Some of the Commissioners have a question or two, or a few -questions. If you will permit them, they would like to address them to -you. - -Representative BOGGS. Mrs. Oswald, this question has already been asked -you, but I would like to ask it again. - -I gather that you have reached the conclusion in your own mind that -your husband killed President Kennedy. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Regretfully, yes. - -Representative BOGGS. During the weeks and months prior to the -assassination--and I think this question has also been asked--did you -ever at any time hear your late husband express any hostility towards -President Kennedy? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Representative BOGGS. What motive would you ascribe to your husband in -killing President Kennedy? - -Mrs. OSWALD. As I saw the documents that were being read to me, I came -to the conclusion that he wanted in any--by any means, good or bad, to -get into history. But now that I have heard a part of the translation -of some of the documents, I think that there was some political -foundation to it, a foundation of which I am not aware. - -Representative BOGGS. By that, do you mean that your husband acted in -concert with someone else? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, only alone. - -Representative BOGGS. You are convinced that his action was his action -alone, that he was influenced by no one else? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I am convinced. - -Representative BOGGS. Did you consider your husband a Communist? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He told me when we were in New Orleans that he was a -Communist, but I didn't believe him, because I said, "What kind of a -Communist are you if you don't like the Communists in Russia?" - -Representative BOGGS. Did he like the Communists in the United States? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He considered them to be on a higher level and more -conscious than the Communists in Russia. - -Representative BOGGS. Did you consider your husband a normal man in the -usual sense of the term? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He was always a normal man, but where it concerned his -ideas, and he did not introduce me to his ideas, I did not consider him -normal. - -Representative BOGGS. Maybe I used the wrong terminology. Did you -consider him mentally sound? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he was smart and capable. Only he did not use his -capabilities in the proper direction. He was not deprived of reason--he -was not a man deprived of reason. - -Representative BOGGS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. - -The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cooper, did you have any questions to ask? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No one knows the truth, no one can read someone else's -thoughts, as I could not read Lee's thoughts. But that is only my -opinion. - -Senator COOPER. Mrs. Oswald, some of the questions that I ask you you -may have answered--because I have been out at times. - -I believe you have stated that your husband at times expressed -opposition to or dislike of the United States or of its political or -economic system, is that correct? - -Mrs. OSWALD. As far as I know, he expressed more dissatisfaction -with economic policy, because as to the political matters he did not -enlighten me as to his political thoughts. - -Senator COOPER. Did he ever suggest to you or to anyone in your -presence that the economic system of the United States should be -changed, and did he suggest any means for changing it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He never proposed that, but from his conversations it -followed that it would be necessary to change it. But he didn't propose -any methods. - -Senator COOPER. Did he ever say to you or anyone in your presence that -the system might be changed if officials were changed or authorities of -our country were changed? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, he never said that to me. - -Senator COOPER. Did he ever express to you any hostility towards any -particular official of the United States? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I know that he didn't like Walker, but I don't know -whether you could call him an official. - -Senator COOPER. May I ask if you ever heard anyone express to him -hostility towards President Kennedy? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, never. - -Senator COOPER. More specifically, I will ask--did you know Mr. -Frazier? - -Representative BOGGS. Wesley Frazier. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes, that is the boy who took him to work. - -Senator COOPER. You never heard him or anyone else express to your -husband any hostility towards President Kennedy? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Senator COOPER. Mrs. Paine? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. - -Senator COOPER. That is all I have. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dulles, have you anything further you would like to -ask? - -Mr. DULLES. Mr. Chief Justice, I only have one question. Mr. Rankin has -kindly asked several questions I had during the course of this hearing, -these hearings the last 3 days. - -Apart from trying to achieve a place in history, can you think of any -other motive or anything that your husband felt he would achieve by the -act of assassinating the President? That he was trying to accomplish -something? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It is hard for me to say what he wanted to accomplish, -because I don't understand him. - -The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, did you have anything further? - -Representative FORD. Mrs. Oswald after President Kennedy was -assassinated, your husband was apprehended and later questioned by a -number of authorities. In the questioning he denied that he kept a -rifle at Mrs. Paine's home. He denied shooting President Kennedy. And -he questioned the authenticity of the photographs that you took of him -holding the rifle and the holster. - -Now, despite these denials by your husband, you still believe Lee -Oswald killed President Kennedy? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Representative FORD. That is all. - -Representative BOGGS. Mr. Chairman, just one or two other questions. - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes. - -Representative BOGGS. Mrs. Oswald, when you lived in New Orleans with -your husband, and he was active in this alleged Cuban committee, did -you attend any meetings of any committees--was anyone else present? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, never. - -Representative BOGGS. Were there any members of the committee other -than your husband? - -Mrs. OSWALD. There was no one. There was no one. There was no -organization in New Orleans. Only Lee was there. - -Representative BOGGS. One other question. Did he also dislike Russia -when he was in Russia? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Representative BOGGS. Thank you. - -The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mrs. Oswald, you have been a very cooperative -witness. You have helped the Commission. We are grateful to you for -doing this. We realize that this has been a hard ordeal for you to go -through. - -Mrs. OSWALD. It was difficult to speak all the truth. - -The CHAIRMAN. We hope you know that the questions we have asked you -have--none of them have been from curiosity or to embarrass you, but -only to report to the world what the truth is. - -Now, after you leave here, you may have a copy of everything you have -testified to. You may read it, and if there is anything that you think -was not correctly recorded, or anything you would like to add to it, -you may do so. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I unfortunately--I cannot--since it will be in English. - -The CHAIRMAN. Your lawyer may read it for you, and if he points out -something to you that you think you should have changed, you may feel -free to do that. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he will read it. - -The CHAIRMAN. And if in the future we should like to ask you some more -questions about something that develops through the investigation, -would you be willing to come back and talk to us again? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -The CHAIRMAN. We hope it won't be necessary to disturb you. But if it -is, you would be willing to come, would you not? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. - -Representative FORD. Mr. Chairman--I would just like to suggest that -if Mrs. Oswald does wish to revise any of her testimony, that this be -called to the attention of the Commission through her attorney, Mr. -Thorne. - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes, of course. That is the proper procedure. - -Now, Mr. Thorne, you have been very cooperative with the Commission. We -appreciate that cooperation. We hope that if anything new should come -to your attention that would be helpful to the Commission, you would -feel free to communicate with us. - -Mr. THORNE. Certainly, Mr. Chairman. - -The CHAIRMAN. Do you care to say anything at this time? - -Mr. THORNE. Mr. Chairman, if I may, I would like to make a closing -statement. - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes. And may I say, also, if you have any questions you -would like to ask Mrs. Oswald before you make your statement, you may -do that. - -Mr. THORNE. There are none. - -Representative BOGGS. Mr. Chairman, I would just like to say Mr. Thorne -has been very helpful. - -Mr. THORNE. During the noon recess, Mrs. Oswald made four requests of -me to make before this Commission. - -You have anticipated several of them, but I think there are one or two -that need to be covered. - -To begin with, she wanted me to express to you, Mr. Chairman, and -members of your Commission, her extreme gratitude to you for the -consideration and kindness that has been shown to her in these -proceedings. She feels you have certainly gone out of your way to make -her comfortable, and she has been comfortable, in spite of the sad and -tragic events we have been discussing. - -Point No. 2, she did want to make it quite clear to the Commission -that in the event her testimony was needed for rebuttal or whatever on -down the line, she would be available, and at your wish would come to -Washington as convenient for you when it was again convenient. - -The third point you have already covered. She did request that she be -given a copy of these proceedings, which I told her she would receive, -and, of course, copies of the exhibits would be attached for her -identification and examination. - -Mrs. OSWALD. And copies of some of the letters? - -Mr. THORNE. This will all be attached as exhibits. - -And the final point was this. She has been, as you know, under -protective custody of the Secret Service from shortly after the -assassination. She has been most grateful for this protection. The -Secret Service have shown her every courtesy, as everyone has in this -matter. She is extremely grateful for this protection they have given -her. - -I haven't had personally enough time to think this thing out myself. I -don't know. It is her request, however, that, at this point she feels -the protection is no longer necessary. She feels that at this time she -can walk among people with her head held high. She has nothing to hide. -She is not afraid. - -She feels that the Secret Service has performed a noble service to her. -And this is not meant by way of saying for some action on their part -she wants to get rid of them. - -I have noticed that since we have been in Washington she resents being -guided. She feels she can find her way by herself. - -And, if the Commission would give this matter consideration--we don't -know whom to go to. I haven't thought about it. I don't know who has -suggested the Secret Service continue protecting her. It is a matter, -of course, that ought to be considered. - -But it is her request that as soon as it is practical, she would like -to be a free agent and out of the confines of this protection. - -I point out to you gentlemen that she is living, as you well know, with -Mr. and Mrs. Martin. They have a rather modest home. Three bedrooms. It -has a den and it has a combination living and dining room. The house -is not extremely large, but there are always two men in the house. -This does burden the family. This is not a request on the part of the -Martins. They welcome this protection. This is something she thinks in -terms of herself that she does not want to feel that she is being held -back. - -Is that correct? - -Mrs. OSWALD. What I wanted to say, Mr. Thorne has said. - -Mr. THORNE. For my own part, gentlemen, thank you. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Thorne, we can understand Mrs. Oswald's desire to -live a perfectly normal life with her children. Whatever has been done, -as you recognize, has been done for her protection, and for her help -during these terrible days that she has been going through. - -But she may feel from this moment on that she is under no protection, -except what she might ask for. And so you are perfectly free, Mrs. -Oswald, to live your normal life without any interference from anyone. -And should anyone interfere with you, I hope you would call it to the -attention of the Commission. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you very much. - -Mr. THORNE. Mr. Chairman, may I add one point, please? - -For our purposes, I would appreciate it if this matter of removal, -assuming that it is to be removed shortly, is kept secret, also. - -I would prefer generally for the public to feel that--at least -temporarily--that this protection is available. I don't feel any qualms -myself. I don't feel there are any problems. But I think the matter of -Mrs. Marguerite Oswald has come up. There may be some problem from some -sources. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Thorne, I think the correct answer to that would -be--and it would be the answer we would give--that Mrs. Oswald, in the -future, will be given such assistance and only such assistance as she -asks for. - -Mr. THORNE. Thank you very much, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. I want to say also before the session adjourns that we -are indebted to Mr. Krimer for the manner in which he has interpreted. -Next to the witness, I am sure he has had the hardest position in this -whole hearing. And we appreciate the manner in which he has done it. - -Mr. KRIMER. Thank you very much, sir. - -Mrs. OSWALD. He is a very good interpreter. - -The CHAIRMAN. Very well. If there is nothing further to come before the -session, we will adjourn. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I am very grateful to all of you. I didn't think among -Americans I would find so many friends. - -The CHAIRMAN. You have friends here. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you. - -(Whereupon, at 5:50 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -_Monday, February 10, 1964_ - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD - -The President's Commission met at 10 a.m. on February 10, 1964, at 200 -Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. - -Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman: Senator Richard B. -Russell, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and -Allen W. Dulles, members. - -Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel; John F. Doyle, attorney for Mrs. Marguerite Oswald; -and Leon Jaworski, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas. - - -The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will come to order. - -Let the record show that Senator Russell and I are present, and we -convened today for the purpose of taking the testimony of Mrs. Oswald. - -Mrs. Oswald, would you rise and be sworn, please? - -Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, -and nothing but the truth, so help you God, throughout this proceeding? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I do--so help me God. - -The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated. - -Now, Mrs. Oswald, you are here represented by an attorney, are you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir; Mr. Doyle is representing me. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Doyle is representing you. Mr. Doyle was appointed, -was he not, at your request? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I asked to be represented by counsel. - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes. And the record may show that Mr. Doyle was appointed -to represent her at the request of Mrs. Oswald by the president of the -Bar Association of the District of Columbia, Mr. Pratt. - -That is correct, is it not, Mr. Doyle? - -Mr. DOYLE. It is, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, you are appearing voluntarily before the -Commission, are you not? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, voluntarily. - -The CHAIRMAN. You requested to do so. - -In order that you may have a full opportunity to testify in your own -manner, and tell us everything that you know, and particularly because -we do not know what you know, I am going to ask you if you would like -first, in your own way, and in your own time, to tell us everything you -have concerning this case. - -You would like to do that, would you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Chief Justice Warren. I would like to very much. - -However, there are three things that I have asked that should be -brought before the Council, three requests of mine. One has already -been granted--that is the counsel, Mr. Doyle. And I do appreciate that -fact. - -I have stated publicly that I believe in the American way of life and -justice for all men, which is our American way of life. - -My son, Lee Harvey Oswald, was tried and convicted within a few hours -time, without benefit of counsel. And so I am appealing to the Board -that my son, Lee Harvey Oswald, be represented by counsel. I am being -represented by counsel. My daughter-in-law Marina was represented -by counsel. And I understand that all other witnesses will have the -privilege of being represented by counsel. - -However, the main object of the Commission is Lee Harvey Oswald, in the -murder of President Kennedy. So I strongly believe that Lee should be -represented by counsel. - -Now, my reasons for wanting this done this way is, I will state, -that Marina has testified. Marina has testified, according to the -papers--and I am assuming that this is correct--that Lee wanted to live -in Russia and Cuba, and that is why he went to Mexico. - -I happen to know differently--because Marina has told me the first day -I was with her, "Mama, I write to Russian consul. I want go back to -Russia. I like America. But Lee no get work." - -So you see, had a counsel been there in behalf of my son, when Marina -said that--it doesn't have to be a court trial or a cross-examination. -All I am asking is that this man sit quietly, and when he knows of -different facts, then he could say, "Well, Mrs. Oswald, isn't it true -that you wrote the Russian consul yourself, wanting to go back to -Russia?" - -And in this way, gentlemen, I believe you would have both sides and a -true picture. - -I cannot see how you can come to a true conclusion by taking individual -testimony. - -Now, I, myself, am here today to testify. I have been sworn in. But -that doesn't mean that I can tell the whole story. I may forget -something. And the counsel would know. - -We have investigators all over the country, the reporters are -interested, the public. I have over 1,500 letters, people expressing -their opinion of the way this case is being handled. And, believe me, -gentlemen, they are not satisfied. - -I can produce these documents for you. - -They think, like I think, that the American way of life, both sides -should be heard. - -I don't think that seven men of this Commission can come to a true -conclusion. What it will be, it will be an analysis of what the FBI -and the Secret Service and the Dallas police have--mainly, speculation -and opinion of other people. - -Now, Mr. Lane has affidavits, I understand, from the same witnesses -that have made statements to the Dallas police, which are contrary to -those particular statements. - -I implore you--I implore you, in the name of justice, to let my son, -Lee Harvey Oswald, who is accused of assassinating the President, and -I, the mother of this man, who is the accused's mother, be represented -by counsel. - -We have information pertinent to this case. - -My daughter-in-law is the only one who has testified. - -The things that came out in the paper--I know, I have documents. I am -not asking you to believe me as a mother. I can prove the statements -that I say. - -And I believe in this way you will have a true picture, and a much -better picture, because as you are going along you will be having both -sides, and won't have to wait to analyze the situation in the end, -as the testimony is being given by each individual, right then and -there--you will have the other party's testimony. - -Now, there is another---- - -The CHAIRMAN. Before you leave that, Mrs. Oswald, may I say to you, -first, that the Commission is not here to prosecute your dead son. It -is not here and it was not established to prosecute anyone. - -It is the purpose and the province of the Commission to obtain all the -facts that it can obtain, and then make an impartial report--not as a -prosecutor, but as an impartial Commission--on the manner in which the -President came to his death. - -We are trying to recognize the individual rights of all persons who -are called before the Commission, to let them have their lawyers, and -let their lawyers have an opportunity to examine them, as well as the -Commission. - -You may be sure that if Mr. Lane has any evidence of his own knowledge, -or has any accumulation of affidavits from others, to the effect--to -any effect, concerning this trial, that he will have an opportunity -to come here, just as you are here, in order to present those to the -Commission. - -But so far as his being here at all times before the Commission to -cross-examine or to be present when all witnesses are testifying--that -is not in accordance with the procedures of the Commission. - -But I assure you that if Mr. Lane has any evidence of any kind bearing -upon the assassination of the President, he will be accorded the same -opportunity that you have to come here and present them, and we will -give him an opportunity in his own way to tell his story, and present -his own evidence. And should he want counsel, he may have counsel, also. - -Now, you may go to your second point. - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I am not finished with my first, please. - -I appreciate and I understand exactly what you have told me, Chief -Justice Warren. - -But there is one thing--and, of course, I will have to accept your -decision, and will be most happy to have Mr. Lane present his testimony -the way you have suggested. - -However, I am not in agreement with you. One point I want to make clear. - -We do not know the questions that you are asking of myself or Marina -or the other witnesses. And I contend that you cannot ask them the -pertinent questions because you don't know what I know, and what Mr. -Lane knows. And so you will still have an analysis in the long run, a -conclusion. - -I am going to go back to Marina. As I say, Marina made her -statements---- - -The CHAIRMAN. On that particular thing, may I say this: It is true that -we don't know how to examine you at the present time because we don't -know what you have to present to this Commission. But we are affording -you the opportunity before we ask you any questions to tell your story, -in your own way. - -Then we should know what questions we want to ask of you. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I understand that thoroughly. - -But I am a human being, going through a life story from childhood, and -I may forget something that my counsel would know. And that applies -to witnesses. They may forget to testify something that my counsel -has facts on. I will have to accept your verdict, but I don't do it -graciously. - -I want that for record. - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Well, that is all right, Mrs. Oswald. You may state -that for the record. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I have documents, and I would like to ask, please--I will -not leave any documents out of my hand. I carry them with me wherever I -go. Even Mr. Doyle has been told that the documents stay with me. - -I have had documents stolen from me. I have had newspaper clippings -stolen from me in my home, by the Secret Service. - -I make the statement perfectly plain. And so the documents stay with me. - -Now, these are originals. I want, and you will want, copies of every -original I have, and I will be more than happy to let you have them. -However, I want to be present when these copies are made and the -original returned to me. - -I will under no circumstances let anyone have my originals for an hour -or two, and then return them to me--if I am making myself plain. - -I would like to request that, please. - -The CHAIRMAN. We will accommodate you in that respect. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Then I have one other stipulation or request. - -When I tell my story, I will be including people in my story that -possibly you don't know of. I request that I have the privilege, -through you, of course, to subpena these people that are in connection -with the story that I tell, if you do not have the names already. - -And I feel sure that I have some information that you don't know about, -and there are some people involved. - -I also request that after my testimony, that Marina Oswald will be -subpenaed--not subpenaed but will then testify again, if you see fit. -And I believe that I have contrary testimony to her testimony that -would make it necessary for her to be recalled. - -I ask that that be granted. - -The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mrs. Oswald, of course you have no power of -subpena, and we have no power to give you the power of subpena. But you -may be sure that if your evidence produces anything that is critical -to this investigation, that we will pursue it to the end, in order to -determine the weight of the testimony for our final report. You may be -sure of that. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I appreciate that. - -The CHAIRMAN. But as to how we do it, or when we do it, you will just -have to leave that to the Commission. - -Mrs. OSWALD. You will give me the assurance that these people I name, -regardless of title--I am liable to name some very important people---- - -The CHAIRMAN. No, we cannot give you any assurance, because we don't -know---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. I see no reason, then, for my testimony. - -The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mrs. Oswald--you cannot commit us to subpenaing -anybody. We don't know. You are talking to us, and we are in the dark. -You cannot commit this Commission to doing something that might be -improper, it might not even be helpful in any way, shape, or form. The -Commission will be reasonable in every respect. We have no desire to -protect anyone. We have no desire to injure you or anyone else in this -matter. And certainly you ought to have some confidence in a commission -that is appointed by the President, and not try to tie our hands in a -way that would be contrary to the manner in which commissions normally -proceed. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Now, Mr. Warren, you made a statement that you in no -way--I cannot quote your words--intimidate me. But you did not include -my son. My son is being accused of the murder of President Kennedy. And -I think that my son should be considered in this. He is dead. But we -can show cause that my son is not the assassin of President Kennedy. -And so I would like my son--he is the main object of the Presidential -Commission, is he not, sir? - -The CHAIRMAN. No, no, he is not, Mrs. Oswald. The purpose of this -Commission is to determine what the facts are in the assassination of -President Kennedy. - -It is not an accusation against your son. There was an accusation -against your son in the Texas courts. That is an entirely different -proceeding. - -We are here to do justice and be fair to everyone concerned in this -matter. And I assure you that that is our main and our only purpose in -serving on this Commission. None of us cherish this responsibility. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I am sure, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. And the only satisfaction we can derive from it is to be -fair to all concerned. - -And I assure you that is our objective in the matter. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I do not mean to imply that this Commission will not be -fair. I know about the men on the Commission. And they are all very -fine men, including yourself, Chief Justice Warren. If I have implied -that, I will--will now say I do not imply. But I do state a fact that -I do not think that you can come to a true conclusion. I want that for -record. - -Now, I am going to produce--and this will be a fact--and this is on the -basis---- - -The CHAIRMAN. Now, we have finished the three things that you are -talking about, and we are going to your testimony? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is in connection with this, Chief Justice Warren. And -I think it is very important to present a picture. - -And then if you allow me these few minutes, I will be through. - -Is that satisfactory, sir? - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes, go right ahead. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Now, I believe you mentioned that you would not have the -power or give me the power to subpena them. But if I could produce the -facts in my story, then I believe we should have these people called. - -Now, here is an article in the Washington paper--and the date happens -to be torn off, but I can get it--that Senator John G. Tower had made. -And I have outlined here---- - -The CHAIRMAN. I wonder, Mrs. Oswald--before we get into any details of -this kind, let's settle this situation as to whether the Commission -will say to you now that it will subpena anyone you ask. - -I must say to you that you cannot put that burden on the Commission. -The Commission will have to exercise its own discretion as to who it -subpenas and when. - -Mr. DOYLE. Mr. Chief Justice, may I say something? I was wondering -if whether or not what Mrs. Oswald is addressing respectfully to the -Commission is her confidence that if in the course of her own testimony -and the actual facts that she is producing, she expresses confidence -that if those facts recommend the subpena of additional witnesses, or -the recall of others, she expresses her confidence that that would be -done, if the facts she outlines so require. - -The CHAIRMAN. She may be very sure of that, as I tried to tell her. - -But the only thing--I would not want Mrs. Oswald to leave here and say, -"I gave the Commission a list of witnesses and they did not call all of -them." - -Now, that is a matter that will have to be in the province of the -Commission, and not in the province of a witness. - -And I say that without any combative--not in a combative spirit. -Because, as your counsel states, I think we are not far apart on it, -Mrs. Oswald. - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. And I appreciate the fact---- - -The CHAIRMAN. But fairness will have to judge our actions. And we -propose to be fair. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Now, I guess I am a very stubborn person. I am a very -aggressive person, as you know by now. - -I would like--this would be just 2 minutes, and it would bring a point, -and then I would be through, if I may. - -The CHAIRMAN. Very well. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Senator Towner has dates here, and the main part of the -article is that he had received a letter from the State Department. - -Now, I would like--I have information from the State Department, I have -documents from the State Department which is contrary to the dates and -contrary to Senator Tower's public statement. - -And I would like to have the letter that he has from the State -Department, and the name of the man that wrote it, because it is -contrary to what I have. - -He could have been, to use an American slang, shooting his mouth off, -because he said if he went to Russia let him stay there, I would not -help him--is what he said. - -But then again he may have this very important letter from this man in -the State Department, which is incorrect, from what I have. - -Now, he claims--and if you would like to read that--and that is what I -was trying to bring out. - -The CHAIRMAN. I think you will have to leave that to the wisdom of the -Commission and its sense of fair play, and what is necessary, all facts -considered. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I have had my say, gentlemen, and I will most -graciously continue. - -However. I am not too happy that I will not have counsel for my son, -because I believe my son would also be entitled to counsel. - -The CHAIRMAN. Very well, you may continue. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Now, I will start---- - -The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, may I introduce Congressman Ford, also a -member of the Commission. - -Now, Mrs. Oswald--Mr. Lee Rankin will be in charge of the hearing from -this point on. He is our General Counsel, as you know. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, will you proceed to produce the papers and -tell us about them, and then I will ask the Commission after we get -them, to permit us to substitute copies, and in accordance with your -request we will let you be present at the time we make the photostats. - -The CHAIRMAN. You may start to tell your story in your own way. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I have three different stories. I understand from Mr. -Rankin's letter that my life is to be told from the very start, and so -is Lee's life, from the very start. So which will I start first? - -I believe it would be easier for me and of more benefit to the counsel -if I would continue with one life, the whole story, and then continue -with the--whichever way you would suggest I do it. - -Mr. RANKIN. If you could start out and tell us within the period that -Lee Oswald returned from the Soviet Union on, whatever you know about -it, in your own way, and then we will go back to the other matters -later. - -Is that all right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--anything is just fine. I am willing to help in -any way possible. - -I wanted to state it clearly in the beginning. - -I received a speedletter from the State Department stating that Lee -would leave Moscow, and how he would leave and arrive in New York--on -June 13, 1962. I was on a case in Crowell, Tex. I am a practical nurse. -And I was taking care of a very elderly woman, whose daughter lived in -Fort Worth, Tex. - -So I was not able to leave and meet Lee. - -Robert, his brother, met him, and Lee went to Robert's home. - -Approximately about a week later--I could not stand it any more--I -called the daughter and had her come to take care of her mother, and -took 3 days off, and went to Fort Worth to see Lee and Marina. - -Marina is a beautiful girl. And I said to Lee, "Marina, she doesn't -look Russian. She is beautiful." - -He says, "Of course not. That is why I married her, because she looks -like an American girl." - -I asked her where he had met her, and he said he met her at a social -function, a community function. - -I said, "You know, Lee, I am getting ready--I was getting ready to -write a book on your so-called defection. - -"I had researched it and came to Washington in 1961, and, by the way, -asked to see President Kennedy, because I had a lot of extenuating -circumstances at the time because of the defection." - -He said, "Mother, you are not going to write a book." - -I said, "Lee, don't tell me what to do. I cannot write the book now, -because, Honey, you are alive and back." - -But, at the time, I had no way of knowing whether my son was living or -dead, and I planned to write the book. - -"But don't tell me what to do. It has nothing to do with you and -Marina. It is my life, because of your defection." - -He said, "Mother, I tell you you are not to write the book. They could -kill her and her family." - -That was in the presence of my son Robert Oswald and his wife. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us about what date that was? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Let's see. Lee arrived in New York on June 13, and--now, -I have a letter stating, from Lee, that he is arriving in New York on -June 13th. However, he plans to go to Washington for a day or two. So -I have no way of knowing, Mr. Rankin, whether he came straight from -New York to my son's home, or if he stayed in New York and came to -Washington a few days. - -But I have the letter stating that. - -But I have no way of knowing. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was this conversation within about a week of the time that -he came back? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, approximately. That is correct. - -So I stayed in Fort Worth 2 or 3 days. I did not live at Robert's home. -I rented a motel. In fact, the lady of the mother I was taking care -of paid my motel expenses while I was in Fort Worth. But I went there -every day. - -While I was there--Marina is a pharmacist. I have a medical book, and -Lee was saying that he was losing his hair, and how he had become bald, -because of the cold weather in Texas. - -So I got the medical book, looking up baldness, and the treatment for -baldness, and Marina came by and she read the prescriptions. - -So I said, "Lee, she reads English," and he said, "Mother, that is -Latin, of course, that is universal." - -So because it was a medical conversation, Lee said he had an operation -while in the Soviet Union on his throat. - -I am sorry--but all of the confusion of myself being there and the -daughter-in-law, the Russian girl--that was never gone into. That is -all I know. - -But that was also said in the presence of my son Robert--that he had an -operation on his throat while in the Soviet Union. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he say when that was? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; that was all that was said. - -As I say, with all the confusion of Marina, we were so thrilled with -Marina, with the children and all, there was quite a bit of confusion. - -Now, I left, and I went back to Crowell on my job. - -While I was in Robert's home, Lee immediately was out job-hunting. And -I felt very bad about that, because they had come 10,000 miles by ship, -by plane, and by train, which was an awfully hard trip with a young -baby, and I thought he should at least have a week or two before he -would look for work. - -But I want you to know that immediately Lee was out looking for work. - -And this is the time that Lee had gone to the public stenographer, made -the statement that he was writing a book. - -You probably have that information. It was highly publicized. - -I, myself, gave him the $10 that he gave the public stenographer. - -I bought Marina clothes, and brought clothes to her while at my -daughter-in-law's house, bought diapers for the baby. And Marina had -more clothes when she arrived in the States than I now have. - -So what I am trying to state is as we go further into the story, it has -been stated that my son neglected Marina, and that she didn't have any -clothes. The Russian people have stated that all throughout Texas in -the papers. And that is not true. I happen to know, because I, myself, -bought Marina three dresses. And my daughter-in-law bought dresses, and -my daughter-in-law's sister, which I would like to have as a witness, -bought clothes for Marina. So there is this conflicting testimony. - -Mr. RANKIN. What daughter-in-law was that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Robert's wife. And Robert's wife's sister, who is a -schoolteacher, bought clothes for Marina. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is she married? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. She is a schoolteacher. She is single. - -So that story there is incorrect. - -So then I went back to Crowell, Tex., and I was not satisfied in my -mind because the way they lived. They only had a two-bedroom house. As -you know. Robert has two children. And there was another couple with -another child. - -So Lee immediately began looking for work. - -So I decided that I would quit this job and help the children all I -could. So I did. I gave notice. And I came to Fort Worth, and I rented -an apartment at the Rotary Apartments, which is on West 7th and Summit. -And Lee and Marina then came to live with me. - -Mr. RANKIN. How long did they stay at Robert's? - -Mrs. OSWALD. They stayed at Robert's approximately 2 or 3 weeks, sir. - -So then they came to live with me. - -While there, I said to Lee--I am ahead of my story. - -Lee and Marina had sent me wonderful gifts, and I have the gifts, -from Russia. A box of tea, very fine tea, a Russian scarf, pure linen -napkins, embroidered with my initial, a box of candy for Christmas that -has a Russian Santa Claus on it. - -I said to Lee. "Lee, I want to know one thing. Why is it you decided to -return back to the United States when you had a job in Russia, and as -far as I know you seemed to be pretty well off, because of the gifts -that you have sent me. And you are married to a Russian girl, and she -would be better off in her homeland than here. I want to know." - -He said, "Mother, not even Marina knows why I have returned to the -United States." - -And that is all the information I ever got out of my son. - -"Not even Marina knows why I have returned to the United States." - -Mr. RANKIN. How did you get along when you were there together with -Marina and your son? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, that was a very happy month, Mr. Rankin. Marina -was very happy. She had the best home, I believe, that she had ever -had. And Lee--I was taking Lee out to work every morning, looking for -work, through the unemployment commission, and ads in the paper. And -I was taking care of the baby and doing the cooking, and Marina was -helping clean up. And she would wash the dishes. And Lee and Marina -would go for long walks every afternoon, and I would take care of the -baby. Marina would sing around the house, and watch the television and -comment on different programs, programs that she had seen in Russia. - -She knew--there was a picture with Gregory Peck, and she said, "Mama, I -know Gregory Peck." - -And she was singing Santa Lucia. - -And here again in my stupidity, I said to Lee, "Lee, she knows English, -she is singing Santa Lucia." - -He said, "Mother, that is an international song." - -Marina was very happy, and I was very happy to have the children. - -And Lee desperately looked for work. - -He was offered several good jobs from the State Employment Office of -Texas. One in particular, I remember he said that he regretted not -getting the job, but they told him because his wife was not an American -citizen, that they would not be able to hire him. - -He met obstacles all the way. - -This one particular woman at the Texas employment agency took an -interest in Lee and went out all the way to give Lee clues for jobs. -And I, myself, took Lee job-hunting every day. - -And it is through the employment office that he became employed 3 weeks -later, after he was in my home, by the Leslie Manufacturing Co. in Fort -Worth, which is a sheetmetal place. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, while Marina was living with you there, and your son, -and the little baby---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. June. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you talk to Marina, and did she speak English to you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, she spoke English, Mr. Rankin. Like she would -say--and we used the dictionary when she didn't understand. - -She would say--I would say, "Marina, you now nurse your baby." - -"Yes, Mama. The time." - -Or "No time." - -With motions--"no time. Mama." - -She spoke English. - -Mr. RANKIN. What I would like to find out for the Commission, if we -can, in regard to speaking English, did you think she was able to talk -English fluently, or did you think she was in the process of learning -it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. She was in the process of learning. But she understood -more than she could talk. - -And I have a letter from Lee stating that Marina also speaks and -understands French, that she had learned at grammar school. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you know French? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. So you could not tell? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I could not tell. - -And I didn't think a thing of it. - -And, of course. Marina and Lee spoke Russian all the time, even in -front of me. - -And you asked about this time--it was a very happy time. They would sit -at the table. They were playing a game, and I said to Lee, "What is it -you are doing?" - -Because they were always talking in Russian. - -"Mother, we are playing a game which is similar to American -tic-tac-toe." - -And they also taught each other. They had books. They are both -children--very intelligent and studious. Lee was teaching Marina -English, and Marina was teaching him some things that he wanted to know -about Russia, in my home. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, you were saying that he got this job at the Leslie -Manufacturing Co. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -And then his first pay--he kept his first pay. And then the second pay, -he rented the home on Mercedes Street, which is the south side, and -approximately 10 blocks from where I lived at the Rotary Apartment, and -approximately 10 blocks from where he was to work. - -Lee had no car, and Lee walked to and back from work, which helped to -save money. - -Now, you must understand that this couple had no money, and had -nothing. I gave them some dishes, and some silverware, and just a few -little things that I could help out with. - -But Lee did have the first week's pay. - -And then the second week's pay. And he rented this home which was -$59.50 a month. It was a nice little one-bedroom furnished duplex, in a -nice neighborhood, convenient to his work. - -But then that leaves the boy broke. - -I brought food into the house. I never like to talk about the other -members of the family, because to me that is speculation. But I know -that Robert brought food, also, in the house. And they were not in -want. Marina nursed June. - -Now, it has been stated in the paper that the Russian friends have gone -into the home and they are talking about this home, and found that they -were in desperate straits, that there was no food in the house, and no -milk for the baby. - -I say Marina nursed the baby. - -They may have walked into this home, where maybe they didn't have at -that particular time any milk in the box. Maybe Lee was going to bring -groceries home. But I know they were not in destitute circumstances in -that respect. - -They had no money and didn't have anything. I brought groceries, and I -brought a roll of scotch toweling. I had bought two packs and I gave -them one. - -And the next day when I went by, the scotch toweling was in the -kitchen, on a coat hanger, with a nail. - -And I think that is real nice, a young couple that doesn't have any -money, that they can use their imagination, and put up the scotch -toweling to use on a coat hanger. They are just starting married life -in a new country. And they have no money. But here is the point. The -Russian friends, who were established, and had cars and fine homes, -could not see this Russian girl doing without. They are the ones that -interfered. They are the ones that interfered, and were not happy the -way this Russian girl--and within a short time, then, this Russian girl -had a playpen, had a sewing machine, had a baby bed, and a Taylor Tot. -And this all came out in the paper--that they supplied this to the -girl, because she was in need of these things. - -I say it is not necessary for a young couple to have a playpen for a -baby. We have millions and millions of American couples in the United -States that cannot afford playpens for the children. I, myself, have -been in that position. - -So I think those things were immaterial. - -The point I am trying to bring out is that these Russian friends have -interfered in their lives, and thought that the Russian girl should -have more than necessary. - -And my son could not supply these things at that particular time. He -was just starting to work. - -This, to me, is very strong in my mind, that there are a lot of Russian -friends that were made immediately, that have interfered and have -publicly stated--a circle of friends, approximately eight or nine, -that would not give their names in the paper, they were interviewed by -Mr. Tinsley of the Star Telegram--that has downed Lee for every way -possible. - -So these are the Russian friends who are established with cars, and -didn't think that the Russian girl was getting a good break in America. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were there any differences between you and Lee Oswald or -Marina while they were in your home? Did you have any quarrels? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, no, sir, none at all. - -Now, there was one thing. And I will point out the character of my son, -and what I am saying about the playpen and so on. - -Now, this was all done within a few weeks time. They moved there--they -left my home in July, and they moved there in August, and then they -moved to Dallas in October. So it was in this period of time that all -these things were accumulated from Russian friends. - -And no man likes other people giving--interfering in his way of living, -and giving all these things to his wife that he himself cannot supply. -This is a human trait, I would say. - -Now, I want to bring this story up. - -I could not afford to buy a bed for my grandchild, because I have -worked prior to this for nothing. The job that I had quit I was making -$25 a week, gentlemen--a 24-hour live-in job. The jobs prior to this I -worked for $10 a week, 7 days a week, a live-in job. - -Because of Lee's so-called defection, and my accident, the way I was -treated, left destitute, without any medical or compensation, I decided -to devote my life to humanity, and I became a practical nurse. And I -have worked for $5 a week, living in the place. - -So I had no money, I had $200 saved, when I came to Fort Worth, and -that is what I rented the house with, and brought the food with. - -So then that leaves me broke. - -So I gave up a job in order to help this girl. - -So to get back now to the home, Mr. Rankin--we had no quarrels. This -month was beautiful. Marina was very happy. - -I had the car and the television, and we went around. - -As I say, they were free to go and come like they want. They would take -long walks. - -If you are not familiar with Fort Worth, Tex., from the Rotary -Apartment to Leonard Brothers is approximately 3 miles, and they used -to walk there, and they came home--Marina came home with a Cancan -petticoat and some hose that Lee bought here with a few dollars that -Robert and I had given him--he spent on his wife. - -So that was a very happy time. - -Now, when they lived in the home on Mercedes Street that he rented, I -was employed as an OB, a nurse, in Fort Worth, Tex., at an OB's salary. -And that salary, gentlemen, will astonish you. I worked, lived in, for -$9 a day, 24 hours duty. - -On an OB case--I am very busy with the baby all day long because -people are coming in and out, giving presents and so on. I have a 10 -o'clock feeding for the baby. And it is approximately 11 o'clock before -I am through and in bed. The baby is up again at 2 o'clock. It is -approximately 3:30 before I am through again with the baby. The baby -is up again at 5:30. And it is approximately--then my day starts. I am -stressing the point that I worked for $9 a day during all that, a $9 a -day job. So that is 7 days a week, $63. - -Now, this is the first time I have had a nurse's salary, I want you to -understand. - -So with my first pay, I bought Marina clothes, I bought the baby -clothes, and I brought food into this home. I went all out for Marina. -I just love her, and was just thrilled to death with her. And I bought -a highchair. I could not afford a bed, because I didn't have enough -money to buy the bed. So that is why I bought the clothes and things of -that sort. But I bought the baby a highchair. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did Marina treat you then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Fine. But then Marina was not satisfied with the things -that I bought her. - -As you see, the way I am properly dressed--I don't say I mean to be the -height of fashion, but I have--before becoming a nurse I was in the -business world, and I have been a manager in the merchandise field. So -I do know clothes. - -And I bought her some shorts. And she wanted short shorts, like the -Americans. She pictured America in her mind evidently. - -And I bought her a little longer shorts. - -And "I no like, Mama." - -I said, "Marina, you are a married woman and it is proper for you to -have a little longer shorts than the younger girls." - -"No, Mama." - -And I will stress this--that Marina was never too happy--"No, Mama, no -nice, no, Mama, no this." - -That was perfectly all right. I thought she didn't understand our ways. -I didn't feel badly about it. - -I am going to get back to the highchair, to give you a picture of my -son. - -I bought the highchair and brought it over there, and Lee was not at -home. And Marina didn't know what a highchair was. And she told me in -Russian. I said, "How do they feed babies in Russia?" By this time, -June was 4 or 5 months old, just getting ready to sit up. - -"We put baby on lap, Mama, and baby eat on lap." - -And so a highchair to me, I think, was new to Marina. - -So approximately 2 or 3 days later I go over there and Lee says to me, -"Now, Mother, I want you to understand right here and now--I want you -to stop giving all these gifts to me and my wife. I want to give Marina -whatever is necessary, the best I can do. I want you to keep your money -and take care of yourself, because today or tomorrow you take sick, and -you spend all your money on us, I will have to take care of you." Which -makes very good sense. - -But he strongly put me in my place about buying things for his wife -that he himself could not buy. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I agreed with him. And I said--the shock of it--I realize -what a mother-in-law I was in interfering. And, of course, that is -part that we mothers-in-law do unconsciously. We try to help out our -children, and in a way we are interfering in their life. They would -rather have their own way of doing things. - -And I realize that I had interfered, and the boy wanted to take care of -his wife. So no more was said about it. - -I go into many homes, being a nurse, and I see this problem also, where -the mothers and mothers-in-law bring things, and the men strongly -object to it--they would rather do without, and have their wife do -without, and they themselves be the master of the home. - -So then I realized I was being a foolish mother-in-law, and that he was -perfectly right. - -I should save my money and take care of myself. He had a wife and baby -to take care of. If I didn't have any money, he might have to take care -of me. So I agreed with that. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did Marina say anything about that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, no, Marina didn't know--unless she understood the -English part. I have no way of knowing, you see. - -Mr. RANKIN. All right. Tell us what happened after that, then. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Now, let me think just a minute. - -This, gentlemen, is very emotional to me, because it is a humanitarian -side that I am trying to bring out. Material things are involved to me -that are of no consequence. And I am trying to point out the fact that -these Russian people seemed to think that the Russian girl should have -material things. - -And all through my story, I can prove things that have happened of this -nature. - -Yes--I will continue. - -I was on the OB case for very wealthy people. I then became a nurse and -by word of mouth I had worked in the finest homes in Fort Worth at this -salary. I have worked for Ammon Carter, Jr., who is the owner of the -Star Telegram. I have worked in his home. I have worked for Dr. Ross -seven weeks in his home. I have worked for Mayor Vandergriff. I took -care of his last baby in his home. And I can go on and on. - -So I have been employed in over 200 homes at this salary. So I know -the difference of working in very poor homes, people on welfare, that -I worked in, and then working in the rich homes. So I have experience, -gentlemen, is what I am trying to say. - -So I mentioned to Mrs. Rosenthal that Lee and Marina didn't have a baby -bed, and Lee didn't have work clothes. He had had his suits from the -United States yet with him when he went to Russia. But he needed work -clothes since he got this job. - -She said, "Mrs. Oswald, what build is he?" - -And I told her. And he was about the same build as her husband. - -So she got out a lot of work clothes that her husband didn't want. -However, she asked me $10 for 12 pairs of used pants. And I would not -buy--give her $12. Here is a very wealthy woman, and she knows the -story. And she knows that I have no money. And yet she expects me to -pay for his used clothing. And so I have this principle about me. And I -did not buy the used clothing, the clothing for Lee. - -Now, Lee is having a birthday, which is October 18th. And this is -approximately the 6th or 7th of October. - -Now, this Sunday, October 12th, I went--this is very important, -gentleman--I went to this home and I was there--I asked to get off an -hour or two to see the children, from this OB case at the Rosenthals. I -went to see my son and daughter-in-law, and they were nicely dressed. -And while there, about 10 minutes, a young couple came into the home, -approximately the same age as Marina and Lee, and they had a little -boy who I would say was about 6 or 8 months older than June. The woman -put the little boy in the playpen with June, and June went to touch -him, and Marina got up and said, "Oh, no, hurt baby." She spoke in -English. So I said, "Do you speak Russian?" to this couple. And they -said, "No, we don't. We are Americans. But my father"--and I will have -to say this--"or grandfather"--I do not know which--"is a Russian, from -Siberia, and that is how we know Marina and Lee." - -So the conversation was general. And in the general conversation--now, -this couple was from Dallas, visiting my family in Fort Worth. The -conversation was general. - -And she said, "Lee, my father has this place of business in Dallas, and -will offer you a job in Dallas." - -I said, "Lee, I didn't know that you wanted to give up your job and -work in Dallas, because the Rosenthals that I am working for, her -father owns the meatpacking house in Dallas, and she has told me that -he employs hundreds of people, and if ever any time that you are in -need, to go see her father, that she would be sure that he would give -you a job." - -So, gentlemen, this was on a Sunday. - -I made coffee, and the house was in order. There was nothing packed. - -Lee got paid on a Friday, from the Leslie Sheetmetal Works. - -Monday Lee and Marina packed their belongings and went to Dallas. - -The point I am bringing, is that Lee had no idea of quitting his job in -Fort Worth, because he was not packed. This was on a Sunday. And this -couple offered a job in Dallas. And their father, her grandfather, was -a Russian, and Lee went to Dallas on a Monday, and worked for the Arts -Graphic. I do not know--but you probably have that information. His -very first job there. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he was discharged by the Leslie people? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, he was not discharged by the Leslie people. He -just didn't show up. He was paid on a Friday, and that Monday he did -not show up for work, because he came to Dallas. - -The point I am bringing out is this job was also offered to Lee from a -Russian father. He had no idea of moving. There was nothing packed. - -Now, I understand that my son Robert helped him to move. And the way -I know this--I went there on a Tuesday, and the children had gone, -because they had left on a Monday. So then I went to Robert's home, and -Robert was at work. So I was all upset. They didn't tell me they were -leaving. - -I said to Veda. "Marina and Lee are no longer there, the house is -vacant." - -Mr. RANKIN. You spoke someone's name. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Veda, V-e-d-a. Robert's wife is Veda. I said they had to -move yesterday. - -She said "Robert helped them to move, and they gave us the food in the -refrigerator." - -I said it came up all of a sudden, and I told the story about the -couple being there. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know the name of that couple? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. And I have not been able to find out. - -I have asked Mrs. Paine recently, and she said she does not remember. -And the night I was in Mrs. Paine's home, I asked Marina and Mrs. -Paine, and they did say a name. Marina would know the name of the -couple. But I do not have that information. - -Mr. RANKIN. And was he the owner of this business? - -Mrs. OSWALD. The father was the owner of the business. And this was an -American couple. And they did not speak Russian, either one. The father -was a Russian, or the grandfather--that owned this place of business. - -Mr. RANKIN. I think you said the grandfather before. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I said either the father or the grandfather. I cannot be -sure. - -It was the girl's father or grandfather, and not the boy. - -So I told my daughter-in-law about this, and she knew about it. - -So now here is something that I would like to have my daughter-in-law -as a witness. - -It has been stated in the paper that my son was giving Marina black -eyes and possibly had beat her. And this is by the Russian people. - -Now, living in this home in Fort Worth, I had gone by several times I -had a day off, and Marina was not at home. - -I said to her, "Marina, Mama come to see you yesterday. You no home." -She didn't answer. - -I said, "Marina, Mama come see you. You no home, Marina." - -"No. I go to lady's house to take English lessons." - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who she was speaking of? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know for a fact. But my son Robert will know. -And that is why it is important to call him. That is what I am trying -to say, Chief Justice Warren. These others will know this part of my -story, give you the facts. - -I am assuming it is Mr. Peter Gregory's wife that started these -lessons. But Marina was taking English lessons. - -Now, they lived at a corner house, and there is Carol Street, and -opposite Carol Street is a parking lot for Montgomery Ward. They live -approximately two blocks from Montgomery Ward. So I had gone by, as I -am stating, several times. You have to understand--this is just 6 or 7 -weeks that they are in this home. - -Mr. RANKIN. You say "they." I am sorry to interrupt. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Marina and Lee, in this home. - -Then Marina was not home. I could not understand where so fast that -they could have so many friends, that this Russian girl didn't speak -English and know her way about, could be gone all day long. That -worried me. - -So I sat in the car on Montgomery Ward's parking lot, where I could see -the house, because I wanted to see who Marina was going to come home -with. - -The door was open. I went in the house and no one was there. - -By this time, I was wondering how she could be gone all the time, being -a stranger in town. - -I sat in the car all day long. She didn't show up. - -Finally, I went home, had my supper, left my apartment, and on the way -going back to the house Lee was leaving Montgomery Ward. - -Now, they did not have a phone. I am just assuming--this is not a -fact--that Lee went to a telephone trying to locate his wife, because -I was coming from Montgomery Ward. He got in the car with me, and we -had about a block to go. I entered the home with Lee, and I said, "Lee -where is Marina?" Of course, I knew that she wasn't home, because I had -stayed in the car all day. - -He said, "Oh, I guess she is out with some friends." - -"Would you like me to fix your supper?" - -"No, she will probably be home in time to fix my supper?" - -So I left. I am not going to interfere in their married life. But I -did offer to fix him supper. And I went back to make sure Marina still -wasn't home. - -I walked in the home with my son. - -So approximately 2 days later--not approximately, but 2 days later I -went to the home and my son was reading, he read continuously--in the -living room, and Marina was in the bedroom, I could not see Marina. And -I said to Lee, "Tell Marina, I am here." - -Marina made no appearance. - -So I went into the bedroom, and she was nursing June with her head -down. And I started to talk. And she still had her head down. And I -came around to the front and I saw Marina with a black eye. - -Now, gentlemen, I don't think any man should hit his wife, as is stated -in the paper, or beat his wife. But I will say this. There may be times -that a woman needs to have a black eye. I am not condoning the act. -But I strongly am saying that this girl was not home. And this man was -working. And I saw, myself, that this man came home and didn't have any -food. This couple doesn't have a maid or anyone to give this working -man food. And I think it was her duty to be home and have his supper -ready. - -That is a little thing, maybe. But to me it shows the character of what -I am trying to bring out. - -And so there may have been reasons that the children fought. And I also -know that many, many couples fight, of our finest people, because I -made it clear before that I have worked in these very fine homes, and -have seen very fine people fight. I have seen a gentleman strike his -wife in front of me. We know this happens. It is not a nice thing to -do. But it happens in our finest homes. I am not condoning the act. -But I am telling you that there probably was reasons, we will say. The -woman has a black eye, and he is a louse--he gave her a black eye, -but we must consider why did he give her a black eye. We always must -consider the second aspect of the case. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did she take the baby with her when you looked---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she took--always the baby was with her. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask Marina how she got the black eye or anything -about it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, in the bedroom. I was shocked. - -"Mama--Lee." Just like that. - -So I went in the living room and I said, "Lee, what do you mean by -striking Marina?" - -He said, "Mother, that is our affair." - -And so that ended. I wasn't going to interfere any further. - -Now, this has been publicly stated by the Russian friends, that he -beat his wife. I don't know if he did beat his wife. I happened to see -the black eye. I know that he hit her and gave her a black eye. Marina -said so, and my son has said so. But how many times does this happen, I -don't know. - -But I am trying to point out that I don't approve of it. But I am -trying to point out that everything is not according to Hoyle, as we -say in our American way of life. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is there any other time that you recall that you saw that -she had bruises or a black eye? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; that is the only time. - -And then the children moved to Dallas. - -Now, this will end that part of the story. - -I have accepted and I have the public papers, in 1959, when Lee went -to Russia--I made a statement that as an individual I thought he had a -right to make up his own mind in the decision to do what he wanted. I -am of that nature, because, gentlemen, today or tomorrow I may decide -to go to Russia, I will go. We are taught that in America, that we have -the right to do what we want as an individual. So I publicly stated in -1959 that Lee had a right, if he wanted to live in that country. And I -think it was courage that he did so, instead of staying in America and -talking about America, and living here and downing his country. It took -courage to go and live where he wanted to live. - -I was criticized highly for making that statement. And it is published -in 1959--as far back as that. - -So I will get back now to when the children left. - -They did not tell me they had left. - -So I accepted the fact that my son Lee did not want me to know that he -was in Dallas. - -Why I accepted the fact is because of Lee's so-called defection. - -I have had it very hard, Mr. Rankin, and gentlemen--I have lost jobs, -I was in a position, if I was in a home and television was on, and -something political was on television, and the people commented, I -felt it was necessary to keep quiet, because of it. Because of the -defection I thought if I would express my views they might think I was -a Communist like my son was supposed to be. And in many a home I have -been in--after three or four days they would tell me my services were -not needed. - -I cannot say, sure it was because of Lee's defection. However, I feel -sure that it is, because I am a respected person, and a very good -nurse, as has been stated in the paper. And my jobs were gotten from -word of mouth. - -But you must understand that I deal with a lot of people. So naturally -it is natural that some of them would feel resentful against me because -of my son defecting to Russia and presumably being a Communist. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever find out where Marina was that day that you -tried to locate her? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, no sir, that ended that. - -So I respected my son's wish, since he didn't want to tell me where he -was in Dallas, that I would accept that fact. - -Now, gentlemen, this may seem hard that I accept these things. But -it is not. I am self-supporting. I have a life of my own. And if Lee -decides that that is the way he wants it, I am not going to grieve and -worry about it. I have to get my sleep in order to work. I have the -ability of accepting things, the ability granted me by the grace of -God, because of my difficulty in life. I have been a widow. I have had -many, many obstacles, and I have had to face them. And my faith gets -stronger. I do accept things. - -As now, I accept the death of my son. I don't brood over that. I have -that ability of doing that. - -So I just accepted the fact--when Lee gets ready to let me know where -he is, fine--up until that time, it is his privilege to do what he -wants. - -Now, that is the last contact I have had with Marina and Lee until -the news broke in Dallas that Lee was picked up because of the -assassination of President Kennedy. - -Mr. RANKIN. Tell us about this period you were talking about, when -he went to Dallas. Was that before or after the time he went to New -Orleans? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That was before the time, sir--he lived--from my -apartment, the Rotary Apartments, when Lee got the job he lived on -Mercedes Street from the end of July, I would say, or the beginning of -September, until October, when he left to go to Dallas. - -Mr. RANKIN. What year was that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That was in 1963. - -Mr. RANKIN. You mean '62? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I am sorry--1962. And that was the last I had seen of -Marina and Lee. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever find where they were in Dallas? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I explained before that I made no attempt. I -thought when they get ready to let me know, that is fine. Up until -then, I had to do my own work and take care of myself. And I do respect -other people's privileges. If that is the way they want it, fine. - -When they get ready to let me know, I will welcome them. If not, I will -go about my own business. - -Mr. RANKIN. Had you learned they had gone to New Orleans? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I had not learned of that until after the assassination. I -knew nothing, I had no contact with them. - -So, then, the next thing we should start then would be the Dallas--the -assassination. - -Mr. RANKIN. Whatever you know. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I was on a case in a rest home, and I had a 3 to -11 shift. I was dressed, ready to go to work. I was watching--I am a -little ahead of my story. - -I watched the television in the morning before I was dressed. And -Richard Nixon was in Dallas, and he made a television appearance -approximately 2 hours before President Kennedy was to arrive in Dallas. -And, as a layman, I remember saying, "Well, the audacity of him, to -make this statement against President Kennedy just an hour or two -before his arrival in Dallas." - -And then I had my lunch, and I dressed, with my nurse's uniform on, to -go to work, for the 3 to 11 shift. And I have to leave home at 2:30. So -I had a little time to watch the Presidential procession. - -And while sitting on the sofa, the news came that the President was -shot. And there was a witness on television, a man and a little girl on -television. However, I could not continue to watch it. I had to report -to work. - -So I went in the car, and approximately seven blocks away I turned the -radio on in the car. I heard that Lee Harvey Oswald was picked up as a -suspect. - -I immediately turned the car around and came back home, got on the -telephone, called Acme Brick in Fort Worth, and asked where Robert was, -because he had been traveling, and I must get in touch with Robert -immediately, because his brother was picked up as a suspect in the -assassination. So they had Robert call me. - -Robert didn't know that Lee was picked up. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was this the day of the assassination? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, the day of the assassination, they picked Lee up. - -Mr. RANKIN. And 3 to 11--that is in the afternoon? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This was 2:30, because I was on my way to work, and I had -to be at work at 3 o'clock. - -Mr. RANKIN. Three in the afternoon is when you had to be at work? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, and it was 2:30 I heard the news and went back -home. - -I had Acme Brick call Robert to give him the news, and Robert called -me, and he had not heard his brother was picked up. - -Now, Robert is in Denton. So I called the Star Telegram, and asked -that--if they could possibly have someone escort me to Dallas, because -I realized I could not drive to Dallas. And they did. They sent two men -to escort me to Dallas. - -The name of one is Bob Shieffer, the other name I will have for you -gentlemen. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who are those? Are those reporters? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Star Telegram reporters, sent by the Star Telegram editor -to escort me to Dallas. - -Now, upon arriving in Dallas, I did not ask--I did not want to talk to -the police. I asked specifically to talk to FBI agents. My wish was -granted, I was sent into a room. I have to backtrack my story. - -The policemen do not know I am here--"I want to talk to FBI agents." - -Mr. RANKIN. What time of the day is this? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is approximately 3:30. So I am escorted into an -office, and two Brown FBI agents, they are brothers, I understand, and -there was another man that I do not know the name. - -Mr. RANKIN. By that you mean their names were Brown? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Their names were Brown. And I have the correct names, -also. But we were in this room, and I told them who I was. And I said, -"I want to talk with you gentlemen because I feel like my son is an -agent of the government, and for the security of my country, I don't -want this to get out." - -But, first, I said to them, "I want to talk to FBI agents from -Washington." - -"Mrs. Oswald, we are from Washington, we work with Washington." - -I said, "I understand you work with Washington. But I want officials -from Washington," and I believed they would be in town because of -protecting the President. - -I said, "I do not want local FBI men. What I have to say I want to say -to Washington men." - -Of course they wanted the news. They said, "Well, we work through -Washington." - -I said, "I know you do. But I would like Washington men." - -So I had no choice. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell them why you thought he was an agent? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I am coming to this. - -So I said, "I have information that"--I told him who I was. - -I said, "For the security of my country, I want this kept perfectly -quiet until you investigate. I happen to know that the State Department -furnished the money for my son to return back to the United States, and -I don't know if that would be made public what that would involve, and -so please will you investigate this and keep this quiet." - -Of course that was news to them. - -They left me sitting in the office. - -And I also told them that Congressman Jim Wright knew about this. - -"You can be sure we will question Jim Wright." - -And I gave them the names of the four men I had talked with while in -Washington. - -Would you like those four names now? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mrs. OSWALD. One is Mr. Boster, who was special counsel in charge of -Soviet affairs. - -One was Mr. Stanfield. I should know the names. - -Well, gentlemen, Mr. Doyle will see that I give you the names of these -men. I had it in a little card and carried it all these years from my -Washington trip and gave it to the FBI men to investigate. - -So they left me. - -Mr. RANKIN. When you say you understand that the State Department paid -your son's way back from the Soviet Union---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever learn that that was a loan? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I have the document to state that they loaned Lee the -money to come back. - -Mr. RANKIN. But you didn't know that at the time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. But I stated--you see, I was worried about the -security of my country. I didn't know if the public would find out--how -they would take the news that the State Department loaned him the -money, since now he is a Marxist and an accused assassin. - -I was worried about my country. And I didn't want the public to know. I -wanted the FBI, not the police, to know. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you know anything else that you told them about why you -thought he was an agent? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I didn't tell them anything. But they questioned me, -started to question me. - -One of them said, "You know a lot about your son. When was the last -time you were in touch with him?" - -That wasn't the Browns. That was the other man. - -I said, "I have not seen my son in a year." - -He said sarcastically, "Now, Mrs. Oswald, are we to believe you have -not been in touch with your son in a year? You are a mother." - -I said, "Believe what you want. But I have not been in touch with my -son in a year. My son did not want me involved. He has kept me out of -his activities. That is the truth, God's truth, that I have not seen my -son in a year." - -And the gentleman left, and I did not see them after that. - -They sent the stenographer that was in the outer office to sit with me, -and she started to question me. - -I said, "Young lady, I am not going to be questioned. You may just as -well make up your mind that I am just going to sit here. What I want, -if you will relay--have these two Star Telegram men come in here, -please. I would like to ask them something." - -So they came in. And I said, "Bob, I have rights and I want to see Lee." - -Of course the men didn't answer. - -But I sat in the office approximately 2 or 3 hours alone, gentlemen, -with this woman who came in and out. - -I said, "If you think you are going to question me or get information -from me, you are not." - -And I sat in the office 2 or 3 hours. - -Every now and then I would walk up to the outer corridor and say to -whoever was there, "Now, listen, I am getting tired of this. I want to -see Lee." - -Mr. RANKIN. What office was this? - -Mrs. OSWALD. The courthouse in Dallas. - -Mr. RANKIN. Whose office was it in? Do you know? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't know. It was a private office that lead--for -instance, it would be like in the corner, a glass-enclosed office. And -then you could see the outer corridor where the stenographers and the -police and everybody was. - -Mr. RANKIN. You don't know whose office it was? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not. So I sat there approximately 3 hours. -And I never did get to see Lee. - -So at 5:30--then Robert came in. And he was questioned by the FBI. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were you there when he was questioned? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. - -And I will state now emphatically that I have never been questioned by -the FBI or the Secret Service--never, gentlemen. If they can produce my -voice or anything, they can produce it. - -So then I was escorted into the office where Marina and Mrs. Paine was. -And, of course, I started crying right away, and hugged Marina. And -Marina gave me Rachel, whom I had never seen. I did not know I had a -second grandchild, until this very moment. So I started to cry. Marina -started to cry. And Mrs. Paine said, "Oh, Mrs. Oswald, I am so glad -to meet you. Marina has often expressed the desire to contact you, -especially when the baby was being born. But Lee didn't want her to." - -And I said, "Mrs. Paine, you spoke English. Why didn't you contact me?" - -She said Marina didn't know how to get in touch with me. - -She said, "Well, because of the way they lived, he lived in Dallas, -and came home to my home on weekends. I didn't feel like I wanted to -interfere." - -And she acted as--excuse me, gentlemen, but this is very, very -emotional. - -The CHAIRMAN. That is all right. - -Mrs. OSWALD. She acted as interpreter for Marina. We are in the -courthouse now, in the jailhouse. - -So her testimony, gentlemen, the testimony that the Dallas police have, -is the testimony of Mrs. Paine, that Marina assumed Lee had given her. - -Could we state now maybe it is not the correct testimony that Marina -gave--just one interpreter, and Marina's friend, is the testimony that -the Dallas police has. - -I have no way of knowing, and you have no way of knowing, gentlemen, -whether it is the correct testimony. - -So Mrs. Paine told me that she acted as interpreter. - -And I said, "I don't know what I am going to do. I want to stay in -Dallas and be near Lee, so that I can help with this situation as much -as possible." - -She said, "Mrs. Oswald, you are welcome in my home--if you care to -sleep on the sofa." - -I said, "Thank you very much, Mrs. Paine, I will accept your offer. I -will sleep on the floor in order to be near Dallas." - -So we left. We went to Mrs. Paine's home. - -I am going to say again I did not see my son. - -So--I had my nurse's uniform on for 3 days. - -Mr. RANKIN. What day was this at Mrs. Paine's? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This was the night of Friday, November 22d. We arrived -there approximately 6 o'clock. Upon entering the home, about 5 minutes -after I was in the home, there was a knock on the door. - -Now, this is a little vague. On the way leaving the courthouse we may -have been in the company of the two Life representatives. They may have -taken us to Mrs. Paine's home. I did not ask who was taking us to Mrs. -Paine's home, because I was holding my grandbaby and talking to Marina, -and sitting in the back of the car. And it didn't interest me at the -time how I was getting to Mrs. Paine's home. - -Why I am bringing this up was because after I was in her home, -about 5 minutes, there was a knock on the door, and these two Life -representatives entered the home. - -The name of the men, one is Allan Grant, and the other is Tommy -Thompson. - -And I was not introduced. - -Mr. RANKIN. Had you ever seen them before? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I had never seen them before. As I say, they could -have been the men driving the car. But I want you to understand at the -time I didn't notice that, because I was holding my new grandbaby, and -comforting my daughter-in-law, and talking to Mrs. Paine in the back -seat of the car. - -So Mrs. Paine sat on the floor. And she said to the photographer--he -had a camera in front of him--"Now, I hope you have good color film, -because I want good pictures." - -Mr. RANKIN. What time of the day was this? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This was approximately 6:30. We had just arrived in Mrs. -Paine's home--I would say 6 and 7 o'clock, approximately, between that -time. We are home 5 minutes when they knocked on the door. - -Mrs. Paine immediately says, "Gentlemen, I hope you have colored film -so we will have some good pictures." - -I didn't know who they were. - -But then I knew they were newsmen, because of her statement and the -camera. - -So Tommy Thompson started to interview Mrs. Paine. He said, "Mrs. -Paine, tell me, are Marina and Lee separated, since Lee lives in -Dallas?" - -She said, "No, they are a happy family. Lee lives in Dallas because -of necessity. He works in Dallas, and this is Irving, and he has no -transportation, and he comes every weekend to see his family." - -"Well," he said, "What type family man is he?" - -She said, "A normal family man. He plays with his children. Last night -he fed June. He watches television and just normal things." - -She went on. - -So he said, "Mrs. Paine, can you tell me how Lee got, the money to"--I -am sorry--"can you tell me how Lee was able to return back to the -United States financially?" - -She said, "Oh, yes, he saved the money to come back to the United -States." - -Now, while this little episode went on, I was fuming, gentlemen, -because I didn't want this type of publicity. I thought it was uncalled -for, immediately after the assassination, and the consequent arrest of -my son. - -But I was in Mrs. Paine's home. - -Now I had an opportunity to be gracious. I spoke up and I said--I am -ahead of myself. - -She answered that he saved the money. - -I spoke up and I said, "Now, Mrs. Paine, I am sorry. I am in your home. -And I appreciate the fact that I am a guest in your home. But I will -not have you making statements that are incorrect. Because I happen -to know you have made an incorrect statement. To begin with, I do not -approve of this publicity. And if we are going to have the life story -with Life magazine"--by that time I knew what it was--"I would like to -get paid. Here is my daughter-in-law with two small children, and I, -myself, am penniless, and if we are going to give this information, I -believe we should get paid for it." - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you think Mrs. Paine was trying to get paid for it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Possibly. But I do know this. It was prearranged. That -is the point that is important. That after a few hours time, the Life -representatives were invited to her home, into her home, because she -expected them, you see. - -Mr. RANKIN. You think she arranged it, then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, possibly with Marina's help. - -I do not know. It was arranged--I am positive--the way they entered the -home. She invited them in, without even introducing me. And immediately -said she hoped they had color film. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were they talking to each other, Marina, and Mrs. Paine, -while you were there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, they talked in Russian. And that is a difficult part. -I didn't know Russian. - -Then, with that, the Life representative got up and said, "Mrs. Oswald, -I will call my office and see what they think about an arrangement of -your life story." - -So he did call the office. He closed the door and called in private. -And nothing was said--in the living room. - -When I say nothing was said, it was between myself and the other -representative. Mrs. Paine was talking to my daughter-in-law in -Russian. I was talking to my daughter-in-law in English. It was a -regular general conversation, as far as I knew. - -He came out from the telephone conversation and said, no, that the -company would not allow him to pay for the story. What they would -do--they would pay our expenses while in Dallas, and our food and -expenses, hotel accommodation. - -So I told him that I would think about it. - -Now, they continued to hang around. And they were taking pictures -continuously, all the while this was going on--the photographer, Mr. -Allen was continuously taking pictures. I was awfully tired and upset. -I rolled my stockings down, and the picture is in Life Magazine. And he -stopped that. So I got up and said, "I am not having this invasion of -privacy. I realize that I am in Mrs. Paine's home. But you are taking -my picture without my consent, and a picture that I certainly don't -want made public." It is the worst--with me rolling my hose. I wanted -to get comfortable. - -He followed Marina around in the bedroom. She was undressing June. He -took pictures of everything. And Mrs. Paine was in her glory--I will -say this. Mrs. Paine was very happy all these pictures were taken. And -I had to go behind Marina to see that the photographers were not taking -her, and they were taking me. And it was just a regular--the home was -a living room and a hall and a bedroom and kitchen, and we were all -going around in circles. - -And the photographer was taking pictures, until finally I became -indignant, and said, "I have had it. Now, find out what accommodations -you can make for us, for my daughter-in-law and I so that we can be in -Dallas to help Lee, and let me know in the morning." - -So they left. - -However, about an hour later there was a telephone call to Mrs. Paine -from a Life representative. I know by her conversation who she was -talking to. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who was that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. One of the men--either Allen Grant or Tommy Thompson. - -And after the conversation, I said to her, "Was that one of the Life -representatives?" - -And she said, "Oh, yes, he just was a little upset about what happened." - -So I got no information there. - -The CHAIRMAN. Would you like to take a short recess, Mrs. Oswald? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I am getting thirsty. - -The CHAIRMAN. Suppose we do. We will take one for about 10 minutes. - -(Brief recess.) - -The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Mrs. Oswald, you may -continue with your statement. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Now, we are in Mrs. Paine's home yet. - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes. This is on the day of the assassination? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--the 22d, Friday, the 22d. - -I am worried because Lee hasn't had an attorney. And I am talking about -that, and Mrs. Paine said, "Oh, don't worry about that. I am a member -of the Civil Liberties Union, and Lee will have an attorney, I can -assure you." - -I said to myself but when? Of course, I didn't want to push her, argue -with her. But the point was if she was a member of the Union, why -didn't she see Lee had an attorney then. So I wasn't too happy about -that. - -Now, gentlemen, this is some very important facts. - -My daughter-in-law spoke to Mrs. Paine in Russian. "Mamma," she says. -So she takes me into the bedroom and closes the door. She said, "Mamma, -I show you." She opened the closet, and in the closet was a lot of -books and papers. And she came out with a picture--a picture of Lee, -with a gun. - -It said, "To my daughter June"--written in English. - -I said, "Oh, Marina, police." I didn't think anything of the picture. - -Now, you must understand that I don't know what is going on on -television--I came from the jailhouse and everything, so I don't -know all the circumstances, what evidence they had against my son -by this time. I had no way of knowing. But I say to my daughter, -"To my daughter, June," anybody can own a rifle, to go hunting. You -yourself probably have a rifle. So I am not connecting this with the -assassination--"To my daughter, June." Because I would immediately say, -and I remember--I think my son is an agent all the time--no one is -going to be foolish enough if they mean to assassinate the President, -or even murder someone to take a picture of themselves with that rifle, -and leave that there for evidence. - -So, I didn't think a thing about it. And it says "To my daughter, -June." I said, "The police," meaning that if the police got that, they -would use that against my son, which would be a natural way to think. - -She says, "You take, Mamma." - -I said, "No." - -"Yes, Mamma, you take." - -I said, "No, Marina. Put back in the book." So she put the picture back -in the book. Which book it was, I do not know. - -So the next day, when we are at the courthouse--this is on -Saturday--she--we were sitting down, waiting to see Lee. She puts her -shoe down, she says, "Mamma, picture." She had the picture folded up in -her shoe. - -Now, I did not see that it was the picture, but I know that it was, -because she told me it was, and I could see it was folded up. It wasn't -open for me to see. I said, "Marina." Just like that. So Robert came -along and he says, "Robert" I said, "No, no Marina." I didn't want her -to tell Robert about the picture. Right there, you know. That was about -the picture. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever tell her to destroy the picture? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. Now, I have to go into this. I want to tell you about -destroying the picture. - -Now, that was in Mrs. Paine's home. - -I want to start to remember--because when we leave Mrs. Paine's home, -we go into another phase, where the picture comes in again. So I have -to tell the--unless you want to ask me specific questions. - -Mr. RANKIN. No, you go right ahead. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Mrs. Paine, in front of me, gave Marina $10. Now, Mrs. -Paine, when I said, after the representatives left--I said, "You know, -I do want to get paid for the story, because I am destitute, and here -is a girl with--her husband is going to be in jail, we will need money -for attorneys, with two babies." - -She said, "You don't have to worry about Marina. Marina will always -have a home with me, because Marina helps." - -Now, Mrs. Paine speaks Russian fluently. "She helps me with my Russian -language. She babysits for me and helps me with the housework, and you -never have to worry about Marina. She will always have a home with me." - -Now, Mr. and Mrs. Paine are separated. Mr. Paine does not live here. So -it is just the two women. - -So, Mrs. Paine didn't graciously do anything for Marina, as the paper -stated--that Lee never did pay Mrs. Paine for room or board. Mrs. Paine -owes them money. That is almost the kind of work that I do, or the -airline stewardesses do, serve food and everything. Marina was earning -her keep, and really should have had a salary for it--what I am trying -to say, gentlemen, Mrs. Paine had Marina there to help babysit with the -children, with her children--if she wanted to go running around and -everything. - -So actually she wasn't doing my son or Marina the favor that she claims -she was doing. - -But the point I am trying to stress is that she did tell me Marina -would never have to worry, because Marina would have a home with her. - -At this particular moment, I cannot remember anything of importance in -the house. Otherwise, about the picture I have stated. And Mrs. Paine -with the Life representative, and her saying that Lee would have an -attorney, and Mrs. Paine giving Marina a $10 bill. - -Oh, Marina told me, "Mamma, I have this money." It was money in an -envelope--in the bedroom, when she showed me the picture. I said, "How -much money, Marina." - -"About how much?" I asked her. - -"About $100 and some." - -Now, Mrs. Paine has stated to the Life representative that Lee and -Marina were saving his pay in order to have a home for themselves for -Christmas time, because they had never been in a home of their own at -Christmas time--in order to celebrate Christmas. So, the hundred and -some odd dollars isn't a big sum, considering that Lee paid $8 a week -room in Dallas--and it has been stated by the landlady that Lee ate -lunchmeat or fruit. And Lee was very, very thin when I saw him. And -Lee gave his salary to his wife in order to save to have this home for -Christmas. - -So, that is not a lot of money to have in the house--I would not think -so, because I believe Lee was earning about $50 a week. And let's say -he could live for about $10 or $12. And he gave the rest of the money -to his wife. - -And so I reported this money to the Secret Service while we were in Six -Flags--that Marina had the money. I wanted them to know. She showed me -the money. - -I cannot think now--I did think of the money after going back--but I -cannot think of anything at this particular moment that would be of any -benefit that happened in this house. - -Mr. RANKIN. In regard to the photograph, I will show you some -photographs. Maybe you can tell me whether they are the ones that you -are referring to. Here is Commission's Exhibit 134. - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, that is not the picture. - -Mr. RANKIN. And 133, consists of two different pictures. - -Mrs. OSWALD.. No, sir, that is not the picture. He was holding the -rifle up, and it said, "To my daughter, June, with love." He was -holding the rifle up. - -Mr. RANKIN. By holding it up, you mean---- - -Mrs. OSWALD.. Like this. - -Mr. RANKIN. Crosswise, with both hands on the rifle? - -Mrs. OSWALD.. With both hands on the rifle. - -Mr. RANKIN. Above his head? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is right. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see these pictures, Exhibits 133 and 134? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I have never seen those pictures. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, you were going to tell us about some further -discussion of the picture you did see? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--all right. - -Now, so the next morning the two representatives of the Life Magazine, -Mr. Allen Grant and Mr. Tommy Thompson come by at 9 o'clock with a -woman, Russian interpreter, a doctor somebody. I have not been able to -find this woman. I have called the universities, thinking that she was -a language teacher, and I--maybe you have her name. But she is very, -very important to our story. - -And I do want to locate her, if possible. - -During the night, I had decided I was going to take up their offer, -because I would be besieged by reporters and everything. So why not go -with the Life representatives, and let them pay my room and board and -my daughter-in-law's. They came by at 9 o'clock, without calling, with -this Russian interpreter. So Marina was getting dressed and getting the -children dressed. He was taking pictures all the time. - -Mr. RANKIN. They came by where? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Mrs. Paine's home. And there was no hurry, though, -to leave the home, because Mrs. Paine was most anxious for the -Life representatives to talk to her and get these pictures and -everything--whether Marina has any part in this I don't know, because -they spoke Russian, and she didn't tell me about it. But I know Mrs. -Paine did. - -We left with the two Life representatives. They brought us to the Hotel -Adolphus in Dallas. I immediately upon entering the hotel picked up the -phone and called Captain Will Fritz, to see if Marina and I could see -Lee at the jailhouse. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who is he? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He is one of the big men in Dallas on this case. - -Mr. RANKIN. The Chief of Detectives, or something like that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. And I called him from the hotel, and the man that -answered the phone said he would relay my message to him, that I wanted -to see if Marina and I could see Lee. I waited on the phone. He came -back and said, "Yes, Mrs. Oswald, Captain Fritz said you may see Lee at -12 o'clock today." - -We arrived at the Adolphus Hotel between 9:30 and 10:00. - -Mr. RANKIN. This was what day? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This was Saturday, November 23, the morning of Saturday, -November 23. - -While we were there, an FBI agent, Mr. Hart Odum entered the room with -another agent, and wanted Marina to accompany him to be questioned. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were these FBI agents? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir; Mr. Hart Odum is an FBI agent. And I said, "No, -we are going to see Lee." We were all eating breakfast when he came in. -I said, "No, we have been promised to see Lee. She is not going with -you." - -So he said, "Well, will you tell Mrs. Oswald, please"--to the -interpreter, "I would like to question her and I would like her to come -with me to be questioned." - -I said, "It is no good. You don't need to tell the interpreter that, -because my daughter-in-law is not going with you. We have been promised -to see Lee. And besides Marina has testified, made her statement at the -courthouse yesterday, and any further statements that Marina will make -will be through counsel." - -Mr. Odum said to the interpreter, "Mrs. Oswald"--to the -interpreter--"will you tell Mrs. Oswald to decide what she would like -to do and not listen to her mother-in-law." - -I said, "It is no good to tell my daughter-in-law, because my -daughter-in-law is not leaving here with you, Mr. Odum, without -counsel." - -And I had been telling Marina, "No, no." - -She said, "I do, Mamma," she kept saying. - -Just then my son, Robert, entered the room, and Mr. Odum said, "Robert, -we would like to take Marina and question her." - -He said, "No, I am sorry, we are going to try to get lawyers for both -she and Lee." - -So he left. - -We went to the courthouse and we sat and sat, and while at the -courthouse my son, Robert, was being interviewed by--I don't know -whether it was Secret Service or FBI agents--in a glass enclosure. We -were sitting--an office, a glass enclosed office. We were sitting on -the bench right there. - -Mr. RANKIN. Where was this? - -Mrs. OSWALD. In the Dallas courthouse, on Saturday. - -So we waited quite a while. One of the men came by and said "I am sorry -that we are going to be delayed in letting you see Lee, but we have -picked up another suspect." - -I said, to Marina, "Oh, Marina, good, another man they think maybe -shoot Kennedy." - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask anything about who this suspect was? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. He just give the information why we -would be delayed. We sat out there quite a while. The police were very -nice. They helped us about the baby. We went into another room for -privacy, for Marina to nurse Rachel. It was 2 or 3 hours before we got -to see Lee. We went upstairs and were allowed to see Lee. This was in -the jail--the same place I had been from the very beginning, and we -were taken upstairs. And by the way, they only issued a pass for Marina -and myself, and not for Robert. And Robert was very put out, because he -thought he was also going to see his brother. Whether Robert saw his -brother or not, I do not know, Mr. Rankin. - -Mr. RANKIN. About what time of day was this? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Just a minute now. We arrived there at 12 o'clock. This -would be about 4 or 4:30 in the afternoon, before we got to see Lee. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was anyone else present when he saw you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. Marina and I were escorted back of the door where -they had an enclosure and telephones. So Marina got on the telephone -and talked to Lee in Russian. That is my handicap. I don't know what -was said. And Lee seemed very severely composed and assured. He was -well-beaten up. He had black eyes, and his face was all bruised and -everything. But he was very calm. He smiled with his wife, and talked -with her, and then I got on the phone and I said, "Honey, you are so -bruised up, your face. What are they doing?" - -He said, "Mother, don't worry. I got that in a scuffle." - -Now, my son would not tell me they had abused him. That was a boy's -way to his mother--if he was abused, and it was shown in the paper his -black eyes--he wouldn't tell how he got that. He said that was done in -the scuffle. So I talked and said, "Is there anything I can do to help -you?" - -He said, "No, Mother, everything is fine. I know my rights, and I -will have an attorney. I have already requested to get in touch with -Attorney Abt, I think is the name. Don't worry about a thing." - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to him about another suspect? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. That was my entire conversation to him. - -Gentlemen, you must realize this. I had heard over the television my -son say, "I did not do it. I did not do it." - -And a million of the other people had heard him. I say this. As a -mother--I heard my son say this. But also as a citizen, if I had heard -another man say, I didn't do it, I will have to believe that man, -because he hasn't been--hasn't had the opportunity to present his side -of the case. So here is my son. When I saw him people had said, "Did -you ask him if he did it?" - -No, sir. I think by now you know my temperament, gentlemen. I would not -insult my son and ask him if he shot at President Kennedy. Why? Because -I myself heard him say, "I didn't do it, I didn't do it." - -So, that was enough for me, I would not ask that question. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who told you that there was--they had found another suspect? - -Mrs. OSWALD. One of the officers. That, sir, I don't know. He just -walked in real fast while we were sitting down and said they had picked -up another suspect, and it was in the paper that they had picked -up another suspect at that particular time, which would have been -approximately 1 o'clock that day. - -Mr. RANKIN. But you don't remember the officer's name? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, that is all he said and he left. He was just -relaying why we would be delayed. But it was also published. I do not -have the paper or the information. But I do know from the reporters, -when I told my story, that part to them--they said that substantiates -the newspaper story that they did pick up a suspect at that time. - -Mr. RANKIN. About how long did you and Marina spend there with your son? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I would say I spent about 3 or 4 minutes on the telephone, -and then Marina came back to the telephone and talked with Lee. So we -left. So Marina started crying. Marina says, "Mamma, I tell Lee I love -Lee and Lee says he love me very much. And Lee tell me to make sure I -buy shoes for June." - -Now, here is a man that is accused of the murder of a President. -This is the next day, or let's say about 24 hours that he has been -questioned. His composure is good. And he is thinking about his young -daughter needing shoes. - -Now, June was wearing shoes belonging to Mrs. Paine's little girl, -Marina told me--they were little red tennis shoes, and the top was -worn. They were clean, and the canvas was showing by the toe part, like -children wear out their toes. - -I ask you this, gentlemen. If Marina had a hundred and some odd dollars -in the house, why is it necessary that my son has to tell her at the -jailhouse, remind her to buy shoes for his baby, for their child? Just -a few dollars out of that hundred and some odd dollars would have -bought shoes for this particular child. - -Another way to look at this, as I stated previously--that the boy -is concerned about shoes for his baby, and he is in this awful -predicament. So he must feel innocent, or sure that everything is going -to be all right, as he told me. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, in this telephone conversation, when you talked to -your son, can you explain a little bit to the Commission how that is? -Was your son on the other side of a wall or something? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. My son was on the other side of the wall, and -then back of the wall was a door with a peephole, where an officer was. - -Now, we are going to come from the door, with the peephole and the -officer, to my son. Then a glass partition and then glass partitions -like telephone booths. But not really inclosed--just a little -separation. - -Mr. RANKIN. So you could not reach in there and take your son's hand? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. We talked by telephone. - -Mr. RANKIN. And he had a telephone on his side, and---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. And he had a telephone. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you talked back and forth? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Back and forth, that is right. That is the way we talked. -And the boy was badly beat up. I have proof in the papers--his face, -black eyes, all scratched up, his neck was scratched. He was badly -beat up. But he assured me they were not mistreating him, that he got -some of the bruises in the scuffle. As I say, the boy, if he was being -mistreated, would not tell his mother that. - -Mr. RANKIN. And whatever Marina said to him was in Russian, and you -didn't understand it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not understand. But I would say this, it -seemed to be just an ordinary pleasant conversation. He was smiling. -And she told me he said he loved her very much, she said she loved him, -and told about buying the shoes for the baby. That is all she said. She -did not tell me any other part of the conversation. And they talked -quite a while. She talked with him twice. She talked with him the first -time. I got on the phone. Then she talked to him again. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did it sound like there was any dispute or argument? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. It was a pleasant conversation. But she did not -volunteer to tell me what was said, and I did not ask her what was said. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you do after that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. So then after that we went back to the Adolphus Hotel. And -upon arriving at the hotel--I am a little ahead of my story. - -The police and the detectives at the Dallas jail were most courteous -to Marina and I. There were hundreds of reporters out in the corridor. -And we were getting ready to leave, so they said that they would take -us down the back way--incidentally, the same place where my son was -shot. And they had arranged for two to go down and to get a car and to -bring into this basement, and take us down the back elevator, and try -to avoid the reporters. And there were approximately six or seven in -the elevator. When we got down there, there were just a few reporters, -and they went way out of their way to elude any reporters. We were -at the Adolphus Hotel as I explained to you. And instead of from the -jail going straight to the Adolphus Hotel, they drove around 20 or 25 -minutes time in circles in order to lose anybody who might be following -Marina and I. - -So, as we got to the floor of the Adolphus Hotel, we knocked on -the door where we were, and no one answered. We were with two men. -Immediately around the corner comes Mr. Tommy Thompson, the Life -representative. - -Mr. RANKIN. What two men were you with? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Two men from the Dallas courthouse. - -Mr. RANKIN. From the police? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, from the police. - -So Mr. Tommy Thompson came and they asked for his credentials. I had -never even--as thorough as I am trying to be--I am trying to tell you -there are some things I don't know because of the confusion--I didn't -ask for the credentials. I could have been with anybody. I just assumed -they were Life representatives. I had not asked. But these Dallas -detectives or police, in plain clothes, asked Mr. Tommy Thompson for -his credentials, and then left us in his care again. - -Immediately Mr. Tommy Thompson said, "Mrs. Oswald, what do you plan to -do now?" - -The interpreter was gone, and so was the other representative, Mr. -Allen Grant. - -I said, "Well, the arrangement was that we were going to stay here in -the hotel for a few days, and you were going to pay expenses." - -He said, "But you have not given us any facts." - -They were not interested--and to me it seems very strange that they -were not interested in my conversation at the jail with my son. They -did not even ask if we saw Lee. Yet they knew we left the Adolphus -Hotel in order to go see Lee. But they did not even ask if we saw Lee. -And I have often wondered about that. - -So when I told him that we expected to stay there, he said, "Well, Mrs. -Oswald, the reporters will be coming in flocks, they know where you -are. Just a minute." - -He got on the telephone. Mr. Allen Grant--they had a Life--the Life -representatives had a room on the ninth floor where they had a lot of -men working on this case, and we were on the 11th, I believe. So Mr. -Allen Grant came down from the ninth floor with another man--I do not -know his name--because the baby's diapers had to be changed and things -of this sort. He said, "Mrs. Oswald"--they left. Tommy Thompson said, -"Mrs. Oswald, what we are going to do is get you on the outskirts of -town, so the reporters won't know where you are, and here is some money -for your expenses in case you need anything." - -Well, I took the bill, and I put it in my uniform pocket without -looking at it. That may sound strange to you gentlemen, but this is -confusion. I knew it was money, and I just put it in my uniform pocket. - -So Mr. Allen Grant escorted my daughter-in-law and I out of the hotel, -the Adolphus Hotel, and took us to the Executive Inn, which is on the -outskirts of Dallas. We sat in the car. He went in and came out, then, -and said, "Mrs. Oswald, I have arranged for you all to stay here for -2 or 3 days. I have to be back in San Francisco. Anything you want -you have your cash that Mr. Tommy Thompson gave you. And he will be in -touch with you." - -Well, I didn't think too much of it. He escorted us with a porter up to -our room. - -We had two beautiful suites--two, not one--completed rooms and baths, -adjoining, at the Executive Inn. And that was the last time I had seen -either representative. I was stranded with a Russian girl and two -babies. I didn't realize in the beginning. But then it was time for -food, and I had to order food. I told Marina to stay aside and that I -would let the man in. She stayed in her room. I let this man in with -the food, and then I became uneasy, that he might know who we were is -what I was uneasy about, because I didn't realize the danger actually -Marina and I were in. - -I sensed we were alone. And there I was with a Russian girl. And I -didn't want anybody to know who we were, because I knew my son had been -picked up. - -So this is where the picture comes in. - -While there, Marina--there is an ashtray on the dressing table. And -Marina comes with bits of paper, and puts them in the ashtray and -strikes a match to it. And this is the picture of the gun that Marina -tore up into bits of paper, and struck a match to it. - -Now, that didn't burn completely, because it was heavy--not -cardboard--what is the name for it--a photographic picture. So the -match didn't take it completely. - -Mr. RANKIN. Had you said anything to her about burning it before that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. The last time I had seen the picture was in -Marina's shoe when she was trying to tell me that the picture was -in her shoe. I state here now that Marina meant for me to have that -picture, from the very beginning, in Mrs. Paine's home. She said--I -testified before--"Mamma, you keep picture." - -And then she showed it to me in the courthouse. And when I refused it, -then she decided to get rid of the picture. - -She tore up the picture and struck a match to it. Then I took it and -flushed it down the toilet. - -Mr. RANKIN. And what time was this? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This--now, just a minute, gentlemen, because this I know -is very important to me and to you, too. - -We had been in the jail. This was an evening. Well, this, then, would -be approximately 5:30 or 6 in the evening. - -Mr. RANKIN. What day? - -Mrs. OSWALD. On Saturday, November 23. Now, I flushed the torn bits and -the half-burned thing down the commode. And nothing was said. There was -nothing said. - -Mr. RANKIN. That was at the Executive Inn? - -Mrs. OSWALD. At the Executive Inn. - -Now, Mr. Hart Odum, the same FBI agent, that insisted upon my -daughter-in-law going with him from the Adolphus Hotel, knocked on the -door at the Executive Inn. I had had my robe and slippers on, and I -pushed the curtain aside when he knocked. He said, "This is Mr. Odum." - -So, I opened the door. This is very important. I would like to not talk -about it. I would like to show you what I did. This is so important. - -I opened the door just a little, because I had the robe off and I -didn't want anybody to come in. The door is just ajar. I am going to -take my shoes off, gentlemen, because I have this worked out. This is -my height. He said, "Mrs. Oswald, we would like to see Marina." - -I said, "Mr. Odum, I stated yesterday you are not going to see Marina. -We are awful tired." - -"Well, we just want to ask her one question." - -"Mr. Odum, I am not calling my daughter. As a matter of fact, she is -taking a bath." - -She wasn't. - -He said, "Mrs. Oswald, I would like to ask you a question." - -I said, "Yes, sir." The door is ajar. This is my height. I wear -bifocals, which enlarges things. And in his hand--his hand is bigger -than mine--in the cup of his hand, like this, is a picture. And the -two corners are torn off the picture. This is a very glossy black and -white picture of a man's face and shoulder. - -Now, Mr. Odum wasn't too tall. I need somebody else. Mr. Odum's -hand with the picture--what I am trying to say--he is facing this -way--showing me. So my eyes are looking straight at the picture. And -I have nothing else to see but this hand and the picture, because -the door is ajar. And there is nothing on the picture but a face and -shoulders. There is no background or anything. So I can identify this -picture amongst millions of pictures, I am so sure of it. It was a -glossy black and white picture. So I said, "No, sir, believe me. I have -never seen this picture in my life." - -With that, he went off. - -There was another man with him. - -About an hour later the telephone rang, and it was Mrs. Paine. She -said, "Mrs. Oswald, Lee called and he was very upset because Marina -was not with me, and he asked me to get a lawyer for him, a Mr. Abt. I -would like to talk to Marina." - -So I put Marina on the telephone, and Marina said about two or three -words. - -So when she got off the telephone, I said,--Now, Marina talks in -Russian, gentlemen. I said, "Marina, Mrs. Paine told me that Lee called -and you were not home at Mrs. Paine, and Lee tells Mrs. Paine to get a -lawyer." - -Marina didn't answer. - -And I then sensed--well, now, why isn't she answering me? This is very -peculiar. - -And there was no more said about that conversation. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask her about this lawyer? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Ask Marina? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. There was no more said about this conversation. - -Mr. RANKIN. You didn't say anything about Mr. Abt to her then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. But here is the point to this whole thing. - -The FBI agent would have to know where we were, and Mrs. Paine would -have to know where we were, because of these two Life representatives, -who, I am assuming, probably went back to Mrs. Paine's home in order to -get more information. And she--they would have told her where we were, -because no one knew where we were. This girl and I had no protection -or anything. We were sent out there with this Mr. Allen Grant, the -representative. And no one knew who we were. And Mr. Hart Odum would -have to know where we were through Mrs. Paine, which is a normal -procedure, let's say. He might have gone to Mrs. Paine's home looking -for Marina there, and Mrs. Paine might have told him we were at the -Executive Inn. I will grant that. - -But the point I am going to make is that the picture was tried to be -shown to Marina before the telephone conversation. - -Now, if there are any questions why I say that, I would be happy to -answer. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes--why do you say that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Because they wanted Marina---- - -Mr. DULLES. Could we get what picture this is? Is that the picture held -in the hand? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--the picture that is held in the hand, that the -FBI agent, Mr. Hart Odum showed me. - -Mr. RANKIN. I understand you didn't recognize who the picture was at -all. - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. I told Mr. Hart Odum I had never seen the man before, -"Believe me, sir," and he left. - -So the picture was shown--was tried--had tried to be shown to my -daughter-in-law, but they were not successful. - -So then they received--Marina receives a telephone call. - -Now, I am under the impression, since I know it was Mr. Jack Ruby's -picture I saw--at the time I didn't. - -Mr. RANKIN. How do you know that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Because I have seen his picture in the paper. Now I know -it is Mr. Jack Ruby. - -I am under the impression that Marina was threatened---- - -Mr. RANKIN. What was the date now? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is Saturday, November 23d. This is approximately 6:30 -in the evening, that the FBI agent came. And the telephone call was -later. - -Now, I have no way of knowing whether Lee had permission to use the -telephone. Remember, Lee is in jail. - -Mr. RANKIN. About what time do you think the telephone call was? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I would say it was about 7:30, 8 o'clock in the night. - -Mr. RANKIN. That was still on Saturday night? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, still on Saturday night at the Executive Inn. -And that was after the picture was shown to me--she received this -telephone call, and became very silent. - -And the next day my son was shot. - -Now, it is now that I have done investigation of this case that I -believe that the picture was meant for Marina to see, meant for Marina -to see. - -Mr. RANKIN. Why do you think that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Because now it has been proven that Jack Ruby killed my -son. And I think there is a connection there. Because Marina did not -tell me about her conversation. And you men hold the answer whether Lee -used the telephone from the jailhouse. I don't know that. - -Mr. RANKIN. You base that on just your own conclusion that you arrive -at now, do you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--because of the FBI agent, Mr. Hart Odum, insistence -on taking my daughter-in-law--and he being the same agent that came -and showed the picture. And Mr. Ruby being the man that shot Lee--yes, -these are definite conclusions. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is what you base it on? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is what I base it on. - -Mr. DULLES. Do I understand correctly that Marina did not see the -picture at any time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. But they tried awfully hard for -Marina to see the picture. - -Mr. RANKIN. And when they could not show it to her---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. They showed it to me--yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever seen that picture since? - -Mrs. OSWALD. On a Wednesday--Lee was shot on a Sunday--neither Marina -nor I knew how he was shot. They kept it from us. You have to visualize -this. - -We were at the Six Flags with approximately 18 to 20 FBI agents, Secret -Service men running in and out, a woman with a Russian girl and two -sick babies, and the girl and I do not know what is going on. - -Mr. RANKIN. When you had gotten over to the Six Flags, you must have -skipped something there--you were in the Executive Inn before. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I was going to make a point about letting you know -why I didn't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. All right. - -Mrs. OSWALD. All right--let's go back to the Executive Inn. - -So that night I was very upset and very worried. I realized that we -were there alone. And we were not going to go in town, into Dallas. -I wasn't going to take this Russian girl and the two babies. And the -babies were all chapped. We had no diapers. We were not prepared for -this. And it was hectic, gentlemen. - -So all night long I am wondering how can I get in touch with Robert, -what can I do. - -And I was a little suspicious of Mrs. Paine. I was suspicious of Mrs. -Paine from the time I entered her home. - -Mr. RANKIN. Had you found out how much money the Life man gave you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, not even yet. - -Mr. RANKIN. All right. - -Mrs. OSWALD. So I signed for the food. I called the operator and I -asked the operator what name the room was registered under. She said, -"Well, this is an unusual request. Don't you know what room--what -name?" - -I said, "Frankly, I don't. We are three couples. I don't know which -name they used." - -So she told me that the room was registered under Mrs. Allen Grant, -which is the name of the Life representative. So I charged and signed. -And they would have that for proof--Mrs. Allen Grant, on the food. - -Mr. RANKIN. Why did you say three couples? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I just said that to the operator, because I had to give -her a reason why I didn't know which name the room was registered under. - -So I just wanted to elaborate a little bit--let her know. I didn't want -to give my name. Because I was by this time a little concerned about -the situation. - -During the night I thought--"We are in a position here, I am in a -position with a Russian girl and two babies, and I just don't know what -to do." - -I had no contact with Robert. Robert was trying to get an attorney. And -I didn't know if Robert knew where we were. And I did not want to call -Mrs. Paine. I wanted to stay clear of Mrs. Paine. - -So this is a very unusual coincidence. - -Now, I have to go back a little bit. But, believe me, gentlemen, the -story will get together for you to understand. - -About 1 month prior to this, there was an ad in a Fort Worth paper that -the public library was going to have language lessons, and one was -Russian classes. - -Well, I then, as I told you--I was employed for the 3 to 11 shift. And -I was getting a day off. And this would have been a steady job because -this woman was not that sick, just an invalid. - -So I decided on my day off I wanted to do something. So I decided I -would call up about it, and on my day off--make Tuesday my day off and -take up Russian in case--because I had always hoped in my heart that -Marina and Lee would contact me some day. After all, I am a mother -first. - -So I went to the library. And Mr. Peter Gregory was the instructor. - -Now, you must remember--I did not know that he knew Marina and Lee. -This is public notice for the Russian language. - -So Mr. Peter Gregory is the instructor. - -I went to the second class. My car broke down just one block from the -library, and I had to have it towed, and I went to the class. And Mr. -Peter Gregory was there, and several of the women waiting for his -classes to start. I said I don't imagine I will learn anything, because -my car has broken down and I am pretty upset. And Mr. Gregory said, -"Where do you live, Mrs. Oswald? Maybe I could help you and take you -home." And the other couple said, "We would be happy." - -And I said I live in Arlington Heights. And he happens to live about 10 -blocks away. - -Now, I have to go back. - -The point I am going to make is this: Mr. Peter Gregory is the engineer -who knew my son Robert, who was friends with Lee and Marina. Yet when -I registered for a class, and the librarian had come back down before -the class, and read off the names of the people that were going to take -the Spanish lesson, isn't it peculiar that Mr. Gregory did not remember -me as the mother of Lee--didn't acknowledge me as the mother of Lee? I -find that very peculiar. - -Even the second lesson, there was no acknowledgment. - -So I went home with Mr. Peter Gregory. And there was still no -acknowledgment. - -So we were talking about the Russian language, that is is very hard to -learn. And I said, "I am sure I will never master it." And I thought -I think I will tell him why I want to take lessons is because of my -Russian daughter-in-law, and my son speaks Russian. But I didn't do it. - -But I am going to point out again that Mr. Gregory did not acknowledge -me. - -I am going to give and take. Maybe he didn't connect me. But it would -seem very odd--Mrs. Marguerite Oswald was the name--that he didn't -connect as Marina's mother-in-law and Lee's mother, when he was such a -friend with them. - -Mr. RANKIN. I am not clear as to what lessons you were taking. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Russian lessons at the public library in Fort Worth, Tex., -and Mr. Gregory was the teacher. - -Mr. RANKIN. You said something about Spanish. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, did I? I am sorry. No, sir, the Russian language. - -The CHAIRMAN. What days were these? - -Mr. RANKIN. What days were these that you talked to Mr. Gregory? - -Mrs. OSWALD. You mean the Russian language? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I do not have this information. But I can get it for you -from the public library, because there was a public notice in the paper. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us approximately? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it was just right before the assassination. I had -taken two lessons. Yes, I had taken two lessons, and then I didn't go -for the third lesson, because this was on a Friday--the lessons were on -a Tuesday. So I had taken two lessons, the two Tuesdays prior to the -assassination. - -Mr. RANKIN. I see. - -So it would be around a little over 3 weeks before the assassination? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Two Tuesdays before, and then my next lesson -would have been the Tuesday after the Friday of the assassination. - -Yes, sir, that is the time. - -So then I thought of Mr. Gregory. - -Now, believe me, gentlemen--and I will swear again, if you want me -to--nothing was said about Mr. Gregory and Marina being friends. But I -do have a guardian angel. And, as I go along, some of the things I know -have been from this guardian angel. - -This was just a coincidence. - -I thought of calling Mr. Peter Gregory. I have no friends in Fort -Worth. I never--I live a very lonely life. I am not lonely. But I live -to myself. I am kept very busy. I had my work, 24 hour duty. So really -I have no friends. And because of Lee's defection, I didn't make any -new friends. - -So I am racking my mind who can I call for help. And I think of Mr. -Peter Gregory. So I call Mr. Peter Gregory at 6:30 in the morning, -Sunday, the 24th--Sunday morning the 24th. - -And I didn't want the hotel operator to know who I was. So I gave a -fictitious name. He said, "I am sorry,"--I said, "I can't tell you who -I am, Mr. Gregory." - -I am ahead of my story. - -Marina, when I said, "Marina, we need help, honey. I am going to call a -Mr. Gregory." - -And I told her about me taking Russian lessons. - -"Oh, Mama, I know Mr. Gregory, Lee know Mr. Gregory, the man at the -library that gives Russian lessons." - -So I find that very much of a coincidence. - -So I called Mr. Gregory. I said, "Mr. Gregory, I won't say who I am, -but you know my son and you know my daughter-in-law, and I am in -trouble, sir. I am over here." - -He said, "I am sorry, but I won't talk to anybody I don't know." - -Mr. RANKIN. What name did you give him? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't give him any name. - -He said, "I am sorry, but I won't talk to anyone I don't know." - -And I said again, "Well, you know my son real well." - -He said, "Oh, you are Mrs. Oswald." - -I said, "Yes sir, this is Mrs. Oswald. We are at the Executive Inn -in Dallas, stranded. And do you know of anyone who would give my -daughter-in-law and I a home, and put us up for the time that this is -going on, so we can be near Lee at the courthouse? I need help. Mr. -Gregory." - -He said, "Mrs. Oswald, what is your room number? I will help you. Hold -still. Help will be coming." - -And so that was the end of my conversation with Mr. Gregory. - -At 11:30 Sunday, November 23d, my son Robert and Mr. Gregory came to -the Executive Inn, all excited. We had diapers strung all over the -place. My uniform was washed. I had no clothes with me. - -I went with the uniform. - -"Hurry up, we have got to get you out of here." - -I am not one to be told what to do, and you gentlemen know that by this -time. I said, "What's your hurry? We have the diapers and all. I want -to tell you what happened." - -"Mother, Mother stop talking. We have to get you out of here." - -Mr. Gregory said, "Mrs. Oswald, will you listen and get things -together. We have to get you out of here." - -I said, "That is all we have been doing since yesterday, running from -one place to the other. Give us just a minute. We are coming, but we -have to pack things." - -"Hurry up." - -I said, "I want you to know how we got here. I was shown a picture of a -man last night. And Mrs. Paine called and said that Lee called." - -I told him exactly. - -So Mr. Gregory and Robert knew about the things I told you. I told him -that while I am gathering up the things. - -"Mrs. Oswald, we will talk later. We have to get you out of here." - -I have found out since that my son was shot. But they did not tell us. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a television in this room? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Now, here is another Godsend. We watched the television, Marina and -I. She watched more than I did. We were very busy, Mr. Rankin. The -babies had diarrhea and everything. I was very busy with the babies and -the Russian girl. And just like at the end of the Six Flags, we were -just getting snatches of it. But Marina wanted to know, "Mama, I want -see Lee." She was hoping Lee would come on the picture, like he did. -So this morning, Sunday morning, I said, "Oh, honey, let's turn the -television off. The same thing over and over." - -And I turned the television off. So Marina and I did not see what -happened to my son. - -We had the television off. - -So we did not know. - -But frantically Robert and Mr. Gregory kept insisting that we pack and -run. - -So when we get downstairs, here was Secret Service men all over. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, before you leave that, what did Robert say about the -story about the picture, when you told him that? Did he say anything? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. He and Mr. Gregory both didn't want to listen to me. I -told them, but they didn't want to hear my story. They wanted to get us -out of here. - -Mr. RANKIN. They didn't say anything about it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, not that I can recall. And I don't believe they -did. They didn't want to hear what I had to say. They kept fussing at -me and saying "Mother, stop talking. Hurry up, we have got to get you -out of here." - -I kept saying, "All we have been doing is run from one place to the -other. The diapers are wet." - -I was kind of having my way about this. - -So when we get downstairs, there is Secret Service all around. - -I am ahead of my story. - -Robert went downstairs to pay the bill, and that is when I gave Robert -the money, and it was a $50 bill that the Life representative had given -to me. They gave me some money. I took it out---- - -Mr. RANKIN. That is the first time you looked at it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. The first time I looked at it, sir. I charged the food, -and I had no need for money. Wait a minute--I am wrong. Yes. - -Representative FORD. Mrs. Oswald--didn't you say you had washed your -uniform? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Representative FORD. When you washed your uniform, didn't you---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. Just a minute, if you let me explain. I just said I was -wrong. The first time--it was Puerto Rican that brought the dinner in. -We needed baby lotion for the baby. And then I took the bill out and -I saw it was a $50 bill, because he went to the drug store--I gave -him the $50 bill, this Puerto Rican, that brought the food in--the -first food we had--to go to the drug store and pay for the necessities -that Marina and I needed--really it was for the baby, the lotion and -everything. And he came back and the drug store was closed--it was on a -Sunday. And so I did know about the $50 bill before this time. - -And then when Robert came, I gave Robert the $50 bill and he went -downstairs to pay the bill. - -Now, the representatives had not paid the bill. Robert used the $50 to -pay the bill. The bill was not paid. So we were really stranded. Those -men left two women stranded. - -Now, let me see if there is anything I have forgotten. - -Mr. RANKIN. Where did you put the $50 after the Puerto Rican brought it -back? - -Mrs. OSWALD. In my uniform pocket, because that was all the clothes I -had. I kept it in my pocket. - -Mr. RANKIN. When you washed your uniform---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. I naturally took it out of my pocket to wash my uniform, -because I stated I gave Robert the $50 bill to pay the hotel. But that -was all the clothes I had. You have to visualize that all of this is -really rush business. We are doing all this in a hurry. - -So I didn't even put it in my pocketbook. And I would not be the type -to put it in my pocketbook, because it is a $50 bill and all the money -I have to get out of the hotel--I don't know if I am going to get -help--so I want to keep it on my person, just like I keep my important -papers right now on my person. - -I took it out of my pocket to wash the uniform, I know. This can be -proven by the bellhop who brought the food. And he went to the drug -store, and the drug store was closed on Sunday. And we did not get the -lotion. And I gave him the $50 bill to buy the things with. - -Mr. RANKIN. And then after you paid the bill there---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. Robert paid the bill. - -Mr. RANKIN. What happened next? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing was said about the bill. I didn't know then that -the representatives had not paid the bill. Robert took the $50 and -checked us out. Then the Secret Service---- - -Mr. DULLES. Could we have the time when you checked out? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--approximately 11:30 to 12 o'clock, on Sunday. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us the amount of the bill? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Since then I have called Robert and Robert said the -amount of the bill was 40-some-odd dollars--about $48, I believe. That -is what Robert told me. I have no way of knowing, otherwise than what -Robert told me. - -And I would think so. If I remember correctly the rooms were $17.50. I -told you before that they put us in exclusive suites, and two. And the -rooms were $17.50. And we had some meals. So that would make it about -40-some-odd dollars. - -Mr. RANKIN. And then after Robert checked you out, what happened? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Then Robert got in a car with Secret Service, and then -Marina and I and Mr. Gregory were in another car, with two Secret -Service agents in the front. - -Mr. RANKIN. And did you go someplace? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Here comes me again. They wanted to take us--as soon as -we got in the car Mr. Gregory says, "We are taking you to Robert's -mother-in-law's house." - -Now, they live out of Boyd, Tex., in the country. Boyd, Tex., is a -little bit of country town. But they live in a little farm house. They -are dairy people--Robert's in-laws. And they wanted to take us there, -which would have been approximately 45 miles from Dallas. - -And I said, "No, you are not taking me out in the sticks, in the -country. I want to be in Dallas where I can help Lee." - -"Well, for security reasons, this is the best place. Nobody would ever -find it." - -I said, "Security reasons? You can give security for me in a hotel room -in town. I am not going out in this little country town. I want to be -in Dallas where I can help Lee." - -And so I am not being well liked, because all the arrangements was -made, that we were going to go to this little farm house. But I would -not go. - -I could not survive if I was 40 or 50 miles away and my son was picked -up as a murderer. I had to be right there in Dallas. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, this was after---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. When they left the Executive Inn, when we got in the car. - -Mr. RANKIN. And this was after your son was killed? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, yes, but they didn't know this. - -Mr. RANKIN. And Robert didn't know that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. They kept it from us--I guess being women. Marina and I -did not even know he was shot. - -I will go on to that story and tell you. No, sir, we did not know. - -Mr. RANKIN. The Secret Service people didn't tell you either? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; nothing was said. They wanted us for security -reasons---- - -Mr. DULLES. If the time is 11:30---- - -Mr. RANKIN. They left at 12 or 12:30, I thought. - -Mr. DULLES. You said 11:30 to 12. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Approximately that time. - -Mr. DULLES. It might not have taken place. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I know Lee was shot. But at this time I am telling you I -don't know this. - -This has to go in sequence, sir. Lee was shot, or else we wouldn't have -had all these Secret Service men around. But I know then after that Lee -was shot. Not now--I do not know this. - -Are there any questions? I am willing to answer anything you want to -ask. - -If you will bear with me, I can go into---- - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you later learn at what time of that Sunday he was shot? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. RANKIN. You never did? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Not until about 3 days later. That is what I was telling -you about Six Flags. I am trying to explain to you why I don't know -these things is because we did not sit down and watch television and -read papers. Marina and I--I had two sick babies there. There was a -doctor coming in twice a day. I was a very busy woman. And the men were -not telling us anything. They were not interested in us. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, after you told them that you wanted to stay in a -hotel, you could be protected there, what happened? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Then, of course, nothing was said that they were going -to give me my way. But we needed clothes--Marina and the baby needed -clothes. So then they decided that they should go to Irving, through -my suggestion and so on, and pick up clothes for Marina and the baby, -because we were short on diapers. So they are going to Irving. - -We got to Irving. There is police cars all around. So that is why I -feel sure my son was shot. - -Mr. RANKIN. How far away is that from this Executive Inn? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I would think--now, this is just hearsay. But I would -think it is about 12 to 15 or 18 miles. - -When we reached there, they brought us to the chief of police's home. -And there were cars all around. - -As soon as the car stopped, the Secret Service agent said, "Lee has -been shot." - -And I said, "How badly?" - -He said, "In the shoulder." - -They brought Marina into the house. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask him how he knew that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It came over--I thought he had the radio in the car, -Secret Serviceman, and he had talked to someone. This was all set up, -sir, and I can prove to you. They didn't want us to know. They are now -telling us this, Marina and I. - -He talked, and then he turned around and said, "Lee has been shot." - -I said, "How badly?" - -He said, "In the shoulder." - -I cried, and said, "Marina, Lee has been shot." - -So Marina went into the chief of police's at Irving home, to call Mrs. -Paine, to get the diapers and things ready. They decided and told us, -with me in the car and Marina, that it would not be a good thing for -us to go to Mrs. Paine's home and get these things, that Marina should -go in the chief of police's home and call and tell Mrs. Paine what she -wanted. - -And one or two of the agents would go and get the things for Marina. - -So I am sitting in the car with the agent. Marina is in the home -now--remember. - -So something comes over the mike, and the Secret Service agent says, -"Do not repeat. Do not repeat." - -I said, "My son is gone isn't he?" - -And he didn't answer. - -I said, "Answer me. I want to know. If my son is gone, I want to -meditate." - -He said, "Yes, Mrs. Oswald, your son has just expired." - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, which agent told you this? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is the agent that was also now sent to me to protect -me in Fort Worth, Tex.--Mr. Mike Howard, who was the agent that rode -in the car with President Johnson, who was the agent that was at Six -Flags, that was in charge, who was the agent that was assigned to -protect Baine Johnson at the dormitory. He is also the same agent that -was sent to protect me in Fort Worth, Tex. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, who was the other agent that was with you that day? -Was there another Secret Service agent with you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He went into the home--he escorted Marina into the chief -of police's home, and I do not know his name. And he is not the other -agent that I want to know the name of. - -Wait just a minute. - -I don't know this man's name. But he is not the other agent that is -involved. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, about what time on that Sunday did you learn of your -son's death? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, now, here is your time element. I said Robert and -Mr. Gregory and the Secret Service were there approximately from 11:30. -And I knew nothing about the shooting. And then we had to go to Irving -and everything. Then they told us Lee was shot. So now we are bringing -up to the time--it all fits in--which was 1 o'clock or 1:30. - -As a matter of fact, then when I got the news, I went into the home, -and I said, "Marina, our boy is gone." - -We both cried. And they were all watching the sequence on television. -The television was turned to the back, where Marina and I could not see -it. They sat us on the sofa, and his wife gave us coffee. And the back -of the television was to us. And the men and all, a lot of men were -looking at the television. It probably just happened, because the man -said, "Do not repeat." And I insisted. - -They gave us coffee. - -And then it later came out in the paper that--a story about the chief -of police, how it was set up for the women, that we should not know. - -We were to go to his house. There was a story about that from this -chief of police of Irving. - -Mr. RANKIN. What paper is that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. The Star Telegram paper. - -All of my papers were taken out of my home by Secret Service men. While -at Six Flags, they saved the papers for me. We would not let the maids -take the papers. And I brought all of those papers from the Six Flags, -from the very beginning, to my home in Fort Worth, Tex. And every piece -of paper out of my home was taken. So I did not--believe me, gentlemen, -this seems strange, but it was 2 weeks later before I saw the picture -of the way my son was shot. - -Mr. Blair Justice of the Star Telegram gave me the back issues of -papers. And it wasn't until then that I actually knew the tragedy, how -my son was shot. Because they took all the papers, all my clippings -and everything. I was left stranded, without any papers. And until Mr. -Blair Justice brought me these back issues, some 2 weeks later, was -the first time that I saw exactly the tragic way my son was shot. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was there any discussion between you and Marina about this? - -Mrs. OSWALD. About the shooting? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. We didn't know. I was with Marina at the Executive Inn -from the 22d until the shooting, the 24th--as I told you. - -Then we left. And from the 24th to the 28th, at the Inn of the Six -Flags, the agents and my son kept this from us. We did not know. We -knew Lee was shot and dead. But we didn't know how. We didn't get -to read a paper or watch television. We just had snatches of the -television. - -Mr. RANKIN. Well, when you both learned that he was shot on that Sunday -afternoon, did you and Marina say anything to each other? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes. That is another story. - -Immediately I said, "I want to see Lee." And Marina said, "I want see -Lee, too." - -And the chief of police and Mr. Gregory said, "Well, it would be better -to wait until he was at the funeral home and fixed up." - -I said, "No, I want to see Lee now." - -Marina said, "Me, too, me want to see Lee." - -They led us to believe that now they have taught her to do like this. -But Marina has always spoken like that. I have acted as an interpreter -for her, as I stated before, for an FBI agent. And she understood me. -And he was satisfied that he didn't need an interpreter. - -So she said, "I want to see Lee, too." - -They didn't want us to see Lee, from the ugliness of it evidently. But -I insisted, and so did Marina. So they could not do anything about it -with the two women. So they decided to pacify us. - -We got in the car. On the way in the car they are trying to get us to -change our minds. And he said, Mr. Mike Howard--he was driving the -car--"Mrs. Oswald for security reasons it would be much better if you -would wait until later on to see Lee because this is a big thing." - -I said, "For security reasons I want you to know that I am an American -citizen, and even though I am poor I have as much right as any other -human being, and Mrs. Kennedy was escorted to the hospital to see her -husband. And I insist upon being escorted, and enough security to take -me to the hospital to see my son." - -Gentlemen, I require the same privilege. - -So Mr. Mike Howard said, "All right, we will take you to the hospital. - -"I want you to know when we get there we will not be able to protect -you. Our security measures end right there. The police will then have -you under protection. We cannot protect you." - -I said, "That is fine. If I am to die, I will die that way. But I am -going to see my son." - -Mr. Gregory says--and in the most awful tone of voice, I will always -remember this--remember, gentlemen, my son has been accused, I have -just lost a son. - -He said, "Mrs. Oswald, you are being so selfish. You are endangering -this girl's life, and the life of these two children." - -I want to elaborate on this. He is not thinking about me. He is -thinking about the Russian girl. I am going to bring this over and -over--that these Russian people are always considering this Russian -girl. He snapped at me. - -I said, "Mr. Gregory, I am not talking for my daughter-in-law. She can -do what she wants. I am saying I want to see my son." - -And so they brought us to the hospital. And Marina said, "I too want to -see Lee." - -After Mr. Gregory said that--"I, too, want to see Lee." - -So then they did leave us at the entrance of the hospital, the Secret -Service men, and then the police took over. We were escorted by the -police in the hospital. - -Mr. RANKIN. About what time was that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I would not think it would be more than between 2 -and 3 o'clock. - -Mr. RANKIN. Sunday afternoon? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Sunday, November 24th. - -Mr. RANKIN. And then what happened? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Then Mr. Perry, the doctor, came down. We were escorted -into a room. And he came in. He said, "Now, you know the Texas law is -that we have to have an autopsy on a body." - -I said, "Yes, I understand." - -And Marina understood. - -Marina is a registered pharmacist. - -So Marina understands these things. And Marina understood. - -And he said, "Now, I will do whatever you ladies wish. I understand -that you wish to see the body. However, I will say this. It will not -be pleasant. All the blood has drained from him, and it would be much -better if you would see him after he was fixed up." - -I said, "I am a nurse. I have seen death before. I want to see my son -now." - -Marina--as I am trying to say, she understands English--she said, "I -want to see Lee, too." So she knew what the doctor was saying. - -We were escorted upstairs into a room. They said it was a morgue, but -it wasn't. Lee's body was on a hospital bed, I would say, or a table--a -table like you take into an operating room. And there were a lot of -policemen standing around, guarding the body. And, of course, his face -was showing. And Marina went first. She opened his eyelids. Now, to -me--I am a nurse, and I don't think I could have done that. This is a -very, very strong girl, that she can open a dead man's eyelids. And she -says, "He cry. He eye wet." To the doctor. And the doctor said, "Yes." - -Well, I know that the fluid leaves, and you do have moisture. So I -didn't even touch Lee. I just wanted to see that it was my son. - -So on the way, leaving the body in the room--I am in the room---- - -Mr. RANKIN. You were satisfied it was your son? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. That is why I wanted to see the body. I wanted -to make sure it was my son. - -So while leaving the room, I said to the police--"I think some day you -will hang your heads in shame." - -I said, "I happen to know, and know some facts, that maybe this is the -unsung hero of this episode. And I, as his mother, intend to provide -this if I can." - -And, with that, I left the room. - -Then we were escorted into a room downstairs, and introduced to the -chaplain. I have asked several reporters to give me the chaplain's -name, because I wanted to have all this information for you. But you -have to realize I just knew Thursday. And I have three times as many -papers as I have here. So it has been a chore for me to do all of this. -But that is easy to find out--the name of the chaplain at Parkland -Hospital. So I asked to speak to the chaplain in private. So I spoke to -the chaplain in private, and I told him that I thought my son was an -agent, and that I wanted him to talk to Robert. Robert does not listen -to me, never has, and I have had very, very little conversation with -Robert, ever since Robert has joined the Marines, because of the way -our life has intervened. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell the chaplain why you thought your son was an -agent? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, but this is what I told the chaplain. No--I am -always thinking of my country, the security of my country before I -would say anything like that. - -And I told you why I told the FBI men, because of the money involved, -and I didn't know how the public would take this, because they helped a -Marxist. - -So I didn't tell him. But I did say I wanted him to talk to Robert, -because we financially were in very poor straits. And then I wanted my -son buried in the Arlington Cemetery. - -Now, gentlemen, I didn't know that President Kennedy was going to be -buried in Arlington Cemetery. All I know is that my son is an agent, -and that he deserves to be buried in Arlington Cemetery. So I talked to -the chaplain about this. I went into quite detail about this. I asked -him if he would talk to Robert, because when I talked to Robert about -it, as soon as I started to say something he would say, "Oh, Mother, -forget it." - -So I asked the chaplain to talk to Robert about Lee being buried in the -Arlington Cemetery. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he report to you about it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. But he did call Robert in. We were getting ready. -The police were getting ready to escort us out of his office, and he -said, "If you don't mind, I would like to talk to Robert Oswald just a -minute." - -So he brought Robert into the room he had taken me, and stayed in there -a little while with Robert. So I feel sure that the chaplain relayed my -message to him, because we were getting ready to leave, and he asked -the police if he could talk to Robert. - -Mr. RANKIN. The chaplain never told you anything more about it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not seen the chaplain since. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did Robert say anything about it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, Robert says nothing. I have tried to contact -Robert for important matters, and Robert will not talk. - -Lee was left handed. Lee wrote left handed and ate right handed. And I -wanted to know if Lee shot left handed. Because on Lee's leaves, as I -stated, they live out in the country, and Robert goes squirrel hunting, -and all kinds of hunting. And on leaves from the Marines, Lee has gone -out to this farmhouse, to Robert's family house, and he and his brother -have gone squirrel hunting. And so Robert would know if Lee shot left -handed, and he would not give me the information, gentlemen. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is Robert left handed? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Robert is left handed. I am left handed. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is John Pic left handed? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, John is not. - -Mr. RANKIN. But you are? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Now, I write left handed, but I do everything else with my right hand. - -But Lee was more left handed than I am. - -I write left handed, but I do everything else with my right hand. But -Lee was left handed. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was Lee Oswald's father left handed? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That I do not remember, Mr. Rankin. No--I am the left -handed one. I would say no. - -Now, there is another story. And we have stories galore, believe -me--with documents and everything. - -A gun will be involved in this story, that Lee had bought. But I don't -want to confuse the committee. That is another part that we will have -to go into, that I will have to lead up to. The only way I can do this -and not forget things is to do the way I am doing it. And if you have -any questions, if you feel the story I have told so far--I would like -to know, myself, if I have forgotten anything. - -It is awfully hard for me to remember everything. If you want to -question me, I am more than happy, if I know the facts, to give them to -you. - -Mr. RANKIN. Well, you go ahead and tell us in your own way. - -Mrs. OSWALD. May I have some fresh water, please? - -Mr. RANKIN. You have never told us about the Walker matter. Did you -know something about that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I didn't know about that. - -The CHAIRMAN. You are going to let her finish this other, are you not? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't know about that until it came out in the paper. -But I have a story on that. - -Mr. RANKIN. You want to finish this incident about the gun you are -talking about? - -Mrs. OSWALD. About Robert knowing about the gun--I have already said -that. - -About Lee being left handed, and he and Robert going squirrel hunting. - -Mr. RANKIN. You said there was another gun matter. - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is a long, long story. - -The CHAIRMAN. I think she has gotten to the point---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. I got to the point. I finished this story, really, don't -you think--about the gun? - -The CHAIRMAN. I don't know. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think about Robert knowing Lee was left handed. - -The CHAIRMAN. Has anything happened since that, that you care to call -to our attention, things that you know about? - -Mrs. OSWALD. On the particular story that I have said this morning--you -mean of Lee? - -This is where it gets confusing. - -Representative FORD. Where did you go after the Parkland Hospital? What -happened then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes. This is interesting. - -After the Parkland Hospital, then this Mike Howard said, "Well, what we -will do, we have a place, and this is where we will take them." - -And they took us to the Inn of the Six Flags, which is on the outskirts -of Arlington, Tex. They took us there. - -And I am assuming that it is a Secret Service hideout or something, -because they had made no arrangements or anything. We just were -welcomed right in the Inn. They knew where to go. - -Mr. RANKIN. What happened there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, now, Mr. Rankin, that is so important--if we are -going to recess, I am going to ask not to start that story, because -that is a very long, important story to this Commission. - -Mr. DULLES. How far is that from Dallas--the Six Flags Inn? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, it is in between Dallas and Fort Worth, Tex. It is -near Arlington, Tex. - -The CHAIRMAN. We will recess now until 2 o'clock. - -(Whereupon, at 12:55 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -Afternoon Session - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD RESUMED - - -The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m. - -The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Mrs. Oswald, you may -continue with your statement. - -Mrs. OSWALD. On the way leaving, I remarked to Mr. Doyle that I had -forgotten one very important factor in the story. - -I had in Mrs. Paine's home, when Marina closed the door, and I was in -the room--before she showed me the picture--she told me at the police -station that they had showed her Lee's gun and asked her if that was -Lee's gun, and she said she didn't know, that Lee had a gun, but she -could not say whether that was Lee's gun or not. But that she knew that -Lee had a gun. - -Mr. RANKIN. When was this? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This was in Mrs. Paine's home the night of November 22, -when we came from the jail. She told me that she told the police. I am -going to explain, because I don't want to be put in why I didn't say it. - -Mr. Mark Lane had hoped to come before the Commission, and he wanted to -ask me two questions. He didn't say what the questions were. But I know -the affidavit presented to the Warren Commission passed on that. And so -that is why I had put that particular thing off my mind, thinking Mr. -Lane would bring it up. But I immediately told Mr. Doyle when I left, -that Mr. Lane not being here I should have made that statement. - -Was there something else I told you? - -Mr. DOYLE. No. I think that was the matter you had mentioned to me, -ma'am. - -Mr. RANKIN. You mean the gun or the picture of the gun? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No--the gun. The police showed Marina a gun--showed -Marina a gun, and asked Marina if that was Lee's gun, because Marina -had testified at the police station, she told me that Lee had a gun in -Mrs. Paine's garage, and this was the gun that was presumably used to -assassinate the President, that the police had and showed it to Marina, -and asked Marina if that was Lee's gun that was in the garage. She said -she didn't know--that Lee had a gun in the garage, but she did not know -whether that was the gun or not. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any discussion with Marina about the gun after -that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir--when she said that, that was it. Any comments--as -I said before--that was it. - -Now, where did I finish, please, so I can continue? - -Mr. RANKIN. Well, you had gotten to the Six Flags, and you had heard -about your son being killed. And then you had gotten to the Parkland -Hospital. - -Mrs. OSWALD. We were through at the Parkland Hospital. - -Mr. RANKIN. You had gotten through with the Parkland Hospital. - -Mrs. OSWALD. And then we got to the chief of police's home in Irving. -And we finished that. So now we are at the Six Flags. - -Mr. RANKIN. Correct. - -Mrs. OSWALD. So the FBI agent took us to the Six Flags. - -I was never questioned by the Secret Service or the FBI at Six Flags. -My son, in my presence, was questioned and taped, and Marina was -continuously questioned and taped. But I have never been questioned. - -I had all the papers from the State Department, and all of my research -from Lee's I say so-called defection. And I wanted them to have them. -All the papers were at home. - -I told them I thought I could save a lot of manpower, while they were -getting the original papers, because I know that each department in -the State Department had a reference on Lee, and I had the whole thing -condensed, and by them having my papers, they could get the picture. -They were not interested in any papers I had. They were not interested. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were you not questioned on November 22, 1963? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. Here is what you may have on tape. - -I insisted so much that they talked to me, because I had all this--that -Mr. Mike Howard finally agreed--not 22d, though. - -Mr. RANKIN. This is Mr. Harlan Brown and Mr. Charles T. Brown? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is the two FBI agents, Mr. Brown, questioned me -in the office. But all they wanted to know is how did I know my son -was an agent, and how did I know that he had the money from the -State Department. And I told them Congressman Wright knew, and that -they would investigate Congressman Wright. That was a very short -questioning. I mean I explained that before. I told them I wanted to -talk to the FBI, and I did. And it was the two Mr. Browns, and there -were two other men. - -Mr. RANKIN. Then Mr. Howard was what date? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Mike Howard? Mike Howard was toward the end, because I was -so persistent in them talking to me, that finally he decided he would -put me on tape. But I do not consider this questioning. It was the date -of the funeral--I remember now. - -Mr. RANKIN. November 25th? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Was that the day of the funeral? If this was the day of -the funeral--I can tell you why. He decided he would put me on tape. So -I started to tell him about my having the papers, and Lee's defection. -And then Robert came out of the room and was crying bitterly. I saw -Robert crying. - -Wait, I am ahead of my story. - -You have to understand this. As a family, we separated--not maybe for -any particular reason, it is just the way we live. I am not a mother -that has a home that the children can come to and feed them and so on. -I am a working mother. I do 24-hour duty. So I am not that type mother, -where I am a housewife with money, that the children have a home to -come to. - -So I said to Mike Howard, "I would like Robert to hear this. Maybe he -will learn something." Because Robert never did want to know about -my trip to Washington. He doesn't know. Robert never was interested -in anything. Lee did not want to know about my trip to Washington. -So I thought well now this is an opportunity, since the tragedy has -happened, for Mr. Robert Oswald to know some of these things that his -mother has known all of these years. - -So I started. - -Then Robert had a phone call and he came out of the room, and he -was crying bitterly. So I ended the tape--I would say I talked -approximately 10 minutes. I ended the tape saying, "I'm sorry, but my -thoughts have left me, because my son is crying." - -I thought for a moment that Robert was crying because of what I was -saying, and he was sorry that he had not listened to me before, because -I tried to tell him about the defection and my trip to Washington. But -Robert was crying because he received a telephone call that we could -not get a minister at my son's grave. - -They had three ministers that refused to come to the ceremony at my -son's grave--for church. And that is why Robert was crying bitterly. So -that ended the testimony. That little while I testified, that ended it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, that questioning was a question and answer. You were -questioned by the FBI agent, Mr. Howard---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I was just talking. - -Mr. RANKIN. The Secret Service man? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Mike Howard. I was talking on tape. - -Mr. RANKIN. Didn't he ask you questions? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't recall him asking any questions. It could be. -But I frankly do not recall him asking any questions. But it was a -very short session. And that is the way I ended the tape. I said, "My -thoughts have left me because I see my son crying bitterly." - -That is the way I ended the tape. And it was a very short tape. I do -not remember him questioning me. I think I started to tell my story. -And that is the only time. - -It was from my persistence that I got on tape just that little while. -They did not want to hear anything from me. - -Mr. RANKIN. You don't think, then, that at that time there were -questions and answers for about 28 pages taken from you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. From me--no, sir. Definitely not. If they have that, what -they have is my talking, like I said, when I saw on television. They -said--they were showing Lee's gun. And I was not watching television--I -am getting snatches of it, and I said, "Now, how can they say, even -though it is Lee's gun, that Lee shot the President. Even being his gun -doesn't mean that he shot the President. Someone could have framed him." - -If they have 28 pages of that, they have me doing that kind of talking, -and had the room bugged, or whatever you want to say. But no, sir, I -did not sit and testify. I swear before God 10 times I never have. And -that is the point that has bothered me. - -Even before Lee's defection no one came along to the house. I called -Mr. John Fain in the FBI myself to make friends with him. If they have -20 pages of testimony--that is when they got it, my talking. They got -it with a tape recorder going. But I did not, no, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Well, then, what happened after that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Now--we got off of that. About Robert crying? - -Mr. RANKIN. You said that that ended the interview with Mr. Howard. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that ended the interview with Mr. Howard, because -Robert was crying. I was not consulted. I want you to know this, too. I -was not consulted about the graveyard services or any part of my son's -funeral. - -What I know--when my son was going to be buried--it was approximately 1 -hour before the time for my son to be buried. My son Robert knew. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether Marina was consulted? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know. And I am assuming that she was. You see, -Mr. Gregory taught Russian to Marina. And I believe Marina might have -been consulted. But I do not know whether she was consulted or not. But -I was not consulted. And since then--we will go on to the story. They -have put a marker on the grave. I have not been consulted. I have found -out my son is encased in cement, and I did not know anything about it -until I investigated and asked the man at the cemetery. - -They did not consult me about anything, never have. I want that made -clear--because that is the part I cannot understand. - -Mr. RANKIN. You don't know whether the laws of Texas give the widow the -right to say what shall be done? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, naturally, she is his wife, and I am just the -mother. But from a moral standpoint, what are they doing to me? Law and -right--but from a moral standpoint, I should go out to the graveyard -and see a marker? I should find out from strangers that my son is now -in a concrete vault? - -Mr. RANKIN. Well, then, did you go to the funeral? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, let me get--we will get to the story of the -ministers. - -Mr. RANKIN. All right. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Now, I was not consulted. Had Robert asked me--they are -Lutheran, we are raised Lutherans. I have no church affiliation. I have -learned since my trouble that my heart is my church. I am not talking -against the church. But I go to church all day long, I meditate. And my -work requires that I don't go to church. I am working on Sunday most of -the time, taking care of the sick, and the people that go to church, -that I work for, the families, have never once said, "Well, I will stay -home and take care of my mother and let you go to church, Mrs. Oswald, -today." - -You see, I am expected to work on Sunday. - -So that is why--I have my own church. And sometimes I think it is -better than a wooden structure. Because these same people that expect -me to work on Sunday, while they go to church, and go to church on -Wednesday night--I don't consider them as good a Christian as I am--I -am sorry. - -Well--I would not have let Robert be so upset trying to get a Lutheran -minister. If he could not get a Lutheran minister, I would have called -upon another minister, because there would have been many, many -ministers of many denominations that would have been happy to come and -help the sorrowing family. - -Well, a Reverend French from Dallas came out to Six Flags and we sat on -the sofa. - -Reverend French was in the center, I and Robert on the side. And Robert -was crying bitterly and talking to Reverend French and trying to get -him to let Lee's body go to church. And he was quoting why he could not. - -So then I intervened and said, "Well, if Lee is a lost sheep, and that -is why you don't want him to go to church, he is the one that should -go into church. The good people do not need to go to church. Let's -say he is called a murderer. It is the murderers and all we should be -concerned about". - -And that agent--I am going ahead of my story a little bit--that man -right here---- - -Mr. RANKIN. You are pointing to---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. This agent right here. You may pass the picture around. - -Mr. RANKIN. The figure on the left hand of the picture you have just -produced? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I do not know his name. The man had the decency -to stay at the far end of the room, near the entrance door, while the -minister and myself and Robert were sitting on the sofa. And when I -said to the minister about the lost sheep, this agent, who I will have -a much longer story to talk about, left the group and came and sat on -the other sofa--there were two sofas and a cocktail table--and he said, -"Mrs. Oswald, be quiet. You are making matters worse." - -Now, the nerve of him--to leave the group and to come there and scold -me. - -This Mr. French, Reverend French, agreed that we would have chapel -services, that he could not take the body into the church. And we -compromised for chapel services. - -However, when we arrived at the graveyard, we went to the chapel. There -is the body being brought into the chapel. There is another picture. -Here is another picture of the chapel. - -Mr. RANKIN. Before we go on---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. And the chapel was empty. My son's body had been brought -into the chapel, but Reverend French did not show up. And because -there was a time for the funeral, the Star Telegram reporters and the -police, as you see in the picture, escorted my son's body from the -chapel and put it at the grave site. And when we went to the cemetery, -we went directly to the chapel, because we were promised to have chapel -services. And the chapel was empty. My son's body was not in it. Robert -cried bitterly. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, can I interrupt a minute? - -We will have the reporter identify this photograph that you just -referred to, where the FBI agent is in the lefthand corner. - -(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 165 for -identification.) - -Mr. RANKIN. The photograph I have just referred to is Exhibit 165, is -it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Exhibit 165. - -Mr. RANKIN. And the FBI agent you refer to is in the upper lefthand -corner of that exhibit. - -Mrs. OSWALD. That's right. And this is the other FBI agent, Mr. Mike -Howard, who is going to be involved quite a bit. He is the one that was -taking care of Baine Johnson. He is the one that they have now sent to -protect me in Fort Worth. He was the lead man at Six Flags. - -Mr. RANKIN. And he stands right behind you there in that picture? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is Mr. Mike Howard. - -Mr. RANKIN. Isn't he a Secret Service man? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Secret Service man--they are both Secret Service. - -Representative FORD. That was the point I wanted to make, because she -had said he was an FBI agent. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--please interrupt. It is awful hard for me to remember -and say things. So I appreciate you doing that. It is a long story. And -I have many stories, gentlemen. I have many stories that I am sure you -do not have. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I'll ask the reporter to mark the other -picture with the chapel and the casket as Exhibit 166. - -(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 166 for -identification.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us if Exhibit 166 is a photograph showing the -removing of the casket? - -Mrs. OSWALD. The way the men are coming this way, they are leaving the -chapel. That is the way I would assume. They are leaving the chapel. -But the body was not at the chapel. What an awful thing we went -through, gentlemen. - -Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibits 165 and 166, and ask to -substitute copies. - -The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted. - -(The documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 165 and 166 -were received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, I will ask you to mark the picture of the -chapel with the casket apparently going in as Exhibit 167. - -(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 167 for -identification.) - -Mr. RANKIN. And the picture of the chapel and the casket being placed -on a carrier in front of it, as Exhibit 168. - -(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 168 for -identification.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, do you recall that Exhibit 167 is the picture -of them taking the casket into the chapel? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And Exhibit 168 is apparently a picture in front of the -chapel where they are putting the casket on a carrier? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibits 167 and 168 and ask leave to -substitute copies. - -The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted. - -(The photographs previously marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 167 and 168 -for identification were received in evidence.) - -Mrs. OSWALD. Now, I don't remember if I stated while at Six Flags that -this particular agent identified as being to the left of the picture, -while the television was on continuously--I have stated before I never -did sit down and watch it, because we were quite busy. And this was -published in the Star Telegram by Mr. Blair Justice, and also on the -radio. - -He was very, very rude to me. Anything that I said, he snapped. And I -took it for quite a while. At this particular time that they showed the -gun on television, I said, "How can they say Lee shot the President? -Even though they would prove it is his gun doesn't mean he used -it--nobody saw him use it." - -He snapped back and he said, "Mrs. Oswald, we know that he shot the -President." - -I then walked over to Mr. Mike Howard and I said, "What's wrong with -that agent? That agent is about to crack. All he has done is taunt me -ever since I have been here." - -He said, "Mrs. Oswald, he was personal body guard to Mrs. Kennedy for -30 months and maybe he has a little opinion against you." - -I said, "Let him keep his personal opinions to himself. He is on a job." - -Now, there was another instance with this same agent. He followed -Marina around continuously. I'm going to make this plain. He followed -Marina around continuously. The pictures will always show him by Marina. - -We were in the bedroom, and he was in the bedroom. And we were getting -ready for the funeral. - -Marina was very unhappy with the dress--they bought her two dresses. -"Mama, too long." "Mama, no fit." And it looked lovely on her. You -can see I know how to dress properly. I am in the business world as -merchandise manager. And the dress looked lovely on Marina. But she was -not happy with it. - -I said, "Oh, honey, put your coat on, we are going to Lee's funeral. It -will be all right." - -And we had 1 hour in order to get ready for the funeral. - -I said, "We will never make it. Marina is so slow." - -She said, "I no slow. I have things to do." - -I am trying to impress upon you that Marina understands English, and -has always talked broken English. - -Now, this agent was in the room and Robert was on the telephone. That -is why he was allowed in the bedroom. - -While Marina was complaining about her dress, my little grandbaby, -2 years old--and she is a very precious little baby, they are good -children--was standing by her mother. And Marina was very nervous by -this time. She was not happy with the dress. And Marina was combing her -hair. She took the comb and she hit June on the head. I said, "Marina, -don't do that." And this agent--I wish I knew his name--snapped at me -and said, "Mrs. Oswald, you let her alone." I said, "Don't tell me what -to say to my daughter-in-law when she was hitting my grandbaby on the -head with a comb" in front of Robert Oswald. - -Now, why did this man do these things? - -Mr. RANKIN. Are you saying that the agent did anything improper, as far -as Marina was concerned? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Now, what do you mean when you say improper? - -Mr. RANKIN. Was there any improper relationship between them, as far as -you know? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. I am saying--and I am going to say it as strongly as -I can--that I--and I have stated this from the beginning--that I think -our trouble in this is in our own Government. And I suspect these two -agents of conspiracy with my daughter-in-law in this plot. - -The CHAIRMAN. With who? - -Mrs. OSWALD. With Marina and Mrs. Paine--the two women. Lee was set up, -and it is quite possible these two Secret Service men are involved. - -Mr. RANKIN. Which ones are you referring to? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Mike Howard and the man that I did not--did not know -the name, the man in the picture to the left. I have reason to think -so because I was at Six Flags and these are just some instances that -happened--I have much more stories to tell you of my conclusions. I -am not a detective, and I don't say it is the answer to it. But I -must tell you what I think, because I am the only one that has this -information. - -Now, here is another instance---- - -Mr. RANKIN. What kind of a conspiracy are you describing that these men -are engaged in? - -Mrs. OSWALD. The assassination of President Kennedy. - -Mr. RANKIN. You think that two Secret Service agents and Marina and -Mrs. Paine were involved in that, in the conspiracy? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I do. Besides another high official. I will tell you -the high official I have in mind when we go through that part of the -story, if you please. - -Mr. RANKIN. Well, now, could you tell us what you base that on--because -that is a very serious charge. - -Mrs. OSWALD. It is a very serious charge, and I realize that. I base -that on what I told you, the attitude of this man, and Mike Howard's -attitude also. - -Now, I have to continue. - -Mr. RANKIN. Have you described that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I have to continue. - -While at Six Flags, Marina was given the red carpet treatment. Marina -was Marina. And it was not that Marina is pretty and a young girl. -Marina was under--what is the word--I won't say influence--these two -men were to see that Marina was Marina. I don't know how to say it. Are -you getting the point? Let me see if I can say it better. - -Mr. RANKIN. You mean they were taking care of her, or were they doing -more than that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. More than taking care of Marina. - -Mr. RANKIN. Well, now, describe what more. - -Mrs. OSWALD. All right, I will describe it for you. - -I am not quite satisfied with the way I said that. Let me get my -thoughts together. - -I noticed that--and of course as I have testified, the way the man -treated me--and I was told he was a body guard for Mrs. Kennedy. We -were at Six Flags on November 24th, at Lee's death, and on November -26th Marina and I--before November 26th--Marina and I were very, very -friendly, very loving, everything was "Mama"--"Mama has a big heart." -And we planned to live together. - -I had an insurance policy that had expired on Lee. I was not able to -keep up the premium. And I had $863. But however I had not looked at -the policy for some years, and I was not quite sure that it was in -force. But otherwise I had no money and no job. I had given up my job -to come to the rescue. So I was very anxious to get home and get my -papers and let them see the copies of everything I had, and to find out -if I had my insurance policy, if it was in force, and also get some -clothes. - -From the 24th until the 26th I lived in my uniform, gentlemen. I did -not have any clothes at the Six Flags. Yet Robert Oswald was taken to -his home a couple of times to get clothes. And when I wanted to go home -and get clothes, they put me off. One time I broke down crying. I said, -"I don't understand it. You won't do anything for me, yet you drove -Robert all the way to Denton to get clothes." - -So the night of the 26th they took me home, and I got my papers. I -found that my insurance policy was in force. So I said to Marina, -"Marina, we all right. Mama has insurance policy, $800. You stay home -with baby and mama work, or mama stay home with baby and you work, and -at least we have a start." - -"Okay, Mama. I not want big house, Mama. I want small place." - -And this is the girl that has never had anything, and she only wanted -small things. Fine. - -On the date of the 22d, approximately 10 o'clock--this was in the -morning--I want to say something to Marina, and Marina shrugged me off -and walked away. - -Mr. DULLES. What date was this? - -Mrs. OSWALD. The 27th. That morning I had acted as interpreter for -an FBI agent, and Mr. Mike Howard said, "Would you like us to get a -Russian interpreter?" And he said, "No, Mrs. Oswald is doing fine." -And he took the testimony from me as an interpreter. So, you see my -daughter-in-law did understand English and answered me in her Russian -broken English, because the FBI man was satisfied. - -So when Marina shrugged me off, I thought right away that she -thought--because I had to use the name Lee so many times--that I was -hurting her husband, and maybe that is why she felt this way. So I -thought maybe I am just imagining things. So I waited quite a while, I -would say half an hour. I went to Marina again. And she walked away and -shrugged me off. - -So I walked into the living room, where my son, Robert Oswald, and the -Secret Service were and I said to Robert, "Robert, something is wrong -with Marina. She won't have anything to do with me." - -He said, "I know why. Marina has been offered a home by a very wealthy -woman"--all of this was done without my knowledge--"by a very wealthy -woman who will give her children education, and she didn't know how to -tell you." - -I said, "Well, Robert, why didn't you tell me?" - -Of course when I said it. I was emotionally upset. I said, "Robert, why -didn't you tell me?" - -He said, "Because just the way you are acting now." - -I said, "What do you mean the way I am acting now? I am acting -in a normal fashion. You are telling me that you are taking my -daughter-in-law and my grandchildren away from me, and I have lost -my son, and my grandchildren and daughter are going to live with -strangers. This is a normal reaction." - -"Well, that is why we didn't tell you. We knew you would take it that -way." - -And that is the last time I have talked to my daughter-in-law, Marina. -And that is the rift between Marina and I. There is no rift, sir? We -were going to live together. But this home was offered Marina--and I -will present this in evidence. - -Now, Mr. Gregory is involved--Mr. Gregory did all the Russian talking. -They all knew better but me. And I have more to the story. - -Yes, here it is. - -And there are other offers Marina had--other offers. - -So I was not able to be around Marina. The Secret Service saw to it. -And they gloated. - -Gentlemen, I am not imagining these things. These two men gloated of -the fact that now Marina is going to be fixed--you know, she is fixed -financially and otherwise. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is this Mrs. Pultz? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't even read this, sir, believe me. This was handed -to me by a reporter before I left, saying, "Mrs. Oswald, maybe these -things"--because he knows the story. This has all been published -publicly in newspapers, what I am saying. The Star Telegram could give -you all I am saying here. It has already been made public in the paper, -all of this. And he handed that to me. I never did see that article -until the other day. - -Mr. RANKIN. This article refers to Mrs. Oswald being offered a home, -and apparently a newspaper account--a newspaper account of the offer, -according to this newspaper account--the offer was by a Mrs. Pultz. -That is the one that you refer to when you handed this paper to us. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is offering her a home. - -Now, I have not read that. I know she was offered a home by a woman and -I will tell you further what I do know about this. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, I will ask you to identify this as the next -exhibit. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 169 for -identification.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, the reporter has marked that Exhibit 169, the -newspaper article you have just given us, is that correct? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. I now offer in evidence Exhibit 169 and ask please to -substitute a copy. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The document heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 169 for -identification was received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the date? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I left there on the 28th, so it would have to be the 27th. -It would have to be the 27th. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. Now, there were other people that offered her homes. - -Mr. RANKIN. But you seemed to think there was something improper or bad -about your son Robert wanting to get your daughter Marina taken care of -in this manner. I don't understand that. Can you explain it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Well--no--as I have explained before, Robert and -I are not close, we are not close as a family. But Robert is a very -easy-going person. He is not opinionated, particularly like I am. My -older son and Lee are my disposition. But because you are a Secret -Service man or somebody, if you tell him something, he will go along -and yes you. So he was part of this arrangement. They probably had to -have his consent. But he knew of the arrangement with Mr. Gregory and -Marina. They all knew it but me. I was not consulted about this at all. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you think Robert was trying to do something bad by it, -or just trying to look out for---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. He thought it was a good idea, that Marina should go -and live in this home. But I took a different attitude. I am not -interested in material things, gentlemen. I then went into my speech, -that I thought, as a family, Marina and I should stick together and -face our future together. I could see no reason--and I made this at -the Six Flags, and have made it public in the newspapers, I could see -no reason, no advantage of Marina living with strangers. I said that -before. I thought it would be better, original idea, Marina and I -had made, to live in my apartment and do the best we can. And I even -said--we have $863 to start with, and then if we don't make it "What -about you helping us?" - -"But give us a chance as a family. Don't put the girl in a strange -home, a Russian girl, a foreign girl, taken away from her Mama." - -Marina has no mother and father--she has a stepfather. But I was her -Mama up until this time. And I could not see Marina in a strange home. - -Well, I am going to prove this story to you. It is a fantastic story. -But as I go along--I have witnesses--and that is why I asked you, sir, -I would like these people called to back up these fantastic stories I -am telling you. It can be proven, sir. - -So I had no further contact with my daughter-in-law--once they came -out and said what they had planned. I had no inkling of it. That was -the--they wanted to keep her and the children away from me. - -That night, the night of November 27th--now, we were in a bedroom with -twin beds that we shared. They opened the studio couch in the living -room, and rolled June's bed, the baby bed in the living room, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by "they"? - -Mrs. OSWALD. The Secret Service had the maid come in with sheets and -everything and they got--opened the sofa into a bed. The Secret Service -rolled the baby bed from the bedroom into the living room. And I knew -that I was not wanted or involved. And I have a very dignified way -about me. I didn't say a word. What I did--I sat up in a chair all -night long in the living room, rather than to be so indignant as to -sleep in the bedroom where they had taken my daughter-in-law from me. I -sat up in a chair in the living room rather than be pushed aside like I -was being pushed aside. - -Mr. RANKIN. Well, now, what Secret Servicemen were these--Mr. Howard? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Howard was involved, and this other man. - -Mr. RANKIN. The same man? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This same man. And my son is in this, too. Robert was -part of this conspiracy that they were going to let her go to a home, -and they didn't tell me--and Mr. Peter Gregory. - -Mr. RANKIN. And did they move your daughter-in-law out into the living -room? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she slept on the sofa. And they moved June's -baby bed from the bedroom into the living room, by my daughter-in-law. -And I sat in a chair. I can do that. I am a nurse, and I can do without -sleep. And I had all the papers. I told you that the night before -they took me home to get my papers. And that is why I knew I had the -insurance money. So I started to work on the papers. And I sat up all -night long. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did Marina say about that arrangement? - -Mrs. OSWALD. There was nothing said between Marina and I. The last time -I had seen Marina was when she shrugged me off, and then this came out -why she shrugged me off. I have had no contact with Marina since. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, why do you think there is a conspiracy about this? Can -you explain that to us? - -Mrs. OSWALD. About this particular instance? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I don't say that is a particular instance. But it is -certainly a very unusual way to do a thing, a very unusual way--not to -consult me. Marina and I were friends. She was going to come and live -with me. I was going to share my money with her. And then they went -ahead and planned all this without my knowledge. - -Maybe you know the answer to it, I don't know. But there was no hard -feelings--even now I love Marina and I would take and help her any way -I can. - -So I don't understand these things. But I am telling you the way things -happen, the way I was excluded. And your Secret Service agents had part -of this. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you do not think Robert and the Secret Service agents -could be acting in good faith to try to just help Marina and her -children along? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I cannot see from my point of view that it would -be good that a foreign girl lives in a stranger's home, a perfect -stranger who has come to the police department and offered her a -home. We are talking about a perfect stranger. If she is a perfect -stranger--maybe she wasn't. I have no way of knowing. But I am going to -assume what I read. It would be much better for this girl to go live -in this stranger's home than to be with her family? This girl and my -grandchildren needed a family, which I was that family. I cannot see -that. - -Mr. RANKIN. What I am asking you is: Do you think it is possible that -Robert was just mistaken when he and the Secret Service man, if they -are involved, thought this might be a good plan. Isn't it possible they -were trying to do the right thing? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I think it was deliberate. I am sure--I don't -think. I am positive it was deliberate. And I will tell you why as we -go along. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, you said you thought it was deliberate. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I am trying to get everything in, so you can get a clear -picture. - -Mr. RANKIN. Well, this plan to have your daughter-in-law go and live -with another lady--this Mrs. Pultz--you said you did not think it could -be innocent or in good faith? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--because then this same Secret Service man, that I -don't know the name--now, I may be wrong about this--just a moment. -No--this is not the same man. - -One of the other Secret Service men had gone to talk to Robert's boss, -because Robert was worried about his job. So this happened in the -afternoon. I had no contact with Marina. And he came in and in front -of me he patted Robert on the shoulder and said, "Now, Robert, I have -talked to your boss and you are all right. I assured him you are not -involved in any way." - -So, gentlemen, Marina is taken care of; Robert is taken care of--I am -not feeling sorry for myself, believe me, because I can take care of -myself. But here is a mother who has come to the rescue, lost her job, -offered her good love and insurance money, and nobody has wondered -what is going to become of me. - -Mr. RANKIN. Well, did you think it was improper that the Secret Service -man would go to Robert's boss and tell him he was not involved, that -there was nothing improper? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. I think it was a fine gesture. And -that is the point I am trying to make out. Why are these fine gestures -to see that Marina is going to have a home and be taken care of, and -Robert's job is secure--but I am nothing. I was not included in the -plans. And what is going to become of me? I have no income. I have no -job. I lost my job. And nobody thought about me. - -I don't mean to imply I'm sorry for myself. I am trying to bring out a -point that through all of this, that I have not been considered, even -as much as to testify. I want to know why. I don't understand why. - -It is very strange. - -I packed during the night, sat up in the chair, as I said. - -So the next morning I am on my way home. I have no purpose to be there. -I was helping my daughter-in-law, and helping the children. But now I -am out of everything, so I insist on going home. - -Before going home, I asked to tell Marina goodby, and my grandchildren, -and what they have done this morning--they have taken her out of these -quarters and brought her next door, to the other quarters of the -Inn--it is just one door and a little courtyard to the other door. - -Mr. RANKIN. What day is this? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is the 28th. So the agent that was taking me -home--I'm sorry, but I'm very bad at names, and there were so many -agents, it is awfully hard for me to remember it all. I told him that -I wanted to tell Marina that I was going. He knocked on the door. The -Russian interpreter from the State Department, Mr. Gopadze, came to the -door, and the agent said, "Mrs. Oswald is going home and wants to tell -Marina and the children goodby." - -He said, "Well, we are interviewing her, and she is on tape. She will -get in touch with you." - -So I never saw Marina after that time. - -Now, what worried me so was what did Marina think. What did Marina know -of this, and what did she think? Did she think I deserted her? Did they -think I left without telling her goodby? This worried me very much. I -could picture the girl. What did she think? I didn't even get to tell -her goodby. - -So I tried in vain to see Marina. I have called Mr. F. V. Sorrels over -and over and over, and he has never told me that Marina did not want to -see me. And this, gentlemen, I have proof of. He always said, "Well, -Mrs. Oswald, I am not able to divulge where she is" and the regular -push-around. He is not telling me plainly I am not going to see Marina, -he is being very courteous to me, but not letting me see Marina--if I -am making this plain. And I have publicly blasted that. Over and over I -have tried unsuccessfully. - -Mr. Mark Lane, who is representing my son, talked with Mr. Jim Martin -and Mr. Thorne--Jim Martin is Marina's business manager, and Mr. Thorne -is her attorney. And Mr. Jim Martin and Thorne have stated to Mr. Mark -Lane that Marina did not want to talk to me. - -Now, this is approximately a month ago, I would say, when I first -engaged Mr. Mark Lane. And Mr. Mark Lane said to me that he was not -satisfied, when he gave me the information. I said, "No, I want Marina -to tell me that." How did I know it was Marina's quote? - -Mr. Sorrels never told me that Marina did not want to talk to me. But -this was told to Mr. Mark Lane. But I would not take that as a quote. I -wanted to hear it from Marina. - -So we persistently tried to see Marina. When I say we, almost every -reporter in the city of Fort Worth and Dallas has tried to see Marina. -Mr. Mark Lane has tried to see Marina. Mr. Olds, who is head of the -Civil Liberties Association--I don't know if that's the proper name--in -Fort Worth has tried to see Marina. And there have been many prominent -people trying to see Marina, because they could not understand how -Marina could be under such strict surveillance that no one could be -allowed to see Marina. There have been many, many people question -this. It has been questioned, why Marina would be under strict -seclusion for 6 weeks, with not a soul seeing Marina. I say not a soul. -My son saw Marina at Christmas time, and probably had seen her before -then. - -His family went with him--I checked with my daughter-in-law, Vada, and -she said she went with Robert for Christmas time. It came over the news -in Fort Worth that Marina's brother-in-law, Lee's brother, would be -with her at Christmas time, and Mrs. Marguerite Oswald was unavailable -for news. - -Gentlemen, I stayed home crying, hoping against hope that the Secret -Service would come and let me be with my family for Christmas time, -waiting there patiently. I was available for news. I had blasted this -in the paper over and over. I waited for them to come get me. But there -again, I am excluded. - -Do you know the answers to all these exclusions? I do not. - -The first time Marina ever made any statement or public appearance -was approximately 2 weeks ago, or maybe not that long. She was on an -exclusive television program. Channel 4 in Fort Worth, Tex., when she -stated publicly that in her mind she thought that Lee shot President -Kennedy. What an awful thing for this 22-year-old foreign girl to -think. She thinks in her mind. She doesn't know. But she thinks, -gentlemen. That tape can be sent back to you. That was her quote. I -watched every television program, and I took it down in black and -white. "In my mind, I think Lee shot President Kennedy." - -She doesn't know our American way of life. Lee Harvey Oswald will be -the accused assassin of President Kennedy when this information is over -with, believe me. - -She is a Russian girl, and maybe they do this in Russia. But what -I am going to say is that Marina Oswald was brainwashed by the -Secret Service, who have kept her in seclusion for 8 weeks--8 weeks, -gentlemen, with no one talking to Marina. - -Marina does not read English. Marina knows none of the facts from -newspaper account. The only way Marina can get facts is through what -the FBI and the Secret Service probably are telling her, or some of the -facts that Marina has manufactured since. - -I am sorry, gentlemen, but this is a true story. - -Mr. RANKIN. What do you base your claim on, that Marina was brainwashed? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Because for 8 weeks no one has been allowed to see Marina. -I do not believe in my mind that that is an American way of life. I -question the fact that it is even legal, that they can keep her in -strict seclusion with no one seeing her for 8 weeks, gentlemen. - -Now, there may be a reason for that. I don't know. But the American -people want some answer to that. I have over 1,500 letters questioning -that. The papers have blasted it continuously. - -Mr. RANKIN. If she didn't have somebody to look out for her, do you -think the various people that wanted to see her would keep her so busy -she could not even take care of the children? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Now, Mr. Rankin, I am not saying, even implying that the -Secret Service should not protect my daughter-in-law. I am grateful for -that, and I have expressed it. I am most grateful she has protection. -But would there have been any harm for me to talk to Marina with the -Secret Service around and let Marina tell me that she does not want to -see me? - -Mr. RANKIN. Well, let's leave you out of it. What about all the rest of -the people that would want--or did want to see Marina? - -Mrs. OSWALD. All right. - -Mr. RANKIN. And take her time, while she had to take care of the -children. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I agree with that. Marina should not see every Tom, Dick, -and Harry. I think they are doing a wonderful job in protecting her. -But when Mr. Mark Lane, who is an attorney, requested it, so we can -solve this, to just let Marina tell him that she doesn't want to see -her mama, and Mr. Olds, who is head of Civil Liberties, was refused -permission to see her, then we question it. - -No, I don't think all the people should see Marina. But people are -asking these questions, Mr. Rankin. They want to know why a high -official cannot see Marina, to satisfy the public's demand. - -Mr. RANKIN. Well, Marina had her own counsel at that time, she said. -Mr. Thorne was her attorney. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Now, we will get to Mr. Thorne. - -When I first contacted Mr. Thorne I said, "Mr. Thorne, how is my -daughter-in-law and grandchildren?" - -And Mr. Thorne really apologized to me. He said, "Mrs. Oswald, they are -fine. But I am unable to divulge their whereabouts." - -He volunteered the information to me. - -And I said, "Well, sir; I am not asking where they are"--because I had -already--by the time she got this attorney--by the time I had contacted -him, we had been fighting this thing to see Marina. But he volunteered -the information. He said, "Your daughter-in-law and grandchildren are -fine, but I am not able to divulge their whereabouts." - -I said, "I am not asking about their whereabouts." I said that I had -Lee's Marine book, which is a big, colorful book, the life of a Marine, -that Lee had sent to me, and Lee's baby book; that I had had in my -possession ever since he was a baby, that I gave to Marina and Lee when -they returned to Russia, and my husband's gold pocket watch I had all -those years I gave to Lee. So I asked Mr. Thorne about these things and -he said he would inquire about it. - -I said, "Mr. Thorne, while I am on the 'phone I do want to bring -something up. While I was at Six Flags, the day I left, the morning -I left, is the first time that sympathy cards started coming in, and -money. And these envelopes were addressed to Mrs. Marina Oswald and -Marguerite Oswald, or Mrs. Marguerite Oswald and Marina, to both." - -The Secret Service started to open the envelopes, and there were checks -and cash. Because of my prior story that they had pushed me aside, I -said, "Now, my moneys that come in that says 'and mother' I definitely -want my share." - -Believe me, gentlemen, I have never received 1 penny. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. They said yes--and my son was there when I said that--they -said they would divide it. If it was a $10 bill and it said the mother -of Lee and the wife, that I would get 5 and Marina would get 5. So when -I talked to Mr. Thorne I said, "I want to tell you, Mr. Thorne, while I -was at Six Flags, I know of moneys coming in, but I have never received -a penny. But I want you to know that the Secret Service in my home, -because they were in my home from the 28th until the 3d"--I believe it -was---- - -Representative FORD. Third of what? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This would be December. Because this was the 28th of -November--approximately the 3d. The money that came into my home that -way, 'Mrs. Marguerite Oswald and Marina Oswald' the Secret Service -divided right then and there. If it was a $10 bill, I got 5 and they -took 5 to give to Marina. Whether Marina ever got the money or not, I -have no way of knowing. But the money in my home was divided and the -share given to Marina. But I never did get the share from the Secret -Service at this time. - -So 2 weeks later---- - -Mr. RANKIN. How much did that amount to, that was divided in your home? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Very little. My contributions up to now are just a little -over $900--about $905. That is the money that has been given direct to -me, the mother of Lee Harvey Oswald. - -So about 3 weeks later--now, Mr. Lane comes in here. He has all of -these documents and all of these dates and everything. I don't know -about the dates. - -Mr. Thorne--from Mr. Thome's office and Mr. Martin I receive an -envelope about this size with mail for me, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald--not -"and Marina"--everyone open, gentlemen--opened, no cash, but checks, -made out to Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, that nobody else of course could -have any benefit from. This late date. And there were checks way in -November, in the beginning of December, that were held all this time. -But until I complained, then they decided to send them to me. - -Mr. Lane has in his possession photostatic copies of my mail that has -been opened by the Fort Worth Police. I had a tip from a reporter that -my mail at the mayor's office and the Fort Worth Police and the chief -of police was being photostatic copied. So I sent a telegram--and I -have these things--you will have everything I have--to each one, the -same telegram, saying that any mail addressed to Mrs. Marguerite Oswald -should be forwarded to her immediately--to me immediately at 2220 -Thomas Place. I received no mail. - -Three days later--I received no mail. - -So I called Mr. Sorrels and told Mr. Sorrels about the tip that I had. -And I knew it was a positive tip--I could feel sure this young man -was giving me the right information. I had much information that the -public knows, that they have helped me in this case, Mr. Rankin. So Mr. -Sorrels sent Mr. Seals, I think his name was, a Secret Service man down -and the chief of police gave Mr. Seals--we have this--my mail opened -and photostatic copies. I can produce this evidence. - -Now, what right--I am not an attorney--but we have a moral issue all -through this that I am fighting for. - -If the mail went to the chief of police, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, in -care of the chief of police--it well could be that they have the legal -right to open such mail. But they do not have the moral right, because -I was an international figure, and everybody knew my address. And the -chief of police and everybody else knew my address. And that mail -should have remained unopened. How much cash was taken out of those -mails? I do not know. And I am not really saying there was. But there -is quite a possibility that it was. - -Then I received another package from Mr. Thorne, and my mail was -opened. I called Mr. Sorrels about that. He said he knew nothing about -it. - -First I called Mr. Thorne and he said that is the way he got the mail. -So then I called Mr. Sorrells and he said he knew nothing about it. -I said, "Mr. Sorrels, I'm getting awfully tired of this. Mr. Thorne -doesn't know how my mail is being opened. He says that he got the mail -from the Secret Service. And now you are telling me that you do not -give the mail to Mr. Thorne. Where does my mail come from opened?" So -nobody knows anything, the things that have happened to me. - -My rights have been invaded continuously--continuously. Every -newspaper clipping was taken out of my home. Three letters from Lee, -from Russia. I offered all my information, as I explained over and -over, to the Secret Service. And while in my home, I was showing -them things--because I was proud of the things I have, and I think, -gentlemen, when you see everything I have you will see a different -picture of this boy. - -There were three letters taken from my letters from Lee. And how I came -to know that--a New York reporter had offered--he was going to write a -story and had offered to buy three of my letters. I told him he could -have his choice. And so he looked through the letters, and I looked -through them with him, and I missed these three letters. These three -letters would have been of importance to the Secret Service and to our -government. - -But you must remember, I have offered over and over to give any -information I have. - -One letter stated that Marina's uncle was a colonel in the Russian -Army--I may produce this now. Is that what we need to do next--the -letters? - -Representative BOGGS. Was a colonel in what? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Pardon? - -Representative BOGGS. One letter said he was a colonel in what? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That Marina's uncle was a colonel in the Russian Army. - -Would you like to look at these letters while I continue, Mr. Doyle? - -Mr. DULLES. Are these the lost letters? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, these are letters from Lee to me from Russia. - -Mr. DULLES. I thought you said three were lost. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, three were lost. The one about the Russian colonel -was lost--that the Secret Service men took--three letters--that would -be of importance for them. But I offered to give it to them. But they -were taken from my home. - -Representative BOGGS. How did you get them back? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I am going to tell the story, and I have witnesses. - -So when I missed them, Mr. Jack Langueth, who we can call as a witness, -who is a reporter for the New York Times, wanted to pay me for -letters--he printed the story in the paper with the three letters that -he bought from me, three different letters I am talking about now, and -printed how many letters I had, including the three letters that the -FBI man that Marina's uncle was a colonel. He printed the things in the -paper. - -So approximately 5 or 6 days later the Secret Service man--and I can -find his picture probably--came to my home and returned the three -letters and got a receipt from me for the three letters. - -Mr. RANKIN. How much did this reporter offer to pay you for the letters -and other things? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I got $50 for each letter. And I have the receipt. - -Mr. RANKIN. I don't understand yet. You offered to sell the letters to -him, or let him have use of them for $50 apiece? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. $150. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. And then he published them? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. Yes--he published the letters. It was published in the -New York Times, the three letters. - -Mr. RANKIN. Then they were returned to you. - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, he never did take the letters. Mr. Langueth never -did take the letters he bought from me out of my hand. As I told -you gentlemen, we went to a photostatic place and the letters were -copied, and I kept the originals. He paid me $50. That was printed -in the story. But the three letters that the Secret Service men had, -he printed in the story about Marina's uncle being a colonel in the -Russian Army. And that is the letter that the Secret Service man had. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you did not get paid for those at all? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No--these are different letters. So they returned those -letters to me, the Secret Service, and I gave them a receipt for them. -But they did not ask my permission to take them, or let me have a -receipt when they took them. So I am trying to point out the fact that -I got the three letters back, I would think, because the story in the -paper said that the Secret Service had these three letters and parts of -what they contained. So the three letters were returned to me, and I -had to sign a receipt for those three letters. - -Am I making that clear now? - -May I have some water, please? - -Representative FORD. Are we going to get these letters in the record? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Let me get the letters in the record, then. - -Mr. DOYLE. Let me go off the record a minute. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mrs. OSWALD. I am not able to go into the defection now, because I am -not through with this part. The defection starts an entirely different -story, if you want to know the true facts, and it will take quite a -while. - -What sticks in my mind is this one particular letter about Marina's -uncle. The other two I am not quite sure. - -Representative BOGGS. What does it say about her uncle? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I have to find the letter, sir. - -I want to say this, gentleman. And maybe you are not in agreement with -me. But all my life I have known and I have thought that a title does -not make a man. It may be presumptuous of me that I am accusing the -Secret Service--because they are the Secret Service. But there are men -in our Government, and the Secret Service, who are undesirable, just -like in any other organization--let's face it. We have such men as -Bobby Baker, who was a citizen well thought of. Charles Van Doren who -was well thought of. Mr. Fred Korth who was under investigation, he was -a wonderful citizen. I can go on and on. Yet these men turned out not -to be the right type. - -I say this because my son was a self-styled Marxist, and a known -defector, and that is why his guilt was proven by the Dallas Police. -And my son--had he been a Senator or someone in the higher field, maybe -they would not have picked him up so fast. Now, that is a fact of our -way of life, of human nature. Having a title doesn't mean that you are -the man back of the title. - -Mr. RANKIN. Could we take those letters now and have the reporter -identify them? Here is the one about the uncle in the Army? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is one I am sure of. - -Now, I did not finish the story of the woman offering Marina a home. I -have not finished that story, really. This affidavit that I showed you -about the woman offering Marina the home the morning of the 28th--I -picked up the newspaper and I read in the newspaper--I will be through -with this story in 1 minute. I picked up the newspaper on the 28th -of November and I read in the newspaper where this woman had offered -Marina a home. So I said to the agent that was sitting up--everybody -was sleeping, and as I told you I sat up all night---- - -Mr. RANKIN. This was 1963, after the assassination? - -Mrs. OSWALD. 1963. November 28. It was on the 27th that I knew my -daughter was offered a home. Nothing was said where. In fact, at the -time I thought she was going to live in Mr. Gregory's home. I just -thought that. I did not ask. I was so hurt, I did not ask. - -But on the morning of the 28th I picked up the paper and read this -story about the woman going to the Dallas Police offering Marina a -home. So I said to this agent, "Evidently that is who Marina is going -to live with." But I did not know. But on the 28th is when I saw the -story of the woman offering Marina the home. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, you have produced a number of letters that you -described as being letters received from your son, Lee Oswald, while he -was in the Soviet Union. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. And we have asked you if you could identify the three -letters that the Secret Service brought back to you and asked you to -give a receipt for. You said it is very difficult, if not impossible, -for you to do that. Is that right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not say that. I said that one letter I was -sure of, because it stated that her uncle was an officer in the Soviet -Union. That letter I am sure of. The other two letters--I would have -to go through the letters. I think I could spot them, because it would -be of importance to our country and the Secret Service to know--in -other words, it was important for them to know she had an uncle in the -Soviet Union. And the other two letters would be on that order. And -I believe maybe I could--I would not want to state a fact that these -two letters--I think I would be pretty close to choosing the other two -letters as the proper letters. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I wonder if it would be agreeable to you if -we would identify all of those letters that you received from your son -while he was in the Soviet Union, and then possibly when we recess you -could look them over and see---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that's perfectly all right. - -Mr. RANKIN. See if you can pick out the ones you gave a receipt for. - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is perfectly all right. Any way you want to do it is -all right with me. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, I will ask you to mark them, and Mr. -Liebeler, will you help in the marking, because the letters are covered -with glassine, and it may be hard to mark them with ink. I think by -putting those stickers on we can help you. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Not all of the letters have dates. I think by taking the -date on the back of the envelope it would be all right. And we had them -in order. I don't know if they are still in order. But we had them by -the dates. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, I offer in evidence Exhibits 170 to 179, -both inclusive, being pictures of the funeral and the casket that -Mrs. Oswald has produced here for the Commission, and ask leave to -substitute copies. - -The CHAIRMAN. They may be so introduced. - -(The photographs referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 170 -to 179 inclusive for identification, and received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. I then offer the various letters that Mrs. Oswald produced, -that she said were sent to her by her son, Lee Harvey Oswald, from -the Soviet Union. And I think it would be better for our record if I -briefly state the date that the envelopes bear in each case, so it can -be compared with the number. - -The CHAIRMAN. Very well. - -Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 180 bears the date of July 18, 1961, on the -envelope. - -Mr. DULLES. Mr. Rankin--is that the American or the Russian postmark? - -Mr. RANKIN. That is the American postmark. - -Mr. DULLES. Time of receipt in this country? - -Mr. RANKIN. That's right. - -Now, Mrs. Oswald, I understand from you there was one letter before the -letter bearing the date July 18, 1961, on the American postmark on the -envelope, and you do not have that here? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I may have it. I have many more papers and documents. I -have a suitcase almost full that I have not yet opened. The suitcase -was lost. We did not receive it until about 9 o'clock last night. - -Mr. RANKIN. You have not produced it today, though. - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. But there is one more letter. It is the very first -letter I received from Lee. - -Mr. RANKIN. I call the attention of the Commission to the statement in -Exhibit 180, "She was living at her aunt's place when I met her. They -are real nice people. Her uncle is a major in the Soviet Army." - -Exhibit 181, dated August 3, 1961, was the envelope postmarked United -States, August 10, 1961. I also offer that. - -Exhibit 182, dated October 2, 1961, with the American postmark October -10, 1961. I also offer that. - -In each case, Mr. Chairman, I ask leave to substitute copies in -accordance with our understanding. - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes. We will make a blanket ruling on all of them when -you finish. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes, sir. - -Exhibit 183, dated October 22, 1959, with the American postmark on the -envelope October 30, 1961. I offer it. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you say 1959 and then 1961? - -Mr. RANKIN. '61---- - -Mr. DULLES. It is all '61? - -Mr. RANKIN. You are correct--October 22, 1959, is the date on the -letter. - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is incorrect. - -Mr. RANKIN. And on the envelope it is October 30, 1961, Vernon, Tex. -Mrs. Oswald, can you explain that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Evidently Lee put the date incorrect--because I had -no contact with Lee from the time--I had one contact with Lee from the -time that he defected to Russia. And the only contact was when he was -at the Metropole Hotel in Moscow. Then the next contact was when the -State Department wrote me his address, which was July, or June 1961. So -where Lee put the 1959, I would say it was just an error, because the -postmark proves the date. - -As I have been saying FBI instead of Secret Service--I mean it is -just---- - -Mr. RANKIN. A slip of some kind? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. Is the 1959 letter available, the Metropole Hotel letter? - -Mrs. OSWALD. When we go into the defection, I have letters from 1959 -that I myself have sent to Lee and have been returned, and, gentlemen, -they are unopened, and I will give you the privilege of opening my -thoughts to my son. They were returned unopened, because he was not -located. - -Mr. RANKIN. I might answer your question, Mr. Dulles. We have a copy of -the Metropole letter of 1959. - -Mr. DOYLE. Mr. Rankin, could I check--your Exhibit 182, the one you -called just before this--I gathered that you gave a date of the letter -and also a date of the postmark. Am I correct--October 2, 1961, is the -date of the letter, and October 10, 1961, is the postmark. - -Mr. RANKIN. That's correct. - -Mr. DOYLE. Thank you, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, with regard to Exhibit 183, which bears the date -October 22, 1959, in error, with October 30, 1961, as the postmark -on the envelope, I wish to call the Commission's attention to this -reference. - -"Marina's maiden name was Prusakova. Her aunt and uncle's address -in Minsk is"--and then the address is set out in Russian. And then -continuing the same sentence--"they don't speak any English. However, -her uncle is an Army colonel soon to retire." - -Mrs. OSWALD. And that I would think would be the letter that the -Secret Service--was one of the letters that the Secret Service, as I -previously stated, had. - -Now, may I say something here? - -Marina uses two names--Prusakova and Nikolaevna. Whether she was -married before, or whether she uses two maiden names, I do not know. -But I have a record of both names. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 183. - -Representative FORD. Mr. Rankin, don't we have a record of those two -names? Isn't one her maiden name and the other by her mother--and the -other by her stepfather? - -Mr. RANKIN. That is the record we have. That is what Mrs. Marina Oswald -testified to. She testified in regard to Nikolaevna. And the other name -appears on her papers as the father. - -Mrs. OSWALD. But now Lee has said in one of those letters that her -name is Nikolaevna. But then when he asked me in one of the letters -to get an affidavit of support that Marina could come to the United -States, that name appeared--Nikolaevna. Yet there are a couple of -letters where he refers to her name as Prusakova. And I have it in his -handwriting--when he gave me the slip of paper for the baptism he used -Prusakova--Marina Prusakova Oswald. He did not use the name in the -letters. That is what I find peculiar. - -Mr. RANKIN. The explanation was that the Prusakova was the -identification of the father, which is often done. And she explained -that with regard to the child they did not want to name June Lee Oswald -with your son's name, if you recall--that is your son did not want -that. But the Russian Government insisted that the father's name had to -be shown. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I am familiar with that. I have done research on -that. In Russia the father's name is used even if it is a girl. Now, -Mr. Peter Gregory--his name is Peter Gregory, and his father's name is -Peter, so his name is Peter Peter Gregory. They always use the father's -name as a second name, regardless of sex. So June is named June Lee -Oswald, which is Lee's name. And if there were two Lees it would be Lee -Lee Oswald. That I know of. - -Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 184 is dated November 8, 1961, and bears a postmark -on the envelope November 18, 1961. I offer it in evidence. - -Exhibit 185 is dated November 23d, without any year on the letter -itself, with the postmark December 4, 1961, as the American postmark on -the envelope. I offer Exhibit 185. - -Exhibit 186 is Christmas greetings and bears the date December 12, -1961, stamped on the envelope. I offer Exhibit 186. - -Exhibit 187 bears the date December 13, 1961, on the letter, and bears -the postmark date December 26, 1961, on the envelope. I offer Exhibit -187. - -Exhibit 188 bears the date December 20th, without any year on the -letter, and the date January 2, 1962, stamped on the envelope. I offer -Exhibit 188. - -Exhibit 189 bears the date January 2d, and the stamped postmark on the -envelope January 11, 1962. I offer Exhibit 189. - -Exhibit 190 bears the date January 23d, on the envelope, January 22, -1961, written on the back of the envelope. I offer in evidence Exhibit -190. - -Exhibit 191 bears the date January 20th, and stamped on the envelope is -January 29, 1962. I offer Exhibit 191. - -Mr. DULLES. These are all airmail letters? - -Mrs. OSWALD. They are all registered return receipt mailed. Everything -I had to sign for. - -Mr. DULLES. Nine or 10 days apparently, it took. - -Representative BOGGS. That is right--about 10 days, each one of them. - -Mr. RANKIN. Apparently--it states "Par Avion". But this one bears -a mark February 1, 1962, on Exhibit 192, and the letter itself is -February 1, 1962. That is pretty fast. - -Mr. DULLES. It must be 11. Isn't there a 1 left out on the other side? - -Mr. RANKIN. Well, it is in handwriting. So that would be pretty fast -mail. I offer Exhibit 192. - -Exhibit 193, dated February 9, 1962, on the letter, and it is stamped -on the envelope as February 23, 1962. I offer Exhibit 193. - -Exhibit 194 is dated February 15, 1962, on the letter, and stamped on -the envelope March 1, 1962. I offer Exhibit 194. - -Exhibit 195 is dated February 24th, without a year date, and the -envelope is stamped March 7, 1962. I offer Exhibit 195. - -Exhibit 196 is dated March 28th, stamped on the envelope is April 9, -1962. I offer Exhibit 196. - -Exhibit 197 is dated April 22d, without a year date on the letter, and -stamped on the envelope is April 28, 1962. I offer Exhibit 197. - -Exhibit 198 is dated May 30, 1962, on the letter, and is stamped on -the envelope June 6, 19--it doesn't show clearly what the year is, but -there is a 196, and I take it is 1962. I offer Exhibit 198. - -The CHAIRMAN. All of the documents that have just been offered in -evidence may be admitted and take the numbers assigned to them. - -(The documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 180 through -198 for identification, were received in evidence.) - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't believe this letter belongs with the letters. May -I see it, please? Is that a letter from Russia? I don't think so, from -what I can see from here. - -Mr. RANKIN. It purports to be, Mrs. Oswald. I hand it to you. It is -Exhibit 198 you are speaking of? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I'm sorry. There was another very important letter -of this size that I thought maybe became confused with the Russian -letters. You will have to forgive me, Chief Justice Warren, but this is -quite a big undertaking. - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes. I just wanted to keep the record straight. It is all -right. - -Mr. RANKIN. I ask leave, Mr. Chairman, to substitute copies in each -instance. - -The CHAIRMAN. That may be done. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, Mrs. Oswald, will you proceed with telling us how you -determined or concluded that there was a conspiracy between the Secret -Service people that you described and Marina Oswald? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, when I stopped--I have to remember where I stopped. -Now, am I still at the Six Flags? - -Mr. RANKIN. The last I recall you were still there. You had also -described, if you remember, the offer of Mrs. Pultz to take your -daughter-in-law and provide her a home. You have said that you had not -seen your daughter for quite some time, and you tried to communicate -with her. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes--I was trying to communicate with her. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you talked to Mr. Thorne? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--that was where my mail had been opened. And Mr. Mark -Lane has my mail and the photostatic copies of the mail. - -Mr. RANKIN. I think the Commission would be very much interested in how -you conclude that there was a conspiracy--if you can help on that. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I can help you. But I have many, many stories. I have -to start from the defection. I have a story of Lee's life at age 16 -that maybe you know about, maybe you don't. And I have many stories, -gentlemen. I cannot do all these stories in these 6 hours I have been -here today. I have covered quite a bit. I have many stories. - -Representative BOGGS. Why did your son defect to Russia? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I cannot answer that yes or no, sir. I am going to go -through the whole story, or it is no good. And that is what I have been -doing for this Commission all day long--giving a story. - -Representative BOGGS. Suppose you just make it very brief. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I cannot make it brief. I will say I am unable to make it -brief. This is my life and my son's life going down in history. And I -want the opportunity to tell the story with documents, as I have been -doing. I am not going to answer yes or no, because it is no good. - -Representative BOGGS. Well, you use the expression "defector." I did -not use that expression. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I said "so-called defector." The papers have "defector" -and blown it up. - -The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mrs. Oswald, you have told us, though, that you -believed that Mrs. Marina Oswald and Mrs. Paine and two Secret Service -agents were in a conspiracy that resulted in the assassination of the -President. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And I also say---- - -The CHAIRMAN. What Mr. Rankin has asked you is what led you to the -belief that there was such a conspiracy? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I can answer that, sir. But just to answer in one -sentence---- - -The CHAIRMAN. No, you don't have to do it in one sentence. Take your -own time, but stick to that one subject, please, until we get rid of -that, and then we will go to the other things. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, it is now quarter to four. And this is a very long -story. - -The CHAIRMAN. Don't worry, we will give you the time. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Would you please consider I am very emotionally upset and -tired, sir. I was up until 1 o'clock this morning fixing these papers -for the Commission. When Mr. Rankin asked me to come on Thursday, they -were not in the order they are now. - -The CHAIRMAN. You mean you cannot go on this afternoon? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Not the whole story. - -The CHAIRMAN. Well, give us as much as you can of it, and we will stop -whenever---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I have so far given you enough story to state this -as a fact--that I believe--I am saying as I believe, sir, because if -I knew who shot President Kennedy, I would be more than happy to tell -you, and we would end it right then and there. But there is speculation -among everyone. So naturally there is speculation by myself, and these -stories I have told you are fact. - -Marina became very unhappy with America. This I know for a fact. And -then I will say this is part of another story. - -Marina told me at Mrs. Paine's home that she wrote to the Russian -counsel to go back to Russia because, "Lee not get work." Now, that is -why Lee tried to get a visa in Mexico. But you see, sir, I was going to -tell that whole story of that. But I will answer this--and that is what -I based that on, too. - -It was Marina who wrote to the Russian counsel for exit visas, and Lee -followed it up. That is Marina having Lee do this. And she told me -herself. Yet she states that Lee wanted to live in Russia and Cuba. But -Marina wrote to the Russian counsel, "Mama, Lee not get work." So she -wanted to go back to Russia. She liked America. She wanted to stay here. - -Mr. RANKIN. About what date was this? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This was the night in Mrs. Paine's home. I didn't tell you -that, because these other stories are important, and I was going to -bring it in for the Mexican trip. That is why I think you are confusing -me. I'm sorry. But these stories--the way I want to say it, I would not -forget anything by going in sequence. This way, when you are bringing -me questions from the Mexican story and from the defection, you are -throwing my mind off. - -The CHAIRMAN. What story do you want to get to now? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I have so many stories. And I have gone through about -three or four today, complete stories. - -The CHAIRMAN. Well, select one of them, please, and let's don't argue -about the order. I want you to tell your story---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. My energy is exhausted, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. I want you to tell your story in your own way. And if -this one exhausts you, select another story, and tell that. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, can you tell me what short story I can tell, Mr. -Doyle? - -Mr. DOYLE. Why don't you start with--start and tell the members of the -Commission about your accident and Lee's going to Russia. - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is a very long story. - -Mr. DOYLE. I know. But start it, and if you get tired at all, you -advise the Commission, and I am certain that---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. I will have something very important to this Commission -that I would like to say, that would take up some time. - -Mr. Rankin, I spoke with you, I think it was Thursday, December 6th, -and I told you that since it was publicly known I was going to appear -before the Warren Commission, that I would like to have protection, as -you recall. I did not get protection, sir. And so the next morning I -called you, approximately 9 o'clock, in the morning and told you that I -didn't have protection, and I was very concerned. And this would have -been Friday, the second call, and that I was going to the bank, to my -safety deposit vault, and get the necessary papers. And I definitely -wanted complete surveillance, because the papers were going to be with -me in my home, and the public knew I was going to testify, and I wanted -that protection. - -Now, you said, you would get in touch with Mr. Sorrels, sir, and have -Mr. Sorrel's call me, which he did approximately an hour after my -request to you that I did not have protection. Mr. Sorrels called me -and said "Mrs. Oswald, I understand that you want to go to the bank -and get your important papers out of the bank, and you have requested -protection." - -I said, "Yes. I thought I had protection last night. I woke up 4 -o'clock in the morning with all the lights lit, getting papers together -and cleaning the house." Because the telephone started to ring -consistently. - -I would have never done that if I would have known I didn't have -protection. I was leaving myself wide open. - -So he said, "Well, is your attorney in town?" - -I said, "No, he is not." - -He said, "May I suggest this, Mrs. Oswald"--first, he said, "What do -you intend to do with the papers?" - -I said, "The papers will stay with me." - -He said, "Is your attorney in there?" - -I said, "No, sir, he is an out of town attorney." - -He said, "May I suggest this. May we get a large brown envelope and put -sealing wax on it, and you put the papers in our safety deposit vault." - -I said, "No, sir, those papers do not leave my hands. I have had an -understanding with Mr. J. Lee Rankin that the papers were going to stay -with me, and that I would have complete surveillance while the papers -were in my home. Now, Mr. Sorrels, I want that surveillance. I am very -uneasy." - -He said, "Mrs. Oswald"--this was approximately 10 o'clock in the -morning--"Mrs. Oswald, I will not be able to have anyone there before 1 -o'clock." - -I said, "That is just fine." - -Mr. Mike Howard came out at 1 o'clock. We did some errands. I had to -buy some luggage, and a few little things for the trip. Then we had -supper. And at 5:30 we picked up the papers, because on Friday in Fort -Worth, Tex., the bank opens from 4 to 6--on Friday evening. So we -picked up the papers before 6 o'clock. - -Now, I thought I had protection that night. I had protection that night -until 12 o'clock. And then I understand that the Fort Worth police were -circling the neighborhood. - -Now, that is not complete protection. - -I am a government witness, with important papers. And Mr. Rankin had--I -requested protection--suppose someone had come to the door, or just -shot through my home? The police circling three or four blocks away is -not complete protection. - -So Saturday morning I wanted to go out to breakfast. I kept opening -the door and looking through the windows. And I never did see any men -circling the neighborhood. There was nobody around. At 10:30 this -morning I was still doing that. And by the way, a police car passed by -and I hailed him and asked him if he could check in the neighborhood -for the Secret Service, if they were circling the neighborhood--because -I want to put my garbage out, and I needed to go out, didn't have -breakfast. He said he didn't know what the Secret Service looked like, -and he offered to come to the back and put the garbage out for me, -which this Fort Worth policeman did. - -So at 11 o'clock I called Mr. Mike Howard's home. His wife answered the -phone. - -I said, "I am very uneasy. I don't have protection. I have been looking -for Secret Service men all morning." - -I was going out on the porch--I was opening the screen door and going -out on the porch. There is a school ground opposite my house. And -nobody ever came. I was not under protection. - -So she said, "Mrs. Oswald, they have their orders." - -I said, "Well, where is Mr. Howard?" - -She said, "He is on his way to your home." - -This was Saturday, at approximately 11:45. Well, I have it written -down. 11:45. - -So Mr. Mike Howard when I told him that I was stranded, and could not -go out to breakfast, and there was things I needed to do, he realized I -was very upset, and I had a legitimate complaint, and he realized I was -on my way to Washington. - -So in my home he called Mr. Sorrels, who is a special agent in charge -of the Secret Service and Mr. Sorrels was not at home. He talked to his -daughter. And he said, "It is most important. Would you have him call -me?" - -So he sat in my home and waited for the call. About half an hour later -Mr. Sorrels called. - -He said, "Mr. Sorrels. I want to know what to do on this particular -case?" - -And there was some conversation back and forth. And it went on back and -forth conversation. - -So I said, "I am getting very upset about not knowing the entire -conversation. I want to tell Mr. Sorrels that if he doesn't have the -authority, to give me complete protection, I want to know the man over -him, so I can get complete protection." - -Mr. Mike Howard said, "He heard you, Mrs. Oswald." - -So I don't know what went on on the other end of the line. - -But Mr. Mike Howard was on the spot. - -He said, "Well, Mr. Sorrels, it is this way. She is going to -Washington, and Mrs. Oswald wants to go here and wants to go there. And -if we are not around to take her, she will certainly complain when she -gets to Washington." - -So I am assuming now--I am speculating, like everybody else--that -Mr. Sorrels probably could have said, "Well, let her think she has -protection," because Mr. Mike Howard had to come back in front of me, -to his superior, and say, "That is no good. She might want to go some -place, so we have to be here. I want to know what to do." - -And then I got protection. - -Now, isn't that peculiar--that I am a witness, with important papers, -and supposed to be under surveillance, and I am not getting protection? - -I would like to know the answer to these things. And Mr. Rankin himself -called Mr. Sorrels. - -Mr. RANKIN. I talked to Mr. Kelley. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I am sorry--but I knew you had placed a call, because Mr. -Sorrels called me and said you had placed a call. - -So why didn't I have complete protection? - -There is a lot of "why's." There are a lot of "why's" that have to be -answered. - -Now, the man last night that met me at the airport--there were two -Secret Service men. One of the NBC men, I think it is--I am not quite -sure--was at the station. He asked me questions, and he knows about all -of this, because he was in Fort Worth, Tex. - -I would know his name if you would say it. Dave Benoski, I believe it -is. - -But he asked me a question. He said, "Mrs. Oswald, have you seen your -daughter-in-law?" - -I said, "No, I have not seen my daughter-in-law since Thanksgiving Day." - -"Well, is it the Secret Service who have kept you from seeing your -daughter-in-law?" - -And I said, "Yes, it is the Secret Service who has kept me from seeing -my daughter-in-law." - -Which, to me, is a fact. - -So in the car, with your two Secret Service agents, one was Mr. Brown -and one was--I am very bad about names--he said, "Mrs. Oswald, what -makes you want to blame the Secret Service? The time to have blamed the -Secret Service was when it happened." - -And I said, "I did blame the Secret Service when it happened. I made a -report in Fort Worth, Tex., about that." - -And I said, "The question was asked me." I answered him truthfully, -"Yes, that the Secret Service have kept me from my daughter-in-law." - -So he said, "Well, has it occurred to you that your daughter-in-law -doesn't want to see you?" - -And I said, "She made the statement in Washington, the first time I -have known of that, from my daughter-in-law's lips, that she did not -want to see me." - -And Mr. Sorrels never told me. - -Now, again, I don't believe this Secret Service man had the right to -quiz me like he did. I was very upset. Mr. Doyle can verify the fact. -When he came to the hotel I was on the verge of tears, because of this -quizzing. - -The point I want to make--he said, "Isn't it true that you have had -complete protection by the Secret Service for the last 2 weeks, ever -since the testifying began?" - -I said, "No, sir; it is not true." - -Now, where does he get the idea I have been under surveillance for 2 -weeks? I don't understand these things. - -Mr. DOYLE. Tell them about the defection. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Would you please consider that I can't go any more today? -It is 4 o'clock. The defection is a very long and important story -that leads into a story where a recruiting officer at age 16 tried to -get Lee to enlist into the Marines. And it is a very important story, -gentlemen. And I think you would be quite interested in it for the -record. - -The CHAIRMAN. We will recess now until tomorrow. Mr. Doyle, I -understand in the morning you have a court appearance that you must -make. But you will be available at 2 o'clock. - -Mr. DOYLE. Two o'clock. Your Honor. - -The CHAIRMAN. Very well, we will recess now until 2 o'clock tomorrow -afternoon. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I appreciate it, because I was up until late last night -trying to get the papers for you. It wouldn't do you any good if I -break down. - -The CHAIRMAN. Well, we don't want to overdo the situation in any way. -So we will adjourn until 2 o'clock tomorrow. - -(Whereupon, at 4 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -_Tuesday, February 11, 1964_ - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD RESUMED - -The President's Commission met at 2 p.m. on February 11, 1964, at 200 -Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. - -Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Hale -Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Allen W. Dulles, members. - -Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel; John Doyle, attorney for Mrs. Marguerite Oswald; and -Leon Jaworski, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas. - - -The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will come to order. Are we ready to -proceed? - -Mr. DOYLE. If it please Your Honor---- - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Doyle. - -Mr. DOYLE. Mr. Mark Lane is present as counsel, as I understand, for -Mrs. Oswald. Although I have not talked to Mrs. Oswald about the -matter, as I understand it Mr. Lane represented her from time to time, -in one capacity or another in the past. - -I do not know the particulars. Mrs. Oswald or Mr. Lane could better -advise the Commission about the point. - -Of course my designation was at the request of Mrs. Oswald to act in -her behalf, since there was no counsel of her choice present at the -time. - -The CHAIRMAN. True. - -Mr. DOYLE. In view of the appearance--I wonder if it might be -straightened out--if Mr. Lane wishes to enter his appearance in the -matter. - -Of course I would immediately respectfully move for leave to withdraw. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, what is your wish? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, Mr. Lane is just here for a few hours, Chief Justice -Warren. He flew in just for a few hours. He is catching a 4 o'clock -plane out. And I thought--he had asked permission just to sit in for -these few hours. - -The CHAIRMAN. Either he represents you or he does not. - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, he does not represent me. - -The CHAIRMAN. Then we will excuse Mr. Lane. - -Mr. LANE. Mr. Chief Justice---- - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Lane, now really--either you are here as the attorney -for Mrs. Oswald or you are not entitled to be in this room--one of the -two. - -Mr. LANE. May I ask, Mr. Chief Justice, if it is permissible for me -to function at Mrs. Oswald's request as her counsel together with Mr. -Doyle, just for an hour or two, and then be excused. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Doyle has said that if you are her attorney he is -not. And Mr. Doyle is doing this as a public service. We must respect -his views in the matter. - -Mr. LANE. I see. I did explain to Mr. Doyle before I came into the room -exactly what the situation was. It was not until now that I understood -his response. - -Under those circumstances, I wonder if I might confer with Mrs. Oswald -for just a minute or two. - -The CHAIRMAN. If Mrs. Oswald wants to, she may. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, thank you. - -The CHAIRMAN. All right. - -You may take another room, if you wish. - -(Brief recess.) - -The CHAIRMAN. All right. - -Mr. LANE. Under the circumstances, since I do have to leave and I will -not be able to be here for the rest of the afternoon's session and for -subsequent sessions--under those circumstances, since Mr. Doyle will -not remain on jointly with me, I will at this time withdraw. - -The CHAIRMAN. Very well. Now, we will continue. Mr. Rankin, you may -continue with the hearing. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, could you tell us first now, while you are -fresh, about this conspiracy that you said that you knew about? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--If you would like me to do it now. I was going to -lead up to all the fundamentals, to my way of thinking. I have no -proof, because naturally if I did I don't think we would be here. - -But I feel like there is a lot of speculation about everything. - -My way of thinking is because the involvement of myself at Six Flags -and the way I was treated, as I have already put into the testimony, -and as I stated yesterday, also, that I was supposed to be under -protective custody, and I was not. - -I wonder why I didn't have protective custody, why I am not important -enough, with papers out of the vault, and appearing before the hearing, -that Mr. Sorrels, head of the Secret Service, didn't give me protective -custody, even though you, yourself, Mr. Rankin, required it. - -These are the things I have to face that to me are very unusual. - -Mr. RANKIN. Well, it is such a serious charge to say that these two -Secret Service men and your son and--I didn't understand for sure -whether you included anyone else in your charge--were involved in a -conspiracy to assassinate the President. - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, no---- - -Mr. RANKIN. And your daughter-in-law. - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is not my statement. I said I thought that we have a -plot in our own government, and that there is a high official involved. -And I am thinking that probably these Secret Service men are part of it. - -Now, I didn't say in a conspiracy--make it as strong as you did. I have -made it strong. But I am under the impression that possibly there is -a leak in our own government. And when I come to these papers--and I -specifically yesterday morning asked about Senator Tower. - -Now, I am not throwing any reflection on Senator Tower. But he made the -statement in the paper that he had a letter from the State Department -saying that Lee had renounced his citizenship. - -Now, you see, I don't have that paper with me. I had it yesterday -morning. But his whole quotes--the dates and everything of the letter -that he was supposed to have had is not in correspondence with the -dates that I have from the State Department papers which you gentlemen -know that I have all these papers from the State Department. Nothing -corresponds with what I have. - -So I wanted to know and see this letter that Senator Tower claims he -has. It could have been that it was an error in newspaper reporting, -and I will say in slang he could have shot his mouth off, because he -said he would not help the boy when the boy wrote him the letter. - -Representative FORD. Mr. Chairman, I saw the letter that Lee Harvey -Oswald wrote to Senator Tower the day after the assassination. And -I believe I also saw the response that he received from one of the -agencies of the Federal Government. Senator Tower had the original -of the letter. If it is not in our Commission files, I am sure it is -available for the Commission files--along with, whatever exchange of -correspondence he had with the Department of State concerning the -matter. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, now, what is of utmost interest to me in this -particular case is if there is such a letter, and it does not -correspond with anything that I have, I would like to know who in the -State Department wrote this particular letter. - -Representative FORD. I would not know who in the State Department -wrote the letter. I would suspect it was the Assistant Secretary for -Congressional Affairs, Fred Dutton, I believe. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I am not suspecting, because I have many, many letters -from the State Department, and I also have something else that I will -present that maybe would be another party involved. There is very -conflicting testimony. - -You must realize that I went to Washington in 1961 and was in -conference with three officials. And this was another Administration. - -Now, I don't know much about politics, gentlemen. But I do know a -little from the news. - -Lee's defection was in one Administration--right? - -And now this is of another Administration, the Kennedy Administration. -And there could be a leak in the State Department. That is not -impossible. - -So I have two instances that I, myself, am not satisfied. - -Mr. RANKIN. A leak is so much different from a conspiracy to -assassinate the President, though. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, but this leak this could be the party involved in the -assassination of the President--the high officials I am speaking of. I -cannot pin it down to one sentence, gentlemen. - -Mr. RANKIN. Well, you named the Secret Service men, two of them. - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is right. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, do you have anything that shows you that either of -those men were involved in the conspiracy to assassinate President -Kennedy? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I will answer that emphatically no. What I have stated -is the way they treated me, sir. I elaborated the way these two men -treated me--correct? I did that testimony yesterday. - -So I have to consider these two men. I will put it that way. - -Mr. RANKIN. Let's consider Marina Oswald. Do you have anything that -will show that she was involved in any conspiracy to assassinate -President Kennedy? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I feel like Marina is involved and also Mrs. Paine, yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, what do you have in that regard? - -Mrs. OSWALD. All right--because Marina--now this I have said to Mr. -Jack Lengett, who is a New York Times newspaperman a long time ago. And -I was ashamed to say it to anyone else. And I didn't tell it to him for -a long time. - -The story yesterday at the Six Flags, when I said to you Marina -shrugged me off, and the second time she shrugged me off. The second -time she said--and I would not say it now unless I had told Mr. Jack -Lengett--she said, "You no have job." - -In other words, since Marina was being offered a home, then you go -to--"You don't have job." - -Before she was satisfied to take $863 and live with me. I was giving -her my money and giving her my love. And then, "You no have job." - -I am trying to show you the disposition of my daughter-in-law. I love -her. But I am trying to show you that there is two sides. I told you -how she hit the little girl with the comb. "Mama, I no need you, Mama. -You don't have job." - -Mr. RANKIN. Why does that show she was involved in any conspiracy? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Because I am going to try to show there is discrepancies -all along. She was not supposed to speak English. - -I testified that I, myself, questioned her for an FBI agent. I acted as -interpreter. So Marina did know English and understand English. So that -is a question. - -Mr. RANKIN. I thought you said she spoke broken English. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Broken English. But she is not supposed to speak English -at all, until now that she has learned English. That has been -publicized over and over. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you think she could understand English fluently? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I also told you when she lived with me that -month in my home, how we conversed and talked. And yet the impression -is that Marina came here and didn't speak English at all. - -Mr. RANKIN. How does that show she conspired to assassinate the -President? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Because Marina now is not happy. Marina was very happy, I -explained to you, the month she was with me in the beginning that they -had rented this house. And then Marina made friends, very, very many -friends. And Marina became discontented with Lee. Lee could not give -her the things she wanted, what he told her about America. And Marina -now has become discontented with me. I don't mean now--I mean at the -Six Flags. - -Mama always had a big heart. I quit a job to help these children, and -that is perfectly all right. That is my nature. - -But then, when she has somebody else, you are pushed aside. - -I am trying to show this. And, as I go along--I cannot help but face -this, gentlemen, it is a fact. I cannot help but face these things. - -So I am under the impression--and this is speculation, like anything -else--circumstantial evidence, let's say. - -I am just a layman. That is what you have against my son. Nobody saw -him with a rifle shoot the President. So you have mostly circumstantial -evidence. - -I have to think of all these things, who might be involved in this. - -The Secret Service men, surely you will admit, did not guard our -President properly. - -Now, that was also stated in the newspaper by, I think it is, Secret -Service Judge Baughman--am I saying that right? He is the one that--how -Lee got out of the building, and why the President--there are many, -many people that wonder. So I, too, am wondering. - -So I say that President Kennedy was improperly guarded. And I am not -the only one that says that, sir. So I have to consider that. I have to -consider the way I, myself, was treated at Six Flags for the three days. - -When I came here today--I have these notes, something very important -about that particular incident at Six Flags, to back up my story with a -witness. You don't have to take my word for it. - -Mr. RANKIN. What else is there now in regard to Marina that caused you -to think she conspired to kill President Kennedy? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--because everything is laid out in Mrs. Paine's home -and Marina's home. The gun was in the garage. - -Mr. RANKIN. Well, that doesn't make Marina do it, does it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, but Marina told the police that the gun was there -the night before. She saw the gun in the garage the night before. She -didn't see Lee take it that morning. But she made a statement that she -saw the gun the night before. - -The pictures of Lee with the rifle came from that home. If Lee is going -to assassinate the President or anybody else, is he going to have -photographs laying all around with the gun? No, sir. - -And there is too much evidence pointing to the assassination and my son -being the guilty one in this particular house. - -All through the testimony, sir, everything has come from this -particular house. And so I am a thinking person, I have to think. - -Mr. RANKIN. Why does that show that Marina had anything to do with the -conspiracy? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, we are speculating, let's say. Marina is not happy. -Lee can't give her any money and things. And she has made friends with -these Russian folks that have cars and homes. And they are not happy -because this Russian girl doesn't have anything. They are not happy -about that. - -And I am trying to show the disposition of the girl. - -I love my daughter-in-law even now. Believe me, it is a sore spot to -have to say this. But I have to face these facts of what I know. - -Mr. RANKIN. You realize it is a very serious charge. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And it is also a serious charge that my son is -the assassin of President Kennedy. - -You see, we have two sides here. It is a very serious charge, because -no one saw him shoot the President. And yet this is an international -affair. And the conclusion has come to the conclusion that Lee Harvey -Oswald has shot President Kennedy, and he alone. Lee Harvey Oswald, or -Mr. J. Lee Rankin, or anyone in this room could not have been in that -many places in 29 minutes time. It is utterly impossible. - -And this has been gone over by hundreds of people. There are -investigations. I have 1,500 letters, sir--not just letters of -sympathy--people that are investigating this. And I don't read all -thoroughly, and I am a layman. But he step by step has been taken, from -what the reports said--that he was on the sixth floor, and then they -saw him in the cafeteria drinking a Coca Cola, and the President came. -Then he had to leave the building. He had so many blocks to walk before -he caught a bus. He had to board the bus, he had to pay his fare, he -had to get out of the bus, then he walked a few blocks, then he caught -a taxicab, paid the taxi man, then he walked a few blocks, went to his -home and got a coat. Then he walked a few more blocks and shot the -policeman. Then he walked a few more blocks and he was in the theater. - -In 29 minutes time it cannot be done. - -So I am convinced my son, and my son alone, if he is involved--I am a -human being, and I say my son could have shot the President, and he -could have been involved. I am not the type mother to think that he is -perfect and he could not do it. But I say he did not do it alone--if he -did it. Because it is utterly impossible. - -And I do not believe my son did it. - -I think my son was framed because, gentlemen--would his rifle be in the -sixth floor window of the depository--unless you want to say my son was -completely out of his mind. And yet there has been no statement to that -effect. Wade has publicly said on the television when it happened that -he is sane, he is well reasoned, he knows what he did. And Lee never -did break, with his black eyes. He kept saying he was innocent. And yet -in 12 hours time he was proven guilty. That doesn't make sense to me, -an ordinary layman. So I have to consider who is involved. - -Now, I am telling you that this girl was not happy with her situation. -She had turned against me twice. - -You, yourself, yesterday said that she testified that I told her to -tear up the picture. God give me the grace--I did no such thing. My -testimony is true. - -So now she has lied there, I have found out. - -And every evidence of any importance has come from this house. I have -to face that. - -Mr. RANKIN. What else do you have that shows that she had any part in -the conspiracy to assassinate the President? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I am under the impression that probably she--I -think Lee is an agent. I have always thought that, and I have as much -circumstantial evidence that Lee is an agent, that the Dallas police -has that he is a murderer, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. What do you base that on? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well. I am going to tell my story. I have it all there. -That is what I base it on. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us in summary? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I don't think I want to tell it to you that way, -because I cannot, almost. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is a very serious charge, that he was an agent, too. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, fine. So all right. - -If I feel that way, sir, don't I have the right, the American way, to -speak up and to tell you what I feel? Isn't that my privilege? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. But can't you tell us what you base it on? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I will, as I go along, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is that the only way you can tell it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't see how I can say to you I know he is an agent, -and I have papers. I want to tell the whole story. I still have more -papers. I have documents that I know you do not have, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Have you told us all that you know that would bear on your -claim that Marina Oswald was---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. Had a part in it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Had a part in it or conspired to assassinate the President? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--I cannot prove it. And I cannot prove Lee is an -agent. I cannot prove these things. - -But I have facts that may lead up to them. I cannot prove it, because -if I did we would not be having this Commission, sir. I could say who -shot President Kennedy. - -Mr. RANKIN. So in both cases of the agent--Lee being an agent, your -son, and Marina Oswald and the Secret Service agents or anybody else -conspiring with him for the assassination of President Kennedy, that is -just suspicions. You cannot prove it--is that right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I would not use the word suspicion, because I am not the -type person to be suspicious and imagine things. - -You may think so, because I am a woman. And this is my son. But my -children were never tied to my apron strings. - -And I can prove to you, in his defection in 1959, I made the statement -that Lee, as an individual, had the right to think and do what he -wanted to. They even said he was a Communist. If that is what he -studied, and that is what he wanted to do, I accepted that, because -that was his privilege as an individual. And that is public in 1959, my -statement, which shows that I am not the sobbing mother kind because he -has gone to Russia, and cry about it. I acknowledge that. - -I have acknowledged that if the children, like Lee, went to Dallas, -as I testified that yesterday, and didn't tell me he was going to -Dallas--I don't grieve and lose my sleep over that. I have accepted -that fact, because when Lee and Marina got ready to come to me that -would be fine. In the meantime, I still have to live. - -Mr. RANKIN. Are you telling the Commission that your son was part of a -conspiracy to assassinate the President? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I am saying that I realize that my son could possibly be -part--yes--I realize he is a human being and he could possibly be in -this, yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Are you saying he was? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I do not know. I am saying possibly he is involved. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you are saying possibly Marina was involved? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, exactly what I am trying to say. If I had proof, -sir, I would give the proof in an affidavit and this case would be -closed, like Mr. Wade said. - -But I have as much right to my way of thinking as Mr. Wade has. - -Mr. RANKIN. You are saying that possibly the Secret Service agents were -involved, too? You don't have any proof of that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is exactly what I have been trying to say. I -have told you how I was treated, which has given me cause for this -particular way of thinking--because I believe that my son is innocent. -And I think that is the purpose of this Commission, is to hear all -witnesses and arrive at a conclusion. Am I not right, gentlemen? - -So this is my way of thinking. So grant me my way of thinking. If I am -wrong, fine. But you may learn something. - -Mr. RANKIN. What about the high official now. Can you tell us who that -was? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I wish I did know. I have my own idea about that. -I would rather not--because it is a high official--I would rather not -give a name. - -But I have my own very strong suspicions as to the official who he -might be. - -Mr. RANKIN. We would appreciate your telling us within this group what -you think. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Fine--and I expect to, Mr. Rankin. I am a person that is -very outspoken, as you know by now, and I will certainly do that. - -But will you grant me the privilege first of finding out the name of -the man in the State Department that wrote the letter to Senator Tower, -because it is an incorrect--it is incorrect--the whole testimony is -incorrect. - -Mr. RANKIN. We will get that correspondence for you. - -Mrs. OSWALD. All right. I was going to go into something else, but -while we are here, I will continue this. - -And this, to me, will be in this line. And I think very important to -you gentlemen. And you do not have a copy of what I am going to show -you. I am the only person that has this copy. - -I am sorry to take time, but these were not copied, sir. We sealed them -up, and we were going to have them copied this afternoon. But I can -get to this particular one. This is the defection. I have much more -testimony than this. I have testimony, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you think that you can tell us the name of the high -official you spoke about? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I think so. And I am going to tell you. But please do -not ask me at this particular moment. I do not think this is the proper -time for me to--it is just--I have no proof. Understand? As I said, -it is my right to think and my analysis of the papers I have. I have -papers where I can come to a conclusion, just like you gentlemen are -going to have papers and witnesses and come to a conclusion. - -Now, this particular instance---- - -Mr. DULLES. I wonder if we could not possibly explore that agent -matter. I am very much interested in that. I cannot be here tomorrow. -We laid all the groundwork for that. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dulles would like to know her reasons for believing -that he was an agent. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have two very long stories. - -Mr. DULLES. I have to be absent, unfortunately, tomorrow, so I would -like very much to have it. - -Mr. RANKIN. If you could go into that question, Mrs. Oswald, because -Mr. Dulles is not going to be here tomorrow. - -Mrs. OSWALD. We have everything just so, and yet when we come here we -don't have it. The International Rescue Committee is what I am looking -for. - -I have also the original application from the Albert Schweitzer coming -that you gentlemen do not have. - -The CHAIRMAN. Let's stay on one thing, please. - -Mrs. OSWALD. All right. I am a little excited now, because I meant to -go story by story. - -Gentlemen, I have at least four more stories to tell--two I don't think -there are some parts you possibly can know about. - -Mr. RANKIN. Well, if you could tell about why you think your son was an -agent, it will help to get that taken care of this afternoon while Mr. -Dulles can be with us. That is why I asked you that. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. We have a special file. You see, gentlemen, all -morning long I was in the backroom and we were copying things. We had -everything just so. So now I don't know what condition they are in. Mr. -Doyle and I worked on the papers again last night and we had them just -so. And then when they were copied, evidently they were mixed up again. - -Mr. RANKIN. We tried to have you present so that would not happen. Mrs. -Oswald. I guess you didn't accomplish that. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, they did take it into the other room, and we saw -that they took it. - -Well, I can be telling the story about it. - -It is the International Rescue Committee, and a telegram. - -I received a letter from Lee--this is going to be real short, Chief -Justice Warren. It is going to continue this one story. And then I will -go into the defection--is that right--because this will continue that. - -A letter from Lee asking me to go to the Red Cross in Vernon--I was on -a case there--and asking me to show the letter to the lady at the Red -Cross. And this is from Moscow. This is the letter from Moscow. And -telling her that all exit visas and everything had been documented and -he is ready to come home, but he needs help financially to come home. - -Evidently you have that information. That I know, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mrs. OSWALD. So when I entered the Vernon Red Cross--now, this came -with Lee's letter, Chief Justice Warren--the letter you have there -direct from Moscow. That is why I have it, sir--because it was in -Lee's letter asking me to go to the Red Cross in Vernon. So I have the -original from Moscow. - -I told the young lady, showed her the letter and showed her the -paper. And I said, "Would you find out, please, the address of the -International Rescue Committee? My son is in Russia and asked me to -contact you." - -She said, "What is your son doing in Russia?" - -I said, "I don't know." - -"You are his mother and you don't know what he is doing in Russia?" - -I said, "Young lady, I said I do not know what he is doing in Russia." - -"Well, I think anybody goes to Russia doesn't need any help to get -back, they should stay over there." - -So I said, "I am not interested in your personal opinion. I need help. -Would you please contact, give me the address of the International -Rescue Committee so I can continue to try to get money for my son to -come home?" - -She did not know of any address for the International Rescue Committee. - -I asked her if she had a private line to Wichita Falls, which was -approximately 40 miles away, which would be the next big city. She -called Wichita Falls, and they did not know the address of the -international committee. - -So I called Robert and told Robert what I had and asked him to try to -find out the address of the International Rescue Committee. However, he -gave me no satisfaction. - -Now, I sent a telegram--and you know this part of it--to the State -Department, asking--I told them I was in a small town, Vernon, Tex., -and I had received a letter from Lee asking me to get the address and -help from the International Rescue Committee. But being a small town I -had no success--could they help me out? - -So they sent a telegram back with the address of the International -Rescue Committee. That you have. - -And this is Lee's letter--that goes with the other part. - -Now, this young lady was very, very regalish. She didn't want to help -anybody going to Russia. So when I received the telegram from the State -Department, it was on a Saturday. I called her that morning. I was -delayed 4 or 5 days. And to me it was very important, since my son and -daughter-in-law had all documents finished with to get the money to -come home, because I wanted that baby to be born here. - -So I called her at her home and told her that I had the address from -the State Department of the International Rescue Committee, and would -she be so kind enough as to come to the office and write the letter for -me. - -She said, "Well, Mrs. Oswald, I don't have a key." - -This is on a Saturday morning and she is in the courthouse. - -I said, "Do you mean to tell me you are in charge of the Red Cross and -you don't have a key?" - -"No, I don't." - -"Well, young lady, you have delayed me 4 days, and I don't like your -attitude. I am going to ask you especially to make a point to come to -the office and get this in the mail for me. It is very important." - -So, reluctantly, after much persuasion, she came. - -So she wrote the letter to the International Rescue Committee, and -handed it to me, and I mailed that letter--I mailed the letter. - -This is dated January 22, 1962. - -So she called me--her name--Mrs. Harwell. She is the only woman in the -Red Cross office in Vernon, Tex. - -She called me and told me she had received word from the International -Rescue Committee. She read me this letter. So I said to Mrs. Harwell, -"Do you mind if I take the letter, because I am very forgetful?" - -So she took a scissors, gentlemen, and she cut this part out, which was -her title and her address--it was addressed to her. This lady wanted no -part of anybody in Russia--understand? So she cut this out. - -But on the back page was the name. But that is why this space is -here--she cut it out. - -Now, the letter reads: "Since we had a call from the State Department -on Mr. Oswald's case, your communication of January 14th did not come -as a surprise." - -So this young lady has followed up with a letter of her own to the -International Rescue Committee. - -"Since we have had a call from the State Department, your letter does -not come as a surprise." - -I mailed the first letter, and it was just--so she followed up her -feelings about a boy in Russia. - -Now, why does the State Department dicker with me--that is not the -word--and then see fit to put in a personal call to the International -Rescue Committee? - -I would like to know who from the State Department called the -International Rescue Committee. - -There is my information there that I requested. Why is a call necessary? - -Mr. RANKIN. You think that shows there was a conspiracy? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I am wondering and questioning why a call is necessary, -a call, when they had contacted--and I am showing you what I have -here. I don't see any necessity of the State Department to call the -International Rescue Committee. - -And, gentlemen, you have a copy of this--Lee will not be helped. - -I would like to know who called the International Rescue Committee from -the State Department--yes, sir, I would. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes, but you don't think that shows there is a conspiracy? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, no--now. Mr. Rankin, don't pin me down everything I -say to the word conspiracy. I am trying to analyze a whole condensed -program of things that are not correct. I am telling you about this. It -could be just a simple thing, that he called. But I would like to know -who called when it wasn't necessary to make a call, and Lee was not -going to get the money. Read the letter. - -Mr. RANKIN. The reason I ask you about the conspiracy is because that -is such a serious charge. And, as you say, if you could prove that, -that would decide everything around here. - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is right. And I am going to see if I cannot show you -these things. - -Mr. RANKIN. If you are speculating, which you have a right to do, that -is something different. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I have explained that I am speculating, that I have -all these documents, that some of them don't make sense. That is what I -am trying to tell you. I mentioned that before. - -Mr. RANKIN. You are not trying to say to the Commission that you have -the proof that there was a conspiracy? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I have emphatically stated that I do not have the proof, -because if I had the proof I would have an affidavit and give you -gentlemen the proof. I made that clear two or three times. I wish I did -have the proof, sir. - -I think I said yesterday--it doesn't surprise me that there may be -someone in our State Department or some official who would have part in -this. He is a human being just like we are. He may have a title, but -that doesn't make him a man back of the title. - -Mr. DULLES. What is this conspiracy now, Mr. Rankin? Is this the -conspiracy to do away with the President, or is this a different -conspiracy? - -Mr. RANKIN. The conspiracy I was asking about was the conspiracy, she -said, about the assassination of President Kennedy. - -And she said that it involved the two Secret Service agents and her -daughter-in-law and her son. That is the one I was asking about. - -The CHAIRMAN. And Mrs. Paine. - -Mrs. OSWALD. And Mrs. Paine. I feel like the facts have come from this -particular source. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, as I understand she says now that she is speculating -as to that being a possibility. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, now, Mr. Rankin. I have not changed my testimony, -if you are implying that. I may not have put it in a position you -understood. Because as I say, I certainly did not mean to imply that I -had proof, because if I had proof I would not be sitting here taking -all my energy and trying to show you this little by little. I would -have had an affidavit and show you the proof. So if you want to call it -speculation, call it speculation. I don't care what you call it. But I -am not satisfied in my mind that things are according to Hoyle. And I -believe that my son is innocent. And I also realize that my son could -be involved. But I have no way of knowing these things unless I analyze -the papers that I have, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. The Commission would like to know what you base your -assumption that your son was an agent on. Could you help us? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Would you like me to go into this story--I will start with -my son's life from the very beginning. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can't we get down to---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, we cannot. I am sorry. This is my life. I cannot -survive in this world unless I know I have my American way of life and -can start from the very beginning. I have to work into this. I cannot -answer these questions like in a court, yes or no. And I will not -answer yes or no. I want to tell you the story. And that is the only -way you can get a true picture. I am the accused mother of this man, -and I have family and grandchildren, and Marina, my daughter-in-law. -And I am going to do everything I can to try and prove he is innocent. - -Mr. RANKIN. Well, now, Mrs. Oswald, you are not claiming before this -Commission that there was anything back at the beginning, at the early -childhood of your son, in which you thought he was an agent? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--at age 16. - -Mr. RANKIN. Well, why don't you start with age 16, then. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, aren't you gentlemen--I have a letter from you, Mr. -Rankin. Aren't you gentlemen interested in my son's life from the very -beginning? I think you should, because it has been exploited in all the -magazines and papers. And this is not my son is what I am trying to -say. He is not a perfect boy, and I am not a perfect woman. But I can -show a different side of Lee Harvey Oswald, which I hope to do to this -Commission. - -Mr. RANKIN. Well, I plan to ask you about his early life and these -other parts. But I thought it would be helpful if you would be willing -to do it to tell the Commission, while Mr. Dulles is here, what you -base this claim upon that your son was an agent of the Government. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, and I would be happy to do it. - -Mr. RANKIN. If you have to go to when he was 16 years old as the first -point, that will be fine. - -But if you could cover that--then we will go on to the other things. - -Mrs. OSWALD. All right. I have your word that you will let me have -my life story from early childhood and Lee's life story from early -childhood. - -Now, I will start from age 16. Is that satisfactory? - -Mr. RANKIN. Would you do that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you very much. We were in New Orleans, La., at this -particular time. On or about October 5th or 7th--and you have this, -gentlemen, as my proof, that I am telling a true story, and I will have -witnesses that will be called--is a letter---- - -Mr. DULLES. What year, Mrs. Oswald? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I said 1959--I am sorry. 1955. No, wait now. 1956--when we -left New Orleans is 1956. Am I not correct? I am a little excited now, -because of what happened before. The note---- - -Mr. RANKIN. He joined the Marines in 1956. Does that help you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. Wait. We have a note from the Beauregard School -by me that I was going to San Diego. Do you have the note? - -Mr. RANKIN. We do. - -Mrs. OSWALD. May I see that note, please? And that is approximately -October 5th or the 7th, I think it is, 1955. - -Mr. DULLES. I think you moved to Fort Worth with Lee in September 1956. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. So it was in '55. I think that is correct. Let -me see. - -Mr. RANKIN. We are handing you this book that we received from the -State of Louisiana that is Commission's Exhibit No. 365, and turn to -page 11 and you will find the note you referred to. - -Mrs. OSWALD. To the school. All right, gentlemen, this is a surprise. -This is my note, isn't, to the school, that I am moving to San Diego. -And it has been blasted in all the papers how I moved around, and I was -going to San Diego. - -Gentlemen, I had nothing to do with this note, nothing whatsoever. - -Lee, my son, wrote the note--on or about October 5th or the -7th--October 7th. And now comes the story why he wrote the note. - -If you will see here, this is Lee's handwriting, to the letters. - -Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence that note on page 11. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 199, and -received in evidence.) - -Mrs. OSWALD. I had nothing to do with this note. - -Now, I am working at Kreeger's Specialty Shop, 800 and something -Canal Street in New Orleans, La. I received a telephone call from the -principal of the Beauregard School saying. "Mrs. Oswald, I understand -you are going to leave town, and we are awfully sorry to lose Lee." - -Of course now, gentlemen, I am working and this is news to me. - -So I said--I kind of went along with it a little bit. - -Lee came into this shop later on that day. Miss Lillian New, I think -her name was, who is manager of Kreeger's Shop, and has been for -years--she will witness this. - -He said, "Mother, I have quit school." - -Mr. RANKIN. You say when the school authorities asked you, you sort of -went along with it. What do you mean by that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. When the lady called me and said that, "I understand you -are leaving town, Mrs. Oswald." - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you say? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, because there was a switchboard, and my job was in -jeopardy, I don't know the exact words, but I said--I had to be kind of -vague about it and not discuss it. I knew I wasn't leaving town, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell her you were not? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't think I told her. But I had to be very--I -would lose my job if they thought I was leaving town. It was news to me. - -So Lee that afternoon, from school, came into Kreeger's Specialty Shop -where I was working and said, "Mother. I want to join the Marines, and -I have quit school." - -Now, Mr. Kreeger--and he may be leaving--Mr. Frank Kreeger who is owner -of Kreeger's Specialty Shop, and all of the personnel there--this is a -very small shop, and Miss Lillian, who was manager, knows of this. I -became very excited and I started to cry. And they let me go home with -Lee. - -So Lee was determined at age 16--his birthday was going to be October -18th, right--and this was October 7th--was going to join the Marines. -So what Lee wanted me to do was falsify his birth certificate, which I -would not do. And he kept after me, like a boy. - -Now, this is a normal boy, wanting to join the Marines. - -"I don't see why you don't just put that I am 17 years old." - -I said, "Lee. We cannot do that." - -He said, "Everybody else"-- - -I said, "No, I am not going to do it." - -For 2 or 3 days Lee and I bickered back and forth about me falsifying -his age. - -So I have a very good friend, Mr. Clem Sehrt, who is an attorney in -New Orleans, La. I called him and told him I had a personal problem. I -had not seen Mr. Sehrt since early childhood. I knew the family. That -Lee was not of age and he wanted to join the Marines. And he quit the -school and told them we were going out of town. - -He said, "Marguerite, I cannot advise you. It would be unethical. But a -lot of boys join the service at age 16." - -So he could not advise me. - -My sister, Mrs. Charles Murret, 757 French Street, knows of the -complete story. And so does my brother-in-law, Mr. Charles Murret, who -also said, "Let him join, let him go. If he wants to go so badly, let -him join the Marines." - -I, at that time, was living at 126 Exchange Place, which is the Vieux -Carre section of the French Quarter of New Orleans. - -And, by the way, the papers said we lived over a saloon at that -particular address. - -Gentlemen, if you have this information, that is just the French part -of town. It looks like the devil. Of course I didn't have a fabulous -apartment. But very wealthy people and very fine citizens live in that -part of town, and there are hotels and saloons, and courtyards where -the homes are. - -So I was very upset. - -There was a colonel on the street that I stopped--I didn't know him--I -said, "Sir, I would like to talk with you." I told him about the -boy wanting to join the Marines and I didn't know what to do. I was -frantic. And he was insistent that I let him join the Marines at age 16. - -So he advised me, "Well, if he doesn't want to go to school, let him -join the Marines. It is done all the time." - -Now, I was not too happy about this situation. - -Now, a recruiting officer from the Marine Reserve in New Orleans, La., -was in my home the next day when I arrived from work, with Lee, in -uniform, in the home when I got into the home. He introduced me to him -and he said, "Mrs. Oswald"--he didn't tell me what to do. He was very -vague about the thing. - -I said, "No, Lee is too young, age 16, to join the Marines. They are -liable to send him overseas." - -He said, "There is less delinquency in Japan and those places than we -have here." - -He saw nothing wrong with it. - -What he was doing was telling me to falsify his birth certificate, but -not in plain words. He was telling me it would be all right for the boy -to join the Marines. He came to my home personally. - -So I went to an attorney with Lee, because--here is the thing. - -Lee's birth record is in New Orleans. And I knew that the Marine Corps -could easily check on this child, age 16--his birth record. So in order -to have a happy situation, so I could work, and to see Lee, I went to -an attorney and paid $5 and said that I lost Lee's birth certificate, -and kind of motioned to the attorney. I knew it would not stand up. -I bought Lee a duffle bag and everything, and Lee went--we told him -goodby, and Lee was going to join the Marines. - -I had to accept that, gentlemen. There was no other way I could do, but -accept the fact to let him go. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who was that attorney? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Clem Sehrt. - -Mr. BOGGS. What did Mr. Sehrt allegedly tell you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Pardon? - -Mr. BOGGS. What did Mr. Sehrt tell you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Sehrt is a family friend. - -Mr. BOGGS. I know Mr. Sehrt very well. - -Mrs. OSWALD. He said according to attorney ethics that he would not be -able to advise me. Before you came in, sir, I had stated that. - -Now, when I get interrupted, I lose--this is a big thing for me. I am -not making excuses. But, gentlemen, it is awfully hard to do this. - -So Lee came home. And he said the captain said that he was too young. - -Now, I don't question much. I don't know whether Lee changed his mind, -or they sent Lee home. I do not know. I do not question that. - -All right. - -Lee, at age 16, read Robert's Marine manual back and forth. He knew it -by heart. Robert had just gotten out of the Marines, and his manual was -home. And Lee started to read communistic material along with that. - -Mr. RANKIN. What communistic material did he read? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It was a small book that he had gotten out of the library. -And I knew he was reading it, Mr. Rankin. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was it in Marxism, or what was it about? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No--if you are saying the title is Marxism--no, sir, the -title was not. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was it about communism? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It was more about communism. I knew he was reading it. -But if we have this material in the public libraries, then certainly -it is all right for us to read. And I think we should know about these -things, and all of our scholars and educators and high school boys read -subversive material, which we call subversive material. So I, as a -mother, would not take the book away from him. That is fine. Lee is a -reader. I have said from early childhood he liked histories and maps. - -So that is fine. - -What I am saying now--we are getting to this agent part. - -He is with this recruiting officer and he is studying the Marine -manual--he knew it back and forth. In fact, he would take the book and -have me question some of the things. And he was reading communism. - -Lee lived for the time that he would become 17 years old to join the -Marines--that whole year. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did he do during that time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Pardon? - -Mr. RANKIN. What did he do during that year? - -Mrs. OSWALD. What did he do during that year? He was working for--as a -messenger for Tujaque and Son. - -Mr. RANKIN. He had quite a few jobs, did he not? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I can explain that to you. - -His first job was Tujaque and Son, who was steamship people, and he was -a messenger. And then he had a lot of friends. - -Now, they say Lee didn't have friends. There were boys of his -age--while he was working he had an opportunity to make friends, coming -to my home. And one of the young men knew of a better paying job, where -they had coffee breaks and everything, so Lee took that job, which was -with a dental laboratory--if you have that information, sir. - -And I think that is the only two jobs--no, Lee worked after school -for Dolly Shoe Co. I was working there, in charge of the hosiery -department, and Lee worked on Friday afternoon and Saturday as a shoe -salesman. - -That was his first job--while he went to school he worked there. - -And then when he left school, as I told you, at age 16--the first job -was Tujaque and Company, steamship, and then the dental laboratory. -And that is the only jobs he had in New Orleans. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were there not times he didn't have any job during that -year? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir--because when we left New Orleans, Lee left this -dental laboratory job--that is correct. - -So I moved back to Fort Worth, Tex., because Robert did not want to -live in New Orleans. Robert was raised in Texas, and has his girl -friends and all his friends in Texas. So when Robert got out of the -Marines, he wanted to live in Texas. So I know that Lee wants to join -the Marines at age 17, so in the month of July 1956--and, gentlemen, -I have always been broke, and I mean broke. About a week before rent -time, we had it pretty hard in order to have that rent. Yet I take my -furniture and ship it to New Orleans so Lee could be with his brother -and we could be with the family--thinking maybe with Robert he would -not join the Marines at age 17 and finish his schooling. - -When Lee became age 17, October 18th, he joined the Marines. - -The reason why he didn't go into the Marines until October 24th was -the recruiting officer at the Marines could not understand his birth -certificate, because his father had died 2 months before. So I had to -send for an affidavit, even though I had the death notice from the -paper and everything, and they could have--they could not understand -that about that two months. I had to send to New Orleans for an -affidavit of his father's death. - -And so then Lee joined the Marines on October 24th. - -From the 18th to the 24th every day Lee was leaving. We even laughed -about it. Because he would leave in the morning and come home in the -evening. And it was because he was born 2 months before his father--so -he did join the Marines at age 18. - -Now--that, Mr. Dulles, is the part you wanted to know. But, before, -that has something to do with it. Lee---- - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Dulles wanted to know what you based this idea that he -was an agent on? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is one part. That is the beginning of it, Mr. Dulles. -I have much more. That is the beginning of it, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Did he join at 18 or 17? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He joined at age 17. I signed the paper. You will please -forgive me when I make mistakes, and if you will correct me. - -Now, at age 15-1/2 Lee was a member of the Civil Air Patrol. - -Do you have that information, gentlemen? - -I don't think you have. - -Now, just a minute. I am sorry--this morning, when they were copying my -papers. I put this in my bag. - -I have a picture right here--this is Lee at age 15-1/2 in the uniform -of the Civil Air Patrol. This is before the recruiting officer. We are -going back. - -And this is what helped Lee to make up his mind to join the service. - -The CHAIRMAN. Go right ahead, Mrs. Oswald. - -Mrs. OSWALD. At age 15-1/2 or so, Lee joined the Civil Air Patrol. He -went on an airplane, on flights and everything. I got him the uniform, -with Robert's help. This young man--now, I do not know his name. He -is from New Orleans. And I am checking on these things. I have to do -research on all of this, and do it alone. - -This young man and Lee were very friendly. The young man that gave Lee -the idea of--went to Beauregard School with him, and he and Lee joined -the Civil Air Patrol together. That is the way I wish to state this. -And he often came to the house. So there is a close friend of Lee. Lee -is not supposed to have any friends. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he have any girl friends, too? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. Now, neither did Robert or John Edward. No, sir. -Neither of my boys had girl friends until after about age 17. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he have other close friends, boy friends, besides these -that you recall? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I would not say he had--unless during working--he -was working at this time, and I was working during the day. But I mean -at the house this young man came to the house, and several of the -other young men, as I told you before. - -Now, we are at the Civil Air Patrol. - -And that is why Lee went to the Marine Corps, is because of the Civil -Air Patrol. He wasn't in the Civil Air Patrol long. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, up to this point, you haven't told us anything that -caused you to think he was an agent, have you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, maybe, sir, I am not doing a very good job of what I -am saying. - -Mr. RANKIN. What do you think you have said that caused you to think---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. I have said that a Marine recruiting officer came to my -home, and that Lee then continued reading Robert's manual by heart, and -started reading communist literature. He is preparing himself to go -into the Marine service--at age 17--this year before he actually joined -the service. I am saying he is already preparing himself. - -Mr. RANKIN. To become an agent? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I think with the influence of this recruiting officer. - -Mr. RANKIN. You think the recruiting officer inspired him---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, influenced this boy. - -Mr. RANKIN. ----to read the communist literature? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--and Robert's Marine book. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is there anything else you base that on, except what you -have told us? - -Mrs. OSWALD. About him being an agent? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, when I get through the whole story. - -Mr. RANKIN. I mean as far as the recruiting officer. - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. Otherwise than Lee's attitude. Lee read this manual. -He knew it by heart. I even said, "Boy, you are going to be a general, -if you ever get in the Marines." - -Mr. RANKIN. And you base the idea---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. He had the idea. - -Mr. RANKIN. He was being prepared to become an agent, and inspired by -this recruiting officer? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. By what you have told us about his reading the communist -literature and this one pamphlet, and also the manual of the Marine -Corps? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And then living to when he is age 17 to join the -Marines, which I knew, and which he did at age 17 on his birthday. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, what else do you base your idea that he was--ever -became an agent or was going to become an agent on? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Many, many things. We always watched--it is "I Led Three -Lives"--the program--Philbrick. We always watched that. And when Lee -returned from the service and the Marines, the three days--that program -was on, and he turned it off. He said, "Mother, don't watch that, that -is a lot of propaganda." - -It has been stated publicly that the FBI did not know--didn't have -Lee on the subversive list--I am probably not saying this right, -gentlemen--but the rightwing in Dallas. I don't know anything -politically. The FBI and Secret Service had a list of names in Dallas -of people that had to be watched, and Lee Harvey Oswald was not on that -list. That would lead to believe there was some reason he was not on -the list. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who did you get that from? - -Mrs. OSWALD. From the newspapers and all over. And there has been a lot -of comment about this all through. - -Now, I don't say it is correct. But what I have explained to you -before--my way of thinking has to go with this, because I know the boy -and the whole life, and you do not, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Well, I want to try to find out all you know about it. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Fine. And I want you to. - -Also, Lee's letters--and I have them in the hotel--I didn't bring them, -because I thought we were through, and you have the copies--most every -letter from Lee tells me something. - -When Lee is coming back from Russia he says, "I plan to stop over in -Washington a while." - -Lee says in the letter, "Marina's uncle is a major in the Soviet Union." - -"I am an American citizen and I will never take Soviet citizenship." - -If you will read every letter--if you think he is an agent--every -letter is telling his mother--"If something happens to me, Mother, -these are facts." - -I might be elaborating. But I think my son is an agent. And these -things piece by piece are going together, as far as I am concerned. - -Representative FORD. When did you first think he was an agent? - -Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee defected. And I have always said a so-called -defection, for this reason. - -Now, we come to another letter. I am going to have to take some time -now, because we are not going in sequence. The letter Lee wrote to me -from New Orleans is what I need. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you have the letter in which he says he was going to -Washington? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I gave you that copy yesterday. I don't have the -letter with me. They are at the hotel. - -Mr. RANKIN. You gave it to us yesterday? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--that he would stop over in Washington. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the date of that one? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, now, he was supposed to arrive in New York on the -13th of June, 1962. And that is the letter. When he arrived, I do not -know. And I do not know if he went to Washington. - -As I stated yesterday, he went to Robert's house, and I was on a case. -So I don't know when he arrived in New York. - -Now, this is the letter. Lee is out of the Marines, and he stays home -with me 3 days. And I have publicly stated--and this came out of my -book this morning--Lee came home September 14, 1959. He stayed 3 days -with me. Said he would like to travel on a ship working his way. -Possibly export and import. He remarked he could make more money that -way. - -The next page is the letter he sent me, and then came the news of his -being in Russia. - -This is the letter. - -"Dear Mother"----- - -Mr. DULLES. Is that dated? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. This is just dated September. He was released -from the Marine Corps on September 14th--I believe I am correct, Mr. -Rankin. - -And he stayed with me 3 days. - -And then this is--well, the date on the envelope is September 19th. He -stayed with me 3 days. - -"Dear Mother, well, I have booked passage on a ship to Europe. I would -have had to sooner or later, and I think it is best to go now." - -"I would have had to sooner or later, so I think it is best that I go -now. Just remember above all else that my values are very different -from Robert or us, and it is difficult to tell you how I feel. Just -remember this is what I must do. I did not tell you about my plans -because you could hardly be expected to understand. I did not see -Lillian while I was here. I will write you again as soon as I land. -Lee." - -Mr. RANKIN. What do you think he meant by that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is what I want to tell you. All of this speculation, -gentlemen. And that is why I say the Warren Commission--unless they -hear my story and the witnesses involved, cannot arrive at a true -conclusion. - -Now, what would you think about this? - -A few days later you get headlines. "Fort Worth Boy Has Defected to -Russia." And I made the letter public. This letter says to his mother -he is defecting to Russia--right? That is the way you would read the -letter. - -It is easily read this way when you think a boy has defected to Russia. -So you would read the letter that way. - -Mr. DULLES. Mr. Rankin, do we have correspondence while he was in the -Marines? - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, do you recall any letters you received from -your son during the time he was in the Marines? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I have a special delivery letter. You see, -gentlemen, that is why I have tried to explain to you before--if I -could have gone from the story we would not all be so mixed up. This -is a letter from the Marines saying he is going to contact the Red -Cross--when I told him about my illness. - -Mr. RANKIN. Well, that is the correspondence in regard to his getting -out of the Marines because of your need of his help and support. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is right. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, except for that correspondence, you don't have any -other correspondence from him while he was in the Marines? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did have several letters. - -What has happened, Mr. Rankin--when Lee stayed with me the 3 days, he -left his seabag with me. And that is why I have his discharge papers -and things. And then, as you know, when the defection broke, I had no -place to go. So the lady I was working for even threatened to call -the police, because of the defection. I was working for $5 a week, -gentlemen, taking care of her son. But I was happy to have a home and -food, because I had had this accident, and I could rest. But my salary -was $5 for the whole week. But when the news broke, she didn't want to -be involved with anyone who had a son as a defector, so she asked me to -leave. It was a very cold winter night. And I said I would. - -But I didn't want to leave--didn't have any place to go. - -She said, "You will leave now or I will call the police." - -So I called Robert and he told me to come out to his home. - -When I went out to his home, I brought Lee's seabag, Mr. Rankin, with -me. And I stayed there just a short time. And Robert Oswald would not -let me have Lee's seabag. And there were a few letters in there from -Lee in the seabag. - -And so I don't have the seabag. - -You can read this letter, then, this way. That he is telling me he is -defecting to Russia. - -We all agree there. - -Then this same letter could be read the way I read it, as a mother. - -After three days he is leaving his mother. But we had a talk. When Lee -arrived home--and I will go into this thoroughly. I was ashamed when -he arrived home. I was in a one bedroom and bath and a small kitchen. -And my son came in about 2 o'clock in the morning. I have never lived -lavishly, but we have always had a nice clean little moderate house. -And, remember, I was destitute. I had no money. You have the affidavits -evidently from the Red Cross. If you don't, I have copies. - -The first thing I said to him, "Honey, the first thing we will have to -do is to move and find a decent place." - -I had a studio couch, which has two parts. The top part I put on the -floor for my son to sleep on that particular night, in the one room. - -So he said, "We will talk about it in the morning, Mother." - -So morning came. - -I brought the subject up immediately. I said, "The first thing we will -have to do is find a place. I am well enough that I can babysit or pick -up a few dollars. And until I settle my claim, I think we will be able -to manage, and you will get a job." - -He said, "No, Mother, my mind is made up. I have thought this out -thoroughly. I have no background. If I stay here, I will get a job for -about $35 a week, and we will both be in a position that you are in. I -want to board a ship and work in the import and export business, where -there is some real money." - -Mr. RANKIN. He had quite a little money saved, didn't he, from the -Marines? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I will tell you about this--please, gentlemen, I will have -to break if you don't. This is a very, very serious life that I have -gone through. - -I didn't answer Lee. - -This is the way I do the children. - -The CHAIRMAN. We will take a 10 minute recess now. - -(Brief recess.) - -The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Mr. Rankin, you may -continue. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Rankin, you mentioned about the $1,600. Now. I don't -know if you know for a fact that Lee had $1,600. It was publicized in -the paper that he had $1,600, which is right here in 1959. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you anything about that at the time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, he gave me $100. And he and his brother Robert -had arrived. And I am assuming it was over me because Robert did not -help me. And I have made that public in the Red Cross papers, that he -had a family of their own, that they probably thought their duty was -to their family. I had no help from the other two boys. And he gave me -$100, and I stayed in this little place a few weeks, and then I got the -job for $5 a week. And that is Lee's defection. - -So here is my only contact with Lee in Russia, at the Metropole -Hotel--this is dated December 18, 1959. - -Now, I have settled with the insurance company, and I have a little -money. So I sent a check to Lee for $20. And this is his little -note. The only contact I had with Lee from the time of his immediate -defection until the State Department 2 years later informed me of my -son's address. And this is his little note that he needs money. - -So I would say that Lee didn't have $1,600, according to this proof. - -Now, we are speculating, as you will admit, because you thought the -letter to the school was from me. And you will have to admit that I -have given you new evidence. And so maybe Lee didn't have $1,600, -because he is asking for money there. That is when he is right in -Moscow. - -Mr. RANKIN. Of course, that is quite a while later. - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. He defected the end of November. This is December -1959. - -Mr. RANKIN. But he---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. He had to make passage, and have some money. I don't know -if it took $1,600. I do not know, sir. But I am saying 5 weeks later he -needs money. We haven't gotten to this file yet. - -I will quote from a newspaper, the Star Telegram, 1959, his defection, -by Mrs. Aline Mosby, who interviewed Lee in Moscow. It says here, "I -saw my mother always as a worker, always with less than we could use, -he said. He insisted his childhood was happy despite his poverty." - -We had a very happy family. He insisted--this is the story in 1959. Lee -had a normal childhood. - -And now he is criticizing the United States. He says, "Many things -bothered him in the United States. Race discrimination, harsh treatment -of underdog, Communists and hate." Then on the other letter he is going -to Russia to write a book. And there is another story and another -story. And all kind of stories. So what are we to believe, gentlemen. -Is he throwing us off the track because he is an agent. We are talking -about speculation and newspaper papers, and so on. And we know when he -came back that he did go to Mrs. Bates, a Fort Worth stenographer, and -talked about the Soviet Union. She made it public. And he only had $10. -And he did not finish that story. And she said he was very nervous. And -he did not say he was an agent. But she got the impression that he was -an agent. This has been made public in the Star Telegram--if you do not -have that, I do. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, is this the photostatic copy of the letter -about his booking passage? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. You read the original? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. And this material on the bottom is just your own writing? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. This was in this book. That is my writing at the -bottom. - -Mr. RANKIN. The letter I was referring to is Exhibit 200. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it is this letter. - -Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 200. - -The CHAIRMAN. Admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 200 and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, this one starting, "Dear Mother, received your letter, -and so forth"--that is the one about the Marines, when he was asking -you about getting out of the service and your need, and so forth? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is the letter which shows the different character of -the boy that the newspapers are making of him--when I wrote and told -him I had sold my furniture, and that my compensation and medical was -stopped, immediately my son sends a special delivery letter, and that -is the letter "received your letter, was very unhappy. I have contacted -the Red Cross, and they will contact you." This is a nice boy to do -this immediately, when he finds his mother is in trouble. He is not a -louse, like the papers have been making him out. He might have some bad -points, but so do all of us. - -Mr. RANKIN. We will ask the reporter to mark this. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 201 for -identification.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 201 is the letter you are just referring to? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 201. - -The CHAIRMAN. Admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 201 and -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Then, Mrs. Oswald, the other one that you received from -Russia, with the check and the little note from your son Lee is the one -I am showing you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you mark that as Exhibit 202? - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 202 for -identification.) - -Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 202 and ask leave to -substitute a copy. - -The CHAIRMAN. Admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 202 and -received in evidence.) - -Mrs. OSWALD. I have followed up that request and sent the $20 bill in -an envelope. And I have all of this. But I am not going to go through -all this paper. You will have all of this. - -Mr. DULLES. Did that get through--just as a matter of curiosity. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is what I am going to tell you. So I put a $20 -bill immediately in an envelope and sent it to Lee. And then after I -thought about it, I thought of a foreign money order. And gentlemen -I have all this in black and white for you, and this gentleman will -copy and have it--everything I am saying. So then I went to the bank -and I got a foreign money order for $25, and I sent it to Lee. It all -went air mail. But it came back about 2 months later, Mr. Dulles--the -$20 bill I got back in cash and the Chase National Bank foreign money -order, that check came back in cash. I will have that proof for you. I -understand it comes back by boat, and that is why it took so long. - -So I had no way of knowing that my contact with my son was successful. -I didn't know until about 2 months later he had not received my money. -And by that time--well, I didn't know where he was, because I came to -Washington in January of 1961, had a conference with Mr. Boster--Mr. -Stanfield---- - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you think he was a Russian agent at this time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not think he was a Russian agent. - -Representative FORD. I thought you answered in response to a question I -asked, when you thought he was an agent, you said when he defected. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I might have said defected to Russia. No, sir; I never -thought Lee was a Russian agent. - -Representative FORD. I meant an agent of the United States. It is my -recollection that you said when he defected to the Soviet Union, you -then thought he was an American agent. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is right. That is correct. - -Mr. RANKIN. What else caused you to think he was an American agent? - -Mrs. OSWALD. All right. I might be letting things out the way I am -going. And I am very unhappy about this. Had I started with his -childhood I could have worked up to age 15 very peacefully, and you -would have gotten everything. I hope I am not forgetting anything -important. But now we have letters from the State Department. - -Well, my trip to Washington has to come before the letters to the State -Department, sir. So I am in conference with the three men. I showed -them the letter from the--the application from the Albert Schweitzer -College, and Lee's mail had been coming to my home. I didn't know -whether he was living or dead. I did not want to mail these papers. So -I made a personal trip to Washington. - -I arrived at Washington 8 o'clock in the morning. I took a train, and -borrowed money on an insurance policy I have, which I have proof. I had -a bank account of $36, which I drew out and bought a pair of shoes. I -have all that in proof, sir, the date that I left for the train. I was -3 nights and 2 days on the train, or 2 days and 3 nights. Anyhow, I -took a coach and sat up. - -I arrived at the station 8 o'clock in the morning and I called the -White House. A Negro man was on the switchboard, and he said the -offices were not open yet, they did not open until 9 o'clock. He asked -if I would leave my number. I asked to speak to the President. And he -said the offices were not open yet. I said, "Well, I have just arrived -here from Fort Worth, Tex., and I will call back at 9 o'clock." - -So I called back at 9 o'clock. Everybody was just gracious to me over -the phone. Said that President Kennedy was in a conference, and they -would be happy to take any message. I asked to speak to Secretary Rusk, -and they connected me with that office. And his young lady said he was -in a conference, but anything she could do for me. I said, "Yes. I have -come to town about a son of mine who is lost in Russia. I do want to -speak--I would like personally to speak to Secretary Rusk." So she got -off the line a few minutes. Whether she gave him the message or what -I do not know. She came back and said, "Mrs. Oswald, Mr. Rusk"--so -evidently she handed him a note--and Mr. Boster was on the line--"that -you talk to Mr. Boster, who is special officer in charge of Soviet -Union affairs"--if I am correct. And Mr. Boster was on the line. I -told him who I was. He said, "Yes, I am familiar with the case, Mrs. -Oswald." He said, "Will an 11 o'clock appointment be all right with -you?" This is 9 o'clock in the morning. So I said--this is quite an -interesting story--I said, "Mr. Boster that would be fine. But I would -rather not talk with you." I didn't know who Mr. Boster was. I said, -"I would rather talk with Secretary of State Rusk. However, if I am -unsuccessful in talking with him, then I will keep my appointment with -you." - -So I asked Mr. Boster--I said, "Mr. Boster, would you please recommend -a hotel that would be reasonable?" He said, "I don't know how -reasonable, Mrs. Oswald, but I recommend the Washington Hotel. It will -be near the State Department and convenient to you." - -So I went to the Washington Hotel. And as we know, gentlemen, there -were nothing but men. They asked me if I had reservation. I said, "No, -I didn't, but Mr. Boster of the State Department recommended that I -come here." So they fixed me up with a room. I took a bath and dressed. -I went to the appointment--because this is 9:30, I am on the phone, and -I had to take a cab to the hotel. I arrived at Mr. Boster's office at -10:30. - -But before arriving at Mr. Boster's office. I stopped at a telephone in -the corridor, and I called Dean Rusk's office again, because I didn't -want to see Mr. Boster, and I asked to speak to Dean Rusk. And the -young lady said, "Mrs. Oswald, talk to Mr. Boster. At least it is a -start." - -So then I entered around the corridor into Mr. Boster's office. I have -all the pictures of the State Department and everything to prove this -story is true. I told the young lady. "I am Mrs. Oswald. I have an 11 -o'clock appointment." Mr. Boster came out and said, "Mrs. Oswald, I am -awfully glad you came early, because we are going to have a terrible -snow storm, and we have orders to leave early in order to get home." - -So he called Mr. Stanfield--the arrangements had been made--now, the -other man--I don't have that name here for you, Mr. Rankin. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is it Mr. Hickey? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Mr. Hickey. You are correct. - -So then we were in conference. So I showed the papers, like I am -showing here. And I said, "Now, I know you are not going to answer me, -gentlemen, but I am under the impression that my son is an agent." "Do -you mean a Russian agent?" I said, "No, working for our Government, a -U.S. agent. And I want to say this: That if he is, I don't appreciate -it too much, because I am destitute, and just getting over a sickness," -on that order. - -I had the audacity to say that. I had gone through all of this without -medical, without money, without compensation. I am a desperate woman. -So I said that. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did they say to you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. They did not answer that. I even said to them, "No, you -won't tell me." So I didn't expect them to answer that. - -The CHAIRMAN. Did you mean you were seeking money from them? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I didn't think that my son should have gone--in a -foreign country, and me being alone. What I was saying was that I think -my son should be home with me, is really what I implied. - -The CHAIRMAN. Did you tell them that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. In the words that I said before--I didn't come out and -say I want my son home. But I implied that if he was an agent, that I -thought that he needed to be home. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything about believing that your son might -know full well what he was doing in trying to defect to the Soviet -Union, he might like it better there than he did here? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I do not remember saying this. I know what I did say, and -they agreed with me. I said--because I remember this distinctly. I -said, "Now, he has been exploited all through the paper as a defector. -If he is a defector"--because as we stated before, I don't know he is -an agent, sir--and if he is a defector, that is his privilege, as an -individual. - -And they said, "Mrs. Oswald, we want you to know that we feel the same -way about it." That was their answer. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything about possibly he liked the Soviet way -of life better than ours? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I may have. I do not remember, sir. Honestly. I may have -said that. I recall that they agreed with me, and they said, "We want -him also to do what he wants to do." - -So now this is January 2, 1961, is my trip to Washington. Approximately -8 weeks later, on March 22, 1961--which is 8 weeks--I received a letter -from the State Department informing me of my son's address. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that they assured you there was no evidence -he was an agent? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, there was no comment to that effect. - -Mr. RANKIN. And they told you to dismiss any such ideas from your mind? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. You are sure they didn't tell you that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I am positive. I said to them, "Of course, I don't expect -you to answer me." No, sir, there was nothing mentioned about the agent -at all. And in fact, I would think, just as a layman, that the State -Department would not even consider discussing that with me. But I mean -it was not discussed. I am positive of that. - -Mr. RANKIN. If they recorded in a memorandum as of that date that they -did say that to you, that would be incorrect? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is incorrect, emphatically incorrect. That is -incorrect. Because I said, "I don't expect you to tell me. But if he is -an agent," I didn't think it was the thing to do. - -Well, on January 21 was my trip to Washington, 1961. Approximately 8 -weeks later, on March 22, 1961, I received a letter from the State -Department informing me of my son's address, which you probably have, -if you don't, sir, I have the copies. And also stating that my son -wishes to return back to the United States--just 8 weeks after my trip -to Washington. - -Now, you want to know why I think my son is an agent. And I have been -telling you all along. - -Here is a very important thing why my son was an agent. On March 22 -I receive a letter of his address and stating that my son wishes to -return back to the United States. You have that, sir? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mrs. OSWALD. On April 30, 1961, he marries a Russian -girl--approximately 5 weeks later. - -Now, why does a man who wants to come back to the United States, -5 weeks later--here is the proof--April 30, 1961, is the wedding -date--marry a Russian girl? Because I say--and I may be wrong--the U.S. -Embassy has ordered him to marry this Russian girl. And a few weeks -later, May 16, 1961, he is coming home with the Russian girl. And as we -know, he does get out of the Soviet Union with the Russian girl, with -money loaned to him by the U.S. Embassy. I may be wrong, gentlemen, but -two on two in my books makes four. - -I have many more things that can go to this, and that has been -published. I will probably never know whether my son was an agent, -because I do not expect to be told these facts. But isn't it peculiar -that a boy is coming home, and the Embassy informs me of that--I have -all this, Mr. Rankin, and you know I do. You will have the copies. And -then 5 weeks later he marries a Russian girl. And the proof of it is -that he does come home with the Russian girl in a short length of time. -And Lee would have been home 1 year earlier. But because of the lack of -money to come home. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever ask him whether he married the Russian girl -because they ordered him to? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I have never asked Lee any questions of that -kind. The only question I asked Lee was when they were living with me -that 1 month, I said, "Lee, I want to know one thing. Why is it you -came back to the United States when you had a job and you were married -to a Russian girl," and they sent me lovely gifts and photographs and -everything. So they seemed to be well off. - -I have a beautiful scarf--they sent tea, boxes of candy, which the -postage is terrific. He says, "not even Marina knows that." And that -is the only question I have ever asked my son. This may be hard to -believe. But I have explained to you over and over that I think we, as -individuals, have a right to our own life. - -Mr. RANKIN. You saw your daughter-in-law and your son living together -with you, didn't you, for some time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. They lived with me 1 month. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you think they were in love with each other? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, they were definitely in love with each other. Yes, I -think they were in love with each other. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you think at that time it was just because he was an -agent and ordered to marry her that he married her? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. I would say this. This is purely speculation. He knew -Marina, and he loved Marina. They met at a dance. So that was--he had a -girl friend. We are saying if he is an agent--I have to say "if." Then -he tells the Embassy that he is in love with a Russian girl. And so it -is a good idea to bring the Russian girl to the United States. He will -have contacts. - -Now, when I was in Mrs. Paine's home, on the table was a lot of papers -from Lee. The Daily Worker I happen to know about. And many, many -subversive--now, I say if Lee is going to assassinate a President, or -Lee is anything that he is otherwise than an agent, Lee would not have -all these things, he would not have his finger in everything. - -He would not be reading only communism and Marxism, that he would be -a fanatic about that one thing and have a cause to assassinate the -President. - -But that is not the picture of Lee Harvey Oswald. Lee has his hand in -everything. - -Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by everything? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, Cuba--because we know in New Orleans he was arrested -for Fair Play for Cuba. He read the Daily Worker. And the other ones -I don't know. But it was in the paper. There is plenty of subversive -material. - -Mr. RANKIN. What about books? Did he read books much while he was -living with you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he read continuously. He went immediately to the -library upon coming to the United States. He read continuously. All -kinds of books. I tried, when he defected--I went to the library to -find out the kind of literature that Lee read. But they could not -give me that information. They said the only way they could give that -information was when a book was overdue, and was out. But otherwise -they have no record. - -Now, it has been stated in the paper--maybe New Orleans is different, I -don't know, but I know in Fort Worth I could not get the information. -Stated he had books--the assassination of Huey Long and things of that -sort. They must have a different system. Because in Fort Worth, Tex., -they do not have that system. The only way they can tell is if a book -is out. But I know Lee read. And I have stated in 1959 all of this. - -Anyway, from Vincent Peale on down to anything you want to mention. Lee -read continuously. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, was there any time that Marina said anything to you to -lead you to believe that she thought your son, Lee, married her because -he was an agent? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, no, sir. Not at any time at all. - -Mr. RANKIN. You think she loved him? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I believe that Marina loved him in a way. But I believe -that Marina wanted to come to America. I believe that Lee had talked -America to her, and she wanted to come to America. I say this for a lot -of little things that happened--that Marina wanted to come to America. -Maybe she loved him. I am sure she did, anyway. She said that she did. - -Mr. RANKIN. I am not clear about this being ordered to marry her. You -don't mean that your son didn't love her. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I could mean that--if he is an agent, and he has a -girl friend, and it is to the benefit of the country that he marry this -girl friend, and the Embassy helped him get this Russian girl out of -Russia--let's face it, well, whether he loved her or not, he would take -her to America, if that would give him contact with Russians, yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is that what you mean? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I would say that. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you don't think it was because your son loved her, then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know whether my son loved her or not. But I am -telling you why he would do this--in 5-weeks time. Now, you have a -5-week period in here. - -Mr. RANKIN. I understand that. But I think it is a very serious thing -to say about your son, that he would do a thing like that to a girl. - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, it is not a serious thing. I know a little about -the CIA, and so on, the U-2, Powers, and things that have been made -public. They go through any extreme for their country. I do not think -that would be serious for him to marry a Russian girl and bring her -here, so he would have contact. I think that is all part of an agent's -duty. - -Mr. RANKIN. You think your son was capable of doing that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I think my son was an agent. I certainly do. - -Mr. RANKIN. Have you got anything more that caused you to think he was -an agent? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I have things that have been coming out in the paper. -And I am not the only one that thinks my son is an agent. There has -been many, many publications questioning whether Lee was an agent or -not because of circumstances, and so on, and so forth, through the -newspapers. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is newspaper accounts you are talking about now? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. And as I said about the FBI. - -Mr. RANKIN. What about your own knowledge? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, that is why I wanted to go into the story. I -wouldn't have become emotionally upset had I started in sequence. - -I told you about him not wanting me to see that program. And then -the letters. There is so much. About him being an agent--all of his -correspondence with the Embassy in Moscow. I have the letters in -the hotel. One of the letters states that the Russians cannot hold -you--"the Russians cannot hold you. You are an American citizen. You -are not a bona fide Russian resident." We have the letters. You have a -copy of the letter, Mr. Rankin. - -And "if you will show this letter to the Russians, they cannot hold you -in Minsk." - -Mr. RANKIN. They would say that about you if you were over there, or -anyone. - -Mrs. OSWALD. The point I am trying to bring there is Lee has always -been an American citizen--according to all of my papers from the State -Department. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mrs. OSWALD. And they would say that about anyone--all right, I will -grant you that. You are probably right. - -Mr. RANKIN. So that doesn't prove he is an agent, that I can see. - -Now, how do you feel it shows he was an agent? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Because he has the sanction of the American Embassy all -through this affair. - -Mr. RANKIN. They would give that to any of us. - -Mrs. OSWALD. All right--so you are telling me that. But this man is -married to a Russian girl, and does come back within a short time, and -could have come back sooner. It was the lack of money. And that is -another thing. - -The State Department repeatedly kept writing me, and I have the -letters, for the money. I have copies of my letters also. I could not -raise the money. I said I had a '54 Buick car, and all I could get a -loan on was $250. They wrote back and said could you ask some friends, -or do you have any relatives--800 and some odd dollars they needed. And -I went to 12 very prominent people in Vernon, Tex.--one who is a very -respected citizen that they recommended me to go, who has a citizen -award. And I felt very confident maybe he would help me. I told him -that my son, who was a very young man, who was an American citizen, is -trying to get back to the United States, but there is lack of money, -and if he knew of any way possible he could help me. - -He said "You mean he is a defector?" I said, "Possibly so. The paper -has said he was a defector." And he said, "Well, I am sorry, Mrs. -Oswald, but these boys that are in the service and defect, I don't have -any use for." - -And I said, "Do you go to church, sir?" He said, "Yes, I do." And I -said, "Probably you go to church to put your hat on. Because here is a -boy. Let's say he has made a mistake. He has gone to Russia. But let's -say he realizes now he has made a mistake, and he wants to come back. -Are you telling me you won't help him?" - -"That is what I am telling you, Mrs. Oswald. I don't have any use for -anybody." Which Senator Tower said that he would not help Lee--made -it public. These are nice people saying this. I say the ones who are -down and out are the ones that need the help. This boy was a young boy. -Let's say he is not an agent. Let's say he defected to Russia. Yet he -wants to come back. He deserved a helping hand. I went to 12 people. I -did not beg. But I presented my case. And not a one offered to help. - -Mr. RANKIN. Didn't you understand that the State Department had to try -to find out if they could--or you or your son could get the money from -other sources before they could advance the money? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I understand that. I am trying to tell you that -I tried awfully hard, but with no success. - -Mr. RANKIN. So they were just trying to do their duty in that regard, -were they not? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It could be, yes. It could be. - -Mr. RANKIN. You don't think that makes him an agent, just because they -asked you---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think--well, as you say, they would probably help -anyone. And then again, because he is married to a Russian girl, and -because all these documents and everything are handled through the -U.S. Embassy. And because of my trip to Washington--which was red -carpet treatment. Let's say, gentlemen, if a woman gets on the phone at -9 o'clock and has an appointment at 11 o'clock with three big men, that -is wonderful treatment. - -Now, they probably would do that to anybody. I don't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. They might have done that---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. I haven't been that fortunate before. - -Mr. RANKIN. Well, that shouldn't be held against them that they treated -you nicely. - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I have told you, Mr. Rankin, they were most gracious -to me. The Administration was most gracious to me. - -Mr. RANKIN. I don't see why you should think that because they treated -you nicely, that was any sign he was an agent. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, maybe you don't see why. But this is my son. And -this is the way I think, because I happen to know all of the other -things that you don't know--the life and everything. I happen to think -this. And this is my privilege to think this way. And I can almost back -it up with these things. - -This is a stranger to you folks. But this is a boy I have known from a -child. - -Mr. RANKIN. How much money do you think, he received for being an agent? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That I do not know. - -Mr. RANKIN. You have no idea? - -Mrs. OSWALD. But I do know this, and I have stated this. I have -approximately 900 and some odd dollars. And I lost my job. That can be -proven. I was a nurse on the 3 to 11 shift, working in a rest home, for -a very wealthy woman. And it would have been at least a year, a year -and a half case. She is not that bad off. She is just an invalid. She -is going to live quite a while. - -When I returned home from the Six Flags on Thanksgiving Day, the Deputy -Sheriff at Fort Worth, Tex. went to get my pay. And the nurse, the 7 to -3:30 o'clock nurse--I went 3 to 11--and my patient cried and said that -they were awfully sorry, but they could not have me back on the case. -That the woman at the rest home refused to have me. - -Now, I was not working for the rest home. I was doing private duty. But -I understand that this is her place of business, and my presence there -might have been--hurt her money part. But this is our Christian way of -life. The boy was accused of killing the President, with no proof. And -then the mother loses her job. - -Now, that is my position. You asked me the question. But Marina has -$35,000 publicly. What she has, I do not know. - -Now, gentlemen, $35,000 is a lot of money in donation dribs and -drabs--is a very large sum of money. I question where does that money -come from. Yes, some of it could be coming from Lee's back pay. And she -might have more than that. That was the amount made public--$35,000. -And here is a mother without a job. And everybody knows I have no -money. And my contributions are 900 and some odd dollars. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, when you say that money that Marina has might come -from your son's back pay, what do you base that on? Just speculation? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I am basing all of this on speculation. Sir, if I had -proof, I would not be taking my energy and my emotional capacity to -bring all this out--if I had proof he was an agent. - -Mr. RANKIN. When they asked you to contribute some money to help bring -him home from Russia, did it occur to you that if he is an agent the -government could just pay his way? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. But they don't want the public to know he is an -agent. They want me to have all of this. They don't want the public to -know. I am going around to people--you brought up a very good point. I -am going around trying to get money for this boy to come home, so the -public knows. Sure, they could have given him the money to come home. - -Mr. RANKIN. Are you trying to get money now? I don't understand what -you mean by that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think, Mr. Rankin, you asked me the question that if he -was an agent, that the Government would have given him the money to -come home without any trouble. I say just the opposite. That it was a -very good point. If he was an agent, it would make it hard for him to -get the money to come home. - -Remember, I am under the impression he is coming home with this Russian -girl in order to continue his work. So he cannot be given the money -immediately to come home, because his mother might tell the story to -someone. Lee was almost a year coming home for lack of money. So then -they have an excuse to loan him the money. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever learn that he was getting money from the Red -Cross in addition to his pay--that is the Russian or Soviet Red Cross, -when he was over there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. You don't know what he did with that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know anything about that. The Red Cross from here? - -Mr. RANKIN. The Soviet Red Cross. - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I know nothing about that. - -Mr. RANKIN. You didn't know he was supposed to have gotten an amount -equal to the pay he received from his job. He got that from the Red -Cross. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't follow you. I do not know. I don't understand. - -Mr. RANKIN. He got so much a month from his job in the electronics -factory. You understood that. - -Mrs. OSWALD. In Russia? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mrs. OSWALD. He was not in an electronics factory. I thought he was -working in a radio factory. All right, fine. - -Mr. RANKIN. And then he got an equal amount, we understand, from the -Red Cross of the Soviet Union. Did you know that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. Now, explain to me--when you say the Red Cross of -the Soviet Union. Is that our American Red Cross in the Soviet Union, -or this is part of the Russian Red Cross? - -Mr. RANKIN. This is part of the Russian Red Cross. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know that. - -Mr. RANKIN. It is not any part of the American Red Cross. - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I do not know that. - -Mr. RANKIN. Their Red Cross is somewhat different than ours, I -understand, because the Government has so much to do with activity -there that the Red Cross is closely associated with the Government -itself, while in this country, as you know, it is generally supported -by the public. - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I did not know that. - -Now, one other thing pertaining to this. When Marina and Lee returned -from Russia, and they were at my daughter-in-law's home, Robert's home, -and I came in from the job in the country to see them, I said--up until -this time, gentlemen, I thought Russians were peasant-looking people, -like the public. And I said, "Lee, she doesn't look Russian at all. She -looks American." He said, "Of course, mother, that is why I married -her, is because she looks American." In front of my daughter-in-law and -Robert. He bragged that she looked like an American girl. And there is -all little things of that sort. - -As I say, I cannot remember everything in my life, because I am -going--this is way back--in a few hours time, Mr. Rankin. But there is -many, many things that come up. - -Mr. RANKIN. How does that show that he was an agent at that time. I -don't understand that. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't either. But I am telling you the expressions. He -is making a point. And what I was going to make a point--Lee loved his -work, and Lee loved the Marines. Lee loved the Marines, Mr. Rankin. -Even coming back--he was a military man. And that has also been stated -in the paper, that he had a military manner about him. I think District -Attorney Wade remarked something of that order. People have noticed -that. - -Mr. RANKIN. What made you think he loved the Marines? Was there -something he did when he came back? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He loved the Marines because his brother was a -Marine, for one thing. And John Edward--that is his career--14 -years. My brother was in the Navy. His father was a veteran. We are a -servicemen family. And I know Lee loved the Marines. I told you how he -read the manual before he left. And on leaves, coming home, Lee would -brag. He even said when he came home from Japan, "mother, my stay in -Japan, just the trip alone would have cost about $2,000." - -Now, Lee, I know also, was in the Air Force of the Marines, and he went -to Biloxi, Miss., for schooling. Lee has had quite a bit of schooling. -And Lee spoke Russian equivalent to 1 year when he defected to Russia. -I have that on his application from the Albert Schweitzer College. And -Lee spoke and wrote Russian fluently when he went to Russia. So Lee -learns Russian in the Marines. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever talk about reenlisting into the Marines after -he returned? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, when Lee returned he was with me 3 days, and then, -of course, he went over to visit Robert's house. So actually we didn't -talk. I was trying to find a home. And I didn't think he would go. I -was hoping that Lee would not go on the ship and work. I was hoping -he would stay home. We were interrupted before. When he said to me -about, that he wanted to work on a ship in the import and export -business, I started to tell you I agreed with him. And this is how you -have to do--particularly when you are a woman. A father could tell -the man, "You are not going to do this." But I went along with that. -And then the next day I said, "Lee, why don't you stay," and I went -into that--"until I settle my claim, and I can babysit and we can get -along." He said, "No, my mind is made up. If I stay, we will both be in -these circumstances." So on the third day--I knew he wanted to do this, -but I didn't think he was going to do it for a month or two. But on the -third day he came with his suitcase in the room and he said, "Mother, I -am off." So since his mind was made up, I told him goodby. - -Mr. RANKIN. He said nothing about reenlisting in the Marines? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, the three days he was home. That was the conversation, -about him going on a ship. I saw his passport. And his passport was -stamped "import and export" on his passport. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did it say anything about Soviet Russia on it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. What I am saying is that I saw the passport with big -writing "export and import." I think it was blue. I did not read the -passport, because Lee was there, but I happened to see the passport, -"export and import" stamped. - -Whether he had another passport, I do not know. I didn't ask. I am -saying this--and God knows I am telling you the truth. I am just this -type person. It is because of my life. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you know that he spoke Russian at that time, when he -had this passport? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not know. The only time I knew that he -spoke Russian is what came out in the news. But when I really knew was -Lee's application for the Albert Schweitzer College. Shall we go into -that--the application? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Now, the first that I knew--no, I am wrong. It is not the -first I knew. I had received a letter from Lee while in the Marines -before he knew of my trouble, stating that he was accepted by the -Albert Schweitzer College. And that letter was in the sea bag that I -told you about, that I do not have. - -Mr. DULLES. Would you give us the date of that letter? - -Mrs. OSWALD. The other letter would have been--let's see. Lee was told -in July about my trouble. And the other letter I would say would be -about May or June. This is March 22. I received this in care of Lee. -And you see, sir, I have a lot of addresses, because I am now living in -these homes. - -Mr. DULLES. '57 or '58? - -Mrs. OSWALD. 1960. - -Let's see now. Then I heard from the State Department in 1961. - -"Due to a number of circumstances, we found ourselves forced to make a -slight change in the arrival and departure dates of the third term. The -first lecture will be held on Tuesday afternoon 16.00 o'clock, April -19, instead of taking place on the 21st with the arrival day on the -20th. It will mean that the students arrive either on the evening of -Monday, the 18th, or before noon on April 19th. This change, however, -makes it possible to end the term on the weekend of July 2. We hope -that you will still be able to fit this change of dates into your -travel plan. Should it not be possible for you to arrive on the earlier -date we, of course, understand the difficulty. In the latter case, -please drop us a line." - -So that is how I knew that Lee--I opened his mail. I didn't know -whether my son was living or dead, sir. And that is how I knew--I won't -go into all this. He made a deposit. I have all of this for you. - -He made a deposit. And this is my copies to them. - -Now, one thing I have forgotten. - -While at the State Department, the State Department told me that Lee -had gone to Finland before Russia. And I did not know that. - -Now, Lee had applied at a college in Finland, evidently, because on the -application it states such a fact. I did not know, because the paper -just said he arrived in Russia--until I went to the State Department. - -So what I am trying to say--I may be forgetting a lot of important -things, because I am just now remembering what the State Department -told me. - -I don't think I am forgetting too much. - -But, after all, I am going through a whole life, and it is very hard. - -This is Lee's original application, that you cannot possibly have had. -This is the only application there is. So this is something new for -you gentlemen. I am not going to go through it all, because you have a -copy. But I am going to show you the thinking of this young man. - -"Special interests: Religious, vocational, literary, sports, and -hobbies. Philosophy, psychology, ideology, football, baseball, tennis, -stamp collecting"--Lee had a stamp collecting book. "Nature of private -reading: Jack London, Darwin, Norman Vincent Peale, scientific books, -philosophy, and so on." - -Representative FORD. That is an application to where? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is an original application for the Albert Schweitzer -School. - -"Active part taken in organizations. Student body movement in school -for control of juvenile delinquency, member YMcA, and AYA association." - -I don't know what that is. - -Mr. RANKIN. Where did you get this copy? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I had contacted Congressman Jim Wright, that has helped -me--helped me to locate Lee through the State Department. But Mr. Jim -Wright was not successful. - -I was successful because of my trip to Washington, as you know. - -And from the trip to Washington, I went to the building where Mr. Jim -Wright worked, and I went in to tell the secretary about the trip to -Washington. And that I had heard from Lee. - -Well, I had information here that Lee had paid a deposit. So I had -written the school and asked if we were entitled to the return of the -deposit, since he didn't show up. But I did not get an answer. - -So Mr. Wright's secretary said that, "Mrs. Oswald, I will write and see -what we can do." - -So she wrote, and then they sent the application and everything back to -Jim Wright's office. And that is how I got the application. - -Mr. DOYLE. They may be interested in knowing where the college is. - -Mrs. OSWALD. It is in Switzerland. Albert Schweitzer College, Chur -Walden, Graubuenen, Switzerland. "Application Form. High School. -Completed high school by correspondence." - -I have that. His original correspondence in the service--completed high -school. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is that part of his Marine work--he finished high school -that way? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -"January '58, Passing 65 on scale of 100 B plus. College: None." - -And then I read his books. - -Now, we go down to here. - -"Vocational Interests if decided upon: To be a short story writer on -contemporary American life." - -Now, "General statement regarding reasons for wishing to attend the -Albert Schweitzer College: In order to acquire a fuller understanding -of that subject which interests me most, philosophy, to meet with -Europeans who can broaden my scope of understanding, to receive formal -education by institutes of high standing and character, to broaden my -knowledge of German, and to live in a healthy climate and good moral -atmosphere." - -This is very good thinking, gentlemen. We are getting a picture now of -the boy which has been not told in the paper. - -I have read this one particular statement at three press conferences. -The first press conference was about 80 members there, from foreign -lands and everything. Nothing was printed. Then I had a second press -conference with 16 men and I said, "Now, I am tired of the things that -are being said about my family, myself, and Lee. We are not perfect. -But I know there is some good things. And I have read a particular -statement that has not been printed. Let's see if one of you has the -courage to print it." - -There was 16 there. That did not come out. I had a third conference, -and I said the same thing and quoted this. That was not made public in -the paper. - -I hold a lot of these answers, gentlemen, as you know by now. - -Mr. RANKIN. You notice the next paragraph, about his plans? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, "Plans to be pursued after the period at Albert -Schweitzer College: To attend the short summer course of the University -of Turku, Turku, Finland." - -Now, I have a brochure. This I cannot understand--from this college, -dated 1960. I have this for you, Mr. Rankin--dated 1960. - -Lee is in Russia. - -And the men in the State Department told me he went to Finland before -Russia. But this is dated 1960. I have it for you. - -But I don't understand that. - -"Then to return to America and pursue my chosen vocation." - -Mr. RANKIN. I want to ask you about that. Do you think he meant this at -the time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know. I am saying--and I am going to stick to my -story--that Lee is an agent, then a lot of this is a lot of baloney. I -cannot make it any stronger. I don't know, sir. The boy is gone, and I -didn't hear from his own lips. - -Mr. RANKIN. You think that he decided to defect after this application, -then? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know, sir, because I have not had this from the -boy. I am speculating. But I have a lot of documents to sustain my -speculation. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, this, you cannot tell one way or another about whether -he is an agent by this. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I cannot tell by anything he is an agent, if you want -proof. I am becoming a little discouraged about this, because I keep -telling you--I did not have proof, sir. But I am giving you documents -leading to it. - -Mr. RANKIN. All I am trying to find out is what you have. You are -giving us that. I am also trying to find out whatever proof you have -about these various things that we can rely on. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I am going to state once and for all, because it -upsets me very much emotionally. And I have stated before, I do not -have proof, sir. I do not have proof of an agent. I do not have proof -my son is innocent. I do not have proof. - -Mr. RANKIN. You don't have any proof of a conspiracy? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Of anything. It is just as I feel, like the Dallas police -do not have proof my son shot President Kennedy. If they have anything, -it is circumstantial evidence. I have as much circumstantial evidence -here that Lee was an agent as the Dallas police have that he shot -President Kennedy. - -"Familiarity with foreign languages, if any. Russian equal in fluency -to about 1 year's education or schooling. I also speak a very little -German. General condition of health: Good. Have you ever had any -serious illness or nervous disturbances: No." - -Mr. RANKIN. Is that correct? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. - -I want to get to that psychiatric. There will be a story there. - -"Does such a condition still exist: No." - -I don't understand this--do you? - -"General condition of health: Good. Have you had a serious illness or -nervous disturbance, no. If so, explain." - -Then he has a dash. - -"Are you at present receiving medical or psychiatric care? No." - -And then he gives as references--you have this, so I won't go into it. - -A chaplain--would you like me to go into all these names for the record? - -Mr. RANKIN. No, we can offer this. - -Did you know any of those people that he showed as references? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I do not. And that is dated the 3d, 4th, '59. And -this is another application form from the Albert Schweitzer College. - -"I hereby apply to attend the student course from April 12, 1960 to -June 27, 1960. Surname: Oswald. Christian name: Lee Harvey. Mr. Age, -20. Mother tongue: English. Other language you know: Russian. Equal -in fluency to 1 year of schooling. Occupation: Student. Nationality: -American. Exact address: McAF, MACS-9, Santa Ana, California, USA. -Remarks: Please inform me of the amount of the deposit if required so -I can forward it and confirm my reservation and show my sincerity of -purpose. Thank you. Lee Harvey Oswald." - -Well, he did, and I have this here, make a deposit of $25, which the -school informed me that they would not be able to refund, because -it would take care of any incidentals that had occurred for him not -appearing. - -Gentlemen, it is 10 minutes to five, I believe I had a full day. I -worked last night on the papers. I came early to have copies made. - -This was a complete story, I believe, and I have at least three other -complete stories. And I have a story of my life that I believe from -newspaper accounts that you will be very surprised also to know the -type person I am. But according to the newspaper--of course, really -nothing bad has been said about me, otherwise than one particular -instance. That I can prove and have witnesses that it is not the case. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, you said you had three more stories. Just -name them. Name what stories they are, so we will know what they are. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -It would be Lee's life, sir, from early childhood, and the psychiatric -treatment in New York, that I want to tell you about. - -The CHAIRMAN. Up to 16? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, because we have finished that, because we went -into that. - -And then my life, from early childhood, which you have asked, Mr. -Rankin, in a letter. - -The third was Lee as an agent, which I have gone into. - -The CHAIRMAN. Lee what? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Lee being an agent. - -But I have really gone into that. - -The CHAIRMAN. So really, there are only two more? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, my life and Lee's life. - -Now, I would like you to have this picture--if you have not seen it. -And I will not comment on it. I want you to study it thoroughly, use a -magnifying glass, if possible, and if you care to, we will discuss it. - -Now, this is out of the Post Magazine. - -There is another picture that I would like the Commission to get which, -is in the Memorial Issue of President Kennedy--I think it is the Post. -I will get that information for you. - -Mr. DOYLE. Would you like to advise the Commission generally what you -believe they will find out from this? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I would rather not comment on that at this particular -moment. I submit it to them for them to look over all the people, to -study it. I have two. You may have that one for the record. - -Mr. DULLES. What does this purport to be of? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is a picture of the book depository the day of the -assassination of President Kennedy. And there are people in the picture. - -The CHAIRMAN. Well, is there anything you want us to see in the picture? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I would rather you see it yourself. I see what I see. - -The CHAIRMAN. What do you see? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, all right. - -I see Marina and the child--the girl and the baby, it could be Marina. - -The CHAIRMAN. Will you show us, please? - -Mrs. OSWALD. And, again, I am saying--I cannot be sure this is the -picture. But this right here. This girl with this baby could possibly -be Marina and June. - -Mr. RANKIN. And that is the girl---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. This girl holding the baby. - -Mr. RANKIN. Right next to the door? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, right next to the door. In back of her is the -hat of a man. I have started this. I will continue. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 203, for -identification.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, may I offer this? - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 203. - -And that is the photograph that you were just referring to, Mrs. Oswald? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is the photograph the day of the -assassination. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you pointed out the girl on the left column---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. Of the entrance to the book depository, holding a child. - -(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission -Exhibit No. 203 was received in evidence.) - -Mr. DULLES. Do we know the time this was taken? - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell about the time this was taken? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. This, I understand, was when President Kennedy was -shot. He is supposed to be holding his throat here. And this is the -car. This is right after he passed the book depository, when he is -supposed to have been shot. - -The CHAIRMAN. Very well. We will adjourn until tomorrow at 10 o'clock. - -(Whereupon, at 4:55 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -_Wednesday, February 12, 1964_ - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD RESUMED - -The President's Commission met at 10 a.m. on February 12, 1964, at 200 -Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. - -Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Hale -Boggs and Representative Gerald R. Ford, members. - -Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, -assistant counsel; and John F. Doyle, attorney for Mrs. Marguerite -Oswald. - - -The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. - -We will proceed to the hearing. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, did you have anything you wanted to say to -us this morning before we start the questioning? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I meant to yesterday morning. I have two or three -things that are worrying me. - -Mr. Rankin, on Monday, when I testified that I had not been questioned -officially, you told me that I had. And if I remember correctly, sir, -you said that there was 28 pages of testimony, or was it 8 pages? - -Mr. RANKIN. Twenty-eight, I think. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, Mr. Doyle, as my attorney--I am very concerned -about that, because I want to know--if it is my testimony--because the -little while--the testimony that I gave to the FBI when I entered the -courthouse was approximately about 10 minutes. They immediately left to -investigate. They did not talk to me again, sir. - -And then the only other testimony that I gave on tape was the -starting of Lee's defection at the Six Flags Inn, which I would say -ran approximately 10 or 15 minutes. And that is the only time I have -testified. - -Now, if you have all this other testimony from me, I don't think it is -fair, because I should know what I am supposed to have said. I need to -know what I am supposed to have said. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, whatever we have that we are told you have -said, you and your attorney are entitled to see, and I will see that -you can. We won't delay the proceeding this morning. But you may see it -before you leave the building. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--it is very important to know that. - -Thank you, Justice Warren. - -The CHAIRMAN. All right. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, on that point, will it be satisfactory if we -furnish a clean photostatic copy to Mr. Doyle? - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes, that will be satisfactory. You may do that, yes. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I certainly need to know what I am supposed to have said. - -There is an FBI agent by the name of Mr. John Fain. I will ask you, Mr. -Rankin, if you have his address, or do you know about Mr. John Fain? - -Mr. RANKIN. I know of Mr. John Fain as one of the agents that had some -interviews with your son. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Now, Mr. John Fain is the agent that I called upon -myself after Lee's defection. I read where the Secret Service were -investigating the family background, and I mistook it for the FBI. -So I called the FBI and he came to my home. And he is the agent who -recommended me to talk to Jim Wright and Sam Rayburn as a friend, and -to write the letters. - -Now, the one point I am going to bring out is this. When Lee returned -from Russia and was at Robert's home, Mr. Fain--in the meantime he -had come over to Robert and talked to him several times, and to me, -supposedly as a friend--he said he was not on the case. I do not know -this. But he came to Robert's home and said to Lee--my daughter-in-law -is a witness there--"Lee, I am not on the case, but I would like you -voluntarily to come to the office at your convenience and tell me -your story, because I am interested in your case. Your mother was the -one who contacted me. And I have been to see Robert. And I am quite -interested in a young boy going to Russia. And you must have a story." - -So Lee voluntarily went with Mr. Fain to the FBI office. - -Then when Lee returned, his remark was "Well, he didn't believe me. He -wanted me to take a lie detector test, which I refused." - -Now, Mr. John Fain may have the story we are looking for, you -see--because Lee went and gave the story. - -And I want to make sure you know where he is now. - -I have information from Senator Mike Monroney that in March--I am ahead -of my story. - -The FBI agents now in Fort Worth have told me they do not know Mr. John -Fain. I said I happen to know that is his name. - -"Well, Mrs. Oswald, I worked in this office 9 years, and there has -never been such a person as Mr. John Fain." - -So I have investigated. And Senator Mike Monroney gave this -information. He did work in the Fort Worth office from March 1949 to -October 1962, and then he retired in January 15, 1963. He is not a man -to retire as far as age, as far as I am concerned. I don't think Mr. -John Fain is that old. - -The CHAIRMAN. We will check that out. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I have his last address in Houston, if you don't have it. - -All right. Fine. - -Now, one thing about Lee being an agent I read. - -The neighbors that were interviewed in Fort Worth, Tex., by the -FBI--this is from newspaper accounts--said that Lee always walked a few -feet in front of his wife when they went walking, and they wondered -about that, because it was very strange that he should walk ahead. I -am speculating maybe, but maybe there is a reason that Lee would walk -ahead to protect his wife. - -That is my reasoning--as an agent. - -The letter that is missing--and Mr. Doyle can verify this--the first -letter to Lee is missing, that Lee wrote to me, rather, from Russia. -And this letter stated--and it seemed to me, Mr. Rankin, I have seen it -in one of the magazines--as I have stated I have sold several of Lee's -letters. And maybe in the rush the letter got lost or stolen, I don't -know. - -But his first letter, he told me not to send him any money. - -"I repeat, do not send any money as it is not necessary for you to pay -me back. You could send reading matter. I am lonesome to read. Also, -send a can of Rise Shaving Cream, a Gillette Razor," and there was a -book he wanted to read, I believe it was 1984. - -Mr. RANKIN. What date was this you sent that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is a letter Lee sent to me that is missing--the first -letter that Lee sent to me. And why I sent the money--because I had -used his income tax return, which was $33, because Lee was lost--and -I was destitute, and I knew Lee would never prosecute his mother for -using his money, because Lee would help me. - -Mr. RANKIN. You mean that was a refund. - -Mrs. OSWALD. A refund. And I got the refund and used it, sir. And I -also used Lee's first check that came from the Marines. And I had no -way of knowing where Lee was. And I used it. And so I offered to pay -Lee back. And this letter has been printed. I have seen it. But I do -not have it. So that is very important. - -Mr. DOYLE. As you had mentioned, you and I went through the papers that -you had brought with you from your home in Texas to Washington, and we -did not find such a letter among those papers. - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is right. I have those letters laminated, and I -didn't give a list, and if it was taken I don't know what became of the -letter. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Liebeler said he had seen references to the letter. - -Mrs. OSWALD. References. And I am sure it was probably one of the -letters I had sold, as I told you. - -Yes, sir, you are correct there. - -Now, there is another thing that we have skipped. - -While in Dallas 2 weeks ago I had a press conference, and I called -Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall Inc., 522 Browder, in Dallas. - -Now, this is a printing shop, where Lee worked. - -Now, this is another thing. - -Mr. RANKIN. That was the photoengraving place that you talked about, -wasn't it, in your testimony? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Photoengraving place. I talked to Mr. Stovall. Now, Lee -was employed there, he informs me, from October 12th to April 6th, and -I asked him about the young couple coming to the house, if he was the -father of the girl, or if he knew of a couple who had a Russian--the -girl had a Russian father, the grandfather, as I testified. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, he said, no. And he didn't know about that. He -said--this is the part--that Lee had worked at a place prior to his -place. That is not so, and I can prove it. I was on an OB case for -Mrs. Rosenthal. We will have to get a 1962 calendar. October 12th, or -thereabouts, is when I was released from this OB case. And this was the -Sunday that I asked to get off an hour or two, and went to Lee's house, -and saw this couple. - -Mr. RANKIN. October 12th was a Friday. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Was a Friday. All right. - -Now, so, let's see where I am. - -This woman would not give me the information, of her last check to me. -I tried and tried, and told her how important it was. It was a Friday. -So then it would have to be, then, Mr. Rankin, the week before--the -Sunday of the week before then. - -Mr. RANKIN. That would be October 7, 1962. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I am still going to try to investigate this thoroughly, -because it is very important. - -He claimed that Lee worked another place first. - -Now, do you know if Lee---- - -The CHAIRMAN. Let's don't--we will go into those things. - -Mrs. OSWALD. But if you don't know, Chief Justice Warren, how will you -go into it? - -The CHAIRMAN. Please don't turn this into examining the Commission. We -will go into those things very thoroughly. - -Just go ahead with your story. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, this is a lie, and I want to know about this lie. - -The CHAIRMAN. All right, you have told us. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I have not finished, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Well, you may go ahead and tell what you want. But don't -question the Commission. That is the only thing I am asking you. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I don't know about questioning. - -Mr. DOYLE. I think if you compose yourself, if you would, and just go -ahead and give the Commission all the information you have. - -Mrs. OSWALD.. Well, that is what I think I am doing. If I am doing it a -wrong way, you will have to understand. I am a layman. I am the mother -of this accused boy. I understand that is what the Commission is for, -to get all information possible to come to a conclusion. - -And if I have found out that my date of employment is the date that Lee -was employed in Dallas, and this man said he worked some place before, -I think that is very important information. - -The CHAIRMAN. We will check on that. - -Go right ahead with your own story. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Maybe I should apologize for taking up so much of the -Commission's time, sir. - -Mr. DOYLE. Go right ahead with the business, and when you give the -Commission the facts, then the Commission will take on from there in -their own judgment. - -Mr. RANKIN.. Mr. Doyle, while she is taking a moment, I will hand you -a photostatic copy of this tape recording of an interview with Mrs. -Marguerite Oswald--it purports to be that--recorded on November 25, -1963, an interview by J. M. Howard. - -Mr. DOYLE.. Thank you. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Now, one thing we have not covered was Lee's discharge. - -The CHAIRMAN. May I interrupt just a minute? - -Is that the document we were talking about just a little while ago, a -copy of which was to be given to Mrs. Oswald? - -Mr. RANKIN. That is right, that is the one requested. - -The CHAIRMAN. And the one you were speaking of---- - -Mr. RANKIN. As a 28-page document. - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes--all right. - -Now, you may continue, Mrs. Oswald. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you very much. - -This is Lee's questionable, dishonorable discharge, where I come in. - -The first envelope was addressed to Lee Harvey Oswald, airmail. And Lee -was in Russia, as we know. We have the proof. And you have all of the -copies of this, I am sure. - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes. - -Mrs. OSWALD. And this you do not have. You have a copy now, but you do -not have the story, Mr. Rankin. - -It states that the discharge by reason of unfitness, recommendation for -discharge, reason of unfitness. - -Well. I wrote to the U.S. Marine Corps--now, where is the copy of my -letter? - -I talked to a commandant at the Marine Corps and read this to him. And -he advised me how to write to the Marine Corps, the official of the -Marine Corps. And that is a copy of the letter. - -I asked--well, he will get me the letter, I am sure. - -So then I will read the answer to my letter. - -Is that satisfactory? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. Mr. Liebeler is going to get the copy that he has. - -Now, can you tell the Commission when you first learned about this -matter? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It would be on the envelope, sir. The envelope is mailed, -Glenview, April 29, Illinois. But, as you see, it had gone to a lot of -addresses, because I had moved around quite a bit. So we would have to -say I got it some time later than the original. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, does this involve the question of the undesirable -discharge? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does. - -Mr. RANKIN. And did you ever write to Secretary Connally about that, -later Governor Connally? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I never did write to him. - -Mr. RANKIN. All right. Will you tell us what happened? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I wrote a letter, and was told how to write the letter. - -And this is the answer to the letter. - -I won't read it all, because you have a copy. But I have a few points -to make here. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall who told you that--the name of the man? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It was the Marine Base in Fort Worth, Tex., one of the -captains there. - -Mr. RANKIN. Thank you. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Told me who to write to. - -Mr. RANKIN. You don't remember the name? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. RANKIN. All right. - -Mrs. OSWALD. The letter to Commandant, Marine Air Reserve, 50 JTMGR, -26 April 1962, "to your son was prompted by his request for Soviet -citizenship. An investigation concerning this matter has been conducted -by military authorities and the case will be placed before a board of -officers which will recommend that your son be retained in or separated -from the U.S. Marine Corps Reserve. Your son, of course, has the right -to appear in person or to present any facts or evidence which would -assist the board in reaching its decision. The letter of 26 April 1960 -informed him of his rights. In view of the fact that he has not been -informed--that he has not informed this headquarters of his current -address, and that he has left the United States without permission, -it is considered that a letter sent to the last address on file at -this headquarters is sufficient notification. A letter will be sent by -certified mail informing your son of a convening date of the board. -Should you be aware of any facts or information which would assist the -board in evaluating your son's case, it is suggested that you forward -them to this headquarters. It is regretted that action of this nature -must be taken in your son's case. M. G. Letscher, First Lieutenant, -United States Marine Corps, Administrative Office, Aviation Class 3, -Reserve Section." - -Now, my letter is important. - -Now, this was addressed to me. This is what I want the Commission to -know. This was addressed to Lee, the original. Then I wrote in behalf -of my son, and this was addressed to me. - -Then I received a letter addressed to Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald. - -By now, I am corresponding with these people, and I ask for--I need my -letter. And I ask for the reason for the dishonorable discharge, and -said that I would act in behalf of my son, because I have pertinent -information to that fact. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I will ask the reporter to mark this as the -next number. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 204, for -identification.) - -Mr. RANKIN. This is correspondence with regard to the dishonorable -discharge. - -Mrs. Oswald, will you look at a photostatic copy of that correspondence? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is the letter I just read. That is the back of -the envelope. And this letter. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is a very poor copy. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Is this the letter we taped? - -Mr. LIEBELER. I don't believe so, no. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I know we taped one, because we could not copy it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you read it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. "I desire to inform"---- - -Mr. RANKIN. That is your letter of April 10, 1960? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And who did you send it to? - -Mr. LIEBELER. May I say this, Mr. Rankin: We did tape that, and I do -have a transcription of it here. - -Mrs. OSWALD. "I ask for a stay of action, and I will be willing to act -in his behalf." - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald. I will hand you what I am asking the reporter -to mark as Exhibit 205. - -I ask you if Exhibit 205 is a correct transcription of your letter. - -MRS. OSWALD. Yes. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 205, for -identification.) - -Mrs. OSWALD. "I am writing you on behalf of my son. He is out of the -country at present, and since I have no contact with him I wish to -request a stay of action concerning his discharge. Also, I desire to -be informed of the charges against him. Please state reasons for such -discharge. After hearing from you, I will be willing to act in his -behalf." - -So then comes a registered return receipt, addressed only to Mr. Lee -Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, will you examine the rest of Exhibit 204 and state -whether that is the rest of the correspondence in regard to the matter -that you know about? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is addressed to me--this envelope is addressed to me, -that is right, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. And those photostatic copies in Exhibit 204 are all copies -of your papers that you furnished to us, so we could make them, is that -right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. - -Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibits 204 and 205. - -The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted, with those numbers. - -(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission -Exhibits Nos. 204 and 205 were received in evidence.) - -Mrs. OSWALD. I believe, Chief Justice Warren, I am giving information -that this Commission did not have before. I do not think they had this -return addressee, which is important, because after corresponding with -me, as Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, they sent the dishonorable discharge in -Lee's name, addressee only, when they knew he was out of the country. - -I would like to know why. - -That is another reason why I think that Lee was probably an agent. - -Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by that, Mrs. Oswald? Could you explain -that a little more? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I do not think they wanted me to have the -dishonorable discharge. - -Again, they wanted me to be upset and tell people about it, but not -have the proof of the dishonorable discharge. - -Mr. RANKIN. Don't you think it is possible that they felt he was the -one involved, and, therefore, they had to get the word directly to him -for legal reasons? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, because, legally--I am glad you brought up the -point, Mr. Rankin. - -Your copies state that anyone can act in your behalf. And I wrote, as I -read the copy, that I would be willing to act in my son's behalf, and I -was making arrangements to get money and go there and act in his behalf -because I had pertinent information. And they ignored my letter and -sent this--yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. They may have felt you had not been given authority to act. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, what they may feel and what they should do--I am -saying I am an American citizen, and I have some rights. And when I -want to act in behalf of my son, we don't know whether he is living or -dead, then I should act in behalf, I should not get a return. - -I am glad you are bringing these points up. My rights have been invaded -and my son's. - -I make that statement for the record. - -Now, we shall go to Lee's childhood. - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Now, Chief Justice Warren, I have pictures of my son -that Mr. Jenner would like this Commission to have, because it shows -Lee at age 15 and 16, and myself, which was supposed to be a life of -psychiatric treatment. And I am more than happy--I volunteered to help -my country in every way possible--to let the Commission have everything -that I have. But you must understand that these are very valuable -pictures, sir. I am having people wanting rights to a book, and these -pictures are very, very valuable to me. And I would not want any of -these pictures lost. Financially they are valuable, and to my story, -sir. And they are the only pictures in existence. - -I have sold a few pictures in order to live. - -But the way I have done it--the photographer had this picture in -particular--have come to my home and copied the pictures and gave it to -me back in my hand. I cannot afford to have any of these pictures lost, -sir. It is my story that some day I hope to write. - -So I was told that if I continue with the life history of Lee as a -child and show the pictures, then they would have to be admitted for -the record. - -Am I correct, sir? - -The CHAIRMAN. That is our way of proceeding, yes. - -Mrs. OSWALD. So now when I show the pictures, will you personally give -me assurance that these pictures will in no way be used? - -The CHAIRMAN. No, I cannot do that. The Commission cannot do it. If you -have something that you consider your personal property, that you do -not want to give to the Commission, you may withhold it. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I did not say, sir, I did not want to give it to the -Commission. - -The CHAIRMAN. Just a minute. I do not believe they bear directly on the -matter we are investigating. They might be helpful. They might not be -helpful. But you may have the choice of determining whether you want to -introduce them or not. - -But if you do introduce them, the Commission cannot put any limitation -upon the use that it might make of them. - -Now, I don't mean by that that we are going to necessarily distribute -them or anything of that kind. But the Commission cannot limit itself -in the reception of its evidence. It must have the power to do with it -whatever is necessary to develop the facts. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I give you that power. And I voluntarily would like -for you to have everything I have, including pictures. But I just -wanted assurance that these pictures would not be exploited in any -way. For some reason or other--I am not putting it into words--but -these are my personal pictures. And I want the Commission to have them. -And it is pertinent to the story, I understand, Mr. Doyle, is that -correct--because it shows Lee smiling, and his life and my life in New -Orleans, which, I understand that the Commission is very interested in. - -Am I not correct, Mr. Doyle? - -Mr. DOYLE. Mrs. Oswald, as the situation has developed here, the -introduction of the pictures into evidence, of course, must necessarily -involve their physical copying, and the retention of the copies in -the file. The Commission itself has stated that it can give you no -assurance whatsoever concerning the use of these papers. - -I would, myself, be of the view that the pictures introduced into -the record here would be certainly used for the purposes of the -investigation and the purposes of the Commission as established by the -Executive order. - -But they can give you no blanket--or have not chosen to give you any -blanket assurance of the use of the pictures, and have given you -completely the choice that if you have any concern about it whatsoever, -that you retain the pictures yourself. - -The choice they have given you is if you wish to have--to present -the pictures to the Commission in the course of your testimony, they -will be glad to receive them, they will--there will be copies made -of them, the originals, of course, will remain in your custody. Their -purposes will be--their use will be the uses of the Commission. But -the Commission gives you no assurance whatsoever of the use, and gives -you the complete choice of either submitting them or not under those -circumstances. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, being a layman, I understand, I think, what you are -telling me, in a way. But, on the other hand, being a layman, I feel -actually I have no choice. - -You have to understand I am not an attorney. - -Mr. DOYLE. But you do have a choice, because you are not here under -subpena. Your materials have not been subpenaed. The Commission has -advised you openly here that you may submit them or not as you see fit -to do. So there is no force, no legal force at all. This is absolutely -up to you. - -The only thing that has been expressed to you is that they can give you -no assurance or guarantee as to what use the Commission will make of -them, that they will make what use they believe in their judgment is -required by the Executive order and the purposes of their investigation. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I understand. And that is why I wanted the Commission to -have all pictures that I have. - -Now, may I request something? I don't think it is presumptuous of me. -Maybe it is. - -Could I sign for my rights for these pictures, and then let you have -the pictures? - -I am afraid that they may get lost. - -The CHAIRMAN. I think, Mrs. Oswald, if you have any doubt us to whether -a misuse will be made of your papers, or if they are as valuable, -moneywise, to you as you think they are, then I would suggest to you -that you retain them yourself. We, of course, would be interested to -see them, and they might be helpful--I don't know, because I don't know -what you have there, or what context the pictures will be in. - -But as your lawyer has told you, you are not under subpena here, you -appeared voluntarily because you requested to testify before us. Those -documents are not under subpena. They belong to you. They are in your -possession. I have not seen them. You are at liberty to use them in -your testimony or not, as you please. - -But if you do, the Commission cannot put any limitations on the use -that it will make of them. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Even though you have stated, Chief Justice Warren, just -now, that you do not know if they are valuable to the Commission--and -yet I have information from Mr. Jenner that they are valuable to the -Commission, because they pertain to Lee's life at age 13 to age 16. - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes, I say they might be. I don't know. I have never seen -them. - -But the choice is with you, Mrs. Oswald. You may do just as you please. -If you wish to testify concerning them, and put them in the hands of -the Commission, you may do so. - -But the Commission cannot limit itself in the use of its testimony. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I want the Commission to have this. - -Moneywise, it is more important for the Commission to know this boy's -life and my life--but also I need to protect myself financially, -because I am a widow, and do not have the money. And this will -mean--these are valuable pictures. - -I am not questioning the integrity of this Commission or the loyalty. -What I am questioning is that possibly they may get lost or someone may -somehow or other get ahold of these pictures and exploit them, and get -money for them, which has happened to some other pictures already, sir, -and then---- - -The CHAIRMAN. Not those that you have given to the Commission? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir--but with another---- - -The CHAIRMAN. Well, I think, Mrs. Oswald, it would serve no purpose for -us to debate the matter. I have tried to tell you very frankly, and -your lawyer has told you very frankly and correctly, that you have a -free choice to do just as you please. And we will abide by that choice -that you may make. - -Mrs. OSWALD. May I confer with my lawyer for about 10 minutes? - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes. We will take a recess, and you may talk to him. - -(Brief recess.) - -The CHAIRMAN. Come to order, please. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Last night, Mr. Rankin, I read Lee working at one place -after Tujaque. I do not know the name, sir. I think he worked there -just a few days. He had the keys to the office. And, as I returned home -from work one day, another young man was at the apartment, the door of -the apartment, and said that Lee was discharged, and that Lee had the -keys to the office, and just then Lee walked up and gave this young man -the keys. - -Now, I do not know the name of the place. And I believe he just worked -there, sir, a few days. - -I read that afterwards. - -If you will refresh me, I will give you any information I have. But it -is hard for me to think of everything. - -I believe we have cleared up the business today that we have missed. - -I have decided--and maybe I am wrong, because to me money is only -good as to its use. However, there have been so many things since the -assassination that has not been in my favor, I believe that I am going -to keep my personal pictures. - -The CHAIRMAN. You may do so. - -Mrs. OSWALD. If at any time in the future that you would like to have -these pictures, I will be more than happy to have copies made and give -them to the Commission. - -There is another matter, Mr. Rankin, that is very important, that you -asked me--Governor Connally's letter. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I had read this at the press conference. A letter from Lee -Harvey Oswald to John Connally, Secretary of the Navy. This is just -written from the newspaper article. - -"I have been in the Soviet Union with the full sanction of the U.S. -Embassy in Moscow." He asked the Navy Department to take the necessary -steps to repair the damage to me and my family. "I shall employ all -means to right the gross mistakes or injustices to a bona fide U.S. -citizen, an ex-serviceman." - -Now, I do not consider this a threat, because I, myself, if I had a -dishonorable discharge, and I was a good marine for 3 years, and I felt -like it hurt my mother and my children, and my wife, I would make such -a statement, because I am a very definite person, as you know by now. -I have been testifying for 3 days. And my son is of the same nature. -He loved the Marines, and as far as he was concerned, he served his -country 3 years. And it was a stigma to me and his children, and he -wanted to right the wrong. - -So I do not consider this a threat. - -He went to Austin. There was an article in the paper--trying to get -this rectified, and the young lady gave a very nice report of Lee, said -he was very polite. - -This is not a threat. - -This is just how Lee was tried immediately in a few hours time, -newspaper talk, and so on and so forth. - -I would state this emphatically more maybe than Lee did, if I had a -dishonorable discharge, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever hear your son say anything against Governor -Connally? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. - -But here is what I have written down. The day at Robert's house, when -I came in from the country, I, myself, gave Lee the copy--we had many -copies--you showed me the copy--I gave him the copy and told him--I had -written him and told him about the dishonorable discharge, but I did -not send any papers, because I didn't want the Russians to know. - -But when I came, I had a scrapbook, and I gave him a copy, Mr. Rankin, -of the reason for dishonorable discharge. He says "Don't worry about -it, mother. I can fix that. It is no problem." - -So then the boy tried to fix it. And this is not a threat. My son is of -this disposition, and he felt like he was a good marine. That I know. -I would do the same. And I will read it now to Governor Connally: "I -shall employ all means to right the gross mistake done to my family and -my now dead son." - -I expect to write to anybody officially to rectify this mistake. - -I have shown this publicly at press conferences, and so I will employ -all means to rectify this mistake--the mother of Lee Harvey Oswald. I -intended to do that. That is my life's work. - -I have the name of the man I talked to. - -Chief Justice Warren--I will start from Lee as baby, before I get to -this. - -Lee was born October 18, 1939, in New Orleans, La. His mother, -Marguerite Claverie Oswald, his father's name was Robert Edward Lee, -he was named after General Lee. The family's name is Harvey--his -grandmother's name was Harvey. And so he was named Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Lee was born 2 months after the death of his father, who died from a -heart attack, coronary thrombosis. - -Lee was a very happy baby. - -I stayed home with the children as long as I could, because I believe -that a mother should be home with her children. - -I don't want to get into my story, though. - -Lee had a normal life as far as I, his mother, is concerned. He had a -bicycle, he had everything that other children had. - -Lee has wisdom without education. From a very small child--I have said -this before, sir, and I have publicly stated this in 1959--Lee seemed -to know the answers to things without schooling. That type child, in a -way, is bored with schooling, because he is a little advanced. - -Lee used to climb on top of the roof with binoculars, looking at the -stars. He was reading astrology. Lee knew about any and every animal -there was. He studied animals. All of their feeding habits, sleeping -habits. He could converse--and that is why he was at the Bronx Zoo when -he was picked up for truancy--he loved animals. - -Lee played Monopoly. Lee played chess. Lee had a stamp collection, and -even wrote to other young men and exchanged stamps, sir. - -And Lee read history books, books too deep for a child his age. At age -9 he was always instructed not to contact me at work unless it was an -emergency, because my work came first--he called me at work and said, -"Mother, Queen Elizabeth's baby has been born." - -He broke the rule to let me know that Queen Elizabeth's baby had been -born. Nine years old. That was important to him. He liked things of -that sort. - -He loved comics, read comic books. He loved television programs. But -most of all he loved the news on radio and television. If he was in -the midst of a story, a film--he would turn it off for news. That was -important. - -And I have stated in 1959, which is in print, that Lee loved maps. Lee -would study maps, sir. And he could tell you the distance from here and -there. And when he was home on leave, I was amazed. Something was said -about an airplane trip. Immediately he knew how many miles in the air -that that plane took. - -Lee read very, very important things. And any and everything he could -do. - -Yet he played Monopoly, played baseball. - -He belonged to the "Y." He used to go swimming. He would come by work -with his head wet, and I would say, "Hurry home, honey, you are going -to catch cold." - -And I considered that, sir, a very normal life. - -I am probably forgetting some things. - -So then Robert joined the Marines in 1956--am I correct--that Robert -joined the Marines? - -No, Robert joined the Marines in 1952. We are now in Fort Worth, Tex., -until 1952. - -So then I decided, since I was working, I did not want Lee to be alone. -Up until this time, sir, he had a brother. So I sold my home at 7400 -Ewing Street, and went to New York City, not as a venture, but because -my older son, John Edward Pic, lived in New York, and had lived in New -York for years. He was in the Coast Guard, as a military man. He has -now been in the service 14 years, and at that time it would have been -approximately 8 or 9 years--I may be off because that is approximately. -So he was stationed in New York. So I had no problem of selling my home -and going there, thinking that John Edward would leave New York. - -But the main thing was to be where I had family. And I moved to New -York for that reason. - -Mr. RANKIN. About what date was that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This was exactly August 1952, because I wanted to get -there in time for Lee's schooling. And if I am not mistaken, Robert -joined the Marines in July of 1952. And that was my reason for going. - -I immediately enrolled Lee in a Lutheran school, because Lee was not -confirmed--he was baptized in the Lutheran faith, but because of moving -around--I had married Mr. Ekdahl in this period and so on, Lee was not -confirmed. - -I enrolled him in the Lutheran school which took him approximately an -hour or longer by subway to get there. It was quite a distance. That is -when we first arrived in New York. - -I believe that Lee was in that school a very short time, 2 or 3 weeks, -because at this time I was living in my daughter-in-law's home and son. -And we were not welcome, sir. We were welcome for a few days. But then -we were to get a place of our own--because her mother lived with her, -and her mother had left to go visit a sister. So Lee and I could come -to visit. But we were not going to live with John and his wife. - -So we just stayed there a short time. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was there any time that you recall that there was a threat -of Lee Oswald against Mrs. Pic with a knife or anything like that? - -Do you remember that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I do. I am glad you said that. - -My daughter-in-law was very upset. The very first time we went there--I -stated before, and I am glad I said that--that we were not welcome. And -immediately it was asked what did we plan to do, as soon as we put our -foot in the house. And I had made it plain to John Edward that I was -going to have a place of my own, that we were just coming there to get -located. - -My daughter-in-law resented the fact that her mother--this went on -before I got there--that her mother had to leave the house and go visit -a sister so I could come, John Edward's mother. I had never met my -daughter-in-law. She didn't like me, and she didn't like Lee. - -So she--what is the word to say--not picked on the child, but she -showed her displeasure. - -And she is a very--not, I would say so much an emotional person--but -this girl is a New Yorker who was brought up in this particular -neighborhood, which I believe is a poor section of New York. - -The mother had lived in this home all her life. And this girl cursed -like a trooper. She is--you cannot express it, Mr. Rankin--but not of a -character of a high caliber. - -At this particular time she had never been out of this neighborhood, or -out of New York. And Lee loved the little baby. And he played with the -baby and wanted to hold the baby and everything, which she objected. - -We were not wanted, sir, from the very beginning. So there was, -I think now--it was not a kitchen knife--it was a little pocket -knife, a child's knife, that Lee had. So she hit Lee. So Lee had the -knife--now, I remember this distinctly, because I remember how awful I -thought Marjory was about this. Lee had the knife in his hand. He was -whittling, because John Edward whittled ships and taught Lee to whittle -ships. He puts them in the glass, you know. And he was whittling when -this incident occurred. And that is what it occurred about, because -there was scraps of the wood on the floor. - -So when she attacked the child, he had the knife in hand. So she made -the statement to my son that we had to leave, that Lee tried to use a -knife on her. - -Now, I say that is not true, gentlemen. You can be provoked into -something. And because of the fact that he was whittling, and had the -knife in his hand, they struggled. - -He did not use the knife--he had an opportunity to use the knife. - -But it wasn't a kitchen knife or a big knife. It was a little knife. - -So I will explain it that way, sir. - -So immediately then I started to look for a place. - -I did find a place, I think, off the Concourse. I do not remember the -street. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was that in the Bronx? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Off the Concourse, in the Bronx. And it was a basement -apartment. - -I had shipped some of my furniture. It was in a storehouse at this -time. So I got it out and put it in this basement. - -Lee had his own single bed. It was a one--one great big, big room. -But we had the kitchen--regular New York type style--the kitchen and -the bedroom and everything together, but large enough--a big one-room -apartment. And there was a single bed that Lee slept on, and I slept on -the studio couch. - -Then Lee went to school. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was that Public School 117? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I have that information here. - -Went to school in the neighborhood, Public School 117, which is a -junior high school in the Bronx. It states here he attended 15 of 47 -days. This is the place we were living that Lee was picked up by the -truant officer in the Bronx Zoo. - -I was informed of this at work, and I had to appear before a board, -which I did. - -Lee went back to school. - -Then he was picked up again in the Bronx Zoo. And I had to appear -before a board committee again. - -Then the third time that Lee was picked up, we were--I never did get a -subpena, but we were told that he had to appear at Children's Court. -But I never--how I got the notice to appear at Children's Court--I am -at a loss, sir. - -But I did not contact at this time a lawyer or anything. I did not -know. I did not think it was anything serious, because the Texas laws -are not like the New York laws. In New York, if you are out of school -one day you go to Children's Court. In Texas the children stay out of -school for months at a time. - -Lee had never done this. So I appeared with my son in court. There was -a judge asked me if I want to be represented by court counsel. And I -believe I said, yes, I believe I was represented by the court counsel -at this particular time. And within a few minutes time--because there -were hundreds of people sitting, waiting with their truant children, -and it was just like this--you didn't take the time we are taking here, -a half hour, to discuss the case. It was done immediately. - -My child was taken from me in the courtroom. - -Mr. RANKIN. Had he been out of school quite a bit? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. At this time, he had not been out of school quite -a bit. - -So then I was given a slip of paper--no, I am sorry. I was told where -to go, where Lee was, which was another office. - -They took Lee from me in the courtroom, two men, officers, presumably. -Then I went into another office and here was Lee. Lee was wearing his -brother's Marine ring, just an ornament ring. They gave me Lee's ring -and the things he had in his pocket, and told me that Lee was going to -be at this home, which I think the name was the Warwick Home for Boys. -And gave me a slip of paper and told me when I could visit Lee. - -And that was all I knew at this particular time. - -The child was immediately taken, and I was told to visit the child. - -Now, I believe it was--this home was in Brooklyn. I may have the name -wrong. It was an old, old home in Brooklyn. - -So I went to visit my son. - -And I hope some day to rectify this, because I think conditions of this -kind in our United States of America are deplorable. And I want that to -go down in the record. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did they tell you why he was taken to this home, your son? - -Mrs. OSWALD. For truancy, yes, sir. - -So I had to stand single file approximately a block and a half, sir, -with Puerto Ricans and Negroes and everything, and people of my class, -single file, until we got to the main part of this building, which had -a wire, a very heavy wire, partition wire, a man sitting back of the -desk, but a man in the front of the gate that let me in. I had packages -of gum and some candy for my son. And I sat down there. And the gum -wrappers were taken off the gum, and the candy wrappers were taken off. - -And my pocketbook was emptied. Yes, sir, and I asked why. It was -because the children in this home were such criminals, dope fiends, and -had been in criminal offenses, that anybody entering this home had to -be searched in case the parents were bringing cigarettes or narcotics -or anything. - -So that is why I was searched. - -So I was escorted into a large room, where there were parents talking -with their children. - -And Lee came out. He started to cry. He said, "Mother, I want to get -out of here. There are children in here who have killed people, and -smoke. I want to get out." - -So then I realized--I had not realized until I went there what kind of -place we had my child in. - -We don't have these kinds of places in Texas or New Orleans, sir. - -Then I realized what a serious thing this was. And this is when I -decided I needed an attorney. - -But Lee, I think, was approximately in that home--I am not sure--5 or 6 -weeks, which accounts for his truancy that the papers say that Lee was -a truant, that he was out of school so long. - -It is because he was in this home, sir. That accounts for a lot of the -truancy. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you talk to him about his truancy, say anything to him -about it, or ask him about it, how he happened to stay out of school? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I asked Lee. - -Well, this comes in another part. - -Mr. RANKIN. All right. - -Mrs. OSWALD. So I left my son that day, and I think I visited him a -couple of times after that. I am not quite sure. - -But in the meantime, I engaged an attorney. I do not know the name of -the attorney, and I wish I did. - -When I told the attorney about Lee--and I have stated this at a press -conference--he raised the roof, so as to say. He was indignant. I -cannot quote his exact words. But what he said was that New York State -picked up these boys and put them on a farm, and they pay these boys to -work on this farm for the State of New York. - -Now, I may not be saying this exactly. You may have the picture of the -home. - -But these boys work on the farm and are paid for it, I understand. That -is all I can remember, sir, about this unpleasant thing, because I did -not think it would ever come in my life, and after the time it happened -I tried to put it out of my mind. - -But now I am refreshed a little on that. - -So Lee was in this home 5 or 6 weeks, I believe. You probably have the -record. - -So then we were asked to appear to court. I went into court with this -attorney. And there, again, real fast we were in the courtroom and Lee -was brought in, and Lee sat down by me. And I remember this distinctly, -because Lee had ear trouble quite often. And I saw his ear running, and -I said, "Lee, you are having an earache." And the judge heard me saying -something to Lee. - -He said, "What did you tell your boy, Mrs. Oswald?" - -I said, "Judge, I asked him if he had an earache." - -I didn't know they were going to give me the child then. - -So the judge talked to Lee and asked Lee if he was going to be good, -and go back to school. Lee answered, "Yes, sir." And he said to me, -"Mrs. Oswald, I understand that you and your daughter-in-law do not -get along." I said, "That is correct." And he suggested that Lee -would be much better off back in the open wide spaces that he was -used to instead of in New York, where we had no family then, because -the daughter-in-law and son were not friendly with us. And this judge -suggested that. And the judge gave me my son, right then and there, -gentlemen. - -I left the courtroom with my boy. He was given to me in my custody. - -Now, that is all I know of the case. The particular case. - -From there, we went into an office where there was a probation officer, -Mr. John Carro. Mr. Carro talked with Lee and asked Lee if he was going -to go back to school. - -"Yes, sir." - -He reprimanded him a little bit--maybe not that, but gave him a little -talk. And he said, "Lee, you are to report to me once a week for -probation." - -I am going to stress this. - -I have been in this Commission 3 days. And you know I am very definite. -So I was very definite with Mr. Carro. I did not mince my words. I -said, "Mr. Carro, my son is not reporting to you once a week. This is -not a criminal offense. He was picked up for truancy, he has assured -the judge, promised the judge that he would be back to school. He has -promised you he would be back to school. Let's give this boy a chance, -and let's see if he will go to school." - -"And then, Mr. Carro, if he doesn't go to school, then you can have him -report to you." - -Mr. Carro didn't take that graciously, which is true. When you don't -agree with anyone over you, then you are in the minority, and you just -as well make up your mind right then and there, that is it. - -So from that time on Mr. Carro pestered me and Lee. Mr. Carro would -call me at work, sir, and say that he had gone by the school, and that -they were having trouble with Lee. And I went to the school and talked -to the principal and she said, "Mrs. Oswald, what happened while the -probation officer was here--Lee moved the chair back, and it made a -little noise." - -And that is what Mr. Carro reported. - -In plain words, gentlemen, Mr. Carro was indignant at my attitude, -because he was an official. - -Mr. RANKIN. What school was that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This was the first school, sir. - -Then I moved. I am a little confused. Just a minute. - -I took Lee out of the first school because the children knew that he -had been in the home, and I thought he didn't stand a chance. - -So I moved to help my child again. - -And I personally went with Lee to the principal and told the -principal--not in front of Lee--had a talk with her--that Lee had been -in this home, and that if she could help him in any way, and knew of -any friends, children his age that lived in the neighborhood where we -lived, I would appreciate it. And she did help. There was a young lady -in this building that we lived, in the Bronx--now we are living near -the Bronx Zoo. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is this the new school? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is the new school. And we are living near the Bronx -Zoo, which is 100 and something street. - -Mr. RANKIN. And this is Public School 44? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--Public School 44. So I talked to the principal -and told her about the trouble and asked if she could not help us. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, the place that he was committed to was--do you recall -that was Berkshire Farms? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, because he was not committed to a farm, as far as I -knew, sir. All I knew was that he was in this home in Brooklyn. He was -never committed to a farm, as far as I know, sir. He was in this home -all this time. And this is where I am assuming, because I knew nothing -about this--the psychiatric treatment took place, and naturally that is -why they would have him in this home to observe him. - -And, by the way, I was called one day to go to the home and a young -lady talked with me. And I sensed that she was questioning me for -a reason, because I had been on my own all these years, and I am a -business woman. So I remembered one distinct incident. She said, "Mrs. -Oswald, how strong do you believe in education?" - -And I said, "I believe strongly in education, but not to an extent -that a mother should go out and work and deprive her children of a -mother's home and love in order to make the extra money to give her -children a college education," because I happen to know that a college -education sometimes is not as important as wisdom. There are college -graduates that do not know how to apply their ability. And so to me--I -could never be home with my children. I had to work and leave my -children--which was a very sore spot, let's say. I would have given the -world if I could have been home and raised my children. And here are -women, because of material things, and because they want to give their -children a college education, deprive their children of this motherly -love, that I myself was deprived of because of an unfortunate affair. - -So to get education to that extent, no, sir, I do not approve of it. I -think it is more important for children to come home and have someone -in that home when they come home from school, and do without a college -education. I am strongly for that, because of my experience. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was Lee Oswald a good student? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I have his records from all the schools in New Orleans, -sir. But we are not through with New York--that will show he passed -satisfactory grades. - -Mr. RANKIN. How about New York? Was he a good student there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think he was an average student. Yes. - -Now, I personally brought Lee to the school and talked to some of the -teachers. And they told me that Lee was a bright boy, but that he was -bored with school--there was just something there. Lee was in a sense -bored with school in this sense--that Lee was an overly bright boy, -studious boy, and he should have been placed in a school that we have -now, I understand, for special children of this sort. - -Mr. RANKIN. But his grades were not too good during this period? - -Mrs. OSWALD. They were passing grades, I would say. Now, that is what I -know about the New York situation. - -Now, it has come out, gentlemen, that he had had psychiatric treatment -there. I did not know of any psychiatric treatment there. But now I am -assuming naturally he did have it then. There is a report on it. - -I wish to say this. I am just a practical nurse. I became a nurse -because of my experiences, and I wanted to devote my life to humanity, -which I have stated before. But I do know this. I work in hospitals, -rest homes, private homes, and all of our hospitals, and all of our -rest homes, and all of our institutions are understaffed. - -Now, I think you will agree there. We are all understaffed. Every one -I have ever been in. So I will say if Lee had psychiatric treatment -in this home, there are hundreds and hundreds of children, he could -not have had a complete psychiatric examination. We do not know. I do -not know if he had a complete. But I will say that according to other -institutions, that this institution was also understaffed. - -I am going to make one remark to Mr. Jack Ruby. He has to have five -psychiatrists. Now, here is one little psychiatric examination on a -13-year-old boy. - -So, then we will go to Lee's schooling in New Orleans. - -Mr. RANKIN. Before you leave New York, did you ever tell anybody that -you took Lee Oswald to New York so he could have mental tests at the -Jacobi Hospital? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, never. My child was a normal child--and while -in New York. I explained to you he had a dog with puppies. The school -teachers talked well about him. He had a bicycle. There was nothing -abnormal about Lee Oswald. - -It has been stated also I was offered psychiatric treatment which is -incorrect. This Mr. Carro I understand is a very big man. He may be -supplying the files with all of this. But, sir, it is untrue. - -Mr. RANKIN. Then you went to New Orleans after that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. Then they assigned a big brother to Lee. This is -important to the story. - -So this man came out to the apartment on several occasions and saw the -type person I was and my son was. And he did not see anything wrong -with the child. Evidently not. Because he suggested that it might be a -good idea--I had told him the way Mr. Carro was doing. Mr. Carro was -pestering me, sir, at work, with just little insignificant reports that -I would call the school and the principal would assure me everything -was all right. - -So he thought that it would be better if I would take the child away. -And I didn't know I could do that. I didn't know exactly the charge. - -So, I said, "Is it all right? They won't arrest us and bring us back?" - -He said, "No, there is no extraditing"--that was his words. - -So, I wrote Mr. Carro a letter explaining that I was taking--Lee and I -were going to New Orleans, and Lee had cousins his age in New Orleans, -and I thought the child would be better off amongst his own family. And -the judge had recommended that if we could possibly leave New York that -it would be better for Lee. And I wrote Mr. Carro the letter, sir. I -did not flee New York. I had the decency to write him a letter. And the -Big Brother is the one that recommended this. - -Now, that is what I know of the New York. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember the name of the Big Brother? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not know the name of the Big Brother. But -from the newspaper accounts, they know the name. The Big Brother stated -how clean the apartment was, and how nice we were. - -Mr. RANKIN. And then you went to New Orleans, did you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Then we went to New Orleans. And we stayed at -my sister's house, 757 French Street, and immediately Lee enrolled -in--let's get back to this. This is in Fort Worth, Tex. Lee attended -the Ridglea West School and graduated--was promoted to junior high in -1952. In 1952 is when we went to New York. Now, we are in New Orleans. - -Lee was immediately enrolled in Beauregard School in New Orleans, La., -upon arriving in New Orleans. And here is his certificate of promotion -to high school. And they have stated that his attendance was very -good. He just missed 9 days, I think, out of the whole term, which is -considered very good. - -Mr. RANKIN. How was he as a student in New Orleans? - -Mrs. OSWALD. C grades. He was promoted, or he wouldn't have C grades. -So that is two certificates there. - -Then I have another certificate. He went to--no, I would not have the -certain, and then from the promotion he was promoted to the Warren -Easton High School. And that is the school that Lee wrote the note--am -I correct? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. It is already in evidence. He wrote and said you were -going to San Diego, and it was not your note at all. He signed your -name. - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is right. And then, as you know, Robert was -discharged from the Marines, and Robert did not want to live in New -Orleans. So there again--so we could be a family--and this young boy, -who was the youngest, could be with a brother. I moved back to Fort -Worth, sir, because Robert was in Fort Worth so we could be a family -again. However, I moved in July, and Lee joined the Marines in October. -So we were just there a few months. - -Lee attended Arlington High School there. And when we came back to -Fort Worth, Tex., the school did not know what to do with Lee. Lee, I -think, was approximately 2 weeks entering the school. He was too far -advanced from the New Orleans and New York schools, and not advanced -enough--let's see if I can explain this right--according to his age. -He was too old to be in the junior, or vice versa. But I do know, and -I have witnesses to this, that Lee could not immediately enter school. -They had to have a conference, a board conference, because of Lee's -curriculum from school. They didn't know which school to place him in. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did he get along with you? Did you get along well -together? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Lee was a very quiet and studious boy. None of my -children gave me any trouble, thank God. We have no police record, sir, -or anything like that. And the children were always more or less home. -And particularly Lee. Lee would go to the movies, and things like that. -He was a normal boy. But when he was home, he was most happy. And I am -of this disposition. - -He could keep himself occupied--reading and when he watched a football -game on television, he would have the score pad, and things of that -sort. And so he was quite happy in his own way. - -Now, here is something very important. - -While in New Orleans, in order to go to Arlington Heights school, -which is one of the ritziest schools in New Orleans, all the wealthy -people go there, and we happened to live in the vicinity--Lee wanted a -two-wheel bicycle, sir, and I bought him one. So when school opened, -Lee went to school on a two-wheel bicycle. Can you picture this. A -16-1/2-year-old boy going to school on a bicycle, when all the other -children had their own cars? Just picture this. My children never did -want anything, and particularly Lee. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did he get along with his brothers? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, now, at this time he didn't know too much about his -brothers. John Edward had been in the service since age 17, so it has -been a number of years, other than leaves. And Robert had just finished -his 3-year hitch. So you see the brothers have had nothing to do with -Lee since age 13 actually--otherwise than visits. Because when Robert -came back, then Lee joined the Marines. - -Now, this is the U.S. Marine Corps acceptance. And it says "I am -very pleased to notify you that your son, Lee Harvey Oswald, has -successfully passed the mental, moral, and physical examinations," and -so forth. My son was a marine. And I understand a very important marine. - -He was in electronics. I have read--one of the marines that was with -him said when he defected to Russia they had to change the system. He -must have had a real responsible position, if Lee defected to Russia, -and all the systems had to be changed. I don't know if this is correct. -But this man made the statement, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he have any courts-martial that you knew about while he -was in the Marines? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I did not know until what came out in the paper. And I -have discussed that with several high officials, marines, and so on and -so forth. A lot of men, they tell me, carry a gun. And if you did curse -an officer, that is done sometimes, too--that is not anything criminal. -I mean we all get provoked at some particular time. I am not taking -up for the boy. I don't know what happened. But I know I myself would -be guilty of that, if someone pushed me, that I may curse him. And I -am sure it is done quite often. And I understand that Lee slashed his -wrist. I find that from the paper. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you know anything about that? How that happened? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir--otherwise than what I know in the paper. I do not -know, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. What about a man that was killed, that was one of his -buddies in the Marines? - -Did you ever know anything about that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. This is the first time I have heard about that. I -haven't even read that in the paper. I did not know about that. If I -can help you in any way--his picture in the Marines--there are names of -the men on the back. I do not know what they mean. But the names of the -men are on the back of picture, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. When was it that he slashed his wrist--in the Marine -Corps? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I understand when he was in Moscow--is that correct? I do -not know otherwise from what I read in the paper. These things, how -could I know. - -Representative FORD. May I see that picture? - -Mr. RANKIN. In the Soviet Union? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. And that is why, too, it has been stated that he -was possibly an agent, to show, when the Russians would not give him -citizenship, he slashed his wrist, to show that he did not want to -return back to the United States, and forced the Russians to keep him -there. That has been stated. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever know that he shot himself while he was in the -Marines? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I read that in the paper. - -Mr. RANKIN. He never told you that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. And I read in the paper that it could have been -an accident. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you know anything about how good a shot he was? Did he -ever tell you that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Lee came home with a trophy, but it is a Marine -trophy--may I have that please, I need a number. It is not on this. We -have another picture. But it had Lee Harvey Oswald. But it was given -not to him, but to the platoon. And he was very, very proud of it. -Lee was very proud of his Marine hitch, because every time he came on -leave, that is all he talked about. That I know. And I am the only one -that knows this. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was that trophy with regard to marksmanship? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Now, Marina would have that. I gave that to Lee and -Marina when they returned from Russia, and the Marine book that Lee was -so proud of, and the baby book that I had all these years. And I think -it was in regard to marksmanship. - -Now, I have Lee's--they are copying all of this, Mr. Doyle--Lee's -shooting record. I have that, sir. I have anything you want. It was -left in his sea bag. And all of this was left in Lee's sea bag. - -This is a picture of Lee with his marines, and, it is a special, I -think he was doing special work there. I am not familiar--I wasn't -told that. But it is different than the other picture. Lee went to -many, many a school, gentlemen. He went to the Marine Air Force Base -in Biloxi, Mississippi, to schooling. He went to Jacksonville and some -others. I remarked, "Your brothers were not sent from here to there -like you were." Lee was in Japan, Lee was in Corregidor, Lee was in the -Philippines, and Lee was in Formosa. That has not been publicly stated. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what schooling he had at these various places? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I would think that it was special schooling. - -Mr. RANKIN. He never told you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. But the other brothers didn't have that type -schooling. And I even remarked about it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever hear your son say anything for or against -President Kennedy? - -Mrs. OSWALD. While Marina and Lee were in my home that month, and I had -a television---- - -Mr. RANKIN. About what time was that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. This was July, 1962--when they stayed the month with me. -Yes, they were delighted with President Kennedy, both. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did they say about him? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing political--just "Like President Kennedy." He was -telling Marina about President Kennedy. "I like President Kennedy"--"I -like, too." - -My son has never said anything to me politically about anyone. My -son loved the Marines, and loved his work and has never, never said -anything against--the only time I questioned my son was ask him why he -decided to come home, and he said, "Not even Marina knows that." - -That was the one question I wanted to know, because of the many things -that they sent me from Russia, as I have previously stated. That was -the only thing. So that satisfied me. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you know anything about his guns--what guns he had? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, this is very important, and I am glad you brought this -up. This is the part in New Orleans that I forgot about. - -While Lee was working for Tujague & Co. he started to have a bank -account, and it was in a Homestead. I do not know the name, but it was -on Canal Street, 900 or 100 block of Canal Street, because it was even -with Exchange Place. And he started to save his money. The purpose of -saving his money was to go on a tour with a young group. He was working -for a steamship place as a mess engineer so he was going around to all -of these seagoing trips. And I saw the brochure. It was sponsored by -very prominent people. There was nothing wrong with it. If he wanted -to go, that was all right--could go on this. So he started to save his -money to go. However, this was in January--you want the date? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Are we in 1955 in New Orleans? Yes. No, 1956 this would -be. January, 1956--Lee took his money out of the Homestead, which was -approximately $150, or something like that. And Lee Harvey Oswald -bought an electric football machine--cost approximately $10. He bought -a bow and arrow set--maybe about $6 or $7. And he bought a gun. Now, I -don't know about guns. I was going to say BB gun, but I will not say it -was a BB gun--but Robert Oswald will know--or a rifle. But it was not -an expensive gun. He was just 16 1/2 years old. And I am of the opinion -if he bought a real gun, I would have had to sign or something. I may -be wrong. But anyhow it was a gun to go squirrel hunting or rabbit -hunting. I will identify it like that. And then we can go into it -further. - -And he paid $35 on a coat for me. And the very first job that--the very -first pay that Lee got from this job from Tujague sir, he came home -with a bird cage on a stand that had a planter. It had the ivy in the -planter, it had the parakeet, and it had a complete set of food for -the parakeet. His very first pay. And then he paid his room and board. -I kept this bird cage--the stand was collapsible--all these years, in -the back of my car, and put it up, no matter where I was on a case, and -had the bird up until about 2 years ago--no, I had the bird, and gave -it to Lee when they came back from Russia. What has become of it I do -not know. I gave the bird and bird cage to Lee and Marina when they -came back from Russia. I am trying to give you the picture of this boy. -Would you ask me some more questions, please? It is awful hard for me -to remember everything. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember any other guns he had? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. This is the only gun that I have known Lee to -have. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, about Officer Tippit. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Let me finish about Robert and his gun. This is important -to you. - -When we came to New Orleans, I worked at Washer Bros., in New -Orleans--transferred from--Goldrings in New Orleans is Washer Bros. in -Fort Worth, Tex. So I worked at Washer Bros. Lee came into the place I -worked one day with the gun and wanted me to sign a paper so he could -sell the gun. Well, I was indignant that he came where I was working -with a gun. I said, "Lee, we will talk about it later." And several of -the salesladies thought that I brushed him off real fast. Well, now, -Robert bought that gun from Lee, and gave Lee $10 for the gun. It was -3 months we were living in New Orleans. So Robert gave Lee $10 for -the gun. And Robert used to go hunting with it at his mother-in-law's -house. I have stated they live in the country and they go rabbit and -squirrel hunting. Robert would know about the gun, the type gun and -everything. I do not know. - -Mr. RANKIN. You have told us all you know about the gun? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is all I know about the gun. And Robert bought the -gun from Lee, gave him $10. - -Mr. RANKIN. You haven't told us whether you thought your son killed -Officer Tippit. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I strictly do not believe that Lee killed Officer Tippit. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us why? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I am sorry to have to elaborate so, but this, as you -know, is very important. - -Mr. Lane and myself are investigating, with hundreds of investigators. -I have over 1,500 letters. We have reporters and people investigating -for us, that are not satisfied with the whole case. And Mr. Lane has a -lot of affidavits. I cannot say what Mr. Lane has. But he is doing a -very good job about this. And we have come to the conclusion that Lee -is not guilty of Officer Tippit. - -Now, I gave you a picture yesterday--you might have it there, I don't -know, Mr. Rankin--that could possibly be Marina and the child. We -have found out that the Book Depository Building--Mr. Lane has this -information--it is owned by the city of Dallas--I should not go into -that, I don't know. He has all of this information. Or it is a lease. -It is government-owned some way or other. I should not say. Mr. Lane -has all of this. We have been investigating night and day. - -The CHAIRMAN. Well, we have the picture, Mrs. Oswald. - -Mrs. OSWALD. All right. On the picture, then--and I have talked to -Mr. Doyle about this--you might think I am crazy to say so. The first -thing I saw in this picture--this picture was sent to me by a woman -with a letter telling me to look at the picture carefully. I did not -read the letter. I did not want her opinion, or other people's opinion -about this picture. We have a lot of comments about this picture. I -immediately looked at the picture when I opened it. The first thing -I saw was my son Lee and Marina and the child. Then when I called -this woman long distance. I said, "You want to know what I saw in the -picture?" and I told her. She says, "No, that is not what I see." - -Representative FORD. Did you say your first reaction was that you saw -Lee, Marina and the child? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That was my first reaction. And, if I am correct--I don't -say I am correct--but if I am correct, this would be the solution. Lee -was escorted out of the building. Kennedy is shot now--I will have -to show you the picture. He has passed the window where Lee's rifle -is supposed to be. And he is shot in the neck. He has passed this -particular part. He is shot in the neck. And then this man that I think -is Lee--and I wish I could swear to it, but I am fully convinced--is -being escorted out of the building and could be escorted--I am -speculating, sir--I have no proof of this. I wish I did. Could be -escorted out of the building by a policeman. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is the picture you are looking at the one you referred to? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it is--Exhibit 203. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 203? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Now, this is who I think Lee is. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. There is no face. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is the man right in the doorway? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. This is Lee's build and everything. The first -thing I saw. - -Now, they think this is Lee. - -No, sir, I do not. - -Everybody thinks this is Lee. - -Mr. RANKIN. When you say they think--it is the man leaning against the -side of the doorway, is that right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. That is the picture that everybody is convinced is -Lee. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you think it is the one next to him that doesn't show -any face? It shows the arms over the head? - -Mrs. OSWALD. He has his arms up in the air. - -Now, that is what I saw immediately--against everybody else seeing it. -And this woman and child could possibly be Marina. - -Now, to explain this--whether I thought Lee shot Officer Tippit or -not--Lee could be escorted out of this building with a gun in his back -possibly. I am just speculating, sir. But there is a lot of speculation -in this case all over the world. From foreign countries I have letters. -And that is how he got out of the building. And this same officer could -have been killed, because he was involved in this, and then he could -have been killed, to be kept quiet. There is a possibility of this, -gentlemen. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, will you take this blue pencil and carefully -mark on Exhibit 203? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't mean to be telling this Commission what to do. And -I cannot do it. But I would like to have this picture printed. And I am -willing--I have some few dollars--I have been selling some pictures. I -am willing to give a reward of $1,000 if this picture can be printed -and these people come--it would have to be Secret Service, FBI, and -state their names. - -I would like to have the people here--let us find out who those people -are. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you mark the letter "A" above the part that you have -circled on Exhibit 203, that you say are Marina and the little girl? - -Mrs. OSWALD. All right. - -Mr. RANKIN. And "B" over what you circled as being your idea of Lee -Oswald being there. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Now, that is what I saw, and nobody else has seen this. -They see the man next to him. - -Would you want me to put the man next to it that they see as Lee? He -has the same clothes on as Lee. - -Mr. RANKIN. Well--you can testify the man that other people said was -Lee Oswald, that you pointed to before on Exhibit 203, would be the one -in between, would that be right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He has the same clothes as Lee. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, we offer in evidence Exhibit 203 as now -marked with the identification. - -(The document referred to was received, as indicated, as Commission -Exhibit No. 203.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any other reasons why you think that Officer -Tippit was not killed by your son Lee Oswald? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I do not. - -But, gentlemen, Mr. Mark Lane has affidavits. And we are investigating -this--if you will have his testimony. He has pertinent information to -this. I intend, when I finish here--I am going to be very quiet about -what happened here, with no comments. But when I finish here, I am -going on speaking tours. I am going to continue the investigation of -the shooting. This is for you. But I intend to continue as long as this -Commission is in session, to investigate, like we have been doing, we -have come up with some very---- - -The CHAIRMAN. Some very what? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Very important factors in this case. - -The CHAIRMAN. Well, I thought that is what you were here to tell us -about. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I am not the investigator. Mr. Lane is the investigator. -Mr. Lane is my son's attorney, representing my son. And he is -investigating the death of President Kennedy and the consequent murder -of my son. - -And he is making tours. And we have these reporters. And we have people -giving us their opinions. We have many, many letters from expert -riflemen. And I have in my possession--they also write to me--that have -gone through this particular instance, and say it cannot possibly be -done in that length of time and so on and so forth. We have a lot of -expert opinions. - -Mr. RANKIN. Are you willing to give those to the Commission? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, we want to. This is what I say is our American -way of life. This boy was shot down handcuffed, within a few hours -time, without trial or jury or counsel, even. He did not have a right -to defend himself. So Mr. Lane immediately started to defend this boy. -And people have come to our rescue. - -When I read Mr. Lane's brief, and I realized the truth of some of the -statements he said, I contacted Mr. Lane, as you know, and we tried to -come before the Commission. - -So from now on, when I am through with this Commission, I am going to -work with Mr. Lane in my own way--I am booked in New York on a tour -next week. And I am going to talk only about the investigation. - -We have help, sir. We have Mr. Laurence Ross, who is in New Zealand, -who writes articles--very good. And Captain Wooster, is an expert -rifleman of New Zealand. He does this all the time. He goes all over. - -I am not saying it correctly. - -But he is an expert. And he said that he himself could hardly do it. -And he practices all the time. That is his--that is what he does for a -living. He is an expert. - -And we have many, many such letters. I have 1,500 letters, sir. Mr. -Doyle has seen my letters and read a few. - -We have attorneys writing us. We have ministers. We have all types of -people that are not satisfied with this boy being charged with the -assassination of President Kennedy. And, of course, not satisfied -with the way he was shot down without trial. And we are going to -continue to investigate and fight this in our own way, when I leave the -Commission, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Do you have an agent for this tour, lecture tour you are -making? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. Mr. Lane has--well, I don't say booked -me, because that would not be the word. But I am supposed to appear -Monday at Town Hall in New York--no, Tuesday, the 18th. It is going -to be a forum. There are three very prominent men going to be on the -panel. And we are going to ask questions and talk. We will have our -public support by bringing these matters before the public, because -we are convinced--and there are millions of other people convinced, -also--that this is not as plain as it seems to be, that there is more -to it. And they are not satisfied. - -We are going to continue to investigate, with the help of the public. - -The CHAIRMAN. Are you to be compensated for these lectures? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. My trip is being paid to New York. And I am to live in -a home with a family. - -As far as that, I know nothing else about this. - -The CHAIRMAN. Who does know the details of it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, now, Mr. Lane would know the details. And maybe you -think I am being a very foolish woman. But here. When I read--because I -have been very cautious so let's say now I am not being cautious. But -here is why. When I read Mr. Lane's brief--and I don't know, gentlemen, -if you have read it--but I believe it would be pertinent to this -Commission to get a copy. It is written in the Guardian--two or three -briefs. And I was convinced this man had some pertinent ideas about it. -And when I engaged Mr. Lane, he said, "Mrs. Oswald, I will tell you -about myself." - -I said, "I do not want to hear. As far as I am concerned, you could be -a Communist. But to me a Communist is a human being. That is just his -way of life." - -We are Americans. We have Japanese people. That is their way of life. -A Communist, as long as he is not hurting our Government, that is his -right to be a Communist. That is his way of life. - -I did not want to know anything about Mr. Lane, because I knew Mr. Lane -wrote sensible things, that Mr. Lane was interested. And what he wrote -made sense. And that is all I am interested in, sir. - -If Mr. Lane is getting money, and I am appearing, that is just fine. I -am not interested. If I can get before the public and through Mr. Lane -doing it, I want to get before that public and state my American way of -life and try to prove my son is innocent. - -The main part of this is to try to prove Lee Harvey Oswald innocent. - -The CHAIRMAN. Very well. - -Mr. RANKIN. You said during your testimony that an agent showed you a -picture at the Six Flags Inn. Do you remember that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, and I am glad you brought that up, because I have -notes on this, too. I have something important to say about that. - -Mr. RANKIN. I will ask the reporter to mark this. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 237 for -identification.) - -Mrs. OSWALD. Before I see a picture, see--if it was in a square, cupped -in a hand, I believe it would be better for me for identification. That -is the way I saw it. It was cupped in his hand. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, all I have is Exhibit 237, in the shape it is -in. And I will hand it to you and ask you if you recall that as being -the picture that was shown to you. - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. This is not the picture shown me. The picture -that was shown me was a full face and just shoulders. This is not the -picture. - -This picture was about this size, very glossy black and white, with a -big face and shoulders. I have background here, a lot of white. But -this took the whole picture--the face and shoulders. And this door was -just ajar. And this man had this picture--and the two corners were cut. - -Mr. RANKIN. About what size is the picture you are looking at? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is about three by four--approximately three by four, -cupped in this man's hand, and the two corners were cut. The two top -corners. And a very glossy picture, black and white, with a big face -and shoulders. This is the picture shown me, sir. - -Now, at Six Flags Inn, about 3 days later, when I entered the room, -on the table were a lot of newspapers. I walked into the room in the -presence of my son, and all of the agents. As I stated before, Marina -and I knew nothing of what went on. We did not know how Lee was shot or -anything, because we did not sit down and watch television. - -Mr. RANKIN. What son are you talking about? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Robert. So this is approximately the Wednesday, the -25th--no--Sunday was the 24th. About the 26th--it was a few days after -Lee was shot, a couple of days. So I walked into the room, and I picked -this paper up and turned it over, and I exclaimed, "This is the picture -of the man that the FBI agent showed me." - -And one of the agents said, "Mrs. Oswald, that is the man that shot -your son." - -Believe me, gentlemen, I didn't even ask his name. And nothing more was -said. - -Now, that is very unusual. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, the picture that you are talking about that you picked -up, was a picture in the newspaper? - -Mrs. OSWALD. In the newspaper. The bottom part of the newspaper. I -can see that like I can see the picture. I had never seen the picture -before. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you later learn whose picture that was? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, when I returned to my home in Fort Worth, Tex., about -a week later, Mr. Blair Justice, of the Star Telegram, brought me all -the papers, that was the next time I saw the pictures and knew it was -Mr. Ruby. And it was a bottom page, and it was this picture shown me. - -Now, this is what I want to know. - -Mr. RANKIN. Tell us who was there when you said that, about the picture -in the paper? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Mike Howard, Mr. Garry Seals--well, all of the agents -there. The room was full. And Robert Oswald was there. The room was -full. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was Marina there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Marina was in the bedroom. Marina and I stayed in the -bedroom with the children. We could get snatches of the television and -so on. The children had diarrhea and so on. We were busy. - -As I picked the paper up and turned it over, it was on the back. This -picture I saw, the same picture. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether your son Lee Oswald knew Jack Ruby? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I have no way of knowing that. I just hope that -he did, if I am right. If Lee is an agent, I hope he knew Jack Ruby. - -Representative FORD. When you made that statement, after looking at the -newspaper, did you say it loudly enough for people in the room to hear -it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, because they answered me. They said, "That is -the picture of the man that shot your son." - -But nothing has been said since that. That is the part that I question -all about this. - -And then I am not asked to be subpenaed at Jack Ruby's trial or -anything. - -The FBI says yes, they showed me a picture, but that wasn't a picture -of Jack Ruby, not even giving me a chance. - -I don't understand. Something is not according to Hoyle. I keep telling -you gentlemen. - -Now, I can identify this picture, I believe, out of a hundred pictures. - -It was a black and white glossy picture of a big face and shoulders. -And why I express it--he had it cupped in his hand, and he poked his -arm and his hand with my bifocals, and all I could see was the picture -and the hand. I didn't even see Mr. Odum so much. That was that hand -poked in front of me. I am positive of this. Yet I am not asked any -more about the picture. They state, yes, they showed me a picture, but -not this picture. I am positive, gentlemen. - -Mr. RANKIN. I will ask you about a list of names and see if you know -any of them, or if your son, Lee Oswald, knew any of them, to your -knowledge. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I will be happy to answer. - -Mr. RANKIN. Karen Bennett, do you know that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I have inquired about this Karen Bennett. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you know her? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know whether I knew her or not. I have asked -several people to investigate this for me. - -Upon returning from the country on an OB case. I went to work for Royal -Clothiers, in Fort Worth, Tex., as an outside sales lady. In OB you -have to wait for the babies--and I needed to live. There was a young -lady there by the name of Carol, I called her. It could be Karen. -Looked very much like the young lady I saw on the television. That is -the first time I connected the two. Her father was one of the biggest -gangsters in Fort Worth, Tex. And he himself was killed by the gangland -of Fort Worth, Tex. - -Why I know that--the manager of this Royal Clothiers had remarked -who Karen's father was, and I said to him, "I don't appreciate your -broadcasting that. I think what her father did has nothing to do with -the girl. She is working. Give her a chance to her own life." - -I am always standing up and getting myself in trouble. I want you to -know that. Maybe I am not liked. But if that makes not being liked, I -will continue not being liked, sir. - -So this is when I first started to work. However, I found out that the -young lady also had another job at night, which is all right. She was -working as a barmaid in a tavern on Hemphill Street, in Fort Worth, -Tex., and she had two small children, and so if she worked at the -Royal Clothiers during the day, it was necessary that she work at this -saloon, or whatever you want to call it at night. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was she married? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, she was not married. That maybe is what she had to do -to support her children. And I understand, because I was left alone. - -But--she and I became involved in this way. In the front of the store -was a showcase with cheap jewelry. This is a credit place, rings, -diamond rings, and bracelets. And Carol had the key to this case, and -so did I. And there was some talk about a ring or something missing. I -realized right then and there I could not put myself in a position of -things being stolen, because here was a girl who they said her father -was a gangster, and she was working in a bar. And my son was a known -defector. So I quit that job. - -Now, on television for the Ruby trial here comes the girl. I thought -I recognized this girl. The name is Karen Bennett. And I called her -Carol, it could be Karen Bennett. I didn't have much to do with the -girl. So I immediately told this story to Mr. Jack Langueth of the New -York Times, and I told also to another Star Telegram reporter, Mr. John -McConnoch, because I wanted them to investigate. - -But I have not heard anything about it. - -Mr. RANKIN. How about Bruce Carlin? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. You don't know whether your son knew him? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I would not know anybody that my son knew. That I -am positive--because he never did tell me any of this. But continue. - -Mr. RANKIN. Robert Kermit Patterson, also known as Bobby Patterson? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Donald C. Stuart? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Charles Arndt? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. James A. Jackson? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, you know, a few of those names sound to me like they -might be on the back of both of these pictures. I am not sure. - -Mr. RANKIN. They are supposed to be associates or friends or people -that Mr. Ruby knew and associated with closely. - -Stanley or Katya Skotnicki? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Larry Crafard, or Crawford? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember that name? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I was trying to connect the name with a couple. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he ever spent any time in the Silver -Spur? - -Mrs. OSWALD. If Lee ever did? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I have had no knowledge of Lee for 1 year. None whatsoever. - -Mr. RANKIN. And before that do you know whether he spent any time in -the Silver Spur in Dallas? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. - -And before that, as to what I do know, that Lee did not drink and Lee -did not smoke, and Lee wasn't the type--not that he did not maybe go -into saloons--but from what I know of him, he did not go into places -like that of his own. If he was working he might have gone into these -places. - -Mr. RANKIN. These are the nightclubs Jack Ruby was associated with. You -recognize that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't. - -Mr. RANKIN. And the Vegas Club was another one. Do you know whether he -spent time there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I would have no way of knowing. - -Mr. RANKIN. And the Sovereign Club? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I have no way of knowing. I am going to say, again, Mr. -Lane would have ways of knowing about all these clubs and everything, -because that is his part of our investigation. I would like to get back -to Patrolman Tippit. - -Mr. RANKIN. All right. I just want to try to cover this book about Lee -Oswald's marksmanship. That has been marked Exhibit 238. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 238, for -identification.) - -Mr. RANKIN. It is a book that you brought here. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it was left in his sea bag, when he came home from -the Marine Corps. - -Mr. RANKIN. And that reads, "U.S. Marine Corps Score Book, Oswald, L. -H." - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is your son's? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. That is his platoon, 2060, that is the -one he got the trophy with. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were the various marks in that book in pencil that you see -there in the book when you first found it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have not touched the book. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is it in the same condition? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is the same condition that it was in his sea bag. - -Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 238, and ask leave to -substitute a copy. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be introduced. - -(The document heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit No. 238 was -received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, will you mark this 239? - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 239 for -identification and received in evidence.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald. I will ask you to glance through Exhibit 239 -and state whether or not that appears to be photostatic copy of---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is the photostatic copy---- - -Mr. RANKIN. Of Exhibit 238? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you will see it has the same markings. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. - -Mr. RANKIN. This is a copy we will substitute. - -Now, do you want to tell about the shooting of Officer Tippit? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I have many, many clippings--as I say, we have all -these people working. And we have come to the conclusion, and have -never seen where they had an autopsy on Patrolman Tippit or even his -gun or anything. In other words, Patrolman Tippit's life has been quiet -from the very beginning after the shooting. I have never seen anything -about him in print. And we question where all the money that has been -given to Mrs. Tippit has come from. That is a tremendous amount of -money--tremendous for donations. - -The CHAIRMAN. You say you question the money? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir; the donations to Mrs. Tippit. - -The CHAIRMAN. You mean you question whether she received them or not? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No--where is the money coming from? As far as she knows, -sir, they are donations. But where is the actual money coming from, -because it is such a large amount? Like I question Marina's money. She -has now $38,000. That is just what they have stated she has. What she -has may be more. But that is a lot of money for donations, a tremendous -lot of money. - -And Mrs. Tippit has, I think, almost half a million dollars. Is that -correct? I am not quite sure. But, anyhow, it is a large amount of -money. And with our investigation and things that are not according to -Hoyle, we do question where the money is coming from. - -The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any idea where it comes from, after your -investigation? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, Mr. Lane has. I do not have all the information. -He has this information. And we are still investigating it, sir. And -we will investigate if it takes another year or two. We are going to -continue to arrive at the truth. - -Mr. RANKIN. You referred to an article in the Time Magazine of February -14, 1964, volume 83, No. 7, when you said there were some things that -were wrong in it--do you remember that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you write a letter about this assassination of -President Kennedy to President Johnson at some time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I never have. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you send a telegram? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. The only telegram I sent to President Johnson was -stating that I had sent a telegram to you and Chief Justice Warren, if -you remember. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you get any response from the White House? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not get a response from the White House. -And I am indignant at the response that I did get. What it did was -to inform me, I was so graciously treated by Mr. Kennedy and his -Administration, as I have stated and testified, that I am shocked that -I am now to be told that I am not to worry the President. "In response -to your telegram to the President, I wish to inform you that any -requests or any information dealing with the inquiry conducted by Chief -Justice Warren should properly be directed to the Commission. I note in -your telegram that you have directed your request to the Chief Justice -and to Mr. Rankin, the Commission's General Counsel. Sincerely, Lee C. -White, Assistant Special Counsel to the President." - -Mr. RANKIN. That is the response that you received from the White House? - -Mrs. OSWALD. From the telegram that I sent, when I sent a telegram to -you and Chief Justice Warren--I sent him a telegram. I have it right -here, sir. You don't know about the telegram. - -Here is a copy of the telegram. - -"President Lyndon B. Johnson. I have sent night letters to Chief -Justice Earl Warren and J. Lee Rankin imploring both in the name of -justice and our American way of life to let my son Lee Harvey Oswald be -represented by counsel so that all witnesses including my son's widow -will be cross-examined. Respectfully yours, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald." - -And this is the response to that. And I don't think that is a gracious -response at all. If I want to write the President or send him a -telegram, I think I have as much right as anyone else to do so. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you comment on the fact of this response from the White -House when you received it to anybody? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. There was a reporter from Time Magazine that I -commented to, because I was indignant, as I said. And he said, "Well, -if you or your next door neighbor or anybody walking in the street -wanted to write the President, that is our American way of life." And I -agreed with him. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, you are quoted in this article as saying "Why, I have -got as much right as any citizen to write the President of the United -States, to petition him, and let me tell you this, Mr. Johnson should -also remember that I am not just anyone, and that he is only President -of the United States by the grace of my son's action." Is that a -correct quote? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, that is not a correct quote. And that is why I was -indignant yesterday when I read that. And there is more discrepancies. - -I did tell him about receiving the letter, and I had just received -it--that I was indignant they should write and as much intimate that I -should not write the President. - -I made a special appeal to the President. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what you did say? Did you say anything like -this? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. There was nothing said to this reporter about -President Johnson--because I believe my son is innocent. So if I say -that, then I would be saying that my son is guilty. And that is why the -President is now the President. No, sir. I did not say that. - -Mr. RANKIN. What reporter for Time Magazine was that that you were -talking to? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I can find out the name for you, or I can think about it. -Let's see. I think the name is Sullivan. I did not want to think--but I -think it is Sullivan. Do you have that information? - -Mr. RANKIN. No. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I will get it for you, or maybe it will come to me. - -Mr. RANKIN. All right. - -Mrs. OSWALD. But I do know, because I was paid for the picture--one of -the pictures in that magazine. - -Mr. RANKIN. We would appreciate your telling us as accurately as you -can. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I want to give you any and every information I can. - -The CHAIRMAN. Did the man who interviewed you in this matter also pay -for the picture--the same man? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes sir--for the Time Magazine. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he pay you for any part of the story? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No sir. No, I am wrong there, he did. He paid me for part -of the story. That is not the story. - -This isn't the story that was supposed to have come out. It was a much -nicer and softer story. But we have found out that when we give these -press notices, that they don't come out the way you give them. And they -explain--like if I was to tell Mr. Sullivan, "I am disappointed in -your story"--"Well, Mrs. Oswald, our editor edits to make room," and -so on. That is what you get. I was disappointed in the story, because -the story was that I felt so sorry for Marina, to think that she had to -go through the rest of her life thinking in her mind that her husband -was the killer of President Kennedy, and that she would have to tell -her children that she had gone down in history, that their father was -the killer of President Kennedy. And I went on with a long story. I -said--they said "Marina had stringy hair, and she didn't have this or -that." Let me tell you, I would rather have Marina with the stringy -hair and less clothes, but thinking that her husband was innocent, like -she thought the 3 days I was there--rather than the picture now, where -she smokes, she no longer nurses her baby, she left her baby in Texas -to come to the Warren Commission, which is not the Marina I know. - -"Marina, Mama, no, no, she never left her children." And well groomed. -But she thinks now her husband shot President Kennedy. What an awful -thing. I would much rather have no money and stringy hair and be the -girl I was before, and believe my husband was innocent. - -The CHAIRMAN. How much did Life pay you for your story? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Is that pertinent? - -The CHAIRMAN. Or Time, rather. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Is that pertinent to the Commission, or is that my -personal? - -Mr. DOYLE. I don't think the Chief Justice--he has simply asked you -a question. If you wish to answer the question that is fine. If you -don't, if you tell the Chief Justice you don't wish to answer the -question---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, it doesn't have any bearing. I think the amount I -got would be immaterial to the Commission. I don't know. - -The CHAIRMAN. Well. I think it might be material under some -circumstances. But if she doesn't wish to tell us, that is all right. - -Mrs. OSWALD. It is not--just like the pictures. I want you to have the -pictures. And you didn't seem to think they were important enough. - -I am asking if this is important to the Commission, because that is my -personal life. It is no crime to sell the pictures. I have no job or -income. If I want to sell a picture to a magazine or a newspaper, and -protect myself financially, I am going to continue to do that. - -Mr. DOYLE. The Commission has stated to you that it would be interested -in knowing, that it feels it might be of some value to them. But if you -do not wish to say anything about it, they would not press you. - -So again, it would be completely up to you. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think that would probably, like these pictures, be my -personal---- - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn about the attempt of your son to shoot -General Walker? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I am delighted you asked me that question. I have these -notes here, and didn't go through that. - -The first time I knew about General Walker was through the paper. - -Now, I became indignant. I do not remember the quotes. But why I became -indignant, was that I had Lee's handwriting in Russian. But no one came -to me to find out about this note. That is the part, gentlemen, that is -so peculiar about this whole thing. - -I understand through reporters that the note was shown to Mrs. Ruth -Paine, and wanted to know if the handwriting was Lee's handwriting. But -no one has come to find out if I had any handwriting of Lee in Russian, -which I have. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you think this was in Russian? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I am under the impression that the note was in -Russian. It stated in the paper. - -Mr. RANKIN. When did you learn about the Walker incident? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Through the newspaper. And it has been changed, the story, -now. If I can remember. Now, I will get this for you. I have a friend -that has one of the most complete scrapbooks in the United States, that -helps in this investigation. And I can get all these articles, sir. And -I will help in every way possible. - -If I remember correctly, it was stated that Marina found this note in -the room that says "I may be arrested, and if so get in touch with the -Russian consul" and told her where to go to the jailhouse. I wish I -knew the exact quote. So we are getting back to an agent now. - -From what I remember in the beginning, he did not say in the note that -he was going to kill General Walker--that he would be involved in -something that might cause him to be arrested and so on. I remember -this. That was in the very beginning, sir. It came out in Fort Worth, -Tex. - -So he is going to be involved in something. That doesn't mean he is -going to shoot General Walker. - -Mr. RANKIN. When did you learn that he did try to shoot General Walker? - -Mrs. OSWALD. As the story started to leak out from the paper, what we -call leaks. I have to say this, because we are investigating this. I -am not the main investigator. But I talk to people. They call, and I -get letters from them. Every now and then Mr. Jim Martin, who is the -business manager for Marina, would quote Marina--not Marina, but he -would quote Marina about General Walker, quoted her about thinking in -her mind that her husband had killed the President. - -And I was firing back through the newspapers and saying Mr. Jim Martin -was an American citizen, and I didn't appreciate him quoting my -daughter-in-law about these things, because they are of no advantage. -How can they prove that Lee had killed General Walker, because now -maybe they would not have the bullets--and so on. It happened before. - -Mr. RANKIN. You knew that he was not killed. - -Mrs. OSWALD. What good would it be for Mr. Martin to make a statement -like this that Marina said, and publicize it, when they possibly could -not now prove that Lee had anything to do with it, gun or bullets or -anything. I could not see his purpose in doing this--which has hurt my -daughter-in-law very much. I have many letters from people expressing -their opinion that they did not appreciate her coming out with these -remarks. But it is Mr. Jim Martin. - -Marina is a foreign girl, and doesn't know what these people are doing -to her, Mr. Rankin. I have publicly fought this over and over--if -you have my quotes from the Fort Worth Star Telegram and so on, and -probably the New York papers. I deeply feel sorry for Marina. Marina is -a Russian girl. Maybe if her husband was picked up to be a murderer, -maybe they would shoot him in Russia. I don't know. - -But here we have an American way of life that Marina is not familiar -with. - -Mr. RANKIN. Don't you want her to tell the truth about it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I want Marina to tell the truth just like I want to tell -the truth. But from my testimony here, I have found out that Marina has -lied. - -Mr. RANKIN. What have you found out about the Walker incident? Have you -found anything about that was untrue that Marina said? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That Marina said it? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I have not heard Marina say it. I have not heard Marina -say it. I can answer this way. This comes from Mr. Jim Martin. There -is many, many things about Mr. Jim Martin and Mr. Thorne that I don't -think maybe it is right that I should say these things in front of the -Commission, because they are rumors. - -But a rumor, you will have to, in a case as big as this, and where -there are so many people involved, you have to analyze these rumors. I -will say this: I understand from many, many a source that the Dallas -Bar Association is going to have Mr. Jim Thorne before them. Now that -is my understanding there. - -Mr. RANKIN. So all you know about the Walker incident is what you have -read in the papers. - -Mrs. OSWALD. What I have read in the paper. And I certainly did not -appreciate that. Mr. Jim Martin is a citizen, if Marina is not. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, did you ever ask your son, Lee Oswald, whether he was -an agent of anybody? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No sir, I have never asked Lee Oswald if he was an agent -because I felt like he would not tell me. - -Mr. RANKIN. But you have not asked him. - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I have not asked him. - -Oh, one very important thing that I must tell you. On November 26--that -was the night of November 26, and the day of November 26 was when I -found out that Marina was going to live with someone else, and we -had no contact. So I knew I wasn't wanted or involved. I was in the -bedroom. And I left the Inn of the Six Flags, gentlemen, under strict -security protection. I opened the door and had my coat and pocketbook, -and I went out doors. And I was about 15 feet when they realized that -I had left the Inn. Now, there was a man on the outside, stationed -there night and day. But there was a little arbor. And this was in -the bedroom. We had two entrances--one to the living room and one to -the bedroom. I opened the bedroom door. I had my coat and bag and I -was going to go home. I was going to take a bus and go home because I -didn't get to talk to my daughter-in-law--they had taken over. - -And I was 15 or 20 feet when two agents came and took me by the arm -and I went back in. I didn't make a stink or anything about it. And -that night I sat up all night, and the next morning I insisted upon -going home. But the point that has to be made is was I under arrest or -not--since these men came and took me by the arm and brought me back to -the Inn of the Six Flags. - -The CHAIRMAN. Were you all dressed to go home when they took hold of -you that way? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, when they took hold of me this way. And I didn't -say anything. I just went back in. So then the doctor--I do not know -his name, you have his name--the doctor came in to see the children, -they had diarrhea. And the man whispered something to the doctor. And -we closed the door. The doctor asked me for Lee's social security -number. And I have testified that I had gone home the night before to -get all my papers, after much persuasion. I started to look through the -papers for Lee's number. And I started to cry. He and I were in the -room alone. I think this was purposely, because they said something to -the doctor. - -I said I am very upset and told the doctor what happened. And I said -"You know, my heart is breaking. I cannot understand how they would do -something like that, and not tell me about it." - -So he talked with me, and he gave me two pills. When we opened the -door he said to the agents "She is all right, she has a right to her -feelings." So they must have thought that I was--something was wrong -with me. They thought--because I took the attitude immediately--well, -Robert said it--I said "Why didn't you let me know." "Well, just -because the way you are acting now." I said "How am I acting. I -am acting in a normal way. I have lost my son. Now you have made -arrangements without consulting me to take my daughter and two -grandchildren to live with strangers. This is a normal reaction. Am I -going to say yes, take my daughter-in-law and grandchildren, I don't -need my part of them." - -This is a normal reaction. - -Reverend Saunders, Louis Saunders, who is a minister at the grave, -accidentally came at the very last minute. He had not preached a sermon -in 8 years. He is head of the Council of Churches. - -He heard we could not get a minister so he was able to come at the very -last minute. And Rev. Granville Walker was sent to my home in Fort -Worth, Tex., the next day after I arrived home, to help, to console me -about this case. So he said "Mrs. Oswald, I understand that Marina has -been offered a very fine home, and how do you feel about that. Are you -not glad that your daughter-in-law is going to be taken care of and the -children have an education." - -I said "No, Reverend Saunders, I do not feel that way about it. Those -are material things. How do we know if these children will live to -derive any benefit from this education. I think that we should stick -together as a family. Her Mama, like she wanted. The girl said she has -no Mama. Everything was arranged for the Mama. She is talking about -money and material things. I expressed my opinion at the Six Flags, -that we start with $863--no contributions were coming in. And then if -we cannot make it, then let the ones that are so concerned help us. And -I remarked--I am working for a very wealthy woman. - -Who knows, maybe she will give us $5,000. Let us stick together as a -family. Reverend Saunders says "Mrs. Oswald, your philosophy of life -is beautiful, and it is a Biblical way. But you know you have to be -practical." - -So the very next day, sir--and this is in "Christianity Today," to -prove my point--Mr. Jim Cox, who writes for "Christianity Today" and -is a Star Telegram reporter called me and said "Mrs. Oswald, Reverend -Saunders called me and wanted me to get a story from you, because he -thought you had such a wonderful philosophy of life." - -I sat down, and Mr. Jimmy Cox stayed home from Church--I gave Mr. Jimmy -Cox a story that is in Christianity Today, that only goes to ministers, -and it is because of Reverend Saunders. So I do have people to testify -about this particular thing. And I did act in a normal way. That is a -normal reaction, to not want to give up my family. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald. I will give you Exhibits 206 through 227, both -inclusive, and ask you if that is--if those are photostatic copies of -your correspondence--would you look at each one of them--with the State -Department that you have referred to in your testimony? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Do you want the numbers as I go along? - -Mr. RANKIN. No. You just look at them. - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Representative FORD. These are copies, Mr. Rankin, of her letters to -the State Department and the responses? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes, that is correct, is it not, Mrs. Oswald? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is correct. - -Mr. RANKIN. And these copies were made under your supervision were they -not. - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. And I voluntarily gave you every copy I -have. That is correct. That is correct. That is correct. - -Some of this seems to be scratched out here. - -Mr. DOYLE. On Exhibit No. 221, there seems to be some X markings -around. Will you put that aside, and we can compare that with the -original. - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is correct. That is correct. That is correct. I -don't remember writing to Mrs. James. I remember calling her on the -telephone. This is my handwriting. I guess I did. - -Yes, that is my handwriting. That is correct. - -That is correct. That is correct. And this is correct, but should have -a card with it. - -Mr. DOYLE. You are referring to 227? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. And it should have with it a card, a postcard, from -Lee. - -Mr. DOYLE. Set 227 aside with 221. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you have a copy of 221? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you please check to see that is a correct copy. - -Mr. Chairman, I think that we might gain time now if we would check -these exhibits out with Mrs. Oswald, and be able to offer them at -whatever time we reconvene. That is all we propose to do now. - -The CHAIRMAN. All right. - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is the card that should have gone with that. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, were you able to find your copy of Exhibit -221, and compare it and see whether that which is marked on is on your -copy? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No sir, we have not found that yet. - -"Yours 11th" is scratched out. - -Mr. RANKIN. So that 221 is correct, but apparently there are some -errors---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. There are more errors, too. Because it doesn't say -"Services Department of State." - -Mr. DOYLE. 221 does not appear to be a photostat of the exhibit. - -Mr. RANKIN. But it does have exactly the same material on it, doesn't -it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It doesn't have this--"collect." I would not say it was an -exact copy. - -Mr. DOYLE. It appears to have substantially the information on it. It -is not a photostat of it. - -Mr. RANKIN. I might advise you, Mrs. Oswald, this is from the State -Department's file, from which the telegram was made up that was sent to -you. - -Mr. DOYLE. It is not a photostat, but it does have substantially the -information that is set forth in the telegram itself. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, you have examined all of the exhibits, 206 through -227, both inclusive, and found them, except for what you and your -counsel said about exhibit 221, and the card that was with 227, to be -correct. - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibits 206 through 227, both -inclusive. - -The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted. - -(Commission Exhibit Nos. 206 through 227, heretofore marked for -identification, were received in evidence.) - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is the card that goes with this letter, as an -explanation. - -(The card referred to was marked Exhibit No. 240 for identification.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 240 is the card you have just referred to that goes -with Exhibit 227, is that right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 240, and ask that a copy be -substituted. - -The CHAIRMAN. That may be admitted. - -(The card referred to was received in evidence as Commission Exhibit -No. 240.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, would you examine exhibits 228 through -236, both inclusive? And tell us whether or not those appear to be -photostatic copies of correspondence about the Albert Schweitzer -College and application? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is right. That is right. This is correct. That -is right. That is right. That is right. That is right. That is right. -That is right. That is right. That is right. That is right. - -Those are all right, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. You have just finished comparing Exhibits 228 through 236 -both inclusive, and found them to be correct photostatic copies of your -files concerning the Albert Schweitzer matter? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is right. - -Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence, Exhibits 228 through 236 both -inclusive. - -The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted. - -(The photostatic copies referred to were received in evidence as -Commission Exhibit Nos. 228 through 236, inclusive.) - -The CHAIRMAN. Have you introduced all the records you have now? - -Mr. RANKIN. Just a few more, Mr. Chairman. - -(The document referred to was marked 241 for identification.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I hand you Exhibit 241 and ask you if that is -one of the letters that you referred to in your testimony? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is right. - -Mr. RANKIN. And it is one that you received? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It is one that I received in a letter from Russia, from -Lee. And you have the letter, telling me to go to the International -Rescue Committee, and to show the papers to the Red Cross in Vernon. -This is the letter inclosed in that letter. - -Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 241, and ask leave to -substitute a copy. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -(The letter referred to was received in evidence as Commission Exhibit -No. 241.) - -(Documents marked 242 and 243 for identification.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Exhibits 242 and 243 are the telegram and the letter you -received back from your transmission to the White House that you have -testified about this morning, is that right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is right. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you say you would like to have the originals back? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibits 242 and 243 and ask leave to -substitute copies. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted on that condition. - -(Commission Exhibits Nos. 242 and 243 were admitted in evidence.) - -The CHAIRMAN. Are all the records identified now and admitted, Mr. -Rankin? - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, we have one further matter, and that is some -correspondence that involves her son's communications with the Embassy, -which correspondence was examined in the presence of Mr. Mark Lane when -we were taking photostatic copies. And during that examination, Mrs. -Oswald was able to identify the handwriting on part of them, and not -able to identify it on another part. Is that right, Mrs. Oswald? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is right; yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. And we think we should probably, to cover that matter, ask -her briefly to point those out. - -The CHAIRMAN. Very well. Let's get that done before we adjourn, and -then we will adjourn for lunch. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, I will ask you to mark these exhibits, which -are the ones that I understand Mrs. Oswald was able to identify the -handwriting on. - -(Documents were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 244 through 250 for -identification.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, will you examine Exhibits 244 through 250, -both inclusive, and tell us whether or not those are photostatic copies -of communications of your son that you recognize the handwriting on of -the originals? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DOYLE. If you do not on any one of them, announce the number. - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is one I would believe that I have stated--if he -wrote it, he wrote it very careful. It is not scribbled like he usually -does. - -Mr. DOYLE. That is 246. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell whether or not that is his signature on the -second page of Exhibit 246? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It is just a little different. That could be forged. Just -a little difference. We write left handed, and we have a trend. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is that one that you said before that you thought you could -recognize? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know, sir. I have no way of knowing. How would I -know? - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recognize the handwriting now? - -Mrs. OSWALD. As I have stated before, when I am looking at it, it -doesn't appear to be immediately as Lee's handwriting. But it could -be something that he has recopied over and over to get such a perfect -lettering. It is not scribbled like we usually scribble. Now, this was -one also that I would say---- - -Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 247. - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is scribbled. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is more scribbled, you say? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It is not quite as his ordinary writing. It is a little -more thoughtfully written. - -Mr. RANKIN. You think it is his, though? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I would say this is his. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Now, this is thoughtfully written, too, yet it is his. - -Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 248. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I am looking at this handwriting, because the rest of it -is printed. I do not know too much about Lee's printing. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell about the handwriting? - -Mrs. OSWALD. The signature looks like Lee's signature. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I will state again this looks like Lee's handwriting, but -very thoughtfully written. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 249. Is that right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is right. And this is Lee's signature. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 250 that you just referred to? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Now, I would say it is all Lee's handwriting, -but very thoughtfully written. - -Mr. RANKIN. Thank you. We offer in evidence Exhibits 244 through 250, -both inclusive. - -The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted. - -(The documents referred to were received in evidence as Commission -Exhibits Nos. 244 through 250, inclusive.) - -(A group of documents was then marked 251 through 258 for -identification.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I will hand you Exhibits 251 through 257, -both inclusive, and ask you to examine those, and state whether you -recognize the handwriting. - -Mrs. OSWALD. That doesn't look too much like Lee's handwriting. It -could be a finer pen and more thoughtfully written. But I cannot -identify this as Lee's handwriting. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell about the signature? - -Mrs. OSWALD. The signature looks a little like Lee's signature. - -Mr. DOYLE. You refer to 251, when you are discussing this? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, 251. - -Now, this one I would say was not Lee's handwriting. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is 252? - -Mrs. OSWALD. 252. - -I have never known Lee to sign Lee Harvey Oswald. He always signed Lee -H. There again, that could be Lee's handwriting with a fine pen. But -very thoughtfully written. But I will say it is not Lee's. I don't -think it is. I cannot be positive. But I do not think it is Lee's -handwriting. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 252 that you have been referring to? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Exhibit 252. - -Here is another of the same caliber. It is too perfect. The writing is -too perfect. - -Mr. RANKIN. What about the signature? - -Mrs. OSWALD. The signature looks like Lee's signature. - -Mr. DOYLE. That is 253. - -Mrs. OSWALD. 253. Yes, sir. This is a little different signature, I -would say, than his normal signature. - -Mr. RANKIN. 254? - -Mrs. OSWALD. 254, yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. You think that Exhibit 254 is your son's handwriting or not? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I would have to say with reservations again. It would have -to be rewritten very thoroughly. It is not scribbled enough. - -Mr. RANKIN. You think that those letters, 251 through 254, are too -carefully done for your son Lee? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And if he did do them, he would have to have -four or five copies to do it so perfect. - -This is a little more scribbled. This signature looks more like Lee's -than the other did. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is 255? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. 255. - -This looks like Lee's handwriting--a lot of misspelling, and his -signature. 256. - -Now his Russian handwriting I know only from return addresses. However, -I do have two brown papers with Russian writing on, from gifts that -were sent to me. But I don't know if Lee addressed them or not. - -And this is Lee's handwriting with a very fine pen. Isn't this -handwriting backwards for a left hand? It seems when I looked at "my," -it should be going this way--because I write like Lee, left handed. - -Mr. RANKIN. When you refer to this--or asked whether it was backwards, -you were referring to Exhibit 257, were you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. This "m" should be going this way--which it is -really. But it is kind of hard to testify to. I would say this is Lee's -handwriting with a very fine pen, with reservations. - -Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 257. - -We offer in evidence Exhibits 251 through 257, both inclusive. - -The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted. - -(The documents referred to were received in evidence as Commission -Exhibits Nos. 251 through 257, inclusive.) - -The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, are you now ready--we are not going to ask -you to do it right now, but we are going to recess at 2 o'clock. But -are we now at the point where we can hear whatever you want to tell us -about your life? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I am sorry, but I would like to have lunch. - -The CHAIRMAN. I said that we were going to have lunch. But when we -return--you have things up to that point of your story? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Very well. - -You have another question you want to ask before we recess for lunch? - -Mr. RANKIN. I should like to offer for the limited purpose, Mr. -Chairman, of the fact that we presented this picture to Mrs. Oswald and -she said it was not the picture that was presented to her--for that -limited purpose I should like to offer Exhibit 237. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be so admitted. - -(The picture referred to was received in evidence as Commission Exhibit -No. 237.) - -Mr. DOYLE. Mr. Chief Justice, during the noon hour may I have the -custody of this transcript of a tape recording of an interview with -Mrs. Oswald, the 28 pages which was tendered to us by Mr. Rankin this -morning--and I will return it. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is for them to have. - -The CHAIRMAN. That is to become your own. - -Mr. DOYLE. To become the property of Mrs. Oswald. - -The CHAIRMAN. The property of Mrs. Oswald, yes. That is what we gave it -to you for. She requested that. - -Mr. DOYLE. Thank you very much. - -The CHAIRMAN. Very well, we will recess now until 2 o'clock. - -(Whereupon, at 12:55 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -Afternoon Session - -TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD RESUMED - - -The President's Commission reconvened at 2:05 p.m. - -The CHAIRMAN. All right, Mr. Rankin, will you proceed with the hearing? - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, you said that you would like to turn now to -telling us about your life. We would appreciate that if you would do -that. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, if you would prefer not to tell the story of -your life, that is perfectly all right. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I want to tell the story but there is something else that -upsets me. - -The CHAIRMAN. It is perfectly all right if you don't wish to. You may -take your time now and go right ahead. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I am sorry, you will have to excuse me about the story of -my life, and Mr. Doyle knows why, but there is one part of the story of -my life that will have a great connection with this, I believe. - -I married Mr. Edwin Ekdahl who was an electrical engineer and a $10,000 -a year man with an expense account. Mr. Ekdahl had a woman before he -married me. Of course, I didn't know about it, sir. I made him wait a -year before I married him, but the way I found this out, I received a -telephone call, a telegram rather, he traveled--lots of times Lee and I -traveled with him--stating he wouldn't return home when he was supposed -to and for me not to meet him. - -So, I called his office, I was familiar with, knew his secretary, and I -was going to tell her that Mr. Ekdahl would be delayed 3 or 4 days. But -immediately she said, "Mrs. Ekdahl, Mr. Ekdahl is not in, he has gone -out to lunch." - -So, I said, the general conversation went "When will he be back" and so -on, and so that evening I took the car and I went to the Texas Electric -Co., works for the Texaco, the main office in New York, but he was -working in Fort Worth at the time, went to the building and saw him -leave the building and I followed him and to an apartment house, saw -him go into this apartment house. - -Then I went back home, and my oldest son, John Edward Pic, who is in -the service, had a friend at the house who was about 2 years older. I -told them about what happened. So it was night by this time. The kids -went with me. - -I called Mr. John McClain, who is an attorney, and we live next door -to Mr. McClain, and told him that I had seen Mr. Ekdahl go into a home -when he was supposed to be out of town and what should I do. - -He said, "Mrs. Oswald, just ring the phone. Do you know the woman?" - -And I said, "Yes." - -"Just ring the phone and let him know that you know he is there, that -you saw him." - -After I thought about it I thought that is not a good idea because he -could leave and say he was just there on business and I wanted to catch -him there. - -So the kids and I planned that we would say she had a telegram, so we -went up the stairs, I believe it was the second or the third floor, -and the young man knocked on the door and said, "Telegram for Mrs. -Clary"--was her name. - -She said, "Please push it under the door" and I told him no; he said, -"No, you have to sign for it." - -So with that she opened the door to sign for it and with that I, my -son, and with the other young man walked into the room and Mrs. Clary -had on a negligee, and my husband had his sleeves rolled up and his tie -off sitting on a sofa, and he said, "Marguerite, Marguerite, you have -everything wrong, you have everything wrong." - -He says, "Listen to me." - -I said, "I don't want to hear one thing. I have seen everything I want -to see, this is it." - -My two boys, in military school, the two older boys, I am paying for -the two older boys because I have sold a piece of property. I wanted to -take care as long as I had money of my own children and when I married -Mr. Ekdahl if he would support me and Lee I would be able to take care -of John Edward, and Robert in military school, we couldn't have them -with us because Mr. Ekdahl traveled. - -This man never let me share with his insurance policies, beneficiary, -in other words, I was another woman to him. I received $100 a month and -that was it. That was all the money I had from Mr. Ekdahl, and when -we traveled, for instance, we were in Santa Fe, N. Mex., and he was -with all the businessmen, we would have to wait until Mr. Ekdahl got -through, the baby and I, in order to eat, whether it was 2 or 3 o'clock -in the evening because here I was, registered under Mrs. Ekdahl and I -had a checking account, but under the name of Oswald, which was the -money I was using for the children so it was kind of inconvenient for -me to write a check under the name of Oswald. - -I am trying to point out the kind of man he was. - -I had a nice living in this sense. We lived in the finest hotels and -we had the finest food because all of this was charged to his expense -account but he gave me nothing but this $100. That was a standard thing -and he expected me to account for every cent of the hundred dollars -that I spent, which I refused to do. - -So, we argued naturally, because this is not a marriage. Any man who -marries a woman naturally shares, she shares in his bank account and in -his insurance and so on and so forth. - -I wanted to divorce Mr. Ekdahl naturally but my two boys as I have -stated before were in the military school, and I wanted to wait until -the end of the season, the school season. - -So, Lee and I went to Covington, La., and I picked the boys up at -military school because this was summer time--rather I wasn't back to -him. - -I left him and went back to him. But this particular time I picked the -boys up at military school and we spent the summer in Covington, La., -and by the way, I forgot to say that Lee had a beautiful voice and sang -beautifully at age 6 in Covington, La., he sang a solo in the church, -Silent Night, and that can be verified. This is a very small town and -the only Lutheran Church there. - -So, Mr. Ekdahl came to Covington, La., and I went back again to Mr. -Ekdahl. But this time I went back to him I hadn't found out about the -woman. I got excited. Then I found out about the woman, he rented a -place on 8th Avenue, a home. - -And after I was there about a day I was in the yard hanging out some -things and it was in the apartment house downstairs and a woman came -along and I said, "How are you? I am Mrs. Ekdahl." - -She looked astonished, and after I had made friends with her she -informed me Mr. Ekdahl had a woman in this particular house while I was -in Covington and she thought she was his wife but now I am the wife -come. - -Then I found out about the woman and we went to her apartment and -caught her there. This is the end of the season by this time. - -In the meantime Mr. Ekdahl filed suit for divorce from me. I thought -I was sitting pretty. He didn't have anything on me. I had him for -adultery with witnesses and everything and I didn't have an idea that -he could sue me for a divorce, but Mr. Ekdahl did sue me for a divorce, -and Mr. Ekdahl got the divorce. It was a jury case, and Mr. John -McClain, was my attorney, the man I told you that I called to find out -what to do. - -Now, Mr. Fred Korth represented Mr. Ekdahl and when I walked into the -courtroom, gentlemen, there were witnesses there that I had never seen -before. - -A Mr. George Levine, who is a very big businessman and who Mr. Ekdahl -was representing in Fort Worth for the electrical part of his plant. I -knew him this way. - -One time we went to the circus with his wife, my husband, myself and -Lee, before going to the circus we had dinner. Now, understand we are -having dinner in a public place. From the dinner we go to the circus, -we are in a public place and I want you to know that it is the only -time I had seen Mr. George Levine, when Mr. George Levine rushed from -work in his khaki pants and got on the witness stand swore how I nagged -Mr. Ekdahl and how I threw bottles at him and so on and so forth. - -There were other witnesses that I had never seen, sir, who swore how I -nagged Mr. Ekdahl, and Mr. Ekdahl got his divorce from me. - -Now, 2 days after the assassination, after Lee's death, while I am at -Six Flags it comes over the radio that Mr. Korth knew the family, this -happened in 1948, sir, then Mr. Korth knew the family, and that he had -represented Mr. Ekdahl in divorce proceedings and, of course, talked -to the reporters where they got the information that I hit him with a -bottle and so on and so forth. - -Now, that is my story there. I am not even guilty of that divorce, as -you see. This can be proved by my son John Edward Pic because he was a -witness, sir. - -I do not think I am going--I am not going to speculate but give my -thoughts to anyone who would immediately make a statement that he had -represented the mother of the accused assassin as an attorney years -ago, and that I nagged Mr. Ekdahl and so on and so forth. - -That was publicly announced about 2 days after my son was shot, sir. - -Now, the name then, of course, he probably knew the name Oswald, but -the name then was Ekdahl that I would say would stick in his mind more. - -I will try to get to the very beginning of my life, Chief Justice. - -The CHAIRMAN. Any time. Just take your time. - -Mrs. OSWALD. My mother died when I was quite young and my father raised -us with housekeepers. My aunt lived in the neighborhood and I had a -lot of cousins and a lot of aunts. My father was French, his name was -Claverie, and my mother was German, the name is Stucke. All of my -father's folks spoke French and my father spoke French to his sisters. -I was a child of one parent, and yet I have had a normal life, a very -hard normal life that I had been able to combat all by myself, sir, -without much help from anyone. - -I am saying that in reference to Lee being alone; there have been so -many psychiatrists saying he was by himself and he had a father image -and that is why he did the shooting. There are many, many children with -one parent who are perfectly normal children and I happen to be one -myself. - -I had a very happy childhood. I sang. I sang from the kindergarten at -grammar school, and all through grammar school I was the lead singer. -I was one of the most popular young ladies in the school. I also play -piano by ear. I don't know a note. I used to play the marching school -song for the school children. - -At my grammar school graduation I had the honor of wearing a pink dress -instead of a white dress and sang the song "Little Pink Roses." So I -had a very happy childhood and a very full childhood. I played the -piano. We had house parties in those days and a lot of gatherings and -it was everything Marguerite--and I also played a ukulele, so I have a -very full happy childhood. - -At the age of 17, I am ahead of my story--I have had 1 year high school -education. I know that on my applications I had that I had completed -high school but that is almost necessary to get a job. - -But I had 1 year of high school education is all that I had, sir. - -I then went to work at age 17, not quite 17, for one of the biggest -corporation lawyers in New Orleans, La. The name then was DuFour, -Rosen, Wolff, and Kammer. Mr. DuFour died while I was there and Mr. -Kammer, I believe, is still living but they were corporation attorneys -for that firm plus 4 or 5 other attorneys that handled divorce cases -and similar cases and I was receptionist in the outer office. - -So, everybody who came into the office had to state their business to -me, because the attorneys were very busy, and if it was a particular -case I had to know who to refer the party to this particular man. - -So, naturally, I got a very large education, let's say, by doing -this, and the mayor and everybody in the town, these are the largest -attorneys, corporation attorneys in New Orleans, sir, and they were -attorneys representing the New Orleans Public Service and big things -of that sort, and the mayor and all used to call me the boss. When the -mayor came in he had an appointment but I still had to ring the phone -to see if the men were ready to see him. So they called me the boss. - -I was also a maid in one of the carnival balls. I am a very poor young -lady but a very, let's say, popular young lady. - -My early childhood. We lived on the Phillips Street in New Orleans -which was a very poor neighborhood. My father was one of the very first -streetcar conductors and stayed on the very same line all these years -until he retired and they gave him a citation because he was on the -same line all those years from retirement, and we lived in a mixed -neighborhood of Negroes and white, and my childhood I played with -Negroes, sir, right next door to me was a lovely family that I grew up -with this Negro family. - -I married Mr. Edward John Pic, Jr., while working at the law firm. I -was married to Mr. Pic two and a half years when I became with child, -and he did not want any children. His family and my family tried to -talk to him, and, well, his family almost beat him up to say, but -nobody could do anything with him. - -So, at 3 months I left Mr. Pic. Mr. Pic did not divorce me, and you -have the records there of me divorcing Mr. Pic, contrary to all other -stories, sir. - -This child, John Edward Pic then I bore alone, without a husband. I -was 3 months pregnant. I had 6 more months to go, and I had this child -without a husband. - -So, I have had two children without a husband present, Lee and the -first child. - -Mr. Oswald was an insurance agent, and he used to collect insurance at -my sister's house, and the day that I left Mr. Pic he helped move my -furniture, the things that I was going to take. - -I didn't see Mr. Ekdahl for some time and---- - -The CHAIRMAN. Ekdahl or Oswald. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Oswald, sir, I am sorry. - -John Edward and I were coming from the park one day, and Mr. Ekdahl -picked--Mr. Oswald picked me up, and he was separated from his wife, -however, not divorced but had been separated for a number of years, and -I started dating Mr. Ekdahl and we decided to marry and he divorced his -wife. - -Mr. RANKIN. You said Ekdahl again. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Oswald, I am sorry, and then he got the divorce -proceeding. He was separated for a long time but never had been -divorced from his wife but when we knew he was going to marry, and I -also then got the divorce from Mr. Pic. I was not divorced there from -Mr. Pic, either. We were legally separated but I was not divorced from -him. - -So, Mr. Oswald and I married and of that marriage Robert was born 9 -months later, and as you know consequently Lee, 2 months after his -father had died. - -Now, Mr. Oswald was a very good man. There was the only happy part of -my life. When he died hardly anybody knew that John Edward Pic was not -his son. He wanted to adopt John Edward, but because his father was -supporting him which I think was only $18 a month, I explained to Lee -that I thought we should save this money for the boys' education and -let his own father support him and naturally we would educate and do -all we could do but that was no more than right. So that is why he did -not adopt John Edward. - -Now, that is the story of my three marriages. I have been married -approximately 9 years in the three times that I have been married, -sir, and I would say, I am probably guilty of a lot of things but the -initial guilt has never been mine in any of these marriages, the first -marriage I had explained, the second marriage was death, and the third -marriage was Mr. Ekdahl. - -I think then you know the rest of the story, how I lived with my -children and tried to support my children. - -I have often held two jobs trying to support my children. I have a -whole file that the Commission has copies of jobs that I have worked, -and I have also worked for these places twice, and have gone back. I -have wonderful recommendations. I think I have been fired about five -times in my life, and I have had much, much employment, and the reason -for that is finances, in other words, I have always had a very low -salary, and I am a very aggressive sales person, as these papers say, -and I always produce for my people and I was in demand actually. - -They would come to me and offer me 20, 25 dollars more, believe me, -gentlemen. I would quit the job where I was and quit the new job -because 25 dollars paid my light and heat bill and gave my children -some clothes and that is mostly the reason for all of this employment, -and also I used to quit my job as much as possible in the summer time -when the children were little in order to be home with them. - -Now, I skipped a part in the beginning about the children being placed -in the Lutheran Home. I am Lutheran and I was a church member, a church -worker, I should say. I helped, I sewed, natural gifted, I never did -take a lesson, I never did use a pattern, my sister can verify this. - -I used to come home from the attorneys with material, cut out the -material, sew it, press it and go out on a date. I just had the knack -of doing things that way, sir, and she can verify this because my -niece, I taught her to sew and my sister said, "You are so slow, Aunt -Marguerite used to sew on the material and go out on a date," and my -niece would say, "Is it true, my mother said you would sew on material -and go out on a date," and I said, "I wish I had a nickel for every -time I did." - -So those are gifted things I can't explain. - -Lee had certain gifted ways about him also. - -In the early part of my life that I had skipped when the war broke -out and my finances were gone, I talked with the church. It was on -Alva Street in New Orleans, not too far where my home was and they -investigated the money I had, and I had a little money left at this -time and they let me place the two older boys in the Lutheran Home -which is a home only for the Lutheran Church. - -This is not an institution. They have their own private school on the -ground, and it is primarily based for children of one parent. However, -they do take orphans. It was really not designed to be an orphan -home. It was for children of one parent and you pay according to your -circumstances, and they investigated my salary and after I went to -work, I paid according to my circumstances for my two boys. - -I took my two boys home with me every weekend, sir, and brought them -back in time for Sunday so they can go to church with the children in -the home. They got a wonderful education because the school on the -school grounds had very few children in them. - -There would be maybe two or three children to a particular grade so -they had wonderful school. Lee was too young. They would not take Lee -into the home until he was 3 years old. - -So, I have hired maids and I have quit many a job for this. You have a -background on my job, this accounts for it. Many a position and I have -always had title and no money, assistant manager or manager in charge -of a department, and I have had to quit that, because the maid wouldn't -show up, and you couldn't get a maid for love or money. - -War had broken out and the Negroes in New Orleans were going into -factories and so on and so forth so there is many a job I had to leave -in order to stay home and mind Lee until I could get help. - -Then my sister helped with Lee. There is one particular instance, I let -a couple have my home, plus $15 a month in order to care for Lee while -I worked, and this couple after about 2 month's time had neglected Lee -and so I had to put them out of the house and there again I had to quit -a job, and take care of Lee until I could make arrangements and my -sister could help me with it. - -So when Lee was 3 years old I was having it very difficult with Lee, -because of the different people to take care of Lee, and the different -jobs that I had to give up. - -However, I was never in want of work. It was during the war and I was -always able to get work, but I realized if I continued to quit jobs -because I couldn't hold the jobs that some day I wouldn't have enough -jobs in New Orleans for me to hold one. - -So, then at age 3 Lee was placed in the home. I waited patiently for -age 3 because I wanted naturally for the brothers to be together. It -was hard on Lee also because Lee was at a different place and his -brothers were at a different place. So at age 3 I placed Lee in a -Lutheran home. Of course, you have to be under strict investigation -financially and otherwise to do this because this is a church -placement, sir. - -Then, I became manager of Princess hosiery shop on Canal Street. I -opened that shop and I was left by myself and in 6 days' time I hired -four girls. There was the first shop this man has had. He now has, I -think, 54 stores and he always remembers me as on the road of starting -him to success, because this young man didn't have much money at the -time. And this is where I met Mr. Ekdahl and there is why I didn't want -to marry right away because the children were being taken care of and I -was manager of the hosiery shop. - -So, now, I was sitting pretty in our American slang and I did not want -to marry. But he persisted. He decided he wanted to marry me and I -decided to marry him. I went to the Lutheran home and talked to the, -well, you don't call him a manager, the head of the home, and I was -going to marry Mr. Ekdahl, and I asked if I should have, if I could -have Lee, that I didn't want the children, John Edward, and Robert -to miss their schooling and I told them that I would wait until the -children got out of school to marry Mr. Ekdahl but Mr. Ekdahl traveled, -and, yet, he had a stroke and Mr. Ekdahl had offered, if I would come -to Dallas, he was being transferred to Dallas, that he would pay my -room, my living quarters and everything if I would cook and take care -of him and I told the home, the Lutheran home about this arrangement, -so there was nothing going to be immoral about it, sir, or I wouldn't -have explained to the Lutheran home and they let me have Lee under -those circumstances because they knew that I was a good woman and doing -the best I could. - -So, I got Lee, and when we went to Dallas, I then realized I did not -want to marry Mr. Ekdahl, but I had already given up my position as -manager of the hosiery shop, and had taken Lee out of school so with -the money, I told you I had some money, and I had sold a piece of -property, I bought another piece of property for a very small down -payment on Victor Street in Dallas, Tex., and Mr. Ekdahl traveled. - -Now, Mr. Ekdahl used to come on weekends and stay at my home. Of -course, in his bedroom with my children, just maybe not even every -weekend because he traveled, and then I decided I would marry Mr. -Ekdahl. I mean I decided not to, I mean, he was a persistent one. - -Then I married Mr. Ekdahl and the home was sold and I traveled with Mr. -Ekdahl and the children were put into military school with the money I -sold the home with. - -I believe I have covered everything. I am not quite sure. - -Are there any questions, Mr. Rankin, that I haven't gotten? - -Mr. RANKIN. I think that is very helpful. - -I would like to ask you about those pictures that you offered and then -decided you didn't want to give us. If you would get those out, I would -like to identify them so that there cannot be any misunderstanding -about just what they are about. - -Could you do that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. By the way, one of the reporters when I came downstairs -said "What is all the commotion about those pictures, you have, Mrs. -Oswald?" Where do those leaks come from? That is the example. They -wanted to know about the pictures. - -Mr. Chief Justice, this is Lee at 6 months. - -The CHAIRMAN. He was a good looking baby. - -Mrs. OSWALD. This is Lee there at 2 years. Would--if you would like a -copy of the Marina pictures, sir, I would be more than happy to do that. - -I think they are in an envelope. This is important, Mr. Rankin. This -has something to do with Time Magazine is what I think he did. This is -where he got that from. These were copied for this session. These are -from my other boys to mother, and John Edward and which I wanted to -show we were a family but as soon as the boys married--here is another -thing, which is true to human nature. - -I am a widow woman with no money and I happened not to have the type -daughter-in-laws who wanted a widow woman in case they have to support -me. My children make very low salaries and so I am not alone, we -have thousands and thousands of women like me. It is hard to say the -children don't want you. But there are many, many mothers whose sons -have married because it is different with a girl. - -Now a girl will take care of the mother but the boy's mother is usually -nothing and I am not going to be helped or supported. - -I am going to take care of myself because that is the attitude and that -was the attitude when I was sick. - -Lee Harvey Oswald was the only one who has helped his mother at any -time but I wanted to show mothers today cared and everything until they -married. That was the type family we were, sir. - -And this was the picture, Mr. Rankin, of the three children which is a -happy life and he wanted to be in New Orleans. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I am going to call your attention to Exhibit -258 which you just referred to and said maybe that is what you meant. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, because I gave him this when he entered the home. - -Mr. RANKIN. This Exhibit 258 refers to the letter you received from -me as general counsel for the Commission, and then a letter to the -President, and your appeal to the President, is that right? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. RANKIN. And this is a copy you released for the press conference in -Dallas. That is Exhibit 258. I offer Exhibit 258. - -The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted. - -Mr. RANKIN. If you will permit me, I will ask the court reporter to -identify these pictures and I don't intend to offer them but then I -will ask you each one by number so we can make it clear, and then -return them to you, so you can tell us what they are about, is that all -right with you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is just fine, thank you. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, Mrs. Oswald, I will hand you Exhibits 259 through 269, -both inclusive, and ask you to take them starting with Exhibit 259 and -referring to the exhibit in each case, tell the Commission what the -picture is about. - -Mrs. OSWALD. 259 is of the three children, John Edward, Robert, and -Lee and the three are smiling. In fact this picture was in a magazine -because of the three good poses. It is hard to get three pictures alike. - -Mr. RANKIN. About how old are the children in that picture? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I know Lee was approximately going on 6 years old. There -is 5 years difference in Robert so Robert would be 11, that is correct -and John Edward would be 13. That is when they went to military school. - -This is a picture of Lee at age 6 months. - -Mr. RANKIN. You are talking about Exhibit 260? - -Mrs. OSWALD. 260, yes, sir. - -This is a picture of Lee at the Bronx Zoo, Exhibit 261 at age 13. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is the Bronx Zoo in New York? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is the Bronx Zoo in New York that you told us about. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -262 is a picture of Lee in Atsugi, Japan in 1958 showing his strength. - -Mr. RANKIN. That shows him in Marine uniform also, does it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. In his Marine uniform showing his muscles to his mother. - -And this is a picture, Exhibit 263 taken in Corregidor 1957 in the -wilderness. - -Mr. RANKIN. He is still in the Marines there? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes, he is in fatigues, there. This is a picture taken -August 19, 264 taken in California coming home on leave from Japan. - -Mr. RANKIN. 264 he is still in the Marines? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he is still in the Marines August 19. This is a -picture of Lee taken in Minsk, Russia June 1st, 1961, Minsk, USSR, -Exhibit 267. - -There is a picture of Marguerite Oswald, the mother taken in New -Orleans. - -Mr. RANKIN. What is the number? - -Mrs. OSWALD. 265. - -Mr. RANKIN. Thank you. That is your own picture? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -This is a Mother's Day card sent to me from Santa Ana, California on -May 7, 1959 from Lee. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 266? - -Mrs. OSWALD. And this is Exhibit 268 which is a Christmas card I -had sent Lee on his first Christmas away from home--he joined in -October--that Lee had kept all these years in his sea bag, this was -found in his sea bag he left with me. - -This is a book of Christmas carols Exhibit 269 that was also found in -Lee's sea bag. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, Exhibits 259 to 269 both inclusive, are those all of -the pictures that you were offering the Commission this morning? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I have many more pictures, I would be happy to show you -but these are the pictures that your Mr. Jenner said he would like to -have for the Commission. - -Mr. RANKIN. And that you were referring to when you offered them to the -Commission? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Thank you very much and we would like to return them to you -at this time. - -The CHAIRMAN. We will return them to you, Mrs. Oswald. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is all I have, Mr. Chairman. - -The Chairman. Well I think that will be all then. Thank you Mrs. Oswald -and if you become too tired with your testimony, we know it has been a -long and arduous task for you, but we appreciate your presence. - -Now, Mr. Doyle. - -Mr. DOYLE. Sorry for the interruption, sir. Mrs. Oswald, do you care -to make any comment to the Commission about the tape recording, the -transcript of the tape recording of Mrs. Marguerite Oswald furnished -to you by the Commission this morning? Do you care to make any comment -about that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Should I go all the way and make the comment? - -Mr. DOYLE. You make any comment you desire on that paper. I ask you -whether or not you have any comment to make concerning that paper that -you sent, that you were given? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I am concerned about one thing, Mr. Doyle, if I may just -step over there and ask you a question. - -The CHAIRMAN. You may step out in the hall and talk to Mr. Doyle. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Chief Justice Warren and Mr. Rankin, I have read this -and it has upset me very, very much, that is what I was upset about. -I have stated before in my testimony that at the end of the Six Flags -I insisted upon going home and getting my important papers and I was -ignored. - -I wanted to testify. They put Robert on tape many a time and Marina -continuously and I didn't have an interview. I have stated this -previously, if you remember, and then finally a Mr. Howard put me on -tape for about 5 or 10 minutes only, sir, and I had started with the -defection because I was under the impression that we missed a bet -when we didn't find out how Lee got to Russia and as far as I know, -no reporter has been able to find out what ship he left on, and then -Robert left the bedroom because he had the news that we could not get -a minister, if you recall, and cried, and I said to Mr. Howard "Now -all that I have left me because I see my son crying bitterly." I have -stated these facts before, a very short interview. - -This interview is supposed to have been by Mr. Howard, sir. The same -Mr. Mike Howard that I have previously identified before on many -occasions, and I swear before this Committee that now my life is -more in danger which I have said before, because I did not give this -testimony. This is the testimony that has been gathered by known facts -because I have been a public figure. - -I have had three press conferences, I have written for magazines and -newspapers. I have not kept quiet, sir, as you know, so these things -have been accumulated. I was not questioned and answered, sir. I have -stated it before and I state it now. This is the same man who was sent -to me in Fort Worth, Tex. that I have complained that I did not get -protection, if you will recall. This is the very same man, sir. This -is the same man that I have told you that gave my daughter-in-law a -red-carpet treatment if you will recall along with the other one I -identified in the picture. This is the man I have been sitting here -complaining about. Here is my evidence. I am ready to have a heart -attack. I was sick, sir, when I read it because I realize now how my -life is in danger and I want to say this: Many people know about this, -many people, sir, Mr. Jack Langdon of the Morning Times, Mr. Blair -Justice of the Star Telegram and I immediately called Mr. Blair Justice -of the Star Telegram when this man knocked on my door last week to -protect me, and told Blair Justice that this was the man, there was an -article written in the Star Telegram, not printed but about pointed -every lie at the Six Flags I made it plain that the other one if he had -a gun would have shot me in my prior testimony, Mr. Rankin you remember -that, so I told Mr. Justice, I said "Justice I am scared to death. This -is the same man that I am suspicious of that they have now sent to -guard me," and as you know, sir, I was not protected. - -I was not protected while in Fort Worth. I have testified to that, if -you will recall. This is the man, and I did not give this testimony, -sir. - -I have repeatedly stated to newspapermen and to everybody publicly that -I have never been questioned. The only thing I could figure why I was -never questioned is because Lee was an agent, and I have stated that -fact. Why they left me alone, because I have never been questioned. - -Mr. Tom Whalen who is an announcer for one of the television stations -in Fort Worth he kept calling Lee the assassin of President Kennedy, -and I called Mr. Whalen and I said to Mr. Whalen "You don't know that -Lee assassinated President Kennedy. I object to that." - -I said "I can't tell you what to do, sir, but I would like you to say -the accused assassin because this is what he is" and he apologized and -we talked a little while and I said no sir, I told him I was not--I had -never been interviewed. He says "I can't believe that, Mrs. Oswald." I -said "Believe it or not I have never been interviewed," which I made a -statement upon arriving in Washington that I have never had a complete -tape recording or question and answer. - -I went to the courthouse, and gave my information to the FBI men as I -stated previously, which took a few minutes. - -I never did see those men after that. They weren't investigated and at -the Six Flags I repeatedly wanted to go home and get my papers and give -the documents that I have here, as I stated, and I was not questioned, -sir at Six Flags. - -I was questioned for about 5 or 10 minutes and I stopped this way. All -of my thoughts have gone from me because I see my son crying. I have -previously stated that. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, in light of your saying that you didn't give -this interview evidenced by this document, a copy of which we gave to -you which purports to have been recorded on November 25, 1963, by Mr. -Howard, I would like to have that identified by the reporter and then -give you another copy that you can compare, and I would like to ask you -just a few questions about it. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Fine. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I hand you back the 28-page reported interview -that I just referred to that has just been marked Exhibit 270 and -ask you if that is the document that you were referring to in your -testimony? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir; this is the document I am referring to. - -Mr. RANKIN. That you just said you did not give that interview? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. And I will finish something, too, Mr. -Mark R. Lane called and I told Mr. Mark Lane about the Secret Service -man. He knows about this, many know about this, I have witnesses by -this. - -Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by this? - -Mrs. OSWALD. About this man, Mr. Howard. - -Mr. RANKIN. I see. But not that you said that you did not give this -interview. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Pardon? - -Mr. RANKIN. When you say this, you didn't mean that they know that you -did not give this interview? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No. They knew that I didn't testify, I am sorry. But Mr. -Mark Lane called me the morning that I was to--the day I was supposed -to leave Fort Worth to come to Washington, sir, and I said to Mr. Mark -Lane, "I am not going in the car with Mr. Mike Howard." and there was -another Mr. Howard by the way who came there that day. I don't know -whether he was his brother or not, we will have to find out, sir, the -day I was going to leave for Washington, and I said, "Lane, I am scared -to death." He says "Don't worry. I will call Mr. Walden, who is the -Star Telegram reporter and ask him to accompany you." and Mr. Mark Lane -called Mr. Walden of the Star Telegram and asked him to accompany me -and Mr. Walden did accompany me with these two Secret Service men to -the airport and when Mr. Walden entered my home I told him I am so glad -you are here because I didn't want to go with this agent by myself. - -And this is the same agent now--Chief Justice are you interested enough -for me to tell you a little more? - -The CHAIRMAN. About this? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -The CHAIRMAN. Tell what you wish about it. - -Mrs. OSWALD. We are going to go back now a little bit and then you will -see the pattern. At the end of the Six Flags; I will make it as short -as possible and when everything was Mama and we were going to live -together and I told you they took her from me and I didn't see her, -then Marina's testimony started to change, sir. Marina's testimony was -not this testimony the first 3 days. - -I have testified, and she has testified differently than me. I don't -know of all of her testimony but the first 3 days, this was not her -husband's rifle, at the police station and she admitted but it wasn't -her husband's rifle. She was going to live with her Mama and everything -was fine and then when I told you the way they did, then Marina turned -against her Mama, you no have work, and from that time Marina has been -changed to a different personality, let's admit it, sir, Marina has -been changing to a different personality. - -Her statements, her way of life, she smokes, as I said today. I am not -saying it now, she stopped nursing her baby. This is a Russian girl, -I know she lived with me 1 month, how untouched of worldly things she -was, and I mentioned before there was a lot of rumors that I didn't -feel like I wanted to go into but that I couldn't overlook. - -Sir, if you would know the rumors, then you would put two and two -together what I have been trying to say. This man, along with the other -one that I have identified, are definitely in this pattern, and Marina -Oswald, yes, Marina Oswald has changed completely. - -She made a statement on television now she is happy that she has ever -been and people have written, her husband is only gone 2 months. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, this Exhibit 270, you understand, is a -transcription, that is the writing out of what was on the tape, you -understand that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. But I was never taped, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. We have asked, Mr. Chairman, that the tape be sent over so -that it can be heard, if you wish. - -The CHAIRMAN. Now, you mean. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. It is on its way over. - -The CHAIRMAN. Oh, yes. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I have stated previously, if I was taped it was during a -conversation going on that they taped me. I have never sat down and -been taped, sir. I don't think I am out of my mind, I wonder why. - -The CHAIRMAN. May I see this. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Max Phillips, who is a Secret Service agent brought a -dictaphone into my home, on Thomas Place, when I left Six Flags, and I -saw it connected and Mr. Jim Cox of the Star Telegram can prove that I -disconnected it. When I was telling Mr. Jim Cox my story about putting -my children into a Lutheran home and I thought it was a personal story -that had nothing to do with this particular case I disconnected the -tape recorder. - -Mr. Max Phillips brought a tape recorder into my home and as you know I -do a lot of talking. And I never did sit down. - -Mr. RANKIN. This was a tape recording at the Six Flags. - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. It purports to be. You understand that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I understand that thoroughly. - -I would like to produce some other evidence that I have also to this -Commission. I have, as Mr. Doyle knows, a tape recorder with a few -recordings on it, and there are several, two, I believe. Mr. Sorrels' -recordings on that. I found it necessary, because my mail was being -opened, my mail, I have reported to the Postal Inspections, I have -stated in the beginning that all of my rights were taken away from me, -and, sir, believe me they were, and when I was a lone woman I would say -something I was supposed to be out of my mind and didn't know what I -was talking about I started to decide I needed some evidence too and -Mr. Sorrels kept pushing me off about seeing my daughter-in-law, I have -him on tape, and I have Mr. Thorne on tape about my mail being opened. -I have some other evidence. - -Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever transcribed that? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Would you transcribe that and send us copies of it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. That is a very long document. I was never -questioned and answered. - -The CHAIRMAN. It would hardly seem possible, Mrs. Oswald, that unless -this is a complete fabrication that anyone could have given these -answers but you, it is--so many of these questions and answers are -exactly what you have told us. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Exactly what I have told you, sir, I have been in the -news continuously, I have made the same statements over and over in -magazines and newspapers and press conferences, yes, sir, that is not -news to anybody. - -And as a matter of fact, I was taped, oh, this might be a point, I -was taped at my first press conference which was at the Fort Worth -Press Club which I talked approximately 2 hours, and there was a tape -recorder there. I talked over 2 hours at that press conference. - -Mr. RANKIN. This is question and answer? - -For instance, and I am looking at page 18, there are different -questions and answers. - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is a condensed version of my whole testimony, as I -say, because I have been in the public eye and I have all of these -things public. - -These things have been made public. - -Mr. RANKIN. This purports to be following the tape recording as to your -son Robert, you remember his giving a tape recording interview? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Robert gave a tape recording, I told you, and so did -Marina and I was not asked to be tape recorded. - -I myself asked to give testimony and I did give about 5- or 10-minutes -testimony that I say again that I ended up with now all my thoughts are -gone, I see my son crying, a very short, and if I remember correctly, -I started with the defection. I do know because I said "Robert doesn't -know anything about my trip to Washington. He wasn't interested and -maybe he should listen to my testimony." And I got not far from it when -Robert cried and that ended that testimony. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, while we are waiting, you may relax. We will -take a little recess, if you want to refresh yourself, you may step -out. That is perfectly all right. - -Mrs. OSWALD. One thing, of course I am not supposed to tell you what -to do, I know and I don't mean to, Chief Justice, but since this man -was reassigned to guard me in Fort Worth I would like to know if he was -free or if he was taken off another assignment to come to Fort Worth to -guard me for this trip? Because it is the same man, understand? - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I think in regard to that I had better state -on the record we had nothing to do, that is the Commission or myself, -about the selection of any of the personnel. We just asked the Secret -Service to handle it and so we don't at this time know what the answer -is to your question. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you. - -(Short recess.) - -The CHAIRMAN. All right, Mr. Rankin, you may continue. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, we have this transcript at this time that we -are ready to play now and it starts out with Robert Oswald's testimony -or answers and questions like the transcription, written transcription -states at the head of it, and I think it might be helpful if we just -start with that and we can move on if you wish to with the other. - -The CHAIRMAN. All right. - -(Playing of tape recording.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, this is about 3 pages out of around between 13 -and 14 of your son's transcription. Do you recognize your son's voice? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I have to listen really, it is a recorder, I am sure, -but I have to, you know, listen, that story is right. There are two -discrepancies so far as dates. - -Mr. RANKIN. But you do recognize it? It sounds like him? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it sounds like him. It is the recorder. - -Mr. RANKIN. Is it all right for us to pass down to yours at this time? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, and I want the time on it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mrs. OSWALD. That would be how many pages? About the 2 months he made -an error, it is June 13 and they were in my home with me by July 14. - -(Transcription played.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, do you have any problem about that being your -voice on the tape? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, but I think probably the rest of it is my voice. -I had a news conference at the Fort Worth Press Club at Fort Worth, -Tex., that I was on tape for 2 hours. - -Now, here is what--this is probably a little over 10 minutes to hear -"Pardon me, you will have to excuse me." And there was a lot of break -there. That is exactly 10 minutes. I have testified that at the -Inn of Six Flags I talked for about 10 minutes and then I stopped -because my son was crying, and I still say I testified for 10 minutes -approximately at the Inn of Six Flags. - -I had a press conference at the Fort Worth Press Club, that can be -verified that I talked for over 2 hours that I was on tape. I was -sitting on a desk with many, many reporters because this was when it -just happened, and we had a lot of reporters, and in the back of me was -a man, and everything I said was on this tape, and it was over 2 hours -that I talked at this press club. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you say the things that you say here? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. In answer to these questions? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, and all through here is my story, yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. At the press club? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I talked for 2 hours. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you didn't say it to this agent? - -Mrs. OSWALD. I said, and I am going to continue to say this, that I had -approximately 10 minutes interview at the Inn of Six Flags, and then -the telephone rang and Robert came out and started crying, and I said -I see my son crying so now all my thoughts have left me and I was not -interviewed any further at the Inn of Six Flags, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. On this tape you heard a little child talking, didn't you? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is right. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, was there a little child like that at this---- - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, June was at the Inn of the Six Flags and if I am as -smart as they are and if they are as smart as I am, there could be a -little child crying all during the rest of the testimony. - -Mr. RANKIN. I see, but there wasn't a little child at the place where -you gave your press conference? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, but I am not familiar with--but couldn't a tape be -added and spliced and couldn't a child voice be put in? I am just -saying, because I have said before and I am saying now I was taped -for about 10 minutes, just where this business came in was exactly 10 -minutes, "Pardon me," now I spoke for over two and a half hours at the -Fort Worth Press Club and was taped there. - -What they can do with that tape, I don't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who asked you the questions when you were answering them at -the Fort Worth Press Club? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Now, it was not in this sequence, answer and questions. -So, I am saying, I do not know how they can get my voice and do the -tape and answering questions for the rest, but gentlemen, I am not out -of my mind and I have said this over and over publicly, that I have -never been interviewed, answer and question, but for about 10 minutes -at the Inn of the Six Flags. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, then I would like to go down about 5 or 6 -minutes more maybe and see what it sounds like and the background if we -play for just a few minutes. - -The CHAIRMAN. All right. - -Mr. RANKIN. Would you drop down for another 5 minutes? Skip about 5 -minutes, please. - -Mrs. OSWALD. After you start may I say something else? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mrs. OSWALD. All of this here I have said and also said in my home and -I have testified that there was a tape recorder in my home brought in -by Mr. Max Phillips, Mr. Rankin. Why can't--I don't know anything about -tape but it can be spliced and edited and so forth, that much I know -because when I have talked for reporters, they don't use everything I -say. They splice. - -Mr. RANKIN. But you recognize, Mrs. Oswald, it would be quite a job to -splice in each one of those questions. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, the assassination of the President of the United -States and a scapegoat for it would be quite a job, it would be worth -while, yes, sir, I realize that. - -Mr. RANKIN. Let's try a little more. - -(Transcription played.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you want to say anything more about this? - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I do. I haven't gone through all of this. I have -made the statement over and over that my conversation was stopped. It -was approximately a 10-minute conversation and it was stopped with the -remark "I see my son crying. All my thoughts have left me." - -Is that remark in this any place? - -Mr. RANKIN. I don't recall that it is. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Well, we will have to recall, because this, I have stated -and was said and that is when I stopped the conversation at the Inn -of the Six Flags. Robert came out crying because he couldn't get a -minister and I said, "I see my son crying, now all my thoughts have -left me," and the interview stopped at the Inn of Six Flags which I -have testified was approximately 10 minutes. - -Now, sir, there was a microphone in my home. This is not news to -anybody. I have said this over and over and over. The ordinary layman -by now knows my whole story, Chief Justice Warren. There was Mr. Max -Phillips who had a microphone in my home. I testified on tape for over -2 hours at--talked at the Fort Worth Club, which would be, it is the -same story over and over, I have told you all the same story that you -already have here. - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes, but it wasn't the same man interrogating you at this -place as it was at this hotel, was it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. About now--I don't know if this is the same man on the -whole tape because I haven't listened to it. No, no one interrogated me -at the Fort Worth Press Club, sir. I talked, there was an open press. - -The CHAIRMAN. But it is the same voice we are hearing now asking you -questions as at the beginning of this tape, isn't it? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. I have just stated, since this is a very -big operation, that this could be edited and this man's voice put on -there. This I know, because the radio stations called me and they -edited what I do. Isn't this possible, that this could be edited, and -that this man asked the questions and then my voice be put in. It would -be a big job but I am asking isn't that possible? I swear that I have -never had answers and questions of this sort, gentlemen. - -The CHAIRMAN. Shall we turn over about 10 minutes more and see if the -same voices are in it there? - -(Transcription played.) - -Mrs. OSWALD. I am not sure but I think it was possible it was an editor -that he put me on there. - -(Transcription played.) - -The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mrs. Oswald, those are the same voices. - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is Mr. Mike Howard's voice, yes, sir, I recognize his -voice, yes, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. And that is your voice? - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is my voice. - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes. - -Mrs. OSWALD. But I am not going to vary from my story. - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes, all right. - -Mrs. OSWALD. That is an interview just 10 minutes at the Inn of Six -Flags and that was the only time when going to the courthouse and -asked for the FBI of Lee getting the money to come home from the State -Department and Congressman Wright knew about it and they left and they -didn't even come back and talk to me, sir, yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. Play just the last part. - -Mrs. OSWALD. The last 25 minutes. - -Mr. RANKIN. These last remarks that we listened to were on page 13. - -(Transcription played.) - -The CHAIRMAN. Those are the same two voices, Howard's voice and your -voice. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I say those are the two same voices, Mr. Mike -Howard's voice, yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is on page 21 of the transcript. Mr. Chairman, do you -think there is any need for any more? - -The CHAIRMAN. I don't see any need for going any further with it. - -Mrs. Oswald says she didn't have this interview, these questions were -not asked of her and these answers given but she does identify the -voices as being hers and all we have is her word, and this tape, and -the transcription at the present time. So for the moment, I suppose we -will just have to leave it where it is. - -I don't see any other answer to it. - -Mrs. OSWALD. All right. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I have shown you during a recess what has been -marked as Exhibit 271, and you have examined the handwriting of that -exhibit. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And the various letters there. Can you tell us whether or -not those handwritings on those various letters are those of your son, -Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mrs. OSWALD. It looks like his handwriting, I would say so. I am not -handwriting expert. It looks very much like his writing. - -Mr. RANKIN. Thank you. We offer in evidence Exhibit 271. - -The CHAIRMAN. It will be admitted. - -(The document was received in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 271.) - -Mr. RANKIN. We understand, Mr. Doyle, that you have examined the -original documents of Exhibits 244 through 257, and compared them with -the photostatic copies that have been marked. - -Mr. DOYLE. I have. - -Mr. RANKIN. And stipulate for the record that the photostats are -correct, of the originals, is that agreeable? - -Mr. DOYLE. I do. - -Mr. RANKIN. Thank you. - -Mr. Chairman, I have nothing further unless Mrs. Oswald has something -or Mr. Doyle cares to interrogate Mrs. Oswald about anything. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, do you have anything more you want to say? - -Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't have anything more. Do you have any questions, -Mr. Doyle? - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Doyle, do you have anything to say? - -Mr. DOYLE. I have no further questions, no. - -The CHAIRMAN. Well, thank you very much, Mrs. Oswald, for appearing -voluntarily before the Commission and giving your testimony, and Mr. -Doyle, I want to express the appreciation of the Commission for the -help you have been to Mrs. Oswald and to the Commission in representing -her on this occasion. We know that it disrupted your week very badly. -We know that you responded to this call for public service on a -moment's notice, and we appreciate it all the more because of that. - -My own personal thanks to you in addition to those of the Commission. - -Mr. DOYLE. Thank you, Your Honor. I assume that my designation was -for the purpose of the hearing and with the conclusion that will have -finished my job. - -The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Unless Mrs. Oswald should like to ask you some -questions about the matter at the conclusion of the testimony, I think -that will be all. - -Mr. DOYLE. Very well. - -The CHAIRMAN. Thank you both. - -Mrs. OSWALD. You and I are through as attorney and client? - -Mr. DOYLE. Yes. - -Mrs. OSWALD. This will not be pursued any further? - -Mr. DOYLE. Unless you have some questions, thank you. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Gentlemen, you are making a very big mistake. I thank you -very much for inviting me here. - -The CHAIRMAN. I don't understand you. - -Mrs. OSWALD. I think you are making a very big mistake not pursuing -this further because I have told important people about this particular -incident and I say it is correct and I hope you will continue while I -am gone not just to ignore what I have said. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, you misjudge the Commission when you say we -will not pursue it further. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Fine, I don't know, I am asking. - -The CHAIRMAN. You may be sure we will pursue it further. - -Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you, and I have more people that I could call. I -have told Mr. Doyle the people. - -Would you like me to name the people on the record for you? Mr. Lane, I -called Mr. Lane---- - -The CHAIRMAN. To what purpose are you naming these people? - -Mrs. OSWALD. To the purpose that Mr. Mike Howard who came to Fort -Worth last week to protect me, I called these people and told them how -concerned I was that he was the one. - -The CHAIRMAN. I think you have told us what you told them, so that we -have it here in the record now. - -We are adjourned. - -(Whereupon, at 5:15 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -_Thursday, February 20, 1964_ - -TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWARD LEE OSWALD - -The President's Commission met at 9:30 a.m., on February 20, 1964, at -200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. - -Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Cooper, -Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Allen W. -Dulles, members. - -Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Albert E. Jenner, -Jr., assistant counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; William -McKenzie, attorney for Robert Edward Lee Oswald and Leon Jaworski, -special counsel to the attorney general of Texas. - - -The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, the Commission will be in order. - -I will make a brief statement for the benefit of Mr. McKenzie and Mr. -Oswald, so you will know just what this is about. - -On November 29, 1963, President Lyndon B. Johnson issued Executive -Order No. 11130, appointing a Commission "to ascertain, evaluate -and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late -President John F. Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man -charged with the assassination." - -On December 13, 1963, Congress adopted Joint Resolution S.J. 137, which -authorizes the Commission or any member of the Commission or any agent -or agency designated by the Commission for such purpose to administer -oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence. - -On January 21, 1964, the Commission adopted a resolution authorizing -each member of the Commission, and its General Counsel, J. Lee Rankin, -to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive -evidence concerning any matters under investigation by the Commission. - -The purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of Mr. Robert -Oswald, the brother of Lee Harvey Oswald, who prior to his death was -charged with the assassination of President Kennedy. - -Since the Commission is inquiring fully into the background of Lee -Harvey Oswald and those associated with him, it is the intention of the -Commission to ask Mr. Robert Oswald questions concerning Lee Harvey -Oswald on any and all matters relating to the assassination. - -The Commission also intends to ask Mr. Robert Oswald questions relating -to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent -death of Lee Harvey Oswald. Mr. Robert Oswald has also been furnished -with a copy of this statement and a copy of the rules adopted by the -Commission for the taking of testimony and the production of evidence. -Mr. Robert Oswald has also been furnished with a copy of Executive -Order No. 11130, and Congressional Resolution S.J. No. 137, which set -forth the general scope of the Commission's inquiry and its authority -for examining witnesses and receiving evidence. - -That is just for your general information, Mr. Oswald. - -You are here with your attorney, Mr. McKenzie. - -Would you state your name for the Commission? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chief Justice and members of the Commission, my name -is William A. McKenzie. Our office is 631 Fidelity Union Life Building, -Dallas, Tex. I am a member of the State Bar of Texas and licensed to -practice before the Supreme Court of that State. - -The CHAIRMAN. And you are here to advise and represent Mr. Robert -Oswald? - -Mr. McKENZIE. I am here to advise and represent Mr. Oswald. And I -might state, further, that Mr. Oswald will freely give answers to any -questions that the Commission might desire to ask of him. - -The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. - -There are present at the Commission this morning Mr. Allen Dulles, -Commissioner, and myself. I will be leaving fairly shortly to attend a -session of the Supreme Court, but in my absence Mr. Allen Dulles will -conduct the hearing. - -Mr. Oswald, would you please rise and be sworn? - -Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, -and nothing but the truth, so help you God, in all of these proceedings -at which you are to testify? - -Mr. OSWALD. I do. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chief Justice, if you may pardon me for just a -second. In coming down to the Commission's hearing room, I left part -of my file in Mr. Jenner's office, and I have asked Mr. Liebeler if he -will step out and get the file. - -The CHAIRMAN. You would like to wait for that? - -Mr. McKENZIE. If you don't mind. - -The CHAIRMAN. I might add, while we are waiting for that to come -back, that Mr. Albert Jenner, one of the associate counsel for the -Commission, will conduct the examination this morning. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. - -I would like to state for the record that I have furnished to Mr. -Jenner and Mr. Liebeler this morning a letter dated February 17, 1964, -dictated by myself, but signed by Robert L. Oswald and witnessed by -Pete White, Joan Connelly, and Henry Baer, which I would like for the -Commission to have a copy of, and which I furnished to the Commission. - -And, further, that I have furnished to Mr. Jenner and Mr. Liebeler, -counsel for the Commission, a letter dated February 18, 1964, signed -by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald and witnessed by Declan P. Ford, Katherine N. -Ford, and Joan Connelly. - -The reason that I furnish these letters to the Commission I think will -be obvious from a reading of the letters, and, secondly, will likewise -explain my position to some extent. - -And, further, I have furnished to Mr. Jenner and Mr. Liebeler letters -dated February 18, 1964, addressed to Mr. James H. Martin, 11611 -Farrar, Dallas, Tex., signed by myself, and likewise signed by Marina -N. Oswald, and witnessed by Katherine Ford, a copy of which I furnished -to Mr. Lee Rankin, counsel for the Commission; and a letter of like -date, February 18, 1964, addressed to Mr. John M. Thorne, Thorne and -Leach, Attorneys and Counselors-at-Law, of Grand Prairie, Tex., signed -by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, and witnessed by Mrs. Katherine Ford. - -I furnish these to the Commission for the Commission's information. - -The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Thank you very much, Mr. McKenzie. - -Is there anything, Mr. McKenzie, you would like to know about our -procedure that you are not acquainted with? It is very informal. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chief Justice, I will say this. This is the first -time I have had the privilege of appearing before such a distinguished -group of citizens of this country, headed by yourself, and that we are -ready to proceed. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Jenner? - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice. - -May I suggest the wisdom of identifying each of these series of four -letters with an exhibit number, and may the reporter supply me with the -next number. - -The first letter mentioned by Mr. McKenzie is the letter dated February -17, 1964, addressed to Mr. McKenzie, and signed by Mr. Robert L. -Oswald, witnessed by Mr. Henry Baer, Joan Connelly, and Peter White. -That will be marked Commission Exhibit No. 272. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 272, for -identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. The second letter mentioned by Mr. McKenzie is dated -February 18, 1964, also addressed to Mr. McKenzie, signed by Mrs. -Marina N. Oswald, and witnessed by Declan P. Ford, Katherine N. Ford, -and Joan Connelly. That will be marked Commission Exhibit 273. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 273, for -identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. The next letter is dated February 18, 1964, and addressed -to Mr. James H. Martin, identified by Mr. McKenzie, and signed by Mrs. -Marina N. Oswald, witnessed by Mrs. Katherine Ford. Two pages. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 274 for -identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. The next and last of the series is a letter of the same -date, February 18, 1964, addressed to Mr. Thorne, John M. Thorne, -signed by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, and witnessed by Mrs. Katherine Ford, -two pages. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 275 for -identification.) - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may at this time, I would like to make -one other statement to the Commission. - -The CHAIRMAN. Before you do that, may I ask if you want those -introduced into evidence? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice. - -I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits 272 through 275, inclusive, -the documents that have been so identified and marked. - -The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted. - -(The documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 272 through -275, inclusive, for identification, were received in evidence.) - -The CHAIRMAN. Now, Mr. McKenzie? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice. - -We have brought with us the original copies of various letters received -from--dating from 1959 through 1962, from Lee Harvey Oswald to Robert -L. Oswald, together with some copies of a contract between Mr. -Oswald--Robert Oswald, Marina Oswald, John Thorne, and James Martin. We -bring those voluntarily and gladly. I would like to give them to the -Commission with the understanding and stipulation that they will not -be released to the press or to any news media, with the exception and -understanding of your final report. - -The CHAIRMAN. That is the only purpose we would have in having them, -and we will not release them to the press or to any other person. - -Mr. McKENZIE. I understand that, sir. And the only reason I make that -stipulation is for the record. - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes. With the understanding that the Commission will use -it for any purpose that is within the scope of the Executive order. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Absolutely. - -The CHAIRMAN. And for no other purpose. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Absolutely. - -The CHAIRMAN. Do you want to keep the originals and have copies made -for us, or do you want to leave the originals with us? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Well, sir, we have already started making the copies this -morning. - -The CHAIRMAN. That is all right. Either way you want to do it. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Whichever way the Commission would prefer. - -But we have started making copies this morning. - -The CHAIRMAN. That is all right, then. You may do it that way. - -Mr. Jenner, I guess you may proceed. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice. - -We have made copies of a number of the originals, additional ones of -which are also being made. And as I identify the documents, I will be -asking leave to introduce photostatic or xerox copies of the originals, -and I will so indicate at the appropriate moment. - -The CHAIRMAN. Very well. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chief Justice, Mr. Dulles--we have had a very short -session with Mr. McKenzie and Mr. Oswald, which has been pleasant -and of the character indicated here, with full cooperation by both -gentlemen. And we have explained to Mr. Oswald that this particular -phase of the matter covers Lee Harvey Oswald's entire life, and I added -it also covered Mr. Oswald's life. - -At times the particular thrust of the examination might not be -particularly apparent to Mr. McKenzie, but he is at liberty to inquire -as the case might be. But we are covering the entire lives. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, would you be good enough to state your full -name? - -Mr. OSWALD. Robert Edward Lee Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. And you reside now where? - -Mr. OSWALD. At 1009 Sierra Drive, Denton, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your present business or occupation? - -Mr. OSWALD. I am employed by the Acme Brick Co. in the capacity of -sales coordinator. - -Mr. JENNER. What city or town? - -Mr. OSWALD. Denton, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. What is the nature of your employment by that company? - -Mr. OSWALD. I am in the market department of the Acme Brick Co., -coordinating between the marketing and plant department, scheduling the -plant's production, processing and handling all orders, correspondence -relating to the orders, and generally following through in the line -of customers service, from prior to placing the orders by various -customers, architects, home builders and so forth, to the completion of -the invoices. - -Mr. JENNER. And how long have you been so employed by the Acme Brick -Co.? - -Mr. OSWALD. April of this year, 1964, will be 4 years. - -Mr. JENNER. And I think it might be helpful at this point--what is the -date of your birth? - -Mr. OSWALD. April 7, 1934, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Can you tell me how many years old you are? - -Mr. OSWALD. I will be 30 years old April 7, 1964. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Jenner, if you excuse me now, I am going to attend -a session of the Supreme Court. And if you are here this afternoon, I -will be back to be with you. - -Mr. DULLES (presiding). You may proceed, Mr. Jenner. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you. Mr. Dulles. - -Would you identify your family--Mrs. Oswald, and your two fine children? - -Mr. OSWALD. Thank you. My wife's name is Vada Marie Oswald. My -daughter's name is Cathy Marie Oswald, and my son's name is Robert Lee -Edward Oswald, Jr. - -Mr. JENNER. The ages? - -Mr. OSWALD. Cathy is 6 years old, and Robert Lee will be 3 years old -this April. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you give us Mrs. Oswald's maiden name? - -Mr. OSWALD. Vada Marie Mercer. - -Mr. JENNER. She is a native of your present town? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. She is from Keeter, Tex. My wife was raised -on a farm. This community is located close to Boyd, Tex., which is -approximately 35 miles northwest of Fort Worth. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Your father's full name? - -Mr. OSWALD. Robert Edward Lee Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. Edward? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And he is now deceased? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And as I recall, he died in August of 1939. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. You were then about what--5 years old? - -Mr. OSWALD. Five years old, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, your mother is Marguerite Oswald? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall her middle name? - -Mr. OSWALD. Claverie. - -Mr. JENNER. And what was her maiden name? - -Mr. OSWALD. I don't remember. - -Mr. JENNER. I think it was Claverie. You have a brother, John Pic? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. John Edward Pic. - -Mr. JENNER. And he is a stepbrother? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And born of a marriage of your mother with whom? - -Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me. He is a half brother. - -Mr. McKENZIE. He is a half brother, Mr. Jenner. - -Mr. JENNER. I am sorry to say that meant the same thing to me. But I am -probably in error. A half brother. - -Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry. I didn't hear the next question. - -Mr. JENNER. That is all right. You correct me when I am wrong. Don't -hesitate to do that. - -Your half brother's father was whom? - -Mr. OSWALD. This I do not know. I don't know his full name. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it John, to the best of your recollection? - -Mr. OSWALD. I would be of the opinion it was John. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you ever met him? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. - -Mr. JENNER. You never had any acquaintance with him? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I might further say I don't believe I have ever -seen a picture identified as being John's father. - -Mr. DULLES. You are speaking of the father now? - -Mr. JENNER. That is correct, sir. - -And your half brother, John Pic, is older than you, is he not? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you happen to recall his age? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he is now 33 years old. His birthday is January -17, 1932. - -Mr. JENNER. During your lifetime, you have had contact with him, have -you not? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And as boys, the family lived together? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, your mother, Mrs. Marguerite Claverie Oswald, was -married a third time, was she not? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. To whom? - -Mr. OSWALD. Mr. Edwin, I believe his middle initial was M. Ekdahl. - -Mr. JENNER. When did that marriage take place, to the best of your -recollection? - -Mr. OSWALD. 1944 or early '45. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you present on that occasion? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you become acquainted with him prior to the time of the -marriage of your mother to Mr. Ekdahl? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I certainly did. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you indicate the general circumstances? - -Mr. OSWALD. Well, we was residing at Dallas, Tex. I don't recall the -address. It was Victor Street. - -Mr. JENNER. When you say "we"---- - -Mr. OSWALD. It was my mother, John Edward Pic, myself, and Lee Harvey -Oswald. - -Residing at the Victor Street address, in Dallas, Tex. I recall that -perhaps more numerous occasions he was there--now I can say three or -four times he was around the house prior to the marriage. - -Mr. JENNER. And what was the nature of your mother's employment, if she -was employed, in the period immediately preceding the marriage of your -mother to Mr. Ekdahl? - -Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry, sir, I don't remember. - -Mr. JENNER. But she was employed? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I do recall that this was quite a large house. It -was a two-story house. And she was renting apartments. - -Mr. JENNER. Serving as a rental agent? - -Mr. OSWALD. No. She owned the house, to my knowledge--she owned this -house. I believe there were two upstairs apartments. - -Mr. JENNER. In addition to that, was your mother separately or -independently employed--that is independently from---- - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe so, sir. Where, I do not recall. - -Mr. JENNER. And at that time all three of you boys were -attending--would that be elementary school at that time? - -Mr. OSWALD. Elementary school, that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. In Dallas? - -Mr. OSWALD. Lee was not. - -Mr. JENNER. I beg your pardon? - -Mr. OSWALD. This would have been prior to Lee's sixth birthday, I -believe, and he would not be attending at that particular time. - -Mr. JENNER. But you and your brother John were? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough to tell the Commission as much as -you can recall, especially of your early life--elementary school days. -We are not going to probe into this in any great length. But we would -like the background and flavor in which the family lived. - -Start as early as you have any reasonable recollection. - -Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. - -I believe after my father's death in 1939, John was attending -elementary school. We lived at the corner of Alvar and Galvez, in -New Orleans, La. And the school was right across the street from us, -elementary school. - -John, of course, started---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir. - -Did I ask you where you were born? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, you did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you state that? - -Mr. OSWALD. I was born in New Orleans, La. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Excuse the interruption. - -Mr. OSWALD. John attended the school approximately 2 years before I -started elementary school. And during this time, the way I remember it, -it was a frame building. But by the time I attended first grade it was -a brick school building. - -I do not recall attending for a very long period, because I believe---- - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the name of the elementary school? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may interrupt at this time--Robert, in -giving this narrative, tie it down as closely as you possibly can to -date, to names, to street addresses--just give us as complete detail as -you possibly can. - -Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. - -Mr. McKENZIE. The names of the school, the names of your teachers, and -so forth, if you recall. - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe I was at the point that I don't recall attending -this school very much. I perhaps was there the first full year. -However, approximately around this time--this would be in 1941--mother -placed John Edward and myself in a Catholic school, which I do not -recall the name of, but it was located in Algiers, La. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that a suburb of New Orleans? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Just across the Mississippi River from New Orleans proper. - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question, Mr. Jenner? - -In this school, did you live there, and spend the night there--you were -living there all the time? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Or were you going home? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; we were living there. - -Lee, of course, at this time, was still very young, and he stayed with -mother. I don't recall any address particularly at that time. We were -at the Catholic school for approximately 1 year. - -Mr. JENNER. That would take you to 1942. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -And, at that time we were moved by mother from the Catholic school and -placed into the Bethlehem Orphan Home, in New Orleans, La. - -We used to refer to it as the BOH. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir, if I interrupt you at that point. - -That would be 1942? - -Mr. OSWALD. The best I can remember. - -Mr. JENNER. Lee was only 3 years old. So the "we" did not include Lee, -is that correct, sir? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. It included John Edward and myself. - -Mr. JENNER. As Mr. Dulles inquired of you at the Catholic school--was -this an orphan home in which both you and John lived at the home? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Twenty-four hours a day? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Where did Lee reside during this period of your life? - -Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall the address at that particular time. - -I might state that I know mother had sold the house on Alvar and Galvez -Streets in New Orleans, and they were living elsewhere, I remember the -house, but I cannot remember the address. - -Mr. JENNER. I was particularly interested in whether Lee was living -with your mother. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. He was at this time living with mother. And it -is my understanding from her, during later years, discussing with her, -that she had various maids or housekeepers come in to keep Lee at this -early age. - -Mr. JENNER. So, I take it, she was employed. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was she also employed during the 1 year when you boys were -at the Catholic school? - -Mr. OSWALD. I am sure--I feel sure she was, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Could we say, except as I might return to the subject -specifically, that from the time of the death of your father, in August -of 1939, at least until the time of her marriage with Mr. Ekdahl, she -was always employed, either continuously or with short breaks? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we certainly can. - -Mr. JENNER. She was the sole support, as far as you know, of your -family? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -I interrupted you--pardon me. - -You and John entered the Bethlehem Orphan Home. Would you describe to -us the nature of that school? - -Mr. OSWALD. Well---- - -Mr. JENNER. Was it a public or private institution? - -Mr. OSWALD. I would say it was a private home. The atmosphere -generally--of course all the boys and girls were separated--I recall -just one large dormitory building, sleeping area and so forth. The -cafeteria was located---- - -Mr. DULLES. Could you tell us about how many there were in this -orphanage, roughly? Was it 50, 100, 200? - -Mr. OSWALD. I would say around 75 to 100, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. So you are now about 8 years old, am I correct? - -Mr. OSWALD. 1942--that would be correct, sir. - -The cafeteria was located in a separate, or perhaps a wing of this -large dormitory building. The school area was located in a separate -building towards the entrance of the home. There was quite a large -playground there, and quite a large playroom within that large -dormitory. - -Mr. McKENZIE. The home itself was located in New Orleans, is that -correct? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. In the city proper, rather than a suburb? - -Mr. OSWALD. I would say that was so, sir. I still recall that it was -pretty close to the end of the St. Charles Street carline at that -particular time. - -My recollection of the atmosphere and the general conditions there--it -was nice, I had a lot of friends there at the home. It was a Christian -atmosphere. - -Going back to the Catholic school--we had to go to church every morning -and so forth like that. - -But here at the tables and so forth we had our grace and such as that. -It was generally a Christian atmosphere there. He treated us well, I -might add--better than the Catholic school did. They were not as strict -as far as discipline was concerned, but they certainly kept us in line. - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question there? - -Was this a denominational school, or a publicly maintained school? - -Mr. OSWALD. I don't believe it was a denominational school. I believe -it was a public--I feel it was a private school or home. But that the -religious background did not have anything to do with it. It might have -been just a Protestant home. - -Mr. JENNER. I am curious, if I may, Mr. Dulles--the name of this school -or home is the Bethlehem Orphan Home. But neither of you boys was an -orphan. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, that apart from the name of the school, -there were orphans and young people, children such as you, whose -mothers, or perhaps fathers, were unable to take care of them during -the daytime completely, and the school accepted children under those -circumstances. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is my understanding. - -Mr. JENNER. Therefore, it was not exclusively for orphans? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. I think I have read somewhere--I would like to ask, if I -may--I understand there had to be only one parent, though. I don't -think if you had two parents you were eligible for this school. I -don't know where I read that, but I recollect that. - -Is that the case, do you remember? - -Mr. OSWALD. My recollection on that, sir, was that I do recall mother -saying something that there was a little difficulty in placing us in -there, because we were not orphans. But that they had from time to -time made exceptions to this, where one parent was living and unable -to attend the children fully during the day and so forth, and even at -night. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you entered in 1942. Did you and John continue in this -school--for what period of time? - -Mr. OSWALD. Until we moved to Dallas, in 1944, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Before we get to that, has Mr. Oswald responded to the -questions you had in mind, to describe the nature of the school? - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you visited by your mother and Lee to the extent that -she brought him along, when you and John were in the Bethlehem Orphan -Home? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we were. I do recall quite vividly that on -Wednesdays--this perhaps might have been during the summer months -only--that John and I would go to downtown New Orleans and meet mother -at her place of employment, and either spend the afternoon with her, or -she would give us money to go to a movie or something. And at this time -mother was employed as a manager or assistant manager of a hosiery shop -located on Canal Street. I don't recall the name of it, or the exact -address of it. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough to inform the Commission to the -best of your recollection about weekends? Did your mother visit you on -weekends? Were you free to return home and spend the weekend? Describe -that, please. - -Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall on the weekends--a weekend, I should -say, that we visited mother. Normally, we just saw her once a week -at that particular time. I do not recall--I have been thinking about -this--seeing Lee too often at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. You and John would be naturally curious to see him once in -awhile? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I know we did. I cannot remember it too clearly. - -But I would say that it wasn't too frequently that we did see Lee. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you moved to Dallas in 1944? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there anything unusual prior to the time you moved to -Dallas about your life and your relationships with your mother and with -Lee, if any? Was there an event that is now etched on your mind? - -Mr. OSWALD. I would like to back up there just a little bit. - -Lee was placed at the Bethlehem Orphan Home for approximately the last -year that we were there. - -Mr. JENNER. That would be, then, 1943? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mr. DULLES. He would have been 4 to 5 years old then? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. He was born in October 1939. So he would then be -approximately 4--well, when he was placed in Bethlehem Home it was some -time during the year 1943, to the best of your recollection? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough to relate to the Commission the -circumstances that brought that about? What do you recall as to why? - -Mr. OSWALD. My opinion on that, sir, was this. That mother had wanted -to bring Lee to the home at an earlier date, but that they had a -minimum age required before he could be placed in there, because they -did not have any real small children there. I mean there was no nursery -there that I recall. And there was no very young children. When I say -very young--say under 3 years old. - -I remember some children there that perhaps were four or three and a -half years old. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it, Mr. Oswald, your mother put Lee in the orphan -home at the first opportunity open to her under the rules or policy of -the Bethlehem Orphan Home in that respect. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, did she come to visit the home when Lee was placed in -the home? - -If I may, you recall you said you were free on Wednesdays, it may have -been limited to the summer time, and you and John would go into the New -Orleans town district and visit your mother. - -Did she come to see Lee? Does that stimulate your recollection that she -did come to visit? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she did come to visit us. I recall after Lee -was placed in the home, that all three of us would go down and visit -mother, and we always took Lee with us. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. What contact did you have with Lee in that 1-year -period, in 1943, when he was with you boys in the home? - -Mr. OSWALD. John and I both looked on Lee as our kid brother, and we -stayed pretty close to him, and defended him whenever we had to. - -Mr. JENNER. How did Lee get along during those days? - -Let's confine it to up to 1944, when you moved to Dallas. - -Mr. OSWALD. I don't recall any instance where it would stand out in my -mind that he did not get along with anybody. - -Mr. JENNER. He had the normal life of a 4-year-old at that particular -time--got into his fights to the extent everyone else did? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McKENZIE. You mean at the time he was 4 years old? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. There may be others who would be interested in his course -of conduct and his reactions even at age 4. You will forgive me for -going into that. - -Mr. OSWALD. Certainly. - -Mr. JENNER. But your present recollection, as far as Lee's relationship -with other 4-year-olds or 5's or 3's, his general course of conduct, -with regard to the interplay between himself and others at or near his -age, is what you would describe as normal? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Now we are moving to Dallas in 1944. You brought out the fact that Lee -became enrolled in Bethlehem Orphan Home, because I asked you questions -whether there was anything unusual etched on your mind at that time -that had occurred up to the point of your moving to Dallas. Was there -anything else that this discussion, that is now stimulated that you -would like to report? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I cannot think of anything else. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, what was the reason you moved to Dallas? - -Mr. OSWALD. I don't really know, sir. Of course we were quite happy to -leave the Bethlehem Orphan Home. By that, I don't mean to imply that -they didn't treat us well there. But, of course, we were quite happy to -be with mother again, all of us together. - -As to the reason why mother moved us to Dallas, I do not know. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, when you moved to Dallas, you resided--can you recall -the address or at least approximately where you lived in Dallas? - -Mr. OSWALD. As I recall, it was Victor Street. It was a corner house, -a large two-story white--I feel sure it was a frame white house. The -garage was to the back side of the house. Victor Street ran in front -of the house, and another street down the side where you entered the -garage. - -Mr. JENNER. I don't think I asked you this. It is a little bit out of -order. - -Do you happen to recall your brother John's date of birth? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; you did ask me that. It was January 17, 1932. -Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Thank you. - -Your mother, did she become immediately employed in Dallas, or had she -already arranged for employment in Dallas? - -Mr. OSWALD. This I do not recall, sir. I feel more like that she -perhaps had arranged for employment in Dallas before we moved there. I -would think this would be the natural thing to do. We had never been to -Texas before. And, to my knowledge, she didn't know anybody in Texas. - -And why we moved to Dallas, I certainly don't recall any reason at all. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any relatives in Dallas? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Where did Mr. Ekdahl reside? Was he living in or a native -of Dallas? - -Mr. OSWALD. I understand Mr. Ekdahl was from Boston, Mass., and he -was at that time--I believe that is correct, sir--at least the way I -remember it--employed by the Texas Electric Co. - -Mr. JENNER. At what office? - -Mr. OSWALD. At Dallas. It might not have been Texas Electric. Texas -Power and Light, perhaps--something like that. - -Mr. JENNER. But Mr. Ekdahl was then living in Dallas when you, your -mother, your brother John, and your brother Lee moved to Dallas? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And had you become--you boys become acquainted with Mr. -Ekdahl prior to the time you moved to Dallas? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And do you recall any discussion of Mr. Ekdahl prior to the -time of your moving to Dallas? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, your education was, of course, continued when you -moved to Dallas. - -Would you tell us about that--all three of you? You and your brother -John first, because Lee was not yet of school age. - -Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. - -I recall the elementary school there in Dallas. It was the Davy -Crockett Elementary School, which was approximately three or four -blocks from the house. - -Mr. DULLES. What was that name? - -Mr. OSWALD. Davy Crockett. - -Mr. JENNER. Both you and your brother John were enrolled? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And there was--I believe it was a city park right -across the street from this elementary school that I recall playing -ping pong and croquet and swimming over there, and such as that. - -Mr. JENNER. This period of your life, as you recall it, was a pleasant -one? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And except for the restrictions that you and John -encountered in the Catholic school and in the Bethlehem Orphan Home, -what is your recollection of that early period of your life--subject to -those limitations--normal and pleasant? - -Mr. OSWALD. The only thing I can remember--I did have a little -difficulty because I had something of a southern drawl. - -Mr. JENNER. When you reached Texas? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And I do recall having a little difficulty in -school myself, to make myself clearly understood. - -Mr. DULLES. May I ask a question there? - -When you went to the Davy Crockett School, was that a school where you -lived, or did you live at home and just attend the school during the -school hours? - -Mr. OSWALD. That was a public school in Dallas, and we did not live -there. We lived at home. - -Mr. DULLES. And your mother then was employed, as I understand it. - -Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my knowledge--I feel certain she was -employed. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the nature of her employment there? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. JENNER. She was employed full-time during the daytime, home on -weekends? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, what was happening to Lee when you were living in -Dallas--in the sense of who took care of him during the daytime, if -anyone? What was done for his comfort? - -Mr. OSWALD. This I don't remember, sir. I don't remember any -housekeeper or any maid that mother had at this time. Something is -coming into my mind about a day nursery. I think perhaps---- - -Mr. JENNER. A day nursery? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--that Lee was taken to during the day when Mother -was working, and brought home with her at night. I believe that is -correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you boys take him to the day nursery and bring him -home? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you play any part in that at all? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not have any recollection of taking Lee to -the day nursery or bringing him back. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please indicate how long you remained in the -Davy Crockett Elementary School, you and John? - -Mr. OSWALD. Say for 1 year, sir, 1 school year. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Now, during this year, did you become acquainted with Mr. Ekdahl? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I would say towards the latter part of that -school year. - -Mr. JENNER. He could come--he did on occasion come to visit your -mother's home? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you please indicate whether the contact that you -boys had with Mr. Ekdahl about that--that is, he would visit the home -occasionally? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he take you boys out? - -Mr. OSWALD. I don't recall. I think perhaps on maybe two occasions we -did go to the zoo. I don't recall any other occasions. - -Mr. JENNER. We now have you towards the latter part of the year--you -were now 9 years old. Am I correct about that? - -Mr. OSWALD. 1944, I would be 10 years old. - -Mr. JENNER. Your brother John was 12? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And your brother Lee was then 5? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you continue--when did you change--you said you stayed -at Davy Crockett Elementary School a year. And then you entered what -school? - -Mr. OSWALD. In the fall of that year we entered Chamberlain-Hunt -Military Academy, at Port Gibson, Miss. That was the fall of 1945. - -Mr. JENNER. You and John? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, what was the date that you gave me as to the marriage -of your mother and Mr. Ekdahl? - -Mr. OSWALD. Approximately the early part of 1944. That is what I -stated before. And I think now that it would be more correct--after -we completed the year at Davy Crockett, I believe they were married -shortly after the end of the school year. - -Mr. JENNER. That is in June, probably? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; somewhere along that time. - -Mr. JENNER. And that would be--June of '44? - -Mr. McKENZIE. June of '45. - -Mr. JENNER. So that following the marriage of your mother and Mr. -Ekdahl--what was his full name? - -Mr. OSWALD. Edwin A. Ekdahl. I believe his middle initial was "A." - -Mr. JENNER. And he was employed, as you stated, by a utility company in -Dallas at that time? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, do you have a recollection or did you come to learn -the arrangements, if any, between Mr. Ekdahl and your mother as to -the financing of the attendance of yourself and your brother John at -Chamberlain-Hunt Military Academy? - -Mr. OSWALD. My mother told us that she was taking care of all the -expenses at the Academy. - -Mr. JENNER. She told you at this time? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. This is my recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. And that was your understanding of both you and John at -that particular time? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That she was financing your attendance at the military -academy? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Was she working at that time, or during the period that she -was married to Mr. Ekdahl was she a housewife? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe after the marriage to Mr. Ekdahl, she was not -working. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have a conversation with her, and did you then come -to learn, or have you subsequently come to learn as to how she did -finance your attendance at the military academy? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. I assume at that particular time that--I -did not know the quantity of life insurance that my father had when he -passed away. I thought it was perhaps substantial. Perhaps to me at -that time, a young age, $4,000 or $5,000 was a lot of money. From the -insurance money, from my father's death, she was able to place us in -this military school in Mississippi. - -Mr. JENNER. Do I recall correctly that you also testified earlier that -your mother sold--there was a home in New Orleans which was sold? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And possibly some of the proceeds of the sale of that home -were still intact? - -Mr. OSWALD. This would be my opinion, that it was. I do not know if the -home was paid for or anything. - -Mr. JENNER. This is all speculation? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may interrupt. - -Robert, don't speculate, and don't give any conjecture. Tell what you -know, and give them the facts as fully as possible. But I am confident -that the Commission is not interested in any speculation. - -Mr. JENNER. And if you do speculate, tell us so. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes--indicate that you are speculating. - -Mr. DULLES. Do we know the amount of insurance on Mr. Oswald's life? - -Mr. JENNER. I cannot give you the figure, but it is small. - -Mr. DULLES. It is known in the record? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. May I ask a question? - -Following your mother's marriage to Mr. Ekdahl, did he move in to -the residence where you were living, or vice versa, or what were the -circumstances? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. He did move into the home on Victor Street, -following the marriage. - -Mr. DULLES. You were living, though, in the military academy. Was that -a school where you lived? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. You lived there? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Day and night? - -Mr. OSWALD. During the period that we went to the military school, we -stayed there day and night, through the 9 months of the school year. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the distance from Dallas--in general--to the -military school? - -Mr. McKENZIE. It is approximately 600 or 700 miles. - -Mr. OSWALD. It was 30 miles south of Vicksburg, Miss. - -Mr. JENNER. Quite a distance? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. So you could not go home weekends? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; we did not go home weekends. - -Mr. JENNER. From the time of the marriage of your mother to Mr. Ekdahl, -to the time you boys left for military school, you all lived in the -home on Victor Street? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. He moved into the home immediately upon the marriage? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question? - -Was there a summer holiday, then, when you went home from the military -academy? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. You were home for 3 months, roughly? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. DULLES. That would be in the summer of '45? - -Mr. OSWALD. The summer of '46. - -Mr. JENNER. It might help if you tell us how long you and John remained -at the military school. - -Mr. OSWALD. Three school years. - -Mr. JENNER. That would be in 1945, 1946, and 1947. - -So that you left the military school approximately in June of 1947, is -that correct? - -Mr. OSWALD. That would be correct. - -Mr. JENNER. '48 or '47? - -Mr. OSWALD. Well, the school year would be 1945 through '46 would be 1 -year, '46 through '47 would be 2 years, '47 through '48 would be the -third year. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. June of '48? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And I might say there, when school--the last year -that we were there, when school was completed, mother had indicated -to us that she wanted us to go to summer school and stay up there -that summer. And we did, John and I, stay there at the school after -practically all the other ones had left, because I recall helping pack -away some old Springfield rifles at that time in Cosmolene. - -Mr. JENNER. The marriage of your mother and Mr. Ekdahl terminated in -divorce, as I recall it. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall approximately when that was? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I believe that this would be some time in '47. -I believe she had divorced Mr. Ekdahl before our final year at the -academy. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Liebeler will get the date. I don't recall it myself at -the moment. - -Did your mother and Mr. Ekdahl have occasion during this 3-year period, -plus the summer school, to visit you and John in the military academy? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they did. I recall Mr. Ekdahl coming there with -mother and Lee in a 1939 Buick at that time, that I recall. I don't -recall many occasions that Mr. Ekdahl was there. I might state that at -Christmas time I believe on each year that we were up at the military -school that we returned home. By home, I mean Fort Worth, or wherever -they were living. One year I believe it was Benbrook, Tex., outside of -Fort Worth. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, would you be good enough, having mentioned that, to -state for the record where your mother and Mr. Ekdahl resided during -the period of time you were at the military school? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe the first year---- - -Mr. JENNER. Chronologically. - -Mr. OSWALD. The first year that we attended there, Mr. Ekdahl was on -the road quite a bit. And they had during the winter of 1945 gone to -Boston, where they stayed, I would say, for approximately 6 months. -I understand Mr. Ekdahl had been married and had a son by a prior -marriage, and they had lived together, all of them--Lee, my mother, Mr. -Ekdahl, and his son--in Boston. But that he was on the road quite a -bit. And I recall a picture of mother and Lee in Arizona. - -Mr. JENNER. Living in Arizona? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not living. On one of the trips. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Representative FORD. One of the trips with Mr. Ekdahl? - -Mr. OSWALD. Ekdahl, and mother and Lee had gone along with him. Whether -this was a business trip or a vacation trip, I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Following their living for 6 months in Boston, where did they live -thereafter, during that period of time, until the divorce? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe after they left Massachusetts, they moved to -Benbrook, Tex., and resided at Benbrook, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. And where is Benbrook with respect to Dallas? - -Mr. OSWALD. It is--well, with respect to Fort Worth, that to me would -be easier to say, it is just a little ways northwest of Fort Worth, -on the edge of the city limits of Fort Worth now. At this particular -time it was just more or less a wide spot in the road. The house--I -recall going there, perhaps this was during Christmas leave from the -academy--the house was a good sized stone home that had some acreage -with it. There was a creek that was perhaps 400 or 500 yards behind the -house. I remember, I believe, right before we arrived on this first -occasion, Lee had found a skunk out there. He didn't know what a skunk -was, but he found out. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Benbrook is a suburb of Fort Worth. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, Benbrook is a suburb of Fort Worth. - -As I indicated, at that time---- - -Mr. JENNER. Could you fix the year? - -Mr. OSWALD. This would be--I feel certain that this was the first year -that we were in military school, and the first Christmas. - -Mr. JENNER. The first Christmas. That would be Christmas 1945. - -Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me. Let me back up earlier. - -They were in Massachusetts at that time. - -This would be the second year. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, the first Christmas, 1945, included the -period when your mother, Mr. Ekdahl, and Lee resided in Boston with Mr. -Ekdahl's son by a former marriage. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And that the living in Benbrook, Tex., followed the -termination of the stay in Boston? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -But I do recall now the first Christmas that I was at the military -school, because they were so far away, and it was impractical to travel -that distance in that length of time--that John went with some friends -of his that he made at the academy and stayed at their home--I don't -recall where. - -I remember I went with one of my friends and stayed at his home during -Christmas. - -Mr. JENNER. These were friends of yours in the academy? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. And their parents agreed to that--because -they didn't want us to stay up in the academy at Christmas time more or -less by ourselves. They wanted to have us with them. - -Mr. JENNER. You seem to have a rather vivid recollection of the -Benbrook, Tex., home. I take it that during a summer vacation you lived -in Benbrook, Tex., with your mother and Mr. Ekdahl and Lee. - -Mr. OSWALD. This particular house I refer to, a native stone home--I -believe that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. So that you did have at least two summers at home while you -were at the military academy, and the third summer your mother asked -you to stay during summer school, and you did not come home? - -Mr. OSWALD. She asked us, and it was the intent that we stay. But -at the last moment we did not go to summer school that year at the -academy. We did come to Fort Worth. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, may I interrupt you please? - -Robert, when did you leave, or when did your mother sell the house on -Victor Street in Dallas. Tex., if you recall? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe she sold it at the time that they moved to -Boston, Mass. - -Mr. McKENZIE. That was some time prior to Christmas of 1945, is that -correct? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -If I may ask this, sir: If someone would furnish me the date of the -divorce. I believe this would help tie down some other dates. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. McKENZIE. I want to assure the Commission and counsel that the copy -of the transcript of Robert Oswald's testimony will not be given to the -press until such time as the Commission makes its final report--if at -that time. - -Representative FORD. I think that is most important, that we don't -indicate that they will never be given to the press. - -Mr. DULLES. No. That was made clear before you came in--that this would -be available for use in connection with the report in any way that the -Commission saw fit. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it all right to proceed, sir? - -Mr. DULLES. Yes, please, Mr. Jenner. - -Mr. JENNER. The second residence, then, was--I mean the second one -during this particular period we were talking about, was in Benbrook, -Tex. - -How long, or over what period of time did your family reside in -Benbrook, Tex.? - -Mr. OSWALD. I would say at least approximately a year or a year and a -half at that particular house. - -Mr. JENNER. You say in that particular house. Did they occupy another -home in Benbrook, Tex.? - -Mr. OSWALD. This was--on our return from military school, the last year -we attended, when we returned, mother had purchased a small home there -in Benbrook, a little bit closer in to Fort Worth. - -Mr. DULLES. This was after the divorce? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; this was after the divorce. - -Representative FORD. She owned the original house in Benbrook? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not the stone house. I believe Mr. Ekdahl had -rented that house, or leased it. - -Representative FORD. Then she purchased this second house? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is right. After the divorce, she purchased this -smaller home. - -Mr. JENNER. Until you boys returned from military academy, or at least -until the time of the divorce of your mother and Mr. Ekdahl, she was -not employed? She was home? - -Mr. OSWALD. To my knowledge, that is correct. She was not employed at -that time, or during the marriage to Mr. Ekdahl--she was not employed -at any time I am aware of. - -Mr. JENNER. And able to give the normal and full time and attention of -a mother to her son, Lee? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, to the best of my knowledge. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, during the summertime, when you did spend summer -vacations back in Benbrook, Tex., you had an opportunity to observe -personally on this subject, did you not? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That your mother was not employed, and she was caring for -Lee during that period? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she have any assistance? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, she did not. None that I recall. - -Mr. JENNER. No household help? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; none that I recall. - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question there? Maybe you are going to cover -that. I would like to ask as to--was Lee Harvey going to kindergarten -at this time, or where was he from an educational point of view? - -He was 7 or 8 years old now. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. He was 8 years old--he was 6 years old when they moved -to--the commencement of the military school period, your brother, Lee, -was 6 years old? - -Mr. OSWALD. Six years old. - -Mr. JENNER. And that is about the time when you enter elementary -school, is it not? - -Mr. OSWALD. That I entered elementary school? - -Mr. JENNER. No--children generally. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -I don't believe, however, though, that Lee at the age of 6 went to -elementary school. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us what the circumstances were in that -connection, to the best of your recollection, and now. - -Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. To the best of my recollection, it was that -Mr. Ekdahl was traveling quite a bit, and that mother was traveling -with him, and Lee did not attend a school during that year. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Lee travel with them? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe that he did during that time. - -Mr. JENNER. That is your best recollection? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is my best recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. You are trying not to speculate. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. JENNER. Back on the record. - -Mr. McKENZIE. I believe, to my best recollection, that the school -age--commencement age was 7 years old. - -Mr. DULLES. I think what we are trying to get at is what was Lee -doing--was he with the mother, was he in some kind of kindergarten? - -Do you recall during those 3 years you were in the military -academy--where was Lee? - -Representative FORD. When you say the school age, in Texas, you mean -the mandatory attendance age? - -Mr. JAWORSKI. That is correct. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, that is what I have reference to. - -Mr. JAWORSKI. I recall, if I may add, at the age of 6, children were -normally sent to kindergarten in those days. - -Mr. JENNER. As you have now related it to us, Mr. Oswald, in this -period, let's call it the military school period because we have -identified the time question--at the commencement Lee was then 6 years -old. And as we now learn, normally that would be a kindergarten period. - -He was traveling or accompanied his mother, your mother, and Mr. Ekdahl -in their travels in connection with Mr. Ekdahl's business, and he was -not either in kindergarten or otherwise in school. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am of this opinion--he was not. - -Mr. JENNER. And that was your information at the time that you and John -were attending military school? - -Mr. OSWALD. That would be correct, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you know where he was, and who was taking care of him -during that period--if your mother was traveling with Mr. Ekdahl? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe Lee was going with them, sir, during these -travels. I don't recall--other than this one photograph--at one time -they were out in Arizona. I don't recall any other places that they -traveled to. I am sure mother, she was writing us quite frequently, -John and I, usually just one letter to both of us--any other names or -areas that they had traveled during this period. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, may we proceed to the succeeding school period, which -would be the year '46-'47. He is now at that time 7 years of age. Your -mother and Mr. Ekdahl and Lee were then residing in Benbrook, Tex. - -Mr. OSWALD. Benbrook; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Lee enter elementary school at that time? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did. I don't know if the school name was -Benbrook School. - -Mr. JENNER. It was an elementary school? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I know where it is located there and everything. -I believe it is closed down now. - -Mr. JENNER. You learned of this during the summer vacation, or from -letters from your mother? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--perhaps both--one way or the other during that -period we were aware that Lee was attending school in Benbrook. - -Mr. JENNER. Up to this point what were the relationships between -yourself and your brother John? Cordial and normal brother -relationships? - -Mr. OSWALD. I might say then as now they were cordial. We always got -along. He was a little bit older than I was, of course. He had his -group of friends, I had mine. We got along just fine. - -Mr. JENNER. And the relationship of your brother John and yourself -on the one hand, and Lee on the other--let us take the 6- to 7- to -8-year-old period. - -Mr. OSWALD. John and I both, I feel, especially from my side, that we -were his big brothers, and when we were around Lee we took care of him. -We played together, to some extent, anyway. Perhaps our interests were -a little bit different than Lee's at that early age of his life--a -spread of 5 years between Lee and I and 7 years between Lee and John. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. That is quite a gap. - -A boy 6 years old who has a brother 11 years old--that would be -you--and a brother 13 years old, that would be John--at that age, that -is quite a gap. - -Did you spend much time with him, for example, when you were home -during the summer vacations? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I would say we did spend quite a bit of -time--both John and I--with Lee. - -I recall going fishing, things like that. But mostly I recall staying -at the house at Benbrook, the native stone home, out there, and staying -within the confines out there, and playing, and staying out there most -of the time. - -I do recall on a number of occasions that Mr. Ekdahl, my mother, -and all three of us would drive into Fort Worth and go to the movie -theater, which at that time was the closest one coming in from Benbrook -into Fort Worth. I recall going there quite a few times. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you relate for us as you recall now the relationships -between you and John--between you boys and your mother? Was that -a pleasant one? Were there any difficulties that you now recall? -Personality-wise, for example. - -Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall. At that time, I do recall one instance -out there at the house, stone house there in Benbrook--my mother was a -little upset with Mr. Ekdahl over the fact that--this was, I am sure, -the second Christmas we were there from military school. - -Mr. JENNER. That would be 1947? - -Mr. OSWALD. That would be 1947, Christmas 1946. He was showering us -with candies, cokes, and so forth. And mother thought that he was -overdoing it. And we argued the other way. We was on Mr. Ekdahl's side. - -Mr. JENNER. But your relations with your mother, as you recall them -now, during this period were pleasant, normal, and you were having no -difficulties with her? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; pleasant memories to me. - -Mr. JENNER. Anything other than the difficulties two lively boys have -when they are naughty? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Were you conscious at that time of the growing difficulty -between your mother and Mr. Ekdahl? Was that apparent at that time? Or -did that only come later? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. At that time, it was not apparent to me. - -Mr. DULLES. At no time was that a factor in your life, particularly? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I would say at no time it was. In moving up -perhaps there to the time of the divorce and everything, I don't -remember when Mr. Ekdahl moved out of the house. At that time we were -living on Eighth Avenue in Fort Worth. This was during a summer period -there. And I think this was the summer after the second year that we -attended there--this would be the summer of 1947. - -Mr. DULLES. If it is agreeable, I think we will adjourn for just a -minute. It is now 11 o'clock. - -Representative FORD. Mr. Dulles, may I suggest that we get what the law -was in Texas at the time, as to when children mandatorily had to attend -school? I think that can be checked out very simply and put in the -record. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. I think that should be in the record. - -(Brief recess.) - -Mr. DULLES. The Commission will come to order. We will resume, Mr. -Jenner, with your questions. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you. - -It may well be, Mr. Chairman, that the Exhibits 272 through 275, which -although already admitted in evidence, may play some part in these -proceedings at some future date. And may I further qualify the exhibits. - -Mr. DULLES. Certainly. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. McKenzie, would you be good enough to hand them to the -witness? - -Would you turn to the second page of Exhibit No. 272, Mr. Oswald? Are -you familiar with the signatures on the second page of that exhibit? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, I am. - -Mr. JENNER. And would you identify them, please, in the order in which -they appear, and state whether or not they are the signatures of the -persons who purported to have signed? - -Mr. OSWALD. My signature, Robert L. Oswald, I signed it. Witnessed by -Henry Baer, Joan Connelly, and Pete White. And they are known to me. - -Mr. JENNER. Did they affix those signatures in your presence? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they did. - -Mr. JENNER. And they are persons known to you? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you identify them for the record? - -Mr. OSWALD. Mr. Henry Baer is a partner in William A. McKenzie's law -firm, in Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. He is Mr. McKenzie's partner? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes. - -Miss Joan Connelly is the secretary in that firm. - -And Mr. Pete White is an associate partner in the law firm of Mr. -McKenzie. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, that that document was executed in Mr. -McKenzie's office. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Now, Mr. Jenner, may I interrupt at this point? I would -like to add for the record that I was not present at the time that this -letter was executed or witnessed. However, I did dictate it in the -presence of Mr. Oswald and, of course, to my secretary, and, of course, -to my partner, Henry Baer. - -Mr. JENNER. Is Miss Connelly your secretary? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, would you take the second letter in that group, and -give me the exhibit number--turn to the exhibit page and identify the -situation similarly, if you are acquainted with them, and state whether -it was signed in your presence and where. - -Mr. OSWALD. Commission Exhibit No. 273--I was not present when this -letter was signed. - -Mr. JENNER. Does the letter bear your signature? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it does not. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with the signatures of those who purported -to have signed it? - -Mr. OSWALD. I am not familiar with the signature--I am familiar with -the signature of Mrs. Marina N. Oswald. I am not familiar with the -signature of Mr. Declan P. Ford or his wife, Katherine N. Ford. - -I am familiar with the signature of Joan Connelly, Mr. McKenzie's -secretary. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you please identify who Mr. and Mrs. Ford are? - -Mr. OSWALD. The best way I could do that, I believe, is that they -are friends of Marina N. Oswald. I became acquainted with Mrs. Ford -on Wednesday 2 weeks ago, whatever date that is, and Mr. Ford the -following day. - -Mr. JENNER. What were the circumstances under which you became -acquainted with Mrs. Ford? - -Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me just a minute. - -I would like to correct that. - -It was Tuesday rather than Wednesday 2 weeks ago that I first became -acquainted with Mrs. Ford. - -At that time, Mrs. Ford acted as an interpreter between Mr. Thorne and -myself to relate to Mrs. Marina Oswald what we were talking about. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir. You mentioned a Mr. Thorne? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That is Mr. John Thorne who at that time was the attorney -for Mrs. Marina Oswald? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And where did this take place? - -Mr. OSWALD. At my residence, at 1009 Sierra Drive, Denton, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. Who was present at that time in addition to yourself, Mr. -Thorne, and Mrs. Ford? - -Mr. OSWALD. My wife, Vada Marie Oswald, was present. - -Mr. JENNER. And your acquaintance with Mr. Ford, you say, was the -following day? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Where did that take place, and in whose presence? - -Mr. OSWALD. At my residence, again, in Denton, Tex., in the presence of -my wife, Vada, Mrs. Marina Oswald, and Mrs. Kathy Ford. - -Mr. JENNER. As to Mrs. Ford, it is 2 weeks ago last Tuesday, or 2 weeks -ago today? - -Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me just a minute. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Two weeks ago this past Tuesday. - -Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me. - -Mr. JENNER. I wish you would hesitate and make reasonably certain of -this. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe I have erred here. - -Instead of being 2 weeks ago this past Tuesday, it was a week ago -Tuesday that I first met Kathy Ford. And it was the following day, on -that Wednesday, that I met Mr. Ford. In other words, I wish to correct -it was not 2 weeks ago, but 1 week ago. - -Mr. JENNER. Now that you have a calendar before you, would you give us -the date so we will have it in the record now? - -Mr. OSWALD. On Tuesday, February 11, 1964, was the day I first met Mrs. -Kathy Ford in the presence of Mr. John Thorne and my wife, Vada, in my -home in Denton, Tex. - -On February 12th I met Mr. Ford in the presence of my wife in my -residence at Denton, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. Returning to the exhibit to which you have been directing -your attention, which is No. 273, you were able to identify Mrs. Marina -Oswald's signature, and Miss Connelly's? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. The others you were unable to identify? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Would you turn, then, to the next exhibit, give us the number? - -Mr. OSWALD. Commission Exhibit No. 274. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it signed on its face? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, then, directing your attention to the first page of -the exhibit, does it bear a signature? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with that signature? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am. - -Mr. JENNER. Whose signature is it? - -Mr. OSWALD. Mr. William A. McKenzie. - -Mr. JENNER. This is the Mr. McKenzie present here representing you? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And does that exhibit consist of more than 1 page? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does. - -Mr. JENNER. Turn to the second page. Does it bear a signature? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with those signatures? - -Mr. OSWALD. The two signatures appear on the second page. One I am -familiar with--Mrs. Marina Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir. Is that the first of those that are in a -series? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And you are familiar with that, and that is her signature? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. The next signature purports to be that of whom? - -Mr. OSWALD. Mrs. Katherine Ford. - -Mr. JENNER. And your testimony, if I repeated the questions that I did -as to the previous exhibit, regarding Mrs. Ford, would be the same? You -are not familiar with her signature? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And the next signature, please? - -Mr. OSWALD. Sir? - -Mr. JENNER. The next signature? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is the only two signatures that appear on that second -page. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you proceed to the next exhibit? - -Mr. OSWALD. 275. - -Mr. JENNER. That consists of how many pages? - -Mr. OSWALD. Two pages. - -Mr. JENNER. Does it bear a signature on the first page? - -Mr. OSWALD. There is a signature on the first page. The signature is -Mr. William A. McKenzie. - -Mr. JENNER. You are familiar with that signature, and that is his -signature? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. The same gentleman we have identified? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Are there any signatures on the second page of -that exhibit? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. There are two signatures on the second page, and -in order as they appear---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Are you familiar with either of them? - -Mr. OSWALD. I am familiar with one of them. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Let's take the first one, which is what? - -Mr. OSWALD. Mrs. Marina N. Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. You are familiar with her signature? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that her signature? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I would say that was her signature. - -Mr. JENNER. And the second name appears to be that of whom? - -Mr. OSWALD. Mrs. Katherine Ford. - -Mr. JENNER. And your testimony with respect to her, were I to pursue -it, would be the same as you testified to a previous exhibit, insofar -as your familiarity with her signature is concerned? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you, sir. - -Forgive the interruption, Mr. Chairman. - -Mr. DULLES. That is all right. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, Mr. McKenzie has produced for us and tendered -to us four documents, during the recess, which I would wish to -identify. They have a relationship to the exhibits, the signatures of -which I have just finished having identified. - -Would you mark those, please, Mr. Liebeler? - -Mr. DULLES. Do you wish these admitted as exhibits? - -Mr. JENNER. If you please, sir. I would like to identify the exhibits -and indicate their content first. - -I would call on you, Mr. McKenzie, to identify the series of exhibits. -They are numbered, Mr. Chairman, Commission Exhibits 276, 277, 278, and -279. - -If you will identify them, I may have some questions of the witness. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chairman, Exhibit No. 276 is a contract dated -December 6, 1963, addressed to Mr. James H. Martin, Dallas, Tex., and -signed by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, consisting of four pages. - -Mr. DULLES. I wish that admitted at this time with that description. - -Mr. JENNER. If I may put one question to the witness: Mr. Oswald, would -you look at the last page of that exhibit? Does it purport to bear a -signature? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with that signature? - -Mr. OSWALD. There are three signatures. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with all of them? - -Mr. OSWALD. May I ask my attorney something here? - -Mr. JENNER. Surely. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may interrupt you, and pardon me for -doing so--on page 3 there is likewise a signature. And I think perhaps -he should start at that page. - -Mr. JENNER. That is a fine suggestion. - -Will you now refer to page 3. Does it bear a signature? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with that signature? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am. - -Mr. JENNER. Whose signature is it? - -Mr. OSWALD. Mrs. Marina N. Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. Turn to page 4. There are several signatures on that page, -is that correct? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. There are three. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with any of them? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you take them in order, taking the uppermost one -first. Indicate whether you are familiar with that signature, and whose -signature it is. - -Mr. OSWALD. It is my own signature, Robert Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. The next under that? - -Mr. OSWALD. Mr. James H. Martin. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with that signature? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And it is his signature? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Who is Mr. James H. Martin? - -Mr. OSWALD. He was, at that time, when this contract was signed, -appointed as Marina's business agent. But employed at the Inn of the -Six Flags at Arlington, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. He has been identified in previous sessions before the -Commission. - -And there is a third signature? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there is. - -Mr. JENNER. And are you familiar with that signature? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am. - -Mr. JENNER. Whose is it, please? - -Mr. OSWALD. Mr. John M. Thorne, Attorney. - -Mr. JENNER. And he is the Mr. Thorne that we have identified a few -moments ago? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. He was at that time the attorney for Mrs. Marina Oswald? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there a fourth signature? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there is not. - -Mr. JENNER. Were those signatures affixed in your presence? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they were. - -Mr. DULLES. Mr. Jenner, I believe these are photostatic copies, are -they not, that are being identified? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McKenzie, would you please make a statement with respect to that? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. I was going to at this time, Mr. Jenner, -state for the record that Exhibit 276 is a photostatic copy. And this -photostatic copy was furnished to me by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald. - -Mr. DULLES. Where is the original of that? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Marina N. Oswald has the original. - -Mr. DULLES. Has that been so compared, that we know this is a true copy? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chairman. Pardon me. - -I retract that statement. - -Marina N. Oswald furnished to me a copy of this exhibit, but it was a -signed copy, and it was an original copy. - -Mr. JENNER. A duplicate original? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes. And I presume Mr. James Martin had the original, -since it is addressed to him. - -Mr. DULLES. And both the original and this duplicate bear these -signatures, do they? - -Mr. McKENZIE. I have never seen the original, sir, but I presume that -they do. And I think Robert Oswald here can clarify that, because he -was present at the time that the original was signed, and also the -duplicate copies. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. DULLES. And the duplicates were signed by the same parties as the -original? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Representative FORD. May I ask--did you get a copy of the original at -the time? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I received a copy in the mail the second day after -the signatures were signed. My copies were unsigned. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, were you present when all of the copies were -contemporaneously signed, if they were contemporaneously signed? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I was. - -Mr. JENNER. So you know of your own knowledge that what has been termed -here the original, which may be in the possession of Mr. Martin, was -signed, and was signed in your presence? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And the document which we are now discussing is a -photostatic copy of a carbon copy of the original? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Executed contemporaneously with the original? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you have any further questions? - -Mr. DULLES. No, I have no further questions. - -Shall we admit this at this time, or do you want to wait until you have -gone through them all, and then admit them all? - -Mr. JENNER. It might be more convenient to identify them all, because -they are of a series, if I have your permission. - -Mr. DULLES. Certainly. - -Mr. McKENZIE. The next document is Commission Exhibit 277, and purports -to be a photocopy, or is a photocopy of a purported contract between -Marina N. Oswald and Robert Oswald, bearing the date of December 9, -1963, and purportedly signed by Marina N. Oswald, Robert L. Oswald, -John M. Thorne, attorney, and James H. Martin, approved as to form, and -consisting of two pages. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, if you would turn to the second page, please, sir--I -notice a recital, "Executed by the undersigned parties this Ninth day -of December A.D., 1963," and what purports to be your signature. - -Was this document, or that of which this is a Xerox copy, executed on -that date? - -Mr. OSWALD. I do not have a calendar before me. If the ninth day of -December was a Monday, it was signed on that date. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Dulles is checking the calendar. - -Mr. DULLES. I am afraid I don't have a 1963 calendar here. - -Mr. JENNER. I am observing a calendar, and the ninth was a Monday. - -Mr. McKenzie, does the previous document also bear a date? - -Mr. McKENZIE. It bears the date of December 6, Mr. Jenner. - -Mr. JENNER. December 6, then, was a Saturday. - -Mr. McKENZIE. If Monday was the ninth, Friday was the sixth. - -Mr. JENNER. Was the previous exhibit, which is numbered 276, executed -on December 6th? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not. - -Mr. JENNER. On what date was it executed? - -Mr. OSWALD. It was executed on Monday, December 9th. - -Mr. JENNER. Despite its bearing a date of December 6th, it was actually -executed on the ninth, when Commission Exhibit 277 was executed? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, directing your attention to the second page of Exhibit -No. 277, that likewise bears a series of signatures. I ask you first -whether those signatures were affixed in your presence? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they were. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, was the document now identified as 277, which is a -Xerox copy--was the original of Exhibit 277 executed at the same time -as the copy which you have produced for us executed? - -Mr. OSWALD. May I have that again, please, sir? - -Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. That is, there were a series of papers, original and carbon -copies, signed, at one and the same time? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And all of them were signed in your presence? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Now, there are four signatures on that page. Would you proceed to state -your familiarity with those signatures and identify them? - -Mr. OSWALD. All right. - -Left to right, as the signatures appear--my signature, Robert L. Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. And to the right of that? - -Mr. OSWALD. And to the right of that, the signature of Mrs. Marina N. -Oswald, which I am familiar with. - -The next signature is Mr. John M. Thorne, attorney, and I am familiar -with his signature. - -And the last signature that appears on this second page, Mr. James H. -Martin. I am also familiar with his signature. - -Mr. JENNER. And these persons are the same persons you have heretofore -identified? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And is the document of which this 277 is a Xerox copy in -the same condition now as it was the time those signatures were affixed -to it? - -Mr. OSWALD. May I have a moment, sir? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that likewise true of Exhibit No. 276? - -Would you take a look at it, please? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. And if I may say this about -this--on page 3 of Exhibit 276, you will note that towards the upper -right-hand part of this page there was--on this copy, there is a dark -mark, following the word "royalties." - -Representative FORD. What page is that? - -Mr. OSWALD. Page 3, the sixth line, the word that was crossed off or -out of the contract was the word "gifts." - -Mr. JENNER. And was that done in the course of the discussion and -preceding the execution of the document? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. So the document is in the same condition it was when -executed? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you identify the next exhibit, Mr. McKenzie? - -Mr. McKENZIE. The next exhibit is a photocopy of an investment agency -agreement. It is Commission Exhibit No. 278. This exhibit bears the -date of December 30, 1963, and is an agreement by and between John -M. Thorne and James H. Martin, co-trustees, of Dallas County, Tex., -referred to in the exhibit as principal, and the First National Bank of -Fort Worth, Tex., referred to in the exhibit as agent. - -The exhibit consists of 3 pages, together with a schedule A and a -letter addressed to the Trust Department of the First National Bank of -Fort Worth, Tex. - -This exhibit is a photocopy of a photocopy of a duplicate original. - -I have seen the duplicate original upon which it had the names, -handwritten names of John M. Thorne, co-trustee, and James H. Martin, -co-trustee, as principal, on page 3, and Preston A. Utterbach, Vice -President and Trust Officer of the First National Bank of Fort Worth, -Tex. - -However, these Xerox copies of a copy, being a photocopy, do not have -the signatures on, because the second photocopy did not reproduce the -signatures. - -I have seen those. - -Mr. JENNER. The Xerox machine was unable to pick up the signatures? - -Mr. McKENZIE. No. The prior photocopy was unable to pick up the -signatures. - -Mr. DULLES. Because they had not been put on, or because they didn't -pick them up? - -Mr. McKENZIE. It would not pick them up, Mr. Dulles. The signatures -were on the instrument itself, but the photo machine would not -reproduce the signatures. - -Mr. JENNER. You actually saw the signatures? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Where did you see that document, Mr. McKenzie? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Marina N. Oswald gave it to me in my office. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you state the thrust or substance of those agreements? - -Mr. McKENZIE. The substance of it is that Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin, as -principals, constituted the First National Bank of Fort Worth as the -agent to hold certain trust funds, consisting, as shown by the exhibit, -attached to this exhibit, of $25,000. - -Mr. JENNER. It was deposited with the First National Bank of Fort Worth -under this trust and deposit agreement, agency agreement? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. - -I presume that to be true. I know Preston Utterbach. And if his -signature was on it, I know that the funds were deposited there at the -bank, or else he would not have executed it. - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask the source of these funds, if you know? - -Mr. McKENZIE. I do not know them, sir. But Marina Oswald has told me -that she felt that the funds came from contributions made to herself -and her children, from various sources, of which I know nothing. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mr. McKenzie. - -Did you use the word "felt." She told you she felt? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, I did. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the extent of your personal knowledge? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, do you have any personal knowledge, apart from -or in addition to that of Mr. McKenzie, with respect to the source of -the funds? - -Mr. OSWALD. I would say this was monies received through the mails, -and delivered in person to Mr. Thorne or perhaps Mr. Martin by various -people who wanted to contribute to Marina's welfare and her children's -welfare. - -Mr. JENNER. Upon what is your statement based? Conversations? - -Mr. OSWALD. Conversations, and also being---- - -Mr. JENNER. With whom, sir? - -Mr. OSWALD. Marina N. Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. She related this to you? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Anybody else? What about Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin? Had you had -conversations with them as to the source of these funds? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I would say that would be correct, too. - -Mr. JENNER. Did these conversations take place in the presence of Mrs. -Marina Oswald? Your conversations with Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin? - -Mr. OSWALD. Not that I recall, sir. I am thinking perhaps, when I was -aware at first that the $25,000 was to be placed in the trust fund -at the First National Bank of Fort Worth, I learned this through a -conversation on the telephone. - -Mr. JENNER. With whom? - -Mr. OSWALD. With Mr. Jim Martin. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with Mr. Martin's voice? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you call him or did he call you? - -Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. When did this take place? - -Mr. OSWALD. Approximately a week prior to the actual deposit and -setting up of the trust fund at the First National Bank in Fort Worth. - -Representative FORD. Mr. Jenner, I suggest we get a copy of the deposit -slip or some other validation of the actual amount. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you, sir. We will undertake to do that. These -documents, as I have indicated, were produced for us during the recess. -We don't have the full information. - -Perhaps, Mr. McKenzie--you have been quite helpful. You might be -further helpful to us--you might have the deposit--evidence of the -deposit. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, I wish I did have it. However, I know that -the First National Bank of Fort Worth would gladly duplicate that for -you. And I contemplate that I will be in the process of obtaining a -copy from either Mr. Thorne or Mr. Martin in the very near future, -because I have asked both of those gentlemen, on behalf of Marina -Oswald and her children, for a full and complete accounting as of -February 18, 1964, and I will likewise say that she has informed me up -until February 18, 1964, she has had no accounting from either of those -gentlemen. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there another exhibit? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. - -The next exhibit, Mr. Jenner, is Commission Exhibit No. 279, which is -a Xerox copy of a power of attorney granted to the firm of Thorne and -Leach, attorneys and counselors at law, bearing the date of December -5, 1963, in which it has three--I presume these are omissions from the -exhibit--commencing on line 4, following the words "trust funds", there -is an omission, and then the word "bequests", and then there is another -omission, and on line 5, at the beginning of that line, there is an -omission. - -Mr. DULLES. What is the nature of the omissions? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Dulles, I have been told that the word "gifts" was -omitted. The word "gift" was originally in it. But I have been told the -word "gift" was omitted, or struck out. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Dulles, I had intended to question the witness about -that. - -Mr. McKENZIE. This contract provides that Marina N. Oswald, "bargain, -transfer, sell and assign an undivided 10 percent of all such sums -when collected or paid to my account," referring to the fund in the -preceding paragraph. The agreement is signed by Marina N. Oswald, -witnessed by James H. Martin, and accepted by John M. Thorne. - -I am familiar with Marina N. Oswald's signature, and this is a copy of -her signature, or is her signature. I am not familiar with Mr. Martin's -signature or Mr. Thorne's signature. - -Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to that document, Mr. Oswald, are -you familiar with any of the signatures it bears? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you identify each signature and indicate those with -which you are familiar? - -Mr. OSWALD. As they appear in order, the first signature is Mrs. Marina -N. Oswald. I am familiar with this signature. - -The second signature is Mr. James H. Martin. I am familiar with his -signature. - -Mr. JENNER. It is his signature? - -Mr. OSWALD. I would say yes, it is. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. DULLES. Is that under "Accepted"--is that first word there "John"? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And the last signature as appears on this Exhibit -279 is the signature of John M. Thorne. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know the day upon which that document was executed? -It bears a date of December 5, which is a Thursday. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. - -Pardon me--the 5th day of December is the date purported--that this -document was executed at. I am not familiar that it was executed on -that date. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with the date when it was in fact executed? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not. I might further state I was not present -when this document was signed, and I was not aware of this document -until Thursday, February 13th. - -Mr. JENNER. 19---- - -Mr. OSWALD. 1964. - -Mr. JENNER. May I inquire of you, Mr. McKenzie, whether you have seen -the original of the document of which this purports to be a Xerox copy? - -Mr. McKENZIE. I have not, sir. But I have seen a duplicate copy, an -original copy. - -Mr. JENNER. A duplicate executed copy? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That was furnished to you by whom? - -Mr. McKENZIE. By Marina N. Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. And this is a photostatic copy of what, with respect to an -original, carbon copy or otherwise? - -Mr. McKENZIE. It is a photocopy of a carbon copy. - -Mr. JENNER. And have you personally seen the carbon copy of which this -is a photo? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir; I have. - -Mr. JENNER. And is the document now identified as Commission Exhibit -No. 279 in the same condition now as it was when you first saw it? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Exactly. - -Mr. JENNER. And to the best of your recollection, is it a duplicate of -the original? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. - -The next exhibit is Commission Exhibit No. 280 entitled "The Oswald -Trust," and bearing a heading, "The State of Texas, County of Dallas, -Know all men by these presents," and it is a trust agreement dated -December 30, 1963, by and between Marina Nikolaevna Oswald "a widow, -hereinafter called grantor, and John M. Thorne and James H. Martin of -Dallas County, Texas, co-trustees, hereinafter called the trustee" in -which it describes certain funds described on Schedule A attached to -this exhibit, which consists of some six pages, plus the Schedule A, -Schedule A describing the trust funds as cash, $25,000. And I might -add, in my opinion, Mr. Jenner, for whatever it may be worth, that this -trust grants to John Thorne and James Martin purportedly grants unto -those two men as co-trustees absolute discretion as to the distribution -of the trust funds. - -In fact, on page 2 it says, "as the trustee shall in either case in its -uncontrolled discretion deem advisable." - -Mr. DULLES. Who is the beneficiary of this trust? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Marina Oswald and her children, in the discretion of John -Thorne and James Martin. - -Representative FORD. Is that $25,000 the same $25,000 referred to in a -previous exhibit? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Ford, I presume so. But that is only a presumption on -my part. I do not know. - -I might further add, for the benefit of counsel and the Commission, -that Marina Oswald has informed me, and I think Robert Oswald can -testify as to this, which I leave to your discretion, that at no time -have these, up until February 14--have these---- - -Mr. JENNER. 1964? - -Mr. McKENZIE. 1964--have these exhibits, numbered consecutively -from 276 through 280, been read to her in Russian. And at the time -of execution, they were not interpreted, nor did they show of the -contents--what the contents were, except as explained to her in English. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. McKenzie, the document is identified as Commission -Exhibit No. 280, directing your attention to page 5, has blanks for -signatures, and names of grantor and co-trustees under those lines. - -Could I ask you whether you have seen the original of this document? - -Mr. McKENZIE. I have not, sir. I have seen a copy. - -Mr. JENNER. An executed copy? - -Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of my recollection, it was an executed copy, -yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And from what source did you obtain or was the document -exhibited to you? - -Mr. McKENZIE. The document was given to me by Marina Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. And you observed that it was executed? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. By the persons whose names appear on page 5 of the Exhibit -280? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. - -I have made these exhibits available to the Commission for whatever -purpose they may serve the Commission, and for no other purpose. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. I think we might want to reserve on that until the -whole Commission can get together. We want to examine everything within -the mandate we have been given by the President. We don't want to go -afield, quite naturally. And we cannot tell at this stage what bearing -these particular papers might have. So I think I would like to reserve -judgment on these. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Well, Mr. Dulles, I made that statement in view of that -fact. I felt that that would be true. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. McKenzie, for the purpose of our record, would you -be offended if we had you sworn, so you could then state that the -statements you have made to the Commission are true and correct? - -Mr. McKENZIE. I would not be offended in any way. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you, Mr. McKenzie, swear that what you have stated, is -the full truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. McKENZIE. I do, Mr. Dulles. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits -276 through 280, inclusive, the documents that have been so identified. - -Mr. DULLES. They may be accepted. - -(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 276 -through 280, inclusive, for identification, and received in evidence.) - -Mr. DULLES. I wish to state, in accepting these documents, the -Commission does not want to pass on or assume any responsibility with -respect to the financial or other arrangements described in these -documents. - -Mr. JENNER. I sought to identify them, Mr. Chairman, and gentlemen, and -to tender them in evidence because of events of the past few days, and -to confirm Mr. McKenzie's authority to speak on behalf of Mr. Oswald. - -Mr. DULLES. Very well. - -Mr. JENNER. At the recess, Mr. Oswald, we were dealing with--excuse me. - -We were dealing with the period of time that you and your mother and -your two brothers lived in Benbrook, Tex. This brought us through the -summer of 1948, I believe. - -Am I correct? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Liebeler has determined that the divorce of Mr. Ekdahl -and your mother took place in 1948. We cannot give you the month and -the day in 1948, but it was during the year 1948. - -We had reached the point in which you related to us that, I believe, -following the divorce of Mr. Ekdahl and your mother, she purchased a -small home. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And refresh my recollection, please--was that in Benbrook, -Tex.? - -Mr. OSWALD. That was in Benbrook, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. Have we reached a point now at which your brother, Lee, had -entered elementary school? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we have. - -Mr. JENNER. And you boys have now terminated your attendance at the -military academy? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And would you please relate what elementary school you and -your brother, John, attended, and Lee, if he attended the same school? - -Mr. OSWALD. Prior to the school year of 1948-49, we moved to Ewing -Street, 7408 Ewing Street, within the limits of the city of Fort Worth. - -Mr. JENNER. Was the home that had been purchased in Benbrook, Tex., -sold? - -Mr. OSWALD. I would say yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, you state that you would say. Is that your best -information? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -I am not aware of any transactions in regards to the selling of that -home or anything. Since we did move, and she did purchase this home on -7408 Ewing Street, in Fort Worth, I would assume that she did sell the -house at Benbrook, because she didn't rent it, and we no longer went -out there. I feel sure she did sell it. - -Mr. JENNER. Did I understand you to say that your mother purchased a -home at 7408 Ewing? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you, in very short compass, tell us the physical -characteristics of that home? - -Mr. OSWALD. It was a two bedroom, asbestos siding, with an attached -garage, red roof, small porch on the front, and an average sized lot. - -Mr. JENNER. These homes you have been describing all have, as I recall -it--have either attached garage or separate garages. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--with the exception of the home there in Benbrook -that my mother purchased after the divorce from Mr. Ekdahl--it did not -have a garage, and I did not recall a garage at the native stone house -in Benbrook. - -Mr. JENNER. The purpose of my inquiry was, did the family have an -automobile? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that true when you lived in Louisiana? - -Mr. OSWALD. To my best recollection on that--my father did have, at the -time of his death, either a 1937 or 1938 Chevrolet. I believe my mother -sold it after his death. I believe she did not own an automobile in New -Orleans, when we were at the Bethlehem Orphan Home. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you boys interested in automobiles, as most young -teenagers are? - -Mr. OSWALD. I think so, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Tinker around with them, drive them? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Both you and your brother John? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Later on, in later years, did your brother Lee--was he -likewise interested in automobiles, did he tinker with them? - -Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir, did he tinker with them. Even -though I can recall a couple of occasions with automobiles that I -owned that he would assist me in any repairs I might be making on the -automobile at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I have in mind his interest now. Was he a good driver? - -Mr. OSWALD. To my knowledge, he did not drive. - -Mr. JENNER. He did not drive at all? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him drive an automobile? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. On two or three occasions in later -years, I offered to teach him to drive. - -Mr. JENNER. You recall this specifically now, do you? Would you relate -to the Commission this course of events in his life--a young man who -never did learn, at least to your knowledge, to drive an automobile? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -The first occasion that I recall that I offered to Lee to teach him how -to drive--at that time, I owned a '56 Chevrolet. I had married, and I -was residing at 7313 Davenport, Fort Worth, Tex., a home which I had -purchased. And Lee was home on leave. - -Mr. JENNER. Give us the time, please, as closely as you can. - -Mr. OSWALD. This would be some time in 1958. - -Mr. JENNER. He was then in the Marine Corps? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And he was home on leave? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. State the circumstances, will you please? - -Mr. OSWALD. With relation to my offer to teach him how to drive? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. How did that come about? - -Mr. OSWALD. Well, he was spending a day, or part of a day over at our -house. We were going to the grocery store or something--Lee and I. As -I backed out of the driveway, I recall saying something to him, or he -brought it up, or something--about wanting to learn how to drive. - -And I said, "Well, we can start right now." - -It was an automatic transmission. - -"It is the easiest thing in the world to do. There is nothing to worry -about. And I would be right here with you." - -Well, he didn't think that was the time to try to start. He did want to -learn how to drive, though. And he did not take the wheel. - -Mr. JENNER. He did not? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -At no time was I present when he took the wheel of a car and drove it. - -Mr. JENNER. And on any occasion in your lifetime, did you ever see -him, whether you were in the vehicle--whether or not you were in -the vehicle--behind the wheel and actually operating in motion an -automobile? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have never known him to operate an automobile, -to drive it. - -Mr. JENNER. What about Mrs. Marina Oswald in that respect? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; to my knowledge she does not drive and she does -not know how to drive, and I have never seen her operate an automobile. - -Mr. JENNER. I notice when you are smoking that you hold the cigarette -in your left hand. Are you left handed? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I am left handed when I write and eat. - -Mr. JENNER. And you are right handed otherwise? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Throwing a baseball? - -Mr. OSWALD. Throwing a baseball. - -At one time I could handle it with both hands--especially a football -better than a baseball. But I have returned to my right hand on that. -I was more accurate with my right hand than with my left hand, in -throwing things. I kick footballs right footed and so forth. - -Mr. JENNER. What about your father? Was he right handed or left handed? - -Mr. OSWALD. This I do not know, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Your mother? - -Mr. OSWALD. My mother is left handed. - -Mr. JENNER. And your brother Lee? - -Mr. OSWALD. He was right handed. - -Representative FORD. Was there ever a time that he appeared to be left -handed, as far as you recollect? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I have never known him to handle anything--throw -a baseball, football, et cetera, fire a rifle, or do anything, left -handed. - -Mr. JENNER. In order to be certain of the details in this respect, when -he wrote, did be write with his right or his left hand? - -Mr. OSWALD. Right handed. - -Mr. JENNER. Right handed? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you in fact have seen him write with his right hand? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have. - -Mr. JENNER. During your youth? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever--was there ever an occasion when you saw him -write or attempt to write with his left hand? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have never seen him at any time, on any -occasion, ever attempt to write or do anything left handed. - -Mr. JENNER. You really covered my next question, but I would like to -ask it anyhow. - -There are men in athletics who are either right handed or left handed, -but who throw or bat or do something from the other side. - -Did he ever throw left handed or in any athletic endeavor employ his -left hand predominantly as against his right hand? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my knowledge, he never did. - -Mr. JENNER. From your many years of experience with him, being -associated with him, as his brother, was he a predominantly -right-handed person? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he most certainly was. - -Representative FORD. And you personally saw him throw, kick, or do -anything athletic over the years, and saw him use his right hand -exclusively? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I would say without qualification--I might be -repeating myself here--at no time did I ever know him to do anything -left handed, to the extent that it would be predominant. Of course his -hands worked together, and so forth. But I have never known him to do -anything left handed. - -Mr. JENNER. From your long acquaintance with him, and your intimate -knowledge of his physical characteristics in that respect, do you -have an opinion as to whether he was instinctively right-handed or -instinctively a left-handed person? - -Mr. OSWALD. I would say he was instinctively a right-handed person. - -Mr. JENNER. In all the years you were with him, you had opportunity to -see him react instantaneously without having time to think about using -his right hand or left hand? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you observe him on many occasions? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes. I have never known him to use his left hand in -any manner when an occasion would require that he use either -hand--instinctively went to his right hand. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he a coordinated person in the use of his right hand? -Some are not coordinated athletically. - -Mr. OSWALD. My opinion of this, sir, would be that he was coordinated -to the extent that looking at myself and many, I would compare us as -two peas in a pod. Quite fast, well coordinated. - -Mr. JENNER. He was dextrous? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And well coordinated? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you had an opportunity over the years to see him engage -in athletics, did you? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. During your youth, as a young man, in any event, did -you and your brother John and Lee have an interest in guns, rifles, -pistols, cap guns, firearms generally? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we certainly did. I would say this. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, this includes all three of you? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I understand that. - -Of course John and I, when we attended military school, we had more of -an opportunity to become acquainted with firearms. We certainly played -with cap pistols, rubber guns, et cetera, when we were young. Lee did -the same thing. - -However, I would say this. Mother did not like firearms. - -Mr. DULLES. We will recess now until 2 o'clock this afternoon. - -(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -Afternoon Session - -TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWARD LEE OSWALD RESUMED - - -The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m. - -Mr. DULLES. The Commission will come to order. - -Mr. DULLES. Mr. Jenner, will you please continue? - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you, sir. - -Mr. Reporter, would you read the last question and answer we have so we -can orient ourselves. - -To refresh your recollection, Mr. Oswald, I had commenced to examine -you with respect to the interests of yourself, your brother John, and -your brother Lee in firearms, even at the children's stage. And you had -indicated developments in that area as you became older. - -I think you reached the point where, as an example, you said of course -your brother John and yourself had attended military school. - -Mr. OSWALD. And, also, I believe, sir, the question referred to all -three of us. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. OSWALD. To what extent we were familiar with firearms. - -To elaborate, at military school John was by far the better shot of the -two of us. He was on the school rifle team. And, at this time, I was 10 -years old--when I first attended there. My hunting instinct came alive. - -Mr. JENNER. Hunting? - -Mr. OSWALD. Hunting instinct came alive, and at the first opportunity I -started hunting squirrels and so forth there in Mississippi. I did this -on practically every occasion I had. John was on the rifle team. And -up to that time, a number of years after that, we never had a firearm -in the house. My mother didn't like them. She was scared of them. And -after we moved to 7408 Ewing Street, none of us owned a rifle, even -a .22, or a shotgun, or any type of firearm. And when I wanted to go -hunting from there, I had various friends that had rifles that I would -borrow, and I would go to the west side of Fort Worth, and Benbrook, -and do my squirrel hunting. - -I don't recall at anytime during that period that Lee went with me. -I don't know that John did--because approximately this time he had -reached the age of 17, at which time he joined the U.S. Coast Guard. - -Mr. JENNER. This is when you moved over to Ewing Street in Fort Worth? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Up to that time, had you and Lee at any time gone hunting? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any time that we went hunting at -that time. - -Mr. JENNER. This was 1948-49. So he was 9 to 10 years old? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Had, to your knowledge, Lee gone hunting or used firearms -or played or been interested in firearms with you or with your brother? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. To my knowledge I don't remember any time he went -hunting with myself or my older brother John. As I stated, there was no -firearms in the house. - -He liked cap pistols, like any other kid. And to the extent that we -didn't even own a BB gun. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you ever had BB guns around your home? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you boys ever owned one? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. By this time, I assume you had shot one. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Owned by one of your pals or somebody around the -neighborhood? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And Lee had what you would describe as a normal interest in -firearms? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That every boy has? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. But not beyond that? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Were there any pistol or rifle ranges around that you boys -attended? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, your brother John at this point entered the Coast -Guard? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You were attending--you were then 15. You were now -attending high school, I assume. - -Mr. OSWALD. Junior high school. - -Mr. JENNER. In Fort Worth? - -Mr. OSWALD. Fort Worth, W. C. Stripling Junior High School. - -Mr. DULLES. What was the name of that? - -Mr. OSWALD. W. C. Stripling Junior High School. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your brother John attend high school? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What high school did he attend? - -Mr. OSWALD. We went for awhile--to get this thing in sequence, before -he went into the Coast Guard he attended Arlington Heights High School -in Fort Worth, I believe, for one-half year, and then he transferred to -Paschal High School in Fort Worth. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you attended either of those high schools? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; Arlington Heights High School. - -Mr. JENNER. I think I might go back a little bit. I will return to the -firearms. - -But to maintain the sequence, when you and your brother John came to -Benbrook, Tex., after you completed your schooling at the military -school, I assume you attended school in Benbrook, Tex. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; we did not, because we were just there during the -summer months. And we moved prior to the school year of 19---- - -Mr. JENNER. '48? - -Mr. OSWALD. '48--we moved to the address on Ewing Street. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. And each of you then enrolled in Arlington? - -Mr. OSWALD. I was in the ninth grade, which was junior high school in -Texas. I enrolled in W. C. Stripling. - -Mr. JENNER. First? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And John Edward enrolled in Arlington Heights -High School. - -Mr. JENNER. W. C. Stripling High School was a junior high school? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And Arlington Heights High School was senior high school? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; the last 3 years. - -Mr. JENNER. And, at this time, your brother Lee was enrolled in---- - -Mr. OSWALD. West Ridglea Elementary School. - -Mr. JENNER. So at this point each of you was attending a different -school? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And Lee was 9 years old. - -You continued at Arlington Heights Junior High School for how long? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir--W. C. Stripling Junior High School. For 1 year, -the ninth grade. - -If I may, sir, perhaps correct something--I don't know for sure which -way it was. When I said Lee attended West Ridglea Elementary School, I -think perhaps the first year he attended Arlington Heights Elementary -School, because I don't believe the West Ridglea Elementary School was -completed at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. We might take you in sequence so that at least I don't get -confused. - -You spent a year at W.C. Stripling High School? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. So we now have--we are now into '49-'50, is that correct? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And after a year at W.C. Stripling High School, you -enrolled where? - -Mr. OSWALD. At Arlington Heights High School. - -Mr. JENNER. And that would be in the fall of 1949? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you attended Arlington Heights High School how long? - -Mr. OSWALD. I attended my sophomore year. In my sophomore year I -started---- - -Mr. JENNER. Would that be 1951, the end of your sophomore year? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; 1950 would be the end of the school year. That -summer there I started a job with an A&P Supermarket there in Fort -Worth. - -I might say along this period mother seemed to be having difficulty -keeping a job or making enough money and so forth to raise us. I stayed -out of school that next year and worked for A&P. - -Mr. JENNER. Out of school 1950-51? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your brother remain in school--John? - -Mr. OSWALD. John at this time was in the Coast Guard. - -Mr. JENNER. Already in the Coast Guard? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. And you worked at the A&P during this period? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you contribute your earnings to your mother? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. They were probably not a great amount at this age. Do you -recall what they were, per week? - -Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps my starting salary was somewhere around $48 a week, -or something like that. I believe by the end of the year I had become a -checker, and perhaps it was $65 or $70 a week. - -Mr. JENNER. What proportion of that did you contribute to the -sustaining of the family? - -Mr. OSWALD. I would say practically all of it, but what I needed for -expenses, a little spending money. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether your brother John made an allotment of -any kind to your mother or sent her any money? - -Mr. OSWALD. To my knowledge, he did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any illness or disability of any kind that -contributed to your mother's difficulty in obtaining positions during -this period? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she was not disabled. I don't recall any -particular length of illness that she had at this time that would not -allow her to work. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the reason, if you recall, she was having -difficulty in obtaining work, or was there any particular reason? - -Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir. No particular reason I can recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Your brother Lee was living at home during this time? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he working after school, or making any effort to earn -some money? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was not. He might have on occasion mowed -somebody's lawn or something like that, where he would have a little -spending money, or something. But nothing frequently, consistently. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Proceeding with you, at the end of the school year '50-'51--I assume -you continued working there the summer of '51? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And did you reenter school that fall? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Where? - -Mr. OSWALD. Arlington Heights High School. - -Representative FORD. May I ask a question? - -During this 1-year period that you worked for the A&P, Mr. Oswald, were -you the principal source of income for your mother, Lee, and yourself? - -Mr. OSWALD. Mother was working. Whether or not I was making more than -she was at that time, I do not know. - -Representative FORD. She was working spasmodically or regularly during -this period? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe almost regularly, very little off. I cannot -recall right now what she was doing. I think perhaps during this period -she was selling insurance. - -Representative FORD. While she was in this occupation, who took care of -Lee? - -Mr. OSWALD. Well, no one did. Lee was, of course, at school. When he -returned home from school in the afternoon, he managed for himself, -until I or my mother returned home from work. - -Representative FORD. He was 9 or 10? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Eleven years old. - -Representative FORD. Thank you. - -Mr. JENNER. I think Representative Ford's question may have been -induced by the fact you said that at about this time of which we are -speaking your mother was having trouble retaining her position or -obtaining positions. I assumed from that, perhaps incorrectly, that -there were gaps, there were times when she was not employed, and, -therefore, did need you to remain out of school to help. Is that a fair -statement? - -Mr. OSWALD. I would say that is a fair statement and generally so. A -little more comes to mind there. - -I believe, perhaps, that she might have been selling insurance. I -think she was acting at that time as what you would call a hostess -or a welcoming party for the city of Fort Worth. In other words, she -went out and met new people coming into Fort Worth--something along -that line. And apparently it wasn't very much money, very little. And -I think during this period also she was trying to locate other types -of work that would perhaps earn her more. I believe that would be more -accurate to what I really had in mind, there. - -Mr. JENNER. But during all of the period, from the divorce of your -mother and Mr. Ekdahl, proceeding from that time forward, she again -returned to what she had been doing prior to the marriage--that is, -working to sustain the family? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And if I may use the expression you did, Lee was left -to shift for himself during the daytime, get to school, get back to -school, and be around until either you boys returned to the home or -your mother returned to the home? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Because he didn't have anybody particularly assigned or who -undertook to care for him? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -I might say you mentioned "you boys." Of course at this time John was -in the Coast Guard, so it was either myself or my mother. - -Mr. JENNER. And particularly during the year you were employed at the -A&P, and your mother was also employed, then certainly during that -period there was no one even available to take care of him, is that -correct? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. What were your hours? - -Mr. OSWALD. My hours varied somewhat. We had different types of shifts -for different days. Normally perhaps from 7 to 4 or 5 o'clock, and on -the weekends--stock day was Wednesday, when all shipments came in, to -restock the store. That was Wednesday and Saturday. Usually they were -long days. I worked from 7 o'clock to 8 o'clock or 9 o'clock at night. -And on Saturdays practically always after the store was closed, we did -the cleanup, and rewaxing the floors and sometimes it was anywhere -from 10 to 10:30 at night, and perhaps even 11 o'clock before I was -home. - -Mr. DULLES. Did Lee's school at that time keep him until about 4 -o'clock, do you know? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, that would be--he was, of course, at that -time, attending West Ridglea Elementary School. I believe it would be -about 3 o'clock, because I believe high school at that time--we were -getting out at 3:40. And I believe the elementary school was either 40 -minutes or an hour earlier. - -Mr. JENNER. You attended Arlington Heights High School for the school -year '51-'52? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And what about the year '52-'53? - -Mr. OSWALD. July 1952 I joined the Marine Corps. - -Mr. JENNER. And in July 1952, when you joined the Marine Corps, what do -you recall was your status as far as your schooling was concerned? - -Mr. OSWALD. I completed my junior year in high school. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you enlist for 3 years? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And your brother was still in the Coast Guard? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he was still in the Coast Guard at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. And, at that time, I take it your brother Lee was attending -Arlington Heights High School? That would be 1952? - -Mr. OSWALD. Just a minute, please. - -In 1952 Lee was 13 years old. He would be attending W. C. Stripling -Junior High School then. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. For the school year 1951-52? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Junior high school there was from the seventh to -the ninth grades. And as soon as he was through with his sixth year, he -started attending W. C. Stripling Junior High School. - -Mr. JENNER. As soon as he finished the sixth year at Ridglea Elementary -School, he entered W. C. Stripling High School, as a seventh grader? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--junior high school. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, the condition that you described as to Lee shifting -for himself during the daytime, when your mother was away working -and you were away working, and your brother John was in the Coast -Guard, continued, I take it, when he began attendance and while he was -attending W. C. Stripling Junior High School? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there a discussion, a family discussion when you -enlisted in the Marines, or prior to your enlisting in the Marines, as -to your doing so, and quitting high school? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not. - -Mr. JENNER. That was of your own volition? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you talk to your mother in advance about it? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Not at all? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Had anything preceded in the way of family discussion of -your brother John's entry into the Coast Guard? - -Mr. OSWALD. I feel like it was, sir. He had previously---- - -Mr. JENNER. This is your best recollection? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -He had previously, before going into the Coast Guard, joined the Marine -Corps Reserve, the base of which was, at that time, at Grand Prairie, -Tex. I believe it was 105 Howitzer, something like that. And he was -perhaps in that 4 or 5 months before he joined the Coast Guard. When it -came up about the Coast Guard, I believe we all talked about it, or at -least he talked to Lee about it in front of me. - -Mr. JENNER. You used an expression, "I believe we talked about it." Is -it your recollection that you did? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Nothing that I remember particular about that. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the character of the discussion, Mr. Oswald? You -had a family in which your mother was having some difficulty supporting -you boys? You had a brother who needed to be supported. Was there any -discussion--or was there a discussion of what would happen in the event -that first John and then you joined the service? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe reflecting on what mother said to me when I made -my decision to join the Marine Corps was that perhaps it was the best -thing, where I would not be a burden to her to that extent, and also -perhaps be able to help her when she needed help. And I think this -would be in line with what was said when John left for the Coast Guard, -that this would be, of course, one less for her to take care of at the -house, to feed and to clothe, and so forth. And it would relieve her of -her responsibility along that line--it would help her, because of the -limited amount of funds that she had coming in. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever make an allotment of any portion of your -service pay to your mother? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. To your knowledge, did John? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. - -Mr. JENNER. You were single at this time? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Your brother John was? - -Mr. OSWALD. 1952? - -Mr. JENNER. When he entered the Coast Guard. - -Mr. OSWALD. When he entered the Coast Guard he was single. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he marry while he was in the service? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, was he in the Coast Guard when he married? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he was. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it he did leave the Coast Guard. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he has. - -Mr. JENNER. And did he enter into military service when he left the -Coast Guard? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did. He transferred from the Coast Guard into -the U.S. Air Force. - -Mr. JENNER. And when was that? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe this to be around 1955. I believe it would be -accurate to say in 1954. I do recall a letter from John to the extent -that he lost a stripe when he transferred from one service to the -other, and I believe this letter came to me when I was in Korea, which -was 1954 and early '55. I believe it was 1954. - -Mr. JENNER. When you were in Korea, did you say? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you say, if you did, that your brother John -married? Do you recall the year? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe this would be late 1950 or '51. - -Mr. JENNER. That was during the period you were working at the A&P? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And where was he stationed at that time? - -Mr. OSWALD. New York City. - -Mr. JENNER. Staten Island, I guess. - -I would like to ask some questions about that later on, but I prefer -now to return to this. - -You enlisted in the Marines, then, in the summer of 1952. - -Mr. OSWALD. July 11, 1952. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you give us in very short compass your military -career? - -Mr. OSWALD. I went to boot camp at San Diego, Calif., and from San -Diego I went to combat training at Camp Pendleton, Calif. When I left -Camp Pendleton, I was transferred from the infantry into the Marine Air -Wing. - -I went to Jacksonville, Fla. to a preparatory school down there in -Marine aviation--more or less to determine your ability and what your -strong points were, and what field you would be best qualified in the -aviation division. - -From Jacksonville, Fla., I went into Millington, Tenn., right outside -of Memphis, Tenn., a Navy school, where for approximately 6 months I -attended metalsmith school. - -From Memphis, Tenn., or Millington, Tenn., I went to Miami, Fla. for -approximately 9 months. I was not in school any longer. I was on the -job. And from Miami, I was sent overseas to Korea. - -Mr. JENNER. And how long were you overseas? - -Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 18 months, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. From when to when? - -Mr. OSWALD. I reported to Santa Ana, Calif. in January or February of -1954. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were discharged from the Marines---- - -Mr. OSWALD. July of 1955. - -Mr. JENNER. So you had a full 3 years in the Marines. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. During that 3-year period, what contact did you have with -the members of your family, and with particular reference, if you can -give that first, with your brother Lee--his writing you, you writing -him? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we were corresponding infrequently, I would -say--not very many letters between I and Lee direct when I was in the -service, especially the first part of my tour in the service. - -In 1952, after traveling from Camp Pendleton, Calif., to Jacksonville, -Fla., I did have a 10-day leave. They were in New York City at that -time. - -Mr. JENNER. This was then some time in 1953, I take it? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir--1952. - -Mr. JENNER. 1952? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. This was---- - -Mr. JENNER. You mean your mother and Lee--that is the period of time -they were in New York City? - -Mr. OSWALD. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Living there. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see them? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not at that time. I spent my leave in Fort Worth, -because I did not feel I had enough time to travel to New York and down -to Jacksonville, Fla. After completing metalsmith school at Millington, -Tenn., I took a 10-day leave. - -Mr. JENNER. Fix the time. - -Mr. OSWALD. This was July or August of 1953. I had my orders to go -to Miami, Fla. I took a 10-day leave and left Millington, Tenn., by -car and came to New York City and spent 10 days in New York with Lee, -mother, John, and his family. - -Mr. JENNER. Where did you stay? - -Mr. OSWALD. At mother's apartment, with Lee, in the Bronx some place--I -do not recall the address. - -Mr. JENNER. What, if anything, did you learn at that time regarding -Lee's attendance or nonattendance in school? - -Mr. OSWALD. Nothing on that, sir. This was in the summer time. Lee, of -course, was home and not supposed to be in school. And I do not think -anything was brought up that I recall about whether or not Lee had been -attending school regularly or not. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Can we go off the record? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. DULLES. Back on the record. - -Mr. JENNER. Referring to the 10-day leave in New York City, did you -spend time with your brother Lee? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Your mother was working during that period of time, was she -not? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. In spending time with him, did you take him around, or -accompany him, visiting various places in New York City? - -Mr. OSWALD. He took me around, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion during that period to take any -photographs, snapshots, of Lee? - -Mr. OSWALD. I certainly can identify the one appearing in Life--yes, -sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Just hold your answers right in this area exactly to my -questions. - -Mr. OSWALD. I'm sorry. - -Mr. JENNER. Were these taken with your camera, or was it a camera that -your mother or brother owned or had? - -Mr. OSWALD. This was my camera. - -Mr. DULLES. What do these questions refer to? Do they refer to the -pictures in Life? - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I really did not want to refer to that at the moment. - -Do you remember any of the places at which you took snapshots of Lee -during this 10-day leave? - -Mr. OSWALD. The Bronx Zoo I believe was about the only time I can -recall taking any pictures of him. - -Mr. JENNER. I am at liberty to advise you, Mr. Oswald, that when your -mother testified before the Commission she did produce a number of -photographs, snapshots, and otherwise, among which was a snapshot of -your brother, Lee, taken at the New York Zoo--that she testified was -taken at the New York Zoo. - -Is that the incident in which you took the photograph of your brother -Lee, as far as you know? - -Mr. OSWALD. You say the New York Zoo, sir. As far as I know there is -just one zoo up there referred to as the Bronx Zoo. I do recall, and I -still have the picture that I took of Lee at the Bronx Zoo. I certainly -feel that perhaps either I sent copies of it to mother, or to Lee after -I had the film developed. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, may I go off the record a moment? - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. DULLES. Back on the record. - -Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, I have before me the -February 21, 1964, issue of Life magazine, on pp. 68-A, 68-B, and 70 of -which there appear a number of photographs. I think it would be well -if we gave this spread page an exhibit number. And since it really -consists of two separate pages--the next exhibit numbers are what? - -Mr. LIEBELER. 281 and 282. - -Mr. JENNER. We will mark 68-B as 281 and page 69 as 282. - -(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 281 and -282, respectively, for identification.) - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner--the only thing you are offering to the -Commission at this time as I understand it are the pictures that appear -on those two pages and not the text. - -Mr. JENNER. That's correct, sir. - -Directing your attention to page 69, identified as Commission Exhibit -282, there is a picture of a young boy and the background looks like it -might be taken in a zoo. You mentioned that you had taken a snapshot of -your brother on this 10-day leave. - -Could you examine that and see if you can identify that as being the -snapshot you took? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I do so identify that picture. That was taken at -the Bronx Zoo--a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald, taken during my 10-day -leave in New York City in 1953, approximately July or August of 1953. - -Mr. JENNER. Was school in session at that time? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, school was not in session at that time. This was -during the summer months. - -Mr. JENNER. So there was no obligation on the part of your brother to -have been in school at this particular time? - -Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, appearing immediately above that snapshot is a -snapshot or a photograph, a picture of two boys. Do you recognize -either or both of those children? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. I recognize the young boy standing, and I -recognize him to be Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. And who is the boy appearing lower in that photograph? - -Mr. OSWALD. I do not recognize him, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. This is in the upper right hand corner of Commission -Exhibit 282. Appearing immediately to the left--but before I proceed to -that, are you able to identify that sufficiently to indicate to us the -age of your brother at the time that picture was taken? - -Mr. OSWALD. I would say he was approximately 11 or 12 years old at that -time. - -Mr. JENNER. And at this time he was residing where? - -Mr. OSWALD. If he was 11 years old at the time the photograph was -taken, he was residing in Fort Worth, Tex. If he was 12 years old, he -would be residing in New York City. - -Mr. JENNER. To the left appears another photograph of a young man in a -striped shirt, a striped T-shirt. Do you observe that? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. It is apparently a blowup from a group picture. Who is that? - -Mr. OSWALD. I recognize him to be my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. And do you recognize the clothing, have you seen him in -that clothing before? - -Mr. OSWALD. Not that I recall. The tennis shoes look familiar. - -Mr. JENNER. And are you able to make out the age of your brother at the -time this picture was taken? - -Mr. OSWALD. I would say approximately 10 or 11 years old. - -Mr. JENNER. So if it were at age 10, he would have been residing where? - -Mr. OSWALD. In Fort Worth, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have already given the age. - -To the left of that picture is another photograph or apparently a -snapshot. I notice that there are part of some persons behind the -central figure. Do you recognize the figure in that photograph? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Who is it? - -Mr. OSWALD. I recognize it to be Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. At what age? - -Mr. OSWALD. Seven or eight years old. - -Mr. JENNER. And assuming age 7, where was he residing at that time? - -Mr. OSWALD. This would be--the year when he was 7 would be 1946 or -1947. He would be residing in Fort Worth, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. And if he were 8, he still would be residing in Fort Worth, -Tex. - -Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. To the left of that picture is a picture of--I don't know -whether that is one snapshot or two. - -Mr. OSWALD. It is one, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Showing three persons, three children. Are you able to -identify all three? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you please identify and give the ages? - -Mr. OSWALD. Left to right, I identify myself at the age of 10. - -Mr. JENNER. With the sailor hat on? - -Mr. OSWALD. With the sailor hat on, right. In the center I identify it -to be Lee Harvey Oswald at the age of 5. On the far right I identify -John Edward Pic at the age of 12. - -Mr. JENNER. And you boys were residing where at that time? - -Mr. OSWALD. At Dallas, Tex., on Victor Street. That was taken right -outside, at the side of the house. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the circumstances under which the picture was -taken? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; other than we wanted to take some pictures. - -Mr. JENNER. Your present recollection is who took the picture? - -Mr. OSWALD. My mother. - -Mr. JENNER. In the background is what? - -Mr. OSWALD. The house that we lived in on Victor Street. - -Mr. JENNER. There is a spread picture at the bottom of the double page. -Are you familiar with the area which is shown in that picture? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am. - -Mr. JENNER. What is that area? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is on the playground of Ridglea West Elementary School. - -Mr. JENNER. And do you recognize any of the persons shown in that -reproduction? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you identify those, if any, you so recognize? - -Mr. OSWALD. The only person I recognize in this photograph is this -young man right here--I do not recall his name--I believe his name was -Donald. He lived right around the corner from us. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, I hand you a brush pen. Would you indicate by -an arrow the person to whom you made reference? Thank you. - -Would you do the same on the picture identified in the extreme upper -right hand corner on Exhibit 282. - -Now, I notice on the spread picture at the bottom of the page, which -was identified as a schoolmate, that there is to the left of that -picture a picture with an imprinted arrow. Do you recognize the person -to whom the arrow is pointing? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you able to say whether that is or is not your brother -Lee? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; from this picture, I cannot determine if it is Lee -or not. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you able to see it clearly enough to say that it is not? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not able to see it clearly enough to make -a positive statement one way or the other. It appears to be a little -fuzzy. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion as to whether it is or not? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. JENNER. You just do not recognize it? - -Mr. OSWALD. I just do not recognize it. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Now on page 68-A, which we will mark as Commission Exhibit No. 283--do -you recognize that photograph depicted on that page? - -(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 283 for -identification.) - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Who is it? - -Mr. OSWALD. I recognize Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you seen the original of that reproduction? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I most certainly have. I might add that I wore -that same baby suit. - -Mr. JENNER. That is shown in that picture? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And John Edward did, too. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, turning to pages 70 and 71, which we will have marked -as Commission Exhibit 284, so far as page 70 is concerned, and page 71 -marked as 285. - -(The material referred to was marked respectively Commission Exhibits -Nos. 284 and 285 for identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. Spread across page 70 and partially on page 71 is a -photograph, or a reproduction of a photograph. - -Do you recognize any of the persons depicted on that spread page? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And do you recognize more than one person? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. JENNER. And which one do you recognize? - -Mr. OSWALD. In the foreground on the left-hand side, on page 70, I -recognize that to be Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that the boy with the V-shaped design on his sweater or -T-shirt, with his hand on his chest? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you identify that by an arrow. - -Are you able to, in looking at that--to tell at what age that was -taken, and where? - -Mr. OSWALD. I would say approximately 14 years old. I cannot recognize -the classroom there. At 14 Lee would have been---- - -Mr. JENNER. He was in New York City, was he not? - -Mr. OSWALD. 1953, yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. On page 72, which we will mark as Commission Exhibit 286, -there is a photograph or reproduction of a photograph in the lower -right-hand corner. - -(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 286 for -identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize anyone in that reproduction? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize both people? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you indicate the person you recognize? - -Mr. OSWALD. I recognize the person on the left-hand side of this -photograph. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the man? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I recognize him to be Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. At about what age? - -Mr. OSWALD. Since I am aware of where this picture was taken, at the -age of 17. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate---- - -Mr. OSWALD. I am aware where this picture was taken. This is in -Arlington Heights High School. I believe this exhibit right behind him -in the background was on the third floor of Arlington Heights High -School. - -Mr. JENNER. And that was taken at the high school? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And he was of what age at that time? - -Mr. OSWALD. 17. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, it is pretty clear, since there is a gentleman and -a lady in this picture, the only two persons indicated, and you have -identified your brother--would you still, however, put a arrow pointing -to your brother. Thank you. - -Turning to page 74-A, which is Commission Exhibit 287, there are two -pictures reproduced in the lower right-hand corner. - -(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 287 for -identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize those? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. And would you state what they are? - -Mr. OSWALD. Both pictures are pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. And he appears to be in military garb. Were those taken -when he was in the Marines? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. By the way, did you see him in his service uniform at any -time? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. But you do recognize these pictures as depicting your -brother? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. On pages 74 and 75 of Life Magazine, which will be -Commission Exhibits 288 and 289, there is a spread picture. - -(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 288 and -289, respectively, for identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize any of the persons depicted in that spread -picture? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do, but only one. - -Mr. JENNER. Identify the one you recognize, and locate it in the -picture. - -Mr. OSWALD. I recognize Lee Harvey Oswald being in the foreground of -the picture, approximately in the center of the picture. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you identify him with this brush pencil? - -Then on Exhibit 288, which is page 74-B of this issue of Life Magazine, -there appears at the bottom a reproduction of identity cards. I direct -your attention to the left-hand identity card upon which appears a -photograph, a reproduction of a photograph. Do you recognize that? - -Mr. OSWALD. I would have to say that he appears heavier, his face is -fuller, he has more hair on his head, but the eyes and the nose and the -mouth are Lee Harvey Oswald's. I had not studied that picture before. -But he does seem to be quite fullfaced, if that is the terminology to -use there, and much more hair on his head--there again in relation to -the hair I am assuming here this photograph of Lee was taken after he -returned from Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. I would rather not have you assume anything at the moment. - -Do you identify that as a reproduction of a picture of your brother? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with--were you at the time acquainted -with the circumstances under which there was issued or purported to be -issued a Selective Service System classification card in the name of -Alek James Hidell? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not. - -Mr. JENNER. And did you ever have a discussion with your brother with -respect to his use, if he did, of the name Alek James Hidell, A. J. -Hidell, or any combination of that, in which the surname Hidell was -employed? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. And if I may say, at no time have I -ever known him to use any other name than Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, you are unacquainted with any -circumstances under which he employed, if he did employ at any time, -the surname Hidell? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Or any other alias? - -Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever know him to employ an alias? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, I had not. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you ever employed one? - -Mr. OSWALD. Off the record, please. - -Mr. JENNER. I will withdraw that question. - -Mr. OSWALD. This is what it amounts to. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Let me state this for the purposes of the record. In -order to avoid publicity or avoid newsmen, we did travel to Friendship -Airport from Dallas, Texas, yesterday evening, February 19th, and -Robert Oswald traveled under the name of F. M. Johnson. - -Mr. DULLES. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. DULLES. Back on the record. - -Mr. JENNER. On the following page, which is page 76, Commission Exhibit -290, is a photograph, reproduction of a photograph in the lower -right-hand corner. - -(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 290 for -identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. You recognize the person depicted in that photograph? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you identify them? - -Mr. OSWALD. I recognize the two people in the photograph--the woman -being Mrs. Marina Oswald, and the man being Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you ever seen that picture before? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe I have. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see it prior to November 22, 1963? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe I did, and the reason why I say I -believe--I believe I either have a copy of this photograph myself, or -one very, very similar to it. - -Mr. JENNER. How did you come into the possession of the photograph? - -Mr. OSWALD. Lee had sent it to me from Russia, showed me pictures of -him and his wife on their wedding day in April, 1961. I received the -photographs, though, in approximately May, 1961. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you still have those photographs in your possession? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. If I may say, I did turn over I believe -four photographs that Lee had sent me from Russia, and I believe in all -four photographs Lee and Marina were in them. And I turned these over -to Mr. Jim H. Martin. - -Mr. JENNER. But they are your personal property. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they are. - -Mr. JENNER. I want to get into that period of time when you were in -correspondence with your brother at a later moment. - -Turning now to page 78, which is Commission Exhibit 291, in the lower -left-hand corner of that is a reproduction, or what purports to be a -reproduction of a photograph. - -(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 291 for -identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize either of the two persons depicted in that -photograph? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I recognize the man on the right with the piece -of paper in his hand, and a notebook I believe under his left arm, to -be Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize the other man who is partially shown in -that photograph? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see that photograph at any time prior to November -22, 1963? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not. - -Mr. JENNER. And on page 80, which is Commission Exhibit No. 292, there -are two photographs, one showing a lady and a child, in the upper -right-hand corner. - -(The material referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 292 for -identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to that picture first, do you -recognize either of the persons shown in that photograph? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. I recognize both persons. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you identify them, please? - -Mr. OSWALD. The child is June Lee Oswald, and the woman is Mrs. Marina -Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. And June Oswald is your brother's child? - -Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you seen that photograph at any time prior to November -22, 1963? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not. - -Mr. JENNER. In the lower right-hand corner is a photograph of a man -holding a firearm or rifle with a pistol on his right hip and some -papers of some kind in--he is holding the rifle in his left hand, the -papers in his right hand. Do you recognize the person depicted in that -photograph? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. I recognize him to be my brother, Lee -Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you seen that photograph at any time prior to November -22, 1963? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you seen the photograph of which that is a -reproduction since November 22, 1963? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have. - -Mr. JENNER. Under what circumstances? - -Mr. OSWALD. At the Inn of the Six Flags at Arlington. Tex., -approximately November 27, 1963, in the presence of U.S. Secret Service -and Marina Oswald and myself. - -Mr. DULLES. Your mother was not there then? - -Mr. OSWALD. She was there at the time, but I do not believe she was in -the room when this photograph was shown. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits -281 through 292 the pages of the issue of Life Magazine I have -identified that bear those exhibit numbers. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. I understand counsel for Mr. Oswald has pointed out -that I believe you are offering only the photographs and not the text? - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you, sir. May I amend my offer. I offer in evidence -the reproduction of photographs which the witness has identified that -appear on Commission Exhibits 281 through 292. - -Mr. DULLES. They may be accepted. - -(The portion of the documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits -Nos. 281 through 292 for identification were received in evidence.) - -Mr. JENNER. I do not offer any of the text or any other portions of -those pages. - -Mr. DULLES. That is so noted. - -Mr. JENNER. Are there any other events or happenings or circumstances -during this 10-day period in New York City that come to your mind? -You have told of the incident of taking the photograph which was -identified. You told of visiting various places in New York City and -being with your brother Lee. Was it a good deal during this 10-day -period? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; practically every day, and practically every -night, with two exceptions at night, where my brother John fixed me up -with a blind date for one night only--no, I take that back. It would be -just one night Lee was not with me, and that would be on the night I -had a blind date with a girl from New York City, with my brother John -and his wife. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you and your brother Lee visit your brother John's home -during this 10-day stay? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, we did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with your brother Lee--put it -this way--did you become aware during this 10-day period as to whether -your mother and brother had stayed with your brother John at any time -during their New York visit? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. It was my understanding that when they first -arrived in New York for a brief period they stayed together. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion with you as to why they left the -home of your brother John? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to any extent--no, sir, no discussion. - -Mr. JENNER. No discussion of any difficulties or any incidents that had -arisen while they were living with your brother John's family? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That induced or had a bearing upon leaving and taking an -apartment in the Bronx? - -Mr. OSWALD. I do not know of any discussion or any difficulty that was -mentioned to me, but I understand there was some difficulty. - -Mr. JENNER. Please, Mr. Oswald--the subject was not discussed with you -during the 10-day period you were on leave? - -Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it discussed with you at any time prior to November 22, -1963? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion on the subject of your brother's -progress in schooling in New York City? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not. - -Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of his attendance at school, whether the -attendance was good or bad--was school discussed at all, as you recall? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. And as a layman, and acquainted with your brother, what -was your impression? Give us your present impression of your brother's -state of mind during that 10-day period. Was he normal and happy and -friendly? - -Mr. OSWALD. He was very normal. He did not appear to be unhappy. He was -quite happy to see me. We spent a good deal of time together during -that 10-day visit. At no time did he act abnormally. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he complain to you about school? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. - -Mr. JENNER. In general did he complain about anything--any special -gripes? - -Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that as being a happy 10-day visit on your -10-day leave in New York City? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Both you and your brother? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you spend time with your mother as well as your brother -Lee during the 10-day period? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. That would be when--the evenings and on Sunday? - -Mr. OSWALD. Generally in the evenings. That is the way I recall it. - -Mr. JENNER. You and your brother Lee and your mother--did you do any -visiting during the evening, movies, any entertainment, go out? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; Lee and I did. Mother did not join us. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of your mother's state of mind and -well-being and her general feeling while you were there during that -10-day period? - -Mr. OSWALD. May I have that again, please? - -(The reporter read the pending question.) - -Mr. OSWALD. My impression of my mother at that time was that she was -still having a little difficulty making enough money to have the things -that she wanted to have, I should say. But generally her health was -good, and nothing that I recall comes to mind that would indicate that -there was any difficulty between her and Lee. They seemed to be getting -along quite well. - -Mr. JENNER. Your impression during the 10-day period, I take it then, -was that the relationship between your mother and Lee was friendly, was -it? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Were there any arguments during the time you were there -between them? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there were. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he at any time during that period--was he discourteous -to his mother? - -Mr. OSWALD. If I may in my own words here, sir---- - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. OSWALD. The word "discourteous"--my mother did not wish us to go -to certain places--I say certain places--I do not recall the places. -She just did not want us going, inasmuch as we were going during the -day. I wanted to see as much of New York as I could while I was there. -And I recall that Lee and mother and I had something of an argument in -reference to staying away from the house during the day so long, and so -forth. And it was not her wish that we do that. And if this was being -discourteous--that is why I qualify that. - -Mr. JENNER. Nothing extraordinary. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, your leave terminated. You went back to Florida, and -you eventually wound up in Korea. - -Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question before we leave the New York period? - -While you were there, was there any discussion about these absences -from school which I think took place just the months before you were -there--although I am not absolutely clear on that. It seems to me as -I understand it your mother and Lee arrived in the Bronx area around -September of '52, I think it was, and this was in the summer of '53 -that you visited them there, is that correct? - -Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. So that according to what I recall--and this may not be -accurate--what is referred to as the truancy, the 46 days absence from -school, had occurred some time prior to your visit. Maybe you do not -recall that. That did not come up at all? - -Mr. OSWALD. No; it did not come up at all. - -Mr. DULLES. Did anything come up about a psychiatric examination? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it did not. - -Representative FORD. There was no mention of the farm? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. So the psychiatric examination was not mentioned in your -presence? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. It had taken place I think in May of 1953. - -Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir--mother did mention that Lee had appeared -before a judge, and she said it was a Negro judge. I asked why, and she -said because he had been absent from school too long, no specific dates -or length of time was mentioned, and that they were stricter in New -York about that than in Texas. - -Representative FORD. Did this bother her, disturb her? Did she indicate -the reaction to that? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir--at that time I do not recall any reaction that she -had, or any comment she made about it. She just very briefly stated -that he had appeared before this Negro judge in New York City, and just -what I previously related about it. That was the only thing she said -about it. - -Representative FORD. She did not mention a man named Carro? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; nobody's name was mentioned, not even the judge's -name. - -Mr. JENNER. To the best of your present recollection, that is about -all that occurred in the way of conversation respecting some possible -truancy? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That is all you now can recall. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. You were mustered out of the Marines in July of 1955. - -Mr. OSWALD. That's correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you return--well, when you were mustered out, where did -you go? - -Mr. OSWALD. Fort Worth, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. And where were your mother and brother living at that time? - -Mr. OSWALD. In New Orleans, La. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you still single? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you explain why you went to Fort Worth, Tex., rather -than to New Orleans? - -Mr. OSWALD. I considered Fort Worth, Tex., my home. I wanted to go -there. I had quite a few friends. I wanted to find a job in Fort Worth, -Tex. And that is where I wanted to live. - -Mr. JENNER. And you did undertake residence there? - -Mr. OSWALD. I did, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you continued to be a resident of Fort Worth, Tex., -ever since? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not. - -Mr. JENNER. Indicate in short compass where you have resided since you -got out of the service? - -Mr. OSWALD. From 1955 I resided in Fort Worth, Tex., until March of -1963. From March of 1963 until September 1963, I resided in Malvern, -Ark. And from September until present date I have resided in Denton, -Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you visit your mother and your brother in New Orleans -when you returned from the service in July of 1955? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. I did not--yes, sir, it was in July 1955 -when I made my first trip from Fort Worth, Tex., to New Orleans, La. I -had purchased a car the second day I was home from the service, a 1951 -Chevrolet, and I drove it on the third day or the second night to New -Orleans, La. - -Mr. JENNER. Were your quarters in a hotel, or did you join your brother -and mother? - -Mr. OSWALD. I joined my mother and brother. - -Mr. JENNER. How long did you stay in New Orleans on that trip? - -Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 1 week. - -Mr. JENNER. And you lived with your mother and brother? - -Mr. OSWALD. That's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. That was in July of 1955? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that's correct. - -Mr. JENNER. He was not in school at that time. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was not. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, how did you find your brother, as to the state of -health and state of mind? - -Mr. OSWALD. He seemed to be the same to me. He had joined at that -time--no, sir--he had not at that time been in the Civil Air Patrol. -At that time Lee was working I believe for an export firm there in New -Orleans. I do not know the name of it. I do not believe I ever heard -the name of it. I might have. Mother was also working at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you seen your brother in the interim--that is the -interim between the 10-day leave in New York City and your return from -Korea in July of 1955? - -Mr. OSWALD. There was one leave, or perhaps it was this time in 1955 -that Lee was in the Civil Air Patrol there in New Orleans, because I -remember his uniform that he had. And we went out to lunch on a Sunday -afternoon. And he had his uniform on--mother, he, and I. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Robert, he asked you this--if between the time you went -to New York City and left there, and the time you went to Korea and -came back, and you were mustered out of the Marine Corps, did you see -your brother at any time during that period of time? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I recall now. Leaving Miami, Fla., in -1954--January or February--I took another 10-day leave, I believe it -was, and I traveled to New Orleans first, where mother and Lee was, and -at this time he was in the Civil Air Patrol. And I spent 3 or 4 days -there in New Orleans. - -Mr. JENNER. You stayed with your mother and brother? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes; I did. - -Mr. DULLES. When you come to a good place, Mr. Jenner, we will stop for -5 minutes. - -Mr. JENNER. The Commission's convenience is my convenience. - -Representative BOGGS. May I ask one or two questions. - -Your brother John--is he alive? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Representative BOGGS. Where is he? - -Mr. OSWALD. San Antonio, Tex., in the U.S. Air Force. - -Mr. DULLES. He is a half brother. - -Representative BOGGS. He is your older brother? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Representative BOGGS. How old is he? - -Mr. OSWALD. He is 32 now. - -Representative BOGGS. You never had any problems in school or in the -Marine Corps, did you--I mean serious problems? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; no serious problems. - -Representative BOGGS. You always had problems. But you never were in -any trouble? - -Mr. OSWALD. I have never been in any serious trouble in my life. - -Representative BOGGS. Ever been arrested? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. The only time I was on the inside of a jail was -one time in Hazel, Tex., when I refused to sign a traffic ticket on the -spot and I requested to be taken to the courthouse. - -Representative BOGGS. Did you ever have any psychiatric mental troubles? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Representative BOGGS. Did you consider your brother a normal human -being? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I most certainly did. - -Representative BOGGS. In every way? - -Mr. OSWALD. In every way. - -Representative BOGGS. Did he ever give you any indications of -being--did he ever discuss with you such things as shooting at General -Walker? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. McKENZIE. In order to clear something up, Mr. Boggs, let me ask one -question, if I may, for the record. - -Mr. DULLES. Please. Do you want this on the record or off? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Robert, from the time that your brother, Lee Harvey -Oswald came back from Russia, when was this? - -Mr. OSWALD. This was in June 1962. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And then when was the next time that you saw him after he -came to your home in Fort Worth, Tex., in June of 1962? - -Mr. DULLES. Just after he returned from Russia? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes. - -Mr. OSWALD. I saw him on a number of occasions there in Fort Worth, -Tex., after he moved out of my residence to mother's, from mother's -apartment to his apartment with Marina, and the children, and when they -moved to Dallas, Tex., that was the last time I saw him. - -Mr. McKENZIE. When did he move to Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. OSWALD. This was approximately October 1962. - -Mr. McKENZIE. All right, from the time of October 1962, when was--from -then when was the next time you saw him? - -Mr. OSWALD. On November 23, 1963. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Where was that? - -Mr. OSWALD. At the Dallas County Jail or Dallas City Jail. - -Mr. McKENZIE. It was the Dallas City Jail. - -Mr. OSWALD. Dallas City Jail. - -Mr. McKENZIE. What were those circumstances? Were you in a room with -him or were you talking to him through a partition or over a telephone -or what, explain that to the Commission, if you will? - -Mr. OSWALD. I was talking to him over a telephone through a glass -window, and he was on the locked side. - -Mr. McKENZIE. So for a period of over a year from the time he left Fort -Worth and moved to Dallas, Tex., you did not see him, is that correct? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. McKENZIE. All right - -Representative BOGGS. When you last saw him was October 1962, is that -what you said? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And you had previously seen him when he resided in your -home for how long a period of time? - -Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 6 to 8 weeks. - -Mr. DULLES. I imagine this would be covered later but it fits in. I -think you are quite right. I have a question or two. - -Representative BOGGS. I have to go back to the House in a few minutes. - -Mr. DULLES. Go right ahead. Ask him any questions you wish to. - -Representative BOGGS. At the time he resided in your home these 6 or 8 -weeks were your relations with him cordial or friendly? - -Mr. OSWALD. It was cordial, yes, more or less like he had not been to -Russia. We were just together again. - -Representative BOGGS. Did you have any political discussions with him -at any time? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Representative BOGGS. He never discussed political matters with you? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. I would say we had a tacit agreement -it was never brought up. - -Representative BOGGS. By tacit, do you mean that---- - -Mr. OSWALD. An unspoken agreement that we never would discuss it. - -Representative BOGGS. I understand. Had you arrived at this agreement -because on previous occasions you had disagreed about political matters? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that was not the reason. We just never discussed -politics. - -Representative BOGGS. Did you have any interest in political affairs, I -mean---- - -Mr. OSWALD. A little bit, sir. - -Representative BOGGS. I mean from a philosophical point of view? - -Mr. OSWALD. My own interest in politics from a philosophical point -of view would be that I considered myself a conservative, a born -conservative. Certainly agreed 100 percent with the U.S. Constitution -and the laws that are set forth, and it is my upbringing, it is what I -always believed in and I will always believe in it. - -Representative FORD. Did you say that was your mother's philosophy, too? - -Mr. McKENZIE. No, sir; he did not say. - -Mr. OSWALD. Would I say that? - -Representative FORD. Yes. - -Mr. OSWALD. I would say--I will tell you, at this present time I feel -like perhaps she has been hurt a great deal and perhaps her thinking -is being changed at this very moment and at the present time since -November 22d. - -But prior to that time my opinion would be that she would be of the -same opinion that I was. - -Representative FORD. That is why you said your attitude was based on -your upbringing. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Of course, to qualify that my mother didn't -actually bring me up too much. The orphan home and the military -academy, and I believe there my basic philosophy was formulated. It was -a very good school. - -Representative BOGGS. What military academy was that? - -Mr. OSWALD. Chamberlain Hunt Military Academy at Port Gibson, Miss. - -Representative FORD. During the 6 or 8 weeks that Lee resided in your -home, did he ever indicate why he went to Russia? You must have talked -about it some. - -Mr. OSWALD. There again I believe we did more talking through the mails -about why he went to Russia than we did when he returned from Russia. -I, of course, wanted to talk to him about this. - -Mr. DULLES. You have those letters, I believe. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we have those letters. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Those letters have already been given to the Commission. - -Mr. JENNER. We will present them in evidence, I think probably this -afternoon. - -Representative BOGGS. Did he ever tell you? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not point blank did he ever tell me why he went to -Russia. - -Representative BOGGS. Did he tell you why he came back? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that he was in--the letters that I have from him -while he was in Russia would indicate the same thing, that he was very -unhappy living in Russia and he wanted to return to the United States, -which, of course, made me very happy, and I felt like, and tried to -look at it from the standpoint that maybe he just sowed some wild oats. -He kind of went off to the far end of it, but I believe everyone of us -at one time, especially around that age, might have done something or -reached out far afield, so to speak, before we came to our senses and -returned to a normal life. - -Mr. DULLES. Did he seem different when he came back from Russia, was -there a change in the man before and after? - -Mr. OSWALD. Physically? - -Mr. DULLES. No, I mean at all--changes, outlook, attitude and -general---- - -Mr. OSWALD. The mental attitude he had from his letters that he wrote -me when he first arrived in Russia were quite disturbing to me. -Statements, various statements, I can't quote them word for word, but -in the line of--well, he wanted to denounce his citizenship. He was a -Marxist and he was a Communist and he wanted to stay in Russia, and so -forth. - -But when he started writing again in 1961--yes, 1961, his letters -certainly indicated that he had changed his mind, and that he wanted to -return to the United States and start his life as a U.S. citizen. - -Representative BOGGS. You got to know Mrs. Oswald when she returned -with him? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Representative BOGGS. Was the relationship between your family and your -wife and Mrs. Oswald, of course, I realize you had a language barrier, -but was it pleasant? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I would describe it as very pleasant. We -immediately, my wife and I both, took to Marina and June, the baby, at -that time, and my wife and I both were just tickled to death, so to -speak, for an opportunity to be with somebody like Marina and to show -her things that she had never seen before in her life. - -Representative BOGGS. In the time, of course, you had known her ever -since she came here, and you have seen her since the assassination of -President Kennedy, have you had any feeling that she was anything other -than a normal housewife? You know there has been speculation that in -light of the fact she was born in Russia and that she got an exit visa -without too much difficulty that maybe she had connections that were -not entirely just that of a normal housewife. Did you ever have any -feeling---- - -Mr. OSWALD. The only time I had any reservations about Marina Oswald -was on Friday, November 22, until approximately 2 days later. I say -during this 2-day period I was not sure whether or not she had been -involved in any of the happenings of that date. I wanted not to -believe that she did, but I wanted to be cautious about it. I believe -on Sunday night, November 24, in my presence she gave a complete--and -freely stated everything up to that time that she was aware of to the -U.S. Secret Service on a tape recorder. And I formulated my opinion -then that apparently, and I feel this way now, that she did not have -anything to do with that, and she is nothing other than just what she -appears to be, just a housewife, having a very difficult time at this -time. - -Representative BOGGS. Have you in your own mind reached any conclusions -on whether or not your brother killed President Kennedy? - -Mr. OSWALD. Based on the circumstantial evidence that has been reported -in newspapers and over the radio and television, I would have to say -that it appears that he did kill President Kennedy. - -Representative BOGGS. Would you, having reached that conclusion under -the circumstances that you outlined a moment ago, and having known him -all of his life, although not too intimately the last year of his life, -would you give us any reason for why he may have done this? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I could not. - -Representative BOGGS. It came as, I would think, a great shock to you? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it certainly did, and I might add that the Lee -Harvey Oswald that I knew would not have killed anybody. - -Representative BOGGS. Have you discussed this matter with your -stepbrother since it happened? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Representative BOGGS. This, as I understand, Mr. Counsel, is hearsay -but we are just trying to establish---- - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Boggs, in order that the record be absolutely clear, -you were not here when we commenced this morning due to your duties at -the House, let me state this for the purpose of the record and yourself -and the entire Commission, you ask Robert Oswald any question that you -want to ask him. - -Representative BOGGS. Thank you very much. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And furthermore, any information we have or any -information we can get from any source will likewise be turned over to -the Federal Bureau of Investigation or to this Commission or to any -other investigative agency, because---- - -Representative BOGGS. The mandate that we are operating under is that -we discover the truth. - -Mr. McKENZIE. I can assure you, sir, that the main reason that we are -here, and I speak for Robert Oswald, is to see that the truth is given -fully, and developed as fully as possible, to give any light to this -tragic event. - -Representative BOGGS. I just have one or two other questions. - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe your last question was whether or not---- - -Representative BOGGS. I am frankly reluctant to ask you the question, -but you and your brother John must have speculated about how this event -could have happened, did you not? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, and no, sir. To this extent: On Sunday night November -24, with the help of the Secret Service, I was able to reach my older -brother John by telephone. He did not have a telephone in his house. We -had to go through the Air Force base where he was located. - -Mr. DULLES. Where was he living then? - -Mr. OSWALD. In San Antonio with the Air Force. - -I talked to him that night and, of course, at that time he was aware -that Lee had been killed. I talked briefly to him, I say briefly, -perhaps 4 or 5 minutes, and discussed with him whether or not he -thought it was best that he attended the funeral or not, and it was my -opinion that it would not be best for him or his family since he was, -his name was Pic, and to a great extent he would be out of the picture -and there was no sense in exposing him to the publicity of the funeral. -Not to mention the travel time involved in coming up from San Antonio -and the like. - -Mr. DULLES. You were not in touch with him between the time of the -assassination and the arrest of your brother and the time of his death, -the 36 hours? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. You were not in touch with your brother Pic at that time? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not. - -Mr. McKENZIE. But you attempted to reach him? - -Mr. OSWALD. No. - -Mr. McKENZIE. You did afterwards. - -Representative BOGGS. Have you seen much of your mother since the -assassination? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. - -Representative BOGGS. Is this because you had some emotional problems -or difficulties, or what? - -Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I would say, of course, mother was out at the Inn -of Six Flags with Marina and myself and the children during the week -following up to Friday which would be, I believe, the 29th of November, -when she went to her home and I left her to go after my wife and the -children out at the farm, and Marina went over to Mr. Martin's house, -this was the last time I have seen her since then. She has called quite -a few times. I talked to her a number of times on the telephone. She -is rather persistent to the extent that, and this is not new to me, we -have never really gotten along, she tries to dominate me and my wife, -and I might say that applies to John and his family, and also to the -extent that it applied to Lee and his wife, and there is just generally -the picture as far as I and my mother are concerned. - -Representative BOGGS. That is all, Mr. Chairman. - -Mr. DULLES. The testimony we had here from Mrs. Oswald indicated that -it was approximately a year prior to the assassination of the President -that he had not been in touch with his mother, and your testimony is -to the general effect that about the same period, you had not been in -touch. - -Is that just a coincidence, or did something happen about that time so -that both of you, both brothers more or less separated from the mother? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir---- - -Mr. DULLES. Maybe it is geographic, maybe there is some other reason -for it. - -Representative BOGGS. I had understood him to say he had not been in -contact with his brother Lee, I didn't hear him say anything about his -mother. - -Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct. For the year prior to November 22d had -you been in touch with your mother or had your mother been in touch -with you, Robert? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; we had not been in touch. - -Representative BOGGS. Your mother in her testimony before the -Commission, gave the impression and later in press stories that she -thought that maybe your brother was an agent of the CIA. Did you ever -have any reason to think that? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; and the only time the thought ever entered my -mind as to him being an agent of the CIA or any other U.S. Government -bureau was on his return from Russia while residing at my residence in -Fort Worth, the FBI had called and requested that he come down for an -interview there in Fort Worth. On the completion of his interview when -I came home from work that night, he discussed it briefly and I asked -him how did they treat him, and so forth. He said just fine, and he -says, "They asked me was I a secret agent," or some type of agent for -the U.S. Government and he laughed and he said, "Well, don't you know?" -I remember that. That was just crossed out of my mind. - -Representative FORD. Between November 22 and the last time you saw your -mother did she ever mention to you that she thought Lee was an agent of -the Federal Government? - -Mr. OSWALD. This was prior to November 22? - -Representative FORD. No, from November 22 until the last time you saw -your mother, did she ever mention to you that she thought Lee was an -agent of the Federal Government? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she did. - -Representative FORD. Can you tell us when? - -Mr. OSWALD. During the middle to the latter part of the week that we -were at the Inn of the Six Flags, and at least one conversation since -we left the Inn of the Six Flags, I think it took place during December -1963. - -Mr. JENNER. By telephone or personal? - -Mr. OSWALD. By telephone, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough to relate--for Representative -Ford--who was present, what the circumstances were, what was said, and -in the presence of whom by your mother at the Six Flags? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe it was just mother and I, and I might say on -numerous occasions she pulled me to one side or to one room to say -something to me. It was on one of these occasions that she was talking -to me about this. - -Mr. JENNER. Relate as closely as you can recall it now what did she say? - -Mr. OSWALD. She said she had knowledge of facts in writing that almost -conclusively proved to her that Lee was an agent of the CIA. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she identify the facts in writing? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of her on that subject? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ask her to state to you the basis, any specific -basis of hers on which she predicated her statement? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did ask her if she had such facts to please give -it to the U.S. Secret Service. - -Representative FORD. What did she say to that? - -Mr. OSWALD. I think she more or less shrugged her shoulders and walked -off. - -Mr. DULLES. Had she been in touch with the man who has appeared as her -counsel at that time, Mr. Lane? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she had not. - -Mr. DULLES. She had not. - -Representative BOGGS. You at various times have tried to help your -mother, I gather, while you were growing up. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Representative BOGGS. I gather you found it rather difficult even when -you were younger to get along with your mother? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir, is that also true of your brother, Lee, and -your brother, John? - -Representative BOGGS. Those were the questions I was about to ask. - -Mr. OSWALD. I would say this would also apply to my older brother John, -and also to Lee. It appears as though Lee was able to put up with her -more than I or my older brother John could. - -Representative BOGGS. Your father died when you were what, about 5? - -Mr. OSWALD. Five years old, sir. - -Representative BOGGS. You were living in New Orleans when he died? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Representative BOGGS. What did he do? - -Mr. OSWALD. He worked for the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company of -New Orleans, in the office in New Orleans. - -Representative FORD. Were your mother and father living a happy normal -life at the time of his death? - -Mr. OSWALD. Well, sir, I was 5 years old and I would say that they -were. Certainly I do not recall any instance that would indicate that -they were not, and I think we had a very fine family atmosphere. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you state for us, please, on the same subject, the -life and relationship between your mother and Mr. Ekdahl, give us -the same thing with respect to that period, did they get along well -normally? - -Mr. OSWALD. Well, I was, of course, older and perhaps remember more, -to this extent that on perhaps two or three occasions, I recall some -very loud arguments where they were in one room with the door closed, -and perhaps I by myself or perhaps in the presence of John was in -another room. Nothing that I can recall that was said during this -arguing other than it was just loud. - -Mr. JENNER. During this period, Representative Boggs, the two boys -John and Robert were at the military school. They were home during the -summer vacation period but otherwise they were in military school. - -Mr. DULLES. I think maybe we ought to give the witness a little rest. -He has been on for 2 hours. - -Hale, have you got anything more you want to ask now? - -Representative BOGGS. No, I would just like to thank the witness for -his cooperation. - -Mr. OSWALD. Thank you, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you have anything? Do you have to go back? - -Representative FORD. I am going to stay until we get some notice from -the House if we have any call or a vote. - -Mr. DULLES. Shall we take just 5 minutes off then and it might be -agreeable. - -(Short recess.) - -Mr. DULLES. Proceed, Mr. Jenner. - -Representative FORD. It would be helpful because we are likely to get -a call almost any time to go back to the House, if I could ask a few -questions. - -Mr. JENNER. Go right ahead. - -Mr. DULLES. Okay. - -Representative FORD. Mr. Oswald, what was your reaction to Lee's -discharge from the Marine Corps? - -Mr. OSWALD. He had an honorable discharge he told me. I had no adverse -reaction to it. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have in mind, Representative Ford, the change in -the status of that discharge? - -Representative FORD. No, I was referring to the circumstances under -which he was discharged prematurely. He did get an honorable discharge -at the outset but he was released prematurely on a hardship basis. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes. - -Representative FORD. Were you familiar with that? - -Mr. OSWALD. I was not familiar with that at the time it was going -on. Of course, I was familiar after he was released on that basis. I -remember Lee telling me, he said, "Well, I only lack a month," or a few -days anyway before his regular release was up and I believe that was -all that was said between Lee and I about it. - -Representative FORD. When did you learn about the change in his -discharge? - -Mr. OSWALD. Sometime during the year of 1960, through my mother. She -had advised me at that time she had received mail for Lee from the -Marine Corps or from the Navy Department, stating that generally the -reasons he had not notified them of changes of address, and perhaps -even to the extent that he had left the country in the manner that he -did, that it was going to go before a review board, and that he was to -appear before this board to state his case, otherwise it would proceed -without him. Then I became aware that the board's decision was an -undesirable or a dishonorable discharge, I don't recollect which. - -Representative FORD. Did you take any action when you learned of -these circumstances to help your mother or to contact Lee about this -situation? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; because at this time in reference to Lee there he -had already stopped writing to both I and mother and there was no way -that we knew of to contact Lee, and mother said she was going to take -care of it and try to have it postponed or something or other, and the -board reached a final decision. - -Representative FORD. When your mother went to Washington, did she tell -you in advance or give you any indication she was going to do that? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not. I was aware of it after she came back -from Washington. - -Representative FORD. Did she fill you in in some detail about her -return from Washington? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not. She did not go into any particular -detail other than she tried to impress on me she had seen some, as she -put it, some very important and influential people in Washington. And -that was about the text of the conversation in reference to that. - -Representative FORD. Did she volunteer this or did you ask her about it? - -Mr. OSWALD. She volunteered this because I did not know of the trip to -Washington until after she returned from the trip to Washington. She -volunteered information to me that she had been in Washington and saw -numbers of people, different people. - -Representative FORD. The principal information you have about Lee's -return from the Soviet Union is included in the letters that you have -from Lee? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Representative FORD. Those will be submitted subsequently. - -Mr. McKENZIE. They have been submitted already, Mr. Ford. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, did you address me? - -Mr. McKENZIE. The Commission has copies of the letters. - -Representative FORD. The Commission has copies and they will be -submitted for the record. - -Would you care to comment in addition on what you found out from Lee -subsequently of his experiences in the Soviet Union. Why he wanted to -come back? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I never questioned him about that because we -covered it, I believe quite fully in our letters. I was, of course, -thoroughly convinced and quite happy that he did want to return to the -United States and I felt there was no need to go into the reason why he -changed his mind because I believe we had covered that in the letters. - -Representative FORD. At the time he indicated a desire to come back to -the United States, did he ever contact you about funds for that purpose? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I volunteered to help him any way I could on that. -He turned down the offer. He turned it down one time I believe in -letters offering him to come stay at our house when he returned with -his wife and the baby. - -Representative FORD. When he did return, after having borrowed money -from the Federal Government, did he ever ask you for any help and -assistance in repaying the loan? - -Mr. OSWALD. On his arrival in New York City, I believe the date to be -June 13, back in 1962, my wife received a telephone call from Special -Services Welfare Center located at New York City stating that Lee and -his family were present and that they needed funds to reach their -destination, Fort Worth, Tex., and the lady that talked to my wife put -it to the extent they were unable to help them and if some member of -the family was going to help them, they had better do so then. My wife -didn't know anything else to say but of course that we would, and this -is what I wanted her to say. She called me at my office that day. The -banks had closed but I do have a friend in Fort Worth who was employed -at a bank, cashier, I believe his title, and I called him and asked -him if it would be possible to withdraw $200. This was not at my bank, -I would give him a check on my checking account, and at which time I -wired the money to the welfare bureau in New York, care of Lee Harvey -Oswald. - -Representative FORD. And that was the money that they, Marina and Lee, -used to get to Fort Worth. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Representative FORD. Did Lee ever repay you for that? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did. He had actually spent a little over $100 -for the plane tickets and, of course, we met him at Dallas, Love Field, -on their arrival there. The next day even though I insisted that he -keep it, he returned what he had left from the $200 and he said he -would pay me back as soon as he was able to and I told him not to worry -about that, but just to take his time. - -Representative FORD. How long did it take him to repay the remainder? - -Mr. OSWALD. I say approximately $110 to $115 during the period he first -started to work there in Fort Worth and prior to their departure to -Dallas he repaid this $10-$20 a week from his pay check. - -Representative FORD. Did you have any knowledge that Lee had become -fluent in Russian, in the Russian language, at the time he came out of -the Marine Corps? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not. There is also one of his first letters -from the hotel in Russia that he pointed out to me that I didn't -even know that he could write or speak Russian. He was being rather -sarcastic in his first letters, and he pointed this out. I would answer -it that I was not aware that he could speak or could write any foreign -language when he was in the Marine Corps and after he got out of it. - -Representative FORD. You had no prior knowledge that he was studying -Russian or had become articulate in Russian? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Representative FORD. In your experiences with Lee during your lifetime, -did he ever show a skill at language, for languages? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I know of no time nor can I recall of any time -that he studied any foreign language or in my presence that he even -read a book in a foreign language or attempted to teach himself any -type of foreign language. - -Mr. JENNER. Representative Ford, if you have reached a break, I would -like to identify the exhibit the witness provided and also identify the -letter to which you now have reference. - -Would you obtain that telegram and also identify the date of the letter -to which you have lastly made reference so that I may identify our -copies? - -Mr. McKENZIE. November 8, 1959, is the letter, Mr. Jenner, and the -telegram is June 14, 1962. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, we have marked photostatic copies of the -telegram to which the witness referred as having been received from the -Special Welfare Services as Commission Exhibit No. 293, and the letter -of November 18, 1959, as Commission Exhibit 294. - -(The telegram and letter referred to were marked Commission Exhibit -Nos. 293 and 294, respectively, for identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. Would you obtain the original of those or hand the witness -the originals? - -Mr. McKENZIE. I have just handed them to him. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you hand him the original of the letter, please? - -Directing your attention to the telegram first, Mr. Oswald, which is -now marked Commission Exhibit 293, is that the original of the telegram -to which you made reference as having been received first by telephone -call through your wife on June 14, 19---- - -Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, June 13. - -Mr. JENNER. 13? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. This reply that we are referring to here now is -June 14. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mr. OSWALD. We were first contacted on the evening of June 13. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it then, sir, that you received a telephone call on -June 13, is that correct? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Or your wife did. And Exhibit 293 which is dated the 14th, -is what? - -Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Following the receipt of the telephone call on June 13, did -you receive or did you send any communication from or to the New York -Welfare Center? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I sent a telegram on the afternoon of June 13, -1962, wiring a total of $200 to the Special Service Welfare Center at -New York, and also enclosing a message to Lee to contact me or to the -extent that someone there perhaps would notify me when to expect them -in Fort Worth. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you receive word from New York as to when Lee and -Marina might expect to be in Dallas? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. And was that by telegram or telephone? - -Mr. OSWALD. This was by telephone I first received the word. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you receive something in writing that confirmed that? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that document before you? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. It is marked Commission Exhibit 293, and you actually -received that document which is now before you? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. June 14. - -Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit 293, the -document so marked and identified. - -Mr. DULLES. It may be accepted. - -(The document heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 293 was received -in evidence.) - -Mr. JENNER. The letter of November 8, 19--do you have a better copy, is -that 1959? - -Mr. OSWALD. It is 1959. - -Mr. DULLES. May I just ask a question, are we putting in the original -of that or is a photographic copy being substituted for it? - -Mr. JENNER. We are employing as a substitute for the original a -photostatic copy which has been marked Commission Exhibit 293. - -Mr. DULLES. All right. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chairman, could I be excused for just a moment, -please? - -(Short recess.) - -Mr. JENNER. In view of the witness' testimony, may I suggest to the -Commission the feasibility of identifying this particular exhibit -since the witness referred to it in response to the questions put by -Representative Ford. - -Mr. DULLES. All right. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you identify the date of Commission Exhibit 294, the -original? - -Mr. OSWALD. The date of the letter is November 8, 1959. - -Mr. JENNER. Whose handwriting is it? - -Mr. OSWALD. It is in Lee Harvey Oswald's handwriting. - -Mr. JENNER. It is addressed, the second page of the exhibit, is an -envelope, which is addressed to R. Oswald, 7313 Davenport Street, Fort -Worth, Tex., U.S.A., is that you? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you able to identify that which appears in the upper -lefthand corner of the original. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that in Russian? - -Mr. OSWALD. I would assume that it would be. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you receive the letter, Commission Exhibit 294, in due -course? - -Mr. OSWALD. I did. I received it on the 13th day of November 1959. - -Mr. JENNER. Is this the letter to which you made reference in -responding to Representative Ford's questions? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Is the letter in the same condition now and is the envelope -now in the same condition now that it was when you received it except -that the envelope has been opened to remove the contents? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they are. - -Mr. JENNER. Does that include the scratching out that appears at the -bottom of the second page? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that which appears under the attempted obliteration, can -you see what was obliterated on the second page, when you examine the -original? - -Mr. OSWALD. I might refer to the first cross out there, it looks like -he had signed his name there "Lee." The second cross out, one word or -three words or four words out of the five are legible "this written in -Russian" the balance of the words that were crossed out, I cannot make -out. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I would suggest, if I may, that the witness -might read this short letter aloud to the Commission which will, -indicate to the Commission the mental state of Lee Harvey Oswald at -the time he went to Russia in the very early days, and bring it to your -attention immediately. - -Mr. DULLES. What is the date of this? - -Mr. McKENZIE. November 8, 1959, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Proceed, if you will. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Do you mind if I read it, Mr. Jenner, and saving his -voice a little bit? - -Mr. JENNER. No. - -Mr. McKENZIE. This I believe is the second letter that Robert received -from Russia after he had sent a telegram to Lee telling him what a -mistake he had made, and this is the contents of the letter. - -"November 8, 1959. Dear Robert: - -"Well, what shall we talk about? The weather perhaps? Certainly you do -not wish me to speak of my decision to remain in the Soviet Union and -apply for citizenship here since I am afraid you would not be able to -comprehend my reasons. - -"You really don't know anything about me. Do you know, for instance, -that I have waited to do this for well over a year? Do you know that I" -then there is a parenthesis and some Russian printing which I presume -to be Russian and the parenthesis is closed, "speak a fair amount of -Russian which I have been studying for many months? I have been told -that I will not have to leave the Soviet Union if I did not care to. -This then is my decision. I will not leave this country, the Soviet -Union under any conditions. I will never return to the United States -which is a country I hate. Some day perhaps soon and then again perhaps -in a few years I will become a citizen of the Soviet Union, but it is -a very legal process in any event. I will not have to leave the Soviet -Union and I will never leave. - -"I received your telegram and I was glad to hear from you. Only one -word bothered me. The word 'mistake' I assume you mean that I have made -a 'mistake.' It is not for you to tell me this. You cannot understand -my reasons for this very serious action. I will not speak to anyone -from the United States over the telephone since it might be tapped by -the Americans. If you wish to correspond with me you can write to the -below address, but I really don't see what we could talk about. If you -want to send me some money that I can use but I do not expect to be -able to pay it back." - -Then it is signed "Lee", and then over to the left-hand side on the -bottom of the page it says, "Lee Harvey Oswald, Metropole Hotel, Room -233, Moscow, USSR," and then underneath some writing in Russian, which -I take to be Russian, which is scratched out. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you. - -Mr. McKenzie, you have stated that this was the second letter that had -been received by Mr. Robert Oswald following Lee Harvey Oswald's taking -up residence in Russia. Is that correct, Mr. Oswald? - -Mr. McKENZIE. I said it is the second or third letter. I don't know -exactly. - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, it is the first letter, if I may have a -moment here. - -Mr. JENNER. I thought it was the first. - -Mr. McKENZIE. There is one other letter here from Santa Ana, Calif. - -Mr. JENNER. That was earlier. - -Mr. OSWALD. This was the first letter Lee had written to me from Russia. - -Mr. DULLES. Could you refresh my memory as to the date of his arrival -in Russia? - -Mr. OSWALD. October 13. - -Mr. DULLES. October 13. - -Mr. OSWALD. 1959. - -Mr. DULLES. And this was---- - -Mr. JENNER. November 8. - -Mr. DULLES. November 8. He had been there about 3 weeks. - -Mr. OSWALD. The first time I was aware he was in Russia was on -Halloween Day 1959, October 31. - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you. - -Mr. JENNER. My attention is arrested to that portion of the letter in -which there appears to be a reference to a telegram which you had -previously sent him. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you sent him such a telegram? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had. - -Mr. JENNER. What impelled you or induced you to do that? What event, -stimulation? - -Mr. OSWALD. After we were notified that Lee was in Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. Who notified you? - -Mr. OSWALD. Star Telegram reporter in Fort Worth, Tex. Later on that -same day there was quite a few newspaper reporters out to my house. -I first objected to speaking to them until they stated that perhaps -if we cooperated with them they would perhaps be the only source of -information--that they could relay to us when they received anything -about what Lee was doing, and so forth, and I agreed to talk to them. - -After this interview with three or four newspaper reporters they had -left the house, and another man, I do not recall his name, from the -Star Telegram in Fort Worth, came to the house, and I spoke with him, -and I believe at this time he suggested that it would not be wise -because I was asking what did he think as to how I might contact Lee, -and he suggested a letter--pardon me, a telegram, to Secretary of State -Christian Herter, and a telegram to Lee. - -I called the Western Union and sent telegrams, and at this time---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir, telegrams, you sent one to Mr. Herter and -one to your brother? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; sent two. At this time I advised the reporter of -the contents of the telegram. I did not receive confirmation of these -telegrams from Western Union. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it from that you do not have copies? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -However, they are printed in their entirety in the next edition of the -Star Telegram, which I believe would be November 1st edition. - -Mr. JENNER. November 1, 1959? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you please state to the best of your present -recollection what your instruction by way of message was to the Western -Union? - -Mr. OSWALD. In the telegram to Secretary of State Christian Herter, I -requested his assistance in contacting Lee Oswald through any means -available. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you indicate for what purpose, sir? - -Mr. OSWALD. I don't believe I did, sir. - -And the telegram to Lee Harvey Oswald, I asked him to contact me -through any means available. I did use the word "mistake." - -Mr. JENNER. Would you please give me your best recollection of the -message, as you recall it, that you dispatched or ordered dispatched? - -Mr. OSWALD. My best recollection of that is I sent the telegram -to Lee Harvey Oswald care of the U.S. Embassy in Moscow, Russia, -requesting Lee to contact me through any means available, and the one -word "mistake. Keep your nose clean," signed "Robert L. Oswald, 7313 -Davenport." - -Mr. JENNER. The word "mistake" was by itself? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. The phrase of "keep your nose -clean," is something we have said to each other since knee high, so he -would know that I did send the telegram. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you receive a response to that telegram? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not receive a response to either one of the -telegrams. - -Mr. JENNER. Neither from the State Department, Mr. Herter, nor an -assistant on that telegram, nor from your brother Lee on his telegram? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Other than the letter of November 8, 1959, now identified -as Commission Exhibit No. 294? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. It is the first word you had from him in which he -acknowledges or made plain that he had received the telegram? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. DULLES. Excuse me, has 294 been submitted? - -Mr. JENNER. I think it has not. May I offer in evidence as Commission -Exhibit 294 the document that has been so identified. - -Mr. DULLES. Accepted. - -(The document heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 294 was received -in evidence.) - -Mr. JENNER. It being understood with Mr. McKenzie that we may introduce -in evidence the photostatic copy in lieu of the original, the original -having been produced before the Commission. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you speak, did you have any conversation with your -brother upon his return from Russia respecting your dispatch of the -telegram and his reaction to it? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I had more or less forgotten it myself. - -Mr. JENNER. There is a reference in your brother's letter of November -8 to his reluctance to engage in a telephone conversation. Had you -attempted to reach him by telephone? - -Mr. OSWALD. I had decided to try to reach him by telephone on Sunday, -November 1, 1959. I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. You were unable to, you mean? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I placed the call and I received the -New York operator, overseas operator, and there was some discussion as -to what time it was in Moscow, and so forth, and I changed my mind and -did not. However, I am aware that my mother tried and did for a moment -have Lee on the telephone in Moscow. - -Mr. JENNER. At that time? - -Mr. OSWALD. At approximately that same date. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever make any effort to reach him by telephone -thereafter? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he reach you by telephone or attempt to do so as far as -you know? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my knowledge did he. - -Mr. JENNER. There is a reference in the letter of November 8 to his -willingness to accept money from you if you would send any. Did you -send him any money? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. My reply to that was if he used it to -come back I would gladly send it. - -Mr. JENNER. Your reply--did you write him a letter? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have a copy of that letter? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not have a copy of any letter that I wrote to -him. - -Mr. JENNER. You do not know the whereabouts of that letter? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not, other than to say that I asked Mrs. -Marina Oswald if Lee kept any of my letters and her reply was that "No, -he always threw them away." - -Mr. JENNER. In view of that, Mr. Oswald, would you please recite to the -best of your recollection the contents of your letter in response to -your brother's letter of November 8, 1959? - -Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I do not remember anything other than that statement -referring to the money request. I do not recall anything else in the -letter. - -Mr. JENNER. You have heard Mr. McKenzie read that letter through. Did -it refresh your recollection, or does it as to whether you made any -comment upon his political statements in his letter to you of November -8? - -Mr. OSWALD. I do not believe I did at any time make any statement in -reference to his political statements that he made in the letter of -November 8. Generally, my statements to the members of the press at the -time was that I felt Lee was not aware of what he was doing. I believe -I referred to him as a kid. And that he just generally didn't know what -he was doing, and that was just about the general text of anything I -had to say to the members of the press at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. There is an entry in your brother's diary of November 1, -1959, somewhat cryptic, referring to three telephone calls from mother -and brother. Now you say you didn't call. Do you know whether your -brother John ever called him? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not to my knowledge. However, that was November 1, -sir, 1959. - -Mr. JENNER. That is when the entry was made. - -Mr. OSWALD. I would say that he did not at that time try to contact -Lee by telephone, because I do not believe at that early date--he was -in Japan and was not aware that Lee had gone to Russia, because we -were just aware of it on October 31, and recalling a letter from John -over there, that he was not aware of it for a number of days after he -actually went over there. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. But efforts were made on the part of your mother to -reach him or she did reach him by telephone? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I understand he spoke to her briefly, and then he -hung up. - -Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of refreshing your recollection, would you -be good enough to read your brother's letter to you or what purports to -be your brother's letter to you of November 26, 1959, and in reading -through it--the reason I have asked you to look at it is that the -letter is framed as a response to what apparently were questions that -you put to him in your letter which was in response to his letter of -November 8, and seeking to refresh your recollection as to the contents -of your letter. - -Mr. Chairman, this is a fairly long letter, and if Chief Justice Warren -has a little time perhaps we might have Mr. Oswald read the letter over -this evening since we are quite late in the day and I can pursue it -tomorrow. - -Mr. DULLES. I think we had better adjourn fairly soon. - -Mr. JENNER. This would be a convenient time if it is convenient with -you gentlemen. - -The CHAIRMAN. What does Mr. McKenzie think, I see him smiling. - -Mr. McKENZIE. I am not going to place myself in a position, Mr. Chief -Justice, of overruling either you or Mr. Dulles. - -Mr. JENNER. I can question the witness with respect to some unrelated -matters. That matter is not related to this, if I might. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, one thing I would appreciate if you could -bring out in response to some of Mr. Bogg's questions which I don't -believe he was quite clear on, I would like for the sake of the -record to show what Robert's career in the Marine Corps was from the -standpoint of whether he was a noncommissioned officer, and so forth, -and so on, if you could bring that out. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -I had asked him to state his military career and maybe out of modesty -he just left left that out. - -Would you--you did give us in detail in your various stages and your -specialty. - -Mr. OSWALD. I might say going through boot camp at San Diego, Calif., -during the second week of boot training I was selected as the right -guide of the platoon which actually was a go-between the drill -instructors and the rest of the platoon, and I retained that position -all the way through the remainder of the boot camp. On completion of -boot camp I was a Pfc. I retained that--excuse me, I retained that rank -until I went to Miami, Fla., at which time on my departure from Miami, -Fla., I received my corporal's stripe, and prior to leaving Korea in -April of 1955 I received my sergeant's stripe which was my last stripe -that I received in the Marine Corps. - -I did receive, of course, an honorable discharge, a Good Conduct Medal, -and the various citations of the unit in Korea, Presidential Unit -Citations, and such. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Thank you. - -I can't recall whether it was Representative Boggs or Representative -Ford who was questioning you about conversations between yourself -and your mother regarding her claim that your brother may have been -a representative of the CIA or some other government agency, and you -mentioned there were two occasions. I did ask you to state the detail -of one of the occasions which was in the Six Flags Motel in Dallas. - -Would you please state where the second conversation took place and who -was present and what was said? - -Mr. OSWALD. The second conversation took place over the telephone in a -call that originated from my mother's house in Fort Worth, Tex., to my -home in Denton, Tex. - -I do not know if my wife was present at my end or who was present on -the other end, at my mother's home. - -Mr. JENNER. You recognized her voice? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. It was your mother? - -Mr. OSWALD. It was my mother. - -Mr. JENNER. What did she say on the subject? - -Mr. OSWALD. She was still pursuing this question or this speculation as -far as I am concerned that Lee was an agent of the CIA, and that she -was going to be able to, I believe use used the word "concrete", to be -able to concretely establish that with the officials. - -Mr. JENNER. You fixed that as having occurred subsequent to the -occasion in the Six Flags Motel? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Can you fix the time of the second occasion more definitely -than that it followed the other? - -Mr. OSWALD. I would say this was approximately during the week of -December 9, 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it before or after her trip to Washington which you -have testified about when Mr. Ford questioned you? - -Mr. OSWALD. This was before her trip to Washington. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, when your mother returned from Washington, when she -made her trip here about which you testified in response to questions -from Representative Ford, did she say anything about her claim or -speculation, as you put it, that your brother was or might have been an -agent of the CIA or some other agency of the United States? - -Mr. OSWALD. I have not talked to my mother since she has been to -Washington. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. So there has been no claim by her to you since the -occasion of the second conversation which was a telephone call? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. During the time of your youth and your association with -your brother Lee you testified this morning of the normal interest of -boys in firearms. You have also testified that your brother Lee was -right handed. Did you ever see him handle even a toy pistol or a cap -gun other than with his right hand? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not that I can remember. You, of course, recall -sometimes when maybe he was Two-Gun Pete, so to speak. - -Mr. JENNER. He was what? - -Mr. OSWALD. He was Two-Gun Pete, so to speak, when we were playing cops -and robbers or cowboys and Indians, where he would have two guns. - -Mr. JENNER. With the exception of having two guns when he had one he -had it in his right hand? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. What ever type of playing, shooting, sitting, or otherwise, -he always had the pistol, rifle or cap gun in his right hand? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You said you were using B-B guns. Were there occasions when -Lee also occasionally shot a B-B gun rifle? - -Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I have a recollection that when he was mustered out of the -service in September of 1959 he spent two or three days at home in Fort -Worth. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And there was an occasion when you and he and some friends -of yours went on a hunting trip. - -Mr. OSWALD. My brother-in-law. - -Mr. JENNER. Or you went squirrel shooting or rabbit shooting. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Just the two of you, or did anybody accompany you? - -Mr. OSWALD. Three of us. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have a rifle? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Those I take it were .22's. - -Mr. OSWALD. All three were .22 caliber, that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Where did you obtain them? - -Mr. OSWALD. Two of them belonged to me and one of them belonged to my -brother-in-law. - -Mr. JENNER. Your brother-in-law? - -Mr. OSWALD. My brother-in-law. - -Mr. JENNER. What is his name? - -Mr. OSWALD. S. R. Mercer, Jr. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the occasion of this trip? How did it come about? -Did you suggest it, your brother-in-law, Lee or how? - -Mr. OSWALD. The day that I recall that Lee stayed with us in--between -the time he was discharged and the time he was supposed to be leaving -for New Orleans was a period of 2 to 3 days. One of those days, I -feel sure was a Saturday, either we spent all day out at my in-laws' -farm or the afternoon at the farm at which time Lee and I, and my -brother-in-law went hunting. - -Mr. DULLES. Was this a couple of days before he left for Russia? - -Mr. OSWALD. This was a couple of days before he left for New Orleans or -about 1 day or 2 days before he left for New Orleans. - -Mr. DULLES. And then he shipped out? - -Mr. OSWALD. To locate a job. - -Mr. JENNER. On that occasion, that incident, did he have occasion to -discharge the .22 caliber rifle he was carrying? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see him do so? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. From what shoulder did he, against which shoulder did he -place the butt of the gun? - -Mr. OSWALD. The right shoulder. - -Mr. JENNER. And with which hand or fingers of which hand did he pull -the trigger and discharge the gun? - -Mr. OSWALD. The right hand, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he exhibit any proficiency in the use of that .22 -caliber gun on that occasion? - -Mr. OSWALD. I would say an average amount. - -Mr. JENNER. Hunting rabbits or squirrels with a rifle takes pretty good -marksmanship. Did any of you boys bring down a rabbit or squirrel, on -the fly, I mean? - -Mr. OSWALD. As I recall, one small, very small cottontail as he ran -across the peanut field, all three of us were shooting at him, and -my weapon that I had, one of the weapons that belonged to me, was a -semiautomatic 22 and I perhaps had a burst of four or five rounds that -I said I got him. But all three of us were shooting at him. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Did all three of you claim him? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that your only victory on that hunting trip or did -someone else shoot down a squirrel or a rabbit? - -Mr. OSWALD. No squirrels were killed that day and perhaps I believe -this was the occasion that we went into what we called a briar patch -located off to the left of the farmhouse; at that particular time it -was very thick with cottontails, and I believe we exterminated about -eight of them at that time between the three of us because it was the -type of brush and thorns that didn't grow very high but we were able to -see over them, so getting three of us out there it wasn't very hard to -kill eight of them. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, had you and your brother engaged in this very light -form of hunting at any other time during your lifetime? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you indicate the frequency of that? - -Mr. OSWALD. If I recall, only one other occasion that we had been -hunting together. This was during a leave that Lee had from the Marine -Corps. - -Mr. JENNER. During a leave that he had? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And at which time, if I may correct myself there, -another time comes to mind, I recall two times that we had this type -of light hunting out there at that farm, at the same place. One time -was during a leave that he had from the Marine Corps. I don't recall -of any game at that particular time that we shot. I know we did handle -the rifle and fired maybe target practice, something along that line. I -don't recall of anything. - -The second time that I now remember is during his stay after he -returned from Russia, during his stay at my home in Fort Worth, that my -wife and I and our children took him and his wife and child out to the -farm to meet our in-laws, my in-laws, and also to do a little hunting -while we was out there, and which we did just a very little bit. I -believe this was on a Sunday afternoon and we didn't stay out very long. - -Mr. JENNER. What weapons did you use on that occasion? - -Mr. OSWALD. On that occasion, I believe the same weapons we used before. - -Mr. JENNER. Would that be true of all three occasions? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe on the first occasion, which was the occasion -that Lee came home on leave, that at that time I only owned one .22 -rifle. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that the semiautomatic? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not the semiautomatic, it was a bolt -action rifle, with a clip on it. However, I believe Lee either used my -brother-in-law's rifle---- - -Mr. JENNER. Was that a bolt-action rifle? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is a bolt-action rifle. He either used that -rifle or a single-shot, bolt-action rifle, another .22 that was out at -the farm. - -Mr. JENNER. On the occasion during which you went hunting during -that 3-day period, interregnum his return and his discharge and his -departure for New Orleans, was the weapon he employed a bolt-action -weapon? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it a fair statement on my part that on all the occasions -that you recall hunting with Lee he employed a bolt-action rifle? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. During your youth and prior to these occasions about which -you testified, do you know of the fact or know by rumor or otherwise -that your brother engaged in this light hunting or other kind of -hunting where he used a firearm even though he was not with you or you -did not accompany him? - -Mr. OSWALD. I feel surely that he did, without recalling any particular -time that he told me, but his interest along that line was generally -like mine, that is hunting and fishing, and I am sure when he had an -opportunity to hunt that he did do so. - -Mr. DULLES. Did he ever tell you about hunting in Russia? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you relate that, please, tell us when the -conversation took place and the circumstances, if it was a conversation? - -Mr. OSWALD. The circumstances was it was in a letter I received from -him. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that one of the letters you produced? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any conversation with him in addition to the -letter, apart from the letter? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe I did along that line because as I stated our -interests in hunting and fishing was mutual and he did state that he -was able to---- - -Mr. JENNER. In response to Mr. Dulles' question, would you give the -conversation? We will take care of the letter in the morning. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am trying to give the conversation. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you. Proceed. - -Mr. OSWALD. That we talked about hunting over there, and he said that -he had only been hunting a half dozen times, and so forth, and that he -had only used a shotgun, and a couple of times he did shoot a duck. - -Mr. JENNER. It was all shotgun shooting, no rifle shooting? - -Mr. OSWALD. No rifle shooting, no sir. That is all they were allowed to -have, the shotgun. - -Mr. JENNER. This conversation took place, as I understand it, on his -return from Russia when he was living with you for that month, that -would be June-July of 1962? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And that is the extent of the conversation? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is. - -Mr. JENNER. As you now recall it--there have been some reports, and -they are only reports as far as we of the staff are concerned, of -speculation about a television set, whether your brother purchased or -owned a television set and whether he purchased it outright or on time -with a guarantee from you. - -What information or knowledge do you have in that connection? - -Mr. OSWALD. I am not aware that he purchased a television set, sir. I -did at his request, when he and Marina and the baby were living in Fort -Worth. - -Mr. JENNER. Where in Fort Worth? - -Mr. OSWALD. Mercedes Street in Fort Worth, in a small duplex which -was---- - -Mr. JENNER. Can you fix even more definitely the time of this event? - -Mr. OSWALD. This was approximately the latter part of September, 1962. -And at his request---- - -Mr. JENNER. He came to you, excuse me. - -Mr. OSWALD. He called me, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. He called you by telephone? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he called me at my office from his place of -employment in Fort Worth at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. Give us the substance of what he said. - -Mr. OSWALD. We talked briefly about how each family was doing, and so -forth, and he said that he would like to establish credit and he had -tried to charge something at Montgomery Ward's at Fort Worth, the West -7th Street store, and they had stated that he needed to have somebody -cosign or vouch for him, and this was his request to me, and I said -gladly I would do so, and late that afternoon after work, this was -approximately 5:30 by the time I arrived at Montgomery Ward, I did -sign for Lee's charge account. However, I was not aware of what he was -charging. - -Mr. JENNER. There was no discussion, I take it, at that time of -what--the use to which he intended to put his credit? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I believe perhaps he did mention something about a -baby chair and a baby bed. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there ever any discussion between you about his -purchase or acquisition of a television set? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you ever in his home or apartment? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I was. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see a television set there? - -Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, you are referring to the apartment on Mercedes -Street, is that correct? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, I was in his home quite a few times and there was not -a television set that I remember. - -Mr. JENNER. On any occasion that you were there? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. On any occasion when you were in any place of residence -of your brother after his return to the United States, did you see in -those premises a television set? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Where was that? - -Mr. OSWALD. At my house and at my mother's house. - -Mr. JENNER. I should have been more specific and identified a residence -as one of his own rather than living with you or living with your -mother. - -Mr. OSWALD. At no residence that he lived in that I was aware of at any -time did I see him with a television set that I would take to be his -own. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussions--did any discussion ever -occur between the two of you with respect to his acquisition of a -television set? - -Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. This is, as far as you are concerned, a total blank, this -television set matter? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. I think we had better adjourn pretty soon. This man has had -quite an ordeal for the day. - -Mr. JENNER. It is acceptable. - -Mr. DULLES. Is it acceptable to you? - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes. - -Mr. OSWALD. I have no objection to continuing. - -Mr. McKENZIE. If you would prefer to reconvene tomorrow morning we can -reconvene then. - -Mr. RANKIN. I think 9 o'clock is better. I think we can finish up in -the morning. - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you. At 9 o'clock in the morning. - -(Whereupon, at 5:15 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -_Friday, February 21, 1964_ - -TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWARD LEE OSWALD RESUMED - -The President's Commission met at 9 a.m. on February 21, 1964, at 200 -Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. - -Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; and Allen W. Dulles, -member. - -Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Albert E. Jenner, -Jr., assistant counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; and -William McKenzie, attorney for Robert Edward Lee Oswald. - - -The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, the Commission will be in order. - -As yesterday, I will only be able to be here for a comparatively short -time, because we have our weekly conference of the Supreme Court today. -And when I leave, Mr. Allen Dulles will conduct the hearing. We will -now proceed with the testimony. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice. - -I would like to return, Mr. Oswald, to the time that your brother Lee -was discharged from military service and spent approximately 3 days at -home. You recall that period? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please describe his physical appearance the -last time you saw him during that 3-day period? - -Mr. OSWALD. His hair was brown and curly, a full set of hair. His -physical appearance--he was trim, weighed approximately 140 pounds, he -was approximately 5 foot 9-1/2, he seemed to be in fine physical shape -at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. I mentioned 3 days. Was I wrong about the 3 days, or was it -a little longer period? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; my recollection on that period was 2 or 3 days, -and only during one of these day do I remember seeing him. He spent the -day at our house. - -Mr. JENNER. It was your impression, sir, that he was in good health, -bright and alert mentally at that time? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he most certainly was. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you describe his physical appearance as far as his head -of hair was concerned? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. A full head of hair? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he appear strained in any respect? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. - -Mr. JENNER. His mental condition, as far as you can tell, is what you -would regard or had regarded as normal during your acquaintance with -him as his brother? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, will you then jump to the first time you saw him -subsequently thereto, which I understand was in June 1962. State the -date, please, as closely as you can. - -Mr. OSWALD. This was June 14, 1962. - -Mr. JENNER. And where did you see him? - -Mr. OSWALD. At Dallas, Love Field. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, on that occasion--and take in also the period of -time that he lived with you in your home during June and part of July -1962--what did you observe, and if in contrast by way of contrast, in -his physical appearance and demeanor as against the last time you had -seen him, in 1959. - -Mr. OSWALD. His appearance had changed to the extent that he had lost -a considerable amount of hair; his hair had become very kinky in -comparison with his naturally curly hair prior to his departure to -Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. Had his hair been in any respect kinky, as you put it, in -November of 1959 immediately prior to his leaving for Russia? - -Mr. OSWALD. That would have been in September. - -Mr. JENNER. September--I am sorry. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not. It was curly. - -Mr. JENNER. Did that arrest your attention, the difference in the -texture of his head of hair? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it certainly did. - -Mr. JENNER. You, though 5 years old at the time of your father's -death--do you recall his physical appearance insofar as his head of -hair? - -Mr. OSWALD. My father's head of hair? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. OSWALD. He had a full set of hair. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any baldness or tendency towards baldness in -your family? - -Mr. OSWALD. None that I am aware of. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I include both your mother and father and relatives on -either side, to the extent that you have met those people. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; no one that I recall that I met, relatives on -either my father's or mother's side, had any tendency towards baldness. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have none? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. JENNER. And your brother John? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. He still has a full head of hair? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Even now? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What else did you observe by way of his facial -appearance--whether he was drawn, or bouncy and healthy, as he had been -when you had seen him in September of 1959? - -Mr. OSWALD. He appeared the first couple of days upon his return, -June 14, 1962, to be rather tense and anxious. I also noted that his -complexion had changed somewhat to the extent that he had always been -very fair complected--his complexion was rather ruddy at this time--you -might say it appeared like an artificial suntan that you get out of a -bottle, but very slight--in other words, a tint of brown to a tint of -yellow. - -Mr. JENNER. What else did you notice by contrast, so far as his -physical appearance is concerned? And then, next, I want to go to his -demeanor. - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe his weight perhaps was a little bit less at that -time. I would say probably 5 pounds--approximately 5 pounds less than -what he was in 1959, before he went to Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you say he appeared drawn as compared with his -appearance in 1959--facially? - -Mr. OSWALD. I would say to some extent; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please relate to the Commission any other -differences, if there were any, in demeanor? - -Mr. OSWALD. To me, he acted the same as he did in 1959 prior to going -to Russia. Our conversations at the time he returned from Russia in -June of 1962--he appeared to be the same boy I had known before, with -the exception of what I noted on his physical appearance. - -As far as his conversations were concerned at this particular time, -June of 1962, I noticed no difference. - -He appeared to have picked up something of an accent. But I took this -to mean that because he had been speaking the Russian language and -living in Russia during a period of approximately two and a half years, -that this was the reason for the accent. - -Mr. JENNER. Did these differences in physical appearance, especially -his hair, his skin tone, his overall facial and physical appearance, -lead you at that moment, in the light of what had occurred in the -meantime, your exchange of correspondence, lead you to form an opinion, -at least tentative, as to what might have occurred or happened to your -brother while he was in Russia? - -Mr. OSWALD. In reference to that, sir; his hair--I did, either on the -first or second night, when he was there at the house--I pointed it out -to him and actually had him bend his head down to where I could look -at the top of it, and it was very thin on the top--you could see just -right down to his scalp. - -And his comment on that was that he thought the weather had affected -his hair, the cold weather. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he make any comments when you met him at Love Field, -and did you ride in with him from Love Field to your home? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. We were in my personal car, and my wife and -my children were with me. We met him and his wife and his baby. He -seemed, perhaps the word is disappointed, when there were no newspaper -reporters around. He did comment on this. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us what he said. - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe his comment was something, "What, no -photographers or anything?" - -I said, "No, I have been able to keep it quiet." - -Mr. JENNER. And where was that remark made? - -Mr. OSWALD. At Love Field, as they came through the gate. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he make any remarks on that subject as you drove into -town? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he make any other comments that arrested your attention -when he arrived at Love Field or while you were driving into town? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did. In reference to newspaper reporters -again, or photographers, he asked me if I had been receiving calls and -so forth, and I told him I had received two or three calls, but I said -nothing, and they were not aware of his schedule of arrival in the -United States, and they were not aware at that time, to my knowledge, -that he had arrived at Love Field, and that he was going to be at my -home. - -Mr. JENNER. Having in mind the changes in physical appearance, and also -the course of events since the day of his arrival at Love Field to the -present time, have you formed an opinion, Mr. Oswald, as to whether -your brother may have undergone some treatment of some kind in Russia -that affected his mind? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Since Lee's death on November 24th, I have formed -an opinion in that respect. - -Mr. JENNER. What is that opinion? - -Mr. OSWALD. That, perhaps in sheer speculation on my part--that due to -the nature of the change in his hair, in the baldness that appeared, -I reached the opinion that perhaps something in the nature of shock -treatments or something along that line had been given him in Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. You base this opinion on any factors other than or in -addition to this change of physical appearance that you noted on his -return from Russia? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. JENNER. Has the course of events affected the opinion you have now -expressed? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; since the course of events, since Friday, -November 22, 1963, his death following on the 24th of November 1963, -I have searched my own mind for possible reasons of why or how this -all came about. That has been one of my opinions--in reference to his -hair structure and so forth, and his baldness--pardon me just a minute, -please. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you concluded your answer? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, thank you. - -Mr. JENNER. Has this course of events and your brother's physical -appearance and any other factors you had in mind led you to form an -opinion as to whether he was or had been an agent of the government of -the USSR? - -Mr. McKENZIE. You are asking him, Mr. Jenner, to speculate. - -Mr. JENNER. I am. - -Mr. OSWALD. May I have that again, please? - -Mr. McKENZIE. His question was--this is off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, may I ask a question at this time? - -Robert, at any time after your brother returned from Russia, or at any -time after he went to Russia, did he ever remark to you as to whether -or not he had been ill while in Russia? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Has his wife, Marina Oswald, ever said anything to you -about whether or not he was ill while he resided in Russia? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she has. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And what did she say? - -Mr. JENNER. Could you fix the time, please? - -Mr. OSWALD. My conversation with Marina Oswald? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 4 weeks ago, in one of our conversations. - -Mr. JENNER. And where did that take place? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe in my car on the way to the cemetery, or -returning from the cemetery, to Mr. Martin's house, in Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. Anyone other than Marina and yourself present? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. State the conversation. - -Mr. OSWALD. If I may fix the date more accurately here, sir; if I could -possibly refer to my diary. - -I recall this conversation on January 13, 1964, between Marina Oswald -and myself in my car, at which time she stated to me---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir, to what are you now referring to refresh -your recollection? - -Mr. OSWALD. This would be to a followup of the conversation we had in -reference to---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--the document. - -Mr. OSWALD. I am referring to my notebook that I have been keeping in -various events that have occurred since November 22, 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, would you read the first -three words and the last three words of the page to which you are -making reference? - -Mr. OSWALD. "Sunday, January 13, 1964. Jim advised that"---- - -Mr. JENNER. That is on the first line? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. The last line is "told her this story." - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Proceed, sir. - -Mr. OSWALD. We had a discussion---- - -Mr. McKENZIE. Pardon me just a second. - -For the sake of the record, let me state this. A copy of this diary has -been furnished to the Commission, photostated by the Commission, and -Mr. Jenner has it in front of him. - -Mr. JENNER. I will qualify it, Mr. Chief Justice. But I didn't want -to take Your Honor's time at the moment, because I do want to cover -another subject while you are still here. - -Proceed, sir. - -Mr. OSWALD. What prompted my question as to whether or not Lee was -ill while he was in Russia was the followup of a conversation that we -had in relation to an incident that occurred some time in the year -of 1963. I am not able to place the date of that purported incident. -I was advised at that time in reference to this incident that on one -day, that Lee was going to shoot at or shoot Mr. Richard M. Nixon, -that Marina N. Oswald locked Lee Harvey Oswald in the bathroom for the -entire day. - -At the end of this brief remark in relation to Mr. Nixon, I asked her -at that time had Lee been ill or been in the hospital while he was -in Russia. And, at this time, she told me yes, that he had, on two -occasions, been in the hospital in Russia. - -I asked her what was the nature of the illness. My best recollection of -that, sir, was that he was having difficulty with his sinus, and that -the cold was bothering him somewhat. And I do not recall anything more -specific than that in relation to the illness. - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question there? - -Did Marina say whether this was while they were in Minsk, or she didn't -indicate where he was at the time? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, she did not. - -Mr. DULLES. She did not? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you now stated and exhausted your recollection of -everything she said on that subject of his illness on that particular -occasion? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have. - -Mr. JENNER. And you did not pursue the matter any further than you have -indicated with her? - -Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I believe I attempted to, and with her limited -knowledge of the English language, we were encountering some -difficulties. And I told her perhaps at a later date, or something of -that nature, that we could discuss it more fully. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever pursue it with her on any subsequent occasion? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. - -Mr. JENNER. If I may, Mr. Chief Justice, I will return to that illness -feature at a later point. - -You have an entry in your diary under the date of January 13, 1964---- - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, in reference to Mr. Nixon? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Now, you have alluded to Mr. Nixon in testifying with respect to your -conversation on the subject of illness with Marina. - -Mr. Chief Justice, if I may, I will read the entry on that particular -date, and will wish to question the witness about it. - -"Sunday, January 13, 1964. Jim advised that Marina told him that -Lee wanted to"--and there are a series of five dashes, followed by -the letters, "NMR, also, but Marina locked Lee in the bathroom all -day. This was confirmed later this day by Marina. On the way to the -cemetery." - -Is that in your handwriting? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you please supply, if suppliable, what is indicated -by the three dashes preceding the letters "NMR" and identify what the -letters "NMR" refer to? - -Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir, correct you there. There are five dashes -there. And the word "shoot" was my intention to leave blank there. And -the initials "NMR" stands for Richard M. Nixon in reverse. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, that the five dashes were inserted there -as a substitute for the word "shoot"? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And the initials are those of Richard M. Nixon reversed? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please state fully when this matter or this -incident first came to your attention where and through and by whom? - -Mr. OSWALD. The first time I was aware of this incident was at Mr. Jim -H. Martin's home in Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. On what day? - -Mr. OSWALD. On Sunday, January 13, 1964. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the occasion for your being there? - -Mr. OSWALD. To visit with Marina, and to take her to the cemetery. - -Mr. JENNER. You entered the home? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was your wife, Mrs. Oswald, with you? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she was. - -Mr. JENNER. Your children? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they were. - -Mr. JENNER. You entered the home, and who was there? - -Mr. OSWALD. Mr. and Mrs. James H. Martin, I believe their children were -also present, and in the living room of their home there was two Secret -Service agents, or one Secret Service agent, and two Dallas police -officers. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you able to identify any of those four men? - -Do you recall any of them at the moment? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, that one of the Secret Service agents, if -he was either the only one there, or two of them were there, the one -that I do recall, Mr. Bob Jameson or Jimson, of the Dallas office--the -U.S. Secret Service office in Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, to what Richard M. Nixon did the initials "NMR" as you -have placed them in this note refer? - -Mr. OSWALD. To the past Vice President of the United States. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, proceed to tell us about how the circumstance arose, -your first conversation of it, your first notice of it. - -Mr. OSWALD. I was talking with Mr. Jim Martin about various other -matters. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir. Where were you in talking to Mr. Jim Martin? - -Mr. OSWALD. I was in the den of his home, sitting on a sofa. - -Mr. JENNER. And who was present? - -Mr. OSWALD. Jim Martin and I were sitting on the sofa, and I believe my -wife and his wife were at the end of the den in the kitchen part of it, -standing by the sink. - -Mr. JENNER. What is the distance between yourselves sitting on the sofa -and the others? - -Mr. OSWALD. I would say approximately 12 or 15 feet, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And was there a doorway, was it open? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it is an open room. - -Mr. JENNER. So you were all in the same room--one section of it you -describe as a den? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And the other section consists of what? - -Mr. OSWALD. The kitchen, the sink, refrigerator, a washing machine, -built-in oven and range. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Proceed. - -Mr. OSWALD. We discussed other matters. I do not recall what they were. -Just talking to him about how Marina was doing and so forth, and any -other thing that we might be talking about in general, small talk. And -we finally--he finally brought up this question. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he say and how did he approach it? Reproduce it as -best you can, sir. - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe he moved very close to me. I was turned towards -him. He was to my left. I might say at this time that the women at the -sink would be on my far right, behind me generally. And he related to -me---- - -Mr. JENNER. What did he say? - -Mr. OSWALD. This incident, that Marina had told him that on a day still -not identified to me, that he, Lee Harvey Oswald, had the intention to -shoot Mr. Richard M. Nixon, and that Marina N. Oswald had locked Lee -in the bathroom for the entire day. And that was the text to my best -remembrance--that was everything that was said from him. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you now exhausted your recollection? - -Mr. OSWALD. Of Mr. Martin's conversation to me? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say how he had come about this information? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, other than he had a conversation with Marina N. Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. And he was relating to you a conversation he had had with -her? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say that she had reported this to him? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of him as to why this had not been -disclosed to you before? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ask any questions of him in that connection? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -I might add that my reaction at that time was that I was rather -speechless. I believe I just shook my head in utter disbelief to what I -was hearing. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Mr. Martin relate to you when Marina had told him this -story? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you question him with respect to that? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you make any effort to fix the time when the event in -question had taken place? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; in my own mind I did. - -Mr. JENNER. You didn't question Mr. Martin about it, however? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. DULLES. At this time, did you know of the rumors with regard to the -attack on General Walker or not? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. And I refer, again, to the entry on -January 13, 1964, and the statement that Jim advised that Marina told -him that Lee wanted to "blank NMR, also." And by that "also" I was -aware of the attempt on General Walker's life. - -Mr. JENNER. Was anything said during the course of your conversation -with Mr. Martin in the den with respect to the information you had that -an attempt had been made by your brother on the life of General Walker? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not at this conversation, it was not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever talk to Mr. Martin at any time subsequent to -this, with respect to this event? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--preceding this day of January 13, 1964, -approximately 3 or 4 weeks prior to that---- - -Mr. JENNER. This particular event, I mean--Mr. Martin's relating to -you that Marina had advised him that your brother wanted to shoot -Richard M. Nixon, the Vice President of the United States. Did you -have a further conversation with Mr. Martin at any time subsequent to -that--that is, after January 13, 1964? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. You have not up to this moment? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. - -Mr. JENNER. You did not at any time later that day? You had only this -one conversation with Mr. Martin, and none other? - -Mr. OSWALD. On this subject, yes, sir, that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. On this particular subject, you made no effort to question -him further about it? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have now exhausted your recollection as to all of -your conversation on this occasion with Mr. Martin? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have. - -Mr. JENNER. And you at no time ever pursued it further with him? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you report or relate this to the Secret Service or the -FBI or any other agency of the U.S. Government? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Pardon me just a minute, Mr. Jenner. May I ask a question? - -You have, have you not, furnished the FBI a copy of this diary that you -have kept since November 22d? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And likewise you furnished it to this Commission? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. When was your diary furnished to the Commission for the -first time? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yesterday morning. - -Mr. OSWALD. February 20, 1964. - -Mr. JENNER. Yesterday morning when you and your counsel tendered it to -me? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. But between the 13th of January 1964 and yesterday morning, -when you tendered the diary to me, you made no tender of any written -materials nor did you relate orally to any agent or agency of the U.S. -Government this particular incident? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had. - -Mr. JENNER. You had? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Please state to whom and when? - -Mr. OSWALD. This was two FBI agents on the night of--may I have a -calendar, please? - -On February 18, 1964, I turned over my notebook to two FBI agents at my -home in Denton, Tex., at which time they asked me about this particular -incident. I referred them to my diary, and turned over the diary, with -the advice of my counsel. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that incident related by you to them at your instance, -or did they come to you with specific reference to it? - -Mr. OSWALD. They did have a specific reference to it on the night of -February 18, 1964. - -Mr. JENNER. Who raised it--you or the agents? - -Mr. OSWALD. The agents did, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did they state to you as to how they had come to have that -information? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they did not. - -Mr. McKENZIE. For the sake of the record, Mr. Jenner, I would like to -state what I told the agents. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, returning to--when did you tell them, Mr. McKenzie? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, the best I recall it was either Monday--it -was Monday, February 17th. - -Mr. JENNER. Monday of this week? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, this past Monday. - -And I might add that I received the diary myself sometime around 5:15 -or 5 o'clock on Saturday, February 15th, and I read the diary Sunday -evening, February 16th, and gave the information to the FBI agents on -February 17th, at which time I suggested that if they would like to -talk to Robert about it they could be free to do so. - -Mr. OSWALD. May I say something here, Bill? - -Mr. McKenzie did not know the exact meaning of this statement on -January 13, 1964. He asked me in his office on Monday afternoon, -February 17, 1964, to fill in the blanks, and to give the man's name to -the initials and what it meant, at which time I did. - -Mr. JENNER. But from the 13th of January 1964 to Saturday February 15, -1964, you had not drawn this matter to the attention of any agency -of the United States or any agent of the United States, or any other -person, is that correct? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that is not correct. I did not speak to any agent -of the U.S. Government. - -My wife read my diary, and she asked me what that entry was. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you prepare this diary? - -Mr. OSWALD. I prepared it on the dates noted in the diary. In this -particular instance, Sunday, January 13, 1964. - -Mr. JENNER. That particular entry, I take it, then, from your -testimony, was made contemporaneously with the event itself--that is, -on January 13, 1964? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. This news from Mr. Martin startled and upset you, did it -not? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did. - -Mr. JENNER. You mentioned that you had gone to the Martin home, one of -the purposes being to take Marina to the cemetery. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you do so? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. As soon as you were in her presence in the automobile, or -while you were driving there, did you raise this subject with her? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. You made no mention of what Mr. Martin had said to you? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever speak to Marina about it? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she raised the question to me, or told me of the -incident. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Was it on your way to the cemetery, while you were there, or returning -from the cemetery? - -Mr. OSWALD. On the way to the cemetery, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Please try to reconstruct the circumstances, and state as -clearly as you can how she raised the subject with you, and what she -said--first stating, however, who was in the automobile as you were -driving to the cemetery. - -Mr. OSWALD. It was Marina N. Oswald and myself, only. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Now, try to--give us the scene just as it occurred--how she brought it -out. - -Mr. OSWALD. We had been talking about the children, her children and -my children, family affairs, and so forth, attempting to carry on a -reasonable facsimile of a complete conversation within her limited -knowledge of English. And at a pause in this conversation, she started -relating to me this incident. - -Mr. JENNER. Please, Mr. Oswald--when you say she started relating this -incident, it doesn't help us any, it is not evidentiary. How did she do -it? What did she say, as best you are able to recall? How did she bring -it up? - -Mr. McKENZIE. In her own words, Robert, try to reconstruct exactly what -was said to you from the time you left Jim Martin's house until you -went--in Dallas, Tex., until you arrived in Fort Worth, Tex., at the -cemetery. - -Mr. OSWALD. On this subject, to the best of my knowledge, Marina said -to me, "Robert, Lee also wanted to shoot Mr. Nixon." And, at that time, -I believe I gave her the statement that "Yes, Jim told me about this -when we were sitting in the den that afternoon." - -Mr. JENNER. You say you gave her the statement--you mean that is what -you said to her? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -And she made her statement, referring to this incident of Mr. Nixon. - -And then she related---- - -Mr. JENNER. What did she say? - -Mr. OSWALD. I might say this, sir. In practically the same words -that Mr. Martin had told me, because he had reportedly received the -conversation from Marina, within her limited English--it rang a bell to -the extent that the words were close to being the same to the way Mr. -Martin had related it to me. - -It was a very brief statement on her behalf that Lee was going to shoot -Mr. Richard M. Nixon, and that she, Marina N. Oswald, locked Lee in the -bathroom all day. - -I did ask her was he very angry. Her reply was at first he certainly -was, or was, but later---- - -Mr. JENNER. When you say at first, you mean her first response to your -question was, "He certainly was." - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; or that he was. I don't believe she knows the -word "certainly." That he was angry, and that he calmed down during the -period that he was locked in the bathroom. - -And I asked her at the end of that statement, "Did he beat you or hurt -you?" - -She said, "No, he did not spank me." - -That is, to the best of my recollection, the entire conversation on the -incident of Mr. Richard M. Nixon. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire--you have now exhausted your recollection? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of her as to when this incident took place? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she volunteer it? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of Mr. Martin as to when the incident took -place? - -Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall that I did, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you make any inquiry as to where they were residing at -the time the incident was alleged to have taken place, or might have -taken place? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you assume any particular residence? - -Mr. OSWALD. I assumed that this took place in one of two apartments -that they lived in in Dallas, Tex. The addresses I am not familiar -with. They are the only two houses or apartments that I did see for -myself from the outside on the night of Thanksgiving, 1963, whatever -the date was, at which time we had dinner at the Martin's home for the -first time that Mrs. Martin had met Marina N. Oswald. - -And, at the conclusion of the dinner, the Secret Service agents, with -us, wanted Marina to point out to them the two apartments that they had -lived in in Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. And you accompanied them, did you? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I was in the car. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you thereafter pursue this occurrence, or alleged -occurrence, and obtain any additional information about it, with -anybody--the Secret Service, the FBI, Mr. Thorne, Mr. Martin, -Marina--anybody at all? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of Marina as to how she locked him in the -bathroom? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did it occur to you that it might be quite difficult for a -98-pound woman to lock your brother in a bathroom? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it has occurred to me exactly how this was -possible, to the extent that a bathroom usually has a lock on the -inside and not on the outside. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, if he didn't want to be locked in the bathroom, -she would have quite a difficulty--she could not force him into the -bathroom. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, that is a question for rank speculation. - -Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that, sir. I am trying to jog his recollection. - -Mr. McKENZIE. May I ask him a question at this time to maybe perhaps -assist you? - -The CHAIRMAN. You may ask, yes. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Robert, has Marina told you at anytime or do you now know -where they were residing when this occurrence happened? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she has not. And I am not aware from any source -where this event took place. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Were you ever in their apartments in Dallas, Tex., at -anytime? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Prior to going to--with the Secret Service and Marina on -Thanksgiving evening, was that the first time that you had ever seen -the apartments where they lived? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. I think we will take a break now. - -I must be going to my conference. So we will recess for just a moment. - -(Brief recess.) - -Mr. DULLES. The Commission will come to order. - -Mr. Jenner, if you will proceed. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you, sir. - -Mr. Oswald, we have some data that indicates or confirms the fact that -Mr. Nixon was invited to Dallas in April of 1963, by the Southeast -Dallas Chamber of Commerce to receive the Good American Award, but -that at the last minute it was necessary for him to cancel his -attendance--he was unable to attend, and did not come to Dallas on that -occasion. There was some publicity in connection with the giving of the -award prior to the event. But I take it from your testimony that at -least you did not pursue with Marina or with Mr. Martin their fixing -the time of the event in which Marina, according to the information -given you, locked your brother Lee in the bathroom to prevent him from -any violence on Mr. Nixon. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may, with Mr. Dulles' approval, -interrupt you one more time for another statement. - -I recall when Mr. Nixon was coming to Dallas at the invitation of Mr. -Carlson and others to receive this award. - -However, Mr. Nixon did come to Dallas some time within 6 weeks prior to -November 22, 1963. The exact date I cannot fix, because I don't recall -the exact date. - -But it is my best recollection that he was there in that period of time. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. McKenzie, that may well be so. - -Our information indicates to the contrary--that he was in Dallas on the -21st of November 1963. - -Mr. McKENZIE. That is what I say, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You said several weeks prior. - -Mr. McKENZIE. I said some time within 6 weeks prior to November 22d. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, our information is that he was in Dallas on the 21st -of November 1963, and not prior to that time. - -But we will---- - -Mr. DULLES. I think there is a misunderstanding there. You are -technically correct. It was the day before. - -Mr. McKENZIE. I couldn't remember the exact date, Mr. Dulles, and I -wasn't going to be tied down to any exact date. - -Mr. DULLES. You are technically correct. - -Mr. McKENZIE. November 21 was before November 22. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, the inference of the 6 weeks---- - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, the reason I say 6 weeks--as I explained to -Mr. Dulles, I don't know exactly when it was, but I know it was prior -to November 22d, Dick Nixon was in Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, Mr. Chairman, we will obtain that information and -make it part of the record. - -Now, Mr. Oswald, in view of what you have related with regard to this -particular event, I ask you this question: Would you please state why -you did not report this circumstance to any agency or agent of the U.S. -Government up to the time that you gave your diary to Mr. McKenzie and -he turned it over to the FBI? - -Mr. OSWALD. An assumption on my part at the time this was told to me -was that some Federal agents were aware of this. Nobody told me that -they were aware of it. I repeat, again, it was an assumption on my -part that somebody was perhaps aware of this, as they were, before I -was--aware of the alleged shot at General Walker of the same year. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Did you discuss this event with Mrs. Oswald, that is, your wife, Vada? - -Mr. OSWALD. Briefly I did, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, when did you do that? - -Mr. OSWALD. Some time around the latter part of January 1964, at which -time---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. That is several weeks after you made this entry -in your diary, and after the event occurred? - -Mr. OSWALD. Two or three weeks after I made this entry in my diary -January 13, yes, sir, that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. What were the circumstances that led you to discuss the -matter with her? - -Mr. OSWALD. My wife had read my diary, and she had come to this entry -on January 13, 1964, and she asked me to fill in the blanks and state -who it was, at which time I did. - -Mr. DULLES. Did I understand you to say earlier that your wife also -prepared a diary? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, she did not. She had read my diary, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Until you retained Mr. McKenzie, had you retained counsel? - -Mr. OSWALD. I had consulted counsel. - -Mr. JENNER. And what counsel? - -Mr. OSWALD. Mr. Weldon Knight, of Denton, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you exhibited to Mr. Knight the diary we have been -discussing? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was not aware of the diary we are discussing. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it from your testimony you did not discuss this -particular event with Mr. Knight. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever exhibit your diary to Mr. Thorne? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss the existence of the diary with Mr. -Thorne? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Prior to the time you delivered the diary to Mr. McKenzie, -had you disclosed to anybody other than Mrs. Oswald, your wife Vada, -the existence of the diary? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. McKENZIE. To whom? - -Mr. OSWALD. Mrs. Marina Oswald, approximately the first week of -February 1964, or January 1964--I advised her that I---- - -Mr. McKENZIE. You say approximately the first week of January or -February. You mean approximately the first week of February or the last -week of January? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--thank you--that I was writing down various -happenings that had occurred since November 22, 1964. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were in the process of preparing a memorandum, -really, rather than a diary, of past events? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Did you do any more than just tell her that you were preparing such a -statement or memorandum? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. You did not have occasion, then, at that time to discuss -further with her the Richard M. Nixon matter? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Since we have referred to this document, Mr. Chairman, -could I pursue it, at least as to how it came into existence? - -Mr. DULLES. Do you propose to introduce it in evidence? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, I do. - -I propose now to qualify the diary which you so kindly produced -yesterday, Mr. McKenzie. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Certainly. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, yesterday morning your counsel, Mr. McKenzie, -delivered to me as an agent of the Commission a ringed notebook, which -you have before you, do you not? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And is that notebook still intact as it was when you -delivered it to me yesterday? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. Does any part of that notebook contain any entries relating -to anything involving your brother? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you note the particular pages and put a paper clip on -them, please? - -Would you read the first paragraph of the first page which has been -clipped? - -Mr. OSWALD. "Dated December 6, 1963, for the history of the past 2 -weeks as seen through my eyes, and heard with my ears, and felt with -my body, I write for future reference for myself and for the future -members of the family." - -Mr. JENNER. Would you read the last sentence of the last page you have -clipped? - -Mr. OSWALD. "Marina said she was shocked when the FBI told her this -story." - -Mr. JENNER. May I approach the witness, Mr. Chairman? - -Mr. DULLES. Please. - -What was "this story"? - -Mr. JENNER. May we consider that a question to the witness, please? - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. - -Mr. OSWALD. If I may read the entire entry dated January 19, 1964. - -Mr. JENNER. Is this entry in your handwriting? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it made contemporaneously with the event recorded? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was. - -Mr. JENNER. This event took place on Sunday, January 19, 1964? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you made an entry contemporaneously or shortly -thereafter? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. For what purpose? - -Mr. OSWALD. For the purpose of writing down a reference for myself and -for my family on all events that I could learn about in relation to -Lee's life. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, before the paragraph is read, if I may--is -there another entry in your handwriting on that page? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there is. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it the only other entry on that page? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it the entry of January--Sunday, January 13, 1964, -relative to Mr. Nixon about which you have already testified? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And which you have read in full into the record? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you are going to read for the purpose of the record -the balance of that page, are you not? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. OSWALD. "Sunday, January 19, 1964. Marina and the Martins had gone -to Kathy Ford's house in Richardson, when we arrived at the Martin's -house around 2 p.m. They returned approximately about 4:45 p.m. On the -way to the grocery, Jim said the FBI had asked Marina during the week -if she knew"---- - -Mr. JENNER. Is there a blank there? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I had omitted a word. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the word? - -Mr. OSWALD. "that Lee". - -Mr. JENNER. Was it an inadvertent omission? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, it was. - -Mr. JENNER. And the omission was what word? - -Mr. OSWALD. "If she knew Lee had"---- - -Mr. JENNER. You now have a specific recollection you intended to write -the word "Lee"? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -"If she knew Lee had tried to commit suicide while in Russia prior to -their marriage. She did not, and it was the first I knew about it. -Marina later confirmed this, and said that she had asked Lee two or -three times what was the cut on his wrist, pointing to the cut on his -left wrist. Lee would become very mad and tell her nothing. The FBI -read this in Marina's book." - -Mr. McKENZIE. "Read this in Marina's book." You misread there. "The FBI -read this in Lee's book." - -Mr. JENNER. That is correct? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -"Understand he had a date with another girl around 8 p.m. (This is in -Moscow.)" - -Mr. JENNER. Is that in parentheses? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. The words "this is in Moscow" are in parentheses? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -"And right before she was due to arrive, he cut his wrist. Marina said -she was 'shocked' when the FBI told her this story." - -Mr. JENNER. I will not question the witness further about that -entry--unless you wish to pursue it at the moment. - -Mr. DULLES. No, follow your own order. - -There is one question I would ask that relates to the past. That is -what you testified to just a moment before. This is with regard to -locking in the bathroom for a day. - -Did Marina indicate that that was for the purpose of keeping Lee away -from possibly Nixon, if he was to be there that day, or was it to cool -him down? Did you get any impression as to what the purpose was of the -locking in the bathroom? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I most certainly did. Her intentions as related -to me was to keep him from shooting at Mr. Nixon. - -Mr. JENNER. On that particular day, or on some future occasion? - -Mr. OSWALD. I would say on the particular day--pardon me. I -misunderstood the question. - -Mr. McKENZIE. I think he misunderstood the question. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Was it your impression that Mr. Nixon was to be in Dallas on that -particular day, and that that is the day that Marina locked him in the -bathroom? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was she locking him in the bathroom to cool him off so he -would not attempt it when Mr. Nixon might be in town some later date? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, it was her intention, or my impression of her -intentions, that she locked him in the bathroom on that date, to keep -him on that date from shooting at Mr. Richard M. Nixon. - -Mr. JENNER. So your impression was this was an imminent event? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Or that she thought it was an imminent event? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, that, thank you. - -Mr. DULLES. That is all I have now. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it from your testimony that this ringed notebook, -and in part a diary, is a record first of past events--that you -prepared it subsequently to the events recorded therein. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, start from the beginning, that is the first page, the -first paragraph of which you have read, in order to identify it. I -notice a date--December 6, 1963. Do you find it, sir? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that the date on which you prepared at least the first -page or started this memorandum? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please take that memorandum or notebook and -identify each page that you wrote at the first sitting--that is, what -you first recorded in the book on the first occasion you wrote in it. - -Mr. OSWALD. On the eighth page, approximately midway down, in the -left-hand margin I have a date of 12-7. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Now, I take it, therefore, that your first entries were made--that -you made, covered the pages commencing with the page dated at the top -December 6, 1963, and proceeding consecutively to the eighth page, and -in the center of that page approximately, at the margin, there appears -the figures 12-7. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. You wrote all the intervening material at one sitting? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And the 12-7 refers, I take it, to December 7, 1963? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And that is the day following your having made the first -entries? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Which is December 6, 1963. - -Are all the pages that intervene in your handwriting? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they are. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may, and for the purpose of the -record, to help speed up the proceedings, I will state on behalf of -Mr. Oswald that all the pages of the diary which you have there in -front of you, and which should be and will be marked an exhibit to -the Commission's record, are in Mr. Oswald's handwriting, they were -written simultaneously on the date as shown in the diary, and were his -recollections of the event as it occurred on that date. Is that correct -Robert? - -Mr. JENNER. I appreciate your suggestion, Mr. McKenzie, but there are -some breaks that I would like to identify. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Pardon me, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I have marked the document now as Commission Exhibit 323. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 323 for -identification.) - -Mr. DULLES. And you wish to ask that it be admitted in evidence? - -Mr. JENNER. If I may defer that for a moment. - -Are all of the pages of the diary which you have separated and clipped -together at my request in your handwriting? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they are. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, proceeding from the eighth page, which contains the -date entry December 7, 1963, would you please identify what you wrote -on the particular occasion--that is, December 7, 1963? - -I take it the balance of that page? - -Mr. OSWALD. The balance of that page, the following entire page, and -the first part of the next page. - -Mr. JENNER. Down to what? - -Mr. OSWALD. "for me to come to his office" and a date---- - -Mr. JENNER. Is the date 12-11-63? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. DULLES. Are these pages numbered? - -Mr. JENNER. They are not. - -Mr. McKENZIE. I think we should have them numbered at this time, if the -Commission would so desire, sir. We can number them--Robert can number -them at the bottom of the page consecutively all the way through, and -likewise number the exhibit. - -Mr. JENNER. I would like to number the photostat that we have rather -than to place any markings on the original. - -Mr. McKENZIE. That is fine. - -Mr. JENNER. Would it help you, Mr. Chairman, if I examined from the -seat beside you, so you can see the exhibit? - -The occasion next after December 7, 1963, when you made an entry in -your notebook, I take it, was on December 11, 1963. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And would you please indicate commencing with that entry in -the upper portion of the page how much--what portions of the notebook -you wrote on that occasion? - -Mr. OSWALD. On the page referred to, from the date of 12-11-63, on the -11th page following that, I have an asterisk in the left-hand column. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you read the first line of that page? - -Mr. OSWALD. "Complete with Marina." - -Mr. JENNER. And the last line? - -Mr. OSWALD. "around 11 a.m., the first great shock of the day"---- - -Mr. JENNER. Just the last line. - -Mr. OSWALD. "also they were having a hard time locating". - -Mr. JENNER. Now, there is an asterisk in the left-hand margin? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Approximately the center of the page? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I gather from your testimony that the entry you made -then on 11th of December 1963, commenced at the point that you -have that date in the margin, and runs to, throughout the pages -consecutively--down to the asterisk of the page you have now identified. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you make the entry that is opposite the asterisk, -and that follows the asterisk? - -Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall the exact date, sir. I do recall stopping -at that period and making the balance of the entries at a later date -after December 11, 1963, and prior to January 13, 1964. - -Mr. DULLES. Were they all made at one time? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. The post asterisk entries? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. From the asterisk until the completion of the -diary to the date of January 13, 1964, was made at one time. - -Mr. JENNER. And it recorded past events. It was not made -contemporaneously with the events recorded? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. So that the first entries in this notebook that are diary -entries in the sense that they are made contemporaneously with the -event, to immediately record the event, are those appearing on the last -page, consisting of two entries, one dated Sunday, January 13, 1964, -and one dated Sunday, January 19, 1964? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -I have noted an error in those dates to the extent that there is only 6 -days in between those two Sundays. One date is wrong. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean either January 13, 1964, is incorrect or Sunday, -January 19, 1964, is incorrect? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. It was an error on my part. And if I may refer to -a calendar, I will correct the dates. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that a '63 calendar you have there? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; this is a '64. - -I would correct the first date as appeared in my diary of Sunday, -January 13, 1964, to be corrected to January 12, 1964, and the second -date of January would be correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. So wherever in your testimony this morning you have -referred to the Sunday, January 13 date, that is to be corrected to -January 12, 1964? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of further identification of the exhibit, -and in the context of Mr. McKenzie's and my agreement to substitute a -photostatic copy for the original. I will undertake to number the pages -of the exhibit on the photostatic copy. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Would you like Robert to do that? - -Mr. JENNER. Well, I would like to have him follow, so that the numbers -on the photostat correspond with the pages consecutively in the -original. - -As I number the pages, Mr. Oswald, would you follow me, so that the -page numbers I place on the exhibit are correct in that they are in -sequence with the original? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. The first page I am marking No. 1. The next page, No. 2. -The next, No. 3. - -Would you observe each time that the photostat is a photostat of the -original? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am observing it. - -Mr. JENNER. Page 4 is next. - -Five is next. Six is next. Seven is next. Eight is next. Nine is -next. Ten is next. Eleven is next. Twelve is next. Thirteen is next. -Fourteen. Fifteen. Sixteen. Seventeen. Eighteen. Nineteen. Twenty. Now, -page 20 is the reverse side of the page numbered on its face 19, is it -not? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that is not correct. It is an insertion to the -page that has not been numbered yet, page 21. - -Mr. JENNER. But isn't it a fact that the entry on the page now numbered -20 is on the reverse side of the page numbered on its face 19? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am sorry. You are correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. But the point you are making is that the entry on page now -numbered 20 relates to page 21? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -We will now mark page 21. Twenty-two. - -Mr. DULLES. What are you marking that insert as far as our copy is -concerned? - -Mr. JENNER. As page 20. - -Mr. DULLES. Wouldn't it be better to make it 20-A? - -Mr. JENNER. I thought from the record that I had made clear that page -number 20 was the reverse side of page numbered on its face 19. - -Mr. DULLES. All right. Just so you are clear. - -Mr. JENNER. Have we covered page 22? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Twenty-three. Twenty-four. Twenty-five. Twenty-six. -Twenty-seven. - -As I proceeded in numbering the photostat, you placed, did you not, in -your own handwriting--followed me and placed the same page numbers in -your own handwriting on the pages in question as you wrote the numbers -on them--the same pages--on the photostat? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. DULLES. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. DULLES. Back on the record. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, do the entries that you have made in the -notebook on pages 1 through 27 now identified represent your -recollection of the events recorded at the time that you recorded the -events? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they do. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you had an opportunity to review those entries since -they were made? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you reread any portions of any of these entries, other -than or in addition to those you read to the Commission this morning? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. - -Mr. DULLES. Mr. Chairman, I now offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit -No. 323 the pages of the notebook which have been identified by the -witness, and which have been numbered 1 through 27. - -Mr. DULLES. Exhibit No. 323 will be accepted. - -(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission -Exhibit No. 323 was received in evidence.) - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I would like to direct your attention to page 5 of -your notebook. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. At that point you were recording the course of events on -what day? - -Mr. OSWALD. Friday, November 22, 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. To orient you and the Commission, the entry to which I -refer, that is the paragraph, reads as follows. Follow me, please. - -"Mother and I talked briefly and after about 30 minutes we were taken -across the hall to where Marina and the two children were. (This was -the first I knew of the new baby.) A Mrs. Paine was also present. We -talked a little and shortly Mr. Paine--who the police had been talking -to, came out of the office and Mrs. Paine introduced us. I did not like -the appearance of Mr. Paine, nothing really to put my finger on, but I -just had a feeling. - -"I still do not know why or how"--what is that next word? - -Mr. OSWALD. "but". - -Mr. JENNER. "But Mr. and Mrs. Paine are somehow involved in this -affair. Shortly thereafter Mother, Marina, and the children and the -Paines left to go to the Paines' house in Irving, and I advised them I -would stay there and see them tomorrow." - -When you recorded "I would stay there" you mean remain in Dallas? What -did you mean? - -Mr. OSWALD. My full meaning there, sir, was that I would remain at the -Dallas police station, and take a hotel room in Dallas, and spend the -night. - -Mr. JENNER. Now---- - -Mr. DULLES. May I ask just one question there for clarity? It refers to -an office. Is that the office of the Dallas police? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. DULLES. The Dallas police station? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it from this entry you had not heretofore ever met -either Mr. or Mrs. Paine? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And would you elaborate upon, please, your statement -recorded on December 6, 1963, that you did not like the appearance -of Mr. Paine "nothing really to put my finger on, but I just had a -feeling. I still do not know why or how, but Mr. and Mrs. Paine are -somehow involved in this affair." - -Mr. OSWALD. Well, I was introduced to Mr. Paine at the Dallas police -office on the night of November 22, 1963. His wife introduced us. His -handshake was very weak and what I might term a live fish handshake. - -Mr. JENNER. Live or dead? - -Mr. OSWALD. And his general appearance, his face, and most particularly -his eyes to me had what I would term a distant look to them, and that -he wasn't really looking at you when he was. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if you will, please, would you ask the -witness whether he meant a live fish or a cold dead fish. - -Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I believe I mean a live fish. A cold, dead fish would -be stiff. - -Mr. McKENZIE. All right. - -Mr. JENNER. We are seeking to obtain the basis upon which you made this -entry. - -Mr. OSWALD. It was Mr. Paine's general appearance and the manner in -which he held himself, and by this I mean the way he stood and the way -he looked at you, and you had that feeling, as I stated before, that he -was not really looking at you. - -Mr. DULLES. You say there that Mrs. Paine introduced Mr. Paine to you. -When had you previously made the acquaintance of Mrs. Paine--just -before this? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. DULLES. On that same day? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And you record that in your memorandum, do you not, on a -previous page? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. The fact of the introduction? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do so. - -Mr. JENNER. I think the Commission would be interested further in -explaining your remark "I still do not know why or how, but Mr. and -Mrs. Paine are somehow involved in this affair." What did you mean by -that? That is on page 6. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I just wanted to verify that this was still under -my date, original entry of December 6, 1963. - -At the time I wrote the statement, "I still do not know why or how, but -Mr. and Mrs. Paine are somehow involved in this affair." I meant by -this statement that I had gathered that after our meeting of November -22, 1963, at the Dallas police station, to the date of December 6, -1963, that Mr. Paine and Mrs. Paine were separated, and that I had -read approximately at this time--and I am not sure that I had read -this particular thing in the newspaper prior to December 6, 1963--but -I feel like I did--that in a Dallas paper it referred to an incident -at a Grand Prairie Rifle Range where some people had identified Lee -as being at this rifle range, and that on one occasion a man, and the -description was given in the newspaper, had handed Lee Harvey Oswald a -rifle over this fence where he was standing inside the rifle range. As -I read this description in the newspaper, I reached the conclusion from -that description that it was Mr. Paine. - -Mr. JENNER. Any other basis that you now recall upon which you -predicated the statement that, "Somehow Mr. and Mrs. Paine are involved -in this affair." - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; if the newspaper I read at that particular time -is dated after December 6, 1963, the statement that I just read a few -minutes ago, "I still do not know why or how, but Mr. and Mrs. Paine -are somehow involved in this affair"--I made that statement then based -on my meeting Mr. and Mrs. Paine at the Dallas police station on Friday -night, November 22, 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please describe Mr. Paine as he appeared -on that particular occasion--first, his physical appearance, and then -follow with how he was dressed. Give his height, weight, color of eyes -and hair, as you recall them. - -Mr. OSWALD. I recall Mr. Paine to be approximately 6 feet in height. I -do not recall the color of his hair. He is of slender build. Perhaps -I would establish his weight around 160 or 165 pounds. His facial -appearance was quite drawn--and this is a conclusion on my part, -because I had not met him before--he appeared to be quite drawn in the -face. - -His eyes, I would say, would have to me a hollow look. - -Mr. JENNER. What color were his eyes? - -Mr. OSWALD. I do not know, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't presently recall? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. JENNER. You made no note of it at the time? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. What was his complexion--ruddy, pale? - -Mr. OSWALD. I would say his complexion would be ruddy complected. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he clean shaven? - -Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my recollection, he was, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. No mustache, no beard? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What else did you notice about his appearance? How did he -part his hair? Do you recall? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether he did part it? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. I believe this to be correct--that I -never did get any higher than looking at Mr. Paine's eyes, and I do not -believe I looked at his hair or above his eyes at any time. - -Mr. JENNER. How long were you with Mr. Paine on that occasion? - -Mr. OSWALD. Approximately five minutes. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you ever seen Mr. Paine subsequently thereto? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have. - -Mr. JENNER. On how many occasions? - -Mr. OSWALD. On one other occasion, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. When? - -Mr. OSWALD. This would be approximately a Sunday afternoon in the -middle of December 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. That would be approximately a week after you made this -entry? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. In the presence of Mr. Jim H. Martin, and Mr. -John Thorne. We traveled from Mr. Martin's home to the Paines' house -in Irving to pick up Marina's and Lee's clothes that were still there. - -Mr. JENNER. Still at the Paines' home? - -Mr. OSWALD. Still at the Paines' home. I saw Mr. and Mrs. Paine again -on that day--I mean at that time. That was my second and only time I -have ever seen them. Mr. and Mrs. Paine helped gather up the belongings -of Marina and the children and Lee's personal belongings that were -still there. - -Mr. JENNER. To make it clear, Mr. Oswald, did Mr. Paine accompany you -with Mr. Martin and Mr. Thorne to the Paine home, or did you meet Mr. -Paine when you arrived there? - -Mr. OSWALD. We met Mr. Paine and Mrs. Paine on our arrival at their -home in Irving, Texas. - -Mr. JENNER. How long were you there? - -Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 45 minutes to an hour. - -Mr. JENNER. How was he clothed on that occasion? - -Mr. OSWALD. In a sport shirt and a pair of slacks, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And how was he clothed on the occasion that you record here -on page 6? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe also at that time, sir, that he had a sport shirt -on and a pair of slacks, and perhaps a sport jacket or jacket of some -type. - -Mr. JENNER. Was his head covered on either occasion? - -Mr. OSWALD. No. sir, it was not. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you notice, if anything, as to whether he had -straight hair or a full head of hair on him? Was he bald? - -You have already said you don't recall the color of his hair, am I -correct on that? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -In referring to the second meeting of Mr. Paine and myself, in -reference to his hair, I would say his hair was practically a full set -of hair, dark and short. - -Mr. JENNER. When you say short, you mean cut short, or a crew cut? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, just cut short. - -Mr. JENNER. How do you describe your own head of hair, as to its cut? -Is it cut short? - -Mr. OSWALD. Presently, I would describe wearing mine at a medium -length, for myself. - -Mr. McKENZIE. How about Mr. Jenner's? - -Mr. OSWALD. I would describe his as being in medium length. - -Mr. JENNER. I think you are right. - -Mr. DULLES. May I ask one question there? - -Had you known prior to November 22d that Marina was living with Mrs. -Paine? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. DULLES. You had not known that before November 22d? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you know at the time you were introduced to Mr. Paine? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. And you had become advised in that respect by whom? - -Mr. OSWALD. By Mrs. Paine. - -Mr. JENNER. Are those the only two occasions you have had any contact -with Mr. Paine? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you describe her, please? - -Mr. OSWALD. A tall woman, approximately 110 pounds--and by tall I mean -approximately 5 foot 11, or 6 feet in height. - -Mr. JENNER. Weighing only 110 pounds? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, very slender. A slender face, also--not a full -face. - -Mr. JENNER. When you say also, are you now referring to Mr. Paine? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was referring to my statement that Mrs. Paine -was slender, and also that she was slender in the face. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Thank you. - -Mr. OSWALD. Long hair, I believe to be brown in color. - -Mr. JENNER. How did she do her hair, was it in braids? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I believe it was just hanging down long. - -Mr. JENNER. When you say long, how long? - -Mr. OSWALD. Shoulder height. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, would you accommodate us--not to do it now, -but at noontime, if you have the time, to read through, your diary -to the court reporter, because some of the writing I have difficulty -interpreting. The Commission would appreciate it if you would interpret -your own writing on the exhibit. - -Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. I understand that you want me to read the -entire diary, is that correct? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, to the court reporter--as part of the record, Mr. -Chairman. - -Mr. DULLES. You may proceed. - -Mr. JENNER. What kind of a student were you, Mr. Oswald? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe my average in school was--if I may, sir, ask -you--are you talking about my over-all average? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir, I seek only the over-all. - -Mr. OSWALD. I would say a C or C-plus, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with the scholarship in that respect of -your brother John? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not. I could, if you wish me to, make an -opinion on what I think it would be. - -Mr. JENNER. This opinion being based upon your attending school with -him, as you testified yesterday? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And discussions with him back and forth between the both of -you as to how you were getting along? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Common interest in your progress scholarshipwise? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What is your present recollection as to his scholarship? - -Mr. OSWALD. That would be a C-plus or a B. - -Mr. JENNER. A touch higher than yours? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have an opportunity during your lifetime to form a -like opinion as to the scholarship of your brother Lee? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have. - -Mr. JENNER. And what was his scholarship? - -Mr. OSWALD. I would say a C to a C-plus, in the same category that I -place myself. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald and Mr. McKenzie, Mr. Chairman, have furnished -us with the originals of a series of letters and postcards which Mr. -Oswald, the witness, received from his brother Lee Harvey Oswald. We -have prepared photostatic copies on a Xerox machine of each of those -letters, and each envelope relating to that letter. And in the case of -postcards the front and reverse side of postcards. - -We were further accommodated, by--yesterday afternoon following the -close of the session--by sitting down with Mr. Oswald and in his -presence comparing the photostatic copy of each document with the -original, the original being in the possession of Mr. Oswald. And I am -marking each of those documents with an exhibit number. - -Mr. DULLES. Could you give us, Mr. Jenner, the first and last dates, so -we have an idea of the period covered? - -I have a general idea, of course. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. Two of these items are not in exact sequence, but---- - -Mr. DULLES. Two have been introduced already, have they not? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, I think you are right, Mr. Dulles. - -Mr. JENNER. That is correct. A letter of November 8, 1959, introduced -in evidence yesterday. I don't recall what the second one was, but at -least---- - -Mr. DULLES. Were they marked at that time as exhibits? - -Mr. JENNER. That was marked as an exhibit. And Mr. Liebeler has it. - -The November 8 letter, Mr. Chairman, is marked Commission Exhibit No. -294, and it is in evidence. - -Mr. DULLES. There was only one letter, or were there two? - -Mr. JENNER. There was just one letter. I think, if you please, you have -reference to a telegram, which is Exhibit No. 293. - -Mr. DULLES. That is it--the telegram. - -Mr. JENNER. Being a telegram dated 14 June 1962. - -Mr. DULLES. And these other exhibits cover what period? - -Mr. JENNER. They commence--the first, Commission Exhibit No. 295, is -a letter of eight pages dated November 26, 1959, and concluding with -Exhibit No. 322, a letter of two pages dated March 16, 1963. - -Mr. DULLES. Were those all from Russia? - -Mr. JENNER. They were all from Russia, save the letter dated March 17, -1963, being Exhibit No. 322, a letter of two pages. All the others are -from Russia. - -Mr. DULLES. Where was that letter from--do you recall? - -Mr. JENNER. It is postmarked--the envelope "Lee H. Oswald, P.O. Box -2915, Dallas, Texas." - -And the cancellation stamp likewise says Dallas, Texas. - -The date is that which I have already recited. - -Mr. DULLES. That was after Lee Harvey's return from the Soviet Union? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, he returned in June of 1962. - -Mr. DULLES. And that letter is dated what? - -Mr. JENNER. March 17, 1963. - -Would you follow me, Mr. Oswald? In each instance, when we compared -the letters and the envelopes, it is a fact, is it not, Mr. Oswald, -that the letter in question was contained in the envelope of which we -have a photostatic copy--and was received by you intact? That is, the -envelope was sealed, and the letter content was in the envelope, that -you personally opened the envelope and removed the letter content? That -in each instance, the letter content is in the handwriting of your -brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, entirely, with the exception of Commission -Exhibit 299, which is a letter of three pages dated May 31, 1961, upon -the last page of which there is a paragraph in the handwriting of -Marina Oswald, written in the Russian language? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I take that to be Mrs. Marina Oswald's writing at -that time. - -Mr. JENNER. And there appears on that page following that paragraph -written in Russian what purports to be an English interpretation of it? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Furthermore, that in each instance the envelope and the -letter content is--are in the same condition now as they were when you -received them? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Except for opening. - -Mr. JENNER. Except for the opening of the envelope which was necessary -for you to do in order to remove the content. Is my statement correct? - -Mr. OSWALD. With this exception, sir. That a number of the letters were -not opened by me personally. By that, I mean my wife opened them when -she received the mail at the house. - -I have marked the chronological date on the front of them in the last -few days. - -Mr. JENNER. So that there appears on these exhibits in your handwriting -a date on the envelope and in some instances on the letter content? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Which you wrote thereon, and which was not on either the -envelope or the letter at the time it was received by you? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Those exhibit numbers--excuse me. There are three -postcards--Commission Exhibit No. 310, dated December 11, 1961, which -is a Christmas card, Commission Exhibit 319, which is a postcard dated -October 10, 1962, and Commission Exhibit 321, a postcard dated April -10, 1962. Each of those was received by you in due course, Mr. Oswald, -as you related to me yesterday. - -I want you to confirm this. And is in the handwriting of your brother, -Lee Harvey Oswald. - -And except for notations of dates which appear thereon or may appear -thereon in your handwriting, they are in the same condition now as -when you received them? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I wish you would--I want to exhibit to you the -postcard dated April 10, 1962, which is Commission Exhibit No. 321. - -Mr. DULLES. As I understand it, these letters have not yet been -formally introduced in evidence. - -Mr. JENNER. They have not, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Very well. - -I might add, Mr. McKenzie, that, of course, one does not know whether -those letters were opened by the authorities in the Soviet Union before -being forwarded. I think that ought to be on the record. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit No. 321 I now hand you, Mr. Oswald. -There is a date appearing thereon which reads, according to my -interpretation 10--and then I cannot quite decipher it. - -Would you look at the original, please? - -Mr. DULLES. The European system of marking is different from the -American system. - -Mr. JENNER. That is what I seek to bring out, sir. - -Do you now have the original before you? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you read the figures to which I point? The first is -10? - -Mr. OSWALD. 10/4/62. - -Mr. JENNER. Indicating what date? - -Mr. OSWALD. April 10, 1962, in accordance with the European system of -dating. - -Mr. JENNER. Of putting the day first, the month second, and the year -last? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you recall whether these letters were opened by cutting -or opened by unsealing? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe without exception, sir, looking at the originals, -that they were opened by unsealing, rather than cutting. - -Mr. DULLES. I was asking because it is sometimes possible, by modern -methods, to determine whether a letter has been opened and resealed, -and if the letter is cut, that can be done. - -If the letter has been torn open where the seal is, you cannot do -anything with it. You cannot always do this, but there are certain -techniques. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chairman, did you have reference to when Robert -opened the letters? - -Mr. DULLES. Well, what I had reference to is to whether if the letters -were cut and not resealed, then there is a certain possibility of -ascertaining whether the letter has been previously opened by a censor, -and then resealed. I was just getting at that. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Dulles is interested, I see, in whether the letters had -been censored in Russia before they arrived in the United States. - -Mr. DULLES. That was my point. - -Mr. JENNER. May I inquire of the witness on that subject further? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Let me state this for the record. When Robert Oswald or -his wife opened the letters, as you can plainly see from the letters -here in front of you, they were either opened by letter opener--a knife -or a letter opener, or just torn open. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, it is entirely possible and might even be -probable that the Commission would be interested in examining the -originals on this subject--that is, to determine through experts as to -whether the envelopes had been opened and censored, and the contents -censored, before being resealed, if they had been so opened, and -dispatched to the United States. And I take it that your inquiry was -directed towards that. - -Mr. DULLES. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. May I inquire of Mr. McKenzie, in the light of that fact, -as to whether these originals of these letters would be available to us -so that we may have expert examination of them for that purpose? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir; I will make them available at any time that the -Commission so desires. - -And I would like further to say, Mr. Chairman, that it is my opinion, -based on a reading of these letters--and I feel that Robert Oswald -concurs in my opinion here--that many of the letters were censored, -because the letters actually have reference to the censor in many -instances. And I speak of that--the censor in the Soviet Union. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. I have not yet read the letters. - -Mr. JENNER. The photostats that we have of the letters will reveal -that to which Mr. McKenzie is now referring. We took the face of each -envelope and in most instances of the reverse side of the envelope. And -in each instance the front and reverse side of each postcard. - -Mr. DULLES. And in each case I believe we will have in our records, -will we not, the date when it was mailed and the date of receipt? - -Mr. JENNER. To the extent that is revealed by the face and reverse side -of the envelope; yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Because if you have a case where a letter takes four or -five days, longer than another letter, that may mean nothing, or it may -mean quite a good deal. - -Mr. McKENZIE. In some instances, Mr. Chairman, it took five days to -receive a letter from the Soviet Union to Fort Worth, Texas. - -Mr. DULLES. That is par for the course, I guess. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. - -But I might also add sometimes it takes five days for a letter to get -from downtown Dallas to the suburbs in Dallas, Texas. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr.---- - -Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, sir, if I may, I would like to say something to -my attorney. - -Mr. JENNER. Surely. - -Mr. DULLES. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. DULLES. Back on the record. - -Proceed, Mr. Jenner. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you turn to the letter of September 10, 1961, please? -That is Commission Exhibit 305. - -Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have it? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. In addition--did anything accompany that letter in the way -of photographs? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, there was. - -Mr. JENNER. Is a reference made to those photographs in the letter? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there is. - -Mr. JENNER. And do you still have the photographs? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have them there before you? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. And how many are there, and what do they depict? - -Mr. OSWALD. There is a total of three photographs depicting purportedly -pictures in Minsk, Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there any handwriting on the reverse side of any of -these exhibits? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; on two of the three photographs there is. - -Mr. JENNER. I will mark this Exhibit as Commission Exhibit 304, the -next as 304-A and the next as 304-B. - -(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits 304 and -304-A and 304-B for identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. The witness now has before him a photograph marked -Commission Exhibit 304, on the reverse side of which appears some -handwriting. - -Do you recognize that handwriting? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Whose is it? - -Mr. OSWALD. I recognize it to be Lee Harvey Oswald's. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you read it? - -Mr. OSWALD. "Trade Union Hall on the Main Street." - -Mr. JENNER. And on the opposite side on which this handwriting appears -is a picture of a public building? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. I turn your attention to the document marked Commission -Exhibit No. 304-A. On the reverse side of that does there appear some -handwriting? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Whose handwriting is it? - -Mr. OSWALD. I recognize that to be Lee Harvey Oswald's. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you read it, please? - -Mr. OSWALD. "A square in Minsk." - -Mr. JENNER. And on the opposite side is also depicted a public building? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Exhibit No. 304-B, does the reverse side of that exhibit -contain any handwriting? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, it does not. - -Mr. JENNER. The face of the exhibit, however, depicts a plaza with some -public buildings? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you replace those photographs, please, in the -envelope with the original? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, would you turn to the letter dated January 30, 1962, -being Commission Exhibit No. 314? - -Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Were there any contents accompanying this letter in -addition to the letter itself? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe it did contain, sir--since there is no reference -within the letter itself---- - -Mr. JENNER. It is your recollection? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is my recollection that it did contain two -photographs. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it not a fact, sir, that when you exhibited the original -of the letter, the original of the envelope, and removed the contents -yesterday afternoon in my presence, that the two photographs to which -you now refer were contained in the envelope? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Liebeler, would you give us those A and B numbers, -please? - -Mr. LIEBELER. 314-A and B. - -(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits 314-A and -314-B, for identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to Commission Exhibit 314-A, that -is a photograph, is it not? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there handwriting on the reverse side of that photograph? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there is. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize the handwriting? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Whose is it? - -Mr. OSWALD. Lee Harvey Oswald's. - -Mr. JENNER. What does it say? - -Mr. OSWALD. "April 30, 1961. Marina--Lee." - -Mr. JENNER. Now, turn to the face of the exhibit, do you recognize the -persons depicted in that photograph? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Who are they? - -Mr. OSWALD. Left to right, Lee Harvey Oswald and Marina N. Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. And is the exhibit in the same condition it was when you -removed the exhibit from the envelope upon receipt of the envelope, -except for the exhibit number? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you turn to the other exhibit, Commission Exhibit No. -314-B? - -And does the reverse side of that exhibit contain some handwriting? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize the handwriting? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Whose is it? - -Mr. OSWALD. Lee Harvey Oswald's. - -Mr. JENNER. What does it say? - -Mr. OSWALD. "Marina, wedding day, April 30, 1961." - -Mr. JENNER. Would you turn to the face of the exhibit. Do you recognize -the person depicted on it? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Who is it? - -Mr. OSWALD. Marina N. Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that exhibit in the same condition now as it was when -you received it and removed it from the envelope in which it was -contained, being the letter dated January 30, 1962? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence the series of letters -which I have identified, and which the witness has confirmed, and the -contents, being the now five photographs which have been identified, -as Commission Exhibits Nos. 295, being a letter of eight pages, dated -November 26, 1959; 296, a letter of one page--we don't have a more -accurate date than the summer of 1959; 297, a letter of one page, dated -December 17, 1959; 298, a letter of two pages, May 5, 1961; 299, a -letter of three pages, dated May 31, 1961. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Pardon me, Mr. Jenner, just a second. - -The letter that you have referred to as being dated December 17, 1959, -does not have a date on it. It's received December 17, 1959? - -Mr. JENNER. That is in the witness' handwriting. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes; in the witness' handwriting. - -Mr. JENNER. The letter itself is undated. - -Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. The words "received" and the figures December 17, 1959, are -written by you on the letter? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And is that in fact the date it was received here in -America by you? - -Mr. OSWALD. It was, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you for following me, Mr. McKenzie. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, Exhibit 299 is the letter which contains in -part the paragraph written in Russian which on its face purports to -have been a notation by Marina, which we have already identified. - -Exhibit 300 is a letter of two pages, dated June 26, 1961. - -Exhibit 301 is a letter of two pages dated July 14, 1961. - -Exhibit 302 is a letter of one page dated July 28, 1961. - -Exhibit 303 is a letter of two pages dated August 21, 1961. - -Exhibit 305 we have already identified. That is September 10, 1961, -the letter of three pages which contain the pictures of the public -buildings and plaza in Minsk, Russia. - -Exhibit 306 is a letter of two pages dated October 22, 1961. - -Exhibit 307 is a letter of three pages dated November 20, 1961. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Pardon me just a second, Mr. Jenner. Don't you have one -dated November 1, 1961? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, it is out of order. I will reach it in due course. I -am correct that there is a letter of three pages dated November 20, -1961? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 308 is a letter of two pages dated November 30, -1961. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 309 is a letter of two pages dated November 1, -1961. That is the one to which you have reference. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 310 is a Christmas card dated December 11, 1961. - -It is contained in an envelope, I believe. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir, it is. - -Mr. JENNER. Is my statement correct? - -Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 311 is a letter of two pages dated December 14, -1961. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 312 is a letter of one page dated December 20, 1961. - -Mr. McKENZIE. December 20, 1961? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Three pages? - -Mr. JENNER. One page. - -Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 313 is a letter of two pages dated January 5, 1962. - -Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. January 5, 1962. - -Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 314 is a letter of three pages which we have -identified, dated January 30, 1962, and contains the two photographs, -one of Marina on the wedding day and then one of both of them on their -wedding day. - -Exhibit 315 is a letter of three pages dated February 15, 1962. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 316 is a letter of two pages dated March 9, 1962. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 317 is a letter of two pages, dated April 12, 1962. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Again, on the letter of March 9, 1962, the date on that -letter is the date written by Robert Oswald the day he received that -letter. The letter itself is actually undated. But the envelope is -dated by Robert Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. That is correct, Mr. Oswald? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And is the envelope postmarked? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. And the postmark is---- - -Mr. OSWALD. March 9, 1962, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you. - -Mr. DULLES. That is date of receipt? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 317 is a letter of two pages dated April 12, 1962. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 318 is a letter of two pages dated May 22, 1962. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 319 is the front and reverse side of a postcard -dated October 10, 1962. - -Mr. McKENZIE. No, sir. April 10, 1962. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the postcard the witness---- - -Mr. McKENZIE. Has previously identified as being in the European -tradition of dating. - -Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 320 is a letter of one page dated November 11, -1962. Or is that '61? Would you check me on that, please? - -Mr. McKENZIE. I don't find that. Is it a letter or a postcard? - -That is November 11. That should be November 17, 1962. The photocopy -did not pick up all of it. And if you would like for us, we will change -that to November 17. It should be November 17th. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you make that change, please, in ink. - -Mr. McKENZIE. That is Exhibit No. 320. - -Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit No. 320, a letter of one page, the -original dated November 17th. What year? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Just November 17th. But the postmark shows it was dated -November 18, 1962. - -Mr. JENNER. Exhibit No. 321 is a postcard dated April 10, 1962. - -Mr. OSWALD. To which you have previously referred. - -Mr. JENNER. Have we got a duplication? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Are Exhibits 319 and 321 duplicates? - -Mr. McKENZIE. I would have to look at the exhibit. I have the original -here in front of me. - -Mr. JENNER. They are different exhibits. - -Mr. McKENZIE. This is Exhibit 321. - -The other one is this one you have here, and it is dated October 10, -1962. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. To make sure the record is clear, Mr. -Chairman--Exhibit No. 319, which is a postcard, is cancelled on its -face at Dallas on the 10th day of October 1962, and it reads on the -other side, "Dear Robert, for the new address you can write to Box -2915, Dallas, Texas. Also please stop by the house and collect any mail -which may have come in before the post office had a chance to change my -address to Dallas." And then in the center of the card "Lee", with two -X marks. Is that correct? - -Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, that is Exhibit 319. - -Now, Exhibit 321---- - -Mr. DULLES. Let me see. I would like to straighten that out. - -Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. DULLES. Back on the record. - -Mr. JENNER. Exhibit No. 321 is the postcard dated April 10, 1962. - -Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. I might say, Mr. Chairman, I had marked the exhibits -correctly. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And I concur in that remark. - -Mr. JENNER. Exhibit No. 322 is a letter of two pages dated March 17, -1963. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Dated March 16, 1963. It is postmarked the 17th, but -dated March 16, 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits, -Exhibits 295 through 322, both inclusive, the documents that have been -marked with the exhibit numbers so indicated, including the sub-exhibit -numbers on the photographs which have been heretofore identified. - -Mr. DULLES. They may be received. - -(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits 295 through -322, inclusive, and received in evidence.) - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may, I would like to say something for -the purpose of the record. - -Robert Oswald has brought these exhibits voluntarily. They are at the -Commission's convenience at any time. We do not know whether or not -they have been censored in Russia, but we are confident that they were, -because some of the letters refer to the censor in Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. That will appear, Mr. Chairman, from the photostats of the -exhibits as offered in evidence. - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much, Mr. McKenzie. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. McKenzie, among the original postcards and letters -which you produced for us is a postcard dated January 13---- - -Mr. McKENZIE. January 10th. - -Mr. JENNER. January 10, 1963. And may I have that, please? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir; you may. - -Mr. JENNER. That will be marked as Commission Exhibit No. 324. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 324 for -identification.) - -Mr. JENNER. Does the witness have the original before him? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Examining Commission Exhibit No. 324, which purports to be -a postcard, it is in fact a postcard, is it not? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And do you recognize the handwriting on the face and -reverse side of that postcard? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Whose handwriting is it? - -Mr. OSWALD. Lee Harvey Oswald's. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you receive that postcard in due course or about the -cancellation date appearing on the face of the card? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. And that cancellation date is January 13, 1963, is it not? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that is not correct. It is January 10, 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. This photostat makes a 10 look like a 13. - -This postcard was written to you, sent to you by your brother, Lee -Harvey Oswald, thanking you for a Christmas gift, was it not? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And is the postcard in the same condition now as it was -when you received it? - -Mr. OSWALD. Exactly, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. -324 the document which we have so marked. - -Mr. DULLES. It may be received. - -(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission -Exhibit No. 324 was received in evidence.) - -Mr. JENNER. We will return, Mr. Oswald, to the period about which -inquiries were made of you by Representative Ford and Representative -Boggs yesterday. That is, you had testified, as you will recall, of -efforts on the part of your mother to reach your brother by telephone -in Russia when news reached America of his alleged defection. I am -merely seeking to orient you at the moment. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Thank you. - -Mr. JENNER. In due course, you received a letter communication from -him, did you not? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Including the letter of November 8, 1959, about which I -questioned you yesterday. - -Now, I wish to proceed to the next letter, which is the letter of -November 26, 1959, a rather long letter. - -As a matter of fact, it consists of eight pages. - -Would you get that letter before you, please? - -Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. - -I have the letter before me now, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you will note from the letter that it purports to -be, and from its contents it is indicated that your brother Lee is -responding to correspondence that he had in turn received from you. - -I ask you this question first. - -As to all of these letters which you have now identified this morning, -or substantially all of them, had you been in correspondence with your -brother in the sense that you also wrote him? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you by any chance happen to retain a copy of, or copies -of any of the letters you sent him? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. So that at the moment we would have to call solely on your -recollection as to what you might have written during this period of -time while he was in Russia? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. DULLES. You made no copies of the letters yourself when you sent -them--you just sent an original? There was no copy? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, no copies were made. - -Mr. JENNER. I suggested that you might, during the evening, read the -letter of November 26th so as to refresh your recollection as to -whether you had written him posing questions to which he responded. -Have you had that opportunity? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not had that opportunity to read this -letter. - -Mr. JENNER. I would prefer to pass this letter, then, Mr. Chairman, -until the witness does have an opportunity to read it. Would you try -and do so at your first opportunity? - -Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. - -Mr. McKENZIE. It won't take but a minute here to do it. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. DULLES. We will recess for lunch at this time. - -(Whereupon, at 12:15 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -Afternoon Session - -TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWARD LEE OSWALD RESUMED - - -The President's Commission reconvened at 1:15 p.m. - -Mr. DULLES. You may proceed, Mr. Jenner. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, I have asked you--may I inquire of you whether -during the noon hour recess you have read Commission Exhibit 295, which -is a letter of November 26, 1959, from your brother to you? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have. - -Mr. JENNER. And have you also read the letter that preceded that one, -to wit, the letter of November 8, 1959, which is to you from your -brother, which is Commission Exhibit No. 294? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Chairman, the letter of November 8, which is the -earlier of these two letters--this was written by Lee Harvey Oswald -shortly after he arrived in Moscow in 1959. In substance, he said in -the letter that he supposed his brother Robert, the witness here, did -not wish to speak of his decision, that is, of Lee Harvey Oswald's -decision to remain in the Soviet Union and apply for citizenship there, -since Robert would not be able--and now I quote--"to comprehend my -reasons"--that is Lee Harvey Oswald's reasons. "You really don't know -anything about me. Do you know for instance, that I have wanted to do -this for well over a year? Do you know that I speak a fair amount of -Russian, which I have been studying for months?" - -The letter also said that he would not leave the Soviet Union under -any conditions, and would never return to the United States, "which -is a country I hate." He made reference to the fact that he received -a telegram from Robert in which Robert had apparently said that he -thought Lee "was making a mistake." - -Now, directing your attention to the November 8 letter first, would you -please state your reaction when you read that letter? - -(At this point the letters of November 8, 1959 and November 26, 1959 -were physically set forth in the transcript of testimony. In order to -achieve consistency in the handling of the exhibits upon the printing -of the testimony, those letters are not reproduced in the printed -transcript. They are reproduced in the exhibit section as Commission -Exhibits Nos. 294 and 295.) - -Mr. OSWALD. I recall my reactions to this letter, sir. It was something -I more or less expected in general, since this was, more or less in -general what the newspapers had been publishing. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that the only reason you make that remark--that you -had expected it in general solely because of what you read in the -newspapers, or had there been any other factor that led you to have -that expectation? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was no other factor that led be to believe -that anything like this was going to happen prior to the happening. -My reaction to the letter, as I have stated, was solely in general -expecting from what I read in the newspaper that the letter would be -something of this nature when I did hear from him. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you had any conversation prior thereto during your -lifetime and that of your brother Lee in which he expressed his views -of the character that he wrote in this letter of November 8, 1959? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I most certainly did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you ever discussed with him, in any conversation -between you and your brother Lee, with or without your brother John -present or your mother, in which his feeling toward or reaction to the -government of the United States had been discussed? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; at no time, as I stated yesterday, have we ever -discussed politics, and most assuredly I did not have any inclination -in any degree that anything of this nature was in his mind. - -Mr. JENNER. So the views expressed by your brother in the letter of -November 8 came to you as a complete surprise? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; with the qualification that this is what I -expected after reading the newspapers. - -Mr. DULLES. May I ask one question there. - -When your brother left, after that short stay following his service in -the Marine Corps, did you know that he was going to Russia--did he say -anything to you about going to Russia at that time? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he say to you as to his plans? - -Mr. OSWALD. That he was going to New Orleans, Louisiana, to visit my -Aunt Lillian. - -Mr. JENNER. Your Aunt Lillian whom? - -Mr. OSWALD. Murret. - -Mr. JENNER. The family you identified yesterday--the Murret branch of -your family? - -Mr. OSWALD. I don't recall identifying them. - -Mr. JENNER. There was one occasion yesterday. - -Mr. OSWALD. All right. Yes, sir; that is correct. And that he was---- - -Mr. JENNER. That is an Aunt on which side--your father's or mother's? - -Mr. OSWALD. My mother's side. And that he was going to visit with them, -and at the same time find a job in New Orleans, and make his home in -New Orleans, Louisiana. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he give you any indication at any time during his -stay--this was in Fort Worth? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. During his stay in Fort Worth, upon his return and -discharge from the service, and while he was there, that gave you any -indication whatsoever of any intention on his part to leave the country? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; none whatsoever. - -Mr. JENNER. Whether he was going to go to Europe, Russia, or anywhere -else? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. The only information he gave me was that he was -going only to New Orleans, Louisiana, from Fort Worth, Texas. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you spend a good deal of time with him while he was in -Fort Worth, Texas, in this interim period? - -Mr. OSWALD. Approximately one day out of the two or three days he was -there. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you suggesting that most of your contact with him -during this period was on one of those days, or that the total amount -of time that you spent with him during that period aggregated one day? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, that I at least talked to him on the -telephone on one day, and then the next day he spent the day at our -home. - -Mr. JENNER. And that is the day that you went off hunting, which you -testified about yesterday? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And never during any of the contact that you had with him -did he imply or state directly that he had any contemplation of a trip -which would take him out of the United States? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. DULLES. You didn't know about his having applied for a new passport? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not know he applied for any passport. - -Mr. JENNER. During the day that he visited you, did your mother visit -at your home on that day? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not. - -Mr. JENNER. At any time during the period between his discharge from -the Marines and his arrival in Fort Worth, and his departure, was there -any occasion on which both you, your mother, and your brother Lee were -together? - -Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion between you at any time during -that period of the reason, if any special reason, for his discharge -from the Marine Corps, earlier than he might have been discharged in -normal course, which as I understand would have been in December of -that year? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, we had a brief discussion on that. - -Mr. JENNER. Who initiated it? - -Mr. OSWALD. I feel certain like I did. - -Mr. JENNER. And what did you do? Ask him--just tell us what you asked -him. And why you were curious, if you were. - -Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my memory, I asked him--because I was aware -of his approximate date of discharge, his regular date of discharge, -or release from the service, and I asked him why he was discharged or -released earlier than that date. And his reply was that mother had -written the Red Cross and requested that he be released earlier. - -Mr. JENNER. Written the Red Cross? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I also---- - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say why she had written requesting that he be -released earlier? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not to my recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. He just said mother had written the Red Cross asking that -he be released earlier. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That is all he said? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. He didn't elaborate on that? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you didn't inquire of him beyond that? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. When had you last seen your mother prior to this occasion? - -Mr. OSWALD. May I have his release date, please? - -Mr. LIEBELER. September 11, 1959. - -Mr. OSWALD. I would say approximately three or four months earlier. - -Mr. JENNER. Three or four months. That would be sometime in May? - -Mr. OSWALD. Approximately, yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. 1959? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you talked with her in the interim period? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had. - -Mr. JENNER. How long prior to his return to Fort Worth on September 11 -or 12, 1959, had you talked to her? - -Mr. OSWALD. I do not remember, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, could you give us an estimate, that is in terms of -whether it was weeks or several months? - -Mr. OSWALD. I can give an estimate of several months. - -Mr. JENNER. Several months? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Your mother was then residing in Fort Worth, was she not? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. DULLES. Was she hospitalized at this period? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, she was not. Not to my knowledge. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of her state of well being? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. During the four month period? - -Mr. OSWALD. Sir? During the four month period? - -Mr. JENNER. You say for three to four months prior to September 11, -you had not seen your mother, that for several months prior to that, -you had not talked with her. - -I take it from that that you were not aware of her well being, whether -she was in good health, poor health, or otherwise? - -Mr. OSWALD. During the approximate date of three or four months prior -to Lee's release from the service, I was aware that she did have an -accident at her place of employment there in Fort Worth, at which time, -if memory serves me correct, something fell on her, on her face, and -injured her nose. - -I was aware from conversations with her at that time that she was -consulting or going to various doctors. And she told me at that time---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Having reached that point--is that how you first -discovered that your mother had suffered an accident? You say she told -you. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And I take it, then, that you had not talked with her for -several months prior to September 11 nor seen her before sometime, or -later than sometime in April of 1959, that this telephone conversation -must have taken place several months prior to September 11. Am I -correct about that? - -Mr. OSWALD. It was not a telephone conversation, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You saw her? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. In the month of April '59? - -Mr. OSWALD. Approximately that date. - -Mr. JENNER. And did you visit her, or did she visit you? - -Mr. OSWALD. I saw her at her place of employment. - -Mr. JENNER. And how did that come about? - -Mr. OSWALD. I do not remember, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Would it refresh your recollection if I recited some -possibilities--that she called you and asked you to come to see her, -that you desired to inquire of her, see if she was all right, or was it -that you just happened to be in the downtown Fort Worth area, and you -stopped by to see her, knowing where she was employed? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe the latter would possibly be more accurate. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that your best recollection at the moment? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. She was not employed at that time at the downtown -area of Fort Worth, but rather at a suburb store, Cox's Department -Store. - -Mr. JENNER. This is a shoe store? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, this is just a large department store, from -wearing apparel to toys, a full line store. - -Mr. JENNER. How did you become aware she was employed there? - -Mr. OSWALD. I do not remember, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. How long--did you know then how long she had been employed -at Cox's Department Store? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. How did you become aware of the fact she was so employed? - -Mr. OSWALD. I do not remember, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not. - -Mr. DULLES. About how long was this after the accident, or was it after -the accident? - -Mr. OSWALD. My recollection of that, sir--this was shortly after the -accident. She was still employed there, even though I understand from -our conversation that day that she had been off for a while--I don't -know how long a period--and that she was still employed there. Because -this is where I did see her, at her counter in this department store. - -Mr. JENNER. On this occasion, when you stopped by to see her, she -related to you an accident she had suffered--that was the first news -you had of it? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You had not known she was ill or what her state of well -being was prior to that time? - -Mr. OSWALD. None that I remember, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Where is the Cox's Department Store located with respect to -your place of business? I am seeking now distance, and the convenience -of getting there. - -Mr. OSWALD. From my place of business at that time in Fort Worth this -was approximately four or five miles west. I might further state, sir, -it was approximately two miles from my home. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you come from your home to her place of business or -from work to her place of business? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe I went from home to her place of business. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this a week day, a working day? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I don't believe it was. - -Mr. JENNER. That is not for you. Was it for her? - -Mr. OSWALD. It was for her, sir, not for me. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, it was a Saturday. - -Mr. OSWALD. I would believe that would be correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And has this discussion served to refresh your recollection -or stimulate your recollection now as to why you went by to see her? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it has not. - -Mr. JENNER. May I ask you this, sir? - -When had you last seen your mother prior to this occasion that you -visited her? - -Mr. OSWALD. I do not remember, sir. I would say, as we said before, -several months. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. That would be several more months, back into the -winter time of 1959? - -Mr. OSWALD. '58, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes--'58. - -Well, would it be back in the winter of '58, say January? Or could it -have been? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not that long. We are talking, if I am correct, -sir, approximately April of 1959. January of 1958 would be well over a -year. It had not been that long. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, then--I had said January '59, and you said several -months. - -Now, several months prior to April of 1959, would be or might be as far -back as January of 1959, am I not correct? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it could be that far. - -Mr. JENNER. And your present recollection is that it might have been -that much of a period of time--sometime in January, 1959, to this -occasion in April of 1959 when you had--you visited her at Cox's -Department Store? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; or possibly even longer. - -Mr. JENNER. Possibly even longer than that. Back into 1958. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Could you give me your best recollection at the moment as -to the last time you saw your mother in the year 1958? - -Mr. OSWALD. I cannot recall any specific time during the year of 1958 -that I did see her. - -Mr. JENNER. Would it be if at all quite infrequent? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, quite infrequent. - -Mr. JENNER. This leads me to put this general question to you, Mr. -Oswald. - -I take it that for some period of time in that area of time--that is -'58, '59, and perhaps even back of that--your contact with your mother -was quite limited? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Over what period of time did that persist? Give us the -broad picture first. - -Mr. OSWALD. I would say, sir, quite frankly that the original occurred -prior to my joining the Marine Corps in 1952. - -Mr. JENNER. And persisted thereafter? - -Mr. OSWALD. Persisted thereafter that I saw her only very infrequently. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your joining the Marine Corps--was that stimulated in -any respect by your relations with your mother, or your mother's with -you? - -Mr. OSWALD. Partly, sir; it was. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you state that, please? - -Mr. OSWALD. At the end of the school year of 1952, which was -approximately May 29, 1952---- - -Mr. JENNER. You were then 17 years old, is that correct? - -Mr. OSWALD. 18 years old. I, of course, was still living at home. In -approximately the middle part of June 1962 a friend of mine in Fort -Worth and I decided to take a hitch-hiking trip to Florida. We left -Fort Worth in the middle of June, 1962, and we---- - -Mr. DULLES. '52? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. In June of 1952 we left Fort Worth and traveled -I believed as far as Gulfport, Mississippi. And this friend I was -with--he did have a defect from birth on one foot that was starting to -bother him. And we decided it was best to return to Fort Worth, by a -different route than we originally left Fort Worth. We went from Fort -Worth to Shreveport, New Orleans, and Gulfport, Mississippi. - -Our return was Gulfport, Mississippi, New Orleans, Houston, Big -Springs, Tex., and Fort Worth, Tex. - -At that time I stayed at his home, with his mother and himself. - -Mr. JENNER. Why? - -Mr. OSWALD. Because mother and I was having a disagreement. - -Mr. JENNER. About what? - -Mr. OSWALD. About whether or not I was old enough to start my own life -generally. - -Mr. JENNER. That is whether you would depart the family home and live -on your own? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, and generally whether or not I had the right to -start my own life in the manner that I wanted to. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you unhappy with the manner and fashion of life that -you had led up to that moment? - -Mr. OSWALD. Not in the manner or fashion, sir. I objected quite -strongly to the apparent efforts of our mother to control me completely -in all respects. - -Mr. JENNER. Did that condition or relationship exist with respect to -your brother, John Pic? - -Mr. OSWALD. I would say generally it would, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. It did rather than it would? - -Mr. OSWALD. That it did, yes, sir--thank you. - -Mr. JENNER. And was that a factor in his enlisting in the Coast Guard? - -Mr. OSWALD. It is not to my knowledge that it was. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it you and John, then, had had, if I may use my -own expression, difficulties in your relationships with your mother, -particularly with reference to what you gentlemen thought as you -reached age 18, as the right to be independent and lead your own lives? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you think that your brother, Lee Oswald, had the same -feeling, that may have affected his joining the Marines? - -Mr. OSWALD. Based on my own personal experience, sir, I would reach -that conclusion. - -Mr. DULLES. You would? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I would. - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you. - -Did your mother know about this hitch-hiking trip, or did you just go -off on the trip? - -Mr. OSWALD. I just went off on the trip, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Without advising her? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you get in touch with her upon your return to Fort -Worth? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I would say this. I did attempt to call -her before I left Fort Worth on this trip, and there was no answer at -home. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now what led us back along this trail was the -conversation you had with your brother Lee when he was discharged from -the Marines on September 11, 1959, and his statement to you that he -had an early discharge because your mother had written a letter to the -Red Cross. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And then you saw her in April, and that was the last time -you saw her prior to seeing your brother on his discharge from the -Marines? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Now---- - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question there. - -Do you know whether your brother stimulated this letter from your -mother with regard to early discharge, or do you think she did this on -her own, or don't you know? - -Mr. OSWALD. It is my understanding, sir, that she had originated the -request to the Red Cross. - -Mr. JENNER. And that understanding is based on what? - -Mr. OSWALD. Just a general feeling that I had at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it induced also by discovering from your brother that -your mother had written a letter to the Red Cross? - -Mr. OSWALD. I am sure it was, sir. And I might add I pointed out to Lee -why did you accept this early discharge, since he only had a few months -more, I believe it was, to go. Because it had been my experience in the -service that when I ran across somebody who, for one reason or another, -was going to get out a little bit early, I understood that they perhaps -were subject to recall for that period at a later date, or something -along that line. And I thought it was unwise. - -Mr. JENNER. Is this what you said to him? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I pointed out--I felt like since it was to be -under the regular enlistment period very shortly thereafter, I believe -September 11, 1959, that it would have been the wise thing to stay in. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he say to that? - -Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You were living in Fort Worth, married, and still you were -having substantially little contact with your mother, is that correct? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you explain to the Commission the reasons for that, -the conditions which brought that about? - -Mr. OSWALD. After my marriage to Vada M. Oswald, my mother on a number -of occasions--I say a number--perhaps three or four occasions--made it -quite difficult for my wife and myself when we were in her presence at -her apartment there in Fort Worth. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, please, Mr. Oswald--when you say your mother made it -quite difficult, give us some examples. What do you mean by "made it -quite difficult"? - -Mr. OSWALD. Generally, sir, it was the continuation that, even though I -was married and apparently able to take care of myself and start my own -family, she certainly wanted to--my mother certainly wanted to--still -control my thinking, my actions, and my wife's actions. - -Mr. JENNER. Can you give us one specific example? - -Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I cannot recall any specific examples. - -Mr. JENNER. Indicate the nature of those incidents. - -Mr. DULLES. Had she objected to your marriage? - -Mr. OSWALD. I don't believe she did, sir. At least I do not recall any -time that she ever stated that, any objections to my marriage. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling that she objected? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, to some extent I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have a conversation with her about your becoming -married before you became married? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did. - -Mr. JENNER. And did she--what views did she express in that connection? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, that would be generally that I was leaving -her alone, that both Lee and John at this time were in the service, and -she would be alone, and that she would like for me to live with her, -that I would stay with her. - -Mr. JENNER. When was your marriage again, please? - -Mr. OSWALD. I have never stated it before, sir. It was in -November--November 20 or 21, 1956. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. JENNER. The question has been asked of you as to the date of your -marriage. - -Mr. OSWALD. This was in November 1956, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you been courting your present wife prior to that time? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was your mother acquainted with her? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes sir; she was. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she--did her objections to your marriage, in addition -to those you stated--were there any personalities in the sense of her -objecting to your fiance? - -Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any feeling that there was any personality in -the sense of objection on her part, or lack of approval of your fiance? - -Mr. OSWALD. If I might say, sir, I feel sure there was, and in my mind -right now--I can think of really no one that she ever approved of to -the extent of my friend, either boys or girls. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that also true of your brother, John Pic? And I will -also ask you about Lee Harvey. - -Mr. OSWALD. John very seldom, if memory serves me correct, ever brought -any of his friends over to the house, to meet mother. - -Mr. JENNER. Presented them to mother, you mean? - -Mr. OSWALD. Presented them to mother. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that his choice? - -Mr. OSWALD. I would say so now that I believe it would have been his -choice. - -Mr. JENNER. He preferred not to? - -Mr. OSWALD. This would be my assumption, that he preferred not to. - -Mr. JENNER. Not presenting his friends to your mother? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you answer the same question as to Lee, as to whether -he brought his friends to your home? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe he did. He quite frequently played -around the house with friends there in the neighborhood. - -Mr. JENNER. They were children, however, in the immediate neighborhood? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. He is five years younger than you. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. He would have been 13 in 1952, this period we are -talking about. - -Mr. JENNER. We are interested in this matter of the antipathy existing -between you and John on the one hand and your mother on the other. -Had that gone on for sometime? In order that I don't violate the same -thing that I raise with you occasionally, let me take you back to the -military school days, or to Bethlehem Orphanage. Did a measure of -antipathy exist at that time? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I don't believe it did. - -Mr. JENNER. When did it really arise in any marked degree? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe after her divorce from Mr. Ekdahl. - -Mr. JENNER. That was in June 1948. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And from the time that we moved to the Young -Street address in Fort Worth. - -Mr. JENNER. At or about that time? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you refresh my recollection as to when that was? Was -that in 1948? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you please indicate how that antipathy or that change -was evident? What change of attitude was there, either on the part of -you boys, or on her part, or on the part of all of you? - -Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps, sir, for the first time in any period, all of -us were together. And perhaps, sir--I say perhaps this would be -correct--she did not know myself and my older brother John at that -particular time to any extent. - -Mr. JENNER. You had been away at school pretty much? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. But you had been home for three months in the summertime? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. But still, searching my own mind, -I certainly felt this way at that time. And John and I were not -accustomed to her. Certainly I cannot speak for John. But for myself, -on that point, I would say we were not accustomed to her. We had -become--there again I say we--John and I--I feel like I certainly had -become more disciplined and used to being disciplined by men, and not -used to having a woman around the house. I believe this was perhaps my -feeling at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, if we can return to the events of April -1959, did your mother appear to you to have been injured? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she did. - -Mr. JENNER. What evidence was there of her injury? - -Mr. OSWALD. There appeared to be a little swelling in the upper part of -the nose. - -Mr. JENNER. Any scratch or other skin break? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; none that I recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you form an opinion at that time as to whether her -injury was major or minor? - -Mr. OSWALD. I asked her about it, or she volunteered the information of -how the accident occurred, and that she had been seeing doctors, and so -forth. And I did recall her stating to me that she had been to either -two or three doctors, and none of them had said anything was wrong with -her, and then she was insisting that there was definitely something -wrong, and she was continuing to see other doctors. - -Mr. JENNER. Had that sort of thing occurred prior thereto, in which -your mother felt that she was ill and she went to physicians, and the -physicians indicated otherwise? - -Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. She was not chronic in that respect? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not to my knowledge. - -Mr. DULLES. Was she hospitalized at any time in connection with this -injury? - -Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Did she have to give up her work for a period of time, or -did she continue working? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe she did miss a short period of time when the -accident occurred. - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you. - -Mr. JENNER. But she was at work on the day you visited her? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you forewarned that your brother was returning from -the service earlier than he was scheduled to return? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I don't believe I was. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you forewarned that he was returning at all at this -particular time--that is, on or about the 11th of September, 1959? - -Mr. OSWALD. If I may take a moment, please, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I was not aware that he was being released from -the service earlier. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you received any communication from him prior to his -return--that is a communication that was reasonably near the time of -his return? - -Mr. OSWALD. The only one that I have a record of, sir, is a letter -dated--postmarked June 6, 1959, at Santa Ana, California, addressed to -me at my Fort Worth address of 7313 Davenport, return address, Pfc. L. -H. Oswald, Santa Ana, California. The letter itself is undated. - -Mr. JENNER. You have made reference, Mr. Oswald, to a letter you -received in an envelope postmarked June 6, 1959, from your brother. You -have the original of that letter before you? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, that letter--did you receive in addition to this -letter until September 11, 1959, any other letter from your brother? - -Mr. OSWALD. Not that I can recall, sir, or that I have record of. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, this letter in the third paragraph reads, "Well, -pretty soon I will be getting out of the Corps, and I know what I want -to be and how I am going to be it, which I guess is the most important -thing in my life"--"in life." Have I read it correctly? - -Mr. OSWALD. You have, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you respond to that letter? - -Mr. OSWALD. Not to my recollection did I respond to the letter, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, when your brother was mustered out, on or about -September 11, 1959, did you have a discussion with him with respect to -this subject matter--that is what he wanted to be in life, and how he -was going to go about it? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not--to this extent. He did, of course, -indicate to me that he wanted to go to New Orleans, Louisiana, and live -and find a job there, and he did not indicate what type of job or what -type of work he wanted to do. - -Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, Mr. Chairman, this letter -has been identified and is in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 296. - -How did you learn that your brother was in Fort Worth, upon his being -mustered out of the Marines? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, he called me on arrival at Fort Worth. - -Mr. JENNER. That was the first notice or knowledge that you had that he -had been discharged? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that correct? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And his call to you was the first notice or knowledge you -had that he was in Fort Worth? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. It necessarily follows, and I take it it is a fact, -that your mother had not called you to advise you that he was being -discharged or would be discharged at or about that time? - -Mr. OSWALD. Not that I can remember, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Might I ask you at this point whether your brother ever -talked to you about his experience in the Marines. Did he tell you -anything about that, give you any incidents? I think you only had one -day--that would have taken place on that one day, between the three or -four days between his return and going off again. - -Mr. JENNER. Or may I add, Mr. Chairman, any correspondence he had in -the Marines, and any leaves. - -Mr. DULLES. We have no letters, have we, from the witness? - -Mr. JENNER. No, but I thought there might possibly be some. - -Mr. DULLES. I don't want to interrupt, but it seemed to me to fit in at -this particular point. - -Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall, other than general discussion, about the -Marine Corps. I recall--and I believe this was on his leave in 1958, -when we discussed this--I had asked him did he know any of my drill -instructors, and I at the time recalled a senior drilling instructor at -Camp Pendleton, by the name of Sgt. Cobie. And he stated he did not. -However, he did run across, while he was in boot camp, some other drill -instructor, but he could not recall his name, who stated he recalled -me, or asked him one day did he have a brother that had been in the -Marine Corps a few years before. He said yes, he had. And apparently -this man did remember me, because he asked was I the right guide in -that platoon. And my brother Lee did not know that I was. I do recall -that conversation. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any other conversation with him or any -correspondence from him in which the subject matter of his career in -the Marines was discussed, or to which allusion was made? - -Mr. OSWALD. I certainly received other letters during the course of -his enlistment in the United States Marine Corps. I do not recall any -specific instance that reflected what his opinion was of the Marine -Corps, nor that at any time I remember did he refer to any happenings -or incidents while he was in the Marine Corps that perhaps might upset -him, or might have made him happy. - -Mr. JENNER. Nothing either way? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Completely bland in that respect? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you recall whether any of those letters are available -now? Do you have those letters? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I believe I do not have those. I say I believe I -do not. I have looked for just everything that I could possibly find -on Lee's life, and letters and so forth, and I have not run across any -others. - -Mr. JENNER. I was about to ask you that. You have made a thorough -search? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have. - -Mr. DULLES. If you should find them, you will make them available to -us, will you not? - -Mr. OSWALD. Certainly, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you. - -Just one more question on that, if I may. I would gather that the -correspondence you had during his stay in Russia was more voluminous -than while he was in the Marine Corps, from what you tell me. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it certainly was. There was certainly a larger -flow of letters from him, and from me to him, at this time than there -was during his stay in the United States Marine Corps. - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you. - -Mr. JENNER. So while he was in Russia, he wrote you considerably more -often, at least after the first year, I guess it was, or nine months, -than he had theretofore? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. If I might there again refer to the letters from -Russia received from Lee Harvey Oswald and placed in evidence before -this Commission, when he notified us in 1959 that he was no longer -going to write or contact us, and did not want us to contact him in any -way, it was until April of 1961 before I heard from him again, which -was, of course, a period of time after one year. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you written him in the meantime? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you know where he was in the meantime--that is, any -particular town or city in Russia? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. DULLES. And you had the impression that he did not want you to -write to him at that time? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Dulles, he says that in the letters. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes--one of these letters I am about to examine him about -so states. - -That is correct, is it not? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, however, that in contrast, commencing with -the letter in 1961, April I believe you said it was--from that time -forward, there was, by comparison, a considerable number of letters, -and a larger volume of correspondence than you had ever had from your -brother? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, there was a continuous flow. Realizing the period -that it would take to make a complete cycle of the exchange of one -letter to another, of approximately two weeks--the letters were quite -regular. - -Mr. JENNER. And this had not been the pattern even in prior years. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not. - -Mr. JENNER. When he was in the Marine Corps, or when you were in the -Marine Corps? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not. - -Mr. JENNER. Confirmatory of that, Mr. Oswald, I note in Commission -Exhibit No. 296, is the last paragraph which reads, "I know I haven't -written in a long time. Please excuse me. Well, there really isn't -too much news here. But I would like to hear from you and the family. -Write soon. Your brother, Lee". I take it from that that there had -been--this was the first communication you had had from him, as he -says, in a long time. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Does your memory serve you sufficiently now to define more -clearly the period to which he refers as "a long time"? - -Mr. OSWALD. I would say in between the leave in 1958, and his letter -received, postmarked in June 1959, I would not have received over two -or three letters. - -Mr. JENNER. His leave in '58 was when, again, please? - -Mr. OSWALD. I recall this to be in the early fall of the year--perhaps -September. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Directing your attention now back to the letter -of November 8, 1959, which is Commission Exhibit 294, I will ask you -this: Is this the first letter you received from him from Russia? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Is it the first communication of any kind, at least -directly from or initially by him, that you had from him? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. This is, then, the first time you heard from him from the -day he departed to go to New Orleans, as he had stated to you, for the -purpose of finding employment? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. You testified yesterday that you responded to this -letter--that is, Commission Exhibit 294, dated November 8, 1959. Is -that correct? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. You were unable to recall particularly well yesterday your -letter in response to Commission Exhibit 294. Has the reading of the -letter of November 26, 1959, which is Commission Exhibit 295, and your -re-reading of the letter of November 8, Commission Exhibit 294, served -to refresh your recollection as to the contents of your letter which -you wrote in response to Commission Exhibit 294? - -Mr. OSWALD. To some degree, sir, it most certainly has. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Would you now, having had your recollection -refreshed, relate to us as near as may be, if you are able to do so, -your letter in response to your brother's letter, Commission Exhibit -294? - -Mr. OSWALD. Which was the letter of November 8--is that correct? - -Mr. JENNER. That is correct. - -Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my recollection, in my response to his -letter, I asked him why he went to Russia, and for what purpose he went -to Russia. And I believe, sir, that is to the best of my ability, in -the remembrance of my letter, that would be the only two questions that -I asked him. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, in the letter of November 8, he says, "Do you know, -for instance, that I have wanted to do this for well over a year"--that -is, go to Russia. I take it from your prior testimony that you had not -known, either well over a year or even for an instant, that he had any -intention of going to Russia. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Had the name Albert Schweitzer College ever been mentioned -by your brother Lee prior to this time--that is, let us say, prior to -the middle of September 1959? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not. - -Mr. JENNER. He also states in this letter of November 8--makes the -rhetorical question--"Do you know that I speak a fair amount of -Russian, which I have been studying for many months". Had that subject -matter ever come to your attention prior to his uttering it in the -letter of November 8? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it had not. - -Mr. JENNER. You did not know, up until this time, that your brother had -been studying Russian while in the Marines? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. And again if I may elaborate on that, I -was not aware that he ever studied any foreign language. - -Mr. DULLES. Did your brother ever talk to you about what he was reading -during this period? - -Mr. JENNER. Or at any time, during his school period? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. Of course, I have seen him read various books. -I never did see him read a book--unless the covers--or perhaps if I -picked it up--it didn't indicate anything about communism or socialism. -He did like to read. He read quite a bit. And by this, I have observed -him to read anything from funny books to novels, to westerns, the full -scope. He liked American history. I have seen him read American history -a great deal. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he a voracious reader? That is, did he read a great -deal, devote much attention to reading? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he was what I would term an assiduous reader. - -Mr. JENNER. I am directing your attention to his--oh, say, from age, -let's say, nine or ten to the time he enlisted in the Marines--maybe we -better go back a little bit more, since you were away. I would like to -cover his youth up to the time he enlisted in the Marines. Is that the -period of which you speak? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. I speak of a later period--my visit to -New Orleans after I received my discharge from the Marine Corps. - -Mr. JENNER. And before he enlisted in the marines? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; before he enlisted in the Marine Corps. And of -his moving to Fort Worth. - -Mr. JENNER. Fix the time. - -Mr. OSWALD. With mother--in 1955. - -Mr. JENNER. On these occasions you observed him reading assiduously? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you had an opportunity, and you embraced it to some -extent, just out of curiosity if nothing else, of observing the -nature and character of the literature and the subject matter of the -literature he was reading? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And it is of the nature and the subject matter you already -stated? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. During any of that period, and any observation you ever -made whether then or prior thereto, had you noticed him or seen any -books--he uses the expression "Marxism", communism--or any books or -works, or pamphlets of that nature? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. I did not at any time observe him -reading or have in his possession any type of pamphlet or book, should -I say, of a political nature. - -Mr. JENNER. Even American politics? - -Mr. OSWALD. American politics, of course--American history, of course, -would go into some degree of American politics. - -Mr. JENNER. I think you are probably right. But other than American -history. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not observe him. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, your brother states in this letter of November 8, the -United States was a country that he hated. Taking the whole letter, we -would like to have you state what your reaction to the letter was when -you received it and read it, in view of the rather severe things he -says, and startling things he says in this letter. - -Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir, refer to my testimony yesterday in relation -to this letter, and my reactions then, I thought more along that line. -I have not come up with any other conclusions where my thinking as -to my reaction at the time I received the letter--other than it was -something that I expected, due to what I had read in the newspapers -prior to receiving the letter of November 8, 1959. - -Mr. JENNER. Your shock, if I may call it such, had been conditioned---- - -Mr. OSWALD. To some degree it had; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. In other words, then, the letter, when you did receive it, -with these utterances in it, did not surprise you? - -Mr. OSWALD. I feel, perhaps, if anything would have surprised me -that did not appear, to my recollection, would be the statement "I -will never return to the United States, which is a country I hate," -particularly the latter part of that statement--"which is a country I -hate." - -Mr. JENNER. That did shock you despite your having read the newspaper -clippings or articles? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I feel certain that it did. - -Mr. JENNER. And in your response to your brother's letter, did you -advert to that particular portion of his letter? To the best of your -recollection? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--I was just making a note on that. I didn't -realize you would ask me that so soon. I do believe I asked him why he -hated the United States. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, have you given us--exhausted your recollection as -to the content of the letter you wrote in response to the letter of -November 8, Commission Exhibit 294? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I feel I have. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, now, let us turn, if we might, to Letter No. 26, -which is Exhibit 295, an eight-page letter. - -Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, to summarize this letter, if I may, for -you, it is an eight-page letter. Lee Harvey Oswald sets forth in it -extensively his philosophies, what they purport to be as of that time, -the reasons why he has decided to defect to the Soviet Union. - -He complained about the economic system in the United States. - -Mr. DULLES. System? - -Mr. JENNER. System--which he stated exploited all of its workers. - -He complained of segregation and unemployment, and automation in the -United States. - -He stressed disapproval of American foreign policy, which he -characterized as being one of imperialism. In framework, it is framed -as a response partly to some questions that our present witness has -posed in a letter, which Mr. Robert Oswald had written in response -to the letter of November 8, such as a question as to why Lee Harvey -Oswald and his fellow workers and communists would like to see the -present capitalist system of the United States overthrown--he having -made an indication to the witness in that respect. - -Apparently in Robert's letter to Lee, he had couched it in terms of -suggesting that apparently Lee Harvey Oswald thought he might have -some advantage economically if he went to Russia, and Lee Harvey -Oswald responded, "So you speak of advantages. Do you think that is -why I am here, for personal material advantages? Happiness is not -based on one's self, does not consist of a small home, of taking and -getting. Happiness is taking part in a struggle where there is no -borderline between one's own personal world and the world in general. -I never believed I would find more material advantages at this stage -of development in the Soviet Union than I might have had in the United -States." - -Mr. McKENZIE. At this point, Mr. Chairman, I might also add, in -connection with what Mr. Jenner has stated about this letter, that the -letter appears, in answering questions that Robert may have posed in a -previous letter to Lee Harvey Oswald--it appears to have been lifted in -some respects out of a communist text, and it even appears to me--and -this is pure supposition, that it could possibly have been written by -someone else with Lee Harvey Oswald coming back in and adding other -things to it. It is the longest letter received, consisting of some -eight pages. A careful reading of the letter will show only one or two -misspelled words, whereas in the other letters there are a number of -misspelled words. - -And I don't know what that adds or detracts from the record. But I do -feel that there is a difference in the letters as you read all of them -put together. - -Mr. DULLES. I am glad you called that to our attention. It is an -interesting observation. - -Mr. OSWALD. And I would like to, if I may, point out something I -observed in between the letter of November 8, 1959, and the letter of -November 26, 1959. - -In the letter of November 8, 1959, towards the last paragraph on the -last page, I quote, "I really don't see what we could talk about. If -you want to send me money, that I can use. But I do not expect to be -able to pay it back." - -I now refer to the letter of November 26, 1959, on the last page, the -second last paragraph, "I have no money problems at all"--underlined. - -"My situation was not really as stable then as it is now. I have no -troubles at all now along that line." - -Mr. McKENZIE. And, furthermore, he had moved from Room 233 in the -Metropole Hotel to Room 201 in the Metropole Hotel. And marks on the -letter of November 26th, "Note new room number." - -Mr. DULLES. Could I get into the record here, just for -clarification--when was this written in relation to his arrival in the -Soviet Union? Do we have that on the record? Was it a month after? Was -it before the other incident that has been described for the record, -with regard to---- - -Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir; I believe I can answer that. - -Mr. JENNER. I didn't want to hazard a guess. If you know, will you -please state it? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe Lee, as a matter of record, did arrive in the -Soviet Union on October 13, 1959. - -Mr. DULLES. Is it written then, roughly, a little less than a month -and--a little over a month after his arrival--these two letters -referred to? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. I intended to draw your attention to that which you have -already mentioned--that is, in the letter of November 8 he indicated -that he would be pleased if you would send him some funds, whereas on -the last page of the letter of November 26th he advises you that as far -as funds are concerned--he is in good shape. - -Mr. DULLES. And both of these letters were written, as I recall, before -he was advised that he could not stay on in the Soviet Union the first -time? - -Mr. JENNER. That is correct, sir. They are written before he went to -Minsk, as well. - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you sent him any funds in the interim period? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Referring to my testimony yesterday--at which time I replied to his -letter of November 8, 1959, on his request for any money that I might -send him, I stated to him I would gladly send him the necessary money -for his return to the United States, and for that reason only. - -I did not enclose any money in my answer. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, that is an interesting factor about which I would like -to inquire of you; also, as to its implication. - -Later, your brother, as the correspondence we have now introduced in -evidence discloses, desired to return to the United States. And he was -having, according to the correspondence, some problem in raising the -necessary funds to return to the United States. - -Did he at any time write you requesting that you honor your letter in -response to his letter of November 8th in which you said you would -gladly send him money to return to the United States? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not request it directly. He had certainly -indicated, as his letters do indicate, that he was having a little -difficulty in raising the necessary funds to return to the United -States. And I, in my reply to that letter, volunteered to raise the -necessary funds to bring his wife and himself to the United States. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you identify the particular letter to which you now -refer? - -Mr. OSWALD. In reply to your question, sir, I am referring to the -letter of February 15, 1962. - -Mr. JENNER. Which, for the record, is Commission Exhibit 315. - -Did you respond to that letter and offer to advance to him the funds -necessary to bring about his return to the United States? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. And I also included an offer for him to -stay with us on his return to the United States, he and his family, -for any length of time that they so desired, until he was able to get -settled himself. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever receive from him a letter in which he -responded directly to your offer to advance funds? - -Perhaps I will put it this way. Have you produced all of the letters -that you received from him while he was in Russia? - -Mr. OSWALD. To my knowledge this is all of the letters I received from -him. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you make it a practice during this period to keep, -intentionally and deliberately keep, all letters that you received from -him? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that was my intention. - -Mr. JENNER. To the best of your knowledge you have produced all of -those letters to the Commission? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever report to your brother that it would be -necessary for you to make a loan on your automobile in order to advance -any funds to him? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Including particularly the $200 that you advanced to him -when he returned in June of 1962? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you become aware at any time prior to November 22, -1963, that he made a representation to the New York welfare authorities -that it would be necessary for you to make a loan on your automobile to -advance the $200? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not. - -Mr. JENNER. There was no discussion of that subject by him with you -when he returned to Fort Worth and lived in your home, or thereafter? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. This is the first knowledge I have of such a -report. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Now, returning to the letter of November 26--and keeping in mind, also, -the letter--let's just stay with the letter of November 26th. - -Prior to the time of the receipt of that letter, had your brother Lee -ever in your presence uttered thoughts of that nature, or even spoken -to you any thoughts of the nature contained in the letter of November -26th with respect to the United States, its economic system, Communist -Russia, or countries of that character? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. - -Mr. JENNER. And what was your reaction to the letter of November 26, -particularly those features of it dealing with his attitudes towards -the United States and its political and economic and social system? - -Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I remember somewhat vividly my reply to him--my reply -to his letter---- - -Mr. JENNER. You did reply to the letter of November 26th? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you please state what your reply was? - -Mr. OSWALD. I did reply to the letter of November 26, 1959, and it -was--and I believe until this day remains to be the longest letter I -ever wrote. - -Mr. JENNER. All right--tell us about it. - -Mr. OSWALD. I answered all the questions as to--if I may refer to the -first question. - -"Do you remember the time you told me about the efforts of your milk -company to form a union? Try to see why workers must form unions -against employers in the United States." - -I recall I did reply to that statement. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you say? - -Mr. OSWALD. It was my opinion--and I am not anti-union or pro-union. I -believe it should be taken on the basis of the individual companies. -It was my opinion that I expressed to him at that time that in this -country, the employees did have a right to vote yes or no whether or -not they wanted a union, and in this particular instance, the union was -voted out. - -Mr. DULLES. Could we just have a moment's pause? - -(Brief recess.) - -Mr. DULLES. Will you proceed? - -Is it all right to proceed? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; please. - -Mr. JENNER. You were reciting what you said in your letter of response -to the letter of November 26. - -Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir, if I may pause a moment to locate the -second question or some statement that perhaps I recall referring to -directly in my reply--I recall replying to the statement that was, -that is contained, on the second page of the letter of November 26, -to the latter part of this statement that I will quote from: "See the -segregation, see the unemployment and what automation is. Remember how -you were laid off at Convair?" - -I am referring now to the last question of "Remember how you were laid -off at Convair?" - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe I pointed out to him at that time that this -was something I was aware of when I accepted the job at Convair in -Fort Worth, Texas. It was a condition, perhaps an unspoken condition, -because it was a government job in that when I was laid off, I did not -have to go only to the government to look for employment but I was able -to secure the type of employment that I was most interested in at that -time or that he had a variety to choose from and that no one would say -to me that, "You work here or there." - -Mr. JENNER. Did you experience any bitterness in being laid off at -Convair? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Resentful? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your reaction? - -Mr. OSWALD. My reaction since I have been laid off at Convair and when -I was laid off at Convair I felt like it was the best thing that ever -happened to me. - -Mr. JENNER. When did that event take place? - -Mr. OSWALD. In August, 1957, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Proceed with your recollection of your reply to this letter. - -Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir, continue to answer something along the -question of how I felt or reacted to my layoff at Convair; the reason -why I recall the date is because my daughter was born two or three days -after I was laid off, and I knew I was going to be laid off before she -was born and I did not tell my wife and I recall that quite vividly. - -Thank you. - -Mr. JENNER. I think I will ask you an additional question about that, -if I may, please. - -Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion, at least in Lee's presence, -regarding your being laid off at Convair and your attitude with respect -thereto. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; none that I recall. - -Mr. JENNER. And where was he--let's see, 1957, he was in the Marines -then. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it then sometime along the line you had advised him -that you were no longer with Convair. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I feel certain like I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Perhaps you wrote him to that effect or you told him about -it when he was on leave in 1958. - -Mr. OSWALD. I would feel like perhaps I wrote him about it. - -Mr. JENNER. And to the best of your recollection did you indicate any -resentment or bitterness in that regard? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. As I have never been resentful to that or bitter -about it. - -Mr. JENNER. So that at least, as far as you can recall, any statement -you made or any attitude you have with respect to your layoff which -might have come to his attention, did not form a basis for his -predicating the Convair comment, on which he might have predicated the -Convair comment, in his letter of November 26? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Proceed. - -Mr. OSWALD. I also---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, if I asked you a similar line of questions with -respect to the union question would your answer be the same? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; It certainly would. - -Mr. JENNER. You never expressed any dislike of unions. You never -expressed to him, or in his presence, or members of your family, views -that unions were exploited? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -By the way, had there been any discussion in the course of your youth, -as you boys grew up, expressions in your family of any of these -attitudes that he is expressing in his letter of November 8 and his -letter of November 26? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. To my knowledge there was never any type of -discussion that would reflect any of the statements or questions that -he wrote in his letter of November 26, 1959. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you say to the extent there were discussions among -you, and your family life, that the contrary was expressed? - -Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall any discussions, sir, but if there was any -discussion it would have been to the contrary. - -Mr. JENNER. Your family was always a typical, loyal American family? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That is, loyal to the Government of the United States and -you thought well of it? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. When I say, you, I mean all of the members of your family -as far as you knew? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Proceed with your recollection of your response. - -Mr. OSWALD. I refer to his statement in the letter of November 26 on -the second page, "I can still see Japan and the Philippines and their -puppet governments. More important, I can see the Americans in uniform, -men who were there because they were drafted or because they were -adventurers or unemployed in civilian life." - -I referred to my own volunteering in the United States Marine Corps at -that time, and I felt that nothing he pointed out there applied to my -case, and I felt quite a few other men felt as I did, as to the reasons -behind their joining the United States service. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you expressed any dissatisfaction to him with your tour -in the Marines, or was that subject discussed in family councils or -visits on his part to Fort Worth? - -Mr. McKENZIE. May I for just a moment? - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. OSWALD. Would you repeat the question, I believe I had it; I want -to be sure of it. - -(The question was read.) - -Mr. OSWALD. I do not believe that at any time we discussed it. We might -have mentioned my tour in the United States Marine Corps. He was very -proud of my service record and it would so indicate that I conducted -myself in the best tradition of the United States Marine Corps; not -that I was any lily white, but I was never in any serious trouble and I -progressed in rank in keeping with the period that I was in the United -States Marine Corps. - -Mr. JENNER. Had that thought been expressed, or at least that flavor -left, with the members of your family? - -Mr. OSWALD. I feel that it was, particularly to Lee, because I---- - -Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate on that, please; we are interested in -that. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Because I feel very surely that the reason that -Lee joined the United States Marine Corps was because of my service in -the United States Marine Corps and he wanted to follow---- - -Mr. JENNER. And your reaction to it had been communicated by you to him? - -Mr. OSWALD. I feel like it was, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Many witnesses have a habit that you have when you feel -like it was. Do you mean that you actually conveyed that thought to him? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe I did, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. OSWALD. Thank you. - -I believe I was stating that I believe that the reason that Lee joined -the United States Marine Corps was to follow in my footsteps, in that -same service, and frankly I believe that at that time in earlier years -and later years that he looked up to me, not only in that respect, but -that eventually he wanted to follow in my footsteps. - -I would say within the family relation that Lee and I were closer than -Lee and mother or Lee and John during our entire lifetime. That if -there was something that he was going to discuss with anybody, or say -to anybody, within the family I would be the one that he would discuss -it with. - -I refer to his statement on the second page of the letter of November -26, 1959, "I will ask you a question, Robert, what do you support the -American government for? What is the ideal you put forward. Do not say -freedom because freedom is a word used by all people through all of -time." - -I did refer to the word "freedom" and I recall stating to him that the -word "freedom" to me was something that was earned and not handed down. - -I refer to the third page of the letter of November 26, 1959, and the -brief statement, "America is a dying country." - -I replied to him that perhaps, and I believe some great man said this -statement at one time or the other, I do not recall who, that we were a -sleeping giant, and that we were coming awake. - -This was, of course, in reference to the Communist world. - -Mr. JENNER. This was something you said in your letter? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. DULLES. May I ask what is the date of this letter? - -Mr. JENNER. It is in response to the letter of November 26. - -Mr. DULLES. November 26, yes. - -Mr. OSWALD. I refer to the bottom of the page of the letter of November -26, "So you speak of advantages. Do you think that is why I am here for -personal material advantages, happiness is not based on oneself, it -does not consist of a small home of taking and getting." - -I recall my reply to this series of questions as being--as to having -that right to seek for oneself his own personal desires to the extent -that the material advantages were something of a secondary nature, and -was something of a reward for his efforts. - -Mr. JENNER. While the witness is looking further, Mr. Chairman, this -is a little tedious, but as counsel for the Commission, I suggest -its importance and relevancy in that, if nothing else, it serves to -demonstrate the response of the witness to the letter indicating the -attitude of the Oswald family on these subjects and isolating these -views to Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. DULLES. I think this is important, and the more I hear of this -letter the more I get the impression that there was some help given in -writing this letter. - -Mr. JENNER. That is why I am spending so much time on it. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. With apologies to you, Mr. McKenzie, that is the only way -we can go at it because we don't have the actual response itself. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, I commend you on the way that you are -conducting this interrogation. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Oswald, under no circumstances speculate on what -you wrote in answer to these letters. State to the best of your -recollection only what you did write, if you recall. - -If you can't recall tell Mr. Jenner so. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, this is what I have been doing, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. In view of the importance of this letter of November 26 and -certain other of these letters, as Chairman and in view of the absence -of a number of my colleagues today for unavoidable reasons, I think it -might be well to insert the entire letter in the record and possibly -certain other letters on which you are going to interrogate the witness. - -You see no objection? - -Mr. McKENZIE. None whatsoever, Mr. Chairman. - -Mr. DULLES. I have in mind that other members of the Commission may not -be able to read all of the exhibits but I think they should read these -letters on which we are interrogating the witness. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. In order to get the full purport, flavor of this particular -line of interrogation. - -Mr. McKENZIE. I couldn't concur more, Mr. Dulles. - -Mr. DULLES. We will leave it then to your discretion with Mr. Rankin to -decide what letters should go in, in connection with his testimony. - -Mr. McKENZIE. I might add in that regard, Mr. Chairman, that I have -no objection, whatsoever to any or all of the letters going into the -record. - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you. - -Mr. JENNER. They are already in the record. But you mean set forth in -full in the record. - -Mr. McKENZIE. I would mark right now the spot in the record following -the Chairman's remarks and my concurrence and, of course, Mr. Jenner's -suggestion that the letter be in its entirety placed in the record, I -would mark that place now so that it could go in at this spot. - -Mr. JENNER. Also the letter of November 8. And November 26 letter. - -Mr. JENNER. Proceed, Mr. Oswald. - -Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall any other statements that I would have -replied to, or did reply to, in my reply to his letter of November 26, -1959. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, sir. - -Now, did you receive any direct response to your letter, and your next -letter is Commission Exhibit No. 296, sometime during the summer of -1959, it is a short one-page letter. - -Mr. OSWALD. This is December, 1959, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. No, it is in the summer of 1959, isn't it, or is that the -one-page letter which you had written December 17, 1959. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And is that the next letter you received from your brother? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Is there any reference in that letter to the response you -made to the November 26 letter? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. There is not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you receive any subsequent letter in which he made any -direct response to your long letter which you wrote him in response to -the letter of November 26? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he did not, and if I might say I wrote earlier and -as a reminder to myself that I was concerned at the time I received the -letter of December 17, 1959. - -Mr. JENNER. That is Commission Exhibit 297. - -Mr. OSWALD. That Lee did not have time to receive my reply to his -letter of November 26, 1959. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Then the next letter you received, at least in the series you have -produced, is May 5, 1961, a two-page letter, Commission Exhibit 298. - -Mr. OSWALD. Could I have that date again, please, sir? - -Mr. JENNER. May 5, 1961. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. He makes no response in that letter to your response to his -letter of November 26. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he does not. Perhaps, sir, the only way that I can -be aware that he received my letter in reply to November 26 letter, to -his letter of November 26, 1959, I did enclose one photograph of my -daughter Cathy Marie Oswald at the age of 2 years old in that letter. - -Mr. JENNER. In your response to his letter of November 26? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; and at a later date Lee was to tell me that he -did keep this photograph, so he did receive my letter. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you repeat what you just said, sir, or would you read -it, Mr. Reporter? - -(The reporter read the answer.) - -Mr. JENNER. You said Lee was to tell you, did you mean by that -expression that he actually acknowledged receipt of the photograph? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he did. - -Mr. JENNER. Which leads you to believe necessarily then that he -received your response to his letter of November 26. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he state that he had received that photograph in a -letter that he wrote you or was that orally after he returned to the -United States? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe this was orally, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. After he returned to the United States? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, returning to his short stay at Fort Worth upon his -being discharged from the Marines, what do you recall, if anything, of -any discussion respecting his financial status at that time, that is -whether he was in funds and if so, what volume of funds. - -Mr. OSWALD. I was not aware of his financial situation at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it discussed? - -Mr. OSWALD. Not that I recall, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did any member of the family, during that period of time, -ever discuss with you, having in turn discussed that subject matter -with Lee? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, they did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have a conversation with your mother prior to -November 22, 1963 respecting Lee's financial status at the period of -time when he was immediately--right at the time he was discharged from -the Marines? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I do not remember one. - -Mr. JENNER. So that up to November 22, 1963, there was never any -discussion in which you participated or which you overheard on that -subject? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, with respect to the remaining series of letters, were -you ever advised while your brother Lee was in Russia how much money he -was given or earned? - -Mr. OSWALD. While he was---- - -Mr. JENNER. Or he received? - -Mr. OSWALD. While he was in Russia employed? - -Mr. JENNER. While he was in Russia. - -Mr. OSWALD. While he was in Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. Either from his employment or by gift. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there is a reply in one of these letters that -I received from Lee from Russia stating how much he was making while -employed in Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. The letter will, of course, be the best evidence of that. -Did he say it in terms of dollars or in terms of rubles, what is your -recollection? - -Mr. OSWALD. In both, sir. I believe he stated it in the words rubles -and in parentheses in the amount of American dollars. - -Mr. JENNER. I see, we will find that out. - -Mr. OSWALD. And I believe on a monthly basis. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ever write you as to whether he had received any -money by way of gift from any agency in Russia? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, I respectfully submit that the letters -themselves would be the best evidence. - -Mr. JENNER. You are undoubtedly correct and I will desist. - -Did you have any discussion with him on that subject after he returned -from Russia? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Or on the subject of his earnings in Russia? - -Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you receive any packages or gifts from Russia while -your brother was there? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you receive? - -Mr. OSWALD. Well---- - -Mr. JENNER. And give the approximate times. - -Mr. OSWALD. There again, sir, there is a letter from Lee in Russia -stating that he had sent a gift or gifts to us at my residence in -Fort Worth, Tex. I recall that on two occasions we received gifts -from Russia at my address in Fort Worth, Tex. I believe the first one -consisted of Russian cigarettes, Russian candy, six place mats or six -napkins that Marina had embroidered herself. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Or at least what they told you Marina had embroidered. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And also a Russian wooden doll, the type that -pops open in the middle and has a smaller doll on the inside and so -forth down the line until you end up with one approximately an inch -high from one originating from one six or seven inches high. That was -the first package that I recall receiving from Lee and his wife while -they were in Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. Approximately when was that? - -Mr. OSWALD. Prior to Christmas of 1961. - -Mr. JENNER. There was a second occasion when you received a package? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. What was that? - -Mr. OSWALD. This was closer to Christmas of 1961. - -Mr. JENNER. And it contained what? - -Mr. OSWALD. It contained one Russian children's book. - -Mr. JENNER. In the Russian language or in English? - -Mr. OSWALD. In the Russian language, sir, and going by the cover of the -book and as you open the book in the center section, a Russian rocket -ship would unfold and be standing in the launch position, and was quite -evident by the pictures, at least in the book, that this was a book -for Russian children depicting the Russian efforts toward their space -program. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you still have that book? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. And there was also another children's book, -and I believe this package only consisted of a present for Cathy Marie -Oswald for Christmas, 1961 from her aunt and uncle, Lee and Marina. - -Mr. JENNER. A child's gift? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, and the second book was a child's coloring book, -a Russian coloring book. - -Mr. JENNER. Does that exhaust your recollection as to gifts you -received from them or from Lee while they were in Russia? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it does. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ever send you a pair of boots? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he did not. And I might add we also still have the -child's coloring book that was received at that time for Christmas, -1961. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, sir. - -Now, would you please relate to us everything that your brother Lee -told you about hunting in Russia? - -Mr. McKENZIE. You mean other than in correspondence? - -Mr. JENNER. I mean other than by the correspondence. I should precede -that by the question did you have any conversation with him about -hunting in Russia? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did. - -Mr. JENNER. And that occurred after he returned to the United States? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Fix the approximate date. - -Mr. OSWALD. Approximately the latter part of June, 1962. - -Mr. JENNER. While he was residing in your home? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he say? Excuse me, this occurred in your home? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did. - -Mr. JENNER. Was anyone present other than yourself and your brother? - -Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps Marina and my wife Vada. As I best remember the -conversation, since our interest in hunting was mutual, that he had on -two or three occasions gone bird hunting or duck hunting and that he -had killed some birds and some ducks on two or three of these occasions -that he had gone in, that he had only used a shotgun, that they were -not allowed to have a rifle. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion of that subject matter on any -other occasion prior to November 22, 1963? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe in his letters---- - -Mr. JENNER. No, discussions. - -Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, no, sir; there was not, not that I recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with him during the period from -his return in June of 1962 up to November 22, 1963, of his membership -in a gun club while he was in Russia? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did any discussion occur between you as to his membership -in any other group while he was in Russia, whether it was a gun club, a -social club, a labor union or otherwise? - -Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. In one of the letters, your brother Lee asked you whether, -to check to see if, the United States had any, lodged any charges -against him. - -Do you recall that? - -Mr. OSWALD. Briefly, yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you do when he made that request to you, if any? - -Mr. OSWALD. I recall replying to his letter and stated that to my -knowledge, and I could see no reason why they would have any charges -against him for going to Russia, because he was an American citizen, -and he was free to do as he chooses as long as it was not harmful -to the United States Government and I didn't feel like he had done -anything harmful to the United States Government by going to Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever write in any of the letters that you wrote -him, did you raise the question with him of whether he had in fact -renounced or attempted to renounce his United States citizenship? - -Mr. OSWALD. I was advised that, at the time, that we became aware that -Lee was in Russia by newspaper correspondents in Fort Worth, Tex., that -the United States Embassy acting on their own accord, would not allow -him to sign any final papers denouncing his United States citizenship. -Whether he wanted to or not they were attempting to prevent him from -doing this. I never did hear any more about that. Perhaps during the -correspondence or on his return from Russia, this was certainly evident -that he had not signed any final papers denouncing his United States -citizenship. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it from your response, sir, that you did not raise -that matter with him in any letters that you wrote to him? - -Mr. OSWALD. Not to my recollection, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with him on the subject on his -return to the United States? - -Mr. OSWALD. Possibly so, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that distinctly at the moment? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your brother Lee raise again with you, following your -response to his request that you investigate whether or not there were -any other charges against him; did he raise again with you the question -of whether you had made an investigation, whether there were charges? - -Mr. McKENZIE. When you say did he raise again---- - -Mr. JENNER. At any time subsequent thereto, that is apart from the -correspondence which has been introduced in evidence. - -Mr. McKENZIE. There are several instances in the correspondence, Mr. -Jenner, there are questions raised about this. - -Are you talking about after he returned from--to the United States from -the Soviet Union? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir; I am at the moment. - -Mr. McKENZIE. All right. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. When he returned to the United States and while he was -living with you, was there or were there any occasions in which there -was discussion of his trip back from Russia and the course they took in -returning to the United States, the means and manner of return? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there was. - -Mr. JENNER. Give us your recollection of what that discussion was and -what your brother and/or Marina said to you and your wife Vada or -either of them? - -Mr. OSWALD. I recall asking him how his trip was from Russia to New -York City by boat. I asked him what route they had traveled, and he -advised me then, that is as I believe he advised me in one of his -letters, the first one, was to go from Minsk to Moscow and then from -Moscow to Holland, I believe, to board a ship that touched at England, -and from England to New York City. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he or they---- - -Mr. OSWALD. He. - -Mr. JENNER. This is a conversation with him? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any conversation with Marina on this subject -or in her presence? - -Mr. OSWALD. Not that I recall, no, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. But he did state specifically that they had gone to Moscow? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And from Moscow to where? - -Mr. OSWALD. To Holland, if my memory serves me correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he say, did he indicate, how they had traveled from -Moscow to Holland, by what means of conveyance? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about how long they stayed in Moscow -before they took off for Holland? - -Mr. OSWALD. In this discussion, I do not recall that he did, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And did he say how long they stayed in Holland, if they -stayed there at all? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he did not. - -Mr. JENNER. But you do recall his stating specifically they touched -England in the sense that the ship---- - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; for supplies or for some other reason, it -appeared not to be, I say appeared, I assume it was not a very long -stay there and that they did not leave the ship. - -Mr. JENNER. He did state that they did not leave the ship at that point? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; this is an assumption on my part--the way he put -it to me. - -Mr. JENNER. And they proceeded from there directly to New York Harbor, -New York City. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. By what means? And he did report that to you? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did this series of letters you received in the early -portion, period of his stay in Russia excite your suspicions as to -whether he was or might be a Russian agent? - -Mr. OSWALD. If I understand the question correctly this was the early -stay of his in Russia in 1959? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir, 1959 and let us say to the early part of 1961. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any occasion to discuss that subject during -this period of time with your mother or she with you? - -Mr. OSWALD. Prior to his return in 1961 she did discuss this with me. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Where did this discussion take place? - -Mr. OSWALD. If I may fix the date approximately, sir, if you could give -me the date of her trip to Washington, D.C. - -Mr. JENNER. You have me at a disadvantage because Mr. Liebeler has been -called out and he can furnish that. I don't want to guess at it. - -Mr. McKENZIE. May I then ask if possibly the Chairman might recall? - -Mr. DULLES. The date of that visit to Washington? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. No, I don't think I do. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Possibly Mr. Rankin might know. - -Mr. JENNER. Our information was that that was January 26, 1961. - -Mr. OSWALD. Thank you, sir. If I may have, the question again, please. - -(The question was read by the reporter.) - -Mr. JENNER. Whether the suspicions, on the part of yourself or your -mother, were that your brother was or might be an agent for the Russian -Government. - -Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, sir, I believe I misunderstood. I thought it -was in reference to whether or not Lee might have been an agent of the -United States Government. - -Mr. JENNER. No. It was the Russian Government I asked about. - -Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry, sir. At no time was any discussion that I have -been into indicated that in any way. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you have referred then to, or had in mind, a -conversation with your mother as to whether your brother was an agent -of the United States Government. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And are you able to fix the time of that discussion now -having been supplied with the date when your mother visited Washington? - -Mr. OSWALD. Approximately the spring of 1961. - -Mr. JENNER. Several months following her visit to Washington in -January, 1961. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Where did that discussion take place? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe this was a telephone conversation, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you call her or did she call you? - -Mr. OSWALD. She called me, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you recognized her voice, did you? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did. - -Mr. JENNER. What did she say on the subject? - -Mr. OSWALD. That she told me briefly about her trip to Washington, and -that she, as she put it, had seen various important people, and that -she was reaching or coming to the conclusion that Lee was an agent of -one sort or another for the United States Government. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you respond to that? - -Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall, sir, that I did; if so, what my response -might have been. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't recall whether you responded, and if you did, you -don't recall your response? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, have you given us now all your conversations you -had with your mother on the subject of whether your brother, that is -up to November 22, 1963, as to whether your brother was or might have -been an agent of the Government of the United States or an agent of any -other government including that of Russia? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. As you received these letters, particularly the series of -letters in 1961, up to the first of January, 1962, did there occur -to you the thought that your brother was or might be an agent of the -Russian Government? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it most certainly did not. - -Mr. JENNER. And at any time thereafter up to November 22, 1963? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it has not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any contact with the State Department or did -the State Department have any contact with you at any time while your -brother was in Russia? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, I believe the record will show there was a -previous telegram to Mr. Christian Herter who was Secretary of State at -the time. - -Mr. JENNER. Other than the telegram you testified about yesterday. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any conversations with your mother respecting -her contacts, if any, with the State Department during the period of -time your brother was in Russia? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you at any time prior to November 22, 1963, no, I will -include that date, let's say at any time prior to December 1, 1963, -have any view or suspicion that Marina Oswald was or might have been an -agent of the Russian Government? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. In the letter of July 14, 1961, being Commission Exhibit -301, your brother expresses or states, makes some derogatory comments -respecting Russia. Is that the first information or knowledge that you -had of any change of attitude on his part? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, it was not. - -Mr. JENNER. Indicate the prior event that gave you some suspicion in -that connection. - -Mr. OSWALD. If I understand it correctly, sir, whether or not had I had -any prior indication prior to receiving the letter of July 14, 1961, -that Lee was becoming---- - -Mr. JENNER. Disenchanted. - -Mr. OSWALD. Disenchanted with the Russian way of life? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. OSWALD. When I received his first letter from Russia after a year -or so of silence---- - -Mr. JENNER. Give the date of the letter. - -There is a break between December 17, 1959 and May 5, 1961. - -Is it the letter of May 5 of 1961? - -Mr. OSWALD. I am referring to the letter of May 5, 1961. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. It is Commission Exhibit 299. - -Mr. OSWALD. It indicated to me, whether it so states in there or not, -because he did start writing again that he was in fact disenchanted -with the Russian way of life. - -Mr. JENNER. This is the first letter you received after Lee had gone to -Minsk, is it not? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And it is the first letter you received following the -undated letter of, in December, 1959, but that you have noted was -received on the 17th of December, 1959. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it then the subsequent letters heightened your -impression of suspicion that he was becoming--either was completely or -was becoming, disenchanted with Russia. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, in his letter it certainly doesn't indicate that -he was, but it was my opinion at that time and still is that he was -then---- - -Mr. JENNER. After you had read that letter, meaning the letter of May -5, 1961, which is Commission Exhibit 299, you felt that, or you had the -reaction that, he was becoming disenchanted with Russia? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And that was later confirmed by subsequent letters in which -he expressly stated---- - -Mr. McKENZIE. Disenchantment. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. JENNER. There appears to be on some of the envelopes now in -evidence some stamps. They are in Russian but they may indicate that -they are stamps placed upon those envelopes by a censor, and we will -now undertake to investigate that circumstance. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Would you like for me to tell you which ones? - -Mr. JENNER. If you will give me the dates I will recite the exhibit -numbers. - -Mr. McKENZIE. It is June 26, 1961. - -Mr. JENNER. That is Commission Exhibit No. 300. - -Mr. McKENZIE. August 21, 1961. - -Mr. JENNER. Is the envelope dated August 21? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you see if that contains a one-page letter; oh, yes, -August 21, that is Commission Exhibit No. 303. - -You need not do it. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And September 10, 1961. - -Mr. JENNER. That is Commission Exhibit No. 305. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And I call the Commission's attention particularly to the -word stamped on the envelope "recommende" for whatever it means. - -Mr. DULLES. That is French. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you please relate, Mr. Oswald, Marina's ability to -speak or understand English at the time that she and your brother -returned from Russia in June of 1962? - -Mr. OSWALD. Her ability to understand was far less than her ability to -speak English words. I spoke to her on the telephone the night of June -13, 1962 from New York City, to my residence in Fort Worth, Tex., and -her statement to me at that time was, "Hello, Robert." I replied but no -answer, and Lee took the telephone over again. - -Mr. JENNER. During the month they lived in your home, were you better -able to form an opinion as to her ability to speak and understand -English? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe the best way to establish the degree of what she -understood in English at that time and her ability to speak the English -language would be very, very, very small, if anything at all. - -Mr. JENNER. As to her facility in that regard--did her facility in that -regard become better as the months and years wore on? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion which you overheard or with you, -respecting her undertaking to study, learn to speak, English? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she most certainly wanted to learn to speak -English at the time, and she was staying at my home in Fort Worth, -Tex., and prior to their departure from Fort Worth, Tex., to Dallas, -Tex., in the winter of 1962. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your brother's attitude with respect to her -desires in that respect? - -Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall him stating his desires in that respect -either pro or con. - -Mr. JENNER. You have no impressions on the subject either way? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I might have an impression, pardon me, that he -wanted her particularly at the time we were staying, they were staying -at my home in Fort Worth, Tex., to learn English. - -Mr. JENNER. That was expressed in your presence during that period of -time by him? - -Mr. OSWALD. Not in so many words, sir. It was perhaps implied, and he -left me with the impression that he wanted her to learn English at that -time or as soon as she possibly could, and I might add that on a number -of occasions during the visit at my home in Fort Worth, Tex., that -my daughter Cathy, with her childhood language in 1961, which would -establish her age at 4 years old, would talk to her and it appeared -that she would gather more English from Cathy than she would the adults -in the family. - -Mr. JENNER. Did the State Department or any agency of the United -States, get in touch with you with respect to your supplying funds or -the possibility of your supplying funds to your brother while he was -still in Russia for the purpose of financing his return to the United -States? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did any agency of the United States or any public body -located in New York City get in touch with you with respect to -supplying him funds for his transportation from New York City to Fort -Worth? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, they did. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that the initial request or knowledge to you that you -received that funds were necessary, or would be needed for that purpose? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the name of the agency? Was it the one that -you identified yesterday? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it was. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -In his letter of November 30, 1961, he makes a request for a football. - -Did you send the football to him? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. In the letter of December 14, 1961, which is Commission -Exhibit No. 311, he makes a reference to the fact that he had not -received any letter with "certain" questions. Apparently questions that -you had put to him. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have that letter? - -Mr. OSWALD. The letter of July 14? - -Mr. JENNER. No, this is December 14. - -Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me. - -Mr. JENNER. That is Commission Exhibit 311. It is two pages. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have the letter. - -Mr. JENNER. Does that refresh your recollection as to some letter you -had written him prior thereto? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Will you state what the letter was and whether it was in -response to an earlier letter? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, it was not in response--it was a response to an -earlier letter from Lee. I did in an effort to determine whether or not -all my letters---- - -Mr. JENNER. The last prior letter was the letter of November 30, 1961, -Commission Exhibit 308, and then immediately prior to that was the -letter of November 1, 1961, Commission Exhibit 309. - -Mr. OSWALD. In reference to the question regarding that letter of -December 14, 1961, at which time he stated "I did not receive any -letter with 'certain' questions." - -I did write him a letter at which time I recall raising two political -type questions to see whether or not he would receive---- - -Mr. JENNER. He would respond? - -Mr. OSWALD. Sir? - -Mr. JENNER. To see whether he would respond, did you say? - -Mr. OSWALD. To see whether or not he would receive the letter itself. - -Mr. JENNER. I am sorry, I thought you said to receive. - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir; if my memory serves me correct in some -earlier letters he refers there to some Russian censors he felt like -were censoring his mail and my mail also and I wanted to find out in my -own way whether this was so or not. - -I might say that was the only time I attempted to raise any type of -political questions in my response to any of his letters or any other -letters that I sent him, because I did want the letters to go through -rather than be destroyed or not received by him. - -Mr. JENNER. We can draw our own inference as to whether he received -your letter. - -Was there any discussion of the subject after return to the United -States, that is, the subject whether he had received your letter? - -Mr. OSWALD. Not to my recollection, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with your brother on the -subject of his undesirable discharge after he returned to the United -States? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. And when was that? Was it more than one occasion? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, only on one occasion did we discuss that -matter. - -Mr. JENNER. When was that? Where was it? - -Mr. OSWALD. Approximately June 1962 at my home in Fort Worth, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. Who was present? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe just Lee and I were present in this one room -which was the living room of our home. - -Mr. JENNER. In your home? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he say? - -Mr. OSWALD. He said he wanted to go down the next day to the Marine -Corps office in Fort Worth, Tex., and discuss with them and perhaps -find out what action he needed to take to have this corrected to an -honorable discharge. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you say? - -Mr. OSWALD. My reply to him on that was that I thought that that was -a good idea and that he might raise the question at the Marine Corps -office in Fort Worth, Tex., if I could be of some assistance in -writing the Marine Corps office directly on behalf of him. I do not -recall if he made this trip to the Marine Corps office. I do not recall -any further conversation in reference to his dishonorable discharge. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you turn your attention now to the letter of May 22, -1962, shortly before he returned to the United States? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 318. - -As I recall that letter, he refers to some things that you had said -when he departed for Russia. Do you find that portion of the letter? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you read it aloud, please, just that portion? - -Mr. McKENZIE. May I interrupt you at this point, Mr. Jenner? - -Please, Mr. Chairman. - -Mr. DULLES. Certainly, proceed. - -Mr. McKENZIE. The two letters of November 8 and November 26 which we -should make copies of for the purposes of the record, if you will pull -them out of your file there I will--do you want to take the originals? - -Mr. JENNER. That will be the best way of doing it. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Except that yours are already marked with the exhibit -number. I have no objection. - -I will find out who I should see about making these. - -Mr. JENNER. Why do you not make them on the Xerox machine? - -I had asked you to read that portion of the letter so we can place the -matter in context. - -Mr. OSWALD. "I know what was said about me when I left the United -States as Mother sent me clippings from the newspapers. However, I -realize it was just the shock of the news which made you say all those -things. However, I will just remind you again not to make any statement -or comments if you are approached by the newspapers between now and the -time we actually arrive in the United States." - -Mr. JENNER. Is he referring then to things that were reported in the -newspaper clippings that you said or is he referring to something -you said to him before he departed for Russia, or is he referring to -something you said in a letter you may have written him when he was in -Russia? - -Mr. OSWALD. He is referring, sir, to the clippings of newspapers -that mother had sent him containing reportedly my statements to the -newspapers at the time we were advised on October 31, 1959 that Lee was -in Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to make any comments to newspaper -reporters when it became known that he was about to return to the -United States? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. And did those come to your brother's attention? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss them or he with you? - -Mr. OSWALD. When the newspaper reporters contacted me prior to his -arrival in New York City, I did not divulge my knowledge of his -departure as per this letter of May 22, 1962, the approximate date -he would be in the United States. I did not give them any indication -whatsoever at that time that he was leaving the Soviet Union. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever respond to that particular letter? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. DULLES. May I ask a question here? - -You indicated that your brother was disappointed when he arrived at -Love Airfield and the newspapermen were not there when he came back -from Russia. - -Did the newspapermen thereafter talk with your brother at your house or -elsewhere? - -Mr. OSWALD. They attempted to, sir. I say "they." It was, more -specifically, one newspaperman. - -Mr. JENNER. But he did not succeed in getting an interview? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Reference is made in your brother's letter to you of -November 17, 1962, which is Commission Exhibit 320, to Thanksgiving -dinner. Would you obtain that exhibit, please? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have it. - -Mr. DULLES. What Thanksgiving, 1962? - -Mr. JENNER. 1962, sir. - -Was the Thanksgiving dinner held at your home on Thanksgiving Day, -November 1962? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us all of the circumstances preceding, -leading up to and what occurred on that date and who attended the -Thanksgiving dinner? - -Mr. OSWALD. Lee and Marina and their small child had moved to Dallas, -Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. Where in Dallas, Tex.? Do you recall? - -Mr. OSWALD. I did not have any address, sir. I had only a post office -box, Box 2915, Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. OSWALD. My older brother John had called me from San Antonio, Tex., -prior to Thanksgiving 1962, indicating that he was going to be able to -take a leave---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mr. Oswald. - -Mr. Chairman, there is some confusion respecting this Thanksgiving -dinner. - -Mr. OSWALD. Where John was stationed in the Air Force--he called me -from San Antonio stating that he would be able to take a leave during -the period of Thanksgiving of November 1962 and that they would travel -from San Antonio, Tex., to my home in Fort Worth, Tex. I wrote Lee and -asked him would it be possible for him to join us at that time with his -family. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you indicate in your letter that his brother John and -wife were to join you on that occasion? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you indicate that anyone in addition, to wit, your -mother, was also to join you on that occasion? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. OSWALD. In reference to the letter dated November 17, 1962, from -Lee Harvey Oswald---- - -Mr. JENNER. That is Commission Exhibit 320. - -Mr. OSWALD. It replied to my letter: "In answer to your kind -invitation for Thanksgiving, we love to come and will be in Fort Worth -Thanksgiving morning and we shall come by bus and give you a ring on -the phone from the bus station (about 9:10). See you soon. Lee." - -Mr. JENNER. Did he come to Fort Worth? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. For that particular occasion? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. When did he arrive? - -Mr. OSWALD. Approximately nine to ten o'clock in the morning. - -Mr. JENNER. Of Thanksgiving Day? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he accompanied by anyone? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he was. - -Mr. JENNER. Who? - -Mr. OSWALD. Marina N. Oswald and the baby June Lee Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. Did all of you have Thanksgiving dinner on that day? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we did. - -Mr. JENNER. Did both Lee and Marina attend that dinner? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they did. - -Mr. JENNER. And John Pic and his wife? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they did. - -Mr. JENNER. You and your wife? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Your children? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. The children of Lee and Marina? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McKENZIE. The child. There was only one at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. That is right, the child June. Anyone else? - -Mr. OSWALD. The children of John and Marge Pic. - -Mr. JENNER. But your mother did not attend the dinner? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you invited her? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not. - -Mr. JENNER. As far as you know, she was unaware of it? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Was any comment made that she was not present, about the -fact that she was not present at the dinner? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not. - -Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about what your brother Lee was doing by -way of employment in Dallas? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there was. - -Mr. JENNER. What was said, and by whom? - -Mr. OSWALD. I feel like I had asked Lee what he was doing at that -particular time, and his reply to me was that he was working for a -traffic outfit in Dallas, the name of which I do not recall. However, -he did state the name of the firm. I do not recall the name of the -firm. And that it was to him very interesting work. He thought that he -could perhaps learn this type of work and progress in it quite ably. - -Mr. DULLES. How did he appear to you mentally and physically on this -occasion of the Thanksgiving dinner? - -Mr. OSWALD. Very fit physically and very alert mentally. - -Mr. JENNER. Discussion on that day occurred between you and your -half-brother, John Pic, did it not, respecting your brother Lee's -un-American beliefs? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you relate that discussion between yourself--was it -confined to a discussion between yourself and John Pic? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you raise the subject? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe I did, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You were concerned about his un-American beliefs, were you -not? - -Mr. OSWALD. I was not concerned about them. I wanted to state to John, -since he had not been in contact with Lee when Lee was in Russia, or -when he was at my home in Fort Worth, that this conversation took place. - -Mr. JENNER. You state it. - -Mr. DULLES. Was John present? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. He was present. - -Mr. McKENZIE. It was to John. - -Mr. DULLES. Was he present? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was not. I was about to say that this -conversation took place on our way from my house to the bus station to -pick up Lee, Marina and June the morning of Thanksgiving 1962. I do -not recall the circumstances preceding this particular point of why I -brought it up other than I do recall mentioning that the FBI had talked -to Lee and apparently that everything was all right because they were -not proceeding to discuss with him at any length and they were not -holding him for any reason, so I assumed that everything was all right -in that respect. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Have you exhausted your present recollection of that conversation? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have. - -Mr. DULLES. How did you know that the FBI had talked with Lee? - -Mr. OSWALD. Lee had told me and I was aware that they had called my -house and requested Lee to come down to their office in Fort Worth and -talk with them. - -Mr. DULLES. Did he report to you on that conversation at all? The -details of it? - -Mr. OSWALD. A very small detail of it, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What details? - -Mr. OSWALD. I asked him when I returned home from work that afternoon -how did it go. He said, "Just fine." He said they asked him at the last -whether or not he was an agent for the United States Government. His -reply was "Don't you know?" - -Mr. JENNER. You recited that yesterday. - -Mr. McKENZIE. This was testified to yesterday. It is repetition. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you at that time say to John that the FBI had--excuse -me--had assured you that Lee was all right and not dangerous to our -country? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you say to John on that occasion or any other occasion -that he need not worry about Lee in connection with possible danger to -our country? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. When was that? - -Mr. OSWALD. This was on the same occasion on the trip to the bus -station as I have so indicated, that I had assumed, since they were not -holding Lee or questioning him to any frequency, because at that time -they had only questioned him to my knowledge one time, that everything -as far as un-American views that he expressed when he went to Russia, -everything was cleared and they had no reason to hold him or suspect -him of anything. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you know about the Fair Play for Cuba incident in New -Orleans at this time? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your brother Lee and Marina leave your home after -Thanksgiving dinner? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they did. - -Mr. JENNER. That same day? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to see your brother at any time from -that moment when he departed until sometime on the 22d of November 1963? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, may I interrupt you one more time? - -In response to your question, Mr. Chairman, it is my best recollection, -and I may be wrong and stand to be corrected if I am wrong, that the -Fair Play for Cuba or the pro-Castro leaflets that he was handing out -in New Orleans was in the summer of 1963. - -Mr. DULLES. I think you may be right. - -Do you remember that? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, that is correct. - -Mr. DULLES. That is correct. It had not taken place. - -Mr. McKENZIE. It had not taken place in November of 1962. - -Mr. DULLES. Right. - -Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of our knowledge. - -Mr. JENNER. Did the witness have any opportunity to respond to my last -question? - -Mr. McKENZIE. You had finished your question and I interrupted you -before you could make another question. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean the witness had responded to it? - -Mr. DULLES. No; I do not think he had. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you read the pending question? - -(The last question was read by the reporter.) - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see Marina at any time subsequent to their -departure on Thanksgiving Day, November 1962 and November 22, 1963? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you have any telephone conversations with either of -them? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had. - -Mr. JENNER. In the interim period? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had. - -Mr. JENNER. Were there a number of those or were they infrequent? - -Mr. OSWALD. I recall only one, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. When did that take place? - -Mr. OSWALD. Approximately two or three weeks after Thanksgiving of 1962. - -Mr. JENNER. That would be sometime then in December of 1962? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you call him or did he call you? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he called me. - -Mr. JENNER. You recognized his voice? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And was it day or night? - -Mr. OSWALD. It was, I believe it was Sunday afternoon, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Sunday afternoon. And what was the occasion of his making -that call as you recall it? - -Mr. OSWALD. That he was in town briefly. - -Mr. JENNER. In Fort Worth? - -Mr. OSWALD. In Fort Worth, Tex., and that I asked would we see him; he -said no, they were visiting some friends. - -Mr. JENNER. "They" meaning he and Marina? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, and that they would be leaving for Dallas very -shortly. - -Mr. JENNER. That was a social call? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You have given the full of the conversation? - -Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my remembrance; yes, sir. It was very short. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to talk to Marina over the telephone -on that particular time? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he talk with any other member of your family on that -occasion? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Other than that telephone conversation, had you had any -other conversation with your brother Lee from the time on Thanksgiving -Day, November 1962 to the time you saw him on November 22, 1963? - -Mr. OSWALD. I did not see him on November---- - -Mr. McKENZIE. He did not see him on that day. - -Mr. OSWALD. On November 22, 1963. - -Mr. McKENZIE. He saw him on November 23, 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. Then my question is November 23. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not had any conversation with him after -November 1962, Thanksgiving Day, other than the one I have mentioned, -up to the time of November 22, 1963. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you make any attempts to get in touch with him in that -period? - -Mr. OSWALD. Only through the mail, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I was about to come to that. - -Did you have any correspondence with him in the sense of your -dispatching a letter or note or he dispatching one to you? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you retain the correspondence insofar as anything you -received from him is concerned? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And that has previously been furnished to the Commission. - -Mr. JENNER. It has previously been furnished and it is, I see, a -postcard which is dated as I recall--you give the date. - -Mr. OSWALD. We are still referring to the period after November 1962, -Thanksgiving Day? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, we are. - -Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. - -One postcard dated January 10, 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. And that is Commission Exhibit 324. - -Did you receive any other correspondence? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. And do you have it there? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. And it is a letter dated? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What date? - -Mr. OSWALD. March 16, 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. And that is Commission Exhibit 322. - -Did you receive any other correspondence from him? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you dispatch any to him? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had. - -Mr. JENNER. Did they have any relation to either of the exhibits you -have now identified? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they did not. - -Mr. JENNER. That is, neither Exhibit 322 nor Exhibit 324 was in -response to any communication that you had dispatched to him? - -Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, sir, I was incorrect on that. - -The letter of March 16, 1963 was in response to a letter I had written -him approximately the first week of March 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you retain a copy of the letter you sent him? And if -you made one, did you retain a copy? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; no copy was made and I did not retain it. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you state the contents of your letter? - -Mr. OSWALD. It was, briefly, sir, that we had moved to Malvern, Ark. -I informed him of my new address and advised him that I had placed -my home in Fort Worth, Tex., up for sale, and I had been given an -opportunity by the company for a better and higher position, and that I -had taken this opportunity and moved to Malvern, Ark. and requested, if -possible, we would like to have them visit us. - -Mr. DULLES. When did you move to Malvern, approximately? - -Mr. OSWALD. The fifth day of March 1963, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. And how long were you there? - -Mr. OSWALD. To September 13, 1963, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. And then you returned to---- - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. Then I moved to Denton, Tex. - -Mr. DULLES. Denton, Tex.? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. So that at the time of the event, November 22, 1963, you -were residing in Malvern, Tex.? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was residing in Denton, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. I should have said Malvern, Ark., anyhow. - -Mr. DULLES. Let's see, you were then in Malvern, Ark., from March 1963, -to approximately September 1963? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. That is where I misunderstood. I thought he said December. - -All right, sir. I take it then at least from Thanksgiving Day, 1962, -and the 23d day of November, 1963, you never had any discussions with -Robert with respect to his desire, if any, to return to Russia, with -Lee rather? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussion with him on that subject? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussion with him or he with you or -with Marina or she with you on her return to Russia, whether he desired -it or she did? - -Mr. OSWALD. During that period? - -Mr. JENNER. Prior to November 23, 1963. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. When did that discussion that you now have in mind take -place? - -Mr. OSWALD. At my home in June of 1962, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Who was present? - -Mr. OSWALD. My wife Vada and Lee. - -Mr. JENNER. With Marina I take it? - -Mr. OSWALD. And Marina was there. - -Yes, sir; I was having a conversation or she was having something of a -conversation with me. - -Mr. JENNER. Before you give the conversation, was there ever any -other occasion up to and including November 23, 1963 when you had a -discussion with your brother or with Marina respecting the return of -either of them to Russia? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I only recall this one occasion. - -Mr. JENNER. State what was said, please, and by whom. - -Mr. OSWALD. This was said by Marina Oswald in June of 1962 in very -broken English: "I never want to go to Russia again." - -Mr. JENNER. Return to Russia? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And that was said in the presence of your brother Lee, your -presence and your wife's presence? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I feel certain that all four of us were present. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your brother say anything on that occasion? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. As to that subject matter? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. This took place in your home? How long after they had -returned from Russia did this conversation take place? - -Mr. McKENZIE. What was that question? - -Mr. OSWALD. I would say 1 or 2 weeks. - -Mr. JENNER. One or two weeks after they had returned from Russia? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. That is when they were staying with you after their return? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. At any time prior to November 23, 1962, were you aware or -did any incident arise or conversation take place indicating any desire -on your brother Lee's part to go to Cuba? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Or to Mexico? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Or any other country than the United States? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not. - -Mr. DULLES. Was there any particular reason why you did not have some -contact with Lee during the period November, Thanksgiving 1962, and -your departure for Arkansas in March of 1963? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; none that I was aware of. I did write him on two -or three occasions asking him to advise me of his address in Dallas, -Tex., so when I had an opportunity either on business or otherwise -passing through where I could possibly stop and see him, if not Marina -and the child. - -His response to this was as it is stated in the letter of March 17, -1963, that generally he was moving and it was not settled and he would -always retain the post office box in Dallas, Tex., where I might reach -him through the mail and that I would not be able to see him or his -family when I came through town. - -Mr. DULLES. Did that surprise you? - -Mr. OSWALD. It did not at first, sir, because I realized he was not -settled as to a stable job and to an apartment. However, it did concern -me later, and I refer to my letter that I wrote him in March of 1963 -which he replied to on March 17 or March 16, 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. Which is Commission Exhibit 322. - -Mr. OSWALD. That I would like to have an address other than a post -office box, and when again he did not furnish me this information, I -did not respond to his letter of March 17, 1963. The last time I wrote -him was in September 1963 when I returned to Texas and our moving -into Denton, Tex., advising him of my new address, and still at that -time requesting again an address where they were staying at in Dallas -so that I might contact him, since again we were close together, -approximately 30 miles away. - -Mr. JENNER. And he did not respond to that? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he never responded to that letter that I wrote him -in September other than on the day that I visited him at Dallas County -Jail or Dallas City Jail on November 23, 1963, he did say before I had -an opportunity to say anything to him, "Robert, you now are living in -Denton, aren't you?" And I said yes. - -In other words, he had received my letter of September 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. This was elicited by Mr. Dulles' question, his failure to -advise you in due course eventually here as late as September 1963 of -his location in Dallas aroused some suspicions, doubts or a question in -your mind? - -Mr. OSWALD. It did to this extent, that I thought perhaps---- - -Mr. JENNER. Keep in mind all this history also, Mr. Oswald. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That you testified about. - -Mr. OSWALD. That perhaps he was angry at us or did not want to have -anything to do with us. However, it was also my thinking on this that -this would be out of character for him because he normally would -keep in contact with me and let me have his address and so forth, -even though he had furnished a post office box at first and which I -understood, but his failure to give me an address indicated---- - -Mr. JENNER. Despite your at least two requests? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Or three requests? - -Mr. OSWALD. Indicated to me that perhaps something of a different -nature was going on that I was not aware of, whether he was having -trouble with Marina and perhaps the baby, and they were not getting -along and he did not want me to become aware of this situation; this -would be my only speculation on that, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Did your wife have any contact with Marina over this period -we are discussing from Thanksgiving of 1962 to November 1963? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she ever indicate to you that she made any effort to -effect a contact with Marina? - -Mr. OSWALD. Did my wife? - -No, sir; she did not. - -Mr. JENNER. In the light, Mr. Oswald, of the fact that your brother, -as you testified, you thought looked up to you in his youth at -least, in the light of his departure for Russia, in the light of the -correspondence that you had with him in Russia about which you have -testified, in the light of the conversations that you had with him upon -his return, did not the fact that you did not hear from him for as -long a period as from Thanksgiving Day of 1962 to well into the fall -of 1963 raise any question in your mind beyond that which you have now -testified about? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That it might be something other than possible marital -difficulties? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Of course, I refer to the postcard of January 10, 1963, and the letter -of March 17, 1963, which I would state other than the fact that he did -not advise me of his residence in Dallas, Tex.---- - -Mr. JENNER. Despite the fact that you requested it? - -Mr. OSWALD. Right, that the infrequency of the mail at this time was -going back to prior to the time that he was in Russia, to the extent -that he was not writing frequently then when he was in the service -and so forth, and then again I thought that he was returning to this, -because I was also not writing him as frequently as we had while he was -in Russia. And it is my opinion, sir, that Lee felt that he had caused -me enough difficulty, that he did not want to in any way, even though I -had offered my assistance after his return from Russia, in any way that -I possibly could, that he did not want to burden me in case he was in -any financial difficulty or any other difficulty. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, thank you. - -I am going to attempt to cover in general terms, Mr. Chairman, -Representative Ford's questions and see if I can shorten up the -examination in that respect. - -Mr. DULLES. Could I have just a word with you for just a moment. - -(Short recess.) - -Mr. JENNER. You are acquainted at least by hearsay at the moment, are -you not, with respect to an alleged attack having been made by your -brother upon General Walker? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am. - -Mr. JENNER. It is that to which I wish to direct a question. - -Did you have any knowledge or information of any kind or character at -any time prior to November 24, 1963, of that incident? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. No one had spoken to you about it? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they had not. - -Mr. JENNER. When did it first come to your attention? - -Mr. OSWALD. In the newspaper. I believe this to be sometime in the -latter part of December 1963 or January 1964. - -Mr. JENNER. It was subsequent to your brother's death? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you had no information direct or indirect of any kind -or character, scuttlebutt, hearsay or otherwise, up to that moment? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you know of any acts of violence that your brother had -carried out or had contemplated or attempted during his life other than -school boy antics? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not. I have never known him to attempt or -indicate to attempt to carry out any type of violence other than a -schoolboy---- - -Mr. JENNER. Was he given to tantrums? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was not. - -Mr. DULLES. Did he ever seem to you to be a man who repressed himself, -that he was boiling inside and that there were a great many emotions -that he had that he was holding in? Did you get that impression from -your knowledge of him? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I would say that Lee's character was -that he was more of a listener than a talker, not to the extent of -being an introvert. I do not believe he was an introvert. - -Mr. JENNER. I was about to ask you that question. There have been -people who have been interviewed, teachers and others, a good many -of them as a matter of fact, who have described your brother as an -introvert. Your mother used the expression that he was a loner in a -statement that she made to the authorities in New York City, and I -think on this record. - -Was he in your opinion, gathered from your actual experience with -him during his lifetime, a loner, that is, a person who would tend -to prefer to be by himself and not seek out friends, not necessarily -repulse friends but not affirmatively seek them out? - -Mr. OSWALD. I would say yes and no, sir, to that question if I may. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Would you expand then and explain your answer yes and no? - -Mr. OSWALD. I feel like in the late 1940s to about the time of my -departure to the service in July of 1952, that he did seek out friends, -and that he did have friends. However, after my release from the -service in 1955, I do believe that he had become more grown to himself. - -Mr. JENNER. That is during the interim he had become, while you were -away? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You noticed a change in him when you returned from the -service? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that what you mean to say? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, proceed and describe that to us. - -Mr. OSWALD. Still my contact with him was limited, but he did appear to -be drawn within himself more than he had been prior, and I do not know -of any friends that he had at that particular time. - -One factor of course would be that he had moved quite frequently or a -number of times during this period. - -Mr. JENNER. Apart from the reason, for the moment, I seek to draw from -you your personal reaction as to whether he had become more retiring -and that you had actually noticed that difference in him? - -Mr. OSWALD. Well, to me, sir, he had become or appeared to become more -drawn into himself to the extent that I noticed that he wanted to read -more, and of course when he wanted to read he wanted to be by himself. -However, to me personally at that time when we were together, if he did -not wish to read, he seemed and appeared to be as he was prior to 1952, -sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did that state of mind or his action, did you notice that -that persisted when he returned from Russia? - -Was he still of that retiring nature? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was not. I felt that he was more of a -gregarious type person that wanted to mix with people and wanted to -talk to people. - -Mr. JENNER. After he left your home and took residence with your mother -and thereafter in various places in Fort Worth, did he seek you out? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. He called me on a number of occasions at my -office. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he come by your home and visit you voluntarily without -invitation? - -Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall of any time, sir. I usually was talking to -him on the telephone quite frequently during the period that he had -moved out of my mother's apartment into their own duplex, to the extent -that I always told him that if he would like to come out any time just -to give me a ring and I would gladly pick them up and bring them out to -the house and return them to their home. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he do so? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. - -Mr. DULLES. There has been some testimony here before the Commission -to the general effect that in the latter period he broke pretty much -away with some of the Russian group of friends in Dallas that Marina -had developed or liked to be with, and that is because she could talk -Russian. Did you see anything of that, and can you throw any further -light on that? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I was aware or had become aware of this -group or some other group of the Russian-speaking population in Dallas, -and I was aware of Mr. Gregory in Fort Worth, Tex., who had come to -my house before Lee and Marina had moved out, to speak in the Russian -language to Marina and to Lee. I was not aware that--I was aware that -he was talking with and becoming acquainted with this group of persons, -and I was not aware of the fact that he was withdrawing from this group -of people. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you know anything about his relations with a certain -man named De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Is the name familiar to you? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it is not. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Dulles, who is the Chairman of the session today, -has asked Mr. Oswald if he knows or has heard of a man by the name of -De Mohrenschildt. Robert Oswald's answer I believe is reflected on -the record that he did not know Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I have stated -off the record to Mr. Dulles and to Mr. Jenner that I know George De -Mohrenschildt. - -I became acquainted with George De Mohrenschildt in this manner. -Shortly after the law was passed in Texas that we could have women -jurors---- - -Mr. JENNER. Could you fix that time? - -Mr. McKENZIE. No, I cannot, but it has been within the last five years. -I would say. But shortly after the law was passed that we could have -women jurors sitting in our courts, my wife happened to be on a jury -in Dallas, Texas, in one of our district courts. Sitting on that same -jury with my wife, Sally McKenzie was a man by the name of George De -Mohrenschildt. As a result of her jury experience in the trial of this -case, in which he was a juror, I met George De Mohrenschildt. I have -since come to know him briefly, and in no way intimately. - -George De Mohrenschildt at one time was married to a lady from -Pennsylvania by the name of Wynne Sharples. They were subsequently -divorced in Dallas. Wynne Sharples is an M.D. by profession. She comes -from a well-known Pennsylvania family, and her father has been engaged -in the oil business under the name of Sharples Oil Company. - -Wynne Sharples, following her divorce from George De Mohrenschildt, -remarried and married another M.D. - -Mr. JENNER. What is her married name? - -Mr. McKENZIE. I do not recall her married name, but I do believe that -she and her then husband, and I presume her present husband, the doctor -that she married, were engaged in medical research at some hospital -in Philadelphia or Baltimore, looking to the cause and a cure of a -children's ailment of a very serious nature, and I believe it was -connected with some blood type ailment. - -Mr. JENNER. Leukemia? - -Mr. McKENZIE. No, it was not leukemia. There was an article on Wynne -Sharples in one of the magazine supplements of either the Dallas -Times-Herald or the Dallas Morning News, within the past five years. - -George De Mohrenschildt has subsequently remarried, and some -time within the past two years there was an article on George De -Mohrenschildt in one of the Dallas daily newspapers, telling of a trip -that he and his new bride were going to take through Mexico and Central -America walking. In other words, they were going to walk from Dallas -or the Mexican-United States border through Mexico and through Central -America. It is my understanding that such a trip was taken, and that -George De Mohrenschildt has since that time returned to Dallas, Tex. In -fact, I have seen him in Dallas, Tex., within the past 7 months. - -I do not know of any relationship between George De Mohrenschildt and -Marina Oswald or Lee Harvey Oswald, nor have I ever heard of any. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you describe George De Mohrenschildt physically, his -physical appearance, the one you have in mind? - -Mr. McKENZIE. The man that I know is a large man, approximately six -foot one to three inches. He would probably weigh 205 to maybe 215 -pounds. - -Mr. JENNER. Age? - -Mr. McKENZIE. He appears to be between 45 and 50 or 51 or 52. He has -got a dark complexion, and I would say a typically foreign expression -or foreign look to him, from the standpoint of being either a Russian -or of the Slavic races. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you ever spoken with him, to give us your impression -of whether he has a foreign inflection in his speech? - -Mr. McKENZIE. He does have a foreign inflection in his speech, and I -have heard, I do not know this to be true, but I have heard that Mr. De -Mohrenschildt has quite a way with the ladies. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, thanks. - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, I have asked you about the Nixon and General -Walker incidents. Did you at any time prior to November 23, 1963, have -drawn to your attention any incident of any kind or character of action -on the part of your brother Lee similar to those which have been raised -as to General Walker and Richard Nixon? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not. - -Mr. JENNER. You have seen pictures of, and you have heard about, the -rifle which was allegedly employed by the assassin of President Kennedy -in that assassination? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have seen pictures of it? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you at any time prior to November 23, 1963, ever see -the rifle which is alleged to have been employed in the assassination -of President Kennedy? - -Mr. OSWALD. I have not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see at your home or any place a rifle of that -character in the possession of your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see any rifle of that character in or about -any premises that he might or was occupying or that Marina was -occupying? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not. I might further state I never knew him -to own but one firearm in his entire life, and that was a .22 caliber -rifle that he purchased from New Orleans, La., and on my visit to New -Orleans, La., in 1955 on my discharge from the service, I purchased -this from Lee for a total of $10. He had given approximately $16 for -the rifle. It would not fire. And I gave him $10 for it, and took it -back to Fort Worth and worked on it and put it into working condition. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion, did any discussion take place -between you and Lee, or in your presence, other than that which you -have testified heretofore up to this moment, of his use of a firearm, -be it a pistol or a rifle, during the period from June 1962 to, and -including, the 23d of November, 1963? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I had not. - -Mr. JENNER. Nothing of that character occurred between you or in your -presence and his presence during all of that period of time? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. I might say what they were saying -at my home in Fort Worth, Tex., on Davenport Street during the first -week, Lee and I were discussing hunting and so forth out at my in-laws' -farm, I did produce at that time all weapons in my possession in front -of Marina and Lee. They made Marina Oswald nervous, and shortly after -looking at my weapons, I returned them to their proper place, and -that was the only time that I have ever seen him handle a weapon from -the time that he returned from Russia in 1962 until the reports of -present-day activities along that line that he handled a weapon. - -Mr. JENNER. Just to nail down this subject, I take it then that at -no time from the time of his return in June of 1962 to the United -States to and including November 23, 1962, did you ever see him in the -possession of a firearm of any kind or character? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. If I may, sir, referring to the hunting -trip that we did take at the farm in June of 1962---- - -Mr. JENNER. Other than that to which you have already testified? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct, at no time. - -Mr. JENNER. And you had that in mind when you answered my question in -the negative? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I was excluding your prior testimony. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Thank you. - -Mr. JENNER. Apart from newspaper photographs, have you ever to your -knowledge seen Jack Ruby on television? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not. - -Mr. JENNER. Or a person said to be Jack Ruby? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Use his full name. - -Mr. JENNER. Jack Rubenstein. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been in any establishment allegedly operated -by him or in which he has an interest, to your knowledge? - -Mr. OSWALD. Would you mind, sir, giving me the names of those -establishments? - -Mr. JENNER. I will do that from other papers later on, but to your -present knowledge, without refreshing or stimulating your recollection, -could you give me an answer? - -Mr. OSWALD. I have not, sir. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Now would you go on and ask him, or would you prefer -to---- - -Mr. JENNER. Would you mind waiting? I am just taking care of -Representative Ford's questions at the moment. - -Your mother testified that an FBI agent had shown her a picture of -some man on the evening of Saturday, November 23, 1963. She testified -further that later, after your brother had been killed, she saw -a picture of Jack Ruby or Jack Rubenstein alias Jack Ruby in the -newspaper, and that she exclaimed in your presence that Ruby was the -man whose picture had been shown to her on a Saturday night, November -23, 1963, by an agent of the FBI. Does that refresh your recollection? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And did that take place? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it did. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you please testify or tell us of where that took -place, who was present and what the circumstances were? - -Mr. OSWALD. That took place at the Inn of the Six Flags in Arlington, -Tex., during the week of November 25, 1963, in the presence I believe -of two or more Secret Service agents, and perhaps an Arlington police -officer in the rooms that were assigned at the Inn of the Six Flags, -and I feel like at least one of the Secret Service agents that was -present---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir, you used the expression "and I feel like". -Do you mean you are speculating? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe, is that a better expression, sir? - -Mr. JENNER. Go ahead, and then I will ask you on what basis you base -that belief. - -Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. I believe that the Secret Service agents, -at least one of them was Mr. Mike Howard. - -Mr. JENNER. That is your best recollection? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That is what you mean by believe? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. OSWALD. I testify it was either two or three Secret Service agents -present, and my best recollection, another Secret Service agent would -be Mr. Charles I. Kunkel, and if my recollection serves me correctly, -there was an Arlington police officer at the time. It would be either -Mr. Bob Parsons or Mr. Jeff Gan. - -Mr. JENNER. These were the persons present on this occasion? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe this to be. - -Mr. JENNER. And what occurred and what was said? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe, to my best recollection, mother was in another -room and she had received a copy of a newspaper which I cannot -identify, that reportedly had a picture of Mr. Rubenstein or Mr. Jack -Ruby, and mother exclaimed to me---- - -Mr. JENNER. Did she come into the room in which you gentlemen were? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did. - -Mr. JENNER. And she had the newspaper in her possession? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did. - -Mr. JENNER. And she walked among you and said something? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she exhibit anything? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did. - -Mr. JENNER. What did she exhibit? - -Mr. OSWALD. A picture that I could recognize as a picture now of a man -known as Jack Ruby. - -Mr. JENNER. That was a picture in the newspaper? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, proceed. - -Mr. OSWALD. And she stated to me---- - -Mr. JENNER. In the presence of the others? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that on Saturday night, November 23, 1963, that -two FBI agents had gone to the Executive Inn in Dallas, to the rooms -where mother and Marina and Baby June Lee Oswald were staying, and that -at this particular time Marina was taking a bath or a shower, mother -had just completed hers, she was in a robe, she did not open the door -fully, that one of the FBI agents produced a picture that she stated -was Mr. Jack Ruby, and that was the text of it. - -Mr. DULLES. You did not see the picture that was shown by the Secret -Service man? - -Mr. OSWALD. The FBI man? - -Mr. DULLES. The FBI man. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. I was not there. - -Mr. JENNER. Assuming it was shown, it was not exhibited to you. Your -mother stated that a picture of Mr. Jack Ruby had been exhibited to her -by an FBI man. - -Mr. OSWALD. That a picture that an FBI man---- - -Mr. JENNER. On the Saturday night, November 23, 1963. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that the FBI man exhibited a picture, and mother -said that she recognized from the newspaper to be Mr. Jack Ruby. - -Mr. JENNER. Did any of the gentlemen present say anything when your -mother made that statement? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe they did, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Give us your best recollection of what was said, -and if you can identify the person, do so, but in any event tell us -what was said, if you can identify them only by stating he was a police -officer or a Secret Service man or an FBI agent, then do that. - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe Mr. Mike Howard of the United States Secret -Service looked at the picture in the newspaper and said something to -mother in the line or in the nature of "Are you sure" and so forth like -that. It was very brief, and she was saying that she was positive. - -Mr. JENNER. She responded that she was certain of it? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that she was certain that the photograph shown to -her on Saturday night, November 23, 1963, was the man in the picture -being identified as Mr. Jack Ruby, the killer of my brother, Lee Harvey -Oswald. - -Mr. DULLES. Did she say anything about what the officer who had shown -her this photograph had said to her, or explained why he was showing -that picture? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, she did indicate that they wanted to show -it to Marina for identification, and mother explained to him that she -was in the shower and was fixing to go to bed, and they were very tired. - -Mr. JENNER. Now would you give us please your opinion and judgment as -to the stability of your mother? - -Mr. OSWALD. Prior to November 22, 1963----correction, prior to November -24, 1963, I believed her to be a stable average person. However, -during the week of November 24, including the date of November 24, -1963, through Friday of that week, which was November 29, 1963, due to -the happenings and the events that had ensued from the November 22d -afternoon through Sunday of November 23d, it is my opinion that at -first that her reactions were quite normal, and to be expected. - -However, it is my opinion during the latter part of that week, from -approximately Wednesday, November 27, 1963, that her reactions to other -matters related to the events of November 22 and November 24, 1963, -were abnormal reactions. - -Mr. JENNER. Did those normal or abnormal reactions continue to the best -of your knowledge thereafter? - -Mr. OSWALD. Since I have not seen her, sir, since Friday November 29, -1963, I have talked with her on telephone calls only, I have no opinion -on that at this time. - -Mr. JENNER. One way or the other? - -Mr. OSWALD. One way or the other. - -Mr. JENNER. Whether continued or not continued? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes. - -Mr. JENNER. You have testified that you thought you had an influence on -Lee's joining the Marines. That is an influence of an example rather -than a direct influence, that is any direct contact by you suggesting -that if he entered the service he should enter the Marines? - -Mr. OSWALD. That would be correct, sir. It would be as an example. - -Mr. JENNER. You mentioned a Mr. Gregory having visited at your home. -Will you identify him, please? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe his given name, sir, is Mr. Peter Gregory, but I -am confused a little bit about his son. His son's name is Paul Gregory, -or vice versa. - -Mr. JENNER. It is Peter. - -Mr. OSWALD. Thank you. Mr. Peter Gregory came to my residence in Fort -Worth, Tex. on 7313 Davenport Street. - -Mr. JENNER. Approximately when, please? - -Mr. OSWALD. Two occasions, the first occasion being approximately the -last week in June, 1962. - -Mr. JENNER. What was that occasion? - -Mr. OSWALD. He had come over to see Lee and meet Marina and talk with -them in his native Russian language. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he accompanied by anyone? - -Mr. OSWALD. Not on this first occasion, sir, if my memory serves me -correctly. I believe he was by himself. - -Mr. JENNER. Was anything said in your presence that you understood, -having in mind that he spoke Russian at least in part of that occasion, -as to how he became aware that Lee and Marina were residing with you -temporarily? - -Mr. OSWALD. We were expecting Mr. Gregory to come by that night. The -preceding 2 or 3 days, I understood from Lee, that when he inquired at -one of the bureaus of the Texas employment agencies in Fort Worth, that -someone that he had talked to about a job had set up an appointment -with Lee to go see Mr. Gregory, since Lee could speak Russian and write -the Russian language, they thought perhaps Mr. Gregory might know of -some contact that he could place Lee with, where Lee might obtain a job -speaking and writing the Russian language. I understood from Lee---- - -Mr. JENNER. That is the result of discussions in your presence in your -home? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. By Lee and Marina? - -Mr. OSWALD. By Lee to me. - -Mr. JENNER. Lee to you? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And I understood that---- - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, if you could, if it is the result of Lee having -told you, would you please state it in those terms rather than that you -understood, because your understanding may be based on hearsay that is -not the fact. - -Mr. OSWALD. Lee in our conversation told me that he went to Mr. -Gregory's office on the first occasion to meet Mr. Gregory. - -Mr. JENNER. And that would be before this last week in June when Mr. -Gregory visited your home? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. What is Mr. Gregory's profession, do you happen to know? - -Mr. OSWALD. He was a consultant geologist. On this first occasion that -Lee spent 1 or 2 hours talking with Mr. Gregory, and at the end of this -occasion, Mr. Gregory gave Lee a letter to the effect, which I did -read---- - -Mr. JENNER. Did your brother Lee exhibit this letter to you? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he did. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you seen the letter from the time that you read it to -the present time? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not. - -Mr. JENNER. And as far as you know the letter doesn't exist. You don't -know whether it exists? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you please recite the content of it as you now recall -it? - -Mr. OSWALD. That it stated that Lee Harvey Oswald was competent to -speak and write the Russian language fluently. That is my general -remembrance of this letter. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it signed? Did it have a signature? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it did. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it on a letterhead? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe it was, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Was Mr. Gregory a Russian by origin as far as you know? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he was. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your brother tell you that? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he did. - -Mr. DULLES. Was he a naturalized American, or don't you know? - -Mr. OSWALD. This I do not know, sir. But during this conversation, he -told me about Mr. Gregory to the extent that he had come from Russia -approximately---- - -Mr. DULLES. This is your brother now? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, talking to me. Approximately 40 years prior to -that time. - -Mr. JENNER. So he had been in this country for approximately 40 years? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. It was not long after that conversation in which your -brother Lee reported these things to you that Mr. Gregory visited at -your home the last week in June of 1962, is that correct? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, approximately the last week in June 1962. - -Mr. DULLES. Did your brother tell you where he had gotten to know Mr. -Gregory? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he had. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you please relate that? - -Mr. OSWALD. Through the lady at the Texas employment agency. - -Mr. JENNER. He had gone to the Texas employment agency and had an -interview with that lady? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. In charge of the agency? - -Mr. OSWALD. One of the personnel working within the agency. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your brother say to you that she had suggested Mr. -Gregory as a possible source? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. With regard to employment? - -Mr. OSWALD. That she had volunteered to call Mr. Gregory on his behalf -to set up an appointment where Lee could go by and see him and talk -with him in relation to employment. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your brother indicate that that was his first -acquaintance or knowledge of the fact that a person named Peter Gregory -existed? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did. - -Mr. JENNER. And he said that to you affirmatively? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. In the course of that conversation, did your brother -report to you any recommendations by the lady in charge of the agency -with respect to his contacting any other persons who were of Russian -derivation or who could or might speak Russian and be of possible -assistance to your brother in obtaining employment? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he did not. - -Mr. JENNER. The conversation was confined to a Mr. Peter Gregory? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And have you now given us all you can recall as to that -conversation? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have. - -Mr. JENNER. And Mr. Gregory visited your home the last week in June or -at least approximately then? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. He came alone to the best of your recollection? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And it was a visit, intended as a visit with Lee and Marina -primarily? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You were present when he came to your home? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I was. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he exhibit any acquaintance, prior acquaintance with -Lee or with Marina? - -Mr. OSWALD. He certainly recognized Lee. He did not recognize Marina. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he introduced to her? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, he was. - -Mr. JENNER. On that occasion? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he was. - -Mr. JENNER. In your presence? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And it is your impression that he was not acquainted with -her prior to that time? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Or she with him? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question here. Do you know of any other -close friends of Lee's? - -Mr. OSWALD. At that time, sir, I was not aware of any others. - -Mr. DULLES. The Fords you met later, I believe, did you not? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. - -Mr. DULLES. And are they Russian or is one of them Russian? - -Mr. OSWALD. His wife is originally from Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. How did you discover that, Mr. Oswald? - -Mr. OSWALD. That Mrs. Ford was Russian? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe Marina told me. - -Mr. JENNER. Representative Ford has asked that that subject be inquired -into also, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Won't you pursue it then if you wish, in whatever way? - -Mr. JENNER. Would you relate to us to the best of your recollection the -names of Lee's friends or associates from his return to this country in -June 1962 up to and including November 22, 1963? - -Mr. OSWALD. The only ones I was aware of, sir, other than members of -the family, was Mr. Peter Gregory and his son, Paul Gregory. - -Mr. JENNER. May I stop you at that moment. You say his son Paul -Gregory. Did you come to meet Paul Gregory as well as Peter? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. On some occasion subsequent to this last week in June of -'62? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you known that there was a Paul Gregory at the time -Peter Gregory visited your home in June of '62? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. He might possibly have mentioned his son at that -time, but I do not recall that he did. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't have any specific recollection of it? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you meet Paul Gregory? - -Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 2 or 3 days later. - -Mr. JENNER. Under what circumstances? - -Mr. OSWALD. Mr. Peter Gregory and Mr. Paul Gregory both came to the -house. - -Mr. JENNER. And this is the second occasion of Mr. Gregory being in -your home, to which you have already alluded? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And what was the purpose of their visit at your house on -that occasion? - -Mr. OSWALD. To meet with Lee and Marina again, and to the best of -my remembrance, for his son, Paul Gregory, who was attending either -the University of Oklahoma or Oklahoma University, or Oklahoma State -University, at which he was studying the Russian language. - -And I believe at this time he stated he was a junior at the university, -and that he wanted to be around others who spoke the Russian language, -besides his father, to improve his language, or his knowledge of the -Russian language. - -Mr. JENNER. Was that stated in your presence? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it was. - -Mr. JENNER. In this case, you now identified? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. By Paul Gregory? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he attempt to converse, or converse with Lee, and/or -with Marina in Russian on that occasion? - -Mr. OSWALD. He did with both. - -Mr. JENNER. And on both occasions did Peter Gregory confer or talk with -Lee and Marina or either of them or both of them in Russian? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, they did. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you forewarned or did you have notice that the -Gregorys, Paul and Peter, were to visit you on the second occasion? - -Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall any conversation you had with your brother in -advance of that visit, or with Marina on that subject? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not recall any. - -Mr. JENNER. Are those the only two occasions that you ever saw or -talked with Peter Gregory? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, it was not. - -Mr. JENNER. When subsequent to the second visit to your home, the first -time subsequent thereto, did you see or speak with Peter Gregory? - -Mr. OSWALD. I spoke again with Mr. Peter Gregory on Sunday morning, -November 24, 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. So it was an occasion subsequent to the death of President -Kennedy? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Where did that take place? - -Mr. OSWALD. At Howard Johnson's Restaurant on the turnpike between Fort -Worth and Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. How did that come about? - -Mr. OSWALD. I was to meet Mr. Gregory and two Secret Service agents at -that establishment, to proceed with them from there to the Executive -Inn at Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. Who had arranged that rendezvous? - -Mr. OSWALD. By mutual consent between myself and the Secret Service -agent, Mike Howard. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Howard suggested it? - -Mr. OSWALD. He suggested this as a point of rendezvous on our way to -Dallas. - -Mr. DULLES. I believe this is described in your diary, is it not? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you see or speak with Peter Gregory--have you seen or -spoken with Peter Gregory at any time subsequent to this occasion? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, first--when was that? Is it recorded in your diary? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not believe it is in my diary. - -Mr. JENNER. And when did that meeting take place? The one you now have -in mind. - -Mr. OSWALD. On three or four occasions during the week of November 25, -1963. - -Mr. JENNER. In what city or town? - -Mr. OSWALD. At the Inn of the Six Flags, in Arlington, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. And was he visiting there? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was there voluntarily to act as an interpreter -between the United States Secret Service and Marina N. Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Subsequent to that time, have you seen or spoken with Peter Gregory? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Now, you were seeking to report to us the friends and acquaintances of -your brother and your sister-in-law subsequent to their return to the -United States in June of 1962. Now, who next in addition to Paul and -Peter Gregory? - -Mr. OSWALD. None, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. None? - -Mr. OSWALD. None. - -Mr. JENNER. Were the Fords friends of your brother Lee and your -sister-in-law Marina? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you became acquainted with them, when for the first -time? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Last Tuesday, a week ago this past Tuesday, on February -11, 1964. - -Mr. JENNER. You were unacquainted with either of them prior to that -time? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have already testified about the Paines. And you -can recall none other--no other persons? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Friend or acquaintance of either Marina or of your brother -Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. OSWALD. Other than the ones I have described. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. DULLES. Plus, of course, the Paines, whom you have already -discussed, and others you may have discussed. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any knowledge of your brother Lee's defection -or alleged defection other than that which you read in the newspapers? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not. - -Mr. JENNER. And other--other than there might be a reference to that -subject in the correspondence you have produced for us? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any possible reason to believe that your -brother Lee Harvey Oswald knew Jack Ruby, or Jack Rubinstein, alias -Jack Ruby? - -Mr. OSWALD. Sir, are you asking for my opinion? - -Mr. JENNER. I am asking if you have any knowledge first--anything upon -which you can base an opinion. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not. - -Mr. JENNER. That he did or might have had an acquaintance with Jack -Ruby, or Jack Rubinstein? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. JENNER. I will ask you the same question as to Officer Tippit. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I do not. - -Mr. DULLES. With regard to Jack Ruby, you hesitated a moment. - -Do you have anything else in your mind about that that you wanted to -add or could add? - -Mr. OSWALD. I just misinterpreted his question as to whether or not he -wanted my opinion, rather than any facts that I might have. - -Mr. DULLES. Well, let's ask for your opinion now. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, we will go to your opinion. - -Do you have an opinion? - -Mr. OSWALD. Based on the newspaper articles that appeared during the -week of November 25, 1963, at which time two reported employees of -Mr. Jack Ruby, a man and a woman, stated to newspaper reporters that -they had seen Lee Harvey Oswald in Mr. Ruby's establishment, known as -the Carousel Club, and also on one occasion either or both of these -reported witnesses stated that they had seen Mr. Ruby speaking to Lee -Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. And it is on the basis of that newspaper report and only -that that you voice this opinion? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -I might further elaborate on my opinion that at various times through -various magazine articles and television programs, indicating the route -taken supposedly by my brother Lee from the place of his boarding -house, or apartment, and prior to his capture, was in a direct or -approximately a direct line to Mr. Ruby's apartment. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with the decision which your -sister-in-law, Marina, reached not to reside with your mother? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I most certainly am. - -Mr. JENNER. And did you take part in that decision, or were you present -during the course of any event that resulted in her ultimate decision? - -Mr. OSWALD. I would say that that decision, sir, was 90 percent my -decision, and only 10 percent Marina N. Oswald's decision. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Now, as to that event, would you please tell us the course it took, -your participation in it, where it occurred, and as much as you now -recall about it? - -Mr. OSWALD. This took place at the Inn---- - -Mr. JENNER. Before you answer--it is not recorded in your diary, is it? - -Mr. McKENZIE. The diary would be the best evidence of that. - -Mr. JENNER. In order that I don't try to examine over 20 pages---- - -Mr. DULLES. I have just read the diary, and I do not recall it. - -Mr. McKENZIE. I don't, either. I don't believe it is. - -Mr. JENNER. Proceed. - -Mr. OSWALD. This occurred at the Inn of the Six Flags in Arlington, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. Fix the time. - -Mr. OSWALD. On Thursday morning, November 28, 1963, at which time I -talked to Mrs. Marina N. Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. In whose presence, if anyone? - -Mr. OSWALD. If memory serves me correct, sir, in the presence of Mr. -Jim Martin, and perhaps one Secret Service agent that I cannot recall -vividly enough to identify by name. That Mr. Martin--if I may back -up, sir. We did have a Secret Service agent there. I do recall he was -Mr. Gopadze, who was acting as an interpreter. And I do believe that -Mr. Gopadze acted as an interpreter at the time when we discussed -with Marina the possibility of her moving to Mr. Jim Martin's home in -Dallas, Tex., as a permanent guest or for as long as she wished to with -her children, and I believe at this time she asked my opinion of this, -whether or not I thought this was the thing to do, and my advice to her -was that it was, and that she was going to abide by my decision that -this was the thing to do at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. This discussion occurred in the presence of these people -you have mentioned? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Included in that discussion, was the alternative of her -residing with your mother discussed? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not, because I did not look to that as an -alternative. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Marina--had there been any discussion -prior thereto, to your knowledge, of any possibility or suggestion by -anyone that Marina undertake residence with your mother? - -Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir, was there any discussion between -me and Marina or myself and my mother that Marina was going to reside -in her place. - -Mr. JENNER. As a possibility? - -Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir. I might---- - -Mr. JENNER. Whether the discussion was directly with you or not, -was the subject of the possibility--it is always possible--of -Marina residing with your mother--was it raised during this period -of time? Did you know of anybody ever suggesting it, or it being -considered--apart from whether there was discussion with you directly? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, to my knowledge I was not aware of any situation -such as that. - -Mr. JENNER. I forgot now. - -Did you say Marina was present during the course of this discussion? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And did she say anything on the subject through the -interpreter? - -Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir, go to the preceding day of Thursday, -November 28, 1963, to Wednesday, November 27, 1963, at which time I -was advised by Secret Service agent Mike Howard of the offer of Mr. -Jim Martin to take Marina and the children into the family, into his -family, and raise them as he would his own members of the family. I did -not discuss at first with Marina this offer. I did discuss with Mr. Jim -Martin, prior to discussing with Marina N. Oswald, this possibility. - -Mr. JENNER. This possibility being what possibility? - -Mr. OSWALD. Of Marina accepting this offer. - -Mr. JENNER. Of Mr. Martin? - -Mr. OSWALD. Of Mr. Martin's, that is correct. - -After my discussion with Mr. Martin on this question-- - -Mr. JENNER. In that discussion, were any alternatives discussed? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, there was not. It was a discussion only about Mr. -Martin's offer to her with me in the presence of two Secret Service -agents at lunch on that day, Wednesday, November 27, 1963. At the end -of that discussion. I considered in my own mind for a number of hours, -perhaps three or four hours, at which time I spoke to Marina N. Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. At the Six Flags? - -Mr. OSWALD. At the Inn of the Six Flags, in a motel room. - -Mr. JENNER. Anybody else present? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. OSWALD. They were present in the room, but we were in a separate -room. - -Mr. JENNER. They didn't take part in the discussion? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -At which time I pointed out Mr. Martin to Marina Oswald, and related -to her as best I could at that time his offer to take Marina into his -home, and the children into his home. - -Mr. JENNER. Let me interrupt you. - -You say you pointed out Mr. Martin to your sister-in-law, Marina? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it--am I correct from that that she had not -theretofore become acquainted with him? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I believe she had, but at that time she had seen -so many people come in and out of there, that she did not remember -which man was Mr. Martin. - -And, at this time, I did point out Mr. Martin, so that she would know -him from then on. - -Mr. JENNER. Was any question raised about her residing at the home of -a person who was a complete stranger to her? And about whom you knew -little or nothing? - -Mr. OSWALD. At this time I was considering this, and I believe this was -my attempt to have Marina consider this, of moving into a home with a -complete strange family. - -Mr. JENNER. In other words, you were raising a question in your own -mind on the subject? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Up to that time of Mr. Martin's offer, not recalling anybody that I -stated it to--I assumed it my full responsibility to have Marina and -her children move into my home in Denton, Texas. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you suggested that to her? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Or to anybody else? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Had the suggestion been made to you? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, it had not. - -Mr. DULLES. Was going back to the Paines in the picture at that time? - -Mr. OSWALD. To some extent, and that was excluded entirely by me, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. For what reason? - -Mr. OSWALD. For my observations of Mr. and Mrs. Paine at the Dallas -police office, as previously testified. - -Mr. JENNER. The antipathy to them that arose, or that you had when you -met Mr. Paine, and Mrs. Paine that evening? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Marina say anything to you on the subject, of her -desire or possibility of her residing--returning to reside with the -Paines? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did. - -Mr. JENNER. And what did she say on that subject? - -Mr. OSWALD. That she thought she could go back up to Mr. and Mrs. Paine -and live. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate that that would be entirely acceptable to -her? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Even desirable to her? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And what was your response to that? - -Mr. OSWALD. I indicated to her that I thought that that was not the -thing to do. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you say that to her? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Affirmatively? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And what did she say in response to that? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, to the best of my memory she wanted to know -why I did not want her to return with her children to Mr. and Mrs. -Paine. - -Mr. JENNER. That is a normal response. - -What did you say to that? - -Mr. OSWALD. As best I could I indicated to her I didn't think they were -the proper or correct people for her to be associated with. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, that is a term of conclusion, Mr. Oswald. Would you -please tell us--were you more specific than that, or just say, "I don't -think they are the proper people"? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. It is very difficult. - -Mr. JENNER. Try and reconstruct this conversation as best you can. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, he is trying his best to reconstruct -the conversation, and I think he has testified to the best of his -recollection. - -Mr. DULLES. Are you tired at all? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I am not tired. Thank you, sir. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Let me ask you one question, if I may. - -Mr. JENNER. Could he answer the question I have just put to him first? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Surely. - -Mr. OSWALD. May I, sir, in my own way? - -Mr. DULLES. Do you object to the question? - -Mr. McKENZIE. No, I don't object to it, Mr. Dulles. I don't think that -Robert being a layman knows what a conclusion is insofar as the way the -question was framed or insofar as the way it was responded to. And I -think he is trying to answer your question. - -Mr. JENNER. I don't mean to suggest otherwise. - -But the witness, as always--this is not criticism of this witness--they -do tend to speak in terms of conclusions. - -I am seeking as best you are able to do to reconstruct this event and -recite what occurred. - -Mr. DULLES. Would you restate the question, or rephrase it, whichever -you wish to do? - -Mr. JENNER. When Marina indicated to you her desire to return to the -Paines and live with the Paines, and you responded as you have now -testified, that you thought that that would be unwise, and they were -not the kind of people with whom she should reside, would you please -call on your recollection so as to state, to the extent that you can, -exactly what you said to her in that respect? - -Mr. OSWALD. My recollection of that, sir--I stated to her, because -of her limited knowledge of English, that no--perhaps with some hand -signals accompanying my "no" that this was not the thing to do. And -I perhaps pointed to myself and indicated let me help her on this -line--something of that nature, sir. - -That is the best I can do. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you indicate to her by sign or by expression or -statement that you were suspicious of the Paines or that your reaction -of that--was that Saturday night, did you say? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, this was a Wednesday. - -Mr. JENNER. Wednesday night--had led you to have some reservations -about them? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I perhaps attempted to give her some more -indication on that. But due to the difficulty at that time of the -language barrier, and her limited English, and she, I believe, -was agreeable in accepting my explanation, no matter how brief it -was--because, at this time, she was certainly looking to me for advice -in trying to follow my wishes as best as I could get them over to her. - -Mr. DULLES. May I just add for the record that the Commission realizes -that Mr. and Mrs. Paine were separated or were living separately, and -it was probably going back to Mrs. Paine, although I understand Mr. -Paine from time to time would visit there. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is my understanding, too, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And was that the understanding at the time you gave Marina -this advice? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether Mr. Paine stayed there from time to -time, or he just visited his wife? I understand they are separated, and -not divorced. Isn't that correct? - -Mr. JENNER. That is my understanding. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is my understanding, also. - -And in answer to your question, sir, I became aware of this on Saturday -night, November 23, 1963, at the Dallas police office. - -Mr. JENNER. Aware of the separation? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. As the Paines were about to depart with Marina -and the children and my mother. And the statement was made by Mr. Paine -that he would--I believe this to be my best recollection--that he would -take them out there and return to his apartment, at which time the -looks on both my mother's and myself's faces asked the question to Mrs. -Paine, without saying anything, and she said, "Well, it is a difficult -situation, I will explain it on the way." - -Mr. JENNER. And that increased your antipathy? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did. - -Mr. JENNER. And the decision was made, as you have related then, that -Marina would reside with the Martins? - -Mr. OSWALD. Not on Wednesday night, sir. - -On Thursday, the ensuing night. - -Mr. JENNER. The following day? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you have told us about that. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you had occasion to observe, did you not, the -treatment of FBI agents of your mother, at least in your presence? -Their attitude towards her and their treatment of her? - -Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I do not recall any FBI agents in the presence of my -mother. - -Mr. JENNER. You do not? - -Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir--I believe you have reference to the United -States Secret Service agents there. - -Mr. JENNER. No. I was going to ask you that. But Representative Ford -has a question which he has limited, however, to the FBI, so I did want -to cover that. - -You have no basis for an opinion, then, as to the treatment of your -mother, Marguerite, accorded to her by the--by FBI agents? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. You might have an opinion, but you have no--well, I will -withdraw that. - -Now, I ask you, likewise, with respect to the Secret Service agents. - -Mr. OSWALD. There was some friction with one agent and my mother, whom -she seemed to resent very harshly, any time this agent spoke to her. - -Mr. JENNER. You used the word "harshly." Does that include "unjustly" -in your opinion? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it would not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you share the opinion that the Secret Service agent you -have in mind was treating her harshly? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I would not be of that opinion. And the Secret -Service agent in question here is Mr. Charlie Kunkel. - -Mr. JENNER. During this period, did you have a good impression of him? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Having in mind all of the circumstances, and the stresses, -and his duties, do you have an opinion as to whether he accorded her -normal and expected courtesy and proper treatment? - -Mr. OSWALD. Only on one occasion I might have a hesitation to give -a positive answer to that, sir. This occurred at the Inn of the Six -Flags, in Arlington, Texas. As Mr. Kunkel was going out the front -door one day--I do not recall the day--I would say this would be -approximately Wednesday, November 27, 1963--there was a brief exchange -at the doorway between Mr. Kunkel and my mother, of which I am -attempting to recall, at which time my mother stated to him to the best -of my remembrance, that "Please, sir, don't say anything to me at all." - -And Mr. Kunkel's reply was--and he was irritated--that he would not -unless he had to, and for her not to please say anything to him. - -And that was the end of that. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the only harshness, if you would call it harshness, -that you observed occurring between any Secret Service agent and your -mother? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Your mother has made an assertion before the Commission -that she believes that the FBI should have interviewed her, and she -asserts that the FBI did not interview her. - -Do you have any information on that subject? - -Mr. OSWALD. Are we referring to the period of the week of November 25, -sir? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. OSWALD. May I have your question again, please? - -(The reporter read the pending question.) - -Mr. OSWALD. During the week of November 25, 1963, my mother, Mrs. -Marguerite C. Oswald, was not interviewed by FBI agents. - -I might add nor myself by the FBI agents. - -And the only person out there, to my knowledge, that was interviewed by -the FBI agents was Mrs. Marina N. Oswald. - -Mr. DULLES. You had been interviewed, though, at a previous time by FBI -agents, had you not? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. DULLES. I think that is indicated in your diary. - -Mr. JENNER. I will touch on that subject in due course. - -But Representative Boggs' area of questioning is confined to your -mother. Do you have any--do you know why the FBI did not interview your -mother? - -Mr. OSWALD. The FBI did not arrive at the Inn of the Six Flags in -Arlington, Texas, until, to the best of my memory, Wednesday, November -27, 1963. There is a possibility this might have been Tuesday, November -26th. But I do believe it was Wednesday. - -And their purpose of coming out there at that time, as stated to me -by a United States Secret Service man, Mike Howard, was to interview -Marina N. Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. And did they do so? - -Mr. OSWALD. They did, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And did they interview your mother? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, they did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did they interview you? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, they did not. - -If I may, sir--in reply to your question whether or not they -interviewed Mrs. Marina N. Oswald at that time, they attempted to -interview her at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there an interpreter present? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, there was. It was Mr. Lee Gopadze of the United -States Secret Service. - -Mr. JENNER. And you emphasize the word "attempt". Would you describe -the circumstances and what occurred? - -Mr. OSWALD. When the FBI agents arrived there--I can identify one of -them as a Mr. Brown, even though I know there are two or three Mr. -Browns that I have met in the FBI--I do not know his initials--the -other man I cannot remember his name. When the two agents and Mr. -Gopadze came in, Marina immediately identified or recognized one of the -agents who she had talked to before, and it is my understanding now, at -the Paines' home in Irving, Texas. - -Mr. JENNER. When? - -Mr. OSWALD. It is my understanding some time in the early part of 1963, -sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And did Marina state that, or did someone state that in -your presence? - -Mr. OSWALD. This came to my knowledge, sir, after the departure of the -FBI agents on this particular day. - -Mr. JENNER. Through what source? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, through, to the best of my memory--through -Mr. Lee Gopadze, who acted as an interpreter. - -Mr. JENNER. Was Marina present when you were afforded that information? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe she was, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And did she have an aversion to being interviewed by the -FBI agent on this occasion? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did. - -Mr. JENNER. And she expressed that aversion? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did. - -Mr. JENNER. Was the reason given in your presence? - -Mr. OSWALD. That she did not---- - -Mr. JENNER. Was it--yes or no? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. By whom; Mr. Gopadze, by interpretation, interpreting -Marina? - -Mr. OSWALD. There, again, sir, this was knowledge given to me after -their departure. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes--but through what source did you obtain it? - -Mr. OSWALD. Through Mr. Gopadze, in the presence of Marina Oswald. - -And other Secret Service agents. - -Mr. JENNER. And what did he say as to her aversion? - -Mr. OSWALD. That Marina had recognized this one FBI agent as a man who -had come to the Paines' home in Irving, Texas, and perhaps at another -location where they might have lived in Dallas, or the surrounding -territory, and had questioned Lee on these occasions. - -Mr. JENNER. In the home? - -Mr. OSWALD. In or outside of the home. I do not know whether it took -place on the inside--but within the immediate grounds of the home, at -least. - -Mr. DULLES. And was this early in 1963? Prior, anyway, to November 22, -1963, was it not? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. And that this particular one -agent--not the Mr. Brown I have referred to, but the other gentleman -that I do not recall his name--she had an aversion to speaking to -him because she was of the opinion that he had harassed Lee in his -interviews, and my observation of this at this time, at this particular -interview, was attempting to start--I would say this was certainly so. -His manner was very harsh, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Harsh towards Marina? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it most certainly was. And by the tone of -conversation by Marina to Mr. Gopadze, who was interpreting---- - -Mr. JENNER. In your presence? - -Mr. OSWALD. In my presence. And the tone of the reply between this -gentleman and Mr. Gopadze, and back to Marina, it was quite evident -there was a harshness there, and that Marina did not want to speak to -the FBI at that time. And she was refusing to. And they were insisting, -sir. And they implied in so many words, as I sat there--if I might -state--with Secret Service Agent Gary Seals, of Mobile, Ala.--we were -opening the first batch of mail that had come to Marina and Lee's -attention, and we were perhaps just four or five feet away from where -they were attempting this interview, and it came to my ears that they -were implying that if she did not cooperate with the FBI agent there, -that this would perhaps--I say, again, I am implying--in so many words, -that they would perhaps deport her from the United States and back to -Russia. - -I arose and called Mr. Mike Howard of the United States Secret Service -into the back bathroom, and stated this to him. And I also stated that -I realized there was some friction here between the United States -Secret Service and the FBI to the extent that I was of the opinion -that they did not want the FBI at that time to be aware of the tape -recording that had been made of Marina N. Oswald, that she had been -interviewed, in other words, by the United States Secret Service before -the FBI arrived at the location. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean that the Secret Service did not want the FBI to -know that they had taped an interview with Marina? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What was his response? - -Mr. OSWALD. He said, "Robert, I cannot tell you what to do." - -I did ask him if he would go over there to speak to him, and kind of -tone it down--if they were going to get anything out of her, they would -not get it that way. - -And he said he would speak to her. - -Approximately, at this time, the telephone rang, and he had to speak on -the telephone. - -I returned to my chair at the table where we were still opening mail, -and again for the second time, the same implication was brought out. - -Mr. JENNER. By the FBI agents? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. To Marina? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. In your presence? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. They spoke English? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was the interpreter whom you named--was he participating? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. It was from the FBI agent, the other gentleman, -not named Brown, to Mr. Gopadze, to Mrs. Oswald, from Mrs. Oswald back -to Mr. Gopadze to the other gentleman. - -Mr. JENNER. Proceed. - -Mr. OSWALD. On the second occurrence of this implication, of the same -implication, I arose again, and Mr. Howard was walking across the room, -and I stopped him, and I told him for the second time, or requested for -the second time that he please say something to them about that. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you speak loudly enough to be overheard? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I just asked Mr. Howard to please inform the FBI -that she had, to the contrary, been very cooperative from the time she -had been out there, up until their arrival. And, again, I referred -to Mr. Howard the reference there of perhaps the friction, or the -condition that I assumed, that they did not want the FBI aware of the -tape recording at this time. - -And his reply to me, he said, "Robert, do what you want to do. You -certainly absolutely are free to say anything you want to say." - -Mr. JENNER. And did you? - -Mr. OSWALD. I certainly did, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you say? You went over to the agent? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I went over to Mr. Brown, the agent I knew, -who was sitting at the end of the coffee table--it was a large round -coffee table. And I sat there, and I spoke to him without saying so -much about--anything about the tape recording. I did say to him--and I -was shaking my finger at him, sir, I might say that--that I resented -the implications that they were passing on to Marina, because of her -apparent uncooperative attitude. - -Mr. JENNER. Supposed, you mean? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -And that I knew for a fact that she had been very cooperative and -highly cooperative. - -And I returned to my chair at the table. - -They attempted for another 5 or 10 minutes to interview Marina Oswald -at that time, at which time Mr. Brown--he left the immediate area of -interviewing there, and came over and started speaking to me. - -I do not recall what our conversation was. I think perhaps it was on -what had transpired out there prior to their arrival. - -As the other gentlemen arose---- - -Mr. JENNER. Transpired where, prior to their arrival? - -Mr. OSWALD. Out at the Inn of the Six Flags, prior to the arrival of -the FBI agents. - -And as the other FBI agent arose rather disgustedly to end the -attempted interview, he walked to the door, opened the door, and spoke -very harshly to Mr. Brown, who was just kneeling down in front of -me--he said, "Just cut it off right there, Mr. Brown." - -Mr. Brown indicated he wanted to talk to me some more. He just motioned -to him to cut it off right here. - -Mr. Brown left and went outside with him. - -About 2 minutes later Mr. Brown appeared again, and asked me to come -outside, which I did. And then the agent apologized to me. He said -he thought I was one of the police officers out there and not Robert -Oswald--he was not aware of who I was. At which time we went into the -adjoining set of rooms, in the presence of both agents, and Mr. Brown -asked me if--it was his understanding that Marina had been interviewed -and had been cooperative prior to their arrival out there, and I said -this was so. - -Mr. JENNER. Was the Secret Service mentioned as having interviewed her? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not. - -Mr. JENNER. The only expression was that, had she been interviewed. - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, that is correct. - -Mr. Brown did use the term had she been interviewed. And my reply, I -believe, verbatim would be--my answer to that question, sir, is yes. - -Mr. JENNER. And the Secret Service, as the interviewers, had been -mentioned? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. By you? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. By Mr. Brown? - -Mr. OSWALD. Implied, sir, by Mr. Brown. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that the end of that incident? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Representative Ford has a notation here to obtain from you -all the details on when you knew that your brother Lee wished to return -from Russia, and you have given us those details, have you not? The -information and knowledge came to you through the correspondence which -now has been identified and admitted in the record? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And you had no other source? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with your mother with respect -to supplying funds--either her doing so or your doing so--to your -brother Lee when he was in Russia? - -Mr. OSWALD. My mother did write me on one occasion, sir, requesting -that---- - -Mr. JENNER. This is while he was in Russia? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. I believe at this time she was residing in -Crowell, Texas. - -Mr. JENNER. She wrote you a note? - -Mr. OSWALD. Stating that if I wanted to help Lee in any way, that I had -to go through her to do it to the extent that she was going to handle -everything, and that she was demanding--and that was the word she used -in the letter--that I do so. - -Mr. JENNER. That you do what? - -Mr. OSWALD. Send any funds that I might want to send to Lee to her, to -forward to Lee. - -This I did not do, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you respond to that letter? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Can you fix, approximately, when you received that letter? - -Mr. OSWALD. Approximately July or August of 1961, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Other than that letter, did you have any--well, in addition -to the letter, did you ever have a discussion with your mother on the -subject matter of supplying funds for your brother while he was in -Russia? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. And she had none with you, and none occurred in your -presence? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, she did not. - -Mr. JENNER. What part, if any, did you play in assisting, if you did -assist, your brother Lee in his making of repayments of the funds he -had borrowed from the State Department? - -Mr. OSWALD. I did not assist him in any way, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. He did not request it? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. He wanted to do this on his own. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss that subject with him? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. And did he so express himself? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you offer to help him? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. And he refused? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. At any time--let us confine it first to the period that -your brother resided with you in your home, upon his return from -Russia--did he express to you any opinion or make any comment on his -regard for, or affection for, or lack of affection for, or regard for -Marina? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Was the subject ever discussed between you during that -month that he was at your home? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not. - -Mr. JENNER. Was the subject ever discussed at any time thereafter? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion--obviously, you did--to observe the -relationship between your brother Lee and your sister-in-law Marina, in -their--as husband and wife? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did observe that. - -Mr. JENNER. And would you please state what you observed in that -respect? - -Mr. OSWALD. I felt on two or three occasions that Lee's tone of voice -to Marina--not understanding what was being said--but by the general -tone of voice, that he was being overbearing or forceful. - -Mr. JENNER. Inconsiderate? - -Mr. OSWALD. Sir? - -Mr. JENNER. Inconsiderate? - -Mr. OSWALD. Inconsiderate. - -Mr. JENNER. Of her? - -Mr. OSWALD. Of her--some little thing she might want to do. I say some -little thing--something that she was going to do there at the house or -something, or was doing--I don't recall any specific incident. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you recall her reaction? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. DULLES. What was it? - -Mr. OSWALD. It was usually silence. - -Mr. JENNER. Usually what, sir? - -Mr. OSWALD. Silence. - -Mr. JENNER. A silence that indicated resentment on her part, or -rejection on her part, of comments your brother was making to her? - -Mr. OSWALD. Generally, sir, I formed my opinion by the expression on -her face, and her reaction as indicated, that it was not very pleasing -to her to be perhaps reprimanded. - -Mr. JENNER. In the presence of somebody else? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us, if you will, please, from your observation of your -brother and Marina, during all of the period of time up to and through -Thanksgiving of 1962, her attitude towards your brother in the normal -course. - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, it would be described as just a normal -attitude of a wife to a husband. They seemed affectionate--both of them -appeared to be--and I believe this still to be so--very affectionate to -the baby June Lee Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. And it is your opinion, based on your observation during -this period of time, up to and including August of 19--Thanksgiving -Day 1962--it is your opinion that they led a reasonably normal married -life, having in mind all the problems that were facing them? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your brother ever discuss with you any incident in -which he thought that Marina had been guilty of some misconduct--I -don't mean sexual misconduct, but did he complain about her conduct? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Any kind or character, at any time? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there ever a discussion in your presence by anyone, -including your brother and/or your sister-in-law, on the subject of his -having physically harmed her? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not. - -Mr. JENNER. The subject was never discussed in your presence? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not. - -Mr. JENNER. By anyone? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did it come to your attention at any time prior to November -23, 1962, or November 22, 1963, that your brother had inflicted some -physical harm on your sister-in-law? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see her when she had darkened eyes, as though -a black eye had been inflicted upon her? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Or any other physical injury? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Your mother, in her appearance before the Commission, has -stated, and implied, at least, that your sister-in-law Marina could -understand English and could read English--let's confine it to the -period up to and including November 22, 1963. - -What is your opinion on that subject? - -Mr. OSWALD. It is my opinion even now, sir, if I may go a little bit -further, that her understanding of the English language is less than -what it appears to be. She does not understand a considerable amount -that she, by her actions, appears to understand. This has come to my -attention since her visit to Washington. - -Mr. JENNER. You mean since she appeared before the Commission? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -She does not grasp enough, and by this I mean, sir, to any -extent--perhaps it might be best if I compared that with my experience -with my children, approximately a three or four year old--if that much. - -Mr. JENNER. In other words, do I fairly state that your testimony, even -to the present time, and including all of the period preceding the -present time, in your contacts with her, it is your opinion that she -has a very limited command of the English language, whether you speak -in terms of reading or understanding or speaking? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -I might further qualify that, sir--that she could perhaps speak more -English words than she can read or understand. - -Mr. JENNER. And you do not, therefore, share your mother's expressed -view and opinion that she understands the English language to a greater -extent than, to use the vernacular--than she lets on? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your mother mention to you or has your mother mentioned -to you at any time any--or asserted any claims on her part, that there -were any stolen documents, either stolen from her or stolen from anyone -else, that would be relevant to this matter? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she has not. - -Mr. DULLES. Has he spoken to you about the disposition of funds that -might have come without a clear address or indication as to for whom -they were intended as between herself and Marina? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she has not. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Oswald, when your brother returned from Russia, -was there ever an occasion, to the time of his death, when he discussed -with you the subject as to why he had returned from Russia? This is, -apart from the correspondence. Did you ever have a discussion with him -on that subject, or he with you, or a discussion that occurred in your -presence? - -Mr. OSWALD. None, sir, that I recall. - -Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever? - -Mr. OSWALD. None. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, is that likewise true of your sister-in-law? Did she -ever discuss it in your presence, or with you? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; at no time has she. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever inquire of either of them on that subject? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall at any time discussing it. - -Mr. JENNER. Nor were you present at any time when anyone else ever -inquired of either of them on that subject, up to and including -November 23, 1963? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it from previous questions that you have no -knowledge of Marina ever having had a black eye or being otherwise -molested or beaten by your brother, or anyone else. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Were members of your family together, including Marina, to -celebrate, to the extent it might have been celebrated, Christmas of -1963? - -Mr. OSWALD. Christmas of 1963, sir? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry--I misinterpreted that. - -Christmas of 1963--Christmas Eve of 1963 my wife and I and my children -traveled from our home in Denton to the Martin's residence in Dallas, -Texas, and spent Christmas Eve, or the biggest part of that day, with -Marina. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you remain over to Christmas Day? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; we did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Was your mother present on Christmas Eve while you were -there? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she was not. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether she was invited to attend? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she was not. - -Mr. JENNER. As far as you know, she didn't know you were attending -there on Christmas Eve, is that correct? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion that occurred during the time of -your visit on Christmas Eve, 1963, of your mother? Was she mentioned? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she was not. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion as to whether the Secret Service -kept your sister-in-law Marina secluded against her will following -November 22, 1963? - -Mr. OSWALD. I have an opinion, sir, that they did not keep her secluded. - -Mr. JENNER. Then you do not--all right. - -Representative Ford is particularly concerned as to how stable a person -your mother is, which would be of interest, of course, I must tell -you, to the Commission, in judging the weight they might give to her -testimony. And while I did ask you some questions on that subject this -afternoon, would you give us your opinion on that? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, I would refer to my prior testimony on that. - -Mr. JENNER. Nothing has occurred since that you would seek to elaborate -upon that? - -Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps one thing, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. OSWALD. That occurred during the week of December 2, 1963. It came -to my attention from my wife, during the latter part of that week, that -my mother said on one occasion, when I talked to her over the phone, a -phone call that she had originated from her home in Fort Worth, Texas, -while the Secret Service agents were still present with her, as they -were in my home in Denton, Texas, that she turned around at the end of -the conversation and said that I requested that they leave her home. -And this, to my knowledge, was the reason why they left my mother's -home prior to the time they ever left my home. And, as a matter of -fact, some of the agents that were at my mother's home came out to -Denton to stay at my home. And one of them had conveyed to my wife what -was said that night. - -Mr. JENNER. And that is an additional factor affecting your opinion as -to the stability of your mother? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Which leads you to the view that she, since this tragic -event, she is not as stable as she was prior thereto? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Now---- - -Mr. OSWALD. And I might add, sir--I don't believe I stated this. I, of -course, did not request that the agents be removed from my mother's -residence. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, sir. - -You have testified to ownership of rifles. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And do you still own a rifle? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you own and possess a rifle--I will withdraw that. - -Did you ever take a rifle to the Irving Sports Shop in Irving, Tex.? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been in the Irving Sports Shop in Irving, -Tex.? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did anybody ever take any firearm owned by you or possessed -by you and take it to the Irving Sports Shop in Irving, Tex.? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they have not. - -Mr. JENNER. May I inquire of you, Mr. McKenzie--I have a question here -dealing with the nature of Marina's contract--if there is still one -between Robert, Marina, and Thorne. - -Do we have that contract? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, it is in evidence and has been given an exhibit -number. - -And I might also state that I have just left Mr. Rankin's office where -I was contacted by long distance telephone from my office in Dallas, -Tex., and had a letter read to me over the telephone that Mr. Thorne -has sent to Marina Oswald at the home of Mr. Declan P. Ford, in Dallas. -Tex., to the effect that he has had and received a letter from me, but -regardless of my letter to him, that she cannot unilaterally cancel -his contract, and that his contract is one that is coupled with an -interest and that it would be to her best interest to immediately -contact him directly in order that certain probate papers may be filed -in connection with the death of Lee Harvey Oswald, to establish her -community interest under the laws of the State of Texas in the estate -of Lee Harvey Oswald; and, further that there was some $7,000 being -held for Marina Oswald in Fort Worth, Tex., subject to the payment of -$100 by Marina N. Oswald, and that likewise there were other business -contracts needed to be affirmed or discussed with Marina Oswald by Mr. -Thorne. - -I might add in that connection that I have instructed my office to have -Marina Oswald bring the letter to my office this afternoon or this -evening, have a photostatic copy made of Mr. Thorne's letter, and I -further instructed my office to contact Mr. Thorne by mail, certified -mail, return receipt requested, and requesting in such letter to have -Mr. Thorne contact me directly relative to the representation of Marina -Oswald. - -And I have directed a copy of that letter to be sent to the Grievance -Committee of the Dallas Bar Association. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it there at least was, and there is a dispute about -it at the moment, as to whether it is still legally effective, an -agreement between, or a contract between Marina on the one hand and -Robert Martin and Thorne on the other. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, Mr. Jenner. And all of those agreements are in the -record, and have been produced. - -And I might also say that Marina Oswald had placed both Messrs. Thorne -and Martin on notice that she has discharged them as her attorney -and business agent, respectively, and, further, that I have likewise -notified them since Mrs. Oswald has turned the matter over to me. - -And, further, for the purpose of the record, I will state that Mrs. -Oswald has paid me the sum of $25, which is not my usual fee, to -represent her as a retainer. - -Mr. JENNER. And you do represent her? - -Mr. McKENZIE. And I do represent her, and do not desire one dime out of -any contributions that she may have received by anyone for the benefit -of herself or her children, nor would I accept same. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have a written contract with her? - -Mr. McKENZIE. I have no written contract with her. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Marina knows or can use or understand -any language other than Russian, and other than English, to the extent -that she is able to use and understand it? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. I do know that she knows a little French. - -Mr. JENNER. And that is the extent of your information on the subject? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. How do you know that she knows a little French? - -Mr. OSWALD. During her recent stay at my home in Denton, Tex.---- - -Mr. JENNER. How recent was that? Just a few days ago? - -Mr. OSWALD. Within the past 10 days to two weeks--I believe this was -brought about, to the best of my recollection, due to a television -commercial with a little French involved. I gave my total French -vocabulary of parlez vouz Français, or something, and she replied to -that. And we asked her did she speak French, and she said four or five -other words, and she said that was about all of it. - -Mr. JENNER. Did your brother ever speak to you or raise the subject of -his jealousy or possible jealousy concerning Marina and any other man -or men? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he did not. - -Mr. JENNER. And did any discussion of that subject or possible subject -ever take place in your presence by anybody? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know any of the following members of the Russian -emigré group? I will omit those you have already identified. - -George Bouhe? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you ever heard of that name? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. - -Mr. JENNER. Teofil Meller? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you ever heard the name before? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. - -Mr. JENNER. Elena Hall? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you ever heard the name before? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Frank H. Ray? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you heard that name or know of it during the lifetime -of your brother Lee? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. You became acquainted with that name, with that person, -subsequent to his death? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with her? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I am. - -Mr. JENNER. What were the circumstances, and when? - -Mr. OSWALD. On February 19, 1964, I went to Mr. and Mrs. Declan Ford's -home from Denton, Tex., on my way to Washington, D.C., to visit with -Marina briefly, and on arrival there Mrs. Ray--and I feel like this is -the same one--was babysitting with the youngest child of Lee Harvey and -Marina N. Oswald. Also, Mr. and Mrs. Declan Ford's child and her own -child. And I had a cup of coffee and waited on a taxicab. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the extent of your acquaintance with her? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the first time you ever saw or met or heard of her? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. To the best of your information, did Marina ever tease your -brother Lee in public? - -Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she, in your presence, or to your knowledge, through -other means ever make fun of his ideas? Deprecate his ideas? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my knowledge. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she ever, in your presence, ever make any comments with -respect to your brother's sexual power? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of sex as between your brother and Marina -ever discussed? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not. - -Mr. JENNER. And do you know whether any remarks of that nature were -made by anyone, including Marina, to or in the presence of your wife, -Vada? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Has anyone or did anyone during the lifetime of your -brother ever discuss or raise the subject with you? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, they did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever during all the period of your brother's -lifetime, ever hear any discussion? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. On that subject? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you record in your memorandum, diary, all of the -course of events of November 22, 1963, in which you took any part? In -particular, your visit to the police station on November 22d. - -What I am getting at, Mr. Oswald--if what you have written in your -memorandum represents your best and sharpest recollection of the course -of events recorded there as of the time you wrote that--that may -satisfy the gentleman who wished that inquiry to be made. - -Mr. OSWALD. Referring to the time I arrived at the Dallas police -station? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. OSWALD. On the night of November 22, 1963? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Is there anything---- - -Mr. JENNER. And any other visits that you made on the 23d or 24th. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Other than what is in your diary, is there anything else -you could add to it in the way of expanding on what is in your diary? - -Mr. Chairman, also in the interests of a chronological and connected -record, having in mind the context of the record when it is read, may I -suggest that the memorandum diary which we have identified and admitted -in evidence, be set forth in full in the transcript? - -Mr. DULLES. I think it would be useful to do that. - -Mr. JENNER. I think this would be a good point to do that. I will ask -Mr. Oswald a few things. - -Have you recorded in your notebook how the assassination of the -President first came to your attention, where you were, where you -proceeded from that point on, and what occurred with respect to the -subject matter really from minute to minute or hour to hour throughout -the course of the day? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have. - -Mr. JENNER. And all of your conversations and your contacts with -anyone during the course of the day having relation to the subject -matter of the assassination of President Kennedy on that day? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe I do. - -Mr. JENNER. And the subsequent arrest of your brother and your visit to -the City Jail? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And is that likewise true--that is a detailed recording of -the course of events as you participated in them on the 23d and 24th of -November? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. McKenzie has kindly asked a question that I would -wish also to join in and put to you. - -Having glanced through the memorandum again, or read it--is there -anything you wish to add to any of the recordings that you have made in -your notebook? - -Mr. OSWALD. Well---- - -Mr. JENNER. That is that you might have been stimulated during the -course of the questioning yesterday and today to recall, that you did -not recall at the time you made those entries? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir--not to the entries or material that is already in -here. Of course this is not complete to the extent it is my intention -to complete at least as fully as I possibly can the entire week out at -the Inn of the Six Flags--and possibly other events that has occurred -to me since that time that would be more in the nature of a personal -nature than anything that perhaps the Commission would be interested -in. However, I might say that any time that I do complete this, I would -certainly turn it over to the Commission, if they or my attorney deemed -it necessary. - -Mr. JENNER. If you elaborate further on your memorandum, as I -understand, you will supply the Commission with a copy, and with your -willingness also to exhibit the original of what you add to it? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir, we shall. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, you have read the memorandum. It does purport -to state in some detail and accuracy the course of events of the 22d, -23d, and 24th, and during that week. - -Was there anything in the course of your reading that memorandum that -might have led you to pose any further questions of the witness? - -Mr. DULLES. No, I think not at this time. I would have to go over it -again and I will do that. But, at this time--it seemed to me, as I read -it, to cover the area you have indicated. - -I, of course, cannot myself judge the completeness of it. But it seems -to cover the points that I would have questioned the witness on if I -had not had the diary available. - -Mr. JENNER. There is this feature. Mr. Liebeler and I have not examined -the memorandum in depth with a view as to whether any thing said in it -would stimulate us to ask further questions. I read it last night, but -not with a view in mind of asking additional questions. - -Mr. DULLES. Well, I read it from the same angle. I read it during these -proceedings, and, therefore, I was distracted from time to time. I -think it is a very helpful memorandum from the point of view of the -Commission. - -Do you wish to--it has been introduced in evidence. - -Mr. JENNER. It is in the record. - -Mr. DULLES. But do you wish it put in this record? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, I would like to have it recited in full in the -record. And as I recall, you agreed, Mr. Oswald, to dictate--to take -the memorandum and dictate it aloud on a tape, and Mr. McKenzie will -forward the tape to us. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have so agreed. - -Mr. DULLES. And when you do forward it, would you kindly advise us at -that time if there is anything on a rereading of this memorandum which -you would like to supplement or add which you feel will be essential -for the Commission to have, or desirable for the Commission to have? - -Mr. OSWALD. I will certainly do so, sir. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And, further, Mr. Dulles, in the event that any of the -attorneys representing or working with the Commission see fit to be -in Dallas in the course of the investigation of the Commission, with a -little notice Mr. Oswald will be glad to appear and talk with them at -any time. - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you. - -And it is, of course, possible that we might wish to recall you. I am -not at all sure, and I hope that will not be necessary. But we always -have to reserve that for the Commission. - -Mr. JENNER. There may be other witnesses who will say things upon which -we would like your testimony. - -For the period recorded in the memorandum, and the events recorded in -the memorandum, the recordings are full and complete, is that correct? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And if you wish, or should determine to add to it, it will -be with respect to matters that have occurred subsequently to those -events recorded in the memorandum? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. - -Mr. McKENZIE. With one exception, Mr. Jenner. In the event there is -some recollection or something that is recalled to his mind, he would -likewise add that to the memorandum. - -Mr. DULLES. I will direct that a photostat of Commission's Exhibit 323 -describing the events of November 22, 1963, and immediately following -days insofar as concerns the witness be incorporated in the record at -this point. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 323 for -identification and received in evidence.) - -Mr. JENNER. Have you spoken to any member of the Dutz Murret family in -New Orleans since November 22, 1963? - -Mr. OSWALD. I have not. - -Mr. JENNER. What knowledge do you have as to the cause of the split -between your sister-in-law, Marina, and Ruth Paine? - -Mr. OSWALD. The cause of that split, sir---- - -Mr. JENNER. What knowledge do you have of the split, first? - -Mr. OSWALD. Full knowledge of the split, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Will you tell us about it? What led to it and---- - -Mr. OSWALD. Under my advice to Marina Oswald I requested that she sever -all connections with Mr. and Mrs. Paine. - -Mr. JENNER. When did you give that advice and make that request? - -Mr. OSWALD. At the Inn of the Six Flags. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this the same occasion about which you have already -testified, and which consideration was being given, to whether your -sister-in-law Marina would reside with the Martins rather than with the -Paines? - -Mr. OSWALD. This was the first occasion, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it then from your present testimony, just answering -my present questions, that the discussion went beyond the question -whether Marina would reside with the Paines as distinguished from the -Martins, and when I say beyond, it went to the question of whether -Marina would have anything to do with the Paines thereafter. - -Am I correct? - -Mr. OSWALD. Not fully, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Will you please explain? - -Mr. OSWALD. To the extent that the question arose whether or not after -our first agreement that she would not live with the Paines, that -question never has been brought up again. The question has come up from -Mrs. Marina Oswald. The time I fix this second query or inquiry from -her was approximately December 20 or 21, 1963, at which time we were -advised that Mrs. Paine had written her a letter or letters requesting -that she contact Mrs. Paine. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the date? - -Mr. OSWALD. Approximately December 20 or December 21. - -Mr. JENNER. Marina advised you that Mrs. Ruth Paine had written her. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Had written her, Marina? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Asking Marina to do what? - -Mr. OSWALD. To contact Mrs. Paine; that Mrs. Paine wanted to speak -with her. I do not recall any specific reference as to what she had to -speak to her about. She just wanted to speak to Marina Oswald. She did -not reply to these letters. She asked me would it be all right in my -opinion for her to call her on the phone. - -I recommended that she did not talk to Mrs. Paine at all nor answer her -letters and to my knowledge this request has been done. - -Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of your knowledge, is that right? - -Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my knowledge she has not contacted Mr. or -Mrs. Paine. - -Mr. JENNER. She has followed your admonition or advice to have no -contact whatever with Mrs. Paine? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Or to permit Mrs. Paine to have any contact with her, -Marina? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. McKENZIE. May I ask a question right there, please? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Oswald, your testimony is from the best of your -knowledge, is that correct, insofar as any contact with the Paines or -Mrs. Paine is concerned? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And if the Paines have contacted Marina Oswald or if -Marina Oswald has contacted the Paines, do you or do you not know of -any such contact? - -Mr. OSWALD. I am not aware of any such contact. - -Mr. McKENZIE. All right, sir. Proceed. - -Mr. JENNER. I direct your attention to the month of October, 1962 for a -moment. Were you aware that your sister-in-law Marina was living with -Elena Hall at that time? - -Mr. OSWALD. October, 1962, sir? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. OSWALD. One moment, please. - -No, sir. I was not aware of that. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of where your brother Lee was living in the -month of October, 1962? - -Mr. OSWALD. Only to the city in which he was living. - -Mr. JENNER. And what city was that? - -Mr. OSWALD. Dallas, Tex., sir. If I might ask, sir, can you fix the -date in October, 1962 when Marina Oswald was reported living with Mrs. -Hall? - -Mr. JENNER. No, I can't at the moment. But neither Marina nor your -brother was residing in Fort Worth at that time? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, they were not. - -Mr. JENNER. From your previous testimony I gather that you did not -know the whereabouts of your brother Lee other than that it was, you -supposed, somewhere in Dallas? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -If I might make one correction, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. OSWALD. Referring to the postcard received from Lee Oswald post -dated October 10, 1962 in Dallas, Tex., I recall receiving this two -days after he had moved from Fort Worth, Tex., so it would be the first -part of October of 1962 they were residing in Fort Worth, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER, All right, with the exception of that. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it you are not in the habit of retaining personal -correspondence you receive from others? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not. - -Mr. JENNER. I think you have explained why you retained the particular -correspondence that you produced for us, that it was from your brother -while he was in Russia. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And after he returned you received some correspondence and -you retained that as well. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did the somewhat abrupt change in the attitude of your -brother Lee toward the United States come as a surprise to you? - -Mr. OSWALD. You are referring to the period in 1959? - -Mr. JENNER. I am. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the letters of May 5 and May 31 and those that -followed. But that change, and his desire to return to the United -States, did come as a surprise to you, is that correct, sir? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Are you asking about his return to the United States or -his going to Russia? - -Mr. JENNER. No, sir, his return to the United States, his change of -attitude. - -Mr. OSWALD. It was quite a surprise to me that he wished to return to -the United States from Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. Was the change in attitude toward the United States as -expressed first in the letters of November 8 and November 26, 1959, -and then the series of letters that commenced in the spring of 1961 a -surprise to you? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not a surprise to me. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you explain both of your answers. - -Mr. OSWALD. There, sir, I felt like in the due course he would -certainly change his mind and opinion of the U.S.S.R., and I felt very -strongly that after a period of so many months or a year or two that he -would change his mind and return to the United States. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, prior to your brother's leaving Russia to return to -the United States, that is actually a day or two before, if not the day -before they left Minsk for Moscow, in May of 1962, your brother Lee -outlined his projected route by return to the United States. He spoke -in that letter of leaving from England and arriving in New Orleans. - -Mr. OSWALD. I beg your pardon, sir? - -Mr. JENNER. There is a difference in the route actually taken. Did -you ever discuss with Lee why that change in route occurred? Are you -seeking that May letter? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am. - -Mr. JENNER. It is probably the 22d of May and that is Exhibit 318. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have the letter before me. You are referring to -the letter of May 22, 1962? - -Mr. JENNER. Well, it would appear from the notation handed to me. Is -there any discussion in that letter about the route of his return, -projected return, to the United States? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there is. - -Mr. JENNER. What does it say, please? - -Mr. OSWALD. "Well, we have finally gotten the word from the U.S. -Embassy and shall leave for Moscow tomorrow. We will be 10 to 14 days -in Moscow and then leave for England where we shall board a ship for -America. The transatlantic trip will take another two weeks or so." - -Mr. JENNER. Now, the fact is that they did go to Moscow and then to -Holland, and boarded a ship at Holland, and as you say touched England -and then went directly to the United States. - -Did you ever discuss with your brother that change in route? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. And I did fail to read further on down -where it does refer to, as he put it, "will actually arrive in America -probably in New Orleans." - -Mr. JENNER. He actually arrived in New York City. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. That subject matter was never discussed by you with him? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not. - -Mr. JENNER. Or by him in your presence? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not. - -Mr. JENNER. Or by Marina? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. With you or in your presence? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you related, during the course of the day and -yesterday, called our attention to all of the correspondence between -yourself and your brother from the time of his return to the United -States in June of 1962 to and through November 22, 1963? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have. - -Mr. JENNER. According to our records you and your wife, Vada, or either -or both of you, had the following contacts with the FBI during the -lifetime of your brother Lee. I direct your attention first, to the -possibility of refreshing your recollection, to the date of April 27, -1960. - -Were you interviewed by an FBI agent on that day, and would the name -Fain serve to refresh your recollection on that score? - -Mr. OSWALD. It certainly does, sir. I cannot recall the date of our -interview or our conversation. - -Mr. JENNER. This would be in the spring, let us say, of 1960. I have -given you the date. Does that sound right to you, April 27, 1960. - -Mr. OSWALD. It sounds approximately right, sir, because I do recall I -just started my employment with the Acme Brick Company in Fort Worth on -the 18th of April, 1960. - -I do not believe that it was that close to my date of employment with -the Acme Brick Company. I feel like it would have been perhaps 20 or 30 -days later. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Subject to that, do you recall the interview, is the name familiar to -you as being the gentleman who interviewed you? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And what inquiries did Mr. Fain make of you? What subject -matter, first. - -Mr. OSWALD. He was inquiring as to whether or not I had heard from my -brother Lee Harvey Oswald recently, I believe that is the way it was -put. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he at that time inquire of you on the subject matter of -your brother's defection? - -Mr. OSWALD. Not to my remembrance, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. By subject matter, do you mean reason? - -Mr. JENNER. Reason or the fact that he had defected or what he might -have known about his defection. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not believe he did. - -Mr. JENNER. He didn't discuss that. According to your recollection, -there was no discussion of that subject? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of the possibility of your being contacted -by any Soviet officials discussed? - -Mr. OSWALD. It was discussed not in the term of Soviet officials. In -case any---- - -Mr. JENNER. Any representative. - -Mr. OSWALD. Any Communist Party member or so forth along that line -contacted me, I assured him I would certainly, if necessary, take care -of myself or if I had time report it to his attention. - -Mr. JENNER. You would report all contacts to the FBI either directly to -Mr. Fain or some other FBI agent or office? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you agreed to do that? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I most certainly did. - -Mr. DULLES. Have you had any other calls from the FBI officers since -that date? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have. - -Mr. JENNER. I think we will get to that. - -Mr. DULLES. Are they pertinent? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, they are and I think I have them listed. - -Was the subject of the possibility of your receiving any request by any -such people for any item of personal identification of your brother -discussed with Mr. Fain. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall that it was. - -Mr. JENNER. You have no present recollection of that? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. JENNER. This is not--trying not to be repetitious but the author of -this memorandum is highly desirous of inquiring of you as to whether -the subject of personal identification of your brother was raised by -Mr. Fain in any connection or in any aspect. - -Mr. DULLES. I don't understand that question, what do you mean by -personal identification? - -Mr. JENNER. Some item of personal identification. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Marks identifying. - -Mr. DULLES. Wound or anything of that sort? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. Physical marks really. - -Mr. JENNER. Two classifications, physical marks how he could be -identified; secondly any items of identification, such as registration -cards, things of that nature. But first personal identification in the -sense of physical properties. The person of your brother Lee. - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe Mr. Fain did at that time inquire as to any scars -that might appear, that I was aware of on Lee's body. The only scar -that I was familiar with was the one over one ear, I do not recall -which ear it was, where he had a mastoid operation performed at an -earlier date. - -Mr. JENNER. That is his right ear, was it not? - -Mr. OSWALD. I still don't know, sir. I don't recall. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -In that connection, however, did Mr. Fain raise with you the subject -that if anyone inquired of you as to any items of scars or other -possible identification that you would in turn advise the FBI that such -an inquiry had been made of you? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir, and I might say it was my further -understanding that I did agree if anybody inquired about Lee in such a -nature that other than perhaps newspaper reporters, who were properly -identified to me and I did know, I would inform him or his office of -this inquiry. - -Mr. JENNER. Your present recollection as to aspects of identification -was limited, that is the only one you discussed with Mr. Fain was the -fact that your brother had a mastoid operation on one of his ears. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And you knew of no other scar or similar identification on -his body? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recall being again interviewed by Mr. Fain on -September 18, 1961? This would be a couple of months, two or three -months after your brother returned--no, he is still in Russia. - -Mr. DULLES. He is still in Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. Perhaps I may refresh your recollection an interview by Mr. -Fain with you respecting your then current knowledge of your brother -Lee's activities in Russia. - -Mr. OSWALD. May I inquire, sir, was this a telephone conversation? - -Mr. JENNER. All that is reported to me in this memorandum is that Mr. -Fain again interviewed you on September 18, 1961 with respect to your -knowledge of your brother Lee's activities in Russia. - -Mr. OSWALD. I do believe that he did, sir, and I believe this was over -the telephone. - -Mr. JENNER. By way of a telephone call? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. You do not recall as of this time or approximately this -time any personal interview that is as distinct from interview by -telephone? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that during the course of that conversation -you advised FBI agent Fain that your brother had been critical of the -Russians. - -Mr. OSWALD. This was in September 1961, sir? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And that you were surprised that the Russians would permit -such criticism to be conveyed to you by letter? - -Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall that specific statement but I do not deny -it. - -Mr. JENNER. It is possible that you made that statement? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, the next date is May 18, 1962. Was to your knowledge -or by report from your wife, was your wife interviewed by the FBI on -that date or approximately that date? - -Mr. OSWALD. My remembrance on that, sir, is that she was on or around -that date, and also by telephone. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she report both occasions to you? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Would you please recite those, taking them in the order, what she said -to you and where and what the circumstances were? - -Mr. OSWALD. She was at our residence in Fort Worth, Tex., and she -acknowledged that Mr. Fain---- - -Mr. JENNER. Did she tell you that, sir? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes. I might add very courteously, inquired---- - -Mr. JENNER. That Mr. Fain was quite courteous in his inquiries of Vada? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes. He inquired over the phone as to whether or not we had -recently heard from Lee, and was there any indication about how his -efforts to return to the United States were progressing from that end. - -Mr. DULLES. How did it happen he called upon your wife, rather than -you; were you away at that time, away on business or what? - -Mr. OSWALD. I don't believe I was, sir. I do believe Mr. Fain was -courteous enough perhaps not to call me at my office, and it was of -such a nature that he felt like perhaps my wife could certainly answer -whether or not we had heard from him recently. - -Mr. DULLES. I see. - -Mr JENNER. Did she report to you as to whether any understanding had -been made by her, that she or you or both of you would advise the FBI -as soon as you had information as to when he might return to the United -States? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not recall that. - -Mr. JENNER. You don't recall her reporting that to you? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not. - -Mr. JENNER. You had already agreed with Mr. Fain back in September, -1961, to keep him advised of the comings and goings of your brother in -any event, did you not? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I do not believe it was my intentions, nor do I -believe I conveyed it to Mr. Fain at that time, that I would, as soon -as I did have notice that when, or approximately when, he was going to -arrive, that I would notify them. This was certainly not my intention -then. It perhaps didn't even occur to me at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything to Mrs. Oswald, Mrs. Vada Oswald, when -she stated she had agreed to keep the FBI advised, or to advise the FBI -when you and she or either of you was further notified as to the time, -if any, of your brother Lee's return to the United States? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, my wife did not advise me that she made any type -of statement to Mr. Fain of that effect. So, I certainly did not advise -her to what we would do or convey to the FBI when we did have knowledge -of it. - -Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection then there was no -discussion on that particular phase of your brother's presence in -Russia on the occasion you are now testifying about? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you adverted to two occasions when the FBI interviewed -your wife. Was the second one June 26, 1962, or thereabouts? - -In other words, approximately five weeks later? - -Mr. OSWALD. The date was June 26, 1962, sir? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe that would be correct, sir, or approximately -correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have a conversation with Mrs. Vada Oswald on that -subject and did she make a report to you of any kind? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I believe this is the occasion that either Mr. -Fain or some other agent called the house in Fort Worth, Tex., and -requested my wife to pass on to Lee Harvey Oswald that they would like -to see him at their office in Fort Worth, Tex., for an interview. - -This is the only other time my wife ever conveyed to me that the FBI -had called the home and spoke to her, nothing else was said about it. - -Mr. DULLES. This was about a month after his return, wasn't it? - -Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 2 weeks. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion on this particular occasion -between you and your wife on the subject of her not advising the FBI of -your brother's arrival in the United States? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, there was not. - -Mr. JENNER. No discussion on that subject at all? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not at all. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she report to you that she had stated to Mr. Fain that -your brother Lee and his wife Marina and their child had come to Fort -Worth and were living with you and with her? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not state that to me. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you give again the full conversation? - -Mr. OSWALD. On that date of June 26, 1962? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, between yourself and your wife Vada. - -Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of your recollection. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my recollection, the full text of my -conversation with my wife was that Mr. Fain or some other member of -the FBI Bureau in Fort Worth, Tex., had called and spoke to her and -requested that she pass on to Lee Harvey Oswald that they would like to -speak to him at their office in Fort Worth, Tex. I would not say this -was part of the conversation, I would assume at that time, as I would -assume now, that perhaps he asked her was Lee and his family there. - -If you know my wife, she didn't lie to Mr. Fain or any other FBI agent, -and she said he was, and perhaps this prompted the request. I might say -this, sir. If they did not know that Lee Harvey Oswald had returned in -June, until June 26, 1962, somebody was asleep on the job. - -Mr. JENNER. I would perhaps be inclined to agree with that, sir. But -as far as your conversation with your wife Vada is concerned, she said -nothing that she had advised the FBI that--she had discussed with Mr. -Fain the fact that she had not advised the FBI of your brother Lee's -return. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recall an interview with the FBI, or they with -you, on August 14, 1962 or thereabouts in Fort Worth? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, and I recall that this was by telephone at the -general office of the Acme Brick Company and outside of my office as I -was leaving the office to go to lunch that day. - -The telephone call came through and I took it in another office and -spoke to Mr. Fain briefly. He inquired---- - -Mr. JENNER. He identified himself as Mr. Fain? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you become acquainted with his telephone voice at least -by that time? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, I had. - -Mr. JENNER. And that voice was the voice that you identified at that -time as that of Mr. Fain? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -What did he say and what did you say? - -Mr. OSWALD. He inquired as to where Lee was living at at that time and -to the best of my recollection my reply to him was that I did not know -the house number. I knew the street not by name but by locale and I -gave him this location. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you please tell me what you said to him? - -Mr. OSWALD. That to the best of my recollection, that this duplex was -located across the street from the side of Montgomery Ward located on -West 7th Street in Fort Worth, Tex., approximately three or four blocks -from West 7th Street. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chairman, you have greatly inconvenienced yourself -this evening and accommodated both myself and Mr. Oswald for which we -thank you. - -However, it is now 16 or 17 minutes of 8 o'clock in the evening, and -Mr. Oswald has been testifying here for, to the best way I can---- - -Mr. DULLES. It will be 12 hours pretty soon, 11 hours. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Approximately 11 hours and by the same token Mr. Jenner -has been questioning him for a like period of time, with the exception -of the few questions you have asked and the few questions I have asked, -and I submit maybe we should start again in the morning. - -And I likewise say that he is perfectly willing to go forward but I do -know that you have plans and if we can meet---- - -Mr. DULLES. We will have to do it tomorrow. - -Mr. McKENZIE. We can be here at 8:30, if it will suit the -Commission's---- - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. DULLES. 9:30 tomorrow morning. - -And we will adjourn at 11 o'clock, come hell or high water. - -(Whereupon, at 7:45 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -_Saturday, February 22, 1964_ - -TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWARD LEE OSWALD RESUMED - -The President's Commission met at 10 a.m. on February 22, 1964, at 200 -Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. - -Present was Allen W. Dulles, member. - -Also present were Albert Jenner, assistant counsel; and William -McKenzie, attorney for Robert Edward Lee Oswald. - - -Mr. DULLES. The Commission will come to order. - -We will continue the hearing of Mr. Robert Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you, sir. - -Have you now recited for us all of the occasions on which any agent of -the FBI called or visited with you prior to November 22, 1963? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have. - -Mr. DULLES. And your answer would include any other Government -investigatory bodies, would it? I mean you didn't have the Secret -Service at this time? - -Mr. McKENZIE. In answer to your question, Mr. Jenner, and to Mr. -Dulles' further question, Robert has told me there was one other agency -that he does recall at this time. - -Mr. JENNER. Why don't we have him recite it, and then see if it is -pertinent. - -Or, may I suggest, Mr. Chairman, we might go off the record and see -what it was. - -Mr. McKENZIE. It was Immigration and Naturalization. - -Mr. JENNER. Fix the date, please. - -Excuse me. - -There was one other Government agency that interviewed you? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you give the time, please? - -Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my recollection, this was approximately -January or February of 1962, at my residence in Fort Worth, Tex., -approximately 7 o'clock or 7:30 p.m. The gentleman had called my home -from Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. Had he called you? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he had called my home, and my wife had talked to -him, and he asked if it was satisfactory if he came over to ask us -some questions and some background information in regard to Lee Harvey -Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this a week day or a Sunday? - -Mr. OSWALD. This was a week day, sir. - -My wife---- - -Mr. JENNER. How did you become informed of this? - -Mr. OSWALD. My wife called me at my office, sir. And she advised the -gentleman on the phone unless I said to the contrary it was certainly -satisfactory for him to come that night, which he did, at approximately -7 or 7:30 p.m. - -Mr. JENNER. And you were there? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I was there, and my wife was present. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he give you his name, and do you recall what the name -was? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am sure he did give his name, but I do not -recall what his name was. - -It was a rather brief meeting and conversation that we had, and it was -with regards to the possibility or inquiry into the possibility of -having Lee's wife, Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, brought to this country, with -Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. As best as you can, would you reconstruct the conversation? - -Mr. OSWALD. This gentleman did take notes or perhaps he did have a form -outlining various questions that he needed answers to. I do not recall -any specific questions. However, I did state to him, after three or -four questions, in regards to Lee Harvey Oswald being in the Soviet -Union, and quite surprised, I do recall, myself that he was not aware -of the reasons why--or the reported reasons why Lee had gone to the -Soviet Union. - -And I suggested to the gentleman at that time that he perhaps contact -the FBI and I specifically mentioned Mr. Fain by name--he said he was -acquainted with Mr. Fain of the FBI Bureau, and that he would get the -background information from Mr. Fain in regards to Lee Harvey Oswald. - -I believe, sir, to the best of my remembrance that he stated at that -time he was not aware of the situation, and he thought this was just an -"ordinary" case of bringing an immigrant in from the Soviet Union to -the United States. - -Mr. JENNER. And when he said that, what person did you have in mind? - -Mr. OSWALD. Marina N. Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the person to whom you thought he was referring, -was Marina? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. DULLES. And this was after, as I recall, your correspondence showed -that they were planning to come back, was it not? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Could you give us a little more of your recollection as to -the thrust of his inquiries, the subject matter of his inquiries? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, the best of my recollection on that would -be directed to us at that time about Marina N. Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. Of what nature--her age? - -Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall any specific questions, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Did they inquire about the marriage? That would be one of -the things they would inquire about. Because it would be the marriage -to an American that would give her the preference. I was wondering -if that might have been the subject of the inquiry--whether you had -evidence that she was married to your brother. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall that specific question, but -perhaps this ground was covered. It was just a general background on -Marina N. Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. But it did relate to Marina N. Oswald? You recall that much? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did. - -Mr. JENNER. And the questions were directed toward her and about her -specifically? - -Mr. OSWALD. More so than Lee Harvey Oswald. Some questions were -addressed to me by the gentleman in relation to my brother, Lee Harvey -Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. And the inquiries of the agent--he inquired of you as to -whether you were the brother of Lee Harvey Oswald, did he? - -Mr. OSWALD. I am sure he did, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I am just trying to reconstruct the scene for you. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And whether your brother Lee Harvey Oswald was then in -Russia, and had been in Russia? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Whether he was married, and married to Marina? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And was he familiar with Marina's name? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he was. - -I might further add, sir, if I may, that the gentleman advised me he -assumed that Lee was employed by the Government in some capacity in -Russia, and not having any background or apparent background of Lee's -reported reasons for going to Russia. - -Mr. JENNER. And did you make any response to that, when his -conversation was such as to indicate that he was not fully advised of -the circumstances under which your brother had entered and remained in -Russia? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did--to the extent as I have already testified. - -I believe perhaps at this point, if not this exact point, I referred -him to the FBI Bureau and Mr. Fain. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he ask you--did he inquire whether you had received -correspondence from your brother, or the extent to which you had been -in touch with each other? - -Mr. OSWALD. Not that I recall, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. These are horribly leading questions--but I take it then -his inquiries were largely directed toward, as a representative of -the Immigration and Naturalization Service, obtaining information as -to Marina, whom he understood to be the wife of your brother, who, in -turn, was about to return to the United States with Marina, then a -citizen of Russia? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. How long did this interview last? - -Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 30 minutes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And your mind's eye is that he had a form, or he had some -set questions which he was asking from a sheet of paper? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Rather than the typical FBI or Secret Service inquiry, in -which the questions range, as mine have, for example, largely dependent -upon what your answers to the previous questions were? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -I believe the gentleman did have some type of set form as to questions -he was referring to when he spoke to me. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he go into your family background, your own age, your -occupation, and that sort of thing? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir; he just went into my background, as to -the extent of my relation to Lee Harvey and Marina N. Oswald at that -particular time. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you describe this gentleman, please--his physical -appearance? - -Mr. McKENZIE. If you recall. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, of course. - -Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my remembrance, I would describe this man to -be average build, rather short, approximately 5-foot 9 or 5-foot 10, -perhaps in his middle forties or early fifties. I do recall, sir; if I -might further add, as the gentleman was leaving the house that night, -I requested of him if it was possible for him to notify me when and if -Marina's visa would be accepted or not, and he replied to me at that -time that he could not do that. And I replied back to him that I guess -I would know about it from the extent that if she arrived over here, it -was approved. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you now exhausted your recollection of this particular -incident? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have. - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question there? - -Do you recall that at any time the State Department was in touch with -you over this general period--that is, the period of your brother's -stay in the Soviet Union, or his prospective return here? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; at no time was I aware of any member of the State -Department being in contact with me. - -And I might further add that at this particular time, after the -Immigration and Naturalization agent was there, including my prior -testimony as to the contacts with the FBI Bureau, these were the only -times prior to his arrival I was in contact with any Government agency. - -Mr. JENNER. Any agency of the Government of the United States? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, were you consciously in contact during any of that -period up to November 22, 1963, with any agent or agency of any other -government? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not. - -And I might further add that no one else other than perhaps my close -friends inquired as to my contact with Lee Harvey Oswald during that -period. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -You have related to us an incident of your brother being interviewed by -the FBI, and he reporting back to you either that evening or that same -day of that interview. That is the one in which your brother reported -to you that inquiry had been made of him as to whether he was an agent -of any agency of the United States, and you responded--I have forgotten -now just how you phrased it. - -Mr. OSWALD. "Well, don't you know, sir?" - -Mr. JENNER. Now, in addition to that particular occasion, were there -any instances in which you were directly advised or advised by your -brother or by Mrs. Vada Oswald of any other interviews by any agent of -the United States Government with your brother, after his return from -Russia? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, to the best of my remembrance on that -question, that I was advised by Lee Harvey Oswald, after he and his -wife took up residence on Mercedes Street in Fort Worth, that the FBI -had contacted him and held an interview with Lee Harvey Oswald in their -car in front of their apartment on Mercedes Street. - -Mr. JENNER. When you say in their car, you mean the automobile of the -agents? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And was that approximately the middle of October--I mean -the middle of August? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it would have been approximately the middle of -August 1962. - -Mr. JENNER. Your brother reported that to you, did he? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that the first information you had about it--that is, -did it come through your brother initially to you? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had indication from Mr. Fain, when he called me -at my office, inquiring as to where Lee was residing at that time, that -they did want to speak to him. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -And I take it, then, that Mr. Fain had called you at your office, as -you testified yesterday, shortly before this interview took place with -your brother. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of your brother about it, or did he -volunteer it? - -Mr. OSWALD. He volunteered the information, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I have forgotten now. - -Have I had you recite what your brother said to you about it? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; you have not. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you please state that--and who was present when your -brother related this to you? - -Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my remembrance of that occasion, sir, it was -in the presence of my brother, myself, and his wife, Marina N. Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. In their home, or your home? - -Mr. OSWALD. In their home, on Mercedes Street--either the afternoon or -the following day of the interview. And he just simply stated to me, -sir, that the FBI had been by and had held an interview with him in -their car in the front of their residence on Mercedes Street. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he tell you anything about the thrust of the interview, -anything that had been said, what the inquiries were of him? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any. - -Mr. JENNER. Your recollection now serves you only to say that he did -report to you that FBI agents had interviewed him in their automobile, -in front of or near their apartment on Mercedes Street--2703 Mercedes -Street--is that correct? - -Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall the number of the house, sir. I do recall -it was at the Mercedes Street address, and I have exhausted my -recollection of that particular occasion. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall what you said or what others said--that is, -others in addition to your brother--on that particular occasion, when -he recited the event? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any further comment about that -particular event at that time. - -Mr. DULLES. There is one question I would like to ask at this point. - -This is slightly on a different subject. - -Mrs. Marina Oswald, as I recall--and I don't know whether you were -present, Mr. Jenner, when she gave this testimony or not. - -Mr. JENNER. I think not. - -Mr. DULLES. She stated that in the later period she had the impression -that your brother was trying to break off a little with, I might -call it, the Russian group in Fort Worth that he had had a good many -contacts with. That is when they called, he did not seem to welcome -their coming, and they slowly stopped coming. I think this was to the -house on Mercedes Street. - -Do you have any recollection of that? Did you know about that? Did -Marina speak to you about that? Or did your brother speak to you about -that? - -Mr. JENNER. Or did you have any impressions about it? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do have impressions about that--at that -particular time when they were residing in Fort Worth. - -If I may, sir---- - -Mr. DULLES. It was Fort Worth when this took place? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Mercedes Street is in Fort Worth? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you sort of start at the beginning, and give us what -impressions you had, as to how this impressed you, as an incident? - -Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. - -During the period that they resided at the Mercedes Street address, I -was of the opinion--and I was present on one occasion at the Mercedes -Street address---- - -Mr. JENNER. Could you fix the time? - -Mr. OSWALD. This would be approximately the latter part of August 1962, -sir. - -Mr. JENNER. It would be subsequent to this interview by the FBI agents -with your brother in the automobile near their home? - -Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my recollection, I would say that would be -so, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. OSWALD. That Mr. Paul Gregory had retained Marina in the capacity -of teaching him the Russian language, and he in return was paying her a -certain amount per hour for this instruction. - -Mr. JENNER. And how did you come by that information? - -Mr. OSWALD. On the night that I was present at the home or apartment on -Mercedes Street, I was informed---- - -Mr. JENNER. By whom? - -Mr. OSWALD. By Lee Harvey Oswald--that Mr. Paul Gregory was due to -arrive at any moment, to take him and Marina driving around Fort Worth, -Tex. During this period Marina and Mr. Paul Gregory would converse in -the Russian language, and that she would be paid by the hour for her -time, and for the instruction. - -Mr. JENNER. Who was present on this occasion when your brother told you -that, in addition to yourself and your brother? - -Mr. OSWALD. Marina N. Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. And your brother spoke in English, did he? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. To the best of your knowledge and present recollection, did -Marina understand what he was relating to you? Did he make it apparent -to her? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, to the best of my recollection that -generally she was apparent to what he was saying to me. I do feel like -she certainly recognized the name of Mr. Paul Gregory and was able more -or less to fill in the conversation to the extent that she understood -that Mr. Gregory was due to arrive, and that they were to converse in -the Russian language for his benefit. - -And it was my understanding at this time, either implied or stated to -me, by Lee Harvey Oswald, that this was not the first occasion that -this had occurred. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Dulles, if I may interrupt at this time--you have -brought here with you this morning a copy of the New York Times which -you have very kindly allowed me to look at and read. - -On page 22 of the New York Times, Saturday edition, February 22, 1964, -there is an article there---- - -Mr. DULLES. I may add I have not read the paper yet. - -Mr. McKENZIE. There is an article here by Mr. Anthony Lewis, -correspondent for the New York Times, dateline Washington, February 21, -which I would like to put into the record. - -Now, the reason I would like to put it into the record---- - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. McKenzie, would it suit your convenience if we finished -this incident, and then you put this matter into the record, or is it -pertinent to this particular point? - -Mr. McKENZIE. It is not pertinent to this line of inquiry, Mr. Jenner. -But with the Chairman's permission, I would like to insert it into the -record, or make a statement into the record at this time. - -Mr. DULLES. It is all right--go ahead. - -Mr. McKENZIE. It is apparent to me, from a reading of this article, -that someone other than Robert Oswald or myself has made a statement -to the press. We have consistently stated to the press that Mr. Oswald -was under oath before this Commission, and that being under oath before -this Commission he was in no position, or that it would not be an -appropriate time for any statement to be given to the press. - -And yet in this article, Mr. Lewis has given some direct quotes, or -what appear to be direct quotes, of Mr. Oswald's testimony before this -Commission. - -Mr. DULLES. I wonder if it would be agreeable to you, if we go off the -record at this point. - -Mr. McKENZIE. If I may still be on the record for one more second, -please, sir--I would like to further and say that some of the text of -this article gives testimony in the same light, and nearly in the same -manner in which Robert Oswald has testified. - -Now, if there is a leak to the press, or if anyone on the Commission or -its staff are giving articles to the press, then I want to know as soon -as possible, because if that is so we will go down and have a press -interview, and I just don't think it is fair to the witness, nor do I -think it is fair to the Commission. - -And if you feel that I am right in my statement here, then I would like -to have this article inserted in the record. - -Now, if you would like to go off the record, that is fine with me, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Just for a moment. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. DULLES. Back on the record. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Dulles, off the record we have discussed the New York -Times article, and I have stated to you--the New York Times article -referred to as the one by Anthony Lewis, of February 22, 1964. - -Mr. DULLES. I think it is of February 21, but reported in the Times on -February 22. - -Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct. - -I have stated to you that at no time to my knowledge has Robert Oswald -given any statements to the press as set forth in this article, -particularly his testimony to the Commission. - -And, further, that both Robert Oswald and his counsel have stated to -the press that while Mr. Oswald was under oath to the Commission, and -subject to recall by the Commission, that he would not issue any press -statements, because I have likened it to a grand jury investigation, -and I have stated this to the press. - -And I did not deem it appropriate at any time for him to make any -statements to the press of his testimony before this Commission. - -And yet there are--I find in this article by Mr. Lewis, dateline -February 21, certain excerpts from his testimony before the -Commission--and it can come from only one place, and that is from -someone on the Commission's staff. - -Mr. DULLES. Well, I may wish to make an exception to that--having -been in Washington a long time, and knowing that things have a way of -leaking, and many ways of leaking. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Well, sir, I will state to you--maybe my statement is too -strong. - -But I will state to you, sir, that at no time has Mr. Oswald or myself -made any statements giving testimony to the press which has previously -been given to the Commission. - -Mr. DULLES. I am very glad to hear that statement. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And, further---- - -Mr. JENNER. I have every confidence in that. As a matter of fact, I -have been with both of you most of the time. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And, further, if it has been given to the press by -someone other than the people in this room, and I feel confident it -was not given to the press by anyone--because I have either been with -you, Mr. Dulles, or Mr. Jenner. But I feel that the Commission should -investigate this to see if there is a leak, and, if so, I feel that it -is reprehensible. - -Mr. DULLES. I will present your statement to the Chief Justice. - -Do you wish to identify the statements to which you take exception? - -Mr. McKENZIE. I will identify it this way. - -Let me just identify it this way: "His brother told the Commission that -Lee seemed changed when he returned to the United States. He had lost -a lot of hair, which Robert said was unusual for their family, and he -appeared to be under a strain." - -"Robert testified that the last time he saw Lee before the -assassination was at Thanksgiving in 1962." - -Now, I offer that, sir, for the record from the standpoint that that is -testimony given to the Commission and quoted in this article. - -There are other items or matters in the article which Mr. Lewis could -have received from public records, or from newspaper morgues, or -newspaper records. However, the two quotes that I have given from this -article are direct testimony from the Commission, from the Commission's -records. - -Mr. JENNER. I think in fairness, Mr. McKenzie, they are with respect to -subject matter. I don't think they are direct quotes of the witness' -testimony. - -Mr. McKENZIE. But you will agree with me, won't you, Mr. Jenner, that -they are in respect to subject matter, matters testified to before the -Commission by Robert Oswald? - -Mr. JENNER. The subject matter of the hair, yes. I recall specifically -asking Mr. Oswald about that yesterday. We had not inquired of the -witness about that prior to that time. - -Mr. McKENZIE. I might further add, sir, that I am familiar with the -statements made to the press by you, Mr. Dulles. - -Mr. DULLES. I think you heard both of them that I made yesterday before -the morning, afternoon and evening sessions. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir; I did. And I would be remiss if I did not add -that I know that you--when you have made statements to the press, you -have been most fair, both to the press, to the Commission, and also the -witness. - -And I am in full accord with the statements that have been made to the -press by yourself, by Mr. Rankin, and by the Chief Justice. - -I might also add, Mr. Dulles, if I may, sir, that the only reason -I bring this up is that I do feel that Mr. Robert Oswald is under -strict--the strictest of oaths to give his testimony only to the -Commission, in the interests of finding out the truth, and that he has -not given any statements to the press nor have I. - -Mr. DULLES. On that latter point, I would say that I appreciate and -respect the position that you have taken in this respect, that in the -case of previous witnesses, the Commission itself has no authority to, -as I understand it, and has not attempted to "muzzle" witnesses that -have appeared before it as to what they themselves may say after the -hearings. - -The Chief Justice has enjoined them during the hearings not to discuss -the proceedings. - -Am I correct, Mr. Jenner? - -Mr. JENNER. That is my understanding. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And that is exactly the position we are taking, sir. And -that is exactly the position that we have taken, and will continue to -take at all times while he is under oath to the Commission, and until -such time as he is released from that oath. - -Mr. DULLES. Well, I will see that your statement is brought -specifically to the attention of the Chief Justice and Mr. Rankin. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Thank you, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Shall we proceed, Mr. Jenner? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, thank you, sir. - -When the discussion of the Times article arose, you were in the -process, Mr. Oswald, of relating to us an incident of one evening in -the home of your brother, in which--with respect to which Paul Gregory, -the son of Peter Gregory, was expected to arrive at your brother's home -and then to drive about the city of Fort Worth with Marina, she talking -to him in Russian and he likewise in Russian, as part of a course of -instruction in conversational Russian between Marina and Paul Gregory, -who was seeking to improve his command of the Russian language. And you -had reached the point at which you related a conversation with you in -the presence of Marina, which you thought she understood and she took -sufficient part, in to lead you to believe she did understand it. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Does that refresh your recollection as to where we were? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does. - -Mr. DULLES. And I would like to add, as I understand it, it was -indicated to you by your brother that this was to be on a financial -basis--that is, she was in effect giving Russian lessons to Paul -Gregory, and would be paid for it. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Was any amount of money mentioned? It was by the hour, I -think you said. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; a figure was mentioned. However, I do not recall -the exact figure. I could perhaps to the best of my ability and -remembrance of the occasion place the figure at over $3 an hour. - -I do not recall any further conversation that I had with Marina and Lee -Oswald on that occasion. - -I did leave their residence before the reported time that Mr. Gregory -was due to arrive. - -Mr. JENNER. Did anything occur that evening, in the course of that -interchange and conversation, that had a bearing upon, or led you to -believe or have the impression, that your brother Lee was seeking to -break off or lessen relations on his part and Marina's part with their -Russian friends? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, proceed. - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question there? - -Did your brother indicate whether these lessons were being given in his -and Marina's home, or whether they were to be given at the Gregory home? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. It was implied if not stated to me at that time -that the lesson was to be given going around Fort Worth, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. This particular occasion? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you get any impression, Mr. Oswald, as to the course -of procedure in that respect for any future occasions, or those that -had occurred in the past, because I believe you indicated that your -impression was that this was not arising for the first time that -evening. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall anything being stated at that -time or any other time where these lessons were to be given other than -my impression of that one night that it was to be given as they drove -around Fort Worth, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. Am I correct in my impression of your testimony that your -impression in turn was that this relationship had existed at least -somewhat before this occasion? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Then would you proceed to the next circumstance or event -which led you eventually to the conclusion or impression that your -brother was seeking to lessen the relations between themselves, he and -Marina, and their Russian friends? - -Mr. OSWALD. To the contrary, sir, that was the only time that I recall -that any people of Russian descent or interested in the Russian -language was mentioned in my presence, and I base my opinion on that -particular incident that they were not at the time seeking to lessen -their relationship within this group of people when they did reside at -the Mercedes Street address in Fort Worth, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -I had been under the impression, Mr. Oswald, from your first immediate -response to Mr. Dulles' question on this subject, that you had stated -or at least indicated--I had that impression--that you had noted -somewhere along a point of time while they were on Mercedes Street, -some effort on the part of your brother to lessen the intensity at -least of the degree of intercourse between themselves, that is he and -Marina, and their friends of Russian derivation. Am I correct in that? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe you are incorrect in that, sir. I believe I -stated to Mr. Dulles that to the contrary at that particular time -they were not attempting to lessen their relations with this group of -persons. And I cited the incident of that night as they awaited on -the arrival of Mr. Paul Gregory as an example that they were still in -contact at least with that member of Mr. Gregory's family, if not Mr. -Gregory. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mr. DULLES. It may well have been that the testimony that we previously -had related to a subsequent period. - -Mr. JENNER. That may well be. - -I was not here when Marina testified. - -It does lead me, Mr. Chairman, however, to make some further inquiries -on this subject. - -Mr. DULLES. All right. - -Mr. JENNER. How old, in your judgment, if you have an impression, was -Mr. Paul Gregory? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I would place his age at that time approximately -20 or 21 years of age. - -Mr. JENNER. And I believe you testified last evening that you had met -Paul Gregory. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you gain any impression that evening that prior -contacts between Paul Gregory and your brother and sister-in-law in -this area had embraced other occasions when they, meaning Marina and -Paul Gregory, had driven about the city of Fort Worth? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I was of that opinion--whether it was stated or -implied, at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. Could you state for us a little more in detail any remark -that led to that conclusion? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any specific remark that was made -at that time. But I was, as I am now, of the opinion that there were -or had been prior interviews or lessons between Marina Oswald and Lee -Harvey Oswald and Mr. Paul Gregory. - -Mr. JENNER. That is prior occasions when this method of conducting a -lesson had been pursued--that is, just driving about the city of Fort -Worth? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, did there occur subsequently any further occasions -in which the conducting of lessons by Marina with or for Paul Gregory -arose? - -Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Up to the time that they had left Fort Worth, which, as I -recall, was the day after Thanksgiving, 1962, did there come to your -attention, either through your brother or Marina or some other source, -the undertaking by Marina to give or participate in lessons to persons -other than Paul Gregory, the teaching or increasing the facility of use -of the Russian language on the part of someone else? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. And if I may, sir, to understand the question -fully--you referred to the day after Thanksgiving, 1962, as the day -that they had left Fort Worth, Tex. They had given up their residence -on Mercedes Street in the early part of October 1962, and moved to -Dallas, Tex., address unknown to me. On the occasion referred to on -Thanksgiving 1962, it was my understanding that they returned to Dallas -when they departed from my home in Fort Worth, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. You are absolutely correct. - -I did misstate your testimony. But up until the time they did leave, -were there any further occasions on which you received the impression, -at least, that Marina had been engaged, either for compensation or -voluntarily in teaching conversational Russian or increasing the -facility or use of the Russian language by someone else? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not acquainted with any other persons that -perhaps she had pursued this line of employment with, or volunteered to -instruct anybody else in the use of the Russian language. - -Mr. JENNER. Does that exhaust this subject, Mr. Chairman? - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. You may proceed. - -Mr. JENNER. At any time before Marina and Lee left Fort Worth to go to -Dallas, did you become aware of her, at least from time to time, living -with others in the city of Fort Worth--that is, not living with your -brother in their home? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not aware of that. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald; I anticipate that a series of names which I am -about to put to you would in large part be strange to you, but one of -the other divisions of the investigation staff desires me to inquire -whether any of these names are familiar to you. - -Prior to November 22, 1963, did you or your brother, Lee, or any member -of the Oswald family--that would include your brother John and your -mother--as far as you know hear of any of the following persons: - -Mr. Chairman, may I withdraw that question and put it to the witness -first. - -Did you, at any time prior to November 22, 1963, know of or hear of any -of the following persons: - -One, George Senator? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. - -Mr. JENNER. And that name is unfamiliar to you? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Ralph Paul? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. DULLES. We will assume that each of those questions the name is -also unfamiliar to you. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -If you would like, may I suggest that you read the entire list and if -any of them are familiar to me I would stop you on that occasion. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you. - -Andrew Armstrong; Karen Bennett, also sometimes known as Carlin; Bruce -Carlin; Roy William Pike, alias Mickey Ryan; Robert Kermit Patterson, -alias Bobby Patterson; Donald C. Stuart; Charles Arndt; Stanley or -Katch Skotnicki; Larry Crafard; Eva Grant; Joe Bonds; Joyce Lee -McDonald, also known as Joy Dale. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not heard of any of those people mentioned -by name, nor am I familiar with any of their names. - -Mr. JENNER. And as far as you know, none of the members of your -family, including your brother Lee, and Marina, knew of, or were -acquainted with any of these people? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And this likewise would include your wife Vada and your -mother and your brother John? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether or not your brother Lee ever visited -any of the following night clubs, bars, or taverns or restaurants in -the Dallas-Fort Worth area: - -The Bullpen Drive-In; the Carousel Club. - -Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, Mr. Jenner. This is prior to November 23, -1963--is that correct? - -Mr. JENNER. It is, sir. - -Mr. OSWALD. Thank you. - -Mr. JENNER. I will repeat the list. - -The Bullpen Drive-in; the Carousel Club; the Vegas Club; the Sovereign -Club. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not aware at any time that he did enter these -establishments. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you been in any of these establishments? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. - -Mr. JENNER. This leads me to ask you about your brother's drinking -habits, if any. Did he take an occasional drink--I mean of intoxicating -liquor? - -Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my remembrance, sir, on that particular -point, I have never known him to take a drink of an alcoholic beverage. - -Mr. JENNER. And have you been with him on occasion when you have had -alcoholic beverage, whereas at the same time he declined to have any, -or did not have any? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any occasion such as that. - -Mr. JENNER. Were there occasions on which you would have drawn to your -attention the fact that your brother was not a drinking man--even a -social drinker? - -That is, were you present when others might have been having a social -drink at which your brother either declined or just didn't have one? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any such incident. - -Mr. JENNER. But you do have a firm recollection or opinion, in any -event, that your brother was not a drinking man, even a social drinker? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And am I correct that you did testify a moment ago that -there was never an occasion when you saw your brother imbibe an -intoxicating liquor? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. What about Marina in that respect? - -Mr. OSWALD. There, again, sir, we are referring to the time prior to -November 23, 1963, is that correct? - -Mr. JENNER. Well, let's take that first. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. - -Nor was I present on any occasion that she did take a drink of any type -of alcoholic beverage. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, I will take the period from the 22d of November to the -present time. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have been in her presence on a number of -occasions where she has taken a drink of an alcoholic beverage. - -Mr. JENNER. And has it been just an occasional drink, purely social -drinking? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And---- - -Mr. OSWALD. If I may qualify one point of that statement, as to being -a social drink--during the period that we was at the Inn of the Six -Flags in Arlington, Tex., the baby, Rachel Oswald, being breast fed, -and due to the nature that she was quite upset at that particular -time, that she was not eating proper, and that they were having some -difficulty--she was having difficulty maintaining the natural milk -supply in her own body for the baby, that one six-pack of beer was -brought in, and at no time did I see her drink other than one beer at a -time or one beer per day to help fortify herself in this production of -milk. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear any conversation in which your brother -participated or Marina participated with you or in your presence -respecting the subject of his or her or their attendance at any night -club, bar, tavern, or restaurant in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, and -when I use the word restaurant, I am thinking of a restaurant in which -intoxicating liquors or entertainment might be employed. - -Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry I keep referring to this point again, sir, but -this was prior to November 23, 1963? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not aware of that. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. That is, your brother and Marina were not in -the habit of--you know of no occasion on which they attended bars or -restaurants with entertainment which might be described as night clubs -and that sort of thing? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And I take it that is not your habit, either? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. DULLES. To your knowledge, did he have any friends in this circle, -the nightclub circle? - -Mr. OSWALD. Not that I was aware of, sir, prior to November 23, 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know of any friends or classmates or associates, -either of yourself or your brother Lee, who have become nightclub -entertainers? And may I say that includes so-called stripteasers or -musicians or singers, or masters of ceremony. - -Mr. OSWALD. If I may refresh my memory to the question, sir, you did -include myself in that statement, did you not? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. OSWALD. The only gentleman that I was ever in a remote way -acquainted with who has become perhaps what might be determined an -entertainer as you have outlined was a boy that attended high school -with me in Fort Worth, Tex., and he is now known as, as then--I believe -his correct name is Mr. Van Williams. If I might pinpoint the series of -programs on television that he appeared in was Surfside Six, and other -western and detective type series programs on television. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether your brother was acquainted with him? - -Mr. OSWALD. I would be of the opinion, sir, that he was not acquainted -with Mr. Williams. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, do you know of any friends, classmates or associates -of either yourself or your brother Lee who have become waitresses, -bartenders, or, to use the vernacular, bouncers? - -You know what a bouncer is? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -To answer your question, sir, I do not know of any that are personally -acquainted to myself or that I would be of the opinion that were -acquainted with Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. And the same question as to members or employees of any gun -clubs or shooting ranges, rifle ranges. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes; 1 am acquainted with at least two people who have -joined or belonged to a gun club or something of that nature. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you please identify them, and also state whether or -not your brother Lee was acquainted with these people. - -Mr. OSWALD. Mr. Bill Harlan, formerly of the Acme Brick Co., in Fort -Worth, Tex., and Mr.--I am quite sure that Mr. Harlan is not acquainted -with my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald. - -The other gentleman is Mr. Jewel Godi, of the Acme Brick Co., in -Denton, Tex., who is not acquainted with my brother Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it these two gentlemen you have identified are -fellow employees of Acme Brick Co.? - -Mr. OSWALD. Or ex-employees that have become my personal friends, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. As far as you know--I will withdraw that, because it would -be repetitious. - -What kind of gun clubs--hunting clubs, or gun practice clubs? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. Harlan belonged to an archery club in Fort Worth, Tex., that I -believe was also part of a gun club. - -And Mr. Godi belongs to a Denton gun club of the nature of a practice -range. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know of any possible homosexual tendency or activity -of your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any information as to whether he at any time -met with suspected homosexuals or whether he went to the places -reputedly frequented by homosexuals? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your brother's attitude toward sex in general? - -Mr. OSWALD. I do not have an opinion on that, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any opinion whether it was a normal, healthy -attitude? - -Mr. OSWALD. I would say it would be a normal, healthy attitude, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have, any--do you know what his attitude was, if -he had one and you are acquainted with, toward homosexuality and -homosexuals? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not of any opinion on that particular -question. - -Mr. JENNER. And this series of questions which I have been asked to -put to you, I intended to include his entire lifetime. And were you -answering the questions with that in mind? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I would not change my own answers on that basis. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether or not any of the persons whose names I -read to you, that series of names, beginning with George Senator, and -concluding with Joyce Lee McDonald, contacted any member of your family -or friends subsequent to November 22, 1963? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my knowledge. - -Mr. JENNER. Or any employer or fellow employee of yours? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. Not to my knowledge. - -Mr. JENNER. And I take it from your previous answer, which was that -these names were unfamiliar to you, that they certainly did not contact -you--at least you did not know consciously that they contacted you. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. This is not, I anticipate, fully repetitious, Mr. Chairman, -but an inquiry has been made--I just want to make certain of it. - -Were you at all aware as to whether in October of 1962--aware of the -fact, that for a short time Marina resided with Elena Hall? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not. - -Mr. JENNER. And were you aware that there was for a short period of -time some argument or fight between your brother and Marina which may -have played a part in her visiting in the home of Elena Hall for a -short time in October 1962? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it, sir, this is all completely new to you. You have -no information on this subject. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. You were not aware of anything of this nature at that time? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. McKenzie described at length yesterday Mr. George -De Mohrenschildt. As I recall it, your testimony was that you were -unacquainted with this gentleman. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear either your brother--were you present -when either your brother or Marina discussed, or may have discussed Mr. -De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not been. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you aware of any threat that your brother uttered -against or may have uttered against Mr. De Mohrenschildt? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not aware of any threat. - -Mr. JENNER. You are now aware of the photograph of your brother with -the pistol on his hip and holding the rifle and also holding a sheaf of -papers, are you not? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am. - -Mr. JENNER. And did you see that photograph by any chance at any time -prior to November 22, 1963? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. Or did not. - -Mr. JENNER. You were unaware that it had been taken? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you know that your brother had either the gun or the -pistol? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Or had acquired the gun or pistol? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did Marina, following November 22, 1963, herself also -acquire the same antipathy that you have testified you had with respect -to the Paines? - -Mr. OSWALD. I would be of the opinion, sir, that she has not or does -not have the antipathy that I have to the Paines. However, I feel -confident that she has followed my advice along that line, and not -contacted Mr. or Mrs. Paine since November 23, 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you have the impression that Mrs. Paine had some -ulterior motive, other than a good motive, desire to befriend Marina -when she was in some distress, and to gain the chance to talk Russian -with her? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I would not have an opinion of that, since I was -not aware of the circumstances of how they did become acquainted, and -consequently started living in her residence in Irving, Tex. - -Mr. DULLES. I gathered from your previous testimony that your feeling, -visceral feeling, related both to Mrs. Paine and to Mr. Paine. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did. More so, if I might add, sir, to Mr. -Paine than Mrs. Paine. But still I will include both of them in that -answer. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you know anything of Mr. Paine's background and -affiliations? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. DULLES. You knew of Mrs. Paine's interest in learning Russian, did -you not, and in Russian matters? - -Mr. OSWALD. Following November 22, 1963, this has been reported to me. - -Mr. DULLES. By Marina? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I believe I read this in various reported news -articles and magazines that she has stated this was her intention. - -Mr. DULLES. And Marina did not talk to you about either of the Paines -particularly? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to any extent. - -Mr. JENNER. Your information with respect to the Paines, other than -your meeting them, I believe you said, the evening of November 22, and -later in the Inn of the Six Flags, is based primarily--in addition to -that--on items you have read in the newspaper and that sort of thing? - -Mr. OSWALD. Sir, to fully understand the question, you referred to a -meeting of Mr. and Mrs. Paine at the Inn of the Six Flags? - -Mr. JENNER. I thought you said that Mrs. Paine--or was it Mrs. Ford in -the Inn of the Six Flags? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; neither of the ladies you have mentioned were in -the Inn of the Six Flags. - -Mr. JENNER. Then your whole acquaintance with the Paines was your being -introduced to them, is that correct? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that is not correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you relate your acquaintance with the Paines, and -when it first arose? - -Mr. OSWALD. The first occasion that I met Mr. and Mrs. Paine, was at -the Dallas police station on the night of November 22, 1963. - -Mr. DULLES. May I ask there--had you heard about them before? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not. - -Mr. DULLES. Hadn't even heard about them? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not. And my subsequent second meeting with -Mr. and Mrs. Paine--and I might add my last meeting with Mr. and Mrs. -Paine--was at their home in Irving, Tex., on the day that Mr. John -Thorne, Mr. Jim Martin and myself--for the purpose of picking up Marina -N. Oswald's and Lee Harvey Oswald's personal belongings. This was the -only time that I have met them since the night of November 22, 1963. - -Mr. DULLES. Did anything transpire on that occasion, when you were -taking up Marina's and your brother's belongings? - -Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps, sir, the only thing that I recall that would -perhaps be of some type of significance was that Mr. Paine, at the -approximate time we were ready to depart from his home, called me over -to the side and stated that he would like to know where Marina was -staying, and they would like to be in contact with her. And my comment -to him was that Marina was leaving the area, and that she was to be -well taken care of. And at that time we left. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether the Paines have been in touch with -Marina since that particular time, when you left the Paine's home? - -Mr. OSWALD. To my knowledge, sir, they have not in person been in -contact with Marina Oswald. However, it is my understanding from Mr. -Jim Martin and Mrs. Marina Oswald that Mrs. Paine has written a number -of letters to Mrs. Marina Oswald during her stay at the Martin's home -in Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you know the content of those letters? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether Marina still has them in her possession? - -Mr. OSWALD. I would be of the opinion that she does, sir. And the only -comment she had made to me directly, or Mr. Martin perhaps made to me, -as to the contents of the letters was that they wanted to talk with -Marina, they wanted to be in contact with Marina in person. - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you. - -Mr. JENNER. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. DULLES. Back on the record. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, during all of the time that your brother and -your sister-in-law Marina resided in Fort Worth, Tex., were you aware -of any occasion when your sister resided or visited with, and lived -with, anyone else other than your brother Lee in their home? - -Mr. OSWALD. Sir, if I may correct you--you referred to her as my sister. - -Mr. JENNER. I meant sister-in-law. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not acquainted at any time that she did. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have any knowledge or acquaintance with whether -Marina did any shopping on her own? - -Mr. OSWALD. During the period that they were in Fort Worth, Tex., sir? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I am acquainted. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you relate your knowledge in that respect? - -Mr. OSWALD. A conversation with my wife on return home from work one -afternoon, approximately the latter part of June 1962--correction, sir. - -It was not a conversation with my wife--it was a conversation with -my mother, at approximately the latter part of August 1962, or the -first part of October 1962. And, to the best of my recollection, the -conversation was to the effect that Lee Harvey Oswald had gone downtown -in Fort Worth, Tex., looking for a job, and that Marina wanted to find -Lee while he was downtown, and even though reportedly from my mother -that she insisted that she not leave the house, she did, carrying the -baby, June Lee Oswald with her, and walked approximately 15 or 16 -blocks into downtown Fort Worth. - -It is my understanding that she became lost or needed assistance in her -directions, in her attempt either to find Lee Harvey Oswald or return -home, that she asked the assistance of a police officer, and that -apparently she did not have any other difficulty. - -It is my understanding at that time that she did purchase either some -baby clothes or perhaps some clothes for herself. - -Mr. JENNER. And this was all related to you by your mother? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And does that exhaust your fund of knowledge as to any -shopping trips or visiting and shopping at a local shopping center or -stores by Marina? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--prior to November 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. November 22, 1963? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. DULLES. The diary, or memorandum, has considerable information, you -may recall, with purchases that were made by others for Marina and the -child, as I recall. - -Mr. JENNER. That was afterward. - -Mr. DULLES. That was afterward? - -Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir, I do recall another instance. - -In the presence of myself, Lee Harvey Oswald and Mrs. Marina Oswald and -the baby June Lee Oswald, approximately the middle of June 1963--the -occasion was a grocery shopping for my family and for---- - -Mr. JENNER. June of 1963? - -Mr. OSWALD. Thank you, sir. June of 1962. And this was to my -knowledge---- - -Mr. JENNER. Your statement 1963 was a slip of the tongue? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -And there was, to my knowledge, at that time the first occasion that -Mrs. Marina Oswald had ever been in a supermarket of the nature that is -found in the United States. - -Mr. JENNER. Tell us about the occasion. - -Mr. OSWALD. I remember the occasion quite vividly. If you ever have the -opportunity, sir, to take a person of that nature into a supermarket or -an average size store, and watch the expression on their face, as to -the magnitude of the food and the variety of the food that was in her -presence--and I believe for the first time to any extent--it was quite -a pleasant observation, I might add, sir. She was quite overwhelmed. - -Mr. JENNER. Surprised and overwhelmed? - -Mr. OSWALD. Surprised---- - -Mr. DULLES. There is nothing like it in Minsk. - -Mr. OSWALD. I feel certain, sir, there is not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you get the impression that her reaction was such to -indicate that at least she had never seen anything of this nature? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I was of the exact opinion she had not seen -anything anywhere comparable to that in the nature of a food store. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, did you get the impression this was a spontaneous -reaction on her part? - -Mr. OSWALD. Most certainly it was, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. She was not putting on an act to impress you and Lee and -anyone accompanying you? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. This is of interest, Mr. Chairman, particularly the -spontaneity. - -Mr. DULLES. Was that in Dallas or Fort Worth? - -Mr. OSWALD. This was in Fort Worth, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. This is while they were living with you, Mr. Oswald? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. How did this arise? Did you just decide--was this part of -showing her Fort Worth, or was it developed from desiring to go to the -supermarket to purchase something, or was it a combination of both? - -Mr OSWALD. Sir, I believe it was a combination of both. - -If I might add, the store that I went into was not the store that I -usually purchased groceries from. - -Mr. JENNER. You were leading--you were doing the leading of this party? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And, in addition to yourself and Marina, who was present? - -Mr. OSWALD. Only the baby, June Lee Oswald. - -Mr. JENNER. Just the two of you going, and you were showing her around -the town? - -Mr. OSWALD. And Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. DULLES. And you made some purchases? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we did. And she made some purchases. Or she -selected some items. - -Mr. DULLES. Can you tell us whether Marina had from time to time a -certain amount of money for her own disposition? Did your brother Lee -leave her money? - -Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge that he did, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Would it be your impression that he did not? - -Mr. OSWALD. It would be my impression that he did not. - -Mr. JENNER. I would appreciate it if you would proceed to tell about -your taking her around on this particular day, and her reactions, -perhaps, to other things that you showed her in Fort Worth at this -early stage of her being in this country. - -Mr. OSWALD. Her reactions in the supermarket, sir, as I have testified, -I believe to be completely spontaneous, and certainly from all -appearances it was entirely new to her. I do recall we started off in -the section of the store--do you want me to name the store, sir? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes; you might do that. - -Mr. OSWALD. It was a Safeway Grocery Store, located on Camp Bowie and -Ridglea addition of Fort Worth, Tex. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it Camp Bowie is the name of a street? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And you obtained any additional impressions as you made -this tour of Fort Worth, that is, as to her reactions to her new -surroundings? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. She reacted to a walk that we took after leaving -the grocery store and drove across the street to a suburban shopping -center, with a large variety of different type stores. I do not recall -going into any particular store. We were, as the term is applied, -window shopping. And she was quite impressed at the articles of -clothing, of jewelry, of shoes, and such items as might be displayed -in this type of suburban shopping center which would more or less -encompass a full variety of practically everything other than large -appliances at this time. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -At any time prior to November 22, 1963, did you become acquainted -with her habits, if any, with respect to independent shopping on her -part--that is, shopping by herself for foodstuffs or articles of -clothing for little June or for herself? - -Mr. OSWALD. None other than, sir, that I have already related as -related by my mother to me. - -Mr. JENNER. Is the name Hutch's Market familiar to you? - -Mr. OSWALD. It is not. - -Mr. JENNER. You testified yesterday that, as I recall--and if I am -incorrect, please correct me--that your impression at least was that -your mother was opposed to your marriage? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Am I correct up to that point? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Without the degree of that opposition. Was it quite -affirmative? Did she make any scene? Did she talk--express to you -unequivocally her opposition? - -Give us those circumstances, please. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any specific instance where she -firmly stated that she was against my marriage. It might have been -little things along that line she might have said to me that I do not -recall formulated my opinion that she was to some degree at least -having objections to my marriage. - -Mr. JENNER. But did you have the feeling, and was it conveyed to you, -that she was quite affirmatively opposed to your marriage? - -Mr. OSWALD. I would say generally; yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Did Marina and your mother stay at the Adolphus Hotel in Dallas? - -Mr. OSWALD. In what period? - -Mr. JENNER. Before they moved to the Executive House? - -Mr. DULLES. Right after November 22--maybe the night of November 22. I -think they had a room and moved out. - -Mr. JENNER. I thought the witness referred to the Adolphus Hotel -yesterday. - -Mr. McKENZIE. He has not referred to the Adolphus Hotel. - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe that is right. - -My first occasion to meet with my mother and Marina Oswald on November -23, 1963---- - -Mr. JENNER. That is a Saturday. - -Mr. OSWALD. Was at the Adolphus Hotel, rather than the Baker Hotel, as -noted in my notes on page 10, in my diary. - -Mr. JENNER. I had noted that, Mr. Oswald. And would you identify the -page to which you have reference now? - -Mr. OSWALD. Page 10, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Page 10 of your memorandum? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is right. And I might point out at the time I wrote -it down in parens--"I believe." In other words, my statement was "I -received a call from mother while at the DA's office, and she advised -she was at the Baker Hotel--I believe." - -Mr. JENNER. And your recollection has now been refreshed that that was -the Adolphus Hotel rather than the Baker Hotel? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am of the opinion now it was the Adolphus Hotel -rather than the Baker Hotel. - -Mr. JENNER. And then the next day they were moved to or themselves -moved to Executive House. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that is not correct. They were moved later on, on -Saturday, November 23, 1963, to the Executive Inn. - -Mr. JENNER. Executive Inn that is called? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Rather than Executive House? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is right. - -Mr. JENNER. They went from the Adolphus Hotel in Dallas to the -Executive Inn? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. That is my understanding, that they did. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Mr. DULLES. Were those quarters, as far as you recall, retained for -them by the Life people, Life, Time, Fortune people? - -Mr. OSWALD. In my conversation with my mother on Saturday, November -23, while I was at the district attorney's office in Dallas, Tex., -she related to me at that time that they had furnished her and Marina -Oswald and the babies three rooms at the Adolphus Hotel, and that Life -magazine was paying for these rooms, and that they could keep these -rooms as they wanted--as long as they wanted to be close to Lee and the -situation that was erupting in Dallas, Tex., at this time. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Did you, during this period of time, have occasion to visit them at the -Adolphus Hotel? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. And is that recorded in your memorandum. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. Then I don't wish to burden the record by asking you about -it again. - -Did you have occasion to visit them at the Executive Inn? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. And is that recorded in your memorandum? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is. - -Mr. JENNER. Identify the page, please. - -Mr. OSWALD. That begins on page 14, at the bottom of the page, under -the date of Sunday, November 24, 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. And on that same day, did they move to the Inn of the Six -Flags? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is right--later on in the afternoon, Sunday, November -24. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you accompany them on that occasion? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. I was in a separate car, but they were in -the same party. - -Mr. JENNER. All three phases, Mr. Oswald--Adolphus Hotel, Executive -Inn, and the journey to and living at the Inn of the Six Flags, they -are recorded in your memorandum? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they are. - -Mr. JENNER. Did there come a time when differences arose between Marina -and your mother? - -Mr. McKENZIE. You have covered that. - -Mr. JENNER. Are you sure? - -Mr. McKENZIE. I will submit it to the Chair. - -Mr. DULLES. I would think so. I think that has been covered. - -Mr. OSWALD. Did you want me to answer that, sir? - -Mr. JENNER. We don't want it if it is repetitious. - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe that has already been testified to, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. During the course of the days immediately following -November 22, 1963, whether at the Adolphus or the Executive Inn or the -Inn of the Six Flags, did any time arise, any talk with you or in your -presence, of a supposed possible conspiracy between the Secret Service -men on the one hand and Marina on the other? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not. - -Mr. JENNER. Nothing of that character arose, as far as you can recall? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And I may say to you, Mr. Oswald, that the purpose of -asking you that question is a statement made by your mother that there -was a conspiracy between Marina and the Secret Service to turn Marina -against your mother and against your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, or the -memory of your brother. - -Mr. OSWALD. I would say to the best of my remembrance of all happenings -at the Inn of the Six Flags that at no time, to my knowledge, was there -any type of conspiracy of that nature, and at no time was I aware of -any type of conspiracy that would even resemble that statement, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Mr. DULLES. As I recall, however, you have testified that you discussed -with the Secret Service the type of interrogation that the FBI were -carrying on, and that has been fully presented in the record. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Following November 22, 1963, you saw a good deal of Marina, -did you not in those few days? You were guiding her and advising her? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And you already testified that on at least one occasion, -or maybe two, that you had taken her to your brother's grave in the -cemetery. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; on quite a few other occasions also. - -Mr. JENNER. In addition? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. And in your memorandum or diary--I don't know how we -described that, but I think variously as memorandum or diary. - -Mr. JENNER. I would say memorandum, except the last pages a diary. - -Mr. DULLES. In your memorandum you have recounted certain problems in -connection with the funeral arrangements. Is there anything else you -would like to add to that? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I would not. - -Mr. JENNER. On the basis of your participating in the course of events -subsequent to November 22, and your continuing presence at the Inn, -and advising your sister-in-law, Marina, do you have an opinion as -to whether the Secret Service or anyone else was overly influencing -Marina? Or even that they were attempting to influence her? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe that--perhaps I did not get the full -statement there. I believe you included anyone, including the Secret -Service agents. - -Mr. JENNER. Could we confine it to the Secret Service first? - -Mr. OSWALD. All right. - -In answer to that part of the question, I would say I felt like they -were not attempting to influence Marina. - -Mr. JENNER. Would it be your impression that they were trying to be -completely fair, even leaning over backwards? Or do you have any -impression in that respect? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do have an impression and opinion on that. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you state it? - -Mr. OSWALD. That I felt at no time during our stay at the Inn of the -Six Flags during the week of November 25, 1963, including Sunday, -November 24, 1963, that the United States Secret Service agents that -were present at one time or another did anything other than to be -extremely helpful to Marina, and not to the point of attempting to -affect her judgment or to, so to speak, put words into her mouth, or -in any way lead her with relation to the events that had occurred on -November 22, 1963, or prior events that she had recorded on her tape -recording interview in the Inn of the Six Flags, or the events that -happened Sunday, November 23, 1963, until the time she left the Inn of -the Six Flags. - -In other words, they conducted themselves in a highly admirable way at -all times. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, would you give us your same opinion with respect to -the FBI? - -Mr. OSWALD. As I testified yesterday, sir; I was of the opinion on the -first and the second interview--and I refer to the first interview -as I did yesterday as an attempted interview, and I referred to the -second interview, to the best of my recollection it was the second -interview, at which time the FBI, in my opinion, kept Marina Oswald in -an interview to the extent that it had almost entirely exhausted her. - -Mr. JENNER. Is this the occasion you related to us yesterday, or is -this another one? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; this is the second occasion, when there was an -interview. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you please tell us about that, and when it occurred? - -Mr. OSWALD. This interview occurred approximately Wednesday night, -November 27, 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. Where? - -Mr. OSWALD. At the Inn of the Six Flags, at which time the FBI agents -and Mr. Tom Kelley, of the United States Secret Service, left the -room that we had been staying in with Marina Oswald and went to the -adjoining set of rooms that was located, of course, right next to -the room we had been staying, and commenced an interview. It is my -understanding that Mr. Kelley was not present at this interview. - -However, he was in the adjoining room to that set of rooms, and that he -was not permitted to be within the immediate interviewing area. - -I do not recall the exact length of this interview. But as the night -progressed, it became at least apparent to me that due to the state -of Marina Oswald at that time, considering all the things that had -occurred, and the difficulty that she was having producing enough milk -for the baby Rachel, that they were extremely disregarding her own -personal welfare at this time. - -And I did go to the adjoining rooms, and I believe Mr. Kelley opened -the door. And at that time I related to him that the babies had -awakened, and that they needed their mother, Marina Oswald. - -He immediately informed the interviewers in the next room. And as my -memory serves me, Mr. Kelley turned to me and stated he was glad I did -that, and I stated to him that the babies were still asleep, and I did -it on the very purpose of stopping the interview, too, to the length -and the nature of Marina's welfare, and to the extent that that was -quite late at night. - -Mr. DULLES. Were you present during the whole interview? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not. I was in the adjoining rooms, keeping -an eye just in case the babies did wake and so forth. - -Mr. DULLES. Was there an interpreter present at that time? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Was that FBI or Secret Service interpreter? - -Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my memory, sir, that was Mr. Lee Gopadze of -the United States Secret Service. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Gopadze was participating in the interview? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is right. - -Mr. DULLES. But only as interpreter. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion as to whether Marina was or is -involved in any plot or conspiracy in connection with this affair? - -Mr. OSWALD. May I have the first part of that question again? - -(The reporter read the question.) - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion to the contrary? - -That is, that she is not? - -Mr. OSWALD. I am of the opinion, sir, that she is not involved in any -conspiracy or was involved in any way with the event that took place on -November 22, 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you. - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question there? - -Do you have any opinion as to whether any American security service, -Secret Service, FBI, CIA, were in any way involved in any conspiracy or -plot or otherwise involved in this whole affair? - -Mr. OSWALD. Sir, you are asking me of my opinion? - -Mr. DULLES. Only your opinion, yes--obviously if you have information -or any evidence we would like to have it. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not have any evidence or information along -that line. I do have an opinion, sir, qualified to this extent. That it -is very difficult for me to feel that Lee Harvey Oswald acted entirely -on his own without any assistance whatsoever. - -Now, whether this assistance was from my--from any member of any -government agency, or just individuals, I do not know. I do feel like -he had assistance of one nature or another, sir. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Robert, that does not answer Mr. Dulles' question. And I -want you to answer his question fully. - -Mr. DULLES. My question was really directed toward any security agency -of the United States Government. - -Mr. McKENZIE. If I may state your question, Mr. Dulles, to Mr. -Oswald--his question was whether or not any security agency of the -United States Government, whether it be the FBI, the Secret Service, -the CIA, or any Government agency, had any part in a conspiracy or -plot dealing with the events of November 22, and what your opinion is -concerning the same. - -Mr. DULLES. That is correctly stated. - -Mr. OSWALD. All right. - -I would correct my answer to this extent, sir. I would be of the -opinion that no agency of the United States Government was in any way -involved with the assassination of the President of the United States -on November 22, 1963. - -Does that answer the question? - -Mr. JENNER. Or in any way involved with your brother's, Lee Harvey -Oswald. Would you go that far? - -Mr. OSWALD. When we say involved, sir--excluding the interviews that I -am aware of and so forth. Yes, sir; I would be of that opinion. - -Mr. DULLES. To which you have testified with regard to the FBI and the -Immigration and Naturalization. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate further, please, when you first -undertook to answer Mr. Dulles question--you made some references to an -opinion on your part that your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, must have -had some assistance. - -Would you please state what you had in mind there? Assistance with -what, sir? - -Mr. OSWALD. My opinion on that, sir, would be that, concluding that -Lee Harvey Oswald did actually shoot the President of the United -States and Governor Connally of Texas on November 22, 1963--I do feel -that he did have assistance to the extent that perhaps some money was -given to him, and that other types of assistance, such as perhaps -training and orientations as to perhaps the method to be used. - -I believe that would conclude my opinion on the assistance I had -reference to. - -Mr. JENNER. This is based, I gather from what you have just said, on -the assumption or opinion--I will say assumption first--that your -brother Lee Harvey Oswald did assassinate President Kennedy? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And do you have that opinion? - -Mr. OSWALD. That he did assassinate the President of the United States? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. OSWALD. On his own, sir? - -Mr. DULLES. Did he handle the gun and shoot the shots? - -Mr. JENNER. Let's take it in alternatives. You state it in your own -words. - -Mr. McKENZIE. He has stated this once before, but I am going to ask him -to state it again. - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, I would like to have that clearly stated. - -Mr. OSWALD. Sir, as I previously testified to that question, based on -the circumstantial evidence that has been put forth and that I have -read from the newspapers and general impression of the time that the -event took place, and the subsequent following days of that event, that -I would be of the opinion, purely based on these circumstantial points, -that he did actually fire the rifle that killed the President of the -United States and wounded the Governor of Texas, Mr. Connally. - -Mr. DULLES. The same would apply to the attack on Officer Tippit? - -Mr. OSWALD. I would base my opinion on Officer Tippit's death, sir, -on my conversation with the District Attorney of Dallas, Tex., on -the morning of Saturday, November 23, 1963, at which time during our -conversation he said in his mind and based on the evidence and the eye -witnesses, that he was reported to have, that there was no question to -him that Lee Harvey Oswald did in fact kill Officer J. D. Tippit in -Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And you believe that would be correct? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe that would be correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Have you had any conversation with Marina---- - -Mr. DULLES. Just one point on that. - -You have testified that you felt that your brother did have or -would have required some outside help or assistance to do what he -did--roughly to that effect, I believe. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is right. - -Mr. DULLES. Have you any idea at all or any thoughts as to what kind of -help, where that could have come from, who was involved. - -I have in mind--was this in your opinion a rightist plot, a leftist -plot, an anarchist plot? - -Mr. OSWALD. If I may take your question, sir; in the parts that you -pointed out--I believe the first part was to where and how. - -Mr. DULLES. And who. - -Mr. JENNER. May have assisted. - -Mr. OSWALD. The where and the how, sir, I am not of any opinion. -And as to who might have assisted him, as related in my diary, or -memorandum---- - -Mr. JENNER. Identify the page, please. - -Mr. OSWALD. On page 6--and I quote--"I still do not know why or how, -but Mr. and Mrs. Paine are somehow involved in this affair." - -I am still of that opinion, sir. - -And as to any other persons that I might suggest was involved in any -way in this affair, I do not know of their names nor can I identify -them in any way. - -Mr. DULLES. As this covers two of my questions---- - -Mr. JENNER. Why don't you proceed. - -Mr. DULLES. May I proceed at this time. - -I will proceed with a couple of questions I have at this time. - -Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, sir; may I interrupt you here? And I would like -to add something to my previous statement there. - -Mr. DULLES. Please, yes. - -Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps there is one other person that I feel like would -be involved in this affair, and the subsequent death of my brother, -Lee Harvey Oswald, and that was the man that actually shot Lee Harvey -Oswald, Mr. Jack Ruby or Mr. Rubenstein. And that would be the only -other party that I could possibly attempt to identify that I feel like -would have been involved and perhaps assisted Lee in this assassination. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you please give us the basis of your opinion? - -Mr. OSWALD. I am of the opinion, as previously stated, based on -newspaper accounts and magazine articles of Mr. Ruby's activities, -to the best of my remembrance, as reported in one newspaper I recall -reading after November 24, 1963, that a period of a couple of months, 2 -or 3 months, prior to Mr. Ruby's killing my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, -in a Dallas police station, that he appeared at the Dallas police -station and started making acquaintances at the Dallas police station -to the extent that he, from then on, appeared frequently and was able -to move about the Dallas police station very easily. - -Based on that and the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald, I am of the -opinion that Mr. Ruby did in fact know Lee Harvey Oswald prior to -Sunday, November 23, 19--Sunday, November 24, 1963, and that he was in -my opinion paid to silence Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. DULLES. This is based on--this opinion is based on what you have -read in the press subsequent to November 22? - -Mr. OSWALD. November 24; sir, 1963, the day of my brother's death. Up -until that time I had never heard of Mr. Jack Ruby. - -Mr. DULLES. I was including all of the press accounts that carried -through from the time of the assassination. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, the witness has referred, of course, to events -immediately preceding November 22--that is Mr. Ruby's apparent interest -in--his frequent visits to the quarters--did you say the police -department? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; the Dallas police station. - -Mr. DULLES. I was trying to get at also--to cover what you had -previously said about possible aid in connection with the assassination -of the President. - -Is that based largely on what you have read subsequent thereto? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is right. - -Mr. DULLES. This question of mine covers the whole period of your -relationship with your brother. - -Do you recall during that entire period, up to November 22, that -your brother made any comments with regard to President Kennedy of a -derogatory nature or character or of any other character? Did he ever -discuss the President with you during the whole period? Of course, he -was only President for the last 3 years. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall at any time that he ever mentioned -President Kennedy's name or referred to him in any way, either pro or -con. - -Mr. DULLES. Governor Connally--the same question. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not as Governor Connally. - -Mr. DULLES. Or as Secretary of the Navy? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; to the extent that he had mentioned his letter -to Governor Connally, his request for his assistance in correcting the -dishonorable or undesirable discharge that he had received from the -United States Marine Corps. - -Mr. DULLES. What was his comment with regard to Mr. Connally, Secretary -of the Navy, and later Governor? - -Mr. McKENZIE. If you recall, go ahead and tell him. But it is covered -in some of the letters previously introduced into testimony. - -Mr. JENNER. If there was any discussion, I would like to have that. And -I take it, Mr. Chairman, you are interested in that as well. - -Mr. DULLES. I am interested in that, because there has been some -testimony here from Mrs. Oswald to the general effect that he had not -expressed any antipathy to Secretary of the Navy and Governor Connally, -but rather the contrary. I would like to get your impression of that, -what he might have said to you on that subject. - -Mr. OSWALD. All right. - -I do recall a conversation at my home in Fort Worth, Tex., between -myself and Lee Harvey Oswald---- - -Mr. JENNER. Fix the time, please. - -Mr. OSWALD. Approximately the middle part of June 1962, at which -time the subject was brought up by him about his efforts to have the -discharge corrected to an honorable discharge, and that again he -advised me that he had written to the then Secretary of the Navy, John -B. Connally, and that Mr. Connally, or his office had replied that he -was no longer the Secretary of the Navy, and that he had turned over -the correspondence to the then Secretary of the Navy, Mr. Korth, I -believe. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Fred Korth. - -Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall any further discussion on that subject. And -he did not indicate to me the pro or con of any antipathy toward Mr. -Connally. - -Mr. DULLES. He expressed no antipathy? - -Mr. JENNER. As a person? - -Mr. OSWALD. As a person, he did not make any comment, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And did he at any time, apart from this particular event -you are now relating, at any time prior to November 22, 1963, ever -express any antipathy toward Governor Connally as a person? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you ever hear Marina Oswald express any views about -President Kennedy one way or the other? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall at any time that she has expressed -any views on Mr. Kennedy. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you recall at any time that Lee Harvey Oswald expressed -antipathy to government in general, people in authority, leaders? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall. - -Mr. DULLES. Did he express any--apart from the letters, what he said -in his letters to you, which we have--but after he returned from the -Soviet Union, and during the period you saw him, subsequent to his -return, did he ever discuss with you the failures of government, that -government itself was not good, or if the kind of government we had in -the United States was not good, as was expressed to some extent in the -letters? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall at any time other than in his -letters during the period of the latter part of 1959, at any time that -he made any derogatory remarks about any official or any particular -leader or the government of the United States. - -Mr. DULLES. And that statement would include General Walker, would it? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it most certainly would. - -Mr. DULLES. He never discussed General Walker with you? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I never heard him mention the gentleman's name. - -Mr. DULLES. Did your brother have any sort of pet hatreds, -institutions, people or otherwise, that he disliked, apart from what he -said in his letters? - -I am talking now of the period after his return from Russia. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; to my knowledge he did not. - -Mr. DULLES. I have nothing further at this time. I may have one last -question at the end. - -Do you wish to follow up on any of these points? - -Mr. JENNER. No; not right at the moment. - -Would you take your diary. There are one or two items that I would like -to clear up. - -Page 1--you speak of the old Denton plant and the new Denton plant. -Would you please locate those plants? - -Mr. OSWALD. They are both located at Denton, Tex., and they are located -approximately a mile apart, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And they are the plants of the Acme Brick Co. by whom you -are employed? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And the reason I asked you about these is that you talk -about going from the old to the new plant, and I wanted to locate them. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. The incident in New Orleans in which your brother was -distributing literature of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee--did that -come to your attention at that time? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that did not. - -Mr. JENNER. And when was the first time that you became--you ever heard -of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, or anything about it? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe this to be, sir, to the best of my remembrance, -on Friday night, November 22, 1963, at the FBI office in Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. DULLES. You are referring there, I assume, to Lee Harvey Oswald's -connection with the committee, aren't you? Or are you referring to the -fact whether he knew there was a committee. - -Mr. JENNER. Both. - -I will separate those. Did you know there was such a committee at any -time up to that occasion--had you heard of its existence? - -Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps I had read about it in the paper and not recalling -any significant value to myself I perhaps had forgotten about it. - -Mr. JENNER. Then I will ask you the other part. - -Had you heard of any connection on the part of your brother with or any -activity on his part with respect to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, -prior to November 22, 1963. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not. - -Mr. DULLES. You knew nothing of his short arrest in New Orleans? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. DULLES. You didn't even know he was arrested? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I did not even know he had traveled from Dallas, -Tex., to New Orleans, until that night of November 22, 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. Page 2 of your memorandum--you recited there that an -announcer--I assume a radio station announcer--called you. Did you find -that? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do find the area that you are referring to. The -announcer did not call me, sir. It was the radio announcer on the radio. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -And what did the announcer say? - -Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my remembrance, sir, the announcer stated -that a man identified as Lee Oswald had been arrested in connection -with a policeman's death and possibly the death of the President of the -United States on or about that approximate time. - -Mr. JENNER. And was that the first intimation of any kind or character, -or the first notice or knowledge to you, of the possible involvement -of your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, either in the murder of Policeman -Tippit or in the assassination of President Kennedy. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And where were you when that announcement was made? - -Mr. OSWALD. I was in the office of the new Denton plant when this -announcement was made, or at least I first became aware of the -announcement on the radio at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, would you give us your immediate mental reaction when -you heard that? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, my reaction to that would be somewhat -stunned. - -Mr. JENNER. Stunned in the sense of disbelieving? You just could not -absorb it? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to that extent. If I may say this. My own -personal mental attitude, through my entire life, seems to react to -trouble to the extent that I do not perhaps go to pieces, so to speak, -that I react apparently calmly in the face of adversity. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it with that disposition that you have that anything -in life is possible--no matter how extraordinary it may seem at the -moment--you retain a grip on yourself? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; or at least attempt to. - -Mr. JENNER. You were disbelieving, but it might have been--at least -your thought was that it was possible, though, you were disbelieving -at the moment? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. Then you state in your memorandum on page 2 that you -immediately called your wife Vada. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And you went directly to the phone and called her? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you say to her? - -Mr. OSWALD. I asked her first had she been listening to the television -or the radio set, and was she aware that Lee had been arrested. She -stated she had not heard this, even though she had been listening to -television. In her statement to me, to the best of my recollection at -that time, was that they had not, over the television set, referred to -Lee by name. - -Mr. JENNER. And, as I recall in your memorandum, you immediately told -her you were going to come right home. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And you did depart for home? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. On page 3 of your memorandum, you make a reference to your -brother's arrest. - -Would you find that place on page 3? The report to you of his arrest. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have it. - -Mr. JENNER. And as I recall, that was a report to you that he had been -arrested? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. By whom, and by what means? - -Mr. OSWALD. Over the telephone, by Mr. Dubose, the credit manager in -our Fort Worth general office. And, "Bob, brace yourself, your brother -has been arrested." - -Mr. JENNER. What did you say? - -Mr. OSWALD. "Yes; I know. I just heard." - -Mr. JENNER. Did Mr. Dubose elaborate? Did he say only your brother has -been arrested? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. To the best of my recollection that was his exact -words. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he add, if I may refresh your recollection, assuming it -is so, that he had been arrested in connection with the assassination -of President Kennedy, and the murder of Officer Tippit? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I believe I did not give him an opportunity, if he -wanted to state that, to complete his statement. - -Mr. JENNER. You have now given us the whole of that particular -conversation? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is right. - -If I might add--other than that as noted on page 3, that he did advise -me that my mother was trying to reach me, and gave me a number to call. - -Mr. JENNER. I wish to go to that next. You did call her? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And where was she? To where was your call directed? - -Mr. OSWALD. To Fort Worth, Tex., to which address I am not acquainted, -but the telephone number is her residence in Fort Worth, Tex. I believe -that to be 1220 Thomas Place. - -Mr. JENNER. And when you called that number, your mother was home? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -What did you say to her? - -Mr. OSWALD. My comment to her that this was Robert, and she immediately -started advising me of what she had heard, and that she had been in -contact with a Star Telegram reporter. - -Mr. JENNER. That is the Star Telegram reporter for the Dallas Star -Telegram? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, for the Fort Worth Star Telegram, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you. - -Mr. OSWALD. And that she was going to go to Dallas in the presence of -this Fort Worth Star Telegram, and she asked me did I have enough money -to fly down immediately. - -I advised her I was 35 or 30 miles away from Dallas, Tex., that I was -not in Arkansas, and that it was my intention to go to Dallas just as -fast as possible. And she stated that she believed she would stay at -the Baker Hotel, and asked me to meet her there. - -I agreed to this. However, this meeting never did take place at the -Baker Hotel. - -Mr. JENNER. A meeting did take place at the Adolphus? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. As prior testimony--at the Dallas police station, -on the night of November 22, 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. You referred to, on page 3--to a Fort Worth general office, -and a gentleman by the name of Reger. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. And that is the Fort Worth general office of the Acme Brick -Co.? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. You mentioned another gentleman there. I don't know if I -read your writing correctly. Bill---- - -Mr. OSWALD. Darwin. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you speak with him on that occasion that you related in -your notes? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. And what was the purpose of your talking with those -gentlemen? - -Mr. OSWALD. The purpose of talking to Mr. Darwin was to advise him that -I needed to go to Dallas, and his immediate reply was yes, he had just -heard--I believe he did say--about Lee, or about my brother, and that I -was to do just anything that I deemed necessary and not worry about the -office. - -And he did inform me at the latter part of this conversation that the -FBI had called the Fort Worth general office in an attempt to talk to -me or to locate me. - -Mr. JENNER. Was any suggestion made by him at that time that you get in -touch with the Fort Worth Office of the FBI? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I advised him that I would contact the FBI upon -completion of our conversation. - -Mr. JENNER. And you did so? - -Mr. OSWALD. I did so. - -Mr. JENNER. And a reference to that---- - -Mr. DULLES. By telephone? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. A reference to that appears on page 4 of your memorandum. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. I won't go into that interview. But on that occasion, and -all other occasions when you had interviews with, or were interviewed -either by the FBI or Secret Service, you related the whole truth and -nothing but the truth to the best of your knowledge and information at -the time you were being interviewed? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is right. - -Mr. JENNER. At this moment, had you contacted anyone other than those -you have now mentioned? - -Up to this point of the sequence of events? - -Mr. OSWALD. May I qualify that question--outside of my office in -Denton, Tex., sir. - -Mr. JENNER. The office in Denton, Tex., the call to your mother, the -call to Mrs. Oswald, your wife Vada, the call to the FBI office. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Are all of the contacts that you had and all of the -occasions of interviews during the period November 22, 1963, through -the following week, November 25, recorded in your memorandum? - -Mr. DULLES. I wonder if to save time we could ask him to review that -memorandum and to report if he finds that there are other calls that -were made. - -Mr. JENNER. Will that be acceptable to you, Mr. McKenzie? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Fine. - -Mr Dulles, it is a quarter of one. Being as how it is a quarter of one, -I know you have a luncheon meeting to go to. Our plane does not leave -until 5 o'clock. We have to leave here no later than 3:30. We will be -glad to have lunch and come back, if it would suit your convenience. - -Mr. JENNER. There are a couple of things, in the interests really of -Mr. Oswald, that have turned up, when I studied the memorandum last -night, that I am sure Mr. McKenzie would like to have. - -Mr. DULLES. Yes; I would like to give Mr. McKenzie plenty of time. - -If the car is there, I can wait another 5 or 10 minutes. But I think -that it would be better if I were to come back. - -We will recess at this time until 2 p.m. - -(Whereupon, at 12:45 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -Afternoon Session - -TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWARD LEE OSWALD RESUMED - - -The President's Commission reconvened at 2:30 p.m. - -Mr. DULLES. The Commission will come to order. - -Mr. JENNER. Returning to page 1 of your memorandum, as I recall your -recording of the events of that day, November 22, 1963, you first -learned of the assassination or attempted assassination as of that -moment of President Kennedy while you were at lunch with some fellow -workers. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And would you identify those fellow workers, please? - -Mr. OSWALD. If I might---- - -Mr. McKENZIE. I ask you to withdraw that. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. You don't like the expression "fellow workers"? - -Mr. DULLES. You object to the whole question, or just the way it was -phrased? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Let's rephrase it, Mr. Dulles, if I may, please. - -Mr. JENNER. I will yield to you, Mr. McKenzie. Fellow employees. - -Mr. McKENZIE. That is fine. - -Mr. JENNER. You were at lunch with fellow employees of Acme Brick Co.? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you please identify those gentlemen? - -Mr. OSWALD. They are Mr. Bill Darwin, the director of marketing -of the Acme Brick Co., Mr. Burnett Henry, director of plants and -transportation of the Acme Brick Co., Mr. Bob Oech, who is the Texas -division plant manager. - -Mr. JENNER. Of Acme Brick Co.? - -Mr. OSWALD. Of Acme Brick Co. - -And Mr. Bud Adams, who is the plant manager of both the old and new -Denton plants. - -Mr. JENNER. And it was at this time and on this occasion at lunchtime -that you first heard any intimation or otherwise of the assassination -or attempted assassination of President Kennedy? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. At the completion of our lunch, as we were -departing from the restaurant, as noted in my memorandum, page 1. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you speak on that page of driving in an automobile, -either all or some of you gentlemen. - -Whose automobile was that? - -Mr. OSWALD. All of us were in one automobile, and we were in Mr. -Burnett Henry's automobile. - -Mr. JENNER. And I take it--did the automobile have a radio in it? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did. - -Mr. JENNER. And did you gentlemen have the radio in operation? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we did. - -Mr. JENNER. And listening to it? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we were. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you listening to anything in particular? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What? - -Mr. OSWALD. We were listening to a newscast of the events that had -already taken place in Dallas, Tex., at approximately 12:30 that -afternoon. - -Mr. JENNER. And you record the time in your notebook? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--as approximately 1 p.m., sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I think we had reached page 6 of your memorandum. - -You record on pages 4 and 5--I think towards the bottom of page 4, and -the upper portion of page 5--your meeting that day or early evening -with Marina and, I believe your mother--but at least Marina. - -Is that correct? - -In Dallas? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And just for the purpose of making sure of the record, I -gather from your testimony yesterday that this was the first time that -you had seen Marina since Thanksgiving Day of 1962? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And where did this visit take place--where did you meet her -on this occasion? - -Mr. OSWALD. At the Dallas police station. - -Mr. JENNER. Did she have either or both of her children with her? - -Mr. OSWALD. She had both of her children with her. - -Mr. JENNER. That would include the infant Rachel? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you advised at any time prior to this occasion that -her second child had been born to her? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not been. - -Mr. JENNER. And this was the first information you had on this subject? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. DULLES. You probably knew that a child was contemplated. - -Mr. JENNER. Well, he might not. - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I wasn't aware of that. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you even up to that moment been advised directly or -indirectly that Marina had been pregnant, from which pregnancy the -child Rachel had been born? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not been advised. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there an interpreter present at the time you visited -with Marina; as I recall your mother was present, also. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Was there an interpreter there at that time? - -Mr. OSWALD. There was a Mrs. Paine there, who was acting as an -interpreter. - -Mr. JENNER. You have now named everybody present--yourself, Marina, and -her two children, your mother, yourself, and Mrs. Paine. - -Mr. OSWALD. With the exception, sir, that there was a police officer, -or my assumption that he was a police officer, in the room. - -Mr. JENNER. Was he in uniform or plain clothes? - -Mr. OSWALD. Plain clothes. - -Mr. DULLES. Mr. Paine was not there at this time? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he was not. - -Mr. DULLES. He came later that day, did he? - -Mr. OSWALD. Just a very few minutes after this meeting. - -Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine then acted as interpreter between yourself and -Marina and between her and others in the party? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything in the presence of everybody to her -with respect to the birth of her second child, which came as a complete -surprise to you? - -Mr. OSWALD. If memory serves me correct, sir, I did make some type of -statement to that effect. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you express surprise? - -Mr. OSWALD. I feel certain that I did, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall now--you walked into the room, and there was -Marina with these others, but with two children, one an infant that -you had not seen before. Was it immediately explained to you? Did you -inquire as to the identity of the infant? Can you reconstruct that for -us? - -Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my remembrance on that, sir, possibly -during the preceding half hour, when I was talking with my mother, she -possibly--this I am not clear--advised me of the second child. If she -did not, I was, of course, much more surprised when I walked into the -room where Marina was holding the infant. I remember looking at the -infant, as Marina held the infant, and making some type of comment -about whether or not it was a boy or girl and how old it was. - -Mr. JENNER. I don't recall this recorded in your memorandum--and it may -very well be--that the preceding half hour you had had a meeting or -conference with your mother? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And was that--in whose presence was that conference? - -Mr. OSWALD. First in the presence of two or three FBI agents, and a -Star Telegram reporter, Fort Worth Star Telegram reporter, at the -Dallas police station. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you record that event in your memorandum? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do, on page 5. - -Mr. JENNER. On page 6 there is a reference, I think I have interpreted -your writing, to a Mr. Cummings. Would you find that place on page 6? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have it. - -Mr. JENNER. Do I interpret your writing correctly? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. I believe his name to be a Lieutenant -Cummings. - -Mr. JENNER. That is what I sought. He was an officer of the Dallas -police force? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. I believe you record on page 6, that Mr. Cummings, -Lieutenant Cummings, or some other--well, I don't want to interpret -what you do record--but you received a report at that time, according -to your memorandum, of the fact of the arrest of your brother, Lee, in -connection with the murder of Officer Tippit. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that the first information you had that your brother had -actually been arrested in connection with that incident? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not. - -Mr. JENNER. When had you first received information in that respect? - -Mr. OSWALD. As my prior testimony stated, at the office, at the new -Denton plant, when Lee's name was first mentioned, stating that he had -been arrested in regards to the shooting to death of a police officer, -and possibly the President of the United States. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Page 7--did you, at the time of the events recorded on page 7, see or -request to see your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. And of whom did you make that request? - -First I would put it this way: Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald on that -day or evening? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. But you did make a request? Of whom did you make that -request? - -Mr. OSWALD. To a police officer. I cannot recall his name. He -reportedly passed on my request to captain of police, Captain Fritz. - -Mr. JENNER. And what was his response? - -Mr. OSWALD. The police officer who passed on my request asked that I -stay around, that Captain Fritz was quite busy, that he would see me -later. - -Mr. JENNER. And did you see Captain Fritz later? - -Mr. OSWALD. I did see him, but I did not talk to him. By this, I mean -he was in his glass office, within an office, and I did see him through -the glass, but I did not talk to Captain Fritz. - -Mr. JENNER. What was the disposition of your--at least as of that -day--of your request to see your brother? - -Mr. OSWALD. None, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Not decided either way? - -Mr. OSWALD. I never did receive an answer either way, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -And you eventually left the police station, did you? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. You record on page 7 that you walked to your automobile, do -you not? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, would you trace your course from the time you left the -Dallas City police office to the time you retired that evening? - -Mr. OSWALD. You are referring to the time that I first left the Dallas -police office? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes--start there, and trace your steps to the time you -retired for the evening. - -Mr. OSWALD. Well, my departure of the Dallas police office--I walked to -my car that was in a parking lot approximately seven blocks away. - -Mr. JENNER. About what time of day or evening was this? - -Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my recollection, approximately 8 o'clock at -night, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, sir. When you left the Dallas police office or -station, did you then have a definite route in mind as to where you -were going? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. You had no arrangements with anybody, and no one had any -with you, with respect to where you might or could go? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. Proceed, please. - -Mr. OSWALD. On arrival at my car in the parking lot in Dallas, Tex., I -started to drive, I did drive to Fort Worth, Tex., by Highway 80. - -Mr. JENNER. You were then--you then had in mind doing what--returning -home? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that was not the direction of home, sir. I did not -have anything in mind other than I wanted to drive and to arrange my -thoughts at that particular time. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Now, you do say, and I quote from your memorandum, "I was attempting to -arrange my thoughts and my fears." - -Do you find that expression on page 7? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please explain to the Commission what was -meant when you recorded the sentence, "I was attempting to arrange my -thoughts and my fears"? - -Mr. OSWALD. What I meant by that statement, sir--not being -disrespectful--I believe it speaks for itself in view of the happenings -of the day. To further elaborate on that, I wanted to have some time -by myself to think about the happenings of the day and the arrest of -my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, and the reference to my fears, whether -or not he could have possibly done this. He had been up to that time -either accused or arrested for the death of Police Officer J. D. -Tippit, and the investigation that was now going on in Dallas as to -the death of the President of the United States and the wounding of -Governor Connally, of Texas. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. You were then driving in your automobile. - -Did you actually reach Fort Worth? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. And then what did you do? - -Mr. OSWALD. After driving through Fort Worth, to the west side of Fort -Worth, I turned around and headed back toward Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Up to this point it was continuous driving, -except as you might have been resting or waiting a change of stoplight -or something of that character? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Did anybody contact you, or did you speak with anybody -during the period of this drive up to the moment we now have reached? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they did not. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, sir. You reversed your course and then where did -you go? - -Mr. OSWALD. When I reversed my course, I still did not have any idea -as to exactly where I was going. But I did reverse my course, and I -started driving on the turnpike between Fort Worth and Dallas. - -Mr. JENNER. Does that have a highway number? - -I notice you mentioned a Highway 80. - -Is that the same as the turnpike? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it is not. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you explain that, please? - -Mr. OSWALD. Highway 80 is on the old highway from Fort Worth to Dallas, -the turnpike being a later and more modern trafficway. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And a toll road. - -Mr. OSWALD. And a toll road. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you take Highway 80 in going to Fort Worth? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. But you returned by the toll road? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, sir. - -I take it you continued your drive--continued to drive along, while you -were attempting to rearrange your thoughts. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And you eventually arrived where? - -Mr. OSWALD. At Dallas, Tex., sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you become a guest of a hotel; did you register -anywhere? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Where? - -Mr. OSWALD. At the Statler Hilton Hotel. - -Mr. JENNER. In Dallas? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, up to that moment, having in mind your route, had -anybody contacted you, had you spoken with anybody? Up to the time that -you entered the Statler Hilton Hotel to register? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had spoken to somebody. - -Mr. JENNER. Who was that? - -Mr. OSWALD. A gas station attendant midway on the turnpike where I -stopped to buy gas. - -Mr. JENNER. But other than that incident, you had no contact with -anyone? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. You registered? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you go to your room? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. DULLES. Approximately what time was this? - -Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 10:30 p.m., that night, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. After registering, did you retire for the evening, or did -you go somewhere? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not retire for the evening. I did, in fact, -go into the coffee room of the Statler Hilton Hotel in Dallas, and have -a ham sandwich and some milk, and shortly after completing this, I -walked across the street, which was approximately a half a block down -the street, to the Dallas police station again. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -Now, up to that moment, other than was necessary for you to register -and your conversation with a waitress, in connection with your having -some evening lunch, did you have any contact with anybody? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you have any contact at all of any kind or character up -to this moment with anybody in connection with the events of the day? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -You went across the street to the Dallas City police station? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Had you had an appointment? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your purpose in going across the street for that -visit? - -Mr. OSWALD. I wanted to speak to Captain Fritz, if possible. - -Mr. JENNER. You record on page 8 that you entered the Dallas police -station, you were interviewed or consulted by some FBI agents in a -small office. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Do you recall their names? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. JENNER. I take it in any event, however, that they questioned you, -did they? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And were all the answers that you gave the truth and -nothing but the truth to the best of your information, recollection, -and belief, at that time? - -Mr. OSWALD. It most certainly was, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. All right, sir. - -When did you learn, if you ever learned, that your brother, Lee Harvey -Oswald, had in fact been charged with the assassination of President -Kennedy? - -Mr. OSWALD. At approximately midnight or a few minutes before midnight, -November 22, 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. And is that recorded on page 8 of your memorandum? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it is. - -Mr. JENNER. What was your reaction when that information was conveyed -to you? What were your thoughts? - -Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall if I had any thoughts at that particular -time, sir. I did not make any comment that I recall. I believe I just -shook my head. - -Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask you in connection with page 8, your -opinion respecting the possible involvement of your brother, Lee Harvey -Oswald, in the assassination of President Kennedy, but Mr. Dulles this -morning in his questions has covered that subject, so I will skip it. - -Now, did you see Captain Fritz that evening? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you attempt to see him? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire further with respect to an opportunity on -your part that you wished to see your brother? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had been told so many times that Captain Fritz -was quite busy, and I realize, of course, he was, and I let it go at -that. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, following your visit to the police station, which you -do record there, and therefore I won't go into it further, what did you -do that evening? - -Mr. OSWALD. I returned to my hotel, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And retired? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, between the time you left the Statler Hilton Hotel and -the time you returned there to retire, were you contacted by anybody -or did you have any conversation with anybody respecting the course of -events of the day, other than you have recorded in your memorandum? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. And I might add I did register under -my regular name at the Statler Hilton. - -Mr. JENNER. I didn't even think to ask you that, because I assumed it -was so. - -On page 9, you record and report the following morning an occasion when -you were in the barber shop of the Statler Hilton, obtaining a shave. -Isn't that correct, sir? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And you also record an observation by one or both of the -barbers, I think the gentleman who was shaving you, on the subject of -your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald deserved a fair trial like anybody else. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And then you end up that comment, "but I did leave my -barber a 50-cent tip." - -That followed an observation on your part that you did not engage in -that conversation, and you merely listened. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, would you indicate to me the significance if there -is any significance, of the expression "but I did leave my barber a -50-cent tip." - -Mr. OSWALD. The only significance, sir, that I put to it at that time -was that for the first time I was listening to somebody other than -police officers and FBI agents as to the past events of the preceding -day, and I was more or less hearing again for the first time a -reaction, either--pro and con, to these two gentlemen's opinions, who I -would take at that time would be average people, as to whether or not -Lee did have a right to a fair trial, regardless of what he had done or -been accused of. - -Mr. JENNER. And do I take it a fair interpretation of your comment is -that you were pleased that average everyday people, that their reaction -was that your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, was entitled to, and they -hoped he would obtain a fair and impartial trial when put to trial? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And your reference to a 50-cent tip was an emphasis in -your own mind of your pleasure that a spontaneous reaction of ordinary -people was that he was entitled to and they hoped he would receive a -fair and impartial trial? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you turn to page 10, please? You record events--you -were then in the district attorney's office? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. You refer to a "H. Wade." Who is H. Wade? - -Mr. OSWALD. Mr. Henry Wade. - -Mr. JENNER. And what office did he hold? - -Mr. OSWALD. Dallas District Attorney. - -Mr. JENNER. All right. - -I don't know as I interpret your handwriting clearly. It looks to me as -though you have written reference to a Jim Bowie. Who was Jim Bowie? - -Mr. OSWALD. First assistant district attorney to Mr. Henry Wade. - -Mr. JENNER. On page 10 you use--you make a reference to, or a comment -with regard to a conversation which I take it took place between you -and Mr. Wade and Mr. Bowie, either or both of them, which was "not too -informative." Do you find that? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I do see the section that you are referring -to--if I may elaborate on that. - -Mr. JENNER. I would like to have you elaborate. - -Mr. OSWALD. "Not too informative on either side." - -Mr. JENNER. Either side of what? - -Mr. OSWALD. Referring to the district attorney's office as one side and -my side as the other side. - -Mr. JENNER. On what issue? - -Mr. OSWALD. Of the conversations that we had in reference to the legal -standing of Lee Harvey Oswald or to his guilt, of the accusations that -had been--that he had been charged with. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you turn to page 12? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. There is a reference there to a conversation as to whether -Lee Harvey Oswald would say anything to you when and if you interviewed -him. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you have in mind as to the subject matter about -which Lee Harvey Oswald might speak with you? - -Mr. OSWALD. To the amount of involvement, if any, with relation to the -death of the President of the United States on November 22, 1963. - -Mr. JENNER. You were then contemplating your prospective conversation -with him? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. And you use an expression also there that you would do your -best. Do you find that? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Now, you would do your best to do what, sir? - -Mr. OSWALD. To find out. - -Mr. JENNER. From whom? - -Mr. OSWALD. From Lee Harvey Oswald, during our conversation or our---- - -Mr. JENNER. Your prospective interview? - -Mr. OSWALD. Our prospective interview, whether or not he did in fact -perform the acts, either alone or with other people, that he had been -accused of. - -Mr. JENNER. I see. - -Now, following that conversation that you do record on that page, did -you see your brother? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Where? - -Mr. OSWALD. Dallas police station. - -Mr. JENNER. Will you describe the surroundings? - -Mr. OSWALD. I was taken up on the elevator by a Dallas police -officer--Mr. Tom Kelley, inspector from Washington, D.C., U.S. Secret -Service joined us, and one agent, Mr. Mike Howard. On arrival to the -floor where Lee was being held, the police officer passed through a -glass slot in the window to another police officer the pass, I believe -signed by Captain Fritz, which authorization was for me to see Lee -Harvey Oswald. Two or three minutes went by, and I was advised that he -was now ready to see me, and I was taken to a small room to the left of -the elevators on this floor, and no one else was in this room on his -side, or my side of the glass partitions that separated the locked side -from the unlocked side. - -And Lee was standing there before me on the other side of the glass. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you have the impression that the officers had told your -brother that you were the one who was coming to see him? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. - -Mr. DULLES. Because you just said that the officer said he was ready to -see you, and I gained the impression from that---- - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--whether or not I meant by that that--I do not -believe that was my full meaning on that statement, because I was not -aware that they had actually told Lee that it was me he was about to -see. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you converse with your brother? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. By what means? - -Mr. OSWALD. By telephone, while looking at him through the glass -partition. - -Mr. DULLES. How far apart were you, roughly? - -Mr. OSWALD. Just a matter of inches. - -Mr. JENNER. How long were you in that room, conversing with your -brother? - -Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 10 minutes. - -Mr. JENNER. And as near as you can recall, what did he say to you and -what did you say to him? - -Mr. OSWALD. I do recall to the best of my ability his first statement -to me was "How are you?" - -My reply was "I am fine." - -I asked him how he was--as I observed the cuts and bruises on his face. -He said he was just fine, and that they were treating him okay. I -believe his next statement was at this time "I cannot or would not say -anything because the line is apparently tapped." - -I did not comment on that, and he rather carried the conversation for 2 -or 3 minutes. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you repeat it to us as best you can recall it, please? - -Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I do not recall this particular part of the -conversation. - -Mr. JENNER. Just do your best. - -Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry, sir, I just cannot recall that particular part -of the conversation. I might comment on that particular part to this -extent. That I felt that it was rather a mechanical conversation from -his standpoint. He seemed to be speaking very fast, and there was -approximately 2 or 3 minutes of him speaking in this nature. Then I -took the initiative and started speaking to him about the family. - -Mr. JENNER. His family? - -Mr. OSWALD. About the family, including his family, my family. And, -also, at this time, when we talked about his family in particular--I -believe my question to him was "What about Marina and the children?" - -His reply to me at that time was "Don't worry about them. The Paines -will take care of them"--that his friends, the Paines, would take care -of them satisfactorily. - -Mr. JENNER. That Lee's friends, the Paines, would take care of them -satisfactorily? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -My reply to him on that was what he considered to be his friends were -not mine. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he respond to that? - -Mr. OSWALD. Not to my recollection, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. Were you the first member of the family to see him, or had -Marina seen him the day before? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Both Marina and Marguerite had seen him before. - -Mr. OSWALD. Earlier that afternoon, sir. I was the last member of the -family to see him. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything about the new child, Rachel? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. JENNER. Did you raise that, or did he? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe I did, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. What did you say? - -Mr. OSWALD. I simply stated that I had seen the new baby and was not -aware of it at that time. - -Mr. JENNER. Not aware that the baby had been born? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Did he respond to that? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he did. - -Mr. JENNER. What did he say? - -Mr. OSWALD. He smiled and stated he had hoped for a boy rather than a -girl. His further comment was, "Well, you know how that goes." - -Mr. JENNER. He said nothing, I take it, then, by way of apology or -otherwise that you had not theretofore been informed of the birth of -this child? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. You record on page 13 of your memorandum--you use this -expression: "I was not talking to the Lee I knew." - -Do you find that? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you read that full sentence? - -Mr. OSWALD. "He talked about the Paines as his friends and that they -would take care of Marina and the children." - -Excuse me--I started too soon. - -Mr. JENNER. That is all right. - -Mr. OSWALD. "I stated who he considered to be his friends were not -necessarily mine. I did this to try to get through to him. To me his -answers were mechanical and I was not talking to the Lee I knew." - -Mr. JENNER. Were you able to get through to him? Did you feel you got -through to him? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not. - -Mr. JENNER. And would you elaborate, please, on your expression "I was -not talking to the Lee I knew"? - -Mr. OSWALD. I was referring more specifically to the first part of -our conversation, where his conversation seemed to me, as previously -stated, very mechanical. - -Mr. JENNER. You had the feeling he was not exposing himself fully to -you? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Was this the last time you ever saw your brother? - -Mr. OSWALD. Alive, sir? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was. - -Mr. JENNER. On page 14 you record a later conversation after you had -left your brother--you have an expression there along the lines that -you agreed with someone that if the conversation had been person to -person, that things might have been different. Do you find that? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. JENNER. Would you please elaborate on what you meant by that? - -Mr. OSWALD. By "we" in that paragraph, sir, on page 14, I am talking -about Mr. Tom Kelley, Inspector from Washington, D.C., United States -Secret Service, and agent, Mr. Mike Howard. - -Our discussion was of the nature--I related to them as best I could -remember my entire conversation with Lee Harvey Oswald on that -afternoon of November 23, 1963, and I was of the opinion, or perhaps -expressed, either by Mr. Kelley or Mr. Mike Howard, that had we been -placed in a room facing each other, perhaps more could have been -learned or something could have been learned about whether or not he -was actually guilty or how much he was involved in the assassination of -the President of the United States. - -Mr. JENNER. Could I elaborate on that? If you talked person to person -to him in a room, in which there was assurance there was no bugging, -nobody listening to your conversation, that you might have been able to -obtain more information from him? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Is that a fair summary? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. If you wish him to elaborate or expand or amend that, Mr. -McKenzie, it is perfectly all right with me. - -Mr. McKENZIE. No--that is all right. - -Mr. JENNER. Does Mr. Oswald wish to elaborate? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I have concluded my examination. - -On behalf of myself and the staff, I express to Mr. Oswald and to Mr. -McKenzie our appreciation for the splendid cooperation that we have -received, and the frank and direct answers that the witness has given -to all of the questions I have put to him. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Thank you, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. I am very glad that was put on the record. I entirely share -it for the Commission. - -Mr. OSWALD. If I could, possibly, sir, at this time---- - -Mr. JENNER. Would you like to add anything? - -Mr. OSWALD. I would like to make one little statement in regard to my -memorandum, on page 12. - -Mr. JENNER. Proceed. - -Mr. OSWALD. In relation or reference to my intentions at that time, as -it is now, as recorded on page 12, "Intentions then as now was to find -out the truth and nothing else." - -Thank you. - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you. - -I have one question, only one. - -You testified, I believe, yesterday that when you met your brother at -the airport, upon his return from the Soviet Union, that he seemed -somewhat disappointed that the press was not there to meet him and talk -with him. - -Do you recall, in your relations with your brother, any other instances -where he appeared to desire publicity? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it is my opinion that that was the only time that -I felt like possibly he did want publicity. At later dates, at my home, -in Fort Worth, Tex., where they stayed, on quite a few occasions, -either by telephone call or the newspaper reporter actually coming to -my home, he stated he did not want to speak to him, and he did not want -to see them, and they did not, sir, while he was in the presence of my -home. - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much. - -Mr. JENNER. May I ask one further thing? - -What is your religion? - -Mr. OSWALD. I was raised in the Lutheran religion, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. And were all three of you boys so reared? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Were you steady churchgoers? Or were you churchgoers at all? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, we were. - -Mr. JENNER. All three of you? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we were. - -Mr. JENNER. I have nothing further. - -Mr. DULLES. I want to join Mr. Jenner in expressing to you and your -counsel, Mr. McKenzie, our thanks for your full and I believe frank -testimony. I think you have been very helpful to us. I wish to thank -you for it. - -Mr. OSWALD. Thank you, sir. And we hope that we have been of some help. - -Mr. JENNER. You have. - -Mr. McKENZIE. I thank you, Mr. Chairman, for that statement, and -likewise, Mr. Jenner, I appreciate on behalf of myself and Mr. Oswald -your statement for the record. - -I only have a few brief questions, Mr. Chairman, if I may, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. These are to be put to your client? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. Although I will say this at this time--that -the Chair has very generously, and Mr. Jenner likewise, granted me the -opportunity to question or ask Mr. Oswald questions as we proceeded -along. - -Robert, there is a contract which has been introduced into the record, -and I believe it is Commission Exhibit No. 277, which contract is dated -December 9, 1963, and it is signed by Marina N. Oswald and yourself, -and approved as to form by John M. Thorne, Attorney, and James H. -Martin. In this contract, it provides that Marina Oswald has appointed -you as an assistant business manager to Mr. Martin. And in the last -paragraph of the contract there is a statement to the effect that -she has employed the firm of Thorne and Leach, attorneys-at-law, and -further agreed that their services will be available at all times to -yourself and that you will use same as required by you. - -Now, my question to you is this: Have you ever at any time employed Mr. -John M. Thorne to represent you? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Has Mr. Thorne ever represented you in any capacity? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he has not. - -Mr. McKENZIE. All right, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. May I just ask one question? - -Mr. McKenzie now is your appointed lawyer? - -Mr. OSWALD. He is my selected lawyer. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Did Lee Harvey Oswald ever tell you or advise you, or has -Marina N. Oswald told you of any trips that Lee took, or cities that -he visited in Russia, other than Moscow, Minsk, or the hunting trip he -took while he was in Russia reported in your diary? Or reported not in -your diary, but reported in the letters to you? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Do you know of any cities or any places that he might -have gone in Russia, other than the two cities that I have named, and -the hunting trip that he took as reported in the letter to you, which -has been introduced into evidence? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not aware of any other cities. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Did Marina N. Oswald have either June Oswald, her -two-year-old child, or Rachel, her infant child, baptized, to your -knowledge? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she has. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And where was that, sir? - -Mr. OSWALD. It is my understanding that this took place in Dallas, -Tex., some time in the year of 1963, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. You are speaking now of June? - -Mr. OSWALD. I am speaking now of June. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Has the baby Rachel been baptized as of this time? - -Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Do you know what faith June was baptized in? By faith I -refer to what particular church or denomination. - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, this was the Greek Orthodox Church. - -Mr. McKENZIE. From your acquaintance with Marina Oswald, and based on -your discussions with her, both in your home and elsewhere, including -cemetery visits which you have made with her, do you now consider -and believe that Marina N. Oswald is a Christian and believes in the -teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? - -Mr. OSWALD. I do, sir. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Has she professed such faith to you? - -Mr. OSWALD. Not directly, sir--only by implication, sir. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Do you believe or have you formed an opinion now, based -on your discussions and observations of Marina Oswald, as to whether or -not Marina N. Oswald is a Communist or a Soviet agent, either now or at -any time since you met her at Dallas, Love Field, in June of 1962? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not believe that she is any of those things. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Now, do you think she is a Communist? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Do you have any opinion as to whether or not she is at -this time or since she arrived in this country? - -Mr. OSWALD. I am of the opinion that she is not, based on my -observations of her reactions and her conversations with me. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Oswald, have I or has anyone at any time coached -or briefed you--and if you don't understand what I mean by the word -"coached" please tell me so--as to what you should testify here before -this Commission, other than my cautioning you not to speculate or use -conjecture? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; you have not. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Has anyone? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they have not. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Have you told the Commission---- - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--that anyone includes any member of the staff of -this Commission? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And likewise it includes, does it not, any member of the -FBI, or the Secret Service or any other Federal agency? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And the same would apply to any State agency of Texas? - -Mr. OSWALD. Sir, that would apply to anybody, no matter what his -position with any government agency or individual. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Now, have you told the Commission during the hearings -here, since you have been testifying, only the facts as you knew them, -or the facts as you know them now? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And have you expressed opinions or speculated only when -the Commission or Mr. Jenner or myself have asked you to do so? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Have you testified, Mr. Oswald, truthfully to the best of -your recollection in each instance? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And in the event you have inadvertently made any mistake -on dates, addresses, or facts, do you now ask the Chairman's permission -to change your answer and correct any mistakes which you might have -made in the event a mistake is at any time hereafter called to your -attention? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do so. - -Mr. DULLES. Well, could I supplement that? In the event that you, -yourself, find any mistakes--I think you said if it was called to his -attention---- - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I certainly will. - -Mr. DULLES. May I just add here--I hope that that will be looked over, -the record will be looked over fairly promptly, so that we can make any -corrections within a reasonable length of time. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir; as soon as we receive it, Mr. Chairman, we will -do so. - -Mr. JENNER. May I say in that connection, Mr. McKenzie, if you could -have him dictate that tape covering his memorandum, we can perhaps -actually incorporate that in the record, which you will receive. - -Mr. McKENZIE. We cannot do it today, because we won't get to Dallas -until late this evening. And I am going to church tomorrow and teach -Sunday school and be with my children. - -Mr. OSWALD. And I with mine, sir. - -Mr. McKENZIE. I will make arrangements the first of the week to have it -done. - -Mr. JENNER. Send it to Mr. Rankin. - -Mr. McKENZIE. I shall. - -If you receive from any source any further documentary information or -any type of information which might be considered as evidence by this -Commission, do you now ask the Commission's approval and permission to -deliver such documents or information, if any, to the FBI, so that the -information may be immediately forwarded to the Commission to assist in -preparing its final report? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. DULLES. Is that satisfactory to you, Mr. Jenner? - -Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Likewise, do you authorize me to deliver any like -information or documents which I may receive, discover or otherwise -have in my possession to the same agencies for the same purpose? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I most certainly do. - -Mr. JENNER. Here, again, Mr. McKenzie, if anything is delivered, would -you have it delivered to Mr. Rankin, rather than to me? - -Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. - -Have you ever applied for relief, unemployment compensation, or any -other form of welfare aid? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And I refer there, sir, to both the Federal Government -aid programs and likewise any aid program of the State of Texas or the -State of Louisiana. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct--or any other State of the United States. - -Mr. McKENZIE. I believe that you have previously testified to this, but -I want to make it absolutely clear. - -Do you now believe that Lee Harvey Oswald was at any time an agent -of any agency of the United States Government, from the time that he -departed for Russia, until the day of his death on November 24, 1963? - -Mr. OSWALD. I do not believe that he was an agent of any government. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Prior to November 22, 1963, did you know of any -activities of Lee Harvey Oswald relative to the Fair Play for Cuba -Committee or his arrest in New Orleans, La.? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Oswald, what has been your position insofar as the -press is concerned, since the unfortunate and tragic happenings of -November 22, 1963? - -Mr. OSWALD. My position with any news media, whether it be the -newspapers, magazines, television, et cetera, has been that--no -comment, and the only comment I ever made to any of them, at a very -early date, was that I would abide by the decision of the Commission -which is now known as the Warren Committee. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Have you ever sought to elaborate or give any statement -to the press at any time? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Do you recall any statements made by Marina N. Oswald -expressing sympathy for President's family? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And if you will, state the source of your recollection -and where the statement was made, and if she has ever made any -statement to that effect to yourself. - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she did make a statement directly to myself. To -the best of my recollection, this was first done on Monday, November -25, 1963, at the Inn of the Six Flags, at Arlington, Tex., as Marina -and myself observed the beginning of the funeral for the President of -the United States. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And was there anyone else present at that time? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there were other people in the room. Whether or -not they overheard our conversation, I do not know, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. You observed that on television, I gather? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Were there any Secret Service agents there at that time? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Were they in the room with you and Marina Oswald? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they were. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And did they overhear any expressions of sympathy which -she might have said? - -Mr. OSWALD. It is possible that they did, sir. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Have you ever testified in a lawsuit or given a -deposition before a court reporter prior to your appearance before this -Commission? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Now, you have testified that you have not given any -statements to the press other than the statement to the effect that you -would abide with and be satisfied with the report of this Commission. - -Since arriving in Washington, and since you have been sworn under oath -before the Commission, have you given any statement to the press, other -than saying goodnight, or good afternoon, or good morning? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe at one time I did say thank you. Other than that, -sir, I have not. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Now, have you read an article here in the New York Times -of Saturday, February 22, 1964, on page 22 of the first section, -entitled, "Russian training of Oswald hinted"? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Do you know Mr. Anthony Lewis? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. - -Mr. McKENZIE. All right, sir. - -Have you ever talked with Mr. Lewis? - -Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my knowledge. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Now, you have testified this afternoon following our -lunch break that you visited Lee Oswald in the Dallas County Jail. Do -you recall that testimony--the testimony of just a few minutes ago? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Have you previously testified to that before the -Commission, to your recollection? - -Mr. OSWALD. To my recollection, I believe we at least touched on that -during our first session on February 20, 1963. - -Mr. McKENZIE. When you were in the jail--and I believe it is in -the sixth floor of the Dallas County Jail--I mean the Dallas City -Jail--talking with your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, did you ask him at -that time if he had committed the crime? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had. - -Mr. McKENZIE. You did ask him that question? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And what did he say? - -Mr. OSWALD. I put it to him as stated in my diary, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Identify the page, please. - -Mr. OSWALD. On page 12, "I do not recall everything he said. I did try -to point out to him that the evidence was overwhelming that he did kill -Police Officer Tippit and possibly the President. To this he replied -'do not form any opinion on the so-called evidence.'" - -Mr. JENNER. Is that all he said? He said nothing else? - -Mr. OSWALD. To that---- - -Mr. JENNER. In response to you? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. At no time when you interviewed him over the telephone -while you were in that--the sixth floor--did he affirmatively deny -either that he had shot Officer Tippit or that he shot the President? - -Mr. OSWALD. He did not admit to anything whatsoever. - -Mr. JENNER. Nor did he deny it affirmatively--other than the remark -that you have recorded in your memorandum? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. - -Mr. McKENZIE. In other words, Mr. Oswald, when you were talking there -with your brother, in the city jail of Dallas, he did not deny that he -had killed Officer Tippit, nor did he deny that he had assassinated -President Kennedy? - -Mr. OSWALD. He did not admit to anything, sir. - -Mr. McKENZIE. And he didn't deny anything? - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Have you, or haven't you told this Commission that you -believed a denial? - -Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mr. McKenzie, I don't understand that question. - -Mr. McKENZIE. It says in this article that he told the Commission that -he believed the denial. - -Since there was no denial, there was nothing for you to believe. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Up to this moment he has never testified as to that, to my -recollection. - -Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct. - -Again, based on the evidence that you have read or heard in newspaper -articles, whether it be evidence or not, but based on everything that -you have heard or read, you now believe that your brother, Lee Harvey -Oswald, did kill Mr. Tippit and assassinated President Kennedy, is that -correct? - -Mr. OSWALD. Purely on the circumstantial evidence that has been brought -to my attention or that I have read. - -Mr. McKENZIE. I believe that is all, Mr. Chairman. - -Mr. JENNER. May I ask one question? - -Mr. Oswald, until this afternoon, when you recalled orally here the -circumstances and the event of your discussion with your brother on the -sixth floor of the Dallas--is that Dallas County? - -Mr. McKENZIE. No; it is Dallas City Jail. - -Mr. JENNER. Dallas City Jail--had I had any conversation with you at -all on that subject? - -Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you. - -Mr. McKENZIE. That is all, Mr. Chairman. - -Mr. DULLES. That will then conclude the testimony of Mr. Robert Oswald, -with the understanding that the Commission might later wish to recall -him if any facts are adduced that would make that desirable. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Dulles--is he now released from his oath to the -Commission, subject to recall and being resworn? - -Mr. DULLES. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. That is correct. That is my understanding. - -In any event, I so agree, Mr. Chairman. - -Mr. McKENZIE. Thank you, sir. - -I would like to state to the Commission one further thing, Mr. -Dulles, if I may. We very much appreciate, and by "we" I mean myself -as counsel, and Mr. Oswald as a witness, the manner in which the -Commission and its counsel have conducted the interrogation of Mr. -Oswald. We further appreciate the opportunity to be in Washington -and to be heard, and hope that in some manner that we may assist in -shedding some light that will assist this Commission in making its -final report, and that the true facts of this situation will be known -to the President of the United States to use at his discretion. - -Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much, Mr. McKenzie. - -Mr. JENNER. May I ask one more question? - -Up until this afternoon when I questioned you, possibly there might -have been a question this morning on the subject of any opinion which -you might have held dealing with whether your brother did or did not -participate in the shooting of Officer Tippit or the assassination of -President Kennedy, had I had any conversation with you on that subject? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe you had. - -Mr. JENNER. When was that? - -Mr. OSWALD. I believe this was on the first session, during the first -session on Wednesday, February 20, 1964. - -Mr. JENNER. Was it in this room? - -Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was. - -Mr. JENNER. That is all I meant. I had no separate--no conversation -with you on the subject other than as I might have put a question to -you in the presence of the Commission. - -Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. - -Mr. JENNER. Thank you. - -Mr. DULLES. And a part of the record. - -Mr. JENNER. And as part of the record; yes, sir. - -Mr. DULLES. We will adjourn. - -(Whereupon, at 3:40 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -_Thursday, February 27, 1964_ - -TESTIMONY OF JAMES HERBERT MARTIN - -The President's Commission met 9:25 a.m. on February 27, 1964, at 200 -Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. - -Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman -Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and -Allen W. Dulles, members. - -Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Norman Redlich, -assistant counsel; Paul W. Leech, counsel to James Herbert Martin; -Charles Murray and Charles Rhyne, observers; and Dean Robert G. Storey, -special counsel to the attorney general of Texas. - - -The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. - -Let the record show that Mr. Martin, first that Commissioners Dulles -and Ford and I are present. - -Mr. Martin, the witness, is here with his lawyer; would you state your -name for the record, please? - -Mr. LEECH. Paul Leech. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Leech, I understand you are a partner of Mr. Thorne -who was here representing Mrs. Oswald. - -Mr. LEECH. Yes, sir. - -The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, I will just read an opening statement to you -that we make for the record and for the benefit of the witness each -time we convene. - -On November 29, 1963, President Lyndon B. Johnson issued Executive -Order No. 11130 appointing a Commission "to ascertain, evaluate and -report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late -President John F. Kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of the man -charged with the assassination." - -On December 13, 1963, Congress adopted Joint Resolution S.J. 137 -which authorizes the Commission, or any member of the Commission, or -any agent or agency designated by the Commission for such purpose, -to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive -evidence. - -On January 21, 1964, the Commission adopted a resolution authorizing -each member of the Commission and its General Counsel, J. Lee Rankin, -to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive -evidence. - -On January 21, 1964, the Commission adopted a resolution authorizing -each member of the Commission and its General Counsel, J. Lee Rankin, -to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive -evidence concerning any matter under investigation by the Commission. - -The purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of Mr. James -Herbert Martin who has acted as the business manager of Mrs. Marina -Oswald, the widow of Lee Harvey Oswald, who, prior to his death, was -charged with the assassination of President Kennedy. In view of Mr. -Martin's close association with Mrs. Oswald it is the intention of this -Commission to ask Mr. Martin questions concerning this association and -any and all matters related to the assassination, and to the subsequent -killing of Lee Harvey Oswald. - -Mr. Martin has been furnished with a copy of this statement and a copy -of the rules adopted by the Commission for the taking of testimony or -the production of evidence. Mr. Martin has also been furnished with a -copy of Executive Order No. 11130 and Congressional Resolution S.J. -Res. 137 which set forth the general scope of the Commission's inquiry -and its authority for the examining of witnesses and the receiving of -evidence. - -I should also like to read into the record at this time a copy of a -letter dated February 22, 1964, to Mr. Martin from Mr. J. Lee Rankin, -General Counsel of the Commission, which reads as follows: - -"Dear Mr. Martin: - -"Confirming discussions between the staff of this Commission and John -M. Thorne, Esquire, your counsel, we hereby request that you appear -before this Commission at 9:00 a.m., on February 27, 1964, at Room 400, -200 Maryland Avenue, NE., Washington, D.C., for the purpose of giving -sworn testimony concerning your association with Mrs. Marina Oswald and -your knowledge of the facts relating to the assassination of President -Kennedy and the subsequent killing of Lee Harvey Oswald. - -"You are hereby requested to produce before this Commission at -that time any and all books, records, papers, notes, and documents -pertaining to your association with Marina Oswald and your knowledge -of the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and -the subsequent killing of Lee Harvey Oswald including, but not limited -to, those books, records, papers, notes, and documents pertaining to -(1) your business dealings with Marina Oswald, (2) your activities -as Marina Oswald's business representative, (3) Marina Oswald's -business dealings with others, (4) your dealings with Marina Oswald in -connection with the preparation of any testimony, interviews, public -appearances, story, article, or other narrative concerning her personal -history or the assassination of President Kennedy and the killing -of Lee Harvey Oswald, and (5) your dealings with Marina Oswald in -connection with her appearance before this Commission. - -"The Commission is authorized to reimburse you for your expenses -in connection with your appearance before the Commission, and the -necessary details will be arranged when you are here. - -"Attached herewith are copies of Executive Order No. 11130, dated -November 29, 1963, S.J. Res. 137--88th Cong., 1st Session, and the -rules of this Commission in connection with hearings conducted for the -purpose of taking of testimony or the production of evidence." - -I assume, gentlemen, you did receive a copy of that letter? - -Mr. LEECH. Yes, we did. - -THE CHAIRMAN. I will not be able to be here at all times today because -we have, we are hearing arguments in the Court at 10 o'clock and I must -leave to be there, but Mr. Dulles anticipates being here all day so in -my absence he will conduct hearings. - -Congressman Ford has some unfinished business at the Congress as I have -at the Court so he probably will not be here all through the day. - -Mr. Martin, will you please rise and be sworn? - -Do you solemnly swear in this proceeding before the Commission to tell -the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? - -Mr. MARTIN. I do. - -Mr. LEECH. Your Honor, who are these other gentlemen here. I haven't -been introduced to them. - -The CHAIRMAN. This is Mr. Charles Rhyne, who represents the American -Bar Association. - -Mr. LEECH. Former president of the American Bar Association? - -The CHAIRMAN. Yes, and Mr. Murray who is also in the Public Defender's -office of the District of Columbia. - -Mr. RANKIN. He represents Mr. Walter Craig, too. - -The CHAIRMAN. He and Mr. Rhyne represent Mr. Walter Craig. - -Mr. LEECH. Who is that? - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Craig is the President of the Bar Association and was -asked to act in order to protect or advise the Commission as to any -interests of Lee H. Oswald because of--you probably saw the notice in -the paper and so forth. - -Mr. LEECH. You represent the man from Arizona? - -Mr. RHYNE. Walter E. Craig, President of the American Bar Association. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Storey is the representative of the Attorney General of -Texas. - -Mr. LEECH. He is Dean of the Southern Methodist Law School. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -The CHAIRMAN. Of course, this is Professor Redlich of our staff. And -this is the reporter. - -All right, Mr. Rankin will conduct the examination. - -Will you proceed, Mr. Rankin? - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Leech, does the reporter have your full name? - -Mr. LEECH. Yes, sir; he does. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Martin, will you tell us your name, please? - -Mr. MARTIN. James Herbert Martin. - -Mr. RANKIN. Where do you live? - -Mr. MARTIN. Dallas, Tex. - -Mr. RANKIN. How long have you lived there? - -Mr. MARTIN. Since 1956. - -Mr. RANKIN. What is your occupation? - -Mr. MARTIN. Hotel executive. - -Mr. RANKIN. Are you now connected with the Six Flags Motel? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were you at one time? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And during what period? - -Mr. MARTIN. From May of 1962 until January 1, 1964. - -Mr. RANKIN. What was your position with that institution? - -Mr. MARTIN. Resident manager. - -Mr. RANKIN. While you were at the Six Flags Inn, did you become -acquainted with Marina Oswald? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. About when was the first time that you met her? - -Mr. MARTIN. I guess it was November 24. - -Mr. RANKIN. Of what year? - -Mr. MARTIN. 1963. - -Mr. RANKIN. And will you tell us how that acquaintance started? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, I was called by the Tarrant County sheriff on Sunday. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who was that? - -Mr. MARTIN. Lew Evans. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mr. MARTIN. About 11 o'clock in the morning, and they wanted a room -where they could question the Oswald family. I told them they could -have it, and about four o'clock, I guess, four or four-thirty, I don't -know the exact time they came in with the whole family, and we gave -them several rooms to accommodate the family. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were you introduced to Marina Oswald at that time? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, I don't believe I was ever really introduced to her. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did you come to know her then? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, just through association. - -Mr. RANKIN. I see. Did you know the county sheriff before that? - -Mr. MARTIN. Vaguely, not to any great extent. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know of any particular reason why he chose your -establishment? - -Mr. MARTIN. Because of the central location between Dallas and Fort -Worth and the isolation of it. - -Mr. RANKIN. At that time who came to stay with you at the Six Flags -Inn, Marina and some of her family? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, Marina and the two children and Robert and Marguerite -Oswald. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did they have several suites there? - -Mr. MARTIN. They had one room, well, one suite, room 423 and 424 and -then we gave them two other rooms for the Secret Service. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone make arrangements with you besides the county -sheriff about how this would be handled? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, Secret Service. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who, for the Secret Service? - -Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, Charles Kunkel, and Howard--I can't remember his -first name. - -Mr. RANKIN. Secret Service man? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Where was this arrangement made? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, down in the room in the suite. - -Mr. RANKIN. There at the Six Flags Inn? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And the three of you were there together, were you? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, there were also Arlington police officers and several -other Secret Service men. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who participated in the conversation? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, I don't know who else was in the conversation. It was -primarily between Kunkel and Howard and myself. - -Mr. RANKIN. What was said in regard to this arrangement at that time? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, they said that they would need these rooms to -accommodate the family and they had no idea how long they would need it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was anything said about the price and who would make -payment? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. They said that the Government would take care of the -room rate on it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you have to submit this matter to any of your superiors -or did you make the decision at that time? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, I made the decision. - -Mr. RANKIN. Had you had any prior dealings with the Secret Service -people before that? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. How long did Marguerite Oswald stay there? - -Mr. MARTIN. I believe she left on Friday. - -Mr. RANKIN. What day? - -Mr. MARTIN. Or maybe Thursday. Would be the 28th or 29th, I am not -certain as to the exact date. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any incidents where Marguerite Oswald sought -to leave prior to the Thursday or Friday that she left? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't recall anything like that. - -Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever assisted the local police officers in any -other way at your Six Flags Inn before that? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. In a general way what was the nature of that assistance. - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, of course, I can't recall any specific instances. I -know we cooperate with the law enforcement officers in anything they -have to ask us, and we cooperate with them, giving them information. I -don't know of any particular incidents other than---- - -Mr. RANKIN. Would you describe briefly just where these rooms were -in your Inn and where the Secret Service were compared with Marina -Oswald's rooms? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, Marina Oswald was in Rooms 423 and 424, which were -connecting rooms, and the rooms faced away from the entrance to the -motel. And then the Secret Service had 422 and 421 also. They were -rooms next door to it, but not connecting. - -Mr. RANKIN. After Marina first came there did the Secret Service have -someone on duty while she was at the Six Flags? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. All the time? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall who that was? - -Mr. MARTIN. Let's see--well, I remember his first name now, Mike -Howard, and Charles Kunkel, Lee Gopadze was there part of the time. -They seemed to change quite frequently. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did they have someone there 24 hours of the day? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. - -Mr. RANKIN. During this early period did you ever talk to Marina? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, except to say hello. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether she talked English much at that time? - -Mr. MARTIN. From all appearances, she didn't. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone visit you while she was there at the Six Flags -during this early period that you recall? - -Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge other than the FBI. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you invite Marina and her family to come to your home -for Thanksgiving? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us how that happened? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, it just happened. I don't know, I think I asked -Robert if he would like to come out for dinner, Thanksgiving dinner. -They weren't going to have a very happy Thanksgiving, and living in -those rooms was pretty cramped. - -Mr. RANKIN. When was this that you asked Robert? - -Mr. MARTIN. I believe on Wednesday. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you include Robert and his wife as well as Marina and -her family in the invitation? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, Robert's wife wasn't there, but I included Robert. He -came out to the house also. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did Marina then come to your house for Thanksgiving? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who all came at that time? - -Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, there were Marina and June Lee, and Robert, -Charlie Kunkel, and one Arlington police officer. I don't recall his -name. - -Mr. RANKIN. What time of the day did they come? - -Mr. MARTIN. I believe it was 3 or 4 o'clock in the afternoon. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you invite Marguerite Oswald to Thanksgiving dinner at -that time, too? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to her about it? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. As I recall I just asked, I believe I just asked Robert -if they would like to come, they were welcome if they would like to -come. - -Mr. RANKIN. You mean by that that you included Marguerite Oswald in -your invitation? - -Mr. MARTIN. I don't think I named her. I don't know if she had left by -then. - -Mr. RANKIN. You didn't deliberately exclude her from the invitation? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Then did you at some time discuss with Marina the -possibility of her staying at your home rather than at the Six Flags -Inn? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, I discussed it with Secret Service first. - -Mr. RANKIN. When was that? - -Mr. MARTIN. Thursday or Friday. - -Mr. RANKIN. Before this Thanksgiving dinner or afterwards? - -Mr. MARTIN. I don't recall. I know the Secret Service made a statement -that they were quite concerned as to where Marina would go after she -left the Inn. They had no place to put her and they had no idea where -she was going to go. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall when they made that statement? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, it was Wednesday or Thursday. - -Mr. RANKIN. At that time did you say anything about that? - -Mr. MARTIN. I told them that if they couldn't find any place for her -that I would be glad to take them into my home. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was anything said about what compensation you would receive -for that? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. There was no compensation considered. - -Mr. RANKIN. You didn't suggest any and they didn't, is that right? - -Mr. MARTIN. That is correct. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss that idea with Marina at all? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. They, the Secret Service told Robert about it, and---- - -Mr. RANKIN. How do you know that? - -Mr. MARTIN. Because he told me they had. And then Robert thanked me and -said that it would work out all right. - -Mr. RANKIN. Before you made that suggestion had you had any discussions -about selling any rights to Marina's stories or anything of that -character? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. With any media? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did you happen to make this offer? - -Mr. MARTIN. I felt sorry for her. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you limit the offer to Marina and her children? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was there any talk at that time about Robert living at your -home, too? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Anything about Marguerite living there? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss this proposal with your wife before you -made it? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Could you describe for the Commission briefly your home, -how the layout of it was? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, it is a three-bedroom house, with a living room, -dining room, den and kitchen, two baths. - -Mr. RANKIN. All of it on the same floor? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Could you give us an idea of where the bedrooms were from -the rest of the house? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, as you come in the front door you go through one end -of the living room, and then into a hallway, and the bedrooms are along -the hall. - -Mr. RANKIN. And is yours and Mrs. Martin's bedroom at the end of the -hall? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Does it have a private bath associated with that suite? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And all of the rooms of the house are on one floor, is that -right? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And then where was Marina's bedroom from yours? - -Mr. MARTIN. The next room. - -Mr. RANKIN. And where was the bath that she used? - -Mr. MARTIN. Right across the hall from it. - -Mr. RANKIN. And then after Marina's room right next to hers? - -Mr. MARTIN. Is a children's bedroom. - -Mr. RANKIN. That was the closest one to the living room, is that right? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. About how large was your bedroom? - -Mr. MARTIN. I think it is about 14 by, maybe 14 by 14, 16. - -Mr. RANKIN. How large was Marina's room? - -Mr. MARTIN. About 11 by 13. - -Mr. RANKIN. And the children's room? - -Mr. MARTIN. About the same size. - -Mr. RANKIN. What children do you have? - -Mr. MARTIN. I have a 14-year-old boy and a 12-year-old boy and a -6-year-old girl. - -Mr. RANKIN. And they are all living at home? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And they have been throughout this period, have they? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Had you discussed the assassination with Marina at all -prior to the time she came to live with you? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Had you discussed any financial arrangements with her or -the idea that you should manage her affairs before she came to live -with you? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. When did the donations for Marina and her children start to -come in, do you recall the date? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was it before she came to live with you? - -Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge, I didn't--I think it started after she -came into the house. - -The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rankin, if you will excuse me now, gentlemen, I am -going to retire to my Court work and Mr. Dulles, will you conduct the -hearing? If you are still in session I will be here this afternoon to -see you, if not, gentlemen, I am very glad to have seen you, both of -you. Give Mr. Thorne my regards, please. - -(At this point, the Chief Justice Warren left the hearing room.) - -Mr. DULLES. Will you proceed, please. - -Mr. RANKIN. When did the idea of your being Marina's business manager -first come up. - -Mr. MARTIN. It was after the first of December. She had been there -about 3 or 4 days, I guess. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is 1963? - -Mr. MARTIN. 1963. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us how it came up? - -Mr. MARTIN. One of the Secret Service agents suggested that I get an -attorney for Marina. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who was that? - -Mr. MARTIN. Lee Gopadze. - -Mr. RANKIN. Where did this conversation occur? - -Mr. MARTIN. In the den. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who was there? - -Mr. MARTIN. I think Marina was there. - -Mr. RANKIN. Anyone else? - -Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge. - -Mr. RANKIN. About what time of the day, do you recall? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Gopadze made this suggestion, he made it to you, did he? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he say that in English? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you know whether Marina understood it? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, he had discussed it with her. - -Mr. RANKIN. How do you know? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, he was talking about it to her about something in -Russian. - -Mr. RANKIN. And then he turned to you, did he? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about who you should get as a lawyer -for her? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you say about that? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, I told him I would be happy to get one for her. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you do that? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. John Thorne. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did you happen to select John Thorne? - -Mr. MARTIN. I had known him from association at the Inn. - -Mr. RANKIN. Had he ever acted as your attorney? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. What was the nature of your acquaintance with him? - -Mr. MARTIN. Just a passing acquaintance. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss with Marina the qualifications of this -attorney? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything about it to Mr. Gopadze? - -Mr. MARTIN. I, like I probably mentioned, John had handled some movie -work and he would probably know something about the area in which we -were talking. - -Mr. RANKIN. After you had made the suggestion of Mr. Thorne as a lawyer -did you do anything about it? - -Mr. MARTIN. I called Mr. Thorne. - -Mr. RANKIN. On the telephone? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And then what happened? - -Mr. MARTIN. He came over, I believe, the next day and talked to Marina -and Lee Gopadze and myself. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did he talk to Marina? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, through Lee Gopadze. - -Mr. RANKIN. As an interpreter? - -Mr. MARTIN. As an interpreter. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Gopadze is fluent in both Russian and English? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Could you tell what Mr. Gopadze said to Marina? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss the nature of this retainer with Mr. Thorne -at that time? - -Mr. MARTIN. I don't understand the question. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss what he would be doing if he was employed -as her lawyer? - -Mr. MARTIN. Handling all her legal work. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell him that? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And did you say anything about what the legal work would -involve, the kind of work it would be? - -Mr. MARTIN. I don't believe so at the time. I may have mentioned -something about her story or something like that. I don't recall the -conversation. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was anything said about the donations at that time? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss what he would be paid by way of -compensation? - -Mr. MARTIN. Not at that time. It was later. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was anything said by you or Mr. Thorne about his -qualifications to act as her attorney? - -Mr. MARTIN. Not that I recall. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were formal arrangements made about the employment of Mr. -Thorne as counsel for Marina? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. When was that done? - -Mr. MARTIN. I believe that was December 6. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall anything else that was said or done at this -conversation when Mr. Thorne came over and talked to Marina through the -interpreter and you were present? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was there a formal contract executed between Marina and Mr. -Thorne at some time? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. You think that was December 6 to your recollection. - -Mr. MARTIN. Either the 5th or the 6th. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, before that contract was executed did you discuss it -with Mr. Thorne? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was Marina present when you did? - -Mr. MARTIN. I don't believe so. - -Mr. RANKIN. Where did this discussion occur? - -Mr. MARTIN. I believe it was at the Inn. - -Mr. RANKIN. Your office? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, in the coffee shoppe. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who else was present. - -Mr. MARTIN. No one. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you then go over the terms of the contract with him? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. I think I left that up to him. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were you then the manager of Marina's affairs? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who were you acting for in regard to that arrangement? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, acting for Marina although I had no--I had no -contract to that effect. - -Mr. RANKIN. You were still acting under this suggestion by Mr. Gopadze -that some counsel be gotten for her? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you did go over the terms of this contract at that -time, did you? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you make any suggestions for changes? - -Mr. MARTIN. That we delete it, on my contract, we deleted any gifts or -contributions. - -Mr. RANKIN. That is on the draft of the contract for you to act as -manager? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And when did that idea of your acting as manager come up? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, I believe it was the same day that John Thorne came -out to talk to Marina and to Gopadze. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who brought it up? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you suggest that you act as manager? - -Mr. MARTIN. I don't believe I suggested it. We were discussing the need -for a manager, and I don't know who brought it up as far as my being -the one. - -Mr. RANKIN. At that time was there any discussion about what -compensation you would have? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. When you were talking to Mr. Thorne in the coffee shoppe -was there a discussion about how much compensation he would receive for -acting as attorney? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. What was said about that? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, just that it would be 10 percent. - -Mr. RANKIN. Had you ever discussed that before with him? - -Mr. MARTIN. Not that I recall. - -(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.) - -Mr. DULLES. Senator, we welcome you. - -Senator COOPER. Thank you. - -Mr. DULLES. Would you proceed? Would you just resume for a moment where -we are in the proceedings? - -Mr. RANKIN. We are discussing the contract between Mr. Martin and -Marina and also how Mr. Thorne became counsel under the contracts that -were made. - -Senator COOPER. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. This 10-percent figure for John Thorne and the contract -with regard to his appointment then was his suggestion so far as you -know? - -Mr. MARTIN. As far as I know. I think we had discussed it. - -Mr. RANKIN. You had discussed it? - -Mr. MARTIN. I don't know exactly how we came to these figures as far as -that is concerned. - -Mr. RANKIN. But you think you had discussed it before the meeting at -the coffee shoppe that you described? - -Mr. MARTIN. Probably so. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you suggest the amount? - -Mr. MARTIN. I don't know. - -Mr. RANKIN. You don't recall whether you did or he did? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you talk that over with Marina? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who was present at that time? - -Mr. MARTIN. I believe Lee Gopadze. - -Mr. RANKIN. Anyone else? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, there were several times we discussed it with Marina. -One time Robert was there. He read the contracts. Let's see, he usually -came in on Sunday so he read the contracts more at length. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did Robert come in before or after your conversation in the -coffee shoppe that you referred to? - -Mr. MARTIN. I believe after. - -Mr. RANKIN. After you had the conversation in the coffee shoppe with -Mr. Thorne, did you make any changes in the draft of the contract. - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. LEECH. Excuse me, what contract are you talking about? - -Mr. RANKIN. Thorne contract. - -Were you referring to the Thorne contract? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. What changes did you make at that time? - -Mr. MARTIN. We deleted gifts, contributions. He used a standard -contractual form, and in that contractual form it includes gifts and -contributions, and we deleted those. - -Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit No. 279 and ask you if that is a -photostat copy of the contract you have been referring to? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And it has stricken out the words that you have just -described with regard to donations and gifts? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. It does give him an interest in collections, trust funds -and bequests, according to the language of this Exhibit No. 279. - -Do you know what was meant by that? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. That was in the standard contract that this was drawn -from. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever discuss this contract, Exhibit No. 279, with -Marina Oswald? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, with Mr. Thorne and Robert Oswald present. - -Mr. RANKIN. When was that? - -Mr. MARTIN. Between the 1st and the 6th of December 1963. I can't -recall the dates. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember where you were when you had that discussion? - -Mr. MARTIN. At the house, my home. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to Marina about it? - -Mr. MARTIN. I don't recall any conversation at all. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was anything said about the 10 percent at that time? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, she knew it was 10 percent. - -Mr. RANKIN. How do you know she knew that? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, we explained it to her. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who explained it? - -Mr. MARTIN. I don't know whether I did or whether John Thorne did or -Robert. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did she understand English enough to understand what you -were talking about? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. How do you know that? - -Mr. MARTIN. Because of her reaction to it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did she react about the 10 percent? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. I mean there was no reaction as far as her, a definite -reaction but I could tell she understood it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what you observed about her that caused you -to think that she understood it? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, I don't know. I think it was explained to her as 10 -cents of a dollar. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was anything---- - -Mr. MARTIN. But she said she understood percents. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did she say that? - -Mr. MARTIN. That way. "I understand percents" or something of that type. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was there any discussion with Marina about the effect of -this contract on donations and contributions from the public? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. We said that that would not be included in that 10 -percent. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to Marina about whether this was a -good contract for her? - -Mr. MARTIN. I probably did. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what you said? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. You have no recollection about that? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. Actually we left most of it up to Robert. - -Mr. RANKIN. So whatever explanation was made to Marina was really made -by Robert, is that right? - -Mr. LEECH. Excuse me for just a minute. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Back on the record. - -Mr. LEECH. Mr. Martin's contract and Robert had a contract with her, -too, and Mr. Thorne's contract were left with her. They were not signed -that day. - -Mr. RANKIN. You tell us what you know about that, Mr. Martin. - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, Robert wanted to read over the contracts and think -them over, and I believe he took copies of them. Now, I am not sure, I -am not certain, about that. - -Mr. RANKIN. When did Robert get involved here, of getting a share? - -Mr. MARTIN. From the beginning. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were you present when that matter came up? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. That was Marina's request that he participate. - -Mr. RANKIN. When was that request made? - -Mr. MARTIN. Prior to the signing of the contracts, probably December -4--3d or 4th. - -Mr. RANKIN. Who was present at that time? - -Mr. MARTIN. I believe John Thorne and Robert, Marina and myself. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did Marina say about that at that time? - -Mr. MARTIN. She wanted Robert to have some of the money. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did Robert say about that? - -Mr. MARTIN. As I recall he didn't say much of anything. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything to indicate that he thought that was a -good idea, a bad idea? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. I think he said, "Thank you," that is about it. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did Marina say anything about how much she wanted Robert to -get? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did she say about that? - -Mr. MARTIN. Ten percent. - -Mr. RANKIN. She just said 10 percent, is that all? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did Marina make any explanation of how she decided that -Robert should get a share, too? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, other than she wanted to give Robert something. - -Representative FORD. May I ask a question? - -Mr. RANKIN. Surely. - -Representative FORD. Was there any discussion at any time, Mr. Martin, -as to whether Marguerite should have any benefits from it? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did Marina discuss with you at that time what Robert was to -do for his 10 percent? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any discussion about what you were to do for -your share? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, to sell her story. - -Mr. RANKIN. And what would Mr. Thorne do for his 10 percent? - -Mr. MARTIN. Handle all the legal work involved. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever hear any discussion about what Robert was to -do for his percentage? - -Mr. MARTIN. We said that--let's see--we would discuss with him on -various occasions any of these contracts, but that he was--he would -take over the handling of Marina's affairs in case of my disability. - -Mr. LEECH. Off the record. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. RANKIN. Was there anything more said than you have related about -what Robert would do for his share? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. I think I probably remarked to him that there would -probably be plenty for him to do. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was there any dispute between any of you or with Marina at -this time about the percentages? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. The only thing that I recall was the terms of the -contract, of my contract. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was something said about that? - -Mr. MARTIN. Was 10 years. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mr. MARTIN. And Marina thought that was too long. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did she say about that? - -Mr. MARTIN. She said she thought 10 years was too long. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you say? - -Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, she wanted a 1 year contract and I told her that -actually 1 year, there is no telling how this story would develop or -anything, and that 1 year might interfere with the sale of the story. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did she say to that? - -Mr. MARTIN. That they agreed to it. - -Mr. RANKIN. She agreed then to the 10 years? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was any interpreter present at that time? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. So whatever Marina understood about was from her -understanding of English and communication with you and Robert and Mr. -Thorne? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, Lee Gopadze had discussed it prior to that. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was that in your presence? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. He just discussed it, the general terms, I assume. - -Mr. RANKIN. But you don't know. - -Mr. MARTIN. Of course. I couldn't understand what he was saying. We -left the contracts with her for several days. - -Mr. RANKIN. But you don't know what was done with them? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Because you weren't present. - -Do you know whether she understood English enough to read those -contracts at that time? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. She couldn't have read the contracts at that time. -But she said she understood it sufficiently, and that she would trust -Robert's judgment on it. - -Mr. RANKIN. When did she say that? - -Mr. MARTIN. Just before--I guess the same day she signed it. - -Mr. RANKIN. I will ask you to look at Exhibit No. 279 and tell us -whether you recognize the signatures on that? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Whose signatures are they? - -Mr. MARTIN. Mrs. Marina N. Oswald and James H. Martin. - -Mr. RANKIN. In the parts that are stricken out---- - -Mr. MARTIN. John M. Thorne. - -Mr. RANKIN. On Exhibit No. 279 were those stricken out before the -discussion of the contract? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was that done when you were there? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you observe the signing? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. LEECH. They were not signed the date it says they were signed. - -Mr. MARTIN. On the 5th. - -Mr. LEECH. The date it says they were signed that is the date they were -drawn up but they were all signed the same time, weren't they, Mr. -Martin? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what the facts are in that regard, Mr. -Martin? - -Mr. MARTIN. The contracts were drawn--let's see--the contracts were -drawn and Robert wanted to go over them, so we held it in abeyance. I -think he was there on a Sunday and he came back on a Tuesday, I am not -sure about the days, and signed the contracts. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you know the signature of Marina Oswald? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us whether or not Exhibit No. 279 bears her -signature? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, it does. - -Mr. RANKIN. It appears to be witnessed by you, is that your signature? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. And the acceptance at the bottom of Exhibit No. 279, do you -know whose signature that is? - -Mr. MARTIN. John Thorne's. - -Mr. RANKIN. And you say that the exhibit was, the contract, Exhibit No. -279 was executed on the 6th rather than the 5th day of December. - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, I can't recall the dates on it. - -Mr. LEECH. Excuse me for just a minute. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. LEECH. Counsel, for what it is worth, Robert's was executed at the -same time as the other ones. I believe his is dated the 9th, isn't it? -So it would have been the 9th or afterwards. They were all executed at -the same time. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Martin, do you know that? - -Mr. MARTIN. I know they were all executed the same time. - -Mr. RANKIN. Whether or not it was the 9th or the 6th you don't recall -at this time? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. I am fairly certain it was not the 6th. - -Mr. RANKIN. Are you certain what date it was? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. What is your best recollection in that regard? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, it was several days after the contracts were drawn -that they were executed, and I believe the contracts were drawn, and -the date that they were drawn was entered on the contract. - -Mr. RANKIN. You think that might have been December 5 that they were -drawn then? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, that is already in evidence. - -Mr. DULLES. It has already been admitted. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. Mr. Rankin, we would like to have a short adjournment at -10:30. The members of the Commission would like to speak with you. - -(Short recess.) - -Mr. DULLES. The Commission will resume. Mr. Rankin, will you please -continue with the examination? - -Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Martin, I have been asking you about some of your -contractual and financial arrangements with Marina Oswald and also Mr. -Thorne's and Robert Oswald's. If you and your counsel won't object -I would like to depart from that because I would like to have this -information developed when some of the members of the Commission are -here who might not be at other times during your examination. - -Mr. MARTIN. One thing Mr. Leech brought to my attention was that he -thought maybe you might be under the impression that these contracts -were all drawn on the same date, December 5. They weren't drawn on the -same date. I think it was the 5th, 6th and 7th, or the 5th, 6th, and -9th. Robert's was drawn on the 9th, mine was drawn the 6th, and Mr. -Thorne's was drawn the 5th. - -Mr. RANKIN. Thank you. - -I want to ask you about a particular incident that was referred to in -the Houston Post, an article in the paper and the source was given as -you and that is in regard to Mr. Nixon, Richard Nixon, former Vice -President of the United States. - -Did Marina ever say anything to you about Lee Oswald planning any -violent action or assassination of Richard M. Nixon? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. When did you first learn about that? - -Mr. MARTIN. I don't remember the date. It was sometime in January, and -she mentioned it, said that he had come home one night and said, one -evening, and said that he had waited for Nixon to shoot him. - -Mr. RANKIN. Where was this? - -Mr. MARTIN. In Dallas. - -Mr. RANKIN. What time was it that he came home that night? - -Mr. MARTIN. I didn't question her too much about the time. I assumed -that it was after work. - -Mr. RANKIN. At about what time of the day was it? - -Mr. MARTIN. Five or six o'clock. She said they were living on Neely -Street, and he came home that night, and told her about it. So the -next morning he got up, Nixon had not come into town, so he said that -he would be in the next day, and so he got up the next morning and got -dressed with a suit, I believe she said, and she locked him in the -bathroom and kept him there all day, they said. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did she say how she locked him in the bathroom? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask her how she could do that, whether there was a -lock on the inside of the bathroom or outside? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, I thought it was a little--I thought the story was a -little far-fetched myself. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to her about it? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, I said, "Don't go around telling people something -like that." - -Mr. RANKIN. Did she say anything about whether it was true or not? - -Mr. MARTIN. She said it was true. - -Mr. DULLES. May I ask a question? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. Was this brought up in connection with anything in -particular or just come out of the blue, blurted out? - -Mr. MARTIN. It just came out of the blue. - -Mr. DULLES. There was no prior conversation that led up to this or any -background to it? - -Mr. MARTIN. Not that I recall. It was just a statement that she made. I -think she was talking about Oswald---- - -Representative FORD. Was she prone to come out with these kinds of -comments or was this an unusual circumstance? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. She at times referred to some particular incident -in Russia or various things like that. And they would be completely -unattached to anything that we had been talking about. - -Mr. RANKIN. What more did you say to her about this incident when she -brought it up? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, the only time I recall Nixon being in Dallas was in -November. Now, she was not living with Oswald in November, and---- - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you say that to her? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. I just let the thing go. - -Mr. RANKIN. You didn't even ask her how she locked him in the bathroom? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. I thought about it, because I know the only bathroom -doors I have seen lock from the inside and they swing in. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask her what he did after he was locked in the -bathroom? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did she say about that? - -Mr. MARTIN. She said he didn't do anything. When she let him out that -night, and I suppose he would be pretty mad at her, and she said no, he -wasn't. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did she say she kept him in the bathroom all day? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Representative FORD. Was anybody else present at the time of this -statement by her to you? - -Mr. MARTIN. My wife. - -Representative FORD. Did your wife make any inquiry? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. We thought it was some kind of a story. - -Mr. RANKIN. You mean you thought it was an untrue story? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, and why, I don't know. It didn't sound logical. - -Mr. RANKIN. Were there other conversations with Marina that you had -where you thought she was telling you things that were untrue? - -Mr. MARTIN. She would relate stories about Russia that I would listen -to but they didn't sound right. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, they mostly dealt with boy friends. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did she say in that regard? - -Mr. MARTIN. Oh, she would talk about some individual boy friends, -usually a non-Russian, someone from Rumania or Germany or from some -other country. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did she say? - -Mr. LEECH. Is this going to be made public? - -Mr. RANKIN. This might be, yes. - -Mr. MARTIN. Oh, I don't know about specific incidents. She would remark -about she knew--I am trying to think of a specific--one was, let's see, -she left Leningrad and went to Minsk because of an association with a -married man there. - -Representative FORD. In Leningrad? - -Mr. MARTIN. It was either she left Leningrad to go to Minsk or vice -versa. - -Representative FORD. But she left one or the other to go to the other -because of an association with a married man? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Where was the association, in Leningrad or in Minsk? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, it was in the city that she left. - -Mr. RANKIN. She was getting away from that association, was she? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. By going to the other city? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any other conversation when she told you -something that you don't believe? - -Mr. MARTIN. Oh, she remarked about people that she knew in Russia that -had, we will say, lovers---- - -Mr. DULLES. Did she tell anything about a letter that she wrote to a -boy friend in Minsk? - -Mr. MARTIN. After she was here in New Orleans? - -Mr. DULLES. Yes. - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. What did she say about that? - -Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, she said she wrote the letter, and I believe -what it was she told the boy that she wasn't--she wanted to come back -to Russia, to him, she loved him, and the letter was returned, I -believe, for lack of postage, and Oswald got hold of the letter, and he -asked her about it, and I think he asked her either to read it or he -would read it. I believe she read it to him. This caused quite a bit of -difficulty. Now, that is when she was in New Orleans. - -Mr. RANKIN. When she was telling you about these people that had lovers -in Russia, you didn't believe these stories? Is that what you are -saying? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, of course, I know nothing about Russian life. - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mr. MARTIN. So I more or less took it with a grain of salt. I didn't -put any credibility to it or any doubt to it. It was just something -that was said and I didn't either accept it or reject it. - -Mr. RANKIN. How did she happen to tell you about going to Minsk to get -away from a married man in Leningrad? - -Tell us how that came up. - -Mr. MARTIN. I think she was just talking about boy friends, I guess. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did she tell you she had quite a few boy friends? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was that in Russia that she had the boy friends? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. RANKIN. How many did she tell you about? - -Mr. MARTIN. Oh, boy. Well, she didn't mention any names as such, and -I don't know whether different stories got confused to being two -different people or--I would say 10 or 12. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did she include Lee Oswald among those? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, you mean as a boy friend? - -Mr. RANKIN. Yes. - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did she tell you anything about her relations with these -boy friends? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. You say you didn't believe these stories? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, I didn't have any reason to disbelieve or to believe -them. They were just conversation. - -Mr. RANKIN. Now, on the Nixon matter, when that came to your attention, -did you tell anyone else about it? - -Mr. MARTIN. I discussed it with my wife, and with John Thorne. - -Mr. DULLES. Excuse me just a moment. - -Mr. Martin, this is Congressman Boggs, a member of the Commission, and -this is Mr. Leech, counsel for Mr. Martin. - -Mr. LEECH. I know Mr. Boggs, I met him in New Orleans years ago. - -Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us about the conversation when you related -this to someone else? - -Mr. MARTIN. It was on the telephone, and I was quite shocked at first -about it and then thinking it over, it didn't sound logical. - -Mr. RANKIN. You believed it at first? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I guess I didn't see any reason for it not to be true. -But then I didn't see any reason for it to be a lie, either, and I -supposed it was possible. - -Mr. RANKIN. When did you tell Mr. Thorne about it with reference to -when Marina told you? - -Mr. MARTIN. The same day. I don't recall the date at all. - -Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to Mr. Thorne about it? - -Mr. MARTIN. I just related the incident, what she had told me. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to him about telling the Commission -about it? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about telling the Commission about it? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't believe so. - -Mr. RANKIN. Was there anything else said in this telephone conversation -with Mr. Thorne except relating what Marina had said? - -Mr. MARTIN. I remarked what a big bombshell that would be as far as -publicity was concerned if the newspapers ever got hold of something -like that. - -Mr. RANKIN. That it would be helpful in regard to Marina's story, did -you say that? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, I did think it would be harmful. - -Mr. RANKIN. Did you say that to him? - -Mr. MARTIN. I believe so. - -Mr. DULLES. Why would it be harmful? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, this purportedly took place after the Walker -incident, and she had made a statement that if Oswald repeated anything -of a similar nature as the Walker incident she would turn him over to -the police, and this was a repeat or similar, he actually didn't shoot -at him but threatened to, and she did not report it to the police. - -Mr. DULLES. I see. - -The Walker incident took place on April 10, 1963, according to our -records. - -Senator COOPER. I would like you if you can to repeat everything that -Mrs. Oswald told you about the Nixon incident. What did Lee say to her? - -Mr. MARTIN. This has been a very confusing 2 months---- - -Senator COOPER. I know that. - -Mr. MARTIN. To me. - -Senator COOPER. Do the best you can. Take your time and tell us about -it. - -Mr. MARTIN. I couldn't recall it verbatim, but she said he came in one -evening, early in the evening, and said that he had tried to shoot -Nixon but that he had not come into town that night as he was supposed -to have, or that day, but that he would be in the next day, and he -would take care of it then. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Senator COOPER. I think you said that she did at least partly identify -the time by saying at the time they were living on Neely Street. - -Mr. MARTIN. Neely Street. - -Mr. DULLES. May I just add there our records indicate they were living -on Neely Street on March 2, between March 2, 1963, and April 24, 1963. - -Senator COOPER. Did Mrs. Oswald tell you anything that he said about -the way or means he intended to kill him or at what place? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall what weapon she mentioned at the time? - -Mr. MARTIN. I don't know if I recall that she said shoot him or kill -him. - -Representative FORD. Could she speak English well enough to -differentiate between shoot and kill? - -Mr. MARTIN. At the time? - -Representative FORD. Yes. - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Representative FORD. She could distinguish English that well? - -Mr. REDLICH. Did she mention a pistol or rifle? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did she mention whether he was employed at the time or -unemployed at the time? - -Mr. MARTIN. I don't believe so. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did you ask her how it was possible for her to keep him in -a bathroom for one whole day? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you ask her why Lee Harvey Oswald wanted to kill Nixon, -any motive? - -Mr. MARTIN. I think I asked, "Well, why would he want to do that?" And -she shrugged her shoulders. - -Senator COOPER. I would like to follow up on that. In this conversation -with her, did he give any reason to Marina Oswald why he wanted to kill -Nixon? - -Mr. MARTIN. Evidently not. She didn't answer. She didn't answer me when -I asked. - -Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, you have said in your opinion the Nixon -incident was after the Walker incident. - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, that is what she said. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did she relate it to the General Walker incident in any -way when she discussed the Nixon incident with you? - -Mr. MARTIN. She just said it was after General Walker. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did she relate to you any conversation that she may have -had with Lee Harvey Oswald relating the Nixon incident to the Walker -incident? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did she refer to any promise that he may have made at the -time of the Walker incident that may have related to the Nixon incident? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. I remember her saying after the Walker incident she -told him that if he ever did anything of that nature again that she -would report him to the police. - -Mr. DULLES. How did you know the Nixon incident was after or supposed -to be after the Walker incident? Did she say that? - -Mr. MARTIN. She said it was. - -Mr. DULLES. She said that? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes; I asked when it happened and she said after Walker. - -Mr. REDLICH. When she told you that she had threatened Lee Oswald -with going to the police if there were another incident, did you ever -ask her why she had not done so in light of the Nixon incident which -subsequently followed? - -Mr. MARTIN. I must not have because I think I would have remembered it -if I had. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did you ever consider reporting the Nixon incident to any -Federal authorities? - -Mr. MARTIN. If it didn't come out in the hearing, yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. When Mrs. Oswald was preparing to come to Washington with -you for the hearings before this Commission, did you discuss the Nixon -incident with her? - -Mr. MARTIN. I don't think so. I know I told her to be sure to tell the -truth to the Commission. She had mentioned that she had lied to the FBI. - -Mr. REDLICH. With regard to what? - -Mr. MARTIN. On a Mexico trip. She told the FBI she didn't know he had -gone there or that he was going. - -Mr. REDLICH. To the best of your knowledge had she ever related the -Nixon incident to the FBI or Secret Service prior to her trip to -Washington? - -Mr. MARTIN. I don't know. I was never in on any of the questions. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did you give her any advice in connection with any of -those interviews? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. I told her if she got tired to tell them so that they -could come back the next day. - -Mr. REDLICH. You say when she was planning to come here you advised her -to tell the truth? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did you give her similar advice in connection with the FBI -and Secret Service interviews? - -Mr. MARTIN. I don't think the situation ever arose. She asked -specifically about the Mexico incident. - -Mr. REDLICH. Throughout the many interviews with the FBI and Secret -Service you never asked her, I take it, whether she had discussed the -Nixon incident with the FBI or the Secret Service? - -Mr. MARTIN. I think I may have asked her when she told me, if she had -told the FBI. - -Mr. REDLICH. What did she say? - -Mr. MARTIN. She said no. - -Mr. REDLICH. What did you say? - -Mr. MARTIN. I don't recall if I said anything. - -Representative FORD. Mr. Redlich. I wonder if we couldn't have Mr. -Martin tell us the time of day and the circumstances that this -conversation with Marina in the presence of your wife arose, not -necessarily the date but the time of day, and the overall---- - -Mr. MARTIN. It was in the evening. - -Representative FORD. You were sitting around the room? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, in the den. - -Representative FORD. Just the three of you? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Representative FORD. Did she just start talking or did you prompt her -or just how did the situation arise? - -Mr. MARTIN. I don't recall. I think maybe--I think it just came into -conversation as we were talking about the whole thing in general. - -Mr. DULLES. Were you talking at that time about what her memoirs or any -writings she might---- - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. DULLES. --she might produce would include? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Representative FORD. What was your wife's reaction to this story? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, she couldn't believe it either. - -Representative FORD. Did she ask any questions about it such as the -ones you have indicated? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, other than the ones I asked. - -Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us with whom you have discussed the Nixon -incident other than those that you have mentioned thus far, I believe -thus far you have said Mrs. Martin and Mr. Thorne. - -Is there anyone else you have told this to? - -Mr. MARTIN. Don Levine. - -Mr. REDLICH. Who? - -Mr. MARTIN. Levine. - -Mr. REDLICH. Who is he? - -Mr. MARTIN. A writer. - -Mr. REDLICH. For what publication. - -Mr. MARTIN. He is an author. - -Mr. DULLES. Freelance writer and author, Isaac Don Levine for the -record. - -Mr. REDLICH. When did you relate this incident to him? - -Mr. MARTIN. Back in January. - -Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us why you told him? - -Mr. MARTIN. He is of the opinion that there is more to this than meets -the eye, so to speak. He is---- - -Mr. DULLES. More to what? - -Mr. MARTIN. More to the assassination. - -Mr. DULLES. The Nixon story? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. DULLES. The whole assassination, Kennedy assassination? - -Mr. MARTIN. And he--of course, he is quite familiar with Russian -affairs, and he said the stories just don't match, and he was trying -to tie in Oswald, I guess, with the Communist Party or some attachment -there some place, and I mentioned that I thought he was just a nut. - -Mr. REDLICH. That who was. - -Mr. MARTIN. Oswald. And I said, I told him I didn't know how true it -was but then I related the story, and he--I cautioned him not to pass -it around or anything like that, which he said he wouldn't. - -Mr. REDLICH. Were you or Marina Oswald compensated in any way for the -release of this information to Mr. Levine? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. DULLES. Was Mr. Levine at this time trying to get the rights to the -story or the right to write the story? - -Mr. MARTIN. He wants to write the story, and through Meredith Press. - -Mr. REDLICH. Were you negotiating with Mr. Levine at the time -concerning the rights to Marina Oswald's story? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. And it was during the course of these negotiations that -you revealed to him the Nixon incident? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. And this, you say, was sometime in January? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did you tell anyone else other than Mr. Levine? - -Mr. MARTIN. Not that I recall unless it was Robert Oswald. - -Mr. REDLICH. Will you try to refresh your recollection with regard to -Robert? - -Mr. MARTIN. I beg your pardon? - -Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall whether you had a conversation in -mid-January with Robert Oswald concerning the Nixon incident? - -Mr. MARTIN. I don't remember. I was trying to remember that the other -day to find out if I had mentioned it to him. And---- - -Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall when Robert Oswald would come to visit your -house? - -Mr. MARTIN. On Sundays. - -Mr. REDLICH. And what would he do on these Sundays? - -Mr. MARTIN. Usually take Marina and the baby to the cemetery. - -Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall whether on one of those Sundays you had a -conversation with him concerning the Nixon incident? - -Mr. MARTIN. I don't remember. I am not sure whether I did tell him or -not. It seems to me that I did, but I can't recall the incident at all. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did Mrs. Oswald, Marina Oswald, ever indicate to you that -she had discussed the Nixon incident with anyone else? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. To be more specific, did she ever indicate to you whether -she had discussed the Nixon incident with Robert Oswald? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. With Mrs. Marguerite Oswald? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. With any Federal authority? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Could you state again what your advice to her was with -regard to the revealing of this incident? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, I told her it would be advisable just not to say -anything about it. - -Mr. REDLICH. To anyone? - -Mr. MARTIN. That is right. - -Mr. REDLICH. But you related the incident to Mr. Levine. - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. When you accompanied Mrs. Oswald to Washington for the -hearings before this Commission, did the Nixon incident come up at all -during your conversations? - -Mr. MARTIN. Not that I recall. - -Mr. REDLICH. This incident which you regarded of such importance at -the time you didn't discuss with her at all during the time she was -appearing before this Commission? - -Mr. MARTIN. I don't remember mentioning it to her. - -Mr. REDLICH. You didn't ask her whether she had told the Commissioners? - -Mr. MARTIN. I think I asked John Thorne if she had mentioned it. - -Mr. REDLICH. What did Mr. Thorne say? - -Mr. MARTIN. He said no, not yet. And I dropped it at that. - -Mr. REDLICH. You and Mr. Thorne didn't have any conversations -concerning whether she should mention it? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. At the conclusion of the testimony did you ask Mrs. Oswald -whether she had mentioned it? - -Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge, no. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did you discuss with Mr. Thorne the question of whether -she had mentioned the Nixon incident before this Commission? - -Mr. MARTIN. I think so. - -Mr. REDLICH. What did Mr. Thorne say? - -Mr. MARTIN. He said no. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did you and Mr. Thorne discuss whether she should have -mentioned that incident before this Commission? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did you think it was an important incident, Mr. Martin? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. I don't know why--the credibility of it didn't sound -logical. It didn't seem to me that it actually happened. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did you speak to any representative of the Houston Post or -the Associated Press with regard to this incident in the last several -days? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yesterday morning. - -Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us the nature of that conversation? - -Mr. MARTIN. He came out and asked me. - -Mr. REDLICH. Who is "he"? - -Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, his name is Creighton, I believe or the last -name began with a "C", he is with the Houston Post, reporter. He came -out and asked me what I knew about the Nixon incident and I said I know -nothing about it. He said well he had it on good authority that there -was a diary that Lee Harvey Oswald had written and it was mentioned in -the diary. - -Now, I have never heard of a diary involved. There are some 60 pages of -manuscript that he is supposed to have written, but I have never heard -of a diary. - -Then--which I told him. - -He asked me if I knew of anyone that he could contact to find more -about it. And I said well, if anybody knows about it, it will be the -Commission, and I told him that I had just heard about it the day -before, and he asked if Marina knew anything about it, and I said I -don't know. - -Mr. REDLICH. You didn't discuss with this reporter whether you believed -the incident to be true? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. At the time you first learned about the incident you -thought it was of sufficient importance that you called Mr. Thorne the -same day, isn't that right? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. We discussed it back and forth and I don't--we -couldn't think of how it could happen. - -Mr. LEECH. Could we go off the record? - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. DULLES. Read this brief report into the record. - -Mr. REDLICH. I would like to read into the record a story which appears -in the Washington Post February 22, 1964--27, 1964, dated Houston, -Texas, February 26, Associated Press: - -"The Houston Post quoted an associate of Lee Harvey Oswald's widow -tonight as saying Oswald planned to kill former Vice President Richard -M. Nixon. The Post quoted James Martin, until a few days ago Marina -Oswald's business representative, as saying that evidence to this -effect had been presented to the Warren Commission investigating the -assassination of President John F. Kennedy. Martin is scheduled to -testify before the Commissioners Thursday. Nixon was in Dallas the -day before President Kennedy was killed. Oswald was charged with the -slaying." - -Mr. MARTIN. Now. I did not tell him--I told him exactly what I told -you, that I had no knowledge of it. I had secondhand knowledge only of -it. I said if anyone knew about it the Commission would know it. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did you tell him that this evidence had been presented -before the Warren Commission? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, I told him if anybody knew about it, you would know -about it. - -Senator COOPER. I think you said a minute ago that you only learned -about it the day before? - -Mr. MARTIN. That is what I told the newspaper reporter. - -Senator COOPER. What is the significance of that? Did you talk to -somebody the day before? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, it was just a method of brushing him off. - -Senator COOPER. Had you talked to Robert Oswald the day before? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Senator COOPER. May I ask this: Now, Mrs. Marina Oswald told you about -the Nixon incident? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Senator COOPER. Had she previously told you about the Walker incident? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Senator COOPER. General Walker? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, after it came out in the newspapers. The first I heard -about it was when I read in the newspapers. - -Senator COOPER. Then she talked to you about it? - -Mr. MARTIN. I asked her about it. - -Senator COOPER. You have read somewhere, have you, that Mrs. Marina -Oswald said that Lee Oswald gave her his reason for wanting to shoot at -General Walker? - -Mr. MARTIN. The reason she gave me was that Lee Harvey Oswald thought -that General Walker was a Fascist. - -Senator COOPER. Right. - -Mr. MARTIN. And needed to be killed. - -Senator COOPER. Did she tell you any statement that Lee Oswald made -giving his reasons that he wanted to kill or shoot Richard Nixon? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Senator COOPER. Didn't talk about that at all? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Senator COOPER. Did she ever tell you of any other statements that Lee -Oswald had made to her about his, any attempts that he made or any -intentions that he had to kill any other person? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Senator COOPER. You are sure of that? - -Mr. MARTIN. Positive. - -Senator COOPER. Did she tell you about any statements that Lee Oswald -might have made about President Kennedy? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. Anything that---- - -Senator COOPER. You must have talked to her a great deal about this -assassination of President Kennedy. - -Mr. MARTIN. Actually, I tried to avoid most of this stuff. - -Senator COOPER. What? - -Mr. MARTIN. I tried to avoid most of these things. I don't know, I -figured they would be a sore spot with her, but I don't know whether -they were or not. - -Senator COOPER. It would be tremendously helpful to this Commission -to know if she did talk to you about the assassination of President -Kennedy and anything that Lee Oswald might have said about him before -and tell us anything---- - -Mr. MARTIN. If she had said anything to me about it I would definitely -tell you. I cannot recall any incident that--of the conversation -between she and Lee about any other assassination or about the -President. - -Mr. DULLES. Had you ever met or heard of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to -November 22, 1963? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Representative BOGGS. Mrs. Oswald lived in your home for how long? - -Mr. MARTIN. About 2-1/2 months. - -Representative BOGGS. You had many conversations with her in that -period of time. - -Mr. MARTIN. No, not really many. I was usually out of the house, and -there weren't many opportunities that arose to have a conversation. - -Representative BOGGS. Did you ever have any reason to believe that she -was anything other than what she appeared to be, namely an ordinary -housewife who had come to this country as the wife of an American whom -she married? - -Mr. MARTIN. Looking back on the whole picture, she doesn't seem quite -right. I mean she doesn't fit. - -Representative BOGGS. What do you mean by that? - -Mr. MARTIN. As a mother and a housewife. She is too cold for one thing. - -Representative BOGGS. Cold in what way? - -Mr. MARTIN. Emotionally. This thing, I don't know whether it is the -Russian woman or what, but this thing would have terrifically upset an -American woman, and she was not very upset at all. - -Representative FORD. Not upset about the assassination? - -Mr. MARTIN. About her husband. - -Representative FORD. About her husband's subsequent death? - -Representative BOGGS. Well now---- - -Mr. MARTIN. She was to a degree. But it didn't ring true. - -Representative BOGGS. So what do you mean by that. Do you mean that -because of her coolness under very terrific--very difficult conditions -and a very difficult situation, that maybe she was not just what she -appeared to be, and if not, what do you think she was? - -Mr. MARTIN. I have no idea. It is the way she treated, the way she -treated contributions, for instance; someone would send a dollar, I -don't know, maybe it was her last dollar, and she would look at it and -throw it aside and say, "Oh, it is just a dollar." And John Thorne and -I kind of built up an image for her or of her, for the American public, -and she is not exactly as we picture her in the news articles. - -Mr. REDLICH. Would you spell that out in more detail? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, for one thing, I recall instances that she read the -Bible every day, she didn't crack a Bible. She got up between 10 and 11 -o'clock every morning. The only household chores she did was wash the -evening dinner dishes, and occasionally she would vacuum. - -Representative BOGGS. This may be attributed to lack of energy or -laziness. - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, yes, that is true. But she is not a humble person at -all. - -Representative FORD. Did you ever see her cry or show any comparable -emotions? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. The closest I ever saw her to really showing any -emotion at all was when, it was about a week after she had been there, -she saw a picture, of Jackie Kennedy's picture--a picture of Jackie -Kennedy, I don't know whether it was Life Magazine or what. - -Representative BOGGS. Did she ever do anything or say anything that -would give you any reason to believe that maybe she was part of an -intelligence system? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. Although I have wondered about it since. - -Mr. REDLICH. Since when, Mr. Martin? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, this whole thing, since I got into it. This whole -thing seems to me like I have been kind of made a patsy. Robert Oswald -wouldn't take her in right after this incident because he was afraid of -what might happen, might or might not happen. - -The Fords also expressed the same opinion. - -Mr. DULLES. What do you mean by the same opinion? - -Mr. MARTIN. That they wouldn't have taken her in at first. Mr. Ford -expressed the opinion that he was afraid of what the public reaction -might be and he didn't know what to think. - -We took her in with the full knowledge that anything could happen, and -anything might happen, and it was done strictly on an altruistic basis -at first, and then this manager thing came in which I wish it hadn't at -all. - -But be that as it may, it has happened, and things have been turned -upside down. - -But then as soon as the Secret Service was pulled off then Robert -insisted that she move from my home to his home, and start proceedings -to cancel the contracts that are in existence. She was up there--she -came back to the doctor on a Tuesday after she left our home, and -stopped in at the house and said she wanted to come back to live with -us. - -Mr. DULLES. When was this approximately? Just after she moved to the -Fords or how long after she moved? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, she left my home on Sunday, went to Denton to live with -Robert, came back to the doctor, Dr. Bishop, on Tuesday, and came over -to the house to pick up some of her belongings, and---- - -Mr. REDLICH. Excuse me, just so the Commission has the date straight, -the Sunday you are referring to when she left is the Sunday after her -appearance before this Commission? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. That would be the 9th of February, is that correct? - -Mr. MARTIN. Right. - -Then on Tuesday, which would be the 11th, she came back to the house, -and wanted to move back in. - -Representative FORD. Who drove her, how did she get there? - -Mr. MARTIN. Vada Oswald, Robert Oswald's wife. - -Mr. REDLICH. Are you finished with what you were about to say? - -Mr. MARTIN. It just seemed strange to me that a sudden move should be -made like that and then within two days after that, it was Tuesday, and -Wednesday, Thursday and I received a letter from her discharging me as -her manager or attempting to discharge me. - -Representative BOGGS. I was asking you about intelligence and that sort -of thing. - -This would not indicate that sort of thing to you, would it? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, but the whole thing seemed to be a kind of a preplanned -thing. - -Mr. REDLICH. Will you spell that out in more detail because when -Congressman Boggs asked you questions as to whether Mrs. Oswald might -be part of Soviet intelligence you replied you are now beginning to -wonder, and you also replied you wonder if you have been made a patsy. - -Could you, in your own words, explain that answer in greater detail? - -Mr. MARTIN. Of course, not knowing how a spy would work or anything, -I have no knowledge of anything of this sort, this whole thing shows -a lack of gratefulness or something, and actually she showed the same -thing with Mrs. Paine. She lived with Mrs. Paine for quite some time. -Then Mrs. Paine has been trying to contact her consistently for, -well, ever since the assassination, and we have passed letters to -her, letters from Mrs. Paine to Marina, wherein she has asked Marina -to at least call her or do something, and Marina doesn't want to have -anything to do with her. - -Mr. REDLICH. Has Marina given you a reason for that? - -Mr. MARTIN. She said she doesn't like her. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you know why it was that Robert Oswald advised her not -to go back to the Paines or did you know that he did? - -Mr. MARTIN. I knew that he did. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you know the reason for that? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. He said he just didn't like her. - -Mr. DULLES. He gave no reasons? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. And Mrs. Oswald, Marina Oswald, gave no reason to you as -to why she didn't like the Paines? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, I think it is because Robert didn't. That is a thought. - -Mr. REDLICH. You said that---- - -Mr. MARTIN. She has expressed that. - -Mr. REDLICH. You said that you were beginning to wonder whether this is -a preplanned affair. What do you mean by that? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, I don't mean preplanned from the very beginning, but -I think probably sometime in December from then on it might have been -planned. - -We have accumulated for her a considerable amount of money in story -rights. - -Representative BOGGS. How much? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, on advances, this is not the ultimate or the end -result, but just on advances, it is $132,000. - -Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, you are reading from a document. Is that -something---- - -Mr. MARTIN. This I brought for you. We don't have the money. But these -are the contracts that have been negotiated. - -Mr. REDLICH. Is this something you are turning over to the Commission? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, that is for your information. - -Mr. DULLES. What is the nature of this document? - -Mr. MARTIN. It is a handwritten---- - -Mr. DULLES. By whom? - -Mr. MARTIN. By me, a handwritten list of the publishers, and the news -media that I have contacted in Marina's behalf to sell her movie -rights, the TV right, book rights and so forth. - -Mr. DULLES. And the amount they have proposed to pay for them? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, these are just the advances. - -Now, in the case of Texitalia Films, for instance---- - -Mr. REDLICH. Could I interrupt and get this identified? - -Mr. MARTIN. Certainly. - -Mr. REDLICH. With your permission, we would like to introduce this into -evidence and take, a photostatic copy and leave you with the original. - -Mr. MARTIN. Certainly. - -Mr. DULLES. Would you describe this? - -Mr. REDLICH. This document lists various publications, media of -communication, and indicating the amounts which have been the subject -of negotiation, and the contracts, if any, which have been signed with -these various media of publication concerning Marina Oswald's story. - -Mr. DULLES. Mr. Martin has said this is written in his own hand, is -that correct, Mr. Martin? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. - -Representative BOGGS. Mr. Chairman, I have to go to a meeting at the -Speaker's office momentarily, I would just like to ask one further -question of this witness. - -Now, I understand about the business negotiations here and so forth, -but I want you to be specific--anything that comes to your mind as to -whether or not this woman, anything more than what I asked you about. - -Mr. LEECH. Can you give us about two minutes in that room? - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. REDLICH. Back on the record. - -Mr. DULLES. Just one minute. This should go in the record. - -Representative BOGGS. Who is this individual? - -Mr. MARTIN. I have been trying to remember his name. I can find out his -name. It began with an "H". - -Mr. DULLES. Would you repeat the story, please, and then we will -continue with the examination. - -Mr. MARTIN. I met a gentleman who is an executive with the Dinkler -Hotel chain, and he related the story to me that was told to him by -one of their engineers, a maintenance man in the Atlanta, in their -Atlanta hotel. The maintenance man's wife was an, or is a long distance -telephone operator, and on the night preceding the assassination there -was an individual that called, well, the way I heard the story, that -she said he sounded like he had been drinking, and that he mentioned -to her to remember this telephone call because it would go down in -history. He made a credit card call to Lee Harvey Oswald, and simply -said, "Proceed as planned." - -Then he made another telephone call to Jack Ruby and told him that if -anything went wrong he knew what to do. - -Now, I questioned this, I guess there are numerous rumors of this type -or whatever it is, and he said no, that it was definitely the truth, -and the reason she hadn't come out before with it was that it is a -violation of Federal law to listen to a long distance telephone call, -and that they finally did report it to the FBI. - -Mr. REDLICH. The person you were speaking to, as I understand this -story, received the information from a maintenance man whose wife was -the telephone operator who overheard the conversation? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Representative BOGGS. Was this a telephone operator in a Dinkler hotel? - -Mr. MARTIN. I didn't get that whether it was in a Dinkler hotel or -whether she was in the long distance or toll offices in Atlanta. - -Representative BOGGS. Did this person have the credit card number and -so forth? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. The person that I was talking to? - -Representative BOGGS. Did the telephone operator have it? - -Mr. MARTIN. The telephone operator did, or the telephone company has -the records. - -Representative BOGGS. Do you have any other information that would -indicate that---- - -Mr. MARTIN. No, I know this doesn't indicate anything about Marina as -far as--no, it is just a strange feeling as far as Marina is concerned. -She is too cold. - -Mr. REDLICH. When did you hear about this story, Mr. Martin? - -Mr. MARTIN. About a week ago. - -Mr. REDLICH. You haven't discussed it at all with Marina in that week? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. I would like to question you again on Congressman Boggs -point. You have said she is too cold, you have said you thought that -all this was preplanned. Is there anything specific in anything that -she told you or in any of her actions which would lead you to believe -that she has withheld certain information from you, or this Commission, -concerning her knowledge about the assassination? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, except she made a remark to me one time that she didn't -volunteer anything. She only answered questions. - -Representative FORD. This was after the return from the Commission -hearing? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, this was sometime ago. That was before---- - -Representative FORD. Before the Commission hearing where she appeared? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. And it was---- - -Mr. DULLES. Is that all you had on this particular point? - -Representative BOGGS. Yes. - -Mr. MARTIN. I don't remember what brought it up even. She didn't like -the FBI. She said that. And she didn't like to answer questions. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did she tell you why? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. She just didn't like them. Boguslav in particular. - -Mr. DULLES. But her remark was made before her hearing before this -Commission? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. And did not relate then to that hearing. - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did she indicate to you she had revealed everything that -there was to reveal before this Commission? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. There again I didn't question her about anything that -she said in the Commission. I didn't feel it was any of my business for -one thing, and all I asked her is how it went, and she would say fine, -and that would be the end of it. That is the limit of my questioning -her as far as testimony within the Commission was concerned. - -Mr. REDLICH. Will you tell us how you found out about the General -Walker incident? - -Mr. MARTIN. Read it from the newspapers. - -Mr. REDLICH. When you read about it did you talk to Mrs. Oswald about -it? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us the nature of the conversation? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, I asked her if it was true, and she said yes, and I -also asked her who was with Oswald, and she said no one. He did things -alone. And, let's see, she related the story as to the note he had -written. He had left earlier in the evening, and he hadn't come home -at the, we'll say, at an early hour, and she was getting quite upset -with him, and she found this note on a bed table or somewhere in the -bedroom, and read it, and it simply said that he might be gone for a -time or he might be in jail, and instructions as to what to do in case -he was gone. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina tell you all about this? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. In English? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. She knew English well enough to be able to relate this -type of story? - -Mr. MARTIN. She learned very rapidly. - -Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall approximately when that was? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. It was the same day it came out in the paper. - -Representative FORD. Did she know of her own knowledge about General -Walker? Did she indicate any background information about General -Walker? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Representative FORD. She only told what Lee told her about it? - -Mr. MARTIN. Lee told her he was a Fascist. - -Mr. DULLES. Did she recount to you, that is, did Marina account to -you, what she said to Lee Harvey after this incident, after the Walker -incident, after he told her about the Walker incident? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, she said that she hid the note that he left in a -cookbook and told him if he ever did anything like that again that she -would turn that note over to the police and turn him over to the police -also. - -Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, were you aware that Marina Oswald had -given this information voluntarily to the Secret Service or the FBI -concerning the Walker incident? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did you ever ask her about it? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, it was in the newspapers so I assumed they knew about -it. - -Mr. REDLICH. And you assumed she had volunteered this information? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, of course now, I was a little concerned to begin with -as to how it got out. - -Mr. REDLICH. Why were you concerned? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, if she had told it to the FRI and the FBI only then -how did it get in the newspapers? - -Mr. REDLICH. What was the--you say you were concerned that certain -aspects of her story were being released. What was the nature of your -concern? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, I was just wondering how that information got to the -newspapers? - -Mr. REDLICH. Did you ask her? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, I didn't ask her because she didn't see any newspaper -reporters at all. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did you ask any of the agents of the FBI or the Secret -Service? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, Mr. Heitman. - -Mr. REDLICH. What did Mr. Heitman tell you? - -Mr. MARTIN. He said it didn't come from the Dallas office. He said it -must have come from Washington. The Houston Chronicle brought it out. - -Mr. REDLICH. By Washington he meant the Washington office? - -Mr. MARTIN. Of the FBI, the Justice Department. - -Mr. REDLICH. FBI. That was his opinion as to where this information -could come from? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did you ever ask Mrs. Oswald why she had not revealed this -information prior to that time? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. I tried to stay as far away from this investigation as -possible, because I didn't want to get into it at all to be real frank -about it. I figured there are people better equipped than I to ferret -out information and they have methods of doing it that I have no idea -about. - -Mr. REDLICH. At that time, however, you were acting as her business -representative. - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Because I had to refute something in the paper. - -Mr. REDLICH. Were you assisting her at that time in the preparation of -any narratives that she was preparing in connection with her story? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. She has never written anything other than the -manuscript that she wrote for the Commission. And we have never -pre-prepared anything. - -Mr. DULLES. Has she had conversations with others, to your knowledge, -who have been writing material, Isaac Don Levine, for example? - -Mr. MARTIN. The only one would be Levine. - -Mr. DULLES. The only one would be Isaac Don Levine? - -Mr. MARTIN. Levine told me she told him that her husband was a -Trotskyite. Now what that means, I don't know but he seemed to think -quite a bit. - -Mr. DULLES. Marina told Isaac Don Levine? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. That Marina's husband? - -Mr. MARTIN. Lee Oswald was a Trotskyite. - -Mr. DULLES. He was a Trotskyite. - -Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, in what way do you consider yourself a patsy? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, because this, for instance---- - -Mr. REDLICH. May we introduce this in evidence so we know what we are -talking about? - -Mr. Chairman, I offer---- - -Mr. DULLES. Identify it. - -Mr. REDLICH. In the course of the witness' explanation of his business -representation of Mrs. Oswald the witness has presented before this -Commission a list of arrangements that he has entered into or is -considering entering into concerning the sale of certain aspects of -Mrs. Oswald's story. This document is, we are told, written in Mr. -Martin's handwriting. I show the witness Commission Exhibit No. 325 and -ask you whether this document is one that you have brought before the -Commission and whether its contents are as I have described them. - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes, it is. - -Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chairman, I ask that Commission Exhibit No. 325 be -admitted. - -Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 325 for -identification and received in evidence.) - -Mr. REDLICH. It is understood that a photostat of this exhibit will -be made part of the permanent record of the Commission, and that the -original will be returned to the witness. - -Mr. DULLES. I wonder if you wouldn't leave us the original in this case -because this was prepared for the Commission? - -Mr. MARTIN. You can have the original. - -Mr. DULLES. We will keep the original and we will be glad to give you a -photostat for your records. - -Mr. MARTIN. I have it right up here. - -Mr. DULLES. Do you want to read that into the record, it is quite short -and it might make the record more intelligible. - -Mr. REDLICH. Since this is in the handwriting of the witness may I -suggest that the witness read it? - -Mr. DULLES. Right. - -Mr. MARTIN. Texitalia Films, $75,000 movie and the TV rights, World -Wide plus $7,500 plus expenses per film appearance, plus $1,500 -per--plus expenses for personal appearance. Contract was signed -February 11. - -Life Magazine was $5,000, North American rights for Lee had photo with -rifle and pistol. - -Stern Magazine, $12,500, story serial rights for Germany and Italy -only, with a 70-30 percent reciprocal for serial rights in Europe, 70 -percent to Marina. - -Stern Magazine, $2,650 picture rights on the seven photos with same -arrangements as above. - -Mr. REDLICH. Finish the documents. - -Mr. MARTIN. Meredith Press, $25,000 advance on world book rights. - -London Daily Mirror $2,200 guarantee on 50-50 reciprocal for British -Commonwealth rights on rifle photo. - -Detroit Free Press stole photo and has sold it to foreign news media -thereby leaving themselves liable. - -This Week Magazine, $1,500 for 500-word article. - -Total is $132,350. - -Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, it is in connection with this document that -you have referred to yourself as a possible patsy? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. Could I ask just one moment before that, how much has been -received and how much is---- - -Mr. MARTIN. $50,000 of it. The rest is being held, $75,000 in Texitalia -Films they have the money. - -Mr. DULLES. Who is they? - -Mr. MARTIN. Texitalia Films. But they don't want to part with it until -this is settled. - -Mr. REDLICH. Until what is settled? - -Mr. MARTIN. Until there is an amicable settlement between Marina Oswald -and myself. - -Mr. REDLICH. Concerning your representation of her? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. DULLES. You mean they are holding their own money and not paying it -at the present time? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. It hasn't been put in escrow or anything of that kind? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. We have received $5,000 from Life Magazine. That is in -an escrow account. I have a check for $2,400 from Stern Magazine, which -is uncashed because the attorney McKenzie who has been hired by Robert -wrote a letter to Stern Magazine saying that I had no authority to make -any deals for Marina. So they stopped payment on the check. Of course, -I haven't tried to cash the check, so it is sitting. - -Mr. REDLICH. At this time, rather than go into the details of these -business arrangements, I would like to revert to the question posed -earlier in connection with this document, you referred to yourself as a -patsy. - -Would you care to explain that? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, I have put in approximately 2-1/2 months of good, -hard work and grief trying in the first place, trying to keep the news -media away from her and at the same time trying to sell her story. - -Mr. REDLICH. Don't assume we know anything, tell us everything. - -Mr. MARTIN. I had to leave my job at the Inn of the Six Flags to -properly handle this which was the first of the year. I could not keep -going on both jobs. These contracts were negotiated on the basis of -my contract with her, which states that I have full power to sign any -contracts for her in these fields. - -William McKenzie, who is, was hired, apparently, by Robert Oswald, and -is acting in his behalf, I guess, although he is using Marina Oswald's -name, has tried to cancel my contract retroactively, in other words, -just like it was never there at all, and it just happened too suddenly -for it not to have been planned. - -Mr. REDLICH. What would have been planned? What is the plan that you -suspect? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, the dropping of it--as soon as the money starts -to come in, then the first thing they want to do is get rid of the -personal manager and the attorney who has been taking all, who have -been the buffers for the 2-1/2 months prior to that. - -The Secret Service was pulled off, there is apparently no danger at -all concerning her life or anyone connected with her. So they feel -perfectly safe in taking off, carrying on where we left off, utilizing -all the work that we had put into it. - -This was not a decision that was made in two days. - -Mr. REDLICH. Could you be more specific in terms of your suspicions -with regard to the plan which you have alleged here was designed to get -you off this job? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, I have letters from--one from Marina and one from -McKenzie, that requests my discharge from this contractual agreement. - -Now they have actually no reason to cancel the contract. I have -performed as far as these sales are concerned quite well, and, of -course, those are just advance payments of $132,000. There would be -more on royalties after that. - -Mr. DULLES. Did you sign these agreements or Mr. Thorne or did Marina -sign them? - -Mr. MARTIN. I did. - -Mr. DULLES. These agreements with the news media? - -Mr. MARTIN. I did. - -Mr. DULLES. You signed them? - -Mr. MARTIN. According to the contract that I have with Marina, "You -will authorize me and approve for and in my behalf and in your -discretion and decision the following: approve and permit the use of -my name, photographs, likeness, voice, sound effects, characters, -persons for all publicity, advertising and the promotion of any and all -ventures desired by you to be undertaken by me and for the performance -by me of any appearance or service. You are authorized, empowered and -directed by me." - -Mr. DULLES. I think we have a copy of this, do we not? - -Mr. REDLICH. Yes. You are reading from---- - -Mr. MARTIN. My contract. - -Mr. REDLICH. Yes, just so the record is clear, the contract between -James Martin and Marina Oswald is Commission Exhibit 276 which was -introduced in connection with Robert Oswald's testimony. Mr. Martin, -there has been introduced in a prior hearing what is now Commission -Exhibits Nos. 274 and 275, a letter from William McKenzie to you and a -letter from William McKenzie to Mr. Thorne concerning the discharging -of your services. - -Do you have any document which you wish to introduce at the present -time concerning that--the reasons given for your discharge, because I -would like to ask you questions concerning that? - -Mr. LEECH. May I ask the date of the letter please, sir? Give me the -date. I think we have the originals, sir. - -Mr. REDLICH. There is one dated February 18, two of them dated February -18. - -Mr. LEECH. Yes, one to Jim Martin and one to Mr. John Thorne. - -Mr. REDLICH. One is addressed to Mr. James Martin and the other to Mr. -John Thorne. - -Mr. LEECH. Yes, sir; we have the originals. - -Mr. REDLICH. Do you have with you any other letters in connection with -the termination of Mr. Martin's services? - -Mr. MARTIN. One from Marina Oswald. - -(Discussion off the record.) - -Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, you said earlier in your testimony that you -were building a public image of Marina Oswald? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Would you tell the Commission what you mean by that? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, in this type of thing---- - -Mr. REDLICH. May I interrupt and suggest you don't thumb through---- - -Mr. MARTIN. Excuse me. We were trying to create in the public mind an -image of a bereaved widow and a simple lost girl. And I think we did -actually. This was for her, as I say, for her benefit. She has received -some $68,000 in contributions, and the image is not all true. - -Mr. REDLICH. Would you tell us in respect to which in your opinion the -image is not true? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, as I mentioned before about the bible, this is a very -small incident, she has received numerous bibles in the mail, and to my -knowledge has never read the first page of one, and most of them are in -Russian. - -This is a small thing really but it is part of her image, that she is a -religious person. - -She wants to be thought of as we have built her now but she doesn't -conform to that image. - -Mr. REDLICH. In what way, how? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, she is lazy, for one thing. - -Mr. REDLICH. Lazy in what respect? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, as far as even taking care of the children. The -children bother her. I mean to her they are a constant upset. When she -left our home to go up to Denton, my wife offered to keep the baby -there at the house if she liked, and Marina took her up on it and then -Robert told her she had better take the baby with her. She hadn't -seen the baby for over a week. And the first day she was back she was -willing to leave the baby again. - -Mr. REDLICH. Is there anything else? - -Mr. MARTIN. Her lack of, well, humbleness as far as all these -contributions are concerned. She takes it as a matter of--she takes it -for granted. She is quite unhappy when the contributions slack off. - -Mr. REDLICH. Has she discussed the amount of contributions with you? - -Mr. MARTIN. I have kept her informed all along on it. - -Mr. REDLICH. Has she indicated that there is some relationship between -the story that she reveals to the public and the contributions which -she will receive? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Would you be more specific about that? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, she has read newspaper articles, for instance, that I -haven't written but I have directed. - -Mr. REDLICH. Directed? - -Mr. MARTIN. By giving them information. - -Mr. REDLICH. What is the nature---- - -Mr. MARTIN. To build it up. - -Mr. REDLICH. What is the nature of these articles? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, I recall one, I wonder if I have it, I guess I don't -have it, that was written by Bill Burrus of the Times Herald in Dallas. -It was a very good article, and not quite true, we will say. It is -shaded in truth. - -Mr. REDLICH. Do you have the article with you? - -Mr. MARTIN. Here is one Bill Burrus did that is when she went to -midnight mass. - -Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin has submitted to the Commission an article -which does not carry a date or the name of the publication in which it -appears, but is headed "Marina Oswald attended mass, had quiet Yule", -by Bill Burrus. - -Mr. MARTIN. That was the Dallas Times Herald. - -Mr. REDLICH. Since we would like to question the witness about this, -I would like to label it Commission Exhibit No. 326 and ask it be -introduced in evidence. - -Mr. DULLES. It will be admitted with no objection. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 326 for -identification and received in evidence.) - -Mr. REDLICH. I hand you Commission Exhibit 326, Mr. Martin. Will you -tell us in what respects this article is not true? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, I wouldn't say it is strictly not true. But it -embellishes the truth. - -Mr. REDLICH. Could you be specific in terms of references to the -particular article? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, for instance, let's see, is this where she went to -church? - -Mr. DULLES. Did she go to church? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. LEECH. It is my partner's church. - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, for instance, "she wandered around the secret -quarters for long periods of time, sometimes she listened to Christmas -carols over radio or television", which I believe is not true. I don't -believe I told that; that was just added in there. - -"Marina continued her studies of the English language and watched -television, including her favorite Steve Allen show". She doesn't even -like Steve Allen. And, of course, she is never studying English. - -Mr. DULLES. Was this information that you gave to Mr. Burrus? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. That is the trouble with newspapers. I have told Bill -Burrus that she watches Steve Allen. She does but just for lack of -anything else to do. - -Now I didn't say anything about the Christmas carols nor about studying -the English language. - -Mr. DULLES. You say she has not been studying the English language? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, she is learning it quite rapidly because she had to in -her own defense in order to converse with people. When she was living -with us, there was no one there that spoke Russian so she had to learn -English in order to converse. - -Mr. DULLES. Is there anything else in this particular article that you -would either regard as unslanted or untrue? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. DULLES. Could you give us other examples where---- - -Mr. MARTIN. There is the first one. - -Mr. DULLES. If you are planning to comment on that I would like to -introduce it in evidence. - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. This will go with it. - -Mr. REDLICH. The witness has submitted to the Commission an article -appearing in the Dallas Times Herald on Sunday, December 15, 1963, -the headline reading, "Marina Oswald, all the pity in the world won't -help", written by Bill Burrus. This has now been marked as Commission -Exhibit No. 327, and I ask that it be admitted in evidence. - -Mr. DULLES. This will be admitted, if there is no objection. - -(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 327 for -identification and received in evidence.) - -Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I hand you Commission Exhibit No. 327 and ask -you to tell the Commission in what respects if any there is material in -this article which you regard as untrue or exaggerated or slanted? - -Mr. MARTIN. Here is a sentence in here, "She pores over the letters -reaching her more than a thousand so far and is choked with emotion -by the compassion and support they express", the only thing she did -actually was to open the letters and did not open all of them. The only -letters she read or attempted to read were ones written in Russian. - -Mr. REDLICH. What was her reaction to those letters? - -Mr. MARTIN. Acceptance of it but no real thankfulness. The further it -went, the longer it went, it seemed the less she cared whether---- - -Mr. DULLES. Did Burrus get this slanted material from you? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall anything she specifically said in response -to these letters that is leading you to the conclusion that you have -reached? - -Mr. MARTIN. That she specifically said? - -Mr. REDLICH. Yes. - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, for instance, one day she opened a letter and there -was a dollar in it and she said, "Oh, a dollar", and threw it on the -table, and there are little things that living as closely as we did, -you can't really recall the specific incidents but there is a general -feeling, and there is a complete lack of compassion as to what all -these people are doing for her or trying to do for her. - -Mr. REDLICH. But you can't recall anything specific that she said which -would indicate this lack of compassion? - -Mr. MARTIN. No, other than "the American people are crazy for sending -me that money". - -Mr. REDLICH. Is that a quotation from Mrs. Oswald? She said the -American people are crazy for sending this money? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did she elaborate on it? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did you reply to that? - -Mr. MARTIN. I told her that they felt sorry for her and she didn't say -anything. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did she make any other comments of that nature? - -Mr. MARTIN. Other than that dollar bill. Those are the only ones I can -remember specifically. - -Mr. REDLICH. Would you continue your examination of Commission Exhibit -No. 327? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, let's see, "unlike her husband, Marina is devout. -She is a member of the Greek Orthodox Church", that is not true. She -was not a devout Greek orthodox. She was not devout anything so far as -religion is concerned. - -Mr. DULLES. Did she ever say anything about the baptism of her child in -that church to you? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, now let's see, she was supposed to have gotten June -baptized without her husband's knowledge. - -Mr. REDLICH. You say she was supposed to have, where did you get that -information? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, I read it somewhere prior to this article. This -article has it in there. I didn't give him this information. He got it -from some other article, and I recall reading it. And when she read -this, she commented on it. She said he did know that June was being -baptized. - -Mr. REDLICH. Did she read that? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. In English? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. She knew English well enough to read this? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. It took her a while to read it. - -Mr. REDLICH. I would like to call the attention---- - -Mr. MARTIN. This is December 15. - -Mr. REDLICH. I would like to call the attention of the Commission to -the date which is Sunday, December 15. You say as of Sunday, December -15, which is a little over 3 weeks after she came to live with you, -Mrs. Oswald knew English well enough to be able to read this and -understand it? - -Mr. MARTIN. Not to read it legibly, I mean not to understand every word -of it but she understood the biggest part of the article. I was quite -amazed at how much she could read. She can't read writing or says she -can't, but she can read printing or typing. - -Here is another one now, "she is poring over children's primary readers -and studying the Russian-English dictionary attempting to understand -all the words and talk about her." - -She had one child's book that one of the Secret Service men brought -her, and she looked at it and that was the end of that. - -Mr. REDLICH. Where did this information appearing in this story come -from? Did you tell that to Mr. Burrus? - -Mr. MARTIN. Yes. - -Mr. REDLICH. When Mrs. Oswald read this story and saw things that were -not quite true, did she discuss that fact with you? - -Mr. MARTIN. On one occasion, let's see, what was it--it may have been -in this article. Oh, yes, about the baptism. She said that Lee did know -about the baptism. This was gleaned from some place else. - -Mr. DULLES. Before or afterward? - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, she said before. Before the baptism. - -"She washes clothes for herself and June Lee, she cooks her own meals -favoring macaroni and other casserole dishes." She did not cook her own -meals. She cooked twice while she was at the house in two and a half -months. - -Mr. REDLICH. Is this fact one which you related to Mr. Burrus, the fact -she cooked her own meals? - -Mr. MARTIN. I didn't say she cooked her own meals but she cooked. - -Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall what reaction if any Mrs. Oswald had in -reading this comment? - -Mr. MARTIN. The only one she commented on was she doesn't like -macaroni, it is noodles. - -Mr. REDLICH. But Mrs. Oswald voiced no objection to your giving this -information to the newspapers which to use your expression was not -quite true? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. "Marina now has the first dish washer she has ever used -and she thinks it is wonderful". Actually, she didn't like it but now -in most of this stuff Bill Burrus would ask me a question like, "Does -she have a dish washer", and I would say "yes", and he would elaborate -on it. - -This is quite a sympathetic article. "Marina gets up at about 9 a.m. -every day." She always got up between 10 and 11. "She asked Secret -Service men to read some of the letters to her". I don't recall any -incident where she did. - -Mr. REDLICH. Was that also a fact which you gave to Mr. Burrus? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -"As the hours and days tick by Marina watches television and struggles -with newspapers. These things bring tears to her eyes, pictures of -President Kennedy, Jackie, Lee Oswald, Mrs. Tippit, the wife of the -slain police officer. Sometimes she turns off the set." That is not -true. - -Mr. REDLICH. Could you be a little bit more specific about that? Were -there instances in which she saw these people mentioned and what was -her reaction? - -Mr. MARTIN. No real reaction at all. Just there on television. - -Mr. DULLES. You started to describe earlier I think when she saw a -picture of Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy and she made certain remarks. I -don't know that we finished that. - -Mr. MARTIN. Well, yes; she did. She remarked, "Oh, Jackie, Jackie", -and that was it. There wasn't--kind of shook her head. That is in this -article, too, and that is true. - -Of course, this last paragraph, "The agents speak through curtains and -she feels hunted sometimes despite friendly letters and packages". I -don't think she has ever felt hunted or in danger. She has expressed -that opinion. She didn't feel that anyone was--anyone intended to harm -her. - -Mr. DULLES. Did she ever express any ideas about going back to the -Soviet Union? - -Mr. MARTIN. She said it once and I questioned her about it. She said -she was just--what was it--just joking. She used a funny sounding word -for joking. I don't remember what it was. - -Mr. REDLICH. Do you have any further comments with regard to this -particular exhibit? - -Mr. MARTIN. No. - -Mr. REDLICH. I suggest this would be a good time for recess, Mr. -Chairman. - -Mr. DULLES. All right. The Commission will be adjourned until 3 p.m., -this afternoon. - -Would you report with your counsel at that time? - -(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) - - - - -Transcriber's Notes: - - -Punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant -preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed. - -Misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be -due to mispronunciations were not changed. - -Some simple typographical errors were corrected. - -Inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained. - -Ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained. - -Occasional uses of "Mr." for "Mrs." and of "Mrs." for "Mr." corrected. - -Dubious repeated words, (e.g., "What took place by way of of -conversation?") retained. - -Several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied. - -Occasional periods that should be question marks not changed. - -Occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be -periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at -the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at -the beginning of a line). Some commas and semi-colons were printed so -faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and -corrected, but some almost certainly remain. - -The Index and illustrated Exhibits volumes of this series may not be -available at Project Gutenberg. - -Pages ix-xi: A three-page list of Exhibit numbers has been omitted from -this eBook. - -Page 20: "Mrs. Oswald. No, I don't remember that Lee had just" probably -should have a period after "that". - -Page 20: "Mr. Rankin. Did our husband" probably should be "your". - -Page 139: "No, she will probably be home in time to fix my supper?" -probably should end with a period instead of a question mark. - -Page 176: Spurious quotation mark removed before "The money that came -into my home that" - -Page 245: Missing closing quotation mark for: 'I said "No, Reverend -Saunders,' - -Page 297: "And you worked at the A. & P. during this period?" changed -to "A&P" for consistency with other occurrences of that abbreviation. - -Page 344: "copy for the original. I will undertake" The period probably -should be a comma. - - - - - - - -End of the Project Gutenberg EBook of Warren Commission (1 of 26): Hearings -Vol. I (of 15), by The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - -*** END OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK WARREN COMMISSION - HEARINGS V1 *** - -***** This file should be named 44001-8.txt or 44001-8.zip ***** -This and all associated files of various formats will be found in: - http://www.gutenberg.org/4/4/0/0/44001/ - -Produced by Curtis Weyant, Charlene Taylor, Charlie Howard, -and the Online Distributed Proofreading Team at -http://www.pgdp.net. 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